From: owner-h-costume-digest (H-Costume Digest) To: h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Subject: H-Costume Digest V4 #112 Reply-To: h-costume Sender: owner-h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Errors-To: owner-h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Precedence: bulk H-Costume Digest Thursday, May 9 1996 Volume 4, Number 112 Compilation copyright (C) 1996 Diane Barlow Close and Gretchen Miller Use in whole prohibited. Individual articles are the property of the author. Seek permission from that author before reprinting or quoting elsewhere. Important Addresses: Send submissions to: h-costume@lunch.engr.sgi.com (or reply to this message). Adds/drops/archives: majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com Real, live person: h-costume-request@andrew.cmu.edu Topics: Thanks Re:Bodices Re: Thanks Re: 1840s Bodices Re: H-Costume Digest V4 #110 Cap Sleeves Re: H-Costume Digest V4 #110 Re: San Francisco Trip Re: foolish garments/Hercules goofy garb Trapped Drawers Re: San Francisco Trip Re: Drawers Drawers rashes, and other attrocities. help dying silk Drawers Corded cloth and milled caps Re: goofy garb ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 07 May 1996 22:19:36 -0400 From: Dale Loberger Subject: Thanks Re:Bodices Thanks to the chorus of voices and info on front closing bodices in the 1840’s. My husband’s machine was down the better part of last week and I just got most of your messages today. I should have called my good friend Saundra myself and asked her but I bug her so much about so many things and she is just about the busiest person I know! Anyway, it was gratifying to see my original thoughts shared and documented by so many. This is a support group, too, isn’t it? (To confide of our experiences with the Costume Nazis for comfort and reassurance and all that?!) Believe it or not, I had already shown the woman in question the pictures of front closing ‘40’s gowns in Calico Chronicle and others in books by Estelle A. Worrell, Millia Davenport, and Vanda Foster., and she frowned and just shook her head, stating that these must really be earlier or later gowns than they were claimed to be, or else the front closing was not functional, and the gown actually closed in the back. I felt like an idiot. I don’t know her background or her reasoning, and it seems even more odd when you know that her site depicts rural middle to lower class, to boot. All of your help with this gives me the guts to go back and speak with her again. I do want to re-enact at this site but it is imperative with a four-month old (who also re-enacts!) that I am able to nurse conveniently. And I just hate hitting brick walls that are unnecessary to begin with. Have left message with Saundra to please send pics & info she has to show this lady but due to professional courtesy I cannot reveal the site. This is my job, after all! ;-) Thanks again. You guys are great. Susannah Eanes, Mantua Maker and Fine Tailoring (Susan B. Loberger , Susannah’s Heirloom, Ltd.) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 May 1996 21:31:15 -0700 From: savaskan@electriciti.com (Julie Adams) Subject: Re: Thanks Re: 1840s Bodices Susannah Eanes wrote: > I do want to re-enact at this site >but it is imperative with a four-month old (who also re-enacts!) that I >am able to nurse conveniently. I can't imagine this woman has ever breastfed or she would know that it is imperative that a front opening be a part of the gown. In "The Workwoman's Guide", written in 1838, Plate 14 shows vertical pleats or pleats on a "V" on page 105. Petticoats are described on page 104 as what we would normally think of as a gown: Petticoats "Petticoats are made of calico, twill, dimity, cambric, and jaconet muslin, sometimes for mourning, or for wearing under thin dresses of silk and satin: for the middling and lower classes, they are of calico, strong dimity, calimanco, stuff, and bombazine: the are made in various ways, which will be described in the following pages, and the patterns given: the figures and the sizes of persons differ so essentially that scales will not be attempted. Petticoats are in three distinct parts--the skirt, the body, and the sleeves, the varieties of each will be treated in their turn." On page 106: Nursing Petticoats "For the convenience of those mothers who nurse their infancts, the petticoat body in front may be opened in various ways." On page 113: Nursing Gowns "These must vary according to the pattern of the gown. In a body with folds laid on, the openings must be made in the bosom-gore on each side, which button up, having a fold or flap