From: owner-h-costume-digest (H-Costume Digest) To: h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Subject: H-Costume Digest V4 #110 Reply-To: h-costume Sender: owner-h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Errors-To: owner-h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Precedence: bulk H-Costume Digest Monday, May 6 1996 Volume 4, Number 110 Compilation copyright (C) 1996 Diane Barlow Close and Gretchen Miller Use in whole prohibited. Individual articles are the property of the author. Seek permission from that author before reprinting or quoting elsewhere. Important Addresses: Send submissions to: h-costume@lunch.engr.sgi.com (or reply to this message). Adds/drops/archives: majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com Real, live person: h-costume-request@andrew.cmu.edu Topics: Costume silliness Gallery of Garb leather doublet Re: Corded cloth and milled caps Re: leather doublet Re: Celtic Wedding Re: Youth Corsets Re: Jane Eyre Pleating San Francisco Trip Re: Jane Eyre RE: Youth Corsets Re: Chopins and silliness Re: Odd Historic Fads Corded cloth and milled caps -Reply Split crotch drawers ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 5 May 1996 21:14:07 -0700 (PDT) From: Allan Terry Subject: Costume silliness Misty, Crotchless drawers are not "silliness." They are necessary to go the bathroom while wearing a corset. The drawers waistband is pinned under the corset, so you can't take them down. Fran Grimble ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 5 May 1996 22:35:51 -0700 From: Joan Broneske Subject: Gallery of Garb Hi All, I have just updated my Web page and have included my own personal = "Gallery of Garb". It is still under construction, and only has two = dresses. I will be adding more shortly. These are costumes that I have = created. Please stop by and let me know what you think. Thanks, Joan Broneske unicorn@calweb.com http://www.calweb.com/~unicorn/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 May 1996 08:45:32 -0600 (MDT) From: Peters Kimberley Subject: leather doublet Hi all, I am planning to make a leather doublet for the renn faire. It's going to be very simple - probably not authentic. Anyway, I would like to cut it out of one piece of thin leather (probably low-end suede) and then lace up the sides and front. The pattern shows little cap-like sleeves, so I'll probably lace those up the side too - just so they don't stick out like some sort of alien space suit thing. My question is this: What is the best way to poke holes in leather (for the laces)? Would grommets (is that what they're called?) work? I used to work with leather (about 20 years ago - in 4-H), so I have some vague recollections of cutting leather. Much Thanks, Kym Peters kpeters@rastro.Colorado.EDU ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 May 1996 11:16:43 -0400 From: rebus@madbbs.com Subject: Re: Corded cloth and milled caps At 06:26 PM 5/5/96 -0500, you wrote: > >1. "corded cloth"--some editors of published versions of fur trade journals >say "corded cloth" is corduroy. Are they right? And how IS corduroy made by >hand, if it the editors are correct? >--Angela Gottfred >gottfred@agt.net Real cordoroy is actually a type of velvet woven with an under-layer (like the backside of velvet and corduroy) and a layer entwined in the weave which is picked up with a stick of some sort into a loop pile, which is later sheared off. It is a very tedious process by hand. A good weaver working dawn to dusk was supposed to be able to weave a yard a day...I suspect that the traders were not trading the "cloth of kings" (cour du roy) with the Indians, but this is just an educated guess...Lili ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 May 1996 11:40:41 -0400 From: Kevin Richard-Morrow Subject: Re: leather doublet At 08:45 AM 5/6/96 -0600, you wrote: >I am planning to make a leather doublet for the renn faire. >Anyway, I would like to cut it out of one piece of >thin leather (probably low-end suede) and then lace up the....... > ......The pattern shows little cap-like sleeves, >My question is this: What is the best way to poke holes in leather >(for the laces)? Would grommets (is that what they're called?) work? > I don't know if grommets are period (renn faire is not my "gig"), but I don't think you'll find they work very well in thin "low-end" suede. They will most likly pull through and tear the leather. I would suggest you punch, rather then "poke", the holes with a hole punch. Tandy and others sell simple hole punches that are meant to be driven by a mallet. If you plan to do alot of leather work I would suggest one of the more expensive pliers like rotary hole punches made of cast metal. The cheap sheet metal hole punches bend out of shape too easily and rapidly become useless. I am not completely sure what "little cap-like sleeves" are but I do know that some doublets and westkits, right throuh the 18th century, had small wing like projections above the arm holes at the shoulder. If these are what you mean they are supposed to stick out slightly (at least in the 18th century). Check your pattern to see if it has instructions for leather. Often instructions suggest making your leather