From: owner-h-costume-digest (H-Costume Digest) To: h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Subject: H-Costume Digest V4 #121 Reply-To: h-costume Sender: owner-h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Errors-To: owner-h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Precedence: bulk H-Costume Digest Saturday, May 18 1996 Volume 4, Number 121 Compilation copyright (C) 1996 Diane Barlow Close and Gretchen Miller Use in whole prohibited. Individual articles are the property of the author. Seek permission from that author before reprinting or quoting elsewhere. Important Addresses: Send submissions to: h-costume@lunch.engr.sgi.com (or reply to this message). Adds/drops/archives: majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com Real, live person: h-costume-request@andrew.cmu.edu Topics: re:Outdoor Headgear 1800 Re: ancient English all-purpose saddle Ren. headdress patters... Re: Ren. headdress patters... Re: Saddles Elizabethan Blues and Narrow Shoes Re: Saddles Colours COLOR NAMES: explanation COLOR NAMES: Middle Ages 1100-1300AD ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 17 May 96 11:00:47 PDT From: DGC3%Rates%FAR@go50.comp.pge.com Subject: re:Outdoor Headgear 1800 >There is a wonderful two-volume costume history I am thinking of in >particular published around the turn of the (20th) century by an >Elizabeth something or other (not E. Ewing >extensive sketching from period sources. I have a xerox of a page from >that book that shows this exact bonnet dated 1800 - 1803 (except that >this one is black with white ribbons and sports no feather.) I regret >that I have lost the title page and cannot give you more on this source. Perhaps _Chronicles of Fashion_ by Elizabeth Stone? Originally published in 1846, republished in 1900 by Richard Bentley Publishing in London. - --------------snip--------------------- Try Elizabeth McClelland's _History of American Costume_. It was originally published around 1938. I believe I have seen a recent reprint. She has very charming anecdotes from letters of the time; in other cases, she has "padded" out the material with information from English and French fashion sources. Another good early 20th C. book filled with anecdotes is Alice Morse Earle's _Two Centuries of Fashion in America_ (2 vols, also reprinted recently). I am salivating over the detailed bonnet description. Those poke bonnets do appear around 1800 in France; by concealing the eyes from all but a direct glance, the impact of that glance was increased (and the eyes were about the only body part concealed in France in 1800, the era of damped muslins and jettisoned petticoats). From my own experiments with early 19th C. bonnets and caps, I think maids and matrons alike would have worn caps under bonnets to (1) protect the linings from soiling-- remember, they are actually oiling their hair to get that sleek look, not blow-drying it daily; and (2) to protect their coiffures from getting "hat hair." The Ackerman reprints from the 1820s (Dover) look as if this is so. Danine - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Danine Cozzens Internet: dgc3@pge.com Phone: 415/973-1388 Pacific Gas and Electric Company San Francisco, CA - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 May 1996 20:34:04 -0400 (EDT) From: Joan Beaudoin Subject: Re: ancient English all-purpose saddle > >I don't even know what a contemporery dressage > >saddle looks like. Maybe its even moved the riders weight forward towards > >the withers. > > I know nothing about dressage but the dressage saddles in catalogs appear > to put the rider far back, not a forward seat. The explanation I heard was > that it allowed judges to see the front legs of the horse better but that > doesn't sound logical. Pictures show no knee rolls, a pretty flat seat, and > long leathers. The difference between these two types of saddles rest mainly in where the rider's seat and legs are positioned in relation to the horse. The saddles are designed to "place" the rider in the correct position for the style of riding they are involved in. Forward seat saddles (aka hunt seat) are designed for jumping, so they have relatively shallow seats, and usually, padded, high knee rolls. This, in conjunction with a shorter stirrup length, places the rider's upper body at a slight angle toward the horse's neck, the seat a bit forward (rider is "lighter" in the saddle), and the legs in a slightly contracted position. The main aim of this saddle is to allow the rider the freedom to get out of the saddle, over the horse's center of gravity, during the jump. Dressage saddles are typically very deep seated with long straight panels which have leg padding running down the front. The rider uses a longer stirrup leather length with this type of saddle. The rider's body is upright, the seat deeper, and the leg longer (the angle between the knees and ankle is much greater than in the hunt seat saddle). The main aim of this saddle is to provide close contact between horse and rider, so they can feel each other's movements. This is a simplified explanation of the differences... even within these two different saddle types there is much variation, never mind their half and half counterpart the "all purpose" or event saddle which combines elements of