From ???@??? Mon Mar 01 10:59:22 1999 Received: from mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE (mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE [130.149.4.16]) by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA11844 for ; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 08:11:57 +0100 (MET) Received: from mail.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.15]) by mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10HMrt-0002xm-00; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 08:11:57 +0100 Received: from coal.bg.tu-berlin.de by mail.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Mon, 1 Mar 1999 08:11:47 +0100 Received: from tubkom.prz.tu-berlin.de by mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Mon, 1 Mar 1999 08:11:40 +0100 Received: from mail.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE (mail.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE [130.149.4.15]) by tubkom.prz.tu-berlin.de (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA12895 for ; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 08:10:28 +0100 (MEZ) Received: from server.indra.com by mail.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Mon, 1 Mar 1999 08:11:28 +0100 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.8.5/) with ESMTP id AAA04273; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 00:22:03 -0700 (MST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id AAA08891 for h-costume-digest-outgoing; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 00:09:43 -0700 (MST) Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 00:09:43 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199903010709.AAA08891@indra.com> From: owner-h-costume-digest@indra.com To: h-costume-digest@indra.com Subject: h-costume-digest V4 #177 Reply-To: h-costume-digest@indra.com Errors-To: owner-h-costume-digest@indra.com Precedence: bulk h-costume-digest Monday, 1 March 1999 Volume 04 : Number 177 In this issue: H-COST: corsets/19c Re: H-COST: Dress form and now foot forms? Re: H-COST: 1840's round dresses Re: H-COST: H-COST - loose gowns+kirtles Re: H-COST: 1840's round dresses H-COST: OT - What to see/do in Myrtle Beach Re: H-COST: Dress form and now foot forms? Re: H-COST: OT:dressform H-COST: oops! Re: H-COST: Figuring out elizabethan waistbands Re: H-COST: Figuring out elizabethan waistbands Re: H-COST: Swedish FO- described H-COST: Dress forms Re: H-COST: patch Re: H-COST: Fabric Club Re: H-COST: Tartan in VA H-COST: H-C: King Alfonso's Book of Chess ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: pulliam@acadia.net (Deborah Pulliam) Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 16:59:02 -0500 Subject: H-COST: corsets/19c - -Poster: pulliam@acadia.net (Deborah Pulliam) <> They certainly were still being worn, even on the frontier, 20 years later: in the upper mid west, Laura Ingalls Wilder subtly makes it clear that her mother always wore a corset, and that she did as well, by the time she was about 15. There are references in Little House in the Big Woods, as well as the later books, when Laura is trying to learn to be a young lady (and complaining about having to wear corsets. Deborah _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: ArcadiaCB@aol.com Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 17:38:14 EST Subject: Re: H-COST: Dress form and now foot forms? - -Poster: ArcadiaCB@aol.com Do you have any places that sell old store fixtures, buy up the display fixtures and forms when a store is going out of business? There's one near me that almost always has such forms. Or try looking in the Yellow pages under "Display" for a company that sells new fixtures and display forms. You might even ask a local store where they buy their forms from. _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Margo Anderson Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 14:37:00 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: H-COST: 1840's round dresses - -Poster: Margo Anderson MissMela wrote: I have been pondering this question for a while now, concerning >"waistcoats' and/or vests. I have come to a conclusion, at least for now, >that a sleeveless garment, similar to our modern day undershirt was worn from >1840 through 1910 under or instead of a corset for warmth and for it's binding >of the breasts in such away as to hold. So this may have been the period equivalent of a sports bra, i.e. more comfortable to wear when active, but not giving as attractive or fashionable a look? It certainly makes sense. I agree with Joan that Rickman is probably innacurate on this point, due to an understandable lack of personal experience. Well, if I were asked to write about athletic supporters, I might just miss some detail, too! Margo _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Wanda Pease" Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 14:40:24 -0800 Subject: Re: H-COST: H-COST - loose gowns+kirtles - -Poster: "Wanda Pease" Actually, my first (and so far only) attempt made me look a lot like the Friendship 7 space capsule! (Ok, so I'm showing my age... or... NO! I must have seen it at the Smithsonian Air and Space Museum.. Yeah! That's it!) Regina - -----Original Message----- From: Margo Anderson To: h-costume@indra.com Date: Sunday, February 28, 1999 9:31 AM Subject: Re: H-COST: H-COST - loose gowns+kirtles > >-Poster: Margo Anderson > >At 09:29 AM 2/27/99 -0600, you wrote: >> >>-Poster: seamstrix@juno.com >> >>They seem to have been perfectly acceptable as outdorr wear, many women >>were painted wearing them and there are many listed in Queen Elizabeth's >>Wardrobe. I made one for a large sized lady at Bristol RenFaire last >>summer and it worked out very well for her, it was comfortable and was >>very flattering as it accentuated her height not her width. Just remember >>that you need to wear all the regular undergarments, > >But keep the hoops fairly small, otherwise you'll resemble the remark of a >friend of mine: "You mean that dress that looks like you're wearing a >teepee with your head sticking out the top?" > >I've never been able to bring myself to wear one since... > >Margo > > _________________________________________________________________ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME > > _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: LuAnnMason@aol.com Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 20:15:39 EST Subject: Re: H-COST: 1840's round dresses - -Poster: LuAnnMason@aol.com In a message dated 2/28/99 3:58:02 PM EST, joanj@quiknet.com writes: << IMO, while Rickman did put together a generally useful and good costume guide for outer garments, he doesn't really understand much about women's stays and corsets (this is understandable). Some support garments would be needed by many, though not all, women for comfort as well as decency (as defined in the USA at the time). Comfortable stays which give support to the bust and leave one able to do one's necessary work are what I would recommend. I wear them whenever I am at the Fort in costume. >> Thank you Joan! Although I was not the OP on this topic, I also purchased the Sutter's Fort costume guide last spring. While I felt the overall guide was excellent (or whatever the word above "excellent" might be! :-) ), the passage on "no corsets" really struck a wrong chord with me. LuAnn _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Danielle Nunn Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 22:19:07 -0500 Subject: H-COST: OT - What to see/do in Myrtle Beach - -Poster: Danielle Nunn Greetings all, Can anyone recommend places to go, things to see, and fabric stores, etc... in Myrtle Beach? I'm going there in two weeks and have the days to myself. Please email me privately. Thanks. Cheers, Danielle dnunn@interlog.com _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Kathryn L. Herb" Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 22:16:29 EST Subject: Re: H-COST: Dress form and now foot forms? - -Poster: "Kathryn L. Herb" Well, another boot to the head for me! Thanks! We don't have stores that sell old fixtures, but checking with local shoe stores, etc. never even occurred to me! Kay kayherb@juno.com On Sun, 28 Feb 1999 17:38:14 EST ArcadiaCB@aol.com writes: > >-Poster: ArcadiaCB@aol.com > >Do you have any places that sell old store fixtures, buy up the >display >fixtures and forms when a store is going out of business? There's one >near me >that almost always has such forms. Or try looking in the Yellow pages >under >"Display" for a company that sells new fixtures and display forms. You >might >even ask a local store where they buy their forms from. > _________________________________________________________________ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME > ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: trekona@erols.com Date: Mon, 01 Mar 99 03:46:44 GMT Subject: Re: H-COST: OT:dressform - -Poster: trekona@erols.com > -Poster: "Andrea Gideon" > > Does anyone know where I can buy a "Uniquely You" dressform? They don't > seem to be availible in fabric stores. > Andrea My mother ordered me a tailor's ham last Christmas from Atlanta Thread & Cutlery (yes, I got a Christmas ham!!) who very nicely supplied me with two copies of their mail order catalog. They sell Uniquely You forms for $135.99, Twin Fit forms for $135-145 (hey, it goes up to *my* size which none of the others do!), My Double forms for $135, and the Athena form for $113. Oh, they also carry a Mr Ardis male form for the usual $135 and a Uniquely you pants form. I don't really know if these are good prices, they look it to me (or else I'm getting a very warped idea of money these days), but when I see the prices of many of their other supplies (like T-pins and fiber fill), I'm amazed at the low cost. If anyone is interested in their catalog, call 1-800-847-1001. -Judy Mitchell My mother said the woman on the phone was very nice and they had a good ol' chat, so they don't seem to terribly rushed or harried. They even hand wrote my mother's name in the return address spot, so that I wouldn't open it before Christmas. Now *that's* service! _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: trekona@erols.com Date: Mon, 01 Mar 99 03:48:12 GMT Subject: H-COST: oops! - -Poster: trekona@erols.com Drat: that should have read Atlanta Thread & Supply Comany ^^^^^^ not 'Cutlery.' I think I'd best go to bed. -Judy Mitchell _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Danielle Nunn Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 22:30:15 -0500 Subject: Re: H-COST: Figuring out elizabethan waistbands - -Poster: Danielle Nunn Greetings, >> Which reminds me, has anyone ever >> noticed a picture of an ENGLISH lady wearing those large triangular Spanish >> sleeves? > >Ignoring the whole rest of a very sensible letter... Thank you. >Yes. Lettice Knollys, Countess of Leicester, in that very flashy golden gown >with double sleeves? Those are Spanish round sleeves, I am quite sure. Actually, I'm not talking about Spanish round sleeves, I've seen plenty of them it's the big triangular ones like you see on the portrait of "The Infanta Isabella Clara Eugenia" by F. Del Llano, 1584. It's on pg. 218 of Boucher's "20,000 years of Fashion". She's wearing a stunning, white doublet gown with a gold brocaded pattern and has her hand on the head of her dwarf who is holding two monkeys. Anyone seen these on an English woman? Cheers, Danielle _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: kat@grendal.rain.com Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 19:51:12 +0000 Subject: Re: H-COST: Figuring out elizabethan waistbands - -Poster: kat@grendal.rain.com > Actually, I'm not talking about Spanish round sleeves, I've seen plenty of > them it's the big triangular ones like you see on the portrait of "The > Infanta Isabella Clara Eugenia" by F. Del Llano, 1584. It's on pg. 218 of > Boucher's "20,000 years of Fashion". She's wearing a stunning, white > doublet gown with a gold brocaded pattern and has her hand on the head of > her dwarf who is holding two monkeys. > > Anyone seen these on an English woman? Ah, those wonderful Saya sleeves. Alcega has a pattern for them (although it's easy to put them in the armhole wrong, I've seen.) Unfortunately, I'm still looking for an example on someone English. Sigh. I like them too. Kat Kat(June Russell) kat@grendal.rain.com Heu! Tintinnuntius meus Sonat! _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Appin1@aol.com Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 00:17:11 EST Subject: Re: H-COST: Swedish FO- described - -Poster: Appin1@aol.com For those following the story of Judy's Swedish outfit, I was one of the judges for historical costuming at CostumeCon and had the pleasure of seeing this FO up close and from the skin out, as well as reading the documentation Judy produced for it. Outstanding. As she stated, everything was sewn by hand. All parts of the garments were extensively researched from original Swedish sources with a lot of interface between Judy and several experts in Sweden. As could be expected, Judy won awards in documentation and construction in her class (journeyman -- the classes are novice, journeyman and master), as well as judges' choice. Two years ago, at CostumeCon she also won several awards in her class (novice) for a wonderful (and wonderfully researched) Viking outfit. I was also a judge for that competition. Competition at these costumers conventions is very tough. Participants sometimes are professionals, working in theater or reenactment. Judging is comprehensive. We read documentation carefully and examine garments thoroughly. We ask lots of questions. We look at the presentation and fit of the clothes. Bravo Judy! Keep up the good work. Kathleen Norvell _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: ArcadiaCB@aol.com Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 00:23:51 EST Subject: H-COST: Dress forms - -Poster: ArcadiaCB@aol.com I can't say about the other dress forms, but the prices quoted for the "Uniquely You" form sounds good. I paid $125 for mine in 1991 so it hasn't inflated that much since then. _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Appin1@aol.com Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 00:25:31 EST Subject: Re: H-COST: patch - -Poster: Appin1@aol.com I've made & used velvet patches, just cut from regular velvet. They can fray a bit, but you can use Fray-Chek on them (or coat with clear nail polish on the back). I stuck it on my cheek with a little Elmer's glue (it washes off with warm water). You can also use spirit gum or two-sided tape. I also have commercially-made patches with some sort of stickum on the back. They are in shapes like stars and crescent moons. Kathleen Norvell _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "karrissa david" Date: Mon, 01 Mar 1999 00:26:51 EST Subject: Re: H-COST: Fabric Club - -Poster: "karrissa david" >I have discovered after crushing disappoint to *never* depend on mail >order if I have a deadline. I think, by law, they have 6-8 weeks to >deliver something. Actually, the law states that a distributor has 2 weeks to mail a purchase out. If it is to be mailed later than two weeks, then the sender must notify the purchaser of when the item will be sent out. Just my two cents. Karrissa ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Jill & Ralph" Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 21:41:00 -0800 Subject: Re: H-COST: Tartan in VA - -Poster: "Jill & Ralph" You Know When You've Costuming Too Long... When the subject is "Tartan in VA" and you think "Oh! a new exhibit at the Victoria and Albert" Jill _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Melanie Wilson Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 02:07:59 -0500 Subject: H-COST: H-C: King Alfonso's Book of Chess - -Poster: Melanie Wilson The correct title is "Libro de los Juegos de Ajedrez, Dados y Tablas" = there is a facsimile of the book of chess, published in Spain, it is on the 2nd hand market and reputedly going for a minimum of 1000 English pounds, but the only copies I've traced are more like 2500 English pounds= ------------------------------ End of h-costume-digest V4 #177 ******************************* _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME-DIGEST From ???@??? Tue Mar 02 10:34:40 1999 Received: from mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE (mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE [130.149.4.16]) by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA19064 for ; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 19:00:14 +0100 (MET) Received: from mail.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.15]) by mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10HWzF-0004c5-00; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 19:00:13 +0100 Received: from coal.bg.tu-berlin.de by mail.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Mon, 1 Mar 1999 19:00:07 +0100 Received: from mail.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.15]) by mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10HWz5-0004bt-00; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 19:00:03 +0100 Received: from tubkom.prz.tu-berlin.de by mail.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Mon, 1 Mar 1999 19:00:00 +0100 Received: from mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE (mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE [130.149.4.16]) by tubkom.prz.tu-berlin.de (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA18178 for ; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 18:58:47 +0100 (MEZ) Received: from mail.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.15]) by mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10HWyy-0004br-01; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 18:59:56 +0100 Received: from server.indra.com by mail.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Mon, 1 Mar 1999 18:58:26 +0100 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.8.5/) with ESMTP id LAA05738; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 11:09:15 -0700 (MST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id KAA08519 for h-costume-digest-outgoing; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 10:56:27 -0700 (MST) Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 10:56:27 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199903011756.KAA08519@indra.com> From: owner-h-costume-digest@indra.com To: h-costume-digest@indra.com Subject: h-costume-digest V4 #178 Reply-To: h-costume-digest@indra.com Errors-To: owner-h-costume-digest@indra.com Precedence: bulk h-costume-digest Monday, 1 March 1999 Volume 04 : Number 178 In this issue: Re: H-COST: H-C: King Alfonso's Book of Chess H-COST: First World War Re: H-COST: Figuring out elizabethan waistbands Re: H-COST: foot forms RE: H-COST: foot forms H-COST: Thread Sizing H-COST: Proud of Merouda H-COST: Re:Foams...reg. vs hard?? Hunh? Re: H-COST: Proud of Merouda H-COST: Where To Purchase Corset Book? H-COST: uniquely you Re: H-COST: Where To Purchase Corset Book? Re: H-COST: Dry Cleaners in SF area? Re: H-COST: Where To Purchase Corset Book? Re: H-COST: Where To Purchase Corset Book? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Robin Netherton Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 08:01:34 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: H-COST: H-C: King Alfonso's Book of Chess - -Poster: Robin Netherton On Mon, 1 Mar 1999, Melanie Wilson wrote: > there is a facsimile of the book of chess, published in Spain, it is on > the 2nd hand market and reputedly going for a minimum of 1000 English > pounds, but the only copies I've traced are more like 2500 English pounds Someone else mentioned the Cantigas. A couple of weeks ago I saw a large facsimile of this in a university library. B/W plates, but there are 212 of them, showing many people. "Las Cantigas: estudio arqueologico de sus miniaturas" by Jose Guerrero Lovillo (Madrid 1949). Not to be confused with many other titles under "Cantigas" that are modern books about the music in this manuscript. - --Robin _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Chandler, Sally" Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 14:10:59 -0000 Subject: H-COST: First World War - -Poster: "Chandler, Sally" Can anyone direct me to pictures of women's utility clothing or factory workers clothing from the First World War on the Web? Thanks, Sally Ann _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: aleed Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 09:49:14 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: H-COST: Figuring out elizabethan waistbands - -Poster: aleed I know that Queen Elizabeth had "spanish grete sleeves" listed in her wardrobe accounts, but I, too have never seen them on a portrait of an Englishwoman. > > Actually, I'm not talking about Spanish round sleeves, I've seen plenty of > them it's the big triangular ones like you see on the portrait of "The > Infanta Isabella Clara Eugenia" by F. Del Llano, 1584. It's on pg. 218 of > Boucher's "20,000 years of Fashion". She's wearing a stunning, white > doublet gown with a gold brocaded pattern and has her hand on the head of > her dwarf who is holding two monkeys. > > Anyone seen these on an English woman? _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Marie Schulte Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 08:55:55 -0600 (CST) Subject: Re: H-COST: foot forms - -Poster: Marie Schulte > -Poster: "Kathryn L. Herb" > > And to expand on your inquiry, does anyone know where I can get foot > forms with the lower leg attached? I'm doing custom woolen hose (woven Kay- A friend of mine who makes shoes makes individual lasts of a person's feet by doing a version of the duct tape/t-shirt pattern. He uses a sock. After taping it up and cutting it off the person, he tapes it back into a 'foot-lower leg form' and fills it with the aerosol foam insulation. Maybe that will work for you. _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Hulett Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 07:10:16 -0800 Subject: RE: H-COST: foot forms - -Poster: Hulett That is exactly what I did on my whole dress form. It worked great. (I did fill the body cavity with regular foam though, just the legs and arms were hard foam) cheers, jd - -----Original Message----- From: Marie Schulte [SMTP:mschulte@post.its.mcw.edu] Sent: Monday, March 01, 1999 6:56 AM To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: H-COST: foot forms - -Poster: Marie Schulte > -Poster: "Kathryn L. Herb" > > And to expand on your inquiry, does anyone know where I can get foot > forms with the lower leg attached? I'm doing custom woolen hose (woven Kay- A friend of mine who makes shoes makes individual lasts of a person's feet by doing a version of the duct tape/t-shirt pattern. He uses a sock. After taping it up and cutting it off the person, he tapes it back into a 'foot-lower leg form' and fills it with the aerosol foam insulation. Maybe that will work for you. _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "I. Marc Carlson" Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 9:32:58 -0600 Subject: H-COST: Thread Sizing - -Poster: "I. Marc Carlson" I'm had a question for a shoemaking forum I'm on, and after getting a response that doesn't quite answer my question, I thought I'd drop it here also and hope that someone can help. I will be adding (with permission) the other response I received. Please note that unless I am told explicitly not to, I will be cross-posting the more informative responses to the the Crispian Colloquy at (www.bootmaker.com/hcc.htm): - By Marc Carlson on Sunday, February 28, 1999 - 09:39 pm: - I have what may seem like a stupid question, but how do different - shoemakers define their threads. I mean I have heard terms like "#10", - "10 ounce" and "35/2" used to describe various threads. Any - thoughts? - Marc - lib_imc@centum.utulsa.edu - By DR OBUV on Monday, March 1, 1999 - 07:15 am: - MARC--You have indeed touched on a tricky area here, and I hope somebody - might jump in who knows more than what little I can offer. Hand-sewing - thread, plied-up to size for a job, is made from a single strand of "hand - thread". This base thread size, say #10, in 5,7,9, etc. plys, would give - you, for example, a 5x #10, etc. Formerly single strand "hand thread" was - available in more sizes, like #12, etc. Today all I can find is #10, and - this varies in size. We are also forced to use hand-weaver's wet-spun - flax/hemp single-ply yarn, like Webs brand, which comes in it's own - peculiar number sizes, like 20/1,18/1, whatever that means. "Linen" - machine twist runs to another size range ,which stipulates both number - of strands [i.e.,3], and total size [i.e.,18], such as 3/18, 3/25 and - 3/35 being the most common "linen threads" sold today. Most nylon threads - are sold in old "silk sizes" which can run either by letters [A-G], or - numbers. To make matters worse, multi-stranded "linen" sole-stitcher - thread is sold by number of strands, not size, such as 5 "cord", 7 "cord", - etc. These sizes relate to needle and awl sizes in the machines. The - confusion begins when one tries to relate one number-size system to threads - not made in that number-size system. I just got a 225 grm. spool of 3/18 - "linen" machine twist that has a finished size almost the same as a #5 cord - stitcher thread. Some of the early 20th c. texbook give charts that relate - "silk" sizes to the others, but today the product is so inconsistent, it - might be more confusing than helpful. Personally, I am trying to find some order in this chaos - and my test is to figure out what the "linen thread" that Tandy sells is called, and what that's supposed to mean :) Marc _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: kat@grendal.rain.com Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 07:35:50 +0000 Subject: H-COST: Proud of Merouda - -Poster: kat@grendal.rain.com I don't know if Merouda will let everyone else know, but we can be quite proud of her. She won the Twelfth Night An Tir Costumer's Guild costume competition for her experience level! She was up against a large number of people with some stiff competition. Her garment was very well made and well documented (as well as looking very nice on her!) We (the judges for the contest) were quite impressed with her. Kat Kat(June Russell) kat@grendal.rain.com Heu! Tintinnuntius meus Sonat! _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Lady Eleanor Date: Mon, 01 Mar 1999 07:43:11 -0800 Subject: H-COST: Re:Foams...reg. vs hard?? Hunh? - -Poster: Lady Eleanor "Regular foam"..."hard foam"??? Could you supply any brand names here? Thanks, Lady Eleanor Hulett wrote: > > -Poster: Hulett > > That is exactly what I did on my whole dress form. It worked great. (I did > fill the body cavity with regular foam though, just the legs and arms were > hard foam) > cheers, jd > > -----Original Message----- > From: Marie Schulte [SMTP:mschulte@post.its.mcw.edu] > Sent: Monday, March 01, 1999 6:56 AM > To: h-costume@indra.com > Subject: Re: H-COST: foot forms > > -Poster: Marie Schulte > > > -Poster: "Kathryn L. Herb" > > > > And to expand on your inquiry, does anyone know where I can get foot > > forms with the lower leg attached? I'm doing custom woolen hose (woven > > Kay- > > A friend of mine who makes shoes makes individual lasts of a person's feet > by doing a version of the duct tape/t-shirt pattern. He uses a sock. > After taping it up and cutting it off the person, he tapes it back into a > 'foot-lower leg form' and fills it with the aerosol foam insulation. > Maybe that will work for you. > > _________________________________________________________________ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME > > _________________________________________________________________ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: cynthia j ley Date: Mon, 01 Mar 1999 11:48:22 EST Subject: Re: H-COST: Proud of Merouda - -Poster: cynthia j ley I heartily second that! The entry was beautiful, not a detail missed, and her documentation was thorough and well presented. Merouda, any chance you could post your cotehardie on a web site for all to see? Congratulations! :-) Arlys On Mon, 1 Mar 1999 07:35:50 +0000 kat@grendal.rain.com writes: > >-Poster: kat@grendal.rain.com > >I don't know if Merouda will let everyone else know, but we can be >quite proud of her. She won the Twelfth Night An Tir Costumer's Guild >costume competition for her experience level! > >She was up against a large number of people with some stiff >competition. Her garment was very well made and well documented (as >well as looking very nice on her!) We (the judges for the contest) >were quite impressed with her. > > >Kat > >Kat(June Russell) >kat@grendal.rain.com >Heu! Tintinnuntius meus Sonat! > _________________________________________________________________ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME > ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Vickers, Jill" Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 09:01:43 -0800 Subject: H-COST: Where To Purchase Corset Book? - -Poster: "Vickers, Jill" I have just been informed by Amazon.com that they cannot get a copy of The Little Corset Book by Bonnie Holt Ambrose for me. Does anyone know where else I can try to get a copy? On-line or mail order sources are best. While on the subject...can anyone provide me with a review of this book? It looks like it may be helpful, I have not been able to get much information on it. Thanks, - -Jill _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Gaelscot@aol.com Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 09:34:27 EST Subject: H-COST: uniquely you - -Poster: Gaelscot@aol.com My husband bought me my Uniquely You dress form three years ago at Joanne Fabrics. It was on sale for$99. The store doesn't always have dress forms displayed, but you can always order them. So you might check your local store even if they don't have a display. I really like the form, although it is not at all my shape. The company doesn't seem to have changed the shape of the thing since the 1950s, so the breasts are cone shaped and it has no stomach or rear end to speak of (as if it's wearing a girdle!). I spoke to the company several times by phone, not sure if I had the right size -- I was still nursing and I knew that my body shape would change. The people I spoke to were all extremely helpful, and told me that when I was pretty sure my shape was stable, I should call back and they would give me detailed instructions on how to pad it (my behind will NEVER be that flat). I've never called, because I'm still losing some weight and I haven't needed to make any really form-fitting garments. But I'll tell you, it's great to have a dress form! It's exactly my height and approximately my shape, and it has made a huge difference in my sewing. Mostly because I can be so much more confident about whether what I'm doing will fit. So I recommend the company and the product. Gail Finke _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: KaosWarior@vcnet.com Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 09:33:06 -0800 Subject: Re: H-COST: Where To Purchase Corset Book? - -Poster: KaosWarior@vcnet.com >-Poster: "Vickers, Jill" > > >I have just been informed by Amazon.com that they cannot get a copy >of The Little Corset Book by Bonnie Holt Ambrose for me. > >Does anyone know where else I can try to get a copy? On-line or mail >order sources are best. > >While on the subject...can anyone provide me with a review of this >book? It looks like it may be helpful, I have not been able to get much >information on it. > >Thanks, >-Jill > > > Try Borders.com you may have some luck with them ;-) C-YA! Scott _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Lynn Downward Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 09:41:07 -0800 Subject: Re: H-COST: Dry Cleaners in SF area? - -Poster: Lynn Downward >-Poster: wench359@juno.com > > >Can anyone recommend a good dry cleaner in the SF area who's willing to >touch vintage garments? Ideally someplace in the East Bay. > >After cleaning out closets after the roof sprung a new leak, I discovered >that the 1870's man's suit I had stored there has a few mildew spots on >it. > >I also just obtained a man's tailcoat of an unknown but old vintage that >really needs to be presssed if not cleaned. > >Any and all assistance greatly appreciated. Thanks! > >- Cat Hi, I've used Euwell's, on the corner of Alcatraz and Martin Luther King in Oakland. They were recommended to me by Katie Kliot from Lacis. I've used them for years and been very happy the whole time. You might call Lacis to see if they have any other suggestions. LynnD _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Finafyr@aol.com Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 12:31:20 EST Subject: Re: H-COST: Where To Purchase Corset Book? - -Poster: Finafyr@aol.com Try Amazon.uk.com I got ther Little corset book last month form them...if I didn't get the address right you can access them through amazon.com....Also check with Green Duck (sorry I know they are on the web but don't know the address right now) because I saw the book at an event we had called Ursulmas last month also. YIS Fionnbharr _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: KATHY HOOVER Date: Mon, 01 Mar 1999 12:52:07 -0500 Subject: Re: H-COST: Where To Purchase Corset Book? - -Poster: KATHY HOOVER I am in the same boat with Jill, having received the same message from Amazon this morning as well. If anyone has a response for Jill, could they post to me as well. Thanks, Kathy Hoover At 09:01 AM 3/1/99 -0800, you wrote: > >-Poster: "Vickers, Jill" > > >I have just been informed by Amazon.com that they cannot get a copy >of The Little Corset Book by Bonnie Holt Ambrose for me. > >Does anyone know where else I can try to get a copy? On-line or mail >order sources are best. > >While on the subject...can anyone provide me with a review of this >book? It looks like it may be helpful, I have not been able to get much >information on it. > >Thanks, >-Jill > _________________________________________________________________ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME > _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ End of h-costume-digest V4 #178 ******************************* _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME-DIGEST From ???@??? Tue Mar 02 10:34:41 1999 Received: from mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE (mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE [130.149.4.16]) by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA19564 for ; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 20:57:27 +0100 (MET) Received: from mail.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.15]) by mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10HYog-00071h-00; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 20:57:26 +0100 Received: from coal.bg.tu-berlin.de by mail.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Mon, 1 Mar 1999 20:57:13 +0100 Received: from mail2.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.14]) by mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10HYoP-000719-00; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 20:57:09 +0100 Received: from tubkom.prz.tu-berlin.de by mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Mon, 1 Mar 1999 20:56:58 +0100 Received: from mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE (mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE [130.149.4.16]) by tubkom.prz.tu-berlin.de (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA18791 for ; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 20:55:42 +0100 (MEZ) Received: from mail.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.15]) by mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10HYo7-00070m-00; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 20:56:51 +0100 Received: from server.indra.com by mail.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Mon, 1 Mar 1999 20:56:30 +0100 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.8.5/) with ESMTP id NAA29301; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 13:07:43 -0700 (MST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id MAA00786 for h-costume-digest-outgoing; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 12:54:57 -0700 (MST) Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 12:54:57 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199903011954.MAA00786@indra.com> From: owner-h-costume-digest@indra.com To: h-costume-digest@indra.com Subject: h-costume-digest V4 #179 Reply-To: h-costume-digest@indra.com Errors-To: owner-h-costume-digest@indra.com Precedence: bulk h-costume-digest Monday, 1 March 1999 Volume 04 : Number 179 In this issue: Re: H-COST: Where To Purchase Corset Book? Re: H-COST: Where To Purchase Corset Book? Re: H-COST: Proud of Merouda H-COST: Re:Dress form confusion! Re: H-COST: Proud of Merouda Re: H-COST: Re:Dress form confusion! Re: H-COST: Re:Dress form confusion! Re: H-COST: Re:Dress form confusion! H-COST: Riding astride, 1850's H-COST: Dress form trade? re: H-COST: Riding astride, 1850's Re: H-COST: Riding astride, 1850's ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: " Firefly" Date: Mon, 01 Mar 1999 17:57:53 -0000 Subject: Re: H-COST: Where To Purchase Corset Book? - -Poster: " Firefly" I've seen several copies of it on the book racks at G Street Fabrics in Rockville, MD and Centreville, VA. I know they will ship it if you call and order it by phone with a credit card. - --- Visit my homepage: http://pages.hotbot.com/travel/fire.fly On Mon, 1 Mar 1999 09:01:43 Vickers, Jill wrote: > >-Poster: "Vickers, Jill" > > >I have just been informed by Amazon.com that they cannot get a copy >of The Little Corset Book by Bonnie Holt Ambrose for me. > >Does anyone know where else I can try to get a copy? On-line or mail >order sources are best. > >While on the subject...can anyone provide me with a review of this >book? It looks like it may be helpful, I have not been able to get much >information on it. > >Thanks, >-Jill > _________________________________________________________________ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME > HotBot - Search smarter. http://www.hotbot.com _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Hope Greenberg Date: Mon, 01 Mar 1999 13:12:22 -0500 Subject: Re: H-COST: Where To Purchase Corset Book? - -Poster: Hope Greenberg Advanced Book Exchange (http://www.abebooks.com) has a listing for Ambrose's Little Corset Book. - - Hope _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Merouda of Bornover Date: Mon, 01 Mar 1999 10:20:08 -0800 Subject: Re: H-COST: Proud of Merouda - -Poster: Merouda of Bornover > I don't know if Merouda will let everyone else know, but we can be > quite proud of her. She won the Twelfth Night An Tir Costumer's Guild > costume competition for her experience level! I just found out last night! I was told a few weeks ago that the winner was someone named Morgana or something. I received a call last night telling me that my name had been mispronounced. I had completely let it all go, didn't expect to win so wasn't surprised when someone else took the prize. Only to discover it was me after all. I am on cloud 9. I would just like to say that I had lots and lots of support from lots and lots of people, Mistress Kat, Mistress Arlys, Giacinta, and Liadain being a few of them. But this list can definitely take some of the credit for my entry. And to all you others who've been there, well, you know who you are. Much love, excitement, gratitude, and near tears, Merouda Aka Cynthia - -- Cynthia Long Merouda of Bornover Barony of Madrone Kingdom of An Tir _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Lady Eleanor Date: Mon, 01 Mar 1999 10:38:40 -0800 Subject: H-COST: Re:Dress form confusion! - -Poster: Lady Eleanor Greetings from Lady Eleanor, This is the one subject that I really need help with, too, please! Is *this* the one that has the foam body with a gray cover over it? Did you have to specially fit the cover, or does it come already done? I'm considering a new dress form, and I really want one that will be accurate...I too have some figure flaws!...who DOESN'T?? I have seen one...don't know which brand or name...that comes with a canvas cover that you have to have soemone tailor to fit you...then you zip it onto the foam base, and it supposedly squinches in all the bits that need squinching to represent one's own figure. Are we talking the same form here? Sorry, I'm confused. I saw one at a sale that had the "torpedo" shaped breasts...ugh!...and thought it *might* work if the cover were really well fitted. I also investigated one of those really super, duper, deluxe professional models that is custom made...the kind that are used by professional studios and costume shops, and in the film industry, but Kripes! They wanted $600 for it! Way beyond my means. I have one of those adjustable ones, but I hate it! The gowns I make are so heavy that one of them broke the stupid plastic feet, so now the thing won't stand up properly! AARRRGGH!! I sometimes need it to be shaped just like me, but then sometimes I want to make gowns which require heavy corseting, some very tightly fitted without a corset, and of course the stupid thing is rigid, it doesn't take well to the corset, and I don't get a good fit! It also is not shaped like me...shoulders wrong, hips wrong in front and back!...breasts too high (I'm not that young anymore! :-) )...and some other problems. AARGGGHH! I've even considered the idea of having someone make a casting of my body...(GASP!)...which would require someome one could REALLY TRUST! Ha! Then, I could make a foam version that is really "just like me". But tht seems very involved, not to say embarassing!...even though I do know how to do it, I'm avoiding making that much of a "project" out of it. :-( I also know about the "duct tape version" that you fill with foam, or stuffing, and beginning to think that this would be the best option. *sigh* Any more clarificatin would be very helpful! The prices you mention are what I have seen, and are "do-able"...but I want to be *sure* first. Help! :-) Lady Eleanor Gaelscot@aol.com wrote: > > -Poster: Gaelscot@aol.com > > My husband bought me my Uniquely You dress form three years ago at Joanne... other good info snipped... _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Lady Eleanor Date: Mon, 01 Mar 1999 10:41:53 -0800 Subject: Re: H-COST: Proud of Merouda - -Poster: Lady Eleanor HUZZAH!! Many congratulations! Sure wish I could have seen your entry! I'll bet it was wonderful...well, I mean, it MUST have been. After all, you won...didn't you?? :-) Congrats! Lady Eleanor of Leycestershyre Minister of Arts and Sciences Barony of Aquaterra Kingdom of An Tir Merouda of Bornover wrote: > > -Poster: Merouda of Bornover > > > I don't know if Merouda will let everyone else know, but we can be > > quite proud of her. She won the Twelfth Night An Tir Costumer's Guild > > costume competition for her experience level! > > I just found out last night! I was told a few weeks ago that the winner > was someone named Morgana or something. I received a call last night > telling me that my name had been mispronounced. I had completely let it > all go, didn't expect to win so wasn't surprised when someone else took > the prize. Only to discover it was me after all. I am on cloud 9. > > I would just like to say that I had lots and lots of support from lots > and lots of people, Mistress Kat, Mistress Arlys, Giacinta, and Liadain > being a few of them. But this list can definitely take some of the > credit for my entry. And to all you others who've been there, well, you > know who you are. > > Much love, excitement, gratitude, and near tears, > Merouda > > Aka Cynthia > > -- > Cynthia Long > Merouda of Bornover > Barony of Madrone > Kingdom of An Tir > > _________________________________________________________________ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Margo Anderson Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 10:57:50 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: H-COST: Re:Dress form confusion! - -Poster: Margo Anderson >I've even considered the idea of having someone make a >casting of my body...(GASP!)...which would require someome >one could REALLY TRUST! I've done this,or rather my husband did it to me, with the paper tape over a T-shirt method. Yes, you do need someone you trust to do it, and I'd recommend Valium for the first sight of the thing. Six months of staring at mine have driven me to the gym. The problem with this method is that you get a hard, paper maiche type of form, which is useless if you need to corset it. I know that a similar method can be used to make a mold for a foam casting, but it's my understanding that the foam is hard, almost like Styrofoam. Is it possible to make one in a soft, corset-able foam? If so, can anyone steer me to a source? Margo _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Anah Date: Mon, 01 Mar 1999 13:52:53 -0500 Subject: Re: H-COST: Re:Dress form confusion! - -Poster: Anah > I have seen one...don't know which brand or name...that > comes with a canvas cover that you have to have soemone > tailor to fit you...then you zip it onto the foam base, and > it supposedly squinches in all the bits that need squinching > to represent one's own figure. Are we talking the same form > here? Sorry, I'm confused. I saw one at a sale that had > the "torpedo" shaped breasts...ugh!...and thought it *might* > work if the cover were really well fitted. lol you think it looks funny then, take a good look with the cover OFF. ok, now that you've picked yourself up off the floor from the raucacious (sp) laughter.. you have to have help to fit the cover to yourself. it needs to be (OMYGODICANTBREATHE) tight. because once you put it back on the foam base, it will stretch the cover a bit, so it will end up being a smidge bigger than yourself. AND you need to coax the foam to conform in places. AND it would be best to have an extra set of hands. one for zipping, and another for coaxing and pulling... now, I know it seems like it's too much bother, but I REALLY like mine. I own 2 of them, and am planning to get another. AND, the nice thing about the foamies...is that you CAN corset them. _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Lynn Downward Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 11:27:46 -0800 Subject: Re: H-COST: Re:Dress form confusion! - -Poster: Lynn Downward >-Poster: Margo Anderson > > >>I've even considered the idea of having someone make a >>casting of my body...(GASP!)...which would require someome >>one could REALLY TRUST! > >I've done this,or rather my husband did it to me, with the paper tape over >a T-shirt method. Yes, you do need someone you trust to do it, and I'd >recommend Valium for the first sight of the thing. Six months of staring at >mine have driven me to the gym. > >The problem with this method is that you get a hard, paper maiche type of >form, which is useless if you need to corset it. I know that a similar >method can be used to make a mold for a foam casting, but it's my >understanding that the foam is hard, almost like Styrofoam. Is it possible >to make one in a soft, corset-able foam? If so, can anyone steer me to a >source? > >Margo A friend and i were going to do this for each other over a period of a weekend day, one for her and one for me, and we came up with the same problem. What about the dresses we wanted to make over a Victorian corset and those over an Elizabethan corset? We decided that we'd take three separate days, and make one of each, labeling them *very* carefully as to who and which corset we wore under the t-shirt. I can't report any successes; we haven't had time to do any of the wrappings yet. BUT when we do, I'll let you know. (Give us six months or so.) LynnD _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Margo Anderson Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 11:27:44 -0800 (PST) Subject: H-COST: Riding astride, 1850's - -Poster: Margo Anderson As I've mentioned, I'm putting together some classes in costuming for an 1850's California wagon train event. Here's my problem: There are many ladies in this event who ride horseback, most of them astride. Now, I know they should probably be riding sidesaddle (aside). However, the level of training, practice, and expense involved makes it unfeasable at this point in time. I don't really know if emigrant women ever did ride astride; does anyone? So, what can I suggest they wear? Most of them I've seen in the last few years have worn blue jeans or other Western wear, which gives you an idea of the current level of authenticity. Rickman says he finds no mention of proper riding habits, and that they rode sidesaddle in regular dresses of the time, sometimes with leather breeches underneath. Is there a way to modify them so that the skirt won't hike up and show legs? Could a dress be made with an opening from waist to hem at CF that could be unbuttoned so that the skirt could drape over the back of the horse, maybe with some method to secure the front edges so that they don't blow back and show the legs? Or is just making the skirt very full a better solution? I don't ride OR know anything about horses or tack, so I'n stumped. With all the costumed equestrienne events out there, someone must have addressed this problem. Can anyone help? Margo _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: aleed Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 14:45:15 -0500 (EST) Subject: H-COST: Dress form trade? - -Poster: aleed I have a uniquely you dress form. It really is a godsend. When I got it, I had to get the largest size and then squeeze the bejeezus out of it to get it to the right size, as I was just a smidgen too big for the next size down. Now, however, I have dropped a couple of sizes and neither man nor miracle is going to get that dress form cover to fit. I was wondering, with all this talk of dress forms...is there anyone with a large-sized uniquely you dress form with, say, a 33 " waist and 44" bust, who would be willing to trade for the next size larger up? If not, does anyone know if or how I can exchange my dress form and get a new one from Uniquely You without paying another arm and leg? Thanks, Drea On Mon, 1 Mar 1999, Anah wrote: > > -Poster: Anah > > > I have seen one...don't know which brand or name...that > > comes with a canvas cover that you have to have soemone > > tailor to fit you...then you zip it onto the foam base, and > > it supposedly squinches in all the bits that need squinching > > to represent one's own figure. Are we talking the same form > > here? Sorry, I'm confused. I saw one at a sale that had > > the "torpedo" shaped breasts...ugh!...and thought it *might* > > work if the cover were really well fitted. > > lol you think it looks funny then, take a good look with the cover > OFF. ok, now that you've picked yourself up off the floor from the > raucacious (sp) laughter.. > > you have to have help to fit the cover to yourself. it needs to be > (OMYGODICANTBREATHE) tight. because once you put it back on the foam > base, it will stretch the cover a bit, so it will end up being a smidge > bigger than yourself. AND you need to coax the foam to conform in > places. AND it would be best to have an extra set of hands. one for > zipping, and another for coaxing and pulling... > > now, I know it seems like it's too much bother, but I REALLY like mine. > I own 2 of them, and am planning to get another. > > AND, the nice thing about the foamies...is that you CAN corset them. > _________________________________________________________________ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME > _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "David W. Rickman" Date: Mon, 1 Mar 99 14:53:20 EST Subject: re: H-COST: Riding astride, 1850's - -Poster: "David W. Rickman" Hello Margo, Thanks for citing me. The question I have is this: is this wagon train event just for recreation, or is it to be sold to the public as an "historical reenactmen?" If it is for recreation, let them wear whatever they like. If it is to be presented to the public as an historical reenactment, then let the women walk or ride in wagons. That would be historical. Only a handful of women on the Overland Trail would ride. When they rode, they rode sidesaddle and wore woolen day dresses and (in the case of Narcissa Whitman, at least) some wore leather breeches beneath to cut down on chafing). That is history. Anything else is recreation (i.e. for fun). Good luck. David "Margo Anderson" Wrote: | | | -Poster: Margo Anderson | | As I've mentioned, I'm putting together some classes in | costuming for an | 1850's California wagon train event. Here's my problem: | There are many | ladies in this event who ride horseback, most of them | astride. Now, I know | they should probably be riding sidesaddle (aside). | However, the level of | training, practice, and expense involved makes it | unfeasable at this point | in time. I don't really know if emigrant women ever did | ride astride; does | anyone? | | So, what can I suggest they wear? Most of them I've | seen in the last few | years have worn blue jeans or other Western wear, which | gives you an idea of | the current level of authenticity. Rickman says he | finds no mention of | proper riding habits, and that they rode sidesaddle in | regular dresses of | the time, sometimes with leather breeches underneath. Is | there a way to | modify them so that the skirt won't hike up and show legs? | Could a dress | be made with an opening from waist to hem at CF that could | be unbuttoned so | that the skirt could drape over the back of the horse, | maybe with some | method to secure the front edges so that they don't blow | back and show the | legs? Or is just making the skirt very full a better | solution? | | I don't ride OR know anything about horses or tack, so I'n | stumped. With | all the costumed equestrienne events out there, someone | must have addressed | this problem. Can anyone help? | | Margo | | | __________________________________________________________ | _______ | To leave this mailing list, send mail to | majordomo@indra.com | with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME | _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Lynn Downward Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 11:59:56 -0800 Subject: Re: H-COST: Riding astride, 1850's - -Poster: Lynn Downward >-Poster: Margo Anderson > >As I've mentioned, I'm putting together some classes in costuming for an >1850's California wagon train event. Here's my problem: There are many >ladies in this event who ride horseback, most of them astride. Now, I know >they should probably be riding sidesaddle (aside). However, the level of >training, practice, and expense involved makes it unfeasable at this point >in time. I don't really know if emigrant women ever did ride astride; does >anyone? > >So, what can I suggest they wear? Most of them I've seen in the last few >years have worn blue jeans or other Western wear, which gives you an idea of >the current level of authenticity. Rickman says he finds no mention of >proper riding habits, and that they rode sidesaddle in regular dresses of >the time, sometimes with leather breeches underneath. Is there a way to >modify them so that the skirt won't hike up and show legs? Could a dress >be made with an opening from waist to hem at CF that could be unbuttoned so >that the skirt could drape over the back of the horse, maybe with some >method to secure the front edges so that they don't blow back and show the >legs? Or is just making the skirt very full a better solution? > >I don't ride OR know anything about horses or tack, so I'n stumped. With >all the costumed equestrienne events out there, someone must have addressed >this problem. Can anyone help? > >Margo > I don't ride and this is just a guess: But during my childhood, Annie Oaklie and Dale Evans in the movies (yes I know, Hollywood) used to wear a coulotte-style skirt to ride in, and it seems to me there were buttons on either leg so there could be a flap sort of thing to close the front (and back?) once the woman was finished riding. This is also seen in many of the parades where women are riding in Western and California-Spanish styles even now. I'm not saying that this idea is period for the 1850's, but it seems to me to be more possible/appropriate for a woman than jeans, although I'm sure lots of women crossing the country would have gone for the simple idea of cutting down her husband's trousers to wear out in the badlands, changing once a fort or town came into view. BTW, doesn't Folkwears have a pattern like this? LynnD trusting to Hollywood just this once _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ End of h-costume-digest V4 #179 ******************************* _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME-DIGEST From ???@??? Tue Mar 02 10:34:41 1999 Received: from mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE (mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE [130.149.4.16]) by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA20112 for ; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 22:47:09 +0100 (MET) Received: from mail.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.15]) by mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10HaWp-0001qr-00; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 22:47:07 +0100 Received: from coal.bg.tu-berlin.de by mail.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Mon, 1 Mar 1999 22:46:56 +0100 Received: from mail2.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.14]) by mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10HaWb-0001qe-00; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 22:46:53 +0100 Received: from tubkom.prz.tu-berlin.de by mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Mon, 1 Mar 1999 22:46:44 +0100 Received: from mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE (mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE [130.149.4.16]) by tubkom.prz.tu-berlin.de (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA19340 for ; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 22:45:31 +0100 (MEZ) Received: from mail.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.15]) by mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10HaWO-0001qL-00; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 22:46:40 +0100 Received: from server.indra.com by mail.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Mon, 1 Mar 1999 22:44:54 +0100 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.8.5/) with ESMTP id OAA19864; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 14:56:10 -0700 (MST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id OAA20046 for h-costume-digest-outgoing; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 14:43:23 -0700 (MST) Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 14:43:23 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199903012143.OAA20046@indra.com> From: owner-h-costume-digest@indra.com To: h-costume-digest@indra.com Subject: h-costume-digest V4 #180 Reply-To: h-costume-digest@indra.com Errors-To: owner-h-costume-digest@indra.com Precedence: bulk h-costume-digest Monday, 1 March 1999 Volume 04 : Number 180 In this issue: Re: H-COST: Re:Dress form confusion! H-COST: fitting problem (was Dress form confusion!) Re: H-COST: Re:Dress form confusion! Re: H-COST: fitting problem (was Dress form confusion!) H-COST: Side saddle dress pattern H-COST: Re:Riding astride H-COST: Fisherman's sweaters and farthingale covers (no, not together) Re: H-COST: Riding astride, 1850's RE: H-COST: fitting problem (was Dress form confusion!) H-COST: Riding astride, 1850's ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Lady Eleanor Date: Mon, 01 Mar 1999 12:09:46 -0800 Subject: Re: H-COST: Re:Dress form confusion! - -Poster: Lady Eleanor Hi Margo, Margo Anderson wrote: > I've done this,or rather my husband did it to me, with the paper tape over > a T-shirt method. Yes, you do need someone you trust to do it, and I'd > recommend Valium for the first sight of the thing. Six months of staring at > mine have driven me to the gym. Ha-ha-ha! I KNOW what you mean! > The problem with this method is that you get a hard, paper maiche type of > form, which is useless if you need to corset it. Exactly. Same problem I have already. :-) I know that a similar > method can be used to make a mold for a foam casting, but it's my > understanding that the foam is hard, almost like Styrofoam. If we are talking about insulation foam...yup! I've got the stuff in the walls of my house, and it's very like styrofoam. Is it possible > to make one in a soft, corset-able foam? If so, can anyone steer me to a > source? Well...here I can be of help here. Here are two links...well, all right they are for "monster making" (grin) but the supplies would be the same. :-) http://alt.xmission.com/~spl_efx/index.html#top http://www.monstermakers.com/ I would recommend foamed latex. That is what they use in professional special affects shops and make-up shops to do latex appliances for specialty make-ups. It is soft, and pliable. It is possbile to cast the body from an already prepared negative using foamed latex. You would then get a "squishable" form...exactly in your shape, that could be corseted, very accurately! This is the technique that I have been considering for some time. It does take some experience to work with...it ain't cheap...and also requires baking to set the latex...so you would need to take that into consideration in making a dress form. In thinking about how I could use a regular kitchen oven for this, I pretty much determined that my mold would have to be cut in four sections. Top front, top back, bottom front, bottom back, with seams at the waist and sides. That's the only way I could conceive of doing it "at home". If anyone has actually done this, I'd love to her about it! I know the technique, from my years in the theatre, but don't have any practical experience with actually producing foamed latex. In service, Lady Eleanor > Margo > > _________________________________________________________________ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Charlene Charette Date: Mon, 01 Mar 1999 14:19:19 -0600 Subject: H-COST: fitting problem (was Dress form confusion!) - -Poster: Charlene Charette Margo Anderson wrote: > The problem with this method is that you get a hard, paper maiche type of > form, which is useless if you need to corset it. I know that a similar > method can be used to make a mold for a foam casting, but it's my > understanding that the foam is hard, almost like Styrofoam. Is it possible > to make one in a soft, corset-able foam? If so, can anyone steer me to a > source? Which leads to a corollary question: how on earth do you fit a dress that has no separate breast support? That is, the bodice of the dress holds you rather than a corset, but the bust is not in the same place it is with a modern bra. So, how do you keep the bust in place while you fit? - --Charlene - -- Stereotypes are devices for saving a biased person the trouble of learning. _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Lady Eleanor Date: Mon, 01 Mar 1999 12:21:49 -0800 Subject: Re: H-COST: Re:Dress form confusion! - -Poster: Lady Eleanor Anah wrote: > > -Poster: Anah > lol you think it looks funny then, take a good look with the cover > OFF. ok, now that you've picked yourself up off the floor from the > raucacious (sp) laughter.. WA-HA-HA-HA! You're not kidding! The one I did see was "nude" (minus it's cover) and I thought, OHMYGOSH! Ha! Yup! That's the one I mean! :-) > you have to have help to fit the cover to yourself. it needs to be > (OMYGODICANTBREATHE) tight. because once you put it back on the foam > base, it will stretch the cover a bit, so it will end up being a smidge > bigger than yourself. AND you need to coax the foam to conform in > places. AND it would be best to have an extra set of hands. one for > zipping, and another for coaxing and pulling... I can manage the extra hands. :-) Thanks for the tip! > now, I know it seems like it's too much bother, but I REALLY like mine. > I own 2 of them, and am planning to get another. > AND, the nice thing about the foamies...is that you CAN corset them. Just what I am in need of! I just called Atlantic for a copy of their catalog. Can't wait till it arrives! Thanks, Lady Eleanor > _________________________________________________________________ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Andrea Gideon" Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 15:41:37 -0800 Subject: Re: H-COST: fitting problem (was Dress form confusion!) - -Poster: "Andrea Gideon" >Which leads to a corollary question: how on earth do you fit a dress that has >no separate breast support? That is, the bodice of the dress holds you rather >than a corset, but the bust is not in the same place it is with a modern bra. >So, how do you keep the bust in place while you fit? > >--Charlene What I would do is make the just the bodice up in cheap fabric, but of the same weight as your gown fabric, and wear this while making the casting. Andrea _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Kent & Kat Date: Mon, 01 Mar 1999 14:39:16 -0600 Subject: H-COST: Side saddle dress pattern - -Poster: Kent & Kat http://www.westernpatterns.com/page4.html They have a side saddle dress pattern here. Kat _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Andrea Clef Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 14:39:24 +0100 Subject: H-COST: Re:Riding astride - -Poster: Andrea Clef - --------------72ABC393DD8D8EC38DB79540 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I don't ride and this is just a guess: But during my childhood, Annie > Oaklie and Dale Evans in the movies (yes I know, Hollywood) used to wear a > coulotte-style skirt to ride in, and it seems to me there were buttons on > either leg so there could be a flap sort of thing to close the front (and > back?) once the woman was finished riding. This is also seen in many of the > parades where women are riding in Western and California-Spanish styles > even now. I'm not saying that this idea is period for the 1850's, but it > seems to me to be more possible/appropriate for a woman than jeans, > although I'm sure lots of women crossing the country would have gone for > the simple idea of cutting down her husband's trousers to wear out in the > badlands, changing once a fort or town came into view. BTW, doesn't > Folkwears have a pattern like this? > If something like a skirt is the desired thing, it also depends on the type of saddle used which kind of skirt could be taken. For a western saddle the above mentioned would be best as the saddle is big and any other kind of skirt would get hooked up on all corners. If an english saddle is used, one could wear breaches underneath for comfort and a very wide skirt over them that could be draped nicely over the saddle and the horse`s back. This is usually seen in the Carnival parades over here with costumed riders. I could imagine this to work, I`m a rider myself. As most horses that take part in parades are very calm, it should be no problem for them to be covered in a large skirt, partially at least ;-). Greetings, Diana - --------------72ABC393DD8D8EC38DB79540 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit 
I don't ride and this is just a guess:  But during my childhood, Annie
Oaklie and Dale Evans in the movies (yes I know, Hollywood) used to wear a
coulotte-style skirt to ride in, and it seems to me there were buttons on
either leg so there could be a flap sort of thing to close the front (and
back?) once the woman was finished riding. This is also seen in many of the
parades where women are riding in  Western and California-Spanish styles
even now.  I'm not saying that this idea is period for the 1850's, but it
seems to me to be more possible/appropriate for a woman than jeans,
although I'm sure lots of women crossing the country would have gone for
the simple idea of cutting down her husband's trousers to wear out in the
badlands, changing once a fort or town came into view.  BTW, doesn't
Folkwears have a pattern like this?
If something like a skirt is the desired thing, it also depends on the type of saddle
used which kind of skirt could be taken.
For a western saddle the above mentioned would be best as the saddle is big and
any other kind of skirt would get hooked up on all corners.
If an english saddle is used, one could wear breaches underneath for comfort and
a very wide skirt over them that could be draped nicely over the saddle and the
horse`s back.
This is usually seen in the Carnival parades over here with costumed riders.
I could imagine this to work, I`m a rider myself.

As most horses that take part in parades are very calm, it should be no problem
for them to be covered in a large skirt, partially at least ;-).

