h-costume-digest-approval@world.std.com (h-costume-digest)[43,0]CSuX:h-costume-digest v1 #59 Subject: h-costume-digest V1 #59 From: h-costume-digest-approval@world.std.com (h-costume-digest) Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 02:21:49 -0400 (EDT) h-costume-digest Tuesday, September 2 1997 Volume 01 : Number 059 In this issue: Re: H-COST: Suddenly London: suggestions? H-COST: textiles in London H-COST: Hammock book w/Sprang info Re: H-COST: Suddenly London: suggestions? Re: H-COST: Suddenly London: suggestions? H-COST: Joke Re: H-COST: Suddenly London: suggestions? Re: H-COST: Joke Re: H-COST: Re: historical needlework H-COST: Additions to Web page H-COST: Re: Cartridge Pleating Re: H-COST: Joke H-COST: linen? Re: H-COST: linen? Re: H-COST: linen? Re: H-COST: linen? Re: H-COST: linen? H-COST: New historic costuming newsgroup Re: H-COST: linen?--and silk? RE: H-COST: linen? Re: H-COST: linen? Re: H-COST: linen? RE: H-COST: Crucible (was linen?) H-COST: Linen Re: H-COST: linen?--and silk? Re: H-COST: linen? Re: H-COST: Linen H-COST: Corset circa 1755 - 80 H-COST: cold mangling linen? Re: H-COST: linen? H-COST: Book of Kells H-COST: source for fringe H-COST: Tissue H-COST: London Results ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ninni m pettersson [21,1]CSuX:suddenly london: suggestions? Subject: Re: H-COST: Suddenly London: suggestions? From: Ninni M Pettersson Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 23:04:14 +0100 - -Poster: Ninni M Pettersson At 16.20 +0100 97-08-29, Cynthia Virtue wrote: >Places already on the list, and I know I won't get to all of them: British >Musuem, V&A, National Gallery, Museum of London, Windsor Castle, St Paul's, >Westminster Abbey, Liberty House, Tate Gallery, Mary Rose. My interests are >just about anything up to 1500. I've never had the opportunity to visit it myself, but I've heard much good about the National Portrait Gallery. I don't know how much early stuff they've got though, perhaps someone more familiar with it would care to comment? (And you will need twice as much time as you think at the V& A!) /Ninni Pettersson ------------------------------ pulliam@acadia.net (deborah pulliam)[13,2]CSuX:textiles in london Subject: H-COST: textiles in London From: pulliam@acadia.net (Deborah Pulliam) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 18:06:39 -0500 - -Poster: pulliam@acadia.net (Deborah Pulliam) Fenton House (in Hampstead, owned by National Trust) has an excellent collection of early needlework, especially samplers and stumpwork (collected by last owner). Also a wonderful little house with a very pleasant garden. Deborah ------------------------------ leslie h [32,3]CSuX:hammock book w/sprang info Subject: H-COST: Hammock book w/Sprang info From: "Leslie H" Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 15:25:47 +0000 - -Poster: "Leslie H" For those who have asked, I originally found a reference to sprang in the book _Hammock: How to make your own and lie in it_ by Denison Andrews, Workman publishing, ISBN 0-89480-028-0, first printing 1972, my softcover edition printed 1978. Joanne Segal Brandford, at that time a Radcliffe Institute Fellow, provided Denison with information on a sprang hammock. He quotes from the paper "Twine Plaiting: A Historical, Technical and Comparative Study," which was an unpublished MA thesis by Irmgard Weitlaner-Johnson at the University of California in August, 1950. Finds include Denmark Bronze Age (hair-net, sash, and cap) and continue through to the 18th century in Norway (towels, mittens, caps, garters). Parallel development seems to have taken place in southern Italy from 300 b.c.e. and Coptic Egypt from the third through the ninth centuries (caps and shawls) as well as in India, Japan, and Peru. (After incorporating the sprang hammock into his book, Mr. Andrews discovered to his dismay that there was no historical indication that sprang had been used for hammocks and that the hammock was, in fact, Ms. Brandford's idea.) That'll teach y'all to ask for references! Hah! Thanks for the suggestions of Web pages. I was curious about modern use of sprang, and I shall go forth and research. I didn't think it could be that easy. I'll try the crawler! Leslie ------------------------------ r.l. shep [30,4]CSuX:suddenly london: suggestions? Subject: Re: H-COST: Suddenly London: suggestions? From: "R.L. Shep" Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 17:05:25 +0100 - -Poster: "R.L. Shep" Ninni M Pettersson wrote: > > -Poster: Ninni M Pettersson > > At 16.20 +0100 97-08-29, Cynthia Virtue wrote: > >Places already on the list, and I know I won't get to all of them: British > >Musuem, V&A, National Gallery, Museum of London, Windsor Castle, St Paul's, > >Westminster Abbey, Liberty House, Tate Gallery, Mary Rose. My interests are > >just about anything up to 1500. > > I've never had the opportunity to visit it myself, but I've heard much good > about the National Portrait Gallery. I don't know how much early stuff > they've got though, perhaps someone more familiar with it would care to > comment? > > (And you will need twice as much time as you think at the V& A!) > > /Ninni Pettersson > Do it. Definitely... They are arranged by date & if I remember rightly it starts at the top for the earliest and you work down (but I may be wrong about that)... they will tell you. ~!~ R.L. Shep ------------------------------ seamstrix@juno.com[20,5]CSuX:suddenly london: suggestions? Subject: Re: H-COST: Suddenly London: suggestions? From: seamstrix@juno.com Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 19:25:48 -0700 - -Poster: seamstrix@juno.com May I heartily recommend the Wallace Collection? Although it has few textiles, it has a number of period portraits and other art work in addition to a really fabulous collection of arms and armor. It's not too far away from Mdme. Tussauds, but worlds of difference! I also recommend Leeds Castle, which is not in Leeds-it's in Maidstone. Those wacky Brits, go figure. It was Katherine de Valois's dowager castle(Henry V's widow) and may be the place she started carrying on with that Owen Tudor-person. Parts of it date back to the Norman's but it was lived in as a personal residence until quite recently so you can have lovely fantasies of living in a castle. Wallace Collection is free, admission fee for Leeds Castle. Happy wandering! Karen ------------------------------ glenn and shanda grieb [19,6]CSuX:joke Subject: H-COST: Joke From: Glenn and Shanda Grieb Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 20:58:21 -0500 - -Poster: Glenn and Shanda Grieb Hi, Shanda's husband Glenn here. Just a quick joke. Q: How many H-Costume list members does it take to screw in a light bulb? A: Four. One to screw in the light bulb and three to "discuss" whether a costume sewn under electric lighting is "authentic". HeHe. This joke represents the views of Shanda's husband and is not meant to reflect Shanda's views or those of other H-Costume list members. Glenn ------------------------------ cynthia virtue [16,7]CSuX:suddenly london: suggestions? Subject: Re: H-COST: Suddenly London: suggestions? From: Cynthia Virtue Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 18:45:52 -0700 - -Poster: Cynthia Virtue DUNHAM Patricia R wrote: > anybody want to volunteer to arrange this info in, say, order of how I can arrange it (seems fitting, unless there's someone more eager) and will save it this time, in at least email form; I've recieved many emails already. And I can put it on a web page -- but that would have to be after I return. Thank you to once and future suggestors -- to answer a question: I will have 'normal' business hours; I'll have time to see some things. ------------------------------ seamstrix@juno.com[6,8]CSuX:joke Subject: Re: H-COST: Joke From: seamstrix@juno.com Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 22:03:20 -0700 - -Poster: seamstrix@juno.com Tee-hee....very funny....truth stings don't it...... ------------------------------ kerri canepa [34,9]CSuX:historical needlework Subject: Re: H-COST: Re: historical needlework From: Kerri Canepa Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 19:35:11 -0800 (ADT) - -Poster: Kerri Canepa Leslie, On Fri, 29 Aug 1997, Leslie H wrote: > -Poster: "Leslie H" > > I am interested in embroidery from early Turkey, Persia, and Russia > back to about 1000 C.E. If such early topics were included in the > list, I'd be interested. (I know, the SCA strikes again, but it > keeps us off the streets!) The Textile Museum in Washington DC has several examples of Turkish and Persian embroideries but I can't tell you what the dates are. They have some earlier Egyptian or Syrian embroideries as well. > > I'm also curious about whether anyone out there has any information > on sprang netting. I have a book called _Sprang; Thread Twisting, A Creative Textile technique_ by Hella Skowronski and Mary Reddy, Van Nostrand Reinhold Co;, 1974, ISBN 0-442-27642-7. It should get you started. > > Thanks! > Leslie No problem ! Kerri > ------------------------------ penny e. ladnier [23,10]CSuX:additions to web page Subject: H-COST: Additions to Web page From: "Penny E. Ladnier" Date: Sat, 30 Aug 1997 01:05:13 -0400 - -Poster: "Penny E. Ladnier" I just added some new links to my web page for the section, Costumes Painted by the Masters. Check it out. http://www.geocities.com/FashionAvenue/1899 Later...Penny Penny E. Dunlap Ladnier, s0peladn@erols.com Historic Costume Research Web Page http://www.geocities.com/FashionAvenue/1899 member: Costume Society of America American Fashion Council Virginia Commonwealth University Alumni (finally!) ------------------------------ dtjacobson@aol.com[34,11]CSuX:cartridge pleating Subject: H-COST: Re: Cartridge Pleating From: DTJacobson@aol.com Date: Sat, 30 Aug 1997 01:25:51 -0400 (EDT) - -Poster: DTJacobson@aol.com In H-Costume Digest #56 DJ (on her husband's account) wrote: <> Turn over and hem the upper edge of your skirt (or sleeve) fabric. If it is a thin fabric (gingham, silk, very thin linen), stiffen it with a piece of interfacing. Take a piece of strong thread, knot it at one end, and make a series of running stitches (- - - - - - - -) along the top of the piece. Make a second row of running stitches that match the first row about 1/4 - 3/8 inch below the first row. If you think it might be necessary, add a third row. Your rows of stitching should look like this: - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Pull all three threads at the same time and gather the fabric into pleats. If it's pleated correctly, you will get a series of straight up and down pleats. When you sew your skirt onto your bodice, you sew only the top edge of each fold to the bodice. Hope this helps. I'm off to "rob trains" this weekend. 8-) Dawn DTJacobson@aol.com ------------------------------ henk t jong [20,12]CSuX:joke Subject: Re: H-COST: Joke From: "Henk 't Jong" Date: Sat, 30 Aug 1997 16:57:20 +0200 - -Poster: "Henk 't Jong" Henk & Pauline 't Jong tScapreel Medieval Advisors Dordrecht, Netherlands > Q: How many H-Costume list members does it take to screw in a light > bulb? > > A: Four. One to screw in the light bulb and three to "discuss" whether > a costume sewn under electric lighting is "authentic". ROTFL (really! well, not really on the floor, but in my chair: RIMCL) Henk ------------------------------ gwnvr@aol.com[19,13]CSuX:linen? Subject: H-COST: linen? From: Gwnvr@aol.com Date: Sat, 30 Aug 1997 17:24:54 -0400 (EDT) - -Poster: Gwnvr@aol.com Linen and linen blends have suddenly become fashionable and these fabrics are starting to show up on the sale tables now. They often say "dry clean only" ??? Why is that? Is this linen inferior to the linen used in past times before the invention of dry cleaning? I bought some white linen/cotton blend hoping to get a more correct look to a chemise but it looks kind of "fuzzy" since washing it. It will be fine for "work" clothes, I think... I looks sort of like the fabric used for Elizabeth's clothes in "The Crucible". (Anyone want to comment on the costuming for that? I was very releaved to not see identical "pilgrim" dresses!...and I was intrigued by the variety of different head coverings worn) Jennifer ------------------------------ donna kenton [45,14]CSuX:linen? Subject: Re: H-COST: linen? From: Donna Kenton Date: Sat, 30 Aug 1997 18:10:32 -0400 - -Poster: Donna Kenton Gwnvr@aol.com wrote: > -Poster: Gwnvr@aol.com > > Linen and linen blends have suddenly become fashionable and these > fabrics > are starting to show up on the sale tables now. They often say "dry > clean > only" ??? Why is that? Is this linen inferior to the linen used in > past times before > the invention of dry cleaning? I never dry clean anything if I can avoid it, and I love my linen. However you *will* want to prewash it. There was a lovely tunic I made for my daughter that shrunk, and ended up given to someone else. And many dyes are not colorfast, particularly the darker colors. I have a strong blue linen gown, which was prewashed before making it up, and is always washed separately. It still runs, in spite of putting salt and such in the water. Other than these precautions, I just throw it in the washer and dryer, the same as I wash everything else. Many manufacturers list linen as "dry clean only" because it's easier than having to explain all the potential problems you might have with it. I don't know whether or not it will shrink if dry-cleaned. > I bought some white linen/cotton blend hoping > to get a more correct look to a chemise but it looks kind of "fuzzy" > since > washing it. I suspect that would probably be the cotton in it. I have a 100% linen chemise, and don't have that look, but my linen/cotton blend one isn't as crisp looking as the linen one. Donna - -- Donna Kenton * donna@dabbler.com * http://www.dabbler.com/ ------------------------------ rognstad sylvia [17,15]CSuX:linen? Subject: Re: H-COST: linen? From: Rognstad Sylvia Date: Sat, 30 Aug 1997 17:31:36 -0600 (MDT) - -Poster: Rognstad Sylvia I was told at some time that if you want linen to stay crisp, then have it dry cleaned. If you want it to soften up, wash it. Sylvia R > > Linen and linen blends have suddenly become fashionable and these fabrics > are starting to show up on the sale tables now. They often say "dry clean > only" ??? > Why is that? Is this linen inferior to the linen used in past times before > the invention of dry cleaning? > ------------------------------ seamstrix@juno.com[16,16]CSuX:linen? Subject: Re: H-COST: linen? From: seamstrix@juno.com Date: Sat, 30 Aug 1997 17:24:47 -0700 - -Poster: seamstrix@juno.com Hello everyone, I think that the reason most bolts of linen are marked 'dry clean only' is that linen wrinkles. Our grandmothers knew that and accepted it, today we are used to perm press synthetics and many people panic at a few wrinkles and a bit of ironing. I have washed many pieces marked 'dry clean only' and aside from the wrinkles have never seen a problem. The linen is not inferior, moderns are just cranky about ironing. Karen ------------------------------ donna kenton [20,17]CSuX:linen? Subject: Re: H-COST: linen? From: Donna Kenton Date: Sat, 30 Aug 1997 22:13:34 -0400 - -Poster: Donna Kenton Rognstad Sylvia wrote: > -Poster: Rognstad Sylvia > > I was told at some time that if you want linen to stay crisp, then > have it > dry cleaned. If you want it to soften up, wash it. It will be beautifully crisp if you iron it while it's still wet. Donna - -- Donna Kenton * donna@dabbler.com * http://www.dabbler.com/ ------------------------------ frances grimble [12,18]CSuX:new historic costuming newsgroup Subject: H-COST: New historic costuming newsgroup From: Frances Grimble Date: Sat, 30 Aug 1997 19:09:27 -0700 - -Poster: Frances Grimble There is a new costuming newsgroup called alt.history.costuming, though not many messages have been posted so far. However, there is one describing the newsgroup's charter. Fran Grimble ------------------------------ sara j. davitt [18,19]CSuX:linen?--and silk? Subject: Re: H-COST: linen?--and silk? From: "Sara J. Davitt" Date: Sat, 30 Aug 1997 23:30:30 -0500 (CDT) - -Poster: "Sara J. Davitt" > -Poster: Gwnvr@aol.com > Linen and linen blends have suddenly become fashionable and these fabrics > are starting to show up on the sale tables now. They often say "dry clean > only" ??? actually, thise reminds me... what's with silk, being dry clean only??? as well as linen?... both have been around WAY before obnoxious chemicals... what makes it so important to dry clean them?... are dry cleaning attendants right?.. I realize the shrinkage problems... but is there anything deeper than that? Take Care, Sarahj ------------------------------ gwnvr@aol.com(smtp:gwnvr@aol.com)[41,20]CSuX: linen? Subject: H-COST: linen? From: Gwnvr@aol.com[SMTP:Gwnvr@aol.com] Date: Sat, 30 Aug 1997 22:16:36 -0700 - -Poster: Broneske Funny you should mention "The Crucible". I just rented the movie about = three weeks ago and we are reading the play in my "Women in American = History" class. I agree with you about the different dresses. I really = kind of liked them in their austerity. I'm not really up on that period = as far as the clothing, but they seemed to be pretty authentic Any comments from the experts? Joan B. - ---------- - -Poster: Gwnvr@aol.com Linen and linen blends have suddenly become fashionable and these = fabrics are starting to show up on the sale tables now. They often say "dry = clean only" ??? Why is that? Is this linen inferior to the linen used in past times = before the invention of dry cleaning? I bought some white linen/cotton blend = hoping to get a more correct look to a chemise but it looks kind of "fuzzy" = since washing it. It will be fine for "work" clothes, I think... I looks sort = of like the fabric used for Elizabeth's clothes in "The Crucible". (Anyone = want to comment on the costuming for that? I was very releaved to not see identical "pilgrim" dresses!...and I was intrigued by the variety of different head coverings worn) Jennifer ------------------------------ ninni m pettersson [31,21]CSuX:linen? Subject: Re: H-COST: linen? From: Ninni M Pettersson Date: Sun, 31 Aug 1997 13:47:43 +0100 - -Poster: Ninni M Pettersson At 03.13 +0100 97-08-31, Donna Kenton wrote: >> -Poster: Rognstad Sylvia >> >> I was told at some time that if you want linen to stay crisp, then >> have it >> dry cleaned. If you want it to soften up, wash it. > >It will be beautifully crisp if you iron it while it's still wet. And of course never, ever let it tumble dry. Linen should always be line dried since the dry heat of the dryer will eventually destroy the "vegetable glue" (sorry don't now the correct English word) that is was makes linen so nice and crisp (not to mention how wrinkled it gets by tumbling). Also remember not to wash it in too hot water (60 centigrades is ideal). (Ideally you should cold mangle your linen, first once when it's wet and then again after it has dried. The shine and texture you get that way is almost unbelievable! But I know that very few people have the opportunity to do so nowadays.) /Ninni Pettersson BTW Is the Brown-list *still* running? ------------------------------ ninni m pettersson [31,22]CSuX:linen? Subject: Re: H-COST: linen? From: Ninni M Pettersson Date: Sun, 31 Aug 1997 13:47:43 +0100 - -Poster: Ninni M Pettersson At 03.13 +0100 97-08-31, Donna Kenton wrote: >> -Poster: Rognstad Sylvia >> >> I was told at some time that if you want linen to stay crisp, then >> have it >> dry cleaned. If you want it to soften up, wash it. > >It will be beautifully crisp if you iron it while it's still wet. And of course never, ever let it tumble dry. Linen should always be line dried since the dry heat of the dryer will eventually destroy the "vegetable glue" (sorry don't now the correct English word) that is was makes linen so nice and crisp (not to mention how wrinkled it gets by tumbling). Also remember not to wash it in too hot water (60 centigrades is ideal). (Ideally you should cold mangle your linen, first once when it's wet and then again after it has dried. The shine and texture you get that way is almost unbelievable! But I know that very few people have the opportunity to do so nowadays.) /Ninni Pettersson BTW Is the Brown-list *still* running? ------------------------------ lukelep@neca.com[55,23]CSuX:crucible (was linen?) Subject: RE: H-COST: Crucible (was linen?) From: lukelep@neca.com Date: Sun, 31 Aug 1997 10:03:18 -0400 (EDT) - -Poster: lukelep@neca.com Hi Folks! I am little rusty about that late in the 17th cen (earlier is my bag) but I will say that I could watch that movie without too much 'costuming distress'. I will add the caveat however that I saw the movie on a flight to England in March on one of those teenie, weenie screens! As to some of their properties, the printed ones at least were 1st quality. I have two Bay Psalm Books that are 'movie stars' and I have no qualms about taking them out to a living history presentation. My 2 cents worth. Luke >Funny you should mention "The Crucible". I just rented the movie about >three weeks ago and we are reading the play in my "Women in American >History" class. I agree with you about the different dresses. I really >kind of liked them in their austerity. I'm not really up on that period >as far as the clothing, but they seemed to be pretty authentic > >Any comments from the experts? > >Joan B. > >---------- >From: Gwnvr@aol.com[SMTP:Gwnvr@aol.com] >Sent: Saturday, August 30, 1997 10:24 AM >To: H-COSTUME@BROWNVM.brown.edu >Subject: H-COST: linen? > >-Poster: Gwnvr@aol.com > > Linen and linen blends have suddenly become fashionable and these fabrics >are starting to show up on the sale tables now. They often say "dry clean >only" ??? >Why is that? Is this linen inferior to the linen used in past times before >the invention of dry cleaning? I bought some white linen/cotton blend hoping >to get a more correct look to a chemise but it looks kind of "fuzzy" since >washing it. It will be fine for "work" clothes, I think... I looks sort of >like the fabric used for Elizabeth's clothes in "The Crucible". (Anyone want >to comment on the costuming for that? I was very releaved to not see >identical "pilgrim" dresses!...and I was intrigued by the variety of >different head coverings worn) > > > Jennifer > > ------------------------------ uboru@pop.erols.com (dc)[11,24]CSuX:linen Subject: H-COST: Linen From: uboru@pop.erols.com (DC) Date: Sun, 31 Aug 1997 11:18:01 -0400 - -Poster: uboru@pop.erols.com (DC) Actually, I've machine washed and dried a linen T-tunic I made in order to make it soft next to the skin. After 4 years of such treatment, it feel lucious to wear. I guess your use for the fabric will determine how you treat it. ------------------------------ cynthia virtue [25,25]CSuX:linen?--and silk? Subject: Re: H-COST: linen?--and silk? From: Cynthia Virtue Date: Sun, 31 Aug 1997 09:49:12 -0700 - -Poster: Cynthia Virtue 1: Yes, it looks like the Brown address is undead. 2: Sara J. Davitt wrote: > actually, thise reminds me... what's with silk, being dry clean > only??? as well as linen?... both have been around WAY before obnoxious chemicals... what makes it so important to dry clean them?... I did some cursory research in the library about this a while back. The reason is that the sizings used on silk yardage spot if you get water on them. However, if you don't mind losing a little body, and a little shine, silk can be washed. That will take the sizings out, and also some of the silk gum. So I wouldn't advise washing a premade silk garment unless you don't need the structure of the sizings, but if you're making something, I'd say go ahead and wash it beforehand. - -- "Such virtue hath my pen...." -Shakespeare, Sonnet LXXXI "I knew this wasn't _my_ pen!" --Cynthia V. ------------------------------ irene lenoir [48,26]CSuX:linen? Subject: Re: H-COST: linen? From: Irene leNoir Date: Sun, 31 Aug 97 13:25:55 -0500 - -Poster: Irene leNoir Why are linen and silk labeled dry-clean only when they were around = hundreds of years before the invention of dry-cleaning? In this modern age of idiots suing companies for not putting warning = labels on their products to not do stupid things, many fabric = manufacturers simply find it convenient to label them dry-clean only. = They could label them with other instructions, but the label would = have to read something like: "hand wash or machine wash delicate, = cold water, mild detergent, with like colors or alone, air dry, iron = while still wet to avoid wrinkles, but with a press cloth to avoid = shine...." If someone doesn't follow these instructions quite right, = and the fabric/garment is ruined, they might feel the urge to blame = the manufacturer. By labeling them dry-clean only, the manufacturer = has referred you to a fabric care specialist. That way, if anything = happens to your fabric/garment, you will go bother the dry-cleaner, = and not be as likely to bother/sue them. By the way, don't be fooled into thinking that dry-cleaning will not = shrink fabric. Dry cleaning is performed at ridiculously high heats. = If you are making a garment that is going to be dry-cleaned, you = should have the fabric dry-cleaned prior to constructing the garment. How to care for linen and silk? Everyone is probably already very familiar with the care of silk: = hand wash or machine wash delicate, cold water, mild detergent, air = dry. linen can be machine washed at regular settings at whatever water = temperature you prefer (bearing in mind that it will shrink more at = higher heats). However, do not put linen in your dryer. Linen has = no problem with wet heat, but the dry heat of the dryer will cause = the fibers to degrade, greatly shortening the life of the garment. = Anyone who has ever cleaned the lint filter after a load of linen hs = gone through the dry can attest to the LARGE amount of fibers that = break loose. ________________________________ Jessica I. Clark ------------------------------ ninni m pettersson [25,27]CSuX:linen Subject: Re: H-COST: Linen From: Ninni M Pettersson Date: Sun, 31 Aug 1997 19:58:01 +0100 - -Poster: Ninni M Pettersson At 16.18 +0100 97-08-31, DC wrote: >Actually, I've machine washed and dried a linen T-tunic I made in order to >make it soft next to the skin. After 4 years of such treatment, it feel >lucious to wear. I guess your use for the fabric will determine how you >treat it. I guess we have different conceptions of how linen "should" feel. I confess that I want mine to be crisp and (if possible) a little shiny, and detest when it gets all fluffy and soft. To me that signals that it is somehow spoilt. I guess this is because I was drilled from an early age by my grandmother in how to properly treat table-linen. (Which was all the linen that I ever came into contact with before starting to sew historical clothes. Before that I never thought I could justify using something as expensive as linen for day-to-day wear, and it was obviously unsuitable for evening dresses :-) And so I want my linen chemises to have that crisp "linen-feeling" to them too. YMMV /Ninni Pettersson ------------------------------ viv watkins [11,28]CSuX:corset circa 1755 - 80 Subject: H-COST: Corset circa 1755 - 80 From: Viv Watkins Date: Mon, 01 Sep 1997 13:48:51 +0000 - -Poster: Viv Watkins For all the corset makers out there - the web site of the Museum of Costume at Bath has a corset, circa 1755 - 80 as its "Feature of the month". The address is http://www.museumofcostume.co.uk/ Viv. ------------------------------ melanie schuessler [25,29]CSuX:cold mangling linen? Subject: H-COST: cold mangling linen? From: Melanie Schuessler Date: Mon, 1 Sep 1997 15:28:26 -0500 - -Poster: Melanie Schuessler Ninni M Pettersson wrote: >(Ideally you should cold mangle your linen, first once when it's wet and >then again after it has dried. The shine and texture you get that way is >almost unbelievable! But I know that very few people have the opportunity >to do so nowadays.) Oh dear--what is cold mangling? It sounds very violent, but if it's good for my Irish linen and lace sundress, I'll do it. ;) And what does YMMV stand for? (your mother mangles verily....yonder man munches voles....oh, better stop now) Cheers Melanie Schuessler mail to mjschues@students.wisc.edu or visit the Costume Goddess Home Page http://labweb.soemadison.wisc.edu/users/schuessler ------------------------------ ninni m pettersson [63,30]CSuX:linen? Subject: Re: H-COST: linen? From: Ninni M Pettersson Date: Mon, 1 Sep 1997 23:10:47 +0100 - -Poster: Ninni M Pettersson At 19.55 +0100 97-09-01, Kimberly J Wegner wrote: >On Sun, 31 Aug 1997 13:47:43 +0100 Ninni M Pettersson >>(Ideally you should cold mangle your linen, first once when it's wet >>and >>then again after it has dried. The shine and texture you get that way >>is >>almost unbelievable! But I know that very few people have the >>opportunity >>to do so nowadays.) > >What do you mean by "mangle"? It finally looks like I'll be able to get >some linen soon to be able to make a dress and I'd like to be able to >care for it right. I was asked this the last time too, when I mentioned it when we discussed linen on the list. I don't know if mangling is something unique to Sweden, or if I am using the wrong word to convey what I mean. Anyway here is my answer. It's a little bit long, but that's because I found it hard to explain something that I've always taken for granted :-) First I looked up _mangle_ in my dictionary (Longman's Dictionary of Contemporary English) and found that they use it as a synonym for wringer and says that it is used for pressing water out of washed clothes. This is clearly not what I meant. In an older Swedish-English dictionary on the other hand they state that _mangle_ is indeed the English word for Swedish "mangel". A "mangel" is a contraption for making fabric wrinkle-free by putting it on rollers and applying pressure on these while turning them. Today most people (who uses them that is, a declining number as most people find ironing easier to learn) uses a mangle that add heat to this process, but there are still cold mangles around and these are preferable for linens. (They are usually driven by electricity, but I remember that my grandmother had a small, hand-cranked one when I was I child.) In my childhood (in the far-off 60s) the mangle was the terror of the laundry. It was a huge machine which essentially consisted of two marble-slabs with loose wooden rollers in-between. They made a terrible racket when used, and I remember being terrified of accidentally putting my hand where it could be crushed! These are rarely seen now-a-days, and cold mangles resemble warm mangles - an oblong box with two fixed rollers that are pressed together in some fashion and rolled when you pull a lever. You put the fabric to be mangled around one of these rollers, the other is used for pressure. Today mangles are mostly used for sheets, table-cloths, napkins etc (not only linen ones but cotton and synthetics as well). Using them for garments is possible, but only for comparably unadorned ones, as any buttons and other hard and/or thick ornments would of course be crushed by the rollers. The hard thing in learning to mangle is getting the fabric to go in evenly and without wrinkles, but that's largely a matter of training. Anything I've forgotten? Oh yes, you use a special cloth to protect the fabric being mangled from the rollers. On modern mangles this is fastened at one end to one of the rollers, which makes it easier to use. This cloth is always made of linen. I hope my ramblings make some sense! /Ninni Pettersson ------------------------------ su carter [24,31]CSuX:book of kells Subject: H-COST: Book of Kells From: "Su Carter" Date: Mon, 1 Sep 1997 18:07:54 -0400 - -Poster: "Su Carter" I have a memory of someone wanting to spend some time with the Book of Kells. Make a cuppa tea, sit back, put your feet up and enjoy this site. http://www.osl.state.or.us/csimages/kells/bk.htm Then follow the links and enjoy some more!! Now I understand why people spend big bucks for really, really good monitors!! Enjoy, Su _ Su Carter Williamsburg, VA, USA scarter@widomaker.com PS - thanks to Viv for announcing the stays at Bath!! ------------------------------ rognstad sylvia [11,32]CSuX:source for fringe Subject: H-COST: source for fringe From: Rognstad Sylvia Date: Mon, 1 Sep 1997 16:20:23 -0600 (MDT) - -Poster: Rognstad Sylvia Does anyone know of a source for antique looking rayon fringe, not the clunky looking stuff you can find at local fabric stores, but the really pretty lightweight stuff you find on vintage shawls? I'm looking for it in bulk at a reasonable price. Thanks. Sylvia R ------------------------------ rognstad sylvia [11,33]CSuX:tissue Subject: H-COST: Tissue From: Rognstad Sylvia Date: Mon, 1 Sep 1997 20:05:17 -0600 (MDT) - -Poster: Rognstad Sylvia I don't recall if we ever definitvely decided what kind of fabric tissue was, but I just ran across a reference to it on the Museum of Bath's website at http://www.museumofcostume.co.uk/tour1.htm. Forgive me if someone else pointed this out. Sylvia R ------------------------------ cynthia virtue [117,34]CSuX:london results Subject: H-COST: London Results From: Cynthia Virtue Date: Mon, 01 Sep 1997 23:17:27 -0700 - -Poster: Cynthia Virtue Dear Historic Costumers, Following is the list so far of What to Do in London if One has an Interest in Historic Costume. Thank you all for your suggestions. Somehow, I think I'll avoid the center of town this coming Saturday. Initial posting: I am suddenly being sent to London (well, Windsor) by my company for 3 weeks. Between working, I'm going to go to as many sites as I can. I've already made notes of the major museums to see [see below] but I recall from discussions on the list a while ago that there might be some textile-oriented museums that don't make the standard guidebooks. If so, would those in the know make mention of them, either to me or on the list, before Wednesday the 4th? I thank you all for your time. Places already on the list, and I know I won't get to all of them: British Musuem, V&A, National Gallery, Museum of London, Windsor Castle, St Paul's, Westminster Abbey, Liberty House, Tate Gallery, Mary Rose. My interests are just about anything up to 1500. From: MDSDMB@aol.com You have my sympathies - 3 weeks in London and nothing but work! Anyway, try and get by the New Globe. I found the place to be magical, for all that the building is new and the neighborhood is gentrified industrial. I only had an hour and so could not get to lunch at the pub (almost around the corner) where Shakespeare and Ben Johnson and their cronies used to hang out. Have a good time (who do you work for?) Mary Denise Smith From: Agnes Gawne You really should try to get to Hampton court - it's close to London/Windsor... IT was one of Henry VIII' s palaces - it has great Kitchens and the Royal needlework/embroider's guild is in the back... there's also a Lot of William and Mary stuff - but that'd be after your period of interest. The Tower of London might interest you as well... it has the royal jewels and lots of history of imprisonment and beheading... "With her head tucked underneath her arm, she walks the bloody tower....." (I just love that song... :) From: Ninni M Pettersson I've never had the opportunity to visit it myself, but I've heard much good about the National Portrait Gallery. I don't know how much early stuff they've got though, perhaps someone more familiar with it would care to comment? (And you will need twice as much time as you think at the V& A!) Ninni Pettersson From: "R.L. Shep" Ninni M Pettersson wrote: > I've heard much good about the National Portrait Gallery. ... > (And you will need twice as much time as you think at the V& A!) [not sure which site RL refers to] Do it. Definitely... They are arranged by date & if I remember rightly it starts at the top for the earliest and you work down (but I may be wrong about that)... they will tell you. ~!~ R.L. Shep From: seamstrix@juno.com May I heartily recommend the Wallace Collection? Although it has few textiles, it has a number of period portraits and other art work in addition to a really fabulous collection of arms and armor. It's not too far away from Mdme. Tussauds, but worlds of difference! I also recommend Leeds Castle, which is not in Leeds-it's in Maidstone. Those wacky Brits, go figure. It was Katherine de Valois's dowager castle(Henry V's widow) and may be the place she started carrying on with that Owen Tudor-person. Parts of it date back to the Norman's but it was lived in as a personal residence until quite recently so you can have lovely fantasies of living in a castle. Wallace Collection is free, admission fee for Leeds Castle. Happy wandering! Karen From: pulliam@acadia.net (Deborah Pulliam) Fenton House (in Hampstead, owned by National Trust) has an excellent collection of early needlework, especially samplers and stumpwork (collected by last owner). Also a wonderful little house with a very pleasant garden. Deborah - -- "Such virtue hath my pen...." -Shakespeare, Sonnet LXXXI "I knew this wasn't _my_ pen!" --Cynthia V. ------------------------------ End of h-costume-digest V1 #59 ****************************** h-costume-digest-approval@world.std.com (h-costume-digest)[28,35]CSuX:h-costume-digest v1 #60 Subject: h-costume-digest V1 #60 From: h-costume-digest-approval@world.std.com (h-costume-digest) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 11:22:22 -0400 (EDT) h-costume-digest Wednesday, September 3 1997 Volume 01 : Number 060 In this issue: H-COST: smockwork Re: H-COST: London Results Re: H-COST: Linen Re: H-COST: Dates Re: H-COST: linen? RE: H-COST: Bath Museum web page Re: H-COST: Dates Re: H-COST: linen? H-COST: HCostume: linens, silks, and a query Re: H-COST: Dates Re: H-COST: HCostume: linens, silks, and a query Re: H-COST: Dates H-COST: Thanks for the Kells site, Su! Re: H-COST: Dates Re: H-COST: Dates H-COST: Some thoughts on History. Re: H-COST: linen? Re: H-COST: Dates H-COST: Re: linen? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- katrina [20,36]CSuX:smockwork Subject: H-COST: smockwork From: Katrina Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 11:21:53 -0400 - -Poster: Katrina I have done a lot of what is today called English smocking. It is called = English smocking to differentiate from 'American' smocking. The English = is embroidery stitches worked over gathered pleats, about 1/8th inch = deep. The American causes the gathers to be formed by the embroidery = stitches. There is no special equipment needed to do English smocking, = Some people use a pleater to put the pleats into the fabric. Much faster = than doing it by hand. Otherwise, all you need is embroidery floss and a = sharp needle. I think the embroidery shown in the Durer works is what is = today called English smocking, i.e. embroidery stitches worked over = gathers.=20 Kat Hargus owner, Making Time http://www.makingtime.com/ ------------------------------ karren schaeffer [18,37]CSuX:london results Subject: Re: H-COST: London Results From: Karren Schaeffer Date: Tue, 02 Sep 1997 07:43:01 -0700 - -Poster: Karren Schaeffer Dear Cynthia, I am sure someone else has replied, but V & A is the Victoria and Albert. Just down the way from Harrod's and Past Times. There is a wonderful Lace shop about a block up on a tiny side street on the left just past the church as one goes from the V & A to Harrod's. Beautiful handmade lace and linens. I'll try and find the name. Speaking of V & A, my travel companion had to drag me kicking and screaming from the textile room and force me to see the rest of the museum. Check out the bookstore and the wonderful color plates from that textile collection. Karren ------------------------------ susan fatemi [38,38]CSuX:linen Subject: Re: H-COST: Linen From: Susan Fatemi Date: Tue, 02 Sep 1997 08:41:34 -0700 - -Poster: Susan Fatemi Ninni M Pettersson wrote: > > > I guess we have different conceptions of how linen "should" feel. I confess > that I want mine to be crisp and (if possible) a little shiny, and detest > when it gets all fluffy and soft. To me that signals that it is somehow > spoilt. I guess this is because I was drilled from an early age by my > grandmother in how to properly treat table-linen. (Which was all the linen > that I ever came into contact with before starting to sew historical > clothes. Before that I never thought I could justify using something as > expensive as linen for day-to-day wear, and it was obviously unsuitable for > evening dresses :-) And so I want my linen chemises to have that crisp > "linen-feeling" to them too. YMMV > > /Ninni Pettersson > Gee, I like it soft and "fluffy". Prefer that to those nice sharp creases/wrinkles you usually get. I don't know where you are, but I just saw linen for $14 /yd. Not very expensive. If you wait till it's on sale, it can be as little as $6-7 yd. (Tho' I loved the nuns' *really* starched "whites" when I was a kid) I almost always pre-wash fabrics before I use them, certainly linen. (There are some weaves or finishes that are ruined by washing, usually silk) I usually wash wool fabric too. "fulls" it and gives it just a little more texture. My personal pref. and opinion, no criticism of anyone intended. Susan Fatemi ------------------------------ henk t jong [56,39]CSuX:dates Subject: Re: H-COST: Dates From: "Henk 't Jong" Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 19:57:18 +0200 - -Poster: "Henk 't Jong" Henk & Pauline 't Jong tScapreel Medieval Advisors Dordrecht, Netherlands Hello Margo, You wrote: >My recollection (and I could be wrong) is that the SCA came before the RPFs. I know I attended the SCA 10 year anniversary in >Kalamazoo, Michigan in the middle/early 70's. (I really do have a terrible memory.) I have some information sent to me in 1984 by the then Corporate Secretary, Cliveden Chew Haas, which states that 1984 was year 19 of the SCA. This makes it 1965 that the Society was formed. Somewhere else I read that 1966 was the year of foundation, but who cares. In 1963 Ron and Phyllis Patterson put on a children's faire in LA as a background for a Commedia dell'Arte performance by the Piccolo Playmakers. This took on and got bigger and bigger until in 1967 they started Theme Events Ltd and in 1968 they founded the Renaissance Centre. It's no saying when the first real Ren Faire was, but I guess about the same time as the founding of the SCA, which has always been closely linked to the Ren Faires at least in California, as I understand. >And you are absolutely right about the quality of some SCA recreation. It varies from the sublime to the ridiculous. I would not say that. I think you Americans suffer from the Erroll Flynn syndrome, which states that the middle ages were like the movies (1926-Braveheart) that are supposed to take place in them. This in it's turn goes back to the romantic novellists of the early 19th c and their illustrators or other artists who were inspired by Ivanhoe, The Hunchback, etc. This influence was felt all over the western world (and a lot of the rest, as well) and became ingrained in everybody's mind. We're just lucky to be nearer to the place where the real European middle ages took place, so that we are able to see monuments dating back to the time, are close to sites dug up dating to before 1500 AD, have museums where one can see artifacts pretty easily and can buy books about the period in all European languages, while you are mostly only able to get and to read the English ones, however good they are. In the mean time we also have a hell of a time getting people to leave their opinions and prejudices about the middle ages behind. Oh, well, it's our job and we like it. Bye, Henk ------------------------------ henk t jong [81,40]CSuX:linen? Subject: Re: H-COST: linen? From: "Henk 't Jong" Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 20:24:15 +0200 - -Poster: "Henk 't Jong" Henk & Pauline 't Jong tScapreel Medieval Advisors Dordrecht, Netherlands Hi All, Ninni wrote: > A "mangel" is a contraption for making fabric wrinkle-free by putting it on > rollers and applying pressure on these while turning them. Today most > people (who uses them that is, a declining number as most people find > ironing easier to learn) uses a mangle that add heat to this process, but > there are still cold mangles around and these are preferable for linens. > (They are usually driven by electricity, but I remember that my grandmother > had a small, hand-cranked one when I was I child.) > In my childhood (in the far-off 60s) the mangle was the terror of the > laundry. It was a huge machine which essentially consisted of two > marble-slabs with loose wooden rollers in-between. They made a terrible > racket when used, and I remember being terrified of accidentally putting my > hand where it could be crushed! These are rarely seen now-a-days, and cold > mangles resemble warm mangles - an oblong box with two fixed rollers that > are pressed together in some fashion and rolled when you pull a lever. You > put the fabric to be mangled around one of these rollers, the other is used > for pressure. > Today mangles are mostly used for sheets, table-cloths, napkins etc (not > only linen ones but cotton and synthetics as well). Using them for garments > is possible, but only for comparably unadorned ones, as any buttons and > other hard and/or thick ornments would of course be crushed by the rollers. > The hard thing in learning to mangle is getting the fabric to go in evenly > and without wrinkles, but that's largely a matter of training. > Anything I've forgotten? Oh yes, you use a special cloth to protect the > fabric being mangled from the rollers. On modern mangles this is fastened > at one end to one of the rollers, which makes it easier to use. This cloth > is always made of linen. Mangles (in Dutch, as in Swedish: Mangel) are very old. The oldest form, still in use in some parts of the Netherlands until recently, consists of a thick wooden dowel of ca 70 cm length and 5-6 cm diameter and a narrow plank or board of about 10 x 50 cm with a grip nailed and glued on it on one side. Linen clothing, which is not completely dry yet, is folded in the way it's going to be stored and put on a clean wooden tabletop. The plank is put onto the roller and pressure is put on the whole, while rolling it over the folded packet. This is repeated several times on both sides of the cloth-packet and in differenrt directions. In the end the folds are mangled again especially, so that they become very sharp. Large clothes, like bedsheets, are folded once or twice, mangled, folded again, mangled again, folded again, etc. Mangled linen was the pride af many Dutch housewifes in earlier times. The linens were supposed to become shiny and crisp (as Ninni told us) instead of fluffy and soft. It looks a lot like ironing, but of course it's done without heat and with wooden implements. You might call it 'wood(en)ing'. It's supposed to date from the middle ages, but nobody knows from which part. No recognisable mangle boards or dowels were ever found, or it was never realised when wooden artifacts of this description were ever discovered. My guess is that if they split or broke they were just tossed into the fire, so we'll probably never dig up any mangles from before 1650. Hope this adds to the knowledge, Bye, Henk ------------------------------ deb [31,41]CSuX:bath museum web page Subject: RE: H-COST: Bath Museum web page From: Deb Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 14:41:00 -0500 - -Poster: Deb If they ever get the "Museum Shop" sub-page up (it's under construction now) I *highly* recommend their museum book. It has photos of everything on the web site, except the 1920 and 1960's gown (different gowns are in the book for those periods). The Museum of Costume and Assembly Rooms, Bath The Official Guide, text by Oliver Garnett & Penelope Byrde The Museum of Costume, Bath 1994 0-9013-0331-3 costume, British includes photos of embroidered clothing from c.1600 up through modern designer stuff (citation from a bibliography listing from this mailing list, though my copy of theguide book was bought in 1987 and is perforce a different print date) Deb Baddorf baddorf@fnal.gov I finally learned, on my last major vacation, that the BEST souvenir value for my money is to "splurge" and buy the guide book at every museum, castle, etc I toured. They have MUCH better shots than I could photograph, and provide wonderful memories of the trip. Not to mention great research material! ------------------------------ frances grimble [48,42]CSuX:dates Subject: Re: H-COST: Dates From: Frances Grimble Date: Tue, 02 Sep 1997 12:33:39 -0700 - -Poster: Frances Grimble Henk 't Jong wrote: > I would not say that. I think you Americans suffer from the Erroll Flynn > syndrome, which states that the middle ages were like the movies > (1926-Braveheart) that are supposed to take place in them. >We're just lucky > to be nearer to the place where the real European middle ages took place, > so that we are able to see monuments dating back to the time, are close to > sites dug up dating to before 1500 AD, have museums where one can see > artifacts pretty easily and can buy books about the period in all European > languages, while you are mostly only able to get and to read the English > ones, however good they are. I think you're making some pretty sweeping generalizations about Americans. Not everybody in the US has the same education, assumptions, etc. I don't know about reenactment in other countries, but I'm not sure you quite understand what it is about here. It's not as if people are unaware of the more grotty aspects of the Middle Ages. It's just that they would rather not reenact them. Even those who are most fervent in pursuit of authentic historic costume do not want their appearance to be authentic in terms of dentistry, hygiene, etc. However, they are perfectly aware they are making these choices. This is also true for other periods. The glamorous image of the 1930s in America presented by the local Art Deco Society is from Hollywood, not the average person's life. It is not the 1930s presented in either American history courses or as told to me by my parents, whose families were quite poor during this period. I assume all this evidence is also quite available to Art Deco Society members. But who wants to reenact farmers forced off their land by droughts, children in orphanages because their relatives could not support them, etc.? When all is said and done, no reenactment group is or intends to be an exact recreation of the period reenacted. If you want to know what Americans really are able to know about the history of the Middle Ages, I suggest reading books by professional American historians. Fran Grimble ------------------------------ dunham patricia r [115,43]CSuX:linen? Subject: Re: H-COST: linen? From: DUNHAM Patricia R Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 14:03:00 -0700 - -Poster: DUNHAM Patricia R Mangles are not a usual home appliance these days, I think. (In the US anyway) More likely to be found in commercial & industrial laundry facilities. In about 1949, I was helping my mother with the laundry (2 yrs old?) and smoothed something when she wasn't looking. She said she could see the bone in the two fingers that went in (hot mangle). Healed fine, but I still have faint scars on the tops of the first two fingers of my left hand. Never heard of a cold mangle before. Oh, and: YMMV = Your Mileage May Vary = "you may have a different reaction to the same stimuli than I do" Patricia R. Dunham - Eugene Public - 100 W 13th Ave - 97401 patricia.r.dunham@ci.eugene.or.us - 541-984-8321 http://204.203.17.34/library (EPL) <<<>>> http://members.aol.com/gerekr/medieval.html (home) ---------- | From: Ninni M Pettersson | To: cyneburh@juno.com | Cc: H-COSTUME@world.std.com; tuckers323@juno.com | Subject: Re: H-COST: linen? | Date: Monday, September 01, 1997 3:10PM | | -Poster: Ninni M Pettersson | | At 19.55 +0100 97-09-01, Kimberly J Wegner wrote: | >On Sun, 31 Aug 1997 13:47:43 +0100 Ninni M Pettersson | >>(Ideally you should cold mangle your linen, first once when it's wet | >>and | >>then again after it has dried. The shine and texture you get that way | >>is | >>almost unbelievable! But I know that very few people have the | >>opportunity | >>to do so nowadays.) | > | >What do you mean by "mangle"? It finally looks like I'll be able to get | >some linen soon to be able to make a dress and I'd like to be able to | >care for it right. | | I was asked this the last time too, when I mentioned it when we discussed | linen on the list. I don't know if mangling is something unique to Sweden, | or if I am using the wrong word to convey what I mean. Anyway here is my | answer. It's a little bit long, but that's because I found it hard to | explain something that I've always taken for granted :-) | | First I looked up _mangle_ in my dictionary (Longman's Dictionary of | Contemporary English) and found that they use it as a synonym for wringer | and says that it is used for pressing water out of washed clothes. This is | clearly not what I meant. In an older Swedish-English dictionary on the | other hand they state that _mangle_ is indeed the English word for Swedish | "mangel". | A "mangel" is a contraption for making fabric wrinkle-free by putting it on | rollers and applying pressure on these while turning them. Today most | people (who uses them that is, a declining number as most people find | ironing easier to learn) uses a mangle that add heat to this process, but | there are still cold mangles around and these are preferable for linens. | (They are usually driven by electricity, but I remember that my grandmother | had a small, hand-cranked one when I was I child.) | In my childhood (in the far-off 60s) the mangle was the terror of the | laundry. It was a huge machine which essentially consisted of two | marble-slabs with loose wooden rollers in-between. They made a terrible | racket when used, and I remember being terrified of accidentally putting my | hand where it could be crushed! These are rarely seen now-a-days, and cold | mangles resemble warm mangles - an oblong box with two fixed rollers that | are pressed together in some fashion and rolled when you pull a lever. You | put the fabric to be mangled around one of these rollers, the other is used | for pressure. | Today mangles are mostly used for sheets, table-cloths, napkins etc (not | only linen ones but cotton and synthetics as well). Using them for garments | is possible, but only for comparably unadorned ones, as any buttons and | other hard and/or thick ornments would of course be crushed by the rollers. | The hard thing in learning to mangle is getting the fabric to go in evenly | and without wrinkles, but that's largely a matter of training. | Anything I've forgotten? Oh yes, you use a special cloth to protect the | fabric being mangled from the rollers. On modern mangles this is fastened | at one end to one of the rollers, which makes it easier to use. This cloth | is always made of linen. | | I hope my ramblings make some sense! | | /Ninni Pettersson | | | ------------------------------ knitcat@aol.com[46,44]CSuX:hcostume: linens, silks, and a query Subject: H-COST: HCostume: linens, silks, and a query From: KnitCat@aol.com Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 18:32:07 -0400 (EDT) - -Poster: KnitCat@aol.com Hello! I'm a new member, been dutifully lurking for a while, and since I have a couple of answers on the "dry clean" question Jennifer posted and others have responded to, figured I'd jump in... Many, many things are labelled "dry clean only" these days. It's more a reaction to what *might* happen if you wash it than a real need. Anything washed incorrectly can be damaged: wool (not superwash, obviously) will full, cotton will shrink, etc., etc. Linen softens beautifully with washing, but it is wrinkly, as someone else pointed out. I do a lot of knitting (this is an understatement; some of you know me from the Knit List and the Fibernet list), and my general rule is to wash a swatch if I have any questions, before washing the whole knitted garment. Obviously, that's tough to do with an off-the-rack purchased item, but surely a fabric scrap could be prewashed to see how it would react. I have some lovely linen yarn that is going, someday, to be a shawl; it's incredibly crisp (almost crunchy!) right now, so I will be washing it rather *thoroughly* when the shawl is done to soften it up and give it drape! I might add that, just as a personal preference, I do *not* prewash fabric when I sew. I've found that it gives uneven fade marks that can sometimes end up looking weird in the finished garment. I do pre*shrink*, by misting heavily with a spray bottle and ironing hot (clearly, depending upon the fiber!). As far as dry cleaning silk goes... well. I do dry clean my precious heavy silk blouses and dresses because I find that the drape and the sheen are better preserved that way. Yes, you can wash them, but I started to see a gradual change in the texture of the fabric when I did that. I suppose if I were less lazy about ironing (though I don't mind ironing linen - it's actually easier than ironing heavy silk!) I would wash the blouses a few times, then send them through the cleaners to restore the drape. But I'll admit it: I'm lazy! And now my query (have I lost you all in all this?): I am looking for any reference you can point me to about what I am told is an article of traditional Scottish women's dress: the Arsaidh. I was once told that Handwoven magazine had an article on this, but I was never able to locate the issue. Can anyone help me here? thanks very much!! Grace =^..