each! > I made an 1860's riding costume and wonder if anyone knows if side-saddles > currently sold/used are similar or not to those used in the 1860's in the > U.S.? > Where would one get a period looking side-saddle? Have any of you ridden > in a period costume (as opposed to the current "safety" apron). Any hints? > I cut the left hem long but not so long it could catch on a horse's > hooves. That was apparently a real concern in the past and is why women > switched to the break-away apron skirt. Any other hazards to be aware of? > Thanks. > > Marsha > I think I've seen a total of one side saddle for sale in a tack shop in 15+ years of riding. That isn't to say they are not available. I don't know if this area is beyond where you'd be willing to look, but The Horseman's Yankee Peddlar has a good classified section. I remember seeing them in there from time to time. I'm not sure how much the saddles differed over a period of time. Like modern saddles, I assume each company or craftsman who produced them had their own unique style, so even within one period there could be many variations. There is at least one side saddle organization in the US. Unfortunately I do not have their name or address--I pitched all my horsey stuff during my last move. I will try to find it for you though. A few years ago I came across a 1890s ladies riding habit at an auction. It was made here in Philadelphia for a woman who lived in DE. It was still in the original box in which it had been sent to her! I don't remember many of the details... the color was a cross between moss and olive green, it was made of a rather knobby wool, the jacket was cut a bit longer than a modern jacket (probably to or just below the hips), the skirt was unusual. I remember being intrigued by the lack of fabric--it seemed too straight and confining to be useful for anything beyond sitting on a horse. It did have a button (at the waist?) which allowed the fabric of the skirt to be gathered up and attached. Now I'm sorry I didn't pay closer attention to it. Joan ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 May 1996 20:43:51 -0400 From: SyRilla@aol.com Subject: Ren. headdress patters... Hello my friends, Have any one of you used the womens "Ren." headdress pattern from past pattern? I have tried to make a french hood but can not for the life of me get it to turn any thing like the ones in the pictures. I have tried all sorts of things, but nothing seems to work. If you have any suggestion please HELP!!! Despondantly yours, Kimberly SyRilla "The Costumer is always Right" customer ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 May 1996 20:51:04 -0400 (EDT) From: aleed Subject: Re: Ren. headdress patters... I don't know if you've tried this already, but when I'm making a french hood I use thick cardboard, cut the crescent out, and fit it around the top of my head. If it doesn't look right, just keep changing the shape of the piece you cut out till it looks the way you want. Then use the cardboard shape for the shape of the french hood. Drea > Hello my friends, > Have any one of you used the womens "Ren." headdress pattern from past > pattern? I have tried to make a french hood but can not for the life of me > get it to turn any thing like the ones in the pictures. I have tried all > sorts of things, but nothing seems to work. If you have any suggestion > please HELP!!! > > Despondantly yours, > Kimberly > > SyRilla > > "The Costumer is always Right" > customer > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 May 1996 23:00:03 -0400 From: zorro@netdepot.com (David Marcus & Peggy Lamberson) Subject: Re: Saddles In email on Thu, 16 May 1996 19:37:58 -0400, David Marcus & Peggy Lamberson wrote: >WHen I was a kid, a friend of mine had one of these saddles. We used to play >Wild West calvary with it. I meant cavalry, obviously. GEESH! Peggy ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 May 96 02:17:58 GMT From: tigger@FastLane.NET (Kim Ann Innes) Subject: Elizabethan Blues and Narrow Shoes Date: Thu, 16 May 1996 19:50:40 +0100 From: Maggie Percival Subject: Elizabethan blues > I found the following in a book I possess on Elizabethan dress. This is > not really my period but I do remember seeing a reference to this matter > somewhere. The book is "Dress in the Age of Elizabeth" by Jane > Ashelford: Publ.Batsford 1988. On page 110 can be found the following:- > (snip) An excellent book, IMHO; Elizabethan is my speciaty. I have run across the reference to blue being a color for servants livery in several places, though I don't have time to go re-read all of my costume books to find them all (you know, life and all that....) > When in her life was Mary Queen of Scots known to wear blue? Remember > she was largely brought up in France and was, albeit briefly, Queen of > that realm. She was also, of course, Queen of Scotland for rather > longer and neither of these realms would necessarily follow the English > use of blue for servitude. Good point. Remember that France's colors are/were blue & gold; blue would probably not have been a servant's color there. As a matter of fact, I believe I have photos that I've taken in museums of various Elizabethan period French ladies wearing blue (but I'm NOT going to sort through over 7,000 slides to find some