h-costume-digest-approval@world.std.com (h-costume-digest)[44,0]CSuX:h-costume-digest v1 #38 Subject: h-costume-digest V1 #38 From: h-costume-digest-approval@world.std.com (h-costume-digest) Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 08:39:32 -0400 (EDT) h-costume-digest Tuesday, August 5 1997 Volume 01 : Number 038 In this issue: H-COST: Color changing fabric & Archives H-COST: Hairnets: 13th - 14th Cen Re: H-COST: Hairnets: 13th - 14th Cen Re: H-COST: Hairnets: 13th - 14th Cen H-COST: Norman/Saxon clothing Re: H-COST: Hairnets: 13th - 14th Cen Re: H-COST: Neato sewing tricks H-COST: Sari Re: H-COST: Neato sewing tricks H-COST: Thank you! H-COST: Rust in White Satin Re: H-COST: Rust in White Satin Re: H-COST: Hairnets: 13th - 14th Cen H-COST: frock coat Re: H-COST: RE: Roar Re: H-COST: RE: Roar.mail et al Re: H-COST: Rust in White Satin H-COST: [Fwd: Mail] Re: H-COST: Rust in White Satin H-COST: Travel to Seattle H-COST: Pendleton outlet? H-COST: A thank-you note to everyone! H-COST: cleaning leather Re: H-COST: cleaning leather Re: H-COST: cleaning leather RE: H-COST: cleaning leather RE: H-COST: Pendleton outlet? Re: H-COST: RE: Roar.mail et al H-COST: H-COST; Re: Mail Re: H-COST: RE: Roar H-COST: Chicago: Vogue fabrics sale till 8/16 H-COST: something wrong with my access? Re: H-COST: something wrong with my access? H-COST: H-COST; Re: Mail Re: H-COST: Chicago: Vogue fabrics sale till 8/16 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- kendra van cleave/sf [19,1]CSuX:color changing fabric & archives Subject: H-COST: Color changing fabric & Archives From: "Kendra Van Cleave/SF" Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 15:34:16 -0400 - -Poster: "Kendra Van Cleave/SF" I know this has been discussed thoroughly, but I don't know where to find the h-costume archives, so I can't go look there! (Speaking of which, ARE there archives any more? If so, where are they?) I have the same problem someone (??) had a few months ago -- my purple moire victorian ball gown is turning PINK in the folds of the pleats. What do I do? Do I just dye the whole thing black? Throw it away? If anyone remembers this discussion and knows how to prevent this, and if there's anything I can do now, please email me off list at kendrav@bizwire.com. Kendra Van Cleave kendrav@bizwire.com ------------------------------ donna holsten [29,2]CSuX:hairnets: 13th - 14th cen Subject: H-COST: Hairnets: 13th - 14th Cen From: "Donna Holsten" Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 16:41:05 -0600 (CST) - -Poster: "Donna Holsten" I've been looking at the hairnets in the MOL's _Textiles & Clothing_, and I'm not sure I completely understand them. They've been "worked in the round" which ends up being a cylinder that needs to be closed at one end. That's actually shown in the picture, with the center gathered by a cord. But that would give either a circular or elongated "seam" up the middle of the hairnet, right? It'd run along the line you get when you part your hair in the middle. I've certainly never seen period drawings of women with hairnets showing a "seam" like that, though. And then the other question I have is, they mention a tape sewn around the outer edge--that tape would have to be sewn so that the net is always "in shape", right? (So that the area that is gathered, is always gathered, and the area that is flat, is always flat--so you can't adjust the gathers.) The bit of remnant tape they show in the picture doesn't look like it has the net gathered to it, though. The net just looks sewn on flat. Thanks to anyone who can help me out with any of this! Donna (holsten@nature.berkeley.edu) ------------------------------ joan m jurancich [40,3]CSuX:hairnets: 13th - 14th cen Subject: Re: H-COST: Hairnets: 13th - 14th Cen From: Joan M Jurancich Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 19:51:20 -0700 - -Poster: Joan M Jurancich I'm not certain I understand what you are trying to describe (and MOL means ?). A net made in what technique? There are ways to make nets "in the round" with no seam or seam-like lines. (The 13th-14th centuries are too early for crocheting.) Joan Jurancich Sacramento, CA joanj@quiknet.com At 04:41 PM 7/30/97 -0600, Donna Holsten wrote: >-Poster: "Donna Holsten" [snip] >I've been looking at the hairnets in the MOL's _Textiles & Clothing_, and >I'm not sure I completely understand them. > >They've been "worked in the round" which ends up being a cylinder that >needs to be closed at one end. That's actually shown in the picture, >with the center gathered by a cord. But that would give either a circular >or elongated "seam" up the middle of the hairnet, right? It'd run along the >line you get when you part your hair in the middle. I've certainly >never seen period drawings of women with hairnets showing a "seam" like >that, though. > >And then the other question I have is, they mention a tape sewn around the >outer edge--that tape would have to be sewn so that the net is always "in >shape", right? (So that the area that is gathered, is always gathered, and >the area that is flat, is always flat--so you can't adjust the gathers.) >The bit of remnant tape they show in the picture doesn't look like it has >the net gathered to it, though. The net just looks sewn on flat. > >Thanks to anyone who can help me out with any of this! > >Donna (holsten@nature.berkeley.edu) > ------------------------------ hanna larsson [39,4]CSuX:hairnets: 13th - 14th cen Subject: Re: H-COST: Hairnets: 13th - 14th Cen From: Hanna Larsson Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 09:57:41 +0200 - -Poster: Hanna Larsson >I've been looking at the hairnets in the MOL's _Textiles & Clothing_, and >I'm not sure I completely understand them. > >They've been "worked in the round" which ends up being a cylinder that >needs to be closed at one end. That's actually shown in the picture, >with the center gathered by a cord. But that would give either a circular >or elongated "seam" up the middle of the hairnet, right? It'd run along the >line you get when you part your hair in the middle. I've certainly >never seen period drawings of women with hairnets showing a "seam" like >that, though. As well as you can stitch socks and mittens, you should be able to make a hairnet that's shaped as a cylinder, without any seams. >And then the other question I have is, they mention a tape sewn around the >outer edge--that tape would have to be sewn so that the net is always "in >shape", right? (So that the area that is gathered, is always gathered, and >the area that is flat, is always flat--so you can't adjust the gathers.) >The bit of remnant tape they show in the picture doesn't look like it has >the net gathered to it, though. The net just looks sewn on flat. The tape is probably there to make the net more stable and to prevent it from being torn. I don't believe that the net was gathered to the tape. It would be very difficult to use if that was the case, don't you think? :-) It is also possible that the string that pulls the net together runs trough this tape. Hope this helps! - -Hanna ------------------------------ carol blanchard [11,5]CSuX:norman/saxon clothing Subject: H-COST: Norman/Saxon clothing From: "Carol Blanchard" Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 07:45:02 +0000 - -Poster: "Carol Blanchard" I'm researching Norman and Saxon clothing 1150-1175. I have used the normal history of fashion sources (Laver, Davenport, Boucher, Payne, Tortora) but haven't found any texts that deal with this period specifically. I'm looking for suggestions. I'm looking for information on both secular and clerical clothing from this period. ------------------------------ donna holsten [36,6]CSuX:hairnets: 13th - 14th cen Subject: Re: H-COST: Hairnets: 13th - 14th Cen From: "Donna Holsten" Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 09:12:44 -0600 (CST) - -Poster: "Donna Holsten" > I'm not certain I understand what you are trying to describe (and MOL > means ?). _Museum of London's Textiles and Clothing_. (Sorry! I use the book so much, I assume everyone else does, too!) The one I'm thinking of in particular, shown in the book, isn't netted "round" (disk-shaped) with increases and decreases, but rather "in the round", as a cylinder, so you never have to turn the work. (Like knitting a sock "in the round".) But, since it has to end up being a disk-shape, one end of the cylinder has to be closed--and, in fact, the picture shows exactly that. But that would (and, if fact, looking at the photo, does) leave a "seam" or "gather", which I haven't seen in any illuminations/drawings/paintings, nor have I seen anyone else wearing a net made like this. > The tape is probably there to make the net more stable and to prevent it > from being torn. > I don't believe that the net was gathered to the tape. It would be very > difficult to use if that was the case, don't you think? :-) Yes, actually, which is why I don't understand how it's supposed to work. The part of the tape which is left, (which, when I looked again, is actually a "braid", so there isn't an extra cord running through it) clearly looks sewn on (and the text says it's sewn on), rather than just threaded through as a gathering-cord. So if it's sewn on all the way around, with the net flat, it wouldn't work (it wouldn't help to gather it up), and if it's sewn in place with the net pre-gathered it wouldn't work (how would you get it onto your head?). Donna (holsten@nature.berkeley.edu) ------------------------------ reksid@aol.com[20,7]CSuX:neato sewing tricks Subject: Re: H-COST: Neato sewing tricks From: REKSID@aol.com Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 12:55:41 -0400 (EDT) - -Poster: REKSID@aol.com Dear list- Agnes told us how to get the shine off wool after it is pressed with an iron by rubbing a nickle over the shine. I tried it and it works!! Who would have guessed? Anyway.... My business partner and I publish a newsletter every quarter. Next quarter we are going to include, you guessed it, neato sewing tricks. I am soliciting any tricks that anyone might know of. Last quarter we included costuming Web sites. Researching was great fun. Thanks Agnes . You saved my costume. Becky Kaufman Kaufman-Davis Studio ------------------------------ m311@aol.com[10,8]CSuX:sari Subject: H-COST: Sari From: M311@aol.com Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 13:00:38 -0400 (EDT) - -Poster: M311@aol.com I am looking for the name of the book someone recommended about making a Sari. I have lost the name. Can someone please email it to me again. Thanks, Kelly Ablrecht m311@aol.com ------------------------------ kklocko@shrsys.hslc.org[15,9]CSuX:neato sewing tricks Subject: Re: H-COST: Neato sewing tricks From: kklocko@SHRSYS.HSLC.ORG Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 13:50:39 -0400 (EDT) - -Poster: kklocko@SHRSYS.HSLC.ORG > Anyway.... My business partner and I publish a newsletter every quarter. Next > quarter we are going to include, you guessed it, neato sewing tricks. I am > soliciting any tricks that anyone might know of. Last quarter we included > costuming Web sites. Researching was great fun. what's the name of your newsletter? --Kathy Klocko ------------------------------ ashley wells [13,10]CSuX:thank you! Subject: H-COST: Thank you! From: Ashley Wells Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 14:45:56 -0700 - -Poster: Ashley Wells Thanks to all of you who sent me so much info (both on list and privately) on the Indian cottons ca. 1790-1805, and on the short stays for the same period. There were a few sources there that should keep the ILL folks busy for a while , as well as some fairly readily accessable references. You kind folks have saved me many hours - thank you! Ashley Wells ------------------------------ cornie rutherford [33,11]CSuX:rust in white satin Subject: H-COST: Rust in White Satin From: Cornie Rutherford Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 17:09:31 -0400 - -Poster: Cornie Rutherford Hi boys and girls, Your input please on the dilemma of the day: A co-worker plopped down in my office today clutching a very old, very dusty plastic bag. After 45 years of bachelorette life, she's finally found Mr. Right (or at least Mr. OK-for-government-work)and wants to realize her dream of wearing mom's wedding dress. That's what's in the bag. It's been lovingly(?) wadded up and stashed in a cardboard box and later in this bag - no tissue, no attempts at preservation, nothing - for 54 years. Given these conditions, it's in amazingly good shape EXCEPT (and here's the rub) for zillions of little rust spots everywhere the shank of the covered buttons touched the fabric. In some areas along the back waist and the elbow of the leg of mutton sleeves, the spots are more like 1" streaks. Never mind all the shoulda-woulda's. The overall workmanship and style are top flight so I'd like to salvage this dress if at all possible. The dress is ivory satin, champaigned with age, with heavy lace insets along the sleeves, walk-around train and center front. My co-worker is prepared to accept certain changes in the dresses appearance if I can get it into wearable shape. If I can't solve the rust riddle, there's really no point in going further. Your mission, oh learned fabric wizards, is to pass along some proven rust removal ideas. I think the fabric can be washed gently in cold water. I tested a small piece clipped from a seam and after pressing it looks pretty good, although the satin is not as shiny as it had been. I've got the lemon,salt and sunlight remedy and a chemical rust stan remover in my arsenal but would like some second opinions before venturing forth. Thanks Cornie ------------------------------ frances grimble [32,12]CSuX:rust in white satin Subject: Re: H-COST: Rust in White Satin From: Frances Grimble Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 14:25:53 -0700 - -Poster: Frances Grimble Cornie Rutherford wrote: > > -Poster: Cornie Rutherford > > Hi boys and girls, Your input please on the dilemma of the day: > A co-worker plopped down in my office today clutching a very old, very > dusty plastic bag. After 45 years of bachelorette life, she's finally found > Mr. Right (or at least Mr. OK-for-government-work)and wants to realize her > dream of wearing mom's wedding dress. > That's what's in the bag. It's been lovingly(?) wadded up and stashed > in a cardboard box and later in this bag - no tissue, no attempts at > preservation, nothing - for 54 years. Given these conditions, it's in > amazingly good shape EXCEPT (and here's the rub) for zillions of little rust > spots everywhere the shank of the covered buttons touched the fabric. In > some areas along the back waist and the elbow of the leg of mutton sleeves, > the spots are more like 1" streaks. Never mind all the shoulda-woulda's. > The overall workmanship and style are top flight so I'd like to salvage this > dress if at all possible. The dress is ivory satin, champaigned with > age, with heavy lace insets along the sleeves, walk-around train and center > front. My co-worker is prepared to accept certain changes in the dresses > appearance if I can get it into wearable shape. Given that the dress has lace appliques already, one solution would be to cover the rust spots with more appliques. I would also change the rusty buttons. Fran Grimble ------------------------------ maggiros@aol.com[26,13]CSuX:hairnets: 13th - 14th cen Subject: Re: H-COST: Hairnets: 13th - 14th Cen From: MaggiRos@aol.com Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 03:05:47 -0400 (EDT) - -Poster: MaggiRos@aol.com In a message dated 97-07-31 12:28:45 EDT, hanna@online.bonnier.se (Hanna Larsson) writes: > > The tape is probably there to make the net more stable and to prevent it > from being torn. > I don't believe that the net was gathered to the tape. It would be very > difficult to use if that was the case, don't you think? :-) I'm not sure this is related but I put my cauls on a flat band that is open at the base (under the hair at the back of the neck.) They close with a hook and eye. No problem at all, and no elastic or strings to come untied. > It is also possible that the string that pulls the net together runs trough > this tape. That would crinkle up the tape and ruffle the edge, though, wouldn't it? Just idle notions. MaggiRos ------------------------------ michaelg@wavefront.com[16,14]CSuX:frock coat Subject: H-COST: frock coat From: michaelg@wavefront.com Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 09:27:07 -0400 - -Poster: michaelg@wavefront.com Hi, I wrote some time back wanting to have a knee-length, single breasted frock coat made for everyday wear. Well, financial obligations precluded buying one then. But I am now again interested. Can you tell me what you can offer, and for what price? Thanks. Michael Gause ------------------------------ henk t jong [50,15]CSuX:roar Subject: Re: H-COST: RE: Roar From: "Henk 't Jong" Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 18:02:10 +0200 - -Poster: "Henk 't Jong" Henk & Pauline 't Jong tScapreel Medieval Advisors Dordrecht, Netherlands Hello list, Sean wrote (among other things) > Chain mail (lorica hamata) or no body armor would have been more > appropriate for the 400's Let me quote a favourite line from R. Ewart Oakeshott ( A Knight and his Horse, London, 1962): "There is no such thing as chain-mail. It is mail, and has been called mail in England since the Conquest. Chain-mail is a silly double-word invented by 19th-century writers, and has no place in the true study of armour." This double-word came about because these writers thought that the mail-links were made into long chains and then sewn onto a leather backing. They took very small miniatures as a source for this myth. In these one sees horizontal stripes, made of double lines, alternated by vertical or slightly rounded hatchings. This was a shorthand way of depicting mail and is especially seen in 13th c pictures. The myth should have ended when they started to find real mail in archeological digs, but by then Walter Scott, and his ilk, had done their damage. Hollywood took the term to it's bosom and since then historical novel-writers, comic strip artists, script writers and even historians can't even be forced at sword point (8-)) to change their view. And a perfectly respectable re-enacter like Sean (nice Homepage, Sean) uses the hybrid 'chain-mail' as well... (Well he's no medieval re-enacter, maybe that explains it. Although...) All you H-Costumers, remember for future occasions: it's MAIL! I hope I got through. It is damned hard to get people from their historically preconceived opinions, and I should know (I could tell you stories...but I won't) Bye, Henk ------------------------------ legixhis@electriciti.com (mcquinn/richards)[34,16]CSuX:roar.mail et al Subject: Re: H-COST: RE: Roar.mail et al From: legixhis@electriciti.com (McQuinn/Richards) Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 09:16:31 -0800 - -Poster: legixhis@electriciti.com (McQuinn/Richards) >Sean wrote (among other things) >> Chain mail (lorica hamata) or no body armor would have been more >> appropriate for the 400's >All you H-Costumers, remember for future occasions: it's MAIL! > >I hope I got through. It is damned hard to get people from their >historically preconceived opinions, and I should know (I could tell you >stories...but I won't) > >Bye, > > >Henk Well for Romans its not "mail" it's "lorica hamata"... for all you H-Costumers, that is.. And it isn't even "mail" its really "maille".. so there :p Sean Richards :) Roman Reenactment, Legio IX Hispana http://www.inetworld.net/~cian/legioix.html ------------------------------ mzscahlett@aol.com[18,17]CSuX:rust in white satin Subject: Re: H-COST: Rust in White Satin From: MzScahlett@aol.com Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 15:36:24 -0400 (EDT) - -Poster: MzScahlett@aol.com I do not know how to remove rust, but if some is left after you try everyone's suggestions for removal, why not embroider over it? I do a lot of theatrical costuming and for stains on white I use white-out right over the suckers (after everything else has failed of course) and from the stage it's good as new. This woudn't work on a wedding dress as it has to look nice up-close. But I have revamped some old dresses by embroidering right over damage. Sometimes the random patterns of the embroidery has actually improved the garment. Anyway, just my $.02 Angela ------------------------------ glenn and shanda grieb [23,18]CSuX:(mail) Subject: H-COST: [Fwd: Mail] From: Glenn and Shanda Grieb Date: Fri, 01 Aug 1997 15:59:46 -0500 - -Poster: Glenn and Shanda Grieb Glenn and Shanda Grieb wrote: > > Henk, > > I've seen it spelled "maille". Is this a french word, or just a funky > spelling someone came up with to make it seem more exotic? If it is > french in origin, what is the ctual translation? I was asked this by a > client recently, and didn't have an answer. > > Thanks, > Shanda Sean, See? I thought it was supposed to be spelled "maille". Do you happen to know the meaning and origin, by any chance? Shanda ------------------------------ reksid@aol.com[13,19]CSuX:rust in white satin Subject: Re: H-COST: Rust in White Satin From: REKSID@aol.com Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 17:24:17 -0400 (EDT) - -Poster: REKSID@aol.com I don't know how fragile the fabric is but there is a product called Wink rust remover. It is toxic but it works like a charm. It also works on your sink and anything that has rust on it. Test a small spot first. You can purchase it in some grocery stores or hardware stores. It comes in brown plastic bottle and costs only a couple bucks. Becky ------------------------------ mazelle@aol.com[14,20]CSuX:travel to seattle Subject: H-COST: Travel to Seattle From: Mazelle@aol.com Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 20:20:28 -0400 (EDT) - -Poster: Mazelle@aol.com Greetings I will be travelling to the Seattle area in a couple of weeks. I would like to know what is available there as far as shopping for fabric, trim, etc. There is also a chance of getting to Portland. I understand there are some great places to shop there. Please email me privately (mazelle@aol.com) . Thanks Mazelle ------------------------------ margo anderson [14,21]CSuX:pendleton outlet? Subject: H-COST: Pendleton outlet? From: Margo Anderson Date: Thu, 01 Aug 1996 23:35:48 -0700 - -Poster: Margo Anderson Does anyone know where in Oregon the Pendleton Factory outlet store is, and is it worth a side trip of thirty miles or so? I need to know by tomorrow night, my mom is going to Oregon and there's a cloak's worth of wool in in for me if I can give her the address! Thanks! Margo ------------------------------ amy wilson [27,22]CSuX:a thank-you note to everyone! Subject: H-COST: A thank-you note to everyone! From: Amy Wilson Date: 02 Aug 97 11:15:05 -0500 - -Poster: Amy Wilson Hi Everyone! You know, I have been remiss in expressing my thanks to everyone here who has taken the time to answer or comment on my various questions in some way over the past few months. Thanks! Thanks! Thanks! Whether it was about used clerical vestments, 13th century headdresses, sources for beaded motifs, or farthingales, you folks have generously shared your knowledge with me (and do so over and over for everyone here). I learn so much from this list, and I truly appreciate all the wealth of research and study represented by its members. Just wanted to say so... :) Cheers, Amy ------------------------------ lea e harp tuley [20,23]CSuX:cleaning leather Subject: H-COST: cleaning leather From: lea e harp tuley Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 22:13:41 -0700 - -Poster: lea e harp tuley my husband's semi-senile cat has generously "christened" his favorite pair of Wild Oats/Wild Soles RenFaire shoes... so. any hints as to how to get *that* cat smell out of the leather? lea bob (snif, snif "Why, my lord Earl, what an *unusual* perfume thou hast bathed thyself with...") aka Cat Hastings, Countess of Huntingdon (CaRPFN) Madness takes its toll. Please have correct change. ------------------------------ margo anderson [21,24]CSuX:cleaning leather Subject: Re: H-COST: cleaning leather From: Margo Anderson Date: Sat, 03 Aug 1996 00:54:15 -0700 - -Poster: Margo Anderson >any hints as to how to get *that* cat smell out of the leather? > Hi Lea! About 1000000000000000 people are going to tell you to use "Nature's Miracle" from the pet store. I'm one of them. I don't have cats, but I do have a toddler who gets out of his diapers at every oppportunity, so I know this stuff works. It might change the color of the leather a bit, so I'd make sure to saturate the entire shoe rather than spot-treating. I'd put it in a pump-spray bottle for this use. Good luck! Margo ------------------------------ maggiros@aol.com[14,25]CSuX:cleaning leather Subject: Re: H-COST: cleaning leather From: MaggiRos@aol.com Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 03:59:00 -0400 (EDT) - -Poster: MaggiRos@aol.com Hi Lea! I have something here called "Urine Kleen" that I use when my cats decide to make a "statement". It's by a company called G.G. Bean, and I got it from the Vermont Country Store catalog. It's waterbased, pretty much odorless, it is biodegradable, and it says it is safe on any surface and safe for pets. It's been a blessing for the furniture. MaggiRos ------------------------------ margo glenn-lewis [19,26]CSuX:cleaning leather Subject: RE: H-COST: cleaning leather From: Margo Glenn-Lewis Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 18:16:54 -0700 - -Poster: Margo Glenn-Lewis I haven't tried it on leather, but I've had very good results with a product called Natures Miracle. I get it at Petco. >my husband's semi-senile cat has generously >"christened" his favorite pair >of Wild Oats/Wild Soles RenFaire shoes... >so. >any hints as to how to get *that* cat smell out of the >leather? Margo Glenn-Lewis nomad@dcn.davis.ca.us Opal Sun Softweare "Don't forget your bucket." Ice Machine in the Desert/Brave Combo ------------------------------ dunham patricia r [77,27]CSuX:pendleton outlet? Subject: RE: H-COST: Pendleton outlet? From: DUNHAM Patricia R Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 09:33:00 -0700 - -Poster: DUNHAM Patricia R If it's where it WAS about 10 years ago, it's across the river in Vancouver, and east a tiny bit (like under a mile??... I'll go look at the phone book downstairs...), oh, well, not as close as I disremembered 8-), must not SEEM like much-- Washougal is a dot on the map, right on the road, but not big enough to get lost in (UNDERSTATEMENT!!!) OK, for the other traveler to Portland, too 8-) There's a Pendleton factory outlet in Washougal, which may be 15 miles east, you take the east highway exit AS YOU COME OFF THE BRIDGE!, if you blink, you miss it and get to take the next exit and futz around getting back to it. This is literaly, if you get clear down off the bridge approach on the Washington side, you have MISSED this exit-- but it's VERY clearly marked, you just have to be expecting it; the address is 2 17th (that's #2, 17th Street or Ave or whatever, the numbers are all that's in the phone book) Washougal (area?) 835-1118 There's also a Pendleton outlet IN Portland, on McLoughlin Blvd, which is a main thoroughfare, easy to find on any city map, it runs from Oregon City (on Hwy 205, SE of the city), north to the east side of the river, where it splits into a two-way grid -- Grand and Union, I think, that disappear around the Lloyd Center/Coliseum -- also a major landmark, exits from I-5, etc. 855 McLoughlin Blvd, 503-273-2786 oh, that would be near the down-town Portland end (if my note had the number right; check in the phone book when you get to town, if it was 855X then it's only about 12 blocks from Mill Ends?) And there's the Mill Ends store, also on McLoughlin, but at the Oregon City end, 9701 SE McLoughlin, 786-1234 The Pendleton store IN Portland (855) may have regular yardage, we don't usually stop there, as I recall, it's smallish and/or there's not much price advantage and/or the hours may be short??? The other two are remainders places so you can't tell what you're going to find, but the price MAY be great. It's been a while since I've been in Mill Ends, but as I recall they don't care much about natural fibers, have some, but no big deal. Mill Ends is quite large, the Washougal store is remainders from what's going on in the Washougal factory. Definitely call for hours at all of these. Good luck! Patricia R. Dunham - Eugene Public - 100 W 13th Ave - 97401 patricia.r.dunham@ci.eugene.or.us - 541-984-8321 http://204.203.17.34/library (EPL) <<<>>> http://members.aol.com/gerekr/medieval.html (home) ---------- | From: Margo Anderson | To: h-costume@world.std.com | Subject: H-COST: Pendleton outlet? | Date: Thursday, August 01, 1996 11:35PM | | -Poster: Margo Anderson | | Does anyone know where in Oregon the Pendleton Factory outlet store is, and | is it worth a side trip of thirty miles or so? I need to know by tomorrow | night, my mom is going to Oregon and there's a cloak's worth of wool in in | for me if I can give her the address! | | Thanks! | | Margo | | ------------------------------ henk t jong [28,28]CSuX:roar.mail et al Subject: Re: H-COST: RE: Roar.mail et al From: "Henk 't Jong" Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 17:49:59 +0200 - -Poster: "Henk 't Jong" Henk & Pauline 't Jong tScapreel Medieval Advisors Dordrecht, Netherlands Hi, > Well for Romans its not "mail" it's "lorica hamata"... for all you > H-Costumers, that is.. Suit yourself, but I think it's a mouthfull to talk about 'lorica hamata' all the time. In practice you probably mostly say mail as I heard the Dutch Roman re-enactors do all the time. > > And it isn't even "mail" its really "maille".. so there :p Nanananaaah! As if I did not know... And in middledutch it is 'Maelge' but we say 'malie' just the same. Ave, Henk ------------------------------ henk t jong [33,29]CSuX:h-cost; mail Subject: H-COST: H-COST; Re: Mail From: "Henk 't Jong" Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 17:58:08 +0200 - -Poster: "Henk 't Jong" Henk & Pauline 't Jong tScapreel Medieval Advisors Dordrecht, Netherlands Hi Shanda; You wrote: > I've seen it spelled "maille". Is this a french word, or just a funky > spelling someone came up with to make it seem more exotic? If it is > french in origin, what is the ctual translation? I was asked this by a > client recently, and didn't have an answer. In my etymological dictionay it says that the word is derived from Latin 'macula', which means the meshes of a net. Via Medieval latin (Maela, maillia= link in a chain, not the chain itself, mind) it cam to Middlefrench 'maille'. In Middledutch it was 'maille' at first, then 'maelge' and becam 'malie' at the end of the Middle Ages. I suppose during the same time (late 15th c) it became 'mail' in English. By then it had the meaning 'metal ring'. Hope this helps, Bye, Henk ------------------------------ henk t jong [21,30]CSuX:roar Subject: Re: H-COST: RE: Roar From: "Henk 't Jong" Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 18:51:50 +0200 - -Poster: "Henk 't Jong" Henk & Pauline 't Jong tScapreel Medieval Advisors Dordrecht, Netherlands Hi list, Albert wrote: > What about E-mail or E-chainmail? I guess E-chainmail is out as well, due to the fact that E-mail is not linked chainwise either, Bye, Henk ------------------------------ deb [20,31]CSuX:chicago: vogue fabrics sale till 8/16 Subject: H-COST: Chicago: Vogue fabrics sale till 8/16 From: Deb Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 17:53:28 -0500 - -Poster: Deb URGENT ;-) note for Chicagoland fabric-aholics: Vogue Fabrics is listed in the Chicago Tribune as having a sale until August 16. The store at 623-627 W Roosevelt is listed, with a phone number 312-829-2505 to get "other store locations" so I expect the Evanston store is also having the sale. (I don't recall anything further about its address.) Other fabrics which I didn't care about! I think maybe an emergency day off is in order .... <=========================================================> < Deb Baddorf baddorf@fnal.gov Costumer, RevWar re-enactor ------------------------------ mary-gayle jany [11,32]CSuX:something wrong with my access? Subject: H-COST: something wrong with my access? From: "Mary-Gayle Jany" Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 20:05:26 -0500 - -Poster: "Mary-Gayle Jany" Folks, sorry to post "other than costuming," but I've only received six messages from h-costume since Friday afternoon--an unheard of phenomenon in my 10 months on the list. I'm checking to see whether something has happened to my access or it's just been THAT slow these past few days. Thanks. Meg ------------------------------ karren schaeffer [8,33]CSuX:something wrong with my access? Subject: Re: H-COST: something wrong with my access? From: Karren Schaeffer Date: Mon, 04 Aug 1997 20:04:09 -0700 - -Poster: Karren Schaeffer Meg, I'm glad you asked about the low volume, I thought it was just me. Karren ------------------------------ michelle robertson [44,34]CSuX:h-cost; mail Subject: H-COST: H-COST; Re: Mail From: Michelle Robertson Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 08:16:29 -0400 (EDT) - -Poster: Michelle Robertson Maille is also the modern French word for a knit stitch, and a "maille a l'envers" (literally, reverse knit) is a purl stitch. However, "tricoter" is the modern French term for knitting, and the one used when describing knitted things. - - Michelle On Mon, 4 Aug 1997, Henk 't Jong wrote: > -Poster: "Henk 't Jong" > > Henk & Pauline 't Jong > tScapreel > Medieval Advisors > Dordrecht, Netherlands > > Hi Shanda; > > You wrote: > > I've seen it spelled "maille". Is this a french word, or just a funky > > spelling someone came up with to make it seem more exotic? If it is > > french in origin, what is the ctual translation? I was asked this by a > > client recently, and didn't have an answer. > > In my etymological dictionay it says that the word is derived from Latin > 'macula', which means the meshes of a net. Via Medieval latin (Maela, > maillia= link in a chain, not the chain itself, mind) it cam to > Middlefrench 'maille'. In Middledutch it was 'maille' at first, then > 'maelge' and becam 'malie' at the end of the Middle Ages. I suppose during > the same time (late 15th c) it became 'mail' in English. By then it had the > meaning 'metal ring'. > > Hope this helps, > > Bye, > > Henk ------------------------------ kelly rinne [31,35]CSuX:chicago: vogue fabrics sale till 8/16 Subject: Re: H-COST: Chicago: Vogue fabrics sale till 8/16 From: KELLY RINNE Date: Tue, 05 Aug 1997 07:38:34 -0500 - -Poster: KELLY RINNE Deb wrote: > > -Poster: Deb > > URGENT ;-) note for Chicagoland fabric-aholics: > > Vogue Fabrics is listed in the Chicago Tribune as having > a sale until August 16. The store at 623-627 W Roosevelt > is listed, with a phone number 312-829-2505 to get > "other store locations" so I expect the Evanston store > is also having the sale. (I don't recall anything further > about its address.) > > Quote: silks which normally cost up to $24 now at $5.99 > Linens which normally run up to $9.99 now to $4.99 > Other fabrics which I didn't care about! > > I think maybe an emergency day off is in order .... This sale is INSANE!!!! but well worth it, and yes, the Evaston store is included. Kel ------------------------------ End of h-costume-digest V1 #38 ****************************** h-costume-digest-approval@world.std.com (h-costume-digest)[43,36]CSuX:h-costume-digest v1 #39 Subject: h-costume-digest V1 #39 From: h-costume-digest-approval@world.std.com (h-costume-digest) Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 19:07:11 -0400 (EDT) h-costume-digest Friday, August 8 1997 Volume 01 : Number 039 In this issue: H-COST: Robin Hood hats H-COST: gems used on clothes Re: H-COST: Robin Hood hats H-COST: 20th C catalogue scan requests? Re: H-COST: Robin Hood hats H-COST: RPFN get-together? H-COST: Robin Hood H-COST: CORSETS, SF Bay Area, modest priced? RE: H-COST: RPFN get-together? Re: H-COST: H-COST; Re: Mail H-COST: list admin on vacation Re: H-COST: Robin Hood hats Re: H-COST: Re: 19th C photographs Re: H-COST: RPFN get-together? Re: H-COST: Re: 19th C photographs Re: H-COST: gems used on clothes H-COST: Re: 19th C photographs H-COST: FW: JOKE - Stress Relief (fwd) Re: H-COST: Re: 19th C photographs H-COST: Hair styling for various periods? H-COST: 1998 Event!!! H-COST: Hair braids/twists/etc. H-COST: Rust Removal H-COST: Victorian Tea Dress Question Re: H-COST: Hair styling for various periods? RE: H-COST: Hair braids/twists/etc. Re: H-COST: Robin Hood hats Re: H-COST: Hair styling - braids etc. Re: H-COST: Robin Hood hats Re: H-COST: Victorian Tea Dress Question H-COST: more on : Victorian Tea Dress Question Re: H-COST: Rust Removal H-COST: Opinions on Authors of h-costume books H-COST: Frock coat patterns ---------------------------------------------------------------------- morphis@niuhep.physics.niu.edu[19,37]CSuX:robin hood hats Subject: H-COST: Robin Hood hats From: morphis@niuhep.physics.niu.edu Date: Tue, 05 Aug 1997 08:40:48 CST6CDT5,M4.1.0,M10.5.0 - -Poster: morphis@niuhep.physics.niu.edu (If somebody can provide a period name I would be appreciative :) In a couple of different medieval hunting scenes I have seen what I can only describe as Robin Hood hats. Narrow, brim folded up at the back and extending out to a point in the front. The scenes I have seen (I didn't plan that, honest :) have had the front point extending about a foot in front of the head. I presume that is an exaguration? Does anybody know what they were likely made of? Or have a source for a pattern (assuming it isn't too difficult, I am strictly a beginner here)? How about a naturalistic picture of one? Robert Getting his feet wet... ------------------------------ kristi_why@ena-east.ericsson.se (kristi why)[17,38]CSuX:gems used on clothes Subject: H-COST: gems used on clothes From: Kristi_Why@ena-east.ericsson.se (Kristi Why) Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 10:14:09 -0400 - -Poster: Kristi_Why@ena-east.ericsson.se (Kristi Why) I was wondering if anyone could tell me if gems other than pearls were sewn directly onto clothes during the Elizabethan period? Elizabethan or 1400-1600 western Europe. I know that metal mountings were the norm but I have some rough faceted garnets that were made into beads and would like to use them. Thank you. Kristi Why ------------------------------ cynthia virtue [14,39]CSuX:robin hood hats Subject: Re: H-COST: Robin Hood hats From: Cynthia Virtue Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 08:55:58 -0700 (PDT) - -Poster: Cynthia Virtue I have seen a picture of a "robin hood hat" on a lady hunter in, I think, the Private Lives/Medieval book. The point of the hat projected at least 4 or 5 inches in front of her forehead, and her hair was looped over her ears in braids. I believe it was from a fresco, but as the book is at home and I am not, I could not say specifically. Cynthia ------------------------------ eric praetzel [11,40]CSuX:20th c catalogue scan requests? Subject: H-COST: 20th C catalogue scan requests? From: Eric Praetzel Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 12:00:56 -0400 (EDT) - -Poster: Eric Praetzel Hi all, I just acquired a 1927 Catalog (Eatons I believe) and a 1948 one. Does anyone have any requests for scans from these? Boots? Hats? Dresses? - Eric Praetzel, http://sca.uwaterloo.ca ------------------------------ henk t jong [29,41]CSuX:robin hood hats Subject: Re: H-COST: Robin Hood hats From: "Henk 't Jong" Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 19:57:30 +0200 - -Poster: "Henk 't Jong" Henk & Pauline 't Jong tScapreel Medieval Advisors Dordrecht, Netherlands > -Poster: Cynthia Virtue > > I have seen a picture of a "robin hood hat" on a lady hunter in, I think, > the Private Lives/Medieval book. The point of the hat projected at least > 4 or 5 inches in front of her forehead, and her hair was looped over her > ears in braids. > > I believe it was from a fresco, but as the book is at home and I am not, > I could not say specifically. > > Cynthia > __________ Did I miss something? I did not see the original mail on this; what is happening? Henk ------------------------------ margo anderson [33,42]CSuX:rpfn get-together? Subject: H-COST: RPFN get-together? From: Margo Anderson Date: Mon, 05 Aug 1996 11:10:03 -0700 - -Poster: Margo Anderson Hello everyone! I was wondering: Would any of the many members who participate in or attend the Rennaissance Pleasure Faire in Novato be interested in having a get together at the Faire? I'd prefer for this to be toward the end of the faire, rather than the beginning, as I will have to work on my new costume after the pay work is done. I'd thought of having this the same day as the costume contest, if there is one this year (Does anyone know?) but it seems to me that if a person is entering the contest and attending this meeting, that leaves very little time to enjoy the rest of the faire. Any comments? Finally, it may be possible to arrange for us to have this shindig in one of the faire's "enviromental areas" Tables! Seating! Maybe even shade!!!!) IF we are all in reasonably "approvable" costume. (an excellent costume FAQ is available if anyone needs it) If you're interested, please email me at wander@hooked.net and let me know which weekends you absolutely CAN'T make it; If you can come in costume; how many people you'll be bringing with you; and anything else you think I need to know. Thanks! Margo ------------------------------ cliff cheetham [17,43]CSuX:robin hood Subject: H-COST: Robin Hood From: Cliff Cheetham Date: Tue, 05 Aug 1997 21:24:08 +0100 - -Poster: Cliff Cheetham These hats are available in this country (England) and are made of felted wool - as are most hats. The long point at the front is an exageration, as is the style when taken to extremes as Robin Hood has no exact existance in space and time, either, and you have probably seen romanticised Victorian pictures. Best wishes, Sally Ann Chandler The Historical Clothing Company E-mail at c.cheetham@virgin.net ------------------------------ mzscahlett@aol.com[18,44]CSuX:corsets, sf bay area, modest priced? Subject: H-COST: CORSETS, SF Bay Area, modest priced? From: MzScahlett@aol.com Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 18:39:53 -0400 (EDT) - -Poster: MzScahlett@aol.com More questions re: Look Homeward Angel, circa 1914-16. Does anyone know of a source for corsets (ready made if that is even possible) that I could purchase for some of the actresses if they choose? This is high school and there is no budget. I just thought it might be nice to offer to some of the students to get the feel of the garments of the day. I do not need an elaborate affair, just something that will approximate a corset from that time. Were women still wearing corsets in 1914? Thanks in advance. Angela ------------------------------ amy wilson [56,45]CSuX:rpfn get-together? Subject: RE: H-COST: RPFN get-together? From: Amy Wilson Date: 05 Aug 97 19:59:03 -0500 - -Poster: Amy Wilson Aww, if you all do get together, kindly raise a glass in my absence. I spent three wonderful years living in the Bay Area and sang at the Faire all three years. I miss it greatly. Have fun!! :) Amy Wilson (now having a wonderful life in Western Pennsylvania) >-Poster: Margo Anderson > >Hello everyone! > >I was wondering: Would any of the many members who participate in or attend >the Rennaissance Pleasure Faire in Novato be interested in having a get >together at the Faire? > >I'd prefer for this to be toward the end of the faire, rather than the >beginning, as I will have to work on my new costume after the pay work is >done. I'd thought of having this the same day as the costume contest, if >there is one this year (Does anyone know?) but it seems to me that if a >person is entering the contest and attending this meeting, that leaves very >little time to enjoy the rest of the faire. Any comments? > >Finally, it may be possible to arrange for us to have this shindig in one of >the faire's "enviromental areas" Tables! Seating! Maybe even shade!!!!) IF >we are all in reasonably "approvable" costume. (an excellent costume FAQ is >available if anyone needs it) > >If you're interested, please email me at wander@hooked.net and let me know >which weekends you absolutely CAN'T make it; If you can come in costume; >how many people you'll be bringing with you; and anything else you think I >need to know. > >Thanks! > >Margo > > ------------------------------ robin findlay [25,46]CSuX:h-cost; mail Subject: Re: H-COST: H-COST; Re: Mail From: Robin Findlay Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 19:13:55 -0500 (CDT) - -Poster: Robin Findlay The computer program for fittingly sew is available again with new stuff. It is a pattern program I have been using for nearly two years. Best Wishes Robin ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Walter Robin Findlay Phone: 816-271-4452 Associate Professor of Theatre E-mail:findlay@griffon.mwsc.edu Missouri Western State College Fax: 816-232-0978 4525 Downs Drive Voice Mail: 816-387-3117 St. Joseph, Mo. 64507 is that all there is........ peggy lee - ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ eliz@world.std.com (elizabeth lear)[22,47]CSuX:list admin on vacation Subject: H-COST: list admin on vacation From: eliz@world.std.com (Elizabeth Lear) Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 00:35:17 -0400 - -Poster: eliz@world.std.com (Elizabeth Lear) I will be away until 8/19. While I'm away, messages will not go through to the list if any of these conditions is true: - the message is sent from an address that does not match an address susbcribed to the list - the message contains something in the first five lines of text that majordomo thinks might be a majordomo command - the message is excessively long If you send mail and it doesn't show up in a reasonable amount of time, check and see if any of the above caused it. Be good to each other, see you all after Pennsic. ...eliz ------------------------------ seamstrix@juno.com[20,48]CSuX:robin hood hats Subject: Re: H-COST: Robin Hood hats From: seamstrix@juno.com Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 20:34:12 -0700 - -Poster: seamstrix@juno.com I have here in my hot little hand the book "Dress in Medieval France" by Joan Evans. Illustation #27b in the back photorepro section contains an ivory mirror case from the middle of the 14th century. It too is a hunting/horseback scene where the woman is wearing a 'chapeau a bec'. There is a little accent mark over the 'a' but I don't know how to do that on my keyboard. For those of you who would like a literal translation it means 'beak hat'. Happy Hatting! Karen ------------------------------ egerds@aol.com[18,49]CSuX:19th c photographs Subject: Re: H-COST: Re: 19th C photographs From: EGerds@aol.com Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 09:13:47 -0400 (EDT) - -Poster: EGerds@aol.com In a message dated 97-07-25 17:48:50 EDT, rbarber@net-link.net writes: << > While people are making recommendations, I would like to enthusiastically > recommend "Dressed for the Photographer" (don't recall the author). >> I don't remember the author either, but it is published by Kent State, and is around $60.00. A wonderful book, AlterYears keeps it in stock. Liz Gerds, AlterYears Employee & Costume Addict ------------------------------ sue toorans [37,50]CSuX:rpfn get-together? Subject: Re: H-COST: RPFN get-together? From: Sue Toorans Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 07:29:24 -0700 (PDT) - -Poster: Sue Toorans On Mon, 5 Aug 1996, Margo Anderson wrote: > -Poster: Margo Anderson > > Hello everyone! > > I was wondering: Would any of the many members who participate in or attend > the Rennaissance Pleasure Faire in Novato be interested in having a get > together at the Faire? > > I'd prefer for this to be toward the end of the faire, rather than the > beginning, as I will have to work on my new costume after the pay work is > done. I'd thought of having this the same day as the costume contest, if > there is one this year (Does anyone know?) but it seems to me that if a (snip) > > Margo > This would be fun. I have been very interested in the question of the costume competition and when/if it is. Last I heard (about Tuesday of last week) Northern had not yet found a sponsor for the competition and they didn't seem willing to sponsor it themselves. I have gotten my information directly from the woman in charge of promotions. I've even approached my former CEO with the opportunity to sponsor the competition. He has no trouble saying "no". This rambling post is basically, "sure, let's get together", "there is no competition to date" and "we need to find the funding if they can't". Sue I am *NOT* a rabid feminist! I had my shots last year. ------------------------------ mzscahlett@aol.com[24,51]CSuX:19th c photographs Subject: Re: H-COST: Re: 19th C photographs From: MzScahlett@aol.com Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 13:37:47 -0400 (EDT) - -Poster: MzScahlett@aol.com In a message dated 97-08-06 09:29:39 EDT, EGerds@aol.com writes: << << > While people are making recommendations, I would like to enthusiastically > recommend "Dressed for the Photographer" (don't recall the author). >> I don't remember the author either, but it is published by Kent State, and is around $60.00. A wonderful book, AlterYears keeps it in stock. ************** Just purchased this book from Barnes & Noble and was absolutely thrilled. Each night before I go to bed, I read up on one of the fabulous photographs and their stories of women from long ago in wonderfull and feminine garb. A must for the serious (or simply passionate) costumer! Angela Lazear ------------------------------ glenn and shanda grieb [22,52]CSuX:gems used on clothes Subject: Re: H-COST: gems used on clothes From: Glenn and Shanda Grieb Date: Wed, 06 Aug 1997 13:42:08 -0500 - -Poster: Glenn and Shanda Grieb Please post your responses to the list. I am also very interested in the subject of embellishing Elizabethan clothing with jewels and beading. What is especially period, and what is not? Thank you, Shanda > I was wondering if anyone could tell me if gems other than pearls were > sewn directly onto clothes during the Elizabethan period? Elizabethan > or 1400-1600 western Europe. > > I know that metal mountings were the norm but I have some rough > faceted garnets that were made into beads and would like to use them. > > Thank you. > > Kristi Why ------------------------------ jennifer kubenka [18,53]CSuX:19th c photographs Subject: H-COST: Re: 19th C photographs From: "Jennifer Kubenka" Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 07:08:48 +0000 - -Poster: "Jennifer Kubenka" The complete information on "Dressed for the Photographer" is: Severa, Joan L. Dressed for the photographer : ordinary Americans and fashion, 1840-1900. Kent, Ohio : Kent State University Press, c1995. ISBN 0873385128 I just cataloged this book for SMU's Fine Arts Library. Really lovely... Jennifer D. Kubenka On 6 Aug 97 at 13:37, MzScahlett@aol.com wrote: ------------------------------ louise sugar [46,54]CSuX:joke - stress relief (fwd) Subject: H-COST: FW: JOKE - Stress Relief (fwd) From: Louise Sugar Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 10:27:00 -0400 - -Poster: Louise Sugar Off topic but somehow appropos lately Forwarded message: > > You might try the following method to relieve stress: > > Picture yourself near a stream. > > Birds are softly chirping in the crisp cool mountain air. > > Nothing can bother you here. No one knows this secret place. > > You are in total seclusion from that place called "the world." > > The soothing sound of a gentle waterfall fills the air with a cascade of > serenity. > > The water is clear. The brook gurgles and the air is cool... > > You can easily make out the face of the person whose head you're holding > under the water. > > Look! It's the person who caused you all this stress in the first place. > > What a pleasant surprise. You let them up... just for a quick breath...then > *splosh slosh*!... back under they go... > > Allow yourself as many deep breaths as you want. > > There, now... feeling better? > ---------------- > > DISCLAIMER: > The above words in no way express the opinion of the sender or his > employer, but they are funny! > > > ------------------------------ mzscahlett@aol.com[23,55]CSuX:19th c photographs Subject: Re: H-COST: Re: 19th C photographs From: MzScahlett@aol.com Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 12:50:41 -0400 (EDT) - -Poster: MzScahlett@aol.com In a message dated 97-08-07 03:39:37 EDT, MzScahlett@aol.com writes: << I don't remember the author either, but it is published by Kent State, and is around $60.00. A wonderful book, AlterYears keeps it in stock. ************** Just purchased this book from Barnes & Noble and was absolutely thrilled. Each night before I go to bed, I read up on one of the fabulous photographs and their stories of women from long ago in wonderfull and feminine garb. A must for the serious (or simply passionate) costumer! Angela Lazear >> I didn't realize that you had both forgotten the author's name. It is Joan Severa ------------------------------ curiouser and curiouser! [27,56]CSuX:hair styling for various periods? Subject: H-COST: Hair styling for various periods? From: Curiouser and curiouser! Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 11:38:47 -0700 (PDT) - -Poster: Curiouser and curiouser! I know this has been asked before, but I'm going to ask again I'm looking for a good book for doing *one's own* hair for various periods. I do everything from Elizabethan to 1940's, and I have waist length hair. The vintage books on hair I've seen all seem to assume a lot of tools/ladies' maids/time I just don't have. And a lot of the modern books assume I've got a chin length bob that I want to style for the office... I'd like to find a good book for doing your own braids, twists, rolls etc for long hair, targetted to a modern audience, that I can adapt the styles from easily. Any recommendations? I just spent 1/2 an hour on amazon.com but nothing popped out at me. .heather.meadows alice@wonderland.com ------------------------------ broneske [39,57]CSuX:1998 event!!! Subject: H-COST: 1998 Event!!! From: Broneske Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 21:22:12 -0700 - -Poster: Broneske Hi everyone, Well, I can't hold it back anymore. I know it is still kind of early to = start thinking about 1998 events, but this one you can't miss! (I'm a volunteer on the committee, Yeaaaa!) http://dottie.sna.com/goldrush To help kick off California's three year celebration of it's = sesquicentennial, The California State Railroad Museum Foundation will = be holding a symposium and workshops on California Gold Rush Living = History on January 9, 10 and 11, 1998 at the Old Sacramento State = Historic Park. This symposium will provide information about mid-19th century = California history, lifestyles, material culture, clothing, textiles, = language, music, food, games, skills and business techniques, to create = a shared base of accurate historical information about this era in = California's history. The three-day event will feature two pre-symposium tour packages, a = variety of speakers to cover such topics as alternative women's = clothing, gold rush medicine, daguerreotypes, gambling, gold panning and = many more. On Friday, there will be a sumptuous banquet with live music, = period dancing and gambling and a costume contest, and on Saturday, a = theatre night at the Eagle Theatre, featuring period entertainment. For further information on rates, times or a registration package, = please contact the California State Railroad Museum Foundation at (916) = 323-1260, e-mail: csrmf@csrmf.org or write to Gold Rush Symposium, CA = State Railroad Museum, 111 I Street, Sacramento, CA 95814. Please visit = us on the web at http://dottie.sna.com/goldrush. ------------------------------ leslie helms [22,58]CSuX:hair braids/twists/etc. Subject: H-COST: Hair braids/twists/etc. From: Leslie Helms Date: Fri, 08 Aug 1997 01:02:31 -0700 - -Poster: Leslie Helms Aha! I have the answer, and I saw it in a toy store. There were two really fine, in-depth books on hair braiding in the rack with The Klutz Books. (They make the books on juggling, hackey sack, knot tying, etc. that are great for kids or for grownups who like simple instructions!) I think these books were also by the Klutz company. If you can't find these, e-mail me and I'll go check at the toy store and get the details. (I'm not in town this week, and wanted to post this before it fell out of my brain along with everything else...) They had the largest variety of hair treatments I've seen, with good directions. Leslie leslieh@canfield.com p.s. My own hair is very short on one side, shoulder-length on the other side... I haven't seen any good ideas yet for doing something historical with it! ------------------------------ sustre@pixelations.com (sustre)[23,59]CSuX:rust removal Subject: H-COST: Rust Removal From: sustre@pixelations.com (Sustre) Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 08:43:37 -0500 - -Poster: sustre@pixelations.com (Sustre) The active ingredient in most rust removers is oxalic acid. (I was a chem major and a professor and I analyzed some out of curiosity!) It works instantly, but can damage fibers if left on. Get some of the crystals. Use hot water (it needs heat)- not boiling, hot from a tap is fine. Put the area in the hot water and immediately sprinkle the crystals over it- or make a paste of the crystals, put it on the stain and drip hot water on it. Rub gently so the chemical gets into the fibers. The change should be instant. then RINSE!!!!!! I've gotten out almost all of *very* dark rust stains this way, and noticed no problem with the fabric, personally- but I rinsed many, many times. Good luck!!!! - -Sustre ------------------------------ shannon moyes [22,60]CSuX:victorian tea dress question Subject: H-COST: Victorian Tea Dress Question From: Shannon Moyes Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 07:44:02 -0600 (MDT) - -Poster: Shannon Moyes Hi all, I am new to this list and would like some help with a gown that I want to turn into a Wedding Dress. My fiance are having a "Victorian Wedding." I have done lots of 1400 and 1500 costuming but nothing from the 1800's. The dress can be found in a book that is a collection of fashion plates from Harpers Bazar. It is a tea dress from Paris. The trick is that it says that the front is "seemless". This means that all of the shaping must be done vi darts, but because it is a fashion plate they have not shown where the darts are on the dress. I have looked in Amazon and Alter Years and can find no patern to work from and am desperately looking for ideas and assistance. Thank You, Shannon Moyes ------------------------------ asia reva poppers [31,61]CSuX:hair styling for various periods? Subject: Re: H-COST: Hair styling for various periods? From: Asia Reva Poppers Date: Fri, 08 Aug 1997 10:31:52 -0400 - -Poster: Asia Reva Poppers At 11:38 AM 8/7/97 -0700, Curiouser and curiouser! wrote: >-Poster: Curiouser and curiouser! > > I'd like to find a good book for doing your own braids, twists, rolls > etc for long hair, targetted to a modern audience, that I can adapt > the styles from easily. > > Any recommendations? I just spent 1/2 an hour on amazon.com but > nothing popped out at me. I once saw a book that had great instructions for basic braids, twisted ponytails and, I think, acouple of styles of knots or buns, but I can't remember the exact title. It was in the style of the "klutz" books, and may have been one--you know, "Braiding for Klutzes" or some such. It was written for a younger audience--like preteen--but it had great instructions for doing these things on yourself, and as a bonus, came with an assortment of hair accessories. I think I found it in a toystore--one of the ones which specializes in educational toys, perhaps. Does anyone recognize the book I'm talking about? - --Asia ------------------------------ dunham patricia r [57,62]CSuX:hair braids/twists/etc. Subject: RE: H-COST: Hair braids/twists/etc. From: DUNHAM Patricia R Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 08:48:00 -0700 - -Poster: DUNHAM Patricia R OCLC sez: (no ISBN found) Johnson, Anne Akers. Braids & bows / Anne Akers Johnson & Robin Stoneking. Palo Alto, CA (2121 Staunton Court, Palo Alto 94306) : Klutz Press, c1992. 