of silk behind, to prevent any danger of taking cold." IMHO, a book published in 1838 for lower and middle class women would be used well into the 1840s. Sorry it took me awhile to respond, I have been busy with a 2 1/2 yr old...:-) The information on the book: The Workwoman's Guide by A Lady A facsimile reproduction of the original book by Opus Publications Inc. Post Road Box 269, Guilford, Connecticut 06437 ISBN 0-940983-00-1 It is supposedly used by Sturbridge Village, Sturbridge MA (617) 347-3362 Good Luck! Julie Adams ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 May 1996 21:33:07 -0700 From: thomas gladysz Subject: Re: H-Costume Digest V4 #110 At 08:24 PM 5/6/96 -0700, you wrote: > >I am traveling to San Francisco this Thursday and I am wondering if anyone of >you would be kind enough to tell me where I can find bookstores that carry >books on fashion, historical or current. Also, I would like to know if there >is any place that has displays or anything of historical costume related >interests. I am doing a project on a particular fashion item that is 25 to 30 >years old. I haven't had any particular item in mind, and I am wondering if >anyone of you have any suggestion as where to go about finding them in SF. >Thanks for helping me out! Please come to my store! I've been the costume/fashion book buyer for A Clean Well-Lighted Place for Books for years and I try to stock bunches of costume books. We have the various dover books of course, we stock corsets & crinolines, the Patterns of Fashion series by Arnold, and just about everything else I can dredge up. We only carry new books, but we do try to have a wide selection. We also have some really stunning hardcover pictorials. Right now we have _Fashion in Art : the Second Empire and Impressionism_ by Marie Simon. It's a pretty interesting book about what the clothes worn in the works of the impressionists ( was Sargent considered an impressionist?) reveal about fashion. Not just boring Freudian stuff, but interesting things like the craze for "historical clothing" during this period. It is also copiously illustrated with good quality colour photographs of garments and reproductions of paintings. It's $50.00 and well worth it. Sorry I got crried away. Anyhow, we are A Clean Well-Lighted Place for Books, we're at 601 Van Ness, San Francisco, 94102. We're open from 10am till 11pm. Our phone number is 441-6670. I'll be working on Thursday and I'm always glad to chat costuming and vintage fashions. The only other store I'd consider going to is Green Apple on Clement St. near 5th Ave. They get used costume books in occasionally. Big really expensice old stuff that I wish I could afford. Have a good trip Christy. ------------------------------ Date: 08 May 96 09:21:00 GMT From: Mrs C S Yeldham Subject: Cap Sleeves The reason I said ASCII couldn't represent what I meant, is because |\ | \ | | | | | / |/ Is precisely *not* what I meant! I meant that in order to get the sleeve to sit neatly (unless you *want* a la Klingon) *both* edges have to be curved |\ \ \ \ \ | | / / |/ Nope, doesn't work! The outer curve is usually gentler than the inner. I haven't tried a curved inner edge and a straight outer, but I would have thought a curved outer would sit better. Thanks for the info about the shoe stuff of Rialto. I would be grateful for any 16th or 15th century English info (food as well?) on there as I don't have access (my account is at work, and there are limits on access to bulletin boards etc - anything except Web pages and mailing lists is very limited.) Caroline ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 May 1996 12:55:35 -0400 From: Morigianna@aol.com Subject: Re: H-Costume Digest V4 #110 In a message dated 96-05-06 23:31:32 EDT, you write: >Crotchless drawers are not "silliness." They are necessary to go the >bathroom while wearing a corset. The drawers waistband is pinned under the >corset, so you can't take them down. Thanks for the info- Whenever I wear my corset(admittedly it's new) I wear knee length bloomers so my legs don't rub together and I get heat rash. I didn't know about pinning them so I haven't had a problem in the bathroom. I guess if you have a 14" waist your thighs wouldn't rub! :-) Misty ------------------------------ Date: 8 May 1996 12:06:56 -0700 From: "Agnes Gawne" Subject: Re: San Francisco Trip REPLY: RE>San Francisco Trip 5/7/96 I replied off the list yesterday but since the Clean Well Lighted Place for Books posted to the list I will add this info to the pool of knowledge Try Drama Books in San Francisco for some costume books, they are a theater book store but I have had good