gament more snug to allow for the "give" of the leather. Kevin Richard-Morrow ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 May 1996 07:05:14 -0400 From: TULLYT@aol.com Subject: Re: Celtic Wedding I'm, obviously, not too great at this! This is a message I sent in January! Sorry, to whoever asked about Celtic weddings. Our daughters wedding, now long ago, was a try at a Celtic celebration. We even had a Celtic band! Everyone danced! It was so much fun! Her dress was white silk velvet, [I wish that I had known about this list then], it was "fun" to make. It was empire-style, v-neck, with trumpet sleeves. It was lightly fitted at the waist and hung straight in the front and in the back there was a deep V and train with self roses of hand dyed charmeuse and velvet at the small of the back and all along the train. Her veil was her sisters and it was held by a small crown of the roses and greenery. She carried fresh greenery, pine boughs, holly, etc.The bridesmaids wore fortuny style dresses, that my daughter painted and pleated. They each had a different heavy, silky, cord to wear around their waists or however they wanted. We tried to paint the silk to blend with our church's beautiful stained glass windows. The church, Episcopal, is quite "Celtic" itself. They carried fresh flowers, mixed with grapes, green and red and more greenery. The reception had a "groaning" board with lots of cheeses, fruits, breads and wine. I aged many, many yard of velvet, and found and redyed old flea market draperies, ragged edges just made it look better! I borrowed every tall candlebra that I could find and used many, many candles. She went away with another bargain find, and old white brocade cape. I emboidered the hood with old lace and beads from a twenties dress. Then I covered her shoes with more old embroidered silk. They went to Scotland on their honeymoon! Fitting! I've never had so much fun! I am an artist and have done installations with my silks and canvas, and this was like a giant installation, only in achurch, not a museum! Hope this gives whoever it was some ideas! Toni ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 May 1996 09:56:32 -0700 (PDT) From: Irene Joshi Subject: Re: Youth Corsets Youth corsets should probably be regarded as a continuation of "swaddling". Infants in Europe have for centuries been swaddled. Swaddling obviously kept the child quiet and immobile, not quite cuddled but I suspect that it must have felt somewhat the same to the child. Swaddling was justified so that the child "would grow right". And certainly in some parts of Europe, infants were swaddled well into this century. I recall reading of the horror felt by French villagers when an American couple, newly residing in their village, failed to swaddle their infant. The villagers felt that this was great neglect on the parents part and that the child would certainly grow crooked bones as a result. I believe this was either just post WWII or at the earliest in the interwar years. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 May 1996 11:45:47 -0700 (PDT) From: Shea Munroe Subject: Re: Jane Eyre I haven't seen the movie, YET, but I did want to comment that I thought the consensus regarding front vs. back closing bodices was that front closing bodices were very much in evidence during this period. Did I miss something here? - - Shea Munroe On Sun, 5 May 1996, Ysabeau wrote: > I saw Jane Eyre in the theatre yesterday and thought it was pretty good. I > was wondering whether anyone else had seen it and what they thought about > the costuming?? My inexpert eye noticed two things: I thought that the movie > was supposed to take place in the 1840s, and in light of recent discussion > on this list, I gave close attention to the bodices. Every one closed in the > front and I had gotten the impression that the consensus on this list was > very rare for this time period. Also the dresses of the little girl looked > just like all the pictures of little girls I have seen from that era with > one exception--they didn't have that strange boat neck that seemed to be > very common in little girls' dresses. > > The friend I was with, who is a big Bronte fan, said that the wedding dress > was a copy of the wedding dress of Charlotte Bronte, which I thought was > rather neat. > > Anyways, I enjoyed the movie, but just wonder what everyone else thought. > > Ysabeau > > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 06 May 1996 15:05:07 -0400 From: Dale Loberger Subject: Pleating Regarding clarification on the technique of cartridge pleating, gauging, stroke gathering, whatever you want to call it -- below is the method I use. It is based on extensive examinations of period garments (1790-1900) as well as directions enclosed with many of Saundra Altman's Past Patterns and Heidi Marsh's Patterns of the Era of the Hoop. The Catherine Beecher quote in my previous posting is only one primary source which explains how to do it; there are many more. For a quick glance up close at such pleating, look at page 37 of Calico Chronicle by Betty J. Mills, where the inside of an 1830's gown is photographed in detail. You will see clearly the tiny, evenly spaced pleats. As to the method