automatic digest processor [16,0]CSuX:h-costume digest - 30 may 1997 to 31 may 1997 Subject: H-COSTUME Digest - 30 May 1997 to 31 May 1997 From: Automatic digest processor Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 00:00:30 -0400 There are 10 messages totalling 248 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. moire 2. New Columbia Co. 3. For Sale: Singer Treadle Sewing Machine 4. historic - designs or designer? 5. riding habits 1790s 6. Worrying about h-costume 7. German puff and slash 8. H-COSTUME Digest - 23 May 1997 to 24 May 1997 9. Late 13th Cen. cloaks (2) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- susan fatemi [17,1]CSuX:moire Subject: moire From: Susan Fatemi Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 21:59:20 -0700 Someone wanted to know about watered silks. I don't have a reference for that, but a European traveler to Turkey in 1535 wrote about how they made watered mohair cloth. The article is in The Textile Museum Journal, 1993-1994 (v.32 & 33, 1994) Gary Leiser, "Travellers' accounts of mohair production in Ankara from the 15th through the 19th century." Susan Fatemi -- susanf@california.com http://www.california.com/~susanf ------------------------------ nick worthington & jamie nikkel [15,2]CSuX:new columbia co. Subject: Re: New Columbia Co. From: Nick Worthington & Jamie Nikkel Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 23:41:36 -0800 > Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 09:21:30 -0400 > From: Heather Leigh Harrison > Subject: the New Columbia Co. > > Does anyone know if the New Columbia reproduction clothing company is > still in existence? It is my understanding that they went bankrupt, and are no longer in business. Also, over time, they had cut back their offerings to WWII and U.S. Civil War uniforms only. Nick Worthington ------------------------------ no name [11,3]CSuX:for sale: singer treadle sewing machine Subject: Re: For Sale: Singer Treadle Sewing Machine From: No Name Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 08:56:58 -0400 ... but I believe that putting "for sale" ads here very much violates the lists' purpose. Although this is something I wouldn't mind jumping on, I agree with Morghanna. This has been a wonderful source of info, but it is not the want ads. Lynda ------------------------------ william b. birner [31,4]CSuX:historic - designs or designer? Subject: Re: historic - designs or designer? From: "William B. Birner" Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 10:10:31 -0500 At 04:44 PM 5/30/97 -0500, Deb wrote: >Did the Galanos post talk about the COSTUMEs or just the designer? > >I scanned it briefly, and interpretted it as an advert sort of piece >about the designer (whom I hadn't heard of; sorry) and I didn't >notice anything interesting about costumes or clothing. So I >tossed it. > >I suspect many of us would be more comfortable discussing >the costumes of any period, but not necessarily the people >designing them. Sure and lets study this painting of flowers. But, of course, don't mention Van Gogh, how this item fits into his body of work, how it developed, and what it influenced in the history of art. We just want to study this painting - what color yellow is that and isn't the blue pretty. How wide is that brush stroke, dear? What kind of surface did he paint it on? How much more of a vacuum do we need to crawl into?. Let's remember Birner's second addage - A specialist is someone who studies more and more about less and less until he knows all there is to know about nothing. Ciao, Bill ------------- wbbirner@ix.netcom.com (William B. Birner) ------------------------------ r.l. shep [24,5]CSuX:riding habits 1790s Subject: Re: riding habits 1790s From: "R.L. Shep" Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 08:02:00 -0800 MorellEtc2@aol.com wrote: > > If you change f's to s it will give a new meaning to much of the text. I > much prefer to read the text of a historical work in its original form, long > s's and all. > > Mike Morell I apreciate your comments - but the only f's that are being changed are those that are indeed s's. The document has to be transcribed in any case and this will make is easier for the majority of the people to read. If you wih to read the original document then it is always possible to go to a place where it is available. The work is being done for good reasons and I believe to the benefit of most people, having asked a number of people what they felt would be the beter approach. ~!~ R.L. Shep ------------------------------ roxann barber [15,6]CSuX:worrying about h-costume Subject: Re: Worrying about h-costume From: Roxann Barber Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 11:14:41 -0700 Karren Schaeffer wrote: > > "Pay to download" Try a new service or sign off for a while. > Karren Karen, fortunately I get my e-mail free, but many do not have access to free time on-line at all, so it is not an option for many, and it is a big issue. Some areas of the world just do not have free access. Some near by nieghbors of mine did not because of the phone line set up! ------------------------------ dave e. [9,7]CSuX:german puff and slash Subject: German puff and slash From: "Dave E." Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 12:59:48 -0700 A question i hope u can answer. Im making a german puff and slash costume and am having trouble with the slashes. I am using linen for the over fabric which gets slashed and am having trouble with fraying. Any suggestions on how to keep my slops, canions and sleeves from unraveling? tnks Dave E. ------------------------------ mara riley [42,8]CSuX:h-costume digest - 23 may 1997 to 24 may 1997 Subject: Re: H-COSTUME Digest - 23 May 1997 to 24 May 1997 From: Mara Riley Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 18:25:50 -0400 In a message dated 97-05-27 10:44:26 EDT, alysea@JUNO.COM (Karen J Farris) writes: << In regards to the article about leines and Highland dress, the brat is not the same as the plaid. The brat was a celtic version, for the lack of a better term, of the Roman toga. It was wrapped around the body usually several times.It was sometimes plaid and may have been the precurser of the great kilt. I would love to hear discussion about this. Mistress Alysea of Ashley MKA Karen Farris The Dressmakers >> Mistress Alysea, I don't know why you think the _brat_ is the same as a toga, since the illustrations in the Book of Kells and other MS which show the _brat_ don't show it being worn in this way (i.e., wrapped around the chest and over one shoulder). Also, the toga was a half-circle, not a large square (though the Greek _himation_ was a square/rectangle). Saying that the brat was similar to the toga is one thing; saying that it's a Celtic version of a Roman garment is another. I think the similarities between the _himation_ and the _brat_ can be traced to a common technology: the warp-weighted loom. If you make a large rectangle of fabric, the easiest way to use it is to wrap it around your body as a cloak. The warp-weighted loom spread into northern Europe in the Neolithic and Bronze ages. A large mantle of checkered twill (the Thorsberg cloak) was found in southwestern Sweden; it is estimated that this mantle dates from between 1800 to 1000 BC. (Barber, _Ancient Textiles_, p. 192). This cloak was fairly large and had fringes and is very much like the descriptions of brats that we have from later Irish sources. This shows that this kind of cloak was in use among northern Europeans long before the amber routes to the Baltic were established. Cheers, Corbie ------------------------------ mara riley [18,9]CSuX:late 13th cen. cloaks Subject: Re: Late 13th Cen. cloaks From: Mara Riley Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 18:25:53 -0400 In a message dated 97-05-27 22:32:15 EDT, cvirtue@WELL.COM (Cynthia Virtue) writes: << (snip) The strap on my cloak of this sort tends to be about 10" long (the part that shows, that is) and, just like the pictures, you have to hold it with one finger/hand in order not to garrote yourself. (snip) Cynthia >> Has anyone tried putting lead weights in the ends of the cloak to weight it down in front? I don't have a cloak of this kind, but I think this might help. Corbie ------------------------------ mara riley [29,10]CSuX:late 13th cen. cloaks Subject: Re: Late 13th Cen. cloaks From: Mara Riley Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 18:25:54 -0400 In a message dated 97-05-28 11:59:32 EDT, holsten@NATURE.BERKELEY.EDU (Donna Holsten) writes: << I've seen literally dozens of pictures/sculptures from this period showing a "collar" of some sort. A couple of pictures in Davenport show them, as well as in several other books. (Oddly enough, I had a hard time finding costume info on 1250 - 1300 in *costume* books, but my husband has a couple of medieval *jewelery* books that have great pictures from this period.) Most of the pictures/sculptures show the "collars" lying flat, although one or two show them standing up a bit. Most of them look to be just an inch or two, although I've seen a couple that look like they could be several inches--almost like a modern coat collar! Donna (holsten@nature.berkeley.edu) >> Donna, You might get this effect by attaching the strap to the front of the cloak a few inches inside the edge, instead of directly to the edge itself. This would allow the edge of the cloak to stand up some along the neck. Corbie ------------------------------ End of H-COSTUME Digest - 30 May 1997 to 31 May 1997 **************************************************** automatic digest processor [14,11]CSuX:h-costume digest - 31 may 1997 to 1 jun 1997 Subject: H-COSTUME Digest - 31 May 1997 to 1 Jun 1997 From: Automatic digest processor Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 00:00:30 -0400 There are 19 messages totalling 564 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Xena (2) 2. 13th Century cloaks - (longish) (2) 3. Late 13th Cen. cloaks (9) 4. 18th c. Livery Coats (2) 5. What is historic costume? 6. When does it become historical? -Reply (2) 7. duplicate mail ---------------------------------------------------------------------- tim allison [8,12]CSuX:xena Subject: Re: Xena From: Tim Allison Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 23:55:47 -0500 Why not discuss this topic on the fantasy costume list? Not only because the costumes are not intended to be what was worn in any particular time period, but because most of the subscribers to that list will be interested. And there's a lot less traffic there. Carol Mitchell ------------------------------ kaoswarior@vcnet.com[15,13]CSuX:xena Subject: Re: Xena From: KaosWarior@VCNET.COM Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 23:41:52 -0800 At 11:55 PM 5/31/97, Tim Allison wrote: >Why not discuss this topic on the fantasy costume list? Not only because >the costumes are not intended to be what was worn in any particular time >period, but because most of the subscribers to that list will be >interested. And there's a lot less traffic there. >Carol Mitchell If your refering to the "Gilbert & Sullivan" blurb, I thought that many people would find it funny & that all. I apologize if there are any felt it was inappropriate :-( Scott ------------------------------ maggie percival [64,14]CSuX:13th century cloaks - (longish) Subject: 13th Century cloaks - (longish) From: Maggie Percival Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 12:48:02 +0100 Hi everyone, > Donna wrote > ><< I've seen literally dozens of pictures/sculptures from this period showing >a > "collar" of some sort. A couple of pictures in Davenport show them, as well > as in several other books. and Corbie added > >You might get this effect by attaching the strap to the front of the cloak a >few inches inside the edge, instead of directly to the edge itself. This >would allow the edge of the cloak to stand up some along the neck. For anyone else interested in this period I would recommend that you try to get hold of "Medieval Costume in England and France" by M. Houston, originally published by A & C Black back in 1939 but someone on this list mentioned that it had recently been reprinted but I don't have the details for that. Houston does cover the thirteenth century in some detail. Another thought is that it might be worth looking for clues in cloaks worn early in the fourteenth century. It's worth bearing in mind that fashions did not change anything like as rapidly as they do today and some styles worn early in the fourteenth century may well have been worn in the latter part of the thirteenth century. However, for immediate use Houston does mention a couple of cloaks and gives diagrams of them and how they may have been constructed. She mentions a semicircular cloak which was worn for centuries and lasted into the thirteenth century. Of this she says "It was worn in various ways, either fastened with a brooch on the right shoulder (this method more commonly by men), or was wrapped round the figure in various ways, and it was occasionally worn with opening at centre front" (p.3 of my copy which is the 1939 edition). I've gone through my copy of Davenport and the only "collars" I have found on cloak type garments are on ecclesiastical costume (fig. 471 page 164 of my edition of Davenport) which are also shown by Houston, again on ecclesiastical clothing. Houston does explain the feature whilst describing copes: "The word was identical with cape and was used until comparatively modern times as an outdoor dress by the clergy or laity. The word pluviale (rain cloak) used by the Roman Church indicates its original use. By the thirteenth century it had taken on its present semi- curcular shape. The hood which was once attached to it had disappeared except in simulation." (p.30 of my copy). So there you are. I suspect that the "collar" you are seeing is actually the simulated hood - which may give you a good idea as to how it should be constructed. Having said all this, I have only seen this feature on ecclesiastical dress. If you are going for civillian wear then I think you will have to go for the semi-circular cloak described above. Hope all this lot helps. -- Maggie Percival ------------------------------ gia gavino-gattshall [33,15]CSuX:late 13th cen. cloaks Subject: Re: Late 13th Cen. cloaks From: Gia Gavino-Gattshall Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 06:43:53 -0700 ---------- > From: Mara Riley > Date: Saturday, May 31, 1997 3:25 PM > > In a message dated 97-05-27 22:32:15 EDT, cvirtue@WELL.COM (Cynthia Virtue) > writes: > > << (snip) The strap on my cloak of this sort tends to be about 10" long (the > part > that shows, that is) and, just like the pictures, you have to hold it with > one finger/hand in order not to garrote yourself. > (snip) > Cynthia >> > > Has anyone tried putting lead weights in the ends of the cloak to weight it > down in front? I don't have a cloak of this kind, but I think this might > help. > > Corbie Yeah, but wouldn't you get bruised from when the weights continually hit your shin or other part of the leg when walking? Just curious... Gia ------------------------------ morghana@aol.com[23,16]CSuX:13th century cloaks - (longish) Subject: Re: 13th Century cloaks - (longish) From: Morghana@AOL.COM Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 13:02:50 -0400 In a message dated 97-06-01 08:42:40 EDT, maggie@IREADH.DEMON.CO.UK (Maggie Percival) writes: << For anyone else interested in this period I would recommend that you try to get hold of "Medieval Costume in England and France" by M. Houston, originally published by A & C Black back in 1939 but someone on this list mentioned that it had recently been reprinted but I don't have the details for that. >> In the US, it's been published by Dover Books. It's the complete 1939 version. Cover price (softbound) is $8.95 (US currency) and the ISBN is: 0-486-29060-3. I've found it quite interesting, though I wish the line drawings were more detailed. Nonetheless, it is a valuable resource in the costumer's library. Hope this helps. :) ~Morghana ------------------------------ ella lynoure rajamaki [18,17]CSuX:late 13th cen. cloaks Subject: Re: Late 13th Cen. cloaks From: Ella Lynoure Rajamaki Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 20:32:40 +2 > > << (snip) The strap on my cloak of this sort tends to be about 10" long > > (the part that shows, that is) and, just like the pictures, you have to > > hold it with one finger/hand in order not to garrote yourself. I have a cloak of that kind (half-circle, about 10" long strap) and it doesn't garrote me unless I push the heavy cloak fabric away from covering my arms so that the cloak hangs on the strap only without the support it usually gets from my shoulders. Maybe it helps to adjust the strap length so the cloak fits snugly over the shoulders. -------(c) 1997----------------* lynoure@iki.fi * Ella Lynoure Rajamaki----------*http://www.iki.fi/~lynoure* ------------------------------------------------------------ a small chaotic multi-era creature.------------------------- ------------------------------ mara riley [47,18]CSuX:late 13th cen. cloaks Subject: Re: Late 13th Cen. cloaks From: Mara Riley Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 13:55:24 -0400 In a message dated 97-06-01 10:13:40 EDT, ggavino@serv.net (Gia Gavino-Gattshall) writes: << ---------- > From: Mara Riley > Date: Saturday, May 31, 1997 3:25 PM > > In a message dated 97-05-27 22:32:15 EDT, cvirtue@WELL.COM (Cynthia Virtue) > writes: > > << (snip) The strap on my cloak of this sort tends to be about 10" long (the > part > that shows, that is) and, just like the pictures, you have to hold it with > one finger/hand in order not to garrote yourself. > (snip) > Cynthia >> > > Has anyone tried putting lead weights in the ends of the cloak to weight it > down in front? I don't have a cloak of this kind, but I think this might > help. > > Corbie > Not necessarily. If the cloak is a good, thick wool, then the weights would be padded by the wool (you'd sew them inside the front hem), and if you're using small fishing weights, they wouldn't need to be that big or heavy to counter the weight of the cloak in back. I actually used a few pennies inside the front hem of my hubby's cloak for this purpose (it was a lightweight wool, and I needed something flat) and it works pretty well. Though if I were to do it again, I'd wrap the pennies in a bit of cotton or something -- I put two or three pennies per side, and sometimes they rub together and make it sound like he's jingling the change in his pockets as he walks. Corbie ------------------------------ no name [19,19]CSuX:18th c. livery coats Subject: 18th c. Livery Coats From: No Name Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 15:47:53 -0400 Dear List- Our company is making eleven c.1740 livery coats and the designer is interested in keeping strictly to the period. However..... He wants the coats to have collars which we cannot find any research for. All the coats seem not to have collars in 1740. The research that he has provided us is a painting of a coat hanging on a wall and barely an inch and a half in size. To say the least we don't know what he is talking about. Does anyone know of a book that would show this collar he is speaking of ? Part of our trouble is that there is a language barrier and his drawing is based on the above painting I mentioned. Thanks- Becky Kaufman ------------------------------ paul c. dickie [15,20]CSuX:what is historic costume? Subject: Re: What is historic costume? From: "Paul C. Dickie" Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 15:31:36 +0100 In article <3.0.32.19970530160802.006b9450@popd.ix.netcom.com>, "William B. Birner" wrote: >At 09:40 AM 5/30/97 -0700, Frances Grimble wrote: >>Just a vanity thing, but I'd prefer the definition of "historic" to >>cover only periods before I personally was born. >> >>Fran Grimble >Shoot. In some of our cases that wouldn't leave much :-) fran means "born this time round", Bill... ;-) < Paul > ------------------------------ paul c. dickie [12,21]CSuX:when does it become historical? -reply Subject: Re: When does it become historical? -Reply From: "Paul C. Dickie" Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 15:46:21 +0100 In article , Nora Cannon wrote: >This discussion reminds me of the problem posed by one of my Modern >American Architecture professor - "What are "they" going to call >"modern" architecture when it is 200 years old?" Ghastly? ;-) < Paul > ------------------------------ cynthia virtue [43,22]CSuX:late 13th cen. cloaks Subject: Re: Late 13th Cen. cloaks From: Cynthia Virtue Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 14:41:34 -0700 Corbie suggested: >Has anyone tried putting lead weights in the ends of the cloak to weight it >down in front? I don't have a cloak of this kind, but I think this might >help. I should have been more precise: The half-circle cloak I have garrotes me only if I'm moving forward -- presumably pulled back by the fabric that drags on the ground in the back. I just took it out of the closet and fiddled around with it for a bit; if there are folks reading that don't have such a thing and are curious for more details read on. Those of you with them probably have had similar experiences. The cloak is an exact half circle. The radius is the distance from the back of my neck to the floor, plus an inch or two; the fabric is a lightweight tabby wool that you can see some outlines through if you hold it across your eyes in very bright light. Total weight of garment is about a pound, if I can trust the bathroom scale. The edges are heavier than the body due to trim. The 'strap' is about a foot long and attaches on either side of the center point at about 6" out on either side. When worn, the sides of the cloak come from the neck and pass on the outside of my breasts. When I make a man wear it, they hang in a similar configuration, although a bit straighter. The strap is loose at this point. Moving around, or moving my arms, causes the cloak to gradually creep backwards. If I move the strap fastening points another 6" down the front, the excess material at the neck (the peak of the cone formed) begins to resemble a hood, as it collapses across the shoulders. If the fabric were stiffer, or were lined in fur, it might stand up like a 'real collar' or like the Uta picture. Maybe. Cynthia --- Cynthia Virtue, or sometimes Lady Cynthia du Pre Argent "Such virtue hath my pen...." -Shakespeare, Sonnet LXXXI "I knew this wasn't _my_ pen!" --Cynthia V. ------------------------------ karren schaeffer [15,23]CSuX:late 13th cen. cloaks Subject: Re: Late 13th Cen. cloaks From: Karren Schaeffer Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 16:09:38 -0700 Gia, The weights (like used in draperies) are not that heavy. I don't see how they would create bruises unless you ran with the cape, in which case it should billow behind attractively. I read somewhere that Queen Elizabeth and her mother both have all of the hems of their dresses routinely weighted in order to avoid billowing hemlines on a breezy day and an chance for embarassing photos. The article described something like a string of weights much like the beaded chains used for I.D. tags in the military. Karren ------------------------------ gia gavino-gattshall [67,24]CSuX:late 13th cen. cloaks Subject: Re: Late 13th Cen. cloaks From: Gia Gavino-Gattshall Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 16:06:50 -0700 ---------- > From: Mara Riley > > In a message dated 97-06-01 10:13:40 EDT, ggavino@serv.net (Gia > Gavino-Gattshall) writes: > > << ---------- > > From: Mara Riley > > Date: Saturday, May 31, 1997 3:25 PM > > > > In a message dated 97-05-27 22:32:15 EDT, cvirtue@WELL.COM (Cynthia > Virtue) > > writes: > > > > << (snip) The strap on my cloak of this sort tends to be about 10" long > (the > > part > > that shows, that is) and, just like the pictures, you have to hold it > with > > one finger/hand in order not to garrote yourself. > > (snip) > > Cynthia >> > > > > Has anyone tried putting lead weights in the ends of the cloak to weight > it > > down in front? I don't have a cloak of this kind, but I think this might > > help. > > > > Corbie > > < Just curious... > < Gia >> > > Not necessarily. If the cloak is a good, thick wool, then the weights would > be padded by the wool (you'd sew them inside the front hem), and if you're > using small fishing weights, they wouldn't need to be that big or heavy to > counter the weight of the cloak in back. I actually used a few pennies > inside the front hem of my hubby's cloak for this purpose (it was a > lightweight wool, and I needed something flat) and it works pretty well. > Though if I were to do it again, I'd wrap the pennies in a bit of cotton or > something -- I put two or three pennies per side, and sometimes they rub > together and make it sound like he's jingling the change in his pockets as he > walks. > > Corbie And there's also the weight cord (I don't know what they are called) that you can find in the drapery section of the fabric stores. This look like piping cord, but it's actually weighted. Wouldn't they go in nicely along the front lower edge? Seems to me this product would bend easily around curves, too. Gia ------------------------------ gia gavino-gattshall [26,25]CSuX:late 13th cen. cloaks Subject: Re: Late 13th Cen. cloaks From: Gia Gavino-Gattshall Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 16:11:20 -0700 Karren, I didn't know. Thanks for letting me know. The only time I've heard of someone putting weights in their hems, a friend of mine did once in a dress, and she ended up taking them out becuase she had got bruises from the weights. I think it's because she danced in the dress :-) Gia ---------- > From: Karren Schaeffer > > Gia, > > The weights (like used in draperies) are not that heavy. I don't see > how they would create bruises unless you ran with the cape, in which > case it should billow behind attractively. I read somewhere that Queen > Elizabeth and her mother both have all of the hems of their dresses > routinely weighted in order to avoid billowing hemlines on a breezy day > and an chance for embarassing photos. The article described something > like a string of weights much like the beaded chains used for I.D. tags > in the military. > > Karren ------------------------------ j&b [16,26]CSuX:18th c. livery coats Subject: Re: 18th c. Livery Coats From: J&B Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 19:41:32 +0000 No Name wrote: > Does anyone know of a book that would show this collar he is speaking of ? Dear Becky - it's not a pic of the painting, but p44 in REVOLUTION IN FASHION (Kyoto Costume Inst, Abbeville Press) shows liveryish leather coats c.1760-70 with the kind of collar I surmise your guy is going for. good luck James Middleton ------------------------------ william b. birner [22,27]CSuX:when does it become historical? -reply Subject: Re: When does it become historical? -Reply From: "William B. Birner" Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 20:45:27 -0500 At 03:46 PM 6/1/97 +0100, Paul C. Dickie wrote: >In article , Nora Cannon > wrote: >>This discussion reminds me of the problem posed by one of my Modern >>American Architecture professor - "What are "they" going to call >>"modern" architecture when it is 200 years old?" > >Ghastly? ;-) Mostly barren. Some exciting, hardly innovative except in materials. Ciao, (Bill) WBBirner wbbirner@ix.netcom.com _________________ Don't take life so seriously. It's not like its permanent. ------------------------------ william b. birner [21,28]CSuX:late 13th cen. cloaks Subject: Re: Late 13th Cen. cloaks From: "William B. Birner" Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 20:49:02 -0500 At 04:06 PM 6/1/97 -0700, Gia Gavino-Gattshall wrote: > >And there's also the weight cord (I don't know what they are called) that >you can find in the drapery section of the fabric stores. This look like >piping cord, but it's actually weighted. Wouldn't they go in nicely along >the front lower edge? Seems to me this product would bend easily around >curves, too. I imagine they still make the woven cotton cording with the buckshot/bb's in it. I don't know why I assume it but it was a great product when I used it for weighting light draperies, etc. years ago. Ciao, Bill ------------- wbbirner@ix.netcom.com (William B. Birner) ------------------------------ no name [6,29]CSuX:duplicate mail Subject: duplicate mail From: No Name Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 22:53:32 -0400 All of a sudden I am getting two of every post. What is happening? Becky Kaufman ------------------------------ ella lynoure rajamaki [21,30]CSuX:late 13th cen. cloaks Subject: Re: Late 13th Cen. cloaks From: Ella Lynoure Rajamaki Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 06:57:44 +2 On 1 Jun 97 at 14:41, Cynthia Virtue wrote: > I should have been more precise: The half-circle cloak I have garrotes me > only if I'm moving forward -- presumably pulled back by the fabric that > drags on the ground in the back. Maybe that's the reason. Mine is only ankle lenght and so doesn't drag on the ground. -------(c) 1997----------------* lynoure@tuug.org * Ella Lynoure Rajamaki----------*http://www.tuug.org/~lynoure* ------------------------------------------------------------- a small chaotic multi-era creature.-------------------------- ------------------------------ End of H-COSTUME Digest - 31 May 1997 to 1 Jun 1997 *************************************************** h-costume-digest-approval@world.std.com (h-costume-digest)[8,31]CSuX:h-costume-digest v1 #1 Subject: h-costume-digest V1 #1 From: h-costume-digest-approval@world.std.com (h-costume-digest) Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 11:21:22 -0400 (EDT) h-costume-digest Monday, June 2 1997 Volume 01 : Number 001 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- eliz@world.std.com (elizabeth lear)[4,32]CSuX:is this thing on? Subject: H-COST: Is this thing on? From: eliz@world.std.com (Elizabeth Lear) Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 15:54:36 -0400 Test, please ignore. ------------------------------ mary-gayle jany [14,33]CSuX:is this thing on? Subject: Re: H-COST: Is this thing on? From: "Mary-Gayle Jany" Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 16:26:26 -0500 Yes, Elizabeth, you're "on." - ---------- > From: Elizabeth Lear > To: h-costume@world.std.com > Subject: H-COST: Is this thing on? > Date: Thursday, May 22, 1997 2:54 PM > > > > Test, please ignore. ------------------------------ teddy [30,34]CSuX:distressing Subject: H-COST: Re: distressing From: TEDDY Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 10:07:49 +0000 (GMT) A couple of methods I've seen used are; Bleaching Use a mild solution of bleach in a spray bottle (like the ones used for spraying plants with water/insecticides) to spray the areas of the garment where you want the fading to show. I've seen this done on a cotton velvet dress to create a contrast between the outside of the folds/pleats and the insides where the fabric is not touched by the bleach and is more in the shadows as well. General aging and making tattered. A friend artificially aged a costume by tying it to the back of her boyfriend's motor-bike and sending him to drive around an empty car- park for half an hour, dragging the costume as he went. It worked wonderfully to create a costume that had "seen better days" Hope this helps Teddy teddy1@mdx.ac.uk ====================== Bibliographical Services Dept. * If a costume's worth * Middlesex University * making, it's worth * Bounds Green Road * making well enough * London, N11 2NQ * for every-day wear. * England ====================== Tel No.(0181) 362 6405 ------------------------------ albertcat@aol.com[27,35]CSuX:distressing Subject: Re: H-COST: Re: distressing From: AlbertCat@aol.com Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 08:25:29 -0400 (EDT) The trick in "Teching"...the movie term for distressing... is to think carefully about how clothes wear. You know how your own clothes wear out & the same is true of period stuff. Dirt collects at the opening of pockets, around buttonholes, the neck, cuffs, hems. Elbows wear thru as well as knees, & seats. Paint & dye are the best for grime...under arms, on necks [this is getting disgusting isn't it]...diluted in a spray bottle. Stay away from black unless you're doing soot. Try using the complimentary color of the garment. For example, if the gown is red, dirty up the hem w/ a green-gray, if blue, try an orangey brown.....you get the picture. Try not to use too much bleach as it weakens the fabric. Diluted white paint works well for a bleached look w/out stripping fibers. For wear & tear get out the circular sander & cheese grater. Again, holes & tears weaken the garment. I've put net behind worn places on costumes that still have to last the run of the show. For general oldness...wash the whole, made up garment....it'll never be the same. Fabric choices can really enhance you "old look". Nubbly, picky fabrics help as well as gausey stuffs. The wrong side of many prints already look faded. Think of the logic of the wear & tear & stains, be creative & have some fun. It's not often you get to legitimately destroy something. ------------------------------ elizabeth lear [15,36]CSuX:when does it become historical? Subject: H-COST: Re: When does it become historical? From: Elizabeth Lear Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 16:02:51 -0400 >Is it possible to get a copy of this charter, either posted for all or >sent individually? Send mail to majordomo@world.std.com with the message intro h-costume ...eliz ------------------------------ eliz@world.std.com (elizabeth lear)[70,37]CSuX:from the list owner Subject: H-COST: from the list owner From: eliz@world.std.com (Elizabeth Lear) Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 16:30:43 -0400 I really do not have time to moderate this list, so I need the cooperation of the list subscribers to keep discussions on topic. This list has always been about *re-creating period costume*. Meta-discussions take away from all that, and this time period discussion is doing exactly that. Sometimes discussions will come up that fall outside of the outlined time period. If you ignore them or bring them to my attention, things will get back to productive discussions much faster. Here is the charter for the list as set down by Diane, the originator of the list. If you have a problem with the charter or with a discussion topic on this list, *please take the issue up with me* instead of complaining to the list. I'm sure everyone is quite tired of the arguments and flames on the list. I'm quite happy to address the perceived problem with the poster off of the list. I've stepped in like that a number of times while babysitting these and other lists for Diane in the past. ...eliz The intro file for this list: This list concentrates on re-creating period costume, from the Bronze age to the mid-20th Century. Its emphasis is on accurate historical reproduction of clothing, historical techniques for garment construction, as well as the application of those techniques in modern clothing design. Other topics appropriate for discussion include adapting historical clothing for the modern figure, clothing evolution, theatrical costumes, patterns, materials, books, and sources for supplies. Shows, museums, galleries and publications suitable for education or inspiration, training opportunities available through schools and workshops, design and motivational issues, collective group projects, and exchanges of materials are all also of interest to this list. Wig making, accessory and makeup issues, where pertinent to the overall design of the costume, are also acceptable topics. Advertisements or announcements for historical costumed events are allowed, but general discussions regarding the groups or organizations that sponsor costumed events is discouraged. Those of you in groups that focus on costuming of a specific type (medieval re-creation, war reenactment, science fiction and fantasy, etc.) should refrain from using this list for group-specific socializing, promotion, or persona fabrication. For that type of conversation, please use your organization's own newsgroup or mailing list, which has been specifically set up to encourage those types of discussions. Example: SCA folks should use rec.org.sca for general converations about the SCA. Also inappropriate for this list are advertisements for vintage clothing, for sale or wanted; for those, use the vintage clothing mailing list (vintage@world.std.com), rec.antiques.marketplace, rec.crafts.marketplace or alt.fashion. Personal chat, discussion of family life, and other such non-fiber topics should be kept to private e-mail, or to other mailing lists setup specifically to encourage it. Please respect all copyright laws when using this list. Practically speaking, that means you should post references or explain how to get instructions, rather than copying those instructions from some other publication or post (without permission of that author). It's this list's policy that individual articles submitted to this list are the property of the author of the post. Do not repost articles from this list in _any_ forum without the original author's consent. (end) ------------------------------ alan kerr [20,38]CSuX:digetst vs non digest problems (was from the list owner) Subject: digetst vs non digest problems (was Re: H-COST: from the list owner) From: Alan Kerr Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 15:50:29 -0600 (MDT) perhaps you can help with a problem that I'm having with the h-costume list. 1) I get it as the digest form. this is what I want. 2) about a week ago, I started getting individual messages (non digest) *in addition* to the digest form. I do not want this. can you see if there is some sort of glitch with the list? thanks. Alan W. Kerr awkerr@aoc.nrao.edu National Radio Astronomy Observatory VLBA Correlator Operations Socorro, NM, USA Whee!(tm) ------------------------------ alan kerr [16,39]CSuX:digetst vs non digest problems : fixed! Subject: H-COST: Re: digetst vs non digest problems : FIXED! From: Alan Kerr Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 16:29:33 -0600 (MDT) nevermind! someone has already emailed me and pointed out that I had read the "list move message" wrong. thanks! ....damn, don't remember turning senile.... :-) Alan W. Kerr awkerr@aoc.nrao.edu National Radio Astronomy Observatory VLBA Correlator Operations Socorro, NM, USA Whee!(tm) ------------------------------ tim allison [24,40]CSuX:digetst vs non digest problems (was from the list owner) Subject: Re: digetst vs non digest problems (was Re: H-COST: from the list owner) From: Tim Allison Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 22:50:45 -0500 (CDT) At 3:50 PM -0600 5/30/97, Alan Kerr is rumored to have typed: > perhaps you can help with a problem that I'm having with the > h-costume list. > > 1) I get it as the digest form. this is what I want. > 2) about a week ago, I started getting individual messages (non > digest) *in addition* to the digest form. I do not want this. > > can you see if there is some sort of glitch with the list? > > thanks. > > > Alan W. Kerr > I have the same problem. Carol Mitchell ------------------------------ ches [58,41]CSuX:digest vs non digest problems Subject: H-COST: Re: digest Vs non digest problems From: "ches" Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 07:21:37 -0500 This is due to many individuals that do not know how to use their mail program. It is not because they are new to the system it is because they are trying out a new mail system that the provider gave them or that was upgraded from what they were using before. I am a tech support type and deal with this all day every day, the problem that is. When the individual hits reply some programs will ask if you want to reply to the FROM address or to all individuals. You want the FROM address. Look at the from address and make sure it says h-costume.... in it and this will solve the problem. Delay the email from sending so that you can look at it to make sure it is going to the right address. If it is not call your ISP and ask them to help you use your reply button. If all else fails hit forward and fill in the email address from your address book. When you hit forward no addresses will show up in your TO: field. You will have to change the FW: to RE: in the Subject field. You all have no idea how you hurt your fellow Cyber surfers when you yell at them and not even suggest a productive way to solve their problem. I deal with them daily and they are very hurt and angry that the mail program is not "working" right. I take the blame and tell them how to fix it. I am nice to them, you can be nice to them too. No I will not give individual support beyond this message, it is after hours. I need a break too...this is not an email address from the ISP I work for. Ciao Ches "Give me a kiss to build a dream on and my imagination will thrive upon that dream. " - - Duke Ellington - ---------- : From: Tim Allison : To: h-costume@world.std.com : Subject: Re: digetst vs non digest problems (was Re: H-COST: from thelist owner) : Date: Friday, May 30, 1997 10:50 PM : : At 3:50 PM -0600 5/30/97, Alan Kerr is rumored to have typed: : : : > perhaps you can help with a problem that I'm having with the : > h-costume list. : > : > 1) I get it as the digest form. this is what I want. : > 2) about a week ago, I started getting individual messages (non : > digest) *in addition* to the digest form. I do not want this. : > : > can you see if there is some sort of glitch with the list? : > : > thanks. : > : > : > Alan W. Kerr : > : I have the same problem. : Carol Mitchell : : ------------------------------ janice e. gee [5,42]CSuX:digest Subject: H-COST: digest From: "Janice E. Gee" Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 09:19:34 -0400 set H-costume digest ------------------------------ april deptula [17,43]CSuX:concerns? Subject: H-COST: concerns? From: April Deptula Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 12:35:15 CDT I personaly have felt in the last couple of weeks that the preaching and lecturing and attacks on "non-releveant" items is far more tedious, fivolous and in some cases more useless then the posts that are being complained about. You can not acuratly deal with history with out taking a total veiw of it, including what might be consdidered fivolous or minor things because those still affeat society and culture which directly affect clothing. Don't forget what you consider everyday wear may be considered costume in as little as 20 years. even opera was pop culture once.... April ------------------------------ lneheart@vianet.on.ca[38,44]CSuX:what is historic costume? Subject: H-COST: Re: What is historic costume? From: lneheart@vianet.on.ca Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 16:36:36 -0400 >X-Sender: wbbirner@popd.ix.netcom.com >Mime-Version: 1.0 >Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 16:08:03 -0500 >Reply-To: "William B. Birner" >Sender: Historic Costume List >From: "William B. Birner" >Subject: Re: What is historic costume? >To: Multiple recipients of list H-COSTUME > > >At 09:40 AM 5/30/97 -0700, Frances Grimble wrote: >>Just a vanity thing, but I'd prefer the definition of "historic" to >>cover only periods before I personally was born. >> >>Fran Grimble >Shoot. In some of our cases that wouldn't leave much :-) > > >Ciao, > Bill I tend to agree with Bill. Frankly, if it's in my past, whether I'm alive or not, then it's historical. Some of it just isn't 'antique'. And the official ICG definition is 'Anything before today.' BTW, TYK for the charter. I've been on the list about a year and I'd never seen it before. Didn't even know there was one. Lone Heart, lneheart@vianet.on.ca So many ideas, so little time! FCW3s/FF3c A- C D+++m H+++ M+ P++++ R+ T+++ W- Z Sf++ RLAT a++ c++m d! e+ f++++ h++++ i+ p sf** ------------------------------ cj brunette [9,45]CSuX:renaissance festival costuming Subject: H-COST: Re: Renaissance Festival Costuming From: "CJ Brunette" Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 22:59:13 -0500 Could anyone help me out with a personal issue? I would appreciate hearing from you if you have any experience with management of any festivals regarding costuming. Just let me know privately and I will spell out my current problems. Thanks in advance. - --CarolJane in Minneapolis ------------------------------ margo anderson [20,46]CSuX:renaissance festival costuming Subject: Re: H-COST: Re: Renaissance Festival Costuming From: Margo Anderson Date: Fri, 31 May 1996 21:42:18 -0700 At 10:59 PM 5/31/97 -0500, you wrote: >Could anyone help me out with a personal issue? I would appreciate hearing >from you if you have any experience with management of any festivals >regarding costuming. Just let me know privately and I will spell out my >current problems. > Hi Carol. Actually, I haven't had problems with management, because I've been careful to take measures not to. If you would let me know what your issues are, I might have some ideas that would work for you, too. Let me know! Margo Anderson ------------------------------ gia gavino-gattshall [76,47]CSuX:digest vs non digest problems Subject: Re: H-COST: Re: digest Vs non digest problems From: "Gia Gavino-Gattshall" Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 06:38:47 -0700 Bravo, Ches!! You are so right! I had all sorts of email problems and I fixed them by going to my server until they were fixed. and they were really nice about it too! Gia - ---------- > From: ches > To: h-costume@world.std.com > Subject: H-COST: Re: digest Vs non digest problems > Date: Saturday, May 31, 1997 5:21 AM > > This is due to many individuals that do not know how to use their mail program. It is not > because they are new to the system it is because they are trying out a new mail system > that the provider gave them or that was upgraded from what they were using before. I am a > tech support type and deal with this all day every day, the problem that is. >snip > > You all have no idea how you hurt your fellow Cyber surfers when you yell at them and not > even suggest a productive way to solve their problem. I deal with them daily and they are > very hurt and angry that the mail program is not "working" right. I take the blame and > tell them how to fix it. I am nice to them, you can be nice to them too. > > No I will not give individual support beyond this message, it is after hours. I need a > break too...this is not an email address from the ISP I work for. > > Ciao > Ches > > "Give me a kiss to build a dream on and my imagination will thrive upon that dream. " > - Duke Ellington > > ---------- > : From: Tim Allison > : To: h-costume@world.std.com > : Subject: Re: digetst vs non digest problems (was Re: H-COST: from thelist owner) > : Date: Friday, May 30, 1997 10:50 PM > : > : At 3:50 PM -0600 5/30/97, Alan Kerr is rumored to have typed: > : > : > : > perhaps you can help with a problem that I'm having with the > : > h-costume list. > : > > : > 1) I get it as the digest form. this is what I want. > : > 2) about a week ago, I started getting individual messages (non > : > digest) *in addition* to the digest form. I do not want this. > : > > : > can you see if there is some sort of glitch with the list? > : > > : > thanks. > : > > : > > : > Alan W. Kerr > : > > : I have the same problem. > : Carol Mitchell > : > : ------------------------------ glenn and shanda grieb [18,48]CSuX:concerns? Subject: Re: H-COST: concerns? From: Glenn and Shanda Grieb Date: Sun, 01 Jun 1997 11:41:18 -0500 April Deptula wrote: > > I personaly have felt in the last couple of weeks that the preaching and > lecturing and attacks on "non-releveant" items is far more tedious, fivolous and > in some cases more useless then the posts that are being complained about. Hear, hear! Could we just get on with enjoying each others offerings? Except for the occassional flames, I really haven't seen anything posted here that I objected to. I do skip over a lot of things that aren't of interest to me personally, but I don't have a problem with doing that. This "non-relevant" thread is really getting boring, hence, this will be the last post you see from me on this matter. Let's talk about something fun! :) Shanda ------------------------------ glenn and shanda grieb [23,49]CSuX:german puff and slash Subject: H-COST: Re: German puff and slash From: Glenn and Shanda Grieb Date: Sun, 01 Jun 1997 12:02:44 -0500 Dave E. wrote: > suggestions on how to keep my slops, canions and sleeves from unraveling? My first thought would be to employ the use of fray check. But, obviously this is not exactly period. Or, finish the raw edges of the slashing with facings. But, if I'm not mistaken, when I've studied the slashing in various portraits it appears to me that the edges are not finished, but allowed to fray somewhat. Perhaps the fabrics one uses is the key. I've seen leather used which, of course, doesn't fray so it isn't a problem. Are there particular fabrics that when slashed offer a controlled amount of fraying? Maybe linen wouldn't be your best choice. Could one perhaps stay stitch just inside the slashing and allow the fabric to fray just up to that point? Obviously I have just as many questions as you, so I will be anxiously awaiting the responses of others on this subject. I hope to attempt a German puff and slash garment myself at some point. Shanda ------------------------------ glenn and shanda grieb [23,50]CSuX:german puff and slash Subject: H-COST: Re: German puff and slash From: Glenn and Shanda Grieb Date: Sun, 01 Jun 1997 12:08:54 -0500 (snip)> Dave E. wrote: > >Any suggestions on how to keep my slops, canions and sleeves from >unraveling? My first thought would be to employ the use of fray check. But, obviously this is not exactly period. Or, finish the raw edges of the slashing with facings. But, if I'm not mistaken, when I've studied the slashing in various portraits it appears to me that the edges are not finished, but allowed to fray somewhat. Perhaps the fabrics one uses is the key. I've seen leather used which, of course, doesn't fray so it isn't a problem. Are there particular fabrics that when slashed offer a controlled amount of fraying? Maybe linen wouldn't be your best choice. Could one perhaps stay stitch just inside the slashing and allow the fabric to fray just up to that point? Obviously I have just as many questions as you, so I will be anxiously awaiting the responses of others on this subject. I hope to attempt a German puff and slash garment myself at some point. Shanda ------------------------------ glenn and shanda grieb [16,51]CSuX:xena Subject: H-COST: Re: Xena From: Glenn and Shanda Grieb Date: Sun, 01 Jun 1997 12:12:38 -0500 KaosWarior@VCNET.COM wrote: > If your refering to the "Gilbert & Sullivan" blurb (Xena opera), > I thought that many people would find it funny & that all. > I apologize if there are any felt it was inappropriate :-( > > Scott I guess I'd have to say it is off topic for this list, but personally, I found it very entertaining. Thanks Scott. And, smile...it wasn't so bad. Some people here just take it all too seriously! :) Shanda ------------------------------ joycelyn falsken [12,52]CSuX:concerns? Subject: Re: H-COST: concerns? From: Joycelyn Falsken Date: Sun, 01 Jun 1997 13:54:48 -0700 > Don't forget what you consider everyday wear may be considered costume in as > little as 20 years. > So what we're actually doing is getting a jump on future research! ;-) - -- Joycelyn jfalsken@ricochet.net ------------------------------ diana dills [19,53]CSuX:german puff and slash Subject: H-COST: Re: German puff and slash From: Diana Dills Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 15:29:27 -0700 (PDT) I have limited experience with this, but do a lot of 11th-13th c costuming...which has lead me to conclude that probably the most logical fabric choice for the slashed outer layers would be a fulled wool. I have gotten lightweight coating fabrics and melton cloth which, after a couple of spins through the heavy agitation cycle and the hot dryer, are fray proof almost no matter what you do to them. ...or you could do it the old fashioned way, by stomping and beating and boiling it in a big kettle.... :) DIANA DILLS *UWPD* ddills@u.washington.edu ------------------------------ maggiros@aol.com[24,54]CSuX:german puff and slash Subject: Re: H-COST: Re: German puff and slash From: MaggiRos@aol.com Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 18:53:16 -0400 (EDT) In a message dated 97-06-01 18:36:28 EDT, ddills@u.washington.edu (Diana Dills) writes: > > I have limited experience with this, but do a lot of 11th-13th c > costuming...which has lead me to conclude that probably the most > logical fabric choice for the slashed outer layers would be a > fulled wool. I have gotten lightweight coating fabrics and melton > cloth which, after a couple of spins through the heavy agitation cycle > and the hot dryer, are fray proof almost no matter what you do to them. > An excellant suggestion. Linen is probably just not going to work. If you're committed to it, you'll want to be sure to cut on the bias to limit fraying. My last German campfollower dress (in brushed denim) has diagonal cuttes on all the gardes, which I just left to fray. They frayed and rolled a bit then stopped. Depending on your social class, that fraying might contribute to your look. On sleeve panes, I line them with something brightly contrasting. MaggiRos ------------------------------ lea e harp tuley [30,55]CSuX:german puff and slash Subject: Re: H-COST: Re: German puff and slash From: lea e harp tuley Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 17:07:43 -0700 At 06:53 PM 6/1/97 -0400, you wrote: >An excellant suggestion. Linen is probably just not going to work. If >you're committed to it, you'll want to be sure to cut on the bias to limit >fraying. this brings to mind the only time i've gotten to see an Elizabethan doublet - - many, *many* years ago in an exhibit at the Los Angeles County Museum of Art - i was floored to find that the slashes, instead of being faced or otherwise finished (as we would expect, from modern techniques), were simply cut on the bias & allowed to fray. to my way of thinking, it gives a softer edge, with a more period, less "high-tech" look. lea bob "Some days you open the paper and it's kind of like finding Fidel Castro in the refrigerator, smoking a cigar. Hard to know what to think. For instance, when the lead story is that fourteen Dallas Cowboy Cheerleaders have resigned because they believe the team's new owner is trying to make them into sex objects. Says I to myself, "No doo-doo?" (That's the George Bush influence). Molly Ivins, in "Molly Ivins Can't Say That, Can She?" ------------------------------ asia reva poppers [24,56]CSuX:german puff and slash Subject: Re: H-COST: Re: German puff and slash From: Asia Reva Poppers Date: Sun, 01 Jun 1997 20:07:09 -0400 Dave E. wrote: > suggestions on how to keep my slops, canions and sleeves from unraveling? In addition to all of the other great suggestions made so far, it should be noted that even a fabric that is likely to fray some will fray less if slashed on the bias instead of on the straight or cross grain. Besides using fabrics that tended not to ravel, you'll notice from period illustrations that the folks who made the originals tended to do a lot of slashing on the bias. This would not combine too well with trying to whip stitch over the edges of the slashes in order to stabilize them, but would do really well in combination with machine-stitching around the outside of the slash, as someone else suggested. Another way to avoid fraying problems is to use bands of fabric, one to four inches wide, to decorate a garment, and then slash those after they've been sewn on, to let the original garment color show through the slashing. The fact that they're stitched down to another layer of fabric prevents them from shifting around in ways that would aggrivate ravelling. I think this was more commonly done on women's clothes, though. ------------------------------ joycelyn falsken [32,57]CSuX:late 13th cen. cloaks Subject: H-COST: Re: Late 13th Cen. cloaks From: Joycelyn Falsken Date: Sun, 01 Jun 1997 17:11:01 -0700 Corbie wrote: > > Not necessarily. If the cloak is a good, thick wool, then the weights would > be padded by the wool (you'd sew them inside the front hem), and if you're > using small fishing weights, they wouldn't need to be that big or heavy to > counter the weight of the cloak in back. I actually used a few pennies > inside the front hem of my hubby's cloak for this purpose (it was a > lightweight wool, and I needed something flat) and it works pretty well. > Though if I were to do it again, I'd wrap the pennies in a bit of cotton or > something -- There are weights in a 1890's walking suit I have and they are similar to the round flat weights one can obtain from most any well stocked home decorating department-- they come in several sizes depending on the kind of material they're used with. In examining my jacket, I've noticed that the weights are each individually covered with the wool of the jacket, then tacked inside the hem or lining near the hem. This is a gtood method to keep the weights from shifting as it's worn, but also to pad it from wearing the fabric out at that spot. To cover the weights, one would cut a circle of fabric large enough to completely cover top and bottom when a gathering thread is run around the circumference and drawn up, not unlike covering a button or snap. Some home dec. dept. also sell weighted cords (ball bearings in a narrow tube) and squares of plastic wrapped weights pre-covered. Home dec. depts are a haven of unique things costumers can readily use. - -- Joycelyn jfalsken@ricochet.net ------------------------------ joycelyn falsken [25,58]CSuX:german puff and slash Subject: H-COST: Re: German puff and slash From: Joycelyn Falsken Date: Sun, 01 Jun 1997 17:43:45 -0700 Fulled wool and cutting on the bias are both super suggestions. I've never done this style, but have thought on the process alot. I've heard that the fabrics used then were more tightly woven than now and so it is difficult for us to reproduce with the same fibers etc. (Is this a fallacy? -- for you who've researched fabrics.) Anyway, having worked alot with fusible interfacings, an alternative may be available if you absolutely want a fabric and not the fray it gives. Take the entire piece and fuse it, then just pink and slash it where you like. I know 'they' didn't do it this way, but sometimes one has to work with what is available. There are so many good fusibles on the market now, you should be able to get the effect you want without adding too much weight to the hand of the fabric. Be sure and test several weights with your fabric, cause the glue etc. changes the original. BTW, if anyone still is leary and/or can't get good results when trying to fuse, post me separately and I'll give them hints for proper application. Fusibles are such a time saver in today's tailoring!!! - -- Joycelyn (I fuse almost everything!) jfalsken@ricochet.net ------------------------------ joycelyn falsken [18,59]CSuX:late 13th cen. cloaks Subject: H-COST: Re: Late 13th Cen. cloaks From: Joycelyn Falsken Date: Sun, 01 Jun 1997 17:51:16 -0700 Karren Schaeffer wrote: > The weights (like used in draperies) are not that heavy. > like a string of weights much like the beaded chains used for I.D. tags > in the military. Exactly like that only heavier and wrapped in a knit tube. I've concealed them in a silk chiffon cowl hem edge on the top of an open-shoulder sleeve and they worked beautifully. The weight depends on the length you use. - -- Joycelyn jfalsken@ricochet.net ------------------------------ diana dills [21,60]CSuX:german puff and slash/fusible interfacing Subject: H-COST: Re: German puff and slash/Fusible Interfacing From: Diana Dills Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 20:45:06 -0700 (PDT) This is another solution I hadn't even thought of...possibly one of those compromise solutions that aren't striclty authentic, but give really good results. Good enough, I feel, for theater or for SCA (with the possible exception of Arts and Sciences competitions). I would certainly consider it of I had $50 or more invested in linen outer fabric and was halfway through the project! DIANA DILLS *UWPD* ddills@u.washington.edu On Sun, 1 Jun 1997, Joycelyn Falsken wrote: > Fulled wool and cutting on the bias are both super suggestions. I've > never done this style, but have thought on the process alot. I've heard > that the fabrics used then were more tightly woven... Take the entire > piece and fuse it, then just pink and slash it where you like. ------------------------------ asia reva poppers [38,61]CSuX:german puff and slash Subject: Re: H-COST: Re: German puff and slash From: Asia Reva Poppers Date: Sun, 01 Jun 1997 23:22:14 -0400 At 05:43 PM 6/1/97 -0700, you wrote: > Anyway, having worked >alot with fusible interfacings, an alternative may be available if you >absolutely want a fabric and not the fray it gives. Take the entire >piece and fuse it, then just pink and slash it where you like. I know >'they' didn't do it this way, but sometimes one has to work with what is >available. There are so many good fusibles on the market now, you >should be able to get the effect you want without adding too much weight >to the hand of the fabric. Be sure and test several weights with your >fabric, cause the glue etc. changes the original. > >BTW, if anyone still is leary and/or can't get good results when trying >to fuse, post me separately and I'll give them hints for proper >application. Fusibles are such a time saver in today's tailoring!!! > >-- > >Joycelyn (I fuse almost everything!) >jfalsken@ricochet.net I think that this is a great suggestion! I wouldn't use this technique if I were going for 'museum accuracy,' but otherwise, if one wants to slash on the straight or cross-grain of the fabric, or *really* didn't want their slashes to fray at all, no matter how period it is, the right fusible interfacing could really do the trick. If I were trying to fuse wool, I'd want some suggestions from someone who knew all the tricks, though, so thanks for offering to give advice. I've had too many things refuse to fuse (forgive the pun)--if I ever try this technique myself, I'll certainly ask for your hints. Also, i second the above suggestion that anyone trying this test out several weights and types of interfacing on a piece of their fabric ahead of time. Interfacing _is_ designed to stiffen fabric, and you'd want to be careful not to overdo it. ------------------------------ brighid@sojourn.com (tina carney)[14,62]CSuX:german puff and slash Subject: Re: H-COST: Re: German puff and slash From: brighid@sojourn.com (Tina Carney) Date: Mon, 02 Jun 1997 09:37:56 -0400 >(snip)> Dave E. wrote: >> >>Any suggestions on how to keep my slops, canions and sleeves from >unraveling? > >My first thought would be to employ the use of fray check. I think that in period they burned the slashed in. That would keep them from fraying, Tina ------------------------------ maggiros@aol.com[25,63]CSuX:german puff and slash Subject: Re: H-COST: Re: German puff and slash From: MaggiRos@aol.com Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 11:20:14 -0400 (EDT) - -Poster: MaggiRos@aol.com In a message dated 97-06-01 20:58:43 EDT, jfalsken@ricochet.net (Joycelyn Falsken) writes: > Anyway, having worked > alot with fusible interfacings, an alternative may be available if you > absolutely want a fabric and not the fray it gives. Take the entire > piece and fuse it, then just pink and slash it where you like. Won't the white of the interfacing show, though, at the edge of the cuts? And fusible interfacing does "fray" in a way, and may separate, depending on where the cuts are, of course. On long sleeve panes, which flip a bit as they fall open, the backside will certainly show. And even for stage I would find that a problem. For close encounters (like Faire) I would find that unacceptable. MaggiRos ------------------------------ End of h-costume-digest V1 #1 ***************************** automatic digest processor [15,64]CSuX:h-costume digest - 1 jun 1997 to 2 jun 1997 Subject: H-COSTUME Digest - 1 Jun 1997 to 2 Jun 1997 From: Automatic digest processor Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 00:03:20 -0400 There are 10 messages totalling 384 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. post list move problems 2. Weighted Chains: was Late 13th Cen. cloaks 3. Late 13th Cen. cloaks (2) 4. Globe Theatre (2) 5. Where is Gwen's Page 6. Duplicate Posts??? 