From: owner-h-costume-digest (H-Costume Digest) To: h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Subject: H-Costume Digest V4 #139 Reply-To: h-costume Sender: owner-h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Errors-To: owner-h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Precedence: bulk H-Costume Digest Thursday, June 20 1996 Volume 4, Number 139 Compilation copyright (C) 1996 Diane Barlow Close and Gretchen M Beck Use in whole prohibited. Individual articles are the property of the author. Seek permission from that author before reprinting or quoting elsewhere. Important Addresses: Send submissions to: h-costume@lunch.engr.sgi.com (or reply to this message). Adds/drops/archives: majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com Real, live person: h-costume-request@andrew.cmu.edu Topics: Re: SPANGLES Re: spangles Re: spangles Re: H-costume move Re: Spangles answer to Jane Eyre query Various Early Corsets Re: London - Where is? Thank you costuming (fwd) Re: H-costume move RE: Thank you Codpiece Int'l hair cages Re: spangles Re: Codpieces Research Re: H-costume move fwd: re: hair cages ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 18 Jun 96 18:46:32 EDT From: "Sandra J. Westergren" <74133.704@CompuServe.COM> Subject: Re: SPANGLES Greetings When I did spangles on Elizabethian Ruffs, I hunted everywhere for something affordable and commercially available. I ended up taking apart costume earrings that I bought off a clearance rack. Each earring had 5 spangles dangling from a pressed gold tone metal hoop, giving 10 per pair. I think I bought them (roughly a year ago) for $1.00 a pair. Added benefit is that I now have a supple of jumprings. And the hoops and pierced posts if I ever come up with a use for them. Can't guarantee that anyone else will find the same now or for an equally good price, but it's an avenue to explore. Sandy Westergren Minneapolis, Minnesota SCA Mistress Cassandra of the Western Green Nordskogen - Northshield - Middle ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 19:21:28 -0400 From: Ngelina@aol.com Subject: Re: spangles Hope someone can recommend something more convienient, but Hedgehog Handworks, PO Box 45384, Westchester, CA 90045, (310) 670-6040, carries a full range of spangles in gold, and I believe in silver, too. They aren't cheap, but they're made exactly as the Elizabethan ones were. No affiliation--I just spend too much money there! Karen/Angelina ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jun 96 23:26:26 GMT From: tigger@fastlane.net (Kim Ann Innes) Subject: Re: spangles On 6/18/96 7:19AM, in message , Jon Bagguley wrote: > Does anyone know where I can get something resembling the spangles used > on Elizabethan outfits. You see them on cuffs, ruffs, feathers and as > decorations on bodices etc. They are small oval flat metal droppers like small > oval sequins pierced at one end so they hang. They are normally in gold > though I would also be interested in silver. > I live in England so a source over here would be ideal but I would > happily pay postage from anywhere to get some as it is for my wedding. > > Esther Reeves ( on my partner's account, the silver ones are for him !) There used to be a bead shop on Princes Street (I think) in London that had the real metal spangles; I bought them there once. The ones I got were round with the hole in the center, but they were perfect. As I recall, the name of the store was "The Bead Shop" but I'm not positive about that. They sell all kinds of beads, pearls, etc. I hope this helps.... - -- Kim (tigger@fastlane.net or tigger@cyberramp.net) For imported trim; publications on costume, embroidery, and heraldry: http://www.fastlane.net/~tigger/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 17:14:40 -0700 From: Joan Broneske Subject: Re: H-costume move To All, I just wanted to say that I was saddened on hearing that Diane will no longer be able to keep the h-costume mailing list. I love this list and feel as if I know the people on it, even though I have never met them nor really spoken to them. I have mostly been a lurker, but have occasionally asked for advice and received what I needed plus more. I have learned more than I could have anywhere else and this list has been my main force for logging onto my e-mail 100 times a day :) I want to thank Diane for all she has done and I hope that she finds someone who can carry on the torch. I would volunteer, but I don't have the facilities. Joan Broneske unicorn@calweb.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 11:45:24 +1000 From: s-randles@adfa.oz.au (Sarah Randles) Subject: Re: Spangles >Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 13:19:40 +1 >From: Jon Bagguley >Subject: spangles > >Does anyone know where I can get something resembling the spangles used >on Elizabethan outfits. Do your markets, Oxfam shops etc. have the rash of Burmese elephant caps, bags etc that we have seen in Australia in recent years? They are usually padded sewn on velvet with little brass spangles, and are very cheap, made for the overseas market. I managed to buy some of these and canabalise them for the spangles. Sarah Sarah Randles English Department University College ADFA Canberra ACT 2601 AUSTRALIA email: s-randles@adfa.oz.au phone: 06 268 8898 fax: 06 268 8899 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 23:30:34 -0400 From: Gaelscot@aol.com Subject: answer to Jane Eyre query I don't know about other areas of the country, but the film "Jane Eyre" did play in