73 p. : col. ill. ; 18 x 24 cm. Listed as a Juvenile. *************** Hair : a book of braiding and styles / Anne Akers Johnson ; [principal photography by Peter Fox and Thomas Heinser]. Palo Alto, CA : Klutz Press, c1995. 71 p. : col. ill. ; 20 x 22 cm. Not considered a Juvenile. Patricia R. Dunham - Eugene Public - 100 W 13th Ave - 97401 patricia.r.dunham@ci.eugene.or.us - 541-984-8321 http://204.203.17.34/library (EPL) <<<>>> http://members.aol.com/gerekr/medieval.html (home) ---------- | From: Leslie Helms | To: h-costume@world.std.com; alice@wonderland.com | Subject: H-COST: Hair braids/twists/etc. | Date: Friday, August 08, 1997 1:02AM | | -Poster: Leslie Helms | | Aha! I have the answer, and I saw it in a toy store. | | There were two really fine, in-depth books on hair braiding in the rack | with The Klutz Books. (They make the books on juggling, hackey sack, knot | tying, etc. that are great for kids or for grownups who like simple | instructions!) I think these books were also by the Klutz company. If you | can't find these, e-mail me and I'll go check at the toy store and get the | details. (I'm not in town this week, and wanted to post this before it | fell out of my brain along with everything else...) They had the largest | variety of hair treatments I've seen, with good directions. | | Leslie | leslieh@canfield.com | | p.s. My own hair is very short on one side, shoulder-length on the other | side... I haven't seen any good ideas yet for doing something historical | with it! | ------------------------------ henk t jong [34,63]CSuX:robin hood hats Subject: Re: H-COST: Robin Hood hats From: "Henk 't Jong" Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 18:12:33 +0200 - -Poster: "Henk 't Jong" Henk & Pauline 't Jong tScapreel Medieval Advisors Dordrecht, Netherlands Hello List-persons, Karen wrote: > I have here in my hot little hand the book "Dress in Medieval France" by > Joan Evans. > Illustation #27b in the back photorepro section contains an ivory mirror > case from the > middle of the 14th century. It too is a hunting/horseback scene where the > woman is wearing a 'chapeau a bec'. There is a little accent mark over > the 'a' but I don't know how to do that on my keyboard. For those of you > who would like a literal translation it > means 'beak hat'. To add: during the 13th and 14th centuries it was called in middlefrench and -english: 'chapel a bec', not chapeau. I have not found the word chapeau (without 'a bec') before the end of the 15th c, but perhaps David can correct me here. It was also called 'chapel(l)et' = little hat. All these words go back to Latin 'cappa' = cap as in 'hood'. In German and Dutch it was just called 'huot' or 'hoet, huet, hoot' (reminds us of 'hood', doesn't it?), without the 'bec' part. Bye, Henk ------------------------------ fred struthers [15,64]CSuX:hair styling - braids etc. Subject: Re: H-COST: Hair styling - braids etc. From: Fred Struthers Date: Fri, 08 Aug 1997 09:13:55 -0800 - -Poster: Fred Struthers I list a book in BOOKS ON CLOTH (my catalog for out-of -print and hard-to-find costume & textiles books) called ALL NEW BEAUTIFUL BRAIDS by MAry Beth Janssen-Fleischman. It is the most recent in her series of how-to, step-by-step hair braiding books. THis might help you. She gives directions for chinons, twists, etc. It's $10. Fred Struthers fsbks.mcn.org ------------------------------ kerri canepa [45,65]CSuX:robin hood hats Subject: Re: H-COST: Robin Hood hats From: Kerri Canepa Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 09:50:32 -0800 (ADT) - -Poster: Kerri Canepa On Fri, 8 Aug 1997, Henk 't Jong wrote: > -Poster: "Henk 't Jong" > > Henk & Pauline 't Jong > tScapreel > Medieval Advisors > Dordrecht, Netherlands > > Hello List-persons, > > Karen wrote: > > I have here in my hot little hand the book "Dress in Medieval France" by > > Joan Evans. > > Illustation #27b in the back photorepro section contains an ivory mirror > > case from the > > middle of the 14th century. It too is a hunting/horseback scene where the > > woman is wearing a 'chapeau a bec'. There is a little accent mark over > > the 'a' but I don't know how to do that on my keyboard. For those of you > > who would like a literal translation it > > means 'beak hat'. > > To add: during the 13th and 14th centuries it was called in middlefrench > and -english: 'chapel a bec', not chapeau. I have not found the word > chapeau (without 'a bec') before the end of the 15th c, but perhaps David > can correct me here. It was also called 'chapel(l)et' = little hat. All > these words go back to Latin 'cappa' = cap as in 'hood'. In German and > Dutch it was just called 'huot' or 'hoet, huet, hoot' (reminds us of > 'hood', doesn't it?), without the 'bec' part. > > Bye, > > Henk I'm assuming then, that this hat was used in outdoor, informal settings? That seems to be the context in which it appears in artwork. Kerri ------------------------------ rognstad sylvia [40,66]CSuX:victorian tea dress question Subject: Re: H-COST: Victorian Tea Dress Question From: Rognstad Sylvia Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 11:49:09 -0600 (MDT) - -Poster: Rognstad Sylvia Shannon, Which book do you have? I have "Victorian Fashions and Costumes from Harpers Bazaar 1867-1898" and found a Worth tea gown in it. Is this the one you're referring to? If so, I would assume that it has long darts in the front that go from under the bust to the hip area. BTW, I notice you go to school in Colorado. Which school? Do they have a costume shop in their theatre dept that you might find someone to help you with patterning? If not, I'm in Boulder, if that isn't too far. You can e-mail me privately if you want more assistance. Sylvia R. On Fri, 8 Aug 1997, Shannon Moyes wrote: > -Poster: Shannon Moyes > > Hi all, > > I am new to this list and would like some help with a gown that I want to > turn into a Wedding Dress. My fiance are having a "Victorian Wedding." I > have done lots of 1400 and 1500 costuming but nothing from the 1800's. > The dress can be found in a book that is a collection of fashion plates > from Harpers Bazar. It is a tea dress from Paris. The trick is that it > says that the front is "seemless". This means that all of the shaping > must be done vi darts, but because it is a fashion plate they have not > shown where the darts are on the dress. I have looked in Amazon and Alter > Years and can find no patern to work from and am desperately looking for > ideas and assistance. > > Thank You, > > Shannon Moyes > > ------------------------------ shannon moyes [20,67]CSuX:more on : victorian tea dress question Subject: H-COST: more on : Victorian Tea Dress Question From: Shannon Moyes Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 12:59:47 -0600 (MDT) - -Poster: Shannon Moyes Ok, clarification: I don't have the book infront of me so here we go: The book: Victorian Fashions and Costumes from Harpers Bazaar 1867-1898 The Dress: From the late 1890's A close fitting dress with a simple close fit and a clear jaccard pattern It has a floor length over dress that is like a "vest" (no sleaves, open front that is made of a single color fabric. Very eligant a simple in look. I hope that this helps. I can get everyone the page # this evening when I get home. I want to thank everyone for their responces, the interest is just great!! Shannon ------------------------------ agnes gawne [25,68]CSuX:rust removal Subject: Re: H-COST: Rust Removal From: Agnes Gawne Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 12:22:05 -0700 (PDT) - -Poster: Agnes Gawne On Fri, 8 Aug 1997, Sustre wrote: > -Poster: sustre@pixelations.com (Sustre) > > The active ingredient in most rust removers is oxalic acid. (I was a chem > major and a professor and I analyzed some out of curiosity!) It works > instantly, but can damage fibers if left on. > PERHAPS This would explain why the salt/lemon/lay on the grass method sometimes works better than other times - If there is clover in the grass then there is oxalis - I'm no chemist, just wondering why it sometimes worked better than others. My grandmother swore all you had to do was wet rust stains and lay it on the grass on a sunny day - but she was from Ireland and all their grass is full of clover and shamrocks (oxalis city!!) The things we learn in life... Agnes ------------------------------ morphis@niuhep.physics.niu.edu[20,69]CSuX:opinions on authors of h-costume books Subject: H-COST: Opinions on Authors of h-costume books From: morphis@niuhep.physics.niu.edu Date: Fri, 08 Aug 1997 15:40:10 CST6CDT5,M4.1.0,M10.5.0 - -Poster: morphis@niuhep.physics.niu.edu Hi, I have been digging through a number of costuming books looking for information about medieval clothing. A number of authors use pictures from contemporary artwork but some have drawings that they appear to have made themselves. One of the most prolific is Wilcox who has written a number of books titled "Mode in ..." shoes, gloves, etc. Another writer is Calthrop who wrote "English Costumes", published in 1906. I was wondering what the opinion of the list was of these authors if y'all have run into them. Thanks, Robert ------------------------------ kidzazou@webtv.net (joseph keller)[15,70]CSuX:frock coat patterns Subject: H-COST: Frock coat patterns From: Kidzazou@webtv.net (Joseph Keller) Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 18:06:57 -0500 - -Poster: Kidzazou@webtv.net (Joseph Keller) Hello Everyone, I have just read a review that the company that made my 1830's men's frock coat pattern puts out patterns of questionable accuracy. I am needing to know if anyone can direct me to a pattern source of early to mid 19th century men's fashions. I am familiar with Amazon Drygoods but am looking for a coat with a flaired skirt. Thanks! ------------------------------ End of h-costume-digest V1 #39 ****************************** h-costume-digest-approval@world.std.com (h-costume-digest)[40,71]CSuX:h-costume-digest v1 #40 Subject: h-costume-digest V1 #40 From: h-costume-digest-approval@world.std.com (h-costume-digest) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 16:57:30 -0400 (EDT) h-costume-digest Monday, August 11 1997 Volume 01 : Number 040 In this issue: Re: H-COST: Rust Removal H-COST: List problem? Re: H-COST: List problem? Re: H-COST: List problem? H-COST: What everyone else is doing Re: H-COST: List problem? Re: H-COST: What everyone else is doing Re: H-COST: Victorian Tea Dress Question Re: H-COST: What everyone else is doing Re: H-COST: What everyone else is doing H-COST: Kirtle & Sideless gown Re: H-COST: What Everyone is up to H-COST: robin hood hats and 14thC art and fashion Re: H-COST: What everyone else is doing Re: H-COST: What everyone else is doing Re: H-COST: What everyone else is doing Re: H-COST: Kirtle & Sideless gown H-COST: A small question H-COST: Victorian Tea Dress-Pg # Re: H-COST: What everyone else is doing Re: H-COST: What everyone else is doing H-COST: Summer Vacation Re: H-COST: What everyone else is doing Re: H-COST: What everyone else is doing Re: H-COST: What everyone else is doing Re: H-COST: What Everyone is up to Re: H-COST: What everyone else is doing H-COST: Summer vacation H-COST: H-Cost: summer projects Re: H-COST: What Everyone is up to RE: H-COST: Victorian Tea Dress-Pg # ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ccary@tiara.engr.sgi.com (christina cary)[47,72]CSuX:rust removal Subject: Re: H-COST: Rust Removal From: ccary@tiara.engr.sgi.com (Christina Cary) Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 16:40:13 -0700 - -Poster: ccary@tiara.engr.sgi.com (Christina Cary) I get my oxalic acid from the local hardware store. I go in and say to the guy behind the counter, "Rust remover?" and he says "Sure," and brings me a little brown plastic bottle of "Whink" and I pay him $3.29 plus tax and go home. Works like a dream. Interesting about the clover--but if you live in an urban area, as I do (and have no clover!), forget about the lemon juice etc. and just buy Whink. Christina On Aug 8, 12:22pm, Agnes Gawne wrote: > Subject: Re: H-COST: Rust Removal > -Poster: Agnes Gawne > > On Fri, 8 Aug 1997, Sustre wrote: > > > -Poster: sustre@pixelations.com (Sustre) > > > > The active ingredient in most rust removers is oxalic acid. (I was a chem > > major and a professor and I analyzed some out of curiosity!) It works > > instantly, but can damage fibers if left on. > > > PERHAPS This would explain why the salt/lemon/lay on the grass method > sometimes > works better than other times - If there is clover in the grass then > there is oxalis - I'm no chemist, just wondering why it sometimes worked > better than others. My grandmother swore all you had to do was wet rust > stains and lay it on the grass on a sunny day - but she was from Ireland and all > their grass is full of clover and shamrocks (oxalis city!!) > > The things we learn in life... > Agnes > >-- End of excerpt from Agnes Gawne - -- Christina Cary (ccary@sgi.com) - ---------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ broneske [11,73]CSuX:list problem? Subject: H-COST: List problem? From: Broneske Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 12:08:11 -0700 - -Poster: Broneske Is the list just slow lately, or is there a problem? Just wondering as there has been hardly anything in the last few days. Joan B. ------------------------------ legixhis@electriciti.com (mcquinn/richards)[23,74]CSuX:list problem? Subject: Re: H-COST: List problem? From: legixhis@electriciti.com (McQuinn/Richards) Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 14:18:55 -0800 - -Poster: legixhis@electriciti.com (McQuinn/Richards) >-Poster: Broneske > >Is the list just slow lately, or is there a problem? > >Just wondering as there has been hardly anything in the last few days. > >Joan B. I think it's due to the warm weather. People just aren't wearing any kind of costume at all right now. Kind of hard to talk about nothing..... Sean Roman Reenactment, Legio IX Hispana http://www.inetworld.net/~cian/legioix.html ------------------------------ morghana@aol.com[23,75]CSuX:list problem? Subject: Re: H-COST: List problem? From: Morghana@aol.com Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 18:32:13 -0400 (EDT) - -Poster: Morghana@aol.com In a message dated 97-08-09 15:38:30 EDT, unicorn@softcom.net (Broneske) writes: << Is the list just slow lately, or is there a problem? Just wondering as there has been hardly anything in the last few days. >> I've been assuming its the standard summer doldrums.... and the SCA members are probably all off to Pennsic... and for many of us, RenFaire season is about to start and there are all those last minute "projects" to do.... :::grin::: Other than that, what's up with the rest of the list? I know the two groups mentioned above aren't ALL of you.... :) ~Morghana (Studying and sewing, studying and sewing...... ) ------------------------------ kidzazou@webtv.net (joseph keller)[13,76]CSuX:what everyone else is doing Subject: H-COST: What everyone else is doing From: Kidzazou@webtv.net (Joseph Keller) Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 18:16:02 -0500 - -Poster: Kidzazou@webtv.net (Joseph Keller) Howdy folks, I am a Civilian Civil War Reenactor and a costumer specializing in Victorian and early 19th century men's and ladie's fashions. Getting ready for Halloween ranks top priority too. While it's kind of quiet on this newsgroup, what is everyone else doing for Halloween? As for me, it's Interview With the Vampire, circa 1830's. Just seeing if a little conversation might be drummed up. ------------------------------ margo anderson [16,77]CSuX:list problem? Subject: Re: H-COST: List problem? From: Margo Anderson Date: Fri, 09 Aug 1996 17:43:27 -0700 - -Poster: Margo Anderson . and for many of us, RenFaire season is >about to start and there are all those last minute "projects" to do.... > And, for some of us, there's the problem that the trim for the latest project is sitting in a UPS truck somewhere...:-( Margo (who is going to buy *more* trim locally tommorow.) ------------------------------ karren schaeffer [30,78]CSuX:what everyone else is doing Subject: Re: H-COST: What everyone else is doing From: Karren Schaeffer Date: Sat, 09 Aug 1997 19:56:01 -0700 - -Poster: Karren Schaeffer Well, one of my three business ventures is as a wedding consultant. Watch for my ad in the upcoming h-costume resource book. Well, we have two huge bridal fairs this month on top of weddings and talking to new clients for next summer. In this business we are always talking about weddings a year away and my calendar is filling up already in 1999. As for Halloween, I don't but my niece wants me to create "Sailor Moon" characters for her and her friends. For those not in the know (like the aunt here) this is a hot comic strip and animated video from Japan. She sent me video clips and pictures by e-mail. Being a good aunt has suddenly mushroomed into doing a half dozen different costumes, all is different sizes and colors of course. Shouldn't be too hard, it is basically a skating costume with a pleated skirt, wired or severely stiffened petal sleeve variations and sailor colors, trimmed with huge bows and each has a different "weapon". Oh did I neglect to mention knee high heeled boots in bright colors, laced up the front? Think Xena meets catholic girls school uniform designed for Tanya Harding. Ah, but she is certain it is soooo cool. I am looking forward to a week trout fishing, where there is no beeper, and no one smells of wedding cake frosting or stargazer lillies. Happy designing, Karren ------------------------------ albertcat@aol.com[15,79]CSuX:victorian tea dress question Subject: Re: H-COST: Victorian Tea Dress Question From: AlbertCat@aol.com Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 23:37:22 -0400 (EDT) - -Poster: AlbertCat@aol.com 99.9% of all gowns between 1840-1899 are what I call "double darted" in the front. This means the bodice has 2 darts on either side of CF that are about 3/4" to 1 1/2" apart at the waist then gradually spread apart as they approach the bust so they are maybe 3" to 3 1/2" apart by the time they reach the bust point level [they usually stop just above this level. In the middle bustle period when the princess line comes in, these 2 darts will extend to the hips level where they end. [I'll do an illustration & attach it in a file to this letter.] This is VERY COMMON in the Victorian era. Often a short bone is slipped in the seam allowance of the dart or a single bone may be placed between the 2 darts. It's a lovely line. ------------------------------ barbara shuwarger [18,80]CSuX:what everyone else is doing Subject: Re: H-COST: What everyone else is doing From: barbara shuwarger Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 08:43:16 -0700 (PDT) - -Poster: barbara shuwarger I have been totally immersed in medieval music. I play the vielle which is an ancestor of the violin. I will be going to Provence in 3 weeks to study troubadour and trouvere song (secular music of the 12th-14th centuries) at a workshop being given in a tiny village by the memebers of the Boston Camerata. Then we will travel around south west France. Does anyone have any sites to recommend that would be useful for an historic costumer? Barbara ------------------------------ lukelep@neca.com[36,81]CSuX:what everyone else is doing Subject: Re: H-COST: What everyone else is doing From: lukelep@neca.com Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 13:33:26 -0400 (EDT) - -Poster: lukelep@neca.com Hi Folks! I think one reason the newsgroup has been a little quieter the past week or so is that a number of SCA members are off at the Pennsic war right now. It's also high season on the reenactment circuit too, so I expect people are either away, feverishly sewing or taking a well earned break from it all. I imagine in the cold months, when the newsgroup is all at each others throats again, we will wish it was this quiet. BTW, I am working on a uniform for the Duke of York and Albany's Maritime Regt. of Foot, ca. 1666. It's mustard yellow lined red, with red breeches - I know I will feel like a walking condiment tray. Thankfully there are no green accoutrements or I'd feel like I had the relish too! Cheers! Luke >-Poster: Kidzazou@webtv.net (Joseph Keller) > >Howdy folks, I am a Civilian Civil War Reenactor and a costumer >specializing in Victorian and early 19th century men's and ladie's >fashions. >Getting ready for Halloween ranks top priority too. >While it's kind of quiet on this newsgroup, what is everyone else doing >for Halloween? As for me, it's Interview With the Vampire, circa >1830's. >Just seeing if a little conversation might be drummed up. ------------------------------ faireygirl@aol.com[19,82]CSuX:kirtle & sideless gown Subject: H-COST: Kirtle & Sideless gown From: FaireyGirl@aol.com Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 15:37:17 -0400 (EDT) - -Poster: FaireyGirl@aol.com Dear List, I am attemting to make a late 14th century Kirtle and Sideless gown and the pattern I am using is Costume Connection #1406W. I have read the directions and it looks extremely easy, but I am completely lost as to why it calls for a zipper, buttons or hook and eyes. Also, what type of material should I make this out of? This is not my normal time period, but I think I can safely say that the above notions are definately out of the question. I don't need it to bee 100% historically accurate, but I don't want it took look like I bought this from the Halloween Shoppe either. Any help would be appreciated. Saya ------------------------------ fred struthers [31,83]CSuX:what everyone is up to Subject: Re: H-COST: What Everyone is up to From: Fred Struthers Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 16:40:56 -0800 - -Poster: Fred Struthers Hello everybody: I am gardening these days and preparing my next catalog for September. Am appreciating the light traffic on h-costume -- a vacation of sorts. Like most everyone om the list, my interest is professional, but not that of a costumer. I'm reading and very occasionally participating when a definition or fact-check might be required by someone and I have a reference at hand, in my stock, and close by. My business keeps me busy all day and I can't afford to spend much time otherwise. I appreciate the time I do spend in front of the screen, reading the group here -- have learned a great deal and have enormous respect for the community of costume enthusiasts h-costume represents. I've also learned just what it is the folks here are looking for in the way of books! I came into my field as a costume & textile books seller, having been an abstract painter. Six years ago I turned forty, & looking for a business to buy, here in our village by the sea in Mendocino, California I met RL Shep, publisher. I took over his out of print bookselling business and now I distribute his books as well. Needless to say I no longer paint, but I do look at beautiful books all day long and that has its rewards! My current favorite by far, right now, is DRESSED FOR THE PHOTOGRAPHER by Joan Severa - a really special, entertaining work of art on all fronts -- I admire so much the author's scholarship and her respectful regard toward the long-ago departed subjects of her study. Adios Fred Struthers ------------------------------ petrick/ghazli [18,84]CSuX:robin hood hats and 14thc art and fashion Subject: H-COST: robin hood hats and 14thC art and fashion From: Petrick/Ghazli Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 18:24:33 +0100 - -Poster: Petrick/Ghazli An altarpiece that I am madly studying has oneof these cute little hats. It's dated 1336 or so, from Sienna. Does anyone know when we first start seeing this style, and then again when it seems to be at it's height? I just read, by the way, an article by the very respected art historian Luciano Bellosi who attempts to put a little chronological order into the Assisi frescoes by studying the neckline fashions from 1300-1330, and then dating accordingly. Hurrah for the history of textiles! Vicki-Marie Petrick The Sorbonne. ------------------------------ albertcat@aol.com[11,85]CSuX:what everyone else is doing Subject: Re: H-COST: What everyone else is doing From: AlbertCat@aol.com Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 20:54:13 -0400 (EDT) - -Poster: AlbertCat@aol.com My project is a TV miniseries called "The Wedding". The designer is Edwardo Castro who did the film "Kuma Sutra". I get to make some 1950's upper crust at Martha's Vinyard dresses for Hallie Berry & Lynn Whitfeild....2 beautiful thin thin thin women. Sounds like fun?.......Well not really. We have no time to get things ready & will be working, like, 15 hour days.[we already have] Ugggh! The series also has flashbacks to the 1880's, 1910's & 1920's. ------------------------------ kerri canepa [32,86]CSuX:what everyone else is doing Subject: Re: H-COST: What everyone else is doing From: Kerri Canepa Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 17:23:53 -0800 (ADT) - -Poster: Kerri Canepa On Sun, 10 Aug 1997, barbara shuwarger wrote: > -Poster: barbara shuwarger > > > I have been totally immersed in medieval music. I play the vielle > which is an ancestor of the violin. I will be going to Provence in 3 weeks > to study troubadour and trouvere song (secular music of the 12th-14th > centuries) at a workshop being given in a tiny > village by the memebers of the Boston Camerata. > > Then we will travel around south west France. Does anyone have any sites > to recommend that would be useful for an historic costumer? > > Barbara > > > Can't help you with attractions in Southern France but I can envy you your involvement with medieval music. Used to be in a Renaissance band back in the college years - played a variety of krummhorns and recorders mostly. That was a truly magical time and one that I miss. One of these days I may have the opportunity to get back into it. Have a blast! Kerri ------------------------------ seamstrix@juno.com[15,87]CSuX:what everyone else is doing Subject: Re: H-COST: What everyone else is doing From: seamstrix@juno.com Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 23:24:54 -0700 - -Poster: seamstrix@juno.com Hello, Actually I've been wearing costumes all summer. I'm in Elizabeth's Court (Guild of St. George) at Bristol RenFaire here in the beautiful, exotic mid-west. I've just been too busy trying not to melt inside my own portable sauna to write much on the list. Who thought an Elizabethan Faire in the middle of summer was a good idea?! Karen ------------------------------ seamstrix@juno.com[20,88]CSuX:kirtle & sideless gown Subject: Re: H-COST: Kirtle & Sideless gown From: seamstrix@juno.com Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 23:38:22 -0700 - -Poster: seamstrix@juno.com Hi there.... Although 14th century is not a primary area of interest, I have done some studying in this period. The reason for the fastenings is that a proper 14th century(Upper-class) kirtle would be rather snug fitting. The era of tailoring was just beginning and for the first time, clothing was actually being cut and tailored to fit the human form. Scandalous! Unless the body you are fitting is rather tubular, you will need some sort of fastening to pull it in tight. I would recommend either buttons down center front, or lacing up the back or sides. Hooks&eyes are very old as fastenings, you may not want to discount them entirely, I know they were in use by the 1500's. Karen ------------------------------ elizabeth higgins [22,89]CSuX:a small question Subject: H-COST: A small question From: Elizabeth Higgins Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 13:22:12 +0100 - -Poster: Elizabeth Higgins Hi All, Just a small question for a newbie to the list. I am having a reproduction Victorian costume from the second bustle era made and I have a question. The drawers that were worn at that time, were they loose in the leg or were they gathered up by a drawstring just below the knee? I want this costume to be as true to the originals as I can possibly get. BTW does anybody know of any society in the UK that I can wear this kind od costume too? Lissa PS I know that's not the name on the header but it's what everybody calls me (well I refuse to answer to Liz! ) ------------------------------ shannon moyes [24,90]CSuX:victorian tea dress-pg # Subject: H-COST: Victorian Tea Dress-Pg # From: Shannon Moyes Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 08:04:40 -0600 (MDT) - -Poster: Shannon Moyes Hi all, Several people have asked me to indicate the page number and book of the dress. So, the book is Harper's Bazar 1860-1898, page 233. Per the discription, the dress is seamless and closes on the side. Because of the patern in the fabric I am affaid that putting a princess seam in, instead of the darts will change the look of the dress. If anyone has done one of the victorians with the darts I would be really intereted on the patern you used and whether you made or purchased the pattern. Any other advice would be greatly appriciated. Thanks, Shannon Moyes ------------------------------ joyeuse@auracom.com (joy pye-macswain)[41,91]CSuX:what everyone else is doing Subject: Re: H-COST: What everyone else is doing From: joyeuse@auracom.com (Joy pye-Macswain) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 11:07:53 -0300 (ADT) - -Poster: joyeuse@auracom.com (Joy pye-Macswain) Morning.... My husband and I are primarily Victorian (1860's) re-enactors, who also play in the SCA. We have had a busy summer here on the Canadian East Coast with various Victorian Teas and garden parties. This past weekend we attended a really fun `Medieval Festival' held at the famous Indian River Church on Prince Edward Island..:) I think the highlight of that event, for us, was singing in the church which has the most unbelievable acoustics. Halloween is not a biggie for us, althought that 1830's Interview with a Vampire does sound like fun. Is that a ball you are holding? The next big Victorian event for us will be the Fizziwig Ball in early December. I am planning a wonderful new gown in shot blue silk for myself...:) :) As for my business, we are beginning to gear up for the winter production. I do primarily Victorian costume for various businesses, hotels and theme parks throughout the Maritimes. Because of our history, two time frames, the 1740-60's and the 1860's are the big tourist draws here and since my work is driven by the tourist industry we tend to be very busy during the winter producing for the next season....:) The nice thing about that is that I have the summers free, more or less, to do re-enactment myself...such fun! Joy, otherwise known as Lady Elene of Lochcarron in the SCA **************************************************************************** Joyeuse Garb, Historic Costuming "Sewing the past in the present for your future" Joy Pye-MacSwain 30 Fury drive Dartmouth, NS B3A 4Y2 E-mail: joyeuse@auracom.com Voice: (902) 469-6390 **************************************************************************** ------------------------------ mlaventure@aol.com[38,92]CSuX:what everyone else is doing Subject: Re: H-COST: What everyone else is doing From: MLaventure@aol.com Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 12:27:37 -0400 (EDT) - -Poster: MLaventure@aol.com How I'm spending my summer vacation... I'm Headpiece Director for Pageant of the Masters/Festival of Arts in Laguna Beach, CA. So, I have a performance every night this summer until August 30. For those of you who have never heard of this, the Pageant of the Masters recreates works of art on the stage; paintings, statues, pieces of jewelry, etc. using real people. There is an orchestra, a choir, a jazz singer, a theme and narration to add to the evening. The outdoor ampitheatre is a beautiful garden setting a few blocks from the ocean in Laguna Beach. The theme for this year is "Hidden Treasures". This year includes a porcelain Monkey Band dressed in complete Georgian costumes (Meissen figurines), 35 Xian Warriors (terra cotta soldiers that were buried for a few thousand ears and discovered in the last 20 or so years), the altar and statues from Mission San Juan Capistrano, paintings such as Paris Street: Rainy Day by Caillebotte, Christina's World by Wyeth, a set of paintings by Winslow Homer involving kids like Snap the Whip, The Blackboard and The Country School and The Swing by Fragonard. There is also a fresco from Pompeii, a marble Siphnian temple, several pieces of Scythian jewelry, several other statues, some Wedgewood and Egyptian Treasures from the Valley of the Kings including Tut's middle coffin. It's been quite fun to build the show and watch the show progress. I'm responsible for eveything from the neck up. So, I do all the hair, hats, masks and jewelry. I also have my other business, Enhancements Costume Supply. Even with the UPS strike, we are finding ways to get merchandise delivered. So that's my summer... Mary LaVenture ------------------------------ doris j. nash [28,93]CSuX:summer vacation Subject: H-COST: Summer Vacation From: "Doris J. Nash" Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 12:15:59 -0500 - -Poster: "Doris J. Nash" My recent doings include-- --making 6 Mardi Gras-style heads from window screening (sews great!) for an ISU production of "Rikki Tikki Tavi" that toured around the state (Iowa) to kids' summer camps. --a 2-day freelance gig at the Showboat in Clinton, IA, where they're performing "Little Shop of Horrors" using costumes we created for our production two years ago. (I did alterations for them.) --doing some minor refinements/up-grading to my latest Renaissance gown for wear at this year's Minnesota RenFest. Friends and I go up for 2 days Labor Day weekend--THAT'S my real vacation! ;-) --just bumming around. Planning to go to the State Fair later this week, things like that. And keeping up with my email, and what all you folks are up to! Stay cool! Doris - ----------------- Doris Nash Costume Shop Supervisor, Iowa State University "...with ruffs and cuffs, and farthingales and things." - --Shakespeare, The Taming of the Shrew ------------------------------ henk t jong [61,94]CSuX:what everyone else is doing Subject: Re: H-COST: What everyone else is doing From: "Henk 't Jong" Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 17:57:49 +0200 - -Poster: "Henk 't Jong" Henk & Pauline 't Jong tScapreel Medieval Advisors Dordrecht, Netherlands Hi List, Karen wrote: > Actually I've been wearing costumes all summer. I'm in Elizabeth's Court > (Guild of St. George) at Bristol RenFaire here in the beautiful, exotic > mid-west. I've just been too busy trying not to melt inside my own > portable sauna to write much on the list. Who thought an Elizabethan > Faire in the middle of summer was a good idea?! It's 31 degrees celcius here as well. Last saturday we went to a 'medieval' do in one of our historic towns, just to look at it and learn (we didn't and it was horrible). It was 30 degrees then and nobody, but nobody had the good sense to dress in what the common medieval man or woman wore when it was hot outside (yes, it could be hot then too, folks; the 'dark ages' is just a name!) and if they could not avoid going out. No, velvets, wool (with nylon in it), several types of synthetics, lined jerkins and hose, etc. etc. were worn and even the few people there who were dressed in late 15th c dress, hadn't thought about making a chemise or undershirt. Surprise, surprise: people wore their lightest linen kirtles and undershirts. Nobody in their right mind wore wool or lined clothing, let alone fur and high collars. Men walked around in their linen breeches and hose rolled down or without them all together. Everybody wore something on their heads: men light linen coifs or caps, women light veils wrapped around their hair and no wimples, just to keep out sunstroke. Nuns and widows went out as little as they were able or sent servants. Even monks had summer-habits of linen or thin wool. If they could they kept to the shade as medieval persons did not like to get tanned if they could avoid it. We are talking about the common burgher with work in the open or peasants harvesting, soldiers on the march or women on their way to market, etc. Everybody else stayed inside in their cool houses with all the windows and doors open. People who were near water swam in the early morning and evening or just puddled about in it. Men wore no clothes there or just their breeches, women went apart and kept their chemise on (only to be secretly spied on by irresponsible young men and boys (see several poems, songs and stories of the time)). Their were lot's of summer faires in medieval and renaissance Europe and if it was hot you went there as thinly dressed as possible and avoided the hottest part of the day. How do you think Southern European people lived in their climate? No, mad dogs and Englishmen (abroad) go out in the midday sun, but our forefathers were not dumb... Bye, Henk ------------------------------ mzscahlett@aol.com[23,95]CSuX:what everyone else is doing Subject: Re: H-COST: What everyone else is doing From: MzScahlett@aol.com Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 14:34:32 -0400 (EDT) - -Poster: MzScahlett@aol.com In a message dated 97-08-10 11:58:19 EDT, bshuwarg@lausd.k12.ca.us (barbara shuwarger) writes: << I have been totally immersed in medieval music. I play the vielle which is an ancestor of the violin. I will be going to Provence in 3 weeks to study troubadour and trouvere song (secular music of the 12th-14th centuries) at a workshop being given in a tiny village by the memebers of the Boston Camerata. Then we will travel around south west France. Does anyone have any sites to recommend that would be useful for an historic costumer? Barbara >> I played the hammered dulcimer! I haven't tuned it in years though... sorry to get off topic, but I love ancient music almost as much as I love ancient clothes! Angela ------------------------------ robin berry [43,96]CSuX:what everyone else is doing Subject: Re: H-COST: What everyone else is doing From: Robin Berry Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 11:47:18 -0700 - -Poster: Robin Berry This dialogue is wonderful. I am enjoying hearing where everyone's focus is for fun and work. Being in the San Franscisco Bay Area costume opportunities are endless and we must pick and choose or become totally scattered. My fiance and I are fascinated by history and do some living history and some re-enactment. This weekend we attended a Civil War Re-enactment at Johnston House - 1863 for me to learn what the Civil War groups do. Guess I'll have to do a more dressed down 1860's day gown. I am currently working on: - - a 1890's skirt slip, lots of lace and ruffles, for a ball gown to wear in a fundraiser fashion show for Dunsmuir House (as shown on America's Castles), - - 2 Regency day dresses for the Jane Austen National being held in San Francisco in October (using fabrics which are copies of those shown in Jane's quilt) & if I have time, I need to finish the 2 hats I have in the workroom somewhere, - - fixing my Landskenecht for RenFaire (it is cotton velvet and puff & slash leather, made by master costumers, - on hot days (100 F) it is warm but breaths and on cool days (65 F) I am comfortable),and - - consulting with my seamstress on designing my wedding gown - a copy of a 1910 presentation gown. In addition, next weekend is a Midsummer Night's Eve party (think I'll adapt one of my 1420's SCA gowns). I also need to begin to think about what I will wear/adapt for Le Bal Des Vampyres which is on Nov. 1. And then there is 12th Night coming up fast. I will leave this group for the month of Sept (wedding and England honeymoon), but will look forward to all the wonderful information and support when I return. Keep the information flowing. Robin L. Berry a little bit of a scholar, a little bit of a seamstress, and a whole lot curious ------------------------------ mzscahlett@aol.com[28,97]CSuX:what everyone is up to Subject: Re: H-COST: What Everyone is up to From: MzScahlett@aol.com Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 14:49:15 -0400 (EDT) - -Poster: MzScahlett@aol.com In a message dated 97-08-10 21:29:38 EDT, you write: << My current favorite by far, right now, is DRESSED FOR THE PHOTOGRAPHER by Joan Severa - a really special, entertaining work of art on all fronts -- I admire so much the author's scholarship and her respectful regard toward the long-ago departed subjects of her study. Adios >> Fred, just purchased this book and have to say you are absolutely right about it. Can you recommend any others that would provide a look into the end of La Belle Epoque (1900-1914) that this book does not cover? Also, as a bookseller, do you know if a book of similar pictures would be useful to someone in the publishing or historical business? Years ago I found an album of daguerrotypes from a family that is not my own. The pictures are fabulous, and with the help of Ms. Severa's text I have dated them at from 1848 to 1898, mostly the latter. I would like to retain copies, but hate to think I am "sitting on history" that could be shared, as the photos contain a couple of fabulous portraits of a wedding gown, an evening gown, and even period police attire. Any suggestions on what to do with it? Angela Lazear ------------------------------ mzscahlett@aol.com[15,98]CSuX:what everyone else is doing Subject: Re: H-COST: What everyone else is doing From: MzScahlett@aol.com Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 14:58:45 -0400 (EDT) - -Poster: MzScahlett@aol.com I am spending my summer recovering from surgery and costuming theatrical productions here in the South Bay Area. Having just finished THE BOYFRIEND, Sandy Wilson's musical romp thru 1920's Europe, I am in production on my first melodrama CURSE YOU JACK DALTON! which opens at the end of August. Then I begin production meetings for LOOK HOMEWARD ANGEL over at the Arts Academy! phew, now I'm tired just thinking about it. Angela ------------------------------ leslie h [23,99]CSuX:summer vacation Subject: H-COST: Summer vacation From: "Leslie H" Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 13:15:40 +0000 - -Poster: "Leslie H" I am assisting in a small way with the costumes for Streetcar Named Desire, opening September 18. Not without creative interest, but historically pretty boring. The next play, though, is Henry V! Yeehah! With this theater company and this designer, it's never routine; she always takes the historical base and tweaks it in some interesting way. (Like when we did Man For All Seasons with fully correct silhouettes and layering, but each costume monochromatic in a different jewel tone.) The best of both worlds, really; we do good research and then use it as we like. Busy with SCA tournament season; YAY for Henk's comments about summer dressing! Hooray for lightweight cotton/linen blends! Anyone out there have a Viking +1? Do you to swap embroidery patterns? I especially need a hedgehog! Leslie ------------------------------ bd927@scn.org (susan courney)[33,100]CSuX:summer projects Subject: H-COST: H-Cost: summer projects From: bd927@scn.org (Susan Courney) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 13:48:46 -0700 (PDT) - -Poster: bd927@scn.org (Susan Courney) Hi, Ive been busy with non-historic costumingmy last costume was a Women in Black, complete w/gun. Fun and easy to do. My next big project will be a regency dress. This is a bit out of the periods I usually do -SCA and Victorian. Id like to do it right as the dresses sound so pretty (OK, I read regency romances occasionally). The first problem is what type of material to use. In searching my boxes Ive so far come across various solid colored light weight silks; two transparent silks: a blue-gray and a white with gold threads; an early sixties pink and silver brocade;a heavy chinese silk brocade (bright turquoise); Dk blue rayon velvet; and a heavy dk blue lace re-embroidered with silver I dont want to do a debutante dress, so Id like to stay away from light colors. I dont know enough about the period to know what types, weights and colors would have been used. Any suggestions? Id like to us the heavy lace , but Im not sure it would be period. I dont have enough for a full Victorian and Id like to use it for something. Its not a light weight rayon type lace, but more of a cotton type. Thanks Susan Courney ------------------------------ margo anderson [22,101]CSuX:what everyone is up to Subject: Re: H-COST: What Everyone is up to From: Margo Anderson Date: Sun, 11 Aug 1996 13:55:44 -0700 - -Poster: Margo Anderson > >Years ago I found an album of daguerrotypes (SNIP) >Any suggestions on what to do with it? > Are you sure these are daguerrotypes? Daguerrotypes are negative images on a mirrored glass surface, which gives the illusion of a positive image. They are almost always found in individual leather, metal, or celluloid cases, and are quite small. If you have an actual album, i.e, a multiple version of the individual case, it is quite valuable and you should contact an antique dealer. Other valuable daguerrotypes are very large ones, and especially, landscapes. I think what you have here is probably an album of photographs. As to the best way to share them, how about a Web page? Margo ------------------------------ shannon moyes(smtp:sjmoyes@lamar.colostate.edu)[84,102]CSuX: victorian tea dress-pg # Subject: H-COST: Victorian Tea Dress-Pg # From: Shannon Moyes[SMTP:sjmoyes@lamar.ColoState.EDU] Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 12:45:39 -0700 - -Poster: Broneske According to the book, there is an "invisible" fastening on the left. = This looks like it would be a rather challenging project as it fits the = body quite closely. =20 I have never, in my experience, seen any patterns which would be = constructed in this way (not to say there aren't any) but if you are = willing to try and create a pattern yourself, I suggest you perhaps try = to make it up in "miniature" first. Not microscopic, of course, but = doll-sized, so you can get the darts and left closure right. It seems to me that there would also have to be seams at the shoulders. Something like this maybe (I hope this comes out in the translation) __ __ ___ ___ | | | | | \ ____/ | / \______/ \ / \ ___/ \___/ \_____ \ Front Back / \ = left / \ = / \ = / | /\ /\ /\ /\ | | | | | | | | | | = | / \/ \/ \/ \/ = \ / darts darts \ / = \ / = \ | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | - ---------- - -Poster: Shannon Moyes Hi all, =20 Several people have asked me to indicate the page number and book of the dress. So, the book is Harper's Bazar 1860-1898, page 233. =20 Per the discription, the dress is seamless and closes on the side. = Because of the patern in the fabric I am affaid that putting a princess seam in, instead of the darts will change the look of the dress. If anyone has done one of the victorians with the darts I would be really intereted on the patern you used and whether you made or purchased the pattern. Any other advice would be greatly appriciated. =20 Thanks, =20 Shannon Moyes =20 =20 ------------------------------ End of h-costume-digest V1 #40 ****************************** h-costume-digest-approval@world.std.com (h-costume-digest)[37,103]CSuX:h-costume-digest v1 #41 Subject: h-costume-digest V1 #41 From: h-costume-digest-approval@world.std.com (h-costume-digest) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 15:50:23 -0400 (EDT) h-costume-digest Tuesday, August 12 1997 Volume 01 : Number 041 In this issue: H-COST: Chicago area reenactment Re: H-COST: What everyone else is doing Re: H-COST: What Everyone is up to H-COST: h-costume resource book H-COST: Judy Michell's Photographs Re: H-COST: A small question Re: H-COST: What Everyone is up to Re: H-COST: What Everyone is up to Re: H-COST: What Everyone is up to Re: H-COST: What everyone else is doing H-COST: Re: Old Photos of some Great Clothes! Re: H-COST: Summer Vacation Re: H-COST: What Everyone is up to H-COST: How I spent my holidays Re: H-COST: A small question Re: H-COST: Re: Old Photos of some Great Clothes! Re: H-COST: What Everyone is up to Re H-COST: What everone else is doing, etc H-COST: 16th C corsets H-COST: Ancestral photographs Re: H-COST: Summer Vacation H-COST: c15th Hats H-COST: Books Re: H-COST: Re: Old Photos of some Great Clothes! Re: H-COST: What everyone else is doing Re: H-COST: What Everyone is up to H-COST: hats H-COST: What Everyone is doing. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- kelly rinne [8,104]CSuX:chicago area reenactment Subject: H-COST: Chicago area reenactment From: KELLY RINNE Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 16:36:05 -0500 - -Poster: KELLY RINNE Anyone know of Chi-area reenactment groups? You can email privately, if you wish... Kel ------------------------------ seamstrix@juno.com[24,105]CSuX:what everyone else is doing Subject: Re: H-COST: What everyone else is doing From: seamstrix@juno.com Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 16:43:02 -0700 - -Poster: seamstrix@juno.com Hello Henk, Our foremothers might not have been dumb, but we sure are. Here in the beautiful, exotic mid-west we have had days with a heat index(that's the summer equivalent of wind-chill factor) of better(?!) than 110 degrees farenheit. On those days I can tell the time of day by how many of us have gone down from the heat. The management of the Faire has decided that since we are celebrating the Progresses of Elizabeth and it is an occasion of high ceremony we must all be dressed to kill, so to speak, and we are out in the heat and humidity and dust wearing layer after layer of hoops, corset, velvets, and brocades(Often with a high synthetic content because that's all we can find). We look damn fine until we fall over. We are outdoors the entire time, walking briskly in parades, dancing in full sunlight, and generally trying to entertain a bunch of people sweating their brains out in shorts and t-shirts....(gee, are you hot in that dress?....)Mad-dogs and RenFaire actors..... Karen ------------------------------ trekona@erols.com[25,106]CSuX:what everyone is up to Subject: Re: H-COST: What Everyone is up to From: trekona@erols.com Date: Mon, 11 Aug 97 22:47:57 GMT - -Poster: trekona@erols.com > -Poster: Margo Anderson > > Are you sure these are daguerrotypes? Daguerrotypes are negative images on > a mirrored glass surface, which gives the illusion of a positive image. > They are almost always found in individual leather, metal, or celluloid > cases, and are quite small. If you have an actual album, i.e, a multiple > version of the individual case, it is quite valuable and you should contact > an antique dealer. Other valuable daguerrotypes are very large ones, and > especially, landscapes. > > I think what you have here is probably an album of photographs. As to the > best way to share them, how about a Web page? Hmm, is this something of interest to folks? I have a bunch of pictures of my ancestors (great-great grandparents and on down) on both daguerrotypes and in albums. Most of them have already been scanned. Someone want to see them? I suspect the files are pretty large - oh, they were all from New England. The scans came out amazingly detailed -Judy Mitchell ------------------------------ deborah glosek [11,107]CSuX:h-costume resource book Subject: H-COST: h-costume resource book From: Deborah Glosek Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 20:36:08 -0400 - -Poster: Deborah Glosek Karren Schaeffer refers to h-costume resource book in her August 9, 1997 posting. I'm a newbie---when is this book available and how to I get a copy of my own? Thanks! Debbie Glosek ------------------------------ kidzazou@webtv.net (joseph keller)[9,108]CSuX:judy michell s photographs Subject: H-COST: Judy Michell's Photographs From: Kidzazou@webtv.net (Joseph Keller) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 19:54:05 -0500 - -Poster: Kidzazou@webtv.net (Joseph Keller) Yes, yes, and another thousand yesses on wanting to see your photographs. What you have is a goldmine of information for costumers, not to mention that old photographs are cool anyhow. Joseph ------------------------------ julie adams [35,109]CSuX:a small question Subject: Re: H-COST: A small question From: Julie Adams Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 20:38:08 -0700 - -Poster: Julie Adams > Just a small question for a newbie to the list. I am having > a reproduction Victorian costume from the second bustle era > made and I have a question. The drawers that were worn at that > time, were they loose in the leg or were they gathered up by > a drawstring just below the knee? I've never seen any drawers from that period with a drawstring at the knee, but perhaps someone else has. The few originals I own from that era are all loose at the bottom, usually with ruffled lace at the bottom. In the Harper's Bizarre book by Dover they show loose legged ones and some that are gathered slightly into a band (which is also not tight on the leg), also with a ruffle of lace at the bottom. Julie Adams Julie Adams http://www.idyllmtn.com/savaskan/homepage.html http://www.lgd.org/ Drache 6yr rough stud, Kirsche 5.5 yr smooth bitch - "karabash" Shimmi - 8 month smooth bitch Savaskan Anatolian Shepherd Dogs aka "choban kopegi", "kangal kopegi", "chomar" Jon - 3 yr old son-- ASD in training Liebshon - housecat (Kirsche is the better mouser...) and 3 little hens....and 2 little white angora doe goats ------------------------------ danine cozzens [32,110]CSuX:what everyone is up to Subject: Re: H-COST: What Everyone is up to From: Danine Cozzens Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 20:21:02 -0700 - -Poster: Danine Cozzens I'm delighted to see all the responses to this question. What a multifaceted group! I am working on some new Regency gowns for the Jane Austen national conference to be held in San Francisco in early October. Since we have a lot of people in the same situation hereabouts, I have started a sewing circle that meets on fourth Sunday afternoons in various San Francisco Bay Area locations. We'll have a special guest in September, Rio Folsom, helping us construct a "Regency Bonnet in an Afternoon" out of fabric and cane. I've christened the group the "Bodice-Rippers" because (a) one must have a silly name for a sewing circle and (b) when I sew, there is always more ripping than sewing. To the SF area people: I sent out email notices to people whose addresses I had, but if you didn't get one, and are interested, drop me a line. I know some addresses bombed. Projects need not be Regency or a bodice. My non-costume projects include scanning and cataloging three family photo albumns from the 1850s-1890s. Joan Severa's _Dressed for the Photographer_ is a great help. Very few of the photos are identified, so dating them by dresses is of great help to the family historian. Danine Cozzens (Rditor, _The Costumer's Scribe_ for the Greater Bay Area Costumers' Guild, San Francisco) ------------------------------ julie adams [42,111]CSuX:what everyone is up to Subject: Re: H-COST: What Everyone is up to From: Julie Adams Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 20:46:32 -0700 - -Poster: Julie Adams Hi, I've been working on a web site for our Landsknechte re-enactment group. It finally got up and running this weekend. The URL is: http://www.st-mike.org/groups/german/homepage.html There are lots and lots of pictures of German Renaissance costume, as well as some articles and an initial cut at my German Women's costume guidelines (which will have images and the german names for the costume pieces soon). I also have some games and songs and research articles up - names and occupations and such, and a lot of really great links to Renaissance Art pages (Lots of Woodcuts!), Museums, sutlers and such. We plan to add a lot more to it (waiting now for some promised contributions from members...) so check back occasionally. I will be expanding the women's costume and the book references sections very soon. I'd also like to add a section on material culture (props) in the near future as well. The email address on the site may not be working yet. Feel free to email me for more info or comments. Julie Adams Julie Adams http://www.idyllmtn.com/savaskan/homepage.html http://www.lgd.org/ Drache 6yr rough stud, Kirsche 5.5 yr smooth bitch - "karabash" Shimmi - 8 month smooth bitch Savaskan Anatolian Shepherd Dogs aka "choban kopegi", "kangal kopegi", "chomar" Jon - 3 yr old son-- ASD in training Liebshon - housecat (Kirsche is the better mouser...) and 3 little hens....and 2 little white angora doe goats ------------------------------ albertcat@aol.com[20,112]CSuX:what everyone is up to Subject: Re: H-COST: What Everyone is up to From: AlbertCat@aol.com Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 00:39:29 -0400 (EDT) - -Poster: AlbertCat@aol.com In a message dated 97-08-12 00:03:14 EDT, MzScahlett@aol.com writes: << Several (about half) of the pictures in the Album are actually on metal plates >> Ahhhhhh...Tintypes! These are wonderful! I don't really know anything about photography but I have some tintypes that are most definitely mid to late 1870's. These women are trussed & wrapped tight practically to the knee, w/ an abundance of pleating. Great princess bustles....standing in front of a painted back drop. Daguerrotypes are always on glass....a glass negative usually w/ back velvet behind it. Too heavy for an album. Sometimes you have to turn them just right to see them . A modern Blk.&Wht. negative will produce much the same effect when placed on black velvet. Photos on paper tho' [also usually made from glass negatives] have been around for some time. I have some from the 1860's. ------------------------------ bronwens@aol.com[21,113]CSuX:what everyone else is doing Subject: Re: H-COST: What everyone else is doing From: BronwenS@aol.com Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 00:56:32 -0400 (EDT) - -Poster: BronwenS@aol.com I just returned from my have-to-visit-all-the-family-before-I-leave-the-states visits. Did I ever miss the list!! Now I'm starting on sorting my fabric stache. WHAT AGONY!! Just how much DO I take to England?!?! On another note. I came across an interesting item at an antique store the other day. The dealer said they were called "sewing birds". They were very ornate C-clamps that had a bird on top that worked like a clothes pin. They clamped onto tables and were used to hold large needle work items, such as tableclothes, so that you could work on them. Has anyone heard of these things, and if so, what time frame are they from?? Hello to all and glad to be back Bronwen ------------------------------ mzscahlett@aol.com[24,114]CSuX:old photos of some great clothes! Subject: H-COST: Re: Old Photos of some Great Clothes! From: MzScahlett@aol.com Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 01:28:55 -0400 (EDT) - -Poster: MzScahlett@aol.com AlbertCat In a message dated 97-08-12 01:01:14 EDT, you write: << Daguerrotypes are always on glass....a glass negative usually w/ back velvet behind it. Too heavy for an album. Sometimes you have to turn them just right to see them . A modern Blk.