From: owner-h-costume-digest (H-Costume Digest) To: h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Subject: H-Costume Digest V4 #109 Reply-To: h-costume Sender: owner-h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Errors-To: owner-h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Precedence: bulk H-Costume Digest Sunday, May 5 1996 Volume 4, Number 109 Compilation copyright (C) 1996 Diane Barlow Close and Gretchen Miller Use in whole prohibited. Individual articles are the property of the author. Seek permission from that author before reprinting or quoting elsewhere. Important Addresses: Send submissions to: h-costume@lunch.engr.sgi.com (or reply to this message). Adds/drops/archives: majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com Real, live person: h-costume-request@andrew.cmu.edu Topics: Re: chopines and silliness Fwd: 1840's Bodices RE: softening linen Uncomfortable postures skirt regulations Reenactment Question Youth Corsets Re: Youth Corsets Re: Youth Corsets Re: satin piping 1800 Regency costume Re: 1800 Regency costume Jane Eyre 1800 Regency Costume Corded cloth and milled caps Greek mythology Re: H-Costume Digest V4 #107 Re: Chopins and silliness ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 2 May 1996 20:29:14 -0600 (MDT) From: gottfred@agt.net (Jeff Gottfred) Subject: Re: chopines and silliness My personal favorite silly fashion was the men's basket hat in Japan in the Tokugawa era (ca 1700's, I think). This was cylindrical basket worn over the head; it reached almost to the shoulders, so as to conceal the identity of the samurai visitors to the geisha quarter. (Yes, there was an opening big enough to see through). It looked something like this: ______ /------\ | ____ | |-|0 0|-| |-| ' |-| |-| o |-| |_| |_| - --Angela Gottfred (no, it's not a self portrait) gottfred@agt.net ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 May 1996 11:28:11 -0400 From: Booboopies@aol.com Subject: Fwd: 1840's Bodices Suzanne, and other interested list members: The following message is from Saundra Ros Altman of Past Patterns who wrote me in response to a question regarding back-closing bodices in the 19th century: - --------------------- Forwarded message: > From: pastpat@thepoint.net (Saundra Altman) To: Booboopies@aol.com Date: 96-05-02 16:34:18 EDT Dear Karen, Please tell Suzanne that bodices openend in the front throughout the 19th century, the 1840s was no exception. For one thing sacks and wrappers open up the front and they were worn by rural women. Where is this site that does not believe that women had bodices that opened up the front in the 1840s? Does she need photocopies of pictures of front opening 1840s wrappers, sacques and dresses? S. Past Patterns The Historical Pattern Company PO Box 2446 Devoted to Accuracy Richmond, IN 47375-2446 Voice: 317-962-3333, FAX: 317-962-3773 - --------------------- - -- I will be happy to forward any responses or questions to Saundra. Karen ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 May 1996 10:55:23 -0700 (PDT) From: Irene Joshi Subject: RE: softening linen From personal experience I can tell you, please do not use chlorine bleach on linen. I did so on a linen damask shift and lost the threads in one direction from a major portion of the garment. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 May 1996 15:31:20 -0400 From: mhamilto@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Marsha Hamilton) Subject: Uncomfortable postures >>..... >>There was most definitely a specific posture aspired to in the 18th century. >>Young girls, particularly among the better sort, were put into stays at a >>very early age, sometimes as early as 4 years old (G Washington's step >>daughter Patsy was given stays at that age), in order to conform the figure >>to the desired inverted conical shape.... ........ If it was normal for female shoulder blades >to nearly touch was this due to permanent deformity, or a temporary position >held for fashionable pose ? This is an interesting discussion. I don't know how old many of you are but I remember back in the 50's and 60's we used to do all sorts of terribly uncomfortable and non-rational things to look a certain way. I remember stiff net petticoats that made our legs red and scratched. I remember trying so hard to sit straight with my knees together so people couldn't see up my miniskirts. I remember bending over to pick up things in a miniskirt where you put your knees together and kneeled, back straight, and leaned down with one arm so