From: owner-h-costume-digest (H-Costume Digest) To: h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Subject: H-Costume Digest V4 #98 Reply-To: h-costume Sender: owner-h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Errors-To: owner-h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Precedence: bulk H-Costume Digest Monday, April 22 1996 Volume 4, Number 98 Compilation copyright (C) 1996 Diane Barlow Close and Gretchen Miller Use in whole prohibited. Individual articles are the property of the author. Seek permission from that author before reprinting or quoting elsewhere. Important Addresses: Send submissions to: h-costume@lunch.engr.sgi.com (or reply to this message). Adds/drops/archives: majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com Real, live person: h-costume-request@andrew.cmu.edu Topics: Waist Sizes Early knitting needles Re: Small Garment Hypothesis Re: medieval clothing - dearth of information Mao Jackets Re: medieval clothing - dearth of information Re: Fans and headpieces Re: medieval clothing - dearth of information Re: medieval clothing - dearth of information Millia Davenport Award, CSA Re: Waist Sizes Re: Millia Davenport Award, CSA Re: Waist Sizes/corsets Re: Millia Davenport Award, CSA Early Anglo-Saxon Clothing Re: medieval clothing - dearth of information Re: Waist Sizes circlets ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 22 Apr 96 9:02:00 From: Stacey Weinberger at WADSWORTH Subject: Waist Sizes New Text Item: Re: H-Costume Digest V4 #96 I heard anouther interesting theory. The corset size is not the actual waist size because of the gap in the back where the corset doesn't meet. Therefore the corset "size" could be a minimum of 2" smaller than the actual waist size. Has anybody else heard of this? Stacey stacey_weinberger@wadsworth.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Apr 1996 12:10:47 -0500 From: Jan Rosenthal Subject: Early knitting needles What are the modern equivalents to bone knitting needles sizes 8 and 9 from 1897? And what about steel? I have a jacket pattern from a Ladies' Home Journal of that year which calls for fingering weight yarn, so I know the needle sizes are not the same as modern. All help appreciated! JR jan.rosenthal@metc.state.mn.us "Don't try to get the better of your wheel. You cannot teach it anything, and there is really much for you to learn." Maria E. Ward, 1896 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Apr 1996 13:07:37 -0500 From: recon36@server.iadfw.net (Ed Walton) Subject: Re: Small Garment Hypothesis >I know little about the military, but wouldn't the majority of the men in >it be young and healthy? (i.e. thin.) Not a representation of society as >a whole. No. That's a recent development after WW2. The 19-yr-old lean, mean fighting machine who is vastly more physically fit than society as a whole is a relatively new idea invented by the Nazi Waffen-SS just before WW2. The idea was adopted by the USMC and certain elite parts of the Army (special forces and paratroops) at the time of America's entrance into the war. However, this was considered experimental and was not the case for the vast majority of the US's 18 million men in uniform in WW2 (don't forget that rear echelon types needed uniforms too), and even less so for the other nations involved in the conflict. Remember, conditioning hikes were the most strenuous from of training and running was unheard of in troop training. Before WW2, the 20 and 30 year enlistments were the norm for regular armies, and besides being shorter and thinner than today's troops, combatants of old were much older on average. Compare the average age of ETO frontline infantry in WW2 at 29 yrs (including big numbers into the late 30's, early 40's) with Viet Nam's 19 yrs. The age of support troops goes way up, too. If you're still not convinced, I have tons of info like this I can bombard you with. The farther back in history you go, the older and less fit the troops. The above WW2 facts are even more pronounced in WW1, then in the Spanish-American War (which had Civil War vets fighting), then in the Civil War, and so on. The "young and healthy" 18 yr old recruits of today could not fit into 80% of the uniforms procured by the US Army for a 29 year old in WW2. The pants are too short and tight, and the jackets are too small in the chest and neck. There is no doubt that people are taller and fatter than in years past. - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - --Ed Walton "Lost Battalions" Original and Reproduction WW2 Uniforms http://web2.airmail.net/recon36 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Apr 1996 12:18:34 -0500 (CDT) From: Teresa Shannon Subject: Re: medieval clothing - dearth of information > > I am an adult college student currently studying Arthurian Legend. I > am particularly interested in the clothing of the era. Since most > legend has very littly in the way of actual description, I would like > to find out as much as possible about design, color, and fabric and > construction. > Can you advise on sources? > As the "Arthurian Legend Era" constitutes a thousand years now, and possibly several hundred years for setting background details, perhaps you could be more specific? Chretian de Troyes was using 12th cent. backdrops as surely as Malory was using 15th century. I would suggest your query is more suited to ARTHURNET where there is an entire newsgroup of experts on all the minutae of the Arthurian legends, including clothing. Please