itself, I too, use two or three rows of even running stitches, usually with 100% cotton quilting thread. First, I fold over and press the top edge under about one and a half inches. If I'm feeling perky I whipstitch the raw edge but this is not really necessary and is actually rarely seen in period examples. I begin my first row about 1/8 inch away from the folded raw edge and take up two to six threads of fabric per stitch (the equivalent of between 1/8 and 1/4 inch per running stitch.) I do use magnifying specs and try to sit someplace where the view is nice and I can look up every so often. You do have to be careful that you go through both layers of fabric (remember it is doubled due to the top edge being folded under) and that your stitches are relatively the same length on both sides. I use a thread that is a little less than twice as long as finished waistline measurement and a stab stitch (instead of gathering several stitches on the needle at once - -- it's harder to stay even that way.) I place my second and third rows (exactly below each previous stitch) about a quarter inch apart from each other and the first row. Yes, it is time-consuming, but it is really no more tedious than Hardanger or cross-stitching and it is so gratifying to see the finished pleats taking shape as I work. If you really hate the idea of pleating by hand for two or three days, try a smocking pleater. You won't be able to have an authentic folded top edge because the pleating needles break so easily, but its an acceptable substitute. Pleat four rows or so a 1/4 inch down from the top edge and stitch as you would a modern skirt or sleeve to join to the waistband, armscye or cuff. To join a hand-pleated piece to the rest of the garment (waistband or whatever), take a tiny stitch in each fold of each gather and attach to the ungathered edge. To ensure the gathers lay upright and even, lay your needle into each fold as you stitch it with a stroking motion (hence the name "stroke gathering"). When you are finished, knot the ends of each gathering thread at either end of each row. Smile, pat yourself on the back, and enjoy your beatuiful handiwork! (I should mention that this method is for lightweight worsted wool, broadcloth weight cottons, and fine to medium weight linens.) Finer or heavier fabrics may need more rows of pleats, smaller or slightly larger stitches, and stabilizing stitches on the back of the joining area. Hope this helps. Refs: Saundra Ros Altman, Past Patterns Heidi Marsh, Pages and Petticoats Betty J. Mills, Calico Chronicle Ellen Gehret, Rural pennsylvannia Clothing The WorkWoman's Guide, by a Lady (c. 1838) A Treatise on Domestic Economy,by Catherine Beacher (1841) Garments in the following collections and others: The Atlanta History Center The James K. Polk Memorial Homesite Historic Latta Plantation The Museum at Texas Tech Susannah's Heirloom , Ltd. Susannah Eanes, Mantua Maker and Fine Tailoring ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 06 May 1996 13:20:21 -0600 (MDT) From: SLW9Q@cc.usu.edu Subject: San Francisco Trip I am traveling to San Francisco this Thursday and I am wondering if anyone of you would be kind enough to tell me where I can find bookstores that carry books on fashion, historical or current. Also, I would like to know if there is any place that has displays or anything of historical costume related interests. I am doing a project on a particular fashion item that is 25 to 30 years old. I haven't had any particular item in mind, and I am wondering if anyone of you have any suggestion as where to go about finding them in SF. Thanks for helping me out! Meng-yen Wu SLW9Q@cc.usu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 06 May 1996 12:26:52 -0700 From: jamie@home.net (Jamie Nikkel) Subject: Re: Jane Eyre Ysabeau wrote: > > I saw Jane Eyre in the theatre yesterday and thought it was pretty good. I > was wondering whether anyone else had seen it and what they thought about > the costuming?? My inexpert eye noticed two things: I thought that the movie > was supposed to take place in the 1840s, and in light of recent discussion snip > > The friend I was with, who is a big Bronte fan, said that the wedding dress > was a copy of the wedding dress of Charlotte Bronte, which I thought was > rather neat. Charlotte Bronte got married in 1854 so that dress at least would be of a bit later style than typical 1840s. (Am looking forward to seeing the movie.) Jamie Nikkel ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 May 96 15:43:21 CDT From: bednarek@tidalwave.med.ge.com (Dennis Bednarek Mfg 4-6971 ~BHOSVWZ#097) Subject: RE: Youth Corsets After numerous replies like this. :> :> If you decide to sell anyof the corsets or gowns, I'd be interested :> purchasing them. Thanks for your post. It was interesting The actual present location of my aunts old belongings are unknown as she passed away about 20 years ago in her 90`s. As far as my mothers old rordrobe is concerned there are no under garments hence my prior inquire. My daughter seems to be a perfect size match for her old stuff and I'm not selling that stuff at this time. However there are loads of hats if someone in the Milwaukee area is intrested. I think they date