From: owner-h-costume-digest (H-Costume Digest) To: h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Subject: H-Costume Digest V4 #96 Reply-To: h-costume Sender: owner-h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Errors-To: owner-h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Precedence: bulk H-Costume Digest Saturday, April 20 1996 Volume 4, Number 96 Compilation copyright (C) 1996 Diane Barlow Close and Gretchen Miller Use in whole prohibited. Individual articles are the property of the author. Seek permission from that author before reprinting or quoting elsewhere. Important Addresses: Send submissions to: h-costume@lunch.engr.sgi.com (or reply to this message). Adds/drops/archives: majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com Real, live person: h-costume-request@andrew.cmu.edu Topics: Corsetts in 1908-1915 sleeve hole repair Fun with smocks Re: Fun with smocks Re: sleeve hole repair Prayer shawels. RE: Prayer shawels. Re: Prayer shawels. sleeves Re: Prayer shawels. Re: Costume Help: fitted arm-holes or not? Mao style jackets Elenor of Toledo Re: Fun with smocks Re: Fun with smocks Re: Elenor of Toledo Waist sizes Re: Prayer shawels. prayer shawls Re: Waist sizes ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 19 Apr 1996 10:28:39 -0700 (PDT) From: FRANCESM@FIN.ADMIN.USFCA.EDU Subject: Corsetts in 1908-1915 I am writing a novel which takes place in Kentucky betweent the years 1908-1915. Does anyone know what a farming class woman would be wearing in terms of undergarments and specifically in terms of corsetts? Melodie Frances University of San Francisco francesm@usfca.edu ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Apr 96 12:41:45 PDT From: Ches@mail.io.com Subject: sleeve hole repair I have a question on how to enlarge an armhole. I have a nice tudor green velvet dress with gold sleeves. The sleeves are just gathered so I can enlarge them. But can I just open the arm hole by cutting the hole bigger or open the seam down a little further? HELP! I do not have any more of the velvet as it was a gift from 10 years ago and is very beautiful. The length is perfect the waist is perfect the chest is perfect! I want to fix it without losing it! Ciao @}\ Ches @}----`--,-- http://www.io.com/~ches/ @}/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Apr 1996 14:05:41 -0400 (EDT) From: aleed Subject: Fun with smocks Just thought I'd share with you an ironic discovery I made the other day... A while back I made a schlepp dress to wear around at SCA events...you know, the "Pull it over your head and go" kind of dress. I didn't have anything period in mind--just a basic flared T-Tunic. Well, I laid the fabric out and cut out the front and back; then I discovered that the triangular scraps left on the sides fit perfectly as gores from the armpit to the floor, and helped make the skirt bigger. The front neckline gaped a bit, so I gathered it to a narrow band. The fabric was too narrow for full length sleeves, so I used most of the remaining scraps to lengthen them by six inches. By the time I was finished, I had a handful of scraps left from 3.5 yards of fabric. I hemmed it, hung it in my closet, and didn't think any more of it. Until yesterday, that is. I was looking through a book of medieval paintings, and lo and behold there was my dress. Complete with front neck gathers, two triangular gores from the armpit to the ground, and pieces sewn at the sleeve cuffs to lengthen them. Go figure. Drea - ------------------------------- We've secretly replaced their dilithium crystals with new folgers crystals. Now let's watch them go to warp. - ------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Apr 1996 13:56:03 -0500 (CDT) From: Gwyndlyn J Ferguson Subject: Re: Fun with smocks On Fri, 19 Apr 1996, aleed wrote: > A while back I made a schlepp dress to wear around at SCA > events...you know, the "Pull it over your head and go" kind of dress. I > didn't have anything period in mind--just a basic flared T-Tunic. > Until yesterday, that is. I was looking through a book of medieval > paintings, and lo and behold there was my dress. Complete with front > neck gathers, two triangular gores from the armpit to the ground, and > pieces sewn at the sleeve cuffs to lengthen them. > I've been trying to teach that to my new sewers for years now! Just because it's sevearl hundred years old, doesn't mean that a technique isn't worth using. Congratulations on your discovery! :) :) :) Gwyn *Gwyn Ferguson******************************Ly. Gwyndlyn Caer Vyrddin *Dept. of History*********************************March of Lochmorrow *Western Illinois University***********************SCA-Middle Kingdom *Internet: GJ-Ferguson@wiu.edu***********************************MoAS