e-mail, I think I still have the listserv information if you are interested. Teresa ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Apr 1996 11:10:26 -0700 From: Subject: Mao Jackets For a reference on Mao jackets, I'd suggest the book "Chinese Costume in Transition" by A.C. Scott, 1958, d Donald Moore Pubs, Singapore. It doesn't give an exact date, but discusses men's & women's clothing from the late 1800's to the 1950's, including the uniforms & jackets worn by both the Nationalists & the Communists. From a quick skim through the text just now, it seems to discuss the Mao jacket being popularized after 1949. Hope this helps... Alison ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Apr 1996 13:11:59 -0500 (CDT) From: Gwyndlyn J Ferguson Subject: Re: medieval clothing - dearth of information On Sun, 21 Apr 1996, MS LINDA CANIANO wrote: > I am an adult college student currently studying Arthurian Legend. I > am particularly interested in the clothing of the era. Since most > legend has very littly in the way of actual description, I would like > to find out as much as possible about design, color, and fabric and > construction. > Can you advise on sources? > That would first depend on _which_ particular version of the Arthur legend you're interested in. Most of the historical scholarship places the "real" Arthur (if there is one) in post-Roman Britain, repelling Saxon invasions. However the legends span a considerable time period. Are you interested in the whole range, or one particular verion of the legend? Gwyn *Gwyn Ferguson******************************Ly. Gwyndlyn Caer Vyrddin *Dept. of History*********************************March of Lochmorrow *Western Illinois University***********************SCA-Middle Kingdom *Internet: GJ-Ferguson@wiu.edu***********************************MoAS ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Apr 1996 14:09:58 -0500 (CDT) From: "Rachel E. Mast" Subject: Re: Fans and headpieces On Mon, 15 Apr 1996, Ruth Cooper wrote: > I have two questions for anyone who could possibly answer them. How far > back do hand held folding fans date and when were they most likely used > (i.e. court, balls)? > And how do I get an early period(1000-1200) floor length veil to stay on my > head for most of a day? The veil is very sheer light weight cotton. I have > tried pinning it, wrapping a portion of it around a headband, and using a > simple cloth braided circlet. I have hip length fine hair that I usually > wear in a single braid over my left shoulder when I wear a veil. I have a > hard time keeping most hair ornaments in my hair because it's so fine. Any > help and suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Thank-you! > > Ruth Cooper > SCA persona Kassia MacWilliams > > Milady The only thing that I can think of is getting a metal circlet. Although one of my friends was successful with hair combs. If you like I can send you the address of a local metal worker in my shire. He has a catalog, and although his work isn't perfect, I find it unique. His prices are also fairly reasonable ($7 to $25), depending on what you want. He can sell jewlrey as long as you live about 100 miles away from Evansville. (A contract with a local jewlery store). I'm glad to be of any assistance! Sasha rmast@risc.usi.edu ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Apr 1996 12:14:08 -0700 (PDT) From: Gwen Carnegi Subject: Re: medieval clothing - dearth of information One interesting book I came across in the stacks a couple of days ago is: Goddard, Eunice Rathbone, 1881- Women's costume in French texts of the eleventh and twelfth centuries. Baltimore, Johns Hopkins Press, 1927. [New York, Johnson Reprint Corp., 1973]. Series title: The Johns Hopkins studies in Romance literatures and languages v. 7. UCD Shields PC13.J6 v.7 It is a reference book for people studying medieval literature and is nothing but citations for clothing and clothing descriptions called out in romantic literature 1000 to 1100. I had a decent look at it, recognized several notations but had to leave it for another time. However, it is not in the same format as "Costume in the Drama of Shakespeare and his Comtemporaries". You will need someone to help you translate what samite is and so forth. Gwyndolynn Anne the Obscure Gwyn Carnegie Mistress of the Arts, West Kingdom gcarnegi@netcom.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Apr 1996 12:37:53 -0700 (PDT) From: Heather Rose Jones Subject: Re: medieval clothing - dearth of information On Sun, 21 Apr 1996, MS LINDA CANIANO wrote: > I am an adult college student currently studying Arthurian Legend. I > am particularly interested in the clothing of the era. Since most > legend has very littly in the way of actual description, I would like > to find out as much as possible about design, color, and fabric and > construction. > Can you advise on sources? Well, the first major question is whether you are interested in the clothing of the time/place of the probably historic Arthur; or if you are interested in the clothing of the time(s) and place(s) in which arthurial literature was written (which will not all be homogeneous!); or if you are interested in clothing descriptions found in Arthurial literature and how they correlate to actual historic clothing of any of the above. If you mean the first, I'm afraid you're going to be sadly disappointed. There simply isn't much information at all on the topic. If you mean the second, then, after identifying which of the