examples right now! I'd be sitting in front of the slide projector for a week! Enjoying every second of it, however.) Also keep in mind that colors had meaning in 16th century England. A book titled "A Rare True and Proper Blazon of Coloures and Ensignes Military with theyr Peculiar Seignification" was published in 1583 (being a translation into English of a French book from 1526). In this book, blue is given as meaning amity; green meaning love or joy; etc. It appears that the language of color and symbols was much used by the (bored?) aristocracy to show that they were in love, had been rejected by someone thay loved (or wished to love), were in melancholy, and so on. The chapter on this subject in the Ashelford book referenced above is very interesting. I just took a few minutes to read a few pages in "Queen Elizabeth's Wardrobe Unlock'd" where Janet Arnold lists gowns in Elizabeth's wardrobe by color; not a single blue gown is mentioned. The predominant color was black (no real surprise there). When I was younger and just starting my "career" as a costumer, I made myself a couple of absolutely gorgeous blue gowns without realizing the significance of the blue. Thank heaven that the gowns were both copies of French styles and not English! Though, to be honest, I haven't found any examples of French ladies wearing blue gowns at that time, either (though I've only made a quick ten minute survey flipping through about a dozen books on the period, so I probably missed a lot). I find it interesting to note the scarcity of green in ladies clothing of the period, as well. I have found some examples of mens clothing being green and a painting of a early 17th century French King's festival showing a couple of ladies dressed in green, but the predominant Elizabethan period colors for lades appear to be black, whites, and reds with some gold thrown in. > ------------------------------ > > Date: 17 May 96 09:40:00 GMT > From: Mrs C S Yeldham > Subject: Blue > > I'm not a dyer, but here goes! > (snip) > BTW the pigment used in painting for blue is lapis lazuli, which gives a > strong bright blue and was one of the most expensive pigments, which is why > it turns up as the Virgin's robe etc. I think it remains true, from the > pictures I've seen, but it is one of the classic colours to beware of in > medieval/early modern reenactment. Blue carries a different meaning in > pictures to what it means in clothes. > The last sentence is VERY true! Not to mention that the pigments available for painting were not necessarily matches for the dyes available for clothing. > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Fri, 17 May 1996 10:47:41 -0400 > From: mhamilto@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Marsha Hamilton) > Subject: Narrow shoes > (snip) > I always wondered about the narrow foot stereotype. While at the Bata Shoe > Museum, I saw a medieval shoe and the leather was soft enough that the shoe > had molded to the foot. You could tell where the little toe had caused the > leather to bow out. It looked like a modern width foot. On the other hand, > my aunt (born in 1919 or 20) purposely wore shoes smaller than her feet, > which was fashionable to women to do at the time. Her feet (like Chinese > bound feet) did adjust to the smaller sizes but in older age, her folded > toes, etc. caused much pain. I suppose if one wore narrow shoes from > childhood the foot would form narrower. > I can tell you from personal experience that the last sentence is true. I used to wear a AA width shoe with a AAAA width heel when I was a teenager. Since I had problems with my feet at the time, I wore very stiff leather shoes for support. Once they started making shoes shaped to fit feet with arch supports, etc., I started wearing softer shoes. Now I have B width feet in the front and still a AAA or AAAA heel! Talk about having trouble finding shoes I can keep on my feet - I walk out of most shoes except for some moccasin style shoes that tie on and, of course, my Nikes. This does make it difficult to find good shoes to wear with my costumes; thank heaven that the feet don't show during Elizabeth's time! I can get away with wearing the typical Chinese velvet "Mary Jane" style shoes (purchased one size too large so I can put athletic shoe liners inside for support) or bedroom slippers. - -- Kim (tigger@fastlane.net) For imported trim; publications on costume, embroidery, and heraldry: http://www.fastlane.net/~tigger/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 May 1996 20:48:36 -0700 From: savaskan@electriciti.com (Julie Adams) Subject: Re: Saddles >I did quite alot >of research on side-saddles and habits many years ago. I am sorry I dont >have access to my books on this, but I made alot of copies of articles for >Julie Adams, perhaps she can give you a few titles to look up of she still >has them... > >Erin Moody I probably have them buried somewhere. I also have a book I think its called "The book of the Horse" that is a late 19th century treatise on horsemanship, and has an extensive sidesaddle section. There is a sidesaddle organization which I have extremely old data on, at least 10 years old, so its probably not correct. They occasionally had articles in their newsletters as well. I'll see what I have. I still have a