From: owner-h-costume-digest (H-Costume Digest) To: h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Subject: H-Costume Digest V4 #120 Reply-To: h-costume Sender: owner-h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Errors-To: owner-h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Precedence: bulk H-Costume Digest Friday, May 17 1996 Volume 4, Number 120 Compilation copyright (C) 1996 Diane Barlow Close and Gretchen Miller Use in whole prohibited. Individual articles are the property of the author. Seek permission from that author before reprinting or quoting elsewhere. Important Addresses: Send submissions to: h-costume@lunch.engr.sgi.com (or reply to this message). Adds/drops/archives: majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com Real, live person: h-costume-request@andrew.cmu.edu Topics: Re: H-Costume Digest V4 #118 Re: Saddles Elizabethan blues re: 19th cent. Boots (and Pioneers) Re: Meanings of colors Re: Elizabethan blues Blue Re: Meanings of colors Corset fitting questions Re: Corset fitting questions Re: ancient English all-purpose saddle Narrow shoes 900 Years of English Costume Re: Saddles ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 17 May 1996 12:11:09 +1000 From: bclarke@metz.une.edu.au (Bronwyn Clarke) Subject: Re: H-Costume Digest V4 #118 >Barbara Delorey wrote: >900 Years of English Costume: from the Eleventh to the Twentieth Century by >Nancy Bradfield is detailed and well illustrated. It differentiates between >class, refers to colors, fabrics, men and women's clothing from head to toe. > >I have the 1987 edition pub. by Crescent Books, Brown Publishers. ISBN >0-517-61670-X > Barbara - is this a newer edition of her earlier book (circa 1970? - the name of which I can't remember!), with good black & white line drawings for each period, facing a page of text? Or is it a totally different book? Bronwyn Bronwyn Clarke, Assistant General Staff Development Officer, Personnel Services, University of New England, ARMIDALE NSW 2351, AUSTRALIA email: bclarke@metz.une.edu.au Phone: (067) 733431 Fax (067) 733721 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 May 1996 18:54:28 -0700 (PDT) From: "Alice Morgan" Subject: Re: Saddles David Marcus & Peggy Lamberson said something close to this: > > >>I actually find the 19th cent. cowboy saddles really uncomfortable and a > >>bit claustrophobic. I made some trashed antique trees into medieval > saddles > >>years ago. Eventually I'll get a new 19th cent. repro. ... > WHen I was a kid, a friend of mine had one of these saddles. We used to play > Wild West calvary with it. I can't remember that we ever put it on a horse, > though--it was on a stand. It was quite comfortable to sit in for a short > period of time, but I can't speak to what it would feel like to sit in it > for hours. Probably, one got used to it--callouses in the right places, etc. > But I can't imagine it was a fun process for people who weren't used to > _any_ type of saddle! The saddle gives plenty of support in the places where > you need it. The central cut-out is right under your crotch, and not having > anything there is actually nice (some new bicycle seats are made this way, > too). This is second hand, but I was talking to a professional saddler at one point and she stated that the McClellan saddles or that style are very popular with modern endurance riders, for the light weight (with reasonable comfort). Also, about the claustrophobic comment, keep in mind that western saddle is not designed as much for comfort as it is a working saddle, to keep the cowboy in the saddle and provide a strong attachment point for ropes leading to cattle, so the similarity to a jousting saddle is not accidental. The english saddle, including for the fox hunt does not have the same demands regarding roping and securing, hence the much smaller (non-existent) pommel and cantle. I was interested in civil war era tack for awhile as I had fantasies about becoming a harness maker, but I've recovered from that and will stick to motorcycle leather. ;-) Alice - -- Alice Morgan Spotted Dog Systems Never attribute to malice that which is adequately described by stupidity ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 May 1996 19:50:40 +0100 From: Maggie Percival Subject: Elizabethan blues In message <199605161533.IAA02775@lunch.engr.sgi.com>, H-Costume Digest writes Hello everyone Cat wrote the following on the use of blue for servitude in Elizabethan dress. > >This is not the first time I have heard this yet the only source I have >seen on it is the Elizabethan Costume book by the California Faire team. >Can anyone more familiar with the drama of the period give me some >additional references? I