But it's Eaaaasy! --gf ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Apr 1996 11:48:41 -0700 (PDT) From: Mary Larose Subject: Re: sleeve hole repair It's kind of hard to tell without actually seeing how you constructed the bodice but... You usually can make the armhole larger on any bodice. I recommend cutting at the bottom rather than the any from the top, because the top is likely narrow enough already. Most bodice are cut a little deeper in the back than the front too. If your sleeves are adjustable then that is good, because that is usually the problem in trying to enlarge the arm holes of a garment. Be careful and make sure you don't cut too much. Maybe mock up the bodice to ensure you know exactly how much larger the holes need to be...good luck. Mary ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Apr 1996 08:56:14 -0600 (CST) From: Robin Armstrong Subject: Prayer shawels. Emergency! Emergency! Costumer about to explode! I need to make 20 prayer shawels ala "Fiddler" before 6:00 tonight. It's for a dance show that already has some 750 costume pieces in it. I'm not married to pure authenticity, I don't have the luxury of time or skilled hands available. So, Rampart, I need 20 shawels, STAT. Thoughts? ********************************************************************** Robin Armstrong * nsarm0782@alpha.nsula.edu Directing Major Northwestern State University ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Apr 1996 15:38:45 -0500 (CDT) From: Deb Subject: RE: Prayer shawels. I know absolutely NOTHING about authentic prayer shawls. But with that kind of deadline, I'd buy 10 squares of 45" or 60" wide fabric, (either 10 x 45" length or 10 x 60" length, depending on the width) and cut them in half diagonally. No hemming, no nothing. If they're to be worn more than once, maybe I'd hem them tomorrow. Or run a zig-zag (or serger) over the edges without an actual hem. Pick an upholstery fabric with some exotic pattern. <=======================================================> < Deb Baddorf baddorf@fnal.gov Costumer, RevWar re-enactor ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Apr 1996 17:32:50 -0400 (EDT) From: Gretchen Miller Subject: Re: Prayer shawels. Actually, from what I've seen, a prayer shawl is white with fringes on the end. White linen or heavy cotton should work--say broadcloth. toodles, gretchen ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Apr 1996 18:00:33 -0400 (EDT) From: RMITCHELL@washjeff.edu Subject: sleeves Ches - To enlarge the sleevehole: cut a moon-shape piece on the bottom of the arm-hole 3 or 4 inches on either side of the underarm seam. Readjust the sleeve-gathers to accomodate the new space. It works for me! Needle-footed Kathleen (per Lloyd Mitchell (rmitchell@washjeff.edu)) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Apr 1996 18:30:29 -0500 From: humantch@tiac.net (Meredith Hoffman) Subject: Re: Prayer shawels. At 5:32 PM 4/19/96, Gretchen Miller wrote: >Actually, from what I've seen, a prayer shawl is white with fringes on >the end. White linen or heavy cotton should work--say broadcloth. Conventionally, about 2 yd long, anywhere from 24" to 48" or more wide (but I'd think for costuming purposes you'd go for 24"). The yardage length does not need to have fringe--some do some don't. Whether or not the yardage is fringed, a *real* prayer shawl (tallis, or tallit) has *ritual* fringes in the four corners--BUT that would be totally inappropriate for a dance performance or for anything but wearing for actual morning prayer, or perhaps for a tasteful and respectful theatrical simulation of actual morning prayer. Traditional prayer shawls often have color bands running width-wise along the two ends. In a quick pinch, I'd try fat magic markers in red, blue, purple. Good luck, - --mh Meredith Hoffman/HumaniTech Ph: 508-746-4662 and 415-323-1559 53 Russell Street FAX: 508-746-4115 Plymouth MA 02360 email: humantch@tiac.net http://www.tiac.net/users/humantch ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Apr 96 17:34 CDT From: ROBERT@UIAMVS.WEEG.UIOWA.EDU Subject: Re: Costume Help: fitted arm-holes or not? The extant garments that I know of from the 13th century (I'm not sure if any of them are from as early as 1200) all have sleeves attached to the main body. I do not believe any of them are cut to fit very closely. The Greenland finds were written up fairly completely in about the 1920's. I don't have the citation with me, but it is in Hald's bibliography. If you are interested, I will try to remember to bring it to work next week. Wendy Robertson wendy-robertson@uiowa.edu ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Apr 1996 18:03:21 -0800 From: "R.L. Shep" Subject: Mao style jackets Does anyone know when the Chinese started wearing Mao style jackets? Can you also provide a reference? Thanks R.L. Shep ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Apr 1996 21:31:27 -0700 (PDT) From: Mary Larose Subject: Elenor of Toledo Hey kids...riddle me this... I am working on the dress Elenor of Toledo is wearing in the portrait by Bronzino. My confusion is the neddlework that is on the cuffs and neckline of the chemise. My first assumption was that it is blackwork, but when I got a really close look it appears too thick (at least a double thread thickness) and too jaggy to actually be blackwork. My question would be if any one has any idea what type of needlework it might be...it is definately reversible. I would think that it may simply be the painting style itself except that everything else is so amazingly correct that I find it difficult to believe that Bronzino would gloss over the exact detail for that aspect. All educated guesses would be greatly appreciated Mary ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 20 Apr 1996 01:58:59 -0400 From: Ngelina@aol.com Subject: Re: Fun with smocks >I was looking through a book of medieval >paintings, and lo and behold there was my dress.... Go figure. Not that much to figure, really--if it worked for you, it worked for them, too. A good reminder that your instincts _can_ be trusted, and a kind of nifty connection to some medieval seamstress, too. Karen/Angelina ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 20 Apr 1996 09:11:44 -0500 (CDT) From: The Espresso Pegasus! Subject: Re: Fun with smocks On Sat, 20 Apr 1996 Ngelina@aol.com wrote: > >I was looking through a book of medieval > >paintings, and lo and behold there was my dress.... Go figure. > > Not that much to figure, really--if it worked for you, it worked for them, > too. A good reminder that your instincts _can_ be trusted, and a kind of > nifty connection to some medieval seamstress, too. This is why it is a good thing to throw out the directions when you begin to sew medievally. Just instinct sew it. (not reccommended for elizabethan.. ;) But I guess if 'it worked for them... it still works. Which is one reason I can't figure out why people say that darts weren't period(for the middle ages). They are a simple concept.. surely some would have grasped it... or is there a facet that I am missing to this? Btw when did Darts come into play? Thanks! Sarahj ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 20 Apr 1996 12:21:26 -0400 From: rebus@madbbs.com Subject: Re: Elenor of Toledo There are a number of Arabic embriodery techniques that might fit the bill. It would not be too great a leap to suggest that after being occupied by Arabs for arouund 600 years that Spain wouldn't have used some Arab embriodery...Check sources on that....Lili At 12:40 AM 4/20/96 -0500, you wrote: > > >Hey kids...riddle me this... > >I am working on the dress Elenor of Toledo is wearing in the portrait by >Bronzino. My confusion is the neddlework that is on the cuffs and >neckline of the chemise. My first assumption was that it is blackwork, >but when I got a really close look it appears too thick (at least a >double thread thickness) and too jaggy to actually be blackwork. > >My question would be if any one has any idea what type of needlework it >might be...it is definately reversible. I would think that it may simply >be the painting style itself except that everything else is so amazingly >correct that I find it difficult to believe that Bronzino would gloss >over the exact detail for that aspect. > >All educated guesses would be greatly appreciated >Mary > Lili Pintea-Reed Adjunct Prof. Psy. SUNY/Jamestown rebus@madbbs.com http://www.madbbs.com/rebus/rebus.htm ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 20 Apr 1996 14:13:37 -0400 From: JPMcTeer@aol.com Subject: Waist sizes My favorite bit of research on this topic is from the book "Fashion and Eroticism" by Valerie Steele, Oxford University Press, New York, 1985. Actual measurements were taken of the waistlines of garments in the Symington collection. The body measurement on the inside of the corset would have been smaller than over the corset, corset cover, petticoats, etc. I have "condensed" the information below. Table of The Waist of Reality (garment measurements) 1856 - 1881 from 19 to 34", avg 23.2 1881-1900 from 18 to 40 inches(1of each) greatest count at 21-22, avg 22 1900-1910 from 19 to 28" greatest count at 20: avg 21.9 Drawing conclusions from this raw data may be hazardous, since I do not know the criteria used for selecting the garments to be kept in the collection. Joan P. McTeer ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 20 Apr 1996 