From: owner-h-costume-digest (H-Costume Digest) To: h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Subject: H-Costume Digest V4 #106 Reply-To: h-costume Sender: owner-h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Errors-To: owner-h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Precedence: bulk H-Costume Digest Wednesday, May 1 1996 Volume 4, Number 106 Compilation copyright (C) 1996 Diane Barlow Close and Gretchen Miller Use in whole prohibited. Individual articles are the property of the author. Seek permission from that author before reprinting or quoting elsewhere. Important Addresses: Send submissions to: h-costume@lunch.engr.sgi.com (or reply to this message). Adds/drops/archives: majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com Real, live person: h-costume-request@andrew.cmu.edu Topics: Pleating re: softening linen RE: kilts Halberds, partisans, etc. Re: Softening linen RE: kilts 17 inch waist Re: Marriage Ragtime Tango Tea in San Francisco Bay Area 1840's Bodices Bombazine Tartan Fabric Re: Odd Historic Fads RE: Halberds, partisans, etc. maillist Re: 1840's Bodices rear-closing bodices a thank you for anglo saxon sources Waistlines ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 30 Apr 1996 12:24:34 -0400 From: Dale Loberger Subject: Pleating Catherine Beecher, in her "Treatise on Domestic Economy" (published ca. 1841), says "the rule for gathering is to take up two threads and skip four." This produces a pleat which looks very much like smocking pleats. I have done it like this many times with great success producing beautiful, even pleats. Before you start, sit down and make yourself comfortable. Susannah Eanes, Mantua Maker and Fine Tailoring ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Apr 96 17:05:03 UT From: "Susan Carter" Subject: re: softening linen If you must choose to use the dryer method add lots of clean sneakers to batter the fibers into softness rather than just blowing them away. A really good method would be to find someone with an old box mangle. The breaking down of the fibers that softens the linen is more one of flattening, and it makes them smoother too. Su Carter sucarter@msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Apr 1996 14:22:38 -0500 (CDT) From: "SHERYL J. NANCE" Subject: RE: kilts >The clan I would be working with is Davidson - is there any way for me to >purchase the tartan without a trip over-seas? Thanks! Searching the Usenet groups, I found a few places you might try for tartans. These came from the alt.fairs.renaissance group and the rec.org.sca group. I don't have any personal experience with any of these companies. Celtic Shoppe The Oaks 21269 Stevens Creek Blvd Cupertino, CA (sorry, no ZIP was given) (408) 252-3046 The Scottish Lion Import Shop PO Box 1700 Route 16 North Conway, NH 03860-1700 1-800-356-9032 Dunedin Scottish 5402 Airport Blvd Tampa, FL 33634 1-800-237-5836 Scottish Country Shop 3568 SE Powell Blvd Portland, OR 97202 (503) 238-2528 HTH! Sheryl J. Nance ...one of the secret masters of Kansas City MO Public Library the world: a librarian. They p_sheryl@kcpl.lib.mo.us control information. Don't ever p**s one off. - Spider Robinson, _The Callahan Touch_ (Opinions expressed in this message do not reflect the viewpoint of the Kansas City MO Public Library.) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Apr 96 20:14:25 UT From: "Susan Carter" Subject: Halberds, partisans, etc. Historic costume people- It just occurred to stupid me that you folks may be able to point me in the direction of help with some stuff that comes up here every fall for Muster Day but is far outside of my usual field. Things like tassels on partisans and halberds, strings for bandoleers, flags/ensigns ,etc. are all textile stuff, so they come to me and I'd love to say 'Oh, I just saw a halberd with a neat tassel on it and I know just how to make it and have the stuff right here, just a moment' or some such satisfying answer. Do any of you know where I can find this sort of info, or folks I could contact, or a list for 16/17 cent. English military? Thanks, Su Su Carter Weaver (508) 746-1622 ext.214 Plimoth Plantation sucarter@msn.com Box 1620 Plymouth, MA 02362 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Apr 96 13:17:19 PST From: Kat@grendal.rain.com (June Russell) Subject: Re: Softening linen Jaelle/Judy wrote: :I need help in speeding the softening process of linen. :Does anyone know of anyway to speed up the softening process? We've got :some folks in clothes that just don't have enough drape yet & we don't :want to wait 5 years ... I've been told that wetting it, freezing it, then beating it with sticks softens it up a lot. (Much better than what they said at the Moravian living history site in Salem: put it on the servants to wear until it's soft enough.) Kat Kat ( June Russell ) pacifier.com!grendal!kat kat@grendal.rain.com Heu! Tintinnuntius meus Sonat! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Apr 1996 16:45:33 -0700 From: Cheryl Melnick Subject: RE: kilts I tried calling the following people who are local to the San Francisco Bay Area regarding (Clan) yardage from Scotland and this is the response I recieved: Scotch House-Sweaters from Scotland 415-391-1264 187 Post Street, San Francisco, California 94108 They do not carry yardage in stock, but will do special orders for you. Price is based on weight of material, cloth desired and availability. If you live near this store, they have swatches available for you to look at Scottish Tartan Shop Inc 415-771-1898 840 Post, San Francisco, California 94109 They are on vacation until the 6th of May. I have never special ordered from either of these people and am not familiar with their service Good luck Cheryl _______________________________ Cheryl Melnick General Manager Sessionware Inc. cheryl@sessionware.com 408-559-7799 http://www.sessionware.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Apr 1996 21:41:24 -0500 (CDT) From: The Espresso Pegasus! Subject: 17 inch waist I was just watching the Pre-Movie stuff for Barb-Wire... staring Pamela Anderson, and she was talking about the leather and rubber costumes... and the corset that did give her a 17 inch waist.. But then... supermodels aren't "the norm" Sarahj ______________________.oO*Oo._______________________ You Can Fret Me, But You Cannot Play Upon Me--Hamlet ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Apr 1996 20:01:57 -0700 From: savaskan@electriciti.com (Julie Adams) Subject: Re: Marriage >> But in terms of the average population the bulk were >agricultural workers even to the mid-1800's even in England...There have >been many studies of church marrraige records which sho the average age of >marraige amoung the general population was around 13or 14 until quite >recently... The church marriage studies I have seen which discussed Elizabethan and Tudor England have all indicated that women made their first marriage in their early-to-mid 20s in England, like Caroline wrote, not 13 or 14. The reading I have done indicated that sexual taboos generally were not as strict for peasants, so they did not have to marry to have sex, so it wasn't until it became a big moral issue that they started marrying younger...This is also corroborated by many folk songs (though the ones I am thinking of were of later period than this...) >>This borne out in even earlier periods by the Domesday book in the >beginning of the Norman period...most people were peasants who worked the >land. It is important to be conscious of time and location. Norman England was a whole lot different than Tudor England. In Early 16th century Germany, a woman normally married between 19 and 25, and many times later, depending on what their _father_or_other_male_guardian_ thought about the acceptablity of suitable men. Many women made their first marriage after age 25. Changing the subject a bit.... In Nurnberg, the women wore a really astonishing "bridal crown". UGGGGLLLLYYYY!! It was usually a pill box style, often with a wider flaring top. It could be quite large. It was often decorated all over with odd bits of colored beads and spangles, sort of reminiscent of something Carmen Maranda would have worn, just missing a few fruit.... There are several surviving examples in various milinery exhibits and I have a good picture in a Folkkunst book from Germany as well as many woodcuts showing the bridal procession. It is very silly and not a bit romantic I am afraid...In the woodcuts there are some that don't look too bad, until you realize that the beeds might have been in bright colors. Actually there is a Durer painting of one that is tastefully done in gold and pearls...Does anyone else know of clothing that was worn in history which was not what we would think of as "romantic" and maybe even seems a bit silly? Julie Adams ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Apr 1996 22:07:09 -0700 (PDT) From: Allan Terry Subject: Ragtime Tango Tea in San Francisco Bay Area There will be a Tango Tea at Ardenwood Historic Farm on Monday May 27 (Memorial Day), from 2:00 to 3:30 p.m. The event includes tango and maxixe performance and instruction by Allan Terry and Frances Grimble, tea and sweets, and admission to the entire park. No partner required. Ragtime attire optional. Advance registration is encouraged (though not required) to help Ardenwood plan their catering. The dancing will be held at: The Tea Garden Ardenwood Historic Farm 34600 Ardenwood Blvd. Fremont, CA 94555 (510) 636-1684 (registration and information; ask for "class 963") Admission $12. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 01 May 1996 09:20:44 -0400 From: Dale Loberger Subject: 1840's Bodices I have run across someone who adamantly insists that in the 1840’s, women rarely wore front-closing bodices. As a matter of fact, she forbids people to wear them on her site, which is a rural farm in 1845. I want to disagree but have no concrete evidence right now that she is wrong. For one thing, I wonder what they did if they were nursing? I know that in the ‘50’s and ‘30’s there were plenty of front closing gowns, and I have seen several pictures of ‘40’s gowns that could close in the front but am just not sure. All of my ‘40’s patterns do close in the back, but as I said, the dilemma is what if you are nursing and can’t wear gowns that close in the back right now? Would it have been so unusual that anyone who wore a front-closing gown would automatically have been assumed to be a nursing mom? What do you folks know about this? This woman believes that if it closes in the front, it must be either a ‘50’s or a Civil War era gown, and I just find this hard to believe. Susannah Eanes, Mantua Maker and Fine Tailoring ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 01 May 1996 09:23:04 -0400 From: Dale Loberger Subject: Bombazine I am conversing with a noted weaver in PA who thinks he can make me some bombazine, especially with the amount of interest generated here about it. Thanks so much to everyone who responded with tips and information. Will keep you posted. Susannah Eanes, Mantua Maker and Fine Tailoring ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 May 1996 09:50:34 -0400 From: MamaGrant@aol.com Subject: Tartan Fabric All: You can find the tartans of all the clans (both the modern interation and the "ancient") through a catalog in the U.S. called "The Scottish Lion". I don't have a copy handy at this time, but they have an 800- number for ordering. Try directory assistance. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 May 1996 11:01:30 -0400 (EDT) From: aleed Subject: Re: Odd Historic Fads > anyone else know of clothing that was worn in history which was not what we > would think of as "romantic" and maybe even seems a bit silly? > > Julie Adams - ------------------------------- How about those huge chopine stilt-shoes worn by Venetian nobility? They look like a hellish outgrowth of 70s platform shoes. Drea ------------------------------ Date: 01 May 96 09:50:00 GMT From: Mrs C S Yeldham Subject: RE: Halberds, partisans, etc. Military stuff is not really my area, but you could try the Trayned Bandes of London groups, 1588 - 1649 (mostly American groups, one English). Their Web page is http://www.rmc.ca/~nusbache/bandes.html, which has some very good links and some contact addresses. If you haven't got web access let me know and I will find appropriate addresses. It does refer to a newsletter Moderne Aviso, contact Kent and Mary Aist, 9512 Dubarry Avenue, Seabrook MD, USA 20706-4025. or MAist@aol.com Hope this helps. Caroline ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 May 1996 08:11:01 -0500 From: heldo3@world-net.net Subject: maillist We are members of the SCA and would like info on women's costuming, specifically late 11th-early 12th Century Middle England (Warwickshire). Do you have any suggestions on that time period? We've been able to find very little historic data, NO patterns, or good pictures. What we have found has come off of elongated statues and whale-bone carvings. We need this ASAP as we are going to an event 10May. We would appreciate what you could recommend.Thanks so much, Lee & Michele Hoermann heldo3@world-net.net ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 May 1996 10:57:01 -0700 From: gwjchris@ix.netcom.com (Bill and Glenna Christen) Subject: Re: 1840's Bodices You wrote: > >I have run across someone who adamantly insists that in the 1840’s, >women rarely wore front-closing bodices. I have to agree with her, especially since she said rarely instead of never. Based on photographs and the few original dresses I've seen all of them