Greetings,
Diana
  - --------------72ABC393DD8D8EC38DB79540-- _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Kimberly Gilbert Date: Mon, 01 Mar 1999 15:44:42 -0500 Subject: H-COST: Fisherman's sweaters and farthingale covers (no, not together) - -Poster: Kimberly Gilbert I have two questions following a SCA demo I participated in this weekend. 1. A lady there was telling the kids that fisherman's sweaters are period. She was using her own as an example. I didn't hear all of what she said, but I caught something along the lines of patterns being different from person to person as some form of identification, and that people have been knitting for a thousand years. I don't dispute that knitting is an old, old craft, but my understanding is that it has evolved over the years. My question is, how far back do fisherman's sweaters go? I've never seen evidence of their existance, but then I haven't looked that hard. I'm just skeptical that fisherman's sweaters as we know them today existed back before 1600. This lady is someone with whom I want absolutely minimal contact, so I can't ask her where she found this information. 2. In the morning I was helping one lady into her garb and noticed another who had a sort of quilted skirt that she wore over her farthingale. It's purpose as far as I can tell would be to keep the ridges from the hoops from being visible through the underskirt. Very practical, it seems to me. I was wondering if this was common in the Elizabethan era. If anyone can shed any light on either of these, I'd be very interested in hearing what people have to say. Kimberly Kimberly Gilbert kimberly@bluemarble.net "This is terrible news! Do you actually intend to kill your enemies? Can't you just speak sternly to them?" _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: " Firefly" Date: Mon, 01 Mar 1999 20:47:37 -0000 Subject: Re: H-COST: Riding astride, 1850's - -Poster: " Firefly" The following suuggestion is NOT period authentic, since nearly all the women would have been riding side saddle. You could make a period styled riding habit, splitting the skirt. The split could be "resealed" when the rider was off-sadle (buttoned, snapped, heck even velcroed, since at any rate, it's really a costume adaptation)and hidden under an over skirt or similar overskirt decoration (like those tassled strips of black wool that would often be draped over skirts). I would just suggest keeping the style tailored, since riding styles were more mannish than the more frilly day dresses of the era. The ladies could have regular underpinnings --corset, petticoats (these would just hike up when riding), chemise--though I would highly suggest using starched petticoats rather than hoop skirts (anyways, riding habits weren't worn with hoops even side saddle)--hoops could inspire interesting spectator perspectives on your re-enactment!!! Heaven forbid if anyone should get unduly inspired and try side saddle--I understand it's quite dangerous if you aren't trained & experienced in the art! I think you have to mediate the best accomodation you can to the skill and safety of the reenactors. That might mean resorting to something very modern (like using velcro)to get the best illusion you can try for. Most women probably would have been either walking or riding in carts. They can probably wear regular day clothes of the era (no split skirts). A recent exhibit here at the DAR museum had a display about how women of the frontier would often be quite stylishly dressed--unlike the image portrayed in television shows like Dr. Quinn Medicine Woman and Little House in the Prairie. Also, watch out for the footwear--no cowboy boots! - --- Visit my homepage: http://pages.hotbot.com/travel/fire.fly On Mon, 1 Mar 1999 11:27:44 Margo Anderson wrote: > >-Poster: Margo Anderson > >As I've mentioned, I'm putting together some classes in costuming for an >1850's California wagon train event. Here's my problem: There are many >ladies in this event who ride horseback, most of them astride. Now, I know >they should probably be riding sidesaddle (aside). However, the level of >training, practice, and expense involved makes it unfeasable at this point >in time. I don't really know if emigrant women ever did ride astride; does >anyone? > >So, what can I suggest they wear? Most of them I've seen in the last few >years have worn blue jeans or other Western wear, which gives you an idea of >the current level of authenticity. Rickman says he finds no mention of >proper riding habits, and that they rode sidesaddle in regular dresses of >the time, sometimes with leather breeches underneath. Is there a way to >modify them so that the skirt won't hike up and show legs? Could a dress >be made with an opening from waist to hem at CF that could be unbuttoned so >that the skirt could drape over the back of the horse, maybe with some >method to secure the front edges so that they don't blow back and show the >legs? Or is just making the skirt very full a better solution? > >I don't ride OR know anything about horses or tack, so I'n stumped. With >all the costumed equestrienne events out there, someone must have addressed >this problem. Can anyone help? > >Margo > > _________________________________________________________________ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME > HotBot - Search smarter. http://www.hotbot.com _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Kasia Wasilewski Date: 01 Mar 99 16:09:44 -0500 Subject: RE: H-COST: fitting problem (was Dress form confusion!) - -Poster: Kasia Wasilewski Reply to: RE: H-COST: fitting problem (was Dress form confusion!= ) Try lying down or by gradually pinning and then shifting, until you have = the desired effect and support. Working with someone close who doesn't = mind reaching in and shifting for you helps. [;)] Charlene Charette wrote: > >-Poster: Charlene Charette > >Margo Anderson wrote: > >> The problem with this method is that you get a hard, paper maiche type = of >> form, which is useless if you need to corset it. I know that a similar >> method can be used to make a mold for a foam casting, but it's my >> understanding that the foam is hard, almost like Styrofoam. Is it = possible >> to make one in a soft, corset-able foam? If so, can anyone steer me to = a >> source? > >Which leads to a corollary question: how on earth do you fit a dress = that has >no separate breast support? That is, the bodice of the dress holds you = rather >than a corset, but the bust is not in the same place it is with a modern = bra. >So, how do you keep the bust in place while you fit? > >--Charlene > >-- >Stereotypes are devices for saving a biased person the trouble of = learning. > > > _________________________________________________________________ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME > > >RFC822 header >----------------------------------- > > RECEIVED: from SF_Database by POP_Mailbox_-1291821517 ; 01 MAR 99 15:09:= 39 UT > Received: from SERVER.INDRA.COM by xterm4.nyc.access.net > with SMTP (QuickMail Pro Server for MacOS 1.1.2); 01-Mar-1999 = >15:09:38 -0400 > Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) > by server.indra.com (8.8.5/) with ESMTP id NAA04116; > Mon, 1 Mar 1999 13:32:36 -0700 (MST) > Received: (from majordom@localhost) > by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id NAA05101 > for h-costume-outgoing; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 13:19:44 -0700 (MST) > Received: from crius.flash.net (crius.flash.net [209.30.0.49]) > by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id NAA05078 > for ; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 13:19:39 -0700 (MST) > Received: from flash.net (p234.amax5.dialup.hou1.flash.net [209.30.64.= 234]) > by crius.flash.net (8.9.1/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA24742 > for ; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 14:19:45 -0600 (CST) > Message-ID: <36DAF647.48383503@flash.net> > Date: Mon, 01 Mar 1999 14:19:19 -0600 > From: Charlene Charette > X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.06 [en] (Win95; I) > MIME-Version: 1.0 > To: h-costume@indra.com > Subject: H-COST: fitting problem (was Dress form confusion!) > References: <199903011857.KAA03545@zeus.directcon.net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3Dus-ascii > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com > Precedence: bulk > Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com > _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Melanie Wilson Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 16:42:33 -0500 Subject: H-COST: Riding astride, 1850's - -Poster: Melanie Wilson I bought a pattern from Alter Years, with a culotte style pattern, which looked pretty good as a skirt & is OK to ride in. I ride aside & astride and I would not suggest riding with a skirt astrid= e as to look like a skirt rather that a piece of fabric round the waist, yo= u need heaps of fabric. Particularly with a western saddle (with its high pommel;) this is potentially very dangerous. The reason that specially cu= t riding aprons were eventually introduced was because some women got prett= y sick of seeing their sisters killed by being dragged behind a horse by their excessive skirts. Having said that I've ridden aside in Period typ= e skirts, but for safetys sake we slit one side & velcro it shut, at the top(ie so one leg would be exposed if you stretched it out to the side) that way, it (hopefully) is left behind should we fall. = Training a load of people & horses to side saddle & buying all those saddles would be very difficult. Although I like and aim for historiv accuracy, there is a point where safety comes forst. Mel _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ End of h-costume-digest V4 #180 ******************************* _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME-DIGEST From ???@??? Tue Mar 02 10:34:42 1999 Received: from mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE (mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE [130.149.4.16]) by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA20741 for ; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 00:48:02 +0100 (MET) Received: from mail.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.15]) by mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10HcPp-0004UE-00; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 00:48:01 +0100 Received: from coal.bg.tu-berlin.de by mail.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Tue, 2 Mar 1999 00:47:56 +0100 Received: from mail2.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.14]) by mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10HcPf-0004Tv-01; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 00:47:51 +0100 Received: from tubkom.prz.tu-berlin.de by mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Tue, 2 Mar 1999 00:46:41 +0100 Received: from mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE (mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE [130.149.4.16]) by tubkom.prz.tu-berlin.de (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA19954 for ; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 00:45:28 +0100 (MEZ) Received: from mail.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.15]) by mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10HcOQ-0004S8-00; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 00:46:34 +0100 Received: from server.indra.com by mail.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Tue, 2 Mar 1999 00:45:08 +0100 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.8.5/) with ESMTP id QAA11205; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 16:56:31 -0700 (MST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id QAA22075 for h-costume-digest-outgoing; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 16:43:42 -0700 (MST) Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 16:43:42 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199903012343.QAA22075@indra.com> From: owner-h-costume-digest@indra.com To: h-costume-digest@indra.com Subject: h-costume-digest V4 #181 Reply-To: h-costume-digest@indra.com Errors-To: owner-h-costume-digest@indra.com Precedence: bulk h-costume-digest Monday, 1 March 1999 Volume 04 : Number 181 In this issue: re: H-COST: Riding astride, 1850's re: H-COST: Riding astride, 1850's Re: H-COST: Riding astride, 1850's RE: H-COST: Where To Purchase Corset Book? Re: H-COST: Riding astride, 1850's Re: H-COST: Proud of Merouda H-COST: Review of Corset Book? Re: H-COST: Proud of Merouda RE: H-COST: Where To Purchase Corset Book? H-COST: fishermen H-COST: threads Re: H-COST: Proud of Merouda H-COST: Re: Little Corset Book ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Margo Anderson Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 13:48:31 -0800 (PST) Subject: re: H-COST: Riding astride, 1850's - -Poster: Margo Anderson At 02:53 PM 3/1/99 EST, you wrote: > >-Poster: "David W. Rickman" > >Hello Margo, > >Thanks for citing me. The question I have is this: is this wagon train event >just for recreation, or is it to be sold to the public as an "historical >reenactmen?" Well, that''s part of my problem. I'm not sure the event organizers have ever considered the question, or would know what it meant. This is the Highway 50 Wagon Train, which goes from Lake Tahoe to Placerville, California. This event is over 50 years old, and there are people who've been riding it all their lives. Non-participant people in town, especially merchants, are also encouraged to be in costume for the week. I'm currently waiting for a call back from one of the organizers who should be able to tell me if they have any costume rules or guidelines. If not, and if, from the tone of the conversation, it seems like a politically astute idea, I may offer to write some. This event is what hooked me on historic costume, at the age of 6, and I would like to give something back to it. My classes would be offered through the Parks and Rec department, so that only those who are interested would take them and they wouldn't be an official part of the organization. I really don't want to start the reenactment vs recreation debate again, especially with someone whose work I'm currently carrying around with me everywhere and doing my best to memorize. But I do believe that in the case of an established event like this one, which does have members who are interested in looking more...well, "authentic" isn't the word...maybe "believable"? there is a place for compromise. I'm not really seeking a historical solution, I left that open in case there was one, but I doubted it. What I'm looking for is what I'm forced to call a theatrical compromise, something that is less jarring to the eye than blue jeans. I would, of course, explain that it isn't historically accurate. This isn't my favorite type of resolution, but I'm not interested in antagonizing people too much. While some of them don't care, and will continue to wear whatever they like,some of them might be interested enough to think about making a "historically flavored" costume. Given the encouragement and guidance, they might eventually get interested enough to buy sidesaddles and train their horses. However, this is a process that can take several years, and I'd like to suggest something they can wear in the meantime. This involves taking the long view, but standards can and do improve. I know, I've seen it happen with other events, and I'd like to be a part of its happening here. Margo Anderson _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "David W. Rickman" Date: Mon, 1 Mar 99 17:07:27 EST Subject: re: H-COST: Riding astride, 1850's - -Poster: "David W. Rickman" Hello Margo, Sounds to me as if you have the right approach. But do be careful. These things can break your heart if you care too much. I know. Meanwhile, do you know about the Past Patterns symposium in Columbia next week? It may be rather late to apply, but it is devoted to making Gold Rush era costumes. I will be speaking there on Sunday, March 14, about Californio costumes. You might enjoy it. The number, I believe is 765-962-3773. Best wishes, David "Margo Anderson" Wrote: | | | -Poster: Margo Anderson | | At 02:53 PM 3/1/99 EST, you wrote: | > | >-Poster: "David W. Rickman" | > | >Hello Margo, | > | >Thanks for citing me. The question I have is this: is | this wagon train event | >just for recreation, or is it to be sold to the public as | an "historical | >reenactmen?" | | Well, that''s part of my problem. I'm not sure the event | organizers have | ever considered the question, or would know what it meant. | This is the | Highway 50 Wagon Train, which goes from Lake Tahoe to | Placerville, | California. This event is over 50 years old, and there | are people who've | been riding it all their lives. Non-participant people in | town, especially | merchants, are also encouraged to be in costume for the | week. | | I'm currently waiting for a call back from one of the | organizers who | should be able to tell me if they have any costume rules | or guidelines. If | not, and if, from the tone of the conversation, it seems | like a politically | astute idea, I may offer to write some. This event is | what hooked me on | historic costume, at the age of 6, and I would like to | give something back | to it. My classes would be offered through the Parks and | Rec department, | so that only those who are interested would take them and | they wouldn't be | an official part of the organization. | | I really don't want to start the reenactment vs recreation | debate again, | especially with someone whose work I'm currently carrying | around with me | everywhere and doing my best to memorize. But I do | believe that in the case | of an established event like this one, which does have | members who are | interested in looking more...well, "authentic" isn't the | word...maybe | "believable"? there is a place for compromise. | | I'm not really seeking a historical solution, I left that | open in case | there was one, but I doubted it. What I'm looking for is | what I'm forced to | call a theatrical compromise, something that is less | jarring to the eye than | blue jeans. I would, of course, explain that it isn't | historically | accurate. This isn't my favorite type of resolution, but | I'm not | interested in antagonizing people too much. While some | of them don't | care, and will continue to wear whatever they like,some of | them might be | interested enough to think about making a "historically | flavored" costume. | Given the encouragement and guidance, they might | eventually get interested | enough to buy sidesaddles and train their horses. However, | this is a process | that can take several years, and I'd like to suggest | something they can wear | in the meantime. | | This involves taking the long view, but standards can and | do improve. I | know, I've seen it happen with other events, and I'd like | to be a part of | its happening here. | | Margo Anderson | | | | | | __________________________________________________________ | _______ | To leave this mailing list, send mail to | majordomo@indra.com | with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME | _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Emma Elizabeth Lehman <00217146@bigred.unl.edu> Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 16:08:43 -0600 (CST) Subject: Re: H-COST: Riding astride, 1850's - -Poster: Emma Elizabeth Lehman <00217146@bigred.unl.edu> I have seen a beautiful split skirt much like you discribe in one of my books...unfortunately, I'm neither sure which one nor what the date was. I'll take a look when I get home. On Mon, 1 Mar 1999, Lynn Downward wrote: > I don't ride and this is just a guess: But during my childhood, Annie > Oaklie and Dale Evans in the movies (yes I know, Hollywood) used to wear a > coulotte-style skirt to ride in, and it seems to me there were buttons on > either leg so there could be a flap sort of thing to close the front (and > back?) once the woman was finished riding. This is also seen in many of the > parades where women are riding in Western and California-Spanish styles > even now. I'm not saying that this idea is period for the 1850's, but it > seems to me to be more possible/appropriate for a woman than jeans, > although I'm sure lots of women crossing the country would have gone for > the simple idea of cutting down her husband's trousers to wear out in the > badlands, changing once a fort or town came into view. BTW, doesn't > Folkwears have a pattern like this? > > LynnD > trusting to Hollywood just this once > _________________________________________________________________ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME > _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Vickers, Jill" Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 14:45:00 -0800 Subject: RE: H-COST: Where To Purchase Corset Book? - -Poster: "Vickers, Jill" Thanks everyone for your suggestions! Kathy, I found one at barnesandnoble.com. It was $5.95 plus 3.95 shipping and their delivery time is 1-2 1/2 weeks. - -Jill > -Poster: KATHY HOOVER > > I am in the same boat with Jill, having received the same message from > Amazon this morning as well. If anyone has a response for Jill, could > they > post to me as well. > > Thanks, > Kathy Hoover > > _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Margo Anderson Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 14:55:52 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: H-COST: Riding astride, 1850's - -Poster: Margo Anderson > >-Poster: Melanie Wilson >I've ridden aside in Period type >skirts, but for safetys sake we slit one side & velcro it shut, at the >top(ie so one leg would be exposed if you stretched it out to the side) >that way, it (hopefully) is left behind should we fall. > > Thanks, Melanie. that's exactly the kind of information I was hoping for. Margo _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Frank&Tracy Thallas JR" Date: Mon, 01 Mar 99 17:09:27 PST Subject: Re: H-COST: Proud of Merouda - -Poster: "Frank&Tracy Thallas JR" Hip-hip-huzzah! Somehow there must be a way for us all to see this winderful creation.... All Health! Liadain - ---------- > > -Poster: kat@grendal.rain.com > > I don't know if Merouda will let everyone else know, but we can be > quite proud of her. She won the Twelfth Night An Tir Costumer's Guild = > costume competition for her experience level! > > She was up against a large number of people with some stiff > competition. Her garment was very well made and well documented (as > well as looking very nice on her!) We (the judges for the contest) > were quite impressed with her. > > > Kat > > Kat(June Russell) > kat@grendal.rain.com > Heu! Tintinnuntius meus Sonat! > _________________________________________________________________ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME > _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Date: Mon, 1 Mar 99 18:12:13 -0500 Subject: H-COST: Review of Corset Book? - -Poster: Jill also asked about the Little Corset Book, >While on the subject...can anyone provide me with a review of this >book? It looks like it may be helpful, I have not been able to get much >information on it. I looked at it on the shelf at G Street Fabrics, and my reaction was to cringe! The "little" books seem to be written from a theatrical standpoint. If you're looking to make stays or corsets that are historically accurate, this isn't the book to get! The techniques don't look like they'll be sturdy compared to period techniques, and some of the boning placement is incorrect and could also be uncomfortable. _Corsets and Crinolines_ is the book to buy. Yes, it's more expensive, but you definitely get what you pay for. Hunnisett's costume books also have decent corset information, and she's actually writing for theatrical costumers! A friend bought the little corset book. I gave her a copy of _Corsets & Crinolines_ with the understanding that she burn the little corset book in a little bonfire. :) -Carol Kocian _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Gia Gavino-Gattshall" Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 15:23:46 -0800 Subject: Re: H-COST: Proud of Merouda - -Poster: "Gia Gavino-Gattshall" Huzzah, Merouda! Yes, I am proud of her as well, as one who got a few 'sneak peeks' while she was working on it and the final finished product. Keep up the *great* costuming and researching! I'm looking forward to seeing what you do for your next project! Gia/Giacinta - -----Original Message----- From: kat@grendal.rain.com To: h-costume@indra.com Date: Monday, March 01, 1999 7:40 AM Subject: H-COST: Proud of Merouda - -Poster: kat@grendal.rain.com I don't know if Merouda will let everyone else know, but we can be quite proud of her. She won the Twelfth Night An Tir Costumer's Guild costume competition for her experience level! She was up against a large number of people with some stiff competition. Her garment was very well made and well documented (as well as looking very nice on her!) We (the judges for the contest) were quite impressed with her. Kat Kat(June Russell) kat@grendal.rain.com Heu! Tintinnuntius meus Sonat! _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: WICKHAM Raymond Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 10:16:35 +1100 Subject: RE: H-COST: Where To Purchase Corset Book? - -Poster: WICKHAM Raymond Greetings Smoke and fire had this in their basic catalogue http://www.smoke-fire.com/ they have been having problems with their website but they can be emailed I will get you the email address if necessary Ray _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: pulliam@acadia.net (Deborah Pulliam) Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 18:24:08 -0500 Subject: H-COST: fishermen - -Poster: pulliam@acadia.net (Deborah Pulliam) <> Fisherman's sweaters are strictly a very late nineteenth/twentieth century invention. Deborah _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: pulliam@acadia.net (Deborah Pulliam) Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 18:24:20 -0500 Subject: H-COST: threads - -Poster: pulliam@acadia.net (Deborah Pulliam) << I mean I have heard terms like "#10", - "10 ounce" and "35/2" used to describe various threads.>> 35/2 is a way of identifying weaving thread (originally linen, but I've also seen it applied to cotton recently.) It's often referred to as "lea." The second number refers to the number of plies, so a 16/1 is a singles (*not* single ply!), and a 16/4 would be four times as heavy as the first. The first number refers to the weight of the first (usually yards per pound), so the larger that number, the finer the yarn (a 40/2s would be *much* finer than a 16/2) I think #10 is used on cords and threads for heavier work (like stitching canvas and leather) and refers to weight resistence (so a #10 would be heavier and stronger than a #6.) 10 ounce may be the same thing, but I'm not sure. I think a lot of your confusion comes from the fact that you're using threads from various sources, that are actually made for other purposes. Deborah _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Merouda of Bornover Date: Mon, 01 Mar 1999 15:34:20 -0800 Subject: Re: H-COST: Proud of Merouda - -Poster: Merouda of Bornover > I don't know if Merouda will let everyone else know, but we can be > quite proud of her. She won the Twelfth Night An Tir Costumer's Guild > costume competition for her experience level! I am so thankful that you posted this. I woke up this morning and was sure I hadn't heard correctly. Your kind words made my year. I would have liked to attend Kingdom A&S but alas, it just wasn't in the cards so we could have chatted. Agape, Merouda - -- Cynthia Long Merouda of Bornover Barony of Madrone Kingdom of An Tir _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: starsinger@webtv.net (theresa sorrell) Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 16:43:18 -0700 (MST) Subject: H-COST: Re: Little Corset Book - -Poster: starsinger@webtv.net (theresa sorrell) I purchased mine at Hedgehog Handworks. Hedgehog Handworks P.O.Box 45384 Westchester, CA 90045 1-888-670-6040 (tollfree) Her catalog is $5.00 refundable and she has a large collection of books and almost anything to do with needlework supplies. She also list Dunlevy's Dress In Ireland for $59.95 The book is about 4" by 6" and covers corsets in general from 1700 through 1890. With a single size graph pattern of each corset and instructions on making it. Also includes corset cover and drawers pattern, I think a good overview, but nothing fantastic. More for theater, I think. Starsinger _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ End of h-costume-digest V4 #181 ******************************* _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME-DIGEST From ???@??? Tue Mar 02 10:34:43 1999 Received: from mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE (mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE [130.149.4.16]) by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id DAA21275 for ; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 03:51:03 +0100 (MET) Received: from mail.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.15]) by mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10HfGt-0007IR-00; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 03:50:59 +0100 Received: from coal.bg.tu-berlin.de by mail.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Tue, 2 Mar 1999 03:50:48 +0100 Received: from mail.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.15]) by mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10HfGb-0007IJ-00; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 03:50:41 +0100 Received: from tubkom.prz.tu-berlin.de by mail.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Tue, 2 Mar 1999 03:50:29 +0100 Received: from mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE (mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE [130.149.4.16]) by tubkom.prz.tu-berlin.de (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id DAA20867 for ; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 03:49:16 +0100 (MEZ) Received: from mail.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.15]) by mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10HfGI-0007Hy-00; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 03:50:22 +0100 Received: from server.indra.com by mail.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Tue, 2 Mar 1999 03:50:16 +0100 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.8.5/) with ESMTP id UAA10433; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 20:01:45 -0700 (MST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id TAA18556 for h-costume-digest-outgoing; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 19:48:54 -0700 (MST) Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 19:48:54 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199903020248.TAA18556@indra.com> From: owner-h-costume-digest@indra.com To: h-costume-digest@indra.com Subject: h-costume-digest V4 #182 Reply-To: h-costume-digest@indra.com Errors-To: owner-h-costume-digest@indra.com Precedence: bulk h-costume-digest Monday, 1 March 1999 Volume 04 : Number 182 In this issue: Re: H-COST: foot forms Re: H-COST: Riding astride, 1850's re: H-COST: Riding astride, 1850's H-COST: books Re: H-COST: Review of Corset Book? Re: H-COST: Review of Corset Book? H-COST: online corset info H-COST: Discount costuming book Re: H-COST: online corset info Re: H-COST: online corset info Re: H-COST: Proud of Merouda Re: H-COST: Re:Dress form confusion! RE: H-COST: Proud of Merouda Re: H-COST: Re:Riding astride ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Kathryn L. Herb" Date: Mon, 01 Mar 1999 19:10:20 EST Subject: Re: H-COST: foot forms - -Poster: "Kathryn L. Herb" Marie, That's an excellent idea! Trouble is that my customers all live at least one state away and I rely on their accurate measurements. (So far, so good.) I'll try it when I get my hands on some flesh, though! Or maybe I can convince them to do the sock-and-duct-tape part themselves. Kay kayherb@juno.com On Mon, 1 Mar 1999 08:55:55 -0600 (CST) Marie Schulte writes: > >-Poster: Marie Schulte > >> -Poster: "Kathryn L. Herb" >> >> And to expand on your inquiry, does anyone know where I can get foot >> forms with the lower leg attached? I'm doing custom woolen hose >(woven > > >Kay- > >A friend of mine who makes shoes makes individual lasts of a person's >feet >by doing a version of the duct tape/t-shirt pattern. He uses a sock. >After taping it up and cutting it off the person, he tapes it back >into a >'foot-lower leg form' and fills it with the aerosol foam insulation. >Maybe that will work for you. > > > _________________________________________________________________ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME > ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Emma Elizabeth Lehman <00217146@bigred.unl.edu> Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 18:19:36 -0600 (CST) Subject: Re: H-COST: Riding astride, 1850's - -Poster: Emma Elizabeth Lehman <00217146@bigred.unl.edu> Well, I found it, and, typically, it was neither as old nor as reliable source as I'd hoped. The photograph is on p. 131 of Penny Storm's _Functions of Dress_, the caption reads "Early 20th century bifrucated skirt (Library of Congress)" Aaah, well. I *thought* I had something remotely helpful. Emma On Mon, 1 Mar 1999, Emma Elizabeth Lehman wrote: > > I have seen a beautiful split skirt much like you discribe in one of my > books...unfortunately, I'm neither sure which one nor what the date was. > I'll take a look when I get home. > > On Mon, 1 Mar 1999, Lynn Downward wrote: > > > I don't ride and this is just a guess: But during my childhood, Annie > > Oaklie and Dale Evans in the movies (yes I know, Hollywood) used to wear a > > coulotte-style skirt to ride in, and it seems to me there were buttons on > > either leg so there could be a flap sort of thing to close the front (and > > back?) once the woman was finished riding. This is also seen in many of the > > parades where women are riding in Western and California-Spanish styles > > even now. I'm not saying that this idea is period for the 1850's, but it > > seems to me to be more possible/appropriate for a woman than jeans, > > although I'm sure lots of women crossing the country would have gone for > > the simple idea of cutting down her husband's trousers to wear out in the > > badlands, changing once a fort or town came into view. BTW, doesn't > > Folkwears have a pattern like this? > > > > LynnD > > trusting to Hollywood just this once _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Margo Anderson Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 16:08:46 -0800 (PST) Subject: re: H-COST: Riding astride, 1850's - -Poster: Margo Anderson > >Meanwhile, do you know about the Past Patterns symposium in Columbia next >week? It may be rather late to apply, but it is devoted to making Gold Rush >era costumes. I have the application packet packet, and I'm trying to work out a child care solution. I hope to see you there! Margo _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Lynn Meyer Date: Mon, 01 Mar 1999 16:24:31 -0800 Subject: H-COST: books - -Poster: Lynn Meyer http://www.greenduck.com for Green Duck Designs. Could anyone give me a title and/or author for Alcega? I'm new on this list, and missed the initial discussion. I know basically what Alcega covers, from bits and pieces I've heard before, but info on what actual modern book(s) to look for would be handy. Thanks! Halima (Lynn) >From: Finafyr@aol.com >Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 12:31:20 EST >Subject: Re: H-COST: Where To Purchase Corset Book? > >Try Amazon.uk.com I got ther Little corset book last month form them...if I >didn't get the address right you can access them through amazon.com....Also >check with Green Duck (sorry I know they are on the web but don't know the >address right now) because I saw the book at an event we had called Ursulmas >last month also. >YIS >Fionnbharr > _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Betsy Delaney Date: Mon, 01 Mar 1999 19:36:49 -0500 Subject: Re: H-COST: Review of Corset Book? - -Poster: Betsy Delaney I was waiting for that.... 8-) (No, Carol, I still haven't found my copy!) Corsets and Crinolines includes info from quite a number of different periods, and lots of detailed info besides. It's available from Dover Books (I think - I just moved it downstairs in the Great Office Migration), and really isn't all that much more expensive. It's been on my "must own" list for quite some time. Carol just beat me to it (not that I'm not grateful.....) About the Duct Tape Double thread, there's a great site available with lots of detailed instructions on how to do it, at: http://www.leanna.com/DuctTapeDouble/ I've been through four of them so far. (I keep changing size, and it's just easier to toss the old one out.) I remember hearing the suggestion, but haven't tried it yet, that you should put on whatever support garments you plan to use and then make the double - I could have one for each period I wanted to do (if I had the right corsets... 8-). Best, when doing one of these, to wear your most supportive bra, if you're going for the every-day model, so you can build in appropriate support. I love mine, especially since I'm much more likely to drape than flat pattern my costumes. - -betsy aquazoo@patriot.net wrote: > > -Poster: > > Jill also asked about the Little Corset Book, > >While on the subject...can anyone provide me with a review of this > >book? It looks like it may be helpful, I have not been able to get much > >information on it. > > I looked at it on the shelf at G Street Fabrics, and my reaction was > to cringe! The "little" books seem to be written from a theatrical > standpoint. If you're looking to make stays or corsets that are > historically accurate, this isn't the book to get! The techniques don't > look like they'll be sturdy compared to period techniques, and some of > the boning placement is incorrect and could also be uncomfortable. > > _Corsets and Crinolines_ is the book to buy. Yes, it's more > expensive, but you definitely get what you pay for. Hunnisett's costume > books also have decent corset information, and she's actually writing for > theatrical costumers! > > A friend bought the little corset book. I gave her a copy of > _Corsets & Crinolines_ with the understanding that she burn the little > corset book in a little bonfire. :) > > -Carol Kocian - -- Betsy R. Delaney Webmistress at large ************************************************************************ betsy@hawkeswood.com or betsy@ability.net http://www.hawkeswood.com/, home of Hawkeswood Designs and http://www.Costume-Con.org/, home of Costume-ConNections (If you still have betsy@access.digex.net, change my address *NOW*!) ************************************************************************ _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Anah Date: Mon, 01 Mar 1999 19:48:55 -0500 Subject: Re: H-COST: Review of Corset Book? - -Poster: Anah I paid $25 for mine. _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: WICKHAM Raymond Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 11:50:29 +1100 Subject: H-COST: online corset info - -Poster: WICKHAM Raymond If you are going to make a corset Check out this site Corset info historical http://www.magiccorsets.com/history Corset info historical 2 http://www.corsetry.com online corset pattern generator http://www.dnaco.net/~aleed/corsets/custompat/ This may help Ray _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Lavolta Press Date: Mon, 01 Mar 1999 17:12:34 -0800 Subject: H-COST: Discount costuming book - -Poster: Lavolta Press We found in our warehouse 10 copies of the first edition of _After a Fashion: How to Reproduce, Restore, and Wear Vintage Styles_. This book covers making historic costumes from Middle Ages to Art Deco, and buying, cleaning, mending, and otherwise dealing with vintage clothes from Victorian to Art Deco. Both men's and women's clothes are discussed. Further information is on our web site: http://www.best.com/~lavolta/index.htm Because a second edition has been published, we are selling these 10 copies (hopefully there will be no more) at a discount price of $21 (plus sales tax for California residents), plus $4 shipping. If you would like to buy one, please e-mail to reserve it and pay within 1 week (there is an order form on our web site you can use). Please, don't reserve a copy unless you will pay for it within the stated time period. Thanks for your time, Fran Grimble _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Margo Anderson Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 17:36:50 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: H-COST: online corset info - -Poster: Margo Anderson > >This may help > Well, no, not really. the first URL came up "Not found" and the next one took me to Tigerx.com. A search of that page got me back to the corsetry.com URL, but when I clicked on it, it took me back to the tigerx home page. Margo _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Emma Elizabeth Lehman <00217146@bigred.unl.edu> Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 19:50:01 -0600 (CST) Subject: Re: H-COST: online corset info - -Poster: Emma Elizabeth Lehman <00217146@bigred.unl.edu> > >This may help > > > Well, no, not really. the first URL came up "Not found" and the next one > took me to Tigerx.com. A search of that page got me back to the > corsetry.com URL, but when I clicked on it, it took me back to the tigerx > home page. The first one should have been http://www.magiccorsets.com/corhist.htm _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Carol J. Bell Cannon" Date: Mon, 01 Mar 1999 18:13:01 -0800 Subject: Re: H-COST: Proud of Merouda - -Poster: "Carol J. Bell Cannon" At 07:35 AM 3/1/99 +0000, you wrote: > >-Poster: kat@grendal.rain.com > >I don't know if Merouda will let everyone else know, but we can be >quite proud of her. She won the Twelfth Night An Tir Costumer's Guild >costume competition for her experience level! Thank you, Kat, for sharing this wonderful news. Congratulations, Merouda. Gra/inne _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Carol J. Bell Cannon" Date: Mon, 01 Mar 1999 18:34:58 -0800 Subject: Re: H-COST: Re:Dress form confusion! - -Poster: "Carol J. Bell Cannon" At 01:52 PM 3/1/99 -0500, you wrote: > >-Poster: Anah >now, I know it seems like it's too much bother, but I REALLY like mine. >I own 2 of them, and am planning to get another. > >AND, the nice thing about the foamies...is that you CAN corset them. Please write me privately as to what brands, and any other pertinent info, if you would, and thank you in advance! Carol Cannon _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Cathy Harding" Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 18:43:04 -0800 Subject: RE: H-COST: Proud of Merouda - -Poster: "Cathy Harding" Hey kat, I haven't got any kind of official notification of the results (the disclaimer is that I haven't checked the crier address yet). Maeve > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-h-costume@indra.com [mailto:owner-h-costume@indra.com]On > Behalf Of kat@grendal.rain.com > Sent: Sunday, February 28, 1999 11:36 PM > To: h-costume@indra.com > Subject: H-COST: Proud of Merouda > > > > -Poster: kat@grendal.rain.com > > I don't know if Merouda will let everyone else know, but we can be > quite proud of her. She won the Twelfth Night An Tir Costumer's Guild > costume competition for her experience level! > > She was up against a large number of people with some stiff > competition. Her garment was very well made and well documented (as > well as looking very nice on her!) We (the judges for the contest) > were quite impressed with her. > > > Kat > > Kat(June Russell) > kat@grendal.rain.com > Heu! Tintinnuntius meus Sonat! > _________________________________________________________________ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME > _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Carol J. Bell Cannon" Date: Mon, 01 Mar 1999 18:49:31 -0800 Subject: Re: H-COST: Re:Riding astride - -Poster: "Carol J. Bell Cannon" At 02:39 PM 2/26/99 +0100, you wrote: For a western saddle the above mentioned would be best as the saddle is big and any other kind of skirt would get hooked up on all corners. When I was much younger [think pre- & teen years and much crazier, I did use a Western saddle and both very wide split skirts and full circle skirts. I was careful getting on and off, but had no problems. As most horses that take part in parades are very calm, it should be no problem for them to be covered in a large skirt, partially at least ;-). Greetings, Diana Diana doesn't say so, but my assumption is that the horses being used by ladies in skirts are going to be slowly and gently accustomed to the idea of having yards of fabric 'thrown over' them, simulating mounting and dismounting, and also ridden with such, so that they get used to the idea of all that fabric flapping about as they move...inc. in high winds, just in case. Good luck to all. It was fun. Carol _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ End of h-costume-digest V4 #182 ******************************* _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME-DIGEST From ???@??? Tue Mar 02 13:46:32 1999 Received: from mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE (mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE [130.149.4.16]) by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA26088 for ; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 13:38:58 +0100 (MET) Received: from mail.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.15]) by mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10HoRs-0003Kx-00; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 13:38:56 +0100 Received: from coal.bg.tu-berlin.de by mail.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Tue, 2 Mar 1999 13:38:43 +0100 Received: from mail.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.15]) by mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10HoRa-0003K3-00; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 13:38:38 +0100 Received: from tubkom.prz.tu-berlin.de by mail.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Tue, 2 Mar 1999 13:38:21 +0100 Received: from mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE (mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE [130.149.4.16]) by tubkom.prz.tu-berlin.de (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA24664 for ; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 13:37:07 +0100 (MEZ) Received: from mail.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.15]) by mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10HoRD-0003JZ-00; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 13:38:16 +0100 Received: from server.indra.com by mail.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Tue, 2 Mar 1999 13:37:55 +0100 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.8.5/) with ESMTP id FAA03159; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 05:48:17 -0700 (MST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id FAA00579 for h-costume-digest-outgoing; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 05:35:07 -0700 (MST) Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 05:35:07 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199903021235.FAA00579@indra.com> From: owner-h-costume-digest@indra.com To: h-costume-digest@indra.com Subject: h-costume-digest V4 #183 Reply-To: h-costume-digest@indra.com Errors-To: owner-h-costume-digest@indra.com Precedence: bulk h-costume-digest Tuesday, 2 March 1999 Volume 04 : Number 183 In this issue: Re: H-COST: books Re: H-COST: online corset info Re: H-COST: online corset info Re: H-COST: books H-COST: unsuscribe me Re: H-COST: Re:Dress form confusion! H-COST: re "Uniquely You" form Re: H-COST: Re:Dress form confusion! Re: H-COST: books H-COST: Medieval Leather Research eGroup created H-COST: SCA Garb list functioning? H-COST: Riding astride, 1850's Re: H-COST: Riding astride, 1850's H-COST: Riding astride Re: H-COST: Riding astride, 1850's ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Lady Eleanor Date: Mon, 01 Mar 1999 18:50:09 -0800 Subject: Re: H-COST: books - -Poster: Lady Eleanor According to Amazon.com it's: Tailor's pattern book, 1589 : By: Juan de Alcega It is published by Dover, I believe...however, the bad news is that it's out of print and out of stock. The good news is...they are looking for a copy! :-) The other bad news is that I have had this on my search list at ABE for more than 2 years, and they have yet to find a copy for me. :-( Good luck! With fingers crossed, Eleanor Lynn Meyer wrote: > > -Poster: Lynn Meyer > > http://www.greenduck.com for Green Duck Designs. > > Could anyone give me a title and/or author for Alcega? I'm new on > this list, and missed the initial discussion. I know basically > what Alcega covers, from bits and pieces I've heard before, but > info on what actual modern book(s) to look for would be handy. > > Thanks! > Halima (Lynn) > > >From: Finafyr@aol.com > >Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 12:31:20 EST > >Subject: Re: H-COST: Where To Purchase Corset Book? > > > >Try Amazon.uk.com I got ther Little corset book last month form them...if I > >didn't get the address right you can access them through amazon.com....Also > >check with Green Duck (sorry I know they are on the web but don't know the > >address right now) because I saw the book at an event we had called Ursulmas > >last month also. > >YIS > >Fionnbharr > > > _________________________________________________________________ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Anah Date: Mon, 01 Mar 1999 21:52:22 -0500 Subject: Re: H-COST: online corset info - -Poster: Anah WICKHAM Raymond wrote: > > -Poster: WICKHAM Raymond > > If you are going to make a corset > Check out this site > Corset info historical http://www.magiccorsets.com/history gives you a 404 error > Corset info historical 2 http://www.corsetry.com takes you to http://www.tigerx.com/ > online corset pattern generator > http://www.dnaco.net/~aleed/corsets/custompat/ ^^^^^^^^^^ that works... _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Lady Eleanor Date: Mon, 01 Mar 1999 18:54:28 -0800 Subject: Re: H-COST: online corset info - -Poster: Lady Eleanor Remove the word "history" and it works. :-) Eleanor Anah wrote: > > -Poster: Anah > > WICKHAM Raymond wrote: > > > > -Poster: WICKHAM Raymond > > > > If you are going to make a corset > > Check out this site > > Corset info historical http://www.magiccorsets.com/history > > gives you a 404 error > > > Corset info historical 2 http://www.corsetry.com > > takes you to http://www.tigerx.com/ > > > online corset pattern generator > > http://www.dnaco.net/~aleed/corsets/custompat/ > > ^^^^^^^^^^ that works... > _________________________________________________________________ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: kat@grendal.rain.com Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 19:12:18 +0000 Subject: Re: H-COST: books - -Poster: kat@grendal.rain.com > According to Amazon.com it's: > > Tailor's pattern book, 1589 : By: Juan de Alcega > > It is published by Dover, I believe...however, the bad news > is that it's out of print and out of stock. The good news > is...they are looking for a copy! :-) The other bad news > is that I have had this on my search list at ABE for more > than 2 years, and they have yet to find a copy for me. :-( The publisher is not Dover, but Ruth Bean. I know of publishing companies who are trying to get the rights to republish it, but have run into problems. Ruth Bean has no intentions of republishing it, however. Kat Kat(June Russell) kat@grendal.rain.com Heu! Tintinnuntius meus Sonat! _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Highlanders Mistress" Date: Tue, 02 Mar 1999 04:04:06 -0000 Subject: H-COST: unsuscribe me - -Poster: "Highlanders Mistress" can someone unsuscribe me? Join 18 million Eudora users by signing up for a free Eudora Web-Mail account at http://www.eudoramail.com _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Marionetta@aol.com Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 23:03:50 EST Subject: Re: H-COST: Re:Dress form confusion! - -Poster: Marionetta@aol.com The uniquely you is the one with the canvass cover that you tailor to fit your body. Do not be afraid of the torpedo shaped breasts on it! Once the cover is in place those puppies squish down (or not) to fit your body. I've had mine for quite some time and love it, I can put any of my corsets on it and it expands back to it's old shape when uncorested - just like me! You may need help with the tailoring of the dress form cover. It's probably wise to NOT cut the seam allowances on the cover once you've adjusted it, our bodies have a way of chancing shape on us...and if the cover is too small you can always add fabric to it to expand it, just be sure that you fall within some of the dimensions of the uncompressed foam. (The package should say what it's measurement ranges are.) Good luck! Cheers, Loren Dearborn marionetta@aol.com _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: ArcadiaCB@aol.com Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 23:46:35 EST Subject: H-COST: re "Uniquely You" form - -Poster: ArcadiaCB@aol.com Andrea, I have been pleased with the form--it does what I really wanted--for the bosom to shift when you put stays or corset on it. It's very lightweight and the stand adjusts so easy to store when not in use. It's form formed, comes with Madonna pointy breasts which go into shape when you fit your form cover to your own size (it comes "generally" sized for your height and size, but you put on, zip, then pin and stitch the cover to fit you. The only problem I have with it after 8 years, is that I have gained weight and it hasn't! (It was my gift to me when I lost the weight originally) Charlene _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Lady Eleanor Date: Mon, 01 Mar 1999 21:13:08 -0800 Subject: Re: H-COST: Re:Dress form confusion! - -Poster: Lady Eleanor Thanks! That's great information. I'm gradually nearing making some decisions...with all the great help I've been receiving. :-) Eleanor Marionetta@aol.com wrote: > > -Poster: Marionetta@aol.com > > The uniquely you is the one with the canvass cover that you tailor to fit your > body. Do not be afraid of the torpedo shaped breasts on it! Once the cover > is in place those puppies squish down (or not) to fit your body. I've had > mine for quite some time and love it, I can put any of my corsets on it and it > expands back to it's old shape when uncorested - just like me! You may need > help with the tailoring of the dress form cover. It's probably wise to NOT > cut the seam allowances on the cover once you've adjusted it, our bodies have > a way of chancing shape on us...and if the cover is too small you can always > add fabric to it to expand it, just be sure that you fall within some of the > dimensions of the uncompressed foam. (The package should say what it's > measurement ranges are.) Good luck! > > Cheers, > > Loren Dearborn > marionetta@aol.com > _________________________________________________________________ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Lady Eleanor Date: Mon, 01 Mar 1999 21:15:51 -0800 Subject: Re: H-COST: books - -Poster: Lady Eleanor Thanks for the correction! I knew I wasn't right on the money, there. kat@grendal.rain.com wrote: > > -Poster: kat@grendal.rain.com > > The publisher is not Dover, but Ruth Bean. I know of publishing > companies who are trying to get the rights to republish it, but have > run into problems. Ruth Bean has no intentions of republishing it, > however. > > Kat How very odd! Why ever not??? Any ideas? What a shame for those of us who haven't got a copy already. :-< (Big pouty face!) Eleanor > > Kat(June Russell) > kat@grendal.rain.com > Heu! Tintinnuntius meus Sonat! > _________________________________________________________________ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Gregory Stapleton" Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 00:28:13 -0500 Subject: H-COST: Medieval Leather Research eGroup created - -Poster: "Gregory Stapleton" Greetings, One and All, Recently an eGroup has been created for the discussion of Medieval Leather Research. The uses, methods of production, decoration, etc. as well as how-to-do-it today in an appropriate period manner, are just some of the welcomed topics for discussion. If you are interested: Users can send an e-mail to medieval-leather-subscribe@egroups.com Thank you, Gregory Stapleton / Gawain Kilgore _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: lilinah@grin.net Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 21:40:30 -0800 (PST) Subject: H-COST: SCA Garb list functioning? - -Poster: lilinah@grin.net A while back folks were talking about the SCA garb list, but it seemed to be having some problems. Then i noticed a fleeting mention to the garb list in a recent post. So i gather it is functioning. Could someone please send me info how how to subscribe? Thanks, Lilinah _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Melanie Wilson Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 01:28:01 -0500 Subject: H-COST: Riding astride, 1850's - -Poster: Melanie Wilson >Thanks, Melanie. that's exactly the kind of information I was hoping fo= r. If you need more let me know, all my books on side saddle are definatly English :). But from the practical side or on what to wear as an English side saddle rider I might be able to offer something ! Mel _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Julie Adams Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 22:41:55 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: H-COST: Riding astride, 1850's - -Poster: Julie Adams >-Poster: " Firefly" > >The following suuggestion is NOT period authentic, since nearly all the >women would have been riding side saddle. Unless you were really poor and riding a slow draft animal, but even then, most women didn't. There are accounts of young girls riding in their normal skirts however in the mid-19th c. >You could make a period styled riding habit, splitting the skirt. There are patterns for period riding habits available with a bit of research if one really wanted to go into it. They did wear trousers underneath it. I would suggest contacting the Sidesaddle Club of America which may have some patterns or suggestions available. Women of the 1850s did not ride astride in split skirts like Annie Oakley. That was later in the century and became popular with the "Western Girl" fad brought about by dime novels and Wild West shows. >though I would highly suggest using starched petticoats rather than hoop >skirts (anyways, riding habits weren't worn with hoops even side >saddle)--hoops could inspire interesting spectator perspectives on your >re-enactment!!! Especially since people just didn't ride with hoops anyway. >Heaven forbid if anyone should get unduly inspired and try side saddle--I >understand it's quite dangerous if you aren't trained & experienced in the >art! Not really. A well-fitted side-saddle with a leaping horn is quite a secure ride. Even the antique one I had with no leaping horn, but with the old-style backrest was not that precarious of a ride. >Most women proba=bly would have been either walking or riding in carts. >They can probably wear regular day clothes of the era (no split skirts). Yup. Julie Adams _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Melanie Wilson Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 02:39:12 -0500 Subject: H-COST: Riding astride - -Poster: Melanie Wilson > Diana doesn't say so, but my assumption is that the horses being used by ladies in skirts are going to be slowly and gently accustomed to the idea of having yards of fabric 'thrown over' them, simulating mountin= g and dismounting, and also ridden with such, so that they get used to the idea of all that fabric flapping about as they move...inc. in high winds,= just in case. Most horses, at least here (UK) don't bother at all, as they are used to being ruged up. The fabric should be heavy anyway so as not to fly around= ------------------------------ From: " Firefly" Date: Tue, 02 Mar 1999 12:34:33 -0000 Subject: Re: H-COST: Riding astride, 1850's - -Poster: " Firefly" Dear Julie, I recently attended a riding habit presentation at the DC Costume Symposium. The presenter was a professional costume historian from the Williamsburg Foundation--unfortunately, I lent my proceedings to a friend Sunday and can't cite the presenter's name. Anyways, her main points were that women almost all rode side saddle (if they rode at all). The saddle also changed in the mid 1800s, making it somewhat safer for the women riding (like the old saddle you own, which is probably very valuable, since the presenter did mention that extant saddles like this are rare). If a woman could afford it, she wore a riding habit, which could also be worn for a variety of other casual occupations. The tone of your reply leads me to believe that you wrote out of a feeling of disagreement, although indeed, you affirmed every point I made. I write this because I wanted to correct any impression I've made... As I wrote, the split skirt was not period-appropriate (nor intended to be). My suggestion is to come up with an (a-historical) adaptation of the correct period attire (riding habit) to something that would allow a modestly gracious straddling of a horse and the maximum possible sustainment of an illusion of what a woman would have possibly worn at that time. I think, if carefully sewn, a split could be well-hidden under period-appropriate overskirt decorations. I am in no disagreement about the fact that trained side saddle riders can ride safely. My only point was that it can be dangerous for the untrained. This was also a significant point at the academic presentation I attended. Anyways, I didn't write to make you or anyone else on the list upset (after all, if you read what I wrote, we are pretty much in agreement on all issues). I was just writing out of inspiration to come up with a solution to solve a rather unusual costuming problem (with a couple of a-historical limitations). I am new on this forum... I just hope this contribution isn't unwelcome. HotBot - Search smarter. http://www.hotbot.com _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ End of h-costume-digest V4 #183 ******************************* _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME-DIGEST From ???@??? Tue Mar 02 16:21:28 1999 Received: from mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE (mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE [130.149.4.16]) by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA28033 for ; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 16:18:07 +0100 (MET) Received: from mail.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.15]) by mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10Hqvu-0000KB-00; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 16:18:06 +0100 Received: from coal.bg.tu-berlin.de by mail.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Tue, 2 Mar 1999 16:17:44 +0100 Received: from mail.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.15]) by mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10HqvS-0000Jf-00; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 16:17:38 +0100 Received: from tubkom.prz.tu-berlin.de by mail.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Tue, 2 Mar 1999 16:17:22 +0100 Received: from mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE (mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE [130.149.4.16]) by tubkom.prz.tu-berlin.de (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA26351 for ; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 16:16:05 +0100 (MEZ) Received: from mail.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.15]) by mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10Hqv5-0000Id-00; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 16:17:15 +0100 Received: from server.indra.com by mail.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Tue, 2 Mar 1999 16:16:09 +0100 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.8.5/) with ESMTP id IAA18181; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 08:27:57 -0700 (MST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id IAA15255 for h-costume-digest-outgoing; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 08:14:39 -0700 (MST) Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 08:14:39 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199903021514.IAA15255@indra.com> From: owner-h-costume-digest@indra.com To: h-costume-digest@indra.com Subject: h-costume-digest V4 #184 Reply-To: h-costume-digest@indra.com Errors-To: owner-h-costume-digest@indra.com Precedence: bulk h-costume-digest Tuesday, 2 March 1999 Volume 04 : Number 184 In this issue: re: H-COST: fishermen H-COST: OOP Alcega re: H-COST: fishermen Re: H-COST: Re:Dress form confusion! Re: H-COST: Re:Dress form confusion! H-COST: Uniquely You...? Re: H-COST: Re:Dress form confusion! Re: H-COST: threads Re: H-COST: Re:Dress form confusion! H-COST: Riding astride, 1850's H-COST: More about knitting Re: H-COST: OOP Alcega Re: H-COST: Re:Dress form confusion! Re: H-COST: Re:Dress form confusion! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "David W. Rickman" Date: Tue, 2 Mar 99 8:16:44 EST Subject: re: H-COST: fishermen - -Poster: "David W. Rickman" Hello, You may want to look into the history of British "Guernsey frocks," knitted pullovers which, I believe, date at least to the early 19th century. The British do not call these garments "sweaters" but pullovers, frocks and cardigans. I don't have a copy at hand, but I "The Workwoman's Guide" (1830's) does have a section on knitting and may mention them. However, now that I think of it, in "Silver and Gold" a book about Gold Rush-era daguerreotypes published by the Oakland Museum, there is a photo of a man wearing a wildly patterned sweater while working his claim. That would be about 1850. David Rickman "Deborah Pulliam" Wrote: | | | -Poster: pulliam@acadia.net (Deborah Pulliam) | | <> | | Fisherman's sweaters are strictly a very late | nineteenth/twentieth century | invention. | | Deborah | | | | __________________________________________________________ | _______ | To leave this mailing list, send mail to | majordomo@indra.com | with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME | _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Kristin Page Date: Mon, 01 Mar 1999 09:47:52 Subject: H-COST: OOP Alcega - -Poster: Kristin Page If anyone has a copy of the ORIGINAL Alcega (or a copy of a copy of a copy of the original), and there's sufficient interest in doing the work to self-publish, that's an option. The original is public domain so copyright isn't a problem (translation might be -- how much text is there?). I've self-publishing for a fast copy/printer for more than ten years and would be willing to help on such a project. Kristin _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Kristin Page Date: Mon, 01 Mar 1999 10:03:33 Subject: re: H-COST: fishermen - -Poster: Kristin Page I can't give a citation but someone else must have seen it -- one of the recent Aran (??Arran) sweater pattern books gives a history stating that the style was invented during the 19th century to help provide employment in the islands. The inventor's name was given but I don't remember more than that. Kristin At 08:16 AM 3/2/99 EST, you wrote: > >-Poster: "David W. Rickman" > >Hello, > >You may want to look into the history of British "Guernsey frocks," knitted >pullovers which, I believe, date at least to the early 19th century. The >British do not call these garments "sweaters" but pullovers, frocks and >cardigans. I don't have a copy at hand, but I "The Workwoman's Guide" >(1830's) does have a section on knitting and may mention them. However, now >that I think of it, in "Silver and Gold" a book about Gold Rush-era >daguerreotypes published by the Oakland Museum, there is a photo of a man >wearing a wildly patterned sweater while working his claim. That would be >about 1850. > >David Rickman > > >"Deborah Pulliam" Wrote: >| >| >| -Poster: pulliam@acadia.net (Deborah Pulliam) >| >| <| I've never seen >| evidence of their existance, but then I haven't looked >| that hard. >> >| >| Fisherman's sweaters are strictly a very late >| nineteenth/twentieth century >| invention. >| >| Deborah >| >| >| >| __________________________________________________________ >| _______ >| To leave this mailing list, send mail to >| majordomo@indra.com >| with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME >| > _________________________________________________________________ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME > > _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Michel McCabe Date: Tue, 02 Mar 1999 08:54:21 -0500 Subject: Re: H-COST: Re:Dress form confusion! - -Poster: Michel McCabe I have been researching the Fabulous Fit. Which is a basic form that includes 18 pieces of specially shaped foam that allows you to "adjust" the form to your shape. The adjusted form is then covered with a beige top. I found a web page that seems to be just under construction that answers several questions and have found that it comes in 4 basic sizes - each includes the foam and a cover. The cost varies depending on which base you choose and it is still well in line with the cost of those I have seen in the stores - Under $200 for the "home/wooden base", even "professional/cast iron base" is under $300. The toher thing I like so far is that they have assured me the height form shoulder to floor is adjustable which will make hemming a LOT easier - I make a lot of floor length skirts and dress and capes. The local fabric store had one of those where they send you a cover that more or less matches your shape - I am pretty sure the brand name was "Uniquely Yours" but since I needed some ability to change the size, that would not work unless I bought a bunch of extra covers. I do have to agree with you about the dial-a-shapes, they are so flimsy - and I am just entirely too rough on my possessions so while the $600-1100 industrial models are weigh out of my budget, this one seems to be answering most of my concerns. The other thing that caught my attention was that you can buy the body forms separately so if you only need one base if you happen to the type who only works on one project at a time. Since I have to custom fit a lot my DH shirts, this is going to be a big plus. I am also hoping they will sell additioal foam pads separately so that make even more adjustment. I think I will try to make the duct tape version for arms and legs so I can try to get better fitting garments. I am still hoping someone will jump in and mention if they have used the Fabulous Fit and how they liked it. The URL was: http://www.craftwolf.com/FiberArt/fabfit/ No affiliation except the site owner is an "email friend". Micki Michel McCabe mailto:micki@connext.net _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Michel McCabe Date: Tue, 02 Mar 1999 08:57:12 -0500 Subject: Re: H-COST: Re:Dress form confusion! - -Poster: Michel McCabe >bigger than yourself. AND you need to coax the foam to conform in >places. AND it would be best to have an extra set of hands. one for >zipping, and another for coaxing and pulling... > >now, I know it seems like it's too much bother, but I REALLY like mine. >I own 2 of them, and am planning to get another. > Are you using the Uniquely Yours or Fabulous Fit ?? _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Teddy Date: Tue, 02 Mar 1999 14:06:19 +0000 (GMT) Subject: H-COST: Uniquely You...? - -Poster: Teddy > The uniquely you is the one with the canvass cover that you tailor > to fit your body. Do not be afraid of the torpedo shaped breasts > on it! Once the cover is in place those puppies squish down (or > not) to fit your body. These sound great but I have two questions... 1) Anyone know of a UK outlet that sells them? 2) Is there a mens one available? Thanks Teddy _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Michel McCabe Date: Tue, 02 Mar 1999 09:08:14 -0500 Subject: Re: H-COST: Re:Dress form confusion! - -Poster: Michel McCabe >> to make one in a soft, corset-able foam? If so, can anyone steer me to a >> source? > >Well...here I can be of help here. Here are two > > >http://www.monstermakers.com/ > >I would recommend foamed latex. That is what they use in It looks like the materials cost would be well over the cost of either the Uniquely You or Fabulous Fit - heck by the time you figure in the time and logistics, even the industrial models are not out of reach cost wise. _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Michel McCabe Date: Tue, 02 Mar 1999 09:14:26 -0500 Subject: Re: H-COST: threads - -Poster: Michel McCabe ><< I mean I have heard terms like "#10", > - "10 ounce" and "35/2" used to describe various threads.>> > > >The second number refers to the number of plies, so a 16/1 is a singles >(*not* single ply!), and a 16/4 would be four times as heavy as the first. >The first number refers to the weight of the first (usually yards per >pound), so the larger that number, the finer the yarn (a 40/2s would be >*much* finer than a 16/2) > Just a little note to the above, the biggest problem is there is no standard although there are, at best guidlines as Deb described above. And to make it even more confusing, Canadian and Europeons change the order so that the number of plies is given first, the US 16/4 would be written 4/16 _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Michel McCabe Date: Tue, 02 Mar 1999 09:22:17 -0500 Subject: Re: H-COST: Re:Dress form confusion! - -Poster: Michel McCabe >>AND, the nice thing about the foamies...is that you CAN corset them. > Please write me privately as to what brands, and any other Could we keep this on the list? Or would the same people who are writing to Carol also copy me - I am really trying to make a decision and welcome ANY input or experience./ TIA Micki _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Melanie Wilson Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 09:28:58 -0500 Subject: H-COST: Riding astride, 1850's - -Poster: Melanie Wilson >I am in no disagreement about the fact that trained side saddle riders c= an ride safely. My only point was that it can be dangerous for the untraine= d. This was also a significant point at the academic presentation I attende= d. Not so much dangerous for the rider as the horse :), back problems from poor side saddle riding are common as are back injuries from excessive aside riding , on horses not fittened for this purpose(that is the horses= back). I feel more secure aside that astride & have jumped hunted etc this way. I found a 1860 etiquette book that mentions the habit & other dress one needs , I can let you know the details if you want Mel _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: " Firefly" Date: Tue, 02 Mar 1999 14:38:43 -0000 Subject: H-COST: More about knitting - -Poster: " Firefly" Okay, I read the inquiry about knitted sweaters with mild interest--and deleted the original inquiry because I had no idea of an answer. I don't recall any paintings of folk in sweaters (though I have seen knit caps, stockings in a number of pictures). Then I went to bed an started browsing my new toy--a fabulous book I got last month at the V&A called Historical Fashion in Detail: The 17th and 18th Centuries (Hart and North) and there they were! Now granted, these cardigans sweaters are identified as "jackets," though perhaps in an attempt to avoid the sweater/jumper terminoligy confusion. The first is made of pink and yellow (part gilt) silk, knitted in a floral design and dated to about 1630. The book has no information about how it was worn. The second is a white wool jacket with lots of fancy stitches from the 1700s, the text says it may have been worn by a woman recovering from childbirth. By the way, this book is stunning! I have found it so inspirational! - --- Visit my homepage: http://pages.hotbot.com/travel/fire.fly HotBot - Search smarter. http://www.hotbot.com _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: kat@grendal.rain.com Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 06:38:42 +0000 Subject: Re: H-COST: OOP Alcega - -Poster: kat@grendal.rain.com > If anyone has a copy of the ORIGINAL Alcega (or a copy of a copy of a copy > of the original), and there's sufficient interest in doing the work to > self-publish, that's an option. The original is public domain so copyright > isn't a problem (translation might be -- how much text is there?). I've > self-publishing for a fast copy/printer for more than ten years and would > be willing to help on such a project. Actually, there's quite a bit of text. That text explains what is going on in the cutting diagram. While you *can* do it without the text, the text really adds a lot. Kat Kat(June Russell) kat@grendal.rain.com Heu! Tintinnuntius meus Sonat! _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Anah Date: Tue, 02 Mar 1999 10:06:59 -0500 Subject: Re: H-COST: Re:Dress form confusion! - -Poster: Anah uniquely yours. Michel McCabe wrote: > Are you using the Uniquely Yours or Fabulous Fit ?? _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Lady Eleanor Date: Tue, 02 Mar 1999 07:10:47 -0800 Subject: Re: H-COST: Re:Dress form confusion! - -Poster: Lady Eleanor Hi Micki, I like the look of this! I especially like the fact of the cast iron base. Now *that* should be heavy enough to stand up to the kind of abuse I put a dress form through! But, I get 404'd from your link. Try this one; http://www.fabulousfit.com/index.html Thanks for passing this on! I too would like to know if anyone here has actual experience with this system. The prices Michel quotes aren't bad either. Hey, this just might work. Michel McCabe wrote: > > -Poster: Michel McCabe > > I have been researching the Fabulous Fit. Which is a basic form that > includes 18 pieces of specially shaped foam that allows you to "adjust" the > form to your shape. > > The adjusted form is then covered with a beige top. I found a web page that > seems to be just under construction that answers several questions and have > found that it comes in 4 basic sizes - each includes the foam and a cover. > The cost varies depending on which base you choose and it is still well in > line with the cost of those I have seen in the stores - Under $200 for the > "home/wooden base", even "professional/cast iron base" is under $300. I don't see where you found the prices...what am I missing? The > toher thing I like so far is that they have assured me the height form > shoulder to floor is adjustable which will make hemming a LOT easier - I > make a lot of > floor length skirts and dress and capes. Excellent. > The local fabric store had one of those where they send you a cover that > more or less > matches your shape - I am pretty sure the brand name was "Uniquely Yours" > but since I needed some ability to change the size, that would not work > unless I bought a bunch of extra covers. Even then, if you change shape like I seem to...I could go up a whole size, or down a size and wind up having to buy a new foam as well as a new cover. Not wholly practical for someone like me, which is one reason I have not bought one of those. > I do have to agree with you about the dial-a-shapes, they are so flimsy - Isn't that the truth? Gosh, I am thoroughly disgusted with mine! Soon I get a replacement, it's going in the trash! > and I am just > entirely too rough on my possessions so while the $600-1100 industrial > models are weigh > out of my budget, this one seems to be answering most of my concerns. I felt the same about it. > The other thing that caught my attention was that you can buy the body > forms separately > so if you only need one base if you happen to the type who only works on > one project at > a time. Since I have to custom fit a lot my DH shirts, this is going to be > a big plus. That's wonderful! I do a lot of sewing for others. I can see that it would be possible to get several different bodies for one stand, and be able to replicate just about anyone! I LIKE IT!! > I am also hoping they will sell additioal foam pads separately so that make > even more > adjustment. I'll bet they would. Have you inquired? > I think I will try to make the duct tape version for arms and legs so I can > try > to get better fitting garments. > Micki > > Michel McCabe > mailto:micki@connext.net > > _________________________________________________________________ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ End of h-costume-digest V4 #184 ******************************* _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME-DIGEST From ???@??? Tue Mar 02 19:43:04 1999 Received: from mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE (mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE [130.149.4.16]) by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA00118 for ; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 19:33:36 +0100 (MET) Received: from mail.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.15]) by mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10Htz3-0006K5-00; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 19:33:33 +0100 Received: from coal.bg.tu-berlin.de by mail.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Tue, 2 Mar 1999 19:33:19 +0100 Received: from mail.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.15]) by mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10Htym-0006Jp-00; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 19:33:16 +0100 Received: from tubkom.prz.tu-berlin.de by mail.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Tue, 2 Mar 1999 19:32:55 +0100 Received: from mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE (mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE [130.149.4.16]) by tubkom.prz.tu-berlin.de (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA28002 for ; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 19:31:31 +0100 (MEZ) Received: from mail.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.15]) by mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10HtyD-0006JP-00; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 19:32:41 +0100 Received: from server.indra.com by mail.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Tue, 2 Mar 1999 19:31:42 +0100 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.8.5/) with ESMTP id LAA22920; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 11:43:14 -0700 (MST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id LAA08456 for h-costume-digest-outgoing; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 11:29:57 -0700 (MST) Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 11:29:57 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199903021829.LAA08456@indra.com> From: owner-h-costume-digest@indra.com To: h-costume-digest@indra.com Subject: h-costume-digest V4 #185 Reply-To: h-costume-digest@indra.com Errors-To: owner-h-costume-digest@indra.com Precedence: bulk h-costume-digest Tuesday, 2 March 1999 Volume 04 : Number 185 In this issue: Re: H-COST: Re:Dress form confusion! Re: H-COST: Re:Dress form confusion! Re: H-COST: Re:Dress form confusion! Re: H-COST: Re:Dress form confusion! RE: H-COST: OOP Alcega RE: H-COST: fishermen H-COST: knitted garments Re: H-COST: Re:Dress form confusion! H-COST: "Queen Elizabeth and the Three Goddesses" Re: H-COST: H-COST - loose gowns+kirtles Re: H-COST: H-COST - loose gowns+kirtles Re: H-COST: foot forms Re: H-COST: fitting problem (was Dress form confusion!) H-COST: set of tartan ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Lady Eleanor Date: Tue, 02 Mar 1999 07:14:49 -0800 Subject: Re: H-COST: Re:Dress form confusion! - -Poster: Lady Eleanor Yup! Still, you never know. It might be something that *someone* might interesed in. I can think of a lot of things it would be very useful for...say for example casting feet for shoe lasts, faces...if one did mask work...maybe cast a hand to make a glove form...just lots of things. But I agree...doing a whole body would cost a bundle. It would also require a level of immodesty far beyond *my* comfort zone. ;-) Eleanor Michel McCabe wrote: > > -Poster: Michel McCabe > It looks like the materials cost would be well over the cost > of either the Uniquely You or Fabulous Fit - heck by the time > you figure in the time and logistics, even the industrial models > are not out of reach cost wise. > > _________________________________________________________________ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Lady Eleanor Date: Tue, 02 Mar 1999 07:15:29 -0800 Subject: Re: H-COST: Re:Dress form confusion! - -Poster: Lady Eleanor Yes please! Do share!! Eleanor Michel McCabe wrote: > > -Poster: Michel McCabe > > >>AND, the nice thing about the foamies...is that you CAN corset them. > > Please write me privately as to what brands, and any other > > Could we keep this on the list? Or would the same people who are writing > to Carol also copy me - I am really trying to make a decision and welcome > ANY input or experience./ > > TIA > > Micki > _________________________________________________________________ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Michel McCabe Date: Tue, 02 Mar 1999 10:33:58 -0500 Subject: Re: H-COST: Re:Dress form confusion! - -Poster: Michel McCabe At 07:10 AM 3/2/99 -0800, you wrote: > >-Poster: Lady Eleanor > >Hi Micki, > >I like the look of this! I especially like the fact of the >cast iron base. Now *that* should be heavy enough to stand >up to the kind of abuse I put a dress form through! > >But, I get 404'd from your link. Try this one; > I must have typed it incorrectly or something, here is the one I just used. http://www.craftwolf.com/FiberArt/fabfit/index.htm _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Lady Eleanor Date: Tue, 02 Mar 1999 08:45:09 -0800 Subject: Re: H-COST: Re:Dress form confusion! - -Poster: Lady Eleanor Yes, that is a slightly different site. I did find the prices there...thanks! I also, just wrote to them to ask about pricing for the bodies alone, additional pad sets, and a few other things. The more I think about that form, the more I think it's a pretty good idea. Gotta be "squishable" though...I mean of course, more than just the pads. If it won't give a correct impression in a tight corset, it's not going to be any better than what I have now...wellll, maybe somewhat better. :-) Still, I'm very glad to know about it!! Eleanor Michel McCabe wrote: > > -Poster: Michel McCabe > > At 07:10 AM 3/2/99 -0800, you wrote: > > > >-Poster: Lady Eleanor > > > >Hi Micki, > > > >I like the look of this! I especially like the fact of the > >cast iron base. Now *that* should be heavy enough to stand > >up to the kind of abuse I put a dress form through! > > > >But, I get 404'd from your link. Try this one; > > > > I must have typed it incorrectly or something, here is the one I just > used. > > http://www.craftwolf.com/FiberArt/fabfit/index.htm > _________________________________________________________________ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Hulett Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 08:58:47 -0800 Subject: RE: H-COST: OOP Alcega - -Poster: Hulett Hi, all, I have a copy of something called, 'Drafting & Constructing a Simple Doublet and Trunkhose of the Spanish Renaissance' by R.W. Trump, Published by Alfarhaugr Publishing Society, Eugene Oregon. 1991, ISBN 0-9623719-2-0. It relies heavily on the Alcega work including original patterns, reconstructed patterns, drawings from the original and recreations from the Alcega pattern book. I got it for 12.50 from Costume Con in LA some years ago. Perhaps it is still in existance. Hope this helps, cheers, jd - -----Original Message----- From: Kristin Page [SMTP:kdp@tiac.net] Sent: Monday, March 01, 1999 1:48 AM To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: H-COST: OOP Alcega - -Poster: Kristin Page If anyone has a copy of the ORIGINAL Alcega (or a copy of a copy of a copy of the original), and there's sufficient interest in doing the work to self-publish, that's an option. The original is public domain so copyright isn't a problem (translation might be -- how much text is there?). I've self-publishing for a fast copy/printer for more than ten years and would be willing to help on such a project. Kristin _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Hulett Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 09:09:02 -0800 Subject: RE: H-COST: fishermen - -Poster: Hulett Okay, enough lurking. Page 20 of 'Copy Cats and Artifacts' by Marianne Ford has a mid 14th century illumination of the Madonna of Bexterhude, by Maitre Bertram, clearly showing her knitting a short sleeved sweater/jumper/pullover/fill in the blank. The first paragraph says: Early sulpture suggests that knitting was a craft known in the second c ad. The hand knitting industry became established in England during the 16th c, when knitted caps were made, although gloves and stockings continued to be imported from spain and italy. So while current styles cannot necessarily be traced back before the 19th, ie aran or such, some form of knitting or knitted shirts has. My husband added that sailors have been knitting pullover/sweaters/whatever for hundreds of years. I did find a very cool knitted Jane Austen era petticote once in a German Museum guide. Too bad I don't knit. Cheers, jd - -----Original Message----- From: David W. Rickman [SMTP:drickman@state.de.us] Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 1999 5:17 AM To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: re: H-COST: fishermen - -Poster: "David W. Rickman" Hello, You may want to look into the history of British "Guernsey frocks," knitted pullovers which, I believe, date at least to the early 19th century. The British do not call these garments "sweaters" but pullovers, frocks and cardigans. I don't have a copy at hand, but I "The Workwoman's Guide" (1830's) does have a section on knitting and may mention them. However, now that I think of it, in "Silver and Gold" a book about Gold Rush-era daguerreotypes published by the Oakland Museum, there is a photo of a man wearing a wildly patterned sweater while working his claim. That would be about 1850. David Rickman "Deborah Pulliam" Wrote: | | | -Poster: pulliam@acadia.net (Deborah Pulliam) | | <> | | Fisherman's sweaters are strictly a very late | nineteenth/twentieth century | invention. | | Deborah | | | | __________________________________________________________ | _______ | To leave this mailing list, send mail to | majordomo@indra.com | with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME | _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: pulliam@acadia.net (Deborah Pulliam) Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 12:22:36 -0500 Subject: H-COST: knitted garments - -Poster: pulliam@acadia.net (Deborah Pulliam) << The second is a white wool jacket with lots of fancy stitches from the 1700s, the text says it may have been worn by a woman recovering from childbirth.>> The white knitted jacket in the V&A is actually cotton, as is their baby jacket, made as almost a miniature version (don't get me wrong, it's not a mother/daughter set. Stylistically, they're similar, but there's no connection between the two objects.) Neither have any fancy stitches, they're made entirely with knit/purl combinations (no lace patterns, no cables, etc.) There are a few other adult-size cotton jackets, tentatively dated to the 18c, in various collections. There are more baby jackets in various collections; they're not identical, but close to it. The V&A also owns an 18c man's waistcoat (vest) which is made of knitted cotton (oddly enough, it looks like t-shirt material) which was frame knitted, then cut and sewn as woven fabric would be. There are silk and gilt jackets in several collections as well (usually identified as 17c), and were most likely worn by women -- all have extremely narrow chest measurements. They're flat knitted in rectangles and sewn together, and are fairly crude looking compared with other work of the 17c. The earliest print reference to a guernsey frock (what we'd call a sweater or pullover) is 1858 (included in a report of a theft of clothing.) Deborah _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Lynn Downward Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 10:04:16 -0800 Subject: Re: H-COST: Re:Dress form confusion! - -Poster: Lynn Downward >-Poster: Michel McCabe > > >>>AND, the nice thing about the foamies...is that you CAN corset them. >> Please write me privately as to what brands, and any other > >Could we keep this on the list? Or would the same people who are writing >to Carol also copy me - I am really trying to make a decision and welcome >ANY input or experience./ > >TIA > >Micki > _________________________________________________________________ I was just about to write the same request - that this be kept on the list. I've been seriously thinking about buying a form, but didn't have much info. This thread has been really informative and I'd like to continue getting all your wonderful input. LynnD _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Carolyn Kayta Barrows Date: Tue, 02 Mar 1999 08:54:51 -0800 Subject: H-COST: "Queen Elizabeth and the Three Goddesses" - -Poster: Carolyn Kayta Barrows > BTW, does anyone know of a book/Web resource with a large reproduction of >"Queen Elizabeth and the Three Goddesses"? One of those Goddesses has her feet on an embroidered shirt. Kayta ////.\\\ ////-@@\\\ (((( 7 ((( | -- )))) * ) ((((( /----\ /---\ _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Carolyn Kayta Barrows Date: Tue, 02 Mar 1999 09:33:47 -0800 Subject: Re: H-COST: H-COST - loose gowns+kirtles - -Poster: Carolyn Kayta Barrows >Actually, my first (and so far only) attempt made me look a lot like >the Friendship 7 space capsule! Funny you should mention it. When wearing the conical (1850's-60's) jacket I believe is called a paletot, over a hooped skirt, the effect is very much like the Friendship 7 capsule. It wouldn't be right if it wasn't. Kayta ////.\\\ ////-@@\\\ (((( 7 ((( | -- )))) * ) ((((( /----\ /---\ _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Carolyn Kayta Barrows Date: Tue, 02 Mar 1999 09:15:17 -0800 Subject: Re: H-COST: H-COST - loose gowns+kirtles - -Poster: Carolyn Kayta Barrows > I even find corsets and even bras >>really uncomfortable while nursing too. > >Just out of curiousity, what did you wear while nursing? I'm due with my >first in May and I'm tired of wearing my kirtle and loose gown to every >event. I wore a corsetless Tudor housedress like in the drawing for the painting of Thos. Moore and family. I even wore it while pregnant. I called it a 'Tudor station wagon'. It worked well. Kayta ////.\\\ ////-@@\\\ (((( 7 ((( | -- )))) * ) ((((( /----\ /---\ _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Carolyn Kayta Barrows Date: Tue, 02 Mar 1999 10:06:36 -0800 Subject: Re: H-COST: foot forms - -Poster: Carolyn Kayta Barrows >That's an excellent idea! Trouble is that my customers all live at least >one state away and I rely on their accurate measurements. (So far, so >good.) I'll try it when I get my hands on some flesh, though! Or maybe >I can convince them to do the sock-and-duct-tape part themselves. Make sure they stand on the foot being taped, or it will be too small. The foot spreads some as weight is being put on it. Kayta ////.\\\ ////-@@\\\ (((( 7 ((( | -- )))) * ) ((((( /----\ /---\ _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Carolyn Kayta Barrows Date: Tue, 02 Mar 1999 10:01:27 -0800 Subject: Re: H-COST: fitting problem (was Dress form confusion!) - -Poster: Carolyn Kayta Barrows >Which leads to a corollary question: how on earth do you fit a dress that has >no separate breast support? That is, the bodice of the dress holds you rather >than a corset, but the bust is not in the same place it is with a modern bra. >So, how do you keep the bust in place while you fit? Duct tape yourself into position first (yes, while wearing the t-shirt), then do the 'real' taping. Kayta ////.\\\ ////-@@\\\ (((( 7 ((( | -- )))) * ) ((((( /----\ /---\ _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Carolyn Kayta Barrows Date: Tue, 02 Mar 1999 09:11:27 -0800 Subject: H-COST: set of tartan - -Poster: Carolyn Kayta Barrows I don't >particularly care about the set, as long as it isn't something truly >obvious like Royal Stewart. Blues and heathery tones would look great with >his colouring, but again...not that picky. See if you can find book about tartans or a mail order catalog from one of those Scottish import places. Then carefully DON'T match anything in it. Go for the heathery look if you want, as it will read well. The guy can then say, with a straight face, that the plaid you find is really his family plaid, because it sure won't be anybody else's. Kayta ////.\\\ ////-@@\\\ (((( 7 ((( | -- )))) * ) ((((( /----\ /---\ _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ End of h-costume-digest V4 #185 ******************************* _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME-DIGEST From ???@??? Tue Mar 02 22:13:43 1999 Received: from mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE (mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE [130.149.4.16]) by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA00808 for ; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 22:03:49 +0100 (MET) Received: from mail.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.15]) by mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10HwKO-0002PH-01; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 22:03:44 +0100 Received: from coal.bg.tu-berlin.de by mail.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Tue, 2 Mar 1999 22:03:42 +0100 Received: from mail2.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.14]) by mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10HwKH-0002Oo-01; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 22:03:37 +0100 Received: from tubkom.prz.tu-berlin.de by mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Tue, 2 Mar 1999 22:02:40 +0100 Received: from mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE (mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE [130.149.4.16]) by tubkom.prz.tu-berlin.de (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA28961 for ; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 22:01:22 +0100 (MEZ) Received: from mail.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.15]) by mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10HwJD-0002My-01; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 22:02:31 +0100 Received: from server.indra.com by mail.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Tue, 2 Mar 1999 22:00:52 +0100 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.8.5/) with ESMTP id OAA20447; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 14:11:08 -0700 (MST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id NAA08875 for h-costume-digest-outgoing; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 13:57:56 -0700 (MST) Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 13:57:56 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199903022057.NAA08875@indra.com> From: owner-h-costume-digest@indra.com To: h-costume-digest@indra.com Subject: h-costume-digest V4 #186 Reply-To: h-costume-digest@indra.com Errors-To: owner-h-costume-digest@indra.com Precedence: bulk h-costume-digest Tuesday, 2 March 1999 Volume 04 : Number 186 In this issue: RE: H-COST: Theatrical spangles and fringes Re: H-COST: Theatrical spangles and fringes H-COST: 1500's Germany and corsets Re: H-COST: Riding astride Re: H-COST: H-COST - loose gowns+kirtles H-COST: Corsets and Stays on the Frontier H-COST: costume question H-COST: Tartans Re: H-COST: OOP Alcega Re: H-COST: Tartan in VA Re: H-COST: "Queen Elizabeth and the Three Goddesses" ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Carolyn Kayta Barrows Date: Tue, 02 Mar 1999 08:43:02 -0800 Subject: RE: H-COST: Theatrical spangles and fringes - -Poster: Carolyn Kayta Barrows Yes, but usually the pictures aren't big enough to help me. I have not seen the one you mention, and will look for it. I have six months of some theatrical magazine from 1909 which have been hardbound. As the book is 10"x14", and some of the pictures are full page, this is some help. But what I really need is modern colour pictures, for the clarity modern technology can produce. Surviving costumes would be best. >Have you considered reading actors' biographies? I have a picture >biography of Sarah Bernhardt that has many photographs of her in >costume. Joanna Richardson, _Sarah Bernhardt and her World_, SBN: >399-11887-X, c. 1977, Putnam. Kayta ////.\\\ ////-@@\\\ (((( 7 ((( | -- )))) * ) ((((( /----\ /---\ _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Carolyn Kayta Barrows Date: Tue, 02 Mar 1999 08:44:35 -0800 Subject: Re: H-COST: Theatrical spangles and fringes - -Poster: Carolyn Kayta Barrows Two more good suggestions. Thank you. >> When you find out please let me know. I want to make an 1880's 'fancy >> dress' Medieval which looks like it came from the stock of a theatre, >> and have been holding off for years for want of examples. I have a few >> pictures fuzzily showing the use of this gold stuff, but no clear examples. > >Look for a copy of "the Victor Book of the Opera". It's copyrighted 1929, but >also 1949, 1953, and 1968. It has plenty of pictures of operas from that >period. I can scan some pictures if you need. > >You might also try looking for a biography of Richard Wagner with lots of >pictures. Most of his operas debuted in this country around the 1880's and >deal with medieval themes or are based on epic poems of medieval minnesa"nger. Kayta ////.\\\ ////-@@\\\ (((( 7 ((( | -- )))) * ) ((((( /----\ /---\ _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Carolyn Kayta Barrows Date: Tue, 02 Mar 1999 09:07:06 -0800 Subject: H-COST: 1500's Germany and corsets - -Poster: Carolyn Kayta Barrows IMHO, when people are asking about corsets in the 1500's they are asking about English. The Italians, French, and Spanish were also into this vertical restructuring thing. Not so the Germans, as you have noticed in many pictures. I can't believe Germans went entirely braless and jiggly. But their understructure is certainly more woman-shaped in front than it is in the rest of Europe at this time. For later-1500's Germans I use a stiffened underbodice, built like a long-line bra but without cups. For earlier in the 1500's that U-shaped neckline-and-shoulders band can be made structural if the bodice is canvas lined. After viewing loads and loads of >German art, I don't believe that corsetry was a 100% common thing. IMHO, >most middle class and lower people were held up by their bodice if >anything, so the concept of even a well to do pregnant or nursing woman >going without is not scandalous. Not that it could not be worn with a >corset, IMHO, it would more likely have been a personal preference issue. >Some of the German matrons I would say are not wearing corsets because they >have the wrong lines (having a rather dropped breast sillouette). Kayta ////.\\\ ////-@@\\\ (((( 7 ((( | -- )))) * ) ((((( /----\ /---\ _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Margo Anderson Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 10:51:55 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: H-COST: Riding astride - -Poster: Margo Anderson At 02:39 AM 3/2/99 -0500, you wrote: > >-Poster: Melanie Wilson > >> Diana doesn't say so, but my assumption is that the horses being >used by ladies in skirts are going to be slowly and gently accustomed to >the idea of having yards of fabric 'thrown over' them, simulating mounting >and dismounting, and also ridden with such, so that they get used to the >idea of all that fabric flapping about as they move...inc. in high winds, >just in case. > > Most of these horses have been ridden in this event for years, and are well trained...at least, in 30+ years of watching the end of the trail parade, I've never seen a problem with a horse spooking. It probably wouldn't be an issue. Margo _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Margo Anderson Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 11:02:47 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: H-COST: H-COST - loose gowns+kirtles - -Poster: Margo Anderson At 09:33 AM 3/2/99 -0800, you wrote: > >-Poster: Carolyn Kayta Barrows > > >>Actually, my first (and so far only) attempt made me look a lot like >>the Friendship 7 space capsule! > >Funny you should mention it. When wearing the conical (1850's-60's) jacket >I believe is called a paletot, over a hooped skirt, the effect is very much >like the Friendship 7 capsule. It wouldn't be right if it wasn't. I happened to be eight months pregnant during the last Dickens Faire. Not being willing to sit it out, I wore one of these outfits. People called it "The big purple egg". Margo _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "David W. Rickman" Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 12:28:43 -0700 (MST) Subject: H-COST: Corsets and Stays on the Frontier - -Poster: "David W. Rickman" Hello, I really only subscribed to H-costume to try to find someone to advise me on Russian costume terminology, but I found a message that referred to a book I wrote, The Sutter's Fort Costume Manual, and felt that I needed to respond. Most of you probably do not know this work. I wrote it about ten years ago for the California Department of Parks and Recreation as a guide to costuming for the volunteer interpreters at this California state historic site. In somewhere around 200 pages, 90 costume reconstructions, 86 pages of detailed costume drawings and a great deal of text, I attempted to document what was worn by at least seven distinct cultures (as disparate as Nez Perce Indians and American sailors) who converged on this little site, Sutter's Fort, around 1845. The book, in my opinion, was not all I had hoped it would be. To begin with, the many photographs, drawings, paintings and photos of actual garments were cut for lack of budget and the fact that they nearly equaled in size the rest of the book. Secondly, again for lack of budget, the book never received a proper editing, and went straight from my manuscript to press. Thus, a careful reader will find a number of typos and other inconsistencies. Also, an editor would have seen that I was, at the time, affected by the many costuming controversies that simmered at the site (and probably still do). For example, the section on mountain men was rather emphatic and overlong in an attempt to counter those volunteers who reveled in yellow Tandy Leather "buckskins" and headgear of the sort I like to call "roadkill with beadwork." And there were other problems as well, which I regret. But, overall, looking back at the work I did, I stand by most of what I have written. Which brings me to Margo Anderson's query about the use of corsets and stays by women emigrants from the United States and Territories of the 1840's. Recently in these H-costume pages, someone wrote that my book was "a generally useful and good costume guide for outer garments" but that the author "doesn't really understand much about women's stays and corsets (this is understandable)". Actually, I do understand stays and corsets. However, I am rather old-fashioned in that I cannot assume the use of a garment unless I find primary source evidence for its use. At the time I was researching this book, I made a concerted effort to discover some reference to or depiction of early-19th century rural working women in corsets or stays and I found none. I also consulted others who were very knowlegeable about women's clothing of the early 19th century. As a member of the Costume Society of America, I had access to some of the very best, including Claudia Kidwell of the Smithsonian, Nancy Rexford, Joan Severa and Jessica Nicholl, then curator of costumes and textiles at Old Sturbridge Village. All of them attested to the fact that foundation garments were a fashion must in this era, but not one of them could point to their definite use by rural women of the laboring class. In fact, Jessica Nicholl showed me that New England farm women of the 1830's and earlier had worn a chemise and petticoat with a shortgown and no foundation beneath. Instead, they wore cross cloths or else a large scarf over the shoulders and pinned in front, and so maintained a neat and comfortable appearance. Short gowns had gone out of use by the mid-1840's, but round dresses were also cut loosely, and the same use of cross cloths and scarves continued. Joan Severa sent me a quote from a mid-19th century book (which I cannot now find) in which a townswoman remarks with disgust the sight a rural woman who wears no foundation. We often assume that, because we wear a garment and feel that it is natural to do so, that that same garment or its equivalent would naturally have been used in the past. I remember when I spoke at La Purisima Mission State Historic Site in California about the costumes I had researched and designed for them. This is a site where a handful of White volunteers reenact the lives of several thousand Native American neophytes who served, essentially as slaves, at a Spanish Catholic mission. After my talk, one woman stood up and asked me seriously what sort of purse a mission Indian woman would have carried. The only reply I could think to make to this rather absurd question was "What makes you think they had anything to put in a purse?" So with foundation garments. A woman today may feel comfortable wearing a bra with her historical garments, but it is not inconceivable that many American women in the past did without foundations. Certainly African American slave women wore no foundations, but they did wear the same style round dress and did much of the same kinds of work as the rural White farm women. An 1834 list of "Essential Articles of Dress" issued to missionaries leaving New England for Hawaii gives a complete inventory of the clothing needed by men and women for a three year sojourn in the Islands. It lists such intimate apparel as underdrawers for the men and "changes of linen" for women, but makes no mention of the less intimate corset or stays (I give this inventory on page 190 of my book). We may make our own assumptions about what was considered 19th century American standards of dress and decency, but photographs from later, no less Victorian times do not always bear them out. I have found no photographs of early 19th century women at work. However, from later in the century there is a photograph of a laundress at a Union camp during the Civil War. From the shape and position of this woman's breasts it is clear that she wears only a chemise and a thick pullover sweater as she works, and no foundation (my copy of this well-known photograph is in Juanita Leisch's "An Introduction to Civil War Civilians" p. 54; Thomas Publications, Gettysburg, PA, 1994). Still later in the century, Joan Severa's "Dressed for the Photographer: Ordinary Americans and Fashion, 1840 - 1900" (Kent State University Press, 1995) shows on page 512 a photograph of a Norwegian farm woman at the turn of the century walking with her husband in a rural western American town. Joan points out the obvious, that the woman, though wearing a tight bodice, is clearly without foundations. And into this century. How many photographs have we seen of poor rural women during the Depression, dressed only in a cotton dress over a slip? Many of these women were young wives in the late 19th century and it is unlikely that they were influenced by the Flappers of ten years earlier to go without foundations when they were photographed. Rather, it is more likely that they never made much use of foundations, and neither had their mothers nor their grandmothers. I tried also to think about the availability of corsets and stays in rural America of the first half of the 19th century. Mass-produced foundations were not available through mail order catalogues as they were later in the century. Nor were these women likely to have had access to a professional corset maker. And corsets and stays were not easy to make by hand. "The Workwoman's Guide" from the 1830's gives a pattern, but then (pp.80-81) recommends that a woman who wants to make a set first go to a professional corset maker and have a set made that fits to serve as a model. She should also have another set cut out but not assembled, to serve as a guide for her own cutting-out. This was an era when rural women made all of their own clothing, and that of their children, but only made the shirts and underclothes for their men. For their trousers and coats, most rural men then went to a tailor or waited for an itinerant to come by, because these were difficult and time-consuming garments to make. This is according to a conversation with the noted specialist in men's clothing history, William Brown of the National Park Service, and Carlyle Buley's "The Old Northwest" (2 vols. Indiana University, 1951 pp. 206 - -210). To me, at least, it seems unlikely that these same women would go to the time, trouble and expense of making a garment that they might very well do without, given the loose dresses, cross cloths and scarves that they wore. I am not someone who thinks that foundations would necessarily prevent women from doing any kind of work; I have too many friends who are reenactors who tell me differently. But these women were often pregnant or nursing for much of their adult lives (one of the reasons for the front closure on their round dresses), and it takes special kinds of corsets or stays to do this comfortably. Finally, I did make the distinction in my book between what I termed "Emigrant Women" and "Emigrant Ladies." The women of my book were farm women, working women without much wealth or status. The ladies were those who, like Tamsen Donner, came from comfortable middle class lives and intended to return to comfortable middle class lives when they arrived in California. I state (p.73) "It is probable that some ladies traveling west continued to wear boning in the bodice, and even a corset for best dress and even travel" and go on to cite examples. Today, ten years later, I would probably extend the use of a soft padded corset without boning to those reenacting emmigrant women. Not because any evidence for this has come to my attention, but out of consideration for their comfort, and because patterns were available through such books as "A Workwoman's Guide." So, I hope it is clear from this rather long-winded explanation that I did not make the statement about corsets and stays lightly, but after considerable thought, research and consultation. There is a difference between Civil War reenactment, where by consulting uniform regulations and the well-documented fashions of the time it is hard (though not impossible) to go wrong, and interpreting the early American West, which is poorly documented and is, for many reenactors, a realm of fantasy and imagination. For this reason, I tried very hard to base everything in my book on solid documentation. Apparently, it was not enough. David Rickman drickman@state.de.us _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Jane Paunicka Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 12:38:35 -0700 (MST) Subject: H-COST: costume question - -Poster: Jane Paunicka I am trying to find out information on the costume term "turkey back". If anyone has any information please ............thanks.....jp Jane K. Paunicka Costume Shop Supervisor 114 Washington Hall Department of Communication and Theatre University of Notre Dame Notre Dame, IN 46556 (219)631-0633 _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Abbott, Ruth" Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 14:02:41 -0600 Subject: H-COST: Tartans - -Poster: "Abbott, Ruth" > > I don't > >particularly care about the set, as long as it isn't something truly > >obvious like Royal Stewart. Blues and heathery tones would > look great with > >his colouring, but again...not that picky. > > See if you can find book about tartans or a mail order > catalog from one of > those Scottish import places. Then carefully DON'T match > anything in it. > Go for the heathery look if you want, as it will read well. > The guy can > then say, with a straight face, that the plaid you find is really his > family plaid, because it sure won't be anybody else's. > There are so many different "official" tartans that it would be practically impossible to avoid duplicating one of them. Just take a look at this Website http://www.house-of-tartan.scotland.net/house/tfinder.htp They have (I believe)18,000 tartans listed, and many surnames are connected to half a dozen different patterns. Too bad you can't search their database for, say, tartans with blue in them. I can understand avoiding the easily recognizable tartans, but beyond that I wouldn't worry about it. _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Dan Fenwick" Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 12:15:08 -0800 Subject: Re: H-COST: OOP Alcega - -Poster: "Dan Fenwick" >Hi, all, > I have a copy of something called, 'Drafting & Constructing a Simple >Doublet and Trunkhose of the Spanish Renaissance' by R.W. Trump, Published >by Alfarhaugr Publishing Society, Eugene Oregon. 1991, ISBN 0-9623719-2-0. >It relies heavily on the Alcega work including original patterns, >reconstructed patterns, drawings from the original and recreations from the >Alcega pattern book. I got it for 12.50 from Costume Con in LA some years >ago. Perhaps it is still in existance. >Hope this helps, cheers, jd You can get it from www.greenduck.com It has instructions and so on for one doublet but doesn't really cover much of the rest of Alcega's material. Dan _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Jessica Wilbur" Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 15:49:52 -0500 Subject: Re: H-COST: Tartan in VA - -Poster: "Jessica Wilbur" > > -Poster: Michel McCabe > > >Second...can anyone let me know the best places to find good deals on > >suitable fabric in his area? He lives in VA near Washington. I don't > > G-Street - they are in DC & also Rockville MD (Rockville is not far from > the Beltway Hmm... G Street has a huge selection, and their fabric is excellent quality-- but you pay for it. G Street is Not Cheap. However, the alternatives are Joanne's and Hancock Fabrics. (At least, for the Northern VA area) There are probably other options in the MD suburbs of DC, but I'm not as familiar with them. - --Jessica _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Frank&Tracy Thallas JR" Date: Tue, 02 Mar 99 15:00:05 PST Subject: Re: H-COST: "Queen Elizabeth and the Three Goddesses" - -Poster: "Frank&Tracy Thallas JR" > > BTW, does anyone know of a book/Web resource with a large reproduct= ion of > >"Queen Elizabeth and the Three Goddesses"? > > One of those Goddesses has her feet on an embroidered shirt. Another reason I want to find a GOOD BIG reproduction - I want a closer look at that garment! Liadain, embroiderer of "undies"... > > Kayta > ////.\\\ > ////-@@\\\ > (((( 7 ((( > | -- )))) > * ) ((((( > /----\ /---\ > > _________________________________________________________________ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME > _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ End of h-costume-digest V4 #186 ******************************* _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME-DIGEST From ???@??? Wed Mar 03 13:03:17 1999 Received: from mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE (mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE [130.149.4.16]) by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA02858 for ; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 05:36:37 +0100 (MET) Received: from mail.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.15]) by mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10I3Oe-000306-00; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 05:36:36 +0100 Received: from coal.bg.tu-berlin.de by mail.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Wed, 3 Mar 1999 05:36:29 +0100 Received: from mail2.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.14]) by mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10I3OT-0002zf-00; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 05:36:25 +0100 Received: from tubkom.prz.tu-berlin.de by mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Wed, 3 Mar 1999 05:36:24 +0100 Received: from mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE (mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE [130.149.4.16]) by tubkom.prz.tu-berlin.de (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id FAA01506 for ; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 05:35:10 +0100 (MEZ) Received: from mail.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.15]) by mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10I3OP-0002zd-00; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 05:36:21 +0100 Received: from server.indra.com by mail.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Wed, 3 Mar 1999 05:36:18 +0100 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.8.5/) with ESMTP id VAA07040; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 21:48:07 -0700 (MST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id VAA18769 for h-costume-digest-outgoing; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 21:34:50 -0700 (MST) Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 21:34:50 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199903030434.VAA18769@indra.com> From: owner-h-costume-digest@indra.com To: h-costume-digest@indra.com Subject: h-costume-digest V4 #187 Reply-To: h-costume-digest@indra.com Errors-To: owner-h-costume-digest@indra.com Precedence: bulk h-costume-digest Tuesday, 2 March 1999 Volume 04 : Number 187 In this issue: Re: H-COST: Corsets and Stays on the Frontier Re: H-COST: More about knitting (Historical Fashion in Detail) Re: H-COST: SCA Garb list functioning? H-COST: Re: foot forms Re: H-COST: Riding astride, 1850's RE: H-COST: fishermen H-COST: Quick Medieval Mime Costume -- Help! H-COST: Folkware on sale H-COST: What is it? H-COST: costume design in film Re: H-COST: fishermen Re: H-COST: OOP Alcega Re: H-COST: H-COST - loose gowns+kirtles ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LuAnnMason@aol.com Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 16:09:31 EST Subject: Re: H-COST: Corsets and Stays on the Frontier - -Poster: LuAnnMason@aol.com In a message dated 3/2/99 2:29:49 PM EST, drickman@state.de.us writes: << I really only subscribed to H-costume to try to find someone to advise me on Russian costume terminology, but I found a message that referred to a book I wrote, The Sutter's Fort Costume Manual, and felt that I needed to respond. Most of you probably do not know this work. I wrote it about ten years ago for the California Department of Parks and Recreation as a guide to costuming for the volunteer interpreters at this California state historic site. In somewhere around 200 pages, 90 costume reconstructions, 86 pages of detailed costume drawings and a great deal of text, I attempted to document what was worn by at least seven distinct cultures (as disparate as Nez Perce Indians and American sailors) who converged on this little site, Sutter's Fort, around 1845. The book, in my opinion, was not all I had hoped it would be. >> Mr. Rickman, While I, for one, did not personally agree with your voiced opinions on stays/corsets (I think they were probably more common than stated, but far from universal, so we're talking a matter of degree here), I will have to say that this purchase was one of the most well researched, well illustrated, and usable costuming tomes I've ever purchased. If it was not all you'd hoped it would be, it was still without a doubt, one of the very best costuming book purchases I've made in nearly 20 years of costuming. Informative, documented, easy to understand--it had it all. I urge anyone who has an interest in this time period and location to seriously consider buying Mr. Rickman's book. He's being far too modest. :-) No affiliation, just a VERY pleased (and surprised) customer-- LuAnn Mason Vancouver, WA _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: seamstrix@juno.com Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 09:06:06 -0600 Subject: Re: H-COST: More about knitting (Historical Fashion in Detail) - -Poster: seamstrix@juno.com I just bought a copy of the book myself at the V&A,(yes, I just flew back from England and, boy, are my arms tired!) and I love it. It has just the sort of pictures that I would take if only they'd let me inside the cases! The detail is great. By the way, if it hasn't already been mentioned, the V&A is currently having a salute to Janet Arnold in it's costume gallery. It has put up the sketches that she did of items in the collection in the cases with the items and has added little extra tidbits about her measuring/sketching process. Then they have also set up a display of costumes from the Globe and RSC which were based on Ms. Arnold's work. A very nice exhibit and very wothwhile checking on if any of you folks are are going to be in England soon. The costumes were particularly interesting from a historic standpoint, always fun to see what someone else will do with a basic design. Karen _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: ches Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 16:23:23 -0600 (CST) Subject: Re: H-COST: SCA Garb list functioning? - -Poster: ches SCA-GARB@LIST.UVM.EDU is the new home of the list. I believe you can go to the ansteorra site and sub to it from there as well. http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html Sincerely, F. Havas ches@io.com On Mon, 1 Mar 1999 lilinah@grin.net wrote: > Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 21:40:30 -0800 (PST) > From: lilinah@grin.net > Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com > To: h-costume > Subject: H-COST: SCA Garb list functioning? > > > -Poster: lilinah@grin.net > > A while back folks were talking about the SCA garb list, but it seemed to > be having some problems. > > Then i noticed a fleeting mention to the garb list in a recent post. So i > gather it is functioning. > > Could someone please send me info how how to subscribe? > > Thanks, > > Lilinah > > > _________________________________________________________________ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME > _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Dietmar Date: Tue, 02 Mar 1999 14:26:48 +0000 Subject: H-COST: Re: foot forms - -Poster: Dietmar Greetings all, Kayta wrote: > Make sure they stand on the foot being taped, or it will be too small. > The foot spreads some as weight is being put on it. You should also have the foot slightly extended, not at a right angle to the leg. Adding about 10-15 degrees of flex will help to keep people from ripping out the top of the hose when they walk. Regards, Dietmar (remove NOSPAM to reply) "Victory or Defeat rests in God's hands; over Honor, we ourselves are Lord and Master." _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Julie Adams Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 15:10:53 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: H-COST: Riding astride, 1850's - -Poster: Julie Adams >The saddle also changed in the mid 1800s, making it somewhat safer for the >women riding (like >the old saddle you own, which is probably very >valuable, since the presenter did mention that >extant saddles like this >are rare). The saddle I had was very small. Both horse (or mule) and rider would need to be petite. I have gained too much weight to ride in it and don't ever care if I'm the size 6 I was when I bought it. I restored it enough to ride in, but it was never comfortable due to the seat configuration anyway. But it was not particularly precarious and I could canter and trot and trail ride in it. I donated it to the local historical adobe that they are restoring near my home so I could get a good tax write off. My older horse had died and I sold my other mare to my neighbor a couple years ago. I don't figure I'll get another horse for at least 3-5 yrs from now. And anyway, side saddles must fit both the horse and the rider, and if I get another horse it will be larger than the last. Originally I was saving it in case my second was a daughter, but my second (and last) child was a boy, now 10 mos. I think I still have another side-saddle tree in my garage, but it needs full restoration. I hope the Adobe will eventually get a living history program and will find a young girl to ride in the saddle. The siderail and skirts are all decorated with blue and white flowers. Its really lovely. > If a woman could afford it, she wore a riding habit, which could also be >worn for a variety of other casual occupations. I agree with you, but most pioneer women were not usually very well-off financially. So portraying women wearing riding habits might not be that accurate for a wagon train re-enactment. Walking or riding in the wagon would be most likely. I have read accounts of a number of women who came west with side-saddle in tow, however, and I've seen pictures of several of those side-saddles. > I think, if carefully sewn, a split could be well-hidden under >period-appropriate overskirt decorations. Its actually easier to wear breeches under all. Actually I've worn long skirts riding both astride and side-saddle. As long as one is not running steeple-chases, its not that dangerous for an experienced rider to ride with skirts astride. That would look far better than jeans at least. I assume most of the people bringing their own horses to a wagon train event would be decent riders. At the renaissance faires and SCA equestrian events, women ride astride with skirts all the time. What is nice about them is that they cover non-period saddle leather. If Margo was to suggest a very light weight cotton in the skirt, it would probably tear in any major accident. >I am in no disagreement about the fact that trained side saddle riders can >ride safely. My only point was that it can be dangerous for the >untrained. This was also a significant point at the academic presentation >I attended. Well, I do not agree with her that it takes much training or is very difficult at all. Side-saddle really doesn't take any special training that I know of and any rider can easily convert from astride to side-saddle. The horse is what needs conditioning because the muscles are used differently if its anything more than a short ride. Is she a side-saddle rider as well as a costume historian? Anyway, IMHO, the side-saddle thing is often stated to indicate women couldn't participate in riding activities historically. But if you look for it, there are women in hunt scenes riding side saddle from medieval times onward. They are shown running, jumping and the like, not only walking on fat old cobs. Modern folk not used to side-saddles often assume they are difficult to ride in. Actually the danger is that they are often too secure and women could easily get trapped. Remember that many of the Wild West show women often rode side-saddle and most of those saddles did not usually have leaping horns or a side rail (the seat back on my antique saddle). They have only been added to western and spanish saddles fairly recently. The mexican women who do the charro events here in San Diego mostly learned as children to ride side-saddle from the start. The ones I've talked to say its as natural as riding astride for them. They do quite a show if you ever get a chance to see one. In any case, the saddles are rare and expensive, so not practical for Margo's wagon train re-enactment (though she could contact the Side-saddle Club of America and mention it to them). >Anyways, I didn't write to make you or anyone else on the list upset >(after all, if you read what I wrote, we are pretty much in agreement on >all issues). You misinterpreted my writing. I was adding, agreeing, or disagreeing, but not upset at all. Julie Adams _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Kimberly Gilbert Date: Tue, 02 Mar 1999 19:58:56 -0500 Subject: RE: H-COST: fishermen - -Poster: Kimberly Gilbert > Early sulpture suggests that knitting was a craft known in the second c >ad. The hand knitting industry became established in England during the >16th c, when knitted caps were made, although gloves and stockings >continued to be imported from spain and italy. >So while current styles cannot necessarily be traced back before the 19th, >ie aran or such, some form of knitting or knitted shirts has. My husband >added that sailors have been knitting pullover/sweaters/whatever for >hundreds of years. I know knitting existed. I don't think I was quite clear enough. This lady was presenting a modern fisherman's sweater (which I don't think anyone has described in their examples) as completely period. My question is, is this accurate? Did sweaters of the time look like modern fisherman's sweaters? And while we're at it, did each person have his own knitting design? Thanks for all the information so far. It's very interesting reading! Kimberly Kimberly Gilbert kimberly@bluemarble.net "This is terrible news! Do you actually intend to kill your enemies? Can't you just speak sternly to them?" _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Kathryn L. Herb" Date: Tue, 02 Mar 1999 20:05:22 EST Subject: H-COST: Quick Medieval Mime Costume -- Help! - -Poster: "Kathryn L. Herb" A woman I work with asked me to come up with something for her son. His middle school class is doing a faire-type event in two weeks and he's been assigned to be a mime. His teacher suggested that he wear a black sweatsuit with a pair of white gloves, but she (like all the parents) wants to do something better than that. I have absolutely no clue -- this isn't my period. Could someone please offer me some advice as to what a mime would wear, if there's something particular to mimes? I have a catalog book of some Past Patterns if you can use any of them as examples. Thanks so much to anyone willing to bail me out on this! Kay Herb kayherb@juno.com ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: pnomail@bratshb.uwc.edu Date: Tue, 02 Mar 1999 19:10:46 -0600 Subject: H-COST: Folkware on sale - -Poster: pnomail@bratshb.uwc.edu I just left the Lark Books/Folkware Patterns web site. They are on sale through March 5 15% off. No connection, just like the clothes. DJ http://www.larkbooks.com/home.nav/fw/index.html Sorry, setting up links is beyond me, but here's the address. _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Jane Paunicka Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 20:15:51 -0500 Subject: H-COST: What is it? - -Poster: Jane Paunicka I need to find out what a "turkey back" is relating to costumes. Can anyone help me out with this term? Thanks, Jane Jane K. Paunicka Costume Shop Supervisor 114 Washington Hall Department of Communication and Theatre University of Notre Dame Notre Dame, IN 46556 (219)631-0633 _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Allison Thurman" Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 20:55:58 -0500 Subject: H-COST: costume design in film - -Poster: "Allison Thurman" got this in the mail today: Designing Dreams - Production and Costume Design in Film Today March 5-11 1999, Walter Reade Theater, Lincoln Center, presented by the Film Society of Lincoln Center. 165 West 65 Street NYC 212 875 5600 www.filmlinc.com the site lists the movies and designers that will be covered. there are also question and answer sessions, so this might be your big chance to ask them why they arent more accurate ;) if i were in nyc id be heading to this. might be worth a look! allison _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: SNSpies@aol.com Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 22:44:53 EST Subject: Re: H-COST: fishermen - -Poster: SNSpies@aol.com << ... presenting a modern fisherman's sweater (which I don't think anyone has described in their examples) as completely period. My question is, is this accurate? Did sweaters of the time look like modern fisherman's sweaters? >> In a word, no, to the best of my knowledge. Nancy _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: kat@grendal.rain.com Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 19:59:42 +0000 Subject: Re: H-COST: OOP Alcega - -Poster: kat@grendal.rain.com > > I have a copy of something called, 'Drafting & Constructing a Simple > >Doublet and Trunkhose of the Spanish Renaissance' by R.W. Trump, Published > >by Alfarhaugr Publishing Society, Eugene Oregon. 1991, ISBN 0-9623719-2-0. > >It relies heavily on the Alcega work including original patterns, > >reconstructed patterns, drawings from the original and recreations from the > >Alcega pattern book. I got it for 12.50 from Costume Con in LA some years > >ago. Perhaps it is still in existance. > >Hope this helps, cheers, jd > You can get it from www.greenduck.com It has instructions and so on for one > doublet but doesn't really cover much of the rest of Alcega's material. There are limited quantities available. Unfortunately, when they run out, that's all she wrote. Last year we found out (much to the distress of the publisher) that Bob had given the rights to someone else because of a mixup with Alfarhaugr.. However, he said that that person had done nothing with it but take Bob's clothes for rephotographing. None has come back to Bob and he was getting concerned. My friend had just taken over Alfarhaugr and was hoping to get permission to continue printing the doublet and trunkhose book, as well as several others. Until Bob gets the rights back from the guy (who also has the trunk of Bob's clothes), she's stuck. He gave her permission to sell off the current stock but, again, when that's out, she's stuck. (She's also one who is trying to get permission to reprint Alcega.) Kat Kat(June Russell) kat@grendal.rain.com Heu! Tintinnuntius meus Sonat! _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Julie Adams Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 20:34:28 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: H-COST: H-COST - loose gowns+kirtles - -Poster: Julie Adams >> I even find corsets and even bras >>>really uncomfortable while nursing too. >> >>Just out of curiousity, what did you wear while nursing? I'm due with my >>first in May and I'm tired of wearing my kirtle and loose gown to every >>event. While nursing (I still am, my son is 10 mos), I've been wearing my loose gowns, and also a Turkish 16th c middle class costume out of Vicellio. I unbutton the outer coat and I've put nursing slits in the shift. I also have worn my German campfollower dress and undone the front of the bodice and shift and nursed like that. Either way, I don't like them all that tight. But when I wear my loosegowns I usually wear a lightweight nursing bra, but I am just fine around the house with no bra at all. I've worn a corset while nursing (to a Victorian ball) and it was painful as the evening progressed. My breast size changes size dramatically and by the end of the evening I was engorged and quite uncomfortable. Julie Adams _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ End of h-costume-digest V4 #187 ******************************* _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME-DIGEST From ???@??? Wed Mar 03 15:49:57 1999 Received: from mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE (mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE [130.149.4.16]) by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA07667 for ; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 15:46:43 +0100 (MET) Received: from mail.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.15]) by mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10ICv4-0003fc-01; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 15:46:42 +0100 Received: from coal.bg.tu-berlin.de by mail.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Wed, 3 Mar 1999 15:46:32 +0100 Received: from mail2.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.14]) by mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10ICuq-0003fE-00; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 15:46:28 +0100 Received: from tubkom.prz.tu-berlin.de by mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Wed, 3 Mar 1999 15:46:20 +0100 Received: from mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE (mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE [130.149.4.16]) by tubkom.prz.tu-berlin.de (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA05677 for ; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 15:45:02 +0100 (MEZ) Received: from mail.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.15]) by mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10ICuY-0003er-01; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 15:46:10 +0100 Received: from server.indra.com by mail.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Wed, 3 Mar 1999 15:45:29 +0100 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.8.5/) with ESMTP id HAA21836; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 07:57:53 -0700 (MST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id HAA01165 for h-costume-digest-outgoing; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 07:43:54 -0700 (MST) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 07:43:54 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199903031443.HAA01165@indra.com> From: owner-h-costume-digest@indra.com To: h-costume-digest@indra.com Subject: h-costume-digest V4 #188 Reply-To: h-costume-digest@indra.com Errors-To: owner-h-costume-digest@indra.com Precedence: bulk h-costume-digest Wednesday, 3 March 1999 Volume 04 : Number 188 In this issue: Re: H-COST: 1500's Germany and corsets H-COST: Further info on Fab. Fit Dressforms H-COST: Riding astride, 1850's H-COST: fishermens sweaters Re: H-COST: "Queen Elizabeth and the Three Goddesses" H-COST: UK specific info - Fabulous Fit dressforms availability! Re: H-COST: Riding astride, 1850's Re: H-COST: OOP Alcega re: Re: H-COST: Corsets and Stays on the Frontier Re: H-COST: More about knitting (Historical Fashion in Detail) Re: H-COST: fishermens sweaters H-COST: re: david rickman Re: H-COST: re: david rickman ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Julie Adams Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 20:34:33 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: H-COST: 1500's Germany and corsets - -Poster: Julie Adams >-Poster: Carolyn Kayta Barrows > >IMHO, when people are asking about corsets in the 1500's they are asking >about English. The Italians, French, and Spanish were also into this >vertical restructuring thing. Not so the Germans, as you have noticed in >many pictures. I can't believe Germans went entirely braless and jiggly. >But their understructure is certainly more woman-shaped in front than it is >in the rest of Europe at this time. I just have noticed that the restructuring thing is mostly upper class court wear, that at home wear and middle and lower class women are more natural in lines. >For later-1500's Germans I use a stiffened underbodice, built like a >long-line bra but without cups. For earlier in the 1500's that U-shaped >neckline-and-shoulders band can be made structural if the bodice is canvas >lined. Yes, I know what you mean. I think most kirtles could provide enough support without need of a corset, sort of the equivalent of a period sports bra. The earlier Germans work fine building in a bit of support until you do one of those placket front ones. Then it seems that "women of substance" need some kind of corselet, still leaving the bust free, but its needed to firm the waistline or the placket tweeks. And if you build up the placket to be stiff, it doesn't look right either. And all the "Lucretia" pictures show a soft placket. I agree that the round neck and square necked ones can be built with enough support easily. Julie Adams _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Lady Eleanor Date: Tue, 02 Mar 1999 22:52:30 -0800 Subject: H-COST: Further info on Fab. Fit Dressforms - -Poster: Lady Eleanor Greetings to the list from Lady Eleanor, I made some futher enquiries to the Fabulous Fit Dressform folks, and thought that some here might find the additional pricing and such that I received in reply, useful. Pray, excuse the use of bandwidth. Thank you for your note! The Fitting System (pads and body cover) is sold separately for $85.00 + $9.95 Shipping. The bodies are $155.00 including the pads and covers. The body form is a rigid poly-urethane, however if use a bodywrap with it, which is the fiber skirt and bustier that is wrapped around the form before using the pads---you base would have some "give" and still be controlled. I'm not quite clear on what she means here...I may have to ask a few more questions. :-) I think you'd love working with that. At the moment, the Cast Iron Base Form is $285.00 and the Wooden Base Form is $185.00. Shipping is $28.95. Both forms are of the highest quality, are available in 4 sizes, and are completely pinnable. I would suggest trying the Cast Iron Base Form and then using the Wooden Base Form for the extra forms--as it's very pretty for showing. We are, at the moment, organizing representatives and have no one in the Seattle area. I hope I've answered your questions. We would love to hear from you. (800) 853-9644. Jill Enjoy, Lady Eleanor of Leycestershyre _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Melanie Wilson Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 03:01:26 -0500 Subject: H-COST: Riding astride, 1850's - -Poster: Melanie Wilson >Well, I do not agree with her that it takes much training or is very difficult at all. Side-saddle really doesn't take any special training th= at I know of and any rider can easily convert from astride to side-saddle. Staying central on the saddle is the most hard to adapt to. Your spine an= d the horses should be in line. Other than that, it isn't the most difficul= t thing in the world. > Anyway, IMHO, the side-saddle thing is often stated to indicate women couldn't participate in riding activiti= es historically. But if you look for it, there are women in hunt scenes ridi= ng side saddle from medieval times onward Hunting ? From medieval when ? Where ? I've seen nothing of hunting scene= s that early. I'd be interested to hear your sources. Whilst women did hunt= side saddle, it was not entirely approved of in earlier times,(certainly the view still expressed in 1860) they were considered Amazons and inclin= ed to pick up the rough ways of their male hunting companions. Socially it w= as expected to be gentile about ones riding, you tended to be saddled with some 'gental palfry ' or other rather than anything worth riding, there were exceptions of course Mrs Hayes rode a Zebra side saddle and I've hea= rd it said tyhey are unriddable. Anyway getting of costuming here interesting though it is. Should really = be on H Fem :) Mel Mel _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Melanie Wilson Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 03:01:24 -0500 Subject: H-COST: fishermens sweaters - -Poster: Melanie Wilson ><< ... presenting a modern fisherman's sweater (which I don't think = anyone has described in their examples) as completely period. My questi= on is, is this accurate? Did sweaters of the time look like modern fisherman's sweaters? >> Missed some of this but what period & what is classed as a modern sweater= ? Mel _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Connie Carroll" Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 03:37:41 +0000 Subject: Re: H-COST: "Queen Elizabeth and the Three Goddesses" - -Poster: "Connie Carroll" I don't understand, is this a painting? Kassandra NickKraken > -Poster: Carolyn Kayta Barrows > > > > BTW, does anyone know of a book/Web resource with a large > > reproduction of > >"Queen Elizabeth and the Three Goddesses"? > > One of those Goddesses has her feet on an embroidered shirt. > > > Kayta > ////.\\\ > ////-@@\\\ > (((( 7 ((( > | -- )))) > * ) ((((( > /----\ /---\ > > _________________________________________________________________ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with > the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME JUST CALL ME MISTRESS BUNNY _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Teddy Date: Wed, 03 Mar 1999 09:28:18 +0000 (GMT) Subject: H-COST: UK specific info - Fabulous Fit dressforms availability! - -Poster: Teddy Hello folks, The Fabulous fit system looked to be *exactly* what I needed so I contacted Vogue/Butterick who are UK distributors for them. GOOD NEWS! - In the current issue of the "Sewing with Butterick" magazine they are offering the kits of pads and covers on special for 56 pounds. BAD NEWS - They don't sell the dressforms (they claim it can be used on "any dressform" - which is probably true but doesn't solve the "too-flimsy" problem of most adjustable dressforms/stands!) ALSO - (bad news for me) they only sell the womens kits, and have no plans to make the mens versions available over here. It looks like anyone from the UK who wants a sturdier dressform that is adjustable, or the male version of the same, will have to order direct and pay the extra for shipping from the US... which probably means that I won't be able to afford it - Waaaaaaaah! Teddy (Trustworthy Evil-Bunny of Destiny, part-time Knave and Creature of air and darkness, apparently!) _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Lisa R." Date: Wed, 03 Mar 1999 06:13:41 -0500 Subject: Re: H-COST: Riding astride, 1850's - -Poster: "Lisa R." Hi I was just reading this & I have to comment: I can ride English astride pretty darn well & tried side-saddle riding once & couldn't even maintain a trot without feeling like I was going to fall off backwards. I mean, walking is no big deal, but proficient side-saddle riding does take time to learn. It uses entirely different muscles, & seems to involve grasping on with one's knees rather than with the calves and seat. And there are no great abundance of cheap side-saddles either. Melanie-do you ride aside? Lisa Melanie Wilson wrote: > -Poster: Melanie Wilson > > >Well, I do not agree with her that it takes much training or is very > difficult at all. Side-saddle really doesn't take any special training that > I know of and any rider can easily convert from astride to side-saddle. > > Staying central on the saddle is the most hard to adapt to. Your spine and > the horses should be in line. Other than that, it isn't the most difficult > thing in the world. > > > Anyway, IMHO, the side-saddle thing > is often stated to indicate women couldn't participate in riding activities > historically. But if you look for it, there are women in hunt scenes riding > side saddle from medieval times onward > > Hunting ? From medieval when ? Where ? I've seen nothing of hunting scenes > that early. I'd be interested to hear your sources. Whilst women did hunt > side saddle, it was not entirely approved of in earlier times,(certainly > the view still expressed in 1860) they were considered Amazons and inclined > to pick up the rough ways of their male hunting companions. Socially it was > expected to be gentile about ones riding, you tended to be saddled with > some 'gental palfry ' or other rather than anything worth riding, there > were exceptions of course Mrs Hayes rode a Zebra side saddle and I've heard > it said tyhey are unriddable. > > Anyway getting of costuming here interesting though it is. Should really be > on H Fem :) > > Mel > > Mel > _________________________________________________________________ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Kristin Page Date: Tue, 02 Mar 1999 09:35:03 Subject: Re: H-COST: OOP Alcega - -Poster: Kristin Page Yes, but the modern text is the part that's covered by modern copyright. This means a "new" translation from the Spanish (at which my competence ends with cooking terms) -- Some folk are doing sight translations from French and entering English using voice input and editing the text files for a cookbook but I don't know how they propose to combine the files into the book. This is a non-trivial project. Is there enough interest both on the production and on the purchase end to actually do it? At 06:38 AM 3/2/99 +0000, you wrote: > >-Poster: kat@grendal.rain.com > > >> If anyone has a copy of the ORIGINAL Alcega (or a copy of a copy of a copy >> of the original), and there's sufficient interest in doing the work to >> self-publish, that's an option. The original is public domain so copyright >> isn't a problem (translation might be -- how much text is there?). I've >> self-publishing for a fast copy/printer for more than ten years and would >> be willing to help on such a project. > >Actually, there's quite a bit of text. That text explains what is >going on in the cutting diagram. While you *can* do it without the >text, the text really adds a lot. > > >Kat > >Kat(June Russell) >kat@grendal.rain.com >Heu! Tintinnuntius meus Sonat! > _________________________________________________________________ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME > > _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "David W. Rickman" Date: Wed, 3 Mar 99 9:02:37 EST Subject: re: Re: H-COST: Corsets and Stays on the Frontier - -Poster: "David W. Rickman" Hello, I'm a bit overwhelmed. But thank you. Best wishes, David Rickman drickman@state.de.us Wrote: | | | -Poster: LuAnnMason@aol.com | | In a message dated 3/2/99 2:29:49 PM EST, | drickman@state.de.us writes: | | << I really only subscribed to H-costume to try to find | someone to advise me | on | Russian costume terminology, but I found a message that | referred to a book I | wrote, The Sutter's Fort Costume Manual, and felt that I | needed to respond. | | Most of you probably do not know this work. I wrote it | about ten years ago | for | the California Department of Parks and Recreation as a | guide to costuming for | the volunteer interpreters at this California state | historic site. In | somewhere around 200 pages, 90 costume reconstructions, | 86 pages of detailed | costume drawings and a great deal of text, I attempted to | document what was | worn by at least seven distinct cultures (as disparate as | Nez Perce Indians | and American sailors) who converged on this little site, | Sutter's Fort, | around | 1845. The book, in my opinion, was not all I had hoped it | would be. >> | | Mr. Rickman, | | While I, for one, did not personally agree with your | voiced opinions on | stays/corsets (I think they were probably more common than | stated, but far | from universal, so we're talking a matter of degree here), | I will have to say | that this purchase was one of the most well researched, | well illustrated, and | usable costuming tomes I've ever purchased. If it was not | all you'd hoped it | would be, it was still without a doubt, one of the very | best costuming book | purchases I've made in nearly 20 years of costuming. | Informative, documented, | easy to understand--it had it all. | | I urge anyone who has an interest in this time period and | location to | seriously consider buying Mr. Rickman's book. He's being | far too modest. | | :-) | | No affiliation, just a VERY pleased (and surprised) | customer-- | | LuAnn Mason | Vancouver, WA | | __________________________________________________________ | _______ | To leave this mailing list, send mail to | majordomo@indra.com | with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME | _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: " Firefly" Date: Wed, 03 Mar 1999 14:20:57 -0000 Subject: Re: H-COST: More about knitting (Historical Fashion in Detail) - -Poster: " Firefly" I think I saw that display getting set up. I noticed a curator putting what looked like a couple of JA drawings up in a case towards the back of the costume gallery. I didn't have the time to ask her what it was--now I just might have to route my next business trip to Africa through London! You know, this was my first trip back to London since working there 10 years ago. I ended up spending most of my time with a close family friend who happens to be a retired couture seamstress. Now while Betty has vowed she will never use a sewing machine again in her life, she does do alot of handwork and works part time in a needlework shop and was happy to take me on a tour of the major sewing shops. I was rather disapointed to see that home sewing is in a sharp decline there, unlike here where it is a popular pastime. While I did find that Liberty had some wonderful fabrics, the prices were outlandish--and the other stores I visited just offered poor quality for awful prices. I was also disapointed that I could not find much more in the way of costume books--aside from that Fashion in Detail book, there seems to be an obsession for "fashion" books--compilations of fashion photos of leading designers of the 50s, 60s a > > > > > > HotBot - Search smarter. http://www.hotbot.com _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Kimberly Gilbert Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 09:23:13 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: H-COST: fishermens sweaters - -Poster: Kimberly Gilbert Period as in generally medieval, which is how she was presenting it, and modern as in what you see in stores under the description of fisherman's sweater. Late twentieth century. Kimberly R. Gilbert kimberly@bluemarble.net "This is terrible news! Do you actually intend to kill your enemies? Can't you just speak sternly to them? On Wed, 3 Mar 1999, Melanie Wilson wrote: > Missed some of this but what period & what is classed as a modern sweater ? _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Gaelscot@aol.com Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 09:27:35 EST Subject: H-COST: re: david rickman - -Poster: Gaelscot@aol.com I would like to thank David Rickman for the thorough and reasoned explanation of his work in the reenactment book. I don't recreate that period, but like most of us I'm interested in all periods of reenactment. One doesn't often get to hear an author explain why he/she said something, especially something that others find controversial. So thanks, David! Gail Finke _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: The Mulders Date: Wed, 03 Mar 1999 08:48:54 -0600 Subject: Re: H-COST: re: david rickman - -Poster: The Mulders I'd like to know where I can get the book! _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ End of h-costume-digest V4 #188 ******************************* _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME-DIGEST From ???@??? Wed Mar 03 20:43:57 1999 Received: from mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE (mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE [130.149.4.16]) by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA10036 for ; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 20:38:29 +0100 (MET) Received: from mail.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.15]) by mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10IHTQ-0004np-00; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 20:38:28 +0100 Received: from coal.bg.tu-berlin.de by mail.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Wed, 3 Mar 1999 20:37:42 +0100 Received: from mail.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.15]) by mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10IHSd-0004mz-00; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 20:37:39 +0100 Received: from tubkom.prz.tu-berlin.de by mail.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Wed, 3 Mar 1999 20:37:28 +0100 Received: from mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE (mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE [130.149.4.16]) by tubkom.prz.tu-berlin.de (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA07625 for ; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 20:36:12 +0100 (MEZ) Received: from mail.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.15]) by mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10IHSN-0004mm-00; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 20:37:23 +0100 Received: from server.indra.com by mail.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Wed, 3 Mar 1999 20:37:03 +0100 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.8.5/) with ESMTP id MAA17525; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 12:49:38 -0700 (MST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id MAA27234 for h-costume-digest-outgoing; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 12:35:30 -0700 (MST) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 12:35:30 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199903031935.MAA27234@indra.com> From: owner-h-costume-digest@indra.com To: h-costume-digest@indra.com Subject: h-costume-digest V4 #189 Reply-To: h-costume-digest@indra.com Errors-To: owner-h-costume-digest@indra.com Precedence: bulk h-costume-digest Wednesday, 3 March 1999 Volume 04 : Number 189 In this issue: H-COST: Re: knitting madonna H-COST: Costume Collections in NYC re: H-COST: re: david rickman H-COST: uniquely you again H-COST: Mimes RE: H-COST: Costume Collections in NYC re: Re: H-COST: re: david rickman H-COST: Need Alcega citation re: H-COST: Costume Collections in NYC H-COST: Disconnecting (temporarily, I hope) Re: H-COST: Costume Collections in NYC H-COST: Riding astride, 1850's H-COST: fishermens sweaters Re: H-COST: Corsets and Stays on the Frontier Re: H-COST: Corsets and Stays on the Frontier ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Gaelscot@aol.com Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 09:52:41 EST Subject: H-COST: Re: knitting madonna - -Poster: Gaelscot@aol.com Someone once posted very convincingly that the few known paintings of "knitting madonnas" did not actually mean that anyone at the time was knitting sweaters. The argument was (if I remember correctly) that all these paintings were for professional knitting guilds, made up of men who knit (I think) hose and caps. The madonnas were supposed to be making "seamless garments," which was a biblical reference and not a depiction of an actual garment. I don't know who posted this, and I'm sorry to paraphrase. But I remember it being a good argument against jumping to conclusions about one or a few paintings without researching who made them and why. Just wanted to throw that in again. Gail Finke _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Kara Rodgers Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 09:56:23 -0500 (EST) Subject: H-COST: Costume Collections in NYC - -Poster: Kara Rodgers Hello! Does anybody know of any good costume collections in New York City? I have the chance to do some exploring this weekend and wanted to know if anyone had suggestions. Also, does anybody have any favorite fabric stores in the City? The one in my neighborhood has a limited selection. Thanks! Kara _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "David W. Rickman" Date: Wed, 3 Mar 99 10:01:45 EST Subject: re: H-COST: re: david rickman - -Poster: "David W. Rickman" Dear Gail, You are very welcome. It isn't often that authors get a chance to explain themselves. I'm just glad I had the opportunity. David Rickman drickman@state.de.us Wrote: | | | -Poster: Gaelscot@aol.com | | | | I would like to thank David Rickman for the thorough and | reasoned explanation | of his work in the reenactment book. I don't recreate that | period, but like | most of us I'm interested in all periods of reenactment. | One doesn't often get | to hear an author explain why he/she said something, | especially something that | others find controversial. So thanks, David! | | Gail Finke | | | __________________________________________________________ | _______ | To leave this mailing list, send mail to | majordomo@indra.com | with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME | _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Gaelscot@aol.com Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 09:57:16 EST Subject: H-COST: uniquely you again - -Poster: Gaelscot@aol.com Joanne Fabrics has Uniquely You dress forms on sale this month for $119. Also some other brands I can't recall. In case anyone wants to know. Gail Finke _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Susan Carroll-Clark" Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 10:05:07 -0500 Subject: H-COST: Mimes - -Poster: "Susan Carroll-Clark" Greetings! >I have absolutely no clue -- this isn't my period. Could someone please >offer me some advice as to what a mime would wear, if there's something >particular to mimes? I have a catalog book of some Past Patterns if you >can use any of them as examples. Mimes did exist in the Middle Ages, but I've not seen evidence of special clothing specific to just them. The black suit and white gloves thing is something popularized this century by the famous mime Marcel Marceau. What would identify someone as a mime in the Middle Ages wouldn't be the clothes, but rather the fact that he or she was doing mime. You might go with motley, which was what some street performers started wearing by the fourteenth century or so ("motley" just means "patchwork"--a costume made out of many different types of fabric, in bright colours.) I imagine a loose shirt belted at the waist and a pair of breeches or tights would work. Susan Carroll-Clark _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Wylie & Gail" Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 06:56:04 -0800 Subject: RE: H-COST: Costume Collections in NYC - -Poster: "Wylie & Gail" I'm going to NYC in April and I'd like to know about this too. Thanks, ~G - -----Original Message----- From: owner-h-costume@indra.com [mailto:owner-h-costume@indra.com]On Behalf Of Kara Rodgers Sent: Wednesday, 03 March, 1999 06:56 To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: H-COST: Costume Collections in NYC - -Poster: Kara Rodgers Hello! Does anybody know of any good costume collections in New York City? I have the chance to do some exploring this weekend and wanted to know if anyone had suggestions. Also, does anybody have any favorite fabric stores in the City? The one in my neighborhood has a limited selection. Thanks! Kara _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "David W. Rickman" Date: Wed, 3 Mar 99 10:04:14 EST Subject: re: Re: H-COST: re: david rickman - -Poster: "David W. Rickman" Hello, I don't sell the book (I don't even get royalties), but the Sutter's Fort Trade Store is at 2701 L Street, Sacramento, CA 95816. Their phone number is 916/323 - 7627. I hope that is still current. David Rickman drickman@state.de.us "The Mulders" Wrote: | | | -Poster: The Mulders | | | | I'd like to know where I can get the book! | | | __________________________________________________________ | _______ | To leave this mailing list, send mail to | majordomo@indra.com | with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME | _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Gregory Stapleton" Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 09:54:47 -0500 Subject: H-COST: Need Alcega citation - -Poster: "Gregory Stapleton" Greetings, All, I know I must have missed this early on in the discussion, but could someone please provide the citation for the Alcega book which has the modern english translation in it? My thanks, Gawain Kilgore _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "David W. Rickman" Date: Wed, 3 Mar 99 10:15:58 EST Subject: re: H-COST: Costume Collections in NYC - -Poster: "David W. Rickman" Hello Kara, My favorites are: The Costume Institute at the Metropolitan Museum of New York and the Brooklyn Museum. The New York Historical Society often has historic costumes on display and the Fashion Institute of Technology does a great deal of couture with occasional historical costumes. If you are into ethnic, the Natural History Museum and the American Indian Institute (Heye Foudation) and I believe there is a Ukranian Museum and who knows what other ethnic collections around the city. Enjoy! David Rickman drickman@state.de.us "Kara Rodgers" Wrote: | | | -Poster: Kara Rodgers | | | Hello! | | Does anybody know of any good costume collections in New | York City? I have | the chance to do some exploring this weekend and wanted to | know if anyone | had suggestions. | | Also, does anybody have any favorite fabric stores in the | City? The one in | my neighborhood has a limited selection. | | Thanks! | | Kara | | | __________________________________________________________ | _______ | To leave this mailing list, send mail to | majordomo@indra.com | with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME | _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "David W. Rickman" Date: Wed, 3 Mar 99 10:34:16 EST Subject: H-COST: Disconnecting (temporarily, I hope) - -Poster: "David W. Rickman" Hello, I have only been subscribing to this group for a few days, but I am afraid I will have to disconnect now. I am doing this at work, where they limit the number of messages one may receive, and, since subscribing, I regularly go over my limit several times a day. You folks are nothing if not enthusiastic about costume! I hope this will be a temporary absence, because I really do enjoy your discussions. I will try to get one of those Hot Mail accounts on my home computer, which really is my wife's work computer, so I can continue to follow the threads, so to speak. I am still quite interested in finding someone knowlegeable about Russian folk costume terminology and would be happy to correspond with other members off-site. So, not goodbye, I hope, but au revoir. David Rickman drickman@state.de.us _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: SAQUEEN@aol.com Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 11:35:15 EST Subject: Re: H-COST: Costume Collections in NYC - -Poster: SAQUEEN@aol.com Good list, David, on NYC museums. Don't forget the Museum of the City of New York - they also have a virtual exhibit at www.mcny.org for those who are not travelling like Kara! Sally Queen Costume Calendar Series http://www.sallyqueenassociates.com _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Melanie Wilson Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 13:07:02 -0500 Subject: H-COST: Riding astride, 1850's - -Poster: Melanie Wilson >Melanie-do you ride aside? Yes but not always, ie I do both. But not much of either right now, kids slowed my fun down :) My son is breaking a horse in for me this summer which I bred specifically for side saddle as, most TB horses struggle wit= h back problems when ridden aside. I've jumped, cantered, galloped etc etc aside. Oh not been mentioned as y= et NEVER EVER ride a horse known to rear aside. Mel _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Melanie Wilson Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 13:07:00 -0500 Subject: H-COST: fishermens sweaters - -Poster: Melanie Wilson >Period as in generally medieval, which is how she was presenting it, and modern as in what you see in stores under the description = of fisherman's sweater. Late twentieth century. = So the question is were the type of sweaters seen in stores now seen in medieval times ? I thought perhaps it was more alone the lines of traditional, island(Aran/Jersey/Guernsey etc) patterns and how long they have been see= n. Sorry missed a lot with computer problems Mel _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Susannah Eanes" Date: Wed, 03 Mar 1999 10:47:34 PST Subject: Re: H-COST: Corsets and Stays on the Frontier - -Poster: "Susannah Eanes" Kind readers of the list: Given to rather long-winded explanations myself when I feel one is needed, I have to respond to this one. I will try my best to keep it short. Mr. Rickman makes the claim that because we cannot prove that frontier women wore stays or corsets, we cannot say that they did. In doing so, he states that he consulted with some of our more well-known costume historians, albeit ten years ago. I MUST counter with the claim that if this question were put to these historians TODAY, with all the accumulated knowledge and the surfacing of MANY more primary sources, eg photographs, letters, AND ACTUAL PERIOD GARMENTS that we now know about, what would Ms. Severa, Ms. Kidwell, et al have to say in answer? You and I well know what they would say. We have actual examples in many libraries and museums of what we call today "sensible stays." Not as confining as more fashionable corsets, but providing support nonetheless. And since we even have Photographs of negro slaves in the 1840s wearing corsets, SOME of them must have worn them. So Mr. Rickman cannot make the claim, as he so casually does, that African American slave women NEVER wore them. This is the kind of "scholarly" writing that we must continue to re-educate re-enactors, interpreters, and even social historians, who ought to know beter, against. Mr. Rickman does not believe in using what archeologists call "the direct historical method," where the assumption is that if people were doing something previously, one would assume they continue to do it until we find evidence that they are not. Obviously, since we can easily prove with the available evidence that even working women in the 18th century wore stays, they must have continued to wear them in the 19th century. It is MUCH more logical to assume, if we are going to assume anything, that they DID wear corsets, since we can prove that they wore them BEFORE the period in question. I hope I am not appearing to be too antagonistic, but the assumption that since we 20th century people THINK because WE are uncomfortable in them, that corsets would have been too uncomfortable to wear while working, they must have left off with them. THIS IS A DIACENTRIC CONCLUSION. We would to better to assume that in the 1840s, women wore corsets for working, until we have conclusive evidence that sometime between the 18th century and 1840 they stopped. For more information on "working" foundations and sensible stays, please read Saundra Altman's excellent historical notes in Past Patterns Sensible Stays c. 1820s - 1860s. I am not a seller nor do I receive any compensation for mentioning this, I just wanted to point out that the evidence certainly does exist for working women in the first half of the 19th c. making their own stays. There are several patterns in this period for such stays in Godey's, one in particular submitted by a reader for publication. There are patterns and instructions for making stays in the Workwoman's Guide, c. 1838. They all look very much like the ones in Saundra's pattern. I had to get this out to tell the other side of the argument. I hope everyone will forgive my tirade, but as a student of women's social history and historic garments, it is a subject with which I deal on an everyday basis, and as such is very near and dear to my heart. Thank you. Susannah Susannah Eanes, Mantua Maker and Fine Tailoring The Tailor's Measure "We are only the trustees for those that come after us." --William Morris ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: MzScahlett@aol.com Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 14:34:16 EST Subject: Re: H-COST: Corsets and Stays on the Frontier - -Poster: MzScahlett@aol.com In a message dated 3/3/99 10:49:38 Pacific Standard Time, oh_susannah@hotmail.com writes: << And since we even have Photographs of negro slaves in the 1840s wearing corsets, SOME of them must have worn them. So Mr. Rickman cannot make the claim, as he so casually does, that African American slave women NEVER wore them. >> Are these house slaves or field hands? I've never seen a photo of a female field hand in a corset, but women whose lives were spent in service indoors were often provided a modest, but certainly more upper-class, wardrobe than anyone working in the fields. Mr. Rickman's argument is well-documented and reasonable. He has utilized period photos and letters - and you must remember he initially was confining his "assumptions" as you put it to a single location, Fort Sutter. I have read Ms. Severa's book, and you can easily see when women wore corsets and when they didn't. He refers to the use of scarves and ties, and a somewhat tighter bodice for support. That seems totally logical to me. I stepped in here, because it does seem that you are being argumentative for argument's sake, rather than just trying to set out a differing opinion. Particularly when you state: "This is the kind of '"scholarly" writing that we must continue to reeducate re-enactors, interpreters, and even social historians, who ought to know better, against." At best it reads as condescension, at worst an insult. I think the truth is somewhere in between, but one must remember that he appeared to be confining his argument to the poorest working women who were members of a particular class of society in a particular period. He specifically disclaims that women in a slightly better financial position would most likely have worn some sort of corseted undergarment. I am no expert, and do not wish to incite more argument, but you asked if you sounded unfairly hostile, and I thought perhaps you did, even if not meaning to. It just seems that this point of the history of when and if corsets were worn on the frontier by varying classes of women, is a slightly gray one, and that there is room for both opinions within reason. It also seems to me that if one opinion says "probably" and here is the evidence; and the other says "if there is not any direct evidence then it is wrong not to make assumptions" the former is frankly, more sound. _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ End of h-costume-digest V4 #189 ******************************* _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME-DIGEST From ???@??? Thu Mar 04 09:54:45 1999 Received: from mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE (mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE [130.149.4.16]) by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA10659 for ; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 23:25:31 +0100 (MET) Received: from mail.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.15]) by mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10IK53-0000oS-00; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 23:25:29 +0100 Received: from coal.bg.tu-berlin.de by mail.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Wed, 3 Mar 1999 23:25:15 +0100 Received: from mail.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.15]) by mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10IK4l-0000oK-00; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 23:25:11 +0100 Received: from tubkom.prz.tu-berlin.de by mail.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Wed, 3 Mar 1999 23:24:59 +0100 Received: from mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE (mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE [130.149.4.16]) by tubkom.prz.tu-berlin.de (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA10616 for ; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 23:23:44 +0100 (MEZ) Received: from mail.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.15]) by mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10IK4W-0000no-00; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 23:24:56 +0100 Received: from server.indra.com by mail.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Wed, 3 Mar 1999 23:24:14 +0100 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.8.5/) with ESMTP id PAA21798; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 15:36:50 -0700 (MST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id PAA06759 for h-costume-digest-outgoing; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 15:22:42 -0700 (MST) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 15:22:42 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199903032222.PAA06759@indra.com> From: owner-h-costume-digest@indra.com To: h-costume-digest@indra.com Subject: h-costume-digest V4 #190 Reply-To: h-costume-digest@indra.com Errors-To: owner-h-costume-digest@indra.com Precedence: bulk h-costume-digest Wednesday, 3 March 1999 Volume 04 : Number 190 In this issue: Re: H-COST: "Queen Elizabeth and the Three Goddesses" RE: H-COST: What is it? Re: H-COST: "Queen Elizabeth and the Three Goddesses" Re: H-COST: H-COST - loose gowns+kirtles H-COST: Project ideas Re: H-COST: Project ideas RE: H-COST: Project ideas re: H-COST: Costume Collections in NYC Re: H-COST: Project ideas Re: H-COST: Project ideas H-COST: Medieval hunting (was riding astride, 1850's) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Frank&Tracy Thallas JR" Date: Wed, 03 Mar 99 13:57:04 PST Subject: Re: H-COST: "Queen Elizabeth and the Three Goddesses" - -Poster: "Frank&Tracy Thallas JR" > I don't understand, is this a painting? > Kassandra NickKraken Yes - if memory serves, Her Majesty stands at one side, looking out at three Goddesses/Graces/fairly nekkid women disporting themselves on the lawn.... Liadain _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Hope H. Dunlap" Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 14:57:31 -0500 Subject: RE: H-COST: What is it? - -Poster: "Hope H. Dunlap" in the 1400's 1500's 1600's and 1700's and maybe earlier, I don't know, but "turkey" and "a la turque" showed up in a lot of clothing descriptors because of the interest in exotic (and comfortable) Turkish styles. Now, Cunnington has a picture of a "turkey hat," and I've seen somewhere reference to a "turkey robe," but not a "turkey back." Turkey shoes, slippers, and rugs were imported to Europe during this period. Do you think this might be the right track though? Can you give up a little more of the context in which you found the terminology? Hope H. Dunlap - -----Original Message----- From: owner-h-costume@indra.com [mailto:owner-h-costume@indra.com]On Behalf Of Jane Paunicka Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 1999 8:16 PM To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: H-COST: What is it? - -Poster: Jane Paunicka I need to find out what a "turkey back" is relating to costumes. Can anyone help me out with this term? Thanks, Jane Jane K. Paunicka Costume Shop Supervisor 114 Washington Hall Department of Communication and Theatre University of Notre Dame Notre Dame, IN 46556 (219)631-0633 ____________________________________________________________ _____ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Robin Netherton Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 15:25:38 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: H-COST: "Queen Elizabeth and the Three Goddesses" - -Poster: Robin Netherton On Wed, 3 Mar 1999, Frank&Tracy Thallas JR wrote: > Yes - if memory serves, Her Majesty stands at one side, looking > out at three Goddesses/Graces/fairly nekkid women disporting > themselves on the lawn.... I wrote this poster privately with a reference from memory, but now I have the book open in front of me. There's a nice big color reproduction on pages 98-99 of The Horizon Book of the Elizabethan World, a coffee-table oversize book available at many libraries. This book has lots of neat pictures you can't find easily elsewhere, but the caption/credit info is annoyingly incomplete in many cases. It gives no date, but I imagine Arnold does in the detail she reproduces of the goddess sitting on the shirt. In the full painting, Elizabeth is in a Spanish farthingale. Only one of the goddesses is naked (Venus); Juno and Minerva are in classical goddess attire. Elizabeth is presumably judging which of them is the most beautiful, though she holds the orb and scepter rather than the legendary golden apple. Two ladies-in-waiting are partially visible behind Elizabeth. - --Robin, who happens to be in the middle of an Elizabethan article _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: pame@nothinbut.net Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 15:24:08 +0000 Subject: Re: H-COST: H-COST - loose gowns+kirtles - -Poster: pame@nothinbut.net > >> I even find corsets and even bras > >>>really uncomfortable while nursing too. > >> > >>Just out of curiousity, what did you wear while nursing? I'm due with my > >>first in May and I'm tired of wearing my kirtle and loose gown to every > >>event. > I have nursed four children through various levels of involvement in re-enactments. The most comfortable ever was an italian ren deep burgundy velvet with a beautiful deep fur trim on the sleeves and hem. Boy did I feel like a goddess. I made it so that I could loosen the front and pop out to nurse. I covered with a light recieveing blanket when I felt the company would be uncomfortable otherwise I just did what I needed to do. By the way, I have found babies at events very accepted (more so than small children) and people have been very accepting of my nursing in public. If you would like to talk about this off line one on one please feel free to e-mail. Congratulations on your impending birth. Much luck. p. _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: AliaClaire@aol.com Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 15:48:30 EST Subject: H-COST: Project ideas - -Poster: AliaClaire@aol.com Ladies and gentlemen- For those of you that don't know me, I'm a historical costumer- and I'm also a senior in high school. Anyway, from now until May I have a senior project to work on in AP English that I'd like to tie in with costuming so I can keep it in my portfolio- but I'm totally stumped for ideas. I thought if any group would have ideas, it would be this one. I'm willing to put quite a bit of research into it, but any ideas would be great! Here's the criteria: - -something to do with literature - -something to do with costuming and most challenging - -something that will keep 24 seniors awake for the better part of an hour in the month before we graduate. I've thought of things like costumes in Madame Bovary and such, but I knew there is such a great deal of other stuff out there. I'm trying to avoid Regency, since I hate Jane Austin and already did one 30-page paper on Regency costumes earlier this year. ANYTHING would be appreciated! - -Alison Stacy AliaClaire@aol.com Canton, Ohio _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: aleed Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 16:01:10 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: H-COST: Project ideas - -Poster: aleed How about costume in Chaucer's Canterbury tales? I haven't read it in quite a while, but from what I remember he does use clothing to denote station, status and personality. Or you could do the same thing with Shakespeare. There's a great book out there, "Costume in the Drama of Shakespeare and his Contemporaries", that really covers this topic well. Drea On Wed, 3 Mar 1999 AliaClaire@aol.com wrote: > > -Poster: AliaClaire@aol.com > > Ladies and gentlemen- > > For those of you that don't know me, I'm a historical costumer- and I'm also a > senior in high school. Anyway, from now until May I have a senior project to > work on in AP English that I'd like to tie in with costuming so I can keep it > in my portfolio- but I'm totally stumped for ideas. I thought if any group > would have ideas, it would be this one. I'm willing to put quite a bit of > research into it, but any ideas would be great! Here's the criteria: > > -something to do with literature > -something to do with costuming > and most challenging > -something that will keep 24 seniors awake for the better part of an hour in > the month before we graduate. > > I've thought of things like costumes in Madame Bovary and such, but I knew > there is such a great deal of other stuff out there. I'm trying to avoid > Regency, since I hate Jane Austin and already did one 30-page paper on Regency > costumes earlier this year. > > ANYTHING would be appreciated! > > -Alison Stacy > AliaClaire@aol.com > Canton, Ohio > _________________________________________________________________ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME > _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Hope H. Dunlap" Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 16:17:00 -0500 Subject: RE: H-COST: Project ideas - -Poster: "Hope H. Dunlap" I read a neat piece on the characters in The Merchant of Venice once, and comparing Itlaian, Jewish, and English costuming of the 4-6 main characters More than that I can't remember. Is the Italian Renaissance old hat now that we've had R&J and the Cinderella film? Tales from the Gengi, the 17th Century Japanese novel by a noblewoman would be fun to research, costumes easy to sew, but dramatic, and if the clothes don't keep them awake, the sword play and beheadings will. They've probably read Beowolf, but from a costume standpoint, it might give a revered story new meaning. That incredible Icelandic saga and many Celtic legends, ditto. Hope H. Dunlap - -----Original Message----- From: owner-h-costume@indra.com [mailto:owner-h-costume@indra.com]On Behalf Of aleed Sent: Wednesday, March 03, 1999 4:01 PM To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: H-COST: Project ideas - -Poster: aleed How about costume in Chaucer's Canterbury tales? I haven't read it in quite a while, but from what I remember he does use clothing to denote station, status and personality. Or you could do the same thing with Shakespeare. There's a great book out there, "Costume in the Drama of Shakespeare and his Contemporaries", that really covers this topic well. Drea On Wed, 3 Mar 1999 AliaClaire@aol.com wrote: > > -Poster: AliaClaire@aol.com > > Ladies and gentlemen- > > For those of you that don't know me, I'm a historical costumer- and I'm also a > senior in high school. Anyway, from now until May I have a senior project to > work on in AP English that I'd like to tie in with costuming so I can keep it > in my portfolio- but I'm totally stumped for ideas. I thought if any group > would have ideas, it would be this one. I'm willing to put quite a bit of > research into it, but any ideas would be great! Here's the criteria: > > -something to do with literature > -something to do with costuming > and most challenging > -something that will keep 24 seniors awake for the better part of an hour in > the month before we graduate. > > I've thought of things like costumes in Madame Bovary and such, but I knew > there is such a great deal of other stuff out there. I'm trying to avoid > Regency, since I hate Jane Austin and already did one 30-page paper on Regency > costumes earlier this year. > > ANYTHING would be appreciated! > > -Alison Stacy > AliaClaire@aol.com > Canton, Ohio > ____________________________________________________________ _____ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME > ____________________________________________________________ _____ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Michel McCabe Date: Wed, 03 Mar 1999 16:18:27 -0500 Subject: re: H-COST: Costume Collections in NYC - -Poster: Michel McCabe The Museum of the City of NY has some wonderful period clothing. As for shopping, The garment district. _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Lady Eleanor Date: Wed, 03 Mar 1999 13:41:25 -0800 Subject: Re: H-COST: Project ideas - -Poster: Lady Eleanor Greetings, The last requirement would seem to me to be the most difficult! :-) At any rate...I agree with Drea. If 'twere I, the obvious choice would Shakespeare. There are many great scenarios there! How about: Twelfth Night...Woman dresses a young man, after being ship wrecked...falls in love with a Count...while dressed as a man... You can see some of this in the current hit film, Shakespeare in love...Gwyneth Paltrow plays the young man's part. The Tempest...Wizard and his daughter inhabit deserted island for years until a group of their country-men wash ashore. There's a great "creature" in it called Caliban, child of the blue-eyed hag/witch Sycorax. Could be fun to do some costuming work here. Midsummer Night's Dream...Hippolyta, an Amazon Queen, and two sets of of young lovers. When I did the play, a thousand years ago, we did it in Greek style costume...there's also Titania and Oberon..Queen and King of the Fairies...Bottom, who gets to become "half-donkey/ass"...and others. So, you could do a lot of interesting Classical and/or fantasy stuff. Macbeth...Good for more Medieval style garbs...Scotsmen, murderers, and a wonderfully vicious social climbing Lady Macbeth! Romeo and Juliet...Of course!...if your bent runs toward Italian Renaissance. Zifferelli's film done in the 70's is a good example of late 15th c. Northern Italian. Also, it's contemporary from the point of view of the recent modern version done on film, which perhaps some of you class might have already seen. :-) Merchant of Venice...Shylock, a Jewish money-lender and userer takes advantage of his Christian client and runs smack into the law which favored Christians over minorities, a deceitful daughter who runs off with his money and a Christian, and so forth. Maybe you could tie in something about the Jewish persecutions which are rampant through history...or do something on Jewish clothing, which naturally varied considerably from area to area...maybe a tie-in to modern day persecutions. Antony and Cleopatra...if your preference might be for things Egyptian and Roman...Oriental exoticism runs afoul of Mega-macho-Roman expansionist Imperialism. One of my particular favorites! Almost anything by Tom Stoppard...Rosencrantz and Guildenstern Are Dead...where two minor characters from Hamlet get a play of their own detailing their bungling and troubles. Super play! Very funny! If you like German legends..there are always the great Teutonic legends from which Wagner drew his inspiration for his Ring of the Niebelung...I mean, there are giants, gods, goddesses, dwarfs, warriors, Valyries...a whole host of interesting characters. It France moves you...try anything from Moliere...done in high late 18th century style...a la Marie Antoinette! For Russian...try Boris Goudonov...great Russian Imperial style here...and a popular character in literature...also an opera by the same name. More Greek ideas might be Medea...mother murders her two children to get even with her husband! Electra...who with her brother murder their parents...or anything from Sophocles, or Euripides. I could go on and on, but you get the idea! :-) Good luck, and let us know how it goes. Best wishes, Eleanor AliaClaire@aol.com wrote: > > -Poster: AliaClaire@aol.com > > Ladies and gentlemen- > > For those of you that don't know me, I'm a historical costumer- and I'm also a > senior in high school. Anyway, from now until May I have a senior project to > work on in AP English that I'd like to tie in with costuming so I can keep it > in my portfolio- but I'm totally stumped for ideas. I thought if any group > would have ideas, it would be this one. I'm willing to put quite a bit of > research into it, but any ideas would be great! Here's the criteria: > > -something to do with literature > -something to do with costuming > and most challenging > -something that will keep 24 seniors awake for the better part of an hour in > the month before we graduate. > > I've thought of things like costumes in Madame Bovary and such, but I knew > there is such a great deal of other stuff out there. I'm trying to avoid > Regency, since I hate Jane Austin and already did one 30-page paper on Regency > costumes earlier this year. > > ANYTHING would be appreciated! > > -Alison Stacy > AliaClaire@aol.com > Canton, Ohio > _________________________________________________________________ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: AliaClaire@aol.com Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 16:50:31 EST Subject: Re: H-COST: Project ideas - -Poster: AliaClaire@aol.com In a message dated 3/3/99 3:59:44 PM EST, aleed@dnaco.net writes: << Or you could do the same thing with Shakespeare. There's a great book out there, "Costume in the Drama of Shakespeare and his Contemporaries", that really covers this topic well. >> Ohhhhh, I like this one!!!!!! I was going to do something on Ophelia/Juliet/Desdimona/Cordelia (but figured I'd put everyone to sleep with literary analysis), and I do love Shakespeare. Keep them coming! This is great! - -Alison Stacy AliaClaire@aol.com Canton, Ohio _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Kara Rodgers Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 17:22:31 -0500 (EST) Subject: H-COST: Medieval hunting (was riding astride, 1850's) - -Poster: Kara Rodgers Dear Mel, I just happened to glancing through "Medieval Women: an illuminated address book" poublished by Little, Brown, and Company (I was innocently looking for my cousin's telephone number), when under the letter A I noticed a hunting scene. It shows a woman riding a white horse at what looks like a fast pace taking aim with a crossbow at a lion, a leopard, a bear and a wolf. The caption states: "Hunter using a crossbow, Giovani Boccacio, "De claris muilieribus" MS. 381, F. 62 French, second half of fifteenth century The Pierpon Morgan Library, New York" Unfortunately, I don't know anything else about the source (i.e. whether a woman would really do something like this and still be propper), but the address book bills itself as showing what life was really like for a Medieval woman. It looks like she's riding astride (she's definitely wearing a long gown). Also to ad to the debate, under I-J, there is a picture titled" defending the castle" and it shows 4 armoured men and a woman on horseback. Like the men, the woman is happily hacking away at folks standing around in the courtyard. She's riding astride and wearing a dress. This illumination is also from late 15th Century France. So when did sidesaddles come into being? Kara _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ End of h-costume-digest V4 #190 ******************************* _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME-DIGEST From ???@??? Thu Mar 04 09:54:46 1999 Received: from mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE (mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE [130.149.4.16]) by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA11069 for ; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 01:46:18 +0100 (MET) Received: from mail.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.15]) by mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10IMHJ-000435-00; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 01:46:17 +0100 Received: from coal.bg.tu-berlin.de by mail.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Thu, 4 Mar 1999 01:46:05 +0100 Received: from mail.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.15]) by mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10IMH4-00042z-00; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 01:46:02 +0100 Received: from tubkom.prz.tu-berlin.de by mail.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Thu, 4 Mar 1999 01:45:49 +0100 Received: from mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE (mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE [130.149.4.16]) by tubkom.prz.tu-berlin.de (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA11424 for ; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 01:44:34 +0100 (MEZ) Received: from mail.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.15]) by mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10IMGo-00042f-00; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 01:45:46 +0100 Received: from server.indra.com by mail.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Thu, 4 Mar 1999 01:45:43 +0100 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.8.5/) with ESMTP id RAA20300; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 17:58:30 -0700 (MST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id RAA00683 for h-costume-digest-outgoing; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 17:44:21 -0700 (MST) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 17:44:21 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199903040044.RAA00683@indra.com> From: owner-h-costume-digest@indra.com To: h-costume-digest@indra.com Subject: h-costume-digest V4 #191 Reply-To: h-costume-digest@indra.com Errors-To: owner-h-costume-digest@indra.com Precedence: bulk h-costume-digest Wednesday, 3 March 1999 Volume 04 : Number 191 In this issue: Re: H-COST: Medieval hunting (was riding astride, 1850's) Re: H-COST: Project ideas Re: H-COST: Medieval hunting (was riding astride, 1850's) H-COST: women riding astride in late 15th-c. French mss illuminations RE: H-COST: Re:Foams...reg. vs hard?? Hunh? Re: H-COST: Project ideas Re: H-COST: Project ideas H-COST: medieval hunting sidesaddles H-COST: re: project Re: H-COST: Discount costuming book Re: H-COST: Project ideas ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: The Purple Elephant Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 09:07:50 +1030 (CST) Subject: Re: H-COST: Medieval hunting (was riding astride, 1850's) - -Poster: The Purple Elephant On Wed, 3 Mar 1999, Kara Rodgers wrote: > > I just happened to glancing through "Medieval Women: an illuminated > address book" poublished by Little, Brown, and Company (I was innocently > looking for my cousin's telephone number), when under the letter A I > noticed a hunting scene. It shows a woman riding a white horse at what > looks like a fast pace taking aim with a crossbow at a lion, a leopard, a > bear and a wolf. The caption states: > > "Hunter using a crossbow, > Giovani Boccacio, "De claris muilieribus" > MS. 381, F. 62 > French, second half of fifteenth century > The Pierpon Morgan Library, New York" > > Unfortunately, I don't know anything else about the source (i.e. whether > a woman would really do something like this and still be propper), but the > address book bills itself as showing what life was really like for a > Medieval woman. It looks like she's riding astride (she's definitely > wearing a long gown). > > Also to ad to the debate, under I-J, there is a picture titled" defending > the castle" and it shows 4 armoured men and a woman on horseback. Like > the men, the woman is happily hacking away at folks standing around in the > courtyard. She's riding astride and wearing a dress. This illumination is > also from late 15th Century France. > > So when did sidesaddles come into being? > In "Eleanor of Aquitaine" by M. Mead it describes how, when trying to elude Henry II by disguising herself as a man, the chroniclers of the time say very little of the incident except for one who registers his disgust that the Queen of England should be caught so, and so vulgarly riding astride. (This was in the late 12th century) IIRC most of the illustrations of Chaucer's female pilgrims show them riding side saddle. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Claire F. Clarke "What is this world if, full of care, Physicist, writer, We have no time to stand and stare?" and non environmentally Robert Louis Stevenson friendly substance. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: The Purple Elephant Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 09:15:04 +1030 (CST) Subject: Re: H-COST: Project ideas - -Poster: The Purple Elephant On Wed, 3 Mar 1999 AliaClaire@aol.com wrote: > > -something to do with literature > -something to do with costuming > and most challenging > -something that will keep 24 seniors awake for the better part of an hour in > the month before we graduate. > "Fanny Hill" is a book that claims to describe the life of a prostitute in (I think) the 18th century. It was written then. I've only read bits and pieces myself, so I can't recall how much it discussed costume, but it would certainly keep your class awake *grin* (Note that it is fairly graphic in an old fashioned sort of a way, so it's probably not the thing to do if your parents/teachers tend to the puritanical) - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Claire F. Clarke "What is this world if, full of care, Physicist, writer, We have no time to stand and stare?" and non environmentally Robert Louis Stevenson friendly substance. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Jessica Wilbur" Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 17:48:25 -0500 Subject: Re: H-COST: Medieval hunting (was riding astride, 1850's) - -Poster: "Jessica Wilbur" > > -Poster: The Purple Elephant > > On Wed, 3 Mar 1999, Kara Rodgers wrote: > > > > > I just happened to glancing through "Medieval Women: an illuminated > > address book" poublished by Little, Brown, and Company (I was innocently > > looking for my cousin's telephone number), when under the letter A I > > noticed a hunting scene. It shows a woman riding a white horse at what > > looks like a fast pace taking aim with a crossbow at a lion, a leopard, a > > bear and a wolf. The caption states: > > > > "Hunter using a crossbow, > > Giovani Boccacio, "De claris muilieribus" > > MS. 381, F. 62 > > French, second half of fifteenth century > > The Pierpon Morgan Library, New York" > > > > Unfortunately, I don't know anything else about the source (i.e. whether > > a woman would really do something like this and still be propper), but the > > address book bills itself as showing what life was really like for a > > Medieval woman. It looks like she's riding astride (she's definitely > > wearing a long gown). > > > > Also to ad to the debate, under I-J, there is a picture titled" defending > > the castle" and it shows 4 armoured men and a woman on horseback. Like > > the men, the woman is happily hacking away at folks standing around in the > > courtyard. She's riding astride and wearing a dress. This illumination is > > also from late 15th Century France. > > > > So when did sidesaddles come into being? > > > In "Eleanor of Aquitaine" by M. Mead it describes how, when trying to > elude Henry II by disguising herself as a man, the chroniclers of the > time say very little of the incident except for one who registers his > disgust that the Queen of England should be caught so, and so vulgarly > riding astride. (This was in the late 12th century) > IIRC most of the illustrations of Chaucer's female pilgrims show them > riding side saddle. Also, this month's page in the Medieval Women calendar shows a woman riding aside. She's wearing a Burgundian-type gown and a huge hennin. The information at the bottom is: "War Begins Between Arnold von Luterin and his Consort Lydie (detail). Fifteen Leaves from Histoire de Charles Martel. 83.MP.149 (Ms. Ludwig XIII, 6), leaf 11, Flemish, 1467- 72/73. The J. Paul Getty Museum, Los Angeles." I don't really know what a side saddle looks like, and it's kind of hard to see in this picture. Maybe someone else can confirm if that's what it really is. - --Jessica _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Carole Frick Date: Wed, 03 Mar 1999 17:03:16 -0600 Subject: H-COST: women riding astride in late 15th-c. French mss illuminations - -Poster: Carole Frick Dear Kara, One thing to be careful about in these illustrations is the text that they illustrate. Boccaccio's _De Claris Mulieribus_ (On Remarkable Women) was written in the mid-14th century, but its subject matter was historical women from the past, for the most part.....ancient queens, Amazons, goddesses, all powerful women from antiquity.....and therefore, the women riding astride, even though depicted in contemporary 15th-c. European dress, probably represents a woman from a bygone era. Picturing her riding astride may have been simply the illuminator's fantasy about how such a female historical personage (Diana, comes to mind) would have ridden a horse, into battle, say. Just something to think about here. Best, Dr. Carole Collier Frick Department of Historical Studies Southern Illinois University _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Hulett Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 15:02:34 -0800 Subject: RE: H-COST: Re:Foams...reg. vs hard?? Hunh? - -Poster: Hulett - -----Original Message----- From: Lady Eleanor [SMTP:hekav@gte.net] Sent: Monday, March 01, 1999 7:43 AM To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: H-COST: Re:Foams...reg. vs hard?? Hunh? I used soft foam or batting for the filling, the kind you get at Walmart. The smaller parts were hard foam. Though I've lost some weight now and will have to make another so I'm hoping to improve on the design a little. The shipping place near me does hard foam injecting for shipping fragil objects and I want to try taking my ductape form in the see how much it would cost to inject it. Or just the limbs again. The only other thing I would change is adding a fabric cover so I'd have something to pin to. cheers, jd - -Poster: Lady Eleanor "Regular foam"..."hard foam"??? Could you supply any brand names here? Thanks, Lady Eleanor Hulett wrote: > > -Poster: Hulett > > That is exactly what I did on my whole dress form. It worked great. (I did > fill the body cavity with regular foam though, just the legs and arms were > hard foam) > cheers, jd > > -----Original Message----- > From: Marie Schulte [SMTP:mschulte@post.its.mcw.edu] > Sent: Monday, March 01, 1999 6:56 AM > To: h-costume@indra.com > Subject: Re: H-COST: foot forms > > -Poster: Marie Schulte > > > -Poster: "Kathryn L. Herb" > > > > And to expand on your inquiry, does anyone know where I can get foot > > forms with the lower leg attached? I'm doing custom woolen hose (woven > > Kay- > > A friend of mine who makes shoes makes individual lasts of a person's feet > by doing a version of the duct tape/t-shirt pattern. He uses a sock. > After taping it up and cutting it off the person, he tapes it back into a > 'foot-lower leg form' and fills it with the aerosol foam insulation. > Maybe that will work for you. > > _________________________________________________________________ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME > > _________________________________________________________________ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Margo Anderson Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 14:57:45 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: H-COST: Project ideas - -Poster: Margo Anderson l. Anyway, from now until May I have a senior project to >work on in AP English that I'd like to tie in with costuming so I can keep it >in my portfolio- but I'm totally stumped for ideas. I thought if any group >would have ideas, it would be this one. I'm willing to put quite a bit of >research into it, but any ideas would be great! Here's the criteria: > >-something to do with literature >-something to do with costuming >and most challenging >-something that will keep 24 seniors awake for the better part of an hour in >the month before we graduate. How about writing about the Romantics, and how many of the Goth styles current today are based on them? Margo (who was a Goth when she was in high school....but it was the 70's, and on one else was) _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Margo Anderson Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 15:02:28 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: H-COST: Project ideas - -Poster: Margo Anderson >> >"Fanny Hill" is a book that claims to describe the life of a prostitute >in (I think) the 18th century. It was written then. I've only read >bits and pieces myself, so I can't recall how much it discussed costume, >but it would certainly keep your class awake *grin* Wow. Even my very open mind snaps shut at the thought of presenting this book for high school seniors! As I recall, it does have some very interesting costume detail, but the scene I found most fascinating was when Fanny is awaiting a new client, and the madam of the bordello informs her that he's got a strange perversion. He does...he wants to do it with both of them NAKED!!! margo _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Melanie Wilson Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 18:10:21 -0500 Subject: H-COST: medieval hunting sidesaddles - -Poster: Melanie Wilson >Unfortunately, I don't know anything else about the source (i.e. whether= a woman would really do something like this and still be propper), but th= e address book bills itself as showing what life was really like for a Medieval woman. It looks like she's riding astride (she's definitely wearing a long gown). It is an involved debate did they or didn't they fight, there is much information to suggest at least some did, and more to suggest women were taught about stratergies etc. What has she got as head gear ? >Also to ad to the debate, under I-J, there is a picture titled" defendin= g the castle" and it shows 4 armoured men and a woman on horseback. Like the men, the woman is happily hacking away at folks standing around in th= e courtyard. She's riding astride and wearing a dress. This illumination is= also from late 15th Century France. Unusual although there is more evidence from what I've seen of French or Spanish women doing so. I'd love to know who it was & where the pic came from. But you do say they are both astride. >So when did sidesaddles come into being? Depends exactly what you mean side saddle. A sort of seat where women sat= sideways on the horse was around in Medieval times, Catherine de Mercini had a lot to do with more active riding with, from memory just 1 horn, th= en the saddle developed as time went on. I'd have to dig my books out and it= is late now. Tomorrow maybe. Mel _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Gaelscot@aol.com Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 19:00:53 EST Subject: H-COST: re: project - -Poster: Gaelscot@aol.com Sorry you hate Jane Austen! I never read her before I turned 30, maybe she's one of those tastes we acquire later in life? Okay, here's an idea. How about "A Tale of Two Cities"? Fun and very exciting, though a little long. You could dress up as Madame Defarge, the peasant woman who went to every execution and knit the names of the dead aristocrats into a long scarf or something. You could be dressed in old rags and hold up parts of an aristocratic woman's or man's clothing, and maybe even a rented wig, and talk about cursed aristocrats in general and book characters in particular. Or here's another one... "Uncle Tom's Cabin." Just read it last year myself, and now I know how it got thousands of people to become abolitionists! A great read and very Dickensian (probably what brought it to mind) in feel. Anyway, there's a touching scene early on where Eliza, a slave, runs away with her little boy to keep him from being sold. The first place she finds shelter is in a Kentucky U.S. Senator's house. Or maybe a Congressman. Anyway, the wife gives her some spare clothes, and also gives her the clothes of her own little boy, who had recently died. She couldn't bear to part with them, and for the first time she found a mother more wretched than she was. You could dress up as her and show everyone the little boy's clothes you were going to give away. And it has an Ohio connection! I'm assuming you want to dress up. :-) I seem to be more dramatic than the other people who are writing in, I guess that tells you something about me! Whatever you do, please let us know! Gail Finke _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Bob Kille Date: Wed, 03 Mar 1999 17:08:56 -0700 Subject: Re: H-COST: Discount costuming book - -Poster: Bob Kille Please reserve 1 copy of "After a Fashion". I will send a check tomorrow for $25. Thank you, Carolyn Kille 13 Isla Court, Roswell, NM 88201 Lavolta Press wrote: > > -Poster: Lavolta Press > > We found in our warehouse 10 copies of the first edition of _After a > Fashion: How to Reproduce, Restore, and Wear Vintage Styles_. This > book covers making historic costumes from Middle Ages to Art Deco, and > buying, cleaning, mending, and otherwise dealing with vintage clothes > from Victorian to Art Deco. Both men's and women's clothes are > discussed. > > Further information is on our web site: > > http://www.best.com/~lavolta/index.htm > > Because a second edition has been published, we are selling these 10 > copies (hopefully there will be no more) at a discount price of $21 > (plus sales tax for California residents), plus $4 shipping. If you > would like to buy one, please e-mail to reserve it and pay within 1 week > (there is an order form on our web site you can use). Please, don't > reserve a copy unless you will pay for it within the stated time period. > > Thanks for your time, > > Fran Grimble > > _________________________________________________________________ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: The Purple Elephant Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 11:14:05 +1030 (CST) Subject: Re: H-COST: Project ideas - -Poster: The Purple Elephant On Wed, 3 Mar 1999, Margo Anderson wrote: > > Wow. Even my very open mind snaps shut at the thought of presenting this > book for high school seniors! > Oh I don't think it's much worse than some of my sister's "grot romances" as we term then (not that I read them .... much *grin*), you know the ones with the garish covers depicting semi-nude persons in passionate embraces....Of course, as I said, I've only read bits and pieces, mainly at the start. > As I recall, it does have some very interesting costume detail, but the > scene I found most fascinating was when Fanny is awaiting a new client, and > the madam of the bordello informs her that he's got a strange perversion. > He does...he wants to do it with both of them NAKED!!! > *laugh* Oh that's so cool. I just love little details like that, that remind us our forebears had such different mindsets..... - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Claire F. Clarke "What is this world if, full of care, Physicist, writer, We have no time to stand and stare?" and non environmentally Robert Louis Stevenson friendly substance. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ End of h-costume-digest V4 #191 ******************************* _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME-DIGEST From ???@??? Thu Mar 04 10:04:31 1999 Received: from mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE (mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE [130.149.4.16]) by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA13568 for ; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 09:55:07 +0100 (MET) Received: from mail.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.15]) by mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10ITuM-0004vf-00; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 09:55:06 +0100 Received: from coal.bg.tu-berlin.de by mail.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Thu, 4 Mar 1999 09:55:03 +0100 Received: from mail.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.15]) by mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10ITuG-0004vb-00; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 09:55:00 +0100 Received: from tubkom.prz.tu-berlin.de by mail.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Thu, 4 Mar 1999 09:54:58 +0100 Received: from mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE (mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE [130.149.4.16]) by tubkom.prz.tu-berlin.de (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA13559 for ; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 09:53:42 +0100 (MEZ) Received: from mail.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.15]) by mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10ITuA-0004v5-01; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 09:54:54 +0100 Received: from server.indra.com by mail.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Thu, 4 Mar 1999 09:53:43 +0100 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.8.5/) with ESMTP id CAA19073; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 02:06:42 -0700 (MST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id BAA17520 for h-costume-digest-outgoing; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 01:52:14 -0700 (MST) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 01:52:14 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199903040852.BAA17520@indra.com> From: owner-h-costume-digest@indra.com To: h-costume-digest@indra.com Subject: h-costume-digest V4 #192 Reply-To: h-costume-digest@indra.com Errors-To: owner-h-costume-digest@indra.com Precedence: bulk h-costume-digest Thursday, 4 March 1999 Volume 04 : Number 192 In this issue: H-COST: corseting mannequins H-COST: set nomail Re: H-COST: Medieval hunting (was riding astride, 1850's) Re: H-COST: medieval hunting sidesaddles H-COST: Fashion Designers Re: H-COST: Digby's "Elizabethan Embroidery" Re: H-COST: Project ideas Re: H-COST: Mimes H-COST: Medieval hunting (was riding astride, 1850's) Re: H-COST: Medieval hunting (was riding astride, 1850's) Sutter's Fort Costume Manual, was Re: H-COST: david rickman Re: H-COST: Medieval hunting (was riding astride, 1850's) RE: H-COST: Re:Foams...reg. vs hard?? Hunh? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Gia Gavino-Gattshall" Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 16:42:44 -0800 Subject: H-COST: corseting mannequins - -Poster: "Gia Gavino-Gattshall" This discussion about soft vs. hard dressmakers dummies has me wondering about my old one. It's a 'sorta soft' foam thing that has a cloth cover that is zipped on. I bought it at a 2nd hand store for about $5. It *used* to be my size; it's now considerably smaller than I am. I like to use it 'cuz I can stick pins in it when I need to, when draping. I plan on doing another 'cover' to bring it up to my size, but also make it so that it can be corseted. I was wondering which kind of batting I should use: Polyester or cotton batting? Or would some other type of filler work better? Or does it even matter? I don't remember if anyone has addressed this question before... Thanks! Gia/Giacinta who seems to always have questions... _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Allison Thurman" Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 22:29:33 -0500 Subject: H-COST: set nomail - -Poster: "Allison Thurman" how do i set my h-costume digest to nomail? im going on vacation and dont want to unsub - how can i make it just stop for 10 days? thanks in advance! allison _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Julie Adams Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 19:35:17 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: H-COST: Medieval hunting (was riding astride, 1850's) - -Poster: Julie Adams Mel, I'm really too lazy to go do a thorough analysis and research again, but I've seen plenty of hunt scenes with women at full gallop (and some while seated behind men). They seem to be more common in tapestries than in paintings. From what I recall back when I was into side-saddle research, Queen Elizabeth I was also very into hunting and rode quite well side-saddle. When I was looking into it more closely (my side-saddle interest and activity peaked over 15 yrs ago), there were actually quite a few pictoral examples of women in the middle ages and Renaissance hunting on horseback. A friend of mine, Aurie Bradley, had a book we were going through that also had lots of 18th and 19th c training info. Quite a lot on women's riding and training horses to jump under side-saddle. Much of their jump training happened from a standstill (must have been so uncomfortable to lurch and hop over obstacles like that!) Anyway, there was quite a lot of info out there when I started looking closely. The book (I really can't remember the name) was a repro of a horsmanship manual and even had riding habit info. I wouldn't be surprised if many of the women who did ride in the hunt were considered to be on the "wild" side, and in the early period those who did ride the hunt would have probably been noblewomen. But in any case, when I looked closely for examples of women riders, there were more than I expected. Julie Adams _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Lee Carter Date: Wed, 03 Mar 1999 19:46:29 -0800 Subject: Re: H-COST: medieval hunting sidesaddles - -Poster: Lee Carter At 06:10 PM 3/3/99 -0500, you wrote: > >-Poster: Melanie Wilson > (snip) >>So when did sidesaddles come into being? > >Depends exactly what you mean side saddle. A sort of seat where women sat >sideways on the horse was around in Medieval times, Catherine de Mercini >had a lot to do with more active riding with, from memory just 1 horn, then >the saddle developed as time went on. I'd have to dig my books out and it >is late now. Tomorrow maybe. > >Mel If I can go through my mind for trivia...through the cobwebs... Richard II 's first wife brought the "side saddle" to England....from France if my memory serves me right _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Penny E. Ladnier" Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 23:15:18 -0500 Subject: H-COST: Fashion Designers - -Poster: "Penny E. Ladnier" I don't know how many of you are keeping up with A&E's Biography this week... but it is worth watching. Monday was Tiffany's, Tuesday was Calvin Klein, tonight is Cartier, Thursday is Faberge, and Friday is Coco Chanel. The show on March 19th is about Gwyneth Paltrow and William Shakespeare. For more information check out http://www.biography.com/ Today, I received this month's W fashion magazine. There is a photo layout of an article called "Time and Again". The by line is "Back in the Twenties, it was 'Anything goes,' but that theory is even truer today. This spring's fashion is so diverse, it can be used to re-create the looks of the past ten decades- and we have." This article consists of twenty pages and shows how current day fashion designers are creating looks to simulate past decades of fashion. After looking through the whole magazine, you can really see the influence of other fashion periods on current fashions. It is kinda fun, looking at an outfit and picking out the decade that the designer was thinking of when creating. For those of you not familiar with W magazine, it is a monthly publication on current fashion. It features many of the high end designers but not those "Far-out there" fashions you see on the runways. I can tell you, it is an excellent magazine, 550 pages monthly. (My kids think it is a catalog.) It has some of the most beautiful fashion ads you have ever seen. Fairchild Publications, prints the magazine and their website offers a free issue. Go to http://fairchildpub.com/w/home.htm . ( I have no dealing with the magazine. I just really appreciate a nice presentation of fashion.) Catch you all later...Penny http://www.costumegallery.com _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Cynthia Bucheger" Date: Wed, 03 Mar 1999 23:05:38 -0600 Subject: Re: H-COST: Digby's "Elizabethan Embroidery" - -Poster: "Cynthia Bucheger" > > > > Beating Digby's drum again, he shows several surviving stomachers > > > >in his "Elizabethan Embroidery"..... I want to thank those that recommended this book. I just got my copy from interlibrary loan today and the three projects I have recently entered and was wanting to punch up my documentation for, are all covered in this book, the stomachers, my blackwork sampler and a surprised reference to a 'lucette' for the cords on sweet bags and "used for costume in place of buttons" THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU..... Now if I can just find a copy for my private use.... Alexandria _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: kathleen@niagara.com Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 01:24:14 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: H-COST: Project ideas - -Poster: kathleen@niagara.com >-something to do with literature >-something to do with costuming >and most challenging >-something that will keep 24 seniors awake for the better part of an hour in >the month before we graduate. Well, the third criteria is pretty daunting! For the first two, why not go through Chaucer's Canterbury Tales introductions and discuss the characterization as shown through the costuming. (The Nun is particularly fascinating in terms of costume speaking volumes...you could even just contrast the Nun and the Wife) Lots of sexual innuendo might even help with that third criterium... I believe it's in Sir Gawain and the Green Knight that I found a huge long passage about his armour, but the language is more difficult. () _/)(\_ "Tehee!" quod she, and clapte the wyndow to /~~\ /____\ _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: kathleen@niagara.com Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 01:24:22 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: H-COST: Mimes - -Poster: kathleen@niagara.com > >Mimes did exist in the Middle Ages, but I've not seen evidence of special >clothing specific to just them. Unless you get into pantomime, which I believe is 17th century. (It's been so long since I took that course! Argh!) Not exactly medieval, but it might be fun to dress in a version of the Pierrot suit (the traditional black and white with the pointy hat, which is later still, I think) I'm going to *try* and remember to check with the theatre company who provided the teachers. () _/)(\_ "Tehee!" quod she, and clapte the wyndow to /~~\ /____\ _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Melanie Wilson Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 01:42:54 -0500 Subject: H-COST: Medieval hunting (was riding astride, 1850's) - -Poster: Melanie Wilson > I just happened to glancing through "Medieval Women: an illuminated > address book" poublished by Little, Brown, and Company (I was innocentl= y > looking for my cousin's telephone number), when under the letter A I > noticed a hunting scene. It shows a woman riding a white horse at what > looks like a fast pace taking aim with a crossbow at a lion, a leopard,= a > bear and a wolf. The caption states: For some reason this didn't come through on my first receipt of this posting. I think there is something being lost in translation. Hunting to me means hunting to hounds, nothing else. I didn't consider hunting as described above. >In "Eleanor of Aquitaine" by M. Mead it describes how, when trying to elude Henry II by disguising herself as a man, the chroniclers of the time say very little of the incident except for one who registers his disgust that the Queen of England should be caught so, and so vulgarly riding astride. (This was in the late 12th century) IIRC most of the illustrations of Chaucer's female pilgrims show them riding side saddle. Side saddle or astride, is not sitting sideways on a horse, it is, to me= at least, riding with a saddle equiped to assist in active riding. I assume the crusaders who were reputedly found to have breasts etc(ie th= ey were found to be girlies !) when their armour was removed after they had been killed were riding astride, otherwise the confusion wouldn't have arrisen :0 Also I'm pretty sure you could maintain a seat & fight even wi= th a medern side saddle and reletivly light weapons such as early medieval ones. I train horseball (a form of rugby on horseback) and am involved wi= th jousting teams (see many of my friends in films such as First Knight etc)= and riding aside would not, I believe, work ! Mel I don't mean to sound off with those comments just wanted to clarify what= I was answering to.:) Mel _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: cynthia j ley Date: Thu, 04 Mar 1999 01:57:00 EST Subject: Re: H-COST: Medieval hunting (was riding astride, 1850's) - -Poster: cynthia j ley This month's Medieval Women calendar shows at top at lady riding sidesaddle, c. 1467. Arlys ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Joan M Jurancich Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 23:57:16 -0700 (MST) Subject: Sutter's Fort Costume Manual, was Re: H-COST: david rickman - -Poster: Joan M Jurancich At 08:48 AM 03/03/1999 -0600, The Mulders wrote: > >-Poster: The Mulders > > > >I'd like to know where I can get the book! > The Sutter's Fort Costume Manual is available from the Sutter's Fort Trade Store in Sacramento. You can email the store manager, Dori Cavala, at dcavala@mother.com for information on price and shipping charge. >From an on-line Sutter's Fort docent, Joan Jurancich Sacramento, CA joanj@quiknet.com _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: cynthia j ley Date: Thu, 04 Mar 1999 01:57:00 EST Subject: Re: H-COST: Medieval hunting (was riding astride, 1850's) - -Poster: cynthia j ley Point of clarification--the March picture for the Medieval Women calendar has the caption: "War begins between Arnold von Luterin and his consort Lydie." It looks like a meeting before the battle begins. Arlys On Thu, 4 Mar 1999 09:07:50 +1030 (CST) The Purple Elephant writes: > >-Poster: The Purple Elephant > >On Wed, 3 Mar 1999, Kara Rodgers wrote: > >> >> I just happened to glancing through "Medieval Women: an illuminated >> address book" poublished by Little, Brown, and Company (I was >innocently >> looking for my cousin's telephone number), when under the letter A I >> noticed a hunting scene. It shows a woman riding a white horse at >what >> looks like a fast pace taking aim with a crossbow at a lion, a >leopard, a >> bear and a wolf. The caption states: >> >> "Hunter using a crossbow, >> Giovani Boccacio, "De claris muilieribus" >> MS. 381, F. 62 >> French, second half of fifteenth century >> The Pierpon Morgan Library, New York" >> >> Unfortunately, I don't know anything else about the source (i.e. >whether >> a woman would really do something like this and still be propper), >but the >> address book bills itself as showing what life was really like for a >> Medieval woman. It looks like she's riding astride (she's definitely >> wearing a long gown). >> >> Also to ad to the debate, under I-J, there is a picture titled" >defending >> the castle" and it shows 4 armoured men and a woman on horseback. >Like >> the men, the woman is happily hacking away at folks standing around >in the >> courtyard. She's riding astride and wearing a dress. This >illumination is >> also from late 15th Century France. >> >> So when did sidesaddles come into being? >> >In "Eleanor of Aquitaine" by M. Mead it describes how, when trying to >elude Henry II by disguising herself as a man, the chroniclers of the >time say very little of the incident except for one who registers his >disgust that the Queen of England should be caught so, and so vulgarly >riding astride. (This was in the late 12th century) > IIRC most of the illustrations of Chaucer's female pilgrims show them >riding side saddle. > >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >Claire F. Clarke "What is this world if, full of care, >Physicist, writer, We have no time to stand and stare?" >and non environmentally Robert Louis Stevenson >friendly substance. >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _________________________________________________________________ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME > ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Hope H. Dunlap" Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 21:34:24 -0500 Subject: RE: H-COST: Re:Foams...reg. vs hard?? Hunh? - -Poster: "Hope H. Dunlap" For about 8 dollars, you can buy an aerosol foam product in Home Depot. It's sold next to the styrofoam board insulation, and is for pfouffing into cracks to keep out the cold, rodents, fix mistakes, etc. My son made a cave and a dragon by breaking up styrofoam board insulation into blocks, sticking the parts together rather haphazardly with toothpicks to get the general shape, and then squirted the aerosol foam onto it to hold it all in place. It comes out of the can the consistency of stiff meringue, and set up as sturdy as a bomb shelter. I think you could build a house for humans using this method. And, was it quick and fun! Such a satisfying result. One to two cans would easily fill a duct tape double, although, it would be cheaper to pack in some scrap styrofoam first and then use the aerosol just for morter. It set up hard in a few hours. Hope H. Dunlap - -----Original Message----- From: owner-h-costume@indra.com [mailto:owner-h-costume@indra.com]On Behalf Of Hulett Sent: Wednesday, March 03, 1999 6:03 PM To: 'h-costume@indra.com' Subject: RE: H-COST: Re:Foams...reg. vs hard?? Hunh? - -Poster: Hulett - -----Original Message----- From: Lady Eleanor [SMTP:hekav@gte.net] Sent: Monday, March 01, 1999 7:43 AM To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: H-COST: Re:Foams...reg. vs hard?? Hunh? I used soft foam or batting for the filling, the kind you get at Walmart. The smaller parts were hard foam. Though I've lost some weight now and will have to make another so I'm hoping to improve on the design a little. The shipping place near me does hard foam injecting for shipping fragil objects and I want to try taking my ductape form in the see how much it would cost to inject it. Or just the limbs again. The only other thing I would change is adding a fabric cover so I'd have something to pin to. cheers, jd - -Poster: Lady Eleanor "Regular foam"..."hard foam"??? Could you supply any brand names here? Thanks, Lady Eleanor Hulett wrote: > > -Poster: Hulett > > That is exactly what I did on my whole dress form. It worked great. (I did > fill the body cavity with regular foam though, just the legs and arms were > hard foam) > cheers, jd > > -----Original Message----- > From: Marie Schulte [SMTP:mschulte@post.its.mcw.edu] > Sent: Monday, March 01, 1999 6:56 AM > To: h-costume@indra.com > Subject: Re: H-COST: foot forms > > -Poster: Marie Schulte > > > -Poster: "Kathryn L. Herb" > > > > And to expand on your inquiry, does anyone know where I can get foot > > forms with the lower leg attached? I'm doing custom woolen hose (woven > > Kay- > > A friend of mine who makes shoes makes individual lasts of a person's feet > by doing a version of the duct tape/t-shirt pattern. He uses a sock. > After taping it up and cutting it off the person, he tapes it back into a > 'foot-lower leg form' and fills it with the aerosol foam insulation. > Maybe that will work for you. > > ____________________________________________________________ _____ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME > > ____________________________________________________________ _____ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ____________________________________________________________ _____ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ____________________________________________________________ _____ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ End of h-costume-digest V4 #192 ******************************* _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME-DIGEST From ???@??? Mon Mar 08 13:11:14 1999 Received: from mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE (mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE [130.149.4.16]) by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA20989 for ; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 18:23:41 +0100 (MET) Received: from mail.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.15]) by mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10IbqW-0005Sk-00; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 18:23:40 +0100 Received: from coal.bg.tu-berlin.de by mail.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Thu, 4 Mar 1999 18:22:52 +0100 Received: from mail2.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.14]) by mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10Ibpg-0005Rs-00; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 18:22:48 +0100 Received: from tubkom.prz.tu-berlin.de by mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Thu, 4 Mar 1999 18:22:41 +0100 Received: from mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE (mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE [130.149.4.16]) by tubkom.prz.tu-berlin.de (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA19207 for ; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 18:21:26 +0100 (MEZ) Received: from mail.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.15]) by mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10IbpW-0005Rn-00; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 18:22:38 +0100 Received: from server.indra.com by mail.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Thu, 4 Mar 1999 18:21:16 +0100 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.8.5/) with ESMTP id KAA26436; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 10:33:43 -0700 (MST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id KAA13931 for h-costume-digest-outgoing; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 10:18:37 -0700 (MST) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 10:18:37 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199903041718.KAA13931@indra.com> From: owner-h-costume-digest@indra.com To: h-costume-digest@indra.com Subject: h-costume-digest V4 #193 Reply-To: h-costume-digest@indra.com Errors-To: owner-h-costume-digest@indra.com Precedence: bulk Status: O h-costume-digest Thursday, 4 March 1999 Volume 04 : Number 193 In this issue: RE: H-COST: women riding astride in late 15th-c. French mss illuminations H-COST: Fabric sources in Austin and NYC H-COST: Fisherman's sweaters H-COST: I'm ba-a-a-a-a-c-k... (&C-C20) H-COST: Fisherman's sweaters, more H-COST: Medieval hunting (was riding astride, 1850's) H-COST: Weaving terms Re: H-COST: corseting mannequins Re: H-COST: corseting mannequins Re: H-COST: Re:Foams...reg. vs hard?? Hunh? Re: H-COST: Fisherman's sweaters, more Re: H-COST: Re:Foams...reg. vs hard?? Hunh? Re: H-COST: Re:Foams...reg. vs hard?? Hunh? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Hope H. Dunlap" Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 21:51:38 -0500 Subject: RE: H-COST: women riding astride in late 15th-c. French mss illuminations - -Poster: "Hope H. Dunlap" The Sythian women, Roxelanas, and ancient female warriers from Ubekistan all rode astride. They were horsebreeders, traders, and mounted warriers, and the women couldn't marry until they killed a male from the enemy in battle. Their costumes were pants and ankle length bloomers with an overdress with slits up the side. A short jacket or vest or both was worn over the overdress, and I don't know what all for really cold weather. These mounted women were real, spanned most of Asia for at least 5,000 years, were definitely contemporary in the 15th Century, so picturing a woman riding astride may not have accurately represented European women, but they didn't have to go back to ancient Greece for examples. Hope H. Dunlap - -----Original Message----- From: owner-h-costume@indra.com [mailto:owner-h-costume@indra.com]On Behalf Of Carole Frick Sent: Wednesday, March 03, 1999 6:03 PM To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: H-COST: women riding astride in late 15th-c. French mss illuminations - -Poster: Carole Frick Dear Kara, One thing to be careful about in these illustrations is the text that they illustrate. Boccaccio's _De Claris Mulieribus_ (On Remarkable Women) was written in the mid-14th century, but its subject matter was historical women from the past, for the most part.....ancient queens, Amazons, goddesses, all powerful women from antiquity.....and therefore, the women riding astride, even though depicted in contemporary 15th-c. European dress, probably represents a woman from a bygone era. Picturing her riding astride may have been simply the illuminator's fantasy about how such a female historical personage (Diana, comes to mind) would have ridden a horse, into battle, say. Just something to think about here. Best, Dr. Carole Collier Frick Department of Historical Studies Southern Illinois University ____________________________________________________________ _____ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Teddy Date: Thu, 04 Mar 1999 10:35:42 +0000 (GMT) Subject: H-COST: Fabric sources in Austin and NYC - -Poster: Teddy Hello, A friend of mine, here in the UK, will soon be making a business trip to the US. She will be spending some time in Austin (Sp?), Texas and in NYC.... She won't have much time for "shopping around" and will probably be relying on public transport so do any of you have any recommendations of good sources of fabrics? She's in a 15th Century group and will probably looking for fabrics for a (male) Turkish costume of the period as well as for female European (possibly italian) garb. Any ideas? Thanks in advance Teddy _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Lynn Carpenter Date: Thu, 04 Mar 1999 06:33:25 -0500 Subject: H-COST: Fisherman's sweaters - -Poster: Lynn Carpenter 'The Sacred History of Knitting', by Heinze Kiewe, claims fisherman's sweaters were knitted to different patterns so drowned fishermen could be identified by their sweaters. Unfortunately, his book is one of those "suspect" references. A review of this book is available at: http://devbio-mac1.ucsf.edu/knit/reviewsP.html Lynn _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Christopher Ballis" Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 14:45:01 +1100 Subject: H-COST: I'm ba-a-a-a-a-c-k... (&C-C20) - -Poster: "Christopher Ballis" Hello, list, Guess what, I made it back to Australia after Costume-Con and a whirlwind look at North America thanks to the wonderful United Airlines (gotta plug the C-C20 sponsors). There will be information posted about Costume-Con 20 very shortly. A Progress report will be available in the next few weeks - it will be a quickie initial report numbered something goofy like PRprep to fill the gap before the real PR1 comes out. Thanks to all the hospitality I bumped into while America-ing. Although, you could have been kinder and NOT voted for our Australian Costume-Con bid - - the work, aghh! Just for the record, C-C20 will be in Melbourne, Australia, the weekend of February 16, 2002AD, the con will run between Friday and Monday inclusive and members will be able to get to International Fashion Week events, if they are interested, in the days after the convention. Prices will be firmed in the initial Progress Report, anyone who wants to get a deposit down now or buy supporting membership can use one of the old pre-support forms and cross out and scribble in amounts as required. Supporting membership is US$25, I'm tired, I'm just of the United Airlines (another plug) jet and can't be bothered to do the exchance rate stuff now so there. See yas, - -C. _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Lynn Carpenter Date: Thu, 04 Mar 1999 06:49:08 -0500 Subject: H-COST: Fisherman's sweaters, more - -Poster: Lynn Carpenter Of course, as soon as I sent the last message, a search found me a longer reference, which addresses the "Is a fisherman's sweater medieval?" question more fully: http://members.aol.com/marroberts/arans.html Lynn _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Melanie Wilson Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 07:02:46 -0500 Subject: H-COST: Medieval hunting (was riding astride, 1850's) - -Poster: Melanie Wilson >Mel, I'm really too lazy to go do a thorough analysis and research agai= n, Me too especially for somebody elses benefit. > Renaissance hunting on horseback. Renaiisance isn't Medieval > A friend of mine, Aurie Bradley, had a book we were going through that also had lots of 18th and 19th c training info. Quite a lot = on women's riding and training horses to jump under side-saddle. = Of course they did in the 18th 19th C, but that isn't medieval either. >Much of their jump training happened from a standstill (must have been so uncomfortable= to lurch and hop over obstacles like that!) Anyway, there was quite a lot= of info out there when I started looking closely. The book (I really can= 't remember the name) was a repro of a horsmanship manual and even had ridin= g habit info. Yeah I'm sure I have an original, I have a copy of all the English side saddle books printed as far as I know upto 1985 or so, after that dosen't= interest me. Sorry can't deal with this period is anything that isn't now, rather than= a specified period, this isn't related to costume anyway, so no more comments from me on it. Hope the original poster got some ideas for her costumes. Mel _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: ches Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 09:20:32 -0600 (CST) Subject: H-COST: Weaving terms - -Poster: ches Please reply privately to snicker@pinkpig.com This is a request from a herald. So please help him if you can. Remember to send the answers to him directly as this is NOT a textiles list and I am not on a textiles list to forward the email to. :) Date: Tue, 02 Mar 1999 11:31:22 -0600 From: Snicker Reply-To: wetlands-l@thewetlands.org To: wetlands-l@thewetlands.org Subject: Weaving patterns? Okay, HELP! I'm trying to get a listing of patterns that cloth can be woven into... Things like "tartan" and "twill" that describe the way the threads go together in the weave. I'm so totally clueless in this, that I don't even know how to properly ask for what I need :P But even if you can't give me any direct help, indirect pointers to reference material will also be appreciated. Thanks in advance! snicker@pinkpig.co Sincerely, F. Havas ches@io.com _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Michel McCabe Date: Thu, 04 Mar 1999 11:03:39 -0500 Subject: Re: H-COST: corseting mannequins - -Poster: Michel McCabe >I plan on doing another 'cover' to bring it up to my size, but also make it >so that it can be corseted. I was wondering which kind of batting I should I would suggest the somewhat "stiffer" foam that is commonly used for cussions on a couch or chair. It is realtively easy to cut and could be "sculpted" to better fit your need. _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Lady Eleanor Date: Thu, 04 Mar 1999 08:16:31 -0800 Subject: Re: H-COST: corseting mannequins - -Poster: Lady Eleanor What about sheet foam rubber? I comes in a number of thicknesses...1/4", 1/2", 1", and up. It comes on rolls, easy to cut with scissors if not too thick...isn't expensive, fairly easy to find, and might give a more uniform thickness than batting...altho' depends on the batting. A thought here...*not* worked out...it just occured to me...If weight gain is more or less uniform, I wonder if one couldn't shape the foam by cutting in four sections like a close fitting dress, from a pattern, and then glue the seams together...butting the blunt edges, and leave the back seam open so that it could be put on the form. OR...maybe you would have to handsew the foam together with large stitches...blunt edge to blunt edge. Then put your new fabric cover over to hold it in place. That would reduce some of the unecessary bulk of wrapping flat foam around a rounded shape like a dress form. Then if some particular areas need a little more...maybe borrow from the Fab. Fit. idea, and slip an extra piece under the required spot. Just a thought. Lady Eleanor Michel McCabe wrote: > > -Poster: Michel McCabe > > >I plan on doing another 'cover' to bring it up to my size, but also make it > >so that it can be corseted. I was wondering which kind of batting I should > > I would suggest the somewhat "stiffer" foam that is commonly used for cussions > on a couch or chair. It is realtively easy to cut and could be "sculpted" > to better fit your need. > > _________________________________________________________________ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Lady Eleanor Date: Thu, 04 Mar 1999 08:20:09 -0800 Subject: Re: H-COST: Re:Foams...reg. vs hard?? Hunh? - -Poster: Lady Eleanor Aha! That stuff! OK, now I know what you mean. :-) Thanks! Guess I'd have to make two dress forms then...one soft for corsetting, and one hard like this method. Hmmmm...off to ponder in the corner, again. Lady Eleanor Hope H. Dunlap wrote: > > -Poster: "Hope H. Dunlap" > > For about 8 dollars, you can buy an aerosol foam product in > Home Depot. It's sold next to the styrofoam board > insulation, and is for pfouffing into cracks to keep out the > cold, rodents, fix mistakes, etc. My son made a cave and a > dragon by breaking up styrofoam board insulation into > blocks, sticking the parts together rather haphazardly with > toothpicks to get the general shape, and then squirted the > aerosol foam onto it to hold it all in place. It comes out > of the can the consistency of stiff meringue, and set up as > sturdy as a bomb shelter. I think you could build a house > for humans using this method. And, was it quick and fun! > Such a satisfying result. One to two cans would easily fill > a duct tape double, although, it would be cheaper to pack in > some scrap styrofoam first and then use the aerosol just for > morter. It set up hard in a few hours. > > Hope H. Dunlap > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-h-costume@indra.com > [mailto:owner-h-costume@indra.com]On > Behalf Of Hulett > Sent: Wednesday, March 03, 1999 6:03 PM > To: 'h-costume@indra.com' > Subject: RE: H-COST: Re:Foams...reg. vs hard?? Hunh? > > -Poster: Hulett > > -----Original Message----- > From: Lady Eleanor [SMTP:hekav@gte.net] > Sent: Monday, March 01, 1999 7:43 AM > To: h-costume@indra.com > Subject: H-COST: Re:Foams...reg. vs hard?? Hunh? > > I used soft foam or batting for the filling, the kind you > get at Walmart. > The smaller parts were hard foam. Though I've lost some > weight now and will > have to make another so I'm hoping to improve on the design > a little. The > shipping place near me does hard foam injecting for shipping > fragil objects > and I want to try taking my ductape form in the see how much > it would cost > to inject it. Or just the limbs again. The only other thing > I would change > is adding a fabric cover so I'd have something to pin to. > cheers, jd > -Poster: Lady Eleanor > > "Regular foam"..."hard foam"??? Could you supply any brand > names here? > > Thanks, > Lady Eleanor > > Hulett wrote: > > > > -Poster: Hulett > > > > That is exactly what I did on my whole dress form. It > worked great. (I > did > > fill the body cavity with regular foam though, just the > legs and arms > were > > hard foam) > > cheers, jd > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Marie Schulte [SMTP:mschulte@post.its.mcw.edu] > > Sent: Monday, March 01, 1999 6:56 AM > > To: h-costume@indra.com > > Subject: Re: H-COST: foot forms > > > > -Poster: Marie Schulte > > > > > -Poster: "Kathryn L. Herb" > > > > > > And to expand on your inquiry, does anyone know where I > can get foot > > > forms with the lower leg attached? I'm doing custom > woolen hose (woven > > > > Kay- > > > > A friend of mine who makes shoes makes individual lasts of > a person's > feet > > by doing a version of the duct tape/t-shirt pattern. He > uses a sock. > > After taping it up and cutting it off the person, he tapes > it back into a > > 'foot-lower leg form' and fills it with the aerosol foam > insulation. > > Maybe that will work for you. > > > > > ____________________________________________________________ > _____ > > To leave this mailing list, send mail to > majordomo@indra.com > > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME > > > > > ____________________________________________________________ > _____ > > To leave this mailing list, send mail to > majordomo@indra.com > > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME > > ____________________________________________________________ > _____ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to > majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME > > ____________________________________________________________ > _____ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to > majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME > > _________________________________________________________________ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: SNSpies@aol.com Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 11:44:08 EST Subject: Re: H-COST: Fisherman's sweaters, more - -Poster: SNSpies@aol.com << http://members.aol.com/marroberts/arans.html >> I just tried this URL and it was not found on my server ... which is AOL! Ingvild/Nancy _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Michel McCabe Date: Thu, 04 Mar 1999 11:58:01 -0500 Subject: Re: H-COST: Re:Foams...reg. vs hard?? Hunh? - -Poster: Michel McCabe At 08:20 AM 3/4/99 -0800, you wrote: > >-Poster: Lady Eleanor > >Aha! That stuff! OK, now I know what you mean. :-) >Thanks! Guess I'd have to make two dress forms then...one >soft for corsetting, and one hard like this method. >Hmmmm...off to ponder in the corner, again. > >Lady Eleanor > Why two forms? Simply make or buy a form slightly smaller than your actualy size and pad it out - getting the best of both worlds, a sturdy inner form and a squishable outer form. This way your single base form could also be used for more mundane fitting simply by adjusting the padding. Incisdentally I think your idea of cutting the form using a pattern is inspired and well worth following up. I think I would use duct tape for the seams. _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Lady Eleanor Date: Thu, 04 Mar 1999 09:13:43 -0800 Subject: Re: H-COST: Re:Foams...reg. vs hard?? Hunh? - -Poster: Lady Eleanor Michel McCabe wrote: > Hi Michel, > Why two forms? Oh, well...'cause we were initially talking about the foam for use inside the "duct tape" form as a filler. A different kind of dress form with a different problem. Two different threads running here. :-) Hope (I think) suggested using batting to fill out the hollow...which makes a nice squishable form that would take a corset. But then she also mentioned using a hard foam for filler. I like the idea of the spray foam for filler, because I think it might cost less than fiber fill, and would be very quick to do...and I'm terribly lazy sometimes. ;-) But it makes a hard dress form, which wouldn't do for fitting corsetted items, but would work great for *other* stuff. The foam sheet covering was a response to my friend Gia who has a form that has become a little undersized, and needs pouffing out to be more accurate. Simply make or buy a form slightly smaller than your > actualy size and pad it out - getting the best of both worlds, a sturdy > inner form and a squishable outer form. You know...that's a GREAT idea! Actually, I have an adjustable one, that is a little undersized, too. I'm exploring all kinds of ideas, to get a better dress form without having to spend wad of cash. The duct tape one is cheap, and you can do them quickly. > This way your single base form could also be used for more mundane > fitting simply by adjusting the padding. Good point. > Incisdentally I think your idea of cutting the form using a pattern is > inspired and well worth following up. I think I would use duct tape for > the seams. Aha! Much better idea! Didn't think of duct tape! Well, duh!! Thanks. Glad you liked the idea. :-) Eleanor > > _________________________________________________________________ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ End of h-costume-digest V4 #193 ******************************* _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME-DIGEST From ???@??? Mon Mar 08 13:11:19 1999 Received: from mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE (mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE [130.149.4.16]) by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA22560 for ; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 22:10:16 +0100 (MET) Received: from mail.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.15]) by mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10IfNn-0003gK-00; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 22:10:15 +0100 Received: from coal.bg.tu-berlin.de by mail.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Thu, 4 Mar 1999 22:10:02 +0100 Received: from mail2.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.14]) by mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10IfNV-0003dW-00; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 22:09:57 +0100 Received: from tubkom.prz.tu-berlin.de by mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Thu, 4 Mar 1999 22:09:47 +0100 Received: from mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE (mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE [130.149.4.16]) by tubkom.prz.tu-berlin.de (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA20298 for ; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 22:08:31 +0100 (MEZ) Received: from mail.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.15]) by mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10IfNH-0003dN-01; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 22:09:43 +0100 Received: from server.indra.com by mail.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Thu, 4 Mar 1999 22:09:10 +0100 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.8.5/) with ESMTP id OAA22460; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 14:21:43 -0700 (MST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id OAA27636 for h-costume-digest-outgoing; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 14:06:53 -0700 (MST) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 14:06:53 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199903042106.OAA27636@indra.com> From: owner-h-costume-digest@indra.com To: h-costume-digest@indra.com Subject: h-costume-digest V4 #194 Reply-To: h-costume-digest@indra.com Errors-To: owner-h-costume-digest@indra.com Precedence: bulk Status: O h-costume-digest Thursday, 4 March 1999 Volume 04 : Number 194 In this issue: Re: H-COST: Project ideas Re: H-COST: Re:Foams...reg. vs hard?? Hunh? H-COST: De claris mulieribus Re: Sutter's Fort Costume Manual, was Re: H-COST: david rickman RE: H-COST: Re:Foams...reg. vs hard?? Hunh? Re: H-COST: Re:Foams...reg. vs hard?? Hunh? RE: H-COST: Re:Foams...reg. vs hard?? Hunh? H-COST: Foams...reg. vs hard?? Hunh? H-COST: Forms...reg. vs hard?? Hunh? Re: H-COST: Fabric sources in Austin and NYC H-COST: Bronzino's "Lady with a Puppy" re: Re: H-COST: Corsets and Stays on the Frontier ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Laurel Wilson Date: Thu, 04 Mar 1999 12:13:51 -0400 Subject: Re: H-COST: Project ideas - -Poster: Laurel Wilson > Tales from the Gengi, the 17th Century Japanese novel by a > noblewoman would be fun to research, costumes easy to sew, > but dramatic, and if the clothes don't keep them awake, the > sword play and beheadings will. This is a really neat and imaginative idea. It's the "Tale of Genji," and far older than seventeenth century: 11th or 12th, I think. Lauri _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Betsy Delaney Date: Thu, 04 Mar 1999 12:55:42 -0500 Subject: Re: H-COST: Re:Foams...reg. vs hard?? Hunh? - -Poster: Betsy Delaney Does this stuff carve at all, or does it harden too much? Sounds like a likely possibility for the next one I make. Thanks! - -betsy Hope H. Dunlap wrote: > > -Poster: "Hope H. Dunlap" > > For about 8 dollars, you can buy an aerosol foam product in > Home Depot. It's sold next to the styrofoam board > insulation, and is for pfouffing into cracks to keep out the > cold, rodents, fix mistakes, etc. My son made a cave and a > dragon by breaking up styrofoam board insulation into > blocks, sticking the parts together rather haphazardly with > toothpicks to get the general shape, and then squirted the > aerosol foam onto it to hold it all in place. It comes out > of the can the consistency of stiff meringue, and set up as > sturdy as a bomb shelter. I think you could build a house > for humans using this method. And, was it quick and fun! > Such a satisfying result. One to two cans would easily fill > a duct tape double, although, it would be cheaper to pack in > some scrap styrofoam first and then use the aerosol just for > morter. It set up hard in a few hours. > > Hope H. Dunlap > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-h-costume@indra.com > [mailto:owner-h-costume@indra.com]On > Behalf Of Hulett > Sent: Wednesday, March 03, 1999 6:03 PM > To: 'h-costume@indra.com' > Subject: RE: H-COST: Re:Foams...reg. vs hard?? Hunh? > > -Poster: Hulett > > -----Original Message----- > From: Lady Eleanor [SMTP:hekav@gte.net] > Sent: Monday, March 01, 1999 7:43 AM > To: h-costume@indra.com > Subject: H-COST: Re:Foams...reg. vs hard?? Hunh? > > I used soft foam or batting for the filling, the kind you > get at Walmart. > The smaller parts were hard foam. Though I've lost some > weight now and will > have to make another so I'm hoping to improve on the design > a little. The > shipping place near me does hard foam injecting for shipping > fragil objects > and I want to try taking my ductape form in the see how much > it would cost > to inject it. Or just the limbs again. The only other thing > I would change > is adding a fabric cover so I'd have something to pin to. > cheers, jd > -Poster: Lady Eleanor > > "Regular foam"..."hard foam"??? Could you supply any brand > names here? > > Thanks, > Lady Eleanor > > Hulett wrote: > > > > -Poster: Hulett > > > > That is exactly what I did on my whole dress form. It > worked great. (I > did > > fill the body cavity with regular foam though, just the > legs and arms > were > > hard foam) > > cheers, jd > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Marie Schulte [SMTP:mschulte@post.its.mcw.edu] > > Sent: Monday, March 01, 1999 6:56 AM > > To: h-costume@indra.com > > Subject: Re: H-COST: foot forms > > > > -Poster: Marie Schulte > > > > > -Poster: "Kathryn L. Herb" > > > > > > And to expand on your inquiry, does anyone know where I > can get foot > > > forms with the lower leg attached? I'm doing custom > woolen hose (woven > > > > Kay- > > > > A friend of mine who makes shoes makes individual lasts of > a person's > feet > > by doing a version of the duct tape/t-shirt pattern. He > uses a sock. > > After taping it up and cutting it off the person, he tapes > it back into a > > 'foot-lower leg form' and fills it with the aerosol foam > insulation. > > Maybe that will work for you. > > > > > ____________________________________________________________ > _____ > > To leave this mailing list, send mail to > majordomo@indra.com > > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME > > > > > ____________________________________________________________ > _____ > > To leave this mailing list, send mail to > majordomo@indra.com > > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME > > ____________________________________________________________ > _____ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to > majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME > > ____________________________________________________________ > _____ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to > majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME > > _________________________________________________________________ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME - -- Betsy R. Delaney Webmistress at large ************************************************************************ betsy@hawkeswood.com or betsy@ability.net http://www.hawkeswood.com/, home of Hawkeswood Designs and http://www.Costume-Con.org/, home of Costume-ConNections (If you still have betsy@access.digex.net, change my address *NOW*!) ************************************************************************ _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Carole Frick Date: Thu, 04 Mar 1999 11:59:45 -0600 Subject: H-COST: De claris mulieribus - -Poster: Carole Frick Dear Ms. Dunlap, Wasn't the illumination of a female riding astride that Kara referred to illustrating Boccaccio's 14th-c. Latin text? Are there "Sythian women, Roxelanas, and ancient female warriers from Ubekistan" in this text? If so, I am not aware of them. Greek and Roman and Italian women however, DO dominate the examples of "remarkable women" in _De claris mulieribus_. That was why I suggested precisely what I suggested. As a historian, I am primarily interested in images as historical artifacts which must be read very specifically, keeping purpose in mind. Carole Collier Frick, Ph.D. Department of Historical Studies Southern Illinois University _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Margo Anderson Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 11:05:49 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: Sutter's Fort Costume Manual, was Re: H-COST: david rickman - -Poster: Margo Anderson At 11:57 PM 3/3/99 -0700, you wrote: > >The Sutter's Fort Costume Manual is available from the Sutter's Fort Trade >Store in Sacramento. You can email the store manager, Dori Cavala, at >dcavala@mother.com for information on price and shipping charge. I bought it at Sutter's fort last Saturday. It was $16.95, and well worth it. Margo _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Hulett Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 11:23:06 -0800 Subject: RE: H-COST: Re:Foams...reg. vs hard?? Hunh? - -Poster: Hulett About the cost of fillers. I got bags of fiber fill at walmart for 2.00 per bag and it took ten bags to fill my form. One can of spray foam cost 7.50 and only filled 1/4 of my form. The shipping place near me charges 12.00 per square foot, so I'd be doing something extravagent if I used them, since it would be about 4-5 square feet to fill my form. Did anyone mention yet the article in Threads about different homemade dress forms? I have it if anyone wants a copy. I will probably make two forms, one of me in a corset and one of me natural 'cause I do alot of both. Rather than a form that I could corset. I have dismal luck with that sort of thing being short waisted and of rather zaftig proportions. Total cost on my last ductape double was 75.00 and that included the cool base my husband made with for me. And I will cover both in canvas or knit so I have something to pin to. cheers, jd - -----Original Message----- From: Lady Eleanor [SMTP:hekav@gte.net] Sent: Thursday, March 04, 1999 9:14 AM To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: H-COST: Re:Foams...reg. vs hard?? Hunh? - -Poster: Lady Eleanor Michel McCabe wrote: > Hi Michel, > Why two forms? Oh, well...'cause we were initially talking about the foam for use inside the "duct tape" form as a filler. A different kind of dress form with a different problem. Two different threads running here. :-) Hope (I think) suggested using batting to fill out the hollow...which makes a nice squishable form that would take a corset. But then she also mentioned using a hard foam for filler. I like the idea of the spray foam for filler, because I think it might cost less than fiber fill, and would be very quick to do...and I'm terribly lazy sometimes. ;-) But it makes a hard dress form, which wouldn't do for fitting corsetted items, but would work great for *other* stuff. The foam sheet covering was a response to my friend Gia who has a form that has become a little undersized, and needs pouffing out to be more accurate. Simply make or buy a form slightly smaller than your > actualy size and pad it out - getting the best of both worlds, a sturdy > inner form and a squishable outer form. You know...that's a GREAT idea! Actually, I have an adjustable one, that is a little undersized, too. I'm exploring all kinds of ideas, to get a better dress form without having to spend wad of cash. The duct tape one is cheap, and you can do them quickly. > This way your single base form could also be used for more mundane > fitting simply by adjusting the padding. Good point. > Incisdentally I think your idea of cutting the form using a pattern is > inspired and well worth following up. I think I would use duct tape for > the seams. Aha! Much better idea! Didn't think of duct tape! Well, duh!! Thanks. Glad you liked the idea. :-) Eleanor > > _________________________________________________________________ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Margo Anderson Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 11:12:42 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: H-COST: Re:Foams...reg. vs hard?? Hunh? - -Poster: Margo Anderson >Incisdentally I think your idea of cutting the form using a pattern is >inspired and well worth following up. I think I would use duct tape for >the seams. > >Contact cement works well on foam, and you wouldn't have the problem of trying to pin into duct tape later. This is a great idea, BTW. I'm hoping for a new couch soon, and the cushions from the old one will be perfect for experimenting. "We have to get a new couch, dear. I cut up the old one for costuming". Hmm, something tells me he wouldn't be at all surprised. Margo _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "EPPERSON, SHERYL" Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 13:23:13 -0600 Subject: RE: H-COST: Re:Foams...reg. vs hard?? Hunh? - -Poster: "EPPERSON, SHERYL" I've had an idea which I will try (hopefully soon). Rather than completely filling the form with either type of foam, I'm going to make a cylinder of cardboard approximately the diameter of my waist and insert it in the center, then fill around it. That should lessen the amount of any other filler needed, as well as make it lighter. I think I'll also attach a heavy suit hanger in the top. Sheryl Epperson Oklahoma > -----Original Message----- > From: Hulett [SMTP:mhull@earthlink.net] > Sent: Thursday, March 04, 1999 1:23 PM > To: 'h-costume@indra.com' > Subject: RE: H-COST: Re:Foams...reg. vs hard?? Hunh? > > > -Poster: Hulett > > About the cost of fillers. I got bags of fiber fill at walmart for > 2.00 per > bag and it took ten bags to fill my form. One can of spray foam cost > 7.50 > and only filled 1/4 of my form. The shipping place near me charges > 12.00 > per square foot, so I'd be doing something extravagent if I used them, > > since it would be about 4-5 square feet to fill my form. Did anyone _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Michel McCabe Date: Thu, 04 Mar 1999 14:55:51 -0500 Subject: H-COST: Foams...reg. vs hard?? Hunh? - -Poster: Michel McCabe > >You know...that's a GREAT idea! Actually, I have an >adjustable one, that is a little undersized, too. Okay, so you have an adjustable that is too small. My complaint and it looks like just about everyone else who already has one is that (1) it is too flimsy and (2) that the base is so unstable. BUT if you had one and funds were low I wonder if you "fill" that with spray foam and then pad it out. I am thinking that I would want the "hard shell" to be equal to say my squished in rib cage and hip bones and then pad out the squishable part. This is said having one made a wonderful garment that called for a tad more squishy than even the softer parts of my anatomy were willing to tolerate, much less allow me to breath. However, this would not make sense for me, because I don't happen to own said flimsy dial a size form so by the time I buy one, and the foam and then pad it out, I would still have a tipsy/unstable imitation of the Fabulous Fit - I have to say that cast Iron base is POSITIVELY calling to me. Still thinking about how to make one base work for several bodies....... _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Michel McCabe Date: Thu, 04 Mar 1999 14:56:19 -0500 Subject: H-COST: Forms...reg. vs hard?? Hunh? - -Poster: Michel McCabe > >You know...that's a GREAT idea! Actually, I have an >adjustable one, that is a little undersized, too. Okay, so you have an adjustable that is too small. My complaint and it looks like just about everyone else who already has one is that (1) it is too flimsy and (2) that the base is so unstable. BUT if you had one and funds were low I wonder if you "fill" that with spray foam and then pad it out. I am thinking that I would want the "hard shell" to be equal to say my squished in rib cage and hip bones and then pad out the squishable part. This is said having one made a wonderful garment that called for a tad more squishy than even the softer parts of my anatomy were willing to tolerate, much less allow me to breath. However, this would not make sense for me, because I don't happen to own said flimsy dial a size form so by the time I buy one, and the foam and then pad it out, I would still have a tipsy/unstable imitation of the Fabulous Fit - I have to say that cast Iron base is POSITIVELY calling to me. Still thinking about how to make one base work for several bodies....... _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Connie Carroll" Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 15:50:39 +0000 Subject: Re: H-COST: Fabric sources in Austin and NYC - -Poster: "Connie Carroll" I used to live in Austin and Hancock's was my favorite place to go.There are two locations. Kassandra NickKraken > -Poster: Teddy > > Hello, > > A friend of mine, here in the UK, will soon be making a business > trip to the US. She will be spending some time in Austin (Sp?), > Texas and in NYC.... > > She won't have much time for "shopping around" and will probably be > relying on public transport so do any of you have any > recommendations of good sources of fabrics? > > She's in a 15th Century group and will probably looking for fabrics > for a (male) Turkish costume of the period as well as for female > European (possibly italian) garb. > > Any ideas? > > Thanks in advance > > Teddy > > _________________________________________________________________ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with > the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME JUST CALL ME MISTRESS BUNNY _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Frank&Tracy Thallas JR" Date: Thu, 04 Mar 99 14:58:08 PST Subject: H-COST: Bronzino's "Lady with a Puppy" - -Poster: "Frank&Tracy Thallas JR" Greetings! I finally found the info for the book with the beautiful repro of the "Lady"..... Cechhi, Alessandro - "Bronzino". ISBN 1878351524 , Riverside Press Barnes and Nobles is carrying it currently for $14.99 - it shows many other portraits as well. All Health! Liadain _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "David W. Rickman" Date: Thu, 4 Mar 99 14:17:29 EST Subject: re: Re: H-COST: Corsets and Stays on the Frontier - -Poster: "David W. Rickman" Dear MzScahlett, Thank you. I really could not put it any better myself. David drickman@state.de.us - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Original Message - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -Poster: MzScahlett@aol.com In a message dated 3/3/99 10:49:38 Pacific Standard Time, oh_susannah@hotmail.com writes: << And since we even have Photographs of negro slaves in the 1840s wearing corsets, SOME of them must have worn them. So Mr. Rickman cannot make the claim, as he so casually does, that African American slave women NEVER wore them. >> Are these house slaves or field hands? I've never seen a photo of a female field hand in a corset, but women whose lives were spent in service indoors were often provided a modest, but certainly more upper-class, wardrobe than anyone working in the fields. Mr. Rickman's argument is well-documented and reasonable. He has utilized period photos and letters - and you must remember he initially was confining his "assumptions" as you put it to a single location, Fort Sutter. I have read Ms. Severa's book, and you can easily see when women wore corsets and when they didn't. He refers to the use of scarves and ties, and a somewhat tighter bodice for support. That seems totally logical to me. I stepped in here, because it does seem that you are being argumentative for argument's sake, rather than just trying to set out a differing opinion. Particularly when you state: "This is the kind of '"scholarly" writing that we must continue to reeducate re-enactors, interpreters, and even social historians, who ought to know better, against." At best it reads as condescension, at worst an insult. I think the truth is somewhere in between, but one must remember that he appeared to be confining his argument to the poorest working women who were members of a particular class of society in a particular period. He specifically disclaims that women in a slightly better financial position would most likely have worn some sort of corseted undergarment. I am no expert, and do not wish to incite more argument, but you asked if you sounded unfairly hostile, and I thought perhaps you did, even if not meaning to. It just seems that this point of the history of when and if corsets were worn on the frontier by varying classes of women, is a slightly gray one, and that there is room for both opinions within reason. It also seems to me that if one opinion says "probably" and here is the evidence; and the other says "if there is not any direct evidence then it is wrong not to make assumptions" the former is frankly, more sound. _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME - - - - - - - - - - - - - End of Original Message - - - - - - - - - - - - _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ End of h-costume-digest V4 #194 ******************************* _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME-DIGEST From ???@??? Mon Mar 08 13:11:21 1999 Received: from mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE (mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE [130.149.4.16]) by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA23161 for ; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 00:28:41 +0100 (MET) Received: from mail.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.15]) by mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10IhXj-0006uh-00; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 00:28:39 +0100 Received: from coal.bg.tu-berlin.de by mail.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Fri, 5 Mar 1999 00:28:31 +0100 Received: from mail2.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.14]) by mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10IhXX-0006uP-00; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 00:28:27 +0100 Received: from tubkom.prz.tu-berlin.de by mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Fri, 5 Mar 1999 00:28:26 +0100 Received: from mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE (mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE [130.149.4.16]) by tubkom.prz.tu-berlin.de (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA20994 for ; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 00:27:10 +0100 (MEZ) Received: from mail.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.15]) by mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10IhXS-0006uH-02; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 00:28:22 +0100 Received: from server.indra.com by mail.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Fri, 5 Mar 1999 00:27:52 +0100 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.8.5/) with ESMTP id QAA23806; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 16:41:03 -0700 (MST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id QAA22398 for h-costume-digest-outgoing; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 16:26:17 -0700 (MST) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 16:26:17 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199903042326.QAA22398@indra.com> From: owner-h-costume-digest@indra.com To: h-costume-digest@indra.com Subject: h-costume-digest V4 #195 Reply-To: h-costume-digest@indra.com Errors-To: owner-h-costume-digest@indra.com Precedence: bulk Status: O h-costume-digest Thursday, 4 March 1999 Volume 04 : Number 195 In this issue: RE: H-COST: Re:Foams...reg. vs hard?? Hunh? Re: H-COST: H-COST - loose gowns+kirtles Re: H-COST: Corsets and Stays on the Frontier H-COST: foams..reg vs. hard?? Hunh?? H-COST: Forum or Argument? H-COST: Professional Job and apprenticeships RE: H-COST: foams..reg vs. hard?? Hunh?? Re: H-COST: Re:Foams...reg. vs hard?? Hunh? Re: H-COST: Re:Foams...reg. vs hard?? Hunh? Re: H-COST: Re:Foams...reg. vs hard?? Hunh? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Michel McCabe Date: Thu, 04 Mar 1999 16:10:25 -0500 Subject: RE: H-COST: Re:Foams...reg. vs hard?? Hunh? - -Poster: Michel McCabe At 11:23 AM 3/4/99 -0800, you wrote: > Did anyone >mention yet the article in Threads about different homemade dress forms? I >have it if anyone wants a copy. I will probably make two forms, one of me >in a corset and one of me natural 'cause I do alot of both. Rather than a >form that I could corset. That article is on the Threads Web Site so you should not need to go to the hassle of getting permission to copy it from them - people can just download it themselves. _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Janice Dallas Date: Thu, 04 Mar 1999 16:29:05 -0500 Subject: Re: H-COST: H-COST - loose gowns+kirtles - -Poster: Janice Dallas Hi, Just started getting this list. When I had an 8 mos. pregnant chorister in "Yeoman of the Guard"(set in 1540-45), I used that same drawing of Alice (I think) More as the source for her costume. She was allowed to keep her costume as we're hoping not to need it again. This year I have a 5 mos. pregnant "fairy" to disguise. Unfortunately she's in the front of the chorus and has to look like the others. Carolyn Kayta Barrows wrote: > > -Poster: Carolyn Kayta Barrows > I wore a corsetless Tudor housedress like in the drawing for the painting > of Thos. Moore and family. I even wore it while pregnant. I called it a > 'Tudor station wagon'. It worked well. > > Kayta > ////.\\\ > ////-@@\\\ > (((( 7 ((( > | -- )))) > * ) ((((( > /----\ /---\ > > _________________________________________________________________ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: MzScahlett@aol.com Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 16:52:07 EST Subject: Re: H-COST: Corsets and Stays on the Frontier - -Poster: MzScahlett@aol.com In a message dated 3/4/1999 13:07:39 Pacific Standard Time, drickman@state.de.us writes: << Thank you. I really could not put it any better myself. David drickman@state.de.us >> Not a problem. I don't mind differences of opinion, but I loathe those who act as though they not only know "it all" but were present when it was invented. I didn't want to really get into it, but I have a few "photos" of family from that time frame and my family were all poor farming types. None of the women wore any type of foundation except some sort of slip under their dresses. It's common sense. Sometimes I think these people would argue that homeless women wear a clean pair of underwear everyday because that's what is considered "civilized" now. There is such a difference between "middle class" and those who are truly "impoverished" but some of these women simply don't want to accept any rationale but their own. In 50 years, there will be a huge argument that all homeless females would have worn underwire bras. Wait and see. angil + + + + + + + Angela F. Lazear Costumes & Custom Clothing "Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds" A. Einstein _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Kara Rodgers Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 17:36:45 -0500 (EST) Subject: H-COST: foams..reg vs. hard?? Hunh?? - -Poster: Kara Rodgers OK, so the duct-tape over a tee shirt filled with foam, fiber-fill etc, sounds a like a reasonable alternative for someone who doesn't want to spend a lot of money right now, but what sort of stand do you put it on? Is ther a cheap, easy alternative for someone who doesn't have access to a wood shop? Also, is the fiber-fill sturdy enough to take the weight of any dress at all? or do you need to provide a more solid foundation for it? I've never owned a dress-form before, can't afford to buy one and never thought of making one, but this thread is making me think about trying... Kara _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Susannah Eanes" Date: Thu, 04 Mar 1999 14:43:26 PST Subject: H-COST: Forum or Argument? - -Poster: "Susannah Eanes" I carefully re-read a hard copy version of Mr. Rickman's long post, to which my earlier comments referred regarding working women in the 1840s wearing corsets. Then I re-read those comments. If anyone is interested, the following are my further comments. I submit them for clarification, and because I think that this is a forum for discussion, and not because I like to argue. If I wanted to do that, I could have taken issue with many, many points he made. I would hope that we on this list are not afraid to counter what we read in the printed word, even when the author is a member. That is how we learn. Firstly, I need to correct myself. I used the word "diacentric," to describe the type of conclusion being drawn, when I meant "chronocentric." Which means, to apply the knowledge, standards, and assumptions of one's own time to persons in the past or future. Referring to corseted slaves: >Are these house slaves or field hands? I've never seen a photo of a female >field hand in a corset, but women whose lives were spent in service indoors >were often provided a modest, but certainly more upper-class, wardrobe than >anyone working in the fields. Actually, the first one that comes to mind is on p. 60 of Ms. Severa's book *Dressed for the Photographer.* A young maid is seated next to an older slave, a cook. The young maid is described as "lightly corseted," when anyone can see from the compression under her arm that "lightly" is hardly the word. She is corseted in a standard 1840s corset. Not fashionably constricted, but one that was probably commonly worn to appear respectable. I know that sounds odd to some people, but it was a concern to many slave-holding families, who knew that the outward appearance of the help reflected directly on the family. And although the authoress makes the claim that the cook is probably not corseted, from the flatness (as opposed to fleshy roundness) above the waist of her gown visible at her left side (right side of the photo) and her erect posture, I wonder if indeed she isn't corseted, after all. She certainly doesn't look anything at all like the uncorseted interpreters I've seen, if they are any reference. > you must remember he initially was confining >his "assumptions" as you put it to a single location, Fort Sutter. But you can see that others use his material. There have been plenty of requests from list members for his book, and it is sold in their gift shop. Others *are* affected by his arguments. I have >read Ms. Severa's book, and you can easily see when women wore corsets and >when they didn't. He refers to the use of scarves and ties, and a somewhat >tighter bodice for support. That seems totally logical to me. > What seems logical is not always true. Remember we are trying to avoid 20th century applications of mores here. Have you tried wearing 1840s clothing --specifically a work dress --without any sort of support? How did it feel? Work dresses did not have tight bodices. Sometimes they had dart-fitted linings, but often they were not lined. Most of the ones I have seen and examined were gathered in the front, and did not offer a bit of support. And frankly, his claim of how "scarves and ties" were used shows a complete misunderstanding of the purpose of the kerchief, modesty piece, fichu, and the other pieces you refer to as "scarves and ties." These pieces were to cover a low, droopy, or immodest neckline. They offered no support whatsoever. they did help maintain a respectable appearance, BUT they were worn with shortgowns, NOT work gowns. Some gowns in the early part of the center had a panel inside that crossed over and was pinned, which did provide support to small breasted young women, but this was not seen. It is not a modesty piece. It is not the same thing as a cross cloth. >I stepped in here, because it does seem that you are being argumentative for >argument's sake, rather than just trying to set out a differing opinion. >Particularly when you state: > >"This is the kind of '"scholarly" writing that we must continue to >reeducate re-enactors, interpreters, and even social historians, who >ought to know better, against." > >At best it reads as condescension, at worst an insult. > > I think the truth is somewhere in between, but one must remember that he >appeared to be confining his argument to the poorest working women who were >members of a particular class of society in a particular period. He >specifically disclaims that women in a slightly better financial position >would most likely have worn some sort of corseted undergarment. > Yes. He specifically refers to answering Margo's questions on emigrants, and then goes on to generalize about working women. BTW, for an excellent resource on photos of emigrants in this period, check the Mormon archives in SLC. Fascinating, and the curators are very helpful and accessible by phone. Many of these show --yes! corseted emigrants - --and immigrants, too. Just don't take anything their clothing researchers have to say as cold hard fact without verifying it yourself. Secondary sources should be verified whenever possible, and I have heard some interesting claims made that could not later be verified. >I am no expert, and do not wish to incite more argument, but you asked if you >sounded unfairly hostile, and I thought perhaps you did, even if not meaning >to. It probably did, but I didn't see anyone else pointing out the obvious. This is one of my buttons, as some of you already know from past experience, and I do think that trying to legitimize today an outdated opinion is pretty insulting and condescending in itself. It just seems that this point of the history of when and if corsets were >worn on the frontier by varying classes of women, is a slightly gray one, and >that there is room for both opinions within reason. As long as they are stated as Opinions, and not given out as guidelines. I did say that I was presenting the other side of the argument. It also seems to me that >if one opinion says "probably" and here is the evidence; and the other says >"if there is not any direct evidence then it is wrong not to make assumptions" >the former is frankly, more sound. This is actually what I was doing, and I did not see "probably" anywhere in his argument. In fact, he tries to make the case that because many of us wear bras today, we try to say they wore corsets back then. In actuality, the opposite is more likely the case. Many of us wear as few foundation pieces as possible today, and we try to get by without them when we portray "back then." Having had the experience of working in early 19th c. corsets of the type I speak of (sensible stays) or wearing boned stays every single day for over a year and a half, I think I know more about the subject than any man could ever hope to. I would never say I know about wearing tailcoats, or breeches, the latter because I frankly do not have the equipment to put in them. And so, I frankly resent his statement "Actually, I do know about corsets." (BTW, I have seen and examined a tailcoat made at home by a loving wife c. 1828. No, it is not professionally tailored. And how many of us have made sensible stays? It is NOT necessary now, nor was it then, to have them made professionally. His claims in that direction are moot.) >From my private responses, there is a silent number of members who were glad I spoke out. It was interesting to note that the direction the conversation was going was pretty much against Mr. Rickman's generalizations until it became apparent he was a member of this list. Toujours, la politesse. Susannah "We are only the trustees for those who come after us." --William Morris ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: AliaClaire@aol.com Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 17:45:29 EST Subject: H-COST: Professional Job and apprenticeships - -Poster: AliaClaire@aol.com Ladies and gentlemen of the list!!!!!! I am SOOO excited. I actually have a job costuming at an equity theatre...it's a minimum wage, hemming and seam ripping job...but I get to work with a designer that's in from NYC and just breath the atmosphere. And it does look good on a job resume :-). Now, I have one more question. I'm looking for an apprenticeship in costuming this summer, in historical or theatrical costuming, preferably in NE Ohio, or someplace where my parents might let me travel to. Any ideas? I've already contacted the local theatres, and some up in Cleveland. - -Alison Stacy AliaClaire@aol.com Canton, Ohio _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Hulett Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 15:09:32 -0800 Subject: RE: H-COST: foams..reg vs. hard?? Hunh?? - -Poster: Hulett Kara, I am very lucky to have a handy husband, here is what he did. He bought a 2'x2' piece of 3/4 inch plywood and cut it into a round. You don't have to do this, it just seemed easier. He took some pvc, white at 2", by about 6', and some about 1/4" wider by 12". Using some common L brackets, like for a shelf (three to be exact), he screwed the 12" piece into the center of the plywood. Then he cut a knotch in the top of the long piece of pvc and taped a very heavy hanger into the knotch. Then we mounted the form onto the hanger and filled the form with polyfill. Last, we set the form into the bracket on the plywood and measured the difference at the shoulder (you pick the site) and cut that amount off of the pvc and stuck the completed form into the bracket. The total amount for the stand was around 15.00. But that is in LA money. I have no idea of prices elsewhere. I think if you didn't cut the plywood into a round, and had an electric drill to make the holes, you could do this yourself pretty well. Good luck! jd - -----Original Message----- From: Kara Rodgers [SMTP:kara.rodgers@yale.edu] Sent: Thursday, March 04, 1999 2:37 PM To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: H-COST: foams..reg vs. hard?? Hunh?? - -Poster: Kara Rodgers OK, so the duct-tape over a tee shirt filled with foam, fiber-fill etc, sounds a like a reasonable alternative for someone who doesn't want to spend a lot of money right now, but what sort of stand do you put it on? Is ther a cheap, easy alternative for someone who doesn't have access to a wood shop? Also, is the fiber-fill sturdy enough to take the weight of any dress at all? or do you need to provide a more solid foundation for it? I've never owned a dress-form before, can't afford to buy one and never thought of making one, but this thread is making me think about trying... Kara _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Lady Eleanor Date: Thu, 04 Mar 1999 15:10:46 -0800 Subject: Re: H-COST: Re:Foams...reg. vs hard?? Hunh? - -Poster: Lady Eleanor Margo Anderson wrote: > > -Poster: Margo Anderson > >Contact cement works well on foam, and you wouldn't have the problem of > trying to pin into duct tape later. Ummm...yes, that's true! Hmmmm... > This is a great idea, BTW. I'm hoping for a new couch soon, and the > cushions from the old one will be perfect for experimenting. > > "We have to get a new couch, dear. I cut up the old one for costuming". > Hmm, something tells me he wouldn't be at all surprised. > > Margo HA-HA-HA! That's funny! :-) But how nice to be able to "recycle"!! Eleanor > > _________________________________________________________________ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "StitchWitch" Date: Thu, 04 Mar 1999 15:23:38 PST Subject: Re: H-COST: Re:Foams...reg. vs hard?? Hunh? - -Poster: "StitchWitch" > > This is a great idea, BTW. I'm hoping for a new couch > soon, and the > > cushions from the old one will be perfect for experimenting. > > > > "We have to get a new couch, dear. I cut up the old one for costuming". > > Hmm, something tells me he wouldn't be at all surprised. > > > > Margo My semi-historical/mostly hysterical 'Victorian C'Thulhu' monster was made from my old foam sofa. Since it had become a 'people eater' in it's final days, it seemed fitting. Kate - ---- StitchWitch All things are possible until they are proved impossible - and even the impossible may only be so, as of now. - Pearl S. Buck _______________________________________________________ Get your free, private email at http://mail.excite.com/ _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Lady Eleanor Date: Thu, 04 Mar 1999 15:22:10 -0800 Subject: Re: H-COST: Re:Foams...reg. vs hard?? Hunh? - -Poster: Lady Eleanor Hi jd, Hulett wrote: > > -Poster: Hulett > > About the cost of fillers. I got bags of fiber fill at walmart for 2.00 per > bag and it took ten bags to fill my form. One can of spray foam cost 7.50 > and only filled 1/4 of my form. The shipping place near me charges 12.00 > per square foot, so I'd be doing something extravagent if I used them, > since it would be about 4-5 square feet to fill my form. Welllll....that's something to consider... I *wonder*...You know those nasty little styro chips that look Cheetos, that are used by everyone these days when shipping breakables? I wonder, could you sort of combine the spray and those things? I used to have trash bags full of them in the garage...got rid of most, but I think I've still got some. I know they sell them by the bag at U-Haul rental stores...just in case some don't happen to have oodles of them piling up in the corner. ;-) Does the foam give you *any* time at all to mix...so that you could sort of stir the chips in? Maybe layering would be better. (scratching head). Did anyone > mention yet the article in Threads about different homemade dress forms? I > have it if anyone wants a copy. I think *you* just did! ;-) Saw it, got it...great article! I will probably make two forms, one of me > in a corset and one of me natural 'cause I do alot of both. Rather than a > form that I could corset. Yup...I had the same thought... I have dismal luck with that sort of thing being > short waisted and of rather zaftig proportions. Ditto! Total cost on my last > ductape double was 75.00 and that included the cool base my husband made > with for me. > And I will cover both in canvas or knit so I have something to pin to. > cheers, jd That's not bad! Didn't you say you used PVC for the stand and shoulders or was that someone else? At the very least a duct tape one might tide me over until I can splurge on the Fab Fit with the cast iron base. :-) Eleanor _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ End of h-costume-digest V4 #195 ******************************* _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME-DIGEST From ???