^= ------------------------------ julie adams [36,45]CSuX:dates Subject: Re: H-COST: Dates From: Julie Adams Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 18:12:58 -0700 - -Poster: Julie Adams >In 1963 Ron and Phyllis Patterson put on a children's faire in LA as a >background for a Commedia dell'Arte performance by the Piccolo Playmakers. >This took on and got bigger and bigger until in 1967 they started Theme >Events Ltd and in 1968 they founded the Renaissance Centre. It's no saying >when the first real Ren Faire was, but I guess about the same time as the >founding of the SCA, which has always been closely linked to the Ren Faires >at least in California, as I understand. Actually the are not closely linked to each other at all. Though there are a number of people who do both the Renaissance faires and SCA, the overlap is actually a small percent. They have entirely different focus and often SCA people complain that the faire people are "authenticity nazis" and actors, and the faire people criticize the SCA for having too wide a period and not being authentic enough. For years one would keep quiet about one group if one was participating in the other. The animosity has somewhat died down in So. California, mostly due to the SCA becoming a bit more concerned with appearances and being authentic in this area. Though of course there are still some horrible costumes, but there are at faire as well. - -Julie Adams (who is soooo happy the braided rag bag hat/veil thingy has seemed to have gone out of faire fashion! (for those of you who didn't see it, it was a long strip of braided rags attached in the front of a rag cloth. The braid was worn looped either back behind the nape of the neck or under the chin, either way looking nothing like any period headdress) ------------------------------ seamstrix@juno.com[19,46]CSuX:hcostume: linens, silks, and a query Subject: Re: H-COST: HCostume: linens, silks, and a query From: seamstrix@juno.com Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 20:38:26 -0700 - -Poster: seamstrix@juno.com Hello and Welcome! An 'airsaid'(various spellings exist) is the woman's equivalent of a plaid. It was worn as a large shawl and according to tradition was woven with a white or light colored background. It was not neccessarily plaid, it could be striped and one of my sources says that a golden/yellow stripe was traditional, but the source is Victorian so I wouldn't take it as gospel without other sources. "Scottish Clans and Tartans" by Neil Grant has a brief reference to the airsaid being predominantly white. "The Clans of the Scottish Highlands" by R.R. McIan is very romanticized, but is from early enough in the Celtic Revival that it may transmitt some accurate information. Karen ------------------------------ cornelius perkins [30,47]CSuX:dates Subject: Re: H-COST: Dates From: Cornelius Perkins Date: Tue, 02 Sep 1997 23:31:40 -0500 - -Poster: Cornelius Perkins Julie Adams wrote: > They [RenFairs and the SCA] have entirely different focus and often > SCA people complain that the faire people are "authenticity nazis" and > actors, and the faire people criticize the SCA for having too wide a period > and not being authentic enough. To include a somewhat larger picture, there are places where the SCA folk can and do complain about rennies wearing nonperiod fabrics and costumes, while playing guitars, eating turkey legs, and talking with wizards, elves, and other non-period stuff... It's all very amusing, actually. But it makes the fingerpointing and demonizing symmetric, and symmetry is always satisfying. > For years one would keep quiet about one > group if one was participating in the other. Still true in some areas. Crossovers are a bit wary of being tarred withthe worst attributes of both groups. ------------------------------ lisa boyce [19,48]CSuX:thanks for the kells site, su! Subject: H-COST: Thanks for the Kells site, Su! From: "Lisa Boyce" Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 23:51:12 -0500 - -Poster: "Lisa Boyce" Su Carter, you are the BEST. I was the one hunting 'The Book of Kells', and after a rather fruitless (and totally pointless, thanks to some misinformation over the telephone) and depressing day hunting the aforementioned tome (or copies thereof) locally, I returned home to 'puter to find your post. It literally made my day! I am now officially in 'Kell heaven' and have already gone through several cups of tea - ;P Thanks again so much-I have to go now, history calls....... Best wishes; Astrid ------------------------------ bronwens@aol.com[33,49]CSuX:dates Subject: Re: H-COST: Dates From: BronwenS@aol.com Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 09:15:38 -0400 (EDT) - -Poster: BronwenS@aol.com In a message dated 97-09-03 07:12:03 EDT, you write: << Actually the are not closely linked to each other at all. Though there are a number of people who do both the Renaissance faires and SCA, the overlap is actually a small percent. They have entirely different focus and often SCA people complain that the faire people are "authenticity nazis" and actors, and the faire people criticize the SCA for having too wide a period and not being authentic enough. For years one would keep quiet about one group if one was participating in the other. The animosity has somewhat died down in So. California, mostly due to the SCA becoming a bit more concerned with appearances and being authentic in this area. Though of course there are still some horrible costumes, but there are at faire as well. >> Having been closely associated with both SCA and RPFN, I have to put in my two cents worth and say I have NEVER heard either one complain of the other...in fact, most of my SCA friens in CA look forward to Ren Faire...I myself have driven days to go to it...in trueth, jokes are made referring to the differences, but these are done "tongue in cheek" I just don't want people to think that it is a general rule of SCAdians to criticize others who 'play' differently...we have a great respect for the members of The Living History...they work hard at their craft, just as we do... Bronwen P.S....no doubt there are those who have heard one side criticize the other...so please do go listing examples to prove me wrong...I'm just saying that it certainly isn't the norm in the regions I have played. ------------------------------ seamstrix@juno.com[35,50]CSuX:dates Subject: Re: H-COST: Dates From: seamstrix@juno.com Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 08:56:07 -0700 - -Poster: seamstrix@juno.com Well, people must be much more tolerant where you come from. I am an escaped SCAdian(who's trying to get back in, not enough time in the year) who has been playing at Bristol RenFaire for coming up on 10 years. I can say that when I first joined Court and identified myself as a SCAdian, you would have thought I said I was gay. Well, no actually they would have taken the gay thing much better. I would constantly be with people slamming the SCA for lack of authenticity and goofy costuming and not knowing the War of the Roses from the 30 Years War, and when I would look at them with a questioning expression(because I had previously demonstrated a knowledge at least as good as theirs) they would hurry to say "except you, of course". I even had people openly wonder what I had been doing in the SCA because I was such a nice person and had a brain and everybody knew that SCAdians were brainless and obnoxious. I think the problem is that each group has extreme members, who do stupid things and wear bad costumes and who get in people's faces. Those are the ones who get noticed. The reasonable people who work hard to improve their gear and learn about the time period they are portraying generally don't stand out as much. Since I joined Court, several other SCAdians have joined and done great work with St. George. In fact the Guildmaster is a SCAdian now, so I guess we are taking over. And I agree with the other folks here who have pointed out that the two often slam on each other for exactly the same things- two RenFaires or two SCA baronies might as well be slamming each other. Neither the SCA nor the RenFaires are perfect, and due to the way they are designed probably never will be. But they provide an outlet for people who are fascinated by other times and want to try to experience them, and so far no other groups have managed to do this as well or as long.(Getting off soapbox now) Karen ------------------------------ petrick/ghazli [71,51]CSuX:some thoughts on history. Subject: H-COST: Some thoughts on History. From: Petrick/Ghazli Date: Wed, 03 Sep 1997 16:36:04 +0100 - -Poster: Petrick/Ghazli Thank you, Fran Grimble, for an intelligent defense of an idea all too widespread concerning the relations of Americans to the past. I've been studying art history in Europe for several years now and have noticed, that at least here in France, and in relation to Americans, that history becomes almost an elitist property. The focus of this is "The Monument", as if all history is and can only be contained therein. "The Monument" equals history and if you don't have The Monument, well, you have no history. You certainly can't appreciate what you don't have. You can't really even conceive of it. At best you can only conceive of Hollywood. This doesn't take into consideration that history is more than large immobile structures. Think of American museums collecting artefacts of lesser interest to their European counterparts and therefore having a corpus of these artefacts that can produce a movement of academic reenactment that precedes what's going on in Europe. A programme of France Culture, for example, traced the rebirth of interest in ancient music to the collection of early instruments gathered in Boston, which gave birth the the Boston Camerata. They found their audience, and the rest, as they say, is history. But History is also more than artefacts. Georges Duby in his very last essays dicusses this positivist approach to the study of history and is wary. For him, the myths and dreams of a given moment in time are as, if not more, significant than any "document" of whatever unfallible origin. If it is more difficult to trace a floor plan of a dream than of, say, an outhouse I believe that it is also more rewarding, and this given the recent interesting thread on privies. And America is a direct result of the European dreams of the middle ages. How can we understand what happened here with Christopher Columbus without understanding the crusades in all their aspects-economic as well as religious? The cowboy roaming alone on horseback, seeking not gold (he's no forty-niner, though he may meet one along the way) but the adventure that heals the heart in an arid land is a direct and legitimate heir of the knights of the Quete del San Graal roaming alone in the wasteland for treasures beyond jewels, (for more on this look into Umberto Eco). Why is an American less capable than a European to grasp these things that create a mind, a heart? Perhaps we can find the ancestor of the American phenomenon of the SCA or the Ren Faire --with all that they can have of more fantasy than authenticity-- not in an academic society but in say the chapters the Order of the Golden Fleece and the delirious entremets of Phillippe le Bon. Dutchman Huizinga also found them to be of doubtful taste. The only reenactmeent groups that I know of in France for the middle ages have been so genuinely suspected of ill-doings as to be watched by the police. I don't know of any living history group at all, and I have looked. So much for being passionately interested in History. Working in a monument of the highest historical significance --La Sainte Chapelle-- with tourists of all nationalities form South African to Israeli I can't say that I've noticed in the Europeans more depth of understanding for what they see in front of them. In fact they are often less interested because they are so inured to the idea of "The Monument. " Sadly, where one does find a particular interest, one often has but to scratch the surface to find a nationalism hinding behind it. And Languages? Surely in the Netherlands but in France? Working in a place that needs multilingual folk, I don't know how many of my colleagues could pick up a work in something other than French and get much out of it. Thank you for letting me vent a bit on a subject I obviously bear close to the heart. I must return now to my altarpieces if I hope to defend my thesis next month. Regards, Vicki-Marie Petrick University of the Sorbonne, Paris ------------------------------ roxann barber [23,52]CSuX:linen? Subject: Re: H-COST: linen? From: Roxann Barber Date: Wed, 03 Sep 1997 09:02:43 -0700 - -Poster: Roxann Barber Henk 't Jong wrote: Linen clothing, which is not completely dry yet, is folded in the > way it's going to be stored and put on a clean wooden tabletop. The plank > is put onto the roller and pressure is put on the whole, while rolling it > over the folded packet. Henk, how does the fabric dry? I would worry about storing that slightly damp fabric all folded up. Or is the pressure great enough to -wring- the water out? This is great, sounds like one could actually make a homemade mangle and learn to use it. Roxy Barber ------------------------------ mara riley [33,53]CSuX:dates Subject: Re: H-COST: Dates From: Mara Riley Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 11:16:42 -0400 (EDT) - -Poster: Mara Riley On Tue, 2 Sep 1997, Cornelius Perkins wrote: > Julie Adams wrote: > > > They [RenFairs and the SCA] have entirely different focus and often > > SCA people complain that the faire people are "authenticity nazis" and > > actors, and the faire people criticize the SCA for having too wide a period > > and not being authentic enough. > > To include a somewhat larger picture, there are places where the SCA > folk can and do complain about rennies wearing nonperiod fabrics > and costumes, while playing guitars, eating turkey legs, and talking > with wizards, elves, and other non-period stuff... (snippage) In my area, my perception, at least, is that the SCA folk are much more authentic, and the rennies are not very authentic at all. And then there are the babes in bronze-and-chain-mail bikinis walking around... (shudder) These folks usually belong neither to the SCA nor the ren faire, but are simply using the occasion to exhibit their favorite fantasy gear. There were a couple of fetching elves with rather well-done costumes and wings at the faire last weekend (I went, in 20th c. street clothes/biker gear, with my hubby). Not authentic, but well-done costumes nontheless, so I had to admire their creativity while bemoaning their lack of concern for being in period. Corbie ------------------------------ dtjacobson@aol.com[63,54]CSuX:linen? Subject: H-COST: Re: linen? From: DTJacobson@aol.com Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 11:22:05 -0400 (EDT) - -Poster: DTJacobson@aol.com In H-Costume Digest #59, Jennifer wrote: <> The reason for the mill to mark it "dry clean" is because many people don't prewash their fabric before making something out of it, and the finished garment shrinks, or the fabric has been finished in such a way that washing it will cause the fibers to go back to doing what nature intended. The linen blended with cotton is called "cottolin" and there is a lot of really nice stuff on the market right now--I just finished a 13th C. "field grade" shift out of a blend of unbleached, dew-retted linen (70%) and long staple cotton (very long smooth fibers--30%) that has marvelous hand and exceptional appearance. The cottolin that fuzzes up after washing has short-staple cotton in it, and it's the cotton fiber ends that are creating the fuzz. Fuzz is not necessarily a bad thing--there is a material known as "tow" which is the short bits of flax fiber and can be used for spinning and weaving lesser quality garments than those made from the longest flax fibers (aka "line flax"). If you feel that the fabric is a bit too fuzzy for the persona you're costuming, put it aside for a simpler or "field grade" chemise. Ninni wrote: <<...I was asked this the last time too, when I mentioned it when we discussed linen on the list. I don't know if mangling is something unique to Sweden,...>> I think mangling linens is something that is almost unique to Scandinavian countries and those Americans which have emigrated. The cold mangle used by Swedes and Norwegians to maintain table linens is not a common object in most American households, and a hot iron and a bit of starch has been the preferred method for maintaining table linens in the United States. True, it does impart a terrific shiny appearance to the finished piece, and the same effect can be achieved with very small pieces by slapping them down on a hard surface while wet. smoothing out all the wrinkles and air bubbles and letting the piece dry--I understand that this was the technique many nurses used to use to "iron" their linen caps. For those not wishing (or lacking the cold mangle) to prepare linens in this way, after washing, roll up the linen articles and chill them thoroughly, then iron with a hot iron. I have linens that are 75 years old, have always been treated this way, and still look like they're brand new. Dawn DTJacobson@aol.com ------------------------------ End of h-costume-digest V1 #60 ****************************** h-costume-digest-approval@world.std.com (h-costume-digest)[28,55]CSuX:h-costume-digest v1 #61 Subject: h-costume-digest V1 #61 From: h-costume-digest-approval@world.std.com (h-costume-digest) Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 01:15:17 -0400 (EDT) h-costume-digest Thursday, September 4 1997 Volume 01 : Number 061 In this issue: H-COST: Errol Flynn Syndrome: It's real Re: H-COST: Errol Flynn Syndrome: It's real Re: H-COST: Errol Flynn Syndrome: It's real H-COST: SCA and other groups Re: H-COST: Errol Flynn Syndrome: It's real H-COST: Gold tissue gown H-COST: washing silk and linen H-COST: National Portrait Gallery Re: H-COST: Errol Flynn Syndrome: It's real Re: H-COST: Errol Flynn Syndrome: It's real Re: H-COST: linen? Re: H-COST: Errol Flynn Syndrome: It's real H-COST: Kull the fantasy Re: H-COST: Errol Flynn Syndrome: It's real H-COST: SCA issues and European list members H-COST: Cartridge Pleating H-COST: To each his/her own.. Re: H-COST: Errol Flynn Syndrome: It's real H-COST: Film and costume ---------------------------------------------------------------------- gail decamp [47,56]CSuX:errol flynn syndrome: it s real Subject: H-COST: Errol Flynn Syndrome: It's real From: Gail DeCamp Date: Wed, 3 Sep 97 09:35:10 -0000 - -Poster: Gail DeCamp Hi everybody, >I think you're making some pretty sweeping generalizations about >Americans. Not everybody in the US has the same education, assumptions, >etc. Yep. Unfortunately, in my experience (as an actress at the Northern California Renaissance Faire, Dickens Faire) his sweeping generalization about the American public is correct. Serious re-enactors research their subject and have some idea what they're talking about, but the general public does not have a clue. At the (Elizabethan) renaissance faire, I talk to patrons, and their grasp of history is pretty darned bad. (For instance, they want to know where the king is; I'd consider that a basic misconception about the Elizabethan period, wouldn't you?) >When all is said and done, no reenactment group is or intends to be an >exact recreation of the period reenacted. If you want to know what >Americans really are able to know about the history of the Middle Ages, >I suggest reading books by professional American historians. Well, actually, I did that in a college course that required substantial outside reading (the instructions were "Go to the library, find a book you like, read it, tell me what you read, that's your assignment.") The history texts available..... in a University library.... were outdated and extremely gender-biased. In addition, they tended to cover political history rather than social history-- so a member of the general public looking for information on, say, English tableware of the 16th century is out of luck unless he or she does some serious research in academic journals. My point here is not to disparage university librarians (who do an excellent job with the limited resources they have) or libraries. Instead, it is to point out that the general public does have a bad case of "Errol Flynn Syndrome" (I love that phrase!) and doesn't necessarily have the education, inclination, or resources to combat it. (I think they're probably too busy being soccer moms, personally.) Gail DeCamp gdecamp@best.com ------------------------------ cornelius perkins [26,57]CSuX:errol flynn syndrome: it s real Subject: Re: H-COST: Errol Flynn Syndrome: It's real From: Cornelius Perkins Date: Wed, 03 Sep 1997 13:09:09 -0500 - -Poster: Cornelius Perkins Gail DeCamp wrote: > >I think you're making some pretty sweeping generalizations about > >Americans. Not everybody in the US has the same education, assumptions, > >etc. > > Yep. Unfortunately, in my experience (as an actress at the Northern > California Renaissance Faire, Dickens Faire) his sweeping > generalization about the American public is correct. Serious re-enactors > research their subject and have some idea what they're > talking about, but the general public does not have a clue. Sadly true, but Henk's slam at Americans was not "most of the public...", but a direct response to a claim that the quality of reproduction in the SCA varies "from the sublime to the ridiculous" (if my memory is correct). Hence, for Henk, the source of this discussion, there are no serious re-enactors in the U.S. Neil ------------------------------ frances grimble [37,58]CSuX:errol flynn syndrome: it s real Subject: Re: H-COST: Errol Flynn Syndrome: It's real From: Frances Grimble Date: Wed, 03 Sep 1997 10:53:06 -0700 - -Poster: Frances Grimble Gail, > My point here is not to disparage university librarians (who do an > excellent job with the limited resources they have) or > libraries. Instead, it is to point out that the general public does > have a bad case of "Errol Flynn Syndrome" (I love that phrase!) > and doesn't necessarily have the education, inclination, or > resources to combat it. (I think they're probably too busy being > soccer moms, personally.) So how's your grasp of quantum physics? Seriously, we live in a world where there is far more important (and unimportant) information than any one person can possibly absorb. People have to make choices about what to study in depth. Even the amount of general cultural background people can absorb is limited. And it's growing all the time. I have a degree in history but frankly, my grasp of most "hard" sciences is shaky. I know many engineers and scientists, and I am ignorant of many things they consider basic information everybody should know. This may be true, but I have not had the time or inclination to learn all those things. On the other hand, there are many people who have not had the time or inclination to learn much about history. Why not just get on with studying whatever you have chosen to study and allow others, inside or outside the world of reenactment, to make different choices without putting them down? Fran Grimble ------------------------------ leslie h [33,59]CSuX:sca and other groups Subject: H-COST: SCA and other groups From: "Leslie H" Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 11:49:25 +0000 - -Poster: "Leslie H" I'm impressed that the thread on SCA has been so calm this time. People get awfully excited about this topic. I play in the SCA, and that's the key word; the people I like best in the society definitely consider it to be "play"! It's easy, fun, relaxing, and gets one outdoors in the summer. Any aspect that fascinates a person can be pursued as deeply as desired, which is how we end up with costuming laurels, etc. ("Relaxing" may not be the best word, after last night's Baronial council meeting here, but I digress.) We stretch a point with the dates to let the Cavalier types in, both because their costumes and manners are fun and because this allows for rapier combat which adds another dimension to light fighting. Other groups give themselves tighter limits and work harder for precision within those bounds. Good for them! It's a different kind of hobby, and perhaps more valid in the academic sense, but not as appealing to some folks. I chase enough details in my work life, and I enjoy "getting medieval" without that much precision during tournament season. On the other hand, I'm doing a full Russian court dress for Yule and 12th Night when I'll have more time to sew, and I'll be entering it in competition. Comparing the SCA to reenactment groups continues to yield the same results, because one fills one need and others fill another need. Enjoy whichever one you like best. Thanks for the rantette space, Leslie ------------------------------ legixhis@electriciti.com (richards/mcquinn)[45,60]CSuX:errol flynn syndrome: it s real Subject: Re: H-COST: Errol Flynn Syndrome: It's real From: legixhis@electriciti.com (Richards/McQuinn) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 11:34:49 -0800 - -Poster: legixhis@electriciti.com (Richards/McQuinn) Instead, it is to point out that the general public does >have a bad case of "Errol Flynn Syndrome" (I love that phrase!) >and doesn't necessarily have the education, inclination, or >resources to combat it. (I think they're probably too busy being >soccer moms, personally.) > >Gail DeCamp Errol Flynn Syndrome for things medieval but certainly not for American historical reenactment. The UK and Europe do Medieval well. It's easier for them. They live around it every day and have access to real artefacts and the research source materials. American historical renenactment in the western US is very small when compared to the same in the eastern US. Why? In the eastern US they live around it, have easier access to artifacts and source materials. For example the library at San Diego State University is replendena twith research on Meso America but nearly devoid of research on 17th-19th C North America. If you're a San Diegan and want to do Aztec reenactment you'd be in like Flynn. Also, I've seen several UK and European American reenactors and in my opinion many suffer from "John Wayne Syndrome". .................. (Oh and about "soccer moms"... In my opinion mind you.... what a slap in the face to women and men who stay home to raise children.) Sean "soccer dad" Legio IX Hispana, Roman reenactment http://www.inetworld.net/~cian/legioix.html Great Western War II, February 10-17, 1998. http://emporium.turnpike.net/Z/zen/GWW2/index.html ------------------------------ mike newell <72123.411@compuserve.com>[26,61]CSuX:gold tissue gown Subject: H-COST: Gold tissue gown From: Mike Newell <72123.411@compuserve.com> Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 14:24:34 -0400 - -Poster: Mike Newell <72123.411@compuserve.com> Dear Folks- I'm new to this -- be gentle with me! There was a thread and a recent message about tissue. I wrote a book many years ago for SCA use about fabrics and colors. What I found for "tissue" appeared in my book as: "a fabric of twisted and metal threads. This also applies to any woven stuff, especialy cloth of gold or silver, or of colored silk. It is mentioned in accounts of 1317. Pliny attributes its invention to Alexander. It was a rich fabric, much used for altar cloths and vestments. It was also a favorite of royalty, from Edward II to Charles II. It was made in different colors, and was dintinguished from plain weaves of cloth of gold and silver in that both warp and woof were of twisted threads. In order to prevent this fabric from tarnishing, thin sheet sof paper at one time were placed between its fold, and thus we have tissue paper." Now granted, I researched and wrote that nearly 20 years ago (and I think we can have a good laugh at the idea of Alexander the Great inventing it). I'm the first to admit that better researh is available now. I've just joined the list, so excuse my putting my two cents in. - --Kathryn ------------------------------ mike newell <72123.411@compuserve.com>[19,62]CSuX:washing silk and linen Subject: H-COST: washing silk and linen From: Mike Newell <72123.411@compuserve.com> Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 14:24:31 -0400 - -Poster: Mike Newell <72123.411@compuserve.com> People may faint, but I hand wash my silks in the bathrub in cool water. I also steam iron them (ah, I can hear you fainting now ). I am actually rather glad that my rented house does not have a dryer, so I have to line dry everything. From what I understand it's healthier for the fabric not to be sujected to the dryer heat, anyway. Since I never,ever put my SCA garb in the washer or dryer, this is not a problem. Hmmm-- maybe this is why linen garb I made years and years ago is wearing so well?? I have had pure linen shrink a bit even when prewashed (washing machine) in cold water and line dried. - --Kathryn ------------------------------ mike newell <72123.411@compuserve.com>[26,63]CSuX:national portrait gallery Subject: H-COST: National Portrait Gallery From: Mike Newell <72123.411@compuserve.com> Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 14:24:29 -0400 - -Poster: Mike Newell <72123.411@compuserve.com> Dear Cynthia- The NPG (National Portrait Gallery) is close to the National Gallery, and very VERY close to all those wondeful bookstores on Charing Cross Road. The NPG has all those portraits of Henry VII and Elizbeth of York, and Henry VIII and some of the wives, and Jane Gray and Mary Tudor. You have to climb to the top floor, but right across the top landing is that huge and wonderful family portrait of Sir Thomas More and his family. The bookstore used to carry good co stume and needlework books as well as postcards of virtually every portrait they own. For costume books I like two Charing Cross road shops:: Foyles (big orange banner, go to top floor for costume & needlework books) and Zwemmer's, which is actually on a tiny street just off Charing Cross -- 24 Litchfield Street. Go downstairs and turn right and there are interesting imported books you never see anywhere else. There is also a place near Oxford Circus called Franks. It carries o nly books on needlework, costume, and tailoring. I haven't been there since my honeymoon in 1991. (big wistful sigh) - --Kathryn ------------------------------ frances grimble [52,64]CSuX:errol flynn syndrome: it s real Subject: Re: H-COST: Errol Flynn Syndrome: It's real From: Frances Grimble Date: Wed, 03 Sep 1997 13:02:22 -0700 - -Poster: Frances Grimble Richards/McQuinn wrote: > Errol Flynn Syndrome for things medieval but certainly not for American > historical reenactment. > > The UK and Europe do Medieval well. It's easier for them. They live around > it every day and have access to real artefacts and the research source > materials. > > American historical renenactment in the western US is very small when > compared to the same in the eastern US. Why? In the eastern US they live > around it, have easier access to artifacts and source materials. For > example the library at San Diego State University is replendena twith > research on Meso America but nearly devoid of research on 17th-19th C North > America. If you're a San Diegan and want to do Aztec reenactment you'd be > in like Flynn. Here in California, there is much less interest in reenactment of the American Revolutionary period, and some other periods before California was heavily populated, than there is on the East Coast. However, I don't think the issue is geographical proximity to information about history. After all everyone has access to books (if nothing else via interlibrary loan), and to airplanes if it is really necessary to study historic buildings and artifacts. I think the issue is how easy it is, financially and organizationally, to set up a group interested in a given period and find local historic events to reenact. My impression is that back East, if you want to reenact the late 18th or early 19th century, many museums and Chambers of Commerce sponsor activities and events around those periods. More recorded historic events happened there, there are historic buildings to use, so the events are more plausible to funding organizations. Public sponsorship may not be essential, but it seems like a great help both to individual reenactors and to private groups who can't afford to put on many large events. I suspect a lot of reenactors don't want to put tons of money and effort into costumes if they can hardly ever wear them; into period fencing lessons if there are hardly any opportunities to do period fencing; etc. In other words, no matter who sponsors the activities, the more activities there are in a geographic area the more people want to join in. A few private reenactment groups, like the SCA, can support many events in geographic areas where the historic events did not take place. But it takes time to build up a group that large and prosperous. Fran Grimble ------------------------------ andreag@mail.harenet.com (andrea gideon)[21,65]CSuX:errol flynn syndrome: it s real Subject: Re: H-COST: Errol Flynn Syndrome: It's real From: andreag@mail.harenet.com (Andrea Gideon) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 16:34:13 -0400 - -Poster: andreag@mail.harenet.com (Andrea Gideon) Sadly true, but Henk's slam at Americans was not "most of the public...", but a direct response to a claim that the quality of reproduction in the SCA varies "from the sublime to the ridiculous" (if my memory is correct). Hence, for Henk, the source of this discussion, there are no serious re-enactors in the U.S. Neil But we all know that the SCA is not re-enactment. If you ask American re-enactors they'll say the same thing. And as someone who was once a member, I agree with Henk. Andrea ------------------------------ joycelyn falsken [22,66]CSuX:linen? Subject: Re: H-COST: linen? From: Joycelyn Falsken Date: Wed, 03 Sep 1997 17:36:03 -0700 - -Poster: Joycelyn Falsken DTJacobson@aol.com wrote: > > For those not wishing (or lacking the cold mangle) to prepare linens in this > way, after washing, roll up the linen articles and chill them thoroughly, > then iron with a hot iron. I have linens that are 75 years old, have always > been treated this way, and still look like they're brand new. > Dawn, This sounds like a great alternative for those who have no mangle. When you chill the linen after washing, do you dry it before chilling and iron it ? Or do you chill it and iron while still damp? Thanks! - -- Joycelyn Falsken jfalsken@ricochet.net ------------------------------ legixhis@electriciti.com (richards/mcquinn)[59,67]CSuX:errol flynn syndrome: it s real Subject: Re: H-COST: Errol Flynn Syndrome: It's real From: legixhis@electriciti.com (Richards/McQuinn) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 17:54:17 -0800 - -Poster: legixhis@electriciti.com (Richards/McQuinn) >-Poster: Frances Grimble > >Richards/McQuinn wrote: > >> Errol Flynn Syndrome for things medieval but certainly not for American >> historical reenactment. >> >> The UK and Europe do Medieval well. It's easier for them. They live around >> it every day and have access to real artefacts and the research source >> materials. >> >> American historical renenactment in the western US is very small when >> compared to the same in the eastern US. Why? In the eastern US they live >> around it, have easier access to artifacts and source materials. For >> example the library at San Diego State University is replendena twith >> research on Meso America but nearly devoid of research on 17th-19th C North >> America. If you're a San Diegan and want to do Aztec reenactment you'd be >> in like Flynn. > >Here in California, there is much less interest in reenactment of the >American Revolutionary period, and some other periods before California >was heavily populated, than there is on the East Coast. However, I >don't think the issue is geographical proximity to information about >history. After all everyone has access to books (if nothing else via >interlibrary loan), and to airplanes if it is really necessary to study >historic buildings and artifacts. Fran Grimble But not everyone has access to interlibrary loan or airplanes to travel to the source. Many of the best resources the actual artifacts themselves and are difficult to access. Books are generally inadequate. No scale, not enough photos from enough angles, no detail photos in color AND black and white, and drawings that skip essential details, and desciptions tha are generally very inadequate. Therefore proximity plays a very important role. Another example. There is a growing group in San Diego doing 1840's San Diego (Mexican American War...). There are a lot of artifacts here from the period, artifacts that the reenactors can handle and examine. As a result they are doing a superior job. Sean Legio IX Hispana, Roman reenactment http://www.inetworld.net/~cian/legioix.html Great Western War II, February 10-17, 1998. http://emporium.turnpike.net/Z/zen/GWW2/index.html ------------------------------ roxann barber [16,68]CSuX:kull the fantasy Subject: H-COST: Kull the fantasy From: Roxann Barber Date: Wed, 03 Sep 1997 11:57:36 -0700 - -Poster: Roxann Barber I was watching a -making of Kull- and the actor stated that this was a - -period adventure- with -authentic costumes-. (This was just after showing a scene with the witch flying through flames in her wonder bra.) Eeeeeeeee........ Okay, but then they interviewed the costumer and she said it was a fantasy, phew! I can get so confused! Roxy ------------------------------ frances grimble [54,69]CSuX:errol flynn syndrome: it s real Subject: Re: H-COST: Errol Flynn Syndrome: It's real From: Frances Grimble Date: Wed, 03 Sep 1997 19:17:48 -0700 - -Poster: Frances Grimble Richards/McQuinn wrote: > > But not everyone has access to interlibrary loan or airplanes to travel to > the source. Who doesn't have access to interlibrary loan? I thought most libraries did it these days; it saves them money and storage space. And many ordinary middle-class Americans can and do afford a trip or two abroad at some point in their lives. > Many of the best resources the actual artifacts themselves and > are difficult to access. Well, since this is a costuming list I assume you're talking about clothing. Medieval and Renassiance clothes are quite rare and most are in museum collections. Some are in the US, because museums often buy, or are donated, items from abroad; they have access to an international market. However, it is hard for the general public to get access to the most rare musuem holdings (and especially, to get permission to handle them) when they are not on public display. This is probably as true for the European public as the American public. It is simply too easy to damage the clothes. However, a fair number of existing garments and fragments have been well described in books such as the Museum of London series and Janet Arnold's books, or photographed for exhibit catalogs. Many reenactors have found these books to be extremely useful, and have used them to make excellent costumes. Many reenactors have also made excellent use of art books with reproductions of period paintings. There are also published patterns, descriptions, and photos of 17th-century and later garments. Some American h-costume members who do not seem to be curators have described being allowed to examine museum holdings from the 18th century and later. It is in fact not impossible to buy them on the vintage clothing market; I own some late 18th- and early 19th-century garments. And you can see lots of Victorian and later clothes at any vintage clothing show. Since this discussion seems to be ranging over a number of historic periods, and this is a list devoted to clothing (which is easily portable), and there is quite a lot of historic clothing in American museums, and quite a lot of information published in English, and quite a lot of pictures accessible to people who speak any language, and quite a lot of reenactors who make excellent costumes . . . I really don't think your argument that you have to "be there" geographically holds water. Fran Grimble ------------------------------ ljones.us.oracle.com [57,70]CSuX:sca issues and european list members Subject: H-COST: SCA issues and European list members From: "LJONES.US.ORACLE.COM" Date: 03 Sep 97 16:24:41 -0700 - -Poster: "LJONES.US.ORACLE.COM" Oh, my two farthings! I was reviewing Henk's original post (I always go backwards when I'm behind on the list) about the SCA stuff and Drachenwald and forming his own group. Henk, perhaps we met, although I can't remember which Dutch event we attended in 1989, we were there a couple of times. It poured, and I mean absolutely bucketed, both times. Anyway, I can't remember who might have been Prince, only that I didn't make the garb! My observations regarding the SCA in Europe have been that in the past several years (in fact, since we departed in 1990) the SCA in Europe has had to depend a lot more on the natives, or non- U.S. military participants, as the reduction in forces took place. When we were still there this was quite the topic of interest and concern as local military groups dwindled to nothing. Consequently, we felt that the standards would become much higher, and we were delighted to snare local nationals who were as enthusiastic as ourselves. My experience was that many people joined the SCA while in Europe, and there were few role models to draw from. That's in fact where I joined, and resources were always very scarce. Of course, the internet was not really booming then, so this method of sharing sources and info was just not available. But getting supplies, fabric, and staples for recreation camping were terribly difficult, so we bought whatever was available. I remember going to an annual Ren Faire in Germany at one of the castles as one of the participants. Even then we were the most poorly equipped, as most of the local groups got paid for their involvement. Our camp was much less impressive, and we were not happy with plastic tarps, etc. I think our garb was perhaps better in quality, however, as many of us were of that authentic vein. The re-enactment or show groups in Europe (that I ran into at the time, mind you!!!) tended to be for pay, and so they could put funds into props, but did not seem to pay as much attention to historical accuracy. I must admit, that our camp looked much less authentic, so there are two sides to every coin or perception. It is sad for me to look back and realize that other groups were there that we could have worked with more, if we had even known they existed! Anyway, in the past several years, my impression is that there has been much more involvement in Europe in re-enactment groups in general, and also better quality re-enacting by the SCA. I think the same holds true in the U.S., as authenticity can be contagious, as well as fun. I have found it particularly interesting to be a part of this group, and see the various members pop up from different areas in Europe. I definitely appreciate the information and different slant that you folks provide, and remain somewhat jealous that I am not still there! Anyway, Henk, you might want to pop back in on the SCA there these days. Maybe they've improved, maybe not, but if you meet even one interesting and similar minded person, it might have been worth it. Keep that info coming!!!! Thanks Liz Jones Damiana Illaria d'Onde ljones@us.oracle.com ------------------------------ ljones.us.oracle.com [93,71]CSuX:cartridge pleating Subject: H-COST: Cartridge Pleating From: "LJONES.US.ORACLE.COM" Date: 03 Sep 97 15:45:50 -0700 - -Poster: "LJONES.US.ORACLE.COM" Regarding the post on Cartridge pleating below, I would add: 1) You need finished edges on both bodice and skirt. In addition, if I start with a raw edge on my skirt (as opposed to selvage), I turn it over once again, or machine it so that inside does not sport raw edges, either. 2)I have always laid my fabric down and marked it with chalk. I use 1 1/2 inch intervals, which translate into 3/4 inch pleats. This tends to be my average, although I have done bigger and smaller ones depending on the look I want. My area of focus is typically around 1450-1600, and this seems to suit me fine. 3)I have never needed multiple bands on running stitches as described below, but I always use carpet/buttonhole twist for the gathering. I typically go in and out at about 1/2" below the fold. 4)I try and estimate the length of carpet thread needed to draw the gathers together. It should be a bit more than the bodice waistline (or whatever the other piece is). You should allow about six inches for tying off, and maneuvering, but more is really not needed, and makes the pleats move too much in the process. 5) Once you have it gathered and tied off at both ends, count the number of pleats you have. Arrange them proportionately. Occasionally I want more at the back, for example, but most often I want them spaced around evenly. Then start dividing them into smaller segments. For example, if you have 80 total pleats, mark at 40,a nd pin that part to the center of the other piece. The divide in half, and mark at 20, and at the quarter marks of the bodice. Then once again. I find that working with pleat areas of no more than ten is easiest, otherwise I start shifting and adjusting all over the place. You do need to pay attention as to whether it should be pinned between pleats or on a specific pleat number. After a few reps this can catch up with you (or it does with me) 6)I used to sew the edges together using a whip stitch. Maybe it was just me, but it would never stay well, and my stitches were always visible. I was catching a very small part of both edges, probably no more than one quarter inch. However, I got annoyed one day and started butting 1/4" of each side together as a real "seam", and then sewing that using a running stick and some back stitching every inch or so. I have found that this works much better for me, and the stitches do not seem to stretch out. I cannot profess to seeing this up close in a period garment, so I am only passing on my own experience. 7) I have seen a dramatically different method used by friends that have taken professional tailoring courses. A friend of mine actually pleated the top and bottom of the pleat onto a waistband on the outside. So instead of just catching the top of the seam. The whole pleat was secured, and stuck out much more. I tend to trust that she learned this method somewhere, and it did create quite a sturdy protruding set of pleats. As I had always though my way was "the only way", this led me to question what other ways might be used, and for what purpose. I never asked my friend but your question reminded me. Does anyone else out there know of this method, and the reasons or timeframes one or the other might be used? 8) I often leave my draw thread in the garment. This year I did three dresses, pink, red and dark green, and used dark blue carpet thread for the drawstring part. It's still in all, and helps to keep the pleats from popping out all over. This can happen when they are very tightly spaced, or from rather bulky fabric. I just tend to leave it in without worrying or wondering about it. Hope this helps Liz Jones Maestra Damiana Illaria d'Onde (SCA) ljones@us.oracle.com - ----------------------------- Last post: [43,72]CSuX:to each his/her own.. Subject: H-COST: To each his/her own.. From: "Lisa Boyce" Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 21:54:23 -0500 - -Poster: "Lisa Boyce" I joined the SCA when I was 20 (in 1976), and found it very unaccomodating to sit in the Texas underbrush in a hot linen dress in July without any bugspray because that was from the world of 'mundanes' and not allowed. I quickly bailed, having decided I was simply too wimpy for the SCA. I admire anyone who has the spunk, wit, and determination to put up with all sorts of discomforts and inconveniences just so they can, for a brief time, experience a little of the history that fascinates them, whatever or whenever that may be. Personally, I don't want to live it. I do enjoy recreating from various eras in textiles what I think are truly beautiful and occasionally winsome garments. If a person has to have a truly 'authentic' costume, to the best of his/her ability in order to be happy with it, then they should seek that. If, at a Renfaire, they decide to portray 'Giselle, the wood nymph' and are comfortable with the fact that portray a fictional being, they should do that. If (like me) they are not 'willowy' and are totally self-conscious, then they should stick to what works for them.(Hello Levi's~and~I see tie-dye is back). The ONLY place I see room for criticism is within the realm of Hollywood, et al, where the portrayal is billed as 'authentic'. I think historians and costumers should work together and strive for accuracy, because they have the funding to do it properly, and in most cases, are raking money 'hanover fist' on the 'authentic' billing. Can we all say 'Emma Thompson'? Just my .02 (plink,plink).. Astrid ------------------------------ julie adams [23,73]CSuX:errol flynn syndrome: it s real Subject: Re: H-COST: Errol Flynn Syndrome: It's real From: Julie Adams Date: Wed, 03 Sep 1997 21:22:31 -0700 - -Poster: Julie Adams >Also, I've seen several UK and European American reenactors and in my >opinion many suffer from "John Wayne Syndrome". The "Fritz's" from Germany used to come out annually for the "End of Trails" Single Action Society shoot (and may still). They have always worn impeccable costumes and accessories. For example, "Small Glasses Fritz" has a beaded brain tan leather frock I could just kill for! While chatting one day, he pulled a small silver cigarette case from a pocket, pulled out a hand-rolled cigarette and used a flint and steel to light some chaff to light the cigarette. He did this without skipping a beat, more natural than many American reenactor's I've seen. Everything down to the last detail is correct in an environment that does not have much better standards than an "attempt" at costume of the Old West. My $.02 about the only American West reenactors I've met from Europe. - - Julie ------------------------------ penny e. ladnier [93,74]CSuX:film and costume Subject: H-COST: Film and costume From: "Penny E. Ladnier" Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 01:15:03 -0400 - -Poster: "Penny E. Ladnier" List... I promised an overview of my Hollywood Genres class from the past summer so here it is: >From my observations of the genres studied: The best genre closest to period accuracy in costume: The screwball comedies or present day (meaning at the time of filming) Ex. "Bringing up Baby". I also saw this in a "B" science fiction movie shot in the mid-1950's. I can't recall the name of the film but the costumes were the same that I studied from VCU's costume collection last Spring. For an example of the costumes I studied, check my web page at www.geocities.com/FashionAvenue/1899 The gangster genre had some good costumes from the 1930's. I found the name of that science fiction film, "The Day the World Ended", As far as my study of the Western genre costumes, "Lonesome Dove" (costume watched them over and over and over. I did pay close attention to their costumes especially after reading an excellant article on cowboy's costume in 1997 "Dress". The article is called "The Cowboy: Real and Imagined" by Laurel E. Wilson. I highly recommend the article. The viewpoint of my instructor and several articles in my textbook, "Film Genre Reader II" was that costumes are part of iconography of a film. The parts of the iconography are the costumes, landscape, soundtrack (music), & transportation. Certain genre films heavily depend on a certain look to fit into the genre. Some of these are: Westerns, gangster, historical/epic, and romance. When you think of these genre, a costume comes directly to your mind. More money is distributed for costuming these types of film. I saved a quote from my textbook for you all from an article called, "Surge and Splendor: A Phenomenlogy of the Historical Epic" by Vivian Sobchack: The Hollywood epic also defines History as occuring to music-pervasive symphonic music underscoring every moment by overscoring it. And it evokes spectacular, fanastic costumes-particularly gold lame ones with underwire bras. Indeed, the Hollywood epic shows us that people-most particularly, the women- living History almost always wore extravangant clothes and spent a good deal of History changing them. Although no one in the audience is inclined to such accountability, we are nonetheless told that Linda Darnell in "Forever Amber" (Otto Preminger, 1947) wears "eighteen evening gowns, twenty daytime dresses, three negligees, and a wedding gown as part of an effort to recreate the seventeenth century England of King Charles II." Or that "The Prodigal" (Richard Thorpe, 1955), starring Lana Turner, "had 4,000 costumes," with "292 costume changes for the principals alone"- one of the latter, according to MGM sources, involving apparel made for Turner "entirely of seeds pearls, thousands of which were handsewn." One interesting question, I keep asking my instructor. Why was there such a large shift in the film industry to have more historically correct films after 1970? This is also when designers started trying to achieve more period correct costumes. After many times of asking this question he answered, "Movies are influenced by world events like any other medium. Think of what was going on at the time...Vietnam War, people not trusting the government or President. People demanded the truth, even in film." Think of the films of the sevenities that won Oscars. In conclusion, for the past 27 years we have been demanding the truth, even in costume. Film is going through an evolution, gee, it's only one hundred years old. Theatre has been around a lot longer and then we can't see the detailing of the costumes. When watching film maybe we should remember, at least we can see the details and how the costumes moves, closely. Maybe, if we want period accuracy, we should look at the current day films for that time period. Film may not be the best medium for costume but we sure do love to look at it. Later...Penny Penny E. Dunlap Ladnier, s0peladn@erols.com Historic Costume Research Web Page http://www.geocities.com/FashionAvenue/1899 member: Costume Society of America American Fashion Council Virginia Commonwealth University Alumni (finally!) ------------------------------ End of h-costume-digest V1 #61 ****************************** h-costume-digest-approval@world.std.com (h-costume-digest)[26,75]CSuX:h-costume-digest v1 #62 Subject: h-costume-digest V1 #62 From: h-costume-digest-approval@world.std.com (h-costume-digest) Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 13:39:59 -0400 (EDT) h-costume-digest Thursday, September 4 1997 Volume 01 : Number 062 In this issue: Re: H-COST: Errol Flynn Syndrome: It's real Re: H-COST: linen? Re: H-COST: Dates H-COST: Re: Some thoughts on History. H-COST: PLS READ Re: H-COST: Dates H-COST: intro H-COST: Fur cloak linings?? Re: H-COST: linen? H-COST: Another little question H-COST: Re: linens, silks and a query H-COST: Re: Dates (long) Re: H-COST: ILL / EDUCATION / TOES H-COST: h-cost: Claidhmore request Re: H-COST: Errol Flynn Syndrome: It's real H-COST: silk and linen H-COST: Re: h-costume-digest V1 #61 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- sara j. davitt [31,76]CSuX:errol flynn syndrome: it s real Subject: Re: H-COST: Errol Flynn Syndrome: It's real From: "Sara J. Davitt" Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 01:55:09 -0500 (CDT) - -Poster: "Sara J. Davitt" > > > > But not everyone has access to interlibrary loan or airplanes to travel to > > the source. > > Who doesn't have access to interlibrary loan? I thought most libraries > did it these days; it saves them money and storage space. And many > ordinary middle-class Americans can and do afford a trip or two abroad > at some point in their lives. Here's what I have found. These excuses/reasons and more are really ways to cover up lack of initiative... Not that that is a bad thing, for the person involved, but it is for the image of the group as a whole. You can make costumes esp medieval/renn easily, and cheaply, with a little shopping around a nd a smidge of effort. BUT people have jobs, and 'real-life' or "too much-not-quite-so-real-life" to deal with, so the costume falls to a lower prioity level (until the night before.(we've all done that.. :-) It's not interlibrary loan, or the lack of second-hand, or that no-one has a sewing machine...It's just taking the time out and deciding that this is omething you want to do, and going out and doing it... Funny how that applies to life in general anyway... Take Care everyone! Sarahj ------------------------------ henk t jong [34,77]CSuX:linen? Subject: Re: H-COST: linen? From: "Henk 't Jong" Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 12:05:40 +0200 - -Poster: "Henk 't Jong" Henk & Pauline 't Jong tScapreel Medieval Advisors Dordrecht, Netherlands Hi List, Roxy wrote: > Henk, how does the fabric dry? I would worry about storing that slightly > damp fabric all folded up. Or is the pressure great enough to -wring- > the water out? The linen has te be, what we call here, 'ironing-dry' and a bit more, which is not completely, but very nearly dry. In some way this last bit of damp, dissappears when mangling, but is doesn't come out as drops of water; there's just too little of it left. The mangled stuff is not put directly in the cupboard or clothpress anyway, but is left to breath a bit. residue. Can anybody tell me what herbs these could have been? > > This is great, sounds like one could actually make a homemade mangle and > learn to use it. They're easy to make and easy to use. Bye Henk ------------------------------ henk t jong [92,78]CSuX:dates Subject: Re: H-COST: Dates From: "Henk 't Jong" Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 19:11:14 +0200 - -Poster: "Henk 't Jong" Henk & Pauline 't Jong tScapreel Medieval Advisors Dordrecht, Netherlands Hello all, Fran wrote: > I think you're making some pretty sweeping generalizations about > Americans. Not everybody in the US has the same education, assumptions, > etc. > Yes I did, and I'm not taking them back... A lot of Europeans know a lot less about their own middle ages than most Americans I meet or write with on this list. So what should I say and how should I say it... Can't anybody recognise a tongue in cheek when they see one? Or do I have to place :-) :-) :-) around everything I write? > I don't know about reenactment in other countries, but I'm not sure you > quite understand what it is about here. It's not as if people are > unaware of the more grotty aspects of the Middle Ages. So it's between grotty and the SCA-nobility, is it? Doesn't anybody realise that there were more simple, common, hardworking people living in decently ordered towns and villages who had nothing or very little to do with either lepers and the plague, or fine lords and ladies? Wake up America (Oh boy, have I done it now: toes all over the place are burning red from being tread on...)