sidesaddle, probably 1880's Mexican, because parts are machine stitched, but is in a much earlier style. It is the closest saddle I have ever seen to a Renaissance period side-saddle, but it really most accurate for 17th to early 19th century reenactment. It is restored, and ridable, but I added a non period, but needed for safety, extra cinch. It is for someone very small (and I don't fit in it anymore.) It has a side rail, which looks like the back of a chair, and a lovely tooled and painted floral decoration. This early style does not have a leaping horn. But I even rode with it on trails occasionally. It has more of a Western style tree than English, but it is really neither. It really needs a crupper to feel secure. It is for sale if anyone is interested, for what I have into it. It was a fun project, but I'd love to see it with someone who would like to show it off. While not very comfortable, I still felt it was the ultimate accessory for my Renaissance riding clothes...but it would be great for a living history site which did early 19th century Southwest, Spanish, or Californio... Julie Adams ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 May 1996 01:57:38 -0500 (EST) From: LACONSTANCE@delphi.com Subject: Colours Caroline & all, > Just checking the list again, I can give some information on > 'Soppes-in-Wine'. This was a term used for pinks, or gillyflowers, the old > fashioned pinks, which have a paler centre. This is fascinating! My husband raises old varieties of apples, and in our orchard is a tree of the variety called "Sops of Wine". According to the nursery where we purchased it, the variety is one of the oldest known apples - -- perhaps medieval. The apple is a little like a winesap. Constance La Lena laconstance@delphi.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 May 1996 14:54:41 -0400 (EDT) From: "Penny E. Ladnier" Subject: COLOR NAMES: explanation I will be re-entering the first three periods from my research paper. The initial postings were messed up due to formatting problems. I will explain a few things about my paper "Color Names Through the Centuries". These are my first entries into a research that will span three more years. Some of the information is vague, but is still noted. This information is still being researched. You may see a color name appear more than once in a given period. In my research, I like to document as many sources on a given piece of information as possible. This also lets me know how long a color lasted in history and the trends of the time. The dates of usage and comments maybe included with the name. All color names will appear in CAPITAL LETTERS. The paper covers colors names used for clothing and accessories from the Middle Ages to 1920's. I have also changed servers this week. Please address any comments to me at s0peladn@erols.com Thank you to all the people who have helped me with this paper. Penny E. Ladnier Virginia Commonwealth University $$$ $$$ $$$ $$$ $$$ $$$ $$$ $$$ $$$ $$$ $$$ $$$ $$$ $$$ $ $$ $$ $$ $$ $$ $$ $$ $$ $$ $$ $$ $$ $$ $$ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ Pennies from Heaven, where it's always reigning money, or at least my kids think so. Penny E. Ladnier, Virginia Commonwealth University s0peladn@cabell.vcu.edu $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $$ $$ $$ $$ $$ $$ $$ $$ $$ $$ $$ $$ $$ $$ $$$ $$$ $$$ $$$ $$$ $$$ $$$ $$$ $$$ $$$ $$$ $$$ $$$ $$$ $ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 May 1996 15:12:14 -0400 (EDT) From: "Penny E. Ladnier" Subject: COLOR NAMES: Middle Ages 1100-1300AD "Permission is given to copy and freely distribute this list as long as this header remains intact. No warrenty expressed or implied." (c) Penny E. Ladnier Send updates, corrections, additions and comments to me: s0peladn@erols.com COLOR NAMES THROUGH THE CENTURIES MIDDLE AGES 1100-1300AD POURPRE GRIS: Grey crimson colour mentioned in the "Lay of Sir Launfal." POURPRE: Purple ECARLATE BLANCHES: White crimson POURPRE SANGUINE: Sanguine crimson VERT: Green, also used in heraldry represented by the diagonal lines from dexter. ALL PREVIOUS INFORMATION IS DOCUMENTED IN: "COSTUME IN ENGLAND: A HISTORY OF DRESS" WATCHET: 1198, Blue MURREY: 1249, Mulberry colour SCARLET: 1249, used as a color name for red. TAWNEY: 1298, Yellowish Tan, considered a sign of saddness ALL PREVIOUS INFORMATION IS DOCUMENTED IN: "COSTUME IN THE DRAMA OF SHAKESPEARE AND HIS CONTEMPARIES" $$$ $$$ $$$ $$$ $$$ $$$ $$$ $$$ $$$ $$$ $$$ $$$ $$$ $$$ $ $$ $$ $$ $$ $$ $$ $$ $$ $$ $$ $$ $$ $$ $$ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ Pennies from Heaven, where it's always reigning money, or at least my kids think so. Penny E. Ladnier, Virginia Commonwealth University s0peladn@cabell.vcu.edu $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $$ $$ $$ $$ $$ $$ $$ $$ $$ $$ $$ $$ $$ $$ $$$ $$$ $$$ $$$ $$$ $$$ $$$ $$$ $$$ $$$ $$$ $$$ $$$ $$$ $ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ ------------------------------ End of H-Costume Digest V4 #121 ******************************* A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, send the command lines: unsubscribe h-costume-digest subscribe h-costume end in the body of a message to majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com. Thanks and enjoy the list!