7. When does it become historical? -Reply 8. Where is Gwen's Page(Now Where's Gwen ) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- alan kerr [19,65]CSuX:post list move problems Subject: post list move problems From: Alan Kerr Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 08:19:20 -0600 well, I wrote that I was having problems with getting the digest version since the move. I felt a *little* silly when I was sent the original message and read it carefully. however, over the weekend, I have received 5 email that said "me too, how did you fix it?" ...so, I'm reposting the "move message" for everyone *else* that misread the original. SAVE THIS FILE. ...short answer: only the people getting the list "message by message" were moved without anything needing to be done... Alan W. Kerr awkerr@aoc.nrao.edu National Radio Astronomy Observatory VLBA Correlator Operations Socorro, NM, USA Whee!(tm) ============= anyway.... here's the file: ============= >From BADDORF@DAFFY.FNAL.GOV Fri May 30 16:24:11 1997 elizabeth lear [53,66]CSuX:digetst vs non digest problems Subject: RE: digetst vs non digest problems From: Deb Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 17:23:53 -0500 Did you read this post earlier? ---------------------------- The h-costume mailing list is being moved to world.std.com, administrated by me, and run once again by majordomo. If you want to receive the regular version of the list (that is to say, the non-digest version), DO NOTHING. You have already been moved to the new list and will receive the mail as usual. If you have been receiving the digest version of the list and wish to continue doing so, you must do the following: Send mail to majordomo@world.std.com with the message subscribe h-costume-digest unsubscribe h-costume You may also use this to swap from the regular list to the digest at any time in the future. Please let me know if you run in to any problems. ...eliz ------------------------------------------------ To join the list, send mail to majordomo@world.std.com with ONE of these message subscribe h-costume subscribe h-costume-digest To leave, send either unsubscribe h-costume unsubscribe h-costume-digest ...eliz ------------------------------ shea munroe [19,67]CSuX:weighted chains: was late 13th cen. cloaks Subject: Weighted Chains: was Late 13th Cen. cloaks From: Shea Munroe Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 10:44:56 -0700 Karren wrote (in part): > ...I read somewhere that Queen Elizabeth and her mother both have all of > the hems of their dresses routinely weighted in order to avoid billowing > hemlines on a breezy day and an chance for embarassing photos. The > article described something like a string of weights much like the > beaded chains used for I.D. tags in the military. More info on hemline weights: Coco Chanel is credited for bringing this practice back to haute couture. She added chains to weight her suit jackets. The chains, somewhat like a man's chain bracelet, were various weights and sizes. They were not enclosed in the hem, but rather tacked on about 1/4" from the inside edge. They then became part of the fashion of the garment. - Shea Munroe ------------------------------ henk t jong [51,68]CSuX:late 13th cen. cloaks Subject: Re: Late 13th Cen. cloaks From: Henk 't Jong Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 20:14:42 +0200 Henk & Pauline 't Jong tScapreel Medieval Advisors Dordrecht, Netherlands ---------- > Van: Mara Riley > Aan: Multiple recipients of list H-COSTUME > Onderwerp: Re: Late 13th Cen. cloaks > Datum: zondag 1 juni 1997 0:25 > > In a message dated 97-05-28 11:59:32 EDT, holsten@NATURE.BERKELEY.EDU (Donna > Holsten) writes: > > << I've seen literally dozens of pictures/sculptures from this period showing > a > "collar" of some sort. A couple of pictures in Davenport show them, as well > as in several other books. (Oddly enough, I had a hard time finding costume > info on 1250 - 1300 in *costume* books, but my husband has a couple of > medieval *jewelery* books that have great pictures from this period.) Most > of the pictures/sculptures show the "collars" lying flat, although one or > two show them standing up a bit. Most of them look to be just an inch or > two, although I've seen a couple that look like they could be several > inches--almost like a modern coat collar! > > Donna (holsten@nature.berkeley.edu) >> > > > Donna, > You might get this effect by attaching the strap to the front of the cloak a > few inches inside the edge, instead of directly to the edge itself. This > would allow the edge of the cloak to stand up some along the neck. > > Corbie > Good advice, and there is of course the example of the statue of the Bamberg Rider, in which you see the sewing of the strap a good 4-5 cm from the edge of the cloak. Henk ------------------------------ henk t jong [76,69]CSuX:late 13th cen. cloaks Subject: Re: Late 13th Cen. cloaks From: Henk 't Jong Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 20:14:26 +0200 Henk & Pauline 't Jong tScapreel Medieval Advisors Dordrecht, Netherlands ---------- > Van: Mara Riley > Aan: Multiple recipients of list H-COSTUME > Onderwerp: Re: Late 13th Cen. cloaks > Datum: zondag 1 juni 1997 0:25 > > In a message dated 97-05-27 22:32:15 EDT, cvirtue@WELL.COM (Cynthia Virtue) > writes: > > << (snip) The strap on my cloak of this sort tends to be about 10" long (the > part > that shows, that is) and, just like the pictures, you have to hold it with > one finger/hand in order not to garrote yourself. > (snip) > Cynthia >> > > Has anyone tried putting lead weights in the ends of the cloak to weight it > down in front? I don't have a cloak of this kind, but I think this might > help. > > Corbie > Does anybody know of evidence that cloaks in the period before 1400 were weighed down? We have 4 cloaks, 3 heavy woollen ones lined with linen and 1 'loden' (a type of wool which is shaggy on one side) without a lining (it's for my Minorite's character!). All are heavy enough not to need a weight to keep them in place and falling beautifully. I can imagine fur-lined cloaks to be even heavier, but I haven't tried that yet. Early medieval silk and silk-lined (ceremonial) cloaks were probably rather light weight, but I can't remember ever having read or heard that even these were weighed down with lead or other substances. Let us not forget that cloaks were worn for warmth and against rain, wind, snow and drafts, especially in cold castles. They had to be heavy and were. Costume books have always been fond of describing that a certain gesture of especially 13th century women (i.e. the finger curling about the cloakstrap) to be a typical one for the age, as that was the way to keep from choking. As I saind I haven't tried itout wit a fur cloak, but our woollen and lined ones don't need this gesture at all. Only when you have been working in it, or had a run or a stiff climb, the cloak tends to slide back and you have to adjust the weight. It is a question of balance... I can also imagine that some cloaks, especially the ceremonial ones, were so long that they dragged the floor, but for the more practically minded cloaks were never longer than foot-free. Even these tend to gather dust and mud, and most medieval people did their best to avoid washing woollen clothing as much as they could. Therefore most long cloaks were of ankle- or lower-calf length. My advice to anybody who wants to make a cloak therefore is: use good, heavy wool (fulled or close-woven), use a heavy linen lining in a contrasting colour, and find a way of closing the cloak that fits your station (as well as the colour you could aford; so no purple on a washerwoman). As cloaks are to keep the cold out; if you live in a warm climate you would probably only use a cloak on cooler evenings and for ceremonial purpose. But even these should be of sturdy and good material. As I said: a lining should keep a cloak down and so you would not need artificial 'weighting'. It sounds extremely un-medieval to me, but should anybody know about a contemporary example: keep me posted. Bye, Henk ------------------------------ hope greenberg [6,70]CSuX:globe theatre Subject: Globe Theatre From: Hope Greenberg Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 16:43:16 -0400 This was posted to the SHAKSPER list but I thought it might be of interest to this group: - Hope ------------- bob stubbs [23,71]CSuX:new globe theatre Subject: New Globe Theatre From: Bob Stubbs Date: Monday, 2 Jun 97 12:29:35 GMT All's Well That Ends Well? Within the last week, a project first envisaged by Sam Wanamaker in 1949 was finally brought to fruition. An exact replica of the Globe Theatre has been completed at Southwark, London. The opening performance was Henry V and it is claimed that the costumes and props are the most accurate since Globe II was forcibly closed in 1642. The dyes used in costume production for the all male cast, indigo, weld, madder and onion skin extract treated with urine and saffron, were all specially made. Even the underwear worn by the actors was Elizabethan style linen to enable them to appreciate the effect this had on movement. Real oak was used for corset boning and real needle lace for collars and cuffs. The armour has been made of steel and original Elizabethian techniques used to hand produce shoes. The new theatre hopes to reintroduce *true* period accents with the use of *proto-cockney* and strong regional London accents. It is hoped to introduce Elizabethian and early Stuart audience norms of heckling and informality by serving snacks and performing some plays without intervals. ------------ ------------------------------ no name [10,72]CSuX:where is gwen s page Subject: Where is Gwen's Page From: No Name Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 17:36:25 -0400 I am looking for Gwen's Costume page and I can't find it. Will somebody please help? Thanks, Saya FaireyGirl@aol.com ------------------------------ kimberly burnette [10,73]CSuX:duplicate posts??? Subject: Duplicate Posts??? From: Kimberly Burnette Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 17:50:29 -0400 Is anyone else who receives the digest version also getting individual messages??? I am not getting all of the messages individually....just some of them... Help! Kimberly burnette@roanoke.infi.net ------------------------------ babs woods [29,74]CSuX:when does it become historical? -reply Subject: When does it become historical? -Reply From: Babs Woods Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 21:36:21 -0500 As a note: Some years ago, I took a course called Historical Archeology. By the definition of that field, and there is some definite relevance in this definition certainly to re-enacters and preservationists on this mailing list, "historical" refers most often to items for which there is some contemporary *written* account. This could be the written artifactual record itself alone, or in the case of garments or accessories could mean anything from the written record alone or perhaps a description in a document such as a will in which the item you are handling so carefully is described. The nice thing about such a definition is that it leaves out the personal referents of when the researcher was born. A number of people consider "historic" dress as being anything before the decade of their own birth, which to me is too subjective a definition. As to looking at contempory designers, a number of them harken back to "period" items and as such are within the realm of "period historical" (as it were). Some are making the garments which will become the historical items for our descendants, and some are using older construction methods and ideas contemporarily. In some cases, older methods or ideas are being preserved by contemporary work. That would seem to help blur the line between strictly "period historical" versus "modern". Peering through the mud and hoping people have followed this, -babs -- "Excuse me while I dance a little jig of despair." ------------------------------ [8,75]CSuX:where is gwen s page(now where s gwen ) Subject: Re: Where is Gwen's Page(Now Where's Gwen ) From: " " Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 22:04:04 -0400 Dear Gwen , Can't find your e-mail address. However I think I found that book you wanted soooo desperatly. Still true ,let me know B. Scott ------------------------------ william b. birner [30,76]CSuX:globe theatre Subject: Re: Globe Theatre From: "William B. Birner" Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 21:38:33 -0500 At 04:43 PM 6/2/97 -0400, Hope Greenberg wrote: >This was posted to the SHAKSPER list but I thought it might be of >interest to this group: >All's Well That Ends Well? > >Within the last week, a project first envisaged by Sam Wanamaker in 1949 >was finally brought to fruition. An exact replica of the Globe Theatre..... >The new theatre hopes to reintroduce *true* >period accents with the use of *proto-cockney* and strong regional >London accents. It is hoped to introduce Elizabethian and early Stuart >audience norms of heckling and informality by serving snacks and >performing some plays without intervals. CRINGE! Let's surround 'em with chamber pots, invite mostly illiterates, and bring back for many a bad case of the ague! Ciao, Bill ------------- wbbirner@ix.netcom.com (William B. Birner) ------------------------------ End of H-COSTUME Digest - 1 Jun 1997 to 2 Jun 1997 ************************************************** h-costume-digest-approval@world.std.com (h-costume-digest)[8,77]CSuX:h-costume-digest v1 #2 Subject: h-costume-digest V1 #2 From: h-costume-digest-approval@world.std.com (h-costume-digest) Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 14:05:20 -0400 (EDT) h-costume-digest Tuesday, June 3 1997 Volume 01 : Number 002 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- donna holsten [25,78]CSuX:german puff and slash Subject: H-COST: Re: German puff and slash From: "Donna Holsten" Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 09:37:29 -0600 (CST) - -Poster: "Donna Holsten" > Fulled wool and cutting on the bias are both super suggestions. I've > never done this style, but have thought on the process alot. I've heard > that the fabrics used then were more tightly woven than now and so it is > difficult for us to reproduce with the same fibers etc. (Is this a > fallacy? -- for you who've researched fabrics.) Wool flannel is a tightly woven, well-fulled fabric that is easy to get. (If expensive--it runs about $18/yard around here.) I got some and stomped on it in the tub for a while, (about two hours, with warm, soapy water), which made it even softer and more fulled. I cut complicated dags out of it, (the ones on the sleeves of the lady in the Arnolfini (I think that's who I mean!) wedding portrait) and it doesn't fray even the tiniest bit. If it isn't Pretty Darned Close to medieval, fulled wool, I don't know what would be! Isn't there a picture in Janet Arnold's _Patterns of Fashion 15whatever to 16whatever_ of slashes that have been finished with wax? (If it isn't in there, it's in some other book--I know I've seen it.) Donna (holsten@nature.berkeley.edu) ------------------------------ dunham patricia r [65,79]CSuX:german puff and slash Subject: Re: H-COST: Re: German puff and slash From: DUNHAM Patricia R Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 10:42:00 -0700 - -Poster: DUNHAM Patricia R I think the concept is called "conspicuous consumption" -- "I'm so rich I can afford to throw this away when it gets too tatty to be seen in" The (ancient) folklore I've heard about how this style started was that when Swiss peasant pikemen overran a German royal camp after they made mincemeat of the mounted chivalry, they decided to display their booty by wearing multiple captured garments, and slashing the outer ones and pulling the inner ones through to show... in which case, we're dealing with ostentation again, and the longevity of the garments would not be an issue... unlike for modern re-enactors 8-) Patricia R. Dunham - Eugene Public - 100 W 13th Ave - 97401 patricia.r.dunham@ci.eugene.or.us - 541-984-8321 http://204.203.17.34/library (EPL) <<<>>> http://members.aol.com/gerekr/medieval.html (home) ---------- | From: lea e harp tuley | To: h-costume@world.std.com | Subject: Re: H-COST: Re: German puff and slash | Date: Sunday, June 01, 1997 5:07PM | | At 06:53 PM 6/1/97 -0400, you wrote: | | >An excellant suggestion. Linen is probably just not going to work. If | >you're committed to it, you'll want to be sure to cut on the bias to limit | >fraying. | | this brings to mind the only time i've gotten to see an Elizabethan doublet | - many, *many* years ago in an exhibit at the Los Angeles County Museum of | Art - i was floored to find that the slashes, instead of being faced or | otherwise finished (as we would expect, from modern techniques), were simply | cut on the bias & allowed to fray. | | to my way of thinking, it gives a softer edge, with a more period, less | "high-tech" look. | | lea bob | | | "Some days you open the paper and it's kind of like finding Fidel Castro in | the refrigerator, smoking a cigar. Hard to know what to think. For | instance, when the lead story is that fourteen Dallas Cowboy Cheerleaders | have resigned because they believe the team's new owner is trying to make | them into sex objects. Says I to myself, "No doo-doo?" (That's the George | Bush influence). | | Molly Ivins, in "Molly Ivins Can't Say That, Can She?" | | ------------------------------ margo anderson [26,80]CSuX:german puff and slash Subject: Re: H-COST: Re: German puff and slash From: Margo Anderson Date: Mon, 02 Jun 1997 11:14:54 -0700 - -Poster: Margo Anderson >>>Any suggestions on how to keep my slops, canions and sleeves from >unraveling? >> >> >I think that in period they burned the slashed in. That would keep them >from fraying, No, burning would only work on a synthetic fabric. In period, they coated the back of the fabric with Gum Arabic. Fray-check will darken most fabrics, and will show white on black fabric. Do a test! I have had great luck with it on the wrong side of velvet. For linen, you're probably going to get the best results with fusible interfacing. I like Easy-Knit the best, as it doesn't change the drape of your fabric. It can also be dyed with cold-water dye to match your fabric, which is a good idea, since it may show on the edges. Margo ------------------------------ asia reva poppers [18,81]CSuX:german puff and slash Subject: Re: H-COST: Re: German puff and slash From: Asia Reva Poppers Date: Mon, 02 Jun 1997 13:57:01 -0400 - -Poster: Asia Reva Poppers >I think that in period they burned the slashed in. That would keep them >from fraying, Do not try this! Burning edges to prevent fraying works only on synthetic materials, and will do nothing to linen or any other natural fiber but destroy it. Althoough this might work with a synthetic fabric or a high-synthetic blend, it can not have been a technique used in the period because there were no synthetics invented until the mid-nineteenth century. This is, however, a great way to prevent the ends of synthetic cord and satin ribbon from fraying, if they're not going to be seen. They turn black and melt, but will never, ever fray. ------------------------------ dunham patricia r [65,82]CSuX:german puff and slash Subject: Re: H-COST: Re: German puff and slash From: DUNHAM Patricia R Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 10:42:00 -0700 - -Poster: DUNHAM Patricia R I think the concept is called "conspicuous consumption" -- "I'm so rich I can afford to throw this away when it gets too tatty to be seen in" The (ancient) folklore I've heard about how this style started was that when Swiss peasant pikemen overran a German royal camp after they made mincemeat of the mounted chivalry, they decided to display their booty by wearing multiple captured garments, and slashing the outer ones and pulling the inner ones through to show... in which case, we're dealing with ostentation again, and the longevity of the garments would not be an issue... unlike for modern re-enactors 8-) Patricia R. Dunham - Eugene Public - 100 W 13th Ave - 97401 patricia.r.dunham@ci.eugene.or.us - 541-984-8321 http://204.203.17.34/library (EPL) <<<>>> http://members.aol.com/gerekr/medieval.html (home) ---------- | From: lea e harp tuley | To: h-costume@world.std.com | Subject: Re: H-COST: Re: German puff and slash | Date: Sunday, June 01, 1997 5:07PM | | At 06:53 PM 6/1/97 -0400, you wrote: | | >An excellant suggestion. Linen is probably just not going to work. If | >you're committed to it, you'll want to be sure to cut on the bias to limit | >fraying. | | this brings to mind the only time i've gotten to see an Elizabethan doublet | - many, *many* years ago in an exhibit at the Los Angeles County Museum of | Art - i was floored to find that the slashes, instead of being faced or | otherwise finished (as we would expect, from modern techniques), were simply | cut on the bias & allowed to fray. | | to my way of thinking, it gives a softer edge, with a more period, less | "high-tech" look. | | lea bob | | | "Some days you open the paper and it's kind of like finding Fidel Castro in | the refrigerator, smoking a cigar. Hard to know what to think. For | instance, when the lead story is that fourteen Dallas Cowboy Cheerleaders | have resigned because they believe the team's new owner is trying to make | them into sex objects. Says I to myself, "No doo-doo?" (That's the George | Bush influence). | | Molly Ivins, in "Molly Ivins Can't Say That, Can She?" | | ------------------------------ laurie kittle [26,83]CSuX:late 18thc--levite gown Subject: H-COST: Late 18thC--Levite Gown From: Laurie Kittle Date: Mon, 02 Jun 1997 17:20:05 -0400 - -Poster: Laurie Kittle Is anyone on the list familiar with Levite gowns (aka Robe ala Turk and Robe ala Circissian)?? Based on the small amount of commentary I could find, they were essentially wraparound gowns tied with a sash. Most of the information I could find focused on the fact that the dresses were theatrically inspired--from a play by Racine that had Levites in it. Would this be the first instance of fashion coming from the stage?? However, my real question concerns how this gown fit. When looking at a portrait of someone wearing a levite gown (id from A. Riberio), I do not understand how the dress looked so fitted to the individual's stays when it was wrapped and sashed. I would think that some sort of fastener besides the sash was involved. Any ideas?? Laurie Kittle laurie.kittle@predictive.com ------------------------------ cynthia becht [25,84]CSuX:german puff and slash Subject: Re: H-COST: Re: German puff and slash From: Cynthia Becht Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 14:24:29 -0700 - -Poster: Cynthia Becht At 05:07 PM 6/1/97 -0700, Lea wrote: >this brings to mind the only time i've gotten to see an Elizabethan doublet >- many, *many* years ago in an exhibit at the Los Angeles County Museum of >Art - i was floored to find that the slashes, instead of being faced or >otherwise finished (as we would expect, from modern techniques), were simply >cut on the bias & allowed to fray. And this was the technique I had been led to believe was usually the case. But yesterday, flipping through a new book of my mom's on Italian Renaissance art, I was surprised to find an early-mid 16th cent. portrait of a young woman wearing a gown with slashed sleeves that were lined with a contrasting fabric. Does this ring a bell? This being a book on Italian art, I don't know if the practice occurred in Germany at all, but the painting was dated around 1530. Of course I forgot to write down the citation; if anyone is interested, I can make a note to check over the coming weekend when I visit my mother again. Cynthia cbecht@popmail.lmu.edu ------------------------------ j&b [57,85]CSuX:-levite gown Subject: H-COST: Re: -Levite Gown From: J&B Date: Mon, 02 Jun 1997 19:50:57 +0000 - -Poster: J&B Laurie Kittle wrote: > = > -Poster: Laurie Kittle > = > Is anyone on the list familiar with Levite gowns > (aka Robe ala Turk and Robe ala Circissian)??... I > would think that some sort of fastener besides the > sash was involved. > = > Any ideas?? Dear Laurie - the distinguishing feature of the robe =E0 la turque is a decoratively inco= mplete = closure of a "loose" (tho often extremely fitted) overdress - based on the = layered = clothes worn by middle-eastern women. The turkish fashion came back to Eur= ope = w/ Lady Mary Wortley Montagu in the 1720's after a stay in Constaninople. = MY = belief is that it (the Turkish Fashion) influenced, rather than was influen= ced by, = stage costume. Baroque Europeans were vague about what they wore in China,= = but had good info on what the Ottomans were wearing. As I understand it, the term indicates any overdress of vaguely orentalist = pretensions which reveals a lot of its underbod/dress when closed. Circass= ienne = and L=E9vite are subtypes whose specific characteristics seem to vary from = picture to picture. I think all those names are illustrated in the Dover edition of the "Journa= l des = Modes" edited by Stella Blum (as French Fasion Plates of the 18th Century, = I = think). I was dumb enough to lend my copy out, so cain't give you page #s.= ------------------------------ don & carolyn richardson [27,86]CSuX:globe theatre Subject: H-COST: Re: Globe Theatre From: Don & Carolyn Richardson Date: Mon, 02 Jun 1997 17:12:35 -0700 - -Poster: Don & Carolyn Richardson Hope Greenberg wrote: > Henry V and it is claimed that the costumes and props are the most > accurate since Globe II was forcibly closed in 1642. The dyes used in > costume production for the all male cast, indigo, weld, madder and onion > skin extract treated with urine and saffron, were all specially made. > Even the underwear worn by the actors was Elizabethan style linen to > enable them to appreciate the effect this had on movement. Real oak was > used for corset boning and real needle lace for collars and cuffs. The > armour has been made of steel and original Elizabethian techniques used > to hand produce shoes. Interesting -- an article I saw last year in the LA Times on the New Globe said that they planned to follow period practice and have the actors provide their own costumes or wear street clothes (in other words, they would be using contemporary clothing for today, not Shakespeare's period). I wonder when they changed their mind and for what reason? I'm willing to bet odds that someone decided that people just wouldn't buy into a Shakespearean play without period Elizabethan clothes to go with it. Carolyn ------------------------------ savaskan@znet.com (julie adams)[93,87]CSuX:german puff and slash Subject: Re: H-COST: Re: German puff and slash From: savaskan@znet.com (Julie Adams) Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 16:28:31 -0700 - -Poster: savaskan@znet.com (Julie Adams) Jocelyn wrote: > Anyway, having worked >alot with fusible interfacings, an alternative may be available if you >absolutely want a fabric and not the fray it gives. Take the entire >piece and fuse it, then just pink and slash it where you like. I know >'they' didn't do it this way, but sometimes one has to work with what is >available. There are so many good fusibles on the market now, Good suggestions for costume that is meant to be theatrical or is a "Historical Impression". Warning though, the longer slashes tend to move enough that you would see the fusing side if they flipped open a bit. German mens puff and slashed costumes tend to have slashes long enough to turn a bit and show that inside. A linen is bound to do this with slashes over about 1.5". On larger slashes where the fabric is one that ravels, I prefer to make the pieces in strips and line them, or at least turn the edges. >you >should be able to get the effect you want without adding too much weight >to the hand of the fabric. Be sure and test several weights with your >fabric, cause the glue etc. changes the original. A German puff and slash costume looks best when the outer layers are in heavier fabrics, felted wool, heavy cotton velvet, or leather or lighter fabrics that have been lined to give more body. With a thin outer layer, the puffing pulled through from underneath will squeeze and misform the panes (if you are doing that style). The paintings and fabrics that I have seen up close and personal give the impression that the fabric had weight and a lot of body. There is a nice cotton velvet that is nice for guarding decorated with small slashes, which comes with a type of rubberized backing (but I would not recommend it for the body of a garment due to lack of breathability.) Anyway, if your outer fabric is lightweight or has no body (like most linens), then I suggest a fairly heavy lining, denim or canvas weight to keep some body in the garment. (By this I mean that inner layer is used as lining to each slash, not that it puffs through, another layer would be added for puffing.) I think that fusing a linen might help keep it from wrinkling and help add the necessary weight for a puff and slash costume (if the linen were then lined with something stout). The best way to check a fabric for "frayability" on the bolt is to rough up the cut edge fairly hard. You can also usually ask for a swatch at most stores which you can take home to do washability, dying or slashing tests. Tina wrote: >I think that in period they burned the slashed in. That would keep them >from fraying, I would love to see some documentation for burning pinks and slashes as a period practice, because I don't think that burning the edges would help seal an edge, unless you were making it out of something like nylon. Linen, silk, and cotton does not melt, it burns quite easily, and wool smolders into a crispy ash. I just don't think natural fabrics available at the time would 'fuse' by burning. In Elizabeth's Wardrobe Unlock'd there is the following: P. 187 "Before any cutting was done, the material might be lightly brushed on the back with size or gum arabic to prevent fraying, as in this example where David Smith is entered for "for sysinge Cuttinge and purlinge of a Flaunders gowne of Blacke velvet cutt all over with rewes downe righte the gowne for workemanshipp therof xxxs" I only did a cursory perusal of Wardrobe, Patterns of Fashion, and Hispanic Costume, but have not found any references on techniques used by tailors in those books so far. Maggie wrote: >On long sleeve panes, which flip a bit as they >fall open, the backside will certainly show. And even for stage I would find >that a problem. For close encounters (like Faire) I would find that >unacceptable. Agree. Dave, Remember to add length to your pattern at each row of slashing to allow for the slashed areas to "puff" a bit, and don't slash to close to the seams. I find that making heavy paper mockups for the patterns I am planning helps me decide how much length to add for each puff. The pluderhose patterns in Janet Arnolds "Patterns of Fashion" really helpful in patterning the codpiece and if you treat the panes like they were one piece, you could make tight or transitional lederhosen from the pluderhose patterns. Sewing a line between slashes helps strengthen the garment and reduce stretch. Good Luck, feel free to ask more specifics as you go, Julie Adams ------------------------------ joycelyn falsken [22,88]CSuX:weighted chains/chanel Subject: H-COST: Re: Weighted Chains/Chanel From: Joycelyn Falsken Date: Mon, 02 Jun 1997 19:09:08 -0700 - -Poster: Joycelyn Falsken Shea Munroe wrote: > > Coco Chanel is credited for bringing this practice back to haute couture. > She added chains to weight her suit jackets. The chains, somewhat like a > man's chain bracelet, were various weights and sizes. They were not > enclosed in the hem, but rather tacked on about 1/4" from the inside edge. > They then became part of the fashion of the garment. > And now the chain is almost a trademark with that house's designs. Draped about the waist, hips and sometimes neck. Interesting the development of fashions and styles.... - -- Joycelyn jfalsken@ricochet.net ------------------------------ joycelyn falsken [25,89]CSuX:german puff and slash Subject: Re: H-COST: Re: German puff and slash From: Joycelyn Falsken Date: Mon, 02 Jun 1997 19:32:54 -0700 - -Poster: Joycelyn Falsken MaggiRos@aol.com wrote: > > Won't the white of the interfacing show, though, at the edge of the cuts? > And fusible interfacing does "fray" in a way, and may separate, depending on > where the cuts are, of course. On long sleeve panes, which flip a bit as they > fall open, the backside will certainly show. And even for stage I would find > that a problem. For close encounters (like Faire) I would find that > unacceptable. You're perfectly right. I would use black EZKnit. Margo Anderson's suggestions to use cold water dye sounds good. I haven't ever needed to dye it as I always have a lining to hide it and haven't used it in this way. Just be sure to only treat it with cold water as any hot or warm water will mess up the glue on the back. As far as fraying on the edges, this should be minimal if you've sufficiently adhered it. i.e. fused correctly. - -- Joycelyn jfalsken@ricochet.net ------------------------------ joycelyn falsken [23,90]CSuX:german puff and slash/interfacing Subject: H-COST: Re: German puff and slash/interfacing From: Joycelyn Falsken Date: Mon, 02 Jun 1997 19:13:08 -0700 - -Poster: Joycelyn Falsken Margo Anderson wrote: , > > No, burning would only work on a synthetic fabric. In period, they coated > the back of the fabric with Gum Arabic. Wow, medieval fused interfacing?!! I like Easy-Knit the best, as it doesn't change the drape of > your fabric. It can also be dyed with cold-water dye to match your fabric, > which is a good idea, since it may show on the edges. > Ditto on the Easy-Knit! It's great. If you get supplies from an industry supplier, they call it "fusible tricot". - -- Joycelyn jfalsken@ricochet.net ------------------------------ william b. birner [43,91]CSuX:globe theatre Subject: Re: H-COST: Re: Globe Theatre From: "William B. Birner" Date: Mon, 02 Jun 1997 21:58:25 -0500 - -Poster: "William B. Birner" At 05:12 PM 6/2/97 -0700, Carolyn Richardson wrote: > I wonder when they changed their mind and for >what reason? I'm willing to bet odds that someone decided that people >just wouldn't buy into a Shakespearean play without period Elizabethan >clothes to go with it. Not at all true! There are other close approximations of the Globe about and also many temporary "Elizabethan Stages" have been built for productions and festivals around the world, usually costumed in the period of the story/setting rather than Elizabethan. And also there have been hundreds of "modern dress" performances of the Bard on all kinds of stages. When well acted and directed the populace always "buys into them". Certainly the "modern dress" and oddball stagings such as Julius Caeser in Nazi Uniform (an actual production) have been more intellectual and less involving on the audience, at least in some opinions. But seeing Brutus dressed as Francis Drake is no less disconcerting to today's audience. And how magical would be such a production of Midsummer Night's Dream by today's standards of fantasy? More like a concert reading of poetry than a production. The idea of dressing the actor in proper undergarments, etc is a technique for actor preparation if one wants the "flavor" of the restrictions, etc., and an actor who understands what he wants to accomplish - when he dresses according to the period. But trying to recreate the actual production is both fruitless and gimmicky and perhaps of academic interest but hardly the stuff of great theatre. And besides - that "original" production was created for Shakespeare's then contemporary particular audience. A most active part of any performance.- And that is beyond the producers' control and will NOT be replicated. It is thus like trying to play baseball on a football field. A badly mixed metaphor. Ciao, Bill - ------------- wbbirner@ix.netcom.com (William B. Birner) ------------------------------ morghana@aol.com[12,92]CSuX:german puff and slash Subject: Re: H-COST: Re: German puff and slash From: Morghana@aol.com Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 23:36:55 -0400 (EDT) - -Poster: Morghana@aol.com In a message dated 97-06-02 19:49:51 EDT, MaggiRos@AOL.COM writes: << Won't the white of the interfacing show, though, at the edge of the cuts? >> Not all fusibles are white. I have in my "stash" fusibles of white, beige, black, grey and red...... ------------------------------ don & carolyn richardson [18,93]CSuX:lost addresses Subject: H-COST: Lost addresses From: Don & Carolyn Richardson Date: Mon, 02 Jun 1997 21:14:24 -0700 - -Poster: Don & Carolyn Richardson Sorry for having to post this to the list - our hard drive crashed a couple weeks ago and due to a vacation I haven't had time to post this. Barbara/Helisenne - I've lost your address so I can't continue discussing our Borgia party. Please email me. Also, to the person who wanted copies of the 3 & 4 Musketeers (Dale?) I've lost your mail as well, so if you still want copies email me privately again. BTW, I noticed AMC has been playing the 4 Musketeers alot lately so if you still want that on tape look for it. It's commercial free and uncut as well as the copies I have. Carolyn ------------------------------ maggiros@aol.com[17,94]CSuX:german puff and slash Subject: Re: H-COST: Re: German puff and slash From: MaggiRos@aol.com Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 01:03:38 -0400 (EDT) - -Poster: MaggiRos@aol.com In a message dated 97-06-03 00:18:21 EDT, Morghana@AOL.COM writes: > > Not all fusibles are white. I have in my "stash" fusibles of white, beige, > black, grey and red.... Lucky! I find it hard to find anything but white, and sometimes black. Still, my problem remains the same...unles it actually matches, it will show in close work. I find it sooo much easier just to line than to go thru the fusible process. MaggiRos ------------------------------ glenn and shanda grieb [13,95]CSuX:german puff and slash Subject: H-COST: German puff and slash From: Glenn and Shanda Grieb Date: Mon, 02 Jun 1997 23:02:35 -0500 - -Poster: Glenn and Shanda Grieb Wow! I just wanted to say thanks to everyone who responded to the puff and slash questions. Even though I was not the original poster of the question, I was very interested in the responses, as I hope to tackle a garment like this eventually. I love this list! Thanks everyone. :) Shanda ------------------------------ glenn and shanda grieb [14,96]CSuX:german puff and slash Subject: Re: H-COST: Re: German puff and slash From: Glenn and Shanda Grieb Date: Tue, 03 Jun 1997 00:48:13 -0500 - -Poster: Glenn and Shanda Grieb MaggiRos@aol.com wrote: (snip) I find it sooo much easier just to line than to go thru the > fusible process. Can you use something like stitch-witchery (sp?) and "bond" a lining to the underside of the outer fabric before slashing it? Shanda ------------------------------ dale loberger [45,97]CSuX:historic costume in film...sorta Subject: H-COST: Re: historic costume in film...sorta From: Dale Loberger Date: Tue, 03 Jun 1997 07:28:07 -0400 - -Poster: Dale Loberger Erica wrote: >I don't remember who it was that mentioned the Highlander movies as >possible resources for fairly accurate costume ideas (Susannah, was it >you?), but I was wondering if anyone has seen the Highlander TV series. >I've drooled over several costumes from it, though I don't really know >enough to tell their accuracy. Please, let me know how you all, being the >amazingly well studied group you are, would rate this show. Regardless, >I'll still be watching it if for no other reason that to see Adrian Paul >for an hour. > >Erica Stevens Dear Erica, I didnt really say you should get ideas from the movie "The Highlander." I was actually asking the list what everybody else thought. I havent seen anybody at all reply to it but then I dont always get all the replies, I dont think, because I know Ive missed some posts that get copied into others posts later are you still with me? Its late and Ive been at this a little too long tonite anyway, Im with you on staying up to watch Adrian. Hes better than Sean Connery was at his age, only because hes such a 90s type of gentle-macho tough guy with dark eyes you can drink in and drown in... Oh, so very yum a recent interview with him gives the sad news that hes cut his hair, however, and that this is the Last Season for the show. () My friend Jason of the 84th Highlanders says the original "Highlander" movie was terrible as to costumes, but at the time he thought it was the most powerful movie he had ever seen & he loved it, bearing in mind he was in his late teens then. He tells me the TV series, when it is shot in France, is actually much better for costuming. Apparently, they have a different set of people doing the costumes over there. Take that, Hollywood. Regards, Susannah Eanes, Mantua Maker & Fine Tailoring (Susan B. Loberger for Susannahs Heirloom, Ltd.) "The past isnt dead, it isnt even past." --William Faulkner ------------------------------ roxann barber [25,98]CSuX:historic costume in film...sorta Subject: Re: H-COST: Re: historic costume in film...sorta From: Roxann Barber Date: Tue, 03 Jun 1997 10:20:06 -0700 - -Poster: Roxann Barber > I didnt really say you should get ideas from the movie "The > Highlander." I was actually asking the list what everybody else > thought. I havent seen anybody at all reply to it but then I dont > always get all the replies, I dont think, because I know Ive missed > some posts that get copied into others posts later > Susannah Eanes, Mantua Maker & Fine Tailoring > (Susan B. Loberger for Susannahs Heirloom, Ltd.) I quess I missed the message on the Highlander. I was wondering about costumes too. Most of them look good in the TV series, but I'm no expert. I know some of the "historical facts" are not always straight and the recent episode on Byron and Mary Shelley was (I am told) straight out of a movie. How about the four horsemen of the apocolypse show? We wondered about the face painting, looked more like the group Kiss. Roxy Barber ------------------------------ joycelyn falsken [25,99]CSuX:german puff and slash Subject: Re: H-COST: Re: German puff and slash From: Joycelyn Falsken Date: Tue, 03 Jun 1997 09:46:58 -0700 - -Poster: Joycelyn Falsken Morghana@aol.com wrote: > > -Poster: Morghana@aol.com > > In a message dated 97-06-02 19:49:51 EDT, MaggiRos@AOL.COM writes: > > << Won't the white of the interfacing show, though, at the edge of the cuts? > >> > > Not all fusibles are white. I have in my "stash" fusibles of white, beige, > black, grey and red...... Now please don't cringe, but colored felt work great... maybe that's why they're called "Magic Markers".... ;-) oooh, sorry, I couldn't help myself.... - -- Joycelyn jfalsken@ricochet.net ------------------------------ dunham patricia r [56,100]CSuX:linen from jo-ann s Subject: H-COST: RE: Linen from Jo-Ann's From: DUNHAM Patricia R Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 10:41:00 -0700 - -Poster: DUNHAM Patricia R You got mislabeled. Brown sticky goo is not linen. The ash or residue made a hard bead when it cools, yes? And I bet it smelled like something bad when it was burning. And burned fairly fast? At least it apparently wasn't dropping "napalm" globules or you'd have mentioned it. Linen burns something like cotton, a papery sort of smell and regular soft white-ish ash, as I remember. (One thing SCAers -do- figure out, at least here in the western parts, where we camp outside, with fires and candles and so forth, is to test all costume fabric for flamability - -before- we make it up (or even buy it), or before we put it in the loaner costume stash.) Basic information about how all the fabric types "burn test" is available in any college-level textiles textbook. How fast it burns, color and nature of flame, smell, ash/residue, etc. It's really worthwhile to find the information, round up a set of swatches that you KNOW what are and do a complete test to experience it yourself. The difference between how natural fibers (and rayon) react, and how the petrochemicals do is unmistakable, and terrifying, once you've seen it, and really reinforces why you want to use natural fibers for your re-enacting costumes, despite the up-front costs. Patricia R. Dunham - Eugene Public - 100 W 13th Ave - 97401 patricia.r.dunham@ci.eugene.or.us - 541-984-8321 http://204.203.17.34/library (EPL) <<<>>> http://members.aol.com/gerekr/medieval.html (home) ---------- | From: Susannah Gort | To: Multiple recipients of list H-COSTUME | Subject: Linen from Jo-Ann's | Date: Tuesday, June 03, 1997 9:10AM | | I remember a couple of weeks ago a thread about someone who'd bought | something labelled '100% linen' from Jo-Ann's and found that it wasn't. | This inspired me to try washing up the 100% handkerchief linen I'd got | from the same source, and sure enough, it didn't get appreciably softer. | So I burnt a bit. It burned with a bright flame and left brownish, bitter, | sticky goo behind on the tile I burned it on. Virtually nothing of the fabric | was left. Does that sound right for linen, and it's just stubborn about | softening (hardly waht I'd want in a handkerchief), or did I get the | mis-labelled lot too? | | Susannah Gort | ------------------------------ msbeasley@aol.com[35,101]CSuX:historic costume in film...sorta Subject: Re: H-COST: Re: historic costume in film...sorta From: MSBEASLEY@aol.com Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 13:46:43 -0400 (EDT) - -Poster: MSBEASLEY@aol.com In a message dated 6/3/1997 04:52:51 AM, you wrote: < Dear Susannah I may and believe I really say May be mistaken, but I believe both Highlander films were done by English Production Co. and English Designers. At least the Special Effects crew was from England.( Hi Neil) 99% of the time if a Co. is English they hire an English crew. Regardless, I remember I like the costuming very much years ago. Of course that era is not my speciality. Perhaps it's time for all of us to re rent it and form an accurate opinion now before opening our collective mouths. Just a thought B.Scott:) ------------------------------ margo anderson [37,102]CSuX:(none) Subject: [none] From: Margo Anderson Date: Mon, 03 Jun 1996 11:05:52 -0700 - -Poster: Margo Anderson At 09:26 AM 6/3/97 PDT, you wrote: >dear All > >Can anyone help me in my search for pen pals?? So far I have had a few >replies but no one is returning my e-mails? > James, I think you're forcing the issue. Why not spend some time discussing your interests on the newsgroup, rather than asking for penpals? Think of h-costume as a party. Do you walk in and holler "Does anyone here want to be my friend?" Of course not, instead you join the general conversation. After a while you notice that someone else seems to have interesting ideas and a similar viewpoint, and that maybe the two of you would have things to say to each other that the rest of the group might not be so interested in. That's when you can ask if he or she would like to go sit on the couch and discuss it more. (or take it to email) I've developed several warm friendships through this list, including one with someone who I would say is one of my dearest friends, even though I've never actually met her. It just takes some time. How about letting us get to know you? Ask some questions and share some knowledge, let us hear your ideas. That's what we're here for! Margo Anderson "One Tough Costumer" ------------------------------ End of h-costume-digest V1 #2 ***************************** automatic digest processor [16,103]CSuX:h-costume digest - 2 jun 1997 to 3 jun 1997 Subject: H-COSTUME Digest - 2 Jun 1997 to 3 Jun 1997 From: Automatic digest processor Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 00:01:25 -0400 There are 11 messages totalling 433 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Globe Theatre 2. H-COST: Re: Globe Theatre (2) 3. Linen from Jo-Ann's 4. questions? 5. 