&Wht. negative will produce much the same effect when placed on black velvet. Photos on paper tho' [also usually made from glass negatives] have been around for some time. I have some from the 1860's. >> Were prints ever made from the daguerrotype process? Could it be possible that some of these prints were made from daguerrotypes? Do you know how one goes about making a visible print from a tintype? I can see them with good light and a magnifying glass easily, as they are in really good shape, but I wouldn't think they would scan well. Would scanning hurt them? Angela ------------------------------ sara j. davitt [17,115]CSuX:summer vacation Subject: Re: H-COST: Summer Vacation From: "Sara J. Davitt" Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 23:06:59 -0500 (CDT) - -Poster: "Sara J. Davitt" After a breif stint as a Telephone psychic, :-) I am a college bum, learning as much as I can, searching the obituaries of the previous tenents of this house, so I can figure out who the 'ghost' might be. Painting a little, sleeping alot... Reading some, and trying to get outside as much as possible. wishing everyone the best of summers, Sarahj ******PS>. ANYONE WANT TO GO IN ON A BONING ORDER?**** +++++++split a dozen of a few sizes?--let me know ------------------------------ mzscahlett@aol.com[46,116]CSuX:what everyone is up to Subject: Re: H-COST: What Everyone is up to From: MzScahlett@aol.com Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 21:58:07 -0400 (EDT) - -Poster: MzScahlett@aol.com In a message dated 97-08-11 21:12:11 EDT, wander@hooked.net (Margo Anderson) writes: << Are you sure these are daguerrotypes? Daguerrotypes are negative images on a mirrored glass surface, which gives the illusion of a positive image. They are almost always found in individual leather, metal, or celluloid cases, and are quite small. If you have an actual album, i.e, a multiple version of the individual case, it is quite valuable and you should contact an antique dealer. Other valuable daguerrotypes are very large ones, and especially, landscapes. I think what you have here is probably an album of photographs. As to the best way to share them, how about a Web page? Margo >> Well, I am not sure of anything. One of the "photos" in the Album is definitely a photograph. Several (about half) of the pictures in the Album are actually on metal plates, and are quite small about 1" X 2". Many of these are of children. How early could photographs be taken as opposed to a daguerrotype? Due to the age of some of these pictures, I assumed that they would be the latter, as I didn't think that they had photography yet. Others in the album mention "negative on file" or something on the back and are sepia-toned. Are those a different form of imaging that daguerrotyping? I am less interested in how the images were captured as to what eras they might represent. Some of the clothes in these pictures are unique and fabulously intricate. Almost all of these are in excellent shape. The book is a large one, with stuffed covers, marked ALBUM in metal on the front, although the bottom of the "A" and the whole "m" are broken off. The "pages" are heavy cardboard with slits where the image is tucked into a space to hold it. Two of the pictures have dates on the back, one is 1876 and the other 1886. A website is not a bad idea, but I haven't the foggiest notion as to how to set it up. I would want the pictures to be clear enough to be useful, so they would have to be scanned properly and I'm not so good at that. Angela ------------------------------ mrs c s yeldham [23,117]CSuX:how i spent my holidays Subject: H-COST: How I spent my holidays From: Mrs C S Yeldham Date: 12 Aug 97 09:42:00 GMT - -Poster: Mrs C S Yeldham I'm just back from a week on the Isle of Wight, cooking for up to 30 in a 15th century group which included men at arms and jousting knights - lovely shire horses! It rained, every day, and sometimes it poured down! Still, we managed to have a good time and at least the evenings were clear so we could eat and sit around and socialise in peace (and dry out). Previous weekend was Portland Castle, Dorset - 16th century cooking (15), next weekend is Muchelney Abbey, Somerset, 16th century cooking (30), last weekend of the month is Jersey, 17th century cooking (number unknown). But I'm free on the August bank holiday (we have got things we could do but figure we need a break), so we are planning to go and see Kentwell Hall - 16th century re-enactment. What am I doing in between? Pretending to work and reading the list! England is now hot and humid (31 degrees C may not seem a lot to those of you in the US but its hot here!). Caroline ------------------------------ elizabeth higgins [25,118]CSuX:a small question Subject: Re: H-COST: A small question From: Elizabeth Higgins Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 11:15:38 +0100 - -Poster: Elizabeth Higgins Hi Julie, At 20:38 11/08/97 -0700, you wrote: >I've never seen any drawers from that period with a drawstring at the knee, >but perhaps someone else has. The few originals I own from that era are all >loose at the bottom, usually with ruffled lace at the bottom. In the >Harper's Bizarre book by Dover they show loose legged ones and some that >are gathered slightly into a band (which is also not tight on the leg), >also with a ruffle of lace at the bottom. I had wondered because I had seen some French photographs (which were apparently pornography of the time) and the women were wearing drawers which were drawn in just below the knee by a ribbon which was formed into a fancy bow. I wondered if they were normal or just done for better sexual allure. Many thanks for the answer. Lissa ------------------------------ trekona@erols.com[32,119]CSuX:old photos of some great clothes! Subject: Re: H-COST: Re: Old Photos of some Great Clothes! From: trekona@erols.com Date: Tue, 12 Aug 97 12:46:13 GMT - -Poster: trekona@erols.com > Were prints ever made from the daguerrotype process? Could it be possible > that some of these prints were made from daguerrotypes? It must be: some of the paper pictures that I have in the family albums are exactly the same picture that I also have on glass plate. I can't imagine that they wore the same thing twice at the same age for two different sittings! I don't have specific dates as to when my pictures were taken, but I do know who everyone is, when they were born & died and in most cases what they did. A couple where children (who died young), a number of older folks, and many young adults. > Do you know how one > goes about making a visible print from a tintype? I can see them with good > light and a magnifying glass easily, as they are in really good shape, but I > wouldn't think they would scan well. Would scanning hurt them? I hope not! Probably the bright light is not great for them, but scanning once is certainly better than photocopying many times! And at least once digitally preserved, they won't be lost forever in flood/fire/age (that was why I did it in the first place). -Judy Mitchell > > Angela > ------------------------------ joyeuse@auracom.com (joy pye-macswain)[39,120]CSuX:what everyone is up to Subject: Re: H-COST: What Everyone is up to From: joyeuse@auracom.com (Joy pye-Macswain) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 10:01:28 -0300 (ADT) - -Poster: joyeuse@auracom.com (Joy pye-Macswain) Morning... Hmm, is this something of interest to folks? I have a bunch of pictures of >my ancestors (great-great grandparents and on down) on both daguerrotypes and >in albums. Most of them have already been scanned. Someone want to see them? I >suspect the files are pretty large - oh, they were all from New England. The >scans came out amazingly detailed > -Judy Mitchell I would love to have a look at the photos and daguerotypes. I have pictures of my ancestors from 1860 to present, as well as a growing collection of old photos from throughout the Nova Scotia and Prince Edward Island region. I have been curious as to whether we would see much in the way of regional style differences. Mind you New Englanders and Maritimers as really `first cousins' and so even allowing that regional styling or decorative touchs added to the colthing might occur, I expect we wouldn't see much diversity between our ancestors..:) Anyway if you have them scanned I would be interested in seeing them. Joy **************************************************************************** Joyeuse Garb, Historic Costuming "Sewing the past in the present for your future" Joy Pye-MacSwain 30 Fury drive Dartmouth, NS B3A 4Y2 E-mail: joyeuse@auracom.com Voice: (902) 469-6390 **************************************************************************** ------------------------------ henk t jong [61,121]CSuX:re what everone else is doing, etc Subject: Re H-COST: What everone else is doing, etc From: "Henk 't Jong" Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 17:28:39 +0200 - -Poster: "Henk 't Jong" Henk & Pauline 't Jong tScapreel Medieval Advisors Dordrecht, Netherlands Hi, Very nice idea this. It's fun to read what the others are doing this summer. I feel it strengthens the bond of us costume-freaks and we get to know each other better as well. So here goes ours: We have just spent a short holiday next to green meadows and clear waters in the shade of tall trees (anybody getting jealous?), but the weather wasn't that good, so we drove around some in the most beautiful countryside Holland (the province) has to offer. After that it was (and still is) work again: - -Designing and dressing a parade of some 1150 people, situated in 1456 in the town of The Hague and at the court of Philip of Burgundy there, which stayed in that town during part of that year. It's based on the events during the 9th Chapter of the Knights of the Golden Fleece, which was held there. It has to go out op april 30th, 1998. I've spent a full day looking for and choosing costumes in a famous Belgian costume-rental house. Not real Burgundian dress, but something close to it (with some fantasy). - -The family (Pauline and both sons of 15 and 12) and me have performed as 14th c strolling singers and musicians (me playing the tabor and singing, Pauline singing) at Archeon, an archeological themepark with a little medieval town in it. - -Doing research on the organising and design of cultural-historical events in the Netherlands and getting very depressed about it, but hey, the can always send for tScapreel, can't they? - -Placing Performers in medieval dress with their crafts and arts in several of these events (also in Belgium) and taking part myself as an actor/improvisor performing the role of relics peddling Minorite monk (grey wool habit with sewn on hood, rope girdle and linen undies, as in Giotto's fresco's). Last year I wore it in the kind of weather we're having now, and a funny thing happened: I was not as hot as I expected to get and I got some very curious looks (and rude remarks) from people in halter tops, shorts and/or bare uppers. At other occasions I was more informal: right; undershirt and breeches and wide straw hat with cords, no shoes. - -Having meetings in several historic places (f.i. castles, museums) to talk about ideas to liven up these places next season. - -Making an illustrated catalogue of reproductions of medieval red and grey pottery we sell - -Pauline is at the moment buying material for a set of 14th c mi-parti musicians 'rocken' with seperate hoods (style Manesse Codex) we are making for a group of players and we have just made an estimate for three 13th c soldiers costumes (only the wool, silk and linen parts) for a museum That's about it; it keeps us of the streets, but it is still hot inside as well. Caroline is right, when it's hot over here, it's really HOT and humid! Bye, Henk ------------------------------ teddy [35,122]CSuX:16th c corsets Subject: H-COST: 16th C corsets From: TEDDY Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 16:35:22 +0000 (GMT) - -Poster: TEDDY Mrs C S Yeldham said; > I suspect that the deep 'V' running down from the waist did not > lie flat to the body but projected forward, in front of the body. > This would exaggerate the waist and make it look narrower at the > front. It would also mean that the construction of the gowns > would be much more like the peascod bellies of contemporary men - > constructed in two parts, one close to the body to hold the back > and sides in place, the other extending in front. I've been thinking about this since reading it, and looking at a few pictures from the period. I think Caroline has a point, in at least some of the cases. I don't have time to play around with a mock-up of it at the moment, but I've sketched it out (my usual method of visualising these things) from various angles and can see how it would work. I also see the sense of it. It would be a lot easier and more comfortable to sit (as well as dance etc.) in a corset that didn't extend down so far and a bodice that did, but to the front, away from the body so the point isn't stabbing you if you try to sit down. Please post to the list if you get a chance to try it Caroline, let us know if it works in practice as well as it seems to on paper. I still have a full Elizabethan to make (wheel farthingale and all) at some point and this variation in the construction sounds a whole- lot more comfortable, and still allows for that deep 'V' Teddy ------------------------------ leslie h [11,123]CSuX:ancestral photographs Subject: H-COST: Ancestral photographs From: "Leslie H" Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 09:07:57 +0000 - -Poster: "Leslie H" Joy, do you have the resources to put your photographs on a web page? Or might someone on the list wish to help with this? Sounds like a collection that I'd like to see, too, although it is outside of my working time/place. Leslie ------------------------------ kate pinner [19,124]CSuX:summer vacation Subject: Re: H-COST: Summer Vacation From: Kate Pinner Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 12:18:41 -0700 - -Poster: Kate Pinner > -Poster: "Doris J. Nash" > > My recent doings include-- > --making 6 Mardi Gras-style heads from window screening (sews > great!) for an ISU production of "Rikki Tikki Tavi" that toured Can you really sew window screen? I'm assuming that you mean the fibreglas kind, not the metal stuff. - -- Kate Pinner Kelsey Theatre Tech Dir--Design Sets/Costumes ------------------------------ david_key@vnet.ibm.com[76,125]CSuX:c15th hats Subject: H-COST: c15th Hats From: david_key@VNET.IBM.COM Date: Tue, 12 Aug 97 17:55:12 BST - -Poster: david_key@VNET.IBM.COM In a recent append on the subject of hats Henk suggested I might be able to help with origins for the use of 'chapeau' etc. in the late c15th ... well Yes & No ... probably more no but here's what a quick think & browse has to offer (additional info as always is more than welcome) Being English my focus, and access to documentation, is somewhat limited to English sources ... and as Henk very rightly points out there are plenty of other Languages in Europe ... and just because something was called a 'Chapeau' in France it does not follow that anyone in c15th England would have the faintest idea what you were talking about! However ... that doesn't mean they wouldn't be wearing the same hats. Fashion is a peculiar thing and there can be no doubt that national, regional & even local fashions existed (my thanks to Caroline Yeldon for reminding me of an extract from thr Salisbury Ledgers for the 1460's which mention gowns being made in 'last years style' and 'in the style of X' etc. ... still I digress. I glanced at import records for Southampton, London & Hull for the mid c15th and these show a wide range of hats being brought into the country ... typically these are in Latin or English ... so in Southampton you see variantions on 'cappa' to mean both caps and hoods (I forgot to write down the actual latin sorry). In Hull the folling types of hat are listed ... Imports colan hatte .... hat from Cologne copul' hatte ... suggested means a hat with a plume or feather as copple = a crest on a bird's head copyn' hatte ... suggested may be a variant of copul' or from copotain a high-crowned hat on a bird's head worn by the controller felt hatte ,,,,,, hat made of felt pilleus ........ a hat thrum hatte .... hat made from thrums, poor quality wool waste toppynvyld' hatte ... worn by the Collectors hathare ........ probaly coarse wool for hat making was also imported Exports felthatte London also imported large quantities of straw hats ... which links with another discussion about clothing in the heat ... in summer fields workers removed their hose, wore a shirt and wide brimmed hat for working ... but just as now the more postition mattered so the more formally was your dress ... which is why on a building site today you'll see workers wearing shorts & no shirt (notice how today we keep the trousers & lose the top ... in the middle ages it was typically the reverse) whilst their boss is wearing a shirt & tie. None of this really answers the question about 'chapeau' etc. except to say that I don't think it was an English term ... they used cap, hat and hood. For example the 'Chaperon' so beloved by costumiers and re-enactors alike appears to have simply have been called a hood in England (unless anyone can provide me with an English source to say the contrary). On the topic of what people are doing this Summer ... working I'm afraid ... I have already missed several of our events as a result ... a trifle miffed I was! Cheers Dave The White Company (1450-1485) ------------------------------ curiouser and curiouser! [31,126]CSuX:books Subject: H-COST: Books From: Curiouser and curiouser! Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 10:39:03 -0700 (PDT) - -Poster: Curiouser and curiouser! Ok I've been flidding around on amazon.com, and my goodness we've been busy! I did a search of the top 50 bestsellers under Health and Fitness, and I was *shocked* at how many of those were costuming books! guess amazon.com has found in us, a perfect marketable group! I was wondering if anyone has checked out this book: [or can recommend any other of the books on draping they have...] it sounds really good, and is a lot cheaper than the others... Designing by Draping : 1930's Draping Methods Designing Techniques by Sandra Ericson (Editor) *NR Edition Paperback Published by Antiquity Pr Publication date: October 1992 I have some info on braids and hair books, but that'll have to wait until I can summarize it, after my next meeting! .heather.meadows. ------------------------------ sara j. davitt [17,127]CSuX:old photos of some great clothes! Subject: Re: H-COST: Re: Old Photos of some Great Clothes! From: "Sara J. Davitt" Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 14:11:22 -0500 (CDT) - -Poster: "Sara J. Davitt" re-tintypes and deguerrotypes.. It might be a good idea, to take them to a professional photogrtapher, and ask for regular print images of these.... They will be able to control the lighting for the best result, and thn you will be able to make duplicate prints (fairly cheaply) or scan those in without worrying about the originals!-- and possibly with better results than just scanning the originals. Good Luck! Sarahj ------------------------------ agnes gawne [42,128]CSuX:what everyone else is doing Subject: Re: H-COST: What everyone else is doing From: Agnes Gawne Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 12:09:41 -0700 (PDT) - -Poster: Agnes Gawne On Sun, 10 Aug 1997, barbara shuwarger wrote: > -Poster: barbara shuwarger > > > I have been totally immersed in medieval music. I play the vielle > which is an ancestor of the violin. I will be going to Provence in 3 weeks > to study troubadour and trouvere song (secular music of the 12th-14th > centuries) at a workshop being given in a tiny > village by the memebers of the Boston Camerata. Wow - what great fun, I, too came to costuming through early music. > > Then we will travel around south west France. Does anyone have any sites > to recommend that would be useful for an historic costumer? > I didn't get to any places that were specifically "Costume museums" but I highly recommend you go to Avignon to the pope's palace, to St. Paul de Vence - which is a great medieval hilltop village and to Grasse - the center of perfuming in Provence. At the Fragonard usine in Grasse there are a few costumes on display but only back to the late 18th century. There seemed to be much more modern art than ancient in the museums in Provence but be sure to check out the actual medieval villages and old towns, churches, etc. Also, the "Pont du Gard" and the coliseum in Nimes are Roman constructions still standing and easy to get to and see. There's even cave art if you want to get REALLY old. Provencal printed cottons are great,too. Consider going to a town or village market day - I picked up a few metres of printed cottons at a market for much less than was selling in the stores. Have a great trip - it's a wonderful part of the world. Agnes Gawne ------------------------------ mzscahlett@aol.com[30,129]CSuX:what everyone is up to Subject: Re: H-COST: What Everyone is up to From: MzScahlett@aol.com Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 14:13:42 -0400 (EDT) - -Poster: MzScahlett@aol.com In a message dated 97-08-12 04:18:49 EDT, danine@earthlink.net (Danine Cozzens) writes: << Angela, The pictures are interesting especially if you can tie them to a specific location. I am doing this work with three albumns from my own family, all taken after they came to California in the 1850s. Of course no one bothered to identify who the people were, so it has been a merry chase narrowing down the possibilities. One thing that helps is that many Victorian photos have plates on the back showing the town and the photographer. I hope to turn my albums into a web page some day, and perhaps find out who some of those mystery people are! Danine Cozzens >> Danine: Almost every image has a photographer and town on the back. How would I go about using that information to find out more about the photos? Only one photo has the name of the sitter )Verna M. Minch, age 2 yrs 3 mos -- it's a baby picture! Angela ------------------------------ morphis@niuhep.physics.niu.edu[40,130]CSuX:hats Subject: H-COST: hats From: morphis@niuhep.physics.niu.edu Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 13:13:11 CST6CDT5,M4.1.0,M10.5.0 - -Poster: morphis@niuhep.physics.niu.edu London also imported large quantities of straw hats ... From where? Didn't the peasants have enough time to make their own? (but they had enough money...?) which links with another discussion about clothing in the heat ... in summer fields workers removed their hose, wore a shirt and wide brimmed hat for working ... but just as now the more postition mattered so the more formally was your dress ... which is why on a building site today you'll see workers wearing shorts & no shirt (notice how today we keep the trousers & lose the top ... in the middle ages it was typically the reverse) As always when dealing with that amorphous thing called the middle ages this depends on when (and, I am sure, where) you are. I have only recently been digging through this but it seems likely to this rank amature that in times when hose are the order of the day, the hose get lost first, where breeches are the predominate leg covering the shirt is dropped. And when it gets really hot :) the underwear of the period is displayed ... At least that is what I have gathered from the half a dozen books I have been perusing recently. whilst their boss is wearing a shirt & tie. And doing nothing :) Interesting discussion, Robert ------------------------------ madly@wired2.net (s. bergdahl)[23,131]CSuX:what everyone is doing. Subject: H-COST: What Everyone is doing. From: madly@wired2.net (S. Bergdahl) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 12:55:38 -0700 - -Poster: madly@wired2.net (S. Bergdahl) Well, lately I have been tied up making Ren Fair Costumes for the Costume Shops that I sew for. I have been also working on a new 1846 costume for the Living History Program at Fort Sutter. I am also doing the finishing touches to a outfit to be used at the Calif. State Fair. In my spare time (When I can find it) I am working on the samples for my new classes on Bargello, and Needle Lace. If that is not enough, wife wants a Bedouin costume for Holloween. And to add to the work I found 10 yards of lime green silk that is going to make the most intresting Sci Fi Costume. And people wonder why I never seen to get enough sleep! The Scary part is - I love to costume! Stephen - Sacramento CA ------------------------------ End of h-costume-digest V1 #41 ****************************** h-costume-digest-approval@world.std.com (h-costume-digest)[42,132]CSuX:h-costume-digest v1 #42 Subject: h-costume-digest V1 #42 From: h-costume-digest-approval@world.std.com (h-costume-digest) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 23:18:52 -0400 (EDT) h-costume-digest Wednesday, August 13 1997 Volume 01 : Number 042 In this issue: H-COST: Oops, I stored my costume trunk stored in the basement Re: H-COST: What everyone else is doing Re: H-COST: Summer Vacation H-COST: new virus Re: H-COST: new virus Re: H-COST: new virus H-COST: re: ancestral photos Re: H-COST: What Everyone is up to Re: H-COST: Musketeers RE: H-COST: What everyone else is doing Re: H-COST: new virus H-COST: College Texts? Re: H-COST: What everyone else is doing Re: H-COST: What everyone else is doing Re: H-COST: new virus Re: H-COST: What everyone else is doing Re: H-COST: new virus H-COST: Sewing birds H-COST: Re: Old Photos H-COST: old photos 1930's & 40's Re: H-COST: old photos 1930's & 40's Re: H-COST: What everyone else is doing Re: H-COST: Ancestral photographs H-COST: sewing birds H-COST: H-COST re RE Old Photos H-COST: Sewing birds Re: H-COST: Re: Old Photos of some Great Clothes! Re: H-COST: Ancestral photographs RE: H-COST: old photos 1930's & 40's Re: H-COST: new virus Re: H-COST: Musketeers H-COST: What everyone else is doing Re: H-COST: What everyone else is doing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- pnomail@bratshb.uwc.edu[18,133]CSuX:oops, i stored my costume trunk stored in the basement Subject: H-COST: Oops, I stored my costume trunk stored in the basement From: pnomail@bratshb.uwc.edu Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 16:38:33 -0500 - -Poster: pnomail@bratshb.uwc.edu Hello o learned scribes and scholars, I just opened up a trunk that has been in storage for several years. It's my costume trunk. In it are two fur muffs, leather gloves, sequined fabric and a 10 foot feather boa made of natural orange feathers. There is also the unmistakeable smell of must. Is there a way to get rid of the damp basement smell safely from fur and feathers? It's admittedly my fault, but can the stinky damage be corrected? My feathers and I will thank you ever so much for all your help. DJ on her husband's account ------------------------------ mara riley [22,134]CSuX:what everyone else is doing Subject: Re: H-COST: What everyone else is doing From: Mara Riley Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 17:36:20 -0400 (EDT) - -Poster: Mara Riley On Tue, 12 Aug 1997 BronwenS@aol.com wrote: > On another note. I came across an interesting item at an antique store the > other day. The dealer said they were called "sewing birds". They were very > ornate C-clamps that had a bird on top that worked like a clothes pin. They > clamped onto tables and were used to hold large needle work items, such as > tableclothes, so that you could work on them. Has anyone heard of these > things, and if so, what time frame are they from?? I'm sure they have another name as well, but I've seen them called 'Elizabethan Nightingales.' Or 'Seamstress' Third Hand'. Not sure otherwise. I think they have been around quite a while, but can't give you an exact date. Corbie ------------------------------ doris j. nash [39,135]CSuX:summer vacation Subject: Re: H-COST: Summer Vacation From: "Doris J. Nash" Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 15:48:24 -0500 - -Poster: "Doris J. Nash" At 12:18 PM 8/12/97 -0700, you wrote: >> -Poster: "Doris J. Nash" >> >> My recent doings include-- > >> --making 6 Mardi Gras-style heads from window screening (sews >> great!) for an ISU production of "Rikki Tikki Tavi" that toured > >Can you really sew window screen? I'm assuming that you mean the >fibreglas kind, not the metal stuff. >-- >Kate Pinner >Kelsey Theatre >Tech Dir--Design >Sets/Costumes > Kate, Yes, it was the plastic-coated fiberglass kind. We bought a few feet and experimented with it first, and found that it sews nicely with a long stitch and large needle. We boned the seams nad other areas so they'd stand up (plastic boning), and then painted, glued, stitched, etc. embellishments. The characters include Rikki the mongoose, a bird, a boy, a muskrat, and 2 cobras. The screening allowed air to circulate (110F heat index here, too!) and the actors had nearly total visual field. The designer, Joe Kowalski, and I are planning to write an article for a theatre journal, perhaps, so that will contain greater detail. It was definitely a challenge and an adventure! Doris - -------------------------- Doris Nash Costume Shop Supervisor, Iowa State University "...with ruffs and cuffs, and farthingales and things." - --Shakespeare, The Taming of the Shrew ------------------------------ rognstad sylvia [16,136]CSuX:new virus Subject: H-COST: new virus From: Rognstad Sylvia Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 17:16:18 -0600 (MDT) - -Poster: Rognstad Sylvia >>WARNING!!!!!! >>If you receive an e-mail titled "JOIN THE CREW" DO NOT open it! >>It will erase EVERYTHING on your hard drive! >> >>Send this letter out to as many people you can. >>This is a new virus that is not yet detectable by McAfee or others.. I've gotten this message from 2 others just since yesterday, so am passing it on to you, for what it's worth. Sylvia R ------------------------------ frances grimble [18,137]CSuX:new virus Subject: Re: H-COST: new virus From: Frances Grimble Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 16:30:45 -0700 - -Poster: Frances Grimble Sylvia, There always seems to be some virus false alarm message circulating. Although there are real viruses, they must be in an executable file. An e-mail message itself is not executable, and opening one will cause no harm. An attachment to a message may be executable and could potentially contain a virus. However, you are safe if you do not open any attachments (or download any software from websites). I would suggest that anyone worried about viruses purchase one of the programs like Norton Utilities that searches for them on your disk and gets rid of any it finds. Fran Grimble ------------------------------ karen krebser [38,138]CSuX:new virus Subject: Re: H-COST: new virus From: Karen Krebser Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 16:40:53 -0700 - -Poster: Karen Krebser > -Poster: Rognstad Sylvia > > >>WARNING!!!!!! > >>If you receive an e-mail titled "JOIN THE CREW" DO NOT open it! > >>It will erase EVERYTHING on your hard drive! > >> > >>Send this letter out to as many people you can. > >>This is a new virus that is not yet detectable by McAfee or others.. > > I've gotten this message from 2 others just since yesterday, so am passing > it on to you, for what it's worth. > Sylvia R > All, These things are hoaxes that get around the internet, cause major/minor uproars, then go away (only to come back again in six months). No e-mail can erase your hard drive. Period. Best, Karen - ----- "There's a special providence in the fall of a sparrow. If it be now, 'tis not to come; if it be not to come, it will be now; if it be not now, yet it will come: the readiness is all..." krebser@erg.sri.com, karenk1558@aol.com http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1059 ------------------------------ trekona@erols.com[22,139]CSuX:ancestral photos Subject: H-COST: re: ancestral photos From: trekona@erols.com Date: Wed, 13 Aug 97 01:04:37 GMT - -Poster: trekona@erols.com Gee, it's gratifying to know there is this much interest! I really scanned the stuff in to preserve in case of catastrophe (I'm the family repository for geneology and anything old ;-) ). I notice that people have been talking about putting pictures of web pages. Hmm, first of all, that costs extra from my server and I don't already have one. I recall something about geocities being free?? I was thinking of putting them on cd-rom. The advantage is that you aren't limited by your browser on how well you can zoom in and look at details, or print. Simply scanning through the glass fronts gave amazing results. Much clearer to see than looking at them and catching the right angle! And if you zoom in, you can even see that one woman is wearing a polkadot scarf. Just, from what I've seen about photos on web pages, they are pretty static and you can't see anything but the one shot that comes up. Wouldn't a cd be more useful? I've got probably around 30 or so pictures. I can check into the costs of burning them onto cd's, I don't think it's *too* much. -Judy Mitchell ------------------------------ astrida e b schaeffer [18,140]CSuX:what everyone is up to Subject: Re: H-COST: What Everyone is up to From: Astrida E B Schaeffer Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 21:07:44 -0400 (EDT) - -Poster: Astrida E B Schaeffer Sigh...Meanwhile, I'm reading all your responses in the rare spare moment and dreaming of all my projects on hold. Amazing what an 8-week-old baby will do to your "free time"!!! (Though I can't wait to costume her!) ***************************************************************************** Astrida Schaeffer "All life on Earth is a fairy tale in which outlandish creatures pursue impossible lives" - Rutherford Platt ------------------------------ lee and bill [15,141]CSuX:musketeers Subject: Re: H-COST: Musketeers From: Lee and Bill Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 18:29:31 -0700 - -Poster: Lee and Bill I'm making a costume for Athos, one of Dumas' Three Musketeers -- Paris c.1620. I understand that a soldier would have worn his own clothing, but would also have something to identify his regiment, etc. Anybody know what this would be for a Musketeer? A sash, perhaps? What color, and how would it be worn? Thanks, Lee ------------------------------ margo glenn-lewis [25,142]CSuX:what everyone else is doing Subject: RE: H-COST: What everyone else is doing From: Margo Glenn-Lewis Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 20:27:50 -0700 - -Poster: Margo Glenn-Lewis I've heard of them in Elizabethan times. You can still purchase such = things, although not nearly so beautiful! From sewing goods catalogs. On another note. I came across an interesting item at an antique store = the other day. The dealer said they were called "sewing birds". They were = very ornate C-clamps that had a bird on top that worked like a clothes pin. = They clamped onto tables and were used to hold large needle work items, such = as tableclothes, so that you could work on them Margo Glenn-Lewis nomad@dcn.davis.ca.us Opal Sun Softweare "Don't forget your bucket." Ice Machine in the Desert/Brave Combo ------------------------------ maggiros@aol.com[28,143]CSuX:new virus Subject: Re: H-COST: new virus From: MaggiRos@aol.com Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 01:27:09 -0400 (EDT) - -Poster: MaggiRos@aol.com In a message dated 97-08-13 01:18:56 EDT, rognstad@stripe.Colorado.EDU (Rognstad Sylvia) writes: > >WARNING!!!!!! > >>If you receive an e-mail titled "JOIN THE CREW" DO NOT open it! > >>It will erase EVERYTHING on your hard drive! > >> > >>Send this letter out to as many people you can. > >>This is a new virus that is not yet detectable by McAfee or others.. > > I've gotten this message from 2 others just since yesterday, so am passing > it on to you, for what it's worth. > Sylvia R My policy is never ever to d/l anything from anyone I don't know--and even from some I do, if I'm not expecting it. However, NOTHING can download by itself just by opening the mail. If you are doing anything automatically, though, which not only opens mail but automatically downloads attachments, the best thing to do is disable that function, to by pass these things before they can happen. It won't matter what kind of scam or virus it is if you don't leave everything in automated hands. Maggie ------------------------------ mzscahlett@aol.com[26,144]CSuX:college texts? Subject: H-COST: College Texts? From: MzScahlett@aol.com Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 01:29:55 -0400 (EDT) - -Poster: MzScahlett@aol.com A while back there was a thread on H-Costume with some recommendations on college texts. I found and purchased DRESSED FOR THE PHOTOGRAPHER, by Joan Severa and am 'in love." However there was another book mentioned which is a college textbook and I can't find the record of the name in my e-mail. I may have accidentally "cleaned" it out when I was packing my digest. Anyway, does anyone have the names of all the books mentioned? I remember only 1) SURVEY OF HISTORIC COSTUME, Tortura, P. and Eubank, K. Fairchild Publications 2) HISTORY OF COSTUME, THE, Payne, B.; Winakor, G. and Farrell-Beck, J. Harper-Colling There were others, or at least one more. I am interested in used copies, more recommendations and "reviews" of the above by anyone who has read/used them. thanks to all in advance Angela Lazear ------------------------------ maggiros@aol.com[24,145]CSuX:what everyone else is doing Subject: Re: H-COST: What everyone else is doing From: MaggiRos@aol.com Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 01:31:51 -0400 (EDT) - -Poster: MaggiRos@aol.com In a message dated 97-08-11 05:02:40 EDT, seamstrix@juno.com writes: > > Hello, > > Actually I've been wearing costumes all summer. I'm in Elizabeth's Court > (Guild of St. George) at Bristol RenFaire here in the beautiful, exotic > mid-west. I've just been too busy trying not to melt inside my own > portable sauna to write much on the list. Who thought an Elizabethan > Faire in the middle of summer was a good idea?! > > > Karen Here in So Cal (where I was in Court at Ren Faires South (Spring) and North (Fall) for 12 years) customers always ask why we don't do this all year! I think we have the answer, right there. Good luck! MaggiRos ------------------------------ maggiros@aol.com[28,146]CSuX:what everyone else is doing Subject: Re: H-COST: What everyone else is doing From: MaggiRos@aol.com Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 01:46:27 -0400 (EDT) - -Poster: MaggiRos@aol.com In a message dated 97-08-11 15:10:00 EDT, scapreel@tip.nl (Henk 't Jong) writes: > > Henk & Pauline 't Jong > tScapreel > Medieval Advisors > Dordrecht, Netherlands Great story! And since we're in the summer doldrums, I'd like to take this opportunity to ask something I've been dying to ask for months! Henk, what is you and Pauline do as "medieval advisors"? Is this a civic position? Is it something Dordrecht does that other Dutch towns do, or is it fairly unique? How often are you actually consulted, and on what and, most importantly (we are breathless on this one) how often do they do what you tell them! :-) I've been fascinated by your sig since I first saw it. There MUST be a story here. Yours fondly, MaggiRos ------------------------------ barbara shuwarger [32,147]CSuX:new virus Subject: Re: H-COST: new virus From: barbara shuwarger Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 22:57:32 -0700 (PDT) - -Poster: barbara shuwarger I just had dinner with a friend of mine who works in computer virus control for the U.S. Air Force. She is adamant in stating that you cannot get any virus from email. They can only be had from executable files/programs. Please pay no attention to these recurrent hoaxes. Barbara On Tue, 12 Aug 1997, Rognstad Sylvia wrote: > -Poster: Rognstad Sylvia > > >>WARNING!!!!!! > >>If you receive an e-mail titled "JOIN THE CREW" DO NOT open it! > >>It will erase EVERYTHING on your hard drive! > >> > >>Send this letter out to as many people you can. > >>This is a new virus that is not yet detectable by McAfee or others.. > > I've gotten this message from 2 others just since yesterday, so am passing > it on to you, for what it's worth. > Sylvia R > > ------------------------------ reksid@aol.com[19,148]CSuX:what everyone else is doing Subject: Re: H-COST: What everyone else is doing From: REKSID@aol.com Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 02:11:33 -0400 (EDT) - -Poster: REKSID@aol.com Summer Vacation! Who has time for vacation? Our studio is going full tilt. We are making two diva dresses, eight 1930's US military uniforms for the NYC Opera, 10 stretch velvet dresses for a modern jazz company, alterations galore, just finished eleven 18th c. livery coats for the Seattle Opera as well as eight 1940's swing costumes for a production in Germany, I think there is more But I couldn't tell you right now..... Gotta go sewwwwwwwwwwww............................. Becky Kaufman Kaufman-Davis Studio ------------------------------ maggiros@aol.com[14,149]CSuX:new virus Subject: Re: H-COST: new virus From: MaggiRos@aol.com Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 02:50:19 -0400 (EDT) - -Poster: MaggiRos@aol.com In a message dated 97-08-13 02:10:27 EDT, bshuwarg@lausd.k12.ca.us writes: > Please pay no attention to these recurrent hoaxes. > Not so much hoaxes, I think, as well-meaning people not understanding the tools they use. I;ve done the same thing and been taken to task in very round terms for it. The advice remains the same, however. Maggie ------------------------------ leslie h [11,150]CSuX:sewing birds Subject: H-COST: Sewing birds From: "Leslie H" Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 00:59:50 +0000 - -Poster: "Leslie H" Try checking with Clotilde. She has a notions company of the same name, and I'm fairly sure she's online. Clotilde has a fine collection of sewing-related antiques and she knows quite a bit of history. Leslie ------------------------------ bill nelson [61,151]CSuX:old photos Subject: H-COST: Re: Old Photos From: "Bill Nelson" Date: Wed, 13 Aug 97 01:20:13 -0500 - -Poster: "Bill Nelson" Without making any claim of special expertise (there are other H-COSTUME list members with vaster vintage photo collections than mine), but I think I can add a little clarity to the definitions of the various photo processes and formats discussed recently. The confusion isn't surprising- it's common to see old images mislabeled in antique stores. Daguerrotypes: The image surface is highly polished silver plate- a mirror that must be directed toward the light so that the reflective background parts are lighter than the image parts. Every daguerrotype is an original image, displayed in a case of gutta-percha or leather (or in a locket or brooch) and that is part of the reason why they tend to be expensive. Daguerrotypes were most popular in the 1850's and are uncommon after the early 1860's. A properly exposed and well-preserved dag preserves incredible detail, but capturing it on film can be challenging. Scanning it won't do it any good, but, more to the point, I think you would have better luck with a copy camera, where you could control the reflections. Ambrotypes: The glass images in individual hinged cases with black paper or velvet behind the glass to bring out the image are ambrotypes. They are sometimes hard to distinguish from tintypes under glass unless you take the case apart. If you look obliquely at an ambrotype, you sometimes can see the image floating slightly above the backing. Also, ambrotypes tend to be heavier than tintypes. Ambrotypes, like daguerrotypes lost popularity after the 1850's. Cartes de Visite: From 1860 or so, cartes de visite (visiting cards) were the predominant format for portrait photography. They were inexpensive; they were easier to produce than daguerrotypes, thereby making the photography business accessible to entrepeneurs in every small town, and they produced a negative that could be kept on file and used to produce additional prints. They were typically collected in albums like the one described recently on this list. Collecting cartes de visite was so popular that images of famous persons- generals, royalty, entertainers, presidents, religious and other uplifting scenes, etc. were published by the thousands. The standard cartes de visite is about 2 1/4" or 2 1/2" by 4". The sensitized and exposed paper image is mounted on a preprinted card. You can approximately date the image by the fashions depicted, but that can be especially difficult with images of children or men. You can also approximately date the cartes de visite by the style of the mount. Early 1860's mounts are lighter weight card than that used in later years. The earliest ones have very simple back imprints or none at all. On the face side, the early 1860's ones have square corners and one or two thin gold border lines. If you find a cartes de visite with a revenue stamp on the back, you can safely date the image between 1864 and 1866. Incidently, the sepia tone is likely due to the effects of age and oxidation. Most of the vintage fashion analysis books discussed here recently (Dressed for the Photographer and What People Wore) use cartes de visites principally for reference. Tintypes: Tintypes were common and cheap and persisted from the 1860's through the turn of the 20th century. Like daguerrotypes and ambrotypes, they were one of a kind, sort of. Tintype cameras were set up with special lenses that allowed the photographer to expose multiple images of a given pose on a single prepared plate of sheet iron painted with black or brown enamel and sensitized. Then the photographer would cut the plate apart and the images would go into hinged cases or albums. I apologize if this is way more than you wanted to know, but so much garbled info was flying around that I thought I'd jump in here. Bill Nelson ------------------------------ katrina [11,152]CSuX:old photos 1930 s & 40 s Subject: H-COST: old photos 1930's & 40's From: Katrina Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 07:31:56 -0400 - -Poster: Katrina I bought a large box of pics at a garage sale for a couple of bucks. The = majority appear to be from the 40's. If I looked into getting these up = on my web site, would anyone be interested or are they too modern? Kat ------------------------------ karren schaeffer [13,153]CSuX:old photos 1930 s & 40 s Subject: Re: H-COST: old photos 1930's & 40's From: Karren Schaeffer Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 06:08:38 -0700 - -Poster: Karren Schaeffer Dear Kat, I'm sure that the people who put the photos out at the garage sale thought no one would ever buy them, hence the price. A good rule of thumb, no matter what the item or information, someone somewhere needs it besides yourself. Karren ------------------------------ joyeuse@auracom.com (joy pye-macswain)[34,154]CSuX:what everyone else is doing Subject: Re: H-COST: What everyone else is doing From: joyeuse@auracom.com (Joy pye-Macswain) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 11:00:49 -0300 (ADT) - -Poster: joyeuse@auracom.com (Joy pye-Macswain) >In a message dated 97-08-11 11:39:50 EDT, joyeuse@auracom.com (Joy >pye-Macswain) writes: > >> Joyeuse Garb, >> Historic Costuming >> > >That's great!!! I wonder how many people get it! > >MaggiRos >also Mairghread-Ros FitzGarrett of Desmond, O.L. (Caid) > Actually you are the first person who has ever noticed and commented to me.....:) :) :) Thanks, you made my day....:() :) :) **************************************************************************** Joyeuse Garb, Historic Costuming "Sewing the past in the present for your future" Joy Pye-MacSwain 30 Fury drive Dartmouth, NS B3A 4Y2 E-mail: joyeuse@auracom.com Voice: (902) 469-6390 **************************************************************************** ------------------------------ joyeuse@auracom.com (joy pye-macswain)[23,155]CSuX:ancestral photographs Subject: Re: H-COST: Ancestral photographs From: joyeuse@auracom.com (Joy pye-Macswain) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 11:04:28 -0300 (ADT) - -Poster: joyeuse@auracom.com (Joy pye-Macswain) >-Poster: "Leslie H" > >Joy, do you have the resources to put your photographs on a web >page? Or might someone on the list wish to help with this? Sounds >like a collection that I'd like to see, too, although it is outside >of my working time/place. > >Leslie Morning Leslie... That is a good idea. If I remember correctly this might be just the kind of information that could go on Geocities Fashion Avenue. I will check it out and when the collection is on the web I will let everyone know.....oh goody another project among many...:) :) Joy ------------------------------ bill nelson [23,156]CSuX:sewing birds Subject: H-COST: sewing birds From: "Bill Nelson" Date: Wed, 13 Aug 97 10:43:23 -0500 - -Poster: "Bill Nelson" The sewing bird, sometimes called a hemming bird, was first patented by Charles Waterman in 1853. The first ones were fairly crude, with the bird itself formed from sheet metal and the clamp arrangement cast metal. They have one or two small pincushions, covered in velvet and filled, I think with emory. When you can find them, they tend to be quite pricy- more than $200.00 for one intact and in good condition. Later sewing clamps of this kind were cast in a variety of forms- butterflies, mermaids, etc., and were more ornate, as is typical of late Victorian. There is a good reference book that you may be able to find in your library. The author is Gay Ann Rogers and the title (I don't have it in front of me) is something descriptive, like: "A History of Sewing and Needlework Tools". Hope this helps. Bill Nelson ------------------------------ lark5000@aol.com[28,157]CSuX:h-cost re re old photos Subject: H-COST: H-COST re RE Old Photos From: Lark5000@aol.com Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 13:12:00 -0400 (EDT) - -Poster: Lark5000@aol.com Bill wrote: <> "....Daguerrotypes: The image surface is highly polished silver plate- a mirror that must be directed toward the light so that the reflective background parts are lighter than the image parts. Every daguerrotype is an original image, displayed in a case of gutta-percha or leather (or in a locket or brooch) and that is part of the reason why they tend to be expensive......" <> *************************************** Thanks, Bill, for the info about old photos. I chose the excerpt above because you mentioned daguerreian jewelry. I'd like to let the group know that there are some images of old jewelry containing daguerreotypes, plus information about old photographic images and jewelry at our website. You can see some interesting hairstyles and clothing in these images from about 1845-1855 and 1850-1860.: http://www.antiqnet.com/jewelry Jane Spies ------------------------------ leslie h [11,158]CSuX:sewing birds Subject: H-COST: Sewing birds From: "Leslie H" Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 10:25:30 +0000 - -Poster: "Leslie H" By the way, these ARE still made in case any of you are not aware of that. I have one and it is invaluable for a number of jobs... the alterations person who turned me on to the idea called it a "third hand" and it really is. I think mine came from Nancy's Notions. Leslie ------------------------------ dunham patricia r [34,159]CSuX:old photos of some great clothes! Subject: Re: H-COST: Re: Old Photos of some Great Clothes! From: DUNHAM Patricia R Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 12:10:00 -0700 - -Poster: DUNHAM Patricia R Your better photography shops now also have WIZARD digital copiers... I had some old family photos copied (from 30's & 40's) for a family reunion--- the originals were in pretty good shape, and the copies are - -fantastic- and relatively inexpensive. Patsy ---------- | From: Sara J. Davitt | To: trekona@erols.com | Cc: Historic Costumers! | Subject: Re: H-COST: Re: Old Photos of some Great Clothes! | Date: Tuesday, August 12, 1997 12:11PM | | -Poster: "Sara J. Davitt" | | | re-tintypes and deguerrotypes.. | | It might be a good idea, to take them to a professional photogrtapher, | and ask for regular print images of these.... They will be able to | control the lighting for the best result, and thn you will be able to | make duplicate prints (fairly cheaply) or scan those in without worrying | about the originals!-- and possibly with better results than just | scanning the originals. | | Good Luck! | Sarahj | ------------------------------ joyeuse@auracom.com (joy pye-macswain)[23,160]CSuX:ancestral photographs Subject: Re: H-COST: Ancestral photographs From: joyeuse@auracom.com (Joy pye-Macswain) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 11:04:28 -0300 (ADT) - -Poster: joyeuse@auracom.com (Joy pye-Macswain) >-Poster: "Leslie H" > >Joy, do you have the resources to put your photographs on a web >page? Or might someone on the list wish to help with this? Sounds >like a collection that I'd like to see, too, although it is outside >of my working time/place. > >Leslie Morning Leslie... That is a good idea. If I remember correctly this might be just the kind of information that could go on Geocities Fashion Avenue. I will check it out and when the collection is on the web I will let everyone know.....oh goody another project among many...:) :) Joy ------------------------------ dunham patricia r [60,161]CSuX:old photos 1930 s & 40 s Subject: RE: H-COST: old photos 1930's & 40's From: DUNHAM Patricia R Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 12:06:00 -0700 - -Poster: DUNHAM Patricia R paranoid response... (just in case anyone else on the list has anything similar...) Katrina, what part of the country are you in? My family has lost a BUNCH of family photos raided by a troubled offspring... soap opera commences: last summer at a family reunion I heard the sad tale of: Aunt B had tons of grandma's photos, when she died, her son A disappeared them out of the house the day Aunt J arrived to go thru them... son A was adopted and on the outs with the family... We're all worried about never seeing them (the photos) again, and it sounded somewhat like he might just garage-sale them... it felt from what Aunt J said like he was trying to hurt the family and didn't really care about the photos at all... So, what we lost would have been one family, max 4 kids, two in late teens and two in 7-8's for the most part, farm settings. The oldest boy (my father, good looking, black hair) may show up in uniform? with a light brunette with wire-rim glasses? Grandma was about 12-15 inches shorter than Grandad even then... Oh, there may be a teenage portrait of Grandad, in a stetson, suit and overcoat with a fur collar, studio shot; and grandma's teen picture too, saw it for the first time last summer, she was an absolute doll, light colored dress... those two would have been in the 19-teens, they were both born in 1900. Aunt B's family was in Utah, I think, at the time of her death, son A many be somewhere in the Midwest now; the family photos would have been taken in Idaho and Oregon... If any of what's in your box sounds like any of this, please let me know... I have some from the same period that I can scan and put on home-page... you'd probably be able to tell really quickly by seeing them if what you have is really related... Thanks Patsy ---------- | From: Katrina | To: h-costume | Subject: H-COST: old photos 1930's & 40's | Date: Wednesday, August 13, 1997 4:31AM | | -Poster: Katrina | | I bought a large box of pics at a garage sale for a couple of | bucks. The majority appear to be from the 40's. If I looked | into getting these up on my web site, would anyone be | interested or are they too modern? | | Kat | | ------------------------------ deb [27,162]CSuX:new virus Subject: Re: H-COST: new virus From: Deb Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 15:26:46 -0500 - -Poster: Deb >> Please pay no attention to these recurrent hoaxes. >> >Not so much hoaxes, I think, as well-meaning people not understanding the >tools they use. Precisely. The FAQ about the Good Times virus (the recently mentioned one is the exact same thing, with a different name) mentions that it CAN be considered a virus : A virus is something that persuades the host mechanism to replicate it and spread it around. However, the HOST mechanism in this case is people, the readers. This is a *thought* virus. It leads us to believe that we should replicate it and spread it around. The computer doesn't get affected at all, but WE do, as we get scared and spread the news! So, now you know, and this may serve as an "innoculation" against the next one that goes around! I found that an intriguing way to think of it. Deb ------------------------------ morelletc2@aol.com[14,163]CSuX:musketeers Subject: Re: H-COST: Musketeers From: MorellEtc2@aol.com Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 19:42:30 -0400 (EDT) - -Poster: MorellEtc2@aol.com At that time period what was called a field sign, a color of plume or sash or ribbon cockade in the line regiments but Royal regiments and some propriatary regiments were wearing a tabbard with a crest or coat of arms on the front and sometimes back. Some regiments also work a specific color of clothing or combination of colors. Uniforms as we know them today were just coming into use but were still a novelty. mike morell morell etc. ------------------------------ cornie rutherford [16,164]CSuX:what everyone else is doing Subject: H-COST: What everyone else is doing From: Cornie Rutherford Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 21:25:36 -0400 - -Poster: Cornie Rutherford For some of us, the Faire season is simply is hiatus. Virginia's Faire closed in early June and the rest of the month was spent getting caught up at home, in the garden and at the day job. July kicked off the fall wedding requests (Can you make,fix,alter this?) and and inspiration for next years Faire costume work (Can you make,fix,alter this?, part deux). Flew up to Bristol last weekend to do court but now it's back to the sewing room. The Hoffman project is almost wrapped up. (Yes, I know how late it is but procrastination is the mother of inspiration) My friend has most of her Christmas presents done. How I hate her... Cornie ------------------------------ gia gavino-gattshall [33,165]CSuX:what everyone else is doing Subject: Re: H-COST: What everyone else is doing From: "Gia Gavino-Gattshall" Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 20:07:30 -0700 - -Poster: "Gia Gavino-Gattshall" Hi fellow costumers! I have been busy with going to events, working, sewing and trying to get started on another research paper. I am also trying to get a youth program started. I have been trying to get ideas from all sorts of people...Speaking of which... When you were all young (yeah, yeah, I know we are still young ), say 'bout the ages 11 -17, what aspect of sewing/costuming got you "hooked" in the hobby/business/side show that you are now involved in? I'm trying to think of nifty ideas (hopefully some of them cheap fun) that I can use for earning "points" (for want of a better phrase..) for costuming proficiencies. I know that not all youths are going to be all interested in everything about costuming, but if I can teach them some fundamentals of research, construction techniques, and proper wearing of the costume/garb, I will have started something good. Anyway, I've got to get back to the writing... Gia Gavino-Gattshall ggavino@serv.net ------------------------------ End of h-costume-digest V1 #42 ****************************** h-costume-digest-approval@world.std.com (h-costume-digest)[36,166]CSuX:h-costume-digest v1 #43 Subject: h-costume-digest V1 #43 From: h-costume-digest-approval@world.std.com (h-costume-digest) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 22:56:47 -0400 (EDT) h-costume-digest Thursday, August 14 1997 Volume 01 : Number 043 In this issue: Re: H-COST: What everyone else is doing Re: H-COST: Re: Old Photos Re: H-COST: What Everyone is up to Re: H-COST: new virus H-COST: What we're doing Re: Re H-COST: What everone else is doing, etc H-COST: Underclothes Re: H-COST: c15th Hats H-COST: Regency gown construction Re: H-COST: Musketeers Re: H-COST: temperature conversions Re: Re H-COST:celcius Re: H-COST: Regency gown construction Re: Re H-COST:celcius H-COST: 1922 and 1947 Catalog scans H-COST: Please help me! Re: H-COST: Regency gown construction Re: H-COST: Underclothes Re: Re H-COST: What everone else is doing, etc H-COST: Florida costume/reenactment groups Re: H-COST: Please help me! H-COST: 1940's wedding dress Re: H-COST: 18th century pockets RE: H-COST: 1940's wedding dress H-COST: Hemispheric discrimination Re: H-COST: Frock coat patterns Re: H-COST: Re: Old Photos ---------------------------------------------------------------------- seamstrix@juno.com[29,167]CSuX:what everyone else is doing Subject: Re: H-COST: What everyone else is doing From: seamstrix@juno.com Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 22:36:39 -0700 - -Poster: seamstrix@juno.com Hello Gina, I got my start in costuming back in the Stone-age of the American Bi-Centennial. I joined a Girl Scout troop who did pioneer craft demonstations at a local nature center. They were also members of a Revolutionary War re-enactment group called the NorthWest Territory Alliance. I was 15 years old at the time. Kind of scary to try to remember motivations from 20 years back. I became fascinated by the fabric. Back in '77 in the cultural waste-land of suburbia, just finding 100% cotton was quite a challenge, forget wool or linen. The troop did fiber processing, carding and spinning wool, processing flax from raw 'sticks' to spun linen thread. I found all of it really cool and it helped me to understand the finished fabric better. The hands-on, this is what it's for, aspects really helped too. I think if it had been presented in a more abstract way I wouldn't have enjoyed it as much. I also had to build my garb from the bottom up, so to speak, so I understood what each part was for.....my first efforts were pretty pathetic, but I got better because I had to, if I didn't make the clothes no one would. I don't know if any of this helps you, but I am more than willing to help infect another generation with 'costume fever'. Karen ------------------------------ mzscahlett@aol.com[28,168]CSuX:old photos Subject: Re: H-COST: Re: Old Photos From: MzScahlett@aol.com Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 23:44:25 -0400 (EDT) - -Poster: MzScahlett@aol.com In a message dated 97-08-13 08:09:51 EDT, nelso230@maroon.tc.umn.edu (Bill Nelson) writes: << Cartes de Visite: From 1860 or so, cartes de visite (visiting cards) were the predominant format for portrait photography. They were inexpensive; they were easier to produce than daguerrotypes, thereby making the photography business accessible to entrepeneurs in every small town, and they produced a negative that could be kept on file and used to produce additional prints. They were typically collected in albums like the one described recently on this list. >> Bill! Mystery solved. This is definitely what I've got in that album. Except for a few tintypes which also match your description perfectly. Thanks for clearing it up and I'm going to use your descriptions to further date the photos in the album, if possible. Thanks again, Angela Lazear ------------------------------ margo anderson [37,169]CSuX:what everyone is up to Subject: Re: H-COST: What Everyone is up to From: Margo Anderson Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 00:54:28 -0700 - -Poster: Margo Anderson My current project is a man's middle class Ren Faire costume. After that, I have a commision for a silk velvet cloak, which, unfortunately, the customer wants to have a head-high "Vampire collar". I hate this idea so much (as, I suspect, does his wife who is going to wear it) that I'm working out a way to make the collar detachable. After those are out of the way, I can start on the project I'm really interested in, which is a one-third scale reproduction of Queen Elizabeth I's "Ditchley" dress. Has anyone out there made this dress? Janet Arnold says that the robe (the part that's barely visible in the portrait) is gold and silver tissue. Can anyone tell me what the modern equivalent of tissue is? Is it brocade, or something else? Does anyone have a source for authentic Elizabethan period patterned fabrics, in small scale? (yeah, fat chance) In one book I've seen, the fabric appears to be red. ( Hunnisett made it in red for Elizabeth R) Any opinions? The portrait also shows a veil with large, wired edge, probably a wired collar attached to the shoulders of the gown, with the rest flowing down to the ground. In several versions of the collar, there is a grid pattern showing, which Arnold believes to be a check pattern in the weave. Hunnisett thinks it's a wire supportasse. What do you all think? In the smaller scale, it probably isn't a neccesity to have a supportasse, but I'm willing to make one if neccesary for the autentic look. Has anyone made a veil like this without one, and how well did it work? Any other information on dresses and accesories of this period would be helpful. I've made a lot of Elizabethan dresses, but this is my first venture into the very late period, and also my first attempt at an exact reproduction. Margo Anderson ------------------------------ eric praetzel [26,170]CSuX:new virus Subject: Re: H-COST: new virus From: Eric Praetzel Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 16:03:41 -0400 (EDT) - -Poster: Eric Praetzel > -Poster: barbara shuwarger > control for the U.S. Air Force. She is adamant in stating that you cannot > get any virus from email. They can only be had from executable > files/programs. Please pay no attention to these recurrent hoaxes. That is mostly true. Plenty of people use MS Windows and if you get email that is in Word for Windows then you can have it throw you right into Word. At that point the "email" can setup some Word macros that dammage any documents you load into Word. That is very similar to tricks we used to do over a decade ago. Just send someone email with the right control codes in it and you can reprogram their keyboard for them! So when they hit enter it types "duck" or "delete *.