luck there. Black Oak Books in Berkeley is a used book store that often has good costume books, I have gotten some real treasures there in the past. The De Young Museum at Golden Gate Park often has some costumes on display. Contact Melissa Levinson, the costume curator, if you need to know ahead of time what is on display. Good luck and enjoy San Francisco. Agnes ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 May 1996 12:26:25 -0700 From: Susan Fatemi Subject: Re: foolish garments/Hercules For stupid garments for women: jumpsuits, catsuits, "playsuits", Donna Karen bodysuits, and more recently seen in dept. stores, a one-pc. "dress" with a split skirt (i.e. culottes) Possibly I missed some vital instruction in my life, but I cannot figure out how one attends to nature's call without getting completely undressed! No wonder there are long lines at the restroom! Re: Hercules costume. If you want to make him *really* authentic, he would be naked, with perhaps a lion skin (panther skin?) draped tastefully over one shoulder. Otherwise, any book on Greek art or mythology should give you some clues. (Hercules is of course, the Roman spelling, Herakles is the Greek. Maybe you could put him in a Roman tunic for modesty, but it wouldn't be authentic) >>I need to present clothing ideas for a movie about Hercules. Susan Fatemi susanf@eerc.berkeley.edu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 May 1996 16:22:37 -0400 (EDT) From: aleed Subject: goofy garb I have to say that late Elizabethan takes the cake for Most Absurd Fashion Statement of the Millenium. Those vast and all-encompassing ruffs, wheel farthingales and inhumanly long torsos were weird. No other way to put it. And how about pluderhosen? The first time I saw a pair, complete with beribboned and bepuffed codpiece, they looked like a combo between a deflated innertube and a drapery display at JCPenneys. Someone once told me--I believe it was on this list--about the short period in time during the turn of the 19th century when waistlines ascended to right below the bust but court fashion still dictated that panniers had to be worn. Women looked like walking tents. I'd love to find an original picture of this somewhere. Platform shoes, however, still top my personal list of sillinesses. Especially the ones with goldfish in the heels. Drea - ------------------------------- We've secretly replaced their dilithium crystals with new folgers crystals. Now let's watch them go to warp. - ------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 May 1996 16:03:21 -0700 From: gwjchris@ix.netcom.com (Bill and Glenna Christen) Subject: Trapped Drawers You wrote: >>Crotchless drawers >I didn't know about pinning them so I haven't had a problem in the >bathroom. The drawers aren't pinned with a pin, but pinned as in "trapped" or firmly held in place under the corset. Words are slippery things aren't they? :-) Glenna Jo Christen gwjchris@ix.netcom.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 May 1996 19:01:36 -0700 (PDT) From: Catnip Subject: Re: San Francisco Trip If you have time during your visit to SF, try to get over to Laci's in Berkeley. They're just across the street from the Ashby Ave. BART station. Nice selection of books and lots of wonderful stuff to ogle and purchase! - - Cat ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 May 1996 03:26:32 -0400 From: DiderotDC@aol.com Subject: Re: Drawers One hates to belabor the point but, I think calling the garment in question "crotchless" is a bit misleading. "Crotch-opening" might be a better discription, as all the examples of drawers that I've ever seen, closed with 2 or 3 buttons much like many contemporary "body-suits." As has been previously suggested this is for reasons of perfectly practical bathroom convinence. If anyone knows of truely crotchless [open & unfastened] bloomers I'd like to know what function [other than purely salacious] this feature might have preformed. Thanks ------------------------------ Date: 09 May 96 14:38:00 GMT From: Mrs C S Yeldham Subject: Drawers At Eastercon Frances (sorry, rest of name's gone - Guilia, do you remember?) gave a presentation on underwear, and showed original garments, some of the 18th century drawers were definitely two legs attached to a waistband, then she showed an example where the back was sewn together for about 6 inches - probably for ease of management. On thigh rubbing and heat rash, the best tip I have ever been given is to use dry stick deordorant on your thighs (I use it every day, in or out of tights). I don't know what it is called in the States but it looks like a firm stick of creamy/greasy