From: owner-h-costume-digest (H-Costume Digest) To: h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Subject: H-Costume Digest V4 #136 Reply-To: h-costume Sender: owner-h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Errors-To: owner-h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Precedence: bulk H-Costume Digest Friday, June 14 1996 Volume 4, Number 136 Compilation copyright (C) 1996 Diane Barlow Close and Gretchen M Beck Use in whole prohibited. Individual articles are the property of the author. Seek permission from that author before reprinting or quoting elsewhere. Important Addresses: Send submissions to: h-costume@lunch.engr.sgi.com (or reply to this message). Adds/drops/archives: majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com Real, live person: h-costume-request@andrew.cmu.edu Topics: re: Medieval hats (1300) Re: Finnish history and costume Re: crochet time frame? London - Where is? Re: Crocet timeframe crochet Costume sources in London Museum of London Re: Minneapolis costume rental Trip to London Re: Piecework magazine Zigzag collar stays, 3" Re: Crocet timeframe RE: Zigzag collar stays, 3" Re: RE: Zigzag collar stays, 3" Re: Crochet time frame Re: Costume sources in London Re: Zigzag collar stays, 3" London Costume Book Store Re: London Costume Book Store Mary Tudor's Wardrobe Accounts ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 9:27:50 -0500 (CDT) From: Marc Carlson Subject: re: Medieval hats (1300) >Try Boucher, 20,000 Years of Fashion. Look closely at the bibliographical >stuff noted with the pictures and go from there. >Also try Mary K Houston, Medieval Costume in England & France, 1979 (reprint) >Adams & Charles Black Pub. >A little late, but possibly of some use is Stella Mary Newton, Fashion In The >Age Of The Black Prince, 1980, Boydell Press. >Most of these will probably be Interlibrary Loan (that miracle of miracles). >Good Luck First, I apologize for the delay on this response, but I'm on the digest, so when the list is slow, so's the response time :) This has been compounded by the fact that every time I try and post this, My postmaster tells me that the site for this list doesn't exist (And people wonder why I prefer doing Historical stuff -- no computers) Having worked in Interlibrary Loan for the past few years, I appreciate the compliment. I suspect your local ILL people would too. (Hint: if you become friendly with them, remember them on holidays and such, they are far more likely to remember you than otherwise. For example, it took them six months of persistantly nagging the three libraries in the country that were willing to lend it to finally cough up Embleton and Howe's "The Medieval Soldier". I am only too aware that normal policies are that if an item can't be received after a reasonable amount of time and effort, it's up to the PATRON to resubmit it for new attempts. I consider six months well past the level of "reasonable" time and effort. I'm still trying to think of a way to thank them properly.) I've tracked down two of the works you've mentioned, and while they are being helpful, for which I thank you, there are still some questions I have. In order to better get an idea of what existed at the time, I'm broadening my search to several centuries on either side at the moment. The evolution of the Hood/Chaperon/Roundlet with Liripipe seems pretty straightforward, as does the Hood's evolution into some of the more esoteric Tudor headwear for women (I know have a vague idea of where that silly looking "Gabled" head-dress came from). The coif is as straighforward as you can get, or so it seems. Mu question has to do with the "caps". For example, in an early episode of the Brother Cadfael mysteries (I believe it was the "Sanctuary Sparrow", at the wedding party one of the guests is wearing what appears to be a Hershey's Kiss on his head). I have seen a few illustrations, purporting to be reproducing contemporary ones, that show such a hat, but is it possible that this is merely a misinterpretation of the ubiquitious Scythian Cap? (An amusing variant of which appears in Dragon Heart). This, of course, serves to show why I don't consider illustrations "primary" sources, as they are merely representing what the Artist thought he saw and reproduced. Are there any archeological "hat finds" that I'm missing. The Textiles volume of the London Excavations series has a "cloth hat" that THEY even suspect might just have been cloth shaped that way after burial. Marc Carlson IMC@VAX2.UTULSA.EDU ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 08:04:49 -0500 (EST) From: "Paul Douglas Lockhart, History Dept., Wright State University" Subject: Re: Finnish history and costume Although I am a Scandinavianist by trade (my published work has centered primarily on 16th-17th