automatic digest processor [16,0]CSuX:h-costume digest - 30 dec 1996 to 31 dec 1996 Subject: H-COSTUME Digest - 30 Dec 1996 to 31 Dec 1996 From: Automatic digest processor Date: Wed, 1 Jan 1997 00:00:34 -0500 There are 13 messages totalling 501 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. H-COSTUME Digest - 22 Dec 1996 to 23 Dec 1996 2. Queen Margot Costumes / Supportasses 3. C. 1870-1880s PATTERNS-MME. DEMOREST (3) 4. Silhouette Form 5. Authenticity and theatre 6. C. 1870-1880S PATTERNS--MME. DEMOREST (3) 7. gloves 8. Help with 1920's costume for Gobi desert paleontologists (LONG) 9. HMSO "Textiles and Clothing" ---------------------------------------------------------------------- don and carolyn richardson [20,1]CSuX:h-costume digest - 22 dec 1996 to 23 dec 1996 Subject: Re: H-COSTUME Digest - 22 Dec 1996 to 23 Dec 1996 From: don and carolyn richardson Date: Mon, 30 Dec 1996 22:07:50 -0800 David & Anita Pirkle wrote: > > A less expensive alternative is to put on an old (disposable), long > T-shirt and wrap over it (around your torso and up over your shoulders) > with duct tape. After a couple layers, you cut it off up the back (or > the front, if you're brave or trusting). Pull it off, duct tape over the > seam, and stuff it with old sheets/blankets, such that it conforms to > your shape. I've done this when I couldn't afford a "Uniquely You" - but what I did after cutting the duct taped T shirt off was cut it into about 8 pieces and make a body out of it, then fit that again (the duct tape really flattened my breasts more than it should have so I was trying for more accuracey). I used this for a couple years before getting my dress form - I can recommend it. Tetchubah ------------------------------ thea goldsby [25,2]CSuX:queen margot costumes / supportasses Subject: Queen Margot Costumes / Supportasses From: Thea Goldsby Date: Tue, 31 Dec 1996 03:55:27 -0500 Danielle Nunn writes: > Now thing I'm curious about is the collars and supportasses. Can anyone > point me toward some refrences (esp. pictures) of supportasses other than > what is in Philip Stubbs? See if you can get your local library to ILL an article for you: Waffen-und Kost_umkunde, M_unchen, Berlin: Deutsher Kunstverlag, 1959- -- v , pt 2 (1973): pp109-24 ( _u = u umlaut) Arnold, Janet. "Three Examples of Late Sixteenth and Early Seventeenth- Century Neckwear" ISSN: 0042-9945 (I hope this is the information you need to give your librarian - I'm copying this from my ILL request sheet.) Pages 120 - 123 of this article discuss a lace standing band with wire supportasse c. 1610-20. If you can't find a copy of the article, give me a buzz and I'll send you a copy. Thea TheaG@aol.com ------------------------------ nancy saputo [16,3]CSuX:c. 1870-1880s patterns-mme. demorest Subject: C. 1870-1880s PATTERNS-MME. DEMOREST From: Nancy Saputo Date: Tue, 31 Dec 1996 07:38:27 -0500 I have 20 Mme. Demorest's fashion patterns which, judging from the styles, date from the late 1870s to the 1880s. (By the way, the smallest *envelope* size is 4"x5-1/2".) It is interesting to note that some of the envelopes have instructions printed in English, French, Spanish, Italian, German and Dutch! I am aware that Mme. Demorest also published magazines: Demorest's Illustrated Monthly Magazine The Demorest Quarterly Journal of Fashions Nancy Saputo ------------------------------ tc carstensen [30,4]CSuX:c. 1870-1880s patterns-mme. demorest Subject: Re: C. 1870-1880s PATTERNS-MME. DEMOREST From: TC Carstensen Date: Tue, 31 Dec 1996 11:28:59 +0000 Nancy Saputo wrote: > I have 20 Mme. Demorest's fashion patterns which, judging from the styles, > date from the late 1870s to the 1880s. (By the way, the smallest *envelope* > size is 4"x5-1/2".) Ooh, patterns from the cuirass body era. I am green with envy! :) How did they fit a pattern from that era into such a small envelope? I'm guessing that either it was just a pattern diagram instead of a full-size pattern, the pieces overlapped like mad, or it was a pattern for a smaller article of clothing, such as a mantle. BTW, does anyone know if any of the reproduction pattern companies will be coming out with a cuirass body gown pattern soon? I do have some pattern diagrams for dresses of that era, but I don't trust my skills to do an adequate job of enlarging and fitting them correctly. > QUESTION: Was Mme. Demorest the *first* to create and sell patterns? According to _American Dress Pattern Catalogs, 1873-1909: Four Complete Reprints_, edited by Nancy Villa Bryk, Demorest's Monthly Magazine was the first to offer *custom fit* patterns in 1864. Before that, other magazines did contain full-size patterns, but they only came in one size and had to be adjusted to the individual. TC Carstensen eccentri@sprynet.com *** http://home.sprynet.com/sprynet/eccentri/ ------------------------------ frances grimble [23,5]CSuX:c. 1870-1880s patterns-mme. demorest Subject: Re: C. 1870-1880s PATTERNS-MME. DEMOREST From: Frances Grimble Date: Tue, 31 Dec 1996 09:21:48 -0800 > > QUESTION: Was Mme. Demorest the *first* to create and sell patterns? > Nancy, No. The first published tailoring manual to contain patterns (that we know of) is Juan de Alcega's 1580 _Libro de Geometria, practica, y traca_. This was followed by others, with patterns for men, women, or both, with a great many published throughout the 19th century. In England, the 1782 _New Lady's Magazine_ included pattern diagrams, as did other periodicals thereafter. From the beginning of the 19th century, stores in London sold paper patterns. In America, _Le Bon Ton and Le Moniteur de la Mode United_, published in New York, offered patterns by mail order beginning in 1851. Publication of _Mme. Demorest's Mirror of Fashion_ did not begin till 1861. For a great deal more information on the history of patterns, see Claudia Kidwell's _Cutting a Fashionable Fit_ and Kevin Seligman's _Cutting for All_. Fran Grimble ------------------------------ kathleen songal [17,6]CSuX:silhouette form Subject: Silhouette Form From: Kathleen Songal Date: Tue, 31 Dec 1996 13:12:16 -0500 I received a "Uniquely You" dress form for Christmas and wish to tell everyone how well it turned out. None of the adjustable dress forms on the market would adjust to fit my measurements, but the Uniquely You turned out perfectly. It did not take much time either. I fit the poplin cover to my body measurements in one evening and the next day it took about 45 minutes to cut the huge breasts that came on the form down to my small size. My husband used a razor blade and he removed just a little foam rubber at a time until the cover fit the form exactly. I am so very pleased with the results--the 1812 stays (corset) that I made to fit me now grace the form and fit the form the same way the stays fit me. I will be able to now fit and drape 1812 dresses directly on the form. My thanks to everyone who recommended this dress form. Kathy Songal ------------------------------ vandy simpson/darrell markewitz [41,7]CSuX:authenticity and theatre Subject: Re: Authenticity and theatre From: vandy simpson/darrell markewitz Date: Tue, 31 Dec 1996 13:11:45 -0500 Greetings. I had a sudden amusing reminiscence when I read: >>another thing you have to bear in mind is that some artists have to >>change costumes rather quickly, sometimes in a couple of minutes and >>that is impossible for some periods if you stick to authenticity. >Actually, it is possible to make a costume for a quick change that looks >totally historically accurate, but it may not be constructed accurately. >(And that's not a big goal in theatre anyways). A lot of times, non >functional buttons will be sewn on the garment, and hidden snaps sewn on >below, so the garment can be used in a quick change. On a Restoration production I was Wardrobe Mistress/First Hand/Dresser for, I had one [of many] quick changes, where every performance I cut the lacing up the back of one gown, peeled the actress out of it, and laced her into the next one.And before every performance, I then had to stitch in new laces.[had to be well anchored for the quick change INTO that dress/ less quick than out of it, thank goodness!] Fortunately, the actress liked the dress she was changing into, in the quickest change. There was one dress she hated, and she always balked at it, and insisted it didn't fit her, and would constrict her lungs, and really wanted it cut from the show.The very first dress rehearsal she expanded her rib cage, and fussed and fretted, and literally roared onto stage with the lacing half undone.(yes, she WAS very much like a temperamental thoroughbred race horse!) I eventually molly-coddled her into a state of neutrality about it, but it did help speed the change out of it each show! Thanks for reminding me of it.It was a very enjoyable production on the whole. Vandy Simpson ****************************************************************************** vsimpson@headwaters.com = Vandy Simpson, or Darrell Markewitz postings for the Wareham Forge can be sent to: wareham.forge@headwaters.com ------------------------------ nancy saputo [27,8]CSuX:c. 1870-1880s patterns--mme. demorest Subject: C. 1870-1880S PATTERNS--MME. DEMOREST From: Nancy Saputo Date: Tue, 31 Dec 1996 15:21:59 -0500 Thank you, Fran and TC for your information. I was looking for the date when separate envelopes of patterns were offered to the public...which appears to be the early 1860s (and, of course, sewing machines were making their way into women's homes--makes sense to me). However, I found it interesting that the first tailoring manual to contain patterns was published in 1580! Fran--was Juan de Alcega Spanish? are tissue patterns for both the basque and skirt! Needless to say, the envelope bulges! However, the tissue patterns have NO PRINTING on them! (Mind you, these patterns are in very delicate condition, and I dare not open them!) All instructions appear on the back side of the envelope. Does anyone know when seam allowances, darts, etc., first began to appear on the tissue patterns themselves? The patterns I have include a Beatrice Princess Dress, Camille Polonaise, Berenice Walking Skirt, Breton Nightdress, Walking Petticoat, Gwendoline Train, Lisbeth Hood, Gored Waterproof Cloak, to name a few. And for the Nancy Saputo ------------------------------ northshield folk [39,9]CSuX:gloves Subject: gloves From: Northshield Folk Date: Tue, 31 Dec 1996 16:02:20 -0500 I found two pairs of gloves at Goodwill the other day. I am trying to estimate how old they are. One pair is brown leather with a "belt" around the wrist, and a long large gauntlet. I am guessing maybe the 60's from the style. the tag has no name but it says made in Japan and the RN27219, I don't know how to reference RN numbers to find out the manufacturer. The tag is obviously one printed in the 50's-60's from the style of it. Anyone got a guess? The second pair are elbow length, brown sort of a suede like cloth. the edges are left raw. They have drawcords down the front and back of the arms. Much of the finish work is hand stitched. Printed on the inside is Elevette Royal by dawnelle Made in USA. The style of the printing and tag look to be 40's or 50's . Both pairs have not ever been worn, and smell strongly of cedar/mothballs. Does anyone have any ideas on dating these, or tips on how to better date an item. Nancy Laughlin - Foust shadewescompany@on-ramp.com Glory,Magesty,Unity Warriors of the Northshield and the Known World ------------------------------ margo anderson [16,10]CSuX:c. 1870-1880s patterns--mme. demorest Subject: Re: C. 1870-1880S PATTERNS--MME. DEMOREST From: Margo Anderson Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 15:06:15 -0800 > >However, the tissue patterns have NO PRINTING on them! (Mind you, these >patterns are in very delicate condition, and I dare not open them!) All >instructions appear on the back side of the envelope. Does anyone know when >seam allowances, darts, etc., first began to appear on the tissue patterns >themselves? > >My mother remembers that when she was learning to sew as a child, (1930's-40's) only one company (Vogue?) had printed patterns. All the other had seam lines, darts, etc, marked with perforations. Margo Anderson ------------------------------ margo anderson [20,11]CSuX:help with 1920 s costume for gobi desert paleontologists (long) Subject: Re: Help with 1920's costume for Gobi desert paleontologists (LONG) From: Margo Anderson Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 15:29:48 -0800 Kay Lancaster wrote: >I'm newly subscribed to this list, in hope that someone might give me >a few suggestions. A science museum that I volunteer at is having >an exhibition of dinosaurs and a few mammal fossils from the Gobi >desert. As a sidelight on "how paleontologists excavate" we're also >having docents demonstrate excavation and cataloging. That's the easy >part. ;-) The hard part is the excavation is modeled on the Roy >Chapman Andrews digs in the 1920's (he's the guy "Indiana Jones" >was sort of modeled on). Proper costumes for the males won't be >too difficult -- we've got photos from Andrews' Gobi digs. BUT... some >of our volunteers are female, and we need to costume them in period. > >Hi Kay I took the liberty of posting this request to my husband's dinosaur mailing list. It was down for the Christmas holiday, so it took a while, but here are your responses. >From AngelaM421@aol.com Fri Dec 27 13:32:42 1996 angelam421@aol.com[11,12]CSuX:1920 s female paleontologist garb Subject: Re: 1920's female paleontologist garb From: AngelaM421@aol.com Date: Fri, 27 Dec 1996 16:32:09 -0500 Hope this is helpful. I have seen a picture of women tourists collecting fossils at a train stop at the turn of the century. They were wearing big decorated hats, white blouses and full dark skirts. I think I saw this picture in the museum at the fossil beds in Florissant, CO. Give them a call 1- 719-748-3253. Marie Wormington, archeologist, wore shirts and pants. This was in the 1930s when women sometimes wore pants anyway. >From dphillip@duke.poly.edu Fri Dec 27 14:25:17 1996 donald phillips (ss) [23,13]CSuX:1920 s female paleontologist garb Subject: Re: 1920's female paleontologist garb From: "Donald Phillips (ss)" Date: Fri, 27 Dec 1996 17:28:28 -0500 (EST) Dear Ms. Anderson: I have seen many photos from American Museum of Natural History's expeditions in the early part of this century, and some do contain shots of women (in fact, if my memory serves me correctly (and it may not), there was a woman (journalist?, photographer?) who documented some parts of one of Roy Chapman Andrew's "adventures". I vaguely remember her in a loose kaki blouse tucked into either a ankle length skirt or very "billowy" trousers (I don't know what they're called). And, of course, this was one of the periods of female adventurers / explorers. Either way, why don't you contact the library at the American Museum. They have books full of endless numbers of photos of that era. Their phone number is 212-769-5000. Ask for the library. Also, I know an antique book dealer who has lots of photos and books with photos of explorations of that period, including, I'm sure, some with women explorers. If interested, I could give you his address / phone. Contact me off the group if you want it. Don Phillips N.Y. Paleontological Society >From dboaz@juno.com Fri Dec 27 21:57:26 1996 dboaz@juno.com (debra r boaz)[64,14]CSuX:1920 s female paleontologist garb Subject: Re: 1920's female paleontologist garb From: dboaz@juno.com (Debra R Boaz) Date: Sat, 28 Dec 1996 00:56:52 EST Margo and Kay, Your request captured my attention. I found photos of the Andrews expedition to the Gobi - no females on that trip, unfortunately. BUT - I have a photo of a raft that Barnum Brown made for travel on the Red Deer River, and there are 2 women standing with several men. Their dress looks like "Sunday-go-to-meeting", dark colors, lace collars, long (mid calf) skirts. (The photo is on page 32 of "The American Museum of Natural History's Book of Dinosaurs".) There are several photos of Barnum Brown (in one he's wearing a raccoon coat - looks quite the dandy!). Personally, I would go for khaki colors, maybe jhodpurs or a very full split (riding??) skirt, or trousers (something you could move in without revealing anything) - something like "Amelia Earhart does Indiana Jones". For a hat, I would probably go with either an "Indy" (fedora?? or Stetson??) or a pith helmet, or maybe a wide brimmed ladies hat, without the foofuraw. Probably rimless or wire-rimmed glasses, period shoes/boots, bobbed hair or up in a bun. If all else fails, get your "inspiration" from the women in those wonderful and historically accurate (I don't think so ) Tarzan movies - the Johnny Wiesmuller ones! I don't think the public will quibble over the historic detail as long as you have the general "look". The person to contact to find out about women paleontologists or if the wives went on expeditions, would probably be Margaret Colbert. You should be able to reach her via the Museum of Northern Arizona, Route 4, Box 720, Flagstaff, AZ 86001 - her husband Edwin H. Colbert is paleontology curator emeritus there. She is a sweet and gracious lady. Kay - what museum are you affiliated with? Our paleo club with the Mesa Southwest Museum in Mesa, Arizona often does an information booth, and I usually dress as "Indianna Jane" - khaki cargo pants, "safari" type shirt, "the hat" of course, boots and wire-framed aviator glasses. (Never mind that my usual field outfit is jeans and a t-shirt! ) The outfit gives the right effect, anyway and I've received many compliments from the public - "real paleontologists" just look at me with a pained expression. I'm sorry for all the ??'s in my descriptions, as I don't really know the "proper names" of the items of clothing. I'm a born-again tomboy, and my general wardrobe tends toward the "Indy" look, anyway, something my boss barely tolerates! I hope this helps somewhat. I would appreciate hearing back from you if you find out anything else about women paleontologists in the 20's. As a last thought, I checked "The Encyclopedia of Dinosaurs - Facts and Fiction about the World's Largest Creatures" by Bloomsbury Press. Chapter 6 is entitled "Dinosaurologists" and lists most of the major paleontologists and their discoveries. There are very few identifiable women's names, and most of these come from the late 30's or 40's. Good luck on your search! Debra Boaz Southwest Paleontological Society Treasurer and Editor in Chief In addition, a comment on your observation that botonists in old photos have dressed in suits and ties because they knew they were being photographed, and that this was not the way they dressed in real life: I believe that they may very well have worn suits and ties in the field. The standard casual wear for men in the the first half of the century was pants, shirt, jacket, and tie. Over the holidays I got to see our newly restored gamily album, and there were numerous pictures of my grandfather and his brothers in the 1920's, golfing, picnicking, playing baseball, and even camping -- and they all wore ties. Sometimes they're in "sports clothes" --knickers and sweaters, but still worn with shirts and ties. ------------------------------ frances grimble [42,15]CSuX:c. 1870-1880s patterns--mme. demorest Subject: Re: C. 1870-1880S PATTERNS--MME. DEMOREST From: Frances Grimble Date: Tue, 31 Dec 1996 15:51:07 -0800 > I was looking for the date when separate envelopes of patterns were offered > to the public...which appears to be the early 1860s (and, of course, sewing > machines were making their way into women's homes--makes sense to me). The paper patterns Seligman mentioned as being sold in London in the early 19th century appear to have been separate patterns, not bound into books or magazines, and were available to anyone who entered the store and bought them. A few years ago Seligman reprinted several, for 1820s men's shirt collars, in _The Cutter's Research Journal_. > Fran--was Juan de Alcega Spanish? Yes. Professional tailors and dressmakers are supposed to have had sets of patterns (not necessarily paper; at least sometimes they were thin wood) in the 13th century and possibly earlier. These were given to the tailor or dressmaker by the master who trained him/her. Alcega's book is supposed to have been the first to publish patterns for the public; that is anyone who bought the book. The Spanish tailor's guild unsuccessfully tried to block publication. > However, the tissue patterns have NO PRINTING on them! (Mind you, these > patterns are in very delicate condition, and I dare not open them!) All > instructions appear on the back side of the envelope. Does anyone know when > seam allowances, darts, etc., first began to appear on the tissue patterns > themselves? McCall's started printing pattern marks on the tissue in 1919. However, well before that it was customary to record pattern marks with perforations--holes. Each company had a slightly different system; but for example there might be three holes to mark a grain line, two for a dart--you get the idea. We have a tendency to think the invention and publication of paper patterns is an American development beginning with Butterick and depending on the sewing machine. In fact, as is described in detail by the books I mentioned, paper patterns were sold decades before Butterick in a number of countries. Fran Grimble ------------------------------ jafath@aol.com[14,16]CSuX:hmso "textiles and clothing" Subject: Re: HMSO "Textiles and Clothing" From: Jafath@AOL.COM Date: Tue, 31 Dec 1996 23:01:19 -0500 I got two copies of this book for Christmas. (I trained my daughters right about gift selection -- I just should have also trained them to check with each other!) Anyone want to buy a copy for half price? That would be about $10 -- and it's a brand new book. E-mail me at jafath@aol.com if you're interested . . . Jo Anne ------------------------------ End of H-COSTUME Digest - 30 Dec 1996 to 31 Dec 1996 **************************************************** automatic digest processor [13,17]CSuX:h-costume digest - 31 dec 1996 to 1 jan 1997 Subject: H-COSTUME Digest - 31 Dec 1996 to 1 Jan 1997 From: Automatic digest processor Date: Thu, 2 Jan 1997 00:01:04 -0500 There are 7 messages totalling 297 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. are you... (2) 2. Pattern Reviewers 3. early 1600's-Jacobean costume queries 4. Early pattern (was: 1870-1880S PATTERNS--MME. DEMOREST) 5. Tailor's masterpiece books 6. 1770's Silk Bonnets ---------------------------------------------------------------------- maggie pierce [29,18]CSuX:are you... Subject: Re: are you... From: Maggie Pierce Date: Wed, 1 Jan 1997 03:11:07 EST I never ever mind answering questions, (whether I have the answers or not ) but I am going to try to get a friend to work on this with me, since her work in this area is more recent than mine. We'll try to put together a decent biibliography for you as soon as we can dig the notebooks out from under the holiday. Thanks so much for you confidence in me. :) Maggie Countess of Southampton **You can take the girl out of the Court, but you can't take the Courtier out of the Girl!** On Sun, 29 Dec 1996 21:22:55 -0800 Renee Waldmann writes: >I am also interested in your article on Lena's In fact I show everyone >I can >your article....DO you have a book about Celtic ie Irish Costuming or >know >of any or have you written any More articles. There are quite a few of >us >that are interested in anything about this topic....I hope you don't >mind my >bothering you.. I am trying to teach people how to do the garb from >your >article...But would love other sources >Yours most humble servent >Renee ------------------------------ maggie pierce [67,19]CSuX:are you... Subject: Re: are you... From: Maggie Pierce Date: Wed, 1 Jan 1997 03:11:07 EST Forgive the hasty nature of this reply, but I also didn't want you thinking I was neglecting you :) On Mon, 30 Dec 1996 19:16:38 -0500 Arfursmom@aol.com writes: ><> > >Remember! The article is my hubbys bible! Now THAT is an awsome responsibility >The lenas are all my darling Irish Baron wears most of the time! I certainly hope he ocassionaly indulges in hose and ionar, from time to time, just to maintain his baronial dignity! :) ><scholarship in >that area has improved somewhat since then in better hands than >mine.>> > >I'd apreciate any new source information you could send. Did you ever >figure >out the early Lady version? If a Lady wore the flap I have never been >able >to figure out the drape. Forgive me, but I'm not sure what you mean by this. Are you thinking of a particular picture? >Chivarley Sports is marketing a femine version of the extremely long, >gathered sleeve of the male ren. Irish (That article was by you as >well, >wasn't it?) No, it wasn't. I know I looked at it, but I seemed to have *tidied up* my copy, or I might have some other comment on it. I'm going to see if I can't get a friend of mine to give yo a rather more authoritative response. For one thing, I'm not sure there's much justification for distinguishing between a male and female version of what is essentially universal garment. The people I go to for this period now are several members (and former members) of Clan Maccolin of Glenderry, based here in So Cal. >I >did a dress with the sleeve but felt I just was conjuncturing up a >style >based on a cross between the male sleeve and the split sleeve >Elizabethan >gown. Again, I'm not sure what you're looking at. There are VERY few actual period pictures of these clothes. To make it worse, some of the best illos are by artists never actually got to Ireland, so their authority is (or should certainly be) in some doubt. >Oh, how I'd love to pick your brain more........... Is that OK? Goodness, your Excellency, of course! I'm just not sure how solid my grasp of this area is any more, since I haven't done irish in quite some time. Any time you want to carry on about Elizabethan court dress, however... >Baroness Anntionette Rose, Swordcliffshire, Middle Kingdom > > Thanks for making my day! Maggie Countess of Southampton Mairghread-Ros FitzGarret of Desmond, OL **You can take the girl out of the Court, but you can't take the Courtier out of the Girl!** ------------------------------ dale loberger [43,20]CSuX:pattern reviewers Subject: Re: Pattern Reviewers From: Dale Loberger Date: Wed, 1 Jan 1997 16:18:15 -0500 Thank all of you who responded to my request for pattern reviewers for my historic garment patterns. I am still going through all the respondents there were nearly 80 so far! I have also been away for nearly a week. Here are answers to the most frequently asked questions: I draft by hand on a live model, (or take the pattern directly from an existing garment), then digitize the pattern into the ArcEdit module of Arc/Info mapping (GIS) software, which has links to AutoCAD. This is what I used before my present occupation when I was a cartographer, and I am used to it, so that s why I use it. (For those of you out there who may use this software at work, I know this is a hilarious use of Arc/Info. Also, if you notice our esri.com address, you will see that my hubby works for them! Free and fast --tech support!) Also, you don t have to be on-line to participate as a pattern reviewer. I just thought that I could get the message out to a lot of people that way. As to construction, some internal construction can be done by machine and the finishing done by hand for the best results. I usually try to give both a modern method and a historic method, much like Saundra does of Past Patterns. The instructions are only partly illustrated. One of the things I would like to know is if they are sufficient for most people to follow. There are good illustrations of the front and back of all the garments, in some cases photos of finished garments being worn by live models. Yardages and required notions are given. There are plenty of tidbits about originals, who/where/how to wear, fabrics, documentation, etc. in the "essay" before the actual instructions. Some of you will recognize my penchant for verbiage. I will be sending out the patterns by regular mail, or UPS if you prefer. I have had so many interesting people respond, both novices and very experienced costumers. It means a lot to me that so many are interested in helping me, and I know will give me good feedback! Thanks so much! You will be hearing from me soon. BTW, glancing through them tells me I need more responses from novices. Don t be shy you might be just what I need!!! Susannah Eanes, Mantua Maker and Fine Tailoring Susannah s Heirloom, Ltd. "We are only the trustees for those who come after us." --William Morris ------------------------------ richard smiley [44,21]CSuX:early 1600 s-jacobean costume queries Subject: early 1600's-Jacobean costume queries From: Richard Smiley Date: Wed, 1 Jan 1997 14:16:11 -0800 Hi! I'm fairly new here, so be gentle. I have done some research in Jacobean costuming. I'm looking at England approximately 1600-1625. The majority of my work is through portraiture. I have primarilly used Roy Strong's "The English Icon" and the various works of the artsits Hilliad and Oliver. I have noticed in many of pieces some unusual accessories. I'm hoping someone can explain what some of the articles are and possibly their societal function. They seem to be wearing black string. 1- The first location is a black bow at the ear. I have assumed that this is part of the earring - is the string being run through the ear as the actual hanging devise for the suspended pearl? 2- They seem to have two black strings going from the collar down into the bodice. Are these the ties to the collar? Or are they the edging of the nearly transparant partlet? 3-They have a black string wound about the wrist (usually 2 to 4 times?) usually with one strand going down to wrap around one finger. Is this attached to the ring? A possible sign of fidelity? How much of this is really fashion and how much is portrait symbolism? Does anyone know the meanings of the symbolism? I have come to a dead end on these details. I'm in the SCA, but since I am the only Jacobean costumer out here, I am pretty much stuck. If you have any good sources on this period, I would be interested to find some new places to look for information too. Thanks Karolee J. Smiley aka Mistress Kaitlin MacPherson-OL Richard Smiley Musician, Teacher and Woodworker Sacramento, CA. ------------------------------ gwyn carnegie [42,22]CSuX:early pattern (was: 1870-1880s patterns--mme. demorest) Subject: Early pattern (was: 1870-1880S PATTERNS--MME. DEMOREST) From: Gwyn Carnegie Date: Sat, 31 Aug 1996 12:03:21 At 03:21 PM 12/31/96 -0500, Nancy Saputo wrote: I was looking for the date when separate envelopes of patterns were offered to the public...which appears to be the early 1860s (and, of course, sewing machines were making their way into women's homes--makes sense to me). However, I found it interesting that the first tailoring manual to contain patterns was published in 1580! The first tailors Masterpice books that I have seen is from 1541. There are many others but the only ones I have access to are: The Masterpiece-book of Jorg Praum of Innsbruck (1541) The Masterpiece-book of Hans Nidermayr the Younger of Innsbruck (1544/1568) The Masterpiece-book of the Tailor of Enns (1590) Tailor's Book from Leonfelden (1590/1600) There is also a Italian tailors Masterpice book dating to the late 16th c. but I haven't seen the manuscript yet. (Rose, have you gotten your manuscript yet?) The thing to remember when working with these manuscripts is that they were professional texts and not intended for the layman. They assume a great deal of knowledge on behalf of the reader and are quite vague in some areas. The last Tailor's Masterpieces book I have reference to frommthe late 18th c. Funny how the date coincides with the publishing of the New Lady's Magazine and the start of the practical home guides to tailoring . This could either be due to the break- down of the guild system or due to the economics of the times......interesting;-). Does anybody have any other info on this shift from professional use to home use? Cheers Gwyn Carnegie ------------------------------ frances grimble [28,23]CSuX:tailor s masterpiece books Subject: Tailor's masterpiece books From: Frances Grimble Date: Wed, 1 Jan 1997 18:14:28 -0800 I have never seen the mid 16th-century tailor's masterpiece books someone referred to, mentioned in any history of _published_ patterns. That is patterns freely available to anyone, not just passed between a master and apprentices or among members of a tailor's guild. Were these books professional publications, freely available, and do they actually contain usable patterns, or just instructions? It is not necessary to have a published pattern for home dressmaking. An old method, used by both amateurs and professionals, was to copy an existing garment (which did not necessarily belong to the person who was to wear the new garment). This is very easy if you take the old garment apart and trace around the pieces. And not all that hard if you leave the garment intact, but trace it by molding fabric or paper around it. After the sewer copied the pattern he/she could make any desired fit or style changes for the new garment. You can also learn a lot about construction techniques by examining a garment. I think it is a mistake to assume people did no amateur sewing even during periods when the best garments were made professionally. What the sewing machine did was to give amateurs more time to tackle larger, more complex projects than they might have otherwise. And to create a larger market for published patterns, which however already existed. Fran Grimble http://www.best.com/~lavolta/dance/index.htm ------------------------------ sue & ted [14,24]CSuX:1770 s silk bonnets Subject: 1770's Silk Bonnets From: Sue & Ted Date: Wed, 1 Jan 1997 22:09:09 -0500 Happy New Year to all. In the book edited by Karen Mullian & myself, Had on and Took With Her, we found a large number of black silk bonnets listed for the 1770's time period. Does anyone know of any extant ones? I am also looking for any info on these bonnets from other sources such as paintings. I have found a couple but none are clear enough to reproduce. Thank you for any help on this item. Sue Huesken ------------------------------ End of H-COSTUME Digest - 31 Dec 1996 to 1 Jan 1997 *************************************************** automatic digest processor [20,25]CSuX:h-costume digest - 1 jan 1997 to 2 jan 1997 Subject: H-COSTUME Digest - 1 Jan 1997 to 2 Jan 1997 From: Automatic digest processor Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 00:00:56 -0500 There are 24 messages totalling 897 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. lost messages 2. The Great Zeigfeld (2) 3. Tailor's masterpiece books (7) 4. Costume of the Franks 5. H-COSTUME Digest - 31 Dec 1996 to 1 Jan 1997 6. 1980 England sources (2) 7. Various (2) 8. Need brocaded material, ca 1450+Hennin questions. (2) 9. HMSO "Textiles and Clothing" 10. Gromits and button holes and buttons (2) 11. Visiting England 12. Morality and costume 13. Eyelets in Sleeves ---------------------------------------------------------------------- glenna jo & bill christen [13,26]CSuX:lost messages Subject: lost messages From: Glenna Jo & Bill Christen Date: Thu, 2 Jan 1997 00:20:12 -0800 To the list... If anyone sent a message to Glenna Jo or myself in the past week and have not received an answer, please resend it. We lost the contents of our inbox file this afternoon. Thanks... Bill Christen gwjchris@rust.net ------------------------------ penny e. ladnier [14,27]CSuX:the great zeigfeld Subject: The Great Zeigfeld From: "Penny E. Ladnier" Date: Thu, 2 Jan 1997 01:11:41 -0500 I got to see the later half of "The Great Zeigfeld" (1936 version) today on Turner Classic Movies today. The costumes were beautiful in it. Does anyone know when it will be on again? Is it on video? Penny Penny E. Ladnier, Virginia Commonwealth University s0peladn@erols.com http://www.geocities.com/BourbonStreet/2157 member: Costume Society of America American Fashion Council Association for Information Systems Professionals ------------------------------ ron carnegie [32,28]CSuX:tailor s masterpiece books Subject: Re: Tailor's masterpiece books From: Ron Carnegie Date: Thu, 2 Jan 1997 01:50:52 -0500 At 06:14 PM 1/1/97 -0800, you wrote: >I have never seen the mid 16th-century tailor's masterpiece books >someone referred to, mentioned in any history of _published_ patterns. >That is patterns freely available to anyone, not just passed between a >master and apprentices or among members of a tailor's guild. Were these >books professional publications, freely available, and do they actually >contain usable patterns, or just instructions? The Spanish book does contain "cutting diagrams" for assembling garments, and instructions of that nature. There is a facimile copy with translation in the library at work. I have browsed through it, but not actually read it. I have seen some trade encyclopedias that give some instruction as well. These were not really meant as home sewing guides though. Cheers, Ron Carnegie rcarnegie@widomaker.com ************************************************* "The poetry of history lies in the quasi-miraculous fact that once on this earth, on this familiar spot of ground walked other men and women as actual as we are today, thinking their own thoughts, swayed by their own passions but now all gone, vanishing after another, gone as utterly as we ourselves shall be gone like ghosts at cockcrow." G.M. Trevelyan ************************************************* ------------------------------ dennis bednarek mfg 4-6971 ~bhosvwz#097[34,29]CSuX:costume of the franks Subject: Costume of the Franks From: Kelvin Wilson Date: Thu, 2 Jan 1997 11:34:00 MET Hello everyone- a happy New Year to you all! Can anyone point me in the direction of the better publications that describe the clothes worn by the Merovingians or Franks with special regards to their earliest appearance in history (ie 5th-6th century A.D.)? Amongst the primary sources that do such I know only of Sidonius Apollonaris' description of prince Sigismer (469 A.D.) and of the Frankish men with their thin moustaches and hair combed forward. Once or twice I've come across the point that the Franks liked striped tunics, but never where this info came from.. If I may, I'll extend my question to express my interest in all 'barbarian' costume of the Roman and Early Medieval periods. I too, in the short time I have lurked and contributed to it, have been very impressed with the collective knowledge present on this maillist, so any word from you will be welcomed heartily. Bye and, foremost, thank you, Kelvin Wilson, archaeological illustrator Bijlwerffstraat 13-A 3039 VD Rotterdam The Netherlands e-mail kelvin.wilson@tip.nl ------------------------------ What are supportasses?` ------------------------------ sheryl nance-durst [23,30]CSuX:the great zeigfeld Subject: Re: The Great Zeigfeld From: Sheryl Nance-Durst Date: Thu, 2 Jan 1997 09:22:41 -0600 >I got to see the later half of "The Great Zeigfeld" (1936 version) today on >Turner Classic Movies today. The costumes were beautiful in it. Does anyone >know when it will be on again? Is it on video? Penny, "The Great Ziegfeld" should be currently available on video (at least according to the video catalogs my library orders from). It is listed at $29.98. It is from MGM, #300538. Any video store should be able to order it for you. HTH! Sheryl J. Nance-Durst ...one of the secret masters of Kansas City MO Public Library the world: a librarian. They p_sheryl@kcpl.lib.mo.us control information. Don't ever p**s one off. - Spider Robinson, _The Callahan Touch_ (Opinions expressed in this message do not reflect the viewpoint of the Kansas City MO Public Library.) ------------------------------ allison elizabeth achauer [23,31]CSuX:1980 england sources Subject: 1980 England sources From: Allison Elizabeth Achauer Date: Thu, 2 Jan 1997 10:31:16 -0500 I realize that this is awfully recent history, but I'm looking for images (both still and moving) of clothing in England (specifically London) circa 1980. If anyone has any book suggestions I'd love to hear them, but I am also interested in movies that would be helpful. I am trying to immerse myself in this particular time and place in order to be better able to design the costumes for Cloud Nine by Caryl Churchill (Act One takes place in 1880 colonial Africa, Act Two in 1980 England). The characters range from upper middle to lower middle class, conservative to radical. There is even a four-year-old girl (although that part is played by an adult male). As I live in the US, the libraries around me don't seem have any useful English periodicals. Last night I watched "The Ploughman's Lunch" with Jonathan Pryce and Tim Curry, which was quite helpful. I know there must be a lot of possible movies--something Glenda Jackson has done, perhaps? I would also like to find images of clothing worn by the gay and lesbian subculture of the time. I am sure the collective brain will be able to come up with something! Let me know if I need to be any more specific. Allison Achauer ------------------------------ mrs c s yeldham [63,32]CSuX:various Subject: Various From: Mrs C S Yeldham Date: Thu, 2 Jan 1997 14:58:00 GMT This discussion has arisen several times on this list, and the entrenched opposing positions never develop, but I do want to answer Fran's points. >Mrs C S Yeldham wrote: >> >> Fran Grimble has obviously made useful contributions to our knowledge >about clothes in her areas of interest. > >> I just wonder if future generations would consider that outweighed by the >> damaged to clothes worn, or vice versa? >Caroline, Fran Grimble wrote: >This is what I mean by people confusing the role of individuals with the >role of museums. Museums are in the business of preserving clothes. >Individuals (including me) are not. I profoundly disagree with this attitude, we all have responsibilities towards the future, museums are just one institutional expression of that responsibility, where expertise can be developed and possibly particularly valuable items held for general use. Their existence does not absolve the rest of us from taking care. In the UK we have the National Trust and English Heritage to take care of old houses and their contents. Does that mean owners of private houses, which may be just as valuable to the future, can do what they like with them? Legally, in the UK, the answer is no - if it is a listed building then there are legal requirements upon them , and limits to what they can do. >They're my possessions, and I'm >going to do exactly what I feel with them--just as I do with my other >possessions. Here Fran is confusing legal power with moral duty. Of course she has the legal power to do what she likes with her possessions; but does she owe no moral duty to anyone else? Caroline PS On the recent discussions on films, I have a couple of comments: - there can be only one reason to see 'Robin Hood, Prince of Thieves', and thats Alan Rickman! - on Queen Margot, I was impressed with the costuming standards (and also assumed that the lack of smocks indicated availability - although that was decided by someone who had never worn a boned bodice - not comfortable!). The point that irritated me was the lack of headgear at every opportunity. This to me shows a real social change which is reflected back inappropriately in historical films (and novels, where it is specified). I shall be bold and say it doesn't happen in pre-1940's films. - The UK has recently had a series of 'Moll Flanders' based on the novel, which was well costumed and worth seeing. A couple of reservations, the guns were apparently 1620's style, and the clothes went from Restoration to almost Queen Anne, which is rather a long time for one woman to live! Again, no hats or coifs at every opportunity, although they were good on hats and coifs in public. ------------------------------ hanna [27,33]CSuX:need brocaded material, ca 1450+hennin questions. Subject: Need brocaded material, ca 1450+Hennin questions. From: Hanna Date: Thu, 2 Jan 1997 11:55:01 -0500 Hello there! My namne is Hanna, (Swedish for Hannah), and i recently subscribed to this list. Perhaps someone's asked these question before, I haven't quite got the hang on how to check the archives yet...Sorry! BROCADE I'm in need of (quite heavy) good-looking brocade, preferrably gold (not real though), with a 15:th century pattern. It's for mid 15:th century dresses and houppelandes, (you know, those pleated jackets). Can anyone give me a tip where to buy it? HENNINS Are there any excavated hennins? If so, where can I read about them? I have heard that a metal cap of some sort was worn underneath, is this true? How, in that case, was it constructed? I would also be very thankful for tips on good ways to fasten a hennin,(I've got short hair). Hanna Larsson ------------------------------ mary walter [95,34]CSuX:tailor s masterpiece books Subject: Re: Tailor's masterpiece books From: Mary Walter Date: Thu, 2 Jan 1997 11:53:49 -0700 At 01:50 AM 1/2/97 -0500, Ron Carnegie wrote: >At 06:14 PM 1/1/97 -0800, you wrote: >>I have never seen the mid 16th-century tailor's masterpiece books >>someone referred to, mentioned in any history of _published_ patterns. >>That is patterns freely available to anyone, not just passed between a >>master and apprentices or among members of a tailor's guild. Were these >>books professional publications, freely available, and do they actually >>contain usable patterns, or just instructions? > > > The Spanish book does contain "cutting diagrams" for assembling >garments, and instructions of that nature. There is a facimile copy with >translation in the library at work. I have browsed through it, but not >actually read it. > > I have seen some trade encyclopedias that give some instruction as >well. These were not really meant as home sewing guides though. > >Cheers, >Ron Carnegie >rcarnegie@widomaker.com > ************************************************* > "The poetry of history lies in the quasi-miraculous fact that > once on this earth, on this familiar spot of ground walked > other men and women as actual as we are today, thinking > their own thoughts, swayed by their own passions but now > all gone, vanishing after another, gone as utterly as we > ourselves shall be gone like ghosts at cockcrow." > G.M. Trevelyan > ************************************************* > Ron, The book you may be referencing is J. Alcega's, Tailor's Pattern Book 1589. There is a translation by J. Pain and C. Bainton, intro and notes by Nevinson. It is a facsimile of "Libro de Geometria, pratica y traca". My understanding was that Alcega wasn't attempting to publish a pattern book per se but was showing how to effectively lay out then current patterns to get the best and most economical usage of available cloth. Cloth had become less expensive by Alcega's time but it still represented a huge out lay of resources even for the well-to-do. Many of the affluent still had but two to three changes of wardrobe. However, this book is an effective guide to understanding the tailoring methods of the day...The "french" cut bodice depends upon the correct orientation of the garment on the grain for proper fit. By studying the lay out of the bodice one can understand how to proceed. Alcega's book deals primarily with men's garments but not exclusively. I have also finally caught up from the holidays with all messages on this list. I was very interested in the discussion of both fustian and the construction discussion of the costume from Queen Margot. I suspect the poster who wanted to know or suggested that a corset pattern was covered with cloth may have been right about the rigidity of construction. I don't know however that it would have taken a corset covered with cloth to achieve the non-wrinkle very stiff look. If you reference J. Arnold's, "Patterns of Fashion c 1560-1620", p. 27, placte 182, Arnold shows the tailoring method used in a man's doublet. Layers of linen was used to stiffen the front of the doublet. Those layers are covered in some areas with pad stitching. The pad stitching placed correctly gives the correct shaping (a kind of rounding) to give a smoother line over shoulders and chest. With a bodice, lined similarly, and cut "correctly" in terms of the grain of cloth, you could possibly achieve the very stiff, non-wrinkle effect of the Queen Margot bodice costumes. (My understanding is that pad-stitching is still used today to shape the shoulders and lapels of men's suit jackets). An example of what I'm referring to is most likely seen in the "Phoenix" portrait of Queen Elizabeth I attributed to Nicholas Hilliard, c 1575. In fact the bodice would have probably had to be stiff enough to walk to the closet on its own power, since the sleeve rolls on the dress of that picture would have presented some problems of "staying up" or put. Arnold in her "Queen Elizabeths Wardrobe Unlocked" refers to 18 yards of fustian being ordered for sleeve rolls. Bents of whalebone were also probably also used...but just think of those constructions being attached to a very slim piece of fabric at the shoulder. (Alcega's "french" bodice pattern would suggest how thin a section). And I say that with some trepidation because the portrait and several like it, almost visually would imply those rolls were resting on the upper arm and off the shoulder. (I'm told the "off the shoulder" is an visual illusion). This is a construction, with which I'm still struggling. And yes, cartridge pleating to the stiff bodice (mine, unfortunately don't yet walk to the closet on their own :]) is much easier than onto something with not quiet as much body. I would like to thank all those who responded to my query about rabbato's/supportasses, especially Sally Chandler. Sorry about being absent a month or so from post...I own a retail store and the holidays are pretty impossible, but I didn't mean to neglect my very sincere thank yous. I would appreciate someone posting the name of Phillip Stubbs book again if possible. I think I've missed some posts due to system problems. Mary Walter ------------------------------ frances grimble [32,35]CSuX:tailor s masterpiece books Subject: Re: Tailor's masterpiece books From: Frances Grimble Date: Thu, 2 Jan 1997 09:02:47 -0800 Ron, I have the facsimile of Juan Alcega's 1680 Spanish book; I am referring to the earlier sources quoted. Fran Grimble > > The Spanish book does contain "cutting diagrams" for assembling > garments, and instructions of that nature. There is a facimile copy with > translation in the library at work. I have browsed through it, but not > actually read it. > > I have seen some trade encyclopedias that give some instruction as > well. These were not really meant as home sewing guides though. > > Cheers, > Ron Carnegie > rcarnegie@widomaker.com > ************************************************* > "The poetry of history lies in the quasi-miraculous fact that > once on this earth, on this familiar spot of ground walked > other men and women as actual as we are today, thinking > their own thoughts, swayed by their own passions but now > all gone, vanishing after another, gone as utterly as we > ourselves shall be gone like ghosts at cockcrow." > G.M. Trevelyan > ************************************************* ------------------------------ undetermined origin c/o listserv maintainer[71,36]CSuX:need brocaded material, ca 1450+hennin questions. Subject: Need brocaded material, ca 1450+Hennin questions. From: Northshield Folk Date: Thu, 2 Jan 1997 12:01:52 -0500 HA>Hello there! HA>BROCADE HA>I'm in need of (quite heavy) good-looking brocade, preferrably gold (not HA>real though), with a 15:th century pattern. HA> It's for mid 15:th century dresses and houppelandes, (you know, those HA>pleated jackets). Can anyone give me a tip where to buy it? I find scads of this type of stuff at a fabric warehouse out here in SD its in the middle of nowhere, and the guy gets lots of old 70's upholstery and drapery brocade. The patterns on many of these are period, and if you look you can find fabrics suitable for clothing. You might want to look for a fabric warehouse or an upholstery fabric outlet with lots of stock, or older stock. HA>HENNINS HA>Are there any excavated hennins? If so, where can I read about them? HA>I have heard that a metal cap of some sort was worn underneath, is this HA>true? How, in that case, was it constructed? HA>I would also be very thankful for tips on good ways to fasten a HA>hennin,(I've got short hair). I have not heard of any of the above, a good way to attach a hennin is get small clear hair combs from a beauty supply store, and sew them to the inside of the front edge. Little ribbon loops on the inside the rest of the way around for hooking bobbypins into will help hold down the rest. I hate wearing headgear, but many of my friends were hennins and other stuff, this seems to be about the best way to secure it to your head. Nancy Laughlin-Foust shadewescompany@on-ramp.com Glory,Magesty,Unity Warriors of the Northshield and the Known World ------------------------------ Do you still have the book? If so, please e-mail me privately, I am interested. Denise_Mahaffey@mhsmail.git.gulfaero.com ---------- Cc Jafath@AOL.COM Subject Re: HMSO "Textiles and Clothing" Date Tuesday, December 31, 1996 11:01PM I got two copies of this book for Christmas. (I trained my daughters right about gift selection -- I just should have also trained them to check with each other!) Anyone want to buy a copy for half price? That would be about $10 -- and it's a brand new book. E-mail me at jafath@aol.com if you're interested . . . Jo Anne ------------------------------ frances grimble [55,37]CSuX:various Subject: Re: Various From: Frances Grimble Date: Thu, 2 Jan 1997 10:41:29 -0800 Caroline, > Here Fran is confusing legal power with moral duty. Of course she has the > legal power to do what she likes with her possessions; but does she owe no > moral duty to anyone else? Wait a minute. I'm a law-abiding citizen. I've been monogamously married for 23 years. I don't take drugs and I rarely drink, never to excess. I contribute to certain charities. Occasionally, I even attempt to do a good deed, when I am sure it really is one and not just interference in other peoples' lives. I work hard and always do the best job I can. In fact, my life is a downright boring example of solid middle-class values. Now, I may not subscribe to other moral positions some people strongly believe in. For example, their particular religious or political beliefs. Or their position on wearing vintage clothes. This does not mean I feel I "owe no moral duty to anyone else." Frankly, I feel people who think their beliefs are the only right ones, and should be adopted by everyone else, are bigoted. Wouldn't you feel that way about someone who insisted that the _only_ correct religious belief was theirs? And that you _had_ to subscribe to it to be "saved"; the only alternative being that you were a "sinner"? We live in an extremely complex society, in which practically everyone has a specialized occupation. All or most of these occupations are of value to society. Many--ranging from, say, astronomy, to painting watercolors, to collecting vintage clothes--are also pursued as pastimes by nonprofessionals. However, nonprofessionals are rarely required or expected to conform to professional standards and guidelines. In fact, they usually lack some of the skills, time, money, and other resources required to do so. Museums and museum curators perform a valuable role in society. But that doesn't mean everyone has to become a museum curator in regard to their own homes, furniture, china, clothing, cars, and other possessions. Any more than everyone has to become an astronomer, a doctor, an architect, or a member of thousands of other worthwhile professions. Vintage clothing dealers, auction houses, antique dealers, theatrical costumers, film companies, and amateur collectors are involved with vintage clothes in various ways. Many are making their own contributions to society by doing so, which are as valuable as those of the museum curator. If you want to preserve vintage clothes on a professional level, seek work in a museum by all means. Or do whatever you want with your own collection. But however valuable museums may be, you can't--and shouldn't--turn the whole world into one. Fran Grimble ------------------------------ sheryl nance-durst [41,38]CSuX:1980 england sources Subject: Re: 1980 England sources From: Sheryl Nance-Durst Date: Thu, 2 Jan 1997 13:21:16 -0600 > I realize that this is awfully recent history, but I'm looking for >images (both still and moving) of clothing in England (specifically >London) circa 1980. If anyone has any book suggestions I'd love to hear >them, but I am also interested in movies that would be helpful. You might try _Streetstyle: from sidewalk to catwalk_. It was published to coincide with an exhibition held at the V&A in 1994. If I remember correctly, it features lots of radical 1980's street clothing. You might also look at _In Vogue: 75 years of style_. I don't have the book here so I can't tell you how much is from the 1980's but it is from the London _Vogue_ not the American one so it might be helpful. Also, _Fashions of a Decade: the 1980's_ might help as a general overview. It features more American than British clothes though. >I am >trying to immerse myself in this particular time and place in order to >be better able to design the costumes for Cloud Nine by Caryl Churchill >(Act One takes place in 1880 colonial Africa, Act Two in 1980 England). I saw a production of that play around 1985 - very funny in some places! And very thought-provoking as well. It surprised me how willing I was to see a small girl even when she was played by a large man! And the great white hunter played by a young black man! Good luck on the production. If I can think of any videos I'll post them. Sheryl J. Nance-Durst ...one of the secret masters of Kansas City MO Public Library the world: a librarian. They p_sheryl@kcpl.lib.mo.us control information. Don't ever p**s one off. - Spider Robinson, _The Callahan Touch_ (Opinions expressed in this message do not reflect the viewpoint of the Kansas City MO Public Library.) ------------------------------ gwyn carnegie [41,39]CSuX:tailor s masterpiece books Subject: Re: Tailor's masterpiece books From: Gwyn Carnegie Date: Thu, 2 Jan 1997 11:47:33 -0800 At 09:02 AM 1/2/97 -0800, you wrote: > >I have the facsimile of Juan Alcega's 1680 Spanish book; I am referring >to the earlier sources quoted. > >Fran Grimble > Fran; I'll quote myself below: >The thing to remember when working with these manuscripts is that they were >professional texts and not intended for the layman. They assume a great deal >of knowledge on behalf of the reader and are quite vague in some areas. These texts were not meant for the public. They remained the property of the guild after the submission for master standing by a journeyman. Some were laid out like Alcega with cutting diagrams while others gave only very basic info on sleeve length, hem length, etc. With some of the patterns, a picture of the finished garment is given. These books are still in manuscript form so I'm not surprized that you were unaware of them. The dates range from 1541 to 1724 for the 13 manuscripts accounted for. The only other author I've seen work with these sources is Ingeborg Petrascheck-Hiem and they definately fall into the obscure references catagory. To my knowledge, there are no exact translations of these manuscripts yet published which will account for them being somewhat of a mystery. Alcega was the first to be translated and is very special in contrast to the rest of these manuscripts. The Nidermayr text (1541) shows the patterns as laid out over cloth also but he cites few patterns and some of the pieces are still a mystery;-) Alcega is by far the cleanest of these books. I'm also sure that having Nevinson's name on the cover & credits certainly didn't hurt the books circulation. Cheers Gwyn Carnegie (no relation to R. Carnegie-..... Hi Ron:-) ------------------------------ gia gavino-gattshall [53,40]CSuX:tailor s masterpiece books Subject: Re: Tailor's masterpiece books From: Gia Gavino-Gattshall Date: Thu, 2 Jan 1997 13:07:26 PST > >I have the facsimile of Juan Alcega's 1680 Spanish book; I am referring > >to the earlier sources quoted. > > > >Fran Grimble > > > Fran; > > I'll quote myself below: > >The thing to remember when working with these manuscripts is that they were > >professional texts and not intended