@??? Mon Mar 08 13:11:22 1999 Received: from mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE (mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE [130.149.4.16]) by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA23301 for ; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 01:10:53 +0100 (MET) Received: from mail.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.15]) by mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10IiCZ-0007mw-00; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 01:10:51 +0100 Received: from coal.bg.tu-berlin.de by mail.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Fri, 5 Mar 1999 01:10:37 +0100 Received: from mail.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.15]) by mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10IiCG-0007mg-00; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 01:10:32 +0100 Received: from tubkom.prz.tu-berlin.de by mail.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Fri, 5 Mar 1999 01:10:19 +0100 Received: from mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE (mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE [130.149.4.16]) by tubkom.prz.tu-berlin.de (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA21175 for ; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 01:09:03 +0100 (MEZ) Received: from mail.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.15]) by mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10IiBz-0007m9-00; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 01:10:15 +0100 Received: from server.indra.com by mail.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Fri, 5 Mar 1999 01:10:03 +0100 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.8.5/) with ESMTP id RAA03063; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 17:23:21 -0700 (MST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id RAA29536 for h-costume-digest-outgoing; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 17:08:37 -0700 (MST) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 17:08:37 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199903050008.RAA29536@indra.com> From: owner-h-costume-digest@indra.com To: h-costume-digest@indra.com Subject: h-costume-digest V4 #196 Reply-To: h-costume-digest@indra.com Errors-To: owner-h-costume-digest@indra.com Precedence: bulk Status: O h-costume-digest Thursday, 4 March 1999 Volume 04 : Number 196 In this issue: Re: H-COST: Forum or Argument?/was corsets Re: H-COST: Foams...reg. vs hard?? Hunh? Re: H-COST: Forum or Argument? Re: H-COST: foams..reg vs. hard?? Hunh?? H-COST: Hot topics/Corsets, etc. Re: H-COST: Re:Foams...reg. vs hard?? Hunh? Re: H-COST: corseting mannequins ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: MzScahlett@aol.com Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 18:33:09 EST Subject: Re: H-COST: Forum or Argument?/was corsets - -Poster: MzScahlett@aol.com In a message dated 3/4/1999 14:46:55 Pacific Standard Time, oh_susannah@hotmail.com writes: Susannah, I'm going to try again... MY QUESTION: Are these house slaves or field hands? I've never seen a photo of a female field hand in a corset, but women whose lives were spent in service indoors were often provided a modest, but certainly more upper-class, wardrobe than anyone working in the fields. (For clarification, I was assuming corsets for indoor servants) YOUR ANSWER: Actually, the first one that comes to mind is on p. 60 of Ms. Severa's book *Dressed for the Photographer.* A young maid is seated next to an older slave, a cook. The young maid is described as "lightly corseted," (snip) This young woman is a house servant, which supports, rather than disproves my point (or rather, my question) I agree that anyone in the house would most likely be corseted, but was trying to make the distinction that I believed I drew from Mr. Rickman's statement, and that was, that *extremely* poor folk would not wear corsets. I stand by that statement and see nothing in your arguments to sway my opinion. I did not pick up any condescension on Mr. Rickman's part, rather, I read someone putting forth an argument supporting a particular position/conclusion about a very limited group of, primarily, impoverished people. MY STATEMENT: you must remember he initially was confining his "assumptions" as you put it to a single location, Fort Sutter. YOUR STATEMENT: But you can see that others use his material. There have been plenty of requests from list members for his book, and it is sold in their gift shop. Others *are* affected by his arguments. Unfortunately, you again seem to take what I said out of context and respond to something entirely different. I said his research was confined to specific groups of people living there and during a specific time period. What other's do with that research wasn't the point, and if it were, it would certainly be the responsibility of the person using such specific research to support a theory to which it did not apply, not Mr. Rickman's responsibility. Your point suggests that any theory that can be misused or misinterpreted, no matter how clearly set forth, is a dangerous theory in and of itself, and that the person misinterpreting it has no responsibility to use it properly. I cannot buy that logic under any circumstance. MY STATEMENT: He refers to the use of scarves and ties, and a somewhat tighter bodice for support. That seems totally logical to me. YOUR RESPONSE: What seems logical is not always true. Remember we are trying to avoid 20th century applications of mores here. Have you tried wearing 1840s clothing --specifically a work dress --without any sort of support? Again, I'm confused. How does the documented use of scarves tied tightly across the breast, combined with a tight bodice, forming something which would give, in essence, the support of a sports bra, translate into either the "application of 20th century mores" or wearing a work dress "without any sort of support?" I just have to say that I don't think Mr. Rickman's point was to state that women didn't wear corsets. I think he felt that a certain class of impoverished women, in a certain place in time, according to his research, probably didn't -- for the most part. I did not see any absolutes to which I felt the need to respond. You appear to have read something very different into what he said, so it's probably not worth continuing the thread. I still don't see that in your own ways, you're not both right, and perhaps that is where my confusion is. You still seem to be focusing on an entirely different segment of the population and I do believe that segment did wear corsets. But that brings us back to the field hands...not the house servants... and now, I'm dizzy. angil + + + + + + + Angela F. Lazear Costumes & Custom Clothing "Great Spirits Will Always Encounter Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds" A. Einstein _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Lady Eleanor Date: Thu, 04 Mar 1999 15:31:22 -0800 Subject: Re: H-COST: Foams...reg. vs hard?? Hunh? - -Poster: Lady Eleanor Michel McCabe wrote: > > -Poster: Michel McCabe "fill" that with spray foam and then pad it > out. That's an idea I hadn't thought of! But, you are right, you'd still have a flimsy piece of junk, now full of foam. :-( I have to say that cast Iron base is POSITIVELY calling to me. Me too! Resisting every urge (at the moment) to whip out the credit card and make the call! Somebody STOP me!!! :-) > Still thinking about how to make one base work for several bodies....... Did you see my note forwarded from Fab Fit about the price of extra bodies...Pricey... but nice to know you can get a different body for that stand...just in case... ;-) I LOVE all this discussion tho'...so many good suggestions going on here... Keep talking folks! :-) Eleanor _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Lavolta Press Date: Thu, 04 Mar 1999 15:33:00 -0800 Subject: Re: H-COST: Forum or Argument? - -Poster: Lavolta Press I have one general comment here. I object to discussing list members and the opinions they have expressed on the list (or elsewhere) as if they are not present on the list. Which Mr. Rickman seems to be. He may have had said something about signing off, but does not seem to have done so yet, and a number of his friends seem to be on the list and for all I know may be willing to forward messages to him. No, of course everyone on h-costume does not always agree with everyone else, nor should they be expected to. It's just that I think the person whose opinions are being objected to should be addressed directly, so they can respond directly. It really sounds rather insulting to (apparently) dismiss someone from a conversation that intimately concerns them (everyone is interested in anything said about themselves). It can also create a kind of "our group against their group" kind of mentality that becomes quite unpleasant. I have seem this happen on another mailing list. And I would hope that the goal is not to be unpleasant, or even appear to be making a personal attack. Fran Grimble > > I carefully re-read a hard copy version of Mr. Rickman's long post, to > which my earlier comments referred regarding working women in the 1840s > wearing corsets. Then I re-read those comments. If anyone is > interested, the following are my further comments. I submit them for > clarification, and because I think that this is a forum for discussion, > and not because I like to argue. If I wanted to do that, I could have > taken issue with many, many points he made. I would hope that we on > this list are not afraid to counter what we read in the printed word, > even when the author is a member. That is how we learn. > > Firstly, I need to correct myself. I used the word "diacentric," to > describe the type of conclusion being drawn, when I meant > "chronocentric." Which means, to apply the knowledge, standards, and > assumptions of one's own time to persons in the past or future. > > Referring to corseted slaves: > > >Are these house slaves or field hands? I've never seen a photo of a > female > >field hand in a corset, but women whose lives were spent in service > indoors > >were often provided a modest, but certainly more upper-class, wardrobe > than > >anyone working in the fields. > > Actually, the first one that comes to mind is on p. 60 of Ms. Severa's > book *Dressed for the Photographer.* A young maid is seated next to an > older slave, a cook. The young maid is described as "lightly corseted," > when anyone can see from the compression under her arm that "lightly" is > hardly the word. She is corseted in a standard 1840s corset. Not > fashionably constricted, but one that was probably commonly worn to > appear respectable. I know that sounds odd to some people, but it was a > concern to many slave-holding families, who knew that the outward > appearance of the help reflected directly on the family. And although > the authoress makes the claim that the cook is probably not corseted, > from the flatness (as opposed to fleshy roundness) above the waist of > her gown visible at her left side (right side of the photo) and her > erect posture, I wonder if indeed she isn't corseted, after all. She > certainly doesn't look anything at all like the uncorseted interpreters > I've seen, if they are any reference. > > > you must remember he initially was confining > >his "assumptions" as you put it to a single location, Fort Sutter. > > But you can see that others use his material. There have been plenty of > requests from list members for his book, and it is sold in their gift > shop. Others *are* affected by his arguments. > > I have > >read Ms. Severa's book, and you can easily see when women wore corsets > and > >when they didn't. He refers to the use of scarves and ties, and a > somewhat > >tighter bodice for support. That seems totally logical to me. > > > > What seems logical is not always true. Remember we are trying to avoid > 20th century applications of mores here. Have you tried wearing 1840s > clothing --specifically a work dress --without any sort of support? How > did it feel? Work dresses did not have tight bodices. Sometimes they > had dart-fitted linings, but often they were not lined. > Most of the ones I have seen and examined were gathered in the front, > and did not offer a bit of support. And frankly, his claim of how > "scarves and ties" were used shows a complete misunderstanding of the > purpose of the kerchief, modesty piece, fichu, and the other pieces you > refer to as "scarves and ties." These pieces were to cover a low, > droopy, or immodest neckline. They offered no support whatsoever. they > did help maintain a respectable appearance, BUT they were worn with > shortgowns, NOT work gowns. Some gowns in the early part of the center > had a panel inside that crossed over and was pinned, which did provide > support to small breasted young women, but this was not seen. It is not > a modesty piece. It is not the same thing as a cross cloth. > > >I stepped in here, because it does seem that you are being > argumentative for > >argument's sake, rather than just trying to set out a differing > opinion. > >Particularly when you state: > > > >"This is the kind of '"scholarly" writing that we must continue to > >reeducate re-enactors, interpreters, and even social historians, who > >ought to know better, against." > > > >At best it reads as condescension, at worst an insult. > > > > I think the truth is somewhere in between, but one must remember that > he > >appeared to be confining his argument to the poorest working women who > were > >members of a particular class of society in a particular period. He > >specifically disclaims that women in a slightly better financial > position > >would most likely have worn some sort of corseted undergarment. > > > > Yes. He specifically refers to answering Margo's questions on > emigrants, and then goes on to generalize about working women. BTW, for > an excellent resource on photos of emigrants in this period, check the > Mormon archives in SLC. Fascinating, and the curators are very helpful > and accessible by phone. Many of these show --yes! corseted emigrants > --and immigrants, too. Just don't take anything their clothing > researchers have to say as cold hard fact without verifying it yourself. > Secondary sources should be verified whenever possible, and I have heard > some interesting claims made that could not later be verified. > > >I am no expert, and do not wish to incite more argument, but you asked > if you > >sounded unfairly hostile, and I thought perhaps you did, even if not > meaning > >to. > > It probably did, but I didn't see anyone else pointing out the obvious. > This is one of my buttons, as some of you already know from past > experience, and I do think that trying to legitimize today an outdated > opinion is pretty insulting and condescending in itself. > > It just seems that this point of the history of when and if corsets > were > >worn on the frontier by varying classes of women, is a slightly gray > one, and > >that there is room for both opinions within reason. > > As long as they are stated as Opinions, and not given out as guidelines. > I did say that I was presenting the other side of the argument. > > It also seems to me that > >if one opinion says "probably" and here is the evidence; and the other > says > >"if there is not any direct evidence then it is wrong not to make > assumptions" > >the former is frankly, more sound. > > This is actually what I was doing, and I did not see "probably" anywhere > in his argument. In fact, he tries to make the case that because many > of us wear bras today, we try to say they wore corsets back then. In > actuality, the opposite is more likely the case. Many of us wear as few > foundation pieces as possible today, and we try to get by without them > when we portray "back then." Having had the experience of working in > early 19th c. corsets of the type I speak of (sensible stays) or wearing > boned stays every single day for over a year and a half, I think I know > more about the subject than any man could ever hope to. I would never > say I know about wearing tailcoats, or breeches, the latter because I > frankly do not have the equipment to put in them. And so, I frankly > resent his statement "Actually, I do know about corsets." > > (BTW, I have seen and examined a tailcoat made at home by a loving wife > c. 1828. No, it is not professionally tailored. And how many of us > have made sensible stays? It is NOT necessary now, nor was it then, to > have them made professionally. His claims in that direction are moot.) > > >From my private responses, there is a silent number of members who were > glad I spoke out. It was interesting to note that the direction the > conversation was going was pretty much against Mr. Rickman's > generalizations until it became apparent he was a member of this list. > > Toujours, la politesse. > > Susannah > > "We are only the trustees for those who come after us." --William > Morris > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > _________________________________________________________________ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME - -- - ---------------------------------------------- Visit our web sites! Books on historic costume and vintage clothes http://www.best.com/~lavolta/index.htm Vintage and historic dance http://www.best.com/~lavolta/dance/index.htm _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Lady Eleanor Date: Thu, 04 Mar 1999 15:42:56 -0800 Subject: Re: H-COST: foams..reg vs. hard?? Hunh?? - -Poster: Lady Eleanor Kara, Have you seen the "Duct Tape Double" web site? Here's a link with instructions "how to". http://www.leanna.com/DuctTapeDouble/ She suggests a heavy wooden coat hanger, on a heavy duty cardboard tube...full details on the web page. Someone else suggested PVC pipe, 3" for center, a "T" at the top and more pipe for the shoulders. That would be sturdier, I should think. Kara Rodgers wrote: > > -Poster: Kara Rodgers > > OK, so the duct-tape over a tee shirt filled with foam, fiber-fill etc, > sounds a like a reasonable alternative for someone who doesn't want to > spend a lot of money right now, but what sort of stand do you put it on? > Is ther a cheap, easy alternative for someone who doesn't have access to a > wood shop? > > Also, is the fiber-fill sturdy enough to take the weight of any dress at > all? or do you need to provide a more solid foundation for it? Well...jd? Is it?? I was wondering the same thing! > I've never owned a dress-form before, can't afford to buy one and never > thought of making one, but this thread is making me think about trying... > > Kara >From what I have heard from those that have...it's a good and workable solution. Good luck! Eleanor > > _________________________________________________________________ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: MzScahlett@aol.com Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 18:49:51 EST Subject: H-COST: Hot topics/Corsets, etc. - -Poster: MzScahlett@aol.com I inadvertenly posted a private message to Mr. Rickman to the list. I'm dreadfully sorry to anyone who might find it unpleasant. It was not my intention to further this thread and I will be dropping it from here on out. I am of a differing opinion than many, but Fran's point of turning the list into a he-said/she-said or us/them forum is a good one and I don't want any part of it. Sincerest apologies, angela lazear _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Scott Hulett Date: Thu, 04 Mar 1999 15:57:22 -0800 Subject: Re: H-COST: Re:Foams...reg. vs hard?? Hunh? - -Poster: Scott Hulett Lady Eleanor, Yes, I think the ductape would work for now, it sure freed me up to really go for some fitted stuff without having to have my sewing buddy around(especially at 1:00 am after my baby is sleeping). But just to play devils advocate, Wolff and Co. dress forms can be made special order to your measurements, they come on a beautiful iron rolling base and can be made with legs. Last I checked (someone else will probably know this) they were around 575.00. I dream of having one some day. And some while ago, Richard the Thread here in LA had used Wolff and Co. dress forms for around 175. - 250. I have no idea if he still has any, but if you want to build one up as was discussed earlier on the thread, why not do it on a really great base? Just a few thoughts, good luck! jd Lady Eleanor wrote: > -Poster: Lady Eleanor > > Hi jd, > > Hulett wrote: > > > > -Poster: Hulett > > > > About the cost of fillers. I got bags of fiber fill at walmart for 2.00 per > > bag and it took ten bags to fill my form. One can of spray foam cost 7.50 > > and only filled 1/4 of my form. The shipping place near me charges 12.00 > > per square foot, so I'd be doing something extravagent if I used them, > > since it would be about 4-5 square feet to fill my form. > > Welllll....that's something to consider... > > I *wonder*...You know those nasty little styro chips that > look Cheetos, that are used by > everyone these days when shipping breakables? I wonder, > could you sort of > combine the spray and those things? I used to have trash > bags full of > them in the garage...got rid of most, but I think I've still > got some. I > know they sell them by the bag at U-Haul rental > stores...just in case > some don't happen to have oodles of them piling up in the > corner. ;-) > > Does the foam give you *any* time at all to mix...so that > you could sort of > stir the chips in? Maybe layering would be better. > (scratching head). > > Did anyone > > mention yet the article in Threads about different homemade dress forms? I > > have it if anyone wants a copy. > > I think *you* just did! ;-) Saw it, got it...great > article! > > I will probably make two forms, one of me > > in a corset and one of me natural 'cause I do alot of both. Rather than a > > form that I could corset. > > Yup...I had the same thought... > > I have dismal luck with that sort of thing being > > short waisted and of rather zaftig proportions. > > Ditto! > > Total cost on my last > > ductape double was 75.00 and that included the cool base my husband made > > with for me. > > And I will cover both in canvas or knit so I have something to pin to. > > cheers, jd > > That's not bad! Didn't you say you used PVC for the stand > and shoulders or > was that someone else? > > At the very least a duct tape one might tide me over until I > can splurge on > the Fab Fit with the cast iron base. :-) > > Eleanor > _________________________________________________________________ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Gia Gavino-Gattshall" Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 16:07:23 -0800 Subject: Re: H-COST: corseting mannequins - -Poster: "Gia Gavino-Gattshall" Ah! Excellent suggestion! Thank you Eleanor! sheet foam rubber *would* (I think) work much better... Gia/Giacinta happily, off to Joanne's >-Poster: Lady Eleanor > >What about sheet foam rubber? I comes in a number of >thicknesses...1/4", 1/2", 1", and up. It comes on rolls, >easy to cut with scissors if not too thick...isn't >expensive, fairly easy to find, and might give a more >uniform thickness than batting...altho' depends on the >batting. > >A thought here...*not* worked out...it just occured to >me...If weight gain is more or less uniform, I wonder if one >couldn't shape the foam by cutting in four sections like a >close fitting dress, from a pattern, and then glue the seams >together...butting the blunt edges, and leave the back seam >open so that it could be put on the form. OR...maybe you >would have to handsew the foam together with large >stitches...blunt edge to blunt edge. Then put your new >fabric cover over to hold it in place. > >That would reduce some of the unecessary bulk of wrapping >flat foam around a rounded shape like a dress form. Then if >some particular areas need a little more...maybe borrow from >the Fab. Fit. idea, and slip an extra piece under the >required spot. Just a thought. > >Lady Eleanor > >Michel McCabe wrote: >> >> -Poster: Michel McCabe >> >> >I plan on doing another 'cover' to bring it up to my size, but also make it >> >so that it can be corseted. I was wondering which kind of batting I should >> >> I would suggest the somewhat "stiffer" foam that is commonly used for cussions >> on a couch or chair. It is realtively easy to cut and could be "sculpted" >> to better fit your need. >> >> _________________________________________________________________ >> To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com >> with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME > _________________________________________________________________ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME > _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ End of h-costume-digest V4 #196 ******************************* _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME-DIGEST From ???@??? Mon Mar 08 13:11:24 1999 Received: from mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE (mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE [130.149.4.16]) by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA25048 for ; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 06:02:44 +0100 (MET) Received: from mail.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.15]) by mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10Iml1-0004rq-01; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 06:02:43 +0100 Received: from coal.bg.tu-berlin.de by mail.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Fri, 5 Mar 1999 06:02:35 +0100 Received: from mail2.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.14]) by mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10Imkp-0004re-00; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 06:02:31 +0100 Received: from tubkom.prz.tu-berlin.de by mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Fri, 5 Mar 1999 06:02:30 +0100 Received: from mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE (mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE [130.149.4.16]) by tubkom.prz.tu-berlin.de (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id GAA22426 for ; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 06:01:14 +0100 (MEZ) Received: from mail.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.15]) by mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10Imkk-0004rK-00; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 06:02:26 +0100 Received: from server.indra.com by mail.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Fri, 5 Mar 1999 06:02:10 +0100 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.8.5/) with ESMTP id WAA01793; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 22:15:29 -0700 (MST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id WAA03134 for h-costume-digest-outgoing; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 22:00:46 -0700 (MST) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 22:00:46 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199903050500.WAA03134@indra.com> From: owner-h-costume-digest@indra.com To: h-costume-digest@indra.com Subject: h-costume-digest V4 #197 Reply-To: h-costume-digest@indra.com Errors-To: owner-h-costume-digest@indra.com Precedence: bulk Status: O h-costume-digest Thursday, 4 March 1999 Volume 04 : Number 197 In this issue: Re: H-COST: Re:Foams...reg. vs hard?? Hunh? RE: H-COST: Project ideas RE: H-COST: Re:Foams...reg. vs hard?? Hunh? RE: H-COST: De claris mulieribus Re: H-COST: Forum or Argument?/was corsets Re: H-COST: foams..reg vs. hard?? Hunh?? Re: H-COST: Fabric sources in Austin and NYC H-COST: project ideas Re: H-COST: Medieval hunting (was riding astride, 1850's) Re: H-COST: Foams...reg. vs hard?? Hunh? H-COST: More info on Fabulous Fit... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Scott Hulett Date: Thu, 04 Mar 1999 16:36:03 -0800 Subject: Re: H-COST: Re:Foams...reg. vs hard?? Hunh? - -Poster: Scott Hulett Lady Eleanor, I think the combined plastic peanut and foam idea is great! The only problem with the foam is, that it is hard. So no give at all when working around the bossoms. Though I used old shoulder pads that I cut out of garments to fill the boobs and that seem to work pretty well. Although, lets face it, we're talking about a duct form which is in itself pretty stiff. I couldn't even get my corset on my form. That's how I decided on making a form with my corset on. I've made four of these now, and it gets easier everytime. cheers, jd Lady Eleanor wrote: > -Poster: Lady Eleanor > > Hi jd, > > Hulett wrote: > > > > -Poster: Hulett > > > > About the cost of fillers. I got bags of fiber fill at walmart for 2.00 per > > bag and it took ten bags to fill my form. One can of spray foam cost 7.50 > > and only filled 1/4 of my form. The shipping place near me charges 12.00 > > per square foot, so I'd be doing something extravagent if I used them, > > since it would be about 4-5 square feet to fill my form. > > Welllll....that's something to consider... > > I *wonder*...You know those nasty little styro chips that > look Cheetos, that are used by > everyone these days when shipping breakables? I wonder, > could you sort of > combine the spray and those things? I used to have trash > bags full of > them in the garage...got rid of most, but I think I've still > got some. I > know they sell them by the bag at U-Haul rental > stores...just in case > some don't happen to have oodles of them piling up in the > corner. ;-) > > Does the foam give you *any* time at all to mix...so that > you could sort of > stir the chips in? Maybe layering would be better. > (scratching head). > > Did anyone > > mention yet the article in Threads about different homemade dress forms? I > > have it if anyone wants a copy. > > I think *you* just did! ;-) Saw it, got it...great > article! > > I will probably make two forms, one of me > > in a corset and one of me natural 'cause I do alot of both. Rather than a > > form that I could corset. > > Yup...I had the same thought... > > I have dismal luck with that sort of thing being > > short waisted and of rather zaftig proportions. > > Ditto! > > Total cost on my last > > ductape double was 75.00 and that included the cool base my husband made > > with for me. > > And I will cover both in canvas or knit so I have something to pin to. > > cheers, jd > > That's not bad! Didn't you say you used PVC for the stand > and shoulders or > was that someone else? > > At the very least a duct tape one might tide me over until I > can splurge on > the Fab Fit with the cast iron base. :-) > > Eleanor > _________________________________________________________________ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Hope H. Dunlap" Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 19:11:03 -0500 Subject: RE: H-COST: Project ideas - -Poster: "Hope H. Dunlap" You are surely right about the date. I was focused more on a practical plus of such a project, and that is having a lot of kimonos left over to recycle directly into one's leisure- and formal- wear collection! Except for all the sword whacking and the length, the book reads remarkably easily. I don't pretend to have made it all the way through. When I was in college, I was taught by one of the most pre-eminent English departments in the world, that the first real novel was early 18th Century, and the only one worth remembering today was Pamela by Samuel Richardson in 1741. Imagine the rend in my complacent world view some years later when I discovered Tales of the Gengi written way earlier. Hope H. Dunlap - -----Original Message----- From: owner-h-costume@indra.com [mailto:owner-h-costume@indra.com]On Behalf Of Laurel Wilson Sent: Thursday, March 04, 1999 11:14 AM To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: H-COST: Project ideas - -Poster: Laurel Wilson > Tales from the Gengi, the 17th Century Japanese novel by a > noblewoman would be fun to research, costumes easy to sew, > but dramatic, and if the clothes don't keep them awake, the > sword play and beheadings will. This is a really neat and imaginative idea. It's the "Tale of Genji," and far older than seventeenth century: 11th or 12th, I think. Lauri ____________________________________________________________ _____ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Hope H. Dunlap" Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 19:21:35 -0500 Subject: RE: H-COST: Re:Foams...reg. vs hard?? Hunh? - -Poster: "Hope H. Dunlap" Well, carving would kind of gouge into it. Maybe sawing would work. We were trying to make it look like a pile of rocks, so what came out of the can over the cubes of styrofoam gave us just the exact texture we wanted. When people want to cut hard foam neatly, they do it with a hot wire. I never had one of these things, but some of my classmates in design school made them to cut prismatic solids with. The concept is the wire cheese knife, only with an electrical current passing through it to heat it. It slips throught the foam nicely, off-gassing enough to make everyone around a bit green areound the gills. But for the outside of a dress form, sure you could fix your mistakes. It would look tackly, but you could always cover it with a layer of batting and cover it with a knit fabric. Hope H. Dunlap - -----Original Message----- From: owner-h-costume@indra.com [mailto:owner-h-costume@indra.com]On Behalf Of Betsy Delaney Sent: Thursday, March 04, 1999 12:56 PM To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: H-COST: Re:Foams...reg. vs hard?? Hunh? - -Poster: Betsy Delaney Does this stuff carve at all, or does it harden too much? Sounds like a likely possibility for the next one I make. Thanks! - -betsy Hope H. Dunlap wrote: > > -Poster: "Hope H. Dunlap" > > For about 8 dollars, you can buy an aerosol foam product in > Home Depot. It's sold next to the styrofoam board > insulation, and is for pfouffing into cracks to keep out the > cold, rodents, fix mistakes, etc. My son made a cave and a > dragon by breaking up styrofoam board insulation into > blocks, sticking the parts together rather haphazardly with > toothpicks to get the general shape, and then squirted the > aerosol foam onto it to hold it all in place. It comes out > of the can the consistency of stiff meringue, and set up as > sturdy as a bomb shelter. I think you could build a house > for humans using this method. And, was it quick and fun! > Such a satisfying result. One to two cans would easily fill > a duct tape double, although, it would be cheaper to pack in > some scrap styrofoam first and then use the aerosol just for > morter. It set up hard in a few hours. > > Hope H. Dunlap > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-h-costume@indra.com > [mailto:owner-h-costume@indra.com]On > Behalf Of Hulett > Sent: Wednesday, March 03, 1999 6:03 PM > To: 'h-costume@indra.com' > Subject: RE: H-COST: Re:Foams...reg. vs hard?? Hunh? > > -Poster: Hulett > > -----Original Message----- > From: Lady Eleanor [SMTP:hekav@gte.net] > Sent: Monday, March 01, 1999 7:43 AM > To: h-costume@indra.com > Subject: H-COST: Re:Foams...reg. vs hard?? Hunh? > > I used soft foam or batting for the filling, the kind you > get at Walmart. > The smaller parts were hard foam. Though I've lost some > weight now and will > have to make another so I'm hoping to improve on the design > a little. The > shipping place near me does hard foam injecting for shipping > fragil objects > and I want to try taking my ductape form in the see how much > it would cost > to inject it. Or just the limbs again. The only other thing > I would change > is adding a fabric cover so I'd have something to pin to. > cheers, jd > -Poster: Lady Eleanor > > "Regular foam"..."hard foam"??? Could you supply any brand > names here? > > Thanks, > Lady Eleanor > > Hulett wrote: > > > > -Poster: Hulett > > > > That is exactly what I did on my whole dress form. It > worked great. (I > did > > fill the body cavity with regular foam though, just the > legs and arms > were > > hard foam) > > cheers, jd > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Marie Schulte [SMTP:mschulte@post.its.mcw.edu] > > Sent: Monday, March 01, 1999 6:56 AM > > To: h-costume@indra.com > > Subject: Re: H-COST: foot forms > > > > -Poster: Marie Schulte > > > > > -Poster: "Kathryn L. Herb" > > > > > > And to expand on your inquiry, does anyone know where I > can get foot > > > forms with the lower leg attached? I'm doing custom > woolen hose (woven > > > > Kay- > > > > A friend of mine who makes shoes makes individual lasts of > a person's > feet > > by doing a version of the duct tape/t-shirt pattern. He > uses a sock. > > After taping it up and cutting it off the person, he tapes > it back into a > > 'foot-lower leg form' and fills it with the aerosol foam > insulation. > > Maybe that will work for you. > > > > > ____________________________________________________________ > _____ > > To leave this mailing list, send mail to > majordomo@indra.com > > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME > > > > > ____________________________________________________________ > _____ > > To leave this mailing list, send mail to > majordomo@indra.com > > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME > > ____________________________________________________________ > _____ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to > majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME > > ____________________________________________________________ > _____ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to > majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME > > ____________________________________________________________ _____ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME - -- Betsy R. Delaney Webmistress at large ************************************************************ ************ betsy@hawkeswood.com or betsy@ability.net http://www.hawkeswood.com/, home of Hawkeswood Designs and http://www.Costume-Con.org/, home of Costume-ConNections (If you still have betsy@access.digex.net, change my address *NOW*!) ************************************************************ ************ ____________________________________________________________ _____ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Hope H. Dunlap" Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 19:41:22 -0500 Subject: RE: H-COST: De claris mulieribus - -Poster: "Hope H. Dunlap" All I said was that there are other souces of females astride. Sorry if I missed the subtlty of scholarly developed thought there. It's *definitely* my knee-jerk (and not very scholarly) reaction when I perceive someone is focussing too hard on the "Western World" to realize it's all a bit trivial when the whole world is taken into account. OK, not appropriate here. I'll try to wrestle that knee down, while you have a truly intelligent discussion. I must have been a Sythian in a former life or something. Hope H. Dunlap - ----Original Message----- From: owner-h-costume@indra.com [mailto:owner-h-costume@indra.com]On Behalf Of Carole Frick Sent: Thursday, March 04, 1999 1:00 PM To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: H-COST: De claris mulieribus - -Poster: Carole Frick Dear Ms. Dunlap, Wasn't the illumination of a female riding astride that Kara referred to illustrating Boccaccio's 14th-c. Latin text? Are there "Sythian women, Roxelanas, and ancient female warriers from Ubekistan" in this text? If so, I am not aware of them. Greek and Roman and Italian women however, DO dominate the examples of "remarkable women" in _De claris mulieribus_. That was why I suggested precisely what I suggested. As a historian, I am primarily interested in images as historical artifacts which must be read very specifically, keeping purpose in mind. Carole Collier Frick, Ph.D. Department of Historical Studies Southern Illinois University ____________________________________________________________ _____ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Margo Anderson Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 16:59:34 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: H-COST: Forum or Argument?/was corsets - -Poster: Margo Anderson Good grief, I asked one question about a writer's statement and look at all this hoo-hah! Just what is going on here? His book is generally excellent. I found ONE STATEMENT in the whole thing that I wanted clarification on, so I brought it here. I got several different answers, one of them his, and all of them useful for me to use as a base on which to do my own further investigation and to do my own research. And yes, the book is geographically and chronologically narrower than many. That's a strength, not a failing. I'm putting together materials for an event that is 50 miles away and a decade later than the place and time he describes. For my purposes, it's near ideal. It would be useful for anyone researching California just before the Gold Rush. Margo Anderson _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Cynthia Bucheger" Date: Thu, 04 Mar 1999 19:16:37 -0600 Subject: Re: H-COST: foams..reg vs. hard?? Hunh?? - -Poster: "Cynthia Bucheger" I've made one of these forms, I used a scrap pieces of 2 x 2, about four foot tall, inserted into a christmas tree stand. Next go around I'd go with the PVC and hanger inside, but that should still work with the christmas tree stand. Alexandria > > OK, so the duct-tape over a tee shirt filled with foam, fiber-fill etc, > sounds a like a reasonable alternative for someone who doesn't want to > spend a lot of money right now, but what sort of stand do you put it on? > Is ther a cheap, easy alternative for someone who doesn't have access to a > wood shop? > > Also, is the fiber-fill sturdy enough to take the weight of any dress at > all? or do you need to provide a more solid foundation for it? > > I've never owned a dress-form before, can't afford to buy one and never > thought of making one, but this thread is making me think about trying... > > Kara _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Christina Date: Thu, 04 Mar 1999 19:11:48 -0600 Subject: Re: H-COST: Fabric sources in Austin and NYC - -Poster: Christina Teddy wrote: > -Poster: Teddy > > Hello, > > A friend of mine, here in the UK, will soon be making a business trip > to the US. She will be spending some time in Austin (Sp?), Texas and > in NYC.... > I live in Austin... Feel free to give her my email addy. (magdlena@texas.net) She needs to hit Silk Road, London Fabrics, and Scotland Yards, with possiblities towards Hancock Fabrics and JoAnne. The first three are all readily accessible by bus, as are most of the H & Js. Depending on when she is here and wants to shop, I might be able to play friendly native tour guide and chauffeur. Silk Road is _the_ place she must see. - -Magdalena _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Sara J. Davitt" Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 20:26:54 -0600 (CST) Subject: H-COST: project ideas - -Poster: "Sara J. Davitt" I don't know about anyone else... BUT.. I recently finished Memoirs of a Geisha... by Arthur Golden, and loved it,.. and I was facinated by the detail of all the garments worn by the giesha. kinda steamy... and a good read... so if you think they can handle it, and if you don't mind using a contemporary author... it might be a good choice. Good luck! Sarahj ps. the third criteria is the hardest.. and if I remember anything about being a H.S. Senior (and being a college senior now) is that Chuancer, and his ilk are drone materials.. (not because thy are not facinating.. but the wording causes sleeping problems.) **2Y's**UR**2Y's**UB**IC**UR**2Y's**4Me** _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Julie Adams Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 18:32:41 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: H-COST: Medieval hunting (was riding astride, 1850's) - -Poster: Julie Adams >-Poster: Melanie Wilson > > >> Renaissance hunting >on horseback. > >Renaiisance isn't Medieval I also said Middle ages (meaning 14th & 15th c european). There are lots of sources, especially tapestries showing women hunting aside. But like Kara mentioned they are often sporting bows or crossbows. From the costume perspective, its never obvious that they are wearing any special "riding attire", but look to be in normal upper class dress of their period. Julie Adams _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Megan McHugh" Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 22:03:09 -0500 Subject: Re: H-COST: Foams...reg. vs hard?? Hunh? - -Poster: "Megan McHugh" >Still thinking about how to make one base work for several bodies....... Perhaps you could do what I have done. I went to a used fixture place and bought a dress form for $75.00. It has a sturdy wooden base, and an aproximately size 4 body on it. I am much closer to a 24 than a 4. I made a duct tape double, put that over the form, and filled in the difference with polyester stuffing, bought on sale. It only took 3 large bags, for a cost of about $5.00 total additional, to put this one on. Because the female form is so small, I could easily duct tape my husband and then fill in the difference between the forms for him too, although it would take alot more stuffing. Any way, this way I can change the duct tape overform any time I need to, and stuff the difference. This should work for most medium to large size adults. Good luck. _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Lady Eleanor Date: Thu, 04 Mar 1999 20:56:43 -0800 Subject: H-COST: More info on Fabulous Fit... - -Poster: Lady Eleanor Here's some additional info on the Fab. Fit Form that I thought might be of interest. :-) Cheers, Lady Eleanor ello Lady Eleanor--Thanks for your note. The bodywrap is a fiber "skirt" and "bustier" that's wrapped around the form before you use the pads. It really just increases the size of the form. It's an additional $15.00, if you buy it with the form. Shipping rates are quoted in the US. We're in process of setting up our representatives--although if you visit any of the sewing shows in Seattle, Vogue Patterns always uses our forms. We would love to hearing from you...(800) 853-9644--and we're happy to send a brochure _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ End of h-costume-digest V4 #197 ******************************* _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME-DIGEST From ???@??? Mon Mar 08 13:11:29 1999 Received: from mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE (mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE [130.149.4.16]) by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA00824 for ; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 15:09:56 +0100 (MET) Received: from mail.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.15]) by mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10IvIZ-0007aC-00; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 15:09:55 +0100 Received: from coal.bg.tu-berlin.de by mail.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Fri, 5 Mar 1999 15:09:46 +0100 Received: from mail2.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.14]) by mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10IvHw-0007Z0-00; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 15:09:16 +0100 Received: from tubkom.prz.tu-berlin.de by mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Fri, 5 Mar 1999 15:09:01 +0100 Received: from mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE (mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE [130.149.4.16]) by tubkom.prz.tu-berlin.de (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA26199 for ; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 15:07:44 +0100 (MEZ) Received: from mail.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.15]) by mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10IvHd-0007Yi-00; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 15:08:57 +0100 Received: from server.indra.com by mail.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Fri, 5 Mar 1999 15:08:32 +0100 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.8.5/) with ESMTP id HAA17468; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 07:22:00 -0700 (MST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id HAA08676 for h-costume-digest-outgoing; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 07:07:00 -0700 (MST) Date: Fri, 5 Mar 1999 07:07:00 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199903051407.HAA08676@indra.com> From: owner-h-costume-digest@indra.com To: h-costume-digest@indra.com Subject: h-costume-digest V4 #198 Reply-To: h-costume-digest@indra.com Errors-To: owner-h-costume-digest@indra.com Precedence: bulk Status: O h-costume-digest Friday, 5 March 1999 Volume 04 : Number 198 In this issue: Re: H-COST: Foams...reg. vs hard?? Hunh? Re: H-COST: Re:Foams...reg. vs hard?? Hunh? Re: H-COST: corseting mannequins Re: H-COST: Re:Foams...reg. vs hard?? Hunh? Re: H-COST: Foams...reg. vs hard?? Hunh? Re: H-COST: Fabric sources in Austin and NYC H-COST: Re: Foams...reg. vs hard?? Hunh? H-COST: Re: Mimes H-COST: sidesaddle Re: H-COST: foams..reg vs. hard?? Hunh?? Re: H-COST: Lots of info just posted to www.Costume-Con.org! Re: H-COST: Re: Foams...reg. vs hard?? Hunh? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Lady Eleanor Date: Thu, 04 Mar 1999 21:00:05 -0800 Subject: Re: H-COST: Foams...reg. vs hard?? Hunh? - -Poster: Lady Eleanor Now THAT'S a GREAT IDEA! That way you get good support under the duct tape form and a way to use if for more than one size!! I like it! Now, where can I find a used a used fixture place (flip, flip, flipping throught phone book). :-) Lady Eleanor Megan McHugh wrote: > > -Poster: "Megan McHugh" > > >Still thinking about how to make one base work for several bodies....... > > Perhaps you could do what I have done. I went to a used fixture place and > bought a dress form for $75.00. It has a sturdy wooden base, and an > aproximately size 4 body on it. I am much closer to a 24 than a 4. I made > a duct tape double, put that over the form, and filled in the difference > with polyester stuffing, bought on sale. It only took 3 large bags, for a > cost of about $5.00 total additional, to put this one on. Because the > female form is so small, I could easily duct tape my husband and then fill > in the difference between the forms for him too, although it would take alot > more stuffing. Any way, this way I can change the duct tape overform any > time I need to, and stuff the difference. This should work for most medium > to large size adults. Good luck. > > _________________________________________________________________ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Lady Eleanor Date: Thu, 04 Mar 1999 21:07:59 -0800 Subject: Re: H-COST: Re:Foams...reg. vs hard?? Hunh? - -Poster: Lady Eleanor Hi jd, Scott Hulett wrote: > > -Poster: Scott Hulett > > Lady Eleanor, > Yes, I think the ductape would work for now, it sure freed me up to really go > for some fitted stuff without having to have my sewing buddy around(especially at > 1:00 am after my baby is sleeping). I know exactly what you mean! I was SO impressed with the way the duct tape helped me fit my Eliz. bodice!! Why didn't I know about this decades ago? ;-) But just to play devils advocate, Wolff and > Co. dress forms can be made special order to your measurements, they come on a > beautiful iron rolling base and can be made with legs. Last I checked (someone > else will probably know this) they were around 575.00. GACK! Yup! It was the Wolff that I referred to a ways back, and that's the price range I remember. *sniff* I dream of having one > some day. Me too. But since they are made to measure...you're still stuck with problems if the figure shifts...(does the sun come up in the morning?!?) :-) And some while ago, Richard the Thread here in LA had used Wolff and > Co. dress forms for around 175. - 250. I have no idea if he still has any, but if > you want to build one up as was discussed earlier on the thread, why not do it on > a really great base? > Just a few thoughts, good luck! jd Yes, a super base...but, the used price is not that far off from what one would pay for a new Fab. Fit in the proper size...sooooo.... But thanks for the input... I'm starting to narrow the field here as to which direction I want to go. :-) Cheers, Lady Eleanor > > Lady Eleanor wrote: > > > -Poster: Lady Eleanor > > > > Hi jd, > > > > Hulett wrote: > > > > > > -Poster: Hulett > > > > > > About the cost of fillers. I got bags of fiber fill at walmart for 2.00 per > > > bag and it took ten bags to fill my form. One can of spray foam cost 7.50 > > > and only filled 1/4 of my form. The shipping place near me charges 12.00 > > > per square foot, so I'd be doing something extravagent if I used them, > > > since it would be about 4-5 square feet to fill my form. > > > > Welllll....that's something to consider... > > > > I *wonder*...You know those nasty little styro chips that > > look Cheetos, that are used by > > everyone these days when shipping breakables? I wonder, > > could you sort of > > combine the spray and those things? I used to have trash > > bags full of > > them in the garage...got rid of most, but I think I've still > > got some. I > > know they sell them by the bag at U-Haul rental > > stores...just in case > > some don't happen to have oodles of them piling up in the > > corner. ;-) > > > > Does the foam give you *any* time at all to mix...so that > > you could sort of > > stir the chips in? Maybe layering would be better. > > (scratching head). > > > > Did anyone > > > mention yet the article in Threads about different homemade dress forms? I > > > have it if anyone wants a copy. > > > > I think *you* just did! ;-) Saw it, got it...great > > article! > > > > I will probably make two forms, one of me > > > in a corset and one of me natural 'cause I do alot of both. Rather than a > > > form that I could corset. > > > > Yup...I had the same thought... > > > > I have dismal luck with that sort of thing being > > > short waisted and of rather zaftig proportions. > > > > Ditto! > > > > Total cost on my last > > > ductape double was 75.00 and that included the cool base my husband made > > > with for me. > > > And I will cover both in canvas or knit so I have something to pin to. > > > cheers, jd > > > > That's not bad! Didn't you say you used PVC for the stand > > and shoulders or > > was that someone else? > > > > At the very least a duct tape one might tide me over until I > > can splurge on > > the Fab Fit with the cast iron base. :-) > > > > Eleanor > > _________________________________________________________________ > > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME > > _________________________________________________________________ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Lady Eleanor Date: Thu, 04 Mar 1999 21:08:49 -0800 Subject: Re: H-COST: corseting mannequins - -Poster: Lady Eleanor You're welcome. Let us know how you get on! Lady Eleanor Gia Gavino-Gattshall wrote: > > -Poster: "Gia Gavino-Gattshall" > > Ah! Excellent suggestion! > > Thank you Eleanor! sheet foam rubber *would* (I think) work much better... > > Gia/Giacinta > happily, off to Joanne's > > >-Poster: Lady Eleanor > > > >What about sheet foam rubber? I comes in a number of > >thicknesses...1/4", 1/2", 1", and up. It comes on rolls, > >easy to cut with scissors if not too thick...isn't > >expensive, fairly easy to find, and might give a more > >uniform thickness than batting...altho' depends on the > >batting. > > > >A thought here...*not* worked out...it just occured to > >me...If weight gain is more or less uniform, I wonder if one > >couldn't shape the foam by cutting in four sections like a > >close fitting dress, from a pattern, and then glue the seams > >together...butting the blunt edges, and leave the back seam > >open so that it could be put on the form. OR...maybe you > >would have to handsew the foam together with large > >stitches...blunt edge to blunt edge. Then put your new > >fabric cover over to hold it in place. > > > >That would reduce some of the unecessary bulk of wrapping > >flat foam around a rounded shape like a dress form. Then if > >some particular areas need a little more...maybe borrow from > >the Fab. Fit. idea, and slip an extra piece under the > >required spot. Just a thought. > > > >Lady Eleanor > > > >Michel McCabe wrote: > >> > >> -Poster: Michel McCabe > >> > >> >I plan on doing another 'cover' to bring it up to my size, but also make > it > >> >so that it can be corseted. I was wondering which kind of batting I > should > >> > >> I would suggest the somewhat "stiffer" foam that is commonly used for > cussions > >> on a couch or chair. It is realtively easy to cut and could be > "sculpted" > >> to better fit your need. > >> > >> _________________________________________________________________ > >> To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > >> with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME > > _________________________________________________________________ > > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Lady Eleanor Date: Thu, 04 Mar 1999 21:15:43 -0800 Subject: Re: H-COST: Re:Foams...reg. vs hard?? Hunh? - -Poster: Lady Eleanor jd, If I can succeed in finding a miniscule form (Size 4! Ha! What a laugh!!) let's see, then I could do the same thing...one with corset... one without...over a used fixture form...removeable duct tape form...fiber filling between. Yup, yup, yup! I'm getting it! ;-) Then it wouldn't matter if the thing were hard or soft...and, I'd get the benefit of a sturdy frame for the heavy gowns. It would work! Wahoo! I'm ready to go now. :-) Thanks! Lady Eleanor _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Lady Eleanor Date: Thu, 04 Mar 1999 21:17:37 -0800 Subject: Re: H-COST: Foams...reg. vs hard?? Hunh? - -Poster: Lady Eleanor That is such a good idea! With this I could easy change the duct tape form to fit most of the people I sew for! I like it! Thanks, Eleanor Megan McHugh wrote: > > -Poster: "Megan McHugh" > > >Still thinking about how to make one base work for several bodies....... > > Perhaps you could do what I have done. I went to a used fixture place and > bought a dress form for $75.00. It has a sturdy wooden base, and an > aproximately size 4 body on it. I am much closer to a 24 than a 4. I made > a duct tape double, put that over the form, and filled in the difference > with polyester stuffing, bought on sale. It only took 3 large bags, for a > cost of about $5.00 total additional, to put this one on. Because the > female form is so small, I could easily duct tape my husband and then fill > in the difference between the forms for him too, although it would take alot > more stuffing. Any way, this way I can change the duct tape overform any > time I need to, and stuff the difference. This should work for most medium > to large size adults. Good luck. > > _________________________________________________________________ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: cynthia j ley Date: Fri, 05 Mar 1999 01:39:09 EST Subject: Re: H-COST: Fabric sources in Austin and NYC - -Poster: cynthia j ley Could someone please post the full info on the George Digby book again? I managed to delete it! :( Thanks! Arlys ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Dietmar Date: Thu, 04 Mar 1999 14:50:58 +0000 Subject: H-COST: Re: Foams...reg. vs hard?? Hunh? - -Poster: Dietmar Greetings, Hope H. Dunlap wrote, > For about 8 dollars, you can buy an aerosol foam product in Home Depot. > It's sold next to the styrofoam board insulation, and is for pfouffing > into cracks to keep out the cold, rodents, fix mistakes, etc. > One to two cans would easily fill a duct tape double, although, it would > be cheaper to pack in some scrap styrofoam first and then use the aerosol > just for morter. It set up hard in a few hours. You may not be entirely satisfied with this foam product. Repeated contact (such as pinning and repinning) will cause the foam to crumble into a very fine yellow powder. It sets extremely hard and you have little control over the amount of expansion, but I suppose it could be carved as necessary. Regards, Dietmar "Victory or Defeat rests in God's hands; over Honor, we ourselves are Lord and Master." _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Dietmar Date: Thu, 04 Mar 1999 14:59:50 +0000 Subject: H-COST: Re: Mimes - -Poster: Dietmar Greetings all, Someone (my apologies, I've forgotten who) wrote: >> I have absolutely no clue -- this isn't my period. Could someone please >> offer me some advice as to what a mime would wear, if there's something >> particular to mimes? I have a catalog book of some Past Patterns if you >> can use any of them as examples. Susan Carroll-Clark replied: > Mimes did exist in the Middle Ages, but I've not seen evidence of special > clothing specific to just them. The closest thing I could find is renaissance German from the early 16th century. In the Triumph of Maximilian there are some men dressed for masquerade. (Not exactly what you were seeking either.) They are dressed in what looks rather like everyday dress of the period except for simple masks that cover their faces. The masks are made of netting to hide their identity, almost like black mosquito netting. It's a woodcut, so I can't be certain of colors. Good luck, Dietmar "Victory or Defeat rests in God's hands; over Honor, we ourselves are Lord and Master." _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Heather Law Date: Fri, 05 Mar 1999 02:30:32 -0800 Subject: H-COST: sidesaddle - -Poster: Heather Law Anne of Bohemia, first wife of Richard II, is credited or discredited with introducing side saddle to England, along with horned headdresses. Eleanor of Acquitaine, Richard's ancestress, is known to history for among other things, riding over the Pyrenees in winter when she over 70 years of age, not something she could have done in a sidesaddle. As to the disgust over her riding astride, rumor has it that she was fleeing from her first husband, Louis of France, in male disguise, and was found out by the spots of blood on the saddle. As for the hunting reference, this is certainly a difference in cultural refereces. Hunting to hounds is a very small part of hunting even today, when we buy meat in the grocery store. Most hunting, even by nobles, was for food. Carol Mitchell Carol _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: trekona@erols.com Date: Fri, 05 Mar 99 13:46:46 GMT Subject: Re: H-COST: foams..reg vs. hard?? Hunh?? - -Poster: trekona@erols.com Kara- > OK, so the duct-tape over a tee shirt filled with foam, fiber-fill etc, > sounds a like a reasonable alternative for someone who doesn't want to > spend a lot of money right now, but what sort of stand do you put it on? > Is ther a cheap, easy alternative for someone who doesn't have access to a > wood shop? I had my friend's husband build a T-stand out of 2x4 for me, other people have put a heavy closet pole throught the arms with a hook in the neck so that it could be hung from the ceiling. > > Also, is the fiber-fill sturdy enough to take the weight of any dress at > all? or do you need to provide a more solid foundation for it? Well, there's a problem. Now we didn't make mine quite right apparently, only two or three layers of tape, which while they went in different directions weren't done in layered directions (one layer all vertical, the next all horizontal, etc). I built my Swedish outfit on my dress form, and a few problems: apparently after about 3 months with the boned bodice on, the center back "seam" split open and puckered. also the weight of the 4 skirts pulled the waist down. When I took the outfit off for a trial run in November, I also discovered that in many areas, the duct-tape had actually *slid* on the various layers and the underdress was stuck to the form! I've been told since then that these forms aren't terribly suited for corseting (still don't see why not, it's certainly squishable, but it did have problems), and for dealing with weight it's works better to put in some heavy carboard or something in various horizontal layers to support the skirts. > I've never owned a dress-form before, can't afford to buy one and never > thought of making one, but this thread is making me think about trying... After reading this marvelous thread (just what I've been needing!), I think I'm going to buy a Uniquely You next weekend at Joanne's when they go on sale. BTw, I was told it's $120 (unless my store is marking them up!) -Judy Mitchell _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Christopher Ballis" Date: Sat, 6 Mar 1999 00:42:03 +1100 Subject: Re: H-COST: Lots of info just posted to www.Costume-Con.org! - -Poster: "Christopher Ballis" > -Poster: Betsy Delaney > You'll also find the official vote count for Costume-Con 20. In case you > haven't figured it out by now, we're going to Australia in 2002! > Aww, I am already here. - -C. _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Betsy Delaney Date: Fri, 05 Mar 1999 09:09:16 -0500 Subject: Re: H-COST: Re: Foams...reg. vs hard?? Hunh? - -Poster: Betsy Delaney Thanks, Dietmar! That's just the kind of info I was looking for. I thought that's what the foam might be. For the record, I've got mine on top of one of those old-fashioned cardboard adjustables. Padding in between, I only needed a bag and a half of stuffing, and with the stand, it's adjustable. Best part of the original dummy: It was free (parked in front of our condominium dumpster one morning, in my unit the next). I like this cast iron base concept, though. Might have to look into it for making additional forms. Judy: The suggestion I heard for dealing with corsets and duct tape doubles involved corsetting *before* making the dummy, so that you were working on the form without the actual corset beneath. You could do multiple forms, one for each type of corset you own, or simply do a new one for each period when you're ready to work in it, in case your figure changes between costumes. Mine generally have two.5 layers before removal from me, and an additional layer after stuffing to smooth out any patches of tape that might have gone down funny. Oh, and a tip for anyone thinking about trying this out - I've made several, as I said before, but this is the first one where the cut up the back was done sawtooth, as opposed to a straight cut. I have to say that it worked like a dream for putting the back together again. (Saw-tooth = a vertical version of /\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\) The friend who helped me used the suggestions from the Leanna page URL I forwarded to the list, and used two t-shirts. Made the neckline work much easier, and also gave me enough at the bottom to tie off, for a cleaner, sturdier look. - -betsy Dietmar wrote: > > -Poster: Dietmar > > Greetings, > > Hope H. Dunlap wrote, > > > For about 8 dollars, you can buy an aerosol foam product in Home Depot. > > It's sold next to the styrofoam board insulation, and is for pfouffing > > into cracks to keep out the cold, rodents, fix mistakes, etc. > > > One to two cans would easily fill a duct tape double, although, it would > > be cheaper to pack in some scrap styrofoam first and then use the aerosol > > just for morter. It set up hard in a few hours. > > You may not be entirely satisfied with this foam product. Repeated contact > (such as pinning and repinning) will cause the foam to crumble into a very > fine yellow powder. It sets extremely hard and you have little control over > the amount of expansion, but I suppose it could be carved as necessary. > > Regards, > > Dietmar > > "Victory or Defeat rests in God's hands; > over Honor, we ourselves are Lord and Master." > > _________________________________________________________________ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME - -- Betsy R. Delaney Webmistress at large ************************************************************************ betsy@hawkeswood.com or betsy@ability.net http://www.hawkeswood.com/, home of Hawkeswood Designs and http://www.Costume-Con.org/, home of Costume-ConNections (If you still have betsy@access.digex.net, change my address *NOW*!) ************************************************************************ _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ End of h-costume-digest V4 #198 ******************************* _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME-DIGEST From ???@??? Mon Mar 08 13:11:30 1999 Received: from mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE (mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE [130.149.4.16]) by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA02598 for ; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 17:53:59 +0100 (MET) Received: from mail.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.15]) by mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10IxrJ-0004m7-00; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 17:53:57 +0100 Received: from coal.bg.tu-berlin.de by mail.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Fri, 5 Mar 1999 17:53:46 +0100 Received: from mail2.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.14]) by mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10Ixr2-0004lt-00; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 17:53:40 +0100 Received: from tubkom.prz.tu-berlin.de by mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Fri, 5 Mar 1999 17:53:32 +0100 Received: from mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE (mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE [130.149.4.16]) by tubkom.prz.tu-berlin.de (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA27788 for ; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 17:52:15 +0100 (MEZ) Received: from mail.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.15]) by mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10Ixqp-0004l9-01; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 17:53:27 +0100 Received: from server.indra.com by mail.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Fri, 5 Mar 1999 17:49:44 +0100 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.8.5/) with ESMTP id KAA21012; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 10:00:40 -0700 (MST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id JAA05481 for h-costume-digest-outgoing; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 09:45:31 -0700 (MST) Date: Fri, 5 Mar 1999 09:45:31 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199903051645.JAA05481@indra.com> From: owner-h-costume-digest@indra.com To: h-costume-digest@indra.com Subject: h-costume-digest V4 #199 Reply-To: h-costume-digest@indra.com Errors-To: owner-h-costume-digest@indra.com Precedence: bulk Status: O h-costume-digest Friday, 5 March 1999 Volume 04 : Number 199 In this issue: RE: H-COST: Re: Foams...reg. vs hard?? Hunh? RE: H-COST: Mimes RE: H-COST: Fisherman's sweaters Re: H-COST: SCA Garb list functioning? Re: H-COST: Fisherman's sweaters Re: H-COST: foams..reg vs. hard?? Hunh?? H-COST: What would you recommend?? Favorite books? H-COST: Costume Technicians Handbook??? H-COST: Italian museum? H-COST: figuring out elizabethan H-COST: Cross scarves, c. 1820-1850? Re: H-COST: What would you recommend?? Favorite books? Re: H-COST: figuring out elizabethan ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Hope H. Dunlap" Date: Fri, 5 Mar 1999 09:47:21 -0500 Subject: RE: H-COST: Re: Foams...reg. vs hard?? Hunh? - -Poster: "Hope H. Dunlap" I agree with Dietmar on this. If you use the foam as a quick expandable filler, it needs to be wrapped with thin batting and a cover so you can pin into it over any period of time. In the long term, it is too crumbly to be an effective top layer. It's merits are that it is fast and fun. Hope H. Dunlap - -----Original Message----- From: owner-h-costume@indra.com [mailto:owner-h-costume@indra.com]On Behalf Of Dietmar Sent: Thursday, March 04, 1999 9:51 AM To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: H-COST: Re: Foams...reg. vs hard?? Hunh? - -Poster: Dietmar Greetings, Hope H. Dunlap wrote, > For about 8 dollars, you can buy an aerosol foam product in Home Depot. > It's sold next to the styrofoam board insulation, and is for pfouffing > into cracks to keep out the cold, rodents, fix mistakes, etc. > One to two cans would easily fill a duct tape double, although, it would > be cheaper to pack in some scrap styrofoam first and then use the aerosol > just for morter. It set up hard in a few hours. You may not be entirely satisfied with this foam product. Repeated contact (such as pinning and repinning) will cause the foam to crumble into a very fine yellow powder. It sets extremely hard and you have little control over the amount of expansion, but I suppose it could be carved as necessary. Regards, Dietmar "Victory or Defeat rests in God's hands; over Honor, we ourselves are Lord and Master." ____________________________________________________________ _____ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Hope H. Dunlap" Date: Fri, 5 Mar 1999 09:54:21 -0500 Subject: RE: H-COST: Mimes - -Poster: "Hope H. Dunlap" There are ****wonderful***** period engravings in art collections up on the Web of Italian circus performers in the early Rennaissance, late Middle Ages. They travelled all over Europe, and the costumes are wild. Devils with horns and incredibly long noses. Clowns in harlequin (patches) costume. I don't know who did the miming, maybe all of them. These little troupes were an established Italian art form by then, and I bet they date way back. Try San Francisco Art Museum site, the Australian prints and engravings site, or just type "Italian circus engravings" into http://www.metacrawler.com to try to find them. Hope H. Dunlap - -----Original Message----- From: owner-h-costume@indra.com [mailto:owner-h-costume@indra.com]On Behalf Of Susan Carroll-Clark Sent: Wednesday, March 03, 1999 10:05 AM To: h-costume-digest@indra.com Subject: H-COST: Mimes - -Poster: "Susan Carroll-Clark" Greetings! >I have absolutely no clue -- this isn't my period. Could someone please >offer me some advice as to what a mime would wear, if there's something >particular to mimes? I have a catalog book of some Past Patterns if you >can use any of them as examples. Mimes did exist in the Middle Ages, but I've not seen evidence of special clothing specific to just them. The black suit and white gloves thing is something popularized this century by the famous mime Marcel Marceau. What would identify someone as a mime in the Middle Ages wouldn't be the clothes, but rather the fact that he or she was doing mime. You might go with motley, which was what some street performers started wearing by the fourteenth century or so ("motley" just means "patchwork"--a costume made out of many different types of fabric, in bright colours.) I imagine a loose shirt belted at the waist and a pair of breeches or tights would work. Susan Carroll-Clark ____________________________________________________________ _____ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Hope H. Dunlap" Date: Fri, 5 Mar 1999 09:57:59 -0500 Subject: RE: H-COST: Fisherman's sweaters - -Poster: "Hope H. Dunlap" This sounds like the genetics teachers who say that fish developed wings *in order to* fly. Perhaps the species did over a huge time period develop wings which *allowed* them to fly, but that is different. So there may be a kernel of important truth in there, but the way it is often expressed is a definitely screwy. There's no doubt in my mind that the variety of patterns in fishermen's sweaters were used to identify the drowned. The sweaters must have been like a fingerprint, each individually created. But to say that the patterns were put there *in order to* identify the drowned, really is a stretch for me. However, there is a kernel of truth which seems apparent in this, and that is that the fishermans sweaters were a local art form with a lot of variety in the patterns. Those old books are highly useful in my opinion, but only in conjunction with other sources to help you weed out the often strange interpretations applied over the basic facts. I tend to think that being 100 or 200 years closer to the actual facts, that the old authors had a wealth of information no longer available to present day scholars. But of course, people err, both in facts and interpretations, and today scholars are much more aware of the human tendency to overlay a find with their own present day values, and it helps them towards improved objectivity......maybe. Keeping in mind that I know little to nothing about the history of fisherman's sweaters.....thanks for all the posts on this, I do find it very interesting. Hope H. Dunlap - -----Original Message----- From: owner-h-costume@indra.com [mailto:owner-h-costume@indra.com]On Behalf Of Lynn Carpenter Sent: Thursday, March 04, 1999 6:33 AM To: h-costume-digest@indra.com Subject: H-COST: Fisherman's sweaters - -Poster: Lynn Carpenter 'The Sacred History of Knitting', by Heinze Kiewe, claims fisherman's sweaters were knitted to different patterns so drowned fishermen could be identified by their sweaters. Unfortunately, his book is one of those "suspect" references. A review of this book is available at: http://devbio-mac1.ucsf.edu/knit/reviewsP.html Lynn ____________________________________________________________ _____ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Hope Greenberg Date: Fri, 5 Mar 1999 08:03:27 -0700 (MST) Subject: Re: H-COST: SCA Garb list functioning? - -Poster: Hope Greenberg lilinah@grin.net wrote: > A while back folks were talking about the SCA garb list, but it seemed to > be having some problems. Then i noticed a fleeting mention to the garb list in a > recent post. So i gather it is functioning. > Could someone please send me info how how to subscribe? The sca-garb list is alive and well and has just completed a move to the University of Vermont. The new home offers digests and archives. To subscribe, send an e-mail message to: listserv@list.uvm.edu The entire message should read: sub sca-garb Your (Human!) Name Thus, if your name is Bill Clinton, you would send: sub sca-garb Bill Clinton If you'd like to visit the archives which began with the list's move, see: http://list.uvm.edu/archives/sca-garb.html - - Hope - ------------ hope.greenberg@uvm.edu, U of Vermont, http://www.uvm.edu/~hag _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Linda Yordy" Date: Fri, 5 Mar 1999 08:21:09 -0700 (MST) Subject: Re: H-COST: Fisherman's sweaters - -Poster: "Linda Yordy" > 1. A lady there was telling the kids that fisherman's sweaters are > period . . . I'm just skeptical that fisherman's > sweaters as we know them today existed back before 1600. What comes to my mind when you say fisherman's sweaters are those bulky sweaters with the complicated cable stitches. I've done a little research on knitting. My guess is they're not period. Most of the knitting that has survived includes examples which only include the knit and purl stitches -- no cable stitches. One author which I read (Kiewe, Heinz Edgar --The Sacred History of Knitting) suggested that the Irish knitted very intricate patterns which could have been interpretted as cable stitches. Another author, Richard Rutt -- A History of Hand Knitting, who is considered one of the gurus of knitting, says that Kiewe was dreaming (well not in those words, but you know what I mean). I can't remember seeing any cable stitches prior to 1600 in Rutt's documentation. He charts out several patterns from extant articles which include variations on the knit and purl, but that's it. If by fisherman sweater, she meant just a sweater, they can be documented to late period. They were more of a knitted shirt than a sweater. Not the bulky type knit we think of, but very small guage (22-30 stitches per inch!), usually made of silk, and usually made for the upper class. >along the lines of patterns >being different from person to person as some form of >identification Yes, I'd heard that too. Legend is that people could identify drowned fishermen by the patterns in their sweaters. The patterns ran in families, much the way the Scottish tartans did. However, I've never heard a date associated with when they began knitting these patterns. Linda Yordy Phone: 208/426-4034 Boise State University Center for Management Development 1910 University Drive Boise, ID 83725-1660 ******************************************************** Yordy's Law #3: When wearing white, apply your lunch directly to your shirt -- it will end up there anyway. _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Michel McCabe Date: Fri, 05 Mar 1999 10:31:18 -0500 Subject: Re: H-COST: foams..reg vs. hard?? Hunh?? - -Poster: Michel McCabe > After reading this marvelous thread (just what I've been needing!), I think >I'm going to buy a Uniquely You next weekend at Joanne's when they go on sale. >BTw, I was told it's $120 (unless my store is marking them up!) > I spend some time yesterday in a Joanne's, studying both the Dial unit and the Uniquely you. Because I had been thinking about the weight issue (thanks for the duct tape thoughts) I took a belt and hung a back pack on the uniquely you. My walking around back pack and a heavy purse (which is really my camera bag with extra batteries and all that good stuff. Almost immediately the foam of the foam began to compress and the belt was pulled down - started to slip down over the hips. Next I put the belt thru the loops n my jacket to see what the weight would do to the shoulder and they also began sloping. Now I admit this was not a fair test since the weight was pretty concentrated - but if your costume pulled the duct tape - I wonder if the foam of the uniquely you can support it properly either. Just thinking out loud or maybe I am justifying the additional cost of the Fabulous Fit I hope to see one next week will let you all know how it perform in a similar experiment. _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "DEAN QUACKENBUSH" Date: Fri, 5 Mar 1999 08:34:18 -0700 (MST) Subject: H-COST: What would you recommend?? Favorite books? - -Poster: "DEAN QUACKENBUSH" >Sorry if this is a repeat - I never saw it show up on the list. > > >I am relatively new to this historic costume stuff. I own several of Janet >Arnold's books - I am not sure how to refer to them - several of the series >which cover the periods of 16th through 19th century (too excited to go >look).?? My husband, as a Valentine's Day gift, offered to buy me any >costume book I choose! What shall I buy? I have been researching the >Elizabeth's Wardrobe Unlocked, but am interested in what you all might >choose. My dates of interest are the 14th through the 17th >centuries-England and the Continent. If you think the rest of the list >might be bored by this, feel free to respond to me offline. Thanks so much >for your opinion. > > >Saragrace > > _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "B. Jean Palmer" <194@ef.gc.maricopa.edu> Date: Fri, 5 Mar 1999 08:35:19 -0700 (MST) Subject: H-COST: Costume Technicians Handbook??? - -Poster: "B. Jean Palmer" <194@ef.gc.maricopa.edu> ???Where can one obtain a copy of the Costume Technicians Handbook??? Sounds great. -Peridot- Jean Palmer 194@ef.gc.maricopa.edu Cactus Needles Costumer _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: DC Date: Fri, 5 Mar 1999 08:35:53 -0700 (MST) Subject: H-COST: Italian museum? - -Poster: DC By now we all know about the V&A museum for English costume, is there a similar place in Italy for period Italian garb study? Many thanks Brigantia _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Gia Gavino-Gattshall" Date: Fri, 5 Mar 1999 08:39:33 -0700 (MST) Subject: H-COST: figuring out elizabethan - -Poster: "Gia Gavino-Gattshall" Greetings, list! I'm going to be taking the plunge soon and start working on elizabethans = for myself. I've done a couple of elizabethans for my littlest, to = 'practice' cartridge pleating and sewing techniques stuff. =20 What's happening now, is I'm trying to get my documentation together = (*before* I even cut out my muslins!) for the cut and assembly of the = elizabethan and I'm *really* getting confused about some of the stuff = I've dug up! I've been starting with reviewing Janet Arnold's "Pattern's of = Fashion,... c1560-1620" and Juan de Alcega's "Tailor's Pattern Book = 1589". I'm confused by the use of the term Janet uses: "gown". To me the term = 'gown' infers that the skirt and bodice are joined, which I guess is a = modern interpretation. All I've 'heard' of, and instructed to do, is = for the bodice and skirts to be separate, not joined at the waist seam = at all. I looked at Drea's *wonderful* web page; there's alot of = information there! But (unless I was looking in the wrong place) I = didn't see the answer to my specific questions there. =20 A friend told me that the use of the term 'gown' by Janet was to convey = the 'outfit in entirety' (pair of bodies, overskirt, petticoat), and not = the modern interpretation of joined at the waist seam. To further confuse me, Janet does give great details for doublets, = foreparts, petticoats (skirts), 'pair of bodies', farthingales, corsets = and all the pictures of construction, tabs, and boning. In her = schematics, she seems to include all the little details of the 'outer = shell' of the extant garments, but I don't seem to see any waistbands = for the skirts. Is it because it's presumed that the reader would know? = =20 I'll list only a *few* specifics from each of the books, where the = confusion starts: Page 40 caption for picture 286 "Back of Eleanora of Toledo's satin = bodice from the gown in which she was buried (pages 102-4), Beneath it = are fragments of her red velvet bodice or 'pair of bodies' which = fastened at the front with hooks and eyes. Palazzo Pitti, Florence" Page 42, picture & caption 297 "Velvet gown on pages 105-6 worn by = Grafin Katharina zur Lippe when she was buried, aged six, in 1600, = Lippisches Landesmuseumm, Detmold." Page 47, picture & caption 334 " Rich russet velvet gown worn by = Pfalzgrafin Dorothea Sabina von Neuberg, with a petticoat of soft green = silk (pages 113-14), 1598. Bayerisches Nationalmuseum, Munich." Page 48 Pictures & captions from 340 & 341 340: "Cut and uncut patterned velvet gown on pages 115 - 16 worn by = Pfalzgrafin Dorothea Maria von Sulzbach. The deep shoulder wings are = trimmed with wilk braid. The cut is similare to gowns in the Spanish = tailor's books (fig 36)..." 341: It's actually the picture in this case that is causing confusion. = The caption is about the silk braid, but when I look at the picture, it = looks like the skirt and bodice are sewn together at the seam. Does = anyone have a better picture? =20 In Juan's book, in the "Main Notes", # 33 : " Manteo, a semi-circular = intermediate skirt, also called a Faldlin. It had a waist-band and was = sometimes reversible, oopen in front or worn inside out (de vuelta). It = wa worn over the basic undergarment, the shift, and under the outer = skirt (vasquina), kirtle, or saya, petticoat or skirt with bodice. = (Bernis, 1962, pp. 96, 107) On page 47, f.63, the caption for the pattern lay out is: "Skirt and = bodice of cloth with puffed sleeves." Same page, f.63a & 64, the captions read, " Skirt [with bodice] of cloth = for a woman." I noticed in the layouts he doesn't show the layouts for the small stuff = like the tabs, armsceyes wings and he doesn't specify them either, = generally saying trims are cut out of the cabbage. Again, does he = presume then that the user of his patterns would know that the skirt = would go on a waistband? These books seems to support my thoughts that the bodice and the skirt = are *sometimes* joined, but don't want to jump to conclusions. So I = thought I'd put my questions before the collective knowledge of this = list. =20 I'll keep looking for other sources and review the inventory in QEWU and = see what I find there, too. Thank you! Gia/Giacinta costuming nut, researchaholic _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: agottfre@telusplanet.net (Angela Gottfred) Date: Fri, 5 Mar 1999 09:06:56 -0700 Subject: H-COST: Cross scarves, c. 1820-1850? - -Poster: agottfre@telusplanet.net (Angela Gottfred) >> the documented use of scarves tied tightly across the breast, combined with a tight bodice<< Where could I find more documentation on cross scarves? My research focusses on the Canadian fur trade, 1774-1821, and there is a c.1822 painting by Peter Rindisbacher, called "Indian Women in Tent", which has puzzled me. In the painting, two white triangles come out of either side of the very low 'u' neckline on her short gown, and join in a circle (knot?) in the centre of her cleavage. Is this how cross scarves would or could be tied? It certainly doesn't look at all like a fichu. Your humble & obedient servant, Angela Gottfred agottfre@telusplanet.net _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Merouda of Bornover Date: Fri, 05 Mar 1999 08:36:48 -0800 Subject: Re: H-COST: What would you recommend?? Favorite books? - -Poster: Merouda of Bornover > >look).?? My husband, as a Valentine's Day gift, offered to buy me any > >costume book I choose! What shall I buy? I have been researching the > >Elizabeth's Wardrobe Unlocked, Since it's the most expensive and the best for Elizabethan, that's the one I would pick. *envy* TI sounds like you're starting off on the right foot. Cynthia - -- Cynthia Long Merouda of Bornover Barony of Madrone Kingdom of An Tir _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Merouda of Bornover Date: Fri, 05 Mar 1999 08:44:46 -0800 Subject: Re: H-COST: figuring out elizabethan - -Poster: Merouda of Bornover I have printed this post off and will have it when you visit. I am of the opinion that what words the writer's used are of no use when it comes to what they call things. In the end, the words don't matter, the cut and fit does. So, let's look at all the pictures and see if we can't figure out those pesky waistbands. While I was at Countess Elisabeth's we looked at this a bit, and, well, she believes that if the bodice is not tabbed it is attached to the skirt. If the bodice *is* tabbed, the tabs are there to cover the gap. ~M Gia Gavino-Gattshall wrote: > -Poster: "Gia Gavino-Gattshall" > > Greetings, list! > > I'm going to be taking the plunge soon and start working on elizabethans = > for myself. I've done a couple of elizabethans for my littlest, to = > 'practice' cartridge pleating and sewing techniques stuff. =20 > > What's happening now, is I'm trying to get my documentation together = > (*before* I even cut out my muslins!) for the cut and assembly of the = > elizabethan and I'm *really* getting confused about some of the stuff = > I've dug up! > > I've been starting with reviewing Janet Arnold's "Pattern's of = > Fashion,... c1560-1620" and Juan de Alcega's "Tailor's Pattern Book = > 1589". > > I'm confused by the use of the term Janet uses: "gown". To me the term = > 'gown' infers that the skirt and bodice are joined, which I guess is a = > modern interpretation. All I've 'heard' of, and instructed to do, is = > for the bodice and skirts to be separate, not joined at the waist seam = > at all. I looked at Drea's *wonderful* web page; there's alot of = > information there! But (unless I was looking in the wrong place) I = > didn't see the answer to my specific questions there. =20 > > A friend told me that the use of the term 'gown' by Janet was to convey = > the 'outfit in entirety' (pair of bodies, overskirt, petticoat), and not = > the modern interpretation of joined at the waist seam. > > To further confuse me, Janet does give great details for doublets, = > foreparts, petticoats (skirts), 'pair of bodies', farthingales, corsets = > and all the pictures of construction, tabs, and boning. In her = > schematics, she seems to include all the little details of the 'outer = > shell' of the extant garments, but I don't seem to see any waistbands = > for the skirts. Is it because it's presumed that the reader would know? = > =20 > > I'll list only a *few* specifics from each of the books, where the = > confusion starts: > > Page 40 caption for picture 286 "Back of Eleanora of Toledo's satin = > bodice from the gown in which she was buried (pages 102-4), Beneath it = > are fragments of her red velvet bodice or 'pair of bodies' which = > fastened at the front with hooks and eyes. Palazzo Pitti, Florence" > > Page 42, picture & caption 297 "Velvet gown on pages 105-6 worn by = > Grafin Katharina zur Lippe when she was buried, aged six, in 1600, = > Lippisches Landesmuseumm, Detmold." > > Page 47, picture & caption 334 " Rich russet velvet gown worn by = > Pfalzgrafin Dorothea Sabina von Neuberg, with a petticoat of soft green = > silk (pages 113-14), 1598. Bayerisches Nationalmuseum, Munich." > > Page 48 Pictures & captions from 340 & 341 > > 340: "Cut and uncut patterned velvet gown on pages 115 - 16 worn by = > Pfalzgrafin Dorothea Maria von Sulzbach. The deep shoulder wings are = > trimmed with wilk braid. The cut is similare to gowns in the Spanish = > tailor's books (fig 36)..." > > 341: It's actually the picture in this case that is causing confusion. = > The caption is about the silk braid, but when I look at the picture, it = > looks like the skirt and bodice are sewn together at the seam. Does = > anyone have a better picture? =20 > > In Juan's book, in the "Main Notes", # 33 : " Manteo, a semi-circular = > intermediate skirt, also called a Faldlin. It had a waist-band and was = > sometimes reversible, oopen in front or worn inside out (de vuelta). It = > wa worn over the basic undergarment, the shift, and under the outer = > skirt (vasquina), kirtle, or saya, petticoat or skirt with bodice. = > (Bernis, 1962, pp. 96, 107) > > On page 47, f.63, the caption for the pattern lay out is: "Skirt and = > bodice of cloth with puffed sleeves." > > Same page, f.63a & 64, the captions read, " Skirt [with bodice] of cloth = > for a woman." > > I noticed in the layouts he doesn't show the layouts for the small stuff = > like the tabs, armsceyes wings and he doesn't specify them either, = > generally saying trims are cut out of the cabbage. Again, does he = > presume then that the user of his patterns would know that the skirt = > would go on a waistband? > > These books seems to support my thoughts that the bodice and the skirt = > are *sometimes* joined, but don't want to jump to conclusions. So I = > thought I'd put my questions before the collective knowledge of this = > list. =20 > > I'll keep looking for other sources and review the inventory in QEWU and = > see what I find there, too. > > Thank you! > Gia/Giacinta > costuming nut, researchaholic > _________________________________________________________________ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME - -- Cynthia Long Merouda of Bornover Barony of Madrone Kingdom of An Tir _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ End of h-costume-digest V4 #199 ******************************* _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME-DIGEST From ???@??? Mon Mar 08 13:11:31 1999 Received: from mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE (mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE [130.149.4.16]) by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA04805 for ; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 22:54:17 +0100 (MET) Received: from mail.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.15]) by mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10J2Xw-0004KN-00; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 22:54:16 +0100 Received: from coal.bg.tu-berlin.de by mail.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Fri, 5 Mar 1999 22:54:05 +0100 Received: from mail.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.15]) by mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10J2Xi-0004KA-00; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 22:54:02 +0100 Received: from tubkom.prz.tu-berlin.de by mail.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Fri, 5 Mar 1999 22:53:49 +0100 Received: from mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE (mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE [130.149.4.16]) by tubkom.prz.tu-berlin.de (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA29546 for ; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 22:52:32 +0100 (MEZ) Received: from mail.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.15]) by mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10J2XR-0004Jg-01; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 22:53:45 +0100 Received: from server.indra.com by mail.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Fri, 5 Mar 1999 22:53:23 +0100 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.8.5/) with ESMTP id PAA21075; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 15:06:54 -0700 (MST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id OAA01121 for h-costume-digest-outgoing; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 14:51:50 -0700 (MST) Date: Fri, 5 Mar 1999 14:51:50 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199903052151.OAA01121@indra.com> From: owner-h-costume-digest@indra.com To: h-costume-digest@indra.com Subject: h-costume-digest V4 #200 Reply-To: h-costume-digest@indra.com Errors-To: owner-h-costume-digest@indra.com Precedence: bulk Status: O h-costume-digest Friday, 5 March 1999 Volume 04 : Number 200 In this issue: Re: H-COST: figuring out elizabethan Re: H-COST: Fabric sources in Austin and NYC RE: H-COST: What is it? Re: H-COST: Cross scarves, c. 1820-1850? Re: H-COST: Italian museum? H-COST: historical costume collections in Italy Re: H-COST: figuring out elizabethan Re: H-COST: Costume Technicians Handbook??? Re: H-COST: sidesaddle Re: H-COST: sidesaddle Re: H-COST: sidesaddle Re: H-COST: Hair styles ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Merouda of Bornover Date: Fri, 05 Mar 1999 08:58:45 -0800 Subject: Re: H-COST: figuring out elizabethan - -Poster: Merouda of Bornover I write to Gia all the time. Forgot this was the list. Please ignore those comments for those of you who are familiar with the people I mentioned. I would hate for any possible misquotes to be attributed to them. C > I have printed this post off and will have it when you visit. - -- Cynthia Long Merouda of Bornover Barony of Madrone Kingdom of An Tir _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Jessica Wilbur" Date: Fri, 5 Mar 1999 12:46:40 -0500 Subject: Re: H-COST: Fabric sources in Austin and NYC - -Poster: "Jessica Wilbur" Hmm... my sister is contemplating a move to Austin. I think I will have to go visit her! Often! - --Jessica > > I live in Austin... Feel free to give her my email addy. > (magdlena@texas.net) She needs to hit Silk Road, London Fabrics, and > Scotland Yards, with possiblities towards Hancock Fabrics and JoAnne. > The first three are all readily accessible by bus, as are most of the H & > Js. Depending on when she is here and wants to shop, I might be able to > play friendly native tour guide and chauffeur. Silk Road is _the_ place > she must see. > > -Magdalena > > _________________________________________________________________ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME > _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Jane Paunicka Date: Fri, 5 Mar 1999 13:03:10 -0500 Subject: RE: H-COST: What is it? - -Poster: Jane Paunicka Just wanted to share the information I finally found on the turkey back. It is from the 1860's, a short coat which hung straight in front and flared out in the back from the neck. Thanks for your input!..jp >-Poster: "Hope H. Dunlap" > >in the 1400's 1500's 1600's and 1700's and maybe earlier, I >don't know, but "turkey" and "a la turque" showed up in a >lot of clothing descriptors because of the interest in >exotic (and comfortable) Turkish styles. Now, Cunnington >has a picture of a "turkey hat," and I've seen somewhere >reference to a "turkey robe," but not a "turkey back." >Turkey shoes, slippers, and rugs were imported to Europe >during this period. Do you think this might be the right >track though? Can you give up a little more of the context >in which you found the terminology? > >Hope H. Dunlap > > >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-h-costume@indra.com >[mailto:owner-h-costume@indra.com]On >Behalf Of Jane Paunicka >Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 1999 8:16 PM >To: h-costume@indra.com >Subject: H-COST: What is it? > > > >-Poster: Jane Paunicka > >I need to find out what a "turkey back" is relating to >costumes. Can >anyone help me out with this term? >Thanks, >Jane > >Jane K. Paunicka >Costume Shop Supervisor >114 Washington Hall >Department of Communication and Theatre >University of Notre Dame >Notre Dame, IN 46556 >(219)631-0633 > > > >____________________________________________________________ >_____ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to >majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME > > > _________________________________________________________________ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME Jane K. Paunicka Costume Shop Supervisor 114 Washington Hall Department of Communication and Theatre University of Notre Dame Notre Dame, IN 46556 (219)631-0633 _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Date: Fri, 5 Mar 99 14:02:57 -0500 Subject: Re: H-COST: Cross scarves, c. 1820-1850? - -Poster: Angela wrote, >Where could I find more documentation on cross scarves? My research focusses >on the Canadian fur trade, 1774-1821,... In the late 18thC, a little after the American Revolution, I see larger kerchiefs worn. One style is to start with the point in back (as usual), cross the ends in front, and tie them in the back just above the waist. Illustrations I've seen have been with the fashionable figure (wearing stays). I haven't tried this myself, but I wonder if crossing the kerchief & tying it in back would give some support without stays? -Carol Kocian _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Date: Fri, 5 Mar 99 14:15:37 -0500 Subject: Re: H-COST: Italian museum? - -Poster: >By now we all know about the V&A museum for English costume, is there a >similar place in Italy for period Italian garb study? How about the Pitti Palace in Florence? I went to Italy a year ago and am disappionted that I didn't know about its costume collection at the time. D'oh! -Carol Kocian _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Carole Frick Date: Fri, 05 Mar 1999 13:16:23 -0600 Subject: H-COST: historical costume collections in Italy - -Poster: Carole Frick There is a nice little collection of Italian historical costumes in the Palazzo Pitti in Florence, which includes gowns, gloves, shoes, hats from the mid-17th c. up to the 20th displayed on mannequins. Also, there is a textile museum in the town of Prato (center of the medieval wool trade) about 10 miles outside of Florence, easily accessible on a city bus. Also, on or near Via Tornabuoni in the historic center of Florence there is an extant old silk manufactory which has its beginnings in the 15th-c. with the "setaiuoli," or Renaissance silk merchants. I have more info at home which I will find and share when I leave campus. Best, Carole Collier Frick, Ph.D. Department of Historical Studies Southern Illinois University _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Marsha McLean Date: Fri, 5 Mar 1999 14:30:41 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: H-COST: figuring out elizabethan - -Poster: Marsha McLean Hi! I'm new to the list, and Merouda's inquiry is in my field, so I couldn't resist. I have been trying for years and years to conclusively document waistbands and have failed. All I have found arethe vsgue references in Alcega. I have experimented amd tested and concluded that the "waistbands" Alcega refers to are some sort of binding. now what we moderns call waistbands. Everytime I try a seperate (two distinct pieces) bodice, I get nasty gaposis. I find that for the right look and hang I need to attach the two. Also, when I sew the bodice and skirt together I rarely need to bone my bodice, the weight of the skirt makes it hang right. The confusing references to bodice and skirt being seperate refer, I believe, to the new practice of CUTTING them seperately. FYI: I find that the following layering works well, and according to my research, is most authentic (I've worn these in all weather and find them quite comfortable): shift - long and close fitting, see "Cut My Cote" corset and farthingale/s (if combining a Spanish and a small French <"bumroll">) shirt or smock, and petticoats Kirtle- this is the layer with the laceon sleeves, the part that we see if the gown skirt is open at the center front (or sometimes there is a forepart attached over a plain kirtle) Gown, if worn. I've seen references to kirtles being worn on their own. Lotsa Luck! Marsha/Madinia At 08:44 AM 3/5/99 -0800, you wrote: > >-Poster: Merouda of Bornover > >I have printed this post off and will have it when you visit. I am of the >opinion that what words the writer's used are of no use when it comes to what >they call things. In the end, the words don't matter, the cut and fit does. >So, let's look at all the pictures and see if we can't figure out those pesky >waistbands. While I was at Countess Elisabeth's we looked at this a bit, and, >well, she believes that if the bodice is not tabbed it is attached to the >skirt. If the bodice *is* tabbed, the tabs are there to cover the gap. > >~M > >Gia Gavino-Gattshall wrote: > >> -Poster: "Gia Gavino-Gattshall" >> >> Greetings, list! >> >> I'm going to be taking the plunge soon and start working on elizabethans = >> for myself. I've done a couple of elizabethans for my littlest, to = >> 'practice' cartridge pleating and sewing techniques stuff. =20 >> >> What's happening now, is I'm trying to get my documentation together = >> (*before* I even cut out my muslins!) for the cut and assembly of the = >> elizabethan and I'm *really* getting confused about some of the stuff = >> I've dug up! >> >> I've been starting with reviewing Janet Arnold's "Pattern's of = >> Fashion,... c1560-1620" and Juan de Alcega's "Tailor's Pattern Book = >> 1589". >> >> I'm confused by the use of the term Janet uses: "gown". To me the term = >> 'gown' infers that the skirt and bodice are joined, which I guess is a = >> modern interpretation. All I've 'heard' of, and instructed to do, is = >> for the bodice and skirts to be separate, not joined at the waist seam = >> at all. I looked at Drea's *wonderful* web page; there's alot of = >> information there! But (unless I was looking in the wrong place) I = >> didn't see the answer to my specific questions there. =20 >> >> A friend told me that the use of the term 'gown' by Janet was to convey = >> the 'outfit in entirety' (pair of bodies, overskirt, petticoat), and not = >> the modern interpretation of joined at the waist seam. >> >> To further confuse me, Janet does give great details for doublets, = >> foreparts, petticoats (skirts), 'pair of bodies', farthingales, corsets = >> and all the pictures of construction, tabs, and boning. In her = >> schematics, she seems to include all the little details of the 'outer = >> shell' of the extant garments, but I don't seem to see any waistbands = >> for the skirts. Is it because it's presumed that the reader would know? = >> =20 >> >> I'll list only a *few* specifics from each of the books, where the = >> confusion starts: >> >> Page 40 caption for picture 286 "Back of Eleanora of Toledo's satin = >> bodice from the gown in which she was buried (pages 102-4), Beneath it = >> are fragments of her red velvet bodice or 'pair of bodies' which = >> fastened at the front with hooks and eyes. Palazzo Pitti, Florence" >> >> Page 42, picture & caption 297 "Velvet gown on pages 105-6 worn by = >> Grafin Katharina zur Lippe when she was buried, aged six, in 1600, = >> Lippisches Landesmuseumm, Detmold." >> >> Page 47, picture & caption 334 " Rich russet velvet gown worn by = >> Pfalzgrafin Dorothea Sabina von Neuberg, with a petticoat of soft green = >> silk (pages 113-14), 1598. Bayerisches Nationalmuseum, Munich." >> >> Page 48 Pictures & captions from 340 & 341 >> >> 340: "Cut and uncut patterned velvet gown on pages 115 - 16 worn by = >> Pfalzgrafin Dorothea Maria von Sulzbach. The deep shoulder wings are = >> trimmed with wilk braid. The cut is similare to gowns in the Spanish = >> tailor's books (fig 36)..." >> >> 341: It's actually the picture in this case that is causing confusion. = >> The caption is about the silk braid, but when I look at the picture, it = >> looks like the skirt and bodice are sewn together at the seam. Does = >> anyone have a better picture? =20 >> >> In Juan's book, in the "Main Notes", # 33 : " Manteo, a semi-circular = >> intermediate skirt, also called a Faldlin. It had a waist-band and was = >> sometimes reversible, oopen in front or worn inside out (de vuelta). It = >> wa worn over the basic undergarment, the shift, and under the outer = >> skirt (vasquina), kirtle, or saya, petticoat or skirt with bodice. = >> (Bernis, 1962, pp. 96, 107) >> >> On page 47, f.63, the caption for the pattern lay out is: "Skirt and = >> bodice of cloth with puffed sleeves." >> >> Same page, f.63a & 64, the captions read, " Skirt [with bodice] of cloth = >> for a woman." >> >> I noticed in the layouts he doesn't show the layouts for the small stuff = >> like the tabs, armsceyes wings and he doesn't specify them either, = >> generally saying trims are cut out of the cabbage. Again, does he = >> presume then that the user of his patterns would know that the skirt = >> would go on a waistband? >> >> These books seems to support my thoughts that the bodice and the skirt = >> are *sometimes* joined, but don't want to jump to conclusions. So I = >> thought I'd put my questions before the collective knowledge of this = >> list. =20 >> >> I'll keep looking for other sources and review the inventory in QEWU and = >> see what I find there, too. >> >> Thank you! >> Gia/Giacinta >> costuming nut, researchaholic >> _________________________________________________________________ >> To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com >> with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME > > > >-- >Cynthia Long >Merouda of Bornover >Barony of Madrone >Kingdom of An Tir > > > _________________________________________________________________ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME > > _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Janice Dallas Date: Fri, 05 Mar 1999 14:24:48 -0500 Subject: Re: H-COST: Costume Technicians Handbook??? - -Poster: Janice Dallas Jean, To find the Costume Technician's Handbook, I'd try AlterYears in Pasadena. Phone is 818-585-2994, Tues. - Fri. 10am - 5:30pm. They have a wonderful selection of books on costume/costuming. A lot of their business is by catalog. Janice Dallas _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: seamstrix@juno.com Date: Fri, 5 Mar 1999 13:42:35 -0600 Subject: Re: H-COST: sidesaddle - -Poster: seamstrix@juno.com On Fri, 05 Mar 1999 02:30:32 -0800 Heather Law writes: >Hunting to hounds is a very small part of hunting even >today, when we buy meat in the grocery store. Most hunting, even by nobles, >was for food. >Carol Mitchell Well, yes and no. It all depends on who was hunting and why they were hunting. I know that Elizabeth would often stand on a platform and 'beaters' would go out into the woods and scare animals towards her so that she could shoot them. Not terribly sporting by our standards, but a more effective way to be sure that Great Bess had a good hunt. You can see depictions of this in "The Nobile Arte of Venerie", platform and all. In the country, I'm sure that most of what the nobility hunted and killed was eaten. But at court, I think that hunting was more of a recreation, right along with bear-baiting, bull-baiting, and cockfighting. Our ancestors had a much less warm/fuzzy feeling about animals than we do. Karen _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Sue Shatto Date: Fri, 05 Mar 1999 16:11:57 -0500 Subject: Re: H-COST: sidesaddle - -Poster: Sue Shatto In case anyone is interested, I have a white linen Edwardian skirt made for riding side saddle. it is very interesting. If someone is interested in acquiring it, I will photograph it for you. Alden from DAR was kind enough to help me identify it. She sent some poloroids with someone using it. Cordially, Sue Shatto Sue@VictorianMillinery.com http://www.VictorianMillinery.com _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Lisa R." Date: Fri, 05 Mar 1999 16:01:11 -0500 Subject: Re: H-COST: sidesaddle - -Poster: "Lisa R." Re: Riding to hounds-I know in my area of N.J. it is mercifully illegal to kill foxes in the traditional fox hunt so now they have what is called a "drag hunt," which is basically a mock hunt where a rider goes out over the territory a day or two beforehand dragging a trail of fox scent for the hounds to follow later. Then on the day of the hunt, the hounds & riders follow the trail which doesn't actually lead to anything, but is still just as fun. This is just in my area, I don't know how it is in other parts of the U.S. Incidentally, I haven't gone out drag hunting in 15 years, but I remember there was a woman there who used to ride to hounds sidesaddle. Lisa seamstrix@juno.com wrote: > -Poster: seamstrix@juno.com > > On Fri, 05 Mar 1999 02:30:32 -0800 Heather Law writes: > >Hunting to hounds is a very small part of hunting even > >today, when we buy meat in the grocery store. Most hunting, even by > nobles, > >was for food. > >Carol Mitchell > > Well, yes and no. It all depends on who was hunting and why they were > hunting. I know that Elizabeth would often stand on a platform and > 'beaters' would go out into the woods and scare animals towards her so > that she could shoot them. Not terribly sporting by our standards, but a > more effective way to be sure that Great Bess had a good hunt. You can > see depictions of this in "The Nobile Arte of Venerie", platform and all. > In the country, I'm sure that most of what the nobility hunted and > killed was eaten. But at court, I think that hunting was more of a > recreation, right along with bear-baiting, bull-baiting, and > cockfighting. Our ancestors had a much less warm/fuzzy feeling about > animals than we do. > > Karen > _________________________________________________________________ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Jean Waddie Date: Fri, 5 Mar 1999 21:08:58 +0000 Subject: Re: H-COST: Hair styles - -Poster: Jean Waddie Sorry, this is a very late reply cos I haven't read my mail for ages. Obviously hairstyles depend on your period, but one of my favourites is=20 a fourteenth century style - the one that frames the face with braids. =20 Put your hair in a standard two plaits at the back, like schoolgirl=20 pigtails. bring it in front of your ears and up to fix it at the centre=20 front of your head, leaving enough slack that it hangs to a fairly sharp=20 corner in front of your ears. You can wear this style on its own, with=20 a circlet or garland, with a wimple only, or with a short semi-circular=20 veil (straight edge over the top of your head, behind the plait. This=20 version can be pinned to cover any messy ends as well). You do need long hair - I felt such a sense of achievement when mine=20 grew long enough! Jean In message <36CD73A2.4ACD7BE3@ndh.net>, Andrea Clef =20 writes > >-Poster: Andrea Clef > >Yes, please continue the thread about hairstyles on the list! > >I`ve got long hair and often don`t know what to do with it when >attending medieval >events! >It=B4s always the same boring braid or I leave them virgin-like loose. >But some more years and I will look too old for that role ;-) ! > >In many periods there`s still the possibility to hide everything under a >veil >but that`s also always the same! > >Thanks ( in the name of everybody interested) for the nice instructions >already posted! > >Greetings, >Diana > > _________________________________________________________________ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME - --=20 Jean Waddie _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ End of h-costume-digest V4 #200 ******************************* _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME-DIGEST From ???@??? Mon Mar 08 13:11:36 1999 Received: from mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE (mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE [130.149.4.16]) by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA10010 for ; Sat, 6 Mar 1999 16:42:38 +0100 (MET) Received: from mail.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.15]) by mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10JJDp-0006CW-00; Sat, 6 Mar 1999 16:42:37 +0100 Received: from coal.bg.tu-berlin.de by mail.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Sat, 6 Mar 1999 16:42:24 +0100 Received: from mail.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.15]) by mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10JJDZ-0006CK-00; Sat, 6 Mar 1999 16:42:21 +0100 Received: from tubkom.prz.tu-berlin.de by mail.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Sat, 6 Mar 1999 16:42:10 +0100 Received: from mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE (mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE [130.149.4.16]) by tubkom.prz.tu-berlin.de (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA02929 for ; Sat, 6 Mar 1999 16:40:52 +0100 (MEZ) Received: from mail.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.15]) by mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10JJDK-00069m-00; Sat, 6 Mar 1999 16:42:06 +0100 Received: from server.indra.com by mail.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Sat, 6 Mar 1999 16:41:40 +0100 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.8.5/) with ESMTP id IAA27182; Sat, 6 Mar 1999 08:56:33 -0700 (MST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id IAA03063 for h-costume-digest-outgoing; Sat, 6 Mar 1999 08:40:08 -0700 (MST) Date: Sat, 6 Mar 1999 08:40:08 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199903061540.IAA03063@indra.com> From: owner-h-costume-digest@indra.com To: h-costume-digest@indra.com Subject: h-costume-digest V4 #201 Reply-To: h-costume-digest@indra.com Errors-To: owner-h-costume-digest@indra.com Precedence: bulk Status: O h-costume-digest Saturday, 6 March 1999 Volume 04 : Number 201 In this issue: H-COST: The History of Side saddles in England Re: H-COST: Stuffing and stands for homemeade dress forms WAS:foams..reg vs. hard?? Hunh?? Re: H-COST: Cross scarves, c. 1820-1850? Re: H-COST: Cross scarves, c. 1820-1850? Re: H-COST: figuring out elizabethan Re: H-COST: figuring out elizabethan H-COST: Costume museums? Re: H-COST: Costume museums? Re: H-COST: figuring out elizabethan Re: H-COST: figuring out elizabethan Re: H-COST: Re: Foams...reg. vs hard?? Hunh? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Melanie Wilson Date: Fri, 5 Mar 1999 17:27:57 -0500 Subject: H-COST: The History of Side saddles in England - -Poster: Melanie Wilson Below is a chronological list of the main refinments of ladies riding saddles, from early times into the the items English ladies now enjoy. Where avaliable, pictures tend to show either women pillion to male rider= s or with what appears to be long, split, skirts riding astride. Religious women being free of child bearing seem to be the majority, although a minority when compared to male hunters. They appear to hunt astride. = Most female hunters appear to be European not English. 14th C Anne of Bohemia is credited with introducing the side saddle to England. THIS side saddle was a stuffed platform with a platform on which= to rest ones feel called a plachette. Possibily with a pommel/handle. One= would sit at right angles to the horses spine. This would be poor for active riding. c1530 Catherine de Medici adds a 2nd pommel , these are both on the top o= f the saddle, into which the top leg was wedged. More active riding possible. Long gap with little change. c1826 Seat of saddle dips, an attempt to get rider nearer the horse inste= ad of pearched on top 1820s first balance strap seen in drawings c1830 Jules Pellier invents the 'leaping head' (a pommel which curves ove= r the top of the lower leg) allowing the rider to jump with a high level of= security c1860 the side saddle has 3 pommels and a dipped seat. c1870, third pommel( generally right top) almost gone 1876 Emperess Elizabeth of Austria, visits England to hunt(to hounds), fashionable lady riders soon follow her lead As ladies start to ride more activly there is a lot of new developments, cut back heads, the seat levels again (allowing the rider to put her weig= ht onto her thigh instead of ther bottom), apron skirts and safety stirrups.= 1890-1930s They heyday of side saddle riding, doeskin seats added(easier = to stay on as they don't slide), the pommels widen, leaping head moves to gi= ve a move forward seat for jumping. 1930-1970s gradually decline in side saddle riding. 1970 Side saddle Association formed, steady increase in side saddle ridin= g again. Some early refs: Boke of St Albans 1486 Livre de Chasse Canterbury tales 15th C = Mel _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: rio@austin.rr.com (StrangeGirl) Date: Fri, 05 Mar 1999 22:46:44 GMT Subject: Re: H-COST: Stuffing and stands for homemeade dress forms WAS:foams..reg vs. hard?? Hunh?? - -Poster: rio@austin.rr.com (StrangeGirl) Just an interjection, here, for a cost effective stuffing that I'm sure many of us have filling a bag or two in a closet... Plastic shopping bags (the thin plastic ones that always rip, from the supermarket). I stuffed my tape-and-t-shirt form with them, and succeeded in clearing out my pantry bag-stash and completely filling my form. It was free, and helped with a household cleaning problem. I used two shipping tubes for the stand upright. One is the 'spine', the other fits into a 'cup' on the base of the form, made from carboard wrapped around the end of the first tube that protrudes from the form and taped in place. This makes the form semi-collapsible. I can break it down in to two parts and stow it in the closet. I also filled in the bottom of the form with cardboard, with a hole cut in it to accomodate the tubes. This was taped in place after the bags were stuffed in. The base is a weighted box. Margery Dreadful instructions for my stand & base follow - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- You will need two 3" x 36" shipping tubes for the stand upright. You would want to measure your height from floor to collarbone, and then from collarbone to chin (this allows the tube to be a neck support for the form), place the tubes end to end, measure and mark the collarbone and chin height measurements on one tube. Trim any excess beyond the chin height measurement, and if desired cut a 1", 2" or 3" section from this excess to use as a heel height block for the form.=20 Leave the shipping plug in the uncut end of the tube. Measure around the outside of the tube, and on a scrap of lightweight cardboard, mark a rectangle the same measurement wide and 12" deep. Cut out, wrap around the tube, and tape into a cylinder. Slide up the tube until 4' of the uncut end of the tube is revealed and mark the tube. Slip the cylinder back down to the very edge of the uncut end of the tube, apply glue between the end and the mark, then slip the cylinder back up to the mark and tape securely in place. When the glue is dry, tape over the outside of the cylinder to reinforce it. You may use a dowel or heavy hanger for a shoulder support. You will need to cut the tube to accomodate the support. Put it in place and tape up the tube (being sure to avoid covering the height markings), then replace the shipping plug in the cut end of the trimmed tube and tape it in place inside the neck of the form, making sure to match the collarbone mark to the collarbone level of the form. Stuff. Make the fill-in piece for the bottom, determining where the tube should protrude (according to your posture, etc), mark and cut the hole for the tube to go through. PLace the fill-in in the bottom and tape in place.=20 The cylinder should protrude from the bottom of the form, although if one is very petite, it may not protrude very much at all. THe lower half of the stand will fit into this 'cup', which is cut long enough to allow for a heel height adjustment block up to 3". I used a heavyweight square cardboard box weighted with cheap (CLEAN!!) cat litter for a stand base. The box has a hole cut into it's top and bottom to accomodate the tube, the tube is glued and taped securely in place, and the litter was poured in thru a hole cut in the top of the box for that purpose which was then taped shut. The total materials cost, including cheap t-shirt, was about $15.00, which covers the tape, tubes, shirt, glue, cat litter and square shipping box. THe bags and scrap of carboard (from a priority mail box) are not included, as they were free. I didn't include the cost of the hanger either, as I have so many lying around the house and I chose to use a heavy plastic hanger that had cracked it's hook. Hope this helps.=20 - -----rio@austin.rr.com---Goddess of Last Minute Miracles--- "We went out with both lips blazing, and a pen in either=20 hand..." - the Flash Girls - -{*to reply take spambegone from my reply-to address*}- _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Michel McCabe Date: Fri, 05 Mar 1999 18:01:07 -0500 Subject: Re: H-COST: Cross scarves, c. 1820-1850? - -Poster: Michel McCabe >(wearing stays). I haven't tried this myself, but I wonder if crossing >the kerchief & tying it in back would give some support without stays? > (TIC) Well, it certainly was often the sole means of support to many 1970's dead heads.... _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Bill and/or Glenna Jo Christen Date: Fri, 05 Mar 1999 18:44:20 -0500 Subject: Re: H-COST: Cross scarves, c. 1820-1850? - -Poster: Bill and/or Glenna Jo Christen Poster: > In the late 18th C, a little after the American Revolution, I see > larger kerchiefs worn. One style is to start with the point in back (as > usual), cross the ends in front, and tie them in the back just above the > waist. Illustrations I've seen have been with the fashionable figure > (wearing stays). I haven't tried this myself, but I wonder if crossing > the kerchief & tying it in back would give some support without stays? I have tried this and unless they had some other method of tying the scarf than what it appears to be, you would have far too much pressure from the scarf being pulled behind the neck to give any bust or waist support. It appears to me to be purely decorative, as well as adding a modicum of modesty to lower cut bodices of the era. As I had to portray a mixed blood woman when I did fur trade, I didn't wear stays or modern support garments and even with my modest 'endowments', I was glad to return to modern bras if I engaged in any particularly vigorous activity like running, etc. Of course, if I'd never worn a bra I may have been used to that feeling. (I'd also probably look like the 'Playboy Granny' by now too. ;->) Just my $.02 worth... Glenna Jo Christen gwjchris@rust.net Visit our web site, "The Curiosity Shop" http://www.rust.net/~gwjchris/ _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Linda Thompson Date: Fri, 05 Mar 1999 18:27:46 -0600 Subject: Re: H-COST: figuring out elizabethan - -Poster: Linda Thompson Interesting postings lately... I felt the need to jump in here. I have only been studying Elizabethan for 5 years. So I still have a lot to learn. I have looked at every possible portrait I can get my hands on to figure out the bodice attached to skirt vs. bodice seperate issue since it has always concerned me. >From everything that I have seen/read etc. If the gown could be reasonably made into one piece then it was. There are an adequate amount of pictures during the Tudor period showing that, including a portrait of Elizabeth as a young woman. However during the latter half of Elizabeths reign you find increasingly more portraiture with the exagerated point center front. The more severe the point, the less likelyhood that the bodice would have been sewn directly to the skirt at the creation of the outfit. And in some cases you can actually see the horizontal trim make a jump from bodice to skirt (meaning the ends of trim at bodice did not match up at all with the leading edge of what you can see on skirt). I feel the bodices were seperate and they would have put some sort of waistband on the skirt under those circumstances. Now the bodice might have been pinned to the skirts as they were put on to be worn, since there is documentation that they did lots with pins. Janet Arnold makes reference to a seperate bodice and skirt in her "Patterns of Fashion, c1560-1620" on page 8. And frankly I take her word for it that it was done. (I am not referring to the severe duckbill shaped points they got into by the end of her reign as I have not gotten that far in my studies yet, just the intermediary ones in the middle) I do agree with Merouda, if it does not have some indication of tabs or skirting running along the bottom edge of the bodice, it was most likely attached to the skirt in some permanent manner. How we deal with it here (KC Fair) we use heavy hook and eyes to attach the bodice to the skirt (from the underneath edge of bodice to waistband of skirt). Or we pin or tie the skirt to the corset. Both seem to work just fine. Thanks Linda _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Cynthia Bucheger" Date: Fri, 05 Mar 1999 18:53:13 -0600 Subject: Re: H-COST: figuring out elizabethan - -Poster: "Cynthia Bucheger" Linda Thompson wrote: > > How we deal with it here (KC Fair) we use heavy hook and eyes to attach > the bodice to the skirt (from the underneath edge of bodice to waistband > of skirt). Or we pin or tie the skirt to the corset. Both seem to work > just fine. > I just finished(well I still have a few hooks to sew on) was made out of upholsetry velvet, very heavy stuff. At first I was just going to make the bodice and skirt two pieces, then decided not. I was doing cartridge pleats for the first time too, and I just couldn't see attaching those directly to the bodice. So I made a waist band, reinforced to fully support the weight of the skirt. The back of the bodice and skirt are tacked together, so there can't be any gaps. The front of the bodice comes down into a point and lays over the skirt, the waist band hooks together under the bodice. Do I have documentation for this method? No (waiting on the income tax return for QE unlocked) I was following an intutition if you will, of how to achieve a certain look. I've done this a number of times in the past, and later came across documentation for my method. Doesn't always work, but that's a risk I'm will take - sometimes. Alexandria _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Parsla Liepa Date: Fri, 5 Mar 1999 20:09:22 -0500 (EST) Subject: H-COST: Costume museums? - -Poster: Parsla Liepa Speaking of costume museums in strange, far-off lands, what do people know about Riga, Latvia? I might get to spend 3 months there soon. Parsla _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: SNSpies@aol.com Date: Fri, 5 Mar 1999 20:18:06 EST Subject: Re: H-COST: Costume museums? - -Poster: SNSpies@aol.com << what do people know about Riga, Latvia? >> I have been in contact with a lady who sent me her book on 10th - 13th century Latvian textiles and clothing ... Ingvild/Nancy _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Robin Netherton Date: Fri, 5 Mar 1999 20:22:36 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: H-COST: figuring out elizabethan - -Poster: Robin Netherton I've only been skimming this thread, but Marsha's list of pieces in an outfit caught my eye because I've just been working on an article on Elizabethan clothing accessories, and I've spent quite a few hours in the last few weeks burrowing through lists of items sold in shops, literary references, etc. Marsha wrote: > FYI: I find that the following layering works well, and according to my > research, is most authentic (I've worn these in all weather and find them > quite comfortable): > shift - long and close fitting, see "Cut My Cote" > corset and farthingale/s (if combining a Spanish and a small French <"bumroll">) > shirt or smock, and petticoats > Kirtle- this is the layer with the laceon sleeves, the part that we see if > the gown skirt is open at the center front (or sometimes there is a forepart > attached over a plain kirtle) > Gown, if worn. I've seen references to kirtles being worn on their own. I'm confused by the distinction between a shift (under the corset) and a smock (over the corset). All the documents I've been looking at talk about shirts and smocks, in parallel, with the implication that men wear shirts and women wear smocks, and these are equivalent garments. I don't think I've ever seen reference to two such garments for women -- "shifts" and "smocks" or even "shifts" and "shirts." In fact, I don't think I've ever seen the word "shift" used in this period, but I haven't been looking specifically for it. I had always understood the man's shirt and the woman's smock to be the washable layer closest to the skin, to protect clothing from body dirt and to protect skin from chafing from outer layers. Ashelford (Dress in the Age of Elizabeth I) provides considerable detail about this. So does Arnold; see QEWU, start of chapter VI, when she quotes a passage from a book describing a lady dressing that enumerates the sequence of the garments (smock, then bodies, then petticoat, then nightgown for warmth presumably while doing the next few steps, then socks, stockings, garters, shoes, hairdressing, and a rather confused sequence of calling for the gown and then fussing with farthingale and busk, and finally various accessories). The documents frequently describe shirts and smocks as being embroidered at the neck and cuffs. So this is presumably the garment that is visible at those spots. Certainly some smocks were undecorated and did not show, but I did not think there was an additional shirt/smock/shift over the corset, as Marsha suggests. That would be a place to put a partlet, though. Ashelford says it's frequently hard to tell what's a smock and what's a partlet in paintings. If there's evidence for two layers of this sort, as Marsha describes, I'd be most interested in learning about it. This isn't my specialty period, and there are a lot of sources I haven't combed through. - --Robin _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Margo Anderson Date: Fri, 5 Mar 1999 17:20:55 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: H-COST: figuring out elizabethan - -Poster: Margo Anderson >However during the latter half of Elizabeths reign you find increasingly >more portraiture with the exagerated point center front. The more >severe the point, the less likelyhood that the bodice would have been >sewn directly to the skirt at the creation of the outfit. And in some >cases you can actually see the horizontal trim make a jump from bodice >to skirt (meaning the ends of trim at bodice did not match up at all >with the leading edge of what you can see on skirt). I feel the bodices >were seperate and they would have put some sort of waistband on the >skirt under those circumstances. I make my Elizabethans, and most other costume dresses with large skirts, by pleating, gathering, or cartridge pleating the skirt onto a petersham ribbon stay. I then hand herringbone stitch the stay to the finished bodice at the waist line, the same level all around, not following the bodice point. The point front overlaps the skirts and they hang smoothly. This method is widely used for theatrical costumes, as it's less bulky than a finished waistband, easier to alter, and doesn't have the gapping problem. I think it's likely that period gowns might have been constructed this way. The standard turned and faced waistband is, as far as I can tell, a fairly recent invention. It gets used for costume because it't the commonly used method, and many home sewers haven't considered the alternatives and their virtues. It's also what people tend to think of as the "proper" way to sew a waistline finish. These assumptions pop up a lot. I usually have to explain to my clients that the sturdy flatlined, hand bound bodices I construct are really better for the fact that they *aren't* lined! Margo Anderson _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: trekona@erols.com Date: Sat, 06 Mar 99 15:46:05 GMT Subject: Re: H-COST: Re: Foams...reg. vs hard?? Hunh? - -Poster: trekona@erols.com Betsy wrote: > The suggestion I heard for dealing with corsets and duct tape doubles > involved corsetting *before* making the dummy, so that you were working > on the form without the actual corset beneath. You could do multiple > forms, one for each type of corset you own, or simply do a new one for > each period when you're ready to work in it, in case your figure changes > between costumes. Yup, well, *now* I've heard that! When we made it, it just seemed to me that if it's me, and it's stuffed with foam it should be squishable and should take a corset well. I don't entirely understand *why* this isn't true, only that apparently it *isn't*. Sigh. That's what's appealing about the Uniquely You - if it *is* corsetable. I will need to make a hard-foam permanent form by this summer anyway - if I'm donating that Swedish thing, I need to give them something to display it on! Actually, my friend had an idea: since in order to make the hard-foam (and I love the idea of helping fill with packing peanuts!) Ihave to wear the bodice for the taping - and we're thinking of using the plaster bandage method for the taping - what if we put the bodice on the Uniquely You and bandaged it on there (beneath a plastic bag for fabric protection, of course)?! I wouldn't have to stand forever holding my stomach in just right, and it still ought to give the right shape. Opinions before we try this and do something terrible? -Judy Mitchell _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ End of h-costume-digest V4 #201 ******************************* _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME-DIGEST From ???@??? Mon Mar 08 13:11:37 1999 Received: from mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE (mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE [130.149.4.16]) by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id EAA12780 for ; Sun, 7 Mar 1999 04:06:58 +0100 (MET) Received: from mail.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.15]) by mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10JTu5-0003r4-00; Sun, 7 Mar 1999 04:06:57 +0100 Received: from coal.bg.tu-berlin.de by mail.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Sun, 7 Mar 1999 04:06:54 +0100 Received: from mail2.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.14]) by mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10JTty-0003r2-00; Sun, 7 Mar 1999 04:06:50 +0100 Received: from tubkom.prz.tu-berlin.de by mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Sun, 7 Mar 1999 04:06:48 +0100 Received: from mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE (mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE [130.149.4.16]) by tubkom.prz.tu-berlin.de (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id EAA05079 for ; Sun, 7 Mar 1999 04:05:26 +0100 (MEZ) Received: from mail.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.15]) by mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10JTtn-0003qx-00; Sun, 7 Mar 1999 04:06:39 +0100 Received: from server.indra.com by mail.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Sun, 7 Mar 1999 04:06:30 +0100 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.8.5/) with ESMTP id UAA13447; Sat, 6 Mar 1999 20:22:12 -0700 (MST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id UAA01320 for h-costume-digest-outgoing; Sat, 6 Mar 1999 20:04:43 -0700 (MST) Date: Sat, 6 Mar 1999 20:04:43 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199903070304.UAA01320@indra.com> From: owner-h-costume-digest@indra.com To: h-costume-digest@indra.com Subject: h-costume-digest V4 #202 Reply-To: h-costume-digest@indra.com Errors-To: owner-h-costume-digest@indra.com Precedence: bulk Status: O h-costume-digest Saturday, 6 March 1999 Volume 04 : Number 202 In this issue: H-COST: Book: 19C Montreal dress Re: H-COST: Re: Foams...reg. vs hard?? Hunh? H-COST: H-Cost: Oscar gowns on auction Re: H-COST: H-Cost: Oscar gowns on auction H-COST: Re: h-costume-digest V4 #201 H-COST: Re:Figuring out Elizabethan Re: H-COST: What would you recommend?? Favorite books? Re: H-COST: H-Cost: Oscar gowns on auction H-COST: Online Gallery Re: H-COST: Book: 19C Montreal dress Re: H-COST: Re:Figuring out Elizabethan Re: H-COST: Oscar gowns on auction Re: H-COST: Stands for homemeade dress forms -- Cast Iron Cheep!! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: agottfre@telusplanet.net (Angela Gottfred) Date: Sat, 6 Mar 1999 08:48:33 -0700 Subject: H-COST: Book: 19C Montreal dress - -Poster: agottfre@telusplanet.net (Angela Gottfred) I just received this book yesterday, but thought a book review might be useful to list members, especially Canadians. _Form and Fashion : Nineteenth Century Montreal Dress_, by Jacqueline Beaudoin-Ross, is the catalog for a 1992 exhibit at the McCord Museum of Canadian History. The first half of the 95-page book is taken up with full-page color photographs of 16 fashionable gowns from this exhibit. These dresses represent the full time range of the nineteenth century, rather than clustering on one specific portion of the period. Jacqueline Beaudoin-Ross' descriptions of each costume take up a half-page; she gives details of the internal construction of each dress (gores, gauging, use of draw tapes & hooks), and shows where each garment fits into the evolution of fashion. Illustrations from fashion magazines showing similar styles are also included, as well as any additional information about that particular garment. The second half of the book is given over to the following essays: "A Historical Perspective", "An Internal Dynamic of Change", and "Notman Photographs : The Dynamic of a Sleeve", which focus on fashion theory with regard to this period, as illustrated in photographs of real clothing of the period, versus fashion magazines; "Collective Taste : Montreal Fashion Plates and Views", focuses on fashion plates published in Montreal from 1832 onwards. Several appendices focus on Canadian fashion plates and where researchers can find them. This book is invaluable for those interested in women's dress for 19th-Century Canada. It is also a good introduction for anyone to the basic trends of 19C women's fashion; a short glossary is included. Those interested in men's styles will have to look elsewhere; there is also no information on women's undergarments of the period. All the text is printed in both French and English. ISBN 0-7735-0970-4, McGill-Queen's University Press. $19.98 Canadian while supplies last (McGill is clearing out its stocks of this title.) Your humble & obedient servant, Angela Gottfred agottfre@telusplanet.net _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Margo Anderson Date: Sat, 6 Mar 1999 08:23:09 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: H-COST: Re: Foams...reg. vs hard?? Hunh? - -Poster: Margo Anderson I'd like to have a soft foam dress form, fitted to my body, that I could corset and pin into. My problem is that I don't have anyone to fit the cover. My husband really enjoyed wrapping the paper tape form we made, but he has a needles and pins phobia. If I did have someone to fit me, I wouldn't need the form so much, right? However, this thread has finally wacked me over the head with enough information for me to figure out that if I take my paper-tape form, fit a cover to it, pad my too small foam form out, and put the fitted cover on it, I'll have what I want. Duhhh... Thanks, everyone! Margo _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Margo Anderson Date: Sat, 6 Mar 1999 08:29:15 -0800 (PST) Subject: H-COST: H-Cost: Oscar gowns on auction - -Poster: Margo Anderson Did anyone watch "Oprah" Yesterday? She featured a collection of gowns worn to the Oscars over the years, which will be auctioned for charity at Christie's on March 18. The collection includes 58 gowns. Some of the ones they showed on Oprah were that hideous Samurai thing Madonna wore last year, one of Cher's from the 70's that was all bugle beaded wisps over nude sheer, and an electric blue sequin catsuit worn by Raquel Welch is a Disco Queen mood. I didn't catch how far back the gowns go. I don't know how you'd go about getting a catalog, but anyone who wants one should find out fast. I'd guess it's going to be a collector's item. Margo _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Margo Anderson Date: Sat, 6 Mar 1999 08:34:16 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: H-COST: H-Cost: Oscar gowns on auction - -Poster: Margo Anderson >I don't know how you'd go about getting a catalog Now I do. To receive the Unforgettable: Fashion of the Oscars catalog, please call the Home Shopping Network at 888-872-3992 or Christie's Auction House at 800-395-6300. _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Susan Carroll-Clark" Date: Sat, 6 Mar 1999 13:17:26 -0500 Subject: H-COST: Re: h-costume-digest V4 #201 - -Poster: "Susan Carroll-Clark" Greetings! This isn't really my period, but I thought I'd jump in, anyway... >However during the latter half of Elizabeths reign you find increasingly >more portraiture with the exagerated point center front. The more >severe the point, the less likelyhood that the bodice would have been >sewn directly to the skirt at the creation of the outfit. How about stomachers? Most of the outfits I've seen done with the long center front point have been done via making a one-piece gown (one where bodice and skirt were sewn together, lacing up front) and adding a stiffened stomacher which provides the long point. >I feel the bodices >were seperate and they would have put some sort of waistband on the >skirt under those circumstances. I would need more than this to go on. Just because WE would do it doesn't mean THEY did it in exactly the same way.... >Janet Arnold makes reference to a seperate bodice and skirt in her >"Patterns of Fashion, c1560-1620" on page 8. And frankly I take her >word for it that it was done. It's quite possible it was. OTOH, I know that several of the extant gowns she patterns in the book have bodice and skirt sewn together. So maybe both are "correct." Susan Carroll-Clark _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Linda Thompson Date: Sat, 06 Mar 1999 12:21:17 -0600 Subject: H-COST: Re:Figuring out Elizabethan - -Poster: Linda Thompson > - -Poster: Margo Anderson Margo wrote: > I make my Elizabethans, and most other costume dresses with large skirts, by > pleating, gathering, or cartridge pleating the skirt onto a petersham ribbon > stay. I then hand herringbone stitch the stay to the finished bodice at the > waist line, the same level all around, not following the bodice point. The > point front overlaps the skirts and they hang smoothly. > I also use the above mentioned methods for large skirts, although I use a band of canvas instead of ribbon. And have sewn skirts directly to the bodice on occasion, but not to one with a deep point. I tried a mock-up once using the basic skirt pattern provided on page 8 of "Patterns of Fashion" as in fig. 33 that had the skirt cut with "dip" in the front to accomodate the long pointed edge. I then cartridge pleated the skirt to a narrow band, then sewed that to the bodice. I never could get it to hang quite right. The cartridges seemed to flair out at a strange angle especially as it approached the front point. Tried it with 2 types of fabric... Drapery and heavy satin.... Did it without pleating along the dip, it layed too flat. With pleating (even shallow pleats) I got the wierd hang... Gave up! > The standard turned and faced waistband is, as far as I can tell, a fairly > recent invention. It gets used for costume because it't the commonly used > method, and many home sewers haven't considered the alternatives and their > virtues. I sort of dissagree here... Granted they probably did not use a standard turned/faced waistband as we do now, but I do believe that they did have reinforced waists and used canvas/buckram/burlap as a method of doing so. To cartridge pleat you almost have to have a band of some sort. And maybe it is a quantum leap on my part, but I really believe that it is possible that there were bands at the waist of some sort when needed. >It's also what people tend to think of as the "proper" way to sew > a waistline finish. These assumptions pop up a lot. I usually have to > explain to my clients that the sturdy flatlined, hand bound bodices I > construct are really better for the fact that they *aren't* lined! I don't understand how you get your bodices to lay flatly over a cartridge pleated skirt along the front if you do not line them? (Even if you reduce your pleating depth along the front, what happens when someone sits in an unlined bodice?) Also how do you deal with bodices that open down the front? In what way do you handle the opening/closing of the skirt part of the gown? Such as in fig. 54 on pg 11 of "POF". ( A seamless front on the skirt, aka, non-opening skirt/kirtle.) And as a side point of practicality, I find it is easier to deal with a seperate skirt and bodice when it comes to cleaning and storing. We have very dusty, nasty circumstances on occasion and it is often convenient to clean a bodice or skirt seperately. And definetly cheaper for actors to pay for dry cleaning only one part of a gown if that is needed. We have found drunks and turkey legs the most problematic. Most local cleaners charge the same fee as they would for a wedding gown and that usually runs at the cheapest $15.00, if you do not want it steamed or pressed. And it can run up to only a third of that cost when you have them seperate. Hmmm.... Sorry I got so wordy there...I must have lurked way to long . But I really want to know how others deal with these things.... :) Oh... and has anyone else had the evil urge to smuggle a small camcorder into "Shakespeare In Love".....just since you can not wait for it to come out in video? Have a good one... later Linda _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Danielle Nunn Date: Fri, 05 Mar 1999 20:52:09 -0500 Subject: Re: H-COST: What would you recommend?? Favorite books? - -Poster: Danielle Nunn Greetings, >>My husband, as a Valentine's Day gift, offered to buy me any >>costume book I choose! What shall I buy? I have been researching the >>Elizabeth's Wardrobe Unlocked, but am interested in what you all might >>choose. If he's left himself open like that ;P definitely go for "Queen Elizabeth's Wardrobe Unlock'd." It's worth every penny and is invaluable. Cheers, Danielle _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: rio@austin.rr.com (StrangeGirl) Date: Sat, 06 Mar 1999 19:40:52 GMT Subject: Re: H-COST: H-Cost: Oscar gowns on auction - -Poster: rio@austin.rr.com (StrangeGirl) On Sat, 6 Mar 1999 08:29:15 -0800 (PST), -Poster: Margo Anderson wrote: >Did anyone watch "Oprah" Yesterday? She featured a collection of gowns worn >to the Oscars over the years, which will be auctioned for charity at >Christie's on March 18. =20 There is an article on this collection in this month's (Spring) Vogue, for the curious who are not interested in buying a catalog. It is mentioned on the cover, and spans 4-5 pages with photographs of the gowns at the original wearing :) You'll have to buy it or look at it in a library, though, because it's got a mini-special shrink-wrapped to the back. Margery - -----rio@austin.rr.com---Goddess of Last Minute Miracles--- "We went out with both lips blazing, and a pen in either=20 hand..." - the Flash Girls - -{*to reply take spambegone from my reply-to address*}- _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Linda Thompson Date: Sat, 06 Mar 1999 14:49:39 -0600 Subject: H-COST: Online Gallery - -Poster: Linda Thompson If you ever have a chance to just sit and cruise, a neat place to stop at is http://gallery.euroweb.hu/index.html Many, many pictures and sculptures to enjoy. And to use as reference. Later, _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Dustins6@aol.com Date: Sat, 6 Mar 1999 16:07:06 EST Subject: Re: H-COST: Book: 19C Montreal dress - -Poster: Dustins6@aol.com Form and Fashion : Nineteenth Century Montreal Dress_, by Jacqueline Beaudoin-Ross, sounds very interesting. I wondered if anyone knew of something similar covering Canadian fashion in the eighteenth and seventeenth centuries? Hope _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Margo Anderson Date: Sat, 6 Mar 1999 16:54:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: H-COST: Re:Figuring out Elizabethan - -Poster: Margo Anderson >I also use the above mentioned methods for large skirts, although I use >a band of canvas instead of ribbon. Petersham ribbon resembles grosgrain, but it is very stiff, comparable to the canvas you use. It's just more convenient because it's already finished (and less convenient because I have to mail order it). sturdy flatlined, hand bound bodices I >> construct are really better for the fact that they *aren't* lined! > >I don't understand how you get your bodices to lay flatly over a >cartridge pleated skirt along the front if you do not line them? (Even >if you reduce your pleating depth along the front, what happens when >someone sits in an unlined bodice?) >Also how do you deal with bodices that open down the front? My bodices are flatlined, or underlined, which is done by cutting the bodice piece in the fashion fabric and a second fabric (I use duck or canvas) and stitching the peices together, then treating them as one layer during assembly. Casings for boning can be sewn to the flatlining before attaching the fashion fabric, if needed, and I usually add a layer of cotton flannel between the fashion fabric and the canvas to soften the look and hide the bone lines if I do. It is possible to bone a bodice heavily enough that a corset doesn't need to be worn, which is what I did when I was breastfeeding. I finish all edges--neck, armholes, waist and front or back opening, by binding either with a bias binding turned to the inside and handstitched to the flatlining, or with narrow piping, the seam allowance of which is turned under and stitched to the flatlining. I sew the side seams after the binding is on, leaving at least 1" seam allowances on the sides for alterations. It's a lot of handwork, but it looks great, is easy to alter, and I still think it's easier and less strain on the fabric than trying to bag a lining and turn it on a boned garment. >In what way do you handle the opening/closing of the skirt part of the >gown? Such as in fig. 54 on pg 11 of "POF". ( A seamless front on the >skirt, aka, non-opening skirt/kirtle.) It's hard to tell, from that reproduction of the picture, if the bodice is front fastening. Assuming that it is, the point is long enough that the bodice opening itself would be big enough, with no need for a placket in the skirt. I think it's more likely that this skirt and bodice has a back fastening concealed by the overdress. Generally, I make a continous placket in the skirt at the same location as the bodice opening, and sew heavy hooks and eyes to the petersham. I usually fasten the placket closed with large snaps, but if a client requests, I have used flat buttons, with buttonholes through the inner layer only of the upper side of the placket, so that the buttons don't show when worn. Margo Anderson "One Tough Costumer" _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Penny E. Ladnier" Date: Sat, 6 Mar 1999 18:00:25 -0500 Subject: Re: H-COST: Oscar gowns on auction - -Poster: "Penny E. Ladnier" If you would like to purchase the Christie's catalog for the auction go to https://www.christies.com/secure/catalogue/index.html It is located at the bottom of the page. Later...Penny http://www.costumegallery.com >Did anyone watch "Oprah" Yesterday? She featured a collection of gowns worn >to the Oscars over the years, which will be auctioned for charity at >Christie's on March 18. The collection includes 58 gowns. Some of the ones >they showed on Oprah were that hideous Samurai thing Madonna wore last year, >one of Cher's from the 70's that was all bugle beaded wisps over nude sheer, >and an electric blue sequin catsuit worn by Raquel Welch is a Disco Queen >mood. I didn't catch how far back the gowns go. > >I don't know how you'd go about getting a catalog, but anyone who wants one >should find out fast. I'd guess it's going to be a collector's item. > >Margo > > _________________________________________________________________ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Christy Gilbreath" Date: Sat, 6 Mar 1999 19:03:08 -0800 Subject: Re: H-COST: Stands for homemeade dress forms -- Cast Iron Cheep!! - -Poster: "Christy Gilbreath" I was at our local Builder's Supply place this afternoon (Home Base). I found something that I think would work well for a dress form Base -- An Outdoor Umbrella Stand! They had some for under $10 that you fill with sand for stability, but the best was a HEAVY Cast Iron stand for $24.99!! This thing is made to hold a big umbrella steady in the wind. It was really pretty too. It had a floral "wrought" look to it and was painted white. The Cast Iron Base had a hold in the middle for the umbrella pole. You could easily put a PVC pipe down it (or broomstick weight dowel) and slide a larger PVC pipe over it. The outer pipe would be coming from the bottom of the dress form. This could even be used for multiple dress form heights. If you drilled holes across the inner PVC pipe say every inch or two, and one set of holes on the outer PCV pipe, you could insert a metal pin through the lined up holes to hold your dress form at different heights. For different heights, you could also make the pipe in the holder two to three feet and then make the outer pipe long enough to rest on the top of the stand itself -- say the stand is 1 foot tall. You need the BOTTOM of the dress for to be 3.5 feet off the ground. You would have 2.5 feet of pipe sticking out the bottom of the dress form -- 2.5 + 1 = 3.5 feet. I hope that makes sense. Anyway, I thought this might give you all a cheaper alternative for the cast iron base. Even with the PVC pipe cost, you should be able to do it for $35 - $45. This would give a very sturdy base. _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ End of h-costume-digest V4 #202 ******************************* _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME-DIGEST From ???@??? Mon Mar 08 13:11:44 1999 Received: from mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE (mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE [130.149.4.16]) by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA20456 for ; Mon, 8 Mar 1999 05:53:26 +0100 (MET) Received: from mail.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.15]) by mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10Js2f-0001SR-00; Mon, 8 Mar 1999 05:53:25 +0100 Received: from coal.bg.tu-berlin.de by mail.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Mon, 8 Mar 1999 05:52:42 +0100 Received: from mail.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.15]) by mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10Js1v-0001Qv-01; Mon, 8 Mar 1999 05:52:39 +0100 Received: from tubkom.prz.tu-berlin.de by mail.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Mon, 8 Mar 1999 05:52:26 +0100 Received: from mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE (mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE [130.149.4.16]) by tubkom.prz.tu-berlin.de (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id FAA09619 for ; Mon, 8 Mar 1999 05:51:07 +0100 (MEZ) Received: from mail.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.15]) by mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10Js1f-0001Qt-00; Mon, 8 Mar 1999 05:52:23 +0100 Received: from server.indra.com by mail.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Mon, 8 Mar 1999 05:52:21 +0100 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.8.5/) with ESMTP id WAA27107; Sun, 7 Mar 1999 22:10:25 -0700 (MST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id VAA26930 for h-costume-digest-outgoing; Sun, 7 Mar 1999 21:50:28 -0700 (MST) Date: Sun, 7 Mar 1999 21:50:28 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199903080450.VAA26930@indra.com> From: owner-h-costume-digest@indra.com To: h-costume-digest@indra.com Subject: h-costume-digest V4 #203 Reply-To: h-costume-digest@indra.com Errors-To: owner-h-costume-digest@indra.com Precedence: bulk Status: O h-costume-digest Sunday, 7 March 1999 Volume 04 : Number 203 In this issue: H-COST: Diana's dresses H-COST: Re: h-costume-digest V4 #201 Re: H-COST: Stands for homemeade dress forms -- Cast Iron Cheep!! H-COST: Elizabethan partlets (& modern equivalents!) H-COST: Re:Elizabethan H-COST: Sidesaddle c. 1857 and plug for "Antiques" Re: H-COST: Diana's dresses H-COST: Another Tudor question H-COST: H-cost: Bonnet supplier? Re: H-COST: H-cost: Bonnet supplier? Re: H-COST: Re:Foams...reg. vs hard?? Hunh? Re: H-COST: Elizabethan partlets (& modern equivalents!) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Pierre & Sandy Pettinger Date: Sun, 07 Mar 1999 00:04:21 -0600 Subject: H-COST: Diana's dresses - -Poster: Pierre & Sandy Pettinger Just found out a couple of weeks ago that the exhibit: Dresses for Humanity: Dresses of Diana, Princess of Wales will be coming to Omaha NE from April 11 ot May 16. Penny, is this the exhibit you worked on? We are planning to go see it some time while it is here. Pierre and Sandy _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Marsha McLean Date: Sun, 7 Mar 1999 09:58:34 -0500 (EST) Subject: H-COST: Re: h-costume-digest V4 #201 - -Poster: Marsha McLean I must respond Linda Thompson wrote: >However during the latter half of Elizabeths reign you find increasingly >more portraiture with the exagerated point center front. The more >severe the point, the less likelyhood that the bodice would have been >sewn directly to the skirt at the creation of the outfit. And in some >cases you can actually see the horizontal trim make a jump from bodice >to skirt (meaning the ends of trim at bodice did not match up at all >with the leading edge of what you can see on skirt). I feel the bodices >were seperate and they would have put some sort of waistband on the >skirt under those circumstances. Now the bodice might have been pinned >to the skirts as they were put on to be worn, since there is >documentation that they did lots with pins. I have made the very long pointed bodices and sewn them to the skirt with great success. In fact, I find that the skirt beig\ng sewn on is more effective at keeping the point from flipping up than heavy boning. >Janet Arnold makes reference to a seperate bodice and skirt in her >"Patterns of Fashion, c1560-1620" on page 8. And frankly I take her >word for it that it was done. I still think that's CUT seperately. And that would be why the trim doesn't line up - the way the skirt is pleated onto the bodice puts the bodice trim on a different angle than the skirt trim. I have used the sewn together technique on every fabric fron heave theater curtain velvet to silk satin brocade (VERY heavy stuff) - I interline my bodices with canvas, and there is no pulling as long as I use even, tiny stitches. And Robin wrote: >I'm confused by the distinction between a shift (under the corset) and a >smock (over the corset). All the documents I've been looking at talk about >shirts and smocks, in parallel, with the implication that men wear shirts >and women wear smocks, and these are equivalent garments. I don't think >I've ever seen reference to two such garments for women -- "shifts" and >"smocks" or even "shifts" and "shirts." In fact, I don't think I've ever >seen the word "shift" used in this period, but I haven't been looking >specifically for it. Sorry, "shift" is my word, and my reasoning is that I need a layer between me and my corset for comfort and cleanliness. This, for me, is the square necked layer we see peeking out OVER the square bodice neckline, but frequently UNDER the shirt (or smock or partlet). I find that if I wear the shirt UNDER the corset, no matter what I do, the corset ALWAYS shows. This is a conclusion I've come to by "gut", assimilating a LOT of reading. I am looking forward to my time on the list making me state my reasoning logically! _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: AnnBWass@aol.com Date: Sun, 7 Mar 1999 12:39:47 EST Subject: Re: H-COST: Stands for homemeade dress forms -- Cast Iron Cheep!! - -Poster: AnnBWass@aol.com Another idea for dress form stands is a Christmas tree stand. Yes, I know it's the wrong season to buy them, but I happen to have 2 in my attic that I never use anymore. _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Robin Netherton Date: Sun, 7 Mar 1999 12:50:04 -0500 (EST) Subject: H-COST: Elizabethan partlets (& modern equivalents!) - -Poster: Robin Netherton I wrote: > >I'm confused by [Marsha's] distinction between a shift (under the > >corset) and a smock (over the corset). All the documents I've been > >looking at talk about shirts and smocks, in parallel, with the > >implication that men wear shirts and women wear smocks, and these are > >equivalent garments. I don't think I've ever seen reference to two such > >garments for women -- "shifts" and "smocks" or even "shifts" and > >"shirts." In fact, I don't think I've ever seen the word "shift" used > >in this period, but I haven't been looking specifically for it. On Sun, 7 Mar 1999, Marsha McLean wrote: > Sorry, "shift" is my word, and my reasoning is that I need a layer between > me and my corset for comfort and cleanliness. This, for me, is the square > necked layer we see peeking out OVER the square bodice neckline, but > frequently UNDER the shirt (or smock or partlet). Yes, it's certain that one needs a washable layer between body and corset, and I've always understood that the Elizabethans called that layer a smock, both from images and from written accounts. This smock could be visible (and decorated) and stand on its own, or it could be covered by a partlet that sits over the corset, under the bodice. So, I can agree that this smock would be the "square-necked layer" sometimes visible under a partlet. But I'd be much obliged if you could point me to an example of a next-to-the-body smock visible behind another layer worn over the corset that is not a partlet, or could not be a partlet. I'm having trouble envisioning a second full garment with sleeves (another smock, a shirt, whatever you want to call it) that lies over the corset, under the bodice. Ashelford seems to have recognized the same issue, as she writes, "The partlet... could either be made of embroidered linen, of a rich fabric,... or of a transparent fabric, such as net, cypress or fine lawn, so that the smock worn underneath is revealed. It is often difficult to discern the difference between a partlet and a smock in a painting if both are made of the same material, and to make differentiation still more difficult, after about 1560 both have a standing collar with separate ruff attached. [Here she shows some pictures of women with two stacked layers of ruff.] Where partlet and sleeves were made as a matching set it is impossible to decide whether one is looking at the separate matching sleeves of the partlet or the sleeves of the smock." > I find that if I wear the shirt UNDER the corset, no matter what I do, > the corset ALWAYS shows. This is a conclusion I've come to by "gut", > assimilating a LOT of reading. I have only worn the shirt under the corset, and I personally have not had trouble with my corset showing from behind my bodice. This is either because there's enough difference in neckline height, or because I have pinned a strip of lace to the inside of the front bodice edge, which hides any bit of corset peeking over. (That strip of lace is evident in a lot of later portraits; see for example Queen Elizabeth by Gheeraerts, figure 21 in Ashelford's Dress in the Age of Elizabeth I, and Anne Conningsby, fig. 25 in the same book.) Still, I have not worn as much Elizabethan as you, so maybe I've just been lucky. I think if I had a chronic problem with an outfit, I'd add a partlet rather than adding another smock/shirt. I remember wearing a 20th-century version of a partlet in the mid-1970s. We called it a dickey. It was out of fashion even then, but I found some put away that must have belonged to a cousin. No one else could tell I didn't have a whole turtleneck sweater under my jacket or shirt, and it was a whole lot cooler. (No fake sleeves to match, though.) Today some of my V-necked suit-style dresses come with little strips of lace or silky fabric to button across the point of the V, to imitate a camisole or shell top. Much like those 15th-century black insets at the points of V-necked dresses (reminds me, I have to prepare a paper on *those* this month, eek). > I am looking forward to my time on the list making me state my reasoning > logically! It'll do that. :-) I can't count the number of times I've rethought something only because I've had to explain it in writing. Welcome to the list (if I'm allowed to extend welcome, being mostly a lurker myself). - --Robin _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Linda Thompson Date: Sun, 07 Mar 1999 15:53:51 -0600 Subject: H-COST: Re:Elizabethan - -Poster: Linda Thompson Margo, I realize now what you mean by flatlined... I do the same thing only never had a name for it. I attach the canvas to the lining fabric, then that gets sewn to the top fabric. I do pockets for the stays in the lining layer. And do as many layers as needed so stays do not show thru etc.... I also do a lot of hand finishing work on armholes and edges. Susan, Our fair has not moved into the latter portion of Elizabethan. The latest we have gone into her reign is 1985. I have not done a stomacher. I have seen gowns done with stomachers as you described and that makes perfect sense to me. Thanks all for the information. It has been helpful and informative. Linda _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Sheridan Alder Date: Sun, 07 Mar 1999 18:55:00 -0600 Subject: H-COST: Sidesaddle c. 1857 and plug for "Antiques" - -Poster: Sheridan Alder Hello everyone: A late contribution to "riding sidesaddle": I was skimming through some old "Antiques" magazines, when I came across the following reproduction in an ad for an art gallery: William Tyler Ranney (1813-1857) "The Pioneers", c. 1857 Oil on canvas A woman in a blue bonnet and gown, with a white neckkerchief, rides a stocky dapple grey horse side-saddle, while a bearded man strides alongside the oxen drawing the covered wagon. I'd also like to make a plug for "Antiques" (ISSN 0161-9284) as a source for costume information. I don't remember anyone ever mentioning it, but I always find something to clip and file. I have no association with them - my husband and I are hopelessly addicted "antiquers", and I usually pick up old ones from dealers or at shows for a dollar. Any decent magazine store will stock them, but they're a little pricey new. There's almost always something useful in them, whether it's a colour reproduction of an eighteenth century portrait in "New Museum Acquisitions" or a early nineteenth century folk art portrait in a ad for a gallery or antique dealer. They frequently feature early American paintings (lots o' portraits! - saw a c. 1769 lady in a bright pink-red gown that took me aback) in various museum and gallery collections. There's the occasional article on costume, textiles, needlework and fans. Unlike most magazines, some of the best stuff can be found in the ads. I'd be careful of some of the dating given by dealers though; their dates seem "off" sometimes. Most of the articles featured are high-end and way out my league (my bank account can't carry Georgian silver or "important" Boston furniture), but "Antiques" is worth having a look at. Sheridan Alder _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Ron Dallas Date: Sun, 07 Mar 1999 20:02:16 -0500 Subject: Re: H-COST: Diana's dresses - -Poster: Ron Dallas I saw the exhibit of Diana's Dresses when it was in Lowell, MA. When you get up close and personal you can see all the fascinating special ways with closures, the beading, etc. that you'd never pick up in a photo. You've GOT to go see them! Got lots of new ideas from them. Janice Dallas _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Kristen M. Sieber" Date: Sun, 7 Mar 1999 17:29:49 -0800 (PST) Subject: H-COST: Another Tudor question - -Poster: "Kristen M. Sieber" Tudor is not my usual time period so please forgive my lack of vocabulary. I watched a 1950s movie last night about young Queen Elizabeth ("Young Bess"). In one scene she wore a "typical" Tudor dress, but it had short sleeves and a kind of full-sleeved (gathered at the wrist) chemise under it. It looked quite good, but is it authentic? == Morgaine of Glastonbury MKA Kristen Morgaine Sieber Barony of Aquaterra Kingdom of An Tir lady_gawain@yahoo.com _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Margo Anderson Date: Sun, 7 Mar 1999 19:11:24 -0800 (PST) Subject: H-COST: H-cost: Bonnet supplier? - -Poster: Margo Anderson I'm looking for a source for pre-made buckram frames for 1850's bonnets. Untrimmed straw ones would be nice, too. Margo Anderson _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: MissMela@aol.com Date: Sun, 7 Mar 1999 22:35:30 EST Subject: Re: H-COST: H-cost: Bonnet supplier? - -Poster: MissMela@aol.com For premade buckram 1850's bonnet frames, no one offers a better product than Mary at Enhancements. Her frames are the sturdiest I have ever seen and very well made. She can be reached through H-Costume, but I know she is busy lately. Her business is all mail order out of Anaheim California. She also sells at Costume College in July. Mela _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "karrissa david" Date: Sun, 07 Mar 1999 23:11:02 EST Subject: Re: H-COST: Re:Foams...reg. vs hard?? Hunh? - -Poster: "karrissa david" Stated by Margo > >This is a great idea, BTW. I'm hoping for a new couch soon, and the >cushions from the old one will be perfect for experimenting. > >"We have to get a new couch, dear. I cut up the old one for costuming". >Hmm, something tells me he wouldn't be at all surprised. Actually, for those who have a upolstry (sp?) shop close by, there is a cotton batting which is covered by soft muslin fabric (I have forgotten the name which is used.) My upolsterist uses it for old reproductions which they want the old fashion stuffing and feeling with out the mess of just having cotton. It is wonderful!!! This is what I use on my hard forms to make them plyable. Just My 2 cents, Karrissa ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Danielle Nunn Date: Sun, 07 Mar 1999 23:57:50 -0500 Subject: Re: H-COST: Elizabethan partlets (& modern equivalents!) - -Poster: Danielle Nunn Greetings, >Yes, it's certain that one needs a washable layer between body and corset, >and I've always understood that the Elizabethans called that layer a >smock, both from images and from written accounts. This smock could be >visible (and decorated) and stand on its own, or it could be covered by a >partlet that sits over the corset, under the bodice. So, I can agree that >this smock would be the "square-necked layer" sometimes visible under a >partlet. But I'd be much obliged if you could point me to an example of a >next-to-the-body smock visible behind another layer worn over the corset >that is not a partlet, or could not be a partlet. I'm having trouble >envisioning a second full garment with sleeves (another smock, a shirt, >whatever you want to call it) that lies over the corset, under the bodice. Well, unfortunately we have no proof either way. There are many depictions of Ladies wearing a low square-necked smock and something either partlet or second smock over it. For examples, look at the front and back covers of QE's Wardrobe. The picture on the front cover "The Pelican Portrait" I think lends credence to the concept of two layers. Notice how the blackwork pattern in the upper area of the partlet/smock (neckline) matches the blackwork pattern in the sleeves. This leads me to believe in the strong possiblity that it is a single garment, i.e. smock. There are extant smocks/shirts which are gathered into a high neckband (see Arnold's "Shirts..." article) as well as plenty of depictions of them. See the picture "Queen Elizabeth I and the three goddesses" pg. 150 QE's Wardrobe. >Ashelford seems to have recognized the same issue, as she writes, "The >partlet... could either be made of embroidered linen, of a rich fabric,... >or of a transparent fabric, such as net, cypress or fine lawn, so that the >smock worn underneath is revealed. It is often difficult to discern the >difference between a partlet and a smock in a painting if both are made of >the same material, and to make differentiation still more difficult, after >about 1560 both have a standing collar with separate ruff attached. [Here >she shows some pictures of women with two stacked layers of ruff.] Where >partlet and sleeves were made as a matching set it is impossible to decide >whether one is looking at the separate matching sleeves of the partlet or >the sleeves of the smock." The problem with this is, I've never seen any evidence for partlet and sleeve sets. I've never seen any extant ones or any mention of them in wardrobe accounts, wills, or period writings like Stubbes, "The Fair Perfectioning of Ladies," etc... If I remember correctly, Arnold makes no mention of them in her "Shirts..." article either. To me, the partlet with sleeves seems like another one of those insidious costuming myths. Besides which, how does a partlet with sleeves differ, in terms of the number of layers worn, from a second smock? Your still talking about two sets of sleeves. >Today some of my V-necked suit-style dresses come with little strips of >lace or silky fabric to button across the point of the V, to imitate a >camisole or shell top. Much like those 15th-century black insets at the >points of V-necked dresses (reminds me, I have to prepare a paper on >*those* this month, eek). This of course brings up another issue, Why do think that the "insets" in the 15th century dress are faked? I've seen some good research on those "Burgundian v-necked gowns" which explain it as a modified/evolved houppeland with the under-dress/kirtle showing underneath. That makes much more sense to me but, this isn't my area of expertise. >It'll do that. :-) I can't count the number of times I've rethought >something only because I've had to explain it in writing. I have to agree with that! I've had to apologise on the list after rethinking something. ;) That's what I love about this list, it really makes you think about WHY you're convinced something is the "way it is." How's that for stirring the pot? Cheers, Danielle _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ End of h-costume-digest V4 #203 ******************************* _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME-DIGEST From ???@??? Mon Mar 08 19:29:26 1999 Received: from mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE (mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE [130.149.4.16]) by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA29215 for ; Mon, 8 Mar 1999 19:20:06 +0100 (MET) Received: from mail.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.15]) by mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10K4dJ-0003uF-00; Mon, 8 Mar 1999 19:20:05 +0100 Received: from coal.bg.tu-berlin.de by mail.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Mon, 8 Mar 1999 19:19:52 +0100 Received: from mail.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.15]) by mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10K4d3-0003tj-00; Mon, 8 Mar 1999 19:19:49 +0100 Received: from tubkom.prz.tu-berlin.de by mail.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Mon, 8 Mar 1999 19:19:42 +0100 Received: from mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE (mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE [130.149.4.16]) by tubkom.prz.tu-berlin.de (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA16052 for ; Mon, 8 Mar 1999 19:18:15 +0100 (MEZ) Received: from mail.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.15]) by mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10K4cl-0003t6-00; Mon, 8 Mar 1999 19:19:31 +0100 Received: from server.indra.com by mail.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Mon, 8 Mar 1999 19:18:47 +0100 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.8.5/) with ESMTP id LAA16624; Mon, 8 Mar 1999 11:37:19 -0700 (MST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id LAA15778 for h-costume-digest-outgoing; Mon, 8 Mar 1999 11:16:12 -0700 (MST) Date: Mon, 8 Mar 1999 11:16:12 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199903081816.LAA15778@indra.com> From: owner-h-costume-digest@indra.com To: h-costume-digest@indra.com Subject: h-costume-digest V4 #204 Reply-To: h-costume-digest@indra.com Errors-To: owner-h-costume-digest@indra.com Precedence: bulk h-costume-digest Monday, 8 March 1999 Volume 04 : Number 204 In this issue: Re: H-COST: Elizabethan partlets (& modern equivalents!) Re: H-COST: Elizabethan partlets (& modern equivalents!) re: H-COST: Sidesaddle c. 1857 and plug for "Antiques" H-COST: 'early 1800's' cloth from saree stores H-COST: photos of a female field hands in corsets re: Re: H-COST: Cross scarves, c. 1820-1850? H-COST: Corsetry ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Robin Netherton Date: Mon, 8 Mar 1999 01:35:00 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: H-COST: Elizabethan partlets (& modern equivalents!) - -Poster: Robin Netherton I wrote: > >Yes, it's certain that one needs a washable layer between body and corset, > >and I've always understood that the Elizabethans called that layer a > >smock, both from images and from written accounts. This smock could be > >visible (and decorated) and stand on its own, or it could be covered by a > >partlet that sits over the corset, under the bodice. So, I can agree that > >this smock would be the "square-necked layer" sometimes visible under a > >partlet. But I'd be much obliged if you could point me to an example of a > >next-to-the-body smock visible behind another layer worn over the corset > >that is not a partlet, or could not be a partlet. I'm having trouble > >envisioning a second full garment with sleeves (another smock, a shirt, > >whatever you want to call it) that lies over the corset, under the bodice. Danielle replied: > Well, unfortunately we have no proof either way. There are many depictions > of Ladies wearing a low square-necked smock and something either partlet or > second smock over it. For examples, look at the front and back covers of > QE's Wardrobe. The picture on the front cover "The Pelican Portrait" I > think lends credence to the concept of two layers. Notice how the > blackwork pattern in the upper area of the partlet/smock (neckline) matches > the blackwork pattern in the sleeves. This leads me to believe in the > strong possiblity that it is a single garment, i.e. smock. Yes, this looks like a smock to me, too. But I don't see how this necessarily implies two layers. I could see still this smock as the layer worn closest to the skin -- in other words, the sort of smock I referred to above as "visible (and decorated) and stand[ing] on its own." I don't think there's any argument that some smocks were low-necked and others had high collars. The one in this portrait would be a high-collared one, and I don't see a sign of a low-necked one behind it. The bosom is bare. The line of lace across the bottom of the triangle of open bosom could be an inset (it's a slightly different pattern than the lace running down the open edges of the smock, and there's no continuation of that line showing through the smock at the sides of the neckline). The smock would thus have two open straight edges down the front, and be easy to arrange (I've worn one like this, and arranging it under the corset helps keep it in place). Oddly, now that I've written the above (and I won't rewrite it, as it shows how I viewed the picture on my first look), I see that Arnold has a completely different interpretation of this portrait, on p. 22. She reads it as "matching sleeves and partlet." She further adds that the sleeves and partlet are themselves double-layered, with the base layer being linen embroidered with black silk, and the outer (protective) layer made of transparent cypress. The gold threads are worked on the cypress. At the sides of the neck opening, we presumably see the linen layer edged with black needle lace, and over that the cypress layer edged with gold bobbin lace. (I'm guessing that these two layers are built together, not two separate garments.) Most interesting, she reads that edge at the bottom of the bosom as the edge of the smock neckline. Given that interpretation, I think I can see the separate shimmer of the cypress overlay in the jacket photo. It's probably clearer on the original painting (so many things don't come through in reproductions), so I'll trust Arnold's reading more than mine. On the Phoenix portrait (back cover and page 23) I see a partlet, with the line of the smock showing horizontally above the bodice (the slight difference in the lace edging indicates two different garments). Arnold sees the same. No sleeves to wonder about here, and no reason to think this is anything but a partlet. > There are extant smocks/shirts which are gathered into a high neckband (see > Arnold's "Shirts..." article) as well as plenty of depictions of them. See > the picture "Queen Elizabeth I and the three goddesses" pg. 150 QE's > Wardrobe. Yes, plenty of high-collared smocks around at this time (1569 for the painting) with attached small ruffs at the neck. These high-collared smocks seem to disappear as the big ruffs come in. (The work I've been doing lately has been c. 1600, so I'm not well-versed in the sequence of changes that occurred over the 30 years preceding that.) My initial question arose because of the suggestion that one smock would be worn *under* the corset and a second worn *over* it. I can see wearing a single smock (high or low neck) under the corset, or a smock under and a partlet over -- but I still haven't seen any reason to assume two smocks, one in each position. That doesn't mean this never happened, or that there aren't some pictures somewhere that suggest this possibility, but I certainly haven't seen it as the norm, either in written descriptions or in images. I might see differently if I went back through hundreds of portraits looking specifically for an example of two smock layers, but even if I found one or two, that doesn't mean that this would be typical. And that's all I was getting at. > >Ashelford writes... "Where > >partlet and sleeves were made as a matching set it is impossible to decide > >whether one is looking at the separate matching sleeves of the partlet or > >the sleeves of the smock." > > The problem with this is, I've never seen any evidence for partlet and > sleeve sets. I've never seen any extant ones or any mention of them in > wardrobe accounts, wills, or period writings like Stubbes, "The Fair > Perfectioning of Ladies," etc... If I remember correctly, Arnold makes no > mention of them in her "Shirts..." article either. But she does on p. 22 of QEWU: "Elizabeth had many pairs of sleeves, smocks, and partlets embroidered in blackwork on fine white lawn." This is the same passage in which she identifies the "matching sleeves and partlet" in the Pelican portrait. And now I am out of my depth. I have not studied this at all, which is why I'm going by Arnold and Ashelford, and asking questions when I don't understand someone's interpretation. > To me, the partlet with sleeves seems like another one of those insidious > costuming myths. Besides which, how does a partlet with sleeves differ, in > terms of the number of layers worn, from a second smock? Your still > talking about two sets of sleeves. I personally would find a crucial difference in bulk under the arms and around the torso. > >Today some of my V-necked suit-style dresses come with little strips of > >lace or silky fabric to button across the point of the V, to imitate a > >camisole or shell top. Much like those 15th-century black insets at the > >points of V-necked dresses (reminds me, I have to prepare a paper on > >*those* this month, eek). > > This of course brings up another issue, Why do think that the "insets" in > the 15th century dress are faked? I've seen some good research on those > "Burgundian v-necked gowns" which explain it as a modified/evolved > houppeland with the under-dress/kirtle showing underneath. That makes much > more sense to me but, this isn't my area of expertise. Good question, and I have half of a good answer. The paper I'm working on right now (which is on the dresses, not the insets -- I didn't make that clear above) points out that there are actually two distinct "V-necked" styles in this century (possibly more, I'm still working on it). Aside from the V neck, the styles are quite different in cut, silhouette, evolution, and time/place distribution. But everyone seems to notice only the V-neck, and assumes that all V-necked gowns are variations of the same thing. Once I learned to recognize the difference, I found I could walk through the museums in Flanders, dating the pictures from a distance by the V-necked gowns -- "1440s..." "1470s..." As far as I'm concerned, you're right on the mark regarding the style of the early 1400s, with the narrow, deep V that shows the underdress. (In fact, I think the development of this style from the houpelandde was part of a lecture I gave in your area about eight years ago, so maybe my work has contributed to the research you've heard.) However, the style of the later 1400s is built much differently, and there are reasonable indications that the black panel at this late date is vestigial. (On the other hand, it's possible that every underdress of the 1470s was black...) But I'm still working on this paper. I have about 300 slides and prints to analyze and chart before I can make any definitive statements. (And I'd better get it done within the next few weeks.) - --Robin _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Margo Anderson Date: Mon, 8 Mar 1999 08:35:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: H-COST: Elizabethan partlets (& modern equivalents!) - -Poster: Margo Anderson A >Yes, this looks like a smock to me, too. But I don't see how this >necessarily implies two layers. I could see still this smock as the layer >worn closest to the skin -- in other words, the sort of smock I referred >to above as "visible (and decorated) and stand[ing] on its own." I don't >think there's any argument that some smocks were low-necked and others had >high collars. The one in this portrait would be a high-collared one, and I >don't see a sign of a low-necked one behind it. The bosom is bare. The >line of lace across the bottom of the triangle of open bosom could be an >inset (it's a slightly different pattern than the lace running down the >open edges of the smock, and there's no continuation of that line showing >through the smock at the sides of the neckline). The smock would thus have >two open straight edges down the front, and be easy to arrange (I've worn >one like this, and arranging it under the corset helps keep it in place). I've worn the open, high necked smock under my corset, and found that the area of my corset where the smock wasn't was much more soiled than the rest of it, because it was next to bare skin. Sweat, Faire dirt, and body oil can do damage amazingly fast. When I wear the square necked smock under my corset, and the high necked one over it, my corset stays clean. A linen smock would have been much easier to wash than a corset. Margo _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "David W. Rickman" Date: Mon, 8 Mar 99 11:00:54 EST Subject: re: H-COST: Sidesaddle c. 1857 and plug for "Antiques" - -Poster: "David W. Rickman" Hello, O.K., now I get to brag about my wife, Deborah Kraak, who has published a couple of articles in _Antiques_ in recent years. Unfortunately, they do not have anything to do with costume, but with ingrain carpets and another on 18th century garden design and its influence on textile design, especially for floral silks (which were used for dresses). The ingrain carpeting article was, however, useful for convincing my employers (Delaware State Parks) to allow me to spend very big bucks to put reproduction wall-to-wall carpeting in the American Civil War-era coastal defense fort I am furnishing. That aside, Sheridan is quite right about it being a wonderful source of images. William Ranney is an important source for early American pioneers. David drickman@state.de.us "Sheridan Alder" Wrote: | | | -Poster: Sheridan Alder | | Hello everyone: | | A late contribution to "riding sidesaddle": | | I was skimming through some old "Antiques" magazines, when | I | came across the following reproduction in an ad for an art | gallery: | | William Tyler Ranney (1813-1857) | "The Pioneers", c. 1857 | Oil on canvas | | A woman in a blue bonnet and gown, with a white | neckkerchief, | rides a stocky dapple grey horse side-saddle, while a | bearded | man strides alongside the oxen drawing the covered wagon. | | I'd also like to make a plug for "Antiques" (ISSN | 0161-9284) as a | source for costume information. I don't remember anyone | ever | mentioning it, but I always find something to clip and | file. I have no | association with them - my husband and I are hopelessly | addicted "antiquers", and I usually pick up old ones from | dealers | or at shows for a dollar. Any decent magazine store will | stock them, | but they're a little pricey new. There's almost always | something useful | in them, whether it's a colour reproduction of an | eighteenth century | portrait in "New Museum Acquisitions" or a early | nineteenth century | folk art portrait in a ad for a gallery or antique dealer. | They | frequently | feature early American paintings (lots o' portraits! - saw | a c. 1769 | lady in a bright pink-red gown that took me aback) in | various museum | and gallery collections. There's the occasional article on | costume, | textiles, | needlework and fans. | | Unlike most magazines, some of the best stuff can be found | in the ads. | I'd be careful of some of the dating given by dealers | though; their | dates | seem "off" sometimes. Most of the articles featured are | high-end and way | | out my league (my bank account can't carry Georgian silver | or | "important" | Boston furniture), but "Antiques" is worth having a look | at. | | Sheridan Alder | | | | __________________________________________________________ | _______ | To leave this mailing list, send mail to | majordomo@indra.com | with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME | _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Carolyn Kayta Barrows Date: Mon, 01 Mar 1999 18:03:03 -0800 Subject: H-COST: 'early 1800's' cloth from saree stores - -Poster: Carolyn Kayta Barrows I was replying to someone on another list, and thought someone on this one might like the following: Saree stores are the perfect place for finding non-European-looking silk and fake silk. Silk sarees are very inexpensive, compared to most other silk yardage, and some have woven-with-metal-thread borders. When in saree stores, or their flea market equivalent, look for the thin cotton used for turbans. This stuff is 100% cotton thin enough for English Regency and only $2/yd! (in N. CA). It comes in about ten different solid colours including white, off-white, and black. Sometimes you can find spot-patterned cotton muslin too (and thinner than you can find it anywhere else). You might also find Kashmir shawls in wool or acrylic, woven or embroidered, and trim with real metal threads in it. Kayta ////.\\\ ////-@@\\\ (((( 7 ((( | -- )))) * ) ((((( /----\ /---\ _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Carolyn Kayta Barrows Date: Mon, 01 Mar 1999 18:45:16 -0800 Subject: H-COST: photos of a female field hands in corsets - -Poster: Carolyn Kayta Barrows >MY QUESTION: Are these house slaves or field hands? I've never seen a photo >of a female field hand in a corset, Some men probably know a lot about the corsets themselves, but as the proud owner of a complete set of female anatomy I know a little bit about what goes into corsets and how they behave once I get them there. So I looked in a book of historic photos I have (American Album, from the editors of American Heritage magazine, ISBN 345-011892-3-395), because it has two pictures of female black field hands from corset-wearing periods in it. One shows a woman bending over to pick cotton. While the picture is indistinct I believe her to be wearing something for support under her dress, the bodice of which is not tight enough to provide the support she is seen to have. If she wasn't corseted the dress would show evidence of doing the work of a corset when the wearer was in that position, and it doesn't. The other shows a woman in a loose blouse, but judging from her relative size and position I think she is corseted even tho that garment doesn't show thru the blouse. She can't be wearing much of one, as her shape is still rounded, but I think it's there. That's two votes in favour of corseted black female field hands, from a sample of two... Kayta ////.\\\ ////-@@\\\ (((( 7 ((( | -- )))) * ) ((((( /----\ /---\ _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "David W. Rickman" Date: Mon, 8 Mar 99 11:23:20 EST Subject: re: Re: H-COST: Cross scarves, c. 1820-1850? - -Poster: "David W. Rickman" Hello, I have done research in the clothing worn in the Spanish/Mexican Southwest and California in the 18th and early 19th centuries. What one finds here is that women as a whole never wore any foundation garments at all. Working class women wore only a petticoat and chemise, along with a reboso. But middle and upper class women wore the Euro/American fashions of their day, with the noteworthy exception that they were cut somewhat looser through the bodice and, again, worn without any foundation garment. They did, however, sometimes wear a fichu, perhaps for modesty's sake, and there is some evidence that while riding horseback, they employed the cross cloth. The German artist, Carlos Nebel, shows an upper class Mexican woman on horseback wearing the cross cloth in the 1830's, and the Swedish author and artist, Waseurtz af Sandels, drew a Californio horsewoman in 1845 wearing a tightly-drawn cross cloth while standing next to her horse. For those who know this drawing and find it difficult to interpret the details, I adapted this drawing for the Californio horsewoman I show in my "Cowboys of the Old West" coloring book for Dover Publications. The point of all this, I suppose, is to show that it was possible to wear 19th century women's fashions comfortably without any foundation if your particular society (here Mexican American) never adopted them and that in a really vigorous pursuit, such as horseback riding, these ladies found the cross cloth helpful. David drickman@state.de.us p.s. Does anyone know what I might have done wrong in trying to remove myself from the daily list and switch to the digest? I now get not only every message posted, when they are posted, but the digest as well. Please advise. "Bill and/or Glenna Jo Christen" Wrote: | | | -Poster: Bill and/or Glenna Jo Christen | | | Poster: | | > In the late 18th C, a little after the American | Revolution, I see | > larger kerchiefs worn. One style is to start with the | point in back | (as | > usual), cross the ends in front, and tie them in the | back just above | the | > waist. Illustrations I've seen have been with the | fashionable figure | > (wearing stays). I haven't tried this myself, but I | wonder if crossing | | > the kerchief & tying it in back would give some support | without stays? | | I have tried this and unless they had some other method of | tying the | scarf than what it appears to be, you would have far too | much pressure | from the scarf being pulled behind the neck to give any | bust or waist | support. It appears to me to be purely decorative, as well | as adding a | modicum of modesty to lower cut bodices of the era. | As I had to portray a mixed blood woman when I did fur | trade, I didn't | wear stays or modern support garments and even with my | modest | 'endowments', I was glad to return to modern bras if I | engaged in any | particularly vigorous activity like running, etc. Of | course, if I'd | never worn a bra I may have been used to that feeling. | (I'd also | probably look like the 'Playboy Granny' by now too. ;->) | | Just my $.02 worth... | | Glenna Jo Christen | gwjchris@rust.net | Visit our web site, "The Curiosity Shop" | http://www.rust.net/~gwjchris/ | | | | __________________________________________________________ | _______ | To leave this mailing list, send mail to | majordomo@indra.com | with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME | _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "David W. Rickman" Date: Mon, 8 Mar 99 12:16:31 EST Subject: H-COST: Corsetry - -Poster: "David W. Rickman" Hello, As many of you might have guessed, I have not signed off but, at the kind suggestion of several list members, have tried to switch to the digest. This has not worked so far. Now I get every message as they are posted, _and_ I get the digest as well. So it was that I just saw the message posted by Katya on female field hands wearing corsets. I haven't had a chance to look at these photos, but from the description they do sound interesting, though not conclusive. But I'll wait till I see them. Be that as it may, I feel that perhaps I should make one last comment on the whole corset and stays question and then hope that whoever wants to continue this topic will contact me off-line where we will not overload the H-costume list with what appears to me to be rather small beer. I have been surprised by a few aspects of this discussion. The first is the assumption of some that one must be female to understand corsetry. I really don't understand this. True, I have never experienced personally what it is like to be a woman going about the daily chores unsupported by foundation garments. But I can talk to those have and hear from them that it is uncomfortable. But to suggest that I cannot comment on corsets unless I am a woman seems a bit extreme. After all, what does it matter? We are dealing here with matters of historical evidence. As I wrote earlier, as an historian, I need evidence that an article of dress actually was worn rather than arguments, convincing though they may be, that it should have been worn. And what do those arguments, so far, add up to? That foundations should have been worn because it is uncomfortable for a woman to go unsupported. That may be, but how have women done so around the world and from Australopithecus' time to the present day? Simple, they were raised to it. Another thing that has been said is that my arguments are chronocentric (reasoning from my own time and experience and projecting that onto the past). Isn't the shoe on the wrong foot here? I have been saying that we cannot assume that women in the past must have worn foundations simply because we like to be supported today. Thus when I read "Remember we are trying to avoid 20th century applications of mores here. Have you tried wearing 1840s clothing - --specifically a work dress-- without any sort of support?" I wonder if I am the only one who notices that the statement doubles back on itself and does exactly what the author is warning against? And finally, while I have been trying to carefully support my conclusions by citing the sources, including bibliographical material, and sticking closely to primary evidence, I have seen little or nothing of careful documentation in the argument to the contrary. And yet, I am faulted for poor scholarship. So, in the interests of keeping this site a pleasant place to visit, I hope we will drop the discussion of this topic until someone sends me some tangible evidence to consider - written or visual sources that actually show rural, working women prior to 1850 wearing supports. Should these come up, then by all means post them to H-costume and I will respond to them publicly. If they are conclusive, I will be happy to admit my error and have my knowlege added to - for that is what history is all about. Until then, all gender-based comments on my unsuitability to investigate this topic, and messages pointing out that I am chronocentric or a poor scholar can just as easily be sent to me directly. Thanks. David drickman@state.de.us _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ End of h-costume-digest V4 #204 ******************************* _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME-DIGEST From ???@??? Tue Mar 09 05:29:27 1999 Received: from mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE (mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE [130.149.4.16]) by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA02353 for ; Tue, 9 Mar 1999 05:22:36 +0100 (MET) Received: from mail.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.15]) by mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10KE2M-0002PH-01; Tue, 9 Mar 1999 05:22:34 +0100 Received: from coal.bg.tu-berlin.de by mail.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Tue, 9 Mar 1999 05:22:21 +0100 Received: from mail.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.15]) by mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10KE26-0002P8-00; Tue, 9 Mar 1999 05:22:18 +0100 Received: from tubkom.prz.tu-berlin.de by mail.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Tue, 9 Mar 1999 05:22:10 +0100 Received: from mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE (mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE [130.149.4.16]) by tubkom.prz.tu-berlin.de (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id FAA19364 for ; Tue, 9 Mar 1999 05:20:50 +0100 (MEZ) Received: from mail.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.15]) by mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10KE1r-0002P4-00; Tue, 9 Mar 1999 05:22:03 +0100 Received: from server.indra.com by mail.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Tue, 9 Mar 1999 05:21:53 +0100 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.8.5/) with ESMTP id VAA04582; Mon, 8 Mar 1999 21:41:27 -0700 (MST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id VAA05174 for h-costume-digest-outgoing; Mon, 8 Mar 1999 21:20:29 -0700 (MST) Date: Mon, 8 Mar 1999 21:20:29 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199903090420.VAA05174@indra.com> From: owner-h-costume-digest@indra.com To: h-costume-digest@indra.com Subject: h-costume-digest V4 #205 Reply-To: h-costume-digest@indra.com Errors-To: owner-h-costume-digest@indra.com Precedence: bulk h-costume-digest Monday, 8 March 1999 Volume 04 : Number 205 In this issue: Re: H-COST: Corsetry H-COST: Silk Batting RE: H-COST: 'early 1800's' cloth from saree stores H-COST: Stay and Corset Research Re: H-COST: H-cost: Bonnet supplier? Re: H-COST: photos of a female field hands in corsets Re: H-COST: photos of a female field hands in corsets H-COST: African American women field hands H-COST: African American women in corsets H-COST: Fiber testing Re: H-COST: Fiber testing H-COST: Weaving Terms Re: H-COST: Fiber testing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Lavolta Press Date: Mon, 08 Mar 1999 11:07:15 -0800 Subject: Re: H-COST: Corsetry - -Poster: Lavolta Press > I > Another thing that has been said is that my arguments are chronocentric > (reasoning from my own time and experience and projecting that onto the past). > Isn't the shoe on the wrong foot here? I have been saying that we cannot > assume that women in the past must have worn foundations simply because we > like to be supported today. Thus when I read "Remember we are trying to avoid > 20th century applications of mores here. Have you tried wearing 1840s clothing > --specifically a work dress-- without any sort of support?" I wonder if I am > the only one who notices that the statement doubles back on itself and does > exactly what the author is warning against? > > Without commenting on David Rickman's book (I don't know him and have never seen his book; though I should probably look for it) or 1840s corsetry (part of the issue to me is what is a corset?; they are not all heavily boned) I'd like to respond to this statement. Making and wearing period style clothing does lead to interesting insights. However, I myself have been feeling the tendency to extrapolate from modern to historic periods has sometimes been taken too far. For example, in past discussions on this list we've heard from people who feel heavily boned corsets or longline bras are far more comfortable than modern sports bras--and vice versa. We've heard from people who prefer low-heeled, wide-toed shoes to pointy-toed spike heels--and vice versa. In other words, peoples' ideas of physical and psychological comfort vary. Even with modern clothing, no one could accurately say, "I can't stand wearing a longlined bra so no one else can either." This is also ignoring the fact that many fashions and customs have nothing to do with comfort or practicality. People wear certain clothes to show they belong to (or aspire to) certain social classes, professions, ethnic groups, subcultures, age groups, etc.; or because society (or a small segment such as the company they work for) expects (or requires) them to; or to show they are in touch with the latest trends; or because these clothes are the only ones available to them; and many other reasons. So, my feeling is, if you wear an Elizabethan corset every day, either for reenactment or as an experiment, or you don't wash your hair for a year, and such like, you've reaffirmed that this is possible and you've discovered how it feels to you. But I'm not sure you've discovered that much about the historic period in question. It is more reliable to research what people actually did. Fran Grimble _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Hope H. Dunlap" Date: Mon, 8 Mar 1999 14:19:12 -0500 Subject: H-COST: Silk Batting - -Poster: "Hope H. Dunlap" Here's the silk batting source: Mulberry Silk & Things P. O. Box 1550 or 150 (My material from the company uses both) Rocheport, Missouri 65279 e-mail silk batt@aol.com (the way this is formatted seems strange with the space in it, but this is how it is shown in their literature) Telephone: (573) 698 2102 Fax: (573) 698 2102 This info is a few years old, i hope it works for you. Hope H. Dunlap _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Hope H. Dunlap" Date: Mon, 8 Mar 1999 14:28:59 -0500 Subject: RE: H-COST: 'early 1800's' cloth from saree stores - -Poster: "Hope H. Dunlap" You can see saris for sale on the Web, too. Type "Indian+Sari" or "Indian+Clothing" into http://www.metacrawler.com to get a list of Indian Web-based vendors. The typical size is 45"wide and 6 yards long, a nice dress length, and the fabrics can be just incredible, not only for costume, but for contemporary silk evening wear. There is a very wide price range, but even the highest I've seen is quite fair, especially when compared to anything similar you might find here. Hope H. Dunlap - -----Original Message----- From: owner-h-costume@indra.com [mailto:owner-h-costume@indra.com]On Behalf Of Carolyn Kayta Barrows Sent: Monday, March 01, 1999 9:03 PM To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: H-COST: 'early 1800's' cloth from saree stores - -Poster: Carolyn Kayta Barrows I was replying to someone on another list, and thought someone on this one might like the following: Saree stores are the perfect place for finding non-European-looking silk and fake silk. Silk sarees are very inexpensive, compared to most other silk yardage, and some have woven-with-metal-thread borders. When in saree stores, or their flea market equivalent, look for the thin cotton used for turbans. This stuff is 100% cotton thin enough for English Regency and only $2/yd! (in N. CA). It comes in about ten different solid colours including white, off-white, and black. Sometimes you can find spot-patterned cotton muslin too (and thinner than you can find it anywhere else). You might also find Kashmir shawls in wool or acrylic, woven or embroidered, and trim with real metal threads in it. Kayta ////.\\\ ////-@@\\\ (((( 7 ((( | -- )))) * ) ((((( /----\ /---\ ____________________________________________________________ _____ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: SAQUEEN@aol.com Date: Mon, 8 Mar 1999 14:35:20 EST Subject: H-COST: Stay and Corset Research - -Poster: SAQUEEN@aol.com Dear All, The current thread of corsetry is interesting and thought you would want to know about an upcoming research opportunity. Thought some of you might be interested in applying: "From Stays to Corsets, Changing Shape of Copp Family Women, 1775 - 1820 At the end of the 18th century, women's fashionable figures changed. Why did fashion change in this way? How did this change come about? What did individuals do to adapt to these changes? These are some of the questions Claudia Brush Kidwell is addressing in her latest research project utilizing the exceptional Smithsonian collections of Copp family materials from Stonington, Connecticut. Participants in the Team Research Project will receive unique training and research opportunities working with Kidwell to explore primary documentation including garments in the collection, fashion magazines, libraries, diaries, and novels. The training will take place in the National Museum of American History and the Library of Congress. Team Leader: Claudia Brush Kidwell, curator of costume collection, National Museum of American History, Smithsonian Institution Team Coordinator: Sally Queen Research Dates: July 11 - 17, 1999 Where: Washington DC Research Team: 4 - 6 participants Deadline for Application: March 25, 1999 For detailed packet and application forms, please send snail mail address with $10.00 to American History Research Expedition, 2801 S. Joyce Street, Arlington, Virginia 22202." If you have additional questions, you may email me at saqueen@aol.com Sally Queen http://www.sallyqueenassociates.com _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Janice Dallas Date: Mon, 08 Mar 1999 14:55:08 -0500 Subject: Re: H-COST: H-cost: Bonnet supplier? - -Poster: Janice Dallas Enhancements Costume Supply has both. Their catalog is $3. Address is P.O. Box 8604, Anaheim, CA 92812-0604. Fax is 714-638-4545. Visa and MC accepted. No, I don't work for them, just have seen their stuff at various West Coast costume conventions/colleges. Margo Anderson wrote: > > -Poster: Margo Anderson > > I'm looking for a source for pre-made buckram frames for 1850's bonnets. > Untrimmed straw ones would be nice, too. > > Margo Anderson > > _________________________________________________________________ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Susannah Eanes" Date: Mon, 08 Mar 1999 11:58:06 PST Subject: Re: H-COST: photos of a female field hands in corsets - -Poster: "Susannah Eanes" Thank you!! The Charleston Museum also shows in one of their exhibits on slavery, a large reproduction photo of a group of black women in the 1840s beating rice to separate it from the hulls. Strenuous, backbreaking work. Guess what? Not only do we see strong evidence that they are wearing some sort of sensible stays (NOT fashionably boned stays), but have you ever been near Charleston in the summer? Hot and humid is not the word. It can be stifling. These women are strong, erect, and are working vigorously. Their carriage and silhouette show strong evidence, such as no droop, no distortion, or funny bulges and wrinkles in the clothing such as we see in women today who try to wear farm dresses without such stays. Amen to Carolyn's comment on female anatomy. To some of us, the pain involved in performing work with our anatomy unconfined would be akin to a long-distance runner working without an athletic supporter. Ouch! > > >-Poster: Carolyn Kayta Barrows > >>MY QUESTION: Are these house slaves or field hands? I've never seen a photo >>of a female field hand in a corset, > >Some men probably know a lot about the corsets themselves, but as the proud >owner of a complete set of female anatomy I know a little bit about what >goes into corsets and how they behave once I get them there. So I looked >in a book of historic photos I have (American Album, from the editors of >American Heritage magazine, ISBN 345-011892-3-395), because it has two >pictures of female black field hands from corset-wearing periods in it. > >One shows a woman bending over to pick cotton. While the picture is >indistinct I believe her to be wearing something for support under her >dress, the bodice of which is not tight enough to provide the support she >is seen to have. If she wasn't corseted the dress would show evidence of >doing the work of a corset when the wearer was in that position, and it >doesn't. The other shows a woman in a loose blouse, but judging from her >relative size and position I think she is corseted even tho that garment >doesn't show thru the blouse. She can't be wearing much of one, as her >shape is still rounded, but I think it's there. > >That's two votes in favour of corseted black female field hands, from a >sample of two... > > >Kayta > ////.\\\ > ////-@@\\\ > (((( 7 ((( > | -- )))) > * ) ((((( > /----\ /---\ > > _________________________________________________________________ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: MzScahlett@aol.com Date: Mon, 8 Mar 1999 15:02:19 EST Subject: Re: H-COST: photos of a female field hands in corsets - -Poster: MzScahlett@aol.com In a message dated 3/8/1999 09:04:19 Pacific Standard Time, kayta@slip.net writes: << >MY QUESTION: Are these house slaves or field hands? I've never seen a photo >of a female field hand in a corset, Some men probably know a lot about the corsets themselves, but as the proud owner of a complete set of female anatomy I know a little bit about what goes into corsets and how they behave once I get them there. >> This is amazing. I made this statement, NOT Mr. Rickman and I've got a complete set of female anatomy (or did until my recent hysterectomy). I'd like to know what that has to do with anything at all. Can we keep this about the history, please? I'd like to see the photos you reference. angil + + + + + + + Angela F. Lazear Costumes & Custom Clothing "Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds" A. Einstein _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "David W. Rickman" Date: Mon, 8 Mar 99 14:47:25 EST Subject: H-COST: African American women field hands - -Poster: "David W. Rickman" Hello, Regarding Katya's post about African American women field hands in corsets, over lunch I had a chance to look at the book she recommended (American Album, by American Heritage Press) and I am afraid I do not see the corsets on these women. The one photo of the teenage girl is inconclusive because of her age, but I would say that she is not corseted. The other photo of women bending over to pick cotton is much too hard to read for any signs of corseting. But I did look at Ken Burn's book "The Civil War" and on pp. 12-13 there is a photograph of male and female slaves posed in front of what I take to be their quarters. Here there is no sign of corsety, in my opinion, and fairly clear evidence that some of the women are definitely not corseted. Dated to 1862, this photo of slaves is earlier than that of the field hands in American Album, one of which is from the Cook Collection, some of whose photos date to 1896. Since my book is about clothing in 1845, the earlier the example, the better. My thanks to Katya for including her source in her message. It really helps. David drickman@state.de.us _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "David W. Rickman" Date: Mon, 8 Mar 99 14:59:20 EST Subject: H-COST: African American women in corsets - -Poster: "David W. Rickman" Hello, Regarding Katya's post about African American women field hands in corsets, over lunch I had a chance to look at the book she recommended (American Album, by American Heritage Press) and I am afraid I do not see the corsets on these women. The one photo of the teenage girl is inconclusive because of her age, but I would say that she is not corseted. The other photo of women bending over to pick cotton is much too hard to read for any signs of corseting. But I did look at Ken Burn's book "The Civil War" and on pp. 12-13 there is a photograph of male and female slaves posed in front of what I take to be their quarters. Here there is no sign of corsety, in my opinion, and fairly clear evidence that some of the women are definitely not corseted. Dated to 1862, this photo of slaves is earlier than that of the field hands in American Album, one of which is from the Cook Collection, some of whose photos date to 1896. Since my book is about clothing in 1845, the earlier the example, the better. My thanks to Katya for including her source in her message. It really helps. David drickman@state.de.us _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Sylvia Rognstad Date: Mon, 8 Mar 1999 15:12:48 -0700 (MST) Subject: H-COST: Fiber testing - -Poster: Sylvia Rognstad Does anyone know how to tell if a fiber is poylester or nylon? Whenever I've done a burn test, I can't tell the difference. Sylvia R Divinity Designs http://www.d-e-designs.com/divinity/ 515 Manhattan Drive, #203 sylvia@netherworld.com Boulder, CO 80303 USA complete catalog on website _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Merouda of Bornover Date: Mon, 08 Mar 1999 14:42:23 -0800 Subject: Re: H-COST: Fiber testing - -Poster: Merouda of Bornover > Does anyone know how to tell if a fiber is poylester or nylon? Whenever > I've done a burn test, I can't tell the difference. So you mean a test to tell the difference between the two? I only know that they both melt. Cynthia - -- Cynthia Long Merouda of Bornover Barony of Madrone Kingdom of An Tir _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Carol J. Bell Cannon" Date: Mon, 08 Mar 1999 19:47:53 -0800 Subject: H-COST: Weaving Terms - -Poster: "Carol J. Bell Cannon" Would the party who wrote on behalf of : snicker@pinkpig.co please contact me at: cjcannon@greymists.com I have a msg. to fwd. to him/her from one who does weave. Her msg. to the snicker address above bounced. Thank you all, sorry for the bandw. use--Carol _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: The Mulders Date: Mon, 08 Mar 1999 22:25:40 -0600 Subject: Re: H-COST: Fiber testing - -Poster: The Mulders When the burn test is done on both they have similar ash and burn patterns. However Nylon makes a hard gray bead and smells like celery. Polyester has black smoke, hard black bead and a smell that is sweetish. There are some other tests but the burn test works the best for a quickie me. Hope that helps. Ninya Sylvia Rognstad wrote: > -Poster: Sylvia Rognstad > > Does anyone know how to tell if a fiber is poylester or nylon? Whenever > I've done a burn test, I can't tell the difference. > Sylvia R > > Divinity Designs http://www.d-e-designs.com/divinity/ > 515 Manhattan Drive, #203 sylvia@netherworld.com > Boulder, CO 80303 USA complete catalog on website > > _________________________________________________________________ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ End of h-costume-digest V4 #205 ******************************* _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME-DIGEST From ???@??? Wed Mar 10 10:12:14 1999 Received: from mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE (mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE [130.149.4.16]) by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA10151 for ; Tue, 9 Mar 1999 19:25:11 +0100 (MET) Received: from mail.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.15]) by mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10KRBk-0003Jk-00; Tue, 9 Mar 1999 19:25:08 +0100 Received: from coal.bg.tu-berlin.de by mail.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Tue, 9 Mar 1999 19:25:06 +0100 Received: from mail.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.15]) by mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10KRBe-0003J8-01; Tue, 9 Mar 1999 19:25:02 +0100 Received: from tubkom.prz.tu-berlin.de by mail.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Tue, 9 Mar 1999 19:24:49 +0100 Received: from mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE (mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE [130.149.4.16]) by tubkom.prz.tu-berlin.de (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA25542 for ; Tue, 9 Mar 1999 19:23:29 +0100 (MEZ) Received: from mail.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.15]) by mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10KRBO-0003Hy-01; Tue, 9 Mar 1999 19:24:46 +0100 Received: from server.indra.com by mail.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Tue, 9 Mar 1999 19:24:30 +0100 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.8.5/) with ESMTP id LAA24733; Tue, 9 Mar 1999 11:44:38 -0700 (MST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id LAA25532 for h-costume-digest-outgoing; Tue, 9 Mar 1999 11:22:51 -0700 (MST) Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 11:22:51 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199903091822.LAA25532@indra.com> From: owner-h-costume-digest@indra.com To: h-costume-digest@indra.com Subject: h-costume-digest V4 #206 Reply-To: h-costume-digest@indra.com Errors-To: owner-h-costume-digest@indra.com Precedence: bulk h-costume-digest Tuesday, 9 March 1999 Volume 04 : Number 206 In this issue: Re: H-COST: Diana's dresses H-COST: Fibre testing H-COST: Re: Fiber testing H-COST: Elizabethan partlets (& modern equivalents!) Re: H-COST: Fibre testing Re: H-COST: Re: Fiber testing Re: H-COST: Weaving Terms H-COST: British Infantry uniforms Re: H-COST: Re: Fiber testing Re: H-COST: Fibre testing Re: H-COST: Re: Fiber testing RE: H-COST: Re: Fiber testing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Penny E. Ladnier" Date: Mon, 8 Mar 1999 23:26:47 -0500 Subject: Re: H-COST: Diana's dresses - -Poster: "Penny E. Ladnier" This is not the exhibit I worked on. This exhibit is mainly the collection of the lady from Tampa who purchased 13 gowns from the auction. I have heard she has purchased a couple more gowns. The Dresses for Humanity website is at http://www.princessdigowns.com/ . It has excellent images of the gowns. The exhibit I worked on was a benefit with seven Di gowns owned by five different ladies. You may find this website at http://www.costumegallery.com/Princess_Di/teaparty.html . I am sorry but with all the rush at the time, I forgot to tell you all what happened at the next benefit. Last November, I worked again as a dresser for another Princess Tea Party in Charlottesville, VA. This time only the Richmond gown was shown, but Emanuel was the featured guest at the party. I got to meet him and have a 30-minute private conversation with him. (Yes, I told him all about this list.) He told me about how he and Elizabeth got their start in the business. He is such a gentleman. Last July, Elizabeth visited The Costume Gallery Website and wrote me an email. She was very pleased with the presentation of their gown on the Tea Party Webpages. We have been occasionally corresponding. About a month ago, Elizabeth said she is opening a shop in London soon and is planning to present a line for the catwalks in the Fall. So now, you have heard the industry scoop. The owner of the Richmond gown has been in Palm Springs for the winter. She will be back in April. I look forward to playing with the gown again soon. I love fluffing that skirt! Its like having a life size Barbie with real designer clothes. Later...Penny http://www.costumegallery.com >Just found out a couple of weeks ago that the exhibit: Dresses for >Humanity: Dresses of Diana, Princess of Wales will be coming to Omaha NE >from April 11 ot May 16. Penny, is this the exhibit you worked on? We are >planning to go see it some time while it is here. > >Pierre and Sandy > > _________________________________________________________________ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Melanie Wilson Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 02:31:07 -0500 Subject: H-COST: Fibre testing - -Poster: Melanie Wilson Depends a lot on which types you are testing for Nylon 6,6 or Nylon 6 and= what type of polyester. Both Nylon & Polyester can be seen a generic term= s rather than specifics. That said the following generally applies: 1) Nylon will absorb water more readily than polyester 2) Nylon will dye easier than polyester . With disperse dyes. 3) Nylon has high rub resistance (nylon webbing and the like) 4) Nylon melts with fusion & does not smolder. Polyester burns & melts Hope that helps Why do you need to know BTW ? For most purposes it would seem irrelevant = ? Mel _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Dietmar Date: Mon, 08 Mar 1999 17:01:24 +0000 Subject: H-COST: Re: Fiber testing - -Poster: Dietmar Sylvia R asked: > Does anyone know how to tell if a fiber is poylester or nylon? > Whenever I've done a burn test, I can't tell the difference. Well, it's not much help unless you come shopping with me, but I'm not allergic to Nylon. I am, however, allergic to all other manmade fibers. (I haven't seriously tested Rayon yet.) Contact causes redness, itching and swelling. I have a list of burn tests. If there is sufficient interest, I will get permission to repost it here. It contains the following: ________________ Nylon Burns or melts? melts&burns Retreats from flame? yes Smell? celery or vegetable smell Residue? hard cream-and-coffee color bead Misc? flames come from finish, drops of melted nylon may fall from swatch ________________ Polyester Burns or melts? melts&burns Retreats from flame? yes Smell? icky sweet chemical smell Residue? hard creamy color bead, may be dark if burnt for awhile Misc? black smoke, melting polyester drips ________________ Good luck, Dietmar "Victory or Defeat rests in God's hands; over Honor, we ourselves are Lord and Master." _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Teddy Date: Tue, 09 Mar 1999 10:24:27 +0000 (GMT) Subject: H-COST: Elizabethan partlets (& modern equivalents!) - -Poster: Teddy **********LONG posting warning!********* (I seem to have rambled on a bit once I started typing this) > - -Poster: Danielle Nunn > > Well, unfortunately we have no proof either way. There are many > depictions of Ladies wearing a low square-necked smock and > something either partlet or second smock over it. For examples, > look at the front and back covers of QE's Wardrobe. The picture on > the front cover "The Pelican Portrait" I think lends credence to > the concept of two layers. Notice how the blackwork pattern in the > upper area of the partlet/smock (neckline) matches the blackwork > pattern in the sleeves. This leads me to believe in the strong > possiblity that it is a single garment, i.e. smock. I'd agree with that *mostly*. It seems sensible to me that this is the case but (as with many of these things it may be that *both* were done. Some of the extant high-necked garments could have been worn under the corset and/or other the corset depending on the wearer's preference and the effect they were trying to create. Personally, I see the horisontal line of "something" and trim showing behind the neckline of the bodice as the edge of the smock/under- corset-garment. Sometines you can also see signs of it following the neckline up the sides towards the shoulders (sorry, I can't quote sources as I'm writing this at work and don't have the necessary books to hand). As for the high necked agrment worn over that but under the bodice. It could equally easily be a partlet (with or without matching sleeves) or a shirt-like garment, again depending on the individual's preference. > The problem with this is, I've never seen any evidence for partlet and > sleeve sets. I've never seen any extant ones or any mention of them in > wardrobe accounts, wills, or period writings like Stubbes, "The Fair > Perfectioning of Ladies," etc... If I remember correctly, Arnold makes no > mention of them in her "Shirts..." article either. Danielle, you have QEWU - right? I don't have it so can't check but I'm pretty sure theres a mention in there (towards the back, I think) of a record that talks about Elizabeth having or being given a knitted partlet and (matching) set of sleeves....? > To me, the partlet with sleeves seems like another one of those > insidious costuming myths. Besides which, how does a partlet with > sleeves differ, in terms of the number of layers worn, from a > second smock? Your still talking about two sets of sleeves. But not necessarily connected to each other. Seperate pieces that could be worn seperately or together, with the sleeves pinned/tied/tacked/fastened into the armhole/upper sleeve of the dress and the partlet tucked/fastened into the neckline, less bulk *in* the armhole and under the arm where the shift sleeve would alrerady be between the garment and the skin. Another thought - the shift sleeve may have been *short* and the sleeves-tha-match-the-partlet be pinned/attached to them? OR, the fancy/decorated/more difficult to clean sleeves may have *neede* the protection of a layer of shift-sleeve between them and the skin of the arm.... (Wild generalization here!!) People in those times were not used to having their arms exposed, any more than their bodies so multiple layered sleeves may not have even been something they considered any more than the same/similar number of multiple layers on their bodies...? To me, a shirt like garment seems easier/quicker to put on than all that tucking in of partlet and pinning in of seperate sleeves business, but that again may not have been a consideration at the time, or may have been something that was decided by the individula concerned, their preferences/comfort factor/circumstances etc. Until something that proves that one way or the other was/wasn't done comes to light (if it ever does) all we can do is either assume that both may have been done, or go with the version that we each find the best for ourselves. Or perhaps I'm just waffling on too much... Teddy _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Sylvia Rognstad Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 08:43:49 -0700 (MST) Subject: Re: H-COST: Fibre testing - -Poster: Sylvia Rognstad > > -Poster: Melanie Wilson > > Depends a lot on which types you are testing for Nylon 6,6 or Nylon 6 and > what type of polyester. Both Nylon & Polyester can be seen a generic terms > rather than specifics. That said the following generally applies: > > 1) Nylon will absorb water more readily than polyester > > 2) Nylon will dye easier than polyester . With disperse dyes. > > 3) Nylon has high rub resistance (nylon webbing and the like) > > 4) Nylon melts with fusion & does not smolder. Polyester burns & melts > > Hope that helps > > Why do you need to know BTW ? For most purposes it would seem irrelevant ? > > Mel I'm maKing garments for sale and legally, they have to be labeled properly. The fabric in question is actually a lycra/? combo. To rule out acetate, I put some in acetone and it dissolved almost completely. Since I dont think that either poly or nylon dissolve in acetone, I gather that this fabric must have been mislabeled. Anyone concur? Sylvia R _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Michel McCabe Date: Tue, 09 Mar 1999 11:05:20 -0500 Subject: Re: H-COST: Re: Fiber testing - -Poster: Michel McCabe At 05:01 PM 3/8/99 +0000, you wrote: > >-Poster: Dietmar > >Sylvia R asked: > >> Does anyone know how to tell if a fiber is poylester or nylon? >> Whenever I've done a burn test, I can't tell the difference. > According to the March 99 Thread Issue #81 - Fabric lovers always carry a flame - The primary difference seems to be the odor, Nylon is supposed to be Celery an the Poly is chemical. _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Michel McCabe Date: Tue, 09 Mar 1999 11:21:04 -0500 Subject: Re: H-COST: Weaving Terms - -Poster: Michel McCabe A > Would the party who wrote on behalf of : snicker@pinkpig.co You have left off the M at the end of the address try: snicker@pinkpig.com _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Hulett Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 08:41:05 -0800 Subject: H-COST: British Infantry uniforms - -Poster: Hulett Thomas, Well, after an extended search, I finally came up with this. Victoria at the British Film Commission suggested you call 'Angels and Vermin' at 011 44 171 387 0999. This company is responsible for letting to the film industry in London, similar to our Western Costume Co. here in LA. I'm still waiting to hear from LACMA, will call them tommorrow, though I really doubt there will be any info. Napolean magazine has become a miniature mag and no longer has reenactment ads. The one from a few years ago has 'gone into the ether' and I'm afraid will be of no help. When you call Angels and Vermin, see if they know what Saville row tailor makes british uniforms. I know there is one and find in maddening that I can't find the name. I have phone numbers from many of the places I called, so, if you want them drop me a line and I'll digg up my notes. Sorry I couldn't be of more help. The general consesus is that there is so much extant material that there's no reason to have published patterns. Well, no reason for those with money. Cheers, jd mhull@earthlink.net _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Lynn Downward Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 08:44:41 -0800 Subject: Re: H-COST: Re: Fiber testing - -Poster: Lynn Downward >-Poster: Dietmar > >Sylvia R asked: > >> Does anyone know how to tell if a fiber is poylester or nylon? >> Whenever I've done a burn test, I can't tell the difference. > >Well, it's not much help unless you come shopping with me, but I'm not >allergic to Nylon. I am, however, allergic to all other manmade fibers. (I >haven't seriously tested Rayon yet.) Contact causes redness, itching and >swelling. > >I have a list of burn tests. If there is sufficient interest, I will get >permission to repost it here. It contains the following: > > >Good luck, > >Dietmar > Dear Dietmar, Sorry for the allergies. It would, indeed, be helpful if you would post your tests here on the list. There's one vote! LynnD _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: The Mulders Date: Tue, 09 Mar 1999 11:10:53 -0600 Subject: Re: H-COST: Fibre testing - -Poster: The Mulders You are right! Both diacetate and triacetate will dissolve in acetone. None of the other textile fibers will. Testing for a combo is harder. You will have to separate out fibers. A microscope helps! Good day! Ninya Sylvia Rognstad wrote: > -Poster: Sylvia Rognstad > > > > > -Poster: Melanie Wilson > > > > Depends a lot on which types you are testing for Nylon 6,6 or Nylon 6 and > > what type of polyester. Both Nylon & Polyester can be seen a generic terms > > rather than specifics. That said the following generally applies: > > > > 1) Nylon will absorb water more readily than polyester > > > > 2) Nylon will dye easier than polyester . With disperse dyes. > > > > 3) Nylon has high rub resistance (nylon webbing and the like) > > > > 4) Nylon melts with fusion & does not smolder. Polyester burns & melts > > > > Hope that helps > > > > Why do you need to know BTW ? For most purposes it would seem irrelevant ? > > > > Mel > I'm maKing garments for sale and legally, they have to be labeled > properly. > The fabric in question is actually a lycra/? combo. To rule out acetate, > I put some in acetone and it dissolved almost completely. Since I dont > think that either poly or nylon dissolve in acetone, I gather that this > fabric must have been mislabeled. Anyone concur? > Sylvia R > > _________________________________________________________________ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Parsla Liepa Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 13:02:16 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: H-COST: Re: Fiber testing - -Poster: Parsla Liepa > >> Does anyone know how to tell if a fiber is poylester or nylon? > >> Whenever I've done a burn test, I can't tell the difference. > > > > According to the March 99 Thread Issue #81 - Fabric lovers always carry a > flame - > > The primary difference seems to be the odor, Nylon is supposed to be Celery > an the Poly is chemical. What does celery smell like? Parsla Liepa _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "EPPERSON, SHERYL" Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 12:22:34 -0600 Subject: RE: H-COST: Re: Fiber testing - -Poster: "EPPERSON, SHERYL" If you can get permission to repost it, I would like to see it also. Sheryl Epperson > -----Original Message----- > From: Dietmar [SMTP:dietmar@pacbell.net] > Sent: Monday, March 08, 1999 11:01 AM > To: h-costume@indra.com > Subject: H-COST: Re: Fiber testing >=20 >=20 > -Poster: Dietmar >=20 > Sylvia R asked: >=20 > > Does anyone know how to tell if a fiber is poylester or nylon? > > Whenever I've done a burn test, I can't tell the difference. >=20 > Well, it's not much help unless you come shopping with me, but I'm = not > allergic to Nylon. I am, however, allergic to all other manmade > fibers. (I > haven't seriously tested Rayon yet.) Contact causes redness, itching > and swelling. >=20 > I have a list of burn tests. If there is sufficient interest, I will > get > permission to repost it here. It contains the following: >=20 > ________________ > Nylon > Burns or melts? melts&burns > Retreats from flame? yes > Smell? celery or vegetable smell > Residue? hard cream-and-coffee color bead > Misc? flames come from finish, drops of melted nylon may fall from > swatch > ________________ > Polyester > Burns or melts? melts&burns > Retreats from flame? yes > Smell? icky sweet chemical smell > Residue? hard creamy color bead, may be dark if burnt for awhile > Misc? black smoke, melting polyester drips > ________________ >=20 > Good luck, >=20 > Dietmar >=20 >=20 > "Victory or Defeat rests in God's hands; > over Honor, we ourselves are Lord and Master."=7F >=20 > _________________________________________________________________ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ End of h-costume-digest V4 #206 ******************************* _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME-DIGEST From ???@??? Wed Mar 10 10:12:18 1999 Received: from mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE (mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE [130.149.4.16]) by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA11544 for ; Wed, 10 Mar 1999 01:49:21 +0100 (MET) Received: from mail.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.15]) by mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10KXBX-0005yx-00; Wed, 10 Mar 1999 01:49:19 +0100 Received: from coal.bg.tu-berlin.de by mail.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Wed, 10 Mar 1999 01:49:14 +0100 Received: from mail2.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.14]) by mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10KXBN-0005ym-00; Wed, 10 Mar 1999 01:49:09 +0100 Received: from tubkom.prz.tu-berlin.de by mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Wed, 10 Mar 1999 01:49:05 +0100 Received: from mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE (mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE [130.149.4.16]) by tubkom.prz.tu-berlin.de (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA27923 for ; Wed, 10 Mar 1999 01:47:44 +0100 (MEZ) Received: from mail.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.15]) by mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10KXBA-0005xv-00; Wed, 10 Mar 1999 01:48:56 +0100 Received: from server.indra.com by mail.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Wed, 10 Mar 1999 01:48:52 +0100 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.8.5/) with ESMTP id SAA00650; Tue, 9 Mar 1999 18:09:11 -0700 (MST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id RAA00679 for h-costume-digest-outgoing; Tue, 9 Mar 1999 17:47:28 -0700 (MST) Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 17:47:28 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199903100047.RAA00679@indra.com> From: owner-h-costume-digest@indra.com To: h-costume-digest@indra.com Subject: h-costume-digest V4 #207 Reply-To: h-costume-digest@indra.com Errors-To: owner-h-costume-digest@indra.com Precedence: bulk h-costume-digest Tuesday, 9 March 1999 Volume 04 : Number 207 In this issue: H-COST: Boucher's Book on Costume H-COST: Experimental Archeology: corsets & stays on the frontier Re: H-COST: British Infantry uniforms H-COST: costume collections in NYC H-COST: Fibre testing H-COST: Yikes! What HAVE I done? Re: H-COST: Yikes! What HAVE I done? Re: H-COST: British Infantry uniforms H-COST: Burn testing Re: H-COST: Burn testing H-COST: Dying and silk Re: H-COST: Re: Fiber testing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: MzScahlett@aol.com Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 13:36:24 EST Subject: H-COST: Boucher's Book on Costume - -Poster: MzScahlett@aol.com Sometime back, Francois Boucher's Book, "20,000 Years of Costume" was discussed at length and Susan Carroll-Clark (I believe) remarked that the text was virtually worthless as it had many dates that were inaccurate. I am two- thirds through the text and have found no such glaring errors. I may be missing something, but I would really appreciate a specific list of the inaccuracies, so that I can determine what portions of the research contained in the book I can rely on. thanks, angil + + + + + + + Angela F. Lazear Costumes & Custom Clothing "Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds" A. Einstein _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Susannah Eanes" Date: Tue, 09 Mar 1999 11:04:40 PST Subject: H-COST: Experimental Archeology: corsets & stays on the frontier - -Poster: "Susannah Eanes" Dear All, After this, I am off this list. I can e-mail privately those on the list with demonstrated knowledge of a certain subject, but I will not subject myself to this silliness. I offer hard evidence that Mr. Rickman has not researched his claim that working women never wore corsets, and I am continually bullied, "loathed," and ridiculed. This is my last word: Mr. Rickman is going to great lengths to try to "prove" that we of the opposite opinion are not the scholar that he is. In doing so, he is resorting to purposeful misapplication of points made, the appearance of trying to stop arguing, when he really just wants to have the last word, and refusing to see and recognize primary evidence that his opinion may be faulty. He claims: >And finally, while I have been trying to carefully support my >conclusions by >citing the sources, including bibliographical material, and sticking >closely >to primary evidence, I have seen little or nothing of careful >documentation in >the argument to the contrary. And yet, I am faulted for poor >scholarship. First of all, I saw little or no primary sources. Instead, he resorted to name-dropping and secondary sources. And for some reason, he cannot look at a photograph and tell that someone is bound or not. Hence, his reply to Kayta's interpretation of a photo of negro women working. BTW, I will have a copy of the photo I referenced of the negro women flailing rice; it is being sent to me so that I can look very closely at it. If anyone trusts MY eyes and wants to e-mail me privately about it, I will be happy to answer them personally. As for his claim that I myself am guilty of chronocentric thinking, What I Said Was: "since we can easily prove with the available evidence that even working women in the 18th century wore stays, they must have continued to wear them in the 19th century. It is MUCH more logical to assume, if we are going to assume anything, that they DID wear corsets, since we can prove that they wore them BEFORE the period in question. I hope I am not appearing to be too antagonistic, but the assumption that since we 20th century people THINK because WE are uncomfortable in them, that corsets would have been too uncomfortable to wear while working, they must have left off with them. THIS IS A [CHRONO]CENTRIC CONCLUSION." The Real point I made here, offset so perhaps it is easier to read: " We would do better to assume that in the 1840s, women wore corsets for working, until we have conclusive evidence that sometime between the 18th century and 1840, they stopped." If anybody here can read this, I hope they will see that I in no way hinted that since *I* prefer to wear corsetry, *they* must have worn them. I am SAYING that since 18th century women wore them, and since we have extant Working Corsets dated by professionals to the 1840s, GEE, SOMEBODY MUST HAVE WORN THEM! I did add, as many of you know, that I have worn corsets in performance of daily tasks for over 18 months. This was only to learn how they affected my own body, which was *not* corseted since childhood, and so cannot be the same as that of any of our ancestors. But, I offered it as an example of that only. THIS IS CALLED EXPERIMENTAL ARCHEOLOGY, and it is a VALID WAY TO LEARN about how things were done, worn, used, etc., by people who lived before we did. Do I need to cite basic archeological textbooks to prove this to him? Maybe. I hope some of you might examine the issue on your own. It is basic terminology, a very accepted method. It has nothing to do with applying our 20th c. mores and ideals to the past. Mr. Rickman is giving a false application of this when he accuses me of doing what I am warning against, and this proves his lack of scholarship to anyone with a degree in the field of social history, archeology, or anthropology. But maybe that isn't good enough for him, or any of you. I do learn things from my own first-person experience, and I think that since Mr. Rickman mentions that some interpreters and re-enactors have told him how it feels to wear a corset, he might have listened and applied some of that experimental archeological knowledge, instead of thrown it out the window. We women know that if someone had access to corsetry, and it was the style, and the accepted social thing to do, many women probably did wear them. We have said it is easily proven They Wore Them Prior to the Decade in Question, which apparently is *before* Mr. Rickman's time, so he's ignoring this aspect of the argument, too. Mr. Rickman would have us all go about flopping casually like unkempt, slovenly creatures, since HE cannot accept the evidence --which *includes* Extant Working Corsets and Photographs. Perhaps in his mind, working women WERE slovenly and unkempt. He would even have us throw out the Workwoman's Guide, because he states it would be too hard for them to have made corsets by that pattern. All I can say is, supposedly we are not the seamstresses they were. *We* have no trouble making them. How can he say with such authority that they could not do it? Again Experimental Archeology does teach us. Maybe I should just stick to my very lucrative and rewarding teaching, interpretation and garment reproduction business and stay off the list. This isn't fun anymore. Susannah ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Jean Waddie Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 19:20:23 +0000 Subject: Re: H-COST: British Infantry uniforms - -Poster: Jean Waddie In message <36E49AF4.2E66FF8F@earthlink.net>, Hulett writes > >-Poster: Hulett > >Thomas, > Well, after an extended search, I finally came up with this. >Victoria at the British Film Commission suggested you call 'Angels and >Vermin' That's Angels and _Bermans_ - and I think it is now just known as Angels. Jean >at 011 44 171 387 0999. This company is responsible for letting >to the film industry in London, similar to our Western Costume Co. here >in LA. I'm still waiting to hear from LACMA, will call them tommorrow, >though I really doubt there will be any info. > Napolean magazine has become a miniature mag and no longer has >reenactment ads. The one from a few years ago has 'gone into the ether' >and I'm afraid will be of no help. When you call Angels and Vermin, see >if they know what Saville row tailor makes british uniforms. I know >there is one and find in maddening that I can't find the name. > I have phone numbers from many of the places I called, so, if you >want them drop me a line and I'll digg up my notes. > Sorry I couldn't be of more help. The general consesus is that there >is so much extant material that there's no reason to have published >patterns. Well, no reason for those with money. >Cheers, jd >mhull@earthlink.net > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME - -- Jean Waddie _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Kara Rodgers Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 14:25:07 -0500 (EST) Subject: H-COST: costume collections in NYC - -Poster: Kara Rodgers Thanks to everyone who had suggestions for places to visit. I ended up going to the Costume Institute at the Metropoliton Museum. Their current exhibit was on the influence of Cubism on womens fashion in the early 20th century. They had some great clothes, including some wonderful Chanel and Vionnet (Spelling?) dresses. The descriptions kept going on about how as the Cubist painters were now working in the plane, dresses had gone from have a 3 demensionality of their own (they showed some late 19th century dresses with an hour-glass shape) to being flat, with no inherent structure. It was interesting, but in all of this, they didn't talk much about corset, and how foundation garments changed. I really recommend it to anyone who will be in NY soon. I wasn't actually traveling, I live in NY, but this weekend I had the chance to do some exploring on my own. Thanks again, Kara _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Melanie Wilson Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 16:16:12 -0500 Subject: H-COST: Fibre testing - -Poster: Melanie Wilson >I'm maKing garments for sale and legally, they have to be labeled properly. OK I understand, Poly/lycra tends to be shiney, Nylon/lycra tends to be dull as does cotton/lycra. But that is more due to type of manufacture & based on UK standards :(. If I was testing it I'd get a sublistatic transfer , a known Nylon & know= n PES sample, and heat transfer all 3. That should give you a very good ide= a Here if labeling for legal purposes one tends to state the blend eg 10% lycra 90% PES or whatever. Which while doable, is not something I think y= ou can undertake outside a lab. Mel _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Margo Anderson Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 14:23:05 -0800 (PST) Subject: H-COST: Yikes! What HAVE I done? - -Poster: Margo Anderson Well, folks, I just faxed my applications to the Parks and Rec Department, and I'm going to be teaching two workshops, one on Gold Rush Costume and one on Renaissance Costume. Now, of course, I'm sitting here agonizing about all I DON'T know about these two subjects. I need help, and where better to turn than this list? Here's what I need, in no particular order. I need to know what kind of patterns in cotton calico would have been used for women's everyday dresses in the 1850's, i.e, florals, geometrics, plaids, or whatever. If anyone can recommend a manufacturer's line that's particularly good, that would be very helpful. Also, was what we think of as "gingham" today the same thing them? And is there a source for it in 100% cotton? (All I can find is 60-40 poly cotton blend) I need book and website recommendations for an overview of men's clothing in the 19th century. Specifically in the area of men's clothing, I need to know what year Mr. Levi Strauss made the change from the original brownish canvas to the blue denim fabric for pants, and when those "black cowboy dusters" were worn. I'm still looking for a source for buckram 1850's bonnet frames. I've sent for the Enhancements catalog, but I suspect that their prices may be a bit high for my students. The one web source I found charges $35 for a plain buckram frame, which I find outrageous considering the simplicity of the shape. Is there, perhaps, a more theatrically-oriented supplier with more modest prices? If anyone has made the Alter Renaissance patterns, especially the bodices and corsets, I'd appreciate a review. Are they easy to understand, do they fit well, do they run large or small, etc. Would you recommend them to a sewer with modest skills? That's all for now, I'm sure I'll think of more. Thanks! Margo Anderson _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: MzScahlett@aol.com Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 17:48:45 EST Subject: Re: H-COST: Yikes! What HAVE I done? - -Poster: MzScahlett@aol.com In a message dated 3/9/1999 14:32:31 Pacific Standard Time, margo@directcon.net writes: << The one web source I found charges $35 for a plain buckram frame, which I find outrageous considering the simplicity of the shape. Is there, perhaps, a more theatrically-oriented supplier with more modest prices? >> Margo, I'll run check my extensive library of theatrical buckram sources and if I can find some that look appropriate, I can scan them and e-mail you jpegs w/prices. Then you can decide if they're in your price range. angil + + + + + + + Angela F. Lazear Costumes & Custom Clothing "Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds" A. Einstein _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: JPMcTeer@aol.com Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 18:53:42 EST Subject: Re: H-COST: British Infantry uniforms - -Poster: JPMcTeer@aol.com In a message dated 99-03-09 13:25:18 EST, you write: << Subject: H-COST: British Infantry uniforms - -Poster: Hulett Thomas, Well, after an extended search, I finally came up with this. Victoria at the British Film Commission suggested you call 'Angels and Vermin' at 011 44 171 387 0999. This company is responsible for letting to the film industry in London, similar to our Western Costume Co. here >> I believe the name is Angels and Bermans ( though I have no doubt that the slang version is as given.) They do costume rental for individuals as well as films. Just lurking again, Joan _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Heather Law Date: Tue, 09 Mar 1999 18:30:58 -0800 Subject: H-COST: Burn testing - -Poster: Heather Law Haven't followed this whole thread, so please forgive if this is "review"... But it might give you some help with the burn testing problem. When I was at Hancock the other day, I wanted to figure out for *sure* what the diff between rayon and silk was in a burn test... So I pulled a few threads off a couple of different *clearly labeled* bolts of each, (discreetly) whipped out the lighter, applied it, and duly noted the difference. So I suggest next time you hit the local Mcfabric's, you peel a few threads off several samples of clearly marked 100% nylon and some off various marked 100% polyesters, (be sure to keep track of which is which!), sneak off to an abandoned corner or aisle of the store and have at it... BTW I have no idea what celery is supposed to smell like, but you will *definitely* be able to tell the polymers ("plastics") by their smell: Sharp, intense, nasty, and you get a sense (or at least I do) that it's *way* toxic! Hope this helps, Heather _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Merouda of Bornover Date: Tue, 09 Mar 1999 16:33:13 -0800 Subject: Re: H-COST: Burn testing - -Poster: Merouda of Bornover > When I was at Hancock the other day, I wanted to figure out for *sure* > what the diff between rayon and silk was in a burn test... And your results?Cynthia - -- Cynthia Long Merouda of Bornover Barony of Madrone Kingdom of An Tir _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: The Purple Elephant Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 11:50:48 +0930 (CST) Subject: H-COST: Dying and silk - -Poster: The Purple Elephant Hello all, I have some silk that I was planning to dye with Rit Liquid Dye (yes I've heard the arguments against it, but it's cheap and suits the circumstances I have to dye in). Now on the label it says you should wash the fabric before you dye it. I have no specialty things for washing silk (and have no plans on buying any...this probably won't get washed much after the dying). Would it be okay to just rinse the silk in warm water before dying? (I assume the washing is to remove any size etc on the fabric, so would just water do the job?) - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Claire F. Clarke "What is this world if, full of care, Physicist, writer, We have no time to stand and stare?" and non environmentally Robert Louis Stevenson friendly substance. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: rio@austin.rr.com (StrangeGirl) Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 00:55:59 GMT Subject: Re: H-COST: Re: Fiber testing - -Poster: rio@austin.rr.com (StrangeGirl) >> -Poster: Dietmar >> I have a list of burn tests. If there is sufficient interest, I will >> get >> permission to repost it here. It contains the following: I am the author of that particular version of the 'burn-test how to' (there are a number of them available around the net). I posted it to rec.org.sca nearly two years ago, I think. I have since moved (twice) and changed emails, so the email on the message won't match this one. I could post it, if you like (or Dietmar is welcome to). The webbed version will be up on my page soon, link to be posted aas soon as anything of real interest goes up :) Margery - -----rio@austin.rr.com---Goddess of Last Minute Miracles--- "We went out with both lips blazing, and a pen in either=20 hand..." - the Flash Girls - -{*to reply take spambegone from my reply-to address*}- _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ End of h-costume-digest V4 #207 ******************************* _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME-DIGEST From ???@??? Wed Mar 10 10:12:18 1999 Received: from mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE (mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE [130.149.4.16]) by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id EAA11910 for ; Wed, 10 Mar 1999 04:37:30 +0100 (MET) Received: from mail.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.15]) by mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10KZoG-0000uo-01; Wed, 10 Mar 1999 04:37:28 +0100 Received: from coal.bg.tu-berlin.de by mail.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Wed, 10 Mar 1999 04:37:20 +0100 Received: from mail2.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.14]) by mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10KZo4-0000uX-00; Wed, 10 Mar 1999 04:37:16 +0100 Received: from tubkom.prz.tu-berlin.de by mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Wed, 10 Mar 1999 04:37:15 +0100 Received: from mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE (mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE [130.149.4.16]) by tubkom.prz.tu-berlin.de (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id EAA28824 for ; Wed, 10 Mar 1999 04:35:54 +0100 (MEZ) Received: from mail.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.15]) by mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10KZnz-0000uH-00; Wed, 10 Mar 1999 04:37:11 +0100 Received: from server.indra.com by mail.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Wed, 10 Mar 1999 04:37:01 +0100 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.8.5/) with ESMTP id UAA29360; Tue, 9 Mar 1999 20:57:06 -0700 (MST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id UAA05485 for h-costume-digest-outgoing; Tue, 9 Mar 1999 20:35:22 -0700 (MST) Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 20:35:22 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199903100335.UAA05485@indra.com> From: owner-h-costume-digest@indra.com To: h-costume-digest@indra.com Subject: h-costume-digest V4 #208 Reply-To: h-costume-digest@indra.com Errors-To: owner-h-costume-digest@indra.com Precedence: bulk h-costume-digest Tuesday, 9 March 1999 Volume 04 : Number 208 In this issue: H-COST: SARIs!!! Re: H-COST: Dying and silk Re: H-COST: Dying and silk H-COST: Re: h-costume-digest V4 #207 Re: H-COST: Dying and silk H-COST: Goldrush H-COST: Costumed historians Re: H-COST: Burn testing H-COST: Sofa cushions redux Re: H-COST: Burn testing Re: H-COST: SARIs!!! H-COST: Screen-printing silk? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Marsha McLean Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 19:47:52 -0500 (EST) Subject: H-COST: SARIs!!! - -Poster: Marsha McLean Janet Arnold stated at one of her talks here in Toronto: "Brocaded silk saris are the closest modern equivalent to period silk brocade" I HIGHLY recommend the experience. Things to watch out for in sari stores: "art" silk (ARTificial silk, some mercants won't admit that it's not pure). look for satin silk- the best quality, blends masquerading as pure Marsha/Madinia :) _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Frank&Tracy Thallas JR" Date: Tue, 09 Mar 99 18:49:36 PST Subject: Re: H-COST: Dying and silk - -Poster: "Frank&Tracy Thallas JR" Use shampoo, and rinse well - otherwise, I've never found the "specialty" products necessary. Liadain - ---------- > > -Poster: The Purple Elephant > > Hello all, I have some silk that I was planning to dye with Rit Liquid = Dye > (yes I've heard the arguments against it, but it's cheap and suits the > circumstances I have to dye in). Now on the label it says you should = wash > the fabric before you dye it. I have no specialty things for washing > silk (and have no plans on buying any...this probably won't get washed = > much after the dying). Would it be okay to just rinse the silk in warm = > water before dying? (I assume the washing is to remove any size etc on > the fabric, so would just water do the job?) > > -----------------------------------------------------------------------= - ------- > Claire F. Clarke "What is this world if, full of care, > Physicist, writer, We have no time to stand and stare?" > and non environmentally Robert Louis Stevenson > friendly substance. > -----------------------------------------------------------------------= - ------- > > _________________________________________________________________ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME > _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Harvey Georgia Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 11:54:15 +1100 Subject: Re: H-COST: Dying and silk - -Poster: Harvey Georgia - - -Poster: The Purple Elephant Hello all, I have some silk that I was planning to dye with Rit Liquid Dye (yes I've heard the arguments against it, but it's cheap and suits the circumstances I have to dye in). Now on the label it says you should wash the fabric before you dye it. I have no specialty things for washing silk (and have no plans on buying any...this probably won't get washed much after the dying). Would it be okay to just rinse the silk in warm water before dying? (I assume the washing is to remove any size etc on the fabric, so would just water do the job?) - -- Claire: I dye with RIT all the time (err...almost weekly - I *really* should find a commercial source). I dye silks, linens, cottons, mixes, and the dreaded synthetics. All I can say is that I usually use at least twice the amount of dye they suggest (I dye in black, red and purple, mostly), and make sure there is enough space in the pot to agitate the material properly, especially if you are dying something large. Umm...that didn't answer your question, but... rinsing in warm water should be just fine. Otherwise, if you want to use some sort of detergent, mild shampoo should do the trick. Good luck. Georgia _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Heather Law Date: Tue, 09 Mar 1999 19:34:24 -0800 Subject: H-COST: Re: h-costume-digest V4 #207 - -Poster: Heather Law Rayon: Burns *fast*, watch your fingers!, leaves little or no ash, faint smell of wood/paper. Silk: Burns slower, stops burning when you take flame off it, leaves a little fragile gray "bubble" at the end/edge that disintegrates when you squeeze it. Smell stronger than rayon, kind of weird sweet, like... howdya describe burning worm spit??? (Some people compair it with hair, will have to try comparing with wool or something.) Hope this helps, Heather > > When I was at Hancock the other day, I wanted to figure out for > > *sure* what the diff between rayon and silk was in a burn test... > > And your results?Cynthia _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Kat & Kent Date: Tue, 09 Mar 1999 19:32:09 -0600 Subject: Re: H-COST: Dying and silk - -Poster: Kat & Kent I wash silk all the time. Granted it's premade garments but I'm really weird in that I don't like to make anything that can't be thrown into the washer (well, I *am* making a leather corset...btw what's the best & cheapest source for busks & stays?). I wash everything in warm water & cold rinse (except for red which goes into cold/cold) on a permanent press setting. I've had a lot of fabric that *I* think comes out much, much better after washing. Kat _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Hope H. Dunlap" Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 21:19:30 -0500 Subject: H-COST: Goldrush - -Poster: "Hope H. Dunlap" Congratulations! I can understand the initial feeling of being overwhelmed. But I'm sure you'll do fine Quilt stores have all-cotton cloth appropriate for making dresses, and here are three Web sources with historically accurate patterns from the 19th Century: http://www.quiltedjourney.com http://www.patchworks-usa.com http://www.hickoryhillquilts.com/repro.htm For readymade clothing of all types at extremely reasonable prices, such as 17 styles of men's canvas, denim, and wool broadfall pants at prices ranging from $18.98 to $52.98, try the Amish purveyors at Gohn Brothers, Box 111, Middlebury, Indiana 46540-0111. They have leather soled shoes, old-fashioned women's high tops ($109.98), and ankle height men's traditional dress shoes($114.98). Also union suits, felt hats, 19th Century style cotton shirts. 24 styles of fur felt, wool felt, and straw hats in a variety of traditional 19th Century traditional styles and colors ($6.49-$69.98). Also Hudson's Bay blankets, Buffalo plaid blankets, bonnetboard in white and black, 3" shawl pins, bonnetwire, wool and cotton flannel by the yard, including cotton blanket flannel, onaburg cotton shirting 45" at $2.98, buckram, crinoline, and haircloth, wool shawl material, denims by the yard, wool coating, cotton be sheeting in 80" widths at $4.98/yard, broadfall pants buttons, suspenders, suspender webbing, suspender parts and leather fastenings to the pants, stockings, and shoes. These products are traditional, real, and made for real life in today's Amish and Mennonite communities. Try the facsimile publication of the 1838 Workwoman's Guide (or is it the Workwoman's Companion) from R. L. Shep via Fred Struthers Books http://www.mcn.org/e/fsbks/HTML/booklist.htm for authentic ways of making everyday bonnets, caps, undergarments. They have authentic books of tailoring systems for drafting and cutting men's and boys clothes of the period. Jas. Townsend & Son. Inc., 133 North First Street, P.O. Box 415, Pierceton, IN 46562 http://www.jastown.com has fabrics, wool point blankets (cheaper), books, fabrics, ready made clothing, accessories, tools, cloak clasps, etc. Don't forget Andy Nygen's sloper engines and his old fashioned waistcoat pattern engine. I couldn't swear to the vintage of the vest pattern, but it looks 19th Century, and it it isn't accurate for 1849, you could make appropriate adjustments. Ellen Gheret's *Early Pennsylvania Clothing* has a good 1750-1850 men's shirt analysis, photos of extant garments, cutting diagrams and instructions. Hope H. Dunlap - -----Original Message----- From: owner-h-costume@indra.com [mailto:owner-h-costume@indra.com]On Behalf Of Margo Anderson Sent: Tuesday, March 09, 1999 5:23 PM To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: H-COST: Yikes! What HAVE I done? - -Poster: Margo Anderson Well, folks, I just faxed my applications to the Parks and Rec Department, and I'm going to be teaching two workshops, one on Gold Rush Costume and one on Renaissance Costume. Now, of course, I'm sitting here agonizing about all I DON'T know about these two subjects. I need help, and where better to turn than this list? Here's what I need, in no particular order. I need to know what kind of patterns in cotton calico would have been used for women's everyday dresses in the 1850's, i.e, florals, geometrics, plaids, or whatever. If anyone can recommend a manufacturer's line that's particularly good, that would be very helpful. Also, was what we think of as "gingham" today the same thing them? And is there a source for it in 100% cotton? (All I can find is 60-40 poly cotton blend) I need book and website recommendations for an overview of men's clothing in the 19th century. Specifically in the area of men's clothing, I need to know what year Mr. Levi Strauss made the change from the original brownish canvas to the blue denim fabric for pants, and when those "black cowboy dusters" were worn. I'm still looking for a source for buckram 1850's bonnet frames. I've sent for the Enhancements catalog, but I suspect that their prices may be a bit high for my students. The one web source I found charges $35 for a plain buckram frame, which I find outrageous considering the simplicity of the shape. Is there, perhaps, a more theatrically-oriented supplier with more modest prices? If anyone has made the Alter Renaissance patterns, especially the bodices and corsets, I'd appreciate a review. Are they easy to understand, do they fit well, do they run large or small, etc. Would you recommend them to a sewer with modest skills? That's all for now, I'm sure I'll think of more. Thanks! Margo Anderson ____________________________________________________________ _____ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Penny E. Ladnier" Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 21:53:17 -0500 Subject: H-COST: Costumed historians - -Poster: "Penny E. Ladnier" I am fielding a request from the sixth grade Social Studies teachers at the middle school where I teach. We are located in Chesterfield, VA (a suburb of Richmond)... The teachers would like volunteer costumed historians who can do presentations on their special time period. The sixth graders are studying periods between the Middle Ages to Elizabethan. The teachers would like their students to learn what costumes were worn, how people generally lived, what they ate, etc. The teachers are trying their best to involve active historians in their classes. They would love to take the students to the Virginia Renn Faire but it is running to late in the school year for field trips. I would love to start a program like this for the seventh grade. They cover from 1600 to 1900. Right now, they are studying Colonial times. The drama club is having to learn Patrick Henry's speech. If you know anyone who would love a captive audience, please forward my name to them. This message may be posted to other email lists. Actually, I taught these students Egyptian costume last semester and they loved it. Penny Ladnier The Costume Gallery http://www.costumegallery.com _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: pnomail@bratshb.uwc.edu Date: Tue, 09 Mar 1999 21:00:35 -0600 Subject: Re: H-COST: Burn testing - -Poster: pnomail@bratshb.uwc.edu Dear List, In defense of the employees of the local McFabrics, please ask for a swatch, they'll cut one for you. And if you tell them what you are doing, they might help. It's safer for all concerned. I once dripped some "oops, its really not wool, but poly upholstery fabric" onto my hand and got second degree burns. (It also melted through multiple layers of poly chiffon.) Having flaming globs dripping in a fabric store would be dangerous. Please don't DJ >When I was at Hancock the other day, I wanted to figure out for *sure* >what the diff between rayon and silk was in a burn test... So I pulled >a few threads off a couple of different *clearly labeled* bolts of each, >(discreetly) whipped out the lighter, applied it, and duly noted the >difference. So I suggest next time you hit the local Mcfabric's, you >peel a few threads off several samples of clearly marked 100% nylon and >some off various marked 100% polyesters, (be sure to keep track of which >is which!), sneak off to an abandoned corner or aisle of the store and >have at it... _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Heather Law Date: Tue, 09 Mar 1999 21:09:53 -0800 Subject: H-COST: Sofa cushions redux - -Poster: Heather Law FWIW: When I was in college, I got old foam sofa cushions for about 2 bucks apiece from an upholstery repair/junk shop. In case someone's spousoid unit doesn't like sitting on the floor for a while... Heather _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: kat@grendal.rain.com Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 19:29:49 +0000 Subject: Re: H-COST: Burn testing - -Poster: kat@grendal.rain.com > When I was at Hancock the other day, I wanted to figure out for *sure* > what the diff between rayon and silk was in a burn test... So I pulled > a few threads off a couple of different *clearly labeled* bolts of each, > (discreetly) whipped out the lighter, applied it, and duly noted the > difference. So I suggest next time you hit the local Mcfabric's, you > peel a few threads off several samples of clearly marked 100% nylon and > some off various marked 100% polyesters, (be sure to keep track of which > is which!), sneak off to an abandoned corner or aisle of the store and > have at it... Please do not do this within a store. It can cause problems in terms of fire. If you test something, it should be done in good ventilation such as out of doors. Also, many stores have strict policies about removal of bits of the fabric even the smallest samples. You could get banned from some stores "for life" if they catch you. However, most are very willing to cut you a small swatch (unless it's a *really* expensive fabric like a $200 a yard silk or something like that. Even then they may sell you a small bit for less than it would usually cost you to buy it.) Kat Kat(June Russell) kat@grendal.rain.com Heu! Tintinnuntius meus Sonat! _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: kat@grendal.rain.com Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 19:33:58 +0000 Subject: Re: H-COST: SARIs!!! - -Poster: kat@grendal.rain.com > Things to watch out for in sari stores: "art" silk (ARTificial silk, some > mercants won't admit that it's not pure). look for satin silk- the best > quality, blends masquerading as pure Also "palace silk" (which is 100% polyester.) One way to tell is to look at the selvedges. The poly will have little holes in the selvedges from the "tenting" which is done during the processes. There will be no holes in the selvedges in silk as they are not tented during their processing. Kat Kat(June Russell) kat@grendal.rain.com Heu! Tintinnuntius meus Sonat! _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Sheridan Alder Date: Tue, 09 Mar 1999 22:29:23 -0600 Subject: H-COST: Screen-printing silk? - -Poster: Sheridan Alder Hello all: While on the subject of dyeing silk, has any kindred spirit out there, also mildly to moderately deranged, ever screen-printed silk? Like, yards and yards of it? In a really large pattern? My cunning plan (in embryo) is to try to recreate the effect of a large damask pattern in two tones. The silk and fabric painting books I got from the library suggest that almost any effect can be achieved, at least by professional silk painting artists. I'm rather more dubious if I can achieve the effect I want, or whether it will worth listening to my husband's language as he knocks together an enormous screen-printing screen for another crazy project....(to be fair, his language is somewhat justifable - I can get a bit "shrill" when experimenting.) I'm also concerned about the hand of the silk - I like my silks when they're nice and firm with a certain "crispness" and body like Thai silks. I would hate to lose that when washing them before dyeing or as a result of screen printing. Of course they did wear plain silks in the eighteenth century but that would be too easy... Sheridan _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ End of h-costume-digest V4 #208 ******************************* _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME-DIGEST From ???@??? Wed Mar 10 15:57:25 1999 Received: from mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE (mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE [130.149.4.16]) by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA17810 for ; Wed, 10 Mar 1999 15:53:48 +0100 (MET) Received: from mail.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.15]) by mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10KkMk-0007Hp-02; Wed, 10 Mar 1999 15:53:46 +0100 Received: from coal.bg.tu-berlin.de by mail.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Wed, 10 Mar 1999 15:53:33 +0100 Received: from mail2.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.14]) by mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10KkMS-0007GA-00; Wed, 10 Mar 1999 15:53:28 +0100 Received: from tubkom.prz.tu-berlin.de by mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Wed, 10 Mar 1999 15:53:27 +0100 Received: from mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE (mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE [130.149.4.16]) by tubkom.prz.tu-berlin.de (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA03393 for ; Wed, 10 Mar 1999 15:52:01 +0100 (MEZ) Received: from mail.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.15]) by mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10KkMJ-0007E3-00; Wed, 10 Mar 1999 15:53:19 +0100 Received: from server.indra.com by mail.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Wed, 10 Mar 1999 15:52:08 +0100 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.8.5/) with ESMTP id IAA21599; Wed, 10 Mar 1999 08:12:47 -0700 (MST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id HAA24714 for h-costume-digest-outgoing; Wed, 10 Mar 1999 07:50:32 -0700 (MST) Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 07:50:32 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199903101450.HAA24714@indra.com> From: owner-h-costume-digest@indra.com To: h-costume-digest@indra.com Subject: h-costume-digest V4 #209 Reply-To: h-costume-digest@indra.com Errors-To: owner-h-costume-digest@indra.com Precedence: bulk h-costume-digest Wednesday, 10 March 1999 Volume 04 : Number 209 In this issue: H-COST: Boucher Re: H-COST: Fibre testing H-COST: Costume informationfor schoolkids Re: H-COST: SARIs!!! Re: H-COST: Boucher clarification Re: H-COST: SARIs!!! Re: H-COST: Yikes! What HAVE I done? H-COST: Buckram sources H-COST: Source for "Garter" necklaces, or "collars" Re: H-COST: SARIs!!! Re: H-COST: Costumed historians H-COST: Varangian Guard Garb H-COST: Elizabethan Traveling Dress Re: H-COST: Source for "Garter" necklaces, or "collars" ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Susan Carroll-Clark" Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 22:56:38 -0500 Subject: H-COST: Boucher - -Poster: "Susan Carroll-Clark" - --Greetings! >Sometime back, Francois Boucher's Book, "20,000 Years of Costume" was >discussed at length and Susan Carroll-Clark (I believe) remarked that the text >was virtually worthless as it had many dates that were inaccurate. I am two- >thirds through the text and have found no such glaring errors. I may be >missing something, but I would really appreciate a specific list of the >inaccuracies, so that I can determine what portions of the research contained >in the book I can rely on. My warning was a more general one to watch out because I had found some inaccuracies in my *own* period of interest (I don't claim to be an expert on the entire scope of the book). Specifically, in the section on the thirteenth century, Boucher claims that sideless surcotes were in fashion all over Europe, and cites the surcote found in the royal tombs at Las Huelgas as being "typical" of this pan-European style. In fact, the Spanish garments of the 13th century are quite unique, and the true sideless surcote doesn't come into fashion for Europe (and even then, it's somewhat different than the Las Huelgas surcote) until the 14th century. Boucher's chapter in this section is a fairly undetailed overview, and with such overviews, a lot of generalizations often occur. Boucher's strength is the wonderful illustrations, and the book is best used in conjunction with books which specialize in a particular period and can go into more depth about details. Because of its scope, Boucher can't really do this. That's why I said to be careful about the text--it's not a bad idea to double check the info in a reliable focused source. Susan Carroll-Clark _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Carol J. Bell Cannon" Date: Tue, 09 Mar 1999 19:37:08 -0800 Subject: Re: H-COST: Fibre testing - -Poster: "Carol J. Bell Cannon" Here in California, at JoAnn's, I have seen some things with labels that read, for example: 50% linen/50% undetermined fibers. I don't know if it's legal, but think it must be, at least in this state. Carol _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Heather Law Date: Tue, 09 Mar 1999 22:20:55 -0800 Subject: H-COST: Costume informationfor schoolkids - -Poster: Heather Law Penny, both the SCA and International Costumer's Guild are educational groups which love to indoctrinate-uh, inform-kids about history, including costuming. Many SCA groups put on demos at schools. There doesn't seem to be an ICG group for Virginia, so I'm including the closest geographically with a suggestion that you contact them for Virginians. I am also including the webpage for the Virginia SCA. You may already be aware there is a group which I believe is on one-list for DC-area costumers. I am also including a webpage for the Revolutionary War Reenactor's group based in Virginia. And if you can't get the kids to the RennFaire, you may be able to bring the RennFaire to them. The Virginia Faire is owned by the same people as the local Bristol Faire, and they're extremely helpful people, who once again, are educationally based. And has anyone contacted the people at Williamsburg? Carol Mitchell President Chicagoland Costumer's Guild Greater Columbia Fantasy Costumer's Guild P.O. Box 683 Columbia, MD 21045 Amanda Allen at (410)257-7948. http://www.atlantia.sca.org/groups.shtml http://www.meridiantc.com/nwta/ (Revolutionary War) _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Andrea Gideon" Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 21:42:05 -0800 Subject: Re: H-COST: SARIs!!! - -Poster: "Andrea Gideon" > >-Poster: Marsha McLean > >Janet Arnold stated at one of her talks here in Toronto: >"Brocaded silk saris are the closest modern equivalent to period silk brocade" Which period? Andrea _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: MzScahlett@aol.com Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 00:14:22 EST Subject: Re: H-COST: Boucher clarification - -Poster: MzScahlett@aol.com In a message dated 3/9/1999 19:50:17 Pacific Standard Time, sclark@chass.utoronto.ca writes: << h specialize in a particular period and can go into more depth about details. Because of its scope, Boucher can't really do this. That's why I said to be careful about the text--it's not a bad idea to double check the info in a reliable focused source. Susan Carroll-Clark >> Thanks so much for taking the time to clarify your remarks. It makes sense in context now. I have found the text really interesting, but use multiple sources for any time period (I don't just do one, I do theatrical costuming, so I have to know a little about all periods rather than the other way 'round)... anyway, I love this book, and the illustrations are exquisite. angil ++++++++ Angela F. Lazear Costumes & Custom Clothing "Yes, all my laurels you have riven away and all my roses; yet in spite of you, there is one crown I bear away with me, and tonight, when I enter before God, my salute shall sweep all the stars away from the blue threshold! One thing without stain, unspotted from the world, in spite of doom, mine own! and that is.... my white plume!" ~~ Edmond Rostand's Cyrano de Bergerac _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Pompadour Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 13:34:17 +0000 Subject: Re: H-COST: SARIs!!! - -Poster: Pompadour At 05:42 10.03.99 , you wrote: >>Janet Arnold stated at one of her talks here in Toronto: >>"Brocaded silk saris are the closest modern equivalent to period silk >brocade" > >Which period? good point! and which kind of brocaded sils sari? salut... marquise_de_pompadour@gmx.net - www.costumegallery.com/pompadour/ _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: CJ Brunette Date: Tue, 09 Mar 1999 23:50:32 -0600 Subject: Re: H-COST: Yikes! What HAVE I done? - -Poster: CJ Brunette Hi- tired- here's a quick partial review- Alter years Renaissance bodice patterns ran a little on the large side but were not difficult. I gave them to 3 women who seldom sew & another who was a former home-ec teacher, all came out looking very presentable, but not really aware of the fact that they had made them a little big. I would pay special attention to the shoulders & high bust, secondarily to the length, both front & back. - --CarolJane in Minneapolis Wardrobe Mistress for King of the Log game at MN Renaissance Festival (we did not burn up in the fire.) At 02:23 PM 3/9/99 -0800, you wrote: > >-Poster: Margo Anderson > >Well, folks, I just faxed my applications to the Parks and Rec Department, >and I'm going to be teaching two workshops, one on Gold Rush Costume and one >on Renaissance Costume. Now, of course, I'm sitting here agonizing about >all I DON'T know about these two subjects. I need help, and where better to >turn than this list? > >Here's what I need, in no particular order. > > >I need to know what kind of patterns in cotton calico would have been used >for women's everyday dresses in the 1850's, i.e, florals, geometrics, >plaids, or whatever. If anyone can recommend a manufacturer's line that's >particularly good, that would be very helpful. Also, was what we think of as >"gingham" today the same thing them? And is there a source for it in 100% >cotton? (All I can find is 60-40 poly cotton blend) > >I need book and website recommendations for an overview of men's clothing in >the 19th century. > >Specifically in the area of men's clothing, I need to know what year Mr. >Levi Strauss made the change from the original brownish canvas to the blue >denim fabric for pants, and when those "black cowboy dusters" were worn. > >I'm still looking for a source for buckram 1850's bonnet frames. I've sent >for the Enhancements catalog, but I suspect that their prices may be a bit >high for my students. The one web source I found charges $35 for a plain >buckram frame, which I find outrageous considering the simplicity of the >shape. Is there, perhaps, a more theatrically-oriented supplier with more >modest prices? > >If anyone has made the Alter Renaissance patterns, especially the bodices >and corsets, I'd appreciate a review. Are they easy to understand, do they >fit well, do they run large or small, etc. Would you recommend them to a >sewer with modest skills? > > >That's all for now, I'm sure I'll think of more. Thanks! > >Margo Anderson > > > _________________________________________________________________ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME > _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: MzScahlett@aol.com Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 01:01:26 EST Subject: H-COST: Buckram sources - -Poster: MzScahlett@aol.com Margo, Sources for theatrical hat frames (buckram): SOUTHERN IMPORTERS 4825 San Jacinto Houston, Texas 77004 (713) 524-8236 Price range: 3.95 - 7.95 ++++++ THEATER HOUSE, INC. P.O. Box 2090 400 West Third Street Covington, KY 41012-2090 606-431-2414 606-431-1837 (fax) Price range: $4.85 - 7.75 (for poke bonnets), other shapes similarly priced Either of these places might be willing to give you a wholesale price for quantity. angil ++++++++ Angela F. Lazear Costumes & Custom Clothing "Yes, all my laurels you have riven away and all my roses; yet in spite of you, there is one crown I bear away with me, and tonight, when I enter before God, my salute shall sweep all the stars away from the blue threshold! One thing without stain, unspotted from the world, in spite of doom, mine own! and that is.... my white plume!" ~~ Edmond Rostand's Cyrano de Bergerac _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: MzScahlett@aol.com Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 01:09:44 EST Subject: H-COST: Source for "Garter" necklaces, or "collars" - -Poster: MzScahlett@aol.com Can anyone point me in the direction of a source for men's Elizabethan jeweled "garters" (those lovely heavy 2-3" wide "collars" worn over their clothing? You know, that oversized gold necklace that you always see Henry VIII wearing? If there is a better name than garter or collar, please enlighten me. I just want to know where I can get one or more of them. I'd like either a source for the materials to make them --- ex: heavy gold colored links and large "set" fake jewels that could be hooked together with o-rings, or a reasonably priced facsimile that is ready made. Whatever sources anyone is aware of, I'd love to hear about any and all of them. Thanks in advance, angil ++++++++ Angela F. Lazear Costumes & Custom Clothing "Yes, all my laurels you have riven away and all my roses; yet in spite of you, there is one crown I bear away with me, and tonight, when I enter before God, my salute shall sweep all the stars away from the blue threshold! One thing without stain, unspotted from the world, in spite of doom, mine own! and that is.... my white plume!" ~~ Edmond Rostand's Cyrano de Bergerac _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Sara J. Davitt" Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 02:29:08 -0600 (CST) Subject: Re: H-COST: SARIs!!! - -Poster: "Sara J. Davitt" Speaking of... for those in the Chicagoland Area... ISP (India Sari Palace... 2534 W. Devon Ave. Chicago, IL (773) 338-2127 ) is having their once a year inventory reduction sale now through the 29th of March. happy stashing! Sarahj **2Y's**UR**2Y's**UB**IC**UR**2Y's**4Me** _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Cornelia Rutherford Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 09:12:19 -0500 Subject: Re: H-COST: Costumed historians - -Poster: Cornelia Rutherford Penny - I just returned from Beckley, W.Va, where my troupe: Out of the Woodwork, gave a one day seminar in Elizabethan Renaissance Reenactment to students, faculty and parents from Independence High School.  This group is made up predominantly of cast members from the Virginia Renaissance Faire.  We taught history, the function of class, dress, music, dance, dialect & vocabulary and basic street performing.  O of W also performed for the entire student body.  It was a HUGE success.  I can provide you with our contact there, if you'd like a teacher's view.
We would be happy to work on this with your merry band.  - Cornelia

