From: owner-h-costume-digest (H-Costume Digest) To: h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Subject: H-Costume Digest V4 #80 Reply-To: h-costume Sender: owner-h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Errors-To: owner-h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Precedence: bulk H-Costume Digest Tuesday, March 26 1996 Volume 4, Number 80 Compilation copyright (C) 1996 Diane Barlow Close and Gretchen Miller Use in whole prohibited. Individual articles are the property of the author. Seek permission from that author before reprinting or quoting elsewhere. Important Addresses: Send submissions to: h-costume@lunch.engr.sgi.com (or reply to this message). Adds/drops/archives: majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com Real, live person: h-costume-request@andrew.cmu.edu Topics: Re: patterns Re: patterns Tent cleaning Re: patterns Re: basses and houppelandes Re: Tent cleaning Re: patterns Re: ACW corset fitting Re: ACW corset fitting re: tent cleaning Re: Tent cleaning Re: ACW corset fitting Felt hat blanks Re: Tent cleaning ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 25 Mar 1996 09:49:22 -0800 (PST) From: erin1@uclink4.berkeley.edu (Erin Harvey Moody) Subject: Re: patterns >To: bednarek@tidalwave.med.ge.com (Dennis Bednarek Mfg 4-6971 ~BHOSVWZ#097) >From: erin1@uclink4.berkeley.edu (Erin Harvey Moody) >Subject: Re: paterns > >Dennis, AlterYears, Lacis, and Amazon Dry Goods carries "Past Patterns" lines which have historical corset and underpinning patterns. Their addresses are in the FAQ I believe. > >Although Past Patterns make the best commercial patterns our there for this, there are significant problems with their patterns if you are looking for historoically accurate construction and good fit. Also, there are no good underpinning (chemise, camisol, conbinations, drawers, corset covers) patterns out there in my opinion. > >Erin Moody > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Mar 1996 13:16:11 -0600 (CST) From: Elizabeth Coffey Subject: Re: patterns On Mon, 25 Mar 1996, Erin Harvey Moody wrote: > > > >Although Past Patterns make the best commercial patterns our there for > this, there are significant problems with their patterns if you are looking > for historoically accurate construction and good fit. Also, there are no > good underpinning (chemise, camisol, conbinations, drawers, corset covers) > patterns out there in my opinion. > > > >Erin Moody > > > I have been using various Past Patterns corsets patterns in workshops for several years and have rarely found any difficulty in fitting the garments (and corsets do require individual fittings) or in understanding the extensive historical notes and construction techniques. I have personally worn the corded stay for several years with no difficulty. I am wondering what difficulties you have found with the fit and the historical accuracy?. I had the opportunity a few years ago to study the original of one of the patterns (sensible stay) and found the pattern produces an accurate copy of the original. Past Patterns also produces a chemise and drawer pattern that are comfortable and easy to make. (Although I will admit the chemise is too short for my personal taste, it is easily lengthened.) Elizabeth Coffey ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Mar 96 14:53:12 PST From: ches@tristero.io.com Subject: Tent cleaning Can anyone tell me if it is possible to get a tent dry cleaned? I no longer have a yard to clean one out on and the cat that is now gone went all over it. What are my options? Ciao @}\ Ches @}----`--,-- http://www.io.com/~ches/ @}/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Mar 1996 13:10:23 -0800 (PST) From: erin1@uclink4.berkeley.edu (Erin Harvey Moody) Subject: Re: patterns I understand that Past Patterns claims that their patterns are based on actual garments which I do not controvert. However, I have done extensive research in this area, studied many actual pieces in museum collections, and own a decent collection of garments from the period myself. I find Past Patterns and construction instructions to be atypical of the periods they represent. They are, however the best *commercial* patterns available. Also, my personal approach to corsetry is to achieve the correct "silhouette" of the period, not specific measurements or malformations (shape vs distorating the figure). I can't remeber the specific names and pattern numbers of the corsets on hand but here it goes: The gusseted 1860ish corset has you leave the last few inches in the back attached. This is not typical and very difficult for re-entactors to put on and off alot. The majority of the corsets from that period I studied were open and laceable all the way down the back. That pattern is also more suitable for those with long torsos, and a small to medium bust. Even though it is based on a corset from the 1860s, I find that more often than not, people who have made it and wear it for 1860s costumes look more like an 1880s silhouette. The 1860s silhuoette is shorter waisted and the bustline more low-slung/funnel shaped than that corset produces. It sould be a very good starting place for people wanting to make an 1880s gown. The mid century? 