From: owner-h-costume-digest (H-Costume Digest) To: h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Subject: H-Costume Digest V4 #103 Reply-To: h-costume Sender: owner-h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Errors-To: owner-h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Precedence: bulk H-Costume Digest Sunday, April 28 1996 Volume 4, Number 103 Compilation copyright (C) 1996 Diane Barlow Close and Gretchen Miller Use in whole prohibited. Individual articles are the property of the author. Seek permission from that author before reprinting or quoting elsewhere. Important Addresses: Send submissions to: h-costume@lunch.engr.sgi.com (or reply to this message). Adds/drops/archives: majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com Real, live person: h-costume-request@andrew.cmu.edu Topics: Corset image. Re: Gibson Collars Size differences Re: Bombazine Anglo-Saxon and Viking Hats European Iron-Age ("Celtic") Clothing Padded Garments in Viking Age Europe Anglo-Saxon and Viking Belt-pouches Re: Size differences Re: Corset Bombazine Blues Corsets Fashion Magazines Oriental Knot Buttons Flat steel vs. spring steel Source for Fringe Re: Fashion Magazines ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 26 Apr 1996 13:14:34 -0500 (CDT) From: The Espresso Pegasus! Subject: Corset image. I remember some time ago, finding a 'human crossection' of a woman who had worn a corset, and showing where her intestines(and all the rest of it) had ended up. Does anyone know where/what this book is?... Thanks! ______________________.oO*Oo._______________________ You Can Fret Me, But You Cannot Play Upon Me--Hamlet ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Apr 96 15:44:04 est From: "Hilary Oak" Subject: Re: Gibson Collars FYI Gibson Lee Collars are still in business and their collars are very nice. If you only need a few, rather than 10 or 25, you can also get their collars individually from Amazon Drygoods in Iowa or Tuxedo Wholesalers in Arizona for about $3.00 each. HO! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Apr 96 15:14:07 CDT From: bednarek@tidalwave.med.ge.com (Dennis Bednarek Mfg 4-6971 ~BHOSVWZ#097) Subject: Size differences Someone wrote: >Anyone who has ever travelled in a Third World Country has surely had this >experience. I'm 5'4" tall, and feel like a giant! My husband -- at 6' -- is >the object of much curiousity! Actually I do not think it is simply 3 world countries. I'm personally 6'4" and have never experienced the feeling of being out of place with my hiefght in the US. However when in several European Countires I did notice myself towering over the norm. Ant these were NOT 3rd world countries. On the other hand when in Kenya I felt dwarfed by some of the 3rd world natives there. My belief is while nutrition is an important factor genetic is even more important. In the US we see a lot of mixing of blood lines today between Easter and Western Europeans which I believe could creat a new blood line itself which is characteristic of being larger than our ancestors. Lets not forget that the pure bloodlines of the 14th to 19th centry are greatly deminished in today America. We are the melting pot of all races and through this are developing our own race through generations. Dennis ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Apr 1996 15:38:21 -0700 From: gwjchris@ix.netcom.com (Bill and Glenna Christen) Subject: Re: Bombazine You wrote: > >Does anybody know of a source for bombazine (a twilled silk and wool >cloth)? Please reply to the list or send me e-mail as well! Thanks! Glenna Jo Christen gwjchris@ix.netcom.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Apr 1996 02:07:39 +0000 From: ben Subject: Anglo-Saxon and Viking Hats I am trying to find out more about the types of hats worn in northern Europe in the ninth to eleventh centuries and wondered if anyone out there could help. I have two main things I am trying to find out about: 1) Does anyone out there have any evidence from this period of English men of a non-military nature (i.e. civilians) wearing hats (with the notable exception of the well known manuscript showing the king and his Witan wearing their `dunces' caps'), or were hats seen primarily as the mark of a military man? 2) We are all familiar with the rather stylish `Viking' fur-brimmed leather hat, used by Viking re-enactors all around the world, but what evidence is there for its use in this period, particularly in western Scandinavia and the British Isles? Was it really used or is it another one of those items, like cross-gartered leg bindings and double-headed axes, that are more common in modern reconstructions