century Scandinavia), I'm afraid that I can't answer directly on Finnish costume. Vis-a-vis Ms. Yeldham's reply, however, I should add that, yes, Finland's existence as an autonomous polity has been relatively recent. Denmark has never ruled the area (unless you count the loose Kalmar Union of 1397-1520), but Finland was an appanage of Sweden up until the early 20th century. This, however, should have little or no effect on costume and dress. Although Finland counted as little more than a province of Vasa Sweden ( just like Norway to Denmark before 1660), and although Swedish was the formal administrative language of Finland under Swedish rule, the Vasa house never practiced any form of "Swedification," i.e. suppressing native traditions ( including costume), or colonization of the area. The Finnish population, particularly in the countryside, was left pretty much alone (provided they paid their taxes and cooperated with conscription). In other words, without meaning to contradict Ms. Yeldham, Finland's lack of autonomy should not have had any significant effect on native costume styles. You might want to check with Finnish historians, however. A good place to start would be H-SKAND, the Scandinavian history/culture listserv. The address is H-SKAND@H-NET.MSU.EDU. Hope this helps. Paul Douglas Lockhart, Ph.D. Associate Professor of History, Wright State University North American Editor, H-SKAND ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 13:11:45 -0400 (EDT) From: Gretchen M Beck Subject: Re: crochet time frame? Excerpts from internet.other.h-costume: 12-Jun-96 crochet time frame? by Roland & Kora Kari@cdsne > I need information on when crochet lace was documented. Someone told me that > the first piece was documented around 1665? I thought it was developed much > earlier around 1500's. I need as much information or other sources in order > to clairify this debate. I read recently in a history of crochet that crochet was imported from Turkey, and was unknown in Europe before the 18th C. toodles, gretchen ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 13:42:11 From: Dawn L Vukson-Van Beek Subject: London - Where is? I will be in London June 19-29 attending the Medival Dress and Textile Society Conference on Italian Dress 1300-1600, and will have five days to see dress and textiles in London. I am interested in 1200-1700, in any European style. I am already planning on Courthalds, V&A, British Museum, and the National Portrait Gallery. *Any* suggestions on: Specialty fabric stores, used book stores dealing in costume books, or booksellers who print/reprint related books & antique stores dealing with sewing notions. %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely. ...broad, wholesome, charitable views... can not be acquired by vegetating in one's little corner of the earth. Mark Twain, _Innocents Abroad_, 1869 Dona Lucia Porzia Sforza di Firenze, modernly known as Dawn Vukson-Van Beek vukso001@tc.umn.edu http://www.tc.umn.edu/nlhome/g080/vukso001/dawn/home.html %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 11:57:24 -0800 From: fsbks@mcn.org (Fred Struthers) Subject: Re: Crocet timeframe Excerpts from internet.other.h-costume: 12-Jun-96 crochet time frame? by Roland & Kora Kari@cdsne > I need information on when crochet lace was documented. Someone told me that > the first piece was documented around 1665? I thought it was developed much > earlier around 1500's. I need as much information or other sources in order > to clairify this debate. PAuline Turner writes, in the Shire album CROCHET, that though people assume Crochet would be as old as knitting, there are no paintings or writings describing it (as with knitting). She goes on to explain that the word crochet came into English via old french, "croc" meaning hook, and that ladies of the French nobility began writing of it in the mid 19th century. And that the craft was taken from the continent to England and America by ladies educated in the convents on the continent. More fuel for the fire! Fred Struthers fsbks@mcn.org ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 14:03:34 -0600 From: reaves@tuvok.marian.edu (Anne Reaves) Subject: crochet Lis Paludan's History of Crochet is an excellent one, presenting the argument that in Europe crochet developed during the 18th c after the hook was created for tambour work. Although some writers try to claim that crochet can be dated back to the Renaissance, I have only seen one photograph of a late 16th-early 17th c gold lace called chain lace, which seems to resemble crochet chaining--but which also could be finger chaining. Those particularly interested in 19th patterns will find much in Paludan's book to keep them busy and inspired. Anne Reaves ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 12:12:18 -0700 From: Frances Grimble Subject: Costume sources in London Dawn, The Museum of London exhibits costume, at least periodically. When we were there we saw a shirt that belonged to James I and Queen Victoria's wedding dress, as well as other pieces that have escaped my mind. The Victoria and Albert Museum had a large selection of costume books in their bookstore. You may already know this, but most parts of England are readily accessible from London in a few hours via their train service which is excellent. I would recommend side trips to see the Museum of Costume at Bath and the Gallery of English Costume in Manchester. Fran Grimble ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 13:57:12 -0700 From: Frances Grimble Subject: Museum of London Dawn, I just got a copy of _PieceWork_ in the mail, which describes clothing- and textile-related artifacts currently at the Museum of London. It looks like they have educational rather than art style exhibits. The items mentioned include Tudor chain mail shirts and a dueling glove, leather shoes and a jerkin discovered in a 16th-century well, and early Stuart costumes, draperies, rugs, tapestries, and a beaded bag worked by Queen Mary for King William. Also Hogarth engravings, Spitalfields silks, calico-printing blocks, clothing that belonged to George IV, and a number of items up through World War II. Hope this helps. Fran Grimble ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 17:37:08 -0400 (EDT) From: aleed Subject: Re: Minneapolis costume rental I would contact any local theater/opera houses in the area, and ask their costume departments where they rent their costumes from. Even if they usually make their own, most costume shops will have an address of a place you can call. Drea ------------------------------- We've secretly replaced their dilithium crystals with new folgers crystals. Now let's watch them go to warp. - ------------------------------- On Wed, 12 Jun 1996, -All- wrote: > > Does anyone know of an Elizabethan costume rental source in Minneapolis, > Minnasota? The event will take place in October, and the majority of > people will be coming from out of town. > > Thanks, > > Carol Boettger > ------------------------------ Date: 13 Jun 96 14:22:00 From: Stacey Weinberger at WADSWORTH Subject: Trip to London New Text Item: Museum of London I just remembered that there is a wonderful open air museum in Portsmouth. They have many restored buildings from different eras, and I think that is where they are restoring the Mary Rose. There are some clothes there too (a friend who went there got to try on a leather jerkin that was drfted from an original found on the MR). Stacey ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 19:29:42 -0400 From: MDSDMB@aol.com Subject: Re: Piecework magazine Ain't Piecework great? Just about the time youfind out you need to know something - there's an article on it in Piecework! Regards, Mary Denise Smith ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 18:57:00 -0600 (MDT) From: gottfred@agt.net (Jeff Gottfred) Subject: Zigzag collar stays, 3" A friend of mine, who is MUCH better at costuming but is also modem-free, has come up with a problem. She is sewing an Edwardian shirt (I think it is Past Patterns, might be Folkwear). The pattern calls for 3-inch zigzag collar stays. She has looked for them everywhere; she has phoned the pattern publisher; I have searched all my catalogs. Result--zip! Can anyone tell me if these stays, which she feels are necessary to support the tall collar, are in fact available? And if not, what is a good substitute? Thanks! Angela Gottfred gottfred@agt.net ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 19:46:18 -0700 From: gwjchris@ix.netcom.com (Bill and Glenna Christen) Subject: Re: Crocet timeframe You wrote: >....crochet came into English via old french, "croc" meaning hook, and >that ladies of the French nobility began writing of it in the mid 19th >century. And that the craft was taken from the continent to England >and America by ladies educated in the convents on the continent. It must have caught on quickly since the ladies magazines of the early 1860's (if not before) often included crochet patterns. Knitting was more common, but without doing a formal survey, I'd guess they were as common as netting patterns were... Yet more fuel for the fire. :-) Glenna Jo Christen gwjchris@ix.netcom.