! It's just that > they would rather not reenact them. Even those who are most fervent in > pursuit of authentic historic costume do not want their appearance to be > authentic in terms of dentistry, hygiene, etc. However, they are > perfectly aware they are making these choices. I should say so... But to inform you: most medieval people had pretty good teeth, because they did not eat sugar, but did eat a lot of fibrous food (archeological evidence everywhere) and most medieval people took a bath every week, especially in summer. Some bathed even more. There were between the founding of most cities and the end of the middle ages public bathhouses in everyone of them (see the several city law books, which show rules and regulations for them or the ancient steeetnames pointing to their excistence). > > This is also true for other periods. The glamorous image of the 1930s > in America presented by the local Art Deco Society is from Hollywood, > not the average person's life. It is not the 1930s presented in either > American history courses or as told to me by my parents, whose families > were quite poor during this period. I assume all this evidence is also > quite available to Art Deco Society members. But who wants to reenact > farmers forced off their land by droughts, children in orphanages > because their relatives could not support them, etc.? > But why not? You do in films (Grapes of Wrath, Pennies from Heaven, etc)! It is still in the early stages, but some re-eneactment clubs are at the present focussing more on the common men and women of the middle ages and the things they did and experienced. It can be very rewarding doing that, because it's much closer to most of the lives of the re-enactors themselves and gathers a lot of interest from spectators as well, because they can relate to this life much better than to tournaments or court balls. We should know, we've been doing it since 1990. > When all is said and done, no reenactment group is or intends to be an > exact recreation of the period reenacted. Depends on what you mean by 'exact'. If you want to know what > Americans really are able to know about the history of the Middle Ages, > I suggest reading books by professional American historians. As if I haven't, and some good ones too (at the present I'm looking for the 1929 book by H.S. Lucas; The Low Countries and the Hundred Years War, published in Ann Arbor!!! I've read it in part in a Library, but I want to own it. I'm sorry, I can't help it.). What I was struggling to say was: we in the Netherlands, because we are such a small country, who are taught to read and speak reasonable German, English and French, have a lot more scope in reading books on the period than people who only have a rudimentary foreign language education and are thus forced to read only English books, because scientific foreign books are beyond them. There... I'm pussyfooting now, to avoid more long toes... No hard feelings, Bye, Henk ------------------------------ henk t jong [190,79]CSuX:some thoughts on history. Subject: H-COST: Re: Some thoughts on History. From: "Henk 't Jong" Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 11:55:36 +0200 - -Poster: "Henk 't Jong" Henk & Pauline 't Jong tScapreel Medieval Advisors Dordrecht, Netherlands Hi List, Vicki wrote: > Thank you, Fran Grimble, for an intelligent defense of an idea all too widespread > concerning the relations of Americans to the past. > > I've been studying art history in Europe for several years now and have noticed, > that at least here in France, and in relation to Americans, that history becomes > almost an elitist property. The focus of this is "The Monument", as if all history is > and can only be contained therein. "The Monument" equals history and if you > don't have The Monument, well, you have no history. You certainly can't > appreciate what you don't have. You can't really even conceive of it. At best you > can only conceive of Hollywood. As if that's no Monument. To movie-history, but still... > > This doesn't take into consideration that history is more than large immobile > structures. I rest my case. Concerning Hollywood as a Monument, that is. Think of American museums collecting artefacts of lesser interest to > their European counterparts and therefore having a corpus of these artefacts that > can produce a movement of academic reenactment that precedes what's going on > in Europe. A programme of France Culture, for example, traced the rebirth of > interest in ancient music to the collection of early instruments gathered in Boston, > which gave birth the the Boston Camerata. They found their audience, and the rest, > as they say, is history. And it happened a long time ago. European Historic Museums don't behave like that anymore, at least not in England and the Netherlands. > > But History is also more than artefacts. Georges Duby in his very last essays > dicusses this positivist approach to the study of history and is wary. For him, the > myths and dreams of a given moment in time are as, if not more, significant than > any "document" of whatever unfallible origin. If it is more difficult to trace a floor > plan of a dream than of, say, an outhouse I believe that it is also more rewarding, > and this given the recent interesting thread on privies. I disagree with you and George Duby as I think it is an elitist view of history to consider thoughts and dreams of and for the elite more important than the archeology of everyday life. I thought we had left that behind with 'Annales', of which I seem to remember Duby was a contributor (for the rests on a lot of sub-disciplines. Research in archives and libraries, comparing archeological finds internationally, practising experimental archaeology, analysing literature of all kinds, studying costume and artifacts, buildings and soils, all is part of the study of history. I thought we had long lost the image of the lonely professor in his Ivory Tower, but it seems Duby in his last years succumbed to the lure of public acclaim. It's a pity, because he has done some very good work on researching the 10-12th c in France. > And America is a direct result of the European dreams of the middle ages. How > can we understand what happened here with Christopher Columbus without > understanding the crusades in all their aspects-economic as well as religious? You lost me here. > The cowboy roaming alone on horseback, seeking not gold (he's no forty-niner, > though he may meet one along the way) Only in 1849, he would. but the adventure that heals the heart in > an arid land is a direct and legitimate heir of the knights of the Quete del San > Graal roaming alone in the wasteland for treasures beyond jewels, (for more on > this look into Umberto Eco). O come on! To compare cowboys with Arthurian romance figures goes a bit too far. Romantic, my foot! You can't compare non-existing questing Graal knights to the grinding trek of riders accompanying herds of cattle from the south to the meat markets of the North-East (I know I'm going to get a lot of flac about this). There is a difference. Don't forget the Graal stories were pretty 'elitist' ( in the sense of being meant to be told to sophisticated audiences) fairy tales, among other things, used for political propaganda. > > Why is an American less capable than a European to grasp these things that create > a mind, a heart? Well put (see the Merchant of Venice, act III, scene 1).There's hardly any difference between the two, only a difference in upbringing, but this gets less and less. Perhaps we can find the ancestor of the American phenomenon of > the SCA or the Ren Faire --with all that they can have of more fantasy than > authenticity-- not in an academic society but in say the chapters the Order of the > Golden Fleece and the delirious entremets of Phillippe le Bon. Dutchman > Huizinga also found them to be of doubtful taste. I agree with this. Burgundy offered at some times and some places scenes that are readily picked up by SCA and Europeans alike. But here also: don't forget that these chapters and banquets were meant for a very small upper-layer of society, and that 99 % of the populace in the Burgundian countires had no part in them and lived their owen life. Huizinga was a very good romantic writer with a lot of knowledge of the period, available at his time (his Magnum Opus, The Waning of the Middle Ages, was written in 1919!), but his way of practising history is dated and his conclusions fit to be overhauled, as they have been. And who are we to judge the taste of the Burgundian court? > > The only reenactmeent groups that I know of in France for the middle ages have > been so genuinely suspected of ill-doings as to be watched by the police. ???What have they been doing? I don't > know of any living history group at all, and I have looked. So much for being > passionately interested in History. > > Working in a monument of the highest historical significance --La Sainte > Chapelle-- with tourists of all nationalities form South African to Israeli I can't say > that I've noticed in the Europeans more depth of understanding for what they see > in front of them. In fact they are often less interested because they are so inured to > the idea of "The Monument. " Sadly, where one does find a particular interest, one > often has but to scratch the surface to find a nationalism hinding behind it. > That's what I find too and I blame (for a large part) education, which raises kids to be chauvinistic citizens instead of becoming critical and curious world-inhabitants. > And Languages? Surely in the Netherlands but in France? Working in a place that > needs multilingual folk, I don't know how many of my colleagues could pick up a > work in something other than French and get much out of it. It's a pity. > > Thank you for letting me vent a bit on a subject I obviously bear close to the heart. > I must return now to my altarpieces if I hope to defend my thesis next month. > I hold history and the study of it close to mine as well, and tend to get emotional about it. Nothing of the above is meant as personal attacks, but I want to set things straight (of course only as far as I can see, but aren't we all guilty of that?), provoke original thought as opposed to blind imitation of authority and try to share viewpoints, which are maybe different from the mainstream of historic studies, with anybody who wants to. Regards to you too and success with your thesis, Henk ------------------------------ eliz@world.std.com (elizabeth lear)[38,80]CSuX:pls read Subject: H-COST: PLS READ From: eliz@world.std.com (Elizabeth Lear) Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 06:41:18 -0400 - -Poster: eliz@world.std.com (Elizabeth Lear) Hi, your friendly neighborhood list admin here. There are at least two meta-conversations that have left the charter of the group and shouldn't be continued. Let's please get back to topics appropriate to the list. I quote from the list charter, sent to all new subscribers when they join: This list concentrates on re-creating period costume, from the Bronze age to the mid-20th Century. Its emphasis is on accurate historical reproduction of clothing, historical techniques for garment construction, as well as the application of those techniques in modern clothing design. Other topics appropriate for discussion include adapting historical clothing for the modern figure, clothing evolution, theatrical costumes, patterns, materials, books, and sources for supplies. Shows, museums, galleries and publications suitable for education or inspiration, training opportunities available through schools and workshops, design and motivational issues, collective group projects, and exchanges of materials are all also of interest to this list. Wig making, accessory and makeup issues, where pertinent to the overall design of the costume, are also acceptable topics. ** Advertisements or announcements for historical costumed events are ** allowed, but general discussions regarding the groups or organizations ** that sponsor costumed events is discouraged. Thanks. ...eliz ------------------------------ judy gerjuoy [20,81]CSuX:dates Subject: Re: H-COST: Dates From: Judy Gerjuoy Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 07:41:17 -0400 (EDT) - -Poster: Judy Gerjuoy Just one comment. While I am in the SCA - and have been for more years than I care to admit, the type of costuming I do and the type of research in general I am interested in, is middle class. Not high court, not the richest and the bestest, but rather everyday middel class people. Judy/Jaelle jaelle@access.digex.net If the world were merely seductive, that would be easy. If it were merely challenging, that would be no problem. But I arise in the morning torn between a desire to improve the world, and a desire to enjoy the world. This makes it hard to plan the day. - E. B. White ------------------------------ kelly rinne [26,82]CSuX:intro Subject: H-COST: intro From: KELLY RINNE Date: Thu, 04 Sep 1997 08:21:30 -0500 - -Poster: KELLY RINNE I figured it's time to do an official introduction of myself to the list. The name is Kelly, and I have been lurking/posting off and on for about 4 years. At this point in time, I have an undergrad degree in Art/Art History, and a graduate degree in Sceneic/Costume Design for Opera. I am also a decently trained opera singer (lyric Mezzo) who currently chooses not to perform. My day job is currently as the Asst Director of Sales & Marketing for a Graphics Company in Chicago. Prior to that, I earned my living as a designer, traveling free-lance throughout the US, working for various different companies in many different positions, primarily as a designer, but one that always was involved in construction in some way. I have taught design, construction and structure and analysis of the drama. At present, I am taking a break from the "biz" to pay off graduate school, but keep my avocation alive through this newsgroup. Please keep up the wonderful informative effort, and any other theatrical costumers who want to trade stories, swap advice, etc., feel free to contact me. Kel ------------------------------ john and/or barbara bailey [38,83]CSuX:fur cloak linings?? Subject: H-COST: Fur cloak linings?? From: John and/or Barbara Bailey Date: Thu, 04 Sep 1997 09:31:23 -0500 - -Poster: John and/or Barbara Bailey (Same question posted to alt.history.costuming under the same subject. Replies to either mailing list or newgroup greatly appreciated. TIA) Does anyone out there have references or have any of you seen actual historical cloaks with a fur lining? I'm most interested in the period 1250 AD to about 1400 AD (western Europe.) Were furs used as lining for warmth, or were they already enough of a status symbol that they were put on the outside of the cloak or used as trim? If they were used as linings, how did the pelt's direction run? Down from a shoulder seam in both front and back? All in one direction in long strips (down in front, up in back or vice versa)? Radiating out from the neckline all around? Any which way? Some other pattern? At what point in time (or approximate status level) would the skins have been trimmed to use only the heavier back and side fur, eliminating the thinner, differently colored belly fur? Did this trimming tend to make the working pieces into longish rectangles, rather than squarish blocks? Would this affect the pattern the pelts were joined in? At this point, even speculation (from incomplete sources) would help some. All I've been able to find is modern patterns. Thanks Barbara ------------------------------ karren schaeffer [13,84]CSuX:linen? Subject: Re: H-COST: linen? From: Karren Schaeffer Date: Thu, 04 Sep 1997 08:03:18 -0700 - -Poster: Karren Schaeffer Hi all, According to my books on caring for old household linen after it was properly mangled, the herbs used to "sweeten" linens were lavendar and rosemary, but not together. Karren ------------------------------ elizabeth higgins [41,85]CSuX:another little question Subject: H-COST: Another little question From: Elizabeth Higgins Date: Thu, 04 Sep 1997 15:53:40 +0100 - -Poster: Elizabeth Higgins As most of you will have realised from the very few postings I've made to this list, I'm new to all this so please cut me a little slack. Let me give you a little of my background, which may help to understand where I am coming from. I am an electronics engineer, which I suppose makes me a rarity in Europe where the vast majority are male. Most of my life until recently was concentrated on my job, which entailed a lot of travelling (I cover the whole of Europe, Africa, the Middle East and India) and had very little time for hobbies. Recently I was promoted and as a result I now spend most of my time in the UK office with just a little time travelling, which is allowing me to get involved in my own interests. I have always dreamed of being a Victorian lady since the clothing of that period fascinates me to the point of distraction. Unfortunately I cannot make my own clothes since I have only got one arm that works (the left) as a result of a highway smash in 1984. All my collection of books etc. on the subject of costume dissapeared with my spouse in 1982 and my job had necessitated frequent moves, thus discouraging collecting personal items. Now I want to get a complete reproduction outfit made but there are one or two questions I need answering. So I propose to use your knowledge (which so far looks to be phenominally large) to help me, and in the process I shall learn more myself. Does anyone object to this? Now the simple question I have is, how many petticoats did a woman of the 1880's wear? So far the outfit I am having made has the bustle, one petticoat, an under- skirt and then the dress draped over the under-skirt. Should there be more petticoats? Lissa PS I use that diminutive because I hate Liz. Be warned!!!! ------------------------------ dtjacobson@aol.com[20,86]CSuX:linens, silks and a query Subject: H-COST: Re: linens, silks and a query From: DTJacobson@aol.com Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 11:20:37 -0400 (EDT) - -Poster: DTJacobson@aol.com In H-Costume Digest #60 Grace wrote: <> Try contacting Interweave Press (the publisher of _Handwoven_). Their website is at: http://www.interweave.com Dawn DTJacobson@aol.com ------------------------------ dtjacobson@aol.com[94,87]CSuX:dates (long) Subject: H-COST: Re: Dates (long) From: DTJacobson@aol.com Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 11:21:09 -0400 (EDT) - -Poster: DTJacobson@aol.com In H-Costume Digest #60, Henk wrote: <> This may be due to proximity rather than close association. If I remember correctly, the SCA was originally founded by a small group of historians and students in the area of the University of California, Berkeley campus; the first Northern Faire was held in 1966 in Marin County, about 35 minutes from Berkeley. <<>And you are absolutely right about the quality of some SCA recreation. It varies from the sublime to the ridiculous. < I would not say that. I think you Americans suffer from the Erroll Flynn syndrome, which states that the middle ages were like the movies (1926-Braveheart) that are supposed to take place in them. This in it's turn goes back to the romantic novellists of the early 19th c and their illustrators or other artists who were inspired by Ivanhoe, The Hunchback, etc. This influence was felt all over the western world (and a lot of the rest, as well) and became ingrained in everybody's mind. We're just lucky to be nearer to the place where the real European middle ages took place, so that we are able to see monuments dating back to the time, are close to sites dug up dating to before 1500 AD, have museums where one can see artifacts pretty easily and can buy books about the period in all European languages, while you are mostly only able to get and to read the English ones, however good they are. In the mean time we also have a hell of a time getting people to leave their opinions and prejudices about the middle ages behind.>> Uh, not to pick nits, but actually we're a pretty intellectually and historically aware bunch of people over here on this side of the pond. The group I "run with" is presently concentrating on the religious military orders of the 13th century; our research comes from histories, archeological reports, contemporary diaries, and studying as many paintings, woodcuts, and photographs of effigy statuary as possible. Our focus covers not only the appropriate attire, hair, armor, and arms of the period, but includes campaign/field living arrangements, tack and horse equipment, cooking, amusements, philosophy, and the world view of that time. It is a tremendous help that many very fine books have been translated to English in the past 15 years; those that aren't can still be read, as there are people in our little band that are fluent in French, German, Dutch, Italian and Spanish (and Swedish, but only if it pertains to weaving ). A number of people have commented on the different levels of authenticity (there! I finally wrote it!) in the SCA, at the Renaissance Faires, and in other reenactment groups. All groups vary, but my own observation has been thus: Elite reenactment organizations (Renaissance Military Society, General Miles Marching and Chowder Society): Usually small (under 100 members), and frequently considered to be "elitist snobs" and "authenticity nazis." Reenactment organizations focusing on specific periods (Brigade of the American Revolution, National Civil War Association): Larger organizations, but with very specific rules on dress, behavior, etc. Give lots of guidance and foster improving authenticity through example. Renaissance Faires (RPFN, RPFS): Can run the gamut, depending on ownership of the faire (not all are owned by Renaissance Pleasure Faires, Inc.), the experience of the participants, and the knowledge and experience of the costume mistress of any given fair. Even individual guilds can vary--some are relatively strict with regard to dress while others are more open to interpretation. Reenactment organizations focusing on broad periods (SCA, ECS, Adria): Again, these run the gamut from amazing to awful, and it can vary depending on the age and experience of the participants, the leadership offered by the local baron or baroness, and the general attitude of the organization. It seems that in this "pecking order" each refers to those above them as "authenticity freaks" while those higher up refer to the less historically accurate as "farbs." At times, this rivalry has been good-natured; right now, a number of people very active in the SCA are also working in the same guild as my husband at RPFN, and everything is just fine. OTOH, I and a number of people have also seen how bitter this rivalry can be--rumor campaigns are started and vicious lies are spread about this person or that simply because they take the time and trouble to research and build an historically accurate garment, and people are threatened with banishment for belonging to other "competing" reenactment groups. My own attitude is: If you're that threatened by me, perhaps we shouldn't play together anymore. Thank you for letting me vent. I will now climb down off my soapbox and go to Sewing Circle. 8-D Dawn DTJacobson@aol.com ------------------------------ mhamilto@pop.service.ohio-state.edu (marsha hamilton)[71,88]CSuX:ill / education / toes Subject: Re: H-COST: ILL / EDUCATION / TOES From: mhamilto@pop.service.ohio-state.edu (Marsha Hamilton) Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 11:36:25 -0400 - -Poster: mhamilto@pop.service.ohio-state.edu (Marsha Hamilton) >> My point..is not to disparage university librarians (who do an >> excellent job with the limited resources they have)...Instead, it is to >> point out that the general public does have a bad case of "Errol >> Flynn Syndrome"..(I think they're probably too busy being soccer moms.... ILL. As a librarian (and former soccer mom), I HAD to reply. We DO cover an immense universe of knowledge (in many languages) with limited resources. It is atypical for a library to have ONLY outdated texts. However, most libraries in the U.S. have interlibrary loan. OCLC and RLIN list millions of titles available in tens of thousands of libraries internationally. Most libraries' biggest problem is a minority of folks stealing books, especially newer and heavily illustrated ones. EDUCATION. In my travels abroad, well educated British and Europeans do seem to have a better education in grammar, rhetoric, history, philosophy, languages, the classics, etc. than Americans. Different educational systems produce different results. But I don't remember the "average" person abroad being that well educated, although the average Dutch person's language skills impressed me greatly. IMHO many "average" Americans are strong in problem-solving, invention, arts & crafts, are very curious, independent, and self-reliant. And remember, Americans pay for higher education themselves, outright or through loans, grants, work/study, etc. whereas many countries subsidize their students. I was surprised while in the U.K. to see people hire tradesmen to do minor jobs, repairs, etc. that many Americans, including women, know how to do themselves. When in hospital (U.K.), my physician was surprised at my medical knowledge and jargon, which seemed atypical to him. It's not uncommon here. I'll refrain from discussing dentistry, orthodontia, or plumbing. Americans since the 17th century have had an inferiority complex about our education and high culture compared to Europe. (Henk, that's why those toes are so sore.) From my travels in the U.S., Europe and Middle East, I don't think it's justified. I knew more about some things, less about others. Every culture values some forms of knowledge more highly than others and defines a "well-educated" person differently. From my experience, we are DEFINITELY different. My belief in diversity tells me this is a good thing. (But it does result in unintentional humor.) Most of us work long hours and are tired out. OK, so it is too easy to veg out in from of tv after a hard day. But I see nothing wrong with taking your child to soccer, piano lessons, dance class or anything else. This is our lives, not a contest to see who can achieve the most. DISTANCES. It never sunk in how spread out the US is until I went to Europe. Those folks are really close together! If I could hop on a train and be in another COUNTRY in an hour, I'd do it. I have to drive 90 minutes on freeways (no train) to get to the next largest city. It is useful to see things first hand. I was shocked when I did an event at Plimoth Plantation (1 1/2 day drive) at how small the block house (fort) was. During the muster (exact number as original), I was overwhelmed by how few men had been there, why they must have felt so threatened and overwhelmed by the wilderness; how small their ship was; how many people slept in each house...I've read it before but I never LIVED it before. It was worth it. Marsha [Trying not to dither endlessly.] ------------------------------ lee & bill [44,89]CSuX:claidhmore request Subject: H-COST: h-cost: Claidhmore request From: Lee & Bill Date: Thu, 04 Sep 1997 08:48:35 -0700 - -Poster: Lee & Bill Hi, are there any weapons experts on h-costume? a friend from another group is looking for information on claidhmores. If you can help, please e-mail her directly. Thanks, Lee > ********* > Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 17:28:43 +0000 > From: Susan Gordon > Subject: claidhmores > > I have a feeling I might have to go find the Bloody Clan pages to > get the answers to this one, but I'll multi-post it until I find > a weapons expert! > > Now here is my image of a claidhmore, and I'm hoping the more > knowledgable in ancient weapons will give me a more accurate > concrete vision: > > The blade is 5ft in length, double edged and thick in the center. > It needs to wielded with 2 > hands, preferrably raising it from behind the right shoulder and > forcing one's entire body thrust into it. > > The hilt is about 4" thick, 8" long. > > (all of this wrong so far? I've only researched through drawings > and gaming) > > questions: > How would one travel with this weapon? > Would it need to sheathed over the shoulder? > What would be the most substantial material to create it from, > volcanic rock? > > All usable information is greatly appreciated. > Please forgive my ignorance. > Susan Gordon > suzielle@lava.net ------------------------------ r.l. shep [35,90]CSuX:errol flynn syndrome: it s real Subject: Re: H-COST: Errol Flynn Syndrome: It's real From: "R.L. Shep" Date: Thu, 04 Sep 1997 09:04:52 +0100 - -Poster: "R.L. Shep" R.L. Shep wrote: > > Gail DeCamp wrote: > > > > -Poster: Gail DeCamp > > > > Hi everybody, > > > > >I think you're making some pretty sweeping generalizations about > > >Americans. Not everybody in the US has the same education, assumptions, > > >etc. > > > > > >When all is said and done, no reenactment group is or intends to be an > > >exact recreation of the period reenacted. If you want to know what > > >Americans really are able to know about the history of the Middle Ages, > > >I suggest reading books by professional American historians. > > > > having lived in Europe (England , France, and Italy) for long periods of > time I found that many Europeans did not have a sense of the Middle Ages > at all - and let's face it, it is their history, not American history. > > There are dense people everywhere (the U.S., Holland, etc.) - otherwise > why would American TV be so popular in other countries??? There are > also very knowledgable people all over the place. Given our population > (250 million)and background (mixed and often recent)I don't think we do > all that badly when all is said and done. > > ~!~ R.L. Shep ------------------------------ gaelscot@aol.com[27,91]CSuX:silk and linen Subject: H-COST: silk and linen From: Gaelscot@aol.com Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 13:33:04 -0400 (EDT) - -Poster: Gaelscot@aol.com Hello, wise list people! I have a question about washing silk. Months ago, I remember people recommending rinsing silk with vinegar. At least I think I do. Would someone please remind me of why to do this, and how much to use? I bought some beautiful black and gold silk brocade last year, and am now finally going to use it. It is QUITE stiff and I want it to drape, so I'll be washing it. Is Ivory Snow or Dreft okay to use? I am very nervous, never having sewn with anything this expensive before... I need a special machine needle, don't I? Can I use regular thread? As far as the linen discussion goes... a few years ago I saw a gorgeous Korean dress at the Cincinnati Art Museum. It was made of white linen that looked very stiff and papery, kind of like crepe paper. It was VERY white. According to the exhibit tag, these dresses were (are?) washed in the river and pounded between stones to "iron" them. Not exactly something I want to replicate! But I sure would love a non-lethal, non-heated "mangle" after reading about them here! Anything to get out of ironing linen. Gail Finke ------------------------------ gail decamp [34,92]CSuX:h-costume-digest v1 #61 Subject: H-COST: Re: h-costume-digest V1 #61 From: Gail DeCamp Date: Thu, 4 Sep 97 10:13:15 -0000 - -Poster: Gail DeCamp Hiya, >(Oh and about "soccer moms"... In my opinion mind you.... what a slap in >the face to women and men who stay home to raise children.) Oh, dear. I certainly don't mean to slam anyone who stays home to raise children, and I'm very sorry if my comment came off that way. What I meant by "soccer mom" was the definition from a pre-US-election Newsweek last year: A mom who's trying to raise kids, work at a fulltime job, and keep a house. (Any one of those activities would take most of my waking hours; I don't know how they do it, but I certainly do understand that a "soccer mom" would not have the time to put serious research into living history, and that was my point.) In the meantime, it sounds like the quality of research and re-enactment varies by group-- and maybe even by group by region. It also sounds like some groups have different goals-- some want to have fun in a vaguely historical context, and others want to do serious, scholarly research and recreation. There's room for all of us, okay? Gail DeCamp gdecamp@best.com ------------------------------ End of h-costume-digest V1 #62 ****************************** h-costume-digest-approval@world.std.com (h-costume-digest)[34,93]CSuX:h-costume-digest v1 #63 Subject: h-costume-digest V1 #63 From: h-costume-digest-approval@world.std.com (h-costume-digest) Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 20:04:49 -0400 (EDT) h-costume-digest Friday, September 5 1997 Volume 01 : Number 063 In this issue: H-COST: Re: Cartridge Pleating H-COST: Mangling (was Re: linen) Re: H-COST: silk and linen Re: H-COST: silk and linen Re: H-COST: Film and costume H-COST: Vinegar and Silk H-COST: Mangles H-COST: Norman-Saxon clothing Re: H-COST: Fur cloak linings?? H-COST:sewing on silk H-COST:c.1560 Headwear H-COST: Furs and Cold H-COST: Saris/SCA H-COST: Color Fast H-COST: 1560's headgear Re: H-COST: Vinegar and Silk Re: H-COST: silk and linen Re: H-COST: Mangles H-COST: Removing fabric paint H-COST: 17th Century Hair convering? Re: H-COST: Mangles Re: H-COST: Removing fabric paint H-COST: kilt attire Re: H-COST: Furs and Cold H-COST: Re: Fur cloak linings? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- carol kocian [42,94]CSuX:cartridge pleating Subject: H-COST: Re: Cartridge Pleating From: "Carol Kocian" Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 13:51:19 EST - -Poster: "Carol Kocian" Liz Jones wrote: > 7) I have seen a dramatically different method used by friends that > have taken professional tailoring courses. A friend of mine > actually pleated the top and bottom of the pleat onto a waistband > on the outside. So instead of just catching the top of the seam. > The whole pleat was secured, and stuck out much more. I tend to > trust that she learned this method somewhere, and it did create > quite a sturdy protruding set of pleats. ... > Does anyone else out there know of this method, and the reasons or > timeframes one or the other might be used? I've taken some tailoring courses, but cartridge pleating was not included in them. The way I pleat is similar to Liz's friend, though. The latest garment I did this way was an 1860's era ballgown, pleating the back 1/3 of the skirt to the waistband. What I do is stitch the two ends, then divide both lengths in half and stitch the middle point, then keep dividing and stitching until I either have the pleat depth I want or I can no longer cram one more pleat between two others. This leaves a waistband with the bottom, or inside folds of the skirt stitched to it. I then lift the skirt so it's perpendicular to the waistband, and stitch the top of the folds to the waistband. This is 1/2" or so (the depth of the pleat) above the bottom pleats. Obviously this would be a tough thing to tear out an re-do! It's just what works for me, and is especially good for heavy fabrics. I don't draw it up on a thread first. I don't have a historic precedent for this technique, and I didn't learn it from anyone. It's what I came up with after a friend described cartridge pleats to me. As I understood it, she would draw up the pleats onto a thread, and then butt the edge (which looks like a zig zag at that point) perpendicular to the waistband. She would then stitch the skirt to the waistband, catching the entire edge. -Carol Kocian ------------------------------ ninni m pettersson [55,95]CSuX:mangling (was linen) Subject: H-COST: Mangling (was Re: linen) From: Ninni M Pettersson Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 19:47:49 +0100 - -Poster: Ninni M Pettersson Hello! Dawn wrote: >I think mangling linens is something that is almost unique to Scandinavian >countries and those Americans which have emigrated. The cold mangle used by >Swedes and Norwegians to maintain table linens is not a common object in most >American households, and a hot iron and a bit of starch has been the >preferred method for maintaining table linens in the United States. True, it >does impart a terrific shiny appearance to the finished piece, and the same >effect can be achieved with very small pieces by slapping them down on a hard >surface while wet. smoothing out all the wrinkles and air bubbles and letting >the piece dry--I understand that this was the technique many nurses used to >use to "iron" their linen caps. This technique is recommended here in Sweden too, for those who don't have access to a mangle. I've even heard some people recommend using a well-scrubbed linoleum-floor for drying a table cloth! Henk wrote in another post: >Mangles (in Dutch, as in Swedish: Mangel) are very old. The oldest form, >still in use in some parts of the Netherlands until recently, consists of a >thick wooden dowel of ca 70 cm length and 5-6 cm diameter and a narrow >plank or board of about 10 x 50 cm with a grip nailed and glued on it on >one side. >It looks a lot like ironing, but of course it's done >without heat and with wooden implements. You might call it 'wood(en)ing'. >It's supposed to date from the middle ages, but nobody knows from which >part. No recognisable mangle boards or dowels were ever found, or it was >never realised when wooden artifacts of this description were ever >discovered. My guess is that if they split or broke they were just tossed >into the fire, so we'll probably never dig up any mangles from before 1650. Hm, I seem to remember hearing or reading something about a stone mangle board being found in the recent excavations at Birka. This would certainly push the antecedents of mangling back another 800 years. But I could be wrong. Anyone have any information about this? Anyway thanks to all of you for providing more information on mangling. To me it's just one of the boring facts of everyday life, and I've never really thought about it before! So far we've heard about mangling (or the lack of it :-) in the US and in the Netherlands. But what about other countries, anyone have any interesting facts about how linen is/was treated by, for example, the British or French house-wife? /Ninni Pettersson ------------------------------ linda mcallister [25,96]CSuX:silk and linen Subject: Re: H-COST: silk and linen From: Linda McAllister Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 14:47:39 -0700 (PDT) - -Poster: Linda McAllister > Hello, wise list people! I have a question about washing silk. Months ago, I > remember people recommending rinsing silk with vinegar. At least I think I > do. Would someone please remind me of why to do this, and how much to use? I > bought some beautiful black and gold silk brocade last year, and am now > finally going to use it. It is QUITE stiff and I want it to drape, so I'll be > washing it. Is Ivory Snow or Dreft okay to use? I am very nervous, never > having sewn with anything this expensive before... I need a special machine > needle, don't I? Can I use regular thread? I use shampoo for silk business-type blouses, washed by hand in cool water and line-dried out of the sun. Lately I've been using Orvus, which is just sodium laurylsulphate, the active ingredient in many shampoos, with no added fragrences, etc. It's sold in animal supply stores as horse shampoo, $19 for 5 pounds, or in quilt supply stores, $5 for an 8-oz bottle. I've never tried washing brocades, though: I'd test with some smallish swatches first. Linda ------------------------------ margo anderson [26,97]CSuX:silk and linen Subject: Re: H-COST: silk and linen From: Margo Anderson Date: Wed, 04 Sep 1996 17:09:56 -0700 - -Poster: Margo Anderson I >> bought some beautiful black and gold silk brocade last year, and am now >> finally going to use it. It is QUITE stiff and I want it to drape, so I'll be >> washing it. Is Ivory Snow or Dreft okay to use? I am very nervous, never >> having sewn with anything this expensive before... I need a special machine >> needle, don't I? Can I use regular thread? > I just tried handpainting gold highlights onto some red and black silk brocade, (still trying to come up with a workable fabric for that Elizabethan doll dress) and I hated the results so much that I tossed the fabric into a cold water wash with Ajax detergent. Now, I'm not recommending that you go to such drastic measures, but I will say that the silk came out soft and drapey. You don't need a special needle, but do use a new one. My experience in the sewing machine business taught me that most machine problems can be improved with a new needle. You can use silk thread if you like, but a high quality poly thread such as Gutterrman will probably confuse your machine less. Margo Anderson ------------------------------ maggiros@aol.com[21,98]CSuX:film and costume Subject: Re: H-COST: Film and costume From: MaggiRos@aol.com Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 00:09:58 -0400 (EDT) - -Poster: MaggiRos@aol.com In a message dated 97-09-04 11:26:38 EDT, s0peladn@erols.com (Penny E. Ladnier) writes: > one of the > latter, according to MGM sources, involving apparel made for Turner > "entirely of seeds pearls, thousands of which were handsewn." and the rest were applied by... machine? LOL, sorry, I suppose the rest were probably been applied with glue. But this is one of those sorts of facts people use to impress, that always strikes me as bizarre. Usually they say "applied by hand" as if there were an alternative. If there's a machine to apply those pearls, I want one! MaggiRos ~I will never catch up for being away from the list for 2 weeks. But I'm beginning to have enough light to see I'm in a tunnel!~ ------------------------------ leslie helms [16,99]CSuX:vinegar and silk Subject: H-COST: Vinegar and Silk From: Leslie Helms Date: Thu, 04 Sep 1997 23:17:48 -0700 - -Poster: Leslie Helms The vinegar is a weak acid, and softens the silk fibers through (one hopes!) controlled damage. This is slightly risky, and I'd be very very cautious with a heavy brocade which may need its stiffness, but I have done this with very lovely results. Don't try it unless you have scraps you can test and discard. The vinegar will work without any mechanical action, and could therefore be just a soak (I won't hazard a guess on dilution; have always done this by instinct) but if your fabric won't take mechanical action it may not be a good candidate anyhow. Leslie Who has machine-washed everything except the cats ------------------------------ mrs c s yeldham [49,100]CSuX:mangles Subject: H-COST: Mangles From: Mrs C S Yeldham Date: 05 Sep 97 10:41:00 GMT - -Poster: Mrs C S Yeldham I was interested in this discussion, as my only experience of mangles is in a different context. My grandmother had a mangle but it was used to wring water out of clothes after washing, which would then be hung on the line to dry and ironed when dry. The clothes would be transferred from the washing machine (or presumably, previously the sink or washtub) into a metal barrel which stood about 3 foot high. The mangle (two wooden rollers) was mounted above the barrel, and the clothes fed through and off into a basket. The water fell back into the barrel. I don't remember her using it for linen specifically. She did have linen sheets, but I only remember her using nylon ones. My mother found a stack of linen sheets after she died, and gave them away - this was about 5 years before I started re-enactment (sigh!). As a small diversion, my grandfather was a wool quality tester for some of the Lancashire mills after the war, and I wish I had spoken to him about it before he died. Curious how these things come round in families - I now have a passion for wool! I don't really want to get into the whys and wherefores of authenticity (been there, done that and the T-shirts getting rather old). I do the best I can and make the compromises I have to until I learn better or find a better source! I did just want to comment on the question of doing odd jobs, which is apparently another area of cultural difference. There was a recent programme on the history of DIY in England (bear with me) which commented that until the 1950s hardly anyone did any DIY in England. Most homes were rented, so it was the landlord's job to organise repairs etc (and he probably wouldn't want badly done repairs by the tenant). Those who owned their own homes were therefore the wealthier section of society, and the viewpoint that anyone working with their hands who didn't have to was eccentric at best would start to operate (I love the comments of contemporaries on the gentlemen inventors, pioneers of photography etc - very funny). This may seem a form of learned helplessness, but it would also support a group of skilled craftsmen and shops to supply them, which have become a rarity today, with DIY so popular. Indeed (back to the suject) people renovating old houses etc are having to relearn these old skills. Caroline BTW - thanks to all the list for a refuge of sanity in a world gone mad at the moment! ------------------------------ carol blanchard [14,101]CSuX:norman-saxon clothing Subject: H-COST: Norman-Saxon clothing From: "Carol Blanchard" Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 07:46:44 +0000 - -Poster: "Carol Blanchard" A few days ago someone gratiously gave me a listing of sources for research which included several publications from the British government. I hopelessly lost this in my computer. If possible, could you send me this information again since not only I, but another list member is going to England and would like to try to obtain some of these. Thank you and I'll try not to let my computer run away from me again!!! Carol Blanchard ------------------------------ irene lenoir [71,102]CSuX:fur cloak linings?? Subject: Re: H-COST: Fur cloak linings?? From: Irene leNoir Date: Fri, 5 Sep 97 08:05:31 -0500 - -Poster: Irene leNoir Barbara, I will warn you, this response is going to be a little vague. >Does anyone out there have references or have any of you >seen actual historical cloaks with a fur lining? I'm most interested >in the period 1250 AD to about 1400 AD (western Europe.) I have not seen any actual extant garments, but a picture that I have = seen somewhere (I'm sorry, I can't remember where) springs = immediately to mind. I seem to recall that it was a brass rubbing. = It was of a time period to interest me, and I study 14th and 15th = century France, so it falls within you specified time range. It = shows a woman wearing a cloak that has fallen open in front, exposing = the inside of the cloak. The inside of the cloak is vair. >Were furs used as lining for warmth, or were they already >enough of a status symbol that they were put on the outside of >the cloak or used as trim? Furs were used for warmth. Keep in mind that in the year 1997 we are = living in the middle of a warm spell in the middle of an ice age. In = the middle ages, climates were a lot colder than they are now. I = would also be careful about assuming that fur was necessarily a = status symbol. Okay, silly things like ermine and vair probably = were, but fur in general may not have been. Think about how long it = took to produce fabric and how labor intensive it was. In = comparison, fur would have been a lot less difficult to obtain. Duh... I sent a response privately again when I meant to send it to = the list. Anyway, here it is. Regarding where the fur would be placed: For other garments of the time period, fur was frequently used as a = lining (and would often also creep around the edge and act as trim). = See "Les Tres Riches Heures" plates for January, April, May, and = August. >If they were used as linings, how did the pelt's direction run? >Down from a shoulder seam in both front and back? All in one >direction in long strips (down in front, up in back or vice versa)? >Radiating out from the neckline all around? Any which way? >Some other pattern? In "Les Tres Riches Heures" not enough of the fur shows to be able to = tell. In the uncited picture I mentioned above, due to the nature of = how vair is pieced, the direction ran simultaneously in different = directions. >At what point in time (or approximate status level) would the skins >have been trimmed to use only the heavier back and side fur, eliminating >the thinner, differently colored belly fur? Did this trimming tend to >make the working pieces into longish rectangles, rather than squarish = blocks? >Would this affect the pattern the pelts were joined in? I think that it is also an error to assume that the belly fur would = not have been used and the side and back fur would have been. In the = case of vair at least, only the belly fur is used. In reality, I'm = sure they were both used, just not necessarily in the same project. ________________________________ Jessica I. Clark ------------------------------ jweidman@invest.treas.state.mi.us[35,103]CSuX:sewing on silk Subject: H-COST:sewing on silk From: jweidman@invest.treas.state.mi.us Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 09:14:45 -0400 - -Poster: jweidman@invest.treas.state.mi.us >> bought some beautiful black and gold silk brocade last year, and am now >> finally going to use it. It is QUITE stiff and I want it to drape, so I'll be >> washing it. Is Ivory Snow or Dreft okay to use? I am very nervous, never >> having sewn with anything this expensive before... I need a special machine >> needle, don't I? Can I use regular thread? Hi, I'm new (intro later) but I can contribute here. Absolutely use a new needle, size 11 if fabric is medium weight, size 14 for heavy. Probably do not use silk thread. Silk thread is excellent for marking as in tailor tacks, gathering, or any pre-construction type of use because it is strong -- very strong -- and does not usually leave holes. However, for seam construction, one does not want thread stronger than the fabric, even silk fabric. Polyester thread actually stretches during sewing machine construction, thus the ripples/puckering on fine cotton or linen sewn with all polyester thread that cannot be pressed, steamed, or maybe even mangled out. Use cotton or polyester wrapped cotton thread. Gutermann is very good thread, just look on the spool and make sure it is from the batches made in Germany NOT in Mexico, there is a lareg quality difference. Mettler is also very excellent; signature, coats and clark are good. Do not buy that on-the-sale-table-in-front no-name brand. Needles (preferbly Schmetz, Organ, and a few others) and thread are the least expensive and most important parts of any sewing project. These are my humble opinions only, but through experience. Jane Weidman ------------------------------ bronwens@aol.com[23,104]CSuX:c.1560 headwear Subject: H-COST:c.1560 Headwear From: BronwenS@aol.com Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 10:08:09 -0400 (EDT) - -Poster: BronwenS@aol.com I need some advice....and a bit of guidance. I'm wanting to make a head piece for my courtgarb. By problem is this. I have a very sensitive head...and I mean VERY. Any weight pulling on my head gives me a headache...I can't even wear a pony-tail because my hair is so heavy that is causes to much pull. I have, in the past, worked on the assumption that, if hats give me a headache now...they would have then too. But I've gotten to the point of "why make nice garb if I don't complete the look". Every one I know who makes "late period" headwear uses "tons" of bobby pins and combs...gives me a migraime just looking at them. Is there a lightweight form of head covering that was acceptable in Elizabethan court at this time?? I've seen some interesting looks, but need to know how they fit before making one for myself. I can, and do, wear hair brets if they don't fit to tight at the temple. If there is a headpeice that can be fitted to one of these, that would help greatly. Bronwen who's gratitude and love for the list is boundless ------------------------------ mrs c s yeldham [22,105]CSuX:furs and cold Subject: H-COST: Furs and Cold From: Mrs C S Yeldham Date: 05 Sep 97 15:25:00 GMT - -Poster: Mrs C S Yeldham The list discussed the question of a mini ice-age in medieval/early modern Europe ad nauseam recently - and the best evidence the geographers could come up with was limited periods of a degree or two colder in certain periods in the 15th, 16th and 17th centuries (correlated to some rather doubtful social effects); so *please* do not assume that Western Europe was substantially colder then than now. It always echoes the 'nasty, brutish and short' view of the medieval world to me! Turning to the real question, if we didn't have central heating, centrally heated cars and modern water-repelling fabrics, I'd turn to furs for warmth and water-repelling properties in England's weather (even some summer days), never mind on the Continent. Some furs have always been prestigious and/or the animals protected by game laws, but some were not. The classic example would be hare, which was neither farmed (like rabbit) nor protected, like deer. Caroline ------------------------------ tim allison [22,106]CSuX:saris/sca Subject: H-COST: Saris/SCA From: Tim Allison Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 10:03:02 -0600 - -Poster: Tim Allison A few weeks ago we had a thread on the tops worn with saris. I talked with a friend who usually wears Indian dress and has done a fair amount of research, in India, on the subject. She told me that the posters who thought that the sari was wrapped around, without a separate top, and that the sari was made with a border of matching fabric designed to be cut and used for a top, were both correct. Poor women frequently cannot afford to have separate tops, which until recently were always custom made and fitted, so they sometimes have to just throw the ends of the sari around and fasten it. Those who can afford to do so frequently use that border for material for a short blouse to be worn with the sari. The SCA began life as a backyard going away party for an individual who wanted a tournament. The backyard belonged to a woman who writes fantasy with a strong medieval flavor. Authenticity did not become an issue until later. Carol Mitchell ------------------------------ highland@soltec.com (susan)[19,107]CSuX:color fast Subject: H-COST: Color Fast From: highland@soltec.com (Susan) Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 10:22:58 +0100 - -Poster: highland@soltec.com (Susan) Hello List, As a new person on the list, I'm not sure if this topic as previously been covered. But my question is, what can I do to prevent strong colors on wool fabric from coming off on other fabrics. I'm refering to dark or red wool from bleeding onto the white linen of regimental small clothes. (Yes, I am a reenactor ;-) I would appreciate your suggestions. At the moment I'm making gaters that are dark brown wool, and I'm told they have a habit of turning the breeches brown after wearing for a weekend. Thankyou for your assistance in advance. Susan K. ------------------------------ mrs c s yeldham [28,108]CSuX:1560 s headgear Subject: H-COST: 1560's headgear From: Mrs C S Yeldham Date: 05 Sep 97 16:00:00 GMT - -Poster: Mrs C S Yeldham I have two suggestions for headgear (slapbang in the middle of my period!), but which you want to use depends how high you are. The first was used by everyone up to high court people (and probably them on informal occasions). This is a plain white coif which covers your head and is tied at the back (not very constricting - should be linen, can be cotton). Your hair is worn up inside it (shouldn't take too many pins!). This can be covered by a decorated beret which just perches on top of the head (could use hatpin to coif). I think the Katherine Howard picture in the National Portrait Gallery (she's in a red brocade English gown) shows this style. One alternative which is rather posher but probably more difficult for you would be to put your hair up at the back of your head (again decorated - I've used a gold caul on occasion) and the beret on top. The Young Girl in polychrome embroidery bodice from the 1560s (its in the Tate) wears this style. Coifs, which vary in style, are the basic women's headgear for everyone not in formal court gear, and cover a multitude of sins (fringes, dyes etc). They are also good at keeping your hair clean. Caroline ------------------------------ r.l. shep [24,109]CSuX:vinegar and silk Subject: Re: H-COST: Vinegar and Silk From: "R.L. Shep" Date: Fri, 05 Sep 1997 08:36:05 +0100 - -Poster: "R.L. Shep" Leslie Helms wrote: > > -Poster: Leslie Helms > > The vinegar is a weak acid, and softens the silk fibers through (one > hopes!) controlled damage. This is slightly risky, and I'd be very very > cautious with a heavy brocade which may need its stiffness, but I have done > this with very lovely results. Don't try it unless you have scraps you can > test and discard. The vinegar will work without any mechanical action, and > could therefore be just a soak (I won't hazard a guess on dilution; have > always done this by instinct) but if your fabric won't take mechanical > action it may not be a good candidate anyhow. > > Leslie I always wash silk by hand - but I do put a teaspoon of vinegar into the rinse water. That is 1 teaspoon to a sinkfull of clear water. ~!~ R.L. Shep ------------------------------ kate pinner [21,110]CSuX:silk and linen Subject: Re: H-COST: silk and linen From: Kate Pinner Date: Fri, 05 Sep 1997 11:43:39 -0700 - -Poster: Kate Pinner Margo Anderson wrote: > I just tried handpainting gold highlights onto some red and black silk > brocade, and I hated the results so much that I tossed the > fabric into a cold water wash with Ajax detergent. Now, I'm not > recommending that you go to such drastic measures, but I will say that the silk came out soft and drapey. > Rosco (theatre supplier) puts out a gold paint that's vinyl/acrylic that staays sort of flexible so it works on fabrics -- it's not one of those puffy kinds you find in craft stores. - -- Kate Pinner Kelsey Theatre Tech Dir--Design Sets/Costumes ------------------------------ su carter [40,111]CSuX:mangles Subject: Re: H-COST: Mangles From: "Su Carter" Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 11:33:42 -0400 - -Poster: "Su Carter" Caroline and all, I've been following the discussion of mangle/mangel with some interest but I've had nothing to add til now. Caroline said: >machine (or presumably, previously the sink or washtub) into a metal barrel >which stood about 3 foot high. The mangle (two wooden rollers) was mounted >above the barrel, and the clothes fed through and off into a basket. The >water fell back into the barrel. I always heard this called a 'wringer' in American English (AE?) and I know I learned about the mangle from English, oops, British sources so off I went to the bookcase. I suggest "Home Comfort" by Christina Hardyment, a 1992 National Trust book. On page 195 she offers a wonderfully detailed history of the mangle as smoothing device, in use in England since the 18th century and on page xiv is a marvelous picture of the box mangle at Shugborough Hall, Staffs. which is apparently still being used to amaze and astound the public. At the same time we are reminded of the wonderful variety of the English language and just how confused we can make one another - I love it!! Here's to more confusion that leads to learning, Su _ Su Carter Williamsburg, VA, USA scarter@widomaker.com ------------------------------ colleen mcdonald hinrichs [28,112]CSuX:removing fabric paint Subject: H-COST: Removing fabric paint From: Colleen McDonald Hinrichs Date: Fri, 05 Sep 1997 09:10:11 -0700 - -Poster: Colleen McDonald Hinrichs Hello all, I have a quick question and I am hoping that one of you can help me today. Last night, I was blocking printing on cotton and managed to get a small amount of the paint on the fabric outside of the area that I was printing on. I need to get this small amount of excess paint off of the cotton. The fabric paint I used is permanent, washable and will not fade. What can I use to get this paint off the fabric without damaging the fabric or the block painting? Any help that I can get today would be appreciated - I need to finish this project tonight so that I can wear it tomorrow evening. (Another thread - do others out there leave projects until the very last minute, too?) Thanks in advance, Colleen McDonald Hinrichs Colleen@mackie.com ------------------------------ hilma miles [36,113]CSuX:17th century hair convering? Subject: H-COST: 17th Century Hair convering? From: hilma MILES Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 12:21:40 -0400 - -Poster: hilma MILES Hi, I (too) am new, but have been "lurking" a while. I'm here as an intermediary for a none-net friend, who is involved in a reactment village. = The village, in the South of England, is fixed in 1642, the reign of King= = Charles I . My friend is a respectable widow, aged around 59 and is a basket-weaver.