from 1930's to 1960's. Dennis ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 May 1996 14:03:23 -0700 (PDT) From: Shea Munroe Subject: Re: Chopins and silliness Glenna, Regarding the wearing of crotchless drawers: I have read others describe the way undergarments were worn and it has been stated that the chemise was actually tucked into the drawers, forming another layer of "protection", so to speak, but still allowing for ease of taking care of the "necessities". I have seen living history demonstrations and photo layouts showing this also. It makes sense to me - have you wore the crotchless drawers? - they can make a modern woman feel a little insecure! What do think? Is this a case of re- enactors, however innocently, creating "facts"? Shea Munroe On Sun, 5 May 1996, Bill and Glenna Christen wrote: > Misty.... > > You wrote: > > > Or crotchless bloomers, > > Actually, crotchless drawers ("bloomers" are a slightly different > garment. They were worn on the same part of the body, but as public > wear, not underwear.) are very practical considering they were worn > under a chemise and corset. If the crotch seam were sewn up a woman > would have to undress to go to the bathroom. Of course there are those > who think corsets, etc. are silly garments as well, but that's another > story. :-) > > Glenna Jo Christen > gwjchris@ix.netcom.com > > > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 May 1996 18:47:37 -0400 (EDT) From: Elizabeth McMahon Subject: Re: Odd Historic Fads > > > How about those huge chopine stilt-shoes worn by Venetian nobility? They > > look like a hellish outgrowth of 70s platform shoes. > > True, but they were quite practical. Remember that we are talking about > Venice which was, in the very least, WET. Chopines not only helped to keep > your feet dry, but kept the ladies' dresses out of the muck. > Platform shoes! My personal opinion is that they were ugly then, and they are ugly now... But my understanding from looking at 16th C. fashion plates is that often gowns, especially those intended for promenading, were made to hem length to accommodate the height of the chopine, not to end at toe tip. This gives a rather different proportion of gown length than appears if you make the gown to flat foot length, with a lot more graceful skirt movement, but it doesn't do much to keep you hem out of the muck. My guess is that it started out as a fashion based on function, then conspicuous consumption led it to a fashionable extreme. (Some of the chopines extant are a foot or more tall - scary to walk on, if you ask me!) Also, the fashionable pose is frequently depicted, especially in 15th and 16th C. Italy, as including carrying several substantial hunks of skirt when walking, presumably to keep it out of the way. *-*-*-*-*-*- Beth at work, (sans) cat in lap (sometimes known as Mistress Elizabeth Talbot, Lady Gendy) Shouldn't I be sewing something? (probably) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 06 May 1996 16:15:08 -0700 From: Angela Rome Subject: Corded cloth and milled caps -Reply In response to Mr. Gottleib's request for information about corded cloth, I found reference to a woolen or cotten/woolen fabric called "cord" which was woven with a raised cord or ridge in the warp. It was comparable to today's pique. I found this reference in TEXTILES IN AMERICA 1650-1870 by Florence M. Montgomery, published by W.W. Norton and Co. Angela Rome (arome@mailer.scu.edu) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 May 1996 20:27:04 -0700 From: gwjchris@ix.netcom.com (Bill and Glenna Christen) Subject: Split crotch drawers You wrote: >it has been stated that the chemise was actually tucked into the >dawers, That was a topic of discussion for some time among women involved in Civil War living history. There is evidence for tucking and not tucking. (I've only heard about the tucking documentation) I've seen a number of "racy" stereo cards and the models who had as much as a chemise on didn't have them tucked in. >It makes sense to me - have you wore the crotchless drawers? - they >can make a modern woman feel a little insecure! I wear them well over half the weekends of the year. I've tried tucking and I hate it! It felt lumpy and uncomfortable. A friend of mine tried it and got the back of it wet while using the "necessary" (fortunately she had a clean one to change into!) Another friend prefers it. That I think is the real answer. Just as some women prefer briefs and others french cut bikini's women then had their preferences. As for feeling "insecure" in them, not at all. The two halves overlap slightly at the front and back waistbands. A chemise (tucked or not) and another petticoat worn under the hoops keep me very well covered. Glenna Jo "Drawers" Christen gwjchris@ix.netcom.com P.S. Karen K., If you're on this list too, I hope you don't mind that I borrowed your "title" :-) ------------------------------ End of H-Costume Digest V4 #110 ******************************* A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, send the command lines: unsubscribe h-costume-digest subscribe h-costume end in the body of a message to majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com. Thanks and enjoy the list!