have seen sources (sorry, they are at home) >describing Mary Queen of Scots wearing blue and I would hardly call her a >servant :). > I found the following in a book I possess on Elizabethan dress. This is not really my period but I do remember seeing a reference to this matter somewhere. The book is "Dress in the Age of Elizabeth" by Jane Ashelford: Publ.Batsford 1988. On page 110 can be found the following:- "Livery was a special dress of uniform worn by male servants belonging to a large household, or by members of the City companies. A bright blue livery was the usual colour, but it could also be made in grey resset of tawny. The connexion of blue with servitude ensured that it was a colour which gentlemen never wore, and it is frequently mentioned in this context by contemporary dramatists." Ashelford then goes on to quote from the play "Tu Quoque" (and cites M. Channing Linthicum's "Costume in the drama of Shakespeare and his Contemporaries" - page 27 - in the footnote for the quote) which I also give here: "his colours, they are according to the seasons; in the summer is apparelled like the heauens in blew, the winter, like the earth in freese". She (Ashelford) then makes the following observation: "This system of using blue russet in the summer and the heavier dark-coloured frize in winter was quite usual." As regards Mary Queen of Scots wearing blue; these are a few guesses and I emphasise 'guesses' - as I said this is not really my period. Blue is mentioned as being worn by male servants and avoided by gentlemen - it may not have had the same "stigma" attached to it for ladies or There are different shades of blue - "bright blue" is mentioned above for servants, but there may have been a more expensive blue dye (again not really my area of expertise - anyone out there know more on this subject?) or When in her life was Mary Queen of Scots known to wear blue? Remember she was largely brought up in France and was, albeit briefly, Queen of that realm. She was also, of course, Queen of Scotland for rather longer and neither of these realms would necessarily follow the English use of blue for servitude. Hope that all this lot is of some use. - -- Maggie Percival ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 May 1996 23:15:31 -0700 From: savaskan@electriciti.com (Julie Adams) Subject: re: 19th cent. Boots (and Pioneers) >>There is an interesting contrast here, shoes in this period were pretty >>disposable, and were not expected to last a long time. Even in 1858, >>according to the book _Every Lady Here Own Shoemaker_ ladies' shoes (as >>opposed to gaiters or boots?) were expected to last about 6 weeks. >It may depend on the type of shoe. Fancy shoes, like dance shoes, appear >in the literature from the 1810's at least as being delicate and flimsy and >likely to self-destruct after one or more wearings. From surviving >examples of most boots and walking shoes, they look like they were meant to >last. I agree. I have seen a number of surviving women's boots (lace or button up) from the late 19th cent. and they looked quite sturdy, though often painfully narrow in compared to my modern wide feet. In photographs the working class women's boots in the Old West look pretty tough. I am pretty sure the women emmigrants who traveled the Oregon trail in the mid-19th cent. did not take along a wagonload of boots and shoes, so there must have been boots available that were tough enough for a few pairs to stand a long walk for 5-8 mos. As an aside, the children's boots of the 19th century also looked very well-made. They probably expected to hand them down from child to child. I recently read a book which categorized and analyzed diaries of women on the Oregon Trail. I can't find it right now for the exact title. As the Mother of one 2 1/2 yr old son, I cannot imagine the trip West with a batch of children. I think the book listed that the average number of children per family traveling the Oregon Trail was 7! And most women were traveling pregnant as well. Many families eventually were 10 or more children, and the woman got up before dawn, found firewood, cooked, often walked all day, then cooked, then cleaned up. Some days they got to "rest" and wash all day instead. Fun Fun! It really made me appreciate my appliances... I imagine that many of these women spent most of their pregnancy in maternity clothing meant to work in. I know its hard work chasing after one child, but 5-9, and pregnant too? Yikes. Its a shame that pregnancy, childbirth, and personal hygiene were even taboo to write in a diary. I would love to know more details. In one week's entry a woman would write how she was tired after working all day and dealing with her five kids, and