Arthurian-literature-producing cultures you're aiming at, any good comprehensive European historical costuming text should be able to give you the basics and point you toward other sources. If you mean the third, then you may have a good primary research topic in front of you. You'll have to go through the literatue involved and pull out the clothing references, double-check the translations so see if they're accurate on terminology, and get the background information from question two anyway, so you know the context in which the descriptions can be situated. (This is a lot of work.) I've done an approximation of the third approach for the various Welsh-language Arthurian tales in my booklet "Medieval Welsh Clothing to 1300", but I don't know whether it has ever been done for the French, English, and other material. Heather Rose Jones ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Apr 1996 13:02:46 -0800 From: "R.L. Shep" Subject: Millia Davenport Award, CSA "The Miliia Davenport Publication Award recognizes excellence in scholarship in the study of costume...and promotes research and publication on costume." This award is given once a year by The Costume Society of America. Being on the jury for this year's awards, I have just received official notice from the society that the award will be given this year to Joan Severa for "Dressed for the Photographer: Ordinary Americans and Fashion: 1840-1900." I am happy to pass this information on to all of you. This is an excellent book and the decision of the jury was unanimous. "Dressed for the Photographer" has been reviewed by Fran Grimble in the Spring (current) edition of RAGS. Her ending comment was "It is hard to see how it could be improved on." One can presume from that that had Fran been on the jury she would have concurred with the rest of us. R.L. Shep ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Apr 96 15:23:42 CDT From: bednarek@tidalwave.med.ge.com (Dennis Bednarek Mfg 4-6971 ~BHOSVWZ#097) Subject: Re: Waist Sizes :> From Stacey_Weinberger_at_WADSWORTH.WADSWORTH.ITP@wadsworth.com Mon Apr 22 11:> :> New Text Item: Re: H-Costume Digest V4 #96 :> :> I heard anouther interesting theory. The corset size is not the actual waist :> size because of the gap in the back where the corset doesn't meet. Therefore :> the corset "size" could be a minimum of 2" smaller than the actual waist size. :> :> Has anybody else heard of this? Yes that is true. Actually you can take the "norm" of 20 inches and add the 2" for the gap. Add another 2 inches for amount it is pulling in the individual from there natural waist size. Then You come up with a 24 inch waist. But I still do not believe the 24 inch could be the norm unless the age of the norm was 16 or so. dennis ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Apr 1996 13:52:26 -0700 From: jamie@home.net (Jamie Nikkel) Subject: Re: Millia Davenport Award, CSA R.L. Shep wrote: > > "The Miliia Davenport Publication Award recognizes excellence in > scholarship in the study of costume...and promotes research and > publication on costume." This award is given once a year by The Costume > Society of America. snipped for space > R.L. Shep Does anyone have (or know if/where might be available) a list of winners from previous years? Jamie Nikkel jamie@home.net ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Apr 1996 17:29:00 -0400 (EDT) From: Joanne Haug Subject: Re: Waist Sizes/corsets > >Yes that is true. Actually you can take the "norm" of 20 inches and add >the 2" for the gap. Add another 2 inches for amount it is pulling in the >individual from there natural waist size. Then You come up with a 24 inch >waist. But I still do not believe the 24 inch could be the norm unless the >age of the norm was 16 or so. > > dennis I have two 19th century corsets on my web page, both with 19" waists, therefore should be for a 21" woman or girl...one is black leather and the other is red & yellow silk, definitely not the norm. Sure hope a 16 year old did not own them, though it is possible considering the age of some prostitutes. The more ordinary (and boring) style corsets on the page have waist measurements of 29" to 36" (now those women might have needed some of those exercises everyone was e-mailing back and forth.) Joanne, Reflections of the Past http://www.victoriana.com/antiques/corsets.html > > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Apr 1996 15:04:08 -0800 From: "R.L. Shep" Subject: Re: Millia Davenport Award, CSA Jamie Nikkel wrote: > > R.L. Shep wrote: > > > > "The Miliia Davenport Publication Award recognizes excellence in > > scholarship in the study of costume...and promotes research and > > publication on costume." This award is given once a year by The Costume > > Society of America. > > snipped for space > > > R.L. Shep > > Does anyone have (or know if/where might be available) a list of winners from > previous years? > > Jamie Nikkel > jamie@home.net 1991. Kate C. Duncan. "Northern Athapaskan Art: A Beadwork Tradition." 1992 Elizabeth Barber. "Prehistoric Textiles." 1993 Dale Carolyn Gluckman & Sharon Sadako Takeda "When Art Becomes Fashion: Kosode in Edo-Period Japan." 1994 Liza C. Dalby "Kimono: Fashioning Culture." 1995 Elizabeth Barber "Women's Work: The First 20,000 Years." R.L. Shep ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Apr 1996 23:12:09 +0000 From: ben Subject: Early Anglo-Saxon Clothing Hi there I wondered if anyone would like to visit my page on early Anglo-Saxon costume at http://www.geocities.com/Athens/2471/dress.html I would appreciate any *CONSTRUCTIVE* criticism, and would welcome any additional information anyone might have on this subject. Ben Levick ben@hrofi.demon.