as not to show one's underwear. I remember horribly uncomfortable elastic girdles (yes, in junior and senior high--corsets on children was still practiced in my lifetime) with those awful little widgets that held up the stockings and dug into one's flesh when sitting. Remember wearing large metal rollers at night to get those great big curls? That wasn't very comfortable. And those tight cotton sundresses of the late 50's-early 60's (yikes I saw some in a Bloomingdales catalog for this season!) had waists so tight it hurt to pull them on over one's bosom. I almost broke an ankle on a gorgeous pair of black velvet platform sandals. I got rashes from making spit curls with too much Dippity-Doo. Remember when girls couldn't wear trousers to school? I had to wait in the snowy cold for up to half an hour in little short skirts and coats because that was the fashion (and school rules) in the 60's. That isn't much stupider than women and children in light muslin gowns in winter in the 1810-20's. Perhaps the strange behaviors of the past are only obvious because of their distance. How about girls today who pour themselves into size 2 blue jeans that are so tight they can't bend to sit down. Ah, fashion. Humanity is your slave. Marsha ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 May 1996 19:00:10 -0500 (CDT) From: The Espresso Pegasus! Subject: skirt regulations > > Remember when girls couldn't wear trousers to school? I had to wait in the > snowy cold for up to half an hour in little short skirts and coats because > that was the fashion (and school rules) in the 60's. That isn't much > stupider than women and children in light muslin gowns in winter in the > 1810-20's. This was not so far off... I had my Catholic Education, from 1982 -1990 uniforms and all, In Northeastern Wisconsin, Land of the30dregree below Plus lake Michagain wind chill temperatures.... WE had just little Polyester skirts and blouses, and a swater/jacket, to keep us warm while we waited over a half an hour in the cold and snow, to get on a cold bus. And at Recess, everyone was made to go outside, and the girls were not allowed to stand in the little niche near the door.. 5 feet away from the building, and into the windchil was the rule. IN 1988 they finally let girls wear navy slacks from November 20th-March 1st. That was a relief for our windburned legs, and a wintertime remedy for the boys looking up our skirts. Take Care! Sarahj ------------------------------ Date: 03 May 96 16:53:17 -0700 From: "SNORTON.US.ORACLE.COM" Subject: Reenactment Question > Stacey asked: > Where would a journalist live in 1840s - 1860s London? One possiblity is to find out where Dickens lived when he was working as journalist. You could probably get this out of any good biography. The areas that come to mind as possiblities are Clerkenwell Road and Farringdon Road. You might also call the Daily Telegraph Information Library. This is a wonderful resource. It used to be free but, now they do charge a small search fee. They have tremendous resources (most of the records for the Daily Telegraph and the Morning Post -- both papers were started some time in the 19th century). Good hunting! Sally Norton snorton@US.oracle.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 May 96 21:33:11 CDT From: bednarek@tidalwave.med.ge.com (Dennis Bednarek Mfg 4-6971 ~BHOSVWZ#097) Subject: Youth Corsets Someone mentioned That in the time of Washington there is record of a 4 year old being put in stays. Well pushing to my knowledge of more modern time I do not find this surprising from first hand knowledge. One of my first recollection of my oldest AUNT (born about 1885) was of her trying to lace some of her child hood corsets upon my when I was probably around 1st grade age. The most impressive part I remember was her trying to lace up several smaller ones on me and how tight they were before she found one that properly fit. This was brought back to my mind several years ago when I was cleaning out my mothers attic with her and found my Aunts old chest. If I recall there were at a half dozen small corsets that laced up the back and were heavily boned. The larger sized ones were more of the modern spandex type material with a couple medium sized ones with front zippers or lacing. Presently I'm cleaning out my mother attic alone and have come across several black velvet and lace evening gowns wich I date back to about 1925 to 1932. These are very slender lined gowns and my cutiosoty is were corsets worn with that type of gown in those