6 piece symmetrical corset (sorry, can't remember the number) runs extremely large. This is a very good pattern and the shape is correct for 1860-78, and 1890s. It is better suited for medium to short waisted people, and medium to large bust. The construction instructions do not correspond with any period corsets I have examined. The casings for the boning creates horrible ridges on the outside of the corset. A smooth line should be achieved in any corset, this instruction is counterproductive. Basically a good pattern with not so great construction techniques. All their corset patterns leave out the very important bone that goes underneath the front busk. This bone appears on almost all Victorian corsets I have examined and is not included in any Past Patterns instructions. I have more to say on the underpinnings but it will have to wit for another post.... Erin Moody ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Mar 1996 16:15:09 -0500 From: Gaelscot@aol.com Subject: Re: basses and houppelandes In reply to two questions: I am afraid I do not know how to make basses. I have a hint about how NOT to make them, though. Someone I know tried to duplicate the painting mentioned and used cotton broadcloth. She also didn't stuff or line it. This was a mistake. It was far too flimsy and drapey for the look required. I think you want something sturdy for both the lining and the top. I have seen Sir Patri du Chat Gris, Baron Carolingia (East Kingdom) wear one of the stuffed and padded skirts over armor that may be related to this. It was made out of trigger or some other firm cloth and it was definitely stuffed, it looked just like a painting. As for the houppelande, there are several theories of how to make it, and the garment went through many changes. I was taught to make it this way and the drape and fit look just like paintings: There are NO pleats, cartridge or otherwise. Make the pattern like this (on paper first): You measure the width of your shoulders and the length you want from shoulder to floor. Draw a rectangle. Then draw a semicircle with the radius being the shoulder-to-floor measurement. Cut it in half and put one half on either side of your rectangle. It will look like a semicircle with an extra, flat middle. That is the pattern for the body. You cut your neck hole in the center and your sleeve holes (just slits) from the shoulder to wherever you want them. Attach the sleeves and collar of your choice -- when you look at paintings you will find a bewildering variety of both. When you belt this garment you will find that it naturally forms the pleats seen in pictures. You can arrange them neatly so that they bunch toward the center (the most common arrangement I've found). A houppelande is NOT an inexpensive garment, unless you are very small or find a great sale! The large amount of fabric creates a sumptuous look, flattering on most people. There are other ways to make this, each with its own proponents (I have also made one more of an a-line shape, it takes less fabric and I believe I've seen paintings like it). But I've found this one EXTREMELY easy and extremely handsome! I know two people that have stenciled or block-printed heraldic devices on theirs -- smashing! Hope this information helps. Gail Finke/gaelscot@aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Mar 1996 13:41:22 -0800 (PST) From: "K. Schroeder-Laporte" Subject: Re: Tent cleaning I don't know how old these stains (smells?) are, but people who breed animals swear by a product called "Nature's Miracle" for all protein based stains. It has an enzyme which actually breaks down the urine/fecal matter (or blood or grass, etc.) and doesn't just cover up the problem. I am not sure how it will affect your tent fabric, but I have never had any problems with it damaging any fiber I've used it on. You'll probably have to re-waterproof it after you're done with it, though. Oh, you can get this stuff in any pet store. It comes in a white bottle with red writing. And no, I don't work for the company, I just REALLY like the product. hope this helps kat On Mon, 25 Mar 1996 ches@tristero.io.com wrote: > Can anyone tell me if it is possible to get a tent dry cleaned? I no longer have a > yard to clean one out on and the cat that is now gone went all over it. What are my > options? > > Ciao @}\ > Ches @}----`--,-- http://www.io.com/~ches/ > @}/ > > > > > Adelheid von Luebeck Acting Arts & Sciences College of St. Bunstable http://weber.u.washington.edu/~stareyed/bunstable/bunstable.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Mar 1996 15:38:36 -0600 (CST) From: "Phaedra M. Williams" Subject: Re: patterns Just a question: Can you mail-order patterns from Past Patterns? I've never seen them sold anywhere. Just wondering. Thanks! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Mar 1996 15:47:56 -0600 (CST) From: Deb Subject: Re: ACW corset fitting Erin said of Past Patterns corset patterns: >The mid century? 