than contemporary sources? I look forward to hearing from you. Ben Levick ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Apr 1996 02:07:41 +0000 From: ben Subject: European Iron-Age ("Celtic") Clothing Can anyone give me any details/patterns of the clothing worn in Northern Europe, and particularly the British Isles (let's avoid getting into a flame war over the definition of Britain), during the 'Celtic' Iron-Age (c. 500BC - 100AD)? I'm interested in types of garments, type of textiles, weaves, clothing fasteners, jewellery, etc. I'm also interested in other small personal items such as combs, pouches, knives, etc. One area of particular interest to me is belts and buckles. Were the belts worn at this time buckled leather belts, and if so what type of buckle was used? Were leather 'tie-belts' used? Were textile belts used, and if so were they knotted or did they have some kind of fastening. Please don't tell me to check out the Gundestrup Cauldron - I know this one well, and must admit personally I am not to sure about it's relevance in this context. Although it may have been made in a 'Celtic' area (Hungary) there is some doubt now as to whether it is a 'Celtic' piece (current theories seem to suggest that it was in fact made by Indian 'tinkers' working in Hungary, and the scenes depicted are actually from Indian rather than Celtic mythology, and perhaps this is also true of the costumes depicted). The subject of this item could well drag out into a major thread, although I must say I would rather avoid this as it has little to do with costume. I am also wary of references such as 'The Tain', 'The Book of Invasions', etc as these were written down long after the events they describe, and although oral tradition may have preserved original descriptions of garments, we can not be sure. I am mainly interested in sources from the period - pictures, carvings, descriptions by contemporary writers, or best of all, surviving garments. Thanks in advance. Ben Levick ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Apr 1996 02:07:40 +0000 From: ben Subject: Padded Garments in Viking Age Europe I am trying to find out more about whether padded armour was worn in northern Europe in the ninth to eleventh centuries and wondered if anyone out there could help. Does anyone out there know of any definate evidence for the use of 'gambesons' or 'padded jacks' in Northern Europe during the Viking Age? I know that there is evidence to show their use by the thirteenth century, but can find little evidence before this. I know that one or two of the Viking Sagas make references to garments of padded hide, but these were generally written down well after the events they describe, at a time when this sort of garment was well known. Also, if there is evidence for the existence of these garments, does anyone have any clues as to their construction (eg several layers of cloth sewn together, or two layers of cloth stuffed with rag/fleece/straw etc)? I look forward to hearing from you. Ben Levick ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Apr 1996 02:07:41 +0000 From: ben Subject: Anglo-Saxon and Viking Belt-pouches Many Viking/Anglo-Saxon re-enactors wear belt-pouches, but were they widely used at the time? If we look at what they are used for on a 20th Century Living History Site, they are mainly used for 20th century articles, namely wallets/purses, car keys, cigarettes, lighters, etc. Originally people may have had pouches containing money in the form of silver coinage, but surely this would be something only carried when a person was going someplace to actually spend it, not something worn as an everyday item. So what would the everyday Saxon, or Viking need a belt-pouch for? >From a general point of view I do not know of much evidence for pouches. It makes no sense for a warrior to have a pouch on a belt in combat as it would be far to easy to lose it on the field. Surely if pouches were in existence they would be worn underneath the main tunic, out of harms way. This argument might also go for on the average person in a town, too. There you may not lose it to an accidental cut of a weapon, but to have pouches in open view would surely be a target for a thief. Further to the above paragraphs, and going on the assumptions that pouches did actually exist, what forms of pouches existed at this time. Are we relying on middle age or continental ideas for the shaping of those that we currently have? Were the pouches simple drawstring bags, or were the more like a medieval purse with lid and suspension loops? I look forward to hearing from you. Ben Levick ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Apr 