From: owner-h-costume-digest (H-Costume Digest) To: h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Subject: H-Costume Digest V4 #92 Reply-To: h-costume Sender: owner-h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Errors-To: owner-h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Precedence: bulk H-Costume Digest Sunday, April 14 1996 Volume 4, Number 92 Compilation copyright (C) 1996 Diane Barlow Close and Gretchen Miller Use in whole prohibited. Individual articles are the property of the author. Seek permission from that author before reprinting or quoting elsewhere. Important Addresses: Send submissions to: h-costume@lunch.engr.sgi.com (or reply to this message). Adds/drops/archives: majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com Real, live person: h-costume-request@andrew.cmu.edu Topics: Re: 1750s breeches "harem costumes" tummies Victorian definition Amadeus Rare trims-reaonable prices Re: "harem costumes" Re: "harem costumes" Zippers zippers 17th cen names for colors Re: tummies Re: H-Costume Digest V4 #91 Re: "Dress in Ireland" 19th c. women's Kimono Re: 17th cen names for colors Re: H-Costume Digest V4 #91 Middle Eastern costume ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 14:36:55 -0400 From: Kevin Richard-Morrow Subject: Re: 1750s breeches >Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 14:40:31 >To: Gretchen Miller >From: Kevin Richard-Morrow >Subject: Re: 1750s breeches > >At 02:10 PM 4/12/96 -0400, you wrote: >>> >> >>Amadeus is set in Austria--in Vienna to be exact. >> >>toodles, gretchen >> Oops, I missed the title of the play. Forget Hogarth as he is too early and too english. Go with 1770s and '80s narrow fall breeches. Tight fit in the leg, loose in the seat. Wearer should be able to do a squat without the breeches coming up over the knee. Fit waistband low, on the hips. Weskits (waistcoats) should be long enough to cover the plackets on the breeche's fall. Upper crust types would wear buckles on their knee bands. I will ask my "Goodwife" if she has anymore suggestions. Your Servant, Kevin ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 13:00:19 -0700 From: Susan Fatemi Subject: "harem costumes" sorry, I just have to get on my soapbox again. The closest actual costume to the I dream of Jeanie / Aladdin genre is Indian dance costume, these are professional dancers (another term is "nautch" dancer, don't know if that is pejoritive or not), formerly associated with temples, religious rites, etc., now frequently ladies of pleasure, unfortunately. The costume frequently included an abbreviated top (choli) and draped or sewn trousers or skirts, with a drape across the body/head. I am not an expert on Indian costume and will glandly stand correction. However, Middle Eastern women do not go around with their midriff exposed unless wearing a bathing suit in an appropriate setting. Bear in mind please that there are many countries and cultures that make up the Middle East, and what is acceptable in one, may not be in another. There are also class differences as well as individual preferences of course. There was something on CNN the other night about the ghastly situation in Afghanistan and included footage of women and children lined up to receive medical care, food, etc. Some of the women were wearing the traditional face-covering garments in varying lengths, some were wearing head shawls, with the face exposed, some just head scarves. The differences appeared to be a matter of personal or perhaps familial choice. (many of the garments and textiles were very interesting, by the way and I would gladly trade groceries for them if I could!) Also, the Western concept of what constitutes a "harem" is bizarre. In reality it refers to a "forbidden" area, either the inner part of a shrine or to the inner or women's part of the house, where the family actually lives and where the women receive visitors. The outer part of the house is where the "man of the house" conducts business, receives visitors, etc. Older sons of the house, menservants, etc. would live in the outer part. This was a wide-spread pattern thru'out the Middle East, India, China, etc. Much less observed today. The women would include the Lady of the house and any junior wives (tho' in wealthy families, each wife had her own house) also perhaps the man's widowed mother, sisters, aunts, daughters, etc. The famous "harems" of hundreds of women exist largely in the minds of westerners. The Sultans of Turkey did have such "harems", but they were stictly regulated, and in some cases the Sultan never even met some of the women. For costume references, see esp. the wonderful book "Serpent of the Nile" (sorry don't have the author handy) a history of eastern dance. It has wonderful paintings, drawings, photos, etc. of both professional dancers and ordinary women amusing themselves. Another good book is Harem: behind the veil written by a modern Turkish woman based on interviews with her older relatives. Has photos. I'm not apologizing for the practise of secluding women or any of the other restrictions put on women in any culture, but I get so tired of otherwise educated people still laboring under bizarre stereotypes of the Middle East and the Islamic world. My personal area of interest is eastern/asian costume and there is a tremendous variety, but people still think in terms of that ridiculous "harem costume" Sorry if this went on too long. Susan Fatemi susanf@eerc.berkeley.edu p.s. Diane has kindly put my bibliography on the subject in the archives. (I no longer have it in sendible form as I keep meaning to revise it.) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 16:18:27 -0400 From: rebus@madbbs.com Subject: tummies To All: All this talk of corsets reminded me to tell you that sitting isolates the abdominal muscles...So suck in your tummy for ten seconds whenever you remember and you'll loose inches off your waists... I got the notion after watching one of those infomercials which wanted me to spend sixty dollars to do the same thing...I've lost 2 inches from my waist in a month,(for free) but then I write so I'm at the computer a lot... I realize this is off topic, but some people on another list really appreciated the info...Pax, Lili Lili Pintea-Reed Adjunct Prof. Psy. SUNY/Jamestown rebus@madbbs.com http://www.madbbs.com/rebus/rebus.htm ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Apr 96 15:29:26 CDT From: bednarek@tidalwave.med.ge.com (Dennis Bednarek Mfg 4-6971 ~BHOSVWZ#097) Subject: Victorian definition Alison Wrote: Dating the Victorian era...this is a constant peeve of mine...I keep seeing items (clothing, decorative arts, accessories, houses), called "Victorian", even though they aren't within the 1837-1901 date range. I think the best example I ran across was house for sale advertised as " a 1913 Victorian". I think even Edward was dead by then... I know some Victorian elements persisted into the Edwardian era, but I've been told by quite a few people that they market later items as "Victorian" because "they sell better". I guess I'm just a purist.... Alison Well it is more of definition of Victorian. Even today several builders are constructing Victorian homes. But these are mearly replicas or copies which most purists would call poor at that. One of our most prestigious local builders is selling Victorian homes, with built in whirl- pools, saunas, air conditioning as his top modle starting at $400,000. From the outside it looks Victorian and has 12 and 12 foot ceiling but is it really Victorian? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 17:47:11 -0400 (EDT) From: "Hoover, Kathleen M" Subject: Amadeus Hi! If anyone has the information Kelly Rinne asked for on Mozart-era Court Sumptuary Laws and other court behavior, please post it to the list or to me as well as her. I, too, have just been assigned a show to design. I'll be doing "Cosi Fan Tutte" next January. With my workload, I want to start researching and giving it some thought this summer. Thanks in advance... Kathy Hoover West Virginia University ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Apr 96 14:22:08 PDT From: Ches@mail.io.com Subject: Rare trims-reaonable prices There is a trim company that advertises by word of mouth in New York. They are called Joseph Edil (pronounced Adel) Co., P.O. Box 187, Plainview, NY 11805, 516-293-6722, Steve Huan. His prices are much lower that the vendors at most events and stores and of higher quality. They range from 1 to 3 inches in width, are ecclesiastical in design, are made of satin, rayon, or silk, metallic or non metallic and in primary colors and royal colors. The rayon is washable, the other two require special handling. Ciao @}\ Ches @}----`--,-- http://www.io.com/~ches/ @}/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Apr 96 15:20:56 PDT From: Mirabelle Severn & Thames Subject: Re: "harem costumes" Susan Fatemi says: For costume references, see esp. the wonderful book "Serpent of the Nile" (sorry don't have the author handy) a history of eastern dance. It has wonderful paintings, drawings, photos, etc. of both professional dancers and ordinary women amusing themselves. It is by Wendy Buonaventura. Yes, it is very good. A fascinating read and wonderful pictures. Another good book is Harem: behind the veil written by a modern Turkish woman based on interviews with her older relatives. Has photos. Naomi Brokaw ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 16:56:01 -0700 (PDT) From: close (Diane Barlow Close) Subject: Re: "harem costumes" Susan Fatemi wrote: > p.s. Diane has kindly put my bibliography on the subject in the archives. To anyone who wants a copy: Send the commands: get h-costume FAQ/costume_bibliography_eastern_dress.faq to majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com and the server will send you back that file. - -- Diane Close I'm at lunch all day. :-) If a Canadian Had Said It First (The Globe & Mail): "The price of freedom is eternal vigilance plus GST." ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 20:15:23 -0700 (PDT) From: Allan Terry Subject: Zippers There certainly were zippers before 1933 and I can recommend a book on their history. But is that the question? If you're looking for actual zippers I can't help you. Fran Grimble ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 23:55:52 -0400 From: lukelep@neca.com Subject: zippers Hi folks! I occurs to me that a place you might find pre-1933 zippers is in the collection of early flight suits/equipment at the Smithsonian Air and Space Museum in Washington. It is just a thought, but it might bear looking into. Luke ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 13 Apr 1996 00:06:20 -0400 From: lukelep@neca.com Subject: 17th cen names for colors Hi everyone! If I could call upon the collected knowledge of the mailing list in regards to 17th cen color names, I would be very grateful. They went in for as kooky names then as we do now and I have been able to figure a number of them (like 'dead Spaniard', the image that conjures up!) but there are a few that elude me, viz, 'folding color', 'de Boyes', 'barry', 'milly', 'tuly', also what is the difference in shade between Kendall green and Lincoln green. Any assistance would be appreciated. Cheers! Luke ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 13 Apr 1996 09:24:54 -0400 From: rebus@madbbs.com Subject: Re: tummies Geez... if I knew, then my flattening tummy would not be lending to a side profile which will not require a bustle.... Maybe a flat tummy makes the fat squish down to ones butt....(giggle) :-)...:-)Now if it would only squish up to ones busom...(sounds of hysterical laughing)...maybe if one stood on their head... Actually, ever since I had my kid (ok so he's four) my stomach just wouldn't flatten up unless (sounds of anguish) I did _SITUPS_...(cries from the depths of hell)... Seriously, this really has worked well for me, so I thought I'd pass it on...I really enjoy this list. Pax, Lili At 07:13 PM 4/12/96 -0500, you wrote: > >Ok, so now what do I do about my butt? > >Sharon in Phoenix > > >At 04:18 PM 4/12/96 -0400, you wrote: >>To All: >> >>All this talk of corsets reminded me to tell you that sitting isolates the >>abdominal muscles...So suck in your tummy for ten seconds whenever you >>remember and you'll loose inches off your waists... >> >>I got the notion after watching one of those infomercials which wanted me to >>spend sixty dollars to do the same thing...I've lost 2 inches from my waist >>in a month,(for free) but then I write so I'm at the computer a lot... >> >>I realize this is off topic, but some people on another list really >>appreciated the info...Pax, Lili >>Lili Pintea-Reed >>Adjunct Prof. Psy. >>SUNY/Jamestown >>rebus@madbbs.com >>http://www.madbbs.com/rebus/rebus.htm >> >> >> >> >> > > Lili Pintea-Reed Adjunct Prof. Psy. SUNY/Jamestown rebus@madbbs.com http://www.madbbs.com/rebus/rebus.htm ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 13 Apr 1996 09:43:00 -0500 From: corbie@radix.net (Corbie) Subject: Re: H-Costume Digest V4 #91 >> I'm looking at a catalogue which is offering the book, "Dress in Ireland," >> by Mairead Dunleavy. (snip) >> Anybody know this book? Is it any good? > >I don't know if it answers your question, but could you tell us the >name/address of the catalog? I'd like to order a copy of this book. I >hadn't realized it was in print. > >Heather Rose Jones I'm ordering it from: Unicorn Limited, Inc. PO Box 397 Bruceton Mills, WV 26525 304/379-8803 http://www.mountain.net/hp/unicorn/ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 13 Apr 1996 09:43:07 -0500 From: corbie@radix.net (Corbie) Subject: Re: "Dress in Ireland" >From: Erin Harvey Moody >Subject: Re: "Dress in Ireland" > >I have seen this book. It has some early period but not enough to warrant >the price if you are doing pre 1600 IMO. It concentrates on late 17th and >18th centuries. It is a very nice overview book with color plates. Hope that >helps. > >Erin I've gone ahead and ordered it, since I got a lot of other good reports on the book. But, can you recommend another good book on early (Iron-age to medieval) Irish dress? (I've seen one mentioned, but can't remember the name.) And, also, info on where I could buy it? (Or at least the ISBN number!) Thanks, Corbie ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 13 Apr 1996 16:16:06 -0700 From: drkangel@sirius.com (Laura Nunemaker) Subject: 19th c. women's Kimono A friend has a 19th c. women's Kimono he has come across. Anyone have suggestions as to where he might be able to sell it. He is not a vintage clothing dealer and would not be able to set up a both at a fair. Someone in the San Francisco Bay area would be especially helpful. Thanks Laura 'Depravity and Disappointment!' said the Needles and Pins. 