for the layman. They assume a great deal > >of knowledge on behalf of the reader and are quite vague in some areas. > > These texts were not meant for the public. They remained the property of the > guild after the submission for master standing by a journeyman. Some were > laid out like Alcega with cutting diagrams while others gave only very basic > info on sleeve length, hem length, etc. With some of the patterns, a picture > of the finished garment is given. These books are still in manuscript form so > I'm not surprized that you were unaware of them. The dates range from 1541 > to 1724 for the 13 manuscripts accounted for. The only other author I've seen > work with these sources is Ingeborg Petrascheck-Hiem and they definately > fall into the obscure references catagory. > > To my knowledge, there are no exact translations of these manuscripts yet > published which will account for them being somewhat of a mystery. > Alcega was the first to be translated and is very special in contrast to the > rest > of these manuscripts. The Nidermayr text (1541) shows the patterns as laid out > over cloth also but he cites few patterns and some of the pieces are still a > mystery;-) > Alcega is by far the cleanest of these books. I'm also sure that having > Nevinson's > name on the cover & credits certainly didn't hurt the books circulation. > > Cheers > Gwyn Carnegie > (no relation to R. Carnegie-..... Hi Ron:-) > Wow! I am very interested in this topic. But before I get too confused, given the flow of the information: Is is safe to think, then, that tailors (or whatever) guilds mastercraftsmen had actual patterns? What materials would these patterns generally consist of? Paper? Parchment? Wood? I have had someone tell me that they did not make patterns (like drawn in the Juan Alcega's book). This person states they only used "paper measures" ( Strips of paper to indicate the measurements of the person being fitted). Thank you! Gia Gavino-Gattshall ggavino@u.washington.edu ------------------------------ gretchen m beck [8,41]CSuX:gromits and button holes and buttons Subject: Gromits and button holes and buttons From: Gretchen M Beck Date: Thu, 2 Jan 1997 16:41:14 -0500 Can anyone tell me when button holse, buttons, and grommits first stared to be used by the majority??? not just the rich or the nobils but what is the history of these as far as regular ppl??? thank you for your time... Sussan ------------------------------ barbara maren winkler [26,42]CSuX:visiting england Subject: Visiting England From: Barbara Maren Winkler Date: Thu, 2 Jan 1997 23:20:15 +0100 Hello, this is a request for help, hopefully not too much off topic. I will be visiting England on Saturday and Sunday, January 11 and 12, 1997. Basically, for me this is a business trip. By Friday evening I will be in Cardiff, Wales, and the business part will be over. I have to leave by plane from London on Sunday (the flight was cheaper this way). Basically, I have no plans or ideas for the time in between yet. Please, are there any interesting costume or textile places "in between" to visit? I would as well go shopping, take part in a costuming event (I have an 1880 costume to wear, though I would only bring it if useful) or just stay the Saturday somewhere quiet for a needlework workshop. I would also like to meet people into crafts or costuming. Please help, if you can recommend anything. Thanks in advance! Regards & Greetings Barbara Maren -- Barbara Maren Winkler barbara@math.tu-berlin.de ------------------------------ frances grimble [32,43]CSuX:morality and costume Subject: Morality and costume From: Frances Grimble Date: Thu, 2 Jan 1997 14:15:10 -0800 I want to say something else while I'm at it. My impression is that people are increasingly expressing a need to justify collecting vintage clothes, and to justify reproducing historic costumes, by claiming a High Moral Purpose. It's Educational. And/or it's Preserving Our Past for Future Generations. The implication is that it's not OK to collect clothes or make costumes just for fun, just because you feel like doing it. Or to do these things at an amateur level. Or even a professional level that does not suit another costumer's High Moral Purpose. (See the recent discussion about film costumes being historically inaccurate.) Someone who does not claim a High Moral Purpose is often assumed to be Morally Irresponsible, Incompetent, or at best Ignorant and in Need of Education. And some (I know, not all) these comments are made by people who do not do what they are pressuring others to do. It's easy for someone who does not collect vintage clothes, to tell collectors to take on the work of a museum curator in private life. It's easy for someone who makes a few garments for himself/herself, to pressure other amateur or professional costumers to make their own costumes in a certain way--without doing any actual work on those costumes. My position is that if you're an amateur collector or costumer, it's OK to pursue your pastime any way you want without adhering to someone else's standards. If you want to costume or collect at a professional level, it's your choice. But don't pressure others to do so under the guise of Superior Morality. Fran Grimble ------------------------------ northshield folk [29,44]CSuX:gromits and button holes and buttons Subject: Gromits and button holes and buttons From: Northshield Folk Date: Thu, 2 Jan 1997 16:53:20 -0500 GR>Can anyone tell me when button holse, buttons, and grommits first GR>stared to be used by the majority??? not just the rich or the nobils but GR>what is the history of these as far as regular ppl??? GR>thank you for your time... GR>Sussan The vikings used buttons ( usually on neck openings). I do not know of any buttonholes in found garments, so they probably made loops of some kind. Metal ring re-enforcements for lacing were sewn into some garments in the 1300's. One example was a back laced gown, if memory serves me there were some similar examples in gambesons. These would have been examples of nobles. The vikings having buttons, it believe that the personal status of the finds were varied, but all were graves with goods in them so they were not slaves etc. Nancy Laughlin-Foust shadewescompany@on-ramp.com Glory,Magesty,Unity Warriors of the Northshield and the Known World ------------------------------ david brewer [33,45]CSuX:eyelets in sleeves Subject: Re: Eyelets in Sleeves From: David Brewer Date: Thu, 2 Jan 1997 20:27:44 GMT In message <32BEB06F@cerberus.shu.ac.uk> S.A.Chandler@SHU.AC.UK writes: > Let's all be friends again and have a very jolly Yuletide! Back from the hols, thus belated answer. > In paintings and portraits of the late 15th century there are often eyelet > holes in the upper sleeves of upper class men's and boys' doublets. These > are a few inches down from the shoulder and usually there are a couple of > pairs of points (ties) attached, but untied. They appear to be too low to > attach false sleeves to. I once thought they had something to do with > armour but that wouldn't work either as I can't locate any on the shoulder > or sleeve head to balance them, and they are also shown on the garments of > very small boys. Does anyone know what these are for? Well, I'm pretty sure they're for armour, to at least a notional degree. I suppose it makes a display of the wearer's armigerous standing. I'm not sure I entirely understand your point against these being for armour. Certainly these garments are not complete arming doublets for wear beneath a harness complete, but the upper classes also wore lighter armours at times other then battle (you reference Italian paintings, but for an English C15 document see Lord Howard's accounts for a man who owned more poncy brigandines and gestraunts than you could shake a stick at). See you around Sal, -- David Brewer ------------------------------ aleed [10,46]CSuX:tailor s masterpiece books Subject: Re: Tailor's masterpiece books From: aleed Date: Thu, 2 Jan 1997 19:29:51 -0500 >These books are still in manuscript form so >I'm not surprized that you were unaware of them. The dates range from1541 >to 1724 for the 13 manuscripts accounted for. Where are these manuscripts located at present? Drea ------------------------------ ron carnegie [45,47]CSuX:tailor s masterpiece books Subject: Re: Tailor's masterpiece books From: Ron Carnegie Date: Thu, 2 Jan 1997 21:34:51 -0500 At 11:53 AM 1/2/97 -0700, you wrote: > >The book you may be referencing is J. Alcega's, Tailor's Pattern Book 1589. >There is a translation by J. Pain and C. Bainton, intro and notes by >Nevinson. It is a facsimile of "Libro de Geometria, pratica y traca". My >understanding was that Alcega wasn't attempting to publish a pattern book >per se but was showing how to effectively lay out then current patterns to >get the best and most economical usage of available cloth. Cloth had become >less expensive by Alcega's time but it still represented a huge out lay of >resources even for the well-to-do. Many of the affluent still had but two >to three changes of wardrobe. However, this book is an effective guide to >understanding the tailoring methods of the day...The "french" cut bodice >depends upon the correct orientation of the garment on the grain for proper >fit. By studying the lay out of the bodice one can understand how to >proceed. Alcega's book deals primarily with men's garments but not exclusively. > The book is Alcega's. That had been mentioned earlier in the thread. Fabric was still very expensive into the 18th century as well, and most "patterns" that I have seen are actually cutting guides, which I why I used that term. In the 18th century you often see tailors advertising that they have studied "a new method for cutting fabric". Cheers, Ron Carnegie rcarnegie@widomaker.com ************************************************* "The poetry of history lies in the quasi-miraculous fact that once on this earth, on this familiar spot of ground walked other men and women as actual as we are today, thinking their own thoughts, swayed by their own passions but now all gone, vanishing after another, gone as utterly as we ourselves shall be gone like ghosts at cockcrow." G.M. Trevelyan ************************************************* ------------------------------ End of H-COSTUME Digest - 1 Jan 1997 to 2 Jan 1997 ************************************************** automatic digest processor [29,48]CSuX:h-costume digest - 2 jan 1997 to 3 jan 1997 Subject: H-COSTUME Digest - 2 Jan 1997 to 3 Jan 1997 From: Automatic digest processor Date: Sat, 4 Jan 1997 00:01:06 -0500 There are 33 messages totalling 1260 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Costume of the Franks 2. Need brocaded material, ca 1450+Hennin questions. 3. Scots-Irish bibliography 4. Jacobean 5. I need pictures of medieval manuscripts+a fresco from Pomposo (2) 6. To Lisa 7. Fashion Plates 1810-1820 (2) 8. To Conserve or Not To Conserve (3) 9. Subscription information? 10. Eyelets and lacing garments (5) 11. Wearing vintage clothes and moraltiy 12. Jacobean black silk ribbons 13. gloves 14. Hennin questions. (2) 15. Fur? 1500's (3) 16. Frankish costume 17. 00 gromets 18. To wear or not to wear vintage clothes 19. paper pattern history 20. french hood experiment 21. 1860's 2-piece sleeve 22. lacing garments and 1500 bodice ---------------------------------------------------------------------- margo anderson [25,49]CSuX:costume of the franks Subject: Re: Costume of the Franks From: Margo Anderson Date: Sat, 2 Nov 1996 22:45:52 -0800 > >Can anyone point me in the direction of the better publications that >describe the clothes worn by the Merovingians or Franks with special >regards to their earliest appearance in history (ie 5th-6th century A.D.)? > > >If I may, I'll extend my question to express my interest in all 'barbarian' >costume of the Roman and Early Medieval periods. Try the "Men-at-Arms" and "Elite" series of books published by Osprey, a British military history specialist. The primary focus is on men's clothing, especially military, but they occasionally touch on womens' clothes as well. They cover all periods from ancient Egypt up to the present, with each volume focusing on a very specific area and time (e.g., Men-at-Arms #154: Arthur and the Anglo-Saxon Wars). They feature excellent paintings of people in costume, and photos of original clothing and equipment, as well as illustrations from primary source material. The level of scholarship is not perfect, but it is quite good. Margo Anderson ------------------------------ margo anderson [31,50]CSuX:need brocaded material, ca 1450+hennin questions. Subject: Re: Need brocaded material, ca 1450+Hennin questions. From: Margo Anderson Date: Sat, 2 Nov 1996 22:58:46 -0800 >HA>HENNINS >HA>Are there any excavated hennins? If so, where can I read about them? >HA>I have heard that a metal cap of some sort was worn underneath, is this >HA>true? How, in that case, was it constructed? >HA>I would also be very thankful for tips on good ways to fasten a >HA>hennin,(I've got short hair). > > I have not heard of any of the above, a good way to attach a hennin is >get >small clear hair combs from a beauty supply store, and sew them to the >inside >of the front edge. Little ribbon loops on the inside the rest of the >way around >for hooking bobbypins into will help hold down the rest. > Yes, but the combs will slide right out of short hair UNLESS: you make small, flat pincurls with two crossed bobbypins, then slide the combs under the curl. This was one of the first costume tips I ever aquired, from my ballet teacher when I was six and my mom had trouble anchoring my recital headpiece to my Pixie cut. I've also had good luck with putting a pair of pantyhose on my head, wrapping and tying the legs around (no, not over the face!) and using them as a base to fasten the hennin with pearl headed corsage pins. Margo Anderson "One Tough Costumer" ------------------------------ maggie pierce [60,51]CSuX:scots-irish bibliography Subject: Re: Scots-Irish bibliography From: Maggie Pierce Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 02:49:50 EST If nobody minds, I'm going to put what I have out for the use (and disputation, of course) of all and sundry. I'm delighted in the interest, and to be (I hope) of some service. I know exactly how hard this area is to research. Mind you, you are going to find some sources rather hard to find. But in any case, I'm working on it right now! Maggie Countess of Southampton **You can take the girl out of the Court, but you can't take the Courtier out of the Girl!** On Wed, 1 Jan 1997 23:12:37 -0900 (AST) salbert@polarnet.com (S.Albert) writes: >Greetings from a new lurker: > >I'm not yet sure yet of the protocol on this list, but I too am very >interesting in early Celtic/Irish garb. I'm not much of a seamstress, >but I >know them. And what we lack in our small SCA group is good resource >materials. > >So I hope you plan to share that bibliography with the whole list, or >if >not, I beg to receive it also when it is prepared. > >Many Thanks > >Sharron >aka Morgana yr Oerfa, Baroness Winter's Gate > > >>I never ever mind answering questions, (whether I have the answers or >not >>) but I am going to try to get a friend to work on this with me, >>since her work in this area is more recent than mine. We'll try to >put >>together a decent biibliography for you as soon as we can dig the >>notebooks out from under the holiday. Thanks so much for you >confidence >>in me. :) >>Maggie Countess of Southampton >>**You can take the girl out of the Court, but you can't take the >Courtier >>out of the Girl!** >> >> >>On Sun, 29 Dec 1996 21:22:55 -0800 Renee Waldmann >>writes: >>>.DO you have a book about Celtic ie Irish Costuming or know of any >or have >>>you written any More articles. There are quite a few of us that are >>>interested in anything about this topic. >>>Yours most humble servent >>>Renee > > > ------------------------------ mrs c s yeldham [113,52]CSuX:jacobean Subject: Jacobean From: Mrs C S Yeldham Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 10:28:00 GMT Karolee wrote: >Hi! I'm fairly new here, so be gentle. Hey, lovely specific questions to answer, no-one's going to be nasty about that! >I have done some research in Jacobean costuming. I'm looking at England >approximately 1600-1625. The majority of my work is through portraiture. >I have primarilly used Roy Strong's "The English Icon" and the various >works of the artsits Hilliad and Oliver. I have noticed in many of pieces >some unusual accessories. I'm hoping someone can explain what some of the >articles are and possibly their societal function. Good places to start. You could also try anything by Janet Arnold, Patterns of Fashion and Queen Elizabeth's Wardrobe Unlock'd are good (but the latter is very expensive) >They seem to be wearing black string. Its probably black silk ribbon, possibly cord (also silk) - there are various techniques to make it. >1- The first location is a black bow at the ear. I have assumed that this >is part of the earring - is the string being run through the ear as the >actual hanging devise for the suspended pearl? Some of these seem to run over the ear, others (Hilliard has some good examples) pierce the earlobe. In both cases the pearl (drop) is suspended from the ribbon. >2- They seem to have two black strings going from the collar down into the >bodice. Are these the ties to the collar? Or are they the edging of the >nearly transparant partlet? As in the Pelican picture of Elizabeth? These loops around the neck and then down into the bodice at the centre of the cleavage are usually thought to be fine necklaces, possibly of jet or black pearls or cords(ribbons) suspending a jewel secreted in the cleavage. Versions of these from the 1570s and 80s are quite ornate around the neck, in several layers with decorate motifs between them. I don't think the partlet is edged in black - they tend to be either completely white or completely black - sometimes edged in fur but thats earlier than your period. I'm a bit confused about the 'collar' you mention - is this the falling band? Not likely to be ties, they tend to be white. >3-They have a black string wound about the wrist (usually 2 to 4 times?) >usually with one strand going down to wrap around one finger. Is this >attached to the ring? A possible sign of fidelity? Rings were quite commonly given as gifts, momenti mori or presents - Shakespear mentions this quite a lot. Some were made to be worn over gloves. In some cases (eg royal messengers) they were meant to be returned after use as identification etc. In any of these cases, the ring is being worn by a person it was not made for, and the ribbon or cord was used to hold the ring onto the finger. Why weren't they altered? Well, if they were given you by an important person this was a really good way of drawing attention to the ring! Also, if you've ever tried it, it does emphasise the length of the fingers and the whiteness of the skin, both desirable qualities. >How much of this is really fashion and how much is portrait symbolism? To a certain extent this is a false dichotomy. The symbolism of the period was common currency amongst all educated people, not reserved for painters, so the symbolism could just as well turn up on clothes and accoutrements used in real life, as in pictures. (I'm not saying the uneducated didn't use symbolism, its just much harder to find out what they were doing and what they thought about it!) Some presentation is obviously painterly, like Hilliard's young man painted in his shirt surrounded by flames, but I don't see any reason to doubt that the shirt itself was a real one. Hilliard's 'Arte of Lymning' does emphasise how much he painted from life. Another example is the picture of Elizabeth with a Sieve (1580s, Gower(?)) - the sieve is a device referring to virginity (it relates to a story about one of the vestal virgins) but the sieve painted is a real sieve, even if Elizabeth never held one! One thing to remember is that minatures were themselves accoutrements, often worn as jewellry as well as stored in cabinets to be shown privily to friends. >Does anyone know the meanings of the symbolism? Its a complicated subject and I don't think anyone knows all of it (and there are different interpretations possible - for example, the pomegranite was Catherine of Aragon's symbol, but I have also been told it means fertility, which may be why she chose it. However, if you see a pomegranite in a particular context it could mean either, or something else!) There is some discussion on symbolism in 'Dynasties', a catalogue of the exhibition last year at the Tate in London. Janet Arnold also has a chapter on this in QE's Wardrobe Unlock'ed and references Claude Paradis' Devises Heroique of 1551 which was translated into English in 1591 as The Heroical Devises of M. Claudio Paradis. Also Geoffrey Whitney's A Choice of Emblems and Other Devises of 1586 - she ties in some jewelry worn by Elizabeth and Anne (James I's wife) to emblems shown in these books. I don't think there is any particular symbolism to black string (or cord or ribbon) except the usual ones related to black, which don't really apply (depends on the rest of the outfit). It was probably just convenient for the uses it was being put to. >I have come to a dead end on these details. I'm in the SCA, but since I am >the only Jacobean costumer out here, I am pretty much stuck. Good Luck! Its an interesting period - much of what is thought of as Elizabethan was actually Jacobean! Hope this helps! Caroline ------------------------------ hanna [24,53]CSuX:i need pictures of medieval manuscripts+a fresco from pomposo Subject: I need pictures of medieval manuscripts+a fresco from Pomposo From: Hanna Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 07:11:54 -0500 Hello there! After reading various books on medieval costuming, there's been a lot of references to manuscripts and other stuff I can't get hold of. I'm in need of pictures from the following manuscript: "The Life Of The Offas" Ms.Cott. Nero D1. Illustrated by Matthew Paris, monk of St Albans. British Museum. Shows the fully developed style of the 13:th century. Does anyone know of good publishings of this manuscrpits, or other illuminated medieval manuscripts? Have you by any chance been to the British Museum, and taken photocopies of the microfilms on medieval manuscripts they've got there, and is willing to make copies of them for me (naturally, I'll pay for them)? I also need a picture of the fresco in Abbey Church of Pomposo "Entry Into Jerusalem", ca 1350. -Hanna Larsson ------------------------------ judy gerjuoy [29,54]CSuX:i need pictures of medieval manuscripts+a fresco from pomposo Subject: Re: I need pictures of medieval manuscripts+a fresco from Pomposo From: Judy Gerjuoy Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 07:51:40 -0500 On Fri, 3 Jan 1997, Hanna wrote: [snip] > Does anyone know of good publishings of this manuscrpits, or other > illuminated medieval manuscripts? Have you by any chance been to the > British Museum, and taken photocopies of the microfilms on medieval > manuscripts they've got there, and is willing to make copies of them for me > (naturally, I'll pay for them)? There are many good fascimiles of medieval manuscriptions available from a number of different sources. Brazilier did a whole bunch had did Phaidon. Scholar's Bookshelf sells them by mail, as does dward R. Hamilton. Most of the current reproductions do the reproductions in color, which is useful. Judy/Jaelle jaelle@access.digex.net If the world were merely seductive, that would be easy. If it were merely challenging, that would be no problem. But I arise in the morning torn between a desire to improve the world, and a desire to enjoy the world. This makes it hard to plan the day. - E. B. White ------------------------------ chandler, sally a. [14,55]CSuX:to lisa Subject: To Lisa From: "Chandler, Sally A." Date: Thu, 2 Jan 1997 13:16:00 GMT I'm really sorry for this but : Lisa, who goes by the name lukelep - the telephone number for the Programme Secretary of the Medieval Dress and Textile Society is 0044 171 837 5665 Sorry I lost your address. Those of you who object to this may reprimand me off list! Sally Ann s.a.chandler@shu.ac.uk ------------------------------ kathleen songal [14,56]CSuX:fashion plates 1810-1820 Subject: Fashion Plates 1810-1820 From: Kathleen Songal Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 10:18:10 -0500 Does anyone know if there is a library, museum, or school that has original fashion plates from 1810-1820 that are available to the public (namely; me) to study and possibly photocopy. Or are they available on microfilm? I already own or have access to nearly all re-published costume plates in costume books...so I'm looking for new material. Off the subject--I'm still trying to locate h-costume archives after the date March 1996. I've even written Suzanne Hader for their location and received no response. Does anyone know? Kathy Songal ------------------------------ r.l. shep [25,57]CSuX:to conserve or not to conserve Subject: To Conserve or Not To Conserve From: "R.L. Shep" Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 08:58:24 -0800 It is not that I think that the debate on whether to conserve our history or to use it up has gone on long enough or not, because I feel it is an important issue. But it is that I feel that people have become strident. It is not a question of =93you MUST=94 do one thing or another= , and it is also not a question of I am going to do what I want and f-you. There are 2 different opinions (at least). Some of it is generational, and most of it is philosophical. I personally feel that the only way anything is going to be conserved in this world (whether it be clothing or forests) is through education. At the same time I don=92t feel that being strident on either side will accomplish anything. It is interesting that the people who seem to be upset about =93the other side=94= preaching are the biggest preachers themselves. = Both sides need to be aired, rationally - and both sides need to be given a little breathing space. this is not a question of =93up against the wall.=94 ~!~ R.L.Shep ------------------------------ hammel_kathy [19,58]CSuX:subscription information? Subject: Subscription information? From: Hammel_Kathy Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 10:36:12 -0800 Hello, How would I subscribe to this list? I've heard good things about it. I've developed quite a hobby of researching early 19th Century women's and children's fashions and the H-Costume list sounds as if it's something that would be great fun for me. In case this note is going to a listserver: subscribe H-Costume Hammel_Kathy2@LACOE.EDU I hope that's right! Thanks, Kathy Hammel ------------------------------ gia gavino-gattshall [49,59]CSuX:to conserve or not to conserve Subject: Re: To Conserve or Not To Conserve From: Gia Gavino-Gattshall Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 09:51:26 PST > It is not that I think that the debate on whether to conserve our > history or to use it up has gone on long enough or not, because I feel > it is an important issue. But it is that I feel that people have become > strident. It is not a question of =93you MUST=94 do one thing or anothe= r, > and it is also not a question of I am going to do what I want and f-you. > > There are 2 different opinions (at least). Some of it is generational, > and most of it is philosophical. I personally feel that the only way > anything is going to be conserved in this world (whether it be clothing > or forests) is through education. At the same time I don=92t feel that > being strident on either side will accomplish anything. It is > interesting that the people who seem to be upset about =93the other side= =94 > preaching are the biggest preachers themselves. > > Both sides need to be aired, rationally - and both sides need to be > given a little breathing space. this is not a question of =93up against > the wall.=94 > > ~!~ R.L.Shep > You are so right about the 'strident' voices. They *are* entitled their individual opinions, and I have the right to use the delete button after I read it. I have found their 'discussions' to be interesting, but it's so hard to not feel defensive when you don't know the person... Personally, I also agree with you about the perpetuating of knowledge of our history is through education. But, if the person doing the educating is not informed on certain points (ie construction techniques) much is lost with out extant or surviving artifacts. I know I may never get to see some of the stuff that has been excavated from archeological digs; and I find that sometimes someone else's interpretation, of what is found, to be lacking in useful information. So, even despite that, it is nice to know that there are artifacts available (even if they are in bad shape). My question is then: should we condemn those before us who used the article of clothing (or whatever) in burials? Gia Gavino-Gattshall ggavino@u.washington.edu (now donning my asbesto suit) ------------------------------ eric praetzel [54,60]CSuX:eyelets and lacing garments Subject: Eyelets and lacing garments From: Eric Praetzel Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 13:17:37 -0500 Here is a question for those more experiened in lace-up garmets. I've made a pair of doublets in the late 16th C English style (interlined with heavy cotton, boned and trimmed to the 9's) but ran into a problem. The first one I made so that it is buttoned up the front but then noticed that the picture of an actual doublet revealed that the darn thing was laced up the back and the buttons on the front were fake. So, how is it possible to make one of these darn things so that you can put it on yourself? I used 1/4" eyelets and cording that is slightly smaller and it is not possible to simply pull on the cord and tighten the whole thing. I put one eyelet every 1", but I've given up lacing it tighter than using every second eyelet. The cording does not slide thru the eyelets very easily. Perhaps that is due to my choice of cording, eyelets or lacing? Strangely enough my one mistake is having made it _not_ tight enough! ie I can inhale fully so it does not actually compress my waist much. The museum example has shoulder rolls and I have not managed to attach those properly yet. They are large stuffed rolls and when I bend them they pull the doublet arm holes (no sleeves) out of shape. One person has mentioned that the rolls should be tied on using eyelets. I like the idea since I could then wear my Italian over-jackets over the doublet but I have never seen any historical evidence for that. I figured that sewing a fabric strip to the bottom of the shoulder roll when it is bent into shape will prevent the stress of holding the roll bent from being transfered to the doublet. Experiences? Ideas? Comments? I have fine metalic trim on the jacket seams as well as on all of the little plates along the bottom and on the shoulder wings. The @##@$#@$ trim took about 1 hour per foot to sew on! I'm now capable of sewing with both hands; but there seems to be no fast way to attach the trim. The heavy brocade inter-lined with a heavy cotton and then lined with linen makes for one heck of a wad of fabric to try and sew. I've resorted to sewing the linen lining by hand simply because I can't put all of the fabric thru my sewing machine! I used a "ridegeline" sort of boning down the front. It was a bit less than 1/2" wide and not very stiff by my guestimate. Is there stiffer or wider boning available in other places? Still, if it was stiffer it would really stick out thru the interlined fabric. The basic doublet design is a 6 panel body and the 6 seams seem to do a fair bit of stiffening themselves. - Eric --NAA19961.852315381/ece.uwaterloo.ca-- ------------------------------ frances grimble [18,61]CSuX:wearing vintage clothes and moraltiy Subject: Wearing vintage clothes and moraltiy From: Frances Grimble Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 10:13:29 -0800 Robb, What I object to is people assuming there is only one side to a question and that they have the _only_ right view. I object to the term "education" because this says "I obviously have the right view on the subject, and if you disagree with me you are ignorant and in need of education." That's an arrogant and narrow-minded attitude. I have thought this issue out long and hard over a period of many years; therefore I do not need to be 'educated.' I just disagree. I'm not preaching that people should do exactly as I do, which is the kind of preaching I object to. What I would like to see is an open-mindedness to other people's opinions and actions. Frab ------------------------------ marsha hamilton [25,62]CSuX:jacobean black silk ribbons Subject: Jacobean black silk ribbons From: Marsha Hamilton Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 14:47:17 -0400 >I have noticed in many of pieces some unusual accessories. >They seem to be wearing black string. > >1- The first location is a black bow at the ear. >2- They seem to have two black strings going from the collar down into the >bodice. > >3-They have a black string wound about the wrist (usually 2 to 4 times?) >usually with one strand going down to wrap around one finger. Is this >attached to the ring? A possible sign of fidelity? I don't know where I came by this opinion but I always understood the Jacobean black silk cords were used to secure jewelry. Pins and earrings didn't have safety clasps. There are printed references to Eliz. I and others losing jewels off clothing. I've seen portraits with pearl or jem earrings secured to the ear or hair with silk cord and rings tied to the finger or the wrist with silk cord (since rings were traded and might not fit the wearer). I can't remember seeing cords on pins/brooches but those could be sewn to clothing. Marsha ------------------------------ reflections of the past, antiques [25,63]CSuX:fashion plates 1810-1820 Subject: Re: Fashion Plates 1810-1820 From: "Reflections of the Past, Antiques" Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 13:43:14 -0500 Kathy Songal wrote: >Does anyone know if there is a library, museum, or school that has original >fashion plates from 1810-1820 that are available to the public (namely; me) >to study and possibly photocopy. Or are they available on microfilm? I >already own or have access to nearly all re-published costume plates in >costume books...so I'm looking for new material. ................ There are some images to look at online if that helps. 1. Reflections of the Past - http://www.victoriana.com/antiques 2. Regency Publications Featuring Fashion Plates - http://locutus.ucr.edu/~cathy/reg4.html ***************************************************** Joanne Haug "Victoriana-Resources for Victorian Living" http://www.victoriana.com and "Reflections of the Past, Antique Costume & Textiles" http://www.victoriana.com/antiques registry@victoriana.com Voice/Fax(216)835-6924 ***************************************************** ------------------------------ marsha hamilton [29,64]CSuX:gloves Subject: Re: gloves From: Marsha Hamilton Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 14:53:37 -0400 The Thomas Register (of manufacturers) lists glove manufacturers but not by any numbering system. The U.S. Patents and Trademarks for both design patents and trademarks list "RN" numbers (registration numbers) but number 27219 in both cases are for non-glove related items from the 1890's. It could be an internal company code, a company design number or any number of other options. Any other librarians out there want to take a stab at this one? Marsha At 4:02 PM 12/31/96, Northshield Folk wrote: > I found two pairs of gloves at Goodwill the other day. > > I am trying to estimate how old they are. > > One pair is brown leather with a "belt" around the wrist, and a long >large gauntlet. > I am guessing maybe the 60's from the style. the tag has no name but > it says made in Japan and the RN27219, I don't know how to reference RN > >numbers to find out the manufacturer. The tag is obviously one printed >in the >50's-60's from the style of it. > >Anyone got a guess? ------------------------------ nancee beattie [21,65]CSuX:hennin questions. Subject: Re: Hennin questions. From: Nancee Beattie Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 13:04:41 -0600 At 10:58 PM 11/2/96 -0800, you wrote: >>HA>HENNINS >>HA>Are there any excavated hennins? If so, where can I read about them? >>HA>I have heard that a metal cap of some sort was worn underneath, is this >>HA>true? How, in that case, was it constructed? >>HA>I would also be very thankful for tips on good ways to fasten a >>HA>hennin,(I've got short hair). What goes under a hennin is a mystery. The metal cap you mention is more likely a wire headband (with a wire loop in front) that goes around the head at the hairline. I have seen ladies in 15th-century manuscripts wearing these headbands. Some say that these headbands are the foundation to which a hennin is attached (leaving only the little forehead loop showing). Others say that they are a separate fashion, and that the little loop visible on a hennin is an integral part of its structure. Which is true? I wish I could tell you. Maybe both are true. With long hair twisted tightly in a bun on the top of the head, a hennin will stay in place without pins of any kind (provided it fits). Because I have enough hair to twist into a bun, I can easily remove my hennins and put them back on at any time (which comes in handy whenever people approach me automatic digest processor [19,66]CSuX:h-costume digest - 2 jan 1997 to 3 jan 1997 Subject: H-COSTUME Digest - 2 Jan 1997 to 3 Jan 1997 From: Automatic digest processor Date: Sat, 4 Jan 1997 00:01:06 -0500 to find out how it's made). I figure that most 15th-century women had enough hair to bun up (it doesn't take much--my hair is very fine, and about shoulder-blade length). If your hair is short, the little wire headband (two rows of wire about 3/4" apart, with a little loop, front and center) might not be a bad idea. The headband would stay on snugly, and the hennin could be attached to the headband. The headband could also hold back bangs to give a more period appearance. I have also recommended those stretch-comb headbands to hold back shorter hair. A comb sewn into the hat, then anchored in crossed bobby pins attached to the hair is also a great idea. Hennins are generally lighter than they look--even if they're wired for structure. If anyone knows of any books showing extant hennins, let me know. Nancee ------------------------------ syrilla@aol.com[18,67]CSuX:fur? 1500 s Subject: Fur? 1500's From: SyRilla@AOL.COM Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 14:16:52 -0500 I have come with another question that is stumping me. I was told that fur was used widely on noble womens clothing in England in the 1500's. I can only find a few sorces that say anything about fur. I know the turned back sleeves in the early 1500's bore some, but where else? I can find only once picture, from a questionable book, that shows fur around the edges of a high necked tudor gown. I would like to know of other sources, esp. with photo's for the fur. And the type most commonly used in England at this time. I was given a beautiful peice of faux mink, would that be acceptable on the turned back sleeve? Thank you a hundred time over. Kimberly SyRilla@aol.com ------------------------------ susan carroll-clark [30,68]CSuX:frankish costume Subject: Re: Frankish costume From: Susan Carroll-Clark Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 14:26:51 -0500 Greetings! First, a general note: As the various migrating Germanic tribes came into contact with the Romans and then eventually settled in once-Roman territories, they gradually adapted late Roman dress--essentially, tunics for the men, usually worn with the characteristic Frankish (but not Roman) trews/pants; longer tunics for the women (although they may have also worn shorter ones; more on that in a moment. What kept them "different" was their jewellery--the Franks, Goths, Saxons, etc, were quite good metalworkers (witness the Sutton Hoo find). Anyway, as I'm sure you've discovered, most costume books don't really cover this period. You may want to look at Byzantine clothing for ideas of basic cut. Beyond that, the SCA has a pamphlet (#59) in its Complete Anachronist series that will help to some extent--it's entitled (from memory) something like "Northen European Women's Dress", and one of the examples is the Frankish archaeological find of "Queen Arnegunde". Carolyn Priest-Dorman (Thora Sharptooth in the SCA) is an excellent costume historian, and this work exhibits very high standards. The other book I will recommend has the very cheezy title of _Everyday Life of the Barbarians_, by Malcolm Todd (New York: Dorset Press, 1972). The author is/was a professor of archeology at Exeter University, and the book includes a number of drawings of grave finds (including "Arnegunde", incidentally) Good luck! Susan Carroll-Clark sclark@chass.utoronto.ca ------------------------------ computer programmer [37,69]CSuX:eyelets and lacing garments Subject: Re: Eyelets and lacing garments From: Computer Programmer Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 12:34:12 MST Eric Praetzel [25,70]CSuX:00 gromets Subject: 00 gromets From: "=?iso-8859-1?Q?=22Chantal_M._P=E9court=22?=" Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 15:05:08 -0500 Hello This past summer I found a supplier for double 0 grommets. Up until then the only place I had been able to find them were from hard ware store catalogs that wanted nearly 100.00 for a special kit that one could color the grommets. Not needing that nor wanting to spend that much money, I used 0 sized grommets for all my bodices. This size worked but they were slightly big. If anyone wants 00 gromets, the address is M. Steffan's Sons INC. 761 Main st, Buffalo, NY 14203 I have not mail-ordered from them as I still have enough grommets to last a while. But the woman said they did mail order.For the 00 grommets you will need the 00 setting tool as the 0 tool is to big ( of course). Hope this is helpful to some. Chantal ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- " The truth is out there" -X Files " Be sure you want to know what lies behind the doors of truth before you open them.." -me " Ask only the questions for which you are ready to hear the answers." -me ------------------------------ aleed [12,71]CSuX:to wear or not to wear vintage clothes Subject: To wear or not to wear vintage clothes From: aleed Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 14:57:45 -0500 This vintage clothes-wearing debate is beginning to sound like historical costume's equivalent of the abortion issue: Either you're for it or you aren't, and everyone finds everyone else's adamant viewpoint equally offensive. when people start questioning eachother's moral rectitude on a costume mailing list, Sounds to me like it's time for a new thread. Drea ------------------------------ carrie a fellows [39,72]CSuX:to conserve or not to conserve Subject: Re: To Conserve or Not To Conserve From: Carrie A Fellows Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 15:52:46 -0500 On Fri, 3 Jan 1997, R.L. Shep wrote: > It is not that I think that the debate on whether to conserve our > history or to use it up has gone on long enough or not, because I feel > it is an important issue. But it is that I feel that people have become > strident...At the same time I don=92t feel that > being strident on either side will accomplish anything. =20 >=20 > Both sides need to be aired, rationally - and both sides need to be > given a little breathing space. this is not a question of =93up against > the wall.=94 >=20 > ~!~ R.L.Shep Ok, I'm coming out of lurker mode to give this a shot. Discussion of=20 opposing opinions is good, but I echo R.L.Shep's comments on discretion. = =20 If posters have such strong views on to wear or not to wear, to preserve=20 or not to preserve, etc., perhaps they should consider continuing their=20 argument privately rather than on the list. It is clear that the=20 antagonists are not going to change one another's minds on this issue. =20 Can we all be friends now? =20 If you've resolved this already, please disregard my butting in. I've=20 just returned from the holidays and am catching up, rather stunned at the= =20 hostility I'm finding in this usually very genial group. I don't mean to= =20 sound patronising, I just want everyone to calm down, be rational, and=20 respect one another's opinions. =20 Thanks for a great list! Carrie A. Fellows Student (for 4 more weeks) Costume Society of America=20 ------------------------------ cynthia virtue [14,73]CSuX:hennin questions. Subject: Re: Hennin questions. From: Cynthia Virtue Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 13:17:32 -0800 On Fri, 3 Jan 1997, Nancee Beattie wrote: > Hennins are generally lighter than they look--even if they're wired for > structure. If anyone knows of any books showing extant hennins, let me know. Indeed! Let us all know, if anyone has leads to same. I haven't heard of any extant henins turning up. There might also be references somewhere in texts, but I don't have the inclination at this time to sit reading miles of microfilm of household accounts or early diary writers. Mayhap next year.... Cynthia ------------------------------ ron carnegie [65,74]CSuX:eyelets and lacing garments Subject: Re: Eyelets and lacing garments From: Ron Carnegie Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 16:39:34 -0500 At 01:17 PM 1/3/97 -0500, you wrote: >Here is a question for those more experiened in lace-up garmets. > >I've made a pair of doublets in the late 16th C English style (interlined >with heavy cotton, boned and trimmed to the 9's) but ran into a problem. >The first one I made so that it is buttoned up the front but then noticed >that the picture of an actual doublet revealed that the darn thing was >laced up the back and the buttons on the front were fake. > >So, how is it possible to make one of these darn things so that you can >put it on yourself? > Simple, open it down the front! You mention that you saw a portrait that laced up the back, but there are several extant doublets that are front opening. >The museum example has shoulder rolls and I have not managed to attach >those properly yet. They are large stuffed rolls and when I bend them >they pull the doublet arm holes (no sleeves) out of shape. One person >has mentioned that the rolls should be tied on using eyelets. I like >the idea since I could then wear my Italian over-jackets over the doublet >but I have never seen any historical evidence for that. I figured that >sewing a fabric strip to the bottom of the shoulder roll when it is bent >into shape will prevent the stress of holding the roll bent from being >transfered to the doublet. > You could make the roll to the proper shape originally, than you do not need to bend it. I >I have fine metalic trim on the jacket seams as well as on all of the little >plates along the bottom and on the shoulder wings. The @##@$#@$ trim took >about 1 hour per foot to sew on! I'm now capable of sewing with both hands; >but there seems to be no fast way to attach the trim. > I don't recall ever seeing a doublet that had both rolls and "wings". Maybe I am wrong. >I used a "ridegeline" sort of boning down the front. It was a bit less than >1/2" wide and not very stiff by my guestimate. Is there stiffer or wider >boning available in other places? Still, if it was stiffer it would really >stick out thru the interlined fabric. The basic doublet design is a 6 panel >body and the 6 seams seem to do a fair bit of stiffening themselves. > Sounds like you are describing poly boning. It is not very sturdy, and will eventually conform to your shape. I would reccommend steel boning or oak split if you know how to do that. Steel boning is available through Greenberg and Hammer. Cheers, Ron Carnegie rcarnegie@widomaker.com ************************************************* "The poetry of history lies in the quasi-miraculous fact that once on this earth, on this familiar spot of ground walked other men and women as actual as we are today, thinking their own thoughts, swayed by their own passions but now all gone, vanishing after another, gone as utterly as we ourselves shall be gone like ghosts at cockcrow." G.M. Trevelyan ************************************************* ------------------------------ heather leigh harrison [41,75]CSuX:paper pattern history Subject: paper pattern history From: Heather Leigh Harrison Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 17:15:30 -0500 There is a fascinating project underway which will catalog commercial paper patterns and make them available to people other than the lucky dogs who currently own them!! :) Kevin Seligman (No. Illinois University) and Joy Emery (Univ. of RI) - as well as others- are spearheading this effort and have come up with standard information which is being gleaned from existing commercial paper patterns and entered into the Commercial Pattern Archives. They have established methods for dating, preserving and assigning archival numbers for the patterns so that they can be accessed by others. Once complete, it wil be possible to call up a specific style garment, era, size, age range or brand of pattern and find out who may have any original patterns that fit what you're looking for. The parties who own the patterns are encouraged to scan the pattern into a master copy so that it can be transferred (via computer) to anyone having a printer large enough to handle blueprint size copies. Even without having this equipment (since I know few of us have one lying around) there's incredible information which can be gained just from the information in the archives. I know of a number of universities around the nation which are participating in this program so the resources are actively growing. Betty Williams (of The Studio costume shop in NYC) had an enormous collection of patterns which she bequeathed to the project. It was her passion (among others) and she was always very generous in sharing her patterns and the historical clues which could be found in them. Her insight is greatly missed since her death this past summer, but her treasure trove is being preserved so that others can continue to use this valuable resource. Anyone interested in knowing more about this project or to get the information on listing patterns which you may own, can contact: Kevin Seligman (336 River Dr. DeKalb, IL 60115 815-753-1334 office) or Joy Emery (84 Estelle Dr. W. Kingston, RI 02892 401-792-5921 office JEmery@URIACC.URI.EDU) No, I don't have any vested interest in the project other than being introduced to it at the Univ. of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign and listing all of their patterns up to 1970. It was a wonderful project to be involved in, and I plan to continue participating, whenever I find original paper patterns. Enjoy! Heather ------------------------------ strangegirl [42,76]CSuX:eyelets and lacing garments Subject: Re: Eyelets and lacing garments From: StrangeGirl Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 15:36:53 -0800 Ron Carnegie quoted somebody not named and wrote: > >I used a "ridegeline" sort of boning down the front. It was a bit less than > >1/2" wide and not very stiff by my guestimate. Is there stiffer or wider > >boning available in other places? Still, if it was stiffer it would really > >stick out thru the interlined fabric. The basic doublet design is a 6 panel > >body and the 6 seams seem to do a fair bit of stiffening themselves. > > > Sounds like you are describing poly boning. It is not very sturdy, and will > eventually conform to your shape. I would reccommend steel boning or oak > split if you know how to do that. Steel boning is available through > Greenberg and Hammer. Just one thing, well two...Hello, been on this list for a bit now and had to respond to the above. (I am a corsetmaker and costumer of some small experience, so I might get preachy, feel free to email back and tell me so if I do ;>) Rigilene (tm) is a particular brand of poly boning made in England. It is a six-filament boning that has many of the virtues of whalebone (can be sewn into costume, more flexible than steel, can be steam moulded to the desired shape, *kinks can be ironed out!*) I use it on many things (including millenery!). It looks like a grosgrain ribbon with the ribs running lengthwise. It is *vastly* superior to American poly bonoing, and priced accordingly. I would reccommend that this gentleman do the following: 1) use a heavier interlining to support his stiffener (whatever he uses) 2)if he continues to use Rigilene, he should 'completely bone' the lining where support is needed for the correct shape, as ladies stomachers were boned in formal dress in the rennaisance through the end of the 18th C. (lecture mode off) Hello everybody! Maureen -- ------------------------------ aleed [31,77]CSuX:fur? 1500 s Subject: Re: Fur? 1500's From: aleed Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 18:05:11 -0500 On reading through an article on the wardrobe of Mary Tudor (Elizabeth I's sister) I found a great number of furs mentioned. THis would be mid-16th century. sable fur and black rabbit fur were used (I'm still not sure what animal sable came from) as well as lynx fur, leopard fur, ermine, and miniver (squirrel). Squirrel fur was actually quite popular. On Fri, 3 Jan 1997 SyRilla@aol.com wrote: > I have come with another question that is stumping me. > > I was told that fur was used widely on noble womens clothing in England in > the 1500's. I can only find a few sorces that say anything about fur. I > know the turned back sleeves in the early 1500's bore some, but where else? > I can find only once picture, from a questionable book, that shows fur > around the edges of a high necked tudor gown. I would like to know of other > sources, esp. with photo's for the fur. And the type most commonly used in > England at this time. > I was given a beautiful peice of faux mink, would that be acceptable on the > turned back sleeve? > Thank you a hundred time over. > Kimberly > > SyRilla@aol.com > ------------------------------ aleed [19,78]CSuX:french hood experiment Subject: french hood experiment From: aleed Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 18:17:59 -0500 I've been wanting to make a french hood for a while, now, so I searched through the H-costume archives, took bits from various postings, and dived in. Here's a synopsis of my effort, to help to any future archive searchers: I cut the shape out of plastic needlepoint canvas, put a piece of stiff buckram on either side of it, and whipstitched all three layers together. Then I stitched milliner's wire around the edge of the shape, and bent it until it fit. It's pretty solid. THe thing I'm having problems with is the veil--I tried a semi-circular and a rectangular veil, and with both veils (it's a rather stiff fabric) I get little pointy corners sticking out on either side of my head. How do I get that smooth drape? Drea ------------------------------ sandra l. waldrop [23,79]CSuX:1860 s 2-piece sleeve Subject: 1860's 2-piece sleeve From: "Sandra L. Waldrop" Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 17:36:10 -0600 There has been quite enough "to mothball or to wear" discussion. This has been covered at least once before, with no satisfaction that I could see. Let's talk clothes. I had the honor to visit the Valentine Museum this spring and fell in love with a dress, which I plan on reproducing. The dress was blue silk and had the very common 2 piece coat sleeve. I have Period Impressions Day Bodice pattern #405 (I know, but I think I can work with it) but the sleeve is too full. I have a limited amount of shot silk to make the dress with. Any suggestions as to a pattern that has the 2 piece sleeve? Should I just drag out the cheap muslin and start cutting? And since the material is russet brown and black, can I line it with black? Would that mean black undersleeves? Any ideas? I would like to trim it with black velvet ribbons, is that available in the right weight? So many questions... Sandy Waldrop swaldrop@prairienet.org ------------------------------ sara j. davitt [24,80]CSuX:lacing garments and 1500 bodice Subject: lacing garments and 1500 bodice From: "Sara J. Davitt" Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 18:53:18 -0600 Hello, I just found a bookmark of a painting that I picked up at the V+A museum where the lady was "sewing" herself into the dress down the front. Early Rennaisance, I think... You can see the thread, and the needls at the end ot it, as it has fallen down her skirt... the thread is not *THAT* long, so I would think that perhaps they only laced until the bodice piece ended. Does anyoine know the name of this painting?.. the bookmark people didn't note it. ANd those who have been here a while--remember the discussion about the 'bodacious bathhouse babe' and whether they were corseted or not? I have found alot more illustrations with several lines down the front of the bodice.... and these are more clear examples that deciphering the white on white dress of the bathhouse girls. Does anyone think that they were rows of darts?, or boned? or?.. whatelse could they be?.. because they are definatly there. though it only seems like the front of it was treated.. not the full bodice like a corset-- Things keep getting curiouser and curiouser, Sarahj ------------------------------ margo anderson [69,81]CSuX:eyelets and lacing garments Subject: Re: Eyelets and lacing garments From: Margo Anderson Date: Sun, 3 Nov 1996 17:09:47 -0800 At 01:17 PM 1/3/97 -0500, you wrote: > > >I've made a pair of doublets in the late 16th C English style (interlined >with heavy cotton, boned and trimmed to the 9's) but ran into a problem. >The first one I made so that it is buttoned up the front but then noticed >that the picture of an actual doublet revealed that the darn thing was >laced up the back and the buttons on the front were fake. > Where did you find this picture? I can't recall ever seeing a back-laced doublet in a primary source. It's my understanding that back lacing is a theatrical convention, probably popularized because lacing makes it easier to fit the thing to different bodies, and because (at least after the invention of metal grommets) it's faster and cheaper than making buttonholes. >I used 1/4" eyelets and cording that is slightly smaller and it is not >possible to simply pull on the cord and tighten the whole thing. It rarely is. Most laced garments require a series of tugs. I put >one eyelet every 1", but I've given up lacing it tighter than using every >second eyelet. The cording does not slide thru the eyelets very easily. >Perhaps that is due to my choice of cording, eyelets or lacing? A very slick lace such as poly satin ribbon slides the best, but doesn't stay tied very well, nor does it look period. > >Strangely enough my one mistake is having made it _not_ tight enough! >ie I can inhale fully so it does not actually compress my waist much. It's not supposed to compress your waist, cetainlly not to the point of impairing your breathing. Unless you are trying for one of those doublets with a built-in corset? > >The museum example has shoulder rolls and I have not managed to attach >those properly yet. They are large stuffed rolls and when I bend them >they pull the doublet arm holes (no sleeves) out of shape. One person >has mentioned that the rolls should be tied on using eyelets. I like >the idea since I could then wear my Italian over-jackets over the doublet >but I have never seen any historical evidence for that. I figured that >sewing a fabric strip to the bottom of the shoulder roll when it is bent >into shape will prevent the stress of holding the roll bent from being >transfered to the doublet. Did you make your rolls as long "sausages" and then try to bend them to fit the armholes? Try cutting them as cresent shapes, 2 per roll, with the inside curve matching your shoulder curve (a flexible curve is useful here). > > > >I used a "ridegeline" sort of boning down the front. It was a bit less than >1/2" wide and not very stiff by my guestimate. Is there stiffer or wider >boning available in other places? I firmly believe that rigeline is the antichrist. If you hate it now, wait till you've worn it for eight hours and the damn stuff buckles and thermoforms itself into a series of lumps. Iwould use flexible steel boning if you want it very stiff: if you want approximately the rigidity of Rigeline but better quality, steel spiral boning would work. Both of these come in 1/4" and 1/2" widths. Margo Anderson "One Tough Costumer" > ------------------------------ julie adams [48,82]CSuX:fur? 1500 s Subject: Re: Fur? 1500's From: Julie Adams Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 20:49:07 -0700 >I have come with another question that is stumping me. > >I was told that fur was used widely on noble womens clothing in England in >the 1500's. I can only find a few sorces that say anything about fur. I >know the turned back sleeves in the early 1500's bore some, but where else? > I can find only once picture, from a questionable book, that shows fur >around the edges of a high necked tudor gown. I would like to know of other >sources, esp. with photo's for the fur. And the type most commonly used in >England at this time. >Kimberly > >SyRilla@aol.com Holbein by Phaidon Press: - Unknown Lady with a Squirrel and a Starling about 1528, (now in Houghton Hall, Norfolk), the lady wears a fur gable shaped cap - Christina of Denmark, 1538 - furlined robe/loose gown - Many pictures of men with fur lapels The Visual History of Costume by Ribiero and Cumming: - Bust of Henry the VII shows fur on lapels - J Wyddowsoun, 1513 brass rubbing of woman shows fur on turned back cuffs and at hem - An Unknown English Lady, drawing by Hans Holbein shows a lady with wide fur hanging cuffs on the oversleeves - Lady Jane Grey 1545, Master John (attr.) shows large fur cuffs on the oversleeves Also in the Holy Roman Empire, (Germany, Netherlands, Austria, Poland, Czechoslavakia, etc.) there are many many examples of fur in the early 16th century. Mostly the fur is used to line coats, gowns, robes, gollars, and skirts. Lapels of coats and sometimes coat cuffs show the fur. There are some fur hem decorations on ladies in the Triumph of Maximillian, but these seem to be uncommon, mostly it seems to be used for linings and coat lapels. Fur linings are shown in costumes for the poorest peasant to the fanciest noble. These can be found primarily in The German Rennaissance Woodcut series, but also a few are shown in Lucas Cranach, by Friedlander and the Durer woodcuts and etchings books by Albrecht Durer. I have also seen various German ladies with fur muffs and various fur hats in the later period. Julie Adams ------------------------------ End of H-COSTUME Digest - 2 Jan 1997 to 3 Jan 1997 ************************************************** automatic digest processor [17,83]CSuX:h-costume digest - 3 jan 1997 to 4 jan 1997 Subject: H-COSTUME Digest - 3 Jan 1997 to 4 Jan 1997 From: Automatic digest processor Date: Sun, 5 Jan 1997 00:00:03 -0500 There are 13 messages totalling 469 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Eyelets and lacing garments (2) 2. Bathhouse Babes (was: lacing garments and 1500 bodice) (2) 3. Fur? 1500's (2) 4. Basic information on conservation 5. to conserve or not 6. Overheard early one morning 7. Tailor's Masterpiece Books 8. 