1996 17:10:45 -0700 From: gwjchris@ix.netcom.com (Bill and Glenna Christen) Subject: Re: Size differences You wrote: >However when in several European Countires I did notice myself towering over the norm...while nutrition is an important factor genetic is even more >important. In the US we see a lot of mixing of blood lines today between >Easter and Western Europeans which I believe could creat a new blood >line itself which is characteristic of being larger than our ancestors. > >Lets not forget that the pure bloodlines of the 14th to 19th centry are >greatly deminished in today America. We are the melting pot of all races >and through this are developing our own race through generations. I'm glad this is a costuming list and not a social science or related list. While I'm sure it is quite unintended this talk of pure blood lines, etc. gives me creepy reminders of Nazi rhetoric about Aryan race, etc. The only "pure" bloodlines around are possibly those of the peoples of incredibly isolated islands or other remote areas that have been physically separated from the rest of the world for as long as their legends record. The rest if the world are pretty mobile and mongrelized, which is what keeps us as diverse as we are. The modern world has merely speeded up the process. That said, I will also add that I agree that genetics is a big factor in both height and build. I felt like a giant in Italy and pretty average to short among the Danes (I'm of mainly Scandinavian descent.) As a historic note, 19th century European travelers in the U.S. frequently commented on how big the "native Americans" (as in born in the US, not Indians) were. A little of both perhaps...The eternal discussion of "nature vs. nurture" it seems. Back to historic costuming! Glenna Jo Christen gwjchris@ix.netcom.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Apr 96 13:12:15 -0500 From: "Augusta, Karen" Subject: Re: Corset - -- [ From: Augusta, Karen * EMC.Ver #2.5.02 ] -- I remember some time ago, finding a 'human crossection' of a woman who had worn a corset Does anyone know where/what this book is?... In Valerie Steele's book _Fetishes_there is a drawing showing a woman's torso, and ribcage - one half of the drawing is of a woman who had worn a corset throughout her life, the other half of a woman who had not. The difference of the shape of the ribcage is startling - a severly marked decending cone shape in the corseted woman. I don't recall where this drawing originally appeared, it looked 19th century....Also in this book there are some recent photographs of women (and men) who are "tight-lacer fetishists" - the record waist size being 13 inches for an adult woman (she is photographed, and is very weird!). I do know that in the 1870's Emperess Elizabeth was an extreme example of tight lacing, and she had a 19 inch waist - considered small for that time in Europe. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Apr 1996 16:02:26 -0500 (CDT) From: dwhite@io.com (dwhite) Subject: Bombazine Blues Hi, A couple of months ago I launched onto a long and fruitless search for bombazine. To the best I can determine it is no longer available. I tried stores in LA, San Francisco(Britex), Houston and Broad St. in Maryland with no luck. All but Britex had never even heard of it. Dawn Jacobsen was helping me in my search and this is what she wrote. >The original fabric had a hand similar to taffeta, but without the shiny quality, and there just aren't any mills in the world producing the hard-twist >wool worsted needed to create the fabric. I've been advised that there is >another fabric (drat it, I've forgotton the name, and my informant is off >playing war this weekend), but it is for a slightly later period (1870s), and >the present-day version is "slubby" and unsuitable for 19th Century purposes >(slubs were considered flaws), and is horribly expensive, to boot (about >$45/yd). > >Sorry about the wild goose-chase. 8( > >Some other possibilities: > >Finding another fabric that has the approximate appearance and hand of >bombazine. This is difficult, but possible. A few years ago, there was a fabric >on the market for making raincoats, that was a nylon version of bombazine, and a >pretty close approximation to the real stuff. I don't think that is available, >though. > >Using a high-quality black wool or heavy cotton might also fill the bill, >particularly if you are portraying people living in Texas at the end of the ACW. > >Finally, if you're _really_ feeling flush, you can contact Constance La Lana, >and purchase real hand-woven wools. Unfortunately, I don't have a swatch card >for Constance, but you can contact her at: > >Constant La Lana >Sunflower STudio >2851 Road B1/2 >Grand Junction, CO 81501 >(719) 243-3409 > >She usually has a 20-yard minimum on fabrics, as all are custom woven. She may >even be able to recreate some bombazine for you. > >The other person to contact if you are interested in custom, hand-woven goods >is: > >Rabbit Goody Wools & Cashmere >Bramble Bridge Weave Shop >21 Main St. >Cherry Valley, NY 13320 >(607) 264-8400 > >Good luck! I hope you are able to find something that will work. > >Dawn Jacobson >74647.1271@compuserve.com If anyone finds any Bombazine or acceptable substitute please let me know. Thanks, Dana White dwhite@io.