then there would be a note a week later that another son or daughter was born. Prior to that she wouldn't even mention she was pregnant. With that many children, a poor family must have relied on buying fairly sturdy children's shoes/boots that could be passed down. Anyway, I can't help but believe that some women's boots must have been available that could take a lot of wear and tear in the 19th cent. But I doubt they were fashionable..:-) Julie Adams ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 May 1996 01:17:12 -0500 (CDT) From: The Espresso Pegasus! Subject: Re: Meanings of colors On the strains of Blue... I know during 1888 and similar years, Blue was the 'working mans' color....perhaps it was possible earlier... as well? Maybe as a result of the 'rare' and rich blues, the middle class wanted to look important.. and the rest is.. supply and demand.... until the uppercrust got bored with blue, and had to start all new trends to separate them from the underlings. Comments? Sarahj ______________________.oO*Oo._______________________ You Can Fret Me, But You Cannot Play Upon Me--Hamlet ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 May 1996 01:24:53 -0500 (CDT) From: The Espresso Pegasus! Subject: Re: Elizabethan blues > When in her life was Mary Queen of Scots known to wear blue? Remember I was paging through my art history text, and I was curious as to the colors, and the sunlight, and how the pigments would have changed... I remember seeing a icon with distinctly *green* skin tones, because the flesh faded, and the green underpainting came forward. So she could have been wearing Purple, as I have found Red pigment is one fo the first to go... (violet-red=blue!) It is also possible that the person who started this 'rumor' or may in blue, could have just seen a horrid reproduction, and all that mis interpretation stuff. Take Care, Sarahj ------------------------------ Date: 17 May 96 09:40:00 GMT From: Mrs C S Yeldham Subject: Blue I'm not a dyer, but here goes! The early blue dye was woad which tends to produce a blue-grey colour (with the usual caveats about over-dying, mordants and what other dyes you use) but I wouldn't call it 'bright'. Mid-16th century indigo starts coming in, which gives a much darker colour (it's used for jeans). Apparently the processing of this stank, and Elizabeth banned it from her vicinity. It may have come in earlier on the continent, as I have a copy of a lovely illumination from a Flemish Book of House, c 1500 from the Fitzwilliam Museum, Cambridge, 'Feasting by the Fire' which shows the gentleman wearing a long robe in a lovely dark blue, toasting his feet by the fire. Everyone else is wearing turquoise, red and grey, with touches of black. So it is entirely possible that woad was much cheaper than indigo (which had to be imported) and the paler colours would be used for servants, while the new dark blue shades would be more fashionable. BTW the pigment used in painting for blue is lapis lazuli, which gives a strong bright blue and was one of the most expensive pigments, which is why it turns up as the Virgin's robe etc. I think it remains true, from the pictures I've seen, but it is one of the classic colours to beware of in medieval/early modern reenactment. Blue carries a different meaning in pictures to what it means in clothes. Caroline BTW I've never been entirely sure how accurate those pictures of 18th century English gentlemen out hunting were - they always look terribly insecure! I've also been taught that many of the accidents out hunting were made much worse because the stirrups did not come off the saddle as they do today. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 May 1996 08:27:05 -0400 (EDT) From: Astrida E B Schaeffer Subject: Re: Meanings of colors One of those moments of epiphany (i.e., the obvious smacks me in the face)-- "working man's" color=blue collar workers!! Seems to go back a long way. Astrida Schaeffer "All life on Earth is a fairy tale in which outlandish creatures pursue impossible lives" - Rutherford Platt ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 May 1996 08:46:56 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine Leonard Subject: Corset fitting questions Hi! I've just begun the fitting proces for my first corset project. I'm making the Amazon kit for Past Patterns #703. One alteration I've already made is to open the back all the way down rather than leave it joined at the bottom few inches. I'm making this corset as a test for a later corset that I plan to wear as a fashion accessory over a dress, so historicity is not an issue right now. My question is whether anyone has made this pattern before and if there are any peculiarities I