From: owner-h-costume-digest (H-Costume Digest) To: h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Subject: H-Costume Digest V4 #79 Reply-To: h-costume Sender: owner-h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Errors-To: owner-h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Precedence: bulk H-Costume Digest Monday, March 25 1996 Volume 4, Number 79 Compilation copyright (C) 1996 Diane Barlow Close and Gretchen Miller Use in whole prohibited. Individual articles are the property of the author. Seek permission from that author before reprinting or quoting elsewhere. Important Addresses: Send submissions to: h-costume@lunch.engr.sgi.com (or reply to this message). Adds/drops/archives: majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com Real, live person: h-costume-request@andrew.cmu.edu Topics: Re: 1400 Houpelaunde houppelandes Re: Costume Society Re: Newsletter on Costuming asbestos Re: Kinsale Cloak Pattern What is a Jacques Doucet? Re: Basses, 1480's Italian - anyone done it? Re: 1400 Houpelaunde patterns/cloaks Re: Basses, 1480's Italian - anyone done it? Re: H-Costume Digest V4 #77 Re: What is a Jacques Doucet? Shapes in Importance of Earnest Re: Lilies & Excerpts H-Costume Digest V4 #78 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 23 Mar 1996 10:50:34 -0500 From: Ladnier@aol.com Subject: Re: 1400 Houpelaunde In my first historic Costuming class we were taught that they were cartridge pleats. According to "Survey of Historic Costume" Second Edition: Houppelandes were fitted across the shoulders, then full from that point. From 1410 to 1440, fullness was arranged all around the body with an equal number of pleats (often two) spaced at the front, back, and each side. After 1440, fullness was concentrated at the front and back; garments were smooth at the sides. Although the houppelande closed down the front, the fastening was generally not visible. Sleeve styles were either open or closed at the cuff. Open styles included: wide funnel (stylish until 1450), plain cylinder, often lined in contrasting colored fabric and turned back at the wrist. Closed styles included: bagpipe shape (exceedingly popular after 1410)-widened from the shoulder to form a full, hanging pouch below a tight cuff. After 1445, there were these changes: Sleeve caps were given increased height by small pleats. Sleeves narrowed somewhat, tapering to the wrist. Hanging sleeves had either wide or tight-fitting wrist with an opening above the elbow for the arm. The rest of the sleeve then hung down, behind the arm. Collar Variations: High standing collar, usually open at the front to form a sort of winged effect. Flat, turned down around a round or v-shaped neckline. All the above was quoted from the book. Penny E. Ladnier Virginia Commonwealth University s0peladn@cabell.vcu.edu ------------------------------ Date: 23 Mar 96 11:41:02 EST From: Michael Percival <101610.1063@compuserve.com> Subject: houppelandes Hi Renee Firstly, most of what follows applies to English costume of that period and not for what was current on mainland Europe at the time. You are asking about houppelandes in the reign of Henry IV and in particular late in the reign. I have made a houppelande for the early years of this reign (and there are one or two changes in style in the fourteen years he was on the throne). It is made out of dark red velvet and has enormous funnel type sleeves. Believe me it is not a gown that I would choose to wear for a long time particularly on a hot day. It is very heavy and I am a small person in just about every dimension. Having checked my notes on the style and from what I can remember when I made my version, the gathers are produced by belting what is actually a loose fitting and very full garment. I usually belt my gown and then arrange the gathers evenly with some help from people for the back. Mine is sixteen foot around the hem (or 5 metres) and I do not think it is full enough. As you say the belt (for the ladies only) is very high waisted (more or less under the bust) and I would recommend that you make sure it fits fairly tightly otherwise you run the risk of it slipping. The houppelandes for men of this period were belted lower, around waist level. Dagging was still 'in' in this reign, but was more commonly used amongst men than women. There are certainly examples of dagging other than the square one you describe - a V shaped one, for example. I'm sure I have seen a picture somewhere of the dagging you describe but I cannot find it at the moment and I am not sure whether it was this reign or a later one. Dagging did not begin to go out until the reign of Henry V and did not disappear until the reign of Henry VI. In the early part of Henry IV's reign the collars were high up the neck (to the jaw line) and usually left undone; by the end of the reign this had progressed into the collar of the gown being laid flat on the shoulders. The large ' additional' collar I think you are describing was in at around this period and I have a picture of one before me. It is in a manuscript illumination (English School) which shows Chaucer reciting before an audience (c.1400). The figure is facing away but from the level (and type) of belt I would guess it to be a man; there is another man with the