have back closures as far as I can tell. As with most everything, there may be exceptions, I just haven't seen them yet, and I feel safe in saying that that's what they'd be, exceptions. >I wonder what they did if they were nursing? Would it have been so >unusual that anyone who wore a front-closing gown would automatically >have been assumed to be a nursing mom? Excellent questions! Perhaps they wore a front closure wrapper when they were at home and nursing. I have seen a couple of these from the late '50's and '60's. Most women back then didn't have to spend the extended periods of time away from home as working women do today. I'd like to hear from anyone else who has real evidence on this one. > This woman believes that if it closes in the front, it must be either >a ‘50’s or a Civil War era gown, and I just find this hard to believe. There are many other clues than where the closure is on a dress to determine the date of the dress. Sleeves tended to be narrow if not tight in the 1840's and widened out considerably in the '50's and '60's, especially at the elbow. Curves came back into fashion in the '50's as well. Those are just a few examples of the differences. "Dressed for the Photographer" gives very good descriptions of typical fashion features of each decade with photos to show these features. Glenna Jo Christen gwjchris@ix.netcom.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 01 May 1996 14:30:24 -0400 (EDT) From: FALCON@SNYCORVA.CORTLAND.EDU Subject: rear-closing bodices Please let me begin by saying that 1840's is _way_ out of my area of interest... >I have run across someone who adamantly insists that in the 1840= =92s,=20 >women rarely wore front-closing bodices.=20 I have to agree with her, especially since she said rarely instead of= =20 never. Based on photographs and the few original dresses I've seen a= ll=20 of them have back closures as far as I can tell. As with most=20 everything, there may be exceptions, I just haven't seen them yet, an= d=20 I feel safe in saying that that's what they'd be, exceptions. =09In the original post, I believe it was mentioned that the style wa= s predominantly front closing in the 1830's and 1850's, the time surrou= nding the period on question. I am just wondering if the style would have chan= ged so radically for just ten years before changing back. =09Again, I know nothing about this time period, but it just struck m= e as kind of odd... Bernadette ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 01 May 1996 14:33:03 -0400 (EDT) From: FALCON@SNYCORVA.CORTLAND.EDU Subject: a thank you for anglo saxon sources I just wanted to thank all the kind people who helped me with the reconstruction project for my Anglo-Saxon class. The clothes are almost finished (sewing by hand is kind of fun, I have found...but terribly time consuming for me!) and the paper is well on its way. Mt professor is rather bemused about my fervor for the subject, but he is enjoying all that he has learned about it. Thanks again! - --Bernadette ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 01 May 1996 15:39:28 CST From: TOMBGUARD Subject: Waistlines I know that this may be a bit off the subject, but here goes. I was a member of the Army Honor Guard in Washington D.C. In 1988 I was 6'1" tall and about 165 pounds. Over my military blues uniform I wore a ceremonial belt that measured 24". Now I am not strangely shaped, but if I held my posture a certain way, I could pull off wearing that belt and uniform and have the appearance that was called for. I think that sometimes form and function combine. There may have been times, perhaps, that a certain posture was called for and the women would wear a smaller or tighter corset, etc. If you think that they were as all functionally mind, well I have to disagree (and I believe some men will also) after wearing an 18th century mens coat and attempting to keep the proper posture of the day. It takes almost as much work as being a soldier in the Honor Guard did. Of course this is theory. Robert Robert H. Neidlinger NEIDLRH@WKUVX1.WKU.EDU "The Tomb Guard" Robert.Neidlinger@BGAMUG.COM "Ask me a question and I'll reply, Cottleston, Cottleston, Cottleston Pie" Winnie the Pooh ------------------------------ End of H-Costume Digest V4 #106 ******************************* A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, send the command lines: unsubscribe h-costume-digest subscribe h-costume end in the body of a message to majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com. Thanks and enjoy the list!