From: owner-h-costume-digest (H-Costume Digest) To: h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Subject: H-Costume Digest V4 #82 Reply-To: h-costume Sender: owner-h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Errors-To: owner-h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Precedence: bulk H-Costume Digest Wednesday, March 27 1996 Volume 4, Number 82 Compilation copyright (C) 1996 Diane Barlow Close and Gretchen Miller Use in whole prohibited. Individual articles are the property of the author. Seek permission from that author before reprinting or quoting elsewhere. Important Addresses: Send submissions to: h-costume@lunch.engr.sgi.com (or reply to this message). Adds/drops/archives: majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com Real, live person: h-costume-request@andrew.cmu.edu Topics: Re: Corset hardware Newsletter Update RE: Lily Magazine Lily Magazine correction Re:Norse Women's Costume Re:patterns plus questions Re: Lily Magazine misc Doucet Thank you's Re:patterns plus questions Re: Hat blocks and blanks Re: corset shapes Re: Lily Magazine - Bloomers re: tent cleaning Re: hoop skirts 2 quick questions Re: Tent cleaning typical/atypical ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 27 Mar 1996 07:08:14 -0800 From: aleed Subject: Re: Corset hardware I've heard that AlterYears, formerly known as Raiments, has an impressive array of grommets. Their phone number and address are on http://www.dnaco.net/~aleed/corsets/mailorder.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Mar 1996 09:21:46 -0600 (CST) From: Joe Lichtenstein Subject: Newsletter Update Thank you to all who responded to my initial inquiry about a newsletter on historic costume. By these responses, I've decided to start one!! I'm in the development stage right now and would like to hear any specific ideas you have for such a newsletter. I will be covering ALL time periods. Any ideas on general topics, specific articles, features, etc. etc., please send them my way. I have ideas of my own, but I want to get your input since it will be your newsletter. Also, let me know what you DON'T want to see in such a newsletter. I want to keep this costume specific. I would like to include articles on costumed events but with focus on dress. Please e-mail me with your suggestions.............THANK YOU!! If you would like to contribute an article, please send........... Lezlie Baker Historic Costume Newsletter P.O. Box 47 Grand Mound, IA 52751 Thanks again, Lezlie ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Mar 1996 10:02:59 -0600 (CST) From: "SHERYL J. NANCE" Subject: RE: Lily Magazine >I am in Richmond, Virginia. Question: Can anyone tell me where is the >closest location I can view a Crinoline Period "Lily Magazine"? Or if >someone has a copy of one, can you please fax me a few pages. Please include >the date of issue. I need this for a class. Penny, I found a reference to a temperance magazinie in the mid 1980's titled "Lily Magazine" edited by Amedlia Bloomer. If this is the magazine that you are looking for, Duke University in Durham, NC and North Carolina State University in Raleigh, NC both carry it. They are the closest ones to you that I could locate. They're about 150 miles from Richmond. If this is not the magazine that you were wanting, please let me know what kind of magazine it is & I'll try to track it down. HTH! Sheryl J. Nance ...one of the secret masters of Kansas City MO Public Library the world: a librarian. They p_sheryl@kcpl.lib.mo.us control information. Don't ever p**s one off. - Spider Robinson, _The Callahan Touch_ (Opinions expressed in this message do not reflect the viewpoint of the Kansas City MO Public Library.) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Mar 1996 10:42:04 -0600 (CST) From: "SHERYL J. NANCE" Subject: Lily Magazine correction >I found a reference to a temperance magazinie in the mid 1980's titled >"Lily Magazine" edited by Amedlia Bloomer. If this is the magazine that Sorry. I meant mid 1800's magazine. Oops. Sheryl J. Nance ...one of the secret masters of Kansas City MO Public Library the world: a librarian. They p_sheryl@kcpl.lib.mo.us control information. Don't ever p**s one off. - Spider Robinson, _The Callahan Touch_ (Opinions expressed in this message do not reflect the viewpoint of the Kansas City MO Public Library.) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Mar 1996 12:21:13 -0500 From: Mom1234693@aol.com Subject: Re:Norse Women's Costume You might check with the Society for Creative Anachronism. They have two booklets that are good. The first is The Compleat Anachronist #59: Women's Garb in Northern Europe. The second is The Compleat Anachronist #57: A Viking Miscellanea. Both are great. Also check the books: The Viking World, The Vikings, A History of the Vikings, and The Vikings by Pendlesonn. Hope this helps some. - -Shannon ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Mar 1996 12:33:11 -0500 From: RBarber854@aol.com Subject: Re:patterns plus questions first a disclaimer--I’m no expert! I have a question for all about the use of the word typical in conjunction with fashion and historical reproductions. Do all historical reproductions have to be typical? Wouldn’t some have dressed in an atypical fashion just as we do now? I know “learned” in my history of costume classes that each era had a silhouette to follow, but also that fashion began changing rapidly. Wouldn’t some have clung to the old or be bringing in the new? How is this addressed when presenting history to the public? May we only present the typical? Inquiring minds want to know, so let’s have the arguments! On another note, Barbara and Patri Pugliese mention Past Patterns upcoming Madame Foy Skirt Supporting Corset. I am only a beginning pattern maker and very interested in historical costume. I have not had a chance to dress in costume, and was wary of wearing a corset, being a comfort freak. I must say though that I now have a Madame Foy and it is very comfortable. It is side lacing which I think helps, plus the reed in the back which circles the hips sticks out just enough to support the hoop/bustle that I wear with it and puts the weight higher on the back and relieves the “drag” of all the fabric from the skirt. A boon to those with lower back problems. Just an opinion. Now for another question. I am a beginning pattern maker and costumer and would like opinions of the experts and the wearers of these fashions. What would you like me to learn and what would you like me to NOT learn? You can e-mail me direct at: RBarber854@aol.com Thanks.....Roxy Barber ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Mar 1996 09:39:26 -0800 From: "R.L. Shep" Subject: Re: Lily Magazine SHERYL J. NANCE wrote: > > >I am in Richmond, Virginia. Question: Can anyone tell me where is the > >closest location I can view a Crinoline Period "Lily Magazine"? Or if > >someone has a copy of one, can you please fax me a few pages. Please include > >the date of issue. I need this for a class. > > Penny, > I found a reference to a temperance magazinie in the mid 1980's titled > "Lily Magazine" edited by Amedlia Bloomer. If this is the magazine that > you are looking for, Duke University in Durham, NC and North Carolina > State University in Raleigh, NC both carry it. They are the closest ones > to you that I could locate. They're about 150 miles from Richmond. > > If this is not the magazine that you were wanting, please let me know what > kind of magazine it is & I'll try to track it down. > > HTH! > Sheryl J. Nance ...one of the secret masters of > Kansas City MO Public Library the world: a librarian. They > p_sheryl@kcpl.lib.mo.us control information. Don't ever > p**s one off. > - Spider Robinson, > _The Callahan Touch_ > > (Opinions expressed in this message do not reflect the viewpoint of > the Kansas City MO Public Library.) > As far as I remember from my research for my notes on both "Freaks of Fashion" and "Corsets: A Visual History", that is the magazine. Amelia Bloomer was involved in the temperance movement as well as in dress reform and she did not make much separation between the two issues. R.L. Shep ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Mar 1996 12:55:54 -0500 From: reaves@tuvok.marian.edu Subject: misc 1. Art Nouveau clothing: Someone asked for information, and here's a wonderful reprint. Mohrbutter, Alfred. JUGENSTIL: DAS KLEID DER FRAU. 1985 rpt of 1094. Darmstadt: Alexander Koch. It's the only period book I know of with models wearing the clothing of that movement. Photos of color combinations are included. 2. Elizabeth R costumes. Yes, the costumes look wonderful on the tv screen, but the real items are ghastly fakes intended to fool the camera eye and also to make the most of a limited costuming budget. I saw a display of them about 20 years ago--at Penshurst, I think-- and was astonished at the difference. 3. Welsh butter. I checked my two Celtic cookbooks and neither one mentioned Welsh butter. Perhaps that is a reference to a kind of butter considered to be purer than city products. 4. The Little Ice Age. Of course one occurred during the Renaissance. John Knox correctly blamed it (and other wrongs) on THAT MONSTROUS REGIMENT OF WOMEN--which he avoided by marrying a child. 5. Hoopskirts. This is my question to the rest of you. In the 1854 story by Mrs Gaskell, "The Cage at Cranford," the first hoopskirt reached this small village, but was clearly only a cage. Most versions today have the hoops sewn into a petticoat. Is this historically accurate? When were the cages abandoned for the hooped skirt? Read the story for humorous insight into fashion novelties. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Mar 1996 10:08:23 -0800 From: gwjchris@ix.netcom.com (Bill and Glenna Christen) Subject: Doucet Thank you's Thanks to all the helpful people who cleared up the Jaque Doucet question for my friend & I. I guess we hear so much about Mr. Worth that Mr. Doucet seems to have been overshadowed here. I really appreciate everyone's knowledge and willingness to share! Regards, Glenna Jo Christen gwjchris@ix.netcom.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Mar 1996 13:17:28 -0500 From: Kevin Richard-Morrow Subject: Re:patterns plus questions At 12:33 PM 3/27/96 -0500, you wrote: >first a disclaimer--I'm no expert! > >I have a question for all about the use of the word typical in conjunction >with fashion and historical reproductions. Do all historical reproductions >have to be typical? Wouldn't some have dressed in an atypical fashion just as >we do now? I know "learned" in my history of costume classes that each era >had a silhouette to follow, but also that fashion began changing rapidly. >Wouldn't some have clung to the old or be bringing in the new? How is this >addressed when presenting history to the public? May we only present the >typical? Inquiring minds want to know, so let's have the arguments! > Excellent point! In my 18th century role I try to aim for a 1750-60s look even when doing the 1770-80 period. There is good evidence of older styles "hanging on" in many areas of rural America. Descriptions of the Continental forces at the Saratoga surrender speak of out of date styles being worn. When speaking to the public at an event I point out that my less then fashionable garb would mark me as a "hick" in more urban areas. It is important to keep the clothing within the context of the period however. Kevin Richard-Morrow ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Mar 1996 18:25:05 +0100 From: j.w.hubbard@sheffield.ac.uk (Bill Hubbard) Subject: Re: Hat blocks and blanks >From: Catherine.Keegan@ncal.kaiperm.org >Subject: Felt hat blanks> >Could anyone tell me where I can find felt hat 'blanks'? I know there must be >a more precise term for this. I would like to experiment with steaming felt >into the various odd shapes that some 15th century costume requires. I can >get my husband to manufacture a hatblock In Britain, I believe the trade-term for these "blanks" is "hoods", which seems strange, but that is hatters for you :-) This may be the same in the States. Regarding hat blocks: The "proper" way to do them is to carve them from wood: a lot of work. I have successfully steamed hats around plaster-of-paris hat blocks covered in cling-film (USA - Seran-Wrap??). Plaster blocks can be cast around an empty margarine tub or similar to act as a filler and save plaster (and weight); then rapidly carved to shape with a sur-form (harsh wood working tool) before covering with cling-film (so the plaster doesn't absorb water or mark the felt). Quick and cheap. Regards, Bill Bill Hubbard Multimedia Development Adviser, Teaching & Learning Development Group. Level 6 University House, Sheffield University, Sheffield. S10 2TN Email j.w.hubbard@sheffield.ac.uk Telephone 0114 2826021 Fax 0114 2757311 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Mar 1996 10:27:08 -0800 From: gwjchris@ix.netcom.com (Bill and Glenna Christen) Subject: Re: corset shapes Colleen You wrote: >I have read suggestios to lace only moderately tightly, but pad the bust >and hips ...decollete, you would place the padding under, and across the front >of the breasts, just below the neckline pushing them up. I think. I was told that Godey's gave a pattern for a "bust improver" that sounds like just what you are refering to. (I haven't made the time to track this down myself as I trust the research of the woman from whom I bought it) It is basically two cresent shaped pads connected so as to look rather like a thick, stylized handlebar moustache. It recommended making the side closest to the skin of soft flannel and the other of smooth fabric to both hold it in place and absorb moisture. It does help give a little extra support so that what little I have doesn't disappear completely into my corset. The "Wonder Bra" it's not, but it does help. Glenna Jo Christen gwjchris@ix.netcom.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Mar 1996 10:55:10 -0800 From: gwjchris@ix.netcom.com (Bill and Glenna Christen) Subject: Re: Lily Magazine - Bloomers You wrote: > >>I found a reference to a temperance magazinie in the mid 1980's titled FYI... This is the magazine in which Ms. Bloomer promoted the "American Reform Dress" as a healthy sensible choice of dress for women. As a result of her promoting this style of dress it became commonly known as "The Bloomer Costume" in the early 1850's and beyond. Glenna Jo Christen gwjchris@ix.netcom.