18th c. Livery Coats 6. French Seams 7. Period Crape (Crepe) 8. Please help--longish (2) 9. Cutting fabric ---------------------------------------------------------------------- maggie pierce [18,104]CSuX:globe theatre Subject: Re: Globe Theatre From: Maggie Pierce Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 01:53:33 -0400 In a message dated 97-06-03 01:04:32 EDT, wbbirner@IX.NETCOM.COM (William B. Birner) writes: > > CRINGE! > > Let's surround 'em with chamber pots, invite mostly illiterates, and bring > back for many a bad case of the ague! > > > Ciao, > Bill And no one's allowed to brush their teeth before they arrive Maggie ------------------------------ j&b [33,105]CSuX:globe theatre Subject: Re: H-COST: Re: Globe Theatre From: J&B Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 07:00:06 +0000 William B. Birner wrote: But trying to recreate the actual production is > both fruitless and gimmicky and perhaps of academic interest but hardly the > stuff of great theatre. And besides - that "original" production was > created for Shakespeare's then contemporary particular audience. - And that is beyond the producers' control > and will NOT be replicated. It is thus like trying to play baseball on a > football field. A badly mixed metaphor. > > Ciao, > Bill Dear Bill - Bill, I have been in the business of studying period acting and staging for many years, working on doing exactly that - trying to create productions that do reflect what I know about aesthetics and techniques of the period. Why do you think it is valid to try to recreate a costume of a particular period, but not valid to recreate the movements and gestures that the people who wore those clothes made in them? Am I misreading what you are saying? Is spending hours studying and recreating historic costume then "fruitless and gimmicky" too? It is directors who make their characters who are dressed in wonderfully replicated period clothing slouch around as if they were on an episode of Melrose Place that I think of as trying to play baseball on a football field. Bill, I know you didn't do it intentionally, but you've managed to dismiss a good part of my life's work, and I have a right to feel insulted. Peace- Bob Skiba ------------------------------ william b. birner [113,106]CSuX:globe theatre Subject: Re: H-COST: Re: Globe Theatre From: "William B. Birner" Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 09:29:50 -0500 At 07:00 AM 6/3/97 +0000, J&B wrote: Bob, I haven't dismissed anything - the difference is that I always try to write exactly what I mean - not what someone else may think or feel or read. As to your feelings, they don't come from me but from you. And no one ever needs anyone else's permission for their feelings. They arise and cannot be simply dismissed or disowned - at least not healtily. You have a right always to feel what you feel. But don't blame me for it. If you have not considered my point of view as expressed, thoroughly in your life's work, than you haven't done all your homework. That's why some people (at least allegedly) study the philosophy of their field at a high degree of consideration. Bob, I don't mean this personally to you, who I regard quite highly, but as an example of the kind of thinking that should be considered by any master or would be master - no matter how the consideration eventually is weighed in the mind of the ultimate arbiter - which is always one's self. We should not allow ourselves to think in a myopic vacuum of only our own point of view. I mean, and said, that when the purpose is dramatic production, the highest values are what the intended audience takes, gets, etc. from the production - whose purpose is not to teach. Wanting period costumes to be correct when used is of course worthwhile. Wanting to do a dramatic production at the turn of the 21st century for its own audience "exactly" like the original Globe may make for a good theoretical museum piece but not necessarily good drama. Keep in mind that Willie took great - yea, verily, even fantastic license with his sources, history, etc in order to create his dramatics - We do better to follow his intent as we can discover it than the literality of his dress. Had he today's theatre there is little doubt that there would be women in women's roles, period costumes to fit the story not the contemporary period, electric lighting, etc. Willie did NOT write museum pieces. When the purpose IS to teach what acting was like in Burbage's day I agree with your life's work. Though I have seen little hard research to justify the belief that it can be done with any sense of accuracy, I have no brief against your trying. But as the best way to satisfy a playwright's intent for today's audience - I do. I think it "wrong" as per se ineffective. We do not speak Elizabethan English. Hell, we have a hard enough time getting audiences to understand the language pronounced as 1997. As to directors who either cause or at least permit your described slouching - I am just as demanding on directors to "get with it" and uphold standards of quality as anyone else. I have never been one to hold my tongue from speaking out against sloppy work in any are of which I have adequate knowledge. In other words I agree with you. Just as I hate youngsters' crappy dance recitals with no sense of the art and lovely teen-aged prom girls trying to walk around in high heels and wobbling like wounded geese. Today's young actors have an almost impossible time pulling off comedies of manners simply because they have none. Etc., etc., and so forth! Is costuming of itself gimmicky? - Of course not. Why would you assume I could mean that. Let's do drama _set_ in the Elizabethan period in period costume. If there is a valid artistic reason to do one in a different period which enhances the dramatic effect, let's change the period sometimes. But to recreate for dramatic purpose the reality which doesn'[t fit. I happen to disagree. I think that the recreated Globe production does more harm to today's audience enjoying Shakespeare as it was meant to be than it does good. As a museum piece and a didactic/pedantic production - perfectly acceptable though again dubious in my understanding of the audience who will view it. But useing the approach as described for the Globe project is, to me, gimmicky for the reason stated. Is it a valid artistic entitlement - of course. As is my reasoned disagreement that it is a good one. To me it is clearly based on the wrong values. An example of my thinking as to audiences - I have long believed the English speaking world's idea of how to stage opera as idiotic. Instead of the European idea of singing in the language of the audience we insist on the "original." So that most American audience's have no idea in the slightest of what is being specifically sung. Even with Milton Cross's books, translated libretti and projected subtitles. It is pure and simple pseudo-snob appeal. For all thatt Italian and French "sound" lovlier than English, the German operas do not sound bad, nor are they much better when sung in the romance languages in the appropriate country. One needs always to take one's audience as they are found and move them from there, not start some place else from the beginning. >Dear Bill - > >Bill, I have been in the business of studying period acting and staging for many >years, working on doing exactly that - trying to create productions that do >reflect what I know about aesthetics and techniques of the period. Why do you >think it is valid to try to recreate a costume of a particular period, but not valid >to recreate the movements and gestures that the people who wore those clothes >made in them? Am I misreading what you are saying? Is spending hours studying >and recreating historic costume then "fruitless and gimmicky" too? >It is directors who make their characters who are dressed in wonderfully >replicated period clothing slouch around as if they were on an episode of Melrose >Place that I think of as trying to play baseball on a football field. > >Bill, I know you didn't do it intentionally, but you've managed to dismiss a good >part of my life's work, and I have a right to feel insulted. > >Peace- >Bob Skiba > > Ciao, Bill ------------- wbbirner@ix.netcom.com (William B. Birner) ------------------------------ susannah gort [14,107]CSuX:linen from jo-ann s Subject: Linen from Jo-Ann's From: Susannah Gort Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 09:10:58 -0700 I remember a couple of weeks ago a thread about someone who'd bought something labelled '100% linen' from Jo-Ann's and found that it wasn't. This inspired me to try washing up the 100% handkerchief linen I'd got from the same source, and sure enough, it didn't get appreciably softer. So I burnt a bit. It burned with a bright flame and left brownish, bitter, sticky goo behind on the tile I burned it on. Virtually nothing of the fabric was left. Does that sound right for linen, and it's just stubborn about softening (hardly waht I'd want in a handkerchief), or did I get the mis-labelled lot too? Susannah Gort ------------------------------ james stubbings [23,108]CSuX:questions? Subject: Re: questions? From: James Stubbings Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 09:26:35 PDT dear All Can anyone help me in my search for pen pals?? So far I have had a few replies but no one is returning my e-mails? If theres anyone out there whos interested in the Elizabethan/victorian era, and possibly from the UK or America then can you give me an e-mail (bell), Ihope I can hear from someone soon Kind regards JStubbings stubbings@hotmail.com --------------------------------------------------------- Get Your *Web-Based* Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com --------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ erling g. b. hohler [28,109]CSuX:18th c. livery coats Subject: Re: 18th c. Livery Coats From: "Erling G. B. Hohler" Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 21:29:35 +0200 At 15:47 01.06.97 -0400, No Name wrote: >Dear List- > >Our company is making eleven c.1740 livery coats and the designer is >interested in keeping strictly to the period. However..... He wants the coats >to have collars which we cannot find any research for. >Does anyone know of a book that would show this collar he is speaking of ? >Thanks- >Becky Kaufman > Hi, I don't know if this helps, but... R. Turner Wilcox, The Dictionary of Costume, under Eighteen Century vest and waistcoat has a drawing of a "vest buttoned to the left - coat to right - English 1730's where the vest (I think it's the vest, I'm not really into the terminology, but your customer may not be either if language is a problem) has some sort of collar. Could this be the kind of thing your customer has in mind? I don't know where the original comes from, and it'd be a few years earlier than 1740. I haven't seen any paintings with this sort of collar from the right period either. Bye, Inger ------------------------------ snorton.us.oracle.com [45,110]CSuX:french seams Subject: French Seams From: "SNORTON.US.ORACLE.COM" Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 14:33:20 -0700 Sally Norton wrote: >> I recently attended a fashion show and was struck by a >> very interesting use of French seams. Roxy Barber asked: >Sally, sounds delightful. What was the context of this garment, or the >show, historical? The show was titled "Fashion Focus Chicago" and was presented at the Chicago Athenaeum (a museum dedicated to design and architecture). The show displayed the work of 55 new designers in Chicago. The majority of the items were for women; there were a few hats. The most interesting aspect of the show was the influence of historic periods on these contemporary designs. One of the gowns was an Edwardin-inspired dress of ecru silk with ecru lace on bodice. This gown might easily have come straight out of a museum collection .... at the same time, there were subtle differences (mainly in the cut around the shoulders and armholes) that made it seem easily wearable today. There was also a Victorian corset with a lace overlay paired with a very full skirt also with a lace overlay. This sort of thing has been done in evening wear for several years now, but this was not just "a strapeless top with some boning". This was a correct, carefully made Victorian corset worn as the bodice of a contemporary formal evening gown. There was quite an interest in loose, "everyday" sort of clothing inspired by various ethnic pieces. I also fell in love with an elegant evening gown that was clearly inspired by the work of Madeline Vionnet. The gown was a silvery-white silk satin with a straight, smooth skirt. The bodice was off one shoulder. The entire bodice was sewn to create a "ribbed" effect on the diagonal. It was a timeless work of elegant design. Altogether, an interesting and unusual show. Sally Norton snorton@us.oracle.com ------------------------------ glenna jo & bill christen [22,111]CSuX:period crape (crepe) Subject: Period Crape (Crepe) From: Glenna Jo & Bill Christen Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 17:09:40 -0700 As I promised, here's the latest on the 'good' crape I was told about. I just got the swatches of 'real' silk crape in the mail today. They only have white at the moment, but they are working on getting black as well. I must say am impressed. It does have that 'crunchy' feel and drape of the original crape. I don't know how opaque the black will be, but it might be a bit heavy for veiling, but great for trimming mourning bonnets and dresses. The original veil I have is pretty heavy though... The women who are getting it are negotiating with the wholesaler, but it looks like the price will be around $18/yd. (I don't know the width) If you would like more details or see about ordering some, contact Diane Stull at: stull@fred.net Now I really have to redo my mourning dress! :-) Glenna Jo Christen gwjchris@rust.net Visit The Curiosity Shop! http://www.rust.net/~gwjchris/ ------------------------------ mary-gayle jany [41,112]CSuX:please help--longish Subject: Please help--longish From: Mary-Gayle Jany Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 19:39:21 -0500 If anyone can help me with the following questions, I'd much appreciate your input. (1) Is Janet Arnold, the author of Patterns of Fashion: The cut and construction of clothes for men and women c1560-1620, the married surname for Janet Winter, the author of Elizabethan Costuming For the Years 1550-1580? (I have both books.) (2) If the above is not true, is Janet Winter's book a dependable source for an amateur in costuming who can sew fairly well and can follow a flat pattern diagram? (3) Winter mentions crochet on two pages of her book, but she does not pursue it further. On page 173 of Elizabethan Costuming, she claims that "[t]extile techniques must be divided into functional (spinning, weaving, knitting, and the beginnings of crochet), and purely decorative (embroidery and lacemaking)." On page 174 she says, "[c]rochet was not used for delicate things such as lace, and tatted lace was not known." I don't doubt the information, but what, then, was crochet used for in the Elizabethan period? Are there any period paintings or illustrations I could access by Internet or books of which you know to show examples? (I have many lacemaking sites and clothing sites bookmarked.) (4) Does anyone know whether Joan Evans' book entitled Magical Jewels of the Middle Ages and the Renaissance, Particularly in England has ever been published completely translated? (It was published by Dover in 1976, ISBN 0-486-23367-7.) I can hold my own with the French and Middle English, but I can't begin to work through the Greek and Latin passages. My major interest concerns Queen Anne's of Denmark and Queen Elizabeth I's sections, but I want the background information too. I know this is long, but to anyone who has struggled through it whether you can help or not thank you! If anyone prefers to answer off list, please do. Meg talk2meg@mychoice.net (The more I become "educated," the more I know I don't know. SIGH!!) ------------------------------ gileshill@aol.com[33,113]CSuX:please help--longish Subject: Re: Please help--longish From: Gileshill@AOL.COM Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 21:30:01 -0400 > (1) Is Janet Arnold, the author of Patterns of Fashion: The cut and > construction of clothes for men and women c1560-1620, the married surname > for Janet Winter, the author of Elizabethan Costuming For the Years > 1550-1580? (I have both books.) Nope... Ms Arnold is a sweet little old lady who lives in England, and I believe that Ms Winter is a (presumably) sweet lady that lives in Northern California. > (2) If the above is not true, is Janet Winter's book a dependable source > for an amateur in costuming who can sew fairly well and can follow a flat > pattern diagram? Yes, absolutely. (Although my stuffy academic self has to observe that while "Elizabethan Costuming" is an excellent source for -quelle surprize- Elizabethan costuming, it is not a serious study of the period's clothing, decorative esthetics, nomenclature, or pattern construction. It just tells you how to make costumes that look Elizabethan, and will probably pass costume approval for the Faire(s) with flying colors. I believe that Ms Winter made the copy of the Earl of Liecester's red/sienna/whatever leather suit that Robert Young wore for the Rennaissance Pleasure Faires... and that was _very_ well done.) > (3) Winter mentions crochet Oooops... reached the end of my competence! Giles Orange County, California ------------------------------ john labarthe [22,114]CSuX:cutting fabric Subject: Cutting fabric From: John LaBarthe Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 10:53:05 +0930 Dear all Thankyou for your help and suggestions about my query some time back about red candle wax and removal of same from carpet and Ren. dress. I have a new question, which is probably a trifle obvious, but I get confused about this, and hope some of you may be able to set me straight. I have a pattern for a medieval dress, circa 1066, which requires being cut on the cross of the fabric. Which way does this mean folding the fabric? I never got the hang of this, so any info on this would be greatly appreciated. (I feel awfully silly and know this is awfully obvious, but forgive a confused Australian lass!) Thanks Lydie. ------------------------------ End of H-COSTUME Digest - 2 Jun 1997 to 3 Jun 1997 ************************************************** h-costume-digest-approval@world.std.com (h-costume-digest)[8,115]CSuX:h-costume-digest v1 #3 Subject: h-costume-digest V1 #3 From: h-costume-digest-approval@world.std.com (h-costume-digest) Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 14:58:26 -0400 (EDT) h-costume-digest Wednesday, June 4 1997 Volume 01 : Number 003 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- glenn and shanda grieb [19,116]CSuX:questions? Subject: H-COST: Re: questions? From: Glenn and Shanda Grieb Date: Tue, 03 Jun 1997 14:22:42 -0500 - -Poster: Glenn and Shanda Grieb (snip)James Stubbings wrote: > > dear All > > Can anyone help me in my search for pen pals?? So far I have had a few > replies but no one is returning my e-mails? Why is this person looking for "pen-pals" here? Is it just me, or does this seem a bit inappropriate for the list? Why can't he just communicate through the list like the rest of us if he's interested in Elizabethan/Victorian era? Don't mean to be rude, but this just seems kinda strange to me. Just my thoughts... Shanda ------------------------------ gail decamp [43,117]CSuX:burning edges of fabric: wait! Subject: H-COST: Burning edges of fabric: Wait! From: Gail DeCamp Date: Tue, 3 Jun 97 12:59:14 -0000 - -Poster: Gail DeCamp > Do not try this! Burning edges to prevent fraying works only on >synthetic materials, and will do nothing to linen or any other natural >fiber but destroy it. Althoough this might work with a synthetic fabric or >a high-synthetic blend, it can not have been a technique used in the period >because there were no synthetics invented until the mid-nineteenth century. Well, wait. I recall reading that the Victorians singed the ends of hair to prevent split ends. If they could do this to human hair, that was still on a human head, without destroying the entire hair and the person attached to the hair at the time, then perhaps German tailors also had a way of "singeing" wool. (As a side note, can't you just see a Victorian mother trying to singe the hair of a squirming child? Hmmm... small children... fire.... delicate operation. Oooh, maybe I don't ever want to try this myself.) I don't have my references here with me, so this is total speculation- has anyone tried this, or can anyone tell me whether these theories are good ones? I recall from the discussions of re-enactment and cooking in historic houses in long skirts that wool does not burn very easily; instead, it smolders. I also vaguely recall seeing older metal tools that were used for pinking (small stars, circles, buttonhole-sized slashes); perhaps these tools were heated and then used for pinking or slashing? Alternatively, what if the gum arabic was applied to the spot to be slashed, left to dry, then a hot pinking tool was used to slash or pink? What would happen to the gum arabic then? Would it fuse or chemically change due to the heat? Cheers, Gail DeCamp ------------------------------ albertcat@aol.com[21,118]CSuX:not necessarily german puff and slash Subject: H-COST: Re: Not necessarily German puff and slash From: AlbertCat@aol.com Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 15:57:06 -0400 (EDT) - -Poster: AlbertCat@aol.com All this talk started me thinking [dangerous & unlikely as that may seem]. I've made one slashed doublet. I kept the slashes on the bias & no longer than 2". I also interfaced them w/...you guessed it ...black fusible knit. Worked like a charm. But what if you thought of the slashes as decorative button holes...a whole new world opens up. It ain't accurate but..... Do them like welt button holes Piped button holes Bound buttonholes [these 3 could be self fabric] or Hand embroider the edges [pull threads from some scrap to match] Of course you can use contrasting edgings too but that's *really* not accurate. However, after you've embroidered in gold all the slashes on your royal blue silk doublet, everyone will be in awe of your skill & patience & to hell w/ accuracy! [just keep it tasteful] ------------------------------ cynthia virtue [25,119]CSuX:burning edges of fabric: wait! Subject: Re: H-COST: Burning edges of fabric: Wait! From: Cynthia Virtue Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 13:33:24 -0700 (PDT) - -Poster: Cynthia Virtue On Tue, 3 Jun 1997, Gail DeCamp wrote: > Well, wait. I recall reading that the Victorians singed the ends of hair > to prevent split ends. If they could do this to human hair, that was Er, forgive my ignorance, but do we know if this *worked*? Certainly a hair will frizzle up if you burn it, but does it stop split ends? Lord knows various cultures thought X, Y, or Z was efficatious, when it wasn't (Washed any warts in morning dew recently to make them go away?) However, even if this worked on individual hairs, a fabric ravels because the individuals hairs don't all stick together. So we'd need a non-synthetic solution that sticks all the hairs together (like the gum arabic mentioned) rather than one that produces an effect on each hair individually. Your knowledge of Victorian hairdressing may come in handy -- what did they use for "hair spray" equivalent? That might work on fabric to keep all the fibers together, too. Cynthia ------------------------------ blackcat =^. .^= [59,120]CSuX:historic costume in film...sorta Subject: Re: H-COST: Re: historic costume in film...sorta From: "BlackCat =^. .^=" Date: Tue, 03 Jun 1997 14:07:43 -0700 - -Poster: "BlackCat =^. .^=" Dale Loberger wrote: > > -Poster: Dale Loberger > > Erica wrote: > >I don't remember who it was that mentioned the Highlander movies as > >possible resources for fairly accurate costume ideas (Susannah, was it > >you?), but I was wondering if anyone has seen the Highlander TV series. > >I've drooled over several costumes from it, though I don't really know > >enough to tell their accuracy. Please, let me know how you all, being the > >amazingly well studied group you are, would rate this show. Regardless, > >I'll still be watching it if for no other reason that to see Adrian Paul > >for an hour. > > > >Erica Stevens > > Dear Erica, > I didnt really say you should get ideas from the movie "The > Highlander." I was actually asking the list what everybody else > thought. I havent seen anybody at all reply to it but then I dont > always get all the replies, I dont think, because I know Ive missed > some posts that get copied into others posts later are you still with > me? Its late and Ive been at this a little too long tonite anyway, > Im with you on staying up to watch Adrian. Hes better than Sean > Connery was at his age, only because hes such a 90s type of > gentle-macho tough guy with dark eyes you can drink in and drown in... > Oh, so very yum a recent interview with him gives the sad news that > hes cut his hair, however, and that this is the Last Season for the > show. () > > My friend Jason of the 84th Highlanders says the original "Highlander" > movie was terrible as to costumes, but at the time he thought it was the > most powerful movie he had ever seen & he loved it, bearing in mind he > was in his late teens then. He tells me the TV series, when it is shot > in France, is actually much better for costuming. Apparently, they have > a different set of people doing the costumes over there. Take that, > Hollywood. Well, the movie had really good costuming ~ it's a shame that it wasn't all from the same period ;) They kind of mixed and matched from about 900AD-1500AD, looked great, but not very accurate. The series however, is pretty good (at least for the periods that I know enough about to judge). I haven't seen anything yet that really jumped out at me as "horribly wrong". The flashback scenes of Duncan's youth were pretty good, except for the fact that it looked like everyone was dressing out of the same closet (*no* I don't mean the fact that they are all wearing the same plaid). The only thing that I really noticed with those scenes was the fact that they were carrying mid 18th century basket-hilted claymores in the late 16th-early 17th century (the hilts looked quite different). Oh well, it's still a great show dispite the nit-picking & I still watch it mostly for the flashback scenes. --~Chris http://www.geocities.com/broadway/6297 ------------------------------ djmbs@aol.com[39,121]CSuX:questions? Subject: Fwd: H-COST: Re: questions? From: Djmbs@aol.com Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 19:00:13 -0400 (EDT) - -Poster: Djmbs@aol.com In a message dated 97-06-03 16:30:09 EDT, glenniusq@globaldialog.com (Glenn and Shanda Grieb) writes: << Why is this person looking for "pen-pals" here? Is it just me, or does this seem a bit inappropriate for the list? Why can't he just communicate through the list like the rest of us if he's interested in Elizabethan/Victorian era? Don't mean to be rude, but this just seems kinda strange to me. Just my thoughts... >> May they are shy . - --------------------- Forwarded message: From: glenniusq@globaldialog.com (Glenn and Shanda Grieb) Sender: h-costume-approval@world.std.com Reply-to: glenniusq@globaldialog.com (Glenn and Shanda Grieb) To: h-costume@world.std.com - -Poster: Glenn and Shanda Grieb (snip)James Stubbings wrote: > > dear All > > Can anyone help me in my search for pen pals?? So far I have had a few > replies but no one is returning my e-mails? Why is this person looking for "pen-pals" here? Is it just me, or does this seem a bit inappropriate for the list? Why can't he just communicate through the list like the rest of us if he's interested in Elizabethan/Victorian era? Don't mean to be rude, but this just seems kinda strange to me. Just my thoughts... Shanda ------------------------------ asia reva poppers [26,122]CSuX:not necessarily german puff and slash Subject: H-COST: Re: Not necessarily German puff and slash From: Asia Reva Poppers Date: Tue, 03 Jun 1997 19:16:49 -0400 - -Poster: Asia Reva Poppers - -Poster: AlbertCat@aol.com wrote: >Of course you can use contrasting edgings too but that's *really* not >accurate. However, after you've embroidered in gold all the slashes on your >royal blue silk doublet, everyone will be in awe of your skill & patience & >to hell w/ accuracy! [just keep it tasteful] Who says Landsknechts were tasteful, or even vaguely concerned with taste? I have friends with outfits called things like "The Mustard Nightmare Dress." The impression I am under is that the goal was to be as bright and ostentatiously obnnoxious in one's dress as possible, especially after Maximillian decreed that since Landsknechts had such short, miserable lives, which they spent in service to the Empire, they were exempt from all sumptuary laws and taxes, and could wear whatever they wanted/could get their hands on. I can try to find the documentation on the above statement, if anyone cares, but the person who told it to me was a better researcher than I am, and I'm not sure I can get ahold of her. But I'll try. ------------------------------ asia reva poppers [40,123]CSuX:burning edges of fabric: wait! Subject: Re: H-COST: Burning edges of fabric: Wait! From: Asia Reva Poppers Date: Tue, 03 Jun 1997 19:34:16 -0400 - -Poster: Asia Reva Poppers >-Poster: Cynthia Virtue >On Tue, 3 Jun 1997, Gail DeCamp wrote: >> Well, wait. I recall reading that the Victorians singed the ends of hair >> to prevent split ends. If they could do this to human hair, that was >Er, forgive my ignorance, but do we know if this *worked*? Certainly a >hair will frizzle up if you burn it, but does it stop split ends? Lord >knows various cultures thought X, Y, or Z was efficatious, when it wasn't >(Washed any warts in morning dew recently to make them go away?) Also, burning the ends of your hair would "prevent" split ends in a way--it would remove them. Just burn them off, and no split ends, until new ones form, and then you singe again. Just a thought, though the flaw in my theory is that it would seem just as easy to _trim_ one's hair to deal with split ends as to burn it. I really can't imagine that singeing any natural fiber would work to seal cut edges--I've burn-tested too many swatches to test for fiber content. Wool may smoulder rather than catch flame, but it still burns to ash if it's pure wool or a natural blend--in my experience, all natural fibers and rayon; that is, all fibers which come exclusively from vegetable or animal sources, and all blends of such fibers, burn to ash or to an ashy ball that crushes readily into-you guessed it--fine ash, and do not melt. As far as I have seen, only fabrics which contain synthetic, petroleum-based fibers melt when they burn and form a hard ball when they cool. Also, in a careless momen, I've had my hair catch fire--just a small lock, but it burned almost all the way up, and though I didn't notice any effect this may have had as regards split ends, the inch or so that was left after the rest burned was bristly, just as if it had been cut, and not all stuck together like doll hair would have been. (I an _not_ a pyromaniac. Heh.) ------------------------------ maggiros@aol.com[24,124]CSuX:not necessarily german puff and slash Subject: Re: H-COST: Re: Not necessarily German puff and slash From: MaggiRos@aol.com Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 22:56:54 -0400 (EDT) - -Poster: MaggiRos@aol.com In a message dated 97-06-03 18:00:03 EDT, AlbertCat@AOL.COM writes: > > But what if you thought of the slashes as decorative button holes...a whole > new world opens up. LOL. You know I was just thinking about that. I did it once on the diagonal cuts like this on the garde of a waffenrock (I think). \ / / \ Just ran long (3-4" if I recall) buttonholes on the machine, then slashed the centers, so the edges were perfectly overcast. Being at knee level, the machining didn't really show, and the fabric underneath showed through more and more as gravity simply did its job and opened them up. I don't know that I'd do this for anything really long, like panes. MaggiRos ------------------------------ maggiros@aol.com[18,125]CSuX:german puff and slash Subject: Re: H-COST: Re: German puff and slash From: MaggiRos@aol.com Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 01:33:19 -0400 (EDT) - -Poster: MaggiRos@aol.com In a message dated 97-06-03 12:55:00 EDT, jfalsken@ricochet.net (Joycelyn Falsken) writes: > > Now please don't cringe, but colored felt work great... maybe that's why > they're called "Magic Markers".... ;-) oooh, sorry, I couldn't help > myself.... LOL, You SHOULD be sorry girl. And the felt doesn't hold up to 9 weeks of Battle Pageant very well. Or so I should suppose. The last time anyone did that was a long time ago--if it wasn't just a trick of the light at the time. MaggiRos ------------------------------ joycelyn falsken [27,126]CSuX:please help--longish Subject: H-COST: Re: Please help--longish From: Joycelyn Falsken Date: Tue, 03 Jun 1997 22:31:37 -0700 - -Poster: Joycelyn Falsken Gileshill@AOL.COM wrote: > > "Elizabethan Costuming" is an excellent source for -quelle surprize- > Elizabethan costuming, it is not a serious study of the period's clothing, > decorative esthetics, nomenclature, or pattern construction. It just tells > you how to make costumes that look Elizabethan, and will probably pass > costume approval for the Faire(s) with flying colors. I believe that Ms > Winter made the copy of the Earl of Liecester's red/sienna/whatever leather > suit that Robert Young wore for the Rennaissance Pleasure Faires... and that > was _very_ well done.) Ditto on the recommendation for the above book to pass costume approval at faires. But I need to correct you on something. I believe that Carolyn Savoy, the coauthor of Elizabethan Costuming, made the georgeous replication of Leicester's famous red suit worn in past years by Robert Young. She has recently moved to Arizona. > - -- Joycelyn jfalsken@ricochet.net ------------------------------ joycelyn falsken [28,127]CSuX:german puff and slash Subject: Re: H-COST: Re: German puff and slash From: Joycelyn Falsken Date: Tue, 03 Jun 1997 22:39:10 -0700 - -Poster: Joycelyn Falsken MaggiRos@aol.com wrote: > > > > > Now please don't cringe, but colored felt work great... maybe that's why > > they're called "Magic Markers".... ;-) oooh, sorry, I couldn't help > > myself.... > > LOL, You SHOULD be sorry girl. And the felt doesn't hold up to 9 weeks of > Battle Pageant very well. Or so I should suppose. The last time anyone did > that was a long time ago--if it wasn't just a trick of the light at the time. > > MaggiRos I knew I'd get called on this one... (and by my favorite southern court lady, no less)...not proof reading my messages before hitting the send button... I meant felt pen, not felt. Sorry, bet you couldn't figure out why I was talking about magic markers either. 8-) (Modern felt is just about worthless -- I wish I could find a good source for wool felt....just dreamin') - -- Joycelyn jfalsken@ricochet.net ------------------------------ maggiros@aol.com[36,128]CSuX:historic costume in film...sorta Subject: Re: H-COST: Re: historic costume in film...sorta From: MaggiRos@aol.com Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 01:46:14 -0400 (EDT) - -Poster: MaggiRos@aol.com In a message dated 97-06-03 15:26:27 EDT, MSBEASLEY@AOL.COM writes: > > I may and believe I really say May be mistaken, but I believe both > Highlander > films were done by English Production Co. and English Designers. At least > the Special Effects crew was from England.( Hi Neil) 99% of the time if a > Co. is English they hire an English crew. > Ok, I guess I'll answer this up front. The production company is a Canadian/Euro company. Rysher/Gaumont Te'le'vision. They shoot half the season in Vancouver and half in Paris and thereabouts. The Euro crew draws from all over Western Europe, and many of the actors are English. They are contractually required (as I understand) to hire from Canada and the EC exclusively, including their writers (wah!). [opinion...] Over all their costume values are pretty high, even including corsetry, although not everyone wears them well. Wigs, however, are mainly awful. I'm sure in periods not my own they are less than perfect, but over all, as I say, they're way better than you expect a TV show to be. [end opinion] For those unfamiliar with the show, a major portion of each episode is a flashback in the life of the "immortal" hero. That means every week they are dipping into someone's collection or someone's research for everything from the Bronze Age (ignore the face paint I think) to a 1950's golf party. I am constantly amazed at the quality. MaggiRos ------------------------------ maggiros@aol.com[23,129]CSuX:not necessarily german puff and slash Subject: Re: H-COST: Re: Not necessarily German puff and slash From: MaggiRos@aol.com Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 01:59:28 -0400 (EDT) - -Poster: MaggiRos@aol.com In a message dated 97-06-03 20:28:59 EDT, apoppers@div.harvard.edu (Asia Reva Poppers) writes: > The impression I am under is that the goal was to be as bright and > ostentatiously obnnoxious in one's dress as possible, especially after > Maximillian decreed that since Landsknechts had such short, miserable > lives, which they spent in service to the Empire, they were exempt from all > sumptuary laws and taxes, and could wear whatever they wanted/could get > their hands on. > That's the truth, although at the moment I'll.... uh... wait for Julie or Erin to actually find the citation. Thre's something on it in Moxey's "Peasants, Warriors, and Wives". Basically it comes down to "Max said we could." MaggiRos. ------------------------------ teddy [31,130]CSuX:h-costume-digest v1 #2 Subject: H-COST: Re: h-costume-digest V1 #2 From: TEDDY Date: Wed, 04 Jun 1997 10:32:06 +0000 (GMT) - -Poster: TEDDY > From: Cynthia Becht > Subject: Re: H-COST: Re: German puff and slash > Renaissance art, I was surprised to find an early-mid 16th cent. portrait > of a young woman wearing a gown with slashed sleeves that were lined with a > contrasting fabric. Does this ring a bell? This being a book on Italian I don't know how common it was but I recently did this on an entire dress (sleeves included) and it looked great. Outer fabric of gold- brovade a plain deep-green lining. When inside out, the dress looked like a green one with gold brocade guards around the skirt and a very narrow gold "edge" to the slashes. As the gold brocade was very thin and drapy, with a high tendency to fray, I backed each piece in cotton-drill and zigged all the edges before making up, but a reasonably heavy fusible would probably have worked just as well and saved me hours at the sewing machine! Teddy teddy1@mdx.ac.uk ====================== Bibliographical Services Dept. * If a costume's worth * Middlesex University * making, it's worth * Bounds Green Road * making well enough * London, N11 2NQ * for every-day wear. * England ====================== Tel No.(0181) 362 6405 ------------------------------ dale loberger [45,131]CSuX:historic costume in film...sorta Subject: Re: H-COST: Re: historic costume in film...sorta From: Dale Loberger Date: Wed, 04 Jun 1997 08:10:02 -0400 - -Poster: Dale Loberger In a message dated 6/3/1997 04:52:51 AM, you wrote: <I didn t really say you should get ideas from the movie "The >Highlander." (snip) >My friend Jason of the 84th Highlanders says the original "Highlander" >movie was terrible as to costumes, but at the time he thought it was the >most powerful movie he had ever seen & he loved it, bearing in mind he >was in his late teens then. He tells me the TV series, when it is shot >in France, is actually much better for costuming. Apparently, they have >a different set of people doing the costumes over there. Take that, >Hollywood. > >I may and believe I really say May be mistaken, but I believe both Highlander >films were done by English Production Co. and English Designers. At least >the Special Effects crew was from England.( Hi Neil) 99% of the time if a >Co. is English they hire an English crew. I was speaking of the TV show, not the movie. According to the credits, at times the show is shot on location in France. You kindof have to follow the plot line (like a soap opera). It has been a couple of years since I watched it regularly but I used to be really addicted to it. As I remember, not only the costumes but the whole plot and everything was better and more interesting when it was shot in France, as opposed to New York or England or wherever else they moved it to. This is not to say they didnt use an English crew, which is still not "Hollywood" in my book, being located in a completely different country and all. And I really thought, but I cant substantiate as to why, that different folks did the movie and the TV show. I do remember that "Duncan" is a 70-year-younger relative of the movie hero, "Connor," to alleviate too much comparison between the two characters. And I hope I spelled that right. Anyway, the original QUESTION was, "Whats good about this film?" --I get good reports about the TV show, but I was wondering about the original film itself. Any takers? Susannah Eanes, Mantua Maker and Fine Tailoring (Susan Bridges Loberger for Susannahs Heirloom, Ltd.) "The past isnt dead, it isnt even past." --William Faulkner ------------------------------ gia gavino-gattshall [53,132]CSuX:h-costume-digest v1 #2 Subject: Re: H-COST: Re: h-costume-digest V1 #2 From: "Gia Gavino-Gattshall" Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 05:27:06 -0700 - -Poster: "Gia Gavino-Gattshall" > From: TEDDY > -Poster: TEDDY > > > From: Cynthia Becht > > Subject: Re: H-COST: Re: German puff and slash > > > Renaissance art, I was surprised to find an early-mid 16th cent. portrait > > of a young woman wearing a gown with slashed sleeves that were lined with a > > contrasting fabric. Does this ring a bell? This being a book on Italian > > I don't know how common it was but I recently did this on an entire > dress (sleeves included) and it looked great. Outer fabric of gold- > brovade a plain deep-green lining. When inside out, the dress looked > like a green one with gold brocade guards around the skirt and a very > narrow gold "edge" to the slashes. > > As the gold brocade was very thin and drapy, with a high tendency to > fray, I backed each piece in cotton-drill and zigged all the edges > before making up, but a reasonably heavy fusible would probably have > worked just as well and saved me hours at the sewing machine! > Teddy Hi! The dress sounds lovely! I must say that while fusibles (pellon and woven) do save hours of zigging at the sewing machine, I have found that the fusibles adhesive eventually "gives up the ghost" far sooner than the demise of the garment. While I do know how to sucessfully apply fusibles, I have found IMPE that they are *generally* unreliable. It may be because my garments (modern and medieval) *generally* get worn frequently and in sometimes 'garment unfriendly' cirmcumstances, therefore washed frequently during the life of the garment. Depending on the fabric I would wash it on gentle or regular cycle. Considering I have a two year old who loves puddles and a thirteen year old that sometimes forgets what the hamper is for, the garments survive pretty well. So, I still sit at my machine and sew on my interfacings. Happy sewing! Gia ggavino@serv.net ------------------------------ karren schaeffer [15,133]CSuX:burning edges of fabric: more on hair Subject: Re: H-COST: Burning edges of fabric: More on hair From: Karren Schaeffer Date: Wed, 04 Jun 1997 08:08:09 -0700 - -Poster: Karren Schaeffer Quick comment on the burning hair comments. Yes, it works, I have done it. In other decades I wore my hair very long, right at my knees. Not only do the ends split some, but there are fine splits along this very long expanse of hair. I would take a small section, twist it as tight as I could (this makes those little splits stand away from the shaft) and pass a candle flame along the twist to singe off the ends. Hard to do alone, and harder to find someone I trusted near my head with an open flame. Lo tech but effective. Karren ------------------------------ pulliam@acadia.net (deborah pulliam)[25,134]CSuX:j. arnold Subject: H-COST: J. Arnold From: pulliam@acadia.net (Deborah Pulliam) Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 11:26:44 -0500 - -Poster: pulliam@acadia.net (Deborah Pulliam) <<(1) Is Janet Arnold, the author of Patterns of Fashion: The cut and construction of clothes for men and women c1560-1620, the married surname for Janet Winter, the author of Elizabethan Costuming For the Years 1550-1580? (I have both books.)>> Janet Arnold (who is not married) writes only as Janet Arnold (and I personally don't consider mid 60a to be old, particularly as I know how active and energetic Janet is)! Her complete publications listed was posted on H Costume on March 25, 1997, so you should be able to find it through archives. She's working now on what will be, yes, the next installment of the "Patterns of Fashion" series, on shirts, shifts, ruffs, etc. from c 1540 - 1650, to be published by Macmillan at an *unknown* date (sorry, but with publishers, it's not published until it's published.) Deborah ------------------------------ joycelyn falsken [25,135]CSuX:highlander Subject: Re: H-COST: Re: Highlander From: Joycelyn Falsken Date: Wed, 04 Jun 1997 09:10:12 -0700 - -Poster: Joycelyn Falsken > Anyway, the original QUESTION was, "What's good about this film?" --I > get good reports about the TV show, but I was wondering about the > original film itself. Any takers? > Having loved the movie years ago and being a fan of the TV show, I recently purchased and rewatched the movie. What a disappointment, I am sorry to say that the costumes are not that good, really, and the intensity of the plot line has waned...as often happens to old movies.I always liked the scenes in Scotland, but can't comment on the authenticity, this not being my area. My 13 year old son reminded me of a later Highlander movie (the third one?) we saw a couple years ago in the theatre, about the bad guys getting buried in a cave in China and archeologists letting them out in this century... That was a cool one and I enjoyed the Chinese settings/costumes. But I know zip about Eastern historic dress. - -- Joycelyn jfalsken@ricochet.net ------------------------------ dunham patricia r [54,136]CSuX:cutting fabric Subject: H-COST: RE: Cutting fabric From: DUNHAM Patricia R Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 09:42:00 -0700 - -Poster: DUNHAM Patricia R Hmm, I would suspect that "on the cross" is Brit-English for "on the bias"? (which would mean lining up the long direction of the pattern pieces at a 45 degree angle to the long direction of the fabric (45 degrees relative to the selvage edges)). A 1066 bias-cut sounds very unlikely, IMPE (oh, I like that one, just saw it for the irst time). I have made one dress cut like this (with some difficulty), a long time ago (ca. 20 yrs), and do NOT now think bias cuts are a likely medieval real thing. (I think I had my doubts then, but the dress is VERY flattering, or was, 60 pounds ago.) One of the reasons flat patterning is prevalent in early periods is that it's the most logical way to make maximum efficient use of the product of an expensive/time-intensive technology (spinning/weaving). I think my one experience was based on a modern costume designer's idea of a shortcut that would produce the fullness found in true medieval cuts, without using so much material (altho you can't say bias cutting is exactly efficient!) Drat, what do you know, the public library may not still have that book-- only 20+ years old... I think it was an English "school plays costume" book, rather better than most, she'd written two, I think; I'd recognize the name & title. May I ask where your pattern is from? and what the dress is supposed to look like? Is it the Byzantine mosaic dancer's dress, straight across above the bosom and way wide at the shoulders? and quite close fitting over the bosom and to the waist? (I think the dancer has what looks like a white fur edging on the neckline) that's the image I used to justify using the pattern 8-). Patricia R. Dunham - Eugene Public - 100 W 13th Ave - 97401 patricia.r.dunham@ci.eugene.or.us - 541-984-8321 http://204.203.17.34/library (EPL) <<<>>> http://members.aol.com/gerekr/medieval.html (home) ---------- (snip) | | I have a pattern for a medieval dress, circa 1066, which requires being cut | on the cross of the fabric. Which way does this mean folding the fabric? I | never got the hang of this, so any info on this would be greatly | appreciated. (I feel awfully silly and know this is awfully obvious, but | forgive a confused Australian lass!) | | Thanks | | Lydie. | ------------------------------ msbeasley@aol.com[38,137]CSuX:historic costume in film...sorta Subject: Re: H-COST: Re: historic costume in film...sorta From: MSBEASLEY@aol.com Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 13:06:06 -0400 (EDT) - -Poster: MSBEASLEY@aol.com Dear Susannah and the List Well on my own advise, I went out and rented the original Highlander Movie( which was all I ever was discussing). Considering it was made in 1985, it's not a bad film. I certainly got good research on 1985 especially her earrings(Yipes). That's beside the point. Historically speaking - the year was 1536 Scotland. The clan McCloud. Even though this is not my period and know only a little - I thought it was nicely done. Lots of Fur pieces and he wears an interesting shirt. I believe there was a discussion about linen shirts from this time period. Certainly the cut was correct,though not enough seams if you go for the theory of the small loom at the time. I did find the blue of his kilt a bit bright( was there really that color available in the16C). Sean Connery looked very good) as Spanish Royalty. His costume seemed true to the period, though perhaps a little later. There is one big market scene which I have certain doubts about. Too much odd colors for me. The Amour and weapons of course should be left to the experts. As far as the TV series it is fun. Whether it's in Vancouver or France. Well needless to say I'd like to hear other opinions. It's a good topic,should anyone care to join. Certainly better than those nasty side tracks. Be fore warned The video of the Film is very rare, I had to give a healthy deposit for the rental,seems they aren't making any more copies. Good luck. And waiting for a informative discussion ,perhaps B. Scott P.S. The Costume Designer was Jim Acheson (Who I do believe is English) anybody know for sure??? ------------------------------ deb [26,138]CSuX:late 18thc--levite gown Subject: RE: H-COST: Late 18thC--Levite Gown From: Deb Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 14:51:41 -0400 - -Poster: Deb >Is anyone on the list familiar with Levite gowns >(aka Robe ala Turk and Robe ala Circissian)?? Based >on the small amount of commentary I could find, they >were essentially wraparound gowns tied with a sash. I've seen etchings of one (or more?) of these (maybe one of each, I'm not sure) in a book of French etchings. I don't know any more than that, but can look at the etchings if you want to know something in particular. >I do not >understand how the dress looked so fitted to the >individual's stays when it was wrapped and sashed. I thought they looked pretty ghastly in the etchings -- like a bathrobe -- and wondered how they came to be high fashion! Deb Baddorf baddorf@fnal.gov ------------------------------ joan m jurancich [42,139]CSuX:minimizing fraying (was german puff and slash) Subject: H-COST: Minimizing fraying (was Re: German puff and slash) From: Joan M Jurancich Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 14:54:05 -0400 - -Poster: Joan M Jurancich At 12:08 PM 6/1/97 -0500, Glenn and Shanda Grieb wrote: >(snip)> Dave E. wrote: >> >>Any suggestions on how to keep my slops, canions and sleeves from >unraveling? > >My first thought would be to employ the use of fray check. But, >obviously this is not exactly period. Actually, in Patterns of Fashion Arnold shows a close-up of slashes in velvet that have been edged with wax (my first thought was "a-ha, period fraycheck"). >[snip] Perhaps the fabrics one uses is >the key. I've seen leather used which, of course, doesn't fray so it >isn't a problem. Are there particular fabrics that when slashed offer a >controlled amount of fraying? [snip] >Shanda If you cut the slashes on the bias, they don't unravel, the edges just get a bit fuzzy. Of course, for best results use a fairly tightly woven fabric (good quality wools are great). This even works with velvets or velveteen. Seems to me that most of the pinking patterns I have seen in portraits (and the few surviving garments) have bias cuts; the slashing (not panes, but slashes) also seems to be on the bias. Panes, cut on the straight, do need to have the edges finished; such finishing could be a binding (bias strips, ribbon, etc.) or a lining or simply turning the edge and covering the raw edge with trim. Joan Jurancich Sacramento, California joanj@quiknet.com ================================== ------------------------------ the stevens family [49,140]CSuX:h-costume-digest v1 #2 Subject: H-COST: Re: h-costume-digest V1 #2 From: The Stevens Family Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 14:58:17 -0400 - -Poster: The Stevens Family > Hope Greenberg wrote: > > > Henry V and it is claimed that the costumes and props are the most > > accurate since Globe II was forcibly closed in 1642. > > Interesting -- an article I saw last year in the LA Times on the New > Globe said that they planned to follow period practice and have the > actors provide their own costumes or wear street clothes (in other > words, they would be using contemporary clothing for today, not > Shakespeare's period). I wonder when they changed their mind and for > what reason? I'm willing to bet odds that someone decided that people > just wouldn't buy into a Shakespearean play without period Elizabethan > clothes to go with it. > > Carolyn I'm not sure that's the point they are trying to make. I know Bill responded the remarks about people not buying into a Shakespearean play without the period costumes, so I won't go into that. What I will say is this, I visited the site of what would be the "New Globe" when I was in London several years ago. From talking to the ladies and gentlemen there I got the impression that they are trying to recreate as much of the period style as possible in order to create the atmosphere of the original Globe. They seemed to want a place where those interested in Shakespeare can gather an idea of what it would have been like to see a play performed in his day, (I just hope they don't let the thieves roam among the people watching the play!) but they are not saying that it is completely authentic. I think they are well aware that it is not possible to truthfully look at a visitor and say, "This is exactly how it was." Of course, I did have one little complaint with these folks. They treated an entire group of University English students as if we knew absoultely nothing about Shakespeare. Nevermind that many of us had actually performed the Bard's works... *sigh* Erica ------------------------------ End of h-costume-digest V1 #3 ***************************** automatic digest processor [20,141]CSuX:h-costume digest - 3 jun 1997 to 4 jun 1997 Subject: H-COSTUME Digest - 3 Jun 1997 to 4 Jun 1997 From: Automatic digest processor Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 00:01:55 -0400 There are 13 messages totalling 413 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. questions? 2. Cutting fabric 3. J. Arnold 4. textile research 5. Linen from Jo-Ann's 6. The Globe - c17th Dyes 7. H-COST: Re: questions? 8. H-COST: Wool alternatives 9. Weighted Chains - my experience 10. Victorian Hairdressings 11. French Seams 12. h-costume-digest V1 #3 13. Stain on brocade ---------------------------------------------------------------------- maggie pierce [15,142]CSuX:questions? Subject: Re: questions? From: Maggie Pierce Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 01:36:53 -0400 In a message dated 97-06-03 13:34:20 EDT, stubbings@HOTMAIL.COM (James Stubbings) writes: > > Can anyone help me in my search for pen pals?? So far I have had a few > replies but no one is returning my e-mails? Honestly, I thought the whole list was "pen pals". Aren't we? You bring up anything about Elizabethans or Victorians in particular and you'll get lots of replies, and even make some friends. Chat away! MaggiRos ------------------------------ leslie h [27,143]CSuX:cutting fabric Subject: Re: Cutting fabric From: Leslie H Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 01:37:26 +0000 You will probably get lots of answers---here is mine: The selvages are the woven edges of the fabric--on 45" fabric, the selveges are 45" apart. They run down each edge of the whole bolt of fabric. (Think "self-edge") Most garments are cut lengthwise--with the "grainline" on the pattern running parallel to the selvages, and the hem of the garments perpendicular to the selvages.. When you cut across the grain (crossgrain) you use the selvages as the "top" and "bottom" directions of the garment. The selvage could form the hem of the garment, if you determine the right length of the garment before you cut it, and if your prewashing (if needed) has shown that the selvage isn't going to shrink more than the fabric. The lengthwise grain of most fabrics is stronger than the crosswise grain, so things are usually cut with the lengthwise grain running up and down to help stabilize the garment against gravity. Some fabrics will stretch quite a bit on the crossgrain (you can get a general idea of this by pulling on the fabric in both directions) and are not good candidates for crossgrain cutting. Leslie ------------------------------ deborah pulliam [21,144]CSuX:j. arnold Subject: J. Arnold From: Deborah Pulliam Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 11:26:44 -0500 <<(1) Is Janet Arnold, the author of Patterns of Fashion: The cut and construction of clothes for men and women c1560-1620, the married surname for Janet Winter, the author of Elizabethan Costuming For the Years 1550-1580? (I have both books.)>> Janet Arnold (who is not married) writes only as Janet Arnold (and I personally don't consider mid 60a to be old, particularly as I know how active and energetic Janet is)! Her complete publications listed was posted on H Costume on March 25, 1997, so you should be able to find it through archives. She's working now on what will be, yes, the next installment of the "Patterns of Fashion" series, on shirts, shifts, ruffs, etc. from c 1540 - 1650, to be published by Macmillan at an *unknown* date (sorry, but with publishers, it's not published until it's published.) Deborah ------------------------------ heather leigh harrison [19,145]CSuX:textile research Subject: textile research From: Heather Leigh Harrison Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 11:31:34 -0400 Am wondering if any of you can recommend some good books showing textiles of the 19th century. Specifically I want something with good, clear photo's and descriptions so that I can easily identify printed and woven patterns as well as colors. I'm also more interested in clothing fabric rather than tapestries, upholstery or coverlets. My main focal point is 1870's in the northeastern seaboard of the US but I would also welcome imported fabrics available at that time. And of course, info. prior to (or after) my specific dates will be helpful as well. (I can't imagine we are the only society in history to ever collect fabric and not use it for a while!!) I own "The Illustrated History of Textiles" by Madeleine Ginsburg, which is very good but covers a BROAD range of time periods and types of textile, so it doesn't have too much that fits my bill. (It has great pictures and descriptions though, if anyone else is interested.) Thank you in advance for sharing your resources. Heather ------------------------------ joan m jurancich [22,146]CSuX:linen from jo-ann s Subject: Re: Linen from Jo-Ann's From: Joan M Jurancich Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 08:33:14 -0700 Susannah, Sounds like you, too, got a mis-labelled lot. Joan At 09:10 AM 6/3/97 -0700, Susannah Gort wrote: >I remember a couple of weeks ago a thread about someone who'd bought >something labelled '100% linen' from Jo-Ann's and found that it wasn't. >This inspired me to try washing up the 100% handkerchief linen I'd got >from the same source, and sure enough, it didn't get appreciably softer. >So I burnt a bit. It burned with a bright flame and left brownish, bitter, >sticky goo behind on the tile I burned it on. Virtually nothing of the fabric >was left. Does that sound right for linen, and it's just stubborn about >softening (hardly waht I'd want in a handkerchief), or did I get the >mis-labelled lot too? > >Susannah Gort > ------------------------------ david key [22,147]CSuX:the globe - c17th dyes Subject: Re: The Globe - c17th Dyes From: David Key Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 18:26:27 BST In a recent post regarding the reconstructed Globe Theatre I noticed the following comment > Henry V and it is claimed that the costumes and props are the most > accurate since Globe II was forcibly closed in 1642. The dyes used in > costume production for the all male cast, indigo, weld, madder and onion > skin extract treated with urine and saffron, were all specially made. ... out of curiosity does anyone have period references to the use of Onion Skins in dying cloth commercially in the c17th (or earlier ... esp. c15th) I have heard lots of people talk about the colour produced & how they have done it recently (home dying etc.) BUT I am unaware of any original source material to support the belief (not that I can remember anyway)... I am not interested in whether it could be done, or whether it was done as a home dyed technique ... just if it done commercially? Anyone out there able to help ??? Cheers, Dave ------------------------------ susan stallman [19,148]CSuX:questions? Subject: Re: H-COST: Re: questions? From: Susan Stallman Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 15:53:42 -0400 In a message dated 97-06-03 16:53:49 EDT, you write: << Why is this person looking for "pen-pals" here? Is it just me, or does this seem a bit inappropriate for the list? Why can't he just communicate through the list like the rest of us if he's interested in Elizabethan/Victorian era? Don't mean to be rude, but this just seems kinda strange to me. Just my thoughts... Shanda >> What is strange to me is that when I responded to his original query, he asked if I was married and when I replied that I was...I never heard a word from him again. It would seem that there is some criteria to being his pen-pal. What does being married have to do with talking about costuming?? Bronwen ------------------------------ doris j. nash [26,149]CSuX:wool alternatives Subject: Re: H-COST: Wool alternatives From: "Doris J. Nash" Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 15:39:38 -0500 At 03:01 PM 6/4/97 -0400, you wrote: >-Poster: Brett Harrison > > >Greetings from Sue Drain (first time poster) >I'm suggesting synthetic interlinings to retain heat, and the wearing of >modern thermal underwear under chemises & petticoats (what you don't >see...). Does anyone have any more authentic costuming ideas to help the >poor lady to stay warm? > >Thanks > >Sue >-- > How about fur? Sounds yummy to me! ;-) Doris ========================== Doris Nash Costume Shop Supervisor, Iowa State University "...with ruffs and cuffs, and farthingales and things." --Shakespeare, The Taming of the Shrew ------------------------------ amy wilson [108,150]CSuX:weighted chains - my experience Subject: Re: Weighted Chains - my experience From: Amy Wilson Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 17:14:27 +0000 --====52555552525149525053===1 Hi everyone -- I used this technique in a "trained" overskirt of an Early Tudor gown to gorgeous effect. I thought I'd share my experience. The dress is made of bengaline, a light-to-medium weight fabric with tiny vertical "ridges" in it (fabric experts -- help me describe this better! :)). I used a length of what is called (in the U.S., anyway) "lamp chain," which is similar to what Karren describes as "beaded chain" -- tiny metal beads connected by short lengths of wire. I'm sure any kind of lightweight, small-linked chain will work (too large a link and it will make your hem look bumpy), but make sure it's a NON-RUSTING chain. First, I marked and pressed up the hem. Then starting at the center front of the underskirt, I tacked one end of the chain down, and then laid the chain in the "channel" of the hem all the way around as I stitched the hem. It takes a bit of fiddling with, because you'll want the right amount of slack in the chain so that it lays nicely in down in the hem allowance. Too much slack is better than not enough. At first I tacked the chain to each seam as I came to it, but this ended up distributing the chain unevenly around the hem. In the end, I tacked the chain down only at the center fronts of the underskirt. As you stitch the hem, make sure your hand-stitches are close enough together that the chain won't be able to "escape" between them when you wash the dress or, say, pack it for transport. If you use a fusible web instead of hand-stitching (hey, I've done it, mea culpa :)), be sure to keep the chain away from it, or it will impress the chain against your fabric. The dress flows beautifully when I walk. The effort of placing the chain in the hem has been worth all the compliments I've gotten! Cheers, Amy Wilson (aka Catelin the Patient) Karren wrote (in part): >> ...I read somewhere that Queen Elizabeth and her mother both have all of >> the hems of their dresses routinely weighted in order to avoid billowing >> hemlines on a breezy day and an chance for embarassing photos. The >> article described something like a string of weights much like the >> beaded chains used for I.D. tags in the military. > >More info on hemline weights: > >Coco Chanel is credited for bringing this practice back to haute couture. >She added chains to weight her suit jackets. The chains, somewhat like a >man's chain bracelet, were various weights and sizes. They were not >enclosed in the hem, but rather tacked on about 1/4" from the inside edge. >They then became part of the fashion of the garment. > >- Shea Munroe --====52555552525149525053===1 Hi everyone --

I used this technique in a "trained" overskirt of an Early Tudor gown to gorgeous effect. I thought I'd share my experience.

The dress is made of bengaline, a light-to-medium weight fabric with tiny vertical "ridges" in it (fabric experts -- help me describe this
better! :)).

I used a length of what is called (in the U.S., anyway) "lamp chain," which is similar to what Karren describes as "beaded chain" -- tiny metal beads connected by short lengths of wire. I'm sure any kind of lightweight, small-linked chain will work (too large a link and it will make your hem look bumpy), but make sure it's a NON-RUSTING chain.

First, I marked and pressed up the hem. Then starting at the center front of the underskirt, I tacked one end of the chain down, and then laid the chain in the "channel" of the hem all the way around as I stitched the hem. It takes a bit of fiddling with, because you'll want the right amount of slack in the chain so that it lays nicely in down in the hem allowance. Too much slack is better than not enough.

At first I tacked the chain to each seam as I came to it, but this ended up distributing the chain unevenly around the hem. In the end, I tacked the chain down only at the center fronts of the underskirt.

As you stitch the hem, make sure your hand-stitches are close enough together that the chain won't be able to "escape" between them when you wash the dress or, say, pack it for transport. If you use a fusible web instead of hand-stitching (hey, I've done it, mea culpa :)), be sure to keep the chain away from it, or it will impress the chain against your fabric.

The dress flows beautifully when I walk. The effort of placing the chain in the hem has been worth all the compliments I've gotten!

Cheers,
Amy Wilson
(aka Catelin the Patient)

Karren wrote (in part):
>> ...I read somewhere that Queen Elizabeth and her mother both have all of
>> the hems of their dresses routinely weighted in order to avoid billowing
>> hemlines on a breezy day and an chance for embarassing photos. The
>> article described something like a string of weights much like the
>> beaded chains used for I.D. tags in the military.
>
>More info on hemline weights:
>
>Coco Chanel is credited for bringing this practice back to haute couture.
>She added chains to weight her suit jackets. The chains, somewhat like a
>man's chain bracelet, were various weights and sizes. They were not
>enclosed in the hem, but rather tacked on about 1/4" from the inside edge.
>They then became part of the fashion of the garment.