At 09:53 PM 3/9/99 -0500, you wrote:
>
>-Poster: "Penny E. Ladnier" <penny.creative.outlets@erols.com>
>
>I am fielding a request from the sixth grade Social Studies teachers at the
>middle school where I teach.=A0 We are located in Chesterfield, VA (a suburb
>of Richmond)...
>
>The teachers would like volunteer costumed historians who can=20 do
>presentations on their special time period.=A0 The sixth graders are studying
>periods between the Middle Ages to Elizabethan. The teachers would like
>their students to learn what costumes were worn, how people generally lived,
>what they ate, etc.=A0 The teachers are trying their best to involve active
>historians in their classes.=A0 They would love to take the students to the
>Virginia Renn Faire but it is running to late in the school year for field
>trips.
>
>I would love to start a program like this for the seventh grade.=A0 They cover
>from 1600 to 1900.=A0 Right now, they are studying Colonial times.=A0 Th= e drama
>club is having to learn Patrick Henry's speech.
>
>If you know anyone who would love a captive audience, please forward my name
>to them.=A0 This message may be posted to other email lists. Actually, I
>taught these students Egyptian costume last semester and they loved it.
>
>Penny Ladnier
>The Costume Gallery
>http://www.costumegallery.com
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com
> with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME
>

Cornie Rutherford
NEW ADDRESS eff. 10/20/98: rutheco@erols.com _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Merlyncc@aol.com Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 09:28:16 EST Subject: H-COST: Varangian Guard Garb - -Poster: Merlyncc@aol.com I need some help locating illustrations of clothing worn by the Varangian Guard. As I understand it, they were of Viking heritage but deployed in the middle east. I found an SCA webpage and printed off some photos of the reinactment for a client who wants a similar costume, but misplaced it when he didn't pick it up for months. I bookmarked the page, but when I returned to it, it was no longer active. I would appreciate a response to merlyncc@aol.com since it may not be a topic of interest to everyone. Thank you, Priscilla Schmitz _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: CDepner26@webtv.net (Harold Hensley) Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 09:45:04 -0500 (EST) Subject: H-COST: Elizabethan Traveling Dress - -Poster: CDepner26@webtv.net (Harold Hensley) I'm trying to research a traveling dress for an Elizabethan noble woman however, I'm having a hard time finding documentation for it. Were they plain or embellished in some way? Please point me in the right direction as I'm chomping at the bit to get started on this project. Melissa _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Cynthia Bucheger" Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 08:53:43 -0600 Subject: Re: H-COST: Source for "Garter" necklaces, or "collars" - -Poster: "Cynthia Bucheger" I found a really neat belt at a thrift store with lion head medalions and that chuck-size chain, was the right size to drape around my shoulders... Alexandria MzScahlett@aol.com wrote: > > -Poster: MzScahlett@aol.com > > Can anyone point me in the direction of a source for men's Elizabethan jeweled > "garters" (those lovely heavy 2-3" wide "collars" worn over their clothing? > You know, that oversized gold necklace that you always see Henry VIII wearing? > If there is a better name than garter or collar, please enlighten me. I just > want to know where I can get one or more of them. > > I'd like either a source for the materials to make them --- ex: heavy gold > colored links and large "set" fake jewels that could be hooked together with > o-rings, or a reasonably priced facsimile that is ready made. Whatever > sources anyone is aware of, I'd love to hear about any and all of them. > > Thanks in advance, > > angil _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ End of h-costume-digest V4 #209 ******************************* _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME-DIGEST From ???@??? Wed Mar 10 19:58:38 1999 Received: from mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE (mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE [130.149.4.16]) by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA19944 for ; Wed, 10 Mar 1999 19:46:29 +0100 (MET) Received: from mail.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.15]) by mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10Knzs-0007Iu-00; Wed, 10 Mar 1999 19:46:24 +0100 Received: from coal.bg.tu-berlin.de by mail.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Wed, 10 Mar 1999 19:46:14 +0100 Received: from mail2.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.14]) by mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10Knze-0007Ik-00; Wed, 10 Mar 1999 19:46:10 +0100 Received: from tubkom.prz.tu-berlin.de by mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Wed, 10 Mar 1999 19:46:08 +0100 Received: from mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE (mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE [130.149.4.16]) by tubkom.prz.tu-berlin.de (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA05594 for ; Wed, 10 Mar 1999 19:44:46 +0100 (MEZ) Received: from mail.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.15]) by mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10KnzY-0007IW-00; Wed, 10 Mar 1999 19:46:04 +0100 Received: from server.indra.com by mail.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Wed, 10 Mar 1999 19:44:30 +0100 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.8.5/) with ESMTP id MAA01539; Wed, 10 Mar 1999 12:05:19 -0700 (MST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id LAA18643 for h-costume-digest-outgoing; Wed, 10 Mar 1999 11:25:15 -0700 (MST) Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 11:25:15 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199903101825.LAA18643@indra.com> From: owner-h-costume-digest@indra.com To: h-costume-digest@indra.com Subject: h-costume-digest V4 #210 Reply-To: h-costume-digest@indra.com Errors-To: owner-h-costume-digest@indra.com Precedence: bulk h-costume-digest Wednesday, 10 March 1999 Volume 04 : Number 210 In this issue: H-COST: knitting again Re: H-COST: Elizabethan Traveling Dress RE: H-COST: Screen-printing silk? Re: H-COST: Yikes! What HAVE I done? H-COST: MN Renaissance Festival Fire H-COST: garter collars Re: H-COST: garter collars Re: H-COST: garter collars Re: H-COST: Elizabethan Traveling Dress Re: H-COST: garter collars Re: H-COST: Elizabethan Traveling Dress Re: H-COST: garter collars H-COST: Angels ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: pulliam@acadia.net (Deborah Pulliam) Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 10:01:50 -0500 Subject: H-COST: knitting again - -Poster: pulliam@acadia.net (Deborah Pulliam) <<'The Sacred History of Knitting', by Heinze Kiewe, claims fisherman's sweaters were knitted to different patterns so drowned fishermen could be identified by their sweaters. Unfortunately, his book is one of those "suspect" references. >> Kiewe is widely acknowledged to have invented the drowned fisherman/identification folklore of Aran sweaters. He probably got the idea from the Synge play, but there are no references to it anywhere prior to his book. The rest of the book is similar, his imaginative ideas of what things are/were. It should tell you something that the book has absolutely no references or bibliography of any kind. Deborah _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: aleed Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 10:05:34 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: H-COST: Elizabethan Traveling Dress - -Poster: aleed The only item of Elizabethan clothing I know of that is specifically related to travel is the "safeguard", which was a covering worn over the skirts while horseriding to protect them from mud splatters, stains, etc. There's never been any description found of what a "safeguard" looked like; it could be a plain skirt, or a bag-type covering, or any number of things. Pictures of Queen Elizabeth riding a horse show her dressed in rich garments, though toned down more than court garb; I can't see how a spanish farthingale could be worn while horseriding, either. For practicality's sake, traveling clothes would be plainer, probably of wool as opposed to a silk based fabric. If you can get ahold of Janet Arnold's Queen Elizabeth's Wardrobe Unlock'd, this book has both pictures of Elizabeth riding, plus info on safeguards and pretty much anything else--if you find information on travel clothing anywhere, it would be here. Sounds like an interesting topic! Drea > > -Poster: CDepner26@webtv.net (Harold Hensley) > > I'm trying to research a traveling dress for an Elizabethan noble woman > however, I'm having a hard time finding documentation for it. Were they > plain or embellished in some way? Please point me in the right > direction as I'm chomping at the bit to get started on this project. > > Melissa > > _________________________________________________________________ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME > _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Hope H. Dunlap" Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 10:18:38 -0500 Subject: RE: H-COST: Screen-printing silk? - -Poster: "Hope H. Dunlap" I recently saw fashion design students working on a school project screen printing yards and yards of silk chiffon by hand. No more equipment than a large flat work surface and the screen you are talking about. They achieved some very subtle tone-on-tone effects, and yet were able to maintain the hand of the fabric, even with a number of colors overlaid on each other. I didn't ask them for the brands of textile paint they were using, but I bet someone at Dharmaware could point you towards the right materials. By the way, a friend achieved highly professional results screen-printing T-shirts recently using nothing more than typing paper loosely laid on (or under? I don't know which) her screen for the pattern. No chemicals to fuss with, and she was able to get several repeats out of a single sheet. Very fast prep and clean-up. Hope H. Dunlap - -----Original Message----- From: owner-h-costume@indra.com [mailto:owner-h-costume@indra.com]On Behalf Of Sheridan Alder Sent: Tuesday, March 09, 1999 11:29 PM To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: H-COST: Screen-printing silk? - -Poster: Sheridan Alder Hello all: While on the subject of dyeing silk, has any kindred spirit out there, also mildly to moderately deranged, ever screen-printed silk? Like, yards and yards of it? In a really large pattern? My cunning plan (in embryo) is to try to recreate the effect of a large damask pattern in two tones. The silk and fabric painting books I got from the library suggest that almost any effect can be achieved, at least by professional silk painting artists. I'm rather more dubious if I can achieve the effect I want, or whether it will worth listening to my husband's language as he knocks together an enormous screen-printing screen for another crazy project....(to be fair, his language is somewhat justifable - I can get a bit "shrill" when experimenting.) I'm also concerned about the hand of the silk - I like my silks when they're nice and firm with a certain "crispness" and body like Thai silks. I would hate to lose that when washing them before dyeing or as a result of screen printing. Of course they did wear plain silks in the eighteenth century but that would be too easy... Sheridan ____________________________________________________________ _____ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Doris J. Nash" Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 09:36:24 -0600 Subject: Re: H-COST: Yikes! What HAVE I done? - -Poster: "Doris J. Nash" At 11:50 PM 3/9/99 -0600, you wrote: > >-Poster: CJ Brunette > >Hi- tired- here's a quick partial review- Alter years Renaissance bodice >patterns ran a little on the large side but were not difficult. I gave them >to 3 women who seldom sew & another who was a former home-ec teacher, all >came out looking very presentable, but not really aware of the fact that >they had made them a little big. I would pay special attention to the >shoulders & high bust, secondarily to the length, both front & back. >--CarolJane in Minneapolis Wardrobe Mistress for King of the Log game at >MN Renaissance Festival (we did not burn up in the fire.) FIRE!?? What fire? Doris Long-time MN RenFest attendee - ----------------------------- Doris Nash 515-294-8863 Costume Shop Supervisor, Iowa State University "...with ruffs and cuffs, and farthingales and things." - --Shakespeare, The Taming of the Shrew _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: CJ Brunette Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 10:07:31 -0600 Subject: H-COST: MN Renaissance Festival Fire - -Poster: CJ Brunette The question was about the recent fire at Mn Renaissance Festival site- It was arson, no arrests in the news. For those who know the site, the area destroyed was approx from the privies near the stocks all the way down to the chain mail jewelry shop, and also the kids play area & glass blowers on the other side of the path. It adds up to about 10% of the festival buildings, 30+ shops. Most shopkeepers were not insured & may not be able to rebuild because building codes are much stricter now. There is a crafter's relief fund through a local bank, I don't have details, could find out if anyone wants to know. I am leaving for San Fran tomorrow, so it would have to wait until next week. Here's a link to a news story- I think it still works. http://www.wcco.com/news/stories/news-990226-064220.html - --CarolJane in Minneapolis _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: pulliam@acadia.net (Deborah Pulliam) Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 11:26:23 -0500 Subject: H-COST: garter collars - -Poster: pulliam@acadia.net (Deborah Pulliam) <> I don't know where you can get one, but what you're referring to is called a collar, although it's more like what we would call a necklace or chain. They tend to be called "Garter Collars" because about the only ones you see in the 20c are part of the clothing worn by the Knights of the Garter. On those, the medallion (actually, they're three-dimensional) is a lamb (represents the Golden Fleece.) You can always find a photo fof Queen Elizabeth II in hers -- wearing a Tudor flat cap (known to insiders as a cow pat hat, by the way), navy velvet robe, the gold collar, a red liripipe on her shoulder, etc. _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Kat & Kent Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 10:34:24 -0600 Subject: Re: H-COST: garter collars - -Poster: Kat & Kent Are these not also called Chain (or Collar) of State? Particularly when worn by Chancellors? Kat _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: CONNECT@aol.com Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 11:45:55 EST Subject: Re: H-COST: garter collars - -Poster: CONNECT@aol.com My understanding of the term for this large peice of jewelry was to call it a Chain of Office. A classic example is the large chain about Sir Thomas More's shoulders in the famous Holbein painting. Yours, Pattie Rayl - ------------ In a message dated 3/10/99 11:27:53 AM, pulliam@acadia.net writes: << <> I don't know where you can get one, but what you're referring to is called a collar, although it's more like what we would call a necklace or chain. >> _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: seamstrix@juno.com Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 10:31:31 -0600 Subject: Re: H-COST: Elizabethan Traveling Dress - -Poster: seamstrix@juno.com It's my understanding that during the Elizabethan era, women didn't wear specific riding habits. Elizabeth was noted by foreign ambassadors as wearing her magnificent dresses when out riding and showing herself to her people. The ladies of the court seem to have followed her example in this as in most things. The ambassadors shook their ambassadorial heads in amazement that the Queen would do this, but isn't that just typical of Elizabeth. I suspect that in their more private times, her ladies might have worn more practical dresses, but we don't seem to have any record of this. Are you doing a riding outfit for a lady of the court or of someone who lived away from court? Karen _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: seamstrix@juno.com Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 10:40:40 -0600 Subject: Re: H-COST: garter collars - -Poster: seamstrix@juno.com On Wed, 10 Mar 1999 11:26:23 -0500 pulliam@acadia.net (Deborah Pulliam) writes: > >-Poster: pulliam@acadia.net (Deborah Pulliam) > ><Elizabethan jeweled >"garters" (those lovely heavy 2-3" wide "collars" worn over their >clothing? >You know, that oversized gold necklace that you always see Henry VIII >wearing? >If there is a better name than garter or collar, please enlighten me. The Garter Collar didn't have a Golden Fleece, that was a European order, it had a 3-dimensional pendant of St. George slaying the Dragon. The collar is made up of alternating knots and Tudor roses surrounded by a garter complete with motto. A Lesser George was also worn which was more of a medallion, once again showing St. George slaying the Dragon surrounded by a jeweled Garter and worn on either a blue silk ribbon or a jeweled chain. I just saw the earliest surviving set of Garter regalia which is on display at the British Museum. I have several detailed pictures which I am trying to make available. Karen >They tend to be called "Garter Collars" because about the only ones >you see in the 20c are part of the clothing worn by the Knights of the Garter. >On those, the medallion (actually, they're three-dimensional) is a lamb >(represents the Golden Fleece.) > > _________________________________________________________________ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Merouda of Bornover Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 09:23:40 -0800 Subject: Re: H-COST: Elizabethan Traveling Dress - -Poster: Merouda of Bornover > It's my understanding that during the Elizabethan era, women didn't wear > specific riding habits. I understand her question to be about clothing to be worn for travel, not riding. And yes, I think there is a difference. While I have no idea what would have been worn, I am dying to find out what you think it might have been. But for travel over long distances in a coach, I would have thought there would have been a mind towards comfort and easy washability. Riding probably wouldn't have covered such long distances. What Elizabeth wore probably isn't the answer either. After all she was queen. What would a noble or an upperclass commoner have worn? Somelike us? *G* Merouda - -- Cynthia Long Merouda of Bornover Barony of Madrone Kingdom of An Tir _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Lynn Downward Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 09:37:16 -0800 Subject: Re: H-COST: garter collars - -Poster: Lynn Downward Karen is absolutely right about the Garter collars in England. And the problem with having a garter collar is that there were only a handful given out at any given time. Men had to wait for years for a Garter Knight to die before they were given one. You may be talking about chain of state, as someone else mentioned. There seem to have been more of those, if you include every town mayor, aldermen, other city/town officials with the state officials. I have no suggestions where to get them except to look around in thrift stores and bead/finding catalogs until you find what you're looking for and re-invent it. My husband wears a wonderful chain with his Elizabethan courts (not a chain of office) that I found in the local thrift for the American Heart Association. It originally was a really awful women's belt with plastic pearls the size of big marbles. I convinced him to remove the pearls and straighten the chain part around with his heavier tools. When he handed it back to him I gave it to him. He was pleased. LynnD >-Poster: seamstrix@juno.com > > >On Wed, 10 Mar 1999 11:26:23 -0500 pulliam@acadia.net (Deborah Pulliam) >writes: >> >>-Poster: pulliam@acadia.net (Deborah Pulliam) >> >><>Elizabethan jeweled >>"garters" (those lovely heavy 2-3" wide "collars" worn over their >>clothing? >>You know, that oversized gold necklace that you always see Henry VIII >>wearing? >>If there is a better name than garter or collar, please enlighten me. >The Garter Collar didn't have a Golden Fleece, that was a European order, >it had a 3-dimensional pendant of St. George slaying the Dragon. The >collar is made up of alternating knots and Tudor roses surrounded by a >garter complete with motto. A Lesser George was also worn which was more >of a medallion, once again showing St. George slaying the Dragon >surrounded by a jeweled Garter and worn on either a blue silk ribbon or a >jeweled chain. I just saw the earliest surviving set of Garter regalia >which is on display at the British Museum. I have several detailed >pictures which I am trying to make available. > > >Karen > > > > >>They tend to be called "Garter Collars" because about the only ones >>you see in the 20c are part of the clothing worn by the Knights of the >Garter. >>On those, the medallion (actually, they're three-dimensional) is a lamb >>(represents the Golden Fleece.) _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Melanie Wilson Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 13:23:50 -0500 Subject: H-COST: Angels - -Poster: Melanie Wilson I wish you luck with Angels, but so far all they have ever told me is tha= t I can rent such & such for a hugh amount of money ! As far as I know no patterns. There is a company called kitbag who might make you one, but wi= th the around so cheap why not buy one ? Or are you in the US ? Mel _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ End of h-costume-digest V4 #210 ******************************* _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME-DIGEST From ???@??? Thu Mar 11 00:39:08 1999 Received: from mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE (mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE [130.149.4.16]) by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA21321 for ; Thu, 11 Mar 1999 00:32:54 +0100 (MET) Received: from mail.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.15]) by mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10KsT7-00078B-00; Thu, 11 Mar 1999 00:32:53 +0100 Received: from coal.bg.tu-berlin.de by mail.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Thu, 11 Mar 1999 00:32:41 +0100 Received: from mail.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.15]) by mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10KsSs-000782-00; Thu, 11 Mar 1999 00:32:38 +0100 Received: from tubkom.prz.tu-berlin.de by mail.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Thu, 11 Mar 1999 00:32:34 +0100 Received: from mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE (mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE [130.149.4.16]) by tubkom.prz.tu-berlin.de (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA07934 for ; Thu, 11 Mar 1999 00:31:11 +0100 (MEZ) Received: from mail.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.15]) by mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10KsSk-00077y-00; Thu, 11 Mar 1999 00:32:30 +0100 Received: from server.indra.com by mail.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Thu, 11 Mar 1999 00:32:23 +0100 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.8.5/) with ESMTP id QAA23541; Wed, 10 Mar 1999 16:53:26 -0700 (MST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id QAA13244 for h-costume-digest-outgoing; Wed, 10 Mar 1999 16:30:49 -0700 (MST) Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 16:30:49 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199903102330.QAA13244@indra.com> From: owner-h-costume-digest@indra.com To: h-costume-digest@indra.com Subject: h-costume-digest V4 #211 Reply-To: h-costume-digest@indra.com Errors-To: owner-h-costume-digest@indra.com Precedence: bulk h-costume-digest Wednesday, 10 March 1999 Volume 04 : Number 211 In this issue: Re: H-COST: garter collars H-COST: Finally FO! Re: H-COST: Source for "Garter" necklaces, or "collars" Re: H-COST: Source for "Garter" necklaces, or "collars" H-COST: German Tudor question Re: H-COST: German Tudor question H-COST: Crafters Emergency Relief Fund H-COST: burn tests H-COST: Re: Undies Debate - Lisee's Woodcut RE: H-COST: Angels H-COST: Re: Undies Debate - Lisee's Woodcut H-COST: Re: Undies Debate - Lisee's Woodcut ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: MzScahlett@aol.com Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 14:13:22 EST Subject: Re: H-COST: garter collars - -Poster: MzScahlett@aol.com In a message dated 3/10/1999 09:38:54 Pacific Standard Time, ldownward@mail.cho.org writes: << It originally was a really awful women's belt with plastic pearls the size of big marbles. I convinced him to remove the pearls and straighten the chain part around with his heavier tools. When he handed it back to him I gave it to him. He was pleased. >> I will continue to look in thrift stores, but I was hoping to buy quantities of the pieces that are used to make these and make my own. I've got tons of beading/ jewelry finding catalogues and nothing suitable has yet turned up. angil ++++++++ Angela F. Lazear Costumes & Custom Clothing "Yes, all my laurels you have riven away and all my roses; yet in spite of you, there is one crown I bear away with me, and tonight, when I enter before God, my salute shall sweep all the stars away from the blue threshold! One thing without stain, unspotted from the world, in spite of doom, mine own! and that is.... my white plume!" ~~ Edmond Rostand's Cyrano de Bergerac _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Ninni M Pettersson Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 20:03:42 +0100 Subject: H-COST: Finally FO! - -Poster: Ninni M Pettersson Greetings! I was going to delay describing the finished result of my 1545 Tudor Doll Project until I had at least one photo on the web, but because it's looks like it will be another two or three weeks until I can get hold of a scanner, it's more than a month since she was finished, and I finally has some free time to write, I just can't keep silent anymore :-) Yes, the doll is finally finished after about 5 months! The doll itself is homebuilt: a soft body (from a modified waldorf-doll pattern) stuffed with carded wool, with a fabric-covered styrofoam head, and a ready-made doll's wig. First layer: white square-necked smock with some simple blackwork on the cuffs, white kneelenght hosen with garters of narrow gold trim, black satin shoes trimmed with gold and a few gold beads. Second layer: corset (not boned), narrow bum-roll, spanish farthingale (rigilene used for the hoops). Third layer: underskirt in a stiff gold & black brocade with the forepart embroidered with black and gold beads and trimmed with gold, undersleeves of the same fabric trimmed with gold. Fourth layer: square-necked black satin gown with front opening and pinned on stomacher with black velvet sleeve cuffs, pinned on neckline billiment made from gold trim emroidered with pearls and black beads. Headdress: white undercap with narrow chinstrap, French hood with the "front" made from the same brocade as the underskirt and the "hood" in black velvet, nether billiment made from narrow gold trim embroidered with small pearls, upper billiment the same as the neckline's. Jewellery: Pearl and gold bead necklace with a small pearl pendant circling the neck and then stuffed into the bodice, brooch of pearl and gold beads, girdle made like the billiment with a miniature portrait pendant (a photo of a portrait of the Swedish king Gustav Vasa found in an auction catalouge, glued to cardboard and decorated with gold beads). Everything except the doll is handsewn. (First time for me!) The source of all of the underpinnings is Drea's wonderful web-site at . For the gown and hood I've looked at inumerable pictures and read and pondered discussions on h-costume. This last has been an invaluable resource. Thank you all! I hope to have at least one (not very good) photograph up on the web in, at most, three weeks time. But I have to wait for better weather until I attempt to really document her from the "skin" out, and make a real web-site for her. Oh yes, she has a name: Lady Sybil Ramkin As a Young Girl. (Those of you who have read Terry Pratchett will know who I mean ;-) Well, that's that. What am I going to do now? I have so many potential projects "on the drawing-board" that it's hard to chose. Time will tell I guess :-) /Ninni Pettersson _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Margo Anderson Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 12:17:48 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: H-COST: Source for "Garter" necklaces, or "collars" - -Poster: Margo Anderson At 08:53 AM 3/10/99 -0600, you wrote: > >-Poster: "Cynthia Bucheger" > >I found a really neat belt at a thrift store with lion head medalions >and that chuck-size chain, was the right size to drape around my >shoulders... > I agree, thrift store chain belts are the BEST for making these collors. If you need several identical ones, you could buy several belts in the same metal color and take them apart and recombine them, alternating different types of links. You could also add short double lengths of chain between medallions. They are often called "chains of office", because they went with various official jobs. I believe Mayors and like officials still wear them for ceremonious occasions in the UK. Hmm.... might that mean that, somewhere in the UK, they are still being made? Margo _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: MzScahlett@aol.com Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 15:33:04 EST Subject: Re: H-COST: Source for "Garter" necklaces, or "collars" - -Poster: MzScahlett@aol.com In a message dated 3/10/1999 12:27:12 Pacific Standard Time, margo@directcon.net writes: << They are often called "chains of office", because they went with various official jobs. I believe Mayors and like officials still wear them for ceremonious occasions in the UK. Hmm.... might that mean that, somewhere in the UK, they are still being made? >> That's a good idea. I'm also probably going to call the local Shakespeare companies. Both Cal Shakes and Berkley Shakes are probably aware of were to get them, since they do so much period clothing in their shows. Whatever I find, I'll post to the list so we can all benefit.!! angil _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: aleed Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 16:19:03 -0500 (EST) Subject: H-COST: German Tudor question - -Poster: aleed I've been wanting for a while now to make myself a German Tudor outfit similar to those worn by women in Cranach's paintings (http://sunserv.kfki.hu/~arthp/art/c/cranach/lucas_e/portrait/woman.jpg). I think I've got the construction of the outer gown figured out; but for the life of me I can't figure out how the white stomacher section and the embroidered band around the chest underneath the gown work together. I think the white part is the woman's smock or a close-fitting kirtle, but is the embroidered band part of it, pinned on top, or what? If anyone knows of any good articles or books written on the subject of German Tudor, or has theories as to the construction of Cranach's dresses, I'd love to hear them. Thanks, Drea _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Cynthia Bucheger" Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 15:33:58 -0600 Subject: Re: H-COST: German Tudor question - -Poster: "Cynthia Bucheger" Looking at this portrait I would think that the embroidered band is like an under-dress/bodice and the white is a band that goes over the top of it, something like a belt maybe? aleed wrote: > > -Poster: aleed > > I've been wanting for a while now to make myself a German Tudor outfit > similar to those worn by women in Cranach's paintings > (http://sunserv.kfki.hu/~arthp/art/c/cranach/lucas_e/portrait/woman.jpg). > I think I've got the construction of the outer gown figured out; but for > the life of me I can't figure out how the white stomacher section and the > embroidered band around the chest underneath the gown work together. I > think the white part is the woman's smock or a close-fitting kirtle, but > is the embroidered band > part of it, pinned on top, or what? > > If anyone knows of any good articles or books written on the subject of > German Tudor, or has theories as to the construction of Cranach's dresses, > I'd love to hear them. > > Thanks, > > Drea > > _________________________________________________________________ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Heather Law Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 16:39:21 -0800 Subject: H-COST: Crafters Emergency Relief Fund - -Poster: Heather Law *Yoww!* My sympathies to everyone involved. They can probly find out about the CERF (Crafters Emergency Relief Fund) thru one of the craft-marketing magazines (the ones w/articles & info on craft shows, biz- related stuff, etc., not the Country-craftie ones). Decent sized book stores usually have them. Heather > Most shopkeepers were not insured & may not be able to rebuild because > building codes are much stricter now. There is a crafter's relief fund > through a local bank, I don't have details, could find out if anyone wants > to know. I am leaving for San Fran tomorrow, so it would have to wait until > next week. > Here's a link to a news story- I think it still works. > http://www.wcco.com/news/stories/news-990226-064220.html > - --CarolJane in Minneapolis _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Heather Law Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 17:01:11 -0800 Subject: H-COST: burn tests - -Poster: Heather Law Whoops! Thanks for adding the cautions, folks. I "third" the motion... I *really* wouldn't want to see anyone hurt, kicked out of a store, or responsible for burning one dowm just because of some incomplete advice from me... Heatber > Dear List, > > In defense of the employees of the local McFabrics, please ask for a > swatch, they'll cut one for you. > And if you tell them what you are doing, they might help. It's safer for > all concerned. > > I once dripped some "oops, its really not wool, but poly upholstery fabric" > onto my hand and got second degree burns. (It also melted through multiple > layers of poly chiffon.) > Having flaming globs dripping in a fabric store would be dangerous. Please > don't > > Please do not do this within a store. It can cause problems in terms > of fire. If you test something, it should be done in good ventilation > such as out of doors. > > Also, many stores have strict policies about removal of bits of the > fabric even the smallest samples. You could get banned from some > stores "for life" if they catch you. However, most are very willing > to cut you a small swatch (unless it's a *really* expensive fabric > like a $200 a yard silk or something like that. Even then they may > sell you a small bit for less than it would usually cost you to buy > it.) > > Kat _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Jennifer Greene" Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 10:04:01 -0800 Subject: H-COST: Re: Undies Debate - Lisee's Woodcut - -Poster: "Jennifer Greene" Sorry I'm so terribly behind in every mailing list. I have had an *very* busy life of late. Lisee, about the woodcutting your were talking about, could it be that this woman was wearing something for "that time of the month"? After, even if women did not wear any undies during the rest of the time, it's fairly obvisous (at least for women :>) that she would have to wear something then. Random thoughts on the ongoing debate. Jennifer Greene Kamloops, BC, Canada Dona Guinnedolynne Francesca Maria Coccetti (SCA) Chatelaine, Shire of Ramsgaard ==================== No chocolate, no peace! ==================== >lisa/annora wrote: > And speaking of panty lines, here's another question for the great >panty debate. If anyone has Ludmila Kybalova's Pictorial Encyclopedia of >Fashion, what do you think of figure 767? The caption reads > 'Master with the Bandrolle'. Bathing Women. Woodcut. Gothic > women used in general to bathe naked. >Sorry, I can't find any other reference than that. The part of the >woodcut that is shown shows two nude women and another person who is >wearing tie-at-the-hip bikini bottoms. I can't decide whether that >person is a woman or a man. I can't really tell by the hair or face and >the bare breasts could be those of a man or a not-very-busty woman. > > If it's a woman, this is the only picture I've seen that gives >evidence that medieval women wore panties. Has anyone seen the full >woodcut? If we knew what else is in it and the context in which it was >done it would help. Brothel bathhouse scene? Something allegorical? It >kind of looks German to me. The briefs are the same style that I've seen >in some Durer paintings. I'm willing to scan the picture and post it >somewhere if anyone wants to take a look. > > Sorry for rambling on so. I have several shifts that I've been >making do with, but I want to make something that will satisfy my growing >quest for authenticity. > _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Hulett Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 15:13:41 -0800 Subject: RE: H-COST: Angels - -Poster: Hulett I had a sneaking suspicion that was the case, but, sadly it was the only thing I managed to turn up. And I called alot of places. If UK costume shops are anything like LA Costume shops, then it seems to me you'd have to know someone inside to get a pattern. Just a hunch, cheers, jd - -----Original Message----- From: Melanie Wilson [SMTP:MelanieWilson@compuserve.com] Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 1999 10:24 AM To: INTERNET:h-costume-digest@indra.com Subject: H-COST: Angels - -Poster: Melanie Wilson I wish you luck with Angels, but so far all they have ever told me is that I can rent such & such for a hugh amount of money ! As far as I know no patterns. There is a company called kitbag who might make you one, but with the around so cheap why not buy one ? Or are you in the US ? Mel _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Jennifer Greene" Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 10:04:01 -0800 Subject: H-COST: Re: Undies Debate - Lisee's Woodcut - -Poster: "Jennifer Greene" Sorry I'm so terribly behind in every mailing list. I have had an *very* busy life of late. Lisee, about the woodcutting your were talking about, could it be that this woman was wearing something for "that time of the month"? After, even if women did not wear any undies during the rest of the time, it's fairly obvisous (at least for women :>) that she would have to wear something then. Random thoughts on the ongoing debate. Jennifer Greene Kamloops, BC, Canada Dona Guinnedolynne Francesca Maria Coccetti (SCA) Chatelaine, Shire of Ramsgaard ==================== No chocolate, no peace! ==================== >lisa/annora wrote: > And speaking of panty lines, here's another question for the great >panty debate. If anyone has Ludmila Kybalova's Pictorial Encyclopedia of >Fashion, what do you think of figure 767? The caption reads > 'Master with the Bandrolle'. Bathing Women. Woodcut. Gothic > women used in general to bathe naked. >Sorry, I can't find any other reference than that. The part of the >woodcut that is shown shows two nude women and another person who is >wearing tie-at-the-hip bikini bottoms. I can't decide whether that >person is a woman or a man. I can't really tell by the hair or face and >the bare breasts could be those of a man or a not-very-busty woman. > > If it's a woman, this is the only picture I've seen that gives >evidence that medieval women wore panties. Has anyone seen the full >woodcut? If we knew what else is in it and the context in which it was >done it would help. Brothel bathhouse scene? Something allegorical? It >kind of looks German to me. The briefs are the same style that I've seen >in some Durer paintings. I'm willing to scan the picture and post it >somewhere if anyone wants to take a look. > > Sorry for rambling on so. I have several shifts that I've been >making do with, but I want to make something that will satisfy my growing >quest for authenticity. > _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Jennifer Greene" Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 10:04:01 -0800 Subject: H-COST: Re: Undies Debate - Lisee's Woodcut - -Poster: "Jennifer Greene" Sorry I'm so terribly behind in every mailing list. I have had an *very* busy life of late. Lisee, about the woodcutting your were talking about, could it be that this woman was wearing something for "that time of the month"? After, even if women did not wear any undies during the rest of the time, it's fairly obvisous (at least for women :>) that she would have to wear something then. Random thoughts on the ongoing debate. Jennifer Greene Kamloops, BC, Canada Dona Guinnedolynne Francesca Maria Coccetti (SCA) Chatelaine, Shire of Ramsgaard ==================== No chocolate, no peace! ==================== >lisa/annora wrote: > And speaking of panty lines, here's another question for the great >panty debate. If anyone has Ludmila Kybalova's Pictorial Encyclopedia of >Fashion, what do you think of figure 767? The caption reads > 'Master with the Bandrolle'. Bathing Women. Woodcut. Gothic > women used in general to bathe naked. >Sorry, I can't find any other reference than that. The part of the >woodcut that is shown shows two nude women and another person who is >wearing tie-at-the-hip bikini bottoms. I can't decide whether that >person is a woman or a man. I can't really tell by the hair or face and >the bare breasts could be those of a man or a not-very-busty woman. > > If it's a woman, this is the only picture I've seen that gives >evidence that medieval women wore panties. Has anyone seen the full >woodcut? If we knew what else is in it and the context in which it was >done it would help. Brothel bathhouse scene? Something allegorical? It >kind of looks German to me. The briefs are the same style that I've seen >in some Durer paintings. I'm willing to scan the picture and post it >somewhere if anyone wants to take a look. > > Sorry for rambling on so. I have several shifts that I've been >making do with, but I want to make something that will satisfy my growing >quest for authenticity. > _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ End of h-costume-digest V4 #211 ******************************* _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME-DIGEST From ???@??? Thu Mar 11 02:59:22 1999 Received: from mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE (mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE [130.149.4.16]) by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA21695 for ; Thu, 11 Mar 1999 02:48:57 +0100 (MET) Received: from mail.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.15]) by mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10Kuam-00029T-00; Thu, 11 Mar 1999 02:48:56 +0100 Received: from coal.bg.tu-berlin.de by mail.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Thu, 11 Mar 1999 02:48:43 +0100 Received: from mail.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.15]) by mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10KuaW-00029L-01; Thu, 11 Mar 1999 02:48:40 +0100 Received: from tubkom.prz.tu-berlin.de by mail.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Thu, 11 Mar 1999 02:48:29 +0100 Received: from mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE (mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE [130.149.4.16]) by tubkom.prz.tu-berlin.de (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id CAA08462 for ; Thu, 11 Mar 1999 02:47:06 +0100 (MEZ) Received: from mail.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.15]) by mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10KuaG-00029F-00; Thu, 11 Mar 1999 02:48:24 +0100 Received: from server.indra.com by mail.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Thu, 11 Mar 1999 02:48:16 +0100 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.8.5/) with ESMTP id TAA17736; Wed, 10 Mar 1999 19:09:29 -0700 (MST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id SAA02814 for h-costume-digest-outgoing; Wed, 10 Mar 1999 18:46:51 -0700 (MST) Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 18:46:51 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199903110146.SAA02814@indra.com> From: owner-h-costume-digest@indra.com To: h-costume-digest@indra.com Subject: h-costume-digest V4 #212 Reply-To: h-costume-digest@indra.com Errors-To: owner-h-costume-digest@indra.com Precedence: bulk h-costume-digest Wednesday, 10 March 1999 Volume 04 : Number 212 In this issue: H-COST: Re: Undies Debate - Lisee's Woodcut H-COST: Re: Undies Debate - Lisee's Woodcut Re: H-COST: Fibre testing H-COST: Re: Undies Debate - Lisee's Woodcut H-COST: Re: Fiber testing H-COST: Re: Undies Debate - Lisee's Woodcut H-COST: Re: Undies Debate - Lisee's Woodcut H-COST: Re: Undies Debate - Lisee's Woodcut Re: H-COST: Re: Undies Debate - Lisee's Woodcut H-COST: Re: h-costume-digest V4 #211 H-COST: Fw: ANST - Glass Arts Competition at TYC ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Jennifer Greene" Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 10:04:01 -0800 Subject: H-COST: Re: Undies Debate - Lisee's Woodcut - -Poster: "Jennifer Greene" Sorry I'm so terribly behind in every mailing list. I have had an *very* busy life of late. Lisee, about the woodcutting your were talking about, could it be that this woman was wearing something for "that time of the month"? After, even if women did not wear any undies during the rest of the time, it's fairly obvisous (at least for women :>) that she would have to wear something then. Random thoughts on the ongoing debate. Jennifer Greene Kamloops, BC, Canada Dona Guinnedolynne Francesca Maria Coccetti (SCA) Chatelaine, Shire of Ramsgaard ==================== No chocolate, no peace! ==================== >lisa/annora wrote: > And speaking of panty lines, here's another question for the great >panty debate. If anyone has Ludmila Kybalova's Pictorial Encyclopedia of >Fashion, what do you think of figure 767? The caption reads > 'Master with the Bandrolle'. Bathing Women. Woodcut. Gothic > women used in general to bathe naked. >Sorry, I can't find any other reference than that. The part of the >woodcut that is shown shows two nude women and another person who is >wearing tie-at-the-hip bikini bottoms. I can't decide whether that >person is a woman or a man. I can't really tell by the hair or face and >the bare breasts could be those of a man or a not-very-busty woman. > > If it's a woman, this is the only picture I've seen that gives >evidence that medieval women wore panties. Has anyone seen the full >woodcut? If we knew what else is in it and the context in which it was >done it would help. Brothel bathhouse scene? Something allegorical? It >kind of looks German to me. The briefs are the same style that I've seen >in some Durer paintings. I'm willing to scan the picture and post it >somewhere if anyone wants to take a look. > > Sorry for rambling on so. I have several shifts that I've been >making do with, but I want to make something that will satisfy my growing >quest for authenticity. > _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Jennifer Greene" Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 10:04:01 -0800 Subject: H-COST: Re: Undies Debate - Lisee's Woodcut - -Poster: "Jennifer Greene" Sorry I'm so terribly behind in every mailing list. I have had an *very* busy life of late. Lisee, about the woodcutting your were talking about, could it be that this woman was wearing something for "that time of the month"? After, even if women did not wear any undies during the rest of the time, it's fairly obvisous (at least for women :>) that she would have to wear something then. Random thoughts on the ongoing debate. Jennifer Greene Kamloops, BC, Canada Dona Guinnedolynne Francesca Maria Coccetti (SCA) Chatelaine, Shire of Ramsgaard ==================== No chocolate, no peace! ==================== >lisa/annora wrote: > And speaking of panty lines, here's another question for the great >panty debate. If anyone has Ludmila Kybalova's Pictorial Encyclopedia of >Fashion, what do you think of figure 767? The caption reads > 'Master with the Bandrolle'. Bathing Women. Woodcut. Gothic > women used in general to bathe naked. >Sorry, I can't find any other reference than that. The part of the >woodcut that is shown shows two nude women and another person who is >wearing tie-at-the-hip bikini bottoms. I can't decide whether that >person is a woman or a man. I can't really tell by the hair or face and >the bare breasts could be those of a man or a not-very-busty woman. > > If it's a woman, this is the only picture I've seen that gives >evidence that medieval women wore panties. Has anyone seen the full >woodcut? If we knew what else is in it and the context in which it was >done it would help. Brothel bathhouse scene? Something allegorical? It >kind of looks German to me. The briefs are the same style that I've seen >in some Durer paintings. I'm willing to scan the picture and post it >somewhere if anyone wants to take a look. > > Sorry for rambling on so. I have several shifts that I've been >making do with, but I want to make something that will satisfy my growing >quest for authenticity. > _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: AnnBWass@aol.com Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 18:47:30 EST Subject: Re: H-COST: Fibre testing - -Poster: AnnBWass@aol.com In a message dated 3/9/1999 11:04:25 PM Eastern Standard Time, cjcannon@greymists.com writes: > Here in California, at JoAnn's, I have seen some things with labels > that read, for example: 50% linen/50% undetermined fibers. I don't know if > it's legal, but think it must be, at least in this state. Carol Well, no, that is not legal. Fiber content is regulated by federal, not state, law, namely, the Textile Products Identification Act. I don't have the text of the Act handy, but I believe that only up to 5% may be of undetermined fibers. Both JoAnn's and Hancock Fabrics are sometimes guilty of not labeling things properly, or at all. Fibers must be listed in order by weight, with the generic name of the fiber (defined in the Act) given. Fabrics for apparel are also supposed to contain care instructions, which may be specified by a numbered code. Ann Wass _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Jennifer Greene" Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 10:04:01 -0800 Subject: H-COST: Re: Undies Debate - Lisee's Woodcut - -Poster: "Jennifer Greene" Sorry I'm so terribly behind in every mailing list. I have had an *very* busy life of late. Lisee, about the woodcutting your were talking about, could it be that this woman was wearing something for "that time of the month"? After, even if women did not wear any undies during the rest of the time, it's fairly obvisous (at least for women :>) that she would have to wear something then. Random thoughts on the ongoing debate. Jennifer Greene Kamloops, BC, Canada Dona Guinnedolynne Francesca Maria Coccetti (SCA) Chatelaine, Shire of Ramsgaard ==================== No chocolate, no peace! ==================== >lisa/annora wrote: > And speaking of panty lines, here's another question for the great >panty debate. If anyone has Ludmila Kybalova's Pictorial Encyclopedia of >Fashion, what do you think of figure 767? The caption reads > 'Master with the Bandrolle'. Bathing Women. Woodcut. Gothic > women used in general to bathe naked. >Sorry, I can't find any other reference than that. The part of the >woodcut that is shown shows two nude women and another person who is >wearing tie-at-the-hip bikini bottoms. I can't decide whether that >person is a woman or a man. I can't really tell by the hair or face and >the bare breasts could be those of a man or a not-very-busty woman. > > If it's a woman, this is the only picture I've seen that gives >evidence that medieval women wore panties. Has anyone seen the full >woodcut? If we knew what else is in it and the context in which it was >done it would help. Brothel bathhouse scene? Something allegorical? It >kind of looks German to me. The briefs are the same style that I've seen >in some Durer paintings. I'm willing to scan the picture and post it >somewhere if anyone wants to take a look. > > Sorry for rambling on so. I have several shifts that I've been >making do with, but I want to make something that will satisfy my growing >quest for authenticity. > _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Dietmar Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 15:42:43 +0000 Subject: H-COST: Re: Fiber testing - -Poster: Dietmar Greetings, LynnD wrote: > Dear Dietmar, > Sorry for the allergies. It would, indeed, be helpful if you would > post your tests here on the list. There's one vote! Don't feel bad. I have no overwhelming need or desire to wear synthetics, so I don't really feel that I'm missing out. Margery wrote: > I am the author of that particular version of the 'burn-test how to' > (there are a number of them available around the net). I posted it to > rec.org.sca nearly two years ago, I think. I have since moved (twice) > and changed emails, so the email on the message won't match this one. > > I could post it, if you like (or Dietmar is welcome to). The webbed > version will be up on my page soon, link to be posted aas soon as > anything of real interest goes up :) Since it's Margery's work, I'll let her post it here. :-) BTW, thanks for the list. I've used it many times. Regards, Dietmar "Victory or Defeat rests in God's hands; over Honor, we ourselves are Lord and Master." _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Jennifer Greene" Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 10:04:01 -0800 Subject: H-COST: Re: Undies Debate - Lisee's Woodcut - -Poster: "Jennifer Greene" Sorry I'm so terribly behind in every mailing list. I have had an *very* busy life of late. Lisee, about the woodcutting your were talking about, could it be that this woman was wearing something for "that time of the month"? After, even if women did not wear any undies during the rest of the time, it's fairly obvisous (at least for women :>) that she would have to wear something then. Random thoughts on the ongoing debate. Jennifer Greene Kamloops, BC, Canada Dona Guinnedolynne Francesca Maria Coccetti (SCA) Chatelaine, Shire of Ramsgaard ==================== No chocolate, no peace! ==================== >lisa/annora wrote: > And speaking of panty lines, here's another question for the great >panty debate. If anyone has Ludmila Kybalova's Pictorial Encyclopedia of >Fashion, what do you think of figure 767? The caption reads > 'Master with the Bandrolle'. Bathing Women. Woodcut. Gothic > women used in general to bathe naked. >Sorry, I can't find any other reference than that. The part of the >woodcut that is shown shows two nude women and another person who is >wearing tie-at-the-hip bikini bottoms. I can't decide whether that >person is a woman or a man. I can't really tell by the hair or face and >the bare breasts could be those of a man or a not-very-busty woman. > > If it's a woman, this is the only picture I've seen that gives >evidence that medieval women wore panties. Has anyone seen the full >woodcut? If we knew what else is in it and the context in which it was >done it would help. Brothel bathhouse scene? Something allegorical? It >kind of looks German to me. The briefs are the same style that I've seen >in some Durer paintings. I'm willing to scan the picture and post it >somewhere if anyone wants to take a look. > > Sorry for rambling on so. I have several shifts that I've been >making do with, but I want to make something that will satisfy my growing >quest for authenticity. > _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Jennifer Greene" Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 10:04:01 -0800 Subject: H-COST: Re: Undies Debate - Lisee's Woodcut - -Poster: "Jennifer Greene" Sorry I'm so terribly behind in every mailing list. I have had an *very* busy life of late. Lisee, about the woodcutting your were talking about, could it be that this woman was wearing something for "that time of the month"? After, even if women did not wear any undies during the rest of the time, it's fairly obvisous (at least for women :>) that she would have to wear something then. Random thoughts on the ongoing debate. Jennifer Greene Kamloops, BC, Canada Dona Guinnedolynne Francesca Maria Coccetti (SCA) Chatelaine, Shire of Ramsgaard ==================== No chocolate, no peace! ==================== >lisa/annora wrote: > And speaking of panty lines, here's another question for the great >panty debate. If anyone has Ludmila Kybalova's Pictorial Encyclopedia of >Fashion, what do you think of figure 767? The caption reads > 'Master with the Bandrolle'. Bathing Women. Woodcut. Gothic > women used in general to bathe naked. >Sorry, I can't find any other reference than that. The part of the >woodcut that is shown shows two nude women and another person who is >wearing tie-at-the-hip bikini bottoms. I can't decide whether that >person is a woman or a man. I can't really tell by the hair or face and >the bare breasts could be those of a man or a not-very-busty woman. > > If it's a woman, this is the only picture I've seen that gives >evidence that medieval women wore panties. Has anyone seen the full >woodcut? If we knew what else is in it and the context in which it was >done it would help. Brothel bathhouse scene? Something allegorical? It >kind of looks German to me. The briefs are the same style that I've seen >in some Durer paintings. I'm willing to scan the picture and post it >somewhere if anyone wants to take a look. > > Sorry for rambling on so. I have several shifts that I've been >making do with, but I want to make something that will satisfy my growing >quest for authenticity. > _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Jennifer Greene" Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 10:04:01 -0800 Subject: H-COST: Re: Undies Debate - Lisee's Woodcut - -Poster: "Jennifer Greene" Sorry I'm so terribly behind in every mailing list. I have had an *very* busy life of late. Lisee, about the woodcutting your were talking about, could it be that this woman was wearing something for "that time of the month"? After, even if women did not wear any undies during the rest of the time, it's fairly obvisous (at least for women :>) that she would have to wear something then. Random thoughts on the ongoing debate. Jennifer Greene Kamloops, BC, Canada Dona Guinnedolynne Francesca Maria Coccetti (SCA) Chatelaine, Shire of Ramsgaard ==================== No chocolate, no peace! ==================== >lisa/annora wrote: > And speaking of panty lines, here's another question for the great >panty debate. If anyone has Ludmila Kybalova's Pictorial Encyclopedia of >Fashion, what do you think of figure 767? The caption reads > 'Master with the Bandrolle'. Bathing Women. Woodcut. Gothic > women used in general to bathe naked. >Sorry, I can't find any other reference than that. The part of the >woodcut that is shown shows two nude women and another person who is >wearing tie-at-the-hip bikini bottoms. I can't decide whether that >person is a woman or a man. I can't really tell by the hair or face and >the bare breasts could be those of a man or a not-very-busty woman. > > If it's a woman, this is the only picture I've seen that gives >evidence that medieval women wore panties. Has anyone seen the full >woodcut? If we knew what else is in it and the context in which it was >done it would help. Brothel bathhouse scene? Something allegorical? It >kind of looks German to me. The briefs are the same style that I've seen >in some Durer paintings. I'm willing to scan the picture and post it >somewhere if anyone wants to take a look. > > Sorry for rambling on so. I have several shifts that I've been >making do with, but I want to make something that will satisfy my growing >quest for authenticity. > _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: The Purple Elephant Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 11:08:38 +0930 (CST) Subject: Re: H-COST: Re: Undies Debate - Lisee's Woodcut - -Poster: The Purple Elephant On Wed, 10 Mar 1999, Jennifer Greene wrote: > > -Poster: "Jennifer Greene" > > Sorry I'm so terribly behind in every mailing list. I have had an *very* > busy life of late. > > Lisee, about the woodcutting your were talking about, could it be that this > woman was wearing something for "that time of the month"? After, even if > women did not wear any undies during the rest of the time, it's fairly > obvisous (at least for women :>) that she would have to wear something then. > > Random thoughts on the ongoing debate. I have gotten this message 8 times now.....will someone out there quit hitting 'send'....:-) - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Claire F. Clarke "What is this world if, full of care, Physicist, writer, We have no time to stand and stare?" and non environmentally Robert Louis Stevenson friendly substance. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Ariyana Kylstram Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 17:00:32 -0800 (PST) Subject: H-COST: Re: h-costume-digest V4 #211 - -Poster: Ariyana Kylstram For a reproduction of the Order of the Garter Collar, take a look at http://www.web-span.com/lemke/garter/garter_collar.html Given the artisan's specialty, I imagine he could do other collars as well. A friend of a satisfied customer. .ari The Lady Ariyana of House Kylstram ariyana@cats.ucsc.edu http://www.kithrup.com/~ariyana/ _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Franchesca Havas" Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 19:47:13 -0600 Subject: H-COST: Fw: ANST - Glass Arts Competition at TYC - -Poster: "Franchesca Havas" For those of you that talked about the glass aglets here is your chance to show them off!! Sincerely, Ches aka Chiara Francesca Virtual Scribe for 20th year http://www.ansteorra.org/20thyr/ - -----Original Message----- From: Rikki Mitman To: ansteorra@Ansteorra.ORG Date: Wednesday, March 10, 1999 4:39 PM Subject: ANST - Glass Arts Competition at TYC :Please pass this notice on to anyone you think might be interested. : :At Ansteorra's Twentieth Year Celebration, a glass arts competition will be :sponsored by Mistress Teleri ferch Pawl. This is a sub-competition of the :main A&S competition; entrants must specify that they are also entering this :one in order to be judged. : :Entries may fall into one of three categories: Hot/warm glass (including :flameworked, blown, and fused glass, as well as true glass enamels), cold :glass (including stained, etched, mosaic, and engraved glass), and glass :research papers. : :There will be a prize for best overall, as well as one for each of the :divisions. Original works using well-documented period styles and :technologies will be most favored. : :Glass arts entries may also be entered in the overall A&S competition. :Contact Mistress Teleri at esmitman@ghg.net for more information. : :Thanks, : :Teleri : : :=========================================================================== = :Go to http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html to perform mailing list tasks. : _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ End of h-costume-digest V4 #212 ******************************* _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME-DIGEST From ???@??? Fri Mar 12 11:12:03 1999 Received: from mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE (mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE [130.149.4.16]) by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA01075 for ; Thu, 11 Mar 1999 20:22:39 +0100 (MET) Received: from mail.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.15]) by mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10LB2U-0001PJ-00; Thu, 11 Mar 1999 20:22:38 +0100 Received: from coal.bg.tu-berlin.de by mail.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Thu, 11 Mar 1999 20:22:26 +0100 Received: from mail.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.15]) by mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10LB2F-0001P6-00; Thu, 11 Mar 1999 20:22:23 +0100 Received: from tubkom.prz.tu-berlin.de by mail.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Thu, 11 Mar 1999 20:22:12 +0100 Received: from mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE (mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE [130.149.4.16]) by tubkom.prz.tu-berlin.de (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA15404 for ; Thu, 11 Mar 1999 20:20:48 +0100 (MEZ) Received: from mail.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.15]) by mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10LB1y-0001OS-02; Thu, 11 Mar 1999 20:22:06 +0100 Received: from server.indra.com by mail.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Thu, 11 Mar 1999 20:21:23 +0100 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.8.5/) with ESMTP id MAA13099; Thu, 11 Mar 1999 12:43:18 -0700 (MST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id MAA26644 for h-costume-digest-outgoing; Thu, 11 Mar 1999 12:19:41 -0700 (MST) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 12:19:41 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199903111919.MAA26644@indra.com> From: owner-h-costume-digest@indra.com To: h-costume-digest@indra.com Subject: h-costume-digest V4 #213 Reply-To: h-costume-digest@indra.com Errors-To: owner-h-costume-digest@indra.com Precedence: bulk h-costume-digest Thursday, 11 March 1999 Volume 04 : Number 213 In this issue: Re: H-COST: Fibre testing H-COST: RE: Screen-printing silk? Re: H-COST: Elizabethan Traveling Dress Re: H-COST: German Tudor question Re: H-COST: Fibre testing Re: H-COST: RE: Arts/Crafts/Money H-COST: Re: h-costume-digest V4 #211 H-COST: Cotton in a European grave H-COST: Stubbes' Anatomie of Abuses is online H-COST: Re: Undies Debate - Lisee's Woodcut H-COST: collars Re: H-COST: Elizabethan Traveling Dress Re: H-COST: Costumed historians ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Sylvia Rognstad Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 19:19:20 -0700 (MST) Subject: Re: H-COST: Fibre testing - -Poster: Sylvia Rognstad > > -Poster: AnnBWass@aol.com > > In a message dated 3/9/1999 11:04:25 PM Eastern Standard Time, > cjcannon@greymists.com writes: > > > Here in California, at JoAnn's, I have seen some things with labels > > that read, for example: 50% linen/50% undetermined fibers. I don't know if > > it's legal, but think it must be, at least in this state. Carol > Well, no, that is not legal. Fiber content is regulated by federal, not > state, law, namely, the Textile Products Identification Act. I don't have the > text of the Act handy, but I believe that only up to 5% may be of undetermined > fibers. Both JoAnn's and Hancock Fabrics are sometimes guilty of not labeling > things properly, or at all. Fibers must be listed in order by weight, with > the generic name of the fiber (defined in the Act) given. Fabrics for apparel > are also supposed to contain care instructions, which may be specified by a > numbered code. I see this all the time at fabric stores, fibers that are unlabeled. I don't see how the stores can get away with it if its illegal. I thought the federal statutes were only for clothing, not plain fabrics. If it is indeed illegal, I wouldn't mind reporting the store. Sylvia R _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: KATHARINE WHISLER Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 20:36:00 -0600 Subject: H-COST: RE: Screen-printing silk? - -Poster: KATHARINE WHISLER FORWARDED MESSAGE h-costume-digest SA> SA> - -Poster: Sheridan Alder SA> SA> While on the subject of dyeing silk, has any kindred SA> spirit out there, also mildly to moderately deranged, SA> ever screen-printed silk? Like, yards and yards of it? SA> In a really large pattern? SA> ***** NOTES from KATHARINE WHISLER (KWHISLER @ KENTNET) at 3/10/99 1:19 PM At last, a question I can really answer! I spent a lot of time screen-printing yards and yards of fabric back in my art school days. Your biggest problem is not the stencil or the dye/paint. The problem is keeping the pattern on grain. You are going to have to find a way to stretch it out straight, you may need to do it in sections the length of your table. The other issue that will make this a big project is getting each repeat of printing to line up perfectly. Stencils are easy-- though I would recommend clear contact paper on the underside of the screen rather than typing paper-- it lasts longer. (Assuming you want to avoid the whole photo-stencil thing.) Dye/paint-- you are probably better off with paint because it is easier to set the color. It is also your only option if you want to use a metallic color. However, I prefer dye because it has less effect on the hand of the fabric because I don't want it crispy. Let me know if you want 1) specifics, or 2) book recommendations. - --Katharine _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: seamstrix@juno.com Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 20:18:39 -0600 Subject: Re: H-COST: Elizabethan Traveling Dress - -Poster: seamstrix@juno.com On Wed, 10 Mar 1999 09:23:40 -0800 Merouda of Bornover writes: > >-Poster: Merouda of Bornover > >> It's my understanding that during the Elizabethan era, women didn't >wear >> specific riding habits. > >I understand her question to be about clothing to be worn for travel, >not riding. And yes, I think there is a difference. I am interested in how you think that people generally traveled in the Elizabethan era. It is my understanding that horse travel was the accepted mode for just about everyone while on land. Travel by boat was the truly aristocratic and efficient way to go. Did you ever notice that almost all the royal palaces and castles of that era are on the Thames? It was for ease of transportation. Elizabethan roads were in abominable condition, travel by coach was tortuous, they had no springs so every bump and rock was transmitted directly to the occupants. It is thought that Elizabeth actually traveled most of the time by horseback and only used the coaches for grand entrances. The other option was a litter of some sort which could be either borne by strong men or slung between horses. Litters were generally only used by the old or infirm, this does not apply to most of Elizabeth's ladies for most of her reign. Since my understanding is that most travel was done on horseback (by the nobility), then by default most travel clothes were for horseback riding. I don't know if there were special boating outfits. According to QE'S UnL there was only one outfit specifically designated as a ridinghabit and that it appears to have seen heavy wear, given how often is shows up in the records as being repaired. However, she obviously wore other things for riding, since there is no specifically designated riding gown until almost 1568. The ambassador who I mentioned in my previous post was Van Meteren who wrote in 1575 that the English"...don their best clothes, contrary to the practice of other nations." Items mentioned as being used for riding include riding hoods in black velvet and black taffeta, riding cloaks of black wrought velvet, and a black velvet riding kirtle and gown. Ms. Arnold theorizes that the rather masculine styles of doublets and jerkins were originally worn as riding clothes, then became more generally worn. This seems to be a typical pattern with other eras (18th century) showing the same progression. Safeguards are also mentioned as riding wear, but we don't know what they looked like, just that they in some way covered and protected the skirts. In all mention of riding/probable riding outfits for Elizabeth, they are made from elegant and expensive materials and are described as having metallic trims and embroidery. I understand that you cannot generalize too much about what other women were wearing from Elizabeth's wardrobe accounts, but since she was the model of fashion and expected her ladies to be well-dressed (although not better than herself) we can assume that English court ladies did not in fact dress down for riding but wore expensive fabrics and trim in somewhat masculine styles. Karen _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Julie Adams Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 20:47:44 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: H-COST: German Tudor question - -Poster: Julie Adams German _TUDOR_!!!! Egads@@!!! its a Hapsburg reign.. :-) >If anyone knows of any good articles or books written on the subject of >German Tudor, or has theories as to the construction of Cranach's dresses, >I'd love to hear them. In the lingo of the German Renn costumers here on the west coast, we call that a "placket-front Cranach gown". In period its a style common to central Germany, many pictured are from Saxony and would have just been a "rock" (gown). There are a number of paintings that show the placket open in front, baring the breasts to a dagger in "Lucretia" paintings. In these paintings it is clear that the placket is one piece separate from the bodice, that has an embroidered band sewn on the outside top edge. It is not heavily boned and falls softly to the front when the laces are open. The skirts on the "placket-front Cranach gowns" are organ-pipe pleated (most common), and more rarely knife or box pleated. These are cut as a circle skirt with the pleats pinched at the waist and set with weights and stay tapes on the inside to hold their shape. The skirt must be sewn to a ribbon or band (Eliz. Pidgeon-Ontis said she found mention of this in a German source that she couldn't recall off-hand). The band is basted to the inside of the bodice _and_ the placket. The opening is on one side of the front bodice. In the Bayerisches Museum in Nuremberg, there are folk costumes dated about 1650 that are still constructed like the Cranach placket gown. The lacing across the placket is done with special lacing hooks. These are sort of like sideways "S" where the lace is hooked in rather than threaded through for easy access. The laces always stop below the decorative band (which in scale is often the width of the bustline). The bodice hooks to the band with hooks and eyes on the top and bottom of the band on each side of the bust. The sleeves in the upper class gowns are sewn in and most of the puffing is built on a sleeve base. Occasionally there are ones with open armscyes and elbows and the shift bags and puffs out in those places. But in the upper class gowns, you usually see black under the rows of puffs. Unfortunately, IMHO, the gold with black designed fabric seen in most gowns is no longer made. The period examples I saw in Germany on ecclesiastical garments were cloth of gold with the design in narrow velvet lines. Though the lovely Cranach ladies don't seem to be wearing any undergarment support. I can pretty much guarantee that any "woman of substance" will find that the placket and lacing won't lie right unless you are wearing some kind of bodies. I use a corselet which goes under the bust. Julie Adams http://www.znet.com/~savaskan/germans _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Carol J. Bell Cannon" Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 21:10:26 -0800 Subject: Re: H-COST: Fibre testing - -Poster: "Carol J. Bell Cannon" I wanted to thank Ann W. for correcting my misassumption. Carol _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Appin1@aol.com Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 01:04:13 EST Subject: Re: H-COST: RE: Arts/Crafts/Money - -Poster: Appin1@aol.com Marc -- I just wanted to let you know that I recently bought a beautiful pair of hand-made 17th century ladies shoes (red leather) from a professional cordwainer in England. I paid about $230 for them and was damn glad to be able to find a pair of well made, accurate shoes that fit me. I did not complain about the price a bit. It is certainly up to you how you want to handl what you make. I barter costumes for other services (like a leather Elizabethan fencing doublet). But there IS a market out her for well-made historic shoes. Good luck to you and thank you fro sharinf all your knowledge with us. Kathleen Norvell _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "KATE M BUNTING" Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 12:05:06 +0000 Subject: H-COST: Re: h-costume-digest V4 #211 - -Poster: "KATE M BUNTING" Margo wrote: > I=20 They are often called "chains of office", because they went with various official jobs. I believe Mayors and like officials still wear them for ceremonious occasions in the UK. Hmm.... might that mean that, somewhere = in the UK, they are still being made?=20 Yes, mayors do indeed still wear chains of office, either with robes or, = for less formal public appearances, over their modern clothes. Many chains = are historic treasures (the Mayor of Derby's is said to be 17th century), = but nowadays districts as well as towns often have mayors, so someone must = be making new ones. Kate Bunting Library, University of Derby _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: SNSpies@aol.com Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 10:06:34 EST Subject: H-COST: Cotton in a European grave - -Poster: SNSpies@aol.com Hello to the list. In the recent issue of "Archaeological Textiles Newsletter," (ATN 27, Autumn 1998, 12-14) Penelope Walton Rogers writes about "Cotton in a Merovingian Burial in Germany." She points out that cotton rarely enters the picture for European textile researchers and when it does, it usually can be dismissed as a modern contaminant. However, in this case, the identification of cotton comes from a secure context in a Merovingian burial dated to the end of the 5th century, so it is therefore of rather exceptional interest. The cotton is a Z-spun thread which was used to quilt some sort of garment or cover which was made from a wool diamond twill with a padded backing. This textile was found over the whole length of a woman's body in a coffin burial in the Merovingian cemetery at Lauchheim/Ostalbkreis in Baden-Wuerttemberg. She concludes that the presence of this cotton thread suggests some far- reaching link with the eastern Mediterranean or western Asia. It is at present unknown whether the textile arrived in Germany already quilted with the cotton thread or whether the thread arrived in Germany on its own and was then used to quilt the textile. It is also unknown whether it was unpicked from another textile, but further research should answer these questions. Greetings! Ingvild/Nancy _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: aleed Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 10:49:01 -0500 (EST) Subject: H-COST: Stubbes' Anatomie of Abuses is online - -Poster: aleed Just thought I'd drop you costuming bunch a note-- I've collected and transcribed all sections from Stubbes' Anatomie of Abuses (1583) dealing with fashion & costume & the textile industry in Elizabethan England, and put them online at: http://www.dnaco.net/~aleed/corsets/stubbes.html Enjoy! Drea _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Jennifer Greene" Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 10:04:01 -0800 Subject: H-COST: Re: Undies Debate - Lisee's Woodcut - -Poster: "Jennifer Greene" Sorry I'm so terribly behind in every mailing list. I have had an *very* busy life of late. Lisee, about the woodcutting your were talking about, could it be that this woman was wearing something for "that time of the month"? After, even if women did not wear any undies during the rest of the time, it's fairly obvisous (at least for women :>) that she would have to wear something then. Random thoughts on the ongoing debate. Jennifer Greene Kamloops, BC, Canada Dona Guinnedolynne Francesca Maria Coccetti (SCA) Chatelaine, Shire of Ramsgaard ==================== No chocolate, no peace! ==================== >lisa/annora wrote: > And speaking of panty lines, here's another question for the great >panty debate. If anyone has Ludmila Kybalova's Pictorial Encyclopedia of >Fashion, what do you think of figure 767? The caption reads > 'Master with the Bandrolle'. Bathing Women. Woodcut. Gothic > women used in general to bathe naked. >Sorry, I can't find any other reference than that. The part of the >woodcut that is shown shows two nude women and another person who is >wearing tie-at-the-hip bikini bottoms. I can't decide whether that >person is a woman or a man. I can't really tell by the hair or face and >the bare breasts could be those of a man or a not-very-busty woman. > > If it's a woman, this is the only picture I've seen that gives >evidence that medieval women wore panties. Has anyone seen the full >woodcut? If we knew what else is in it and the context in which it was >done it would help. Brothel bathhouse scene? Something allegorical? It >kind of looks German to me. The briefs are the same style that I've seen >in some Durer paintings. I'm willing to scan the picture and post it >somewhere if anyone wants to take a look. > > Sorry for rambling on so. I have several shifts that I've been >making do with, but I want to make something that will satisfy my growing >quest for authenticity. > _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Gaelscot@aol.com Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 11:37:47 EST Subject: H-COST: collars - -Poster: Gaelscot@aol.com I know of several SCA merchants who make lovely men's collars (both finished collars and separate pieces), and I'm certain that there are Rennaissance Faire folk who make them as well. Some merchants will cast or enamel your own design for an extra fee. EVERY SINGLE ONE that I know of is quite expensive -- we are talking a substantial amount of jeweler's work, here! If you are going for a strictly costume look, you can use plaque belts from clothing stores (often cheap at junior's departments or stores), but they're no good up close. Like so many other things, the real thing costs a bundle. Please email me privately if you are interested in my sources. Gail Finke _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Merouda of Bornover Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 10:06:53 -0800 Subject: Re: H-COST: Elizabethan Traveling Dress - -Poster: Merouda of Bornover > >I understand her question to be about clothing to be worn for travel, > >not riding. And yes, I think there is a difference. > > I am interested in how you think that people generally traveled in the > Elizabethan era. This is an excellent question! :) I do assume that they rode horses, walked, had carts, boat, etc.... However, to use Elizabeth's riding habit as a way to determine the traveling dress of nobility or even less of a connection, merchant class or upper middle class, just doesn't fit to me. I do realize however, that I have a lot to learn about Elizabethan. Does anyone know what they would have worn if they weren't the queen and they weren't riding a horse? - -- Cynthia Long Merouda of Bornover Barony of Madrone Kingdom of An Tir _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Jean Waddie Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 20:04:51 +0000 Subject: Re: H-COST: Costumed historians - -Poster: Jean Waddie In message <000c01be6aa1$36186580$484faccf@s0peladn>, "Penny E. Ladnier" writes > >-Poster: "Penny E. Ladnier" > >I am fielding a request from the sixth grade Social Studies teachers at the >middle school where I teach. We are located in Chesterfield, VA (a suburb >of Richmond)... > >The teachers would like volunteer costumed historians who can do >presentations on their special time period. The sixth graders are studying >periods between the Middle Ages to Elizabethan. The teachers would like >their students to learn what costumes were worn, how people generally lived, >what they ate, etc. The teachers are trying their best to involve active >historians in their classes. They would love to take the students to the >Virginia Renn Faire but it is running to late in the school year for field >trips. > >I would love to start a program like this for the seventh grade. They cover >from 1600 to 1900. Right now, they are studying Colonial times. The drama >club is having to learn Patrick Henry's speech. > >If you know anyone who would love a captive audience, please forward my name >to them. This message may be posted to other email lists. Actually, I >taught these students Egyptian costume last semester and they loved it. > >Penny Ladnier >The Costume Gallery >http://www.costumegallery.com > I'm not sure what age sixth grade are (11-12yrs?) but I would thoroughly recommend this to anyone - but do your research! I went in costume to speak to a class 12-13 yr olds, many years ago when I knew even less than I do now. They asked everything - "what do you like to eat?", "what do you do all the time if there's no television?" "how did you know to come here if you don't have a phone?" (They sent a message with a man on a horse). It's really valuable to give children an understanding of how different life was in different times, but be prepared for anything. Good luck, Penny - -- Jean Waddie _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ End of h-costume-digest V4 #213 ******************************* _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME-DIGEST From ???@??? Fri Mar 12 11:12:04 1999 Received: from mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE (mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE [130.149.4.16]) by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id EAA03065 for ; Fri, 12 Mar 1999 04:41:13 +0100 (MET) Received: from mail.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.15]) by mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10LIoy-0006DJ-00; Fri, 12 Mar 1999 04:41:12 +0100 Received: from coal.bg.tu-berlin.de by mail.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Fri, 12 Mar 1999 04:41:00 +0100 Received: from mail.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.15]) by mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10LIoj-0006Bl-00; Fri, 12 Mar 1999 04:40:57 +0100 Received: from tubkom.prz.tu-berlin.de by mail.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Fri, 12 Mar 1999 04:40:43 +0100 Received: from mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE (mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE [130.149.4.16]) by tubkom.prz.tu-berlin.de (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id EAA17685 for ; Fri, 12 Mar 1999 04:39:20 +0100 (MEZ) Received: from mail.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.15]) by mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10LIoR-0006AB-00; Fri, 12 Mar 1999 04:40:39 +0100 Received: from server.indra.com by mail.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Fri, 12 Mar 1999 04:40:36 +0100 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.8.5/) with ESMTP id VAA09930; Thu, 11 Mar 1999 21:03:05 -0700 (MST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id UAA11352 for h-costume-digest-outgoing; Thu, 11 Mar 1999 20:39:13 -0700 (MST) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 20:39:13 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199903120339.UAA11352@indra.com> From: owner-h-costume-digest@indra.com To: h-costume-digest@indra.com Subject: h-costume-digest V4 #214 Reply-To: h-costume-digest@indra.com Errors-To: owner-h-costume-digest@indra.com Precedence: bulk h-costume-digest Thursday, 11 March 1999 Volume 04 : Number 214 In this issue: Re: H-COST: SARIs!!! Re: H-COST: MN Renaissance Festival Fire H-COST: RE: Screen-printing silk? H-COST: chains of office H-COST: glove book H-COST: Thanks: Screen-printing and saris Re: H-COST: Elizabethan Traveling Dress RE: H-COST: RE: Screen-printing silk? H-COST: Re: h-costume-digest V4 #209 H-COST: Source for "Garter" necklaces, or "collars" H-COST: (ot) last call for boning/busk co-order Re: H-COST: (ot) last call for boning/busk co-order ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "StitchWitch" Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 12:12:57 PST Subject: Re: H-COST: SARIs!!! - -Poster: "StitchWitch" > Speaking of... > > for those in the Chicagoland Area... ISP (India Sari Palace... 2534 W. > Devon Ave. Chicago, IL (773) 338-2127 ) is having their once a year > inventory reduction sale now through the 29th of March. > > happy stashing! > Sarahj AAAAAAAAAAaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!! Too bad Seattle is such a commute from Chicago, and my budget is such a shambles right now. I could use some silk for a late 1860's half-mourning gown. Drat! Kate - ---- StitchWitch All things are possible until they are proved impossible - and even the impossible may only be so, as of now. - Pearl S. Buck _______________________________________________________ Get your free, private email at http://mail.excite.com/ _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "StitchWitch" Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 12:31:44 PST Subject: Re: H-COST: MN Renaissance Festival Fire - -Poster: "StitchWitch" > The question was about the recent fire at Mn Renaissance Festival site- > It was arson, no arrests in the news. What a rotten thing to do! Hope they catch whomever did this, and make them clean out the privies for an entire season . . . by hand. I was there at the festival some years ago, and loved it. The openness of the whole place, both physicaly and socialy, were great fun. Got to stay later for the drum circle and dance, too, which was most delightful. (Helps to know one of the participants, though I've sadly lost track of my dear friend. Drat.) Kate - ---- StitchWitch All things are possible until they are proved impossible - and even the impossible may only be so, as of now. - Pearl S. Buck _______________________________________________________ Get your free, private email at http://mail.excite.com/ _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Lynn Meyer Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 12:39:18 -0800 Subject: H-COST: RE: Screen-printing silk? - -Poster: Lynn Meyer Yes, please! This seems like such a great way to reproduce period textile designs! Specifics about brands or types of dyes or paints to use on various fabrics (silk, cotton, wool, linen) would be wonderful. I grabbed some textile paint at the local art store a few years ago, made a basic stencil, and found that I had lots of trouble with the paint spreading. Perhaps my design was simply too small. Also, I didn't use an actual screen or grid at all -- just a hole cut in lightweight cardboard. Is using a screen required? Thanks, Halima ***** NOTES from KATHARINE WHISLER (KWHISLER @ KENTNET) at 3/10/99 1:19 PM At last, a question I can really answer! I spent a lot of time screen-printing yards and yards of fabric back in my art school days. Let me know if you want 1) specifics, or 2) book recommendations. - - --Katharine _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Kara Rodgers Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 17:25:12 -0500 (EST) Subject: H-COST: chains of office - -Poster: Kara Rodgers Another source of chains of office might be through academic regalia suppliers. I have seen a university president in the U.S. wearing this sort of chain, but again, it is likely to be very expensive, made to order, or an antique. Good luck! Kara _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: ches Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 17:07:01 -0600 (CST) Subject: H-COST: glove book - -Poster: ches Does anyone know if there is a difference between Glove Making (1948) and Practical Glove Making (1946)? Both are by Isabel M. Edwards, published by Pitman and Sons of London. Sincerely, F. Havas ches@io.com _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Sheridan Alder Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 18:12:17 -0600 Subject: H-COST: Thanks: Screen-printing and saris - -Poster: Sheridan Alder Thanks to everyone who responded to my question about screen- printing. Yes, Katharine, I would love it if you could suggest some books. It really to hear from real people about real effect they've achieved or seen achieved. However, on Sarah's advice I'll try sari-shopping one more time. I'm really apprehensive about taking on such a major new techique as fabric painting, unless I have to. Regarding saris - I've seen a number that greatly resemble the peach/pink gown on p. 39 (detail on p.41) of "Revolution in Fashion: 1715-1815 or p. 41 Pl. 20 of "The Victoria & Albert Museum's Textile Collection Woven Textile Design in Britain from 1750 to 1850" - those glorious, large floral meanders of the mid-eighteenth century. There are also small spot patterned sair that would make up lovely Regency evening gowns. Needless-to-say, not all saris are appropriate for historic costuming- you should do your homework so you know what patterns to look for. The other disadvantage of saris is that they usually have heavily embroidered edges and ends. I found the sari of my dreams (rich, deep blue (blue is a very spiritual colour;-)) with a soft gold meander which was almost silver) was really only 36 inches wide and 4 1/2 yards long. While I know that women often embroidered their robings in the eighteenth century, I haven't seen any examples,and the dense Indian sari patterns don't look right to my eye. I wouldn't want to use them for this project. But now I'm going to try to see if I can find two saris the same. If not, If I'm unsuccessful, I'll be a paintin' lady instead of a painted lady! Thanks so much, Sheridan KATHARINE WHISLER wrote: > -Poster: KATHARINE WHISLER > > FORWARDED MESSAGE h-costume-digest > SA> > SA> - -Poster: Sheridan Alder > SA> > SA> While on the subject of dyeing silk, has any kindred > SA> spirit out there, also mildly to moderately deranged, > SA> ever screen-printed silk? Like, yards and yards of it? > SA> In a really large pattern? > SA> > ***** NOTES from KATHARINE WHISLER (KWHISLER @ KENTNET) at 3/10/99 1:19 > PM > At last, a question I can really answer! I spent a lot of time > screen-printing yards and yards of fabric back in my art school days. > > Your biggest problem is not the stencil or the dye/paint. The problem is > keeping the pattern on grain. You are going to have to find a way to > stretch it out straight, you may need to do it in sections the length of > your table. > > The other issue that will make this a big project is getting each repeat of > printing to line up perfectly. > > Stencils are easy-- though I would recommend clear contact paper on the > underside of the screen rather than typing paper-- it lasts longer. > (Assuming you want to avoid the whole photo-stencil thing.) > > Dye/paint-- you are probably better off with paint because it is easier to > set the color. It is also your only option if you want to use a metallic > color. However, I prefer dye because it has less effect on the hand of the > fabric because I don't want it crispy. > > Let me know if you want 1) specifics, or 2) book recommendations. > > --Katharine > > _________________________________________________________________ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: seamstrix@juno.com Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 18:53:29 -0600 Subject: Re: H-COST: Elizabethan Traveling Dress - -Poster: seamstrix@juno.com On Thu, 11 Mar 1999 10:06:53 -0800 Merouda of Bornover writes: >This is an excellent question! :) I do assume that they rode horses, >walked, had carts, boat, etc.... However, to use Elizabeth's riding >habit as a way to determine the traveling dress of nobility or even less of a >connection, merchant class or upper middle class, just doesn't fit to >me. I do realize however, that I have a lot to learn about Elizabethan. Who do you think set the fashions? Her Maj! The fashion options were following her Maj or follow fashions from Europe, but, according to the ambassador I quoted previously, the English did not follow Continental fashions for riding. So that leaves Her Maj as the fashion arbiter of her age. Now any kind of generalization is of course fraught with peril because we honestly don't know many things about what was worn during the Elizabethan era. However I think that we all need to be careful about using our value system to determine what 'makes sense' for a different era. The Queen was the one who set the mode, there were no fashion designers, there were no actresses setting a style, there were no 'street styles' crawling up from the gutter. Court was fashion. Even the middle classes aped the nobility as best as they were able. The lower one goes on the socio-economic scale, the less likely people are to have 'special purpose' clothing, the middle and lower classes wore what they had. Karen _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Hope H. Dunlap" Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 20:22:40 -0500 Subject: RE: H-COST: RE: Screen-printing silk? - -Poster: "Hope H. Dunlap" A screen is not required, but it really helps for large areas, complex patterns, and higher quality printing. With a card, you have to use a stiff brush with a flat end and tipple the paint into the fabric through the hole. It takes time, and if the cardboard isn't perfectly flat and tight to the fabric, paint can get on it's underside at the edge of the cut and smear the edge of your pattern. It works, but its too much trouble. A much more successfull fast and dirty method is to cut up pink pearl, grean, and white erasers from the stationery department of K-mart, press into the ink which has been rolled thin on a glass plate, and then stamp it onto your fabric. It's easier, and the results are far superior. Even a potato will work and it's more successful than a stencil too. The right textile paint will not spread. If yours spread, it was a dye, overly thinned, or just not intended for that textile. Printing on cotton linen or silk is pretty foolproof, but I've had a lot of trouble matching paints to synthetics, where I've had terrible problems with running. I decided never to use synthetics again, so eliminated the problem in that manner. The right paint is the consistency of sour cream or even thicker. And no almost no design is too small except maybe the finest copperplate style print. I find the texture of the fabric is more limiting to the sharpness of the design than the screen itself -- If you could cut the design out of a cardboard card, you could certainly silkscreen it with a crisp edge to the pattern. I haven't done this in years, and I doubt the materials I used thirty years ago are even available now. One brand I used for cotton was Prang. For my screen, I used silk organdy made for silk screening, a hand-built frame, and a big squeegee, maybe 1/3 the width of the frame. I remember cutting the pattern out of purchased sheets of paper covered with a thin coat of polymer or gel. I put my multi colored pattern on a desk and put the gelled paper over it. I could see the pattern through the gel paper, facilitating the cutting. I cut through the gel layer with an exacto knife, peeling away the bits I didn't need, leaving the paper backing. Then I put the gel on paper under the screen and applied a solvent, which melted the gel and simultaneously adhered it to the organdy. After the gel set up again, the paper backing was peeled away. Lines the thickness of a knife blade could be transferred as well as solid areas. I remember making 150 prints of a poster from a single set of gels once, and we quit because we didn't need any more, the gels could easily have gone 500 or even more. For each successive color, I cut a separate gel, dissolved the previous one off the screen, and applied the new gel immediately. We waited 24 hours between each different color to allow the paint to dry completely. I learned the technique and did all of my work in high school. The techniques were trivial to learn, once anyone saw you doing it, and I taught a stream of junior and senior high school students to do it simply by watching a minute or two and then doing it themselves. We never had any trouble aligning the colors because we marked each gel layer with the same tiny dots in the four corners. You just had to stack em up. Really. It always surprised us, as it seems like it would always be a big risk. But not at all. I never once saw anybody screw up the alignment. My screen was hinged to a rigid plywood back. It helps to tape a thin cardboard frame to the back to slip the poster board into. It really helps with the alignment. You can do this in two parallel cardboard strips to slip your fabric through, or just rely on the stacked dots. In the design school I was in recently, they had a 70 + or - foot long table with metal tracks each side which aligned the frame properly as it moved down the 70 foot length of fabric length. Lots of silk screened designs leave a little space between panels for the frame to sit in which speeds printing, allowing the whole length to be printed in the same hour. Seamless pattern block alignment and a continuous pattern are easy if you can wait for the paint to dry, but it adds time to the process. Hope H. Dunlap - -----Original Message----- From: owner-h-costume@indra.com [mailto:owner-h-costume@indra.com]On Behalf Of Lynn Meyer Sent: Thursday, March 11, 1999 3:39 PM To: h-costume-digest@indra.com Subject: H-COST: RE: Screen-printing silk? - -Poster: Lynn Meyer Yes, please! This seems like such a great way to reproduce period textile designs! Specifics about brands or types of dyes or paints to use on various fabrics (silk, cotton, wool, linen) would be wonderful. I grabbed some textile paint at the local art store a few years ago, made a basic stencil, and found that I had lots of trouble with the paint spreading. Perhaps my design was simply too small. Also, I didn't use an actual screen or grid at all -- just a hole cut in lightweight cardboard. Is using a screen required? Thanks, Halima ***** NOTES from KATHARINE WHISLER (KWHISLER @ KENTNET) at 3/10/99 1:19 PM At last, a question I can really answer! I spent a lot of time screen-printing yards and yards of fabric back in my art school days. Let me know if you want 1) specifics, or 2) book recommendations. - - --Katharine ____________________________________________________________ _____ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Marsha McLean Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 20:55:14 -0500 (EST) Subject: H-COST: Re: h-costume-digest V4 #209 - -Poster: Marsha McLean >- -Poster: "Andrea Gideon" >-Poster: Marsha McLean >> >>Janet Arnold stated at one of her talks here in Toronto: >>"Brocaded silk saris are the closest modern equivalent to period silk >brocade" > >Which period? > >Andrea > >OOPS! Sorry, Renaissance/16th century. >Marsha _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Marsha McLean Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 20:59:30 -0500 (EST) Subject: H-COST: Source for "Garter" necklaces, or "collars" - -Poster: Marsha McLean - - -Poster: MzScahlett@aol.com Can anyone point me in the direction of a source for men's Elizabethan jeweled "garters" (those lovely heavy 2-3" wide "collars" worn over their clothing? You know, that oversized gold necklace that you always see Henry VIII wearing? If there is a better name than garter or collar, please enlighten me. I just want to know where I can get one or more of them. Hate to be repetitive or repetitive or... :) , but again, Sari Stores. Some of them sell lovely belts to be worn with the 2 piece suits. These can be perfect. Also, turban ornaments make great hat brooches. _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Pompadour Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 11:35:29 +0000 Subject: H-COST: (ot) last call for boning/busk co-order - -Poster: Pompadour fair folk, sorry for repeating this on the list but, well... our co-ordering group still has some 'openings'... and this time i can provide you with prices. maybe they'll convince some people who come forth yet. the supplier is in germany, so the proces are in DEM: plastic boning: 6 x 1 mm 0.340 /metre 10 x 1 mm 0.545 /metre stainless steel straight busk: 30 cm 4.00 /piece contact me off-list if you're interested. salut! marquise_de_pompadour@gmx.net - www.costumegallery.com/pompadour/ _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Anah Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 22:34:40 -0500 Subject: Re: H-COST: (ot) last call for boning/busk co-order - -Poster: Anah how many nails are on the busk? I am DEFINATELY INTERESTED.... especially if it is 6 nails. Pompadour wrote: > > -Poster: Pompadour > > fair folk, > > sorry for repeating this on the list but, well... our co-ordering group still > has some 'openings'... > and this time i can provide you with prices. maybe they'll convince some > people > who come forth yet. > > the supplier is in germany, so the proces are in DEM: > plastic boning: > 6 x 1 mm 0.340 /metre > 10 x 1 mm 0.545 /metre > stainless steel straight busk: > 30 cm 4.00 /piece > > contact me off-list if you're interested. > > salut! > > marquise_de_pompadour@gmx.net - www.costumegallery.com/pompadour/ > > _________________________________________________________________ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ End of h-costume-digest V4 #214 ******************************* _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME-DIGEST From ???@??? Tue Mar 16 11:16:53 1999 Received: from mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE (mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE [130.149.4.16]) by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA12490 for ; Sat, 13 Mar 1999 01:39:17 +0100 (MET) Received: from mail.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.15]) by mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10LcSR-0006Wo-00; Sat, 13 Mar 1999 01:39:15 +0100 Received: from coal.bg.tu-berlin.de by mail.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Sat, 13 Mar 1999 01:39:10 +0100 Received: from mail2.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.14]) by mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10LcSI-0006We-00; Sat, 13 Mar 1999 01:39:06 +0100 Received: from tubkom.prz.tu-berlin.de by mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Sat, 13 Mar 1999 01:39:04 +0100 Received: from mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE (mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE [130.149.4.16]) by tubkom.prz.tu-berlin.de (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA26110 for ; Sat, 13 Mar 1999 01:37:34 +0100 (MEZ) Received: from mail.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.15]) by mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10LcS2-0006WP-00; Sat, 13 Mar 1999 01:38:50 +0100 Received: from server.indra.com by mail.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Sat, 13 Mar 1999 01:38:34 +0100 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.8.5/) with ESMTP id SAA23390; Fri, 12 Mar 1999 18:03:55 -0700 (MST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id RAA18930 for h-costume-digest-outgoing; Fri, 12 Mar 1999 17:37:11 -0700 (MST) Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 17:37:11 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199903130037.RAA18930@indra.com> From: owner-h-costume-digest@indra.com To: h-costume-digest@indra.com Subject: h-costume-digest V4 #215 Reply-To: h-costume-digest@indra.com Errors-To: owner-h-costume-digest@indra.com Precedence: bulk Status: O h-costume-digest Friday, 12 March 1999 Volume 04 : Number 215 In this issue: Re: H-COST: ISO Regency costumes Re: H-COST: RE: Screen-printing silk? RE: H-COST: RE: Screen-printing silk? H-COST: Costume history College Program? H-COST: Overview sources Re: H-COST: Overview sources H-COST: Stubbes On-line Re: H-COST: glove book H-COST: FO: A real, live human being! H-COST: Bead Alert! Re: H-COST: FO: A real, live human being! H-COST: Costume Collections world wide H-COST: FO: A real, live human being! Re: H-COST: Costume Collections world wide H-COST: Costume Studies.. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Appin1@aol.com Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 22:38:34 EST Subject: Re: H-COST: ISO Regency costumes - -Poster: Appin1@aol.com Jessica -- Contact me off-list. Maybe I can help you. KAthleen Norvell _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Sara J. Davitt" Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 01:40:06 -0600 (CST) Subject: Re: H-COST: RE: Screen-printing silk? - -Poster: "Sara J. Davitt" > I grabbed some textile paint at the local art store a few years ago, > made a basic stencil, and found that I had lots of trouble with > the paint spreading. Perhaps my design was simply too small. > > Also, I didn't use an actual screen or grid at all -- just a hole > cut in lightweight cardboard. Is using a screen required? - ---- the difference with stenciling with cardboard/stencil kits, is that you are painting directly INTO the fabric. and once it gets into the fibres.. it spreads... (the secret is NO water-- change colors by washing --then DRYING your brush before moving on) Screenprinting A) uses a thicker 'paint' that sits on top of the surface of the fabric, and does not absorb... B) is applied very quickly, (by pulling the 'squegee over the screen and pushing the ink through the miniscule holes onto the fabric) c) does not have a problem with 'floating stencils.. like the letter 'O' can be printed, without the 'blocked out center being seperate, or having to be supported like stained glass--with connecting lines. Oh, and for others who might want to paint on fabric... I forget if I had mentioned it before.. Liquitex, CONCENTRATED acrylic paints are the best, last the forever, and are premixed to a nearly perfect consistency for fabric painting. ( I used to work for an interior designer who was famous for handpainting with the stuff... eg. CLIENT: I LOVE that fabric.. except.. I wish those little tiny birdies were Blue--not red. CAROL GRESKO: I will handpaint out EVERy little Red birdie, and make it Blue... and it will cost you. But you will love it. :-) The other trick with painting with acrylics is not to paint too thickly. don't bother building up and impasto surface.... make is smooth... just add color. and make sure it is liquified enough to get INTO the fabric.. but not so much that it is runny. ( sometimes starches help keep things in line, and to protect the fabric from bleeding--- Also if painting something very delicate and needing a pristine edge.. paint with clear medium first around the border, and non-compromisable areas (thinly) It will help you maintain those boundaries. Goodluck!.. and always TEST FIRST! Sarahj _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Sara J. Davitt" Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 01:51:07 -0600 (CST) Subject: RE: H-COST: RE: Screen-printing silk? - -Poster: "Sara J. Davitt" OH... for those that want to make thier own stencils... things to try are: acetate/mylar Contact paper--- sticks to the place where you put it, though the fuzzies take over.. so unless you have a couple of exacto blades and a purpouse...this is best for small er/more intricate processes. Also, it's been a while since I had thought about elmers glue... but paint with the glue that which you DON't want colored... fill in with paint, and was out... (haven't tried it.. but it SHOULd work in priciple) someone metioned erasers for block printing.... a well planned design would create a more period look (milti colors are possible too!) use a good quality brayer.. be sure to roll evenly. And when you want to add a second color. (either trace design onto linoleum with carbon paper.) or, make one plate, print it... then while paper is still went... line up fresh block on top of it and 'offset' the ink onto the crlan plate from the printed paper.... then cut around it. ok... enough talking... :-) Sarahj **2Y's**UR**2Y's**UB**IC**UR**2Y's**4Me** _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Bill and/or Glenna Jo Christen Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 02:39:45 -0500 Subject: H-COST: Costume history College Program? - -Poster: Bill and/or Glenna Jo Christen Can anyone recommend a College or University that offers a good graduate program in costume history. A friend of mine is sophomore in college taking a history and theater double major and is planning ahead. Thanks! Glenna Jo Christen gwjchris@rust.net Visit our web site, "The Curiosity Shop" http://www.rust.net/~gwjchris/ _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Robin Netherton Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 09:43:10 -0500 (EST) Subject: H-COST: Overview sources - -Poster: Robin Netherton I'm helping put together a reading list for 14- to 16-year-olds studying history, and we'd like to include something on costume. We're looking for a good overview that covers at least medieval and Renaissance/Elizabethan, and later centuries if possible. This is NOT for people trying to sew costume, but for kids who are interested in seeing what people wore. They may not have much background in history -- think of the average 9th and 10th graders you know. Which books do you think give the best general overview, are easy to follow, and are accurate enough not to imprint the old myths on these kids? I would prefer to avoid any book that relies on redrawings rather than primary sources (so things like Wilcox, Lister, Peacock, and Bradfield are right out). The books should be available in libraries (so no Queen Elizabeth's Wardrobe Unlock'd). I'm thinking of Boucher, Black & Garland, maybe some others. Thoughts? - --Robin ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: Robin Netherton :::::::: Editor at Large :::::::: robin@dgsys.com :::::::::::::::: Life is just a bowl of queries. :::::::::::::::: ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: AliaClaire@aol.com Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 10:06:19 EST Subject: Re: H-COST: Overview sources - -Poster: AliaClaire@aol.com In a message dated 3/12/99 9:45:08 AM EST, robin@dgsys.com writes: > - think of the average 9th and > 10th graders you know. Do I have to? I'm only a senior, and I still have classes with some of them :p > Which books do you think give the best general overview, are easy to > follow, and are accurate enough not to imprint the old myths on these > kids? > > I'm thinking of Boucher, Black & Garland, maybe some others. Thoughts? The one that springs to my mind is Jane Ashelford's The Art of Dress. I found it in a library, so that shouldn't be too big of a problem. The pictures are FABULOUS (I want the cream embroidered regency gown!), although it could stand to have a few more of them. The text seemed pretty responsible to me, although obviously not all of those areas are my forte. - -Alison Stacy AliaClaire@aol.com Canton, Ohio _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Linda Thompson Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 11:13:31 -0600 Subject: H-COST: Stubbes On-line - -Poster: Linda Thompson I just have to say Aleed... you are wonderful.. just stopped by "Stubbes"... My next question is, how do people find the time to do this stuff.. I'm lucky to find the time to read the list. thankyou Linda _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Fred Struthers Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 09:57:37 -0800 Subject: Re: H-COST: glove book - -Poster: Fred Struthers > Does anyone know if there is a difference between Glove Making (1948) and > Practical Glove Making (1946)? Both are by Isabel M. Edwards, published by > Pitman and Sons of London. Usually a title chg would indicate a revision, but this doesn't seem to be the case. I think the publishers just dropped the "practical". In fact on the copy I have, the book jacket has one title and the book itself the other. This book was first published in 1926 and had been printed and reprinted and then revised in 1938, and Seligman says, also in 1946. As many times as I've carried this book we have not noted on our cards any revisions, so they must be barely significant. Of sourse the book is so scarce that to have both on hand to compare is nearly impossible! This is an instance when Kevin Seligman's book is invaluable (CUTTING FOR ALL - a bibliographic reference guide for sartorial arts, related crafts ahd commercial parper patterns. I recommend this book - I use it all the time in my work as a costume bookseller - I don't sell it by the way - you can order it thru your bookstore (Southern IL Univ Press)...... FS - -- Fred Struthers http://www.mcn.org/e/fsbks _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Jennie Chancey Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 13:05:57 -0500 Subject: H-COST: FO: A real, live human being! - -Poster: Jennie Chancey I went into "lurk mode" this year, since I was expecting a new baby in March. I'm happy to report the birth of William Alexander Chancey, who arrived on March 4th. He is a sweet little man, and we're enjoying him. Thank you to all the list-ers who have sent well wishes during my pregnancy. :-) There are photos of Alex at http://www.sensibility.com/wac. He's my latest "finished object!" Cheers, Jennie Chancey - -- Sense and Sensibility http://www.sensibility.com winsome clothing with an old-fashioned appeal _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "StitchWitch" Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 10:28:18 PST Subject: H-COST: Bead Alert! - -Poster: "StitchWitch" Hello! I almost forgot to pass this along to this list. (Shame on me!) This July 14-18 in Portland, Oregon, will be held the Embellishments bead extravaganza. Admission is $5, and it will be at the convention center. Lots of shopping for beads and antique buttons, as well as displays, competitions, demonstrations and workshops. (The workshops are a pre-reg item, with a separate fee schedule.) I don't have the flyer on hand at the moment, but can post further information later if anyone needs it. Let the feeding frenzy begin! Kate - ---- StitchWitch All things are possible until they are proved impossible - and even the impossible may only be so, as of now. - Pearl S. Buck _______________________________________________________ Get your free, private email at http://mail.excite.com/ _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Sue Shatto Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 17:32:32 -0500 Subject: Re: H-COST: FO: A real, live human being! - -Poster: Sue Shatto Jennie, What a beautiful baby! At 01:05 PM 3/12/99 -0500, you wrote: > >-Poster: Jennie Chancey > >I went into "lurk mode" this year, since I was expecting a new baby in >March. I'm happy to report the birth of William Alexander Chancey, who >arrived on March 4th. He is a sweet little man, and we're enjoying >him. Thank you to all the list-ers who have sent well wishes during my >pregnancy. :-) Cordially, Sue Shatto Sue@VictorianMillinery.com http://www.VictorianMillinery.com _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: WICKHAM Raymond Date: Sat, 13 Mar 1999 11:03:32 +1100 Subject: H-COST: Costume Collections world wide - -Poster: WICKHAM Raymond Just a suggestion BUT If you want to keep an ear out for spacial access to costume collections etc why not join The Group for Costume and Textile staff in museums: This group promotes and disseminates knowledge of and expertise in all the techniques and materials related to the care of historic costume and textiles (ie they have access and know where these are for gentles who wish to further their tour) This is a self help group. Anyone who has a costume and or a textile collection whether employed or volunteering in either a specialist or non specialist capacity can become members. There is an annual conference, regional meeting, and 2 newsletters a year 10Pds Fashion Research centre 4 The Circus Bath Avon BA1 2EW Just a thought Ray _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Jennie Chancey Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 13:08:20 -0500 Subject: H-COST: FO: A real, live human being! - -Poster: Jennie Chancey I went into "lurk mode" this year, since I was expecting a new baby in March. I'm happy to report the birth of William Alexander Chancey, who arrived on March 4th. He is a sweet little man, and we're enjoying him. Thank you to all the list-ers who have sent well wishes during my pregnancy. :-) There are photos of Alex at http://www.sensibility.com/wac. He's my latest "finished object!" Cheers, Jennie Chancey - -- Sense and Sensibility http://www.sensibility.com winsome clothing with an old-fashioned appeal _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Lauren Towers Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 16:33:09 -0800 Subject: Re: H-COST: Costume Collections world wide - -Poster: Lauren Towers Hello all! Can anyone from anywhere join? Lauren > Just a suggestion > BUT > If you want to keep an ear out for spacial access to costume > collections etc > why not join > The Group for Costume and Textile staff in museums: This group promotes > and disseminates knowledge of and expertise in all the techniques and > materials related to the care of historic costume and textiles (ie they > have access and know where these are for gentles who wish to further > their tour) This is a self help group. Anyone who has a costume and or a > textile collection whether employed or volunteering in either a > specialist or non specialist capacity can become members. > There is an annual conference, regional meeting, and 2 newsletters a > year 10Pds > Fashion Research centre 4 The Circus Bath Avon BA1 2EW > > Just a thought > > Ray > _________________________________________________________________ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Lauren Towers Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 16:37:08 -0800 Subject: H-COST: Costume Studies.. - -Poster: Lauren Towers Hello! I am hoping to get into the Costume Studies Program at Dalhousie university and I was wondering if anyone here had either taken or knew of the program and if they had any input? Or if anyone knows of any other programs that are specific to historical costuming? Thanks! Lauren _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ End of h-costume-digest V4 #215 ******************************* _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME-DIGEST From ???@??? Tue Mar 16 11:16:54 1999 Received: from mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE (mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE [130.149.4.16]) by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA16245 for ; Sat, 13 Mar 1999 22:16:09 +0100 (MET) Received: from mail.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.15]) by mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10LvlP-0005Mb-00; Sat, 13 Mar 1999 22:16:07 +0100 Received: from coal.bg.tu-berlin.de by mail.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Sat, 13 Mar 1999 22:15:03 +0100 Received: from mail2.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.14]) by mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10LvkI-0005Lw-00; Sat, 13 Mar 1999 22:14:59 +0100 Received: from tubkom.prz.tu-berlin.de by mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Sat, 13 Mar 1999 22:14:55 +0100 Received: from mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE (mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE [130.149.4.16]) by tubkom.prz.tu-berlin.de (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA29134 for ; Sat, 13 Mar 1999 22:13:31 +0100 (MEZ) Received: from mail.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.15]) by mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10LvkC-0005Lt-00; Sat, 13 Mar 1999 22:14:52 +0100 Received: from server.indra.com by mail.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Sat, 13 Mar 1999 22:14:46 +0100 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.8.5/) with ESMTP id OAA17751; Sat, 13 Mar 1999 14:43:00 -0700 (MST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id OAA23135 for h-costume-digest-outgoing; Sat, 13 Mar 1999 14:13:23 -0700 (MST) Date: Sat, 13 Mar 1999 14:13:23 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199903132113.OAA23135@indra.com> From: owner-h-costume-digest@indra.com To: h-costume-digest@indra.com Subject: h-costume-digest V4 #216 Reply-To: h-costume-digest@indra.com Errors-To: owner-h-costume-digest@indra.com Precedence: bulk Status: O h-costume-digest Saturday, 13 March 1999 Volume 04 : Number 216 In this issue: RE: H-COST: FO: A real, live human being! H-COST: Costume Collections world wide Re: H-COST: Cotton in a European grave H-COST: Costume Studies...Dal. Univ. Re: H-COST: FO: A real, live human being! Re: H-COST: Overview sources Re: H-COST: Elizabethan Traveling Dress H-COST: Stubbes and scarves H-COST: Re: partlet or shirt? Re: H-COST: Stubbes and scarves RE: H-COST: Cotton in a European grave Re: H-COST: Re: partlet or shirt? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Hope H. Dunlap" Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 19:43:03 -0500 Subject: RE: H-COST: FO: A real, live human being! - -Poster: "Hope H. Dunlap" Jennie, He's simply a treasure. Thanks for putting him up on the Web! I think a star was born here... Hope - -----Original Message----- From: owner-h-costume@indra.com [mailto:owner-h-costume@indra.com]On Behalf Of Jennie Chancey Sent: Friday, March 12, 1999 1:08 PM To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: H-COST: FO: A real, live human being! - -Poster: Jennie Chancey I went into "lurk mode" this year, since I was expecting a new baby in March. I'm happy to report the birth of William Alexander Chancey, who arrived on March 4th. He is a sweet little man, and we're enjoying him. Thank you to all the list-ers who have sent well wishes during my pregnancy. :-) There are photos of Alex at http://www.sensibility.com/wac. He's my latest "finished object!" Cheers, Jennie Chancey - -- Sense and Sensibility http://www.sensibility.com winsome clothing with an old-fashioned appeal ____________________________________________________________ _____ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: WICKHAM Raymond Date: Sat, 13 Mar 1999 12:58:29 +1100 Subject: H-COST: Costume Collections world wide - -Poster: WICKHAM Raymond Lauren Towers asked Can anyone from anywhere join? I get this info second hand but I believe that your answer is in the info I joined because they promote and disseminate knowledge and slyly get invited to hands on sessions with people on clothing and costume maintenance. On another level I have a list of costume and sewing related world wide organisations that you can join Info available on request But then I think like this ray _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Mara Riley Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 20:27:03 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: H-COST: Cotton in a European grave - -Poster: Mara Riley Well, if silk made it to the West via the trade routes, why not cotton? Unusual, yes, but not entirely impossible. Mara On Thu, 11 Mar 1999 SNSpies@aol.com wrote: > > -Poster: SNSpies@aol.com > > Hello to the list. > > In the recent issue of "Archaeological Textiles Newsletter," (ATN 27, Autumn > 1998, 12-14) Penelope Walton Rogers writes about "Cotton in a Merovingian > Burial in Germany." She points out that cotton rarely enters the picture for > European textile researchers and when it does, it usually can be dismissed as > a modern contaminant. However, in this case, the identification of cotton > comes from a secure context in a Merovingian burial dated to the end of the > 5th century, so it is therefore of rather exceptional interest. > > The cotton is a Z-spun thread which was used to quilt some sort of garment or > cover which was made from a wool diamond twill with a padded backing. This > textile was found over the whole length of a woman's body in a coffin burial > in the Merovingian cemetery at Lauchheim/Ostalbkreis in Baden-Wuerttemberg. > > She concludes that the presence of this cotton thread suggests some far- > reaching link with the eastern Mediterranean or western Asia. It is at > present unknown whether the textile arrived in Germany already quilted with > the cotton thread or whether the thread arrived in Germany on its own and was > then used to quilt the textile. It is also unknown whether it was unpicked > from another textile, but further research should answer these questions. > > Greetings! > Ingvild/Nancy > _________________________________________________________________ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME > _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Vestido6@aol.com Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 20:55:46 EST Subject: H-COST: Costume Studies...Dal. Univ. - -Poster: Vestido6@aol.com Lauren: I graduated from Costume Studies at Dalhousie University last year and my daughter the year before me. It is a great program that is very demanding. I wish I were still there I loved so much. Please email me privately and we can discuss specifics if you would like. Dianne Kristoff _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: cynthia j ley Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 21:08:38 EST Subject: Re: H-COST: FO: A real, live human being! - -Poster: cynthia j ley Congratulations! blessings to you and your family! Arlys On Fri, 12 Mar 1999 13:08:20 -0500 Jennie Chancey writes: > >-Poster: Jennie Chancey > >I went into "lurk mode" this year, since I was expecting a new baby in >March. I'm happy to report the birth of William Alexander Chancey, >who >arrived on March 4th. He is a sweet little man, and we're enjoying >him. Thank you to all the list-ers who have sent well wishes during >my >pregnancy. :-) > >There are photos of Alex at http://www.sensibility.com/wac. He's my >latest "finished object!" > >Cheers, >Jennie Chancey >-- >Sense and Sensibility >http://www.sensibility.com >winsome clothing with an old-fashioned appeal > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME > ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: kathleen@niagara.com Date: Sat, 13 Mar 1999 15:35:07 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: H-COST: Overview sources - -Poster: kathleen@niagara.com >I'm helping put together a reading list for 14- to 16-year-olds studying >history, and we'd like to include something on costume. > >Which books do you think give the best general overview, are easy to >follow, and are accurate enough not to imprint the old myths on these >kids? For overview, I like Blanche Payne's "History of Costume - from the Ancient Egyptians to the Twentieth Century" She shows primary sources, has a few patterns from primary sources in the back, does a general overview divided into men's and women's, and divides up the century into three or four parts. Her writing style is nice, she explains unusual words, she attributes constantly and may describe different theories of different costume researchers, and best of all...the volume won't break your back carrying it home from the library! (Do you know I've never really looked at Boucher, simply because of the sheer daunting size of carrying it?) Kathleen/Catriona () _/)(\_ "Tehee!" quod she, and clapte the wyndow to /~~\ /____\ _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: kathleen@niagara.com Date: Sat, 13 Mar 1999 15:35:14 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: H-COST: Elizabethan Traveling Dress - -Poster: kathleen@niagara.com >>I understand her question to be about clothing to be worn for travel, >>not riding. And yes, I think there is a difference. > >I am interested in how you think that people generally traveled in the >Elizabethan era. I'll snatch this opportunity to defend Norris again... ;) One thing I love about his work is that he discussed things related to costume, i.e. travelling methods, furniture, textiles and tapestry colours. So anyone who really *does* want to investigate travelling methods, might want to start with Norris and go on from there. Kathleen/Catriona () _/)(\_ "Tehee!" quod she, and clapte the wyndow to /~~\ /____\ _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: kathleen@niagara.com Date: Sat, 13 Mar 1999 15:35:45 -0500 (EST) Subject: H-COST: Stubbes and scarves - -Poster: kathleen@niagara.com Is Stubbes in print anywhere? I picked it up ILL, but I want to own it... Second question. Stubbes talks about protection from sunburning, and how women wear scarves of gold, silver or silk "cast about their faces and fluttering in the wind with great tassels at every end" I picture this being worn over the head, with the ends crossed in front. Has anyone seen pictorial evidence of these scarves? Kathleen/Catriona () _/)(\_ "Tehee!" quod she, and clapte the wyndow to /~~\ /____\ _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: kathleen@niagara.com Date: Sat, 13 Mar 1999 15:35:48 -0500 (EST) Subject: H-COST: Re: partlet or shirt? - -Poster: kathleen@niagara.com Notice how the blackwork pattern in the >> upper area of the partlet/smock (neckline) matches the blackwork >> pattern in the sleeves. I also find that in cases where a high necked undergarment shows sleeves of matching fabric, the sleeves tend to be somewhat full and blousy. Pinning/tying in sleeves is a bit awkward...how much more so for blousy, thin sleeves? Mentally continue the line of the sleeve through the shoulder, and the fullness of the sleeve added into the fullness across the breast, seems to match the degree of fullness gathered into the neck. (Boy, was *that* phrased awkwardly...) What if we do it backwards? What if we assume it's a shirt-like garment with sleeves, and look for evidence of sleeveless partlets? (post Tudor, of course...) So far, the only piece I've found for an actual light-fabric "dickey" is a portrait of Diane de Poitier in dishabille...and since she isn't wearing a smock or corset, can we assume that this is, in fact, anything other than a dressing garment to protect the neck and shoulders from hairdressing and make-up? (this is a radical idea I'm considering, so bear with me) We can prove that a low square necked smock was worn under the "partlet". Diane would ostensibly have to *remove* her "partlet" to put on her smock. (or at least fiddle with it alot) Then there are the logistics of tucking in those silly shoulder pieces into a tight neckline...sheer fabric tends to move more easily than solid velvet, so it's unlikely that a bodice could be placed over the sheer bits without displacing them. Also, the shoulder pieces extend beyond her elbow...where do you tuck that? At the very least, you'd have bunches of fabric at the back armhole. Supposition about etymology here: Tudor gowns had a separate piece that could be used to fill in a low neckline, either tied under the arms over the gown, or tucked into the gown. The word "partlet" makes sense for this garment. When the fashion changed from the neckline being filled in by a solid, velvet or brocade partlet to a sheer, gathered-neck garment...it would be likely that the name "partlet" would continue to be used *even if it no longer described the construction, but only the use of the garment* I, unfortunately, don't have the elizabethan costume bible (Q.E.'s Wardrobe Unlocked), so I could very easily be missing a chunk of research about partlets. Please, has anyone seen evidence of post-Tudor partlets, other than the de Poitier portrait? (Not just the word 'partlet', but a description or pictoral representation) Kathleen/Catriona () _/)(\_ "Tehee!" quod she, and clapte the wyndow to /~~\ /____\ _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: aleed Date: Sat, 13 Mar 1999 16:02:39 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: H-COST: Stubbes and scarves - -Poster: aleed The actual book,"An Anatomie of Abuses in Shakespeare's England A.D. 1583", was published in 1877, edited by J. Furnivall. I found a copy at http://www.bibliofind.com/, pricey, but worth every penny. There's a picture of a woman wearing one of those all-enveloping scarves in Janet Arnold's Queen Elizabeth's Wardrobe Unlockd. The book also talks about scarves and shows a number of scarves/veil type things. The woman in the picture is wearing a scarf with a striped-type weave; Thai silks sells a similar sheer silk, with stripes in it. Ciao, Drea On Sat, 13 Mar 1999 kathleen@niagara.com wrote: > > -Poster: kathleen@niagara.com > > > > Is Stubbes in print anywhere? I picked it up ILL, but I want to own it... > > Second question. Stubbes talks about protection from sunburning, and how > women wear scarves of gold, silver or silk "cast about their faces and > fluttering in the wind with great tassels at every end" I picture this > being worn over the head, with the ends crossed in front. Has anyone seen > pictorial evidence of these scarves? > > Kathleen/Catriona > > > > () > _/)(\_ > "Tehee!" quod she, and clapte the wyndow to /~~\ > /____\ > > _________________________________________________________________ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME > _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Hope H. Dunlap" Date: Sat, 13 Mar 1999 11:25:43 -0500 Subject: RE: H-COST: Cotton in a European grave - -Poster: "Hope H. Dunlap" I'm under the impression that cotton culture began on the Indian sub-continent documentable to at least a few thousand years before Christ, but probably much earlier. And that the spinning wheel originated in the same general area. While it is improbable that one trader went the whole round trip from Europe to India in ancient times, the materials were certainly traded from hand to hand through several traders and made it to Europe. If you could grow and loom fine linen, I'm not sure plain cotton would have had that much appeal, but the Indians painted patterns on their fabric from very ancient times, and these exotics must have had considerable appeal elsewhere. I hope I haven't garbled anything too badly here, as I really don't know much about this yet, but it is an area I hope to pursue in the future. Hope H. Dunlap - -----Original Message----- From: owner-h-costume@indra.com [mailto:owner-h-costume@indra.com]On Behalf Of Mara Riley Sent: Friday, March 12, 1999 8:27 PM To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: H-COST: Cotton in a European grave - -Poster: Mara Riley Well, if silk made it to the West via the trade routes, why not cotton? Unusual, yes, but not entirely impossible. Mara On Thu, 11 Mar 1999 SNSpies@aol.com wrote: > > -Poster: SNSpies@aol.com > > Hello to the list. > > In the recent issue of "Archaeological Textiles Newsletter," (ATN 27, Autumn > 1998, 12-14) Penelope Walton Rogers writes about "Cotton in a Merovingian > Burial in Germany." She points out that cotton rarely enters the picture for > European textile researchers and when it does, it usually can be dismissed as > a modern contaminant. However, in this case, the identification of cotton > comes from a secure context in a Merovingian burial dated to the end of the > 5th century, so it is therefore of rather exceptional interest. > > The cotton is a Z-spun thread which was used to quilt some sort of garment or > cover which was made from a wool diamond twill with a padded backing. This > textile was found over the whole length of a woman's body in a coffin burial > in the Merovingian cemetery at Lauchheim/Ostalbkreis in Baden-Wuerttemberg. > > She concludes that the presence of this cotton thread suggests some far- > reaching link with the eastern Mediterranean or western Asia. It is at > present unknown whether the textile arrived in Germany already quilted with > the cotton thread or whether the thread arrived in Germany on its own and was > then used to quilt the textile. It is also unknown whether it was unpicked > from another textile, but further research should answer these questions. > > Greetings! > Ingvild/Nancy > ____________________________________________________________ _____ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME > ____________________________________________________________ _____ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: aleed Date: Sat, 13 Mar 1999 16:15:14 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: H-COST: Re: partlet or shirt? - -Poster: aleed Actually, yes. Beuckelayer painted a picture of a cook in 1574 ( I have the picture at http://www.dnaco.net/~aleed/corsets/lowerclass/images/cook-beuck.jpg where she's clearly wearing a partlet. This is Flanders, and the partlet isn't gathered, but she's wearing it. There's another picture from the same time period showing a similar image of a serving maid wearing a partlet with a ruff attached, but I can't find it right now. It is hard to tell whether some women are wearing a shirt, or matching partlet and sleeves. A smock gathered to a neckband stays down more evenly when it's under a corset more than a gathered partlet, which can pull out sometimes. Drea > > I, unfortunately, don't have the elizabethan costume bible (Q.E.'s Wardrobe > Unlocked), so I could very easily be missing a chunk of research about > partlets. Please, has anyone seen evidence of post-Tudor partlets, other > than the de Poitier portrait? (Not just the word 'partlet', but a > description or pictoral representation) > > Kathleen/Catriona > > > () > _/)(\_ > "Tehee!" quod she, and clapte the wyndow to /~~\ > /____\ > > _________________________________________________________________ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME > _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ End of h-costume-digest V4 #216 ******************************* _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME-DIGEST From ???@??? Tue Mar 16 11:16:55 1999 Received: from mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE (mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE [130.149.4.16]) by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id EAA22092 for ; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 04:40:29 +0100 (MET) Received: from mail.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.15]) by mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10MOEu-0006bn-00; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 04:40:28 +0100 Received: from coal.bg.tu-berlin.de by mail.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Mon, 15 Mar 1999 04:40:16 +0100 Received: from mail.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.15]) by mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10MOEe-0006bi-00; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 04:40:12 +0100 Received: from tubkom.prz.tu-berlin.de by mail.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Mon, 15 Mar 1999 04:40:00 +0100 Received: from mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE (mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE [130.149.4.16]) by tubkom.prz.tu-berlin.de (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id EAA05293 for ; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 04:38:34 +0100 (MEZ) Received: from mail.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.15]) by mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10MOEO-0006bd-00; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 04:39:56 +0100 Received: from server.indra.com by mail.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Mon, 15 Mar 1999 04:39:52 +0100 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.8.5/) with ESMTP id VAA25542; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 21:11:22 -0700 (MST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id UAA22576 for h-costume-digest-outgoing; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 20:38:18 -0700 (MST) Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 20:38:18 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199903150338.UAA22576@indra.com> From: owner-h-costume-digest@indra.com To: h-costume-digest@indra.com Subject: h-costume-digest V4 #217 Reply-To: h-costume-digest@indra.com Errors-To: owner-h-costume-digest@indra.com Precedence: bulk Status: O h-costume-digest Sunday, 14 March 1999 Volume 04 : Number 217 In this issue: Re: H-COST: Re: partlet or shirt? Re: H-COST: Overview sources Re: H-COST: Cotton in a European grave Re: H-COST: Cotton in a European grave H-COST: 19th Century Bonnet for Margo Re: H-COST: Cotton in a European grave H-COST: Fw: Clothing Re: H-COST: Fw: Clothing H-COST: Request for Turk costume circa 1850 Re: H-COST: Request for Turk costume circa 1850 H-COST: Trim for Burgundian?? Re: H-COST: Trim for Burgundian?? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Robin Netherton Date: Sat, 13 Mar 1999 16:57:00 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: H-COST: Re: partlet or shirt? - -Poster: Robin Netherton On Sat, 13 Mar 1999 kathleen@niagara.com wrote: > I, unfortunately, don't have the elizabethan costume bible (Q.E.'s Wardrobe > Unlocked), so I could very easily be missing a chunk of research about > partlets. Please, has anyone seen evidence of post-Tudor partlets, other > than the de Poitier portrait? (Not just the word 'partlet', but a > description or pictoral representation) As you suspected, there are lots of references in QEWU. She cites a written description in the index under "partlet," and throughout the text she quotes orders for partlets with various decorations, embroidery, etc. specified. Sometimes the orders describe the collar decoration in detail, but otherwise there's no detail about cuffs or any other parts that would have been logical if the partlet had sleeves or was anything other than a neckline filler. See pp. 149-153 for some of these references; there are others throughout the book. Some of the partlets are described as being part of a set with matching sleeves, typically of lawn or linen and embroidered in some detail. Arnold shows a picture of a surviving embroidered linen sleeve on p. 190, fig. 274. Ashelford, in _Dress in the Age of Elizabeth I_, shows a picture of a child's partlet, now in the V&A, on p. 79, fig. 51. It's an embroidered piece of linen, apparently square (hard to tell as the photo is cropped), with a scooped neck opening and a small front slit. It has no back. The embroidered section forms a U-shape, and the edges and lower front corners are left plain as these would be covered when it was pinned into the neckline (so this wouldn't have been worn on the outside of the bodice). Ashelford suggests that this partlet might have been sold in a milliner's or seamstress' shop, and also quotes a 1577 play that lists partlets among the items sold in such shops. Both Ashelford and Arnold say it's often impossible to distinguish a partlet + sleeves from a smock in a portrait. There's certainly no argument about the existence of high-necked smocks with ruffs, decorations, etc. The question that started this thread concerned only whether they were routinely worn over the corset as well as under it. I don't have a copy of Arnold's article on smocks. Is there anything in there that's useful to this discussion? - --Robin _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: debbie strub Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 10:28:59 -0800 Subject: Re: H-COST: Overview sources - -Poster: debbie strub Hi Robin, I recommend A Survey of Historic Costume by Phyllis Tortora & Keith Eubank. It's not the most detailed but for each period they list all parts from the skin out of a typical outfit including shoes, hairstyles, makeup, etc. This gives a good framework on which to build further detailed research. Helps to have an idea of what you're looking for/at before delving into the nit-picky details. Good luck with your project. Deb Strub At 09:43 AM 3/12/99 -0500, you wrote: > >-Poster: Robin Netherton > > >I'm helping put together a reading list for 14- to 16-year-olds studying >history, and we'd like to include something on costume. We're looking for >a good overview that covers at least medieval and Renaissance/Elizabethan, >and later centuries if possible. This is NOT for people trying to sew >costume, but for kids who are interested in seeing what people wore. They >may not have much background in history -- think of the average 9th and >10th graders you know. > >Which books do you think give the best general overview, are easy to >follow, and are accurate enough not to imprint the old myths on these >kids? I would prefer to avoid any book that relies on redrawings rather >than primary sources (so things like Wilcox, Lister, Peacock, and >Bradfield are right out). The books should be available in libraries (so >no Queen Elizabeth's Wardrobe Unlock'd). > >I'm thinking of Boucher, Black & Garland, maybe some others. Thoughts? > >--Robin > >::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: >Robin Netherton :::::::: Editor at Large :::::::: robin@dgsys.com >:::::::::::::::: Life is just a bowl of queries. :::::::::::::::: >::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: > > > _________________________________________________________________ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME > > _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Glenda Robinson" Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 09:28:35 +1100 Subject: Re: H-COST: Cotton in a European grave - -Poster: "Glenda Robinson" Hi all, Nancy wrote: > In the recent issue of "Archaeological Textiles Newsletter," (ATN 27, Autumn > 1998, 12-14) Penelope Walton Rogers writes about "Cotton in a Merovingian > Burial in Germany." She points out that cotton rarely enters the picture for > European textile researchers and when it does, it usually can be dismissed as > a modern contaminant Got an idea on this... If archaeologists were to wear obviously modern materials/weaves when working on site, then the 'modern textiles getting caught up in the find' problem would be greatly reduced. It's happened way too often for me to be comfortable with. I can't see t-shirt materials getting confused for any ancient fabric, or vice versa! Glenda. (Still on a high from the 5th century cotton find!) _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: SNSpies@aol.com Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 18:23:55 EST Subject: Re: H-COST: Cotton in a European grave - -Poster: SNSpies@aol.com << If archaeologists were to wear obviously modern materials/weaves when working on site, then the 'modern textiles getting caught up in the find' problem would be greatly reduced. >> Excellent idea, Glenda! Ingvild/Nancy _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Hope H. Dunlap" Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 18:35:44 -0500 Subject: H-COST: 19th Century Bonnet for Margo - -Poster: "Hope H. Dunlap" Some time ago, someone asked about how to make these for a high school production. I came across some surprisingly simple directions for creating them, compound curves and all, from strips of flat cardboard, covered with fabric, decorated with ribbons and whatever. Really very authentic and pretty compound curved silhouette of a respectable not a partially stiffened prairie bonnet. The source is pages 176 and 177 of Early American Costume, by Estelle Ansley Worrell, Harrisburg, PA: Stackpole Books, 1975, ISBN 0-8117-0539-0. I think you'd be very happy with them. There's also directions in the same volume for making felt hats by wetting, streaming and stretching old ones. The book is appropriate for teens, but it was in the juvenile section of the library where I found it. Hope H. Dunlap _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Joan M Jurancich Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 16:41:35 -0700 (MST) Subject: Re: H-COST: Cotton in a European grave - -Poster: Joan M Jurancich At 06:23 PM 03/14/1999 EST, SNSpies@aol.com wrote: > >-Poster: SNSpies@aol.com > ><< If archaeologists were to wear obviously modern > materials/weaves when working on site, then the 'modern textiles getting > caught up in the find' problem would be greatly reduced. >> > >Excellent idea, Glenda! > >Ingvild/Nancy But finding new textiles in an old site is not the problem; it's usually pretty obvious if that happens. It's the several years to several decades (or even a few hundred years)-old bits and pieces that can get buried and mixed with the oldest part of a site. People (and dogs and gophers and ...) have been digging holes and burying stuff for millenia. One frustrating problem, of course, is that vegetable and animal fibres are seldom preserved together at one site; what preserves vegetable fibres (e.g., flax, hemp, cotton) destroys animal fibres (e.g., silk, wool) and vice versa. Joan Jurancich Sacramento, CA joanj@quiknet.com _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Franchesca Havas" Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 18:17:52 -0600 Subject: H-COST: Fw: Clothing - -Poster: "Franchesca Havas" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------=_NextPart_000_0065_01BE6E46.F9B4E2E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable This is my second plea! Can anyone help these great people? Please = respond to phil@globeco.net Sincerely, Ches aka Chiara Francesca Virtual Scribe for 20th year http://www.ansteorra.org/20thyr/ - -----Original Message----- From: Phil and Karan Foster To: ches@io.com Date: Sunday, January 10, 1999 10:42 AM Subject: Clothing I am interested in the clothing of Scotland around the 1350s. Can you = maybe give me a direction to look. Book titles would be helpful. Thank you and have a good week. =20 Phil (ska Angus Forrest) - ------=_NextPart_000_0065_01BE6E46.F9B4E2E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
This is my second plea! Can anyone = help these=20 great people? Please respond to phil@globeco.net