= (Or sometimes a needlewoman, when the weather is rough) . She's made a few respectable-villager costumes, and always has her (short= , wavy, greying) hair in a coif. My question is, is it absolutely necessary for her to have her hair cover= ed at all times; in the heat of our summer (yes really!), it gets very uncomfortable, and she's desperate to have an authentic (these people are= very strict on authenticity), but minimal, head-covering. She's not looking for another marriage; just happily doing her craft, helping out with the youth of the village, and occasionally grand-daughter-sitting. = Any suggestions? Many thanks, = Hilma - --x------- ------------------------------ susan fatemi [29,114]CSuX:mangles Subject: Re: H-COST: Mangles From: Susan Fatemi Date: Fri, 05 Sep 1997 10:05:07 -0700 - -Poster: Susan Fatemi Mrs C S Yeldham wrote: > > a different context. My grandmother had a mangle but it was used to wring > water out of clothes after washing, which would then be hung on the line to > dry and ironed when dry. The clothes would be transferred from the washing > machine (or presumably, previously the sink or washtub) into a metal barrel > which stood about 3 foot high. The mangle (two wooden rollers) was mounted > above the barrel, and the clothes fed through and off into a basket. The > water fell back into the barrel. > I've been meaning to add my 2 c. What Caroline describes is not really a mangle (not in the U.S. anyway) My grandmother had one of those old wringer-washers, and the roller part was just called the "wringer". I remember my mother explaining a "mangle" to me -- we must have seen one in a junk store or used appliance store -- that it was used for ironing sheets. This was an electric appliance that you would sit at and run the sheets thru'. This would have been in the late 50's. We both thought that was pretty funny as we didn't iron sheets and didn't know anyone who did except my grandmother. Susan Fatemi ------------------------------ margo anderson [26,115]CSuX:removing fabric paint Subject: Re: H-COST: Removing fabric paint From: Margo Anderson Date: Thu, 05 Sep 1996 11:10:36 -0700 - -Poster: Margo Anderson (Another thread - do others out there leave >projects until the very last minute, too?) > As someone who was sewing the hem on her wedding dress half an hour before the ceremony, and used to expect not to sleep the night before delivering a project, I can attest that this is the norm. I've had to change my evil ways since the advent of small children and middle age (at the same time--what was I thinking?) but it does seem to be fairly standard. I always thought this was the sign of not being professional, but learned differently after having the privelege of working with Robert Fletcher, a designer for film, theater, and ballet who has been in the business for over 50 years. As we were frantically basting costumes together for the dress rehearsal, I asked, I thought rhetorically, "Has there ever been a production that was finished ahead of time?" "Oh, yes" he answered. "Three times, that I can recall." Margo Anderson ------------------------------ pastimpres@aol.com[14,116]CSuX:kilt attire Subject: H-COST: kilt attire From: Pastimpres@aol.com Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 16:53:30 -0400 (EDT) - -Poster: Pastimpres@aol.com What type of coat, vest, shirt, tie ensemble would have been worn with a highland kilt in the late Victorian period? I've been asked and would love to know myself. Not the formal kilt attire, but more of a casual coat with the kilt. Would it have been a morning coat, lounge coat? Or was it really up to the individual? Thanks in advance for the help. Becci ------------------------------ irene lenoir [69,117]CSuX:furs and cold Subject: Re: H-COST: Furs and Cold From: Irene leNoir Date: Fri, 5 Sep 97 18:36:51 -0500 - -Poster: Irene leNoir Caroline wrote: >The list discussed the question of a mini ice-age in medieval/early modern >Europe ad nauseam recently It must have taken place before I joined the list. I'm sorry that I = missed it. >the best evidence the geographers could >come up with was limited periods of a degree or two colder in certain >periods in the 15th, 16th and 17th centuries I have read some of these studies. From what I can decipher of the = scientific jargon, these conclusions are based on samples of certain = atmospheric gases trapped in ice core samples. The thing that jumps = out at me from this is the fact that they are getting these samples = from ice cores. In order to obtain an ice core sample, you have to = go somewhere where it remains below freezing year-round, and has = remained below freezing for hundreds (to thousands) of years. Any = region that fits this description (usually polar regions) probably = has not varied as much in temperature in the last several hundred = years as areas that are warmer. I have also been informed of research (I'm sorry, I don't have the = citations) into changes in food crops that were grown and breeds of = domestic animals that were kept, and what these changes say about = climate. I will admit, I erred in stating that "climates were a lot colder". = I should have said that climates were cooler. >(correlated to some rather doubtful social effects) What do you mean by this? > so *please* do not assume that Western Europe was >substantially colder then than now. I am not assuming. It is what I have always been taught, and I = belive it, for a variety of reasons. >It always echoes the 'nasty, brutish >and short' view of the medieval world to me! I'm sorry that you find the idea of cooler temperatures to be such a = negative one. I personally prefer cooler weather. >Turning to the real question, if we didn't have central heating, centrally >heated cars and modern water-repelling fabrics, I'd turn to furs for = warmth >and water-repelling properties in England's weather (even some summer >days), never mind on the Continent. Yes, on cold winter days or wet and/or cold summer ones. However, I = flat out refuse to believe that any sane person would choose to wear = a fur lined houppelande on a clear August day, while engaging in = moderate activity, if the day in question is at all similiar to what = we experience today. See the August plate of Les Tres Riches Heures. ________________________________ Jessica I. Clark ------------------------------ dtjacobson@aol.com[45,118]CSuX:fur cloak linings? Subject: H-COST: Re: Fur cloak linings? From: DTJacobson@aol.com Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 20:04:37 -0400 (EDT) - -Poster: DTJacobson@aol.com In H-Costume Digest #62, John and/or Barbara Bailey wrote: <> Funny that this question should pop up right now, as I'm starting to read _Textiles and Clothing c.1150-c.1450: Medieval Finds from Excavations in "Fur is also conspicuously absent from the excavated pieces of clothing, thereby detracting from its important practical and sartorial role. No doubt some small scraps were thrown away and have decomposed, leaving no evidence at all for their presence. It should be noted, however, that the conditions prevailing in the dock infill at the East Watergate (BC72) were sufficiently favourable to preserve such delicate items as the feathers of peacocks and other birds. In addition, none of the sewing or stitch holes hint a tthe former presence of fur linings such as those recorded on garments of prosperous merchant families buried in a cemetary dating to the 9th and 10th centuries at Birka in eastern Sweden (Hagg 1983, 320, figs 17.4a and b). Fur linings are known, nevertheless, to have beenworn by the citizens of London for warmth as well as status (Veale 1966, 3-5). The negative evidence is slightly puzzling until one takes into account the activities of the fripperers, secondhand clothing dealers. They formed a thriving community in London in the 13th century and it is probable tha ttheir work generally mirrored that of their Parisian counterparts as outlined by Etienne Boileau in 1268 (Depping 1837, 194-204)." (pp 2-3). On a slightly different note, I highly recommend this book to anyone that is seriously interested in the textiles and clothing of this period--the book documents the weave structures, dyes, and construction techniques of actual garments of this period. There is a great deal of information and very little conjecture on the part of the authors. The book is difficult to find in the US, but is available at the HMSO bookshops in the UK. Dawn DTJacobson@aol.com ------------------------------ End of h-costume-digest V1 #63 ****************************** h-costume-digest-approval@world.std.com (h-costume-digest)[42,119]CSuX:h-costume-digest v1 #64 Subject: h-costume-digest V1 #64 From: h-costume-digest-approval@world.std.com (h-costume-digest) Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 14:57:30 -0400 (EDT) h-costume-digest Monday, September 8 1997 Volume 01 : Number 064 In this issue: H-COST: Re: Silk & Linen Re: H-COST: Re: Fur cloak linings? Re: H-COST: Vinegar and Silk H-COST: head wear H-COST: Re: h-fabric paint removal H-COST: Re: gold highlights H-COST: mangles in the USA H-COST: Victorian Web Site H-COST: painting silk. Re: H-COST: kilt attire H-COST: mangling H-COST: Re: Color Fast Re: H-COST: Kull the fantasy H-COST: France -Antique Fair H-COST: Antique Costume Fair H-COST: Searching for V&A beadwork photos Re: H-COST: Fur cloak linings?? H-COST: Eliz. shoulder roll treatments?? Re: H-COST: Eliz. shoulder roll treatments?? Re: H-COST: Eliz. shoulder roll treatments?? Re: H-COST: source for fringe Re: H-COST: Searching for V&A beadwork photos Re: H-COST: Eliz. shoulder roll treatments?? H-COST: Victorian Polka Workshop in San Francisco Bay Area H-COST: American Civil War mailing list Re: H-COST: Eliz. shoulder roll treatments?? Re: H-COST: American Civil War mailing list H-COST: Headgear H-COST: 4 ply silk Re: H-COST: Eliz. shoulder roll treatments?? H-COST: The Costume Con Fifteen Website has PICTURES! Re: H-COST: Headgear Re: H-COST: mangling ---------------------------------------------------------------------- dtjacobson@aol.com[41,120]CSuX:silk & linen Subject: H-COST: Re: Silk & Linen From: DTJacobson@aol.com Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 20:06:10 -0400 (EDT) - -Poster: DTJacobson@aol.com In H-Costume Digest #62 Gail Finke wrote: <> Vinegar is an acid, which is necessary to set the dye on protein-based fibers (silk and wool). Rinsing silk in a mild vinegar solution sets the dye and keeps it from running (running is caused by dye that is on the surface of the fiber and not actually *in* the fiber washing off). I must admit, I'm not sure how much one would use to set already-woven fabric that isn't going into the dye pot--normally I add the vinegar as part of the dye process. Try washing a very small piece (aka "sample") of the brocade before taking the plunge and working on the entire piece. You may find that it does not soften up as much as you had hoped. Believe it or not, the best products for washing delicates, particularly dyed delicates are: 1) Synthapol, a special detergent sold for dyers; 2) Dawn Dishwashing Liquid. Both are extremely mild, keep the excess dye in suspension, and don't have a drying effect on the fiber. I've never used a special needle for sewing silk; I just make sure to replace the needle that's on the sewing machine before I start so that the needle is very sharp. Most people I know that sew silk use regular thread--it can be difficult to find an exact match in silk thread, but most fabric stores carry a wide range of colors in polyester thread. Good luck with your silk! 8-) Dawn DTJacobson@aol.com ------------------------------ rognstad sylvia [9,121]CSuX:fur cloak linings? Subject: Re: H-COST: Re: Fur cloak linings? From: Rognstad Sylvia Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 20:10:02 -0600 (MDT) - -Poster: Rognstad Sylvia Something I've always wondered about but haven't bothered to research it get permission to do such a thing? Sylvia R ------------------------------ joan m jurancich [34,122]CSuX:vinegar and silk Subject: Re: H-COST: Vinegar and Silk From: Joan M Jurancich Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 22:53:00 -0400 - -Poster: Joan M Jurancich At 11:17 PM 9/4/97 -0700, Leslie Helms wrote: >-Poster: Leslie Helms > >The vinegar is a weak acid, and softens the silk fibers through (one >hopes!) controlled damage. This is slightly risky, and I'd be very very >cautious with a heavy brocade which may need its stiffness, but I have done >this with very lovely results. Don't try it unless you have scraps you can >test and discard. The vinegar will work without any mechanical action, and >could therefore be just a soak (I won't hazard a guess on dilution; have >always done this by instinct) but if your fabric won't take mechanical >action it may not be a good candidate anyhow. > >Leslie >Who has machine-washed everything except the cats I always use a bit of vinegar (about 1/4 to 1/2 cup per load in the washer) when washing silks. First in the wash water, then in the rinse water. I don't soak it though, just the usual wash and rinse times. Joan Jurancich, Sacramento, California joanj@quiknet.com NOTICE TO BULK E-MAILERS: Pursuant to US Code, Title 47, Chp. 5, Subchp. II, p. 227, any and all nonsolicited commercial E-mail sent to this address is subject to a download and archival fee in the amount of $500 US. E-mailing denotes acceptance of these terms. ------------------------------ lady catherine mcgire [14,123]CSuX:head wear Subject: H-COST: head wear From: Lady Catherine Mcgire Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 19:41:21 -0700 - -Poster: Lady Catherine Mcgire Hello: Up untill now I have been a lurker. But I too have a sensitive head. I solved my problem by using a four inch wide band of bruckrum covered to match my garb, studded it with pearls and attached a "gauze" vail along the rear edge. I attaches it with decortiave (gold and perl) barettes fastened at the temples. The gauze weighs very little os there is minamum "pull" to generate headaches. Patricia Fee ------------------------------ lee & bill [19,124]CSuX:h-fabric paint removal Subject: H-COST: Re: h-fabric paint removal From: Lee & Bill Date: Fri, 05 Sep 1997 21:04:39 -0700 - -Poster: Lee & Bill Colleen, I don't know how to get out fabric paint, but for an emergency, you could try painting over the oops with acrylics or fabric paint that matched the background. Not a great solution, but better than tossing out the project -- I used it to save my often-washed gold wool uniform skirt when I spilled green acrylic on it my Sophmore year in high school. It made it through graduation without needing a touch-up! Lee >What can I use to get this paint off the fabric without >damaging the fabric or the block painting? ------------------------------ lee & bill [21,125]CSuX:gold highlights Subject: H-COST: Re: gold highlights From: Lee & Bill Date: Fri, 05 Sep 1997 21:20:49 -0700 - -Poster: Lee & Bill Margo, I guess the pretty punch suggestion WAS a bit overboard, but how about machine embroidery? I use metallic thread on top and regular thread in the bobbin. A straight stitch makes a fine, subtle line, or maybe you should try those fancy, usually useless stitches your machine does. It would be incredibly tedious on a full-size garment, but 1/3d size seems pretty doable, especially if you skipped any parts that won't show. Lee you wrote: (snip) >just tried handpainting gold highlights onto some red and black silk >brocade, (still trying to come up with a workable fabric for that >Elizabethan doll dress) ------------------------------ lee & bill [14,126]CSuX:mangles in the usa Subject: H-COST: mangles in the USA From: Lee & Bill Date: Fri, 05 Sep 1997 21:37:50 -0700 - -Poster: Lee & Bill I've but just can't resist joining in any longer. My mom had an electric (hot) mangle here in California in the 1960s. We used it to iron pillowcases and handkerchiefs (!), and anything else that was flat. I always thought it was kind of neat, and MUCH easier than ironing. You even got to sit down while working! Mom got rid of it about 20 years ago. I saw one last year in a thrift store for about $100. BTW, we aren't even Scandanavian. Lee ------------------------------ penny e. ladnier [22,127]CSuX:victorian web site Subject: H-COST: Victorian Web Site From: "Penny E. Ladnier" Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 01:25:13 -0400 - -Poster: "Penny E. Ladnier" I found a wonderful index web site tonight for Victorian Costume. It is located at: http://lang.nagoya-u.ac.jp/%7Ematsuoka/Victorian.html Later...Penny Penny E. Dunlap Ladnier, s0peladn@erols.com Historic Costume Research Web Page http://www.geocities.com/FashionAvenue/1899 member: Costume Society of America American Fashion Council Virginia Commonwealth University Alumni (finally!) ------------------------------ sara j. davitt [21,128]CSuX:painting silk. Subject: H-COST: painting silk. From: "Sara J. Davitt" Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 01:32:39 -0500 (CDT) - -Poster: "Sara J. Davitt" > > fabric into a cold water wash with Ajax detergent. Now, I'm not > > recommending that you go to such drastic measures, but I will say that the silk came out soft and drapey. > > > Rosco (theatre supplier) puts out a gold paint that's vinyl/acrylic that > staays sort of flexible so it works on fabrics -- it's not one of those > puffy kinds you find in craft stores. The stuff that my interior/clothing designer friend uses is Liquitex, Concentrated acrylic... it is liquified enough to get it to bind tho the fibres.. not just sit on top. She does this sort of painted treatement on everything from shirts to sheets, and no complaints of stiffness, ort scratchyness... admittably, it will ad a bit of body to the fabric... but a good stiff washing generally softens, as well as 'ages' the appearance. Take Care, Sarahj ------------------------------ albertcat@aol.com[13,129]CSuX:kilt attire Subject: Re: H-COST: kilt attire From: AlbertCat@aol.com Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 09:33:32 -0400 (EDT) - -Poster: AlbertCat@aol.com In a message dated 97-09-06 05:45:20 EDT, Pastimpres@aol.com writes: << What type of coat, vest, shirt, tie ensemble would have been worn with a highland kilt in the late Victorian period? >> Try a Norfolk Jacket....y'know tweed or houndstooth. It's a great look....sporty....& popular [as kilts go] up into the 1920s & 1930s. My mind's eye keeps seeing Nigel Bruce in a kilt & Norfolk jacket. ------------------------------ trekona@erols.com[26,130]CSuX:mangling Subject: H-COST: mangling From: trekona@erols.com Date: Sat, 06 Sep 97 16:24:34 GMT - -Poster: trekona@erols.com I think a little confusion regarding mangles and such is coming from the fact that a number of museums that I have been in display long wooden object called 'mangling boards'. These seem to have all sorts of deeply carved crevaces in them and seemd to be in some way involved in distressng linen - I think similar to the way that wool is waulked, although I'm not positive. When I read Ninni's (?) dictionary definition, my memory of the mangling boards fit perfectly with the first definiation that she tossed out in favor of the wringer-like machine. As a humorous aside, while visiting Denmark last summer, I was amused by all the road signs in a white triangle that said: 'MANGLER'. I kept wondering if some crazy person was going to jump out at us and scrub the car with a wooden linen board! ;-) As I understand it, I think it merely means 'caution'. Oh, to the person who asked about digging up the coffins to find out about fur linings... there is a fancy term for graverobbing, called archeology! ;-) (sorry, it comes from a signature line of an archeologist, and I loved it). Birka Sweden is known for its preserved area of an old (back to Viking Age) market and cemetary area. Archeologists, under state supervision, are always digging up areas to write artices about them. I didn't realize that there was stuff as late as medieval era there. Neat. -Judy Mitchell ------------------------------ dtjacobson@aol.com[36,131]CSuX:color fast Subject: H-COST: Re: Color Fast From: DTJacobson@aol.com Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 13:35:10 -0400 (EDT) - -Poster: DTJacobson@aol.com In H-Costume Digest #63, Susan K. wrote: <> When dark fabrics "bleed" without the application of water, that is known as "crocking." When this happens with the application of water, it is "running." In any event, it's caused by the same thing--excess dye left on the surface of the dyed fiber (wool, silk, cotton, etc.) The way to stop this from happening is to wash the fabric--several times if necessary--in the washing machine. This washing will continue the fulling of a wool, so it is important to buy a bit extra to accommodate the shrinkage during the prewashing process. "But I've already made the item! What do I do now?" There is a very good product that dyers use called "Synthrapol." It is a specially-formulated detergent for washing dyed fibers and fabrics immediately after dyeing, as it keeps the excess dye in suspension until it is drained off by the washing machine as it empties. This stuff really works--I use it for apres-dye washing of yarns and threads, and I've never had any dye run onto other fabrics (as I use 2 old hotel towels as "balancers" in my washing machine during the spin cycle, I would know if the yarns are running by the color of the towels). Synthapol is a bit hard to locate--I purchase it from Dharma Trading Company (800/542-5227; ), but you may find it at a local weaving and dyeing shop. No, I don't work for the manufacturer or Dharma--I'm just a satisfied customer that really likes the way this product works. Dawn Jacobson DTJacobson@aol.com ------------------------------ maggiros@aol.com[18,132]CSuX:kull the fantasy Subject: Re: H-COST: Kull the fantasy From: MaggiRos@aol.com Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 17:22:15 -0400 (EDT) - -Poster: MaggiRos@aol.com In a message dated 97-09-05 20:12:54 EDT, rbarber@net-link.net (Roxann Barber) writes: > > Okay, but then they interviewed the costumer and she said it was a > fantasy, phew! I can get so confused! > > Roxy > I think it's probably safe to say the actors are not the most reliable source of costume information in a film. Well, they COULD be, but probably not. MaggiRos ------------------------------ margaret bolger [23,133]CSuX:france -antique fair Subject: H-COST: France -Antique Fair From: Margaret Bolger Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 19:37:34 -0400 - -Poster: Margaret Bolger I have been asked to forward the following information : Antique Textile Fair in France Sunday 26th October, 1997 in Vendome, France 10am - 6pm Please contact organiser direct :- Olga Verschoor 6 Rue des Coteaux, 72340 Ponce S/L loir France Tele / Fax : 00 33 243 798501 If you would like information about Antique Costume & Textile Fairs in UK= , please contact me for details. Margaret ------------------------------ margaret bolger [17,134]CSuX:antique costume fair Subject: H-COST: Antique Costume Fair From: Margaret Bolger Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 19:38:55 -0400 - -Poster: Margaret Bolger Just a reminder to you all : Antique Costume and Textiles Fair Sunday 28th September, 1997 at the Armitage Centre, Manchester UK As usual, about 70+ traders, selling all manner of costume, accessories, household textiles, books, ephemera - traders attending are mainly from U= K but there will be a number from France and Italy. For further information, get in touch with me. Margaret = ------------------------------ amy wilson [30,135]CSuX:searching for v&a beadwork photos Subject: H-COST: Searching for V&A beadwork photos From: Amy Wilson Date: 06 Sep 97 20:24:10 -0500 - -Poster: Amy Wilson Hi everyone! Me again, on the hunt for information, as always. :) In the Shire Publication called "Beadwork," by Pamela Claburn, she shows a black & white photograph of panels from ecclesiatical stoles (Germany, late 12th C.), which show the Virgin Mary and what I would guess are portraits of two of the apostles, embroidered in beads and seed pearls on parchment. The photograph is credited to the Victoria & Albert Museum. I would like to try to duplicate the beadwork, but I can only vaguely guess at the colors used. Can anyone lead me to a source that would show these pieces in color? I've checked the V&A's homepage, but they don't seem to have online photos of these particular pieces. Before I invested the long-distance charge to inquire from the V&A whether any of their publications would help, I thought I'd ask here. Thanks in advance for any help. Cheers, Amy Wilson catelin@fyi.net ------------------------------ britt [99,136]CSuX:fur cloak linings?? Subject: Re: H-COST: Fur cloak linings?? From: Britt Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 02:47:41 -0700 (PDT) - -Poster: Britt Barbara asked: > Does anyone out there have references or have any of you > seen actual historical cloaks with a fur lining? I'm most interested > in the period 1250 AD to about 1400 AD (western Europe.) I've got a lot of my local library's costuming books on my shelf, so I did some looking. Most of this is my personal intrepretation of the paintings/photos/drawings as represented in the books, mostly in b&w. When text explains the point, I'll quote. >From the book _Medieval Costume in England and France_ by Mary G. Houston - [Line-drawn representation of a figure from St.Stephen's Chapel, Westminster, dated 1350-1356. Original drawings in V&A Museum Print Room]: Young king. Fur cloak lining, possibly a vair variant, as it is mostly light with dark inverted Vs along what seem to be horizontal seam lines. If pen strokes are true to the picture, and picture was true to life, pelt lies downward from shoulder seam all around. (See better description below.) >From _A Survey of Historic Costume_ by Phyllis Tortora and Keith Eubank - [Manuscript illustration for a Bible from before 1185, photograph in B&W, courtesy of the Morgan Library]: Male. Half-circle cloak/mantle fastened on right shoulder. Text states: "The mantle of the man in the center panel is lined with fur." Ermine, light with dark taile. Seems to be in downward stripes from neck seam. Stripes are aligned vertically with all tails in neat rows. [French manuscript illustration from about 1420. B&W photograph, also courtesy of the Morgan Library]: "Two older, more conservative kings on the left from a French manuscript of about 1420 wear fur-lined mantles." Another ermine, this time in diagonal patterns via the tails. Pelt lies downward, no indication of how fur might be joined. >From _The Book of Costume_ by Millia Davenport, v.1 - [From a folio Bible, executed at St. Swithin's Priory, Winchester - this being the same as in the first illustration listed under the previous book (and which also shows the illustration I already mentioned above on the facing page), "Scenes in the life of David and Samuel". B&W photograph of illustraion]: Male. Open half-circle cloak lined in some form of vair. Blurry picture, no real way to gain better information. [Limogenes enamel memorial plate: "Geoffrey of Anjou as lawgiver". 1129-51. Mans Museum. B&W photograph of plate]: "Mantle: lined with miniver." Represented by a line-drawn vairlike outline pattern in neat horizontal and vertical symmetry. Unlike heraldic vair, these wavy Us (no pointy things, just the deep scallop of early representations) all aim up or down in neat vertical columns, with actual horizontal lines drawn between. [Barcelona, Crown Archives. Looks like a manuscript illustration. Dated XI-XIIc. B&W photograph of illustration]: Male in ermine-lined mantle, tails in diagonal rows. Female in vair-lined cloak, fuzzily represented as curved alternating U waves in dark and light shades. Classic alternating heraldic vair pattern. [From St. Stephen's Chapel, Westminster, 1350-60. Wall painting. B&W photograph of the painting.]: "Edward III: King: Not robes of majesty; but insignia of kingship assumed over dress of contemporary gentleman. Cloak, fur lined, closing on right shoulder. Shoulder cape of contemporary gentleman done in ermine; remains henceforth as insignia of kingship." Ermine is typical British Royal in fashion. Cloak lining is of scale-shaped light patches lightly defined by dark regions. Overall impression of downward aimed pelts cut into regular shape and sewn together to form lining. Seems to originate from shoulder region. ["St. John and the Philosopher Crato". Painting by Allegretto Nuzi, 1346- 1373/74. Washington National Gallery of Art. B&W photograph of painting]: "Crato wears a red cape lined in white fur; it is slit for the passage of the arms, and is necessarily split up the center-front: hood-facing and shoulder cape of fur, fringed with tails." Vairish pattern on the cape, it actually has some sort of animal tails hanging down at intervals. The cape is lined throughout in white fur. ["St. Catherine". Painting by Bernardo Daddi. Dated 1330-1340; Washington National Gallery of Art. B&W photograph of painting]: "Crown over characteristically Italian braids, martyr's palm; brown cloak; gold- embroidered, green cote-hardi; both lined with white fur which shows at the fitchet (emphasized with gold embroidery), behind her right arm." Along front edge of cloak, fur pelted downward. Same along sleeve edge of cote-hardie. > At this point, even speculation (from incomplete sources) would > help some. All I've been able to find is modern patterns. I hope my awkward and amateur analysis might be of some help to you. I also hope I included enough information... (I shall now go sit in a dark room for awhile and rest my eyes - tired but I had *fun* looking these pictures up!) - - Teceangl / Britt ------------------------------ syrilla@aol.com[11,137]CSuX:eliz. shoulder roll treatments?? Subject: H-COST: Eliz. shoulder roll treatments?? From: SyRilla@aol.com Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 11:16:23 -0400 (EDT) - -Poster: SyRilla@aol.com I am making a early Eliz. I dress, and I need suggestions on how to make the large shoulder "rolls" other than just suffing them. I will have very large sleeves. Thank you. Kimberly SyRilla@aol.com ------------------------------ margo anderson [24,138]CSuX:eliz. shoulder roll treatments?? Subject: Re: H-COST: Eliz. shoulder roll treatments?? From: Margo Anderson Date: Sat, 07 Sep 1996 11:13:49 -0700 - -Poster: Margo Anderson >I am making a early Eliz. I dress, and I need suggestions on how to make the >large shoulder "rolls" other than just suffing them. I will have very large >sleeves. Are you taslking about the decorative shoulder rolls sewn to the armholes of the bodice, or the padded rolls that go inside the sleeves to hold them out? Either way, the method of making them is the same: You cut cresent shapes whose inner diameter matches your armhole shape (A flexible curve is very useful for this) stitch, turn, and stuff. To put them inside a sleeve, fasten them to the inner seam allowances with swing tacks. To attach them to a bodice, hand stitch with strong thread. I like to use a curved upoulstery needle. Rolls can be decorated with strips of trim, pearls, etc. I've also seen them less firmly stuffed and gathered into puffs at intervals. Margo Anderson "One Tough Costumer" ------------------------------ seamstrix@juno.com[14,139]CSuX:eliz. shoulder roll treatments?? Subject: Re: H-COST: Eliz. shoulder roll treatments?? From: seamstrix@juno.com Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 13:07:44 -0700 - -Poster: seamstrix@juno.com Hello All, I believe that the Elizabethan solution involved using boning running across the rolls to give the additional support they need to be really huge. I think a light-weight boning such as feather-boning(plastic) or Rigilene would work best. Karen ------------------------------ mzscahlett@aol.com[21,140]CSuX:source for fringe Subject: Re: H-COST: source for fringe From: MzScahlett@aol.com Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 17:58:27 -0400 (EDT) - -Poster: MzScahlett@aol.com In a message dated 97-09-02 05:17:07 EDT, rognstad@stripe.Colorado.EDU (Rognstad Sylvia) writes: << Does anyone know of a source for antique looking rayon fringe, not the clunky looking stuff you can find at local fabric stores, but the really pretty lightweight stuff you find on vintage shawls? I'm looking for it in bulk at a reasonable price. Thanks. Sylvia R >> Sylvia, I've got some catalogues with some nice standard fringe at VERY reasonable prices, and the more delicate fringe at more substantial cost. I have a number of resources. If you are interested, let me know and I'll go look them all up. Angela ------------------------------ margaret rae carignan [28,141]CSuX:searching for v&a beadwork photos Subject: Re: H-COST: Searching for V&A beadwork photos From: Margaret Rae Carignan Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 19:56:37 -0300 (ADT) - -Poster: Margaret Rae Carignan Hi, Folks! Amy can try writing (not phoning) the V&A with a request for a colour slide of a photo of the piece she is interested. Explain what you want it for (if they think you're serious and are going to learn something from it, they'll reply sooner), and ask them to let you know the cost in advance. This is a fairly slow process, but most museums will comply happily to a professionally-worded scholarly request. There is usually a copying fee plus postage (around $10.00 U.S. would be normal) for this service, but you will usually get the best quality image this way. You can then have the slide blown up - our local art college will do a colour photcopy for $1.00, but the colour is tricky. Make sure that whoever reproduces the photo knows their stuff. I would love to hear about this project, since beading and religious iconography are two of my interests. Good Luck! Meg/Francesca ------------------------------ margaret rae carignan [30,142]CSuX:eliz. shoulder roll treatments?? Subject: Re: H-COST: Eliz. shoulder roll treatments?? From: Margaret Rae Carignan Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 20:15:09 -0300 (ADT) - -Poster: Margaret Rae Carignan Howdy! I have used the patterns in Janet Arnold to adapt the shoulder rolls that are slashed. I sew each tab section with cover, lining, and canvas. It is easier to sew these by hand than to machine them and 'bag them out' (turning something that small inside out with canvas in it is HARD!). They can also be decorated by hand. I then set them into the armhole, basting them into place before setting in the sleeve or finishing the armhole in the case of detachable sleeves. The canvas provides enough stiffness that a tapered tube of fabric, which makes the puffs beween the tabs, is sufficient to "stuff" the roll. I have never used boning in them, but that is certainly a possiblility worth investigating. By the way, the seam allowance at the armhole does tend to be bulky, but if the whole allowance is turned toward the bodice when pressing, this helps to push the roll out toward the arm. Grading should be done carefully because if the canvas is trimmed too close to the stitching, the stiff fabric may push against the stitching, causing the seam to gape. Let us know how it turns out. Meg/Francesca ------------------------------ frances grimble [21,143]CSuX:victorian polka workshop in san francisco bay area Subject: H-COST: Victorian Polka Workshop in San Francisco Bay Area From: Frances Grimble Date: Sun, 07 Sep 1997 18:28:02 -0700 - -Poster: Frances Grimble Victorian Polka Workshop On Monday October 20, from 8 to 10 p.m., Allan Terry and Frances Grimble will teach a workshop in late Victorian polka for the Pomander Club. The workshop will include all the steps and choreography from an 1897 Edison film, which we researched frame by frame. The style shows the transition from Victorian to ragtime, and includes polka variations unfamiliar to most vintage dancers. You do not need a partner to attend. The Pomander Club is located at: Masonic Temple (second floor) 461 Florence Avenue (near University) Palo Alto, CA For more information call Stan Isaacs at 415/858-2568. ------------------------------ frances grimble [11,144]CSuX:american civil war mailing list Subject: H-COST: American Civil War mailing list From: Frances Grimble Date: Sun, 07 Sep 1997 18:38:14 -0700 - -Poster: Frances Grimble There used to be a mailing list for American Civil War reenactors. Does anyone know what their current email address is? Thanks, Fran Grimble ------------------------------ maggiros@aol.com[17,145]CSuX:eliz. shoulder roll treatments?? Subject: Re: H-COST: Eliz. shoulder roll treatments?? From: MaggiRos@aol.com Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 22:06:34 -0400 (EDT) - -Poster: MaggiRos@aol.com In a message dated 97-09-07 14:16:21 EDT, seamstrix@juno.com writes: > > I believe that the Elizabethan solution involved using boning running > across the rolls to give the additional support they need to be really > huge. I think a light-weight boning such as feather-boning(plastic) or > Rigilene would work best. There's a set in the Janet Arnold Elizabethan book that does just that. I haven't tried it, but it must work! MaggiRos ------------------------------ vbetts@gower.net (vicki betts)[27,146]CSuX:american civil war mailing list Subject: Re: H-COST: American Civil War mailing list From: vbetts@gower.net (vicki betts) Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 22:20:47 -0500 (CDT) - -Poster: vbetts@gower.net (vicki betts) At 06:38 PM 9/7/97 -0700, Frances Grimble wrote: >-Poster: Frances Grimble > >There used to be a mailing list for American Civil War reenactors. Does >anyone know what their current email address is? > >Thanks, > >Fran Grimble We're still a very active list, currently getting ready for the reenactment at Antietam next weekend. To subs*ribe, send a message to: cw-reenactors-request@world.std.com. Al will verify that you do indeed want to subs*ribe (we've had some problems a couple of times with prank subs*riptions), and then you're in. We've had some very spirited and well-informed discussions of both military and civilian clothing from time to time. Vicki Betts Texas Rifles and LSFS vbetts@gower.net ------------------------------ mrs c s yeldham [20,147]CSuX:headgear Subject: H-COST: Headgear From: Mrs C S Yeldham Date: 08 Sep 97 12:00:00 GMT - -Poster: Mrs C S Yeldham Couple of quick comments - on checking, the portrait I referred to is Katherine Parr, not Howard and she is definitely wearing a coif with a wired front edge decorated with pearls. It also has a pleated band worn over the hair under the coif. On 17th century headgear - yes, she definitely has to wear a coif, no way out of it for a reputable woman (prostitutes, maidens (but even they wear their hair down with a coif over it) and queens on their wedding day (well, in the 16th century anyway)). If she is getting too hot and there is nowhere indoors or under a tree to go, she could try a straw hat, with a broad brim, to give some shade. Straw hats were very common. Caroline ------------------------------ dona murzyn [10,148]CSuX:4 ply silk Subject: H-COST: 4 ply silk From: Dona Murzyn Date: Mon, 08 Sep 1997 07:32:01 -0700 - -Poster: Dona Murzyn I am working on a garment of 4 ply silk that I needed to rip a seam out of. My problem is that the seam is now visable. Does anyone know how to get the needle marks out? I've tried pressing with a hot iron with no luck. I've tried pressing with a damp cloth with no luck. Help!! ------------------------------ kate pinner [28,149]CSuX:eliz. shoulder roll treatments?? Subject: Re: H-COST: Eliz. shoulder roll treatments?? From: kate pinner Date: Mon, 08 Sep 1997 09:00:11 -0500 - -Poster: kate pinner One technique I've used (not authentic) is to sew a layer of batting into the garment (sleeve puffs, hem puffs, etc.) I just serge the batting along with the material - sort of a thick interfacing. Then it turns inside and I either leave it not too stuffed or if it needs more then other stuffing doesn't show through -- like if the outside fabric is white, or silk. I makes a smoother stuffed piece. Kate > >I am making a early Eliz. I dress, and I need suggestions on how to make the > >large shoulder "rolls" other than just suffing them. I will have very large > >sleeves. > > Are you taslking about the decorative shoulder rolls sewn to the armholes of > the bodice, or the padded rolls that go inside the sleeves to hold them out? > > Either way, the method of making them is the same: You cut cresent shapes > whose inner diameter matches your armhole shape (A flexible curve is very > useful for this) stitch, turn, and stuff. To put them inside a sleeve, > fasten them to the inner seam allowances with swing tacks. To attach them > to a bodice, hand stitch with strong thread. I like to use a curved > upoulstery needle. Rolls can be decorated with strips of trim, pearls, etc. ------------------------------ betsy marks [39,150]CSuX:the costume con fifteen website has pictures! Subject: H-COST: The Costume Con Fifteen Website has PICTURES! From: Betsy Marks Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 12:19:34 -0400 - -Poster: Betsy Marks If you have no interest in Costume Con Fifteen, please delete this message - - I apologize for the wasted bandwidth. To all who might be interested: After about two weeks of dedicated scanning, editing and HTML coding, I am happy to announce that photos of the entries in the Historical and Science Fiction/Fantasy masquerades, $1.98 contest, Future Fashion Show & Single Pattern contest, and Hall Costume Worst Pun winners are all available through: www.access.digex.net/~betsy/CCXV/award.html Also, for those of you who might have registered as Supporting members, your packets are now prepared, and should be hitting the post office on Monday - sorry for the delay. And, finally, we hope to be shipping video tape orders by the end of September/beginning of October. If you would like more information about the convention, please check out our website at: www.access.digex.net/~betsy/CCXV - -Betsy Marks Chair & Webmistress Costume Con Fifteen/CCXV betsy@access.digex.net or marks@umbi.umd.edu Pursuant to US Code Title 47, Ch 5, Subch 2, _227, unsolicited commercial Email received at this address is subject to a US$500 download and archival fee. By Emailing such, you agree to these terms. ------------------------------ mara riley [11,151]CSuX:headgear Subject: Re: H-COST: Headgear From: Mara Riley Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 13:47:29 -0400 (EDT) - -Poster: Mara Riley Speaking of headgear -- what's the status of headgear for women in the 18th Century? Did all women wear caps/kercheifs of some sort? Corbie ------------------------------ henk t jong [62,152]CSuX:mangling Subject: Re: H-COST: mangling From: "Henk 't Jong" Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 17:40:57 +0200 - -Poster: "Henk 't Jong" Henk & Pauline 't Jong tScapreel Medieval Advisors Dordrecht, Netherlands Hi all, Judy wrote: > Oh, to the person who asked about digging up the coffins to find out about > fur linings... there is a fancy term for graverobbing, called archeology! ;-) > (sorry, it comes from a signature line of an archeologist, and I loved it). Overhere they do the same and call themselves similar names. One aspect of archeology is that it destroys what has been buried under the ground for centuries. So some of them also say about themselves that if they didn't have a permit to dig somewhere, they would have been arrested for vandalism. > Birka Sweden is known for its preserved area of an old (back to Viking Age) > market and cemetary area. Archeologists, under state supervision, are always > digging up areas to write artices about them. I didn't realize that there was > stuff as late as medieval era there. Neat. Over in the Netherlands medieval (and even later) archeology is not such a strange phenomenon anymore. In the city where I live, the oldest of the province of Holland, people have been digging in several places in the towncentre since 1970. Right now a large dig takes place which discovered a row of craftsmens houses dating to the 14th c, whinch have been built on or added to time after time until the 19th c. They were torn down in 1960. One of them housed a needle and pins-maker in the late 14th c and a lot of very fine brass needles and pins were found. No cloth has come to light yet, but then not all refuse- and cesspits have been searched to the bottom yet. The peaty soil however takes care of destroying most wool and linen cloth, so there is not much hope of finding any. In the UK and Scandinavia it has been a common practice as well for some time. Germany and Belgium tend to stick with churches, monasteries and castles, what France does I have no information about. Just trying to keep you informed, Henk ------------------------------ End of h-costume-digest V1 #64 ****************************** h-costume-digest-approval@world.std.com (h-costume-digest)[38,153]CSuX:h-costume-digest v1 #65 Subject: h-costume-digest V1 #65 From: h-costume-digest-approval@world.std.com (h-costume-digest) Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 10:26:41 -0400 (EDT) h-costume-digest Friday, September 12 1997 Volume 01 : Number 065 In this issue: RE: H-COST: Headgear Re: H-COST: Headgear Re: H-COST: Headgear Re: H-COST: mangling the digging Re: H-COST: Headgear H-COST: re: 17th cent. head covering Re: H-COST: Headgear-> ~1770 BIG hair H-COST: Anne of Cleves gown Re: H-COST: Headgear Re: H-COST: Headgear-> ~1770 BIG hair Re: H-COST: 4 ply silk Re: H-COST: kilt attire H-COST: EH?? H-COST: Back to fur H-COST: Embroidery on Tunics H-COST: Help H-COST: historical needlework H-COST: Problem with List? Re: H-COST: Help H-COST: mangle question H-COST: graverobbing/archaeology H-COST: Thanks for C17th Headgear help H-COST: Sources for fringe Re: H-COST: mangle question Re: H-COST: EH?? Re: H-COST: EH?? Re: H-COST: Embroidery on Tunics Re: H-COST: mangling H-COST: PIO PICO FANDANGO UPDATE ---------------------------------------------------------------------- dunham patricia r [71,154]CSuX:headgear Subject: RE: H-COST: Headgear From: DUNHAM Patricia R Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 12:14:00 -0700 - -Poster: DUNHAM Patricia R Caroline almost said it... I was going to suggest a straw hat with the bottom edge of a coif stitched to it, so it LOOKS like it's a "coif with straw hat over" but she doesn't actually have the layer of fabric over the top of her head inside the hat. I've worn rather heavy cotton gauze veiling with a large straw hat over it for years at summer events in the US (yes, SCA; but I can't FIND veiling weight linen, and am a bit too rough-n-ready (read klutzy) for silk veiling, which -is- available here the last 5 years or so) and it's amazing how relatively cool it can be... just keeping the sun off your hair, and/or the material keeps the heat from building up around your head. (Am always surprised when I come inside in the summer and put my hands on my hair... if it's been out uncovered in the sun, it gets HOT!, even when hanging loose.) (Also helps that the hat will help hold the veil with much less resort to fillets, circlets, etc. -- gets that constricting band off your head, too.) The hats we're currently using come from China via the garden store, low crown and very wide circular brim (may be more than 12 inches from the crown to the edge); very stiff, not floppy at all-- they'd probably make good over-size frisbees! 8-) They do look VERY like the rural types you often see in harvest and agricultural scenes In really desperate cases, or if she's not allowed the partial coif fudge, perhaps she could arrange to dampen the coif at regular intervals? or her hair? If her hair is very thick, but short, perhaps her regular hairdresser could cut it with those special scissors that thin the hair, just for over the summer? Patricia R. Dunham - Eugene Public - 100 W 13th Ave - 97401 patricia.r.dunham@ci.eugene.or.us - 541-984-8321 http://204.203.17.34/library (EPL) <<<>>> http://members.aol.com/gerekr/medieval.html (home) ---------- | From: Mrs C S Yeldham | To: h-costume@world.std.com | Subject: H-COST: Headgear | Date: Monday, September 08, 1997 5:00AM | | -Poster: Mrs C S Yeldham | | Couple of quick comments - on checking, the portrait I referred to is | Katherine Parr, not Howard and she is definitely wearing a coif with a | wired front edge decorated with pearls. It also has a pleated band worn | over the hair under the coif. | | On 17th century headgear - yes, she definitely has to wear a coif, no way | out of it for a reputable woman (prostitutes, maidens (but even they wear | their hair down with a coif over it) and queens on their wedding day (well, | in the 16th century anyway)). | | If she is getting too hot and there is nowhere indoors or under a tree to | go, she could try a straw hat, with a broad brim, to give some shade. | Straw hats were very common. | | Caroline | ------------------------------ deb [26,155]CSuX:headgear Subject: Re: H-COST: Headgear From: Deb Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 15:55:35 -0500 - -Poster: Deb >Speaking of headgear -- >what's the status of headgear for women in the 18th Century? Did all >women wear caps/kercheifs of some sort? Remember folks, that there is a biblical injunction (read "command") stating that a woman must keep her head covered. Most European countries were nominally-Christian (trying not to start religion war here) and put a great deal of emphasis on this command. It's only in the last century that people have begun to interpret this command as pertaining to Paul's New Testament culture, in which a head-covering for women mattered. And that therefore the command may not be binding in a culture where no shame is attached to a bare head. Maybe. Note that some groups still keep the head covered (Mennonite, Amish come to mind). Deb Baddorf baddorf@fnal.gov ------------------------------ seamstrix@juno.com[24,156]CSuX:headgear Subject: Re: H-COST: Headgear From: seamstrix@juno.com Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 15:51:47 -0700 - -Poster: seamstrix@juno.com Hello All, Yes, as far as I can tell, all women covered their heads up until well into this century. Even as late as the '50's a really well dressed woman had her hat and gloves. I think the '60's were what finally killed off hat wearing as a social requirement. But really, it's not that bad. Most eras have a minimal little cap which will serve to preserve modesty. I never wear a hat in day to day life(and in Chicago winters I get some odd looks being bare-headed in all but the coldest temps) but with my costumes I really enjoy the finishing touch they lend. Anyone who can make a dress from the era, should be able to whip up a suitable hat to go with it. 18th century caps can be really easy if you aren't going for the ridiculous court confections. May I recommend 'Patterns for Period Impressions-18th Century Caps and Pockets' Period Impressions #815? It cost me @$5.00 at a rendezvous in Lafayette Indiana(Feast of the Hunter's Moon- Oct. 4-5) but many places offer them. Karen ------------------------------ trekona@erols.com[20,157]CSuX:mangling the digging Subject: Re: H-COST: mangling the digging From: trekona@erols.com Date: Tue, 09 Sep 97 02:48:49 GMT - -Poster: trekona@erols.com > Henk wrote: >No cloth has come to light yet, but >then not all refuse- and cesspits have been searched to the bottom yet. The >peaty soil however takes care of destroying most wool and linen cloth, so >there is not much hope of finding any. Linen I could see not finding, since it is hardly every found at the digs; but I would be surprised if they didn't find *any* wool! I thought that the very nature of the peat in the peat bogs (well, ok: the high tannin in it) was what was responsible for so much wool surviving. Unfortunately the same element that saves wool eats linen to non-existence so finding both is exceedingly rare. Anyway, you must have seen some examples of 'mangling boards' that I have seen in museums - they are long, flattish with rounded corners and handles in the middle of the top. -Judy Mitchell ------------------------------ carol kocian [46,158]CSuX:headgear Subject: Re: H-COST: Headgear From: "Carol Kocian" Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 23:25:02 -0500 - -Poster: "Carol Kocian" Corbie wrote, >Speaking of headgear -- >what's the status of headgear for women in the 18th Century? Did all >women wear caps/kercheifs of some sort? Now there's a trick question - first you're asking about the *entire* 18thC, and you're asking did *all* women wear caps. That's right up there with the always's and the nevers! Through most of the 18thc (first 3/4) caps were generally worn. The milleners at Williamsburg stated it as: a woman dressed her head, and the simplest way to do this is to wear a cap. At fancy occasions the head was dressed with more elaborate hairstyles and adorned with pearls, feathers, flowers, ribbons, etc. etc. There are diaries and letters from the mid to RevWar period of the 18thC that say American women do not wear caps as often as European women do. I don't recall if they say whether the hair is otherwise dressed. An undressed head (in Europe) would indicate a low class woman. As the 18thC closed, the Regency, Federal, or Directorie styles appeared. They didn't suddenly happen at the turn of the century! Fashion plates of that era show some heads without caps, occasional short hair, and styled bangs or fringe. The mid century to Rev War period saw some different cap styles. General trends are a horseshoe-shaped back piece, a band, and a ruffle in the front. The "ruffle" could be gathered, pleated, or flat. The "mob cap" style that is a circle gathered to fit the head with a self-ruffle actually did not exist until after the Rev War period. No proof has been found for it. A kerchief, in the period, is the triangular (or square folded into a triangle) piece that goes around the neck and can conceal the shoulders and the chest. There are illustrations of female slaves wearing turbans or what we would consider a wraped kerchief, though they also wore caps. -Carol ------------------------------ kate m bunting [18,159]CSuX:17th cent. head covering Subject: H-COST: re: 17th cent. head covering From: KATE M BUNTING Date: Tue, 09 Sep 1997 09:31:39 +0000 - -Poster: KATE M BUNTING Hilma - I agree with what has been said. Surely the fact that your friend's hair is short would be the main reason for wearing a coif? Mine is SO thick and strong that it simply would not be practical for everyday life to wear it long, so I always cover it when wearing 17th cent. costume in the public eye. What I really wanted to ask is - can you tell us more about this re-enactment village? It's the first I've heard of it. Where exactly is it? There was talk a few years ago of the Sealed Knot acquiring a permanent site, but nothing came of it. Kate Bunting King's Lifeguard of Foote, Sealed Knot ------------------------------ mite2@aloha.net[24,160]CSuX:headgear-> ~1770 big hair Subject: Re: H-COST: Headgear-> ~1770 BIG hair From: mite2@aloha.net Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 11:19:00 -0400 - -Poster: mite2@aloha.net This is ~200+ years out of my period so please excuse me if it's a really dumb question. The other day I was looking at a book on hairstyles and started wondering about the big hair of the late 18th century. --The ones that were reportedly 3 feet and higher and had garden scenes, fully rigged models of ships, etc. placed in them as decoration. Although I've read many translations of what are supposedly contemporary descriptions and seen many caricatures, it struck me that I've never seen any portraiture depicting them. Big bows, flowers, and plumes yes, but no elaborate "scenery" or models. Since it was supposedly a very fashionable thing to do (albeit for a relatively short period) wouldn't there be portraits of women with such hair? Or was it not really all that popular or stylish? Or am I just looking in the wrong places? Mia ------------------------------ mike newell <72123.411@compuserve.com>[50,161]CSuX:anne of cleves gown Subject: H-COST: Anne of Cleves gown From: Mike Newell <72123.411@compuserve.com> Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 14:43:56 -0400 - -Poster: Mike Newell <72123.411@compuserve.com> Dear Henk- I came in on the tail end of a thread about how that Anne of Cleves gown fastens. I really enjoyed your message, and wanted to add my two cents, of course! I have known several people who have made this dress (most of them SCA, like me) and they have made it as a wrap gown. It works very well. As you pointed out, the trim hanging down the front matches that on the open edges of her sleeves, so I think that indicates an opening edge. I agree with you this is an eccentric gown. I have seen examples of front opening bodices in some French, Flemish, and English early 16th century dresses. It's something you can often whiz right by on unless you're looking for it. Jane Seymore's famous portrait seems to show a front opening bodice and there is a painting of Eleanor of Toledo c.1550 in a rose red satin gown that shows a front opening to her bodice. Milia Davenport's "The Book of Costume" has a plate of someone wearing a gown and headdress which look remarkably like Anne of Cleves. Figure 1067 has a caption of: "1523-30. German. (Frankfort-on-Main, Stadel Inst.) Portrait of a Patrician. Bartholmaues Bruyn, elder" The portrait shows a woman wearing an outfit similar to Anne's. The small size of the figure makes it difficult to see any details on the sleeves, and it is in black and white. I'd love to see the rest of it! Her chemise is finely gathered (like those in paintings by Cranach) into a high band collar. Her gown is curious to me, and seems to be a hybrid between the classic Saxony style shown by Cranach, and a view of things to come? I am fascinated by the headdress. I've always understood it to be several layers, and I have seen various Germanic portraits showing variations on the headdress. From what I can make out, the gauzy part is starched or wired. The back corners are pinned up, most likely, to the cap. The outer parts of the caps seem to vary from horse shoe shapes to hard edged crescents. I knew a lady once who made it as a rounded melon shape and it worked fine. Thank you for sharing your thoughts with us, especially as they gave me a chance to ramble on. - --Kathryn ------------------------------ mara riley [24,162]CSuX:headgear Subject: Re: H-COST: Headgear From: Mara Riley Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 16:55:52 -0400 (EDT) - -Poster: Mara Riley On Mon, 8 Sep 1997, Carol Kocian wrote: > >Speaking of headgear -- > >what's the status of headgear for women in the 18th Century? Did all > >women wear caps/kercheifs of some sort? > > Now there's a trick question - first you're asking about the > *entire* 18thC, and you're asking did *all* women wear caps. That's right > up there with the always's and the nevers! (snip) Carol, Actually, all that information was VERY helpful. I appreciate the rather comprehensive answer, as it answers several other questions at the back of my mind which I hadn't quite formulated yet. Thanks, Corbie ------------------------------ albertcat@aol.com[15,163]CSuX:headgear-> ~1770 big hair Subject: Re: H-COST: Headgear-> ~1770 BIG hair From: AlbertCat@aol.com Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 02:22:35 -0400 (EDT) - -Poster: AlbertCat@aol.com Dear Mia, I think the ship on one's head thing is a fashion like...oh, dying one's hair magenta & piercing your bottom lip is now. You see it but it's not really the norm. I have seen it for real in the awful movie "Revolution" & in the excellent book "The Revolution in Fashion" there is a ball gown topped off w/ a ship. With the proper regalia below [a huge panier gown] it doesn't look all that ridiculous....but kinda cute in an over the top way. Albert Cat ------------------------------ maggiros@aol.com[29,164]CSuX:4 ply silk Subject: Re: H-COST: 4 ply silk From: MaggiRos@aol.com Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 03:45:29 -0400 (EDT) - -Poster: MaggiRos@aol.com In a message dated 97-09-08 07:34:24 EDT, dmurzyn@pobox.upenn.edu (Dona Murzyn) writes: > > I am working on a garment of 4 ply silk that I needed to rip a seam out > of. My problem is that the seam is now visable. Does anyone know how > to get the needle marks out? I've tried pressing with a hot iron with > no luck. I've tried pressing with a damp cloth with no luck. Help!! > :) Stay low and keep moving! ? Where and how visible is the seam? How prominently displayed is the wearer? Honestly, it may sound like a joke, but I'm quite serious. A lot of errors/flaws are waay more visible to you than to anyone else, including some that should be plain as a cliche to the most casual passerby. If you aren't sitting for a portrait, maybe no one will notice unless you point it out! I once made an Irish jacket (ionar) where the flounce came out a full inch (I swear... it was a long time ago) longer at one center edge than the other. But my friend David had a tendency to stand with one hip cocked, and even close up, it always lined up perfectly. Weird-but-True Costume Fact. MaggiRos ------------------------------ paul c. dickie [26,165]CSuX:kilt attire Subject: Re: H-COST: kilt attire From: "Paul C. Dickie" Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 11:28:18 -0400 - -Poster: "Paul C. Dickie" In article <970906093330_1261128571@emout18.mail.aol.com>, AlbertCat@aol.com wrote: >In a message dated 97-09-06 05:45:20 EDT, Pastimpres@aol.com writes: > ><< What type of coat, vest, shirt, tie ensemble would have been worn with a > highland kilt in the late Victorian period? >> > >Try a Norfolk Jacket....y'know tweed or houndstooth. It's a great >look....sporty....