Cincinnati for a week or two and I saw it. My personal verdict: filming -- great; sets -- great; costumes -- great. As for the story ... it was very good for most of the film, but I found the ending completely flat -- even flatter than I remember the book being (and even as a child I couldn't see what made Mr. Rochester such a great prize after he was blinded and crippled). The actress who played Jane was not as homely as the reviews I read suggested -- but she was extremely severe in both looks and dress. I kept wondering if they had to sew her into her gowns, they were so tight. She came across as pretty dour, and displayed exemplary bravery for a woman in a film, but a complete lack of curiosity. The film was slow but entertaining until the wedding scene, and then the main characters seemed to lose all chemistry and interest. Luckily, that was almost the end. As for Mr. Rochester -- I thought he was just right (until, again, the end). I didn't know who the actor was -- some English guy who looked like William Hurt, I thought. It WAS William Hurt. Anyway, it's no "Age of Innocence," or even "Persuasion." But it's definitely worth seeing and the costumes ARE good. Gail Finke gaelscot@aol.com ------------------------------ Date: 19 Jun 96 12:01:00 GMT From: Mrs C S Yeldham Subject: Various I seem to be having trouble getting through, so I hope this does. Spangles - in the UK the best source is the Royal School of Needlework, who do a wide range of gold stuff difficult to find elsewhere. I bought some in 1989. They are based at Hampton Court. The Elizabethan spangle is smaller than the modern or folk one. Codpieces - the reference to the biggest codpiece I've ever heard of said as big as a baby's head, and relates to England in the 1540s or possibly early 1550s. This is a long way off 12 or 24 inches, and also suggests the width was as important as the length. As to censorship, the recent programme on English TV about the cleaning of Holbein's 'Ambassador's' picture, did seem to indicate that in a previous cleaning and retouching the figure on the left had lost his codpiece, the picture just shows the edges of his trunkhose and it is fairly difficult to see details there. I suspect this is only because that area of paint had been previously damaged and needed repair (clearly shown on the X rays). There are plenty of pictures showing codpieces, and for that theory to be true the area around the codpieces would show overpainting in a later style. It is usually possible to see where that kind of overpainting has taken place, especially Victorian! It might be worth writing to a museum holding a collection of suitable paintings and asking if they have been X-rayed. I'm not sure about the 'display' of male genitalia. (usual disclaimer, England here) Even in the period of split hose and short doublets (basically 15th century before the hose were sewn up towards the end of the century) men wore braes and long shirts. Even in bathing scenes the men tend to be wearing braes of some sort. Of course, the meaning (literal and social) of 'naked' has changed. Some references to a man being naked clearly mean he is unarmed, but fully dressed. There were also occasions when men would be literally naked in public (eg bathing) and if a woman was around she would not see - but this went on until the Victorian period. Good luck Caroline ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 08:21:14 -0400 From: Dale Loberger Subject: Early Corsets >At 02:15 PM 6/5/96 -0400, Drea wrote: >OK. I have been searching high and low for the origin of the elizabethan >corset, along with material evidence, and the pickings are slim. All I've >been able to find are the pair of bodies and the corset in Janet Arnold's >book, the corset on the effigy of Queen Elizabeth, and very late 17th >century corsets. Does /anyone/ know of extant corsets from before 1550, >excluding the ones I've mentioned? Even small pieces of them? I'd be >very grateful for any scrap. > >Drea >I have not seen any references to actual surviving 'corsets', or to use the >16th century term, 'a pair of bodies'. One problem is the language; 'a pair >of bodies' could be used to describe the 'bodies' of a gown or something >worn under a gown, either of which could be 'stiffened'. Other than the >remains you list, as far as I know, our only references are pictures and >text descriptions. >Wish it were otherwise. >Joan Jurancich >In *Corsets and Crinolines*, Norah Waugh writes, "The soft, flowing lines of the mediaeval period followed the natural figure; no artificial shape was given to the body. Of course it is quite likely that about the middle of the fourteenth century, when clothes began to mould the figure, the older woman who had lost her shape, or the woman who never had one, wore her under-robe of stouter material and laced it more tightly; and when in the fifteenth century the waist became high and small and extra band of stiff material may have helped to make her "middle small"; but it is unlikely that any artificial stiffening was added." She goes on to explain the origin of the body shaping devices we have come to call corsets, although she is careful to explain that the first context of the actual word "corset" "applies to an outer garment and was not used in the modern sense." (Corsets and Crinolines, p. 17). Check it out; there are pages and pages and all worth reading. The frontispiece shows a painting c. 1460 showing the ladies wearing stiffened bodices…the origins of the "boned body." It is available from Amazon Drygoods and The Unicorn, among others. Susannah Eanes, Mantua Maker and Fine Tailoring (Susan B. Loberger, Susannah’s Heirloom, Ltd.) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 07:18:55 +0000 From: Giulia de Cesare Subject: Re: London - Where is? Oh dear, forced to de-lurk after all these years, but this is worth sharing. There is a bookshop on the corner of Great Titchfield St and Market Place, a few minutes' walk from the Oxford Circus Tube stop, which caters to the fashion industry. You never saw so many glossy fashion mags from all over the world piled high (but not, unfortunately, sold cheap.) As well as the contemporary stuff the back wall in devoted mostly to historical costume books.The shop is called R.D.Franks Ltd, Kent House, Market Place, Oxford Circus, London, W1N 8EJ. I went there for the first time a couple of weeks ago and bought two of the Jean Hunnisett Period Costumes for Stage and Screen books. I will probably visit it every time I go to London from now on. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 11:39:36 -0400 From: mhamilto@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Marsha Hamilton) Subject: Thank you ......It is with sadness mixed with joy that I announce we (my husband >and I) are leaving Silicon Graphics and must close or move our mailing >lists by June 28, 1996............... >I'm sad that this will mean such a disruption for everyone who has had it >so good using mailing list services for free courtesy of SGI over the past >few years........................ Diane, I can't thank you enough for your work with h-costume. And thanks too to Silicon Graphics for their support. Their courtesy in allowing use of time and equipment has been a true service to the e-community! I have learned so much from this group. Thank you again. Marsha Hamilton ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 13:17:31 -0400 (EDT) From: aleed Subject: costuming (fwd) Dear listfolk, here's a request I recieved that I thought one of you might be able to help with. - ------------------------------------------------------------------ Are there any pages or books I could access that would shed some light on lady's-in-waiting costume. I work at the Michigan Renaissance Festival, and this year I have been elevated to the position of lady-in-waiting on the Royal Court. I will be playing a French character. If you know of something or someone who can help please contact me at anthony@pc1.advonline.com. Thanks, Alexandra Berardi ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 14:07:03 -0400 From: RBarber854@aol.com Subject: Re: H-costume move Wow, ditto. I hope someone can take this over and will contact all of us who so dearly love the list. Roxy Barber ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Jun 96 17:36:02 PDT From: CHES@mail.io.com Subject: RE: Thank you On Wed, 19 Jun 1996 11:39:36 -0400 Marsha Hamilton wrote: >......It is with sadness mixed with joy that I announce we (my husband >>and I) are leaving Silicon Graphics and must close or move our mailing >>lists by June 28, 1996............... >>I'm sad that this will mean such a disruption for everyone who has had it >>so good using mailing list services for free courtesy of SGI over the past >>few years........................ ..o0*0o.. Ditto! I am looking into seeing if I can do it. Let me know if you find someone or not. Ciao @}\ Ches @}----`--,-- http://www.io.com/~ches/siren.html @}/ Date: 06/19/96 Time: 17:36:02 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 15:53:39 -0700 From: Subject: Codpiece Int'l This isn't really a historical comment, but I have met the Codpiece Int'l folks at a textile/apparel conference. They seem to be two professors(?) from one of the Universities in Washington State, who were doing research on historical clothing displays of sexual characteristics. THey found that the only period men had really had a chance to display (even by proxy) their primary sexual parts was during the era of the codpiece. They felt women had had many more opportunities for display, with corsets, bustles & micro- miniskirt fashions. So, they formed the Society for the Resurrection of the Codpiece & were selling some really fun T-shirts as a fund- raiser. I got to tease the man behind the table a little bit for not practicing what he was preaching, having a simple fly with no codpiece on his jeans. I'd be very interested in hearing their reply to your codpiece question. I'm curious as to what men really kept in their codpieces, if they used them as pockets (once they reached the decorative, padded period, not the early flat flaps). I had heard stories that it was "cool" in Elizabethan times, for a man to reach into his codpiece, pull out an orange or a sweet & offer it to his lady friend. Is this true, or is it another one of those "costume legends"?. Alison ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 00:23:50 -0400 From: Jafath@aol.com Subject: hair cages A little while ago someone mentioned hair "cages" for medieval hairdressing. Shopping this weekend, I saw: 1. small metal baskets (about 3x5) in the flower-arranging department 2. crocheted boxes in assorted diameters, stiffened to hold their shape, in the fabric store Has anyone tried either of these (plus a little gold paint, maybe) as "cages"? (And what's the proper name for them,anyway?) Did it work? If so, how did you secure them? (maybe combs?) If not, what went wrong? I'm determined to make this work, eventually. (Oh, spare that fireplace grille ...) Thanks Jo Anne ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 21:47:39 -0700 (PDT) From: "Sarah E. Goodman" Subject: Re: spangles > > Does anyone know where I can get something resembling the spangles used > > on Elizabethan outfits. Ok, assuming I don't get lost in language differences--go to an office supply shop and find out if they have any washers for "brads" (the little two pronged things you push through paper and fold the prongs over--sometimes they have little disks that you put on the back of the paper before you fold the prongs). For that matter, I'd check out a hardware store and see what kind of washers they had. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 10:47:16 +1 From: Jon Bagguley Subject: Re: Codpieces Research Gia Gavino-Gattshall wrote; *Someone once told me that the portraits with codpieces were unreliable, *because the people in the Victorian age 'censored' the extravagant *codpieces (is this true?!?); They have recently finished restoring Holbine's Ambassadors and on the program about the restoration they came to the conclusion that the gentleman in black probably had a cod-piece which had been removed at some point previously. I don't remember if they had any idea when this was but they seemed to feel this was not uncommon. This doesn't help in your search for mega codpieces but does backup the feeling that pictures are not always accurate. They also found several other things that had been changed some of which were probably just conservation mistakes. Of course they also revealed much detail which was hidden under grim and past conservation and filled in some gaps where the paint is lost. I shall be interested if you do find some evidence. Esther Reeves ( on mm partner's account) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 13:47:55 -0400 (EDT) From: Kathleen A Macey Subject: Re: H-costume move On Wed, 19 Jun 1996 RBarber854@aol.com wrote: > Wow, ditto. I hope someone can take this over and will contact all of us who > so dearly love the list. > > Roxy Barber > Good Luck Diane! You did a great service. I will miss this. Kitty Macey ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Jun 96 11:39:53 MDT From: mgriggs@shepards.com Subject: fwd: re: hair cages Comments By: Margaret Griggs@IST@Shepards Originally To: inet[h-costume@lunch.engr.sgi.com] Originally From: Margaret Griggs@IST@Shepards Original Date: 6/20/96 9:16 AM Comments: Well, I think my system lost this one, so I'll send it through again. Besides, I just remembered one other way I've seen the cages held in place. Attach them to a thin circlet and add a few hair pins to hold them in place over the hair. Haven't tried this yet, but it sounds promissing. Lyssa - -------------------------[Original Message]-------------------------- Jafath%aol.com@internet.shepards.com Wrote: | | A little while ago someone mentioned hair "cages" for medieval hairdressing. | Shopping this weekend, I saw: | | 1. small metal baskets (about 3x5) in the flower-arranging department | 2. crocheted boxes in assorted diameters, stiffened to hold their shape, in | the fabric store | | Has anyone tried either of these (plus a little gold paint, maybe) as | "cages"? (And what's the proper name for them,anyway?) Did it work? If so, | how did you secure them? (maybe combs?) If not, what went wrong? | | I'm determined to make this work, eventually. (Oh, spare that fireplace | grille ...) | | Thanks | Jo Anne I haven't tried these two items, but I did locate some actual wire cages for accessorizing hair buns in a teen clothing shop. They were designed to be used with a wire rod which would hold it to the bun. I used hair pins as I couldn't see any sign of the rods in any of the portraits. This worked okay for about 1 hour. The cages were just a bit small to get the proper look and tended to slip despite the number of pins used. The addition of a light veiling between the two cages and behind my head helped to alleviate that "Princess Leia" look, but did kind of lend itself to what was termed the "Ferengi look." It also assisted the cages out of place at almost every turn. I'm still experimenting with other variations. The 3x5 baskets sound like a better match for the size, especially if they are round or oval shaped. I'd try a combination of hair combs and hair pins. If your hair isn't long enough to fill out the baskets, find a good wig store with hair pieces or try some of the other methods I've seen mentioned on the list for enhancing hair volume for different styles. Braided pieces could be used to line the extra space to improve the look. This'll give it a bit more weight and will require a more firm support structure. I can't remember if the wimple was ever used in conjunction with the cages, but if it was it would make supporting the cages a bit simpler. I think I would forgo the crocheted baskets. They wouldn't give you the proper appearance of the metal baskets. They would be lighter and perhaps easier to secure though. Good Luck! Lyssa - ----------------------------------------------- Lady Leofsige O Caoimh Dragonsspine, Outlands mgriggs@shepards.com lyssa@kktv.com http://www.usa.net/~norseman/dragon.html - ----------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ End of H-Costume Digest V4 #139 ******************************* A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, send the command lines: unsubscribe h-costume-digest subscribe h-costume end in the body of a message to majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com. Thanks and enjoy the list!