>
>- Shea Munroe
 --====52555552525149525053===1-- ------------------------------ glenna jo & bill christen [21,151]CSuX:victorian hairdressings Subject: Victorian Hairdressings From: Glenna Jo & Bill Christen Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 14:57:58 -0700 Cynthia Virtue wrote: > what did they use for 'hair spray" equivalent? That might work on > fabric to keep all the fibers together, too. I doubt if what they commonly used would work. Typical recipes for hair dressings had some form of oil or lard as a main ingredient. The rest was generally just scent. The use of hair oil combined with fireplace or stove heating were probably two very practical reasons for wearing night caps back then. They helped to keep the excess oil off the pillows and bed linens as well as keeping their heads warm. I've thought about taking to wearing a bed cap at times just to keep my long hair under control and not under my husband's shoulder when I want to roll over. :-) Glenna Jo Christen gwjchris@rust.net Visit The Curiosity Shop! http://www.rust.net/~gwjchris/ ------------------------------ roxann barber [18,152]CSuX:french seams Subject: Re: French Seams From: Roxann Barber Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 16:16:27 -0700 SNORTON.US.ORACLE.COM wrote: > > Sally Norton wrote: > >> I recently attended a fashion show and was struck by a > >> very interesting use of French seams. I just saw a mid 1800's quilt with a seam on the back that reminded me of the french seam you talked about. The two pieces of fabric were first basted right sides together, then trimed very tiny (1/8 in.), then on the right side whipped with a very fine whipstitch. Does anyone know if there is a name for this type of seam? A reason (ie:function?) Was it used in garments (I would assume so, but assumption is a dangerous game!) Roxy Barber ------------------------------ glenna jo & bill christen [17,153]CSuX:h-costume-digest v1 #3 Subject: Re: h-costume-digest V1 #3 From: Glenna Jo & Bill Christen Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 18:08:05 -0700 > From: Karren Schaeffer > Quick comment on the burning hair comments. Yes, it works, I have done > it. In my pre-teen years (late 1950's) I had a "flattop" haircut. The old barber who cut my hair would strike a wooden match or two and singe my hair. I just figured he knew what he was doing. Bill Christen -- gwjchris@rust.net Visit The Curiosity Shop! http://www.rust.net/~gwjchris/ ------------------------------ annikki weston [23,154]CSuX:stain on brocade Subject: Stain on brocade From: Annikki Weston Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 23:46:44 -0400 A while back, I recall seeing a lot of stuff on the treatment of stains. I don't remember this one: sweet and sour sauce on off-white brocade. Fiber content? Unknown. Most likely a little synthetic and a little cotton. Any suggestions? Worse case scenario, I redo one tab with the stain, and place more trim on the doublet inventively to cover the dribble on the front. I'd rather not, though. Thanks in advance! Nikki, who is about ready to hit her dance partner for spilling, and herself for not getting around to scotch-guarding the thing in beforehand. -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- Annikki Weston Lady Adele Desfontaines weston@tardis.svsu.edu Minister of Arts and Sciences, http://www.svsu.edu/~weston Shire of Fearann na Criche -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-Vivat, the Dream--May It Live Long!-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- ------------------------------ End of H-COSTUME Digest - 3 Jun 1997 to 4 Jun 1997 ************************************************** h-costume-digest-approval@world.std.com (h-costume-digest)[8,155]CSuX:h-costume-digest v1 #4 Subject: h-costume-digest V1 #4 From: h-costume-digest-approval@world.std.com (h-costume-digest) Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 21:18:26 -0400 (EDT) h-costume-digest Thursday, June 5 1997 Volume 01 : Number 004 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- sara j. davitt [27,156]CSuX:german puff and slash Subject: Re: H-COST: Re: German puff and slash From: "Sara J. Davitt" Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 14:58:49 -0400 - -Poster: "Sara J. Davitt" > > > >My first thought would be to employ the use of fray check. > > I think that in period they burned the slashed in. That would keep them > from fraying, Though I have no evidence.... it is possible for a sort of 'drying oil' such as linseed, to keep it from fraying... as I think that while burning would help for a little while, as soon as the 'ash' wears off, the fabric is back to fraying.... The other thing being, not to underestimate the possibility of hand stitching, and carefully turing the edges under.... (not that I plan to do *that* in the near future--- but then if you have an entourage... go for it!) Take Care, Sarahj ------------------------------ brett harrison [33,157]CSuX:wool alternatives Subject: H-COST: Wool alternatives From: Brett Harrison Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 15:01:41 -0400 - -Poster: Brett Harrison Greetings from Sue Drain (first time poster) I am in a 17th century re-enactment group, focussing on the Trained Bands of London during the English Civil War period, which strongly encourages its members to use historically accurate materials for costume. Another member would like his partner to join in - unfortunately, she can't wear wool, it brings her out in a rash. Linen is the obvious substitute, which would be great for most of the year ... temperatures here in Sydney tending to the humid subtropical a lot of the time. However we have regular winter camping events in the Southern Highlands, with frosts, cold winds rain and snow and often lots of slush and mud (forget velvet & silk!) I'm suggesting synthetic interlinings to retain heat, and the wearing of modern thermal underwear under chemises & petticoats (what you don't see...). Does anyone have any more authentic costuming ideas to help the poor lady to stay warm? Thanks Sue - -- ------------------------------ robin berry [18,158]CSuX:cutting fabric Subject: H-COST: RE: Cutting fabric From: Robin Berry Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 12:08:12 -0700 - -Poster: Robin Berry It was brought to my attention by a textile history scholar, that cutting on the bias was forbotten in most early cultures. It was believed that to cut something on the bias was to let evil into the fabric. Thus, early patterns are made from square cut cloth. In addition, red thread was used to bar evil from the cloths. Just my 2 cents. Robin L. Berry a little bit of a scholar, a little bit of a seamstress, and a whole lot curious ------------------------------ dunham patricia r [62,159]CSuX:wool alternatives Subject: Re: H-COST: Wool alternatives From: DUNHAM Patricia R Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 14:47:00 -0700 - -Poster: DUNHAM Patricia R Indeed, fur. Tandy Leather (in the US) has rabbit skins, very silky and soft, could be pieced into a lining for next to the body. Well, they're pretty thin, maybe quilted onto a linen or cotton liner would work better structurally. If you ran a fur trim edge around the outside to keep the outer frabric away from the skin, and give a surface she could grasp for putting on and off, you could even (maybe) use wool for the outer surface. Also, I have a number of chunks (mostly former coats) from Salvation Army / St Vincent / Goodwill store sources (I have no idea whether this would be a viable source in the Antipodes) ... several different furs, of different weights, but enough to cobble something up someday 8-) Or for a "medical exemption", maybe she could get an authenticity pass for a really high-quality fake fur for a lining... something that REALLY looks like a real fur (I've seen a couple of really good ones in 25 years, they're hard to find, tho) Patricia R. Dunham - Eugene Public - 100 W 13th Ave - 97401 patricia.r.dunham@ci.eugene.or.us - 541-984-8321 http://204.203.17.34/library (EPL) <<<>>> http://members.aol.com/gerekr/medieval.html (home) ---------- | From: Doris J. Nash | To: Multiple recipients of list H-COSTUME | Subject: Re: H-COST: Wool alternatives | Date: Wednesday, June 04, 1997 1:39PM | | At 03:01 PM 6/4/97 -0400, you wrote: | >-Poster: Brett Harrison | > | > | >Greetings from Sue Drain (first time poster) | | >I'm suggesting synthetic interlinings to retain heat, and the wearing of | >modern thermal underwear under chemises & petticoats (what you don't | >see...). Does anyone have any more authentic costuming ideas to help the | >poor lady to stay warm? | > | >Thanks | > | >Sue | >-- | > | How about fur? Sounds yummy to me! ;-) | Doris | ========================== | Doris Nash | Costume Shop Supervisor, Iowa State University | "...with ruffs and cuffs, and farthingales and things." | --Shakespeare, The Taming of the Shrew | ------------------------------ asia reva poppers [31,160]CSuX:wool alternatives Subject: Re: H-COST: Wool alternatives From: Asia Reva Poppers Date: Wed, 04 Jun 1997 17:51:01 -0400 - -Poster: Asia Reva Poppers The options available to your friend as regards actual wool depend a lot on how allergic she is--if she can manage it, perhaps a wool cloak or period-styled overcoat could work if it were double-or triple-lined in such a way that the lining material extends around the edges to the outside of the garment to form a sort of decorative edging. If the lining were made of a layer of heavy and/or densely woven fabric between the wool and a second lining layer made of something agreeable to the lady's skin, like heavy silk or cotton flannel, it should be thick enough to prevent contact between skin and wool. If she simply cannot have wool that close to her skin, I would suggest heavy polar fleece or thinsulate layered between layers of heavy linen or cotton flannel. If she has a bit of extra cash to devote to the effort, a coat made of two layers of washable silk with a layer of thick batting quilted or tied in between would be extra-cozy. I know that quilted petticoats are period from the eighteenth century on--I think the quilted wrap or jacket idea is not really period (at least, I have no evidence either way--this is off the top of my head, and I'm making it up as I go along) but perhaps it would be allowable due to the unusual circumstance of your friend's intolerance of wool. Hopefully, other folks who know more about this period will have some more (better) suggestions... - --Asia ------------------------------ roxann barber [23,161]CSuX:cutting fabric Subject: Re: H-COST: RE: Cutting fabric From: Roxann Barber Date: Wed, 04 Jun 1997 16:21:54 -0700 - -Poster: Roxann Barber Robin Berry wrote: > > -Poster: Robin Berry > > It was brought to my attention by a textile history scholar, that cutting > on the bias was forbotten in most early cultures. It was believed that to > cut something on the bias was to let evil into the fabric. Thus, early > patterns are made from square cut cloth. In addition, red thread was used > to bar evil from the cloths. > > Just my 2 cents. > > Robin L. Berry Robin, do you happen to have any documentation on that? Roxy Barber, fabriholic ------------------------------ william b. birner [15,162]CSuX:h-costume-digest v1 #2 Subject: Re: H-COST: Re: h-costume-digest V1 #2 From: "William B. Birner" Date: Wed, 04 Jun 1997 17:30:36 -0500 - -Poster: "William B. Birner" At 02:58 PM 6/4/97 -0400, Erica Stevens wrote: >Of course, I did have one little complaint with these folks. They >treated an entire group of University English students as if we knew >absoultely nothing about Shakespeare. Nevermind that many of us had >actually performed the Bard's works... *sigh* > >Erica Yup, Beware of Cultural Vigilantes! :-) ------------------------------ agnes gawne [40,163]CSuX:h-costume-digest v1 #3 Subject: H-COST: Re: h-costume-digest V1 #3 From: Agnes Gawne Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 15:58:36 -0700 (PDT) - -Poster: Agnes Gawne > > Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 09:42:00 -0700 > From: DUNHAM Patricia R > Subject: H-COST: RE: Cutting fabric > > - -Poster: DUNHAM Patricia R > > Hmm, I would suspect that "on the cross" is Brit-English for "on the > bias"? (which would mean lining up the long direction of the pattern > pieces at a 45 degree angle to the long direction of the fabric (45 > degrees relative to the selvage edges)). Please - you may be correct in British-English but in American English sewing classes "Cross Grain" means cut from one side selvedge to the other side selvedge, straight across - no bias at all. This makes the cut fabric a little "perkier" than a cut along the grain. If you think how fabric is woven this makes sense. You have a number of threads running along a great length - that's the grain. Then you have a number of threads crossing in and out of the grain weaving the fabric from selvedge edge to selvedge edge - that's the cross grain. Incidentally, could one of our British list members address this language question? Do the British use 'bias' to mean 45 degree angle from the selvedge edge? Do the British use the expressions 'cross grain' and 'on the grain'? I know we often have different terms for things and this would be a significant problem in giving directions if we were to be unaware of this... Thanks, Agnes Seattle, Washington, USA hoping to understand our language on both sides of the pond. ------------------------------ asia reva poppers [20,164]CSuX:elizabethan tall-crown felt hats Subject: H-COST: Elizabethan tall-crown felt hats From: Asia Reva Poppers Date: Wed, 04 Jun 1997 19:29:14 -0400 - -Poster: Asia Reva Poppers Hey, does anyone know of an on-line, mailorder, or nationwide source for the tall-crown, round-brim wool felt hats that are similar to the style that was popular in Elizabethan England? I know that they used to be available at the Berkeley Hat Company in Berkeley, CA, and that they were called the "Injun Joe" model, but as I'm now in Massachusetts, I am looking for a more accesible source. *Bonus Question* Anyone know of such a sourch that carries them in colors? Pls. reply by private email to apoppers@div.harvard.edu Thanks a bunch, - --Asia ------------------------------ dunham patricia r [33,165]CSuX:h-costume-digest v1 #3 Subject: RE: H-COST: Re: h-costume-digest V1 #3 From: DUNHAM Patricia R Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 17:00:00 -0700 - -Poster: DUNHAM Patricia R I think my initial reaction "Brit-English" was because the author whose pattern -I- remember and used was definitely British... if the Australian lady is using the same book, we ARE talking about British usage, not American. Hopefully we'll be able to sort this out more if Lydie can give us more information about her pattern source. Patsy ---------- (snip) | > Hmm, I would suspect that "on the cross" is Brit-English for "on the | > bias"? (which would mean lining up the long direction of the pattern | > pieces at a 45 degree angle to the long direction of the fabric (45 | > degrees relative to the selvage edges)). | | Please - you may be correct in British-English but in American English | sewing classes "Cross Grain" means cut from one side selvedge to the other | side selvedge, straight across - no bias at all. This makes the cut | fabric a little "perkier" than a cut along the grain. If you think how | fabric is woven this makes sense. You have a number of threads running | along a great length - that's the grain. Then you have a number of | threads crossing in and out of the grain weaving the fabric from selvedge | edge to selvedge edge - that's the cross grain. (snip) ------------------------------ asia reva poppers [16,166]CSuX:h-costume-digest v1 #3 Subject: H-COST: Re: h-costume-digest V1 #3 From: Asia Reva Poppers Date: Wed, 04 Jun 1997 20:12:13 -0400 - -Poster: Asia Reva Poppers Howdy, all. I am American, and I have been using "cross grain" to mean selvage-to-selvage, and "straight grain" to mean lengthwise, parallel to the selvages. I am not aware of any difference in this terminology between English English and my version. In my vocabulary, "true bias" lies at a 45 degree angle between the straight and the cross grains, and usually when I say "bias," that's what I mean. Just to clarify some of my previous posts. - --Asia ------------------------------ msbeasley@aol.com[13,167]CSuX:backwards Subject: H-COST: Backwards From: MSBEASLEY@aol.com Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 21:16:19 -0400 (EDT) - -Poster: MSBEASLEY@aol.com Hello list, anyone having the same trouble I am. I get the rely to the thread before I get the original thread. AOL(my carrier) says to check here as they don't know anything about it? Thanks ahead or behind as in my case B. ------------------------------ susan fatemi [29,168]CSuX:wool alternatives Subject: H-COST: Re: Wool alternatives From: Susan Fatemi Date: Wed, 04 Jun 1997 18:42:27 -0700 - -Poster: Susan Fatemi Sue, et al. > Greetings from Sue Drain (first time poster) > > I am in a 17th century re-enactment group, focussing on the Trained >>... > Another member would like his partner to join in - unfortunately, she > can't wear wool, it brings her out in a rash. I'm allergic to wool, too, even cashmere (sniff, sniff), but only if it touches my skin. Can't she wear some kind of "period" under- linen between her skin and the woolen garments?? I've also used wool fabric as "batting" in bedcovers, and in a vest (not period) Maybe she could quilt outer fabric and inner fabric to a wool layer for warmth. Just a suggestion. Susan Fatemi - -- susanf@california.com http://www.california.com/~susanf ------------------------------ albertcat@aol.com[22,169]CSuX:historic costume in film...sorta Subject: Re: H-COST: Re: historic costume in film...sorta From: AlbertCat@aol.com Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 22:50:53 -0400 (EDT) - -Poster: AlbertCat@aol.com In a message dated 97-06-04 18:35:05 EDT, MSBEASLEY@AOL.COM writes: << P.S. The Costume Designer was Jim Acheson (Who I do believe is English) anybody know for sure??? >> Yes he is. I worked w/ him on "Last of the Mohicans" [are y'all tired of me saying that yet?] I think he's great. Very exacting & persnickety....but a nice guy. He's done some great work & won 3 Oscars. Some of his better stuff includes: "Dangerous Liaisons" [Oscar] "The Last Emperor" [Oscar] "Restoration" [Oscar] "Brazil" "Time Bandits" "Little Buddha" "The Sheltering Sky" "Mary Shelly's Frankenstein" ------------------------------ ella lynoure rajamaki [23,170]CSuX:cutting fabric Subject: Re: H-COST: RE: Cutting fabric From: "Ella Lynoure Rajamaki" Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 06:47:00 +2 - -Poster: "Ella Lynoure Rajamaki" On 4 Jun 97 at 12:08, Robin Berry wrote: > It was brought to my attention by a textile history scholar, > that cutting on the bias was forbotten in most early cultures. > It was believed that to cut something on the bias was to let > evil into the fabric. Thus, early patterns are made from > square cut cloth. In addition, red thread was used to bar evil > from the cloths. I do not know about red thread, but I think avoiding cutting bias has more practical reason: at least IMO cutting bias tends to waster more fabric that cutting straight and making fabric was hard work in early times. - -------(c) 1997----------------* lynoure@tuug.org * Ella Lynoure Rajamaki----------*http://www.tuug.org/~lynoure* - ------------------------------------------------------------- a small chaotic multi-era creature.-------------------------- ------------------------------ don & carolyn richardson [37,171]CSuX:wool alternatives Subject: Re: H-COST: Wool alternatives From: Don & Carolyn Richardson Date: Wed, 04 Jun 1997 21:16:05 -0700 - -Poster: Don & Carolyn Richardson Brett Harrison wrote: > > -Poster: Brett Harrison > > Greetings from Sue Drain (first time poster) > > I am in a 17th century re-enactment group, focussing on the Trained > Bands of London during the English Civil War period, which strongly > encourages its members to use historically accurate materials for > costume. > > Another member would like his partner to join in - unfortunately, she > can't wear wool, it brings her out in a rash. > > Linen is the obvious substitute, which would be great for most of the > year ... temperatures here in Sydney tending to the humid subtropical a > lot of the time. However we have regular winter camping events in the > Southern Highlands, with frosts, cold winds rain and snow and often lots > of slush and mud (forget velvet & silk!) > > I'm suggesting synthetic interlinings to retain heat, and the wearing of > modern thermal underwear under chemises & petticoats (what you don't > see...). Does anyone have any more authentic costuming ideas to help the > poor lady to stay warm? I wouldn't give up on silk that easily. While browsing thru REI last year (they are a camping/outdoor sports co-op) I found silk thermal underwear. Silk can actually be quite warm providing you're not using too lightweight of a weave. I think a silk dress combined with a fur lined cloak (as suggested by others) would work wonderfully. Carolyn ------------------------------ don & carolyn richardson [23,172]CSuX:backwards Subject: Re: H-COST: Backwards From: Don & Carolyn Richardson Date: Wed, 04 Jun 1997 21:18:18 -0700 - -Poster: Don & Carolyn Richardson MSBEASLEY@aol.com wrote: > > -Poster: MSBEASLEY@aol.com > > Hello list, > > anyone having the same trouble I am. I get the rely to the thread before I > get the original thread. AOL(my carrier) says to check here as they don't > know anything about it? Same thing's happening on my machine and I'm using Worldnet with Netscape 3.0. It was working fine earlier in the week (I have the "thread messages by topic" option turned on) but in the last couple days doesn't seem to be working. I think it may have something to do with the "Re:" getting added to the messages when someone replies to the original post. Carolyn ------------------------------ maggiros@aol.com[18,173]CSuX:cutting fabric Subject: Re: H-COST: RE: Cutting fabric From: MaggiRos@aol.com Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 02:02:23 -0400 (EDT) - -Poster: MaggiRos@aol.com In a message dated 97-06-04 21:39:55 EDT, rlberry@sprynet.com (Robin Berry) writes: > It was believed that to > cut something on the bias was to let evil into the fabric. Thus, early > patterns are made from square cut cloth. In addition, red thread was used > to bar evil from the cloths. > Same old question... where, and when, please? The past is not all the same country. MaggiRos ------------------------------ lisa leong [26,174]CSuX:cutting fabric Subject: Re: H-COST: RE: Cutting fabric From: Lisa Leong Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 20:21:22 -1000 - -Poster: Lisa Leong On Wed, 4 Jun 1997, Robin Berry wrote: > -Poster: Robin Berry > > It was brought to my attention by a textile history scholar, that cutting > on the bias was forbotten in most early cultures. It was believed that to > cut something on the bias was to let evil into the fabric. Thus, early > patterns are made from square cut cloth. In addition, red thread was used > to bar evil from the cloths. Interesting that this should come up now. Last week I had a book of copies of illuminated manuscripts and one of the pictures showed the Madonna in a gown that was definitely on the bias--or was at least patterned that way. The fabric appeared to be a brocade with a pomegranate pattern and I was surprised since it was the first time I'd ever seen period art with something not cut on the straight of the grain. Will have to go to the library and check again to see if there was anything that would indicate a weave. - --lisa ------------------------------ louise sugar [34,175]CSuX:elizabethan tall-crown felt hats Subject: RE: H-COST: Elizabethan tall-crown felt hats From: Louise Sugar Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 09:25:54 -0400 - -Poster: Louise Sugar I would appreciate this information as well and thank you Louise - -----Original Message----- From: Asia Reva Poppers [SMTP:apoppers@div.harvard.edu] Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 1997 7:29 PM To: h-costume@world.std.com Subject: H-COST: Elizabethan tall-crown felt hats - -Poster: Asia Reva Poppers Hey, does anyone know of an on-line, mailorder, or nationwide source for the tall-crown, round-brim wool felt hats that are similar to the style that was popular in Elizabethan England? I know that they used to be available at the Berkeley Hat Company in Berkeley, CA, and that they were called the "Injun Joe" model, but as I'm now in Massachusetts, I am looking for a more accesible source. *Bonus Question* Anyone know of such a sourch that carries them in colors? Pls. reply by private email to apoppers@div.harvard.edu Thanks a bunch, - --Asia ------------------------------ kate m bunting [15,176]CSuX:pen-pal postings Subject: H-COST: Pen-pal postings From: KATE M BUNTING Date: Thu, 05 Jun 1997 14:25:35 +0000 - -Poster: KATE M BUNTING Bronwen's and Teddy's postings confirm my instincts about this bloke. I declined to answer personal questions and have just terminated a fruitless exchange during which he did not volunteer a single question or comment on costume topics. I wondered whether I was being unkind, but it looks as though his motives are suspect. Kate Bunting Library, University of Derby ------------------------------ janice & ken jones [22,177]CSuX:spanish yarn questions Subject: H-COST: Spanish Yarn questions From: "Janice & Ken Jones" Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 07:25:52 +0000 - -Poster: "Janice & Ken Jones" For my next project I am going to make a crocheted Automoblile Sweater, that appeared in a 1903 Modern Priscills. This sweater calls for a pound of Spanish yarn. I have not been able to find any reference to what the fiber wasif made of. I do know Fleisher's Worsted Yarns used to sell something called Spanish yarn, in 1903. Their ad lists several yarns I beliee are listed in order of ever decreasing weights. Knitting Worsted Dresden Saxsony Shetland Floss Germantown Zephyr Sapnish Ice Floss Any help itentifying this fiber would be greatly appreciated. Janice Jones kcjones@primenet.com ------------------------------ sharron fina [19,178]CSuX:backwards Subject: H-COST: Backwards From: Sharron Fina Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 11:23:26 -0400 (EDT) - -Poster: Sharron Fina I believe the reason for the backwards messages (and they've been this way for as long as I remember) is how the server handles the messages. As the messages come in they are put in a storage area. Each new file goes "on top" of the last received message. When the server decides to send out the messages, it starts with the one "on top", which happens to be the last one received. This is basic computer-ese. It can be changed, but it's probably more trouble than it's worth. It only becomes noticeable when there is a heavy volume of messages being sent. Sharron Fina sfina@retina.anatomy.upenn.edu ------------------------------ gina balestracci [26,179]CSuX:start (was hair) Subject: H-COST: re: start (was hair) From: "Gina Balestracci" Date: 5 Jun 97 06:48:42 - -Poster: "Gina Balestracci" Discussing the use of peach juice and/or sugar to set curls in hair: > Also, it >probably wouldn't have been acceptable for clothing, but that makes >me wonder about using starch as a stiffner...wouldn't that have >attracted bugs... The Portuguese nuns with whom I studied needlework as a kid used to stiffen crochetted doilies with sugar syrup. It keeps them *very* stiff, with each stitch tanding out very nicely, and I never noticed a bug problem. Perhaps if an item were stored (long-term in an attic, say) with vegetable or sugar starch, bugs would be a problem. When we got the doilies back to America, my mother just used her spray starch on them. They weren't nearly as stiff that way, and lacked the definition that they had with the heavy starch, but in my house, if you stood still long enough, mom got you with the spray starch (we had starched underwear, sheets, you name it). It was the early 1960s--the age of convenience--the FUTURE!! ;-) Gina balestracci@saturn.montclair.edu ------------------------------ janice & ken jones [16,180]CSuX:yarn information Subject: H-COST: Yarn information From: "Janice & Ken Jones" Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 10:40:16 +0000 - -Poster: "Janice & Ken Jones" Sorry for all the spelling errors in my Spanish yarn post, I should have my morning coffee before ever writing. The pattern for the automobile sweater states that 72 stitches = 12 inches. The pattern also uses the Walker Bell Guage and size 11 and 12 ivory hooks. I think that would make this a fingering weight yarn and I would need a D crochet hook. What fiber content did Spanish yarn have? Janice Jones kcjones@primenet.com ------------------------------ albertcat@aol.com[18,181]CSuX:cutting fabric Subject: Re: H-COST: RE: Cutting fabric From: AlbertCat@aol.com Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 16:00:21 -0400 (EDT) - -Poster: AlbertCat@aol.com In a message dated 97-06-05 08:48:27 EDT, lisaleon@hawaii.edu (Lisa Leong) writes: << Madonna in a gown that was definitely on the bias--or was at least patterned that way. The fabric appeared to be a brocade with a pomegranate pattern >> The pomegranate has religious significance I believe....probably something left over from that pagan myth of Persephone(sp?). [Don'tcha love how they incorporate things]. Anyway it was probably the artist's call here & has nothing to do w/ real fabric & cut. But I'm no expert. It sounds beautiful & were I doing a show in the period I'd use it anyway [if it were fit] real or not. ------------------------------ irene lenoir [17,182]CSuX:the pen-pal guy Subject: H-COST: Re: The Pen-Pal Guy From: Irene leNoir Date: Thu, 5 Jun 97 17:24:41 -0500 - -Poster: Irene leNoir >He said that he had seen a posting of mine on the alt.gothic >newsgroup... Well, just on a hunch I checked out the alt.gothic newsgroup. As I suspected, it appears to be a somewhat kinky type group. Not as = bad as some, but bad enough to attract undesirables. ________________________________ Jessica I. Clark ------------------------------ ulrika a. o brien [52,183]CSuX:the pen-pal guy Subject: H-COST: Re: The Pen-Pal Guy From: "Ulrika A. O'BRIEN" Date: 6/5/97 5:24 PM - -Poster: "Ulrika A. O'BRIEN" Oh, for Pete's sake. First it's "degenerates" who read the alt.sex hierarchy, and now it's "kinky types" and "undesirables" reading alt.gothic. Y'all might want to think about the wisdom of making snap judgments about other people's non-mainstream hobby o= r = cultural interests before getting your period-accurate, hand-stitche= d pantalets in a twist. Glass houses and all that, you know? Somebod= y = might get the wrong idea that no one but repressed Republican granni= es = takes an interest in historical costume. = ______________________________ Reply Separator __________________________= _______ - -Poster: Irene leNoir = >He said that he had seen a posting of mine on the alt.gothic = >newsgroup... = Well, just on a hunch I checked out the alt.gothic newsgroup. = As I suspected, it appears to be a somewhat kinky type group. Not as bad= as = some, but bad enough to attract undesirables. = ________________________________ Jessica I. Clark = = ------------------------------ stacey_weinberger@cabelsmtp.wadsworth.com[49,184]CSuX:the pen-pal guy Subject: H-COST: Re: The Pen-Pal Guy From: Stacey_Weinberger@cabelsmtp.wadsworth.com Date: 6/5/97 5:24 PM - -Poster: Stacey_Weinberger@cabelsmtp.wadsworth.com Oooh! Can I sit back and watch the flame war start. Popcorn please! Stacey Who is being terribly facetious about the reply below and would rather make light of it and get back to costuming. Chacon a sonne gout! UAOBRIEN@uci.edu ("Ulrika A. O'BRIEN") 06/06/97 03:06 AM - -Poster: "Ulrika A. O'BRIEN" Oh, for Pete's sake. First it's "degenerates" who read the alt.sex hierarchy, and now it's "kinky types" and "undesirables" reading alt.gothic. Y'all might want to think about the wisdom of making snap judgments about other people's non-mainstream hobby or cultural interests before getting your period-accurate, hand-stitched pantalets in a twist. Glass houses and all that, you know? Somebody might get the wrong idea that no one but repressed Republican grannies takes an interest in historical costume. - -Poster: Irene leNoir >He said that he had seen a posting of mine on the alt.gothic >newsgroup... Well, just on a hunch I checked out the alt.gothic newsgroup. As I suspected, it appears to be a somewhat kinky type group. Not as bad as some, but bad enough to attract undesirables. ________________________________ Jessica I. Clark ------------------------------ susan fatemi [31,185]CSuX:kinky Subject: H-COST: kinky From: Susan Fatemi Date: Thu, 05 Jun 1997 15:35:15 -0700 - -Poster: Susan Fatemi for Pete's sake indeed! My *son* reads alt.gothic (and plays "vampire") and he almost *never* molests children. (for the humour-impaired, this is a JOKE) We live in a wonderful age, but people are so *paranoid*. I know, I know, "trust no one." But LIGHTEN UP folks. Personally, I think those stay-laced people are a little kinky, but that's their business. They aren't hurting me any. As long as they don't do it in the street and frighten the horses ... Susan Fatemi who is reasonably cranky herself, today. Ulrika A. O'BRIEN wrote: > > Oh, for Pete's sake. First it's "degenerates" who read the > alt.sex hierarchy, and now it's "kinky types" and "undesirables" > reading alt.gothic. Y'all might want to think about the wisdom > of making snap judgments about other people's non-mainstream hobby or > cultural interests before getting your period-accurate, hand-stitched > pantalets in a twist. Glass houses and all that, you know? Somebody > might get the wrong idea that no one but repressed Republican grannies > takes an interest in historical costume. > > __ ------------------------------ william b. birner [32,186]CSuX:the pen-pal guy Subject: Re: H-COST: Re: The Pen-Pal Guy From: "William B. Birner" Date: Thu, 05 Jun 1997 19:09:44 -0500 - -Poster: "William B. Birner" At 03:06 AM 6/6/97 -0700, Ulrika A. O'BRIEN wrote: >-Poster: "Ulrika A. O'BRIEN" > > Oh, for Pete's sake. First it's "degenerates" who read the > alt.sex hierarchy, and now it's "kinky types" and "undesirables" > reading alt.gothic. Y'all might want to think about the wisdom > of making snap judgments about other people's non-mainstream hobby or > cultural interests before getting your period-accurate, hand-stitched > pantalets in a twist. Glass houses and all that, you know? Somebody > might get the wrong idea that no one but repressed Republican grannies > takes an interest in historical costume. Oh my Gosh. Don't anyone say anything. I am a lawyer and might even, one day, play one on tv. Be careful. The PC Police are here. Do not, under any condition, believe that you can utter an opinion. Someone might disagree and that is anathema. Any early pre-colonialists here? Maybe we can costume a witch hunt and burning. But maybe not. As Fry said, "The Lady's Not for Burning." Ciao, Bill - ------------- wbbirner@ix.netcom.com (William B. Birner) ------------------------------ j&b [21,187]CSuX:the pen-pal guy Subject: Re: H-COST: Re: The Pen-Pal Guy From: J&B Date: Thu, 05 Jun 1997 21:20:18 +0000 - -Poster: J&B brava Ulrika! Ulrika A. O'BRIEN wrote: > Oh, for Pete's sake. First it's "degenerates" who read the > alt.sex hierarchy, and now it's "kinky types" and "undesirables" > reading alt.gothic. Y'all might want to think about the wisdom > of making snap judgments about other people's non-mainstream hobby or > cultural interests before getting your period-accurate, hand-stitched > pantalets in a twist. Glass houses and all that, you know? Somebody > might get the wrong idea that no one but repressed Republican grannies > takes an interest in historical costume. ------------------------------ End of h-costume-digest V1 #4 ***************************** automatic digest processor [19,188]CSuX:h-costume digest - 4 jun 1997 to 5 jun 1997 Subject: H-COSTUME Digest - 4 Jun 1997 to 5 Jun 1997 From: Automatic digest processor Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 00:01:13 -0400 There are 22 messages totalling 608 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. H-COST: Burning edges of fabric: Wait! (2) 2. textile research 3. Victorian Hairdressings (3) 4. Pen-pal postings (3) 5. Cutting fabric 6. pen-pal? 7. H-COST stain removal (2) 8. Stain on brocade 9. H-COST: Backwards 10. Mis-labeled linen (4) 11. The Pen-Pal Guy (2) 12. Re[2]: Victorian Hairdressings ---------------------------------------------------------------------- lisa leong [31,189]CSuX:burning edges of fabric: wait! Subject: Re: H-COST: Burning edges of fabric: Wait! From: Lisa Leong Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 19:29:21 -1000 > > On Tue, 3 Jun 1997, Gail DeCamp wrote: > > Well, wait. I recall reading that the Victorians singed the ends of hair > > to prevent split ends. If they could do this to human hair, that was > > Er, forgive my ignorance, but do we know if this *worked*? Certainly a > hair will frizzle up if you burn it, but does it stop split ends? Lord > knows various cultures thought X, Y, or Z was efficatious, when it wasn't > (Washed any warts in morning dew recently to make them go away?) I don't know about _preventing_ split ends, but singeing hair to remove split ends does. I had mine done several years ago and the results were fantastic--no dry, frizzy, bleached ends left. The professional who did it tightly twisted small sections of hair and quickly ran a candle down the length. I suppose the broken, flyaway ends would be sticking out of the twist and get singed off. After this she snipped off the burnt bits. At least, I think that's what she did--it was done without a mirror for me to watch the process, perhaps to keep me from having a panic attack when seeing flames next to my head. Anyway, since she cut the singed bits off, the result was very smooth. I'm not sure how tangly or matted the ends would be if she hadn't. Somehow though, I vaguely remember her saying something about the ends being in "little balls." Might those "little balls" or crinkly ends intertwine around each other enough to keep a woolen fabric from ravelling? --lisa ------------------------------ janice & ken jones [22,190]CSuX:textile research Subject: Re: textile research From: Janice & Ken Jones Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 01:17:52 +0000 Heather wrote: > Am wondering if any of you can recommend some good books showing textiles > of the 19th century. Specifically I want something with good, clear > photo's and descriptions so that I can easily identify printed and woven > patterns as well as colors. A book I can highly recommend for textiles is Textile Designs, by Susan Meller snd Joost Elffers. This book does not just cover the 19th century, it covers 200 years of European and American patterns for printed fabrics organized by motif, style, color, layout, and period. This book has 1,823 illustrations in color. Granted this book does not include woven fabrics such as silk brocades, damasks or velvets but is is a wonderful source for informations about fabrics of everyday life, printed calico, cottons, flowered cretonnes and chintzes, polka-dot silks and foulards. Harry N. Abrams, Inc Publishers, ISBN 0-8109-3853-7 Janice Jones kcjones@primenet.com ------------------------------ bonnie glickman [33,191]CSuX:victorian hairdressings Subject: Re: Victorian Hairdressings From: Bonnie Glickman Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 03:17:30 -0700 Glenna Jo & Bill Christen wrote: > > Cynthia Virtue wrote: > > > what did they use for 'hair spray" equivalent? That might work on > fabric to keep all the fibers together, too. > > I doubt if what they commonly used would work. Typical recipes for hair > dressings had some form of oil or lard as a main ingredient. The rest > was generally just scent. The use of hair oil combined with fireplace > or stove heating were probably two very practical reasons for wearing > night caps back then. They helped to keep the excess oil off the > pillows and bed linens as well as keeping their heads warm..... What was "macassar" made of, as in crocheted "Antimacassars" to keep upholstery clean... I understood it was a soft waxy material. As far as other "Hair-goo", one of the historic houses here in Rochester has smooth wooden spools on handles that they told us were used with peach juice or sugar water to set curls. You would take a small section of hair, comb the sugar water through it, wind it on the spool and then use you fan to dry it on the spool (in lieu of a blow dryer). When your hair was dry enough, you'd slip it off the spool and do another section. I think juice would have attrached insects. Also, it probably wouldn't have been acceptable for clothing, but that makes me wonder about using starch as a stiffner...wouldn't that have attracted bugs... but it it was that bad, people wouldn't have kept using it... OOOHHHHH somthing else to research! Anyone know if this has already been done? How 'bout "bluing"...??? Bonnie Glickman in Rochester NY ------------------------------ teddy [28,192]CSuX:pen-pal postings Subject: Pen-pal postings From: TEDDY Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 11:44:28 +0000 > From: Susan Stallman > Subject: Re: questions? > What is strange to me is that when I responded to his original query, he > asked if I was married and when I replied that I was...I never heard a word > from him again. It would seem that there is some criteria to being his > pen-pal. What does being married have to do with talking about costuming?? > > Bronwen Hi Bronwen, I'm definately suspicious now. This was one of the questions he asked me too, and I haven't heard from him since either! Teddy teddy1@mdx.ac.uk ====================== Bibliographical Services Dept. * If a costume's worth * Middlesex University * making, it's worth * Bounds Green Road * making well enough * London, N11 2NQ * for every-day wear. * England ====================== Tel No.(0181) 362 6405 ------------------------------ john labarthe [32,193]CSuX:cutting fabric Subject: Re: Cutting fabric From: John LaBarthe Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 23:39:06 +0930 Okay, a bit more explanation. The reason I asked about the term 'cutting on the cross' is this. I have the pattern for a 10th century gown from Holkboer (sp?) "Patterns for Theatrical Costume" (I think this is its name-I have most of it photocopied, so no title is handy-very vague of me!). ANYWAY. I first made the dress up using the normal cutting method, that is, laying the fabric down length ways, in half. When made up, the fall of the fabric was in a straight chunk, not in falls of loose fabric (how am I going here? :/). The person who loaned me the book lent me her draft up of the pattern as her mother is a proffesional costumer, and I thought I might have made a mistake in the pattern drafting, but it was exactly the same. The friend told me then that the pattern had to be cut on the cross, or else it wouldn't fall in the nice draped effect like normal long skirts, etc. Hence my query about the term 'cut on the cross'. I realise this is probably against all historical accuracy, which is an unfortuate sacrifice to try and get the thing to hang properly!!! So, I am stumped, quite literaly. So, does this make more sense? I'm not sure if the book is the English version, but Australian terminology is much the same as the UK, I believe, although we do use centimetres and meters as oposed to feet and inches here. Okay, after that rather long winded explanation, which has probably served to confuse, more than anything else, I hope this is of help and that all you wonderful people can help me! Lydie ------------------------------ john labarthe [37,194]CSuX:pen-pal postings Subject: Re: Pen-pal postings From: John LaBarthe Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 23:42:41 +0930 At 11:44 6/5/97 +0000, you wrote: >> From: Susan Stallman >> Subject: Re: questions? > >> What is strange to me is that when I responded to his original query, he >> asked if I was married and when I replied that I was...I never heard a word >> from him again. It would seem that there is some criteria to being his >> pen-pal. What does being married have to do with talking about costuming?? >> >> Bronwen > >Hi Bronwen, > >I'm definately suspicious now. This was one of the questions he >asked me too, and I haven't heard from him since either! > > >Teddy >teddy1@mdx.ac.uk > ====================== >Bibliographical Services Dept. * If a costume's worth * >Middlesex University * making, it's worth * >Bounds Green Road * making well enough * >London, N11 2NQ * for every-day wear. * >England ====================== >Tel No.(0181) 362 6405 > Snap! Although, not being married but involved in a strong relationship, and as I did mention that, I'd not heard from him either. Odd really, especially for someone purporting to be interested in penpalship. Lydie. ------------------------------ margo anderson [27,195]CSuX:pen-pal? Subject: pen-pal? From: Margo Anderson Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 08:49:37 -0700 What is strange to me is that when I responded to his original query, he > asked if I was married and when I replied that I was...I never heard a word > from him again. It would seem that there is some criteria to being his >pen-pal. What does being married have to do with talking about costuming?? > > Bronwen > >Hi Bronwen, > >I'm definately suspicious now. This was one of the questions he >asked me too, and I haven't heard from him since either! > Gee, I was feeling left out because he hadn't emailed me....:) but now I think the fact that I've made it clear I have children might have something to do with it. Obviously, this guy thinks "pen pal" has romantic connotations, and he'd like to have a romance with someone who shares his costuming interests. Well, wouldn't we all? It would be nice if he had better social graces, but let's not get too worked up about it. Does anyone else think that James may be very young? Margo ------------------------------ margo anderson [8,196]CSuX:h-cost stain removal Subject: H-COST stain removal From: Margo Anderson Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 08:53:17 -0700 I know this isn't costume related, but while we're on the subject, can anyone tell me how to get mustard stains off synthetic carpet? We're moving, and I'd like to get some of my deposit back. Margo ------------------------------ r.l. shep [19,197]CSuX:burning edges of fabric: wait! Subject: Re: H-COST: Burning edges of fabric: Wait! From: "R.L. Shep" Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 08:00:21 -0800 Lisa Leong wrote: > > > > > On Tue, 3 Jun 1997, Gail DeCamp wrote: > > > Well, wait. I recall reading that the Victorians singed the ends of hair > > > to prevent split ends. If they could do this to human hair, that was > > When I went to school in London I went to an English barber. After he was finished giving me a hair cut he would take a taper and singethe ends of my hair! He used a comb so that only the parts he wants to burn off were exposed. The first time he did it I was afraid that Iwould go up in flames. It never hapened. There was no residue left at all. Who knows, English barbers maystill be doing that. ~!~ R.L. Shep ------------------------------ carole newson-smith [25,198]CSuX:stain on brocade Subject: Stain on brocade From: Carole Newson-Smith Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 10:19:17 U Reply to: Stain on brocade Annikki Weston writes: >A while back, I recall seeing a lot of stuff on the treatment of stains. >I don't remember this one: sweet and sour sauce on off-white brocade. >Fiber content? Unknown. Most likely a little synthetic and a little >cotton. Any suggestions? Worse case scenario, I redo one tab with the >stain, and place more trim on the doublet inventively to cover the >dribble on the front. I'd rather not, though. When I was in a chinese restaurant a few months ago, the sweet and sour dish pork came to the table and it wasn't red. I was confused, and asked the waiter if I got what I'd ordered. He said yes, but here we don't put ketchup in the sweet and sour sauce, so that is why it doesn't look right to you. (Ketchup, of course, contains tomato.) I thought this information might be useful in removing the stain. Good luck, Carole Newson-Smith ------------------------------ kay lancaster [9,199]CSuX:backwards Subject: Re: H-COST: Backwards From: Kay Lancaster Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 02:17:08 -0700 Check the "options" on your mail reader... there may well be a way of sorting the messages by sender, by date and time, or some combination. PINE, for instance, allows sort by sender, and sort by date and time either forwards or backwards. Kay Lancaster kay@fern.com ------------------------------ carole newson-smith [43,200]CSuX:mis-labeled linen Subject: Mis-labeled linen From: Carole Newson-Smith Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 11:59:53 U Reply to: Mis-labeled linen I too have gotten home with mis-labeled fabric, and have decided that I don't want to repeat that mistake again. Now I carry a small pair of scissors in my purse, and when suspicious, snip a small sliver of fabric and go out to my car. There I pull out my handy fabric burning kit. It consists of a square of aluminum foil from my kitchen, and a disposable cigarette lighter. Note: This test must be done in a non-windy location. I find it preferable to do this at home, but if home is too far away, I fold one corner of the foil around the sliver of fabric, put a weight of some sort on the opposite corner of the foil, and curve the main part of the foil so that I have roughly formed the letter "C". The fabric now is suspended above the weight, and any ash will fall onto the foil. I hold flame to the fabric, and watch to see what it does. If it is wool or other animal hair, it will crinkle up and smell - amazingly enough - like burning hair. The cool ash is soft to the touch and crumbles to dust easily. If it is cotton or linen (plant fibers), it will hold its shape pretty well while burning, but eventually falls in on itself. It smells a little like burning wood or paper. Again, the cool ash is soft and crumbles. If it is polyester or nylon, it will bead up while burning, and the cool ash feels like hard little lumps. The burning smell is really unpleasant, sort of an oily, chemical smell. I don't remember what silk does when burning, sorry. If you have a blend or the fabric has been treated so it won't wrinkle, you will get some combination of effects. Carole Newson-Smith ------------------------------ broneske [38,201]CSuX:the pen-pal guy Subject: The Pen-Pal Guy From: Broneske Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 12:27:18 -0700 Hi all, Sorry to stray off topic; however, I feel compelled to come forward over = this "Pen-Pal guy" thing, as I feel somewhat responsible for him showing = up on the list. About a month ago, out of the blue, he sent me a "private" (not on a = list or newsgroup) e-mail asking me to be his "pen-pal". I thought it = quite a strange request from a complete stranger, and even odder that it = was sent to my personal e-mail address. I wrote back and asked him = where he had gotten my name and e-mail address and also why he had = picked "me" out of the ether of Virtual Land. He said that he had seen = a posting of mine on the alt.gothic newsgroup and that he felt we had = some common interests. I told him that #1, I had not posted to the = alt.gothic newsgroup, #2 that I was too busy for a personal pen-pal = relationship, and #3 that if he had an interest in costume and wished to = discuss it with someone, that he should join the h-costume mailing list. = Well, lo and behold, he shows up here and starts "bothering" all of you = guys. I agree that it is all very strange and just a little bit creepy! = I also agree that we should just ignore him, and eventually he will go = away and bother someone else. I just felt I had to let you all know the = status of this guy and how he got here. I am now sorry that I every = suggested that he join the list! I guess I should have gone with my = first instinct......that something was wrong here and to ignore it. If you are reading this James, I suggest you check the newsgroups. I am = sure there is a group for people who want to be pen-pals, and if you are = looking for something more......I suggest you bother the degenerates on = the alt.sex newsgroups. 'nough said!!! Joan Broneske ------------------------------ glenn and shanda grieb [14,202]CSuX:victorian hairdressings Subject: Re: Victorian Hairdressings From: Glenn and Shanda Grieb Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 14:38:57 -0500 Glenna Jo & Bill Christen wrote: >I've > thought about taking to wearing a bed cap at times just to keep my long > hair under control and not under my husband's shoulder when I want to > roll over. :-) LOL I sure know what you mean about getting your hair caught under your husband! I've just taken to braiding mine and fastening it with a soft terry elastic band to keep the breakage down, since I also hate all my hair getting in my own face when I roll over, as well. ------------------------------ glenn and shanda grieb [11,203]CSuX:h-cost stain removal Subject: Re: H-COST stain removal From: Glenn and Shanda Grieb Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 14:50:06 -0500 I haven't got the name of the product (it's at work right now) but I'll try to remember to look it up. Someone came into work and sold me an "enzyme" (natural non-petrochemical) cleaner. What sold me was that she got old tint stains (I'm a hairdresser) out of the carpet right in front of my eyes. And, get this, she also used it to remove adhesives gum from plastic, and it even cleaned and kept the windows and mirrors smudge and fog free for a good week ot two! I was sold. I may just try it on some of my tuff costume stains. ------------------------------ paul onufrak [21,204]CSuX:mis-labeled linen Subject: Re: Mis-labeled linen From: Paul Onufrak Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 15:33:37 -0500 Dear Carole, I admire your ingenuity, but PLEASE ask for a sample. Most fabric stores will cut a small swatch for free. Some will even help you burn it in the store, although this answer varies with each store, day (if its busy, its unlikely), and person. If a clerk cuts the swatch, its a gift, if you do its a "self-gift." Some stores even sell by the inch if you need more than a snip. Please, on behalf of clerks in fabric stores everywhere, ask, don't cut it yourself. Thank you. DJ on her husbands account. PS. If you explain you want it for a burn test you can figure out who knows fabric and who doesn't. If you burn it in a store with the clerk there, you can educate someone. DJ on her husband's account ------------------------------ kelly a. rinne [9,205]CSuX:mis-labeled linen Subject: Re: Mis-labeled linen From: "Kelly A. Rinne" Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 16:01:17 -0500 Silk, when burned, has the same effect as wool. I have a copy of the burn test standards from ASTM at home, I will bring them in and pub them for all. These give you the color of the ash as well as the consistency of it and the type of residue. Kel ------------------------------ carole newson-smith [17,206]CSuX:mis-labeled linen Subject: Mis-labeled linen From: Carole Newson-Smith Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 14:20:19 U My apologies to all who may have read my earlier post. Upon re-reading my own words, I recognize that it may have appeared that I sneak into fabric stores and steal little pieces of fabric. I don't. It's much easier to ask, and the sales people are always very cooperative about cutting a small piece off. But in California there are so many laws about being environmentally friendly, etc., that I have hesitated to ask if I could set fire to even a very small piece of merchandise inside a store. Carole Newson-Smith ------------------------------ william b. birner [27,207]CSuX:victorian hairdressings Subject: Re: Victorian Hairdressings From: "William B. Birner" Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 19:14:45 -0500 At 02:38 PM 6/5/97 -0500, Glenn and Shanda Grieb wrote: >Glenna Jo & Bill Christen wrote: >>I've >> thought about taking to wearing a bed cap at times just to keep my long >> hair under control and not under my husband's shoulder when I want to >> roll over. :-) > > >LOL I sure know what you mean about getting your hair caught under your >husband! I've just taken to braiding mine and fastening it with a soft >terry elastic band to keep the breakage down, since I also hate all my >hair getting in my own face when I roll over, as well. > Uh oh, Bed Caps. She was right, there ARE Republican Nannies here. Quick everyone check under the beds. Get out the bells, books and candles. This is gonna be fun. Ciao, Bill ------------- wbbirner@ix.netcom.com (William B. Birner) ------------------------------ ulrika a. o brien [22,208]CSuX:victorian hairdressings Subject: Re: Victorian Hairdressings From: "Ulrika A. O'BRIEN" Date: 6/5/97 7:14 PM "Grannies" that is. Repressed Republican _grannies_. Geez, if you're going to run with it, at least get the quote right. (Must I add a smiley?) Uh oh, Bed Caps. She was right, there ARE Republican Nannies here. Quick everyone check under the beds. Get out the bells, books and candles. This is gonna be fun. Ciao, Bill ------------- wbbirner@ix.netcom.com (William B. Birner) ------------------------------ roxann barber [23,209]CSuX:pen-pal postings Subject: Re: Pen-pal postings From: Roxann Barber Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 19:46:23 -0700 TEDDY wrote: > > > From: Susan Stallman > > Subject: Re: questions? > > > What is strange to me is that when I responded to his original query, he > > asked if I was married and when I replied that I was...I never heard a word > > from him again. > > Bronwen > > Hi Bronwen, > > I'm definately suspicious now. This was one of the questions he > asked me too, and I haven't heard from him since either! > > Teddy > teddy1@mdx.ac.uk > ====================== Sounds like someone got misplaced from a chat room! ------------------------------ roxann barber [20,210]CSuX:the pen-pal guy Subject: Re: The Pen-Pal Guy From: Roxann Barber Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 20:06:14 -0700 Broneske wrote: > > Sorry to stray off topic; however, I feel compelled to come forward over this "Pen-Pal guy" thing, as I feel somewhat responsible for him showing up on the list. I am now sorry that I every suggested that he join the list! > > 'nough said!!! > > Joan Broneske This on-line world is new and we are all learning. Roxy Barber ------------------------------ End of H-COSTUME Digest - 4 Jun 1997 to 5 Jun 1997 ************************************************** automatic digest processor [19,211]CSuX:h-costume digest - 5 jun 1997 to 6 jun 1997 Subject: H-COSTUME Digest - 5 Jun 1997 to 6 Jun 1997 From: Automatic digest processor Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 00:00:20 -0400 There are 18 messages totalling 437 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. New Movie in my area 2. Victorian Hairdressings (5) 3. Pen-pal postings 4. Mis-labeled linen 5. Stain on brocade (2) 6. Sleepwear (2) 7. Hair 8. starch 9. H-COST: Re: The Pen-Pal Guy 10. None 11. nails/ells 12. H-Cost re: 1840's gown ---------------------------------------------------------------------- penny e. ladnier [33,212]CSuX:new movie in my area Subject: New Movie in my area From: "Penny E. Ladnier" Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 00:05:15 -0400 For the reenactors: An announcement in today's paper (Richmond, VA): The made for television movie, "The Day Lincoln was Shot" will begin shotting in Richmond/Petersburg, Virginia area, June 21 and wrap up late July. The movie is being filmed for Ted Turner. 