need to look out for. I'm not looking to pull my waist in on this one but a little tummy control would be nice. :-) I've also noticed that the illustration shows the top of the corset extending over the bust. When fitting, should I plan for a little "smoosh and push?" Or do I fit it as I would a regular bodice? I'd like it to fit snugly, but not uncomfortably tight. FWIW, the dress it's going over is a Vogue Donna Karan pattern--a very simple sheath with a narrowish silhouette and a scooped neckline. I may change the neckline depending on how it looks with the corset. The fabric is that wonderful rayon knit with the tiny ribs in it, in black. The final corset will be in black, too, but I haven't chosen a fabric for it yet. Thanks! Cate Catherine Leonard | lunar23@voicenet.com | cleonard@astro.ocis.temple.edu Mehitabel: 1981 Honda CM400 Custom DoD Conformist (To The Stars!) #1482 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 May 1996 10:40:36 -0400 From: RBarber854@aol.com Subject: Re: Corset fitting questions The 703 is joined at the back for a specific reason, it is a skirt supporting corset, and the casing at the bottom is more than a binding, it is for insertion of a "hoop" or reed to make it stick out and support the skirt. If you plan on wearing this under a modern fitted garment I would suggest you be aware of what is happening at the back hip. You may need to take some flare out of each of the panels from the waist down. I think you will like the shape of the corset. It has a very nice line to it. Roxy Barber ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 May 1996 10:47:40 -0400 From: mhamilto@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Marsha Hamilton) Subject: Re: ancient English all-purpose saddle >I don't even know what a contemporery dressage >saddle looks like. Maybe its even moved the riders weight forward towards >the withers. I know nothing about dressage but the dressage saddles in catalogs appear to put the rider far back, not a forward seat. The explanation I heard was that it allowed judges to see the front legs of the horse better but that doesn't sound logical. Pictures show no knee rolls, a pretty flat seat, and long leathers. I made an 1860's riding costume and wonder if anyone knows if side-saddles currently sold/used are similar or not to those used in the 1860's in the U.S.? Where would one get a period looking side-saddle? Have any of you ridden in a period costume (as opposed to the current "safety" apron). Any hints? I cut the left hem long but not so long it could catch on a horse's hooves. That was apparently a real concern in the past and is why women switched to the break-away apron skirt. Any other hazards to be aware of? Thanks. Marsha ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 May 1996 10:47:41 -0400 From: mhamilto@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Marsha Hamilton) Subject: Narrow shoes >I have seen a number of surviving women's boots (lace or button >up) from the late 19th cent. and they looked quite sturdy, though often >painfully narrow in compared to my modern wide feet. I have very wide feet and have a hard time getting modern shoes (I love Rockports!) but I've tried on 19th century reproduction boots that "look" very narrow but still feel comfortable. My experience was that part of the bottom of the foot is supported by the leather sides rolling down. Only the center bottom of the foot is supported by the sole/heel. It gave good support and the silhouette looked correct. I always wondered about the narrow foot stereotype. While at the Bata Shoe Museum, I saw a medieval shoe and the leather was soft enough that the shoe had molded to the foot. You could tell where the little toe had caused the leather to bow out. It looked like a modern width foot. On the other hand, my aunt (born in 1919 or 20) purposely wore shoes smaller than her feet, which was fashionable to women to do at the time. Her feet (like Chinese bound feet) did adjust to the smaller sizes but in older age, her folded toes, etc. caused much pain. I suppose if one wore narrow shoes from childhood the foot would form narrower. Marsha ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 May 1996 13:12:10 -0400 From: BarbMVD@aol.com Subject: 900 Years of English Costume Bronwyn asked about the 1987edition of the Nancy Bradfield book, 900 Years of English Costume. Originally pub. 1938 in England under the title Historical Costumes of England, this edition was revised, reset, with additional illustrations, in 1970. The 1987 edition was the first pub. in the United States. The line drawings are detailed and the text opposite annotated. Barbara Delorey BarbMVD@aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 