*" or "logoff" in the case of our network. Loads of fun! - Eric ------------------------------ cliff cheetham [30,171]CSuX:what we re doing Subject: H-COST: What we're doing From: Cliff Cheetham Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 12:49:24 +0100 - -Poster: Cliff Cheetham i spent the last weekend at Lincoln Castle in the middle of the 15th century. Few mad dogs although plenty of Englishmen in evidence. Linen clothing was worn by those who had it (it is rarely so warm here as to merit the purchase of really fine linen kirties and pourpoints) and most of us took the opportunity of spending the weekend largely in our underwear (shifts, shirts and braies). I didn't manage to spot any men in nothing at all, Henk! Little was done, except by the tinnies and the die hards who insisted on a brief battle and suffered for it. Unfortunatley there's no water available at Lincoln Castle to swim or bathe in, but there will be at Warwick where I shall spend the coming weekend and a Caerphilly where I shall be over the bank holiday weekend. I shall be sewing, as always, in an effort to have my orders complete sometime before the end of the season- and much time will be spent in 'gossip and intrigue' and in the preparation of food. The intention is to pretend to fish but goodness knows what I'll do if I actually catch one. Inbetween the exciting bits I shall be looking for a job. Any bright ideas welcome. Best Wishes Sally-Ann Chandler The Historical Clothing Company c.cheetham@virgin.net ------------------------------ henk t jong [36,172]CSuX:re what everone else is doing, etc Subject: Re: Re H-COST: What everone else is doing, etc From: "Henk 't Jong" Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 15:45:53 +0200 - -Poster: "Henk 't Jong" Henk & Pauline 't Jong tScapreel Medieval Advisors Dordrecht, Netherlands Dear Sylvia, You wrote: > Just curious. When you say it is hot there, how hot exactly do you mean? 30 to 33 degrees celcius/centigrade is very hot in the Netherlands as we have a lot of water in our country, so it gets very humid and stifling. Also the ozone-layer plays up a lot in the towns and cities. Especially when there is little wind old people and young children are warned to keep indoors and no sport may be performed outside (jogging, etc). Luckily it is only a few days per year that it gets this hot, only 1941 and 1975 had a longer spell of hot days in a row. It's getting cooler now. > Do you know Fahrenheit as well as centigrade, as I have no idea how to > convert. (I know, we learned it in school and were supposed to have > converted to the metric system decades ago, but I'm an old dog having a > hard time learning new tricks--this computer drives me nuts on a daily > basis). I'm sorry, I have been taught too, but I have forgotten as well and my elder son of 15 hasn't learned it yet, so there you have it. Does anybody else know (sorry, this not costume related, but why not think about it?) Bye Henk ------------------------------ henk t jong [98,173]CSuX:underclothes Subject: H-COST: Underclothes From: "Henk 't Jong" Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 14:22:00 +0200 - -Poster: "Henk 't Jong" Henk & Pauline 't Jong tScapreel Medieval Advisors Dordrecht, Netherlands Hello List, DC wrote: > Agreed that people wore light clothes in the summer. My problem is in > documenting what those clothes were. Seems that most of what we have to go > on is paintings and usually the subjects dressed up in their best (and > usually hottest) clothes for the portraits. If it's paintings you use for researching underclothes, you'll not find many; they are indeed rather formal. I advise you to look at miniatures, and especially those depicting the seasons or the 'droleries' in the margins thereoff. But remember: everything whitish you see peeping out of necklines or sleeves is supposedly part of the 'camise' or 'chemise' or 'hemet, hemede, hemd' etc. (except for breast-clothes of late 15th-17th c women). Since the early middle ages these undershirts and -kirtles were made of supple linen and they were fairly voluminous. They were shorter than the next item of clothing worn over it. Those for women were longer than those for men (except for monks) and both had splits at the sides. Necklines were wide, so your head could pass through it, as were sleeves. They were mostly wider than the sleeve of the cotte over it. This looks odd, but if you try it, you'll feel that these shirtsleeves acts as a kind of lining for the cotte and move very smoothly around you arms, with the material of the cotte-sleeves clinging to the undershirtsleeves. During the 15th c, but maybe even in the late 14th c for the more well to do people, the neck came to be gathered with a split in front and a cord through a tunnel to tie it together. Nearer 1500 a narrow standing band had grown from this tunnel and was sewn on the gathered neckline, and somewhat later a little ruff was seen to appear on top of that, because smockwork was done on the band. But even in the 15th and 17th c the simple medieval camise was still in use with simple people, as Brueghel proves. Only sometimes you see a little split in front, so the collar was not as wide as during the 6th-15th c. Underbreeches for men are very old as well, but there are hardly any illustrations of them before ca 1100. They were also wide and voluminuos and had comfortably low crotches until the second half of the 14th c, when dress for fashion-conscious men became too short and narrow to comfortably house these breeches. Then they became short and close-fitting. Because separate hose were pulled over these breeches, the legs had to be tied together under the knee. Just this week I got proof that this practice at least dates from about 1250, i.e. now I have documented evidence, which does not mean that this way of tying the breeches wasn't older. It's simply practical, else they creep up your legs all the time. On this list people have written about the question if women wore some sort of breeches. Personally I think they did most times and in most places, but there were probably times and places when or where they did not or could not. The only proof I have is based on a misericorde-carving in the St Cernin church (I don't know where that is; it sounds French), where one may see a young woman with late 15th c dress and headcovering pulling on a pair of shorts, suspiciously like those of men from the same period. It might be that this is a social comment (the wife wearing the breeches instead of the husband), as that was what a lot of these misericords were about. But this little carving does not look like a satire; it's more a domestic scene of a gril dressing. Other proof are the breeches worn by 16th c Italian (Venetian?) courtisans in which they shamelessly exposed themselves. Would this be just titilating or did they don male clothes to shock the punters? I don't know and will bow to anybody who has something to say about this that cuts wood. Having been around living history players, among which a lot of women, for a long time, it strikes me as an immensely practical thing to wear for the ladies, as the not-wearing of them is pretty impractical for at least a part of the time. So far about underclothes. I hope this hits the spot, Bye Henk ------------------------------ henk t jong [82,174]CSuX:c15th hats Subject: Re: H-COST: c15th Hats From: "Henk 't Jong" Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 14:46:50 +0200 - -Poster: "Henk 't Jong" Henk & Pauline 't Jong tScapreel Medieval Advisors Dordrecht, Netherlands Hi List, David wrote: ... and just because something was > called a 'Chapeau' in France it does not follow that anyone in c15th > England would have the faintest idea what you were talking about! Maybe court-circles would, but the common man would certainly have used te word 'hat(te)', I agree. > Imports > colan hatte .... hat from Cologne > copul' hatte ... suggested means a hat with a plume or feather as > copple = a crest on a bird's head > copyn' hatte ... suggested may be a variant of copul' or from copotain > a high-crowned hat on a bird's head > worn by the controller > felt hatte ,,,,,, hat made of felt > pilleus ........ a hat > thrum hatte .... hat made from thrums, poor quality wool waste > toppynvyld' hatte ... worn by the Collectors > > hathare ........ probaly coarse wool for hat making was also imported Fascinating stuff: I had to laugh, though. In Dutch 'cop pyn' or 'koppijn' > Exports > felthatte > > London also imported large quantities of straw hats ... which links > with another discussion about clothing in the heat ... in summer > fields workers removed their hose, wore a shirt and wide brimmed hat > for working ... Right, I forgot to mention that, but they appear everywhere and go back at least to the 8-9th c (Utrecht psalter). I know Romans used them as well, but I have no information of the period in between. Does anybody? but just as now the more postition mattered so the > more formally was your dress ... which is why on a building site > today you'll see workers wearing shorts & no shirt (notice how > today we keep the trousers & lose the top ... in the middle ages > it was typically the reverse) whilst their boss is wearing a shirt > & tie. > I know pictures of medieval peasants haying or mowing in just their breeches, with bare tops. > None of this really answers the question about 'chapeau' etc. except > to say that I don't think it was an English term ... they used cap, > hat and hood. For example the 'Chaperon' so beloved by costumiers and > re-enactors alike appears to have simply have been called a hood in > England (unless anyone can provide me with an English source to say > the contrary). I agree again; but the word 'hood' is also used for a hood or pointy headcovering sewn onto a mantle or cape (a hooded mantle), while in the mean time it also stands for the hood with the short shouldermantle or the 'chaperon' or 'caproen' as we say overhere. > > On the topic of what people are doing this Summer ... working I'm > afraid ... I have already missed several of our events as a result > ... a trifle miffed I was! > I'm sorry to hear that, Regards from Gerry E., who phoned me yesterday. Bye, Henk (who still wants to become a White Company friend) ------------------------------ michelle r. madison [30,175]CSuX:regency gown construction Subject: H-COST: Regency gown construction From: "Michelle R. Madison" Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 09:48:12 -0400 (EDT) - -Poster: "Michelle R. Madison" I'm making a Regency gown for Halloween using Hunnisett, and despite not a little research, I'm having trouble finding the answers to a couple questions: 1) I want to do a classical white muslin evening gown (they did have muslin evening gowns, right?). I know that muslin then isn't like muslin now, but I'm not quite sure what it *is* like. Batiste? Voile? 2) I know embroidery was a popular method of decoration, but I don't want to invest quite that much time. What about ruching or ribbons? 3) I'd like to make the corset-slip that Hunnisett shows rather than going the full corset route. Despite being fairly small everywhere else, I'm quite big busted, so I'm not sure if it will be enough support. I'm going to go ahead and make a mock-up of it anyway, but does anyone have any advice or experience with it? This list has been such an inspiration for me! I couldn't have imagined enlarging patterns from a book a year ago! Thanks in advance for your help. TTFN, Michelle - --------- To love oneself is the beginning of a life-long romance. --Oscar Wilde (1854-1900) ------------------------------ bronwens@aol.com[24,176]CSuX:musketeers Subject: Re: H-COST: Musketeers From: BronwenS@aol.com Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 10:46:27 -0400 (EDT) - -Poster: BronwenS@aol.com In a message dated 97-08-14 02:38:11 EDT, you write: << At that time period what was called a field sign, a color of plume or sash or ribbon cockade in the line regiments but Royal regiments and some propriatary regiments were wearing a tabbard with a crest or coat of arms on the front and sometimes back. Some regiments also work a specific color of clothing or combination of colors. Uniforms as we know them today were just coming into use but were still a novelty. >> Disney's version of The Three Musketeers shows great examples of this "tabbard and day clothes" theme. The tabbards they use are very attractive as well. Bronwen ------------------------------ deb [30,177]CSuX:temperature conversions Subject: Re: H-COST: temperature conversions From: Deb Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 10:10:21 -0500 - -Poster: Deb If you have a Centigrade number, C, you convert: F = 9/5 * C + 32 so 33 degrees C is 9/5 * 33 + 32 = 91.4 farenheit If you have a Farenheit number, F, you convert: C = 5/9 (F -32) so 98 degrees F is 5/9 (98 -32) = 36.6 C And we also have humidity in the States. (We had a humity index of 115 F (= 46C) on my last event.) So let's just agree that we're ALL hot, and need to discuss solutions, and not fight over who is hotter ..... <===============================================================> < Deb Baddorf Fermilab, MS220 Arthurian,Inkling,&Regency fan baddorf@fnal.gov PO Box 500 Costumer, RevWar re-enactor Batavia, IL 60510 Computational Lexicography grad student and math & physics as undergrad ------------------------------ susan fatemi [21,178]CSuX:re celcius Subject: Re: Re H-COST:celcius From: Susan Fatemi Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 08:36:27 -0700 - -Poster: Susan Fatemi > 30 to 33 degrees celcius/centigrade is very hot in the Netherlands as h It's about 80-85 F. which is plenty hot for me too! I learned 2 or 3 basic temperatures when I lived overseas, esp. after having children. I was to keep the baby's room at 19-20 C. i.e. 65 F. and normal human temperature is 37 C. i.e. 98.6. 40 C. is very hot for weather and can cause convulsions if it's your internal temp.! I don't know about you guys, but the thermostat in my house (in Calif.) has both scales on it. also a couple of wall thermometers. So instead if driving myself crazy trying to figure out C. = F., I just look at one of those. Susan Fatemi (it's about 57 F. here at the moment) ------------------------------ agnes gawne [75,179]CSuX:regency gown construction Subject: Re: H-COST: Regency gown construction From: Agnes Gawne Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 08:39:30 -0700 (PDT) - -Poster: Agnes Gawne Michelle, There is a lovely, comprehensive women's Regency pattern made by La Mode Bagatelle that includes patterns for a fitted bodice petticoat (that's the supportive undergarment/slip seen in Hunnisett), 2 dress styles, a Spencer jacket, a muff, reticule and beret. This is a beautiful pattern which is produced by two Seattle Area costumers who are also members of the Jane Austen Society, Tamara Fidler and Susan Pasco. They may be reached at: La Mode Bagatelle 3213 W. Wheeler #121 Seattle, WA 98199 Tamara can be reached through her husband's e-mail at: William_M_Fidler@msn.com It is also available from Danine Cozzens on this list and Laci's in Berkeley, Alter Years in Pasadena, Amazon Dry Goods, etc... I am a large busted person and can highly recommend the construction of this petticoat or the petticoat described in Hunnisett as a support for your Regency Garments. (I have one from both patterns). Batiste is the closest fabric you can find no to Regency muslin. The swiss batiste called something like "altissimi" ( something in a superlative anyhow) is the sheerest and nicest but pricey. You might try to find a fabric already woven with a stripe or some other design to alleviate your need to embroider. Ruching, ribbonwork were also done at the period. Remember - they didn't all use white - just lots of them. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Agnes Gawne, Research Study Coordinator University of Washington, Department of Urology Box 356510 Seattle, WA 98195 phone(206) 685-8993 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ On Thu, 14 Aug 1997, Michelle R. Madison wrote: > -Poster: "Michelle R. Madison" > > I'm making a Regency gown for Halloween using Hunnisett, and despite not a > little research, I'm having trouble finding the answers to a couple questions: > > 1) I want to do a classical white muslin evening gown (they did have muslin > evening gowns, right?). I know that muslin then isn't like muslin now, but > I'm not quite sure what it *is* like. Batiste? Voile? > > 2) I know embroidery was a popular method of decoration, but I don't want > to invest quite that much time. What about ruching or ribbons? > > 3) I'd like to make the corset-slip that Hunnisett shows rather than going > the full corset route. Despite being fairly small everywhere else, I'm > quite big busted, so I'm not sure if it will be enough support. I'm going > to go ahead and make a mock-up of it anyway, but does anyone have any advice > or experience with it? > > This list has been such an inspiration for me! I couldn't have imagined > enlarging patterns from a book a year ago! Thanks in advance for your help. > > TTFN, > Michelle > --------- > To love oneself is the beginning of a life-long romance. > --Oscar Wilde (1854-1900) > > ------------------------------ susan fatemi [13,180]CSuX:re celcius Subject: Re: Re H-COST:celcius From: Susan Fatemi Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 09:17:49 -0700 - -Poster: Susan Fatemi Susan Fatemi wrote: > > It's about 80-85 F. which is plenty hot for me too! > Good grief! It's hotter than I thought it was! Susan ------------------------------ eric praetzel [20,181]CSuX:1922 and 1947 catalog scans Subject: H-COST: 1922 and 1947 Catalog scans From: Eric Praetzel Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 12:21:03 -0400 (EDT) - -Poster: Eric Praetzel I've done a few test scans of the 1922 Catalog and they are on http://sca.uwaterloo.ca/~fashion/catalogs.html The pictures are the thumbnails are _huge_. But you can read the scanned text from the catalog!! If anyone has requests for things to scan let me know. I've had one request for corsets etc. The 1947 catalog is a bit better for that stuff. - Eric Praetzel ------------------------------ ccary@tiara.engr.sgi.com (christina cary)[27,182]CSuX:please help me! Subject: H-COST: Please help me! From: ccary@tiara.engr.sgi.com (Christina Cary) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 10:30:35 -0700 - -Poster: ccary@tiara.engr.sgi.com (Christina Cary) I have been trying all week long now to get off this list and I can't. I have entered every command in the world to every address in the universe and yet still the messages won't stop. I saved the Majordomo welcome message and followed the directions both explicitly and with every possible variation under the sun and yet I CAN'T GET OFF THIS LIST. I am ALSO receiving the digest--that's fine, I want the digest, but I don't need both the digest and all of the messages individually too. I have written to the list owner approximately ten thousand times but have never received a reply. HOW DO I STOP THESE INDIVIDUAL MESSAGES FROM FLOODING MY MAILBOX??? PLEASE HELP MEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Christina - -- - --------------- Christina Cary (ccary@sgi.com) - --------------- ------------------------------ albertcat@aol.com[28,183]CSuX:regency gown construction Subject: Re: H-COST: Regency gown construction From: AlbertCat@aol.com Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 13:49:01 -0400 (EDT) - -Poster: AlbertCat@aol.com In a message dated 97-08-14 10:24:30 EDT, nfn01520@naples.net (Michelle R. Madison) writes: << 1) I want to do a classical white muslin evening gown (they did have muslin evening gowns, right?). I know that muslin then isn't like muslin now, but I'm not quite sure what it *is* like. Batiste? Voile? >> No, it's like......well,....air. It is almost gauze. We call it Indian muslin here [NC, USA] & I've never seen it in a store but only on real period stuff....usually caps & collars. My grandmother had some pillow shams made from it w/ blind work embroidery. I sold them to James Achenson during "Last of the Mohicans" & he made Cora's & Alice's caps out of some of them. Batiste is close but really about twice as heavy. A real gown in the period you're doing out of the real stuff could be wadded up & fit in your pocket....no lie! As for decoration...lace inserts are a "quicker" & lovely method or lace motifs use as embroidery. If you do apply lace for embroidery, try gluing the whole motif down as real embroidery is "stuck" all over & not just at the edges. ------------------------------ henk t jong [55,184]CSuX:underclothes Subject: Re: H-COST: Underclothes From: "Henk 't Jong" Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 19:48:59 +0200 - -Poster: "Henk 't Jong" Henk & Pauline 't Jong tScapreel Medieval Advisors Dordrecht, Netherlands Hi List, I'm sorry. Reading this again I agree it's not that clearly put. > > Because > > separate hose were pulled over these breeches, the legs had to be tied > > together under the knee. > I meant the trouserlegs. They had a tunnel and cord at the bottom and perhaps a small split in the bottom of the outward seam. The breeches come below the knee so the cord was tied below that to keep the trouserleg from creeping up. > > I'm sorry, what was tied to what? The hose were tied to the breeches under > the knee? The breeches were tied shut under the knee? The hose, a kind of long woolen or linen stockings (with feet), have (during the 12th to 14th c) cords tied to the front-top of the hose in a very clever way (but very hard to explain without a drawing of it), which cords in their turn are tied to the thicker cord holding up the breeches around the waist. It passes through little holes in the tunnel running round the top of the breeches, one for each hoseleg. I agree it is a bit complicated, but all of this rests on pictoral evidence and a lot of experience. > > >else they creep up your legs all the time. > > Else the breeches creep up? Like, the bottom, which is supposed to be below > your knee, ends up at your thigh? > If breeches-legs (trouser-legs) are not tied under the knee, when you pull on your hose, they tend to creep up, after, for instance, you have been sitting down. It gets uncomfortable when they are bunched up somewhere on the level of your thighs. So I already thought that a method of tying was used, but I did not have medieval evidence yet (although there was later evidence), but now I have. > TIA for the clarifications! Your welcome, and I hope this clarifies it a bit, Bye, Henk ------------------------------ asia reva poppers [32,185]CSuX:re what everone else is doing, etc Subject: Re: Re H-COST: What everone else is doing, etc From: Asia Reva Poppers Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 14:28:22 -0400 - -Poster: Asia Reva Poppers >> Do you know Fahrenheit as well as centigrade, as I have no idea how to >> convert. (I know, we learned it in school and were supposed to have >> converted to the metric system decades ago, but I'm an old dog having a >> hard time learning new tricks--this computer drives me nuts on a daily >> basis). > >I'm sorry, I have been taught too, but I have forgotten as well and my >elder son of 15 hasn't learned it yet, so there you have it. Does anybody >else know (sorry, this not costume related, but why not think about it?) > >Bye > >Henk To convert Celsius (Centigrade) to Farenheit, multiply the degrees C by 1.8, then add 32. The result is degrees Farenheit. To convert F to C, subtract 32 and then divide by 1.8. Using this method, those of us who think in Farenheit can commiserate with Henk et al, who are suffering in 86 to 92 degree weather, with high humidity. Hope it cools off soon! Asia ------------------------------ michelle r. madison [18,186]CSuX:florida costume/reenactment groups Subject: H-COST: Florida costume/reenactment groups From: "Michelle R. Madison" Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 16:59:18 -0400 (EDT) - -Poster: "Michelle R. Madison" Hi, all! I'm fairly new to historical costuming and dying to share this interest with someone else who understands. Do any of you know of any Florida costume or reenactment groups? Or where I could find that sort of information myself? I'd be eternally grateful. Thanks in advance, Michelle - --------- To love oneself is the beginning of a life-long romance. --Oscar Wilde (1854-1900) ------------------------------ albertcat@aol.com[14,187]CSuX:please help me! Subject: Re: H-COST: Please help me! From: AlbertCat@aol.com Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 18:38:28 -0400 (EDT) - -Poster: AlbertCat@aol.com In a message dated 97-08-14 15:39:53 EDT, ccary@tiara.engr.sgi.com (Christina Cary) writes: << PLEASE HELP MEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! >> Sorry, Christina....there's only one way to leave this family...... CREEEEEEEEEK!!!!![running finger across neck] ------------------------------ cinnamon@xtdl.com[16,188]CSuX:1940 s wedding dress Subject: H-COST: 1940's wedding dress From: cinnamon@xtdl.com Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 20:03:57 -0400 - -Poster: cinnamon@xtdl.com Hi, Costumers and Designers, Have had a request from a friend at work for help finding a 1940's style pattern for a wedding dress. The wedding is in August of 1998, but the bride is anxious to find something to work with. Does anyone know any good sources for that time period? Thanks for your help. :) Yours in stitches, Cinnamon (cinnamon@xtdl.com) ------------------------------ andreag@mail.harenet.com (andrea gideon)[12,189]CSuX:18th century pockets Subject: Re: H-COST: 18th century pockets From: andreag@mail.harenet.com (Andrea Gideon) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 21:30:43 -0400 - -Poster: andreag@mail.harenet.com (Andrea Gideon) I have enlarged the pattern for a hanging pocket in the Janet Arnold book, but have been hesitant to make it up. It seems awfully large. Could anyone please send me some info or suggestions, please? Andrea andreag@harenet.com ------------------------------ mark s. pulver [19,190]CSuX:1940 s wedding dress Subject: RE: H-COST: 1940's wedding dress From: "Mark S. Pulver" Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 20:29:30 -0700 - -Poster: "Mark S. Pulver" I was looking through My Harper House Catalog and there on pg 59 is a = 1939 wedding gown. It is a copy of Eleanor Zylztra. Originally made in = cream acetate satin with lace at yoke, collar, cuffs and cathedral = train. Size 10-16 included for $20.00 This is a 96 catalog so prices may vary. Address is Harper House P.O. Box 39 Williamstown Pa 17098 They also carry the Victorian Sewing Bird I saw discussed in other = notes. $80.00 solid Brass and exact replica of an 1890's original Mark S, Pulver The Cobbler's Leatherworks ------------------------------ meaghan waters [26,191]CSuX:hemispheric discrimination Subject: H-COST: Hemispheric discrimination From: Meaghan Waters Date: Fri, 15 Aug 97 09:25:10 +1000 - -Poster: Meaghan Waters >So let's just agree that >we're ALL hot, and need to discuss solutions, and not >fight over who is hotter ..... I would now like to get deeply offended and accuse you all of being hemispherists :-) Living in Melbourne, Australia its winter and its cold and I'm doing a lot of staying indoors and hearing about everyone's lovely summer experiences is not making me feel any better:-) Luckily it does not get as cold as other people have to live through. This winter is being spent building an 1860's crinoline (this is my first shot so if anyone has any advice I'd love to hear it) and wearing velvets and wools to events. Cheers Meaghan ------------------------------ agnes gawne [23,192]CSuX:frock coat patterns Subject: Re: H-COST: Frock coat patterns From: Agnes Gawne Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 16:15:14 -0700 (PDT) - -Poster: Agnes Gawne On Fri, 8 Aug 1997, Joseph Keller wrote: > -Poster: Kidzazou@webtv.net (Joseph Keller) > > Hello Everyone, > I have just read a review that the company that made my 1830's men's > frock coat pattern puts out patterns of questionable accuracy. I am > needing to know if anyone can direct me to a pattern source of early to > mid 19th century men's fashions. I am familiar with Amazon Drygoods but > am looking for a coat with a flaired skirt. Thanks! _+_+_+_+_+_ I've had pretty much the same question asked of me on the Jane Austen list. Does anyone know of any good source for Men's costume of the early 19th century? Either books, patterns or actual costumes for sale? Thanks Agnes ------------------------------ jafath@aol.com[25,193]CSuX:old photos Subject: Re: H-COST: Re: Old Photos From: Jafath@aol.com Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 22:56:37 -0400 (EDT) - -Poster: Jafath@aol.com In a message dated 97-08-13 07:58:00 EDT, nelso230@maroon.tc.umn.edu (Bill Nelson) writes: << If you find a cartes de visite with a revenue stamp on the back, you can safely date the image between 1864 and 1866. >> Why? Some short-lived tax? I'm curious (and thanks for the date!) because I have an old photo -- not a carte de visite but a 5x7 portrait (I suppose it could be another print from the negative of the original cdv ) -- with such a stamp. The ID that came with the photo has been impossible for me to track down (no such person has turned up in the family genealogy yet) but maybe having the date will help. Jo Anne ------------------------------ End of h-costume-digest V1 #43 ****************************** h-costume-digest-approval@world.std.com (h-costume-digest)[36,194]CSuX:h-costume-digest v1 #44 Subject: h-costume-digest V1 #44 From: h-costume-digest-approval@world.std.com (h-costume-digest) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 1997 09:42:07 -0400 (EDT) h-costume-digest Saturday, August 16 1997 Volume 01 : Number 044 In this issue: H-COST: And now -- MY summer project Re: Re H-COST:celcius Re: H-COST: What everyone else is doing H-COST: Re: h-costume-digest V1 #43 Re: H-COST: 18th century pockets H-COST: Re: Musketeers H-COST: 1940's Wedding Dress Pattern H-COST: Early 19th Century Men's Patterns Re: H-COST: 18th century pockets Re: H-COST: Florida costume/reenactment groups H-COST: Florida costume/reenactment groups -Reply Re: H-COST: What Everyone is up to Re: H-COST: And now -- MY summer project H-COST: Daguerrotype v. Tintype Re: H-COST: What everyone else is doing Re: H-COST: Rust Removal Re: H-COST: And now -- MY summer project Re: H-COST: Regency gown construction Re: H-COST: And now -- MY summer project Re: H-COST: Underclothes Re: H-COST: 18th century pockets H-COST: Re: h-costume-digest V1 #43 H-COST: Please help me! Re: H-COST: What everyone else is doing Re: Re H-COST: What everone else is doing, etc Re: Re H-COST:celcius H-COST: Re: Photographic Processes ---------------------------------------------------------------------- jafath@aol.com[29,195]CSuX:and now -- my summer project Subject: H-COST: And now -- MY summer project From: Jafath@aol.com Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 22:58:40 -0400 (EDT) - -Poster: Jafath@aol.com My newest challenge came into the office earlier this week (and my "real" job has nothing to do with costuming in any form). A co-worker waltzed in with a black silk/lace parasol and announced "I loved this and I KNEW you could fix it for me!" Any input gladly accepted. Overall it's about four feet long, the top is about a yard in diameter, has a lace flounce about six inches deep (thank goodness that part isn't damaged) and the body is a sheer black silk under what appears to be/have been a crinkled black chiffon sort of stuff. It's so crisp that "brittle" is a better word, but only one lobe is really shot. Another is starting to go, but I think I can repair it with black chiffon (only mine isn't silk) and care. I may have to replace the one bad one completely. This "friend" is a thirty-something who applies the term "antique" to anything older than she is, but I'm a little more particular. Any ideas about timeframe? (I have the feeling it's more a "costume" thing than a "fashion" thing, but that could be personal bias.) Has anyone tackled something like this? Helphelp? Jo Anne ------------------------------ joan m jurancich [26,196]CSuX:re celcius Subject: Re: Re H-COST:celcius From: Joan M Jurancich Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 19:41:15 -0700 - -Poster: Joan M Jurancich At 08:36 AM 8/14/97 -0700, Susan Fatemi wrote: >-Poster: Susan Fatemi > >> 30 to 33 degrees celcius/centigrade is very hot in the Netherlands as h > >It's about 80-85 F. which is plenty hot for me too! [snip] >Susan Fatemi >(it's about 57 F. here at the moment) You think that 30 to 33 C is hot? Try 44 to 45 C, like we had here in Sacramento two weeks ago. (Translates to about 109 to 111 F for the Americans among us.) Here is the dry Central Valley of California, summer highs of 30 to 40 C with lows of 15 to 20 C are common and considered mighty comfortable. (I just keep telling myself, "It's DRY heat, it's dry heat...") Joan Jurancich Sacramento, California joanj@quiknet.com ================================== ------------------------------ danine cozzens [28,197]CSuX:what everyone else is doing Subject: Re: H-COST: What everyone else is doing From: Danine Cozzens Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 21:00:38 -0700 - -Poster: Danine Cozzens Gia Gavino-Gattshall wrote: > When you were all young (yeah, yeah, I know we are still young madly>), say 'bout the ages 11 -17, what aspect of sewing/costuming got you > "hooked" in the hobby/business/side show that you are now involved in? > Gia, What a good question! I got hooked on historic costume reading Jane Austen and Charles Dickens, and being perplexed at all the domestic detail their audiences took for granted. I just had to visualize how these people looked. It's been a lifelong quest. I found sketches I'd done in grad school 30 years ago, but I never sewed costumes until I ran into the historic reinactment community. Keep me posted on outreach to youth. I was looking for books on beginning sewing for a niece, and found very few. Any recommendations from the list? You can reply to me directly since general sewing is a bit off-topic (but how shall our various organizations go on if we don't cultivate young members!). Danine Cozzens ------------------------------ s-randles@adfa.oz.au (sarah randles)[33,198]CSuX:h-costume-digest v1 #43 Subject: H-COST: Re: h-costume-digest V1 #43 From: s-randles@adfa.oz.au (Sarah Randles) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 14:37:26 +1000 - -Poster: s-randles@adfa.oz.au (Sarah Randles) As Meaghan Waters (Hi Meaghan) pointed out: >I would now like to get deeply offended and accuse you all of being >hemispherists :-) Quite so, and using the formula: >To convert Celsius (Centigrade) to Farenheit, multiply the degrees C by >1.8, then add 32. The result is degrees Farenheit. The temperature here in sunny Canberra the other night was -7 C, which I think works out to 19.3 F. (I'm not sure if this works for negative temperatures). Anyway, it's cold. And that makes me think FUR. We had a big fur swap the other night, and mixed and matched colours. I now have almost enough dark brown fur for a fur lined loose gown or schaub (don't know which yet), and enough white bunny to line a gollar. All I need now is time to sew and some antihistemines! Sarah ****************************************************************************** Sarah Randles email: s-randles@adfa.oz.au School of English phone: 06 268 8898 University College ADFA fax: 06 268 8899 Canberra ACT 2601 AUSTRALIA Web Page: http://www.adfa.oz.au/English/SOESarah.htm ------------------------------ joan m jurancich [27,199]CSuX:18th century pockets Subject: Re: H-COST: 18th century pockets From: Joan M Jurancich Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 19:50:12 -0700 - -Poster: Joan M Jurancich At 09:30 PM 8/14/97 -0400, Andrea Gideon wrote: >-Poster: andreag@mail.harenet.com (Andrea Gideon) > >I have enlarged the pattern for a hanging pocket in the Janet Arnold book, >but have been hesitant to make it up. It seems awfully large. Could anyone >please send me some info or suggestions, please? > >Andrea >andreag@harenet.com How big did it come out? My pockets are about 15-1/2 inches long, about 10" wide at the bottom, tapering to about 6" at the top. The opening is a vertical slit about 6 or 7 inches long. Actually, the pocket should be whatever size you find comfortable. I have made many, no two of which seem to be exactly the same size. Joan Jurancich Sacramento, California joanj@quiknet.com ================================== ------------------------------ ben [31,200]CSuX:musketeers Subject: H-COST: Re: Musketeers From: ben Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 10:09:10 +0000 - -Poster: ben >- -Poster: Lee and Bill > >I'm making a costume for Athos, one of Dumas' Three Musketeers -- >Paris c.1620. I understand that a soldier would have worn his own >clothing, but would also have something to identify his regiment, etc. > Anybody know what this would be for a Musketeer? A sash, perhaps? >What color, and how would it be worn? > >Thanks, >Lee I've recently become involved with Living History for this period myself, and although I don't know much about it myself I have been told by those who are knowledgable on the costumes of Louis XIII's France that the men's costumes in the Oliver Reed/Michael York version of 'The Three Musketeers' and 'The Four Musketeeers' is very good (and the female costume is apparently OK, with a few minor errors on details such as waistline). There are good examples of military tunics/tabards being worn by the musketeers and the Cardinal's Guards. I hope this is of some help. Ben Levick Ben@hrofi.demon.co.uk http://www.hrofi.demon.co.uk ------------------------------ deborah glosek [20,201]CSuX:1940 s wedding dress pattern Subject: H-COST: 1940's Wedding Dress Pattern From: Deborah Glosek Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 08:10:04 -0400 - -Poster: Deborah Glosek To Cinnamon whose friend is looking for a 1940's Wedding Gown pattern: In our new catalog we have a 1947 cocktail dress which was drawn from an original 1947 Wedding Gown---the dress only needs to be lengthened to make the gown. The catalog is $7.00 and contains over a thousand different patterns from different historic pattern comapnies. Harper House P.O. Box 39 Williamstown, PA 17098 717-647-7807 717-647-2480 FAX D Glosek ------------------------------ deborah glosek [18,202]CSuX:early 19th century men s patterns Subject: H-COST: Early 19th Century Men's Patterns From: Deborah Glosek Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 08:15:07 -0400 - -Poster: Deborah Glosek To Agnes who is looking for Early 19th Century Men's Patterns: Our new catalog has several new offerings in this area--Tailcoats, Coachman's Coats, Waistcoats, Breeches, a Dragoon Uniform, and more. Catalog is $7.00 and contains over 1,000 patterns, books and sewing notions and tools. Harper House P.O. Box 39 Williamstown, PA 17098 717-647-7807 717-647-2480 FAX D Glosek ------------------------------ deb [19,203]CSuX:18th century pockets Subject: Re: H-COST: 18th century pockets From: Deb Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 9:55:12 -0500 - -Poster: Deb I agree with the last poster that 18C pockets are SUPPOSED to be big. Mine, when worn, come to below my finger tips. I have to stretch to reach items on the bottom of the pocket (and then the pocket moves away from me as I bend to reach it). But with the size of them, you can carry nearly as much as in a purse. And having them full only adds to the correct "wide-hipped" silhouette. I miss the pockets when I change back into my blue jeans. Deb <=========================================================> < Deb Baddorf baddorf@fnal.gov Costumer, RevWar re-enactor ------------------------------ roxann barber [31,204]CSuX:florida costume/reenactment groups Subject: Re: H-COST: Florida costume/reenactment groups From: Roxann Barber Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 08:58:34 -0700 - -Poster: Roxann Barber Michelle R. Madison wrote: > > -Poster: "Michelle R. Madison" > > Hi, all! > > I'm fairly new to historical costuming and dying to share this interest with > someone else who understands. Do any of you know of any Florida costume or > reenactment groups? Or where I could find that sort of information myself? > I'd be eternally grateful. > > Thanks in advance, > Michelle Michelle I can't help you yet, but am planning to move to Florida in October. So whatever response you get could you pass it on to me too? I would be 'eternally grateful' ;) What era do you re-enact for? Roxy Barber ------------------------------ nora cannon [27,205]CSuX:florida costume/reenactment groups -reply Subject: H-COST: Florida costume/reenactment groups -Reply From: Nora Cannon Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 11:04:40 -0500 - -Poster: Nora Cannon Take a peek at http://users.southeast.net/~ahrendt/ The reenacting sub page cover - as quoted Marqueue of Huntleys Regiment of Foote Gordons Musketeers 1st NY Volunteer Regiment of Engineers Other Living History Pages and Resources on the Web Sutler Contact List Historical Research On The Web Fire Arm Locks of the 17th Century The costuming part covers 17th to 19th century, with the contact being - as quoted Beverly Griffin Stitchery 7925 Merrill Rd. #2111 Jacksonville, Fla. 32277 Phone: (904) 743-7360 Fax: (904) 743-8510 Good luck making contact. ------------------------------ ninni m pettersson [25,206]CSuX:what everyone is up to Subject: Re: H-COST: What Everyone is up to From: Ninni M Pettersson Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 18:21:02 +0100 - -Poster: Ninni M Pettersson Hekllo! Margo Anderson wrote: >After those are out of the way, I can start on the project I'm really >interested in, which is a one-third scale reproduction of Queen Elizabeth >I's "Ditchley" dress. Has anyone out there made this dress? Janet Arnold >says that the robe (the part that's barely visible in the portrait) is gold >and silver tissue. Can anyone tell me what the modern equivalent of tissue >is? Is it brocade, or something else? Not having seen the picture in question, I can only speculate wildly. To me this sounds like something I know I have seen in modern clothes, but don't know the name of: a very thin, but opaque and rather stiff fabric in silver or gold, with a surface and "sheen" rather like dupion silk. Could this be it? (I seem to remember my younger sister having a blouse in such a material sometime in the early 70s. It was in silver IIRC.) /Ninni Pettersson ------------------------------ mara riley [55,207]CSuX:and now -- my summer project Subject: Re: H-COST: And now -- MY summer project From: Mara Riley Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 12:24:01 -0400 (EDT) - -Poster: Mara Riley On Thu, 14 Aug 1997 Jafath@aol.com wrote: > My newest challenge came into the office earlier this week (and my "real" job > has nothing to do with costuming in any form). A co-worker waltzed in with a > black silk/lace parasol and announced "I loved this and I KNEW you could fix > it for me!" Ugh... the words of death! > Any input gladly accepted. > > Overall it's about four feet long, the top is about a yard in diameter, has a > lace flounce about six inches deep (thank goodness that part isn't damaged) > and the body is a sheer black silk under what appears to be/have been a > crinkled black chiffon sort of stuff. It's so crisp that "brittle" is a > better word, but only one lobe is really shot. Another is starting to go, but > I think I can repair it with black chiffon (only mine isn't silk) and care. I > may have to replace the one bad one completely. That 'brittle' part is what worries me. You might suggest that she take it to a professional conservator or something. > This "friend" is a thirty-something who applies the term "antique" to > anything older than she is, but I'm a little more particular. Any ideas about > timeframe? (I have the feeling it's more a "costume" thing than a "fashion" > thing, but that could be personal bias.) > > Has anyone tackled something like this? Helphelp? > > Jo Anne We have a lot of old silk garments from China in the family (great-grandparents worked for State Dept. ca turn of the century), and my experience with them is that repairing them is impossible without further damaging the material. For example, there's one kimono-like robe that is just like spiderweb -- you touch it, it rips further. A problem with old fabrics is that, if you stitch new fabric to it, it can put stress on the old fabric and damage it further. Now, if you could find an old sample of fabric that matched the original, and could replace the panel with that... but IMO, it's best not to replace the missing panel with new fabric. I really would suggest to this 'friend' that she take it to a conservator. If this is a co-worker, and you attempt a repair (at her insistence) that only causes further damage, she'll get mad at you. And you don't really HAVE to fix it yourself; it's better to offer your expert opinion on having it done correctly, and save your working relationship. Corbie ------------------------------ mzscahlett@aol.com[14,208]CSuX:daguerrotype v. tintype Subject: H-COST: Daguerrotype v. Tintype From: MzScahlett@aol.com Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 14:30:52 -0400 (EDT) - -Poster: MzScahlett@aol.com Bill, thanks so much for all the previous photo info. Can you explain the difference between a daguerrotype and a tintype so that I might be able to tell which it is that I have in this book. Many of the images are "Carte de Visite" but a great many are these 2" X 3" (approx) pieces of metallic something that are heavy (or thick) and the images look much like a negative. Dark but clear and very well-preserved. Is that a daguerrotype or a tintype? What are the years each was most prevalent, if you know? Angela ------------------------------ mzscahlett@aol.com[30,209]CSuX:what everyone else is doing Subject: Re: H-COST: What everyone else is doing From: MzScahlett@aol.com Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 14:24:03 -0400 (EDT) - -Poster: MzScahlett@aol.com In a message dated 97-08-15 13:14:00 EDT, danine@earthlink.net writes: << Gia Gavino-Gattshall wrote: > When you were all young (yeah, yeah, I know we are still young madly>), say 'bout the ages 11 -17, what aspect of sewing/costuming got you > "hooked" in the hobby/business/side show that you are now involved in? > >> When I was about 9, my mother made me a Halloween costume that was an "authentic" Southern Belle, hoop skirts, parasol, everything. I will never forget wearing that dress. Since then, I've probably been obsessed with all aspects of ladies clothing. 