& popular [as kilts go] up into the 1920s & 1930s. My >mind's eye keeps seeing Nigel Bruce in a kilt & Norfolk jacket. But Norfolk jackets tend to be cut rather longer than a lounge coat and are cut square at the front; both of those features would surely make access to one's sporran not a little awkward. - - -- < Paul > ------------------------------ bronwens@aol.com[11,166]CSuX:eh?? Subject: H-COST: EH?? From: BronwenS@aol.com Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 20:28:26 -0400 (EDT) - -Poster: BronwenS@aol.com For the last two or three days, I've only gotten a couple of list messages a day...am I being short sheeted?? Or is everybody gone?? Bronwen {hates cobwebs in her mail box} ------------------------------ mrs c s yeldham [107,167]CSuX:back to fur Subject: H-COST: Back to fur From: Mrs C S Yeldham Date: 11 Sep 97 10:20:00 GMT - -Poster: Mrs C S Yeldham I don't really want to get into this in detail again, but I will just answer a couple of points Irene made: Irene leNoir posted >I have read some of these studies. From what I can decipher of the = >scientific jargon, these conclusions are based on samples of certain = >atmospheric gases trapped in ice core samples. The thing that jumps = >out at me from this is the fact that they are getting these samples = >from ice cores. In order to obtain an ice core sample, you have to = >go somewhere where it remains below freezing year-round, and has = >remained below freezing for hundreds (to thousands) of years. Any = >region that fits this description (usually polar regions) probably = >has not varied as much in temperature in the last several hundred = >years as areas that are warmer. The gases are trapped from the atmosphere, and bodies of atmospheric gas move around the globe much more than ice or other solid bodies. One point to remember is that we are dealing in ranges of temperatures here and averaging them out - just like average height, just because men's average height may be 5'11", doesn't mean to say you won't get men over 6' or under 5' in the population. >I have also been informed of research (I'm sorry, I don't have the = >citations) into changes in food crops that were grown and breeds of = >domestic animals that were kept, and what these changes say about = >climate. Since food in the 15th and 16th century England is my particular area of interest I would be interested in evidence that the crops or breeds were changing due to climate in this period, I haven't seen it. There are certain years or periods of crop failures eg in the 1590s but those can be quoted from any century. >I will admit, I erred in stating that "climates were a lot colder". = >I should have said that climates were cooler. >(correlated to some rather doubtful social effects) >What do you mean by this? Working from memory (details should be in the archives) a book was quoted which correlated and assumed causality of periods of poorer weather with political instability and war, for example the English Civil War (1640s) was correlated with a dip in average temperatures. The periods of instability were carefully chosen, and equally unstable periods ignored because they didn't fit the thesis. For example, the early to mid 17th century was apparently a 'good' period for weather, but 1618 to 1648 is the period of one of the most disastrous wars in Western Europe (30 Years War). > so *please* do not assume that Western Europe was >substantially colder then than now. >I am not assuming. It is what I have always been taught, and I = >belive it, for a variety of reasons. There always seems to be a confusion between the great Ice Ages, and this 'mini Ice Age of late medieval/early modern Europe, and descriptions of one get confused with descriptions of the other. It doesn't, of course, tally with the developments in the social, cultural and technological life of Western Europe. >It always echoes the 'nasty, brutish >and short' view of the medieval world to me! >I'm sorry that you find the idea of cooler temperatures to be such a = >negative one. I personally prefer cooler weather. No, I like cooler temperatures. What I'm referring to is the impact of climate change on agriculture, and therefore people's living standards. If the agriculture cannot cope with the change in temperature then there will be crop failures and animal diseases, and people will starve or leave the area. I'm just very wary about either the 'Merrie England' or the 'everything was horrible' views of medieval/early modern England and Europe - I think it was a great deal more complicated than that. >Turning to the real question, if we didn't have central heating, centrally >heated cars and modern water-repelling fabrics, I'd turn to furs for = warmth >and water-repelling properties in England's weather (even some summer >days), never mind on the Continent. >Yes, on cold winter days or wet and/or cold summer ones. However, I = >flat out refuse to believe that any sane person would choose to wear = >a fur lined houppelande on a clear August day, while engaging in = >moderate activity, if the day in question is at all similiar to what = >we experience today. See the August plate of Les Tres Riches Heures. Is anyone claiming fur lined gowns were worn everyday? The version of the August plate I've got access to isn't very clear, but it looks like a normal sunny summer's day. The people in it are evidently wearing lined clothes, but they don't have to be lined with fur; there is plenty of contemporary (English as that's what I've researched) evidence for lining with silk (usually black) and linen (often Hollands, so probably white). If you are interested, have a look through the Richard III Society Homepage (http://www.r3.org/) as they have quite a lot of 15th century documents on line, including Edward IV's final accounts and Elizabeth of Yorks 1501 accounts. Caroline ------------------------------ ashildr of ragnesfolke [24,168]CSuX:embroidery on tunics Subject: H-COST: Embroidery on Tunics From: Ashildr of Ragnesfolke Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 08:11:44 -0400 (EDT) - -Poster: Ashildr of Ragnesfolke Greetings to all! I'm new to the list and I've been enjoying reading everyone's posts, and now I have a question of my own to ask...I got a book of Celtic embroidery patterns and I wanted to make an embroidered tunic. My questions are : what kind of tunic would be appropriate to this embroidery? How did the Celts cut tunics, where were they pieced, where would the embroidery be placed, what kind of neckline would they have? Thank you very much! - -Lara Olstad /\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\ Mundane: Lara Olstad SCA : Ashildr Shinkicker of Ragnesfolke -------------->Page at : http://www.rpi.edu/~olstal<--------------- RPI, Class of 1999, Computer and Systems Engineering "So little of what we observe is the girl herself." -My Dying Bride ------------------------------ tony immarco [16,169]CSuX:help Subject: H-COST: Help From: tony Immarco Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 11:32:17 -0400 - -Poster: tony Immarco I am interested in the general appearance of the costume for Apache dancers, male and female. I believe this dance originated in Europe about the 18th or 19th century. If I could be pointed in right direction I would appreciate it. I need a source which can provide me with an approximate image of the costumes. Thanks. Tony I ------------------------------ charlene charette [15,170]CSuX:historical needlework Subject: H-COST: historical needlework From: Charlene Charette Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 11:37:56 -0400 - -Poster: Charlene Charette Sorry if this is a duplicate post. I had a slight problem with my mailer and wasn't sure if it went out... The historical needlework list is now open. To subscribe, send a message to majordomo@ansteorra.org with "subscribe h-needlework" in the body. - --Charlene ------------------------------ stacey_weinberger@cabelsmtp.wadsworth.com[13,171]CSuX:problem with list? Subject: H-COST: Problem with List? From: Stacey_Weinberger@cabelsmtp.wadsworth.com Date: 11 Sep 97 10:01:26 - -Poster: Stacey_Weinberger@cabelsmtp.wadsworth.com Greetings All, I haven't received any mail from the list since 9/7. Is there a problem or is it only me? Thanks! Stacey ------------------------------ frances grimble [37,172]CSuX:help Subject: Re: H-COST: Help From: Frances Grimble Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 11:34:43 -0700 - -Poster: Frances Grimble tony Immarco wrote: > > -Poster: tony Immarco > > I am interested in the general appearance of the costume for Apache > dancers, male and female. I believe this dance originated in Europe about > the 18th or 19th century. If I could be pointed in right direction I would > appreciate it. I need a source which can provide me with an approximate > image of the costumes. Thanks. The Apache I know is not really a dance but a stage act of the ragtime era. Its leading performer was Maurice Mouvet, and he discusses it in his 1915 _Maurice's Art of Dancing_. I have the manual but do not have time to go through it now. I have done the Apache in a vintage dance workshop as reconstructed by Carol Teten, a well-known vintage dance instructor. The plot line is that of a Parisian pimp (the Apache) and his prostitute. He slaps and drags her around for a while (this being a stage act, they fake it) to get her to give him her earnings. Eventually he drags her into a dance which, curiously enough, is a waltz--you'd expect a tango. The waltz includes a flashy and interesting variation, which, called the "whirl," was done by other performers in other stage acts that had nothing to do with the Apache. The woman hangs entirely suspended by her arms from the man's neck (he does not hold her at all), then as I recall he suspends her by the waist and she does not hold him at all. The Apache was shocking at the time and is very un-PC today. About half the workshop particpants refused to do it and one woman who did do it was so upset she threw up in the ladies' room afterward. Fran Grimble ------------------------------ pulliam@acadia.net (deborah pulliam)[26,173]CSuX:mangle question Subject: H-COST: mangle question From: pulliam@acadia.net (Deborah Pulliam) Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 14:57:59 -0500 - -Poster: pulliam@acadia.net (Deborah Pulliam) << I remember my mother explaining a "mangle" to me -- we must have seen one in a junk store or used appliance store -- that it was used for ironing sheets. This was an electric appliance that you would sit at and run the sheets thru'. This would have been in the late 50's. We both thought that was pretty funny as we didn't iron sheets and didn't know anyone who did except my grandmother. >> My mother had one of these as well, bought in the 1940s, and not discarded (wish she hadn't) until the late 60s. It was about the size of a chest freezer (five feet wide, four feet high), had a metal case that opened, and you sat in front of it on a chair to work. I think the rollers were hard rubber, but maybe they were metal, because I know they heated up. Believe it or not, you could iron almost anything with it--I can remember watching a skilled woman iron a man's shirt on it, and the shirt came out looking perfect (unlike what comes back from the laundry these days.) Deborah ------------------------------ pulliam@acadia.net (deborah pulliam)[19,174]CSuX:graverobbing/archaeology Subject: H-COST: graverobbing/archaeology From: pulliam@acadia.net (Deborah Pulliam) Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 14:58:08 -0500 - -Poster: pulliam@acadia.net (Deborah Pulliam) <<> Oh, to the person who asked about digging up the coffins to find out about fur linings... there is a fancy term for graverobbing, called archeology! ;-) (sorry, it comes from a signature line of an archeologist, and I loved it). >> Not all the old clothing has actually been dug up--some comes from family vaults (in particular, I'm thinking of the d'Medici family), so no one has actually dug up a coffin--they're simply removed from a vault, and then replaced. Deborah ------------------------------ hilma miles [25,175]CSuX:thanks for c17th headgear help Subject: H-COST: Thanks for C17th Headgear help From: hilma MILES Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 15:25:43 -0400 - -Poster: hilma MILES Hi all - = Just to thank for the many helpful comments re 17thC headgear. I've jus= t seen my friend, and passed on the accumulated printouts, with which she i= s most impressed. = The practical stuff is much appreciated - and especially Debs comment , <= < =2E... that there is a biblical injunction...>> which (I'm ashamed to say= , but we're new at this game) we didn't know. = thanks again - = Hilma (and Eve) ------------------------------ mzscahlett@aol.com[70,176]CSuX:sources for fringe Subject: H-COST: Sources for fringe From: MzScahlett@aol.com Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 15:49:18 -0400 (EDT) - -Poster: MzScahlett@aol.com Okay, here goes. I've pulled all my trim catalogues out and this is what I've found. Note that the items mentioned below the sources are what is shown in the catalogues, but many of these manufacturers will do specialty orders, and have much larger inventories than shown in their catalogues. To Sylvia & Ginsco Ginsco Trims 242 West 38th Street New York, NY 10018 212-719-4871 1-800-929-2529 3" Chainette ("standard fringe") 2.99/yd several varieties of lovely hand knotted fringes 11.99/yd -black or black/gold 5" rayon fringe (tassel design) black/white/ivory 5.99/yd there are assorted smaller fringes (1-2" in length with tassels, designs, beads) Stardust Galleries 46 Clement Street Glen Cove, 11542 516-759-9198 fax 516-759-3661 beautiful beaded fringes; all very expensive (11-50.00/yd) 1/2 - 4" in length Sidney Coe Co. State Hwy 36 East Airport Plaza Hazlet, NJ 07730 732-739-1168 hand-knotted & beaded fringes ($?) Kahaner 484 Sunrise Highway Rockville Center New York NY 11570 516-766-6363 Glitz! 801 Bayou Pines Drive Lake Charles, Louisiana 70601 1-800-344-5480 1-318-478-3304 Order Fax: 318-494-0862 this is THE source for sequins. Their catalogue shows a huge, flashy selection of beaded fringes (as well as a line of belly dancing fringe sets). Their minimum order is $150.00, but their sequin appliques are spectacular and well worth the wholesale prices if bought in bulk. Baum's Inc. 106 S. 11th Street Philadelphia, PA 19107 1-800-832-6246 You must have a business license/school affiliation to shop here. This is a dance wear catalogue, but they carry a huge line of really cheap chainette. They have every color imaginable, from 2" to 32" in length. Their prices are unbeatable, for example, their 6"in chainette is 2.89/yd, in my local discount fabric store is is almost $12. Just threw this in for those of you who might have a need for standard fringe. Anyway, most of these sources are from the Whole Costumer's Catalogue, which any of you who costume should obtain. It is MY bible. Angela ------------------------------ margo anderson [17,177]CSuX:mangle question Subject: Re: H-COST: mangle question From: Margo Anderson Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 16:20:04 -0700 - -Poster: Margo Anderson >Believe it or not, you could iron almost anything with it--I can remember >watching a skilled woman iron a man's shirt on it, and the shirt came out >looking perfect (unlike what comes back from the laundry these days.) > My mother remembers that her mother mangled EVERYTHING: sheets, shirts, tablecloths, even towels and socks, all apparently on the theory that she paid good money for the thing and by gosh she was going to get her money's worth. Margo ------------------------------ henk t jong [20,178]CSuX:eh?? Subject: Re: H-COST: EH?? From: "Henk 't Jong" Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 20:54:44 +0200 - -Poster: "Henk 't Jong" Henk & Pauline 't Jong tScapreel Medieval Advisors Dordrecht, Netherlands > For the last two or three days, I've only gotten a couple of list messages a > day...am I being short sheeted?? Or is everybody gone?? > > Bronwen > {hates cobwebs in her mail box} > Me too, 5 or 6 instead of 15 to 30 a day. Henk ------------------------------ bronwens@aol.com[11,179]CSuX:eh?? Subject: Re: H-COST: EH?? From: BronwenS@aol.com Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 09:05:03 -0400 (EDT) - -Poster: BronwenS@aol.com Thanks to all for your reassuring messages. It seems that there HAS been a lull in the list. But oddly enough, the number of messages everyone seemed to be getting the last couple of day still varied, from a couple to a dozen, each day. Bronwen ------------------------------ seamstrix@juno.com[15,180]CSuX:embroidery on tunics Subject: Re: H-COST: Embroidery on Tunics From: seamstrix@juno.com Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 08:25:15 -0700 - -Poster: seamstrix@juno.com I think the first question is what period of history are you asking about? When most people ask about Celtic, they are usually asking about Dark Ages or before, but remember the Celtic people are alive and well to this day, so technically a t-shirt made in a Celtic country(Scotland, Ireland, Isle of Man) could be considered a Celtic tunic. Could you give us some time parameters so we can be more specific in our answers? Celtic fashion evolved too. Karen ------------------------------ jafath@aol.com[18,181]CSuX:mangling Subject: Re: H-COST: mangling From: Jafath@aol.com Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 09:39:07 -0400 (EDT) - -Poster: Jafath@aol.com In a message dated 97-09-08 15:02:10 EDT, scapreel@tip.nl writes: << Right now a large dig takes place which discovered a row of craftsmens houses dating to the 14th c, whinch have been built on or added to time after time until the 19th c. They were torn down in 1960. One of them housed a needle and pins-maker in the late 14th c and a lot of very fine brass needles and pins were found. >> Oooooh, really? (I've been looking for stuff on early pins and needles). Is there anything published I might be able to get hands on? Jo Anne ------------------------------ walter & sheila [71,182]CSuX:pio pico fandango update Subject: H-COST: PIO PICO FANDANGO UPDATE From: Walter & Sheila Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 10:26:33 -0400 - -Poster: Walter & Sheila Things are moving along well for the "Pio Pico Fandango" , the Saturday at the Pio Pico Adobe in Whittier California. As it stands now, it should be very well attended by several groups, including as many as three musical groups and two dance groups, in addition to individual performers, re-enactors and dancers. I am keeping the schedule very flexible to make the best use of the talents and interests of those who show up. Roughly, the schedule is as follows: 10:00 AM Set up (pitch tents etc.) 11:00 AM Program begins 11:30 AM Old West Fashion Show 12:00 PM Lunch 1:00 PM First Dance Set 2:00 PM Second Dance Set 3:00 PM Third Dance Set 4:45 PM Closing remarks 5:00 PM End Also, I understand that the local butcher has donated Thirty Pounds of Meat! That can go a long way. Earlier, I had suggested that you would only be sampling the food. There may, in fact, be enough for everyone to actually eat something resembling a meal. Of course, in this world, there are no guarentees. I would, however, suggest bringing ample fluids to drink, and something period to drink them out of. The dance program will consist of a few demonstrated dances, a few taught dances, and a fair number of Waltzes, Polkas etc. The dance floor will be hard packed earth in the shade of a big ol' tree. It is supposed to be cooler the Saturday than the 100s we have been seeing, but who knows. Dress in your most comfortable costuming. We will be needing people to help out with the kids (we will be having period games like hoops for them--the demand for this depends on how many of the little darlin's actually show up). We will also need folks for the fashion show. If you are interested, seek me out early on and identify yourself and your costume. The official scenario, by the way, is that it is a Fandango, thrown in the year 1855, by Don Pio Pico (the last governor of Mexican California), in honor of Mexican independence day. Everyone, Californio and Yanqui alike, is invited. To reach the adobe, take the 605 to the Whittier/Pioneer Ave offramp. The adobe is one block West of the freeway, and is at the bottom of the Southbound 605 offramp. Hope to see you there. Cheers, Walter Nelson laha@pacbell.net ------------------------------ End of h-costume-digest V1 #65 ****************************** h-costume-digest-approval@world.std.com (h-costume-digest)[44,183]CSuX:h-costume-digest v1 #66 Subject: h-costume-digest V1 #66 From: h-costume-digest-approval@world.std.com (h-costume-digest) Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 20:43:06 -0400 (EDT) h-costume-digest Tuesday, September 16 1997 Volume 01 : Number 066 In this issue: H-COST: Apache RE: H-COST: Apache Re: H-COST: Apache+Lucy, C.Parr catalog cover, Harlem Ren. book Re: H-COST: Help Re: H-COST: Apache Re: H-COST: Apache Re: H-COST: Help Re: H-COST: Apache Re: H-COST: graverobbing/archaeology H-COST: 1550- Elenor of Toledos snood Re: H-COST: Embroidery on Tunics H-COST: CSA web page Re: H-COST: CSA web page Re: H-COST: graverobbing/archaeology Re: H-COST: CSA web page Re: H-COST: graverobbing/archaeology Re: H-COST: graverobbing/archaeology H-COST: last call for Richard III Society Annual General Meeting H-COST: buckram Re: H-COST: buckram Re: H-COST: buckram Re: H-COST: 1550- Elenora of Toledo's snood Re: H-COST: buckram H-COST: kilt attire H-COST: biblical hairdos and don'ts Re: H-COST: biblical hairdos and don'ts Re: H-COST: biblical hairdos and don'ts H-COST: Covering the head Re: H-COST: Covering the head RE: H-COST: Norman/Saxon clothing Re: H-COST: biblical hairdos and don'ts Re: H-COST: biblical hairdos and don'ts H-COST: Eleanor of Toledo H-COST: Victorian circus costumes H-COST: history of rock and roll clothing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- carol kocian [30,184]CSuX:apache Subject: H-COST: Apache From: "Carol Kocian" Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 10:45:50 EST - -Poster: "Carol Kocian" Tony Immarco asked, > I am interested in the general appearance of the costume for Apache > dancers, male and female. I believe this dance originated in Europe about > the 18th or 19th century. If I could be pointed in right direction I would > appreciate it. I need a source which can provide me with an approximate > image of the costumes. Thanks. My knowledge of it is that it's early 20th century. Apache is the basis for the "dances" in the Popeye cartoons when Bluto (or Brutus) throws Olive Oyl around. I don't know if their costumes reflect what Apache dancers wore originally, though. My impression is of the stereotypical Parisian working class costume - the man in black pants and a striped shirt, scarf tied around the neck and a beret. The woman similarly attired, only in a tight black skirt instead of pants. This may be from watching 1950's programs and is not necessarily accurate to the early 20thC, though. There was a tv movie in the past 3 years or so about Margaret Mitchell, and it starred Shannen Dougherty. She did a dance identified as Apache, though I don't recall what she was wearing. Can't trust the movies, though! -Carol Kocian ------------------------------ dunham patricia r [52,185]CSuX:apache Subject: RE: H-COST: Apache From: DUNHAM Patricia R Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 09:12:00 -0700 - -Poster: DUNHAM Patricia R "striped shirt" -- that would be horizontal stripes, black and white, very wide, 2.5-3 inches? I know I've seen this recently... maybe a very early Disney cartoon (not a Popeye)? I mean EARLY, ca. Steamboat Willie vintage, 1920's or 30's... ah, life with a satellite dish and a 5-yr-old! Patricia R. Dunham - Eugene Public - 100 W 13th Ave - 97401 patricia.r.dunham@ci.eugene.or.us - 541-984-8321 http://204.203.17.34/library (EPL) <<<>>> http://members.aol.com/gerekr/medieval.html (home) ---------- | From: Carol Kocian | To: h-costume@world.std.com | Subject: H-COST: Apache | Date: Friday, September 12, 1997 8:45AM | | -Poster: "Carol Kocian" | | Tony Immarco asked, | | > I am interested in the general appearance of the costume for Apache | > dancers, male and female. I believe this dance originated in Europe about | > the 18th or 19th century. If I could be pointed in right direction I would | > appreciate it. I need a source which can provide me with an approximate | > image of the costumes. Thanks. | | My knowledge of it is that it's early 20th century. Apache is the | basis for the "dances" in the Popeye cartoons when Bluto (or Brutus) | throws Olive Oyl around. I don't know if their costumes reflect what | Apache dancers wore originally, though. | | My impression is of the stereotypical Parisian working class | costume - the man in black pants and a striped shirt, scarf tied | around the neck and a beret. The woman similarly attired, only in a | tight black skirt instead of pants. This may be from watching 1950's | programs and is not necessarily accurate to the early 20thC, though. | | There was a tv movie in the past 3 years or so about Margaret | Mitchell, and it starred Shannen Dougherty. She did a dance | identified as Apache, though I don't recall what she was wearing. | Can't trust the movies, though! | | -Carol Kocian | ------------------------------ jweidman@invest.treas.state.mi.us[24,186]CSuX:apache+lucy, c.parr catalog cover, harlem ren. book Subject: Re: H-COST: Apache+Lucy, C.Parr catalog cover, Harlem Ren. book From: jweidman@invest.treas.state.mi.us Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 14:12:49 -0400 - -Poster: jweidman@invest.treas.state.mi.us Picturing Apache dancing can't seem to get out of my mind the "I Love Lucy" where she hires a Frenchman to be her Apache-dancing partner for Ricky's show. Too silly. Autumn issue of Past Times Catalog (1-800-621-6020) has a wonderful full color, whole cover portrait of Catherine Parr. The detail is exquisite, gold work, drawn thread work, looks like gold bullion. This catalog also has wonderful "stuff" in it, especially the Celtic and Bookof Kells-inspired items. I'm sorry I didn't keep the address of the lady doing a Harlem Renaissance costume for private mail.While I was picking up the 1970's teleplay of The Six Wives of Henry VIII, I found a book titled Lost Plays of the Harlem Renaissance 1920-1940. It was softcover, great condition, but plastic-wrapped, so I don't know if it has any pictures at all. It is $10 at Curious Book Shop, East Lansing, MI 517-332-0112. ------------------------------ frances grimble [13,187]CSuX:help Subject: Re: H-COST: Help From: Frances Grimble Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 11:19:02 -0700 - -Poster: Frances Grimble Maurice's _Art of Dancing_ does not have full-length illos of the clothes, and my reproduction of it is not that great. However, you can see the man is wearing a soft flat cloth cap with a bill, or a beret?, an unbuttoned jacket, a shirt (probably white) and a tie. I can't see much of the woman's clothes. I would think further research of Parisian working-class clothes of the 1910s would do the trick. Fran Grimble ------------------------------ kate pinner [18,188]CSuX:apache Subject: Re: H-COST: Apache From: Kate Pinner Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 15:27:16 -0700 - -Poster: Kate Pinner DUNHAM Patricia R wrote: > > -Poster: DUNHAM Patricia R > > "striped shirt" -- that would be horizontal stripes, black and white, > very wide, 2.5-3 inches? I know I've seen this recently.. Why do I think of red and white stripes? - -- Kate Pinner Kelsey Theatre Tech Dir--Design Sets/Costumes ------------------------------ deb [16,189]CSuX:apache Subject: Re: H-COST: Apache From: Deb Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 14:47:20 -0500 - -Poster: Deb > -Poster: DUNHAM Patricia R > > "striped shirt" -- that would be horizontal stripes, black and white, > very wide, 2.5-3 inches? I know I've seen this recently.. Is this what they are wearing in that one scene in "An American In Paris"? Is that a good spot to look for more examples? Deb ------------------------------ frances grimble [16,190]CSuX:help Subject: Re: H-COST: Help From: Frances Grimble Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 14:40:19 -0700 (PDT) - -Poster: Frances Grimble - -Poster: Frances Grimble Maurice's _Art of Dancing_ does not have full-length illos of the clothes, and my reproduction of it is not that great. However, you can see the man is wearing a soft flat cloth cap with a bill, or a beret?, an unbuttoned jacket, a shirt (probably white) and a tie. I can't see much of the woman's clothes. I would think further research of Parisian working-class clothes of the 1910s would do the trick. Fran Grimble ------------------------------ kate pinner [21,191]CSuX:apache Subject: Re: H-COST: Apache From: Kate Pinner Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 15:42:20 -0700 (PDT) - -Poster: Kate Pinner - -Poster: Kate Pinner DUNHAM Patricia R wrote: > > -Poster: DUNHAM Patricia R > > "striped shirt" -- that would be horizontal stripes, black and white, > very wide, 2.5-3 inches? I know I've seen this recently.. Why do I think of red and white stripes? - -- Kate Pinner Kelsey Theatre Tech Dir--Design Sets/Costumes ------------------------------ morganndlf@aol.com[17,192]CSuX:graverobbing/archaeology Subject: Re: H-COST: graverobbing/archaeology From: MORGANNDLF@aol.com Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 21:00:44 -0400 (EDT) - -Poster: MORGANNDLF@aol.com In a message dated 97-09-11 16:03:16 EDT, Deborah writes: << Not all the old clothing has actually been dug up--some comes from family vaults (in particular, I'm thinking of the d'Medici family), so no one has actually dug up a coffin--they're simply removed from a vault, and then replaced. >> I would be extremely interesting in reading the background on this.... can you cite the specific references for posting to this list? Thanks! Morgaine ------------------------------ laurab@dynamite.com.au (laura barwick)[35,193]CSuX:1550- elenor of toledos snood Subject: H-COST: 1550- Elenor of Toledos snood From: laurab@dynamite.com.au (Laura Barwick) Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 15:38:31 +1000 - -Poster: laurab@dynamite.com.au (Laura Barwick) Hi everyone, A friend has just asked me to design a bridal headpiece for her. Possibilities include a beaded head band, a comb or a snood. I'd also like to do a matching necklace. I really like the idea of a netted (using bead weaving) snood done in seed pearls, attached to a beaded clasp or comb. However I think I would need to line it with something to prevent her hair catching in it...ouch! Perhaps an embroidered (fabric) snood would be better. There is a portrait of Eleanor of Toledo* (c1550), wife of Cosimo de'Medici, with her son Garcia that shows one done with ribbon and larger pearls which is gorgeous. The pearls are stitched to joins in the ribbon netting. Does anyone have any experience with making beaded hair accessories, or know of any good resources? In addition does anyone know of any colour reproductions of this portrait? *Fregnac, C. 1965 Jewellery From the Renaissance to Art Nouveau, London Weidenfeld and Nicolson, p13.[B/W photo] Attributed to Agnolo Bronzino. Laura Barwick Canberra, ACT, Australia ------------------------------ maggiros@aol.com[18,194]CSuX:embroidery on tunics Subject: Re: H-COST: Embroidery on Tunics From: MaggiRos@aol.com Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 05:15:05 -0400 (EDT) - -Poster: MaggiRos@aol.com In a message dated 97-09-12 09:33:47 EDT, seamstrix@juno.com writes: > I think the first question is what period of history are you asking > about? Always an important starting point > When most people ask about Celtic, they are usually asking about > Dark Ages or before, On this I must disagree. There's been plenty of discussion (probably most of it has been) of 16th century Ireland and Scottish as "Celtic" on the list. MaggiRos ------------------------------ guinevere white lee [11,195]CSuX:csa web page Subject: H-COST: CSA web page From: Guinevere White Lee Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 05:40:24 -0700 - -Poster: Guinevere White Lee What is the address for the Costume Society of America's web page? Thanks in advance for the help. Guinevere W. Lee Costume Production Supervisor University of New Mexico ------------------------------ saqueen@aol.com[18,196]CSuX:csa web page Subject: Re: H-COST: CSA web page From: SAQUEEN@aol.com Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 09:30:14 -0400 (EDT) - -Poster: SAQUEEN@aol.com Dear Guin and List, Congratulations on your move to New Mexico. The Costume Society of America's web page is: http://www.culturenet.ca/CostumeSocietyAmerica/ Since you are in New Mexico, the Region VII meeting is September 26 - 27 in Santa Fe. Come join the discussion on "How Authentic is Authentic: Dressing Interpreters at Historic Sites" Sally Queen http://www.geocities.com/FashionAvenue/1812 ------------------------------ melanie schuessler [35,197]CSuX:graverobbing/archaeology Subject: Re: H-COST: graverobbing/archaeology From: Melanie Schuessler Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 18:29:01 -0500 - -Poster: Melanie Schuessler ><< Not all the old clothing has actually been dug up--some comes from family > vaults (in particular, I'm thinking of the d'Medici family), so no one has > actually dug up a coffin--they're simply removed from a vault, and then > replaced. > >> > >I would be extremely interesting in reading the background on this.... can >you cite the specific references for posting to this list? Thanks! I'm not the original poster of the mail, but I can point you to one source: Janet Arnold's _Patterns of Fashion_ (1560-1620), in which she describes the vault find of the body of Eleanora of Toledo, wife of Cosimo I de'Medici. (pp. 102-103). Also taken from tombs or crypts were the garments of Grafin Katharina zur Lippe, Pfalzgrafin Dorothea Sabina von Neuberg, and Pfalzgrafin Dorothea Maria von Sulzbach. Arnold is mercifully brief in describing the effects of bodily decomposition on the garments... yech Melanie Melanie Schuessler mail to mjschues@students.wisc.edu or visit the Costume Goddess Home Page http://labweb.soemadison.wisc.edu/users/schuessler ------------------------------ gwnvr@aol.com[8,198]CSuX:csa web page Subject: Re: H-COST: CSA web page From: Gwnvr@aol.com Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 00:24:05 -0400 (EDT) - -Poster: Gwnvr@aol.com I'd love to hear about that discussion! ( How authentic is authentic...) Jennifer ------------------------------ gwnvr@aol.com[6,199]CSuX:graverobbing/archaeology Subject: Re: H-COST: graverobbing/archaeology From: Gwnvr@aol.com Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 00:28:06 -0400 (EDT) - -Poster: Gwnvr@aol.com Talk about your primary sources! ------------------------------ albertcat@aol.com[14,200]CSuX:graverobbing/archaeology Subject: Re: H-COST: graverobbing/archaeology From: AlbertCat@aol.com Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 10:22:07 -0400 (EDT) - -Poster: AlbertCat@aol.com In a message dated 97-09-13 19:30:17 EDT, mjschues@students.wisc.edu writes: << Arnold is mercifully brief in describing the effects of bodily decomposition on the garments... >> And then the photos tell it all! I'm surprised anyone could get a pattern of of some of that rotting stuff. [I'm glad they did tho'] My faves are the plunderhose outfits w/ dagger slashes & blood stains to attest to the murders of the wearers. ------------------------------ tim allison [20,201]CSuX:last call for richard iii society annual general meeting Subject: H-COST: last call for Richard III Society Annual General Meeting From: Tim Allison Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 13:52:38 -0600 - -Poster: Tim Allison Is anyone interested in selling 15th to 16th garb, accessories, patterns, jewelry, etc?. The Richard III Society is having its get together in Chicago the first wsekend in October. There will be a costume-encouraged mystery dinner, and many attendees will be potential customers for such items-if not for this particular occassion, for 12th Night Parties or Renaissance Faires in the future. There is no table rental fee-just a commission on sales, but we need to know as soon as possible so we can ask the hotel for the tables. Non members are welcome to attend the events, as well. Nothing on costume this year, but we'll be discussing medieval cooking, heraldry, historical mysteries, and of course, English history. Thanks for your attention Carol Mitchell ------------------------------ charlene charette [12,202]CSuX:buckram Subject: H-COST: buckram From: Charlene Charette Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 15:22:44 -0500 - -Poster: Charlene Charette What is buckram? I've seen it in the store and I know it's used in millinery, but what fiber is it? What makes it stiff? Is it washable? Etc... - --Charlene ------------------------------ albertcat@aol.com[20,203]CSuX:buckram Subject: Re: H-COST: buckram From: AlbertCat@aol.com Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 08:43:19 -0400 (EDT) - -Poster: AlbertCat@aol.com In a message dated 97-09-15 01:33:00 EDT, charlene@flash.net writes: << What is buckram? I've seen it in the store and I know it's used in millinery, but what fiber is it? What makes it stiff? Is it washable? Etc... >> Buckram is cotton [tho' I don't know if that's what they use every time] or linen [not!] gauze stiffened w/...I don't know...gum? Anyway, it's made so that when it's wet it goes supple so it can be formed into hat shapes. When dry again, it's hard. But if you wash & rinse it [yes, I learned the hard way] you get gauze...limp like cheese cloth. Also, when dry cleaned it stays stiff but turns dirty yellow. I've put it across the front of 18th century gowns & it worked fine for the run of the show but I don't know about the long term. [I also boned the gowns]. I've also seen the lighter grades of it in the hems of 1890's skirts. ------------------------------ seamstrix@juno.com[19,204]CSuX:buckram Subject: Re: H-COST: buckram From: seamstrix@juno.com Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 08:10:10 -0700 - -Poster: seamstrix@juno.com Hello All, Those of us at the RenFaire who have buckram based headgear run screaming for cover at the slightest hint of rain because once the hat gets wet, you can never really put it right again. If you don't need buckram's moldability, and are not adverse to a completely non-period alternative, I recommend plastic canvas for stiffening brims and building crowns. If you run a good piece of wire around the edge of the brim, the brim becomes moldable to personal preference, without it the plastic canvas is pretty much just flat. Karen ------------------------------ sue toorans [30,205]CSuX:1550- elenora of toledo s snood Subject: Re: H-COST: 1550- Elenora of Toledo's snood From: Sue Toorans Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 07:36:54 -0700 (PDT) - -Poster: Sue Toorans On Sat, 13 Sep 1997, Laura Barwick wrote: > -Poster: laurab@dynamite.com.au (Laura Barwick) > > Hi everyone, > > > Perhaps an embroidered (fabric) snood would be better. There is a portrait > of Eleanor of Toledo* (c1550), wife of Cosimo de'Medici, with her son > Garcia that shows one done with ribbon and larger pearls which is gorgeous. > The pearls are stitched to joins in the ribbon netting. > When I did my re-creation of that gown I used the sheerest silk I could find in an off-white. I chose off-white because I though it would be more visually neutral than white. I cut that into a circle large enough to be the snood. Then I sewed the lattce-work gold ribbon to the silk and then sewed the pearls to the intersections. One word of advice - don't use organza. It is too stiff and irritates the back of the neck. > Sue I am *NOT* a rabid feminist! I had my shots last year. ------------------------------ mlaventure@aol.com[27,206]CSuX:buckram Subject: Re: H-COST: buckram From: MLaventure@aol.com Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 11:26:09 -0400 (EDT) - -Poster: MLaventure@aol.com Hi Charlene, Buckram is a woven cotton (I believe) that has a sizing in the fabric to make it stiff. The weave is very open so it has a lot of stretch to it. The sizing is activated by getting it wet or steaming it. It can then be draped or shaped over a hat block. When it dries it retians the shape. It is not washable. Once all the sizing is washed out, it is limp and looks like a lump of cheesecloth. (If you've ever seen a buckram hat that's been pulled from the bottom of a river, you'd know...) There are different weights of buckram, as well as single and double ply. The double ply has a layer of crinoline fused to the buckram to give it more strength. When you are using buckram for millinery work, remember to cut your pieces on the bias. This will give you added "stretch" when you are shaping your brims and crowns. If I can answer any other millinery questions, please let me now. Mary ------------------------------ jean waddie [31,207]CSuX:kilt attire Subject: H-COST: kilt attire From: Jean Waddie Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 17:12:36 +0100 - -Poster: Jean Waddie I'm afraid I deleted the original message by mistake, but I think someone was wanting to know what sort of jacket etc to wear with a kilt for the 19th century. My husband had a good idea, which was "look for pictures of John Brown". He was Prince Albert's ghillie, and became Queen Victoria's devoted companion after Albert's death. Any biography of Victoria is likely to have pictures of him, or indeed of Queen Victoria's sons wearing kilts. Unfortunately, all I have handy in the way of pictures is the publicity photo for the film "Mrs Brown", but I think the jacket Billy Connolly is wearing in that is right. He has a waistcoat with a watchchain underneath (plus basic shirt and rather droopy bow tie). The jacket has an ordinary sort of collar, ie like a modern suit. Three buttons fasten it from chest to waist. It is only slightly curved away from there, but he is wearing it open, which I think was the norm when a waistcoat covered your shirt, so there is no problem getting into the sporran. It looks as if the jacket has pocket flaps with silver buttons on, and turned back cuffs, also with buttons. These trimmings are carried on in modern formal highland dress. I don't have any background in 19th century stuff, so please forgive any obvious mistakes. Please post again if you'd like me to try and find out more - I should be able to dig something up in Edinburgh's libraries. - -- Jean Waddie ------------------------------ gaelscot@aol.com[53,208]CSuX:biblical hairdos and don ts Subject: H-COST: biblical hairdos and don'ts From: Gaelscot@aol.com Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 22:31:46 -0400 (EDT) - -Poster: Gaelscot@aol.com Just a little correction here -- I believe the "biblical injunction" everyone is referring to is St. Paul's instruction on what to wear AT CHURCH, not in everyday life. It's from 1 Corinthians, where you find the famous "love is patient, love is kind" bit (1 Corinthians 13). It's a confusing letter because it answers many questions that Paul, not having a cut and paste function :-), does not repeat. According to my copy (New American Standard translation), it goes like this (1 Corinthians, chapter 11): "Be imitators of me, just as I also am of Christ. Now I praise you because you remember me in everything, and hold firmly to the traditions, just as I delivered them to you. But I want you to understand that Christ is the head of every man, and the man is the head of a woman, and God is the head of Christ. Every man who has something on his head while praying or prophesying, disgraces his head. But every woman who has her head uncovered while praying or prophesying, disgraces her head; for she is one and the same with her whose head is shaved. For if a woman does not cover her head, let her also have her hair cut off, but if it is disgraceful for a woman to have her hair cut off or her head shaved, let her cover her head. For a man ought not to have his head covered, since he is the image and glory of God; but the woman is the glory of man. For man does not originate from woman, but woman from man; for indeed man was not created for the woman's sake, but woman for the man's sake. Therefore the woman ought to have a symbol of authority on her head, because of the angels. However, in the Lord, neither is woman independent of man, nor is man independent of woman. For as the woman originates from the man, so also the man has his birth through the woman; and all things originate from God. Judge for yourselves: is it proper for a woman to pray to God with head uncovered? Does not even nature itself teach you that if a man has long hair, it is a dishonor to him, but if a woman has long hair, it is a glory to her? For her hair is given to her for a covering. But if one is inclined to be contentious, we have no other practice, nor have the churches of God. But in giving this instruction, I do not praise you, because you come together not for the better but for the worse...." Paul goes on to pretty much say that the whole thing isn't worth arguing about, and that the Corinthians are more concerned with rules like this than important things, especially when celebrating "the Lord's supper." "What shall I say to you? Shall I praise you? In this I will not praise you." I'll agree that this may have had something to do with women covering their hair, but not much. After all it just as specifically tells men NOT to cover their hair, and no one seems to have taken that for a biblical injunction on men never wearing hats! Gail Finke ------------------------------ seamstrix@juno.com[13,209]CSuX:biblical hairdos and don ts Subject: Re: H-COST: biblical hairdos and don'ts From: seamstrix@juno.com Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 23:10:45 -0700 - -Poster: seamstrix@juno.com As my lawyer friend said upon reading this....'Obviously written by a lawyer, at an hourly rate...' Wow, that made my brain hurt. Maybe we should worry most about fashion and social mores and leave the theology to another mailing list. As I have been told, one can dig around in the Bible and find justification for almost anything. Karen ------------------------------ dorothy stein [12,210]CSuX:biblical hairdos and don ts Subject: Re: H-COST: biblical hairdos and don'ts From: Dorothy Stein Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 09:43:51 +0100 (BST) - -Poster: Dorothy Stein > I'll agree that this may have had something to do with women covering their > hair, but not much. After all it just as specifically tells men NOT to cover > their hair, and no one seems to have taken that for a biblical injunction on > men never wearing hats! No but the idea that men can do as they please and women must do as men please has been taken very seriously indeed and is still very widespread. ------------------------------ mrs c s yeldham [21,211]CSuX:covering the head Subject: H-COST: Covering the head From: Mrs C S Yeldham Date: 16 Sep 97 09:35:00 GMT - -Poster: Mrs C S Yeldham Surely the point is not what St Paul actually wrote, but what people *believed* him to have written, and what the Church was teaching. After all, from when certain texts were selected and became 'the Bible' until the late 15th century, the Bible was only available in Latin (or Greek, with a bit of Aramaic thrown in), so could only be read by the educated (ie mostly Church people). Even then it takes a while for it to be available in the vernacular. Whether its a church injunction or not, my reading and observation suggests it was a powerful social injunction. BTW doesn't that piece from St Paul suggest very strongly that he thought 'Christians' should be doing precisely the opposite of the people around them, even in 'unimportant' matters? Interesting ... Caroline ------------------------------ mara riley [42,212]CSuX:covering the head Subject: Re: H-COST: Covering the head From: Mara Riley Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 11:04:59 -0400 (EDT) - -Poster: Mara Riley On 16 Sep 1997, Mrs C S Yeldham wrote: > BTW doesn't that piece from St Paul suggest very strongly that he thought > 'Christians' should be doing precisely the opposite of the people around > them, even in 'unimportant' matters? Interesting ... > > Caroline Yes and no. I think that wearing some kind of head covering, at least out in public, was standard practice for women in the Mediterranean, and if they didn't, it was assumed that they were women of loose morals. (No, I can't cite that; I read it years ago, probably in one of my religion classes; and theologians generally aren't experts on ancient clothing... Anybody?) Elsewhere Paul does make it clear that he disapproves of women who wore their hair in the style of the Roman aristocracy -- lots of braiding/jewels/other fancy work -- but that doesn't seem to have stopped women from doing that anyway. The point in the latter injunction was probably not to do the opposite of what was going on around them, but more along the lines of prohibiting conspicuous consumption. The early Christians were regarded somewhat like the back-to-the-land type hippies were in the late '60s and early '70s -- somewhat whacky radicals who threw out the conventions of the times in order to live a simpler, 'purer' lifestyle. How times have changed... :D Anyhoo, I'm wondering to what extent women in Europe wore headcoverings before the introduction of Christianity. My vague recollection of the Roman triumphal arches showing Teutonic and Celtic peoples is that they aren't wearing any head coverings at all. So it would seem to be a change due to religion, not so much due to the climate -- if one can rely on those arches as an accurate source. Thoughts? Just my ramblings... Corbie ------------------------------ dunham patricia r [34,213]CSuX:norman/saxon clothing Subject: RE: H-COST: Norman/Saxon clothing From: DUNHAM Patricia R Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 08:51:00 -0700 - -Poster: DUNHAM Patricia R Apologies, List-- wonderful MS-mail ate her address... To Carol Blanchard: Thanks, I got the list. Didn't see much in the way of "brochures"? Textiles and Shoes are huge volumes, I got more the impression of Shire pamphlets from your post? Oh well, my husband and I decided our interests are probably too specialized for anyone else to be able to evaluate stuff, so she's going to bring back catalogs... thanks, Chimene ---------- | Date: Wednesday, September 03, 1997 8:18AM | | Yes PLEASE!! & thank 'e, 'mum! "brochures from the British | Gov't" -- and I just happen to have someone working here who's | going to Scotland in a week | Patsy | ---------- | | Date: Wednesday, September 03, 1997 12:38AM | | | | Yes, I got one other response just two days ago. She listed many | | books that somewhat touch on the era, and a couple that deal with | | accessories. I guess there's not tons of published research that | | made it to the US on this subject. Most info is in brochures, etc. | | from the British gov't. If you're interested, I'll forward her | | response. Let me know. ------------------------------ shepgibb@mcn.org (robb shep)[19,214]CSuX:biblical hairdos and don ts Subject: Re: H-COST: biblical hairdos and don'ts From: shepgibb@mcn.org (Robb Shep) Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 09:14:17 +0100 - -Poster: shepgibb@mcn.org (Robb Shep) > >I'll agree that this may have had something to do with women covering their >hair, but not much. After all it just as specifically tells men NOT to cover >their hair, and no one seems to have taken that for a biblical injunction on >men never wearing hats! > >Gail Finke There was Biblical life before Paul. Men cover their heads.... so do women. ~!~ R.L. Shep ------------------------------ bronwens@aol.com[29,215]CSuX:biblical hairdos and don ts Subject: Re: H-COST: biblical hairdos and don'ts From: BronwenS@aol.com Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 16:27:16 -0400 (EDT) - -Poster: BronwenS@aol.com In a message dated 97-09-16 11:12:15 EDT, you write: << Judge for yourselves: is it proper for a woman to pray to God with head uncovered? Does not even nature itself teach you that if a man has long hair, it is a dishonor to him, but if a woman has long hair, it is a glory to her? >> The Mennonite women covering their heads was brought up in a previous post. This passage is the reason they do so. I grew up in an area where Mennonites were the majority. The women wear their head coverings, to quote a Mennonite friend of mine "because the bible says a woman should have her head covered when she prays, and you never know when you're going to need to pray"...makes sense to me. The latter part of the passage is why some conservative Christian religions dictate that a woman shouldn't cut her hair. It's possible that some on the list find this religous vien of the topic VERY non-PC...but religion is also a culture, and all cultural effects on fashion should be able to be expressed without censure on this list...especially if it not only helps us understand the fashions and cultures of the past, but aslo helps us understand the various cultures and beliefs around us. Bronwen ------------------------------ laurab@dynamite.com.au (laura barwick)[15,216]CSuX:eleanor of toledo Subject: H-COST: Eleanor of Toledo From: laurab@dynamite.com.au (Laura Barwick) Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 09:37:09 +1000 - -Poster: laurab@dynamite.com.au (Laura Barwick) Hi everyone, Thanks to everyone who expressed interest in the snood I want to make, In addition I have been experimenting with a netted beadwork snood. It is modeled on a late victorian (?) one I saw at an antique show. Please email me at laurab@dynamite.com.au if you would like the pattern. (It might take a few days however.) ------------------------------ melanie schuessler [30,217]CSuX:victorian circus costumes Subject: H-COST: Victorian circus costumes From: Melanie Schuessler Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 19:06:22 -0500 - -Poster: Melanie Schuessler Greetings to the list... Thanks for all the response regarding the Harlem Renaissance--that project is proceeding apace. Now, here's another: I'm working on a paper that explores why it was acceptable for male circus performers to wear tights (and sometimes little sparkly skirts) in public (that is, for performances) during the Victorian era. Does anyone know of a book on the history of circus costume (not just the history of circus), or has anyone ever researched this? I'm near one of two circus archives in the country, but they have nothing of this kind. I'm also looking at primary sources, but there aren't many. So far, it's pictures and posters but no commentary. I've looked at autobiographies of circus performers to no avail. Thanks Melanie Melanie Schuessler mail to mjschues@students.wisc.edu or visit the Costume Goddess Home Page http://labweb.soemadison.wisc.edu/users/schuessler ------------------------------ klines@gbms01.uwgb.edu[16,218]CSuX:history of rock and roll clothing Subject: H-COST: history of rock and roll clothing From: KLINES@gbms01.uwgb.edu Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 19:42:51 -0500 (CDT) - -Poster: KLINES@gbms01.uwgb.edu i have a student doing an independent study in the "history of rock clothing"...we've been looking around at different sources, however we are quickly coming to naught. any sources? tia, sue respond here or suzasuza@aol.com ------------------------------ End of h-costume-digest V1 #66 ****************************** h-costume-digest-approval@world.std.com (h-costume-digest)[41,219]CSuX:h-costume-digest v1 #67 Subject: h-costume-digest V1 #67 From: h-costume-digest-approval@world.std.com (h-costume-digest) Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 09:04:54 -0400 (EDT) h-costume-digest Friday, September 19 1997 Volume 01 : Number 067 In this issue: H-COST: Re: h-costume-digest V1 #66 Re: H-COST: history of rock and roll clothing H-COST: archaelogy refs (c1150-1450) Re: H-COST: Victorian circus costumes Re: H-COST: history of rock and roll clothing H-COST: Re: h-costume-graverobbing/archaeology Re:H-COST: history of rock and roll clothing H-COST: bulletin boards? Re: H-COST: archaelogy refs (c1150-1450) Re: H-COST: history of rock and roll clothing H-COST: MOL archeology books Re: H-COST: biblical hairdos and don'ts Re: H-COST: history of rock and roll clothing Re: H-COST: history of rock and roll clothing RE: H-COST: biblical hairdos and don'ts Re: H-COST: history of rock and roll clothing Re: H-COST: Covering the head H-COST: National Geographics CD Re: H-COST: history of rock and roll clothing H-COST: Rock 'n Roll Re: H-COST: history of rock and roll clothing Re: H-COST: graverobbing/archaeology H-COST: Footwear of the Middle Ages H-COST: "on the rag" H-COST: Roar lack of authenticity H-COST: Eleanor of Toledo Re: H-COST: Roar lack of authenticity H-COST: pipe organ pleating H-COST: Pipe Organ pleating H-COST: Swiss Guard clothing Re: H-COST: Swiss Guard clothing H-COST: Favorite books ---------------------------------------------------------------------- gail decamp [27,220]CSuX:h-costume-digest v1 #66 Subject: H-COST: Re: h-costume-digest V1 #66 From: Gail DeCamp Date: Tue, 16 Sep 97 18:13:22 -0000 - -Poster: Gail DeCamp Well, I've seen "hat fixative" sold at Laci's in Berkeley, California. They're on the web. I bought a can of it, and the label promised that it would keep buckram hats from losing their sizing. However, I haven't tried it since buying it. I would assume that spray-on lacquer or varnish--anything that seals the buckram-- might do the same thing. I've also used plastic needlepoint canvas, and you can steam that. However, it seems to need more steaming than buckram. Gail DeCamp >Those of us at the RenFaire who have buckram based headgear run screaming >for cover at the slightest hint of rain because once the hat gets wet, >you can never really put it right again. If you don't need buckram's >moldability, and are not adverse to a completely non-period alternative, >I recommend plastic canvas for stiffening brims and building crowns. If >you run a good piece of wire around the edge of the brim, the brim >becomes moldable to personal preference, without it the plastic canvas is >pretty much just flat. ------------------------------ rognstad sylvia [23,221]CSuX:history of rock and roll clothing Subject: Re: H-COST: history of rock and roll clothing From: Rognstad Sylvia Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 20:38:23 -0600 (MDT) - -Poster: Rognstad Sylvia I've seen losts of books in bookstores on the history of different rock and roll groups. They usually have lots of pictures. What about videos with rock groups in them? Sylvia On Tue, 16 Sep 1997 KLINES@gbms01.uwgb.edu wrote: > -Poster: KLINES@gbms01.uwgb.edu > > i have a student doing an independent study in the "history of rock > clothing"...we've been looking around at different sources, however we are > quickly coming to naught. any sources? > > tia, > sue > respond here or suzasuza@aol.com > ------------------------------ laurab@dynamite.com.au (laura barwick)[26,222]CSuX:archaelogy refs (c1150-1450) Subject: H-COST: archaelogy refs (c1150-1450) From: laurab@dynamite.com.au (Laura Barwick) Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 14:27:48 +1000 - -Poster: laurab@dynamite.com.au (Laura Barwick) There is a series by the Museaum of London discussing medieval finds from excavations in London: Cowgill,J, de Neergaard, M, & Griffiths, N ? Medieval Finds from Excavations in London 1. London:HMSO Crowfoot, E., Pritchard, F & Staniland,K 1992 Textiles and Clothing c1150-1450, Medieval Finds from Excavations in London 4. London:HMSO Egan, G. & Pritchard, F. 1991 Dress Accessories, c1150-1450. Medieval Finds from Excavations in London 3. London:HMSO Grew, F. & de Neergaard, M 1988 Shoes and Pattens, Medieval Finds from Excavations in London 2. London:HMSO This series is excellent, both for its archaelogy and textile info. Lots of technique info, pictures and drawings mostly B/W. Get them if you can!!! Even better I got them on sale! ------------------------------ ashleyw@erols.com[34,223]CSuX:victorian circus costumes Subject: Re: H-COST: Victorian circus costumes From: ashleyw@erols.com Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 08:49:02 -0400 - -Poster: ashleyw@erols.com Melanie Schuessler wrote: > > I'm working on a paper that > explores why it was acceptable for male circus performers to wear tights > (and sometimes little sparkly skirts) in public (that is, for performances) > during the Victorian era. > > Does anyone know of a book on the history of circus costume (not just the > history of circus), or has anyone ever researched this? I'm near one of > two circus archives in the country, but they have nothing of this kind. > I'm also looking at primary sources, but there aren't many. So far, it's > pictures and posters but no commentary. I've looked at autobiographies of > circus performers to no avail. Melanie, I'm making the assumption (Warning, Will Robinson), based on your email address, that you're in Wisc somewhere, and the museum you've contacted is there. RBB&BC has a great circus museum and archives in Sarasota, FL. Have you contacted them yet? I don't know if they'll have the sort of documentation you're looking for, but last time I was there (way