May 1996 10:52:49 -0700 (PDT) From: Erin Harvey Moody Subject: Re: Saddles *There are costume bits somewhere in my post here* Marsha asked: >American Civil War cavalry have it soooooooo easy compared to earlier >periods. Catalogs of regular western stores (example: Rod's Western >Palace) sell what look like authentic reproductions of McClellan saddles. >Tree with little padding, tons of rings to attach all one's gear. They >were built to keep maximum air flow and light weight to keep the horse cool >but BOY do they look uncomfortable for the rider. Has anyone every tried >one? and: I made an 1860's riding costume and wonder if anyone knows if side-saddles currently sold/used are similar or not to those used in the 1860's in the U.S.? Where would one get a period looking side-saddle? Have any of you ridden in a period costume (as opposed to the current "safety" apron). Any hints? I cut the left hem long but not so long it could catch on a horse's hooves. That was apparently a real concern in the past and is why women switched to the break-away apron skirt. Any other hazards to be aware of? To the McClellan saddles, I have ridden in them and had a great view of them through the "ages" at the U.S. Cavalry Museum. I do not find them very comfortable either in pleasure or equitation situations. They hurt my butt sitting, and the rings were in the wrong places for my legs and they rubbed so uncomfortably that I got a nasty bruise. The seat of the saddle was too stiff to adopt the relaxed, Western collection, and the stirrups situated so that the stiffer English Equitation just felt strange. I have ridden most of my life: competed seriously in 3 day eventing when I was in my teens (forward seat, hunting, and dressage styles), I have owned a Tennesee Plantation Walker, and ridden Western Pleasure. "Seat" and what is comfortable is highly individual but I just couldnt get into that saddle. Most men I know refer to McClellans euphamistically as "ball busters" if that gives you an idea of the male perspective. On side saddles: I used to own a 1890s almost mint condition side saddle that I rode in, and a few antique (both English and Western) side saddles that were unusuable for riding but great for construction research. My last trip to England and Ireland I was on an equestrian enthuse and dove into every tack store I could find. I did come accross several vintage riding habits (men and women's). The skirts (from 1880s and later) were either apron style or were made in a way that the knee that went over the forward cantle (and leaping horn on the side-saddle) would have a sort of pocket to sit in so the skirt would appear smooth while seated on the horse (hard to explain this one without drawing it). The riding literature of the period spends alot of time talking about the dangers of ladies being "hung up" on their saddle while hunting. This was from either their skirts being caught on the leaping horn or not being able to release their leg from the stirrup. So they advocated the "quick release" stirrup which detached if pulled on in certain directions, and the "adpron" which was really just a modesty cover over the legs, which was worn over riding breeches. The apron was carried over your arm when walking then arranged over your legs once mounted. There were (and still are in some clubs) strict rules about what one could wear hunting in the late 19thC. for both men and women. Then of course, there was "park" riding which is completely different from sport riding and hunting. To ride in the "park" was to wear the fancy hiding habits and ride around at the walk on a track on in a small grassy park, as if in a parade. "Rotten Row" in London was the best known riding park. Ladies were frequently lead by men (a leash attached to the lady's horses bit was held by her male escort). The modern made side-saddles today (mostly made by Steele Co.) have a shorter leaping horn and cantle than most of the period ones I have seen. These can vary greatly from manufacturer. Also there are many types of side-saddles (English, Western, Mexican, Alexandra, etc.) I did quite alot of research on side-saddles and habits many years ago. I am sorry I dont have access to my books on this, but I made alot of copies of articles for Julie Adams, perhaps she can give you a few titles to look up of she still has them... Erin Moody ------------------------------ End of H-Costume Digest V4 #120 ******************************* A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, send the command lines: unsubscribe h-costume-digest subscribe h-costume end in the body of a message to majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com. Thanks and enjoy the list!