1,200 extras are needed. They will be using only a few children. Modern haircuts will not be used. Dancers who can waltz are especially needed, as are Civil War reenactors with their own wardrobes. One brass band and two or three orchestras, all with about 10 to 12 members. An extras casting call will be held from 3 to 7 pm Saturday and from 2 to 5:30 pm Sunday at Regency Square Mall (Richmond). Applicants should bring a recent snapshot or photo of themselves. Close ups are best. A phone number to reach extras casting director Maxann Crotts will be listed Monday on the Virginia Production Services Ass. hotline (804-287-5070). Please do not email me back, about information. I posted all I know in this post. Later...Penny Penny E. Dunlap Ladnier, s0peladn@erols.com Historic Costume Research http://www.geocities.com/BourbonStreet/2157 member: Costume Society of America American Fashion Council Virginia Commonwealth University Alumni (finally!) ------------------------------ maggie pierce [19,213]CSuX:victorian hairdressings Subject: Re: Victorian Hairdressings From: Maggie Pierce Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 02:36:23 -0400 In a message dated 97-06-05 14:40:46 EDT, bonnieg@FRONTIERNET.NET (Bonnie Glickman) writes: > When > your hair was dry enough, you'd slip it off the spool and do another > section. I think juice would have attrached insects. Also, it > probably wouldn't have been acceptable for clothing, but that makes > me wonder about using starch as a stiffner...wouldn't that have > attracted bugs... A friend of mine, my own age (late 40s) remembers his mother using sugar water to "starch" his sister's hair ribbons, in his extreme youth, mind you. That's early to mid '50s. He also remembers them attracting bugs in the cupboard. Not every folk rememedy was a good one, I guess. :) MaggiRos ------------------------------ maggie pierce [16,214]CSuX:pen-pal postings Subject: Re: Pen-pal postings From: Maggie Pierce Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 02:46:19 -0400 In a message dated 97-06-05 18:33:47 EDT, John.LaBarthe@ADELAIDE.ON.NET (John LaBarthe) writes: > > Snap! Although, not being married but involved in a strong relationship, and > as I did mention that, I'd not heard from him either. Odd really, especially > for someone purporting to be interested in penpalship. > Ah-ha! Sudddenly it all becomes clear. MaggiRos ------------------------------ maggie pierce [13,215]CSuX:mis-labeled linen Subject: Re: Mis-labeled linen From: Maggie Pierce Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 03:02:50 -0400 In a message dated 97-06-06 01:22:29 EDT, carole_newson-smith@NET.COM (Carole Newson-Smith) writes: > > My apologies to all who may have read my earlier post. > Upon re-reading my own words, I recognize that it > may have appeared that I sneak into fabric stores and > steal little pieces of fabric. Uhm you say tha tlike it's a bad thing... ------------------------------ maggie pierce [24,216]CSuX:stain on brocade Subject: Re: Stain on brocade From: Maggie Pierce Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 03:08:35 -0400 In a message dated 97-06-06 02:23:45 EDT, carole_newson-smith@NET.COM (Carole Newson-Smith) writes: > > When I was in a chinese restaurant a few months ago, the sweet > and sour dish pork came to the table and it wasn't red. I was confused, > and asked the waiter if I got what I'd ordered. He said yes, but > here we don't put ketchup in the sweet and sour sauce, so that is > why it doesn't look right to you. (Ketchup, of course, contains > tomato.) > Ketchup isn't responsible for the characteristic color of many Cantonese restaurant sweet/sour dishes. And if you've ever made one at home, you also know it isn't a color that occurs in nature. That red is seriously artificial. I couldn't tell you why or when it became characteristic, but it is certainly not "ketchup". Your waiter was doubtless thinking on his feet. Probably a re-enactor in his spare time (20 years of improv gotta be good for something!) MaggiRos ------------------------------ maggie pierce [9,217]CSuX:victorian hairdressings Subject: Re: Victorian Hairdressings From: Maggie Pierce Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 03:11:03 -0400 I am here to tell you the best reason for a bed cap is to retain heat. I've slept out in the chill of an Agoura spring on an oak tree hillside, open to the sea mists at Southern Faire (CA) , and other random camping events, with and without my biggen cap on. Believe me, "with" is warmer. MaggiRos ------------------------------ william b. birner [26,218]CSuX:victorian hairdressings Subject: Re: Victorian Hairdressings From: "William B. Birner" Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 04:20:33 -0500 At 03:11 AM 6/6/97 -0400, MaggiRos@aol.com wrote: >I am here to tell you the best reason for a bed cap is to retain heat. I've >slept out in the chill of an Agoura spring on an oak tree hillside, open to >the sea mists at Southern Faire (CA) , and other random camping events, with >and without my biggen cap on. Believe me, "with" is warmer. > >MaggiRos Well, I am aware of that but in my situation I use modern ones primarily to keep my natural "cap" from getting sunburned. Did you know that a warm cap is the best way (besdies adequate footwear) to help keep your FEET warm. The brain protects itself and sends more blood/heat to the cold head when necessary, robbing the feet of some of the warmth. Wear the cap and the feet get warmer. Not being a nightcap fancier, I don't know if it helps when one ages into less circulation and mid-night cold feet. Hmm. I can't recall too many discussions here of period sleepwear. Ciao, Bill ------------- wbbirner@ix.netcom.com (William B. Birner) ------------------------------ list kay n. webb [12,219]CSuX:sleepwear Subject: Sleepwear From: "list Kay N. Webb" Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 09:53:00 -0400 Nightcaps for warm heads, knitted slippers for the feet, long dressing gowns, let's not forget they also oiled/lard? on their hands and put them in gloves for sleeping. How attractive. Was this also the ear when they put boards between people sleeping in the same bed? I have vaguely heard about this "bundling" or ? was it called. ------------------------------ list kay n. webb [7,220]CSuX:hair Subject: Hair From: "list Kay N. Webb" Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 09:57:00 -0400 In the 60's, several of my mother's friends, used beer as a setting solution for pin curls. They dipped their combs in it and wet the hair one curl at a time. After the hair dried, it did not smell of beer, the hair was soft, and the curl stayed. ------------------------------ aramanth dawe [36,221]CSuX:victorian hairdressings Subject: Re: Victorian Hairdressings From: Aramanth Dawe Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 10:19:28 -0400 At 02:38 PM 5/06/97 -0500, Glenn and Shanda Grieb wrote: >Glenna Jo & Bill Christen wrote: >>I've >> thought about taking to wearing a bed cap at times just to keep my long >> hair under control and not under my husband's shoulder when I want to >> roll over. :-) > > >LOL I sure know what you mean about getting your hair caught under your >husband! I've just taken to braiding mine and fastening it with a soft >terry elastic band to keep the breakage down, since I also hate all my >hair getting in my own face when I roll over, as well. > My braid currently reaches to below hip-length. I have braided it to sleep for years. Usually I just use a covered band but sometimes I will use a length of ribbon. I will braid down to about 2 inches above where I plan to end the braid, then add in a longish length of ribbon, with each of the ends of the ribbon being incorporated into a different bunch of hair. I continue braiding the last bit, with the ribbons now firmly braided into the lot, then bind the bottom of the braid with some of the excess ribbon (turning one end to the left, the other to the right) before tying it into a bow. This also works really well for children - it avoids having the ribbon get lost when it (inevitably) slides off their slippery hair over the course of the day. Aramanth >From the portals of House Le Mowbus, Where someone was perceptive enough to name our daughters for Goddesses of War, and silly enough to be surprised when they lived up to it! ------------------------------ jeannie farthing gambill [12,222]CSuX:starch Subject: starch From: Jeannie Farthing Gambill Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 10:27:44 EDT Both of my grandmothers still use sugar starch on tatted and crocheted items. I have had a few of these pieces for years and never noticed bugs. I have had to send them back to them for restarching ( I know...I should do it myself!) if we have a particularly humid summer. They restrach all of their items every year or so. -- ******************** Jeannie F. Gambill Clinch Valley College Theatre ------------------------------ doris j. nash [18,223]CSuX:the pen-pal guy Subject: Re: H-COST: Re: The Pen-Pal Guy From: "Doris J. Nash" Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 10:15:21 -0500 At 08:29 PM 6/5/97 -0500, you wrote: >Shanda > >Who does not wish to pass judgement on anyone, who knows her opinions >are just that; one opinion/one person, and who is interested peaceful >coexistance and the right to ignore those who interfere with that. Gee, only one opinion per person? On any given day, I might have several, which often change the next day, after I've slept on it/them. Doris ================= Doris Nash Costume Shop Supervisor, Iowa State University "...with ruffs and cuffs, and farthingales and things." --Shakespeare, The Taming of the Shrew ------------------------------ karren schaeffer [21,224]CSuX:victorian hairdressings Subject: Re: Victorian Hairdressings From: Karren Schaeffer Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 08:39:47 -0700 One Last Hair Tip A friend who has long hair and two long haired little girls developed this quick night time solution. Faster than braiding three heads of hair every night that is. She could do 3 heads in a flash. Works with wet or dry hair. Take a length of cotton ribbon or folded bias tape( shiny ribbon will slide off). Center the tape at the top of the head (like a headband) and pull the sides down and around to the center nape. Mark this location on each side and sew on a snap (not velcro please). To use simply fasten the headband around and take the loose ends and cross them over the hair, first on top, then underneath, (like ribbons on a maypole) this forms a compact tail and does not leave ridges in the hair like braiding. Tie off the ends with a double bow. Tie length depends on how long the finished tail should be. Roughly, the distance around the head (crown to nape) plus twice the length of the hair plus 10 to 12 inches. ------------------------------ kaite lewis [21,225]CSuX:sleepwear Subject: Re: Sleepwear From: Kaite Lewis Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 08:43:36 -0700 On Fri, 6 Jun 1997, list Kay N. Webb wrote: > > How attractive. Was this also the ear when they put boards between > people sleeping in the same bed? I have vaguely heard about this > "bundling" or ? was it called. Bundling was something that the Puritans did. The courting couple would be put into bed with a board between them. This gave the couple a certain amount of privacy, but it was still supervised,keep in mind that these were small houses and the parents would be in the next room or in the same room as the courting couple. The amazing thing is that it worked. In the period where bundling was the norm New England had one of the lowest pre-marital pregnancy rate in history. For a more detailed discussion I would reccomend Albion's Seed by David Fischer. -Kaite ------------------------------ carole newson-smith [19,226]CSuX:none Subject: None From: Carole Newson-Smith Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 09:31:09 U Glenna Jo & Bill Christen wrote: >What was "macassar" made of, as in crocheted "Antimacassars" to keep >upholstery clean... I understood it was a soft waxy material. Macassar is oil from the macassar nut. It apparently stained the furniture if you didn't put little crocheted doilies on the parts of the chair where a man would rest his head and put his hands. Certainly the little doilies could be more easily washed. I have a friend who rents out her spare room from time to time, and recently had an Indian gentleman as a guest. She tells me that he put something on his hair that made it shine, and the stuff smelled really bad to her; she was pretty sure that it was macassar oil because he had some in his bathroom. Carole Newson-Smith ------------------------------ ella lynoure rajamaki [26,227]CSuX:stain on brocade Subject: Re: Stain on brocade From: Ella Lynoure Rajamaki Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 19:43:25 +2 On 6 Jun 97 at 3:08, Maggie Pierce wrote: > Ketchup isn't responsible for the characteristic color of many Cantonese > restaurant sweet/sour dishes. And if you've ever made one at home, you also > know it isn't a color that occurs in nature. That red is seriously > artificial. I couldn't tell you why or when it became characteristic, but it > is certainly not "ketchup". Your waiter was doubtless thinking on his feet. After eating several sweet and sour sauces in several different chinese restaurants, I can tell not many sauces are identical. So the cause might or might not have tomato in it (likely not ketchup, though). BTW, if anyone wants to e-mail me their favourite sweet and sour sauce recipe, I will be very happy. I'm still looking for the perfect one. And sorry I wasted some bandwidth with this. -------(c) 1997----------------* lynoure@iki.fi * Ella Lynoure Rajamaki----------*http://www.iki.fi/~lynoure* ------------------------------------------------------------ a small chaotic multi-era creature.------------------------- ------------------------------ mara riley [35,228]CSuX:nails/ells Subject: Re: nails/ells From: Mara Riley Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 21:48:11 -0400 So, this would make one Scotch ell to be about a yard... A Flemish ell would be 30 inches. The '1 yard' seems to be 40 inches (!) An English ell is 62.5 inches A French ell is 75 inches A Scotch ell is 37 inches... So do we know _which kind of ell_ is being used when referring to leines? Is the Scotch ell likely to have been used by the Irish? Sigh... Corbie In a message dated 97-05-30 15:13:03 EDT, suetoo@PUREATRIA.COM (Sue Toorans) writes: << I was going through one of my weaving books (_The Key To Weaving_, by Mary E. Black) when I came across the following table. I thought you would be amused. Cloth Measure 2.5 inches = 1 nail 4 nails = 1 quarter 3 quarters = 1 Flemish ell 4 quarters = 1 yard 5 quarters = 1 English ell 6 quarters = 1 French ell 37 inches = 1 Scotch ell >> ------------------------------ katrina worley [18,229]CSuX:h-cost 1840 s gown Subject: H-Cost re: 1840's gown From: Katrina Worley Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 19:30:54 -0700 Jocelyn: Thanks for the kind words about the 1840's wrapper pattern. While I have been involved in making my own period clothing for many years, this was my first attempt at drafting a pattern to be used by other people. On the whole, the feedback has been very positive (positive enough that I'm in the process of developing a "tucker and cuff" pattern to go with it. Katrina Katrina Worley kworley@csus.edu ------------------------------ End of H-COSTUME Digest - 5 Jun 1997 to 6 Jun 1997 ************************************************** automatic digest processor [12,230]CSuX:h-costume digest - 6 jun 1997 to 7 jun 1997 Subject: H-COSTUME Digest - 6 Jun 1997 to 7 Jun 1997 From: Automatic digest processor Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 00:00:39 -0400 There are 7 messages totalling 175 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. nails/ells (3) 2. Bundling 3. Stain on brocade 4. Cutting fabric 5. H-COST Mardi Gras? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- william b. birner [23,231]CSuX:nails/ells Subject: Re: nails/ells From: "William B. Birner" Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 05:35:05 -0500 At 09:48 PM 6/6/97 -0400, Mara Riley wrote: >So, this would make one Scotch ell to be about a yard... >A Scotch ell is 37 inches... > >So do we know _which kind of ell_ is being used when referring to leines? Is >the Scotch ell likely to have been used by the Irish? The SCOTTISH people would give 'em 'ell but not their "SCOTCH" whiskey. The Irish prefer Irish Whiskey I guess, rather than admit to the superiority of Scottish "Scotch". :-) Just for the rocord the wonderous libation is the only proper useage of the shorter word - or so I have been told by the native Scots. Ciao, Bill ------------- wbbirner@ix.netcom.com (William B. Birner) ------------------------------ katrina [13,232]CSuX:bundling Subject: Re: Bundling From: Katrina Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 15:36:30 -0400 Bundling was a courtship custom. I know it was practiced in rural = America for a long time. A young man would travel miles to see a young = lady and have dinner with her parents. By this time it was too late to = travel back to his own home. Because of limited space he would often = share a bed with his sweetheart. To prevent any fooling around, a board = was stood up between the couple. It was usually 8-12" high. There were = slots made in the head and footboards to hold the bundling board so it = didn't fall over in the middle of the night.=20 Kat Hargus ------------------------------ allyson tripp rozell [11,233]CSuX:stain on brocade Subject: Re: Stain on brocade From: Allyson Tripp Rozell Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 11:31:12 -0700 I seem to recall the most common coloring for the red sweet and sour is annatto extract, which is also used as a fabric dye. How do you feel about pink brocade? :) Good luck, Allyson Tripp Rozell atripp@sfu.ca ------------------------------ glenn and shanda grieb [33,234]CSuX:cutting fabric Subject: Re: Cutting fabric From: Glenn and Shanda Grieb Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 14:31:02 -0500 > The reason I asked about the term 'cutting on the cross' is this. I have the > pattern for a 10th century gown from Holkboer (sp?) "Patterns for Theatrical > Costume" (I think this is its name-I have most of it photocopied, so no > title is handy-very vague of me!) > Lydie The book is Patterns for Theatrical Costumes by Katherine Strand Holkeboer. I think it's a wonderful book but is, IMHO, not for the amateur seamstress since it is mainly sketches of costumes, trim ideas, and pattern pieces which you must find a way to enlarge. There are no suggestions for layout, fabric types, yardage,construction, etc., but the patterns have worked very nicely for me. I am currently working on an Italian renaissance gown based on the gown on pp.164, and it's turning out just beautifully! In order to do the skirt for this dress I had to spend quite a bit of time figuring out a.)how many pieces to make the skirt into (for cutting), b.)what shape to make them or where to place the break line for each piece (so they would fit on my 45" width fabric and maintain the propper grainline), and c.)how much yardage it would require to lay it all out. Whew! I must say I was pretty proud of myself when I was done and it all worked out perfectly! Maybe there's an easy way to do all that, but know one's ever shown me. I'm basically self-taught. Anyone else worked a pattern from this book? Just curious to hear how yours turned out. :) Regards, Shanda ------------------------------ maggie pierce [22,235]CSuX:nails/ells Subject: Re: nails/ells From: Maggie Pierce Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 15:58:14 -0400 In a message dated 97-06-07 06:36:07 EDT, wbbirner@IX.NETCOM.COM (William B. Birner) writes: > > The SCOTTISH people would give 'em 'ell but not their "SCOTCH" whiskey. The > Irish prefer Irish Whiskey I guess, rather than admit to the superiority of > Scottish "Scotch". :-) > Just for the rocord the wonderous libation is the only proper useage of the > shorter word - or so I have been told by the native Scots. > LOL, ok. But... This usage is currently correct. However, "Scotch" was used in period documents to refer to the Scots. The Scots English form of the word was "Scottis". In particular, refer to "The Steel Bonnets" by George MacDonald Frazier. MaggiRos ------------------------------ william b. birner [35,236]CSuX:nails/ells Subject: Re: nails/ells From: "William B. Birner" Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 18:20:08 -0500 At 03:58 PM 6/7/97 -0400, MaggiRos@aol.com wrote: >In a message dated 97-06-07 06:36:07 EDT, wbbirner@IX.NETCOM.COM (William B. >Birner) writes: > >> >> The SCOTTISH people would give 'em 'ell but not their "SCOTCH" whiskey. >The >> Irish prefer Irish Whiskey I guess, rather than admit to the superiority >of >> Scottish "Scotch". :-) >> Just for the rocord the wonderous libation is the only proper useage of >the >> shorter word - or so I have been told by the native Scots. >> >LOL, ok. But... This usage is currently correct. However, "Scotch" was used >in period documents to refer to the Scots. The Scots English form of the >word was "Scottis". In particular, refer to "The Steel Bonnets" by George >MacDonald Frazier. Well, I have a Frazier and a MacDonald as close friends. I just call 'em both "Wee Laddies". But seriously, I didn't know the earlier history of the nomenclatue as I have had little connection with the Scots except for superb Single Malts and a desire to do a Brigadoon theme one Mardi Gras. It was only around here that I even learned how modern the clan tartans and dress really are. Ciao, Bill ------------- wbbirner@ix.netcom.com (William B. Birner) ------------------------------ margo anderson [13,237]CSuX:h-cost mardi gras? Subject: H-COST Mardi Gras? From: Margo Anderson Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 17:39:07 -0700 I have had little connection with the Scots except for >superb Single Malts and a desire to do a Brigadoon theme one Mardi Gras. Ooooh...with all the plaid done in bugle beads and sequins???? It makes my brain hurt, but I love it. Margo ------------------------------ End of H-COSTUME Digest - 6 Jun 1997 to 7 Jun 1997 ************************************************** h-costume-digest-approval@world.std.com (h-costume-digest)[8,238]CSuX:h-costume-digest v1 #5 Subject: h-costume-digest V1 #5 From: h-costume-digest-approval@world.std.com (h-costume-digest) Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 12:09:09 -0400 (EDT) h-costume-digest Sunday, June 8 1997 Volume 01 : Number 005 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- glenn and shanda grieb [16,239]CSuX:the pen-pal guy Subject: Re: H-COST: Re: The Pen-Pal Guy From: Glenn and Shanda Grieb Date: Thu, 05 Jun 1997 20:29:40 -0500 - -Poster: Glenn and Shanda Grieb Yikes!!!!!!!!!!! Didn't mean to start a war here. Besides, this person may well actually be sitting back enjoying all the furor, and we're all just fanning the flames. So....why don't we just ignore him if he makes us uncomfortable, and move on to, oh I don't know...maybe some more historic costuming? Shanda Who does not wish to pass judgement on anyone, who knows her opinions are just that; one opinion/one person, and who is interested peaceful coexistance and the right to ignore those who interfere with that. ------------------------------ roxann barber [33,240]CSuX:h-costume-digest v1 #3 Subject: Re: H-COST: Re: h-costume-digest V1 #3 From: Roxann Barber Date: Thu, 05 Jun 1997 19:38:13 -0700 - -Poster: Roxann Barber Agnes Gawne wrote: > Please - you may be correct in British-English but in American English > sewing classes "Cross Grain" means cut from one side selvedge to the other > side selvedge, straight across - no bias at all. > > Incidentally, could one of our British list members address this language > question? Do the British use 'bias' to mean 45 degree angle from the > selvedge edge? Do the British use the expressions 'cross grain' and 'on > the grain'? > > I know we often have different terms for things and this would be > a significant problem in giving directions if we were to be unaware of > this... > > Thanks, > Agnes > Seattle, Washington, USA > hoping to understand our language on both sides of the pond. And then there is bias and true-bias, true-bias being 45 degrees and having the most stretch and bias just any old angle not on the straight or cross grain. Sorry to add to the confusion Roxy Barber ------------------------------ roxann barber [18,241]CSuX:backwards Subject: Re: H-COST: Backwards From: Roxann Barber Date: Thu, 05 Jun 1997 19:40:39 -0700 - -Poster: Roxann Barber MSBEASLEY@aol.com wrote: > anyone having the same trouble I am. I get the rely to the thread before I > get the original thread. AOL(my carrier) says to check here as they don't > know anything about it? > > Thanks ahead or behind as in my case > B. Me too, I thought maybe I just wasn't using my software properly Roxy Barber ------------------------------ cat [11,242]CSuX:the pen-pal guy Subject: H-COST: Re: The Pen-Pal Guy From: Cat Date: Thu, 05 Jun 1997 17:54:39 -0700 - -Poster: Cat I'm willing to bring marshmallows to this latest auto-da-fe! C'mon, folks, let's quit before this gets _way_ too silly. - - Cat ------------------------------ noelle nicol [36,243]CSuX:the pen-pal guy Subject: Re: H-COST: Re: The Pen-Pal Guy From: Noelle Nicol Date: Thu, 05 Jun 1997 19:21:10 -0700 - -Poster: Noelle Nicol Glenn and Shanda Grieb wrote: > > -Poster: Glenn and Shanda Grieb > > Yikes!!!!!!!!!!! Didn't mean to start a war here. Besides, this person > may well actually be sitting back enjoying all the furor, and we're all > just fanning the flames. So....why don't we just ignore him if he makes > us uncomfortable, and move on to, oh I don't know...maybe some more > historic costuming? > > Shanda > > Who does not wish to pass judgement on anyone, who knows her opinions > are just that; one opinion/one person, and who is interested peaceful > coexistance and the right to ignore those who interfere with that. Actually, I was just at Planet Hollywood in San Francisco yesterday, and they had three of the costumes of Richard Chamberlaine's version of Three Musketeers, including Milady's dress with the _real_ ermine collar. Yummy!!! OKay, so It was a cheap thrill for me- everyone else gawking at Swarzenegger's cigar stub, and I'm staring at gary Cooper's waistcoat looking at cut-line and seams. BTW- did anyone know that they handstitched the lining at the neck of waistcoats? The stitches are fairly large and quite obvious . . . Still full of Louis gowns, and leather doublets, Noelle ------------------------------ glenn and shanda grieb [11,244]CSuX:great kilt url Subject: H-COST: Great Kilt URL From: Glenn and Shanda Grieb Date: Thu, 05 Jun 1997 22:40:01 -0500 - -Poster: Glenn and Shanda Grieb For anyone who's interested, I just stumbled onto this web site about how to wrap and wear the Great Kilt.... http://sunsite.unc.edu/gaelic/john/greatkilt.html Shanda ------------------------------ gia gavino-gattshall [10,245]CSuX:the pen-pal guy Subject: Re: H-COST: Re: The Pen-Pal Guy From: "Gia Gavino-Gattshall" Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 18:30:10 -0700 - -Poster: "Gia Gavino-Gattshall" LOL. I don't even remember this guy except for all the comments... Gia ------------------------------ don & carolyn richardson [12,246]CSuX:backwards Subject: H-COST: H-cost: Backwards From: Don & Carolyn Richardson Date: Thu, 05 Jun 1997 20:51:10 -0700 - -Poster: Don & Carolyn Richardson Well, I don't know what AOL is doing but for those of you using Netscape (like Me) I found the solution, sort of, tonight. NOt only do you need to use the Options - Mail preferences - thread messages, but in you also need to go to View - Sort - Ascending. This has almost cleared it up on my machine (although not quite). Carolyn ------------------------------ irene lenoir [5,247]CSuX:h-cost the pen-pal guy Subject: H-COST: Re: H-COST The Pen-Pal Guy From: Irene leNoir Date: Thu, 5 Jun 97 22:46:11 -0500 - -Poster: Irene leNoir ------------------------------ aquazoo@dcez.com (ed safford & carol kocian)[44,248]CSuX:kinky Subject: Re: H-COST: kinky From: aquazoo@dcez.com (Ed Safford & Carol Kocian) Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 08:26:29 -0500 - -Poster: aquazoo@dcez.com (Ed Safford & Carol Kocian) Susan Fatemi wrote, > We live in a wonderful age, but people are so *paranoid*. I know, >I know, "trust no one." But LIGHTEN UP folks. > >Personally, I think those stay-laced people are a little kinky, but >that's their business. They aren't hurting me any. As long as they >don't do it in the street and frighten the horses ... I know Susan was still joking when she wrote this, and Shanda also mentioned that she "is interested peaceful coexistance and the right to ignore those who interfere with that." Three years ago or so, however, there was a man who joined the list who was interested in corsetry for non-historic reasons. I believe he was looking for (and interested in sharing) historic information to support his interests. His notes were polite, but when some people realized the nature of his interests he was flamed both privately and on the list. Eventually he rose to the bait and responded to one of these flames, and was kicked off the list. I find it interesting that the responses to the Pen Pal guy are a lot more calm and civilized. This is a good thing, and I hope all our conversations can be that way. But enough of this, a costume discussion should not consist of what does or does not count as a costume discussion! A tidbit for those who have read thus far: I recently looked at some original white linen caps of the 18thC. The Kannick's hand sewing book is right on in describing the stitches used. (Kannick's Korner, PO Box 1654, Springfield, OH 45501-1624; (513) 325-8385. The book costs approx. $10.00) My surprise was that all parts of the cap were one layer. The band DOES NOT have a facing that encloses the back & ruffle seam allowances, which is how most of us make them. The fabric was very fine. -Carol ------------------------------ carol kocian [29,249]CSuX:long hair Subject: H-COST: Re: Long Hair From: "Carol Kocian" Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 09:52:45 EST - -Poster: "Carol Kocian" Long hair seems to be quite popular among historic costume types. For more info on the subject, take a look at The Long Hair Site: http://www.tlhs.org There is also an e-mail discussion group which anyone may join by sending a note to Frank Ploenessen asking to be added to the list. This is not an automated list, so no specific commands are needed. The discussion group covers hair care and products. There are short-haired men on the list who like long hair on women and enjoy talking about it. The list is highly moderated, though, and e-mail addresses are removed from the notes unless the poster requests that they be included. (I had my address posted while organizing a meeting of local list members, and haven't received any odd or rude notes from it.) Traffic averages about 15 short to medium length notes per day. Speaking of lists, I noticed that I'm getting two digests, one from World and one from Brown. Have not everyone switched over to World? I just changed my address book this morning to reflect the change so all my notes go to World. -Carol Kocian ------------------------------ susan j. evans [20,250]CSuX:linseed oil to treat edges Subject: H-COST: Linseed oil to treat edges From: "Susan J. Evans" Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 10:11:52 -0400 - -Poster: "Susan J. Evans" >Though I have no evidence.... it is possible for a sort of 'drying oil' >such as linseed, to keep it from fraying... as I think that while >burning would help for a little while, as soon as the 'ash' wears off, >the fabric is back to fraying.... I would not use linseed oil on costume - it generates a lot of heat as it oxidizes (dries) and can eventually burst into flame, especially if it's closed in - such as in a garment bag. In doing home improvement projects, there are always warnings about being very careful with rags that have linseed oil on them. Sue Evans ------------------------------ eliz@world.std.com (elizabeth lear)[12,251]CSuX:the pen-pal guy Subject: Re: H-COST: Re: The Pen-Pal Guy From: eliz@world.std.com (Elizabeth Lear) Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 10:15:57 -0400 - -Poster: eliz@world.std.com (Elizabeth Lear) Please, everyone, let's just drop this topic and get back to talking about costuming! Thanks. ...eliz, list admin ------------------------------ aramanth dawe [32,252]CSuX:h-costume-digest v1 #3 Subject: Re: H-COST: Re: h-costume-digest V1 #3 From: Aramanth Dawe Date: Fri, 06 Jun 1997 08:57:17 - -Poster: Aramanth Dawe At 03:58 PM 4/06/97 -0700, Agnes Gawne wrote: > >Incidentally, could one of our British list members address this language >question? Do the British use 'bias' to mean 45 degree angle from the >selvedge edge? Do the British use the expressions 'cross grain' and 'on >the grain'? > >I know we often have different terms for things and this would be >a significant problem in giving directions if we were to be unaware of >this... > >Thanks, >Agnes >Seattle, Washington, USA >hoping to understand our language on both sides of the pond. > My mother, who is British, and worked as a tailor in Australia for many years, has aways used the term 'on the bias' for 45% from the selvage edge, 'cross grain' for selvedge to selvedge and 'on the grain' for lengthwise use pf the fabric. It seems we may have found at least one common set of terms! Aramanth (Given that the original poster is Australian, the terms as used in Britain, if different, may not be relevant to her) ------------------------------ eliz@world.std.com (elizabeth lear)[15,253]CSuX:long hair Subject: Re: H-COST: Re: Long Hair From: eliz@world.std.com (Elizabeth Lear) Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 10:29:21 -0400 - -Poster: eliz@world.std.com (Elizabeth Lear) < Speaking of lists, I noticed that I'm getting two digests, one [28,254]CSuX:linseed oil to treat edges Subject: Re: H-COST: Linseed oil to treat edges From: "R.L. Shep" Date: Fri, 06 Jun 1997 08:13:44 -0800 - -Poster: "R.L. Shep" Susan J. Evans wrote: > > -Poster: "Susan J. Evans" > > >Though I have no evidence.... it is possible for a sort of 'drying oil' > >such as linseed, to keep it from fraying... as I think that while > >burning would help for a little while, as soon as the 'ash' wears off, > >the fabric is back to fraying.... > > I would not use linseed oil on costume - it generates a lot of heat as it > oxidizes (dries) and can eventually burst into flame, especially if it's > closed in - such as in a garment bag. In doing home improvement projects, > there are always warnings about being very careful with rags that have > linseed oil on them. > > Sue Evans > Linseed oil is dangerous to your health... it is used by artists who paint in oil. Many went got sick because of it.. That is why acrylics are used so much now instead ofoil.. be careful ~!~ R.L. Shep ------------------------------ donna holsten [41,255]CSuX:late 13th cen--buttons Subject: H-COST: Late 13th Cen--buttons From: "Donna Holsten" Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 09:33:19 -0600 (CST) - -Poster: "Donna Holsten" First, thanks to everyone who commented about my cloak questions. I'm still not sure what I'm going to do, but I have a little more to think about. Now, I have another question. Both the Museum of London's _Textiles_ and _Dress Accessories_ books say that buttons started being used in England by the *early 13th Century*. (Which apparently contradicts a lot of earlier research that says they weren't used until the 14th cen.) They've found metal buttons that they date to the 1200's. However, they haven't found any buttons actually on any garments from that time. I've also not seen any buttons on illuminations/sculptures from that century. 1310, 1320, yes--but not from the 1250's - 1300. (Except for the 16th cen re-drawing of a 13th cen tomb effigy, in Davenport--which I personally think is a bit questionable...) So, has anyone seen buttons anywhere on garments from 1250 - 1300? My husband really wants to make pewter buttons for these outfits, and the books say it would be appropriate, (and, in fact, show drawings of actual buttons that are dated from that time) but don't say how or where they were used! The books do mention that, later, they inserted the buttons through eyelet holes and secured them from the back with laces. Since they haven't found buttonholes from the late 13th cen, maybe this is how the buttons were used then? Also, since they haven't found buttons on garments from this period, they obviously haven't found any cloth buttons--because those are sewn to the garment as part of the making of the button. So the only cloth buttons they have in _Textiles_ are from the 14th Cen. Does anyone know of any evidence at all for cloth buttons in the 13th Cen? And, as long as we're talking about buttons/sleeve closures, I've heard that they would "sew up" the sleeves every morning. Now, the question is, does anyone know of any evidence that "sew up" in this case actually means that someone got out a needle and thread, vs. "sewing up" the sleeves with laces through eyelet holes? Donna (holsten@nature.berkeley.edu) ------------------------------ broneske [35,256]CSuX:the pen-pal guy Subject: RE: H-COST: Re: The Pen-Pal Guy From: Broneske Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 14:20:27 -0700 - -Poster: Broneske Ouch!! Somebody can't take a joke!!! You'll have to forgive me, I am still getting used to the idea of living = in The United Socialist States of America and I wouldn't want the PC = Gestapo to send the ACLU after me. Please pardon this "repressed = Republican granny" for saying something "insensitive to another race, = culture, ethnicity, gender, lifestyle, etc" outloud. I guess the only = people who are allowed to "throw stones" are those who live in = "left-sided houses", hmmm? It's very hard to take someone seriously who = purports to be fair and tolerant by pointing out that another person is = being intolerant and are old, stuffy and, God forbid, Republican. = Sounds pretty "intolerant" to me. This political message was brought to you by the Colonists for a Free = America, we now return you to your regularly scheduled historical = costuming program...... I would like to make a late 1840's dress, the type with the vertical = pleating on the bodice. I would use a pattern if I could find a good = one, or I can draft my own. Does anyone have any experience or advice = on any patterns available for this time period? A woman I know has one = that was made for her and when loose, looks, well...large and loose. It = is then brought in at the waist with a tie, thereby creating the = vertical pleats from the shoulder to the waist. Is anyone familiar with = this technique or perhaps the pattern it was created from? Thanks! Joan Broneske Republican Granny at Large ------------------------------ r.l. shep [13,257]CSuX:(need help on costume bibl) Subject: H-COST: [Fwd: need help on costume bibl] From: "R.L. Shep" Date: Fri, 06 Jun 1997 14:37:53 -0800 - -Poster: "R.L. Shep" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - --------------67894AAA97A anyone have any information that could help? Liz Fugate is the Librarian of the Drama Library at University of Washington in Seattle. Thanks ~!~ R.L. Shep - --------------67894AAA97A elizabeth fugate [20,258]CSuX:need help on costume bibl Subject: need help on costume bibl From: Elizabeth Fugate Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 11:59:38 -0700 (PDT) I have the possibility of a grant for expensive costume material. All my costume collections on microfiche are old enough that the distributors no longer exist. Do you know where I can get a list of costume material preferrably in slide or CDRom, but video is ok. I'm looking for something similar to History of Costume 3100BC - 1930 by Jeanne Button & Stephen Sbarge or Russian Scene and Costume Design by Carl Mueller. Have you got any suggestions? Thanks. - --------------67894AAA97A-- ------------------------------ danielle nunn [17,259]CSuX:elizabethan tall hats - me too! Subject: H-COST: Elizabethan tall hats - ME TOO! From: Danielle Nunn Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 18:42:39 -0400 (EDT) - -Poster: Danielle Nunn Greetings all, If anyone does know of a source for Elizabethan tall hats please post the info to the list. I'm sure there are many of us who would love to know. Cheers, Danielle dnunn@interlog.com ------------------------------ danielle nunn [28,260]CSuX:(none) Subject: [none] From: Danielle Nunn Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 18:51:55 -0400 (EDT) - -Poster: Danielle Nunn Greetings, I agreed to post this for a friend of mine who does custom ruffs. If you are interested please contact her at: Marsha McLean (SCA Dame Madinia Deveraux O'Tuatail) 111 Boston Avenue Toronto, Ontario Canada M4M 2T8 (416)466-6873 She also has one of those fancy sewing machines that does embroidery... We will put together a catalogue sometime in the future. Danielle dnunn@interlog.com ------------------------------ joycelyn falsken [28,261]CSuX:sleepwear Subject: H-COST: Re: Sleepwear From: Joycelyn Falsken Date: Fri, 06 Jun 1997 16:36:54 -0700 - -Poster: Joycelyn Falsken list Kay N. Webb wrote: > > Nightcaps for warm heads, knitted slippers for the feet, long dressing > gowns, > > let's not forget they also oiled/lard? on their hands and put them in > gloves for sleeping. > to wear a wool cap and wool socks with clean underwear and nothing else on. (Of course, two naked bodies will always produce plenty of heat..oops definitely not w/ boy scouts..) cures I used... load on the hand cream (not lotion as it has alcohol) and put the gloves on to help it all soak in overnight without getting all over the sheets. It also kept my fingers from burning and itching during the night. Even now, if I'm sewing alot, some fabric tends to dry out my fingertips quite alot and I have to pull out the hydrocortisone. - -- Joycelyn jfalsken@ricochet.net ------------------------------ joycelyn falsken [19,262]CSuX:1840 gown Subject: Re: H-COST: Re: 1840 gown From: Joycelyn Falsken Date: Fri, 06 Jun 1997 16:53:59 -0700 - -Poster: Joycelyn Falsken Broneske wrote: > > I would like to make a late 1840's dress, the type with the vertical pleating on the bodice. I would use a pattern if I could find a good one, or I can draft my own. Does anyone have any experience or advice on any patterns available for this time period? A woman I know has one that was made for her and when loose, looks, well...large and loose. It is then brought in at the waist with a tie, thereby creating the vertical pleats from the shoulder to the waist. Is anyone familiar with this te > Joan, I recently purchased a pattern exactly like you are describing from Sutter's Fort in CA. I believe it was developed by Katrina Worley who is on this list. Its called 1840's Wrapper Dress. Overall, it was a very good pattern and I made two dresses with good results. - -- Joycelyn jfalsken@ricochet.net ------------------------------ albertcat@aol.com[40,263]CSuX:elizabethan tall hats - me too! Subject: Re: H-COST: Elizabethan tall hats - ME TOO! From: AlbertCat@aol.com Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 10:15:54 -0400 (EDT) - -Poster: AlbertCat@aol.com Greetings, I hold in my hand a Xeroxed copy of a catalogue for Hatcrafters, Inc 20 N. Springfield Rd Clifton Heights, PA 19018 (215) 623-2620 It was being thrown out when a movie I worked on several years ago wrapped. So you see it's old but on page 6 are several acceptable...IMHO...specimens: # 62 Salem [tall rounded crown, 3" (maybe) brim]....Base price $56 # 64 Puritan [tall flat top crown, wide brim (so cut it down if you want)]..... Bp $58 # 264 Plymouth [ flat top, smaller brim]...Bp $58 There are also hats on page 4 that could be tweaked a bit & work: #243 Amish......Base price $54 # 48 Round hat [sorta 1920's cowboy-like].....Bp $54 It's hard to describe a hat accurately, for instance the Puritan & the Plymouth are essentially the same but look different...one's more conical....you just have to see them so write for a catalogue. As you can see they're not exactly cheap but if you pull off the labels from hats you get at, like, Amazon Dry Goods guess whose logo you find? Good quality, nice people who will work w/ you. I use to make costumes for a rental place in Charlotte, NC. This was a masquerade type shop but had lots of good theatrical things buried in stock as well [I made most of them] Anyway, they had dozens of these cheap, thin pilgrim hats for Thanksgiving rentals. They were of the type you see a lot at Halloween...thin black felt heavily sized. I use to doctor them up...add a 1" grosgrain band [you could use leather] around the inside crown, cut the brim to the size I want& add some milinary wire to the edge, cover & line them in nice fabrics, add feathers & rosettes & Tah-Dah!! Unfortunately I have no Idea where they got these cheapies. Some big masquerade house might know but you may have to buy a dozen. ------------------------------ sara j. davitt [18,264]CSuX:burning edges of fabric: wait! Subject: Re: H-COST: Burning edges of fabric: Wait! From: "Sara J. Davitt" Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 10:52:54 -0500 (CDT) - -Poster: "Sara J. Davitt" > > On Tue, 3 Jun 1997, Gail DeCamp wrote: > > Well, wait. I recall reading that the Victorians singed the ends of hair > > to prevent split ends. If they could do this to human hair, that was This is, I think, one of those common victorian blunders... because every hair that I have singed, had split as a result, it protects the ends in ashe, for a few seconds, but when that falls off, you get the oh-so-pretty white tipped, split hairs. just an observation! Sarahj ------------------------------ sara j. davitt [31,265]CSuX:kinky Subject: Re: H-COST: kinky From: "Sara J. Davitt" Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 11:26:07 -0500 (CDT) - -Poster: "Sara J. Davitt" > > Three years ago or so, however, there was a man who joined the list > who was interested in corsetry for non-historic reasons. I believe he was > looking for (and interested in sharing) historic information to support his > interests. His notes were polite, but when some people realized the nature > of his interests he was flamed both privately and on the list. Eventually > he rose to the bait and responded to one of these flames, and was kicked > off the list. Having done a reserach paper on corsets as history, up the the present fetish useages, I was amazed by the problems communicating because they would call an 18th cent corset, vicorian, and a merry widow, a fully boned corset.... Be happy that this 'kinky personality' wanted to learn from the list, be might be able to pass along information, that might help dispell costume/corset myths. We keep complaining about how people don't understand what is period and what is not... and someone who was making an honest attempt to *learn* was flamed off the list because of his intention???? I think that is pretty petty.--- You see attempts to learn are what differentiates people from the morons of this world-- so don't flame those with an honest intention to understand. Thank you. Sarahj ------------------------------ sara j. davitt [32,266]CSuX:cutting fabric/pomegranate Subject: H-COST: Cutting fabric/pomegranate From: "Sara J. Davitt" Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 11:39:17 -0500 (CDT) - -Poster: "Sara J. Davitt" > << Madonna in a gown that was definitely on the bias--or was at least > patterned that way. The fabric appeared to be a brocade with a > pomegranate pattern >> > > The pomegranate has religious significance I believe....probably something > left over from that pagan myth of Persephone(sp?). [Don'tcha love how they > incorporate things]. Anyway it was probably the artist's call here & has Pomegranates are what caused the seasons, Persephone was captured by Hades, and she couldn't eat anythin of that world or she'd be trapped there... but eventuallyu she got *really* hungry, and when he mom cam to get her... she had to debate it out with Hades, and they came to the conclusionm that they would split the time with her... she ate 6 seeds, so she is there for six monthes... and persphone, being the goddess of warmth and flowers(and probably cute puppies) gets taken to hades, while the rest of us are trapped in the frozen tundra. (California need not apply) anyway, that is the unacademic version of Greek myths... the pomegranate is also a fertility symbol, and has 'motherly' conotations, which is why it was painted with the madonna. if anyone else has any info on the pomegranate, recipies or where to get them out of season, or other various and sundry symbolisimes, please contact me privately. thanks! Take Care, Sarahj ------------------------------ faireygirl@aol.com[12,267]CSuX:the pen-pal guy(pleat front bodice) Subject: Re: H-COST: Re: The Pen-Pal Guy(Pleat front bodice) From: FaireyGirl@aol.com Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 13:23:17 -0400 (EDT) - -Poster: FaireyGirl@aol.com I don't know if this is what you mean but in the "Victorian Costuming" book by Janet Winter and Carolyn Savoy they show a "fan front" bodice. They give 1840's as the date and from the looks of it, it appears pretty easy to do. Hope this helps. Saya ------------------------------ msbeasley@aol.com[10,268]CSuX:elizabethan tall hats - me too! Subject: Re: H-COST: Elizabethan tall hats - ME TOO! From: MSBEASLEY@aol.com Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 14:12:17 -0400 (EDT) - -Poster: MSBEASLEY@aol.com Why don't you just post it here for all to read. Share Thanks ------------------------------ broneske [20,269]CSuX:1840 s dress Subject: H-COST:RE: 1840's Dress From: Broneske Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 15:20:17 -0700 - -Poster: Broneske Thanks to everyone on the 1840's dress advice, especially Joan J. and = Joycelyn......I just went down to the Fort today and purchased the = 1840's wrapper pattern. 'Nother question....... The pattern calls for 7 yards of 45" fabric, assuming a 40" skirt = length. Now, I am a fairly short person -- about 5' tall, short waisted = and short legged. I think my skirt length is only about oh, 36-37 = inches. Could I possibly get away with less fabric? If so, how would I = calculate the amount? Thanks!! Joan B. ------------------------------ albertcat@aol.com[31,270]CSuX:1840 s dress Subject: Re: H-COST:RE: 1840's Dress From: AlbertCat@aol.com Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 20:15:33 -0400 (EDT) - -Poster: AlbertCat@aol.com In a message dated 97-06-07 18:52:00 EDT, unicorn@softcom.net (Broneske) writes: << The pattern calls for 7 yards of 45" fabric, assuming a 40" skirt length. Now, I am a fairly short person -- about 5' tall, short waisted and short legged. I think my skirt length is only about oh, 36-37 inches. Could I possibly get away with less fabric? If so, how would I calculate the amount? >> It's always best to have too much fabric than not enough but.... Most all 1840 dresses I've seen & made have skirts that are straight panels sewn selvage to selvage. At 45" wide one needs 3 panels to get an approx 4 yd hem....which is right. Take your waist to floor, subtract the distance from the floor you want the hem...'bout 2" to 3" I'd think for the 1840's, Add a 3" or so hem plus seam allowance (1/2") & you have one panel.....[37+ 3.5 = 40.5] .... multiply by 3 you get 121.5" or 3.375 yds. Now add what you need for the bodice & trim. You can easily figure this out if you have the pattern. Just cut it out & lay it out on anything 45" wide. I always get 12 yards for a long period dress w/ self trim. I always have some left over for vest fronts or fancy facings. Not economical $$$ wise but very economical grey matter wise. May I also say I love the 1840's. Simple cuts but difficult dresses to make as there is nothing to hide behind. An exquisite fabric is a must as it is often the only design element on these austere gowns. Cut it & construct it most carefully. Fit it well over the correct corset. Wear the proper underpinnings. Do you hair & accessorize w/ mitts, a shawl, & a lace cap. It will be magnificent! ------------------------------ leslie h [18,271]CSuX:highlander Subject: H-COST: Highlander From: "Leslie H" Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 00:26:14 +0000 - -Poster: "Leslie H" Gee, I'd love to contribute something to Highlander costume thread, but I'm afraid neither of the McLeod boys ever motivate me to think of putting clothes ON them... Dreamily, Leslie (Just so's I don't get bashed for not saying ahything at all on topic, note that most plaids overdye quite beautifully and if you have a great fabric that is just too bright and will take wetting, have at it! The minor color variations I get when using fiber-reactive dyes on large pieces seem to be cancelled out by the plaid, and the muted tones can be very lush and lovely.) ------------------------------ asia reva poppers [30,272]CSuX:elizabethan tall-crown felt hats Subject: RE: H-COST: Elizabethan tall-crown felt hats From: Asia Reva Poppers Date: Sun, 08 Jun 1997 12:02:50 -0400 - -Poster: Asia Reva Poppers Howdy, all--thanks so much for the info you've all provided, and also for the sympathy for my predicament in trying to find these hats. I just re-read my original post, and realized that there is an important detail that I left out--the hats I'm looking for have a rounded crown--the crowns are taller than they are wide, and domed, not flat, at the top. Also, the specific model I'm thinking of is sold with a wider brim than the Elizabethans liked--you have to cut it down a couple of inches. Thanks again to all of you who suggested sources--you seem to have generally inferred the round-crown detail on your own, but I thought, just for further clarification, I'd mention it any way. The hats that I have seen are not fancy--no trim, (until you put some on), very basic, and they were not heavy-duty, really high quality pieces. They were fine, not flimsy, but basically just wool felt and nothing else. They were also pretty affordable--not more than $30 each, and I seem to remember the actual price being $16, though it's been eight years and prices and the accuracy of my recollection are both bound to have changed, in opposite directions. ------------------------------ End of h-costume-digest V1 #5 ***************************** automatic digest processor [10,273]CSuX:h-costume digest - 7 jun 1997 to 8 jun 1997 Subject: H-COSTUME Digest - 7 Jun 1997 to 8 Jun 1997 From: Automatic digest processor Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 00:00:41 -0400 There are 3 messages totalling 57 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. unsubscribe 2. H-COST Mardi Gras? 3. H-COST Mardi Gras? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- kimlhart@aol.com[4,274]CSuX:unsubscribe Subject: unsubscribe From: Kimlhart@AOL.COM Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 10:27:30 -0400 Please take my name off your list. ------------------------------ william b. birner [24,275]CSuX:h-cost mardi gras? Subject: Re: H-COST Mardi Gras? From: "William B. Birner" Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 12:51:37 -0500 At 05:39 PM 6/7/97 -0700, Margo Anderson wrote: > I have had little connection with the Scots except for >>superb Single Malts and a desire to do a Brigadoon theme one Mardi Gras. > >Ooooh...with all the plaid done in bugle beads and sequins???? It makes my >brain hurt, but I love it. You've certainly got he idea :-) I don't know how easy it will be to get 6-8 men of South Louisiana (Cajun Country) to "wear skirts" since many object to the idea of tights. What I need are some burly Scot log tossers (caber is it?) to give 'em the idea that it is the only thing REAL men would wear. Or give 'em each a fifth of Glen Morangie or The Glenlivet or Dalwhinnie to consume before shoing them the costume sketches. Ciao, Bill ------------- wbbirner@ix.netcom.com (William B. Birner) ------------------------------ maggie pierce [20,276]CSuX:h-cost mardi gras? Subject: Re: H-COST Mardi Gras? From: Maggie Pierce Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 22:35:59 -0400 In a message dated 97-06-08 13:56:41 EDT, wbbirner@IX.NETCOM.COM (William B. Birner) writes: > > You've certainly got he idea :-) I don't know how easy it will be to get > 6-8 men of South Louisiana (Cajun Country) to "wear skirts" since many > object to the idea of tights. What I need are some burly Scot log tossers > (caber is it?) to give 'em the idea that it is the only thing REAL men > would wear. Or give 'em each a fifth of Glen Morangie or The Glenlivet or > Dalwhinnie to consume before shoing them the costume sketches. > Maybe plaid trews? They fit like tights, without actually BEING tights. MaggiRos ------------------------------ End of H-COSTUME Digest - 7 Jun 1997 to 8 Jun 1997 ************************************************** h-costume-digest-approval@world.std.com (h-costume-digest)[7,277]CSuX:h-costume-digest v1 #6 Subject: h-costume-digest V1 #6 From: h-costume-digest-approval@world.std.com (h-costume-digest) Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 12:21:23 -0400 (EDT) h-costume-digest Monday, June 9 1997 Volume 01 : Number 006 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- tammy d. thompson [11,278]CSuX:13 c irish clothing Subject: H-COST: 13 c Irish clothing From: "Tammy D. Thompson" Date: Sun, 08 Jun 1997 12:24:25 -0400 - -Poster: "Tammy D. Thompson" Hello; A friend of mine is also in the SCA needs some help. He is looking for information and patterns for 13 c Irish clothing. Any help is appreciated. Thank you, Tammy ------------------------------ morghana@aol.com[45,279]CSuX:kinky Subject: Re: H-COST: kinky From: Morghana@aol.com Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 13:29:48 -0400 (EDT) - -Poster: Morghana@aol.com In a message dated 97-06-08 11:39:19 EDT, ophelia@ren.dias.net (Sara J. Davitt) writes: << We keep complaining about how people don't understand what is period and what is not... and someone who was making an honest attempt to *learn* was flamed off the list because of his intention???? I think that is pretty petty.