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Mar 96 13:05:28 PST From: ches@tristero.io.com Subject: re: tent cleaning Thank you everyone! I now will start using all your ideas one at a time until it works. Ciao @}\ Ches @}----`--,-- http://www.io.com/~ches/ @}/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Mar 1996 11:13:45 -0800 From: gwjchris@ix.netcom.com (Bill and Glenna Christen) Subject: Re: hoop skirts You wrote: >5. Hoopskirts. This is my question to the rest of you. In the 1854 >story by Mrs Gaskell, "The Cage at Cranford," the first hoopskirt reached >this small village, but was clearly only a cage. Most versions today have >the hoops sewn into a petticoat. Is this historically accurate? When >were the cages abandoned for the hooped skirt? Both styles were available during the mid-19th century. The first of many patents for what we refer to as cage crinolines was issued in 1857(? I'm terrible with numbers!), but there were numerous unpatented versions before that date. Very few "covered" crinolines have survived. Most likely because the fabric covering was reused once the hoops were removed. The covered crinolines commonly sold today are similar to the original covered crinolines, but that's about all. Carolanne Schmidt of the "Gentile Arts Academy" in Gettysburg, PA offers classes on cage crinolines. She gives some background on crinolines and then the students get to recreate their own cage crinoline over the course of the weekend. I've seen a number of original cages, and the one I made is comparable (considering the non-critical differences in what materials are currently available as compared to then.) Each cage is fitted to the wearer and the diameter she choses to wear. I love my new cage!!! Glenna Jo Christen gwjchris@ix.netcom.co, > > > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Mar 1996 13:51:18 -0600 (CST) From: The Jetdillo Subject: 2 quick questions Er, sorry only one this time, unfortunately off-topic. I received one of the lovely chain letters today and was trying to figure out how my name got on this guy's list...so I was wondering if anyone else here received the letter from Steve Ryder at udel.edu? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Mar 1996 14:22:31 -0600 (CST) From: aric leibl Subject: Re: Tent cleaning All this talk about tents, cleaning, and being careful about the 'water seal' makes me curious as to what people used before we had these fancy chemicals we have now. Does anyone know, or did they just get soaked? Aric Leibl ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Mar 1996 12:38:12 -0800 (PST) From: erin1@uclink4.berkeley.edu (Erin Harvey Moody) Subject: typical/atypical My point of typical vs atypical (in my post about commercial corset patterns/Past Patterns) has 2 functions. First of all, I was explaining typical as in *most prevalent* and commonly found. It is my way of politely explaining that some of the patterns were not what I found to be common/mainstream examples of corsets of the period. I was not invalidating that the patterns were indeed based on actual garments that existed for that period. Second, there were many, many types of corsets for each period but you look at so many you begin to analyze what is and is not "typical" for each period. If you cross correlate that analysis with the experience of which type of corset creates which type of silhouette, you can come up with a *reasonable* opinion of what is a "typical" respresentation of each period. As a professional corset maker, teacher, and active re-enactor I see no practical reason to deviate from the underpinnings that will give you the most commonly recognized shape for your purposes. There were corsets made specifically for hunting, but I would not recommend someone making one unless they intend to not only make a riding habit, but actually ride in the corset. It would be impractical (expensive and time consuming) to build an underpinning wardrobe of atypical garments unless you intend to make your wardrobe of atypical clothing exclusively. My recent posts about corseting were answers directed at what I believe to be questions from a beginging to intermediate sewer/costumer. People starting out in this very expensive and time consuming hobby should (IMHO) be aware of what is typical and atypical in the period they are doing before they indulge. It has been my experience that beginners are more comfortable to start from a more mainstream representation, and venture into less travelled paths as their skills and experience grow. I encourage and advocate "atypical" representations of period clothing, but for preactical purposes I do not advocate a beginner to start with their first corset (which will be the basis of their entire wardrobe) to be "atypical" unless they have a clear reason for this decision. Erin Moody ------------------------------ End of H-Costume Digest V4 #82 ****************************** A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, send the command lines: unsubscribe h-costume-digest subscribe h-costume end in the body of a message to majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com. Thanks and enjoy the list!