1796-1812 Men's Clothing 9. Bibliography for Old Irish and Scottish Costume 10. byzantine/persian fabric designs? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ron carnegie [35,84]CSuX:eyelets and lacing garments Subject: Re: Eyelets and lacing garments From: Ron Carnegie Date: Sat, 4 Jan 1997 00:02:46 -0500 At 03:36 PM 1/3/97 -0800, you wrote: > >Just one thing, well two...Hello, been on this list for a bit now and >had to respond to the above. (I am a corsetmaker and costumer of some >small experience, so I might get preachy, feel free to email back and >tell me so if I do ;>) > >Rigilene (tm) is a particular brand of poly boning made in England. It >is a six-filament boning that has many of the virtues of whalebone (can >be sewn into costume, more flexible than steel, can be steam moulded to >the desired shape, *kinks can be ironed out!*) I use it on many things >(including millenery!). It looks like a grosgrain ribbon with the ribs >running lengthwise. It is *vastly* superior to American poly bonoing, >and priced accordingly. > We use some whalebone for boning at work, and it is far more rigid than rigilene (as are oak splits also used in the construction of stays in the 18th century). Cheers, Ron Carnegie rcarnegie@widomaker.com ************************************************* "The poetry of history lies in the quasi-miraculous fact that once on this earth, on this familiar spot of ground walked other men and women as actual as we are today, thinking their own thoughts, swayed by their own passions but now all gone, vanishing after another, gone as utterly as we ourselves shall be gone like ghosts at cockcrow." G.M. Trevelyan ************************************************* ------------------------------ maggie pierce [17,85]CSuX:eyelets and lacing garments Subject: Re: Eyelets and lacing garments From: Maggie Pierce Date: Sat, 4 Jan 1997 02:15:25 -0500 In a message dated 97-01-03 18:07:15 EST, you write: << >So, how is it possible to make one of these darn things so that you can >put it on yourself? > I've long been of the opinion that being able to dress yourself is a "false goal". If the idea is to look as they looked, you have to do what they did. Happily, the only Elizabethan doublets I can think of that even *might* lace down the back are the peascod-belly style, where practical buttons at the bottom curve might be impossible. In which case, I agree with whoever recommended that you find a partner to get dressed with. That's what the ladies' have to do in almost every case anyway :) Maggie Countess of Southampton ------------------------------ julie adams [61,86]CSuX:bathhouse babes (was: lacing garments and 1500 bodice) Subject: Bathhouse Babes (was: lacing garments and 1500 bodice) From: Julie Adams Date: Sat, 4 Jan 1997 00:11:12 -0700 >ANd those who have been here a while--remember the discussion about the >'bodacious bathhouse babe' and whether they were corseted or not? >I have found alot more illustrations with several lines down the front of >the bodice.... and these are more clear examples that deciphering the >white on white dress of the bathhouse girls. > >Does anyone think that they were rows of darts?, or boned? or?.. whatelse >could they be?.. because they are definatly there. though it only seems >like the front of it was treated.. not the full bodice like a corset-- > >Things keep getting curiouser and curiouser, >Sarahj I found several strapless examples like the one shown this web page I set up: http://www.idyllmtn.com/savaskan/bathhouse_babes.html It shows a color closeup of a picture from the Wenceslas Bible, from Bohemia, 1390-1400 of two bathhouse women washing a man's hair. The Wenceslas Bible is thought to be medieval erotica. The picture shows the pleats/lines going around the side too. I think it is interesting that the bust waist fit is a lot like an 1860s corset. Has anyone besides me ever tried on a corset with a top cut similar to what is shown here before the boning is put in? The bust makes it flip right over. For those of you without a web viewer, the top is cut like: CB ______ _________CF_________ _______CB \ / \ / ------ ------- armscye armscye Can't see the back, just the front and sides. No closures are visible. The aeriole and nipples of the bust are covered, but just barely. The garment is not fitted tightly underneath the bust, but actually has the "dropped in" look of an 1860's corset, with the similar pinched waist. The interesting thing to me is that the back turn of the armscye falls right over the shoulder blades, exactly like the ideal Victorian corset. While most of the bathhouse shifts I've seen have had straps over the shoulders, I think I have seen 3 or 4 strapless examples...from this Bible. Definitely curiouser... Is this pleated or boned strapless shift a fanciful or a real foundation garment? The spagetti strap shifts shown in the bible are also documentable in later periods for bathhouse wear, and more importantly as undergarments, but I haven't seen other examples of this strapless version. Certainly shifts and other "undies" are considered erotic in the Renaissance and Victorian times. My gut feeling is that a linen strapless shift boned or stiffened or pleated at the waist might work as a foundation garment to achieve the intensely pinched waist sillouette of this period. Basically if I were judging a contest and someone entered a Bohemian gown in this period with this kind of undershift, and it achieved the sillouette that I think it would, I would probably nod my head and say "very cool". I am very interested if you found more outside of the Wenceslas Bible! Julie Adams ------------------------------ don and carolyn richardson [18,87]CSuX:fur? 1500 s Subject: Re: Fur? 1500's From: don and carolyn richardson Date: Sat, 4 Jan 1997 00:24:25 -0800 aleed wrote: > sable fur and black rabbit fur were used (I'm still not sure what animal > sable came from) as well as lynx fur, leopard fur, ermine, and miniver > (squirrel). Squirrel fur was actually quite popular. I could be wrong but I think sable comes from sable. If I remember correctly, that's a mink-like animal that lives primarily in Russia, but was probably more widespread in period. Squirrel was quite popular, as you say, but the "squirrel" you see illustrated in medieval manuscripts (and for which there is a heraldic term that I can't remember) is extinct and has been for centuries due to its popularity as a lining for clothes. Carolyn ------------------------------ sara j. davitt [21,88]CSuX:bathhouse babes (was: lacing garments and 1500 bodice) Subject: Re: Bathhouse Babes (was: lacing garments and 1500 bodice) From: "Sara J. Davitt" Date: Sat, 4 Jan 1997 09:12:41 -0600 Hello, when I get scanner access in 10 days or so, I will scan the other pictures of the 'stiffened' front, as well as the La Vie Des Enfants Du la Moyen age (Life of kids in the middle ages).. because I know dome of the pictures are in that book as well.. (my appologies to those who wanted those picts) I keep thinking that this pattern is "pleated".. because you look at the fullness of the skirt, and if it were boned (unless each bone was shaped) you wouldn't get the smoothness of the line, since the lines mostly stop at the lower abdomen. and when boning ends there it can get pretty uncomfortable. This pattern could have evolved from an adaptation of the Houpelande... taking the gathers, and sewing them together to make a fitted garment? Does that seem to make sense to anyone? Take Care, Sarahj ------------------------------ ella lynoure rajamaki [19,89]CSuX:fur? 1500 s Subject: Re: Fur? 1500's From: Ella Lynoure Rajamaki Date: Sat, 4 Jan 1997 17:21:00 +2 On 4 Jan 97 at 0:24, carolyn richardson wrote: > Squirrel was quite popular, as you say, but the "squirrel" > you see illustrated in medieval manuscripts (and for which > there is a heraldic term that I can't remember) is > extinct and has been for centuries due to its popularity as > a lining for clothes. Completely extinct ? What was that squirrel then and how did it differ from the modern ones ? > Carolyn Lynoure *thinks Finns used squirrel fur as currency in medieval times* ------------------------------ jeff gottfred [18,90]CSuX:basic information on conservation Subject: Basic information on conservation From: Jeff Gottfred Date: Sat, 4 Jan 1997 09:57:11 -0700 IF YOU DO WISH TO conserve a garment, what are the most important things to do or avoid doing? I don't have anything old garments, and probably never will, but I do living history demonstrations in the summer wearing historic costume. I'm wondering what to say if someone remarks "My grandmother had a dress just like that, and I've still got it and don't know what to do with it." I would hate to say "Well, I haven't got a clue--call the museum", especially since I have access to you folks. (Besides, nobody is likely to phone the museum--after their holidays are over they will have forgotten all about it.) So, if you could only get across TWO BRIEF POINTS about costume conservation to an interested member of the public, what would they be? --Angela Gottfred gottfred@agt.net-->soon to be gottfred@telusplanet.net ------------------------------ kathy wells [82,91]CSuX:to conserve or not Subject: Re: to conserve or not From: Kathy Wells Date: Sat, 4 Jan 1997 12:13:48 -0500 This topic is of special interest to me. I can see both sides of the discussion. I agree that private people are not REQUIRED morally or ethically to keep their collections in the same way that museums keep a collection. However, many "museums" especially small ones have not kept their collection of textiles very well. Funding for museum quality boxes and tissue have not or are not available. So why should we expect private people to do what museums can not afford to do? I work for such a museum. They do a living history program with the employees in costume. They do this program, but are now forced to use documentation from outside of the geographic area which we use as a focus area (rural SW Pennsylvania in the early 19th Century). On the other side of the issue is the fact that I know there are garments from my family's attic (dare I say collection) which were made and worn during the the focus time and area. However, we, as private individuals never bothered to catalog the collection. We have worn them for special events or whatever. I know that I wore out a handwoven linen shift in high school, because I wore it constantly at home. It ended up in the rag bag. I also know that there are many more like it...but I don't wear them, I do wear my own reproductions. I do not wear originals anymore, mostly due to the fact that my activities tend to be hard on clothes. Living history in a rural setting in just hard on clothes. I have some reproductions that look as bad as the originals that were in the attic. I can certainly understand why many more "special" garments have survived as opposed to the clothes that people wore on a regular basis. Just take a look at some of the blue jeans you see on the street today, these are the clothes of today's common person. Does that mean we should label all of the clothes in our closet so that future generations know "who""what""when" of each garment. I think NOT. This idea is ridiculous, in the extreme. My supervisor at work can't/won't accept the costumes >from the family attic due to the fact that they are not "documented" by museum standards. I have NO idea of how to document these "old clothes" I am thinking of doing a private collection data base, as a favor to those who come after me. I have limited resources time and money. My work hours were just cut in half. I do have access to a personal computer.(obviously:)) I am thinking of at least getting this project started in "ACCESS" so that I can attach pictures of the actual garments. I know that I will soon run out of space in my computer if I attach that many pictures as gif's or jpeg's. Any ideas or comments about how to start or where I might find funding for such a project would be most helpful. You can respond off list to: Kath The costumes are from rural Southwestern PA and date mostly from the 19th Century. I have recently started working in a museum setting, my experience comes more >from life (amateur hobby) than education or work( professional work). I do not feel that I am a professional expert and get the idea that my supervisor would rather take the word of such an expert, than from me with amateur knowledge. Can someone explain the difference in the knowledge or information? Thank you, for your interest. Please excuse the "raving". I have a difficult time with a professional attitude that looks down on people who have not had the opportunity to study without earning a living at the same time. Kathy Wells KATH http://www.cobweb.net/~ryn ------------------------------ christine robb [20,92]CSuX:overheard early one morning Subject: Overheard early one morning From: Christine Robb Date: Sat, 4 Jan 1997 13:20:06 -0500 Yesterday, to be precise, and the radio station is closed for calling and asking them. CBC (Toronto) reviewed an exhibition (I'm presuming an exhibition, since they don't do book reviews at that time) of the V&A costume exhibit from the 14th C to the present, or sometime near the present. They talked about hoop skirts, and said that it was closing soon. The museums in Toronto don't seem to be displaying anything like it, so I was hoping maybe somebody on this list has heard of this and could tell me something more about it. Wish I had my radio on a little louder, sigh. Christine bk492@freenet.toronto.on.ca ------------------------------ frances grimble [20,93]CSuX:tailor s masterpiece books Subject: Tailor's Masterpiece Books From: Frances Grimble Date: Sat, 4 Jan 1997 13:18:58 -0800 Regarding the "mysterious" tailor's masterpiece books: see No. 3 of _Costume_, the 1969 issue of the British Costume Society journal, for the article "Tailor's Masterpiece Books." Also see the bibliography for the Ruth Bean reprint of de Alcega's _Tailor's Pattern Book_. Also, see Irena Turnau's _European Occupational Dress_ and her _History of Dress in Central and Eastern Europe from the Sixteenth to the Eighteenth Century_. These are Polish books translated into English. Turnau shows pictures of patterns from a 1581 and a 17th-century tailor's guild pattern book, and she tells where these are in the state archives. I just got Turnau's books in the mail yesterday, from Fred Struthers. He probably has more copies because these are not used books. Fran Grimble ------------------------------ r.l. shep [14,94]CSuX:1796-1812 men s clothing Subject: 1796-1812 Men's Clothing From: "R.L. Shep" Date: Sat, 4 Jan 1997 15:42:55 -0800 Does anyone know of a source, or sources, on the net of illustrations for either English or American men's clothing during the period 1796 to about 1812? I am also specifically looking for American Military Uniforms from what is called the 1809 issue. In other words uniforms that come from that date or shortly thereafter. Thanks in advance for your help. ~!~ R.L. Shep ------------------------------ maggie pierce [60,95]CSuX:bibliography for old irish and scottish costume Subject: Bibliography for Old Irish and Scottish Costume From: Maggie Pierce Date: Sat, 4 Jan 1997 20:21:37 -0500 Since a number of people have asked for this, it seemed most sensible to just post it generally. It's not TOO long. This list is taken in part from the Clan MacColin Costume Guide, 1988-90, compiled under the guidance of Steven Gillan. Since Steven remains my mentor in these matters, I ll see if he would be interested in snail mail correspondence with anyone wanting to pick his very active brain. Have fun! Bingham, Madeleine, "Scotland Under Mary Stuart An Account of Everyday Life", [no date available, about 1950 I think] Browne, James, "The History of Scotland, Its Highlands, Regiments, and Clans", 1845. Burt, Edward, "Letters from a Gentleman in the North of Scotland", Edinburgh, 1754. Chambers, Granuoile, "The Life and Times fo Grace O Malley ", 1979 Derrick, John, "Image of Ireland", London 1585 (available as a facsimile reprint, no date available). Dunlevy, Mairead, "Dress in Ireland", B.T. Batsford Ltd., London 1989. Falls, Cyril, "Elizabeth s Irish Wars", 1950 Logan, James, "Manners, Customs, and Antiquities of Scotland". MacKenzie, Agnes Mure, "The Scotland of Queen Mary and the Religious Wars 1513-1638", Oliver & Boyd Ltd., Edinburgh, 1936, rpt. 1957. MacKinnon, C.R., "Scottish Tartans and Highland Dress", Glasgow, 1960. Maxwell, Stuart and R. Hutchinson, "Scottish Costume", 1958. McClintock, H.F., "Old Irish and Highland Dress", 1943. [this is a recognized reference but does contain some errors] -------------------- "Handbook on the Traditional Old Irish Dress", Dundalgan Press Ltd., Dundalk, 1958. Moryson, Fynes "Shakespeare s Europe, More Unpublished Chapters of Fynes Moryson s Itinerarys" [primary source for late 1590-1620] Telfer Dunbar, J., "The Costume of Scotland", B.T. Batsford Ltd., London 1976. -------------------- "History of Highland Dress", Oliver & Boyd, Edinburgh, 1962. Walker, George, "Historical Essay on the Dress of Ancient and Modern Irish", London 1787. Walker, J.C., "Historical memoirs of the Irish Bards", 1789 (includes the complete Irish sumptuary laws of Henry VIII) ------------------------------ sara j. davitt [35,96]CSuX:byzantine/persian fabric designs? Subject: byzantine/persian fabric designs? From: "Sara J. Davitt" Date: Sat, 4 Jan 1997 21:39:57 -0600 Hello! AS I'm flipping through my costume books, a couple questions came to mind. What happened to the patterns of the Persian Fabrics? Were they printed? or Embroidered?.. or? Were they just an artistic creation to supplement alligiance- or hold some symbolic meaning?.. if so what? I know that the Greeks and Romans had written a code about not wearing dyed fabrics in public... could it be that this patterning was considered barbarian/peasant-like-and hence not very civilized? Would this be the reasons why the technology was lost? Do any of these garments exist?-- the earliest I have seen is the Greco Roman/ byzantine fragments... Was the Byzantine Embroidered?, or beaded? and am I correct in the assumption that the 'jewelwork was attacheded to a leather or heavier fabric, THEN sewn onto the garments-- so that they could be removed and moved to another garment when the first one wore out? And Has anyone very found any primary sources for fabric painting in antiquity, or the middle ages?.. if so I assume the pigments were the same, availablity by locale, but what binders did they use to hold the paint to the fabric?.. has anyone tried it?.. what is its permanance-factor? Any ideas as to the triple-dot patterns seen on red figure vases?.. three berries crushed to leave a stain, perhaps?.. or was it a sign of a foreigner? Many thanks to anyone who has ideas! Sarahj ------------------------------ End of H-COSTUME Digest - 3 Jan 1997 to 4 Jan 1997 ************************************************** automatic digest processor [16,97]CSuX:h-costume digest - 4 jan 1997 to 5 jan 1997 Subject: H-COSTUME Digest - 4 Jan 1997 to 5 Jan 1997 From: Automatic digest processor Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 00:00:34 -0500 There are 14 messages totalling 502 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Fur? 1500's (2) 2. byzantine/persian fabric designs? (3) 3. ancient nepal (2) 4. Military Uniforms 5. bodice-dress 6. Max Tilke's books (was: Mongolian Costume) 7. H-COSTUME Digest - 2 Jan 1997 to 3 Jan 1997 (2) 8. Fur shoes and glass slippers 9. "Art of Dress" and 1810-1820 fashion plates ---------------------------------------------------------------------- don and carolyn richardson [38,98]CSuX:fur? 1500 s Subject: Re: Fur? 1500's From: don and carolyn richardson Date: Sat, 4 Jan 1997 22:39:17 -0800 I wrote: > > Squirrel was quite popular, as you say, but the "squirrel" > > you see illustrated in medieval manuscripts (and for which > > there is a heraldic term that I can't remember) is > > extinct and has been for centuries due to its popularity as > > a lining for clothes. > Lynoure asked: > Completely extinct ? What was that squirrel then and how did it > differ from the modern ones ? > Lynoure > And Jaella/Judy wrote: > Vair. There you have it, straight from a knowledgeable source. I thought it might be vair but couldn't remember. According to "The Art of Heraldry", my only heraldry book I can find at the moment: "The other variety of fur is "vair." This originated from the fur of a kind of squirrel (the ver or vair, differently spelt; Latin, varus), which was much used for the lining of cloaks. The animal was bluey-grey upon the back and white underneath, and the whole skin was used. It will be readily seen that by sewing a number of these skins together a result is obtained of a series of cup-shaped figues, alternating bluey-grey and white..." And yes, I understand that the vair was completely extinct by the beginning of the 14th Century, maybe earlier. And all due to a fashion of cloak linings that apparently swept Europe during the High Middle Ages. The other fur used in heraldry, BTW, is ermine, which was also popular for linings (it's that white fur with the black spots you see in so many royal portraits). Carolyn ------------------------------ joan m jurancich [63,99]CSuX:byzantine/persian fabric designs? Subject: Re: byzantine/persian fabric designs? From: Joan M Jurancich Date: Sat, 4 Jan 1997 23:20:06 -0800 At 09:39 PM 1/4/97 -0600, "Sara J. Davitt" wrote: >Hello! > >AS I'm flipping through my costume books, a couple questions came to mind. > >What happened to the patterns of the Persian Fabrics? Were they >printed? or Embroidered?.. or? They were primarily woven patterns; though some decorative pieces were embroidered. Anything that has repetitive (identical) patterning is highly likely to be woven. [snip] Would this be the reasons why the technology was lost? Weaving patterned fabrics is alive and well. The basic techniques were devised millenia ago and have never been entirely lost; many are very labor- and skill-intensive and are not done often today since they are not easy (or, in some cases, possible) to do on machinery. The human hand is STILL the most versatile tool we have. >Do any of these garments exist?-- the earliest I have seen is the Greco >Roman/ byzantine fragments... > >Was the Byzantine Embroidered?, or beaded? and am I correct in the >assumption that the 'jewelwork was attacheded to a leather or heavier >fabric, THEN sewn onto the garments-- so that they could be removed and >moved to another garment when the first one wore out? Could have been either embroidery or beading; they were often combined. I'm not certain about the use of leather or separate fabric for backing "jewelwork". (I'm afraid Byzantine is not my period of direct interest; I'll defer to more expert advice.) >And Has anyone very found any primary sources for fabric painting in >antiquity, or the middle ages?.. if so I assume the pigments were the >same, availablity by locale, but what binders did they use to hold the >paint to the fabric?.. has anyone tried it?.. what is its permanance-factor? In the book "Prehistoric Textiles", by E. J. W. Barber [Princeton Univ. Press, 1991. ISBN 0-691-03597-0], the author describes the fragments of a cloth used as a sarcophagus cover. The original cloth was very large, of 11 strips sewn together, and painted with "frieze after frieze of figures from Greek mythology" (p. 206, 2nd column). The tomb in which it was found is dated to the early 4th century B.C.E. >Any ideas as to the triple-dot patterns seen on red figure vases?.. I'm not certain what "red figure vases" you mean. Please give a bit more information about place and time period. Dot patterns are easy to weave using warp-float, weft-float, or supplemental weft techniques. [snip] Hope this helps a bit, Joan Jurancich Sacramento, California joanj@quiknet.com ================================== ------------------------------ sharon l. harrett [27,100]CSuX:fur? 1500 s Subject: Re: Fur? 1500's From: "Sharon L. Harrett" Date: Sun, 5 Jan 1997 03:47:25 -0500 On Sat, 4 Jan 1997, don and carolyn richardson wrote: > aleed wrote: > > > sable fur and black rabbit fur were used (I'm still not sure what animal > > sable came from) as well as lynx fur, leopard fur, ermine, and miniver > > (squirrel). Squirrel fur was actually quite popular. > > I could be wrong but I think sable comes from sable. If I remember > correctly, that's a mink-like animal that lives primarily in Russia, but > was probably more widespread in period. Squirrel was quite popular, as > you say, but the "squirrel" you see illustrated in medieval manuscripts > (and for which there is a heraldic term that I can't remember) is > extinct and has been for centuries due to its popularity as a lining for > clothes. > > Carolyn > Hi All: Just in case anyone really wants to know, the heraldic term for squirrel fur is "vair", usually depicted as blue and white, roughly bell shapes interlocked top to bottom. Ceridwen o Cahercommaun ------------------------------ sara j. davitt [22,101]CSuX:byzantine/persian fabric designs? Subject: Re: byzantine/persian fabric designs? From: "Sara J. Davitt" Date: Sun, 5 Jan 1997 09:51:29 -0600 > > >Any ideas as to the triple-dot patterns seen on red figure vases?.. > I'm not certain what "red figure vases" you mean. Please give a bit more > information about place and time period. Dot patterns are easy to weave > using warp-float, weft-float, or supplemental weft techniques. First, Thanks Joan.. that will be very helpful. I will clarify... When looking at all the pictures of greek vases, the only patterned fabics that I ever see, are 3 dots clusters, scattered throughought the fabric.. there rarely appears to be alot of order to the pattern... but then this is red-figure painting, and well.. when making dots... the exactness gets lost.. kinda like beginner pointilism, where the dots form rows, instead of shapes... I drew a repoduction for each figure on a vase at the Milwaukee Art Center, and if anyone is interested, I will scan that in too, when I get the batch of pictures together. Thanks again! Sarahj ------------------------------ gaelscot@aol.com[12,102]CSuX:ancient nepal Subject: ancient nepal From: Gaelscot@AOL.COM Date: Sun, 5 Jan 1997 12:43:07 -0500 I just saw the film "Little Buddha," and wondered if the costumes (they were spectacular, as were the sets) in the part about Buddha's life had any basis in reality, or if they were purely fantastic. Either way they were great, but as I know nothing about Nepalese costume at any era in history, I can't tell how "real" they are. Of course, I realize that we are talking about something 4000 years ago or so. Isn't an interest in historic costume inconvenient at times? You just want to know... Gail Finke ------------------------------ maggie pierce [20,103]CSuX:ancient nepal Subject: Re: ancient nepal From: Maggie Pierce Date: Sun, 5 Jan 1997 14:48:36 -0500 In a message dated 97-01-05 12:48:13 EST, you write: << I just saw the film "Little Buddha," and wondered if the costumes (they were spectacular, as were the sets) in the part about Buddha's life had any basis in reality, or if they were purely fantastic. Either way they were great, but as I know nothing about Nepalese costume at any era in history, I can't tell how "real" they are. Of course, I realize that we are talking about something 4000 years ago or so. Isn't an interest in historic costume inconvenient at times? You just want to know... >> Of course, as we all know, Nepal/Tibet is the All-Time Costume Contest winner in the category of Silly Hats. :) And they're still wearing them! MaggieRose ------------------------------ elizabeth pruyn [41,104]CSuX:military uniforms Subject: Military Uniforms From: Elizabeth Pruyn Date: Sun, 5 Jan 1997 13:31:00 -0800 Hi there, I saw your post: Does anyone know of a source, or sources, on the net of illustrations for either English or American men's clothing during the period 1796 to about 1812? I am also specifically looking for American Military Uniforms from what is called the 1809 issue. In other words uniforms that come from that date or shortly thereafter. Here is one source that might have links for Regency wear that was on the List: >Does anyone know if there is a library, museum, or school that has original >fashion plates from 1810-1820 that are available to the public (namely; me) >to study and possibly photocopy. Or are they available on microfilm? I >already own or have access to nearly all re-published costume plates in >costume books...so I'm looking for new material. ................ There are some images to look at online if that helps. 1. Reflections of the Past - http://www.victoriana.com/antiques 2. Regency Publications Featuring Fashion Plates - http://locutus.ucr.edu/~cathy/reg4.html Also, awhile ago, I was surfing and found a site on the New York Library's web page that had uniforms from this time period. (They had the whole book.) I didn't keep the URL unfortunately, but easily got it with a web search. Yours, Elizabeth Elizabeth Pruyn iteach@slip.net Oakland, CA "If I had been around when Rubens was painting, I would have been revered as a fabulous model. Kate Moss? Well, she would have been the paint brush..." - Dawn French ------------------------------ morigianna@aol.com[11,105]CSuX:bodice-dress Subject: bodice-dress From: Morigianna@AOL.COM Date: Sun, 5 Jan 1997 18:47:26 -0500 a while back I requested help finding documentation for a dress that was basically a front lace bodice with skirt attached worn over a linia sometime out of wool. I have seen it numerous times in the SCA and someone was going to send me paperwork but I haven't seen it and have lost the name.There is a running battle if this is period (somewhere.sometime) or a SCA Myth costume. Like barbarian women in g-strings and pasties with swords! (UGGGGK). Thanks Morigianna ------------------------------ julie adams [75,106]CSuX:byzantine/persian fabric designs? Subject: Re: byzantine/persian fabric designs? From: Julie Adams Date: Sun, 5 Jan 1997 16:06:44 -0700 >What happened to the patterns of the Persian Fabrics? Were they >printed? or Embroidered?.. or? Its not too clear as to the period you are speaking of, but Medieval and Renaissance Turkish and Persian fabrics I have seen are either embroidered directly on the fabric, embroidered on a separate fabric, then the embroidery peice is appliqued on, applique'd design, or woven (though the earlier you get, the less likely woven fabrics are used.) There are some fairly early examples of eccleseastical garments that also fall into the above categories. I have several photos of these garments from various Museums and Cathedral exhibits which I took in Germany, Austria, and Czechoslavakia. It was very common to do an elaborate embroidered motif on a separate cloth and then applique it to a base fabric. Many of the pieces I saw showing patterns similar to those found in paintings were actually embroidered, not woven. Especially when there was more than two colors on the fabric (this is for 16th c and earlier...) There was a shirt painted (actually mostly calligraphed) with prayers in the Sulieman the Magnificent Ottoman Turk exhibit that was supposedly meant as a healing gown. These details are shown in wonderful photos of actual garments in "Splendors of the Ottoman Sultans" by Dr. Nurhan Atasoy, Istanbul University, Wonders, the Memphis International Cultural Series, a division of the City of Memphis, Tennessee, 1992 I think the ISBN is: 745'.09561'07476819--dc 20 >Was the Byzantine Embroidered?, or beaded? and am I correct in the >assumption that the 'jewelwork was attacheded to a leather or heavier >fabric, THEN sewn onto the garments-- so that they could be removed and >moved to another garment when the first one wore out? I think it was embroidered and jeweled motifs mounted on either leather or a heavy fabric. I have no period examples or documentation for leather, but that sounds like it would make sense. >And Has anyone very found any primary sources for fabric painting in >antiquity, or the middle ages?.. if so I assume the pigments were the >same, availablity by locale, but what binders did they use to hold the >paint to the fabric?.. has anyone tried it?.. what is its permanance-factor? I believe that painting was used for a lot of garments and decorations that were meant to be temporary, thus suggesting impermanence. In one of the books about Tournaments, there were quotes from primary sources about painting and stenciling decorations for tournaments (barding and such). In "Women's costume of the Near and Middle East" by Jennifer Scarce published by Unwin Hyman Ltd, of London and Sydney, 1987, she does not discuss printing on the costumes until she mentions block printing in the early 18th century and the influence of fabrics from India. It incidently coincides with the use of printed fabrics in Europe as well. She does discuss the transition from Byzantine clothing to Turkish clothing, but implies that the designs were either woven or embroidered. >Any ideas as to the triple-dot patterns seen on red figure vases?.. three >berries crushed to leave a stain, perhaps?.. or was it a sign of a foreigner? This is a popular motif for 15th and 16th century Turkish cloth, sometimes it is also shown as three crescents facing inward. This triple ball motif is called cintemani (the c has a squiggle at the bottom making the prononciation "chintemani") and is often combined with squiggle line pairs or chinese clouds. There is no information as to the significance of this design. In the examples I have, it was either woven, embroidered, or appliqued. Many of the existing pre-17th c. Ottoman garments in the Topkapi exhibit had applique'd silk satin on silk satin, often with embroidered outlines. >From my ceramics background, red berries would not give a red ceramic color if that is what you are asking. Julie Adams ------------------------------ julie adams [21,107]CSuX:max tilke s books (was: mongolian costume) Subject: Max Tilke's books (was: Mongolian Costume) From: Julie Adams Date: Sun, 5 Jan 1997 16:23:03 -0700 I know someone asked awhile ago about the Tilke book. Max Tilke wrote several books on ethnic costume. I have Costume Patterns and Designs, by Magna Books, 1990 which does have some Mongolian Costumes in it and various other ethnic costume, as well as some layouts for Rennaissance and Medieval costumes. The interest for me was Plate 66, #9, showing some Turkish women's taffeta trousers which he labels as dating from 1570 to 1600, which are extremely long and baggy, but tie up at the calf, letting the baggy part hang down about the ankles. In other documentation sources I have though, I haven't any examples of this style occurring until about 1720. In the 16th century, I only have seen women wearing the type of trousers which are baggy at the top and have pencil legs at the bottom, in similar fashion to the 16th c. men's trousers. Has anyone seen any different? Julie Adams ------------------------------ karen j farris [19,108]CSuX:h-costume digest - 2 jan 1997 to 3 jan 1997 Subject: Re: H-COSTUME Digest - 2 Jan 1997 to 3 Jan 1997 From: Karen J Farris Date: Sun, 5 Jan 1997 19:50:02 EST Hennins--as far as I have been able to decipher, the way to wear a hennin is this. The hair is pinned up on the head as flat as possible, and a small cap (sort of a "beanie") is pinned securely--be liberal with the pins--over the hair. The hennin should have the same circumferance at the opening as the cap because the hennin is then forced over the cap. All the hennin takes then to hold it in place is one hat pin, or largish straight pin, through the hennin catching the cap beneath. If the small circular face veil is worn, it should go between the cap and hennin. We have done this several times and always had great success. The velvet-covered wire loop should be attatched to the hennin as this acts as a counterbalance. The hennin should slant back off the head at a 55-65 degree angle. I hope this helps. Ms. Alysea of Ashley MKA Karen Farris ------------------------------ sarah randles [21,109]CSuX:fur shoes and glass slippers Subject: Fur shoes and glass slippers From: Sarah Randles Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 13:00:18 +1000 Carolyn wrote: Squirrel was quite popular, as >you say, but the "squirrel" you see illustrated in medieval manuscripts >(and for which there is a heraldic term that I can't remember) The heraldic term for squirrel fur is vair. There is a theory that Cinderella's slippers were originally made out of squirrel fur, but were confused with the French term 'verre', meaning glass, which is a homonym. Sarah ****************************************************************************** Sarah Randles email: s-randles@adfa.oz.au English Department phone: 06 268 8898 University College ADFA fax: 06 268 8899 Canberra ACT 2601 AUSTRALIA ------------------------------ sheridan alder & david webb [53,110]CSuX:"art of dress" and 1810-1820 fashion plates Subject: "Art of Dress" and 1810-1820 fashion plates From: Sheridan Alder & David Webb Date: Sun, 5 Jan 1997 22:41:01 -0500 Hello everyone: Please excuse me if someone else has already mentioned this publication, but I came across the following in the World's Biggest Bookstore in Toronto last week: Ashelford, Jane. Art of Dress: Clothes and Society, 1500-1914. London, National Trust, 1996. 320 pp. As a Regency costume fan, I was thrilled to find COLOUR photographs of garments from Nancy Bradfield's "Costume in Detail", including the 1795-1800 gown on p. 81-82, and the 1806-09 gown on p. 93-95. I salivated over a photograph of the most adorable c. 1820 caped pelisse (even though it's "too late" for me.) It was $65.00 Canadian, which means it will be a snip in U.S. funds, and it seemed an excellent price for a hard-cover book. The only reason I didn't buy it on the spot was that it covered such a broad time span - I'm trying to concentrate on the Regency period, with occasion forays into WWI (and sometimes I think it would be fun to have a 1860's dress to go with my 1860's house...STOP this NOW!) Someone was asking about fashion plates c. 1810-1820 on microfilm. If you're located in California or Idaho, this won't be of much help, but the University of Toronto has "The Ladies Monthly Museum" and "La Belle Assemblee" on microfilm. The Royal Ontario Museum Library just down the street also has a bound copy of fashion plates from "Ackermann's Repository" (unfortunately this doesn't include the text - but it's still wonderful). I would try to use telnet to get into your local university, college and large museum library catalogs. You can use gopher to get the telnet address. I also wonder if you couldn't purchase microfilm of these publications from the British Library. I don't have the e-mail address here, but if you ran a search you could probably track it down. Unfortunately, while our interests overlap (I'm interested in 1800-1814) there's nothing worse than a photocopy of a photocopy, or I'd offer to copy what I have for after 1810! Happy costuming everyone! Sheridan Alder ------------------------------------------------------------ Name : Sheridan Alder & David Webb Company : Sheridan Alder & David Webb Address : 145 Dalhousie Avenue City : St. Catharines, ON, Canada, L2N 4X6 Home Number: (905) 935-2729 ------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------ nancee beattie [24,111]CSuX:h-costume digest - 2 jan 1997 to 3 jan 1997 Subject: Re: H-COSTUME Digest - 2 Jan 1997 to 3 Jan 1997 From: Nancee Beattie Date: Sun, 5 Jan 1997 21:52:17 -0600 At 07:50 PM 1/5/97 EST, you wrote: >Hennins--as far as I have been able to decipher, the way to wear a hennin >is this. >The hair is pinned up on the head as flat as possible, and a small cap >(sort of a "beanie") is pinned securely--be liberal with the pins-- snip This seems like a lot of work and hardware. My hennins stay on without any pins at all. I put my hair in a bun on the top of my head, then put the hennin on top of it and it stays--no hat pin, no bobby pins, no comb. I can remove it and replace it repeatedly throughout the day without a problem. When people ask me how I keep my hennin in place, I answer quite simply, "It fits." Nancee (known in the SCA as Meistres Meredydd if anyone cares) ------------------------------ End of H-COSTUME Digest - 4 Jan 1997 to 5 Jan 1997 ************************************************** automatic digest processor [22,112]CSuX:h-costume digest - 5 jan 1997 to 6 jan 1997 Subject: H-COSTUME Digest - 5 Jan 1997 to 6 Jan 1997 From: Automatic digest processor Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 00:00:55 -0500 There are 19 messages totalling 581 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. bodice-dress 2. Max Tilke's books 3. BASIC INFO ON CONSERVATION (2) 4. Whalebone (2) 5. Henins 6. MEDATS 7. Pattern Reviewers 8. Recent mention of whalebone 9. Antique satin??? (2) 10. costuming job opening 11. 1770's Silk Bonnets (2) 12. Eyelets and lacing garments 13. byzantine/persian fabric designs? 14. Va. (U.S.) talk on 17C wardrobes 15. Color coordination ---------------------------------------------------------------------- maggie pierce [49,113]CSuX:bodice-dress Subject: Re: bodice-dress From: Maggie Pierce Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 01:06:41 -0500 In a message dated 97-01-05 18:51:13 EST, you write: << a while back I requested help finding documentation for a dress that was basically a front lace bodice with skirt attached worn over a linia sometime out of wool. I have seen it numerous times in the SCA and someone was going to send me paperwork but I haven't seen it and have lost the name.There is a running battle if this is period (somewhere.sometime) or a SCA Myth costume. Like barbarian women in g-strings and pasties with swords! (UGGGGK). Thanks Morigianna >> Nope, this is a perfectly legitimate 15th-16th century Irish gown. The dress laces completely closed, and is essentially a square waisted (as opposed to pointed) bodice with a skirt gathered or pleated to it, which opens in the front. The pictures which document it are from Lucas de Heere and from John Derrick's Image of Ireland, both primary sources. I probably have to take the credit/blame for intriducing this gown into the SCA in Caid. Where it has gone from there is something over which I have no control:) Here is the note from the Clan MacColin costume notes (amply documented) on women's garb: "Our available illustrations, save one, of this garment show it on town women and women of chiefly estate. The waisted Irish dress is a bodice and skirt combination of the same fabric. The upper part was made like a bodice, and presumably served the same purpose. Sleeves were probably detachable. They are shown in the illustrations to be very narrow and fitting close to the arm and tied or buttoned at the wrist. If they completely enclosed the arm, they were open along the bottom seam to accomodate the billowing leine sleeve. The skirt was split up the front to alow a panel, an underskirt, or possible even the leine to show. Some of the front corners were cut very long, then brought up through the belt to show off a lining or left loose to provide occupation for train bearers." The "save one" is the Derrick wood cut showing a woman having her house burnt down by native troops, demonstrating the barbarity of the "mere" Irish. The remark abour train bearers refers to a comment in Walker (1798) who says his grandmother remembered in her youth having a gown with a train so long it had to be born up behind her. Some of the work which contributed to the MacColin notes was mine. Hope this helps! Maggie Countess of Southampton ------------------------------ kelvin wilson [41,114]CSuX:max tilke s books Subject: Re: Max Tilke's books From: Kelvin Wilson Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 10:07:00 MET >The interest for me was Plate 66, #9, showing some Turkish women's taffeta >trousers which he labels as dating from 1570 to 1600, which are extremely >long and baggy, but tie up at the calf, letting the baggy part hang down >about the ankles. In other documentation sources I have though, I haven't >any examples of this style occurring until about 1720. In the 16th century, >I only have seen women wearing the type of trousers which are baggy at the >top and have pencil legs at the bottom, in similar fashion to the 16th c. >men's trousers. Has anyone seen any different? Hello Julie, You might try writing to Dr. Gillian Vogelsang-Eastwood, Stichting Textile Research Centre, Rijksmuseum voor Volkenkunde, Steenstraat 1, 2312 BS Leiden, The Netherlands. She is an expert in Near Eastern costume, has just done a great exhibition on veiling, is in the early preparation of more books on costume of the Near East and is my boss in the research into Tutankhamun's textiles. Oh, and recently she published two very good books on the subject of veiling, ie "For Modesty's Sake?" (192 pages, colour, ISBN 90 5613 017 X) and "Veiled Images" (a collection of old postcards, 84 pages, b/w, ISBN 90 5613 015 3). Bye, Kelvin Wilson, archaeological illustrator Bijlwerffstraat 13-A 3039 VD Rotterdam The Netherlands e-mail kelvin.wilson@tip.nl Kelvin Wilson, archaeological illustrator Bijlwerffstraat 13-A 3039 VD Rotterdam The Netherlands e-mail kelvin.wilson@tip.nl ------------------------------ nancy saputo [49,115]CSuX:basic info on conservation Subject: BASIC INFO ON CONSERVATION From: Nancy Saputo Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 05:05:44 -0500 Angela Gottfred wrote: >>If you do wish to conserve a garment, what are the most important things to do or >>avoid doing?...So, if you could only get across TWO BRIEF POINTS about >>costume conservation to an interested member of the public, what would they be? ******************************************* Being a collector of antique clothing, and given all the horror stories I have heard over the years in regards to WHERE garments have been kept for decades, I believe you would be most helpful by offering advice on PROPER STORAGE! -No plastic bags (moisture might be trapped inside causing molds) -Store in area where temperatures are relatively constant (70 degrees, plus/minus 5 degrees)(NO ATTICS!) -Avoid wrapping in papers containing acid----use acid-free tissues/boxes or wrap in muslin -Avoid direct sunlight and high humidity -Avoid damp locations, such as some basements -Check for moths and beetles regularly -Avoid storing clothing with any pins in them (rust marks could develop) -Garment should be "re-folded" every six months or so to avoid splitting at creases (placing crumpled acid-free tissue along folds also helps provide structural support) Also, CLEANING: Improper cleaning can have many adverse effects on textiles. -Colors may bleed -Weaked fibers may tear apart -Some harsh commercial cleaning products may not be completely removed during rinsing and may eventually cause structural damage to the fibers Recommend that if the owner of the garment wants the garment cleaned, then she/he should do some research first before attempting the task on their own. Hope this helps you, Angela. Nancy Saputo ------------------------------ mrs c s yeldham [13,116]CSuX:whalebone Subject: Whalebone From: Mrs C S Yeldham Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 11:51:00 GMT RL Shep (?) said he used whalebone in a recent message. Where on earth do you get it from? (please don't say 'whales!') I understood with the ban on whaling there was none available, apart from possibly a few small private stocks (Janet Arnold is making a copy of the Elizabeth I corset with some). Maybe this is an English problem - we don't import whale products? I've certainly never even heard of whalebone as being available. Caroline ------------------------------ chandler, sally a. [10,117]CSuX:henins Subject: Henins From: "Chandler, Sally A." Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 11:00:00 GMT There are some wires from headdresses of the period when henins were worn in the Museum of London but I can't remember many details. As full henins were not an English fashion, they are unlikely to turn up here. Sally Ann Chandler The Historical Clothing Company s.a.chandler@shu.ac.uk ------------------------------ chandler, sally a. [12,118]CSuX:medats Subject: MEDATS From: "Chandler, Sally A." Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 11:58:00 GMT Despite the fact that I gave a phone number for MEDATS on the list recently - I've been asked to ask you all to direct your enquiries through me rather than ring that number. I'll try to respond asap. Thanks, Sally Ann Chandler s.a.chandler@shu.ac.uk ------------------------------ dale loberger [28,119]CSuX:pattern reviewers Subject: Re: Pattern Reviewers From: Dale Loberger Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 08:09:38 -0500 To all who responded here to help me by reviewing my patterns, I want to thank each of you for your kind and generous offers. I was sincerely overwhelmed by the response. Thank you I know that with the information we get after you make up these patterns I will have a truly worthwhile product. I am closing the list of reviewers at this time, with the exception of the list at the bottom of this post, for which I am still taking reviewer requests. If you have not yet heard from me and you responded to this request, you will. I will give everyone a personal reply, and I have not yet contacted everyone I intend to use as a reviewer. I am still matching up some people to patterns. This is taking a few days, and your patience is appreciated. If I cannot use you at this time, I hope that you will consider helping me at some time in the future with other patterns. Eventually I will market over 30 that we have developed, spanning the time from 1700 - 1915. I still need reviewers for the following: #007, #076, #397, and #810. Thanks! Susannah Eanes, Mantua Maker and Fine Tailoring Susannah s Heirloom, Ltd. "We are only the trustees for those that come after us." --William Morris ------------------------------ r.l. shep [22,120]CSuX:whalebone Subject: Re: Whalebone From: "R.L. Shep" Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 08:44:11 -0800 Mrs C S Yeldham wrote: > > RL Shep (?) said he used whalebone in a recent message. > > Where on earth do you get it from? (please don't say 'whales!') I > understood with the ban on whaling there was none available, apart from > possibly a few small private stocks (Janet Arnold is making a copy of the > Elizabeth I corset with some). Maybe this is an English problem - we don't > import whale products? I've certainly never even heard of whalebone as > being available. > > Caroline Sorry but that was not me! However I do remember several messages on the list about sources for such things. Hopefully someone will answer you. ~!~ R.L. Shep ------------------------------ frances grimble [23,121]CSuX:basic info on conservation Subject: Re: BASIC INFO ON CONSERVATION From: Frances Grimble Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 08:58:36 -0800 I'd like to tell an anecdote about storage. Some years ago I used to occasionally shop at a rather seedy local vintage clothing store. While not exactly a thrift shop, the merchandise was low end, the store was rather grubby, and you could occasionally glimpse clothes moths hovering over the racks. However, the prices were low, and at those low prices I could sometimes find a nice camisole or something on that order. One day when I went by, their display window (which received quite a lot of sunlight) showed two spectacular evening gowns from about 1900, both made of black silk and black lace. Much better than their usual range of merchandise. I went in and asked the owner about buying them. She said, "Oh, they're not for sale. The state historical society doesn't have enough room to store their collection, so they're lending me things to put in my windows." Of course, there wasn't any written notice to indicate the garments were on loan from the historical society, let alone an educational description. Fran Grimble ------------------------------ jpmcteer@aol.com[15,122]CSuX:recent mention of whalebone Subject: Recent mention of whalebone From: JPMcTeer@AOL.COM Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 14:53:10 -0500 Sorry to clutter up the list, but I lost the message talking about the difference between whalebone and rigilene. I believe the sender's name was Ron. Whalebone and its possible substitutes are an abiding interest of mine, and I would particularly like to know if there is a source for legal whalebone (baleen) in the US. Thank you for any help on this. Joan P. McTeer, Minneapolis jpmcteer@aol.com ------------------------------ syrilla@aol.com[10,123]CSuX:antique satin??? Subject: Antique satin??? From: SyRilla@AOL.COM Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 15:02:25 -0500 Was the satin used in the Eglish Ren. shiny or matte? I have a wonderful peice of antique satin, but I can't decide which side to use as a more "period" look. Thanks Kimberly SyRilla@aol.com ------------------------------ rich williamson [57,124]CSuX:costuming job opening Subject: costuming job opening From: Rich Williamson Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 15:31:51 -0400 feel free to forward this info to interested parties... thanks Large high-quality Costumer with an extensive national presence is looking to fill an immediate opening. This is a "fun" position with very few rigid rules and guidelines, so self-starters are desired. We are looking for creative, intelligent people with good verbal skills. The ideal candidate would have experience in the following fields: Theatrical productions, sewing, clothing construction, retail sales, business management, retail display, verbal and written communication, managing others, and basic scheduling. One doesn't have to have experience in all these fields but, it helps. The position is never boring. The work changes every day. Some days you will be pulling together a group of costumes for a professional theatrical production, the next you will be talking about make-up to a film director. Later you might be designing and working on an NFL team mascot, then creating costumes for a convention. Depending on experience one large events, work on retail displays, meet with directors to discuss productions, help customers with theatrical make-up & wigs, alter costumes for costume rentals, and much more. We are looking for a full-time employee that has aspirations toward moving on to managing, and running large projects. We are also looking for part-time and full-time help in an all-around capacity. We are also looking for practical seamstresses. People who can convert design sketches into patterns and in-turn drape, assemble, etc. We are looking for people to essentially build costumes from sketches and design specifications. Pierre's is a combination of three different costumers, the oldest being since 1876. We continue to maintain two separate retail locations in the Philadelphia suburbs. Pierre is one of the world's foremost Costumers with over 40,000 different costumes to chose from, making it by far the largest costume shop in area, and one of the largest in the country. Pierre's has maintained a complete full service professional costume house, designing and manufacturing on the premises, this allows the public and theatrical organizations the opportunity of renting from a wide range of top quality in-house manufactured costume or original historic garments. Pierre's continues to design and manufacture mascots for schools, parades, costumes for Television Personalities, Movies, Musicians, Performers, and many others. If you are interested and want to learn more about the position, please call Rich Williamson at the 609-486-1188 to discuss setting up an interview. Rich Williamson Pierre's Costumes 7882 Browning Road Pennsauken, NJ 08109 (formerly Miller Costume -1876 & Pierre of Philadelphia -1943) 609-486-1188 Phone 609-486-4402 Fax ------------------------------ carrie a fellows [20,125]CSuX:1770 s silk bonnets Subject: Re: 1770's Silk Bonnets From: Carrie A Fellows Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 16:13:56 -0500 On Wed, 1 Jan 1997, Sue & Ted wrote: > Happy New Year to all. > In the book edited by Karen Mullian & myself, Had on and Took > With Her, we found a large number of black silk bonnets listed for > the 1770's time period. Does anyone know of any extant ones? I am also > looking for any info on these bonnets from other sources such as > paintings. I have found a couple but none are clear enough to reproduce. > Thank you for any help on this item. > Sue Huesken > Although I don't know of any extant bonnets off the top, there is a well-researched pattern for one in Beth Gilgun's _Tidings from the 18th Century_, Rebel Publishing, (1992?). Best of luck! Carrie A. Fellows ------------------------------ carrie a fellows [19,126]CSuX:eyelets and lacing garments Subject: Re: Eyelets and lacing garments From: Carrie A Fellows Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 16:19:07 -0500 On Sat, 4 Jan 1997, Ron Carnegie wrote: > > > We use some whalebone for boning at work, and it is far more rigid > than rigilene (as are oak splits also used in the construction of stays in > the 18th century). > > Cheers, > Ron Carnegie > rcarnegie@widomaker.com > Where, where, where do you get whalebone???!!! and is it legal???!! Even I will stop lurking to ask! Carrie A. Fellows ------------------------------ ron carnegie [38,127]CSuX:1770 s silk bonnets Subject: Re: 1770's Silk Bonnets From: Ron Carnegie Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 18:48:55 -0500 At 04:13 PM 1/6/97 -0500, you wrote: >On Wed, 1 Jan 1997, Sue & Ted wrote: > >> Happy New Year to all. >> In the book edited by Karen Mullian & myself, Had on and Took >> With Her, we found a large number of black silk bonnets listed for >> the 1770's time period. Does anyone know of any extant ones? I am also >> looking for any info on these bonnets from other sources such as >> paintings. I have found a couple but none are clear enough to reproduce. >> Thank you for any help on this item. >> Sue Huesken >> > >Although I don't know of any extant bonnets off the top, there is a >well-researched pattern for one in Beth Gilgun's _Tidings from the 18th >Century_, Rebel Publishing, (1992?). Best of luck! > >Carrie A. Fellows > Yikes...I am glad this topic was brought back up. There is a black bonnet in collections at Colonial WIlliamsburg, or at least I am told it is there. Cheers, Ron Carnegie rcarnegie@widomaker.com ************************************************* "The poetry of history lies in the quasi-miraculous fact that once on this earth, on this familiar spot of ground walked other men and women as actual as we are today, thinking their own thoughts, swayed by their own passions but now all gone, vanishing after another, gone as utterly as we ourselves shall be gone like ghosts at cockcrow." G.M. Trevelyan ************************************************* ------------------------------ kirsten niemann [24,128]CSuX:byzantine/persian fabric designs? Subject: Re: byzantine/persian fabric designs? From: Kirsten Niemann Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 12:57:35 EST > > >Any ideas as to the triple-dot patterns seen on red figure vases?.. three > >berries crushed to leave a stain, perhaps?.. or was it a sign of a foreigner? I've seen the same three-dot design in numerous English illiminated manuscripts (Bibles) from the 11th -13th centuries. They appear on alter cloths, cloaks, the background of the ilumination, and tunics. If I recall correctly it was usually light dots on a darker background but the other may exist. (Sources not available currently) I too have wondered if they were just a way for the illuminator to break up a plain dark field in the picture or if they were actual fabric designs. If they were actual fabric designs how were they made -same question as above - woven? painted? embroidered? -- Kirsten Niemann kniemann @leo.vsla.edu ------------------------------ tobey, pam [22,129]CSuX:va. (u.s.) talk on 17c wardrobes Subject: Va. (U.S.) talk on 17C wardrobes From: "Tobey, Pam" Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 15:13:00 PST I'm usually a lurker, but I just received a newsletter from the Jamestown-Yorktown Foundation and there is a lecture entitled "Creating 17th-Century Wardrobes." Here is the description: "Join historical costumer Brenda Rosseau on Wednesday, Jan. 29, at 11 a.m., for a slide lecture examining the prints, paintings and artifacts that provide the basis for costuming at Jamestown Settlement. Following the talk, participants will be able to compare artifacts from the museum's collection to reproductions created by museum staff. Reservations are required and box lunches are available for $5.50 with advance notice. Call (757) 253-7320." I thought it might be of interest to those not too far from the Williamsburg, Va. area. Unfortunately, I have to work, but it sounds interesting. There was also listed a Feb. 26 lecture and tour on the full-size 17th century ship replicas at the museum. If anyone is interested, email me for the information or call the phone number given above. Pam Tobey tobeypam@washpost.com ------------------------------ maggie pierce [12,130]CSuX:antique satin??? Subject: Re: Antique satin??? From: Maggie Pierce Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 23:30:41 -0500 In a message dated 97-01-06 15:11:51 EST, you write: << Was the satin used in the Eglish Ren. shiny or matte? I have a wonderful peice of antique satin, but I can't decide which side to use as a more "period" look. Thanks Kimberly >> You know for sure it didn't look like rayon acetate! ------------------------------ kathleen songal [40,131]CSuX:color coordination Subject: Color coordination From: Kathleen Songal Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 23:54:20 -0500 It was stated by others that color coordination in costume was not introduced until Worth popularized it in the late 19th century. I found that hard to believe so I did a little research. Color coordination was indeed popular in the early 19th century. Ackermann's costume plates will bear this out. In the Dover reprint covering the years 1818-1828 there is example after example of color coordination in costume. To cite a few: Walking Dress 1818: spencer of pale canary colour. French bonnet of same material. Gloves and shoes, pale canary colour. Walking Dress 1819: Pelisse colour is a peculiar shade of grey trimmed with ruby-coloured velvet. The epaulettes and cuffs correspond with the trimming. High standing collar trimmed in a similar manner. Headdress, a bonnet composed of ruby velvet. Gloves to correspond with the pelisse. Half-boots, the lower part of black leather, the upper part of grey levantine. Walking Dress 1820: Pelisse a peculiar shade of lavender. Headdress, a bonnet of white. Strings to correspond with pelisse tie it under the chin. Lavender-coloured kid boots. Promenade Dress 1821: Pelisse composed of dark violet coloured velvet. Headdress, a bonnet composed of violet-coloured velvet. A very full plume of violet-coloured ostrich feathers is placed to one side. Boots of violet kid. Full Dress 1823: Dress of bright poppy-colour India muslin, ornamented with small sprigs of gold. Turban of gold and poppy-colour crepe lisse. Look for yourself and you will see almost every fashion plate from that publication was colour coordinated. Kathy Songal asongal@wincom.net ------------------------------ End of H-COSTUME Digest - 5 Jan 1997 to 6 Jan 1997 ************************************************** automatic digest processor [23,132]CSuX:h-costume digest - 6 jan 1997 to 7 jan 1997 Subject: H-COSTUME Digest - 6 Jan 1997 to 7 Jan 1997 From: Automatic digest processor Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 00:01:35 -0500 There are 23 messages totalling 947 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Va. (U.S.) talk on 17C wardrobes 2. H-COSTUME Digest - 2 Jan 1997 to 3 Jan 1997 3. Late 16th century English doublets (3) 4. Illumination and fabric designs (3) 5. Ermine, whalebone, &c (3) 6. armour sources ...help please... 