--- You see attempts to learn are what differentiates people from the morons of this world-- so don't flame those with an honest intention to understand. >> I was on the list at the time this incident happened. From my memory, the gentleman was not particularly interested in historical aspects except as they related to corsets in fetishism. And fetishism/erotica was his stated interest. When he mentioned that he headed a certain "Staylace Society", I inquired privately, thinking perhaps they might have a body of knowledge that could be shared, and I could learn more quickly about Tudor/Elizabethan corsetry. (Dumb me didn't realize that that's evidently a term that means much to certain erotic/exotic circles....I took it at face value). He replied to me, quite politely, that that wasn't his interest, and explained that his society was basically "into" making, wearing and deriving *pleasure* from staylaced women. Was he flamed off the list? IMHO, yes. Was it deserved? I'm not sure it was. However, the gentleman could have chosen a far lower-profile stance than he chose and participated without raising hackles and outcries. The choice was his. His interest in the erotic side of corsetry kind of surprised me at first (mainly because I didn't expect to see it on a historic costuming list, but there aren't many sorts of behavior that bother me, so I just shrugged it off and wished him well in his pursuits. Anyone else who remembers the incident can correct me if I've misstated things... I'm going on (admittedly flawed) memory. I don't keep old archives that aren't of personal interest. ~Morghana ------------------------------ broneske [18,280]CSuX:yet another silk question.... Subject: H-COST: Yet another silk question.... From: Broneske Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 13:12:22 -0700 - -Poster: Broneske Hi all, What type of silk, commercially available today, would be closest to the = silks widely used in the 19th century in appearance, texture, density, = etc.? On my ever expanding list of projects is an evening/ball gown, and I = would like to make it from silk which would be as accurate as possible. = I realize this will probably cost an arm and a leg, but I would like to = attempt it when I win the lottery :) Joan Broneske ------------------------------ savaskan@znet.com (julie adams)[30,281]CSuX:cutting fabric Subject: Re: H-COST: RE: Cutting fabric From: savaskan@znet.com (Julie Adams) Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 14:25:00 -0700 - -Poster: savaskan@znet.com (Julie Adams) > One of >the reasons flat patterning is prevalent in early periods is that it's >the most logical way to make maximum efficient use of the product of an >expensive/time-intensive technology (spinning/weaving). > >I think my one experience was based on a modern costume designer's idea >of a shortcut that would produce the fullness found in true medieval >cuts, without using so much material (altho you can't say bias cutting >is exactly efficient!) I dissagree with the statement that bias cutting is not efficient. Sometimes yes, sometimes no. Depending on the pattern it can save a lot of fabric. For example, gored skirts gathered in small pleats or no pleats save far more fabric than a straight-cut gathered or cartridge pleated skirt. IMHO we have enough examples of pieced dresses to see that they did not feel the same way about piecing as we do. Some costumes seem like they possibly several widths of fabric sewn together into a larger sheet before they are cut out. If you cut on the bias from a large sheet, you can sometimes use all of the fabric with less waste. Julie Adams ------------------------------ savaskan@znet.com (julie adams)[32,282]CSuX:cutting fabric Subject: Re: H-COST: RE: Cutting fabric From: savaskan@znet.com (Julie Adams) Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 14:25:02 -0700 - -Poster: savaskan@znet.com (Julie Adams) >The pomegranate has religious significance I believe....probably something >left over from that pagan myth of Persephone(sp?). [Don'tcha love how they >incorporate things]. Anyway it was probably the artist's call here & has >nothing to do w/ real fabric & cut. But I'm no expert. It sounds beautiful & >were I doing a show in the period I'd use it anyway [if it were fit] real or >not. I have photos of actual fabrics with pomegranite motifs displayed in German museums. These are also shown in "Five Centuries of Italian Textiles", which shows the pomegranite in many period fabrics. What is cool about the book is that it shows pattern examples, the photos of actual fabric, and also paintings showing the fabric (which are often religious), and in the back, it has the thread counts and colors for each pattern. Just a note, I've found examples of "regular" folk in many of the fabrics and even styles shown in religious paintings of the 16th c. from Italy and Germany (except for ones where they are clearly trying for "biblical" styles). Its certainly wise to be careful and get a variety of sources when you want to do a gown from a religious painting, but being a religious motif in itself doesn't automatically mean that the style, cut, fabric or decoration technique was a fantasy of the artist. Perhaps it may have started that way, but it is also possible that people also incorporated symbolism into their own dress as a part of the fashion of the times. Julie Adams ------------------------------ susan fatemi [20,283]CSuX:pomegranates Subject: H-COST: pomegranates From: Susan Fatemi Date: Sun, 08 Jun 1997 15:09:56 -0700 - -Poster: Susan Fatemi I don't think anyone has mentioned it yet, so I'd like to point out that Ottoman textiles use Pomegranates *a lot*. The use of this fruit as an ornamental device dates back to the egyptians, at least. (there was a silver pomegranate "objet", not textile, in one of the tombs (Tut's?)) I think it has always been a fertility symbol, due to the number of seeds, and the tree itself will grow in very hot, arid conditions. Quite tasty and juicy, too! Susan Fatemi - -- susanf@california.com http://www.california.com/~susanf ------------------------------ albertcat@aol.com[18,284]CSuX:yet another silk question.... Subject: Re: H-COST: Yet another silk question.... From: AlbertCat@aol.com Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 20:21:07 -0400 (EDT) - -Poster: AlbertCat@aol.com In a message dated 97-06-08 16:27:29 EDT, unicorn@softcom.net (Broneske) writes: << What type of silk, commercially available today, would be closest to the silks widely used in the 19th century in appearance, texture, density, etc.? >> What part of the 19th century? The Empress Eugenie had a fondness for plain silk taffeta....often in electric Aniline dye colors. which can be found. I've seen many royal blue plain weave silk bustle gowns as well as silk brocaid & jacquard ones. I don't think I've seen a vintage gown of Shantung but I've seen beautiful costumes made of it. One thing I will say about the whole century is they tend to go for something at least a little crisp as opposed to drapey. ------------------------------ savaskan@znet.com (julie adams)[31,285]CSuX:german puff and slash Subject: Re: H-COST: Re: German puff and slash From: savaskan@znet.com (Julie Adams) Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 17:53:19 -0700 - -Poster: savaskan@znet.com (Julie Adams) Lea wrote: >>this brings to mind the only time i've gotten to see an Elizabethan doublet >>- many, *many* years ago in an exhibit at the Los Angeles County Museum of >>Art - i was floored to find that the slashes, instead of being faced or >>otherwise finished (as we would expect, from modern techniques), were simply >>cut on the bias & allowed to fray. Cynthia wrote: >And this was the technique I had been led to believe was usually the case. >But yesterday, flipping through a new book of my mom's on Italian >Renaissance art, I was surprised to find an early-mid 16th cent. portrait >of a young woman wearing a gown with slashed sleeves that were lined with a >contrasting fabric. Does this ring a bell? This being a book on Italian >art, I don't know if the practice occurred in Germany at all, but the >painting was dated around 1530. Of course I forgot to write down the >citation; if anyone is interested, I can make a note to check over the >coming weekend when I visit my mother again. Cynthia, both slashing through the fabric and letting the edges fray, and lining the other side is apparent in early German 16th c costuming. Sometimes the slashes are even edged in a contrasting fabric. There are numerous examples of each. Julie Adams ------------------------------ close@lunch.engr.sgi.com (diane close)[32,286]CSuX:kinky Subject: Re: H-COST: kinky From: close@lunch.engr.sgi.com (Diane Close) Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 17:56:40 -0700 (PDT) - -Poster: close@lunch.engr.sgi.com (Diane Close) Morghana@aol.com writes: >I was on the list at the time this incident happened. From my memory, the >gentleman was not particularly interested in historical aspects except as >they related to corsets in fetishism. And fetishism/erotica was his stated >interest. > [snip] >Was he flamed off the list? IMHO, yes. Was it deserved? I'm not sure it >was. However, the gentleman could have chosen a far lower-profile stance >than he chose and participated without raising hackles and outcries. > [snip] >Anyone else who remembers the incident can correct me if I've misstated >things... I'm going on (admittedly flawed) memory. I don't keep old >archives that aren't of personal interest. I do keep all the old archives (they're on tape right now), and was the list admin at the time of this incident. Your memory is accurate. The gentleman in question was asked by many in the general audience to tone down his "joys of bondage" posts :-) and concentrate on corsetry or historic costume. He did not and got flamed; flamed back (several times) and when asked by me to please cut it out and stay on topic he _chose_ to leave voluntarily, as he realized the list was more into *historic* stuff than corsets. He found a very nice audience on the alt.sex.bondage groups (so he later wrote and told me). :-) - -- Diane Barlow Close close@lunch.engr.sgi.com Yes, I'm back at lunch again! :-) ------------------------------ reksid@aol.com[14,287]CSuX:elizabethan tall hats - me too! Subject: Re: H-COST: Elizabethan tall hats - ME TOO! From: REKSID@aol.com Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 01:46:21 -0400 (EDT) - -Poster: REKSID@aol.com Try Hatcrafters at 215-623-2620, I don't have their catalog right in front of me but I do know that they carry just aboutevery kind of hat you might need. they are located at 20 North Springfield Road in Clifton Heights, PA 19018 They carry many historical hats as well as contemporary and novelty hats, in many colors at reasonable prices. They make each hat to order and are very prompt. They will also make every effort to meet your deadlines if they are tight. They are superb. Becky Kaufman ------------------------------ joycelyn falsken [21,288]CSuX:yet another silk question.... Subject: Re: H-COST: Yet another silk question.... From: Joycelyn Falsken Date: Sun, 08 Jun 1997 22:52:59 -0700 - -Poster: Joycelyn Falsken Joan, Being from Sacramento area, you are not too far away to go. Exotic Silk in Los Altos sells silk at wholesale prices to the public. They have a store and also do mail order. They always have an ad in the back of most sewing magazines. You can purchase a packet of around 50 swatches of the different weights and weaves for a small sum (or get one free at various seminars/conventions if you're lucky). Their toll free number in CA is (800)345-SILK, Outside CA (800) 845-SILK. - -- Joycelyn Falsken Joycelyn Designs 609 Laird Lane Lafayette, Ca 94549-1713 1-510-372-5451 jfalsken@ricochet.net ------------------------------ bronwens@aol.com[33,289]CSuX:pen-pal postings Subject: H-COST: Re: Pen-pal postings From: TEDDY Date: Mon, 09 Jun 1997 09:40:36 +0000 (GMT) - -Poster: TEDDY - ------- Forwarded Message Follows ------- Date sent: Fri, 06 Jun 1997 10:49:35 -0400 (EDT) In a message dated 97-06-05 09:31:17 EDT, you write: << > What is strange to me is that when I responded to his original query, he > asked if I was married and when I replied that I was...I never heard a word > from him again. It would seem that there is some criteria to being his > pen-pal. What does being married have to do with talking about costuming?? > > Bronwen I thought I should let everyone know that I received a number of responses from members who replied to this would-be-pen-pal. All of them stated that he asked personal questions without offering ANY info on himself. I think we should steer clear of this fellow. This is a last bastion of good, clean intellectual coversation and stimulating debates....I'd like to keep it that way:) Ta dahlings...I'm off to KC for the week...shopping, shopping, shopping... I also intend to look up that Hair Museum in Independence that was written about a few weeks ago. Bronwen "Now where did I but that checkbook??" ------------------------------ maggiros@aol.com[38,290]CSuX:elizabethan tall hats - me too! Subject: Re: H-COST: Elizabethan tall hats - ME TOO! From: MaggiRos@aol.com Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 04:44:42 -0400 (EDT) - -Poster: MaggiRos@aol.com In a message dated 97-06-09 01:48:26 EDT, REKSID@AOL.COM writes: > > Try Hatcrafters at 215-623-2620, I don't have their catalog right in front > of > me but I do know that they carry just aboutevery kind of hat you might need. > they are located at 20 North Springfield Road in Clifton Heights, PA 19018 > They carry many historical hats as well as contemporary and novelty hats, > in > many colors at reasonable prices. They make each hat to order and are very > prompt. They will also make every effort to meet your deadlines if they are > tight. They are superb. I'll bet this isn't a $15 hat, tho. Nor are the hats that I'm aware of. My friend Lloyd (who bought one of them some years ago from a source now defunct) has promised to look for the business card he picked up at the gun show in Pomona (CA) earlier this year. His is a tall (Hoss Cartwright) round crowned heavy felt (1/4" thick) hat, buff coloured, that originally had a 3-4 inch brim. To be Elizabethan, the brim needs to be cut back to about 2", which this hat takes very well. No wires, no other shaping, just the perfect thing for a military persona of a certain style and grace. you can get used to them. When/If I have more info, I'll pass it along. MaggiRos ------------------------------ maggiros@aol.com[13,291]CSuX:pen-pal postings Subject: Re: H-COST: Re: Pen-pal postings From: MaggiRos@aol.com Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 04:48:57 -0400 (EDT) - -Poster: MaggiRos@aol.com In a message dated 97-06-09 04:47:11 EDT, TEDDY1@mdx.ac.uk (TEDDY) writes: > This is a last bastion of good, clean > intellectual coversation and stimulating debates....I'd like to keep it that > way:) Positive thinking. Even when we get cranky, mainly this is true. ------------------------------ j.w.hubbard@sheffield.ac.uk (bill hubbard)[42,292]CSuX:13 cent buttons Subject: H-COST: Re:13 cent Buttons From: j.w.hubbard@sheffield.ac.uk (Bill Hubbard) Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 11:55:19 +0100 - -Poster: j.w.hubbard@sheffield.ac.uk (Bill Hubbard) Donna Wrote: >Both the Museum of London's _Textiles_ and >_Dress Accessories_ books say that buttons started being used in England by >the *early 13th Century*. >So, has anyone seen buttons anywhere on garments from 1250 - 1300? My >husband really wants to make pewter buttons for these outfits, and the books >say it would be appropriate, (and, in fact, show drawings of actual buttons >that are dated from that time) but don't say how or where they were used! There are English manuscript illustrations dated to the last two decades of the thirteenth century which show three buttons vertically at the throat of full-cut surcottes and herygoudes (the bulkier surcottes with gathered sleeve heads and hoods). No refs here at work. If you want, email me off the list and I will send them to you when I can. Otherwise, the button question does seem thorny, with dated deposits before other evidence for use. I believe that early on buttons were used as decorative (and non-functional) additions: I think there is a quote to this effect from the Museum of London Dress Accessories book that was mentioned. This could explain their metallic origins. If you want to be "authentic" (yes, I know - that term) then the evidence does show complete outfits *without* buttons, while using them takes you out on a slightly speculative limb. A basic problem with recreation - stick to the evidence of which you are certain and you will be "authentic" but you will probably miss out on the variety of what *was* used. But if you go for the "probable" or "possible" you base your work on opinions, with which someone will disagree and which could be completely wrong. Regards, Bill ------------------------------ nora cannon [9,293]CSuX:pomegranates -reply Subject: H-COST: pomegranates -Reply From: Nora Cannon Date: Mon, 09 Jun 1997 08:44:15 -0500 - -Poster: Nora Cannon I believe the pomegranate was also part of the required decoration for the vestments of the Jewish priesthood. At least 25 years ago my reserch for costuming a chancel drama based on the life of Jeremiah led me to that conclusion and to the application of the motif. ------------------------------ william b. birner [78,294]CSuX:h-cost mardi gras? Subject: H-COST: Re: H-COST Mardi Gras? From: "William B. Birner" Date: Mon, 09 Jun 1997 09:10:25 -0500 - -Poster: "William B. Birner" >Date: Mon, 09 Jun 1997 08:59:25 -0500 >To: annetteallen@juno.com (Annette M Allen) >From: "William B. Birner" >Subject: Re: H-COST Mardi Gras? >Cc: MultiplerecipientsoflistH-COSTUME@juno.com, H-COSTUME@BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU >In-Reply-To: <19970609.061742.3918.0.AnnetteAllen@juno.com> >References: <3.0.2.32.19970609042850.006c31fc@popd.ix.netcom.com> > >At 09:21 AM 6/9/97 EDT, Annette M Allen wrote: >>Kilts! Love 'em! I have several books on them, mostly >>clan books with sections on plaids, etc. One I picked up >>recently that may be what you are looking for is: >>"So You're Going to Wear the Kilt" by J. Charles >>Thompson, > >Thank you. It sounds quite helpful if well illustrated. At that price even a mistake would be ok. I have been meaning to call/write for an AY catalogue for some time now anyway so I will get to it for this project. For each year I select a theme and the usually add a few book strong or specializing on it to my library. But I needed a starter. The current interest in the real historical early Scotland is fascinating to me but really too early for what I will eventually adapt for this need. Like most folks I know, I would love to start my early professional life over again, not to make radical changes but to use what I know now at the later stages of it. Well, I would make a Few major changes. :-) > > > >3rd revised edition (1979, 1982, 1989). >>ISBN 0 86228 017 6. I obtained my copy for a list >>price of $11.00 from Alter Years. I don't seem to >>be able to lay my hands on their _extensive_ catalog >>right now, but they are on the net. >> >>This book has chapters on the bonnet, the crest badge, >>tartans, ladies in kilts, jackets, belts and waistcoats, >>shirt and tie, sporrans, footwear, dirks and skene dhus, >>the cromach, weapons, jewelry, medals and decorations, >> etc. >> >>Sounds like it might be what you are looking for... >> >>-Annette >>(Who thinks that only true men are manly enough to >>wear the kilt, but that all men are improved by it!) >>>Can you or anyone reccomend a single book which sets out the >>>traditional >>>uses of the tartans in costumes and their parts and accessories of the >>>clans for men and women? It will be a couple of years before we >>>execute >>>this but I'd like to do some research for idea from which to take off. >>>The >>>final product will not be authentic but the overall silhouette and >>>pieces' >>>look and flavor usually is. Plus the glitz. Wonder what a feathered >>>Tam >>>would look like :-) >>> >>> >>>Ciao, >>> Bill >>> >>>------------- >>>wbbirner@ix.netcom.com (William B. Birner) >>> >> >> Ciao, Bill - ------------- wbbirner@ix.netcom.com (William B. Birner) ------------------------------ otter [50,295]CSuX:linseed oil to treat edges Subject: Re: H-COST: Linseed oil to treat edges From: Otter Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 10:34:42 -0400 - -Poster: Otter Okay, as a professional artist, I gotta comment here -- *Many* materials used by artists can be hazardous to health (kids, don't try this as home, leave it to the pros, etc.), but the reason many, *not all*, artists use acrylics is due to *deadlines* since acrylics dry so quickly whereas oils can takes months, even years, to dry completely. I still work in oils when time, or a lack thereof, is not a consideration, and frankly, I prefer oils to acrylics, but, as we all have had drilled into our heads, time is money. And if you're really interested in sealing the edges of slashes, try clear *acrylic* nail polish, the kind you can find a your local drugstore -- it works like a charm, you have more control over it than you do with Fraycheck, and it's a heckuva lot cheaper. You can even serge through it. Just make sure you've got good ventilation because the fumes can make you very light-headed. Just lay the fabric you want to treat on top of a length of waxed paper, and apply. If you're treating natural fibers, you can later remove the acrylic polish with - ta dah! - polish remover. *However*, try that with synthetic fibers and you'll melt and/or dissolve the fabric. Okay, 'nuff said. Cheryl Mandus Angelfire Studios & The Merchant of Venice http://www.angel-mask.com csm@angel-mask.com > Linseed oil is dangerous to your health... it is used by artists who > paint in oil. Many went got sick because of it.. That is why acrylics > are used so much now instead ofoil.. be careful > > ~!~ R.L. Shep ------------------------------ asia reva poppers [84,296]CSuX:elizabethan tall-crown felt hats Subject: Re: H-COST: Elizabethan tall-crown felt hats From: Asia Reva Poppers Date: Mon, 09 Jun 1997 10:50:15 -0400 - -Poster: Asia Reva Poppers A bunch of folks posted or emailed me asking that I share any info about the hats in question that I may have received privately. Aside from the sources publicly posted to this list, the following suggestions were given via email by Angela--thanks, Angela! I haven't had a chance yet to follow-up on any of these suggestions, but am delighted to have them for reference in preparation for the day I do. Thanks again, everyone! Angela emailed me the following list: >I have a wonderful book called the Costumers Handbook that I heard about here >on line. I obtained several sources for hats through them. There is a >company called Theatre House Inc in Covington KY which has theatrical hats: >(606) 431-2414. > >Also: Display & Costume Supply, 11201 Roosevelt Way NE,.Seattle, WA 98125, >(206) 362-4810, FAX (206) 368-6870,free 80 page catalog,phone orders are $50 >minimum. > >California Millinery Supply Co >721 South Spring St. >Los Angeles, CA 90014 >(213) 622-8746 >FAX (231) 622-0438 > >Enhancements >PO Box 8604 >Anaheim, CA 92812-0604 >FAX (714) 638-4545 >Contact: mary LaVenture > >The Hat/Cap Exchange >PO Box 377 >Bettereton MD 21610-0377 >(410) 348-2244 >Contact: Jnae Haentze >100 different hats in stock, catalog $5 >mail and phone orders only >Mon - Fri 10:00 am to 5:00 pm (EST) > >Hatcrafters, Inc >20 N Springfield Rd >Clifton Heights, PA 19018 >Phone/FAX (610) 623-2620 >email: jscottjr@msn.com >Contact: Linda Haentz >(highly recommended in the Whole Costumers Guide) >they manufacture 300 hats > >Anyway, that's off the top of my head. Best of luck. > >angela Others have also suggested Amazon Drygoods, who, though they are IMHO a wonderful catalog all around and one of my favorite vices, sadly do not carry this particular obscure and, some would argue, unflattering item. :) Another suggestion was to try Civil War resources, which I have _begun_ to do, but given the vastness of the numbers of said suppliers, I have only just scratched the surface, and, alas, have not yet found my Silly Hat. I want one in burgundy or dark green, less because it's snazzy than because being a color rather than black increases the silliness level of the hat exponentially. It is far too easy to take upper-middle to upper-class Elizabethan costume too seriously, IMHO, and so some degree of silliness is called for. I don't like ruffs so large they impede one's ability to eat, and letting one's body linen hang out the gaps a la Breugel is only occasionally appropriate, especially for non-peasant/footsoldier types, so a _really_ tall hat with peacock feathers and/or ostritch tips it'll have to be. Thanks again, everyone, and please post any new leads to the list so that everyone who wants to join me in tall-hatted splendor can do so. Yrs, Asia ------------------------------ strauss@wcuvax1.wcu.edu[28,297]CSuX:what is going on? now 2 lists instead of one? Subject: H-COST: what is going on? Now 2 lists instead of one? From: STRAUSS@WCUVAX1.WCU.EDU Date: Mon, 09 Jun 1997 11:27:28 -0500 (EST) - -Poster: STRAUSS@WCUVAX1.WCU.EDU Recently, I got a bunch of NON digest messages. The gist of them was that the costume list (at Brown) was going to a different server, and I had to sign up at world.std.com. So I did. Now I am getting 2 separate digests: the "nice" digest, with table of contents, from brownvm, and the "other" digest, withOUT table of contents, from world.std. Can someone in the know, i.e., the 2 listowners, please explain to me what has happened? I really only want the brown digests, with Tables of contents. But I am also really curious as to what has occurred. Thanks, Bob Strauss ==================================================================== Bob Strauss "Duke of URL" Cataloger Hunter Library Western Carolina U. strauss@wcu.edu - -------------------------------------------------------------------- Confucious say: "One who puns in two languages not funny in either." Bob Strauss, 1997 ==================================================================== ------------------------------ mhamilto@pop.service.ohio-state.edu (marsha hamilton)[40,298]CSuX:frayed edges and ruffs Subject: H-COST: Re: Frayed Edges and ruffs From: mhamilto@pop.service.ohio-state.edu (Marsha Hamilton) Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 11:33:15 -0400 - -Poster: mhamilto@pop.service.ohio-state.edu (Marsha Hamilton) GUM ARABIC >And if you're really interested in sealing the edges of slashes, try..... Earlier we had a post about period treatment for frayed edges was to treat the fabric prior to slashing with gum arabic. Has anyone worked with gum arabic on fabric? Does one paint the area to be slashed or the whole length of fabric? Any artists out there used gum arabic? Do you mix it with other ingredients? Where is it available? Inquiring minds want to know...... RUFFS Ruffs (from the word ruffle) are a wheel shaped stiff collar worn by men and women in the late 16th and early 17th century. The stiff figure-8 fold of ruffs was gradually replaced by the "falling ruff or collar", something that looked like a ruff but fell in loose folds. The falling collar eventually evolved into various collars, cravats, and neckwear in the mid-1600s. The stiff ruff was out of fashion before the Victorian period (c. 1840s-1900) However, the lengthy Victorian period did have times in which nostalgic "period" costume elements were revived. This included "Cavalier" collars, fancy dress costumes that are Tudoresque, etc. I once saw a Worth wedding gown that was "Tudor" inspired. It had a small ruff and was meant to look "historical." But the formal stiff ruff was out of general fashion by (jump in here folks with your assessments) about 1620. (I'm not near any of my books so I'll happily begin a discussion thread here by not quoting sources!) Mrs. Marsha Hamilton ------------------------------ dunham patricia r [38,299]CSuX:ok a normal question to everyone!!! Subject: H-COST: Re: Ok A Normal Question To Everyone!!! From: DUNHAM Patricia R Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 08:49:00 -0700 - -Poster: DUNHAM Patricia R I expect Victorians only wore ruffs if they were playing costume party Elizabethans. To the best of my limited knowledge, in England, anyway, Elizabethan type ruffs gave way to Cavalier flat lace-trimmed collars (probably) early in the Stuart reigns, and were never revived in their Elizabethan form. Patsy ---------- | From: James Stubbings | To: Multiple recipients of list H-COSTUME | Subject: Re: Ok A Normal Question To Everyone!!! | Date: Monday, June 09, 1997 6:15AM | | Dear All | | Ok Hears a normal question for everyone | | Did the victorians were ruffs? when did theyu die out? | | Kind Regards | | James | stubbings@hotmail.com | | | | | | | --------------------------------------------------------- | Get Your *Web-Based* Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com | --------------------------------------------------------- | ------------------------------ otter [36,300]CSuX:frayed edges and ruffs Subject: Re: H-COST: Re: Frayed Edges and ruffs From: Otter Date: Mon, 09 Jun 1997 11:54:23 -0400 - -Poster: Otter Marsha Hamilton wrote: > > -Poster: mhamilto@pop.service.ohio-state.edu (Marsha Hamilton) > > GUM ARABIC > > >And if you're really interested in sealing the edges of slashes, try..... > > Earlier we had a post about period treatment for frayed edges was to treat > the fabric prior to slashing with gum arabic. Has anyone worked with gum > arabic on fabric? Does one paint the area to be slashed or the whole > length of fabric? Any artists out there used gum arabic? Do you mix it > with other ingredients? Where is it available? Inquiring minds want to > know...... > Mrs. Marsha Hamilton > Gum Arabic is used in water colors as a binder. It helps keep the pigments from sinking *into* the paper, and helps achieve crisp edges with the colors, increases transparency, et cetera. Don't know for sure, but I believe there are some artists' suppliers on the net from whom you can order gum arabic in its dry form. Hope this helps, but I've never put this stuff on clothing before, just heavy rag paper. Cheryl http://www.angel-mask.com csm@angel-mask.com ------------------------------ meredith hoffman [65,301]CSuX:pomegranates Subject: Re: H-COST: pomegranates From: Meredith Hoffman Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 10:57:16 -0400 - -Poster: Meredith Hoffman >I don't think anyone has mentioned it yet, so I'd like to point out >that Ottoman textiles use Pomegranates *a lot*. The use of this >fruit as an ornamental device dates back to the egyptians, at least. In Exodus 39:22-29, the making of the garments that the high priest would wear is described: "And he made the robe of the ephod of woven work, all of blue; and the hole of the robe in the midst thereof, as the hole of a coat of mail, with a binding round about the hole of it, that it should not be rent. And they made upon the skirts of the robe pomegranates of blue, and purple, and scarlet, and twined linen. And they made bells of pure gold, and put the bells between the pomegranates upon the skirts of the robe round about, between the pomegranates: a bell and a pomegranate, a bell and a pomegranate, upon the skirts of the robe round about, to minister in; as the Lord commanded Moses. "And they made the tunics of fine linen of woven work for Aaron, and for his sons, and the mitre of fine linen, and the goodly headtires of fine linen, and the linen breeches of fine twined linen, and the girdle of fine twined linen, and blue, and purple, and scarlet, the work of the weaver in colours; as the Lord commanded Moses." As a weaver and someone interested in the history of textiles, I think this is one of the most beautiful and stirring descriptions of clothing that I've ever read--it literally gives me the shivers to read it. And there's more. For those who are interested, starting at Exodus 35:4 through 39:43, immediately after the instructions to the Jewish people to keep the Sabbath, there is a marvelous long section that describes the fashioning of the ark of the covenant and the tabernacle, including the hangings and altar clothes, as well as the priests' garments. It's a wonderful section that describes all the woodwork and metalwork as well as the textiles--describes threads and fabrics and cords and skins; colors of dyes; the spinning, weaving, and working of of the cloth; and the fabrication of the textiles in detail. And we even know the name of the chief weaver--when so many in this telling are anonymous, it was clearly significant to name this skillful artisan: "Oholiab, the son of Ahisamach, of the tribe of Dan. Them [the builder/artisan, also honored in this section, was named Bezalel] hath He filled with wisdom of heart, to work all manner of workmanship, of the craftsman, and of the skilful workman, and of the weaver in colours, in blue, and in purple, in scarlet, and in fine linen, and of the weaver, even of them that do any workmanship, and of those that devise skilful works." - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Meredith Hoffman HumaniTech Ph: 508-746-4662 and 415-323-1559 53 Russell Street FAX: 508-746-4115 Plymouth MA 02360 email: humantch@tiac.net http://www.tiac.net/users/humantch Technical & Marketing Communications - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Writer, Weaver, Wonderer, Wanderer - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ cynthia becht [26,302]CSuX:lined slash-and-puff Subject: H-COST: Lined slash-and-puff From: Cynthia Becht Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 09:21:04 -0700 - -Poster: Cynthia Becht Okay, I heard from a couple interested folk, so I checked the portrait I had mentioned seeing in an art book at my mom's. The painting is Portrait of Lucrezia by Lorenzo Lotto, c. 1533. (The National Gallery, London). It's pictured on p. 398 of The Art of the Italian Renaissance... / edited by Rolf Tomer. Koeln (Cologne): Koenemann, 1995 (the oe's are umlauted o's if anyone is making an electronic search), 1995. Lucrezia's gown is a green and pumpkin (velvet?) number and the slashes on her sleeves are lined with tan (linen? - I didn't check too closely); the same tan fabric accents the sleeves elsewhere in strips. It's gorgeous. Hope that helps. Cynthia B. cbecht@popmail.lmu.edu ------------------------------ End of h-costume-digest V1 #6 ***************************** h-costume-digest-approval@world.std.com (h-costume-digest)[7,303]CSuX:h-costume-digest v1 #7 Subject: h-costume-digest V1 #7 From: h-costume-digest-approval@world.std.com (h-costume-digest) Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 12:24:01 -0400 (EDT) h-costume-digest Monday, June 9 1997 Volume 01 : Number 007 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- eliz@world.std.com (elizabeth lear)[35,304]CSuX:what is going on? now 2 lists instead of one? Subject: H-COST: Re: what is going on? Now 2 lists instead of one? From: eliz@world.std.com (Elizabeth Lear) Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 12:23:17 -0400 - -Poster: eliz@world.std.com (Elizabeth Lear) There are not supposed to be two lists. There is supposed to be one, moved FROM brownvm TO @world.std.com. The lists are up and running on world, but the brownvm addresses haven't been forwarded to world like they're supposed to be. Because the addresses aren't forwarding like they should, it would be much appreciated if everyone would voluntarily use ONLY the world.std.com address. Please correct the address in messages you reply to if it needs it. [16,305]CSuX:h-costume digest - 8 jun 1997 to 9 jun 1997 Subject: H-COSTUME Digest - 8 Jun 1997 to 9 Jun 1997 From: Automatic digest processor Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 00:01:16 -0400 There are 19 messages totalling 699 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Urm ?????? (2) 2. Some Answers (3) 3. H-COST Mardi Gras? (3) 4. Please Read (2) 5. Private vs. Public 6. Ok A Normal Question To Everyone!!! 7. what is going on? Now 2 lists instead of one? 8. Gay '90's Pictorial References (4) 9. Silk (2) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- james stubbings [33,306]CSuX:urm ?????? Subject: Urm ?????? From: James Stubbings Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 01:47:13 PDT Dear All After reading some of the comments you have put up, I must make a few points : 1. If I am doing something wrong then let me know im only trying to make friends with people. 2. If you dont like chatting to others why are you on the list? 3. If your going to talk to someone dont do it behind there back The people on this list dont seem to want to comunicate with others and accept people onto the list with similar interests. Hope you can now understand and as Margo said to me in her e-mail, welcome me into the party instead of licking me out the back door!!.. Regards James stubbings@hotmail.com --------------------------------------------------------- Get Your *Web-Based* Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com --------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ james stubbings [35,307]CSuX:some answers Subject: Re: Some Answers From: James Stubbings Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 01:57:38 PDT Ok then : no im not 'young' The reason i havent replyed to no one yet is because of one little thing called 'TIME' if you have around 100 e-mails coming in a day and only certain amounts of time to answer them, then the most important ones come first, you should surely no this? and also understand that people would like to know more about you before begining a friendship over the net maybe I offended you but iI dont think asking some of the same questions as you would get when going for a job etc would be offensive !!!. I hope you now understand Regards JStubbings stubbings@hotmail.com And I tried on a number of occasions to contact Ms Bunting but as she lives very close to me, but on all occasions she didnt want to know? If someone can tell me why then id love to know --------------------------------------------------------- Get Your *Web-Based* Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com --------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ maggie pierce [51,308]CSuX:urm ?????? Subject: Re: Urm ?????? From: Maggie Pierce Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 05:05:37 -0400 In a message dated 97-06-09 04:48:21 EDT, stubbings@HOTMAIL.COM (James Stubbings) writes: > > After reading some of the comments you have put up, I must make a few > points : > > 1. If I am doing something wrong then let me know im only trying to make > friends with people. Some of us have tried to point out that being on this list consitutes having about a hundred pen pals, many specifically interested your topics of choice. There are fewer non-threatening ways of meeting people than this. > > 2. If you dont like chatting to others why are you on the list? We are all in the midst of an on-going chat. What makes you think otherwise. > > 3. If your going to talk to someone dont do it behind there back If you're watching all the responses, none of them are behind your back. I've been wondering for a week where your response to all this might be. > > The people on this list dont seem to want to comunicate with others > and accept people onto the list with similar interests. Excuse me? You have yet to contribute to the conversation, except to ask about pen pals. I have pointed out that, as far as I'm concerned, all 100+ of us are pen pals... each other's, yours, and somebody's sister getting married in Germany. If we don't want to cummuinicate etc etc, why is my mailbox so full...? > > Hope you can now understand and as Margo said to me in her e-mail, > welcome me into the party instead of licking me out the back door!!.. I presume you mean kicking... Are we? Ask a question, make a point, add to the general conflagration... That's why we're all here. You asked about pen pals interested in Victorian and Elizabethan costume. Both are of major concern to many/most of us. Some people seem to think you were asking for intimate conversation, as opposed to group interaction. I walked in here a stranger, more shy than anyone credits, spoke up without apology as if I had lived here all my life (a character flaw, I realize), and have had a great time, learned a few things, taught a few things, and made a few friends. Jump in, or stop worrying about it. Just my groat's worth -- MaggiRos Mistress Mairghread-Ros FitzGarret of Desmond, O.L. (Caid) Mary Countess of Southampton ------------------------------ william b. birner [24,309]CSuX:h-cost mardi gras? Subject: Re: H-COST Mardi Gras? From: "William B. Birner" Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 04:28:50 -0500 At 10:35 PM 6/8/97 -0400, MaggiRos@aol.com wrote: >Maybe plaid trews? They fit like tights, without actually BEING tights. > I actually have thought of that. We used these when we did a production of Brig back in 1959. Can you or anyone reccomend a single book which sets out the traditional uses of the tartans in costumes and their parts and accessories of the clans for men and women? It will be a couple of years before we execute this but I'd like to do some research for idea from which to take off. The final product will not be authentic but the overall silhouette and pieces' look and flavor usually is. Plus the glitz. Wonder what a feathered Tam would look like :-) Ciao, Bill ------------- wbbirner@ix.netcom.com (William B. Birner) ------------------------------ james stubbings [29,310]CSuX:please read Subject: Re: Please Read From: James Stubbings Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 02:39:53 PDT Dear All Can we all just make peace, and use this multi billion pound, dollar international network for interesting conversation instead of slagging people off, i will now try and ask sensible questions and only ask for pe pals if I get attached to someone, surely theres enough nastyness in the world without more? Kind Regards James stubbings@hotmail.com P.s After coming back to work after the weekend I was amased to find that I was the ONLY topic of conversation on the list why are so many of you making judgements about me, I swear im not a weirdo in the middle of knoware sitting in the dark on the net!!!. honistly !!! --------------------------------------------------------- Get Your *Web-Based* Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com --------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ maggie pierce [15,311]CSuX:please read Subject: Re: Please Read From: Maggie Pierce Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 07:14:31 -0400 In a message dated 97-06-09 05:41:02 EDT, stubbings@HOTMAIL.COM (James Stubbings) writes: > > P.s After coming back to work after the weekend I was amased to find > that I was the ONLY topic of conversation on the list No. You were not. > > ------------------------------ j&b [21,312]CSuX:private vs. public Subject: Private vs. Public From: J&B Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 07:42:33 +0000 Dear List - After hearing many people complain complain that there are too many postings to this list to wade through, and after reading the "pen-pal" tempest in a teapot with dismay, may I make a humble suggestion? PLEASE, PLEASE choose carefully whether you wish to post a reply publically or privately. Much of this list is so useful and supportive of people's work, and I appreciate the information I've learned from others. If you must criticize someone else and can't do it in a friendly, supportive way. please post to them privately. Simply ask yourself "does the whole group need to hear this?" Your snide remarks really do leave a bad taste in other people's mouths as they scan through the list. Eliminating the "hot air" is the best way I can think of to deflate the size of the mail. Thanks - Bob Skiba ------------------------------ gia gavino-gattshall [48,313]CSuX:some answers Subject: Re: Some Answers From: Gia Gavino-Gattshall Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 04:36:27 -0700 Asking a person if they are married.. Isn't that illegal for a prospective employer to ask, here in the USA? Is this illegal to ask anywhere else? Or what? I thought it was. And I really didn't think my marital status had anything to do with whether or not I'm interested in costuming; but I may be wrong... Gia Just a bit confused.... ---------- > From: James Stubbings > Ok then : > > no im not 'young' > > The reason i havent replyed to no one yet is because of one little thing > called 'TIME' if you have around 100 e-mails coming in a day and only > certain amounts of time to answer them, then the most important ones > come first, you should surely no this? and also understand that people > would like to know more about you before begining a friendship over the > net maybe I offended you but iI dont think asking some of the same > questions as you would get when going for a job etc would be offensive > !!!. > > I hope you now understand > > > Regards > > JStubbings > > stubbings@hotmail.com > > And I tried on a number of occasions to contact Ms Bunting but as she > lives very close to me, but on all occasions she didnt want to know? > > If someone can tell me why then id love to know > > > > --------------------------------------------------------- > Get Your *Web-Based* Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > --------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ maggie pierce [8,314]CSuX:some answers Subject: Re: Some Answers From: Maggie Pierce Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 07:45:23 -0400 This is just a mailing list, not a job application. Life expects you to protect your own privacy by just neglecting to reply. You do have to take some responsibility for yourself. MaggiRos ------------------------------ james stubbings [22,315]CSuX:ok a normal question to everyone!!! Subject: Re: Ok A Normal Question To Everyone!!! From: James Stubbings Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 06:15:10 PDT Dear All Ok Hears a normal question for everyone Did the victorians were ruffs? when did theyu die out? Kind Regards James stubbings@hotmail.com --------------------------------------------------------- Get Your *Web-Based* Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com --------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ annette m allen [44,316]CSuX:h-cost mardi gras? Subject: Re: H-COST Mardi Gras? From: Annette M Allen Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 09:21:09 EDT Kilts! Love 'em! I have several books on them, mostly clan books with sections on plaids, etc. One I picked up recently that may be what you are looking for is: "So You're Going to Wear the Kilt" by J. Charles Thompson, 3rd revised edition (1979, 1982, 1989). ISBN 0 86228 017 6. I obtained my copy for a list price of $11.00 from Alter Years. I don't seem to be able to lay my hands on their _extensive_ catalog right now, but they are on the net. This book has chapters on the bonnet, the crest badge, tartans, ladies in kilts, jackets, belts and waistcoats, shirt and tie, sporrans, footwear, dirks and skene dhus, the cromach, weapons, jewelry, medals and decorations, etc. Sounds like it might be what you are looking for... -Annette (Who thinks that only true men are manly enough to wear the kilt, but that all men are improved by it!) >Can you or anyone reccomend a single book which sets out the >traditional >uses of the tartans in costumes and their parts and accessories of the >clans for men and women? It will be a couple of years before we >execute >this but I'd like to do some research for idea from which to take off. >The >final product will not be authentic but the overall silhouette and >pieces' >look and flavor usually is. Plus the glitz. Wonder what a feathered >Tam >would look like :-) > > >Ciao, > Bill > >------------- >wbbirner@ix.netcom.com (William B. Birner) > ------------------------------ william b. birner [68,317]CSuX:h-cost mardi gras? Subject: Re: H-COST Mardi Gras? From: "William B. Birner" Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 08:59:25 -0500 At 09:21 AM 6/9/97 EDT, Annette M Allen wrote: >Kilts! Love 'em! I have several books on them, mostly >clan books with sections on plaids, etc. One I picked up >recently that may be what you are looking for is: >"So You're Going to Wear the Kilt" by J. Charles >Thompson, Thank you. It sounds quite helpful if well illustrated. At that price even a mistake would be ok. I have been meaning to call/write for an AY catalogue for some time now anyway so I will get to it for this project. For each year I select a theme and the usually add a few book strong or specializing on it to my library. But I needed a starter. The current interest in the real historical early Scotland is fascinating to me but really too early for what I will eventually adapt for this need. Like most folks I know, I would love to start my early professional life over again, not to make radical changes but to use what I know now at the later stages of it. Well, I would make a Few major changes. :-) 3rd revised edition (1979, 1982, 1989). >ISBN 0 86228 017 6. I obtained my copy for a list >price of $11.00 from Alter Years. I don't seem to >be able to lay my hands on their _extensive_ catalog >right now, but they are on the net. > >This book has chapters on the bonnet, the crest badge, >tartans, ladies in kilts, jackets, belts and waistcoats, >shirt and tie, sporrans, footwear, dirks and skene dhus, >the cromach, weapons, jewelry, medals and decorations, > etc. > >Sounds like it might be what you are looking for... > >-Annette >(Who thinks that only true men are manly enough to >wear the kilt, but that all men are improved by it!) >>Can you or anyone reccomend a single book which sets out the >>traditional >>uses of the tartans in costumes and their parts and accessories of the >>clans for men and women? It will be a couple of years before we >>execute >>this but I'd like to do some research for idea from which to take off. >>The >>final product will not be authentic but the overall silhouette and >>pieces' >>look and flavor usually is. Plus the glitz. Wonder what a feathered >>Tam >>would look like :-) >> >> >>Ciao, >> Bill >> >>------------- >>wbbirner@ix.netcom.com (William B. Birner) >> > > Ciao, Bill ------------- wbbirner@ix.netcom.com (William B. Birner) ------------------------------ strauss@wcuvax1.wcu.edu[26,318]CSuX:what is going on? now 2 lists instead of one? Subject: what is going on? Now 2 lists instead of one? From: STRAUSS@WCUVAX1.WCU.EDU Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 11:27:28 -0500 Recently, I got a bunch of NON digest messages. The gist of them was that the costume list (at Brown) was going to a different server, and I had to sign up at world.std.com. So I did. Now I am getting 2 separate digests: the "nice" digest, with table of contents, from brownvm, and the "other" digest, withOUT table of contents, from world.std. Can someone in the know, i.e., the 2 listowners, please explain to me what has happened? I really only want the brown digests, with Tables of contents. But I am also really curious as to what has occurred. Thanks, Bob Strauss ==================================================================== Bob Strauss "Duke of URL" Cataloger Hunter Library Western Carolina U. strauss@wcu.edu -------------------------------------------------------------------- Confucious say: "One who puns in two languages not funny in either." Bob Strauss, 1997 ==================================================================== ------------------------------ no name [16,319]CSuX:gay 90 s pictorial references Subject: Gay '90's Pictorial References From: No Name Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 13:10:05 -0400 Does anyone have suggestions on a good pictorial reference for the Gay '90s? I am costuming a mellodrama called "Curse You, Jack Dalton" and need some ideas for my characters. I've got a spanish temptress, an innocent yet beautiful housekeeper, a snobby elderly lady, the "villain" (capes go a long way, yes?) and the hero. Am having surgery in two days, so any help while I'm laid up would be appreciated. Reading materials and/or internet sites with pictures woudl be great. Thanks to all in advance. Angela ------------------------------ dawn hunt [111,320]CSuX:silk Subject: Re: Silk From: Dawn Hunt Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 13:21:14 -0400 Greetings, list: I received this information from a friend yesterday. I thought all of you might enjoy having it. Dawn Hunt Dear friends, Here is the new silk order list, written in a new way to limit the duplication of explanations. I have been asked to allow very small orders, but alas, I cannot for various reasons, but I hope to make this up to you by offering low prices! The most amazing thing about these are the colours. Silk really does take colour better than any synthetic or cotton I have ever seen. . . It is hard to explain how fantastic these colours are! Please feel free to cross post this to any lists you feel may have interest, as long as the list permits such posts! Print copies and send them to your friends off-line! Jewel Tone Light Silks These are lovely gown weight silks suitable for all manner of summer clothing, and for liners for all garments. It is soft with a high luster, much like a light satin. Colours: Jet(1a), Ruby(1b), Sapphire(1c), Emerald(1d), Amethyst(1e), 45" $6.00 per yard / 5 yard per colour minimum please. Summer Chemise and Shirt Silks The perfect weight for a breathable summer chemise. . . wonderful for Pennsic. This is what I order for my Elizabethan era shirts for wear under hot doublets now that summer is nigh. Colours: Natural White (2a) 36" $4.00 per yard. Light Silk Satin Wonderful for all your lined satin garments! Takes dye like no other fabric, natural or sythetic, and holds it. Also nice for lining your finest court garb, or even for undergarments for great occasions! Colours: Natural White (3a) 45" $7.00 per yard. Silk Gauze This is perfect for your veils and late period chest drapes. Too light for uncovered chemises (except for "special" occasions) but wonderful for false sleeves, etc. Colours: Natural White (4a) 36" $3.00 per yard. Jewel Toned Heavy Raw Silks This is your perfect all purpose heavy silk! It is a wonderful silk, with the natural silk slubs (planned imperfections) that mark finer silks. All the natural shine of silk without the gloss of rayon! Perfect for early period garb and outer garments of any period, and especially good for armor applications- I'm making fencing armor and my arming doublet out of this! Colours:Jet(5a), Ruby(5b), Sapphire(5c), Emerald(5d), Amethyst(5e), White(5f) 45" $5.00 per yard / 5 yard per colour minimum please. Embroidery Silk I am told this is exactly the right silk for period "Tapestry" style embroidery, at low prices! Colours: Natural White(6a), 45" $5.00 per yard / 5 yard minimum please. Jewel Tone Velvets I can now offer these lovely Rayon/Silk velvets, some of the finest single velvet (more like period velvets than modern double velvet) available, for a good price. Over 50 colors and styles, so if you want something special, please ask. . . 30 yard minimum for special orders. Colours: Ruby(7a), Sapphire(7b), Emerald(7c), 45" $16.00 per yard / 10 yard minimum please. Cloth of Gold This is the real, modern descendant of period Cloth of Gold! Metal fibers woven into tightly twisted silk yarn matrix-- 80% metal, 20% silk, and Heavy! Because of the nature of this cloth, I can offer no advice (or promises) as to wash or care. Colours: Metallic "Gold"(8a) $10.00 per yard / 5 yard minimum please. Heavy Duchess Satin This is the worlds finest silk satin! Beautiful sheen, better colours than any synthetic! Stiff enough to "stand" like satin does in late period paintings! Colours: Cream(9a), Black(9b), Red(9c), Gold(9d) $15.00 per yard / 5 yard minimum please. Winter Chemise Silk This is a lovely light flowing silk with a twill weave that holds in heat when you want it, while wicking away moisture when you don't! Great for stiffer linings! Colours: Natural White (10a) 36" $4.00 per yard. If you don't see what you want, and want at least 15 yards, please ask, as I currently have about the same selection of silks as my local fabric stores have of cottons. . . Thousands of fabrics, styles, and colours! Ask about our new Hemp, Silk/wool blends, and Ramie (just like flax at a much lower cost!) if you are interested in these fabrics, and if you have a source for other period fabrics at wholesale, let me know about it so I can add it to my line! Merchants interested in retailing my silks, or pre- made drawstring purses, sarongs, pants, scarves, handkerchiefs, etc. please e-mail with your tax number and I'll send you wholesale prices right away! ORDERING INFORMATION Ordering will be done different this time, due to problems last time. To order please mail your Mundane Name and Address, E-mail Address, Your Order, and Your Payment to: Brian Michael Hathaway 1106 Columbia Ave. #4 Ft. Wayne, IN 46805 ------------------------------ gray hunter [6,321]CSuX:gay 90 s pictorial references Subject: Re: Gay '90's Pictorial References From: Gray Hunter Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 14:52:31 -0400 Try any book w/ drawings by Charles Danna Gibson. His work is sketchy but very accurate....& beautiful. Why can't I draw like that?! Also paintings by Sargent....more wonderful stuff only in color. ------------------------------ william b. birner [11,322]CSuX:gay 90 s pictorial references Subject: Re: Gay '90's Pictorial References From: "William B. Birner" Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 14:59:54 -0500 At 02:52 PM 6/9/97 -0400, Gray Hunter wrote: >Try any book w/ drawings by Charles Danna Gibson. His work is sketchy but >very accurate....