baby powder, and really stops rubbing. Unlike creams/greases, it is not absorbed, so lasts all day. Natrel is one marketing name ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 May 1996 10:40:16 -0500 (CDT) From: The Espresso Pegasus! Subject: rashes, and other attrocities. When faced with rubbing legs, I tend to wear lycra capri tights, or longer biker shorts (so they don't ride-up) And if none are available.. Baby Powder is your best friend. Lotion and Talc... Take Care! Sarahj PS, still looking for wonderful medivael and costuming sites in southern France!... I will come back fully prepared to give dicertations. ______________________.oO*Oo._______________________ You Can Fret Me, But You Cannot Play Upon Me--Hamlet ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 May 1996 10:54:58 -0700 From: Heather Meadows Subject: help dying silk I just got the best deal and bought 20 yards of raw green silk for $100... the only problem is it is a little too bright for what I intend to use it for. I'm very used to dying cottons using Procion MX and Rit and Dylon etc. But I've never dyed silk or this large of a quantity of fabric at once and I'm looking for tips - I don't have a washer big enough to handle 20 yards of silk and I'm wondering what dyes will work best - I want to turn it from emerald to forest or hunter green. thanks! - -heather meadows godiva@bing.apple.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 May 1996 19:10:36 -0400 From: BarbMVD@aol.com Subject: Drawers This has been labored over enough to be ridiculous. In reply to CSY, please, Englishwomen and those in the colonies did not wear underdrawers in the 18th century,and it was well into the 19th before the practice was adopted. If you have a problem try the practical method of taking the back hem of your shift, draw it between your legs, bring it up and tuck it under your petticoat waistband, cord or whatever. This also keeps the drafts away in chilly weather. On many occasions groups of female reenactors (Rev War, etc.) have "gone regulation" in the field and worked the problems out (18th century mind-set). And to DiderotDC, there were no buttons or closing cords other than at the waist in the 19th century and the reasons have been most capably and thoroughly discussed and explained in the past week. Not salacious at all, but PRACTICAL- PRACTICAL! Barbara M. Delorey Circle of the Rose ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 May 1996 20:55:35 -0500 (EST) From: LACONSTANCE@delphi.com Subject: Corded cloth and milled caps Dear Angela, I, too, am interested in trade cloths of this era: > 1. "corded cloth"--some editors of published versions of fur trade journals > say "corded cloth" is corduroy. There are many types of corded cloth, besides corduroy. Bedford cord is one. > 2. "milled caps"--everyone agrees that these are some kind of hats. One > editor claims they could be made ("milled") from calico. I believe the reference to "milled" caps means felted. "Milled" is a specific textile term which means "fulled" (or subjected to controlled shrinkage) or "felted". I suppose they could have been the knitted tocques, but I don't know that these ever were actually milled after knitting. Constance La Lena laconstance@delphi.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 May 96 20:59:25 -0500 From: ejp@watson.ibm.com Subject: Re: goofy garb aleed writes: > Someone once told me--I believe it was on this list--about the short > period in time during the turn of the 19th century when waistlines > ascended to right below the bust but court fashion still dictated that > panniers had to be worn. Women looked like walking tents. I'd love to > find an original picture of this somewhere. There IS an original picture, to which I can give you only a lousy reference. :) Sorry. You need to find a reprint of "Galerie de Modes", and I do NOT mean the Dover book by that name. The Dover book is the right magazine, all right, but it doesn't reprint enough years. It only goes up to 1787, which isn't late enough. I believe the Galerie in the University of Arizona library, in the GT section or thereabouts, will have the picture you want. It's worth chasing down; it's a hoot and a half. :) cheers, ejp - -------- Elizabeth Poole Yorktown Heights, NY ejp@watson.ibm.com ------------------------------ End of H-Costume Digest V4 #112 ******************************* A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, send the command lines: unsubscribe h-costume-digest subscribe h-costume end in the body of a message to majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com. Thanks and enjoy the list!