days as well? Dennis ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 4 May 1996 10:46:21 -0400 From: Booboopies@aol.com Subject: Re: Youth Corsets In a message dated 96-05-03 22:55:00 EDT, bednarek@tidalwave.med.ge.com (Dennis Bednarek Mfg 4-6971 ~BHOSVWZ#097) writes: >Presently I'm cleaning out my mother attic alone and have come across >several black velvet and lace evening gowns wich I date back to about >1925 to 1932. These are very slender lined gowns and my cutiosoty is >were corsets worn with that type of gown in those days as well? I don't know much about fashions of the 20s and 30s, but the little I remember hearing from my mom who was quite young then was that not much of anything was worn under gowns of that period. If the movies of that time are adequate to judge by (my apologies for the rotten sentence construction), just look at Jean Harlowe, Joan Crawford, or Bette Davis. They couldn't have worn very much. The dresses would have shown every bump. I know Jean Harlowe preferred wearing nothing beneath her clothes, but she may have been the exception. Karen ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 4 May 1996 10:51:23 -0700 (PDT) From: Conrad Hodson Subject: Re: Youth Corsets I looked through a couple of my books; 'Whalebone to See-Through: A History of Body Packaging" by Michael Colmer and "Corsets and Crinolines" by Norah Waugh. Yes, they did wear something under their clothes. Some of them were basically long girdles; some with a few (very few) stays. Then there were some that were full body down to the thighs. Some of these (30's) included a bra. Some were smooth all the way down. Also I note that almost all of them are shown with a slip worn underneath. I hope this helps some. If you have any more questions or comments just give me a holler. Ok? Peace, Chris (The Cyborg) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 4 May 96 21:17:53 -0500 (CDT) From: textile@airmail.net (AnnMarie Wilson) Subject: Re: satin piping At 08:30 AM 5/2/96 -0800, Karen Lovejoy wrote: >Does anyone know of a source for satin piping, either here in the Seattle >area or a mail order source. Thanks > > Hmmm... I wonder > >Just a suggestion, but you could try using Rayon Rattail cording and applying it with a blind hem stitch in the seam allowance like you would piping. I've done this many times when I wanted a certain color and effect. Annie Sometimes it just isn't worth gnawing the leather straps off each morning... ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 05 May 96 09:04:13 From: "Craig Gobbi" Subject: 1800 Regency costume Hi, I've actually been a lurker on this list for about a month now and thought it was about time I ask a question. We are having our 1st Annual Costumer's Ball here in Australia in June. I know I've left it a little late but I have been looking at doing a 1800 Regency (or Empire) gown. My question is how were these dresses fastened if they were at all. With buttons down the back? Ties (not to be confused with back lacing)? Definitely not a zipper though. If you can help me at all, I would deeply appreciate it. KELLY GARLAND-GOBBI OS2 Warp Life without Microsoft Craig Gobbi ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 05 May 1996 09:30:17 -0400 From: ladyspnr@glasscity.net (Karri Riedel) Subject: Re: 1800 Regency costume >I have been looking at doing a 1800 Regency (or >Empire) gown. > >My question is how were these dresses fastened if >they were at all. With buttons down the back? Ties >(not to be confused with back lacing)? Definitely not >a zipper though. > Kelly, I have done some 1800 re-enacting and the empire dresses I made were all fastened up the back with pewter buttons and button loops (I hate hand sewing button holes, so I used a loop similar to the ones some men use on their uniforms)- or fastened in the front (drop front dress) with buttons and button holes. You could lace the back or use ties. I would suggest lacing or even hook and eyes for a ball gown. (To the best of my knowledge, hook and eyes were also correct for that period.) (Someone let me know if my limited knowledge is incorrect on this.) Good luck on your dress. Karri ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 5 May 1996 07:30:35 -0700 (MST) From: cwood@primenet.com (Ysabeau) Subject: Jane Eyre I saw Jane Eyre in the theatre yesterday and thought it was pretty good. I was wondering whether anyone else had seen it and what they thought about the costuming?? My inexpert eye noticed two things: I thought that the movie was