8 years ago, my eldest daughter became involved in children's theater. Up until then I had been designing one "ball" gown per year for myself, hand-beading one every other year. I began making costumes for Alexis and her friends, and within a year I was doing whole productions. What started out to be about my kids became about me and WAS I HAVING FUN! Now I'm so busy doing shows I sometimes don't have time for the girls (:->)... but I make time. And I love this list, everyone is so helpful and I have learned so much. Next stop: historical re-enactment! Angela Lazear ------------------------------ msbeasley@aol.com[15,210]CSuX:rust removal Subject: Re: H-COST: Rust Removal From: MSBEASLEY@aol.com Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 16:33:47 -0400 (EDT) - -Poster: MSBEASLEY@aol.com In a message dated 97-08-08 18:29:05 EDT, you write: Can you tell me where to purchase the oxalic acid??? What kind of store and does it have any other names?? Thanks B. ------------------------------ don & carolyn richardson [50,211]CSuX:and now -- my summer project Subject: Re: H-COST: And now -- MY summer project From: Don & Carolyn Richardson Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 21:07:41 -0700 - -Poster: Don & Carolyn Richardson Jafath@aol.com wrote: > > -Poster: Jafath@aol.com > > My newest challenge came into the office earlier this week (and my "real" job > has nothing to do with costuming in any form). A co-worker waltzed in with a > black silk/lace parasol and announced "I loved this and I KNEW you could fix > it for me!" > > Any input gladly accepted. > > Overall it's about four feet long, the top is about a yard in diameter, has a > lace flounce about six inches deep (thank goodness that part isn't damaged) > and the body is a sheer black silk under what appears to be/have been a > crinkled black chiffon sort of stuff. It's so crisp that "brittle" is a > better word, but only one lobe is really shot. Another is starting to go, but > I think I can repair it with black chiffon (only mine isn't silk) and care. I > may have to replace the one bad one completely. I'd replace all the material. While those other sections might be whole now, they won't be soon. If they're silk they'll undoubtedly shatter if your friend makes a habit of opening the parasol often. > This "friend" is a thirty-something who applies the term "antique" to > anything older than she is, but I'm a little more particular. Any ideas about > timeframe? (I have the feeling it's more a "costume" thing than a "fashion" > thing, but that could be personal bias.) Sounds like a walking parasol - the long length allows you to use to tap it conveniently along the ground as you parade down the avenue. Probably from the 1890's thru 1920's, but I'm not sure how long they made these. This period was the height of their chicness. > Has anyone tackled something like this? Helphelp? I've recovered one of my parasols (a folding carriage one) and have several others that need it (I recently bought a walking parasol with a white watered silk cover with flowers painted on it, which is badly shattered). My advice is be very, very careful - the tines are easier to break than you think and a bitch to fix. Use one of the whole sections to make a pattern for the new cover. Carolyn ------------------------------ don & carolyn richardson [31,212]CSuX:regency gown construction Subject: Re: H-COST: Regency gown construction From: Don & Carolyn Richardson Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 21:12:15 -0700 - -Poster: Don & Carolyn Richardson Michelle R. Madison wrote: > 1) I want to do a classical white muslin evening gown (they did have muslin > evening gowns, right?). I know that muslin then isn't like muslin now, but > I'm not quite sure what it *is* like. Batiste? Voile? I just finished one of Hunnisett's Regencys, and I used a white rayon sari for the fabric. It came pre-embroidered with a small black floral design and was very lightweight - just perfect. Too perfect - I had to underline it with some white china silk since it was just a bit *too* sheer to wear in public. > 3) I'd like to make the corset-slip that Hunnisett shows rather than going > the full corset route. Despite being fairly small everywhere else, I'm > quite big busted, so I'm not sure if it will be enough support. I'm going > to go ahead and make a mock-up of it anyway, but does anyone have any advice > or experience with it? One friend of mine has made it and says if it's tight enough (ie.well fitted) it should work fine. I didn't take any chances and made the corset instead (I'm a 36D/DD). But I think if you fitted it well, and boned the bodice, you'd be okay. Carolyn ------------------------------ karren schaeffer [17,213]CSuX:and now -- my summer project Subject: Re: H-COST: And now -- MY summer project From: Karren Schaeffer Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 17:18:03 -0700 - -Poster: Karren Schaeffer Okay, now you all have inspired me, and I surely do not need another project. But in my front hall umbrella stand is a beautiful brown silk umbrella with a tortoise handle and tine tips. One section is shot and I have long thought of recovering it to use instead of just display closed. Hmmm . . . there may even be enough cream silk left over in one of my boxes. Having never done this should the grain of the fabric 'slices' run across or from the pinacle to the tips, or should the pieces be bias cut?? Now I remember why I haven't started this project. Looking forward from hearing from someone who knows whats what. Karren ------------------------------ henk t jong [57,214]CSuX:underclothes Subject: Re: H-COST: Underclothes From: "Henk 't Jong" Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 19:48:59 +0200 - -Poster: "Henk 't Jong" - -Poster: "Henk 't Jong" Henk & Pauline 't Jong tScapreel Medieval Advisors Dordrecht, Netherlands Hi List, I'm sorry. Reading this again I agree it's not that clearly put. > > Because > > separate hose were pulled over these breeches, the legs had to be tied > > together under the knee. > I meant the trouserlegs. They had a tunnel and cord at the bottom and perhaps a small split in the bottom of the outward seam. The breeches come below the knee so the cord was tied below that to keep the trouserleg from creeping up. > > I'm sorry, what was tied to what? The hose were tied to the breeches under > the knee? The breeches were tied shut under the knee? The hose, a kind of long woolen or linen stockings (with feet), have (during the 12th to 14th c) cords tied to the front-top of the hose in a very clever way (but very hard to explain without a drawing of it), which cords in their turn are tied to the thicker cord holding up the breeches around the waist. It passes through little holes in the tunnel running round the top of the breeches, one for each hoseleg. I agree it is a bit complicated, but all of this rests on pictoral evidence and a lot of experience. > > >else they creep up your legs all the time. > > Else the breeches creep up? Like, the bottom, which is supposed to be below > your knee, ends up at your thigh? > If breeches-legs (trouser-legs) are not tied under the knee, when you pull on your hose, they tend to creep up, after, for instance, you have been sitting down. It gets uncomfortable when they are bunched up somewhere on the level of your thighs. So I already thought that a method of tying was used, but I did not have medieval evidence yet (although there was later evidence), but now I have. > TIA for the clarifications! Your welcome, and I hope this clarifies it a bit, Bye, Henk ------------------------------ joan m jurancich [29,215]CSuX:18th century pockets Subject: Re: H-COST: 18th century pockets From: Joan M Jurancich Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 19:50:12 -0700 - -Poster: Joan M Jurancich - -Poster: Joan M Jurancich At 09:30 PM 8/14/97 -0400, Andrea Gideon wrote: >-Poster: andreag@mail.harenet.com (Andrea Gideon) > >I have enlarged the pattern for a hanging pocket in the Janet Arnold book, >but have been hesitant to make it up. It seems awfully large. Could anyone >please send me some info or suggestions, please? > >Andrea >andreag@harenet.com How big did it come out? My pockets are about 15-1/2 inches long, about 10" wide at the bottom, tapering to about 6" at the top. The opening is a vertical slit about 6 or 7 inches long. Actually, the pocket should be whatever size you find comfortable. I have made many, no two of which seem to be exactly the same size. Joan Jurancich Sacramento, California joanj@quiknet.com ================================== ------------------------------ s-randles@adfa.oz.au (sarah randles)[35,216]CSuX:h-costume-digest v1 #43 Subject: H-COST: Re: h-costume-digest V1 #43 From: s-randles@adfa.oz.au (Sarah Randles) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 14:37:26 +1000 - -Poster: s-randles@adfa.oz.au (Sarah Randles) - -Poster: s-randles@adfa.oz.au (Sarah Randles) As Meaghan Waters (Hi Meaghan) pointed out: >I would now like to get deeply offended and accuse you all of being >hemispherists :-) Quite so, and using the formula: >To convert Celsius (Centigrade) to Farenheit, multiply the degrees C by >1.8, then add 32. The result is degrees Farenheit. The temperature here in sunny Canberra the other night was -7 C, which I think works out to 19.3 F. (I'm not sure if this works for negative temperatures). Anyway, it's cold. And that makes me think FUR. We had a big fur swap the other night, and mixed and matched colours. I now have almost enough dark brown fur for a fur lined loose gown or schaub (don't know which yet), and enough white bunny to line a gollar. All I need now is time to sew and some antihistemines! Sarah ****************************************************************************** Sarah Randles email: s-randles@adfa.oz.au School of English phone: 06 268 8898 University College ADFA fax: 06 268 8899 Canberra ACT 2601 AUSTRALIA Web Page: http://www.adfa.oz.au/English/SOESarah.htm ------------------------------ ccary@tiara.engr.sgi.com (christina cary)[29,217]CSuX:please help me! Subject: H-COST: Please help me! From: ccary@tiara.engr.sgi.com (Christina Cary) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 10:30:35 -0700 - -Poster: ccary@tiara.engr.sgi.com (Christina Cary) - -Poster: ccary@tiara.engr.sgi.com (Christina Cary) I have been trying all week long now to get off this list and I can't. I have entered every command in the world to every address in the universe and yet still the messages won't stop. I saved the Majordomo welcome message and followed the directions both explicitly and with every possible variation under the sun and yet I CAN'T GET OFF THIS LIST. I am ALSO receiving the digest--that's fine, I want the digest, but I don't need both the digest and all of the messages individually too. I have written to the list owner approximately ten thousand times but have never received a reply. HOW DO I STOP THESE INDIVIDUAL MESSAGES FROM FLOODING MY MAILBOX??? PLEASE HELP MEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Christina - -- - --------------- Christina Cary (ccary@sgi.com) - --------------- ------------------------------ danine cozzens [30,218]CSuX:what everyone else is doing Subject: Re: H-COST: What everyone else is doing From: Danine Cozzens Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 21:00:38 -0700 - -Poster: Danine Cozzens - -Poster: Danine Cozzens Gia Gavino-Gattshall wrote: > When you were all young (yeah, yeah, I know we are still young madly>), say 'bout the ages 11 -17, what aspect of sewing/costuming got you > "hooked" in the hobby/business/side show that you are now involved in? > Gia, What a good question! I got hooked on historic costume reading Jane Austen and Charles Dickens, and being perplexed at all the domestic detail their audiences took for granted. I just had to visualize how these people looked. It's been a lifelong quest. I found sketches I'd done in grad school 30 years ago, but I never sewed costumes until I ran into the historic reinactment community. Keep me posted on outreach to youth. I was looking for books on beginning sewing for a niece, and found very few. Any recommendations from the list? You can reply to me directly since general sewing is a bit off-topic (but how shall our various organizations go on if we don't cultivate young members!). Danine Cozzens ------------------------------ asia reva poppers [34,219]CSuX:re what everone else is doing, etc Subject: Re: Re H-COST: What everone else is doing, etc From: Asia Reva Poppers Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 14:28:22 -0400 - -Poster: Asia Reva Poppers - -Poster: Asia Reva Poppers >> Do you know Fahrenheit as well as centigrade, as I have no idea how to >> convert. (I know, we learned it in school and were supposed to have >> converted to the metric system decades ago, but I'm an old dog having a >> hard time learning new tricks--this computer drives me nuts on a daily >> basis). > >I'm sorry, I have been taught too, but I have forgotten as well and my >elder son of 15 hasn't learned it yet, so there you have it. Does anybody >else know (sorry, this not costume related, but why not think about it?) > >Bye > >Henk To convert Celsius (Centigrade) to Farenheit, multiply the degrees C by 1.8, then add 32. The result is degrees Farenheit. To convert F to C, subtract 32 and then divide by 1.8. Using this method, those of us who think in Farenheit can commiserate with Henk et al, who are suffering in 86 to 92 degree weather, with high humidity. Hope it cools off soon! Asia ------------------------------ joan m jurancich [28,220]CSuX:re celcius Subject: Re: Re H-COST:celcius From: Joan M Jurancich Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 19:41:15 -0700 - -Poster: Joan M Jurancich - -Poster: Joan M Jurancich At 08:36 AM 8/14/97 -0700, Susan Fatemi wrote: >-Poster: Susan Fatemi > >> 30 to 33 degrees celcius/centigrade is very hot in the Netherlands as h > >It's about 80-85 F. which is plenty hot for me too! [snip] >Susan Fatemi >(it's about 57 F. here at the moment) You think that 30 to 33 C is hot? Try 44 to 45 C, like we had here in Sacramento two weeks ago. (Translates to about 109 to 111 F for the Americans among us.) Here is the dry Central Valley of California, summer highs of 30 to 40 C with lows of 15 to 20 C are common and considered mighty comfortable. (I just keep telling myself, "It's DRY heat, it's dry heat...") Joan Jurancich Sacramento, California joanj@quiknet.com ================================== ------------------------------ jeberry@aol.com[68,221]CSuX:photographic processes Subject: H-COST: Re: Photographic Processes From: JEBerry@aol.com Date: Sat, 16 Aug 1997 09:41:55 -0400 (EDT) - -Poster: JEBerry@aol.com There has been some confusing and inaccurate information on the list about identifying and dating early photographs. Here is a brief overview in cronological order. It is important to remember that many of these processes were in use at the same time in varying degrees of popularity by region and class in society. Dauguerotypes - 1839 to Civil War but mostly 1840"s. A highly polished piece of silver or silver plate is exposed to light in the camera. The light chemically changes the silver to a silver compound. This darkening or tarnishing is enhanced by emersion in a chemical bath. Expensive, complicated, and dangerous (mercury vapors) limited it's distribution compared to the processes that followed. The resulting image is fragile so dauguerotype were always framed under glass. The contrast between the light exposed areas and the unexposed reflctive areas of the image is still faint. They are best viewed with a dark background behind the observer so the unexposed areas reflect darker than the exposed light areas of the image. Ambrotype - 1850's - 1860's. Most often mistaken for a dauguerrotype. A piece of glass is coated with a light sensitive emulsion of collodion and silver salts. While it is still wet it is exposed in the camera and the latent image is enhanced in a chemical bath. This wet process hindered its portability because the darkroom had to be nearby. Now the light areas of the picture are dark on the glass and the dark areas of the picture are clear. A piece of black paper or a black japan coating is put on the back of the glass. The clear areas of the image appear darker than the exposed light areas. They were framed the same as dauguerrotype but were cheaper to produce and therefore more numerous. When a way of coating paper with a light sensitive emulsion was perfected in the 1860's the glass plate became the negative from which a infinite number of positive prints could be made. Card d'visites (small photographic calling cards) and cabient cards (larger portraits mean to be displayed on a shelf) were the first mass produced paper photographs using the complicated wet plate processes. Dry plates and Kodak roll film opened up photography to the amature after the 1880's. Tintypes -1850's - 1870's but very popular during the Civil War. Tintypes do not fit well into the progression just described. They were a piece of sheet iron or tin coated first with japan black then a collodial light sensitive emulsion. They were placed wet into the camera and exposed. Still required a darkroom or special van nearby. The light areas of the picture made visible through the chemical action of developing and the dark areas of the picture remained clear allowing the darker japan black to show through. Tintypes were cheaper to produce than any other process. They were definitely more rugged than glass meaning soldiers could carry and mail them. Finally they demanded less skill on the photographer's part to produce and were more widely spread through-out society. Easier to use dry plates and Kodaks eventually replaces them as Ameria's low cost portraits. Any of the books by Beaumont Newhall give an easy to read and detailed description of how the technology of photography changed how Americans viewed themselves. Jim Berry Programs and Interpretation Historic Crossraods Village Flint, MI JEBerry@aol.com ------------------------------ End of h-costume-digest V1 #44 ****************************** h-costume-digest-approval@world.std.com (h-costume-digest)[39,222]CSuX:h-costume-digest v1 #45 Subject: h-costume-digest V1 #45 From: h-costume-digest-approval@world.std.com (h-costume-digest) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 12:07:18 -0400 (EDT) h-costume-digest Monday, August 18 1997 Volume 01 : Number 045 In this issue: H-COST: Re: Photographic Processes Re: H-COST: And now -- MY summer project H-COST: H-Cost: RPFN get-together H-COST: how I got into all this craziness Re: H-COST: Florida costume/reenactment groups H-COST: Duplications Re: H-COST: Florida costume/reenactment groups Re: H-COST: Duplications Re: H-COST: And now -- MY summer project Re: H-COST: Duplications H-COST: QE's Ditchley portrait RE: H-COST: Victorian Tea Dress-Pg # H-COST: Queenly Gifts Re: H-COST: QE's Ditchley portrait Re: H-COST: H-Cost: RPFN get-together Re: H-COST: Duplications Re: H-COST: Duplications [none] H-COST: How I got hooked & rust wrap-up Re: H-COST: QE's Ditchley portrait Re: H-COST: List problem? H-COST: re: Rust removal H-COST: Bleaching Linen H-COST: QE's Ditchley portrait fabric H-COST: Removing masking tape adhesive Re: H-COST: Color Removal Re: H-COST: Florida costume/reenactment groups Re: H-COST: Regency gown construction Re: H-COST: Removing masking tape adhesive H-COST: c15th Hats ---------------------------------------------------------------------- glenna jo & bill christen [71,223]CSuX:photographic processes Subject: H-COST: Re: Photographic Processes From: Glenna Jo & Bill Christen Date: Sat, 16 Aug 1997 09:30:34 -0700 - -Poster: Glenna Jo & Bill Christen Additional comments on Jim Berry's post... Daguerreotypes Silver-coated COPPER plates, the sensitizing agent was iodine, and the developing agent mercury...invented by Louis-Jaques-Maude Daguerre. When reflected in a light background the image appears to be a negative, while against a dark background it is a positive. These are one of a kind images and can be copied only by taking another photograph of it. Introduced 1839 Peak years 1852-1854 Waned 1858-1860 Last made 1865 (although there are still practitioners reviving the art today) Ambrotypes Negative image on a glass plates. Sensitizing agent is silver nitrate, developing agent is pyrogallic acid Invented by Frederick Scott Archer in UK and popularized by James Cutting in the US. Contact prints can be made taken from the glass plates. Introduced 1854 Peak years 1857-1859 Waned 1861 Last made 1865 (although there are still practitioners reviving the art today) Tintypes Same process as Ambrotypes but on a thin iron plate viewed a s a positive image because of the undercoating of black Japan varnish. In vented by Hamilton Smith and patented by Peter Neff in the US. Like dags they are one of a kind images. Introduced 1856 Peak Years 1860-63 Waned 1865 Last made 1867 (cased) and into the 1930's uncased (although there are still practitioners reviving the art today) Remember that dags and tintypes are "reversed" images as they are "mirror" images...as you would see yourself in a mirror. By reversing the glass plate you can print an image that is not reversed...as others see you. As photography is an important tool for understanding 19th century costume from the 1840s on, I feel it is important to understand it's history and technology of that period. Particularly useful when trying to date images. I recommend _The Collector's Guide to Early Photography_, by O. Henry Mace, Wallace -Homestead Book Company, Radbnor Pennsylvania, 1990. It is a good starting point. The material above is taken from that book. There are several other books on CdVs and stereocards (made from glass plate images) that are available. Visit the 19th century photography links on our home page (below). Bill Christen - -- gwjchris@rust.net Visit The Curiosity Shop! http://www.rust.net/~gwjchris/ ------------------------------ kerri canepa [40,224]CSuX:and now -- my summer project Subject: Re: H-COST: And now -- MY summer project From: Kerri Canepa Date: Sat, 16 Aug 1997 11:48:06 -0800 (ADT) - -Poster: Kerri Canepa On Fri, 15 Aug 1997, Karren Schaeffer wrote: > -Poster: Karren Schaeffer > > Okay, now you all have inspired me, and I surely do not need another > project. But in my front hall umbrella stand is a beautiful brown silk > umbrella with a tortoise handle and tine tips. One section is shot and > I have long thought of recovering it to use instead of just display > closed. Hmmm . . . there may even be enough cream silk left over in one > of my boxes. Having never done this should the grain of the fabric > 'slices' run across or from the pinacle to the tips, or should the > pieces be bias cut?? Now I remember why I haven't started this project. > Looking forward from hearing from someone who knows whats what. > > > Karren Since we seem to have started a discusssion about parasols, I have an elderly parasol in need of a home. As far as I can tell, the cover is made of nylon (the tag saying "made of Dupont nylon" might have something to do with that) and it needs some repairs. One of the supports for a rib has come loose from the cover and is bent. The handle is brass with gilding (that's wearing off) in a flat doorknob shape and there are some long thin strips of mother of pearl along the shaft near the handle (some are missing). The ribs and shaft are black painted/coated metal and the cover is black as well. My guess it is from the 40s at the very earliest. I don't know when nylon was used for umbrella covers nor if the Dupont company stopped labeling their nylon items as "made from Dupont nylon" at some point. Anyone interested? Kerri > ------------------------------ margo anderson [37,225]CSuX:rpfn get-together Subject: H-COST: H-Cost: RPFN get-together From: Margo Anderson Date: Fri, 16 Aug 1996 15:32:40 -0700 - -Poster: Margo Anderson Hi everyone: I've heard from some of you who are interested in the get-together, but there are a number of you who I *know* will be there, who haven't answered me. Leah Bob, Heather, Joan, and the rest of you, please let me know if you're interested. I asked Joceleyn about the possibility of the group being presented to the Queen, and here's what she has to say: > We could be presented as a >group of tailors, milliners, glovers, etc. come down from London hoping >to get comissions from the court (London is deserted, everyone is here >so we had to follow...). Since I am on progress as Lady North, I may be >able to play that you are all my most worthy suppliers and I am your >patron. > >As far as the trinket to present to the Queen, we can each have an item >of special skill representing our best work given to Her and designed to >impress all in attendance to obtain further orders. (This can be a >theatrical bit -- the items would be returned by a lady-in-waiting after >the Q leaves.) Just a suggestion on all this. I don't know how >involved you and everyone wants to be. This could be really fun and be >a great little bit of theatre! Or if you want it to simply be "Hi, >Queen, we love you and here's a bunch of flowers", it can go like that >too. Let me know what you'd like. > So, what do you all think of this idea? I love the idea of getting to show our stuff, how about the rest of you? Margo Anderson wander@hooked.net ------------------------------ sara j. davitt [31,226]CSuX:how i got into all this craziness Subject: H-COST: how I got into all this craziness From: "Sara J. Davitt" Date: Sat, 16 Aug 1997 17:44:23 -0500 (CDT) - -Poster: "Sara J. Davitt" > > > When you were all young (yeah, yeah, I know we are still young > madly>), say 'bout the ages 11 -17, what aspect of sewing/costuming got you > > "hooked" in the hobby/business/side show that you are now involved in? > > I've always dressed up.. (still do!--)and i used to make saris out of the fabric around the house, my mother made batik, and was an artist, who also did puppetry. her sewing skills are amazing, though she doesn't do it anymore.... In keeping with my 'attitude problem' I wanted nothing to do with it... I never finished the 'sweat suit' for girlscouts...(maybe that was less attitude and more asthetic) I just kept 'making stuff' until I was able to declare it as an official 'interest' and now every costume party, and every Faerie Princess day, I have a whole mess of stuff to wear! Now the intrest has floated to being use of garment to repress or glorify the personality. I am an Art student, like my mother.. :-) and now youse the information in what I make.. And now you know. Sarahj ------------------------------ aschell576@aol.com[7,227]CSuX:florida costume/reenactment groups Subject: Re: H-COST: Florida costume/reenactment groups From: ASchell576@aol.com Date: Sat, 16 Aug 1997 19:03:36 -0400 (EDT) - -Poster: ASchell576@aol.com I would also like to know of any groups in florida....i live in ft lauderdale (a cultural wasteland) and would love to be apart of this sort of group/club. ------------------------------ maggiros@aol.com[10,228]CSuX:duplications Subject: H-COST: Duplications From: MaggiRos@aol.com Date: Sat, 16 Aug 1997 19:40:46 -0400 (EDT) - -Poster: MaggiRos@aol.com I've just read through at least 10 messages I read last week--or earlier--each of themdated to day. What's with all the duplication--or is AOL "improving" the mail again. MaggiRos ------------------------------ julie adams [32,229]CSuX:florida costume/reenactment groups Subject: Re: H-COST: Florida costume/reenactment groups From: Julie Adams Date: Sat, 16 Aug 1997 18:34:34 -0700 - -Poster: Julie Adams >-Poster: ASchell576@aol.com > >I would also like to know of any groups in florida....i live in ft lauderdale >(a cultural wasteland) and would love to be apart of this sort of group/club. There is a Spanish Renaissance reenactment group somewhere in Florida. There used to be contact info in the Moderne Aviso. A link to the modern aviso from my landsknect page: http://www.st-mike.org/groups/german/homepage.html Look under Links/Historical/living history publications and magazines Julie Adams http://www.idyllmtn.com/savaskan/homepage.html http://www.lgd.org/ Drache 6yr rough stud, Kirsche 5.5 yr smooth bitch - "karabash" Shimmi - 8 month smooth bitch Savaskan Anatolian Shepherd Dogs aka "choban kopegi", "kangal kopegi", "chomar" Jon - 3 yr old son-- ASD in training Liebshon - housecat (Kirsche is the better mouser...) and 3 little hens....and 2 little white angora doe goats ------------------------------ joan m jurancich [21,230]CSuX:duplications Subject: Re: H-COST: Duplications From: Joan M Jurancich Date: Sat, 16 Aug 1997 19:15:21 -0700 - -Poster: Joan M Jurancich At 07:40 PM 8/16/97 -0400, MaggiRos@aol.com wrote: >-Poster: MaggiRos@aol.com > >I've just read through at least 10 messages I read last week--or >earlier--each of themdated to day. What's with all the duplication--or is >AOL "improving" the mail again. > >MaggiRos It's not just AOL this time. I received duplicates as well. Joan Jurancich Sacramento, California joanj@quiknet.com ================================== ------------------------------ jafath@aol.com[17,231]CSuX:and now -- my summer project Subject: Re: H-COST: And now -- MY summer project From: Jafath@aol.com Date: Sat, 16 Aug 1997 22:49:29 -0400 (EDT) - -Poster: Jafath@aol.com In a message dated 97-08-15 20:03:49 EDT, karrenlaw@earthlink.net writes: << Having never done this should the grain of the fabric 'slices' run across or from the pinacle to the tips, or should the pieces be bias cut?? >> Well, on this one in front of me, the grain runs on the radius of the circle (center out) and each section (rib to rib) is a separate piece, all seamed together. An enormous Lone Star sort of thing . . . Jo Anne ------------------------------ karren schaeffer [12,232]CSuX:duplications Subject: Re: H-COST: Duplications From: Karren Schaeffer Date: Sat, 16 Aug 1997 21:15:42 -0700 - -Poster: Karren Schaeffer MaggiRos It's not AOL, earthlink did it to me also. The only difference was I received all of the Thursday postings again today, but they were still dated Thursday. Sun spots, Hale-Bopp, Martian Rover overload??? Karren ------------------------------ melanie schuessler [38,233]CSuX:qe s ditchley portrait Subject: H-COST: QE's Ditchley portrait From: Melanie Schuessler Date: Sat, 16 Aug 1997 23:11:42 -0500 - -Poster: Melanie Schuessler Janet Arnold >>says that the robe (the part that's barely visible in the portrait) is gold >>and silver tissue. Can anyone tell me what the modern equivalent of tissue >>is? Is it brocade, or something else? My first thought was tissue lame (not able to produce the accent over the final "e"--it sounds like la-may). But after looking at the section on the Ditchley portrait in QE Wardrobe Unlocked (since this is probably one of your sources), I couldn't find any reference to tissue. For those who may have more ideas than me, here is Arnold's description of the robe (the outer gown, not the forepart, stomacher, sleeves, or lining of hanging sleeves): "the Queen wears a gown with hanging sleeves made from white silk with a secondary weft of silver metal threads, patterned with a large design in a raised looped pile of gold thread." (p. 43) In the event that I missed a mention of tissue, here is the definition from her glossary in case it helps anyone: "'Tissu, of the French Tissu, woven cloth of Tissu, with us cloth of silke and silver, or of silver and gold woven together' (M). When used in conjunction with 'raised', it would seem that the clerks are describing a looped pile of metal thread: [listings of relevant places in the book]" (p. 374) It does seem to have something in common with the Ditchley robe fabric as described above, but to return to the original question, I can't think of any modern fabric with a silk ground and a design in looped metal pile. Anyone? Regards, Melanie Schuessler mail to mjschues@students.wisc.edu or visit the Costume Goddess Home Page http://labweb.soemadison.wisc.edu/users/schuessler ------------------------------ melanie schuessler [54,234]CSuX:victorian tea dress-pg # Subject: RE: H-COST: Victorian Tea Dress-Pg # From: Melanie Schuessler Date: Sat, 16 Aug 1997 23:25:20 -0500 - -Poster: Melanie Schuessler Regarding this well-done drawing of the prospective tea-dress (below): it looks like it would work, but you would probably also want a dart at the right side where the side seam would be if there were one. Otherwise, you will have a loose section there regardless of darts in front and back. Also, you might consider double darts on each side of the front, as these were fairly common (I think), and lovely, and also make the shaping easier, especially for curvy figures. Incidentally, I don't see a mention that the dress is seamless. It does say "it is fitted by darts and extends far back on the sides"--is this what you meant? Perhaps I'm using a different edition? Mine has "Worth's Seamless Dress" on page 238. On 233 (the page you mention) is "Tea Gown from Worth." If you leave "seamless" out of your specs, the project gets a LOT easier! >Something like this maybe (I hope this comes out in the translation) > __ __ ___ ___ > | | | | | \ ____/ | > / \______/ \ / \ > ___/ \___/ \_____ > \ Front Back / > \ left / > \ / > \ / > | /\ /\ /\ /\ | > | | | | | | | | | | > / \/ \/ \/ \/ \ > / darts darts \ > / \ > / \ > | | > | | > | | > | | > | | > | | > | | > | | > | | > Good luck! Melanie Schuessler mail to mjschues@students.wisc.edu or visit the Costume Goddess Home Page http://labweb.soemadison.wisc.edu/users/schuessler ------------------------------ sara j. davitt [25,235]CSuX:queenly gifts Subject: H-COST: Queenly Gifts From: "Sara J. Davitt" Date: Sun, 17 Aug 1997 01:20:24 -0500 (CDT) - -Poster: "Sara J. Davitt" > >As far as the trinket to present to the Queen, we can each have an item > >of special skill representing our best work given to Her and designed to > >impress all in attendance to obtain further orders. (This can be a > >theatrical bit -- the items would be returned by a lady-in-waiting after > >the Q leaves.) Just a suggestion on all this. I don't know how > >involved you and everyone wants to be. This could be really fun and be > >a great little bit of theatre! Or if you want it to simply be "Hi, > >Queen, we love you and here's a bunch of flowers", it can go like that > >too. Let me know what you'd like. perhaps I'm out of the loop... but... is this a Ren_Faire Queen?.. or Queen of England? Because I worked for a company last summer that made tea-rose tea napkins for a client to send to the the Queen of England. she got a lovely thank you note back, and I am able to say that I touched something the queen has. wheeee! Sarahj ------------------------------ lee and bill [17,236]CSuX:qe s ditchley portrait Subject: Re: H-COST: QE's Ditchley portrait From: Lee and Bill Date: Sat, 16 Aug 1997 23:29:42 -0700 - -Poster: Lee and Bill Melanie Schuessler wrote: > (SNIP) > the original question, I can't think of any modern fabric with a silk > ground and a design in looped metal pile. Anyone? Hmmm, know anybody who does "Pretty Punch"? (It's similar to rug hooking, but on fabric, makes a looped design.) Get them to do a design in gold thread on silver lame'... Lee ------------------------------ maggiros@aol.com[15,237]CSuX:rpfn get-together Subject: Re: H-COST: H-Cost: RPFN get-together From: MaggiRos@aol.com Date: Sun, 17 Aug 1997 04:20:40 -0400 (EDT) - -Poster: MaggiRos@aol.com In a message dated 97-08-16 20:08:59 EDT, wander@hooked.net (Margo Anderson) writes: > > So, what do you all think of this idea? I love the idea of getting to show > our stuff, how about the rest of you? What a great idea! have we settled on what weekend this will be? MaggiRos ------------------------------ morghana@aol.com[17,238]CSuX:duplications Subject: Re: H-COST: Duplications From: Morghana@aol.com Date: Sun, 17 Aug 1997 10:07:36 -0400 (EDT) - -Poster: Morghana@aol.com In a message dated 97-08-17 01:38:40 EDT, joanj@quiknet.com (Joan M Jurancich) writes: << It's not just AOL this time. I received duplicates as well. >> Oh, since my newsgroup postings were taking more than 48 hours to hit the servers, I figured AOL was .......um..... "doing maintenance" again...... I guess I'm glad to know it's not just AOL's fault this time..... ~Morghana ------------------------------ henk t jong [40,239]CSuX:duplications Subject: Re: H-COST: Duplications From: "Henk 't Jong" Date: Sun, 17 Aug 1997 17:19:37 +0200 - -Poster: "Henk 't Jong" Henk & Pauline 't Jong tScapreel Medieval Advisors Dordrecht, Netherlands - ---------- > Van: Joan M Jurancich > Aan: MaggiRos@aol.com; h-costume@world.std.com > Onderwerp: Re: H-COST: Duplications > Datum: zondag 17 augustus 1997 4:15 > > -Poster: Joan M Jurancich > > At 07:40 PM 8/16/97 -0400, MaggiRos@aol.com wrote: > >-Poster: MaggiRos@aol.com > > > >I've just read through at least 10 messages I read last week--or > >earlier--each of themdated to day. What's with all the duplication--or is > >AOL "improving" the mail again. > > > >MaggiRos > > It's not just AOL this time. I received duplicates as well. > > Joan Jurancich > Sacramento, California > joanj@quiknet.com > ================================== > And me, Henk ------------------------------ madly@wired2.net (s. bergdahl)[32,240]CSuX:(none) Subject: [none] From: madly@wired2.net (S. Bergdahl) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 1997 08:27:07 -0700 - -Poster: madly@wired2.net (S. Bergdahl) << Gia Gavino-Gattshall wrote: > When you were all young (yeah, yeah, I know we are still young madly>), say 'bout the ages 11 -17, what aspect of sewing/costuming got >you "hooked" in the hobby/business/side show that you are now involved >in? For me it was the SCA. I was sixteen, and the odd man out. Everyone in school considered me strange, or just plain weird. So when the base paper printed a artical about the local chapter of the SCA I looked them up. And found a place where I was not only normal, but a little boring! So, in order to play at this I needed costumes. My mothers responice to the recquest for costumes was "The sewing machine is in the spare bedroom. Have fun!" The rest as they say is history. After a number of REALLY bad costumes. (I have them locked away in a trunk, and look at them any time something doesn't come out perfect. Helps put thing in perpective.) It started out with the SCA, moved on to the civil war, then Fort Sutter, and every other living history program in the state. And the crazy part is I still love it! And now I am seeing if I can make a living at Costuming. (Pray for me!) Stephen Bergdahl Madly Stitching - Sacramento CA madly@wired2.net (S. Bergdahl) ------------------------------ cornie rutherford [59,241]CSuX:how i got hooked & rust wrap-up Subject: H-COST: How I got hooked & rust wrap-up From: Cornie Rutherford Date: Sun, 17 Aug 1997 13:30:31 -0400 - -Poster: Cornie Rutherford << Gia Gavino-Gattshall wrote: > When you were all young (yeah, yeah, I know we are still young madly>), say 'bout the ages 11 -17, what aspect of sewing/costuming got >you "hooked" in the hobby/business/side show that you are now involved > I've been sewing my clothes along side my mother and grandmother since I was 9. I took it up in earnest and for self defense two years later. That's the year I stopped growing up (at 5'3") and started growing out (to a 38DD) NOTHING fit in the early '60s. Then Twiggy came along and gave bosoms a bad name. All this alterations experience REALLY came into play years later when, at the same age, my daughter stopped growing up ( at 4'10") and started growing out (28 C, and no, 32A is NOT the same fit). To top it off, she's a perfect commercial size 0 everywhere else AND an actress. Not even the professional theaters in which she worked has ever had anything small enough to fit so I was detoured from fashion sewing to costume design and creation. At 19, she's 1000 miles away studying film production and a working actor for both stage and screen. The phone continues to ring in the middle of the night. ("Mom, I need a 'space tinkerbelle' costume for a shoot in 10 days. This incredibly stupid rag they want me to wear falls off if I shrug my shoulders! I told them my mom does ALL my costumes. Showed them my book so they said OK. It needs to be silver. Thanks, Bye") My best friend is a hand work aficionado (beads, fine embroidery, etc) and an insomniac artist who interprets my chicken scratch designs into gorgeous 11 X14 sketches as if she were inside my head. We compliment each other in skills and interests so each project gets a well rounded feel. What a wonderful creative outlet since my "day job" deals with the depressing and unsavory and hers is just plain boring as hell. This group has been a real life-line to the world of fabric fondlers and pattern stashers. BTW - to all of you who responded to the RUST REMOVAL plea. Oxalic acid, either in the form of the commercial product WINK or self mixed from powdered form purchased at the pharmacy was the # 1 response. #2 was hydrogen peroxide + sunlight. Lace applique was the #1 suggested work-around. As for restoring the sheen on the satin, ironing while wet was suggested almost unanimously, some included a spray sizing product but tests on present day satin scraps was best without. For anyone else facing this dilema, I would be happy to provide the name, phone and address of a wonderful bridal gown restoration firm in Merrifield, Va. If you're not local, you can ship gowns to them for evaluation and restoration. I was VERY impressed with how enthusiastic, knowledgeable and helpful these folks are. This was my suggested solution to the owner. Thanks to A.W. for the personal reference. My friend chose NOT to pay for the restoration but to come over and try the oxalic acid + sunlight approach and let the shreds fall where they may. I'm happy to report that the results are very gratifying, although not 100%. The stains that remain are very faint and only noticeable with close-up scrutiny. I've coffee dyed some ivory satin covered buttons to a near match (tea gave a browner ecru while coffee produced a better champagne/gray ecru) and the dress will be going down the aisle on September 28. - Cornie ------------------------------ mzscahlett@aol.com[29,242]CSuX:qe s ditchley portrait Subject: Re: H-COST: QE's Ditchley portrait From: MzScahlett@aol.com Date: Sun, 17 Aug 1997 13:38:10 -0400 (EDT) - -Poster: MzScahlett@aol.com Melanie, I'm not well versed in ancient fabrics, but the description sound to me like some sort of brocade, perhaps of silk. Is that possible? Angela In a message dated 97-08-17 01:10:48 EDT, mjschues@students.wisc.edu (Melanie Schuessler) writes: << It does seem to have something in common with the Ditchley robe fabric as described above, but to return to the original question, I can't think of any modern fabric with a silk ground and a design in looped metal pile. Anyone? Regards, Melanie Schuessler mail to mjschues@students.wisc.edu or visit the Costume Goddess Home Page http://labweb.soemadison.wisc.edu/users/schuessler >> ------------------------------ m311@aol.com[23,243]CSuX:list problem? Subject: Re: H-COST: List problem? From: M311@aol.com Date: Sun, 17 Aug 1997 17:04:03 -0400 (EDT) - -Poster: M311@aol.com In a message dated 97-08-09 18:36:33 EDT, you write: << Other than that, what's up with the rest of the list? I know the two groups mentioned above aren't ALL of you.... :) >> I spent a week at my Mother-in-laws making pickles. I didn't have a computer to take with me. I am now playing catch-up with mail and house work. I sewed a dress for her and did lots of fabric washing while there. I also ate and cleaned. Not much sleeping there. They finally got their much needed rain though, the whole week I was there. It was still raining when we left this morning. A lot cooler though now. Now to get back to sewing, I have a wedding in a couple of weeks and need something to wear. I have lots of ideas but need to narrow it down to that one special one. Take care and happy non-stressful sewing, Kelly Albrecht m311@aol.com ------------------------------ sustre@pixelations.com (sustre)[19,244]CSuX:rust removal Subject: H-COST: re: Rust removal From: sustre@pixelations.com (Sustre) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 1997 18:48:58 -0500 - -Poster: sustre@pixelations.com (Sustre) >Can you tell me where to purchase the oxalic acid??? What kind of store and >does it have any other names?? I think I bought it at a good drugstore or pharmacy. I asked the druggist for it. I did have to check a few places before I found one that had it. I just got a small jar and it lasts forever- one only uses a tiny amount at a time. As far as I know, it doesn't have another name. A chemical supply house is another possibility; I may have contact info for one that does small quantities. I need to find it to order some materials for metalworking, so let me know it the drugstore idea doesn't work out! - -Sustre :) ------------------------------ cliff cheetham [15,245]CSuX:bleaching linen Subject: H-COST: Bleaching Linen From: Cliff Cheetham Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 00:42:14 +0100 - -Poster: Cliff Cheetham What will be the effect of using ordinary household bleach on white linen to remove stains, as you would cottons? Will it affect the overall colour of the shirt and if si will it go whiter or yellower? I thing the stain is petrol or something like it on a white linen shirt. Best wishes, Sally Ann Chandler The Historical Clothing Company c.cheetham@virgin.net ------------------------------ melanie schuessler [34,246]CSuX:qe s ditchley portrait fabric Subject: H-COST: QE's Ditchley portrait fabric From: Melanie Schuessler Date: Sun, 17 Aug 1997 22:42:45 -0500 - -Poster: Melanie Schuessler Angela wrote >I'm not well versed in ancient fabrics, but the description sound to me like >some sort of brocade, perhaps of silk. Is that possible? Well, the problem is that this fabric, according to J. Arnold, has a design that is actually a raised loop pile--sort of like terrycloth, only in metallic gold or silver. So it would be a flat silk ground (white with silver threads) with a large design (she doesn't say what pattern) that stands up in loops of gold thread. There are close-ups of similar fabric in QE's Wardrobe Unlocked (figs 19, 90, 91) if you have the book to look at. To make it even more complicated, the pictures of this similar fabric show two different heights of pile. This similar fabric has a pattern which I would hesitantly identify as a "pomegranate." (Anyone who has the book and also a clue about pattern names please correct me!) All of the modern brocade that I've seen has the pattern woven flat in satin-weave across the ground. I know there are some brocades that have a metallic pattern, but I've never seen one with a pile. Lee's suggestion of "Pretty Punch" might be the only solution. Regards, Melanie Schuessler mail to mjschues@students.wisc.edu or visit the Costume Goddess Home Page http://labweb.soemadison.wisc.edu/users/schuessler ------------------------------ don & carolyn richardson [12,247]CSuX:removing masking tape adhesive Subject: H-COST: Removing masking tape adhesive From: Don & Carolyn Richardson Date: Sun, 17 Aug 1997 21:04:19 -0700 - -Poster: Don & Carolyn Richardson I'm sure we beat this to death in the past but can anyone recommend a way to remove the adhesive residue from masking tape from silk? I'm afraid to use GooGone on it since that's petroleum based and I think might stain the silk. Any other suggestions? Carolyn ------------------------------ lee and bill [44,248]CSuX:color removal Subject: Re: H-COST: Color Removal From: Lee and Bill Date: Sun, 17 Aug 1997 17:54:03 -0700 - -Poster: Lee and Bill In a book on hooking rugs I found a technique for removing color from wool. Experimentation showed it works on SOME wools, and some other fabrics as well. I found the technique in two different books, but it is essentially the same. The older book (1947) said to use "a very little soda in water" - -- didn't specify washing soda or baking soda. Put in the cloth and bring to a boil. The newer book (1977) specified "1 teaspoon of any detergent with bleach per quart of water." Boil the cloth 10 minutes. Both books warned against boiling too long, because it would rot the fibers. They both also said that any remaining color would continue to fade over time, unless it was set, or redyed and the new dye set. I tried baking soda first, and it removed some dye from a deep purple wool, and a little from some fuschia acetate (though not much from either). Then I added some Arm & Hammer Heavy Duty detergent (without bleach). The dark purple wool faded to gray-lavender. The fuschia acetate is now old rose -- oddly, the frayed fibers at all four edges faded to a pale peach. Printed cottons were not affected by either method (maybe if there had been bleach in the detergent?) A dark gray wool also stayed dark. I boiled (with detergent) a white cotton guaze shirt that had been washed with something red about 10 years ago. It had been washed and machine-dried a couple of time since then. I boiled the shirt for about 10 minutes. The only stain left was in a thick seam. Unfortunately, I'm a slow learner, and tossed it into the washer with a pink blouse I had also lightened. Boiling the guaze shirt once again in detergent did not remove its new all-over pale pink color (at least the color is even now). Dyes will also transfer while you are boiling them out of fabrics, so don't mix light and dark in the same pot. Lee ------------------------------ bronwens@aol.com[11,249]CSuX:florida costume/reenactment groups Subject: Re: H-COST: Florida costume/reenactment groups From: BronwenS@aol.com Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 09:24:07 -0400 (EDT) - -Poster: BronwenS@aol.com If anyone is interested in the SCA groups in the Florida area, please e-mail me privately and I can get you the address and number of who to contact there. The Society for Creative Anachronism deals mainly in the areas from 600 to 1600 AD. Bronwen ------------------------------ bronwens@aol.com[17,250]CSuX:regency gown construction Subject: Re: H-COST: Regency gown construction From: BronwenS@aol.com Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 09:37:02 -0400 (EDT) - -Poster: BronwenS@aol.com In a message dated 97-08-17 16:40:18 EDT, you write: << A real gown in the period you're doing out of the real stuff could be wadded up & fit in your pocket....no lie! >> Ok...would that be the BIG pockets everyone is talking about...or more the jean pocket type...:) Bronwen SMILE--it makes people wonder what you're up to! ------------------------------ melanie schuessler [22,251]CSuX:removing masking tape adhesive Subject: Re: H-COST: Removing masking tape adhesive From: Melanie Schuessler Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 10:57:21 -0500 - -Poster: Melanie Schuessler >I'm sure we beat this to death in the past but can anyone recommend a >way to remove the adhesive residue from masking tape from silk? I'm >afraid to use GooGone on it since that's petroleum based and I think >might stain the silk. Any other suggestions? I've never tried it on fabric, so I can't recommend it, but one way to remove adhesive goo from other surfaces is to simply apply rubbing alcohol and rub till the goo is gone. Good luck Melanie Schuessler mail to mjschues@students.wisc.edu or visit the Costume Goddess Home Page http://labweb.soemadison.wisc.edu/users/schuessler ------------------------------ david_key@vnet.ibm.com[100,252]CSuX:c15th hats Subject: H-COST: c15th Hats From: david_key@VNET.IBM.COM Date: Mon, 18 Aug 97 16:57:20 BST - -Poster: david_key@VNET.IBM.COM Sorry not to have replied earlier ... Last week I said that ... >> London also imported large quantities of straw hats ... >From where? Didn't the peasants have enough time to make their >own? (but they had enough money...?) Good question(s), probably Flanders but it is a bit difficult to tell from the London Import Accounts as they list the items and the ship that brought them in .... and where the ship's home port was ... mainly Antwerp, London & Bergen ... but not where the goods actually came from. Occasionally you can guess based on the other items ... but it is guess work. Occasionally you can tell by the name of the garment .... e.g. St Omer Hats occur fairly frequently. Anyway ... back to straw hats ... and why buy a hat when you can make it yourself? The first question to ask is who was buying the hats and why. Because a hat is made from straw it does not necessarily mean that it is a summer hat for peasants in the fields. A close inspection of the hat worn in the Arnolfingi Wedding portrait by Van Eyck shows the 'groom' wearing a large & elaborate black straw hat ... and he is certainly no peasant! This style of hat does appear to have had a brief flirtation with fashion in the 1st half of the c15th in Flanders (if I recall there is a portrtait of Philip of Burgundy wearing a similar hat ... but I need to check). However, having suggested that London's imported hats might not be low-class hats I think that the evidence that does exist would suggest that in fact, in this instance, they were. Why? 2 reasons... 1. The 'fashionable' hat I mentioned above is c.40 years earlier & I don't believe there was an equivilant fashion in the 1480's. 2. When I glanced back through the records for 1480-81 I was amazed at how many straw hats were being brought in ... OVER 30,000!! & where the price can be guaged these varied from the cheap & chearful (0.5d-> 0.2d) to the moderately priced (1d-2d). Possibly reflecting a variation in quality ... or demand/market price ... the low price hats were mainly imported 'out of season' in March .... whilst the more expensive were mainly imported in June. (The price is not easy to guage as the records show the valuation cargoes not items within the cargo ... so an estimate can only be made when the hats are the only item ... which is uncommon). If you consider the lower price of 0.5d then this equates to about, at most, a 1/4 of an unskilled labourers wage ... (The Howard's accounts for the 1480's include wages for sowing 3d/day & for hay saving at 8d/day) the cost of the hat becomes equivilant approx. 2 hours work ... so the practicality of making vs buying becomes more questionable ... also it is possible that hats of this type could be supplied as livery ... certainly the Howards accounts show gloves being issued to labourers ... in which case bulk buying would be eminently practical. In addition not everyone would have the skill to make a straw hat. We should avoid making assumptions based on an image of a idyllic rural past ... c15th England, and in particular London, had long since ceased to be such a place. Labourers weaving cloth would be unlikely to have either the time or skill to make hats ... So why import them ??? I do not doubt that the vast majority of straw hats worn in England were made in England ... however large urban markets would look to the cheapest & most readily available source ... and for London this appears to have been Flanders, at least for a part of the trade ... unfortunately Import records only show imported goods ... not the goods brought into the town for sale locally. Also I mentioned 'Copyn' Hats ... many thanks to Henk for putting a whole new angle on the topic ... it just goes to show. I think I prefer his explanation to the books ... it makes more sense as the hats were imported from Flanders ... definitely worth a bit more looking into. >> copyn' hatte ... suggested may be a variant of copul' or from copota >> a high-crowned hat >> worn by the controller > Fascinating stuff: I had to laugh, though. In Dutch 'cop pyn' or > 'koppijn' means: head ache. A too narrow hat? Cheers, Dave The White Company (1450-1485) ------------------------------ End of h-costume-digest V1 #45 ****************************** h-costume-digest-approval@world.std.com (h-costume-digest)[36,253]CSuX:h-costume-digest v1 #46 Subject: h-costume-digest V1 #46 From: h-costume-digest-approval@world.std.com (h-costume-digest) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 12:36:36 -0400 (EDT) h-costume-digest Tuesday, August 19 1997 Volume 01 : Number 046 In this issue: Re: H-COST: c15th Hats Re: H-COST: QE's Ditchley portrait H-COST: American Broadcloth H-COST: Caps and Cap wires H-COST: Ditchley Gown Re: H-COST: QE's Ditchley portrait H-COST: Re: Black diamonds H-COST: Hist-Cost: In Royal Fashion (book) H-COST: H-Cost: In Royal Fashion (info) Re: H-COST: Ditchley Gown RE: H-COST: Ditchley Gown Re: H-COST: Ditchley Gown Re: H-COST: Re: Black diamonds Re: H-COST: Ditchley Gown H-COST: Friends Patterns H-COST: Series: Costume of the Western World Re: H-COST: A small question H-COST: C15th Hats H-COST: Various - but much about breeches! Re: H-COST: Various - but much about breeches! H-COST: How I got started Re: H-COST: Please help me! Re: H-COST: Various - but much about breeches! Re: H-COST: Hemispheric discrimination H-COST: H-Cost: In Royal Fashion (ordering) Re: H-COST: Various - but much about breeches! H-COST: Anyone interested in Naval History? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- cynthia virtue [14,254]CSuX:c15th hats Subject: Re: H-COST: c15th Hats From: Cynthia Virtue Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 09:31:59 -0700 (PDT) - -Poster: Cynthia Virtue That's fascinating! How can one tell that the Arnolfingi wedding portrait black hat is straw? (I would have supposed it was felted wool.) Are there clear 'hallmarks' that the average viewer could use when looking at such paintings to discern what the hat is really made of? Thank you, Cynthia ------------------------------ pnomail@bratshb.uwc.edu[15,255]CSuX:qe s ditchley portrait Subject: Re: H-COST: QE's Ditchley portrait From: pnomail@bratshb.uwc.edu Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 11:53:07 -0500 - -Poster: pnomail@bratshb.uwc.edu I risk sounding really ignorant here, but does the fabric have to be a silk ground? There are available (if you happen to stumble across them) nylon based tissue lames that have a raised design. Some even have loops, like terry or chenile, in patterns. It certainly wouldn't be perfect, but the fabric can be used to nice effect. Just thought I'd suggest a possible other choice. DJ on her husband's account ------------------------------ joan m jurancich [25,256]CSuX:american broadcloth Subject: H-COST: American Broadcloth From: Joan M Jurancich Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 11:06:49 -0700 - -Poster: Joan M Jurancich While surfing the net last night, I came across a home page ( http://sensei.com/users/amerbroad/ ) for a company called American Broadcloth, owned by Dave Winer & Bob Gurney (P.O. Box 5784, Marlboro, MA 01752; telephone 617-965-6938; email: amerbroad@aol.com). Quoting from their page: "... The cloth was used as a trade item with Native Americans. [long...] American Broadcloth is proud to produce only American Made product, produced on machines that were originally water driven. This assures the buyer that the cloth's texture is the same as the originals made in previous centuries. Our company is the largest manufacturer of broadcloth and fourway blankets, available in several colors. ..." Has anyone on this list dealt with this firm? I'm going to send for their catalog and samples, so I'll report back to the list if no one is familiar with their products. Joan Jurancich Sacramento, California joanj@quiknet.com ================================== ------------------------------ laurie kittle [33,257]CSuX:caps and cap wires Subject: H-COST: Caps and Cap wires From: Laurie Kittle Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 15:21:54 -0400 - -Poster: Laurie Kittle List, I just read an article in the Colonial Williamsburg magazine (Summer 1997) about the excavations at Martin's Hundred by Ivor Noel Hume. Apparently they found (years ago) the skull of an old woman that they referred to as "Granny." Apparently Granny had an odd piece of wire wrapped around her head. It went over her ears and rested low on her the back of her head. From the diagrams, it looks to be just at the hairline. Apparently, none of the archeologists could figure it out. The piece of wire turned out to be a cap securing device. Of course, this leads to some costume questions?? The article that provoked this discovery was Dutch. Were these cap securers only used in Holland? Did it only exist in the 17th c. or did it survive into the 18th? And, most importantly, did it give you a headache?? Laurie laurie.kittle@predictive.com For RevWar folks, this same magazine also has a wonderful article on the African-American slaves and freedman who fought in the war. It changed my perception of who was fighting in the war. After Yorktown, a private in the British army wrote "All over the place and wherever you looked, ...corpses...lying about that had not been buried; the larger part of these were "Mohren." (Without German skills, I assume that Mohren means black.) ------------------------------ margo anderson [42,258]CSuX:ditchley gown Subject: H-COST: Ditchley Gown From: Margo Anderson Date: Sun, 18 Aug 1996 12:52:12 -0700 - -Poster: Margo Anderson Thanks for all your input on my Ditchley Dress project. By the way, the reason I'm making it in 1/3 scale is as an entry in a doll show. I found a very good reproduction of the painting online, at http://dept.english.upenn.edu/~jsaeger/english-30/materials/introduction/eli zabeth_1-g2.jpeg. My husband took me on a "guided tour" of the dress, using the miraculous powers of Paint Shop Pro. I`'ve made the following clonclusions, and I'd like opinions from you all. Firstly, the fabric of the gown,(the part that shows at the sides of her skirt) which Arnold says is silver and gold, is definately red and gold. If there are silver parts in the design, they're very small. I can't tell anything about the texture, so I don't know if it's a looped pile or not. At any rate, I doubt I can teach myself Pretty Punch well enough to do it on this small scale by October, so I'll be using brocade. I believe that the gridwork on the heart-shaped collar/veil is a metal supportasse, as the jewelwork around the edge would have been far too heavy for a simple wired edge to hold. And, of course, I have new questions to wonder about. Arnold says the jeweled buttons on the gown are set with pearls, rubies, and diamonds. I see pearls and rubies, but the other stones are black! My husband diddled (technical term) around with the colors, and he's convinced it's not just a case of a colored stone photographed darker. The stones in the jewelry and in the crown are also black and red. This seems unlikely to me. I know they had jet, but it just doesn' tseem right. Could it be the pigments in the paint changing over the years, or some other cause? Could any of the list members in London run down to the National Gallery and check for me? And, finally, does anyone know where I can get teardrop shaped pearls smaller than 1/4" long? Margo Anderson ------------------------------ kate pinner [17,259]CSuX:qe s ditchley portrait Subject: Re: H-COST: QE's Ditchley portrait From: kate pinner Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 16:53:59 -0500 - -Poster: kate pinner > (SNIP) > > the original question, I can't think of any modern fabric with a silk > > ground and a design in looped metal pile. Anyone? In NYC on 39th Street (maybe 38th?) I found something that was sort of a chiffon with pink velvet and silver "velvet" -- sort of a cut velvet type of thing with the cutaway parts like chiffon. Have absolutely no idea if it was really silk and I'm sure it wasn't really sterling but the silver was metallic. This particular piece was pretty gaudy but worked on stage. Kate ------------------------------ mhamilto@pop.service.ohio-state.edu (marsha hamilton)[25,260]CSuX:black diamonds Subject: H-COST: Re: Black diamonds From: mhamilto@pop.service.ohio-state.edu (Marsha Hamilton) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 17:17:45 -0400 - -Poster: mhamilto@pop.service.ohio-state.edu (Marsha Hamilton) I wondered about the "black" stones in Elizabethan jewelry until I ran across a citation (long lost) that insisted they WERE diamonds. Whether they were foil backed with silver that causes them to look dark, or it is simply a convention to portray diamonds darkly, if you look at existing Tudor pieces at the Victoria and Albert (and elsewhere), they are set with diamonds, not jet. Marsha ********* >..............Arnold says the >jeweled buttons on the gown are set with pearls, rubies, and diamonds. I >see pearls and rubies, but the other stones are black! ...The stones in >the >jewelry and in the crown are also black and red. This seems unlikely >to me. I >know they had jet, but it just doesn' tseem right. Could it be >the pigments in >the paint changing over the years, or some other cause? Could any of the >list members in London run down to the National Gallery and check for me? ------------------------------ ccary@tiara.engr.sgi.com (christina cary)[26,261]CSuX:hist-cost: in royal fashion (book) Subject: H-COST: Hist-Cost: In Royal Fashion (book) From: ccary@tiara.engr.sgi.com (Christina Cary) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 14:57:54 -0700 - -Poster: ccary@tiara.engr.sgi.com (Christina Cary) Hi Costumers, I was in the bookstore looking at the English magazine "Majesty" when I saw that they have an article about an exhibit currently running at the Museum of London. It is called "In Royal Fashion" and apparently features clothing worn by Queen Victoria and Princess Charlotte. I only scanned it because I did not have time to read the whole thing. There is an exhibit catalog, which the magazine is offering free as giveaways to its UK readers. I asked at the front desk of the bookstore if they could order this book for me from the UK. Not surprisingly they were ill equipped to answer my request so I'm not sure if I'll be able to get it from them or not. www.amazon.com doesn't list it. Anyone have any other ideas on how to get this book? Thank you! Christina - -- ------------------------------ ccary@tiara.engr.sgi.com (christina cary)[18,262]CSuX:in royal fashion (info) Subject: H-COST: H-Cost: In Royal Fashion (info) From: ccary@tiara.engr.sgi.com (Christina Cary) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 15:09:22 -0700 - -Poster: ccary@tiara.engr.sgi.com (Christina Cary) Hi Costumers, I did some more searching and found the WWW site for the Museum of London: http://www.museum-london.org.uk/MOLsite/menu.htm There are some nice pictures of garments and an inquiry form. I sent in a request asking how to buy the exhibit catalog (book). It is 45 pounds hardback and 29.95 pounds softcover. Christina - -- ------------------------------ asia reva poppers [24,263]CSuX:ditchley gown Subject: Re: H-COST: Ditchley Gown From: Asia Reva Poppers Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 18:28:00 -0400 - -Poster: Asia Reva Poppers At 12:52 PM 8/18/96 -0700, Margo Anderson wrote: >-Poster: Margo Anderson > >And, finally, does anyone know where I can get teardrop shaped pearls >smaller than 1/4" long? > >Margo Anderson > Margo, do you need natural pearls or would faux do? If fakes are o.k., email me--I can get some that are about 1/8" long. Yours, Asia apoppers@div.harvard.edu ------------------------------ donna holsten [32,264]CSuX:ditchley gown Subject: RE: H-COST: Ditchley Gown From: "Donna Holsten" Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 15:35:11 -0600 (CST) - -Poster: "Donna Holsten" > And, of course, I have new questions to wonder about. Arnold says the > jeweled buttons on the gown are set with pearls, rubies, and diamonds. I > see pearls and rubies, but the other stones are black! My dear husband, the jeweler, just answered this one for me. Apparently, by the 16th Century, they still didn't really do much faceting on diamonds. The best they had was a "table cut", which looks like a pyramid with the point lopped off. Also, they would put a "reflector" behind the diamond. This reflector was blackened with lamp-black. Somehow, the combination of the black reflector and the table-cut "made the light reflect differently" but also made the diamond look black, rather than the brilliant white we moderns are used to. Seems to me that it would defeat the purpose of having a diamond, if it was black rather than white, but that's what they did. (And if anyone wants more info, write to my husband directly at timbeck@ix.netcom.com.) Also, regarding the fabric--it probably is brocade, which is (as others have said) a silk ground with metallic threads laying on the surface of the fabric, making the pattern. You could simulate a brocade by getting a "pomegranate pattern" upholstery fabric and darning in metallic threads along the surface, in parallel lines, along the pattern. And for another picture of the "metal terrycloth", try to find a good closeup picture of the Eleanora of Toledo portrait in the white/brown/black/gold dress. The gold is actually loops--which would have been made like uncut velvet. Donna Holsten ------------------------------ joan m jurancich [49,265]CSuX:ditchley gown Subject: Re: H-COST: Ditchley Gown From: Joan M Jurancich Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 16:29:21 -0700 - -Poster: Joan M Jurancich At 12:52 PM 8/18/96 -0700, Margo Anderson wrote: >-Poster: Margo Anderson > >Thanks for all your input on my Ditchley Dress project. By the way, the >reason I'm making it in 1/3 scale is as an entry in a doll show. > > I found a very good reproduction of the painting online, at >http://dept.english.upenn.edu/~jsaeger/english-30/materials/introduction/eli >zabeth_1-g2.jpeg. > >My husband took me on a "guided tour" of the dress, using the miraculous >powers of Paint Shop Pro. I`'ve made the following clonclusions, and I'd >like opinions from you all. > >Firstly, the fabric of the gown,(the part that shows at the sides of her >skirt) which Arnold says is silver and gold, is definately red and gold. >If there are silver parts in the design, they're very small. I can't tell >anything about the texture, so I don't know if it's a looped pile or not. [snip] >And, of course, I have new questions to wonder about. Arnold says the >jeweled buttons on the gown are set with pearls, rubies, and diamonds. I >see pearls and rubies, but the other stones are black! My husband diddled >(technical term) around with the colors, and he's convinced it's not just a >case of a colored stone photographed darker. The stones in the jewelry and >in the crown are also black and red. This seems unlikely to me. I know >they had jet, but it just doesn' tseem right. Could it be the pigments in >the paint changing over the years, or some other cause? Could any of the >list members in London run down to the National Gallery and check for me? Paint colors DO change over the years. The exact changes depend upon the chemical nature of the paint. And one color may be layered over another to increase the "richness" of the top color. I wonder if the diamonds and silver colors were done with silver paint or foil; over the years they can tarnish (this apparently happened with some of the miniatures, where dots of silver were used to give highlights to pearls...and the dots are now black). [snip] >Margo Anderson Joan Jurancich Sacramento, California joanj@quiknet.com ================================== ------------------------------ mzscahlett@aol.com[15,266]CSuX:black diamonds Subject: Re: H-COST: Re: Black diamonds From: MzScahlett@aol.com Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 20:40:11 -0400 (EDT) - -Poster: MzScahlett@aol.com In a message dated 97-08-18 17:21:08 EDT, mhamilto@pop.service.ohio-state.edu writes: << I wondered about the "black" stones in Elizabethan jewelry until I ran across a citation (long lost) that insisted they WERE diamonds. >> There are diamonds that are called "black" diamonds. They are smoky grey and dark in color. Angela ------------------------------ mzscahlett@aol.com[15,267]CSuX:ditchley gown Subject: Re: H-COST: Ditchley Gown From: MzScahlett@aol.com Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 20:46:15 -0400 (EDT) - -Poster: MzScahlett@aol.com In a message dated 97-08-18 18:54:48 EDT, apoppers@div.harvard.edu writes: << And, finally, does anyone know where I can get teardrop shaped pearls >smaller than 1/4" long? > >Margo Anderson >> Margo, have you heard of Ornamental Resources in Colorado? They have everything you could ever wish for in sew-on's, beads, jewels, findings, etc., etc. ------------------------------ tudorldy@aol.com[18,268]CSuX:friends patterns Subject: H-COST: Friends Patterns From: Tudorldy@aol.com Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 22:00:41 -0400 (EDT) - -Poster: Tudorldy@aol.com Does anyone here have a *current* address or location for Friends' Patterns? (They make patterns for 'plain' or Amish-style clothing). I have seen two addresses during an internet search for them, one of which I *knew* was wrong - - the state said 'Oregon' and it was definitely an Ohio zip code. I have a couple of their patterns, and I'd like to add more to my collection. If anyone has had relatively recent (like within the last year) contact with them, please let me know. Or, alternatively, if anyone out there is a authorized distributor of their goods, I would also appreciate hearing from you. Many thanks, Meagn E. Maguire [TudorLdy@aol.com] ------------------------------ tudorldy@aol.com[39,269]CSuX:series: costume of the western world Subject: H-COST: Series: Costume of the Western World From: Tudorldy@aol.com Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 22:00:40 -0400 (EDT) - -Poster: Tudorldy@aol.com Costume of the Western World appears to be a series of monographs which were published in the early 1950s by George G. Harrap & Company, Ltd. Although I would normally regard costume history works of that vintage with some doubt, the four volumes I have been able to locate are fairly authoritative and use contemporary portraiture and representations. I am fairly canny about finding out-of-print books, and therefore am somewhat frustrated by the information I find on the back flap of the dustjackets - 'Complete List of the 36 Monographs' -- it goes on to list a tempting bunch of titles - and at the bottom a note "The monographs will not be published in the order indicated above. Titles can be supplied by your bookseller as published and you are requested to place your order with them." All right. **Does anyone know if the complete set ever *was* published?