7. Whalebone, baleen, boning (2) 8. 1770's Silk Bonnets 9. Atlanta sights 10. H-COSTUME Digest - 3 Jan 1997 to 4 Jan 1997 11. The Vestments show at Art Inst. of Chicago 12. Museums in SanFrancisco 13. 00 gromets 14. Not the Charleston, but it's got nice rhythm! 15. Ermine, 16. bodice-dress ---------------------------------------------------------------------- joan broneske [8,133]CSuX:va. (u.s.) talk on 17c wardrobes Subject: Re: Va. (U.S.) talk on 17C wardrobes From: Joan Broneske Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 00:28:09 -0800 And here I am stuck on the West Coast! (sigh.....) I lived near = Williamsburg for about two months in 1987. Visited as often as I could = and loved it. Joan ------------------------------ mary walter [17,134]CSuX:h-costume digest - 2 jan 1997 to 3 jan 1997 Subject: Re: H-COSTUME Digest - 2 Jan 1997 to 3 Jan 1997 From: Mary Walter Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 02:10:25 -0700 At 07:50 PM 1/5/97 EST, you wrote: >Hennins--as far as I have been able to decipher, the way to wear a hennin >is this. >The hair is pinned up on the head as flat as possible, and a small cap >(sort of a "beanie") is pinned securely--be liberal with the pins--over >the hair. The hennin should have the same circumferance at the opening >as the cap because the hennin is then forced over the cap. Haven't tried this but have heard of the "beanie" method augmented by a band of velvet inside the base of the hennin. The velvet is positioned to "run the other direction of pile" from the beanie. Sort of a medieval velco. Have heard it works great. Mary ------------------------------ mrs c s yeldham [124,135]CSuX:late 16th century english doublets Subject: Late 16th century English doublets From: Mrs C S Yeldham Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 11:42:00 GMT Others have answered Eric's questions, but I have some questions myself! Eric said >I've made a pair of doublets in the late 16th C English style (interlined >with heavy cotton, boned and trimmed to the 9's) but ran into a problem. I assume you mean peascod belly style? >The first one I made so that it is buttoned up the front but then noticed >that the picture of an actual doublet revealed that the darn thing was >laced up the back and the buttons on the front were fake. I've seen discussions on this but no actual proof - I would be very interested to see the reference. >So, how is it possible to make one of these darn things so that you can >put it on yourself? As others have said, it's an irrelevant question in period terms - you would have servants. In modern terms, if you really want a back-lacing anything, you cultivate the friendship of people who need the favour returning! After my second year of a back-lacing corset, I make everything front lacing whenever possible! Returning to the peascod belly, all the versions I've seen are front lacing/buttoning. >I used 1/4" eyelets and cording that is slightly smaller and it is not >possible to simply pull on the cord and tighten the whole thing. I put >one eyelet every 1", but I've given up lacing it tighter than using every >second eyelet. The cording does not slide thru the eyelets very easily. >Perhaps that is due to my choice of cording, eyelets or lacing? I'm also puzzled by the eyelets. I know Janet Arnold shows some grommets, but you can just make a hole in the corset fabric and buttonhole it so it doesn't fray. Therefore the holes can be any size that suits you. In this kind of doublet the corset layer doesn't show when worn anyway. >Strangely enough my one mistake is having made it _not_ tight enough! >ie I can inhale fully so it does not actually compress my waist much. As others have said - this is not necessary. IMHE the corset layer around the waist is there in order to make the back sit neatly to the body, which then gives a basis for the peascod belly shape to spring from. Without it the peascod belly pushes the back out away from the body, and everything ends up shapeless. Any compression of the waist will not be seen anyway. >The museum example has shoulder rolls and I have not managed to attach >those properly yet. They are large stuffed rolls and when I bend them >they pull the doublet arm holes (no sleeves) out of shape. Working from memory, the large shoulder rolls tend to be continental, not English, on the late men's doublets. English ones tend to have wings and pickadills. Anyway, if you are making the rolls, then they need to be cut to shape initally, crescent moon shapes, but not the same curve on the inside and the outside (I don't think ASCII is up to this!). These can then be 'set' on a small curved piece similar to a wing, which makes handling easier. The other thing to look at if the roll is distorting the shoulder, is to reinforce the shoulder a bit more - I use drill interlining which seems to hold it. >One person has mentioned that the rolls should be tied on using eyelets. Not come across this, and a priori I think it unlikely. Where do the sleeves attach in this system? Looking at either sewn in sleeves or detachable ones, there will be problems. >I have fine metalic trim on the jacket seams as well as on all of the >little plates Pickadills? >along the bottom and on the shoulder wings. The @##@$#@$ trim took >about 1 hour per foot to sew on! I'm now capable of sewing with both >hands;but there seems to be no fast way to attach the trim. Nope! It becomes a kind of meditation after a while. I would agree with whoever said rolls and wings are unlikely - my impression is that the classic English look of the late 16th century involved wings and pickadills. >I used a "ridegeline" sort of boning down the front. It was a bit less >than 1/2" wide and not very stiff by my guestimate. Is there stiffer or >wider boning available in other places? Still, if it was stiffer it would >really stick out thru the interlined fabric. The basic doublet design is a >6 panelbody and the 6 seams seem to do a fair bit of stiffening themselves. I've stiffened mine (well, the ones I've made) with an interlining of drill (it occurs to me the US terminology may be different, English drill is a heavyweight cotton with no stretch in any direction, usually white). Then layers of drill with steel bones between them, fanned from the point of the peascod and copydexed together (copydex is a rubber based glue). The biggest layer of drill (apart from the interlining) reaches up to just above armpit level, the rest graduate down to one about hand-size over the point of the peascod. The layers of drill and the copydex stop the steel bones piercing the outer layers of fabric. As you can imagine, this can stand up by itself, even when clean! It is possible (tho not much fun) to put buttonholes through the front, but make allowance for this by not taking the reinforcing quite as far over as you otherwise would. The other fastening technique you could use is loops of the decorative element at one edge to go over the buttons - at least one of the Raleigh pictures shows this - silver cord on a silver fabric. The copydex allows a little movement so you get a gentle curve over the front. It is important to carry the stiffening quite far up the body as otherwise you get a crease where the stiffening stops. If you fancy doing one of the doublets slashed to a lining (yet another layer!) then I found that twisting the slashed layer (fine felted wool in this case) very slightly away from where it would naturally lie, brought out the slashes. I didn't have any problems with fraying with this wool. I'm very pleased with the poshest of these I've made - its one of my most successful outfits (despite the fact that the bumroll in the paned hose keeps coming detached from the interlining, and having to be sewn in again!). However, to return to the servant question, even in this front fastening doublet, my husband needs help getting dressed (no, he doesn't normally, its just there are fastenings he can't reach!) Good luck, and I hope these ideas help. Caroline ------------------------------ kirsten niemann [44,136]CSuX:illumination and fabric designs Subject: Illumination and fabric designs From: Jane Bretz Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 08:25:01 -0600 > >Any ideas as to the triple-dot patterns seen on red figure vases?.. |three |> >berries crushed to leave a stain, perhaps?.. or was it a sign of a |foreigner? |I've seen the same three-dot design in numerous English illuminated |manuscripts (Bibles) from the 11th -13th centuries. They appear |on alter cloths, cloaks, the background of the illumination, and |tunics. If I recall correctly it was usually light dots on a |darker background but the other may exist. (Sources not |available currently) |I too have wondered if they were just a way for the illuminator |to break up a plain dark field in the picture or if they were |actual fabric designs. If they were actual fabric designs how |were they made -same question as above - woven? painted? |embroidered? | |Kirsten Niemann |kniemann @leo.vsla.edu I first and foremost study illumination. The three dot design talked about on the illuminated panels is just like diapering done in earlier times to decorate and complete the work. Many celtic designs used dots and dot clusters, and were popular through the early gothic period. It could stand to reason that the technique was used for decoration on the work, or to represent decorated fabric. There was a particular late gothic trend towards realism in illumination. However, the same designs on the dresses and hopelandes are the same as previous period diapering patterns. We seem have this discussion all the time, as many of my illumination friends do have an interest in costuming. Some feel that pattern appeared in the dresses, but they were not as large. Some feel that these designs were painted on; some think they were embroidered. As it is my understanding, the jacard loom had not been invented yet, and large designs such as these were probably not woven into the fabric itself. I have found no definitive evidence to prove one thought over the other, and this is of some great interest to me. If anyone has any other ideas?........ Jane Bretz (SCA aka Beatrice d'Angouleme) ------------------------------ cynthia virtue [36,137]CSuX:illumination and fabric designs Subject: Re: Illumination and fabric designs From: Cynthia Virtue Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 09:22:32 -0800 On Tue, 7 Jan 1997, Jane Bretz wrote: > towards realism in illumination. However, the same designs on the > dresses and hopelandes are the same as previous period diapering > patterns. Hmm... Some of them. I expect that the larger the illumination's actual scale, the more realistic detail is contained therein. So for the larger illuminations, we probably see something close to the real pattern (one of my favorites can be seen at http://www.bnf.fr/enluminures/images/jpeg/i5_0024.jpg) and many tapestries (such as the Devonshire Hunting Tapestries or the Roses Tapestries) show brocaded designs that are fairly specific (and are similar to the designs of ecclesiastical clothing from the Chicago exhibit just past). Which brings me to my real point for the response to the interesting illumination note from Jane: > As it is my understanding, the jacard loom had not been invented yet, and > large designs such as these were probably not woven into the fabric > itself. Regarding dots; one of the fabrics displayed was a dark pink ground with nickel-sized dots of gold woven into the fabric, evenly. This was from the late 1400s, I think. (Someof the other fabrics were the foot-and-a-half-across vine and bud motif you can see in paintings. If the list is interested in the 'trip report' that I wrote for my local group, I'd be happy to send it along.) So even though the fancier looms weren't invented yet, they were definitely doing complex patterns in expensive fabrics; I think the looms just made complex designs more affordable. Cynthia ------------------------------ chuck diters [43,138]CSuX:ermine, whalebone, &c Subject: Ermine, whalebone, &c From: Chuck Diters Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 09:54:25 MST Coming in a little bit late on a couple of matters (my server quit talking to the 'net on Friday). First, regarding the furs issue (sable, vair, ermine), the white-with- black-spots of heraldic ermine is indeed from the fur of the same name; it is of interest to note that the other name for the animal so called is "weasel." Specifically, the "ermine" is the white winter phase of any of several species of the genus _Mustela_. The sable is a marten (_Martes zibellina_), prized for its exetremely dark pelt (in truth, very dark brown rather than black). Secondly, regarding the legality/availability of whalebone (baleen) in the modern period. Since the passage of the Marine Mammal Protection Act and international bans/restrictions on whaling, only certain indigenous peoples (for example, the Eskimo of the northern coastal portions of Alaska) can legally hunt such animals. There are two ways that baleen can legally be in trade at the present. Any piece of baleen that comes from an animal taken prior to the passage of the legislation can be legally bought and sold, at least within the United States. Since then, only baleen that has been substantially modified (i.e., turned into artwork) can be legally sold to non-Native individuals. Thus there are always numerous items made of baleen legally available in gift shops in Anchorage. These include large baleen plates that have been turned into artwork solely by the incision or painting of designs/pictures on their surfaces. While I can't speak in any official capacity on this issue, it would seem that if anyone wanted to go to the expense of buying such baleen art and then dismantle it for personal use (in costume), it could hardly be illegal. The resale of a garment boned with such material would be more problematic. ************************************************************************ Chuck Diters/Bjarni Edwardsson West/Oertha/Eskalya 9541 Victor Road, Anchorage, AK 99515-1470 ph: (907)344-5753 Email: chuck_diters@mail.fws.gov "Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend. Inside of a dog, it's too dark to read." ************************************************************************ ------------------------------ rich williamson [24,139]CSuX:armour sources ...help please... Subject: armour sources ...help please... From: Rich Williamson Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 14:08:34 -0400 I have found that there are two types of armour out there (at least that I know of sources) cheap PVC and real stuff. There doesn't seem to be a mid level armour for tv commercials or theatre. There used to be a company called Friendly armour that made a great latex armour that " read' well. The only kind of latex armour i have found is "conan" style not a typical british knight (that I need) Anyone know of mid level sources... since my customers can't (typically) pay many hundreds or thousands to buy them. thanks, Rich Rich Williamson Pierre's Costumes 7882 Browning Road Pennsauken, NJ 08109 (formerly Miller Costume -1876 & Pierre of Philadelphia -1943) 609-486-1188 Phone 609-486-4402 Fax ------------------------------ sharon and/or mikie [29,140]CSuX:ermine, whalebone, &c Subject: Ermine, whalebone, &c From: Sharon and/or Mikie Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 14:40:14 -0500 >Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 09:54:25 MST >Reply-To: chuck_diters@MAIL.FWS.GOV >Sender: Historic Costume List >From: Chuck Diters >Subject: Ermine, whalebone, &c >To: Multiple recipients of list H-COSTUME > > > > > While I can't speak in any official capacity on this issue, it would > seem that if anyone wanted to go to the expense of buying such baleen > art and then dismantle it for personal use (in costume), it could > hardly be illegal. The resale of a garment boned with such material > would be more problematic. > > Not that I would ever do this, but I bet you could fight the courts in this issue and say that the piece of clothing you made IS a piece of art... :) Sharon ***************************** * * * DON'T MESS WITH TECHIES - * * * * THEY ALL CARRY KNIVES * * * ***************************** ------------------------------ carrie a fellows [20,141]CSuX:whalebone, baleen, boning Subject: Whalebone, baleen, boning From: Carrie A Fellows Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 15:37:56 -0500 Thank you to Chuck Diters for citing the Marine Mammal Protection Act and how it works. I don't advocate killing whales. However (and I know I'm not alone here, there are hundreds of plastic- and steel-weary stays wearers everywhere), I still want to know where Ron Carnegie got his (posted 1/4/97: "we use some at work" and if there's any more available from his source...? I have a friend who insists he has a buddy in Alaska who knows someone who has some stashed in his garage that he picked up at a yard sale with a line drawing on it and called it art...maybe it's the same thing and I'm on a wild goose chase. Anyway, honk, honk!! Carrie A. Fellows cfellows@student.umass.edu Costume Society of America ------------------------------ carrie a fellows [23,142]CSuX:1770 s silk bonnets Subject: Re: 1770's Silk Bonnets From: Carrie A Fellows Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 15:52:02 -0500 On Wed, 1 Jan 1997, Sue & Ted wrote: > Happy New Year to all. > In the book edited by Karen Mullian & myself, Had on and Took > With Her, we found a large number of black silk bonnets listed for > the 1770's time period. Does anyone know of any extant ones? I am also > looking for any info on these bonnets from other sources such as > paintings. I have found a couple but none are clear enough to reproduce. > Thank you for any help on this item. > Sue Huesken > I think I may have been precipitous in my reply yesterday re: said black silk bonnets. The source I listed for a pattern was for a calash, and talking to a friend later we decided you probably weren't looking for calashes, but (duh) black silk bonnets. Stubbs has some in paintings circa 1790s for sure, I don't know about any earlier. Sorry!! Carrie A. Fellows cfellows@student.umass.edu Costume Society of America ------------------------------ cheryl melnick [57,143]CSuX:whalebone, baleen, boning Subject: Re: Whalebone, baleen, boning From: Cheryl Melnick Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 14:17:58 -0800 "who has some stashed in his garage that he picked up at a yard sale with a line drawing on it and called it art" The type of drawing that I believe you are describing is called Scrimshaw, practiced by whalers and sailors and seamen for centuries. I just returned from a trip to Rhode Island and visited a wonderful historical sailing museum in Mystic Seaport. In addition to having persons work the 30 different buildings so that you can understand the type of lifestyle (they were for the most part not historical reinactors, they were people who still practice different types of seacrafts, etc), there was an entire display cabinet of whalebones used for corset stays, most of which were engraved with different designs of the period by sailors. I also visited a local scrimshaw artist, and asked where he procured his ivory. He mentioned that his family used to be in the whaling business, and tried to sell the teeth at some point, but no one wanted them (this was about 50 years ago). His family kept them, and one day he tried to draw on it, and it eventually became a business for him. He said he had enough to last about two more years, and was currently talking with some Asian continent countries for more. Cheryl _______________________________ Cheryl Melnick General Manager Sessionware Inc. (Microsoft Solution Provider Partner) cheryl@sessionware.com 408-559-7799 http://www.sessionware.com >-----Original Message----- >From: Carrie A Fellows [SMTP:cfellows@STUDENT.UMASS.EDU] >Sent: Tuesday, January 07, 1997 12:38 PM >To: Multiple recipients of list H-COSTUME >Subject: Whalebone, baleen, boning > >Thank you to Chuck Diters for citing the Marine Mammal Protection Act and >how it works. > >I don't advocate killing whales. However (and I know I'm not alone >here, there are hundreds of plastic- and steel-weary stays wearers >everywhere), I still want to know where Ron Carnegie got his (posted >1/4/97: "we use some at work" and if there's any more available from his >source...? I have a friend who insists he has a buddy in Alaska who >knows someone who has some stashed in his garage that he picked up at a >yard sale with a line drawing on it and called it art...maybe it's the >same thing and I'm on a wild goose chase. > >Anyway, honk, honk!! > >Carrie A. Fellows >cfellows@student.umass.edu >Costume Society of America ------------------------------ loren dearborn [63,144]CSuX:atlanta sights Subject: Atlanta sights From: Loren Dearborn Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 15:08:53 PST Well, I'm back from my trip to Atlanta and I thought some of you might be interested in hearing about what I saw. I figured the Atlanta History Museum might be worth a visit, and for a small museum it was well worth it! There were several exhibits with period textiles. The labeling in many of the exhibits was poor, but the exhibits themselves were quite good. There was an extensive Civil War exhibit called "Turning Point", with a multitude of uniforms, flags and other soldier's accouterments, many of these were presented so that you could see both the front and back of the garment. Not having seen any CW uniforms up close before I was somewhat amused to see how akwardly made some of them were! A few must have belonged to boys, they were so heartbreakingly small. As I recall there was only one women's gown in this exhibit, and a not-to-be-missed beautiful mourning bonnet. Another small exhibit detailed landmarks in Atlanta women's lives: birth, graduation, marriage, careers (I'm afraid I've forgotten the name of this one). There were quite a few pieces of women's clothing on display, my my favorites being a sweet navy blue 20's dress, a stunning christening gown and a sumptuous honey-colored bias cut 1930's wedding gown. Another exhibit hall was dedicated to the development of Atlanta: "Metropolitan Fronteers: Atlanta 1835-2000". There were only a few textiles in this exhibit but they were all quite lovely. A simple wine-colored floral bustle gown was paired with a light muslin gown also from the 1880s. Two stunning 20's beaded dresses were displayed with some information about the Fox theater. The Fox Theater is well worth a visit for those interested in architecture as well as costumes - it's a 1930's oriental fantasy! We saw the Nutcracker there, not normally my favorite holiday past-time, but what this production lacked in the dancers' ability it more than made up for in artistic direction. The sets and costumes harmonized wonderfully with the eastern feeling of the theater. Clara's friends were all dressed in different ornate Russian folk costumes. The wizard/uncle had a magnificently full black cossak style coat on lined in red satin and a tall fur hat. The "mother goose" character was "nesting eggs" instead - a giant brightly colored folk costume with a multitude of similar costumes on the acrobatic children than came out of the mother "egg". Finally we went to several "antique malls" in both Atlanta and Chattanooga. While most of these had very few, if any, vintage clothes, we did find quite a few accessories, from parasols to pince nez, at prices much lower than what I'm used to in northern California. Cheers and a very Happy New Year to you all! Loren Dearborn ldearborn@calacademy.org ------------------------------ eric praetzel [104,145]CSuX:late 16th century english doublets Subject: Re: Late 16th century English doublets From: Eric Praetzel Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 06:50:01 -0500 Caroline spake thusly: > Eric said > >I've made a pair of doublets in the late 16th C English style (interlined > I assume you mean peascod belly style? Nope! I'm really confused now. Payne 1965 has a picture of a wonderfull black velvet (patterned) doublet trimed with real metal. It is not a peascod belly but quite tight. I'm not exactly a fan of the peascod style. I figured that it was a great doublet to go with tights; but there are no ties on the doublet for tights and everything I've seen says that tight, short doublets went out of style a few decades before; and tights with them. So, I'm not sure quite what gets worn with this doublet. This seems to be my usual problem. I make something that I like; but then I only have one piece of an entire outfit. > >laced up the back and the buttons on the front were fake. > I've seen discussions on this but no actual proof - I would be very > interested to see the reference. Payne - History of Costume, 1965 edition p 543 for the pattern, p266 for a picture of the original (Black velvet doublet, English, late 16th C. Metropolitan Museum of Art, Gift of Bashford Dean). The picture (from the front but you can see that the back of the neck is open and appears to have a hole for lacing) and a pattern. The pattern confused me because there was no room for overlaping of the front seam (aka buttoned) and the back seam was shown with little holes all the way down both sides. I finally put 2 and 2 together (after cutting the fabric for a buttoned doublet). > doesn't fray. Therefore the holes can be any size that suits you. In this > kind of doublet the corset layer doesn't show when worn anyway. Really? The doublet is the top layer unless covered by some sort of over-jacket. But that is not easy considering the wings and padded rolls on the shoulders. Everything on the doublet was trimmed for a front view. Nothing has really been placed on the back. > Working from memory, the large shoulder rolls tend to be continental, not > English, on the late men's doublets. English ones tend to have wings and > pickadills. Anyway, if you are making the rolls, then they need to be cut I was looking at the pictures that were supposed to have pickadills but could not figure out what they were refering to. The pattern in Payne is generally quite good but my bet is that the shape of the rolls is way off. I found everything else to be fairly close to my build except that I had to take in about 2" under the arms, lengthen the back about 3" and I brought it up at the hips to exagerate the long downward point at the front. I'm tempted to enter the pattern into Corel Draw and then I can put it on my web page. I'll have a picture in a month or so. > >One person has mentioned that the rolls should be tied on using eyelets. > Not come across this, and a priori I think it unlikely. Where do the > sleeves attach in this system? Looking at either sewn in sleeves or No sleeves on the doublet and nothing in the pattern indicating that there were tied on ones. I am going to make tied on sleeves anyways. > >I have fine metalic trim on the jacket seams as well as on all of the > >little plates > Pickadills? Good question! The plates that I'm refering to are 2" * 5" plates all along the bottom edge; sort of like an ultra-mini-really-tiny skirt with some overlap beween the plates. I figure that is the perfect place to put the ties for the tights. The plates also flair out since they are riding on the hips. The picture of the actual doublet very much has a massive upper body tapered to a tight waist and then flaired out platlets look. > I've stiffened mine (well, the ones I've made) with an interlining of drill > (it occurs to me the US terminology may be different, English drill is a > heavyweight cotton with no stretch in any direction, usually white). Then I'm a Kanuk or Canadian ;) Unless I'm in Michigan, there they seem to think that I have a British accent. The seams on the doublets are heavy brocade + heavy cotton doubled over itself and top stitched then hand stitched down. That does seem to do a good bit of stiffening in itself. One problem is when I have a seam like that at the neck/shoulder/hem then it winds up being equivalent to 8 layers of canvus cotton folded over itself and my sewing machine complains. In fact the foot barely clears it all. Is there any solution to avoiding a wad of fabric like that? In the first doublet I used a similar "fabric". It is like a dense, stiff felt that does not stretch. I've used it in other projects and relegated it for stiffening button seams since sewing anything onto it is like sewing tissue paper onto cardboard. Mind you it did work for my basses, but they had plenty of padding between the flimsy broacade and the inner stiff layer. > The copydex allows a little movement so you get a gentle curve over the > front. It is important to carry the stiffening quite far up the body as > otherwise you get a crease where the stiffening stops. If you fancy doing I ran into that. I didn't interline the neck so I ran the ridgeline upto the neck seam and that seems to work quite well. Time will tell. There are renaissance, Playford and Vintage dance balls coming up to test it all out. The more I wear these doublets the more I like the back laced one. The front bottoned one with its overlaping front seam irritates my neck. The one solution seems to have been a very high (6") neck that folds out and away and winds up becoming support for the ruffs. - Eric ------------------------------ morigianna@aol.com[13,146]CSuX:h-costume digest - 3 jan 1997 to 4 jan 1997 Subject: Re: H-COSTUME Digest - 3 Jan 1997 to 4 Jan 1997 From: Morigianna@AOL.COM Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 19:09:53 -0500 In a message dated 97-01-05 00:03:59 EST, you write: << > sable came from) as well as lynx fur, leopard fur, ermine, and miniver >> just out of curiosity does anyone have a source for documenting snow leopard fur? I have made a dress of fake fur and wondered if anyone has a better source. Its a basic Tudur with flip back sleeves. thanks M ------------------------------ frances grimble [14,147]CSuX:late 16th century english doublets Subject: Re: Late 16th century English doublets From: Frances Grimble Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 16:56:11 -0800 Eric, Possibly the black voided velvet doublet in Payne is actually a woman's doublet? See page 43 of Janet Arnold's _Patterns of Fashion_ 1560-1620 for information on women's doublets and a picture of one. I know Payne put the picture of the black doublet in a chapter on men's clothes, but this would not be the first time a garment has been misidentified. Hope this helps. Fran Grimble ------------------------------ cynthia virtue [75,148]CSuX:the vestments show at art inst. of chicago Subject: The Vestments show at Art Inst. of Chicago From: Cynthia Virtue Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 17:16:46 -0800 Hi Historic Costumers, A few people have indicated interest in the article I wrote for my local group after visiting the show, back in November; so here it is. ---- Two weeks ago, I journeyed to Wisconsin, but on the way, my companions and I stopped at the Art Institute of Chicago, where they are in the process of having a show on ecclesiastical clothing (copes, dalmatics, etc.) They had works from 1310 to the present, but one the most interesting thing to me were the garments from the 1400s. I'm sure many of you have seen the various paintings and such during this period that show very large brocades -- by which I mean fabrics which appear to have design elements fully a foot across, and "repeats" of several feet. I had often assumed that this was because the painter or tapestry weaver didn't want to paint umpteen little medallions, so they went for the overall effect. Judging by the fabric I saw, the painters were painting entirely to scale. They did have, and use as clothing, fabric with larger motifs than we'd even put on a sofa today. In general the brocades were of the thick vine and round medalion type; the best known examples of the fabric I saw can be seen in the paintings: Tryptch of the Mystic Marriage of St. Catherine by Memling, 1479; or the St Eligius and the lovers by Christus, 1449. The second thing that struck me was the actual composition of some of these brocades. Many of the paintings appear to be a yellow gold background with some sort of rich dark motif on them. This type of fabric is well represented in the exhibit; they are woven with a heavier gold cord in the background, and velvet where the dark bits are. Some of the items were velvet of two colors; the one that comes to mind was of an entirely eye-popping bright red and bright blue -- colors of the sort you normally only see in books about optical illusions, or expect to find in illuminations as pigment colors, but not on actual fabric. There was also a smooth brocade which was a dark pink with gold polka-dots; the dots were about a half inch in diameter and about a quarter inch from each other. Most of the copes were pieced together with little concern for direction of nap or motif; it was clear that the main concern was using the fabric in the most efficient manner possible. Some of the gores were triangles so small as to be nearly insignificant; 1" wide at the base and 2" long on the axis; all very carefully stitched in. The last thing that was unusual was that a number of the garments were edged with gold/gilt (dark/tarnished) bobbin lace of a narrow width (not more than 1/2 inch). This bobbin lace was of a sort that would not be overly difficult to find in a modern sewing store, and it was applied with the flat (long) side in toward the garment's body, and the pointy bits facing out into the world. None of the placards mentioned that the lace was added at a later time, although I am still a little surprised at its presence. That type of lace doesn't seem to fit in this period to me but is more characteristic of the late 1500s; Heather Rose Jones has pointed out that there is a good chance that the lace was added in later times when it was more common to edge everything (particularly vestments) with lace. Someday I may write to the museum and ask their opinion, but I haven't gotten to it yet. I suspect the museum usually only gets fabric fanatics down in the bowels of the building where the textile section is, for the guards did not seem to get at all nervous when I and my companions peered intently at the fabrics from about a 3" note-to-fabric range. I was very happy at my nearsightedness, for I could remove my glasses for nearly-microscopelike close views; they were all displayed open to the air and to the visitors. The exhibit closes on the 12th of January, and alas, the brochure for the exhibit is not particularly useful as a document in and of itself. --- Cynthia Virtue, or sometimes Lady Cynthia du Pre Argent All hail Donata Ivanovna Basistova, Muse of Penguins! ------------------------------ june russell [18,149]CSuX:museums in sanfrancisco Subject: Museums in SanFrancisco From: June Russell Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 18:13:13 +0000 I'm going to be in SanFrancisco next week and my main object in going is to visit museums which are rich in paintings of the 16th century (and I don't mean landscape or still lifes.) Does anyone know which museums there are most likely to have 16th century portraits? Thanks in advance. Kat Kat(June Russell) kat@grendal.rain.com Heu! Tintinnuntius meus Sonat! ------------------------------ egerds@aol.com[9,150]CSuX:00 gromets Subject: Re: 00 gromets From: EGerds@AOL.COM Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 22:01:37 -0500 Another source for 00 grommets (as well as 0 grommets) is AlterYears. You can get as few as a dozen at a time, if you don't want to invest in a 5 year supply. Liz Gerds AlterYears Employee ------------------------------ maggie pierce [14,151]CSuX:ermine, whalebone, &c Subject: Re: Ermine, whalebone, &c From: Maggie Pierce Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 22:18:51 -0500 In a message dated 97-01-07 14:08:55 EST, you write: << The sable is a marten (_Martes zibellina_), prized for its exetremely dark pelt (in truth, very dark brown rather than black). >> Hey! I got it right! Maggie Countess of Southampton Mairghread-Ros FitzGarrett of Desmond ------------------------------ bill bledsoe <74650.1510@compuserve.com>[21,152]CSuX:not the charleston, but it s got nice rhythm! Subject: Not the Charleston, but it's got nice rhythm! From: Bill Bledsoe <74650.1510@COMPUSERVE.COM> Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 22:49:28 EST Look out for the one who teaches dancin' in town sweatin' to the oldies in an Alice Blue gown... She bought it herself, recently restored at Sotheby's - she says she is "middle-class bored"... But she's gettin' her money's worth and it makes her *HAPPY!* She's got her morals, and she's got her limits She gives her opinion, it ain't worth a pittance... And she wrote a book which strikes us as quite dense... Yes, she's definitely got more dollars than sense. Are there no poorhouses? Are there no prisons? The workhouses, the treadmills, they are still in operation? Do I not pay taxes to support these institutions? I make my contribution to the poor, indeed I do... Ebenezer Scrooge, in Charles Dickens "A Christmas Carol." (paraphrased) ------------------------------ ron carnegie [27,153]CSuX:ermine, Subject: Re: Ermine, From: Ron Carnegie Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 23:03:44 -0500 At 10:18 PM 1/7/97 -0500, you wrote: >In a message dated 97-01-07 14:08:55 EST, you write: > ><< The sable is > a marten (_Martes zibellina_), prized for its exetremely dark pelt (in > truth, very dark brown rather than black). >> > And cousin to my friends Loki, Fiona, and Morgana. They are all mustela putorius furo. No suggestions of putting any of my ferrets on your clothes please! Cheers, Ron Carnegie rcarnegie@widomaker.com ************************************************* "The poetry of history lies in the quasi-miraculous fact that once on this earth, on this familiar spot of ground walked other men and women as actual as we are today, thinking their own thoughts, swayed by their own passions but now all gone, vanishing after another, gone as utterly as we ourselves shall be gone like ghosts at cockcrow." G.M. Trevelyan ************************************************* ------------------------------ julie adams [25,154]CSuX:illumination and fabric designs Subject: Re: Illumination and fabric designs From: Julie Adams Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 20:52:40 -0700 >We seem have this discussion all the time, as many of my >illumination friends do have an interest in costuming. Some feel that >pattern appeared in the dresses, but they were not as large. Some feel >that these designs were painted on; some think they were embroidered. >As it is my understanding, the jacard loom had not been invented yet, and >large designs such as these were probably not woven into the fabric >itself. I have found no definitive evidence to prove one thought over the >other, and this is of some great interest to me. If anyone has any other >ideas?........ > >Jane Bretz >(SCA aka Beatrice d'Angouleme) Did you miss my post about the applique? The examples of the 3 dot pattern called cintemani are on existing 15th-17th c. garments in the Topkapi Palace Museum in Istanbul (which was once Constantinople, capital of the Byzantine empire for those of you not into that period). They are silk satin appliqued on silk satin with embroidered outlines. Many of the other larger designs in Turkish fabrics were appliqued. I was able to see them in person in an exhibit that traveled through Los Angeles about 6 years ago. Julie Adams ------------------------------ maggie pierce [45,155]CSuX:bodice-dress Subject: Re: bodice-dress From: Maggie Pierce Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 00:00:01 -0500 In a message dated 97-01-07 17:45:20 EST, you write: << < Nope, this is a perfectly legitimate 15th-16th century Irish gown. The dress laces completely closed, and is essentially a square waisted (as opposed to pointed) bodice with a skirt gathered or pleated to it, which opens in the front. >> What are your feelings on making it out of a non clan tartan wool fabric. Bodice and skirt or skirt of plaid and bodice of solid? I made my Lord a Great kilt but as a merchant I have problems wearing a great kilt and the weight on my shoulder wears me down. I would prefer to wear the bodice/skirt "dress" but am unsure where to put the wool fabric. I have also seen a strip of the plaid worn over the shoulder tucked in the back of the belt. Is this correct.? thank You for your help. L Morigianna Caid >> I wouldn't make the dress in any plaid at all if an authentic look is your goal. I have one (count'em) one reference to a "tartan petticote" which as we know might mean an underskirt, and I have done that myself. But I was a much younger costumer when I did . An airisaid (AIR-a-said) is a better answer, which you can do with just a couple of yards of 54-60" plaid (pretty much no recognizable modern sett is period). Belt it at the waist so it hangs a little shorter than the skirt, and let the other end hang over the belt. Then bring one corner up to one shoulder and tuck the other into the belt. If it's too warm or too burdensome, you can bring both up both corners and tuck them into the belt, but the first way makes a very graceful and charming look which is not strictly documentable. The most authentic method is to bring the top half up over your head and/or pin over both shoulders at the breast. Does that all make sense? I'll probably get some correction on this (Hi Regina!) but it works for me. Maggie Countess of Southampton Mairghread-Ros FitzGarret of Desmond, OL (Caid) ------------------------------ End of H-COSTUME Digest - 6 Jan 1997 to 7 Jan 1997 ************************************************** automatic digest processor [22,156]CSuX:h-costume digest - 7 jan 1997 to 8 jan 1997 Subject: H-COSTUME Digest - 7 Jan 1997 to 8 Jan 1997 From: Automatic digest processor Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 00:00:02 -0500 There are 25 messages totalling 928 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. antique satin (5) 2. Late 16th century English doublets 3. Another accessory question - victorian erotica? (3) 4. Illumination and fabric designs 5. Med. Fabric Painting (3) 6. FEMALES AND KILTS 1550 AND BEFORE 7. Embroidery (2) 8. Kilts 9. Mystic Seaport 10. More on 16th century Gentlement 11. Any info on Costume College? 12. admin changes 13. Jane Austen's World by Maggie Lane 14. Whalebone, baleen, boning (2) 15. whalebone ---------------------------------------------------------------------- arfursmom@aol.com[14,157]CSuX:antique satin Subject: antique satin From: Arfursmom@AOL.COM Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 00:05:04 -0500 > I'm not sure what the references would be but my "gut" has always told me to use the duller side. The shiny side looks, I think, pretty bad in photos. The duller side presents a much richer looking garment and I've always figured that they wouldn't have been able to produce such a shiny surface. Anybody else? Anntionette Rose ------------------------------ maggie pierce [18,158]CSuX:late 16th century english doublets Subject: Re: Late 16th century English doublets From: Maggie Pierce Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 00:18:25 -0500 In a message dated 97-01-07 19:09:00 EST, you write: << The more I wear these doublets the more I like the back laced one. The front bottoned one with its overlaping front seam irritates my neck. The one solution seems to have been a very high (6") neck that folds out and away and winds up becoming support for the ruffs. >> One thing you may notice in a lot of portraits, is that the doublet's neckline is cut rather lower on the collar bone than you expect it to be, so it isn't really right at the throat. The line shouldn't match the line of your shirt collar. Maggie etc. etc. I can't wait for AOL to give us signature lines ------------------------------ venus envy [11,159]CSuX:another accessory question - victorian erotica? Subject: Another accessory question - victorian erotica? From: Venus Envy Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 01:36:53 PST I have a friend writing a period piece who's come to me for costuming advice in the past who asked me today if I could recommend Victorian erotic novels so she could get a feel for the seamy and unsaid... I haven't a clue, but I figured a few out here might know.. thanks! heather meadows goddess@wonderland.com ------------------------------ julie adams [45,160]CSuX:antique satin Subject: Re: antique satin From: Julie Adams Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 21:48:59 -0700 >>>>I have a wonderful peice of antique satin, but I can't decide which side to >>>use as a more "period" look.>> > >>I'm not sure what the references would be but my "gut" has always told me to >>use the duller side. The shiny side looks, I think, pretty bad in photos. >> The duller side presents a much richer looking garment and I've always >>figured that they wouldn't have been able to produce such a shiny surface. >> Anybody else? >> >>Anntionette Rose > Satin is a type of weave. In the middle ages and Renn., satin was usually woven of silk and often is interchangeable as silk/satin. In the 15th and 16th c paintings I've examined up close and personal, you can often see fabrics painted to show the same shiny surface you see in modern silk satin. The back side of satin looks more like a taffeta weave (what you see in Habotai or China silk). And Taffeta is period too. If the satin looks antique, then it should look lovely. If it is really "antique" meaning old, you should be aware that old fabric is fragile and tends to fall apart. I have known many to rue the day they decided to use a great "old fabric" find. Some have ended up litterally in tatters. I think the problem with most modern satins is that they are too flimsy to use without lining. I have seen lovely 16th c costumes done using heavy shoe satin. I recently am working on a loose gown c 1560, a la Janet Arnold, where the undergown is an ecru silk satin lined with linen, it has a very nice drape and the silk looks lovely. The silk satin in the original was also a very fine satin. Once I get the decorative banding it will hang beautifully. Like Maggie mentioned already though, a silk or quality synthetic looks VERY different than the standard cheap acetate satin taffeta. Personnally, I find it no more expensive to use the real thing if I can find it in the main garment or banding fabrics. But I can never find decent 16th century damasks in real silk, though its possible to find some appropriate for Victorians. Its always the trims that push the cost factor up anyway... Luckily I had scads of real silver gimp stockpiled for the overgown...being a fabric/trim packrat and all... IMHO, where you use your satin, and how you trim and decorate your garment will make all the difference in whether the gown will look "tacky" or not. Julie Adams ------------------------------ joan m jurancich [67,161]CSuX:illumination and fabric designs Subject: Re: Illumination and fabric designs From: Joan M Jurancich Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 21:51:30 -0800 >At 08:25 AM 1/7/97 -0600, Jane Bretz wrote: >From: Kirsten Niemann >Subject: Re: Byzantine/Persian fabric designs? > >> >Any ideas as to the triple-dot patterns seen on red figure vases?.. [snip] >|I've seen the same three-dot design in numerous English illuminated >|manuscripts (Bibles) from the 11th -13th centuries. They appear >|on alter cloths, cloaks, the background of the illumination, and >|tunics. [snip] >|I too have wondered if they were just a way for the illuminator >|to break up a plain dark field in the picture or if they were >|actual fabric designs. If they were actual fabric designs how >|were they made -same question as above - woven? painted? >|embroidered? >| >|Kirsten Niemann >|kniemann @leo.vsla.edu > >I first and foremost study illumination. The three dot design talked about >on the illuminated panels is just like diapering done in earlier times to >decorate and complete the work. Many celtic designs used dots and dot >clusters, and were popular through the early gothic period. It could stand >to reason that the technique was used for decoration on the work, or to >represent decorated fabric. There was a particular late gothic trend >towards realism in illumination. However, the same designs on the >dresses and hopelandes are the same as previous period diapering >patterns. We seem have this discussion all the time, as many of my >illumination friends do have an interest in costuming. Some feel that >pattern appeared in the dresses, but they were not as large. Some feel >that these designs were painted on; some think they were embroidered. >As it is my understanding, the jacard loom had not been invented yet, and >large designs such as these were probably not woven into the fabric >itself. I have found no definitive evidence to prove one thought over the >other, and this is of some great interest to me. If anyone has any other >ideas?........ > >Jane Bretz >(SCA aka Beatrice d'Angouleme) > One does not need a Jacquard loom (invented in the 19th century to reduce the labor needed to operate a draw-loom and to make it easier to change patterns) to do fancy repetitive patterns. The Chinese invented the draw-loom long before the horizontal loom was introduced into northern Europe (c. 10th century; about the time (spindle) spinning wheels were also introduced, probably from India). In fact, weaving patterned fabrics (i.e., repeated patterns) is much faster than embroidering them if you use a draw-loom or other arrangement of "pattern" heddles. Once the heddles are threaded with warp, the tieing-up is done and the order of heddling determined, any competant weaver can weave many yards of beautifully (and evenly) patterned fabric. Small dot patterns are easy to do using weft floats, warp floats, or weft inlay. All these techniques are very old (a few thousand years at least). >From the s-l-o-w-l-y draining Central Valley of California, Your friendly spinner, weaver, and general fiber fanatic, Joan Jurancich Sacramento, California joanj@quiknet.com ================================== ------------------------------ joan m jurancich [24,162]CSuX:antique satin Subject: Re: antique satin From: Joan M Jurancich Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 21:52:40 -0800 >At 12:05 AM 1/8/97 -0500, you wrote: >I have a wonderful peice of antique satin, but I can't decide which side to >use as a more "period" look.>> > >I'm not sure what the references would be but my "gut" has always told me to >use the duller side. The shiny side looks, I think, pretty bad in photos. > The duller side presents a much richer looking garment and I've always >figured that they wouldn't have been able to produce such a shiny surface. > Anybody else? > >Anntionette Rose > > Actually, the whole intent of a satin weave is to show off the shining beauty of the silk. Joan Jurancich Sacramento, California joanj@quiknet.com ================================== ------------------------------ frances grimble [35,163]CSuX:antique satin Subject: Re: antique satin From: Frances Grimble Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 22:07:14 -0800 > I have a wonderful peice of antique satin, but I can't decide which side to > use as a more "period" look.>> > > I'm not sure what the references would be but my "gut" has always told me to > use the duller side. The shiny side looks, I think, pretty bad in photos. > The duller side presents a much richer looking garment and I've always > figured that they wouldn't have been able to produce such a shiny surface. > Anybody else? The shine in silk or synthetic satin is a result of two things: the weave (called satin weave) and the fiber. The satin weave has the weft going over several warp threads, so any luster in the fiber shows up well. Technically the satin weave can be used for nonlustrous fibers (such as wool), but lustrous fibers look better. Silk fiber is lustrous but most synthetics are more so. Some rayons look fairly natural (and some don't). The shine is affected to some extent by whether you cut the garment with the nap running up or down. Hang or drape a big piece of the fabric and see which way you like it. I'd suggest going to a fabric store to look at their pure silk satins. If your satin shines about the same amount it will probably look correct. If your satin is a different-looking weave on the back, as many are, it will probably not look correct as satin if you use the back on the outside. Hope this helps. Fran Grimble ------------------------------ arfursmom@aol.com[23,164]CSuX:med. fabric painting Subject: Med. Fabric Painting From: Arfursmom@AOL.COM Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 03:40:51 -0500 Questions are being asked about fabric painting in the Middle Ages: Julie Adams responds -- < Anybody know the name of the book being referred to? I have a sideless surcoate made of a deep pine green gaberdine that I painted my husbands arem on. His colors are black and white. I used straight out of the bottle fabric paint and the only problem I had was that the white took 4 coats (NOT the thing to be doing at midnight on the night before Crown....but I was). The overall affect is quite nice, I've had it for maybe 4 years now and machine wash in cold water. It has not needed repainted yet but sure it will someday. Anntionette Rose ------------------------------ maggie pierce [23,165]CSuX:med. fabric painting Subject: Re: Med. Fabric Painting From: Maggie Pierce Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 04:10:37 -0500 In a message dated 97-01-08 03:46:26 EST, you write: Questions are being asked about fabric painting in the Middle Ages: Julie Adams responds -- < Anybody know the name of the book being referred to? >> You might try *Tudor and Jacobean Tournaments* by Alan Young (Sheridan House, 1987). If nothing else, there's lots of detail and some unfamiliar puctures (always a good thing!) and I think it's in there somewhere. Maggie Countess of Southampton Mairghread-RosFitzGarret of Desmond, OL ------------------------------ j.g. [15,166]CSuX:females and kilts 1550 and before Subject: FEMALES AND KILTS 1550 AND BEFORE From: "J.G." Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 01:30:51 -0800 I am currious did women wear kilts and if so what time period, also what did scottish women wear in the time 1550 (or earlier) In the renasaunce group i play in I have only ever seen one woman wear a kilt and it looked great!!!! but she had no documentation or clue about if it was period... Also I have a friend intrested in needle point for the time period 1150-1550 if any of you know any good books on that time and subject please let me know... thank you all in advance... Shae ------------------------------ mrs c s yeldham [38,167]CSuX:embroidery Subject: Embroidery From: Mrs C S Yeldham Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 11:38:00 GMT Shae >I am currious did women wear kilts and if so what time period, >also what did scottish women wear in the time 1550 (or earlier) >In the renasaunce group i play in I have only ever seen one woman wear a >kilt and it looked great!!!! >but she had no documentation or clue about if it was period... Seems highly unlikely to me, at least by the 15th or 16th century! >Also I have a friend intrested in needle point for the time period >1150-1550 if any of you know any good books on that time and subject >please let me know... I'm sorry to pick on Shae, but this is a good example of what some of us complained about recently. This question is far too broad to get anything but a very vague answer. 400 years in the history of embroidery, and no geographical definition? Also no statement about ecclesiastical or secular embroidery. Most of the evidence up to c. 1500 is ecclesiastical and there are arguments about how much secular embroidery was done, or if the lack of evidence is a result of survival problems. The period covers the flowering of Opus Anglicanum which, as a competant embroiderer, I am completely daunted by (look for pictures of the Syon cope for example), and the 1500-1550 period is the early part of English Blackwork, which needs a completely different bunch of sources! Anyway, trying to be more helpful, the best book I've come across for the pre-1500 period is the British Museum's (might be British Library) Medieval Embroidery. I can get the ISBN at home if your freind wants it. Blackwork is a real problem to find good books on, most of the concentrate on modern uses of it (pretty pictures). If she is interested in blackwork, let me know and I'll look up some of my books. There are also some sources on the Web, which I accessed through the SCA sites. Caroline ------------------------------ chandler, sally a. [17,168]CSuX:kilts Subject: Kilts From: "Chandler, Sally A." Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 11:30:00 GMT As far as I'm aware, no-one wore kilts in that period (16th century) - they're a much more modern creation. What was worn was certainly plaid, wrapped and folded and pinned and belted. I'm not going to attempt to spell the name as it's Gaelic and I can't begin to think how it might be spelt - someone will tell me. A kilt, as I understand it, is the 'modern' thing with pleats pressed and stitched in. OK - so now you can all tell me I'm wrong. I'm not Scottish but do re-enact the Jacobite Risings, at which the kilt is a mystical elaboration still to come! Sally Ann Chandler The Historical Clothing Company s.a.chandler@shu.ac.uk ------------------------------ judy gerjuoy [17,169]CSuX:med. fabric painting Subject: Re: Med. Fabric Painting From: Judy Gerjuoy Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 08:06:47 -0500 The Il Libro dell' Arte by Cennino d'ndrea Cennini, traslated by Daniel Thompson Jr, and published under the name The Craftsman's Handbook, is an Italian Renaissance book on how to to various crafts. It gives instructions, among other things, on fabric painting on silk, velvet and wool, and on gilding velvet or wool. Jaelle/Judy jaelle@access.digex.net If the world were merely seductive, that would be easy. If it were merely challenging, that would be no problem. But I arise in the morning torn between a desire to improve the world, and a desire to enjoy the world. This makes it hard to plan the day. - E. B. White ------------------------------ beth + dallas bardot [20,170]CSuX:mystic seaport Subject: Re: Mystic Seaport From: Beth + Dallas Bardot Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 09:59:00 +0000 > I just returned from a trip to Rhode Island and visited a wonderful > historical sailing museum in Mystic Seaport Actually, Mystic Seaport is in Mystic, Connecticut, in case anybody wants to locate it. Great place. The Mystic Aquarium is there, too - nice aquarium. My kids love it. Beth Bardot bardot@cris.com So many hobbies, so little time... O- ------------------------------ betsy perry [21,171]CSuX:another accessory question - victorian erotica? Subject: Re: Another accessory question - victorian erotica? From: Betsy Perry Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 09:14:27 -0500 Many of us have a great fondness for Anonymous's *The Lustful Turk*; not a few modern romance novels are thinly-disguised rewrites. For an overview of the genre, with many enlightening extracts, see Steven Marcus's *The Other Victorians*, which is a scholarly examination of the Victorians and their pornography. Betsy Perry > > I have a friend writing a period piece who's come to me for > costuming advice in the past who asked me today if I could recommend > Victorian erotic novels so she could get a feel for the seamy and > unsaid... I haven't a clue, but I figured a few out here might know.. > > thanks! > heather meadows > goddess@wonderland.com > ------------------------------ mrs c s yeldham [164,172]CSuX:more on 16th century gentlement Subject: More on 16th century Gentlement From: Mrs C S Yeldham Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 14:20:00 GMT A confused reply to a confused reply! Maybe an attempt to clarify matters. > Eric said > >I've made a pair of doublets in the late 16th C English style (interlined > I assume you mean peascod belly style? > Nope! > I'm really confused now. Payne 1965 has a picture of a wonderfull black >velvet (patterned) doublet trimed with real metal. It is not a peascod >belly but quite tight. I suspect Fran may be right - this may well be a woman's doublet - there is a similar one in Arnold. Putting my neck out, I can't remember seeing any picture of any man of reasonable social position (certainly wearing velvet) in the late 16th century not wearing some kind of padded doublet, even quite low down the social scale (well, there are a few pictures of cooks wearing shirts with something slung around their waists which you assume to be the doublet, but you can't see much of the doublet). >I'm not exactly a fan of the peascod style. I figured that >it was a great doublet to go with tights; but there are no ties on the >doublet for tights and everything I've seen says that tight, short doublets >went out of style a few decades before; and tights with them. So, I'm not >sure quite what gets worn with this doublet. Now I'm confused again. By 'tights' I assume you mean nether hose (fit tightly to the leg, reaches from foot up to the garment I'm about to discuss). But these are *never* worn (putting my neck out again!) without some kind of upper hose (mind you it's an interesting idea!) in the late 16th century - the idea of a tight, short doublet worn with long hose is much closer to the 15th century style. In the late 16th century there are several kind of upper hose worn, often highly padded and paned, or possibly Venetians (subject to debate due to the Frobisher picture but I think not an upper class English fashion until James I is on the throne). If it is a woman's doublet then a separate skirt would be worn with it. It could sit separately but certainly I have felt more secure in these outfits with some kind of attachment between the skirt and bodice - can be hooks and eyes, which might well not have survived. In either case (man or woman) it is likely that there would be some kind of attachment to a lower garment. > This seems to be my usual problem. I make something that I like; but >then I only have one piece of an entire outfit. I hate to say this, and I hope you won't take it the wrong way, but I suspect you're starting from the wrong place! I'm not sure what kind of group you are in, or even if you just make them for fun, but perhaps my experience can help? I'm in various groups where the period is a given, but I can make my choices about social role and style. When looking at making a new outfit, I immerse myself in pictures of the period, being as specific as possible, look at originals if possible, either photographs or originals and get a picture in my head of the 'typical' shape and the style variants I want to make. If an item doesn't 'fit' then I don't make it, however much I like it - it goes on the list of 'one day'! > >laced up the back and the buttons on the front were fake. > I've seen discussions on this but no actual proof - I would be very > interested to see the reference. >Payne - History of Costume, 1965 edition p 543 for the pattern, p266 for a >picture of the original (Black velvet doublet, English, late 16th C. >Metropolitan Museum of Art, Gift of Bashford Dean). Thanks, I'll try to get hold of it! >> doesn't fray. Therefore the holes can be any size that suits you. In >>this kind of doublet the corset layer doesn't show when worn anyway. > Really? The doublet is the top layer unless covered by some sort of >over-jacket. But that is not easy considering the wings and padded rolls >on the shoulders. Everything on the doublet was trimmed for a front view. >Nothing has really been placed on the back. We are talking about two different kinds of doublet! In the peascod belly I have found the best way to make them is to put in what I referred to as a 'corset layer' - two pieces of firm fabric attached to the inside of the side (at the back if you are dealing with 5 pieces) seam which are a little smaller than the length of the side seam and come around to about centre front of the doublet. These are laced together, and hold the back in place. The front of the doublet then fastens independently and covers up the corset layer, and can be (almost) any shape you want! >> Working from memory, the large shoulder rolls tend to be continental, not >> English, on the late men's doublets. English ones tend to have wings and >> pickadills. Anyway, if you are making the rolls, then they need to be cut > I was looking at the pictures that were supposed to have pickadills but >could not figure out what they were refering to. The pickadills are the tiny (1" x 1") decorative pieces that turn up around the edge of sleeve heads etc. Tabs are the larger pices which tend to be around the bottom of doublets. >> >One person has mentioned that the rolls should be tied on using eyelets. >> Not come across this, and a priori I think it unlikely. Where do the >> sleeves attach in this system? Looking at either sewn in sleeves or > No sleeves on the doublet and nothing in the pattern indicating that >there were tied on ones. I am going to make tied on sleeves anyways. This in itself makes it rather odd - is it possible it was made to be worn over a sleeved garment - you do see this in some men's outfits. This sounds very like the garment in Janet Arnold which I think is made of leather(?) - very decoratively slashed anyway. > >I have fine metalic trim on the jacket seams as well as on all of the > >little plates > Pickadills? > Good question! The plates that I'm refering to are 2" * 5" plates >all along the bottom edge; sort of like an ultra-mini-really-tiny skirt >with some overlap beween the plates. I figure that is the perfect place >to put the ties for the tights. I'd call these tabs. I'm still wondering about your upper hose! The bottom of the doublet is masked by these tabs and if you leave an inch or so of the doublet below where the tabs are sewn on, you have the perfect place to put the lacing holes (for the upper hose!). > The plates also flair out since they are riding on the hips. > The picture of the actual doublet very much has a >massive upper body tapered to a tight waist and then flaired out platlets >look. This sounds very like the female outline of the period to me - eg look at the picture of Lettice Knollys for the classic outline. The male outline is less exaggerated more straight up and down - contrasts greatly with the very masculine Henrician look of the very wide shoulders. > The seams on the doublets are heavy brocade + heavy cotton doubled over >itself and top stitched then hand stitched down. That does seem to do a >good bit of stiffening in itself. One problem is when I have a seam like >that at the neck/shoulder/hem then it winds up being equivalent to 8 layers >of canvus cotton folded over itself and my sewing machine complains. In >fact the foot barely clears it all. > Is there any solution to avoiding a wad of fabric like that? Nope - I do all mine by hand anyway due to an allergy to sewing machines! Its more like structural engineering than some other sewing! > In the first doublet I used a similar "fabric". It is like a dense, >stiff felt that does not stretch. Sounds too stiff to me. Drill is firm but not particularly stiff, or thick. I don't think you want a lot of bulk, just no stretch. > The more I wear these doublets the more I like the back laced one. >The front bottoned one with its overlaping front seam irritates my neck. >The one solution seems to have been a very high (6") neck that folds out >and away and winds up becoming support for the ruffs. I'm a bit surprised it got anywhere near your neck - what with high-necked shirts and the ruff between your neck and the doublet! As someone else said, cut the neckline a bit wider than you normally would at the front, stiffen it, and it will sit neatly away from your neck, giving room for shirt and ruff. The neck is quite long on these doublets, but not 6" long, and not worn open - there is an entirely separate item called a supportasse which supports the ruff. Just another word of advice on these outfits - don't expect to be comfortable! Hope this helps. Caroline ------------------------------ eileen watson [6,173]CSuX:any info on costume college? Subject: Any info on Costume College? From: Eileen Watson Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 11:06:38 -0500 Could someone please send information on the Costume College, (and any other such events) that will be occurring in So.Cal.? Thanks in advance. Eileen Watson ------------------------------ suzanne hader [29,174]CSuX:admin changes Subject: admin changes From: suzanne hader Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 13:44:04 -0500 For about the fifth time in about as many weeks, I've received complaints about list postings for a variety of reasons. This is ridiculous. In response to this problem, I'm going to moderate the list for at least a couple of weeks. This means that when you post to the list, instead of being automatically distibuted to everyone, I have to approve it and forward it to the list. I'm not going to be facist about who gets to post and who doesn't, but I will return posts that are: a) horrendously off-topic b) replies intended for one person only (*especially* ones that just say "I agree.") c) advertisements that don't concern historic costume d) unnecessarily cruel posts Please please please! We should all be mature enough to have discussions without personal attacks. I don't care if you find someone else morally reprehensible, keep it off the list! This is not a forum for public humiliation, nor is it daytime tv. Chill out, folks. For all of you who have been innocent bystanders, I apologize for the inconvenience that moderating this list might cause. thanks, suzanne ------------------------------ kathleen songal [23,175]CSuX:jane austen s world by maggie lane Subject: Jane Austen's World by Maggie Lane From: Kathleen Songal Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 13:44:16 -0500 I just purchased the book (haven't read it yet) "Jane Austen's World" by Maggie Lane. ISBN 1-55013-791-3 (1996 Carlton Books Ltd). 144pp, numerous pictures in color from primary sources and from the film and television adaptations of her novels. Price $29.99 Canadian. Table of Contents include: Who Was Jane Austen? Daily Life in Jane Austen's England Society and the Spirit of the Age The Visual World The Immortal Jane Austen This is a very "pretty" book just to look at, and also looks like an interesting read. Kathy Songal asongal@wincom.net ------------------------------ anita easton [34,176]CSuX:embroidery Subject: Re: Embroidery From: Anita Easton Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 13:44:55 -0500 Mrs C S Yeldham writes: > evidence is a result of survival problems. The period covers the flowering > of Opus Anglicanum which, as a competant embroiderer, I am completely > daunted by (look for pictures of the Syon cope for example), and the Yes! Me too! Me too! :) Every time I look at Opus Anglicanum I am _so_ impressed and think "I'd love to try that... just a little bit..." but I've never managed to find any writing which covers techniques and designs. There's lots about the style in general, and I find the politics of buying in a "foreign" style of embroidery fascinating; the discussions of Italian churches buying Opus Anglicanum work (from England obviously :) reminded me of the discussions and feelings which spurred the creation of Richelieu work in France. whether you get your embroidery from locally (within the congregation if your' ea church) seems to effect not only the availability and price of the style, but people's feelings about it. Anyway, I shall stop rambling :) Does anyone know of a good book which covers the techniques of Opus Anglicanum sufficiently for me to try working a little? Is anyone else interested in trying? We could get together in mail and keep each other's spirits up in the face of some mindboggling beautiful examples :) Anita ------------------------------ carrie a fellows [36,177]CSuX:whalebone, baleen, boning Subject: Re: Whalebone, baleen, boning From: Carrie A Fellows Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 13:58:33 -0500 On Tue, 7 Jan 1997, Cheryl Melnick wrote: > > "who has some stashed in his garage that he picked up at a > yard sale with a line drawing on it and called it art" > > The type of drawing that I believe you are describing is called > Scrimshaw, practiced by whalers and sailors and seamen for centuries. > I should have been more specific; calling a stick figure like a kindergartener would draw (I'm told the owner did it in fifteen minutes or so, specifically to qualify said piece as "art") would probably technically qualify as scrimshaw. I have seen the real thing and I agree, it's quite spectacular. > there was an entire display cabinet of whalebones used > for corset stays, most of which were engraved with different designs of > the period by sailors. I think what you saw at the museum were probably not individual stays (correct me if I'm wrong) as stays are usually less than 1/2 inch wide. In my experience, it was more often a busk (the 1 - 3 inch or so wide piece used as additional support and worn vertically inside the front of the stays, often within a special pocket in the lining constructed for the purpose) that was decorated for wives, sweethearts, etc. Anyway, thanks for the info! Carrie A. Fellows cfellows@student.umass.edu Costume Society of America ------------------------------ cheryl melnick [36,178]CSuX:whalebone, baleen, boning Subject: Re: Whalebone, baleen, boning From: Cheryl Melnick Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 15:45:28 -0500 You are entirely correct! The items I looked at were busks. Thanks for pointing this out Cheryl On Tue, 7 Jan 1997, Cheryl Melnick wrote: > there was an entire display cabinet of whalebones used > for corset stays, most of which were engraved with different designs of > the period by sailors. On Tue, 7 Jan 1997, Carrie A. Fellows wrote: I think what you saw at the museum were probably not individual stays (correct me if I'm wrong) as stays are usually less than 1/2 inch wide. In my experience, it was more often a busk (the 1 - 3 inch or so wide piece used as additional support and worn vertically inside the front of the stays, often within a special pocket in the lining constructed for the purpose) that was decorated for wives, sweethearts, etc. _______________________________ Cheryl Melnick General Manager Sessionware Inc. (Microsoft Solution Provider Partner) cheryl@sessionware.com 408-559-7799 http://www.sessionware.com > ------------------------------ margo anderson [21,179]CSuX:another accessory question - victorian erotica? Subject: Re: Another accessory question - victorian erotica? From: Margo Anderson Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 15:45:50 -0500 5c6 At 01:36 AM 1/7/97 PST, you wrote: >I have a friend writing a period piece who's come to me for >costuming advice in the past who asked me today if I could recommend >Victorian erotic novels so she could get a feel for the seamy and >unsaid... There are quite a few reprints of Victorian porn available. Some titles in my collection are "The Pearl" (collected from a magazine) "The Romance of Lust", and "The Boudoir". All of these were published by Grove Press and purchased from chain bookstores. They can usually be found in the fiction section under A for anonymous. Interstingly, none of these focus on corsetry and tight lacing. Apparently, that was a fetish outside ordinary erotica, as it is today. They do, however, contain an inordinate amount of flagellation...after all, they are British publications! Margo ------------------------------ margo anderson [18,180]CSuX:antique satin Subject: Re: antique satin From: Margo Anderson Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 15:46:44 -0500 Are we talking about antique satin, as in "antique fabric with a satin weave" or about the home decorating fabric known as "antique satin"? If the second here's what I have to say. This fabric drapes fabulously. I once made an Italian Renaissance gown with 17 yards in the skirt, and it looked wonderful. The satin side usually has a fairly subtle shine and the other side has a nice, irregular slubbed weave. The draw backs are these: First, it ravels like a big dog. I cut that italian number ten inches too long, and a good thing, because by the time I was done sewing, six inches had dropped off it. I'd serge or otherwise finish all edges, including lower edges waiting to be hemmed. Second, it snags, especially on the shiny side. Third, it stretches a lot, especially on bias seams such as those on cloaks or flared skirts. I'd let anything like that hang for a week before hemming. Fifth, It's very heavy. ------------------------------ heather leigh harrison [76,181]CSuX:whalebone Subject: whalebone From: Heather Leigh Harrison Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 15:47:51 -0500 O.K., I guess it's time for me to identify myself. I am the current costumer at Mystic Seaport Museum - the maritime history museum mentioned in Cheryl's entry on Tuesday. Yes, we do have an incredible collection of original pieces of scrimshaw (you are correct Cheryl, that's what you call drawings on whalebone, ivory and other carvable substances like teeth and horns.) Just to clarify (and further everyone's knowledge), what is commonly called "whalebone" (and listed as that in original ship's logs) is actually baleen (the yellow or parchment colored strands of keratin found in the mouths of whales without teeth like Right and Bowhead Whales.) These whales were hunted for their baleen, to be marketed as corset boning and for their blubber to be melted down into oil. The other primary whales hunted were Sperm Whales which were desirable for their spermacetti-the stuff inside their headcase (used in candles and such) and their oil. In all of these whales, their actual bones and teeth were excess parts of the process. These pieces were not marketed for anything and were discarded. Therefore they were easily accessible to sailors and used for folk art. The carving of scrimshaw was a common pastime for sailors aboard vessels (mainly though not excusively whaling vessels) throughout the nineteenth century and earlier. (What else are you going to do on a 3-5 year whaling voyage when you can't find whales!!) The pieces in our collection (usually white or a light ivory color) are primarily the bones and teeth of the whale. These were what was decorated and given as gifts. The baleen that was marketed and sold as corset stays was usually unembellished. We DO NOT use whalebone (either bone or baleen) in any of our costumes in use at the museum. While we tell the history of whaling, we do not advocate it. I use the same methods you all have mentioned (rigilene-on less constructed and less accurate garments- and flat steel or spiral bones.) In other places I've worked, I have used sprung steel for large hoops (even bigger than 1860's hoopskirts) or occasionally even plastic hula hoops when I needed something lightweight and flexible. NO...I would not ever use these in anything even remotely related to historic recreations...strictly fun theatre!! While I'm disclosing my connection with you all and with the museum, I'll say that Cheryl is correct that we don't have everyone in costume. We span over 100 years of history and it's a little unfeasible with limited staffing, schedules and budgets. We do however have a roleplaying program which involves members of our staff who have researched and created characters from the year 1876. These are not factual people (like the roleplaying at Plimoth Plantation) though they are completely steeped in history and very accurate. They are more of a compilation of various peoples as opposed to being representative of one specific individual. Their clothing is intended to be completely historically accurate of the era as well as the character being portrayed. These roleplayers are accessible to our visitors year round in various venues throughout the museum grounds in order to converse with them from the year 1876. They are also used in outreach programs from the museum to schools, senior centers and social groups. In addition we do theatrical presentations with modern actors who are costumed according to the needs of the piece. (All of these vary in their accuracy according to what they are and what they are used for.) There are also some other programs on the grounds which use costume as a method to convey a "generic Victorian feel" (my words not the museum's) about the grounds. These costumes are not neccessarily historically accurate but do add to the general ambiance of the place. I should explain too, that I'm speaking in a few vague terms (ie:"their clothing is intended to be..." and "I am the current costumer...") because this position is in flux and may be in danger of being eliminated. I came to it in October (after 7 years of being overhired seasonally and contracted for specific projects) when the costumer for the past 9 years resigned to pursue other ventures. It is my hope that it will continue, as I really feel (personal preferences aside) that it is an invaluable tool in communicating with visitors about America and the sea. (not to mention history world-wide) If any of you are ever in the Mystic, Ct area, please try to make time to stop in and see the museum. If nothing else, I'd say you'd love the scrimshaw exhibit....since so many of you seem intrigued by this whalebone discussion. Here's hoping I'll be able to continue conversing with you via this H-costume line and that museums and the arts in general will continue to see the value in the use of clothing and costume in the story they are trying to tell. ------------------------------ End of H-COSTUME Digest - 7 Jan 1997 to 8 Jan 1997 ************************************************** automatic digest processor [28,182]CSuX:h-costume digest - 8 jan 1997 to 9 jan 1997 Subject: H-COSTUME Digest - 8 Jan 1997 to 9 Jan 1997 From: Automatic digest processor Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 00:01:37 -0500 There are 29 messages totalling 887 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Victorian Erotica 2. verse on a busk 3. fabric painting and dying classes 4. More on 16th century Gentlement 5. Bronzino book (3) 6. Crocheted Lace 7. Late 16th century English doublets 8. Another accessory question - victorian erotica? (2) 9. Kilts (4) 10. [Fwd: Re: Illumination and fabric designs] 11. American stockings and mitts cira 1861 (2) 12. FEMALES AND KILTS 1550 AND BEFORE 13. antique satin 14. Illumination and fabric designs (2) 15. Opus anglicanum 16. Wigs 17. Scottish Question 18. Color coordination 19. Wool satin 20. Embroidery 21. Opus Anglicanum ---------------------------------------------------------------------- susan [16,183]CSuX:victorian erotica Subject: Victorian Erotica From: Susan Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 07:49:57 -0500 _A Man with a Maid_ It even includes a fair amount of costume description in at least one scene as the male, uh, lead, undresses the, uh, heroine the first time. _Life On Board a Yacht_, but it's a bit heavy on the flagellation. Anonymous is the author of both I believe. :) Susan susan@pcnet.com ------------------------------ heather leigh harrison [15,184]CSuX:verse on a busk Subject: verse on a busk From: Heather Leigh Harrison Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 07:50:19 -0500 Oh, I forgot to share this with you. It's an inscription carved into a corset busk- "Accept, dear girl this busk from me; Carved by my humble hand. I took it from a Sparm Whale's jaw, One thousand miles from land! In many a gale, has been the Whale, In which this bone did rest, His time is past, his bone at last Must now support thy brest" (What ingenious rhyming!!) Cheerio!! ------------------------------ sylvia rognstad [12,185]CSuX:fabric painting and dying classes Subject: fabric painting and dying classes From: Sylvia Rognstad Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 07:50:37 -0500 This isn't a historical costume question, but I don't know any other email addresses or websites to address this to, so if anyone has any info I would be most appreciative. I'm looking for places to get intensive instruction in fabric painting and dyeing as this is one aspect of costuming that really interests me and I would like to pursue it job wise. I'm not refering to masters programs, as I've already got my MFA, but workshops and that kind of thing. I don't mind traveling if it's worth it. Thanks a lot. Sylvia ------------------------------ rainbow greenwood [42,186]CSuX:more on 16th century gentlement Subject: Re: More on 16th century Gentlement From: Rainbow Greenwood Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 07:51:19 -0500 On Wed, 8 Jan 1997, Mrs C S Yeldham wrote: > > > Eric said > > > >laced up the back and the buttons on the front were fake. > > I've seen discussions on this but no actual proof - I would be very > > interested to see the reference. > >Payne - History of Costume, 1965 edition p 543 for the pattern, p266 for a > >picture of the original (Black velvet doublet, English, late 16th C. > >Metropolitan Museum of Art, Gift of Bashford Dean). > For those who want to check the source, it seems to still be pictured in Payne in the 1992 ed. on p 310, figure 12-9, the caption reads "Black velvet jerkin, English, late 1500s. (Metropolitan Museum of Art, gift of Bashford Dean)" so it is called a jerkin in this edition, but it meets all the descriptions from Eric--including both rolls and wings at the shoulders, short tabs at the waist, back lace hole on neck, and no apparent peascod belly. I claim no expertise in the period, but it does look like a male garment to me, despite the tight fit. The picture is taken from straight on, so it is possible that the belly is subtle and would show from another angle? Anyway, the picture probably appears in many editions of Payne, if not elswhere, if someone with more expertise wants to look at the same source as Eric's to answer his question. Tights still don't really work with it, though--sorry Eric. Hope this helps. Rainbow Greenwood lurker, Costume Grad Student rgreenwo@sunflowr.usd.edu http://www.usd.edu/~rgreenwo ------------------------------ carole newson-smith [20,187]CSuX:bronzino book Subject: Bronzino book From: Carole Newson-Smith Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 07:51:47 -0500 I just got a book today that I am pleased with and wanted to tell you about it. It's soft bound with 8" by 11" pages, more pictures than text. Lots of portraits, all are in color and my guess is that the color reproduction is pretty good. 80 pages, $US14.95 plus shipping. I ordered several books from Hacker Art Books in October. Two came the next week and and the last one finally arrived today. If you are interested in getting a copy of this book or their catalog, call them at 212-688-2554, or go visit when you are in town at: 45 West 57ty Street, 5th Floor New York, NY. Carole Newson-Smith Cordelia Toser in the SCA ------------------------------ penny e. ladnier [15,188]CSuX:crocheted lace Subject: Crocheted Lace From: "Penny E. Ladnier" Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 07:54:08 -0500 I am researching crocheted lace from 1930-50. Does anyone know if crocheted lace was made by machine during this time? I am also looking for a history on this type of lace. Does anyone know of references? Please respond personally. Penny Penny E. Ladnier, Virginia Commonwealth University s0peladn@erols.com http://www.geocities.com/BourbonStreet/2157 member: Costume Society of America American Fashion Council Association for Information Systems Professionals ------------------------------ margo anderson [66,189]CSuX:late 16th century english doublets Subject: Re: Late 16th century English doublets From: Margo Anderson Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 07:54:38 -0500 >> >laced up the back and the buttons on the front were fake. >> I've seen discussions on this but no actual proof - I would be very >> interested to see the reference. >Payne - History of Costume, 1965 edition p 543 for the pattern, p266 for a >picture of the original (Black velvet doublet, English, late 16th C. >Metropolitan Museum of Art, Gift of Bashford Dean). I got the book from the library today. Unfortunately, most of the patterns, including the relevant one, have been razored out (and I'd like to find the vandal that did it and do him in with a seam ripper) but here is my take on the photograph. I have to agree with the others who believe this is a woman's garment. The photo shows highlights on the upper chest area that would be the result of a high, corseted bust. There are also horizontal wrinkles that would show if the bust wasn't filled out enough. > > The picture (from the front but you can see that the back of the neck is >open and appears to have a hole for lacing) Well, no. What we have here is a garment that was photographed on a person or mannequin, and a creative graphic artist who cut the neck of the model out of the picture, leaving what looks like an open back. The "hole" is a small white dot, unclear as to its true nature. The pattern >confused me because there was no room for overlaping of the front seam (aka >buttoned) and the back seam was shown with little holes all the way down >both sides. The writer doesn't claim that the pattern was taken from the garment. I think it's likely that the patterns were prepared from the photographs. > There is a clear overlap of the left center front plate over the right cf plate, which, to my eye, certainly refutes the back laced theory. Does anyone know when the left overlap=male, right=female nonsense began? If so, it could determine the gender of this garment's original owner. The sleeve rolls are very large, definatly cut on the crescent. There are secondary "wings" that look like cap sleeves. In his e-mail to me Eric says: " From what I've read in the original the trim was actually wire woven thru the fabric; wire that was both decretative as well as functionally a stifferener. While I had to internally wire the shoulder wings; they simply used the wire trim to stiffen it." This seems unlikely. The trim appears to me to be a standard mettallic bobbin lace, which would have been made using metallic thread made by winding either very fine wire or strips of metal sheet around a silk core, which is not stiff enough to serve as a garment stiffener. I mean no offense to Eric. It sounds like he did a fine job given the information he had, and to make the same garment over because the book told him he was in error...hats off to him! This is just another example of why costume research is like housework....the job is never done and nobody notices unless you don't do it. Margo Anderson "One Tough Costumer" > ------------------------------ maggie pierce [7,190]CSuX:another accessory question - victorian erotica? Subject: Re: Another accessory question - victorian erotica? From: Maggie Pierce Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 07:54:59 -0500 Yup, I was right. I sat down with the Edward R Hamilton catalong late last night and must have foung half a dozen, maybe more. MaggiRos ------------------------------ nadine graham pelikan [33,191]CSuX:kilts Subject: Re: Kilts From: Nadine Graham Pelikan Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 07:55:09 -0500 This is my first time responding to this list--actually, my wife is the one who subscribes to it. However, the kilt question caught my eye. I often am involved in the fight against the historically incorrect wearing of the kilt. I am a reenactor with the 79th NY, a Civil War regiment originally composed of Scots immigrants. The dress uniform included a kilt, but it was never worn in battle or on campaign, and you won't believe the ridiculous myths that have sprung up around the Highlanders. Anyway, bcak to the kilt post. The Gaelic term for the large plaid that was belted around the waist is the Breacan Feile. It was (and is) a length of double width plaid which has been pleated over a belt laid on the ground. The wearer lies down over it, pulls the right side over himself, then the left, and buckles the belt around his waist. The upper portion of the plaid was worn in various fashions. The piper's plaid worn on formal occasions with the modern kilt, or philabeg, is a kind of back formation of the upper portion of the plaid. The modern kilt, or philabeg, apparently was first put together, according to a rumor that sticks in the craw of many Scots, in _London_, in the early 19th century. I don't recall the source of that story, however. For future reference, may I recommend: Thompson, J. Charles, _So Your're Going to Wear the Kilt_. Arlington, VA: Heraldic Art, 1989. It is a terrific resource for the right way to wear a kilt. Steve "Cold Knees" Pelikan haggis@sirius.com ------------------------------ don and carolyn richardson [39,192]CSuX:(illumination and fabric designs) Subject: [Fwd: Re: Illumination and fabric designs] From: don and carolyn richardson Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 07:56:05 -0500 don and carolyn richardson wrote: > > Jane Bretz wrote: > > I first and foremost study illumination. The three dot design talked about > > on the illuminated panels is just like diapering done in earlier times to > > decorate and complete the work. Many celtic designs used dots and dot > > clusters, and were popular through the early gothic period. It could stand > > to reason that the technique was used for decoration on the work, or to > > represent decorated fabric. There was a particular late gothic trend > > towards realism in illumination. However, the same designs on the > > dresses and hopelandes are the same as previous period diapering > > patterns. I have found no definitive evidence to prove one thought over the > > other, and this is of some great interest to me. If anyone has any other > > ideas?........ > > I, too, do illumination, and after taking a look at some of the > illuminations from the English Gothic to see what you were talking > about. I rather suspect that this is simply a diapering pattern used > for illumination, and doesn't represent actual fabric. Since most of > these illuminations are from bibles and the like, have you considered > that the 3 dots may represent the Holy Trinity? Illumination in that > period tended to be pretty symbolic without the portrature of the > Renaisance illuminations. Since the dots are on the clothes of the > saints represented, and are repeated in the borders and such, it > probably had no actual representative value - they weren't really after > "reality" in these manuscripts. > > The other option I would consider is that 3 dots are just easy to do. > This same theme is used heavily in the Italian voided branchwork of the > Renaisance as "filler" in the red/green/blue areas, and it doesn't seem > to me to have any purpose other than that (again, with the possible > exception of a religious connotation - 3 was a lucky number back then). > It just makes it look better (I copy this style quite a bit, and the > dots go the fastest :-)) > > Mistress Tetchubah (and yes, illumination is what that Laurel was for) ------------------------------ mssheep@aol.com[20,193]CSuX:american stockings and mitts cira 1861 Subject: Re: American stockings and mitts cira 1861 From: MsSheep@aol.com Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 07:56:19 -0500 Hello, I am busy making handknit lace stockings for a Bride who is doing a "correct" wedding -1861. I suggested a pair of mitts ( ie-- no fingers might be a nice addition to complete the dress) Are mitts correct and if so what length? On stockings what type of garters might have been used? I can of course ribb the top so they will stay up, but thought some type of garters would be more period. Length on stockings? Please excuse what are very basic questions, but I am versed in mode and manner of dress for the 18th century... this time period is a bit late for me. Should anyone have a knitting question I would be glad to try and answer you... I can be e-mailed at mssheep@aol.com Thanks Dianne ------------------------------ maggie pierce [22,194]CSuX:females and kilts 1550 and before Subject: Re: FEMALES AND KILTS 1550 AND BEFORE From: Maggie Pierce Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 07:56:35 -0500 In a message dated 97-01-09 06:16:32 EST, you write: << MaggiRos thank you...... i appreciate your help I thought that was the case but was not sure.... I will read your mailing a week ago...... sometimes i skim and dont get it all. must have missed it :) thanks again :) shae >> You are most kindly welcome. And I do apologize if I seemed at all abrupt. You may have gotten in the way of a cranky episode occasioned in part by the fact that I responded to several folks , making sure to copy the whole list, put in a morning's effort as promised, and not one of them even remarked on the fact. I don't actually expect to be praised. But I hate being ignored! :-) Your question just pushed a button, but your reply is most gracious. And I thank you, MaggiRos ------------------------------ don and carolyn richardson [17,195]CSuX:antique satin Subject: Re: antique satin From: don and carolyn richardson Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 07:56:55 -0500 Julie Adams wrote: > But I can never find > decent 16th century damasks in real silk, though its possible to find some > appropriate for Victorians. Its always the trims that push the cost factor > up anyway... Well, if you ever win the lottery or otherwise get scads of extra dough, you could try getting real silk damask in period patterns from Scalamandre Silk. They make them primarily for the *really* upper end upholstery trade, but the stuff is to die for. But you can also expect to pay around $100/yard. I have a friend with a sofa covered in this stuff ($10K for the sofa). Carolyn ------------------------------ jafath@aol.com[21,196]CSuX:illumination and fabric designs Subject: Re: Illumination and fabric designs From: Jafath@aol.com Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 13:51:06 -0500 In a message dated 97-01-07 12:31:44 EST, cvirtue@WELL.COM (Cynthia Virtue) quotes Jane Bretz : >> As it is my understanding, the jacard loom had not been invented yet, and >> large designs such as these were probably not woven into the fabric >> itself. and responds: > even though the fancier looms > weren't invented yet, they were definitely doing complex patterns in > expensive fabrics; I think the looms just made complex designs more >affordable. as a sometime weaver, let me agree. You can do incredibly complex things with a simple loom (frame or rigid heddle), enough pick-up sticks, and effort. The difference is between the _loom_ doing the work and the _weaver_ doing the Jo Anne ------------------------------ jafath@aol.com[21,197]CSuX:another accessory question - victorian erotica? Subject: Re: Another accessory question - victorian erotica? From: Jafath@aol.com Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 13:51:39 -0500 In a message dated 97-01-08 00:38:33 EST, goddess@WONDERLAND.COM (Venus Envy) writes: << I have a friend writing a period piece who's come to me for costuming advice in the past who asked me today if I could recommend Victorian erotic novels so she could get a feel for the seamy and unsaid... I haven't a clue, but I figured a few out here might know.. thanks! heather meadows goddess@wonderland.com >> Yet another reason to get on the mailing list of Edward Hamilton, Bookseller. I saw several reprinted bits of Victorian -- umm -- smut -- in the last catalog. No e-mail, no phone, no credit cards -- write to him/them (the mailing address is simply Falls Village, Connecticut) for a catalog. Jo Anne ------------------------------ madeleine metzler [20,198]CSuX:kilts Subject: Re: Kilts From: Madeleine Metzler Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 13:52:15 -0500 >The modern kilt, or philabeg, apparently was first put together, according >to a rumor that sticks in the craw of many Scots, in _London_, in the early >19th century. I don't recall the source of that story, however. > For a discussion of this, you may want to refer to: The Invention of Tradition, edited by Eric Hobsbawm and Terence Ranger, Cambridge University Press, 1983 see chap. 2 "The Invention of Tradition: The Highland Tradition of Scotland" by Hugh Trevor-Roper Madeleine Metzler Assistant Director of Graduate Studies University College, Northwestern 847/467-4280 ------------------------------ susan carroll-clark [25,199]CSuX:opus anglicanum Subject: Re: Opus anglicanum From: Susan Carroll-Clark Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 13:52:31 -0500 Greetings! There really isn't any big secret to _opus anglicanum_-- it's primarily done in couching (for the metallic threads) and split stitch. I think someone has already mentioned A.G.I. Christie's _English Medieval Embroideries_. It contains diagrams of how to do the stitching and a lot of good information. Staniland, et. al.'s _Medieval Embroiderers_ is good for its plates and its general details. What I would suggest you do is look at a lot of examples. I was lucky enough to get to the V&A last year and look at the samples in their open-display textile room up close; it was very useful for understanding the shading. I was also given a hint by a friend who does this technique: stitch with a very fine needle, even a beading needle. I think the key is patience, and getting an eye for the shading; this technique is not going to yield any "quickie" results. I've only done one _opus_ project so far, but *love* the results.... Cheers Susan Carroll-Clark sclark@chass.utoronto.ca ------------------------------ r.l. shep [26,200]CSuX:bronzino book Subject: Re: Bronzino book From: "R.L. Shep" Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 13:52:53 -0500 Carole Newson-Smith wrote: > > I just got a book today that I am pleased with and wanted to tell you about > it. > It's soft bound with 8" by 11" pages, more pictures than text. Lots of > portraits, > all are in color and my guess is that the color reproduction is pretty good. > 80 pages, $US14.95 plus shipping. > > I ordered several books from Hacker Art Books in October. Two came the next > week and and the last one finally arrived today. If you are interested in > getting > a copy of this book or their catalog, call them at 212-688-2554, or go visit > when you are in town at: > 45 West 57ty Street, 5th Floor > New York, NY. > > Carole Newson-Smith > Cordelia Toser in the SCA What is the name of the book? ~!~ R.L. Shep ------------------------------ dale loberger [34,201]CSuX:kilts Subject: Re: Kilts From: Dale Loberger Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 13:53:33 -0500 As Steve "Cold Knees" said, "I often am involved in the fight against the historically incorrect wearing of the kilt." Well, maybe I don't do it often, but when I heard the question about women wearing kilts, I asked a female friend of mine who re-enacts in a Scottish unit. Here is her reply: "Women did not wear the kilt. Women wore the arasaid (pronounced arisayed) which is a chemise type dress with no waist or belt sewn into it. Then, several yards of cloth, usually a tartan as that's what they wove, were folded in half length wise (if you had a 60 inch length, 36 inches wide, fold to make 30 inches by 36.) Then wrap the 36 inch width around the waist with the 30 inch length running waist to ankle. It would come around the front with the 2 ends meeting in the front but not overlapping. With a belt, attach to the body and bunch or pleat it up across the back. The belt would go in between the folded piece. The underside of the fold was pleated and the top would then be brought up across the back and attached at one shoulder to act as a wrap for cold weather or as a carrying pouch when pulled around the shoulder to the front or for a baby carrier. The loose chemise would carry you thru weight gain/loss and pregnancies with out needing to be re-fitted. And, like the kilt, it was a one size fit all garment and could be passed on from one person to the next. Plus, it required the minimum of sewing. Pretty smart. You all might like to go to the Tartan Museum in Franklin, NC. Yes, there is such a thing. It is in the city building. It's pretty neat and does a good job at tracing the history of tartans and the kilt. I can't remember if it covers womens clothing or not." -- Dale A. Loberger The WoodSmith of Mulberry Meadow (and husband of Susannah Eanes) ------------------------------ glenna jo & bill christen [38,202]CSuX:american stockings and mitts cira 1861 Subject: Re: American stockings and mitts cira 1861 From: Glenna Jo & Bill Christen <"gwjchris@rust.net"@Fe3.rust.net> Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 13:53:44 -0500 MsSheep@AOL.COM wrote: > >I suggested a pair of mitts...Are mitts correct and if so what length? Mitts were very fashionable in the 1840's & into the '50's, but by 1861 mitts were pretty passe'. Elderly women were still shown wearing them in photographs, but rarely if ever women even of middle age. BTW, original mitts were almost invariably black and netted or lace rather than crocheted. (some exceptions of course existed) Unlike gloves at this time which ended right at the wrist, lace mitts extended an inch or so up the arm. They often had a scalloped edge as well. > On stockings what type of garters might have been used? Having examined a number of "naughty" stereo cards from that period looking for garters I've seen what appears to be braided leather, plain bands of elastic and knitted garters. All but the latter had small metal buckles for adjusting. There is a pattern for knitted garters from an 1862 Godey's magazine. They were described then as a new style of garters. I've also seen one original pair so at least one woman made them. :-) I myself opted for the elatic garters which have the advantage of being reasonably accurate, inexpensive and easy to make. I made them of 3/4" elastic and used vest buckles to adjust them. They work like a charm! >Please excuse what are very basic questions... No excuses needed, I field similar questions on my cw-reenactors list from 'newbies' a lot! I'd hate to think what kind of questions I'd be asking about 18th century topics. :-) Feel free to ask me any other 1860's questions you might have. It's about the only time period I feel I can offer any answers. :-) Glenna Jo Christen gwjchris@rust.net ------------------------------ r.l. shep[30,203]CSuX:bronzino book Subject: Re: Bronzino book From: R.L. Shep Date: 1/9/97 9:10 AM Reply to: RE>>Bronzino book Bronzino -------------------------------------- > > I just got a book today that I am pleased with and wanted to tell you about > it. > It's soft bound with 8" by 11" pages, more pictures than text. Lots of > portraits, > all are in color and my guess is that the color reproduction is pretty good. > 80 pages, $US14.95 plus shipping. > > I ordered several books from Hacker Art Books in October. Two came the next > week and and the last one finally arrived today. If you are interested in > getting > a copy of this book or their catalog, call them at 212-688-2554, or go visit > when you are in town at: > 45 West 57ty Street, 5th Floor > New York, NY. > > Carole Newson-Smith > Cordelia Toser in the SCA What is the name of the book? ~!~ R.L. Shep ------------------------------ noelle nicol [13,204]CSuX:wigs Subject: Wigs From: Noelle Nicol Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 16:57:46 -0500 Okay, so this isn't *exactly* historical, but I do need help. I am helping to put on a full burlesque on a shoestring budget. The heroine and a couple of other characters are scripted as long-haired blonds. We want to do the really outrageous yarn wigs, and I remember seeing instructions on how to make them somewhere, but I can't find tham anymore. Any suggestions? Grateful and Desparate, Noelle ------------------------------ northshield folk [26,205]CSuX:kilts Subject: Re: Kilts From: Northshield Folk Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 16:58:08 -0500 HA>Thompson, J. Charles, _So Your're Going to Wear the Kilt_. Arlington, VA: HA>Heraldic Art, 1989. HA>It is a terrific resource for the right way to wear a kilt. HA>Steve "Cold Knees" Pelikan HA>haggis@sirius.com I really reccomend this book, there is a horribly inacurate website showing how to wear a great kilt, please beware of it. This book also has variations for ladies wearing plaids, and references of the different ways in relation to the different eras. Nancy Laughlin-Foust (Its amazing what you learn hanging around with a bunch of Scots) shadewescompany@on-ramp.com Glory,Magesty,Unity Warriors of the Northshield and the Known World ------------------------------ carol kocian [28,206]CSuX:scottish question Subject: Scottish Question From: Carol Kocian Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 16:58:27 -0500 The kilt discussion reminded me of a question I've had for a while. A friend of mine married a man of Scottish descent, and I want to weave her the tartan sash that women wear. I'm not sure what it's called, but it's the approx. 14" by 8' piece of fabric that is draped over one shoulder & pinned at the opposite hip. I realize that this item is not very old, and it's worn today by Scottish women in the U.S. for special occsions. I have the _Tartan Weaver's Handbook_, which gives the thread & color specifications for clans. The information I'm missing: - What are the exact dimensions of the sash? - Is the scale of the tartan the same as for kilt fabric, or is it smaller? - Should it be made of wool or is it also traditionally done in silk? The answers to these questions as well as any other information (like the name of the piece, when it was first worn, or what it evolved from) would be very helpful. I would also appreciate being pointed to a book or two that has the information. I've asked a couple of Scot-o-phile friends, who usually say they have the info but can't find it. Hopefully someone on this list will come through! Thanks! -Carol ------------------------------ jeff gottfred [23,207]CSuX:color coordination Subject: Re: Color coordination From: Jeff Gottfred Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 16:59:03 -0500 Kathleen Songal wrote: >Color coordination was indeed popular in the early 19th century. Let me jump in with a quote I happen to have from the late 1820's, from _Political and Historical Account of Lower Canada_ (London, 1830; p. 131). Pierre de Sales Laterriere wrote "The [Quebec] women are clothed nearly after the fashion of the French peasant, a cap, in place of a bonnet, with a dark cloth or stuff petticoat, a jacket (mantelet) smoetims of a different colour, and mocassins, the same as those of the men form their every-day dress. On the Sunday, they are gaily attired, chiefly after the English fashion, with only this difference : where the English wears one, the Canadian girl wears a dozen colours." (From _Material History Bulletin_ #17) So to summarize: Laterriere felt the women of the English lower & middle classes were colour-coordinated, but their Quebecois counterparts were not. --Angela Gottfred gottfred@agt.net-->soon to be gottfred@telusplanet.net ------------------------------ sarah randles [25,208]CSuX:wool satin Subject: Wool satin From: Sarah Randles Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 20:40:54 -0500 Fran Grimble wrote: >The satin weave has the weft going over several warp threads, so any >luster in the fiber shows up well. Technically the satin weave can be >used for nonlustrous fibers (such as wool), but lustrous fibers look >better. I have to disagree. I think wool satin is probably the sexiest fabric on earth. It's hard to find, but I have about six metres in dark bottle green (and Liberty sometimes does it) which I occasionally take out and gloat over. Not only does it have a deep lustre, but it's combined with a fabulous drape. I suspect this may be the fabric used in some of the fifteenth century flemish robes and mantles. Sarah ****************************************************************************** Sarah Randles email: s-randles@adfa.oz.au English Department phone: 06 268 8898 University College ADFA fax: 06 268 8899 Canberra ACT 2601 AUSTRALIA ------------------------------ sarah randles [35,209]CSuX:illumination and fabric designs Subject: Illumination and fabric designs From: Sarah Randles Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 20:41:17 -0500 |Kirsten Niemann wrote: We seem have this discussion all the time, as many of my >>illumination friends do have an interest in costuming. Some feel that >>pattern appeared in the dresses, but they were not as large. Some feel >>that these designs were painted on; some think they were embroidered. I was recently astonished to find a photograph of a fifteenth century textile with a huge allover design of this type which was not brocaded but embroidered. The accompanying text stated that older 'brocades' of this type are more likely to be embroidered, suggesting that weaving had not reached the level of sophistication necessary to produce this sort of design. I suspect that such a design is more likely to be woven in origin, but may have been embroidered in imititation in an area where the weaving skills were not so sophisticated (i.e. outside of Italy). The thing I found astonishing about this textile was the sheer amount of work it would have taken to embroider this - it was couched fine gold thread, closely packed. I haven't seen another textile with so much work in it for this period other than ecclesiastical vestments, and there was nothing in the pattern to suggest that this was ecclesiastical. And now for the question: what's the reference? Well it's either in Phillipa Scott's _The Book of Silk_ or in _Textiles from the Keir Collection_; I've been reading both. I'll check. Sarah ****************************************************************************** Sarah Randles email: s-randles@adfa.oz.au English Department phone: 06 268 8898 University College ADFA fax: 06 268 8899 Canberra ACT 2601 AUSTRALIA ------------------------------ sarah randles [25,210]CSuX:embroidery Subject: Embroidery From: Sarah Randles Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 20:41:44 -0500 There have been over the lifetime of this list a number of discussions of embroidery, and while I think they are entirely appropriate to this list, perhaps it would also be appropriate to have another forum for discussion of historical embroidery, which would enable more technical discussion and discussion of non-costuming related embroidery. I know there are lists which discuss embroidery, but I feel historical embroidery is different, and I find endless discussion on where to get such and such a cross stitch kit rather boring. I would volunteer to run such a list, but I don't have the technical resources. Is there anyone out there who does, and who would be interested in running such a list? And how much interest would there be for it? Sarah (who secretly views costume as merely a vehicle for embroidery) ****************************************************************************** Sarah Randles email: s-randles@adfa.oz.au English Department phone: 06 268 8898 University College ADFA fax: 06 268 8899 Canberra ACT 2601 AUSTRALIA ------------------------------ sarah randles [54,211]CSuX:opus anglicanum Subject: Opus Anglicanum From: Sarah Randles Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 20:42:01 -0500 Anita Easton wrote: >Every time I look at Opus Anglicanum I am _so_ impressed and think >"I'd love to try that... just a little bit..." but I've never managed >to find any writing which covers techniques and designs. OK, I'll come out of the wardrobe (not being North American) and admit to being an SCAer (although I am also a postgrad student in textile history) with a laurel in embroidery for opus anglicanum work. There is an excellent book which covers this style of embroidery: Mrs Archibald Christie's _English Medieval Embroidery_, Oxford: Clarendon, 1938. Unfortunately, it's extremely rare, since it was a limited edition copy. However, I did my first piece of OA before I'd read it, and while I would now do it slightly differently, it was basically right. OA is not actually _difficult_, but it is astoundingly time consuming, and requires good eyesight. There are two basic techniques that you require; split stitch for figures and other details, always in silk, couching or underside couching for background, virtually always in metal thread. Kay Staniland's _Medieval Craftsmen: Embroiderers_ gives illustrations of both techniques. >There's lots about the style in general, and I find the politics of >buying in a "foreign" style of embroidery fascinating; the discussions >of Italian churches buying Opus Anglicanum work (from England >obviously :) Opus Anglicanum, although originally English, spread as a technique to the rest of Europe during the thriteenth and fourteenth centuries, although it was generally acknowledged at the time that the best examples were English. I think it would probably be better if further discussion of this were off line, so until someone sets up a list (please!) perhaps we could cc one another? I'll shut up and do some work now. Sarah ****************************************************************************** Sarah Randles email: s-randles@adfa.oz.au English Department phone: 06 268 8898 University College ADFA fax: 06 268 8899 Canberra ACT 2601 AUSTRALIA ------------------------------ End of H-COSTUME Digest - 8 Jan 1997 to 9 Jan 1997 ************************************************** automatic digest processor [16,212]CSuX:h-costume digest - 9 jan 1997 to 10 jan 1997 Subject: H-COSTUME Digest - 9 Jan 1997 to 10 Jan 1997 From: Automatic digest processor Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 00:02:25 -0500 There are 9 messages totalling 575 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. armor sources ...help please... 