12:50:52 -0700 (PDT) From: "Sarah E. Goodman" Subject: Re: Prayer shawels. This is probably too late, but the fastest thing to do would be call local synagogues and ask if you could borrow (which you might or might not get--I'd try Reform synagogues first). The wouldn't be historically correct (probably rayon or poly) but would pass. "Legally" all it has to be is something with 4 corners, with special knotted fringes at the corners. (There are also some retrictions on mixing wool with linen.) To make a bunch of things that look right fast, get some white or grey fabric, cut it off in about 2 1/2 yard peices, hem them, run about 15 strands of carpet thread through at each corner (like 12-15 inches each) and knot them in a couple of places down the length, leaving a couple of inches unknoted at the bottom. It won't be a tallis, but it will look ok. In a pinch you could cut the fabric neatly and just toss them on, ignoring the tassle thingees. Later you can add stripes, a neck guard, fringes across and other things to make them look good and differenciate the characters. For what it's worth, there should be differences in style, material according to taste and class. ------------------------------ Date: 20 Apr 96 03:21:18 GMT From: dodom@fogelson.csf.edu (Odom Cheryl TEMPORARY) Subject: prayer shawls If you subscribers can stand a little more input on this subject, I am speaking as a goy costume designer who designed a production of Fiddler a little more than a year ago. I feel the same about religious articles that I feel about military uniforms. They have got to be as absolutely right as they can possibly be. You will always have people in the audience who know what right looks like so if you try to fake it you will get called on it. I was once called on the fact that I had the wrong "scrambled eggs" on an officer's cap. Regarding prayer shawls, it's even more important as you risk offending someone's religious tradition. This is what I learned about prayer shawls. They generally run about 45" or longer by wide enough to cover the head for prayers. They are worn only by men. They generally have stripes woven into them. The width and number of stripes vary and relate to the wearer's heritage. They also generally have fringe and longer fringe at the corners which is knotted in a variety of ways-also dealing with heritage and tradition. When the shawl is not in use it is worn folded around the owners waist between shirt and vest and can be seen hanging out beneath in research. Since Fiddler is a play about tradition versus chance, it's really important to get this right. How I accomplished this was by buying handwoven-looking drapery, cutting it to length plus fringe, unfringing the ends, knotting it and then adding stripes copied from research with a permanent magic marker. I used black, because my research indicated that this was the prevalent color. I feel I achieved a very realistic effect. No one of the Jewish faith questioned my choice. Bottom line is I approached this subject with a great deal of respect and reverence for the Jewish tradition. I guess my last comment would be, how did it happen that these shawls needed to be manifested in a 24-hour period? What was the allowed time for the mounting of the production? Why was this left to the last minute? This is something that the costume designer should have addressed from the beginning of the construction period. Any costume designers out there of the Jewish faith who would care to comment? Cheryl Odom, College of Santa Fe, Santa Fe, New Mexic ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 20 Apr 1996 17:10:23 -0400 From: BBrisbane@aol.com Subject: Re: Waist sizes Here's a thought on the sizes of surviving garments of any era where a great deat of fabric is used, and then reused in the interest of economy: it is easy to cut a garment down to a smaller size, or recut completely to a different style in a smaller size, but unless the style changes dramatically from a voluminous to close fitting, it is almost impossible to cut to a larger size. From the Victorian era we have photos, from earlier periods we have other visual representations and not a few of them represent rather hefty people. It has been my theory that we have all these small surviving garments because people ran out of smaller people to make them down for. Add another theory to the pot -- -- Brenda ------------------------------ End of H-Costume Digest V4 #96 ****************************** A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, send the command lines: unsubscribe h-costume-digest subscribe h-costume end in the body of a message to majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com. Thanks and enjoy the list!