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:40:19 -0700 From: Joan Broneske Subject: RE: Zigzag collar stays, 3" I believe that Alter Years sells 3" stays for collars Joan ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 09:25:48 -0400 From: MDSDMB@aol.com Subject: Re: RE: Zigzag collar stays, 3" I found 7" wire for making colloar stays in the catalog RICHARD THE THREAD 1-800-473-4997. Hope this helps, Mary Denise Smith ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 07:03:26 -0700 From: Chelsea Hoffmann Subject: Re: Crochet time frame Try _The History of Crochet_, published by Interweave. In the 16th C, crochet is still obscure and is sometimes called "Shepherd's Knitting." Apparently, shepherds would make a hook out of lamb bone, finger spin or drop spin the rovings from their flock, and crochet things like tams and mittens. I think crochet lace comes after other forms of lace (like tatting). This is all from memory, so check the book. Hope that helps. Chelsea ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 10:35:07 -0400 From: Gileshill@aol.com Subject: Re: Costume sources in London Fran Grimble wrote: >You may already know this, but most parts of England are readily accessible >from London in a few hours via their train service which is excellent. I >would recommend side trips to see the Museum of Costume at Bath and the >Gallery of English Costume in Manchester. > I would also recommend the Nottingham Museum of Costume... they have a very well displayed collection of c1750-1900 clothing, and some pieces of blackwork I've never seen published anywhere. Someday, I'm going back there with a really good camera, and a couple of days to chart stuff... Giles ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 09:36:45 -0700 (PDT) From: Katy Bishop Subject: Re: Zigzag collar stays, 3" I usually make my own collar stays out of milliners wire, making an oval loop at the top, bending the wire in a serpentine shape to the length needed for the collar, and then making another oval at the bottom. I have taken the proportions from an original turn of the Century collar stay. Fine milliner's wire is very easy to bend, flexes with the neck in wearing and is more comfortable than featherboning. I would be happy to send a xerox of the stay to show the proportions. -Katy Katy Bishop, Vintage Victorian vintage@netcom.com Authentic reproduction gowns of the Victorian Era. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 13:03:48 -0400 (EDT) From: "Penny E. Ladnier" Subject: London Costume Book Store When I was in London recently, there was a bookstore named Frank's. It carries on books on costume, only. This place is wonderful, it has all kinds of books on fashion new and old. The London College of Fashion recommended it to us. It is just a couple of blocks from the college. There are not out of print books at the store. It is worth seeing. Also, check out the National Gallery, but not for books. Penny E. Ladnier, Virginia Commonwealth University s0peladn@erols.com Http://www.geocities.com/BourbonStreet/2157 Pennies from Heaven, where it's always reigning money,or at least my kids think so. $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 13:28:25 EST From: "laura yungblut" Subject: Re: London Costume Book Store > When I was in London recently, there was a bookstore named Frank's. > It carries on books on costume, only. This place is wonderful, it > has all kinds of books on fashion new and old. The London College > of Fashion recommended it to us. It is just a couple of blocks from > the college. There are not out of print books at the store. It is > worth seeing. Where is the London College of Fashion? I'm going to London at the end of July and would like to find Frank's. Laura Yungblut yungblut@checkov.hm.udayton.edu ******************************************** Domina Misericordia non domi erit hac nocte. ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 13:26:15 -0400 (EDT) From: aleed Subject: Mary Tudor's Wardrobe Accounts Everybody, At the moment I'm getting together a paper on Mary Tudor and Edward the IV's wardrobe accounts. In an effort to organize it all and make it easier to categorize, I made Mary's accounts into a database and hacked together a simple CGI script to search through it on different criteria. At the moment it's pretty spare--I haven't added any info on what the different fabrics are, or what the different garments looked like--but if any of you are idley curious, the script's at http://www.dnaco.net/~aleed/corsets/mary/maryform.html While I'm at it, does anyone know what the fabrics scarlet and sarcanet looked like, and what the nearest modern equivalents would be? Thanks, Drea - ------------------------------- We've secretly replaced their dilithium crystals with new folgers crystals. Now let's watch them go to warp. - ------------------------------- ------------------------------ End of H-Costume Digest V4 #136 ******************************* A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, send the command lines: unsubscribe h-costume-digest subscribe h-costume end in the body of a message to majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com. Thanks and enjoy the list!