6 piece symmetrical corset (sorry, can't remember the >number) runs extremely large. This is a very good pattern and the shape is >correct for 1860-78, and 1890s. It is better suited for medium to short >waisted people, and medium to large bust. .... I believe this is the corset I made up. I am short - 5'3" (I wonder if I am NOT short waisted?). I am also used to wearing 1770's corsets, and not 1870's corsets. I am used to a corset which supports my breasts. The 1870's one doesn't come anywhere near my breasts, when I cinch it where the soft spots of my tummy are. I am inclined to hitch it upwards about 2 inches, so that it supports my bust -- but then the cinch part is closer to rib cage, and not the soft bits. Should I have altered the pattern (lengthed it?) or is this how it is supposed to fit? Am I expecting the wrong things from an 1870's corset (bust support)? Or does it fit wrong? Deb Baddorf baddorf@fnal.gov Not that I have anywhere to wear it (I do RevWar) but I wanted one anyway!! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Mar 1996 16:20:22 -0700 (MST) From: cwood@primenet.com Subject: Re: ACW corset fitting >Erin said of Past Patterns corset patterns: >>The mid century? 6 piece symmetrical corset (sorry, can't remember the >>number) runs extremely large. This is a very good pattern and the shape is >>correct for 1860-78, and 1890s. It is better suited for medium to short >>waisted people, and medium to large bust. .... Deb said: >I believe this is the corset I made up. I am short - 5'3" (I wonder >if I am NOT short waisted?). I am also used to wearing 1770's >corsets, and not 1870's corsets. I am used to a corset which >supports my breasts. The 1870's one doesn't come anywhere near >my breasts, when I cinch it where the soft spots of my tummy are. >I am inclined to hitch it upwards about 2 inches, so that it >supports my bust -- but then the cinch part is closer to rib cage, >and not the soft bits. Should I have altered the pattern >(lengthed it?) or is this how it is supposed to fit? > >Am I expecting the wrong things from an 1870's corset (bust support)? >Or does it fit wrong? > >Deb Baddorf baddorf@fnal.gov > >Not that I have anywhere to wear it (I do RevWar) but I >wanted one anyway!! > You are speaking of Past Patterns 213, correct? If so, I tried making this pattern up several months ago and had terrible problems with it. The instructions were confusing and inadequate. Erin Moody gave me a lot of helpful advice in fitting the corset and I finally got a mockup made, but discovered the same problem you did--that it didn't really support my bust very well. When I had the chemise on underneath that did add some support, but in photos of that time period I have looked at, women's busts seemed, well the best way I can put it is more firm than the look you get with just a chemise covering the top half of your breasts. I admit that I too am rather short--5 feet 1 (okay not rather short, I AM short!) so perhaps that is the problem. Or perhaps I too made it wrong--a possiblity, or perhaps women in the 19th century weren't commonly as large busted as some of us are today (I wear a 36 C bra?) or I don't know what! I remain confused. Also Erin--if you don't think there are any good patterns out there for underpinnings, do you have any suggestions as to what would be second best for those who need underpinnings but don't have the expertise to make up our patterns from originals??? Ysabeau ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Mar 1996 17:52:47 -0800 (PST) From: Kimberly Smay Subject: re: tent cleaning Do not dry-clean youre tent. As has been mentioned on this list numerous times dry-cleaning is terrible for fabric much less any special coatings like gore-tex. Backpacker magazine suggests washing in the washing machine with a mild soap. Detergents, esp liquid ones, screw up the water-proofing too much. You'll still need to re-do the water-proofing and check your seam seal. K Smay ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Mar 1996 23:03:17 -0700 (MST) From: Renee/Faustyna Subject: Re: Tent cleaning Dear Ches i have been in this very predicament. There are a couple of options. Is there a friends yard you can use for a day or two? Since I don't know waht part of the country you live in you might also look for someones garage to set it up in while it has to dry. (Duct tape rocks to the points where the pegs would have to be driven into the ground!) It may be possible to find an industrial type cleaner but check with a plAce that rents out large type tents. They have to clean theirs so they may clean yours for a fee. If claning it your slelf remember to use lots of baking soda in the water to kill the smell left behind by kitty. Good luck I hope you find the help. Renee/Faustyna On Mon, 25 Mar 1996 ches@tristero.io.com wrote: > Can anyone tell me if it is possible to get a tent dry cleaned? I no longer have a > yard to clean one out on and the cat that is now gone went all over it. What are my > options? > > Ciao @}\ > Ches @}----`--,-- http://www.io.com/~ches/ > @}/ > > > > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Mar 1996 07:36:20 -0800 (PST) From: Katy Bishop Subject: Re: ACW corset fitting > I believe this is the corset I made up. I am short - 5'3" (I wonder > if I am NOT short waisted?). I am also used to wearing 1770's > corsets, and not 1870's corsets. I am used to a corset which > supports my breasts. The 1870's one doesn't come anywhere near > my breasts, when I