** Does anyone know which titles actually did make print? The four volumes I've found are uniquely suited to the period I am most interested in, but I would definitely want to 'collect 'em all', or at least the extant volumes. Another little mystery: On the back of the title page of each of the volumes I have, a cryptic little remark appears: "This edition not to be sold in the United States of America or its Dependencies". Apparently these books are illegal aliens. I bought every last one of them here in the lower 48. It could *possibly* explain the relative rarity of this series in the US. My guess is that for some reason (does anyone know why?) that the sales of that edition were limited to the UK and it's dependencies -- which were still pretty numerous at that time. If anyone out there -- any librarians? Bookstore owners? -- can pass on some information regarding this series I'd be very grateful. Many thanks, Meagn [There'll-be-a-hell-of-an-estate-sale-when-she-goes] Maguire TudorLdy@aol.com ------------------------------ julie adams [30,270]CSuX:a small question Subject: Re: H-COST: A small question From: Julie Adams Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 19:18:46 -0700 - -Poster: Julie Adams At 11:15 AM 8/12/97 +0100, you wrote: >-Poster: Elizabeth Higgins > > Hi Julie, > >At 20:38 11/08/97 -0700, you wrote: >>I've never seen any drawers from that period with a drawstring at the knee, >>but perhaps someone else has. The few originals I own from that era are all >>loose at the bottom, usually with ruffled lace at the bottom. In the >>Harper's Bizarre book by Dover they show loose legged ones and some that >>are gathered slightly into a band (which is also not tight on the leg), >>also with a ruffle of lace at the bottom. > > I had wondered because I had seen some French photographs (which > were apparently pornography of the time) and the women were wearing > drawers which were drawn in just below the knee by a ribbon > which was formed into a fancy bow. I wondered if they were normal or > just done for better sexual allure. > > Many do have ribbons woven in and out of the lace at the bottom. But its normally decorative, not usually used for actual gathering. It would ruin the lace too quickly to put stress on it. Also the legs need to stay loose because without the stretch of elastic, they bind when your leg bends. ------------------------------ david_key@vnet.ibm.com[30,271]CSuX:c15th hats Subject: H-COST: C15th Hats From: david_key@VNET.IBM.COM Date: Tue, 19 Aug 97 08:42:06 BST - -Poster: david_key@VNET.IBM.COM Now I'm in a state of paranoia ... always happens when you make a clear-cut statement from memory ... anyway Cynthia asked ... > That's fascinating! How can one tell that the Arnolfingi wedding > portrait black hat is straw? (I would have supposed it was felted > wool.) Are there clear 'hallmarks' that the average viewer could > use when looking at such paintings to discern what the hat is > really made of? So ... why do I think it is straw ... a VERY close look at the hat in the 1 or 2 detailed illustrations I have of the painting (unfortunately .... and unusually ... the online versions are not of sufficient quality to see) it is possible to see the characteristic weave pattern that comes from straw ... rather than cloth. It came as a surprise to me when I first noticed it ... However I will go & double check this evening to see whether I need to eat humble pie. Thanks for reading ... and questioning ... it helps me keep my theories in some semblance of sanity! Cheers, Dave The White Company (1450-1485) ------------------------------ mrs c s yeldham [101,272]CSuX:various - but much about breeches! Subject: H-COST: Various - but much about breeches! From: Mrs C S Yeldham Date: 19 Aug 97 09:52:00 GMT - -Poster: Mrs C S Yeldham Henk wrote >But remember: everything whitish you see peeping out of >necklines or sleeves is supposedly part of the 'camise' or 'chemise' or >'hemet, hemede, hemd' etc. (except for breast-clothes of late 15th-17th c >women). Not sure what you mean by 'breast-clothes' - is this what I know as partlett? A separate piece of cloth which would be black or white, often white, worn over or under the top layer of clothing which covered up to the neck to protect the skin? >During the 15th c, but maybe even in the late 14th c for the more well to >do people, the neck came to be gathered with a split in front and a cord >through a tunnel to tie it together. This is what I am not at all sure about - assuming Henk is talking about a drawstring neckline. I'm looking at the late 15th and 16th century in England and Northern Europe, and I haven't seen any (might be there, but I haven't seen them). All the ones I've seen in this period are plain hemmed necklines for men and women until the early 16th century. Then they seem to be sewn to a neckband (or, looking at Durer's self-portrait, gathered behind, but still not drawstring). >Nearer 1500 a narrow standing band had grown from this tunnel and was sewn on the gathered neckline, The neckband turns up in 1520s in England, not much earlier, but I haven't seen the evidence to say it grows from a drawstring tunnel. >smockwork was done on the band. I've seen blackwork, goldwork and white work (V&A has a blue-worked shirt) on the neckband and along seams, or on body of shirt (geometric, often counted stitch monochrome work). We may be disagreeing over semantics here, but I assume 'smockwork' to mean decorative work on top of smocking or gathering and that I haven't seen in this period. >But even in the 15th and 17th c the simple medieval >camise was still in use with simple people, as Brueghel proves. Only >sometimes you see a little split in front, so the collar was not as wide as >during the 6th-15th c. Absolutely, although friends of mine studying the 17th century (England again) say they haven't seen drawstrings in that period either. >On this list people have written about the question if women wore some sort >of breeches. Personally I think they did most times and in most places, but >there were probably times and places when or where they did not or could >not. Well, I've said before, I don't, and from what I've learnt about later women's underwear, *closed leg* underpants took a long time to come in even when women were wearing them. Other proof are the breeches worn by 16th c Italian (Venetian?) courtisans >in which they shamelessly exposed themselves. Would this be just titilating >or did they don male clothes to shock the punters? Having just visited an exhibition on Venetian Arts and Crafts from 1300 to 1800, which included an extant pair of these breeches in a heavy weight linen cloth, embroidered all over in geometric stitch with 'I want the heart' in Italian as a motif, certainly the exhibitors thought these were 'transgressive' garments worn to show the pseudo-male role and education of the courtesans - they were supposedly much better educated and had more freedom than the 'decent' women of Venice. There is other evidence of breeches - some Spanish evidence from the 1490s Fran Grimble has quoted several times (involving black silk velvet, which sounds horrific in a Spanish summer!). There is also a pair of breeches from 1603 on Queen Elizabeth I's effigy in Westminster Abbey I've mentioned before. They are made of fustian (unnapped) and Janet Arnold thinks they were riding breeches. As someone who doesn't think they were worn normally, although possibly on specific occasions or by specific women, this doesn't seem like a lot of evidence to me! On the diamonds - there are lots of pictures of the late 16th century showing black stones, often in rings, usually with gold mounts and I had understood these were table cut diamonds on a black backing (would have the advantage of making the hand look whiter). On the question of book territories, I understand this still applies. Publishers buy the rights to publish in certain defined areas and it is not uncommon in the UK to read about a publisher buying the US rights to publish a book already published over here, just as a film-maker may buy the rights to make a film of a book. You are probably OK if you bought it second hand - - assuming someone else bought the book in the UK and took it to the States as private property. Hope this helps Caroline ------------------------------ seamstrix@juno.com[23,273]CSuX:various - but much about breeches! Subject: Re: H-COST: Various - but much about breeches! From: seamstrix@juno.com Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 07:24:50 -0700 - -Poster: seamstrix@juno.com Hello All, On a personal, very anecdotal level, I don't think that Elizabethan women wore breeches as a matter of habit. As you may have gleaned from other notes, I spend alot of time in full court gowns and I have found it is a real bear to go to the bathroom when wearing undergarments. You have a very hard time reaching up under the skirts to get at the waistband, you must bunch all your skirts up and hold them in one arm while trying to get the garment down with the other. I have this much trouble with elastic, I can only imagine the struggle to manipulate hooks or buttons or lacing. And did I mention that you really can't bend at the waist due to the corset? I put up with it for other reasons(see previous note) but I doubt the average Elizabethan woman dealt with the temperature conditions I find myself in. Karen ------------------------------ karren schaeffer [27,274]CSuX:how i got started Subject: H-COST: How I got started From: Karren Schaeffer Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 07:13:07 -0700 - -Poster: Karren Schaeffer Hi Gina, It has been so much fun listening to how everyone got "hooked" on costuming. Mine was dance lessons, drill team and a little gymnastics. My mother worked part time by the time I was in junior high and high school. So all those nifty required costumes I needed were whipped up with various quantities of tears on Mom's straight stitch Singer with all the modern attachments. I remember a Carmen Miranda type affair with yards and yards of red and yellow floral print ruffles on the inside of a wrap around skirt. But mine was the only skirt in the group that moved right when it was kicked. Thats when I learned that the inside was often more important than the outside. When I built a cowardly lion costume on a long john base and the openings opened themselves in rehearsal, I learned that the details (like stitching unused openings closed) are everything. Too few of our young people learn the instinctive satifaction of creating something from nothing with only your two hands and a limp pile of fabric, string, and trim. Especially without a pattern and instructions. This is a great idea! Karren K ------------------------------ roxann barber [15,275]CSuX:please help me! Subject: Re: H-COST: Please help me! From: Roxann Barber Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 09:22:46 -0700 - -Poster: Roxann Barber Christina Cary wrote: > > I have been trying all week long now to get off this list and I can't. > PLEASE HELP MEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I can't help, but I do remember a message from our administrator not too long ago that she would be gone for a while. ------------------------------ elizabeth higgins [36,276]CSuX:various - but much about breeches! Subject: Re: H-COST: Various - but much about breeches! From: Elizabeth Higgins Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 16:59:35 +0100 - -Poster: Elizabeth Higgins Hi Karen, At 07:24 19/08/97 -0700, you wrote: >On a personal, very anecdotal level, I don't think that Elizabethan women >wore breeches as a matter of habit. As you may have gleaned from other >notes, I spend alot of time in full court gowns and I have found it is a >real bear to go to the bathroom when wearing undergarments. You have a >very hard time reaching up under the skirts to get at the waistband, you >must bunch all your skirts up and hold them in one arm while trying to >get the garment down with the other. I have this much trouble with >elastic, I can only imagine the struggle to manipulate hooks or buttons >or lacing. And did I mention that you really can't bend at the waist due >to the corset? I put up with it for other reasons(see previous note) but >I doubt the average Elizabethan woman dealt with the temperature >conditions I find myself in. It's my understanding that up until the 20th century all drawers etc. were made with divided legs and the only join was the draw string at the waist (thus the name drawers). Pre 19th century very few women wore any kind of underwear that could be called drawers or breeches unless for a particular reason. Sanitary conditions were very crude and it was common to find stools (the brown type, not the type you sit on) in odd corners of the houses back in Elizabethan times. In fact the toilet as such is only a couple of centuries old which is why floors used to be spread with straw. Lissa ------------------------------ elizabeth higgins [15,277]CSuX:hemispheric discrimination Subject: Re: H-COST: Hemispheric discrimination From: Elizabeth Higgins Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 16:34:27 +0100 - -Poster: Elizabeth Higgins At 09:25 15/08/97 +1000, you wrote: >I would now like to get deeply offended and accuse you all of being >hemispherists :-) Can we do the same when you are complaining about the heat and we're freezing to death? Love Lissa ------------------------------ ccary@tiara.engr.sgi.com (christina cary)[17,278]CSuX:in royal fashion (ordering) Subject: H-COST: H-Cost: In Royal Fashion (ordering) From: ccary@tiara.engr.sgi.com (Christina Cary) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 09:15:58 -0700 - -Poster: ccary@tiara.engr.sgi.com (Christina Cary) - --PART-BOUNDARY=.19708190915.ZM4925.engr.sgi.com Hi Costumers, In case you are interested in ordering this book yourself, here is the information I received from the Museum of London. I'm going to buy it! Christina (PS--The prices he quotes are in pounds sterling, I believe, not US dolla= rs.) - --- Forwarded mail from sadam@museum-london.org.uk sadam@museum-london.org.uk[6,279]CSuX:museum of london membership schemes Subject: RE: Museum of London Membership Schemes From: sadam@museum-london.org.uk Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 12:15:08 +0000 Thank you for your order. The cost of In Royal Fashion is =9C29.95. Posta= ge to USA is an additional =9C6.05 surface or =9C13.00 airmail. We accept Visa or Mastercard, please state card number and expiry date. If you prefer, you can send this information by fax (0171 600 1058). ---------- ccary@sgi.com[27,280]CSuX:museum of london membership schemes inqu Subject: Museum of London Membership Schemes inqu From: ccary@sgi.com Date: 19 August 1997 09:14 Email =3D ccary@sgi.com address =3D 302 Easy Street #54 Mtn. View CA 94043 name =3D Christina Cary postcode =3D 94043 query =3D I would like to buy your book "In Royal Fashion." Can I charge it on my VISA card and have it sent to my USA address? Thank you! submit =3D Submit query ------------------------------- Remote Host: 204.94.209.1 Remote IP: 204.94.209.1 User Agent: Mozilla/3.01SC-SGI (X11; I; IRIX 6.2 IP22) - ---End of forwarded mail from sadam@museum-london.org.uk - -- = - --PART-BOUNDARY=.19708190915.ZM4925.engr.sgi.com-- ------------------------------ asia reva poppers [50,281]CSuX:various - but much about breeches! Subject: Re: H-COST: Various - but much about breeches! From: Asia Reva Poppers Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 12:31:26 -0400 - -Poster: Asia Reva Poppers At 04:59 PM 8/19/97 +0100, Elizabeth Higgins wrote: > > It's my understanding that up until the 20th century all drawers > etc. were made with divided legs and the only join was the draw > string at the waist (thus the name drawers). Pre 19th century > very few women wore any kind of underwear that could be called > drawers or breeches unless for a particular reason. > > Sanitary conditions were very crude and it was common to find stools > (the brown type, not the type you sit on) in odd corners of the houses > back in Elizabethan times. In fact the toilet as such is only a couple > of centuries old which is why floors used to be spread with straw. > > Lissa > > > GAh! Lissa, what is your source for the idea that Elizabethan people regularly pooped in their own houses? I find this impossible to believe, but will eat my words if presented with solid documentation. Sanitation may not have been as spiffy as our version, but please, they had chamber pots! Admittedly, the rushes on the floor cought all other sorts of detritus, but any seriosly odiferous mess (the results of extreme drunkenness or illness, for example) would warrant the changing of those rushes. Given the technology and cleaning products, most people from most centuries would choose to be, if not as clean as we currently prefer, at least clean enough enter a supermarket without undue hassle. I find it very difficult to believe that any human society, at any time, has accepted as normal behavior the befouling of one's own living space. Outside in the street gutter is another matter... ------------------------------ curiouser and curiouser! [33,282]CSuX:anyone interested in naval history? Subject: H-COST: Anyone interested in Naval History? From: Curiouser and curiouser! Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 09:35:50 -0700 (PDT) - -Poster: Curiouser and curiouser! This doesn't have too much to do with historic costuming, but I thought *someone* might be interested in Naval dress from the first world war. My housemate found a photo album from the 'teens in her recently-departed mother's belongings, and has been scanning it in. [She plans to put the whole thing on CD, to preserve the photos permanantly.. if anyone's done this, and has good resource information, let me know..] Anyways, some of the pages are online now [she's adding them in slowly, but the photos are just amazing, and I don't even think the subject matter is that interesting.] http://jabberwock.wonderland.com/~dracon/teaser.html Drop her a line if you like it, I'm sure she'd appreciate knowing her work was enjoyed [and it might inspire her to put some of the jucier 40's pictures up too!] .heather. alice@wonderland.com ------------------------------ End of h-costume-digest V1 #46 ****************************** h-costume-digest-approval@world.std.com (h-costume-digest)[35,283]CSuX:h-costume-digest v1 #47 Subject: h-costume-digest V1 #47 From: h-costume-digest-approval@world.std.com (h-costume-digest) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 23:23:49 -0400 (EDT) h-costume-digest Tuesday, August 19 1997 Volume 01 : Number 047 In this issue: Re: H-COST: Hemispheric discrimination H-COST: RE: Series: Costume of the Western World Re: H-COST: Frock coat patterns H-COST: 5th Century Norwegian Clothing Re: H-COST: Frock coat patterns p.s. Re: H-COST: Various - but much about breeches! Re: H-COST: Frock coat patterns Re: H-COST: What everyone else is doing Re: H-COST: Various - but much about breeches! Re: H-COST: chemise (18C) Re: H-COST: Frock coat patterns H-COST: h-costume-Ditchley portrait Fwd: H-COST: QE's Ditchley portrait fabric Re: H-COST: Frock coat patterns Re: H-COST: Frock coat patterns Re: H-COST: 1940's wedding dress Re: H-COST: Frock coat patterns Re: H-COST: h-costume-Ditchley portrait Re: H-COST: Removing masking tape adhesive H-COST: 1789 and newer Re: H-COST: Various - but much about breeches! RE: H-COST: Hemispheric discrimination Re: H-COST: Hemispheric discrimination Re: H-COST: Hemispheric discrimination H-COST: Duplicates Again Re: H-COST: Frock coat patterns ---------------------------------------------------------------------- sara j. davitt [17,284]CSuX:hemispheric discrimination Subject: Re: H-COST: Hemispheric discrimination From: "Sara J. Davitt" Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 12:07:39 -0500 (CDT) - -Poster: "Sara J. Davitt" > > I would now like to get deeply offended and accuse you all of being > hemispherists :-) I don't think it is a case of hemisphereism... but a case of torturing the other *in turn* for 6 months out of the year... (which 6 months are subjective) Personally, I'd rather be in Austrailia now... Heat is my enemy---anyone know a place in the world where it doesn't go above 80 and never below 50?--I want to live there. Take Care! Sarahj ------------------------------ dunham patricia r [45,285]CSuX:series: costume of the western world Subject: H-COST: RE: Series: Costume of the Western World From: DUNHAM Patricia R Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 10:24:00 -0700 - -Poster: DUNHAM Patricia R according to OCLC: either published in one volume (vol. 3) (with individual authors): Early Tudor / James Laver. -- The last Valois / Andr=E2e Blum. -- Elizabethan and Jacobean / Graham Reynolds. -- The dominance of Spain / Brian Reade . -- The great age of Holland / Frithjof van Thienan. -- Early Bourbon / Andr=E2e Blum. or separately (with time periods) Early Tudor, 1485-1558 The last Valois, 1515-90 Elizabethan and Jacobean, 1558-1625 The dominance of Spain, =DFc 1550-1660 Early Bourbon, 1590-1643 The great age of Holland, 1600-60 These 6 are all that show up. Patricia R. Dunham - Eugene Public - 100 W 13th Ave - 97401 patricia.r.dunham@ci.eugene.or.us - 541-984-8321 http://204.203.17.34/library (EPL) <<<>>> http://members.aol.com/gerekr/medieval.html (home) ---------- | From: Tudorldy@aol.com | To: h-costume-digest@world.std.com | Subject: H-COST: Series: Costume of the Western World | Date: Monday, August 18, 1997 7:00PM | | -Poster: Tudorldy@aol.com | | Costume of the Western World appears to be a series of monographs which were | published in the early 1950s by George G. Harrap & Company, Ltd. Although I | would normally regard costume history works of that vintage with some doubt, | the four volumes I have been able to locate are fairly authoritative and use | contemporary portraiture and representations. ------------------------------ r.l. shep [33,286]CSuX:frock coat patterns Subject: Re: H-COST: Frock coat patterns From: "R.L. Shep" Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 10:34:09 +0100 - -Poster: "R.L. Shep" Agnes Gawne wrote: > > -Poster: Agnes Gawne > > On Fri, 8 Aug 1997, Joseph Keller wrote: > > -Poster: Kidzazou@webtv.net (Joseph Keller) > > > > Hello Everyone, > > I have just read a review that the company that made my 1830's men's > > frock coat pattern puts out patterns of questionable accuracy. I am > > needing to know if anyone can direct me to a pattern source of early to > > mid 19th century men's fashions. I am familiar with Amazon Drygoods but > > am looking for a coat with a flaired skirt. Thanks! > _+_+_+_+_+_ > > I've had pretty much the same question asked of me on the Jane Austen > list. Does anyone know of any good source for Men's costume of the early > 19th century? Either books, patterns or actual costumes for sale? > > Thanks > Agnes > We have a book coming up which be entitled FEDERALIST AND REGENCY lot of fashion quotations and illustrations from contemperory magazines. It will be out by the end of the year. ~!~ R.L. Shep ------------------------------ ben [31,287]CSuX:5th century norwegian clothing Subject: H-COST: 5th Century Norwegian Clothing From: ben Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 18:05:57 +0000 - -Poster: ben Hi folks, Does anyone out there have any information on the clothing remains that were found in the fifth century Norwegian Chieftain's burial at Evebo. I'm looking for as much information as possible - weave of cloth, colours, decoration (braids, embroidery, etc.), what garments was he wearing, did any belts, shoes, jewellery etc survive. Or can anyone give me any references that I could follow up myself. Many thanks, Waes thu hael Ben Levick - ------------------------------------------------- Angelcynn - Anglo-Saxon Living History 400-900AD oft scyld scefing sceathena threatum monegum maegthum meodosetla ofteah egsode eorlas syththan aerest wearth feasceaft funden he thaes frofre gebad weox under wolcnum weorthmyndum thah oththaet him aeghwylc thara ymbsittendra ofer hronrade hyran scolde gomban gyldan. that waes god cyning! ------------------------------ r.l. shep [36,288]CSuX:frock coat patterns p.s. Subject: Re: H-COST: Frock coat patterns p.s. From: "R.L. Shep" Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 10:36:49 +0100 - -Poster: "R.L. Shep" Agnes Gawne wrote: > > -Poster: Agnes Gawne > > On Fri, 8 Aug 1997, Joseph Keller wrote: > > -Poster: Kidzazou@webtv.net (Joseph Keller) > > > > Hello Everyone, > > I have just read a review that the company that made my 1830's men's > > frock coat pattern puts out patterns of questionable accuracy. I am > > needing to know if anyone can direct me to a pattern source of early to > > mid 19th century men's fashions. I am familiar with Amazon Drygoods but > > am looking for a coat with a flaired skirt. Thanks! > _+_+_+_+_+_ > > I've had pretty much the same question asked of me on the Jane Austen > list. Does anyone know of any good source for Men's costume of the early > 19th century? Either books, patterns or actual costumes for sale? > > Thanks > Agnes > to get closer to your date of 1830 we also have a book entitled LATE GEORGIAN COSTUME that has primary source patterns from 1822. Any of these can be obtained from Fred Struthers (not me, I publish but do not sell books). He is at - fsbks@mcn.org ~!~ R.L. Shep ------------------------------ r.l. shep [38,289]CSuX:various - but much about breeches! Subject: Re: H-COST: Various - but much about breeches! From: "R.L. Shep" Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 10:50:37 +0100 - -Poster: "R.L. Shep" Sara J. Davitt wrote: > > -Poster: "Sara J. Davitt" > > > > > Sanitary conditions were very crude and it was common to find stools > > (the brown type, not the type you sit on) in odd corners of the houses > > back in Elizabethan times. In fact the toilet as such is only a couple > > of centuries old which is why floors used to be spread with straw. > > This remeinds me a a few "restrooms' in Provance. these were rooms, with > a slight slant, and a divot, and a door. You went in, did your thing, > than pulled the cord and 'flushed the floor... and hoped that your shoes > did not get wet. More modern versions had a raised foot stand to > balance yourself on... but your feet still got wet. > > I guess these would have worked well for hoop skirts and the like... but > not quite so well for jeans and a t-shirt. > > Taek Cre, > Sarahj In doing my current book I was struck by a statement which was made about Shag breeches for men (we are talking about 1809): quote - Remeber, that if the party must have linings (we always recommend drawers, as they can be occasionally washed,) it should be advisable to have shamie linings; end quote. What struck me about that was the use of the word - occasionally - Makes one wonder about the sense of cleanliness in Regency times. ~!~ R.L. Shep ------------------------------ michelle robertson [72,290]CSuX:frock coat patterns Subject: Re: H-COST: Frock coat patterns From: Michelle Robertson Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 13:53:59 -0400 (EDT) - -Poster: Michelle Robertson I'm new to the list and to the subject, but I'm happy to have a chance to help someone out. If I can provide further information about these books please let me know. There is a new bibliography (published 1996) that would interest you; it's _Cutting for all! The sartorial arts, related crafts, and the commercial paper pattern : a bibliographic reference guide for designers, technicians and historians_ by Kevin L. Seligman. It lists pattern books galore, by historical period (or else publication date, I don't remember) back to the 15th century I think, and includes annotations describing/assessing the content of most of them. An extremely useful work. Many of these books are one-of-a-kind, but the more recent works and the facsimile reproductions are probably widely available. The following is actually mid-19th c., but it's the closest to what I needed: One of the books that appears in the bibliography I found in my library; it's "The handbook of practical cutting on the Centre Point System" by Louis Devere. Originally published in 1860 I think, the 1866 edition was reprinted in 1986. I've spent some time trying to figure out if I think I can imitate the measuring techniques he describes; this is perhaps the oldest extant "scientific" method to take measurements and design a pattern from them. I haven't yet persuaded my husband to put on a coat in the heat of the Southeastern US for me to take the measurements that they say should be taken "over" the coat, so I'm not sure how different my numbers will be from the author's standards. The author uses an "adjustable inch" (my words) measurement; one particular measurement is supposed to be 18 3/4 (or somesuch) and if your man isn't that size you use a slightly longer or shorter "inch" such that it does end up being 18 3/4 inch-type measurements long. There are also many pages about making alterations to the patterns, for short-waisted, tall, stout, and thin bodies, stooping and extra-erect postures, and other unusual shapes and sizes. It also allows for changes in fashion; it gives the various cutting angles for varying skirt fullness on the frock coat, and talks about different styles of collars. Has anyone here experimented with any of these older methods of taking measurements? Any success with them? I believe this book also has some information about recommended fabrics for the various articles of clothing, although "black cloth" doesn't really help me much for the frock coat I'm considering. Would that just be black wool? What kind of weave? Thanks! - - Michelle On Thu, 14 Aug 1997, Agnes Gawne wrote: > -Poster: Agnes Gawne >[prev. post deleted] > > I've had pretty much the same question asked of me on the Jane Austen > list. Does anyone know of any good source for Men's costume of the early > 19th century? Either books, patterns or actual costumes for sale? > > Thanks > Agnes - --------------------------------------------------------- Michelle Martin Robertson robertson@aztec.lib.utk.edu University of Tennessee Libraries (423) 974-6696 ------------------------------ mara riley [29,291]CSuX:what everyone else is doing Subject: Re: H-COST: What everyone else is doing From: Mara Riley Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 14:20:12 -0400 (EDT) - -Poster: Mara Riley Well, I've been working on my Jacobite costume... got the stays done, and and am working on the chemise. (This is ca. 1745, btw.) The directions I have for the chemise aren't that clear as to two points: the ruffle around the neck, and the drawstrings at the elbows. How deep should the ruffle around the neckline be? The directions say 2", but it's not clear if this is 4" doubled over, 2" with a handkerchief roll on one side, or 2" doubled over. I did the ruffle with 4" of muslin, doubled over and sewn to the neckline, but that seems to look rather odd to me, and it bunches up strangely and flops this way and that. Help! Secondly, the drawstrings on the chemise's sleeves should be 2" from the end of the sleeve, but the drawings I'm working from make it seem as though they're threaded through the fabric of the chemise itself. I'm presuming that the drawstring actually goes in a casing on the inside of the sleeves. Does the drawstring come out of the casing on the inside to tie off, or to the outside of the sleeve through a small hole? What are some other ways one can finish off the sleeve of a chemise? Is a cuff with buttons acceptable? Corbie ------------------------------ mara riley [35,292]CSuX:various - but much about breeches! Subject: Re: H-COST: Various - but much about breeches! From: Mara Riley Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 14:48:35 -0400 (EDT) - -Poster: Mara Riley On Tue, 19 Aug 1997, Elizabeth Higgins wrote: > It's my understanding that up until the 20th century all drawers > etc. were made with divided legs and the only join was the draw > string at the waist (thus the name drawers). Pre 19th century > very few women wore any kind of underwear that could be called > drawers or breeches unless for a particular reason. Which corresponds to what I've heard as well. > Sanitary conditions were very crude and it was common to find stools > (the brown type, not the type you sit on) in odd corners of the houses > back in Elizabethan times. In fact the toilet as such is only a couple > of centuries old which is why floors used to be spread with straw. > > Lissa Now THAT I've never heard. Can you provide some documentation? Chamber pots were readily available when one couldn't get to the outhouse. I doubt one would have used the corner of a room when a chamber pot was available! My understanding of rushes on the floor was that they were put down to facilitate cleanliness, not to hide poop. Could have been infants or household pets pooping in the corner, I suppose... Still, could you cite some references? Corbie ------------------------------ deb [26,293]CSuX:chemise (18c) Subject: Re: H-COST: chemise (18C) From: Deb Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 14:01:38 -0500 - -Poster: Deb You're looking for a 1745 chemise. I know about 1775 chemises, but the paintings etc I draw from cover the whole century. using the selvage edge. Don't know how it'll work out. Ruffle isn't mandatory. My current chemises have the drawstring at the edge; hence the reason I haven't figured out the ruffle yet. Sleeve drawstrings: yes, frequently they ARE threaded through the sleeve fabric. You work several buttonholes. If you use casings (I tend to) put the casings on the inside and work a buttonhole where they need to come to the outside to tie. Other sleeve finishes can include a cuff (up to maybe 1" wide, no wider) but NOT a button. Just a slip-on cuff which fits round the forearm - it can stay at the wrist loosely, or slide up to just below the elbow. But it mustn't go up past the elbow. Let's see how badly the other 18C people disagree with me .... Deb ------------------------------ robin berry [14,294]CSuX:frock coat patterns Subject: Re: H-COST: Frock coat patterns From: Robin Berry Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 12:45:42 -0700 - -Poster: Robin Berry A friend's mother was able to use The Cut of Men's Cloths by Nora Waugh to create a useable pattern for a complete set of Regency men's cloths. I've used The Cut of Women's Cloths quite successfully. Robin L. Berry a little bit of a scholar, a little bit of a seamstress, and a whole lot curious ------------------------------ pulliam@acadia.net (deborah pulliam)[26,295]CSuX:h-costume-ditchley portrait Subject: H-COST: h-costume-Ditchley portrait From: pulliam@acadia.net (Deborah Pulliam) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 16:10:22 -0500 - -Poster: pulliam@acadia.net (Deborah Pulliam) << I see pearls and rubies, but the other stones are black! My husband diddled (technical term) around with the colors, and he's convinced it's not just a case of a colored stone photographed darker. >> I've seen the portrait, and they're diamonds. << I found a very good reproduction of the painting online, at http://dept.english.upenn.edu/~jsaeger/english-30/materials/introduction/eli zabeth_1-g2.jpeg.>> Keep in mind, you're still looking at a reproduction, no matter how much you can zoom in. It must have been scanned in at some point, and what you're looking at may well have come from a print, rather than the original painting. If it was a halftoned print, then it's made up of tiny dots of color that are grouped to fool the eye into seeing a specific color. As much as we rely on them, that kind of print (also applies to postcards) was never meant to be examined as closely as we want to. deborah ------------------------------ mzscahlett@aol.com[42,296]CSuX:qe s ditchley portrait fabric Subject: Fwd: H-COST: QE's Ditchley portrait fabric From: MzScahlett@aol.com Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 16:21:58 -0400 (EDT) - -Poster: MzScahlett@aol.com Somehow managed to send this only privately, sorry! Angela - --------------------- Forwarded message: From: mjschues@students.wisc.edu (Melanie Schuessler) To: MzScahlett@aol.com >Melanie, it's been a few years, but I've seen raised brocade in metallics >very similar to what you are describing. It might have been an import. Have >you tried a luxury fabric store similar to Britex in SF? Or you could get a >tool and pull the loops yourself from a suitably loose brocade (you might buy >a piece of several kinds to try your hand at raising the design and see what >you get). > >I've seen what you are describing, but like I said, it's been a few years, so >I can go back and get a name of the fabric. I'm pretty sure it was lumped in >with modern brocades. I just remember the furry little chenille looking >pile. > >I guess that's not very helpful. > >Angela You should probably send this to the list, because I can't remember who the original seeker was. It sounds helpful in that there's been a "sighting," so the lady in question can continue inquiries rather than giving up hope. As Han says in Return of the Jedi, short help's better than no help at all! Melanie ------------------------------ r.l. shep [84,297]CSuX:frock coat patterns Subject: Re: H-COST: Frock coat patterns From: "R.L. Shep" Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 14:17:13 +0100 - -Poster: "R.L. Shep" Michelle Robertson wrote: > > -Poster: Michelle Robertson > > I'm new to the list and to the subject, but I'm happy to have a chance to > help someone out. If I can provide further information about these books > please let me know. > > There is a new bibliography (published 1996) that would interest you; > it's _Cutting for all! The sartorial arts, related crafts, and the > commercial paper pattern : a bibliographic reference guide for designers, > technicians and historians_ by Kevin L. Seligman. It lists pattern books > galore, by historical period (or else publication date, I don't remember) > back to the 15th century I think, and includes annotations > describing/assessing the content of most of them. An extremely useful > work. Many of these books are one-of-a-kind, but the more recent works > and the facsimile reproductions are probably widely available. > > The following is actually mid-19th c., but it's the closest to what I > needed: > > One of the books that appears in the bibliography I found in my library; > it's "The handbook of practical cutting on the Centre Point System" by > Louis Devere. Originally published in 1860 I think, the 1866 edition was > reprinted in 1986. I've spent some time trying to figure out if I think I > can imitate the measuring techniques he describes; this is perhaps the > oldest extant "scientific" method to take measurements and design a > pattern from them. I haven't yet persuaded my husband to put on a coat in > the heat of the Southeastern US for me to take the measurements that they > say should be taken "over" the coat, so I'm not sure how different my > numbers will be from the author's standards. > > The author uses an "adjustable inch" (my words) measurement; one > particular measurement is supposed to be 18 3/4 (or somesuch) and if your > man isn't that size you use a slightly longer or shorter "inch" such that > it does end up being 18 3/4 inch-type measurements long. There are also > many pages about making alterations to the patterns, for short-waisted, > tall, stout, and thin bodies, stooping and extra-erect postures, and other > unusual shapes and sizes. It also allows for changes in fashion; it gives > the various cutting angles for varying skirt fullness on the frock coat, > and talks about different styles of collars. > > Has anyone here experimented with any of these older methods of taking > measurements? Any success with them? > > I believe this book also has some information about recommended fabrics > for the various articles of clothing, although "black cloth" doesn't > really help me much for the frock coat I'm considering. Would that just > be black wool? What kind of weave? > > Thanks! > > - Michelle > > On Thu, 14 Aug 1997, Agnes Gawne wrote: > > > -Poster: Agnes Gawne > >[prev. post deleted] > > > > I've had pretty much the same question asked of me on the Jane Austen > > list. Does anyone know of any good source for Men's costume of the early > > 19th century? Either books, patterns or actual costumes for sale? > > > > Thanks > > Agnes > > --------------------------------------------------------- > Michelle Martin Robertson robertson@aztec.lib.utk.edu > University of Tennessee Libraries (423) 974-6696 > this is also a book that we publish (the reprint that is) but if you are going to go forward it might be better to go to THE COMPLETE GUIDE TO PRACTICAL CUTTING - 1853 by Edward Minister. Another of our reprints. further informaion is available from Fred Struthers at: fsbks@mcn.org ~!~ R.L. Shep ------------------------------ mara riley [20,298]CSuX:frock coat patterns Subject: Re: H-COST: Frock coat patterns From: Mara Riley Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 17:53:58 -0400 (EDT) - -Poster: Mara Riley On Tue, 19 Aug 1997, Robin Berry wrote: > A friend's mother was able to use The Cut of Men's Cloths by Nora Waugh to > create a useable pattern for a complete set of Regency men's cloths. I've > used The Cut of Women's Cloths quite successfully. > > Robin L. Berry > a little bit of a scholar, a little bit of a seamstress, and a whole lot > curious I'm going to shortly embark on trying to create patterns for my hubby's clothes from Waugh's books. Fortunately, they do give a pattern for men's shirts! Now if only Waugh had given plans for that darn chemise... Corbie ------------------------------ roxann barber [25,299]CSuX:1940 s wedding dress Subject: Re: H-COST: 1940's wedding dress From: Roxann Barber Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 16:02:03 -0700 - -Poster: Roxann Barber cinnamon@xtdl.com wrote: > > Have had a request from a friend at work for help finding a 1940's > style pattern for a wedding dress. The wedding is in August of 1998, but > the bride is anxious to find something to work with. Does anyone know any > good sources for that time period? Past Patterns 1940's PhotoCopies 1944 Brides Dress F5853 PO Box 2446 Richmond IN USA 47374 (765)962-3333 fax (765)962-3773 This is a copy of an actual 1944 pattern and comes in one size only. You would need to adjust for your size. ------------------------------ roxann barber [25,300]CSuX:frock coat patterns Subject: Re: H-COST: Frock coat patterns From: Roxann Barber Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 15:57:04 -0700 - -Poster: Roxann Barber Michelle Robertson wrote: I haven't yet persuaded my husband to put on a coat in > the heat of the Southeastern US for me to take the measurements that they > say should be taken "over" the coat, so I'm not sure how different my > numbers will be from the author's standards. Try over vest and shirt of the period, it should be close enough. > > I believe this book also has some information about recommended fabrics > for the various articles of clothing, although "black cloth" doesn't > really help me much for the frock coat I'm considering. Would that just > be black wool? What kind of weave? > Yes to the wool, cloth is another term meaning wool. Roxy Barber ------------------------------ su carter [53,301]CSuX:h-costume-ditchley portrait Subject: Re: H-COST: h-costume-Ditchley portrait From: "Su Carter" Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 18:12:58 -0400 - -Poster: "Su Carter" - -------------snip------------ << I see pearls and rubies, but the other stones are black! My husband diddled (technical term) around with the colors, and he's convinced it's not just a case of a colored stone photographed darker. >> I've seen the portrait, and they're diamonds. << I found a very good reproduction of the painting online, at http://dept.english.upenn.edu/~jsaeger/english-30/materials/introducti on/eli zabeth_1-g2.jpeg.>> Keep in mind, you're still looking at a reproduction, no matter how much you can zoom in. It must have been scanned in at some point, and what you're looking at may well have come from a print, rather than the original painting. If it was a halftoned print, then it's made up of tiny dots of - --------------snip------------------- Also remember that any painting is just that - a painting, not a photograph. On top of that, it's been subjected to dirt, light, chemical changes and conservator intervention for a long time so even the original is only what it currently looks like and it started life as the product of the skill, eye and interpretation of the artist, not to mention the intervention of the sitter, payer, social and artistic attitudes of the time, etc. Speaking of which, has anyone given any thought to the costume historians of the future? Photographs have been pretty dependable documents til lately. Now we can correct and change the image. I wonder what they'll say about the 1990s in the 22nd century? Just a little food for thought - now I think I'll go study some more photos of paintings . . . Su _ Su Carter Williamsburg, VA, USA scarter@widomaker.com ------------------------------ karren schaeffer [12,302]CSuX:removing masking tape adhesive Subject: Re: H-COST: Removing masking tape adhesive From: Karren Schaeffer Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 13:11:46 -0700 - -Poster: Karren Schaeffer I have never tried it for masking tape goo, but ZOUT has gotten all kinds of stuff out of silk for me. Just pat the stuff on the offending part and wash in cold water, with no other soap. With the alcohol solution proposed earlier, be sure to test, as some dyes are not fast to alcohol. I learned this with a peach silk blouse and vodka. Good Luck, Karren ------------------------------ cynthia virtue [25,303]CSuX:1789 and newer Subject: H-COST: 1789 and newer From: Cynthia Virtue Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 15:29:31 -0700 (PDT) - -Poster: Cynthia Virtue Hi H-Costume, I ran across an article in a [US] government magazine today which some of you may find interesting. Here are excerpts: The National Archives and Records Administration (NARA) has begun capturing digital images of its collection to post on the WWW. Ultimately, NARA wants to post more than 100,000 of its most popular and historically significant items -- some dating back to 1789 -- on its web site at http://www.nara.gov. The collection will include manuscripts, photographs, recordings, maps and drawings. The article is accompanied by a photograph of Presiden Lincoln and his son taken by Matthew Brady. I took a quick look at the site, and it seems most of the pictures are yet-to-come. But they do have some interesting panoramas of folks from the early teens. Cynthia ------------------------------ seamstrix@juno.com[22,304]CSuX:various - but much about breeches! Subject: Re: H-COST: Various - but much about breeches! From: seamstrix@juno.com Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 17:40:23 -0700 - -Poster: seamstrix@juno.com Hi Guys! According to "The Family, Sex, and Marriage in England 1500-1800" by Lawrence Stone, period toileting was rather on the anarchistic side well thru the 18th century. He indicates that 'conveniences' were almost non-existant well into the 1600's and that " When in 1667, Mrs. Pepys was seized with diarrhoea in the theatre, she had no option but to go off to a corner of Lincoln's Inn walks, where she 'did her business' ". And that Samuel Pepys one day suddenly opened the door of his dining-room to find the wife of his patron,the Countess of Sandwich, 'doing something on the pot'. Pepys also had a privy which drained into a vat in his cellar which was periodically emptied by the 'night-soil men' by carrying buckets thru his kitchen.Yuck! Although these are after the Elizabethan era, I don't think toileting had regressed. Karen ------------------------------ sara j. davitt(smtp:ophelia@ren.dias.net)[24,305]CSuX: hemispheric discrimination Subject: Re: H-COST: Hemispheric discrimination From: Sara J. Davitt[SMTP:ophelia@ren.dias.net] Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 16:39:57 -0700 - -Poster: Broneske It's called Santa Barbara, California - ---------- - -Poster: "Sara J. Davitt" > > I would now like to get deeply offended and accuse you all of being > hemispherists :-) I don't think it is a case of hemisphereism... but a case of torturing the other *in turn* for 6 months out of the year... (which 6 months are subjective) Personally, I'd rather be in Austrailia now... Heat is my enemy---anyone know a place in the world where it doesn't go above 80 and never below 50?--I want to live there. Take Care! Sarahj ------------------------------ annetteallen@juno.com (annette m allen)[44,306]CSuX:hemispheric discrimination Subject: Re: H-COST: Hemispheric discrimination From: annetteallen@juno.com (Annette M Allen) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 17:22:14 -0700 - -Poster: annetteallen@juno.com (Annette M Allen) And a few miles south, its called San BuenaVentura (or Ventura). But I must admit we have been having our own little "heat wave" recently. Got up to 85 degrees farenheit! - -Annette On Tue, 19 Aug 1997 16:39:57 -0700 Broneske writes: >-Poster: Broneske > >It's called Santa Barbara, California > >---------- >From: Sara J. Davitt[SMTP:ophelia@ren.dias.net] >Sent: Tuesday, August 19, 1997 5:07 AM >To: Meaghan Waters >Cc: Deb; Costume List >Subject: Re: H-COST: Hemispheric discrimination > >-Poster: "Sara J. Davitt" > >> >> I would now like to get deeply offended and accuse you all of being >> hemispherists :-) > >I don't think it is a case of hemisphereism... but a case of torturing > >the other *in turn* for 6 months out of the year... (which 6 months >are >subjective) Personally, I'd rather be in Austrailia now... Heat is my > >enemy---anyone know a place in the world where it doesn't go above 80 >and >never below 50?--I want to live there. > >Take Care! >Sarahj > > > ------------------------------ joseph & christine [46,307]CSuX:hemispheric discrimination Subject: Re: H-COST: Hemispheric discrimination From: "Joseph & Christine" Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 21:06:23 -0400 - -Poster: "Joseph & Christine" I'll second that, having lived in Port Hueneme (slightly south of SB) for two years. If you decide to move there, bring lots of money. Then go forth and earn more - you'll need it all, and then some. Joseph Ruckman - ---------- > From: Broneske > To: Meaghan Waters > Cc: Deb ; Costume List > Subject: RE: H-COST: Hemispheric discrimination > Date: Tuesday, August 19, 1997 7:39 PM > > -Poster: Broneske > > It's called Santa Barbara, California > > ---------- > From: Sara J. Davitt[SMTP:ophelia@ren.dias.net] > Sent: Tuesday, August 19, 1997 5:07 AM > To: Meaghan Waters > Cc: Deb; Costume List > Subject: Re: H-COST: Hemispheric discrimination > > -Poster: "Sara J. Davitt" > > > > > I would now like to get deeply offended and accuse you all of being > > hemispherists :-) > > I don't think it is a case of hemisphereism... but a case of torturing > the other *in turn* for 6 months out of the year... (which 6 months are > subjective) Personally, I'd rather be in Austrailia now... Heat is my > enemy---anyone know a place in the world where it doesn't go above 80 and > never below 50?