& beautiful. Why can't I draw like that?! Also paintings by >Sargent....more wonderful stuff only in color. > Using a search tool on the web will bring up some "Gibson Girl" sites, as I recall. ------------------------------ morghana@aol.com[13,323]CSuX:silk Subject: Re: Silk From: Morghana@AOL.COM Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 19:16:22 -0400 Okay folks, I've seen this circulating on various lists, but I'm curious as to whether anyone has actually ordered from this gentleman and what their experience is. While his prices are certainly reasonable, I'm looking for those who might vouch for his delivery times and what sort of quality the silk actually is. Thanks in advance for any information anyone can provide! ~Morghana ------------------------------ jane spies [42,324]CSuX:gay 90 s pictorial references Subject: Re: Gay '90's Pictorial References From: Jane Spies Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 19:36:10 -0400 Hello everyone, Angela wrote: Does anyone have suggestions on a good pictorial reference for the Gay '90s? I am costuming a mellodrama called "Curse You, Jack Dalton" and need some ideas for my characters. I've got a spanish temptress, an innocent yet beautiful housekeeper, a snobby elderly lady, the "villain" (capes go a long way, yes?) and the hero. Am having surgery in two days, so any help while I'm laid up would be appreciated. Reading materials and/or internet sites with pictures woudl be great. Thanks to all in advance. Angela>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ********************************************* Has anyone seen the following book? I just mentioned it on another listserve, but maybe it would be helpful for Angela's costuming.... *******American Victorian Costume in Early Photographs by Priscilla Harris Dalrymple. (1991, Dover). The author discusses fashion and hairstyles for each decade from the 1840s to the 1890s. Each image (daguerreotypes, tintypes, old photographs) shown has comments about the clothing worn -- She shows women's, men's, and children's clothing. This is an excellent book. If you want to date your old family photographs by looking at the clothing and hairstyles, this book can help. Jane Spies Producer-The Antique and Collectible Jewelry Video Series http://www.antiqnet.com/jewelry ------------------------------ End of H-COSTUME Digest - 8 Jun 1997 to 9 Jun 1997 ************************************************** h-costume-digest-approval@world.std.com (h-costume-digest)[31,325]CSuX:h-costume-digest v1 #8 Subject: h-costume-digest V1 #8 From: h-costume-digest-approval@world.std.com (h-costume-digest) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 05:43:54 -0400 (EDT) h-costume-digest Tuesday, June 10 1997 Volume 01 : Number 008 In this issue: H-COST: jewish vestments? pomegranate? whoa! Re: H-COST: Re: Vict. ruffs? Re: H-COST: jewish vestments? pomegranate? whoa! Re: H-COST: jewish vestments? pomegranate? whoa! Re: H-COST: pomegranates Re: H-COST: jewish vestments? pomegranate? whoa! H-COST: Staylace guy. Paris. Re: H-COST: jewish vestments? pomegranate? whoa! Re: H-COST: jewish vestments? pomegranate? whoa! Re: H-COST: pomegranates H-COST: Fwd: Silk H-COST: Aging fabric Re: H-COST: Aging fabric H-COST: Re: Urm ?????? H-COST: cleaning mold-smelling fur? Re: H-COST: cleaning mold-smelling fur? Re: H-COST: cleaning mold-smelling fur? H-COST: R&K Sutlery Co. Re: H-COST: Lined slash-and-puff Re: H-COST: Re: Frayed Edges and ruffs Re: H-COST: Re: Frayed Edges and ruffs H-COST: Paris. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- babs@funhouse.com (babs woods)[54,326]CSuX:jewish vestments? pomegranate? whoa! Subject: H-COST: jewish vestments? pomegranate? whoa! From: babs@funhouse.com (Babs Woods) Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 12:48:17 -0400 - -Poster: babs@funhouse.com (Babs Woods) Everyone, Errm. Excuse me. I don't often post to this list but this one comment from Nora Cannon really caught my eye. The reason is that I have been doing genealogy for some time (fruitlessly, as is sometimes par for the course), and was contacted by a cousin I hadn't known of previously. He has provided me with a staggering wealth of information, including a photo of my grandfather's aunt. I am promised a copy of a picture of his mother (!) if I can wangle it out of a French cousin I'd known nothing of previously. In French. Which I don't yet speak. Anyway, I will be staring more closely at both the cloth of which my grandfather's grandfather's (you read that correctly) vestments(?) are made if I can tell from the xerox of the photo. It was taken in Poland around the 1910s to 1920s, and is of a Chassidic Rabbi. As far as I can tell he's in pretty much full dress, although not with prayer shawl and so on. I would guess just the everyday dress of an ordained Rabbi. What should I look for in this photo that would not otherwise be so obvious (we don't practice, so I wouldn't know what I'm seeing immediately)? Maybe someone can tell me what those clothes would be likely to be made from and a little about why, even if I can't make them out in the xerox? It's an all black outfit, whatever the cloth is. There is some debate between my cousin and I about whether or not an ordained Chassidic Rabbi of the time would have been photographed, but I asked a friend who is Conservative and was told as long as it's not on the Sabbath and he didn't object, it was fine. Anyone know which is correct? Since lifeways influence and are reflected in habits of dress for a given period, place, gender, occupation, etc., I doubt this is so off-topic in the end. Maybe someone can later help me explain just how my grandfather's mother's habits of dress fit in (or more likely divurged) from the norms of her time, circle, and station? I am told she dressed in a manner reflective of her eccentricity, and maybe if my cousin can wangle a xerox of that photo out of our cousin on his trip to Paris this month, I can pour over it and ask the list that much sooner about it. (I hope this sparks a new thread.) Thanking folks in advance, -babs - -- "Excuse me while I dance a little jig of despair." ------------------------------ joycelyn falsken [38,327]CSuX:vict. ruffs? Subject: Re: H-COST: Re: Vict. ruffs? From: Joycelyn Falsken Date: Mon, 09 Jun 1997 10:26:59 -0700 - -Poster: Joycelyn Falsken DUNHAM Patricia R wrote: > Elizabethan type ruffs gave way to Cavalier flat lace-trimmed collars > (probably) early in the Stuart reigns, and were never revived in their > Elizabethan form. > On checking N Bradfield's book _Costume in Detail; 1730-1930_ I've confirmed a few vague memories of seeing ruff-like accessories worn by women in the very early 19th cent.and prior. Page 42, date of 1765, shows a ruched ribbon neckband. There are other few examples of pleated ribbons and plain ribbons worn in the same manner with the Georgian styles. After the empire gown became popular, accessories NB calls neck frills are shown, see pg. 83 for a double neck frill 1799-1800. Pg. 84 shows a sketch of a "muslin ruff". In the later dates, she shows "frilled tuckers", pp. 91 (1806-09), 114 (1820-30), plus a few more. On p. 102, she shows a neck frill detail (basically a double hemmed strip of fabric gathered into a double ruffle by a tape in a casing down the lenthwise center.) Past about 1830, there are no ruffs or neck frills shown. The styles then have higher necklines and falling collars are used for accent. The time period _prior_ to 1840 and the invention of the caged crinoline (1856) and that full style is generally referred to as the Romantic Era. The Victorian Era is referred to as the time when Victoria was queen in England (1837 - 1901). Costume-wise IMO, victorian style equates with bell-shaped skirts up through the 2nd bustle period, mid- 1880's. Any neck accessories worn in this time period were usually black velvet ribbons. (See Tissot's paintings.) - -- Joycelyn jfalsken@ricochet.net ------------------------------ judy gerjuoy [81,328]CSuX:jewish vestments? pomegranate? whoa! Subject: Re: H-COST: jewish vestments? pomegranate? whoa! From: Judy Gerjuoy Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 13:40:17 -0400 (EDT) - -Poster: Judy Gerjuoy On Mon, 9 Jun 1997, Babs Woods wrote: > Anyway, I will be staring more closely at both the cloth of which my > grandfather's grandfather's (you read that correctly) vestments(?) are made > if I can tell from the xerox of the photo. It was taken in Poland around > the 1910s to 1920s, and is of a Chassidic Rabbi. As far as I can tell > he's in pretty much full dress, although not with prayer shawl and so on. > I would guess just the everyday dress of an ordained Rabbi. What should I > look for in this photo that would not otherwise be so obvious (we don't > practice, so I wouldn't know what I'm seeing immediately)? Maybe someone > can tell me what those clothes would be likely to be made from and a little > about why, even if I can't make them out in the xerox? It's an all black > outfit, whatever the cloth is. OK, a couple of things. First, the cloth would be made from whatever was "typical"in Poland of that time period *except* that it would not use a blend of wool and linen. There is a biblical prohibition against that (which orthodox Jews even today follow). Second, it would probably not show in a photo, though it might, there would be a undergarment worn over the top part of the body. It is a retangular piece of cloth which goes down in waist lenght, the sides are open and there is a whole cut for the head to go through. On each of the four corners there is some string which is knotted in a special way. This is a Jewish ritual garment that orthodox Jewish men wear. Other details taht you probably can't tell from the picture - not only would he have a beard, but he would have long sidelocks - peyes is the term which may or may not be wound around his ears. It is possible that for Sabbath and Holiday wear he would have a large brimmed hat called a strimel. Prayer shawls would be used only while praying - and then not all the time, it would depend upon the time of day and some other factors. > There is some debate between my cousin and I about whether or not an > ordained Chassidic Rabbi of the time would have been photographed, but I > asked a friend who is Conservative and was told as long as it's not on the > Sabbath and he didn't object, it was fine. Anyone know which is correct? There are no religious reasons not to be photographed - as long as it isn't the Sabbath or a holy day. If you want to get a better idea as to what Chassidic Jews wore then, I would suggest visiting (not on the Sabbath or a Jewish Holiday) either the Chasidic communities in the NYC area or in Israel. A lot of the dress has not been changed since then. Failing that, there are some good books out on the subject of Chassidim which have pictures. You need to see the clothes in real life to pick up subtle details - for instance the formal overrobe is often made from a material with a black on black brocade. > Since lifeways influence and are reflected in habits of dress for a given > period, place, gender, occupation, etc., I doubt this is so off-topic in > the end. Maybe someone can later help me explain just how my grandfather's > mother's habits of dress fit in (or more likely divurged) from the norms > of her time, circle, and station? I am told she dressed in a manner > reflective of her eccentricity, and maybe if my cousin can wangle a xerox > of that photo out of our cousin on his trip to Paris this month, I can pour > over it and ask the list that much sooner about it. If you can describe what she did (and more importantly didn't) wear, I should be able to help. Judy/Jaelle jaelle@access.digex.net If the world were merely seductive, that would be easy. If it were merely challenging, that would be no problem. But I arise in the morning torn between a desire to improve the world, and a desire to enjoy the world. This makes it hard to plan the day. - E. B. White ------------------------------ william b. birner [13,329]CSuX:jewish vestments? pomegranate? whoa! Subject: Re: H-COST: jewish vestments? pomegranate? whoa! From: "William B. Birner" Date: Mon, 09 Jun 1997 13:19:15 -0500 - -Poster: "William B. Birner" At 01:40 PM 6/9/97 -0400, Judy Gerjuoy wrote: > >There are no religious reasons not to be photographed - as long as it >isn't the Sabbath or a holy day. Some of the orthodox sects have believed that it would be a making of a "graven image".and therefore forbidden. ------------------------------ albertcat@aol.com[17,330]CSuX:pomegranates Subject: Re: H-COST: pomegranates From: AlbertCat@aol.com Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 14:46:02 -0400 (EDT) - -Poster: AlbertCat@aol.com In a message dated 97-06-09 12:24:04 EDT, humantch@tiac.net (Meredith Hoffman) writes: << I think this is one of the most beautiful and stirring descriptions of clothing that I've ever read--it literally gives me the shivers to read it. >> Well, with God as the costume designer & Moses as the wardrobe supervisor I think I might shiver too! Wonderful stuff, I must admit. ------------------------------ judy gerjuoy [31,331]CSuX:jewish vestments? pomegranate? whoa! Subject: Re: H-COST: jewish vestments? pomegranate? whoa! From: Judy Gerjuoy Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 15:25:33 -0400 (EDT) - -Poster: Judy Gerjuoy On Mon, 9 Jun 1997, William B. Birner wrote: > -Poster: "William B. Birner" > > At 01:40 PM 6/9/97 -0400, Judy Gerjuoy wrote: > > > >There are no religious reasons not to be photographed - as long as it > >isn't the Sabbath or a holy day. > > Some of the orthodox sects have believed that it would be a making of a > "graven image".and therefore forbidden. Really? Not to the best of my knowledge - and I lived pretty much as a Chassdic Jew for about 7 years - and studied their history as well. Judy/Jaelle jaelle@access.digex.net If the world were merely seductive, that would be easy. If it were merely challenging, that would be no problem. But I arise in the morning torn between a desire to improve the world, and a desire to enjoy the world. This makes it hard to plan the day. - E. B. White ------------------------------ gail decamp [41,332]CSuX:staylace guy. paris. Subject: H-COST: Staylace guy. Paris. From: Gail DeCamp Date: Mon, 9 Jun 97 12:40:15 -0000 - -Poster: Gail DeCamp Morghana et al, I remember the staylace guy too. You're right, he could have participated in a much lower-profile way, but he didn't; he posted some stuff that made me feel as though I needed to wipe the slime off my screen after reading it. People with those kinds of interests don't generally bother me, either, but in this case I felt like he was using our postings to get his rocks off. Ick. I wasn't on the digest option at the time, so I solved the problem by deleting his mail, unread, when it arrived, and deleting any thread that seemed to evolve from his mail. Now for a costume related topic: I'm discussing a trip to Paris with a friend; what kind of costume-related things could I find to do there? Thanks Gail >He replied to me, quite politely, that that wasn't his interest, and >explained that his society was basically "into" making, wearing and deriving >*pleasure* from staylaced women. > >Was he flamed off the list? IMHO, yes. Was it deserved? I'm not sure it >was. However, the gentleman could have chosen a far lower-profile stance >than he chose and participated without raising hackles and outcries. The >choice was his. His interest in the erotic side of corsetry kind of >surprised me at first (mainly because I didn't expect to see it on a historic >costuming list, but there aren't many sorts of behavior that bother me, so I >just shrugged it off and wished him well in his pursuits. ------------------------------ william b. birner [25,333]CSuX:jewish vestments? pomegranate? whoa! Subject: Re: H-COST: jewish vestments? pomegranate? whoa! From: "William B. Birner" Date: Mon, 09 Jun 1997 14:58:00 -0500 - -Poster: "William B. Birner" At 03:25 PM 6/9/97 -0400, Judy Gerjuoy wrote: >> Some of the orthodox sects have believed that it would be a making of a >> "graven image".and therefore forbidden. > >Really? Not to the best of my knowledge - and I lived pretty much as a >Chassdic Jew for about 7 years - and studied their history as well. Well, when I was a child 50 years or so ago, in Brooklyn, some old orthodx, non-Chassidim men told me that their Reb "in the old country" had so instructed them. Come to think of it, my conservative Rabbi at that time, while not so holding himself, also so instructed us as to the old world and differences. Never having practiced orthodoxy I cannot personally verify it. But there was a lot more conservative practice of Judaism than just the Chassidic and mystical movements. However I don't think that further discussion of religious practices does much here and the photographic element won't do much for costuming. Well, the photographic will but the avoidance of it certainly won't. :-) ------------------------------ judy gerjuoy [37,334]CSuX:jewish vestments? pomegranate? whoa! Subject: Re: H-COST: jewish vestments? pomegranate? whoa! From: Judy Gerjuoy Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 17:46:01 -0400 (EDT) - -Poster: Judy Gerjuoy On Mon, 9 Jun 1997, William B. Birner wrote: > -Poster: "William B. Birner" > > At 03:25 PM 6/9/97 -0400, Judy Gerjuoy wrote: > >> Some of the orthodox sects have believed that it would be a making of a > >> "graven image".and therefore forbidden. > > > >Really? Not to the best of my knowledge - and I lived pretty much as a > >Chassdic Jew for about 7 years - and studied their history as well. > > Well, when I was a child 50 years or so ago, in Brooklyn, some old orthodx, > non-Chassidim men told me that their Reb "in the old country" had so > instructed them. Come to think of it, my conservative Rabbi at that time, > while not so holding himself, also so instructed us as to the old world and > differences. Never having practiced orthodoxy I cannot personally verify > it. But there was a lot more conservative practice of Judaism than just the > Chassidic and mystical movements. However I don't think that further > discussion of religious practices does much here and the photographic > element won't do much for costuming. Well, it is certainly possible that there were people who didn't let themselves be photographed - and used the "graven image" as the reason. But, it was probably the exception, not the rule. Judy/Jaelle jaelle@access.digex.net If the world were merely seductive, that would be easy. If it were merely challenging, that would be no problem. But I arise in the morning torn between a desire to improve the world, and a desire to enjoy the world. This makes it hard to plan the day. - E. B. White ------------------------------ don & carolyn richardson [24,335]CSuX:pomegranates Subject: Re: H-COST: pomegranates From: Don & Carolyn Richardson Date: Mon, 09 Jun 1997 15:39:33 -0700 - -Poster: Don & Carolyn Richardson Meredith Hoffman wrote: > "And he made the robe of the ephod of woven work, all of blue; and the hole > of the robe in the midst thereof, as the hole of a coat of mail, with a > binding round about the hole of it, that it should not be rent. And they > made upon the skirts of the robe pomegranates of blue, and purple, and > scarlet, and twined linen. Can't say I've ever seen *blue* pomegranates in the natural world, at least not when we used to have a tree ;-) but the description of the robes sounds wonderful. And I have to disagree about eating them, Susan - I think they're a PITA to eat. All seeds and very bitter inedible flesh. But the liquer made from them is wonderful (is it grenadine? Can't remember.). My parents used to let most of them rot because we had such a bad fruit fly problem (which Hurricane Iwa solved for us by blowing over the tree). Carolyn ------------------------------ morghana@aol.com[152,336]CSuX:silk Subject: H-COST: Fwd: Silk From: Morghana@aol.com Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 19:22:00 -0400 (EDT) - -Poster: Morghana@aol.com I sent my first query to the old address at Brown... my apologies to anyone who sees this twice.... BUT.... does anyone have any experience with ordering from this gentleman? How is the quality? What sort of delivery time were you getting? Would you order again? How would you assess price vs quality of the silk? The prices tempted me well, but before I mail off a check to a person unknown to me, I'm trying to get a feel for what I'm likely to recieve. Anyone with firsthand information/experience, please let me know. Send it to me privately, if you don't wish to bother the list with it. Many thanks, ~Morghana - --------------------- Forwarded message: From: Swordmom@AOL.COM (Dawn Hunt) Sender: H-COSTUME@BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (Historic Costume List) Reply-to: Swordmom@AOL.COM To: H-COSTUME@BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (Multiple recipients of list H-COSTUME) Greetings, list: I received this information from a friend yesterday. I thought all of you might enjoy having it. Dawn Hunt Dear friends, Here is the new silk order list, written in a new way to limit the duplication of explanations. I have been asked to allow very small orders, but alas, I cannot for various reasons, but I hope to make this up to you by offering low prices! The most amazing thing about these are the colours. Silk really does take colour better than any synthetic or cotton I have ever seen. . . It is hard to explain how fantastic these colours are! Please feel free to cross post this to any lists you feel may have interest, as long as the list permits such posts! Print copies and send them to your friends off-line! Jewel Tone Light Silks These are lovely gown weight silks suitable for all manner of summer clothing, and for liners for all garments. It is soft with a high luster, much like a light satin. Colours: Jet(1a), Ruby(1b), Sapphire(1c), Emerald(1d), Amethyst(1e), 45" $6.00 per yard / 5 yard per colour minimum please. Summer Chemise and Shirt Silks The perfect weight for a breathable summer chemise. . . wonderful for Pennsic. This is what I order for my Elizabethan era shirts for wear under hot doublets now that summer is nigh. Colours: Natural White (2a) 36" $4.00 per yard. Light Silk Satin Wonderful for all your lined satin garments! Takes dye like no other fabric, natural or sythetic, and holds it. Also nice for lining your finest court garb, or even for undergarments for great occasions! Colours: Natural White (3a) 45" $7.00 per yard. Silk Gauze This is perfect for your veils and late period chest drapes. Too light for uncovered chemises (except for "special" occasions) but wonderful for false sleeves, etc. Colours: Natural White (4a) 36" $3.00 per yard. Jewel Toned Heavy Raw Silks This is your perfect all purpose heavy silk! It is a wonderful silk, with the natural silk slubs (planned imperfections) that mark finer silks. All the natural shine of silk without the gloss of rayon! Perfect for early period garb and outer garments of any period, and especially good for armor applications- I'm making fencing armor and my arming doublet out of this! Colours:Jet(5a), Ruby(5b), Sapphire(5c), Emerald(5d), Amethyst(5e), White(5f) 45" $5.00 per yard / 5 yard per colour minimum please. Embroidery Silk I am told this is exactly the right silk for period "Tapestry" style embroidery, at low prices! Colours: Natural White(6a), 45" $5.00 per yard / 5 yard minimum please. Jewel Tone Velvets I can now offer these lovely Rayon/Silk velvets, some of the finest single velvet (more like period velvets than modern double velvet) available, for a good price. Over 50 colors and styles, so if you want something special, please ask. . . 30 yard minimum for special orders. Colours: Ruby(7a), Sapphire(7b), Emerald(7c), 45" $16.00 per yard / 10 yard minimum please. Cloth of Gold This is the real, modern descendant of period Cloth of Gold! Metal fibers woven into tightly twisted silk yarn matrix-- 80% metal, 20% silk, and Heavy! Because of the nature of this cloth, I can offer no advice (or promises) as to wash or care. Colours: Metallic "Gold"(8a) $10.00 per yard / 5 yard minimum please. Heavy Duchess Satin This is the worlds finest silk satin! Beautiful sheen, better colours than any synthetic! Stiff enough to "stand" like satin does in late period paintings! Colours: Cream(9a), Black(9b), Red(9c), Gold(9d) $15.00 per yard / 5 yard minimum please. Winter Chemise Silk This is a lovely light flowing silk with a twill weave that holds in heat when you want it, while wicking away moisture when you don't! Great for stiffer linings! Colours: Natural White (10a) 36" $4.00 per yard. If you don't see what you want, and want at least 15 yards, please ask, as I currently have about the same selection of silks as my local fabric stores have of cottons. . . Thousands of fabrics, styles, and colours! Ask about our new Hemp, Silk/wool blends, and Ramie (just like flax at a much lower cost!) if you are interested in these fabrics, and if you have a source for other period fabrics at wholesale, let me know about it so I can add it to my line! Merchants interested in retailing my silks, or pre- made drawstring purses, sarongs, pants, scarves, handkerchiefs, etc. please e-mail with your tax number and I'll send you wholesale prices right away! ORDERING INFORMATION Ordering will be done different this time, due to problems last time. To order please mail your Mundane Name and Address, E-mail Address, Your Order, and Your Payment to: Brian Michael Hathaway 1106 Columbia Ave. #4 Ft. Wayne, IN 46805 ------------------------------ c&c shirk [13,337]CSuX:aging fabric Subject: H-COST: Aging fabric From: C&C Shirk Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 19:36:16 -0500 (CDT) - -Poster: C&C Shirk Does anyone know if chiffon can be tea-dyed? I am putting brand new sleeves on an old Victorian wedding dress and it is just ever so slightly off-white now. The only fabric I could find is a slightly blue-white. How strong do I make the tea? How long to leave in? Am I out of my mind? Uh, don't answer that last one! Carol ------------------------------ pelikan [14,338]CSuX:aging fabric Subject: Re: H-COST: Aging fabric From: Pelikan Date: Mon, 9 Jun 97 18:30:54 -0700 - -Poster: Pelikan Carol, Is it silk chiffon or a synthetic? Silk will take well to being tea dyed and the length of time it takes to reach the color you need will depend on how deep the color is. A synthetic will take longer to dye. I suggest that you experiment with a small swatch of the material to determine the length of time it needs to be dyed. Nadine Graham Pelikan haggis@sirius.com ------------------------------ lea e harp tuley [64,339]CSuX:urm ?????? Subject: H-COST: Re: Urm ?????? From: lea e harp tuley Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 19:50:23 -0700 - -Poster: lea e harp tuley At 01:47 AM 6/9/97 PDT, you wrote: >Dear All > >After reading some of the comments you have put up, I must make a few >points : > >1. If I am doing something wrong then let me know im only trying to make >friends with people. okay. here it is. you have requested pen-pals, but apparently aren't interested in married women who want to talk historic costumes. this probably means you're wasting your time (& consequently ours). >2. If you dont like chatting to others why are you on the list? > ah, but we *do* like chatting to others. ask us about Edwardian sleeves & we'll chat up a storm. wanna know about hats? we can talk hats & feathers & veils & ribbons. wanna talk about anything other than historic costume? that's not what the list is for. if you want friends, then allow friendships to grow - don't demand them. >3. If your going to talk to someone dont do it behind there back nice expectation, but totally unrealistic. for one thing, if you're talking *to* someone, you can't do it behind their back & for another, if you're talking *about* someone, of *course* you do it behind their back. & believe me, the combination of needles, thread, pins & conversation in a sewing circle is *invariably* absolutely scandalous. that's why you either want to be there, or never *ever* find out what they said while you weren't there. it's a life lesson & you'll be happy if you learn it now. you really will. it's just human nature. > >The people on this list dont seem to want to comunicate with others >and accept people onto the list with similar interests. oh, i dunno. how interested *are* you in Elizabethan buttons & the cut of a collar? > >Hope you can now understand and as Margo said to me in her e-mail, >welcome me into the party instead of licking me out the back door!!.. > is that a typo or are your hidden wishes sneaking out? terribly freudian, either way, don't you think? sincerely lea bob aka Cat Hastings, Countess of Huntingdon (CaRPFN) & HL Sinead Lauren Aithene Armagh ( collectively pronounced "Liran") in the SCA... "Some days you open the paper and it's kind of like finding Fidel Castro in the refrigerator, smoking a cigar. Hard to know what to think. For instance, when the lead story is that fourteen Dallas Cowboy Cheerleaders have resigned because they believe the team's new owner is trying to make them into sex objects. Says I to myself, "No doo-doo?" (That's the George Bush influence). Molly Ivins, in "Molly Ivins Can't Say That, Can She?" ------------------------------ kklocko@shrsys.hslc.org[23,340]CSuX:cleaning mold-smelling fur? Subject: H-COST: cleaning mold-smelling fur? From: kklocko@SHRSYS.HSLC.ORG Date: Mon, 09 Jun 1997 22:54:14 -0400 (EDT) - -Poster: kklocko@SHRSYS.HSLC.ORG A question for the list: I recently acquired a friend's fur cloak sewn from thrift-store furs. My problem is this: before it came to me, it was stored in a garbage bag in a basement and now smells strongly of mold. Unfortunately, I discovered when I tried it on, that I am _VERY_ allergic to the mold that has apparently gotten onto the furs. 15 minutes of exposure, and I get laid up with a sinus headache for the rest of the day. Does anyone know anything about cleaning old furs? I tried airing it out, but that didn't seem to help that much. Plus, my apt. is small enough that it's hard to get far enough away from it. Right now, I have it hanging in a sealed closet because I don't know what else to do with it! Thanks in advance for any help! --Kathy Klocko (kklocko@shrsys.hslc.org) ------------------------------ don & carolyn richardson [31,341]CSuX:cleaning mold-smelling fur? Subject: Re: H-COST: cleaning mold-smelling fur? From: Don & Carolyn Richardson Date: Mon, 09 Jun 1997 20:33:20 -0700 - -Poster: Don & Carolyn Richardson kklocko@SHRSYS.HSLC.ORG wrote: > > -Poster: kklocko@SHRSYS.HSLC.ORG > > A question for the list: > > I recently acquired a friend's fur cloak sewn from thrift-store furs. > Does anyone know anything about cleaning old furs? I tried airing it Having bought quite a few furs from thrift stores myself (everything from mink capelets to a beaver cloak to a chinchilla stole), I'd suggest taking it to a professional furrier (look in the yellow pages under Furrier - they usually offer storage and cleaning in addition to sales), at least for an opinion on whether or not you *can* get the mold smell out and whether or not the fur will be saveable if it is cleaned. Mold won't do a fur any good so do it soon or you'll have a skin lined cloak instead. I have no clue how much it will cost you to get it cleaned, but I'm sure it would be well worth the money. If it is saveable, and you don't want to spend the money to store it professionally after having it cleaned, I recommend hanging it in the closet with a clean white sheet over it, fur side out. The fur needs to breath so don't put it in a plastic garment bag. And of course, if you can afford it, cold storage is best, with a furrier. Carolyn ------------------------------ joan m jurancich [32,342]CSuX:cleaning mold-smelling fur? Subject: Re: H-COST: cleaning mold-smelling fur? From: Joan M Jurancich Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 21:08:30 -0700 - -Poster: Joan M Jurancich At 10:54 PM 6/9/97 -0400, kklocko@SHRSYS.HSLC.ORG wrote: >-Poster: kklocko@SHRSYS.HSLC.ORG > >A question for the list: > >I recently acquired a friend's fur cloak sewn from thrift-store furs. My >problem is this: before it came to me, it was stored in a garbage bag in >a basement and now smells strongly of mold. [snip] > >Does anyone know anything about cleaning old furs? I tried airing it out, >but that didn't seem to help that much. [snip] >Thanks in advance for any help! > --Kathy Klocko (kklocko@shrsys.hslc.org) > I would recommend that you take it to a dry cleaner that can handle furs (be sure to ask for _fur_ dry cleaning, not regular dry cleaning). Another option is to find a furrier and have it cleaned. Either one may be costly (I don't have a fur cloak :( , so I don't know the costs offhand); I hope that someone on the list will have more specific information. Good luck, Joan Jurancich aka Lady Dorothy (Hastings) Devereux [RPFN] joanj@quiknet.com ------------------------------ m311@aol.com[12,343]CSuX:r&k sutlery co. Subject: H-COST: R&K Sutlery Co. From: M311@aol.com Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 01:00:26 -0400 (EDT) - -Poster: M311@aol.com Has anyone heard of the R&K Sutlery Co. in Lincoln, Illinois? There was a writeup in the local paper the otherday. I don't recall ever hearing about them before. They sell Civil War clothing and acc. They sell ready made clothes and patterns. Has anyone made any of the patterns? How are they for directions, price and accuracy? And anything else you can add. Kelly Albrecht m311@aol.com ------------------------------ sara j. davitt [21,344]CSuX:lined slash-and-puff Subject: Re: H-COST: Lined slash-and-puff From: "Sara J. Davitt" Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 00:16:30 -0500 (CDT) - -Poster: "Sara J. Davitt" more lined rennaisance. Portrait of a Lady, Lorenzo Lotto (1533) viewed on pp 89 of Cultural atlas of the rennaisance. her sleeves are lined with fur, a short grayish pile, and it seems as if the lining continues down the front of a split skirt. I would also think that the fur might be in the poufy top half of the sleeves, becasue of the way they are handled.. but not the bodice.... this is definately a winter garment... as well as a dress I plan to make someday (I look very much like her.. :-) Take Care, Sarahj ------------------------------ sara j. davitt [17,345]CSuX:frayed edges and ruffs Subject: Re: H-COST: Re: Frayed Edges and ruffs From: "Sara J. Davitt" Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 00:33:16 -0500 (CDT) - -Poster: "Sara J. Davitt" > > > Gum Arabic is used in water colors as a binder. > It helps keep the pigments from sinking *into* the paper, and > helps achieve crisp edges with the colors, increases transparency, > et cetera. Don't know for sure, but I believe there are some > artists' suppliers on the net from whom you can order gum arabic > in its dry form. > You got it!... it's neato stuff.... but you know. it's super pricey... check with your local printmakers/lithographers, bring a bottle, because they get it super cheap... not pure, but then.. you ARE sealing fabric, not making a archival objet 'd art. ------------------------------ sara j. davitt [18,346]CSuX:frayed edges and ruffs Subject: Re: H-COST: Re: Frayed Edges and ruffs From: "Sara J. Davitt" Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 00:33:16 -0500 (CDT) - -Poster: "Sara J. Davitt" > > > Gum Arabic is used in water colors as a binder. > It helps keep the pigments from sinking *into* the paper, and > helps achieve crisp edges with the colors, increases transparency, > et cetera. Don't know for sure, but I believe there are some > artists' suppliers on the net from whom you can order gum arabic > in its dry form. > You got it!... it's neato stuff.... but you know. it's super pricey... check with your local printmakers/lithographers, bring a bottle, because they get it super cheap... not pure, but then.. you ARE sealing fabric, not making a archival objet 'd art. ------------------------------ petrick/ghazli [63,347]CSuX:paris. Subject: H-COST: Paris. From: petrick/ghazli Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 11:49:33 +0100 - -Poster: petrick/ghazli For those coming Franceward, here are my first thoughts. Alright, first of all you've got two, not one but two historic clothing museums. Musie de la Mode et du Textile 107 rue de Rivoli, Metro Palais Royal, open 11-6 and Wednesday evenings till 10 o'clock. Closed Mondays and holidays Ph 01 44 55 57 50. 25ff entry: in two stories in a wing of the Louvre and newly reopened with a nice collection from the mid to late 18th c up to the (e-gads) 1980's. Nice lay out comparison of the insideof a 1950's Chanel suit (weighted chain and all) vs. the inside of a Dior New Look gown. Also the cut out for a gentleman's ancien regime suit. The Galliera Musee de la Mode et du Costume only open for special exhibits. much smaller. 10 avenue Pierre 1e de Serbie Metro Iina (eiffel tower area) open 10-5:40 closed Mon. tel 01 47 20 85 23 Don't forget the Musie du Moyen Age, thermes de Cluny. has a nice little section of liturgical vestments. There's a cardinal's stocking from the mid 14thC woven at Lucques (english?) in Italy. Armor too of course. I don't know when you're planning on coming but they've got a really sweet exposition going on right now concerning pilgrims badges from the 13th C (I can give details on this if anyone is interested that isn't headed this way anytime soon). And of course you've got the Moire details on the Lady and the Unicorn tapestries. 6 place Paul Painlevi Metro St. Michel or Cluny- La Sorbonne. (latin quarter) closed Tuesday and holidays. open 9:15-5:45 30ff (or 36 with expo) and 20 (or 26) ff on Sundays. Tel 01 53 73 78 00 There is an expostion on at the Galerie Colbert on Opera costume of this century until 26 july. 2 rue Vivienne-6 rue des Petits-Champs. Free entry. 12 to 6 excep Sun. Also, I'm not totally sure in this but it seems to me that the Opera Garnier (you know THE Opera) has a permanent collection of their costumes on display. Musie Carnavalet (museum of the history of Paris in the beautiful Marais area) will have an expostion of Nureyev with some of his costumes. 23 rue de Sivigni Mo St Paul? 10-5:40, closed Mon, 35ff , Tel 01 42 72 21 13. The Orsay has Art Nouveau jewelry and hair accesories. The Louvre has similar things liberally sprinkled about in its islamic, etruscan, roman and egyptian collections and perhaps in Objets d'art as well. There are tie pins and more right next to the first costume museum in the Musie des Arts Dicoratifs Don't forget flea markets. And don't forget me, who gives guided tours in English at the Sainte Chapelle. Not a costume in sight, but perfectly lovely, and I'd be so delighted to find you amongst my audience. Bon Voyage et ` bienttt! Vicki-Marie Petrick Universiti de la Sorbonne Paris ------------------------------ End of h-costume-digest V1 #8 ***************************** automatic digest processor [15,348]CSuX:h-costume digest - 9 jun 1997 to 10 jun 1997 Subject: H-COSTUME Digest - 9 Jun 1997 to 10 Jun 1997 From: Automatic digest processor Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 00:01:04 -0400 There are 12 messages totalling 745 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. German puff and slash 2. Macassar Oil and Germans (2) 3. Silks posting (2) 4. The Pen-Pal Guy 5. Any one up for "Romeo & Xena"??? (3) 6. HIST: 1750's brocade 7. Gay '90's Pictorial References 8. H-COST: 13th(?) C. Headdress Question ---------------------------------------------------------------------- dennis allen carr [17,349]CSuX:german puff and slash Subject: German puff and slash From: Dennis Allen Carr Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 18:00:13 PDT "Dave E." writes: > A question i hope u can answer. Im making a german puff and slash costume > and am having trouble with the slashes. I am using linen for the over > fabric which gets slashed and am having trouble with fraying. Any > suggestions on how to keep my slops, canions and sleeves from unraveling? Hem them? Dennis Allen Carr KE6ISF outlander!ke6isf@ccss.com Pursuant to US Code Title 47, Ch 5, Subch 2, _227, unsolicited commercial Email received at this address is subject to a US$500 download and archival fee. By Emailing such, you agree to these terms. ------------------------------ mrs c s yeldham [55,350]CSuX:macassar oil and germans Subject: Macassar Oil and Germans From: Mrs C S Yeldham Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 09:52:00 GMT Back from a lovely holiday in France (15th century re-enactment in Sedan), I have a couple of quick comments. About 10 years ago the Body Shop used to stock macassar oil (withdrawn after a couple of years, I don't know why). Out of curiosity I tried it and loved it. Wonderful for my very dry, curly hair, it's *very* oily and you only need to use a few drops but it gives a lovely gloss to the hair and made mine easier to handle and softer. I was very disappointed they stopped stocking it. BTW this macassar oil had a light fruity scent, pleasant but barely noticeable. If the hair dressing the Indian gentleman used was macassar oil, then some other scent must have been added. I have an apology to give to Julie Adams over a discussion we had a while ago about the German population in England in the late medieval/early Tudor period. I've been reading 'Fifteeth Century Attitudes; perceptions of society in late medieval England' ed Rosemary Horrox pub Cambridge University Press in 1994 ISBN 0 521 40483 5; a collection of essays and well worth a read. In the section on Urban Society by DM Palliser he discusses the numbers of foreigners in England. There was a tax instituted in 1440 so we have sporadic returns from then until 1484, the only national survey of immigrants from any European state at such an early time. Taking London, Westminster and the suburbs together there were about 2,200 (excluding married women) in 1441, most of them 'Dutch' - German (probably Hanseatic League) and Netherlanders; and about 3,000 men, women and children in 1501. Other towns also had significant colonies, Winchester's aliens were about 3% of the population in 1440. (this is in the context of a population size of somewhere around 2.5 million for England). Unfortunately he does not give any further reference source (tho' it might be worth looking out for his next publication!). So, there certainly were a much larger number of foreigners in England than I thought. It doesn't answer the question of whether they were permanent immigrants or temporary and to what extent they kept their 'normal' style of dress or changed to 'English' clothing or kept up with fashions back home. This book also answers another question which I had wondered about. By the Tudor period passports (or letters patent) signed by a local notable to allow people (especially the poor) to move around the country were well established (as were forgeries!). These were established by the Statute of Cambridge of 1388, part of a whole series of Statutes in the late 14th century which aimed at controlling the working poor, their wages and activities as a result of the Black Death and the 1381 Poll Tax revolt. Not precisely costume, but I thought you might find it interesting. Caroline "I may not be able to define 'historical' but I'll know it when I see it" (quote adapted from a discussion about an integrated transport system - don't ask, I'm a Radio 4 addict!) ------------------------------ mrs c s yeldham [12,351]CSuX:silks posting Subject: Silks posting From: Mrs C S Yeldham Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 11:10:00 GMT I would be interested in some info on the silk supplier, especially whether he supplies the UK and will accept credit card payment. I am particularly interested as I have an order for some very light weight silk gauze (for Elizabethan oversleeves) from Thai Silks outstanding for about a year now. They were very good with everything else, but I'm still waiting for that! Caroline ------------------------------ kelly a. rinne [11,352]CSuX:silks posting Subject: Re: Silks posting From: "Kelly A. Rinne" Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 07:47:26 -0500 Commentary on this thread : I can HIGHLY recommend Rupert,Gibbon & Spider in Healdsburg, CA as a supplier of silk - their prices are reasonable, they carry many odd sizes, also have a clearance listing in their catalog (which updates quarterly) where they have many funky widths/selections, they also carry a very complete line of dyes/resists/tools for batik, silkscreen, etc. Their prices can't be beat when it comes to bulk order. Kel ------------------------------ dennis allen carr [17,353]CSuX:the pen-pal guy Subject: The Pen-Pal Guy From: Dennis Allen Carr Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 17:38:11 PDT Broneske writes: > If you are reading this James, I suggest you check the newsgroups. I am = > sure there is a group for people who want to be pen-pals, and if you are = *snip* Check soc.penpals! Dennis Allen Carr KE6ISF outlander!ke6isf@ccss.com Pursuant to US Code Title 47, Ch 5, Subch 2, _227, unsolicited commercial Email received at this address is subject to a US$500 download and archival fee. By Emailing such, you agree to these terms. ------------------------------ kaoswarior@vcnet.com[92,354]CSuX:any one up for "romeo & xena"??? Subject: Any one up for "Romeo & Xena"??? From: KaosWarior@VCNET.COM Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 12:03:06 -0800 I know, not much to do with costumes, but hey! we're here for fun & comraderey in shared intrests right? so i'm strecthing it a bit ;-) so please enjoy! ;-) Romeo and Xena by Democratus (As Originally posted on the Hercules Netforum) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- The Royal Action Pack Shakespeare Company Presents: Romeo and Xena (Gabrielle enters as Chorus, bows. The audience applauds politely) Permit this yet-uncapitalized bard the Bard to show And with your pardon would have you know Of the tragic tale so oft-repeated Of a love unwise, but really heated Of two star-crossed lovers doughty Both too young, both too pouty -- (Xena sticks her head from offstage) May my words bring transportion And transport you sans delay To Verona, and our play! (Gabrielle exits, the curtains pull apart, revealing The Balcony Scene. Xena walks out onto the balcony. Iolaus sneaks into the orchard) It is the east, and Xena is the sun. Arise, fair sun, and kill the envious moon! IOLAUS:(sigh) It's just poetic license, Xena. I don't mean you should actually KILL someone ... (Awkward pause) She speaks, yet she says nothing: What of that? (Hercules enters, dressed as Romeo also) here, and you're breaking wind! (Marcus enters, dressed as Romeo) (Marcus shoves Iolaus, Herc tries to break it up) (Iolaus takes a poke at Marcus, Marcus elbows Herc, the fight begins to get noisy) And I'll no longer be a Warrior Princess. (yelling) WILL YOU GUYS CUT IT OUT!!!?? Hercules!! (Iolaus is now on Marcus' shoulders, pummeling him in typical fashion. Hercules grabs them both by the collar and holds them apart.) (All three saunter offstage shamefacedly) (The men are gone) (the curtains close, then open again. Xena strolls out onto the balcony as before. Gabrielle sneaks into the orchard.) (DARIUS enters in a Romeo costume. His 3 kids all cling to his legs.) (Gabrielle and Xena stare at him. He looks uncomfortable.) (Gabrielle smacks her forehead. Xena idly begins to carve up the setpiece with her sword.) CURTAIN ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ kaoswarior@vcnet.com[95,355]CSuX:any one up for "romeo & xena"??? Subject: Any one up for "Romeo & Xena"??? From: KaosWarior@VCNET.COM Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 12:03:06 -0800 I know, not much to do with costumes, but hey! we're here for fun & comraderey in shared intrests right? so i'm strecthing it a bit ;-) so please enjoy! ;-) Romeo and Xena by Democratus (As Originally posted on the Hercules Netforum) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- The Royal Action Pack Shakespeare Company Presents: Romeo and Xena (Gabrielle enters as Chorus, bows. The audience applauds politely) Permit this yet-uncapitalized bard the Bard to show And with your pardon would have you know Of the tragic tale so oft-repeated Of a love unwise, but really heated Of two star-crossed lovers doughty Both too young, both too pouty -- (Xena sticks her head from offstage) May my words bring transportion And transport you sans delay To Verona, and our play! (Gabrielle exits, the curtains pull apart, revealing The Balcony Scene. Xena walks out onto the balcony. Iolaus sneaks into the orchard) It is the east, and Xena is the sun. Arise, fair sun, and kill the envious moon! IOLAUS:(sigh) It's just poetic license, Xena. I don't mean you should actually KILL someone ... (Awkward pause) She speaks, yet she says nothing: What of that? (Hercules enters, dressed as Romeo also) here, and you're breaking wind! (Marcus enters, dressed as Romeo) (Marcus shoves Iolaus, Herc tries to break it up) (Iolaus takes a poke at Marcus, Marcus elbows Herc, the fight begins to get noisy) And I'll no longer be a Warrior Princess. (yelling) WILL YOU GUYS CUT IT OUT!!!?? Hercules!! (Iolaus is now on Marcus' shoulders, pummeling him in typical fashion. Hercules grabs them both by the collar and holds them apart.) (All three saunter offstage shamefacedly) (The men are gone) (the curtains close, then open again. Xena strolls out onto the balcony as before. Gabrielle sneaks into the orchard.) (DARIUS enters in a Romeo costume. His 3 kids all cling to his legs.) (Gabrielle and Xena stare at him. He looks uncomfortable.) (Gabrielle smacks her forehead. Xena idly begins to carve up the setpiece with her sword.) CURTAIN ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- with the message UNSUBSCRIBE F-COSTUME ------------------------------ elizabeth cimmiyotti [12,356]CSuX:hist: 1750 s brocade Subject: HIST: 1750's brocade From: Elizabeth Cimmiyotti Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 12:57:14 -0700 I am looking for 1750's style brocades. If any one has info on what books to look for I can start search fabric stores, but right now I don't have any clear pictures on what the patterns were. Thank you in advance Ula Brennasdottir ula@agora.rdrop.com Black Guard Mercenary Company Kingdom of AnTir ------------------------------ karen krebser [18,357]CSuX:any one up for "romeo & xena"??? Subject: Re: Any one up for "Romeo & Xena"??? From: Karen Krebser Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 13:10:05 -0700 <...Xena play snipped for space...> Isn't this list moderated? Just wondering... Karen Krebser ----- I saw the best minds of my generation destroyed by madness, starving hysterical naked dragging themselves through the negro streets at dawn looking for an angry fix angelheaded hipsters burning for the ancient heavenly connection to the starry dynamo in the machinery of night... krebser@erg.sri.com, karenk1558@aol.com http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1059 ------------------------------ jane spies(smtp:lark5000@aol.com)[57,358]CSuX:gay 90 s pictorial references Subject: Re: Gay '90's Pictorial References From: Jane Spies[SMTP:Lark5000@AOL.COM] Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 13:48:58 -0700 I have this book and it IS wonderful. A great source of real people, = wearing real clothes. I also have checked out a few daguerreotype books = from the library that have great pictures of real people and what they = wore....of course, these are usually too early for the 90's, but there = may be other books of photos from that time period. Joan Broneske ---------- Hello everyone, Angela wrote: Does anyone have suggestions on a good pictorial reference for the Gay = '90s? I am costuming a mellodrama called "Curse You, Jack Dalton" and need = some ideas for my characters. I've got a spanish temptress, an innocent yet beautiful housekeeper, a snobby elderly lady, the "villain" (capes go a = long way, yes?) and the hero. Am having surgery in two days, so any help while I'm laid up would be appreciated. Reading materials and/or internet sites with pictures = woudl be great. Thanks to all in advance. Angela>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ********************************************* Has anyone seen the following book? I just mentioned it on another listserve, but maybe it would be helpful for Angela's costuming.... *******American Victorian Costume in Early Photographs by Priscilla = Harris Dalrymple. (1991, Dover). The author discusses fashion and hairstyles for each decade from the = 1840s to the 1890s. Each image (daguerreotypes, tintypes, old photographs) shown = has comments about the clothing worn -- She shows women's, men's, and = children's clothing. This is an excellent book. If you want to date your old family = photographs by looking at the clothing and hairstyles, this book can help. Jane Spies Producer-The Antique and Collectible Jewelry Video Series http://www.antiqnet.com/jewelry ------------------------------ henk t jong [76,359]CSuX:13th(?) c. headdress question Subject: Re: H-COST: 13th(?) C. Headdress Question From: Henk 't Jong Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 18:15:47 +0200 Henk & Pauline 't Jong tScapreel Medieval Advisors Dordrecht, Netherlands Hi Amy, It sounds like you describe the fillet-barbette combination, typical for the more ladylike married types of the 13th century and the first quarter (and for some oldfashioned ladies up until the 1350's) of the 14th. What you describe as a snood of intersecting ribbons is probably the hair-net worn with it, in which the long plaits of these ladies were rolled up. In miniatures, which are very small, the net was drawn with fewer crossed lines than there were in reality. The chin band or 'barbette' (little beard) is a narrow version of the wimple and was pinned together on top of the head. Over this came the 'fillet' or headband, made out of stiffly starched linen or linen over parchment rim. The linen could indeed be pleated, or scalloped by the kind of embroidery (in natural linen threads) that results in the scalloping of an edge of cloth (I don't remember the tern for this). This combination was invariably made of fine, bleached linen, with a good strong texture. Don't ever use see-through stuff and never use coloured linen. Only the better kind of whores in Germany had yellow headdresses and some young and daring noble women imitated them just to shock their elders. You wear this with the loose cottes and surcottes of the period, sometimes combined with sleeveless surcotte or 'suckenie' as it was called in Germany and Holland. Use fresh, but not too bright colours and use a different colour for every gown. If you line things; use a different colour again. This goes together with the lined semi-circle cloak with strap or lace closure. Remember; you will look like a rich burgher's wife or minor noble woman, so don't wear a girdle on your surcottes. And purses are also not worn on the outside, where they can be seen. Low soft leather shoes go with this ensemble. The only jewellery you'll be able to wear are rings, a large rond or multi facetted brooch directly below the throat or a small round buckle-fibula for closing the cotte (which is visible above the surcotte) and jewelled clasps on the ends of the strap of your cloak. I can garantee you'll look a treat. Success, Henk ---------- > Van: Amy Wilson > Aan: H-Costume > Onderwerp: H-COST: 13th(?) C. Headdress Question > Datum: dinsdag 10 juni 1997 9:23 > > -Poster: Amy Wilson > > Hi everyone -- > > I'd like some help on constructing a headdress that I've seen in various > illuminations. I think it dates from the 13th C., but it could be > earlier/later. > > It appears to be a snood constructed of intersecting ribbons, worn with a > chin band and topped with a "crown" of pleated fabric. Can anyone give > me information on what this was called, tips on how to construct the > pieces, along with fabric suggestions, how to assemble and wear it, and what > type of dress is appropriate for wearing with it? > > Many thanks -- > Amy > (aka Catelin the Patient) > > ------------------------------ julie adams [20,360]CSuX:macassar oil and germans Subject: Re: Macassar Oil and Germans From: Julie Adams Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 21:02:24 -0700 >I have an apology to give to Julie Adams over a discussion we had a while >ago about the German population in England in the late medieval/early Tudor >period. I've been reading 'Fifteeth Century Attitudes; perceptions of >society in late medieval England' ed Rosemary Horrox pub Cambridge >University Press in 1994 ISBN 0 521 40483 5; a collection of essays and >well worth a read. Thanks and thanks for the great reference. I haven't seen that book yet. It sounds like a very interesting read. I think our earlier discussion had to do with whether the German and Dutch immigrants could have brought over blackwork embroidery. Did the essays mention anything about the exchange of crafts? Julie Adams ------------------------------ End of H-COSTUME Digest - 9 Jun 1997 to 10 Jun 1997 *************************************************** h-costume-digest-approval@world.std.com (h-costume-digest)[41,361]CSuX:h-costume-digest v1 #9 Subject: h-costume-digest V1 #9 From: h-costume-digest-approval@world.std.com (h-costume-digest) Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 19:36:52 -0400 (EDT) h-costume-digest Wednesday, June 11 1997 Volume 01 : Number 009 In this issue: H-COST: Re: Weighted Chains - my experience H-COST: 13th(?) C. Headdress Question Re: H-COST: Fwd: Silk H-COST: victorian ladies exploration garb H-COST: victorian female exploration garb Re: H-COST: cleaning mold-smelling fur? H-COST: Re: Silks posting H-COST: Re: Silk Re: H-COST: pomegranates Re: H-COST: 13th(?) C. Headdress Question H-COST: Re: Costume in Paris H-COST: Re: silk Re: H-COST: Paris. H-COST: more pomegranates Re: H-COST: Re: silk Re: H-COST: cleaning mold-smelling fur? Re: H-COST: more pomegranates H-COST: Re: Silks posting H-COST: R&K Sutlery Re: H-COST: R&K Sutlery Re: H-COST: R&K Sutlery H-COST: Re:13 cent headdress H-COST: restrictions on prostitutes (colors,etc.) Re: H-COST: Re: Silks posting - blackwork sleeves Re: H-COST: Re: Silk Re: H-COST: more pomegranates H-COST: Re: Romeo and Xena H-COST: RE: Xena Costume (seriously!) Re: H-COST: Re: Silks posting - blackwork sleeves Re: H-COST: Re: Silks posting - blackwork sleeves H-COST: Italian Renaissance Redux Re: H-COST: Lined slash-and-puff ---------------------------------------------------------------------- amy wilson [39,362]CSuX:weighted chains - my experience Subject: H-COST: Re: Weighted Chains - my experience From: Amy Wilson Date: 10 Jun 97 07:15:59 +0000 - -Poster: Amy Wilson - --====50515154545451505452===1 Hi everyone! I had written: >>The dress is made of bengaline, a light-to-medium weight fabric with tiny >>vertical "ridges" in it (fabric experts -- help me describe this >>better! :)). DJ had replied: >Also called faille. Woven with very fine and strong length threads and >wider width threads. (I can't keep the warp and woof straight) The ridges >should be horizontal for maximum fabric strength, but anything goes for >costuming. Well, that got me thinking, so I went upstairs and actually looked at the dress. The ridges ARE horizontal! Shows you I don't even know my own costumes. Heh heh. Thanks, DJ. :) - --====50515154545451505452===1 Hi everyone!

I had written:
>>The dress is made of bengaline, a light-to-medium weight fabric with tiny
>>vertical "ridges" in it (fabric experts - -- help me describe this
>>better! :)).

DJ had replied:
>Also called faille. Woven with very fine and strong length threads and
>wider width threads. (I can't keep the warp and woof straight) The ridges
>should be horizontal for maximum fabric strength, but anything goes for
>costuming.