2. Opus Anglicanum discussion 3. Books on medieval art 4. Embroidery 5. embroidery - opus anglicanum 6. Print Materials on Buttons 7. WANTED: SUGGESTIONS FOR POSSIBLE COSTUME WORKSHOPS 8. Knitting Conference 9. INFORMATION Theatre95 - Cergy-Pontoise - FRANCE ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ches [56,213]CSuX:armor sources ...help please... Subject: Re: armor sources ...help please... From: ches Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 13:00:03 -0500 Have you given any thought to leather or denim boiled in leather? It is a very period method and very cheap. I belong to an organization that is looked down on because we are usually made up of poor folks that look for alternative ways to make armor and weapons. Amtgard. I can post your question to two of the mailing lists online if you wish. Be ready for about 100 responses. There are several individuals that do this type of work for the cost of materials and or trade. So if you want to reword your missive geared to trade of some sort you can let me know. Leather can be formed to the person's body or any style once you have boiled it in wax. Gotta do it fast before it sets. If you can find no one I can retype an article that describes the process and send it to you privately for future work. Ciao Ches Member - HTML Writer's Guild ---------- : From: Rich Williamson : To: Multiple recipients of list H-COSTUME : Subject: armour sources ...help please... : Date: Tuesday, January 07, 1997 12:08 PM : : I have found that there are two types of armour out there (at least that I : know of sources) cheap PVC and real stuff. There doesn't seem to be a mid : level armour for tv commercials or theatre. : : There used to be a company called Friendly armour that made a great latex : armour that " read' well. The only kind of latex armour i have found is : "conan" style not a typical british knight (that I need) : : Anyone know of mid level sources... since my customers can't (typically) : pay many hundreds or thousands to buy them. : : thanks, : : Rich : : Rich Williamson : Pierre's Costumes : 7882 Browning Road : Pennsauken, NJ 08109 : (formerly Miller Costume -1876 & Pierre of Philadelphia -1943) : 609-486-1188 Phone : 609-486-4402 Fax : NOTE: 9-27-96 new address: costumes@mindspring.com ------------------------------ joe flowers [33,214]CSuX:opus anglicanum discussion Subject: Opus Anglicanum discussion From: Joe Flowers Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 13:01:23 -0500 Sarah Randles wrote: > > Opus Anglicanum, although originally English, spread as a technique to the > rest of Europe during the thriteenth and fourteenth centuries, although it > was generally acknowledged at the time that the best examples were English. > > I think it would probably be better if further discussion of this were off > line, so until someone sets up a list (please!) perhaps we could cc one > another? > Sarah: would you consider the probable inconvenience of including me in the CC: discussion of medieval needlework? I hope that by learning more about period technique I may improve my own humble efforts. I won't waste your time with questions, I just hope that resources may be brought to light which may help me immeasurably. I'll just sit at the back and not bother anybody. Thanks, Awfully, Joe Flowers Ld. Wulfgar of East Anglia, Meridies -- "A helmet" -Diogenes, when asked what he would take to let a man give him a blow on the head ------------------------------ hanna [11,215]CSuX:books on medieval art Subject: Books on medieval art From: Hanna Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 13:01:32 -0500 Has anyone read, or have in their possession any books displaying original artwork that are good for studying medieval clothing in western Europe (ca 1100-1500). The pictures should be detailed, since there's this artist who's going to draw pictures from them for a web-page on medieval costume. -Hanna ------------------------------ mrs c s yeldham [19,216]CSuX:embroidery Subject: Embroidery From: Mrs C S Yeldham Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 13:01:53 -0500 I'm fascinated by the discussions on embroidery. If those who are not intereted feel this is not an appropriate forum for such discussions, then I would definately be interested in a separate list (but it would have to be a mailing list as I don't have access to newsgroups etc). I'm interested that a couple of people have said Opus Anglicanum is not technically difficult. I feel I can cope with the stitches involved, what puts me off is the artistic standard achieved - particularly on the figures - any advice on that area. I have taken a note of the books recommended! Its one of my few regrets, moving from the 16th to the 15th century, that embroidery seems to have been much less common in the secular context - anyone who can prove me wrong (in England please) is a friend for life! I think I'm going to have to stick to ecclesiastical stuff. Caroline ------------------------------ gary stephens [42,217]CSuX:embroidery - opus anglicanum Subject: embroidery - opus anglicanum From: Gary Stephens Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 13:02:12 -0500 Susan wrote: >There really isn't any big secret to _opus anglicanum_-- it's >primarily done in couching (for the metallic threads) and split stitch. And Sarah wrote: >OA is not actually _difficult_, but it is astoundingly time consuming, and >requires good eyesight. There are two basic techniques that you require; >split stitch for figures and other details, always in silk, couching or >underside couching for background, virtually always in metal thread. Kay >Staniland's _Medieval Craftsmen: Embroiderers_ gives illustrations of both >techniques. I will offer my two cents' worth on the topic. Over the past two years I have done a great deal of opus anglicanum work, primarily on a pseudo-reproduction piece which carries trivial statistics like 700 stitches/square inch, approximately 105,000 stitches in the piece, 1.152 km of silk embroidery thread, etc., etc., etc. While my collegues above are quite correct in stating opus anglicanum employs primarily couching (both surface and underside) and split stitch, I would encourage use of the technique or nue, which is essentially a form of couching, but couching, you might say, taken to a fanatical extreme. While or nue was employed far more in opus teutonicum, there are a few examples of it in opus anglicanum. And I might be so bold as to suggest you really won't have a feel for these lavish, ecclisastical medieval embroideries until you do attempt a piece employing or nue. As for books, I highly recommend a publication from the Getty Foundation called _The Conservation of Embroideries and Tapestries_. Not only are there some simply stunning photographs of extent pieces, both overall and close-up, there is considerable discussion regarding technique, materials, etc. For anyone truly serious about pursuing this medieval style of embroidery, the book is a must. There is also a marvelous wee publication about the St. Martin embroideries which goes into great detail regarding materials and techniques. Lorina Stephens --------------------------- ------------------------------ leta hendricks [306,218]CSuX:print materials on buttons Subject: Print Materials on Buttons From: leta hendricks Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 13:02:32 -0500 Greetings! The Human Ecology Library at The Ohio State University is searching for=20 several print resources on Buttons. Can you assist? =20 Leta Hendricks hendricks.3@osu.edu BUTTON BOOKS anon. The Complete Checklist of American Button Makers, Manufactures,=20 and Outfitters, 1710-1976. Stratford, Conn.: New England Publishing Co.= =20 1977. Softbound, 5 1/4 X 7 =BD, pp 27. anon. Connecticut History of Button Making. Bicentennial Project of the= =20 Connecticut State Button Society. n.p., n.d. [1977] Softbound,=20 off-set from typed copy, 8 =BD X 11 =BD, pp 76. illus. anon. Dress Fastenings and Jewellery, A.D. 1631-1836. Abridgements of=20 Specifications. London: Commisioners of Patents for Inventions.=20 1876. Paperbound, 5 =BD X 7 =BD, pp 479 plus 24. The first in a serie= s=20 continuous to the present. Adkins, Gertrude D. Price Guide to Button Parade. Mid-America. 1969. =20 Softbound, pp 25. Bennetts, Gordon Index [The Emilio Collection of Military Buttons] Salem,= =20 Mass.: Essex Institute, 1950. Unbound, 6 X 8 =BD, pp 24. Bolton, Reginald Pelham. Relics of the Revolution. N.Y.: the author. =20 1916. Hardbound, 8 vo, pp 214. Illus. Bottet, Captaine Maurice. Le Bouton de L'Armee Francaise. Paris: J.=20 Leroy. 1908. Hardbound, 8 X 11, pp xvi, 128. Illus. Limited to 250=20 copies; 10 on special paper. Brown, Dorothy, F. Button Barage: A Book of Button Groupings Drawn and=20 described by=20 Dorothy F. Brown. Chicago: Lightner Pub. Co., 1942. Hardbound,=20 pp 111. Illus. Buzzaccarini, Victoria de. Buttons and Sundries. Twentieth Century=20 Histories of Fashion. Modena, Italy: ZanfiEditori. 1990. Hardbound,=20 29 cm. 11 =BD, pp 143. Illus. Cobb, J. Harold, C.P.A. George Washington Inaugural Buttons & Medalets,=20 1789 & 1793. Hamden, Conn.: Cobb. 1963. Softbound, 8 X 11, pp 36. =20 Photographs illus. Gosden, Thomas. Impressions of a Series of Animals, Birds, etc.. =20 Illustrative of British Field Sports: From a set of Silver=20 Buttons, Drawn by A: Cooper, Esq., R.A. and Engraved by Mr. John=20 Scott. London: Gosden. c 1821. Various sizes, papers and bindings. Grove, G. F. History of the Button Trade in Halesowen. Halesowen,=20 Hostert, Walter, Dr. Die Entwicklung der Ludenscheider Industrie=20 Vorhmich in 19. Jahrhundert. Vom ende des 18. Jahrhunderts Bis=20 Zum Asubruch Des Ersten Weltkreiges. Ludenscheid, Germany. =20 1960. Softbound, 8 =BD X 11 3/4, pp 204. Not illustrated. Ludenscheid und die Knopfe. Eine Kleine Kultureschte des Knopfes. =20 Ludenscheid. n.d. Softbound, 5 X 8, pp 70. Illus. Parent, Albert. Le Bouton a Travers del Ages. Paris: Alepes. 1935. =20 Cloth, 8 vo, pp 158. Illus. Parker, Charles K. 1954 Price List of Military Buttons. n.p. 1954. =20 Softbound, 5 =BD X 8 =BD. pp 44. Perrin, Olivier, editor and publisher. Encylopedie de la Venerie=20 Francaise. Paris. 1961. Cloth, 10 X 12 =BD, pp 228. Illus. Also=20 issued in a limited de luxe edition of 195 copies. Squire, Gwen. Livery Buttons, The Pitt Collection. 8 Pulborough, Sussex= =20 (England): Leghorn Co. 1976. Hardbound, 10 =BD X 8 =BD, pp xxvii, 200= ,=20 lxix. 100 full-page photographic plates. Turner, John P. The Birmingham Button Trade. From The Resources and=20 Industrial History of Birmingham and the Midland Hardware District,=20 edited by Samuel Timmins, London, 1866. Reprinted in "The=20 National Button Bulletin," Sept. 1949, March, 1950. Umland, Berny. Button Collecting, a "how-to book for new collectors." =20 Santa Fe, N.M.: by the author. 1975. Softbound, 8 =BD X 11, pp=20 24. Illus. INTERNATIONAL BUTTON BOOKS d'Allemange, Henry Rene. Les Accessories du Costume et du Mobilier. =20 Encyclopedie du Cheval de Sang. Paris. 1951. Softbound, 9 =BD X 12 =BD= , pp=20 196. Illus. Also issued in limited editions of 20, 100, and 500. Fallou, Louis. La Bouton Uniforme Francais. Colombes (Seine), France: =20 "La Giberne." 1914. Softbound, 11 X 15, pp ix, xi, xii, xiii, 327. =20 Fully illus. Leithauser, G.A. Lehrbuch dur die Gesamte Knopfindustrie. Naunof b.=20 Leipzig. 1920. Luteer, Wilhelm. Die Knopffrikation. Wein: Harleben. 1907. Schamm, Hans. DieDeutsche Knopfindustrie im Geschichte Volkwerschaft und=20 Welterschaft. Leipzig: Gunz und Eule. 1921. Brugermann, Magda. Contabilidad para Fabricas de Botones. Mexico City.=20 1952. BUTTON PAMPHLETS anon. Introduction by David F. Johnson. Unlisted Uniform Buttons of the= =20 US Armed Forces. Vol. I. Southington, Conn.: Collectors of=20 Historical Buttons. Softbound, 6 =BD X 9, pp 16. Illus. Vol. II,=20 format as above, pp 14. Vol. III, Unlisted Uniform Buttons. Format=20 as above, pp 16. anon. Battersea Limited, Manufactory of Fine Pewter Buttons. Catalog=20 No. 4. Lake Geneva, WI: Batersea Limited. Softbound, 8 =BD X 11, pp=20 3. Illus. anon. Battersea Limited, Fine Metal Buttons. Catalog No. 5. Lake=20 Geneva, WI: Batersea Limited. Softbound, 8 =BD X 11, pp 10. Illus. anon. Buttons by Grove. Halesowen, England: Grove. n.d. Softbound, 7= =20 =BD X 9 3/4, pp 16. Illus. anon. Firmin & Sons Ltd. London: Firmin. n.d. [1949] Softbound, 7=20 1/4 X 9 3/4, pp 12. Illus. Adams, George Elbert. A Stencil Check List. Pascoag, RI: Demo Press.=20 1944. Softbound, 5 X 8, pp 12. Illus. Albert, Lillian Smith, and Adams, Jane Ford. Wedgwood Buttons 1752-1963.= =20 Reprinted by the National Button Society from The American=20 Wedgwoodian, Feb., 1964. Wrappers, 5 =BD X 8 =BD, pp 8. Illus. Bidwell, Mae. Buttons, Modern Goofies. n.p., n.d. [194-]. Wrappers, 5= =20 =BD X 8 =BD, pp 14. Mimeographed, no illustrations. Crow, Hawley A. Classifying and Judging Buttons. Kent, Ill.: Crow. =20 1944. Softbound, 5 3/4 X 8 3/4, pp 44. Illus. Davis, Edward H. The Layfayette Presentation Button 1824. Waterbury,=20 Conn.: Mattatuck Historical Society. 1951. Wrappers, 6 X 9, pp=20 24. Illus. Leonardson, S.E. Button Value List. Decatur, Ind.: Leonardson. 1943.=20 Softbound, 4 =BD X 6, pp 36. No Illus. Nagle, Esther S. Button Fables, Featuring Small Story and Fable Buttons.= =20 n.p., n.d. [Pottstown, PA: by the author] [1948] Softbound,=20 loose-leaf, pp 16. Opre, Lula. The Dictionary Plus of Button Terms. n.p., n.d. Softbound,= =20 5 =BD X 8 1/4, pp 39. Parker, C.K. 1948 Price List of Over 1600 Picture Buttons. Marshfield,=20 Mass.: by the author. Softbound, 5 X 8, pp 32. Sicerbox, Earl H. How to Make and Sell Button Jewelry. Wassaic, N.Y.: =20 Sicerbox. 1947. Softbound, 6 X 9, pp 14, Illus. Sprong, John G. Buttons, A Brief History. Flemington, N.J.: Turntable=20 Junction. 1971. Softbound, 5 =BD X 8 3/4, pp 36. Illus. RELATED TOPICS anon. The Field Hunting Year Book and Point-To-Point Record. Published=20 annually since 1934-35. London: The Field. Hardbound, 8 vo. Illus. Flower, Margaret. Jewellery, 1837-1901. N.Y.: Walker. 1968. =20 Hardbound, 5 X 7 =BD, pp 64. Illus. Gerlach, Martin, Editor. Primative and Folk Jewelry. N.Y.: Dover. =20 Softbound, 8 =BD X 11 =BD, pp xi, 219, xvi. Illus. Hertslet, Austin, and Titman, George A., Editors. Dress and Insignia=20 Worn at Court. London: Harrison & Sons. 1929. Cloth, 6 =BD X 9=20 =BD, pp ix, 246. Illus. Hunt, W. Ben. Indian Silversmithing. N.Y.: Collier: Macmillan. 1960.= =20 Softbound, 8 X 11, pp 160. Illus. King, Dale Stuart. Indian Silver Volume Two. Tuscon, AR: by the=20 author. 1976. Hardbound, 6 X 9, pp 202. Illus. Ludington, M. I., Lieut. Colonel, Editor. Uniforms of the Army of the=20 United States from 1774 to 1889. n.p.: Published by the=20 Quartermaster General. n.d. 3/4 morocco, 15 =BD X 16 3/4, pp 71 plus=20 44 full-page colored plates of uniforms, after H.A. Ogden. Nelson, Edward William. The Eskimo about Bering Strait. 18th Annual=20 Report of the Bureau of American Ethnology. Washington, D.C.: =20 Government Printing Office. 1899. Cloth, 7 =BD X 11 =BD, Vol. 1, pp=20 lvii, 518. Illus. Titman, George A., Editor. Dress and Insignia Worn at Court. London: =20 Harrison & Sons. 1937. Cloth, 6 =BD X 9 =BD, pp 18, xii, 259. Illus. Trendell, Herbert A.P., Editor. Dress Worn at His Majesty's Court. =20 Dress and Insignia Worn at His Majesty's Court. London: Harrison &=20 Sons. 1912. Cloth, 6 =BD X 9 =BD, pp 3, vi, 165. Illus. Wilkinson, Frederick. Militaria. N.Y.: Hawthorn. First American=20 Edition 1969. Cloth, 5 3/4 X 8, pp 256. Illus. PERIODICALS anon. Art in Buttons. 36 issues, published irregularly, 1906-1931. =20 Rochester, N.Y.: German-American Button Co., which was renamed Art=20 in Buttons in 1918. Berichte aus dem Knopf-Museum, Heinrich Waldes. Prague Wrschowitz. =20 Quarterly, 1916- 1920. Butonia, Internationale FAchzeitung unter Fachzeitung unter=20 Fachmannischer. Naun- Liepzig. After 1953 Bad Ems, Germany. La Giberne. Colombes (Seine), France. Monthly, February 1899-August=20 1914. Louis Fallou, editor. CATALOGS 1929, November 4. Berlin, Germany. Summlung Marc Rosenberg. =20 Beschrieben und Eingeleitet von Otto von Falke. pp 66 plus 27=20 photographic plates. 1940-1949. Ashland, Massachusetts. C.W. Brown. 95 catalogs for mail=20 auctions, lots numbering from 300 to 500. Prices realized available=20 after each sale. 1963, November 1-2. West Point, N.Y. Florence Ball Collection. O.=20 Rundle Gilbert, Auctioneer. Illustrated catalog and supplement. 1968, October 19. Hyannis, Massachusetts. Catalog of the Public Auction= =20 Liquidating the Collection of the Late Ethel M. White. Richard=20 A. Bourne Co., Auctioneers. pp 137 including 46 full page=20 photographic plates. 1970, May 28. Parke-Bernet 84. Fine Buttons, 18th, 19th, & Early 20th=20 Century, American-English-Continental. Property of a Private=20 Collector. [Mrs. Walter T. Mills] pp 57 including 4 photographic=20 plates. 1974, June 18. New York. Parke-Bernet 84. Dolls and Buttons, Various=20 Owners. 1974, August 25. Denver, Colorado. Public Auction the Entire Lifetime=20 Collection of Hildarose Swainson. Al Meyer, Auctioneer. pp 21, color=20 plates. 1978, December 15. New York: Estate of Harold A. Van Buren. Plaza Art=20 Autioneers. pp 10, no illustrations. LETA HENDRICKS =09 1/7/97 ------------------------------ nancy saputo [22,219]CSuX:wanted: suggestions for possible costume workshops Subject: WANTED: SUGGESTIONS FOR POSSIBLE COSTUME WORKSHOPS From: Nancy Saputo Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 13:02:39 -0500 In a recent thread, I mentioned a seminar in which Alicia Annas (Movement in Period Costume) and Claudia Kidwell (Paintings/Interpretation of Costume) were guest speakers. Many of you expressed an interest in these topics. I would like to be able to forward *suggestions* to Sally Queen (who presented this particular seminar in Virginia), in the hopes of enticing her to arrange another! Perhaps it could be a one to two-day workshop. Sally will work outside of the Washington, D.C. area in the future (approx. 1 year)--she currently works out of Houston/Dallas and Washington, D.C./Norfolk, with associates developing on the West Coast. Therefore, I solicit your input as to what YOU would like to see discussed. Please be specific....use circa's where needed. NO NEED TO *JAM* THE H-COSTUME LIST with these suggestions! Thanks, Nancy ------------------------------ anne reaves [8,220]CSuX:knitting conference Subject: Knitting Conference From: Anne Reaves Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 13:02:45 -0500 Last month someone posted a list of papers for an April conference in Britain on medieval knitting. I'd really appreciate information on registration. Thanks. Anne Reaves ------------------------------ alexnet - philippe alexandre [37,221]CSuX:information theatre95 - cergy-pontoise - france Subject: INFORMATION Theatre95 - Cergy-Pontoise - FRANCE From: AlexNet - Philippe ALEXANDRE Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 13:02:55 -0500 De : DRAGUTIN[SMTP:theatre95@union-fin.fr] Madame, Monsieur Nous sommes un th=E9=E2tre de cr=E9ation travaillant autour des = mythologies contemporaines, implant=E9 a Cergy-Pontoise depuis 13 ans = nous serions heureux que vous puissiez nous aider a faire conna=EEtre = notre site et par la m=EAme notre travail en informant vos lecteurs vos = adh=E9rents ou sympathisants et m=EAme envisager avec votre = =E9tablissement un =E9change de liens en copiant nos logos respectifs = sur nos sites respectifs voici nos coordonn=E9es: http://www.union-fin.fr/theatre95/ theatre95@union-fin.fr Descriptif sommaire du Th=E9=E2tre95 : th=E9=E2tre de cr=E9ations contemporaines au coeur d'une ville nouvelle = mises en perspectives avec quelques textes classiques d=E9couvertes de = jeunes auteurs r=E9flexions sur le virtuel et sur les r=E9seaux les = utopies sociales =E9changes internationaux de cr=E9ation = interdisciplinaires accueil de spectacles d=E9bats conf=E9rences sur des = th=E8mes de soci=E9t=E9 rencontres th=E9=E2trales nationales = universitaires stage formation en restant a votre disposition. Cordialement, Pour le Th=E9=E2tre95 de Cergy-Pontoise Jo=EBl Dragutin ------------------------------ End of H-COSTUME Digest - 9 Jan 1997 to 10 Jan 1997 *************************************************** automatic digest processor [18,222]CSuX:h-costume digest - 10 jan 1997 to 11 jan 1997 Subject: H-COSTUME Digest - 10 Jan 1997 to 11 Jan 1997 From: Automatic digest processor Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 00:01:10 -0500 There are 13 messages totalling 330 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. WANTED: SUGGESTIONS FOR POSSIBLE COSTUME WORKSHOPS 2. Henry Ford Museum Trip 3. movie costumes 4. Embroidery 5. armor sources ...help please... (2) 6. Resent mail.... 7. More on 16th century Gentlement (2) 8. Another accessory question - victorian erotica? 9. hellow! 10. Books on Medieval Art 11. Embroidery on list ---------------------------------------------------------------------- frances grimble [36,223]CSuX:wanted: suggestions for possible costume workshops Subject: Re: WANTED: SUGGESTIONS FOR POSSIBLE COSTUME WORKSHOPS From: Frances Grimble Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 13:24:43 -0500 Nancy Saputo wrote: > > In a recent thread, I mentioned a seminar in which Alicia Annas (Movement in > Period Costume) and Claudia Kidwell (Paintings/Interpretation of Costume) were guest speakers. > I would like to be able to forward *suggestions* to Sally Queen (who > presented this particular seminar in Virginia), in the hopes of enticing her > to arrange another! Sounds like a useful seminar in 18th-century movement for people who live on the East Coast. For those who do not, I would recommend the annual baroque dance workshop held in late July or early August by the Stanford University music department (for whatever reason, not the dance division) in Palo Alto, CA. During the 18th century, people had a high regard for movement in daily life. Much of this (such as bows, getting in and out of a carriage, and even walking) was taught by dance masters. The Stanford workshop is superb. It lasts for two weeks but you can take the first week only. It is well organized and there are separate beginning, intermediate, and advanced levels. No dance experience is required for the beginning level. At the end there is a costumed performance. Some years, entirely separate evening beginner classes are held for people not attending the workshop. The workshop is run by Wendy Hilton (who is based in New York), Linda Tomko (who is based in southern California), Paige Whitley-Baugess (who is based in North Carolina), and Thomas Baird (who is based in New York). All of them teach 18th-century dance in the areas where they live, so their classes may be accessible to members of this list. There is also a baroque dance mailing list at csmall_feuillet@indiana.edu Fran Grimble ------------------------------ kathleen songal [25,224]CSuX:henry ford museum trip Subject: Henry Ford Museum Trip From: Kathleen Songal Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 13:27:06 -0500 I visited Henry Ford Museum's Library yesterday and saw their collection of fashion plates which is outstanding. They had Lady's Monthly Museum from 1807 through 1813, also La Belle Assemblee from 1808 and 1810, and Le Beau Monde from 1808. They also had a (mouthwatering) bound copy of Lady's Magazine from 1799-1816 with fashion plates only and a bound copy of Ackermann's Repository of Art 1817-1823 with fashion plates only. I arrived early at the library and the woman on duty told me that they would photocopy what I liked if I wrote it down and flagged it with paper. Individuals are not allowed to photocopy for themselves. Three hours later I had about 50 fashion plates flagged and I presented them to her...just then her superior breezed in, looked at one book and said, "Absolutely not, I won't allow it." My pleas fell on deaf ears as I was lectured on the reasons for no photocopies. Finally she said, "I will photocopy you several." I said, "Will you do ten?" "Oh definitely not that many." What a disappointment! She photocopied seven fashion plates that came out miserably with the words in red "Property of Henry Ford Museum" sprawled lengthwise three times throughout the photocopy. Probably some of the librarian's arguments against photocopying are legitimate, what do you think? ------------------------------ rosestan@pcug.org.au[14,225]CSuX:movie costumes Subject: Re: movie costumes From: rosestan@pcug.org.au Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 13:27:46 -0500 Hi everyone, seeing as there has been all this debate about movie costume accuracy, I was wondering if anyone could tell me exactly what sort of time period the outfits worn by Ophelia in Franco Zeferelli's Hamlet are supposed to be from? I've watched the movie several times but don't have enough knowledge to pin them down to any specific time. I love the outfit, and have the patterns to make it, but being with a reenactment group that performs to the public I'd prefer that my outfits be accurate rather than a mixture of history and fantasy :). Thanks in advance for your help, Heather S. ------------------------------ northshield folk [37,226]CSuX:embroidery Subject: Embroidery From: Northshield Folk Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 13:28:22 -0500 S->There have been over the lifetime of this list a number of discussions of S->embroidery, and while I think they are entirely appropriate to this list, S->perhaps it would also be appropriate to have another forum for discussion S->of historical embroidery, which would enable more technical discussion and S->discussion of non-costuming related embroidery. I know there are lists S->which discuss embroidery, but I feel historical embroidery is different, S->and I find endless discussion on where to get such and such a cross stitch S->kit rather boring. S->I would volunteer to run such a list, but I don't have the technical S->resources. Is there anyone out there who does, and who would be interested S->in running such a list? And how much interest would there be for it? S->Sarah S->(who secretly views costume as merely a vehicle for embroidery) I see this as a part of historic costume, decoration, etc. are components of the whole, why not discuss them here. I do not see it clogging the page and those with no interest can choose to delete. Nancy Laughlin - Foust shadewescompany@on-ramp.com Glory,Magesty,Unity Warriors of the Northshield and the Known World ------------------------------ william b. birner [26,227]CSuX:armor sources ...help please... Subject: Re: armor sources ...help please... From: "William B. Birner" Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 13:28:30 -0500 At 01:00 PM 1/10/97 -0500, ches wrote: >Have you given any thought to leather or denim boiled in leather? It >is a very period method and very cheap. I belong to an organization >that is looked down on because we are usually made up of poor folks >that look for alternative ways to make armor and weapons. Amtgard. I >can post your question to two of the mailing lists online if you >wish. Be ready for about 100 responses. There are several individuals >that do this type of work for the cost of materials and or trade. So >if you want to reword your missive geared to trade of some sort you >can let me know. Leather can be formed to the person's body or any >style once you have boiled it in wax. Gotta do it fast before it >sets. If you can find no one I can retype an article that describes >the process and send it to you privately for future work. > >Ciao >Ches Hey, if you're gonna retype I sure would love a copy. I expect to do a Mardi Gras theme with armour in the next year or two and this sounds perfect. Our results need to look good for a weekend of wear and then are usually hung on display mannekins, the wall, or in closets. If there is any way to post this... If you need to e-mail me= [wbbirner@ix.netcom.com] ------------------------------ margo anderson [12,228]CSuX:resent mail.... Subject: Resent mail.... From: Margo Anderson Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 13:28:41 -0500 In a web search for costume books, I ran across several mentions of a book called "The Annotated Arnold" which seems to be a discussion of the errors in Janet Arnold's Patterns of Fashion series. Some posters felt that the author had an ax to grind, as was my impression when I met him some years ago. I would like the list member's opinion on this book. Does a copy of it belong on my costume bookshelf, or is it just a case of sour grapes? Margo Anderson ------------------------------ margaret rae carignan [8,229]CSuX:more on 16th century gentlement Subject: Re: More on 16th century Gentlement From: Margaret Rae Carignan Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 13:29:16 -0500 Are more than a pair of eyelets visible on the back neck of this doublet/jerkin? Could they just be the pair usually used to tie on the supportasse? Meg/Francesca ------------------------------ sharon and/or mikie [31,230]CSuX:another accessory question - victorian erotica? Subject: Another accessory question - victorian erotica? From: Sharon and/or Mikie Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 13:29:29 -0500 >Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 01:36:53 PST >Reply-To: Venus Envy >Sender: Historic Costume List >From: Venus Envy >Subject: Another accessory question - victorian erotica? >To: Multiple recipients of list H-COSTUME > > >I have a friend writing a period piece who's come to me for >costuming advice in the past who asked me today if I could recommend >Victorian erotic novels so she could get a feel for the seamy and >unsaid... I haven't a clue, but I figured a few out here might know.. > >thanks! >heather meadows >goddess@wonderland.com > on this same note, I have a friend looking for information on pornography in the Victorian era. Any sources at all? Sharon ***************************** * * * DON'T MESS WITH TECHIES - * * * * THEY ALL CARRY KNIVES * * * ***************************** ------------------------------ ches [21,231]CSuX:armor sources ...help please... Subject: Re: armor sources ...help please... From: ches Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 13:29:38 -0500 This is a correction of my previous post Sorry about that ...... Leather or denim boiled in WAX. Ciao Ches Member - HTML Writer's Guild ---------- : From: ches : To: Multiple recipients of list H-COSTUME : Subject: Re: armor sources ...help please... : Date: Friday, January 10, 1997 12:00 PM : : Have you given any thought to leather or denim boiled in leather? ------------------------------ rainbow greenwood [25,232]CSuX:more on 16th century gentlement Subject: Re: More on 16th century Gentlement From: Rainbow Greenwood Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 13:29:43 -0500 Actually, there is only a single spot that looks like a hole, but the post yesterday about the neck of a forn being cut out of the picture and the hole potentially just being a white speck may be right. The neck is fairly high, and the lace trim follows around the top of the neck, so maybe a smaller ruff would leave this exposed and not need a supportasse? The picture is black and white and not a full page, so it's frustrating to want the details that just aren't there. I've been squinting at it and looking for more clues, but mostly I'm just finding out that I can't see it well enough. Maybe another source has a color picture, or a larger one. Rainbow On Fri, 10 Jan 1997, Margaret Rae Carignan wrote: > Are more than a pair of eyelets visible on the back neck of this > doublet/jerkin? Could they just be the pair usually used to tie on the > supportasse? > > Meg/Francesca > > ------------------------------ tetsuya takahashi [13,233]CSuX:hellow! Subject: hellow! From: Tetsuya Takahashi Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 13:29:50 -0500 Hellow! My name is Tetsuya Takahashi from Japan. I like a trailing cloak.I like a feeling when I wrap up my body. In Japan,It is too hard to get a cloak.Because There is no cloak-shop in Japan.But There is many cloak-maker home page in web! I am very suprised. I am looking for cloak-freak(?).If you don't mind,Please discuss about it. ------------------------------ maggie percival [23,234]CSuX:books on medieval art Subject: Books on Medieval Art From: Maggie Percival Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 13:29:57 -0500 > >Has anyone read, or have in their possession any books displaying original >artwork that are good for studying medieval clothing in western Europe (ca >1100-1500). > >The pictures should be detailed, since there's this artist who's going to >draw pictures from them for a web-page on medieval costume. Hanna, the best answer to this question is really to keep your eyes open whenever you go into a book shop. There are loads of good books which have plenty of illustrations taken from Books of Hours and Medieval Manuscripts. It's also a good idea to look at books on specific areas of Medieval History. I have one on Medieval gardens which I acquired due to the fact that it had plenty of illustrations from Medieval sources showing costume which I had not seen before - not because I was particularly interested in Medieval gardens. Clothing in Western Europe 1100 - 1500 is a vast area of interest and without being more specific it is difficult to make any recommendations. -- Maggie Percival ------------------------------ kat hargus [10,235]CSuX:embroidery on list Subject: Embroidery on list From: Kat Hargus Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 13:30:08 -0500 Please don't take the Opus Anglicanum discussion off list unless you include me, too! I enjoy reading the embroidery and trim posts because that is a major part of what makes a really great costume stand out from a good one. ------------------------------ End of H-COSTUME Digest - 10 Jan 1997 to 11 Jan 1997 **************************************************** automatic digest processor [16,236]CSuX:h-costume digest - 11 jan 1997 to 12 jan 1997 Subject: H-COSTUME Digest - 11 Jan 1997 to 12 Jan 1997 From: Automatic digest processor Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 00:01:16 -0500 There are 11 messages totalling 288 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. What should I make with this lace? 2. Henry Ford Museum Trip (3) 3. Resent mail.... 4. 17th cen Mourning Dress 5. H-COSTUME Digest - 10 Jan 1997 to 11 Jan 1997 6. copper dyeing 7. Thank you! 8. Books on Medieval Art 9. Finely pleated silk fabric ---------------------------------------------------------------------- margo anderson [38,237]CSuX:what should i make with this lace? Subject: What should I make with this lace? From: Margo Anderson Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 19:25:19 -0500 I have two batches of lace I need ideas for recycling.. The first is black Venise lace which has been embellished with black sequins. I have scads of it, mostly floral applique pieces. I also have 20 yards of black silky tassel fringe I can use with it. I'm thinking of putting it on either a black or garnet red ground, and making a Mae West/Miss Kitty sort of number, possibly 1880's but more likely 1900's. Authenticity is not a huge concern here, this would be a "for fun" costume, but I would like to know if they used this type of lace at the time. Basically, I'd like a gown that makes me look as if I run the fanciest House in town. A more difficult problem is the lace from my wedding dress, also Venise lace. I have lots of floral and butterfly shaped appliques, about 8 yards of narrow edging, and 2 1/2 yards of 4" banding. All of this lace has been hand beaded with pearls, crystals, and silver rocailles. The rocailles have tarnished black. I want to use this lace on something, having spent six months of my life beading it. But what can I make that won't look too "wedding-y"? I don't really care what period, although something Edwardian might be nice, or 1920's-30's, or maybe 18th century..... I'm tall, size 24, and "winter" coloring (black (greying) hair, blue eyes, light skin). Is there anything I can do about the tarnishing? Someone said that soaking rocailles in bleach will remove tarnish, but in this case it seems that might destroy the lace. I've thought of dying the lace, but I don't think the pearls will go deeper than pastel...maybe a steel grey color? And put it on purple, or dark blue? Any suggestions? Margo Anderson ------------------------------ frances grimble [18,238]CSuX:henry ford museum trip Subject: Re: Henry Ford Museum Trip From: Frances Grimble Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 19:35:34 -0500 > Probably some of the librarian's arguments against photocopying are > legitimate, what do you think? Photocopying exposes the colors and paper to a very bright light, which causes fading. They could easily be damaged by handling, and the spine of a book can be broken by placing it on the machine. Photocopying doesn't produce very good copies and if a lot of people want them, it could cause significant unpaid work for the museum or library. It would be preferable to scan or photograph period illustrations _once_ for offset printing in a book. If the original is damaged at least thousands of high-quality copies have been made. But of course, somebody has to fund the print run. Fran Grimble ------------------------------ kathleen songal [19,239]CSuX:henry ford museum trip Subject: Henry Ford Museum Trip From: Kathleen Songal Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 19:35:51 -0500 Fran wrote: >Photocopying doesn't produce very good copies For the most part I agree with your statements, but I take issue with the quality of the photocopy. Some photocopy machines can duplicate beautifully, even enhancing certain details that were not as pronounced in the original. > >could cause significant unpaid work for the museum or library. Agreed. But this museum charges 25cents a copy and the work is done by a page who is paid minimum wage. Kathy Songal asongal@wincom.net ------------------------------ gwyn carnegie [31,240]CSuX:resent mail.... Subject: Re: Resent mail.... From: Gwyn Carnegie Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 19:35:57 -0500 At 01:28 PM 1/11/97 -0500, Margo Anderson wrote: >In a web search for costume books, I ran across several mentions of a book >called "The Annotated Arnold" which seems to be a discussion of the errors >in Janet Arnold's Patterns of Fashion series. Some posters felt that the >author had an ax to grind, as was my impression when I met him some years ago. IMHO, the author does have a point to make about the problems with some of Arnold's patterns. If you spend much time with the patterns as given in Arnold and use them exactly as they are shown- I think you will be dissapointed. I have to admire Trump for this effort. It takes a lot of guts to critisize an author such as her. Trump simply points out the problems with these items in hopes to help other people avoid mistakes. I think that if you view "The Annotated Arnold" in this light you would be correct. (one foot firmly on my soapbox) As a widely available source, Arnold seems to have become "gospel" for aspiring students; and in some cases, the only sources used by many people hoping to produce perfectly period garments. A favorite quote of mine is "Beware of the scholar of one book", which I believe is what is happening with Arnold. I know that many people will dissagree with me on this issue and I'm very curious as how other people see this situation. Cheers, Gwyn Carnegie- (owner of one big soapbox ;-P) ------------------------------ lukelep@neca.com[12,241]CSuX:17th cen mourning dress Subject: 17th cen Mourning Dress From: lukelep@neca.com Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 19:36:03 -0500 Hi Folks! Is there anyone out there that knows of any books covering 17th century mourning costume? It is a topic I have never looked into, so any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance! Luke ------------------------------ kat hargus [17,242]CSuX:embroidery on list Subject: Embroidery on list From: Kat Hargus Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 13:30:08 -0500 Please don't take the Opus Anglicanum discussion off list unless you include me, too! I enjoy reading the embroidery and trim posts because = that is a major part of what makes a really great costume stand out from a = good one. ----------------------------- Please include me in this discussion as well....it is always good to = learn new things and having done needlework for a number of years I am = especially interesed in this Louise Sugar ------------------------------ kat hargus [10,243]CSuX:copper dyeing Subject: copper dyeing From: Kat Hargus Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 19:36:47 -0500 I have recently received a large quantity of copper. I have a note from somewhere that copper in a solution of either vinegar or amonia will produce a dye that will color cotton or wool a deep blue green and that when rinced in vinegar will turn copper patina green. Does any one have any suggestions on this project? Also what areas would have had access to copper to have dyed with it? I believe there are copper mines in northern Turkey. ------------------------------ tetsuya takahashi [14,244]CSuX:thank you! Subject: Thank you! From: Tetsuya Takahashi Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 19:36:55 -0500 Thank you for many responce I had maked a half-circle cloak by a blanket! But I can't get exactory comfortable. Bacause It is not fitted my shoulder and not closed on my front.So I bought a trailing cloak from online shop. It is very comfortable! By the way Do you know Texas body hangings? I heared "It have many good cloak!". Please talk about it. ------------------------------ northshield folk [34,245]CSuX:books on medieval art Subject: Books on Medieval Art From: Northshield Folk Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 19:37:12 -0500 MA>> MA>>Has anyone read, or have in their possession any books displaying original MA>>artwork that are good for studying medieval clothing in western Europe (ca MA>>1100-1500). MA>have plenty of illustrations taken from Books of Hours and Medieval MA>Manuscripts. It's also a good idea to look at books on specific areas MA>of Medieval History. I have one on Medieval gardens which I acquired MA>due to the fact that it had plenty of illustrations from Medieval MA>sources showing costume which I had not seen before - not because I was MA>particularly interested in Medieval gardens. Clothing in Western Europe MA>1100 - 1500 is a vast area of interest and without being more specific MA>it is difficult to make any recommendations. MA>Maggie Percival Another source for some examples of clothing (and they are from manuscripts and books of hours ) is on the web. Http://www.bnf.fr This is one of the museums in France that has thousands of on line manuscripts and many full page illutrations. Nancy Laughlin-Foust shadewescompany@on-ramp.com Glory,Magesty,Unity Warriors of the Northshield and the Known World ------------------------------ roxann barber [15,246]CSuX:henry ford museum trip Subject: Re: Henry Ford Museum Trip From: Roxann Barber Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 19:37:32 -0500 Kathleen Songal wrote: > > I visited Henry Ford Museum's Library ........................ > I had about 50 fashion plates flagged and I presented them to >her...just then her superior breezed in, looked at one book and said, "Absolutely not,I won't allow it." ................. I was lectured on the reasons for no photocopies. .................... She photocopied seven fashion plates that came out miserably with the words in red "Property of Henry Ford Museum" sprawled lengthwise three times throughout the photocopy. Probably some of the librarian's arguments against photocopying are legitimate, what do you think? I would like to know others opinions on this incident also. If photcopying degrades the original, one would think that it would be best to have whatever photocopying is done be of good quality, rather than an unusable copy. What would be the reason for the library having their name printed in the middle of the pictures? Roxy Barber ------------------------------ carol kocian [33,247]CSuX:finely pleated silk fabric Subject: Finely pleated silk fabric From: Carol Kocian Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 19:37:39 -0500 It's been a bit since we talked about finely pleated silk fabric, but here's a source for it: McLemore Interiors has a silk fabric that is permanently pleated (and must be dry cleaned). The designer is internationally known and has a variety of beautiful fabrics in her line. This silk can be used for interiors but has also been used quite successfully for elegant gowns, including wedding gowns. I am not sure that it looks like Fortuny's pleated silk because I've never seen it, but from the description, it sounds like it very well may. The silk in question, comes in a variety of colors, and with the pleats, is 53" wide. The colors available are rust, gray, purple, dark smokey blue, pumpkin, sage, black, white, off-white, ecru, beige, and golden tan. If you are interested, please feel free to contact Shiela McLemore for additional information. She sells finer fabrics by mail order, at a discount, and for orders over $100 shipped within the continental U.S., She pays the shipping. Sheila McLemore McLemore Interiors 119 Tower Place Ridgway, Colorado 81432-9443 Phone/Fax: (970) 626-4213 -Carol ------------------------------ End of H-COSTUME Digest - 11 Jan 1997 to 12 Jan 1997 **************************************************** automatic digest processor [26,248]CSuX:h-costume digest - 12 jan 1997 to 13 jan 1997 Subject: H-COSTUME Digest - 12 Jan 1997 to 13 Jan 1997 From: Automatic digest processor Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 00:02:29 -0500 There are 28 messages totalling 1040 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Resent mail.... 2. Henry Ford Museum Trip (6) 3. 18th century work clothing 4. copper dyeing 5. Annotated Arnold (3) 6. Simple Cloak Pattern 7. Baroque Dance 8. Mascarade Balls 9. Victorian Erotica 10. Ivanhoe 11. about a cloak I think 12. photocopying 13. (Fwd) Viking Resource URL 14. Arnold 15. Janet Arnold (3) 16. Buckrahm?: No specific period. 17. Embroidery 18. LECTURE IN FAYETTEVILLE AR 19. Pattern Review ---------------------------------------------------------------------- maggie pierce [51,249]CSuX:resent mail.... Subject: Re: Resent mail.... From: Maggie Pierce Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 09:47:18 -0500 In a message dated 97-01-12 20:01:35 EST, you write: I agree a good deal. There are some errors in Patterns of Fashion, but this doesn't make Janet Arnold a suspect source. You need to be a relatively sophisticated historic costumer, I think, to make the best use of the book. The venetians, for example, say they are for a 54" waist. I made them up exactly as patterned (no changes or adjustments) and they fit my man's 45" waist perfectly. On the other hand, they were fine as is. I think the numbers must have been transoposed somewhere in the editorial process and no one ever caught it. Yuo have to remember that people were buried in some of these clothes, and others were not beautifully preserved, and gravity and time are not our friend. Arnold is giving us patterns as well as she can (and she is very good) that will result in the clothes they way they were *when she examined them*, not necesarily when they were new. And it is, indeed, way too easy to find a Bible for someothing and look no further Janet Arnold opened up a whole new vista for a lot of us (as well as openning up a lot of seams!) for which I am disgustingly grateful, but the clothes in her book are not the only clothes people wore. It is not a beginner's book. And yes indeed, beware of anything with only one source. The foregoing is, of course, my own opinion. I seldom express anyone's opinions but mine own. I am not for a moment saying not to use Patterns of Fashion. Mine is falling apart and threadbare, but so are the others on that shelf :) Maggie Countess of Southampton Clara the Cheerful Campfollower Mairghred-Ros FitzGarret of Desmond, OL (Caid) << IMHO, the author does have a point to make about the problems with some of Arnold's patterns. If you spend much time with the patterns as given in Arnold and use them exactly as they are shown- I think you will be dissapointed. I have to admire Trump for this effort. It takes a lot of guts to critisize an author such as her. Trump simply points out the problems with these items in hopes to help other people avoid mistakes. I think that if you view "The Annotated Arnold" in this light you would be correct. (one foot firmly on my soapbox) As a widely available source, Arnold seems to have become "gospel" for aspiring students; and in some cases, the only sources used by many people hoping to produce perfectly period garments. A favorite quote of mine is "Beware of the scholar of one book", which I believe is what is happening with Arnold >> ------------------------------ frances grimble [41,250]CSuX:henry ford museum trip Subject: Re: Henry Ford Museum Trip From: Frances Grimble Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 09:47:30 -0500 Kathleen Songal wrote: > > Fran wrote: > > >Photocopying doesn't produce very good copies > > For the most part I agree with your statements, but I take issue with the > quality of the photocopy. Some photocopy machines can duplicate > beautifully, even enhancing certain details that were not as pronounced in > the original. Well . . . photocopying has not yet gained widespread acceptance for professional book publication, due to its quality. Though it's improving. > > > >could cause significant unpaid work for the museum or library. > > Agreed. But this museum charges 25cents a copy and the work is done by a > page who is paid minimum wage. Just because a garment or publication is historic, does not mean it is public property. The museum or person who owns it may not deal with it the way you would, to your benefit, or even in a sensible manner. But that's their right. Reminds me of a discussion I had with my attorney on reprinting borrowed materials. It's not OK to reprint a copy of a publication that belongs to someone else without their explicit permission. Even if the material is firmly out of copyright and the person who owns the physical copy is by no means a copyright owner. Because, the physical material is proprietary to the owner. Maybe the museum plans to maybe, someday, reprint the plates themselves and so doesn't want other people to have a lot of copies? Might explain why they stamped stuff in red in all over your copies. Fran Grimble ------------------------------ cathy johhnson [12,251]CSuX:18th century work clothing Subject: 18th century work clothing From: Cathy Johhnson Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 09:51:28 -0500 I'm working on a book on everyday clothing, particularly on the frontier, and enjoy finding intriguing anomalies--women without stays, Woodmason's quotes about young women pinning their chemises and petticoats tightly to show their curves, Schoolcraft's "abundantly dirty and greasy" backwoods families, whites dressing Indian-style and vice-versa. Anyone have a tidbit? Cathy Johnson graphicart@epsi.net ------------------------------ julie adams [11,252]CSuX:copper dyeing Subject: Re: copper dyeing From: Julie Adams Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 09:51:40 -0500 >Also what areas would have had access to >copper to have dyed with it? In what period are you trying to do? I would think copper would be available to most European and Asian countries even if they didn't have natural deposits. They had extensive trade routes, even in classical times. Julie ------------------------------ margo anderson [39,253]CSuX:annotated arnold Subject: Annotated Arnold From: Margo Anderson Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 09:51:46 -0500 At 07:35 PM 1/12/97 -0500, you wrote: >As a widely available source, Arnold seems to have become "gospel" for >aspiring students; and in some cases, the only sources used by many >people hoping to produce perfectly period garments. A favorite quote of >mine is "Beware of the scholar of one book", which I believe is what is >happening with Arnold. >I agree that this is happening. I've certainly run into the "Arnoldies". I once posted a response on a sewing newsgroup to someone who was looking for beginner level advice on renaissance faire costume, suggesting that she try the Winter/Savoy book (which certainly has its drawbacks, but was ideal for her purposes) only to be jumped on by several people who suggested that I was doing her a grave disservice by not recommending Arnold and Alcega. My take was that Arnold would have been completely intimidating. I frequently encounter people who tell me that they took a pattern from Arnold that seemed to have the right measurements, and that it didn't fit them! As if all you need to make a period garment fit is bust/waist/hips, and there are no variations in body types, let alone the huge differences in nutrition, exercize, and childhood corseting that make our bodies so different today. Sure, Arnold is a great reference, but it never seems to occur to these people that they should start with a sloper that fits them, and then amend it to the cutting lines shown in Arnold. They seem to feel that it is somehow more "pure" to have taken their patterns directly from the book. I understand that there are errors in her books. How could there not be, considering the conditions under which delicate textiles have to be examined? Some people have suggested that she doesn't sew herself, and has made substantial errors in construction due to this lack. Does anyone have an opinion? Is this really a problem, or could it be that sewing is a language that she reads, but does not speak? Margo Anderson ------------------------------ j.g. [110,254]CSuX:simple cloak pattern Subject: Simple Cloak Pattern From: "J.G." Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 09:51:53 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------7E183E0C49B1 Hello all: I dont know if this will work.. I have made a pattern for a cloak the way I make my cloaks. (sending it as an attachment hope you get it entact) I realize for most of you this would be too simple but i would like your oppinions on not only my pattern but my directions... please keep in mind i do not put exact measurements because everyone has their own stlye and preference and i make each one of mine different... this is a pattern for a pretty full cloak. yet not a compleat circle one... I used to make those from a pattern and they never turned out. thank you for your opinions and comments in advance i know you all will be objective with out being crewl :) have a good day... Shae Felan@cris.net PS. the attachemnt was saved in Windows 95 Micrografix windows draw it is a .DRW file (incase you needed that information :) Directions: measure from top of your shoulders close to your neck to the floor (or as long as you want the cloak) take that number and double it. this is how long you need your material, you will need 60 inch material. fold the material in half so it is 30 inches wide then fold its length in half. measure your neck all the way around take that number and ... looking at the top right of the pattern start from the right corner of the material and measure from the edge to the left across the top. now this is where you start to cut the edge and the neck. the curve for the neck is only about 2 inches down from the right corner. cut the neck and the left side and the bottom... cutting through all 4 peices af fabric. Now carefully take the 2 middle peices of fabric on the left edge of the cloak and pin them all the way down, neck to the floor. now this is your back seem. sew it together you are almost done... cutting out the hood: the size of your neck (you measured it above) is the size of your neck/collar (bottom of the hood) you decide how tall and deep you want your hood... now cut it out and sew the back together. Attaching the hood: line up the back seems for the cloak and the hood and pin them together with right sides together now pin the corners of the hood to the corners of the cloak now pleat all the fabric in between (use PINS) this way you dont pleat from one side and get it all out of wack!! :) Now sew the hood and cloak together and you have a cloak... Now for any finishing touches you would like to add... hems.. trim... clasps... what ever you like... be creative Have fun with it because sewing is a relaxing enjoyable spart :) --------------7E183E0C49B1 Af8CBAMCAAIAAiEFABUTV2luZG93cyBEcmF3IERyYXdpbmcABAH/A/8AMxUEJAAN/wUAkAH/ BAADAgESVGltZXMgTmV3IFJvbWFuAACKESP/BADKBgAASIoIigIKAAACEAAAAhngAQEYBwga AAAQABAAAQAEFhAAEAAMG/EPoRT/CAAQMQL/BwABAAEAB/8DABQ1TO//BACAPwH/AwAQ/wMA Af8DAAQFAAAZAAYXTGF5ZXIxAhH/Av8CHQAAAjj/Av9VBwaA9wDmAPcA5gA7DO4Q/xQAvPQI EP8UAID/BACARAv/EwBVBwaA+g7LAfoOywH6Dp8T/xYA1BH/FACA/wQAgP8VAFUHGSBFDmcQ RQ5nEAIPkhGWA/8SAO6d/wYAEP8NAP8D//8FAAUAmf8SAC0fAQAC/wMABABAAKAAAf8HAAEA AAcAjgCzAG7/Af8AAJMAs/8DABX/BQAVIgQSAG7/Af8AACUBswAlAQAABABGb2xkECQEAAj/ DQBVBxkAygjYCRUH2Al/CosK/xQA+rT/BgAQ/w0A/wP//xoALR8BAAL/AwAEAEAAoAAB/wcA AQAABwCOALMAS/4AALUBs/8DAB7/BQAeIgQbAEv+AABqA7MAagMAAA0AQ2xvYWsgUGF0dGVy bhAkBAAI/w0AVQcZINANYQbQDWEGiw49DoYD/xIAQrD/BgAQ/w0A/wP//wUABADvA/8RAC0f AQAC/wMABABAAKAAAf8HAAEAAAcAjgCzABP8AADuA7P/AwAw/wUAMCIELQAT/AAA2wezANsH AAAfAGZyb20geW91ciBuZWNrIHRvIHRoZSBmbG9vciBYIDIQJAQACP8NAFUHGQCsCDoR3gU6 EXoL7RH/FABisP8GABD/DQD/A///GgAtHwEAAv8DAAQAQACgAAH/BwABAAAHAI4AswAy/QAA zgKz/wMAJ/8FACciBCQAMv0AAJwFswCcBQAAFgA2MCJ3aWRlIGZvbGRlZCBpbiBoYWxmECQE AAj/DQBVBxkASAM8ALYCPADbA+//FQDitP8GABD/DQD/A///GgAtHwEAAv8DAAQAQACgAAH/ BwABAAAHAI4AswBu/wH/AACTALP/AwAV/wUAFSIEEgBu/wH/AAAlAbMAJQEAAAQARm9sZBAk BAAI/w0AVQcZIDAOSQMwDkkD5g5wBIED/xIAfgH/BgAQ/w0A/wP//wQAQAIAk/8SAC0fAQBC /wMABABAAKAAAf8HAAH/BACPALIAbf8B/wAAkgCz/wMAFf8FABUiBBIAbf8B/wAAJQGyACUB AAAEAEZvbGQQJAQACP8NAFUHBoAzBMIDMwTCA/IEGgb/FAC/AKj9/xQAgP8EAIAAAFgC/xEA VQcGgN0BuwPdAbsD8gS7A/8UABUD/xYAgP8EAID/FQBVBwaA1gG7A9YBuwPWAQ4G/xYAUwL/ FACA/wQAgP8VAFUHBoDWARUG1gEVBjgEFQb/FABiAv8WAID/BACA/xUAVQcZAAwDOARaAjgE vgPrBP8UAHao/wYAEP8NAP8D//8aAC0fAQAC/wMABABAAKAAAf8HAAEAAAcAjgCzAE7/Af8A ALIAs/8DABX/BQAVIgQSAE7/Af8AAGQBswBkAQAABABIb29kECQEAAj/DQBVBxkgewGqBHsB qgTKATwFewP/EgBCAv8GABD/DQD/A///BQACAEn/EgAtHwEAAv8DAAQAGwBDAAH/BwABAAAD ADwATAC4/wH/AABIAEz/AwAW/wUAFiIEEwC4/wH/AACQAEwAkP8DAAUARnJvbnQQJAQACP8N AFUHGSBoBKwEaASsBPYEdAWhAv8SAHYL/wYAEP8NAP8D//8FACQAVv8SAC0fAQAC/wMABAAb AEMAAf8HAAEAAAMAPABMAKT/Af8AAFwATP8DABX/BQAVIgQSAKT/Af8AALgATAC4/wMABABC QUNLECQEAAj/DQBVBxkAKgNmA/UCZgNgA7ID/xQAqhb/BgAQ/w0A/wP//xoALR8BAAL/AwAE ABsAQwAB/wcAAQAAAwA8AEwAy/8B/wAANgBM/wMAFP8FABQiBBEAy/8B/wAAawBMAGv/AwAD AFRvcBAkBAAI/w0AVQcZACoDwAPuAsADZwMMBP8UAKKH/wYAEP8NAP8D//8aAC0fAQAC/wMA BAAbAEMAAf8HAAEAAAMAPABMAMT/Af8AAD0ATP8DABX/BQAVIgQSAMT/Af8AAHkATAB5/wMA BABGb2xkECQEAAj/DQBVBxkA7gIYBksCGAaRA2QG/xQAVvD/BgAQ/w0A/wP//xoALR8BAAL/ AwAEABsAQwAB/wcAAQAAAwA8AEwAXf8B/wAAowBM/wMAHP8FABwiBBkAXf8B/wAARgFMAEYB AAALAE5lY2svQ29sbGFyECQEAAj/DQBVBxkgSQ3AAEkNwADlDS0Bhw3/EgBS8f8GABD/DQD/ A///BQBYABL/EgAtHwEAAv8DAAQAGwBDAAH/BwABAAADADwATAC5/wH/AABGAEz/AwAV/wUA FSIEEgC5/wH/AACNAEwAjf8DAAQATmVjaxAkBAAI/w0AVQcGgDwMQAA8DEAAqAzl/xUAbABb /wH//xQAgP8EAIAAAKX/EgBVBwaA/g7sAP4O7AD+DuAB/xYA9P8VAID/BACA/xUAVQcAgKgM QwCoDEMA/g70/x4AVgKw/wMAUP8B/6wEsP8EAID/BACA/xUANDMB/wMAe0EyQzQ5QTgwLTUz MUMtMTFDRS1CRUNGLf8EMEMwMzQyQjU2ff8KAIU0Af8DAAH/CQDwP/8NAFCJwP8OANw//wQA gBKjQP8WAPA/Av8LAP8D//8DAID/BgDoCAAAhBIAANoHAACEEgAAeP8DAPD/AwB4/wMABGFE AAAAVQcBgLAEOhGwBDoRvgUMEv8UAED/A/8A/p0I/xAAgP8aACAGAABpAHj/AwB4ADUADgE1 AA4BngB4AJ4AeADS/wMAaQA0MwH/AwB7QTJDNDlBODAtNTMxQy0xMUNFLUJFQ0Yt/wQwQzAz NDJCNTZ9/woAhTQB/wMAAf8DABZC1eTM/wH/779mNwaqVQVpv873e9RsrrRAdYji5mGYfD/T mTpI0/8B/9u/HntQg7mtuUD/FgDwPwL/CwD/A///AwCA/wYA6AgAAIQSAADaBwAAhBIAAHj/ AwDw/wMAeP8DAARhRAAAAFUHAYC4CzoRuAs6EcYMDBL/FABA/wP/AP6dCP8QAID/GgAgBg4B aACXANIAlgCd/wMAnv8DADUAlgA0AJX/AwAOAWgAVQcAgPAA7BDwAOwQ/wH/DnMT/x0ADw6G AgAAev0eHIYC/wMAgP8EAID/FQAA/g== --------------7E183E0C49B1-- ------------------------------ ed safford & carol kocian [33,255]CSuX:baroque dance Subject: Baroque Dance From: Ed Safford & Carol Kocian Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 09:52:00 -0500 Fran wrote, >Sounds like a useful seminar in 18th-century movement for people who >live on the East Coast. Actually, the Alicia Annas part of the lecture was just enough to whet the appetite for those who want to learn movement. For the Washington, DC area, the best bet is Cheryl Stafford's dance classes. Thanks to Fran, who put me in touch with Cheryl! I don't know if I posted this to the list earlier, but it's worth another note as we get close to the start date: Baroque dance classes will be starting in the Washington, DC area. We will concentrate on the late 17th thru the 18th Centuries, with technique, step vocabulary, and style for dances such as the minuet and country dances to start with. Possible progression on to the more formalized court dances for those who are interested. Classes will be taught by Cheryl Stafford, professional dancer/dance historian with 20 years experience researching, teaching and performing Early Dance. Classes will be held on Friday nights, starting at 9:00 pm, in Annandale, Virginia. The first class will be January 24th. Cost is $10.00 per person per class. No partner required. For more information and directions, call or e-mail Carol Kocian: 301-681-2624, email: or , OR Cheryl Stafford: 301-330-0072, email: <74011.2627@compuserve.com>. *^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^* This account is shared by Carol Kocian and Ed Safford. Carol can also be e-mailed at ckocian@epe.org Ed is also at esafford@sun1.wwb.noaa.gov . ------------------------------ j.g. [11,256]CSuX:mascarade balls Subject: Mascarade Balls From: "J.G." Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 09:52:20 -0500 Hello, I have a vage question please dont yell at me.. does anyone know when they started holding mascarade balls and the "history" of the "masks" were they really the "martigras/newyears eve" style masks we see today??? I have been invited to a mascarade ball from a re enactment group and I would like to know a bit more about them... any help you could give would be great thanks..... Sussan ------------------------------ chandler, sally a. [15,257]CSuX:victorian erotica Subject: Victorian Erotica From: "Chandler, Sally A." Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 09:52:43 -0500 In response to the question about Victorian novels - a quality British Sunday newspaper reported yesterday that Professor William A Cohen of the University of Maryland will today publish his book 'Sex Scandals - The Private Parts of Victorian Fiction' which puts forward the theory that 'Great Expectations' is a homosexual fantasy and other theories which would make you blush. Apparently Thackery was 'filthy, far filthier than Dickens'. Sorry this is off topic - but someone asked! Sally Ann ------------------------------ chandler, sally a. [9,258]CSuX:ivanhoe Subject: Ivanhoe From: "Chandler, Sally A." Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 09:52:52 -0500 Any British subscribers who saw Ivanhoe yesterday - have you recovered yet from seeing what the BBC calls the most authentic production ever!!!!! I enjoyed it but it made me cringe! Any comments? Sally Ann ------------------------------ greg & jocelyn house [44,259]CSuX:henry ford museum trip Subject: Re: Henry Ford Museum Trip From: Greg & Jocelyn House Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 09:54:22 -0500 Kathleen Songal wrote: >I arrived early at the library and the woman on duty told me that they would >photocopy what I liked if I wrote it down and flagged it with paper. >Individuals are not allowed to photocopy for themselves. Three hours later >I had about 50 fashion plates flagged and I presented them to her...just >then her superior breezed in, looked at one book and said, "Absolutely not, >I won't allow it." My pleas fell on deaf ears as I was lectured on the >reasons for no photocopies. Finally she said, "I will photocopy you >several." I said, "Will you do ten?" "Oh definitely not that many." > >What a disappointment! She photocopied seven fashion plates that came out >miserably with the words in red "Property of Henry Ford Museum" sprawled >lengthwise three times throughout the photocopy. > I worked at the National Library of Australia for ten years. Yes, as Frances Grimble said there are indeed good reasons for not allowing or at least restricting photocopying of old and/or rare materials. However this doesn't mean that this can't be conveyed in a pleasant and polite manner. The tone of your question makes it sound like you were lectured like a small erring school child. What does get me about this issue is that if these tomes do have such archival importance 1) why did she allow any photocopies to be made and 2) why wasn't something being done to provide access to these publications by an alternative means. It is easy to photograph items such as fashion plates and this can be done without significant impact. This only has to be done once and then you have a negative from which any number of copies can be made. Microfilming is also an option for periodicals of this nature. Often this type of material can be put onto a cd-rom which gives much better access. All of these actions mean that a precious and often fragile original can be preserved. One question about the photocopies that she did do for you: did you have to pay for these. If so while the copyright of the original items still lies with the Henry Ford Museum, the actual copy is yours. A small disclaimer on the copyright would suffice just as well without impinging upon the photocopied picture itself. This was something I had to do often when providing photographs to various members of the media (I worked in the public relations section for half my time there). Jocelyn House ------------------------------ tetsuya takahashi [48,260]CSuX:about a cloak i think Subject: about a cloak I think From: Tetsuya Takahashi Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 09:54:48 -0500 There are many kind people in this list! I am very glad! I have to send a mail for all res.but it is too many res to send it,I'm sorry....(;_;) Historical-costuming is not popler in Japan.and There is no customs that is wearing a traditional costume only for enjoying in Japan.I am surprised that H-costuming is very popler in ather country. I have a hooded circle trailing cloak made by Siobhan wear. It is colored black.and not lined.It is fitted my shoulder and covered my front.mayby you think "it is natural!" but When I wore and closed at a neck a cloak cutted by only a half circle,it was opened on my front loosely and too tighat on my shoulder.So I couldn't get satisfaction for this cloak.and I have looked for a cloak made by professional. I have ordered a cloak for another shop.this shop is "Texas body hanging" Nobody have told about bad thing. I am looking forward to arrive my cloak.(it sended on Dec 9,but not arrived!)and MY MONEY have gone a way. (;_;) I looked for a book of costume history in library. But there was no book about a history of cloak. I think a cloak is very important things on costume history. Why have a cloak been more reserched about history? If anyone knows a book of cloak,please tell me about it. There is a many type of cloak I think. (circle,kinsale,ets) I know few of type of cloak.If you don't mind,Please tell me about it. Thank you for reading a long mail. I am not native spearker for English.I'll study more harder.... Tetsuya P.S. I love feeling of cloak as I wear,rebound of drapery as I turn.....Mayby am I cloak-fetish? ------------------------------ deborah pulliam [14,261]CSuX:photocopying Subject: photocopying From: Deborah Pulliam Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 09:55:12 -0500 <> The librarian would be remiss in allowing photocopys from old books, let alone 50-some. The surprise is that the first person told you it was allowed at all. If you've ever photocopied with the cover of the copier up, you know what an amazing amount of light and heat the original is exposed to. Just imagine that scanning past a 19th century sheet of paper. One pass would be the equivalent of who knows how many hours hanging in direct sun. ------------------------------ beth + dallas bardot [31,262]CSuX:(fwd) viking resource url Subject: (Fwd) Viking Resource URL From: Beth + Dallas Bardot Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 09:55:32 -0500 Fellow Historic Costumers - I thought some of you would like this information: -Poster: priest@vassar.edu (Carolyn Priest-Dorman) Greeting from Thora Sharptooth! I am slowly putting some of my SCA writings (class pamphlets, research papers, annotated bibliographies) into web-readable format. I hadn't planned to make this public announcement yet, since I haven't put up very many articles yet. But my system administrator informs me that some of my pages are already being hit (via search engines), so I thought you folks should at least know that you have the option to visit. Thora's Viking Resource page can be found at: http://www.cs.vassar.edu/~capriest/vikresource.html Thora's Textile Resource Page will soon contain hot links; right now the only finished pages are the Viking ones. Stay tuned! This note has been copied to the Rialto; feel free to distribute it to other kingdom or special interest lists. **************************************************************************** Carolyn Priest-Dorman Thora Sharptooth priest@vassar.edu Frostahlid, Austrriki Gules, three square weaver's tablets in bend Or **************************************************************************** ------------------------------ northshield folk [26,263]CSuX:henry ford museum trip Subject: Re: Henry Ford Museum Trip From: Northshield Folk Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 10:01:36 -0500 LA>> Probably some of the librarian's arguments against photocopying are LA>> legitimate, what do you think? LA>Photocopying exposes the colors and paper to a very bright light, which LA>causes fading. They could easily be damaged by handling, and the spine LA>of a book can be broken by placing it on the machine. Photocopying LA>doesn't produce very good copies and if a lot of people want them, it LA>could cause significant unpaid work for the museum or library. LA>It would be preferable to scan or photograph period illustrations _once_ LA>for offset printing in a book. If the original is damaged at least LA>thousands of high-quality copies have been made. But of course, LA>somebody has to fund the print run. LA>Fran Grimble Another option is a camcorder, a computer and a "snappy" video card. You can capture photos from video and they turn them to photos. We have used this and it seems to work well. Nancy Laughlin-Foust shadewescompany@on-ramp.com Glory,Magesty,Unity Warriors of the Northshield and the Known World ------------------------------ mrs c s yeldham [19,264]CSuX:arnold Subject: Arnold From: Mrs C S Yeldham Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 10:24:25 -0500 I agree with Gywn, just using one source is not the best way to proceed in making costumes (or anything else). The problem in the late 16th, early 17th century is that Arnold is head and shoulders above anyone else I know working in the area, both in terms of what she has access to and published and the standards of her work. I have heard these criticisms of the scale drawings before, but I don't use them as a bible (I'm not the right size and shape anyway!) - I use the proportions as a guide. I also look at every other source I can find, especially original pictures. I would be delighted if there was someone else working in this area (actually preferably in the late 15th century now) to the same standards and with the same ability! Caroline ------------------------------ chandler, sally a. [8,265]CSuX:janet arnold Subject: Janet Arnold From: "Chandler, Sally A." Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 12:44:21 -0500 Why do you suggest that Janet Arnold doesn't sew herself? As far as I can ascertain from meeting her she's as accomplished as most of us. sally Ann Chandler ------------------------------ frances grimble [47,266]CSuX:henry ford museum trip Subject: Re: Henry Ford Museum Trip From: Frances Grimble Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 12:45:13 -0500 What does get me about this issue is that if > these tomes do have such archival importance 1) why did she allow any > photocopies to be made I was wondering that too. and 2) why wasn't something being done to provide > access to these publications by an alternative means. It is easy to > photograph items such as fashion plates and this can be done without > significant impact. This only has to be done once and then you have a > negative from which any number of copies can be made. Microfilming is also > an option for periodicals of this nature. Often this type of material can > be put onto a cd-rom which gives much better access. All of these actions > mean that a precious and often fragile original can be preserved. It would be wonderful if this institution, and all institutions owning rare and fragile resource materials, were to reproduce them by any of the safe means suggested and make them widely available for study. However, that costs significant time and money. It would be unfair to criticize the Henry Ford Museum for not having chosen to allocate their resources in this manner. Probably their response would be, "We'd love to but we don't have the funding." > > One question about the photocopies that she did do for you: did you have > to pay for these. If so while the copyright of the original items still > lies with the Henry Ford Museum, the actual copy is yours. Actually, the _physical ownership_ of the original materials, and the right to use those, lies with the Henry Ford Museum. If the copyright has expired it has expired. If another museum has copies of the same, copyright-expired materials, they have the right to publish or otherwise use _their_ physical copies. But, if the copyright had _not_ expired, no one but the copyright owner could republish, even if they owned a physical copy. If either museum were to photograph, microfilm, or otherwise reproduce the fashion plates, those photographs (etc.) would have their own, new copyrights, because they are legally new works. If the museum were to select and print an anthology of the plates, they would own the (new) copyright to the anthology--their selection and arrangement of the materials--plus any explanatory materials they wrote. Fran Grimble ------------------------------ cbecht@lmumail.lmu.edu[70,267]CSuX:henry ford museum trip Subject: Henry Ford Museum Trip From: CBecht@lmumail.lmu.edu Date: 1/11/97 1:27 PM It's too bad, Kathy, that you weren't warned beforehand that there would be a limit to photocopies; it would have helped avoid hurt feelings. 50 copies, however, is a request that would make me quail too - I wouldn't allow any from the few fashion volumes we own (1858 Godey's, 1860s Frank Leslie's), which are bulky but not sturdy... and believe me I'd be the first person in line if I let myself! Were these all from bound volumes? Then you're talking about the risk of turning the volume upside down and dealing with gravity and margin/gutter space (or not!) and the potential destruction of the whole entity, not just of the plates themselves. X 50. Or however many photocopies. Someone else mentioned alternative means - definitely YES! But... who is going to pay for them? When I worked at a large university special collections, we were happy to microfilm anything requested, as long as the client paid for both their print copy and for the negative copy to be retained by the library for future requests. Same with photography. Positive print goes to client, negative stays in library. It can get very expensive. Where I work now, in a much smaller university, we don't have the photographic/microform services on campus available to us that larger institutions do and it was a heck of a thing for us to find someone in a drivable distance who would let us handcarry the materials, watch over their filming, and do it in a responsible, high quality manner which would satisfy our preservation fears and the client's needs. VERY expensive. 7 plates would have cost you a hooey bundle. Well over a hundred dollars (this is photography only; we haven't found arrangements for microfilming yet but luckily haven't been asked). The .25 per photocopy is meant to be a partial deterrent as well as to pay for the staff time of taking the best care of the work while photocopying. And, yes, photocopies can be pretty bad from bound items when you refuse to push down on the volume. Once, while photocopying for one client who was standing beside me, he had the gall to put his hand over mine to (try to) press the volume down for a better copy! I'm sorry they didn't take better care to let you know it wasn't going to work out the way you had been led to believe; that was their big mistake. And that red ink... I've never worked anywhere that did that, how awful. The idea that they might be thinking of publishing the plates at some time is an interesting one. I hope you can still see the gowns from the copies. Cynthia I visited Henry Ford Museum's Library yesterday and saw their collection of fashion plates which is outstanding. They had Lady's Monthly Museum from 1807 through 1813, also La Belle Assemblee from 1808 and 1810, and Le Beau Monde from 1808. They also had a (mouthwatering) bound copy of Lady's Magazine from 1799-1816 with fashion plates only and a bound copy of Ackermann's Repository of Art 1817-1823 with fashion plates only. I arrived early at the library and the woman on duty told me that they would photocopy what I liked if I wrote it down and flagged it with paper. Individuals are not allowed to photocopy for themselves. Three hours later I had about 50 fashion plates flagged and I presented them to her...just then her superior breezed in, looked at one book and said, "Absolutely not, I won't allow it." My pleas fell on deaf ears as I was lectured on the reasons for no photocopies. Finally she said, "I will photocopy you several." I said, "Will you do ten?" "Oh definitely not that many." What a disappointment! She photocopied seven fashion plates that came out miserably with the words in red "Property of Henry Ford Museum" sprawled lengthwise three times throughout the photocopy. Probably some of the librarian's arguments against photocopying are legitimate, what do you think? ------------------------------ teddy [34,268]CSuX:buckrahm?: no specific period. Subject: Buckrahm?: No specific period. From: TEDDY Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 12:48:06 -0500 Finnaly I get 'round to posting a question I've been meaning to post for a while. Sorry if it's available on the archive, my web access is too slow and convoluted at present for that to be a viable option at present. Lots of reference is made to buckrahm being used to stiffen bodices and the like. All well and good but, if it's stiffened with starch/paste/glue etc. how do you clean the garment without softening or washing out the paste? Since I've discovered that my cotton velvet costumes don't suffer from a run through the washing machine, I'm a lot more willing to use that fabric than I was before. The few items I can't trust to the machine (because of rusting of metal parts or because I, foolishly, didn't pre-wash the fabric to shrink it before cutting and making up) I bit the bullet and pay to have dry cleaned - As a result, these ones don't get worn as often as I'd like. Would buckrham stand up to washing (machine or hand) or dry cleaning without losing it's stiffness?? Thanks in advance for all responses Teddy teddy1@mdx.ac.uk ====================== Bibliographical Services Dept. * If a costume's worth * Middlesex University * making, it's worth * Bounds Green Road * making well enough * London, N11 2NQ * for every-day wear. * England ====================== Tel No.(0181) 362 6405 ------------------------------ kathleen songal [22,269]CSuX:henry ford museum trip Subject: Henry Ford Museum Trip From: Kathleen Songal Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 16:54:11 -0500 Thanks to everyone who contributed their opinions to this discussion. It has helped me to understand the librarian's refusal and to look for alternate ways to obtain the copies. With regards to other options, I called my neighborhood computer sales store to find out more about how the snappy video card works (in the event I were permitted by the museum to record the fashion plates by camcorder). The computer salesman suggested another route. He thought it would be better to just photograph the plates with a 35mm camera. I don't know how well this would work or whether the museum would allow it. I also want to clear up one possible misunderstanding. I wanted the photocopies for personal study only with no plans for publication. For those interested, Henry Ford Museum is located in Dearborn, Michigan. Call 313-271-1620 and ask for the Library Archives. They will set up an appointment if you wish to visit. Kathy Songal ------------------------------ frances grimble [55,270]CSuX:annotated arnold Subject: Re: Annotated Arnold From: Frances Grimble Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 16:54:37 -0500 > >A favorite quote of > >mine is "Beware of the scholar of one book", which I believe is what is > >happening with Arnold. True, but that doesn't mean Arnold's work is bad. The fact is, there are very few patterns of original Renaissance garments and Arnold's book contains most of the ones there are. > I frequently encounter people who tell me that they took a pattern from > Arnold that seemed to have the right measurements, and that it didn't fit > them! Sure, Arnold is a great reference, but it never seems to > occur to these people that they should start with a sloper that fits them, > and then amend it to the cutting lines shown in Arnold. They seem to feel > that it is somehow more "pure" to have taken their patterns directly from > the book. On occasion I've found period patterns or antique garments that fit well without much alteration, but I'd never _expect_ it. Personally, I prefer to fit the scale pattern rather than use a sloper. I think it's easier to avoid creeping modernisms that way. And also easier to take the right style and alter it to fit, than take the right fit and drastically alter the style. But either way, pattern alterations are necessary. > > I understand that there are errors in her books. How could there not be, > considering the conditions under which delicate textiles have to be > examined? I agree. Some people have suggested that she doesn't sew herself, and has > made substantial errors in construction due to this lack. Does anyone have > an opinion? Is this really a problem, or could it be that sewing is a > language that she reads, but does not speak? I believe, from comments in her books as well as the contents of those books, that Janet Arnold received professional training in garment construction. I cannot imagine an untrained sewer writing her books, or being permitted by museums to make what may be the only pattern records of their rare items. >From what I remember of _The Annotated Arnold_, Trump's motives seem so dubious, that his book should be viewed with decided skeptism. I remember he goes through Arnold's resume, comparing it with his own point by point to prove he has more experience. This looks like open personal jealousy and competition. I cannot imagine any professional academic critiquing another academic's resume in a publication. However much the two might disagree in their theories, and even if they personally disliked each other. Fran Grimble ------------------------------ catherine kinsey [47,271]CSuX:embroidery Subject: Embroidery From: Catherine Kinsey Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 16:54:50 -0500 I'd like to ad my vote to allowing the embroidery thread to continue. It is very much a part of the costume for some eras. >>>>>>>>>>>> I will offer my two cents' worth on the topic. Over the past two years I have done a great deal of opus anglicanum work, primarily on a pseudo-reproduction piece which carries trivial statistics like 700 stitches/square inch, approximately 105,000 stitches in the piece, 1.152 km of silk embroidery thread, etc., etc., etc. Lorina Stephens --------------------------- >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Lorina, what ground did you use? and was the silk twisted or untwisted? Which did you have better results with? Can you tell I've been wanting to try this :). Another book I would recommend for researching this is the one by Schutte and Muller, I think the title is Pictorial Encyclopedia of Embroidery (I have *got* to start bringing some of my references to work :) ). I particularly like the detailed descriptions they give of grounds, threads and patterns. >From studying OA it seems to me that underside couching was used in the earlier pieces with the Or Nue technique seeming to be developed in background work on OA pieces (the St Martin's embroiders are great examples). Most early OA seems to have been done by women. While the technique did spread to the continent one account I read seemed to feel that it was still not the quality of the english embroiderers. The plagues of the 14th century desimated the ranks of skilled workers in England and the industry never really recovered. Or Nue took over as the popular work after that. (For great examples of Or Nue see photos of the Vestments for the Order of the Golden Fleece). >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> As for books, I highly recommend a publication from the Getty Foundation called _The Conservation of Embroideries and Tapestries_. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I second this! A great perspective that is not always available to those of us not in the academic field. So much for lurking, my buttons got pushed :). Cat' Kinsey ckinsey@kumc.edu ------------------------------ catherine kinsey [34,272]CSuX:annotated arnold Subject: Annotated Arnold From: Catherine Kinsey Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 16:54:55 -0500 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> At 01:28 PM 1/11/97 -0500, Margo Anderson wrote: >In a web search for costume books, I ran across several mentions of a book >called "The Annotated Arnold" which seems to be a discussion of the errors >in Janet Arnold's Patterns of Fashion series. Some posters felt that the >author had an ax to grind, as was my impression when I met him some years ago. IMHO, the author does have a point to make about the problems with someof Arnold's patterns. If you spend much time with the patterns as given inArnold and use them exactly as they are shown- I think you will be dissapointed. I have to admire Trump for this effort. It takes a lot of guts to critisize an author such as her. Trump simply points out the problems with these items in hopes to help other people avoid mistakes. I think that if you view "The AnnotatedArnold" in this light you would be correct. Cheers, Gwyn Carnegie- >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Bob Trump is an exceptionally fine late period costumer but, yes, it is very easy to get the above impression from him about Janet Arnold. He taught 5 different classes, each two hours long, in this area about the 'error's in one of her books. In one class we got him to talk about the costume he had (late Elizabethan) and he started taking it of and handing the pieces around, great learning experience! He has another book/pamphlet available on his pattern drafting method which I have found very useful, if a bit complicated. Cat' ckinsey@kumc.edu ------------------------------ cassandra mccraw [16,273]CSuX:lecture in fayetteville ar Subject: LECTURE IN FAYETTEVILLE AR From: Cassandra McCraw Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 16:55:05 -0500 Greetings, In case anyone is in Fayetteville Ar on March 6, the Anthropology Department is presenting the following lecture: "What Assyrian Women Wore When They Went to Heaven." 6 p.m. Giffels Auditorium in Old Main The lecture will be by Dr. McGuire Gibson, a scholar in the field of Mesopotamia from the Oriental Institute in Chicago. All I know about the lecture is that it is supposed to be based on exploration of several tombs of Assyrian queens. I hope to attend and will try to remember to post a review. Cassandra McCraw Special Collections Division, University of Arkansas Libraries ------------------------------ dale loberger [38,274]CSuX:pattern review Subject: Pattern Review From: Dale Loberger Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 16:55:27 -0500 Help! I need one or two more NOVICE to MODERATE skilled reviewers in Ladies SMALL sizes (approx. sizes 4 - 10) for the following pattern: 133 Backcountry Bedgown 1800 - 1840 (sizes 4-26) This pattern is extremely easy to construct, but there is some handsewing, and is suitable for day and work attire. It is much like a longer, looser-fitting shortgown, about mid-thigh length fitted with an optional drawstring high under the bust, (or lower for later periods or omit it altogether and just tie or pin it closed under an apron) and choice of neckline depths and shapes. The sleeves are its most interesting feature, they are long with ruching at the cuffs and tie up above the elbows for convenience/cleanliness while working. The strings to do this are attached at the neckline and remain hidden until needed, but are very simple to use. Also, I need one or possibly two NOVICE and/or MODERATE reviewers in Ladies LARGE (18-26) or SMALL (4 - 10) sizes for the following pattern: #815, Petticoat Bodice, 1815 - 1820 (may be used later, this is the extant date). Back button, moderately high waist, six-gore petticoat skirt with ruffle, fitted sleeveless "low stomacher" bodice. Also called a "slip." Make from cambric (lightweight polished cotton), lightweight wool flannel, or batiste (or mull, if you can find it). If you are interested and have not responded, or *did* respond but were not chosen because you requested another pattern, please let me know. Thanks ever so! Susannah Eanes, Mantua Maker and Fine Tailoring (Susan Bridges Loberger for Susannah s Heirloom, Ltd.) "We are only the trustees for those that come after us." --William Morris ------------------------------ julie adams [8,275]CSuX:janet arnold Subject: Re: Janet Arnold From: Julie Adams Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 16:55:31 -0500 I have found some niggly errors in her patterns that an experienced intellegent sewer should be able to catch. I would guess when publishing anything that its hard to get ALL the errors out. Julie ------------------------------ margo anderson [24,276]CSuX:janet arnold Subject: Re: Janet Arnold From: Margo Anderson Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 16:56:05 -0500 At 12:44 PM 1/13/97 -0500, you wrote: > >Why do you suggest that Janet Arnold doesn't sew herself? As far as I can >ascertain from meeting her she's as accomplished as most of us. > I didn't mean to say that I thought she doesn't sew; only that I had seen that theory laid forth, in this post from the SCA Rialto archives: (SNIP) Ms. Arnold is without question a wonderful conservator and curator, but a seamstress she is not. The errors she makes in "Patterns of Fashion" are numerous, easily verified, and some of these mistakes make reproducing the garments as she describes them impossible. That's where I got it! Margo ------------------------------ End of H-COSTUME Digest - 12 Jan 1997 to 13 Jan 1997 **************************************************** automatic digest processor [26,277]CSuX:h-costume digest - 13 jan 1997 to 14 jan 1997 Subject: H-COSTUME Digest - 13 Jan 1997 to 14 Jan 1997 From: Automatic digest processor Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 00:01:50 -0500 There are 25 messages totalling 781 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. copper dyeing (2) 2. Henry Ford Museum Trip 3. Embroidery (2) 4. Page update 5. Arnold (3) 6. Embroidery & Historic Textiles 7. Opus Anglicanum 8. Buckrahm?: No specific period. 9. Glass beeds and beeding (2) 10. 15th century (2) 11. embroidery 12. Milanese Armour 13. Vintage Fashions of yesterday for today 14. Arnold Debate 15. Stanford Baroque Dance Workshop 16. dyeing 17. SUBSCRIPTION CORRECTION 18. NETTLE TEXTILES, WOMEN SANS STAYS, 18TH c. 19. British TV - Ivanhoe ---------------------------------------------------------------------- gary walker [12,278]CSuX:copper dyeing Subject: Re: copper dyeing From: Gary Walker Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 09:35:56 -0500 I hate to point this out, but dying with the material as described will destroy the cloth you are dying, in time. Where did you get this information? This material was also used in illumination. Look at all the holes that result sometime. I don't know how long the process takes, but it will break down the fibres. Rinsing in an alkali bath might prevent this but would probably change the colour. Gary R.D. Walker gerekr@aol.com ------------------------------ gail and veli niinimaa [12,279]CSuX:henry ford museum trip Subject: Re: Henry Ford Museum Trip From: Gail and Veli Niinimaa Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 09:36:25 -0500 >From a consevation point of view the librarian was perfectly within her rights to not allow the photocopying. This form of reproduction would cause damage to the fashion plates, not to mention the poor copy that a photocopy makes of the original. The dyes in the original fashion plates are light sensitive and need to be looked after properly if we can hope and expect them to survive for another 150 years. It is an inconvenience but necessary if we wish to keep the preservation of the collection as a priority. >From Gail Niinimaa, Textile Conservator, Calgary, Alberta ------------------------------ sharon l. harrett [45,280]CSuX:embroidery Subject: Re: Embroidery From: "Sharon L. Harrett" Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 09:36:36 -0500 On Wed, 8 Jan 1997, Anita Easton wrote: > Mrs C S Yeldham writes: > > > evidence is a result of survival problems. The period covers the flowering > > of Opus Anglicanum which, as a competant embroiderer, I am completely > > daunted by (look for pictures of the Syon cope for example), and the > > Yes! Me too! Me too! :) > > Every time I look at Opus Anglicanum I am _so_ impressed and think > "I'd love to try that... just a little bit..." but I've never managed > to find any writing which covers techniques and designs. > > There's lots about the style in general, and I find the politics of > buying in a "foreign" style of embroidery fascinating; the discussions > of Italian churches buying Opus Anglicanum work (from England > obviously :) reminded me of the discussions and feelings which spurred > the creation of Richelieu work in France. whether you get your > embroidery from locally (within the congregation if your' ea church) > seems to effect not only the availability and price of the style, but > people's feelings about it. > > Anyway, I shall stop rambling :) > > Does anyone know of a good book which covers the techniques of Opus > Anglicanum sufficiently for me to try working a little? > > Is anyone else interested in trying? We could get together in mail and > keep each other's spirits up in the face of some mindboggling > beautiful examples :) > > Anita > Greetings to all: and to answer your Q, the definitive reference book on Opus Anglicanum is "English Medieval Embroidery",by A.G.I. Christie, Oxford, Clarendon Press, 1938. This one has plates, dates, stitches, the works. Only problem might be locating a copy. Try inter-library loan from a stste university library. While I am no embroiderer, I am fascinated by the skill and patience of those who are...... good luck Anita. Ceridwen o Cahercommaun ------------------------------ laura russell [15,281]CSuX:page update Subject: Page update From: Laura Russell Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 09:36:44 -0500 Hi, everyone! This is just a note to tell you all that The Cat's Pajamas Vintage clothing site has just been updated and revised! We now have thumbprint photos that you can blow up, and have added some new categories and items for sale, and will be adding more items in the next few weeks. There is a url minder so you'll know when we add things to the site. Check out "What's New, Pussycat?" for new updated info when you visit, and see whats on the catwalk when you blow up the pics! Thanks!! Laura Russell "The Cat's Pajamas!!Vintage Clothing and Accessories" http://www.sunlink.net/~catspjs voice:(717)458-5233 Fax:(717)458-6440 ------------------------------ gwyn carnegie [58,282]CSuX:copper dyeing Subject: Re: copper dyeing From: Gwyn Carnegie Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 09:37:06 -0500 At 07:36 PM 1/12/97 -0500, you wrote: >I have recently received a large quantity of copper. By saying that you have copper, I assume that you mean anhydrous cupric sulfate. It resembles bright blue crystals. The early modern name for this is blue vitrol, blue stone, veridgres, or blue copperas depending on the practicular author and time peroid. > I have a note from somewhere that copper in a solution of either vinegar > or amonia will produce a dye that will color cotton or wool a deep blue >green and that when rinced in vinegar will turn copper patina green. A 10% solution of cupric sulfate will produce a a very pretty sea green on wool and a pale sea green on silk. I get almost no color on cotton but that is not that surprizing considering plant fibers mordant best with alum. Don't go above 15% or you risk damage to the fibers. Mordants are notoriously harsh on fabric. The amount of cupric sulfate that would have to be used to get a deep blue green would be really harmful to to the finished goods. Adding amonia to the original bath shouldn't up the absorption rate of the copper any. Try a scrap, let it dry and place it in a sunny place for 2 wks to watch for a reaction. Another way to mordant with copper is use a copper pot to boil the fiber in. If you add urine to the pot ( the origins of amonia in dyeing) you can sometimes get a color simular to a 5% solution. This is an ancient method.........Roman, if I remember correctly. As a general rule, an alkaline bath will change the color reaction to a bluer cast and amonia as an after bath will work just fine. An acid bath will change the resulting color toward the yellow/red side. The kicker is that to fix indigo, you use a vinegar (acid) bath to bring out the blues....go figure;-) >Also what areas would have had access to copper to have dyed with it? >I believe there are copper mines in northern Turkey. I don't have a record for the origins of the product but there are references as to it's use as early as 12th c. I sure one of the early medievalist out there beat that date. > Does any one have any suggestions on this project? Yikes....depends on the period you are looking at and how big of a project you want to take on? The sky's the limit. I'm sure the rest of the list can give some great ideas. Cheers; Gwyn Carnegie; Sacramento, Ca. --------------------------------------------- Sometimes also known as Gwyndolynn Anne the Obscure ------------------------------ sharon l. harrett [30,283]CSuX:arnold Subject: Re: Arnold From: "Sharon L. Harrett" Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 09:37:15 -0500 On Mon, 13 Jan 1997, Mrs C S Yeldham wrote: > I agree with Gywn, just using one source is not the best way to proceed in > making costumes (or anything else). The problem in the late 16th, early > 17th century is that Arnold is head and shoulders above anyone else I know > working in the area, both in terms of what she has access to and published > and the standards of her work. > > I have heard these criticisms of the scale drawings before, but I don't use > them as a bible (I'm not the right size and shape anyway!) - I use the > proportions as a guide. I also look at every other source I can find, > especially original pictures. > > I would be delighted if there was someone else working in this area > (actually preferably in the late 15th century now) to the same standards > and with the same ability! > > Caroline > Hi Caroline: The rumor mill has it that Janet Arnold is to publish another "Patterns of Fashion" from the Renaissance (1400-1550). If anyone else has heard of this please let us all know. I am very interested in this period, and although I have noticed some flaws in her other books, she is still the best we have (IMHO). Ceridwen ------------------------------ carolyn fraser [12,284]CSuX:embroidery & historic textiles Subject: Re: Embroidery & Historic Textiles From: Carolyn Fraser Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 09:37:20 -0500 I too think there is a place for discussions of historic embroidery on this list, but would also subscribe to a list devoted to this topic if it starts up. On a related topic, I am especially interested in any discussions relating to historic textiles, and if a new list was started, would love to see historic textiles included as well. Carolyn Fraser, Brisbane Australia *(who secretly views historic costume as merely a vehicle for historic textiles) ------------------------------ sarah randles [55,285]CSuX:opus anglicanum Subject: Opus Anglicanum From: Sarah Randles Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 09:37:29 -0500 Well, since most people seem to think that this embroidery discussion is appropriate for h-costume I'll continue to discuss it here. But as I've received _lots_ of interest for a separate page I'll see what I can do. Lorina Stephens wrote: > I will offer my two cents' worth on the topic. Over the past two >years I have done a great deal of opus anglicanum work, primarily on a >pseudo-reproduction piece which carries trivial statistics like 700 >stitches/square inch, approximately 105,000 stitches in the piece, 1.152 km >of silk embroidery thread, etc., etc., etc. I'm glad I'm not the only one who does this kind of thing. I estimated around 1,000 hours for a pouch about 12cm by 15cm. While my collegues above are >quite correct in stating opus anglicanum employs primarily couching (both >surface and underside) and split stitch, I would encourage use of the >technique or nue, Not to discourage anyone from attempting or nue (although I do think that it's harder than non shaded couching in that it requires better artistic abilities), but I would disagree that it is part of the opus anglicanum repertoire. This is merely a matter of definition of terms, an area which is sadly lacking in embroidery (and textile) scholarship, althoughi understand there is some research currently going on at the Centre for Medieval Textiles at the University of Manchester. I would define or nue (translating as 'shaded gold') as a distinct style from opus anglicanum, although definately related to it, since it uses an entirely different technique to define figures and create shading. In earlier OA, while the same basic technique of couching over gold with coloured thread is used to create a subsiduary surface pattern, the shaded parts of the design are executed in split stitch with coloured silk. Or nue does not appear until quite late in the life of the opus anglicanum style, and then develops quite independently, attaining its height in the mid fifteenth century. > As for books, I highly recommend a publication from the Getty >Foundation called _The Conservation of Embroideries and Tapestries_ I second this - it's a great book. Sarah ****************************************************************************** Sarah Randles email: s-randles@adfa.oz.au English Department phone: 06 268 8898 University College ADFA fax: 06 268 8899 Canberra ACT 2601 AUSTRALIA ------------------------------ teddy [46,286]CSuX:buckrahm?: no specific period. Subject: Re: Buckrahm?: No specific period. From: TEDDY Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 09:37:46 -0500 Fran Grimble wrote:- > During a lot of the periods buckram was used, it was used for garments > we would normally dry clean but which before dry cleaning were only spot > cleaned. Doublets were sometimes stiffened with cardboard, and cleaning > that does not seem to have been a consideration. Thanks Fran, I think I'll just avoid using it. I prefer to make all my costume machine washable these days. It's surprising how many things *can* be shoved in the machine too (especially a good one with "delicates" and "woolens" settings like the one I have). > I have a number of Victorian skirts that were stiffened at the bottom > with buckram. Age seems to make it brittle in some cases, but so far > not in others. Where the buckram is in good condition it withstands > hand dry cleaning. I don't have these garments machine cleaned, so > don't know what would happen with that. I've encountered old buckram that has gone brittle too. I had the dilemma of a friend who was coming to a medieval event and borrowing garb from me fitting into everything but the bodice. I hadn't realized that he fondness for baggy tops was because she's terminnaly embarassed by the size of her bust, so my "put everything on display" renaissance (which would have fitted) was out of the question. I used an old velvet curtain pelmet (stiffened with buckram) and made a half-hour bodice. To my amazement, it worked wonderfully, and I would have carried on using it as part of my "loanable" costume stock if not for the fact that the buckram stiffening rapidly cracked and crumbled after the first wearing. Teddy teddy1@mdx.ac.uk ====================== Bibliographical Services Dept. * If a costume's worth * Middlesex University * making, it's worth * Bounds Green Road * making well enough * London, N11 2NQ * for every-day wear. * England ====================== Tel No.(0181) 362 6405 ------------------------------ j.g. [11,287]CSuX:glass beeds and beeding Subject: Glass beeds and beeding From: "J.G." Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 09:37:56 -0500 I am Native alaskan that is to say i am an Indian and i learned verry young how to beed using small glass beeds... I would like to make some period pouches for some of my friends as gifts (friends in my renasaunce group) what i would like to know is when did they start using glass beeds in europe and did they use them just on clothes, pouches or what??? can anyone help me on this subject??? thank you in advance.... Jenny ------------------------------ mrs c s yeldham [26,288]CSuX:15th century Subject: 15th century From: Mrs C S Yeldham Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 09:38:01 -0500 Help! I need some documentation on linings of late 15th century English clothes, men and women, and I'm having trouble finding it. I'm being 'told' (voice of authority here) that linings at this period are either lightweight coloured wools (no argument from me) or natural coloured linen. Naturally, I've got coloured linens lined up from my stocks for linings, and I'd love some evidence for coloured linen linings - can anyone help me or am I going to have to buy more natural coloured linen? If Janet Arnold is going to publish something on the late 15th century, that would be wonderful, but I haven't heard anything, and she still hasn't published her book on shirts and smocks! I would agree with Sally Ann, in discussion/listening to talks by her, I'm sure she does sew (she said she was going to make a copy of the EI corset with whalebone). While an author is of course responsible for any errors in their books, it is very difficult to eliminate all of them and rather hard on the author to thereby deduce she doesn't sew! Check out cookbooks sometime! Given the sources she works with, and the state they are in, I am amazed she gets the detail she does. Jean Hunnisett however has published a book on medieval clothes, but unfortuately, the late 15th century stuff is all Italian! Caroline ------------------------------ gary stephens [97,289]CSuX:embroidery Subject: Re: embroidery From: Gary Stephens Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 09:38:11 -0500 Cat wrote: >Lorina, what ground did you use? and was the silk twisted or untwisted? >Which did you have better results with? Can you tell I've been wanting to >try this :). The ground I used was a fine silk noile. Although this fabric would not have been used in the Middle Ages, as it would have been considered inferior, it was what I could afford in silk. The silk which would have been used would have been a twill or plain evenweave, but at $75.00/yard, well, this was beyond my means as I needed a very considerable quantity. The thread I used is a serica, or twisted, as you've said. :) I chose this because, although both serica and a ver au soie were used, the serica has more body and would stand up better to wear, an important consideration in this case. I would suggest that if the piece you intend to embroider is mostly for decorative purposes, and will receive little abrasion from wear, then go ahead and use the untwisted (a ver au soie). If wear is a consideration, use serica. Given the poor longevity of silk these days (five to 15 years at best) I'd be inclined to use whatever is going to give me the longest life. >Another book I would recommend for researching this is the one by Schutte >and Muller, I think the title is Pictorial Encyclopedia of Embroidery (I >have *got* to start bringing some of my references to work :) ). I >particularly like the detailed descriptions they give of grounds, threads >and patterns. I concur heartily with this. The title, however, is _The Art of Embroidery_. It is a very difficult to find book, carries a simply huge price tag if found, but should be available through library loan. This is one of those books which are bible. >>From studying OA it seems to me that underside couching was used in the >earlier pieces with the Or Nue technique seeming to be developed in >background work on OA pieces (the St Martin's embroiders are great >examples). You are quite correct about underside couching being used in most earlier pieces. However, or nue was not delegated solely to background, but was used extensively in clothing and any pictorial area where high realism and the effects of light and shadow were emphasized. >Most early OA seems to have been done by women. This is not entirely true. The great embroideries of the Middle Ages were, for the most part, executed by embroidery houses, which employed a good many men. That is not to say convents of nuns did not labour extensively on embroideries. They did. But those embroideries of significance, as I said, were stitched by guilds which were governed by very rigid regulations, and very largely populated by men. While the >technique did spread to the continent one account I read seemed to feel >that it was still not the quality of the english embroiderers. The plagues >of the 14th century desimated the ranks of skilled workers in England and >the industry never really recovered. Or Nue took over as the popular work >after that. (For great examples of Or Nue see photos of the Vestments for >the Order of the Golden Fleece). Actually, there are a good many textile conservators and embroidery experts who would refute that statement. Indeed, yes, the English embroiderers were skilled to a level rarely found elsewhere, one of the reasons the body of work known as opus anglicanum has such high regard. However, the embroidery houses in the Germanic regions, in the 1400s and later, achieved effects and skill in embroidery very much in keeping with the high standards of opus anglicanum. Opus teutonicum is often lumped in with opus anglicanum, for that reason, but that particular body of work is in fact from a completely different geographic region and does very much carry with it its own unique flavour. And it was not the plague which caused the decline in skilled embroidery, BTW. It was loom technology and the resultant decrease in cost of lavishly decorated fabric. Once tapestry looms came into existence, and those weaving mills able to produce highly competitive cloth, the embroidery guilds were unable to compete, and so were forced out of business. That gave rise to domestic needlework, and, according to Therle Hughes, one expert in the field, the deline of quality needlework, generally speaking. It could be argued, however, the embroideries of Mary Queen of Scots and a few notable others refutes that claim. However, the skill of Mary and those few others was rare. Much that was known was lost. >So much for lurking, my buttons got pushed :). Thanks! Me too! :) Lorina Stephens ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Gary/Lorina J. Stephens photographer/author of _Touring the Giant's Rib_ & _Credit River Valley_ http://web.idirect.com/~canuck/stephens/stephen.html garys@headwaters.com ------------------------------ greg & jocelyn house [19,290]CSuX:milanese armour Subject: Milanese Armour From: Greg & Jocelyn House Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 09:38:19 -0500 I'm sorry if this is slightly off topic. My husband, who is a blacksmith and armourer, is trying to contact the museum in Glasgow that holds in its collection a particular Milanese suit of armour. The citation I have is "armour of a member of the Matsch family. Milanese (Missaglia workshop), c.1450. Scott Collection, Glasgow Museum (formerly at Churburg). (reg.no '39-65e). Does anyone know how to obtain contact details (or email details) for something such as this and any ideas of just what institution holds this. Another citation for the same suit, but in another book gives the institution as the Glasgow Museums and Art Galleries). Thank you Jocelyn House ------------------------------ kirk albrecht m311 [7,291]CSuX:vintage fashions of yesterday for today Subject: Vintage Fashions of yesterday for today From: Kirk Albrecht M311 Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 09:38:27 -0500 Does anyone know if the magazine called Vintage Fashions of yesterday for today is still being published? If it is does anyone know how to order it? Kelly Albrecht m311@aol.com ------------------------------ witt meggan [15,292]CSuX:arnold debate Subject: Arnold Debate From: Witt Meggan Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 10:11:01 -0500 It seems that many of us are not taking in to account the fact that the dimensions of the "average" human body have changed drastically since many of these styles were used. Today's active, healthy people are, on the whole, much larger and not deformed by the wearing of fashionable corsetry. Also, the ravages of poor nutrition and inactive lifestyles must have affected the shape of the human form of earlier times. I have noticed that, especially in the areas of shoulder, arm's eye, and waist dimensions, an un-altered, authentic period pattern will not translate well when applied to a modern actor or actress. ------------------------------ northshield folk [23,293]CSuX:15th century Subject: 15th century From: Northshield Folk Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 10:51:32 -0500 CS>Help! I need some documentation on linings of late 15th century English CS>clothes, men and women, and I'm having trouble finding it. I'm being CS>'told' (voice of authority here) that linings at this period are either CS>lightweight coloured wools (no argument from me) or natural coloured linen. CS>Naturally, I've got coloured linens lined up from my stocks for linings, CS>and I'd love some evidence for coloured linen linings - can anyone help me CS>or am I going to have to buy more natural coloured linen? CS>Caroline Try History of Costume by Kholer, it has discriptions of the linings in many garments. Nancy Laughlin-Foust shadewescompany@on-ramp.com Glory,Magesty,Unity Warriors of the Northshield and the Known World ------------------------------ northshield folk [28,294]CSuX:arnold Subject: Arnold From: Northshield Folk Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 10:51:40 -0500 I have never used an Arnold pattern exactly how it is printed in the books. I used the details to construct the pieces to fit the person. What I suggest to someone getting into Rennisance clothing is to use the Info from Arnolds books since it comes from real garments, and use some of the construction tricks from Winter&Savoy's Elizabethan Costuming. This seems to be a good balance of information between the two for someone to actually get the garment made and have it be pretty accurate. My pet peeve in the re-creation world is the skirts on Elizabethan dresses being so skimpy on fabric that they are stretched tight over the hoops and the skirts swing back and forth like a bell. Just my $.02 Nancy Laughlin-Foust shadewescompany@on-ramp.com Glory,Magesty,Unity Warriors of the Northshield and the Known World ------------------------------ gina balestracci [30,295]CSuX:stanford baroque dance workshop Subject: Stanford Baroque Dance Workshop From: Gina Balestracci Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 12:18:11 -0500 Fran wrote: > I would recommend the >annual baroque dance workshop held in late July or early August by the >Stanford University music department (for whatever reason, not the dance >division) in Palo Alto, CA. I administered that program for a few years many moons ago. The reason that it is offered by the music department has to do more with the historical development of the department than anything else. Putnam Aldrich, one of the founding fathers of the department, was also one of the founding fathers of the performance practice movement in this country. The faculty felt (and many of them still do) that in order to be a good musician of the repertoire of the 17th and 18th centuries, you need to know about the dance music of the period (it informed much of the other music of the time). To that end, dance classes were required of most of the grad students in the program (now, if you want to see something funny, think about a room full of musicians trying to dance :-)--fine and gross motor skills don't always mix). The summer program was an outgrowth of those classes--getting internationally recognized experts in baroque dance to continue where the Stanford faculty left off. Even though the degree program in early music performance practice has been killed off, the summer dance workshop remains, probably because it pays for itself. Off-topic, I know, but interesting trivia. Gina balestracci@saturn.montclair.edu ------------------------------ kat hargus [23,296]CSuX:dyeing Subject: dyeing From: Kat Hargus Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 12:18:47 -0500 The original information I recieved was from a fiber list--spinners and weavers. Thanks for all the info. i'm sorry the original post was so broad. I do lots of different things -- from early Viking to a piece from 1904 that I just made for a show at a historical home in the St. louis area. I do a little of everything-- i love all of it and research each piece. i'd love to get into more Renaissance (N. Italian) or Burgundian pieces, but so far, no luck on finding anywhere to wear them. So I personally wear the Cheyenne Indian garb, and pre-1840 blackpowder re-enactment garb. My dream is to make a full Elizabethan-- wheel farthingale, ruff, the whole nine yards. But teh shop keeps me pretty busy, so that project is still on the shelf Again, thanks for the info, and if anyone thinks of anything else, i'd appreciate it. Thanks! Kat :) ------------------------------ cathy johhnson [11,297]CSuX:subscription correction Subject: SUBSCRIPTION CORRECTION From: Cathy Johhnson Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 14:55:21 -0500 I also sent this correction to owner h-costume etc., so forgive me if I am repeating. My mail has erroneously been going to graphicart@epsint.bdrm.com. It needs instead to go to graphicart@epsi.net. Thank you very much. Cathy Johnson ------------------------------ cathy johhnson [9,298]CSuX:nettle textiles, women sans stays, 18th c. Subject: NETTLE TEXTILES, WOMEN SANS STAYS, 18TH c. From: Cathy Johhnson Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 14:55:28 -0500 I've come across several mentions in the primary documents and early records of clothing being made of nettles (Pioneer Families in Missouri, and I believe in J. Bradbury); anybody have any documentation. Also, Woodmason, Dwight and others mention 18th C. women going without their stays for work--looking for primary documentation. ------------------------------ bill hubbard [37,299]CSuX:british tv - ivanhoe Subject: British TV - Ivanhoe From: Bill Hubbard Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 14:55:53 -0500 Sally Ann wrote: >Any British subscribers who saw Ivanhoe yesterday - have you recovered yet >from seeing what the BBC calls the most authentic production ever!!!!! Frankly, I think its pretty shameful. The BBC STILL doesn't seem to have come out from the "cover-it-in-filth-and-dye-it-all-brown" stage of historic costuming for any period prior to 1500 AD. And the fright-wigs! ("Hair, hair - we need more hair" must have *echoed* round the studios - "oh - and put some of it in those skinny plaits - thats what the kids will respond to, man!") And the armour?! - what are the odd leather panels with decorative upholstery nails? A job-lot from the RKO Studio sale, I would guess. I have to admit, I gave up after about 20 minutes through irritation and had occasional frights as I channel hopped through for the rest. >From the trailer for the next episode - of the Tourney - they have anachronistic great helms a couple of generations too early and an uncomfortable mix of real and string mail. I can see that for the next couple of years at our shows we are going to have to be working against the picture that this series will create. Thanks, BBC. I know the research for costumes can be expensive, but there is always the village library. What a disappointment. Regards, Bill PS - To say nothing of the dialogue and acting - even worse than Kevin "Cardboard" Costner in *that* film. ------------------------------ charlene charette [9,300]CSuX:embroidery Subject: Embroidery From: Charlene Charette Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 14:56:43 -0500 Add me to those who would gladly join a list devoted to historical embroidery. Because it is an interest of mine I don't mind seeing discussion of it here, but I can understand how it might be annoying to those who don't share a needlework interest. --Charlene ------------------------------ cynthia virtue [11,301]CSuX:glass beeds and beeding Subject: Re: Glass beeds and beeding From: Cynthia Virtue Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 14:56:48 -0500 There was an article in one of the fancy coffee-table magazines about two years ago which dealt with beading, and included fairly early works. I gave it to a friend who is interested in beading; I know she reads this list, perhaps she'll remember it and can send more details. It was in "Architectural Digest" or "Smithsonian" or something like that. Cynthia ------------------------------ northshield folk [41,302]CSuX:arnold Subject: Re: Arnold From: Northshield Folk Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 14:56:55 -0500 SY>>What I suggest to someone getting into Rennisance clothing is to use the SY>>Info from Arnolds books since it comes from real garments, and use some SY>>of the construction tricks from Winter&Savoy's Elizabethan Costuming. SY>>Just my $.02 SY>> SY>>Nancy Laughlin-Foust SY>RE the Winter & Savoy book on Elizabethan costuming. I don't believe I SY>know that one. Do you know exactly what it is called and where to find it? SY>Thanks, Sylvia Elizabethan Costuming for the years 1550-1580 by Janet Winter & Carolyn Savoy ISBN 0-9630220-0-8 Other times productions 361- 60th street Oakland, CA 94618 List price is $15.00 They also have a Victorian version that I have not seen, and supposedly a Medieval version that I have not seen in print yet. Nancy Laughlin-Foust shadewescompany@on-ramp.com Glory,Magesty,Unity Warriors of the Northshield and the Known World ------------------------------ End of H-COSTUME Digest - 13 Jan 1997 to 14 Jan 1997 **************************************************** automatic digest processor [37,303]CSuX:h-costume digest - 14 jan 1997 to 15 jan 1997 Subject: H-COSTUME Digest - 14 Jan 1997 to 15 Jan 1997 From: Automatic digest processor Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 00:02:27 -0500 There are 40 messages totalling 1250 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Arnold Debate 2. Annotated Arnold (2) 3. NETTLE TEXTILES, WOMEN SANS STAYS, 18TH c. (2) 4. Tabet Weaving 5. Henry Ford Museum Trip (2) 6. libraries and photocopying 7. CHESTER CO. INVENTORIES (3) 8. When men started wearing belts (2) 9. 