Sincerely,
Ches
aka Chiara = Francesca
Virtual Scribe for 20th year
http://www.ansteorra.org/20thyr= /
-----Original = Message-----
From:=20 Phil and Karan Foster <phil@globeco.net>
To: = ches@io.com <ches@io.com>
Date: Sunday, = January=20 10, 1999 10:42 AM
Subject: Clothing

I am interested in the clothing of = Scotland=20 around the 1350s.  Can you maybe give me a direction to look.  = Book=20 titles would be helpful.
Thank you and have a good = week.
 
Phil
(ska Angus = Forrest)
- ------=_NextPart_000_0065_01BE6E46.F9B4E2E0-- _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Joan M Jurancich Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 17:30:21 -0700 (MST) Subject: Re: H-COST: Fw: Clothing - -Poster: Joan M Jurancich At 06:17 PM 03/14/1999 -0600, Franchesca Havas wrote: >This is my second plea! Can anyone help these great people? Please respond to phil@globeco.net > >Sincerely, >Ches >aka Chiara Francesca >Virtual Scribe for 20th year >http://www.ansteorra.org/20thyr/ > >-----Original Message----- >From: Phil and Karan Foster >To: ches@io.com >Date: Sunday, January 10, 1999 10:42 AM >Subject: Clothing > > >I am interested in the clothing of Scotland around the 1350s. Can you maybe give me a direction to look. Book titles would be helpful. >Thank you and have a good week. > >Phil >(ska Angus Forrest) One book to start with is "The Costume of Scotland" by J. Telfer Dunbar (published in 1981; ISBN 0-7134-2534-2). Your best bet is to check your nearest university library. Since Mr. Dunbar has written or co-authored more than one book on Scottish (mainly Highland) dress, you might try a library catalog search for him as author. I don't think that you will find much that is specifically dated to the mid-14th century. For Lowland Scots and nobles of that time, I would expect the clothing to be similar to that of other European countries at the time. Good luck, Joan Jurancich Sacramento, CA joanj@quiknet.com _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Frntirfshn@aol.com Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 19:57:25 EST Subject: H-COST: Request for Turk costume circa 1850 - -Poster: Frntirfshn@aol.com Any one out there have any leads or who has any info on a male costume for a Turk, 'Constantinople urbanite,' (working class or under) ? I have a request, and need your guidance. Thanks, Eileen Watson _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: MzScahlett@aol.com Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 20:26:34 EST Subject: Re: H-COST: Request for Turk costume circa 1850 - -Poster: MzScahlett@aol.com In a message dated 3/14/1999 16:59:02 Pacific Standard Time, Frntirfshn@aol.com writes: << Any one out there have any leads or who has any info on a male costume for a Turk, 'Constantinople urbanite,' (working class or under) ? I have a request, and need your guidance. >> There was a portrait of a male Turk, in full regalia, from the 1850s at this site. http://hungart.euroweb.hu/english/artist.html I do not remember which artist, but I've only browsed through H. It was a fairly clear closeup, so perhaps helpful? angil ++++++++ Angela F. Lazear Costumes & Custom Clothing "Yes, all my laurels you have riven away and all my roses; yet in spite of you, there is one crown I bear away with me, and tonight, when I enter before God, my salute shall sweep all the stars away from the blue threshold! One thing without stain, unspotted from the world, in spite of doom, mine own! and that is.... my white plume!" ~~ Edmond Rostand's Cyrano de Bergerac _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: AnnoraK@aol.com Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 22:10:39 EST Subject: H-COST: Trim for Burgundian?? - -Poster: AnnoraK@aol.com Hi all! I have a nearly-FO that I need some help with. It is Burgundian intended for dressier occassions. My question is this: should I put trim of some sort on it? I haven't been able to decide if it needs any and if so, what to use. I've flipped thru Davenport and others, looking at pictures, and none of the few Burgundians pictured seem to have any embellishment other than fur collar-pieces or a contrasting band around the hem. Was this just a plainer style of dress, relying on the fabrics used to dress it up? Or was there some other embellishment? My dress is wine-colored brocade with navy velveteen plastron and belt and cream brocade collar. Not exactly simple fabrics, but I can't help thinking that it just looks, well, plain. Any suggestions? Thanks! Nora _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: The Purple Elephant Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 14:07:45 +0930 (CST) Subject: Re: H-COST: Trim for Burgundian?? - -Poster: The Purple Elephant On Sun, 14 Mar 1999 AnnoraK@aol.com wrote: > > -Poster: AnnoraK@aol.com > > Hi all! I have a nearly-FO that I need some help with. It is Burgundian > intended for dressier occassions. My question is this: should I put trim of > some sort on it? I haven't been able to decide if it needs any and if so, > what to use. I've flipped thru Davenport and others, looking at pictures, and > none of the few Burgundians pictured seem to have any embellishment other than > fur collar-pieces or a contrasting band around the hem. > > Was this just a plainer style of dress, relying on the fabrics used to dress > it up? Or was there some other embellishment? My dress is wine-colored > brocade with navy velveteen plastron and belt and cream brocade collar. Not > exactly simple fabrics, but I can't help thinking that it just looks, well, > plain. I can't myself recall seeing much decoration on Burgundian style gowns, so it may well be that they relied on yards of expensive fabrics to give the impression of ostentation, or perhaps the decoration just isn't depicted. In manuscript paintings a lot of garments are depicted plain where they may well not have been, probably because the piccies are small, and the style not overly realistic. If you look at other sources you can often find description of details that don't appear in miniatures. For instance I believe "Dress in the Age of the Black Prince" (hoping I've got the title right there) quotes a royal account for a dress for the queen which was embroidered with squirrels (sounds horribly cutesy). In the book on embroidery by Staniland (the title of which currently eludes me) she describes (again from royal accounts) a hood for one of the Edwards (IV I think) which was embroidered with dancing men and embellished with a ridiculous number of pearls. Nothing of the sort shows up in manuscripts (so far as I've seen. > > Any suggestions? Given that you do have fancy fabrics, perhaps you could do something that enhances them...embellish the brocade pattern with embroidery or pearls... that seems to be something that was done later on...I don't know about then. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Claire F. Clarke "What is this world if, full of care, Physicist, writer, We have no time to stand and stare?" and non environmentally Robert Louis Stevenson friendly substance. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ End of h-costume-digest V4 #217 ******************************* _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME-DIGEST From ???@??? Tue Mar 16 11:16:57 1999 Received: from mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE (mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE [130.149.4.16]) by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA02988 for ; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 02:39:51 +0100 (MET) Received: from mail.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.15]) by mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10Miph-0004d4-00; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 02:39:49 +0100 Received: from coal.bg.tu-berlin.de by mail.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Tue, 16 Mar 1999 02:39:42 +0100 Received: from mail2.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.14]) by mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10MipX-0004cm-00; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 02:39:39 +0100 Received: from tubkom.prz.tu-berlin.de by mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Tue, 16 Mar 1999 02:39:37 +0100 Received: from mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE (mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE [130.149.4.16]) by tubkom.prz.tu-berlin.de (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id CAA14468 for ; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 02:38:11 +0100 (MEZ) Received: from mail.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.15]) by mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10MipS-0004ch-00; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 02:39:34 +0100 Received: from server.indra.com by mail.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Tue, 16 Mar 1999 02:39:24 +0100 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.8.5/) with ESMTP id TAA23930; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 19:12:56 -0700 (MST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id SAA00829 for h-costume-digest-outgoing; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 18:37:51 -0700 (MST) Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 18:37:51 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199903160137.SAA00829@indra.com> From: owner-h-costume-digest@indra.com To: h-costume-digest@indra.com Subject: h-costume-digest V4 #218 Reply-To: h-costume-digest@indra.com Errors-To: owner-h-costume-digest@indra.com Precedence: bulk Status: O h-costume-digest Monday, 15 March 1999 Volume 04 : Number 218 In this issue: Re: H-COST: Cotton in a European grave Re: H-COST: SCA Chat Re: H-COST: Corsets and Stays on the Frontier Re: H-COST: Corsets and Stays on the Frontier Re: H-COST: Corsets and Stays on the Frontier Re: H-COST: Corsets and Stays on the Frontier Re: H-COST: Corsets and Stays on the Frontier H-COST: OT: Uniquely You instructions? Re: H-COST: Corsets and Stays on the Frontier H-COST: edging for flounced skirt Re: H-COST: Corsets and Stays on the Frontier Re: H-COST: OT: Uniquely You instructions? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Carol J. Bell Cannon" Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 19:53:18 -0800 Subject: Re: H-COST: Cotton in a European grave - -Poster: "Carol J. Bell Cannon" At 06:23 PM 3/14/99 -0500, Glenda wrote: ><< If archaeologists were to wear obviously modern > materials/weaves when working on site, then the 'modern textiles getting > caught up in the find' problem would be greatly reduced. >> However, modern materials often are sometimes excessively 'hot' and do not 'breathe' as natural materials do and hence are much less practical, for example, in the desert, or in other extreme conditions such as archaeologists often face on site. Carol _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "christianna del Oro" Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 20:39:58 PST Subject: Re: H-COST: SCA Chat - -Poster: "christianna del Oro" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------=_NextPart_000_3a24d7e5_7300453b$43820d2d Content-type: text/plain Does anyone know of a sca chat room? I would like get on one thats relativly busy. Thanks Christianna Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com - ------=_NextPart_000_3a24d7e5_7300453b$43820d2d Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_1452b37_7300453b$43820d2d" - ------=_NextPart_001_1452b37_7300453b$43820d2d Content-type: text/html
               



Does anyone know of a sca chat room? I would like get on one
thats relativly busy.

Thanks
Christianna

Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
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send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Appin1@aol.com Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 00:46:17 EST Subject: Re: H-COST: Corsets and Stays on the Frontier - -Poster: Appin1@aol.com Sussanah -- Do you wear stays when you do the chores? Have you ever worn stays hauling water, firewood, cooking over a fire, chasing the kids around? Just asking. Kathleen Norvell _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Joan M Jurancich Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 23:29:44 -0700 (MST) Subject: Re: H-COST: Corsets and Stays on the Frontier - -Poster: Joan M Jurancich At 12:46 AM 03/15/1999 EST, Appin1@aol.com wrote: > >-Poster: Appin1@aol.com > >Susannah -- Do you wear stays when you do the chores? Have you ever worn stays >hauling water, firewood, cooking over a fire, chasing the kids around? > >Just asking. > >Kathleen Norvell While I'm not Susannah, I do wear a corset when re-enacting c.1846 at Sutter's Fort. My activities have included, at various times, cooking (both outdoors over an open fire and indoors at a hearth), hauling firewood and water, managing the oven heating and baking in an horno, setting up and taking down tents, unloading and loading all too much stuff from a cart (my truck ), moving furniture, as well as the less strenuous chores of sewing, churning butter (though I did *not* milk the cow ), spinning wool (especially on a walking wheel), and weaving blankets on a period loom. I have not had to chase kids around (I borrow them on occasion, but *always* return them unharmed to their parents ). Of course it's more restrictive in my Elizabethan court dress (I don't work around open fires!), but I have danced vigorous Scottish country dances as well as active courtly dances. Not to mention strenuous walking on challenging terrain when you can't see your feet for your skirts, must avoid stepping on the skirts of the lady in front of you, breathe a great deal of dust and still must smile and engage the visitors and try not to have your feet roll out from under you on the stones. In this outfit, the weight and volume are more of a restraint than the stays . Joan Jurancich Sacramento, CA joanj@quiknet.com _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Ron Carnegie Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 01:38:45 -0500 Subject: Re: H-COST: Corsets and Stays on the Frontier - -Poster: Ron Carnegie At 12:46 AM 3/15/99 EST, you wrote: > >-Poster: Appin1@aol.com > >Sussanah -- Do you wear stays when you do the chores? Have you ever worn stays >hauling water, firewood, cooking over a fire, chasing the kids around? > >Just asking. > >Kathleen Norvell > _________________________________________________________________ I know plenty who have. Cheers, Ron Carnegie rcarnegie@widomaker.com ************************************************* "The poetry of history lies in the quasi-miraculous fact that once on this earth, on this familiar spot of ground walked other men and women as actual as we are today, thinking their own thoughts, swayed by their own passions but now all gone, vanishing after another, gone as utterly as we ourselves shall be gone like ghosts at cockcrow." G.M. Trevelyan ************************************************* _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: rio@austin.rr.com (StrangeGirl) Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 13:01:38 GMT Subject: Re: H-COST: Corsets and Stays on the Frontier - -Poster: rio@austin.rr.com (StrangeGirl) On Mon, 15 Mar 1999 00:46:17 EST, you wrote: > >-Poster: Appin1@aol.com > >Sussanah -- Do you wear stays when you do the chores? Have you ever worn stays >hauling water, firewood, cooking over a fire, chasing the kids around? I have no children of my own to chase, but I have to say that without my stays, my back would not hav been able to bear as much work. I have done all of the above, and more, in various periods of reenactment, and the ones which had stays (none for 12th -13 cent!) were by far more comfortable to my poor back. Margery - -----rio@austin.rr.com---Goddess of Last Minute Miracles--- "We went out with both lips blazing, and a pen in either=20 hand..." - the Flash Girls - -{*to reply take spambegone from my reply-to address*}- _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: " Firefly" Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 14:11:53 -0000 Subject: Re: H-COST: Corsets and Stays on the Frontier - -Poster: " Firefly" Regarding the corset and hard work, most corsets worn TODAY are worn to protect the back during hard labor...Though, to save the egos of many of the manly men who wear them, they just aren't often called corsets. You can see lots of these by going to the hardware store and checking out those black back supports: they're corsets. I've tried on my husband's one from work (he hates it when I call it a corset, too) and it feels real nice, like a ribbon corset (hmm, maybe an idea for those of you who don't have a corset--one of these could do in a jam). Though come to think of it, velcro is alot easier to deal with than those durn hooked busks... Well, at the very least, I hope this gives a new perspective on Home Depot !!! - --- Visit my homepage: http://pages.hotbot.com/travel/fire.fly HotBot - Search smarter. http://www.hotbot.com _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Van Cleave & Fleming" Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 09:23:48 -0500 Subject: H-COST: OT: Uniquely You instructions? - -Poster: "Van Cleave & Fleming" Hello! So I was in Joann's Fabrics the other day and saw that they had a Uniquely You dress form floor model on sale for $50 which was relatively in my size, so of course I had to buy it! Now, however, I have the form but no instructions. Can anyone who's used this dress form email me privately with any pointers on how to fit the cover? I have a vague idea that I'm supposed to fit the cover tightly to my body and then take in the seams -- is there anything else I should know? Thanks, Kendra Van Cleave tweedlebop@earthlink.net _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: LuAnnMason@aol.com Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 09:44:26 EST Subject: Re: H-COST: Corsets and Stays on the Frontier - -Poster: LuAnnMason@aol.com In a message dated 3/15/99 0:47:25 AM EST, Appin1@aol.com writes: << Sussanah -- Do you wear stays when you do the chores? Have you ever worn stays hauling water, firewood, cooking over a fire, chasing the kids around? >> Well, I'm not Susannah either, but yes, I do all of those things (4 kids, incidentally), while wearing a corset. LuAnn Mason _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Margo Anderson Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 13:40:37 -0800 (PST) Subject: H-COST: edging for flounced skirt - -Poster: Margo Anderson I'm making myself an 1850's dress in a cotton (yes, I know, but I'm broke and it was free) plaid with a large, uneven repeat. It will have a fan front bodice, moderate pagoda sleeves, and a triple flounced skirt. This is not supposed to be extremely dressy, just what a woman of moderate circumstances might wear for visiting or church. I feel that the flounces and the ends of the sleeves need some sort of trim to give them definition. Since I need upwards of 20 yards, I'm considering making my own bias binding. Would a bias self binding in the plaid be appropriate, or should I use a solid color? Also, should the top flounce, which begins about 8" down from the waistband, have the same trim at the top of the heading, or should I leave it plain? Margo _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Susannah Eanes" Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 14:25:10 PST Subject: Re: H-COST: Corsets and Stays on the Frontier - -Poster: "Susannah Eanes" > >-Poster: Appin1@aol.com > >Sussanah -- Do you wear stays when you do the chores? Yes. Have you ever worn stays >hauling water, firewood, cooking over a fire, chasing the kids around? > Yes, yes, yes, and yes. As a former ballet dancer, I find the "reminder" and the support re-affirming instead of confining. But maybe that's just me. >Just asking. > >Kathleen Norvell > _________________________________________________________________ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Sue Shatto Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 20:49:19 -0500 Subject: Re: H-COST: OT: Uniquely You instructions? - -Poster: Sue Shatto Kendra, That is really interesting! I bought one for $60 at my Joann's yesterday. It had a tag with it that gave me an 800 number to call for extra parts, etc. I hope I didn't throw that away. At 09:23 AM 3/15/99 -0500, you wrote: > >-Poster: "Van Cleave & Fleming" > >Hello! So I was in Joann's Fabrics the other day and saw that they had a >Uniquely You dress form floor model on sale for $50 which was relatively in >my size, so of course I had to buy it! Now, however, I have the form but no >instructions. Can anyone who's used this dress form email me privately with >any pointers on how to fit the cover? I have a vague idea that I'm supposed >to fit the cover tightly to my body and then take in the seams -- is there >anything else I should know? > >Thanks, > >Kendra Van Cleave >tweedlebop@earthlink.net > > > _________________________________________________________________ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME > > Cordially, Sue Shatto Sue@VictorianMillinery.com http://www.VictorianMillinery.com _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ End of h-costume-digest V4 #218 ******************************* _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME-DIGEST From ???@??? Wed Mar 17 14:50:51 1999 Received: from mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE (mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE [130.149.4.16]) by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA15521 for ; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 05:14:30 +0100 (MET) Received: from mail.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.15]) by mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10N7iv-00012T-00; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 05:14:29 +0100 Received: from coal.bg.tu-berlin.de by mail.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Wed, 17 Mar 1999 05:14:22 +0100 Received: from mail2.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.14]) by mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10N7ik-00012P-00; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 05:14:18 +0100 Received: from tubkom.prz.tu-berlin.de by mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Wed, 17 Mar 1999 05:14:17 +0100 Received: from mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE (mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE [130.149.4.16]) by tubkom.prz.tu-berlin.de (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id FAA25399 for ; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 05:12:49 +0100 (MEZ) Received: from mail.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.15]) by mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10N7if-00012I-01; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 05:14:14 +0100 Received: from server.indra.com by mail.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Wed, 17 Mar 1999 05:14:06 +0100 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.8.5/) with ESMTP id VAA19683; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 21:50:37 -0700 (MST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id VAA10339 for h-costume-digest-outgoing; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 21:12:30 -0700 (MST) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 21:12:30 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199903170412.VAA10339@indra.com> From: owner-h-costume-digest@indra.com To: h-costume-digest@indra.com Subject: h-costume-digest V4 #219 Reply-To: h-costume-digest@indra.com Errors-To: owner-h-costume-digest@indra.com Precedence: bulk Status: O h-costume-digest Tuesday, 16 March 1999 Volume 04 : Number 219 In this issue: RE: H-COST: Request for Turk costume circa 1850 Re: H-COST: Lots of info just posted to www.Costume-Con.org! H-COST: The difference in Costuming Books....` H-COST: Source for "Garter" necklaces, or "collars Re: H-COST: Lots of info just posted to www.Costume-Con.org! Re: H-COST: The difference in Costuming Books....` Re: H-COST: The difference in Costuming Books....` Re: H-COST: Trim for Burgundian?? H-COST: 1350 Scots Clothing RE: H-COST: Corsets and Stays on the Frontier ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Hope H. Dunlap" Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 22:34:46 -0500 Subject: RE: H-COST: Request for Turk costume circa 1850 - -Poster: "Hope H. Dunlap" In The Book of Costume, by the Countess of Wilton, published 1846, she says, "Among the 'reforms' carried into effect by the late sultan Mahmoud, and sanctioned and maintained by his son and successor the present sultan, is one which has changed the whole character and appearance of Turkish costume. We allude to the substitution of the fez for the turban. The fez is a small cap of felted wool, dyed of a crimson colour, without edge of any kind, fitting close to the head, and having a long tassel of blue silk threads hanging from the centre of the top. It is now universally worn in place of the turban." I would add to that that beginning about 1800, the sultans all posed for their portraits in European dress, but the further down the economic scale you went, the more prevalent was traditional costume. A working class man probably wore a straight vest 2" below the waist, a longer shirt under it, slit on the sides and extending to 8" below the waist. He wore a wool or camelhair woven or embroidered sash wrapped around his waist several times. (No working class male Turk is or was fat, so we are not talking belly here. The ones with the bellies were the leisured classes, if at all. ) High natural colored wool sox, with turned over red patterned bands just below the knee, same red patterning at the heel and toe. Shoes were white untanned stiff sheepskin, no fur, cut low , with little pointed toes which turned up very slightly, X-laced across the vamp and all the way up to just under the knee with untanned white sheepskin thongs, ballet-shoe style. Pants loose, an visible only to below the knee, either stopping or covered by the socks below. This was a rural style shoe right up to WWII, but seen in Constantinople/Istanbul, particularly in the last century. European style shoes and Russian style riding boots are alternatives. Hope H. Dunlap - -----Original Message----- From: owner-h-costume@indra.com [mailto:owner-h-costume@indra.com]On Behalf Of MzScahlett@aol.com Sent: Sunday, March 14, 1999 8:27 PM To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: H-COST: Request for Turk costume circa 1850 - -Poster: MzScahlett@aol.com In a message dated 3/14/1999 16:59:02 Pacific Standard Time, Frntirfshn@aol.com writes: << Any one out there have any leads or who has any info on a male costume for a Turk, 'Constantinople urbanite,' (working class or under) ? I have a request, and need your guidance. >> There was a portrait of a male Turk, in full regalia, from the 1850s at this site. http://hungart.euroweb.hu/english/artist.html I do not remember which artist, but I've only browsed through H. It was a fairly clear closeup, so perhaps helpful? angil ++++++++ Angela F. Lazear Costumes & Custom Clothing "Yes, all my laurels you have riven away and all my roses; yet in spite of you, there is one crown I bear away with me, and tonight, when I enter before God, my salute shall sweep all the stars away from the blue threshold! One thing without stain, unspotted from the world, in spite of doom, mine own! and that is.... my white plume!" ~~ Edmond Rostand's Cyrano de Bergerac ____________________________________________________________ _____ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Appin1@aol.com Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 22:42:44 EST Subject: Re: H-COST: Lots of info just posted to www.Costume-Con.org! - -Poster: Appin1@aol.com But Chris, now you've got to wait three years for the rest of us to join you! Glad you had a good time at CC. We enjoyed your company. Kathleen Norvell _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Brandy Dickson" Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 00:40:04 -0800 Subject: H-COST: The difference in Costuming Books....` - -Poster: "Brandy Dickson" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------=_NextPart_000_0022_01BE6F45.88869320 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I was wondering what the difference is in content in Rosemary Ingham's = books: The Costume Designers Handbook: A Complete Guide for the Amateur and = Professional Costume Designer and The Costume Technicians Handbook: A Complete Guide for the Amateur and = Professional Costume Technician Tanks so much.... Desamona m.k.a. Brandy Dickson Hartwood, Kingdom of AnTir - ------=_NextPart_000_0022_01BE6F45.88869320 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I was wondering what the difference = is in=20 content in Rosemary Ingham's books:
 
The Costume Designers = Handbook:  A Complete=20 Guide for the Amateur and Professional Costume Designer
and
The Costume Technicians Handbook: A = Complete=20 Guide for the Amateur and Professional Costume Technician
 
Tanks so much....
 