'Disappearance and Damnation!' Edward Gorey ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 14 Apr 1996 01:59:26 -0400 From: WowCarol@aol.com Subject: Re: 17th cen names for colors Hi Luke! I think I can help with at least one of your color names- de Boyes is probably a bastardized version of the French "bois", so it is wood color- some natural shade of brown. Another example of this same language difficulty is a color mentioned as "filomot" or "phillymorte." This is probably an Anglicized version of "feuille morte" - i.e. dead-leaf color. You might enjoy reading a book I found called "Two Centuries of Costume in America" by Alice Morse Earle, from which the above information comes. - -Carol Binion ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 14 Apr 1996 00:42:33 -0700 From: polsons@sirius.com (The Polsons) Subject: Re: H-Costume Digest V4 #91 >On Thu, 11 Apr 1996, Corbie wrote: >> I'm looking at a catalogue which is offering the book, "Dress in Ireland," >> by Mairead Dunleavy. The catalogue (of course) says it's "a lavishly >> illustrated, well-researched study of the way in which the Irish dressed, >> rich and poor, male and female, from the bronze age to the 20th century." WOW! Holy mackerel.... I NEED this book!!!!!!! How do I get it???? ***************************************** Willow Polson polsons@sirius.com Recreating History magazine "Historic Crafts, Cooking, and Costuming" ***************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 14 Apr 1996 01:13:13 +0000 From: "Leslie Helms" Subject: Middle Eastern costume Oh, for heaven's sake. My computer has just sucked up a very interesting post and, apparently, spat it into subspace. Can someone resend me a copy of the comments on Saudi dress?! The post had specific names of women's garments and concluded with a description of the thawb worn as an overgarment by women and men. For a recent performance, my troupe borrowed a magnificent red thawb which I am told is a traditional bride's garment. (It is pronounced "thobe" in this area, but we are far, far away from the desert.) A typical vendor at a Middle Eastern dance event has a large proportion of Indian clothing and accessories, because these do indeed (as in an earlier post) most nearly approach the American idea of "harem outfits." In fact, a matching set of pants, skirt, and chopped-off top is often sold as just that. Used saris are imported in huge quantities, are from 3 to 9 yards, and vary from $20 to $200 or so. The elaborate woven borders are cut from damaged saris and sold as trim. These events are a great source of silk for all kinds of costuming. The truly Middle Eastern garments are less flowing and somewhat less colorful. A fabric called "assyut," a open-woven, coarse-threaded cotton studded with tiny bits of metal in patterns, is scarce but quite authentic. (It's also beastly uncomfortable!) The actual clothes worn by women in the Middle East have varied as much from country to country and even from one regime to the next as they have with time. The entire issue has been muddled because Western outsiders rarely saw ME women except in enveloping yards of veils in the earlier days of photography. Shortly after that (1890s) the first dancers were brought to America and the effect of Western expectations and new textiles began to alter ME dress. _Serpent of the Nile_ has been mentioned. Another good book w/pics is _Looking for Little Egypt_ by Donna Carlton (1994, ISBN 0-9623998-1-7). I'm speaking from dusty memory here! In semi-urban ME areas, young women of working-class families often danced to collect money for their dowries. The custom of wearing coins had a practical origin; a girl's possessions were safe nowhere but on her person. After finding a husband, a woman would never dance in public again. The street-corner dances were a hammed-up version of the village dances and eventually evolved into something like our current version. The dancers' clothing, fitted more closely than a married woman would wear, comes to us as the "Ghawazee" coat. Higher-class families, of course, would never allow their daughters so much leeway. Dancers refer to the "ethnic" (as opposed to "cabaret/night club") look, which is a hodge-podge of several areas/cultures. This mix is also called "American Tribal" and I wouldn't be surprised in 20 years to see it captioned in a book as "Middle Eastern" although you would never see such a combination in the MidEast. For instance, the often-used choli (think of a halter top with long sleeves) is from the Indian subcontinent. By sticking with cotton and wool and upping the yardage considerably, one can approach an authentic look. Fortunately for costumers (and dancers) there is quite a bit of authentic jewelry available. Traditional pieces have been made in many of the same styles for centuries, and are available at dance events. Middle Eastern costuming is frustrating; "authentic" depends so precisely on time, place, social situation, status of all parties, etc. that most of us who dance just give up the struggle, dress like Cairo prostitutes of years gone by, and have fun with it. If anyone out there wants more info or to talk construction methods, write me. Leslie ------------------------------ End of H-Costume Digest V4 #92 ****************************** A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, send the command lines: unsubscribe h-costume-digest subscribe h-costume end in the body of a message to majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com. Thanks and enjoy the list!