15th century 10. Scalamandre Silk 11. La Mode Illustree 12. Opus Anglicanum 13. Looking for history of Corsets (3) 14. Masterpieces of Women's Costume 15. Ivanhoe 16. photocopying old books 17. Hoop skirt notions (was re: Arnold) 18. Arnold debate 19. NETTLE TEXTILES (2) 20. Crocheted Lace 21. Historical fit: was: Re: Arnold Debate (2) 22. Embroidery Continued 23. Embroidery 24. Arnold 25. NETTLES 26. armor sources ...help please... 27. Glass Beads and Beading 28. Synthetic Ermine info request 29. Commedia Del'Larte 30. Cleaning Jewelry ---------------------------------------------------------------------- carrie a fellows [35,304]CSuX:arnold debate Subject: Re: Arnold Debate From: Carrie A Fellows Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 10:01:59 -0500 On Tue, 14 Jan 1997, Witt Meggan wrote: > It seems that many of us are not taking in to account the fact that the > dimensions of the "average" human body have changed drastically since many of > these styles were used. > > Today's active, healthy people are, on the whole, much larger and not > deformed by the wearing of fashionable corsetry. > > I have noticed that, especially in the areas of shoulder, arm's eye, and waist > dimensions, an un-altered, authentic period pattern will not translate well > when applied to a modern actor or actress. > I agree, in part. I know that at Colonial Williamsburg, the costumers have had to adjust period patterns in order to make the garments (i.e. stays) wearable by their interpretive staff. Modern folks stand and carry themselves differently than people in past centuries. On the other hand, if you look at period paintings you will often see that the wrinkles on the subjects' clothing correspond to wrinkles found on a modern person wearing period-correct clothing. When a modern man wears an 18thC sleeved waistcoat, there are weird wrinkles that run from the arm's eye to the neckline area; they are consistent with wrinkles in paintings of men wearing sleeved waistcoats. Perhaps if the modern actor or actress wore the appropriate foundation garments and (here's the hardest part) did not _expect_ the period garments to fit the way modern clothes fit, they would work. Carrie A. Fellows ------------------------------ margo anderson [32,305]CSuX:annotated arnold Subject: Re: Annotated Arnold From: Margo Anderson Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 10:03:12 -0500 Fran Grimble wrote: > Personally, I >prefer to fit the scale pattern rather than use a sloper. I think it's >easier to avoid creeping modernisms that way. And also easier to take >the right style and alter it to fit, than take the right fit and >drastically alter the style. That doesn't work well for me, but my size probably has a lot to do with it-- I'm 5'9" and wear a size 24! That's a huge grade up from most period patterns, with way too much room for distortion. If I was working with a client who was close to the scale pattern, I'd probably try it the other way-- but I'd never expect to get a fit without alterations, and I'd certainly never try it without making a muslin first, unlike most of the indignant Arnold users I encounter. Northshield folk wrote: My pet peeve in the re-creation world is the skirts on Elizabethan dresses being so skimpy on fabric that they are stretched tight over the hoops and the skirts swing back and forth like a bell. Well, my pet peeve would have to be the gigantic gaps in the back lacing on ladies' bodices. One of our local Ren Faire groups is a particular offender with this-- allmost all their ladies have bodices that end a few inches past their armsceyes, and then gaps up to 12", depending on the size of the wearer. Huge metal grommets too, of course. Margo Anderson ------------------------------ cynthia virtue [15,306]CSuX:nettle textiles, women sans stays, 18th c. Subject: Re: NETTLE TEXTILES, WOMEN SANS STAYS, 18TH c. From: Cynthia Virtue Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 10:03:20 -0500 > I've come across several mentions in the primary documents and early > records of clothing being made of nettles (Pioneer Families in Missouri, > and I believe in J. Bradbury); anybody have any documentation. Not as such, but I do recall from naturalist talks back when I lived in Nebraska, that if you boil nettle leaves three times, throwing out the water the first two times, the third boiling is worthwhile for use as a hair rinse; apparently a pioneer technique. As nettle plant stems are fairly fibrous, probably you could do the same thing with them and be left with non-welting fibers to use for clothing. Either that or it's a rumor spread by the Calamine lotion lobby. ------------------------------ kathy wells [35,307]CSuX:tabet weaving Subject: Tabet Weaving From: Kathy Wells Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 10:03:25 -0500 Hi Everybody, I got a question. I know that tabet weaving was found in Queen Asa's grave in Norway and that the technique goes back at least to the bronze age in Denmark. The technique was never mechanized very well. I've seen a photo of an attempt done during WWI. Now here is the kicker part. Does anyone have any evidance that it would or would not be used as a decorative element on working/ rural clothes during the 19th Century? Or can we figure that if we have evidance of it being used during the 9th C through the 20th Century that the 19th Century is in between? I would really like to know if anyone has seen any garment with this kind of decorative device. Actually I can't think of any other way that braid type trims might have been produced. The second part of this question is what kind of fibers would have been used in rural areas. My thought is that it would be linen. Cotten does not grow well around here. The trade route thing is not going to work with this museum professional. Does any one know anything about dying linen? I usually work with wool and could do some wool braids but I am trying to get something appropriate in a lighter weight. These are just a few question that I have been working on this week and thought I'd put them out there for discussion. I look forward to your comments. KATH ------------------------------ glenna jo & bill christen [22,308]CSuX:henry ford museum trip Subject: Re: Henry Ford Museum Trip From: Glenna Jo & Bill Christen Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 10:03:44 -0500 Gail and Veli Niinimaa wrote: > > Re: The Henry Ford Trip and the disappointment of not being able to > photocopy original fashion plates. > photocopy makes of the original. The dyes in the original fashion plates > are light sensitive and need to be looked after properly if we can hope > and expect them to survive for another 150 years. It is an inconvenience > but necessary if we wish to keep the preservation of the collection as a > priority. What long term harm is there in making ONE good quality copy, that can then be used to reproduce copies for us to study now? I am sure that the expense of the original copying could be passed on as part of the subsequent copies. Where is the balance between preservation and education? Bill Christen -- gwjchris@rust.net ------------------------------ susan evans [10,309]CSuX:libraries and photocopying Subject: Re: libraries and photocopying From: Susan Evans Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 10:03:50 -0500 Some libraries (such as our NY State Library) have special book photocopiers. The glass plate is at the very edge so you don't have to force down the book. It can be held at a normal angle ("L") - one side is copied while the other hangs down over the edge of the machine. Much easier on bindings. I wish more libraries had these machines. Sue Evans ------------------------------ cathy johhnson [9,310]CSuX:chester co. inventories Subject: CHESTER CO. INVENTORIES From: Cathy Johhnson Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 10:03:55 -0500 I've been trying to find a copy of Chester County Inventories by Margaret Schiffer. Does anyone know where I might get one? Thanks-- Cathy Johnson ------------------------------ sylvia rognstad [10,311]CSuX:when men started wearing belts Subject: When men started wearing belts From: Sylvia Rognstad Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 10:04:09 -0500 I always thought that men wearing belts didn't start happening until about the 1920s or 1930s until I saw a photo recently of some college students @1905 with belted pants instead of suspenders. Does anyone know if that was an anomoly or not? A fashion statement? Were they ahead of their time or what? You all seem to be so knowledgeable, I figured someone would have an answer. Thanks a lot. Sylvia ------------------------------ david brewer [28,312]CSuX:15th century Subject: Re: 15th century From: David Brewer Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 10:04:16 -0500 In message <7582.199701141025@mailhub.ggr.co.uk> csy20688@GGR.CO.UK writes: > Help! I need some documentation on linings of late 15th century English > clothes, men and women, and I'm having trouble finding it. I'm being > 'told' (voice of authority here) that linings at this period are either > lightweight coloured wools (no argument from me) or natural coloured linen. > Naturally, I've got coloured linens lined up from my stocks for linings, > and I'd love some evidence for coloured linen linings - can anyone help me > or am I going to have to buy more natural coloured linen? The only colour of linen that I have seen specifically mentioned in sundry primary source documentation is black. I can hunt down proper references for you if you like... I suspect I came accross this in Lord Howard's Houshold Books or from the Wardbrobe Accounts of Edward IV. Probably sundry wills as well. I expect "fustian" is an authentic lining cloth as well. Whatever "fustian" was... Whatever linen cloth you have, is sure to dye black, so no problem. So... what sources does the "voice of authority" have for non-black linen? -- David Brewer ------------------------------ don and carolyn richardson [29,313]CSuX:scalamandre silk Subject: Scalamandre Silk From: don and carolyn richardson Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 10:04:30 -0500 Several people have asked me how they can contact Scalamandre, the company I mentioned that makes silk brocades. My understanding is that Scalamandre caters to the interior design trade only, and does not sell retail (although I confess I've never tried to find out so I could be wrong). However, if you contact Sheila at the address below she has told me that she can do business with Scalamandre, and would be willing to order fabrics from them on my behalf, so I assume she's offering the service to everyone (correct me if I'm wrong Sheila!). But as I said, expect to pay *a lot* per yard. The stuff Diana used on her sofa was $100/yard and is a pale peach brocade. >From another note: > If you are interested, please feel free to contact Shiela > McLemore for additional information. She sells finer fabrics by mail > order, at a discount, and for orders over $100 shipped within the > continental U.S., She pays the shipping. > > Sheila McLemore > McLemore Interiors > 119 Tower Place > Ridgway, Colorado 81432-9443 > Phone/Fax: (970) 626-4213 > E-Mail: mtnmama@rmi.net Carolyn ------------------------------ don and carolyn richardson [14,314]CSuX:la mode illustree Subject: La Mode Illustree From: don and carolyn richardson Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 10:04:37 -0500 My apologies to all of you who expressed an interest in getting copies of the "La Mode Illustree" that I have. I am still attempting to find a reasonable source for copying the patterns as they are fairly large. I'm going to check out a blueprinting place soon (it's been real busy at work). Would some of you be interested in just the magazine or just the pattern sheet, or do you want both? This might be a way to make them available more inexpensively, if you want just one or the other. Carolyn/Tetchubah ------------------------------ gary stephens [62,315]CSuX:opus anglicanum Subject: Re: Opus Anglicanum From: Gary Stephens Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 10:05:56 -0500 Sarah wrote: >Not to discourage anyone from attempting or nue (although I do think that >it's harder than non shaded couching in that it requires better artistic >abilities), but I would disagree that it is part of the opus anglicanum >repertoire. This is merely a matter of definition of terms, an area which >is sadly lacking in embroidery (and textile) scholarship, althoughi >understand there is some research currently going on at the Centre for >Medieval Textiles at the University of Manchester. Perhaps the difficulty here, as you say, is in terminology. Opus Anglicanum does not refer to a style. It refers to a body of medieval English embroideries. Although opus anglicanum does have a style of its own, it should not be thought of as an embroidery technique. According to the The Victoria and Albert Museum (Opus Anglicanum 1963) this body of work encompasses, in time, from the Norman Conquest of 1066 through to the late 1400s. From that time to the end of the 1600s, it is opus teutonicum which takes centre stage, that is, the body of embroideries which were executed primarily in Flanders, although refer to the Germanic region. Just to confuse matters even more :) opus teutonicum also includes the stunning whitework embroideries of that time. The technique of or nue (also known as lazurtechnik) made a few tentative appearances in opus anglicanum during its later period, likely copied from the brilliant opus teutonicum embroiderers already making a name for themselves in Flanders. While or nue is not common in opus anglicanum, it is there. As to the difficulty of doing or nue I would agree with you that it requires a certain degree of artistic awareness, although skill is perhaps an inappropriate term. What the technique requires is an understanding of the concepts of the modelling effects of light and shadow and the physical principals of warm and cool colours and how the eye perceives them. Certainly these are principals I teach to my art students, one of them as young as seven years old, who quite easily (granted he's very clever) comprehends the eye sees the warm colours, yellow in specific, first, and the cool colours later, indigo at the very last. And that all this has to do with light waves and their length. Once it is understood that shadow is generally cooler and darker, and highlight warmer and lighter, the budding artist is well on their way to creating realistic modelling. I have found in all the or nue I have done it is extremely important to be sure of composition and detail before finally sketching the cartoon on cloth. And when I finally do sketch on cloth, my cartoons are highly detailed pen and inks so that I may easily judge, through the density of the laid gold, just what is deep shadow, what is grey, what is highlight. Hhhhmmmm, I think I've gone on quite enough. Apologies. Lorina Stephens ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Gary/Lorina J. Stephens photographer/author of _Touring the Giant's Rib_ & _Credit River Valley_ http://web.idirect.com/~canuck/stephens/stephen.html garys@headwaters.com ------------------------------ catherine leonard [17,316]CSuX:looking for history of corsets Subject: Looking for history of Corsets From: Catherine Leonard Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 10:06:13 -0500 Greetings! I'm in the beginning stages of research for my dissertation and am looking for citations/references to corsetry. My academic discipline is anthropology and my topic is fetishism in the modern US with an emphasis on corsetry. I'm looking for scholarship on the history of corsetry, especially wrt ideal images and the actual use of corsets. I do have a couple of book references but thought that folks on this list would be better able to assess which books are better researched. Thanks! Cate Catherine M. Leonard | lunar23@voicenet.com | cleonard@astro.ocis.temple.edu Department of Anthropology, 210 Gladfelter Hall, Phila, Pa. ------------------------------ cathy johhnson [17,317]CSuX:masterpieces of women s costume Subject: Masterpieces of Women's Costume From: Cathy Johhnson Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 10:06:34 -0500 I've been browsing through my Masterpieces of Women's Costumes by Aline Bernstein again (have been trying to get my clothing bibliography updated.) I hadn't looked at it in years. Amazed by the last half 18th C. shift on p. 9, with buttoned bodice and ruffle! She notes that things were drawn either from real objects or plates/paintings. I wish she had said were each piece came from! I know she was a theatre person. Is this a pretty dependable book? The line drawings are wonderful, so well done. Cathy J. ------------------------------ margaret reid [14,318]CSuX:ivanhoe Subject: Ivanhoe From: Margaret Reid Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 18:20:59 -0500 Yes, I watched Ivanhoe, and thought the costumes were good - they are what most people (not h-costume subscribers of course) think 'medieval' clothes look like. And considering that the story is complete fiction and is not historically accurate, I think the costume designers pretty much had carte blanche. (What I couldn't understand was why that dog didn't limp after having its claws removed.) Margaret Reid (No flames please; this is my first time posting to this group and it is with great temerity that I do so.) ------------------------------ sheryl nance-durst [21,319]CSuX:chester co. inventories Subject: Re: CHESTER CO. INVENTORIES From: Sheryl Nance-Durst Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 18:21:27 -0500 >I've been trying to find a copy of Chester County Inventories by Margaret >Schiffer. Does anyone know where I might get one? Cathy, According to _Books in Print_ that book should still be in print & any bookstore should be able to order it for you. The ISBN number is 0685785033. Current price is listed as $19.50. Sheryl J. Nance-Durst ...one of the secret masters of Kansas City MO Public Library the world: a librarian. They p_sheryl@kcpl.lib.mo.us control information. Don't ever p**s one off. - Spider Robinson, _The Callahan Touch_ (Opinions expressed in this message do not reflect the viewpoint of the Kansas City MO Public Library.) ------------------------------ gaelscot@aol.com[23,320]CSuX:photocopying old books Subject: photocopying old books From: Gaelscot@aol.com Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 18:21:33 -0500 I once worked in a historical society with a library, and many of our books were rare (in the sense that there weren't many left, not necessarily valuable) and falling apart. Microfilm is the best way to preserve these books, but very expensive. Some of the staff spent part of every day photocopying these old books, then throwing away the original (the spines of which would usually be destroyed in the process). Also, when I did some research at the Bodlein Library in Oxford, photocopying of many texts was not permitted. The library would provide you with photographs of the pages you wanted, for a fee and after a long delay. We would all like copies of everything we're interested in, but it really can't be done all the time. Reproducing old books (either by microfilm, reprinting them, or copying them) is expensive and time-consuming, and many libraries cannot afford it. That's why many libraries of all kinds allow patrons to look at old books, take notes from them, make drawings, etc., but do not allow photocopies. Gail Finke ------------------------------ maggie pierce [20,321]CSuX:hoop skirt notions (was arnold) Subject: Hoop skirt notions (was re: Arnold) From: Maggie Pierce Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 18:21:45 -0500 In a message dated 97-01-14 14:41:10 EST, shadewescompany@on-ramp.com (Northshield Folk) writes: > My pet peeve in the re-creation world is the skirts on Elizabethan > dresses > being so skimpy on fabric that they are stretched tight over the hoops > and > the skirts swing back and forth like a bell. > But even with enough fabric, hoop lines still show. One needs either at least another petticoat, or ruffles on the hoop casings; Some of the "bell" swing is from walking like a modern woman. And so many people cut the skirts they wear over farthingales a tad too short. We have to learn to change the way we walk to suit the gown, instead of changing the gown to suit the way we walk. ------------------------------ mrs c s yeldham [97,322]CSuX:arnold debate Subject: Re: Arnold debate From: Mrs C S Yeldham Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 18:23:15 -0500 Megan Witt (?) wrote the following, and I have to take issue with some of her assumptions. It seems to me she is confusing the 16th and 19th centuries, in that what she says is true, so far as I know, of some people in the 19th century, but is not of the 16th century (which is what much of Arnold's writing is about). England in the 16th century was one of the most prosperous in Europe, well-known for its rich diet and also had a higher level of adult literacy that at any time until the 1944 Education Act (not strictly relevant, but interesting). >It seems that many of us are not taking in to account the fact that the >dimensions of the "average" human body have changed drastically since many >of these styles were used. > Today's active, healthy people are, on the whole, much larger and not >deformed by the wearing of fashionable corsetry. There has, in the last 50 years in the prosperous West, been an increase in *average* height, bone size and weight (excluding rises in obesity which I assume is not referred to). I would challenge 'much larger' however - I'm 5'2", which is currently below average height for women but probably not far off average then. Henry VIII was 6', which was remarked on, but 6' is over average height for men today. Elizabeth I's dimensions, at the end of her life, were 26" waist and 31" bust, which doesn't sound particularly distorted to me, especially given the style of bustline of 1603 and her age at death. If anyone spent her life corseted, she did! The aim of fashionable corsetry in this period, it seems to me, is not to distort the body, but to give a smooth look and, in the high Elizabethan period, the long V at the front - its the Victorian corset which was trying to produce an exaggeratedly small waist. >Also, the ravages of poor nutrition Disregarding the poor (very few of whose garments have survived), and certainly the developed West has little to boast about in the diet of the poor today, there is very little evidence for poor nutrition in the middle class or wealthy, or those living in institutions in the 15th and 16th centuries. Institutional evidence suggests an daily intake of c. 5,000 calories per inhabitant. I've just been reading Barbara Harvey on the monks of Westminster, admittedly a wealthy house, but their pattern of consumption matches other institutions I've read of, such as schools, ships etc. She estimates the daily calorie intake as varying between 4,780 (Lent) and 7,400 (meat days) calories a day. On specific dietary requirements, there are possible deficiencies in the diet described in Vitamins A, C and D which she discusses and says D is accounted for by the amount of fatty fish eaten on fish days and A was almost sufficient. There may be a dip in the quantity of fish eaten in the 1540 - 1560 period, with the change in religious circumstances, but the habit of at least two fish days a week was established again in Elizabeth's reign. Vitamin C is always the problematic one, but this is possibly a result of the sources, accounts show very little fruit and veg being paid for. If however you look at herbals, pictures of gardens and books such as Gervase Markham, who gives order of service of dishes, including salads, there is quite a lot of evidence of use of vegetables, fruit and herbs - the question to be answered is why they don't show up in accounts books - to which I don't have an answer! Places such as the Westminster Abbey probably grew most of their own, as did most people, but this cannot always be the case. >and inactive lifestyles must have affected the shape of the human >form of earlier times. This I really have to take issue with! This was true of certain classes in the Victorian period, but is not true of the 15th and 16th centuries! Anyone who has done any re-enactment knows how much sheer effort goes into doing anything at that time - everything has to be achieved using human or animal labour, and it is *hard* work. As for gentry life-styles, look at the amount of travelling they did, which would be on horseback or in unsprung carriages. The dances (galliard, corranto etc) are energetic, and were a basic skill for every gentry person, Elizabeth I was known to do several galliards before breakfast. We are the inactive ones, even with our exercise classes! >I have noticed that, especially in the areas of shoulder, arm's eye, and >waist dimensions, an un-altered, authentic period pattern will not >translate well when applied to a modern actor or actress. The original garment, from which the pattern was taken, was made for a particular person, especially gentry clothes. If you've ever tried on a period garment made to fit someone else properly, even if they are the same size as you, they will almost certainly be sufficiently different shape to make that garment uncomfortable! I borrowed one kirtle from someone the same size as me - and couldn't move my arms! Her back was broader than mine, so the shoulders fell at the top of my arms - and I was stuck! There are dramatic social changes between the 16th century and the Victorian period, including significantly the move of a large percentage ofthe population into towns. I don't want to give the impression of a 'Merrie England' but social conditions were much better in the 16th century for most people than they were in the 19th century, but the work was harder! Caroline ------------------------------ martha underwood [11,323]CSuX:nettle textiles Subject: Re: NETTLE TEXTILES From: Mary Smith Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 18:23:20 -0500 The use of nettles (Urtica dioica) as a source of bast fibers for textile production is not uncommon in pre-industrialized areas. It is the fibers in the stem that are used, just as the flax fibers and hemp fibers are. These fibers do not have the barbs on them that the nettle leaves do, hence there is no problem with contact dermatitis. Hope this clarifies things, Mary Denise Smith ------------------------------ automatic digest processor [16,324]CSuX:h-costume digest - 14 jan 1997 to 15 jan 1997 Subject: H-COSTUME Digest - 14 Jan 1997 to 15 Jan 1997 From: Automatic digest processor Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 00:02:27 -0500 >I am researching crocheted lace from 1930-50. Does anyone know if crocheted >lace was made by machine during this time? I am also looking for a history >on this type of lace. Does anyone know of references? Please respond >personally. >Penny >Penny E. Ladnier, Virginia Commonwealth University >s0peladn@erols.com >http://www.geocities.com/BourbonStreet/2157 >member: >Costume Society of America >American Fashion Council >Association for Information Systems Professionals > ------------------------------ r.l. shep [19,325]CSuX:when men started wearing belts Subject: Re: When men started wearing belts From: "R.L. Shep" Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 18:23:39 -0500 Sylvia Rognstad wrote: > > I always thought that men wearing belts didn't start happening until about > the 1920s or 1930s until I saw a photo recently of some college students > @1905 with belted pants instead of suspenders. Does anyone know if that > was an anomoly or not? A fashion statement? Were they ahead of their time > or what? You all seem to be so knowledgeable, I figured someone would have > an answer. Thanks a lot. > Sylvia In A DICTIONARY OFENGLISH COSTUME (Cunnington) they send you from "belt" to "waistband" and there they say the following: "19th c. (M and F.) Name given to a detachable belt." But they do not say out of what material. ~!~ R.L. Shep ------------------------------ northshield folk [40,326]CSuX:annotated arnold Subject: Re: Annotated Arnold From: Northshield Folk Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 18:23:51 -0500 WA>Northshield folk wrote: WA>My pet peeve in the re-creation world is the skirts on Elizabethan dresses WA>being so skimpy on fabric that they are stretched tight over the hoops and WA>the skirts swing back and forth like a bell. WA>Well, my pet peeve would have to be the gigantic gaps in the back lacing on WA>ladies' bodices. One of our local Ren Faire groups is a particular offender WA>with this-- allmost all their ladies have bodices that end a few inches past WA>their armsceyes, and then gaps up to 12", depending on the size of the WA>wearer. Huge metal grommets too, of course. >Margo Anderson And if you combine the two, quite the "dress" - not. Going to the nearest Rennfaire is kind of like walking into the set of Hercules, I find it more entertaining to see the "variations" on clothing. One of my favorites was the guy with armor made out of the runningboards from a semi(he was not an actor at the faire). But the one up here does have some in good realistic costume, the ones who really stretch it are usually with the merchants or visitors. The "viking" in a brown polyester monks robe with a plastic horned helm was well, "interesting". Nancy Laughlin-Foust shadewescompany@on-ramp.com Glory,Magesty,Unity Warriors of the Northshield and the Known World ------------------------------ luann mason [71,327]CSuX:historical fit: was: arnold debate Subject: Historical fit: was: Re: Arnold Debate From: LuAnn Mason Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 18:23:59 -0500 On Wed, 15 Jan 1997 10:01:59 -0500 Carrie A Fellows writes: >Perhaps if the modern actor or actress wore the appropriate foundation >garments and (here's the hardest part) did not _expect_ the period >garments >to fit the way modern clothes fit, they would work. An excellent point! And it's not just limited to actors and actresses. I do a lot of custom sewing for Civil War reenactors, and no matter how "hardcore" (authenticity minded) they believe themselves to be, rarely do they actually LIKE a "period" fit. A few observations here: 1) Most men don't know where their "waist" is. A waist length jacket that is *truly* waist length will hit just above their belly button. Trouble is, most of THEM think their waist is several inches below their belly button, because that's where their jeans hit! I've finally taken to jabbing them in the belly and saying, "THIS is where the jacket will end if I make it according to historical standards. Is this where you want it?" The answer is invariably "No, make it longer." I'm currently re-making a jacket for a gentleman who mail ordered from me. He considers himself VERY "hardcore." Me: Are you SURE you want this jacket to end at the waist? Most people are uncomfortable with that. yes. Him (the day after receiving the jacket): It's too short--can you make it longer? Me: (silently) ARGHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!! 2) Most people are used to vertical armscyes that are HUGE, relatively speaking. The average armscye opening on modern garments is approximately half the total waist measurement of the garment, a 1:2 ratio. (This is a generalization; of course, and looser fitting modern garments do not have this ratio). Well, in the time period I deal with (1860-65), the armscyes are almost diagonal, rather than vertical, and the ratio is approximately 1:3; that is, for each inch of armscye, you have three inches of waist. The combination of a tighter armscye and a tight "dropped" shoulder is more than most people can bear. "But I can't move my arms--it's too tight!" Of course, they CAN move their arms, but they CAN'T do calisthenics so they feel constricted and are unhappy. After one woman (a beginner) whacked off the top of her dress and wore the resulting skirt with a white blouse, she asked me if I couldn't recut the top for her because "I can't stand these armholes and waist--I need at least 6" of "give" in the waist to be comfortable," I just said, "No, I can't" and vowed to never, ever again subject one of my handstitched, carefully researched creations to a rank beginner who didn't have a clue how things were supposed to fit. AND FINALLY: 3) (Just because I'm on a roll grousing to everybody this morning!) If it doesn't fit like their favorite jeans and t-shirt, there must be something wrong with it. The idea that corsets / stays and foundation garments are necessary, not optional, and that form fitting garments will NOT feel like your favorite slouchy sweatshirt are just beyond some folks. I don't know how you get it through their heads. If somebody else does, please share, because I'm mad enough to sew all the openings shut on this coat! I'm more mad at myself because I let myself be suckered in by this guy--I thought because he talked the talk, he also walked the walk. I thought, "Wow! At last--here's a guy who KNOWS what he's talking about, and KNOWS what these coats are supposed to fit like! Hurray!" Of course, now I also know why he sent BACK the last 3 coats he ordered from other people. I should have gotten a clue THEN, but naive ole me didn't.....and now I'm stuck remaking this coat which would have been FINE the first time if I'd stuck to my "Reenactor standard" instead of "Historical standard." Grrrrrrrrrrr.... LuAnn ------------------------------ frances grimble [31,328]CSuX:henry ford museum trip Subject: Re: Henry Ford Museum Trip From: Frances Grimble Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 18:24:14 -0500 Glenna Jo & Bill Christen wrote: > > Gail and Veli Niinimaa wrote: > > > > Re: The Henry Ford Trip and the disappointment of not being able to > > photocopy original fashion plates. > > photocopy makes of the original. The dyes in the original fashion plates > > are light sensitive and need to be looked after properly if we can hope > > and expect them to survive for another 150 years. It is an inconvenience > > but necessary if we wish to keep the preservation of the collection as a > > priority. > > What long term harm is there in making ONE good quality copy, that can > then be used to reproduce copies for us to study now? I am sure that > the expense of the original copying could be passed on as part of the > subsequent copies. Where is the balance between preservation and > education? > > Bill Christen Is is really necessary for us to decide that in regard to the Henry Ford Museum? It's their business to decide how to allocate their resources, including staff time as well as artifacts. But I can tell you from my own experience, you cetainly can permanently crack the spine of a book while photocopying. Fran Grimble ------------------------------ catherine kinsey [110,329]CSuX:embroidery continued Subject: Embroidery Continued From: Catherine Kinsey Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 18:24:21 -0500 >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >Lorina, what ground did you use? The ground I used was a fine silk noile. Although this fabric would not have been used in the Middle Ages, as it would have been considered inferior. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks for the information on materials, it will help save me a lot of trial and error :). I had wondered about using silk as most the the examples (pre-1350) I have seen were silk on linen unless they were a silk brocade which I assumed would be a little heavier. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>From studying OA it seems to me that underside couching was used in the >earlier pieces with the Or Nue technique seeming to be developed in >background work on OA pieces (the St Martin's embroiders are great >examples). You are quite correct about underside couching being used in most earlier pieces. However, or nue was not delegated solely to background, but was used extensively in clothing and any pictorial area where high realism and the effects of light and shadow were emphasized. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Do you remember the dates on this? I can find very little Or Nue in Opus Anglicanum work prior to 1300. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >Most early OA seems to have been done by women. This is not entirely true. The great embroideries of the Middle Ages were, for the most part, executed by embroidery houses, which employed a good many men. That is not to say convents of nuns did not labour extensively on embroideries. They did. But those embroideries of significance, as I said, were stitched by guilds which were governed by very rigid regulations, and very largely populated by men. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sorry, I should have been clearer on my dates. Up to the 12th century you can find references to women having done this embroidery but very few men (one Saint is noted for having provided designs). The Doomsday Book notes a women who was given land for having taught a sheriff's daughter the art of gold work (which would have been underside couching). At least one Anglo-Saxon Queen and one Abbess were noted in various chronicles for their embroidery skill. The records of the Broiderer's Guild of London were lost in the Great Fire (drat!) so it has been difficult to trace it's early history. Men seem to have taken over the production of Opus Anglicanum when it became financially advantagous :). English embroidery was noted as being one of the spoils the Normans were looking forward to after the Conquest. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> While the >technique did spread to the continent one account I read seemed to feel >that it was still not the quality of the english embroiderers. The plagues >of the 14th century desimated the ranks of skilled workers in England and the industry never really recovered. Actually, there are a good many textile conservators and embroidery experts who would refute that statement. Indeed, yes, the English embroiderers were skilled to a level rarely found elsewhere, one of the reasons the body of work known as opus anglicanum has such high regard. However, the embroidery houses in the Germanic regions, in the 1400s andlater, achieved effects and skill in embroidery very much in keeping with the high standards of opus anglicanum. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yup, after the plague (mid-1300's) :). >>>>>>>>>>>>>> And it was not the plague which caused the decline in skilled embroidery, BTW. It was loom technology and the resultant decrease in cost of lavishly decorated fabric. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I hadn't run across this theory before, thanks, I will have to do some digging. I still feel the plague was the start of the death-knell for Opus Anglicanum. The resulting lack of manpower could have been part of what encouraged more labor-saving methods of producing money-making luxuries. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Once tapestry looms came into existence, and those weaving mills able to produce highly competitive cloth, the embroidery guilds were unable to compete, and so were forced out of business. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The Guilds still seemed to be pretty busy, at least in England, because embroidered accessories became so popular. The blackwork sleeves of Elizabethan fashion were produced by the pros as were many sweet bags. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That gave rise to domestic needlework, and, according to Therle Hughes, one expert in the field, the deline of quality needlework, generally speaking. It could be argued, however, the embroideries of Mary Queen of Scots and a few notable others refutes that claim. However, the skill of Mary and those few others was rare. Much that was known was lost. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Much early domestic (16th Century) seems to still have been of fairly high quality (if you don't look at the backs :) ). Using samplers as examples, skills did decline as you moved into the 18th century. I would love to get an up close look at the examples of Mary, Queen of Scot's work. Studying the pictures in the book, some of her pieces look a little haphazard, stitches do not all go the same way. I always got the impression her needlework was to fight the boredom of captivity. I've really enjoyed this thread, hope we aren't boring everyone! Cat' ckinsey@kumc.edu ------------------------------ s.thomas [8,330]CSuX:embroidery Subject: Re: Embroidery From: "S.Thomas" Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 18:24:53 -0500 I would also be interested in a historical embroidery list, but I have a feeling that most of my interest is in a somewhat earlier time period - 500-900 a.d. Morgan ------------------------------ elizabeth pruyn [25,331]CSuX:arnold Subject: Re: Arnold From: Elizabeth Pruyn Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 18:25:00 -0500 >Hi Caroline: > The rumor mill has it that Janet Arnold is to publish another >"Patterns of Fashion" from the Renaissance (1400-1550). If anyone else has >heard of this please let us all know. I am very interested in this period, >and although I have noticed some flaws in her other books, she is still the >best we have (IMHO). Hi there, I hope this is true, but I have heard this rumour, including seeing it in print (on a publisher's list-"due out soon") for 2-3 years. For all the problems pointed out in this thread, Jnet Arnold's books are still of a quality not found in many sources. Yours, Elizabeth Elizabeth Pruyn iteach@slip.net Oakland, CA "If I had been around when Rubens was painting, I would have been revered as a fabulous model. Kate Moss? Well, she would have been the paint brush..." - Dawn French ------------------------------ fred struthers [27,332]CSuX:looking for history of corsets Subject: Re: Looking for history of Corsets From: Fred Struthers Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 22:20:40 -0500 Catherine Leonard wrote: > with an emphasis on corsetry. I'm looking for scholarship on the history > of corsetry, especially wrt ideal images and the actual use of corsets. I > do have a couple of book references but thought that folks on this list > would be better able to assess which books are better researched. Hello We publish a book called CORSETS A VISUAL HISTORY shich is a compilation of hundreds of illustrations and ads from 19th and 20th century sources. This is a good historical reference for what women wore and what shaped the silhouette. WE also publish, in FREAKS OF FASHION, a reprint of Wm Berry Lord's THE CORSET AND THE CRINOLINE (1868) in which is discussed absurdities of fashion, dress reform, also corset discussions and 1860's letters. You might query members on the list for their opinions on these books. I also put out a catalog, listing hard to find and out of print books for sale, -- this would include several books on this subject. I would be happy to send you a free catalog. Fred Struthers fsbks@mcn.org ------------------------------ nancy moeur [17,333]CSuX:nettles Subject: Re: NETTLES From: nancy moeur Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 22:20:52 -0500 > fibers do not have the barbs on them that the nettle leaves do, hence there > is no problem with contact dermatitis. A slightly relevant fact: nettle leaves do not have barbs on them at all. They're even edible (though they don't taste very interesting--I've heard they're better cooked.) The irritating fibres are found on the stems. [the nettles i'm most familiar with are found in mountains in the southwestern US--apologies if this is incorrect for other species.] nancy marie moeur 00nmm@williams.edu (finger 00nmm@colrain.williams.edu) ---- we're everywhere. ------------------------------ ches [16,334]CSuX:armor sources ...help please... Subject: Re: armor sources ...help please... From: ches Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 22:22:12 -0500 I have found the article about wax boiled leather and denim. If anyone else wants it I can forward the material to you. It was written by several SCA folks. Here is where they can be found http://www.pbm.com/~lindahl/rialto/armor-leather-msg.html http://sir-alan.chem.indiana.edu:80/mikes/leather.txt http://darkstar.swsc.k12.ar.us/~davidc/leather.txt http://lamar.colostate.edu/~stilicho/armour/baked_leather.html http://lamar.colostate.edu/~stilicho/armour/boiled_leather.html Ciao Ches Member - HTML Writer's Guild ------------------------------ kathy whisler [30,335]CSuX:glass beads and beading Subject: Re: Glass Beads and Beading From: Kathy Whisler Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 22:22:50 -0500 "J.G." asked when glass beads first began to be used in Europe and what they were used on. I have here, for what it's worth, Shire Album #57, "Beadwork" by Pamela Clabburn. It says that glass beads were used in England in "medieval times" and were imported from "glass making countries of the continent." It includes a black and white illustration of heavily beaded pieces from liturgical stoles from late 12th cent. Germany. The beads are described as "beads and seed pearls" and are stitched onto parchment. They form the entire design, which is similar to that of ordinary 12th cent. embroidery. There is also an illustration of two purses completely covered in beads (on a canvas ground) from around 1630. The designs are similar to those used in counted cross stitch at that time. I have personally seen a few beads sewn onto a German vestment that was in the Art Institute of Chicago Vestment Exhibit that some listmembers have written about. It was an "orphry" from the late 15th century, Southern Germany. The few beads used appeared to be glass or turquoise. They were fairly large beads, about halfway between the size of beads sold for embroidery today and what I think are called "pony beads." However, they were used as accents in a few places, rather than being used to form the entire design. I hope this is of help. --Kathy Whisler ------------------------------ margo anderson [50,336]CSuX:historical fit: was: arnold debate Subject: Re: Historical fit: was: Re: Arnold Debate From: Margo Anderson Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 22:22:58 -0500 At 06:23 PM 1/15/97 -0500, you wrote: >I don't know how you get it through their heads. If somebody else does, >please share, because I'm mad enough to sew all the openings shut on this >coat! I'm more mad at myself because I let myself be suckered in by this >guy--I thought because he talked the talk, he also walked the walk. I >thought, "Wow! At last--here's a guy who KNOWS what he's talking about, >and KNOWS what these coats are supposed to fit like! Hurray!" Of >course, now I also know why he sent BACK the last 3 coats he ordered from >other people. I should have gotten a clue THEN, but naive ole me >didn't.....and now I'm stuck remaking this coat which would have been >FINE the first time if I'd stuck to my "Reenactor standard" instead of >"Historical standard." Grrrrrrrrrrr.... > The only way I have found to get it through their heads is to have a written contract that describes the garment, in detail, Especially any details that you think are "dicey",such as that jacket length. Make the customer read it in your presence, (Or if you're doing mail order, include a clause such as "I certify that I have read and understand the above") ask if they understand, and then have them sign it...and collect a 50% non-refundable deposit before you cut the fabric. Did you know ahead of time that he had sent those coats back? My husband and I do leatherwork, and one time we contracted to do a number of pieces for a woman who turned out to be the Customer From Hell. We made one piece, and had such an awful experience that we returned the rest of her money and refused to ever work with her again. Since we were working Ren Faire at the time, we made a point of warning all the leathercrafters there to watch out for her. Turned out that everyone had had the same experience! This woman is notorious for not being able to describe what she wants, look at a drawing, and visualize a finished product, or otherwise communicate with a crafter, including expressing dissapointment in a civil manner.. Interestingly, she's since become a friend, and says she realizes that she's just not a person who should custom order things. (Too bad she had to run rthrough a couple dozen crafters and a lot of ruined leather and fabric on her way to that decision.) While you can't really call up all your competitors to ask for references on a customer, you can discreetly spread the word if someone is Really impossible. If it was your customer who told you about the returns, you could have sympathetically listened to his stories, and checked with the other suppliers, or drawn your own conclusions, and become "overbooked". It's hard to turn down business, especially when you free lance, but some customers cost too much. Margo Anderson ------------------------------ cornelius perkins [23,337]CSuX:synthetic ermine info request Subject: Synthetic Ermine info request From: Cornelius Perkins Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 22:23:04 -0500 A person from another list is asking for help finding synthetic (faux) ermine, or a process for making it: Can anyone here help? She wrote: > Greetings on this snowy day! > A friend of mine is making a dress for her daughter and wants to line > the sleeves with faux ermine. Any suggestions on how to make a good > facsimile? Or is there a place that sells it (no real stuff, > please) and would mail order it? > Thanks in advance for your help. I, also, thank you for your help. Neil -- // Cornelius Perkins cperkins@baviera.com http://www.baviera.com/~cperkins // In girum imus nocte et consumimur igni ------------------------------ margo anderson [25,338]CSuX:looking for history of corsets Subject: Re: Looking for history of Corsets From: Margo Anderson Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 22:23:16 -0500 At 10:06 AM 1/15/97 -0500, you wrote: > >Greetings! I'm in the beginning stages of research for my dissertation >and am looking for citations/references to corsetry. My academic >discipline is anthropology and my topic is fetishism in the modern US >with an emphasis on corsetry. I'm looking for scholarship on the history >of corsetry, especially wrt ideal images and the actual use of corsets. I >do have a couple of book references but thought that folks on this list >would be better able to assess which books are better researched. > I.would also be interested in this topic. I haven't been able to find much on the early (pre-Victorian) history of corsetry as fetishism. Would anyone else agree with me that that notorious 16th century solid iron corset is a fetish garment, especially considering the openings over the breasts? It makes more sense to me than the other argument I've seen put forth, that it's an "orthopedic" device! Margo Anderson . ------------------------------ maggie pierce [8,339]CSuX:nettle textiles, women sans stays, 18th c. Subject: Re: NETTLE TEXTILES, WOMEN SANS STAYS, 18TH c. From: Maggie Pierce Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 22:23:43 -0500 I also seem to recall that ramie is based on nettles. Does that mean that the princess who had to weave shirts of nettles for her enchanted brothers was working with ramie? MaggiRos ------------------------------ high@sympatico.ca[6,340]CSuX:commedia del larte Subject: Commedia Del'Larte From: high@sympatico.ca Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 22:23:50 -0500 Could you possibly tell me a little about the costumes that people used when Commedia Del'Larte was around. Doug ------------------------------ maggie pierce [18,341]CSuX:chester co. inventories Subject: Re: CHESTER CO. INVENTORIES From: Maggie Pierce Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 22:24:11 -0500 In a message dated 97-01-15 18:22:37 EST, P_SHERYL@KCPL.LIB.MO.US (Sheryl Nance-Durst) writes: > According to _Books in Print_ that book should still be in print & any > bookstore should be able to order it for you. The ISBN number is > 0685785033. Current price is listed as $19.50. > > Oh Oh Oh, Madam Librarian! And I mean this most sincerely... Is Books In Print available on line yet? When I go looking for it, I keep getting shunted into corridors of learning that are interesting but not exactly the right thing. MaggiRos "It may be off-topic, but how can anyone mind!" ------------------------------ glenna jo & bill christen [15,342]CSuX:nettle textiles Subject: Re: NETTLE TEXTILES From: Glenna Jo & Bill Christen Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 22:25:31 -0500 Mary Smith wrote: > >The use of nettles...It is the fibers in the stem that are used, just as the >flax fibers and hemp fibers are. These fibers do not have the barbs on them >that the nettle leaves do, hence there is no problem with contact dermatitis. I've used dried nettle stems to twine string back in my fur trade days, and dried nettles no longer have the 'stingers' on them and are no problem to handle. Of course to have dried nettles in quantities to make into fabric you have to deal with fresh nettles.... No thank you! Give me flax or hemp any day! :-) Glenna Jo Christen gwjchris@rust.net ------------------------------ lyzard13@aol.com[15,343]CSuX:cleaning jewelry Subject: Re: Cleani