Desamona
m.k.a.  Brandy Dickson
Hartwood, Kingdom of = AnTir
- ------=_NextPart_000_0022_01BE6F45.88869320-- _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Teddy Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 10:01:30 +0000 (GMT) Subject: H-COST: Source for "Garter" necklaces, or "collars - -Poster: Teddy Hi Roxy > Teddy, > > Can you help on this post......availabilty in the UK? Who makes the ones for > historical re-enactors over there, I wonder :) > > Thanks, > Roxy > << They are often called "chains of office", because they went with various > official jobs. I believe Mayors and like officials still wear them for > ceremonious occasions in the UK. Hmm.... might that mean that, somewhere in > the UK, they are still being made? >> >From what little I know of the subject. There is so little call for these sorts of colours (relatively few officials who need them, and even fewer who need *new* ones - the old ones being passed on to the new postholder etc) that any that are made would probably be specially commissioned from a jewellers/goldsmiths. My other half is going to look up the address/number of the place where the garter robes etc are made/decorated, and I'll give them a call to see if they can shed any light on it. I'll post any relevant findings to the list. Apparently, some of the traders at the renactment faires over here sometimes have reproductions of those Tudor style "collars" too, for about 45 - 50 pounds or so. I've not seen them myself (haven't been looking) but was told this by someone who was interested in buying one. Unfortunately, they didn't take details of the traders' names. Teddy _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Christopher Ballis" Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 21:47:31 +1100 Subject: Re: H-COST: Lots of info just posted to www.Costume-Con.org! - -Poster: "Christopher Ballis" > But Chris, now you've got to wait three years for the rest of us to join you! > > Glad you had a good time at CC. We enjoyed your company. > > Kathleen Norvell As Arnie said, "I'll bhe buck." _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Marionetta@aol.com Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 09:10:30 EST Subject: Re: H-COST: The difference in Costuming Books....` - -Poster: Marionetta@aol.com The Costume Technicians Handbook is about the fabrication of theatrical costumes: making body blocks and drafting patterns, the difference in types of fabrics, how to do burn tests, making armor, hats/crowns, how to make bas strips, gussets, stitching on vinyl and leather, doing alterations, tying cravats and styling wigs, etc. It's HOW to do all those things, If I recall correctly there are a few basic body block patterns and basic hat shape patterns but if you want scaled historical patterns there are many other books that have much more. I really like this book, it gives a broad overall view of costume building. If you're looking for a comprehensive source on how to do something you can find a lot of the answers in this book. The Costume Designers Handbook is about designing costumes not making them. I don't own this book but have looked through it and it seems to be more figuring out what the artistic director/director want for the production, creating time tables for the fabrication of the costumes, researching the silhouettes of different time periods, etc. Very useful if you want to be a designer, especially a theatrical designer, not so useful if you are a costume maker. Hope this helps. Cheers, Loren Dearborn marionetta@aol.com _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: AlbertCat@aol.com Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 10:14:48 EST Subject: Re: H-COST: The difference in Costuming Books....` - -Poster: AlbertCat@aol.com This seems to be a good thread to insert my thoughts on Jean Hunnisett's Medieval to 1500 book. You all will remember I asked on this list about the book when I ordered it because the customer review at Amazon was not very favorable. This 3 rd volume is just as good as the two earlier ones. I see no difference. The title does say "for stage & screen" not "for museums'. Ms Hunnisett clearly explains that she is not going for accuracy but for a look [in all her volumes]. Besides, in any period before the 1840s, if you stick the fabric under the sewing machine you've blown acute accuracy pretty much. I feel she is as accurate as practically possible. I remember in the review some ranting about "that dart" on the kirtle pattern. But, c'mon, it is clearly printed in bold letters right next to the dart on the pattern "optional" and then in the text she goes on about easing fullness into the armseye or CF seam and other methods for form fitting sans darts. So her "bog dress" pattern is not exactly like the archeological find. She explains what she feels to be the problems with it & let us remember that it was made for a specific person of which we know nothing. Like the patterns in Janet Arnold's great books, also made for individuals, patterns must be adjusted to work on new wearers. Her main thrust in the book is the working of large unstructured pattern pieces. Her advice is sound. If I have a complaint about this book, it is the strange examples she uses to show results. Ballet costumes???? And a 1960-ish Pamina costume? Out of all the Shakespeare histories she must have worked on these are the BEST examples she can come up with???? At any rate, were I to teach a class in costume construction, owning these 3 volumes [plus Arnold's 3 volumes] would be a requirement. _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Henk 't Jong" Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 18:57:29 +0100 Subject: Re: H-COST: Trim for Burgundian?? - -Poster: "Henk 't Jong" Henk & Pauline 't Jong tScapreel Medieval Advisors Dordrecht, Netherlands Hi list, > > Hi all! I have a nearly-FO that I need some help with. It is Burgundian > > intended for dressier occassions. The term 'burgundian' is somewhat broad (ca 1380-1480), could you narrow it down? I suppose, reading the words plastron and (fabric) belt it is somewhere near the end of the period. My question is this: should I put trim of > > some sort on it? I haven't been able to decide if it needs any and if so, > > what to use. I've flipped thru Davenport and others, looking at pictures, and > > none of the few Burgundians pictured seem to have any embellishment other than > > fur collar-pieces or a contrasting band around the hem. > > Fur collars, right, bands around the hem, not to my knowledge (Flanders, the Low Countries). Or you might be confused with fur-turnups, which did exist. > > Was this just a plainer style of dress, relying on the fabrics used to dress > > it up? Or was there some other embellishment? Dressing in plain cloth was the way in which rich people showed their taste and wealth. The cloth was broadcloth, a very supple woollen drape in deep colours: very expensive, especially in flame red and black. My dress is wine-colored > > brocade with navy velveteen plastron and belt and cream brocade collar. Not > > exactly simple fabrics, but I can't help thinking that it just looks, well, > > plain. Brocades are mostly shown to be worn by saints, angels, priests in vestments, prelates, kings and other princes on ceremonial occasions and some rich noblemen who had their portraits painted (but not with all of them). Normal everyday dress even for these people (except for saints and angels, probably) was wool/broadcloth. Looking plain was no option; the amount of cloth used, the deepness of the colour and the furs you used were the pointers to your status. > I can't myself recall seeing much decoration on Burgundian style gowns, > so it may well be that they relied on yards of expensive fabrics to give > the impression of ostentation, or perhaps the decoration just isn't > depicted. In manuscript paintings a lot of garments are depicted plain > where they may well not have been, probably because the piccies are small, > and the style not overly realistic. Late burgundian painting is by no means small. There are loads of very realistic and very detailed paintings of common and richer people in which you can see that decoration was not part of everyday dress. They might wear jewelry (necklaces) or costly belts or a collar, but that was all. If you look at other sources you can > often find description of details that don't appear in miniatures. > For instance I believe "Dress in the Age of the Black Prince" (hoping > I've got the title right there) quotes a royal account for a dress for > the queen which was embroidered with squirrels (sounds horribly cutesy). This is 1340-1365, a much earlier period and the quote is about royal ceremonial dress, which was something entirely different. > In the book on embroidery by Staniland (the title of which currently eludes > me) she describes (again from royal accounts) a hood for one of the > Edwards (IV I think) which was embroidered with dancing men and embellished > with a ridiculous number of pearls. Nothing of the sort shows up in > manuscripts (so far as I've seen. > > It does in some coronation portraits and even some pictures of ceremonies. See the Wilton Dyptich (Richard II and saint Edmund in their embroidered houppelandes, ca 1385) > > Any suggestions? > Given that you do have fancy fabrics, perhaps you could do something that > enhances them...embellish the brocade pattern with embroidery or pearls... > that seems to be something that was done later on...I don't know about then. As far as I know embroidery was rarely used on non-royal dress even in the period 1440-1480. Henk _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Hope H. Dunlap" Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 15:41:35 -0500 Subject: H-COST: 1350 Scots Clothing - -Poster: "Hope H. Dunlap" See Naomi Tarrant's The Development of Costume, too, published fairly recently. It has cutting layouts of trews from archeological finds, which I've seen nowhere else. Also H. F. McClintock's Old Irish and Scottish Dress with Notes from the Isle of Mann, Dundalgen Press 1949 and 1950. The Scots part is often a separate volume, about 75 pages. Also, Mairead Dunleavy's Dress in Ireland, about 1989 or so, out of print, but well worth finding by ILL, because Irish and Scottish dress share many similarities. She develops many areas not touched or fully developed in McClintock. Hope H. Dunlap - -----Original Message----- From: owner-h-costume@indra.com [mailto:owner-h-costume@indra.com]On Behalf Of Joan M Jurancich Sent: Sunday, March 14, 1999 7:30 PM To: h-costume@indra.com Cc: phil@globeco.net Subject: Re: H-COST: Fw: Clothing - -Poster: Joan M Jurancich At 06:17 PM 03/14/1999 -0600, Franchesca Havas wrote: >This is my second plea! Can anyone help these great people? Please respond to phil@globeco.net > >Sincerely, >Ches >aka Chiara Francesca >Virtual Scribe for 20th year >http://www.ansteorra.org/20thyr/ > >-----Original Message----- >From: Phil and Karan Foster >To: ches@io.com >Date: Sunday, January 10, 1999 10:42 AM >Subject: Clothing > > >I am interested in the clothing of Scotland around the 1350s. Can you maybe give me a direction to look. Book titles would be helpful. >Thank you and have a good week. > >Phil >(ska Angus Forrest) One book to start with is "The Costume of Scotland" by J. Telfer Dunbar (published in 1981; ISBN 0-7134-2534-2). Your best bet is to check your nearest university library. Since Mr. Dunbar has written or co-authored more than one book on Scottish (mainly Highland) dress, you might try a library catalog search for him as author. I don't think that you will find much that is specifically dated to the mid-14th century. For Lowland Scots and nobles of that time, I would expect the clothing to be similar to that of other European countries at the time. Good luck, Joan Jurancich Sacramento, CA joanj@quiknet.com ____________________________________________________________ _____ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Hope H. Dunlap" Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 15:51:43 -0500 Subject: RE: H-COST: Corsets and Stays on the Frontier - -Poster: "Hope H. Dunlap" I read a book from the 19th Century once where the old woman who did all these things was remembered by the children for the "loud creaking of her stays." Hope H. Dunlap - -----Original Message----- From: owner-h-costume@indra.com [mailto:owner-h-costume@indra.com]On Behalf Of Appin1@aol.com Sent: Monday, March 15, 1999 12:46 AM To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: H-COST: Corsets and Stays on the Frontier - -Poster: Appin1@aol.com Sussanah -- Do you wear stays when you do the chores? Have you ever worn stays hauling water, firewood, cooking over a fire, chasing the kids around? Just asking. Kathleen Norvell ____________________________________________________________ _____ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ End of h-costume-digest V4 #219 ******************************* _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME-DIGEST From ???@??? Thu Mar 18 09:25:57 1999 Received: from mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE (mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE [130.149.4.16]) by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id EAA26406 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 04:11:30 +0100 (MET) Received: from mail.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.15]) by mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10NTDU-0000ir-01; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 04:11:28 +0100 Received: from coal.bg.tu-berlin.de by mail.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Thu, 18 Mar 1999 04:11:27 +0100 Received: from mail2.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.14]) by mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10NTDP-0000ic-00; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 04:11:23 +0100 Received: from tubkom.prz.tu-berlin.de by mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Thu, 18 Mar 1999 04:11:21 +0100 Received: from mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE (mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE [130.149.4.16]) by tubkom.prz.tu-berlin.de (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id EAA05149 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 04:09:48 +0100 (MEZ) Received: from mail.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.15]) by mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10NTDA-0000iX-00; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 04:11:08 +0100 Received: from server.indra.com by mail.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Thu, 18 Mar 1999 04:11:05 +0100 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.8.5/) with ESMTP id UAA12467; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 20:50:07 -0700 (MST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id UAA18794 for h-costume-digest-outgoing; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 20:09:38 -0700 (MST) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 20:09:38 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199903180309.UAA18794@indra.com> From: owner-h-costume-digest@indra.com To: h-costume-digest@indra.com Subject: h-costume-digest V4 #220 Reply-To: h-costume-digest@indra.com Errors-To: owner-h-costume-digest@indra.com Precedence: bulk h-costume-digest Wednesday, 17 March 1999 Volume 04 : Number 220 In this issue: H-COST: 1850 Turkish Men's Costume H-COST: hello H-COST: Gold Rush Conference H-COST: Swing dancing in a film (fwd) Re: H-COST: Swing dancing in a film (fwd) Re: H-COST: Swing dancing in a film (fwd) H-COST: Re: h-costume-digest V4 #214 Re: H-COST: Re: h-costume-digest V4 #214 Re: H-COST: Swing dancing in a film (fwd) H-COST: Susannah, do you wear stays... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Hope H. Dunlap" Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 19:20:10 -0500 Subject: H-COST: 1850 Turkish Men's Costume - -Poster: "Hope H. Dunlap" Re my recent post on this subject, the shoes may have been sheepskin sometimes, but I meant to say goatskin. They are white, untanned, and retain a distinctive odor indefinitely. Racinet has colored drawings of men in Turkish costumes that might be helpful as does Max Tilke's two books. All the men in Racinet have red morocco slippers or boots, both with turned up toes. I personally suspect this was as "easy out" for an artist who didn't know the whole range of costume, but in any event, the garb is pretty much on target for Turkish traditional dress of the day. In many circles European garb was creeping in and Racinet wouldn't record that accurately. I saw a display in the Ethnographic museum in Bursa, Turkey which showed wedding costume from about 1800 to 1920, about 8 costumes, and it was very interesting to see just the odd European thing included in 1800, then a little more, and a little more, and the traditional Turkish things displaced. By the end of the century, the women wore a long ivory silk dress with corseted waist with European style lace and ruffled decoration, but with just a few Turkish elements, such as a silken cord strung with money hung around her neck, a Turkish pillbox hat and veil. The groom's costume changed too, but there were only a few represented. Hope H. Dunlap _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "R.L. Shep" Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 20:40:38 -0800 Subject: H-COST: hello - -Poster: "R.L. Shep" I am back on the list after having spent a good deal of time in India.... always fascinating in terms of costume and people..... AND having moved to Seattle. R.L. Shep 5717 - 18th Ave NE Seattle, WA 98105 phone 206-729-9041 email as before: rlshep@jps.net ~!~ R.L.Shep http://www.mcn.org/e/fsbks _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "David W. Rickman" Date: Wed, 17 Mar 99 9:26:23 EST Subject: H-COST: Gold Rush Conference - -Poster: "David W. Rickman" Hello, I just returned from the "Fabric of History: Clothing, Textiles and Images of the California Gold Rush" conference in California, and just wanted to say what a great experience it was. For those of you who don't know about this, it was a combined sewing workshop for creating Gold Rush-era (1848-1860) costumes, and a symposium with such speakers as Saundra Altman of Past Patterns (who organized the conference) and Nancy Rexford (costume historian and author of a soon-to-be-published encyclopedic history of women's shoes of the late-18th through mid-19th centuries). Topics included men's and women's fashionable and work clothes of this era, dating printed cottons and an extraordinary look at how 19th century photographic methods altered the colors of the objects they recorded. It was wonderful to see how much hard scholarly work has gone into Past Patterns' product, and how Saundra continues to hunt down rare examples of 19th century garments to document and reproduce. Call me strange if you will, but I was riveted by her discussion of men's overalls and aprons in the 1840's simply because no one has ever documented these little-thought-of but ubiquitous garments until now. I spoke on Spanish Californian clothing and its use by not only the Hispanic miners, but a small number of "Gringos" as well. And yes, I did ask the question again, ten years later, of both Nancy Rexford and Saundra Altman and both answered the same as they had before. Corsets and stays were a fashion necessity in this era, but not required of women of all classes working at home and probably not worn by rural working women, but again, we don't have hard evidence for either their presence or absence. Nancy and Saundra both prefer to recommend the lightest possible stays of doubled cotton because it makes the shape more period. We looked at one actual cotton work dress from the 1850's or early '60's that had a few darts from the waistline to the bust, but no boning or lining, and Nancy had a slide of a similar dress. Nancy told me that women of all classes were likely to wear just a "wrapper" (a loose dress that was the ancestor of the Hawaiian mu mu) around the house. This dress had some ties in back to control the waist, but no actual separation between the bodice and skirts, which were made all in one. With this, not even a fichu was needed because it was so loose. This garment was often worn at home and outside the house without anything beneath it but the chemise and petticoats. However, a lady would never want to be seen by anyone but family in her wrapper without a foundation. Unfortunately, this talk had to be cut short because I had to catch a plane. I hope to continue it with her and will let you know more. At any rate, if Saundra holds any more of these symposia, I strongly urge anyone interested to go. You will not find better, more accurate nor more useful information on this period. Thanks. David drickman@state.de.us _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Parsla Liepa Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 15:21:56 -0500 (EST) Subject: H-COST: Swing dancing in a film (fwd) - -Poster: Parsla Liepa A film student on campus is doing a movie for his master's thesis, and he's sent out requests for extras to most student groups. I've snipped out most of the info, but thought that others might be as equally horrified by what he plans to do. The producer seems to be getting his decades confused! Parsla - ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Basically what we're trying to do is re-create a 1930's underground swing club. There will be tables, chairs, a full size bar, a 10 piece swing band, lighting, statues,a fog machine, atmosphere, and you. What to Wear? Women: A dress or skirt should work nicely, if you have capris (spelling might be off) or tight jeans that can be wrapped to the mid-calf those are good too. A button-down shirt will work as well or some sort of figure forming shirt. Bring two outfits just incase although we will have additionals there. There are changing rooms and we will have make-up artists and a hair stylist for touch-up. Please bring your own make-up if you feel you need touch-up, we may not have your particular color. No extreme colors or anything that stands out as well as no logos. Muted colors work best although if you'd like to bring something along those lines (colors that stand out) that's fine and we'll double check it there. Men: A zoot suit if you have it, otherwise a suit or jacket. A button-down shirt with suspenders or a vest will also work. Khaki pants or other "stylin" pants will also work well and a nice pair of shoes. We will have a selection of clothes there as well but if you can bring two changes of outfit's that would help out. No extreme colors, more along the lines of muted and if you can afford a shirt other than white, that would be good. As with the females, if you have something that you think may stand out too much just bring it and we'll check it at the studio. There are dressing rooms and there will be make-up for touch-ups and a hair stylist. Remember this is a 1930's underground swing club. Alchohol is not legal yet although it is supposedly present at this club. If you need some inspiration for outfits and dancing styles check out the films "Swingers" or "Swing Kids." Otherwise I hope to see ya swing'n there. _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Amanda Reeves" Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 14:31:42 -0600 Subject: Re: H-COST: Swing dancing in a film (fwd) - -Poster: "Amanda Reeves" OH, NO!!!!!! Now he's stepping in on "my" era of interest (having a father that fought in WWII & raised me dancing jitterbug) Has anyone written to enlighten this student? I have a son that is graduating from High School and going into film production. His father and I ALWAYS make sure he is "authentic" in his ideas and make him do his research!!!!!! Amanda (Texas) - ---------- > From: Parsla Liepa > To: h-costume@indra.com > Subject: H-COST: Swing dancing in a film (fwd) > Date: Wednesday, March 17, 1999 2:21 PM > > > -Poster: Parsla Liepa > > > A film student on campus is doing a movie for his master's thesis, and > he's sent out requests for extras to most student groups. I've snipped > out most of the info, but thought that others might be as equally > horrified by what he plans to do. The producer seems to be getting his > decades confused! > > Parsla > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > > Basically what we're trying to do is re-create a 1930's underground swing > club. There will be tables, chairs, a full size bar, a 10 piece swing > band, lighting, statues,a fog machine, atmosphere, and you. > > What to Wear? > > Women: > > A dress or skirt should work nicely, if you have capris (spelling might be > off) or tight jeans that can be wrapped to the mid-calf those are good > too. A button-down shirt will work as well or some sort of figure forming > shirt. Bring two outfits just incase although we will have additionals > there. There are changing rooms and we will have make-up artists and a > hair stylist for touch-up. Please bring your own make-up if you feel you > need touch-up, we may not have your particular color. No extreme colors > or anything that stands out as well as no logos. Muted colors work best > although if you'd like to bring something along those lines (colors that > stand out) that's fine and we'll double check it there. > > Men: > > A zoot suit if you have it, otherwise a suit or jacket. A button-down > shirt with suspenders or a vest will also work. Khaki pants or other > "stylin" pants will also work well and a nice pair of shoes. We will have > a selection of clothes there as well but if you can bring two changes of > outfit's that would help out. No extreme colors, more along the lines of > muted and if you can afford a shirt other than white, that would be good. > As with the females, if you have something that you think may stand out > too much just bring it and we'll check it at the studio. There are > dressing rooms and there will be make-up for touch-ups and a hair stylist. > > Remember this is a 1930's underground swing club. Alchohol is not legal > yet although it is supposedly present at this club. If you need some > inspiration for outfits and dancing styles check out the films "Swingers" > or "Swing Kids." Otherwise I hope to see ya swing'n there. > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: lilinah@grin.net Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 13:03:46 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: H-COST: Swing dancing in a film (fwd) - -Poster: lilinah@grin.net Unfortunately, i'm not surprised, since way too much of what i hear labelled as "swing" is really '50's boogie and rockabilly and when i tell the youngsters they say, "Who cares? I like it." But at least most of the people i've seen tend to dress '40's or '40's-ish. The 1930's is one of my favorite periods for big band music and for women's costume. I don't care for much of '40's swing and '40's clothes - the music lost guts and the clothing lost elegance. The idea of a roomful of men in early 40's zoot suits (which were pretty ethnic specific and not worn by men in general) and women in 50's capris and dungarees while in a supposedly '30s setting is rather shocking (ok, maybe that's hyperbole). A few women might have worn loose slacks, but generally when you went out, you'd want to dress up. Yes, sometimes white blouses and short dark skirts, but not capris. Sheesh. And a fog machine? That's 30's? (maybe it is, but it sure seems unlikely to me) You don't have to be a costume expert to have a clue. Just watch a couple '30's movies. Or Kansas City by Robert Altman. Lilinah _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Lynn Meyer Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 13:13:47 -0800 Subject: H-COST: Re: h-costume-digest V4 #214 - -Poster: Lynn Meyer I finally made time to really read the details on screen-printing that people have posted... Hope, thanks for the detailed explanation on the silk-screening process -- fascinating stuff! It was very clear, and I've saved it all for future reference. Sounds like acetate/mylar contact paper might be today's equivalent of the gelled paper you used years ago? I think smearing must have been my trouble when I tried it before, rather than spreading, since it definitely was textile paint rather than dye (and bought from an art supply store that usually has pretty good materials). Sarah, thank you also! Also tucked safely away for reference :-) You mentioned linoleum for making stamps... is that ordinary linoleum? I'm going to have damaged bathroom and kitchen floors replaced in a house I'm buying, so it would be easy to save some extra linoleum from that, if it would be suitable. Also, let me see if I understood you or not: for silk-screening, you want a thick paint that sits on top of the fabric ("sour cream or thicker", as Hope said) -- but when you discussed "painting on fabric" or "hand-painting", the kind that your interior-decorator employer used, you meant brush and fabric and paint, no other tools (no silkscreens, no stencils,...) -- is that right? And the Liquitex acrylic was the right kind of fabric paint for this, not for silkscreening? What kind of fabric paint would be good for stamping? I just looked up Dharma Trading, since I remembered that they sell fabric paints, but they have so many kinds that it's overwhelming! (They're at http://www.dharmatrading.com, or (800) 542-5227 to order their catalog.) And for any of these, would it make a difference on what kind of paint to use if it's a small design ("eraser-size") or a large design (say a foot or two across -- I have no idea if this is practical for any form of textile painting, but I've seen it in lots of period fabric). I used to dream about weaving that kind of pattern someday, but the kind of loom I'd need costs about $30,000 from AVL, alas! Not to mention how long it would take to set it up if I *could* get at one. Thanks again, Halima _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Sara J. Davitt" Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 16:43:32 -0600 (CST) Subject: Re: H-COST: Re: h-costume-digest V4 #214 - -Poster: "Sara J. Davitt" > > You mentioned linoleum for making stamps... is that ordinary linoleum? > I'm going to have damaged bathroom and kitchen floors replaced in > a house I'm buying, so it would be easy to save some extra linoleum > from that, if it would be suitable. ANYTHING COULD be used.... but I wouldn't use bathroom linoleum for anything other than a simple flat, cut design. To use that, (or plexiglass, thinwood/veneer..etc--- though if it is has some thickness to it, it will be easier to handle without making a mess) cut out the design, and roll color on to the piece with a rubber brayer. (make sure that the brayer is evenly 'charged' -- put surplus ink in a well at the top of a glass slab, then take little bits of ink and rolling them out with the brayer in all directions to get a completly even coat of ink) However, the linoleum that I spoke of is alot like a harder eraser, that is available in larger sheets. You can cut into it with woodcutting tools (available at art supply stores) I would recommend this method for a repeat pattern... take a larger sheet, and then cut the same design into it to create the repeat pattern. then roll up as usual... but take a pice of mylar, and cut a 'stencil' to protect the white areas between the designs. (yes they are cut out... but the ridges in the cut areas can pick up ink and print onto the fabric (a not much desired effect in fabric printing) > > Also, let me see if I understood you or not: for silk-screening, > you want a thick paint that sits on top of the fabric ("sour cream > or thicker", as Hope said) -- but when you discussed "painting on > fabric" or "hand-painting", the kind that your interior-decorator > employer used, you meant brush and fabric and paint, no other tools > (no silkscreens, no stencils,...) -- is that right? And the Liquitex > acrylic was the right kind of fabric paint for this, not for > silkscreening? > DO NOT use liquitex for screenprinting.... use screenprinting ink for screenprinting. (comes in water base and oil base--- so if you want to use waterbased ink, you use non water soluable screen filler, and vice versa) Ask at your local art suply store for a little starter kit... I think Speedball makes one... for screening T-shirt logos and the like... but that'll give you a good idea. > What kind of fabric paint would be good for stamping? > Woodblock printing ink. > > And for any of these, would it make a difference on what kind of > paint to use if it's a small design ("eraser-size") or a large > design (say a foot or two across -- I have no idea if this is > practical for any form of textile painting, but I've seen it in > lots of period fabric). The larger the design, the better chance you will want to use oil based ink...(or a 'retarder mixed into the ink) and the more help you may need. the problem is that woodblock inks dry fairly quickly, and they won't print when dry.. AND they'll gum up your printing block. > > I used to dream about weaving that kind of pattern someday, but > the kind of loom I'd need costs about $30,000 from AVL, alas! > Not to mention how long it would take to set it up if I *could* > get at one. Remember that screenprinting and ink aplying tecniques will alter the hand of the fabric. and besires.. you might want to save up for the loom anyway... :-) Good luck! and I hope this was a help! Sarahj _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: " Firefly" Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 23:13:57 -0000 Subject: Re: H-COST: Swing dancing in a film (fwd) - -Poster: " Firefly" Ouch! Ouch! Ouch! I think the problem is what this guy is basing his/her image of the 1930s--Capri Pants??? The models for this image are particularly bad: Swing Kids is set in Germany in the 1940s (and there's lots of criticism of it's accuracy) and Swingers is about a bunch of kids from the 90s obsessed with the 50s! No wonder the confusion! Parsla, if you know this person, you might try suggesting that the opening dance hall scene in the movie Malcom X is a much more accurate portrayal of the swing dance scene of the 1930s...Bear in mind, in the 30s the craze was largely limited to the "colored" clubs (i.e., serving African American and Mexican clubbers) in the trendier cities. As far as the revival of swing dancing, things have changed alot since the movie "Swingers" was released. A good reference is the cover article on swing dancing in this month's Smithsonian Magazine. - --- Visit my homepage: http://pages.hotbot.com/travel/fire.fly HotBot - Search smarter. http://www.hotbot.com _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Marsha McLean Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 22:09:21 -0500 (EST) Subject: H-COST: Susannah, do you wear stays... - -Poster: Marsha McLean I have worn a heavily bones Elizabethan corset to: chop wood, fence, carry a very large toddler (arms or shoulders), dance a lively galliard, make love };^)>, sing madrigals, cook, carry groceries..... And I have belly danced in full court Elizabethan with all the bells and whistles down to proper garters. As a large busted woman, also a former dancer, I LOVE the support and generally prefer my corset to a bra. I DO strongly encourage one to have one's corset custom fitted by someone competent. I could never, nor never knew anyone who, could fit myself and not get an uncomfortable corset. Marsha/Madinia _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ End of h-costume-digest V4 #220 ******************************* _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME-DIGEST From ???@??? Fri Mar 19 09:43:53 1999 Received: from mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE (mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE [130.149.4.16]) by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA05627 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 21:39:50 +0100 (MET) Received: from mail.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.15]) by mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10Nja1-0001ll-00; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 21:39:49 +0100 Received: from coal.bg.tu-berlin.de by mail.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Thu, 18 Mar 1999 21:39:40 +0100 Received: from mail2.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.14]) by mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10NjZp-0001lc-00; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 21:39:37 +0100 Received: from tubkom.prz.tu-berlin.de by mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Thu, 18 Mar 1999 21:39:35 +0100 Received: from mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE (mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE [130.149.4.16]) by tubkom.prz.tu-berlin.de (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA12298 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 21:38:06 +0100 (MEZ) Received: from mail.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.15]) by mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10NjZk-0001lV-00; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 21:39:32 +0100 Received: from server.indra.com by mail.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Thu, 18 Mar 1999 21:38:51 +0100 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.8.5/) with ESMTP id OAA14550; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 14:19:58 -0700 (MST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id NAA11686 for h-costume-digest-outgoing; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 13:37:26 -0700 (MST) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 13:37:26 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199903182037.NAA11686@indra.com> From: owner-h-costume-digest@indra.com To: h-costume-digest@indra.com Subject: h-costume-digest V4 #221 Reply-To: h-costume-digest@indra.com Errors-To: owner-h-costume-digest@indra.com Precedence: bulk h-costume-digest Thursday, 18 March 1999 Volume 04 : Number 221 In this issue: Re: H-COST: Gold Rush Conference H-COST: 1850's flounced dress re: Re: H-COST: Gold Rush Conference H-COST: RE: Screen Printing H-COST: low list activity Re: H-COST: low list activity H-COST: Vintage Clothing & Textile Sale in Seattle Re: H-COST: Susannah, do you wear stays... Re: H-COST: do you wear stays... Re: H-COST: do you wear stays... Re: H-COST: do you wear stays... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Diana H Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 00:53:36 -0800 Subject: Re: H-COST: Gold Rush Conference - -Poster: Diana H David W. Rickman wrote: > -Poster: "David W. Rickman" > > Hello, > > I just returned from the "Fabric of History: Clothing, Textiles and > Images of > the California Gold Rush" conference in California, and just wanted to > say > what a great experience it was. For those of you who don't know about > this, it > was a combined sewing workshop for creating Gold Rush-era (1848-1860) > costumes, and a symposium with such speakers as Saundra Altman of Past > > Patterns (who organized the conference) and Nancy Rexford (costume > historian > and author of a soon-to-be-published encyclopedic history of women's > shoes of > the late-18th through mid-19th centuries). David, It sounds like the conference was wonderful and being that I live in California, I was wondering if you could tell me where it was held. I just might be able to make it next year if it is nearby.... Thanks! Diana - -- * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * "There are too many mediocre things in life to deal with.....Love shouldn't be one of them." - --Ione Skye in "Dream for an Insomniac" _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Bette Anne Adams Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 06:24:47 -0500 Subject: H-COST: 1850's flounced dress - -Poster: Bette Anne Adams Margo, In our collection we have several cotton dresses of the 1850's made with fan fronts and flounced skirts. Most of the sleeves are of the small pagoda. The cottons are all light and sheer. Decoration is minimal, with hand embroidered insertions being used on the dresses of mull. A few are a'disposition. All have the flounces laid on using a corded top edge using a fine cotton cord and a 1/2 inch turned plain hem. The flounces are all cut on the bias. The sleeves likewise are finished with a plain turned hem. I have seen very few cotton dresses with anything approaching an applied trim other than that made of self fabric, although I have seen children's cotton dresses and the odd adult's dress of cotton on which the ruffles are finished with a binding of contrasting cotton bias. Bette Anne Adams ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "David W. Rickman" Date: Thu, 18 Mar 99 9:06:23 EST Subject: re: Re: H-COST: Gold Rush Conference - -Poster: "David W. Rickman" Unfortunately, this was a one-time conference, not an annual event. It was held in the town of Columbia, in the Sierra foothills, about two hours southeast of Sacramento. Saundra Altman does, however, hold workshops and conferences from time to time, as they are requested by historic sites, reenactor groups, etc. You might contact her at pastpat@thepoint.net to see if she has another workshop anytime soon. "Diana H" Wrote: | | | -Poster: Diana H | | David W. Rickman wrote: | | > -Poster: "David W. Rickman" | > | > Hello, | > | > I just returned from the "Fabric of History: Clothing, | Textiles and | > Images of | > the California Gold Rush" conference in California, and | just wanted to | > say | > what a great experience it was. For those of you who | don't know about | > this, it | > was a combined sewing workshop for creating Gold | Rush-era (1848-1860) | > costumes, and a symposium with such speakers as Saundra | Altman of Past | > | > Patterns (who organized the conference) and Nancy | Rexford (costume | > historian | > and author of a soon-to-be-published encyclopedic | history of women's | > shoes of | > the late-18th through mid-19th centuries). | | David, | | It sounds like the conference was wonderful and being that | I live in | California, I was wondering if you could tell me where it | was held. I | just might be able to make it next year if it is | nearby.... | | Thanks! | | Diana | -- | | * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * | * * * * * | "There are too many mediocre things in life to deal | with.....Love | shouldn't be one | of them." | --Ione Skye in "Dream for an Insomniac" | | | | __________________________________________________________ | _______ | To leave this mailing list, send mail to | majordomo@indra.com | with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME | _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Hope H. Dunlap" Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 09:47:36 -0500 Subject: H-COST: RE: Screen Printing - -Poster: "Hope H. Dunlap" The gel coated paper was from an art supply store,and it was a product with a matching solvent made especially for silk sceening. But like I said, a friend recently made very professional looking T-shirts for her extended family's summer camp using only typing paper, so I think there are a lot of alternatives which will work if you have the patience to try them. For something that has lots and lots of fine cutting, I would go to the art store or Dharma Trading and see what they sell currently for the silk screen artist. If you are going to put that much work into something, I'd want some insurance ahead o f time that it would work. Yes, linoleum will work--glue it to a plywood 1" thick block first and carve with Speedball knives. Linoleum is rare on floors any more, as it hasn't been used for that purpose since about 1965. Asbestos floor tile (which is still made and installed) creates a dust when cut which you shouldn't breathe, and it is very brittle anyway, which would make it bad for this purpose. I've never used vinyl, but my *guess* is that it would work just fine. Prepared linoleum blocks are available at most art stores in a variety f greeting card sizes, and are inexpensive. They are always displayed next to the aforementioned Speedball knives. Dharma Trading has a help line and e-mail . Ask them what to use. Ditto, most good art stores have pretty knowledgeable personnel. Hope H. Dunlap - -----Original Message----- From: owner-h-costume@indra.com [mailto:owner-h-costume@indra.com]On Behalf Of Lynn Meyer Sent: Wednesday, March 17, 1999 4:14 PM To: h-costume-digest@indra.com Subject: H-COST: Re: h-costume-digest V4 #214 - -Poster: Lynn Meyer I finally made time to really read the details on screen-printing that people have posted... Hope, thanks for the detailed explanation on the silk-screening process -- fascinating stuff! It was very clear, and I've saved it all for future reference. Sounds like acetate/mylar contact paper might be today's equivalent of the gelled paper you used years ago? I think smearing must have been my trouble when I tried it before, rather than spreading, since it definitely was textile paint rather than dye (and bought from an art supply store that usually has pretty good materials). Sarah, thank you also! Also tucked safely away for reference :-) You mentioned linoleum for making stamps... is that ordinary linoleum? I'm going to have damaged bathroom and kitchen floors replaced in a house I'm buying, so it would be easy to save some extra linoleum from that, if it would be suitable. Also, let me see if I understood you or not: for silk-screening, you want a thick paint that sits on top of the fabric ("sour cream or thicker", as Hope said) -- but when you discussed "painting on fabric" or "hand-painting", the kind that your interior-decorator employer used, you meant brush and fabric and paint, no other tools (no silkscreens, no stencils,...) -- is that right? And the Liquitex acrylic was the right kind of fabric paint for this, not for silkscreening? What kind of fabric paint would be good for stamping? I just looked up Dharma Trading, since I remembered that they sell fabric paints, but they have so many kinds that it's overwhelming! (They're at http://www.dharmatrading.com, or (800) 542-5227 to order their catalog.) And for any of these, would it make a difference on what kind of paint to use if it's a small design ("eraser-size") or a large design (say a foot or two across -- I have no idea if this is practical for any form of textile painting, but I've seen it in lots of period fabric). I used to dream about weaving that kind of pattern someday, but the kind of loom I'd need costs about $30,000 from AVL, alas! Not to mention how long it would take to set it up if I *could* get at one. Thanks again, Halima ____________________________________________________________ _____ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Margo Anderson Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 07:17:19 -0800 (PST) Subject: H-COST: low list activity - -Poster: Margo Anderson For the past few days, I've been getting around 10 messages a day, instead of the usual 50+. Am I missing messages, or are you all doing something else? Margo _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Kyna Grannd" Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 11:04:50 -0500 Subject: Re: H-COST: low list activity - -Poster: "Kyna Grannd" Me too...so I guess everyone is doing something else :) Personally I'm waiting for my new sewing room to be finished. I've got a stack of patterns I want to make muslin's for and a stock closet that is absolutely bursting. I've just gotten tired of moving my computer work off the work table and cleaning everything else off the kitchen table in order to sew. It's one of the project where in order to do it, it seems you have to up-end the entire house into chaos. I guess as long as it doesn't turn into one of those projects that never completes and drags on for life-times ::grins:: Suz aka Kyna - -----Original Message----- From: Margo Anderson To: h-costume@indra.com Date: Thursday, March 18, 1999 9:52 AM Subject: H-COST: low list activity > >-Poster: Margo Anderson > >For the past few days, I've been getting around 10 messages a day, instead >of the usual 50+. Am I missing messages, or are you all doing something else? > >Margo > > _________________________________________________________________ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME > _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "StitchWitch" Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 10:43:24 PST Subject: H-COST: Vintage Clothing & Textile Sale in Seattle - -Poster: "StitchWitch" Hello! Sorry if you get this twice, but I wanted to make sure anyone with an interest was aware of this March 27th & 28th, there will be a sale of vintage clothing & textiles (like the header says!) at the Seattle Center Pavilion. According to the flyer, there will be 50+ booths, with vendors from 6 states. There is also an early buying time on Friday (the 26th), 6-9:30 pm, with a fee of $10 to attend this. More info? Call 509-375-5273 Kate - ---- StitchWitch All things are possible until they are proved impossible - and even the impossible may only be so, as of now. - Pearl S. Buck _______________________________________________________ Get your free, private email at http://mail.excite.com/ _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Susannah Eanes" Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 11:02:35 PST Subject: Re: H-COST: Susannah, do you wear stays... - -Poster: "Susannah Eanes" > >-Poster: Marsha McLean > >I have worn a heavily bones Elizabethan corset to: chop wood, fence, carry a >very large toddler (arms or shoulders), dance a lively galliard, make love >};^)>, sing madrigals, cook, carry groceries..... And I have belly danced >in full court Elizabethan with all the bells and whistles down to proper >garters. As a large busted woman, also a former dancer, I LOVE the support >and generally prefer my corset to a bra. I DO strongly encourage one to >have one's corset custom fitted by someone competent. I could never, nor >never knew anyone who, could fit myself and not get an uncomfortable >corset. >Marsha/Madinia > > > > I was strongly "challenged" on this list about a year & a half ago for making this same type of statement, that I wore corsetry on a daily basis as part of my "research" on them. Reason for my wanting to withdraw after it started up again. Seems that *many* modern scholars really don't believe that anyone ever did wear corsets & work, ride horses, take care of children, etc., despite the numerous social and physical inferences of this claim, the lack of evidence that it is true, and the strong amount of period evidence to the contrary. I wonder how many of the same things we are capable of doing today while interpreting & doing living history while wearing corsets, actually were performed more often than not by corseted women. I would bet my steel bones that all of them were. But I cannot draw this conclusion unequivocably without further evidence from many other areas of the country. I have been in the process of collecting photos, paintings, studies of garments, diary notations, period letters, and many other references. The evidence I have collected so far points clearly to the fact that many working women and women who performed daily chores in the South, wore corsets on a daily basis. I cannot say this with certainty in other areas, but not all of my evidence comes from the South, either. The indications are that what we traditionally think of as "Northern" states and New England states also show many cases of working women, and women working, wearing corsets. The limited knowledge I have of western people (beyond the Mississippi) is tied in with maternity and religious matters. I cannot draw a firm conclusion yet. But I would say that it is harmful to state or to even hint, that working "class" women were not likely to wear corsetry, or that women "removed" or "omitted" their corsets in order to perform work. The evidence I have collected and in conversations with Saundra Altman, Lynne Z. Bassett, and others points to a different conclusion. As I have stated before, this is an ongoing project. But I and others see less evidence for the afore-stated belief, that women did not wear corsets to perform work. I got tired of reading & hearing this over & over in many different costume, womens' history, and social history contexts, and deliberately set out to see just how much I as a small, healthy, hopefully competent person could do, wearing normal corseting. And Idid firmly believe that if I can do it, so must have some of them. I don't know near enough about the subject, but I am learning more every day. It isn't hard to work wearing a corset, in fact, it's easier. It helps with heavy lifting, it helps you to control your meal portions, it helps you to be mindful of correct posture, all things that even common people were likely to be concerned with. I could make other claims that would have no basis at all in history, so I won't, and I appreciate all of your time & messages on this subject. I'll continue to study corsetry & common folk. I'll continue to wear corsets & interpret farm life when I'm not at my new day-job. And looking at these interesting posts, gee, maybe I'm not so unusual after all... Thanks for your post. Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Margretta de Vries Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 11:37:42 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: H-COST: do you wear stays... - -Poster: Margretta de Vries Just a comment: Last Halloween, I wore a silk brocade period 1880s corset to work (with more underneath it than usual). Working in the parking department of a public state university, and see *many* people on a daily basis, I found it interesting that the only comments I got were from the girls in theater who were at the time putting up "Oklahoma!", wondering if I was completely uncomfortable wearing it... My answer was "no, do you think I'd be wearing it otherwise?" Although I do not wear a corset on a regular basis, I have often thought that I ought to, because I find them *far* more comfortable than any bra! Does anyone have any suggestions for what materials I should use if I were to make a corset for regular usage? Margretta == Margretta de Vries _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Megan Irvine Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 15:24:32 -0500 Subject: Re: H-COST: do you wear stays... - -Poster: Megan Irvine Margretta de Vries wrote: > Does anyone have any suggestions for what materials I should use if I > were to make a corset for regular usage? I made my first corset out of plain white corset coutil--it's very sturdy and it breathes, and it has survived several washings. You can get it from places like Farthingale's and Alter Years. I would also try cotton canvas or denim. If you're not going to wear anything underneath it (like a chemise or T-shirt), then I would line it with something soft, like flannel. - -- Megan Irvine _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Susannah Eanes" Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 12:36:36 PST Subject: Re: H-COST: do you wear stays... - -Poster: "Susannah Eanes" > >Does anyone have any suggestions for what materials I should use if I >were to make a corset for regular usage? > >Margretta > My personal suggestion would be cotton drill, lined with muslin or lightweight cotton. A nicer alternative, for nicer use, might be cotton sateen or heavy silk satin. You will have to be careful about reinforcing the seams; satin weaves tend to wear more easily. If you want further suggestions you may e-mail me privately. Susannah Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ End of h-costume-digest V4 #221 ******************************* _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME-DIGEST From ???@??? Mon Mar 22 10:28:59 1999 Received: from mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE (mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE [130.149.4.16]) by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA14483 for ; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 00:03:13 +0100 (MET) Received: from mail.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.15]) by mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10O8IK-0004MA-00; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 00:03:12 +0100 Received: from coal.bg.tu-berlin.de by mail.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Sat, 20 Mar 1999 00:03:00 +0100 Received: from mail.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.15]) by mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10O8I4-0004M5-00; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 00:02:56 +0100 Received: from tubkom.prz.tu-berlin.de by mail.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Sat, 20 Mar 1999 00:02:44 +0100 Received: from mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE (mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE [130.149.4.16]) by tubkom.prz.tu-berlin.de (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA20247 for ; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 00:01:14 +0100 (MEZ) Received: from mail.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.15]) by mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10O8Hn-0004KY-00; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 00:02:39 +0100 Received: from server.indra.com by mail.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Sat, 20 Mar 1999 00:02:18 +0100 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.8.5/) with ESMTP id QAA01545; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 16:46:31 -0700 (MST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id QAA21406 for h-costume-digest-outgoing; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 16:00:50 -0700 (MST) Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 16:00:50 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199903192300.QAA21406@indra.com> From: owner-h-costume-digest@indra.com To: h-costume-digest@indra.com Subject: h-costume-digest V4 #222 Reply-To: h-costume-digest@indra.com Errors-To: owner-h-costume-digest@indra.com Precedence: bulk h-costume-digest Friday, 19 March 1999 Volume 04 : Number 222 In this issue: Re: H-COST: do you wear stays... H-COST: Vintage Vogue, Part Two Re: H-COST: do you wear stays... Re: H-COST: Corsets again Re: H-COST: Corsets again Re: H-COST: do you wear stays... Re: H-COST: Vintage Vogue, Part Two Re: H-COST: Vintage Vogue, Part Two Re: H-COST: Vintage Vogue, Part Two Re: H-COST: do you wear stays... Re: H-COST: Vintage Vogue, Part Two H-COST: Exhibit- Bloomington, Illinois Re: H-COST: 1850's flounced dress H-COST: Old Clothes ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Susannah Eanes" Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 12:40:52 PST Subject: Re: H-COST: do you wear stays... - -Poster: "Susannah Eanes" About constructing a nice corset -- I forgot to mention my favorite: cotton coutil! Harder to find, but a much nicer, very durable corset. Sources may be found easier on the west coast but the last time I bought it wholesale from a local fabric store who ordered 15 yards for me. You might ask the more exclusive shop dealers in your area about this (you know, the ones that carry mostly $25.00 a yard silks & fine Pendelton wools--- the bolt cost me about $80.00 to order, well worth it for my purposes). Again, Susannah Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "StitchWitch" Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 12:59:22 PST Subject: H-COST: Vintage Vogue, Part Two - -Poster: "StitchWitch" Hello! I was wandering around the fabric shop, minding my own business, when the call of the pattern table became too strong to ignore. So, I sat down and began leafing through the spring Vogue selections. There are four 'new' patterns in the Vintage line (that I could find, anyway). One from the '30s, and three from the '50s. They are: #2241 - 1931 evening gown. This is a close-fitting item, with some interesting triangular pieces on the waistline. It looks like it would be flattering to someone with a bit of 'hip'. #2239 - 1950 evening gown. This is done in the 'pouf' floor-length skirt style, with a fairly simple bodice. #2267 - 1954 day dress. Something June Cleaver might wear around the house. (Didn't get the fourth #, darn it!) - 1951 day dress. Something June Cleaver might wear out shopping. Be sure to check out the hat the model is wearing. Way cool! Happy shopping! Kate - ---- StitchWitch All things are possible until they are proved impossible - and even the impossible may only be so, as of now. - Pearl S. Buck _______________________________________________________ Get your free, private email at http://mail.excite.com/ _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Date: Thu, 18 Mar 99 16:51:35 -0500 Subject: Re: H-COST: do you wear stays... - -Poster: Susannah wrote, >I forgot to mention my favorite: cotton coutil! Harder to find, but a >much nicer, very durable corset. It can be purchased by the yard from Greenberg & Hammer, 212-246-2835 or 1-800-955-5135. It's about $10 per yard. -Carol Kocian _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Marsha J. Hamilton" Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 17:42:44 -0500 Subject: Re: H-COST: Corsets again - -Poster: "Marsha J. Hamilton" >..Seems that *many* ...really don't believe that anyone ever did >wear corsets & work, ride horses, take care of children, etc.... - ------------ Comment: Slightly different time period, but..... My grandma was born in 1899. From young girlhood until she died at the age of 91, she wore corsets. As an adult, she wore a one-piece girdle (bra/midriff/thigh) that looked like a torture device but she swore she didn't feel comfortable with it off because she was so used to it. She was an active woman, walked several miles to work, took in and did laundry by hand wearing it, gardened in it, did heavy housework (like scrubbing floors) in it...she only took it off when sleeping. I have to smile when I remember her and my great-aunts talking disparagingly about a woman who went out "without her foundations." We were at a picnic at the beach in the 70's and they STILL looked down on women who didn't have a corset on (at a beach picnic!) I have no trouble believing women worked in corsets! Marsha Hamilton _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Historn@aol.com Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 17:51:52 EST Subject: Re: H-COST: Corsets again - -Poster: Historn@aol.com March 18, 1999 Are you sure we don't have the SAME grandmother?!? My grandmother (born in 1895) wore the very same foundation garment (something a cross between a girdle and long-line bra) until her death at 97 - she, too, felt the very same way, that she just wasn't "secure" without her corset! Betty Ownsbey _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "TC Carstensen" Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 18:56:09 -0500 Subject: Re: H-COST: do you wear stays... - -Poster: "TC Carstensen" Margretta de Vries wrote: >Although I do not wear a corset on a regular basis, I have often >thought that I ought to, because I find them *far* more comfortable >than any bra! I'd say that they are a heck of a lot more comfortable than pantyhose, too. >Does anyone have any suggestions for what materials I should use if I >were to make a corset for regular usage? Go for the spiral steel boning. The extra flexibility makes a corset that much more comfortable. TC Carstensen _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Lynn Downward Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 15:56:14 -0800 Subject: Re: H-COST: Vintage Vogue, Part Two - -Poster: Lynn Downward >-Poster: "StitchWitch" > >Hello! > >I was wandering around the fabric shop, minding my own business, when the >call of the pattern table became too strong to ignore. So, I sat down and >began leafing through the spring Vogue selections. > >There are four 'new' patterns in the Vintage line (that I could find, >anyway). One from the '30s, and three from the '50s. They are: > >#2241 - 1931 evening gown. This is a close-fitting item, with some >interesting triangular pieces on the waistline. It looks like it would be >flattering to someone with a bit of 'hip'. > >#2239 - 1950 evening gown. This is done in the 'pouf' floor-length skirt >style, with a fairly simple bodice. > >#2267 - 1954 day dress. Something June Cleaver might wear around the house. > >(Didn't get the fourth #, darn it!) - 1951 day dress. Something June Cleaver >might wear out shopping. Be sure to check out the hat the model is wearing. >Way cool! > >Happy shopping! > >Kate >---- >StitchWitch > >All things are possible until they are proved impossible - and even the >impossible may only be so, as of now. - Pearl S. Buck YES! I bought the two day dresses at lunch today. Very pretty. JoAnn Fabrics has one of their 75% off Vogue sales again so it didn't cost as much as it could have. I passed on the other two though; I didn't like the bias cut on the '31 evening dress - not on MY figure. And I have a couple of vintage patterns exactly like the evening gown. I still have the other four vintage patterns to make up though. LynnD _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Lynn Downward Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 15:57:37 -0800 Subject: Re: H-COST: Vintage Vogue, Part Two - -Poster: Lynn Downward >-Poster: "StitchWitch" > >Hello! > >I was wandering around the fabric shop, minding my own business, when the >call of the pattern table became too strong to ignore. So, I sat down and >began leafing through the spring Vogue selections. > >There are four 'new' patterns in the Vintage line (that I could find, >anyway). One from the '30s, and three from the '50s. They are: > >#2241 - 1931 evening gown. This is a close-fitting item, with some >interesting triangular pieces on the waistline. It looks like it would be >flattering to someone with a bit of 'hip'. > >#2239 - 1950 evening gown. This is done in the 'pouf' floor-length skirt >style, with a fairly simple bodice. > >#2267 - 1954 day dress. Something June Cleaver might wear around the house. > >(Didn't get the fourth #, darn it!) - 1951 day dress. Something June Cleaver >might wear out shopping. Be sure to check out the hat the model is wearing. >Way cool! > >Happy shopping! > >Kate >---- >StitchWitch > >All things are possible until they are proved impossible - and even the >impossible may only be so, as of now. - Pearl S. Buck > Forgot to mention: the 1951 day dress is #2268. LynnD _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Rob" Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 19:22:22 -0600 Subject: Re: H-COST: Vintage Vogue, Part Two - -Poster: "Rob" I made the 1931 evening gown for a production of Mikado set in the thirties.....turned out very well the rear wings onthe back could be larger rob - ---------- >From: Lynn Downward >To: h-costume@indra.com >Subject: Re: H-COST: Vintage Vogue, Part Two >Date: Thu, Mar 18, 1999, 5:56 PM > > >-Poster: Lynn Downward > >>-Poster: "StitchWitch" >> >>Hello! >> >>I was wandering around the fabric shop, minding my own business, when the >>call of the pattern table became too strong to ignore. So, I sat down and >>began leafing through the spring Vogue selections. >> >>There are four 'new' patterns in the Vintage line (that I could find, >>anyway). One from the '30s, and three from the '50s. They are: >> >>#2241 - 1931 evening gown. This is a close-fitting item, with some >>interesting triangular pieces on the waistline. It looks like it would be >>flattering to someone with a bit of 'hip'. >> >>#2239 - 1950 evening gown. This is done in the 'pouf' floor-length skirt >>style, with a fairly simple bodice. >> >>#2267 - 1954 day dress. Something June Cleaver might wear around the house. >> >>(Didn't get the fourth #, darn it!) - 1951 day dress. Something June Cleaver >>might wear out shopping. Be sure to check out the hat the model is wearing. >>Way cool! >> >>Happy shopping! >> >>Kate >>---- >>StitchWitch >> >>All things are possible until they are proved impossible - and even the >>impossible may only be so, as of now. - Pearl S. Buck > > >YES! I bought the two day dresses at lunch today. Very pretty. JoAnn >Fabrics has one of their 75% off Vogue sales again so it didn't cost as >much as it could have. I passed on the other two though; I didn't like the >bias cut on the '31 evening dress - not on MY figure. And I have a couple >of vintage patterns exactly like the evening gown. I still have the other >four vintage patterns to make up though. > >LynnD > _________________________________________________________________ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Lady Eleanor Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 17:41:49 -0800 Subject: Re: H-COST: do you wear stays... - -Poster: Lady Eleanor My suggestion...for what it's worth, would be 2 layers of heavy, very well washed linen, with Rigilene boning. It wouldn't really need a lining or a cover, but if you want to be "period", then linen for lining and thin silk for the cover. :-) That's what I'd do. Less than two cents worth, Lady Eleanor Susannah Eanes wrote: > > -Poster: "Susannah Eanes" > > > > >Does anyone have any suggestions for what materials I should use if I > >were to make a corset for regular usage? > > > >Margretta > > > > My personal suggestion would be cotton drill, lined with muslin or > lightweight cotton. A nicer alternative, for nicer use, might be cotton > sateen or heavy silk satin. You will have to be careful about > reinforcing the seams; satin weaves tend to wear more easily. If you > want further suggestions you may e-mail me privately. > > Susannah > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > _________________________________________________________________ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Sue Shatto Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 21:08:36 -0500 Subject: Re: H-COST: Vintage Vogue, Part Two - -Poster: Sue Shatto And you do know that Joann's has these $25 patterns on sale this week for 75% off! >#2241 - 1931 evening gown. This is a close-fitting item, with some >interesting triangular pieces on the waistline. It looks like it would be >flattering to someone with a bit of 'hip'. > >#2239 - 1950 evening gown. This is done in the 'pouf' floor-length skirt >style, with a fairly simple bodice. > >#2267 - 1954 day dress. Something June Cleaver might wear around the house. > >(Didn't get the fourth #, darn it!) - 1951 day dress. Something June Cleaver >might wear out shopping. Be sure to check out the hat the model is wearing. >Way cool! > >Happy shopping! > >Kate >---- >StitchWitch > >All things are possible until they are proved impossible - and even the >impossible may only be so, as of now. - Pearl S. Buck > > > > >_______________________________________________________ >Get your free, private email at http://mail.excite.com/ > _________________________________________________________________ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME > > Cordially, Sue Shatto Sue@VictorianMillinery.com http://www.VictorianMillinery.com _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: M311@aol.com Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 21:06:44 EST Subject: H-COST: Exhibit- Bloomington, Illinois - -Poster: M311@aol.com I thought that I would let you all know of an exhibit near me. The David Davis Mansion is having one on Wedding gowns. I haven't been to this exhibit yet, am going tomorrow if nothing happens. I have been to the masion before though. It is very nicely down and full of vintage stuff. Every December they have in decorated as it was when the daughter married in the late 1800's. I can't remember the date. If anyone is in the area it is a very nice place to tour. Kelly Albrecht m311@aol.com The following is the info on the exhibit: To Love and Cherish: Wedding Gowns and Traditions of the Past One Hundred Years -- Vintage wedding gowns, dresses, wedding accessories, bridal bouquets, more; 9 a.m.-4 p.m. Thu.-Mon., through March 31; David Davis Mansion, 1000 E. Monroe St., Bloomington. $2 (adults) and $1 (children) donation. 309/828-1084. _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Susannah Eanes" Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 06:34:33 PST Subject: Re: H-COST: 1850's flounced dress - -Poster: "Susannah Eanes" > >-Poster: Bette Anne Adams > > >Margo, > >In our collection we have several cotton dresses of the 1850's made with >fan fronts and flounced skirts. Most of the sleeves are of the small >pagoda. The cottons are all light and sheer. Decoration is minimal, >with hand embroidered insertions being used on the dresses of mull. A >few are a'disposition. All have the flounces laid on using a corded top >edge using a fine cotton cord and a 1/2 inch turned plain hem. The >flounces are all cut on the bias. The sleeves likewise are finished >with a plain turned hem. I have seen very few cotton dresses with >anything approaching an applied trim other than that made of self fabric, >although I have seen children's cotton dresses and the odd adult's dress >of cotton on which the ruffles are finished with a binding of contrasting >cotton bias. > >Bette Anne Adams > Dear Betty Anne, I am interested in learning more about your gowns. It seems as if you are talking about several gowns in one collection made very similarly. Do you know if any were made or worn in the southern US? Provenance of any type would help. Where is your museum (or collection)? Are your garments available for photography or study? Thanks, Susannah Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Penny E. Ladnier" Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 18:05:39 -0500 (EST) Subject: H-COST: Old Clothes - -Poster: "Penny E. Ladnier" Laundry yesterday, historic costume today! A few years back, I promised the curator of the Valentine museum that when I did cleaned out my attic, that the Valentine could have my six kids old clothes. Two years ago, I moved and HAD to clean out the attic. I said that I wasn't moving all those boxes of clothes into my new home. Colleen, the curator and I went though boxes and boxes of the kids clothes to place into the Valentine's collection. She wanted children's clothing from the 80s and 90s. I thought, maybe one day, people would want to research what average kids wore in the 1980s and 90s. Low and behold... what was my laundry, a few years back, is now considered historic costume! Some of my kids clothes were chosen to be in the museum's new exhibit, "Is It a Girl or Boy?" opening April 11. This exhibit will encompass the past 200 years of American children's clothing. One outfit, that the curator is tickled with, is my daughter's pink floral biker shorts. Katie wore them when she was 3-4 years old. I gave them to the Valentine because I was tired of seeing her wear them. My girlfriends and I have giggled ourselves silly over this, because we call ourselves "The Laundry Queens". We can't help but be involved in children's fashions. We fold it every day. BTW, the Valentine has put out a catalog on this exhibit. You can call 804-649-0711 to get one. Later...Penny Penny E. Dunlap Ladnier Go to The Costume Gallery's Online Costume Ball'98 http://www.costumegallery.com/Costume_Ball/98.html _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ End of h-costume-digest V4 #222 ******************************* _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME-DIGEST From ???@??? Mon Mar 22 10:29:00 1999 Received: from mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE (mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE [130.149.4.16]) by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA22026 for ; Sun, 21 Mar 1999 19:20:14 +0100 (MET) Received: from mail.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.15]) by mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10OmpZ-0002c8-00; Sun, 21 Mar 1999 19:20:13 +0100 Received: from coal.bg.tu-berlin.de by mail.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Sun, 21 Mar 1999 19:20:00 +0100 Received: from mail.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.15]) by mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10OmpI-0002c1-00; Sun, 21 Mar 1999 19:19:56 +0100 Received: from tubkom.prz.tu-berlin.de by mail.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Sun, 21 Mar 1999 19:19:49 +0100 Received: from mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE (mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE [130.149.4.16]) by tubkom.prz.tu-berlin.de (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA27979 for ; Sun, 21 Mar 1999 19:18:11 +0100 (MEZ) Received: from mail.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.15]) by mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10Omp2-0002bg-00; Sun, 21 Mar 1999 19:19:40 +0100 Received: from server.indra.com by mail.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Sun, 21 Mar 1999 19:19:25 +0100 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.8.5/) with ESMTP id MAA27416; Sun, 21 Mar 1999 12:09:58 -0700 (MST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id LAA25720 for h-costume-digest-outgoing; Sun, 21 Mar 1999 11:18:04 -0700 (MST) Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 11:18:04 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199903211818.LAA25720@indra.com> From: owner-h-costume-digest@indra.com To: h-costume-digest@indra.com Subject: h-costume-digest V4 #223 Reply-To: h-costume-digest@indra.com Errors-To: owner-h-costume-digest@indra.com Precedence: bulk h-costume-digest Sunday, 21 March 1999 Volume 04 : Number 223 In this issue: H-COST: Claire Mc Cardell H-COST: Re: h-costume-digest V4 #221 H-COST: Re: h-costume-digest V4 #221 Re: H-COST: Claire Mc Cardell Re: H-COST: Claire Mc Cardell H-COST: Magazine Article Online RE: H-COST: Source for "Garter" necklaces, or "collars" H-COST: looking for a pattern H-COST: Gilded Age Tours update H-COST: Re: swing movie H-COST: How was the fair? H-COST: corsets Re: H-COST: corsets Re: H-COST: corsets Re: H-COST: Magazine Article Online ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Sue Shatto Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 22:18:47 -0500 Subject: H-COST: Claire Mc Cardell - -Poster: Sue Shatto Group! I need some expert help. As I'm sure you all know by now, I am chairman of our Historical Costume Ball on April 10. Each of the 50 tables will have a "tablescape" representative of a period in history. These will be sold via silent auction at the ball. I have been given a Claire McCardell dress to auction off. (Claire was a Frederickonian and her family is still here.) I am also on the board of directors for the Historical Society and always looking for some way for us to make some money. I would like a pattern of this wonderful dress to be made before it is sold on the tenth. Then we could offer this pattern for sale for the benefit of the Society.(much like the Wisconsin Historical Society has patterns for sale of several of their dresses) I'm afraid we have practically no money to stake this project and of course, it needs to be done right away since it will be sold soon. Do we have anyone on the list that has the expertise to draft a pattern like this? It is a fantastic piece that I'm sure would be an exciting experience for the person doing the study. Please let me know soon if anyone would be willing to do this or knows someone that would be willing to this . If I could not find enough funds to pay the costumer, I might be able to try a barter. I do have a large web site of vintage items we may be able to swap for. Thank you for your consideration. Cordially, Sue Shatto Sue@VictorianMillinery.com http://www.VictorianMillinery.com _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Gaelscot@aol.com Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 22:06:59 EST Subject: H-COST: Re: h-costume-digest V4 #221 - -Poster: Gaelscot@aol.com _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Gaelscot@aol.com Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 22:07:17 EST Subject: H-COST: Re: h-costume-digest V4 #221 - -Poster: Gaelscot@aol.com _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Gregor1572@aol.com Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 22:32:33 EST Subject: Re: H-COST: Claire Mc Cardell - -Poster: Gregor1572@aol.com I know of two possibilities for low- or no-cost pattern drafting after an original garment: 1) Contact a university with a theatrical costume or fashion design department. Students are often required to draft patterns or an instructor may be willing to do it for a free copy of the pattern. 2) Historical reenactment groups have people, like myself, who specialize in recreating historic fashions. It sounds like a Civil War reenactment group would suit your needs best, but also try the SCA. You can find an SCA group in your area by contacting the national website at http://www.sca.org Best of luck! Jim _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: rio@austin.rr.com (StrangeGirl) Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 03:49:06 GMT Subject: Re: H-COST: Claire Mc Cardell - -Poster: rio@austin.rr.com (StrangeGirl) On Fri, 19 Mar 1999 22:32:33 EST, you wrote: > 2) Historical reenactment groups have people, like myself, who specialize in > recreating historic fashions. It sounds like a Civil War reenactment >group would suit your needs best, but also try the SCA.=20 Just to clarify, Claire McCardell designed during the mid-part of this century, so historical reenactment groups would be an iffy bet, for the most part. As I have not seen the dress, i could not (obviously) make a judgement on which set of design/pattern drafting skills would be best suited to it, BUT her designs varied from extremely drapey to very tailored and were noted mostly for their innovative use of fabrics and comfort of wear. You will want to have the garment photographed in detail as well as patterned, so the design elements of fabric and drape are documented as well as cut. well... this is what I would do, in the same situation. Margery - -----rio@austin.rr.com---Goddess of Last Minute Miracles--- "We went out with both lips blazing, and a pen in either=20 hand..." - the Flash Girls - -{*to reply take spambegone from my reply-to address*}- _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Penny E. Ladnier" Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 01:46:40 -0500 (EST) Subject: H-COST: Magazine Article Online - -Poster: "Penny E. Ladnier" I just added an article to The Costume Gallery from The Ladies' Home Journal, Sept. 1893, called "The New Colors and Materials". This is a very large article and I broke it up into eight Webpages. This is an excellent article with the new fashion color names for 1893 and descriptions. For ease in reading, I placed the names in sections by color and then color-coded them. The textile sections discuss the silks and velvets... cost, how to tell quality, widths, and what's hot in fashion or not. Several other textiles are also discussed. There is a section called Combinations. This section is NOT talking about undergarments. This tells what combinations of textiles to wear with what type of costume. Lastly, there is a section about what to expect when making a "First Ball Gown". The main entrance to the article is http://www.costumegallery.com/LHJ/Sept_1893/Color/p18color.htm Have fun reading! Later...Penny Penny E. Dunlap Ladnier The Costume Gallery Website http://www.costumegallery.com _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: WICKHAM Raymond Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 22:36:27 +1100 Subject: RE: H-COST: Source for "Garter" necklaces, or "collars" - -Poster: WICKHAM Raymond Greetings gentles all I have vaguely been following the thread of this request And while in the UK I came across a group that may be of use Royal School of Needlework: Coronation robes, embroideries and major pieces Apt 12a Hampton court palace East Molesey Surrey KT8 9AU Tel 0181 9431432 Facs 0181 9434910 I visited them and they too me to their workshop in Windsor castle to view the collection of court regalia they have worked on over the last few royal houses If you ask in a reasonable manner they are quite accomodating Damocles Truhart _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Susan Fatemi Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 15:02:46 -0800 Subject: H-COST: looking for a pattern - -Poster: Susan Fatemi Sorry for any duplication, but I'm sending this to all my lists. This isn't very historical, but I know a lot of you have been sewing and collecting patterns for a long time and hope that somebody can help. I'm desperately searching for Vogue pattern 9080. It may be as old as 1985. It's a blouse with an asymmetrical "bib." If anyone has a copy and is willing to sell or lend it, I'd be very grateful. Susan Fatemi - -- Oh Noh! Kimonos! susanf@netwiz.net http://www.netwiz.net/~susanf _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "LGreene" Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 22:53:46 -0800 Subject: H-COST: Gilded Age Tours update - -Poster: "LGreene" Gilded Age Tours Newsletter - March 20, 1999 http://www.gildedagetours.com - - Preview pictures of Millenium New Year's Eve at Versailles - - Prices announced for Vintage Clothing Tours of Bath/London, and Manchester, Paris - - Vintage Dance Week update - - Lauriann is on her way to Paris! - - Vienna Waltz Tour planned for February/March, 2000 Greetings All! A lot has happenned since the last time I wrote! We've now got 7 tours fully planned and announced, and we've been getting tons of phone calls from all over the US and Canada asking for information. I just updated the web site at http://www.gildedagetours.com, and it includes these updates: - - Millenium New Year's Eve at Versailles and Tour of Paris, Dec. 28, 1999 - Jan. 2, 2000 The organizers in Paris keep sending us excited emails, saying that all plans are going well, and this New Year's Eve celebration will be even bigger and more fabulous than last New Year's Eve's "dress rehearsal" (and I heard from people who were there that it was incredible - we can only imagine the splendor in store for us for the Millenium!). Check out the new pictures from last year's celebration to get a taste of what this year's spectacular party will be like: http://www.gildedagetours.com/millenium.htm Remember, if you want to attend this once-in-a-lifetime party and tour, you must get your payment in to us by April 25th! Tickets are already sold out (don't worry-we've got 'em!), so don't delay! - - Vintage Clothing Tour of Bath/London England, June 12-20, 1999 We were finally able to confirm all of the bookings for this tour, so we've announced the prices. Please go to http://www.gildedagetours.com/VCbathprices.htm for all the details - - Vintage Clothing Tour of Manchester, England and Paris, France, Sept. 18-25, 1999 Finally have the prices for this great trip as well! Check it out at http://www.gildedagetours.com/VCManParisprices.htm - - Vintage Dance Week in Paris, "Paris in the Jazz Age", July 30 - Aug. 8, 1999 Things are shaping up well for this trip. The latest news is that we were able to arrange to not only have dancing on board the Compagnie du Ruban Bleu, a lovely old barge on the Seine River, but we'll also be dining in their very good restaurant on the top floor overlooking the river before we dance. Many other great dances are planned at wonderful vintage venues - for more info, go to http://www.gildedagetours.com/vintage.htm MEN: there are a number of lovely ladies wanting to come on this trip, but they need gentlemen to dance with - don't let them be wallflowers! Sign up! - - Bon Voyage, Lauriann! I'm off to Paris in a week for an extended stay while I lead tours and research future tours. I'll be staying in Montmartre, one of Paris' most colorful and romantic districts. My assistant in Florida will be available to take your inquiries, and I'll be available by email to answer all of your questions. While I'm in Europe, I'll be making lots of new contacts, to keep Gilded Age Tours fresh and ever-growing. - - Vienna Waltz Tour, end Feb./begin. March, 2000 We've just started planning a tour of Vienna to include the annual gala Opera Ball, as well as two other balls, a waltz lesson from Viennese instructors, tickets to the Opera and Ballet, and sightseeing. Please let us know if you're interested, and we'll be sure to send you information as soon as it's available. Thanks so much for reading. I hope you'll join us soon in Europe for an unforgettable vintage vacation! Best regards, Lauriann Greene President, Gilded Age Tours - --------------------------------------------- Gilded Age Tours: http://www.gildedagetours.com Unforgettable Vintage Vacations in Europe - Vintage Clothing Shopping, Legacy of Lace, Vintage and Swing Dance, Millenium New Year's Eve at Versailles. _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Gaelscot@aol.com Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 08:37:08 EST Subject: H-COST: Re: swing movie - -Poster: Gaelscot@aol.com Ouch! Just reading that description hurts! Gail Finke _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Andrea Clef Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 14:06:29 +0100 Subject: H-COST: How was the fair? - -Poster: Andrea Clef Hello everybody! I just remembered the UK reenactors fair about which I asked some months ago. Did someone of you attend the Blackbird Leys market in Oxford, what was it like? Which costumes were offered? And do you already know the date for the autumn`s fair? Greetings, Diana _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "R.L. Shep" Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 08:40:39 -0800 Subject: H-COST: corsets - -Poster: "R.L. Shep" I notice that once again there is a lot of discussion about corsets and when and how much they were worn. It might be well to point out that even though some of you might find that you can wear a corset to do any number of things - - that does not mean that historically they were or were not worn for such activities and what class or type of women wore them for what. If you are interested there is a Corset Newsletter from B.R. Creations. P.O. Bx 4201. Mountain View, CA 94040. It costs $18 per year. Much of what they have to say is devoted to modern wears of corsets, but they usually have some historical articles as well. In the January issue there is an article entitled *Men in Corsets*. There is also a web page http://www.netmagic.net/~dmcgrath/brcreations I have not checked the web page out but there it is for you to do so if you wish. ~!~ R.L.Shep http://www.mcn.org/e/fsbks _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: LuAnnMason@aol.com Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 13:09:29 EST Subject: Re: H-COST: corsets - -Poster: LuAnnMason@aol.com In a message dated 3/21/99 11:50:50 AM EST, rlshep@jps.net writes: << It might be well to point out that even though some of you might find that you can wear a corset to do any number of things - that does not mean that historically they were or were not worn for such activities and what class or type of women wore them for what. >> Absolutely true. However, I think the bulk of this anecdotal "evidence" (the wearing of period styled corsets by modern women performing heavy work) was a response to the assumption that because *some* modern women are uncomfortable wearing corsets while engaging in heavy work, *most* women of previous times eschewed corsets while working. There is simply not enough evidence to support this assumption, IMO. LuAnn _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Margo Anderson Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 10:04:56 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: H-COST: corsets - -Poster: Margo Anderson >If you are interested there is a Corset Newsletter from B.R. Creations. P.O. >Bx 4201. Mountain View, CA 94040. It costs $18 per year. >Much of what they have to say is devoted to modern wears of corsets To elaborate, much of what they have to say deals with corset fetishism. If anyone is bothered by this sort of thing, you might not want to go there. Margo _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Margo Anderson Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 10:09:09 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: H-COST: Magazine Article Online - -Poster: Margo Anderson > >I just added an article to The Costume Gallery Nice article, Penny. While I was on your site, I took another look at "Cyber Cinderella". I'm curious about the end result of the "walking clothes rack" aproach. Did it work? Did anyone ever buy that dress, or contact Diane about having a dress made, after seeing the site? I'd ask Diane, but I don't think she's on the list anymore. Margo _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ End of h-costume-digest V4 #223 ******************************* _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME-DIGEST From ???@??? Mon Mar 22 10:29:01 1999 Received: from mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE (mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE [130.149.4.16]) by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id DAA23999 for ; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 03:12:07 +0100 (MET) Received: from mail.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.15]) by mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10OuCE-0004KP-00; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 03:12:06 +0100 Received: from coal.bg.tu-berlin.de by mail.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Mon, 22 Mar 1999 03:11:58 +0100 Received: from mail2.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.14]) by mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10OuC3-0004KJ-00; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 03:11:55 +0100 Received: from tubkom.prz.tu-berlin.de by mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Mon, 22 Mar 1999 03:11:54 +0100 Received: from mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE (mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE [130.149.4.16]) by tubkom.prz.tu-berlin.de (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id DAA00664 for ; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 03:10:21 +0100 (MEZ) Received: from mail.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.15]) by mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10OuBz-0004KE-00; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 03:11:51 +0100 Received: from server.indra.com by mail.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Mon, 22 Mar 1999 03:11:48 +0100 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.8.5/) with ESMTP id UAA25910; Sun, 21 Mar 1999 20:03:21 -0700 (MST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id TAA06520 for h-costume-digest-outgoing; Sun, 21 Mar 1999 19:10:28 -0700 (MST) Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 19:10:28 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199903220210.TAA06520@indra.com> From: owner-h-costume-digest@indra.com To: h-costume-digest@indra.com Subject: h-costume-digest V4 #224 Reply-To: h-costume-digest@indra.com Errors-To: owner-h-costume-digest@indra.com Precedence: bulk h-costume-digest Sunday, 21 March 1999 Volume 04 : Number 224 In this issue: H-COST: Reenactment, Living History, Recreation, etc. Re: H-COST: corsets Re: H-COST: Reenactment, Living History, Recreation, etc. Re: H-COST: Reenactment, Living History, Recreation, etc. H-COST: 1890s Cutting Guide for Ladies' Garments Re: H-COST: Reenactment, Living History, Recreation, etc. H-COST: FW: seeing is believing Re: H-COST: corsets Re: H-COST: Reenactment, Living History, Recreation, etc. Re: H-COST: Reenactment, Living History, Recreation, etc. Re: H-COST: Reenactment, Living History, Recreation, etc. H-COST: My apologies, most of all to Susan Carroll-Clark ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Margo Anderson Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 10:21:28 -0800 (PST) Subject: H-COST: Reenactment, Living History, Recreation, etc. - -Poster: Margo Anderson Okay, THIS should get the list talking. I'm working on my costume class outlines, and I'd like to discuss costuming for different purposes, and the levels of autheticity expected for each. What are the various areas of costuming, and what are the specific needs and requirements for each? Have fun! Margo _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Ninni Pettersson Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 19:34:34 +0100 Subject: Re: H-COST: corsets - -Poster: Ninni Pettersson At 17.40 +0100 99-03-21, R.L. Shep wrote: > In the January issue >there is an article entitled *Men in Corsets*. This reminds me of something I read in a Dorothy L Sayer's novel and have always wondered about. In _Strong Poison_ from 1930 Lord Peter gives a vivid description of himself as an old man: "People will point me out, as I creep, bald and yellow and supported by discreet corsetry, into the nightclubs of my great-grandchildren [...]" Did men wear corsets in the 30s as a rule, or did just elderly men do so, or is it just pure fabrication by Lord Peter? If they did, when did they start wearing them, when did they stop? What kind of corsetry did they wear? In short: What *is* the history of men in corsets? /Ninni Pettersson _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Susan Carroll-Clark" Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 14:28:55 -0500 Subject: Re: H-COST: Reenactment, Living History, Recreation, etc. - -Poster: "Susan Carroll-Clark" Greetings! >Okay, THIS should get the list talking. I'm working on my costume class >outlines, and I'd like to discuss costuming for different purposes, and the >levels of autheticity expected for each. What are the various areas of >costuming, and what are the specific needs and requirements for each? Do you mean areas as in historical periods and/or specific groups? Or perhaps needs of living history sites vs. those of reenactment groups vs. those of groups like the SCA, the Jane Austen society, or folks doing period dance? Susan Carroll-Clark _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Margo Anderson Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 11:32:43 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: H-COST: Reenactment, Living History, Recreation, etc. - -Poster: Margo Anderson > > >Do you mean areas as in historical periods and/or specific groups? No >perhaps needs of living history sites vs. those of reenactment groups vs. >those of groups like the SCA, the Jane Austen society, or folks doing period >dance? Yes, that's what I'm looking for. Thanks! Margo _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Margretta de Vries Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 12:40:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: H-COST: 1890s Cutting Guide for Ladies' Garments - -Poster: Margretta de Vries Several weeks ago, I received in the mail a most amazing brthday present! It is an Edition 1890 "Instruction Book with Diagrams of S.T. Taylor's Guide to Cutting Ladies Garments". I've perused it several times, and will have to take steps to preserve it before further use, but had a sudden thought: would anyone be interested in seeing this guide online? I will have to check the copyright on it, but I think that will not be a problem. I'm sure it will be a time-consuming project, but I'd love to share my new wealth of information with anyone who is interested... :) If you have tips, please let me know; you could also send them to me privately, if you wish... Margretta == Margretta de Vries _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Lavolta Press Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 12:42:52 -0800 Subject: Re: H-COST: Reenactment, Living History, Recreation, etc. - -Poster: Lavolta Press > > > >Okay, THIS should get the list talking. I'm working on my costume class > >outlines, and I'd like to discuss costuming for different purposes, and the > >levels of autheticity expected for each. What are the various areas of > >costuming, and what are the specific needs and requirements for each? > > Do you mean areas as in historical periods and/or specific groups? Or > perhaps needs of living history sites vs. those of reenactment groups vs. > those of groups like the SCA, the Jane Austen society, or folks doing period > dance? > > S As for vintage and historic dance: There is no costuming standard. To dance, the absolute necessity is to have clothing in which the movements required for that type of dance can be done. Comfort (such as lightweight clothes and ease of movement) is valued by all dancers, but must be sacrificed to some extent when wearing most historic costumes. (Yes, I know that historic dances were performed in the clothing of the period, still can be, and still are by many people. Just the same, a cotton leotard and tights are more _comfortable_.) Most historic/vintage dancers are amateurs rather than performers, who pay to attend local dances. Such dances may be organized by a historic recreation group such as the SCA, primarily for its members. In this case the "authenticity" requirements are whatever is normally imposed by the group. Many other dances are advertised and open to the general public. It is rare for the organizers to require any sort of authenticity. They often make no dress requirements at all. If they make any, they say something like "period or formal modern attire"; but even so, people are seldom turned away at the door. Although most people "dress up," attire varies from beautifully executed period evening wear, through not-very-successful beginner costuming or token attempts, through vintage clothing, to modern ballgowns and business suits. The majority of historic/vintage dance performance groups are semiprofessional, in the sense that although they may sometimes be paid they do not make a living dancing. Semiprofessional dancers are usually expected to make their own costumes or pay someone to do it. They are sometimes formal organized groups who rehearse. In this case ome sort of costuming standard may be imposed, but this varies with the group and must take the dancers' costuming skills and budgets into account. Often the dancers also attend local historic/vintage dances, and wear whatever they've been wearing to those. Many dance performances or demos are far less formal. What happens is some organization, such as a local shopping mall, decides to have some "vintage dancing in the square" type activity for publicity. For example, a couple hours of Victorian dance on a weekend day around Christmas season. Usually the organization is not paying; so they contact some local recreationist or costuming group and ask whether members could participate. The recreationist or costuming group's newsletter or mailing list then posts a notice saying something like, "Whoever wants to participate, contact Sally for times." Then whoever wants to dance shows up, often without prior rehearsal. In this case, the dancers are usually people who dance at local historic/vintage dances, and wear whatever they've been wearing to those. A reasonable attempt at costuming is usually made--especially since the organization asking for dancers is usually primarily interested in local color rather than in the quality of dancing. However, it's recognized that if you're not paying for professionals, requiring them to provide "totally authentic" costumes (or for that matter to rehearse the dances) is not very reasonable. There are a few groups composed of regularly paid (sometimes even union) professional dancers, who often perform other types of dance such as ballet in other groups. They do not usually own or make costumes, but expect them to be provided as needed for performance. Such costumes are usually constructed like stage costumes: made with zippers or velcro for quick changes, visually effective from a distance, and alterable for different performers. Fran Grimble - ---------------------------------------------- Visit our web sites! Books on historic costume and vintage clothes http://www.best.com/~lavolta/index.htm Vintage and historic dance http://www.best.com/~lavolta/dance/index.htm _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "R.L. Shep" Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 14:52:15 -0800 Subject: H-COST: FW: seeing is believing - -Poster: "R.L. Shep" this was just too wonderful not to pass on to you. ~!~ R.L.Shep http://www.mcn.org/e/fsbks - ---------- From: India Smith-Gingell To: Lar Kurg , Richard Gibb ,Scotty Gingell , R L Shep Subject: seeing is believing Date: Sat, Mar 20, 1999, 7:05 AM this was tooooo much fun... can you hear me laughing..... http://www.angelfire.com/on/lummus/Scotland.html ;-* _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: M311@aol.com Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 19:32:16 EST Subject: Re: H-COST: corsets - -Poster: M311@aol.com In a message dated 3/21/99 10:52:18 AM Central Standard Time, rlshep@jps.net writes: << There is also a web page http://www.netmagic.net/~dmcgrath/brcreations >> I tried to go to this page and it said that it couldn't be found. Does anyone know the right address? Kelly Albrecht m311@aol.com _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Carol J. Bell Cannon" Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 17:32:05 -0800 Subject: Re: H-COST: Reenactment, Living History, Recreation, etc. - -Poster: "Carol J. Bell Cannon" At 02:28 PM 3/21/99 -0500, you wrote: -Poster: "Susan Carroll-Clark" >Greetings! ... ... Or >perhaps needs of living history sites vs. those of reenactment groups vs. >those of groups like the SCA, the Jane Austen society, or folks doing period >dance? --Susan Carroll-Clark Greetings, Mistress Nicolaa-- Forgive me, for the wording of your post has inadvertantly set off one of my rantmodes. I beg your pardon, Mistress Nicolaa and forbearance while I explain. I remain under the impression that the SCA is a reenactment group, albeit not so structured/strict as some others. Many of the people hereabouts in the SCA work as hard researching and constructing period items as those in the living history and Civil War/Revolutionary War groups. I know that varies from group to group, but it makes me uncomfortable to see everyone in the SCA characterized as 'not serious reenactors' because of the actions of the 'party' crowd. Too many scholars already have that impression of us. It's one I prefer not to help foster. Forgive me if I have mistaken your tone and intent, but the structure of your sentence could lead one to that interpretation. I realize you are or have been very active in the SCA, and that you yourself are very conscientious in your pursuit of historical accuracy, which is why this startled me... . I realize words are tricky things, too, and it is sometimes difficult to convey what one means without offending someone. Thank you for 'hearing me out'. I remain grateful for some of the teaching and help you provided to me when I joined the SCA and found the Rialto some years ago. Carol Cannon, aka: Gra/inne _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Susan Carroll-Clark" Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 20:50:44 -0500 Subject: Re: H-COST: Reenactment, Living History, Recreation, etc. - -Poster: "Susan Carroll-Clark" Greetings! OK, I'll bite and have a stab at describing what the SCA's needs are in this area: Officially, all that's needed to attend an SCA event is an "attempt at pre-17th century clothing." This tends to be fairly liberally interpreted, but not so much that modern fantasy (e.g. Klingon, vampire) or ACW attire would be welcomed. Usually, newcomers are steered towards simple tunics for their first clothes, and they are often warned off of obvious synthetics. Those who stick around usually want something that's better than just a simple attempt. And here, depending on the person's interest, is where you'll find all ranges of authenticity, from clothing made of handspun thread handwoven and then sewn into clothes to poly-cotton broadcloth generic tunics. The average SCA person usually settles on a particular period to focus on and tries to obtain clothing to match (although historic costume buffs often try out everything). Most will start off using one of the theatrical pattern books or the medieval/Renaissance lines of companies like Simplicity; those in the know may know about sources like Past Patterns. If one is sewing for an SCA person, the question to ask first is what period they have in mind, as well as how important authentic cut or fit or materials are to them. No two SCA people are likely to have the same opinion on this. Once this is figured out, that's the time to bring out the books and start looking for what the person wants. It's also important to keep climate in mind. A lot of SCA events, especially in the summer, are camping events; for these, simple clothing, usually in natural fibers, is preferred (especially in hot, humid climes). Hope this helps-- Susan Carroll-Clark _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Robin Netherton Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 21:02:06 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: H-COST: Reenactment, Living History, Recreation, etc. - -Poster: Robin Netherton Susan: > >perhaps needs of living history sites vs. those of reenactment groups vs. > >those of groups like the SCA, the Jane Austen society, or folks doing period > >dance? --Susan Carroll-Clark Carol: > I remain under the impression that the SCA is a reenactment group, > albeit not so structured/strict as some others. Many of the people > hereabouts in the SCA work as hard researching and constructing period > items as those in the living history and Civil War/Revolutionary War > groups. I know that varies from group to group, but it makes me > uncomfortable to see everyone in the SCA characterized as 'not serious > reenactors' because of the actions of the 'party' crowd. Too many scholars > already have that impression of us. It's one I prefer not to help foster. > Forgive me if I have mistaken your tone and intent, but the structure of > your sentence could lead one to that interpretation. I will let Susan clarify her meaning for herself, but speaking as someone who has operated both inside and outside several of these communities (including the academic community), I thought it might help to point out that many people use the term "re-enactment" to apply to people who play out a *specific* known event that occurred in the past. Examples might be the groups that recreate the Battle of Gettysburg or the Battle of Bosworth. Some people do this for fun, and some for profit, and standards of authenticity can vary depending on the purposes, people, and audiences involved. By this definition, which I think is fairly widely accepted, the SCA would not be considered a re-enactment group. Neither would the Jane Austen or Sherlock Holmes groups, or a lot of the extremely serious and accurate history demonstration groups I know whose purpose is to present an image that is characteristic of a certain place and time, but not to play out an actual historic event. I have heard some people describe what the SCA does as "re-creation," which is one way to explain the difference between a reenactment of a scripted scenario compared with the open-ended activity of the SCA. (No one knows in advance who's going to win an SCA battle.) As for "living history," I'm sure the use of the term varies, but I generally apply it to groups and sites that focus on a single place/time context, typically for educational purposes, but not necessarily re-enacting specific known events. In most groups like this, members are trained to portray specific characters within that context, and they have specific pre-determined social positions and relationships with other members of the group. By this definition, the SCA would not be called living history, as it allows for interaction among characters taken from 1,000 years of history and a broad geographical range. Also, in the SCA, people are free to pursue activities that are inconsistent with their personas (for instance, a woman with the persona of a 14th-century nun can also fight, do Celtic calligraphy, and play Elizabethan music). And people earn their rank in the SCA by their achievements and activities; rank isn't determined by their personas. Clearly, different types of groups have different purposes to serve, and their costume needs and standards will reflect that. I saw Susan's statement as addressing only the varied purposes of these groups. I didn't sense any implications about the seriousness of participants or their personal standards of costume, and I certainly didn't read in any allusions to a "party" reputation. - --Robin Netherton _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Carol J. Bell Cannon" Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 18:11:15 -0800 Subject: H-COST: My apologies, most of all to Susan Carroll-Clark - -Poster: "Carol J. Bell Cannon" I really have to watch my program and myself more closely. I had intended that for Susan alone, not all of the list. My sincere apologies...I will slink quietly away now...mortified by my own hand once again...Carol / Gra/inne _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ End of h-costume-digest V4 #224 ******************************* _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME-DIGEST From ???@??? Mon Mar 22 17:33:13 1999 Received: from mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE (mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE [130.149.4.16]) by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA00951 for ; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 17:28:45 +0100 (MET) Received: from mail.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.15]) by mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10P7ZD-00038y-00; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 17:28:43 +0100 Received: from coal.bg.tu-berlin.de by mail.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Mon, 22 Mar 1999 17:28:28 +0100 Received: from mail.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.15]) by mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10P7Yu-00038Z-00; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 17:28:24 +0100 Received: from tubkom.prz.tu-berlin.de by mail.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Mon, 22 Mar 1999 17:28:11 +0100 Received: from mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE (mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE [130.149.4.16]) by tubkom.prz.tu-berlin.de (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA07101 for ; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 17:26:38 +0100 (MEZ) Received: from mail.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.15]) by mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10P7Yd-00038D-00; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 17:28:07 +0100 Received: from server.indra.com by mail.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Mon, 22 Mar 1999 17:26:19 +0100 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.8.5/) with ESMTP id KAA03274; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 10:19:50 -0700 (MST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id JAA07749 for h-costume-digest-outgoing; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 09:24:35 -0700 (MST) Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 09:24:35 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199903221624.JAA07749@indra.com> From: owner-h-costume-digest@indra.com To: h-costume-digest@indra.com Subject: h-costume-digest V4 #225 Reply-To: h-costume-digest@indra.com Errors-To: owner-h-costume-digest@indra.com Precedence: bulk h-costume-digest Monday, 22 March 1999 Volume 04 : Number 225 In this issue: Re: H-COST: Reenactment, Living History, Recreation, etc. H-COST: OT- past debate H-COST: past debate RE: H-COST: Reenactment, Living History, Recreation, etc. RE: H-COST: 1890s Cutting Guide for Ladies' Garments H-COST: Oscar dresses Re: H-COST: Oscar dresses Re: H-COST: OT- past debate Re: H-COST: Reenactment, Living History, Recreation, etc. H-COST: Thanks Penny! / Wool/silk weave ? Re: H-COST: Oscar dresses Re: H-COST: 1890s Cutting Guide for Ladies' Garments ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Susan Carroll-Clark" Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 21:18:13 -0500 Subject: Re: H-COST: Reenactment, Living History, Recreation, etc. - -Poster: "Susan Carroll-Clark" Greetings! > I remain under the impression that the SCA is a reenactment group, >albeit not so structured/strict as some others. I do not consider the SCA to be reenactment. I consider "reenactment" to be fairly strictly defined to the actual reenactment of historical events (e.g. battles). However, don't read into that that I don't think the SCA is "as good" as those groups. The SCA at its finest certainly might qualify as living history (which is the much broader term for historical recreation). Look at where I placed the SCA. The folks I know in the Jane Austin Society do a pretty good job at recreating Regency balls. The folks I know involved with country dance or swing (and I mean the serious swing folks) do a pretty good job at recreating their social situations as well. But they're not "reenactors." Many of the people >hereabouts in the SCA work as hard researching and constructing period >items as those in the living history and Civil War/Revolutionary War >groups. Yes, they do. But I've learned over the years that being honest about what the SCA does is best. And to be honest, the SCA is a wonderful umbrella structure which brings together people with all kinds of interests, including recreating period crafts, period martial arts, or with interests in particular cultures. It also brings in folks who are there mostly to hang out with friends. We'd be as guilty of the same sin as those folks who portray the SCA as simply a party organization if we try to pretend they don't exist. I know that varies from group to group, but it makes me >uncomfortable to see everyone in the SCA characterized as 'not serious >reenactors' because of the actions of the 'party' crowd. Too many scholars >already have that impression of us. It's one I prefer not to help foster. Again, I think the problem here is terminology. Reenactment to me is not the end-all of historical accuracy. I've met enough "real" reenactors to know that their knowledge of history and ability to interpret it varies widely, too, and varies from group to group. There are plenty of military reenactors with perfect kit but no real clue about anything historic away from the battlefield. >Forgive me if I have mistaken your tone and intent, but the structure of >your sentence could lead one to that interpretation. I'm sorry, there's no way I could truthfully claim that the SCA as a whole has a high standard of historical accuracy. What I CAN truthfully claim is that within the SCA there are many knowledgeable people who have used the SCA as a path to serious historical research into many fields and crafts. I also find any interest in history, period, to be praiseworthy, so in many ways I'm happy that the SCA accepts the "party crowd"--many of whom eventually "grow up" and find they like this "history stuff." Serious scholars tend to give you a little more credence when you're willing to see both the good and bad sides of your own organization. Too many of those "serious scholars" think that the SCA is living in a fantasy world and cannot understand the difference between the "real Middle Ages" and the "current Middle Ages." When they meet real SCA members who can look at the SCA objectively and analyze its good and weak points, they stop writing the SCA off as a bunch of flakes. You've got to get that foot in the door before you can make the sale :-). > I realize you are or have been very active in the SCA, and that you >yourself are very conscientious in your pursuit of historical accuracy, >which is why this startled me... . I'm still very active in the SCA, and very interested in continuing to improve the accuracy level within it. Within the past couple of years, I've been taking a long, hard look at how the outside world (academia, etc.) looks at the SCA, and have come to the conclusion that honesty is the best policy. I can honestly say that the SCA has produced some of the finest costume scholars I know; at the same time, I cannot fib and say I know no one who's just there to party. Susan Carroll-Clark _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Lee Carter Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 21:47:52 -0800 Subject: H-COST: OT- past debate - -Poster: Lee Carter Awhile ago, there was a debate about the movie "Elizabeth" with its costumes and "Shakespeare in Love's costumes... tonight during the prelimiary Oscar festivities, the director of Elizabeth stated that the embroidery on the costumes was done in India. If you show the one gown, embroidered in gold on burgundy velvet... It looked out of place... I think that is why some of the people had problems with the costumes... my opinion... oh, Whoopie looked wonderful in the Queen Elizabeth's costume... white face paint and all..... _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: WICKHAM Raymond Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 19:46:39 +1100 Subject: H-COST: past debate - -Poster: WICKHAM Raymond Lee Carter said the director of Elizabeth stated that the embroidery on the costumes was done in India My question is why would where the embroidery was done have anything to do with how it was done If it wasn't done the way they wanted then they would have rejected it And why do they keep apologising for creating a movie that had automatic expectations and they purposely avoided them Damocles _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: WICKHAM Raymond Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 20:11:23 +1100 Subject: RE: H-COST: Reenactment, Living History, Recreation, etc. - -Poster: WICKHAM Raymond Greetings I visited the UK a while ago and encountered a variety of costuming attitudes There are people that make a living acting as guides and re-enact anachronistic and period pieces in historic locations The people also vary there acceptance of authentic costume from even machine buttonholes are not allowed in public to much lesser degrees of costume People that are reconstructing something specific generally find a source of information and reluctantly challenge it A large amount of historical re-enactment groups also seem to be combat orientated so don't always delve into the varieties of clothing of that period Some of the organisations such as Regia Angelorum reconstruct Saxon historical costume in England between such and such a date and have sources that they basically accept as fact This is either good or bad >From my point of view the SCA started as something less than a full fledged historical re-enactment group The most positive thing it does is encourage those that try And accepts those that wish to try harder But doesn't alienate those that just want to do a basic attempt Damocles Truhart _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Hope H. Dunlap" Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 19:59:25 -0500 Subject: RE: H-COST: 1890s Cutting Guide for Ladies' Garments - -Poster: "Hope H. Dunlap" I would just love to have a copy or see it up on line... either. If you decide not to put it on line, please let me know what it mght cost to copy, that is if it isn't too fragile. Hope H. Dunlap - -----Original Message----- From: owner-h-costume@indra.com [mailto:owner-h-costume@indra.com]On Behalf Of Margretta de Vries Sent: Sunday, March 21, 1999 3:40 PM To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: H-COST: 1890s Cutting Guide for Ladies' Garments - -Poster: Margretta de Vries Several weeks ago, I received in the mail a most amazing brthday present! It is an Edition 1890 "Instruction Book with Diagrams of S.T. Taylor's Guide to Cutting Ladies Garments". I've perused it several times, and will have to take steps to preserve it before further use, but had a sudden thought: would anyone be interested in seeing this guide online? I will have to check the copyright on it, but I think that will not be a problem. I'm sure it will be a time-consuming project, but I'd love to share my new wealth of information with anyone who is interested... :) If you have tips, please let me know; you could also send them to me privately, if you wish... Margretta == Margretta de Vries _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ____________________________________________________________ _____ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Margo Anderson Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 07:19:05 -0800 (PST) Subject: H-COST: Oscar dresses - -Poster: Margo Anderson So what did everyone think of the Oscar gowns? I thought most of them were lovely, especially Lyn Redgrave's lavender bustle backed gown. Unfortunately the current trend to elegance means that the Academy Awards show isn't as much fun as it used to be, I didn't spot any true howlers. The worst, IMHO, was Ann Heche's overgrown undershirt. Although Uma Thurman gets an honorable mention for the bouffant skirt with the weird tuck at crotch level, which looked for all the world as if she'd gotten it caught in her panties. Margo _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Linda Lassman" Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 09:43:04 CST Subject: Re: H-COST: Oscar dresses - -Poster: "Linda Lassman" > > -Poster: Margo Anderson > > So what did everyone think of the Oscar gowns? (snip) > Although Uma > Thurman gets an honorable mention for the bouffant skirt with the weird > tuck at crotch level, which looked for all the world as if she'd gotten it > caught in her panties. > > Margo > I don't know--did you not see the shot of her from the side? It looked like she had some bizarre satin bag attached to her back as well--we were speculating on what she could keep in it (babies, lunch). Maybe it was actually a gigantic bow of some sort? I agree about Anne Heche's dress--it certainly looked like it was made from grey sweatshirt fabric and the cut was like one of those men's tank tops with armholes almost to the waist! We thought Celine Dion's dress looked like the neck facings were badly cut and had all been turned out. Mariah Carey's dress wasn't awful, but it fit really, really badly. We didn't care for the colour combinations of Andi McDowell's dress, but it wasn't bad. Helen Hunt's dress was uninspired. Sandy Powell's dress was really interesting, particularly the jacket collar and neckline, but I'm not sure how much I liked the back of the skirt. It was wonderful to watch the Oscars with a bunch of friends who are also more interested in what people were wearing than in the awards; too bad there weren't more dreadful dresses to comment on! - - Linda Lassman Winnipeg, Manitoba _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Mara Riley Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 10:46:50 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: H-COST: OT- past debate - -Poster: Mara Riley Well, since I didn't watch the Oscars, I missed Whoopie done up in Elizabethan. Anyone know if there's a picture of that on the web? Sounds like something I just -have- to see! Mara On Sun, 21 Mar 1999, Lee Carter wrote: > > -Poster: Lee Carter > > Awhile ago, there was a debate about the movie "Elizabeth" with its > costumes and "Shakespeare in Love's costumes... tonight during the > prelimiary Oscar festivities, the director of Elizabeth stated that the > embroidery on the costumes was done in India. If you show the one gown, > embroidered in gold on burgundy velvet... It looked out of place... I > think that is why some of the people had problems with the costumes... > > my opinion... oh, Whoopie looked wonderful in the Queen Elizabeth's > costume... white face paint and all..... > > _________________________________________________________________ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME > _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Kat & Kent Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 09:58:43 -0600 Subject: Re: H-COST: Reenactment, Living History, Recreation, etc. - -Poster: Kat & Kent After 22 hours of labor...and *during* a contraction I described the SCA thusly, "oh! the SCA is a non-profit, educational recreation society devoted to learning about the middle ages through recreating various parts of them. Any art or science that was done in the middle ages can be found to be done by someone in the SCA". I blew away the two doctors (this was a high risk pregnancy) and the two neonatal nurses standing by while my husband and my doula (who was also chatelaine of our household) rolled their eyes. OTOH it gave me the break I needed to be able to push my daughter out in the next few contractions rather than having the c-section the more experienced doctor was about to call for (my bp was 150/200). Kat _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Leslie Helms Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 08:12:56 -0800 Subject: H-COST: Thanks Penny! / Wool/silk weave ? - -Poster: Leslie Helms Penny's new online article on 1893/4 fashion is very tasty even if that's not your period! Take a look-- http://www.costumegallery.com/LHJ/Sept_1893/Color/p18color.htm Thank you, Penny... now I'm dreaming of someone in 1593 writing about the Paris trends and their expression in Wales... a fun project for sometime. One sentence confuses me. Can you clarify the weave being described here? "Other goods only show a glimmer of a second color when in movement. Silk and wool dress goods show lines and dots on the plain warp of silk, which gives the material a sheen and lightness of weight that only appears with the admixture of silk. " Does this mean that the lines and dots are of a silk warp uncrossed by the wool weft, or that the warp is wool and the silk weft is carried over it to form the lines and dots? (Or would the fibers have been blended within at least some of the yarns?) And I'm delighted to see this casual mention of 44" fabric: "Four and a half yards of velveteen, four and a half yards of forty-four-inch [wool] goods and a yard of silk are thus used." Considering that the velvet/een would be narrow and that these were fairly large dresses, this is a testament to the efficiency of cutting that was apparently the standard. Modern patterns can use up this much to make a slim suit! Leslie "Being posted to Ireland for a while makes you aware of why it is important to be fit." --a charming young machine-gunner from the Welsh Guard, in conversation after a military band concert here in Olympia, Washington yesterday. They have the most wonderful uniforms, with woven trim displaying distorted fleur-de-lys all over in contempt of the French, and lovely woven leek epaulets! _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Sylvia Rognstad Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 09:07:56 -0700 (MST) Subject: Re: H-COST: Oscar dresses - -Poster: Sylvia Rognstad > > > > So what did everyone think of the Oscar gowns? Whose idea was it that grey is a good color for any one but old ladies? My mother used to wear it a lot after her hair turned grey, and she looked good in it then. And what is it with the hair sleeked back into a little bun? Was everyone trying to look like the stereotypical old maid librarian? A most unattractive look. And Helen Hunt still needs to find a good hairdresser. Can anyone say bangs? Meow, Sylvia _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "StitchWitch" Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 08:23:53 PST Subject: Re: H-COST: 1890s Cutting Guide for Ladies' Garments - -Poster: "StitchWitch" > Several weeks ago, I received in the mail a most amazing brthday > present! It is an Edition 1890 "Instruction Book with Diagrams of > S.T. Taylor's Guide to Cutting Ladies Garments". > > I've perused it several times, and will have to take steps to preserve > it before further use, but had a sudden thought: would anyone be > interested in seeing this guide online? I will have to check the > copyright on it, but I think that will not be a problem. Yeth! Yeth! Yeth! . . . Whoops, sorry, the very thought of this delightful tome made me drool . . . *AHEM* . . . YES!!!! > I'm sure it will be a time-consuming project, but I'd love to share my > new wealth of information with anyone who is interested... :) What increadible generousity! Bless you! > If you have tips, please let me know; you could also send them to me > privately, if you wish... I've not done such things, but if you check out the websites of those who have, you might be able to contact the creators of the ones you like for tips. Kate - ---- StitchWitch All things are possible until they are proved impossible - and even the impossible may only be so, as of now. - Pearl S. Buck _______________________________________________________ Get your free, private email at http://mail.excite.com/ _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ End of h-costume-digest V4 #225 ******************************* _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME-DIGEST From ???@??? Mon Mar 22 19:15:33 1999 Received: from mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE (mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE [130.149.4.16]) by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA01705 for ; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 19:11:06 +0100 (MET) Received: from mail.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.15]) by mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10P9AD-0006tQ-00; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 19:11:01 +0100 Received: from coal.bg.tu-berlin.de by mail.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Mon, 22 Mar 1999 19:10:49 +0100 Received: from mail.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.15]) by mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10P99x-0006t1-00; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 19:10:46 +0100 Received: from tubkom.prz.tu-berlin.de by mail.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Mon, 22 Mar 1999 19:10:33 +0100 Received: from mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE (mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE [130.149.4.16]) by tubkom.prz.tu-berlin.de (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA07968 for ; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 19:09:00 +0100 (MEZ) Received: from mail.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.15]) by mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10P99i-0006s5-00; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 19:10:30 +0100 Received: from server.indra.com by mail.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Mon, 22 Mar 1999 19:10:05 +0100 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.8.5/) with ESMTP id MAA24575; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 12:04:07 -0700 (MST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id LAA27116 for h-costume-digest-outgoing; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 11:08:34 -0700 (MST) Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 11:08:34 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199903221808.LAA27116@indra.com> From: owner-h-costume-digest@indra.com To: h-costume-digest@indra.com Subject: h-costume-digest V4 #226 Reply-To: h-costume-digest@indra.com Errors-To: owner-h-costume-digest@indra.com Precedence: bulk h-costume-digest Monday, 22 March 1999 Volume 04 : Number 226 In this issue: Re: H-COST: Oscar dresses Re: H-COST: Oscar dresses Re: H-COST: Oscar dresses Re: H-COST: oscars-Whoopie Re: H-COST: Oscar dresses RE: H-COST: looking for a pattern Re: H-COST: Oscar dresses Re: H-COST: Oscar dresses Re: H-COST: oscars-Whoopie H-COST: costume oscars Re: H-COST: Oscar dresses Re: H-COST: Oscar dresses RE: H-COST: costume oscars Re: H-COST: Oscar dresses Re: H-COST: Oscar dresses Re: H-COST: Oscar dresses Re: H-COST: Reenactment, Living History, Recreation, etc. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Kat & Kent Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 10:31:55 -0600 Subject: Re: H-COST: Oscar dresses - -Poster: Kat & Kent Sylvia Rognstad wrote: > > And what is it with the hair sleeked back into a little bun? Was > everyone trying to look like the stereotypical old maid librarian? A > most unattractive look. That was my question last night...grrrrr...ruined some very nice gowns otherwise. I must say that the one Geena Davis was wearing for the preshow was stunning...I really liked it. Some of the others were good and Whoopie was *fantastic* in the Elizabethan! She was hysterical! Her other costumes looked good too, except for that silver 'thang' she was wearing with the blue hair. I particularly enjoyed the black with feathers that she did the bird imitation in. Some of the outfits that bothered us were the men's tuxes. The ones with the very, very short, medium width lapels. I don't mind the lines of that style when worn with a collarless shirt and a stud but with a bow-tie?! Other than Whoopie I have to say my favorite part was watching Roberto (not attempting his last name!) bounce all over! (and I mean *all* over!!). > And Helen Hunt still needs to find a good hairdresser. Can anyone say > bangs? I think she looked so much better last year! But then there were very few *good* hairstyles last night. Blech! Kat _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Franchesca Havas" Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 10:32:36 -0600 Subject: Re: H-COST: Oscar dresses - -Poster: "Franchesca Havas" Helen Hunt USED to have bangs. They do not look good on her. I have seen a few things that she has done on TV and on the big screen over the years and seen her hair go through many changes. Bangs are not for her I loved the simple lines and clean look that was everywhere. Not a favorite from what I am reading here. I liked esp. the dress that Gina D. wore for the PRE-Oscar show, very nice bustle interpretation. But my favorite had to be Her Majesty Queen Whoopi! As always, I hated the modern approach to dance designed by what's-her-name. I like what we called modern dance 10 years ago, not this mix of body parts pretending to do art. But then that is what you get when all you have is 3 months to prep! Sincerely, F. Havas _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Marsha J. Hamilton" Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 11:39:53 -0500 Subject: Re: H-COST: Oscar dresses - -Poster: "Marsha J. Hamilton" OK. Enough of that. I'm a librarian and I resent the old maid stereotype. I assume you said that with a smile, pardner :-> I loved the neck, sleeves and color of Sandy Powell's outfit but the skirt looked like a draped tablecloth. Jennifer Lopez's (I think) black gown with the three horizontal bands of jeweled white was very nice. (Something this librarian would LOVE to wear.) Whoopi's raven feathers were wonderful! As was the black velvet sheath with the overlay stole pinned at the neckline. Gotta love her. Marsha - ---------- >And what is it with the hair sleeked back into a little bun? Was everyone >trying to look like the stereotypical old maid librarian? A most >unattractive look. _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Janice Dallas Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 11:40:38 -0500 Subject: Re: H-COST: oscars-Whoopie - -Poster: Janice Dallas Mara, The Boston Globe had a picture of Whoopie as the "African Queen" in today's edition. Go to Http://www.boston.com/news/packages/oscars. It's a very funny picture. Janice Dallas _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Emma Elizabeth Lehman <00217146@bigred.unl.edu> Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 10:47:35 -0600 (CST) Subject: Re: H-COST: Oscar dresses - -Poster: Emma Elizabeth Lehman <00217146@bigred.unl.edu> I don't suppose there is any place online to see these dresses, is there? I spent last night away from any (working...) televisions, and missed the fun. _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Hope H. Dunlap" Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 09:50:31 -0500 Subject: RE: H-COST: looking for a pattern - -Poster: "Hope H. Dunlap" Susan, Have you tried Pattern Service at Vogue itself? They don't have everything, but here's the info: Butterick and Vogue Pattern Company: Vogue Pattern Service PO Box 1914 Dept D Altoona, PA 16603 BillG@Butterick.com or 1-800-766-2670. Hope H. Dunlap - -----Original Message----- From: owner-h-costume@indra.com [mailto:owner-h-costume@indra.com]On Behalf Of Susan Fatemi Sent: Saturday, March 20, 1999 6:03 PM To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: H-COST: looking for a pattern - -Poster: Susan Fatemi Sorry for any duplication, but I'm sending this to all my lists. This isn't very historical, but I know a lot of you have been sewing and collecting patterns for a long time and hope that somebody can help. I'm desperately searching for Vogue pattern 9080. It may be as old as 1985. It's a blouse with an asymmetrical "bib." If anyone has a copy and is willing to sell or lend it, I'd be very grateful. Susan Fatemi - -- Oh Noh! Kimonos! susanf@netwiz.net http://www.netwiz.net/~susanf ____________________________________________________________ _____ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Sylvia Rognstad Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 09:45:38 -0700 (MST) Subject: Re: H-COST: Oscar dresses - -Poster: Sylvia Rognstad > > -Poster: "Franchesca Havas" > > Helen Hunt USED to have bangs. They do not look good on her. I have seen a > few things that she has done on TV and on the big screen over the years and > seen her hair go through many changes. Bangs are not for her > Well, she ought to find a way to disguise that high forehead a bit. I didn't like her hair last year at the Oscars either. She always wears it too severely for her face, IMHO. And get rid of all that black eye makeup too. It made her already small eyes look even smaller. Why do hair and makeup designers feel compelled to make everyone look like what is "in style" for the season instead of trying to make them look as attractive as possible given what they have? Most actresses aren't built like supermodels, on whose faces and heads you can do just about anything and they'll look great. Sylvia R Divinity Designs http://www.d-e-designs.com/divinity/ 515 Manhattan Drive, #203 sylvia@netherworld.com Boulder, CO 80303 USA complete catalog on website _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Margo Anderson Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 08:20:05 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: H-COST: Oscar dresses - -Poster: Margo Anderson >And Helen Hunt still needs to find a good hairdresser. Her hair doesn't bother me as much as her squint. She should get glasses or contacts. Of course, last night she seemed to have decided that if only she wore enough black mascara, no one would notice. MEEEOWW! Margo _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Marie Schulte Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 11:15:11 -0600 (CST) Subject: Re: H-COST: oscars-Whoopie - -Poster: Marie Schulte Actually, I found her EII-like delivery to be far more amusing than the costume (which was funny, but...) - -Marie _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Andrea Clef Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 16:15:08 +0100 Subject: H-COST: costume oscars - -Poster: Andrea Clef Hello out there! Can anybody help me and tell me which films got the costume Oscars in 1996 and 1997 ? I`ve got a book about costume in the movies which lists all films that ever received an Oscar for costume but it stops in 1995. In 1998 the Oscar went to Titanic, so I`d like to know about the two previous years. Maybe someone remembers them, thanks! Diana _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Marie Schulte Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 11:25:07 -0600 (CST) Subject: Re: H-COST: Oscar dresses - -Poster: Marie Schulte Sandy Powell's outfit was YUMMY! The collar was great...if there was only a pattern and so was the colour/fabric. WOW! The gather/bustle...enh neither here nor there. I don't hink it went particularly well with the skirt length, which I liked, too. Gina Davis' presenting gown must have either come from Cher's thrift store bag or, Cher's old designer is still around. The pre-show one was lovely. In fact, I though G. Paltrow's to be an overly bubble-gum version of it. Granted everyone's remarks on H.Hunt's lack of hair style, but I thought her gown was the worse tragedy of the two. It lacked style, fit, so-so, and *all* that glittery trim made odd and distracting glares on her face....that may also have been why she was squinting. Kathy Bates does not belong in grey! And who was that sitting next to Nick Nolte, in a grey suit with large beaded/gemmed cuffs? Anyhow...I didn't get to be catty with anyone last night, and I won't subject you all to more..it is nice to 'hear' some other comments from the informed...well , you know what I mean! - -Marie _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Emma Elizabeth Lehman <00217146@bigred.unl.edu> Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 11:32:27 -0600 (CST) Subject: Re: H-COST: Oscar dresses - -Poster: Emma Elizabeth Lehman <00217146@bigred.unl.edu> Well, I found one myself, almost. Unfortunately, the photographer was going for faces, so there isn't nearly as much dress visable as I'd like in most cases. http://oscar.com/fashion/fashion_index.html > -Poster: Emma Elizabeth Lehman <00217146@bigred.unl.edu> > > I don't suppose there is any place online to see these dresses, is there? > I spent last night away from any (working...) televisions, and missed the > fun. _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Deborah von Seggern" Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 09:35:07 -0800 Subject: RE: H-COST: costume oscars - -Poster: "Deborah von Seggern" Restoration got it at the 68th annual awards. The English Patient got the award at the 69th awards. Go here to look up almost anything about the Oscars: http://oscars.guide.com/history/past/ Deb in Redmond, WA > -----Original Message----- > Hello out there! > > Can anybody help me and tell me which films got the costume Oscars in > 1996 and > 1997 ? > I`ve got a book about costume in the movies which lists all films that > ever received an > Oscar for costume but it stops in 1995. > > In 1998 the Oscar went to Titanic, so I`d like to know about the two > previous years. > Maybe someone remembers them, thanks! > > Diana > > _________________________________________________________________ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME > _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: AlbertCat@aol.com Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 12:41:59 EST Subject: Re: H-COST: Oscar dresses - -Poster: AlbertCat@aol.com In a message dated 3/22/99 10:41:06 AM Eastern Standard Time, lassman@Ms.UManitoba.CA writes: << Sandy Powell's dress was really interesting, particularly the jacket collar and neckline, but I'm not sure how much I liked the back of the skirt. >> Very Charles James. And her hair wasn't that color when I worked for her! I'm glad she won....she's gooooooood. _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: AlbertCat@aol.com Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 12:51:20 EST Subject: Re: H-COST: Oscar dresses - -Poster: AlbertCat@aol.com In a message dated 3/22/99 11:37:46 AM Eastern Standard Time, ches@io.com writes: << But then that is what you get when all you have is 3 months to prep! >> They had 3 MONTHS????!!! And this is all they could come up with???? Of course it's hard to keep a straight face while tap dancing an interpretation of the soundtrack to "Saving Private Ryan." DUMB! _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: AlbertCat@aol.com Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 13:05:13 EST Subject: Re: H-COST: Oscar dresses - -Poster: AlbertCat@aol.com In a message dated 3/22/99 12:34:14 PM Eastern Standard Time, mschulte@post.its.mcw.edu writes: << Cher's old designer is still around. >> Bob Mackie? _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Henk 't Jong" Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 18:49:36 +0100 Subject: Re: H-COST: Reenactment, Living History, Recreation, etc. - -Poster: "Henk 't Jong" Henk & Pauline 't Jong tScapreel Medieval Advisors Dordrecht, Netherlands Hi, Robin wrote: > I have heard some people describe what the SCA does as "re-creation," > which is one way to explain the difference between a reenactment of a > scripted scenario compared with the open-ended activity of the SCA. (No > one knows in advance who's going to win an SCA battle.) > I wouldn't call an SCA battle a 're-creation' of (any) pre 17th c battle. > And people earn their rank in > the SCA by their achievements and activities; rank isn't determined by > their personas. > Which isn't very 're-creating' either... Bye, Henk _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ End of h-costume-digest V4 #226 ******************************* _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME-DIGEST From ???@??? Tue Mar 23 11:29:03 1999 Received: from mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE (mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE [130.149.4.16]) by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA02775 for ; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 23:18:11 +0100 (MET) Received: from mail.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.15]) by mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10PD1O-0005UN-00; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 23:18:10 +0100 Received: from coal.bg.tu-berlin.de by mail.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Mon, 22 Mar 1999 23:17:57 +0100 Received: from mail.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.15]) by mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10PD18-0005Tl-00; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 23:17:54 +0100 Received: from tubkom.prz.tu-berlin.de by mail.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Mon, 22 Mar 1999 23:17:42 +0100 Received: from mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE (mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE [130.149.4.16]) by tubkom.prz.tu-berlin.de (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA09121 for ; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 23:16:09 +0100 (MEZ) Received: from mail.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.15]) by mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10PD0t-0005TU-00; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 23:17:39 +0100 Received: from server.indra.com by mail.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Mon, 22 Mar 1999 23:15:19 +0100 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.8.5/) with ESMTP id QAA14823; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 16:09:39 -0700 (MST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id PAA02135 for h-costume-digest-outgoing; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 15:13:37 -0700 (MST) Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 15:13:37 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199903222213.PAA02135@indra.com> From: owner-h-costume-digest@indra.com To: h-costume-digest@indra.com Subject: h-costume-digest V4 #227 Reply-To: h-costume-digest@indra.com Errors-To: owner-h-costume-digest@indra.com Precedence: bulk h-costume-digest Monday, 22 March 1999 Volume 04 : Number 227 In this issue: Re: H-COST: costume oscars Re: H-COST: Oscar dresses H-COST: Whoopie Oscar Theory Re: H-COST: oscars Re: H-COST: Oscar dresses Re: H-COST: Oscar dresses Re: H-COST: Oscar dresses Re: H-COST: Oscar dresses H-COST: Some books on natural & period dyeing Re: H-COST: Oscar dresses Re: H-COST: 1890s Cutting Guide for Ladies' Garments H-COST: The costumed Whoopie Re: H-COST: Oscar dresses Re: H-COST: Corsets and Stays on the Frontier Re: H-COST: The costumed Whoopie H-COST: Way too early in the morning....... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: MzScahlett@aol.com Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 13:38:21 EST Subject: Re: H-COST: costume oscars - -Poster: MzScahlett@aol.com In a message dated 3/22/1999 09:22:53 Pacific Standard Time, a.clef@ndh.net writes: << In 1998 the Oscar went to Titanic, so I`d like to know about the two previous years. Maybe someone remembers them, thanks! Diana >> just go to the Oscar website. It's a searchable database and will give you the winners of all the oscars from the beginning of time. The site address is: http://www.oscar.com/history/pw/pw_index.html The costume winners are 1996 69th Academy Awards THE ENGLISH PATIENT - Ann Roth 1995 68th Academy Awards RESTORATION - James Acheson _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: MzScahlett@aol.com Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 13:48:16 EST Subject: Re: H-COST: Oscar dresses - -Poster: MzScahlett@aol.com In a message dated 3/22/1999 09:30:54 Pacific Standard Time, 00217146@bigred.unl.edu writes: << Well, I found one myself, almost. Unfortunately, the photographer was going for faces, so there isn't nearly as much dress visable as I'd like in most cases. >> Are you for or "against" the Galliano? I love the extremes he goes to with dresses, and think a young woman like Cate Blanchett could have pulled it off perfectly. I think her hair is a little too "informal" and her makeup not very good for her, but the dress is lovely. It has a lace back inset that is floral and looks almost like her back has a flower garden "tattoo" -- although she wasn't as becoming as she might have been, I think the dress is great! angil + + + + + + + Angela F. Lazear Costumes & Custom Clothing "Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds" A. Einstein _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: PiranhaBB@aol.com Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 13:42:17 EST Subject: H-COST: Whoopie Oscar Theory - -Poster: PiranhaBB@aol.com My theory on Whoopie's Oscar dresses is that she was wearing a black velvet sheath that had goodies applied to it; kind of a mix and match idea. The black feather shoulder thingy, the gold cape/cloak-y looking thing.... Any other guesses? Lisa in LA _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Orlaith Date: 22 Mar 99 11:54:38 MST Subject: Re: H-COST: oscars - -Poster: Orlaith > = > I don't suppose there is any place online to see these dresses, is ther= e? > I spent last night away from any (working...) televisions, and missed t= he > fun. = Try = http://www.usatoday.com/life/enter/movies/oscar99/opa/index.htm (USA Toda= y) and http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/style/movies/oscars/gallery/99/galle= ry1.htm (Washington Post) The post has Whoopi as Elizabeth Orliath "Republicans understand the importance of bondage between a mother and child." * Vice President Dan Quayle ____________________________________________________________________ Get free e-mail and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=3D= 1 _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: MzScahlett@aol.com Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 13:32:54 EST Subject: Re: H-COST: Oscar dresses - -Poster: MzScahlett@aol.com In a message dated 3/22/1999 08:19:37 Pacific Standard Time, sylvia@netherworld.com writes: << And what is it with the hair sleeked back into a little bun? Was everyone trying to look like the stereotypical old maid librarian? A most unattractive look. >> Amen. Gwyneth Paltrow's hair didn't fit her much better than her dress. For all the money she must have paid, she couldn't have a seamstress adjust her bust so that it wasn't a size too big? << And Helen Hunt still needs to find a good hairdresser. Can anyone say bangs? >> Bangs! She has a high forehead and I've heard her talk about how she hates it, so ? Helen, that's what bangs are for! Also, my favorite dress was Catherine Zeta-Jones (Zorro) in red (although I don't like sleeveless much) the color was extraordinary and her hair had this wonderful jewelry in it down the back. She reeked of true glamor. For worst dressed, it was a tie between Celine Dion in the gangster suit *ugh* and Renee Zelweiger in the purple tablecloth thing, it was badly cut and did nothing for her. But all in all, they were minor irritations in what was mostly a fairly tasteful night for dress. angil + + + + + + + Angela F. Lazear Costumes & Custom Clothing "Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds" A. Einstein _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Susan Carroll-Clark" Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 14:28:56 -0500 Subject: Re: H-COST: Oscar dresses - -Poster: "Susan Carroll-Clark" Greetings! >Her hair doesn't bother me as much as her squint. She should get glasses or >contacts. Of course, last night she seemed to have decided that if only she >wore enough black mascara, no one would notice. MEEEOWW! Pass the six-pack of mice, please. I thought she was wearing false eyelashes! I did like Gwyneth Paltrow's dress--simple, elegant (if only it weren't pink--but that's my own colour preference showing). I also liked the three Whoopi dresses I saw after tuning in (the bird dress and the two after--NOT the silver thing!) Susan _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Sylvia Rognstad Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 12:24:11 -0700 (MST) Subject: Re: H-COST: Oscar dresses - -Poster: Sylvia Rognstad The best looking broad there and also the best dressed was Sophia Loren, and she's old enough to be a lot of those actresses' grandmothers! Sylvia Divinity Designs http://www.d-e-designs.com/divinity/ 515 Manhattan Drive, #203 sylvia@netherworld.com Boulder, CO 80303 USA complete catalog on website _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Marsha J. Hamilton" Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 14:50:18 -0500 Subject: Re: H-COST: Oscar dresses - -Poster: "Marsha J. Hamilton" >The best looking broad there and also the best dressed was Sophia Loren, >and she's old enough to be a lot of those actresses' grandmothers! - ----------------- Amen! Unlike some of the other gowns that wore the person, Sophia's beauty was enhanced by the gown which did not overshadow her. Que bella. MH _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Melanie Wilson Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 15:13:10 -0500 Subject: H-COST: Some books on natural & period dyeing - -Poster: Melanie Wilson I found some English small press publications that might be of interest t= o you folks, contact me direct if you want to buy any of them. Mel All prices are British pounds approx 1 pound =3D 1.6 US dollars, plus postage. They are A5 slim volumes.at 2.50 pounds each. Dyer in the Garden-how to grow common dye plants & dye with them The begineer Spinner- Basic fleece knowledge The Medieval Dyepot-history of traditional British dyes The spinners Rhymerie- somgs and poems about spinning , weaving and shepherding Knitting handspun yarns- how to calculate the right amount for a garment = , plus basic patterns. Everything in the kitchen sink-dyeing with kitchen waste The insatiable spinner- spinning with the likes of llama, alpaca, angora,= dogs, cats etc The dyers palette- how to get the whole spectrum from natural dyes A Shepherd's miscellany-, crafts rhymes, stories & traditions on Shepards= & sherherding A Calender of common dye plants, -Nettle, dock,etc plants for dyes from Britain The foreroom rug- heirloom hooked rugs _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: M311@aol.com Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 15:35:40 EST Subject: Re: H-COST: Oscar dresses - -Poster: M311@aol.com In a message dated 3/22/99 10:17:37 AM Central Standard Time, sylvia@netherworld.com writes: << And Helen Hunt still needs to find a good hairdresser. Can anyone say bangs? >> I happen to love Helens hair. Not everyone wears bangs. Now the dress back was terrible. Not what I would wear at all. I didn't like very many of the dresses though. Most were to low cut, or had twists or the wrinkle look to them. The ones I didn't like the much were: Uma Thurman, Helen Hunt, Celine Dion (the hat and back), Rachel Griffiths (to bright and low cut), Anne Heche, Ellen Degeneres I liked Jennifer Lopez, Goldie Hawn, Mariah Carey, Meryl Streep (needed a necklace though), Shakir Kapur and his wife Suditra, <>> I thought that the hair looked oily on some of these people. What is with the real short hair? Some of these are so short they look like a guys cut. I like the nice flowing hair, curls and pearls but not a guys cut on a woman. I thought that this was a hoot. Whoopi kept the kids and myself laughing. http://www.boston.com/news/packages/oscars/ Kelly Albrecht m311@aol.com _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Merlyncc@aol.com Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 15:44:17 EST Subject: Re: H-COST: 1890s Cutting Guide for Ladies' Garments - -Poster: Merlyncc@aol.com I'd love to see the 1890's Cutting Guide on line! Priscilla Schmitz _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Carole Frick Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 15:08:54 -0600 Subject: H-COST: The costumed Whoopie - -Poster: Carole Frick Dear List, Am I the only one who didn't like costuming Whoopie with all the nominated designs? If I were one of those nominated designers and someone came on stage in "my" design (however it may have been altered.....we all knew "whose" film it referred to).....and everyone in the audience LAUGHED LONG AND LOUD AT THE ABSURDITY OF THE OUTFIT.....I mean, what was the point? Are we all so starved for humor that we need to laugh at costumes now....or the many stooooooooooooopid sex jokes she made. I'm sorry, but I found the whole thing lame this year, and I have been an Oscar Night fan for thirty years. Carole Collier Frick Department of Historical Studies Southern Illinois University _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Christine Krebs-Bonder <2maples@dnaco.net> Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 16:10:26 -0500 Subject: Re: H-COST: Oscar dresses - -Poster: Christine Krebs-Bonder <2maples@dnaco.net> The dress that I truly loved was the purple gown with the flowered sleeves worn by the lady who won the Oscar for the best short documentary. I love purple anyway, but most women who wear it don't have the complexion to carry it off. And I agree Catherine Zeta-Jones red gown was glam. I liked the outfit Dame Judi Dench chose to wear. It suited her perfectly, being elegantly understated wothout being dowdy. And I have to give Whoopi credit for having the guts to where that god-awful silver outfit among the other nominees for best costume. Christine in Dayton M311@aol.com wrote: > -Poster: M311@aol.com > > In a message dated 3/22/99 10:17:37 AM Central Standard Time, > sylvia@netherworld.com writes: > > << > And Helen Hunt still needs to find a good hairdresser. Can anyone say > bangs? > >> > I happen to love Helens hair. Not everyone wears bangs. Now the dress back > was terrible. Not what I would wear at all. > I didn't like very many of the dresses though. Most were to low cut, or had > twists or the wrinkle look to them. > The ones I didn't like the much were: Uma Thurman, Helen Hunt, Celine Dion > (the hat and back), Rachel Griffiths (to bright and low cut), Anne Heche, > Ellen Degeneres > > I liked Jennifer Lopez, Goldie Hawn, Mariah Carey, Meryl Streep (needed a > necklace though), Shakir Kapur and his wife Suditra, > > <>> > I thought that the hair looked oily on some of these people. What is with the > real short hair? Some of these are so short they look like a guys cut. I > like the nice flowing hair, curls and pearls but not a guys cut on a woman. > > I thought that this was a hoot. Whoopi kept the kids and myself laughing. > http://www.boston.com/news/packages/oscars/ > > Kelly Albrecht > m311@aol.com > _________________________________________________________________ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Susan Krakower" Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 15:19:53 -0600 Subject: Re: H-COST: Corsets and Stays on the Frontier - -Poster: "Susan Krakower" I also wear stays all the time when doing 18th century reenacting. I wear them not just for the back support, but because I'm full breasted, and they are a wonderful means of support. And yes I do the cooking around the camp fire, as well as dragging heavy water buckets, and everything else. They do get hot and sweaty in the summer's heat, but that's not going to change by not wearing them. Everyone is hot and sweaty then. ;-) Susan K. 42nd RHR, 17th L. D. _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: MzScahlett@aol.com Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 17:10:03 EST Subject: Re: H-COST: The costumed Whoopie - -Poster: MzScahlett@aol.com In a message dated 3/22/1999 13:05:43 Pacific Standard Time, cfrick@siue.edu writes: << Am I the only one who didn't like costuming Whoopie with all the nominated designs? If I were one of those nominated designers and someone came on stage in "my" design (however it may have been altered.....we all knew "whose" film it referred to).....and everyone in the audience LAUGHED LONG AND LOUD AT THE ABSURDITY OF THE OUTFIT.. >> No. As a costumer, I HATED that that was the entire presentation of those beautiful clothes, labored over by so many and designed by some brilliant designers. I did not mind that she dressed up really, just that that constituted the "costume" presentation. That really bugged. _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: seamstrix@juno.com Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 15:47:51 -0600 Subject: H-COST: Way too early in the morning....... - -Poster: seamstrix@juno.com If any of you guys are in the Chicago area or if you get WGN from Chicago on your cable service, I'll be doing a short segment on the morning program to promote a Renaissance Day that the Guild of St. George from the Bristol Renaissance Faire will be doing at the Downer's Grove Historical Society next month. I'll be on for about a minute or so in costume and in persona if they decide they want me to be. The draw back is that I don't know what time I'll be on, anywhere between 7&9am CST. For me, a second drawback is that since I have to be ready to go by 7am, and it takes me over an hour to get to the Historical Society, and it takes me about half an hour to get into the darn outfit, I'm waking up waaaaay too mucking early tomorrow. So, please, make it worth my while, try to tune in if you can! Karen _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ End of h-costume-digest V4 #227 ******************************* _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME-DIGEST From ???@??? Tue Mar 23 11:29:04 1999 Received: from mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE (mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE [130.149.4.16]) by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA03219 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 01:55:14 +0100 (MET) Received: from mail.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.15]) by mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10PFTN-00016M-00; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 01:55:13 +0100 Received: from coal.bg.tu-berlin.de by mail.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Tue, 23 Mar 1999 01:54:59 +0100 Received: from mail.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.15]) by mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10PFT5-00016B-00; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 01:54:55 +0100 Received: from tubkom.prz.tu-berlin.de by mail.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Tue, 23 Mar 1999 01:54:43 +0100 Received: from mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE (mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE [130.149.4.16]) by tubkom.prz.tu-berlin.de (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA09933 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 01:53:10 +0100 (MEZ) Received: from mail.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.15]) by mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10PFSp-000167-00; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 01:54:39 +0100 Received: from server.indra.com by mail.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Tue, 23 Mar 1999 01:54:16 +0100 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.8.5/) with ESMTP id SAA14457; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 18:49:04 -0700 (MST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id RAA07897 for h-costume-digest-outgoing; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 17:52:41 -0700 (MST) Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 17:52:41 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199903230052.RAA07897@indra.com> From: owner-h-costume-digest@indra.com To: h-costume-digest@indra.com Subject: h-costume-digest V4 #228 Reply-To: h-costume-digest@indra.com Errors-To: owner-h-costume-digest@indra.com Precedence: bulk h-costume-digest Monday, 22 March 1999 Volume 04 : Number 228 In this issue: RE: H-COST: The costumed Whoopie H-COST: oscar dresses Re: H-COST: The costumed Whoopie H-COST: 1890s Cutting Guide Re: H-COST: Oscar dresses Re: H-COST: Oscar dresses Re: H-COST: OT- past debate H-COST: Nightgown Help Re: H-COST: Reenactment, Living History, Recreation, etc. Re: H-COST: The costumed Whoopie Re: H-COST: Oscar dresses H-COST: men's links Re: H-COST: Oscar dresses H-COST: oscar picks and pans ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Hope H. Dunlap" Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 17:18:41 -0500 Subject: RE: H-COST: The costumed Whoopie - -Poster: "Hope H. Dunlap" I didn't see the Oscars, only the on-line picture of Whoopi in the Boston Globe. I doubt if anyone was laughing at the costume. Rather it was the incongruity of a black woman in a "power dress." Someone so far outside the establishment in royal garb. Stands the world on its head alright. No one would ever accuse Whoopi Goldberg of being a bastion of good taste. But frankly, there are more important things in life. I think the woman's courage is awesome. Remember Barbra Streisand as a 1920's showgirl in the Zeigfield Follies? Was she playing Fanny Brice? Well, she couldn't stand the saccharin-sweetness of the wedding number, so she stuffed a pillow in the belly of her bride costume. Somebody's got to do it . . . . Hope H. Dunlap - -----Original Message----- From: owner-h-costume@indra.com [mailto:owner-h-costume@indra.com]On Behalf Of Carole Frick Sent: Monday, March 22, 1999 4:09 PM To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: H-COST: The costumed Whoopie - -Poster: Carole Frick Dear List, Am I the only one who didn't like costuming Whoopie with all the nominated designs? If I were one of those nominated designers and someone came on stage in "my" design (however it may have been altered.....we all knew "whose" film it referred to).....and everyone in the audience LAUGHED LONG AND LOUD AT THE ABSURDITY OF THE OUTFIT.....I mean, what was the point? Are we all so starved for humor that we need to laugh at costumes now....or the many stooooooooooooopid sex jokes she made. I'm sorry, but I found the whole thing lame this year, and I have been an Oscar Night fan for thirty years. Carole Collier Frick Department of Historical Studies Southern Illinois University ____________________________________________________________ _____ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Kara Rodgers Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 17:40:04 -0500 (EST) Subject: H-COST: oscar dresses - -Poster: Kara Rodgers > - -Poster: "Marsha J. Hamilton" > > >The best looking broad there and also the best dressed was Sophia Loren, > >and she's old enough to be a lot of those actresses' grandmothers! > - ----------------- > Amen! > > Unlike some of the other gowns that wore the person, Sophia's beauty was > enhanced by the gown which did not overshadow her. Que bella. > > MH A commentator on Good Morning America this morning sriticized Helen Hunt by saying that "the dress wore her, she didn't wear the dress" which I thought was an apt statement. He directed all the young actresses to take after Sophia Loren, for carriage and deportment (tho' he didn't use those terms). I only caught part of the show, but I have to disagree with many of you: I hated the black feather thing that Woopi Goldberg wore. I thought that it just looked stupid. Catherine Zeta-Jones was beautiful, but I disliked the dress Jennifer Lopex was wearing. This will sound bizarre, but the skirt of the dress Lisa Kudreau (spelling? the one from "Friends" who introduced the song from Babe) struck me. I loved the color (I actually really like grey), but could have left the rhine-stone bodice behind. I also loved the dress that the designer who won for best cotume wore. I'm so glad that this list has taken up this thread. It's great to get the opinions of people who have this much appreciation and knowledge of clothing! Kara _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Franchesca Havas" Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 16:50:19 -0600 Subject: Re: H-COST: The costumed Whoopie - -Poster: "Franchesca Havas" I must agree with Hope. When I sat there with my 3 year old on the bed together and saw the way the curtains rose ever so slowly to reveal the most beautiful play of white and gems to reveal a very beautiful and stately looking matron I could not believe it was Whoopie. I was in shock because the dress was soooooo beautiful and looked sooooo good on her. She went as far as having the Judith look on her face. It was stunning! I cheered at my TV! My daughter got so caught up in my cheering she started to cheer! I have not sat and timed the length of the cheering but it was a good full minute before the crowd settled down enough for her to start into her royal spiel. NO, I would not have felt insulted if someone like her wore a gown I created and got a standing ovation from it. I would be boasting that that was MY design up there, MINE! BUT I see your point. That silver thing.....man.....I put my daughter to bed by then, glad for it too. I cannot see anyone looking good in that. That would have embarrassed the heck out of me and nooooo way I would lay claim to that outfit. Sincerely, F. Havas - -----Original Message----- From: Hope H. Dunlap To: h-costume@indra.com Date: Monday, March 22, 1999 4:22 PM Subject: RE: H-COST: The costumed Whoopie : :-Poster: "Hope H. Dunlap" : :I didn't see the Oscars, only the on-line picture of Whoopi :in the Boston Globe. I doubt if anyone was laughing at the :costume. Rather it was the incongruity of a black woman in :a "power dress." Someone so far outside the establishment :in royal garb. Stands the world on its head alright. _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Margretta de Vries Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 14:51:54 -0800 (PST) Subject: H-COST: 1890s Cutting Guide - -Poster: Margretta de Vries I've noticed a positive response to my plans to put this Guide online, so I think I will make the attempt! It will take some time to scan all the diagrams, I think, but I will let you know the URL as I get sections done... Any ideas of where I can find enough space? The printed version is 90 pages! Regards, Margretta == Margretta de Vries _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: AnnBWass@aol.com Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 17:56:55 EST Subject: Re: H-COST: Oscar dresses - -Poster: AnnBWass@aol.com In a message dated 3/22/1999 11:34:37 AM Eastern Standard Time, kdyer@home.com writes: > of the > outfits that bothered us were the men's tuxes. The ones with the very, > very short, medium width lapels. I don't mind the lines of that style > when worn with a collarless shirt and a stud but with a bow-tie?! > Other than Whoopie I have to say my favorite part was > watching Roberto (not attempting his last name!) bounce all over! (and I > mean *all* over!!). And what is it with the guys wearing a regular soft-color shirt and a four-in- hand style tie instead of a bow tie, but with the dinner jacket and trousers? Among the stranger were Jim Carrey's black tie on black shirt. And one poor guy evidently couldn't afford any tie at all! (I guess guys have to try something different. The thankfully short-lived band collar was ubiquitous at the Oscars, and, does anyone remember that the Nehru jacket burst on the scene in the late 60s [can't remember which year, but it was the year Sammy Davis Jr. sang "Talk to the Animals"] at the Oscars. And we know how long that look lasted.) But I thought most of the women did look very elegant. But it isn't as much fun, is it? What will the Star find to picture in their special issue? Ann Wass _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: AnnBWass@aol.com Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 18:00:47 EST Subject: Re: H-COST: Oscar dresses - -Poster: AnnBWass@aol.com The supermarket tabloid, the Star, always has a special edition after the Oscars with lots of pictures of the clothes. Ann Wass _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: The Purple Elephant Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 10:05:50 +0930 (CST) Subject: Re: H-COST: OT- past debate - -Poster: The Purple Elephant On Mon, 22 Mar 1999, Mara Riley wrote: > > > > -Poster: Lee Carter > > > > Awhile ago, there was a debate about the movie "Elizabeth" with its > > costumes and "Shakespeare in Love's costumes... tonight during the > > prelimiary Oscar festivities, the director of Elizabeth stated that the > > embroidery on the costumes was done in India. If you show the one gown, > > embroidered in gold on burgundy velvet... It looked out of place... I > > think that is why some of the people had problems with the costumes... > > > > my opinion... oh, Whoopie looked wonderful in the Queen Elizabeth's > > costume... white face paint and all..... Yes, but I tell you what...someone should have taught her to walk in that dress!!!! - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Claire F. Clarke "What is this world if, full of care, Physicist, writer, We have no time to stand and stare?" and non environmentally Robert Louis Stevenson friendly substance. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Chantal Pecourt Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 18:33:18 -0500 Subject: H-COST: Nightgown Help - -Poster: Chantal Pecourt Hello all I recently bought a night gown at Victorias Secret. It is unusual in that it is VERY Regency looking. It was, of course, the only one and on sale at that so they no longer sell them. I love it and want to make more. I was wondering if anyone knew of patterns from this era that would help me make a night gown similar to this one? I have placed close up pictures of this gown at http://www.idsi.net/~chanty/gown.htm It is not a riske gown, so there are not any dirty pictures! Any help would be appreciated. I want to make lots of them, they are SO comfortable to sleep in. Does Victoria's Secret sell their patterns? thanks Chantal _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Cornelia Rutherford Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 19:34:07 -0500 Subject: Re: H-COST: Reenactment, Living History, Recreation, etc. - -Poster: Cornelia Rutherford Margo,
We do a lot of work for Renaissance Entertainment Corp. faire folk.=A0 The costume guidelines are strict but not unduly so.=A0 The garments are as much a part of the character as the person wearing them.=A0 This includes properly accessorizing each outfit according to that character's station and occupation.=A0 The clothing should reflect the characters social class and say something about their personality.

We try to stick to natural fibers with the allowance for some rayon.=A0 Try to keep to make sure any 20th C shortcuts are well hidden or thoroughly disguised.  Janet Arnolds is our primary reference.  There are, of course, areas where good history and good theater part company.  Certain concessions are made for the overall "look" of the show, but these are within a set of published guidelines; each is considered on an individual basis for merit and value.