Well, that got me thinking, so I went upstairs and actually looked at the dress. The ridges ARE horizontal! Shows you I don't even know my own costumes. Heh heh. Thanks, DJ. :) - --====50515154545451505452===1-- ------------------------------ amy wilson [21,363]CSuX:13th(?) c. headdress question Subject: H-COST: 13th(?) C. Headdress Question From: Amy Wilson Date: 10 Jun 97 07:23:26 +0000 - -Poster: Amy Wilson Hi everyone -- I'd like some help on constructing a headdress that I've seen in various illuminations. I think it dates from the 13th C., but it could be earlier/later. It appears to be a snood constructed of intersecting ribbons, worn with a chin band and topped with a "crown" of pleated fabric. Can anyone give me information on what this was called, tips on how to construct the pieces, along with fabric suggestions, how to assemble and wear it, and what type of dress is appropriate for wearing with it? Many thanks -- Amy (aka Catelin the Patient) ------------------------------ doris j. nash [33,364]CSuX:silk Subject: Re: H-COST: Fwd: Silk From: "Doris J. Nash" Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 10:21:04 -0500 - -Poster: "Doris J. Nash" At 07:22 PM 6/9/97 -0400, you wrote: >-Poster: Morghana@aol.com >BUT.... does anyone have any experience with ordering from this gentleman? > How is the quality? What sort of delivery time were you getting? Would >you order again? How would you assess price vs quality of the silk? > >The prices tempted me well, but before I mail off a check to a person unknown >to me, I'm trying to get a feel for what I'm likely to recieve. > >Anyone with firsthand information/experience, please let me know. Send it to >me privately, if you don't wish to bother the list with it. > >Many thanks, > >~Morghana Actually, I'd like to know also. I'm interested in ordering for my costume shop, so I'd also like to know if he will accept a university purchase order, but I guess I could go to "the horse's mouth" and contact him directly about that. But customer service is best discovered by asking customers, IMO. ;-) Thanks. Doris ===================== Doris Nash Costume Shop Supervisor, Iowa State University "...with ruffs and cuffs, and farthingales and things." - --Shakespeare, The Taming of the Shrew ------------------------------ klines@gbms01.uwgb.edu[21,365]CSuX:victorian ladies exploration garb Subject: H-COST: victorian ladies exploration garb From: KLINES@gbms01.uwgb.edu Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 09:52:18 -0500 (CDT) - -Poster: KLINES@gbms01.uwgb.edu i am doing research into what a victorian woman would wear to go on expedition in the jungle? i realize pith helmets, but regarding the length of skirts; were they actually to the ground, or a little revealing of the ankle [ohhh shocking]. thus far, i have only found the usual male livingstone and stanley. i am design- ing costumes for a production of eric overmeyer's, _on the verge_ and i am really there...[on the verge]. also any sources to consult for images would be appreciated, books, dissertations movies thank you susan please respond privately: klines@uwgb.edu suzasuza@aol.com ------------------------------ dopost@grunt.dejanews.com[48,366]CSuX:victorian female exploration garb Subject: H-COST: victorian female exploration garb From: dopost@grunt.dejanews.com Date: 97-06-10 01:45:14 EDT - -Poster: KLINES@gbms01.uwgb.edu [A reply is required to post your article. (If you did not request this, please do not reply to this email, instead read the instructions at the bottom of this note, and send any questions to postnews@dejanews.com).] You have requested that the following article be posted to Usenet via the Posting Service at Deja News. Your article is currently sitting in our spool waiting for you to authorize it by following the following instructions: TO POST YOUR ARTICLE PLEASE READ AND FOLLOW THESE INSTRUCTIONS: - --------------------------------------------------------------- - - You must reply to this email, including the ENTIRE text of this email in the reply. (It's okay if your email program inserts characters in the left hand column, e.g. '>', or whatever). The reply MUST be sent to: dopost@postnews.dejanews.com - - You must change the Subject: header of your reply to contain the article you wish to have posted). [The following string must not be changed/modified/wrapped/truncated.] TRANSID:115f50b43de50451e576934695a40aef8c4d45e348da =========================================================================== From: suzasuza@aol.com Subject: victorian female explorers Newsgroups: rec.crafts.textiles.needlework Message-Id: <865905734.12258@dejanews.com> Organization: Deja News Usenet Posting Service X-Article-Creation-Date: Tue Jun 10 01:22:14 1997 GMT X-Originating-IP-Addr: 152.163.213.156 (ww-tj30.proxy.aol.com) X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/2.0 (Compatible; AOL-IWENG 3.0; Win16) i am doing research into what a victorian woman would wear to go on expedition in the jungle? i realize pith helmets, but regarding the length of skirts; were they actually to the ground, or a little revealing of the ankle [ohhh shocking]. thus far, i have only found the usual male livingstone and stanley. i am design- ing costumes for a production of eric overmeyer's, _on the verge_ and i am really there...[on the verge]. thank you susan respond privately klines@uwgb.edu suzasuza@aol.com ------------------------------ frances grimble [42,367]CSuX:cleaning mold-smelling fur? Subject: Re: H-COST: cleaning mold-smelling fur? From: Frances Grimble Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 08:23:14 -0700 - -Poster: Frances Grimble kklocko@SHRSYS.HSLC.ORG wrote: > > -Poster: kklocko@SHRSYS.HSLC.ORG > > A question for the list: > > I recently acquired a friend's fur cloak sewn from thrift-store furs. My > problem is this: before it came to me, it was stored in a garbage bag in > a basement and now smells strongly of mold. Unfortunately, I discovered > when I tried it on, that I am _VERY_ allergic to the mold that has > apparently gotten onto the furs. 15 minutes of exposure, and I get laid > up with a sinus headache for the rest of the day. > > Does anyone know anything about cleaning old furs? I tried airing it out, > but that didn't seem to help that much. Plus, my apt. is small enough > that it's hard to get far enough away from it. Right now, I have it > hanging in a sealed closet because I don't know what else to do with it! > > Thanks in advance for any help! > --Kathy Klocko (kklocko@shrsys.hslc.org) > This fur needs a thorough cleaning--an airing won't help mold spores, nor would a surface cleaning since there is probably mold on the inside. I would suggest taking it to a professional furrier. If they say the mold can't be cleaned out, I personally would give up on the fur. Note that with vintage furs you may have additional problems such as tearing of the skin, which can only be mended up to a point--the furrier can advise you on that also. If they say the fur can be cleaned and restored well I would have them do it. Hope this helps. Fran Grimble Author of _After a Fashion: How to Reproduce, Restore, and Wear Vintage Styles_ and _The Edwardian Modiste: 85 Authentic Patterns with Fashion Plates, Instructions, and Period Sewing Techniques_ ------------------------------ doris j. nash [26,368]CSuX:silks posting Subject: H-COST: Re: Silks posting From: "Doris J. Nash" Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 10:33:52 -0500 - -Poster: "Doris J. Nash" At 07:47 AM 6/10/97 -0500, you wrote: >Commentary on this thread : >I can HIGHLY recommend Rupert,Gibbon & Spider in Healdsburg, CA as a >supplier of silk - their prices are reasonable, they carry many odd >sizes, also have a clearance listing in their catalog (which updates >quarterly) where they have many funky widths/selections, they also carry >a very complete line of dyes/resists/tools for batik, silkscreen, etc. >Their prices can't be beat when it comes to bulk order. >Kel > Kel, Do you have an address or phone number? I'm always on the lookout for inexpensive sources! Thanks, Doris ================ Doris Nash Costume Shop Supervisor, Iowa State University "...with ruffs and cuffs, and farthingales and things." - --Shakespeare, The Taming of the Shrew ------------------------------ susan fatemi [44,369]CSuX:silk Subject: H-COST: Re: Silk From: Susan Fatemi Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 07:52:55 -0700 - -Poster: Susan Fatemi Is there a phone# or e-mail address?? It would be helpful if he would do swatches. Prices certainly are good. Beat Thai Silks prices. Susan Fatemi susanf@eerc.berkeley.edu aka susanf@california.com > --------------------- > Forwarded message: > From: Swordmom@AOL.COM (Dawn Hunt) > Sender: H-COSTUME@BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (Historic Costume List) > Reply-to: Swordmom@AOL.COM > To: H-COSTUME@BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (Multiple recipients of list H-COSTUME) > Date: 97-06-09 13:32:45 EDT > > Greetings, list: > > I received this information from a friend yesterday. I thought all of you > might enjoy having it. > > Dawn Hunt > > Dear friends, > > Here is the new silk order list, written in a new way to limit the > duplication of explanations. > I have been asked to allow very small orders, but alas, I cannot for > various > reasons, but I hope to make this up to you by offering low prices! > The most amazing thing about these are the colours. Silk really does > take > colour better than any synthetic or cotton I have ever seen. . . It is hard > to explain how fantastic these colours are! > > Please feel free to cross post this to any lists you feel may have > interest, > as long as the list permits such posts! > ------------------------------ susan fatemi [24,370]CSuX:pomegranates Subject: Re: H-COST: pomegranates From: Susan Fatemi Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 07:57:07 -0700 - -Poster: Susan Fatemi Who'dda thunk there would be so much material on *pomegranates*. Now, I don't want to start a flame war, Carolyn :-) But in hot, dry So.Calif. and in Iran, I thought "granates" were great. We'd just eat the seeds, as kids, if the pulp got too much, we'd spit it out. The best thing to do is put them in a juicer (or have your maid do it as we did in Iran), and have the wonderful juice. Susan Fatemi > And I have to disagree about eating them, Susan - I think they're a PITA > to eat. All seeds and very bitter inedible flesh. But the liquer made > from them is wonderful (is it grenadine? Can't remember.). My parents > used to let most of them rot because we had such a bad fruit fly problem > (which Hurricane Iwa solved for us by blowing over the tree). > > Carolyn ------------------------------ kerri canepa [62,371]CSuX:13th(?) c. headdress question Subject: Re: H-COST: 13th(?) C. Headdress Question From: Kerri Canepa Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 08:44:07 -0800 (ADT) - -Poster: Kerri Canepa On 10 Jun 1997, Amy Wilson wrote: > -Poster: Amy Wilson > > Hi everyone -- > > I'd like some help on constructing a headdress that I've seen in various > illuminations. I think it dates from the 13th C., but it could be > earlier/later. > > It appears to be a snood constructed of intersecting ribbons, worn with a > chin band and topped with a "crown" of pleated fabric. Can anyone give > me information on what this was called, tips on how to construct the > pieces, along with fabric suggestions, how to assemble and wear it, and what > type of dress is appropriate for wearing with it? > The "crown" was called a tocque and to the best of my knowledge was either made of stiffened fabric (linen would be my guess) or fabric over a stiffened form. The shape was similar to a pie plate with the bottom removed although a similar headdress in England had a vertical band around the head instead of a flaired shape. The "snood" was actually a fine net, the good ones from silk, and some examples are shown in the HMSO book on textiles. Since I've not seen any illustrations of women with that headdress only partially on, my guess as to how it was arranged would be this: the hair was coiled up and placed in the net which may have covered the top of the head as well (I've never seen the top of someone's head so I'm not sure) or it could have been pinned to the back of the head. The chin band would probably be placed to go on top of the net and be pinned down to help keep the net from migrating. Then the tocque would go on top of both and may have been pinned to the chin band; I've worn the tocque pinned and unpinned. Sometimes it appears that there is a coif worn over the net and under the tocque instead of a chin band but then, I'm trying to decipher someone's artistic license. Tocques sometimes had covered tops and occasionally they appeared pleated or with curled edges. A friend came up with a creative way of pleating a tocque by pleating linen over a wired buckram form. Except for trying to figure out the amount of fabric to use, it actually worked rather well. As to what clothing to wear, I believe that headdress was popular in the late 13th c and disappeared by 1325 but I'm at work and all my books are at home so I can't say with any certainty. I believe that headdress was used, in some variation or other, in England, France, Spain, and Germany. I don't recall seeing examples of it in Italy. > Many thanks -- > Amy > (aka Catelin the Patient) > Hope this helps, Kerri > ------------------------------ barbara@math.tu-berlin.de (barbara maren winkler)[23,372]CSuX:costume in paris Subject: H-COST: Re: Costume in Paris From: barbara@math.tu-berlin.de (Barbara Maren Winkler) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 18:44:33 +0200 - -Poster: barbara@math.tu-berlin.de (Barbara Maren Winkler) >- -Poster: Gail DeCamp wrote >Now for a costume related topic: I'm discussing a trip to Paris with a >friend; >what kind of costume-related things could I find to do there? A few weeks or maybe months ago I listend to a report on the radio on the newly opened costume department of the Louvre. It was said to run over 3 storeys and be one of the finest costume exhibits in Europe. That was the time when I decided that now I have a reason to go to Paris. Has anyone on the list yet seen the museum and can comment? Greetings Barbara Maren - -- Barbara Maren Winkler barbara@math.tu-berlin.de ------------------------------ garys@headwaters.com (gary stephens)[23,373]CSuX:silk Subject: H-COST: Re: silk From: garys@headwaters.com (Gary Stephens) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 11:51:55 -0500 - -Poster: garys@headwaters.com (Gary Stephens) Dawn, you posted regarding a silk merchant in Indiana. Do you know if he sells out of country, (to Canada) has swatches available, and has an e-mail address? I'm very much interested. Lorina Stephens - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Gary/Lorina J. Stephens photographer/author of _Touring the Giant's Rib_ http://web.idirect.com/~canuck/stephens/stephen.html - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Five Rivers Chapmanry purveyors of quality hand-crafted cooperage garys@headwaters.com - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------ sara j. davitt [21,374]CSuX:paris. Subject: Re: H-COST: Paris. From: "Sara J. Davitt" Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 14:41:45 -0500 (CDT) - -Poster: "Sara J. Davitt" Reguarding the flea markets: Bring only what you need, and keep it in hand at all times... the flea markets are crowded and pretty easy places to get pickpocketed. (just a smidge of common sense, becasue I remember at least the Pt. D Cinglancourt marche was in a 'difficult part of town) and remember... Barter, Barter, Barter, and when you think the price has been reached... walk away, and watch it drop even more! :-) but make sure you know your french/francs, so that you don't hand over a 200 note, when you only needed to give 20.. (did that.. doh!) Bon Voyages! Sarahj ------------------------------ susan fatemi [18,375]CSuX:more pomegranates Subject: H-COST: more pomegranates From: Susan Fatemi Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 11:23:44 -0700 - -Poster: Susan Fatemi Eek! I just looked down at my skirt and realized there are pomegranates on it! Quelle coincidence! It's supposed to look like a Paisley/kashmir shawl pattern, but the colors are wrong. But the border is like a Roman/Renaissance garland. And right there, dancing around the hem of my skirt are pomegranates, grapes, figs(?) and what look suspiciously like eggplants. Gee, I've never seen eggplants used in textile designs before. Susan Fatemi Susan Fatemi ------------------------------ swordmom@aol.com[20,376]CSuX:silk Subject: Re: H-COST: Re: silk From: Swordmom@aol.com Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 16:59:26 -0400 (EDT) - -Poster: Swordmom@aol.com In a message dated 97-06-10 12:57:33 EDT, garys@headwaters.com (Gary Stephens) writes: << Dawn, you posted regarding a silk merchant in Indiana. Do you know if he sells out of country, (to Canada) has swatches available, and has an e-mail address? I'm very much interested. Lorina Stephens >> I haven't asked him, but I'm sure he would, Lorina. He has e-mail, but let me check with him before I post it here. I've also posted your message to him, so he may respond to you personally. Dawn ------------------------------ reksid@aol.com[19,377]CSuX:cleaning mold-smelling fur? Subject: Re: H-COST: cleaning mold-smelling fur? From: REKSID@aol.com Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 23:37:19 -0400 (EDT) - -Poster: REKSID@aol.com I have heard of cleaning the fur in question in a paper bag filled with corn meal. I have not done this myself and do not know what the actual results are but what I have been told is the following: 1. put corn meal and the fur in a paper bag. The bag needs to be big enough for the fur to tumble around in. Seal the bag with tape. 2. Set your dryer to air fluff (no heat) and tumble the fur for approximately 1/2 hour. The result is suppose to be the corn meal comes out filthy and the fur comes out clean. Good luck. Becky Kaufman ------------------------------ maggiros@aol.com[16,378]CSuX:more pomegranates Subject: Re: H-COST: more pomegranates From: MaggiRos@aol.com Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 00:17:30 -0400 (EDT) - -Poster: MaggiRos@aol.com In a message dated 97-06-10 21:56:51 EDT, susanf@eerc.berkeley.edu (Susan Fatemi) writes: > and what look suspiciously like > eggplants. Gee, I've never seen eggplants used in textile designs > before. > You don't suppose those are primitive paisleys, do you :) MaggiRos ------------------------------ lea e harp tuley [38,379]CSuX:silks posting Subject: H-COST: Re: Silks posting From: lea e harp tuley Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 22:23:40 -0700 - -Poster: lea e harp tuley >At 12:08 AM 6/11/97 -0400, you wrote: >>In a message dated 97-06-10 19:11:16 EDT, csy20688@GGR.CO.UK (Mrs C S >>Yeldham) writes: >> >>> >>> I am particularly interested as I have an order for some very light weight >>> silk gauze (for Elizabethan oversleeves) >> >>Just out of curiosity, why would you use very lightweight silk for >>oversleeves (sleeves to the gown, I presume)? >> >>MaggiRos >> betcha they're for the "protective" oversleeves that we see in that portrait of the (first, Catholic) Countess of Bath - the gauzy sleeves that cover the blackworked ones. lea bob wondering if the blackwork fairy will *ever* visit & bring me those sleeves... aka Cat Hastings, Countess of Huntingdon (CaRPFN) > "Some days you open the paper and it's kind of like finding Fidel Castro in the refrigerator, smoking a cigar. Hard to know what to think. For instance, when the lead story is that fourteen Dallas Cowboy Cheerleaders have resigned because they believe the team's new owner is trying to make them into sex objects. Says I to myself, "No doo-doo?" (That's the George Bush influence). Molly Ivins, in "Molly Ivins Can't Say That, Can She?" ------------------------------ tim allison [9,380]CSuX:r&k sutlery Subject: H-COST: R&K Sutlery From: Tim Allison Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 00:41:19 -0500 (CDT) - -Poster: Tim Allison Kelly, please share what you learn Carol Mitchell ------------------------------ m311@aol.com[21,381]CSuX:r&k sutlery Subject: Re: H-COST: R&K Sutlery From: M311@aol.com Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 02:45:44 -0400 (EDT) - -Poster: M311@aol.com I just grew up about 1 hour from where they are located and had never heard of them before. I only live 3 1/2 hours from them now. I don't remember them being on the list before but other companies that sell historic patterns and clothes have been mentioned. The article said that " the company, which started in 1987, is "probably the largest manufacturer of Civil War clothing n the country."" I just wondered if they are so big why no one had mentioned them before when questions came up of where to buy pre-made undergarments for Civil War era gowns and stuff for war reinactments. It said that they had 2 web pages. I just looked for them using Alta Vista. I found them. For some reason the paper didn't include them. I found on main page with lots of different catagories. It is http://www.sutlery.com/ I haven't read everything on the site but it looks like there is alot there. Kelly Albrecht m311@aol.com ------------------------------ m311@aol.com[12,382]CSuX:r&k sutlery Subject: Re: H-COST: R&K Sutlery From: M311@aol.com Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 02:51:45 -0400 (EDT) - -Poster: M311@aol.com Sorry but after I sent it I found the address of the other site. IT is as follows: http://www.ncweb.com/biz/blackhawk/randk.html Kelly Albrecht m311@aol.com ------------------------------ j.w.hubbard@sheffield.ac.uk (bill hubbard)[22,383]CSuX:13 cent headdress Subject: H-COST: Re:13 cent headdress From: j.w.hubbard@sheffield.ac.uk (Bill Hubbard) Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 11:46:25 +0100 - -Poster: j.w.hubbard@sheffield.ac.uk (Bill Hubbard) Henk 't Jong wrote: >Don't ever use see-through stuff and never use coloured >linen. Only the better kind of whores in Germany had yellow headdresses and >some young and daring noble women imitated them just to shock their elders. Have you got any ref.s for this? I have been trying to track down this association of yellow headdress and prostitution in the 13th cent and not found any period references. I have come across unsupported comments in costume books saying that yellow was an alternative colour for headdresses at the end of the thirteenth century, without mentioning whores. Now, there may be a different situation in Britain and the continent, but any info would be welcome. Regards, Bill ------------------------------ mary-gayle jany [29,384]CSuX:restrictions on prostitutes (colors,etc.) Subject: H-COST: restrictions on prostitutes (colors,etc.) From: "Mary-Gayle Jany" Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 08:57:05 -0500 - -Poster: "Mary-Gayle Jany" Bill asked: Have you got any ref.s for this? I have been trying to track down this association of yellow headdress and prostitution in the 13th cent Someone has finally asked a question that I can help answer! The following references not only have the information about colors, but also explain all the restrictions prostitutes were governed by. The references are fully documented from primary sources (laws and ordinances within various countries and cities). Bassermann, Lujo. _The Oldest Profession: A History of Prostitution_. trans. from German by James Cleugh. New York: Dorset Press, 1993. (ISBN: 0-88029-248-2) Goldberg, P. J. P. _Women, Work, and Life Cycle in a Medieval Economy: Women in York and Yorkshire c.1300-1520_. Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1992. Rossiaud, Jacques. _Medieval Prostitution_. trans. by Lydia G. Cochrane. New York: Basil Blackwell, Inc., 1988. (ISBN: 0-631-15141-9) Wiesner, Merry E. _Working Women in Renaissance Germany_. New Brunswick, Hope these help. Meg ------------------------------ karren schaeffer [13,385]CSuX:silks posting - blackwork sleeves Subject: Re: H-COST: Re: Silks posting - blackwork sleeves From: Karren Schaeffer Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 07:30:55 -0700 - -Poster: Karren Schaeffer >the gauzy sleeves that cover the blackwork ones < I have wanted to work those blackwork sleeves ever since I saw them. What a strange design feature to obscure several months worth of intricate stitching. Since blackwork is small and very sturdy, does anyone know of a reason why they may have added the extra filmy layer? Karren ------------------------------ swordmom@aol.com[23,386]CSuX:silk Subject: Re: H-COST: Re: Silk From: Swordmom@aol.com Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 10:52:32 -0400 (EDT) - -Poster: Swordmom@aol.com In a message dated 97-06-10 21:50:45 EDT, susanf@eerc.berkeley.edu (Susan Fatemi) writes: << Is there a phone# or e-mail address?? It would be helpful if he would do swatches. Prices certainly are good. Beat Thai Silks prices. Susan Fatemi susanf@eerc.berkeley.edu aka susanf@california.com >> Greetings, list: I have been in touch with Brian and he has given me permission to give out his e-mail address. It is Kymrii@aol.com. Hope this helps you all out. Smiles Dawn ------------------------------ r.l. shep [25,387]CSuX:more pomegranates Subject: Re: H-COST: more pomegranates From: "R.L. Shep" Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 07:23:23 -0800 - -Poster: "R.L. Shep" MaggiRos@aol.com wrote: > > -Poster: MaggiRos@aol.com > > In a message dated 97-06-10 21:56:51 EDT, susanf@eerc.berkeley.edu (Susan > Fatemi) writes: > > > and what look suspiciously like > > eggplants. Gee, I've never seen eggplants used in textile designs > > before. > > > > You don't suppose those are primitive paisleys, do you :) > > MaggiRos eggplants are often quoted by sources in India as the basis for the paisley design. ~!~ R.L. Shep ------------------------------ doris j. nash [27,388]CSuX:romeo and xena Subject: H-COST: Re: Romeo and Xena From: "Doris J. Nash" Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 10:25:58 -0500 - -Poster: "Doris J. Nash" At 10:16 AM 6/11/97 -0400, you wrote: >At the risk of starting too much off-topic discussion, flameage, or >whatever, I thought this was hilarious. It really made my day! :-) > >So, how would one costume this epic? It seems that parody versions of >authentic costumes would be in keeping with the comedic intent of the >piece. What kinds of historic costume in-jokes do folks envision for this? >I'm thinking either extremes in the details i.e. oversized sleeves, 3 foot >long points of shoe toes, etc or purposeful mis-matches of elements i.e. >the wrong foot wear, head gear, etc. > >Cate And of course, the non-Shakespeare-experienced actors would get all caught up in their costumes--tripping on hems and shoes, whipping looonngg sleeves into other actors' faces, etc. Ahh, slapstick! ;-) Doris ===================== Doris Nash Costume Shop Supervisor, Iowa State University "...with ruffs and cuffs, and farthingales and things." - --Shakespeare, The Taming of the Shrew ------------------------------ dunham patricia r [36,389]CSuX:xena costume (seriously!) Subject: H-COST: RE: Xena Costume (seriously!) From: DUNHAM Patricia R Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 11:38:00 -0700 - -Poster: DUNHAM Patricia R Well, first off, I'd say write to Alizaunde about the "tits-on-a-platter" corsets she loves to hate so much 8-) -- seems like a logical (over-)extension of X's wonder-bra... (And I'm sure she could describe how they're made to achieve their effect) (Find Deja-News archive site on Web, search by "Alizaunde" and you'll find her address; she's an east-coast SCA person ... I keep track of her posts because I LOVE her style, both what she says, and HOW she says it, 8-)) And hair extensions, probably (a la Ivanhoe comments) Patsy ---------- | From: Leslie Helms | To: Multiple recipients of list H-COSTUME | Subject: Xena Costume (seriously!) | Date: Wednesday, June 11, 1997 9:59AM | | Cate's question, and the Xena posts, come at an interesting time. I am | designing a Xena custume for a farcical event. Please, all you who have | musings on this dubious topic, feel free to write me! | | My goal is a costume that evokes the image but does so satirically, and | looks okay on a fairly chunky woman (5 foot 4, 165 pounds). | | Who better than we, to make fun of ourselves? | | Leslie | ------------------------------ margo anderson [23,390]CSuX:silks posting - blackwork sleeves Subject: Re: H-COST: Re: Silks posting - blackwork sleeves From: Margo Anderson Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 12:29:03 -0700 - -Poster: Margo Anderson >>the gauzy sleeves that cover the blackwork ones < > >I have wanted to work those blackwork sleeves ever since I saw them. >What a strange design feature to obscure several months worth of >intricate stitching. Since blackwork is small and very sturdy, does >anyone know of a reason why they may have added the extra filmy layer? My guess is that they did a good job of obscuring the fact that not everybody's blackwork was all that small and sturdy. I have a pair of uninspiring blackwork baby sleeves that are crying out for this treatment. I also seem to remember a book on blackwork that put forth the theory that the soft, fog like veiling of silk gave Spanish blackwork a more "English" quality, but that seems a bit farfetched to me. Margo ------------------------------ melissa hicks [24,391]CSuX:silks posting - blackwork sleeves Subject: Re: H-COST: Re: Silks posting - blackwork sleeves From: Melissa Hicks Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 07:11:12 +1000 - -Poster: Melissa Hicks At 12:29 PM 11/06/97 -0700, you wrote: >-Poster: Margo Anderson > > >>>the gauzy sleeves that cover the blackwork ones < >> >>I have wanted to work those blackwork sleeves ever since I saw them. >>What a strange design feature to obscure several months worth of >>intricate stitching. Since blackwork is small and very sturdy, does >>anyone know of a reason why they may have added the extra filmy layer? Maybe the guaze protects the blackwork somewhat. I know if I ever spent the months blackworking sleeves, I wouldn't want to get them dirty. I think it would be a pain to clean those embroidered sleeves on a regular basis. This idea is my ignorant own and not based on any research in this area. Melissa. ------------------------------ bshuwarg@lausd.k12.ca.us[20,392]CSuX:italian renaissance redux Subject: H-COST: Italian Renaissance Redux From: bshuwarg@lausd.k12.ca.us Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 09:07:54 -0700 - -Poster: bshuwarg@lausd.k12.ca.us > > I was watching the infamous Borgia tapes last night, and there was an > interview with Paul Ettesvold of the Metropolitan Costume Institute. He > said two things which puzzled me. First of all, he mentioned something > about leather corsets being used as undergarments. Is this so or did I > mishear what he meant? He also said that there are no surviving Italian > Renaissance garments. Is this also true? > > The costumes in this series really are fabulous. I wonder what happened > to them. > > OK, back to lurking now. > > Barbara/Helisenne ------------------------------ deonora@aol.com[27,393]CSuX:lined slash-and-puff Subject: Re: H-COST: Lined slash-and-puff From: Deonora@aol.com Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 19:36:42 -0400 (EDT) - -Poster: Deonora@aol.com I have studied that particular portrait for many years and have seen really excellent repro of the portrait (which is in the National Portrait Gallery in London). the slashes are NOT lined with tan fabric -- the sleeves themselves are lined with FUR (I would guess summer squirrel or rabbit by it's appearance), which peaks out at the edge of the slashes (which are only around the elbows, to allow them to bend). This is one of the few examples where I've seen 16th c. clothing with faced slashes -- that useage seems to have become more common in the 17th c., when most slashes were long ane along the straight of the grain (cavalier doublets and such). Hope this helps clarify... Denise Zaccagnino aka Lady Deonora Ridenow ------------------------------ End of h-costume-digest V1 #9 ***************************** automatic digest processor [20,394]CSuX:h-costume digest - 10 jun 1997 to 11 jun 1997 Subject: H-COSTUME Digest - 10 Jun 1997 to 11 Jun 1997 From: Automatic digest processor Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 00:00:11 -0400 There are 19 messages totalling 452 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Silks posting (3) 2. HIST: 1750's brocade (3) 3. Any one up for "Romeo & Xena"??? 4. Romeo and Xena 5. Earlier post re cutting on cross of fabric. 6. Viking garb (3) 7. girsat corcra images anywhere? 8. Xena Costume (seriously!) 9. answer for Bill sent incorrectly before 10. H-COST: 13th(?) C. Headdress Question 11. Roman Sandals 12. Silks posting/Eliz oversleeve 13. Costume Calendar ---------------------------------------------------------------------- maggie pierce [14,395]CSuX:silks posting Subject: Re: Silks posting From: Maggie Pierce Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 00:08:37 -0400 In a message dated 97-06-10 19:11:16 EDT, csy20688@GGR.CO.UK (Mrs C S Yeldham) writes: > > I am particularly interested as I have an order for some very light weight > silk gauze (for Elizabethan oversleeves) Just out of curiosity, why would you use very lightweight silk for oversleeves (sleeves to the gown, I presume)? MaggiRos ------------------------------ julie adams [20,396]CSuX:hist: 1750 s brocade Subject: Re: HIST: 1750's brocade From: Julie Adams Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 21:19:48 -0700 >I am looking for 1750's style brocades. If any one has info on what books >to look for I can start search fabric stores, but right now I don't have >any clear pictures on what the patterns were. > I would suggest: "Revolution in Fashion 1715-1815" by The Kyoto Costume Institute, Abbeville Press Publishers, New York, 1989 and only a little past that period: "Fabric of Society, A Century of People and their Clothes 1770-1870" by Jane Tozer adn Sarah Levitt, A Laura Ashley Publication, Wales 1983 Have fun, Julie Adams ------------------------------ gia gavino-gattshall [19,397]CSuX:any one up for "romeo & xena"??? Subject: Re: Any one up for "Romeo & Xena"??? From: Gia Gavino-Gattshall Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 19:40:06 -0700 ---------- > From: Karen Krebser Tuesday, June 10, 1997 1:10 PM > > <...Xena play snipped for space...> > > Isn't this list moderated? Just wondering... > > Karen Krebser > >snip< No, I don't think so. But I just saved these to my Funnies File... giggling :-) Gia ------------------------------ mrs c s yeldham [17,398]CSuX:silks posting Subject: Re: Silks posting From: Mrs C S Yeldham Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 10:21:00 GMT Probably I put it carelessly. The embroidered sleeves on an Elizabethan gown are commonly covered with a *very* fine 'oversleeve' usually assumed to be silk gauze, probably to protect the embroidery. This is distinct from the 'oversleeve' which matches the gown and contrasts with the embroidered sleeves. You can see it in pictures as a faint haze on the edges of the sleeves. The stomacher is also often covered with the same gauze and it would seem the same stuff (or very similar) was used as 'aprons' in the very late 16th century for fine ladies. So, yes, lea bob is right! On Julie Adams query - no, no mention of craft/clothes transmission. Caroline ------------------------------ kelly a. rinne [8,399]CSuX:silks posting Subject: Re: Silks posting From: "Kelly A. Rinne" Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 08:00:03 -0500 I have also done the same thing on theatrical costumes that have heavy beading that might otherwise catch on other parts of the garment, passing curtains, or actors. If the garment is a knit, you can use stretch souffle for the same effect. Kel ------------------------------ catherine leonard [19,400]CSuX:romeo and xena Subject: Romeo and Xena From: Catherine Leonard Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 10:16:16 -0400 At the risk of starting too much off-topic discussion, flameage, or whatever, I thought this was hilarious. It really made my day! :-) So, how would one costume this epic? It seems that parody versions of authentic costumes would be in keeping with the comedic intent of the piece. What kinds of historic costume in-jokes do folks envision for this? I'm thinking either extremes in the details i.e. oversized sleeves, 3 foot long points of shoe toes, etc or purposeful mis-matches of elements i.e. the wrong foot wear, head gear, etc. Cate Catherine Leonard | lunar23@voicenet.com | cleonard@astro.ocis.temple.edu Department of Anthropology, Temple University 210 Gladfelter Hall, Phila, Pa Kill me with chocolate and make it a slow, painful death... ------------------------------ john labarthe [16,401]CSuX:earlier post re cutting on cross of fabric. Subject: Re: Earlier post re cutting on cross of fabric. From: John LaBarthe Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 23:58:43 +0930 Dear all I thought you might like to know what my mother said about cutting fabric on the cross. It completely slipped my mind to ask her, she's only been a seamstress for 10 or so years...:/, but I was telling her how helpful you'd all been, and that everyone had given me some great ideas, etc. After telling me I should've asked her, she told me that to cut the fabric on the cross is this. Instead of laying the faric in half widthways or lengthways, you fold it in half DIAGONALLY. This uses more fabric, obviously, but gives an incredibly lovely fall to the garment. Just thought I'd post this for interests sake. Thanks again for all your help. :) Lydie. ------------------------------ elizabeth sissom [18,402]CSuX:viking garb Subject: Viking garb From: Elizabeth Sissom Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 08:09:31 PDT Greetings! i just signed onto this and i had a question. I recently joined the SCA (6 mo. ago) and I am going with Viking persona. My question is, does anyone know what a 10th century Viking, or Norse, or Scandinavian (whatever you wanna call us) woman would wear? I have been going with just a tunic over a chemise and moccasin boots but i was curious as to whether there as a particular thing i should wear. Any knowledge would be helpful. Thanks! Elizabeth --------------------------------------------------------- Get Your *Web-Based* Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com --------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ elizabeth j. poole [11,403]CSuX:girsat corcra images anywhere? Subject: girsat corcra images anywhere? From: "Elizabeth J. Poole" Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 11:40:04 -0400 I tried several web searches, and can't seem to unearth any images of the girsat corcra, the ancient Irish purple sash. Can anyone help me locate information about and images of this traditional article? Thanking you all in advance, cheers, ejp -------- Elizabeth Poole ejp@watson.ibm.com ------------------------------ leslie helms [13,404]CSuX:xena costume (seriously!) Subject: Xena Costume (seriously!) From: Leslie Helms Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 09:59:36 -0700 Cate's question, and the Xena posts, come at an interesting time. I am designing a Xena custume for a farcical event. Please, all you who have musings on this dubious topic, feel free to write me! My goal is a costume that evokes the image but does so satirically, and looks okay on a fairly chunky woman (5 foot 4, 165 pounds). Who better than we, to make fun of ourselves? Leslie ------------------------------ mary-gayle jany [31,405]CSuX:answer for bill sent incorrectly before Subject: answer for Bill sent incorrectly before From: Mary-Gayle Jany Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 12:03:50 -0500 Sorry, but I apparently tried to send this incorrectly earlier pertinent to Bill's questions about prostitutes' colors, etc. If it shows twice, please pardon me. My answers are correct; my computer knowledge is lacking. Bill asked: Have you got any ref.s for this? I have been trying to track down this association of yellow headdress and prostitution in the 13th cent Someone has finally asked a question that I can help answer! The following references not only have the information about colors, but also explain all the restrictions prostitutes were governed by. The references are fully documented from primary sources (laws and ordinances within various countries and cities). Bassermann, Lujo. _The Oldest Profession: A History of Prostitution_. trans. from German by James Cleugh. New York: Dorset Press, 1993. (ISBN: 0-88029-248-2) Goldberg, P. J. P. _Women, Work, and Life Cycle in a Medieval Economy: Women in York and Yorkshire c.1300-1520_. Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1992. Rossiaud, Jacques. _Medieval Prostitution_. trans. by Lydia G. Cochrane. New York: Basil Blackwell, Inc., 1988. (ISBN: 0-631-15141-9) Wiesner, Merry E. _Working Women in Renaissance Germany_. New Brunswick, Hope these help. Meg ------------------------------ leslie helms [13,406]CSuX:13th(?) c. headdress question Subject: Re: H-COST: 13th(?) C. Headdress Question From: Leslie Helms Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 08:49:18 -0700 At 06:15 PM 6/10/97 +0200, you wrote: >Remember; you will look like a rich burgher's wife or minor noble >woman, so don't wear a girdle on your surcottes. Thanks for the excellent description! My period is early Russia but I enjoy putting together an occasional outfit from other times/places. I do wonder why a burgher's wife or minor noble woman would be assumed to not wear a girdle? And who WOULD wear one with this type of clothing? Thanks, Leslie ------------------------------ elizabeth cimmiyotti [11,407]CSuX:hist: 1750 s brocade Subject: HIST: 1750's brocade From: Elizabeth Cimmiyotti Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 14:20:10 -0700 Thannk you to all who responded to my query. I now have a stack of books on hold at the library to look through. I would not have known where to start without all the suggestions that I got. Ula Brennasdottir ula@agora.rdrop.com Black Guard Mercenary Company Kingdom of AnTir ------------------------------ j&b [21,408]CSuX:viking garb Subject: Re: Viking garb From: J&B Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 17:03:06 +0000 Dear Elizabeth - have you considered a helmet with big horns on it? Elizabeth Sissom wrote: ...I recently joined > the SCA (6 mo. ago) and I am going with Viking persona. My question is, > does anyone know what a 10th century Viking, or Norse, or Scandinavian > (whatever you wanna call us) woman would wear? I have been going with > just a tunic over a chemise and moccasin boots but i was curious as to > whether there as a particular thing i should wear. Any knowledge would > be helpful. Thanks! > > Elizabeth > > --------------------------------------------------------- > Get Your *Web-Based* Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > --------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ kate pinner [12,409]CSuX:roman sandals Subject: Roman Sandals From: kate pinner Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 16:46:40 -0500 Hi! I'm new to this and I hope you don't mind my bringing up another topic...but...I'm doing *Julius Caesar* next year and need to know how to replicate Roman sandals -- preferably inexpensively and relatively quickly since I'll need to make about 20 pairs. Thought I'd start on them this summer. Thanx! Kate Pinner, Designer - Sets & Costumes Kelsey Theatre, Mercer County College Trenton, NJ ------------------------------ erin & david moody [22,410]CSuX:silks posting/eliz oversleeve Subject: Re: Silks posting/Eliz oversleeve From: Erin & David Moody Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 12:24:14 -0700 At 12:08 AM 6/11/97 -0400, you wrote: >In a message dated 97-06-10 19:11:16 EDT, csy20688@GGR.CO.UK (Mrs C S >Yeldham) writes: > >> >> I am particularly interested as I have an order for some very light weight >> silk gauze (for Elizabethan oversleeves) > > Actually, I would recommend silk organza for the oversleeves rather than silk gauze. The fabric in paintings looks rather stiff and does not droop against the blackwork sleeves, it billows out a bit. Silk guaze is very drapey and would fall against the sleeve. To replicate most paintings of this style, I would cut the organza over sleeve using the same pattern as the backwork sleeve only increasing the size overall so you would get the airy feeling in between the backwork sleeve and the filmy oversleeve. Erin Moody ------------------------------ penny e. ladnier [30,411]CSuX:costume calendar Subject: Costume Calendar From: "Penny E. Ladnier" Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 21:16:04 -0400 Finally, a calendar for historic costume lovers... Today, I purchased a wonderful costume 1998 calendar called "Reflections in Time, 1998". Each month features photos of costumes from different museums. Some of the museums that are featured are the Smithsonian, Los Angelos County Museum of Art, and Kent State University Museum. The photos used I have not seen published before. I was so impressed that I called Sally Queen, the creator, and asked where other people can purchase the calendar. She said, "They can be purchased through museums gift shops, Lady's Gallery magazine or her company, Q-Graphics." If you would like to contact Sally Queen, her email address is saqueen@aol.com or 703-836-2407. It's wonderful the world is starting to market towards us, historic costumers. We need products, also! Later...Penny Penny E. Dunlap Ladnier, s0peladn@erols.com Historic Costume Research http://www.geocities.com/BourbonStreet/2157 member: Costume Society of America American Fashion Council Virginia Commonwealth University Alumni (finally!) ------------------------------ julie adams [60,412]CSuX:viking garb Subject: Re: Viking garb From: Julie Adams Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 19:50:33 -0700 Elizabeth wrote: > i just signed onto this and i had a question. I recently joined >the SCA (6 mo. ago) and I am going with Viking persona. My question is, >does anyone know what a 10th century Viking, or Norse, or Scandinavian >(whatever you wanna call us) woman would wear? I have been going with >just a tunic over a chemise and moccasin boots but i was curious as to >whether there as a particular thing i should wear. Any knowledge would >be helpful. Thanks! I personally like the book "The Viking" by Crescent Books, New York 1991 ed. ISBN 0-517 44.553-0 It has some nice line drawings of costuming and various items of material culture. Also are very nice photographs of actual art. I also like the books "The Viking Age" by DuChaillu. I think they came in two volumes. I don't own these books, but they had excerpts from sagas describing costume, events, and cultural aspects. They were in my University library. I have a couple more books in my library on Viking art, but the above books are really the ones you want to look at for costuming. Any Viking Art book will have various examples of brooches, pendants, collars, and bracelets. A woman usually wore a pleated kirtle covered by a decorated apron. Though they were probably made of wool, a linen would also do. I think I would broom handle pleat any future Viking kirtles I made or I would send the fabric to a pleating company, such as San Fransisco Pleating company to do it for me...one was enough. The apron was usually held still by two large brooches above each breast. There were two main styles. One was two rectangles front and back, and one wrapped all around the body. Hair was worn in a knot in the back of the head with the remaining hair flowing down like a pony tail, or worn under a kerchief, or worn with a headband (from Du Chaillu). Scissors and grooming equipment (tweezers, ear cleaner, etc. often hung from the brooches.) Various cloaks and shawls worn. Cloaks were usually cut as rectangles or triangles. I can't recall what was worn beneath the womans costume, but I would suspect some form of leggings were worn during winters in Norway. Shoes worn were soft looking and similar to short moccassons, but they look like they are turnsole rather than having the external visible stitching most mocs have. I know this is rather simplified, but hope it helps, Julie Adams (who has been told numerous times by guys in wild ethnic/surfer print pants that some Laurel did research for Gregory of York's Viking coronation way back when, and she said that Vikings wore print pants just like that.... but gets very confused looks when I say... I was that woman and I never said that...) ------------------------------ don & carolyn richardson [22,413]CSuX:hist: 1750 s brocade Subject: Re: HIST: 1750's brocade From: Don & Carolyn Richardson Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 19:57:25 -0700 Julie Adams wrote: > > >I am looking for 1750's style brocades. If any one has info on what books > >to look for I can start search fabric stores, but right now I don't have > >any clear pictures on what the patterns were. > > Just got a new book from Hamilton called "Silk designs of the 18th century from the Victoria and Albert Museum, London". The editor is Clare Brown, ISBN 0-500-27880-6, publisher is Thames and Hudson. This is literally a book of painted designs with some scraps of the brocades made from them - covers the whole century. I got this from Hamilton's web page which is at www.hamiltonbook.com (it's not in their hardcopy catalog). Carolyn ------------------------------ End of H-COSTUME Digest - 10 Jun 1997 to 11 Jun 1997 **************************************************** automatic digest processor [13,414]CSuX:h-costume digest - 11 jun 1997 to 12 jun 1997 Subject: H-COSTUME Digest - 11 Jun 1997 to 12 Jun 1997 From: Automatic digest processor Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 00:01:36 -0400 There are 9 messages totalling 235 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Roman Sandals 2. Viking garb (3) 3. Hi There 4. VIKING GARB 5. Gay '90's Pictorial References 6. H-COST: re: Re: Viking garb (2) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- leslie helms [17,415]CSuX:roman sandals Subject: Re: Roman Sandals From: Leslie Helms Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 22:23:14 -0700 For expedient Roman sandals-- If you have budgetary concerns, start watching for sales NOW at various chain stores! Many inexpensive sandals will form decent bases for built-up tops. Depending on your authenticity goals, you can add straps of leather or simulated leather. I recommend that you get sizes from all the actors asap so you can take advantage of markdowns. Permanent marker or shoe dye can darken the sides of the soles, etc. if needed. Be careful not to get sandals with deep, highly synthetic-looking tread if the feet will be very visible. With the summer and fall to keep shopping, you should find something that will work great. Good luck, and remember to have fun, Leslie ------------------------------ leslie helms [10,416]CSuX:viking garb Subject: Re: Viking garb From: Leslie Helms Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 22:26:10 -0700 Elizabeth, E-mail me privately, if you please. I've lost your address, and have some ideas for you. Leslie leslieh@canfield.com ------------------------------ a s [17,417]CSuX:hi there Subject: Hi There From: A S Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 07:04:37 PDT Hi Everyone Im new to all of this internet thing, im from derby , england, is anyone else from england, there seems to be a lot of american users out there from england? Anyway my names Lisa!! ple --------------------------------------------------------- Get Your *Web-Based* Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com --------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ elizabeth sissom [15,418]CSuX:viking garb Subject: VIKING GARB From: Elizabeth Sissom Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 07:17:57 PDT Greetings!, Thank you to all the kind ladies who sent such timely replies to my letter. I now have all the information i need to build up my garb. You've all been very kind. Elizabeth --------------------------------------------------------- Get Your *Web-Based* Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com --------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ shadewes company [21,419]CSuX:viking garb Subject: Re: Viking garb From: shadewes company Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 08:47:39 -0500 > >Dear Elizabeth - > >have you considered a helmet with big horns on it? > >Elizabeth Sissom wrote: >...I recently joined >> the SCA (6 mo. ago) and I am going with Viking persona. My question is, >> does anyone know what a 10th century Viking, or Norse, or Scandinavian >> (whatever you wanna call us) woman would wear? I really do hope this was a joke..... The horned helm thing is a big peeve of mine. There were very RARE intances of helms with horns in some early period cultures but they were cerimonial only. Nancy Laughlin-Foust ------------------------------ michael n morell [5,420]CSuX:gay 90 s pictorial references Subject: Re: Gay '90's Pictorial References From: Michael N Morell Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 19:52:03 -0400 Also check out the work of Howard Chandler Christy, who was also a combat artist during the Spanish-American War. He was primarily an illustrator. ------------------------------ judy mitchell [68,421]CSuX:viking garb Subject: Re: Viking garb From: Judy Mitchell Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 00:14:01 GMT hello, I'm new to the list, only started lurking a few weeks ago. But since Viking is my specialty, I thought I'd wade in. Because Elizabeth feels she has enough info, I won't go into nearly the detail I might have, but I couldn't let a few things pass. Oh, I've been doing Living History for about 3 years now, and doing extensive research into Women's Clothing. > I personally like the book "The Viking" by Crescent Books, New York 1991 ed. > ISBN 0-517 44.553-0 This I couldn't let go. Please only use this book for the wonderful photographs because the line drawings are atrocious (aside from giving it the nick-name of 'The Prune People Book'!). We have even been recently contacted by the Viking expert at the musuem in Trondheim Norway (about an tent question) and she was nearly apoplectic about the fallacies the drawings in this book have perpetuated! The clothes aren't quite right, the tents aren't right, adn that doesn't leave much... but at least there aren't any horned helmets. Sigh. > I also like the books "The Viking Age" by DuChaillu. I think they came in > two volumes. I don't own these books, but they had excerpts from sagas > describing costume, events, and cultural aspects. They were in my > University library. yes, it does come in 2 volumes (I have them photocopied!). There are wonderful steel-engraving pictures of tons of artifacts, mostly bronze age though. I was very dismayed that the musuem were the artifacts live was closed for renovations when I was there! Hopefully Elizabeth has found out about the SCA's booklet: The Complete Anachronist #59 (Northern Women's Garb), which is very good and has a great bibliography - and only a few things I disagree with ;-). Other good sources are: Margrethe Hald's two books _Primitive Shoes_ and _Ancient Danish Textiles form Bogs and Burials_. Both published, I believe by the National Musuem of Denmark - and both (unfortunately) out of print, but that's what InterLibraryLoan is for! Another good shoe book is: Willy Groenman-van Waateringe's _Die Lederfunde von Haithabu_. It is in German, but the illustrations of all the shoe patterns don't need translating, and that's 1/2 of the book! There are lots more primary source-ish books (works dealing with the artifacts rather than general works) if anyone wants to know. Also, a good place to get shoes if you don't want to mess with sizing up a pattern to fit your feet, is to order from Smoke & Fire (1-800-SMOKEFI) and get their 'woodland Indian moccasin kit'. It is pre-cut elkhide along with the instructions, a very sharp glovers needle and more than enough sinew, and some nifty heavy felt that you can use in something else. And it costs about $28. All you do is make it up according to their instructions, ditch the felt, and turn the extra side flaps *inside* the shoe (like a liner) instead of folding it over for decorating. If you cut some slits along the top and run a strip of latigo lace around to snug it up to your foot, you have an exact copy (well, except maybe the elkhide) of a Danish shoe from Hald's book! Easy. It took me less than a weekend. > Scissors and grooming equipment (tweezers, ear cleaner, etc. often hung > from the brooches.) And don't forget the ever popular needlecase! Which was suspended from a jumpring attached on its side, and the thing hung horizontally! > (who has been told numerous times by guys in wild ethnic/surfer print pants > that some Laurel did research for Gregory of York's Viking coronation way > back when, and she said that Vikings wore print pants just like that.... > but gets very confused looks when I say... I was that woman and I never > said that...) AYIII Print??! I bet they thought the vikings wore cotton, too! -Judy Mitchell (Gressa Trekona) ------------------------------ julie adams [18,422]CSuX:viking garb Subject: Re: H-COST: re: Re: Viking garb From: Julie Adams Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 19:29:24 -0700 >How much extra width would you need to allow to accomodate the pleats? I'm >guessing an extra 5 to 10 percent on something like linen that will take >pleats really well. It sounds like a great way to get those fabrics that >insist on wrinkling to work for you. Maggie, I think I would allow at least 2 to 1, but the best way to know is to cut a 1/2 yard piece, measure it before you broom pleat and then measure it again after, because it will be very dependent on fabric choice. If you are having a professional pleater do it, then its 3 to 1. I forgot to mention that the pleats around the neckline and wrists (if long sleeved) should probably be set in some fashion or it will be too loose at the neck. Julie Adams ------------------------------ judy mitchell [31,423]CSuX:viking garb Subject: Re: H-COST: re: Re: Viking garb From: Judy Mitchell Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 03:07:36 GMT hello again, > >How much extra width would you need to allow to accomodate the pleats? I'm > >guessing an extra 5 to 10 percent on something like linen that will take > >pleats really well. It sounds like a great way to get those fabrics that > >insist on wrinkling to work for you. > > I forgot to mention that the pleats around the neckline and wrists (if long > sleeved) should probably be set in some fashion or it will be too loose at > the neck. Actually, Agnes Geijer, the fabric expert who analysed the fabric scraps at Birka and wrote on them, wasn't really sure how the 'pleating' affect was done. And remember that her term 'pleat' isn't necessary the same as ours (think braiding and plaiting). She mentioned a technique calles plisse' which she thought would give the same effect. I have also heard others that feel that the dresses weren't actually pleated, but were simply very full garments that were gathered in, creating a pleating look. This comment was based on the diagrams in Geijer's article 'Textile Finds in Birka' from Harte & Ponting's book _Cloth & Clothing of Medieval Europe_. the diagrams indicate the direction the pleats/folds went around the brooch pins and how the fabric would have gone around the shoulders and arms. The commenter felt that a full, gathered garment would spread in that same manner whereas the pleating might not. Do we even know for certain that the sleeves were pleated/gathered? Or only the body panel at the neck? -Judy Mitchell ------------------------------ End of H-COSTUME Digest - 11 Jun 1997 to 12 Jun 1997 **************************************************** h-costume-digest-approval@world.std.com (h-costume-digest)[40,424]CSuX:h-costume-digest v1 #10 Subject: h-costume-digest V1 #10 From: h-costume-digest-approval@world.std.com (h-costume-digest) Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 11:20:10 -0400 (EDT) h-costume-digest Friday, June 13 1997 Volume 01 : Number 010 In this issue: H-COST: Early sewing machines? Re: H-COST: Re: Silks posting - blackwork sleeves H-COST: R&K Sutlery Re: H-COST: Re: Silks posting - blackwork sleeves Re: H-COST: 13 c Irish clothing RE: H-COST: Re: Silks posting - blackwork sleeves Re: H-COST: RE: Xena Costume (seriously!) Re: H-COST: R&K Sutlery Re: H-COST: Re: Silks posting - blackwork sleeves RE: H-COST: leather corsets H-COST: re: Re: Viking garb H-COST: RE: subscribing to h-costume Re: H-COST: R&K Sutlery RE: H-COST: re: Re: Viking garb H-COST: Re: Roman Sandals re: H-COST: re: Re: Viking garb Re: H-COST: re: Viking garb now broomstick pleats H-COST: Pronunciations Re[2]: H-COST: more pomegranates RE: H-COST: Pronunciations RE: H-COST: re: Re: Viking garb re: H-COST: re: Re: Viking garb H-COST: Re: Viking garb Re: H-COST: re: broomstick pleats H-COST: H-COST Pewter button source? H-COST: Attn: Susan Loberger! Re: H-COST: R&K Sutlery Re: H-COST: Lined slash-and-puff Re: H-COST: Pronunciations Re: H-COST: R&K Sutlery Re: H-COST: re: Re: Viking garb ---------------------------------------------------------------------- cat [14,425]CSuX:early sewing machines? Subject: H-COST: Early sewing machines? From: Cat Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 18:33:25 -0700 - -Poster: Cat Got into a discussion with a friend today about when the sewing machine first became available for home use. I know they were available in the 1860's, but can anyone give me a more precise date? Thanks! - - Cat ------------------------------ lea e harp tuley [38,426]CSuX:silks posting - blackwork sleeves Subject: Re: H-COST: Re: Silks posting - blackwork sleeves From: lea e harp tuley Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 19:22:42 -0700 - -Poster: lea e harp tul