back in my misspent youth), I was impressed with the way they put circus "traditions" into context. RBB&BC also used to have a major office here in Washington, DC, so I'll check here and see if I can find anything for you. Good luck! Ashley Wells ------------------------------ penny e. ladnier [65,224]CSuX:history of rock and roll clothing Subject: Re: H-COST: history of rock and roll clothing From: "Penny E. Ladnier" Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 09:11:38 -0400 - -Poster: "Penny E. Ladnier" At 08:38 PM 9/16/97 -0600, you wrote: I found a wealth of information on Rock & Roll clothing from album jackets. Another get sources is VH-1 and TV Land television stations. VH-1 had a show on last night called Behind the Music (a weekly series). Last night, they featured Culture Club. Boy George claimed that David Bowie influenced him. I was explaining to my teenagers how much that band and many others like them (early 1980's) made such an impact on clothing, hair and makeup of the time. Earlier that night, VH-1 had a documentary on Elton John. It seemed funny that Axl Rose (from Guns & Roses) accredited Elton John for playing such a heavy influence on his life. ***Just a note here...Elton John wore to his 50th birthday party, a Louie the 16th costume that cost $80,000. It was wild!!! The wig must have been 3 ft. high. American Bandstand is also replayed on VH-1. It has a great span on music for three decades! Sonny & Cher (Mackie attack)& the Midnight Special are also on TV Land. Many rock and roll stars have influenced fashion at the time. They are fashion innovators in the U.S. Hair styles especially, are heavily influenced by R&R stars. Look at all those bad black dyes jobs running around, then turn on MTV. Think of what the Beatles did for hair. Elton John in the movie "Tommy" made a big hit with those platform shoes. It's funny, go to any college campus and look the students. If you keep up with music and fashion trends, you can tell what kind of music the students listen to. I used to work at a concert hall that hosted 25-30 shows a year. The shows varied from classical to heavy metal R&R. Every audience was dressed different depending on the type of music being played. It was so much fun to work there, it was a fashion parade every show. It would be a great place for designers to get fresh ideas for creations. My favorite dressers were the country music shows. They are so flashy! My co-worker and I would have contests every show to pick out members in the audience who were best dressed, most flashy, worst dressed... it was a blast! I still have these secret contests when my husband and I go to those boring Christmas office parties. We love circa dating the dresses the women wear to them. Try it, you'll see it is fun. Now, I have you all on your toes when you go to concerts and office parties. There is someone out there watching you... ;) Later...Penny Penny E. Dunlap Ladnier, s0peladn@erols.com Historic Costume Research Web Page http://www.geocities.com/FashionAvenue/1899 member: Costume Society of America American Fashion Council Virginia Commonwealth University Alumni (finally!) ------------------------------ pulliam@acadia.net (deborah pulliam)[15,225]CSuX:h-costume-graverobbing/archaeology Subject: H-COST: Re: h-costume-graverobbing/archaeology From: pulliam@acadia.net (Deborah Pulliam) Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 09:16:44 -0400 - -Poster: pulliam@acadia.net (Deborah Pulliam) <> The deMedici grave clothing is well documented in Janet Arnold's Patterns of Fashion 1560-1620. Janet also collaborated on a booklet, published by the Pitti Palace on the clothing, but it's out of print already. deborah ------------------------------ nick worthington & jamie nikkel [10,226]CSuX:history of rock and roll clothing Subject: Re:H-COST: history of rock and roll clothing From: Nick Worthington & Jamie Nikkel Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 09:39:19 -0400 - -Poster: Nick Worthington & Jamie Nikkel Getting It On: The Clothing of Rock'n'Roll by Mablen Jones Ellen Colon-Lugo, costume consultant 1987, Abbeville Press, NY ISBN 0-89659-686-9 ------------------------------ mills [15,227]CSuX:bulletin boards? Subject: H-COST: bulletin boards? From: mills Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 09:42:04 -0400 - -Poster: mills I know that this is not to be a commercial venue, so I was wondering if anyone on the list knew of a historic costume bulletin board or other location through which I could list some corset making supplies for sale? Please email me, if you would. Much obliged, K.P. Mills ------------------------------ seamstrix@juno.com[11,228]CSuX:archaelogy refs (c1150-1450) Subject: Re: H-COST: archaelogy refs (c1150-1450) From: seamstrix@juno.com Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 08:47:12 -0700 - -Poster: seamstrix@juno.com Totally agree! Those books are worth their weight in gold for the serious costumer. Beginners may want to wait and build up stamina before attempting them as they are very technical and dense. Karen ------------------------------ seamstrix@juno.com[16,229]CSuX:history of rock and roll clothing Subject: Re: H-COST: history of rock and roll clothing From: seamstrix@juno.com Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 08:53:08 -0700 - -Poster: seamstrix@juno.com Hello All, About two years ago the Victoria and Albert in London did a fab exhibit called (I think) Street Fashions which documented the upward movement of fashion trends from the street to the couture houses since WWII. I saw the exhibit and much of the fashion was an expression of musical taste as well. Perhaps they V&A still has literature from the exhibit? Karen ------------------------------ mrs c s yeldham [14,230]CSuX:mol archeology books Subject: H-COST: MOL archeology books From: Mrs C S Yeldham Date: 17 Sep 97 15:40:00 GMT - -Poster: Mrs C S Yeldham Absolute agreement here - the only pity is they stop in 1450. I did ask someone at the MOL (Museum of London) whether there was any plan to publish the later stuff they hold (1450 to 1650 would be perfect) and it came as a novel idea, so I'm not holding my breath. BTW there is also a book on 'Knives and Scabbards' which is currently out of print - I am looking for a copy! Caroline ------------------------------ m311@aol.com[30,231]CSuX:biblical hairdos and don ts Subject: Re: H-COST: biblical hairdos and don'ts From: M311@aol.com Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 12:39:03 -0400 (EDT) - -Poster: M311@aol.com In a message dated 97-09-17 01:49:24 EDT, you write: << The Mennonite women covering their heads was brought up in a previous post. This passage is the reason they do so. I grew up in an area where Mennonites were the majority. >> This would depend on what part of the country you are in. Not all Mennonites cover their heads. In central Illinois they don't. I beleive there is a few families in Morton who still do but in Gridley & Palos Hills they don't and Perrysburg, OH they don't. I know because I grew up here and they still don't cover their heads. My husbands family is Mennonite and they don't cover their heads. They have people in differents states and cities- in Aurthur, Il the family doesn't but some of the Churches there might. The ones in Denver, and Kansas don't either. The ones in Goshen go to a Church were some do and some don't (they don't). The Mennonite Churches that seems to still cover there heads are the ones in the Amish areas. The Amish and the Apostolic Christian Church do cover their heads. I heard from Mennonites who have been to Mennonite Churches overseas, ex Germany, that they cover their head over there more oftern. Whereas I don't cover my head I keep my hair long. I happen to love long hair though and know I don't like short hair because I have tried it short and didn't like it. Kelly Albrecht m311@aol.com ------------------------------ ninni m pettersson [19,232]CSuX:history of rock and roll clothing Subject: Re: H-COST: history of rock and roll clothing From: Ninni M Pettersson Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 19:58:21 +0100 - -Poster: Ninni M Pettersson At 01.42 +0100 97-09-17, KLINES@gbms01.uwgb.edu wrote: >-Poster: KLINES@gbms01.uwgb.edu > >i have a student doing an independent study in the "history of rock >clothing"...we've been looking around at different sources, however we are >quickly coming to naught. any sources? I obviously need to spend more time in the 20th century! When I first read the above I thought "Why do you dress rocks? Or does she mean stone-age clothing?" :-) /Ninni Pettersson ------------------------------ dulcie [32,233]CSuX:history of rock and roll clothing Subject: Re: H-COST: history of rock and roll clothing From: dulcie Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 17:17:58 -0600 (MDT) - -Poster: dulcie On Tue, 16 Sep 1997 KLINES@gbms01.uwgb.edu wrote: - ->-Poster: KLINES@gbms01.uwgb.edu - -> - ->i have a student doing an independent study in the "history of rock - ->clothing"...we've been looking around at different sources, however we are - ->quickly coming to naught. any sources? - -> - ->tia, - ->sue how about trying a history/biography for Vivienne Westwood? She did do some rock n' roll/punk rock clothing for whats-the-name-of-that-band? The Clash? does that sound right? dulcie ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ dulcie meatheringham | the difference dmeather@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca | between us *** *** is nagging everyone. sew 'til you bleed, baby the math is simple, www.martinsexton.com subtract attractive opposites www.ualberta.ca/~dmeather/page.htm -age of electric ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ------------------------------ bronwens@aol.com(smtp:bronwens@aol.com)[38,234]CSuX: biblical hairdos and don ts Subject: Re: H-COST: biblical hairdos and don'ts From: BronwenS@aol.com[SMTP:BronwenS@aol.com] Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 16:47:26 -0700 - -Poster: Broneske Here, here, Bronwen!! I grow rather weary of PC anyway :) Joan B. - ---------- - -Poster: BronwenS@aol.com In a message dated 97-09-16 11:12:15 EDT, you write: << Judge for yourselves: is it proper for a woman to pray to God with head uncovered? Does not even nature itself teach you that if a man has long hair, it is a dishonor to him, but if a woman has long hair, it is a glory to her? >> The Mennonite women covering their heads was brought up in a previous post. This passage is the reason they do so. I grew up in an area where Mennonites were the majority. The women wear their head coverings, to quote a Mennonite friend of mine "because the bible says a woman should have her head covered when she prays, and you never know when you're going to need to pray"...makes sense to me. The latter part of the passage is why some conservative Christian religions dictate that a woman shouldn't cut her hair. It's possible that some on the list find this religous vien of the topic VERY non-PC...but religion is also a culture, and all cultural effects on fashion should be able to be expressed without censure on this list...especially if it not only helps us understand the fashions and cultures of the past, but aslo helps us understand the various cultures and beliefs around us. Bronwen ------------------------------ sue kline [27,235]CSuX:history of rock and roll clothing Subject: Re: H-COST: history of rock and roll clothing From: Sue Kline Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 19:10:15 -0700 (PDT) - -Poster: Sue Kline Tooo fun!! ROTFLMAO!! =) On Wed, 17 Sep 1997, Ninni M Pettersson wrote: > -Poster: Ninni M Pettersson > > At 01.42 +0100 97-09-17, KLINES@gbms01.uwgb.edu wrote: > >-Poster: KLINES@gbms01.uwgb.edu > > > >i have a student doing an independent study in the "history of rock > >clothing"...we've been looking around at different sources, however we are > >quickly coming to naught. any sources? > > I obviously need to spend more time in the 20th century! When I first read > the above I thought "Why do you dress rocks? Or does she mean stone-age > clothing?" :-) > > /Ninni Pettersson > > > ------------------------------ joycelyn falsken [27,236]CSuX:covering the head Subject: Re: H-COST: Covering the head From: Joycelyn Falsken Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 18:10:33 -0700 - -Poster: Joycelyn Falsken > Anyhoo, I'm wondering to what extent women in Europe wore headcoverings > before the introduction of Christianity. My vague recollection of the > Roman triumphal arches showing Teutonic and Celtic peoples is that they > aren't wearing any head coverings at all. So it would seem to be a change > due to religion, not so much due to the climate -- if one can rely on > those arches as an accurate source. Thoughts? The Greeks and Romans (who admired and copied the Greeks) did not commonly cover their heads, but they pulled their mantle or cloak over their heads when they went to worship. This applied equally for men and women. I've not seen reference to this practice in the earlier (western) civilizations in the Mesopotamian area, though there is probably enough information about the First Babylonian Empire (18th c. BC - Hammerabi) and the Assyrian civilizations now that information like this can be dug out. (There's some really neat letters translated which were written by sons to their mothers. One complains that he has no decent clothing to wear and that he is forced to wear clothing which is beneath him! Man doesn't really change so very much thru the centuries...) - -- Joycelyn Falsken ------------------------------ penny e. ladnier [38,237]CSuX:national geographics cd Subject: H-COST: National Geographics CD From: "Penny E. Ladnier" Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 21:15:34 -0400 (EDT) - -Poster: "Penny E. Ladnier" This is not an advertisement, just exciting news for us researchers: I read today in "Family PC" magazine (July/August '97) the follwing article: The Complete National Geographics 108 Years of the National Geographic Magazine on CD_ROM (Title) After 108 years in print, National Geographic is finally available on PC. With this 30-CD collection, you can access every article, map, photograph, and advertisement printed in the magazine since its inception. You can search by date, issue, topic, and title and print pages in color or black and white. Mac & Windows CD. Estimated, $199. The phone numbers given are 1-800-234-3088 or 415-897-9900. YEA!!!!!YEA!!!!!YEA!!!!!YEA!!!!!YEA!!!!!YEA!!!!!YEA!!!!!YEA!!!!! Researchers everywhere are smiling! :) Later...Penny Penny E. Dunlap Ladnier, s0peladn@erols.com Historic Costume Research Web Page http://www.geocities.com/FashionAvenue/1899 member: Costume Society of America American Fashion Council Virginia Commonwealth University Alumni (finally!) ------------------------------ christopher ballis [16,238]CSuX:history of rock and roll clothing Subject: Re: H-COST: history of rock and roll clothing From: "Christopher Ballis" Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 18:15:40 +1000 - -Poster: "Christopher Ballis" Apart from 'the usual' (bios and so forth), you might also look towards Rcihard Tyler whose early work was with rock/pop groups and soloists. Another good source may be a book written about a 1970s Australian band, Skyhooks, who were heavily costumed and made up - it's called Million Dollar Riff by Jenny Browne (an authorised biography so don't believe all you read), published (about) 1976 by Dingo Books in Australia. I've just moved house so if you want the ISBN and other info, lemme know and I'll swan dive into the cartons. - -Christopher Ballis ------------------------------ mrs c s yeldham [21,239]CSuX:rock n roll Subject: H-COST: Rock 'n Roll From: Mrs C S Yeldham Date: 18 Sep 97 09:58:00 GMT - -Poster: Mrs C S Yeldham If she is interested in UK rock music, can the student get hold of videos of 'The Old Grey Whistle Test' or 'Top of the Pops'? For those not based in the UK, these were/are BBC serials on contemporary pop music. TOTPs has been running on BBC1 since ?early 60s and I should think every band that ever had a single in the UK charts appeared on it at some time - which would include quite a lot of US bands as well. At least some of the footage was kept, as they are doing retrospectives based on this footage now. This includes not only the bands but also the audiences for clothes interest. 'The Old Grey Whistle Test' was the more serious end of popular music and ran ?end of 70s/early 80s? on BBC2. Don't think it had an audience tho'. Hope this helps. Caroline ------------------------------ asia reva poppers [21,240]CSuX:history of rock and roll clothing Subject: Re: H-COST: history of rock and roll clothing From: Asia Reva Poppers Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 08:32:16 -0400 - -Poster: Asia Reva Poppers Another source, if you can find a copy, is the video series "The History of Rock and Roll," produced by WGBH Boston. Like many public television programs, it is available for order by libraries and educational institutions, so you might check with your local one of either and see if you can track it down. Its general focus is the music, not the clothes, but fashion is discussed a bit, and the series includes _lots_ of original film and video footage and still photographs of rock performers, as well as present-day interviews with many of the performers pictured in the old footage, which allows a peek at the change in their personal styles of dress then to now. You should see what George Clinton is doing with his hair _these_ days--it's pretty cool. Good luck! Asia ------------------------------ joycelyn falsken [19,241]CSuX:graverobbing/archaeology Subject: Re: H-COST: graverobbing/archaeology From: Joycelyn Falsken Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 08:05:33 -0700 - -Poster: Joycelyn Falsken > Arnold is mercifully brief in describing the effects of bodily > decomposition on the garments... > Then there's the delemma I've heard confronted by some textile conservators who don't know what to do with the body matter after they've removed it from the fabrics.... Do they discard, reinter(sp?), pass on to a lab..? Heard of one man who has jars and jars of the stuff from working with South American arch. digs. Sorry, I don't mean to be gross. Just a thought... - -- Joycelyn ------------------------------ i. marc carlson [26,242]CSuX:footwear of the middle ages Subject: H-COST: Footwear of the Middle Ages From: "I. Marc Carlson" Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 11:26:26 -0500 - -Poster: "I. Marc Carlson" Just as a note to those who keep track of such things, the latest (and hopefully the last) version of "Footwear of the Middle Ages" ("http://www.pbm.com/~lindahl/carlson/SHOEHOME.HTM") is in place and available. I am considering this the final version since I am trying to make arrangements to publish a paper version. Just as an aside, I haven't forgotten my plans to create a similar work on clothing and hats based on archaeological and artifact sources, but since real life considerations have slowed me down considerably, I am looking at other options. I hope to have a "working copy" in place within the month or so that hopefully will be of SOME use to someone. Any questions or comments should be mailed to me directly since I really don't have a lot of time to read large mailing lists right now. Thank you for your time. Marc Carlson (sometimes known as Diarmuit Ui Dhuinn) lib_imc@centum.utulsa.edu http://www.geocities.com/athens/parthenon/5923 ------------------------------ deb [15,243]CSuX:"on the rag" Subject: H-COST: "on the rag" From: Deb Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 11:30:20 -0500 - -Poster: Deb Given a recent conversation, readers might find this interesting, if odd. It doesn't go back further than the 1800's (except for vague references to Egyptians). Museum of Menstruation ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Deb Baddorf baddorf@fnal.gov < ------------------------------ witlady@aol.com[30,244]CSuX:roar lack of authenticity Subject: H-COST: Roar lack of authenticity From: Witlady@aol.com Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 18:21:48 -0400 (EDT) - -Poster: Witlady@aol.com Hi, list - I swear, this is the last time I make an off-hand remark to an editor, but... In my mundane life, I'm a freelance writer covering television for a local paper, and while lurking last August, I was quite amused by all the comments on the lack of authenticity of the Roar costumes, and joked to my editor about it. She thought it would make a great story. I'm doing this for the Pasadena (CA) Star News/San Gabriel Valley Tribune, and what we're looking at is how the costumer screwed up and how this affects the enjoyment of the program. I particularly need comments from the Eastern half of Los Angeles County (the coverage area). Sean Richards(?), I know this is an area particularly close to your heart, so I'd love to hear from you. Please e-mail me privately, as I do not wish to clutter up bandwidth with something we've already gone over. I need a phone number, where you are, and a good time to call you. Also, deadline is next Monday, so the sooner I get responses, the better. Thanks so much for all your help; Anne Louise Bannon ------------------------------ oriana [34,245]CSuX:eleanor of toledo Subject: H-COST: Eleanor of Toledo From: Oriana Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 19:54:13 -0700 - -Poster: Oriana I'm way behind on my reading so please be tolerant if this is old news. > Perhaps an embroidered (fabric) snood would be better. There is a portrait > of Eleanor of Toledo* (c1550), wife of Cosimo de'Medici, with her son > Garcia that shows one done with ribbon and larger pearls which is gorgeous. > The pearls are stitched to joins in the ribbon netting. > > Does anyone have any experience with making beaded hair accessories, or > know of any good resources? In addition does anyone know of any colour > reproductions of this portrait? I have a book called "The Renaissance: European Painting 1400-1600" by Charles McCorquodale. ISBN 1851708928. The copyright page says 'First published in Great Britain in 1994 by Studio Editions Ltd., Princess House, 50 Eastcastle Street, London, W1N 7AP". It is oversized, like a 'coffee-table book.' On page 22 of this book is the portrait you are referring to, in full color. In this edition, the author remarks 'Although not a companion piece to the portrait of her husband, this portrait of Eleonora forms an excellent counterpart. [Agnolo] Bronzino has deliberately rendered Eleonora's lavish costume and pearls as rigidly as her husband's armour.' So while the snood probably is a good representation of what it really looked like, for anyone wanting to copy the dress, be aware that what is shown is, in all probability, not quite what it really looked like. Sharon oriana@pacbell.net ------------------------------ maggiros@aol.com[11,246]CSuX:roar lack of authenticity Subject: Re: H-COST: Roar lack of authenticity From: MaggiRos@aol.com Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 02:43:04 -0400 (EDT) - -Poster: MaggiRos@aol.com I dunno about everyone else, but I managed to stop watching Roar altogether after the second one. My memory of the particular errors is happily fading. Being in the San Fernando Valley, I am probably outside the readership area. :) but I do know a little bit about Irish costume MaggiRos ------------------------------ charlene charette [14,247]CSuX:pipe organ pleating Subject: H-COST: pipe organ pleating From: Charlene Charette Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 00:30:10 -0500 - -Poster: Charlene Charette I have a friend who is looking for information on how to create what she called "pipe organ pleats". I'm not entirely positive what she's trying to do, but she explained it as similar to cartridge pleating and appearing in German (Renaissance ?) costume. Anyone know what she's describing and have a citation? TIA, - --Charlene ------------------------------ mrs c s yeldham [43,248]CSuX:pipe organ pleating Subject: H-COST: Pipe Organ pleating From: Mrs C S Yeldham Date: 19 Sep 97 09:51:00 GMT - -Poster: Mrs C S Yeldham or Organ pipe pleating, which is how I've usually heard it expressed. Turns up a lot at the end of the 15th century in Flanders as well as Germany. Named for the look - the pleats look like the pipes on a church organ ie a series of round tubes running down the body. I'm afraid I'm at work so I don't have any citations but any book on the Northern Renaissance should show it. Some of Rogier van der Weyden's women show what look like organ pipe pleats above the belt. In discussions with Dave Key, he thinks the garments will fall into the folds naturally if cut correctly, and are then arranged under a belt. However some of the garments are obviously sewn into shape, the belt shown won't hold the pleats shown. Most of the modern versions I've seen have pleats which are too flat, they don't have the 'tubular' look. I have had reasonable success with backing the area with fur, with the fur side against the garment, and then sewing the pleats to a 'belt' inside the garment. The fur is compressed against the 'belt' but expands behind the pleat and holds it out. However, this is *very* fiddly, and also assumes all these garments were fur lined - which is not necessarily the case. I didn't worry about mine as its an over-gown which I intend to wear for warmth (and fully line with fur), but it might be a question elsewhere. Hope this helps. On the question of human remains, the two cases I've been involved in/heard of were some Anglo-Saxon monks' remains from a cemetary and the sailors from the Mary Rose. In both of these cases the remains were (or will be) reburied with Christian ceremony after the investigation was/is complete. Actually, the Mary Rose case is quite interesting - apparently the results from the skeletons are ready to publish but they don't want that to be the first publication, so they are waiting for something else to be ready! Things might be more difficult for non-christian remains, or where the relevant religion is no longer practiced! Caroline ------------------------------ britt [28,249]CSuX:swiss guard clothing Subject: H-COST: Swiss Guard clothing From: Britt Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 02:35:55 -0700 (PDT) - -Poster: Britt Greetings! We're in the SCA and my dear, dear husband has allowed me to talk him into having an outfit based on the ones in Raphael's "Mass of Bolsena", the detail of the Swiss Guards so often seen in costume books. I have the picture in colour in three sizes, so seeing things isn't a problem. I can even speculate at the fabrics, and the construction seems to include organ pipe pleating. The skirts, at least on the green and red, seem to be slitted up the back and some sort of underskirts are definitely giving the whole shebang shape. I can even postulate on length. What I'm scared of is trying to reconstruct the pattern. I'm a median-skilled sewer who can follow a pattern rather well, and construct simple early middle ages garments from patterns I make myself, but this thing worries me. I really, *really* want to do it, though (my husband has great legs!). Sugggestions of any and all kinds will be gratefully embraced. Also, does anyone know of a reference that has the entire painting pictured? All the "details" cut off the back of the fellow with the orange-striped black skirt, and I'd like to see him entire including footgear. Thanks! - - Britt (Teceangl in the SCA) ------------------------------ trekona@erols.com[22,250]CSuX:swiss guard clothing Subject: Re: H-COST: Swiss Guard clothing From: trekona@erols.com Date: Fri, 19 Sep 97 12:44:36 GMT - -Poster: trekona@erols.com Hi, > What I'm scared of is trying to reconstruct the pattern. I'm a median-skilled > sewer who can follow a pattern rather well, and construct simple early middle > ages garments from patterns I make myself, but this thing worries me. I > really, *really* want to do it, though (my husband has great legs!). There might be an even better source if you feel like a vacation in Vermont. I was running around the state on a genealogical expedition (trying to find where my ancestors are buried) and we visited a mansion on the west side of VT (can't remember the name off hand, but I can look it up - beside a big granite quarry I think) which happened to hae a Swiss guard uniform hanging in one of the closets. Original. They show it during the tours. There was some story about the owner (who obviously was quite rich) having been in love with them and some museum or king or somebody gave him one, he wanted to have some employees dressed that way! The uniform is all wool. If you want, I can dig up the particulars on the mansion name and the town. -Judy Mitchell ------------------------------ bronwens@aol.com[15,251]CSuX:favorite books Subject: H-COST: Favorite books From: BronwenS@aol.com Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 09:04:44 -0400 (EDT) - -Poster: BronwenS@aol.com I've decided that I'd like to put together a list of costume books to see what is out there that I don't have. So I would like the help of the list by telling what their MOST favorite costume book is, and why. Besides, this might be a fun discussion for the list:) Bronwen ------------------------------ End of h-costume-digest V1 #67 ****************************** h-costume-digest-approval@world.std.com (h-costume-digest)[38,252]CSuX:h-costume-digest v1 #68 Subject: h-costume-digest V1 #68 From: h-costume-digest-approval@world.std.com (h-costume-digest) Date: Sun, 21 Sep 1997 15:37:37 -0400 (EDT) h-costume-digest Sunday, September 21 1997 Volume 01 : Number 068 In this issue: H-COST: Herbert Norris- Tudor Costume reprint Re: H-COST: Swiss Guard clothing H-COST: Organ Pleats Re: H-COST: re-burial H-COST: Re: Mary Rose H-COST: Addresses needed (All read) H-COST: Herbert Norris Tudor costume Re: H-COST: history of rock and roll clothing H-COST: Re: pipe organ pleats Re: H-COST: re-burial Re: H-COST: Favorite books Re: H-COST: Favorite books Re: H-COST: re-burial Re: H-COST: pipe organ pleating Re: H-COST: Swiss Guard clothing Re: H-COST: Re: pipe organ pleats Re: H-COST: Swiss Guard clothing H-COST: Re: Swiss Guard clothing Re: H-COST: Favorite books Re: H-COST: re-burial H-COST: Costume&Textile Fair, UK H-COST: Attn: Penny (address) & favorite book H-COST: Favourite books H-COST: Booklet & New links Re: H-COST: Favourite books Re: H-COST: Favorite books H-COST: Oriental Parasols for 1850-60s H-COST: Re: Questions about booklet H-COST: Favorite Books ---------------------------------------------------------------------- mike newell <72123.411@compuserve.com>[9,253]CSuX:herbert norris- tudor costume reprint Subject: H-COST: Herbert Norris- Tudor Costume reprint From: Mike Newell <72123.411@compuserve.com> Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 09:23:37 -0400 - -Poster: Mike Newell <72123.411@compuserve.com> I just got a message from "eyes" service with Amazon books. Their most recent costume books include a Dover reprint of Herbert Norris's Tudor costume book. Expected publishing date of Oct.1997. - --Kathryn ------------------------------ teddy [67,254]CSuX:swiss guard clothing Subject: Re: H-COST: Swiss Guard clothing From: TEDDY Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 14:51:06 +0000 (GMT) - -Poster: TEDDY > Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 02:35:55 -0700 (PDT) > From: Britt > Subject: H-COST: Swiss Guard clothing > We're in the SCA and my dear, dear husband has allowed me to talk > him into having an outfit based on the ones in Raphael's "Mass of > Bolsena", the detail of the Swiss Guards so often seen in costume > books. Planning one of these myself and have spent ages trying to track down a big, colour reproduction of another painting which shows one open at the front (with clear detailing of the tapes holding the pleats in place). It's by Lorenzo Lotto. Titled St. Dominic Resuscitating Cardinal Fossinova's Nephiew" (I may have spelled the names wrong as I'm doing this from memory). It also gives a good view of the doublet and slashed upper-hose warn beneath those full-skirted garments. >From the look of it, and *some* of the "Mass of Bolsena" figures It doesn't open up the centre front of the bodice (where there is a small, but obvious "v" shaped dip in the neckline), but off to one side. The reason I want a large, clear colour reproduction is that it isn't clear *how* or exactly where it fastens. The front panel is flapped open, and is clearly too wide to be one half of a centre front opening bodice, but the part it attaches too and the method of attachment is not visible although the shoulder "strap" is in place (the figure is the unconscious nephiew and is positioned with head towards the viewer and feet pointing away). There are several books on Renaissance Art (I work in a University Library so can get them fairly easily) which show the full "Mass of Bolsena" and another painting in the same room of the Vatican which shows more of the Swiss Guards carrying a chair-litter (similar to the one they are kneeling around in "Bolsena"). They are reproduced quite small however as the paintings themselves are *huge* and painted on the walls of arches around large doors. > What I'm scared of is trying to reconstruct the pattern. I'm a > median-skilled sewer who can follow a pattern rather well, and > construct simple early middle ages garments from patterns I make > myself, but this thing worries me. I really, *really* want to do > it, though (my husband has great legs!). The pattern shapes themselves should be very simple (possibly adapted from existing patterns, one of my personal favourite methods) but I want to be more sure of how/where the non-centre-front fastening ones *do* fasten before I start. It could be that they fasten up one side seam (creating an unusual shape/join with the intact shoulder- strap/armhole shown in the Lotto painting, or there could be aside- front piece continuing down from the shoulder-strap, which the front- flap then overlaps or fastens to.... Oh, to be able to visit the Vatican and inspect them first-hand! Teddy teddy1@mdx.ac.uk ====================== Bibliographical Services Dept. * If a costume's worth * Middlesex University * making, it's worth * Bounds Green Road * making well enough * London, N11 2NQ * for every-day wear. * England ====================== Tel No.(0181) 362 6405 ------------------------------ mike newell <72123.411@compuserve.com>[21,255]CSuX:organ pleats Subject: H-COST: Organ Pleats From: Mike Newell <72123.411@compuserve.com> Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 10:38:06 -0400 - -Poster: Mike Newell <72123.411@compuserve.com> Dear Caroline- Organ pleats can, indeed, be achieved through using, as I think you did, an inner stay. The garment does not need to be fur-lined, but it does need some some of interlining. I knew two gentlemen in the Barony of Carolingia who did this many years ago. Both used inner stay tapes, sewing the pleats down to them at intervals on the inside of the garment. Sir Patri was inspired by a photo of a pair of military bases (owned by the Metropolitan Museum of Art). The Blanche Payne costume book shows a photo of them, front and back, and a stay is used to keep the circular pleats in place. Another gentleman, Christopher of the Fields, made a c.1450 style Florentine outfit and achieved lovely organ pleats but I think, like you, it was fur lined. - --Kathryn ------------------------------ susan fatemi [20,256]CSuX:re-burial Subject: Re: H-COST: re-burial From: Susan Fatemi Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 08:35:59 -0700 - -Poster: Susan Fatemi Caroline wrote: .... > Things might be more difficult for non-christian remains, or where the > relevant religion is no longer practiced! When a certain anthro. museum was moving their considerable collection of skeletal remains, it was noticed that there was quite a bit of bone dust left in the trays. This was reburied, with all due respect in a corner of their patio garden, with a de-frocked shaman (American Indian) presiding. No costumes involved tho'. Susan Fatemi susanf@eerc.berkeley.edu ------------------------------ gina balestracci [25,257]CSuX:mary rose Subject: H-COST: Re: Mary Rose From: "Gina Balestracci" Date: 19 Sep 97 08:54:46 - -Poster: "Gina Balestracci" Caroline wrote: >On the question of human remains, the two cases I've been involved in/heard >of were some Anglo-Saxon monks' remains from a cemetary and the sailors >from the Mary Rose. In both of these cases the remains were (or will be) >reburied with Christian ceremony after the investigation was/is complete. >Actually, the Mary Rose case is quite interesting - apparently the results >from the skeletons are ready to publish but they don't want that to be the >first publication, so they are waiting for something else to be ready! Actually, there was an article on some of the musical instruments found in the Mary Rose shortly after they were made available to researchers. It was written by Herb Myers of Stanford University (California) whose field is renaissance organology. The article was in the journal Early Music (Oxford Univ. Pr.), but I don't remember the year (mid-80s?). I think it compared the dulcians (early bassoons) that were on the ship to either othr English or Continental instruments. Gina balestracci@saturn.montclair.edu ------------------------------ penny e. ladnier [106,258]CSuX:addresses needed (all read) Subject: H-COST: Addresses needed (All read) From: "Penny E. Ladnier" Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 14:19:11 -0400 (EDT) - -Poster: "Penny E. Ladnier" First things...I am not excepting any more members into the booklet that I have not previously heard from...sorry.... The h-costume booklet is going to the printer next week. I am going to start asking for snail mail addresses for only the people who sent me information previously. PLEASE do not send me your address until I list your name on the h-costume list. There are 200 of you in my database and I am trying to keep this as organized as possible. This is the first part of the list I am list I am asking for only. I will catch the rest of you in my next postings. When you respond to me, PLEASE follow the directions: 1. In the subject header, place the words, ADDRESS # and put in the number by your name on the following list. I am ADDRESS #1, so if I was emailing this I would put in the subject header ...ADDRESS#1. This is your database locating number and it makes life easier for me to locate you in the database. 2. In the body of the email, send me only, the following information: Your Name Street or P.O. Box City State Zip Country (if not the US) Please stack the above information as I just did. It is easier for me to enter the information into the database. Do not send me your phone numbers and do not send this entire message back to me as a reply. I, too, have to save memory on my computer. If your name is on the following list and I do not hear back from you, I will assume you are no longer on the h-costume list. ******************I NEED ADDRESSES FROM:************************** ID-Name 2-Pye-MacSwain, Joy 3-Weston, Annikki 4-Graves, B. Jolene 5-Watson, Eileen 6-Greenwood, Kij 7-Neal, Mazelle 8-Williams, Merry 9-Jurancich, Joan M. 10-Rajamaki, Ella Lynoure 11-Davis, Sandra L. 12-Saputo, Nancy 13-Dolezal, Katrina 14-Clark, Jessica 15-Dockery, Jan 16-Davitt-Style, Sarahj 17-Nowrick, Gwen 18-Hedgecock, Jeffrey 19-Songal, Kathy 20-Louis-Grieb, Shanda 21-Smith, Mary Denise 22-Glickman, Bonnie 23-Struthers, Fred 24-Thomas, S. 25-Parkinson, Lyn M. 26-Jong, Henk and Pauline 't 27-Grimble, Frances 28-Falsken, Joycelyn 29-Drain, Sue 30-Fatherly, Jo Anne 31-Albrecht, Kelly 32-Hicks, Melissa 33-Gambill, Jeannie 34-Teddy 35-Mitchell, Carol 36-Middleton, James 37-Baker, Lezlie 38-Lichtenstein, Joe 39-Schaeffer, Karren 40-Hargus, Kat 41-Berry, Robin L. 42-Nash, Doris 43-Bolton, Connie 44-Lazear, Angela F. 45-Norton, Sally 46-Hoffman, Hollie 47-Goldsby, Thea 48-Schaeffer, Astrida 49-Spies, Jane Spies 50-White, Laura Later...Penny Penny E. Dunlap Ladnier, s0peladn@erols.com Historic Costume Research Web Page http://www.geocities.com/FashionAvenue/1899 member: Costume Society of America American Fashion Council Virginia Commonwealth University Alumni (finally!) ------------------------------ mike newell <72123.411@compuserve.com>[24,259]CSuX:herbert norris tudor costume Subject: H-COST: Herbert Norris Tudor costume From: Mike Newell <72123.411@compuserve.com> Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 14:46:02 -0400 - -Poster: Mike Newell <72123.411@compuserve.com> Dear Stacey- I'm sorry-- I made the assumption many people here are SCA. Many Old Time SCA Folk (like me!) loved the Norris series. They were published in the 1920's and early 30's, and of course have been out of print forever. I was lucky enough to have Harvard library privileges for a while, and I xeroxed myself the entire series, even color xeroxs of the color plates. I am sure there are many clothiers who look down on Norris. Back when we were using his books a lot (the 1970's) we were re-inventing the wheel of costume research for our SCA. I would not recommend his books for rank beginners, or as serious documentation for all research. I have heard his work referred to as "The Good, The Bad, and the Ugly" -- but many of us found his illustrations inspiring. Sometimes his renditions of clothing take some artistic license. Norris always has to have his sources checked, but I have found some of his work very good. If a source inspires, then that's a Good Thing! - --Kathryn ------------------------------ sue kline [41,260]CSuX:history of rock and roll clothing Subject: Re: H-COST: history of rock and roll clothing From: Sue Kline Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 15:41:46 -0700 (PDT) - -Poster: Sue Kline thank you to all who posted. your information will help teri a great deal. sue kline-heim On Wed, 17 Sep 1997, dulcie wrote: > -Poster: dulcie > > On Tue, 16 Sep 1997 KLINES@gbms01.uwgb.edu wrote: > > ->-Poster: KLINES@gbms01.uwgb.edu > -> > ->i have a student doing an independent study in the "history of rock > ->clothing"...we've been looking around at different sources, however we are > ->quickly coming to naught. any sources? > -> > ->tia, > ->sue > > how about trying a history/biography for Vivienne Westwood? She did do > some rock n' roll/punk rock clothing for whats-the-name-of-that-band? The > Clash? does that sound right? > > dulcie > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > dulcie meatheringham | the difference > dmeather@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca | between us > *** *** is nagging everyone. > sew 'til you bleed, baby the math is simple, > www.martinsexton.com subtract attractive opposites > www.ualberta.ca/~dmeather/page.htm -age of electric > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > > ------------------------------ lee & bill [11,261]CSuX:pipe organ pleats Subject: H-COST: Re: pipe organ pleats From: Lee & Bill Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 11:28:40 -0700 - -Poster: Lee & Bill My needlework book from the 1940s describes pipe organ pleats as stuffed cartridge pleats. They suggest batting, scrap fabric, or upholstery cording. Lee ------------------------------ seamstrix@juno.com[33,262]CSuX:re-burial Subject: Re: H-COST: re-burial From: seamstrix@juno.com Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 16:53:40 -0700 - -Poster: seamstrix@juno.com This was reburied, >with all due respect in a corner of their patio garden, with >a de-frocked shaman (American Indian) presiding. > >No costumes involved tho'. > >Susan Fatemi >susanf@eerc.berkeley.edu Hello All, Just a little personal question.....How do you de-frock a shaman? Karen ------------------------------ seamstrix@juno.com[20,263]CSuX:favorite books Subject: Re: H-COST: Favorite books From: seamstrix@juno.com Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 16:59:41 -0700 - -Poster: seamstrix@juno.com Hello All, One of my favorites is of course 'Queen Elizabeth's Wardrobe Unlock'd' by Janet Arnold. Her 'Patterns of Fashion' are all excellent as well. The recently mentioned Museum of London books on 'Medieval Excavations in London' are wonderful but very technical. A non-costume oriented book which is none the less an excellent source for Tudor and Elizabethan clothing is 'Dynasties' edited by Karen Hearn. 'Dress in Ireland' by Mairead Dunlevy is an excellent specific source for an area which doesn't usually get good documentation. Stop me before I inventory my entire costume book collection! Karen ------------------------------ bronwens@aol.com[14,264]CSuX:favorite books Subject: Re: H-COST: Favorite books From: BronwenS@aol.com Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 18:16:50 -0400 (EDT) - -Poster: BronwenS@aol.com In a message dated 97-09-19 11:37:02 EDT, you write: << Is this limited to western european?? >> No, by all means list any favorite book you have. I'm trying to build a resource library that almost any historical costumer might find something in. So sound off on what ever time/region you favor. Bronwen ------------------------------ frances grimble [14,265]CSuX:re-burial Subject: Re: H-COST: re-burial From: Frances Grimble Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 15:26:36 -0700 - -Poster: Frances Grimble > > Just a little personal question.....How do you de-frock a shaman? > > Karen This does indeed sound like a personal question--but I assume you remove a shaman's clothing by the same method as anyone else's. Fran ------------------------------ julie adams [70,266]CSuX:pipe organ pleating Subject: Re: H-COST: pipe organ pleating From: Julie Adams Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 22:07:04 -0700 - -Poster: Julie Adams >I have a friend who is looking for information on how to create what she >called "pipe organ pleats". I'm not entirely positive what she's trying >to do, but she explained it as similar to cartridge pleating and >appearing in German (Renaissance ?) costume. Anyone know what she's >describing and have a citation? Charlene, We have several pictures of men wearing organ pipe pleated Rocks at: http://www.st-mike.org/groups/german/homepage.html Look under Pictures for to see my hubby "Herr Hirsch" in a red organ pipe pleated Rock (which needs steaming in that picture), and later on a picture of my husband in a cream organ pipe pleated rock with my son as a baby in a red organ pipe pleated Rock. There is an original garment that is shown in both Kohler's History of Costume and Blanche Payne's A History of Costume, but Payne's diagram and vague instructions were only published in the first edition. I am currently working on a pamphlet on how to create organ pipe pleats with diagrams and detailed instructions, but its not quite ready yet. I'll announce it here when its done. The basic pattern cut is that of a circle. The garment must be made from a fabric that has a lot of body or is backed with something to stiffen it. Vertical seams usually run along the inside of each pleat, pinching the back, so that the front of the pleat is rounded into the pipe shape. The seam may be only a few inches at the top of a skirt, the breast of a houpeland, or it may run all the way down the skirt (in German Renn). Each pleat is held in place by a stay tape. Its nearly impossible to explain in text alone. My pamphlet will have graphics that make it fairly clear. Awhile ago I taught some classes on organ-pipe pleating, but haven't done so in awhile. If you are anywhere near So. CA, I don't mind people coming to visit and giving an explanation. Its so much easier to explain when you can make a small model. I usually have people make a baby sized 1/4 skirt in class, so the transition between the 2-D fabric, and 3-D finished pleat becomes more apparent. Organ pipe pleating is time-consuming, but not that difficult per se. I almost think of it as one of those techniques that most often get messed up when people have pre-conceived notions on how it should work. In my mind it is similar to doing some of the pluderhosen from Janet Arnold. I've seen some men who have never sewn before make wonderful replicas, while many experienced costumers flounder because the pattern is so different from modern cut breeches. Most people are used to cutting Renn. skirts as rectangles pleated into a band, but organ pipe pleats actually can use much less fabric because cutting it on the circle doesn't leave all that excess at the waist. If you cartridge pleat a skirt in that is cut as a rectangle, you will find you have a shelf at the waist which looks funny. One of the main errors people make in this garment is cutting the waist too long. The skirt of the Rock should fit at the natural waist, not the hip, and because they are heavy, I recommend pinning the skirt on the bodice/doublet and steaming it every so often while hanging it for 3 weeks at least because even canvas lined coat wool can stretch with the weight of the skirts. - -Julie Adams ------------------------------ julie adams [31,267]CSuX:swiss guard clothing Subject: Re: H-COST: Swiss Guard clothing From: Julie Adams Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 22:15:30 -0700 - -Poster: Julie Adams >From the look of it, and *some* of the "Mass of Bolsena" figures It >doesn't open up the centre front of the bodice (where there is a >small, but obvious "v" shaped dip in the neckline), but off to one >side. The reason I want a large, clear colour reproduction is that >it isn't clear *how* or exactly where it fastens. The front panel is >flapped open, and is clearly too wide to be one half of a centre >front opening bodice, but the part it attaches too and the method of >attachment is not visible although the shoulder "strap" is in >place (the figure is the unconscious nephiew and is positioned with >head towards the viewer and feet pointing away). Both side front and front openings can be seen in German examples from this period. The side front opening usually runs along or just to the outside of the center of the left breast. But there are also some which look like they wrap completely around to fasten on the side along a seam under the arm. Some were probably double-breasted. There are other doublets from this period that have a double overlap. If you view it as a military garment, it makes sense to add extra protection to the front torso. But here in So. California, most don't add the extra layer. - -Julie Adams ------------------------------ julie adams [19,268]CSuX:pipe organ pleats Subject: Re: H-COST: Re: pipe organ pleats From: Julie Adams Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 22:34:26 -0700 - -Poster: Julie Adams >My needlework book from the 1940s describes pipe organ pleats as stuffed >cartridge pleats. They suggest batting, scrap fabric, or upholstery >cording. >Lee I've seen people try this, but it doesn't come out looking correct. - -Julie Adams ------------------------------ britt [24,269]CSuX:swiss guard clothing Subject: Re: H-COST: Swiss Guard clothing From: Britt Date: Sat, 20 Sep 1997 01:13:00 -0700 (PDT) - -Poster: Britt > There might be an even better source if you feel like a vacation in > Vermont. I was running around the state on a genealogical expedition (trying to > find where my ancestors are buried) and we visited a mansion on the west side > of VT (can't remember the name off hand, but I can look it up - beside a big > granite quarry I think) which happened to hae a Swiss guard uniform hanging in > one of the closets. Original. They show it during the tours. There was some > story about the owner (who obviously was quite rich) having been in love with > them and some museum or king or somebody gave him one, he wanted to have some > employees dressed that way! The uniform is all wool. > If you want, I can dig up the particulars on the mansion name and the town. > -Judy Mitchell Golly. What was the date of the uniform, do you know? I would very much like the information. I'm in Oregon, so a trip over for a look is kind of out of the question, but they might be amenable to sending information if I ask nicely. Thanks! - - Britt ------------------------------ britt [23,270]CSuX:swiss guard clothing Subject: H-COST: Re: Swiss Guard clothing From: Britt Date: Sat, 20 Sep 1997 01:41:23 -0700 (PDT) - -Poster: Britt > The pattern shapes themselves should be very simple (possibly adapted > from existing patterns, one of my personal favourite methods) but I > want to be more sure of how/where the non-centre-front fastening ones > *do* fasten before I start. It could be that they fasten up one side > seam (creating an unusual shape/join with the intact shoulder- > strap/armhole shown in the Lotto painting, or there could be aside- > front piece continuing down from the shoulder-strap, which the front- > flap then overlaps or fastens to.... > > Oh, to be able to visit the Vatican and inspect them first-hand! > Teddy Oh, Teddy, PLEASE keep me posted on your progress! You've obviously got much better resources than I do, and probably better costuming skills. I'm going to keep looking for better study materials on the garment style, and need all the input I can get. - - Britt ------------------------------ britt [33,271]CSuX:favorite books Subject: Re: H-COST: Favorite books From: Britt Date: Sat, 20 Sep 1997 02:15:38 -0700 (PDT) - -Poster: Britt > << Is this limited to western european?? >> > No, by all means list any favorite book you have. I'm trying to build a > resource library that almost any historical costumer might find something in. > So sound off on what ever time/region you favor. Then my two favourite Chinese costume books should be mentioned: _Chinese Textiles_ an introduction to the study of their history, sources, technique, symbolism, and use, by Alan Priest and Pauline Simmons. This one can also be found under the authorship of Metropolitan Museum of Art Very nice book, especially if you're interested in silk weaves and Chinese embroidery. This one, however, is the one I'll own as soon as I can find a copy (the information I'm presenting is from my local library's online catalog): AUTHOR Chung-kuo fu shih wu ch`ien nien. English. TITLE 5000 years of Chinese costumes / text, Zhou Xun, Gao Chunming ; editing, The Chinese Costumes Research Group of the Shanghai School of Traditional Operas ; [photographs by Zhou Zuyi, Jin Baoyuan]. PUBLISHER San Francisco, CA : China Books & Periodicals, c1987. NOTES 1) Translation of: Chung-kuo fu shih wu ch`ien nien. *Excellent* book. - - Britt ------------------------------ dorothy stein [13,272]CSuX:re-burial Subject: Re: H-COST: re-burial From: Dorothy Stein Date: Sat, 20 Sep 1997 11:41:45 +0100 (BST) - -Poster: Dorothy Stein On Fri, 19 Sep 1997, Susan Fatemi wrote: > a de-frocked shaman (American Indian) presiding. > > No costumes involved tho'. Being naked is a costume of sorts. ------------------------------ margaret bolger [17,273]CSuX:costume&textile fair, uk Subject: H-COST: Costume&Textile Fair, UK From: Margaret Bolger Date: Sat, 20 Sep 1997 12:18:19 -0400 - -Poster: Margaret Bolger Hello All As you know, my next Antique Costume & Textile Fair is on Sunday 28th September, 1997 in Manchester UK. I hope to meet some of you there. For those who are unable to attend, I would be happy to look out items fo= r you. Please e.mail me before Thursday 25th September. Margaret ------------------------------ lark5000@aol.com[18,274]CSuX:attn: penny (address) & favorite book Subject: H-COST: Attn: Penny (address) & favorite book From: Lark5000@aol.com Date: Sat, 20 Sep 1997 15:04:53 -0400 (EDT) - -Poster: Lark5000@aol.com Hello, (Sorry to post this to the list but I can't reach Penny to give her my address for the booklet. Penny, please e-mail me...Thanks).... Regarding my favorite book: Please note that I am not a costume designer, but I love the following book. It's great! Has anyone else seen it? American Victorian Costume in Early Photographs by Priscilla Harris Dalrymple. (Dover Publications, Inc.) Jane Spies Lark5000@aol.com ------------------------------ christopher ballis [43,275]CSuX:favourite books Subject: H-COST: Favourite books From: "Christopher Ballis" Date: Sun, 21 Sep 1997 12:09:53 +1000 - -Poster: "Christopher Ballis" Three of note (well, two and a half): D-Day, from the Normandy beaches to the Liberation of France by Stephen Badsey Tiger books, London Although a dumbed-down version of the history and strictly speaking not a costume book, it has hundreds of large photographs of uniforms, accessories, patches and medals, most in colour, and many photographs taken at the time. National Portrait Gallery Collection National Portrait Gallery Big, colour book of paintings and photographs from the British institution The Story of Fashion RM Associates (production house) Three part TV series on 20th century fashion, made in the 1980s so beware the bias, uses a lot of old footage and visits with several up-and-coming and established designers. If for nothing else, valuable for the sequences with Karl Largerfeld (sp?) sitting with a sketch book to define silhouettes of the various periods. - -Christopher Ballis Breeches & Bustles, an illustrated history of clothes worn in Australia, 1788-1914 Elizabeth Scandrett Pioneer Design Studio, Lilydale Duck & Cabbage Tree Cedric Flower Angus & Robertson, Melbourne - -C. ------------------------------ penny e. ladnier [32,276]CSuX:booklet & new links Subject: H-COST: Booklet & New links From: "Penny E. Ladnier" Date: Sat, 20 Sep 1997 23:36:02 -0400 (EDT) - -Poster: "Penny E. Ladnier" To all those who are trying to email me and having trouble... The 2nd character in my email address is a zero (0). I just updated the links on my web page... many more links to costume images... for fun try out, the KNOT link in the 1900's section. Historic Costume Research http://www.geocities.com/FashionAvenue/1899 Later...Penny Penny E. Dunlap Ladnier, s0peladn@erols.com Historic Costume Research Web Page http://www.geocities.com/FashionAvenue/1899 member: Costume Society of America American Fashion Council Virginia Commonwealth University Alumni (finally!) ------------------------------ mzscahlett@aol.com[15,277]CSuX:favourite books Subject: Re: H-COST: Favourite books From: MzScahlett@aol.com Date: Sun, 21 Sep 1997 01:36:22 -0400 (EDT) - -Poster: MzScahlett@aol.com In a message dated 97-09-20 22:36:42 EDT, you write: << D-Day, from the Normandy beaches to the Liberation of France by Stephen Badsey >> Do you know where I could find a similar tome (actually just a photo would do) of the Uniform worn by a Canadian sailor during WWI?? This would be an American who signed up to fight in WWI through the Canadian army. Thanks for anything you can tell me ------------------------------ kelvin.wilson@tip.nl (kelvin wilson)[36,278]CSuX:favorite books Subject: Re: H-COST: Favorite books From: kelvin.wilson@tip.nl (Kelvin Wilson) Date: Sun, 21 Sep 1997 09:55:53 -0400 - -Poster: kelvin.wilson@tip.nl (Kelvin Wilson) I'd certainly like to mention a few books that might have little academic weight, but which each offer a beautiful overall view of the world's costume types: Albert Racinet's "Historical Encyclopedia of Costume", the two books by Max Tilke, "Costume Patterns and Design" and "A Pictorial History of Costume" (all in reprint), a small Danish book called " Alverdens Klaededragter i Farver" ('translates as "Foreign Costume in Colour"-- a gallery of worldwide folkdress, from Micronesian coconut harness to the Siberian shaman's kaftan) and my personal favourite, "Costume and it's A-to-B". Alas, this last one is very difficult (or expensive) to come by and, oh, did I forget to mention?, is written in Dutch... It's an absolute gem, though. All hail to Britt's suggestion: "5000 years of Chinese costumes". I too have only seen it in my local library but, wow!, what a gorgeous thing she is. Kelvin - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Kelvin Wilson archaeological illustrator Bijlwerffstraat 13-A 3039 VD Rotterdam The Netherlands e-mail kelvin.wilson@tip.nl - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - ------------------------------ terry & marlene wass [24,279]CSuX:oriental parasols for 1850-60s Subject: H-COST: Oriental Parasols for 1850-60s From: "Terry & Marlene Wass" Date: Sun, 21 Sep 1997 13:28:42 -0400 - -Poster: "Terry & Marlene Wass" All: I have a question concerning the use of an oriental parasol for 1860's reenacting. While I was in China I bought two oriental parasols. They are completely made of wood and shellaced paper, 18 inches in length and the top is 24 inches in diameter. The top has hand painted flowers, birds and leaves. My wife and I have read references to "oriental style" parasols, are the ones that I purchased acceptable for 1850-60s US? Terry W Terry & Marlene Wass tmwass@main.citynet.net ------------------------------ penny e. ladnier [60,280]CSuX:questions about booklet Subject: H-COST: Re: Questions about booklet From: "Penny E. Ladnier" Date: Sun, 21 Sep 1997 14:42:37 -0400 - -Poster: "Penny E. Ladnier" At 01:47 PM 9/21/97 -0500, you wrote: Jessica & list, Jessica ask the following questions, and since it has been a few months ago when your information was sent to me, I thought I refresh your memory... >What information exactly is going to be included in the booklet? The information included in the booklet is your name, location of state or country (no cities included, for your protection), what time periods and areas you are interested in costuming, wheither you have a costume business or is this a hobby, if you maintain a costume related web page, organizations you are affilications with and your email address. No snail mail address will be published. I need your snail mail addresses to send the booklet to you. The snail mail addresses will not be used for any other purposes than that. >What purpose is this for? If you remember in May/June a lot of discussion went on the list about they wished they had a way to locate one another when we lose email addresses, what kind of interests do the people of the list have.... I volunteered organize this information and publish it. >How will the booklet be distributed? Look above. The booklet is being published and mailed free to you due to the fact that advertisers (certain businesses on the list) paid for ads in the booklets. The ads paid for all the expenses. The biggest expenses of this adventure is the postage. The booklet is going out to nine countries. Personally, I think it is wonderful that nine countries are represented on the list. You won't believe all the different areas of costumes that are represented. I think this is what makes learning from this list is so great. I am sorry that it has taken me a while to get this publication out. I went through the process of buying a house and moving (with 5 kids). All this and finishing my last two classes in college. That's how publishing goes...anything can happen. Thanks for your patience! Later...Penny Penny E. Dunlap Ladnier, s0peladn@erols.com Historic Costume Research Web Page http://www.geocities.com/FashionAvenue/1899 member: Costume Society of America American Fashion Council Virginia Commonwealth University Alumni (finally!) ------------------------------ frances grimble [87,281]CSuX:favorite books Subject: H-COST: Favorite Books From: Frances Grimble Date: Sun, 21 Sep 1997 12:27:14 -0700 - -Poster: Frances Grimble I've been following the discussion on the best books for a costumer's library with interest. I've been thinking of books to recommend, but it's hard because there are so many good ones. Personally I think the technical books with patterns and sewing instructions are most essential. =20 I think someone already recommended Janet Arnold's _Patterns of Fashion series: Arnold, Janet. Patterns of Fashion: The Cut and Construction of Clothes for Men and Women 1560=961620. New York: Drama Book Publishers, 1985. =20 Arnold, Janet. Patterns of Fashion 1: Englishwomen's Dresses and Their Construction 1660=961860. New York: Drama Book Publishers, 1972. =20 Arnold, Janet. Patterns of Fashion 2: Englishwomen's Dresses and Their Construction 1860=961940. New York: Drama Book Publishers, 1972. =20 =20 and these are excellent. Also: Waugh, Norah. Corsets and Crinolines. New York: Theatre Arts Books, 1970. =20 Waugh, Norah. The Cut of Men's Clothes 1600=961900. New York: Theatre Arts Books, 1964.