At 10:21 AM 3/21/99 -0800, you wrote:
>
>-Poster: Margo Anderson <margo@directcon.net>
>
>Okay, THIS should get the list talking.=A0 I'm working on my costume class
>outlines, and I'd like to discuss costuming for different purposes, and the
>levels of autheticity expected for each.=A0 What are the various areas of
>costuming, and what are the specific needs and requirements for each?=A0
>
>Have fun!
>
>Margo
>
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com
> with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME
>
Cornelia Miller Rutherford
The Wizards of Gauze=20
Costume and Wearable Art Emporium 5436 Lomax Way =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0= =A0=A0=A0 Woodbridge, Virginia=A0 22193-3559
 _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: AlbertCat@aol.com Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 19:38:45 EST Subject: Re: H-COST: The costumed Whoopie - -Poster: AlbertCat@aol.com In a message dated 3/22/99 5:53:03 PM Eastern Standard Time, ches@io.com writes: << That silver thing.....man.....I put my daughter to bed by then, glad for it too. I cannot see anyone looking good in that. That would have embarrassed the heck out of me and nooooo way I would lay claim to that outfit. >> All of y'all who hate this fantastic [in every sense of the word] outfit are forgetting that costumes....which are not fashion.....do not exist in a void. They belong to a character living in a vision of an art director. That silver thing is for a 70s glammor-rock androginous emaciated guy....not a plump black woman. Do you think Shakespeare's turquois doublet looked fabulous on Woopie? Not! She is not the model who should have worn all those clothes. [in fact only EII & Oprah's outfits were probably close to her size...the others being left open or remade] I'm sure that silver thing & all the other outrageous stuff from "Velvet Goldmine" are worthy of their nomination. _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: AlbertCat@aol.com Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 19:14:41 EST Subject: Re: H-COST: Oscar dresses - -Poster: AlbertCat@aol.com In a message dated 3/22/99 4:16:22 PM Eastern Standard Time, 2maples@dnaco.net writes: << And I have to give Whoopi credit for having the guts to where that god- awful silver outfit among the other nominees for best costume. >> That was a great design by the winner Sandy Powell. Of course it looks much better on the thin lithe David Bowie type character for which it was intended. _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Franchesca Havas" Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 17:50:22 -0600 Subject: H-COST: men's links - -Poster: "Franchesca Havas" I need as many links to costuming for men specifically. If the site has some mention of men label it as so. What I am looking for is for men in period, any period prior to 1800. If by some bonus you have a site for LARGE men that would be the pinnacle of my search!!!!!!!!!! Thanks! Sincerely, F. Havas _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Susan Carroll-Clark" Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 19:08:37 -0500 Subject: Re: H-COST: Oscar dresses - -Poster: "Susan Carroll-Clark" Greetings! >And I have to give Whoopi credit for having the guts to where that god-awful >silver outfit among the other nominees for best costume. Sally Powell (that's her name, isn't it?) who was nominated for both "Shakespeare" and "Velvet (something or other)," which was the movie the silver atrocity was from, said as much, too. The question I had--were those all the actual costumes from the movies? I'm impressed Whoopi fit most of them (not that she's a large woman--it's more that some of them were men's costumes....) Susan Carroll-Clark _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Allison Thurman" Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 19:15:47 -0500 Subject: H-COST: oscar picks and pans - -Poster: "Allison Thurman" picks: i liked celine dion's outfit - if not for beauty then for sheer guts as there was nothing like it on anyone else. also cate blanchetts "tattoo" dress. and judi dench ALWAYS looks perfect! pans: anything pink. this is a personal bias. geena davis' opening dress was ok but could have been another color. also, i suppose it is correct on fancy-shmancy occasions like this to wear your hair up, but did it have to be laquered down (gwynneth paltrow)? re: whoopi's costumes: i thought these were a hoot! ive seen some complaints about "we didnt get to see the dresses in situ" - thats why we go to the movie. i didnt see velvet goldmine but may on the basis of that hideous silver thing - im too curious! best part of the night: any part of roberto benigni's acceptance speeches. allison _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ End of h-costume-digest V4 #228 ******************************* _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME-DIGEST From ???@??? Tue Mar 23 11:29:04 1999 Received: from mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE (mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE [130.149.4.16]) by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id DAA03477 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 03:22:09 +0100 (MET) Received: from mail.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.15]) by mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10PGpT-0002Yo-00; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 03:22:07 +0100 Received: from coal.bg.tu-berlin.de by mail.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Tue, 23 Mar 1999 03:22:00 +0100 Received: from mail2.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.14]) by mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10PGpJ-0002YP-00; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 03:21:57 +0100 Received: from tubkom.prz.tu-berlin.de by mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Tue, 23 Mar 1999 03:21:56 +0100 Received: from mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE (mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE [130.149.4.16]) by tubkom.prz.tu-berlin.de (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id DAA10246 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 03:20:22 +0100 (MEZ) Received: from mail.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.15]) by mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10PGpE-0002YN-00; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 03:21:52 +0100 Received: from server.indra.com by mail.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Tue, 23 Mar 1999 03:21:37 +0100 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.8.5/) with ESMTP id UAA27876; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 20:16:43 -0700 (MST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id TAA18569 for h-costume-digest-outgoing; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 19:20:14 -0700 (MST) Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 19:20:14 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199903230220.TAA18569@indra.com> From: owner-h-costume-digest@indra.com To: h-costume-digest@indra.com Subject: h-costume-digest V4 #229 Reply-To: h-costume-digest@indra.com Errors-To: owner-h-costume-digest@indra.com Precedence: bulk h-costume-digest Monday, 22 March 1999 Volume 04 : Number 229 In this issue: Re: H-COST: OT- past debate Re: H-COST: Reenactment, Living History, Recreation, etc Re: H-COST: Nightgown Help H-COST: Reenactment, Living History, Recreation, etc. Re: H-COST: Overview sources Re: H-COST: oscar picks and pans Re: H-COST: oscar picks and pans Re: H-COST: looking for a pattern H-COST: [Fwd: 1910-1915's...] H-COST: Re: Oscars Gowns (long of course) Re: H-COST: Reenactment, Living History, Recreation, etc. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "StitchWitch" Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 16:01:00 PST Subject: Re: H-COST: OT- past debate - -Poster: "StitchWitch" > > > -Poster: Lee Carter > > > > > > Awhile ago, there was a debate about the movie "Elizabeth" with its > > > costumes and "Shakespeare in Love's costumes... tonight during the > > > prelimiary Oscar festivities, the director of Elizabeth stated that the > > > embroidery on the costumes was done in India. If you show the one gown, > > > embroidered in gold on burgundy velvet... It looked out of place... I > > > think that is why some of the people had problems with the costumes... > > > > > > my opinion... oh, Whoopie looked wonderful in the Queen Elizabeth's > > > costume... white face paint and all..... > Yes, but I tell you what...someone should have taught her to walk in > that dress!!!! > - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - -- > Claire F. Clarke I dunno, I think we should cut her some slack here. After all, how often does a the modern black woman get to wear full court Elizabethans? Kate - ---- StitchWitch All things are possible until they are proved impossible - and even the impossible may only be so, as of now. - Pearl S. Buck _______________________________________________________ Get your free, private email at http://mail.excite.com/ _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: agottfre@telusplanet.net (Angela Gottfred) Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 17:04:33 -0700 Subject: Re: H-COST: Reenactment, Living History, Recreation, etc - -Poster: agottfre@telusplanet.net (Angela Gottfred) Living History (folks who demonstrate a very particular time & place in costume to the public) can be split into two subgroups--costumed interpreters at living history sites, usually employed by some level of government; and amateurs/volunteers, who organize demonstrations to which they invite the public. In my somewhat limited experience, the interpreters usually all meet a basic level of costume accuracy. However, budgets can limit just how accurate these guys get. When I was at Old Fort William three years ago, I saw many wonderful costumes being worn by interpreters. A few folks had to wear oversized clothing, and moccasins usually were modern mass-produced products of the Huron reserves near Montreal. When I was there last year, after massive budget cuts, all the hard-to-care-for costumes (with beading, ribbon trim, etc.) were gone, waiting for a better day I suppose. It was sad, but everyone was still presentable. Amateurs often have far better costumes than the professional interpreters, because they can afford the time & effort for their beloved hobby; but they can also be much worse, because they aren't necessarily backed by the scholarly research usually available to the pros. Your humble & obedient servant, Angela Gottfred agottfre@telusplanet.net _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Franchesca Havas" Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 17:46:30 -0600 Subject: Re: H-COST: Nightgown Help - -Poster: "Franchesca Havas" Fix the code for your images, you have them pointing to your E: drive instead of the ISP environment. :) Sincerely, F. Havas - -----Original Message----- From: Chantal Pecourt To: h-costume@indra.com Date: Monday, March 22, 1999 5:30 PM Subject: H-COST: Nightgown Help : :-Poster: Chantal Pecourt : :Hello all : I recently bought a night gown at Victorias Secret. It is unusual in that :it is VERY Regency looking. It was, of course, the only one and on sale at :that so they no longer sell them. I love it and want to make more. I was :wondering if anyone knew of patterns from this era that would help me make :a night gown similar to this one? I have placed close up pictures of this :gown at : : :http://www.idsi.net/~chanty/gown.htm : :It is not a riske gown, so there are not any dirty pictures! : :Any help would be appreciated. I want to make lots of them, they are SO :comfortable to sleep in. Does Victoria's Secret sell their patterns? : : :thanks : :Chantal : : : : _________________________________________________________________ : To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com : with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME : _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Marsha McLean Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 18:54:38 -0500 (EST) Subject: H-COST: Reenactment, Living History, Recreation, etc. - -Poster: Marsha McLean I do my work for the SCA and I attempt the most accurate reproduction possible. I focus on: Technique - I use techniques used in my period based on primary sources, I base my patterns on extant 16th c.pattern books, or draft based on evidence in portraiture. My focus is more on technique and materials than finished "look". I feel that proper look can ONLY be achieved through period technique. I do allow for periods where little evidence is available; obviously in that case one must hypothesize. Please do not misunderstand - I am no Authenticity Nazi - I understand that clothing is not most peoples' main interest and will only offer criticism (constructive) when asked. I am also not of the "if they'da had it. they'da used it" school. ;^> From: Margo Anderson Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 10:21:28 -0800 (PST) Subject: H-COST: Reenactment, Living History, Recreation, etc. - - -Poster: Margo Anderson Okay, THIS should get the list talking. I'm working on my costume class outlines, and I'd like to discuss costuming for different purposes, and the levels of autheticity expected for each. What are the various areas of costuming, and what are the specific needs and requirements for each? Have fun! Margo _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Danielle Nunn Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 18:49:40 -0500 Subject: Re: H-COST: Overview sources - -Poster: Danielle Nunn Greetings, >Which books do you think give the best general overview, are easy to >follow, and are accurate enough not to imprint the old myths on these >kids? I would prefer to avoid any book that relies on redrawings rather >than primary sources (so things like Wilcox, Lister, Peacock, and >Bradfield are right out). The books should be available in libraries (so >no Queen Elizabeth's Wardrobe Unlock'd). > >I'm thinking of Boucher, Black & Garland, maybe some others. Thoughts? Well, I would put my vote in for Boucher. From the little I've read of his text it's not too bad. There is a good survey in pictures and is relativly common. Cheers, Danielle _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: seamstrix@juno.com Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 19:00:18 -0600 Subject: Re: H-COST: oscar picks and pans - -Poster: seamstrix@juno.com Although it didn't get too much attention, I really liked the dress that Brenda Blethyn was wearing. It was nicely tailored,a terrific color, it was very flattering to her mature figure and had lovely tone-on-tone beading which added some sparkle without being gawdy. I also really like Lynn Redgrave's dress, I though she just looked super from her hair down to her shoes, a very classy lady! Of course Sophia was fabulous. As for Helen Hunt, the dress was blah, her hair was flat, and her eye makeup was way too heavy especially in the daylight during the pre-show. Katherine Zita-Jones was stunning in the red, just beautiful, and I liked Jennifer Lopez as well. I was wondering about the slicked back hair fashion which seems to be happening, the ladies with the fabulous bone structure can get away with it, but on many ladies it's just a bit too severe. Christina Ricci was wearing a nice dress but it didn't seem to fit her. Both the shoulder straps fell down while she was on stage and I swear I saw some underpinnings showing. I liked the Japanese lady who wore the purple, she picked an unusual color and a lovely design. I liked Sandy Powell's dress, but I think that the proportion would have been better if the skirt had been a bit longer. I didn't mind the color of Gwyneth's dress, rosey pinks are okay by me, but I thought the dress could have fit better, it's a good thing she's petite because if she weren't I think she would have fallen out. Karen _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Susan Carroll-Clark" Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 20:39:00 -0500 Subject: Re: H-COST: oscar picks and pans - -Poster: "Susan Carroll-Clark" Greetings! One dress I liked a fair bit was that worn by the woman who was on the production team for _Shakespeare in Love_--you saw her when the Best Picture award was presented. She was in a steely grey sheath with this rather nifty design on it. I wish I'd gotten a better look at it. I definitely liked the Japanese lady in the purple, although the sleeve treatments were a bit fussy for me. She looked fabulous in that colour. Susan _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Susan Fatemi Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 17:51:22 -0800 Subject: Re: H-COST: looking for a pattern - -Poster: Susan Fatemi Hope H. Dunlap wrote: > > -Poster: "Hope H. Dunlap" > > Susan, Have you tried Pattern Service at Vogue itself? They > don't have everything, but here's the info: > > Butterick and Vogue Pattern Company: > > Vogue Pattern Service > PO Box 1914 Dept D > Altoona, PA 16603 > > BillG@Butterick.com or 1-800-766-2670. > > Hope H. Dunlap Thanks, Hope. Yes, I e-mailed them, and got a reply that they don't have any. I've scanned in the picture in case anyone thinks they might have it. Susan - -- Oh Noh! Kimonos! susanf@netwiz.net http://www.netwiz.net/~susanf _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Bill and/or Glenna Jo Christen Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 21:00:30 -0500 Subject: H-COST: [Fwd: 1910-1915's...] - -Poster: Bill and/or Glenna Jo Christen I received this message from my web site. Since my focus interest pretty much ends by 1867 I'm not much help to her. If anyone can offer her suggestions, please repy directly to her at the following address. Thanks so much! Glenna Jo Christen SVavrosky@aol.com wrote: > Hello; recently I was looking around the Internet for information and > pictures of Irish women's attire from the early nineteen hundreds, especially > around the time of the Titanic's sinking. > > I'm involved in a project right now where I play a young Irish woman who > traveled third class on the Titanic. She came from around Laois, Ireland, and > I need to find some pictures, or information, on the kind of clothes she would > wear, like I previously mentioned. > > It would help me a marvelous much if you could lead me to a site like this. > Thank you for listening. > > ~*~ Vavra ~*~ _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Penny E. Ladnier" Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 21:07:56 -0500 (EST) Subject: H-COST: Re: Oscars Gowns (long of course) - -Poster: "Penny E. Ladnier" Of course it long, I love evening gowns and award shows! Some good points were made about the Oscar gowns on the list today. I video-taped the pre-pre show (E! TV) and the pre-show (ABC) and the Oscars. I wanted to freeze the frames and see more of the gowns. I wanted to use my new software and see if I can get computer images for myself to view. Also, I just got a 32" inch HD television, so I could see everything but and clearly. I wanted to know who all the designers were of the gowns. So I took notes all evening. I wish I had time to write an article but I am busy trying to get other things up on the web for you all. So here it goes what I found interesting... I love that they put Whoopi in all the costumes. I think this will do BIG things for our industry. Generally, the general public does not notice the technical awards. Last night, people really DID notice that costume design is an award. I was disappointed that more of the films' designs and sketches were not shown as in previous years. I think the best presentation for the costume designs was the year "Somewhere in Time" was nominated. The pre shows also made a big deal about the fashions that were worn. This is great for the fashion industry. It has been a long time since the public has been interested in what the stars wear. The ABC pre-show also did a nice presentation of past fashions at the Oscars. Maybe, a new trend is on its way!!! BTW, I have seen several interviews with Whoopi in the past few weeks and everyone asked... "What are you going to wear?" She always giggled and said, "You know I don't care about fashion." I loved the Elizabeth costume, but no one has mentioned the "Pleasantville" costume she wore. It was wonderful! The front was a color version and the back was a black and white version. This was very clever design on behalf of the designer, playing on the theme of the film. NOW... noone has mentioned one of my favorite evening gown... Lynn Redgrave was stunning. She looked so elegant. Her hair, makeup, and gown were perfect. She did carry the gown well. I too, watched the "In Style" fashion editor on Good Morning America and agree with him 99%. Most women do not know how to carry themself in an evening gown, Helen Hunt is one and also Myria. If a woman is graceful enough she can wear a paper bag and make look good. I personally am surprised that actresses do not have more deportment in wearing gowns. Most people when wearing an evening gown take on a different persona. Actors "make a living" at changing their persona. Maybe, the problem is that film actors do not know how to act when they are live on camera and can not do a re-take. How many of you practiced walking in your wedding gown to look graceful. On E! many of the actresses commented that they did not get their gown, in hand, until the day of the event. I think for the important of event, I would have had it before and practiced walking. Sophia was the talk of the night but I really did not care for the neckline of the gown. It was too low and as she was coming out on stage, one of her breast almost fell out. Those of you who videotaped the event, rewind and look. I was screaming for my husband (who was in the other room) to look at her. Boy, she DID look great for a woman of her age. I loved the bustle revival last night, especially Sandy Powell (the gown should have been full length) and Geena Davis (did anyone notice her adorable purse?) I liked Celine Dion's arrival costume, although it was not fitting for the Oscar approach. She did wear it well, especially the hat. Did anyone notice that when she was interviewed by Joan Rivers that she slanted her head downward and slide the sunglasses down like the 1930-40s actresses. I have seen so many movie star photos in this pose. Mariah needed to lose some weight to wear her gown. Although, I did catch that there is some rumors about her sudden weight gain. Maybe, the gown was fitted prior to the gain. I kept thinking, she must be in misery with that dress so tight. It did appear that she was wearing a long line bra or a corset underneath. Look at how constrained she was in the midriff and beneath the waistline, she bloomed out of the dress. As for the hairstyles... Audrey Hepburn and Grace Kelly looks! Gwenyth protrayed the hair style perfectly. Gwenyth said that she was not going to wear her hair extensions. I think her hair looks better with it pulled back instead of down and short. She has lovely hair when it is long. That straight flat hairstyle is here to stay for a while. All the fashion magazines have been promoting it for the past two years. That 60s/70s look, its going to stay for a while. That poofy, curly look of the 80s/early 90s is out. One actress, I can't recall who, had her short hair slicked back into a very short ponytail (very tacky). She had nothing special to garnish. Back to Helen for a moment. She said to Joan Rivers that all she did (that day) in makeup was throw on some mascra. (She also used a very heavy eyeliner.) Personally, I think Helen is one of those ladies who looks far better in a casual look. I thought Steven Tyler's daughter was beautiful. Her gown was very lovely and she carried it well. Boy, thank God, she didn't inherit her Daddy's looks. One dress that I wish I could have seen more of was Meryl Streep's. I kept seeing the bodice but not the skirt. I think the most interesting (for lack of a better word) was Geena Davis presentation gown. I have to study it more. I kept thinking the stylist must have taped her body to the gown. It was very clever in design hiding the crease lines of her breast. This is one of those who gowns you need to take a closer look at. I thought Rosie O'Donnell's comment was interesting this morning on the Today show. She was talking about how the stylists tape the women's breast to give them more clevage on the award shows. I knew the stylists did this to models and beauty contestants but actors??? The Japanese director's gown was wonderful! I loved the flowers and her speech. I can't go without saying this... The Oscar that I picked from the moment I saw the film, was for Special Effects for "When Dreams May Come". When I first saw the paintings scenes, I said "There goes the Oscar!" 250,000 computer graphics in motion! Bravo!!!! I am so inspired! I can't wait to do this to costumes one day. Later...Penny Penny E. Dunlap Ladnier The Costume Gallery Website http://www.costumegallery.com _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Lady Osanna Zephyrine de Bordeaux Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 12:51:07 Subject: Re: H-COST: Reenactment, Living History, Recreation, etc. - -Poster: Lady Osanna Zephyrine de Bordeaux The group I am with 're-creates' the period of the 3rd crusade. OUr time period is 1150-1250, but for purposes of public displays, we do the year 1195. Given the limited resources for doing a Crusader group in Australia (although I'm constantly amazed at how well we do sometimes), we are becoming well known for our portrayals of tourneys during the period, as well as lifestyles, crafts and so on. We may not be as good as some groups in this country or overseas, but we are pretty new (2 years old now), and are getting better and better all the time. When asked we tend to refer to ourselves as living history, because we do do it as closely as possible to historically correct, although we also call ourselves re-enactors. Its a grey area, really. I guess you have to be brutally honest about what you do in a group before deciding on what category best describes you. When we first started, people would ask if we were a branch of the SCA, so we got pretty good at explaining no we weren't and why we weren't. For one thing, our armor is chain mail and we fight with metal weapons. We use both the barrel helm and the nasal helm, which I understand to be illegal in SCA combat. We don't hit full force because of the metal weapons, but do hit full speed. When we do a display/encampment, it comprises of items made of wood, pottery, brass, etc, and there are no modern items around (with the exception of medi alert bracelts, etc-if someone is injured and has a medical condition we sort of need to know what to tell the medics....)The few modern items we do have, such as eskys, medical kits, etc, are all cunningly disguised or hidden from the public eye. Practise makes perfect, and we get better all the time. Just my two cents. I'll stop rambling now. Lydie ___________________________________ Living on Earth may be expensive, but it includes an annual free trip around the Sun. http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Lair/5459/cover.htm (Cover page to all my pages) starkiller@picknowl.com.au _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ End of h-costume-digest V4 #229 ******************************* _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME-DIGEST From ???@??? Tue Mar 23 11:29:05 1999 Received: from mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE (mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE [130.149.4.16]) by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA04259 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 06:33:12 +0100 (MET) Received: from mail.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.15]) by mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10PJoN-0005pD-00; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 06:33:11 +0100 Received: from coal.bg.tu-berlin.de by mail.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Tue, 23 Mar 1999 06:32:58 +0100 Received: from mail.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.15]) by mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10PJo7-0005pB-00; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 06:32:55 +0100 Received: from tubkom.prz.tu-berlin.de by mail.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Tue, 23 Mar 1999 06:32:42 +0100 Received: from mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE (mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE [130.149.4.16]) by tubkom.prz.tu-berlin.de (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id GAA10916 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 06:31:08 +0100 (MEZ) Received: from mail.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.15]) by mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10PJnq-0005p8-01; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 06:32:38 +0100 Received: from server.indra.com by mail.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Tue, 23 Mar 1999 06:32:27 +0100 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.8.5/) with ESMTP id XAA27339; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 23:27:58 -0700 (MST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id WAA10385 for h-costume-digest-outgoing; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 22:31:02 -0700 (MST) Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 22:31:02 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199903230531.WAA10385@indra.com> From: owner-h-costume-digest@indra.com To: h-costume-digest@indra.com Subject: h-costume-digest V4 #230 Reply-To: h-costume-digest@indra.com Errors-To: owner-h-costume-digest@indra.com Precedence: bulk h-costume-digest Monday, 22 March 1999 Volume 04 : Number 230 In this issue: RE: H-COST: Re: Oscars H-COST: CSA National Symposium Re: H-COST: Nightgown Help Re: H-COST: men's links H-COST: Re: Oscar picks Re: H-COST: Oscar dresses Re: H-COST: Oscar dresses Re: H-COST: men's links Re: H-COST: Re: Oscars Re: H-COST: Nightgown Help Lets try again! Re: H-COST: men's links Re: H-COST: Nightgown Help Lets try again! H-COST: Nightgown Help:URLS work now ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Cathy Harding" Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 18:26:16 -0800 Subject: RE: H-COST: Re: Oscars - -Poster: "Cathy Harding" The LA times site, while rather awkward has some great pictures including one of the purple dress... http://www.latimes.com/HOME/CALENDARLIVE/MOVIES/OSCAR99/PHOTO/# It opens up many windows and the thumbnails on the right will load more photos. _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Penny E. Ladnier" Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 21:30:52 -0500 (EST) Subject: H-COST: CSA National Symposium - -Poster: "Penny E. Ladnier" Kelly Rinne and I have finished creating The Costume Society of America's National Symposium Website, http://www.costumesocietyamerica.com/natsym.htm . The symposium, "Global Expressions: Costumes, Culture, and Culture" will be May 22-25 in Santa Fe, New Mexico. If you are intested, we have created a full agenda webpage, study tours, and an online registration form. The presentations and presenters are listed on the Agenda pages. Penny Ladnier, webmaster for Costume Society of America Penny E. Dunlap Ladnier The Costume Gallery Website http://www.costumegallery.com _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Chantal Pecourt Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 22:27:18 -0500 Subject: Re: H-COST: Nightgown Help - -Poster: Chantal Pecourt Sorry. the HTML tag should read http://www.idsi.net/~chanty/gown.htm Hope that fixes the problem. At 05:46 PM 3/22/99 -0600, you wrote: > >-Poster: "Franchesca Havas" > >Fix the code for your images, you have them pointing to your E: drive >instead of the ISP environment. :) > >Sincerely, >F. Havas > >-----Original Message----- >From: Chantal Pecourt >To: h-costume@indra.com >Date: Monday, March 22, 1999 5:30 PM >Subject: H-COST: Nightgown Help > > >: >:-Poster: Chantal Pecourt >: >:Hello all >: I recently bought a night gown at Victorias Secret. It is unusual in that >:it is VERY Regency looking. It was, of course, the only one and on sale at >:that so they no longer sell them. I love it and want to make more. I was >:wondering if anyone knew of patterns from this era that would help me make >:a night gown similar to this one? I have placed close up pictures of this >:gown at >: >: >:http://www.idsi.net/~chanty/gown.htm >: >:It is not a riske gown, so there are not any dirty pictures! >: >:Any help would be appreciated. I want to make lots of them, they are SO >:comfortable to sleep in. Does Victoria's Secret sell their patterns? >: >: >:thanks >: >:Chantal >: >: >: >: _________________________________________________________________ >: To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com >: with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME >: > > _________________________________________________________________ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Sue Shatto Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 22:54:33 -0500 Subject: Re: H-COST: men's links - -Poster: Sue Shatto Franchesca, I have a friend that sews for herself and portly husband. She is historically accurate and a fine seamstress. She is not on the web, but you could call her at 301-223-7406. Her name is Linda. Hope this helps. At 05:50 PM 3/22/99 -0600, you wrote: > >-Poster: "Franchesca Havas" > >I need as many links to costuming for men specifically. If the site has some >mention of men label it as so. What I am looking for is for men in period, >any period prior to 1800. If by some bonus you have a site for LARGE men >that would be the pinnacle of my search!!!!!!!!!! > >Thanks! > >Sincerely, >F. Havas > > > _________________________________________________________________ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME > > Cordially, Sue Shatto Sue@VictorianMillinery.com http://www.VictorianMillinery.com _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Kristen M. Sieber" Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 20:08:18 -0800 (PST) Subject: H-COST: Re: Oscar picks - -Poster: "Kristen M. Sieber" > - -Poster: "Penny E. Ladnier" > One actress, I can't recall who, had her short hair slicked back into a very > short ponytail (very tacky). She had nothing special to garnish. > > I thought Steven Tyler's daughter was beautiful. Her gown was very lovely > and she carried it well. Boy, thank God, she didn't inherit her Daddy's looks. Both, Liv Tyler. > I thought Rosie O'Donnell's comment was interesting this morning on the > Today show. She was talking about how the stylists tape the women's breast > to give them more clevage on the award shows. I knew the stylists did this > to models and beauty contestants but actors??? > Oh, yes. My heroine, Vivien Leigh, was taped into some of her dresses in "Gone With the Wind". Kristen _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Catherine de Calais" Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 20:08:17 PST Subject: Re: H-COST: Oscar dresses - -Poster: "Catherine de Calais" I don't know about the BROAD comment, but yes, Sophia Loren did look fablous! Catherine >From: Sylvia Rognstad >Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com >To: h-costume@indra.com >Subject: Re: H-COST: Oscar dresses >Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 12:24:11 -0700 (MST) >MIME-Version: 1.0 >From owner-h-costume@indra.com Mon Mar 22 11:34:27 1999 >Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1])by server.indra.com (8.8.5/) with ESMTP id NAA12261;Mon, 22 Mar 1999 13:29:45 -0700 (MST) >Received: (from majordom@localhost)by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id MAA18756for h-costume-outgoing; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 12:33:38 -0700 (MST) >Received: from isis.netherworld.com (isis.Netherworld.COM [199.165.233.10])by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id MAA18622for ; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 12:33:23 -0700 (MST) >Received: from localhost by isis.netherworld.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with SMTP id MAA16225for ; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 12:24:13 - -0700 (MST) >In-Reply-To: <001c01be749a$3b370640$601cbfa8@dsc> >Message-ID: >Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com >Precedence: bulk > > >-Poster: Sylvia Rognstad > >The best looking broad there and also the best dressed was Sophia Loren, >and she's old enough to be a lot of those actresses' grandmothers! >Sylvia > > >Divinity Designs http://www.d-e-designs.com/divinity/ >515 Manhattan Drive, #203 sylvia@netherworld.com >Boulder, CO 80303 USA complete catalog on website > > _________________________________________________________________ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: kat@grendal.rain.com Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 20:14:15 +0000 Subject: Re: H-COST: Oscar dresses - -Poster: kat@grendal.rain.com > Amen. Gwyneth Paltrow's hair didn't fit her much better than her dress. For > all the money she must have paid, she couldn't have a seamstress adjust her > bust so that it wasn't a size too big? Actually, it did fit. At least as long as she didn't hunch her shoulders so far forward that the dress did things it wasn't meant to do. My least favorite was Uma Thurman's dress. It looked like she hadn't had time to do a dress so someone just pinned fabric around her. I was on the phone with a friend who as also watching. My friend thought she was wearing some odd form of cumberbund until I pointed out that it was skin, complete with belly button. I also agree with the person who said it looked like she had the front of the dress caught in her panties. I'm wondering if she didn't because as she was leaving the stage it looked like it was no longer caught up there. Poor thing. She really did look like a fashion tragedy. Kat Kat(June Russell) kat@grendal.rain.com Heu! Tintinnuntius meus Sonat! _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Carol J. Bell Cannon" Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 20:34:06 -0800 Subject: Re: H-COST: men's links - -Poster: "Carol J. Bell Cannon" At 10:54 PM 3/22/99 -0500, you wrote: > >-Poster: Sue Shatto > >Franchesca, > I have a friend that sews for herself and portly husband. She is >historically accurate and a fine seamstress. She is not on the web, but >you could call her at 301-223-7406. Her name is Linda. Hope this helps. Sue--You know I have inadvertantly posted to the list when I meant to post only to one person. I hope no 'flakes' are here and that your friend doesn't get a bunch of weird phone calls... . Good luck to you all... Carol _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: M311@aol.com Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 23:35:09 EST Subject: Re: H-COST: Re: Oscars - -Poster: M311@aol.com In a message dated 3/22/99 8:26:56 PM Central Standard Time, charding@nwlink.com writes: << The LA times site, while rather awkward has some great pictures including one of the purple dress... http://www.latimes.com/HOME/CALENDARLIVE/MOVIES/OSCAR99/PHOTO/# >> Hey, I just checked this out and it allows you to vote on the dresses, to give your opinion, either classy or trashy. Kelly Albrecht m311@aol.com _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Chantal Pecourt Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 23:43:23 -0500 Subject: Re: H-COST: Nightgown Help Lets try again! - -Poster: Chantal Pecourt My appologies to everyone who may have tried to view the gown pictures and could not. I am trying to figure out why. In the meantime, I have placed a link from my home page to the images. I hope that this works. Let me know and all help in regards to getting a pattern for this type of nightgown is greatly appreciated. My original message and questions are at the bottom of this message. Thanks again My home page: http://www.idsi.net/~chanty/ Or typing it in manually www.idsi.net/~chanty The gown page, unsure if it works, it should but doesn't seem to >>-----Original Message----- >>From: Chantal Pecourt >>To: h-costume@indra.com >>Date: Monday, March 22, 1999 5:30 PM >>Subject: H-COST: Nightgown Help >> >> >>: >>:-Poster: Chantal Pecourt >>: >>:Hello all >>: I recently bought a night gown at Victorias Secret. It is unusual in that >>:it is VERY Regency looking. It was, of course, the only one and on sale at >>:that so they no longer sell them. I love it and want to make more. I was >>:wondering if anyone knew of patterns from this era that would help me make >>:a night gown similar to this one? I have placed close up pictures of this >>:gown at >>: >>: >>:http://www.idsi.net/~chanty/gown.htm >>: >>:It is not a riske gown, so there are not any dirty pictures! >>: >>:Any help would be appreciated. I want to make lots of them, they are SO >>:comfortable to sleep in. Does Victoria's Secret sell their patterns? >>: >>: >>:thanks >>: >>:Chantal >>: >>: >>: >>: _________________________________________________________________ >>: To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com >>: with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME >>: >> >> _________________________________________________________________ >> To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com >> with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME > > > _________________________________________________________________ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: The Mulders Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 23:02:02 -0600 Subject: Re: H-COST: men's links - -Poster: The Mulders I am currently doing costumes for a theater group which has the largest men I have ever sewn for. The play is set in 1692. Out of 12 men 9 have waist larger than 43 inches. One is 6' 6" and weighs in at 490+ pounds. There are two with 58 inch waists, need I say more. If I can be of some help I'd be happy to try. We are in th process of creating a web page for costuming. Thanks, Ninya Sue Shatto wrote: > -Poster: Sue Shatto > > Franchesca, > I have a friend that sews for herself and portly husband. She is > historically accurate and a fine seamstress. She is not on the web, but > you could call her at 301-223-7406. Her name is Linda. Hope this helps. > > At 05:50 PM 3/22/99 -0600, you wrote: > > > >-Poster: "Franchesca Havas" > > > >I need as many links to costuming for men specifically. If the site has some > >mention of men label it as so. What I am looking for is for men in period, > >any period prior to 1800. If by some bonus you have a site for LARGE men > >that would be the pinnacle of my search!!!!!!!!!! > > > >Thanks! > > > >Sincerely, > >F. Havas > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME > > > > > > Cordially, > > Sue Shatto > > Sue@VictorianMillinery.com > http://www.VictorianMillinery.com > > _________________________________________________________________ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: M311@aol.com Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 00:04:32 EST Subject: Re: H-COST: Nightgown Help Lets try again! - -Poster: M311@aol.com In a message dated 3/22/99 10:36:55 PM Central Standard Time, chanty@idsi.net writes: << My appologies to everyone who may have tried to view the gown pictures and could not. I am trying to figure out why. In the meantime, I have placed a link from my home page to the images. I hope that this works. Let me know and all help in regards to getting a pattern for this type of nightgown is greatly appreciated. My original message and questions are at the bottom of this message. Thanks again My home page: http://www.idsi.net/~chanty/ >> I can get to your home page but the link on that goes to the same blank page. no pictures there. You have to physically copy your pictures, publish them, to your web page. You have them pointing to your e drive. What is highlighted in red needs changed. It need to point to the file in the directory where you published it. Kelly m311@aol.com Untitled Normal Page Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 00:37:44 -0500 Subject: H-COST: Nightgown Help:URLS work now - -Poster: Chantal Pecourt Hello Many thanks to everyone who helped me figure out why my images were not working. Little sleep and HTML writing should never go together. It is corrected now. Thank you for your patience!! The original message and the NOW WORKING links are below. >>:Hello all >>: I recently bought a night gown at Victorias Secret. It is unusual in that >>:it is VERY Regency looking. It was, of course, the only one and on sale at >>:that so they no longer sell them. I LOVE it and want to make more. I was >>:wondering if anyone knew of patterns from this era that would help me make >>:a night gown similar to this one? It is a long gown, down to the ankles. I have placed close up pictures of this >>:gown at http://www.idsi.net/~chanty Follow the pointer OR directly at: http://www.idsi.net/~chanty/gown.htm >>: >>: >>:Any help would be appreciated. I want to make lots of them, they are SO >>:comfortable to sleep in. Does Victoria's Secret sell their patterns? >>: >>: Thanks again! _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ End of h-costume-digest V4 #230 ******************************* _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME-DIGEST From ???@??? Tue Mar 23 18:49:34 1999 Received: from mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE (mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE [130.149.4.16]) by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA11135 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 18:47:35 +0100 (MET) Received: from mail.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.15]) by mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10PVH3-0005ee-00; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 18:47:33 +0100 Received: from coal.bg.tu-berlin.de by mail.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Tue, 23 Mar 1999 18:47:28 +0100 Received: from mail2.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.14]) by mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10PVGu-0005eW-00; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 18:47:24 +0100 Received: from tubkom.prz.tu-berlin.de by mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Tue, 23 Mar 1999 18:47:20 +0100 Received: from mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE (mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE [130.149.4.16]) by tubkom.prz.tu-berlin.de (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA16070 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 18:45:46 +0100 (MEZ) Received: from mail.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.15]) by mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10PVGm-0005dy-00; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 18:47:16 +0100 Received: from server.indra.com by mail.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Tue, 23 Mar 1999 18:46:13 +0100 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.8.5/) with ESMTP id LAA05956; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 11:43:01 -0700 (MST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id KAA25535 for h-costume-digest-outgoing; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 10:44:34 -0700 (MST) Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 10:44:34 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199903231744.KAA25535@indra.com> From: owner-h-costume-digest@indra.com To: h-costume-digest@indra.com Subject: h-costume-digest V4 #231 Reply-To: h-costume-digest@indra.com Errors-To: owner-h-costume-digest@indra.com Precedence: bulk h-costume-digest Tuesday, 23 March 1999 Volume 04 : Number 231 In this issue: Re: H-COST: Oscar dresses H-COST: Costume Design Oscars H-COST: Taping for cleavage Re: H-COST: Oscar dresses Re: H-COST: Oscar dresses H-COST: Re: Oscar dresses H-COST: Re: oscar dresses H-COST: Re: Pink oscar dresses Re: H-COST: Re: oscar dresses Re: H-COST: Taping for cleavage Re: H-COST: Corsets and Stays on the Frontier Re: H-COST: Corsets and Stays on the Frontier RE: H-COST: Nightgown Help:URLS work now ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: cynthia j ley Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 00:53:02 EST Subject: Re: H-COST: Oscar dresses - -Poster: cynthia j ley >Amen. Gwyneth Paltrow's hair didn't fit her much better than her >dress. For all the money she must have paid, she couldn't have a seamstress >adjust her bust so that it wasn't a size too big? Gods, yes. She looked like a boy stuck into a woman's gown. Can anyone say "underpinnings?" She needed the tule wrap to even begin looking like she had a bustline! I only saw bits of the Oscars, but overall, am delighted that the classic gown seems to have come back--clean, simple, elegant. Arlys ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Eleanor Farrell Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 22:54:44 -0700 Subject: H-COST: Costume Design Oscars - -Poster: Eleanor Farrell Am enjoying reading everyone's comments about the Oscars and (especially) who wore what -- fewer fashion victims than last year, in my opinion. FIDM (the Fashion Institute of Design and Merchandising) in LA puts on an annual Spring exhibit of film costumes, which focuses on the Academy Award nominees. This year their web site has lots of pictures of the pieces in the exhibit (from 12 films released in 1998, including all 5 Oscar contenders). WELL worth checking out; exhibit runs through April 16th. Their web site is: http://www.fidm.com I've put up a review of the exhibit (along with lots of other Oscar related costume stuff) on my film costume site, "Celluloid Wrappers", at: http://www.fortunecity.com/lavender/heat/218/ This year, all 5 nominated films well deserved their spots, and each designer had a very unique interpretation and use of costume for her films (all women this year). Sandy Powell's costumes for "Shakespeare in Love" were my favorites, and I'm glad she won (especially considering the scope of her film work, including "Orlando" and "The Wings of the Dove"). Although I agree that Whoopi was not the best model for most of the pieces she wore during the Oscars, at least Costume Design got a bit more attention than usual. Usually it's one of the early evening "get this one over with; nobody cares" awards. Sometimes we're lucky to see one brief sketch for each film, and one year (when "Restoration" won) there was a short "fashion show" of models wearing nominated costumes.... but the cameras only focused on their faces and torsos!! Very frustrating. Cheers, Eleanor ************************************************** Eleanor M. Farrell emfarrell@earthlink.net Celluloid Wrappers: Costume in the Movies http://www.fortunecity.com/lavender/heat/218/ ************************************************* _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Leslie Helms Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 23:22:22 -0800 Subject: H-COST: Taping for cleavage - -Poster: Leslie Helms Penny wrote: >I thought Rosie O'Donnell's comment was interesting this morning on the >Today show. She was talking about how the stylists tape the women's breast >to give them more clevage on the award shows. I knew the stylists did this >to models and beauty contestants but actors??? Heavens yes! We go through rolls of surgical tape! It's so funny, what can be common in one area of costume and unfamiliar in another that seems closely related. For the cleavage-type corseting (1700s) there is nothing as helpful as surgical tape to get the uplift effect to really show from the back row! Both of our young female leads in "She Stoops to Conquer" were dazzlingly flat. Corseting alone could have done nothing with it; we taped, underpadded, and then corseted furiously to create *any* bosom at all. Leslie _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Karen J Farris Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 07:55:25 -0500 Subject: Re: H-COST: Oscar dresses - -Poster: Karen J Farris On Mon, 22 Mar 1999 12:51:20 EST AlbertCat@aol.com writes: > >-Poster: AlbertCat@aol.com >Yeah, I laughed out loud at that part. Karen Farris >Of course >it's hard to keep a straight face while tap dancing an interpretation >of the >soundtrack to "Saving Private Ryan." DUMB! > _________________________________________________________________ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME > ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Karen J Farris Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 07:52:30 -0500 Subject: Re: H-COST: Oscar dresses - -Poster: Karen J Farris My only comment would be that, while the slickedback look is not for everyone, I did appreciate the fact that at least they didn't look like they had just gotten out of bed and had forgotten their hairbrushes this year. karen Farris > >>And what is it with the hair sleeked back into a little bun? Was >everyone >>trying to look like the stereotypical old maid librarian? A most >>unattractive look. > > _________________________________________________________________ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME > ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Gaelscot@aol.com Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 09:04:57 EST Subject: H-COST: Re: Oscar dresses - -Poster: Gaelscot@aol.com I didn't see the whole ceremony, and so I missed a couple of the bizarre- sounding things people mentioned. On the whole, I thought the dresses looked pretty much the same. Most of them were attractive and classic and rather dull. A lot of them didn't fit. Especially Gwyneth Paltrow's gown. The whole bodice looked wrong -- as if she hadn't shown up for any fittings, or the gown was actually made for someone else. Even my husband noticed. The ugliest thing I saw was Gena Davis's thing. What was going on there? It was hideous. She was practically naked, and neither the naked part nor the clothed part looked attractive. My all-time favorite Oscar dress (I think it was an Oscar dress!) was the brown one Oprah Winfrey wore, with a gigantic train and everything. You couldn't have worn it anywhere else -- it was way too big to fit into a ballroom, as I remember it -- but I thought it was marvelous. Gail Finke _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Gaelscot@aol.com Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 09:20:41 EST Subject: H-COST: Re: oscar dresses - -Poster: Gaelscot@aol.com I am still catching up on all the Oscar posts. What do you people have against pink??? Gail Finke _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Franchesca Havas" Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 08:30:49 -0600 Subject: H-COST: Re: Pink oscar dresses - -Poster: "Franchesca Havas" I like pink, I had a pink car until I had a baby, it was a girl, she was dress in pink a lot. She loves pink too. I think that in this instance it is not so much the color that was offensive but that the dress just did not look fitted well to her in the bosom and the pink just made it all unappealing to look at. The color almost matched her flushed skin color. I wonder if she has a stand in body double for her movie, I remember that her breast were large enough to fill that dress. I hope she is ok and not ill, that would however explain what happen to the fit if she had taken ill even a week after her last fitting. My wedding dress did the same thing, I was a size 8 and lost 5 pounds due to a flu just a week after the last fitting before the wedding and it did not hug the right spots after that. :( Sincerely, F. Havas - -----Original Message----- From: Gaelscot@aol.com To: h-costume-digest@indra.com Date: Tuesday, March 23, 1999 8:22 AM Subject: H-COST: Re: oscar dresses : :-Poster: Gaelscot@aol.com : : : :I am still catching up on all the Oscar posts. What do you people have against :pink??? : :Gail Finke : : _________________________________________________________________ : To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com : with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME : _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Susan Carroll-Clark" Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 10:17:34 -0500 Subject: Re: H-COST: Re: oscar dresses - -Poster: "Susan Carroll-Clark" Greetings! >I am still catching up on all the Oscar posts. What do you people have against >pink??? Just personal dislike for me. It doesn't suit my own personality. On other folks, OTOH, it's fine, although you're never going to see me praising a pink gown for its colour. Susan Carroll-Clark _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: The Mulders Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 09:22:29 -0600 Subject: Re: H-COST: Taping for cleavage - -Poster: The Mulders At Miss America, Miss USA, etc..... the girls brought their own packing tape in one of those hand packer tape dispenser. They would bend over and tape it all up then add pads to fill out the dress. This was done years ago, now most have surgery. Ninya Leslie Helms wrote: > -Poster: Leslie Helms > > Penny wrote: > > >I thought Rosie O'Donnell's comment was interesting this morning on the > >Today show. She was talking about how the stylists tape the women's breast > >to give them more clevage on the award shows. I knew the stylists did this > >to models and beauty contestants but actors??? > > Heavens yes! We go through rolls of surgical tape! It's so funny, what > can be common in one area of costume and unfamiliar in another that seems > closely related. For the cleavage-type corseting (1700s) there is nothing > as helpful as surgical tape to get the uplift effect to really show from > the back row! Both of our young female leads in "She Stoops to Conquer" > were dazzlingly flat. Corseting alone could have done nothing with it; we > taped, underpadded, and then corseted furiously to create *any* bosom at all. > > Leslie > _________________________________________________________________ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Kat & Kent Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 10:48:13 -0600 Subject: Re: H-COST: Corsets and Stays on the Frontier - -Poster: Kat & Kent Okay, my two cents worth . First, my dad is a historian (there are over 50 floor to ceiling bookcases in his house!) and I've seen lots and lots of pictures over the years of both slaves and frontier women. While some of them obviously wore stays, some of them you couldn't tell and some of them equally obviously did not wear stays. Now, that said, I agree that you *can* do heavy work while wearing a corset (been there, done that) *but* I've also made fitted dresses that I *didn't* wear any foundation garments in that *did* make others think that I *was* wearing them (fitted cotehardies, Irish front lace dresses, bodices etc). So, it is possible that *some* women did and *some* women didn't. Also, if you could afford to have a picture made, you could probably also afford the materials for a corset...and even if you couldn't, you could probably make a corset using other materials (such as reeds rather than metal or whalebone stays) or even a stayless support garment. Two layers of a good strong cloth makes a bodice that will hold a 38DD in place even while chasing children...I'm sure our ancestors were equally proficient with coming up with solutions that suited their needs/desires to obtain a fashionable line. Kat _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: SAQUEEN@aol.com Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 12:06:35 EST Subject: Re: H-COST: Corsets and Stays on the Frontier - -Poster: SAQUEEN@aol.com Dear List, A different stay story-- common, everyday stays did not survive in abundance for obvious reasons - -they wore out and were thrown away. One such pair did survive and is in the collection at Kenmore House & Gardens (home of George Washington's sister, Betty Fielding) in Fredericksburg, Virginia. Fredericksburg was not the frontier by any means. This 18th century foundation garment is made of common linen and has been extended about 1 1/2 inches around the top. Baleen is in the extension on the front where it was important for the period support and posture. The extra baleen was not purchased but was borrowed from the back channels. In the back channels were wood replacement stays. As the stay had worn holes we could see inside somewhat but we were unable to confirm the baleen "borrowing" until the stays were CTscanned. When you see the originals and "hear" the story they tell, it is another puzzle piece in the historical puzzle. Just a tidbit, since I have no opinion about Oscar gowns. Okay, only one -- pink, cream, and white -- seem to be popular at the turn of the centuries. At least they were popular as the 18th and 19th centuries turned. Maybe, we can add 20th century to that list. Cheers, Sally Queen http://www.sallyqueenassociates.com Calendar 2000: Historic Fashions Turning the Centuries - - available June 1, 1999 _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Hope H. Dunlap" Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 12:48:40 -0500 Subject: RE: H-COST: Nightgown Help:URLS work now - -Poster: "Hope H. Dunlap" Chantal, It would be very easy to trace your pattern from the garment itself. Take some newspaper, brown paper bags glued together, whatever, one piece big enough for the back, one piece big enough for the front. Then lay down your gown and trace around it, first the front, which is easiest, then the back which will be a little harder because cause you'll have to scrunch the front under it so you can trace around it. Keep the skirt spread as if the gathers go all the way to the hem, ie not spread the full width. We'll get to that in a moment. There may be a slight angle to the side of the skirt, which you should capture. Now, after you have done that, take your two pattern pieces and mark the center back and center front into fifths between the two points. The lines at the points will be lines 1 and 5. Line 3 will be at center. Take more paper. Lay your slashed pattern pieces over top, so that the dimension between lines 1 and 5 is double to triple what it was before you slashed. Keep the slashes parallel. Smooth of the curve by eye with a pencil. Or with a metal or plastic French curve tool. Or lay a piece of string down in a smooth line and trace it. Add 1/2 to 5/8 seam allowance at sides of front and back. Cut the back in two pieces with a seam partway upcenter back. You may add seam allowance to your pattern or not here, depending on the fullness you want. Add about 3/4 " seam allowance to the hem of the gown, font and back for a tiny turned hem, more if you want something more decorative. If you plan to put tucks in the lower part of the gown, add them by threes or fives, never one or two or an even number. Add 2x the depth of the tuck times the number of tucks. Sew the center back seam .Above the seam, hem both sides of the garment opening. Sew garment together at side seams. Gather front and back between the points so that it matches the dimension of your existing garment. Bind top of garment with self bias binding. Add spaghetti straps. Gather underbust line between points (the points are some 8" above this). Stabilize by sewing on a ribbon over your gathers . Alternatively, use a spaghetti tube of self fabric. Add buttons at back. Alternatively, sew stretched out elastic to your underbust line between points (front and back, or just back, gathering and stabilizing the front conventionally). This will make the garment ultra comfortable, as long as you're not allergic to elastic (which I am, so for me I minimize it and cover it with a tube.) Spaghetti tubing is easy using a piece of grocery string or cord narrower than the tube. For straps, cut fabric strip on the straight grain, 4 times the width of the finished tube you want to create. Fold in half the long way with your string inside, sticking out both ends. Sew across the short end, turn ninety degrees and keep sewing the whole length. Be sure to catch the string into the stitching at the short end, but nowhere else. Clip corners off the fabric at the short end where you sewed to minimize bulk. Then tug the string at the unsewn end of the tube. It will turn the whole tube inside out lickety-split. It takes a minute to get it started at the sewn end, but once started, it won't take more than another minute to turn the whole tube. Press, clip off the bulky end if you want, and save the string to use again. Bias binding is cut 4 times the width of the finished look you want, and on the bias, not the straight grain so it wraps nicely along the curved edges. Hope this helps. This gown is so simple to draft, that you're better off drafting it than spending time finding a pattern! Hope H. Dunlap - -----Original Message----- From: owner-h-costume@indra.com [mailto:owner-h-costume@indra.com]On Behalf Of Chantal Pecourt Sent: Tuesday, March 23, 1999 12:38 AM To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: H-COST: Nightgown Help:URLS work now - -Poster: Chantal Pecourt Hello Many thanks to everyone who helped me figure out why my images were not working. Little sleep and HTML writing should never go together. It is corrected now. Thank you for your patience!! The original message and the NOW WORKING links are below. >>:Hello all >>: I recently bought a night gown at Victorias Secret. It is unusual in that >>:it is VERY Regency looking. It was, of course, the only one and on sale at >>:that so they no longer sell them. I LOVE it and want to make more. I was >>:wondering if anyone knew of patterns from this era that would help me make >>:a night gown similar to this one? It is a long gown, down to the ankles. I have placed close up pictures of this >>:gown at http://www.idsi.net/~chanty Follow the pointer OR directly at: http://www.idsi.net/~chanty/gown.htm >>: >>: >>:Any help would be appreciated. I want to make lots of them, they are SO >>:comfortable to sleep in. Does Victoria's Secret sell their patterns? >>: >>: Thanks again! ____________________________________________________________ _____ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ End of h-costume-digest V4 #231 ******************************* _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME-DIGEST From ???@??? Wed Mar 24 10:58:49 1999 Received: from mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE (mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE [130.149.4.16]) by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id EAA13585 for ; Wed, 24 Mar 1999 04:26:23 +0100 (MET) Received: from mail.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.15]) by mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10PeJA-0003IX-00; Wed, 24 Mar 1999 04:26:20 +0100 Received: from coal.bg.tu-berlin.de by mail.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Wed, 24 Mar 1999 04:26:08 +0100 Received: from mail.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.15]) by mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10PeIu-0003IU-00; Wed, 24 Mar 1999 04:26:04 +0100 Received: from tubkom.prz.tu-berlin.de by mail.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Wed, 24 Mar 1999 04:25:55 +0100 Received: from mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE (mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE [130.149.4.16]) by tubkom.prz.tu-berlin.de (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id EAA19386 for ; Wed, 24 Mar 1999 04:24:17 +0100 (MEZ) Received: from mail.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.15]) by mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10PeIe-0003IA-00; Wed, 24 Mar 1999 04:25:48 +0100 Received: from server.indra.com by mail.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Wed, 24 Mar 1999 04:25:44 +0100 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.8.5/) with ESMTP id VAA20039; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 21:23:59 -0700 (MST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id UAA01747 for h-costume-digest-outgoing; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 20:24:23 -0700 (MST) Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 20:24:23 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199903240324.UAA01747@indra.com> From: owner-h-costume-digest@indra.com To: h-costume-digest@indra.com Subject: h-costume-digest V4 #232 Reply-To: h-costume-digest@indra.com Errors-To: owner-h-costume-digest@indra.com Precedence: bulk h-costume-digest Tuesday, 23 March 1999 Volume 04 : Number 232 In this issue: Re: H-COST: Oscar dresses Re: H-COST: Nightgown Help H-COST: Men in corsets Re: H-COST: Re: oscar dresses H-COST: Mary Laventure Re: H-COST: 1890s Cutting Guide for Ladies' Garments Re: H-COST: Re: oscar dresses Re: H-COST: Reenactment, Living History, Recreation, etc. Re: H-COST: Whoopie Oscar Theory Re: H-COST: oscar dresses Re: H-COST: Oscar dresses H-COST: Italian Ren. question Re: H-COST: Oscar dresses H-COST: Oscars/L.A. Times ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: MzScahlett@aol.com Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 12:51:31 EST Subject: Re: H-COST: Oscar dresses - -Poster: MzScahlett@aol.com In a message dated 3/22/1999 16:52:55 Pacific Standard Time, nicolaa@earthlink.net writes: << Sally Powell (that's her name, isn't it?) who was nominated for both "Shakespeare" and "Velvet (something or other)," which was the movie the silver atrocity was from, said as much, too. The question I had--were those all the actual costumes from the movies? >> Her name is SANDY Powell, I believe, and I don't think those were the original costumes. I think they were recut for her in large part, (pardon the pun) because the originals were made for various body types, etc. The outfit from Beloved looked like it fit her, as well as Elizabeth's but the others didn't close properly or were otherwise "played around with" to fit her. Not the best way to display the costumes, (although I always enjoy Whoopi). Just think that they could have come up with some method of displaying the outfits that would have really given the billion people watching an idea of what a costumer does, rather than a glimpse into how a costume can be mangled. angil + + + + + + + Angela F. Lazear Costumes & Custom Clothing "Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds" A. Einstein _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Charlene Charette Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 11:52:10 -0600 Subject: Re: H-COST: Nightgown Help - -Poster: Charlene Charette Chantal Pecourt wrote: > I recently bought a night gown at Victorias Secret. It is unusual in that > it is VERY Regency looking. It was, of course, the only one and on sale at > that so they no longer sell them. I love it and want to make more. I was > wondering if anyone knew of patterns from this era that would help me make > a night gown similar to this one? I have placed close up pictures of this You might try Tracy Doyle's "Patterns from Finished Clothes" (it's still in print). It gives instructions on creating patterns from garments without having to take them apart. It does assume that you can figure out how to reconstruct the garment once you have the pieces. - --Charlene - -- Death to all fanatics. _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "KATE M BUNTING" Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 17:59:19 +0000 Subject: H-COST: Men in corsets - -Poster: "KATE M BUNTING" Ninni - I seem to remember humorous references to men wearing corsets (to = give them an elegant figure) in "Pearsons' Magazine" from around 1910, of = which my father inherited some bound volumes. Also, I believe the Prince = Regent wore them a century earlier, when he grew stout. Kate Bunting Library, University of Derby _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: AlbertCat@aol.com Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 15:18:20 EST Subject: Re: H-COST: Re: oscar dresses - -Poster: AlbertCat@aol.com In a message dated 3/23/99 10:11:42 AM Eastern Standard Time, nicolaa@earthlink.net writes: << Just personal dislike for me. It doesn't suit my own personality. On other folks, OTOH, it's fine, although you're never going to see me praising a pink gown for its colour. >> The only color I can't abide more is lavender. Of course there are 10000000000 shades of both pink & lavender & I'm sure many of them I don't loath. Pink looks good on blonds....like my mother who wore every color of pink known to man at sometime in her life. Gweneth's pink was lovely. It looked good with her color & I'm sure if she had stood up staight the bodice would've fitted better. [someone already mentioned that] Purple's ok...as with the Japaneze director [but those big big flowers fought for attention with her delicate features].....but lavender....yuk! _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Sue Shatto Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 16:02:37 -0500 Subject: H-COST: Mary Laventure - -Poster: Sue Shatto I am trying to order some things from Mary's Enhancements Supply.She has a new fax and new phone(messages only) starting April 1. Staples has been trying to fax using both fax numbers and nothing is doing. If someone knows her, could they ask her to call me or email me? Thanks, 301-694-8950 Cordially, Sue Shatto Sue@VictorianMillinery.com http://www.VictorianMillinery.com _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "christianna del Oro" Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 13:06:25 PST Subject: Re: H-COST: 1890s Cutting Guide for Ladies' Garments - -Poster: "christianna del Oro" >From: Margretta de Vries >Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com >To: h-costume@indra.com >Subject: H-COST: 1890s Cutting Guide for Ladies' Garments >> >Several weeks ago, I received in the mail a most amazing brthday >present! It is an Edition 1890 "Instruction Book with Diagrams of >S.T. Taylor's Guide to Cutting Ladies Garments". : would anyone be interested in seeing this guide online? >Margretta de Vries ____________________________________________________________________> Margretta - Great present! I would like to see it online if it's not too much trouble. I can't wait to see it. Thanks for considering it. Christianna del oro Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Lynn Downward Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 13:37:48 -0800 Subject: Re: H-COST: Re: oscar dresses - -Poster: Lynn Downward >-Poster: AlbertCat@aol.com > >In a message dated 3/23/99 10:11:42 AM Eastern Standard Time, >nicolaa@earthlink.net writes: > ><< Just personal dislike for me. It doesn't suit my own personality. On >other > folks, OTOH, it's fine, although you're never going to see me praising a > pink gown for its colour. > >> > >The only color I can't abide more is lavender. > >Of course there are 10000000000 shades of both pink & lavender & I'm sure many >of them I don't loath. > >Pink looks good on blonds....like my mother who wore every color of pink known >to man at sometime in her life. Gweneth's pink was lovely. It looked good with >her color & I'm sure if she had stood up staight the bodice would've fitted >better. [someone already mentioned that] > >Purple's ok...as with the Japaneze director [but those big big flowers fought >for attention with her delicate features].....but lavender....yuk! Thank you for saying that. I don't like pink either though I've been known to wear shades of rose. I thought that for a pink it looked just right on Paltrow. Her coloring is delicate enough to get away with that shade of pink. I also thought the dress fit when she stood up straight. And I also don't like purple - too many over-large women wore it in the 70's and I got very tired of it. But the purple dress on the Japanese director was spectacular. I enjoyed the fact that the dress was slender and very plain to balance the force of the flowers. Did anyone else notice the touches of lavendar wisteria-like flowers dangling underneath the big purple flowers? I thought that touch of a lighter color and movement really added to the dress. Not much of it, but it looked like cherry blossoms floating in the breeze whenever she moved. I liked the look of this year. Too many women have come to the Awards looking trashy for the past few years, and it was nice, in my opinion, to see *ladies* this year. It was a renaissance of Audrey Hepburn and Grace Kelly styles, slim and elegant. I wasn't too keen on the 70's look with the hair hanging down the back. But, hey, the Mod Squad is back and that's the style in that tv program too. Darn, I wasn't going to get involved in this discussion, but here I am. LynnD _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "christianna del Oro" Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 13:36:35 PST Subject: Re: H-COST: Reenactment, Living History, Recreation, etc. - -Poster: "christianna del Oro" >From: Kat & Kent >Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com >To: h-costume@indra.com >Subject: Re: H-COST: Reenactment, Living History, Recreation, etc. >Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 09:58:43 -0600 > > >-Poster: Kat & Kent > >After 22 hours of labor...and *during* a contraction I described the SCA >thusly, "oh! the SCA is a non-profit, educational recreation society >devoted to learning about the middle ages through recreating various >parts of them. Any art or science that was done in the middle ages can be found to be done by someone in the SCA". I blew away the two doctors (this was a high risk pregnancy) and the two neonatal nurses standing by while my husband and my doula (who was also chatelaine of our household)rolled their eyes. OTOH it gave me the break I needed to be able to push my daughter out in the next few contractions rather than having the c-section the more experienced doctor was about to call for (my bp was>150/200). > >Kat > _________________________________________________________________ > And i thought i went to some extremes to recruit people for the SCA YOU WIN!!!! Christianna del oro Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Lady Eleanor Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 14:27:23 -0800 Subject: Re: H-COST: Whoopie Oscar Theory - -Poster: Lady Eleanor I think you are absolutely on the right track. On my TV though the gown with the gold kimono/jacket thing was a dark, dark green velvet, not black. I know, I know...it looked black to me too, at first. I too, think it was the same gown with the gold kimono...which was then replaced with a kind of bed-jacket thing with the large jewelled epaulet shoulder wings...pretty clever! The black dress with the raven feathers was, I *think* an entirely separate gown. The color was truly black on that one, and the neckline was completely different...off the shoulder. I surmised that the green one must have been a halter-style. That's my guess, and a little less than 2 cents worth. :-) Lady Eleanor PiranhaBB@aol.com wrote: > > -Poster: PiranhaBB@aol.com > > My theory on Whoopie's Oscar dresses is that she was wearing a black velvet > sheath that had goodies applied to it; kind of a mix and match idea. The > black feather shoulder thingy, the gold cape/cloak-y looking thing.... Any > other guesses? > > Lisa in LA > _________________________________________________________________ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Lady Eleanor Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 14:46:59 -0800 Subject: Re: H-COST: oscar dresses - -Poster: Lady Eleanor Kara Rodgers wrote: I also loved the > dress that the designer who won for best cotume wore. I didn't *love* it. I thought it was a fascinating design with its inverted collar design and jacket bodice...but the skirt was so odd! It looked *very peculiar* to me, being that it was so rigid...especially when she was standing. A most interesting profile and back view too... but I still thought it was a pretty odd skirt treatment. Just my opinion and you know what those are worth. ;-) Lady Eleanor > > I'm so glad that this list has taken up this thread. It's great to get the > opinions of people who have this much appreciation and > knowledge of clothing! > > Kara > > _________________________________________________________________ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Sylvia Rognstad Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 16:54:23 -0700 (MST) Subject: Re: H-COST: Oscar dresses - -Poster: Sylvia Rognstad Re the Whoopi costumes, was that Elizabeth number actually one of the costumes for the movie, albeit recut for Whoopi? I thought it looked hilarious but not like any Queen Elizabeth dress I've ever seen. Sylvia R Divinity Designs http://www.d-e-designs.com/divinity/ 515 Manhattan Drive, #203 sylvia@netherworld.com Boulder, CO 80303 USA complete catalog on website _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Kristen M. Sieber" Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 16:47:36 -0800 (PST) Subject: H-COST: Italian Ren. question - -Poster: "Kristen M. Sieber" Making a foray into Italian Ren (I usually stick with 14th century England), I have a couple questions: Are buttons down the bodice (decorative or otherwise) appropriate? Can the sleeve "pieces" have trim on their edges? What type of hats and/or head dresses are appropriate? Thanks. == Morgaine of Glastonbury MKA Kristen Morgaine Sieber Barony of Aquaterra Kingdom of An Tir lady_gawain@yahoo.com _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: seamstrix@juno.com Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 18:49:51 -0600 Subject: Re: H-COST: Oscar dresses - -Poster: seamstrix@juno.com That gown was actually a very good reproduction of one of the Armada portraits of Elizabeth. It was not from either movie, that I recall, so it must have been specially made. Since I didn't have an opportunity to inspect it up close for details, all I can say is that it looked terrific on TV. Karen On Tue, 23 Mar 1999 16:54:23 -0700 (MST) Sylvia Rognstad writes: > >-Poster: Sylvia Rognstad > >Re the Whoopi costumes, was that Elizabeth number actually one of the >costumes for the movie, albeit recut for Whoopi? I thought it looked >hilarious but not like any Queen Elizabeth dress I've ever seen. >Sylvia R > > >Divinity Designs >http://www.d-e-designs.com/divinity/ >515 Manhattan Drive, #203 >sylvia@netherworld.com >Boulder, CO 80303 USA complete catalog on >website > > _________________________________________________________________ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Susan Fatemi Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 19:22:56 -0800 Subject: H-COST: Oscars/L.A. Times - -Poster: Susan Fatemi Cathy Harding wrote: > > -Poster: "Cathy Harding" > > The LA times site, while rather awkward has some great pictures including > one of the purple dress... > > http://www.latimes.com/HOME/CALENDARLIVE/MOVIES/OSCAR99/PHOTO/# > > It opens up many windows and the thumbnails on the right will load more > photos. > Cathy (et al.) -- While I can get to most of the photos, the screen for "more photos" won't work properly on this machine/netscape program/whatever. could you possibly post the URL for the "purple dress"?? From the description, I'm wondering if the dress has some basis in traditional Japanese fabric/design. The director/producer's name BTW is Keiko Ibi and her film will be on HBO in June (I just read in the paper) Since no one has mentioned it, I liked the best supporting actress's (Judy Densch?) outfit, from what I could see on the news. I think it had skinny pants under it. Did anyone else notice?? At least she didn't have her boobs on display. I don't know why all those actresses feel compelled to display their endowments -- ok, they're glamour babes, but jeez. Sometimes it's sexier to leave a little to the imagination! One of the most elegant Oscar dresses I remember was Angela Bassett's. It was a "tuxedo" dress, with a full skirt. Very glamorous, elegant, and gee whiz, ladylike! In the "old days", the studios oversaw what actresses wore in public, to premieres, etc. So they always looked nice and fit the image. Maybe they should bring that back as obviously these women (and guys too!) don't know how to dress themselves! Curmudgeonly yours, Susan Fatemi - -- Oh Noh! Kimonos! susanf@netwiz.net http://www.netwiz.net/~susanf _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ End of h-costume-digest V4 #232 ******************************* _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME-DIGEST From ???@??? Wed Mar 24 19:37:31 1999 Received: from mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE (mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE [130.149.4.16]) by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA23418 for ; Wed, 24 Mar 1999 19:34:20 +0100 (MET) Received: from mail.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.15]) by mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10PsTq-00064q-00; Wed, 24 Mar 1999 19:34:18 +0100 Received: from coal.bg.tu-berlin.de by mail.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Wed, 24 Mar 1999 19:34:06 +0100 Received: from mail.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.15]) by mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10PsTb-00064T-00; Wed, 24 Mar 1999 19:34:03 +0100 Received: from tubkom.prz.tu-berlin.de by mail.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Wed, 24 Mar 1999 19:33:54 +0100 Received: from mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE (mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE [130.149.4.16]) by tubkom.prz.tu-berlin.de (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA25712 for ; Wed, 24 Mar 1999 19:32:16 +0100 (MEZ) Received: from mail.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.15]) by mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10PsTK-000647-02; Wed, 24 Mar 1999 19:33:47 +0100 Received: from server.indra.com by mail.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Wed, 24 Mar 1999 19:32:54 +0100 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.8.5/) with ESMTP id MAA26952; Wed, 24 Mar 1999 12:33:53 -0700 (MST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id LAA16131 for h-costume-digest-outgoing; Wed, 24 Mar 1999 11:31:19 -0700 (MST) Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 11:31:19 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199903241831.LAA16131@indra.com> From: owner-h-costume-digest@indra.com To: h-costume-digest@indra.com Subject: h-costume-digest V4 #233 Reply-To: h-costume-digest@indra.com Errors-To: owner-h-costume-digest@indra.com Precedence: bulk h-costume-digest Wednesday, 24 March 1999 Volume 04 : Number 233 In this issue: Re: H-COST: Italian Ren. question Re: H-COST: Oscar dresses Re: H-COST: Taping for cleavage Re: H-COST: Oscars/L.A. Times Re: H-COST: Italian Ren. question Re: H-COST: Italian Ren. question Re: H-COST: Oscar dresses RE: H-COST: Italian Ren. question Re: H-COST: Italian Ren. question Re: H-COST: Oscars/L.A. Times Re: H-COST: Re: oscar dresses ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "David Stamper & Eve Harris" Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 22:53:19 -0500 Subject: Re: H-COST: Italian Ren. question - -Poster: "David Stamper & Eve Harris" >Making a foray into Italian Ren (I usually stick with 14th century >England), I have a couple questions: >Are buttons down the bodice (decorative or otherwise) appropriate? >Can the sleeve "pieces" have trim on their edges? >What type of hats and/or head dresses are appropriate? Okay, I'll take a stab at it. I don't recall buttons being used on Italian Ren bodices. Normally you're seeing back lacings, diagonal side lacings and the occasional front (single) lacing. I don't think I've ever seen an Italian Ren portrait of a woman with buttons on her front. The sleeves can be hooked onto button-like beads at the shoulders, if you like. Trim on sleeve pieces? I've seen cording used to beautiful effect (La Donna Velata by Raphael - gold cord trim on white brocade). However, if you're talking about inch+ wide stuff, once again, I haven't seen it personally. Try Spanish for that. I have seen narrow trim or more likely good embroidery on the necks and wrists of camisae, usually in red or black. Hats and headresses: you're in luck if you have gorgeous long hair (pref. blond). Take what you've got, put it in a pretty bun with all the braids and tendrils and rolls you can think of (no poofy front pieces though, thank you, that would be Victorian) and wind pearl strands and ribbons and stuff through it. Pluck your forehead back (if you're insane). Wear lovely metallic hair nets adorned with gems. Put a gem on a narrow black band across your forehead (can help to keep your elaborate headress in place too). Or you can stick all your hair in a pull-on style ribbony style hat or turban. Or you can wear a lovely heart shaped headress - a soft diamond shape stuffed frame, gemmed, with a mini net sewn in the gap (wear a real net under the damn thing to keep your hair under control). And if you're younger, wear a little beaded cap with your hair braided straight down your back and encased in a fabric tube which is then ribboned etc. That should help a bit. Regards, Eve Harris _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Gwnvr@aol.com Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 00:06:46 EST Subject: Re: H-COST: Oscar dresses - -Poster: Gwnvr@aol.com In a message dated 3/23/99 8:03:24 AM Eastern Standard Time, alysea@juno.com writes: << >Of course >it's hard to keep a straight face while tap dancing an interpretation >of the >soundtrack to "Saving Private Ryan." DUMB! > >> I'm glad I wasn't the only one sitting in total puzzlement at all that stomping and banging of feet. "What the heck was that?..." Is it too much to ask that the movement connect some how to the music??? Very unflattering costuming on them, too. (Altho the Spanish dancer was gorgeous!!!) Jen _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Gwnvr@aol.com Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 00:12:55 EST Subject: Re: H-COST: Taping for cleavage - -Poster: Gwnvr@aol.com In a message dated 3/23/99 10:17:06 AM Eastern Standard Time, mulder@mail.brightok.net writes: << here is nothing > as helpful as surgical tape to get the uplift effect to really show from > the back row! Both of our young female leads in "She Stoops to Conquer" > were dazzlingly flat. Corseting alone could have done nothing with it; we > taped, underpadded, and then corseted furiously to create *any* bosom at >> Please tell me how this is done! Do you attach the padding to the inside of the stays? Details, I want details. (I used to dance in beautiy pageants but never shared a dressing room with the contestants!) dreaming of cleavage, Jen _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: lilinah@grin.net Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 22:34:26 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: H-COST: Oscars/L.A. Times - -Poster: lilinah@grin.net >-Poster: Susan Fatemi > >While I can get to most of the photos, the screen for "more photos" >won't work properly on this machine/netscape program/whatever. >could you possibly post the URL for the "purple dress"?? From >the description, I'm wondering if the dress has some basis in >traditional Japanese fabric/design. Didn't appear to. However, the extreme simplicity of the dress, offset by the relatively small area of complexity in the sleeve caps seems rather Japanese. I believe the Japanese designer Hana Morae used to do dresses somewhat like this (i think she is deceased, but i could be wrong). >At least she didn't have her boobs on display. I don't know >why all those actresses feel compelled to display their >endowments Well, by far most of them are so anorectic looking that they have no endowments to display, viz. Gwenyth Paltrow's lack of flesh anywhere on her body - you can count all her ribs where they connect to her sternum. Compare with Marilyn Monroe. Never skinny, never even thin, yet she wore her flesh luxuriously and voluptuously. Even compared to actresses and models of the 1970's, today's young actresses look distinctly emaciated, wasted even. A number of men i know in their 20's and 30's have been remarking negatively on the fleshlessness and wasted look of so many young female models and actresses. >In the "old days", the studios oversaw what actresses wore >in public, to premieres, etc. So they always looked nice >and fit the image. Maybe they should bring that back as >obviously these women (and guys too!) don't know how to >dress themselves! As far as i recall, for today's Oscar shows, many of the actresses' dresses do not belong to the women wearing them, but are assigned or chosen for the award show. Except for a few exceptions, such as Cher's Bob Mackie dresses, which were designed just for her, i think many of the actesses are wearing dresses they don't really own. That's why they don't get fitted in advance nor have time to practice their "comportment" in their dresses. For example, Helen Hunt's dress was actually not bad looking, just quite unsuited to her. On someone else it could have looked lovely, since it was relatively simple in design, classic even, the only complexity was the bands of rhinestones. With her looks, she needs something less flashy, the dress overpowered her. As for the looks in general, to me this bunch of dresses beat that large number of very boring "little black dresses" from a couple years ago. I'd rather look at a roomful of outrageous dresses than a roomful that all look just the same. And i've always admired Geena Davis - she's always worn some pretty outrageous dresses to the Oscars and carried them very well. BTW, anyone know of a picture that shows all of the outfit that Sandy Powell was wearing? I didn't watch the show, and all the pictures i've found on the web so far just show her head and upper torso. I can see the unusual collar treatment (reminds me of a French couture suit from the 60's or 70's), but i can't see the skirt that so many are commenting on. Curmudgeonly as well, Lilinah _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Diana H Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 22:41:27 -0800 Subject: Re: H-COST: Italian Ren. question - -Poster: Diana H David Stamper & Eve Harris wrote: > -Poster: "David Stamper & Eve Harris" > > >Making a foray into Italian Ren (I usually stick with 14th century > >England), I have a couple questions: > > >Are buttons down the bodice (decorative or otherwise) appropriate? > >Can the sleeve "pieces" have trim on their edges? > >What type of hats and/or head dresses are appropriate? Hello Kristen, You have asked a question about my particular area of costume expertise! I have done a study of Italian Renn women's clothing from 1450-1550 where the styles changed drastically every 10-20 years. If you can narrow down what time frame you are looking at, I will be happy to give you details about how to do the outfit. I might even be able to give you online painting links to show you what the outfit looks like! And Eve responded to your post with some good info which I would like to add some specifics to.... > I don't recall buttons being used on Italian Ren bodices. Normally > you're seeing back lacings, diagonal side lacings and the occasional > front (single) lacing. Please don't forget side lacings. I have found several examples that were hard to see at first but are definitely there! > I don't think I've ever seen an Italian Ren > portrait of a woman with buttons on her front. I haven't seen this that I can think of, either. > The sleeves can be > hooked onto button-like beads at the shoulders, if you like. Depends on what time period you are looking at. For some styles this was done, for others it wasn't. > Trim on sleeve pieces? I've seen cording used to beautiful effect (La > Donna Velata by Raphael - gold cord trim on white brocade). However, > if you're talking about inch+ wide stuff, once again, I haven't seen > it personally. Try Spanish for that. I have seen narrow trim or more > likely good embroidery on the necks and wrists of camisae, usually in > red or black. I believe Eve is talking about stuff around 1500 where the sleeves have "cutouts". And yes, narrow trim or cording was used. For other styles of sleeves, a range of trim sizes and styles could be used. > Hats and headresses: you're in luck if you have gorgeous long hair > (pref. blond). Take what you've got, put it in a pretty bun with all > the braids and tendrils and rolls you can think of (no poofy front > pieces though, thank you, that would be Victorian) and wind pearl > strands and ribbons and stuff through it. Pluck your forehead back (if > > you're insane). This would work from 1450 to about 1490. There are even pictures of little skull-caps and various styles of caps with beading on them. > Wear lovely metallic hair nets adorned with gems. This trend starts in the 1520's. > Put a gem on a narrow black band across your forehead (can help to > keep > your elaborate headress in place too). This style goes with the encased braids from 1495-1508. > Or you can stick all your hair > in a pull-on style ribbony style hat or turban. The turban style started around 1520 and lasted until 1540 or so and was very prevalent. > Or you can wear a > lovely heart shaped headress - a soft diamond shape stuffed frame, > gemmed, with a mini net sewn in the gap (wear a real net under the > damn thing to keep your hair under control). Don't know which style Eve is referring to here. Can you give me a reference point, Eve? > And if you're younger, > wear a little beaded cap with your hair braided straight down your > back and encased in a fabric tube which is then ribboned etc. This was only done from about 1495 to 1508 or so. Hope this will clarify things a little. If you can get back to me about which time frame you are looking at, I would be happy to help you with the specifics of the style! Diana - -- * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * "There are too many mediocre things in life to deal with.....Love shouldn't be one of them." - --Ione Skye in "Dream for an Insomniac" _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "David Stamper & Eve Harris" Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 07:29:11 -0500 Subject: Re: H-COST: Italian Ren. question - -Poster: "David Stamper & Eve Harris" >> Or you can wear a >> lovely heart shaped headress - a soft diamond shape stuffed frame, >> gemmed, with a mini net sewn in the gap (wear a real net under the >> damn thing to keep your hair under control). > >Don't know which style Eve is referring to here. Can you give me a >reference point, Eve? To be honest, I've seen it on French ladies, about 1450. I've been wondering about this hat for a long time - it's been presented to me by many people as Italian Ren and I have yet personally to find a bona fide "Italian" lady wearing it. But it's been hard for me to resist it because it looks so charming with the Italian Ren dress. They are gorgeous. I just have yet to find (dammit) a good picture reference. The only thing I can think of right now is that painted scene of many ladies and gentlemen in white "robes deguisees" - see p. 210 in Boucher. "Hunting with Falcons at the court of Philip the Good". There are two ladies on the right hand middle with similar headresses to what I am describing - but of course they are presumably French. Thank you for putting all my jumbled notes into order for the lady - I couldn't bear not replying but was too tired to break it up. Eve Harris _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Karen J Farris Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 07:22:57 -0500 Subject: Re: H-COST: Oscar dresses - -Poster: Karen J Farris Actually, no, I believe those were the original costumes, hence the fitting problems. Karen Farris On Tue, 23 Mar 1999 12:51:31 EST MzScahlett@aol.com writes: > >-Poster: MzScahlett@aol.com > >In a message dated 3/22/1999 16:52:55 Pacific Standard Time, >nicolaa@earthlink.net writes: > ><< Sally Powell (that's her name, isn't it?) who was nominated for >both > "Shakespeare" and "Velvet (something or other)," which was the movie >the > silver atrocity was from, said as much, too. The question I >had--were those > all the actual costumes from the movies? >> > >Her name is SANDY Powell, I believe, and I don't think those were the >original >costumes. I think they were recut for her in large part, (pardon the >pun) >because the originals were made for various body types, etc. The >outfit from >Beloved looked like it fit her, as well as Elizabeth's but the others >didn't >close properly or were otherwise "played around with" to fit her. > >Not the best way to display the costumes, (although I always enjoy >Whoopi). >Just think that they could have come up with some method of displaying >the >outfits that would have really given the billion people watching an >idea of >what a costumer does, rather than a glimpse into how a costume can be >mangled. > >angil >+ + + + + + + >Angela F. Lazear >Costumes & Custom Clothing > >"Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From >Mediocre Minds" >A. Einstein > _________________________________________________________________ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME > ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Hope H. Dunlap" Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 08:17:23 -0500 Subject: RE: H-COST: Italian Ren. question - -Poster: "Hope H. Dunlap" Try to get your hands on Jaqueline Herald's Book *Renaissance Dress in Italy 1450-1550.* Great book, though you may have to interlibary loan it. It's about 10 years old, and badly in need of a next edition, as it tends to get stolen from wherever it is, its so good. The headgear is highly regional. Garlands of flowers, feathers, gold flowers, pearls etc are the most popular, but there's a lot of other more theatrical choices. Yes, trim on the edges of the sleeve pieces. http://gallery.euroweb.hu/art/ and http://ps.tulane.theatre.tulane.edu/Period.Styles/Costumes/ will provide you with an alternate source of images. Any headgear that was heart-shaped I think would have been a non-Italian Northern Style--anything that looked like it was horned. But the Balzo was a stately large bubble of wicker framing(yes diamonds the way the branches crossed), padded and covered with human hair or fabric and pearls and jewels (from the area north of Venice) which was emblematic of this period. Hope H. Dunlap - -----Original Message----- From: owner-h-costume@indra.com [mailto:owner-h-costume@indra.com]On Behalf Of Kristen M. Sieber Sent: Tuesday, March 23, 1999 7:48 PM To: Historic Costume Subject: H-COST: Italian Ren. question - -Poster: "Kristen M. Sieber" Making a foray into Italian Ren (I usually stick with 14th century England), I have a couple questions: Are buttons down the bodice (decorative or otherwise) appropriate? Can the sleeve "pieces" have trim on their edges? What type of shats and/or head dresses are appropriate? Thanks. == Morgaine of Glastonbury MKA Kristen Morgaine Sieber Barony of Aquaterra Kingdom of An Tir lady_gawain@yahoo.com _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ____________________________________________________________ _____ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Christina Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 09:01:18 -0600 Subject: Re: H-COST: Italian Ren. question - -Poster: Christina Kristen M. Sieber wrote: > -Poster: "Kristen M. Sieber" > > Making a foray into Italian Ren (I usually stick with 14th century > England), I have a couple questions: > Are buttons down the bodice (decorative or otherwise) appropriate? I know of one example with buttons down the bodice. I've never seen a clear enough picture to tell if they are purely decorative or if they are being used to wrap lacings around/lacings go through them, but there are definitely buttons running down the front of the bodice. Has anyone out there seen a clearer picture to know what exactly is happening there? This is the _only_ dress I've seen with buttons. http://gallery.euroweb.hu/art/r/raphael/portrait/m_doni.jpg - -Magdalena _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: kat@grendal.rain.com Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 07:58:10 +0000 Subject: Re: H-COST: Oscars/L.A. Times - -Poster: kat@grendal.rain.com > Well, by far most of them are so anorectic looking that they have no > endowments to display, viz. Gwenyth Paltrow's lack of flesh anywhere on her > body - you can count all her ribs where they connect to her sternum. Gee, I thought she had gained some weight. Her collarbones don't stick out quite as bad as they used to. > Even compared to actresses and models of the 1970's, today's young > actresses look distinctly emaciated, wasted even. A number of men i know in > their 20's and 30's have been remarking negatively on the fleshlessness and > wasted look of so many young female models and actresses. Amen to that. My husband and his friends are always making those kinds of comments. It's not that they want someone who's so rubinesque that they can't get their arms around her, but they don't want to be jabbed (even in the imagination) by those boney bodies. Kat Kat(June Russell) kat@grendal.rain.com Heu! Tintinnuntius meus Sonat! _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Ninni Pettersson Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 19:30:44 +0100 Subject: Re: H-COST: Re: oscar dresses - -Poster: Ninni Pettersson At 21.18 +0100 99-03-23, AlbertCat@aol.com wrote: >.....but lavender....yuk! > Now, now, there's no reason to be nasty about lavender. It can have considerable . . . shocking power . . . on elderly relatives, when you're a 20 year old with mahogany red hair ;-) /Ninni Pettersson _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ End of h-costume-digest V4 #233 ******************************* _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME-DIGEST From ???@??? Thu Mar 25 11:42:00 1999 Received: from mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE (mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE [130.149.4.16]) by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA26392 for ; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 06:40:49 +0100 (MET) Received: from mail.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.15]) by mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10Q2sq-0005NP-00; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 06:40:48 +0100 Received: from coal.bg.tu-berlin.de by mail.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Thu, 25 Mar 1999 06:40:36 +0100 Received: from mail.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.15]) by mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10Q2sb-0005NI-00; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 06:40:33 +0100 Received: from tubkom.prz.tu-berlin.de by mail.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Thu, 25 Mar 1999 06:40:20 +0100 Received: from mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE (mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE [130.149.4.16]) by tubkom.prz.tu-berlin.de (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id GAA29126 for ; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 06:38:45 +0100 (MEZ) Received: from mail.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.15]) by mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10Q2sL-0005NE-00; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 06:40:17 +0100 Received: from server.indra.com by mail.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Thu, 25 Mar 1999 06:40:04 +0100 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.8.5/) with ESMTP id XAA05851; Wed, 24 Mar 1999 23:42:39 -0700 (MST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id WAA06886 for h-costume-digest-outgoing; Wed, 24 Mar 1999 22:38:42 -0700 (MST) Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 22:38:42 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199903250538.WAA06886@indra.com> From: owner-h-costume-digest@indra.com To: h-costume-digest@indra.com Subject: h-costume-digest V4 #234 Reply-To: h-costume-digest@indra.com Errors-To: owner-h-costume-digest@indra.com Precedence: bulk h-costume-digest Wednesday, 24 March 1999 Volume 04 : Number 234 In this issue: Re: H-COST: Italian Ren. question Re: H-COST: Italian Ren. question Re: H-COST: Men in corsets Re: H-COST: Italian Ren. question Re: H-COST: Oscars/L.A. Times Re: H-COST: Oscars/L.A. Times H-COST: more on oscars H-COST: Montreal fabric stores? Re: H-COST: Oscar dresses Re: H-COST: Oscars/L.A. Times H-COST: H-Cost: FO! Victorian Underpinnings, Sumptuously Sized Re: H-COST: more on oscars ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Diana H Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 10:50:23 -0800 Subject: Re: H-COST: Italian Ren. question - -Poster: Diana H David Stamper & Eve Harris wrote: > -Poster: "David Stamper & Eve Harris" > > >> Or you can wear a > >> lovely heart shaped headress - a soft diamond shape stuffed frame, > >> gemmed, with a mini net sewn in the gap (wear a real net under the > >> damn thing to keep your hair under control). > > > >Don't know which style Eve is referring to here. Can you give me a > >reference point, Eve? > > To be honest, I've seen it on French ladies, about 1450. I've been > wondering about this hat for a long time - it's been presented to me > by many people as Italian Ren and I have yet personally to find a bona > > fide "Italian" lady wearing it. But it's been hard for me to resist it > > because it looks so charming with the Italian Ren dress. They are > gorgeous. I just have yet to find (dammit) a good picture reference. > The only thing I can think of right now is that painted scene of many > ladies and gentlemen in white "robes deguisees" - see p. 210 in > Boucher. "Hunting with Falcons at the court of Philip the Good". There > > are two ladies on the right hand middle with similar headresses to > what I am describing - but of course they are presumably French. > > Thank you for putting all my jumbled notes into order for the lady - I > > couldn't bear not replying but was too tired to break it up. > Well, I got my Boucher out and I agree that they headdresses are pretty cool. But I think you were right when you said they were probably French and not Italian. I am not sure if I have seen anyone wear a hat like this with Italian Renn, but to my eye, they really go better with the houppelande style. Actually, now that I think of it, there is an Italian houppelande picture in Boucher! Check out page 204. The picture "Valiant Ladies". These are Italian women wearing circa 1418-1430 style dresses with that headdress you like. So they did wear them, just a little earlier than the Renaissance period! Well, it wasn't quite an epiphany, but close! Diana - -- * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * "There are too many mediocre things in life to deal with.....Love shouldn't be one of them." - --Ione Skye in "Dream for an Insomniac" _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Diana H Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 10:40:58 -0800 Subject: Re: H-COST: Italian Ren. question - -Poster: Diana H Christina wrote: > -Poster: Christina > > Kristen M. Sieber wrote: > > > -Poster: "Kristen M. Sieber" > > > > Making a foray into Italian Ren (I usually stick with 14th century > > England), I have a couple questions: > > Are buttons down the bodice (decorative or otherwise) appropriate? > > I know of one example with buttons down the bodice. I've never seen a > > clear enough picture to tell if they are purely decorative or if they > are being used to wrap lacings around/lacings go through them, but > there > are definitely buttons running down the front of the bodice. Has > anyone out there seen a clearer picture to know what exactly is > happening there? This is the _only_ dress I've seen with buttons. > > http://gallery.euroweb.hu/art/r/raphael/portrait/m_doni.jpg This is a great example of circa 1500 Italian style. It is by Raphael and is very nice. What is going on here is that the "buttons" are actually findings that the lacing is going through. There are similar dresses with fancy findings which hold the lacing cord although they do not look like eyelets as the ones in this portrait do. Just don't ask me how they are attached to the dress!! Check this one out: http://www.nga.gov/cgi-bin/pdimage?41404+0 Click on the close up of the bodice opening and you can see clearly that these are findings with loops to hold the lacing cord. I realize that this is 1475, but this one is from 1505 and has the same thing going on: http://www.nga.gov/cgi-bin/pdimage?500+0 Again, click on the close-up of the bodice opening and you will see the findings. I have made a dress like this and what I did was find a person who would sell me only the "eyes" of a two piece clasp. It wasn't cheap, but the look is fabulous! Hope this helps answer your question! Diana - -- * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * "There are too many mediocre things in life to deal with.....Love shouldn't be one of them." - --Ione Skye in "Dream for an Insomniac" _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Vincent Ho Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 11:19:28 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: H-COST: Men in corsets - -Poster: Vincent Ho On Tue, 23 Mar 1999, KATE M BUNTING wrote: > > -Poster: "KATE M BUNTING" > > Ninni - I seem to remember humorous references to men wearing corsets (to give them an elegant figure) in "Pearsons' Magazine" from around 1910, of which my father inherited some bound volumes. Also, I believe the Prince Regent wore them a century earlier, when he grew stout. > > Kate Bunting > Library, University of Derby Anyone has information concerning corsets for men, such as patterns, or how it is worn...for example, what is a cumberland corset, and what is a Brummel bodice? - -- Vincent B. Ho hbv@tsoft.com - -- When I dream that you love me, you'll surely forgive; Extend not your anger to sleep; For in visions alone your affections can live,-- I rise and it leaves me to weep. George Gordon, Lord Byron (1788-1824) _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Frank&Tracy Thallas JR" Date: Wed, 24 Mar 99 13:33:38 PST Subject: Re: H-COST: Italian Ren. question - -Poster: "Frank&Tracy Thallas JR" I've seen this one repro'd large in one book on Raphael, but the book was old and kind of faded - it did seem there were laces wrapped around them, but it was hard to tell. There were no signs I could see = of buttonholes or lacing holes. Liadain > I know of one example with buttons down the bodice. I've never seen = a > clear enough picture to tell if they are purely decorative or if they > are being used to wrap lacings around/lacings go through them, but ther= e > are definitely buttons running down the front of the bodice. Has > anyone out there seen a clearer picture to know what exactly is > happening there? This is the _only_ dress I've seen with buttons. > > http://gallery.euroweb.hu/art/r/raphael/portrait/m_doni.jpg > > > > -Magdalena > > _________________________________________________________________ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME > _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Laurie L. Kittle" Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 17:40:40 -0500 Subject: Re: H-COST: Oscars/L.A. Times - -Poster: "Laurie L. Kittle" At 10:34 PM 3/23/99 -0800, you wrote: > >>could you possibly post the URL for the "purple dress"?? From >>the description, I'm wondering if the dress has some basis in >>traditional Japanese fabric/design. > >Didn't appear to. However, the extreme simplicity of the dress, offset by >the relatively small area of complexity in the sleeve caps seems rather >Japanese. I believe the Japanese designer Hana Morae used to do dresses >somewhat like this (i think she is deceased, but i could be wrong). I thought that the "purple dress" looked very much like the dresses that Imelda Marcos used to wear, which (I think) were based on traditional dresses from the Phillipines. Laurie _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "TC Carstensen" Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 19:26:57 -0500 Subject: Re: H-COST: Oscars/L.A. Times - -Poster: "TC Carstensen" I agree that it is a very bad thing for women who aren't naturally ultra thin to try to be that way. However, I would like to remind everyone that some of us on the list are built that way by virtue of genetics (and I'd be willing to bet that most of us don't want to be!). Please try to be a little more diplomatic if you feel compelled to make a negative comment about that body type. Getting called "skeletal" and being told that men find you unattractive gets old really fast. TC Carstensen _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Cathy Harding" Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 16:39:01 -0800 Subject: H-COST: more on oscars - -Poster: "Cathy Harding" <> http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/e/AP-Oscar-Fashion.html makes you wonder if we saw the same event as they did. Cathy _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Sheridan Alder Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 18:10:24 -0600 Subject: H-COST: Montreal fabric stores? - -Poster: Sheridan Alder Greetings: Can anyone recommend any fabric stores in Montreal, Quebec.? About ten years ago Joy fabrics used to have an impressive selection, but that's a while back. I'm particularly interested in silks. My husand is attending a workshop there, and I'd thought I'd tag along for a cheap holiday. I'll be leaving this Sunday, March 28th, so I don't have a lot of time to plan. Any suggestions will be greatly appreciated. Thanks, Sheridan _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Margo Anderson Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 12:28:05 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: H-COST: Oscar dresses - -Poster: Margo Anderson > >That gown was actually a very good reproduction of one of the Armada >portraits of Elizabeth. Actually, it had elements of several of the portraits based on the Armada Portrait. Someone's copy of QE'S WU got a workout. I do think it was custom made for the show. It will probably go into Western Costume's stock and rent for the the next 32 years. What I liked best about this costume was that it was a superb example of a historically accurate costume with subtle modifications for a theatrical purpose--in this case, humor, and a big hall. The oversized pearls and the extra glittery embroidery--or was it jeweling-- were perfectly chosen. the only problem was that the heart shaped stand up collar didn't have enough support, and it wobbled distractingly. I love Whoopie Goldberg no matter what she wears. I've said for years that if they made a movie of my life, I'd like Whoopie to play me. Of course, there's a little problem...but the white makeup she wore for this show proves it's possible! Margo Anderson _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Lynn Downward Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 15:46:00 -0800 Subject: Re: H-COST: Oscars/L.A. Times - -Poster: Lynn Downward >-Poster: "Laurie L. Kittle" > >At 10:34 PM 3/23/99 -0800, you wrote: >> >>>could you possibly post the URL for the "purple dress"?? From >>>the description, I'm wondering if the dress has some basis in >>>traditional Japanese fabric/design. >> >>Didn't appear to. However, the extreme simplicity of the dress, offset by >>the relatively small area of complexity in the sleeve caps seems rather >>Japanese. I believe the Japanese designer Hana Morae used to do dresses >>somewhat like this (i think she is deceased, but i could be wrong). > >I thought that the "purple dress" looked very much like the >dresses that Imelda Marcos used to wear, which (I think) were >based on traditional dresses from the Phillipines. > >Laurie > The purple dress's sleeves are made differently from the traditional Phillippine dresses. They have many pleats to make the sleeve stand up and out. Or they use a netting. The Japanese dress seemed to be a regular sleeve; it just had those huge flowers on the sleeves, giving the same outline. I just checked this with my office mate from the Phillippines whose favorite dress from the Oscars was the purple dress. LynnD _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Margo Anderson Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 13:11:08 -0800 (PST) Subject: H-COST: H-Cost: FO! Victorian Underpinnings, Sumptuously Sized - -Poster: Margo Anderson Oh My Gosh, I actually finished something! Two somethings, actually, a corset and a cage crinoline. This was something of a challenge because I didn't have time to mail order any supplies or patterns, so I had to work with what I had on hand and could purchase here in the boonies. . I used the basic shape of the 1840's corset on pg 77 of Corsets and Crinolines. Since I am at least twice the size of the pattern given, I had a dreadful time grading the pattern up and gave up in despair. My husband convinced me to try a duct tape mold of my body. We did it with me wearing a Frederick's of Hollywood pushup bra to get the right degree of lift, them he put the tape on me pulling it tight at the waist to get the desired shape. Then we drew the seam lines on it and cut it off me to produce a pattern. I really didn't think it would work, but it did. The corset is made of putty colored brocaded taffeta, with a tiny all over floral pattern. I fused the pieces to a cotton interfacing and flat lined them with cotton twill. While the original pattern is only lightly boned on the seams, that just doesn't work on my body type, so I made it fully boned. I used flat steels except for the curved seams at the side fronts, where I used a substitute for spiral boning I've read about--weed whacker line! I used two pieces of the heaviest kind, side by side, and they have the same feel as spirals. All the bones are put into channels made of commercial bone casing. I recycled a busk from an old bad corset. Unfortunately I had a costuming tragedy while building it. While I was taking out one of the gusset seams to refit it, it RIPPED down an inch from the point of the gusset. I was able to machine darn it back together, and cover it by running a band of alecon lace (leftover from my bridal store days) along the curved front seams. I love this corset!!! It only gives me 2" of compression, but that's all it needs. It takes my 90 extra pounds and pushes them around till I look like Lillian Russell! It's also extremely comfortable. It's a bit too high under the arms, but I can wait till I have more time to fix it. The corset took about 20 hours to make, a lot of it in fiddling with the pattern. I'd call this a difficult project, one that takes a good degree of skill with a sewing machine to keep all the stitching straight and even. The cage crinoline is based on the "small crinoline" from Hunnisett. I enlarged it a bit for proportion, to about 36" diameter. I had enough plastic covered hoop wire to do the exposed hoops, but not the ones in the bag, so those are lumber banding. Hunnisett recommends using something called "curtain tape" which has slots for the hoops. I couldn't find this stuff, so I used twill tape and pinned across the wires. this was hard because the pins kept pulling out while I worked on it. Toward the end of the project, it occured to me that I should have put safety pins at the appropriate points and run the hoops through them. Once I had the hoops marked for placement, I used an electric drill to make holes between the wires on the hooping, and an awl to make holes in the twill tape. I fastened them together with small leatherworking rivets. I like the size of this hoop very much,and it was easy to make. It took less than three hours, even with two little kids in the room. It does seem to move a lot, though, much more than hooped petticoats I've worn. I'm hoping that the weight of skirts on top will help. I'm not in love with the plastic covered boning or the cotton-poly sheeting I used for the bag. I'd like to remake it with more authentic materials. Tonight, we do another tape wrap over the corset to make a pattern for the dress bodice. I'd ordinarily drape a muslin, but my only available helper is my husband, and while he's phobic about pins and needles, he quite enjoys wrapping me in tape! Look for the report on the dress in the next few days--I've got to wear this on Saturday. EEK! Margo Anderson _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Kat & Kent Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 23:19:38 -0600 Subject: Re: H-COST: more on oscars - -Poster: Kat & Kent Cathy Harding wrote: > > <> > > http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/e/AP-Oscar-Fashion.html > > makes you wonder if we saw the same event as they did. I don't know if I want to register just to see this...what was different about it? Kat _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ End of h-costume-digest V4 #234 ******************************* _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME-DIGEST From ???@??? Fri Mar 26 10:54:16 1999 Received: from mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE (mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE [130.149.4.14]) by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA05169 for ; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 22:29:26 +0100 (MET) Received: from mail.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.15]) by mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10QHgr-0001nV-03; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 22:29:25 +0100 Received: from coal.bg.tu-berlin.de by mail.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Thu, 25 Mar 1999 22:29:14 +0100 Received: from tubkom.prz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.62.9] ident=root) by mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10QHgc-0001nN-00; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 22:29:10 +0100 Received: from mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE (mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE [130.149.4.14]) by tubkom.prz.tu-berlin.de (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA04731 for ; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 22:27:35 +0100 (MEZ) Received: from mail.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.15]) by mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10QHga-0001nJ-00; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 22:29:08 +0100 Received: from server.indra.com by mail.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Thu, 25 Mar 1999 22:28:21 +0100 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.8.5/) with ESMTP id PAA24837; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 15:22:23 -0700 (MST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id OAA18747 for h-costume-digest-outgoing; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 14:15:17 -0700 (MST) Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 14:15:17 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199903252115.OAA18747@indra.com> From: owner-h-costume-digest@indra.com To: h-costume-digest@indra.com Subject: h-costume-digest V4 #235 Reply-To: h-costume-digest@indra.com Errors-To: owner-h-costume-digest@indra.com Precedence: bulk Status: O h-costume-digest Thursday, 25 March 1999 Volume 04 : Number 235 In this issue: Re: H-COST: H-Cost: FO! Victorian Underpinnings, Sumptuously Sized H-COST: Re:H-Cost: FO! Victorian Underpinnings, Sumptuously Sized Re: H-COST: Oscar dresses Re: H-COST: Oscars/L.A. Times Re: H-COST: Oscar dresses H-COST: Regia Anglorum site url H-COST: It. Renn. Embroidery books H-COST: emaciated actresses H-COST: OT: Oscar dancing H-COST: emaciated actresses, 2 Re: H-COST: gap in pre-19th corsets Re: H-COST: Italian Ren. question Re: H-COST: emaciated actresses Re: H-COST: gap in pre-19th corsets H-COST: Corset Survey: Before/After? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Kat & Kent Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 23:21:49 -0600 Subject: Re: H-COST: H-Cost: FO! Victorian Underpinnings, Sumptuously Sized - -Poster: Kat & Kent Congrats!! Sounds great! I'm wondering exactly what you used for boning (not having a handy source of corset-making supplies and being unsure if I want to spend a lot of money ordering stuff). My husband asked if the weed wacker line wouldn't be too flexible to hold up. Kat _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Harvey Georgia Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 16:38:33 +1100 Subject: H-COST: Re:H-Cost: FO! Victorian Underpinnings, Sumptuously Sized - -Poster: Harvey Georgia Margo - it sounds *fabulous*!! I'm still waiting to make my first corset (had all the bones/busk for a year now) so I'm rather envious :-) Congratulations on a beautiful sounding FO. Georgia _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: MzScahlett@aol.com Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 01:24:34 EST Subject: Re: H-COST: Oscar dresses - -Poster: MzScahlett@aol.com In a message dated 3/24/1999 04:26:54 Pacific Standard Time, alysea@juno.com writes: << Actually, no, I believe those were the original costumes, hence the fitting problems. >> Was there a black & white w/ color version of the "Pleasantville" dress? I think that the shakespearean man's costume may have been pulled for her, but I don't think she and Cate Blanchett were ever wearing the same outfit. I think that they were at least in part, made for the show. Is there a way to find out for sure? angil Angela F. Lazear Costumes & Custom Clothing "Great Spirits Will Always Encounter Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds" Albert Einstein _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: MzScahlett@aol.com Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 01:27:52 EST Subject: Re: H-COST: Oscars/L.A. Times - -Poster: MzScahlett@aol.com In a message dated 3/24/1999 07:57:51 Pacific Standard Time, kat@grendal.rain.com writes: << Amen to that. My husband and his friends are always making those kinds of comments. It's not that they want someone who's so rubinesque that they can't get their arms around her, but they don't want to be jabbed (even in the imagination) by those boney bodies. >> Amen, bring us more Kate Winsletts. Women with figures rather than starving Barbies. angil _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: MzScahlett@aol.com Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 01:30:22 EST Subject: Re: H-COST: Oscar dresses - -Poster: MzScahlett@aol.com In a message dated 3/24/1999 16:49:50 Pacific Standard Time, margo@directcon.net writes: << Of course, there's a little problem...but the white makeup she wore for this show proves it's possible! >> Yes ma'am! She's so talented she's played an old white guy while also playing a 30+ ish black woman! I love Whoopi too. She's so real. angil _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Heather Law Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 03:10:51 -0800 Subject: H-COST: Regia Anglorum site url - -Poster: Heather Law Hi, (Xcuse the cross-post) If any of you have gotten a 404 clicking a Regia Anglorum site (British reenactors), their new url is http://www.regia.org Heather _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: cnevin@caci.co.uk Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 13:38:55 -0000 Subject: H-COST: It. Renn. Embroidery books - -Poster: cnevin@caci.co.uk Hi, I've had a request for help, but this isn't really an area I know anything about. Can anyone help with some pointers to embroidery/dress books or primary texts? Thanks in advance, Tina Nevin ---------- From: Tina Munro I have been working on an Italian Renaissance dress (Red satin with white chemise) and really want to do period embroidery for decoration. After looking at pictures and art from the appropriate time, I have deduced some basics for what I might do but I have not been able to find definitive documentation. Can you help? Any suggestions you might have would be extremely welcome and appreciated. _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Gaelscot@aol.com Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 09:42:11 EST Subject: H-COST: emaciated actresses - -Poster: Gaelscot@aol.com I agree with Lilinah! At least half the young acresses look as if they need some IV feeding, and fast. I am mystified by this look, which is SO unattractive. And the women that look this way seem to wear almost nothing, so that you can see just how thin they are. They look like heroin addicts to me. I was surprised at how many of the women in the audience -- some of them nominees -- were horribly thin, with chopped-off hair hanging in their faces and dresses (obviously expensive ones) that left most of their bony torsos showing. This is a fashionable look, as I find riffling through fashion magazines at the library. A strange, symbiotic relationship between too-thin women and hideous clothes. Gail Finke _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Gaelscot@aol.com Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 09:36:36 EST Subject: H-COST: OT: Oscar dancing - -Poster: Gaelscot@aol.com I know this is off-topic, but since people are discussing it ... that dance number was awful, although I was blown away by the dancers themselves. Wish I could have seen them in a decent choreography. I just sat there watching it, dumbfounded, thinking of how much I hate Debbie Allen's choreography, but also wondering if this is maybe the state of modern dance today -- it's been bout 6 years since I watched any, although I used to watch frequently. Anyway, I heard a review of the show the next day on "All Things Considered," in which Terry Gross and the reviewer laughed uproarously over the number. I was glad to hear that I wasn't the only one. As for the costumes -- what was with those? The dancers all looked as menacing as they could (they were good, so it was pretty menacing) and they wore the kind of awful creations I used to see frequently on MTV a couple of years ago, before I got rid of cable TV. Supposed to be based on ghetto street wear, I think. The woman dancer's was the worst. Since when did it become attractive to put dancers in ugly underwear? One side of those boxer-length briefs kept flipping up to her hip, so it looked even worse and must have been uncomfortable. Gail Finke _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Gaelscot@aol.com Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 09:51:37 EST Subject: H-COST: emaciated actresses, 2 - -Poster: Gaelscot@aol.com I highly recommend a book called "The Body Project" that came out last year. I can't remember the author's name. It's a social history of young girls for about the last 150 years, and how they think about their bodies. Lots of stuff about corsets in it, and lots of quotes from real diaries. The author, a feminist who tries to be objective but can't hide her biases all the time, has the usual wrong ideas about corsets being extremely restrictive, etc. But her point is a good one -- she says that girls who wore corsets were actually less restricted in their PERSONAL behavior, because there was a societal bias against thinking too much of your own appearance (vanity) and toward developing your character. A girl in the 1850s who wanted to improve herself, for instance, might make a list of goals like this: be kinder to others, stop gossiping, read poetry. A girl of the 1990s is likely to make this list: lose 10 pounds, find a better lipstick color, work out an extra 1/2-hour. A 1990s girl, the thesis runs, sees her body as a project she must work on at all times. Apropos to the thin thing, she says that in the 1970s every girl wanted to be thin, which meant extensive dieting, watching calories, etc. But the 1990s say you are supposed to be thin and fit, which means all that dieting plus strict exercise. And of course the 1850s girl was not supposed to be alluring, while the 1990s girl is, apparently, supposed to be sexy from her early teens. It's a pretty devastating book that makes you want to go out and mentor young girls. But I think it does explain this wasted, yet toned look we saw at the Oscars. What a waste of time and energy. Gail Finke _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Susannah Eanes" Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 08:06:54 PST Subject: Re: H-COST: gap in pre-19th corsets - -Poster: "Susannah Eanes" > > > >Was there usually a gap in pre-19th century corsets when >they were laced properly? I have thought there weren't, as >the corsets were probably almost always custom made then, >but some people have claimed the lacing gap is essential for >the comfortable wear and has been around since very early >corsets. > > TIA, > > >-- >-------(c) 1999--------------* lynoure@tuug.org * >Ella Lynoure Rajamaki--------* http://www.tuug.org/~lynoure * > Lynoure, The gap made for a custom fit every time you lace the corset or stays. Given that we all expand and shrink during the month all through the torso area, especially at the breasts and waistline/stomach, this was essential for good fit. The normal allowance was at least two to four inches. Without it, the corset is too big and will gap open at the top, it will not support the bustline properly, and it may even tend to slide down too far towards the hips. All in all, most uncomfortable and non-functional. Ref: Corsets and Crinolines, Norah Waugh, The History of Underwear, by the Cunningtons, Saundra Altman's corset pattern historical notes, and many others. Sorry, I can't be more specific right now because I am at work and my library is at home. If you need specific page #s and refs please let me know and I will be happy to look them up again. Susannah Eanes The Tailor's Measure "We are only the trustees for those who come after us." --William Morris Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: cynthia j ley Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 12:51:18 EST Subject: Re: H-COST: Italian Ren. question - -Poster: cynthia j ley Speaking of Italian... I've seen dresses which are essentially very simple A-line dresses, falling from the shoulder to the feet, and sleeveless. There is no fitted bodice, but often a triangular bodice piece that looks like an inverted triangle and tags at the armscye for tying on sleeves. I was wondering if anyone here might know the following: 1. What shape was the armscye? Round, ovoid, or...? 2. Any ideas on these stomachers? What were they made of? Were they decorated? if so, with what? 3. Were the gowns laced in the back? Were they laced at all? Thank you for your help! Arlys ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Linda Lassman" Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 11:49:21 CST Subject: Re: H-COST: emaciated actresses - -Poster: "Linda Lassman" > -Poster: Gaelscot@aol.com > > I agree with Lilinah! At least half the young acresses look as if they > need some IV feeding, and fast. I am mystified by this look, which is SO > unattractive. And the women that look this way seem to wear almost > nothing, so that you can see just how thin they are. They look like heroin > addicts to me. I was surprised at how many of the women in the audience -- > some of them nominees -- were horribly thin, with chopped-off hair hanging > in their faces and dresses (obviously expensive ones) that left most of > their bony torsos showing. This is a fashionable look, as I find riffling > through fashion magazines at the library. A strange, symbiotic > relationship between too-thin women and hideous clothes. > > Gail Finke > I remember hearing, in a documentary about the evolution of the "ideal" female form several years ago, that the attractiveness of the ultra-thin woman arose after the freeing of concentration camp survivors at the end of WW2. And if *that* doesn't say something about the healthiness of the obsession, I don't know what does! - - Linda Lassman Winnipeg, Manitoba _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Ella Lynoure Rajamaki" Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 19:32:31 +2 Subject: Re: H-COST: gap in pre-19th corsets - -Poster: "Ella Lynoure Rajamaki" On 25 Mar 99, at 8:06, Susannah Eanes wrote: > The gap made for a custom fit every time you lace the corset or stays. > Given that we all expand and shrink during the month all through the > torso area, especially at the breasts and waistline/stomach, this was > essential for good fit. The normal allowance was at least two to four > inches. Without it, the corset is too big and will gap open at the top, > it will not support the bustline properly, and it may even tend to slide > down too far towards the hips. All in all, most uncomfortable and > non-functional. I have always been in the impression that 2 to 4 inch gap is there before the corset is laced (that is, the corset is 2 to 4 inches smaller than the actual unlaced waist measurement). Have I been mistaken and that was the size of the gap after lacing? If so, how much smaller than the natural waist measurement were the corsets? > Saundra Altman's corset pattern historical notes, Where can one get these? - -- - -------(c) 1999--------------* lynoure@tuug.org * Ella Lynoure Rajamaki--------* http://www.tuug.org/~lynoure * _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Susannah Eanes" Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 11:11:04 PST Subject: H-COST: Corset Survey: Before/After? - -Poster: "Susannah Eanes" Kind readers of the list, A conversation off-list got me curious about something, so I thought I would try to compile a private survey based on modern women who are used to corseting on a pretty regular basis --say at the very minimum, at least three or more times a month for at least four to five or more hours at a time. If you are interested in participating, please e-mail me privately with the following information: Your age range --teens, 20s, 30s, 40s, 50s, 60s, 70s and older Your time period --1500s, 1600s, 1700s, 1800s, 1900s Your modern-day size range --Junior/Petite, Medium/Reg. Misses incl. Tall, or Queen Your build --small, medium, or large-boned Your overall muscle tone --soft, medium, or firmly toned Your before corseting waist measurement standing erect with good posture but muscles relaxed (not holding that tummy in!) measured on bare skin Your after corseting waist measurement standing, laced comfortably for normal activities (not to get into that ball gown!) measured over the corset I will compile the numbers I get and post the results. The premise is, that smaller, more firmly toned people cannot corset down and compress the flesh as much as larger people with softer flesh, so they end up with less of a difference between their before and after corset measurements than larger people, who can usually have greater differences before and after corset measurement. I forgot where I read this and wanted to try and see if it holds up in practice. Thanks for your willingness to participate! Susannah Eanes The Tailor's Measure "We are only the trustees for those who come after us." --William Morris Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ End of h-costume-digest V4 #235 ******************************* _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME-DIGEST From ???@??? Fri Mar 26 10:54:18 1999 Received: from mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE (mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE [130.149.4.14]) by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA08110 for ; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 09:15:14 +0100 (MET) Received: from mail.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.15]) by mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10QRlo-0007kQ-00; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 09:15:12 +0100 Received: from coal.bg.tu-berlin.de by mail.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Fri, 26 Mar 1999 09:14:59 +0100 Received: from mail.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.15]) by mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10QRlX-0007k8-00; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 09:14:55 +0100 Received: from tubkom.prz.tu-berlin.de by mail.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Fri, 26 Mar 1999 09:14:41 +0100 Received: from mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE (mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE [130.149.4.14]) by tubkom.prz.tu-berlin.de (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA07521 for ; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 09:13:05 +0100 (MEZ) Received: from mail.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.15]) by mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10QRlG-0007jv-00; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 09:14:38 +0100 Received: from server.indra.com by mail.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Fri, 26 Mar 1999 09:13:34 +0100 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.8.5/) with ESMTP id CAA23221; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 02:20:27 -0700 (MST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id BAA12432 for h-costume-digest-outgoing; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 01:12:07 -0700 (MST) Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 01:12:07 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199903260812.BAA12432@indra.com> From: owner-h-costume-digest@indra.com To: h-costume-digest@indra.com Subject: h-costume-digest V4 #236 Reply-To: h-costume-digest@indra.com Errors-To: owner-h-costume-digest@indra.com Precedence: bulk h-costume-digest Friday, 26 March 1999 Volume 04 : Number 236 In this issue: H-COST: Re: emaciated deal Re: H-COST: emaciated actresses Re: H-COST: gap in pre-19th corsets Re: H-COST: Re: oscar dresses Re: H-COST: Italian Ren. question RE: H-COST: emaciated actresses H-COST: Footwear Update Re: H-COST: emaciated actresses Re: H-COST: emaciated actresses RE: H-COST: emaciated actresses Re: H-COST: emaciated actresses H-COST: Chatelaines Re: H-COST: Italian Ren. question Re: H-COST: Chatelaines ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Marsha J. Hamilton" Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 17:43:31 -0500 Subject: H-COST: Re: emaciated deal - -Poster: "Marsha J. Hamilton" >I remember hearing, in a documentary about the evolution of the "ideal" >female form several years ago, that the attractiveness of the ultra-thin woman >arose after the freeing of concentration camp survivors at the end of WW2. I find a direct relationship hard to believe since the Duchess of Windsor ("You can never be too rich or too thin.") and others in the 1930s were already promoting the ultra-thin look. I venture the opinion that the straight silhouette of the 1920s started it, since every bulge and pound showed. With the corset-less, underwear-less satin bias-cut gowns of the early 1930s, women had to be very thin or extremely fit to look sleek, not lumpy. Plus the tendancy of film and photos to add pounds must have made the movie community extremely anxious to be on the under-sized side to give the proper look on screen. I have never heard anything but horror associated with the many victims of starvation in WWII and other conflicts. I find the suggestion tacky. I also support the earlier comment that people come in all sizes. I can't keep weight off but I've known people who can't keep weight on (even eating milkshakes all day). Sigh. Thin isn't necessarily obsession. Marsha - to whom being too thin has never been a problem. _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "R.L. Shep" Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 16:46:05 -0800 Subject: Re: H-COST: emaciated actresses - -Poster: "R.L. Shep" I would think that seeing pictures of survivors of concentration camps would make people want to put on some pounds and look comfortable. I know that after caring for people with AIDS that I feel a lot better about having some padding on me! ~!~ R.L.Shep http://www.mcn.org/e/fsbks - ---------- >From: "Linda Lassman" >To: h-costume@indra.com >Subject: Re: H-COST: emaciated actresses >Date: Thu, Mar 25, 1999, 9:49 AM > > >-Poster: "Linda Lassman" > >> -Poster: Gaelscot@aol.com >> >> I agree with Lilinah! At least half the young acresses look as if they >> need some IV feeding, and fast. I am mystified by this look, which is SO >> unattractive. And the women that look this way seem to wear almost >> nothing, so that you can see just how thin they are. They look like heroin >> addicts to me. I was surprised at how many of the women in the audience - -- >> some of them nominees -- were horribly thin, with chopped-off hair hanging >> in their faces and dresses (obviously expensive ones) that left most of >> their bony torsos showing. This is a fashionable look, as I find riffling >> through fashion magazines at the library. A strange, symbiotic >> relationship between too-thin women and hideous clothes. >> >> Gail Finke >> >I remember hearing, in a documentary about the evolution of the "ideal" >female form several years ago, that the attractiveness of the ultra-thin woman >arose after the freeing of concentration camp survivors at the end of WW2. >And if *that* doesn't say something about the healthiness of the obsession, I >don't know what does! > >- Linda Lassman > Winnipeg, Manitoba > > _________________________________________________________________ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME > _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Julie Adams Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 17:09:04 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: H-COST: gap in pre-19th corsets - -Poster: Julie Adams >>I have always been in the impression that 2 to 4 inch gap is >there before the corset is laced (that is, the corset is 2 to 4 >inches smaller than the actual unlaced waist measurement). >Have I been mistaken and that was the size of the gap after >lacing? You've been mistaken. The gap should be there after lacing. >If so, how much smaller than the natural waist >measurement were the corsets? Mine are 4 inches. My waist measurement does not decrease after lacing, though it *Looks* like it does. Most 19th c corsets make your shape rounder from front to back, but mine are based on an 1880s corset style. The 1860's corsets are more likely to pinch in your waist, but other measurements might then increase (the mass must go somewhere...). Julie Adams _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Danielle Nunn Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 20:12:34 -0500 Subject: Re: H-COST: Re: oscar dresses - -Poster: Danielle Nunn Greetings, >Pink looks good on blonds....like my mother who wore every color of pink >known to man at sometime in her life. Well, that comment is just begging to be disagreed with. ;) My hair is naturally golden blonde and pink looks TERRIBLE on me. Mind you my skin is also rather sallow (hence I dyed my hair red and it looks much better). I also have an aversion to pink due to a English grandmother who spent my entire childhood trying to turn me into "a little lady" and kept attempting to stuff me into frilly pink frocks. Needless to say I would have much rather been climbing trees or something of that nature. Just my two cents, Danielle _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Danielle Nunn Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 22:21:19 -0500 Subject: Re: H-COST: Italian Ren. question - -Poster: Danielle Nunn Greetings, >To be honest, I've seen it on French ladies, about 1450. I've been >wondering about this hat for a long time - it's been presented to me >by many people as Italian Ren and I have yet personally to find a bona >fide "Italian" lady wearing it. But it's been hard for me to resist it >because it looks so charming with the Italian Ren dress. They are >gorgeous. I just have yet to find (dammit) a good picture reference. Although this isn't my area, how about "The Marraige of Boccaccio Adimari", Mid-fifteenth century, Florence. Plate #399 (pg. 210) in Boucher. I admit that the picture is small but, I have seen it larger elsewhere. I think that some of the things are similar to what Eve has in mind. Also in Davenport on page 269, fig. 739 there are Italian women wearing their hair and/or hats which look something like what your looking for. It is dated 1452-66, Piero della Francesca "Arrival of the Queen of Sheba." Does this help? Cheers, Danielle _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Gregory Stapleton" Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 23:18:43 -0500 Subject: RE: H-COST: emaciated actresses - -Poster: "Gregory Stapleton" To sum it all up, I think the term is Anorexia nervosa. Gregory Stapleton / Gawain Kilgore > -Poster: "Linda Lassman" > > > -Poster: Gaelscot@aol.com > > > > I agree with Lilinah! At least half the young acresses look as if they > > need some IV feeding, and fast. I am mystified by this look, which is SO > > unattractive. And the women that look this way seem to wear almost > > nothing, so that you can see just how thin they are. They look > like heroin > > addicts to me. I was surprised at how many of the women in the > audience -- _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "I. Marc Carlson" Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 22:29:11 -0600 Subject: H-COST: Footwear Update - -Poster: "I. Marc Carlson" For those who are interested, the very first of the "Great Project" updates to my shoe page are now in place, which may give you an idea of the direction that the page will be heading. (and yes, I know not all the pictures have transferred correctly). If anyone notices any internal links (other than the pictures) that aren't working, please let me know. Also, if there are any comments, negative or positive, those would be nice as well. Marc lib_imc@centum.utulsa.edu http://"www.pbm.com/~lindahl/carlson/SHOEHOME.HTM" _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Kat & Kent Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 22:38:53 -0600 Subject: Re: H-COST: emaciated actresses - -Poster: Kat & Kent Until I was thirty I weighed 115 pounds and I stand 5'8". I tried everything I could to gain weight. Drinking heavy duty milkshakes (loaded with protein & calories) every night before bed (after eating three meals *and* snacks) caused me to lose five pounds. Not everyone who is thin is anorexic. Kat _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: lilinah@grin.net Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 20:46:49 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: H-COST: emaciated actresses - -Poster: lilinah@grin.net Kat wrote: > >Until I was thirty I weighed 115 pounds and I stand 5'8". I tried >everything I could to gain weight. Drinking heavy duty milkshakes >(loaded with protein & calories) every night before bed (after eating >three meals *and* snacks) caused me to lose five pounds. Not everyone >who is thin is anorexic. That isn't the point. Human bodies come in a wide range of sizes and shapes and they also change over time as well. We're not talking about humans or women in general, but models and actresses, and while they have tended to be thinner than the average woman on the streets, they are thinner now than ever before. Someone else referred to the 1920's - but look at films or photos from the time and you'll see that actresses and models were no where near as thin as they are now. Same goes for the 40's, 50's, 60's, and 70's. Thin yes, but not as thin as now. I was looking over some old magazines and comparing the models with those of today, and there's a pronounced difference that can't be due merely to the fact that some women are naturally thin. This discussion isn't about body shapes in general, but the body shape promulgated by the entertainment industry, which is thinner than ever before. Lilinah _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Gregory Stapleton" Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 23:52:24 -0500 Subject: RE: H-COST: emaciated actresses - -Poster: "Gregory Stapleton" Actually, from some recent studying I've been doing, you don't put on weight from eating lots of protein, you actually loose weight. To put on the pounds, eat carbohydrates. I know that not every thin person is Anorexic, but I'll bet you even money if you asked each one of those women in that particular audience whether or not they were on a diet, the answer would have been a resounding 'yes', and I say this, because of the particular group of people involved. Gregory Stapleton / Gawain Kilgore > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-h-costume@indra.com [mailto:owner-h-costume@indra.com]On > Behalf Of Kat & Kent > Sent: Thursday, March 25, 1999 11:39 PM > To: h-costume@indra.com > Subject: Re: H-COST: emaciated actresses > > > > -Poster: Kat & Kent > > Until I was thirty I weighed 115 pounds and I stand 5'8". I tried > everything I could to gain weight. Drinking heavy duty milkshakes > (loaded with protein & calories) every night before bed (after eating > three meals *and* snacks) caused me to lose five pounds. Not everyone > who is thin is anorexic. > > Kat > _________________________________________________________________ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME > _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Lavolta Press Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 22:13:06 -0800 Subject: Re: H-COST: emaciated actresses - -Poster: Lavolta Press > Someone else referred to the 1920's - but look at films or photos from the > time and you'll see that actresses and models were no where near as thin as > they are now. > > Same goes for the 40's, 50's, 60's, and 70's. Thin yes, but not as thin as > now. I was looking over some old magazines and comparing the models with > those of today, and there's a pronounced difference that can't be due > merely to the fact that some women are naturally thin. Yes. When most women put on most original dresses from the 1920s and 1930s, even if the dress is the right size and the woman is of average weight they bind around the stomach, hips, and/or rear end in an unflattering way. But if you look at original photos from the 20s and 30s, most women then were bulging somewhat through the dress in the stomach, etc. Professonal models and actresses looked thinner than the average woman, but chubbier than they do now, and with poorer muscle tone. > > This discussion isn't about body shapes in general, but the body shape > promulgated by the entertainment industry, which is thinner than ever > before. > > Lilinah > > On the other hand, how many people really pay much attention to that image, in terms of actually overdieting and overexercising? OK, I know some people are anorexic or bulemic, but not the average person. We all know the image is unreal--not everyone is 18, rich, and hanging around the woods in evening gowns. Or has a lifelong dedication to spas and plastic surgery. I've never even _known_ anyone who looked like that or made a strong effort to. Fran - ---------------------------------------------- Visit our web sites! Books on historic costume and vintage clothes http://www.best.com/~lavolta/index.htm Vintage and historic dance http://www.best.com/~lavolta/dance/index.htm _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Melanie Wilson Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 02:37:46 -0500 Subject: H-COST: Chatelaines - -Poster: Melanie Wilson Anyone know where I can get a Victorian reproduction or cheap Chatelaine = at all ? Thanks Mel _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Diana H Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 23:57:50 -0800 Subject: Re: H-COST: Italian Ren. question - -Poster: Diana H cynthia j ley wrote: > -Poster: cynthia j ley > > Speaking of Italian... > > I've seen dresses which are essentially very simple A-line dresses, > falling from the shoulder to the feet, and sleeveless. There is no > fitted > bodice, but often a triangular bodice piece that looks like an > inverted > triangle and tags at the armscye for tying on sleeves. What time period? Or can you give me a picture to refer to? Or a painter? I am not sure what style you are referring to here. If you can give me a little more specific info on it, I can better help you with this. > I was wondering if anyone here might know the following: > > 1. What shape was the armscye? Round, ovoid, or...? > 2. Any ideas on these stomachers? What were they made of? Were they > decorated? if so, with what? > 3. Were the gowns laced in the back? Were they laced at all? > (I will happily answer these questions once we narrow it down) Diana :~> - -- * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * "There are too many mediocre things in life to deal with.....Love shouldn't be one of them." - --Ione Skye in "Dream for an Insomniac" _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Vincent Ho Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 00:11:49 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: H-COST: Chatelaines - -Poster: Vincent Ho On Fri, 26 Mar 1999, Melanie Wilson wrote: > > -Poster: Melanie Wilson > > Anyone know where I can get a Victorian reproduction or cheap Chatelaine at > all ? > > Thanks > > Mel Genuine antique chatelaines cost around $100-300, assuming they are not considered "jewelry". There are sewing accessories manufacturers that do sell chatelaines, and they are usually under $100. - -- Vincent B. Ho hbv@tsoft.com - -- When I dream that you love me, you'll surely forgive; Extend not your anger to sleep; For in visions alone your affections can live,-- I rise and it leaves me to weep. George Gordon, Lord Byron (1788-1824) _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ End of h-costume-digest V4 #236 ******************************* _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME-DIGEST From ???@??? Fri Mar 26 18:36:20 1999 Received: from mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE (mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE [130.149.4.14]) by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA03715 for ; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 18:25:11 +0100 (MET) Received: from mail.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.15]) by mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10QaM2-0001qv-00; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 18:25:10 +0100 Received: from coal.bg.tu-berlin.de by mail.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Fri, 26 Mar 1999 18:24:56 +0100 Received: from mail.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.15]) by mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10QaLl-0001ql-02; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 18:24:53 +0100 Received: from tubkom.prz.tu-berlin.de by mail.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Fri, 26 Mar 1999 18:24:47 +0100 Received: from mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE (mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE [130.149.4.14]) by tubkom.prz.tu-berlin.de (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA11283 for ; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 18:23:03 +0100 (MEZ) Received: from mail.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.15]) by mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10QaLU-0001qb-01; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 18:24:36 +0100 Received: from server.indra.com by mail.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Fri, 26 Mar 1999 18:24:03 +0100 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.8.5/) with ESMTP id LAA20658; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 11:32:35 -0700 (MST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id JAA08316 for h-costume-digest-outgoing; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 09:54:52 -0700 (MST) Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 09:54:52 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199903261654.JAA08316@indra.com> From: owner-h-costume-digest@indra.com To: h-costume-digest@indra.com Subject: h-costume-digest V4 #237 Reply-To: h-costume-digest@indra.com Errors-To: owner-h-costume-digest@indra.com Precedence: bulk h-costume-digest Friday, 26 March 1999 Volume 04 : Number 237 In this issue: H-COST: Re: emaciated deal RE: H-COST: Chatelaines H-COST: Corset survey H-COST: Chatelaines H-COST: Chatelaines, but not cheap RE: H-COST: Chatelaines Re: H-COST: Re: oscar dresses Re: H-COST: emaciated actresses Re: H-COST: emaciated actresses Re: H-COST: emaciated actresses Re: H-COST: emaciated actresses H-COST: Re: Chatelaines, Ren bodice findings H-COST: 19th Century Chatelaines H-COST: Renaissance Lace and Embroidery H-COST: Italian Renn question ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Dietmar Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 18:00:57 +0000 Subject: H-COST: Re: emaciated deal - -Poster: Dietmar Greetings all, "Marsha J. Hamilton" wrote: > I remember hearing, in a documentary about the evolution of the > "ideal" female form several years ago, that the attractiveness of > the ultra-thin woman arose after the freeing of concentration camp > survivors at the end of WW2. Sure, that would explain the popularity of Marilyn Monroe. Can we stop bashing thin people and get back on topic? Dietmar "Victory or Defeat rests in God's hands; over Honor, we ourselves are Lord and Master." _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Chandler, Sally" Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 09:41:24 -0000 Subject: RE: H-COST: Chatelaines - -Poster: "Chandler, Sally" Do you know Spike? I don't know his real name - he trades in good quality pewter & other metal stuff at Re-enactment Fairs. SA - -----Original Message----- From: Vincent Ho [SMTP:hbv@tsoft.com] Sent: Friday, March 26, 1999 8:12 AM To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: H-COST: Chatelaines - -Poster: Vincent Ho On Fri, 26 Mar 1999, Melanie Wilson wrote: > > -Poster: Melanie Wilson > > Anyone know where I can get a Victorian reproduction or cheap Chatelaine at > all ? > > Thanks > > Mel Genuine antique chatelaines cost around $100-300, assuming they are not considered "jewelry". There are sewing accessories manufacturers that do sell chatelaines, and they are usually under $100. - -- Vincent B. Ho hbv@tsoft.com - -- When I dream that you love me, you'll surely forgive; Extend not your anger to sleep; For in visions alone your affections can live,-- I rise and it leaves me to weep. George Gordon, Lord Byron (1788-1824) _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "KATE M BUNTING" Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 09:52:17 +0000 Subject: H-COST: Corset survey - -Poster: "KATE M BUNTING" Susannah - I don't wear stays frequently enough to participate in your = survey, but to me your premise seems self-evident. Last summer a well-endow= ed reenactor friend said that a new corset she was having made would = reduce her measurement by 4 in., and I commented that that would be a = physical impossibility for me, as my torso is mostly rib-cage with very = little spare flesh. PS I have a hearty appetite - I'm just skinny naturally! Kate Bunting (English Civil War re-enactor) _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Melanie Wilson Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 05:52:29 -0500 Subject: H-COST: Chatelaines - -Poster: Melanie Wilson >Genuine antique chatelaines cost around $100-300, assuming they are not considered "jewelry". Hmm not too bad, where might I find any online as I'm in the UK ? >There are sewing accessories manufacturers that do sell chatelaines, and= they are usually under $100. Again any contact details ? Thanks Mel _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Lynn Carpenter Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 06:28:11 -0500 Subject: H-COST: Chatelaines, but not cheap - -Poster: Lynn Carpenter On Fri, 26 Mar 1999, Melanie Wilson wrote: > > -Poster: Melanie Wilson > > Anyone know where I can get a Victorian reproduction or cheap Chatelaine at > all ? > > Thanks Tracy Jackson, of The Lacemaker, in Warren, OH has them. Sterling silver $350, for the fanciest one in the catalog, $145 for less fancy ones. http://www.lacemakerusa.com/ The catalog is $5, 4602 Mahoning Ave. NW Suite C, Warren OH 44483 (330)847-6535 Lynn standard disclaimer... _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Chandler, Sally" Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 11:24:53 -0000 Subject: RE: H-COST: Chatelaines - -Poster: "Chandler, Sally" Mace and Nairn, Salisbury - give me a while and I'll remember the address - I know, Crane Street! - -----Original Message----- From: Melanie Wilson [SMTP:MelanieWilson@compuserve.com] Sent: Friday, March 26, 1999 10:52 AM To: INTERNET:h-costume-digest@indra.com Subject: H-COST: Chatelaines - -Poster: Melanie Wilson >Genuine antique chatelaines cost around $100-300, assuming they are not considered "jewelry". Hmm not too bad, where might I find any online as I'm in the UK ? >There are sewing accessories manufacturers that do sell chatelaines, and they are usually under $100. Again any contact details ? Thanks Mel _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Sarah Toney" Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 09:02:03 -0500 Subject: Re: H-COST: Re: oscar dresses - -Poster: "Sarah Toney" Okay, are you my lost twin? *grin* I am also a natural blonde and I refuse to wear anything even remotely pink... even after I dyed my hair, it looks awful... I have often thought blondes should wear darker colors to offset their light complexions. >>Pink looks good on blonds....like my mother who wore every color of pink >>known to man at sometime in her life. > >Well, that comment is just begging to be disagreed with. ;) My hair is >naturally golden blonde and pink looks TERRIBLE on me. Mind you my skin is >also rather sallow (hence I dyed my hair red and it looks much better). > >I also have an aversion to pink due to a English grandmother who spent my >entire childhood trying to turn me into "a little lady" and kept attempting >to stuff me into frilly pink frocks. Needless to say I would have much >rather been climbing trees or something of that nature. > >Just my two cents, >Danielle > > _________________________________________________________________ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME > _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Sarah Toney" Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 09:04:30 -0500 Subject: Re: H-COST: emaciated actresses - -Poster: "Sarah Toney" I think it's pretty obvious the people who take care of themselves and aren't thin due to their own obsessions and those who are thin because they are always desperately trying to lose weight. My roommate can't gain weight for anything. Milkshakes, big macs all day, anything. But, she doesn't look unhealthy, just thin. There's a definite difference. > >-Poster: Kat & Kent > >Until I was thirty I weighed 115 pounds and I stand 5'8". I tried >everything I could to gain weight. Drinking heavy duty milkshakes >(loaded with protein & calories) every night before bed (after eating >three meals *and* snacks) caused me to lose five pounds. Not everyone >who is thin is anorexic. > >Kat > _________________________________________________________________ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME > _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Sarah Toney" Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 09:05:54 -0500 Subject: Re: H-COST: emaciated actresses - -Poster: "Sarah Toney" It hasn't always been this way, though. Marilyn Monroe was a size 12... and everyone thought she was oh-so-beautiful. Lucille Ball was a size 14. >This discussion isn't about body shapes in general, but the body shape >promulgated by the entertainment industry, which is thinner than ever >before. > >Lilinah > > > _________________________________________________________________ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME > _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: aleed Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 09:31:12 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: H-COST: emaciated actresses - -Poster: aleed > > -Poster: "Sarah Toney" > > It hasn't always been this way, though. Marilyn Monroe was a size 12... and > everyone thought she was oh-so-beautiful. Lucille Ball was a size 14. And now a size 14 actress like Kate Winslet (whom I personally think is one of the best looking young actresses we have) is subjected to weight jokes from every corner. Makes you sick, doesn't it. Drea _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Parsla Liepa Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 09:41:21 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: H-COST: emaciated actresses - -Poster: Parsla Liepa 12 and 14 in today's sizes, or the sizes of the day? My mother can still wear her suits from the late 50s and 60s, most of them (that weren't home made) are labeled size 10 and 12. When she buys clothes today she is a size 6 or an 8. This discussion isn't about body shapes in general, but the body shape <>promulgated by the entertainment industry, which is thinner than ever <>before. Parsla There's not a mome wrath born that can outgrabe me. ***************************************************************************** _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: JPMcTeer@aol.com Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 09:43:36 EST Subject: H-COST: Re: Chatelaines, Ren bodice findings - -Poster: JPMcTeer@aol.com Melanie Wilson asked > > Anyone know where I can get a Victorian reproduction or cheap Chatelaine at > all ? > Try first at your local "Victorian house restoration" gift shop or Historical Society. Just saw one yesterday at the Minnesota Historical Society. For phone order, try Hedgehog Handworks in California. Their catalog from last May shows five styles in gold plate or silver plate (just under $40) with additional chains available. They also sell things suitable for hanging from them like needle and thimble cases. (For the Renaissance bodice?), they sell lacers from Norway in pewter. I saw their stuff last May at the CSA convention - good quality for the money. Hedgehog Handworks/ Phone 310-670-6040/ POBox 45384, Westchester CA 90045 What I bought was their 13" spoon busk. Joan in Minneapolis _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Hope H. Dunlap" Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 10:30:01 -0500 Subject: H-COST: 19th Century Chatelaines - -Poster: "Hope H. Dunlap" In pin form, Victorian chatelaines are available from Amazon Drygoods, $35, the chains cost extra. They also have many antique style things to hang from it, thimbles, tape measure, stiletto, seam ripper, needle case and seam ripper, all in little cases, in brass, sterling, and silver plate. There are no pictures of the articles in their general catalog. They suggest sending an SASE for the descriptive brochure with pictures for current stock to 2218 East 11th Street Davenport, Iowa 52803-3760. Call-3-9-322-4138 for Questions,1-319-322-6800 Business,1-800-798-7979 Orders,1-319-322-4003 Fax. Jas. Townsend & Son have one that hooks over a belt, but it also looks like the belt could be passed through the hook for added security. Either in brass or "German silver" which is an alloy, mostly nickel, each $40. These look like they might be appropriate for 18th century wear. Flat with a pierced and engraved design with chains. http://www.jastown.com or 1-800-338-1665 Mon-Sat 9-5. Clotilde has many, many nifty 19th century things pictured in their catalog to hang on a chatelaine, but I can find no chatelaine itself. The goodies include, folding brass needlecases, tartan pincushions in a heart shape, needle cases enameled with 18th century pastoral scenes, and many more really unique and delightful historical facsimiles. http://www.clotilde.com or 1-800-772-2891. Finally, there's a nice book entitled Chatelaines, Utility to Glorious Extravagance, by Genevieve E. Cummins & Nerylla D. Taunton hardcover $69 at Burnley and Trowbridge 1-757-253-1644, 24-hour fax 1-757-253-9120. These all look like fun, sort of the 19th century version of a charm bracelet, with nifty cute little useful needlework tools forming the hanging charms. Hope H. Dunlap _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Hope H. Dunlap" Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 11:23:22 -0500 Subject: H-COST: Renaissance Lace and Embroidery - -Poster: "Hope H. Dunlap" A reprint of the Vecillio *Pattern Book of Renaissance Lace* was republished, I think by Dover. You might try Amazon Drygoods for it or http://www.bookfinder.com. It originally dates from 1617, but is supposed to be a reasonable source. *Mary Francis Embroidery Book* about $8-10 has about 5-7 pages on the subject, including one really bad black and white photograph of a piece of Rennaissance lace from the Victoria and Abert Museum. You might also take a look at *Embroidery in Britian 1200-1750* by the V & A, softcover and wonderful, $24.95 from Burnley and Trowbridge, and probably the URL above, too. It is British, so I don't know how much help it's going to be for Italian, but it is a fabulous book and covers your time frame. Hope H. Dunlap _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: griffinhold@usa.net Date: 26 Mar 99 09:54:19 MST Subject: H-COST: Italian Renn question - -Poster: griffinhold@usa.net Hello; I normally lurk due to work constraints, but I have a question on an Ital= ian Renn that I'm working on and that seems to be a current conversation thre= ad. = I'm working from a picture from the museum in Perugia of a saint. (I'm at= work and don't have the exact reference). I'm afraid I'm hopeless at web sites= but I can e-mail the scanned picture to anyone who would like to respond. (I= didn't want to overload everyone's mail storage capacity). The best I can= pinpoint time frame is about 1350 based on the painter's birth and death = dates and the sleeves in the picture. = It looks to me as if the front is organ pipe pleated from just below the = bust to just above the hips. Based on Jacqueline Herald's book of Renaissance= Dress in Italy, my theory is that the back should be the same (plate 68, = p. 116) I have two questions. One, the only way I could get the mock-up to drape= right was to drape the front on the bias and the back on the straight gra= in. = Is this correct? It would explain why the gown is from a plain colored fabric. Also, are there any tricks on this? I'm still not entirely happ= y with the exterior pleats. Second, should there be a false sleeve inside o= f the puffed sleeve to allow it to keep its shape and not slouch down? There will be a time lag in response as I live in Italy and will be 6 to = 9 hours off from most other respondents. However, if anyone is planning a t= rip to Italy, I will be happy to chat at length about things to see and do. = Lastly, as long as I'm writing, I have a tidbit for the knitted garment t= hread lately. There is a wonderful museum in Florence called Museo Stibbert wh= ich recently had an exhibit roughly translated as 'East meets West'. There w= ere two Italian men's knitted jupons. The one is in white and gold silk with= a basketweave pattern at the bottom and a diamond (color change) pattern ab= ove from the last quarter of the 16th century. The other is red silk with go= ld and silver with a lovely knitted in pattern and color changed frog design= s at the front opening. The women's are from 1600 to 1630 and 1700 respective= ly. = The earlier one is red and gold and silver again with basketwork at the h= em and patterned with floral bits. The 1700 garment is in white wool with g= reen ribbos and has 4 different patterns. Anyone interested in these can cont= act me off line and I'll send the scanned photo and a more complete translati= on of the caption. There is a great catalog titled L'Abito per Il Corpo/ Il Co= rpo per L'Abito, Islam e Occidente a confronto, 1998 by Artificio Edizioni sr= l, Borgo SS. Apostoli 40R, Firenze. = Thanking everyone in advance Lyn Gillespie ____________________________________________________________________ Get free e-mail and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=3D= 1 _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ End of h-costume-digest V4 #237 ******************************* _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME-DIGEST From ???@??? Mon Apr 12 09:27:52 1999 Received: from mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE (mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE [130.149.4.14]) by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA05568 for ; Sat, 27 Mar 1999 00:59:27 +0100 (MET) Received: from mail.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.15]) by mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10QgVa-0005yZ-01; Sat, 27 Mar 1999 00:59:26 +0100 Received: from coal.bg.tu-berlin.de by mail.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Sat, 27 Mar 1999 00:59:14 +0100 Received: from mail.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.15]) by mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10QgVK-0005yU-01; Sat, 27 Mar 1999 00:59:10 +0100 Received: from tubkom.prz.tu-berlin.de by mail.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Sat, 27 Mar 1999 00:59:02 +0100 Received: from mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE (mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE [130.149.4.14]) by tubkom.prz.tu-berlin.de (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA13050 for ; Sat, 27 Mar 1999 00:57:21 +0100 (MEZ) Received: from mail.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.15]) by mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10QgV5-0005yS-00; Sat, 27 Mar 1999 00:58:55 +0100 Received: from server.indra.com by mail.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Sat, 27 Mar 1999 00:58:47 +0100 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.8.5/) with ESMTP id QAA12545; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 16:57:25 -0700 (MST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id QAA23870 for h-costume-digest-outgoing; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 16:57:13 -0700 (MST) Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 16:57:13 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199903262357.QAA23870@indra.com> From: owner-h-costume-digest@indra.com To: h-costume-digest@indra.com Subject: h-costume-digest V4 #238 Reply-To: h-costume-digest@indra.com Errors-To: owner-h-costume-digest@indra.com Precedence: bulk Status: O h-costume-digest Friday, 26 March 1999 Volume 04 : Number 238 In this issue: Re: H-COST: Renaissance Lace and Embroidery Re: H-COST: Italian Ren. question Re: H-COST: Chatelaines Re: H-COST: Italian Ren. question H-COST: corset gap Re: H-COST: emaciated actresses H-COST: Chatelaines H-COST: leine pattern Re: H-COST: Italian Ren. question Re: H-COST: Italian Ren. question H-COST: Name That Portrait Re: H-COST: Name That Portrait Re: H-COST: Name That Portrait RE: H-COST: Name That Portrait RE: H-COST: Name That Portrait ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: cynthia j ley Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 12:14:45 EST Subject: Re: H-COST: Renaissance Lace and Embroidery - -Poster: cynthia j ley Hope writes: > You might also take a look at >*Embroidery in Britian 1200-1750* by the V & A, softcover >and wonderful, $24.95 from Burnley and Trowbridge, and >probably the URL above, too. It is British, so I don't know >how much help it's going to be for Italian, but it is a >fabulous book and covers your time frame. It's specifically English embroideries, but, oh, so wonderful! Arlys ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: cynthia j ley Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 12:14:45 EST Subject: Re: H-COST: Italian Ren. question - -Poster: cynthia j ley >What time period? Or can you give me a picture to refer to? Or a >painter? I am not sure what style you are referring to here. If you >can give me a little more specific info on it, I can better help you >with this. I wish I could. A costumer friend of mine made one of these--sleeves attach at tags on the armscye. It is very pretty and simple. Isn't costuming by oral tradition fun? ;) I did however get an answer to question number 3. They weren't laced--just pulled over the head, and the sleeves were laced on. >> I was wondering if anyone here might know the following: >> >> 1. What shape was the armscye? Round, ovoid, or...? >> 2. Any ideas on these stomachers? What were they made of? Were they >> decorated? if so, with what? >> 3. Were the gowns laced in the back? Were they laced at all? Thanks! Arlys ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Mara Riley Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 13:08:10 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: H-COST: Chatelaines - -Poster: Mara Riley I'm pretty sure I've seen them on James Townsend's web site, which (I think) is www.jastown.com Smoke and Fire also carries them. Mara On Fri, 26 Mar 1999, Melanie Wilson wrote: > > -Poster: Melanie Wilson > > Anyone know where I can get a Victorian reproduction or cheap Chatelaine at > all ? > > Thanks > > Mel > _________________________________________________________________ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME > _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Emma Elizabeth Lehman <00217146@bigred.unl.edu> Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 12:40:41 -0600 (CST) Subject: Re: H-COST: Italian Ren. question - -Poster: Emma Elizabeth Lehman <00217146@bigred.unl.edu> Do you mean something like this? http://www.siue.edu/COSTUMES/PLATE23AX.HTML Emma > >What time period? Or can you give me a picture to refer to? Or a > >painter? I am not sure what style you are referring to here. If you > >can give me a little more specific info on it, I can better help you > >with this. > > I wish I could. A costumer friend of mine made one of these--sleeves > attach at tags on the armscye. It is very pretty and simple. > > Isn't costuming by oral tradition fun? ;) > > I did however get an answer to question number 3. They weren't > laced--just pulled over the head, and the sleeves were laced on. > > >> I was wondering if anyone here might know the following: > >> > >> 1. What shape was the armscye? Round, ovoid, or...? > >> 2. Any ideas on these stomachers? What were they made of? Were they > >> decorated? if so, with what? > >> 3. Were the gowns laced in the back? Were they laced at all? > > > Thanks! > > > > Arlys > > > > > > > ___________________________________________________________________ > You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. > Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html > or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] > _________________________________________________________________ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME > _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Gaelscot@aol.com Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 14:15:23 EST Subject: H-COST: corset gap - -Poster: Gaelscot@aol.com What about Elizabethan or Baroque corsets? Should they have a 2- to 4-inch gap too, or are we talking about a very specific time range here? Gail Finke _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Penny E. Ladnier" Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 17:07:13 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: H-COST: emaciated actresses - -Poster: "Penny E. Ladnier" Seems like we go through this "thin" discussion every year at Oscar time... So I will write this, while I eat my daily Mr. Goodbar candy.. First, please lets stop getting bent out of shape about the "thin people". I'm thin, be that way my whole life. I am 5'10" and weight 128 lbs. I can't put on weight because I have a use up every calorie I eat in a day. I eat eight meals a day, and those on the list who have spent the day with me, I know agree. I sleep very little and am always doing something. My Dad's thin, I'm thin, and my six kids are thin. I modeled in my first years of college, it paid the bills. My employers liked me because I could wear about anything from a size 8 to 14. But I think society has accepted the thought that just because someone is thin, that they have an eating disorder. I can't tell you how many times my students in school, have asked me, do you have an eating disorder, or are you sick. Where did kids get this idea? From television or their parents. People are born with thin genes just like people are born with stout genes. Just like some people are born with short genes and tall genes. Maybe we should all accept people for who they are. While working with this 1893 Ladies Home Journal this week, I ran across this article about "Women Over Forty". It discusses the Thin and Stout women and how they should dress to look their best. YES! This was even a topic of concern in 1893 (106 years ago). The article states that the problem with women is that everyone wants to dress in the same fashion not considering their body type. When a stout woman tries to wear a fashion cut for a thin woman and she is very uncomfortable. The garment is not cut the same. I had decided that I wanted to place all the fashion articles up on my website from ten issues from Ladies Home Journal. I wanted a good primary source for average woman on the web. The point is, I flipped back and forth as to put the "Over Forty" article up on the web, because I did not want to offend anyone in present day. The article is very frank in one section. So I asked several historians to read the article and we discussed it. The conclusion was, that I should not edit out part of fashion history just because it may offend someone in present day. If I did that, then I would be presenting a watered down version of the source. If my goal was to present all the fashion articles, then I should present all of them, unedited. So this weekend, I will be presenting this article plus the other four articles from this 1893 issue on my website. Everything is ready for them to go up, but a few graphics. I'll let you know when its functional. Lastly, you might want to think about what you are viewing when looking at current day fashion magazines. Those photos have been so digitally retouched, that they look nothing like the original model. I have a lesson that I teach my computer students on how to retouch photographs with computers. We can make anyone lose weight or erase a pimple throw the computer imaging. The same goes with film. Most films are enhanced with computer imaging. This is my classes' next week lesson. Later...Penny Penny E. Dunlap Ladnier The Costume Gallery Website http://www.costumegallery.com _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Mlongfoto@aol.com Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 14:52:56 -0700 (MST) Subject: H-COST: Chatelaines - -Poster: Mlongfoto@aol.com Hedgehog Handworks has several inexpensive victorian reproduction chatelaines, all under $50 with chains. Their catalog is $5 but worth it, they sent it immediately upon receipt of my check. With a coupon worth $5 off my first purchase. 1-888-670-6040 _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Brenda Roidan Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 10:59:10 -1000 Subject: H-COST: leine pattern - -Poster: Brenda Roidan Hello, Would anyone out there have directions or an online source for a leine pattern? Or even a good online source for a clear picture so I could make one up myself? I've seen the pattern at http://trojan.neta.com/~caradoc/leine.html but the author herself says that it may not be a period construction method and from discussion here I gather that the drawstrings over the shoulder are indeed incorrect. TIA, Bren _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: cynthia j ley Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 17:35:25 EST Subject: Re: H-COST: Italian Ren. question - -Poster: cynthia j ley To Emma: I don't have access to www. Thank you for your thoughtfulness though--I appreciate you hunting it down! :-) I should have been clearer as to tech capabilities. Can you describe it to me? Arlys ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Emma Elizabeth Lehman <00217146@bigred.unl.edu> Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 16:54:11 -0600 (CST) Subject: Re: H-COST: Italian Ren. question - -Poster: Emma Elizabeth Lehman <00217146@bigred.unl.edu> > -Poster: cynthia j ley > > To Emma: I don't have access to www. Thank you for your thoughtfulness > though--I appreciate you hunting it down! :-) I should have been clearer > as to tech capabilities. > > Can you describe it to me? Oh! Bummer. I'll try. But first, a quick scan through books: The web page I gave was actually plate 23a - First Half of the Fifteenth Century from The History of Costume By Braun & Schneider - c.1861-1880 A similar dress is in Domenico Ghirlandaio: Frescos of Santa Maria Novella, Florence, as seen in the detail on p. 213 of Boucher's 20,000 Years of Fashion, - --which seems to have been redrawn on p. 205 of Kohler's A History of Costume. (the lady on the right) ...I think I'll wait and see if you have any of these books before attempting a discription, I'm not too sure about my termenology, and I'm not sure where to start. Emma _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Irene leNoir Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 17:54:37 -0500 Subject: H-COST: Name That Portrait - -Poster: Irene leNoir Hello Everyone, I'm hoping someone on the list can help. I'm thinking of a specific portrait. I don't know the name of the artist or the name of the person portrayed. The person portrayed is a man, wearing tudor or Elizabethan. Specifically, he is wearing a collar-style necklace of beads. Along the length of the necklace, the beads alternate between single large (perhaps filigree?) approximately 1/2" beads, and multiple strands of smaller beads (perhaps garnet?) strung in lengths of about 3-4" between the larger beads. I may be wrong, but I seem to recall that perhaps the man in question was a suitor of Queen Elizabeth. Does anyone know the portrait I am thinking of? Do you know the name of the artist or any other information that will help me find it? Wishing for too much here, I'm sure - Do you have a URL where I can find the portrait on-line? Any and all help would be greatly appreciated. Jessica Clark SCA: Ir=E8ne leNoir irene@ici.net http://home.ici.net/~beowulf/jessica _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "BlackCat =^..^=" Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 15:05:09 -0800 Subject: Re: H-COST: Name That Portrait - -Poster: "BlackCat =^..^=" Irene leNoir wrote: > I'm hoping someone on the list can help. I'm thinking of a specific > portrait. I don't know the name of the artist or the name of the person > portrayed. > > The person portrayed is a man, wearing tudor or Elizabethan. > Specifically, he is wearing a collar-style necklace of beads. Along the > length of the necklace, the beads alternate between single large (perhaps > filigree?) approximately 1/2" beads, and multiple strands of smaller > beads (perhaps garnet?) strung in lengths of about 3-4" between the > larger beads. > > I may be wrong, but I seem to recall that perhaps the man in question was > a suitor of Queen Elizabeth. It sounds like Leichester... What does he look like? - --Chris _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Irene leNoir Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 18:37:10 -0500 Subject: Re: H-COST: Name That Portrait - -Poster: Irene leNoir >It sounds like Leichester... What does he look like? I think maybe short dark hair and a short beard or goatee. Would Leichester be the artist or the subject? Jessica Clark SCA: Ir=E8ne leNoir irene@ici.net http://home.ici.net/~beowulf/jessica _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Wylie & Gail" Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 15:43:24 -0800 Subject: RE: H-COST: Name That Portrait - -Poster: "Wylie & Gail" Leichester would be the subject. However, it might be easier if we knew what the source is for the portrait. Did you find it in a book, or online? ~G > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-h-costume@indra.com [mailto:owner-h-costume@indra.com]On > Behalf Of Irene leNoir > Sent: Friday, 26 March, 1999 15:37 > To: H-Costume > Subject: Re: H-COST: Name That Portrait > > > > -Poster: Irene leNoir > > >It sounds like Leichester... What does he look like? > > I think maybe short dark hair and a short beard or goatee. > > Would Leichester be the artist or the subject? > > Jessica Clark > SCA: Irène leNoir > irene@ici.net > http://home.ici.net/~beowulf/jessica > > _________________________________________________________________ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME > _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Irene leNoir Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 18:56:59 -0500 Subject: RE: H-COST: Name That Portrait - -Poster: Irene leNoir >Leichester would be the subject. However, it might be easier if we knew wh= at >the source is for the portrait. Did you find it in a book, or online? I saw it in a book, years ago. I seem to remember that it was on the left-facing page either at the beginning of the book or at the beginning of a chapter. Not that that information is likely to help ;-) Jessica Clark SCA: Ir=E8ne leNoir irene@ici.net http://home.ici.net/~beowulf/jessica _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ End of h-costume-digest V4 #238 ******************************* _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME-DIGEST From ???@??? Mon Apr 12 09:27:53 1999 Received: from mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE (mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE [130.149.4.14]) by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA08589 for ; Sat, 27 Mar 1999 21:54:02 +0100 (MET) Received: from mail.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.15]) by mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10R05h-0007S0-01; Sat, 27 Mar 1999 21:54:01 +0100 Received: from coal.bg.tu-berlin.de by mail.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Sat, 27 Mar 1999 21:53:53 +0100 Received: from tubkom.prz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.62.9] ident=root) by mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10R05W-0007Ry-00; Sat, 27 Mar 1999 21:53:50 +0100 Received: from mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE (mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE [130.149.4.14]) by tubkom.prz.tu-berlin.de (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA16441 for ; Sat, 27 Mar 1999 21:52:08 +0100 (MEZ) Received: from mail.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.15]) by mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10R05P-0007Rn-00; Sat, 27 Mar 1999 21:53:43 +0100 Received: from server.indra.com by mail.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Sat, 27 Mar 1999 21:53:11 +0100 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.8.5/) with ESMTP id NAA03437; Sat, 27 Mar 1999 13:54:22 -0700 (MST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id NAA03260 for h-costume-digest-outgoing; Sat, 27 Mar 1999 13:51:33 -0700 (MST) Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1999 13:51:33 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199903272051.NAA03260@indra.com> From: owner-h-costume-digest@indra.com To: h-costume-digest@indra.com Subject: h-costume-digest V4 #239 Reply-To: h-costume-digest@indra.com Errors-To: owner-h-costume-digest@indra.com Precedence: bulk Status: O h-costume-digest Saturday, 27 March 1999 Volume 04 : Number 239 In this issue: Re: H-COST: Chatelaines Re: H-COST: Name That Portrait Re: H-COST: Chatelaines RE: H-COST: Name That Portrait Re: H-COST: Chatelaines H-COST: Dbledelit@aol.com-Chatelaines H-COST: European list Re: H-COST: Italian Ren. question Re: H-COST: Re: oscar dresses H-COST: Warning re Fabreeze Re: Re: H-COST: Oscars/L.A. Times Re: H-COST: Italian Ren. question Re: H-COST: Name That Portrait Re: Re: H-COST: Oscars/L.A. Times ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Kristen M. Sieber" Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 17:12:28 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: H-COST: Chatelaines - -Poster: "Kristen M. Sieber" - --- Melanie Wilson wrote: > > -Poster: Melanie Wilson > > > Anyone know where I can get a Victorian reproduction > or cheap Chatelaine at > all ? > The "Nordic Needle" catalog has a number of different styles. I don't have their URL in front of me, but they do have a website (search: Nordic Needle). Kristen M. Sieber _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: CONNECT@aol.com Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 20:09:52 EST Subject: Re: H-COST: Name That Portrait - -Poster: CONNECT@aol.com In a message dated 3/26/99 5:56:21 PM, irene@ici.net writes: << Hello Everyone, I'm hoping someone on the list can help. I'm thinking of a specific portrait. I don't know the name of the artist or the name of the person portrayed. The person portrayed is a man, wearing tudor or Elizabethan. Specifically, he is wearing a collar-style necklace of beads. Along the length of the necklace, the beads alternate between single large (perhaps filigree?) approximately 1/2" beads, and multiple strands of smaller beads (perhaps garnet?) strung in lengths of about 3-4" between the larger beads. I may be wrong, but I seem to recall that perhaps the man in question was a suitor of Queen Elizabeth. Does anyone know the portrait I am thinking of? >> One of the many portraits of Robert Dudley, Earl of Leicester seems to match your brief description? I believe you'll find it in one of Roy Strong's books on Elizabethan Portraiture, but not the one titled The English Icon. However, that book does have a couple nice portraits of Leicester in it too, if that's useful at all. Portraits of Leicester are usually found at the National Portrait Gallery in London, but I have no idea if they have the specific one you're looking for. Yours, Pattie Rayl _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Catherine de Calais" Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 20:35:51 PST Subject: Re: H-COST: Chatelaines - -Poster: "Catherine de Calais" Okay, I am new to this list and so this is probably a stupid question, but what is a Chatelaine? Catherine Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Joan M Jurancich Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1999 01:05:47 -0700 (MST) Subject: RE: H-COST: Name That Portrait - -Poster: Joan M Jurancich It very much sounds like the portrait of Robert Dudley, Earl of Leicester, attributed to Steven van der Meulen, c. 1565. I have it in a number of books, but the one right at hand is "All the Queen's Men: Elizabeth I and Her Courtiers" by Neville Williams, 1972 [no ISBN], published by Macmillan Company. The portrait is on page 48. Leicester is in a high-necked doublet with scalloped wings in the armscyes and matching tabs at the waist. It's a slashed doublet, red with lots of gold lace trim. Joan Jurancich Sacramento, CA At 06:56 PM 03/26/1999 -0500, Irene leNoir wrote: > >-Poster: Irene leNoir > >>Leichester would be the subject. However, it might be easier if we knew= what >>the source is for the portrait. Did you find it in a book, or online? > >I saw it in a book, years ago. I seem to remember that it was on the=20 >left-facing page either at the beginning of the book or at the beginning=20 >of a chapter. Not that that information is likely to help ;-) > >Jessica Clark >SCA: Ir=E8ne leNoir >irene@ici.net >http://home.ici.net/~beowulf/jessica _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Ella Lynoure Rajamaki" Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1999 10:58:08 +2 Subject: Re: H-COST: Chatelaines - -Poster: "Ella Lynoure Rajamaki" On 26 Mar 99, at 14:52, Mlongfoto@aol.com wrote: > Hedgehog Handworks has several inexpensive victorian reproduction chatelaines, > all under $50 with chains. Their catalog is $5 but worth it, they sent it > immediately upon receipt of my check. With a coupon worth $5 off my first > purchase. > > 1-888-670-6040 Please, when ever posting sources, please do also post the address and other possible contact information you know. Not all people on the list live in USA, so to at least some making a phone call there would easily cost way more than the catalogue itself. - -- - -------(c) 1999--------------* lynoure@tuug.org * Ella Lynoure Rajamaki--------* http://www.tuug.org/~lynoure * _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Melanie Wilson Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1999 04:55:57 -0500 Subject: H-COST: Dbledelit@aol.com-Chatelaines - -Poster: Melanie Wilson >Heritage Crafts = 3461 Bunmann Rd. = Encinitas, CA 92024-5716 Do you have a fax or email address for them please ? Mel _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Andrea Clef Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1999 10:17:33 +0100 Subject: H-COST: European list - -Poster: Andrea Clef Hello everybody! This post is mainly aimed at the European members of this list : I have discovered an additional mailing list dedicated to historic costume which is based in Europe (UK). The listowner`s intention in opening this list was to make it easier for European costumers to find local ressources and people with common interests. Unfortunately not many Europeans have used this opportunity so far, so if you`re interested in this list, e-mail me privately and I`d be happy to provide you information on how to subscribe. Of course, everybody from around the world is welcome as well! Many greetings, Diana _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Christina Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1999 08:55:59 -0600 Subject: Re: H-COST: Italian Ren. question - -Poster: Christina > > > But first, a quick scan through books: > The web page I gave was actually plate 23a - First Half of the Fifteenth > Century from The History of Costume By Braun & Schneider - c.1861-1880 > Are you talking about the yellow over tabard worn by the lady on the left, or the red v-neck over an underdress in the back? You're right. The A-line does sound like an over tabard, though I'm not sure about the lace-on sleeves. I've only ever seen tabards that are sleeveless over another gown or gowns. - -Magdalena _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Megan McHugh" Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1999 10:58:26 -0500 Subject: Re: H-COST: Re: oscar dresses - -Poster: "Megan McHugh" I must be a lost triplet, as I am blonde and have always preferred jewel tones to offset my pale complexion. And was a tomboy as well, in fact the only dresses I like are historic and/or long ones as I hate pantyhose with a passion!!!!! - -----Original Message----- From: Sarah Toney To: h-costume@indra.com Date: Friday, March 26, 1999 9:02 AM Subject: Re: H-COST: Re: oscar dresses > >-Poster: "Sarah Toney" > >Okay, are you my lost twin? *grin* I am also a natural blonde and I refuse >to wear anything even remotely pink... even after I dyed my hair, it looks >awful... > >I have often thought blondes should wear darker colors to offset their light >complexions. > >>>Pink looks good on blonds....like my mother who wore every color of pink >>>known to man at sometime in her life. >> >>Well, that comment is just begging to be disagreed with. ;) My hair is >>naturally golden blonde and pink looks TERRIBLE on me. Mind you my skin is >>also rather sallow (hence I dyed my hair red and it looks much better). > >> >>I also have an aversion to pink due to a English grandmother who spent my >>entire childhood trying to turn me into "a little lady" and kept attempting >>to stuff me into frilly pink frocks. Needless to say I would have much >>rather been climbing trees or something of that nature. >> >>Just my two cents, >>Danielle >> >> _________________________________________________________________ >> To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com >> with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME >> > > _________________________________________________________________ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Sylvia Rognstad Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1999 09:49:45 -0700 (MST) Subject: H-COST: Warning re Fabreeze - -Poster: Sylvia Rognstad Since I think the product called Fabreeze has been discussed on this list before, I am forwarding a message I just got, for those of you who have pets: This is a message from the Veterinary Emergency Center in Needham regarding a product called febreze. Febreze a new product that is used to get odors out of fabrics has been causing deaths and illness in dogs and birds. There have been multiple instances reported in the past few weeks of dogs and birds dying after Febreze was used anywhere near them. Some dogs have only gotten very ill, but some have died. Several birds have died as well. Febreze contains zinc chloride, which is the culprit. If you have recently sprayed your dog's bed with this product, please wash it until you get all of the Febreze out, or get your dog new bedding. Please pass the word along to your friends so we can prevent further deaths. > This was a notice from the Veterinary Emergency Center in Needham, MA >> Sylvia R Divinity Designs http://www.d-e-designs.com/divinity/ 515 Manhattan Drive, #203 sylvia@netherworld.com Boulder, CO 80303 USA complete catalog on website _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Gerekr@aol.com Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1999 15:07:20 EST Subject: Re: Re: H-COST: Oscars/L.A. Times - -Poster: Gerekr@aol.com About the dresses being assigned to various actresses by the Oscar-show, rather than being their personal selections... For some reason that triggered a memory of several times while I was watching that I thought how much nicer (more elegant, more attractive) the young women doing escort-off-the-stage duty looked in their very simple, mostly covered-up black dresses. Of course, those dresses are supposed to be invisible next to what the "personalities" are wearing, but there were numerous instances where the invisible dresses showed up the "fashion" numbers by direct comparison, to my eye, at least. (We really liked Zeta-Jones, too, and Lopez looked great in a sort of teeny-tiny Audrey Hepburn way in that great big skirt. I thought Geena's flapper looked really strong, once I figured out what it was (8-0!), and her skinned-back hair suited the flapper perfectly. My biggest "huh, wha'" was Uma Thurman's bodice, from the appearance of sagging and lop-sidedness inside that loose, soft fabric. Her upper arm bracelets made me wonder if maybe it was supposed to look like a "silver-wrapped surprise package from the harem"?) Chimene _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Diana H Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1999 12:14:08 -0800 Subject: Re: H-COST: Italian Ren. question - -Poster: Diana H Christina wrote: > -Poster: Christina > > > > > > > But first, a quick scan through books: > > The web page I gave was actually plate 23a - First Half of the > Fifteenth > > Century from The History of Costume By Braun & Schneider - > c.1861-1880 > > > > Are you talking about the yellow over tabard worn by the lady on the > left, or > the red v-neck over an underdress in the back? You're right. The > A-line does > sound like an over tabard, though I'm not sure about the lace-on > sleeves. > I've only ever seen tabards that are sleeveless over another gown or > gowns. > Dear list, If this is indeed the style of dress that is in question, I can clear up a few things. Yes, it is a tabard over the main body of the dress. The main dress has a high waist and pleated skirt. The sleeves are attached to the main dress and the tabard is sleeveless. The sleeves are often tied on with the underarms left unattached and there are usually cutouts or gaps on the sleeves for the chemise to show through. Here is a link to that style of dress: http://metalab.unc.edu/cjackson/ghirlandaio/p-ghirlandaio2.htm The main lady in the picture is wearing what I described above. The lady behind her and to the right is wearing one of the dresses sans tabard. There may be a placard inbetween the lacing gaps and I have seen this style on a number of this type of dress. You will notice, however, that the main lady does not have this placard. Both styles were used. As a side note, if one is looking for historical accuracy in researching a project, Braun & Schnieder is NOT the place to look. It is a book of third- or fourth-hand sources that makes us in the costume research area cringe! The original paintings can be found and are much better sources to look at. You may not always be able to figure out what is going on, but at least you don't have added details or things left out (as you might get from an interpretative drawing). Also, please be careful when looking at renaissance paintings that are about Biblical themes. Sometimes the clothing depicted is actually from the age it was painted. But other times it is the painter's interpretation of what people would wear from Biblical times. In the case of this painting, I have seen portraits and other paintings that support the fact that these dresses were styles from the age/date of the painting. But sometimes they aren't. Just use caution if you are trying for historical accuracy..... Diana :~> - -- * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * "There are too many mediocre things in life to deal with.....Love shouldn't be one of them." - --Ione Skye in "Dream for an Insomniac" _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Margo Anderson Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1999 12:30:57 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: H-COST: Name That Portrait - -Poster: Margo Anderson >> >> The person portrayed is a man, wearing tudor or Elizabethan. >> Specifically, he is wearing a collar-style necklace of beads. Along the >> length of the necklace, the beads alternate between single large (perhaps >> filigree?) approximately 1/2" beads, and multiple strands of smaller >> beads (perhaps garnet?) strung in lengths of about 3-4" between the >> larger beads. > That's a fairly common style of necklace. There are quite a few portraits of Robert Dudley, Earl of Leicester, wearing them, as well as other gentlemen of the period. The (probably) van der Muelen portrait of him wearing the killer doublet made of gold ribbons shows a necklace of alternating clusters of multiple strands of pearls and garnet beads, wrapped twice around his neck, with the Lesser George depended from it. Could this be the one? Margo Anderson _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Doris J. Nash" Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1999 14:53:29 -0600 Subject: Re: Re: H-COST: Oscars/L.A. Times - -Poster: "Doris J. Nash" At 03:07 PM 3/27/99 EST, you wrote: > >-Poster: Gerekr@aol.com > >About the dresses being assigned to various actresses by the Oscar-show, >rather than being their personal selections... I think I saw on one of the pre-show programs something about that--the actress hires a consultant/stylist, who shows her stuff from various designers (who get publicity & PR out of the deal), and she picks a gown. I don't recall how far in advance this is, so maybe there isn't time for extensive alterations. How much input the stylist has on the dress, hairstyle, accessories, etc. I don't know. wha'" was Uma Thurman's bodice, from the appearance of sagging and >lop-sidedness inside that loose, soft fabric. Her upper arm bracelets >made me wonder if maybe it was supposed to look like a "silver-wrapped >surprise package from the harem"?) > I thought perhaps the inspiration for this gown was Gwyneth Paltrow all wound up in the sheet in the love scene in "Shakespeare in Love". You think? > >Chimene Doris, who has been Oscar-watching for years, and is SO relieved that the boring slip-dress seems to have gone away. (Anne Heche being the exception, I guess.) ================ Doris Nash 515-294-8863 Costume Shop Supervisor, Iowa State University "...with ruffs and cuffs, and farthingales and things." - --Shakespeare, The Taming of the Shrew _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ End of h-costume-digest V4 #239 ******************************* _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME-DIGEST From ???@??? Mon Apr 12 09:27:54 1999 Received: from mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE (mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE [130.149.4.14]) by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA12619 for ; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 05:31:18 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from mail.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.15]) by mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10RSlh-00068k-00; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 05:31:17 +0200 Received: from coal.bg.tu-berlin.de by mail.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Mon, 29 Mar 1999 05:31:05 +0200 Received: from mail.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.15]) by mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10RSlS-00068g-00; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 05:31:02 +0200 Received: from tubkom.prz.tu-berlin.de by mail.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Mon, 29 Mar 1999 05:30:59 +0200 Received: from mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE (mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE [130.149.4.14]) by tubkom.prz.tu-berlin.de (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id FAA22156 for ; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 05:28:54 +0200 (MESZ) Received: from mail.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.15]) by mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10RSkw-00068S-01; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 05:30:30 +0200 Received: from server.indra.com by mail.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Mon, 29 Mar 1999 05:30:18 +0200 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.8.5/) with ESMTP id UAA10136; Sun, 28 Mar 1999 20:34:33 -0700 (MST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id UAA22197 for h-costume-digest-outgoing; Sun, 28 Mar 1999 20:28:51 -0700 (MST) Date: Sun, 28 Mar 1999 20:28:51 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199903290328.UAA22197@indra.com> From: owner-h-costume-digest@indra.com To: h-costume-digest@indra.com Subject: h-costume-digest V4 #240 Reply-To: h-costume-digest@indra.com Errors-To: owner-h-costume-digest@indra.com Precedence: bulk Status: O h-costume-digest Sunday, 28 March 1999 Volume 04 : Number 240 In this issue: Re: H-COST: Warning re Fabreeze Re: H-COST: Name That Portrait Hoax, was Re: H-COST: Warning re Fabreeze [sic] Re: H-COST: Warning re Fabreeze Re: Hoax, was Re: H-COST: Warning re Fabreeze [sic] H-COST: Ladies' Home Journal Ready H-COST: Jane vs Bo Re: H-COST: Warning re Fabreeze H-COST: Forgot one H-COST: The Midwife's Tale H-COST: elizabethan shoes H-COST: [sewinglist] Fabreeze (fwd) Re: H-COST: Warning re Fabreeze Repost of Hoax, was Re: H-COST: Warning re Fabreeze [sic] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Amanda Reeves" Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1999 15:38:52 -0600 Subject: Re: H-COST: Warning re Fabreeze - -Poster: "Amanda Reeves" Thank you so very much for this post. I had 2 containers of the stuff in my cabinet that I JUST went and "chunked" in the trash. I have dogs, cats AND birds.......I feel we got real lucky to have not used it very much yet! Grateful, Amanda Reeves (Texas) - ---------- > From: Sylvia Rognstad > To: historic costume list > Subject: H-COST: Warning re Fabreeze > Date: Saturday, March 27, 1999 10:49 AM > > > -Poster: Sylvia Rognstad > > Since I think the product called Fabreeze has been discussed on this list > before, I am forwarding a message I just got, for those of you who have > pets: > > > This is a message from the Veterinary Emergency Center in Needham > regarding > a product called febreze. > Febreze a new product that is used to get odors out of fabrics has > been causing deaths and illness in dogs and birds. There have been > multiple instances reported in the past few weeks of dogs and birds dying > after Febreze was used anywhere near them. Some dogs have only gotten > very ill, but some have died. Several birds have died as well. Febreze > contains zinc chloride, which is the culprit. If you have recently > sprayed > your dog's bed with this product, please wash it until you get all of the > Febreze out, or get your dog new bedding. Please pass the word along to > your > friends so we can prevent further deaths. > > > This was a notice from the Veterinary Emergency Center in Needham, > MA >> > > Sylvia R > Divinity Designs http://www.d-e-designs.com/divinity/ > 515 Manhattan Drive, #203 sylvia@netherworld.com > Boulder, CO 80303 USA complete catalog on website > > _________________________________________________________________ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Irene leNoir Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1999 21:06:25 -0500 Subject: Re: H-COST: Name That Portrait - -Poster: Irene leNoir >That's a fairly common style of necklace. There are quite a few portraits >of Robert Dudley, Earl of Leicester, wearing them, as well as other >gentlemen of the period. The (probably) van der Muelen portrait of him >wearing the killer doublet made of gold ribbons shows a necklace of >alternating clusters of multiple strands of pearls and garnet beads, wrapp= ed >twice around his neck, with the Lesser George depended from it. Could th= is >be the one? I suppose it could be, but then I don't really care. I'm interested in finding any portraits that show this style of necklace. Any references to websites (preferred) or books that contain them would be greatly appreciated. Jessica Clark SCA: Ir=E8ne leNoir irene@ici.net http://home.ici.net/~beowulf/jessica _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Joan M Jurancich Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1999 19:42:58 -0700 (MST) Subject: Hoax, was Re: H-COST: Warning re Fabreeze [sic] - -Poster: Joan M Jurancich This hoax warning has been extensively discussed on the Urban Legends Reference Page Message Board that can be found at http://www.snopes.com/ . This so-called warning is basically a foolish paranoid rant with no basis in fact. I have personally used Febreeze on carpets in my house; my two house cats are in perfect health. I wouldn't spray it *on* my cats, but, then, I wouldn't spray *any* housecleaning product on them. Joan Jurancich Sacramento, CA At 09:49 AM 03/27/1999 -0700, Sylvia Rognstad wrote: > >-Poster: Sylvia Rognstad > >Since I think the product called Fabreeze has been discussed on this list >before, I am forwarding a message I just got, for those of you who have >pets: > > >This is a message from the Veterinary Emergency Center in Needham >regarding >a product called febreze. >Febreze a new product that is used to get odors out of fabrics has >been causing deaths and illness in dogs and birds. There have been >multiple instances reported in the past few weeks of dogs and birds dying >after Febreze was used anywhere near them. Some dogs have only gotten >very ill, but some have died. Several birds have died as well. Febreze >contains zinc chloride, which is the culprit. If you have recently >sprayed >your dog's bed with this product, please wash it until you get all of the >Febreze out, or get your dog new bedding. Please pass the word along to >your >friends so we can prevent further deaths. > > >This was a notice from the Veterinary Emergency Center in Needham, >MA >> > >Sylvia R >Divinity Designs http://www.d-e-designs.com/divinity/ >515 Manhattan Drive, #203 sylvia@netherworld.com >Boulder, CO 80303 USA complete catalog on website > > _________________________________________________________________ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME > Joan Jurancich Sacramento, CA joanj@quiknet.com _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Joan M Jurancich Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1999 19:50:44 -0700 (MST) Subject: Re: H-COST: Warning re Fabreeze - -Poster: Joan M Jurancich I'm afraid you have wasted a good product, Amanda. This anonymous "warning" is a hoax. Check out the Urban Legends Reference Page Message Board at http://www.snopes.com. It's been a recent (and repeated) thread of discussion. I use Febreeze (note that the original "warning" didn't even spell the name correctly) and I have cats. Just don't spray it *on* the cats (which it tells you on the warning label)! Joan Jurancich Sacramento, CA At 03:38 PM 03/27/1999 -0600, Amanda Reeves wrote: > >-Poster: "Amanda Reeves" > >Thank you so very much for this post. I had 2 containers of the stuff in my >cabinet that I JUST went and "chunked" in the trash. > >I have dogs, cats AND birds.......I feel we got real lucky to have not used >it very much yet! > >Grateful, >Amanda Reeves >(Texas) _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Sylvia Rognstad Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1999 20:47:41 -0700 (MST) Subject: Re: Hoax, was Re: H-COST: Warning re Fabreeze [sic] - -Poster: Sylvia Rognstad > > -Poster: Joan M Jurancich > > This hoax warning has been extensively discussed on the Urban Legends > Reference Page Message Board that can be found at http://www.snopes.com/ . > This so-called warning is basically a foolish paranoid rant with no basis in > fact. I have personally used Febreeze on carpets in my house; my two house > cats are in perfect health. I wouldn't spray it *on* my cats, but, then, I > wouldn't spray *any* housecleaning product on them. > That's good to know. It constantly amazes me the increasing number of hoaxes that this internet thing perpetuates. I'm glad there is usually at least one person on a list that is knowledgeable about them when they arise. Thanks. Sylvia _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Penny E. Ladnier" Date: Sun, 28 Mar 1999 01:18:37 -0500 (EST) Subject: H-COST: Ladies' Home Journal Ready - -Poster: "Penny E. Ladnier" All the fashion articles from the Sept. 1893 issue of Ladies' Home Journal are up on my Costume Gallery Website. You may find the home page at http://www.costumegallery.com/LHJ/Sept_1893/Magazine.htm This issue includes the following articles: **The New Colors and Materials **The Woman of Forty (how to dress when one is forty or older, plus how stout or thin women are to dress) **Hints on Home Dressmaking (an advice column for fashion trends and construction methods) **The Small Belongings of Dress (another advice column about fashion trends in accessories, including millinery, gloves, shoes, ribbons, and belts) Have fun reading...Penny Penny E. Dunlap Ladnier The Costume Gallery Website http://www.costumegallery.com _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Penny E. Ladnier" Date: Sun, 28 Mar 1999 01:31:54 -0500 (EST) Subject: H-COST: Jane vs Bo - -Poster: "Penny E. Ladnier" An interesting bit of Fashion/Movie Trivia I discovered tonight... Remember that Bo Derek made the corn-row hairstyle fashionable in 1979 when the film "10" came out. Tonight, I was watching a REALLY bad film called "Sinbad and the Eye of the Tiger" and Jane Seymour was wearing the same corn-row hairstyle. This film was made in 1977! Oh! Please don't watch "Sinbad" for the costumes, it is very poor example (the budget must have been small). It is hard to believe that Sinbad's director is the same one as "Clash of the Titans". The shows host said that Titans has reached cult status. Who would have thought. Later...Penny Penny E. Dunlap Ladnier The Costume Gallery Website http://www.costumegallery.com _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: cynthia j ley Date: Sun, 28 Mar 1999 01:38:35 EST Subject: Re: H-COST: Warning re Fabreeze - -Poster: cynthia j ley There is an excellent product out for getting rid of pet odors called See Spot Go. (I'm not kidding!) We buys ours at PetCo. Great stuff for removing pet stains and odors from darned near anything. Arlys, housebreaking a dog ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Penny E. Ladnier" Date: Sun, 28 Mar 1999 01:43:37 -0500 (EST) Subject: H-COST: Forgot one - -Poster: "Penny E. Ladnier" I forgot to tell you about one more article on the 1893 Ladies Home Journal website. It is called "Dressing Our Little Women". It is about how to dress your little girls from ages 3-7. This article also includes underpinnings and outerwear. Good night...Penny Penny E. Dunlap Ladnier The Costume Gallery Website http://www.costumegallery.com _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Joan M Jurancich Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1999 23:54:51 -0700 (MST) Subject: H-COST: The Midwife's Tale - -Poster: Joan M Jurancich Wow! This morning I saw, for the first time, the PBS production "The Midwife's Tale", taken from the book of the same name. I thought the casting, costuming, and all were really first rate. The videotape is available through the PBS web site at http://www.pbs.org/ (about $20, I was told). If I had a TV, I'd certainly want a copy of this one. Joan Jurancich Sacramento, CA joanj@quiknet.com _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Andrea Gideon" Date: Sun, 28 Mar 1999 09:56:54 -0800 Subject: H-COST: elizabethan shoes - -Poster: "Andrea Gideon" Any one know where I can find some good documentation for Elizabethan men's shoes? Andrea _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Sylvia Rognstad Date: Sun, 28 Mar 1999 09:07:24 -0700 (MST) Subject: H-COST: [sewinglist] Fabreeze (fwd) - -Poster: Sylvia Rognstad Ok guys, I just received this message from another email list. Will someone please post the message again which proved that this is indeed a hoax? Date: Sun, 28 Mar 1999 09:28:04 EST From: Michell13@aol.com Reply-To: sewinglist@onelist.com To: sewinglist@onelist.com Subject: [sewinglist] Fabreeze From: Michell13@aol.com I am a veterinary tech, and I assure you that this is NOT a hoax. Our office has seen at least 30 problems come in with regards to this product. The company is spreading rumors that this is a hoax. Please investigate this for yourselves. Michelle _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Amanda Reeves" Date: Sun, 28 Mar 1999 16:31:32 -0600 Subject: Re: H-COST: Warning re Fabreeze - -Poster: "Amanda Reeves" Ok, OK....I'll go get it out of the trash.......but now I'm leary and may not reach for it on my shelf............ :-) Amanda - ---------- > From: cynthia j ley > To: h-costume@indra.com > Cc: h-costume@indra.com > Subject: Re: H-COST: Warning re Fabreeze > Date: Sunday, March 28, 1999 12:38 AM > > > -Poster: cynthia j ley > > There is an excellent product out for getting rid of pet odors called See > Spot Go. (I'm not kidding!) We buys ours at PetCo. Great stuff for > removing pet stains and odors from darned near anything. > > > Arlys, housebreaking a dog > > > ___________________________________________________________________ > You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. > Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html > or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] > _________________________________________________________________ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Joan M Jurancich Date: Sun, 28 Mar 1999 20:28:44 -0700 (MST) Subject: Repost of Hoax, was Re: H-COST: Warning re Fabreeze [sic] - -Poster: Joan M Jurancich >-Poster: Joan M Jurancich > >This hoax warning has been extensively discussed on the Urban Legends >Reference Page Message Board that can be found at http://www.snopes.com/ . >This so-called warning is basically a foolish paranoid rant with no basis in >fact. I have personally used Febreze [note how the "warning" doesn't even spell >the product name correctly] on carpets in my house; my two house >cats are in perfect health. I wouldn't spray it *on* my cats, but, then, I >wouldn't spray *any* housecleaning product on them. > >Joan Jurancich >Sacramento, CA > >At 09:49 AM 03/27/1999 -0700, Sylvia Rognstad wrote: >> >>-Poster: Sylvia Rognstad >> >>Since I think the product called Fabreeze has been discussed on this list >>before, I am forwarding a message I just got, for those of you who have >>pets: >> >> >>This is a message from the Veterinary Emergency Center in Needham >>regarding >>a product called febreze. >>Febreze a new product that is used to get odors out of fabrics has >>been causing deaths and illness in dogs and birds. There have been >>multiple instances reported in the past few weeks of dogs and birds dying >>after Febreze was used anywhere near them. Some dogs have only gotten >>very ill, but some have died. Several birds have died as well. Febreze >>contains zinc chloride, which is the culprit. If you have recently >>sprayed >>your dog's bed with this product, please wash it until you get all of the >>Febreze out, or get your dog new bedding. Please pass the word along to >>your >>friends so we can prevent further deaths. >> > >>This was a notice from the Veterinary Emergency Center in Needham, >>MA >> >> >>Sylvia R >>Divinity Designs http://www.d-e-designs.com/divinity/ >>515 Manhattan Drive, #203 sylvia@netherworld.com >>Boulder, CO 80303 USA complete catalog on website >> >> _________________________________________________________________ >> To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com >> with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME >> >Joan Jurancich >Sacramento, CA >joanj@quiknet.com > > _________________________________________________________________ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME > Joan Jurancich Sacramento, CA joanj@quiknet.com _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ End of h-costume-digest V4 #240 ******************************* _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME-DIGEST From ???@??? Mon Apr 12 09:27:56 1999 Received: from mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE (mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE [130.149.4.14]) by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA22817 for ; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 19:14:55 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from mail.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.15]) by mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10Rfck-0005wJ-00; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 19:14:54 +0200 Received: from coal.bg.tu-berlin.de by mail.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Mon, 29 Mar 1999 19:14:52 +0200 Received: from tubkom.prz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.62.9] ident=root) by mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10Rfcf-0005wD-00; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 19:14:49 +0200 Received: from mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE (mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE [130.149.4.14]) by tubkom.prz.tu-berlin.de (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA28466 for ; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 19:13:09 +0200 (MESZ) Received: from mail.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.15]) by mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10Rfcc-0005wA-00; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 19:14:46 +0200 Received: from server.indra.com by mail.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Mon, 29 Mar 1999 19:13:53 +0200 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.8.5/) with ESMTP id KAA28676; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 10:19:18 -0700 (MST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id KAA07552 for h-costume-digest-outgoing; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 10:12:18 -0700 (MST) Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 10:12:18 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199903291712.KAA07552@indra.com> From: owner-h-costume-digest@indra.com To: h-costume-digest@indra.com Subject: h-costume-digest V4 #241 Reply-To: h-costume-digest@indra.com Errors-To: owner-h-costume-digest@indra.com Precedence: bulk Status: O h-costume-digest Monday, 29 March 1999 Volume 04 : Number 241 In this issue: Re: H-COST: [sewinglist] Fabreeze (fwd) H-COST: Re: Febreze H-COST: New MB Pattern Re: H-COST: Re: Febreze H-COST: fabreze thing, ASPCA article url Re: H-COST: Re: Febreze Re: H-COST: OT eating disorders (was: emaciated actresses) Re: H-COST: What blondes should wear (was: oscar dresses) Re: H-COST: Renaissance Lace and Embroidery Re: H-COST: corset gap Re: H-COST: corset gap Re: H-COST: corset gap Re: H-COST: What blondes should wear (was: oscar dresses) Re: H-COST: What blondes should wear (was: oscar dresses) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Joan M Jurancich Date: Sun, 28 Mar 1999 20:33:40 -0700 (MST) Subject: Re: H-COST: [sewinglist] Fabreeze (fwd) - -Poster: Joan M Jurancich I have reposted the message I sent yesterday. What I'd like to know is what the people claiming problems were *doing* with the Febreze. If they sprayed it on the *animals*, instead of on fabric, then they can't follow instructions very well. I've never had any problems. Joan Jurancich Sacramento, CA At 09:07 AM 03/28/1999 -0700, Sylvia Rognstad wrote: > >-Poster: Sylvia Rognstad > >Ok guys, I just received this message from another email list. Will >someone please post the message again which proved that this is indeed a >hoax? > > >Date: Sun, 28 Mar 1999 09:28:04 EST >From: Michell13@aol.com >Reply-To: sewinglist@onelist.com >To: sewinglist@onelist.com >Subject: [sewinglist] Fabreeze > >From: Michell13@aol.com > > >I am a veterinary tech, and I assure you that this is NOT a hoax. Our office >has seen at least 30 problems come in with regards to this product. The >company is spreading rumors that this is a hoax. Please investigate this for >yourselves. > >Michelle > > > _________________________________________________________________ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME > Joan Jurancich Sacramento, CA joanj@quiknet.com _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: " Firefly" Date: Sun, 28 Mar 1999 21:05:53 -0800 Subject: H-COST: Re: Febreze - -Poster: " Firefly" Febreze is made by Procter and Gamble, so I went to their website to check it out. It does seem that this is a hoax, although there may be some sensitivity of birds to this produce (although no bird has conclusively had a mortal reaction to it). It no longer contains zinc chloride, so that concern is also gone. For more info, there is a product website addressing pet concerns: http://www.febreze.com/pet.html Well, considering I had been spraying a "problem" pet area with Malodex (a odor neutralizer used in hospitals for incontinent patients) this really sounds great! Can't wait to get my hands on a bottle (though I wonder how I could use it as a costuming inspiration, since that's what we're really supposed to talk about)! Come to think of it...how did the conversation ever turn to this??? HotBot - Search smarter. http://www.hotbot.com _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: " Firefly" Date: Sun, 28 Mar 1999 21:25:43 -0800 Subject: H-COST: New MB Pattern - -Poster: " Firefly" Hi--I am making the view "C" from La Mode Bagatelle's new Artistic Reform Teagown Pattern (viewable, if you are curious at http://www.lamodebagatelle.com). Anyways, just finished the underdress, which has a decidedly Regency look to it (question no. 1: is this evidence of the bias/orientation of the pattern drafters or is this actually the style of this decidedly Victorian fashion?). I have some pics of my work in progress at http://pages.hotbot.com/travel/fire.fly/WIP1.html (I will probably have pictures of the finished gown later in the week). Yesterday I did a muslin of the overgown bodice and found the pattern ill fitting and utterly unalterable--so I finally ended up drafting a new pattern this evening. I have rather conventional size 10 measurements --though I wonder (as a girlfriend pointed out) whether the pattern tester may have had less ordinary measurements. Has anyone made this pattern--and more to the point--view c overdress (question no. 2)? Anyways, I would be interested in anyone else's opinion/experiences with this pattern. Incidently, I do like the results I have got so far--the sleeves on the underdress are luscious (though granted, a lot of work). Despite the setback with the overdress bodice, I still think it is a cool pattern. HotBot - Search smarter. http://www.hotbot.com _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Joan M Jurancich Date: Sun, 28 Mar 1999 22:29:29 -0700 (MST) Subject: Re: H-COST: Re: Febreze - -Poster: Joan M Jurancich At 09:05 PM 03/28/1999 -0800, Firefly wrote: > >-Poster: " Firefly" > >Febreze is made by Procter and Gamble, so I went to their website to check it out. It does seem that this is a hoax, although there may be some sensitivity of birds to this produce (although no bird has conclusively had a mortal reaction to it). It no longer contains zinc chloride, so that concern is also gone. For more info, there is a product website addressing pet concerns: > >http://www.febreze.com/pet.html > >Well, considering I had been spraying a "problem" pet area with Malodex (a odor neutralizer used in hospitals for incontinent patients) this really sounds great! Can't wait to get my hands on a bottle (though I wonder how I could use it as a costuming inspiration, since that's what we're really supposed to talk about)! Come to think of it...how did the conversation ever turn to this??? My first introduction to Febreze was as a deordorizer for Renaissance Faire costumes. After each weekend, I turn the garments inside out, spray the inside of the costume with Febreze, then let it air before putting it away for the week. It helps to reduce the deterioration and the odor build-up from sweating into your outfit (I can soak through enough *all* the layers to make the outside garment damp). And reduces the number of times you need to dry-clean (or wash) it. So it *is* costume-related . Joan Jurancich Sacramento, CA joanj@quiknet.com _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Heather Law Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 00:04:27 -0800 Subject: H-COST: fabreze thing, ASPCA article url - -Poster: Heather Law Health to all, including pets: This post is in *no way* intended to insult anyone, including Michelle, who oughtta know what she's talking about... Just some add'l snooping around. The http://www.snopes.com/ site has this rumor marked as "unverifiable", with a *white* bullet, meaning We Don't Know; see below: (from their site:) > A green bullet identifies a true story or a legend that is based > in whole or in part on an actual occurrence. > > A red bullet denotes a false claim or statement. > > A yellow bullet denotes items of undetermined veracity and/or > origin. > > A white bullet marks a legend that is unverifiable -- it may or > may not have been based on an actual occurrence. If you want to do more research, the NAPCC/ASPCA has their opinion on it at http://www.napcc.aspca.org/febreze.htm If it were me, I'd just change products to be safe if I had pets; if OTOH the pets showed no reaction to the stuff, I'd figure it was o.k. (maybe have a vet do a "complete physical" on the pet to be sure) YIS, Heather _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Robin Netherton Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 08:55:01 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: H-COST: Re: Febreze - -Poster: Robin Netherton On Sun, 28 Mar 1999, Firefly wrote: > Febreze is made by Procter and Gamble, so I went to their website to > check it out. It does seem that this is a hoax... I don't know whether this applies in this case, but it's worth noting that product-related hoax warnings are sometimes started by 'net businesses offering "safe" or "natural" alternatives. I've seen similar hoax warnings about commercial toothpaste, shampoo, sunscreen, tampons, etc. The idea is that concerned consumers who get these warnings through email will then turn to the 'net to try to find a safe alternative -- and if they punch in the likely keywords, they'll reach the competitor's site, which of course reproduces the warning and touts its product as being free of whatever the offending chemical is. I haven't done a similar search for alternatives to Febreeze, but that would make an interesting project. - --Robin _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Danielle Nunn Date: Sun, 28 Mar 1999 13:36:28 -0500 Subject: Re: H-COST: OT eating disorders (was: emaciated actresses) - -Poster: Danielle Nunn Greetings, >On the other hand, how many people really pay much attention to that image, in >terms of actually overdieting and overexercising? OK, I know some people are >anorexic or bulemic, but not the average person. We all know the image is >unreal--not everyone is 18, rich, and hanging around the woods in evening >gowns. Actually, I think you'd be amazed. *If* I'm remembering my statistics correctly, I believe it's up to 3 out of 5 young women nowadays are eating disordered. And studies show that popular media images DO have an effect on self-image whether we intellectually understand that they are unrealistic images or not. Just my two cents on a touchy and off-topic subject. Danielle _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Danielle Nunn Date: Sun, 28 Mar 1999 13:45:09 -0500 Subject: Re: H-COST: What blondes should wear (was: oscar dresses) - -Poster: Danielle Nunn Greetings, >Okay, are you my lost twin? *grin* I am also a natural blonde and I >refuse to wear anything even remotely pink... even after I dyed my hair, >it looks awful... We must be twin daughters of different mothers! It's a shame about your hair, what colour did you go? >I have often thought blondes should wear darker colors to offset their >light complexions. >From my experience, I have to agree. I think a lot of blondes look stunning in black (or navy or burgundy/maroon depending on skin shade). I used to wear mostly black and boy did it set off my hair. I must say I liked the attention it used to attract. Maybe someday I'll go back to being a blonde. The funny things I still think of myself as blonde. Cheers, Danielle _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Danielle Nunn Date: Sun, 28 Mar 1999 13:51:36 -0500 Subject: Re: H-COST: Renaissance Lace and Embroidery - -Poster: Danielle Nunn Greetings, I don't seem to have recieved the beginning posts to this thread but I do do lace. Here is a couple of 16th century sources: Le Pompe, 1559. Ruth Bean ed. & pub. Carlton, Bedford, England. 1983. This is one of two surviving bobbin lace pattern books from the 16th= century. N=FCw Modelbuch. Published by Paul Haupt Berne, Stuttgart. 1986. This is the other surviving bobbin lace pattern book from the 16th century. It was written by an anonymous woman. German Renaissance Patterns for Embroidery. Curious Works Press, Austin, 1994. A facisimile copy of Nicolas Bas=E9e's New Modelbuch of 1568. Renaissance Patterns for Lace, Embroidery, and Needlepoint. Dover Publications Inc., New York, 1971. An unabridged facsimile of the "Singuliers et Nouveaux Pourtraicts" of 1587 by Federico Vinciolo. I hope this helps. Cheers, Danielle _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Danielle Nunn Date: Sun, 28 Mar 1999 13:59:34 -0500 Subject: Re: H-COST: corset gap - -Poster: Danielle Nunn Greetings, >What about Elizabethan or Baroque corsets? Should they have a 2- to 4->inch gap too, or are we talking about a very specific time range here? Well, I frequently wear an Elizabethan style "pair of bodies" and mine has about a two inch gap. You need it for weight fluctuations. However, the corset was still fitted specifically for me, the gap could in no way customize a corset of this period for someone. About measurments. I find that the corset will compress my chest measurements and ENLARGE my waist measurement. These things aren't designed to give you a smaller waist, just a flat front. Cheers, Danielle _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Merouda the True of Bornover Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 08:52:28 -0800 Subject: Re: H-COST: corset gap - -Poster: Merouda the True of Bornover I was recently fitted for my first Elizabethan corset. It was explained that the 2 inch gap, while it helped for weight fluctuations, it really kept the boning from being directly against your spine. Lets you keep some mobility I was told. > >What about Elizabethan or Baroque corsets? Should they have a 2- to > 4->inch gap too, or are we talking about a very specific time range here? > > Well, I frequently wear an Elizabethan style "pair of bodies" and mine has > about a two inch gap. You need it for weight fluctuations. - -- Cynthia Long Merouda the True of Bornover Barony of Madrone Kingdom of An Tir _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Sarah Toney" Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 11:59:36 -0500 Subject: Re: H-COST: corset gap - -Poster: "Sarah Toney" Not only that. I make Elizabethan corsets sometimes for people and if the boning is on your spine, it can "bend" the spine in the wrong direction. This is very uncomfortable, and is especially important to note for people with back problems anyway. The strongest corsets can be as strong as some of the back braces out there. Made correctly, a corset can be one of the most comfortable pieces of clothing you own. In fact, I have one I wear often in the "mundane" world (the non-reenactment world) just because it is comfortable. My 2 copper, Sarah >I was recently fitted for my first Elizabethan corset. It was explained that >the 2 inch gap, while it helped for weight fluctuations, it really kept the >boning from being directly against your spine. Lets you keep some mobility I >was told. > >> >What about Elizabethan or Baroque corsets? Should they have a 2- to >> 4->inch gap too, or are we talking about a very specific time range here? >> >> Well, I frequently wear an Elizabethan style "pair of bodies" and mine has >> about a two inch gap. You need it for weight fluctuations. > >-- >Cynthia Long >Merouda the True of Bornover >Barony of Madrone >Kingdom of An Tir > > > _________________________________________________________________ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME > _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Sylvia Rognstad Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 09:52:17 -0700 (MST) Subject: Re: H-COST: What blondes should wear (was: oscar dresses) - -Poster: Sylvia Rognstad > > -Poster: Danielle Nunn > >I have often thought blondes should wear darker colors to offset their > >light complexions. > > >From my experience, I have to agree. I think a lot of blondes look > stunning in black (or navy or burgundy/maroon depending on skin shade). I What colors one looks good in depends on more than hair color. Like complexion, eye color, body type. I'm a natural blonde and look best in pastels. I love pink. I also look good in red. I also like beiges and earthy colors. I hate wearing other bright or dark colors except for navy and black occasionally. And I'm not just going by what I think I look good in, but by what others tell me repeatedly.> Bottom line is there are no hard and fast rules. Too many variations. Now, to relate this to historical costume, here's a question: do you think that the predominant colors of certain periods in the past had anything to do with hair and skin color? Granted, women couldnt change their hair color as easily as they do now, but there were periods when 1 hair color became more fashionable, due to influences of current rulers, like Elizabeth I. And the blonde craze of the Italian Renaissance. And what about the white face look of the 18th century? Sylvia R Divinity Designs http://www.d-e-designs.com/divinity/ 515 Manhattan Drive, #203 sylvia@netherworld.com Boulder, CO 80303 USA complete catalog on website _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Sarah Toney" Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 12:11:50 -0500 Subject: Re: H-COST: What blondes should wear (was: oscar dresses) - -Poster: "Sarah Toney" I think it was a comination of things... hair color and skin tone being one of them. Also, though, I think it had a lot to do with what colors were available and how expensive they were at the time. Often, it depended on what was used to make the color. For example, (though this is not a "costuming" example), if you look at many of the old cathedrals and the stained glass windows, often there was a decided lack of true red and true yellow in these windows. Why? Because red and yellow glass is made with a certain amount of gold in it, which is costly. The same goes for fabrics... how much did they have to pay for it in the first place. Now for the very upper class, this wasn't as much of a big deal, but there were very many people who tried to "live above their means", and it would have been a concern then. Sarah >Now, to relate this to historical costume, here's a question: do you >think that the predominant colors of certain periods in the past had >anything to do with hair and skin color? Granted, women couldnt change >their hair color as easily as they do now, but there were periods when 1 >hair color became more fashionable, due to influences of current rulers, >like Elizabeth I. And the blonde craze of the Italian Renaissance. And >what about the white face look of the 18th century? > >Sylvia R >Divinity Designs http://www.d-e-designs.com/divinity/ >515 Manhattan Drive, #203 sylvia@netherworld.com >Boulder, CO 80303 USA complete catalog on website > > _________________________________________________________________ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME > _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ End of h-costume-digest V4 #241 ******************************* _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME-DIGEST From ???@??? Mon Apr 12 09:27:56 1999 Received: from mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE (mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE [130.149.4.14]) by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA24716 for ; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 00:18:25 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from mail.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.15]) by mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10RkMS-0002xL-00; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 00:18:24 +0200 Received: from coal.bg.tu-berlin.de by mail.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Tue, 30 Mar 1999 00:18:22 +0200 Received: from mail.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.15]) by mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10RkMN-0002xJ-00; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 00:18:19 +0200 Received: from tubkom.prz.tu-berlin.de by mail.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Tue, 30 Mar 1999 00:18:17 +0200 Received: from mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE (mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE [130.149.4.14]) by tubkom.prz.tu-berlin.de (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA00549 for ; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 00:16:34 +0200 (MESZ) Received: from mail.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.15]) by mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10RkMF-0002xF-00; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 00:18:11 +0200 Received: from server.indra.com by mail.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Tue, 30 Mar 1999 00:17:39 +0200 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.8.5/) with ESMTP id PAA27137; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 15:23:34 -0700 (MST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id PAA10199 for h-costume-digest-outgoing; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 15:16:12 -0700 (MST) Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 15:16:12 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199903292216.PAA10199@indra.com> From: owner-h-costume-digest@indra.com To: h-costume-digest@indra.com Subject: h-costume-digest V4 #242 Reply-To: h-costume-digest@indra.com Errors-To: owner-h-costume-digest@indra.com Precedence: bulk Status: O h-costume-digest Monday, 29 March 1999 Volume 04 : Number 242 In this issue: H-COST: FO: 1850's dress Re: H-COST: FO! Victorian Underpinnings, Sumptuously Sized H-COST: H-cost: Wrapper variations Re: H-COST: Men in corsets Re: H-COST: [sewinglist] Fabreeze (fwd) Re: H-COST: [sewinglist] Fabreeze (fwd) H-COST: 12th century embroidery Re: H-COST: FO! Victorian Underpinnings, Sumptuously Sized Re: H-COST: 12th century embroidery [none] Re: H-COST: [sewinglist] Fabreeze (fwd) Re: H-COST: [sewinglist] Fabreeze (fwd) H-COST: Re: Re: H-COST: Name That Portrait ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Margo Anderson Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 09:05:59 -0800 (PST) Subject: H-COST: FO: 1850's dress - -Poster: Margo Anderson I just finished and wore a late 1850's day dress. It's made of plaid Indian madras, in turquoise, rust red, and navy. It has a fan front bodice, triple flounced skirt, and bell sleeves edged with a frill. I learned that a flounced skirt takes a HUGE amount of fabric. I mounted my frills on a plain muslin base and the skirt still took over ten yards of 44" fabric. (I'm very tall and large, but still) The period method of stitching over a piping cord to make frills is fabulous, I love it! I also really like the fan front. Aside from being flattering, it's the best way to handle plaid because you don't end up with darts interupting the pattern. On the other hand, the madras fabric is evil. It snags, it stretches, and it's woven at such uneven tensions that I couldn't match the plaids because they vary in size by up to an inch. I have two more ten yard pieces of the stuff that I was planning to use for costumes, but after this experience, they're going to become curtains. Or maybe dust cloths. I cheated and made my undersleeves with an elastic band at the upper arm. Mistake! They kept falling down all day. My next pair will have buttons or ties to attach them to my dress. I also made a farbly bonnet out of a straw hat, which needs to be replaced ASAP, although I did like the dried apple rose I used to trim it. I wore this dress to a public event at a state park, the same one Joan was at. I second her opinion on "The Midwife's Tale": there aren't many 90 minute movies I'd sit through in a corset! Margo Anderson _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Margo Anderson Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 11:52:24 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: H-COST: FO! Victorian Underpinnings, Sumptuously Sized - -Poster: Margo Anderson At 11:21 PM 3/24/99 -0600, you wrote: > >-Poster: Kat & Kent > >Congrats!! Sounds great! I'm wondering exactly what you used for >boning (not having a handy source of corset-making supplies and being >unsure if I want to spend a lot of money ordering stuff). My husband >asked if the weed wacker line wouldn't be too flexible to hold up. > This corset was mostly boned with half inch spring steel. this is the same as the spring steel bones that come in sizes. Since I also don't have a handy source for boning and hate having to wait for mail order mid-project, I ordered a one pound roll of the stuff from Greenberg and Hammer. It cost $14, and there was enough to make an Elizabethan corset for a small woman and a Victorian corset for a large woman, plus extensive boning in two bodices. I tipped the ends with tool dip, but I don't like the way it looks, so I'll probably break down and pay a small fortune for a jar of the official stuff. I only used the weed wacker line on the very curved seams that the spring steel wouldn't work on. Your husband is right, it is too flexible to do any serious support work. But then, so is spiral boning. I only use spirals for stiffening an already tightly fitted garment, not to provide support. Since I don't know how long the weed wacker line will hold up, I wouldn't recommend it if you have time to order spirals. My other objection to it is that it's day glo orange, and it shows through the casings on the inside enough to bother me, since I'll be using this corset as a hand-around in my classes. Margo Anderson _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Margo Anderson Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 12:08:52 -0800 (PST) Subject: H-COST: H-cost: Wrapper variations - -Poster: Margo Anderson I'm planning to make myself an 1850's work dress, for wear in the docent program at Marshall Discovery Park. (The site of the beginning of the California Gold Rush) I would like to use Past Pattern's wrapper or work dress patterns, except for one problem. At the event I attended yesterday, %95 of the participants were wearing these two dresses, with the only variations in the fabric and the piping color. Now, I am incredibly grateful to Sandra Altman for her work. Having been going to this park all my life, I've seen the days of docents dressed Jessica McClintock sundresses and denim prairie dresses, and this is a HUGE improvement. However, I don't believe that the women of the 1850's would have been dressed in quite so uniform a style. I would like to come up with some variations on these patterns that would make it look as if the women of Coloma hadn't all passed the same pattern around. Does anyone have ideas for changes that could be made without gussying the dresses up too much for work dresses? Margo Anderson _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Eric Praetzel Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 15:05:30 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: H-COST: Men in corsets - -Poster: Eric Praetzel > -Poster: Vincent Ho > > -Poster: "KATE M BUNTING" > > Ninni - I seem to remember humorous references to men wearing corsets (to > > give them an elegant figure) in "Pearsons' Magazine" from around 1910, > > Anyone has information concerning corsets for men, such as patterns, They are very easy to make but chances are that you will not get it right the first time and then you can carve to fit. I made them because I found it a pain to bone my doublets. I've swung between boning the doublets, wearing corsets and am now swinging back. I don't need extensive boning (perhaps 5 bones for the entire front) and I don't really like wearing the extra 2 layers of fabric. Also my corsets have been thrown together from whatever fabric I had kicking around so they are quite visable thru the arm-holes or any undone buttons. I started off with a tight coteharde pattern (6 panel) and used that. I've also used the basic 4 panel doublet pattern to make corsets. As many of the women have said; cut the corset so that it ends above your waist or you'll find yourself getting stabbed by the bones. I have not been hampered by historical correctness (ie I can't point to actual evidence that men wore these things so I take lis. with how I make them) so I happily make mine with a single side-lacing design. Back lacing is impossible for a single guy and front lacing gets in the way of the bones; so side lacing it was! What I have not done yet is a full-boned version. I'm quite partial to the smooth look of plenty of bones stacked beside each other but have yet to try it. Once I started carving my corset to get it to fit properly; it drove me to tear appart my older doublets so that they fit well. In all cases I made them too long and they were covering the codpiece or kinking at the waist. So, toss together a mockup, wear it and carve it to fit! - Eric http://sca.uwaterloo.ca _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Mara Riley Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 15:58:55 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: H-COST: [sewinglist] Fabreeze (fwd) - -Poster: Mara Riley There's a rumor that the Febreze hoax was started by a competitor. Whether that's true or not, I can't say... anyway, it was discussed not long ago on a dog-related list I'm on. The chemicals used in Febreze aren't harmful to animals. (What, MY dog smell funny? Naaah... that's just the ea de dead squirrel parfum she picked up at the local doggie-mart...) Mara On Sun, 28 Mar 1999, Joan M Jurancich wrote: > > -Poster: Joan M Jurancich > > I have reposted the message I sent yesterday. What I'd like to know is what > the people claiming problems were *doing* with the Febreze. If they sprayed > it on the *animals*, instead of on fabric, then they can't follow > instructions very well. I've never had any problems. > > Joan Jurancich > Sacramento, CA > > At 09:07 AM 03/28/1999 -0700, Sylvia Rognstad wrote: > > > >-Poster: Sylvia Rognstad > > > >Ok guys, I just received this message from another email list. Will > >someone please post the message again which proved that this is indeed a > >hoax? > > > > > >Date: Sun, 28 Mar 1999 09:28:04 EST > >From: Michell13@aol.com > >Reply-To: sewinglist@onelist.com > >To: sewinglist@onelist.com > >Subject: [sewinglist] Fabreeze > > > >From: Michell13@aol.com > > > > > >I am a veterinary tech, and I assure you that this is NOT a hoax. Our office > >has seen at least 30 problems come in with regards to this product. The > >company is spreading rumors that this is a hoax. Please investigate this for > >yourselves. > > > >Michelle > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME > > > Joan Jurancich > Sacramento, CA > joanj@quiknet.com > > _________________________________________________________________ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME > _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Sarah Toney" Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 16:03:10 -0500 Subject: Re: H-COST: [sewinglist] Fabreeze (fwd) - -Poster: "Sarah Toney" Okay, I must know... what is Fabreeze? _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: CDepner26@webtv.net (Harold Hensley) Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 16:17:49 -0500 (EST) Subject: H-COST: 12th century embroidery - -Poster: CDepner26@webtv.net (Harold Hensley) Help! I'm looking for examples of 12th century embroidery for a project I'm working on. I'm looking for a fairly simple pattern to follow. I've only been able to find one web site that shows examples. Any help would be appreciated. C. Depner _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Sarah Toney" Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 15:38:42 -0500 Subject: Re: H-COST: FO! Victorian Underpinnings, Sumptuously Sized - -Poster: "Sarah Toney" >bodices. I tipped the ends with tool dip, but I don't like the way it >looks, so I'll probably break down and pay a small fortune for a jar of the >official stuff. The boning I use comes already cased and works well enough that you don't really have to "tip" it with anything... you just sew horizontally across the top and bottom of the piece. Now, this is probably cheating and not nearly as authentic as some would like, but I can put boning in an entire corset in about 45 minutes from start to finish... this I like. _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Merouda the True of Bornover Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 13:29:37 -0800 Subject: Re: H-COST: 12th century embroidery - -Poster: Merouda the True of Bornover One of the problems is that there isn't much to go on. Some ecclesiastical embroidery exists from that time but as far as I know of no embroidered garments. It would help to know which country you are interested in as the styles varied greatly from country to county. The best book I can recommend is only available at University libraries and through Inter Library Loan. It is called _A Pictorial History of Embroidery_ by Marie Schuette. It is available for sale at times but is out of print and rarely sells for less than $250US. I recommend thinking of vines and acanthus leaves. Also check out Illuminated Manuscripts for ideas of popular design themes of the time. FWIW, Cynthia > Help! I'm looking for examples of 12th century embroidery for a project > I'm working on. I'm looking for a fairly simple pattern to follow. > I've only been able to find one web site that shows examples. Any help > would be appreciated. - -- Cynthia Long Merouda the True of Bornover Barony of Madrone Kingdom of An Tir _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Sarah Toney" Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 16:33:10 -0500 Subject: [none] - -Poster: "Sarah Toney" Okay, I am looking for any place on the internet that sells patterns.... specifically medieval womens dresses and mens breeches. Help! I am having a huge problem with sizings for people at the moment and hope a couple of well placed patterns will help. Anyone? Sarah _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Joan M Jurancich Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 14:54:41 -0700 (MST) Subject: Re: H-COST: [sewinglist] Fabreeze (fwd) - -Poster: Joan M Jurancich At 04:03 PM 03/29/1999 -0500, Sarah Toney wrote: > >-Poster: "Sarah Toney" > > >Okay, I must know... what is Fabreeze? > It's a misspelling of "Febreze", a product to deodorize *fabric* items (furniture, carpeting, clothing, etc.). It comes in a spritz bottle. It's not a perfume, but actually promotes the breakdown of odors from pets, food spills, human sweat, pet or child (or adult) "accidents", etc. In my experience it works pretty well. Joan Jurancich Sacramento, CA joanj@quiknet.com _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Joan M Jurancich Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 14:54:41 -0700 (MST) Subject: Re: H-COST: [sewinglist] Fabreeze (fwd) - -Poster: Joan M Jurancich At 04:03 PM 03/29/1999 -0500, Sarah Toney wrote: > >-Poster: "Sarah Toney" > > >Okay, I must know... what is Fabreeze? > It's a misspelling of "Febreze", a product to deodorize *fabric* items (furniture, carpeting, clothing, etc.). It comes in a spritz bottle. It's not a perfume, but actually promotes the breakdown of odors from pets, food spills, human sweat, pet or child (or adult) "accidents", etc. In my experience it works pretty well. Joan Jurancich Sacramento, CA joanj@quiknet.com _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: DRGurley@aol.com Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 17:01:46 EST Subject: H-COST: Re: - -Poster: DRGurley@aol.com In a message dated 3/29/99 3:34:31 PM Central Standard Time, toneys@rentgrow.com writes: > toneys@rentgrow.com Two of the best places I've found are Alter Years (www.alteryears.com) and Amazon Dry Goods. I've used several of Alter Years patterns from corsets and underclothes on up to gowns as I sew for our Renaissance Faire costumes. They aren't horribly pricey, are easy to follow and also include variations and drawings. The whole catalog is $5 that I've found well spent. They cover many time periods. One suggestion: if it won't break you, spring for the quick ship. I waited almost 2 1/2 months for 2 patterns with their regular ship! Hope this helps. I have a large list of sources if you'd like others. DaniG _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Irene leNoir Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 17:15:29 -0500 Subject: Re: H-COST: Name That Portrait - -Poster: Irene leNoir I just wanted to say thanks to all who responded. You've all given me several places to look. If anyone runs across any websites that show any of these portraits, I would still be interested in URL's for them. Otherwise, I'm off to the library to try to get the books through ILL. (Can you say hurry up and wait?) Thanks again. Jessica Clark SCA: Ir=E8ne leNoir irene@ici.net http://home.ici.net/~beowulf/jessica _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ End of h-costume-digest V4 #242 ******************************* _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME-DIGEST From ???@??? Mon Apr 12 09:27:56 1999 Received: from mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE (mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE [130.149.4.14]) by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA25747 for ; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 05:33:39 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from mail.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.15]) by mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10RpHX-00060j-00; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 05:33:39 +0200 Received: from coal.bg.tu-berlin.de by mail.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Tue, 30 Mar 1999 05:33:37 +0200 Received: from mail.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.15]) by mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10RpHS-00060h-00; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 05:33:34 +0200 Received: from tubkom.prz.tu-berlin.de by mail.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Tue, 30 Mar 1999 05:33:33 +0200 Received: from mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE (mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE [130.149.4.14]) by tubkom.prz.tu-berlin.de (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id FAA02015 for ; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 05:31:48 +0200 (MESZ) Received: from mail.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.15]) by mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10RpHJ-00060b-00; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 05:33:26 +0200 Received: from server.indra.com by mail.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Tue, 30 Mar 1999 05:33:23 +0200 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.8.5/) with ESMTP id UAA17277; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 20:39:44 -0700 (MST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id UAA26372 for h-costume-digest-outgoing; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 20:31:58 -0700 (MST) Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 20:31:58 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199903300331.UAA26372@indra.com> From: owner-h-costume-digest@indra.com To: h-costume-digest@indra.com Subject: h-costume-digest V4 #243 Reply-To: h-costume-digest@indra.com Errors-To: owner-h-costume-digest@indra.com Precedence: bulk Status: O h-costume-digest Monday, 29 March 1999 Volume 04 : Number 243 In this issue: Re: H-COST: Alter Years Re: H-COST: Name That Portrait Re: H-COST: FO! Victorian Underpinnings, Sumptuously Sized Re: H-COST: [sewinglist] Fabreeze (fwd) Re: H-COST: FO: 1850's dress Re: H-COST: Alter Years Re: H-COST: H-cost: Wrapper variations H-COST: Elizabethan shoes Re: H-COST: What blondes should wear Re: H-COST: Re: Febreze Re: H-COST: What blondes should wear Re: H-COST: What blondes should wear H-COST: russian costume Re: H-COST: FO! Victorian Underpinnings, Sumptuously Sized Re: H-COST: 12th century embroidery ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Merouda the True of Bornover Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 14:20:46 -0800 Subject: Re: H-COST: Alter Years - -Poster: Merouda the True of Bornover I personally am very disappointed in the service I have received from Alter Years. They still have yet to either send me a pattern that I paid for and ordered in OCTOBER. I have requested my money back but have not seen it. Pitiful. A dissatisfied customer, Cynthia > Two of the best places I've found are Alter Years (www.alteryears.com) and > Amazon Dry Goods. I've used several of Alter Years patterns from corsets and > underclothes on up to gowns as I sew for our Renaissance Faire costumes. They > aren't horribly pricey, are easy to follow and also include variations and > drawings. The whole catalog is $5 that I've found well spent. They cover many > time periods. One suggestion: if it won't break you, spring for the quick > ship. I waited almost 2 1/2 months for 2 patterns with their regular ship! > > Hope this helps. I have a large list of sources if you'd like others. > > DaniG > _________________________________________________________________ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME - -- Cynthia Long Merouda the True of Bornover Barony of Madrone Kingdom of An Tir _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: MzScahlett@aol.com Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 17:25:04 EST Subject: Re: H-COST: Name That Portrait - -Poster: MzScahlett@aol.com There are several excellent websites for portraiture of this kind. Try: Carol Gerten's Fine Arts http://btr0xw.rz.uni-bayreuth.de/cgfa/index.html or the Web Gallery of Art http://gallery.euroweb.hu/index.html for starters. I've got almost a dozen other sites, but these are two of the best. angil + + + + + + + Angela F. Lazear Costumes & Custom Clothing "Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds" A. Einstein _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Margo Anderson Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 14:28:04 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: H-COST: FO! Victorian Underpinnings, Sumptuously Sized - -Poster: Margo Anderson At 03:38 PM 3/29/99 -0500, you wrote: > >-Poster: "Sarah Toney" > > >>bodices. I tipped the ends with tool dip, but I don't like the way it >>looks, so I'll probably break down and pay a small fortune for a jar of >the >>official stuff. > > >The boning I use comes already cased and works well enough that you don't >really have to "tip" it with anything What brand is it? The only already cased boning I've encountered is Polyboning, which distorts with my body heat. Is there something else I don't know about? Margo _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Julie Adams Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 15:39:33 -0700 (MST) Subject: Re: H-COST: [sewinglist] Fabreeze (fwd) - -Poster: Julie Adams I asked some experts on one of the dog lists I subscribe to. Dr. Joanne Howl, a veterinarian, said that this is under discussion right now on the Vets list. Generally the thoughts are that Febreeze is not dangerous and no one has any proof of toxicity yet. They had not heard of any poisonings on their list. Another chemicals expert, Dr. Rosemarie Szostak, Professor in the department of Chemistry, Clark Atlanta University, pointed out: "remember It is the dose that makes the poison". She also said she thought that zinc chloride has been used in roll on and spray deoderants, maybe in "Cold eze", and also for military uses, of which she has a huge file of studies on back from the 1940s. But she will look into it and report back. Rosemarie specializes in chemicals effects on people and animals. And was one of the people tasked with studying the various desert storm ailments. She is currently on assignment with the Army Environmental Policy Institute. I'll let you know if she has anything to add. She has debunked a lot of chemistry-related issues in the past for us. I think Rosemarie has a good point. For example, some small birds or reptiles might have problems with it, where a large dog may not even notice. Julie Adams _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: AliaClaire@aol.com Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 18:06:33 EST Subject: Re: H-COST: FO: 1850's dress - -Poster: AliaClaire@aol.com In a message dated 3/29/99 12:17:12 PM EST, margo@directcon.net writes: > I cheated and made my undersleeves with an elastic band at the upper arm. > Mistake! They kept falling down all day. My next pair will have buttons or > ties to attach them to my dress. Just a trick I've found on wearing them with CW pagoda sleeves (after finding too-tight elastic does NOT do good things for blood circulation): Simply finish the upper edge and tack it to the lining of the sleeve. If you do it high enough up on the arm (I wear mine very full and probably three or four inches up from the elbow), it looks simply like there is another sleeves under it. And it's painless! - -Alison Stacy AliaClare@aol.com Canton, Ohio _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: AnnBWass@aol.com Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 18:21:21 EST Subject: Re: H-COST: Alter Years - -Poster: AnnBWass@aol.com I waited three months for patterns from Alter Years. I was told that the usual wait was 6 to 8 weeks, and then was told that they had deliberately reduced their stock to make inventory easier and I would have to wait for the patterns to be re-stocked. Now, I know it is difficult dealing with some of the smaller pattern companies. But to wait 3 months! (At least, I haven't been waiting since October.) I finally faxed a cancellation, but got no response, and then the patterns arrived. One was marked that it was shipped March 12, but the postage meter date is March 18. (Six days from store to post office?) In my case, express shipping wouldn't have helped any since the patterns were out of stock. I was just wondering whether I should tell the list how disappointed I was in my experience when I saw the other two postings. So, I recommend you try someone else unless you can go to the retail store in Pasedena. Ann Wass _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: AliaClaire@aol.com Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 18:29:12 EST Subject: Re: H-COST: H-cost: Wrapper variations - -Poster: AliaClaire@aol.com Margo- My recommendation is to use past patterns, but use the fitted bodice pattern and the stays (sensible stays? I don't remember what she calls them) with it. The skirt can then be attached with a dog leg opening, and either coat or bishop sleeves. It would be a correct impression then, worn with a corded petticoat instead of hoops. Probably a plaid or solid would be safest. Also, with the piping: I've seen contrast piping used in fashion plates and in ONE original dress. The great majority used self-fabric piping that was very skinny. Also, in the fashion plates, the contrast piping was not used on shoulders/arms/waist/neck, where it was utility, but instead to decorate other seams, such as the skirt. You don't need a pattern for the skirt, just probably 3 panels of 45" wide fabric sewn together with a false hem and attached at the waist to the piping. Does this make any sense? I'm really tired tonight. Let me know if you need clarification. - -Alison Stacy AliaClaire@aol.com Canton, Ohio _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Marsha McLean Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 18:35:02 -0500 (EST) Subject: H-COST: Elizabethan shoes - -Poster: Marsha McLean Waht sort of documentation? Written? Pictorial? Many Men's Portraits show shoes. There is "Shoes and Pattens", part of the Dress Accessories series, which has EXTENSIVE coverage of the previous century's shoes - I was able to extrapolate based on this and portraiture. I can also recommend the Bata Shoe Museum here in Toronto. It has lots of real 16th c. shoes. If you can get here, make an appointment and convince them you have a clue they will let you handle them and examine them very closely. Their phone # is: 416-979-7799. Good Luck! Marsha Marsha McLean "Be yourself - it's who you do best" _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: cynthia j ley Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 19:09:44 EST Subject: Re: H-COST: What blondes should wear - -Poster: cynthia j ley Speaking as a blonde... It's not uncommon for blondes to darken as they get older. My hair is a fair bit darker than it was in my 20's, and I'm going white, not gray. Complexion--reasonably fair, eyes very dark green. Look fine in most colors, but hideous in orange, orange-backed reds, yellow-backed blues, greens or purples. You do not want to see me in yellow. Any color with a blue shading to it looks fine. I can wear the tone range from midnight dark to ice. Black is stunning on most blondes, especially if they are very fair complexioned. But never looked right in pink. A lot of pinks have yellow tints. Ick! ;) Arlys ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Kitty Scalzo Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 16:21:37 +0000 Subject: Re: H-COST: Re: Febreze - -Poster: Kitty Scalzo Hi all My first post after joining last week. Yes, Febreeze is costume related. I make costumes for a lounge act in Hollywood and they spray their costumes after each wearing after I recommended it to them. They had tried something else I had bought at a costume supply house 'Bacistat' or something. We had used this in musicals I had work on as a dresser but this stuff seemed to dissolve some of the fabrics I used for Marty and Elayne so they tried Febreeze and they love it. I am glad to hear that the animal danger is not real as they have two dogs and I was going to have to warn them about using it. Thanks Kitty in So. Cal _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: AlbertCat@aol.com Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 19:47:34 EST Subject: Re: H-COST: What blondes should wear - -Poster: AlbertCat@aol.com In a message dated 3/29/99 7:13:25 PM Eastern Standard Time, cley@juno.com writes: << but hideous in orange, orange-backed reds, yellow-backed blues, greens or purples. You do not want to see me in yellow. >> THERE'S NOTHING LEFT!!!! I'm kidding. From your description, I have a hard time imagining you looking horrible in a saturated emerald green. _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Susan Fatemi Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 17:47:39 -0800 Subject: Re: H-COST: What blondes should wear - -Poster: Susan Fatemi Danielle Nunn wrote: > > >I have often thought blondes should wear darker colors to offset their > >light complexions. > > >From my experience, I have to agree. I think a lot of blondes look > stunning in black (or navy or burgundy/maroon depending on skin shade). I > used to wear mostly black and boy did it set off my hair. ... I used to be a "natural" blonde, now it's sort of mousy-drab poo-poo going grey with chemically induced highlights (hoping it will all blend in) Very fair skin with no pink (ok, I could pass for a vampire) Can we say drab? Remember when everyone was doing their "seasons"? And there were "cool" blondes and "warm" blondes. I definately belong in the ashy-cool category. Black makes me look like death- warmed-over, so navy, burgundy, certain shades of grey, and lately, plum, became my "neutrals". Pale pink is just about as flattering as beige i.e. it's nearly the same color as my skin so no "oomph" at all. But deep rose pink, and any color in the cool reds is/are very flattering to those of us in this category. One thing I learned from the "Seasons" book is to figure out what looks good on you, scrounge up all the different colored fabrics you have (not hard for *this* group!) and hold them up to you, one by one, in front of a full- length mirror (pref. natural light). Drape them around your shoulders, even over your head, and *your* colors will become apparent immediately. Now everyone play dress up! Susan F. - -- Oh Noh! Kimonos! susanf@netwiz.net http://www.netwiz.net/~susanf _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Susan Fatemi Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 17:59:20 -0800 Subject: H-COST: russian costume - -Poster: Susan Fatemi I work in a library and ran across this title while looking for something else (not the actual book, just the title) Thought it might be of interest to the list. The Costume of the Russian empire / illustrated by a series of seventy-three engravings ; with descriptions in English and French. London : Printed for William Miller ... by Howlett and Brimmer ...,1803. If you're very rich, you can purchase it at: http://www.studiobardi.com/homepagee.htm I made a list of the libraries that have it, but left it at work. Let's see, there were NY public, U. Chicago, U. Wisconsin (go figure!), the Smithsonian, someplace in Alabama I never heard of (and can't remember, sorry) that's all I can remember. This would be fabulous if someone could get it and put it up on the web, like the Tilke book. I haven't actually seen it, but it sounds fabulous! Susan F. - -- Oh Noh! Kimonos! susanf@netwiz.net http://www.netwiz.net/~susanf _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Margretta de Vries Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 19:12:09 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: H-COST: FO! Victorian Underpinnings, Sumptuously Sized - -Poster: Margretta de Vries > Since I also don't have a handy source for boning and > hate having to wait for mail order mid-project, > I ordered a one pound roll of the stuff from > Greenberg and Hammer. It cost $14, and there was > enough to make an Elizabethan corset for a small > woman and a Victorian corset for a large woman, plus > extensive boning in two bodices. > But then, so is spiral boning. I only use spirals > for stiffening an already tightly fitted garment, not > to provide support. Last summer, I bought 12 pounds of spiral boning at Greenberg and Hammer, and like it a lot. I think it works fine in the 4 corsets I've boned completely in spirals, it provides *plenty* of support! Wouldn't you say a corset is a "tight-fitted garment"? And it doesn't take me all that long to use--I use tin-snips to cut it (easily!), and the tips that you can order from G&H are easy to apply. Margretta === Margretta de Vries _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: SNSpies@aol.com Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 22:29:51 EST Subject: Re: H-COST: 12th century embroidery - -Poster: SNSpies@aol.com << I recommend thinking of vines and acanthus leaves. Also check out Illuminated Manuscripts for ideas of popular design themes of the time. >> Patterns were borrowed from other media and used as inspiration or even direct copy for needlework or weaving projects. For example, I can show you that the borders in the 11th century Bayeux Embroidery are exactly like a pattern from a 10th century Byzantine ceramic piece, a pattern which can also be found on a 12th century brocaded tabletwoven band. So the suggestion of looking at illuminated manuscripts for inspiration is an excellent one. Ingvild/Nancy _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ End of h-costume-digest V4 #243 ******************************* _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME-DIGEST From ???@??? Mon Apr 12 09:27:58 1999 Received: from mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE (mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE [130.149.4.14]) by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA03498 for ; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 17:20:03 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from mail.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.15]) by mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10S0J8-0003ud-00; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 17:20:02 +0200 Received: from coal.bg.tu-berlin.de by mail.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Tue, 30 Mar 1999 17:19:57 +0200 Received: from mail.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.15]) by mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10S0Iz-0003uN-00; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 17:19:53 +0200 Received: from tubkom.prz.tu-berlin.de by mail.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Tue, 30 Mar 1999 17:19:50 +0200 Received: from mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE (mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE [130.149.4.14]) by tubkom.prz.tu-berlin.de (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA06864 for ; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 17:18:09 +0200 (MESZ) Received: from mail.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.15]) by mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10S0Is-0003tr-00; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 17:19:46 +0200 Received: from server.indra.com by mail.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Tue, 30 Mar 1999 17:19:42 +0200 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.8.5/) with ESMTP id IAA15485; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 08:26:46 -0700 (MST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id IAA23877 for h-costume-digest-outgoing; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 08:18:07 -0700 (MST) Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 08:18:07 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199903301518.IAA23877@indra.com> From: owner-h-costume-digest@indra.com To: h-costume-digest@indra.com Subject: h-costume-digest V4 #244 Reply-To: h-costume-digest@indra.com Errors-To: owner-h-costume-digest@indra.com Precedence: bulk Status: O h-costume-digest Tuesday, 30 March 1999 Volume 04 : Number 244 In this issue: H-COST: 12th century embroidery H-COST: Re: oscar dresses H-COST: Re: Medieval costume patterns H-COST: Historical pattern sources Re: H-COST: What blondes should wear H-COST: Bra makers H-COST: Corset/bra Re: H-COST: Elizabethan shoes Re: H-COST: Alter Years Re: H-COST: Re: Medieval costume patterns H-COST:Folkwear patterns Re: H-COST: Elizabethan shoes H-COST: 1850's work dresses Re: H-COST:Folkwear patterns ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Fiammetta@aol.com Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 01:17:27 EST Subject: H-COST: 12th century embroidery - -Poster: Fiammetta@aol.com Greetings, Here is a good page for info on 12th c. embroidery: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Wymarc/band.htm J. Bertino _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Dietmar Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 02:44:01 +0000 Subject: H-COST: Re: oscar dresses - -Poster: Dietmar Greetings one and all, Megan wrote: > I must be a lost triplet, as I am blonde and have always preferred jewel > tones to offset my pale complexion. And was a tomboy as well, in fact > the only dresses I like are historic and/or long ones as I hate pantyhose > with a passion!!!!! It's not necessarily you. Like all blanket statements, "all blondes look good in pink" is not universally true. What makes people look good in clothing, regardless of hair color, is matching the color of the garment to the skin tone of the wearer. (Which is one of the reasons so many people that change their hair color look funny...if they make too drastic a change, their hair color no longer matches their skin tone.) I'm a blonde, and I can wear peach, but as a rule I stay away from pastels. However, being male I have little use for pinks or pastels. I tend to stay away from reds that have yellow in favor of reds that have black in them. I also dislike royal blue, but prefer navy. Of course, some of this is just my personal preference. Regards, Dietmar "Victory or Defeat rests in God's hands; over Honor, we ourselves are Lord and Master." _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Diana H Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 23:33:27 -0800 Subject: H-COST: Re: Medieval costume patterns - -Poster: Diana H Sarah Toney wrote: > -Poster: "Sarah Toney" > > Okay, I am looking for any place on the internet that sells > patterns.... > specifically medieval womens dresses and mens breeches. Help! I am > having > a huge problem with sizings for people at the moment and hope a couple > of > well placed patterns will help. Anyone? > > Sarah > Sarah, I tried doing some searches to see who else has patterns that would work for you and mostly what I found was for renaissance and later. I would tend to believe the stories about Alter Year's idea of timely shipping because I had heard many horror stories of how long they take to ship. So I was trying to find other sources. Give this one a try and see if it has anything you could use: http://www.best.com/~theducks/f_pricels.htm It takes a while to load, so be patient. Is there a specific style you were looking for? There are a few decent books available where you can get an idea of the shape of the costume but you would need to scale it up into a real pattern. Does that help you at all? It just seems as if medieval dress patterns are pretty scarce. Hope this helps! Diana :~> - -- * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * "There are too many mediocre things in life to deal with.....Love shouldn't be one of them." - --Ione Skye in "Dream for an Insomniac" _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Leslie Helms Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 00:34:00 -0800 Subject: H-COST: Historical pattern sources - -Poster: Leslie Helms Another source is Elisee du Lyonnais who carries Period Patterns and Costume Connection patterns among others. Her website is www.sewingcentral.com, but it's down tonight. I think that's a result of her current move to another state. Elisee has been very helpful and has corresponded with me about the merits and drawbacks of different patterns. I'm not sure when she'll be back online, though. Leslie _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "David Stamper & Eve Harris" Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 06:57:52 -0500 Subject: Re: H-COST: What blondes should wear - -Poster: "David Stamper & Eve Harris" Blondes and pink...I believed in that one in my teens and early twenties. Then someone told me I looked puffy in a pale pink dress and in a rage I buried it in the closet. I've found that I can wear almost anything BUT pink. Earthtones - rich browns and reds - are my bread and butter. I wear dark navy for work. My best SCA dresses are deep blue, garnet red and a shimmering ice green/peacock blue concoction. Clear colours look good - a true yellow, a deep red - but mute the colours past a certain point and it all looks like a bad water colour painting on me. I can't wear dazzling white. I have to wear ivory. Add on the fact that I am a "Rubenesque" woman with piles of long blond hair and one quickly realizes that solids are the way to go and to let the prints go by....though tone-on-tone usuallly works, if the motifs aren't minuscule. Is it any wonder I gravitate to Italian Ren? Eve Harris evedave1@netcom.ca _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Amanda Reeves" Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 06:16:05 -0600 Subject: H-COST: Bra makers - -Poster: "Amanda Reeves" Haven't surfed the entire site yet, but this is an interesting web site. Thought it might have corsets................. http://www.bramakers.com/ AReeves Texas _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Amanda Reeves" Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 06:31:57 -0600 Subject: H-COST: Corset/bra - -Poster: "Amanda Reeves" A poster on another list I'm on got kinda irate about some particular historical costuming and I felt she was a bit "over the edge" in her frustration with a person's question. Now, I have the utmost respect for this woman's experience because she's danced and studied all throughout the Middle East since the 60"s, but she was a little testy about this particular post. I would like to respond to one of her points, but would like to be accurate when I do. She was complaining about a person questioning the use of coins on historical Ghawazee and Ouled Nail Middle Eastern costuming. The Ouled Nail obviously wore coins on their scarves, but the Ghawazee did not. However...........I would like to respond to her ravings about the "bra and belt" Cabaret costumes. She mentioned that Howard Hughes invented the push-up bra. I guess she is trying to bring the Cabaret costuming to the present, and that's fine. How did the bra evolve? Is the push-up bra related to corsets? Sincerely, Amanda Reeves Texas _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Andrea Gideon" Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 08:20:32 -0800 Subject: Re: H-COST: Elizabethan shoes - -Poster: "Andrea Gideon" >Waht sort of documentation? Written? Pictorial? Many Men's Portraits show >shoes. Most of the pictures I've seen don't show shoes. I'm basically looking to answer two questions, round toe, square toe, and heel, no heel. Can you give me more info on the Dress Accessories series. Also, does the Museum have a website? Andrea There is "Shoes and Pattens", part of the Dress Accessories series, >which has EXTENSIVE coverage of the previous century's shoes - I was able to >extrapolate based on this and portraiture. I can also recommend the Bata >Shoe Museum here in Toronto. It has lots of real 16th c. shoes. If you can >get here, make an appointment and convince them you have a clue they will >let you handle them and examine them very closely. Their phone # is: >416-979-7799. >Good Luck! > >Marsha >Marsha McLean > >"Be yourself - it's who you do best" > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Kat Hargus" Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 07:58:30 -0800 Subject: Re: H-COST: Alter Years - -Poster: "Kat Hargus" I have to second the treatment I've gotten. I paid the extra $16 for 'Rush' service instead of waiting 6 weeks to mail a pattern, and I still haven't gotten it. This was well over a month ago. I get no response when I try to contact them about this. - -----Original Message----- From: Merouda the True of Bornover To: h-costume@indra.com Date: Monday, March 29, 1999 2:22 PM Subject: Re: H-COST: Alter Years > >-Poster: Merouda the True of Bornover > >I personally am very disappointed in the service I have received from Alter >Years. They still have yet to either send me a pattern that I paid for and >ordered in OCTOBER. I have requested my money back but have not seen it. >Pitiful. > >A dissatisfied customer, Cynthia > > >> Two of the best places I've found are Alter Years (www.alteryears.com) and >> Amazon Dry Goods. I've used several of Alter Years patterns from corsets and >> underclothes on up to gowns as I sew for our Renaissance Faire costumes. They >> aren't horribly pricey, are easy to follow and also include variations and >> drawings. The whole catalog is $5 that I've found well spent. They cover many >> time periods. One suggestion: if it won't break you, spring for the quick >> ship. I waited almost 2 1/2 months for 2 patterns with their regular ship! >> >> Hope this helps. I have a large list of sources if you'd like others. >> >> DaniG >> _________________________________________________________________ >> To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com >> with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME > >-- >Cynthia Long >Merouda the True of Bornover >Barony of Madrone >Kingdom of An Tir > > > _________________________________________________________________ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME > _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Sarah Toney" Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 09:17:40 -0500 Subject: Re: H-COST: Re: Medieval costume patterns - -Poster: "Sarah Toney" You know, it's too bad about Alter Years... I have one of their patterns and they are pretty cool, but I don't want to wait that long... gosh, by the time I got them King Richard's Faire would be here again and I could just go get the patterns myself. Ah well... I'm looking at a couple of the other pages. Thanks much for all of the help! As a note... If anyone sees the Folkwear patterns and likes to use patterns, I strongly advise to take the opportunity to get them while you can. They have become nigh unto impossible to find nowadays and are really good patterns. sarah _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Steve & Michelle Plumb" Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 09:42:19 -0400 Subject: H-COST:Folkwear patterns - -Poster: "Steve & Michelle Plumb" Sara said: "As a note... If anyone sees the Folkwear patterns and likes to use patterns, I strongly advise to take the opportunity to get them while you can. They have become nigh unto impossible to find nowadays and are really good patterns." - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ - ---------- Lark Books now owns Folkwear patterns, and is currently having a 30% off sale on discontinued patterns! http://www.larkbooks.com/ Michelle ================================================================================ Steve & Michelle Plumb -- splumb@ic.net Plymouth, Michigan USA HAL 9000: "Dave? What are you doing, Dave? Put that Windows 98 CD down. Dave?" ================================================================================ _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: aleed Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 09:45:34 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: H-COST: Elizabethan shoes - -Poster: aleed > > Most of the pictures I've seen don't show shoes. I'm basically looking to > answer two questions, round toe, square toe, and heel, no heel. "Queen Elizabeth's Wardrobe Unlock'd" has a number of photographs of period shoes & paintings which show them, but unfortunately the book is hard to come by...Stubbes gets quite specific in his ravings about fashionable shoes, however. He was writing in the 1580s, and you can read the section at http://www.dnaco.net/~aleed/corsets/stubbes.html . (There's another section in the same document on the criminal activities of Elizabethan shoemakers, which gives some interesting info on construction.) Shoes in Elizabeth's time could have both rounded or squared-off toes; the "duck-billed" shoes of King Henry VIII's time had gone out of fashion. Shoes themselves didn't have have to have much of a heel, but "cork-heeled shoes" did exist, as did pantofles (wooden-soled or cork-soled overshoes/slippers that were worn over flat-soled shoes).They were very often decorated with slashes or pinking, and were made of fine leather or fabric. hope this helps, Drea _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: ArcadiaCB@aol.com Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 07:46:12 -0700 (MST) Subject: H-COST: 1850's work dresses - -Poster: ArcadiaCB@aol.com In response to Margo's question re 1850s work dresses. Of course the problem is that "work" clothing really doesn't survive since it ends to be worn to pieces. If you subscribe to the Citizen's Companion magazine the current issue has a good article on work dresses and shows 4 or 5 dresses, with construction details. I checked their site The Citizens' Companion and this article isn't one that's online, but well worth getting that issue (I think it is March-April, can't lay my hands on mine right now). As to the "uniform look" using just a few patterns, I collect CDV's (small mid-19c photos) of women to see what "real" people were wearing, not the fashion plates--last time I counted (a few years back), I had over 1400 mostly all nicely filed in acid-free album sleeves and some catagorized by with attention to particular styles or details. By far, the most common style of dress is the high round neck, center front opening, fitted bodice, with sleeve variations, the most common being the bishop or coat sleeve. In original garments, both in my own collection and others I have seen, this is the most common as well. The fabric and trim make the main differences in the dresses. The "common" or "work" clothing I wear when intrepreting is in this style. So I would use the Past Patterns fitted bodice with a bishop sleeve (make the wrist opening loose enough to roll up the sleeve if necessary), use a dark colour (shows dirt less) in a solid or small print (I wouldn't use a plaid, too much of a waste of fabric for work clothing), no trim except the functional self piping on the neck and armscye (and waistline if you guage/cartridge pleat the waist). And remember the apron for work clothing--something we "throw it in the washing machine after every wearing" modern people tend to forget--in a dark sturdy fabric (people who wear white aprons have never tried to do real work in them), in either a waist or pinner front style long enough and wide enough to protect most of the front of the dress (and haul wood, food, supplies in and reach into the fire wrapped around your hand to use as a potholder). For outdoors, be sure to wear a sunbonnet or slat bonnet (very easy to make) to keep the sun off your face and neck. And I am biased in favour of corsets, which give the proper dress line and really do help if you actually do any work (you didn't say if you would be actually doing any work or just a tour guide). And be sure to save your scraps of fabric -- you're bound to get a rip sometime and patches were made of the same fabric to carefully blend in so as not to be noticeable. Hope this is of some help. Charlene Bullard _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Sarah Toney" Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 10:08:47 -0500 Subject: Re: H-COST:Folkwear patterns - -Poster: "Sarah Toney" Okay, shows what I know... thank you soooooo much... >Lark Books now owns Folkwear patterns, >and is currently having a 30% off sale on >discontinued patterns! > >http://www.larkbooks.com/ > >Michelle >=========================================================================== ===== > Steve & Michelle Plumb -- splumb@ic.net > Plymouth, Michigan USA > >HAL 9000: "Dave? What are you doing, Dave? Put that Windows 98 CD down. Dave?" > >=========================================================================== ===== > > > _________________________________________________________________ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME > _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ End of h-costume-digest V4 #244 ******************************* _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME-DIGEST From ???@??? Mon Apr 12 09:27:59 1999 Received: from mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE (mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE [130.149.4.14]) by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA04452 for ; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 19:14:57 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from mail.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.15]) by mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10S26K-0006EN-00; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 19:14:56 +0200 Received: from coal.bg.tu-berlin.de by mail.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Tue, 30 Mar 1999 19:14:40 +0200 Received: from tubkom.prz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.62.9] ident=root) by mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10S260-0006E0-00; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 19:14:36 +0200 Received: from mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE (mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE [130.149.4.14]) by tubkom.prz.tu-berlin.de (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA07698 for ; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 19:12:54 +0200 (MESZ) Received: from mail.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.15]) by mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10S25n-0006Dn-01; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 19:14:23 +0200 Received: from server.indra.com by mail.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Tue, 30 Mar 1999 19:14:14 +0200 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.8.5/) with ESMTP id KAA06436; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 10:21:36 -0700 (MST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id KAA14977 for h-costume-digest-outgoing; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 10:12:47 -0700 (MST) Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 10:12:47 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199903301712.KAA14977@indra.com> From: owner-h-costume-digest@indra.com To: h-costume-digest@indra.com Subject: h-costume-digest V4 #245 Reply-To: h-costume-digest@indra.com Errors-To: owner-h-costume-digest@indra.com Precedence: bulk Status: O h-costume-digest Tuesday, 30 March 1999 Volume 04 : Number 245 In this issue: Re: H-COST: gap in pre-19th corsets Re: H-COST: European list Re: H-COST: What blondes should wear Re: H-COST: Corset/bra H-COST: Old Ship's Officers Uniforms RE: H-COST: H-cost: Wrapper variations Re: H-COST: FO: 1850's dress Re: H-COST: edging for flounced skirt RE: H-COST: Corset/bra Re: H-COST: H-cost: Wrapper variations Re: H-COST: H-cost: Wrapper variations Re: H-COST: FO! Victorian Underpinnings, Sumptuously Sized ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Susannah Eanes" Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 07:27:11 PST Subject: Re: H-COST: gap in pre-19th corsets - -Poster: "Susannah Eanes" I think this is one of the differences between 18th & 19th century corsets. The gap is usually smaller before the turn of the 19th c. (pre-1800, that is.) If you have period references to the contrary, please share them with the list! Thanks, Susannah >From: Julie Adams >Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com >To: h-costume@indra.com >Subject: Re: H-COST: gap in pre-19th corsets >Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 17:09:04 -0800 (PST) > > >-Poster: Julie Adams > >>>I have always been in the impression that 2 to 4 inch gap is >>there before the corset is laced (that is, the corset is 2 to 4 >>inches smaller than the actual unlaced waist measurement). >>Have I been mistaken and that was the size of the gap after >>lacing? > >You've been mistaken. The gap should be there after lacing. > >>If so, how much smaller than the natural waist >>measurement were the corsets? > >Mine are 4 inches. My waist measurement does not decrease after lacing, >though it *Looks* like it does. Most 19th c corsets make your shape rounder >from front to back, but mine are based on an 1880s corset style. The >1860's corsets are more likely to pinch in your waist, but other >measurements might then increase (the mass must go somewhere...). > >Julie Adams > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Henk 't Jong" Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 17:43:42 +0200 Subject: Re: H-COST: European list - -Poster: "Henk 't Jong" Henk & Pauline 't Jong tScapreel Medieval Advisors Dordrecht, Netherlands Hello Diana, I'm interested in info on the European historic costume list. Could you send me more? Bye, Henk _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: cynthia j ley Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 11:01:34 EST Subject: Re: H-COST: What blondes should wear - -Poster: cynthia j ley Anything with a yellow tinge for an undertone is hideous. Saturated colors are marvelous. :-) Except for red. ;) Arlys On Mon, 29 Mar 1999 19:47:34 EST AlbertCat@aol.com writes: > >-Poster: AlbertCat@aol.com > >In a message dated 3/29/99 7:13:25 PM Eastern Standard Time, >cley@juno.com >writes: > ><< but hideous in orange, orange-backed reds, > yellow-backed blues, greens or purples. You do not want to see me in > yellow. >> > >THERE'S NOTHING LEFT!!!! > >I'm kidding. From your description, I have a hard time imagining you looking >horrible in a saturated emerald green. ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: seamstrix@juno.com Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 09:09:53 -0600 Subject: Re: H-COST: Corset/bra - -Poster: seamstrix@juno.com The way I understand it, Howard Hughes didn't invent the push-up bra, he helped to create the bullet bra which was such a popular silhouette in the 1950's. I am in no way an expert on Middle Eastern clothing so I can't help you with the rest of the issue. Karen _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: kang@cyberramp.net Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 10:19:05 -0600 Subject: H-COST: Old Ship's Officers Uniforms - -Poster: kang@cyberramp.net Does anyone know of any good source books about ship's officer's uniforms from the 1800's and early 1900's? I collect nautical antiques, and have acquired several uniforms. One of them, which dates from the 1850-1890 period is apparently a ship's captain's tailcoat. So far all I've been able to figure out about it (With the help of several experts in the US, Canada, and Holland) is that it is either from a Great Lakes shipping firm or a Mississippi riverboat. A Canadian museum is going to be helping me to try to identify it, and I'm planning a trip to one or two Mississippi museums, but I'd like to try and do a little home research as well. Anyone have any ideas? A well illustrated book might be really helpful here. Thanks for your time in this! Regards, John. _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Hope H. Dunlap" Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 11:22:27 -0500 Subject: RE: H-COST: H-cost: Wrapper variations - -Poster: "Hope H. Dunlap" No matter what variations you make, it will still be a variation. I just can't believe there was that much uniformity. I just got an offer in the mail for a new 1850's dress pattern from the State Historical Society of Wisconsin taken from a garment in their collection. I didn't keep it, but as I remember it was a separate waist and petticoat, with the lower edge of the waist coming to a point at the hip, front and back. Looked quite comfortable. Their pattern collection contains a simple 1840's day dress as well which looks eminently appropriate for a work dress pattern as there are no elaborate trimmings. It has a Marie Stuart waist, cartridge pleated skirt and a pair of simple flounces around each upper arm, jewel neckline. Patterns unfortunately available mostly in sizes 10, 12, and 14. They are at 816 State Street, Madison Wisconsin 53706-1488. Amazon Drygoods carries them too, but at almost double the price under Patterns of History. Amazon Drygoods has some additional patterns which would be appropriate. They have a pretty Period Impressions day dress of 1845 which is very simple. Heidi's Patterns LD-1-WD shows an 1859 work dress which is basically an updated bed gown over a petticoat. They are at 1-800-798-7979. 2218 East 11th Street Davenport, Iowa 52803-3760. Hope H. Dunlap - -----Original Message----- From: owner-h-costume@indra.com [mailto:owner-h-costume@indra.com]On Behalf Of Margo Anderson Sent: Monday, March 29, 1999 3:09 PM To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: H-COST: H-cost: Wrapper variations - -Poster: Margo Anderson I'm planning to make myself an 1850's work dress, for wear in the docent program at Marshall Discovery Park. (The site of the beginning of the California Gold Rush) I would like to use Past Pattern's wrapper or work dress patterns, except for one problem. At the event I attended yesterday, %95 of the participants were wearing these two dresses, with the only variations in the fabric and the piping color. Now, I am incredibly grateful to Sandra Altman for her work. Having been going to this park all my life, I've seen the days of docents dressed Jessica McClintock sundresses and denim prairie dresses, and this is a HUGE improvement. However, I don't believe that the women of the 1850's would have been dressed in quite so uniform a style. I would like to come up with some variations on these patterns that would make it look as if the women of Coloma hadn't all passed the same pattern around. Does anyone have ideas for changes that could be made without gussying the dresses up too much for work dresses? Margo Anderson ____________________________________________________________ _____ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Susannah Eanes" Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 08:32:41 PST Subject: Re: H-COST: FO: 1850's dress - -Poster: "Susannah Eanes" Alison makes a good suggestion. This is exactly the method I have seen used on two originals: one c. 1817 (North Carolina) and the other c. 1850s (Georgia collection, but originally, again from North Carolina). Susannah >-Poster: AliaClaire@aol.com > >In a message dated 3/29/99 12:17:12 PM EST, margo@directcon.net writes: > >> I cheated and made my undersleeves with an elastic band at the upper arm. >> Mistake! They kept falling down all day. My next pair will have buttons >or >> ties to attach them to my dress. > >Just a trick I've found on wearing them with CW pagoda sleeves (after finding >too-tight elastic does NOT do good things for blood circulation): Simply >finish the upper edge and tack it to the lining of the sleeve. If you do it >high enough up on the arm (I wear mine very full and probably three or four >inches up from the elbow), it looks simply like there is another sleeves under >it. And it's painless! > >-Alison Stacy >AliaClare@aol.com >Canton, Ohio > _________________________________________________________________ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Susannah Eanes" Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 08:41:04 PST Subject: Re: H-COST: edging for flounced skirt - -Poster: "Susannah Eanes" >-Poster: Margo Anderson > >I'm making myself an 1850's dress in a cotton (yes, I know, but I'm broke >and it was free) plaid with a large, uneven repeat. It will have a fan >front bodice, moderate pagoda sleeves, and a triple flounced skirt. This is >not supposed to be extremely dressy, just what a woman of moderate >circumstances might wear for visiting or church. > > I feel that the flounces and the ends of the sleeves need some sort of >trim to give them definition. Since I need upwards of 20 yards, I'm >considering making my own bias binding. Would a bias self binding in the >plaid be appropriate, or should I use a solid color? Also, should the top >flounce, which begins about 8" down from the waistband, have the same trim >at the top of the heading, or should I leave it plain? > >Margo > I have seen some very attractive self-piping, very, very tiny, used to give body to the edge of such flouncing on sleeves & skirts. It was almost as tiny as if six-strand embroidery floss were used as the inner piping. When I made my own, I used a small guage crochet cotton, available at Walmart. (I didn't think this up on my own --this suggestion originally came from Beth Miller). Susannah Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Vickers, Jill" Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 08:47:40 -0800 Subject: RE: H-COST: Corset/bra - -Poster: "Vickers, Jill" This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. - ------ =_NextPart_001_01BE7ACD.06A86090 Content-Type: text/plain Howard Hughes helped develop an "aerodynamic" bra with wire supports specifically to keep Jane Russell's 38" bust from flopping about "indecently" while riding a horse in a move he was producing in 1943. The Lou company in France came out with the first bra with circular top-stitching (aka "bullet" bra) in 1939. - -Jill > -Poster: seamstrix@juno.com > > The way I understand it, Howard Hughes didn't invent the push-up bra, he > helped to create the bullet bra which was such a popular silhouette in the > 1950's. I am in no way an expert on Middle Eastern clothing so I can't > help you with the rest of the issue. > > > Karen > _________________________________________________________________ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME > - ------ =_NextPart_001_01BE7ACD.06A86090 Content-Type: text/html Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: H-COST: Corset/bra