same type of collar in the background. In both instances these additional collars (which are coloured gold) are worn with the high necked houppelande. There are several women shown, none of them wear this type of additional ornamental collar although one does wear what I would guess to be a gold SS collar which became popular in this reign. (The book I am taking this from, incidentally is 'The Visual History of Costume' by A. Ribeiro and V. Cumming publ. Batsford. It is shown on colour plate 1). Hope this is of some use. Contact me direct if you want any more info. Maggie ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Mar 96 14:19:25 -0500 From: "Augusta, Karen" Subject: Re: Costume Society - -- [ From: Augusta, Karen * EMC.Ver #2.5.02 ] -- - -------- REPLY, Original message follows -------- Date: Thursday, 23-Mar-95 10:55 PM I was wondering, does anyone here know what is required to become a member of a national or statewide costumer's group? I know there is one major one but I cannot remember the name of it. Noelle, The Costume Society of America is probably the group you mean. They are devoted to the study of original, historic costume. To become a member contact: The Costume Society of America P.O. Box 73 Earlville, MD. 21919 PH - 410-275-2329 Fax - 410-275-8936 ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Mar 1996 14:47:44 -0500 From: DELTAYLOR@aol.com Subject: Re: Newsletter on Costuming In a message dated 96-03-22 01:23:50 EST, cooper@intellisys.net (Ruth Cooper) writes: >I too would be interested in a newsletter on costuming. If anyone has >information on the RENAISSANCE MAGAZINE (i.e. ordering, sample copies) I >would appreciate it. I would also be interested in such a newsletter. My paper pile can always use a few new entries. I appreciate all the knowledgeable people who post on this list. My keeper file now covers two discs. Thank you to the ones who have knowledge and take the time to share it with those of us who are learning. Dianne in TN ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Mar 96 09:01:00 CST From: Mickie Erickson Subject: asbestos I've lurked long enough, & I just had to speak out... This isn't exactly costume related, but the talk of asbestos' history reminded me.. My mother had a Disney book from the forties, I believe, about how the Mouse family inherited an old lodge in the Rocky Mountains (I think). During the course of the book, the Mouse children at one point were in one of the rooms and played in a large pile of "Rock Wool". One of them commented that it made her nose tickle. Just imagine, thirty years later, the obituary about all the poor little Mouse children expiring from lung cancer caused by asbestos... BTW, I also remember a comment (somewhere) about how the Chinese were among the first to exploit asbestos as a cloth fiber. Tom (at) Mickie (at) DSI (Opinions listed above have nothing whatsoever to do with anybody else) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Mar 1996 12:57:10 -0800 (PST) From: Dianne Karp Subject: Re: Kinsale Cloak Pattern There is a store here in Reno that is selling Folkware patterns. If you are interested in writing/calling them, let me know. Dianne On Wed, 20 Mar 1996, Dona Walzer wrote: > I am looking for a Kinsale cloak pattern for Lincoln's New Salem State > Historic Site in Illinois. It was sold through Past Patterns and Amazon as > a Harper House No. S207. It is no longer being distributed, and the village > needs a copy. > > Does anyone know where I can get the pattern? > > Dona_Walzer@wiu.edu > ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Mar 1996 18:18:35 -0800 From: gwjchris@ix.netcom.com (Bill and Glenna Christen) Subject: What is a Jacques Doucet? A friend asked me to check my sources for an explaination of a term she had encountered in "Vintage Fashions & Fabrics" by Pamela Smith. She doesn't have the book now, but she said it refered to an article of clothing from the 1850's. It refered to outerwear and it was also known as "Nouveautes (accent on last e) Confectionnees (accent on the next to the last e)". In the 1860's it apparently became associated with women's underpinnings! It's all news to me. Does anyone know anything about this garment? Glenna Jo Christen LHS, LSFS & MSAS gwjchris@ix.netcom.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Mar 1996 20:57:53 -0800 (PST) From: Heather Rose Jones Subject: Re: Basses, 1480's Italian - anyone done it? On Fri, 22 Mar 1996, Eric Praetzel wrote: > I've decided to finally cut into some of my fabric purchases and make > a set of basses. > That is a skirt of about 25" length made from alternating fabrics that > has a heavy fabric lining as well as about 1/2" padding. I'm using > 44 stripes that go from 1" at the top to 4" at the bottom (about 15' > circumferance). ... > Suggestions? My strongest suggestion is to get your hands on a copy of Blanche Payne's "History of Costume", which has a pattern draft and description of an early 16th century bases. It may not correspond exactly to the earlier Italian styles, but a least it's a good place to start from. I believe Payne's book is currently in print. Heather Rose Jones ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Mar 1996 01:13:33 -0500 From: margritt@mindspring.com (Margritte) Subject: Re: 1400 Houpelaunde At 12:32 AM 3/23/96, Renee Simard wrote: >Greetings all, > >I have a couple of questions about a 1413 Houpelaunde (snip) >Finally, most of the paintings show the sleeve edges either as plain, >trimmed with a tassle like trim or with square like daggs. I really like >the look of "oak leaf" daggs but cannot find a single picture that >validates them. Are they just "Holywood" versions of the sleeve edges? The book: Heraldry: Sources, Symbols, and Meaning, by Ottfried Neubecker has a picture on page 67 of a statue of a kneeling knight with a dagged surcoat (surcoat isn't really the word I want, but it's cloth over armor). Anyway, there are oakleaf dagges at the sleeves and hemline, detailed enough that you can see the veins of the leaves, apparently stitched into the dags. Doesn't give an exact date, but sometime during the Crusades. Good luck! - -Margritte - ------------------------------------------------------------ Gryphon's Moon - Request our free catalog of Celtic jewelry. email margritt@mindspring.com or check out our web page at http://www.mindspring.com/~maclain/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Mar 1996 02:08:58 -0500 From: NeenH@aol.com Subject: patterns/cloaks For very nice 18thC cloak, clothes, corsets, etc, see "Tidings from the 18th Century" by Beth Gilgun. It's an interesting, easy read, with good patterns. The super simple child's frock that has an ugly picture is lovely when made up in wool. I was amazed at how good it looked on a live child after seeing just the photo in the book. For lots and lots of patterns, see Smoke and Fire catalog, or Tidy's Storehouse catalog, or Jas. Townsend & Son catalog. I think one of them carries Folkwear Patterns (makers of Kinsale Cloak pattern). They have multiple patterns for stays, bodices, gowns, men's, kids...My local cloth stores will all order Folkwear patterns for you. I have a old red wool Kinsale cloak that a friend made and didn't like, that I started wearing to camp, and was planning to replace with something more authentic at the first opportunity, but I recieved so many compliments and reasurances of authenticity, that I'm not going to! Warning about patterns...many are clearly drafted by amatures. Be careful with fitting before cutting out expensive cloth...put together any linings (cheap muslin linings!) first, to check fit and how the pieces fit together! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Mar 1996 03:35:19 -0500 (EST) From: Judy Gerjuoy Subject: Re: Basses, 1480's Italian - anyone done it? On Sun, 24 Mar 1996, Heather Rose Jones wrote: > My strongest suggestion is to get your hands on a copy of Blanche Payne's > "History of Costume", which has a pattern draft and description of an > early 16th century bases. It may not correspond exactly to the earlier > Italian styles, but a least it's a good place to start from. I believe > Payne's book is currently in print. Unfortunately my copy is packed (I am moving the end of this month) so I can't physically verify this, but I am pretty sure that the reissue of Blanche Payne's History of Costume, does *not* have the patterns in the back. The first edition, which is out of print *does* have them - the second which is *greatly* expanded and corrected, does not. Jaelle/Judy jaelle@access.digex.net If the world were merely seductive, that would be easy. If it were merely challenging, that would be no problem. But I arise in the morning torn between a desire to improve the world, and a desire to enjoy the world. This makes it hard to plan the day. - E. B. White ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Mar 1996 06:29:45 -0800 From: DTJacobson@aol.com Subject: Re: H-Costume Digest V4 #77 In a message dated 96-03-21 15:10:59 EST, Morghana@aol.com writes: >>...Have you checked out the new RENAISSANCE magazine...?<< RENAISSANCE is a brand-new publication (the first issue came out in January, 1996). It is planned for a quarterly publication schedule, and is primarily 14-16th centuries. The list of articles spans a wide spectrum: everything from how to NOT look like a Turkey at Faire, to Living History information available on the Internet, to cooking with qunices. Single copies are available for $3.95 from: Phantom Press 5A Green Meadow Drive Nantucket, MA 02554 >>However, a newsletter whose sole purpose is costume recreation would be a definite appeal to me.<< The International Costumers Guild (ICG) publishes a periodic journal, the _Costumer's Quarterly_. It is published separately from the regular ICG chapter newsletters (in the same fashion that TI is published separately from a kingdom newsletter). To obtain more information, please contact their editor: Cat Devereaux P.O. Box 94538 Pasadena, CA 91109 71053.3651@CompuServe.com The Costumer's quarterly's content varies with the material the editors have to publish, so it can vary from very historical to Science Fiction/Fantasy. Now, if someone wants to start a _new_ newsletter, specifically for historical costuming, that will span a _broad_ period (including 19th and early 20th century clothing), and is offered for a price similar to other mass-marketed newsletters and magazines, I'd be willing to subscribe. Who knows, I _might_ even be willing to submit an article or two (but not