--I want to live there. > > Take Care! > Sarahj > > ------------------------------ karren schaeffer [11,308]CSuX:duplicates again Subject: H-COST: Duplicates Again From: Karren Schaeffer Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 07:22:59 -0700 - -Poster: Karren Schaeffer Well, this morning, Tuesday, I just received the Thursday postings for the 4th time. Is this happening to others, or should I call my server and scream? Karren ------------------------------ morelletc2@aol.com[20,309]CSuX:frock coat patterns Subject: Re: H-COST: Frock coat patterns From: MorellEtc2@aol.com Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 23:23:28 -0400 (EDT) - -Poster: MorellEtc2@aol.com In the heat of the summer, particularly in the South, white linen frock coats were worn for informal and country wear. If memory serves me correctly, 20 odd years back while working in the collections of the Ohio Historical Society, I came across two such coats. They were of a medium weight linen, unlined (except for the sleeves and body fronts) with the inside seams bound in cotton tape. They had the standard one breast pocket and two pockets in the pleats of the skirts. I believe one was single and one was double breasted. One may have also been a tail coat. Mike Morell Morell Etc. ------------------------------ End of h-costume-digest V1 #47 ****************************** h-costume-digest-approval@world.std.com (h-costume-digest)[31,310]CSuX:h-costume-digest v1 #48 Subject: h-costume-digest V1 #48 From: h-costume-digest-approval@world.std.com (h-costume-digest) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 13:46:06 -0400 (EDT) h-costume-digest Wednesday, August 20 1997 Volume 01 : Number 048 In this issue: H-COST: Back in the Saddle Re: Fwd: H-COST: QE's Ditchley portrait H-COST: RPFN Re: H-COST: Hist-Cost: In Royal Fashion (book) Re: H-COST: What everyone else is doing Re: H-COST: Various - but much about breeches! H-COST: Looking for Rev War costume help H-COST: Breeches RE: H-COST: American Broadcloth Re: H-COST: Cap wires (and the Yorktown unburied ) Re: H-COST: Caps and Cap wires Re: H-COST: Various necklines and breeches Re: H-COST: c15th Hats Re: H-COST: RPFN H-COST: 1740s Chemise Questions H-COST: RE--OT--Hemispherism RE: H-COST: Breeches H-COST: RE: American Broadcloth H-COST: Re: 19th c. "Drawers" & an underhoop petticoat question Re: H-COST: C15th Hats H-COST: Italian & French Costuming (1100-1399) H-COST: Hemispherism ---------------------------------------------------------------------- penny e. ladnier [30,311]CSuX:back in the saddle Subject: H-COST: Back in the Saddle From: "Penny E. Ladnier" Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 00:06:10 -0400 (EDT) - -Poster: "Penny E. Ladnier" I am glad to be back on the list! My family's move is over, and I am happy to report that closing on a house is as much fun as being eight months pregnant! But the outcome was worth it. I did not had much time to work on the booklet (directory) for the list during my absence because closing on the house consumed me. Sally Queen can vouch for this. But I am back in the saddle, again, and very excited to get back to work on it. Later...Penny Penny E. Dunlap Ladnier, s0peladn@erols.com Historic Costume Research Web Page http://www.geocities.com/FashionAvenue/1899 member: Costume Society of America American Fashion Council Virginia Commonwealth University Alumni (finally!) ------------------------------ margo anderson [27,312]CSuX:qe s ditchley portrait Subject: Re: Fwd: H-COST: QE's Ditchley portrait From: Margo Anderson Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 00:44:38 -0700 - -Poster: Margo Anderson Thanks, everyone for clearing up the mystery of the black diamonds for me. I think the theory that they are table cut diamonds backed with black is more likely than that they were actual black diamonds, which I understand are so fabulously rare that even Queen Elizabeth probably didn't have 45 matched ones the size of her thumbnail. Yes, it's true that when we look at a portrait we have to consider many factors other than reality. In the case of the Ditchley portrait, the feet show at the front of the farthingale, when they would of course have been at its center; however the artist had another purpose. She is standing on a map of England, and her feet are placed on Oxfordshire, the location of Ditchley, her visit to which the portrait commemorates. I'm finding this even more true in my struggles to sculpt a head for the doll. The artist was painting a very vain and powerful woman of a Certain Age. In his struggles to make her recognizable yet still flatter her, he gave her the gaunt bone strcture of an old woman, but left out all the wrinkles. It's strange looking in two dimensions, and it's even stranger in three! Margo Anderson ------------------------------ roxann barber [7,313]CSuX:rpfn Subject: H-COST: RPFN From: Roxann Barber Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 07:01:23 -0700 - -Poster: Roxann Barber what does RPFN stand for? ------------------------------ raxwolf [27,314]CSuX:hist-cost: in royal fashion (book) Subject: Re: H-COST: Hist-Cost: In Royal Fashion (book) From: raxwolf Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 21:05:14 - -Poster: raxwolf At 02:57 PM 8/18/97 -0700, Christina Cary wrote: >I was in the bookstore looking at the English magazine "Majesty" when I saw >that they have an article about an exhibit currently running at the Museum of >London. It is called "In Royal Fashion" and apparently features clothing worn >by Queen Victoria and Princess Charlotte. I only scanned it because I did not >have time to read the whole thing. There is an exhibit catalog, which the >magazine is offering free as giveaways to its UK readers. > >I asked at the front desk of the bookstore if they could order this book for me >from the UK. Not surprisingly they were ill equipped to answer my request so >I'm not sure if I'll be able to get it from them or not. www.amazon.com doesn't >list it. Try http://www.bibliofind.com or http://www.abebooks.com. I've had extraordinary luck with both sites. They locate both in- and out-of-print books. Bibliofind will even direct you to two other sources (one American, one UK) if it can't find your request. ------------------------------ karren schaeffer [14,315]CSuX:what everyone else is doing Subject: Re: H-COST: What everyone else is doing From: Karren Schaeffer Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 18:52:02 -0700 - -Poster: Karren Schaeffer Regarding that darned ruffle. Is the neckline cut large enough to make a self-ruffle? With a rolled edge or doubled over 2 1/2" to the inside, then put the tunnel for the drawstring just at the seamline. This would make the ruffle bias on the curves and it might gather more attractively. If it is an added ruffle, your solution still might be bias cut strips. Just a thought, Karren ------------------------------ sara j. davitt [22,316]CSuX:various - but much about breeches! Subject: Re: H-COST: Various - but much about breeches! From: "Sara J. Davitt" Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 12:15:26 -0500 (CDT) - -Poster: "Sara J. Davitt" > > Sanitary conditions were very crude and it was common to find stools > (the brown type, not the type you sit on) in odd corners of the houses > back in Elizabethan times. In fact the toilet as such is only a couple > of centuries old which is why floors used to be spread with straw. This remeinds me a a few "restrooms' in Provance. these were rooms, with a slight slant, and a divot, and a door. You went in, did your thing, than pulled the cord and 'flushed the floor... and hoped that your shoes did not get wet. More modern versions had a raised foot stand to balance yourself on... but your feet still got wet. I guess these would have worked well for hoop skirts and the like... but not quite so well for jeans and a t-shirt. Taek Cre, Sarahj ------------------------------ joan m jurancich [56,317]CSuX:looking for rev war costume help Subject: H-COST: Looking for Rev War costume help From: Joan M Jurancich Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 19:57:04 -0700 - -Poster: Joan M Jurancich Dear Rev. War reenactors/costumers: I had the following "conversation" with a good friend who is a fellow RPFN actor. In his real-life job he has now come up with a costuming challenge. If any of you can be of help with Joel's quest, please email to him directly. Thanks, Joan Jurancich joanj@quiknet.com >At 01:01 PM 8/12/97 -0700, joel connors (jdconnors@genmagic.com) wrote: >Greetings all, > >The joys of my new job rise to the fore. For a Product Demonstration we need >to dress our VP up to resemble George Washington (No laughing). > >I have been tasked with tracking down a costume to outfit him. > >Anyone out there have any info on, firms, costumers, resources etc, in the >Reveloutionary War era? > >Best, >Joel Connors > >At 04:34 PM 8/18/97 -0700, you wrote: >Joel, > >Would you like me to post this query to the H-COSTUME list (historic >costume)? If you do, other questions come up, i.e., what size is this >person, when is the outfit needed, for how long, and where in the country >will it be needed? > >Joan > >From: jdconnors@genmagic.com (joel connors) >Subject: Re: OT: Looking for Rev War costume help > >Joan that would be very nice. > >To answer the general questions as best as may. > >Size: About my size, Six plus, 200 ish pounds, long limbed. >When: October 28 to November 1st. >Where: We want to see it before we use it here in Sunnyvale, CA. The event >however is in Florida. > >Best, >Joel ------------------------------ dtjacobson@aol.com[35,318]CSuX:breeches Subject: H-COST: Breeches From: DTJacobson@aol.com Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 09:57:39 -0400 (EDT) - -Poster: DTJacobson@aol.com In H-Costume Digest #46 Lissa wrote: <> I beg your pardon? The garderobe system was introduced into English houses during the Middle Ages. This system uses a series of shafts dropping into pits, drains, or moats. Unfortunately, these systems lacked the necessary sluicing mechanism. In the 16th C. people began to favor use of the close-stool, a box containing a receptacle (i.e., a chamberpot) which a servant could remove and empty at a convenient distance from the house. If one's house did not contain either a garderobe system or a close-stool, one had a type of privy out back. Breeches/drawers: At the risk of seeming somewhat a stick-in-the-mud, but remembering several very nasty flame wars erupting over the question of drawers, I merely remind all that a lady does not discuss what is under her clothes. In other words, wear 'em if you need 'em, and just don't make it public. 8-) Dawn (who is taking a break from weaving trim bands for her 13th C. kirtle) DTJacobson@aol.com ------------------------------ morphis@niuhep.physics.niu.edu[16,319]CSuX:american broadcloth Subject: RE: H-COST: American Broadcloth From: morphis@niuhep.physics.niu.edu Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 09:12:58 CST6CDT5,M4.1.0,M10.5.0 - -Poster: morphis@niuhep.physics.niu.edu - -Poster: Joan M Jurancich >While surfing the net last night, I came across a home page ( >http://sensei.com/users/amerbroad/ ) for a company called American >Broadcloth, owned by Dave Winer & Bob Gurney (P.O. Box 5784, Marlboro, MA Close but no cigar :) http://www.xensei.com/users/amerbroad/ ------------------------------ va-53rd@juno.com (fiftythird virginia)[81,320]CSuX:cap wires (and the yorktown unburied ) Subject: Re: H-COST: Cap wires (and the Yorktown unburied ) From: va-53rd@juno.com (fiftythird virginia) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 15:29:23 -0500 - -Poster: va-53rd@juno.com (fiftythird virginia) On Mon, 18 Aug 1997 15:21:54 -0400 Laurie Kittle writes: >-Poster: Laurie Kittle >Apparently they found (years ago) the skull of an old woman >that they referred to as "Granny." Apparently Granny had >an odd piece of wire wrapped around her head. It went over her >ears and rested low on her the back of her head. From the diagrams, it >looks to be just at the hairline.. Apparently, none of the archeologists >could figure it out. The piece of wire turned out to be a cap securing >device. I haven't seen the article mentioned here, but it sounds as if the wire has been re-evaluated since _Martin's Hundred_ was published. At that time (1979-1982 editions ) it was interpreted as a hair roll support rather than a cap. The individual was killed in 1622 and the style of hair-dressing was dated circa 1590-1615. I don't know if the description was included in the article, so I'll quote from the site publication: "a narrow, iron band extended from a point above the left ear, down around the nape of the neck, up over the right ear, and finally down to a blob of pewter or lead close to the heel of the right mandible... the right end was lying flat against the skull, the left end...was projecting out from the head at a seemingly crazy angle. " Noel Hume further describes the band as a "flat, spring-like piece of metal". He then suggests "Granny's iron-cored hair roll had originally framed the crown of her head from ear to ear, and the only way that it could have remained in its correct position in front of the right ear, while being bent back away from the left, was by force." Following this is an explination of how this could have been a scalping attempt fouled by the hair roll, and backs it up with forensic evidence of dying from blood-loss and exposure. The original interpretation made no mention of Dutch origins and no mention of this possibly as a cap wire. As one who who has centered on evidence of clothing in the archaeological record, this new interpretation facinates me. The length of the wire seems critical here for the interpretation. The graphics in the book show hair rolls that would require a wire length much longer than one would expect for a cap, but the length is never given in the book. The x-ray of the skull looks like it is close to the skull, and I would think a hair roll wire such as those depicted would lie farther from the skull. To me, a cap makes a lot more sense, especially since the raid was early morning in a fairly isolated colony. Anyway, thanks for mentioning this. Anyone know how to get a copy of the Colonial Williamsburg Magazine now that I'm no longer in the 'Burg? Also: >For RevWar folks... After Yorktown, a private in the British army >wrote "All over the place and wherever you looked, ...corpses...lying >about that had not been buried; the larger part of these were "Mohren." >(Without German skills, I assume that Mohren means black.) I just read a similar account a few days ago in a Continental's diary at Yorktown, and he commented that a great many bodies of black people were lying about unburied too- but explained it as deaths from small pox which Cornwallis had supposedly deliberatly exposed refugee slaves to. The idea was to spread the disease to the rebel territory. People were afraid to bury them as getting too close to diseased bodies was dangerous. (Not to imply that black soldiers weren't common in the American Army. The British in Virginia had quite a large number fighting for them too, especially early in the war). Bryan va-53rd@juno.com ------------------------------ henk t jong [48,321]CSuX:caps and cap wires Subject: Re: H-COST: Caps and Cap wires From: "Henk 't Jong" Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 18:11:08 +0200 - -Poster: "Henk 't Jong" Henk & Pauline 't Jong tScapreel Medieval Advisors Dordrecht, Netherlands Hi List, Laurie wrote: > Apparently they found (years ago) the skull of an old woman > that they referred to as "Granny." Apparently Granny had > an odd piece of wire wrapped around her head. It went over her > ears and rested low on her the back of her head. From the diagrams, it looks > to be just at the hairline. Apparently, none of the archeologists > could figure it out. The piece of wire turned out to be a cap securing device. > > Of course, this leads to some costume questions?? The article that > provoked this discovery was Dutch. Were these cap securers only > used in Holland? Did it only exist in the 17th c. or did it survive into > the 18th? And, most importantly, did it give you a headache?? > In our country they were called 'oorijzer', which means 'eariron'. Some were indeed made of iron, others of copper, brass or even silver. Some had gold bits attached to them. They were used to keep the little under-cap in place, over which went the larger veiltype headcloth. It dates, supposedly, from the later part of the 15th c and was used until fairly recently (now mainly for tourist-reasons) in different forms in several types of folkdress. It is supposedly descended from the piece of metal that kept the little 'cornus' of the late 14th and early 15th c in their place over the rolled up plaits of well-to-do women. If they gave you a headache? I wouldn't know; I never wore them and don't know of anybody that did. But having been used for nearly 6 centuries should be an indication... Bye, Henk ------------------------------ henk t jong [192,322]CSuX:various necklines and breeches Subject: Re: H-COST: Various necklines and breeches From: "Henk 't Jong" Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 17:51:26 +0200 - -Poster: "Henk 't Jong" Henk & Pauline 't Jong tScapreel Medieval Advisors Dordrecht, Netherlands Hello everybody, Caroline wrote: > Not sure what you mean by 'breast-clothes' - is this what I know as > partlett? A separate piece of cloth which would be black or white, often > white, worn over or under the top layer of clothing which covered up to the > neck to protect the skin? I have no idea what it's called in medieval England, but would 'neckerchief' be what we both mean? Over here we had several types, starting in the second half of the 15th c. They were all a kind of neck and breast-protector or a guardian against indecent exposure of the decollete. > > >During the 15th c, but maybe even in the late 14th c for the more well to > >do people, the neck came to be gathered with a split in front and a cord > >through a tunnel to tie it together. > > This is what I am not at all sure about - assuming Henk is talking about a > drawstring neckline. I'm looking at the late 15th and 16th century in > England and Northern Europe, and I haven't seen any (might be there, but I > haven't seen them). All the ones I've seen in this period are plain hemmed > necklines for men and women until the early 16th century. Then they seem to > be sewn to a neckband (or, looking at Durer's self-portrait, gathered > behind, but still not drawstring). > Hieronymus Bosch (working ca 1475-1517) has painted in his works undershirts closed at the neck, gathered with drawstring and without and with a split middle-front with and without closing means. Albrecht Duerer (working 1486-1528) has several types of undershirts for men and women: gathered with very wide neckopenings with embroidery and smockwork, with and without ruffs (ruffs mostly after ca 1510) (mainly young men and women, hangmen\executioners and soldiers), smooth with a middle split (mainly farmers and simple burghers), gathered with a middle split and an unseen fastener (Hook and eye? farmers and burghers), standing bands with ruffs or without, hook and eye (Virgin and child 1512, Lucas van Leyden 1521, Melanchton 1526, Patinir 1521), long middle splits with two or more fasteners, probably of the hook and eye type (mainly women), standing band with ruff and no split to be seen in frond, but fairly narrow, so at the side or back? (Bernhard von Resten 1521). Lucas van Leyden had a lot of the same types of collar and necklines. Holbein has several portraits done from the late teens to the fourties of the 16th c with drawstring (that was the word I was searching for!) shirts in front or on one side (f.i. Georg Gisze 1532)(with or without standing bands, both plain and embroidered or smocked. The standing bands often have two drawstrings. Even king Henry VII (1537) has a splendid standing band with a slight ruff, both gold embroidered, as has prince Edward (1539?), but on a much smaller scale. Henry has a very plain one in 1540 but also with two strings. About that time blackwork was used a lot to embroider collarbands, as several portraits prove. Cranach, Burgkmair, Funk, Furtenagel, Gruenewald, Herrant, Huber, Faber von Kreuznach, Amberger, Maler; all German or Swiss painters working in the years 1500-1540 had all these different types of necklines in the shirts of their portraits. The wide neck seems to have gone out of fashion after 1520, and ruffs came on, at first very small, after 1510. Drawstrings and hooks and eyes seem to have existed during the whole period, even little buttons were used. But not only Germans used these types of collars, people like the early Titian, Botticelli, Giorgione, Lotto, Lippi, del Sarto (who has painted a side closure in a standing band once), Rafael, etc have drawn and painted the same types of collar. It's a pity the 15th c portraits have all these high jacketcollars, but if you look carefully, there's sometimes a narrow white stripe around the neckline, which must be the undershirt. This cannot be a wide neckopening, it has to be a gathered type of opening. The same goes for late 14th c nobles dress, like houppelandes (the one with the not too high standing collars, that is): narrow white lines. It could be lining, but most linings were coloured, and sometimes the lining can be seen either in sleeves or in skirts and seen as a differnet colour from white. Dave, no doubt, could add to this. But perhaps he has other experiences as well, as the 15th c is more his field than mine. I have seen so many 14th c picture-sources during the last 7 years that I don't know how to point you to all the artists (who for a large part are unknown anyway), but a little research in the right direction will bear me out. For the record: this type of neckline will only be worn by rich people, court circles, some servants, etc. Common people had until the 17th c wide open shirtopenings with sometimes a split in front. > >Nearer 1500 a narrow standing band had grown from this tunnel and was sewn > on the gathered neckline, > > The neckband turns up in 1520s in England, not much earlier, but I haven't > seen the evidence to say it grows from a drawstring tunnel. Neither have I, I must confess. I may be wrong here. It looked logical at the time I wrote it, but I'm not so sure now. > > >smockwork was done on the band. > I've seen blackwork, goldwork and white work (V&A has a blue-worked shirt) > on the neckband and along seams, or on body of shirt (geometric, often > counted stitch monochrome work). We may be disagreeing over semantics here, > but I assume 'smockwork' to mean decorative work on top of smocking or > gathering and that I haven't seen in this period. It is sometimes rather hard to see, but if you have a little ruff coming out of a band with a kind of natural coloured (the same as the material) embroidery on it, doesn't it follow that the band has been gathered in to make the ruff all wavy? I have been puring over my (mainly German) sources with a magnifier, and it certainly looks that way. Sometimes the band is seen to be gathered fairly clearly all in very narrow vertical pleats. > > >But even in the 15th and 17th c the simple medieval > >camise was still in use with simple people, as Brueghel proves. Only > >sometimes you see a little split in front, so the collar was not as wide as > >during the 6th-15th c. > > Absolutely, although friends of mine studying the 17th century (England > again) say they haven't seen drawstrings in that period either. > > >On this list people have written about the question if women wore some sort > >of breeches. Personally I think they did most times and in most places, but > >there were probably times and places when or where they did not or could > >not. > > Well, I've said before, I don't, and from what I've learnt about later > women's underwear, *closed leg* underpants took a long time to come in even > when women were wearing them. > > social comment (lots of it in misericordes!) > > >Other proof are the breeches worn by 16th c Italian (Venetian?) courtisans > >in which they shamelessly exposed themselves. Would this be just titilating > >or did they don male clothes to shock the punters? > > Having just visited an exhibition on Venetian Arts and Crafts from 1300 to > 1800, which included an extant pair of these breeches in a heavy weight > linen cloth, embroidered all over in geometric stitch with 'I want the > heart' in Italian as a motif, certainly the exhibitors thought these were > 'transgressive' garments worn to show the pseudo-male role and education of > the courtesans - they were supposedly much better educated and had more > freedom than the 'decent' women of Venice. Very interesting. > > There is other evidence of breeches - some Spanish evidence from the 1490s > Fran Grimble has quoted several times (involving black silk velvet, which > sounds horrific in a Spanish summer!). There is also a pair of breeches > from 1603 on Queen Elizabeth I's effigy in Westminster Abbey I've mentioned > before. They are made of fustian (unnapped) and Janet Arnold thinks they > were riding breeches. > > As someone who doesn't think they were worn normally, although possibly on > specific occasions or by specific women, this doesn't seem like a lot of > evidence to me! > Nor does it to me. Women on medieval miniatures did not appaer without 'chemise' or else they wore only that or they were completely naked and appeared in a biblical or mythological context. One has to grab at the little one can get though (sorry, for the risque pun!). And, as I said, especially in medieval dress (before 1500) for common burghers and peasants it is very well possible to wear breeches and not be uncomfortale in them when trying to loosen or fasten these (as Queen Elisabeth certainly must have been; serves her right for wearing these rediculous dresses). Bye Henk ------------------------------ henk t jong [46,323]CSuX:c15th hats Subject: Re: H-COST: c15th Hats From: "Henk 't Jong" Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 18:00:19 +0200 - -Poster: "Henk 't Jong" Henk & Pauline 't Jong tScapreel Medieval Advisors Dordrecht, Netherlands Hi List, Dave wrote: > A close > inspection of the hat worn in the Arnolfini Wedding portrait by > Van Eyck shows the 'groom' wearing a large & elaborate black > straw hat ... and he is certainly no peasant! This style of hat > does appear to have had a brief flirtation with fashion in the 1st > half of the c15th in Flanders (if I recall there is a portrtait > of Philip of Burgundy wearing a similar hat ... but I need to check). This is a new one for me; but very fascinating. I only have one picture in colour of this painting and have been looking at it through a magnifier, but could not see a straw pattern. I thought I detected a double sewn rim along the brim, but I could be wrong, as this would make it a hat made out of at least two pieces of woven or felted material. I'll wait to find out from somebody who can go look in the National Gallery. > > Also I mentioned 'Copyn' Hats ... many thanks to Henk for putting a > whole new angle on the topic ... it just goes to show. I think I > prefer his explanation to the books ... it makes more sense as the hats > were imported from Flanders ... definitely worth a bit more looking > into. > > >> copyn' hatte ... suggested may be a variant of copul' or from copota > >> a high-crowned hat > >> worn by the controller It occurred to me that Cop(p)yn in middledutch is a form of Cop, which in it's turn is short for Jacop or Jacob. Could a Copyn Hat be a wide brimmed pelgrim's hat? The ones they used to wear to Compostela and put the shells and other stuff on? Bye, Henk ------------------------------ morghana@aol.com[13,324]CSuX:rpfn Subject: Re: H-COST: RPFN From: Morghana@aol.com Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 12:17:37 -0400 (EDT) - -Poster: Morghana@aol.com In a message dated 97-08-20 09:16:17 EDT, rbarber@net-link.net (Roxann Barber) writes: << what does RPFN stand for? >> Renaissance Pleasure Faire North (in California) ~Morghana ------------------------------ dtjacobson@aol.com[51,325]CSuX:1740s chemise questions Subject: H-COST: 1740s Chemise Questions From: DTJacobson@aol.com Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 12:46:26 -0400 (EDT) - -Poster: DTJacobson@aol.com In H-Costume Digest #47, Corbie wrote: <> I had to look at my own chemise. I can't give you any help on the neck ruffle, as my chemise doesn't have one (the style is slightly later), but the sleeve is finished with a casing approx. 2 inches in from the end of the sleeve. A small eyelet is in the top of the sleeve which allows the drawstring to pass through to the outside. The sleeve was cut so that the end was on the selvedge--we usually overlook the use of selvedges, but remember, on hand-woven fabrics, these are bound edges. The reason your neck ruffle is probably floppy is the fabric it's constructed of. Modern muslin is extremely light--much lighter than many of the fabrics used for shifts, shirts and chemises. Cotton also does not have the same hand as linen of an equal weight--where a linen can be ironed stiff and remain so, cotton quickly goes back to being soft (and limp). For this reason, a lot of experienced historical reenactors use linen for their undergarments. The slight added expense (the very best linen is only $12/yd) is more than compensated by the luxurious feel, the tremendous comfort, and the incredible durability of linen. An adequate alternative to linen is some of the high-quality cottolin (a blend of linen and cotton); some of the blends currently marketed are as much as 80% linen, and have an appearance and hand very similar to pure linen, at a price about 25% less than 100% linen. Dawn Jacobson DTJacobson@aol.com ------------------------------ dtjacobson@aol.com[21,326]CSuX:re--ot--hemispherism Subject: H-COST: RE--OT--Hemispherism From: DTJacobson@aol.com Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 12:46:49 -0400 (EDT) - -Poster: DTJacobson@aol.com In H-Costume Digest #47, Sarah J wrote: <> San Francisco. It's presently about 60 degrees and raining (in August!). The ocean and the world-famous fog moderate the temperatures so that it almost never gets above 80 during the summer, and rarely drops below 50 (daytime temp) during the winter. Dawn Jacobson DTJacobson@aol.com ------------------------------ morphis@niuhep.physics.niu.edu[29,327]CSuX:breeches Subject: RE: H-COST: Breeches From: morphis@niuhep.physics.niu.edu Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 12:12:52 CST6CDT5,M4.1.0,M10.5.0 - -Poster: morphis@niuhep.physics.niu.edu From: MX%"DTJacobson@aol.com" 20-AUG-1997 12:06:58.38 I beg your pardon? The garderobe system was introduced into English houses during the Middle Ages. This system uses a series of shafts dropping into pits, drains, or moats. Oh bless you, hugs and kisses! Could you give me a date on this? I have been looking (well, not very energetically) for something specific about this type of thing for some time. Breeches/drawers: At the risk of seeming somewhat a stick-in-the-mud, but remembering several very nasty flame wars erupting over the question of drawers, I merely remind all that a lady does not discuss what is under her clothes. In other words, wear 'em if you need 'em, and just don't make it public. 8-) Speaking of unspeakables, in another conversation on this topic the problem of menstrual flow came up, which suggests that at least once in a while /something/ was worn. Robert ------------------------------ mary-gayle jany [14,328]CSuX:american broadcloth Subject: H-COST: RE: American Broadcloth From: "Mary-Gayle Jany" Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 08:14:53 -0500 - -Poster: "Mary-Gayle Jany" Joan et al: I'm interested in the home page address you posted for American Broadcloth. I've tried to pull it several times, but each time I'm told it can't be accessed by my server, so if anyone on the list has additional information, I'd appreciate receiving it too. (Also, the word "sensei" in the address means "teacher" in Japanese if I recall correctly. Your quote doesn't sound like an imported goods dealer though. Of course, sensei in the address doesn't have to be related to the goods either.) Thanks in advance. Meg ------------------------------ glenna jo & bill christen [37,329]CSuX:19th c. "drawers" & an underhoop petticoat question Subject: H-COST: Re: 19th c. "Drawers" & an underhoop petticoat question From: Glenna Jo & Bill Christen Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 12:21:10 -0700 - -Poster: Glenna Jo & Bill Christen There has been some discussion of women wearing drawers with "...the only join was the drawstring at the waist (thus the name drawers)." I totally agree with the split crotch aspect of this statement, but I only question the 'drawstring' aspect. Perhaps there are examples of drawstring drawers at other times in the 19th c., but I've never encountered any myself. All the examples I've seen of drawers and petticoats, and other waisted garments have had fixed waistbands with the material gathered or gauged onto the band and usually buttoned closed at the back. Considering the emphasis on the waist from at least the middle third of the century a drawstring would not be the most slimming or comfortable option as many reenactors learn once they discover the accuracy and advantage of wearing corsets. It has always been my understanding that the term 'drawers' refereed to the act of 'drawing' them on over ones legs. Now for my question. There is a small discussion on an American Civil War reenactors list regarding wearing petticoats under hoops. Documentation for such items is scarce to say the least. I'm aware of the Punch(?) drawing of a woman in full dress on one side and with the layers exposed on the other. We also have an English stereo card of a stout woman who has fallen from an omnibus, exposing her hoops and under petticoat. Citing laundry lists and trousseau lists also aren't enough to convince one woman that these were commonly worn. Anyone know of other evidence? Thanks! Glenna Jo (Being picky as well as stubborn :-)) Christen gwjchris@rust.net Visit The Curiosity Shop! http://www.rust.net/~gwjchris/ ------------------------------ ninni m pettersson [32,330]CSuX:c15th hats Subject: Re: H-COST: C15th Hats From: Ninni M Pettersson Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 15:37:04 +0100 - -Poster: Ninni M Pettersson At 08.42 +0100 97-08-19, david_key@VNET.IBM.COM wrote: >-Poster: david_key@VNET.IBM.COM > >Now I'm in a state of paranoia ... always happens when you make a >clear-cut statement from memory ... anyway Cynthia asked ... > >> That's fascinating! How can one tell that the Arnolfingi wedding >> portrait black hat is straw? (I would have supposed it was felted >> wool.) Are there clear 'hallmarks' that the average viewer could >> use when looking at such paintings to discern what the hat is >> really made of? > >So ... why do I think it is straw ... a VERY close look at the hat >in the 1 or 2 detailed illustrations I have of the painting >(unfortunately .... and unusually ... the online versions are not >of sufficient quality to see) it is possible to see the >characteristic weave pattern that comes from straw ... rather than >cloth. It came as a surprise to me when I first noticed it ... And so it did to me when I checked it last night! The weave pattern is certainly very visible in the largish (43 x 31 cm / c. 17 x 12 inches) print I own. Why have I never noticed this before!? Must be pre-conceived notions. (And of course not being very interested in male headgear :-) /Ninni M Pettersson ------------------------------ colleen mcdonald hinrichs [18,331]CSuX:italian & french costuming (1100-1399) Subject: H-COST: Italian & French Costuming (1100-1399) From: Colleen McDonald Hinrichs Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 10:39:28 -0700 - -Poster: Colleen McDonald Hinrichs Hello! I am seeking sources for French & Italian women's clothing from 1100 to 1399. If any of you out there can recommend any good sources (I have just started this search), I would be most grateful. I am primarily interested in the areas of northwestern Italy and southeastern France but would appreciate any sources. Thank you! Colleen McDonald Hinrichs colleen@mackie.com ------------------------------ uboru@pop.erols.com (dc)[14,332]CSuX:hemispherism Subject: H-COST: Hemispherism From: uboru@pop.erols.com (DC) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 13:53:46 -0400 - -Poster: uboru@pop.erols.com (DC) OK, so I'm really going to be picky, I'd like a place no hotter than 80, no colder than 30 in the winter that has no earthquakes or hurricanes or volcanoes (yes I know I'm dreaming). ------------------------------ End of h-costume-digest V1 #48 ****************************** h-costume-digest-approval@world.std.com (h-costume-digest)[20,333]CSuX:h-costume-digest v1 #49 Subject: h-costume-digest V1 #49 From: h-costume-digest-approval@world.std.com (h-costume-digest) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 16:55:04 -0400 (EDT) h-costume-digest Wednesday, August 20 1997 Volume 01 : Number 049 In this issue: H-COST: 18thC New France H-COST: Shifts Re: H-COST: Various - but much about breeches! Re: H-COST: Re: 19th c. "Drawers" & an underhoop petticoat question Re: H-COST: C15th Hats H-COST: Shifts H-COST: Primary Sources H-COST: Crushed velvet Re: H-COST: Crushed velvet H-COST: Jane Austen List H-COST: Revolutionary War Sources ---------------------------------------------------------------------- carol kocian [30,334]CSuX:18thc new france Subject: H-COST: 18thC New France From: "Carol Kocian" Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 13:44:30 EST - -Poster: "Carol Kocian" I just got this notice and I'm very excited about it. When I saw the French language version a couple of years ago, it looked wonderful. -Carol Kocian - ---------------------------------- The book "Lexique illustre du costume en Nouvelle-france, 1740-1760 " by Suzanne and Andre Gousse is now available in English under the title of: Costume in New France from 1740 to 1760: A Visual Dictionary It can be ordered for $15.00 US per copy (retail price). Shipping costs by regular mail are $5.00 for the first copy and $1.00 for each supplementary copy. Send your inquiries or orders by mail, fax or E mail to: Suzanne Gousse La Fleur de Lyse 1649 Labonte Chambly, Quebec CANADA J3L 5M6 ------------------------------ carol kocian [40,335]CSuX:shifts Subject: H-COST: Shifts From: "Carol Kocian" Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 14:00:54 EST - -Poster: "Carol Kocian" Corbie wrote, > How deep should the ruffle around the neckline be? The directions > say 2".... I agree with 2", one layer, and a handkerchief hem. That seems to be that way it's done on lots of other extant clothing, such as caps and shirts. Deb Baddorf wrote, > Sleeve drawstrings: yes, frequently they ARE threaded through > the sleeve fabric. You work several buttonholes. > Let's see how badly the other 18C people disagree with me .... Well, I *am* curious about drawstings threaded through several buttonholes, especially since you say it's frequent. Can you tell me more about where you've seen this? On extant shifts, I've only seen shorter sleeves (above the elbow) , plain at the end, with just a narrow hem. Keep in mind I've only seen a few shifts! Illustrations of working women generally show the shift sleeves covering the elbow or rolled up. The shorter shift sleeves could be those that would always have a gown work over them (for upper classes) or may belong to a later period (late 18th - early 19thC). My favorite source of shift patterns is _Cut My Cote_. This book describes and gives "pattern drafts" of garments that are very simply cut and conserve fabric. Agnes Dawe also mentioned a list for the Jane Austin society. Could you post information on that, please? -Carol Kocian ------------------------------ henk t jong [39,336]CSuX:various - but much about breeches! Subject: Re: H-COST: Various - but much about breeches! From: "Henk 't Jong" Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 19:27:00 +0200 - -Poster: "Henk 't Jong" Henk & Pauline 't Jong tScapreel Medieval Advisors Dordrecht, Netherlands List, Elizabeth wrote: > Sanitary conditions were very crude and it was common to find stools > (the brown type, not the type you sit on) in odd corners of the houses > back in Elizabethan times. In fact the toilet as such is only a couple > of centuries old which is why floors used to be spread with straw. I don't know what they did in Britain, but overhere people had outside toilets with either deep pits or brick cellars under them, which were regularly emptied, and all people went there to do the necessary. Some even had inside toilets with the same brick cellars under them. In the middle ages it was forbidden to have toilets above standing or streaming water, but in the larger cities (like Amsterdam, which became a boomtown then) from the middle of the 16th c onwards some toilets had to be above these types of water. All others were above a pit. Ask any archaeologist about this. Maybe you should ask the British ones as well! I don't know if they kept this information quiet, but the above mentioned by Elisabeth must have been the exception to the rule overthere as well. And floors were never spread with straw, but with rushes. And since about the second half of the 14th century they started to make mats of this stuff, the easier to keep the floor clean. Straw was used for stables and cattlemarkets. Bye, Henk ------------------------------ frances grimble [40,337]CSuX:19th c. "drawers" & an underhoop petticoat question Subject: Re: H-COST: Re: 19th c. "Drawers" & an underhoop petticoat question From: Frances Grimble Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 11:09:54 -0700 - -Poster: Frances Grimble Glenna Jo & Bill Christen wrote: > > -Poster: Glenna Jo & Bill Christen > > There has been some discussion of women wearing drawers with "...the > only join was the drawstring at the waist (thus the name drawers)." > > I totally agree with the split crotch aspect of this statement, but I > only question the 'drawstring' aspect. Perhaps there are examples of > drawstring drawers at other times in the 19th c., but I've never > encountered any myself. All the examples I've seen of drawers and > petticoats, and other waisted garments have had fixed waistbands with > the material gathered or gauged onto the band and usually buttoned > closed at the back. Considering the emphasis on the waist from at least > the middle third of the century a drawstring would not be the most > slimming or comfortable option as many reenactors learn once they > discover the accuracy and advantage of wearing corsets. Actually, I own lots of original late Victorian and Edwardian drawers with a drawstring either all the way around the waist, or partway at either side of the center back, and which close by tying the strings together. I also own lots of petticoats designed the same way. The drawstring may be a little more bulky, but it allows a lot more flexibility in sizing. I suspect this is particularly important in ready-to-wear (undergarments were some of the earliest garments to be manufactured in quantity, at least as early as the 1840s). However, I have also seen drawstrings in many petticoats and drawers that appear to be homemade. This may be because they also allow for fluctuations in the wearer's weight, or, with petticoats, how many other petticoats that petticoat was worn over. The legs of the split drawers are not actually split all the way up to the drawstring, they are usually closed to a few inches down from it. Fully closed drawers were also worn, and I own some of those. Fran Grimble ------------------------------ cynthia virtue [22,338]CSuX:c15th hats Subject: Re: H-COST: C15th Hats From: Cynthia Virtue Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 09:03:07 -0700 (PDT) - -Poster: Cynthia Virtue Ninni writes in response to David: > >So ... why do I think it is straw ... a VERY close look at the hat > >in the 1 or 2 detailed illustrations I have of the painting > And so it did to me when I checked it last night! The weave pattern is > certainly very visible in the largish (43 x 31 cm / c. 17 x 12 inches) Cool. I will have to find a decent image of the thing. My concentration is in 15th c. hats, but mostly for women. Maybe I should make a list of some of the most interesting paintings, and go 'on pilgrimage' to the real paintings when I'm in Europe next Spring. As a side note, my parents have a reel-to-reel tape player. The black rubber retaining-knobs on the spindles are exactly the shape of this hat; I've always thought of the hat as the 'tape player' hat. Cynthia ------------------------------ carol kocian [27,339]CSuX:shifts Subject: H-COST: Shifts From: "Carol Kocian" Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 14:29:56 EST - -Poster: "Carol Kocian" Dawn Jacobson wrote, > The reason your neck ruffle is probably floppy.... From illustrations I've seen it looks like the shift neckline ruffles *are* soft & floppy. I believe the painter on the cover of Aileen Ribiero's _The Art of Dress_ has a floppy shift ruffle (sorry - - it's not handy!). True, lots of cottons are softer than linen, but there are a few that are tightly spun and woven that are closer. Modern muslin does tend to get soft on the first washing, plus it isn't very white. The idea of a cotton & linen blend is good, too. Sometimes the ruffles on shifts, shirts, and caps are made of a finer, lighter fabric than the rest of the garment. > (the very best linen is only $12/yd) I've seen the really nice stuff for $25 or more per yard. The shirt weight and ruffle weight linens with few or no slubs in them do tend to be fairly expensive. -Carol Kocian ------------------------------ cliff cheetham [19,340]CSuX:primary sources Subject: H-COST: Primary Sources From: Cliff Cheetham Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 19:47:19 +0100 - -Poster: Cliff Cheetham I seem to remember having a discussion along these lines at some point in the past but can I ask again? What would you name as useful primaary sources for research into medieval clothing? I have on my list such gems as the Paston Letters, port records, wills, county records etc. as well as paintings. I'd be pleased to hear what others would suggest. And, Kelvin, in the Netherlands, I've lost your e-mail address. Could you get in touch, please? Many thanks, Sally Ann Chandler The Historical Clothing Company c.cheetham@virgin.net ------------------------------ glenn and shanda grieb [25,341]CSuX:crushed velvet Subject: H-COST: Crushed velvet From: Glenn and Shanda Grieb Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 14:30:21 -0500 - -Poster: Glenn and Shanda Grieb Hi all, I'm in Wisconsin, and have a client who would like a full length cape in crushed velvet. Purple, of course! I been able to find black, but no other colors in crushed velvet. I did find a nice purple in uncrushed velvet though. Does anyone know of a source, either mail order or within driving distance of Milwaukee, to find a good supply (and variety) of velvet, especially crushed (as well as other specialty fabrics ie. bracades, tapestries, etc.)? Also, on the subject of velvet, does anyone out there have any neat tricks they'd like to share about sewing with velvet? I find it absolutely maddening. I have found cotton velvet to be much easier to work with than poly, but it just doesn't look nearly as rich. I would be ever so grateful to hear from you . Shanda ------------------------------ frances grimble [25,342]CSuX:crushed velvet Subject: Re: H-COST: Crushed velvet From: Frances Grimble Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 12:39:39 -0700 - -Poster: Frances Grimble Glenn and Shanda Grieb wrote: > > -Poster: Glenn and Shanda Grieb > > Hi all, > > I'm in Wisconsin, and have a client who would like a full length cape in > crushed velvet. Purple, of course! I been able to find black, but no > other colors in crushed velvet. I did find a nice purple in uncrushed > velvet though. You could probably turn this into crushed velvet by judicious ironing without a needle board (test effects on samples first!). I have Edwardian instructions for creating "panne velvet" this way from velvet that has become too crushed with wear to restore. As for sewing tips, basting all the seams closely makes it a lot easier. Hope this helps, Fran Grimble ------------------------------ agnes gawne [30,343]CSuX:jane austen list Subject: H-COST: Jane Austen List From: Agnes Gawne Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 12:53:28 -0700 (PDT) - -Poster: Agnes Gawne On Wed, 20 Aug 1997, Carol Kocian wrote: > -Poster: "Carol Kocian" > > > Agnes Dawe also mentioned a list for the Jane Austin society. > Could you post information on that, please? > Send this message to : LISTSERV@VM1.MCGILL.CA SUBSCRIBE AUSTEN-L [your real full name here] _+_+_+_+_+_+_ List AUSTEN-L is not open for automatic subscription. Your request will be forwarded to the list owner: Michael Walsh who will check some list of previous troublemakers on the Austen list then add your name if you pass muster. - - ------------------------------ deborah glosek [668,344]CSuX:revolutionary war sources Subject: H-COST: Revolutionary War Sources From: Deborah Glosek Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 16:52:29 -0400 - -Poster: Deborah Glosek h-costume-digest wrote: > > h-costume-digest Wednesday, August 20 1997 Volume 01 : Number 048 > > In this issue: > H-COST: Back in the Saddle > Re: Fwd: H-COST: QE's Ditchley portrait > H-COST: RPFN > Re: H-COST: Hist-Cost: In Royal Fashion (book) > Re: H-COST: What everyone else is doing > Re: H-COST: Various - but much about breeches! > H-COST: Looking for Rev War costume help > H-COST: Breeches > RE: H-COST: American Broadcloth > Re: H-COST: Cap wires (and the Yorktown unburied ) > Re: H-COST: Caps and Cap wires > Re: H-COST: Various necklines and breeches > Re: H-COST: c15th Hats > Re: H-COST: RPFN > H-COST: 1740s Chemise Questions > H-COST: RE--OT--Hemispherism > RE: H-COST: Breeches > H-COST: RE: American Broadcloth > H-COST: Re: 19th c. "Drawers" & an underhoop petticoat question > Re: H-COST: C15th Hats > H-COST: Italian & French Costuming (1100-1399) > H-COST: Hemispherism > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 00:06:10 -0400 (EDT) > From: "Penny E. Ladnier" > Subject: H-COST: Back in the Saddle > > - -Poster: "Penny E. Ladnier" > > I am glad to be back on the list! My family's move is over, and I am happy > to report that closing on a house is as much fun as being eight months > pregnant! But the outcome was worth it. > > I did not had much time to work on the booklet (directory) for the list > during my absence because closing on the house consumed me. Sally Queen can > vouch for this. But I am back in the saddle, again, and very excited to get > back to work on it. > > Later...Penny > > Penny E. Dunlap Ladnier, s0peladn@erols.com > Historic Costume Research Web Page http://www.geocities.com/FashionAvenue/1899 > member: > Costume Society of America > American Fashion Council > Virginia Commonwealth University Alumni (finally!) > Owner: Creative Outlets > > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 00:44:38 -0700 > From: Margo Anderson > Subject: Re: Fwd: H-COST: QE's Ditchley portrait > > - -Poster: Margo Anderson > > Thanks, everyone for clearing up the mystery of the black diamonds for me. > I think the theory that they are table cut diamonds backed with black is > more likely than that they were actual black diamonds, which I understand > are so fabulously rare that even Queen Elizabeth probably didn't have 45 > matched ones the size of her thumbnail. > > Yes, it's true that when we look at a portrait we have to consider many > factors other than reality. In the case of the Ditchley portrait, the feet > show at the front of the farthingale, when they would of course have been at > its center; however the artist had another purpose. She is standing on a > map of England, and her feet are placed on Oxfordshire, the location of > Ditchley, her visit to which the portrait commemorates. > > I'm finding this even more true in my struggles to sculpt a head for the > doll. The artist was painting a very vain and powerful woman of a Certain > Age. In his struggles to make her recognizable yet still flatter her, he > gave her the gaunt bone strcture of an old woman, but left out all the > wrinkles. It's strange looking in two dimensions, and it's even stranger in > three! > > Margo Anderson > > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 07:01:23 -0700 > From: Roxann Barber > Subject: H-COST: RPFN > > - -Poster: Roxann Barber > > what does RPFN stand for? > > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 21:05:14 > From: raxwolf > Subject: Re: H-COST: Hist-Cost: In Royal Fashion (book) > > - -Poster: raxwolf > > At 02:57 PM 8/18/97 -0700, Christina Cary wrote: > > >I was in the bookstore looking at the English magazine "Majesty" when I saw > >that they have an article about an exhibit currently running at the Museum of > >London. It is called "In Royal Fashion" and apparently features clothing worn > >by Queen Victoria and Princess Charlotte. I only scanned it because I did not > >have time to read the whole thing. There is an exhibit catalog, which the > >magazine is offering free as giveaways to its UK readers. > > > >I asked at the front desk of the bookstore if they could order this book > for me > >from the UK. Not surprisingly they were ill equipped to answer my request so > >I'm not sure if I'll be able to get it from them or not. www.amazon.com > doesn't > >list it. > > Try http://www.bibliofind.com or http://www.abebooks.com. I've had > extraordinary luck with both sites. They locate both in- and out-of-print > books. Bibliofind will even direct you to two other sources (one American, > one UK) if it can't find your request. > > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 18:52:02 -0700 > From: Karren Schaeffer > Subject: Re: H-COST: What everyone else is doing > > - -Poster: Karren Schaeffer > > Regarding that darned ruffle. Is the neckline cut large enough to make > a self-ruffle? With a rolled edge or doubled over 2 1/2" to the inside, > then put the tunnel for the drawstring just at the seamline. This would > make the ruffle bias on the curves and it might gather more > attractively. If it is an added ruffle, your solution still might be > bias cut strips. Just a thought, > > Karren > > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 12:15:26 -0500 (CDT) > From: "Sara J. Davitt" > Subject: Re: H-COST: Various - but much about breeches! > > - -Poster: "Sara J. Davitt" > > > > > Sanitary conditions were very crude and it was common to find stools > > (the brown type, not the type you sit on) in odd corners of the houses > > back in Elizabethan times. In fact the toilet as such is only a couple > > of centuries old which is why floors used to be spread with straw. > > This remeinds me a a few "restrooms' in Provance. these were rooms, with > a slight slant, and a divot, and a door. You went in, did your thing, > than pulled the cord and 'flushed the floor... and hoped that your shoes > did not get wet. More modern versions had a raised foot stand to > balance yourself on... but your feet still got wet. > > I guess these would have worked well for hoop skirts and the like... but > not quite so well for jeans and a t-shirt. > > Taek Cre, > Sarahj > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 19:57:04 -0700 > From: Joan M Jurancich > Subject: H-COST: Looking for Rev War costume help > > - -Poster: Joan M Jurancich > > Dear Rev. War reenactors/costumers: > > I had the following "conversation" with a good friend who is a fellow RPFN > actor. In his real-life job he has now come up with a costuming challenge. > If any of you can be of help with Joel's quest, please email to him directly. > > Thanks, > > Joan Jurancich > joanj@quiknet.com > > >At 01:01 PM 8/12/97 -0700, joel connors (jdconnors@genmagic.com) wrote: > >Greetings all, > > > >The joys of my new job rise to the fore. For a Product Demonstration we need > >to dress our VP up to resemble George Washington (No laughing). > > > >I have been tasked with tracking down a costume to outfit him. > > > >Anyone out there have any info on, firms, costumers, resources etc, in the > >Reveloutionary War era? > > > >Best, > >Joel Connors > > > >At 04:34 PM 8/18/97 -0700, you wrote: > >Joel, > > > >Would you like me to post this query to the H-COSTUME list (historic > >costume)? If you do, other questions come up, i.e., what size is this > >person, when is the outfit needed, for how long, and where in the country > >will it be needed? > > > >Joan > > > >From: jdconnors@genmagic.com (joel connors) > >Subject: Re: OT: Looking for Rev War costume help > > > >Joan that would be very nice. > > > >To answer the general questions as best as may. > > > >Size: About my size, Six plus, 200 ish pounds, long limbed. > >When: October 28 to November 1st. > >Where: We want to see it before we use it here in Sunnyvale, CA. The event > >however is in Florida. > > > >Best, > >Joel > > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 09:57:39 -0400 (EDT) > From: DTJacobson@aol.com > Subject: H-COST: Breeches > > - -Poster: DTJacobson@aol.com > > In H-Costume Digest #46 Lissa wrote: > > < (the brown type, not the type you sit on) in odd corners of the houses > back in Elizabethan times. In fact the toilet as such is only a couple > of centuries old which is why floors used to be spread with straw.>> > > I beg your pardon? > > The garderobe system was introduced into English houses during the Middle > Ages. This system uses a series of shafts dropping into pits, drains, or > moats. Unfortunately, these systems lacked the necessary sluicing mechanism. > In the 16th C. people began to favor use of the close-stool, a box containing > a receptacle (i.e., a chamberpot) which a servant could remove and empty at a > convenient distance from the house. If one's house did not contain either a > garderobe system or a close-stool, one had a type of privy out back. > > Breeches/drawers: > > At the risk of seeming somewhat a stick-in-the-mud, but remembering several > very nasty flame wars erupting over the question of drawers, I merely remind > all that a lady does not discuss what is under her clothes. In other words, > wear 'em if you need 'em, and just don't make it public. 