=20 Waugh, Norah. The Cut of Women's Clothes 1600=961930. New York: Theatr= e Arts Books, 1968. =20 and=20 Hunnisett, Jean. Period Costume for Stage & Screen: Patterns for Women's Dress Medieval=961500. Studio City: Players Press, 1996. Hunnisett, Jean. Period Costume for Stage & Screen: Patterns for Women's Dress 1500=961800. Studio City: Players Press, 1991. Hunnisett, Jean. Period Costume for Stage & Screen: Patterns for Women's Dress 1800=961909. Studio City: Players Press, 1991. Each of these books covers a relatively broad time period, and thus can't go into any specific year in great detail. For that you need period pattern books, dressmaking manuals, fashion magazines, etc. You can of course buy antique ones, but they can be expensive and hard to find. Robb Shep publishes a good series of reprints though. There must be about 20 of them to date, I haven't counted. Some titles: Brown, P. Clement. Art in Dress. Mendocino: R. L. Shep, 1993. Devere, Louis. The Handbook of Practical Cutting on the Centre Point System. Mendocino: R. L. Shep, 1986. Giles, Edward B. The Art of Cutting and History of English Costume.=20 Hecklinger, Charles. Dress and Cloak Cutter: Women's Costume 1877=961882. Mendocino: R. L. Shep, 1987.=20 Holding, T. H. Late Victorian Women=92s Tailoring: The Direct System of Ladies=92 Cutting. Mendocino: R. L. Shep, 1997. =20 Hopkins, J. C. Edwardian Ladies' Tailoring: The Twentieth Century System of Ladies' Garment Cutting. Mendocino: R. L. Shep, 1990.=20 Minister, Edward & Son. The Complete Guide to Practical Cutting.=20 Shep, R. L., ed. Civil War Ladies: Fashions and Needle-Arts of the Early 1860s. Mendocino: R. L. Shep, 1987. Shep, R. L., ed. Late Georgian Costume. Mendocino: R. L. Shep, 1991. Shep, R. L. and W. S. Salisbury, eds. Civil War Gentlemen: 1860s Apparel Arts & Uniforms. Mendocino: R. L. Shep, 1994. Vincent, W. D. F. Tailoring of the Belle Epoque: Vincent's Systems of Cutting All Kinds of Tailor-Made Garments. Mendocino: R. L. Shep, 1991. Fran Grimble ------------------------------ End of h-costume-digest V1 #68 ****************************** h-costume-digest-approval@world.std.com (h-costume-digest)[36,282]CSuX:h-costume-digest v1 #69 Subject: h-costume-digest V1 #69 From: h-costume-digest-approval@world.std.com (h-costume-digest) Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 14:09:42 -0400 (EDT) h-costume-digest Tuesday, September 23 1997 Volume 01 : Number 069 In this issue: H-COST: favorite books H-COST: 2nd group addresses H-COST: museum of london book H-COST: Re: Favorite Books Re: H-COST: Swiss Guard clothing H-COST: Source for Spoon busks Re: H-COST: Source for Spoon busks Re: H-COST: Re: Questions about booklet H-COST: Mens clothing question Re: H-COST: Favorite books Re: H-COST: Mens clothing question H-COST: What Books to Buy in England H-COST: RE: addresses needed--What booklet? Re: H-COST: What Books to Buy in England H-COST: interesting exhibit - if it happens H-COST: swiss guard costume H-COST: hunnisett question Re: H-COST: 1870s mantua makers and textile mills H-COST: Costume designs for 1940's in England. H-COST: Study Tour Re: H-COST:theater techniques Re: H-COST:theater techniques Re: H-COST: What Books to Buy in England H-COST: Modesty in costume Re: H-COST:theater techniques Re: H-COST:theater techniques Re: H-COST: Mens clothing question ---------------------------------------------------------------------- shepgibb@mcn.org (r.l. shep)[20,283]CSuX:favorite books Subject: H-COST: favorite books From: shepgibb@mcn.org (R.L. Shep) Date: Sun, 21 Sep 1997 13:53:11 +0100 - -Poster: shepgibb@mcn.org (R.L. Shep) I have a lot of favorite books - but a few of them are: Victorian Costume by Anne Buck - - Cutting a Fashionable Fit by Claudia Kidwell - - After a Fashion: How to Reproduce, Restore, and Wear Vintage Styles by Frances Grimble - - A Dictionary of English Costume 900-1900 by C.W. & P.E. Cunnngton, & Charles Beard. - -Threads of Identity - Embroidery & Adornment of the Nomadic Rabaris by Judy Frater - - The Sari - Styles, Patterns, History, Techniques by Linda Lynton. - - and I have just seen The Edwardian Modiste - 85 Authentic Patterns with Instructions, Fashion Plates, and Period Sewing Techniques by Francis Grimble - good enough that I wish I had done it. ~!~ R.L. Shep ------------------------------ penny e. ladnier [114,284]CSuX:2nd group addresses Subject: H-COST: 2nd group addresses From: "Penny E. Ladnier" Date: Sun, 21 Sep 1997 20:03:18 -0400 (EDT) - -Poster: "Penny E. Ladnier" I know need snail mail addresses from the second group of people in my database. If your name is on the list at the end of this message please respond. If you are in the first group that I listed and I haven't heard from you...please respond soon. Please read all of this message before responding. The h-costume booklet is going to the printer next week. I am going to start asking for snail mail addresses for only the people who sent me information previously. PLEASE do not send me your address until I list your name on the h-costume list. There are 200 of you in my database and I am trying to keep this as organized as possible. The first and second part of my list I am list have been sent only. I will catch the rest of you in the third or fourth postings. When I finish the fourth groups posting, I will see if I missed someone. When you respond to me, PLEASE follow the directions: 1. In the subject header, place the words, ADDRESS # and put in the number by your name on the following list. I am ADDRESS #1, so if I was emailing this I would put in the subject header ...ADDRESS#1. This is your database locating number and it makes life easier for me to locate you in the database. 2. In the body of the email, send me only, the following information: Your Name Street or P.O. Box City State Zip Country (if not the US) Please stack the above information as I just did. It is easier for me to enter the information into the database. Do not send me your phone numbers and do not send this entire message back to me as a reply. I, too, have to save memory on my computer. If your name is on the following list and I do not hear back from you, I will assume you are no longer on the h-costume list. ******************I NEED ADDRESSES FROM:************************** ID Name 51-Fina, Sharron 52-Walker, Diane 53-Taylor, Dianne 54-Middleton, Gail E. 55-Markham, Jennifer 56-Hill, Brian 57-Christen, Bill & Glenna Jo 58-Tegarden, Rici 59-Lee, Guinevere White 60-Rizzo, Rebecca A. 61-Barber, Roxann 62-LaVenture, Mary 63-Birner, William (Bill) B. 64-Houghton, Michael and MJ 65-Shep, R.L. 66-LaBarthe, Lydie 67-Gavino-Gattshall, Gia 68-Moody, Erin H. 69-Adams, Julie 70-Fiore, Karilynn 71-Kaufman, Becky 72-Perry, Diane 73-Van Cleave, Kendra 74-Nicol, Noelle 75-NiDana, Molly Morgaine 76-Cook, Amber 77-Huff, Carol 78-Jones, Janice 79-Nunn-Weinberg, Danielle 80-Russell, Kat 81-Hunter, Gray 82-Toorans, Sue 83-Yeldham, Caroline 84-Whisler, Katharine 85-Dearborn, Loren 86-Stengel, Nancy 87-Gawne, Agnes 88-Hedgecock, Jeffrey 89-Day, Sherry 90-Pettersson, Ninni M. 91-Cannon, Nora 92-Falsken, Joycelyn 93-Stephens, Lorina 94-Roy, Linda 95-Hamilton, Marsha J. 96-Noe, Dianne 97-Peck, Marlo W. 98-Ostwald, Tricia 99-Davis, Cynthia C. 100-Winkler, Barbara Maren Funny...I seem to know a lot of this group! Later...Penny Penny E. Dunlap Ladnier, s0peladn@erols.com Historic Costume Research Web Page http://www.geocities.com/FashionAvenue/1899 member: Costume Society of America American Fashion Council Virginia Commonwealth University Alumni (finally!) ------------------------------ pulliam@acadia.net (deborah pulliam)[14,285]CSuX:museum of london book Subject: H-COST: museum of london book From: pulliam@acadia.net (Deborah Pulliam) Date: Sun, 21 Sep 1997 20:24:26 -0400 - -Poster: pulliam@acadia.net (Deborah Pulliam) For anyone who's looking for the Museum of London textile book (in the US), Halcyon Yarn in Bath, Maine is now carrying it. They have a 1-800- phone number, and a web page. Plimoth Plantation also sometimes has it in their bookstore, but I don't know if they do mail order. Deborah ------------------------------ danine cozzens [23,286]CSuX:favorite books Subject: H-COST: Re: Favorite Books From: Danine Cozzens Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 05:52:30 -0700 - -Poster: Danine Cozzens Love these posts (as a confirmed book-a-holic). I would add Nancy Bradfield's _Costume in Detail:1730-1930_ to the list (unless I missed a posting). The black-and-white drawings really capture the charm of Englishwomen's dress in this period, plus they show how the dresses are constructed in terms of openings and closing. For color books, I frequently return to _Revolution in Fashion, 1715-1815_, and to _With Grace and Favor_ for the Victorian-Edwardian era. The Cunnington's _Englishwomen's Costume in the Nineteenth Century_ is another personal favorite. Fran Grimble's _After a Fashion_ is a book I recommend to people who are starting out in historic costume; it's a great jumping-off point for further research. Danine Cozzens danine@earthlink.com ------------------------------ trekona@erols.com[22,287]CSuX:swiss guard clothing Subject: Re: H-COST: Swiss Guard clothing From: trekona@erols.com Date: Mon, 22 Sep 97 13:32:23 GMT - -Poster: trekona@erols.com Hi Britt (And Lyn Parkinson): > Golly. What was the date of the uniform, do you know? > I would very much like the information. I'm in Oregon, so a trip over for a > look is kind of out of the question, but they might be amenable to sending > information if I ask nicely. I actually managed to find a AAA book for VT and found the mansion we had stopped at. The town is Proctor VT (and it is famous for marble, not granite - oops!) and the house is called Wilson Castle. Sorry, I have no idea what exact date of the uniform - medieval/renaissance sometime (definately not modern). I believe it was in yellow and red/orange, puffed upper sleeve, doublet & knee-length full pants; as I said, made of wool. They have an address that says:'write for folder' but I'm sure they'd pass on a request - Wilson Castle PO Box 290 Center Rutland VT 05736. Or you can call (802) 773-3284. Good Luck! -Judy Mitchell ------------------------------ aleed [31,288]CSuX:source for spoon busks Subject: H-COST: Source for Spoon busks From: aleed Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 09:31:47 -0400 - -Poster: aleed A while back, I heard people complaining that spoon busks were impossible to find. (I was one of them.) But I just got email from Shenlei Winkler about a place to buy them from. Here's the forwarded message: - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- A company called C&S construction has a very small selection, albeit in *sizes* (whoopee!) 12, 13, and 16". They are *not* inexpensive. See their enclosed response to me: > Thanks for your recent message. We will be pleased to >supply you with two each of 12",13" and 16" spoon busks. The total >cost will be 92 US Dollars which includes postage. We regret that >we are unable to accept payment by any type of credit card. Either >a personal check or cashiers check will be fine. Please can you >make it payable to S.R.Trench-Brown. Our mailing address is:- >C&S Constructions. >40, Whaley Road, >Wokingham. >Berkshire. >RG40 1QA >United Kingdom. >hourglass@staylace.win-uk.net ------------------------------ mara riley [14,289]CSuX:source for spoon busks Subject: Re: H-COST: Source for Spoon busks From: Mara Riley Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 10:42:24 -0400 (EDT) - -Poster: Mara Riley On Mon, 22 Sep 1997, aleed wrote: > A while back, I heard people complaining that spoon busks were impossible > to find. (I was one of them.) But I just got email from Shenlei Winkler > about a place to buy them from. Here's the forwarded message: What is a spoon busk? Corbie ------------------------------ roxann barber [24,290]CSuX:questions about booklet Subject: Re: H-COST: Re: Questions about booklet From: Roxann Barber Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 08:59:21 -0700 - -Poster: Roxann Barber Penny E. Ladnier wrote: > > I am sorry that it has taken me a while to get this publication out. I went > through the process of buying a house and moving (with 5 kids). All this > and finishing my last two classes in college. That's how publishing > goes...anything can happen. Thanks for your patience! > > Later...Penny Okay, I quit feeling sorry for myself after reading the above! I just wanted to say thank you to Penny for the work she has put into organizing our little booklet and I am looking forward to "meeting" my fellow list members. Roxy Barber ------------------------------ sidne kneeland [21,291]CSuX:mens clothing question Subject: H-COST: Mens clothing question From: Sidne Kneeland Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 10:05:12 -0500 - -Poster: Sidne Kneeland Greetings and goodday list! I have a question which I hope will not be misinterpreted. It seems in retrospect that our forebearers were for the most part more modest than we are today, or what we consider ourselves. Given that, what was the reason women wore long dresses and men wore hose/leggings/or shorter tunics rather than pants as we know them? Was it a functional thing, unable to sew them and get in and out without zippers and buttons? or another reason? comfort? In an aside, I am trying to create recreated clothing for the males in my family and we both are uncomfortable with hose/tights or the very short tunics. Any insights? Sidne ------------------------------ jean waddie [35,292]CSuX:favorite books Subject: Re: H-COST: Favorite books From: Jean Waddie Date: Sun, 21 Sep 1997 15:16:52 +0100 - -Poster: Jean Waddie My favourite books, if you can get them, are the Visual History of Costume series. These are so wonderful because they pull together all the best costume-reference portraits from a period, so you don't have to go slogging through landscapes and still-lifes to find the dress you want to make! The portraits are reproduced (mostly in black and white, unfortunately) with notes on the main features of the clothes, and where relevant the class, occupation, age and fashionableness of the wearer. There is also an introductory overview of the development of costume through the period at the start of each book. The sixteenth century book is still in print, and I think the nineteenth century. There were also fourteenth/fifteenth (lots of details from tomb effigies), seventeenth and eighteenth centuries, which you may be able to get from your library. The books are each by different authors, and are published by BT Batsford Ltd, London. The sixteenth century one is by Jane Ashelford, ISBN 0713468289. In message <970919090430_1428064647@emout09.mail.aol.com>, BronwenS@aol.com writes >-Poster: BronwenS@aol.com > >I've decided that I'd like to put together a list of costume books to see >what is out there that I don't have. So I would like the help of the list by >telling what their MOST favorite costume book is, and why. Besides, this >might be a fun discussion for the list:) > >Bronwen - -- Jean Waddie ------------------------------ mara riley [43,293]CSuX:mens clothing question Subject: Re: H-COST: Mens clothing question From: Mara Riley Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 15:25:45 -0400 (EDT) - -Poster: Mara Riley On Mon, 22 Sep 1997, Sidne Kneeland wrote: > -Poster: Sidne Kneeland > > Greetings and goodday list! > > I have a question which I hope will not be misinterpreted. It seems in > retrospect that our forebearers were for the most part more modest than > we are today, or what we consider ourselves. Um... I dunno; some cultures went about naked until missionaries came along and told them they were doing something wrong! > Given that, what was the reason women wore long dresses and men wore > hose/leggings/or shorter tunics rather than pants as we know them? Was > it a functional thing, unable to sew them and get in and out without > zippers and buttons? or another reason? comfort? Long dresses: easy to make & wear, and can be layered over other long dresses for greater warmth; don't need alteration for multiple pregnancies, as long as they're not too tailored. Shorter tunics/Hose/leggings: for riding horses, running, physical activity. In periods where men wore longer robes, these were generally a sign of prestige or status, or were worn by older men, whereas the younger, more physically active youth wore shorter versions. > In an aside, I am trying to create recreated clothing for the males in > my family and we both are uncomfortable with hose/tights or the very > short tunics. Any insights? > > Sidne What period is the clothing are you trying to work with? Corbie ------------------------------ stacey_weinberger@swpco.com[24,294]CSuX:what books to buy in england Subject: H-COST: What Books to Buy in England From: Stacey_Weinberger@Swpco.com Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 16:58:46 -0400 - -Poster: Stacey_Weinberger@Swpco.com Stacey Weinberger@ITP 09/19/97 12:25 PM Greetings List! I have a friend who is going to England in a few weeks and she said she would any books for me. I was wondering if there are any great must-have costume related books available in England that aren't available in the States. My periods of interest are Elizabethan England and England 1800-1865. Thank you! Stacey ------------------------------ tobeypam@washpost.com[15,295]CSuX:addresses needed--what booklet? Subject: H-COST: RE: addresses needed--What booklet? From: tobeypam@washpost.com Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 17:08:06 -0400 - -Poster: tobeypam@washpost.com Just wondering, since I had been unsubscribed for 6 months and only recently returned to the list, what booklet is Penny talking about? Glad to be back on the list :-) Pam Tobey tobeypam@washpost.com ------------------------------ seamstrix@juno.com[13,296]CSuX:what books to buy in england Subject: Re: H-COST: What Books to Buy in England From: seamstrix@juno.com Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 16:23:37 -0700 - -Poster: seamstrix@juno.com At the Museum of London(if I recall correctly) I found a book called 'Tudor and Elizabethan Jewelry'. It is currently packed so I can't cite the author, but I have never seen it offered in the States. It has great info on the development of jewelry styles as well as great color portraits. Karen ------------------------------ su carter [44,297]CSuX:interesting exhibit - if it happens Subject: H-COST: interesting exhibit - if it happens From: "Su Carter" Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 17:39:00 -0400 - -Poster: "Su Carter" Thought I'd share this news item from another list. The exhibit sure sounds interesting!! Let's hope it's not 'corrected' into worthlessness!! Su _ Su Carter Williamsburg, VA, USA scarter@widomaker.com ======================================== Smithsonian Works to Defuse Criticism of Exhibition -- An exhibition at the Smithsonian's National Museum of American History titled Between a Rock and a Hard Pace: A Dialogue on American Sweatshops, 1820-Present, scheduled to open on April 15 is facing criticism from some apparel manufacturers. Peter Liebhold, one of the exhibit's curators, has stressed the museum's efforts to have a balanced presentation. From the beginning of the planning process, he said, they have sought the participation of manufacturers, unions, retailers, and foundations. Seeking to place the issue in a broad context, the curators explore such issues as the historic relationship between immigration and sweatshops. A controversial aspect of the exhibit are plans to include a re-creation of portions of an El Monte apartment complex sweatshop where illegal Thai immigrants were discovered working under deplorable conditions in 1995. Although the curators have tried to include good industry practices as well as poor ones, the American Apparel Manufactures Association and the National Retail Federation have voiced criticism. While encouraging continued dialogue with the critics, the leadership of the Smithsonian, nevertheless, stands strongly behind the exhibit which has undergone a thorough review process. NCC Washington Update, vol. 3, # 39, September 17, 1997 by Page Putnam Miller, Director of the National Coordinating Committee for the Promotion of History =================================================== ------------------------------ gaelscot@aol.com[23,298]CSuX:swiss guard costume Subject: H-COST: swiss guard costume From: Gaelscot@aol.com Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 08:49:04 -0400 (EDT) - -Poster: Gaelscot@aol.com Hello all -- I'm afraid that I can't shed any more light on how to make the Swiss Guard costume. But I do have a warning: It's GOT TO be made with the organ pipe pleats. I once saw a reproduction made without them. It was made of two colors of cotton or cotton/poly broadcloth, and the woman who made it had pieced all the stripes. She had put in hours and hours and done a great job of sewing, but a) it didn't look right flat, and b) the lightweight fabric didn't work at all. After all that time and effort, she pretty much produced an extremely fancy t-tunic. It was long ago, and one of my first lessons in fabric weight and cut. Yes, back in the days when I thought you could make anything out of any fabric. Anyone else remember them? Gail Finke ------------------------------ gaelscot@aol.com[20,299]CSuX:hunnisett question Subject: H-COST: hunnisett question From: Gaelscot@aol.com Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 08:49:07 -0400 (EDT) - -Poster: Gaelscot@aol.com I have finally gotten ahold of Jean Hunnisett's book on medieval clothes, and I am very impressed. It's not authoritative, in terms of historic clothing, and she says so clearly. But she's certainly done a lot of good research. I especially like the sewing tips -- not knowing much beyond your basic home ec course, I liked the info about why large pieces are hard to sew, and how and why to hang different garments before hemming, etc. But I am not sure which of her sewing instructions are the kind of thing one does to fine garments, and which are specifically for theater. When would you NOT want to use a theater technique, and why? Could someone illuminate? Thanks! Gail Finke ------------------------------ molly nidana [32,300]CSuX:1870s mantua makers and textile mills Subject: Re: H-COST: 1870s mantua makers and textile mills From: "Molly NiDana" Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 09:50:44 -0400 - -Poster: "Molly NiDana" I've been pursuing my family genealogy, and this afternoon I discovered that my great-grandmother Susan Killian is listed in the 1870 census as a mantua-maker in South Providence, Rhode Island. Well, actually, the line says "dressmaker" and then over it in the same handwriting is "mantua-maker. Her mother and two of her sisters living in the same house worked in a "cotton mill". I know we've had discussion of mantua makers from this period before, but naturally I didn't pay any attention . Can anyone tell me anything about what specifically a mantua maker was in this location and time period? Why would the correction have been entered, was it a special class of dressmaker? In case it makes any difference, they were Irish (my great-great-grandmother still spoke only Irish Gaelic and had not been naturalized by 1900, so I'm assuming a Gaelic-speaking immigrant environment even though my great-grandmother and her sisters were all born in Rhode Island). Anything on the subject would be of interest to me, or if someone wants to point me to the archives, that would be great also. I do focus Irish, but usually about 1200 years earlier! Thanks, Molly Molly Ni/Dana ------------------------------ meher@bom2.vsnl.net.in[10,301]CSuX:costume designs for 1940 s in england. Subject: H-COST: Costume designs for 1940's in England. From: meher@bom2.vsnl.net.in Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 09:51:19 -0400 - -Poster: meher@bom2.vsnl.net.in Where on the net can I find any designs or photgraphs that will give me a clear idea of the kind of clothes worn in England during the 1940's? ------------------------------ penny e. ladnier [41,302]CSuX:study tour Subject: H-COST: Study Tour From: "Penny E. Ladnier" Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 10:22:02 -0400 - -Poster: "Penny E. Ladnier" I forgot to tell you about a four day study tour that is being sponsored by the Costume Society of America. The tour will run between October 25-28 in the mid Atlantic States. The tour is devoted to costume in context with the decorative arts, architecture, people, politics, and gardens in Pennsylvania, Delaware, Maryland, Washington DC, and Northern Virginia. During the day exhibitions and specially arranged behind the scenes tours of costume facilities will be viewed. There will be lectures in the evenings. October 25- Philadelphia Museum of Fine Arts October 26- Rockwood Museum & Gardens- Wilmington, Delaware; Stratford Hall Plantation (an overnighter) October 27- Stratford Hall, Mount Vernon October 28- Hillwood Museum (Marjorie Merriweather Post home), DAR Museum A fifth day maybe added in Washington DC, Oct. 29, to be attend lectures at the Smithsonian and National Catheral for an additonal price. For more information and a brochure call Loreen Finklestein, Colonial Williamsburg Foundation, 757-220-7077. Deadline October 5th. Please pass this message on to other mailing lists. Later...Penny Penny E. Dunlap Ladnier, s0peladn@erols.com Historic Costume Research Web Page http://www.geocities.com/FashionAvenue/1899 member: Costume Society of America American Fashion Council Virginia Commonwealth University Alumni (finally!) ------------------------------ jweidman@invest.treas.state.mi.us[21,303]CSuX:theater techniques Subject: Re: H-COST:theater techniques From: jweidman@invest.treas.state.mi.us Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 11:33:57 -0400 - -Poster: jweidman@invest.treas.state.mi.us Remember, theater techniques are made for LOTS and LOTS of wear and cleaning, shows are 7, 8 times a week. A great article in a long ago Threads Magazine illustrated some of the shortcuts used. For example, the huge Whopper Popper snaps and enormous hooks and eyes for easy on/off and long term wear. (And this was in a bridal gown talk about Construction!) Also, fabric is not seen up close, but from afar, so many substitutions are used, such as painted and dyed applications to simulate fancier, more expensive fabrics. "Ageing" fabric is an interesting process in itself. True theater costuming is a real specialty niche, and the artists often accomplish long apprecticeships. Are there any experts on the list? My knowledge is very very sketchy, I know, would love to know more (or be corrected!). ;-) Jane Weidman ------------------------------ rognstad sylvia [44,304]CSuX:theater techniques Subject: Re: H-COST:theater techniques From: Rognstad Sylvia Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 10:27:00 -0600 (MDT) - -Poster: Rognstad Sylvia I have been a professional theatre costumer for many years. What you say is right on, except that costumes are not always made for long wear. Sometimes it's just the opposite and we'll throw things together using quick and dirty techniques that no one would use on streetwear. We also don't always have time to finish seams,although the advent of sergers was a godsend to the theatrical costume shop. Because the costumes are usually seen from a distance, we can get away with much sloppier sewing than usual, which is necessary when using inexperienced sewers like we have to depend on in an educational environment. I haven't seen Hunnisett's latest book, so I don't know what techniques she is calling theatrical and I doubt she would recommend sloppy sewing. I don't either, but sometimes, when you have an entire costume to make before the second act goes up, you do what you gotta do. Nevertheless, I find it a wonderfully creative (if grossly underpaid) field to work in, and while I'm taking a breather right now, I intend to go back to it again. Sylvia On Tue, 23 Sep 1997 jweidman@invest.treas.state.mi.us wrote: > -Poster: jweidman@invest.treas.state.mi.us > > > Remember, theater techniques are made for LOTS and LOTS of wear and > cleaning, shows are 7, 8 times a week. A great article in a long ago > Threads Magazine illustrated some of the shortcuts used. For example, the > huge Whopper Popper snaps and enormous hooks and eyes for easy on/off and > long term wear. (And this was in a bridal gown talk about Construction!) > Also, fabric is not seen up close, but from afar, so many substitutions are > used, such as painted and dyed applications to simulate fancier, more > expensive fabrics. "Ageing" fabric is an interesting process in itself. > True theater costuming is a real specialty niche, and the artists often > accomplish long apprecticeships. > Are there any experts on the list? My knowledge is very very sketchy, I > know, would love to know more (or be corrected!). ;-) > Jane Weidman > > > ------------------------------ karren schaeffer [20,305]CSuX:what books to buy in england Subject: Re: H-COST: What Books to Buy in England From: Karren Schaeffer Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 09:43:42 -0700 - -Poster: Karren Schaeffer Stacey, I saw some great books at the V & A on my last trip. My favorite is "The Victoria & Albert Museum's Textile Collection - Embroidery in Britain from 1200 to 1750" by King and Levey (ISBN 1 85177 126 3). This book has a history of the collection and 123 glorious color plates. Most are close enough to be able to count stitches and the colors match the originals very well. If they have a similar book on their costume collection, religious vestments collection or lace collection they would be valuable additions. Happy Hunting, Karren ------------------------------ kate m bunting [23,306]CSuX:modesty in costume Subject: H-COST: Modesty in costume From: KATE M BUNTING Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 17:49:38 +0000 - -Poster: KATE M BUNTING I've often thought it was fascinating that different eras seem to have had different concepts of modesty in dress - e.g. in Victorian times a woman had to hide her ankles, yet a fairly low decollete was standard formal evening wear (unlike today when, if you don't have the figure or the courage for a low-cut dress, you can simply choose another style.) I assume Sidne is referring to mediaeval styles; their tight-fitting hose and codpiece seem mildly indecent to our eyes, not accustomed to seeing the male anatomy emphasised, but I wonder whether our modern bras giving a "natural" bustline would not have seemed equally disconcerting to people in those centuries when straight-fronted corsets were the norm? Kate Bunting University of Derby King's Lifeguard of Foote, Sealed Knot ------------------------------ petersr@spiegel.becltd.com (peters, rise j.)[43,307]CSuX:theater techniques Subject: Re: H-COST:theater techniques From: PETERSR@spiegel.becltd.com (Peters, Rise J.) Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 13:19:26 -0500 - -Poster: PETERSR@spiegel.becltd.com (Peters, Rise J.) jweidman wrote, in part: >>Also, fabric is not seen up close, but from afar, so many substitutions are used, such as painted and dyed applications to simulate fancier, more expensive fabrics. "Ageing" fabric is an interesting process in itself. >>Are there any experts on the list? I would not consider myself an expert, but I can vouch for your points above. For theatrical costuming, I once made a stunning wedding gown out of a bolt of nasty white fabric bought for $1/yard (they really wanted to get rid of it) and an old set of lace curtains. From 15 feet away under stage lights it was spectacular. But you wouldn't want to get married in it. Regarding aging, I once had the experience of making a beautiful hand-tailored jacket, in a man's style, sized to fit a woman, padded and shaped to give her a "manly" physique, and after doing all the pad stitching and so on had to "age" it with a metal file and bar of soap. Talk about painful. Then there was the beautiful brocade skirt, yards and yards of train, that was made out of ivory colored canvas, completely assembled, and =then= we painted the brocade design (complete with highlights) where it would have gone had the fabric been striped before cutting. Why not stripe before cutting? Because the painting process was so elaborate we weren't about to paint an extra inch of fabric if we didn't have to. Plus, it's easier to match the stripes at the seams if you paint them after the seams are there Theatrical costuming is also frequently somewhat exaggerated in shape, just as stage makeup is much "more" than you would wear on the street, so it will "read" correctly under lights and from a distance. When the designer is using the costumes to make a textual point as well, this exaggeration or even distortion is greater. =Caitlin, who started such an apprenticeship years ago... ------------------------------ mzscahlett@aol.com[56,308]CSuX:theater techniques Subject: Re: H-COST:theater techniques From: MzScahlett@aol.com Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 13:47:55 -0400 (EDT) - -Poster: MzScahlett@aol.com In a message dated 97-09-23 12:55:01 EDT, rognstad@stripe.Colorado.EDU writes: << I have (also) been a professional theatre costumer for many years.>> and both Sylvia and Jane make excellent points. <> snip Sylvia is not kidding. The pressure can be incredible, and actors manage to rip costumes up pretty good on occasion --(especially younger ones--- I do children's & high school theater a great deal) You make things as sturdy as possible on a non-existent budget and hope that "little Suzie" doesn't come out of her dress by closing night. << Sometimes it's just the opposite and we'll throw things together using quick and dirty techniques that no one would use on streetwear.>> There have been times when somebody drops out of a cast a few days before opening and they were a size 9 female and are replaced with a 200 lb male (leads rarely drop out, but the chorus needs clothes too!!) and you have to improvise in a big way. My specialty is reclaiming and recycling clothing from thrift stores and with a bit of trim here, or a new seam there they turn into almost any period. <> My favorite story is when I did the Music Man 2 summers ago: My dancing corps were all complaining about their dresses. They said they didn't fit right. I'm standing there looking at them and wondering what the heck they are talking about, they look perfect. Then they said they "slip up" ... I said perplexedly, "what do you mean, slip up?" Then they said that their dresses slip "up" their legs when they do HANDSTANDS!!! I said, "No duh, ladies WHERE ARE YOUR BLOOMERS!" (they were all told to purchase or make bloomers by final dress rehearsal, so that they could do their acrobatics in the big dance number and we wouldn't have any "southern exposure"--- this was children's theater). They looked at me with the blankest expressions I had ever seen. This was 2-HOURS before curtain on opening night. I went to Target, bought 7 half-slips, and made bloomers in under an hour. Problem solved, but needless to say, the bloomers were literally thrown together. <> It always seems to be true that us artists are not appreciated (financially speaking) and it makes it difficult for us to pursue our chosen professions. I support myself with a day-job I hate, in order to costume shows by night/weekends. But the rewards are so great and the finished product such a high, I'd never be able to give it up. Angela ------------------------------ henk t jong [69,309]CSuX:mens clothing question Subject: Re: H-COST: Mens clothing question From: "Henk 't Jong" Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 20:09:36 +0200 - -Poster: "Henk 't Jong" Henk & Pauline 't Jong tScapreel Medieval Advisors Dordrecht, Netherlands Hello Sidne, You wrote: > I have a question which I hope will not be misinterpreted. It seems in > retrospect that our forebearers were for the most part more modest than > we are today, or what we consider ourselves. Depends on which class of society in which part of the world and in which time you mean. Rich youth had the money, wherewithal and backup to get away with shocking society and wearing extravagant clothes. Most people dressed for comfort, warmth, airyness and according to the contents of their purses and availability of cloth. Modesty is the norm, nudity or other 'shocking' (:-) behaviour is luxury. The church in particular has fulminated against all this immodest behaviour time after time, without any results at all. > > Given that, what was the reason women wore long dresses and men wore > hose/leggings/or shorter tunics rather than pants as we know them? Was > it a functional thing, unable to sew them and get in and out without > zippers and buttons? or another reason? comfort? I suppose you mean by this the period before buttons, hook-and-eyes and breeches were introduced. We often wondered why people wore seperate hose as they're bothersome to get into, but wear quite comfortably. And pants had been known in Western Europe up to about 1200 and were worn as underpants in all periods. I always suspected hose to have been a fashion statement by somebody famous, who whipped up a large and long lasting following ;-). Buttons, of course came into use in the late 13th c and started the advent of tailoring. Clothes did not have to be wide anymore and to be pulled on over the head. As you probably know; tight clothes made out of wool or linen are not comfortable to work or travel in. Only rich people with servants to work for them, could and wanted to be dressed in tight jerkins or kirtles (and those who wanted to make an impression on a young lady or man, of course, tried to imitate them and show of their bodily charms). Zippers only came into being in the last decade of the 19th c. > > In an aside, I am trying to create recreated clothing for the males in > my family and we both are uncomfortable with hose/tights or the very > short tunics. Any insights? As I tried to show above; most men through the 500-1500 period wore fairly long (thigh- or knee-lenght) cottes and surcottes, kiirtles or what have you. No hose were as tight as present day tights and never knitted, but made out of cloth. In my view these costumes look much more real and are much more common (if made from the right material and of the right width) than the exrtremely short doublets or pourpoints of youth and soldiers from the late 14th and 15th c (colourful and dashing as they can be on the right person of the right occupation or age). Hope this helps, Henk ------------------------------ End of h-costume-digest V1 #69 ****************************** h-costume-digest-approval@world.std.com (h-costume-digest)[30,310]CSuX:h-costume-digest v1 #70 Subject: h-costume-digest V1 #70 From: h-costume-digest-approval@world.std.com (h-costume-digest) Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 00:28:04 -0400 (EDT) h-costume-digest Thursday, September 25 1997 Volume 01 : Number 070 In this issue: H-COST: Help with hat flowers H-COST: Mantua maker H-COST: Theatre tecniques H-COST: Women's photographs, 1860's Re: H-COST: 1870s mantua makers and textile mills Re: H-COST:theater techniques H-COST: Modesty Re: H-COST: swiss guard costume Re: H-COST:theater techniques H-COST: Lingere dresses Re: H-COST:theater techniques Re: H-COST: Lingere dresses Re: H-COST: Mantua maker Re: H-COST:theater techniques Re: H-COST:young actors H-COST: Seminar Notice RE: H-COST: Seminar Notice H-COST: Costume file Re: H-COST:young actors & wardrobe H-COST: favorite books Re: H-COST: Lingere dresses ---------------------------------------------------------------------- mdrbear@aol.com[14,311]CSuX:help with hat flowers Subject: H-COST: Help with hat flowers From: Mdrbear@aol.com Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 15:38:32 -0400 (EDT) - -Poster: Mdrbear@aol.com Hi all-I've been lurking on this list for a while and thought maybe someone here could help me. I make teddy bears in historical costume. I've done Henry VIII, Marie Antoinette, Napolean and Josephine and love using good fabrics and trims. The nicer the silks, brocades and beading, the happier I am. I'm doing a limited edition Victorian series and am looking for nice silk and velvet flowers as well as appropriate plumes. Does anyone know of sources - any help is appreciated. back to lurking, Martha from Wisconsin ------------------------------ mike newell <72123.411@compuserve.com>[12,312]CSuX:mantua maker Subject: H-COST: Mantua maker From: Mike Newell <72123.411@compuserve.com> Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 21:12:16 -0400 - -Poster: Mike Newell <72123.411@compuserve.com> Dear Molly- My guess is that your ancestor made better quality , fashionable clothing for the well-to-do, since mantua makers orginally made court clothing for ladies of fashion. Wow, upwardly mobile! - --Kathryn ------------------------------ lady catherine mcgire [15,313]CSuX:theatre tecniques Subject: H-COST: Theatre tecniques From: Lady Catherine Mcgire Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 22:21:36 -0400 - -Poster: Lady Catherine Mcgire I too have been a costumer for years. I'de like to add one more "joy" to the list. The satifaction of costumeing a whole opera, including the chorus for under $300. We uses quite a few donated wedding gowns and dyed them a rainbow of colors. It actually came out very well The opera was The Merry Widow. Patricia Fee ------------------------------ va-53rd@juno.com (fiftythird virginia)[31,314]CSuX:women s photographs, 1860 s Subject: H-COST: Women's photographs, 1860's From: va-53rd@juno.com (fiftythird virginia) Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 05:15:50 -0500 - -Poster: va-53rd@juno.com (fiftythird virginia) Hello, I've stepped beyond my sphere of knowledge with a few women's photographs I recently acquired, and could use some input. I have three photos of women on a sub page of my Civil War photos website, which need some more finely tuned observation. One is a tintype, and came with a tintype of a soldier, so I'm fairly confident it was taken during the war. They appear to have been framed together at one time (having been removed from the frame at some point before I got them). The other two are CDV's. Marks clearly show both originally had a stamp on the reverse, which someone has removed. Since there is no writing (other than a studio imprint on one) I am assuming these were revenue stamps, and therefore the photos are Civil War vintage. I don't know enough about women's clothing styles though to say much more though. If anyone would like to take a look, they are at http://members.tripod.com/~cwphotos/women.htm Bryan va-53rd@juno.com http://members.tripod.com/~cwphotos/index.htm Civil War Family Photos Project ------------------------------ christopher ballis [56,315]CSuX:1870s mantua makers and textile mills Subject: Re: H-COST: 1870s mantua makers and textile mills From: "Christopher Ballis" Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 17:46:27 +1000 - -Poster: "Christopher Ballis" >From Fairchild's Dictionary of Fashion... mantua (man-tu-a) Woman's overdress or gown worn over underskirt. Made with a loosely fitted unboned bodice joined to overskirt with long train. Split in front to expose petticoat. Worn on social or formal occasions from mid-17th to mid-18th c. Also called manteau, manto, manton, and mantau gown mantua maker 17th and 18th c. term for tailor or dressmaker, either man or woman. - -C. - ---------- > From: Molly NiDana > To: h-costume@world.std.com > Subject: Re: H-COST: 1870s mantua makers and textile mills > Date: 23 September 1997 23:50 > > -Poster: "Molly NiDana" > > > I've been pursuing my family genealogy, and this afternoon I > discovered that my great-grandmother Susan Killian is listed in the > 1870 census as a mantua-maker in South Providence, Rhode Island. > Well, actually, the line says "dressmaker" and then over it in the > same handwriting is "mantua-maker. Her mother and two of her sisters > living in the same house worked in a "cotton mill". > > I know we've had discussion of mantua makers from this period before, > but naturally I didn't pay any attention . Can anyone tell me > anything about what specifically a mantua maker was in this location > and time period? Why would the correction have been entered, was it a > special class of dressmaker? In case it makes any difference, they > were Irish (my great-great-grandmother still spoke only Irish Gaelic > and had not been naturalized by 1900, so I'm assuming a > Gaelic-speaking immigrant environment even though my > great-grandmother and her sisters were all born in Rhode Island). > > Anything on the subject would be of interest to me, or if someone > wants to point me to the archives, that would be great also. I do > focus Irish, but usually about 1200 years earlier! > > Thanks, Molly > > Molly Ni/Dana > > ------------------------------ christopher ballis [104,316]CSuX:theater techniques Subject: Re: H-COST:theater techniques From: "Christopher Ballis" Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 17:36:35 +1000 - -Poster: "Christopher Ballis" Hmm, the bit about actors, especially younger ones, ripping up costumes rings true. It is a habit I had seen in practise quite often until a couple of years ago when I costumed Barnum, a play with two-hundred-odd costumes. After a couple of dress rehearsals where the dressers were left with a heap of clothing, I told the costume coordinator to cease picking up after the actors. Within two rehearsals of having to dig out thier clothes and wear them all creased, they learnt the how to operate that miracle invention, the coathanger. It may seem an extreme measure and may bring you into arguement with production people or the director [but let's face it, directors only think they run the show ;-)], but it works. Now, if we could only come up with a way to stop them ripping stuff up DURING performances... - -C. - ---------- > From: MzScahlett@aol.com > To: rognstad@stripe.colorado.edu; jweidman@invest.treas.state.mi.us > Cc: h-costume@world.std.com > Subject: Re: H-COST:theater techniques > Date: 24 September 1997 03:47 > > -Poster: MzScahlett@aol.com > > In a message dated 97-09-23 12:55:01 EDT, rognstad@stripe.Colorado.EDU > writes: > > << I have (also) been a professional theatre costumer for many years.>> > and both Sylvia and Jane make excellent points. > > <> snip > > Sylvia is not kidding. The pressure can be incredible, and actors manage to > rip costumes up pretty good on occasion --(especially younger ones--- I do > children's & high school theater a great deal) You make things as sturdy as > possible on a non-existent budget and hope that "little Suzie" doesn't come > out of her dress by closing night. > > << Sometimes it's just the opposite and we'll throw things together using > quick and dirty techniques that no one would use on streetwear.>> > There have been times when somebody drops out of a cast a few days before > opening and they were a size 9 female and are replaced with a 200 lb male > (leads rarely drop out, but the chorus needs clothes too!!) and you have to > improvise in a big way. My specialty is reclaiming and recycling clothing > from thrift stores and with a bit of trim here, or a new seam there they turn > into almost any period. > > > < before the second act goes up, you do what you gotta do. >> > > My favorite story is when I did the Music Man 2 summers ago: My dancing > corps were all complaining about their dresses. They said they didn't fit > right. I'm standing there looking at them and wondering what the heck they > are talking about, they look perfect. Then they said they "slip up" ... I > said perplexedly, "what do you mean, slip up?" Then they said that their > dresses slip "up" their legs when they do HANDSTANDS!!! I said, "No duh, > ladies WHERE ARE YOUR BLOOMERS!" (they were all told to purchase or make > bloomers by final dress rehearsal, so that they could do their acrobatics in > the big dance number and we wouldn't have any "southern exposure"--- this was > children's theater). They looked at me with the blankest expressions I had > ever seen. This was 2-HOURS before curtain on opening night. I went to > Target, bought 7 half-slips, and made bloomers in under an hour. Problem > solved, but needless to say, the bloomers were literally thrown together. > > <> > > > It always seems to be true that us artists are not appreciated (financially > speaking) and it makes it difficult for us to pursue our chosen professions. > I support myself with a day-job I hate, in order to costume shows by > night/weekends. But the rewards are so great and the finished product such a > high, I'd never be able to give it up. > > Angela ------------------------------ mrs c s yeldham [100,317]CSuX:modesty Subject: H-COST: Modesty From: Mrs C S Yeldham Date: 24 Sep 97 10:17:00 GMT - -Poster: Mrs C S Yeldham Comments on Sidne's post and Henk's reply You wrote: >> I have a question which I hope will not be misinterpreted. It seems in >> retrospect that our forebearers were for the most part more modest than >> we are today, or what we consider ourselves. >Depends on which class of society in which part of the world and in which >time you mean. Rich youth had the money, wherewithal and backup to get away >with shocking society and wearing extravagant clothes. Not necessarily, it depends on when, where and who; the concept of modesty and what it covers (!) varies enormously. What is modest to you may well be deeply immodest to someone else - we see that today with Muslim fundamentalists' demands that women be modest! Any medieval woman (beware,generalisation coming up) would regard a modern woman as deeply immodest,because we show our hair in public. On the other hand, the Victorian period is regarded today as very modest but nude bathing by men in private (on private land, Turkish baths) was apparently not uncommon - remember the scene in 'Room with a View'. Actually, that was the scene that annoyed me in 'Pride and Prejudice' - on his own land, in private, why on earth would Darcy dive in fully dressed? >Most people dressed for comfort, warmth, airyness and according to the >contents of their purses and availability of cloth. True, within the context of what is the 'norm' for their culture/subculture, what is 'appropriate' in any time or place also has enormous influence. > > Given that, what was the reason women wore long dresses and men wore > hose/leggings/or shorter tunics rather than pants as we know them? Was > it a functional thing, unable to sew them and get in and out without > zippers and buttons? or another reason? comfort? I suspect I'm being confused by terminology here - what do you mean by 'pants'? As to why women wear long dresses and men hose or leggings, I don't know, the reasons are lost in the mists of time! Its not universal of course, Persian outfits reversed the convention, but it does seem very common. Even when men wore tunics, women's clothes were longer and fuller. I'm not too unhappy - England is often chilly and dresses are warmer! Henk said > I always suspected hose to have been a fashion >statement by somebody famous, who whipped up a large and long lasting >following ;-). Like it! >As you probably know; tight clothes made out of wool or >linen are not comfortable to work or travel in. This is the comment I felt was open to misinterpretation, especially since modern people tend to equate 'loose' with 'comfortable'. I'm sure Henk meant the extremes of fashion, when very tight hose/jerkins/kirtles were worn, and later, very tight corsets. These are not only uncomfortable, but often impossible to work in, and the high-fashion styles are designed to make it very clear that the wearer does not do physical work (BTW not only wool or linen, other fabrics too). However, well-fitted clothes, which are often tight by modern standards, are perfectly comfortable to work in, and speaking personally, I'd rather work in a boned bodice (16th century) than a bra. BTW, apart from other means of closing garments, there also seems to be good evidence that people might well be sewn into a garment, in order to ensure a really good fit. This might be an explanation of some of the really tight fitting hose. > >> In an aside, I am trying to create recreated clothing for the males in >> my family and we both are uncomfortable with hose/tights or the very >> short tunics. Any insights? >As I tried to show above; most men through the 500-1500 period wore fairly >long (thigh- or knee-lenght) cottes and surcottes, kiirtles or what have >you. No hose were as tight as present day tights and never knitted, but >made out of cloth. In my view these costumes look much more real and are >much more common (if made from the right material and of the right width) >than the exrtremely short doublets or pourpoints of youth and soldiers from >the late 14th and 15th c (colourful and dashing as they can be on the right >person of the right occupation or age). I'd agree, the hose when made out of wool tend to be no more revealing than tight jeans, and long over-garments are commonly worn over them - down to the ground for an older, richer, more formal man. On the other hand, if you do a lot of this, you just get used to men (and women) wearing very different clothes. When modern people start looking strange, you know you've got the bug (why do modern men look so dull? why are modern women wandering around in their shifts?). I made a knee-length 15th century doublet for my husband, but he rarely wears it! Good luck Caroline ------------------------------ eric praetzel [81,318]CSuX:swiss guard costume Subject: Re: H-COST: swiss guard costume From: Eric Praetzel Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 09:24:08 -0400 (EDT) - -Poster: Eric Praetzel Gail Finke wrote: > I'm afraid that I can't shed any more light on how to make the Swiss Guard > costume. But I do have a warning: It's GOT TO be made with the organ pipe > pleats. I once saw a reproduction made without them. It was made of two > colors of cotton or cotton/poly broadcloth, and the woman who made it had That sounds a bit familar. I made mine with a very flimsy cotton acetate brocade stuffed with quilting batting and backed with a very stiff fiber layer. I made tubes; sewed them together and then stuffed them some more. I tried a fabric strip on the inside to hold it all together/pull it into a circle. I don't know how my sewing machine was able to sew thru all of that!! I only had one needle that would reliably stitch thru all of the layers and often had to pull/push the wad of fabric & quilting batting thru the machine! Problems: 1) The cotton acetate is not color fast and far to flimsy. ie it is like sewing tissue paper to cardboard! 2) The backing material is far to stiff. All of the inward facing seams destroy my tights in short order. 3) Due to weight + relatively narrow waist strip; this outfit is uncomfortable to wear (although I've word it to a Vintage dance ball!!) 4) I like the look; but this thing is so big that it can't fit into my big camping backpack that I have! Washing it is out of the question. I could go on. I made the top in a tabbard style with the sides laced and that worked well. I did not sew it to the basses since that was not the style that I was trying to make (the fabric also would not handle it). I've got some excellent broacades now and I want to do it right this time. I've seen organ pleating and my only concern is that it would not be stiff/ full enough. My current basses have an excellent "chess piece" look to them that I love. The description that I have for a surviving set of basses did mention that they used 1/2" of padding and the inner layer was a very heavy linen. My lining material is like a good weight tent fabric; but nothing very stiff. I've just ordered Janet Arnolds' Patterns of Fashion 1560 .. 