until after Memorial Day--I've got classes until then). Dawn T. Jacobson DTJacobson@aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Mar 1996 09:36:47 -0800 From: "R.L. Shep" Subject: Re: What is a Jacques Doucet? Bill and Glenna Christen wrote: > > A friend asked me to check my sources for an explaination of a term she > had encountered in "Vintage Fashions & Fabrics" by Pamela Smith. She > doesn't have the book now, but she said it refered to an article of > clothing from the 1850's. It refered to outerwear and it was also > known as "Nouveautes (accent on last e) Confectionnees (accent on the > next to the last e)". In the 1860's it apparently became associated > with women's underpinnings! It's all news to me. Does anyone know > anything about this garment? > > Glenna Jo Christen > LHS, LSFS & MSAS > gwjchris@ix.netcom.com According to my fashion dictionaries: Picken makes no mention, Cunnington makes no mention, Calasibetta (i.e. Fairchild's) says French fashion designer and under that listing shows that he had one of the first fashion houses is Paris (mid-19th Century) in competition with Worth. His grandson started his career after the Franco-Prussion War (1870) and apprenticed Vionnnet & Poiret. There are no mentions of any garments of this name. R.L. Shep ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Mar 1996 17:37:49 GMT From: DEJW@cableol.co.uk Subject: Shapes in Importance of Earnest I have just finished helping costume a production of Oscar Wilde's "Importance of Being Earnest". Historical costume accuracy was not a priority, but we did have some discussions about the shape of Cecily and Gwendolen. C wore an all purpose historical corset, and G wore a modern basque. Some claimed that the two had shapes like 1890 fashionable women, others said current day comfort prevented anything like the contemporary wasp waist. The basque, although very shaping, did not look quite right for 1890. I looked up a few references and found N Waugh "Corsets and Crinolines" to say that 19C curves can only be achieved "through a lifetime of tightlacing". L Barton in "Hist Cost for the Stage" says that in the late 19C "Too many 36 busts were getting into 18 waists". Wow ! Some reenactors today claim they totally recreate the 19C look and shape, and claim they do not lace very tighly. Does modern theater fail to get the real 1890 shape ? Debbie ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Mar 1996 09:41:22 -0800 From: nbeattie@mail.inlink.com (Nancee Beattie) Subject: Re: Lilies & Excerpts H-Costume Digest V4 #78 This is Meredydd. I'm still not on the list, but a friend forwarded this message to me: Renee Simard writes: > >I have a couple of questions about a 1413 Houpelaunde (I think that is >how it is spelled). I hope that someone from this list can assist me. > >I have been looking at a number of paintings from that time period and >seen the same dress in many forms. The questions I have are these: > >Many appear to have gathers in the front and back into the belted >"waist" (really more like the rib cage). Would these have been >"cartridge pleats" and it not what type would have been used? If I put >these into my design do I add them so they begin at the neck line or >should they in essance come to a point below the actual neck? Please, my lady, don't pleat your houppeland! All you need to do is belt it. When you tighten the belt, arrange the gathers so they are evenly spaced. This will be much easier than pleating, and much more historically accurate. I have seen many examples of unbelted houppelands showing that they are in no way pleated. To touch on another subject on this list, an unbelted houppeland makes great maternity garb. > >Several pictures show a style of embelished collar that appears to be >added over top of the dress. Some are drappped over a shoulder in a >baldric fashion. I can never seem to find a detailed enough picture of >these but would like to have on for my dress? Any suggestions on what >they might actually be? Cloth? jewelry on cloth? > You can also find chokers on the later-period cotehardies that are contemporary to houppelands. I suspect the collar or choker was jewelry--made of metal and gems. However, the baldric looks like it might be fabric (and tassels and fringe). I've also seen these baldrics made of a strand of beads, worn singly or in multiples. It might help to pin these to the shoulder to keep them from falling off. >Finally, most of the paintings show the sleeve edges either as plain, >trimmed with a tassle like trim or with square like daggs. I really >like the look of "oak leaf" daggs but cannot find a single picture that >validates them. Are they just "Holywood" versions of the sleeve edges? I've seen dags in a variety of designs. Go nuts. BTW, how do you subscribe to this list? Meredydd Editor of Tournaments Illuminated Companion of the Laurel Mommy of Owen (taking those first crucial steps towards real walking) ------------------------------ End of H-Costume Digest V4 #79 ****************************** A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, send the command lines: unsubscribe h-costume-digest subscribe h-costume end in the body of a message to majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com. Thanks and enjoy the list!