8-) > > Dawn (who is taking a break from weaving trim bands for her 13th C. kirtle) > DTJacobson@aol.com > > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 09:12:58 CST6CDT5,M4.1.0,M10.5.0 > From: morphis@niuhep.physics.niu.edu > Subject: RE: H-COST: American Broadcloth > > - -Poster: morphis@niuhep.physics.niu.edu > > - -Poster: Joan M Jurancich > > >While surfing the net last night, I came across a home page ( > >http://sensei.com/users/amerbroad/ ) for a company called American > >Broadcloth, owned by Dave Winer & Bob Gurney (P.O. Box 5784, Marlboro, MA > > Close but no cigar :) > > http://www.xensei.com/users/amerbroad/ > > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 15:29:23 -0500 > From: va-53rd@juno.com (fiftythird virginia) > Subject: Re: H-COST: Cap wires (and the Yorktown unburied ) > > - -Poster: va-53rd@juno.com (fiftythird virginia) > > On Mon, 18 Aug 1997 15:21:54 -0400 Laurie Kittle > writes: > >-Poster: Laurie Kittle > > >Apparently they found (years ago) the skull of an old woman > >that they referred to as "Granny." Apparently Granny had > >an odd piece of wire wrapped around her head. It went over her > >ears and rested low on her the back of her head. From the diagrams, it > >looks to be just at the hairline.. Apparently, none of the archeologists > >could figure it out. The piece of wire turned out to be a cap securing > >device. > > I haven't seen the article mentioned here, but it sounds as if the > wire has been re-evaluated since _Martin's Hundred_ was published. > At that time (1979-1982 editions ) it was interpreted > as a hair roll support rather than a cap. The individual was killed in > 1622 and the style of hair-dressing was dated circa 1590-1615. > > I don't know if the description was included in the article, so I'll > quote from the site publication: > > "a narrow, iron band extended from a point above the left ear, down > around the nape of the neck, up over the right ear, and finally down to > a blob of pewter or lead close to the heel of the right mandible... > the right end was lying flat against the skull, the left end...was > projecting > out from the head at a seemingly crazy angle. " Noel Hume further > describes the band as a "flat, spring-like piece of metal". > > He then suggests "Granny's iron-cored hair roll had originally framed the > > crown of her head from ear to ear, and the only way that it could have > remained in its correct position in front of the right ear, while being > bent back > away from the left, was by force." Following this is an explination of > how > this could have been a scalping attempt fouled by the hair roll, and > backs it up > with forensic evidence of dying from blood-loss and exposure. > > The original interpretation made no mention of Dutch origins and no > mention of this possibly as a cap wire. As one who who has centered > on evidence of clothing in the archaeological record, this new > interpretation facinates me. The length of the wire seems critical > here for the interpretation. The graphics in the book show hair rolls > that would require a wire length much longer than one would expect for > a cap, but the length is never given in the book. The x-ray of the > skull looks like it is close to the skull, and I would think a hair roll > wire such as those depicted would lie farther from the skull. To me, a > cap makes a lot more sense, especially since the raid was early morning > in a fairly isolated colony. > > Anyway, thanks for mentioning this. Anyone know how to get a copy of > the Colonial Williamsburg Magazine now that I'm no longer in the 'Burg? > > Also: > >For RevWar folks... After Yorktown, a private in the British army > >wrote "All over the place and wherever you looked, ...corpses...lying > >about that had not been buried; the larger part of these were "Mohren." > >(Without German skills, I assume that Mohren means black.) > > I just read a similar account a few days ago in a Continental's diary at > Yorktown, and he commented that a great many bodies of black people were > lying about unburied too- but explained it as deaths from small pox which > Cornwallis > had supposedly deliberatly exposed refugee slaves to. The idea was to > spread > the disease to the rebel territory. People were afraid to bury them as > getting > too close to diseased bodies was dangerous. (Not to imply that black > soldiers > weren't common in the American Army. The British in Virginia had quite > a large number fighting for them too, especially early in the war). > > Bryan > va-53rd@juno.com > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 18:11:08 +0200 > From: "Henk 't Jong" > Subject: Re: H-COST: Caps and Cap wires > > - -Poster: "Henk 't Jong" > > Henk & Pauline 't Jong > tScapreel > Medieval Advisors > Dordrecht, Netherlands > > Hi List, > > Laurie wrote: > > Apparently they found (years ago) the skull of an old woman > > that they referred to as "Granny." Apparently Granny had > > an odd piece of wire wrapped around her head. It went over her > > ears and rested low on her the back of her head. From the diagrams, it > looks > > to be just at the hairline. Apparently, none of the archeologists > > could figure it out. The piece of wire turned out to be a cap securing > device. > > > > Of course, this leads to some costume questions?? The article that > > provoked this discovery was Dutch. Were these cap securers only > > used in Holland? Did it only exist in the 17th c. or did it survive into > > the 18th? And, most importantly, did it give you a headache?? > > > In our country they were called 'oorijzer', which means 'eariron'. Some > were indeed made of iron, others of copper, brass or even silver. Some had > gold bits attached to them. They were used to keep the little under-cap in > place, over which went the larger veiltype headcloth. It dates, supposedly, > from the later part of the 15th c and was used until fairly recently (now > mainly for tourist-reasons) in different forms in several types of > folkdress. It is supposedly descended from the piece of metal that kept the > little 'cornus' of the late 14th and early 15th c in their place over the > rolled up plaits of well-to-do women. > > If they gave you a headache? I wouldn't know; I never wore them and don't > know of anybody that did. But having been used for nearly 6 centuries > should be an indication... > > Bye, > > Henk > > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 17:51:26 +0200 > From: "Henk 't Jong" > Subject: Re: H-COST: Various necklines and breeches > > - -Poster: "Henk 't Jong" > > Henk & Pauline 't Jong > tScapreel > Medieval Advisors > Dordrecht, Netherlands > > Hello everybody, > > Caroline wrote: > > Not sure what you mean by 'breast-clothes' - is this what I know as > > partlett? A separate piece of cloth which would be black or white, often > > white, worn over or under the top layer of clothing which covered up to > the > > neck to protect the skin? > > I have no idea what it's called in medieval England, but would > 'neckerchief' be what we both mean? Over here we had several types, > starting in the second half of the 15th c. They were all a kind of neck and > breast-protector or a guardian against indecent exposure of the decollete. > > > > >During the 15th c, but maybe even in the late 14th c for the more well > to > > >do people, the neck came to be gathered with a split in front and a cord > > >through a tunnel to tie it together. > > > > This is what I am not at all sure about - assuming Henk is talking about > a > > drawstring neckline. I'm looking at the late 15th and 16th century in > > England and Northern Europe, and I haven't seen any (might be there, but > I > > haven't seen them). All the ones I've seen in this period are plain > hemmed > > necklines for men and women until the early 16th century. Then they seem > to > > be sewn to a neckband (or, looking at Durer's self-portrait, gathered > > behind, but still not drawstring). > > > Hieronymus Bosch (working ca 1475-1517) has painted in his works > undershirts closed at the neck, gathered with drawstring and without and > with a split middle-front with and without closing means. > Albrecht Duerer (working 1486-1528) has several types of undershirts for > men and women: gathered with very wide neckopenings with embroidery and > smockwork, with and without ruffs (ruffs mostly after ca 1510) (mainly > young men and women, hangmen\executioners and soldiers), smooth with a > middle split > (mainly farmers and simple burghers), gathered with a middle split and an > unseen fastener (Hook and eye? farmers and burghers), standing bands with > ruffs or without, hook and eye (Virgin and child 1512, Lucas van Leyden > 1521, Melanchton 1526, Patinir 1521), long middle splits with two or more > fasteners, probably of the hook and eye type (mainly women), standing band > with ruff and no split to be seen in frond, but fairly narrow, so at the > side or back? (Bernhard von Resten 1521). Lucas van Leyden had a lot of the > same types of collar and necklines. > > Holbein has several portraits done from the late teens to the fourties of > the 16th c with drawstring (that was the word I was searching for!) shirts > in front or on one side (f.i. Georg Gisze 1532)(with or without standing > bands, both plain and embroidered or smocked. The standing bands often have > two drawstrings. Even king Henry VII (1537) has a splendid standing band > with a slight ruff, both gold embroidered, as has prince Edward (1539?), > but on a much smaller scale. Henry has a very plain one in 1540 but also > with two strings. About that time blackwork was used a lot to embroider > collarbands, as several portraits prove. > > Cranach, Burgkmair, Funk, Furtenagel, Gruenewald, Herrant, Huber, Faber von > Kreuznach, Amberger, Maler; all German or Swiss painters working in the > years 1500-1540 had all these different types of necklines in the shirts of > their portraits. The wide neck seems to have gone out of fashion after > 1520, and ruffs came on, at first very small, after 1510. Drawstrings and > hooks and eyes seem to have existed during the whole period, even little > buttons were used. But not only Germans used these types of collars, people > like the early Titian, Botticelli, Giorgione, Lotto, Lippi, del Sarto (who > has painted a side closure in a standing band once), Rafael, etc have drawn > and painted the same types of collar. > > It's a pity the 15th c portraits have all these high jacketcollars, but if > you look carefully, there's sometimes a narrow white stripe around the > neckline, which must be the undershirt. This cannot be a wide neckopening, > it has to be a gathered type of opening. The same goes for late 14th c > nobles dress, like houppelandes (the one with the not too high standing > collars, that is): narrow white lines. It could be lining, but most linings > were coloured, and sometimes the lining can be seen either in sleeves or in > skirts and seen as a differnet colour from white. Dave, no doubt, could add > to this. But perhaps he has other experiences as well, as the 15th c is > more his field than mine. > > I have seen so many 14th c picture-sources during the last 7 years that I > don't know how to point you to all the artists (who for a large part are > unknown anyway), but a little research in the right direction will bear me > out. For the record: this type of neckline will only be worn by rich > people, court circles, some servants, etc. Common people had until the 17th > c wide open shirtopenings with sometimes a split in front. > > > >Nearer 1500 a narrow standing band had grown from this tunnel and was > sewn > > on the gathered neckline, > > > > The neckband turns up in 1520s in England, not much earlier, but I > haven't > > seen the evidence to say it grows from a drawstring tunnel. > > Neither have I, I must confess. I may be wrong here. It looked logical at > the time I wrote it, but I'm not so sure now. > > > > >smockwork was done on the band. > > I've seen blackwork, goldwork and white work (V&A has a blue-worked > shirt) > > on the neckband and along seams, or on body of shirt (geometric, often > > counted stitch monochrome work). We may be disagreeing over semantics > here, > > but I assume 'smockwork' to mean decorative work on top of smocking or > > gathering and that I haven't seen in this period. > > It is sometimes rather hard to see, but if you have a little ruff coming > out of a band with a kind of natural coloured (the same as the material) > embroidery on it, doesn't it follow that the band has been gathered in to > make the ruff all wavy? I have been puring over my (mainly German) sources > with a magnifier, and it certainly looks that way. Sometimes the band is > seen to be gathered fairly clearly all in very narrow vertical pleats. > > > > >But even in the 15th and 17th c the simple medieval > > >camise was still in use with simple people, as Brueghel proves. Only > > >sometimes you see a little split in front, so the collar was not as wide > as > > >during the 6th-15th c. > > > > Absolutely, although friends of mine studying the 17th century (England > > again) say they haven't seen drawstrings in that period either. > > > > >On this list people have written about the question if women wore some > sort > > >of breeches. Personally I think they did most times and in most places, > but > > >there were probably times and places when or where they did not or could > > >not. > > > > Well, I've said before, I don't, and from what I've learnt about later > > women's underwear, *closed leg* underpants took a long time to come in > even > > when women were wearing them. > > > > > social comment (lots of it in misericordes!) > > > > >Other proof are the breeches worn by 16th c Italian (Venetian?) > courtisans > > >in which they shamelessly exposed themselves. Would this be just > titilating > > >or did they don male clothes to shock the punters? > > > > Having just visited an exhibition on Venetian Arts and Crafts from 1300 > to > > 1800, which included an extant pair of these breeches in a heavy weight > > linen cloth, embroidered all over in geometric stitch with 'I want the > > heart' in Italian as a motif, certainly the exhibitors thought these were > > 'transgressive' garments worn to show the pseudo-male role and education > of > > the courtesans - they were supposedly much better educated and had more > > freedom than the 'decent' women of Venice. > > Very interesting. > > > > There is other evidence of breeches - some Spanish evidence from the > 1490s > > Fran Grimble has quoted several times (involving black silk velvet, which > > sounds horrific in a Spanish summer!). There is also a pair of breeches > > from 1603 on Queen Elizabeth I's effigy in Westminster Abbey I've > mentioned > > before. They are made of fustian (unnapped) and Janet Arnold thinks they > > were riding breeches. > > > > As someone who doesn't think they were worn normally, although possibly > on > > specific occasions or by specific women, this doesn't seem like a lot of > > evidence to me! > > > Nor does it to me. Women on medieval miniatures did not appaer without > 'chemise' or else they wore only that or they were completely naked and > appeared in a biblical or mythological context. One has to grab at the > little one can get though (sorry, for the risque pun!). And, as I said, > especially in medieval dress (before 1500) for common burghers and peasants > it is very well possible to wear breeches and not be uncomfortale in them > when trying to loosen or fasten these (as Queen Elisabeth certainly must > have been; serves her right for wearing these rediculous dresses). > > Bye > > Henk > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 18:00:19 +0200 > From: "Henk 't Jong" > Subject: Re: H-COST: c15th Hats > > - -Poster: "Henk 't Jong" > > Henk & Pauline 't Jong > tScapreel > Medieval Advisors > Dordrecht, Netherlands > > Hi List, > > Dave wrote: > > A close > > inspection of the hat worn in the Arnolfini Wedding portrait by > > Van Eyck shows the 'groom' wearing a large & elaborate black > > straw hat ... and he is certainly no peasant! This style of hat >Anyone out there have any info on, firms, costumers, resources etc, in the >Reveloutionary War era? > >Best, >Joel Connors We have a new catalog available containing historical sewing patterns from many different designers including some from Revolutionary times. You can obtain a copy by sending $7.00 to: Harper House P.O. Box 39 Williamstown, PA 17098 717-647-7807 717-647-2480---FAX harperh@epix.net Visa/MC/Amex D. Glosek Owner ------------------------------ End of h-costume-digest V1 #49 ****************************** h-costume-digest-approval@world.std.com (h-costume-digest)[38,345]CSuX:h-costume-digest v1 #50 Subject: h-costume-digest V1 #50 From: h-costume-digest-approval@world.std.com (h-costume-digest) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 12:53:35 -0400 (EDT) h-costume-digest Thursday, August 21 1997 Volume 01 : Number 050 In this issue: Re: H-COST: Re: 19th c. "Drawers" & an underhoop petticoat question Re: H-COST: Crushed velvet Re: H-COST: Italian & French Costuming (1100-1399) H-COST: Sewing tricks-- velvet, cartridge pleating Re: H-COST: 1740s Chemise Questions Re: H-COST: Shifts H-COST: ditchley again Re: H-COST: Italian & French Costuming (1100-1399) Re: H-COST: RE--OT--Hemispherism Re: H-COST: RPFN H-COST: RE: frockcoats H-COST: [Fwd: Re: frockcoats] Re: H-COST: Smocking (was: Various necklines and breeches) Re: H-COST: Crushed velvet Re: H-COST: Italian & French Costuming (1100-1399) H-COST:um...er..."facilities" H-COST: getting off list Re: H-COST: Various necklines and breeches Re: H-COST: C15th Hats Re: H-COST: Breeches Re: H-COST: Re: 19th c. "Drawers" & an underhoop petticoat question H-COST: Duplicate postings Re: H-COST: Re: 19th c. "Drawers" & an underhoop petticoat question H-COST: H-COST RPFN costume competition Re: H-COST: 5th Century Norwegian Clothing Re: H-COST: Re: 19th c. "Drawers" & an underhoop petticoat question Re: H-COST: Re: 19th c. "Drawers" & an underhoop petticoat question H-COST: American Broadcloth H-COST: Re: What does RPFN mean? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- roxann barber [11,346]CSuX:19th c. "drawers" & an underhoop petticoat question Subject: Re: H-COST: Re: 19th c. "Drawers" & an underhoop petticoat question From: Roxann Barber Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 14:55:26 -0700 - -Poster: Roxann Barber I've also seen drawstrings in altered undergarments, perhaps the waist became too small? Roxy Barber ------------------------------ roxann barber [18,347]CSuX:crushed velvet Subject: Re: H-COST: Crushed velvet From: Roxann Barber Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 15:06:25 -0700 - -Poster: Roxann Barber Glenn and Shanda Grieb wrote: > Also, on the subject of velvet, does anyone out there have any neat > tricks they'd like to share about sewing with velvet? I agree with Frances, baste to keep it from slipping. And don't press if you don't have to, if you do, use a needle board and don't set the iron down on the fabric. Bet bet is talk them out of velvet ;) Roxy Barber ------------------------------ seamstrix@juno.com[20,348]CSuX:italian & french costuming (1100-1399) Subject: Re: H-COST: Italian & French Costuming (1100-1399) From: seamstrix@juno.com Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 15:58:32 -0700 - -Poster: seamstrix@juno.com Hello Colleen, I have a source for French Medieval costume for you with lots of primary sources, both literary and visual. Dress in Medieval France by Joan Evans Oxford University Press 1952 Unfortunately it is old enough that it does not have an ISBN number or Library of Congress number that I can find. It's a great source, best of luck on your quest! Karen ------------------------------ gail decamp [41,349]CSuX:sewing tricks-- velvet, cartridge pleating Subject: H-COST: Sewing tricks-- velvet, cartridge pleating From: Gail DeCamp Date: Wed, 20 Aug 97 14:28:43 -0000 - -Poster: Gail DeCamp Hi all, >Also, on the subject of velvet, does anyone out there have any neat >tricks they'd like to share about sewing with velvet? I find it >absolutely maddening. I have found cotton velvet to be much easier to >work with than poly, but it just doesn't look nearly as rich. Either (1) pin it every inch or (2) glue it together along the seam allowances, then let it dry, before you sew it. (Thanks to Shelley Monson for the second suggestion.) For cartridge pleating, I discovered that the pleating part went much easier if I: 1) basted a strip of gingham or other plaid fabric to the wrong side of the fabric to use as a guide. (Thanks to Lesley Means for that awesome suggestion!) and 2) Used silk beading thread, instead of buttonhole and carpet thread, to do the actual cartridge pleating. (I got my spool of beading thread, which was slightly thicker and much silkier than buttonhole and carpet thread, at the International Gem and Jewelry Show when it came to San Mateo, CA. I only discovered this because I was out of b&c thread and desperate to find some substitute.) good luck sewing the crushed velvet purple cloak, Gail ------------------------------ mara riley [45,350]CSuX:1740s chemise questions Subject: Re: H-COST: 1740s Chemise Questions From: Mara Riley Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 17:34:02 -0400 (EDT) - -Poster: Mara Riley On Wed, 20 Aug 1997 DTJacobson@aol.com wrote: > I had to look at my own chemise. I can't give you any help on the neck > ruffle, as my chemise doesn't have one (the style is slightly later), but the > sleeve is finished with a casing approx. 2 inches in from the end of the > sleeve. A small eyelet is in the top of the sleeve which allows the > drawstring to pass through to the outside. The sleeve was cut so that the end > was on the selvedge--we usually overlook the use of selvedges, but remember, > on hand-woven fabrics, these are bound edges. Thanks for the clarification! I use selvages all the time and never did understand why they were regarded as something to be cut off and hidden :D > The reason your neck ruffle is probably floppy is the fabric it's constructed > of. Modern muslin is extremely light--much lighter than many of the fabrics > used for shifts, shirts and chemises. Cotton also does not have the same hand > as linen of an equal weight--where a linen can be ironed stiff and remain so, > cotton quickly goes back to being soft (and limp). For this reason, a lot of > experienced historical reenactors use linen for their undergarments. The > slight added expense (the very best linen is only $12/yd) is more than > compensated by the luxurious feel, the tremendous comfort, and the incredible > durability of linen. An adequate alternative to linen is some of the > high-quality cottolin (a blend of linen and cotton); some of the blends > currently marketed are as much as 80% linen, and have an appearance and hand > very similar to pure linen, at a price about 25% less than 100% linen. > > Dawn Jacobson > DTJacobson@aol.com The reason I'm doing this one of muslin is that I don't want to cut into my linen until I'm sure of what I'm doing. So this chemise is the 'first draft' -- I have some very nice white (100%) linen waiting in my cloth pile for when I've sorted out all the problematic aspects of this project. I agree; it's much better than cotton. Cheers, Corbie ------------------------------ mara riley [30,351]CSuX:shifts Subject: Re: H-COST: Shifts From: Mara Riley Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 17:46:06 -0400 (EDT) - -Poster: Mara Riley On Wed, 20 Aug 1997, Carol Kocian wrote: > From illustrations I've seen it looks like the shift neckline > ruffles *are* soft & floppy. I believe the painter on the cover of > Aileen Ribiero's _The Art of Dress_ has a floppy shift ruffle (sorry > - it's not handy!). True, lots of cottons are softer than linen, but > there are a few that are tightly spun and woven that are closer. > Modern muslin does tend to get soft on the first washing, plus it > isn't very white. The idea of a cotton & linen blend is good, too. > -Carol Kocian Well, perhaps I should have been clearer about my problem... Because I used 4 inches of fabric, folded over to make 2", it's floppy but too stiff at the same time, and looks rather awkward. Thanks to everyone for their help on this, by the way... I have a few messages on my e-mail at home that I'll try to reply to tonight! What I think I'll do is take the ruffle off altogether and then re-attach it, with the rolled handkerchief hem at the top edge, so it's only one thickness of fabric. That should make it look a lot better, I hope! Cheers, Corbie ------------------------------ pulliam@acadia.net (deborah pulliam)[17,352]CSuX:ditchley again Subject: H-COST: ditchley again From: pulliam@acadia.net (Deborah Pulliam) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 18:20:47 -0500 - -Poster: pulliam@acadia.net (Deborah Pulliam) << In his struggles to make her recognizable yet still flatter her, he gave her the gaunt bone strcture of an old woman, but left out all the wrinkles. >> May not have been all artistic license--she wore so much white lead and powder on her face, the wrinkles may not have been visible. Also, there is only one portrait extant (a miniature, actually) considered to have been drawn from life, according to Roy Strong. Deborah ------------------------------ kerri canepa [49,353]CSuX:italian & french costuming (1100-1399) Subject: Re: H-COST: Italian & French Costuming (1100-1399) From: Kerri Canepa Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 14:40:51 -0800 (ADT) - -Poster: Kerri Canepa On Wed, 20 Aug 1997, Colleen McDonald Hinrichs wrote: > -Poster: Colleen McDonald Hinrichs > > Hello! > > I am seeking sources for French & Italian women's clothing > from 1100 to 1399. If any of you out there can recommend > any good sources (I have just started this search), I would > be most grateful. I am primarily interested in the areas of > northwestern Italy and southeastern France but would > appreciate any sources. > > Thank you! > > Colleen McDonald Hinrichs > colleen@mackie.com > Colleen, I've been studying the Ilaria del Carretto funerary sculpture recently (d. 1405) - although not in person as the tomb is in Lucca and I'm in Alaska - and been looking for other occurances of that particular flared neck houppelande/cioppa. In other words, I've looked at a fair number of late 14th early 15th c examples. In Italy during the 14th c and into the early 15th c, frescoes were THE popular art form and there are a number of books on Italian frescoes, Italian artists' frescoes, sites with frescoes, etc. There are two written and illustrated works from that time that are available in reproductions or facsimile editions; Taciunum Sanitatus and Tres Riches Heures de duc de Berry, both reasonably easy to obtain through interlibrary loan. Actually, there are a couple of Duc de Berry books of hours or that sort of thing out there as well. I recently saw a reproduced illustration from Troiles and Cresideye from Corpus Christi College in Cambridge that looks to be end of the 14th c or a little later. From whom it was created, I have no idea, so I don't know if the clothing illustrated is English, French, Flemish, Italian, etc, etc. After those particular suggestions, look at museum collection catalogs and lots of art books. Good luck, Kerri ------------------------------ asia reva poppers [32,354]CSuX:re--ot--hemispherism Subject: Re: H-COST: RE--OT--Hemispherism From: Asia Reva Poppers Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 20:10:10 -0400 - -Poster: Asia Reva Poppers At 12:46 PM 8/20/97 -0400, DTJacobson@aol.com wrote: >-Poster: DTJacobson@aol.com > >In H-Costume Digest #47, Sarah J wrote: > ><the other *in turn* for 6 months out of the year... (which 6 months are >subjective) Personally, I'd rather be in Austrailia now... Heat is my >enemy---anyone know a place in the world where it doesn't go above 80 and >never below 50?--I want to live there.>> > >San Francisco. It's presently about 60 degrees and raining (in August!). The >ocean and the world-famous fog moderate the temperatures so that it almost >never gets above 80 during the summer, and rarely drops below 50 (daytime >temp) during the winter. > >Dawn Jacobson >DTJacobson@aol.com Also, of course, anywhere on the California coast _between_ Santa Barbara and San Francisco has similarly mild-'n-lovely weather. San Louis Obispo and Santa Cruz are two of my favorites. This nice-weather region extends along the coast north from San Francisco, too, but I'm not sure how far. Probably at least fifty miles, though. - --Asia, who is homesick. ------------------------------ joan m jurancich [18,355]CSuX:rpfn Subject: Re: H-COST: RPFN From: Joan M Jurancich Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 19:10:29 -0700 - -Poster: Joan M Jurancich Sorry, I use it so often I forget that not everyone knows. It means Renaissance Pleasure Faire North, i.e., the Faire in Novato, CA. At 07:01 AM 8/20/97 -0700, Roxann Barber wrote: >-Poster: Roxann Barber > >what does RPFN stand for? > Joan Jurancich Sacramento, California joanj@quiknet.com ================================== ------------------------------ glenna jo & bill christen [36,356]CSuX:frockcoats Subject: H-COST: RE: frockcoats From: Glenna Jo & Bill Christen Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 21:37:53 -0700 - -Poster: Glenna Jo & Bill Christen I recommend _Mens Garments 1830-1900, A guide to pattern cutting and tailoring_, by R.I Davis, Players Press, Inc., PO BOX 1132, Studio City, CA 91614-0132, 1994 (Revised 2nd edition), $27.00. It contains simplified patterns that will help you understand the ones in the books reprinted by Mr. Shep. Yet, they are much better than any commercial frock coat pattern. I have not seen any that are of the quality of a Past Pattern product. (by the way, Past Patterns has a good shirt pattern, and the 1860s military trousers are also fine for civilian). I have been trying to convince Saundra Altman of Past Patterns to finish and producer her patterns for frock coats. A good plan is to make a "muslin" or practice garment first, and then make adjustments in your patterns. In the South lightweight wools were also used for coats in the summer just as we do today. Too many of us doing 1860's American Civil War era men's clothing think they were all out of heavy wools used for uniforms. Mike is also correct about the use of linen. Cotton trousers were also popular. I have developed a matrix of 1860's men's clothing in WORD format. It has been published in the Citizen's Companion. It was recently revised prior to the 1860s Southern Civilian Conference last month in Athens, AL. I will be happy to send it out if requested by private e-mail. Bill Christen - -- gwjchris@rust.net Visit the Curiosity Shop at http://www.rust.net/~gwjchris ------------------------------ glenna jo & bill christen [43,357]CSuX:(frockcoats) Subject: H-COST: [Fwd: Re: frockcoats] From: Glenna Jo & Bill Christen Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 22:09:44 -0700 - -Poster: Glenna Jo & Bill Christen Glenna Jo & Bill Christen wrote: > > I recommend _Mens Garments 1830-1900, A guide to pattern cutting and > tailoring_, by R.I Davis, Players Press, Inc., PO BOX 1132, Studio City, > CA 91614-0132, 1994 (Revised 2nd edition), $27.00. > > It contains simplified patterns that will help you understand the ones > in the books reprinted by Mr. Shep. Yet, they are much better than any > commercial frock coat pattern. I have not seen any that are of the > quality of a Past Pattern product. (by the way, Past Patterns has a good > shirt pattern, and the 1860s military trousers are also fine for > civilian). I have been trying to convince Saundra Altman of Past > Patterns to finish and producer her patterns for frock coats. > > A good plan is to make a "muslin" or practice garment first, and then > make adjustments in your patterns. > > In the South lightweight wools were also used for coats in the summer > just as we do today. Too many of us doing 1860's American Civil War era > men's clothing think they were all out of heavy wools used for > uniforms. Mike is also correct about the use of linen. Cotton trousers > were also popular. > > I have developed a matrix of 1860's men's clothing in WORD format. It > has been published in the Citizen's Companion. It was recently revised > prior to the 1860s Southern Civilian Conference last month in Athens, > AL. I will be happy to send it out if requested by private e-mail. > > Bill Christen > -- > gwjchris@rust.net > Visit the Curiosity Shop at http://www.rust.net/~gwjchris - -- gwjchris@rust.net Visit The Curiosity Shop! http://www.rust.net/~gwjchris/ ------------------------------ julie adams [34,358]CSuX:smocking (was: various necklines and breeches) Subject: Re: H-COST: Smocking (was: Various necklines and breeches) From: Julie Adams Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 20:35:45 -0700 - -Poster: Julie Adams Caroline wrote: >> We may be disagreeing over semantics here, >> but I assume 'smockwork' to mean decorative work on top of smocking or >> gathering and that I haven't seen in this period. Caroline, I think this is the third time we've gone through this smocking debate in the past two years. Henk is correct, smocking is quite documentable in Spain and the Holy Roman Empire from the early 1500s and lasting through very late in that century. I have NOT seen examples of _English_ Smocking until the 19th century. On two other occasions, I posted a huge list of references to this list on 16th c smocking. I hate to repeat the whole post. Anyone should be able to find it in the archives under smocking (where do they reside now?). We see smocking on 16th century German shirts, shifts and aprons all over the place. Now they didn't call it "Smocking". Perhaps Henk can give us the old German name for smocking which I consider "embroidery on tight pleats which can have an elastic character to it, but does not necessarily have to be elastic." Julie Adams ------------------------------ don & carolyn richardson [21,359]CSuX:crushed velvet Subject: Re: H-COST: Crushed velvet From: Don & Carolyn Richardson Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 19:44:52 -0700 - -Poster: Don & Carolyn Richardson Glenn and Shanda Grieb wrote: > > -Poster: Glenn and Shanda Grieb > Also, on the subject of velvet, does anyone out there have any neat > tricks they'd like to share about sewing with velvet? I find it > absolutely maddening. I have found cotton velvet to be much easier to > work with than poly, but it just doesn't look nearly as rich. Pin, Pin, and Pin some more. It'll help keep it from slipping (I pin every 2 inches or less when sewing on velvet). Use a roller foot if you have one. Carolyn ------------------------------ don & carolyn richardson [23,360]CSuX:italian & french costuming (1100-1399) Subject: Re: H-COST: Italian & French Costuming (1100-1399) From: Don & Carolyn Richardson Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 19:56:46 -0700 - -Poster: Don & Carolyn Richardson Kerri Canepa wrote: > - and been looking for other occurances of that particular flared > neck houppelande/cioppa. In other words, I've looked at a fair number of > late 14th early 15th c examples. In Italy during the 14th c and into the > early 15th c, frescoes were THE popular art form and there are a number > of books on Italian frescoes, Italian artists' frescoes, sites with > frescoes, etc. In addition to the two books Kerri mentions, there is a new book out with lots of good clothing pictures called, naturally, Italian Frescoes: The Early Renaissance by Steffi Roettgen. I've seen it at Border's but they also have it in the Edward Hamilton catalog for about $40 cheaper. Real *good* stuff. Carolyn ------------------------------ lee & bill [38,361]CSuX:um...er..."facilities" Subject: H-COST:um...er..."facilities" From: Lee & Bill Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 16:12:54 -0700 - -Poster: Lee & Bill And yet MORE information on the origins of toilets; read on if you can stand it! According to "Extraordinary Origins of Every Things" by Charles Panati: "The history of the bathroom itself begins in Scotland ten thousand years ago... the inhabitants of the Orkney Islands... built the first latrine-like plumbing systems to carry wastes from the home. A series of crude drains led from stone huts to streams, enabling people to relieve themselves indoors instead of outside." Skipping a few millenia, and focussing only on Europe, he adds that "Erasmus of Rotterdam, the sixteenth-century scholar... who wrote one of history's early etiquette books... cautions that 'It is impolite to greet someone who is urinating or defecating.'" (Which seems to imply that many performed these functions in at least a semi-public place.) And Queen Elizabeth I had an early flush toilet in 1596, designed by her godson, Sir John Harrington. "It included a high water tower on top of the main housing, a hand-operated tap that permitted water to flow into a tank, and a valve that released sewage into a nearby cesspool." The inventor then wrote a humorous book about his invention, was banished, and the toilet fell into disuse. Panati refers those interested in more information to "Clean and Decent" by Lawrence Wright, 1960, Viking. This book "begins with the Minoan achievements... and traces plumbing developments through... the 18th & 19th centuries." Sounds like good bathroom reading... Lee ------------------------------ rainbow greenwood [17,362]CSuX:getting off list Subject: H-COST: getting off list From: Rainbow Greenwood Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 01:58:49 +0000 - -Poster: Rainbow Greenwood If the person who was getting both individual posts and digests is still stuck, I think I found it. I tried to switch over to digest and got stuck with both, with majordomo telling me I was only getting the digest of course. What I did was to unsubscribe to the digest seperately, then go back in a little later and re subscribe to the digest, it seems to have worked. I think it's just a matter of approaching the computer with its own warped logic ;>). Good luck. Rainbow Greenwood ------------------------------ chris laning [54,363]CSuX:various necklines and breeches Subject: Re: H-COST: Various necklines and breeches From: Chris Laning Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 22:37:49 -0800 - -Poster: Chris Laning Henk, you may not realize it, but you have stepped right into a recent controversy over necklines. Everyone agrees that there are gathered necklines. But there is disagreement over whether they were actually gathered *by a drawstring* inside a casing, or whether the gathers are permanently sewn in place. It is common over here to see pseudo(not real)-historical chemises gathered by a drawstring; it's certainly easier to make them that way, and one size can be adjusted to fit many people. But it's hard to find illustrations or surviving pieces from before 1600 (at least) that show clearly that there is, or is not, an actual drawstring, i.e. a string that gathers the cloth as it is pulled. Some shirts that do not have drawstrings *do* have tying strings to close the opening at the neck, which can be misleading. As for drawers: In my admittedly limited experience, I find a hoopskirt (Elizabethan style) actually makes it *easier* to -- for instance -- use an ordinary-sized privy (the portable kind that looks like a telephone booth, only not transparent) while wearing drawers. (Also admittedly, my drawers have an elastic waist.) The steps are: 1) Step into privy, somewhat sideways. 2) Pick up your hoops on the side away from the door. This lets you turn the rest of the way around, and shut and latch the door. 3) Now reach down and pull up -- in the back *only* -- hoops, overskirts, underskirts, petticoats et cetera, until all the hemlines are at or above the waist. This requires bending forward somewhat (and yes, you can do this in a corset -- it's not that much of a bend). 4) Once they are up, it only takes one hand to hold them, partly because the hoop will hold them out to the sides. You therefore have one hand free to pull down your drawers and sit down. Once in a while the petticoat *under* the hoop will not hang properly when you reverse this process to exit the privy. However, if jumping up and down a few times doesn't fix this (the classic way to get your skirts to hang properly -- I wonder if the Elizabethans did it?) I, at least, have few compunctions about reaching under my own skirts to pull it down. I'm usually in an actors-only area at that point anyway. At the Renaissance Faire where I work, there is also general agreement -- at least among those women who wear one -- that a hoopskirt qualifies as a "handicap" and entitles you to use the larger size privies that are provided for people in wheelchairs! O Chris Laning | + Davis, California ------------------------------ ninni m pettersson [38,364]CSuX:c15th hats Subject: Re: H-COST: C15th Hats From: Ninni M Pettersson Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 21:50:05 +0100 - -Poster: Ninni M Pettersson At 17.03 +0100 97-08-20, Cynthia Virtue wrote: >-Poster: Cynthia Virtue > >Ninni writes in response to David: >> >So ... why do I think it is straw ... a VERY close look at the hat >> >in the 1 or 2 detailed illustrations I have of the painting > >> And so it did to me when I checked it last night! The weave pattern is >> certainly very visible in the largish (43 x 31 cm / c. 17 x 12 inches) > >Cool. I will have to find a decent image of the thing. My concentration >is in 15th c. hats, but mostly for women. Maybe I should make a list of >some of the most interesting paintings, and go 'on pilgrimage' to the >real paintings when I'm in Europe next Spring. Oh, do! Nothing beats looking at "the real thing"! Especially for noticing details. And I constantly get surprised - either the painting in question is far smaller than I imagined, or far larger. And the colours are different from *all* the reproductions one seen! (How I envy my sister who's going to Amsterdam in December - and she isn't even particularly interested in old paintings! Grr!) >As a side note, my parents have a reel-to-reel tape player. The black >rubber retaining-knobs on the spindles are exactly the shape of this hat; >I've >always thought of the hat as the 'tape player' hat. And I've always thought of it as 'the ugliest hat in the history of male headgear' :-) /Ninni M Pettersson ------------------------------ elizabeth higgins [22,365]CSuX:breeches Subject: Re: H-COST: Breeches From: Elizabeth Higgins Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 13:51:58 +0100 - -Poster: Elizabeth Higgins Hi Dawn, At 09:57 20/08/97 -0400, you wrote: >The garderobe system was introduced into English houses during the Middle >Ages. This system uses a series of shafts dropping into pits, drains, or >moats. Unfortunately, these systems lacked the necessary sluicing mechanism. >In the 16th C. people began to favor use of the close-stool, a box containing >a receptacle (i.e., a chamberpot) which a servant could remove and empty at a >convenient distance from the house. If one's house did not contain either a >garderobe system or a close-stool, one had a type of privy out back. I stand duly corrected! Lissa ------------------------------ elizabeth higgins [38,366]CSuX:19th c. "drawers" & an underhoop petticoat question Subject: Re: H-COST: Re: 19th c. "Drawers" & an underhoop petticoat question From: Elizabeth Higgins Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 13:52:19 +0100 - -Poster: Elizabeth Higgins Hi Glenna, At 12:21 20/08/97 -0700, you wrote: >There has been some discussion of women wearing drawers with "...the >only join was the drawstring at the waist (thus the name drawers)." > >I totally agree with the split crotch aspect of this statement, but I >only question the 'drawstring' aspect. Perhaps there are examples of >drawstring drawers at other times in the 19th c., but I've never >encountered any myself. All the examples I've seen of drawers and >petticoats, and other waisted garments have had fixed waistbands with >the material gathered or gauged onto the band and usually buttoned >closed at the back. Considering the emphasis on the waist from at least >the middle third of the century a drawstring would not be the most >slimming or comfortable option as many reenactors learn once they >discover the accuracy and advantage of wearing corsets. It has always >been my understanding that the term 'drawers' refereed to the act of >'drawing' them on over ones legs. Hmmmmm! Are the drawers worn over or under the corset? I recall references to suspenders being attached to the bottom of the corset, so wouldn't this make it difficult to wear the drawers under then corset? I've never been able to resolve this question! BTW if it's of any interest I wear Victorian style corsets all day every day, and have done so ever since I damaged my back in a highway accident. Since I had to wear a corset I decided that it might as well be one from my favourite era. It's also the reason that I have git into costume since as I have a nice small waist now I might as well take advantage, and the clothes are soooooo nice. Lissa ------------------------------ teddy [13,367]CSuX:duplicate postings Subject: H-COST: Duplicate postings From: TEDDY Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 14:09:55 +0000 (GMT) - -Poster: TEDDY Is it possible that the spate of duplications is caused by the same thing that caused yesterday's - somebody accidentally reposting most of the digest instead of just the little bit they wanted to reply to? Just a thought, that's what I've been assuming it was, and yesterday's was definately a reposting as far as my system is concerned. Teddy ------------------------------ frances grimble [19,368]CSuX:19th c. "drawers" & an underhoop petticoat question Subject: Re: H-COST: Re: 19th c. "Drawers" & an underhoop petticoat question From: Frances Grimble Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 06:44:47 -0700 - -Poster: Frances Grimble Elizabeth Higgins wrote: > > > Hmmmmm! Are the drawers worn over or under the corset? I recall > references to suspenders being attached to the bottom of the > corset, so wouldn't this make it difficult to wear the drawers > under then corset? The suspenders on a corset are for stockings, not the drawers. Hope this helps, Fran Grimble ------------------------------ sue toorans [15,369]CSuX:h-cost rpfn costume competition Subject: H-COST: H-COST RPFN costume competition From: Sue Toorans Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 07:56:09 -0700 (PDT) - -Poster: Sue Toorans It is official. There is NO costume competition and Northern this year. I called yesterday and talked to the promotions department (again). It seems like if we want one next year, the organization for it has to start during Southern. Trust me, I had a few choice words once I got off the phone. I've been working on my costume since Spring. Pfewy. Sue I am *NOT* a rabid feminist! I had my shots last year. ------------------------------ pnomail@bratshb.uwc.edu[27,370]CSuX:5th century norwegian clothing Subject: Re: H-COST: 5th Century Norwegian Clothing From: pnomail@bratshb.uwc.edu Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 11:04:22 -0500 - -Poster: pnomail@bratshb.uwc.edu Dear Ben, My sister gave permission to forward this if I saw no other answers to your question. DJ >I hope he gets answers on this because it sounds interesting to me too. > >The only source I am aware of is: >To tekstilfund fra folkevandringstiden : Evebo og Snartemo : Med et tillaeg >om hegtespaenders anvendelse i dragten / av Hans Dedekam. [Bergen : s.n., >1924] > >I have not tried to ILL this book, so I don't know if it is any good. > >If no one else gives any sources, feel free to forward this to the list. > >Wendy Robertson >wendy-robertson@uiowa.edu DJ on her husband's account ------------------------------ elizabeth higgins [31,371]CSuX:19th c. "drawers" & an underhoop petticoat question Subject: Re: H-COST: Re: 19th c. "Drawers" & an underhoop petticoat question From: Elizabeth Higgins Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 16:22:46 +0100 - -Poster: Elizabeth Higgins At 06:44 21/08/97 -0700, you wrote: >Elizabeth Higgins wrote: >> > >> >> Hmmmmm! Are the drawers worn over or under the corset? I recall >> references to suspenders being attached to the bottom of the >> corset, so wouldn't this make it difficult to wear the drawers >> under then corset? > >The suspenders on a corset are for stockings, not the drawers. Ho Hum! Of course they are but it would be a trifle difficult attaching them to the stockings if you are wearing the drawers under the corset. Over the corset then it's not a problem since it would mean the stockings would also be under the drawers. > >Hope this helps, Errrrr! Not a lot! Lissa ------------------------------ frances grimble [20,372]CSuX:19th c. "drawers" & an underhoop petticoat question Subject: Re: H-COST: Re: 19th c. "Drawers" & an underhoop petticoat question From: Frances Grimble Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 09:34:18 -0700 - -Poster: Frances Grimble > >The suspenders on a corset are for stockings, not the drawers. > > Ho Hum! Of course they are but it would be a trifle difficult attaching > them to the stockings if you are wearing the drawers under the corset. Why? There are pictures of corsets/drawers/stockings in a number of books on period lingerie. If you look some of them up you'll see how it was done. Despite the emphasis on a small waistline so often mentioned these days, the Victorians and Edwardians did not seem to have been bothered by the idea of compressing an unfitted chemis, and gathered drawers with a bulky back, under a corset. Fran Grimble ------------------------------ dtjacobson@aol.com[43,373]CSuX:american broadcloth Subject: H-COST: American Broadcloth From: DTJacobson@aol.com Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 12:52:08 -0400 (EDT) - -Poster: DTJacobson@aol.com Hi all! After reading the recent interest in American Broadcloth, I checked out their website, and after reading the information, did some additional checking. In the interest of continuing improvement in historical costuming, here is what I was able to glean from their website and talking to several *very* experienced historical costumers at our weekly meeting. Although it appears from the photographs that this is nicely-made fabric, I question the appropriateness of this material for historical costumes. Rainbow selvedge "stroud cloth" was produced and sold during the Reservation Period (1890s-1920s), and is used for making NA dance costumes of that period. The "rainbow selvedges" on older cloth dresses, shirts, aprons, etc. is actually silk ribbon which has been sewn onto plain wool. Per my contacts, there is no evidence that rainbow selvedge wool broadcloth was ever used prior to the turn of the century. Real stroud is a very coarse blanket-weight wool fabric that is not very nice for sleeping under, much less making clothes out of. The cloth used by most NA was a moderately coarse wool similar to frieze; the most popular colors appeared to be cochineal red and indigo blue. I am curious about their statement that the fabric is woven on "...equipment originally powered by water." As all looms not powered by human muscle (handlooms) were powered by water until someone figured out how to use James Watt's steam engine to power a loom, this appears to be somewhat of a misnomer. At any rate, for those doing *very* picky historical costuming prior to the Industrial Revolution, this wool will not suffice, as it is not handwoven. I again point out, I bear no ill-will against the American Broadcloth Company; I'm sure they produce a very nice product and are very nice people with whom to deal. However, as a weaver and a historical costumer, I wish all information to be available to everyone so that informed decisions can be made regarding fabric choices. Dawn T. Jacobson DTJacobson@aol.com ------------------------------ dtjacobson@aol.com[20,374]CSuX:what does rpfn mean? Subject: H-COST: Re: What does RPFN mean? From: DTJacobson@aol.com Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 12:53:24 -0400 (EDT) - -Poster: DTJacobson@aol.com In H-Costume Digest #49, Roxann Barber wrote: <> I think "Renaissance Pleasure Faire North," although no one I know up here (SF Bay Area) calls it anything but "Faire." It's (still) held at Black Point Forest, Novato, weekends beginning August 23rd and running through October 5th. Dawn Jacobson DTJacobson@aol.com ------------------------------ End of h-costume-digest V1 #50 ****************************** h-costume-digest-approval@world.std.com (h-costume-digest)[27,375]CSuX:h-costume-digest v1 #51 Subject: h-costume-digest V1 #51 From: h-costume-digest-approval@world.std.com (h-costume-digest) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 17:41:07 -0400 (EDT) h-costume-digest Thursday, August 21 1997 Volume 01 : Number 051 In this issue: H-COST: QE1's image H-COST: Chemise sleeve-end treatments Fw: H-COST: Various necklines and breeches Fw: H-COST: c15th Hats Fw: H-COST: Caps and Cap wires Fw: H-COST: Various - but much about breeches! H-COST: Shifts & Drawers (or "how do you go to the bathroom?') H-COST: Under Petticoats Re: H-COST: Shifts & Drawers (or "how do you go to the bathroom?') Re: H-COST: 5th century Norwegian H-COST: Re: 19th c. drawstring drawers Re: H-COST: Crushed velvet Re: H-COST: Caps and Cap wires Re: H-COST: Various necklines and breeches Re: H-COST: Norwegian books Re: H-COST: 5th century Norwegian Re: H-COST: Breeches Re: H-COST: Crushed velvet ---------------------------------------------------------------------- gail decamp [30,376]CSuX:qe1 s image Subject: H-COST: QE1's image From: Gail DeCamp Date: Thu, 21 Aug 97 11:21:56 -0000 - -Poster: Gail DeCamp Actually.....I believe this was in Wardrobe Unlock'd or one of the Roy Strong books; can anyone help me out here?..... Elizabeth I's image was tightly controlled by the state. She had three "official images" done during her lifetime, and all other painters had to paint her face from those approved likenesses. (Let's see... and I'm speculating here...paint the face from the approved likeness; paint the garments modeled by a convenient maid of honor... Elizabeth herself only rarely had to sit for a portrait!) Someone in her government (possibly Elizabeth herself) also decided not to show her advancing age in official portraits-- I believe they thought it would alarm the people. I don't actually own the reference that I read this in, but someone else on this list probably does and can provide more detailed information. Gail DeCamp >May not have been all artistic license--she wore so much white lead and >powder on her face, the wrinkles may not have been visible. Also, there is >only one portrait extant (a miniature, actually) considered to have been >drawn from life, according to Roy Strong. ------------------------------ deb [140,377]CSuX:chemise sleeve-end treatments Subject: H-COST: Chemise sleeve-end treatments From: Deb Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 13:22:09 -0500 - -Poster: Deb >Deb Baddorf wrote, >> Sleeve drawstrings: yes, frequently they ARE threaded through >> the sleeve fabric. You work several buttonholes. >> Let's see how badly the other 18C people disagree with me .... > > Well, I *am* curious about drawstings threaded through several >buttonholes, especially since you say it's frequent. Can you tell me >more about where you've seen this? Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear. I must have dreamt it. Or made it up. The only reference I see to that is in a "sketch book" and I don't count those for anything. [They mention the technique for caps too.] However, the only thing I can find pictured is the BAND sleeve finishing for chemises/shifts. Plus shots of what must be drawstrings, but no clue as to the technique used. Some are on such fine fabric, and have such tight gathers, that I'd almost be incline to thread my drawstring through a needle and just SEW through the fabric (as I would for sewn in gathers), and tie the ends as I wear it. But I can't prove ANY particular drawstring technique. Are there sources which show a drawstring casing or any details on drawstring technique? Or are casings as much an assumptions as "through" the fabric? Deb Baddorf Chemise sleeve treatments I can document: - ----------------------------- BAND end - ------------------------------ - -Boucher 1742 engraving "The Toilette" (pictured in Kyoto museum's "Revolution in Fashion 1715-1815" pg 139) - -"History of Underclothes" by Willett & Cunningham pg 76 Fig 31 - -ibid. pg 82 text discusses extent example with "narrow band with two buttonhole fastenings" - -doll has bands "18C Clothing at Williamsburg" Baumgarten p 14 - -painting "Mr&Mrs Thomas Mifflin" in "John Singleton Copley in America" Metropolitan Museum of Art, NY pg 2 - ----------------------------- BAND end followed by self(?) fabric ruffle (not fine lace, anyway) - ------------------------------ - -"History of Underclothes" by Willett & Cunningham pg 63 Fig 27 - -"Mary & ELizabeth Royall" in "John Singleton Copley in America" pg 53 Fig 53 - -"Mrs John Powell (Anna Dummer)" ibid pg 146 Fig 120 - -"The Bermuda Group" by John Smilbert ibid pg 171 Fig 159 - -"Mary Sylvester" by Joseph Blackburn ibid pg 176 Fig 161 - -"Isaac Royall & Family" by Robert Feke ibid pg 182 Fig 164 - -"Mrs William Browne" by John Smibert ibid pg 262 Fig 199 - ----------------------------- No ending at all - ----------------------------- - -straight sleeve, rolled up "Corsets & Crinolines" pg 69 - -extant shift, straight sleeve "18C Clothing at Williamsburg" pg 16 - ----------------------------- GATHERED into a ruffle (presumably a drawstring, but no technique or string visible) - ------------------------------ *2* layers of ruffle proceed from the gathering, so these is more complicated than a sleeve and a casing: - - "Mrs Michael Gill" in "John Singleton Copley in America" pg 10 Fig 4 - - "Mrs Benjamin Pickman" ibid. pg 86 Fig 73 Simple ruffle proceeds from the gathering: - -"Mrs Daniel Hubbard" ibid. pg 34 Fig 23 - -"Mrs Nathaniel Allen (Sarah Sargetn)" ibid pg 59 Fig 46 - -"Mrs Benjamin Blackstone (Eleanor Phipps) ibid pg 60 Fig 48 - -"Mary Carew" by James Lovelace ibid pg 176 Fig 160 - -"Mrs Theodore Atkinson" by Theodore Atkinson Jr ibid pg 178 Fig 163 - ----------------------------- GATHERED into a ruffle (drawstring visible, but no technique visible (casing, etc)) - ------------------------------ - -little girls in "Wm Perrerill & family" in "John Singleton Copley in America" pg 20 Fig 11 - -little girls in "Copley family" ibid. pg 48 Fig 36 - -ties on INSIDE of elbow "Rake's Progress, Tavern Scene" colored oil(?), not the engraving version in "Hogarth, The Hidden Masters" pg 61 - -ties on OUTSIDE of elbow "The Wedding of Stephen Beckingham & Mary Cox" in "Hogarth, The Hidden Masters" pg 33 - ----------------------------- STRING/RIBBON around outside of sleeve perhaps drawstring also, sewn into sleeve? cannot tell - ------------------------------ - -line engraving 1775-1760 shown in "18C Clothing at Williamsburg" pg 15 - -painting by Jan de Bray 1660-1680 in "John Singleton Copley in America" pg 257 Fig 194 - ----------------------------- Chemise sleeve CLEARLY distinct from lacy ruffle on garment - ----------------------------- No clue how chemise is finished, as self-ruffle is turned back. "Mrs Richard Skinner (Doroth Wendell)" in "John Singleton Copley in America" pg 102 <=========================================================> < Deb Baddorf baddorf@fnal.gov Costumer, RevWar re-enactor ------------------------------ henk t jong [226,378]CSuX:various necklines and breeches Subject: Fw: H-COST: Various necklines and breeches From: "Henk 't Jong" Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 17:48:36 +0200 - -Poster: "Henk 't Jong" Henk & Pauline 't Jong tScapreel Medieval Advisors Dordrecht, Netherlands > Hello everybody, > > Caroline wrote: > > Not sure what you mean by 'breast-clothes' - is this what I know as > > partlett? A separate piece of cloth which would be black or white, often > > white, worn over or under the top layer of clothing which covered up to > the > > neck to protect the skin? > > I have no idea what it's called in medieval England, but would > 'neckerchief' be what we both mean? Over here we had several types, > starting in the second half of the 15th c. They were all a kind of neck and > breast-protector or a guardian against indecent exposure of the decollete. > > > > >During the 15th c, but maybe even in the late 14th c for the more well > to > > >do people, the neck came to be gathered with a split in front and a cord > > >through a tunnel to tie it together. > > > > This is what I am not at all sure about - assuming Henk is talking about > a > > drawstring neckline. I'm looking at the late 15th and 16th century in > > England and Northern Europe, and I haven't seen any (might be there, but > I > > haven't seen them). All the ones I've seen in this period are plain > hemmed > > necklines for men and women until the early 16th century. Then they seem > to > > be sewn to a neckband (or, looking at Durer's self-portrait, gathered > > behind, but still not drawstring). > > > Hieronymus Bosch (working ca 1475-1517) has painted in his works > undershirts closed at the neck, gathered with drawstring and without and > with a split middle-front with and without closing means. > Albrecht Duerer (working 1486-1528) has several types of undershirts for > men and women: gathered with very wide neckopenings with embroidery and > smockwork, with and