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Apr 1996 15:50:11 -0800 From: "R.L. Shep" Subject: Corsets things interesting often come accross my desk and today one did that might appeal to those of you who send so many messages about corsets: LADIES' VICTORIAN UNDERWEAR #100: 2 corsets, chemise and drawers. Misses sizes 6 -26, B C and D cup. Average difficulty. Perfect for all Victorian Events 1837-1900. Historically correct with complete instructions and illustrations (that's what it says). Anyway these are patterns, in a packet from: Laughing Moon Mercantile JoAnn Bowser p.o. box 21879 San Jose, CA 95151-1879 price $12.00 + $2 shipping (CA add tax of course) lots of extras like "List of Corset Supplies Sources" Bibliography" "Complete Sewing Instructioons," etc. I even found an email address: All I can say is that the materials look interesting. R.L. Shep ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Apr 1996 20:11:30 -0400 From: Ladnier@aol.com Subject: Fashion Magazines I am working on a research paper on color names for costumes. The paper covers several centuries. I am looking for the original colors names used at the time. Question: I am looking for people who have fashion magazines from 1850-1920. If you are one of these lucky people who has access to one, can you please check for actual colors names for the period. I am not looking for common names of colors, such as green, gray, purple... I need the fashion colors, such as squirrel, magenta, London mud, Bird of Paradise... I have searched all around my area and the closest magazine I can find is a hundred miles away. My paper is due Tuesday! Help! Please Email me direct. Thanks, $$$ $$$ $$$ $$$ $$$ $$$ $$$ $$$ $$$ $$$ $$$ $$$ $$$ $$$ $ $$ $$ $$ $$ $$ $$ $$ $$ $$ $$ $$ $$ $$ $$ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ Pennies from Heaven, where it’s always reigning money, or at least my kids think so. Penny E. Ladnier, Virginia Commonwealth University s0peladn@cabell.vcu.edu $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $$ $$ $$ $$ $$ $$ $$ $$ $$ $$ $$ $$ $$ $$ $$$ $$$ $$$ $$$ $$$ $$$ $$$ $$$ $$$ $$$ $$$ $$$ $$$ $$$ $ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Apr 1996 21:08:36 -0500 (CDT) From: Richard Hintsala Subject: Oriental Knot Buttons I am in the process of doing a series of garb for the court of Christopher in Calontier (SCA). Most of the research for it has been completed but I am having trouble finding a source for duplicating the fabric knot buttons prevailent on Mongol and Oriental caftans. Would appreciate any sources or information on materials and technique needed to do them myself. Sashatec Nicoli Koliskov ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Apr 1996 23:22:35 -0700 From: Joan Broneske Subject: Flat steel vs. spring steel I am trying to decide between using flat steel boning or spiral spring = steel boning in a victorian corset (1870's), do any of you on the list = have a preference and why? Thanks, Joan Broneske ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Apr 1996 23:32:57 -0700 From: Joan Broneske Subject: Source for Fringe Does anyone know of a source that carries inexpensive fringe? I want it to look good and swing good, just be cheap :) Thanks, Joan Broneske ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Apr 1996 13:39:38 -0400 (EDT) From: aleed Subject: Re: Fashion Magazines > I am working on a research paper on color names for costumes. The paper > covers several centuries. I am looking for the original colors names used at > the time. > Penny, Would you consider posting a copy of your paper to this list when you're done, unless it's too long? I, for one, would /love/ to read it. Drea ------------------------------ End of H-Costume Digest V4 #103 ******************************* A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, send the command lines: unsubscribe h-costume-digest subscribe h-costume end in the body of a message to majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com. Thanks and enjoy the list!