cinch it where the soft spots of my tummy are. > I am inclined to hitch it upwards about 2 inches, so that it > supports my bust -- but then the cinch part is closer to rib cage, > and not the soft bits. Should I have altered the pattern > (lengthed it?) or is this how it is supposed to fit? > > Am I expecting the wrong things from an 1870's corset (bust support)? > Or does it fit wrong? I have made the Past Patterns corset, #213 is I believe the one you are referring to, for many people of many different sizes and shapes. It works best, and is most comfortable, for women who are naturally hour glass shaped. It also corresponds in construction and silhouette to corsets from the 1860's and '70's that I have seen (there was an especially good selection at the "Waist Not" exhibit at the MET in New York , unfortunately no photographs or decent catalogue are available). It is shorter than many corsets from the 1880's and '90's, where the line is generally, but not always, longer. It also helps support the bust fairly well. I am 5' 2" with a 36 C bust and I find it gives me good support, enough to do a polka. I do add about an inch in extra length to the corset. The trick is to put on the corset loosely, then pull the chemise down so the fabric is taught over the shoulders and breasts, perhaps even pushing them into the top of the corset. Then you tighten the corset. This also helps eliminate the shelf effect of having the bust extend out over the top of the corset. I feel this is how one gets the properly rounded period silhouette, as it is the chemise that does the supporting. For those who want to compress the waist the trick is to tighten the corset until it is snug, wait 10-20 minutes, and then tighten it again, this gives the wearer time to get used to breathing above the corset, and it can be tightened 1-2 inches. I don't do this myself because I don't believe tight lacing is necessary. I picked up the trick from a theater costumer. As far as Past Pattern patterns go, I find they are the best commercial historical patterns out there. Making historical clothing is inherently complicated, but Saundra Altman (the owner) has done thorough research before publishing her patterns so I can feel confident that the patterns I buy are historically accurate. They are especially strong in the Civil War era. It is easier of course to have some knowledge of period construction techniques before starting a garment. Another source I often use to supplement Past Patterns is the "Patterns of Fashion" books by Janet Arnold. These patterns are 1/4" scale and have been drafted directly from period garments. I generally enlarge them to full size on a copier. They are usually just the right size for me as I have 19th century proportions, but they are relatively easy to alter for taller more modern figures. A good book aimed at theater costumers is "Period Costume for Stage and Screen" by Jean Hunnisett, Players Press, 2 volumes. They have information on how to achieve period styles for the stage, so they may not always be completely historically accurate but it does have patterns in small scale for garments and undergarments. There is also good advice on fitting and undergarments. Hope this helps. Katy Bishop, Vintage Victorian vintage@netcom.com Authentic reproduction gowns of the Victorian Era. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Mar 1996 09:13 -0800 (PST) From: Catherine.Keegan@ncal.kaiperm.org Subject: Felt hat blanks Could anyone tell me where I can find felt hat 'blanks'? I know there must be a more precise term for this. I would like to experiment with steaming felt into the various odd shapes that some 15th century costume requires. I can get my husband to manufacture a hatblock and I have a decent source of dry steam (espresso makers are so handy!), but I have yet to find a source of good felt. Thanks. Catherine Keegan syscxk@ncal.kaiperm.org ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Mar 1996 09:46:20 -0800 From: "Maureen Martinez" Subject: Re: Tent cleaning Ches, You can take it to a car wash, and use the high pressure hose. However, I do caution against using harsh cleaners, or alot of scrubbing as you may remove the waterproofing or sealer. (especially when dealing with canvas pavillions). We found out the hard way that you should never really wash pavillions as you cannot replace the original water sealing. -- Thompson's water seal helps, but is not nearly as effective as pre-treated fabric. For modren tents, this may not be as big a concern as much of their water-proofing comes from the synthetic fabric itself. However, take care not to 'wear the fabric too thin'. I recommend a trying a 'pet deodorizer' which are available at many grocery stores and pet supply stores. (You can also get some that have scents to keep your cat from repeating the incident!) Good luck! Jenny Winslow MKA Maureen Martinez ------------------------------ End of H-Costume Digest V4 #80 ****************************** A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, send the command lines: unsubscribe h-costume-digest subscribe h-costume end in the body of a message to majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com. Thanks and enjoy the list!