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Apr 96 17:22 CDT From: ROBERT@UIAMVS.WEEG.UIOWA.EDU Subject: Re: medieval clothing - dearth of information Are you interested in the time period in which the legends were written down, or are you interested in when they supposedly occurred? If you are interested in when they occurred, when do you think they occurred? ****************************** Wendy Robertson Serials Cataloging University of Iowa (319) 335-5894 wendy-robertson@uiowa.edu ****************************** ****************************************************************** > > Date: Sun, 21 Apr 1996 19:52:31 EDT > From: LINDA_CAN@prodigy.com (MS LINDA CANIANO) > Subject: medieval clothing - dearth of information > > I am an adult college student currently studying Arthurian Legend. I > am particularly interested in the clothing of the era. Since most > legend has very littly in the way of actual description, I would like > to find out as much as possible about design, color, and fabric and > construction. Can you advise on sources? > > Thank you for your time. > > Linda Caniano ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Apr 1996 18:29:13 -0400 From: BBrisbane@aol.com Subject: Re: Waist Sizes The gap theory could have merit, since I know of many ladies wearing corsets of many eras and styles which no longer meet in the back, and sometimes by more than two inches. Brenda ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Apr 1996 16:27:18 -0500 (CDT) From: The Espresso Pegasus! Subject: circlets > Milady > The only thing that I can think of is getting a metal circlet. > Although one of my friends was successful with hair combs. If you like I > can send you the address of a local metal worker in my shire. He has a > catalog, and although his work isn't perfect, I find it unique. His > prices are also fairly reasonable ($7 to $25), depending on what you > want. He can sell jewlrey as long as you live about 100 miles away from > Evansville. (A contract with a local jewlery store). > OR, if you are into making things yourself.... you can do like I did... get two feet of copper grounding wire from your local hardware store.(30cents a foot) and take a propane torch, a bit of solder (with flux) (or seperately) and a bucket of cold water. Go to a pawn shop and look for a few good files, and punches/taps. (these are basically 'hammer extensions' that occasionally have a little circle tip/pointy end on them) And a cement brick, and a pliers, and a hammer. put the brick on a work table.. this is only to protect the surface... set up in a less than drafty room. and if you are esspecially protective about the table you are using... get two small bricks, and one long patio brick, and make a brick table. (get these at a menards for 50cents apeice) take the wire, and on the brick, or cement floor/sidewalk, take the taps and hammer in a simple design. this can be done with the punches(and hammer), make a little line of circles/dots down the length of the metal. You now have texture! This makes the rounded imperfections less obvious, and add character. Now, measure a non-stretchy string around your head (or a strip of paper) and cut the wire to match the circumfrence of your head. take hammer in hand, and *flatten* the two ends. for about 1/2 inches on each. now, bend your wire a bit, (it'll be stiff) and put it on the cement block. then light the torch, and heat it up... until it glows a pretty red. (I've heard of this working in a campfire.. but it's not reccommended) thenquickly take the torch off of it, when the whole piece is glowing, and using tweezers, drop it in the cold wter (sssssssssssssst noise) Some water will spash, so avoid putting your face near it. take the wireout of the water, and you will find it fabulously bendy, and easy to form. (this whole process is called annealing) look at the hammered ends, sand them to give them a rough feel to them(this helps the solder sitick better) and then take pliers and match them up... Don't worry about the shape of the circlet yet. take the solder wire, and hammer it flatter (not paper thin) and cut pieces to fit on the hammered (now matched up) ends(don't over do it). put the solder between the hammered ends, and then hold the solder sandwich in the grip of the pliers. carefully turn on the torch (or have a friend do it) and heat the joint. in time, you will see the solder melt, and at theis point, squeeze the pliers together, making sure that all parts of the join are looking connected, then drop it in the water. Take it out of the water, and forme it to fit your head. it may be lose... but wait for the veil. the copper will be kind of grimy from all the heating... so take some fine grit sandpaper, or better yet, a brass brush, and clean it up a bit. it'll be pretty and shiny! and ready to wear. you have the option to add a bit more circles to cover the jointed area. Take care, and good luck! Sarahj (SCA Celine Grandjean) ------------------------------ End of H-Costume Digest V4 #98 ****************************** A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, send the command lines: unsubscribe h-costume-digest subscribe h-costume end in the body of a message to majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com. Thanks and enjoy the list!