1620 and hope that there are some hints in there; at least about the organ pipe pleating. Amazingly enough nobody over here has seen basses! Looks like I'm the first and in traditional SCA fashion (ie done improperly; but not bad for a first attempt). The pictures I've seen show that the basses are either often overlaping and/or slit up the front/back and sides (the painting of the 4 Swiss knights). I'm not sure how it is possible to get the full look if you slit it. However mine is not slit and kneeling is not a possibility. >From an engineering standpoint there should be no way to make it hang full if you slit the sides very much. I don't think that I can reconcile the picture of a surving set of bases (slightly more than a half circle when laid out with an overlaping front area - no slits and some sort of string/band on the inside to pull the pleats in when compared to the paintings of the Swiss knights with slit basses that hang over their knees as if they were quite stiff/padded). I'm not sure of the point of the band on the inside. If the pleats are stiffish this would tend to stiffen the outfit; but that would assume that the pleast are stuffed. Given the size of the pleats; that would mean a stuffing thickiness of 1.5" (4cm)! I've done it; but I don't like it in terms of construction. I can't imagine the type of organ pipe pleating that I've seen working in this case. As you may have guessed; I am very hesitant about trying to make a second set of basses! I want to get it right; but research is a very weak area of mine and, being an engineer, I'm resigned to the fact that I usually have to do things 3 or 4 times before I start to get something that I like. - Eric Praetzel, http://sca.uwaterloo.ca ------------------------------ kate pinner [23,319]CSuX:theater techniques Subject: Re: H-COST:theater techniques From: Kate Pinner Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 09:32:54 -0700 - -Poster: Kate Pinner Christopher Ballis wrote: > > After a couple of dress rehearsals where the dressers were left with a heap > of clothing, I told the costume coordinator to cease picking up after the > actors. Within two rehearsals of having to dig out thier clothes and wear > them all creased, they learnt the how to operate that miracle invention, > the coathanger. I always tell them that if I find any costumes not hung up, I will take them away. And then I do. I lock them in the Stage Manager's office so the SM knows -- the next night there are frantic tears and cries of "I can't find my costume!" "Did you hang it up?" After they've learned the lesson, they get it back. - -- Kate Pinner Kelsey Theatre Tech Dir--Design Sets/Costumes ------------------------------ schmitt100@aol.com[15,320]CSuX:lingere dresses Subject: H-COST: Lingere dresses From: Schmitt100@aol.com Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 10:29:31 -0400 (EDT) - -Poster: Schmitt100@aol.com I have a friend who is getting married in April. What she would like for a wedding dress is something she called a "lingere dress" - popular in the late Victorian ere (1890 - 1910). Does anyone know anything about these dresses and/or where patterns might be found for them? Said friend has gone looking in vintage and antique shops but "those damn Victorians wore sizes 2-4 and yours truly is an 8!" Thanks for any help you can give! Rebecca ------------------------------ kelly rinne [32,321]CSuX:theater techniques Subject: Re: H-COST:theater techniques From: KELLY RINNE Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 09:38:06 -0500 - -Poster: KELLY RINNE Christopher Ballis wrote: > > -Poster: "Christopher Ballis" > > Hmm, the bit about actors, especially younger ones, ripping up costumes > rings true. It is a habit I had seen in practise quite often until a couple > of years ago when I costumed Barnum, a play with two-hundred-odd costumes. > > After a couple of dress rehearsals where the dressers were left with a heap > of clothing, I told the costume coordinator to cease picking up after the > actors. Within two rehearsals of having to dig out thier clothes and wear > them all creased, they learnt the how to operate that miracle invention, > the coathanger. I had a similar experience with the leading actor in that M________play, by Shakespeare. (for those of you who beleive the superstition) My trick was to have the stage manager pick up the balled-up silk costume, and store it in a plastic bag in the booth. 1-the funkiness of the costume got my message across 2-the fact that he had to go to stage management to get it got his hand slapped I have found that actors who have preciously worked internships where shop hours are combined with performing teach the rules pretty effectively. Kel ------------------------------ frances grimble [14,322]CSuX:lingere dresses Subject: Re: H-COST: Lingere dresses From: Frances Grimble Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 07:53:14 -0700 - -Poster: Frances Grimble Schmitt100@aol.com wrote: My new book _The Edwardian Modiste: 85 Authentic Patterns with Instructions, Fashion Plates, and Period Sewing Techniques_ contains 85 patterns for women's garments from 1905 through 1909, plus information on fabrics and sewing techniques. The patterns include lingerie dresses and petticoats, camisoles, etc. to wear under them. Fran Grimble ------------------------------ molly nidana [22,323]CSuX:mantua maker Subject: Re: H-COST: Mantua maker From: "Molly NiDana" Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 11:17:24 -0400 - -Poster: "Molly NiDana" > My guess is that your ancestor made better quality , fashionable > clothing for the well-to-do, since mantua makers originally made > court clothing for ladies of fashion. Wow, upwardly mobile! > Hmm. Well, we don't know just yet - it could have been downwardly mobile also... She did live in Olneyville, just outside Providence, RI. which as far as I can tell, was a mill town. She married my great grandfather (an Irish immigrant) 3 years later, and he was described in the 1900 census ( I know that's nearly 30 years later) as a pearl setter with his own shop. I'd dearly love to find some evidence of his designs... Molly Molly Ni/Dana ------------------------------ mzscahlett@aol.com[30,324]CSuX:theater techniques Subject: Re: H-COST:theater techniques From: MzScahlett@aol.com Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 13:42:53 -0400 (EDT) - -Poster: MzScahlett@aol.com << I had a similar experience with the leading actor in that M________play, by Shakespeare. (for those of you who beleive the superstition) My trick was to have the stage manager pick up the balled-up silk costume, and store it in a plastic bag in the booth. 1-the funkiness of the costume got my message across 2-the fact that he had to go to stage management to get it got his hand slapped I have found that actors who have preciously worked internships where shop hours are combined with performing teach the rules pretty effectively. >> It is refreshing to hear that those of you also working with younger actors have had similar experiences. There are some (usually in the smaller roles) who just have a sense of the importance of respect for everything in the theater and there are some more (usually young female leads) who are only aware of how they look in their outfits and be darned with caring for them. I like the idea of taking away clothes left on the floor and will run it by my SM for the next show. I am trying to acquire some dressers to assist with the many clothes changes so that the nice period clothes aren't trashed by the end of the run. There seems to be no end to the chaos back stage, but I firmly believe youngsters can do as well as adults if given a firm hand. Angela ------------------------------ susan fatemi [20,325]CSuX:young actors Subject: Re: H-COST:young actors From: Susan Fatemi Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 12:08:44 -0700 - -Poster: Susan Fatemi > > them all creased, they learnt the how to operate that miracle invention, > > the coathanger. I'll bet those kids don't hang up their clothes at home, either! When my son was involved with a "young actors workshop" for several years, *everybody*, even the budding stars, were required to do a little of *everything*, including tech and costuming. They had a lot more respect for the costumes if they had help make them, and if they had taken their turn cleaning up the "wardrobe". (what do you call the place where you store the costumes as opposed to the place where you make them??) susan fatemi ------------------------------ laurie kittle [76,326]CSuX:seminar notice Subject: H-COST: Seminar Notice From: Laurie Kittle Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 15:34:52 -0400 - -Poster: Laurie Kittle List, Doesn't it seem like there are too many seminars, etc. and never enough time and enough money to go to all of them. So, here is one more. Gunston Hall=92s Annual Decorative Arts Seminar Thursday, November 6, 1997 The World of Women 1700-1825 9:00 - 4:00 Lectures and Speakers: "Centre and Circumference: Women in Early America" Elisabeth Donaghy Garrett, Vice President, Sotheby=92s and Director of Educational Initiatives (Ms. Garrett is the author of that absolutely wonderful book "At Home: Th= e American Family".) "Boil=92d, Rubb=92d, and Rins=92d in the Tub: Laundry Methods in the 18th= & Early 19th Centuries" Jeanne Niccolls, Collections Manager, Fairfax County Park Authority. Some might be very familiar with the wonderful seminars she organizes in cooperation with George Mason University every spring. "The Women of Gunston Hall" Denise McHugh, Gunston Hall=92s Education Coordinator Demonstrations: Women and the Horse Frances M. Burroughs (Costume Design Center) and Allison Harcourt (Coach and Livestock=20 Division) , Colonial Williamsburg Foundation Open Hearth Cooking Demonstration Gunston Hall Docents=92 Association Laundry Demonstration "The First Efforts of an Infant=92s Hand: Virginia Girls and Their Needle Wisdom" Kimberly Smith Ivey, Associate Curator of Textiles, Colonial Williamsburg Foundation "Domestic Entanglements: Mistresses and Slaves at the Edge of the Upper S= outh" Kym S. Rice, Interim Director and Assistant Professor, Museum Studies Program, George Washington University For more information about prices and other details, contact Gunston Hall at (703) 550-9220 or the following email address: historic@gunstonhall.or= g. BTW, Gunston hall is the mid-eighteenth century home of George Mason=20 (1725-1792) well known for incredible interior wood carvings. George Maso= n was the author of the Virginia Declaration of Rights (which Mr. Jefferson liberally stole from for his document) and one of the 3 men who refused to sign the= U.S. Constitution. Gunston Hall is located about 20 miles south of Washington,= DC. Laurie Kittle Coordinator, The Gunstonians The living history players of Gunston Hall laurie.kittle@predictive.com ------------------------------ louise sugar [87,327]CSuX:seminar notice Subject: RE: H-COST: Seminar Notice From: Louise Sugar Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 16:34:26 -0400 - -Poster: Louise Sugar Gunson Hall is only about 15 min from where I live....they do a WONDERFUL job!!! and the Hall is lovely. I've been there several times and no matter what the season it is always a treat Louise - -----Original Message----- From: Laurie Kittle [SMTP:laurie.kittle@predictive.com] Sent: Wednesday, September 24, 1997 3:35 PM To: h-costume@world.std.com Subject: H-COST: Seminar Notice - -Poster: Laurie Kittle List, Doesn't it seem like there are too many seminars, etc. and never enough time and enough money to go to all of them. So, here is one more. Gunston Hall's Annual Decorative Arts Seminar Thursday, November 6, 1997 The World of Women 1700-1825 9:00 - 4:00 Lectures and Speakers: "Centre and Circumference: Women in Early America" Elisabeth Donaghy Garrett, Vice President, Sotheby's and Director of Educational Initiatives (Ms. Garrett is the author of that absolutely wonderful book "At Home: The American Family".) "Boil'd, Rubb'd, and Rins'd in the Tub: Laundry Methods in the 18th & Early 19th Centuries" Jeanne Niccolls, Collections Manager, Fairfax County Park Authority. Some might be very familiar with the wonderful seminars she organizes in cooperation with George Mason University every spring. "The Women of Gunston Hall" Denise McHugh, Gunston Hall's Education Coordinator Demonstrations: Women and the Horse Frances M. Burroughs (Costume Design Center) and Allison Harcourt (Coach and Livestock Division) , Colonial Williamsburg Foundation Open Hearth Cooking Demonstration Gunston Hall Docents' Association Laundry Demonstration "The First Efforts of an Infant's Hand: Virginia Girls and Their Needle Wisdom" Kimberly Smith Ivey, Associate Curator of Textiles, Colonial Williamsburg Foundation "Domestic Entanglements: Mistresses and Slaves at the Edge of the Upper South" Kym S. Rice, Interim Director and Assistant Professor, Museum Studies Program, George Washington University For more information about prices and other details, contact Gunston Hall at (703) 550-9220 or the following email address: historic@gunstonhall.org. BTW, Gunston hall is the mid-eighteenth century home of George Mason (1725-1792) well known for incredible interior wood carvings. George Mason was the author of the Virginia Declaration of Rights (which Mr. Jefferson liberally stole from for his document) and one of the 3 men who refused to sign the U.S. Constitution. Gunston Hall is located about 20 miles south of Washington, DC. Laurie Kittle Coordinator, The Gunstonians The living history players of Gunston Hall laurie.kittle@predictive.com ------------------------------ bronwens@aol.com[10,328]CSuX:costume file Subject: H-COST: Costume file From: BronwenS@aol.com Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 18:44:44 -0400 (EDT) - -Poster: BronwenS@aol.com Sorry to put this on the list, but Sarahj, I accidentaly deleated your address. I downloaded the file you sent me, but it came out all strambled. Please E-mail me. Bronwen ------------------------------ mzscahlett@aol.com[31,329]CSuX:young actors & wardrobe Subject: Re: H-COST:young actors & wardrobe From: MzScahlett@aol.com Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 22:50:10 -0400 (EDT) - -Poster: MzScahlett@aol.com In a message dated 97-09-24 15:43:32 EDT, susanf@eerc.berkeley.edu writes: << I'll bet those kids don't hang up their clothes at home, either! When my son was involved with a "young actors workshop" for several years, *everybody*, even the budding stars, were required to do a little of *everything*, including tech and costuming. They had a lot more respect for the costumes if they had help make them, and if they had taken their turn cleaning up the "wardrobe". >> It's really a good idea to involve the kids in the creation, care and production ends of the wardrobe. At my daughter's High School, which is where this production is taking place, they are involved in the creation, design and construction of the set, and respect it. They are all taught the workings of the flys, the traps etc etc and respect that. But there isn't a budget for any kind of sewing/costume construction classes, but perhaps its time to suggest something like that. I hate the cutbacks in funding the arts!!!! Some of the more responsible kids clean our costume-wardrobe-storage-facility (I don't know the name either ::g::) and then the other kids come along for some one-act drama workshop, pull everything off the hangers and leave whatever they don't need on the floor. It's criminal!!! ARGH! Angela ------------------------------ melanie schuessler [32,330]CSuX:favorite books Subject: H-COST: favorite books From: Melanie Schuessler Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 22:18:48 -0500 - -Poster: Melanie Schuessler Here are a few that haven't been mentioned but should be (IMHO): _The Italian Comedy_ by Pierre Louis Ducharte. One of the better Commedia dell'Arte compilations I have seen (and relatively cheap!)--has both text info and many pictures. reprinted by Dover ISBN# 0-486-21679-9 _Dressed for the Photographer: Ordinary Americans and Fashion, 1840-1900_ by Joan Severa. I know I've talked this one to death, but it's REALLY good. ISBN# 0-87338-512-8 _The Art of Dress: Clothes and Society 1500-1914_ by Jane Ashelford. fashion plates, text, pictures of garments, including a section on children and one on servants. ISBN# 0-8109-6317-5 _The Art of Dress: Fashion in England and France 1750-1820_ by Aileen Ribiero. has a lot about dress as seen in portraiture. ISBN# 0-300-06287-7 _Daily Life in Holland in the Year 1566 And the Story of My Ancestor's Treasure Chest_ by Rien Poortvliet. This is an absolutely beautiful book illustrated by hand and covering many aspects of life, including clothing and how it was worn. I'm not an expert on Dutch clothing of 1566, but it looks pretty convincing--any opinions, Henk? ISBN# 0-8109-3309-8 These are a few of my favorite things... Melanie ------------------------------ danine cozzens [52,331]CSuX:lingere dresses Subject: Re: H-COST: Lingere dresses From: Danine Cozzens Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 21:18:48 -0700 - -Poster: Danine Cozzens My review copy of _The Edwardian Modiste_ just arrived today (thanks, Fran!), and it is indeed replete with lovely designs, many of which were intended for what is known today as "heirloom sewing" techniques or what vintage stores call "lingerie dresses." Martha Pullen is the biggest "name" in this field, and has a book, _Heirloom Sewing for Women_, explaining it. She also has a weekly TV show on PBS and a web page. 80% of heirloom sewing info is for children, but can be applied to Edwardian women's clothes if you have a clue about what they look like. _Sew Beautiful_ magazine, published by Pullen, carries ads for many suppliers of the laces, madiera thread, and other supplies you need. The "lingerie dresses" were made using lace insertion, tucking, etc. on very fine fabrics such as batiste or silk, work that was used mainly on lingerie later in the century, hence the name. I don't think they were called "lingerie dresses" at the time; it seems rather daring for 1900... A modern bride could get quite a bit of wear from an heirloom sewing/lingerie dress wedding gown. One fashion was to wear different colored slips under white dresses, which might appeal to her if the dress seemd too "bridal" for subsequent wear. Danine Cozzens Frances Grimble wrote: > > -Poster: Frances Grimble > > Schmitt100@aol.com wrote: > > My new book _The Edwardian Modiste: 85 Authentic Patterns with > Instructions, Fashion Plates, and Period Sewing Techniques_ contains 85 > patterns for women's garments from 1905 through 1909, plus information > on fabrics and sewing techniques. The patterns include lingerie dresses > and petticoats, camisoles, etc. to wear under them. > > Fran Grimble ------------------------------ End of h-costume-digest V1 #70 ****************************** h-costume-digest-approval@world.std.com (h-costume-digest)[39,332]CSuX:h-costume-digest v1 #71 Subject: h-costume-digest V1 #71 From: h-costume-digest-approval@world.std.com (h-costume-digest) Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 14:49:20 -0400 (EDT) h-costume-digest Friday, September 26 1997 Volume 01 : Number 071 In this issue: Re: H-COST: Modesty Re: H-COST:young actors H-COST: test H-COST: Actors and costumes Re: H-COST: Actors and costumes Re: H-COST: Lingere dresses H-COST: Museums/Living History in the NYC area Re: H-COST: Actors and costumes H-COST: Theater techniques/Actors & wardrobe H-COST: Re: h-cost. favorite books Re: H-COST:young actors Re: H-COST: Actors and costumes Re: H-COST: Museums/Living History in the NYC area H-COST: RPFN Get-together: Sorry RE: H-COST: Modesty RE: H-COST: Modesty H-COST: spoon buscs H-COST: Italian Renaissance underclothing Re: H-COST: favorite books Re: H-COST: Actors and costumes Re: H-COST: Actors and costumes H-COST: MFA Costume Technology Re: H-COST: MFA Costume Technology H-COST: Haven't heard from Re: H-COST: Italian Renaissance underclothing H-COST: Duplicate mail messages and Netscape [Fwd: Re: [Fwd: Re: H-COST: Actors and costumes]] Re: H-COST: Italian Renaissance underclothing H-COST: undersleeves Re: H-COST: Italian Renaissance underclothing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- maggiros@aol.com[13,333]CSuX:modesty Subject: Re: H-COST: Modesty From: MaggiRos@aol.com Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 03:00:37 -0400 (EDT) - -Poster: MaggiRos@aol.com In a message dated 97-09-24 05:43:55 EDT, csy20688@ggr.co.uk writes: > - on his own land, in private, why on earth > would Darcy dive in fully dressed? To make sure he had his clothes still with him when he walked up to the house? Don't want to shock the servants. Just a thought. MaggiRos ------------------------------ maggiros@aol.com[14,334]CSuX:young actors Subject: Re: H-COST:young actors From: MaggiRos@aol.com Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 03:09:51 -0400 (EDT) - -Poster: MaggiRos@aol.com In a message dated 97-09-24 15:11:16 EDT, susanf@eerc.berkeley.edu writes: > (what do you call the place where you store the costumes > as opposed to the place where you make them??) > A closet? No no, I know that's wrong. A bed, yeah, that's it. :) MaggiRos ~away for days at a time, reduced to the occasional bon mot~ ------------------------------ connie carroll [11,335]CSuX:test Subject: H-COST: test From: "Connie Carroll" Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 04:40:06 +0000 - -Poster: "Connie Carroll" Test Kassandra ------------------------------ laurab@dynamite.com.au (laura barwick)[26,336]CSuX:actors and costumes Subject: H-COST: Actors and costumes From: laurab@dynamite.com.au (Laura Barwick) Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 20:10:32 +1000 - -Poster: laurab@dynamite.com.au (Laura Barwick) [snip] After a couple of dress rehearsals where the dressers were left with a heap of clothing, I told the costume coordinator to cease picking up after the actors. Within two rehearsals of having to dig out thier clothes and wear them all creased, they learnt the how to operate that miracle invention, the coathanger. [snip] The same technique was used by the very talented wardrobe mistress for a production of Christopher Marlowe's The Tragicall History of Doctor Faustus that I was involved with a few years ago. Those who didn't learn the lesson that red velvet Elizabethan garb was not to be thrown on the floor had pins hidden in the seams of certain intimate apparel. I will never forget the look on the lead actors face as he lunged forward, only to receive a very sharp pin in the groin. Strangely enough, he hung up everything afterwards. Laura B. ------------------------------ morghana@aol.com[25,337]CSuX:actors and costumes Subject: Re: H-COST: Actors and costumes From: Morghana@aol.com Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 09:56:04 -0400 (EDT) - -Poster: Morghana@aol.com In a message dated 97-09-25 07:49:16 EDT, laurab@dynamite.com.au writes: << The same technique was used by the very talented wardrobe mistress for a production of Christopher Marlowe's The Tragicall History of Doctor Faustus that I was involved with a few years ago. Those who didn't learn the lesson that red velvet Elizabethan garb was not to be thrown on the floor had pins hidden in the seams of certain intimate apparel. I will never forget the look on the lead actors face as he lunged forward, only to receive a very sharp pin in the groin. Strangely enough, he hung up everything afterwards. >> Forgive me, but I was laughing so hard when I read this I had tears in my eyes..... the mental picture this creates is just *too* sublime!!!! I wonder if everyone did this to their kids when growing up ......we'd have less to pick up after our mates? :::muttering::: Seems clear enough you *can* teach an old dog new tricks..... ~Morghana ------------------------------ frances grimble [49,338]CSuX:lingere dresses Subject: Re: H-COST: Lingere dresses From: Frances Grimble Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 08:17:18 -0700 - -Poster: Frances Grimble Danine Cozzens wrote: > > -Poster: Danine Cozzens > > My review copy of _The Edwardian Modiste_ just arrived today (thanks, > Fran!), and it is indeed replete with lovely designs, many of which were > intended for what is known today as "heirloom sewing" techniques or what > vintage stores call "lingerie dresses." Thanks, hope you like it. _The Edwardian Modiste_ contains about 40 pages from the 1907 sewing manual _The Complete Dressmaker_, which were selected because they contain techniques and procedures used for Edwardian sewing that may not be familiar to modern readers. The terms "lingerie" dress, blouse, etc. were used at the time. The chapter on blouses begins, "The lingerie waist is unquestionably the most popular waist of the day. . . Fine persian lawn, organdy, handkerchief linen, or other sheer materials, when trimmed with lace insertions, formed into designs or motifs, are very attractive. In fact, rows of insertions and tucks are very pretty, or allover tucking may also be made up in these materials. A fine under waist should also be worn with a lingerie waist, and should be quite elaborate with lace and insertions or handwork." The chapter on "gowns for various occasions" says in the wedding section "If the wedding is to be solemnized in the summer what prettier material could be suggested than swiss or chiffon organdy? It may be made very elaborately with lace, tucks, and insertions, and lined with taffeta silk. If a softer lining is more to her taste a pretty soft lawn trimmed with lace and insertion will do just as well." It goes on to discuss various non-lingerie-dress types of gown, and wedding accessories, the trousseau, etc. > A modern bride could get quite a bit of wear from an heirloom > sewing/lingerie dress wedding gown. One fashion was to wear different > colored slips under white dresses, which might appeal to her if the > dress seemd too "bridal" for subsequent wear. They are good dresses for vintage dance--lightweight and (hand) washable. Fran Grimble ------------------------------ kendra van cleave/ny [24,339]CSuX:museums/living history in the nyc area Subject: H-COST: Museums/Living History in the NYC area From: "Kendra Van Cleave/NY" Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 8:49:31 -0400 - -Poster: "Kendra Van Cleave/NY" Hello -- I have recently moved to New York City, and am looking for information on museums with costume exhibits. I've been to the Met (unfortunately, found the current exhibit at the Costume Institute to be disappointing) and to the Museum of the City of New York for their exhibit "New York Gets Married" which had some wonderful bridal gowns. Does anyone have any other recommendations of museums which might have costume-related exhibits? Also, I'm interested in getting involved in some sort of living history out here. If anyone has any information (I'm planning on looking into the Richmondtown Restoration on Staten Island) and could forward it to me, I would really appreciate it. I am interested in anything from the Rev. War through the 19th century, especially in historic dance. Thanks, Kendra Van Cleave kendrav@bizwire.com ------------------------------ petersr@spiegel.becltd.com (peters, rise j.)[12,340]CSuX:actors and costumes Subject: Re: H-COST: Actors and costumes From: PETERSR@spiegel.becltd.com (Peters, Rise J.) Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 11:50:29 -0500 - -Poster: PETERSR@spiegel.becltd.com (Peters, Rise J.) I still have a beautiful mental image of an actor rushing around backstage before his entrance for dress rehearsal going, where are my pants? where are my pants? when the answer was he'd thrown them down after costume parade and they'd mysteriously "gone missing." He was ready to go ahead and do his entrance without them when the costume mistress finally handed them over. ------------------------------ doris j. nash [18,341]CSuX:theater techniques/actors & wardrobe Subject: H-COST: Theater techniques/Actors & wardrobe From: "Doris J. Nash" Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 10:53:28 -0500 - -Poster: "Doris J. Nash" Hello list! I'd love to add my tuppence worth on the subject, but we open Sheridan's _School for Scandal_ a week from tomorrow =:-() and I don't have time, but thank you SO MUCH for all the laughs your anecdotes have provided! Doris ===+++=== Doris Nash Costume Shop Supervisor, Iowa State University "...with ruffs and cuffs, and farthingales and things." - --Shakespeare, The Taming of the Shrew ------------------------------ joycelyn falsken [25,342]CSuX:h-cost. favorite books Subject: H-COST: Re: h-cost. favorite books From: Joycelyn Falsken Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 09:41:08 -0700 - -Poster: Joycelyn Falsken I would highly recommend another book. It is not a "costume" book, but focuses on textile conservation. It was published by the Aubegg Foundation in Bern (author Schrift-?) and details many of their projects over the last several decades. The book is huge and has marvelous color photos with detail shots as well. Alot of the items included are religious textiles from as far back as the 12th century; georgously embroidered copes, gloves, and altar cloths. Also fragments of earlier textiles as well as several complete costumes, tapestries, and bed hangings. One particularly wonderful project they worked on was an altar cloth (?) which they discovered was overembroidered in the 19th century. When they removed the alteration, after much debate, they found beautiful fine embroidery of a much higher quality underneath worked in the 13th or 14th c. A hidden treasure! This is probably my most favorite book in our university library. I even contacted Stanford Library to see if they could find a copy for me to buy, but no luck. - -- Joycelyn Falsken ------------------------------ penny e. ladnier [48,343]CSuX:young actors Subject: Re: H-COST:young actors From: "Penny E. Ladnier" Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 13:09:14 -0400 - -Poster: "Penny E. Ladnier" At 12:08 PM 9/24/97 -0700, you wrote: >-Poster: Susan Fatemi > >> > them all creased, they learnt the how to operate that miracle invention, >> > the coathanger. > >I'll bet those kids don't hang up their clothes at home, either! Well, one in six of my kids hangs up his clothes. At least I got it right with one! As for theatre and respecting the costumes: I gave this same peice of advice to my 12 y.o. this week. He wants to work the technical areas (lighting, props...) for his school play but doesn't want to take the acting class. When you enter the theatre you have to respect everyones gift in the business. How else do you know how hard it is to make a costume, if you haven't made one before. Or how hard it is to get the lighting right if you have not worked lighting before. If you major in theatre in college, at least at VCU, everyone takes sewing construction, beginning acting & lighting. In their jr. & sr. years you really specialize in your field. This teaches the students to respect what everyone does, and that everyone's job is essential to the production of the show. Every actor needs a costume and spotlight. Later...Penny Penny E. Dunlap Ladnier, s0peladn@erols.com Historic Costume Research Web Page http://www.geocities.com/FashionAvenue/1899 member: Costume Society of America American Fashion Council Virginia Commonwealth University Alumni (finally!) ------------------------------ mzscahlett@aol.com[25,344]CSuX:actors and costumes Subject: Re: H-COST: Actors and costumes From: MzScahlett@aol.com Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 13:36:53 -0400 (EDT) - -Poster: MzScahlett@aol.com In a message dated 97-09-25 06:33:01 EDT Laura B. writes: << The same technique was used by the very talented wardrobe mistress for a production of Christopher Marlowe's The Tragicall History of Doctor Faustus that I was involved with a few years ago. Those who didn't learn the lesson that red velvet Elizabethan garb was not to be thrown on the floor had pins hidden in the seams of certain intimate apparel. I will never forget the look on the lead actors face as he lunged forward, only to receive a very sharp pin in the groin. Strangely enough, he hung up everything afterwards. Laura B. Laura, while effective, I think if I tried that on High School students, I'd be arrested and I'd get my teacher/director fired. But it would get results.... Angela >> ------------------------------ agnes gawne [13,345]CSuX:museums/living history in the nyc area Subject: Re: H-COST: Museums/Living History in the NYC area From: Agnes Gawne Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 11:03:09 -0700 (PDT) - -Poster: Agnes Gawne > Hello -- I have recently moved to New York City, and am looking for > information on museums with costume exhibits. You should contact the Fashion Institute of Technology (FIT) and see if they currently have a show. When they do, they are good. I saw a show there on the history of men's clothing that was quite nice, also free. They also happen to have a nice bookstore. ------------------------------ margo anderson [13,346]CSuX:rpfn get-together: sorry Subject: H-COST: RPFN Get-together: Sorry From: Margo Anderson Date: Wed, 25 Sep 1996 13:14:11 -0700 - -Poster: Margo Anderson To everyone who expressed an interest in the RPFN get together, I'm sorry, but it will be impossible for me to organize it. I have three weeks to pack and store everything we own and move my family into temporary residence with friends. Maybe next year? Margo Anderson ------------------------------ maggiros@aol.com(smtp:maggiros@aol.com)[24,347]CSuX: modesty Subject: Re: H-COST: Modesty From: MaggiRos@aol.com[SMTP:MaggiRos@aol.com] Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 13:06:23 -0700 - -Poster: Broneske An interesting question indeed. If it's the A&E version we are talking = about, I for one would have certainly enjoyed seeing Mr. Darcy in the = privacy of his own land (wink, wink, nod, nod) ;) Joan - ---------- - -Poster: MaggiRos@aol.com In a message dated 97-09-24 05:43:55 EDT, csy20688@ggr.co.uk writes: > - on his own land, in private, why on earth > would Darcy dive in fully dressed? To make sure he had his clothes still with him when he walked up to the house? Don't want to shock the servants. Just a thought. MaggiRos ------------------------------ maggiros@aol.com(smtp:maggiros@aol.com)[24,348]CSuX: modesty Subject: Re: H-COST: Modesty From: MaggiRos@aol.com[SMTP:MaggiRos@aol.com] Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 13:06:23 -0700 - -Poster: Broneske An interesting question indeed. If it's the A&E version we are talking = about, I for one would have certainly enjoyed seeing Mr. Darcy in the = privacy of his own land (wink, wink, nod, nod) ;) Joan - ---------- - -Poster: MaggiRos@aol.com In a message dated 97-09-24 05:43:55 EDT, csy20688@ggr.co.uk writes: > - on his own land, in private, why on earth > would Darcy dive in fully dressed? To make sure he had his clothes still with him when he walked up to the house? Don't want to shock the servants. Just a thought. MaggiRos ------------------------------ pastimpres@aol.com[9,349]CSuX:spoon buscs Subject: H-COST: spoon buscs From: Pastimpres@aol.com Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 23:23:18 -0400 (EDT) - -Poster: Pastimpres@aol.com Can someone please send me that adress for spoon buscs again? I accidentally erased it. Thanks a million! ------------------------------ d tkach [27,350]CSuX:italian renaissance underclothing Subject: H-COST: Italian Renaissance underclothing From: D Tkach Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 23:17:47 -0700 - -Poster: D Tkach I am new to the list and an enthusiastic beginning costumer who needs some advice from the experts! I am about to begin sewing a 15th century Italian Renaissance gown (high-waist, round neck, sleeves tied to bodice, cartridge pleating of skirt to bodice), but I have some questions about period underclothing. 1. Is there anything special about the chemise for such a gown? I was going to work with a basic long rectangular piece of fabric for the body, with two rectangles of fabric for full sleeves gathered at the armscye and at the wrist. 2. The instructions for the dress call for reinforcing the bodice of the dress itself with canvas and boning. Would a corset have ever been worn under the gown instead? And if so, what style of corset? Thanks for any help you can give me. I would like to construct the ensemble as accurately as possible. - --Darca Victoria, British Columbia tkach@uvic.ca ------------------------------ maggiros@aol.com[25,351]CSuX:favorite books Subject: Re: H-COST: favorite books From: MaggiRos@aol.com Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 02:48:00 -0400 (EDT) - -Poster: MaggiRos@aol.com In a message dated 97-09-25 04:18:19 EDT, mjschues@students.wisc.edu (Melanie Schuessler) writes: > This is an absolutely beautiful book > illustrated by hand and covering many aspects of life, including clothing > and how it was worn. I'm not an expert on Dutch clothing of 1566, but it > looks pretty convincing- You mean including the items straight out of Janet Arnold's book of the same period? The joke is the skirted doblet that this artist shows as closing all the way down the skirting, waist to hem! And he never does quite explain how the woman actually gets into/closes the dress. But hey, he's a great illustrator, and I love this book for the shoes--and the "naughty" pilgrim badges--alone. It isn't a primary source, no, but it is a wonderful evocation of the time and place. Great choice! MaggiRos Half-Flemish and oddly proud of it (go back far enough, we're all Celts anyway :) ------------------------------ maggiros@aol.com[16,352]CSuX:actors and costumes Subject: Re: H-COST: Actors and costumes From: MaggiRos@aol.com Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 02:50:31 -0400 (EDT) - -Poster: MaggiRos@aol.com In a message dated 97-09-25 07:49:16 EDT, laurab@dynamite.com.au writes: > Strangely enough, he hung up > everything afterwards. Our lesson? Never EVER p*ss off the stitcher/costumer, who is the only person who knows where the one thread is which, if pulled correctly, makes the whole outfit slide right off your body in the middle of Act 3. ;-) MaggiRos ~world's oldest chorister~ ------------------------------ excmairi@aol.com[28,353]CSuX:actors and costumes Subject: Re: H-COST: Actors and costumes From: EXCMairi@aol.com Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 08:36:43 -0400 (EDT) - -Poster: EXCMairi@aol.com n a message dated 97-09-26 03:12:38 EDT, you write: << Our lesson? Never EVER p*ss off the stitcher/costumer, who is the only person who knows where the one thread is which, if pulled correctly, makes the whole outfit slide right off your body in the middle of Act 3. ;-) MaggiRos ~world's oldest chorister~ >> There's a famous story (from the other side of the coin!) about opera singer Beverly Sills, who has a reputation for being a very nice, courteous and polite lady. She was looking over costume sketches for her LaScala debut and asked (politely) that the color of one dress be changed. While in rehearsals, she was not being treated very well by the crew members at the opera house. When they brought her the dress in question for the dress rehearsal, she walked out onto the stage, calmly explained her problem with the dress (still in the objectionable color) and then took out a pair of scissors and cut it to pieces. Oddly enough, the crew then began to treat her better! Having worked in an Italian opera house (Spoleto Festival), I can believe it. Linda Blowney ------------------------------ guinevere white lee [16,354]CSuX:mfa costume technology Subject: H-COST: MFA Costume Technology From: Guinevere White Lee Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 07:12:26 -0700 - -Poster: Guinevere White Lee I currently have a graduating senior who is interrested in pursuing an MFA in Costume Technology as opposed to Costume Design. I recieved my MFA in Costume Technology from Ohio University. This is a relatively new field for post graduate study with fewer MFA programs than in Design. My question is, aside from Ohio University what other Universities offer this MFA? Thanks in advance for the help. Guinevere W. Lee Costume Production Supervisor University of New Mexico Theatre and Dance Department ------------------------------ penny e. ladnier [46,355]CSuX:mfa costume technology Subject: Re: H-COST: MFA Costume Technology From: "Penny E. Ladnier" Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 10:27:01 -0400 (EDT) - -Poster: "Penny E. Ladnier" At 07:12 AM 9/26/97 -0700, you wrote: >-Poster: Guinevere White Lee > >I currently have a graduating senior who is interrested in pursuing an >MFA in Costume Technology as opposed to Costume Design. I recieved my >MFA in Costume Technology from Ohio University. This is a relatively >new field for post graduate study with fewer MFA programs than in >Design. My question is, aside from Ohio University what other >Universities offer this MFA? Thanks in advance for the help. If they looks in "The Peterson's Guide to Graduate Programs in Humanities, Arts, and Social Studies" the student will find a list of the programs offered. It should be in the university library. The following are some I found (I only copied three pages of the book). I will be at VCU next week and can check in the book if you want more: University of North Carolina-Chapel Hill (email: jadamson@email.unc.edu) North Carolina School of the Arts (email Carol Palm: palmc@ncsavx.ncarts.edu) I also think Lousiana State University and DePaul have the programs. For those of you curious about the difference between Costume Design and Technology... Design is creating the costume from the drawing to construction. Technology is the construction and layout of the costume. Later...Penny Penny E. Dunlap Ladnier, s0peladn@erols.com Historic Costume Research Web Page http://www.geocities.com/FashionAvenue/1899 member: Costume Society of America American Fashion Council Virginia Commonwealth University Alumni (finally!) ------------------------------ penny e. ladnier [81,356]CSuX:haven t heard from Subject: H-COST: Haven't heard from From: "Penny E. Ladnier" Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 11:00:35 -0400 (EDT) - -Poster: "Penny E. Ladnier" The following pertains to the first two posts about snail mail address that I need for the list booklet. I have not heard from the following people yet, with their addresses. If you gave me information to be published in the booklet and have not seen your name in one of my posts, you are numbers 101-200. I will be asking for your snail mail addresses next week. I am trying to weed out the first 100. Be patient! For people new to the list and want a copy of the booklet. I am going to have a FEW extra copies made. They will be available on a first come basis. BUT DO NOT EMAIL ME NOW ABOUT THIS! I will put a call out on the list for this occurs. *********If your name is on this list email me NOW!************* ID Name 4-Graves, B. Jolene 6-Greenwood, Kij 7-Neal, Mazelle 11-Davis, Sandra L. 13-Dolezal, Katrina 20-Louis-Grieb, Shanda 22-Glickman, Bonnie 24-Thomas, S. 32-Hicks, Melissa 36-Middleton, James 37-Baker, Lezlie 38-Lichtenstein, Joe 40-Hargus, Kat 41-Berry, Robin L. 44-Lazear, Angela F. 45-Norton, Sally 46-Hoffman, Hollie 47-Goldsby, Thea 50-White, Laura 52-Walker, Diane 53-Taylor, Dianne 54-Middleton, Gail E. 55-Markham, Jennifer 56-Hill, Brian 58-Tegarden, Rici 63-Birner, William (Bill) B. 68-Moody, Erin H. 70-Fiore, Karilynn 76-Cook, Amber 77-Huff, Carol 79-Nunn-Weinberg, Danielle 80-Russell, Kat 81-Hunter, Gray 84-Whisler, Katharine 85-Dearborn, Loren 86-Stengel, Nancy 88-Hedgecock, Jeffrey 89-Day, Sherry 91-Cannon, Nora 93-Stephens, Lorina 96-Noe, Dianne 97-Peck, Marlo W. 98-Ostwald, Tricia 99-Davis, Cynthia C. 100-Winkler, Barbara Maren Later...Penny Penny E. Dunlap Ladnier, s0peladn@erols.com Historic Costume Research Web Page http://www.geocities.com/FashionAvenue/1899 member: Costume Society of America American Fashion Council Virginia Commonwealth University Alumni (finally!) ------------------------------ betsy r. delaney [36,357]CSuX:italian renaissance underclothing Subject: Re: H-COST: Italian Renaissance underclothing From: "Betsy R. Delaney" Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 11:22:00 -0400 (EDT) - -Poster: "Betsy R. Delaney" Dear Darca: The rectangle line is a good choice for your chemise, but you will need to add gussets under your arms, or you will be very uncomfortable in the sleeves once you're laced into the gown. Also, if you want extra fabric to puff out between the sleeve sections, you'll want to make the chemise sleeves somewhat longer than your own arms. I made mine a full hand and a half longer than my wrist, and pull the excess through the sleeve section spaces. If you need gusset instructions, please let me know. - -betsy Araminta (Goddess of Phonelists) AKA Betsy (Marks) Delaney - Chair & Webmistress, CCXV http://www.access.digex.net/~betsy/CCXV On Thu, 25 Sep 1997, D Tkach wrote: > 1. Is there anything special about the chemise for such a gown? I was > going to work with a basic long rectangular piece of fabric for the body, > with two rectangles of fabric for full sleeves gathered at the armscye and > at the wrist. > > --Darca > Victoria, British Columbia > tkach@uvic.ca ------------------------------ roxann barber [56,358]CSuX:duplicate mail messages and netscape Subject: H-COST: Duplicate mail messages and Netscape From: Roxann Barber Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 08:52:55 -0700 - -Poster: Roxann Barber I just recieved this notice from my Internet service. It appears to be a common problem. May help some of us who have experienced it. Roxy =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D TECH CORNER - Netscape Email Woes Have you ever had a problem in Netscape Mail where you seem to be = getting the same messages over and over, or the same messages = actually seem to be multiplying? We know many of you have this problem because of the volume of calls and letters at = help@netlink.net. = Why does this happen? It has to do with a little setting under = the mail and news preferences for Netscape that tells the email = client how often to check for mail on the server. If the program = checks the server for mail while you are in the process of = downloading it, you will be the victim of this annoying little = bug. Fortunately, it=92s easy to fix. In Netscape 3.0 and below, all you have to do is go to Options, = then Mail and News Preferences. Under the Servers tab, you will = see the setting that lets you set how often it checks the server = for mail. Set this on something like 30-60 minutes and you will = avoid our most popular glitch. Under Netscape Communicator, go = to Edit, then Preferences, click the plus next to Mail and Groups = and then on the Mail Server, click on the button for More Options. There you will find where you can increase the time between server checks. Try this easy fix, and you will be pleased with the = outcome. ------------------------------ kelly rinne [34,359]CSuX:((actors and costumes)) Subject: [Fwd: Re: [Fwd: Re: H-COST: Actors and costumes]] From: KELLY RINNE Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 11:47:37 -0500 - -Poster: KELLY RINNE This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - --------------11350DA7C0A Hi all! I am also on the opera newsgroup, and after reading the Sills' story sent it on for verification. Here are some more details... It's a good read. Kel tom savage wrote: > > Hi Kel, > > The Sills story is true! The opera was Rossini's l'Assedio di Corinto (a > bastardized italian version of Le Siege de Corinth) with Scotto and Horne > (1969); Scotto got pregnant and Sills took over to much acclaim. The > original costume was in a color suitable for Scotto, but it clashed with > Sills' red hair. She asked repeatedly that it be redone and was reassured > that it would be ready by the dress rehearsal; it wasn't, and Sills took out > scissors and cut it in two...they were then forced to make it in HER color. > She describes it at length in her first book BUBBLES. The performance > (available on CD) is AMAZING!!! It was called the Siege of the Americans as > it included conductor Thomas Schippers. the tenor was Franco Bonisolli > > Happy listening! > tom > TristanNY@aol.com > > > - --------------11350DA7C0A tom savage [25,360]CSuX:(actors and costumes) Subject: Re: [Fwd: Re: H-COST: Actors and costumes] From: tom savage Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 11:54:31 -0400 Hi Kel, The Sills story is true! The opera was Rossini's l'Assedio di Corinto (a bastardized italian version of Le Siege de Corinth) with Scotto and Horne (1969); Scotto got pregnant and Sills took over to much acclaim. The original costume was in a color suitable for Scotto, but it clashed with Sills' red hair. She asked repeatedly that it be redone and was reassured that it would be ready by the dress rehearsal; it wasn't, and Sills took out scissors and cut it in two...they were then forced to make it in HER color. She describes it at length in her first book BUBBLES. The performance (available on CD) is AMAZING!!! It was called the Siege of the Americans as it included conductor Thomas Schippers. the tenor was Franco Bonisolli Happy listening! tom TristanNY@aol.com > - --------------11350DA7C0A-- ------------------------------ eric praetzel [21,361]CSuX:italian renaissance underclothing Subject: Re: H-COST: Italian Renaissance underclothing From: Eric Praetzel Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 12:58:42 -0400 (EDT) - -Poster: Eric Praetzel > -Poster: "Betsy R. Delaney" > The rectangle line is a good choice for your chemise, but you will need to > add gussets under your arms, or you will be very uncomfortable in the > sleeves once you're laced into the gown. Also, if you want extra fabric > to puff out between the sleeve sections, you'll want to make the chemise > sleeves somewhat longer than your own arms. I used to do that but am now dead set against it. It left me with shirts that I could not wear with any other outfit. In the end I came to the conclusion that full sleves are the way to give yourself material to puff out. Anyone else? - Eric http://sca.uwaterloo.ca ------------------------------ sharron fina [26,362]CSuX:undersleeves Subject: H-COST: undersleeves From: Sharron Fina Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 14:27:07 -0400 (EDT) - -Poster: Sharron Fina Hmmmm, I tend to do both, longer and wider for anything that I wish to "fluff out". My MINIMUM guesstimations are double the arm circumference and 1.5 times the underarm length. With a small band (~1/2 inch) on the wrist the sleeve will not fall over the hand. I make separate shirts/chemises for when no slashed oversleeve is to be used. Sharron Fina sfina@retina.anatomy.upenn.edu > > -Poster: "Betsy R. Delaney" > Also, if you want extra fabric > > to puff out between the sleeve sections, you'll want to make the chemise > > sleeves somewhat longer than your own arms. > -Poster: Eric Praetzel > In the end I came to the conclusion that full sleves are the way to > give yourself material to puff out. > ------------------------------ kerri canepa [49,363]CSuX:italian renaissance underclothing Subject: Re: H-COST: Italian Renaissance underclothing From: Kerri Canepa Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 10:53:15 -0800 (ADT) - -Poster: Kerri Canepa There's not a lot of hard evidence about boned corsets worn with late 15th c Italian clothing. The look, from the art I've perused, seems to indicate a snug, rounded bodice that was at or above the natural waistline (I'm a firm believer in regional fashion in Italy; different places had different styles). Boning or stiffening of some sort would have been along the bodice closure (mostly at center back but a few had center front) and possibly under the arms. The entire bodice should be interlined with canvas. I think the trick to getting the rounded look depends heavily on the fitting of the bodice; it should be as snug as a corset otherwise it won't keep the breasts in one place and it would wrinkle in odd places. As to cartridge pleating the skirt, I haven't seen artistic evidence for that style pleating before the mid 16th c. I've seen box pleats, inverted pleats and knife pleats, all of which are easier and faster to do. The silhouette was rather flat down the front with a graceful train (for the upper classes) down the back. There wasn't much emphasis placed on the hips since the pleating was flat. By the end of the 1st quarter of the 16th c, skirts start to stick out from the waist but by the then the whole look had changed. As an aside, if you've looked at some Italian art and noticed the v shaped insert in the bodice, it isn't an insert. What you're seeing is an undergown. The attached sleeves might be the same fabric as the undergown or could be yet a third fabric. This leads into a whole new discussion of whether the undergown was the stiffened part or were both layers stiffened. There's also a whole other layer that was worn on top of the gown which was worn when outside the home. This layer, the giornea (a tabardlike, open down the sides, sleeveless overgown) or the cioppa (a closed at the sides but could be sleeveless or have hanging sleeves overgown) had a longer hem at the back which acted as a train. Then there's the gazillion ways to make the sleeves...! The book you should refer to is _Renaissance dress in Italy; 1400-1500_ by Jacqueline Herald. If your library doesn't have it, it should be findable through ILL. Good luck! Kerri ------------------------------ End of h-costume-digest V1 #71 ****************************** h-costume-digest-approval@world.std.com (h-costume-digest)[39,364]CSuX:h-costume-digest v1 #72 Subject: h-costume-digest V1 #72 From: h-costume-digest-approval@world.std.com (h-costume-digest) Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 14:28:34 -0400 (EDT) h-costume-digest Monday, September 29 1997 Volume 01 : Number 072 In this issue: Re: H-COST: MFA Costume Technology Re: H-COST: Exhibit catalog? Re: H-COST: Italian Renaissance underclothing Re: H-COST: Duplicate mail messages and Netscape Re: H-COST: Duplicate mail messages and Netscape Re: H-COST: Italian Renaissance underclothing Re: H-COST: Italian Renaissance underclothing Re: H-COST: Italian Renaissance underclothing Re: H-COST: Italian Renaissance underclothing H-COST: Medieval Printed Linen Re: H-COST: Medieval Printed Linen H-COST: duffel Re: H-COST: duffel Re: H-COST: Medieval Printed Linen Re: H-COST: duffel Re: H-COST: MFA Costume Technology H-COST: Speaking of exhibit catalogs Re: H-COST: Medieval Printed Linen Re: H-COST: Speaking of exhibit catalogs Re: H-COST: Victorian circus costumes H-COST: Princess Di's gown H-COST: Snail mail, Part 3 (ALL READ) Re: H-COST: Speaking of exhibit catalogs H-COST: Princess Di's gown H-COST: Medieval Printed linen Re: H-COST: Medieval Printed Linen H-COST: _The Edwardian Modiste_ Re: H-COST: _The Edwardian Modiste_ Re: H-COST: duffel Re: H-COST: Medieval Printed Linen ---------------------------------------------------------------------- kathy hoover [12,365]CSuX:mfa costume technology Subject: Re: H-COST: MFA Costume Technology From: KATHY HOOVER Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 15:02:11 -0400 - -Poster: KATHY HOOVER At 07:12 AM 9/26/97 -0700, Guinevere White Lee wrote: > My question is, aside from Ohio University what other >Universities offer this MFA? I believe Carnegie-Mellon does, as well. Kathy Hoover ------------------------------ mhamilto@pop.service.ohio-state.edu (marsha hamilton)[16,366]CSuX:exhibit catalog? Subject: Re: H-COST: Exhibit catalog? From: mhamilto@pop.service.ohio-state.edu (Marsha Hamilton) Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 15:37:06 -0400 (EDT) - -Poster: mhamilto@pop.service.ohio-state.edu (Marsha Hamilton) >-Poster: "Kendra Van Cleave/NY" >I've been to....the Museum of the City of New York for their >exhibit "New York Gets Married" which had some wonderful bridal >gowns...... Does anyone know if there is an exhibit catalog for the "New York Gets Married" exhibit? If so, please post the title, isbn, etc. Thanks. Marsha (just can't get enough of those glossy costume pictures) ------------------------------ swordmom@aol.com[17,367]CSuX:italian renaissance underclothing Subject: Re: H-COST: Italian Renaissance underclothing From: Swordmom@aol.com Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 19:21:57 -0400 (EDT) - -Poster: Swordmom@aol.com I have a question on this same topic: I just began sewing Italian Renaissance garb for myself and was wondering what is the correct shape for the neckline? As for the having enough fabric under the arms, I just make my chemises extra wide (add 12" on each side), as well as making the sleeves about double the width they need to be. I then just pleat the shoulder so that the armseye (sp?) fits where it should. I don't know if this way of doing it is correct or not, but it seems to work for me. Dawn ------------------------------ shepgibb@mcn.org (r.l. shep)[50,368]CSuX:duplicate mail messages and netscape Subject: Re: H-COST: Duplicate mail messages and Netscape From: shepgibb@mcn.org (R.L. Shep) Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 17:07:18 +0100 - -Poster: shepgibb@mcn.org (R.L. Shep) At 8:52 AM 9/26/97, Roxann Barber wrote: >-Poster: Roxann Barber > >I just recieved this notice from my Internet service. It appears to be a >common problem. May help some of us who have experienced it. > >Roxy > >=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > >TECH CORNER - Netscape Email Woes > >Have you ever had a problem in Netscape Mail where you seem to be >getting the same messages over and over, or the same messages >actually seem to be multiplying? We know many of you have this >problem because of the volume of calls and letters at >help@netlink.net. > >Why does this happen? It has to do with a little setting under >the mail and news preferences for Netscape that tells the email >client how often to check for mail on the server. If the program >checks the server for mail while you are in the process of >downloading it, you will be the victim of this annoying little >bug. Fortunately, it=92s easy to fix. > >In Netscape 3.0 and below, all you have to do is go to Options, >then Mail and News Preferences. Under the Servers tab, you will >see the setting that lets you set how often it checks the server >for mail. Set this on something like 30-60 minutes and you will >avoid our most popular glitch. Under Netscape Communicator, go >to Edit, then Preferences, click the plus next to Mail and Groups >and then on the Mail Server, click on the button for More Options. >There you will find where you can increase the time between server >checks. Try this easy fix, and you will be pleased with the >outcome. More pleased with the outcome am I who have just returned to Eudora for my mail. Netscape is a mess - according to me and half the people I talk to. I only use Netscape for Bookmarks and surfing. ~!~ R.L. Shep :-) :-) :-) ------------------------------ roxann barber [18,369]CSuX:duplicate mail messages and netscape Subject: Re: H-COST: Duplicate mail messages and Netscape From: Roxann Barber Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 19:08:16 -0700 - -Poster: Roxann Barber R.L. Shep wrote: > More pleased with the outcome am I who have just returned to Eudora for my > mail. Netscape is a mess - according to me and half the people I talk to. > I only use Netscape for Bookmarks and surfing. > > ~!~ R.L. Shep :-) :-) :-) Have heard this before, I may have to try it out! Roxy ------------------------------ don & carolyn richardson [37,370]CSuX:italian renaissance underclothing Subject: Re: H-COST: Italian Renaissance underclothing From: Don & Carolyn Richardson Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 19:40:05 -0700 - -Poster: Don & Carolyn Richardson Eric Praetzel wrote: > > -Poster: Eric Praetzel > > > > -Poster: "Betsy R. Delaney" > > The rectangle line is a good choice for your chemise, but you will need to > > add gussets under your arms, or you will be very uncomfortable in the > > sleeves once you're laced into the gown. Also, if you want extra fabric > > to puff out bet