supposed to take place in the 1840s, and in light of recent discussion on this list, I gave close attention to the bodices. Every one closed in the front and I had gotten the impression that the consensus on this list was very rare for this time period. Also the dresses of the little girl looked just like all the pictures of little girls I have seen from that era with one exception--they didn't have that strange boat neck that seemed to be very common in little girls' dresses. The friend I was with, who is a big Bronte fan, said that the wedding dress was a copy of the wedding dress of Charlotte Bronte, which I thought was rather neat. Anyways, I enjoyed the movie, but just wonder what everyone else thought. Ysabeau ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 5 May 1996 15:26:23 -0400 From: BarbMVD@aol.com Subject: 1800 Regency Costume > how were these dresses fastened? For quick results and no guesswork, I would suggest you latch on to a copy of Janet Arnold's "Patterns of Fashion 1-1660-1860". The explanations and diagrams of pattern pieces are easy to follow and documented, taken from extant gowns in collections of Salisbury, Victoria & Albert and Snowshill Manor. 5 patterns appropriate to your time period vary from a 2-button back closing to a "round-gown", morning, robes, evening wear and even include a riding habit. Lots of luck - enjoy Barbara M. Delorey Circle of the Rose ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 5 May 1996 16:23:11 -0600 (MDT) From: gottfred@agt.net (Jeff Gottfred) Subject: Corded cloth and milled caps My particular area of interest is the Canadian fur trade from 1774-1821. I am especially interested in trade goods, some of which are clothing. On these lists are two items that are not entirely clear to me, yet they occur often. 1. "corded cloth"--some editors of published versions of fur trade journals say "corded cloth" is corduroy. Are they right? And how IS corduroy made by hand, if it the editors are correct? 2. "milled caps"--everyone agrees that these are some kind of hats. One editor claims they could be made ("milled") from calico. My gut feeling is that they are actually knit toques (you know, the famous long red voyageur hats). But what does "milled" mean in this context and other clothing/textile contexts? Anyone? (I am happy to provide more data--but there isn't much more to add...) - --Angela Gottfred gottfred@agt.net ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 5 May 1996 19:08:26 -0400 From: LSCHWARZKO@aol.com Subject: Greek mythology I need to present clothing ideas for a movie about Hercules. Is it appropriate to ask if anyone on the list could e-mail me some sources for reference material? (I ask about appropriateness because I am doing the project for commercial purposes and didn't know if there is some rule about it). Also, I suspect there are some postings in the archives, but like an idiot, I haven't saved information on accessing them. Thanx in advance. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 5 May 1996 20:59:32 -0400 From: Morigianna@aol.com Subject: Re: H-Costume Digest V4 #107 In a message dated 96-05-02 12:26:03 EDT, you write: >Subject: Re: chopines and silliness What about Padded codpieces (so padded the chain held them up at the waist!) Or crotchless bloomers, or lead based face paint (ok it wasn't clothes), Hairdoo's with real food or live birds (the real food had to be covered at night by a wood cone to keep the rats away and you slept sleeping upright). Misty ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 5 May 1996 18:51:39 -0700 From: gwjchris@ix.netcom.com (Bill and Glenna Christen) Subject: Re: Chopins and silliness Misty.... You wrote: > Or crotchless bloomers, Actually, crotchless drawers ("bloomers" are a slightly different garment. They were worn on the same part of the body, but as public wear, not underwear.) are very practical considering they were worn under a chemise and corset. If the crotch seam were sewn up a woman would have to undress to go to the bathroom. Of course there are those who think corsets, etc. are silly garments as well, but that's another story. :-) Glenna Jo Christen gwjchris@ix.netcom.com ------------------------------ End of H-Costume Digest V4 #109 ******************************* A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, send the command lines: unsubscribe h-costume-digest subscribe h-costume end in the body of a message to majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com. Thanks and enjoy the list!