Howard Hughes = helped develop an "aerodynamic" bra with wire supports = specifically to keep Jane Russell's 38" bust from flopping about = "indecently" while riding a horse in a move he was producing = in 1943.

The Lou = company in France came out with the first bra with circular = top-stitching (aka "bullet" bra) in 1939.

-Jill


    -Poster: seamstrix@juno.com

    The way I understand it, Howard Hughes = didn't invent the push-up bra, he helped to create the bullet bra which was such a popular = silhouette in the 1950's. I am in no = way an expert on Middle Eastern clothing so I can't help you with the rest of the issue.


    Karen
     ___________________________________________________= ______________
     To leave this mailing list, = send mail to majordomo@indra.com
     with the message UNSUBSCRIBE = H-COSTUME

- ------ =_NextPart_001_01BE7ACD.06A86090-- _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Lavolta Press Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 08:53:00 -0800 Subject: Re: H-COST: H-cost: Wrapper variations - -Poster: Lavolta Press > I just got an offer in the mail for a new > 1850's dress pattern from the State Historical Society of > Wisconsin taken from a garment in their collection. I > didn't keep it, but as I remember it was a separate waist > and petticoat, with the lower edge of the waist coming to a > point at the hip, front and back. Looked quite comfortable. > Their pattern collection contains a simple 1840's day dress > as well which looks eminently appropriate for a work dress > pattern as there are no elaborate trimmings. It has a Marie > Stuart waist, cartridge pleated skirt and a pair of simple > flounces around each upper arm, jewel neckline. Patterns > unfortunately available mostly in sizes 10, 12, and 14. I have the State Historical Society of Wisconsin "1857 Promenade Dress" brochure you mentioned sitting here on my desk. It is a reissue of a pattern of their original series of about ten 19th-century patterns they published quite a while back--maybe 15 years ago? The original series was issued in only a few sizes, the smallest of which was 10. I bought them all at the time. The SHS seems to be gradually reissuing new versions in more sizes. But if anyone gets a chance to compare both versions of the 1857 pattern, I'd like to know if there are any other differences. The 1840s dress pattern has not been reissued yet as far as I know, so is still in the old sizes. Fran - ---------------------------------------------- Visit our web sites! Books on historic costume and vintage clothes http://www.best.com/~lavolta/index.htm Vintage and historic dance http://www.best.com/~lavolta/dance/index.htm _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: LuAnnMason@aol.com Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 11:47:41 EST Subject: Re: H-COST: H-cost: Wrapper variations - -Poster: LuAnnMason@aol.com I'm going to risk some flames, but here goes anyway.... I was very intrigued by the patterns available from the Wisconsin State Historical Society, because I know that the reproduction items from the Wisconsin Veteran's Museum are first rate. But.... (you knew it was coming, right??? ;-) )" In a message dated 3/30/99 11:27:27 AM EST, hhdunlap@email.msn.com writes: << They have a pretty Period Impressions day dress of 1845 which is very simple. In my OWN experience, Period Impressions patterns give you JUST that--a general "Impression" of the period. If that's what you are interested in, that's just fine, BUT for people who want more than just a general look, to whom the construction details make or break an outfit, Period Impressions is NOT the way to go. They basically use and redesign modern patterns, using modern cutting and tailoring techniques. Unfortunately, patternmaking has altered drastically in nearly 150 years, and you WILL NOT achieve a true period drape or look using these patterns. It's a physical impossibility. Their armscyes are too large, their seams are in the wrong places, and their patterns are NOT placed on the grain consistent with originals. >> Heidi's Patterns LD-1-WD shows an 1859 work dress which is basically an updated bed gown over a petticoat. >> I haven't tried this specific one, but once again, modern cutting techniques were used on almost every pattern of Heidi's that I have purchased over the past 20 years. You will NOT get a true period fit or look using these patterns. Finally, if anyone on this list feels like I'm being overly critical and/or picky, and is still interested in using Period Impressions or Heidi Marsh patterns, please e-mail me privately. I have a whole stash, and I'll let them go CHEAP. I won't use them, and won't pass them on to folks in my area because they aren't historically accurate. They're gathering dust and taking up room, and I don't want them. I think I have 4 or 5 ladies patterns, and another 8 or 10 men's patterns. LuAnn in Washington State _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Margo Anderson Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 09:03:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: H-COST: FO! Victorian Underpinnings, Sumptuously Sized - -Poster: Margo Anderson > >Last summer, I bought 12 pounds of spiral boning at >Greenberg and Hammer, and like it a lot. I think it >works fine in the 4 corsets I've boned completely in >spirals, it provides *plenty* of support! Wouldn't you >say a corset is a "tight-fitted garment"? > I may not have made myself clear in my first message. I'm not saying that spiral boning isn't a good product. I just question whether it's stiff enough to provide support for an entire Victorian corset for my body type. Most of the professionally made Victorian style corsets I've seen have used spiral boning on curved seams, with flat steels laid on the straight between them. I know that if I took the boning out of my tightly fitted victorian corset and put it on, the top edge would immediately fold down from the weight of my breasts, and I suspect that if I boned it with spirals, I'd have the same result. This might not be the case with a similar corset on a less abundant figure, and with a different style such as Elizabethan or Baroque, the results would also be different. >And it doesn't take me all that long to use--I use >tin-snips to cut it (easily!), and the tips that you >can order from G&H are easy to apply. The time to use factor wasn't my problem, it was the time to get it. I found out about an event I wanted to attend two weeks before it happened, and I needed to start that corset immediately. There just wasn't time to wait for an order to come to California from New York, and in my current financial condition I can't justify a $20 rush fee.. I am planning to order spiral boning, plus the 1/4" flat steels, in bulk. I'd like my next corset to be made in a combination of the two. I prefer to do things the proper way, but when it's a choice of make do or not make the costume, sometimes I choose to make do. I just thought other list members might like to know about a reasonable substitute. Margo Anderson _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ End of h-costume-digest V4 #245 ******************************* _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME-DIGEST From ???@??? Mon Apr 12 09:28:00 1999 Received: from mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE (mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE [130.149.4.14]) by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA06543 for ; Wed, 31 Mar 1999 00:52:08 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from mail.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.15]) by mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10S7Md-0003KG-01; Wed, 31 Mar 1999 00:52:07 +0200 Received: from coal.bg.tu-berlin.de by mail.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Wed, 31 Mar 1999 00:51:57 +0200 Received: from tubkom.prz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.62.9] ident=root) by mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10S7MQ-0003K9-00; Wed, 31 Mar 1999 00:51:54 +0200 Received: from mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE (mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE [130.149.4.14]) by tubkom.prz.tu-berlin.de (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA09814 for ; Wed, 31 Mar 1999 00:50:13 +0200 (MESZ) Received: from mail.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.15]) by mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10S7MM-0003K1-02; Wed, 31 Mar 1999 00:51:50 +0200 Received: from server.indra.com by mail.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Wed, 31 Mar 1999 00:51:38 +0200 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.8.5/) with ESMTP id PAA20541; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 15:50:21 -0700 (MST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id PAA24965 for h-costume-digest-outgoing; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 15:50:07 -0700 (MST) Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 15:50:07 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199903302250.PAA24965@indra.com> From: owner-h-costume-digest@indra.com To: h-costume-digest@indra.com Subject: h-costume-digest V4 #246 Reply-To: h-costume-digest@indra.com Errors-To: owner-h-costume-digest@indra.com Precedence: bulk Status: O h-costume-digest Tuesday, 30 March 1999 Volume 04 : Number 246 In this issue: RE: H-COST: Corset/bra RE: H-COST: Corset/bra H-COST: Re: H-COST: Fabric differences H-COST: Simplicity 8587 H-COST: Ashelford book H-COST: Book question H-COST: block printing block H-COST: Buttons H-COST: Embroidery Stitches Re: H-COST: Buttons Re: H-COST: Embroidery Stitches RE: H-COST: Buttons H-COST: Embroidery Stitches Re: H-COST: Fabric differences ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Margo Anderson Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 09:20:04 -0800 (PST) Subject: RE: H-COST: Corset/bra - -Poster: Margo Anderson : > >Howard Hughes helped develop an "aerodynamic" bra with wire supports >specifically to keep Jane Russell's 38" bust from flopping about >"indecently" while riding a horse in a move he was producing in 1943. I've heard that the bra was actually invented by a nameless costume technician, and that some PR agent came up with the story that Hughes had used his knowledge of areonautical engineering to design it. Poor history, maybe, but absolutely brilliant PR! Margo _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Vickers, Jill" Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 09:44:10 -0800 Subject: RE: H-COST: Corset/bra - -Poster: "Vickers, Jill" This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. - ------ =_NextPart_001_01BE7AD4.EBFC73A0 Content-Type: text/plain It wouldn't be surprising if he didn't truly originate the idea, but from what I read, when Hughes took the issue up with the costume mistress, she declared that she was "...a designer, not an architect!" - -Jill > -Poster: Margo Anderson > > : > > > >Howard Hughes helped develop an "aerodynamic" bra with wire supports > >specifically to keep Jane Russell's 38" bust from flopping about > >"indecently" while riding a horse in a move he was producing in 1943. > > > I've heard that the bra was actually invented by a nameless costume > technician, and that some PR agent came up with the story that Hughes had > used his knowledge of areonautical engineering to design it. > > Poor history, maybe, but absolutely brilliant PR! > > Margo > > _________________________________________________________________ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME > - ------ =_NextPart_001_01BE7AD4.EBFC73A0 Content-Type: text/html Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: H-COST: Corset/bra

It wouldn't = be surprising if he didn't truly originate the idea, but from what I = read, when Hughes took the issue up with the costume mistress, she = declared that she was "...a designer, not an = architect!"

-Jill


    -Poster: Margo Anderson = <margo@directcon.net>

    :
    >
    >Howard Hughes helped develop an = "aerodynamic" bra with wire supports
    >specifically to keep Jane = Russell's 38" bust from flopping about
    >"indecently" while = riding a horse in a move he was producing in 1943.


    I've heard that the bra was actually = invented by a nameless costume
    technician, and that some PR agent = came up with the story that Hughes had
    used his knowledge of areonautical = engineering to design it. 

    Poor history, maybe, but absolutely = brilliant PR!

    Margo

     ___________________________________________________= ______________
     To leave this mailing list, = send mail to majordomo@indra.com
     with the message UNSUBSCRIBE = H-COSTUME

- ------ =_NextPart_001_01BE7AD4.EBFC73A0-- _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Merlyncc@aol.com Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 12:50:55 EST Subject: H-COST: Re: - -Poster: Merlyncc@aol.com Merlyn Custom Costuming 1-800-584-1495 sells Period Patterns and Costume Connection patterns, both of which have medieval clothing in multiple sizes. Folkwear Patterns are also available, but there are not any medieval patterns. Priscilla Schmitz _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Kristen M. Sieber" Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 10:16:36 -0800 (PST) Subject: H-COST: Fabric differences - -Poster: "Kristen M. Sieber" Could someone please tell me the difference (and similarities) between brocade, jacquard, and damask. Thanks. == Morgaine of Glastonbury MKA Kristen Morgaine Sieber Barony of Aquaterra Kingdom of An Tir lady_gawain@yahoo.com _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Kat & Kent Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 12:35:51 -0600 Subject: H-COST: Simplicity 8587 - -Poster: Kat & Kent Simplicity has put out another pattern in their 'historical' line of costumes. It has a simple dress, apron, skirt, cap (close, like an armoring cap), scarf, bodice (they call it a vest), shoes (gillie style), trews (not that they call them that!), hood etc. As usual, they mess up the fabric and some of the pieces parts have to be modified but the pattern runs from XS - XL (multi-sized pattern) and can be a good starting point. They call it a Renaissance pattern but it would work as a starting point for some medieval stuff. If you're so inclined, you might also look at McCall's 8826 (cotehardie & sideless sur); Simplicity 9229 (sleeved tunics/dress, hood, cape); Simplicity 7761 (men's shirt, cape & leggings...ignore the sleeves on the laced 'tunic'); McCall's 8827 (sleeved tunic, sleeveless tunic, soft hat & pouch); and McCall's 9426 (t-tunic, tabard, capuchin [sp!]. Remember to totally ignore the fabric. Most of these require at least *some* modification but personally, I find it easier to modify an existing pattern rather than making one from scratch (except for t-tunics but I do those in my sleep!! ). Kat _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Donna Kenton Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 14:00:39 -0500 Subject: H-COST: Ashelford book - -Poster: Donna Kenton I'm supposed to be building some clothing based on pictures from this book: A Visual History of Costume : The Sixteenth Century by Jane Ashelford. I have scads of books, but not this one. I can photocopy the requisite pages, or I can break down and buy the book. I'm interested in opinions. Is this one of those "gotta haves"? Is the research shakey? What does this book have that some others don't? I'd appreciate any input. Thanks! Donna - ------------ Donna Kenton * donna@dabbler.com _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Kat & Kent Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 14:51:44 -0600 Subject: H-COST: Book question - -Poster: Kat & Kent I stopped by my dad's to pick up the tapes of "Inherit the Wind" (his fall play next year...we're doing "Much Ado About Nothing" for the spring) and he had picked up a book from his favorite used book store for me. It's _Dressing the Part: A History of Costume for the Theatre_ by Fairfax Walkup (revised edition). Does anyone know anything about this book? Kat _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Susannah Eanes" Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 13:22:20 PST Subject: H-COST: block printing block - -Poster: "Susannah Eanes" Hi guys, We have an interesting artifact & wondered if anyone knew if it might be useful for printing on solid-color linens in order to make Trade Shirts for some of our 18th c. native American re-enactor friends. It is a wooden block, about 5x5 inches square, rather roughly finished, with a crude wooden handle carved from the top and small metal comma-shaped (early paisley figures?) pieces wedged into the flat underside. These comma shaped pieces are regularly spaced, alternately upside-down & right-side up, about 3/4 inch apart. They are about 1/4" long. It must be a printing block of some type; we picked it up for $5 at a "gee I dunno what it is" sale at a local Antique mall. Could this be an 18th c. wood block for printing fabric? Does anyone know or have a good source for information about early woodblock fabric printing? Type of inks/dyes best to use? We were wondering about trying a red-on-white or navy blue-on-white trial print. Any and all information from list readers would be very much appreciated. Susannah Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Hilary Doda Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 16:48:13 -0500 Subject: H-COST: Buttons - -Poster: Hilary Doda Hi, all! I have a problem that I'm hoping someone here can help me with. I'm currently in university, and one of my profs was spouting off today, as usual, on topics about which he knows nothing. His latest ~intriguing~ statement was that 'all buttons, until the 1960s, were made from shell'. I challenged him on this one, naturally, and he backpedalled to 'most buttons between the beginning of the 19th cen and the 1960s were made of shell'. I challenged him again, and he brushed me off by telling me to "go find some statistics to prove your point." grrrrrr...... Unfortunately, he's a pompous jerk who think's he's always right, and who can't take corrections - especially from girls. So the challenge is, now, to find some statistics on what kinds of buttons were used between 1800 and 1960. I can't use pictures, because he'll call 'em a unique occurrance. bleah. Any ideas on where I should look, or what tactics to use? I've gotten so fed up with this guy... Or am I wrong, and have I just made a big fool out of myself? I find it hard to believe that people just stopped using metal buttons... Hilary Doda/Joane Steward. ********************************************** "Good drama is like Soylent Green - it's made of people." - Steph Brochu _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: CDepner26@webtv.net (Harold Hensley) Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 17:07:34 -0500 (EST) Subject: H-COST: Embroidery Stitches - -Poster: CDepner26@webtv.net (Harold Hensley) Does anyone know what embroidery stitches were used during the twelfth century? C. Depner _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Donna Kenton Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 17:24:26 -0500 Subject: Re: H-COST: Buttons - -Poster: Donna Kenton There was a shirtwaist button called Dorset buttons (a cottage industry in Dorset, England), which was a ring, bound with decorative thread stitches. 1800s, if I recall correctly. Donna - ------------- Donna Kenton At 04:48 PM 3/30/99 -0500, you wrote: > >-Poster: Hilary Doda > >Hi, all! I have a problem that I'm hoping someone here can help me with. >I'm currently in university, and one of my profs was spouting off today, >as usual, on topics about which he knows nothing. His latest ~intriguing~ >statement was that 'all buttons, until the 1960s, were made from shell'. I >challenged him on this one, naturally, and he backpedalled to 'most >buttons between the beginning of the 19th cen and the 1960s were made of >shell'. I challenged him again, and he brushed me off by telling me to "go >find some statistics to prove your point." grrrrrr...... Unfortunately, >he's a pompous jerk who think's he's always right, and who can't take >corrections - especially from girls. > >So the challenge is, now, to find some statistics on what kinds of buttons >were used between 1800 and 1960. I can't use pictures, because he'll call >'em a unique occurrance. bleah. Any ideas on where I should look, or what >tactics to use? I've gotten so fed up with this guy... Or am I wrong, and >have I just made a big fool out of myself? I find it hard to believe that >people just stopped using metal buttons... > >Hilary Doda/Joane Steward. > > > >********************************************** > >"Good drama is like Soylent Green - it's made of people." > - Steph Brochu > _________________________________________________________________ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME > > _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Merouda the True of Bornover Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 14:30:43 -0800 Subject: Re: H-COST: Embroidery Stitches - -Poster: Merouda the True of Bornover Which country? I know that in England, they used split, chain, stem, laid & couched using silks, metalics, sometimes wool. On linen and silk. You might want to check out the Historical Needlework list at: http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html and look for H-Needlework in their list of lists. Cynthia > Does anyone know what embroidery stitches were used during the twelfth > century? - -- Cynthia Long Merouda the True of Bornover Barony of Madrone Kingdom of An Tir _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Deborah von Seggern" Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 14:37:20 -0800 Subject: RE: H-COST: Buttons - -Poster: "Deborah von Seggern" There is a book called "50 Heirloom Buttons to Make" which has documentation on historical buttons. This includes the Dorset button mentioned below. Amazon.com has the book but I am not sure that you will find this one in a library. Here is the link to the book on Amazon: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1561581461 I have the book at home but can't remember the specific documentation that the author uses. Maybe someone else on the list has other information. . . ------------------------------ From: CDepner26@webtv.net (Harold Hensley) Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 17:48:38 -0500 (EST) Subject: H-COST: Embroidery Stitches - -Poster: CDepner26@webtv.net (Harold Hensley) Where can I find documention for these stitches? C. Depner _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: AnnBWass@aol.com Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 17:48:50 EST Subject: Re: H-COST: Fabric differences - -Poster: AnnBWass@aol.com Jacquard refers to an attachment for a loom that will do any of the fancy woven patterns. Properly, it does not refer to a fabric, nor does it refer to a loom. The jacquard attachment made it possible to "automate" weaving of the fancy patterns that were previously very labor intensive, being done on a draw loom, which required an assistant to the weaver to raise and lower the correct warp threads at each pick. (Note that all very fancy weaves can also be done on the simplest loom--just over and under, but they take forever!) Brocade and damask are similar. Both have fancy woven patterns, usually with a satin-weave background. Brocade figures have looser threads, while in damsk the figure threads are actually bound into the material by the use of a tight construction. Brocades are usually (but not always) in silk or silk-like fibers, often with multiple colors, while damasks are may be in cotton, silk, or wool (or synthetic imitations) with the whole thing usually one color. Someone else may be able to add some clarification. Ann Wass _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ End of h-costume-digest V4 #246 ******************************* _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME-DIGEST From ???@??? Mon Apr 12 09:28:00 1999 Received: from mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE (mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE [130.149.4.14]) by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA06841 for ; Wed, 31 Mar 1999 02:17:18 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from mail.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.15]) by mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10S8h3-0004Lk-02; Wed, 31 Mar 1999 02:17:17 +0200 Received: from coal.bg.tu-berlin.de by mail.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Wed, 31 Mar 1999 02:17:04 +0200 Received: from mail.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.15]) by mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10S8gn-0004Lh-00; Wed, 31 Mar 1999 02:17:01 +0200 Received: from tubkom.prz.tu-berlin.de by mail.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Wed, 31 Mar 1999 02:16:54 +0200 Received: from mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE (mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE [130.149.4.14]) by tubkom.prz.tu-berlin.de (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id CAA10306 for ; Wed, 31 Mar 1999 02:15:07 +0200 (MESZ) Received: from mail.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.15]) by mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10S8gX-0004LT-01; Wed, 31 Mar 1999 02:16:45 +0200 Received: from server.indra.com by mail.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Wed, 31 Mar 1999 02:16:31 +0200 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.8.5/) with ESMTP id RAA07584; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 17:15:26 -0700 (MST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id RAA10417 for h-costume-digest-outgoing; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 17:15:05 -0700 (MST) Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 17:15:05 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199903310015.RAA10417@indra.com> From: owner-h-costume-digest@indra.com To: h-costume-digest@indra.com Subject: h-costume-digest V4 #247 Reply-To: h-costume-digest@indra.com Errors-To: owner-h-costume-digest@indra.com Precedence: bulk Status: O h-costume-digest Tuesday, 30 March 1999 Volume 04 : Number 247 In this issue: H-COST:corded petticoat Re: H-COST: Fabric differences Re: H-COST: Buttons Re: H-COST: Buttons H-COST: another AlterYears complaint... Re: H-COST: Buttons Re: H-COST: Embroidery Stitches Re: H-COST: another AlterYears complaint... Re: H-COST: Buttons H-COST: buttons Re: H-COST: Buttons Re: H-COST: another AlterYears complaint... Re: H-COST: Buttons ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Margo Anderson Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 14:40:50 -0800 (PST) Subject: H-COST:corded petticoat - -Poster: Margo Anderson I would like to make an 1850's corded petticoat. Would it be appropriate to make it in a solid color other than white, preferably dark? I have 200 yards of brown cording, I hate brown so it's unlikely I'll use it for trim, and it would show through white. Also, how is the petticoat attached to the waist band? Flat pleats, gathers, or cartridge pleats? Margo _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: AnnBWass@aol.com Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 17:50:17 EST Subject: Re: H-COST: Fabric differences - -Poster: AnnBWass@aol.com Oh, and damask may be of linen, also--often used for tablecloths and such. _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: AnnBWass@aol.com Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 17:52:26 EST Subject: Re: H-COST: Buttons - -Poster: AnnBWass@aol.com There are several good books on buttons you should be able to find without too much difficulty. (By the way, I have some great bakelite and wood buttons in my grandmother-in-law's button box--but I realize that is only anecdotal.) _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: AliaClaire@aol.com Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 17:43:27 EST Subject: Re: H-COST: Buttons - -Poster: AliaClaire@aol.com Good gracious, what a glaring and untrue generality. During the American Civil War, mother-of-pearl buttons were used on almost all underpinnings. For dresses themselves, I have seen originals with fabric covered (the great majority). The one that stands out in my mind is an 1862 wedding dress held by Ohio Historical Society in a brown silk stripe, with the COOLEST self-fabric buttons. For examples of these, see Juanita Leisch's "Who Wore What", page 19, top center and right pictures, page 22, bottom center, page 33, bottom centerpage 34, bottom left corner, page 40, top right (and look at the decorative buttons on the sleeves!), page 49, bottom, page 52, top right, page 71, bottom left, page 81, bottom left, page 89, left side. Some of these are pre- and post-war, but they're all solidly 19th century. In Jane Ashelford's "The Art of Dress", some items of clothing from the 19th century with other types of buttons: page 185, self fabric covered.page 182- woven from thread. An EXCELLENT close-up example! On page 222, the buttons apear to be of jet. Page 226, top right, center woman, they apear to be fabric covered. Page 233: an 1880s wedding dress with self-fabric covered buttons. Page 235: a short mantle with a woven-covered button. Does he need any more? I'll find them. I know I have some lists from Gody's during the war years telling of the kinds of buttons in fashion, if he wants to see it. - -Alison (who is extremely indignant) Stacy AliaClaire@aol.com Canton, Ohio _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Van Cleave & Fleming" Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 18:05:22 -0500 Subject: H-COST: another AlterYears complaint... - -Poster: "Van Cleave & Fleming" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------=_NextPart_000_0025_01BE7AD7.E16061E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I too placed an order in October, 2/3 of which was backordered. I = received one shipment about 2 months after ordering, another in December = or January, and just yesterday received another. Needless to say, there = are still outstanding items. I sent them three emails asking what was = going on. I got a response to the first email saying they were looking = into it, and never heard from them again. It's all about Amazon Drygoods! Kendra Van Cleave - ------=_NextPart_000_0025_01BE7AD7.E16061E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I too placed an order in October, 2/3 of which was = backordered. =20 I received one shipment about 2 months after ordering, another in = December=20 or January, and just yesterday received another.  Needless to say, = there=20 are still outstanding items.  I sent them three emails asking what = was=20 going on.  I got a response to the first email saying they were = looking=20 into it, and never heard from them again.
 
It's all about Amazon Drygoods!
 
Kendra Van Cleave
 
- ------=_NextPart_000_0025_01BE7AD7.E16061E0-- _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Lavolta Press Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 15:17:03 -0800 Subject: Re: H-COST: Buttons - -Poster: Lavolta Press > Hi, all! I have a problem that I'm hoping someone here can help me with. > I'm currently in university, and one of my profs was spouting off today, > as usual, on topics about which he knows nothing. His latest ~intriguing~ > statement was that 'all buttons, until the 1960s, were made from shell'. I > challenged him on this one, naturally, and he backpedalled to 'most > buttons between the beginning of the 19th cen and the 1960s were made of > shell'. I challenged him again, and he brushed me off by telling me to "go > find some statistics to prove your point." grrrrrr...... Unfortunately, > he's a pompous jerk who think's he's always right, and who can't take > corrections - especially from girls. Any button-collecting book will show you many pictures of buttons made from many other materials between 1800 and 1960. Pretty much any material you can think of, from precious metals and stones, through cloisonne, through "base" metals, through fabric (or crochet, or needle lace) over wooden molds, through glass, through tortoiseshell, through vegetable ivory, through, in the 20th century, lots of plastic. I would not quote the _50 Heirloom Buttons to Make_ book even though it's a very good book, because he could just tell you these are a modern author's designs, not originals, and then you'd have to prove otherwise. Button-collecting books do tend to be stronger on beautiful color pictures, than statistics of how many buttons of that type were made. Though I can tell you from observation of period clothes, buttons, and fashion publications that there were many plain buttons that might not wow a collector, but were definitely not made of shell. Offhand I don't know of any books of button statistics. But getting onto another tactic: Sure, your professor should not be spouting off on topics he knows nothing about. But--unless you really need a term paper or thesis topic--is it worth doing the research just for the satisfaction of proving him wrong? A lot of people like that are on the net, just repeatedly picking holes in things people say to make them defend themselves. For example, if you go to him with more information he will probably either tell you it's inadequate in some way, or suddenly redefine what he said originally (which it seems he's already done a couple times). Playing this kind of game can take a lot of your time and energy that would be better spent in doing something useful. It's often best to just walk away. Or in your case, keep your mouth shut till the end of the semester and you don't have to deal with this professor any more. Fran Grimble - ---------------------------------------------- Visit our web sites! Books on historic costume and vintage clothes http://www.best.com/~lavolta/index.htm Vintage and historic dance http://www.best.com/~lavolta/dance/index.htm _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Merouda the True of Bornover Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 15:32:10 -0800 Subject: Re: H-COST: Embroidery Stitches - -Poster: Merouda the True of Bornover Go to your local library and check out books on historical embroidery. It's what I did. There are lots of them. > Where can I find documention for these stitches? - -- Cynthia Long Merouda the True of Bornover Barony of Madrone Kingdom of An Tir _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Franchesca Havas" Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 17:37:42 -0600 Subject: Re: H-COST: another AlterYears complaint... - -Poster: "Franchesca Havas" Mine is about glove patterns. I was teaching a class on the construction of gloves. I ordered their patterns and a set from Amazon Dry Goods. ADG had them to me in 3 days. AY lost my order. I called and confirmed my order 5 days later to find out that they lost it but traced the purchase through my credit card since I had that information in front of me. I had to teach this class in less than 30 days now. I told them this. They assured me they would have the gloves out that week. 5 more days went by, I called again. They did not have the patterns and were back ordered. I told them again that I had a class to teach at the end of that month. I call a week later, they said the patterns were on their way. Two weeks AFTER my class I call again. The lady who answered the phone told me that they will be on their way that day. Then she had the audacity to reprimand ME for not ordering the gloves a month in advance! She had my receipt in front of her with the date of my order! AARUGGG!!!!! I have not ordered from them in awhile. Only a catalogue to show others the different patterns available. And I always tell anyone that orders from them to: 1. make sure they get a name when they place an order. 2. Not to hang up until they can confirm the product is in house and ready to ship or if it is going to be back ordered. 3. And above all to be as nice as possible so that they can get the answers they need. 4. If back ordered ask the person, by their first name, what the anticipated time of arrival to them is and the turn around before it is mailed. They are not an outfit that will gyp you, remember that, they will get the product to you just not as fast as ADG. If you are willing to wait you will get your product. I am sure there are a few out there with ADG stories as well but all in all they BOTH are reputable. Sincerely, F. Havas - -----Original Message----- From: Van Cleave & Fleming To: h-costume@indra.com Date: Tuesday, March 30, 1999 5:10 PM Subject: H-COST: another AlterYears complaint... _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Franchesca Havas" Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 17:42:44 -0600 Subject: Re: H-COST: Buttons - -Poster: "Franchesca Havas" The question really is are you willing to pass this class or not? Go to him and offer a research paper on the subject for extra credit. Take it from someone that got indefinitely suspended from UT- Austin for being just like you. Do be careful. They are powerful. Unless you can get this guy fired you will not win this argument no matter what you bring to the class. I am not saying give up, I am saying take the higher ground, he will respect you, female or not, for doing it. THAT is the showing him up that he is looking for, not a fight that he knows you will not win. He will never concede to it. Embarrass him and you will pay, not him. Wish someone had told me this..... Sincerely, F. Havas - -----Original Message----- From: Hilary Doda To: h-costume@indra.com Date: Tuesday, March 30, 1999 4:09 PM Subject: H-COST: Buttons : :-Poster: Hilary Doda : :Hi, all! I have a problem that I'm hoping someone here can help me with. :I'm currently in university, and one of my profs was spouting off today, :as usual, on topics about which he knows nothing. His latest ~intriguing~ :statement was that 'all buttons, until the 1960s, were made from shell'. I :challenged him on this one, naturally, and he backpedalled to 'most :buttons between the beginning of the 19th cen and the 1960s were made of :shell'. I challenged him again, and he brushed me off by telling me to "go :find some statistics to prove your point." grrrrrr...... Unfortunately, :he's a pompous jerk who think's he's always right, and who can't take :corrections - especially from girls. : :So the challenge is, now, to find some statistics on what kinds of buttons :were used between 1800 and 1960. I can't use pictures, because he'll call :'em a unique occurrance. bleah. Any ideas on where I should look, or what :tactics to use? I've gotten so fed up with this guy... Or am I wrong, and :have I just made a big fool out of myself? I find it hard to believe that :people just stopped using metal buttons... : :Hilary Doda/Joane Steward. : : : :********************************************** : :"Good drama is like Soylent Green - it's made of people." : - Steph Brochu : _________________________________________________________________ : To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com : with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME : _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: pulliam@acadia.net (Deborah Pulliam) Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 18:43:42 -0500 Subject: H-COST: buttons - -Poster: pulliam@acadia.net (Deborah Pulliam) <> There are plenty of other materials used for buttons -- including synthetics (bakelite being a common one earlier in this century.) Glass, crystal, bone, ceramics, horn, silk, linen and cotton thread, worked over bases of various material, wood, leather, metals of various kinds, tortoise shell .... There are actually quite a few books out on buttons, because there is a huge population of button collectors out there. Check the local library and/or bookstore. You might also check one of the thesis/dissertation databases. No doubt some archaeology grad student has done something on them. Deborah p.s. your prof is *way* off base. _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Merouda the True of Bornover Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 15:50:20 -0800 Subject: Re: H-COST: Buttons - -Poster: Merouda the True of Bornover I recommend you get your hands on these two books. The Museum of London Textiles and Clothing and the Museum of London Dress Accessories. Your University Libraries should have at least one of them. The textiles book has buttons made from fabric and the accessories book has buttons made from metals. From 1150 to 1450. Really knock his socks off.... heh heh. Cynthia > His latest ~intriguing~ > :statement was that 'all buttons, until the 1960s, were made from shell'. I > :challenged him on this one, naturally, and he backpedalled to 'most > :buttons between the beginning of the 19th cen and the 1960s were made of > :shell'. - -- Cynthia Long Merouda the True of Bornover Barony of Madrone Kingdom of An Tir _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "TC Carstensen" Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 18:59:46 -0500 Subject: Re: H-COST: another AlterYears complaint... - -Poster: "TC Carstensen" Kendar Van Cleave wrote: >I too placed an order in October, 2/3 of which was backordered. I received one >shipment about 2 months after ordering, another in December or January, and just >yesterday received another. I'm sorry to hear that their customer service has gone so far downhill. I had always enjoyed doing business with them in the past. I knew they were having problems due to the illness and death of one of the owners, but I would have expected things to have settled down by now. The policy of keeping far fewer patterns in stock to make inventory keeping easier sounds like a very stupid business decision. Even if the real reason is that they need to keep down the overhead, it's still counterproductive in the long run. Most people hate waiting even weeks to get their patterns. How can Alter Years possibly expect to keep their customers if they have to wait months now? I hope they realize that they've been making some poor choices before they lose too many customers because of it. TC Carstensen _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Lavolta Press Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 16:06:57 -0800 Subject: Re: H-COST: Buttons - -Poster: Lavolta Press Franchesca Havas wrote: > -Poster: "Franchesca Havas" > > The question really is are you willing to pass this class or not? > > Go to him and offer a research paper on the subject for extra credit. If you do any kind of presentation I'd certainly suggest making it a formal one for credit. Not only would you get something in return for your research (in addition to learning more about buttons) you could make it seem like _his_ idea for you to write this paper and thus be on his better side. I doubt he is just "looking for a showing up." A good history professor encourages students to argue against him or her and is pleased as long as they can make a good case for their ideas. The students are (or should be) taught to do analysis, not to just parrot the professor. However, it sounds to me like this guy is not a good professor. If the course subject is not something (like history or clothing design) on which you could plausibly produce a paper on buttons (and I had, for example, literature professors who spouted off on subjects they were ignorant of), I'd still recommend just dropping the whole issue. (As regards your professor; you can of course read up on buttons for your own information.) If you have not already discovered this there are some poor professors even at good universities. When I was a student we all used to get "reviews" of professors from people who had taken their classes. I avoided signing up for classes with any who were reviewed as space cadets, askers-out of female students around grade-giving time, etc. Fran - ---------------------------------------------- Visit our web sites! Books on historic costume and vintage clothes http://www.best.com/~lavolta/index.htm Vintage and historic dance http://www.best.com/~lavolta/dance/index.htm _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ End of h-costume-digest V4 #247 ******************************* _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME-DIGEST From ???@??? Mon Apr 12 09:28:00 1999 Received: from mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE (mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE [130.149.4.14]) by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA07602 for ; Wed, 31 Mar 1999 06:42:15 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from mail.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.15]) by mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10SCpS-0006gt-00; Wed, 31 Mar 1999 06:42:14 +0200 Received: from coal.bg.tu-berlin.de by mail.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Wed, 31 Mar 1999 06:42:07 +0200 Received: from tubkom.prz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.62.9] ident=root) by mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10SCpG-0006gm-00; Wed, 31 Mar 1999 06:42:03 +0200 Received: from mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE (mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE [130.149.4.14]) by tubkom.prz.tu-berlin.de (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id GAA11517 for ; Wed, 31 Mar 1999 06:40:20 +0200 (MESZ) Received: from mail.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.15]) by mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10SCpC-0006gi-01; Wed, 31 Mar 1999 06:41:58 +0200 Received: from server.indra.com by mail.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Wed, 31 Mar 1999 06:41:52 +0200 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.8.5/) with ESMTP id VAA18509; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 21:41:03 -0700 (MST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id VAA12805 for h-costume-digest-outgoing; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 21:40:20 -0700 (MST) Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 21:40:20 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199903310440.VAA12805@indra.com> From: owner-h-costume-digest@indra.com To: h-costume-digest@indra.com Subject: h-costume-digest V4 #248 Reply-To: h-costume-digest@indra.com Errors-To: owner-h-costume-digest@indra.com Precedence: bulk Status: O h-costume-digest Tuesday, 30 March 1999 Volume 04 : Number 248 In this issue: H-COST: Re: 12th c embroidery stitches Re: H-COST: Buttons Re: H-COST: Embroidery Stitches Re: H-COST: Ashelford book RE: H-COST: Corset/bra H-COST: Re: corded petticoat Re: H-COST: block printing block Re: H-COST: Buttons H-COST: button help - thank you!! H-COST: russian costume Re: H-COST: Buttons Re: H-COST: Buttons Re: H-COST: Buttons Re: H-COST: FO! Victorian Underpinnings, Sumptuously Sized ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Gary Stephens Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 19:54:53 -0500 (EST) Subject: H-COST: Re: 12th c embroidery stitches - -Poster: Gary Stephens Cynthia, >Where can I find documention for these stitches? This subject has been my personal field of study for five years now, not just in an academic sense, but in an applied sense. I've completed many works in this style and feel confident of my knowledge. I'd suggest you study any of the opus anglicanum books available. I'll append a bit of a list in a moment. With regard what stitches were used, depends on whether the garment or item were ecclesiastical or for personal use. Chain, split, satin (in sparse quantities, this didn't become truly vogue until the 16th & 17th centuries), outline, back, running and a variety of couching were all used in both types of embroideries. What is unique to ecclesiastical work is or nue, a very highly developed form of couching which is spectacular when done correctly. The books you need to find are: The Art of Embroidery, Schuette and somebody or other. This is a huge tome of a book, out of print, sometimes available through ILO, almost impossible to acquire through antiquarian sellers unless one wishes to mortgage one's life. I HIGHLY RECOMMEND THIS BOOK. It is bible. Opus Anglicanum. This is a wee booklet put out by the V&A for an exhibition they had some years ago. The detail and information is impeccable. Embroiderers. This is published by the UofT press, a wee trade publication which is a good, basic introduction, but not be taken as the penultimate. Restoration of Embroidery & Tapestry, Getty Foundation. This is a highly technical book, loaded with invaluable information to which you will refer time and again. I HIGHLY RECOMMEND THIS BOOK. There are many others, but these will give you a good, basic foundation for the European 12th century. regards Lorina Stephens - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Five Rivers Chapmanry purveyors of quality hand-crafted cooperage period furniture & fine hand-sewn garments lgsteph@golden.net _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: The Purple Elephant Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 11:28:09 +0930 (CST) Subject: Re: H-COST: Buttons - -Poster: The Purple Elephant On Tue, 30 Mar 1999 AnnBWass@aol.com wrote: > > -Poster: AnnBWass@aol.com > > There are several good books on buttons you should be able to find without too > much difficulty. (By the way, I have some great bakelite and wood buttons in > my grandmother-in-law's button box--but I realize that is only anecdotal.) My great-gran had one of those...I used to love playing with it as a kiddie. It had hundreds of buttons, and I don't recall a single shell one (although admittedly, I don't recall many of them...it was 20 years ago). - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Claire F. Clarke "What is this world if, full of care, Physicist, writer, We have no time to stand and stare?" and non environmentally Robert Louis Stevenson friendly substance. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Gia Gavino-Gattshall" Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 17:11:32 -0800 Subject: Re: H-COST: Embroidery Stitches - -Poster: "Gia Gavino-Gattshall" To expand a bit on this excellent advice, might I suggest a few books? I don't recollect that actual time period and geographical location of the original request (and of course I've already deleted it!), but I think some of these books have a broad enough informational base to help. Textiles in Daily Life in the Middle Ages, by Rebecca Martin. It's about a special exhibition at the Cleveland Museum of Art ISBN 0-910386-80-3 A Pictorial History of Embroidery, by Marie Schuette and Sigrid Mueller-Christensen (text translated by Donald King). The Materials and Techniques chapter is written by Agnes Geiger. Library of Congress cat. # 64-13379 Guide to English Embroidery, by Patricia Wardle foreword by Digby. Sorry I don't have a ISBN #. It's about the V & A museum collections. Textiles in Northern Archaelology; NESAT III: Textile Symposium in York. Edited by Penelope Walton and John-Peter Wild. Especially the chapter by Helen. M. Stevens, "Maaseik reconstructed: a practial investigation and interpretation of 8th centry embroidery techniques." ISBN 1 873132 05 0 Hope these help! Gia/Giacinta > >-Poster: Merouda the True of Bornover > >Go to your local library and check out books on historical >embroidery. It's what I did. There are lots of them. > >> Where can I find documention for these stitches? > >-- >Cynthia Long >Merouda the True of Bornover >Barony of Madrone >Kingdom of An Tir > > > _________________________________________________________________ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME > _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: AliaClaire@aol.com Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 21:10:45 EST Subject: Re: H-COST: Ashelford book - -Poster: AliaClaire@aol.com In a message dated 3/30/99 9:06:31 PM EST, kenton@neaccess.net writes: > A Visual History of Costume: The Sixteenth Century by Jane Ashelford. I have another Jane Ashelford, The Art of Dress. I've found it very nice, both well-researched and well illustrated. I didn't know she did period-specific books. I'd look through it first, but it's something I'd buy based on her earlier work. - -Alison (who would rather talk about old clothes then write a history essay) Stacy AliaClaire@aol.com Canton, Ohio _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Julie Adams Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 18:19:26 -0800 (PST) Subject: RE: H-COST: Corset/bra - -Poster: Julie Adams There is an early 19th c brassiere on page 103 of "Revolution in Fashion 1715-1815" by the Kyoto Costume Institute. It looks like a cross over sports bra with some boning over each breast... Julie Adams _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: ArcadiaCB@aol.com Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 21:15:33 EST Subject: H-COST: Re: corded petticoat - -Poster: ArcadiaCB@aol.com Hi Margo, Re your questions on a corded petticoat (one of the things I've always meant to make and never have time), I'll describe the original I have in my collection. It's made of 3 panels (2) of 35" and one of 16" (after seaming) of a fairly heavy white cotton. The cording is poking out in some places and is a 1/4" diameter white cording. From wist to hem is 38". The cording starts app. 18" from the waist, with the first 4 cords being 2" apart, then they gradually go down to app 1 1/2 apart. Ther are 11 cord rows in all, just the fabric pulled together and stitched in back to make the rows, plus a double cord for the hem. The hem seems to an extra 1 1/2: which is turned under and stitched in place just under the last cord row. The waistband is 1" wide, just a 2"+ piece folded over and the petticoat skirt is gauged/cartridge pleated into the waistband. The placket opening is 11" long, done on the join of two panels. The interersting thing to me is that on the waistband are (5) 3/4" buttonholes--one at each end of the waistband, one at the opposite end (center front?) and one on each side between these three. Possibly this was a petticoat for a young girl or teen and was fastened to some type of corset/waist? (any helpful comments out there??) There is a replaced part of a panel plus a repair by the placket. Anyway hope that helps. Charlene Bullard _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Susan Fatemi Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 18:54:49 -0800 Subject: Re: H-COST: block printing block - -Poster: Susan Fatemi Susannah Eanes wrote: > ... > wooden block, about 5x5 inches square, rather roughly finished, with a > crude wooden handle carved from the top and small metal comma-shaped > (early paisley figures?) pieces wedged into the flat underside. These > comma shaped pieces are regularly spaced, alternately upside-down & > right-side up, about 3/4 inch apart. They are about 1/4" long. It must > be a printing block of some type; we picked it up for $5 at a "gee I > dunno what it is" sale at a local Antique mall. Could this be an 18th > c. wood block for printing fabric? Does anyone know or have a good > source for information about early woodblock fabric printing? Type of ... Maybe someone else will know for sure, but it's likely either an Indian block for printing *resist* (clay/mud or food starch) on fabric or an Indonesian "tjap" for printing wax resist for batik. The metal edged ones aren't used for printing dyes, just resists. They're still making them, but it is an ancient technology. Susan Fatemi - -- Oh Noh! Kimonos! susanf@netwiz.net http://www.netwiz.net/~susanf _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Susan Fatemi Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 18:58:35 -0800 Subject: Re: H-COST: Buttons - -Poster: Susan Fatemi Hilary Doda wrote: > > -Poster: Hilary Doda > > Hi, all! I have a problem that I'm hoping someone here can help me with. > I'm currently in university, and one of my profs was spouting off today, > as usual, on topics about which he knows nothing. His latest ~intriguing~ > statement was that 'all buttons, until the 1960s, were made from shell'. I Maybe he meant "all SHIRT buttons"!! Otherwise, if he's old enough to remember life before the '60's, he must not have been very observant. Susan F. - -- Oh Noh! Kimonos! susanf@netwiz.net http://www.netwiz.net/~susanf _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Hilary Doda Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 19:26:18 -0500 Subject: H-COST: button help - thank you!! - -Poster: Hilary Doda I just wanted to thank everybody for all of your help and words of support. I'm not *just* trying to show him up - I started to wonder about the issue after the class ended. I'm definitely hitting the library tomorrow to see which of the books they've got in! Oh, and he's an anthropology prof, for the person who asked.. (Fran?) Ecological Anthropology, to be precise. We were discussing the economics of the Torres Strait, and the over-hunting of the oyster beds there during the 19th cen. "Because shell was used for all the buttons..." . I do have a paper to write for the course, although I don't think buttons is going to cut it. Maybe I can do something on the exploitation of natural resources in the name of fashion.... I already managed to do my Gender and the State paper on corsetry! . I love university sometimes... and thanks again! Hilary Doda/Joane Steward. ********************************************** "Good drama is like Soylent Green - it's made of people." - Steph Brochu _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Susan Fatemi Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 19:28:59 -0800 Subject: H-COST: russian costume - -Poster: Susan Fatemi I work in a library and ran across this title while looking for something else (not the actual book, just the title) Thought it might be of interest to the list. The Costume of the Russian empire / illustrated by a series of seventy-three engravings ; with descriptions in English and French. London : Printed for William Miller ... by Howlett and Brimmer ...,1803. If you're very rich, you can purchase it at: http://www.studiobardi.com/homepagee.htm I made a list of the libraries that have it: NY public, U. Chicago, U. Wisconsin, Minneapolis Public, the Smithsonian, someplace in Alabama (Spring Hill?) New Orleans Public. This would be fabulous if someone could get it and put it up on the web, like the Tilke book. I haven't actually seen it, but it sounds fabulous! > Susan F. - -- Oh Noh! Kimonos! susanf@netwiz.net http://www.netwiz.net/~susanf _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Carol J. Bell Cannon" Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 19:34:42 -0800 Subject: Re: H-COST: Buttons - -Poster: "Carol J. Bell Cannon" I wondered if anyone who has Queen Elizabeth's Wardrobe might peek to see if it might be a worthwhile reference for this lady's paper. Ditto Hunnisett or some of the other 'standards'. I might also drop by the Design and Textiles Departments if I were she and my University had such. It would be wise to ask if your term project might be about the topic, as someone suggested. That might give you an idea if your Prof. is willing to be 'challenged' w/o allowing his feelings to color your grade in the class. Carol _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Bill and/or Glenna Jo Christen Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 23:35:46 -0500 Subject: Re: H-COST: Buttons - -Poster: Bill and/or Glenna Jo Christen - -Poster: AliaClaire@aol.com Good gracious, what a glaring and untrue generality. During the American Civil War, mother-of-pearl buttons were used on almost all underpinnings.... Actually, they were far more likely to be 'milk' glass rather than MoP. I learned the hard way about MoP when I had two of them break in the center and almost lost my drawers. Once in the middle of a ball room and the other in the middle of the parade grounds at Historic Fort Snelling. Now it's sturdy glass buttons for me! Glenna Jo Christen gwjchris@rust.net Visit our web site, "The Curiosity Shop" http://www.rust.net/~gwjchris/ _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Julie Adams Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 20:35:04 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: H-COST: Buttons - -Poster: Julie Adams Well, its pretty standard that many 19th c men's pants had metal buttons, Levi's for instance fall in that time period and had button fly's until recently. Also Californio Men's breeches not only had metal buttons on their fall front, but also often 20+ metal buttons up each leg in the 1830s and 1840s. For statistical information, you might look for button collector web sites and clubs on the web. Or perhaps search ebay until you find a button collector selling some... perhaps they can find more info. Julie Adams _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Margretta de Vries Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 20:41:19 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: H-COST: FO! Victorian Underpinnings, Sumptuously Sized - -Poster: Margretta de Vries > I'm not saying that spiral boning isn't a good > product. I just question whether it's stiff > enough to provide support for an entire Victorian > corset for my body type. What is your body type? It works fine for me, but then my measurements are 44-35-48, and my body has the right shape to start with, for the most part... > I know that if I took the boning out of my tightly > fitted victorian corset and put it on, the top edge > would immediately fold down from the weight of my > breasts, and I suspect that if I boned it with > spirals, I'd have the same result. IMHO, I think it also depends much on the materials and construction of the corset. My "fancy" one (to show off!) is made of chinese silk brocade fused to cotton, and an additional two layers of cotton (lining and underlining)... And it doesn't really bend in any direction that would constitute rolling down. > This might not be the case with a similar corset on a > less abundant figure, Probably. But I think you'd be surprised. > and with a different style such as Elizabethan or > Baroque, the results would also be different. Those I haven't tried yet. > The time to use factor wasn't my problem, it was the > time to get it. I found out about an event I wanted > to attend two weeks before it happened, and I needed > to start that corset immediately. There just wasn't > time to wait for an order to come to California from > New York... Aha. That would certainly make a difference... > I prefer to do things the proper way, but when it's a > choice of make do or not make the costume, sometimes > I choose to make do. Yes, I'm sure everyone does that... I definitely do it on many things--I just took advantage of being in New York to get an abundant supply! > I just thought other list members might like to know > about a reasonable substitute. Makes sense to me! Margretta === Margretta de Vries _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ End of h-costume-digest V4 #248 ******************************* _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME-DIGEST From ???@??? Mon Apr 12 09:28:03 1999 Received: from mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE (mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE [130.149.4.14]) by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA16110 for ; Wed, 31 Mar 1999 15:57:08 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from mail.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.15]) by mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10SLUR-0001PK-00; Wed, 31 Mar 1999 15:57:07 +0200 Received: from coal.bg.tu-berlin.de by mail.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Wed, 31 Mar 1999 15:57:06 +0200 Received: from mail.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.15]) by mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10SLUN-0001P5-01; Wed, 31 Mar 1999 15:57:03 +0200 Received: from tubkom.prz.tu-berlin.de by mail.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Wed, 31 Mar 1999 15:57:00 +0200 Received: from mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE (mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE [130.149.4.14]) by tubkom.prz.tu-berlin.de (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA16164 for ; Wed, 31 Mar 1999 15:55:12 +0200 (MESZ) Received: from mail.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.15]) by mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10SLUB-0001Ox-00; Wed, 31 Mar 1999 15:56:51 +0200 Received: from server.indra.com by mail.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Wed, 31 Mar 1999 15:56:32 +0200 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.8.5/) with ESMTP id GAA25965; Wed, 31 Mar 1999 06:56:35 -0700 (MST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id GAA24201 for h-costume-digest-outgoing; Wed, 31 Mar 1999 06:54:50 -0700 (MST) Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 06:54:50 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199903311354.GAA24201@indra.com> From: owner-h-costume-digest@indra.com To: h-costume-digest@indra.com Subject: h-costume-digest V4 #249 Reply-To: h-costume-digest@indra.com Errors-To: owner-h-costume-digest@indra.com Precedence: bulk h-costume-digest Wednesday, 31 March 1999 Volume 04 : Number 249 In this issue: H-COST: Re: 1850's dress (undersleeves) Re: H-COST: Embroidery Stitches Re: H-COST: Elizabethan shoes Re: H-COST: Mother of Pearl Buttons RE: H-COST: European list H-COST: Who's got the button? Re: H-COST: Buttons RE: H-COST: Buttons Re: H-COST: Buttons H-COST: Block printing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Bill and/or Glenna Jo Christen Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 22:24:29 -0500 Subject: H-COST: Re: 1850's dress (undersleeves) - -Poster: Bill and/or Glenna Jo Christen - - -Poster: AliaClaire@aol.com Simply finish the upper edge and tack it to the lining of the sleeve.... - - -Alison Stacy This is not only a practical solution for wearing undersleeves, but one of the period solutions I've seen or read about. (How clever of them! Right Alison? ;->) All of the solutions mentioned were used at the time; inserting drawstrings or "ribbands" of elastic into casings at the top of the undersleeve were options as as well as basting the top of the undersleeve to the lining of the sleeve. Glenna Jo Christen gwjchris@rust.net Visit our web site, "The Curiosity Shop" http://www.rust.net/~gwjchris/ _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Charlene Charette Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 20:29:06 -0600 Subject: Re: H-COST: Embroidery Stitches - -Poster: Charlene Charette Merouda the True of Bornover wrote: > You might want to check out the Historical Needlework list at: > http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html and look for H-Needlework in > their list of lists. Or send a message of "subscribe h-needlework" to majordomo@ansteorra.org. I'm working on changing the bottom text of the messages; as soon as Pug tells me how. :-) - --Charlene _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Danielle Nunn Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 02:10:58 -0500 Subject: Re: H-COST: Elizabethan shoes - -Poster: Danielle Nunn Greetings >Most of the pictures I've seen don't show shoes. Really, where are you getting the pictures? There are actually lots out there. Try looking in Janet Arnold's "Queen Elizabeth's Wardrobe Unlock'd" and "Patterns of Fashion" for some pictures. >I'm basically looking to answer two questions, round toe, square toe, >and heel, no heel. The answer to that question is yes. ;) When specifically and where are you looking? Styles changed a lot in England during the "Elizabethan" period. For a VERY general answer: square toe, no heel for early; and round toe, heel/no heel for later. It all depends on whether it's a turn shoe or a lasted shoe. >Can you give me more info on the Dress Accessories series. They are by the Museum of London. Actually, Dress Accessories is one of the books, I don't think the books have a series name. If I remember correctly there is (costuming related): Dress Accessories, Clothing & Textiles, and Shoes & Pattens. >Also, does the Museum have a website? Yup, but I don't have the URL. Try searching under Bata Shoe Museum. Cheers, Danielle _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Danielle Nunn Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 02:47:35 -0500 Subject: Re: H-COST: Mother of Pearl Buttons - -Poster: Danielle Nunn Greetings, >During the American Civil War, mother-of-pearl buttons were used on >almost all >underpinnings.... Just to play devil's advocate...Mother of Pearl (mop) could be refered to as shell. Mop is the inner layer of a shell, composed of Calcium Carbonate (in the form of aragonite) and Conchiolin in a nacre producing mollusc. Does that confuse everyone? ;) Cheers, Danielle Nunn-Weinberg, FGA, FcGMA Gemmologist _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Chandler, Sally" Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 09:12:47 +0100 Subject: RE: H-COST: European list - -Poster: "Chandler, Sally" So am I! Could I have details too, please? Sally Ann - -----Original Message----- From: Henk 't Jong [SMTP:scapreel@tip.nl] Sent: Tuesday, March 30, 1999 4:44 PM To: h-costume Subject: Re: H-COST: European list - -Poster: "Henk 't Jong" Henk & Pauline 't Jong tScapreel Medieval Advisors Dordrecht, Netherlands Hello Diana, I'm interested in info on the European historic costume list. Could you send me more? Bye, Henk _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "David W. Rickman" Date: Wed, 31 Mar 99 8:30:48 EST Subject: H-COST: Who's got the button? - -Poster: "David W. Rickman" Hello, Regarding this question from Hilary: > >-Poster: Hilary Doda > >Hi, all! I have a problem that I'm hoping someone here can help me with. >I'm currently in university, and one of my profs was spouting off today, >as usual, on topics about which he knows nothing. His latest ~intriguing~ >statement was that 'all buttons, until the 1960s, were made from shell'. I >challenged him on this one, naturally, and he backpedalled to 'most >buttons between the beginning of the 19th cen and the 1960s were made of >shell'. I challenged him again, and he brushed me off by telling me to "go >find some statistics to prove your point." grrrrrr...... Unfortunately, >he's a pompous jerk who think's he's always right, and who can't take >corrections - especially from girls. > >So the challenge is, now, to find some statistics on what kinds of buttons >were used between 1800 and 1960. I can't use pictures, because he'll call >'em a unique occurrance. bleah. Any ideas on where I should look, or what >tactics to use? I've gotten so fed up with this guy... Or am I wrong, and >have I just made a big fool out of myself? I find it hard to believe that >people just stopped using metal buttons... > >Hilary Doda/Joane Steward. I am glad you asked this question, because it touches on the nature of evidence and the historic record. The fact of the matter is, your professor is just as duty-bound to "go find some statistics" as you are; more so, in fact. Whenever we make a statement about the presence of some item in a past period, we have to prove its presence by giving examples from primary sources. Your professor, then, if he wants to play this game we call history, must now either "put up or shut up." One cannot just say, for example, "Roman soldiers wore black leather high heels with pointy toes" without giving some evidence. What your professor has done is to commit a pretty grave sin in historical method. He has thrown out a statement of dubious authenticity, without offering any supporting facts of his own, and then challenged you to prove him wrong. Proving the negative is extremely difficult, and sometimes impossible, but in fact, it puts the shoe on the wrong foot. It is your professor who should be proving his statement first. I would suggest that the only way you could get some statistical evidence that might help is to consult the archaeological record. Archaeologists are, in a way, like opinion pollsters. We accept that if you sample a representative number of people, you will get an accurate idea of what the population as a whole is thinking or doing. Similarly, if we sample a representative number of sites, compare the number of shell buttons found there to the number of buttons found that are made of the many other materials used between 1800 and 1960 (including bone, metal, ceramic, bakelite and wood), then you should have enough statistical evidence to convince any reasonable person of your point. Oh, and by the way, did I say that you are clearly in the right on this question? The very statement that shell was the most common material for buttons before 1960 proves only one thing to me, that your professor was born after 1960. But again, you have every right to challenge him to offer his evidence first - since he made his statement first. But be prepared for him to refuse unreasonably and then deck him with the archaeological record. Best of luck. David Rickman drickman@state.de.us _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Ulrike Borghorst" Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 15:43:20 +0200 Subject: Re: H-COST: Buttons - -Poster: "Ulrike Borghorst" One more to this question, as far as southwest Germany is concerned: here something from an exhibition catalogue, the exhibiton was about buttons, zippers and laces, 23.10.94 to 29.01.95 in Waldenbuch, Germany. Its name and the name of the catalogue is "Auf und Zu - von Knoepfen, Schnueren, Reissverschluessen..." ISBN 3-9290055-34-1 One essay is about buttons on men clothes of the rural population in the 19th century and it cites a high department report describing the buttons made of tin or silver (depending on how rich people were). One article is about undergarments 1870 to 1970, and it says that in the 19th century beside mother-of-pearl bone was the main material for buttons because it was resistent against soap, hot water, sweat, ironing etc. Others were fabric-covered metal buttons. Last article is about a button factory in Wuerttemberg. Founded 1931 they used to make buttons of "Galalith" or "Kasein" (whatever that may be in english). During WWII they used vulcanized fibre, after they used beech wood and in the fifties it was the first button factory in Germany using polyester for buttons, following the US exemplar. And maybe you can have a look at Civil War uniforms. What material were the buttons of? Ulrike > Hi, all! I have a problem that I'm hoping someone here can help me > with. I'm currently in university, and one of my profs was spouting > off today, as usual, on topics about which he knows nothing. His > latest ~intriguing~ statement was that 'all buttons, until the > 1960s, were made from shell'. I challenged him on this one, > naturally, and he backpedalled to 'most buttons between the > beginning of the 19th cen and the 1960s were made of shell'. I > challenged him again, and he brushed me off by telling me to "go > find some statistics to prove your point." grrrrrr...... > Unfortunately, he's a pompous jerk who think's he's always right, > and who can't take corrections - especially from girls. > > So the challenge is, now, to find some statistics on what kinds of > buttons were used between 1800 and 1960. I can't use pictures, > because he'll call 'em a unique occurrance. bleah. Any ideas on > where I should look, or what tactics to use? I've gotten so fed up > with this guy... Or am I wrong, and have I just made a big fool out > of myself? I find it hard to believe that people just stopped using > metal buttons... > > Hilary Doda/Joane Steward. > > > > ********************************************** > > "Good drama is like Soylent Green - it's made of people." > - Steph Brochu > _________________________________________________________________ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with > the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ================================================================= Ulrike Borghorst UNIVERSITAETSBIBLIOTHEK TUEBINGEN Postfach 2620 Tel.:+49 7071 / 29-77859 72016 Tuebingen Fax :+49 7071 / 29-3123 http://www.uni-tuebingen.de/ub ================================================================= _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Hope H. Dunlap" Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 08:50:06 -0500 Subject: RE: H-COST: Buttons - -Poster: "Hope H. Dunlap" Going on memory here, which is always dangerous . . . But I think Cunnington had a good analysis of 19th century underclothes buttons in his book, The History of Underclothes (or very similar title-- and I seem to remember it was his, not one that he and his wife co-authored, but I could be wrong). He described the sequence of buttons in the 19th Century because they were a key way to date historic underclothes and their subsequent repairs. Shirts were considered underclothes at this time. I seem to remember the Dorset, i.e. thread covered buttons, dominating in the first 40 years of the century. Made from a ring of linen thread wound around the tip of a pointed stick (about pencil sized). The ring was formed by several windings, and then removed to finish with buttonhole stitch and various designs. I forget the array of buttons which replaced these. Using tiny brass rings for inside of the thread buttons instead of the thread loop was unneccessary, but occurred more and more as the century progressed, I believe, but you'd better check the book to make sure I've got it right. For coats and outerclothes, the cloth covered button over a nut, stone, padding, brass ring, etc was prevalent in the early part of the century I think, as well as brass buttons. The cloth covered buttons were frequently decorated with "death's head" and other very simple and durable embroidery patterns in silk or other material. I inherited a canister of buttons sealed in a stuck drawer of a 1920's style desk I bought once. Over half of the buttons, and virtually all of the smaller ones were shell. It was clear they were used, and some of them so well used that the shell had lost its sheen and the surface was sandy textured. If my mother's habits are indicative (she was born in 1922), before any garment was thrown away, the buttons were cut off to be reused. Some buttons in the canister are clearly datable to the 1880's, but I haven't done an exhaustive research, and am just slowly using up this bottomless stash shell buttons on my own projects. The other styles were base metal button forms designed to be self fabric covered, and something which looks like Bakelite with scroll and patterns, and did not survive as well as the shell. Hope H. Dunlap - -----Original Message----- From: owner-h-costume@indra.com [mailto:owner-h-costume@indra.com]On Behalf Of Donna Kenton Sent: Tuesday, March 30, 1999 5:24 PM To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: H-COST: Buttons - -Poster: Donna Kenton There was a shirtwaist button called Dorset buttons (a cottage industry in Dorset, England), which was a ring, bound with decorative thread stitches. 1800s, if I recall correctly. Donna - ------------- Donna Kenton At 04:48 PM 3/30/99 -0500, you wrote: > >-Poster: Hilary Doda > >Hi, all! I have a problem that I'm hoping someone here can help me with. >I'm currently in university, and one of my profs was spouting off today, >as usual, on topics about which he knows nothing. His latest ~intriguing~ >statement was that 'all buttons, until the 1960s, were made from shell'. I >challenged him on this one, naturally, and he backpedalled to 'most >buttons between the beginning of the 19th cen and the 1960s were made of >shell'. I challenged him again, and he brushed me off by telling me to "go >find some statistics to prove your point." grrrrrr...... Unfortunately, >he's a pompous jerk who think's he's always right, and who can't take >corrections - especially from girls. > >So the challenge is, now, to find some statistics on what kinds of buttons >were used between 1800 and 1960. I can't use pictures, because he'll call >'em a unique occurrance. bleah. Any ideas on where I should look, or what >tactics to use? I've gotten so fed up with this guy... Or am I wrong, and >have I just made a big fool out of myself? I find it hard to believe that >people just stopped using metal buttons... > >Hilary Doda/Joane Steward. > > > >********************************************** > >"Good drama is like Soylent Green - it's made of people." > - Steph Brochu > ____________________________________________________________ _____ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME > > ____________________________________________________________ _____ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Emma Elizabeth Lehman <00217146@bigred.unl.edu> Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 07:51:46 -0600 (CST) Subject: Re: H-COST: Buttons - -Poster: Emma Elizabeth Lehman <00217146@bigred.unl.edu> I don't know if it's the same stuff, but casein is a protein in milk. On Wed, 31 Mar 1999, Ulrike Borghorst wrote: > Last article is about a button factory in Wuerttemberg. > Founded 1931 they used to make buttons of "Galalith" or "Kasein" > (whatever that may be in english). _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "David W. Rickman" Date: Wed, 31 Mar 99 8:54:20 EST Subject: H-COST: Block printing - -Poster: "David W. Rickman" Hello, Susan wrote: >Hi guys, >We have an interesting artifact & wondered if anyone knew if it might be >useful for printing on solid-color linens in order to make Trade Shirts >for some of our 18th c. native American re-enactor friends. It is a >wooden block, about 5x5 inches square, rather roughly finished, with a >crude wooden handle carved from the top and small metal comma-shaped >(early paisley figures?) pieces wedged into the flat underside. These >comma shaped pieces are regularly spaced, alternately upside-down & >right-side up, about 3/4 inch apart. They are about 1/4" long. It must >be a printing block of some type; we picked it up for $5 at a "gee I >dunno what it is" sale at a local Antique mall. Could this be an 18th >c. wood block for printing fabric? Does anyone know or have a good >source for information about early woodblock fabric printing? Type of >inks/dyes best to use? We were wondering about trying a red-on-white or >navy blue-on-white trial print. >Any and all information from list readers would be very much >appreciated. >Susannah This sounds to me very much like the kind of wooden block that is used to print fabric, however, it may be Indian (i.e. from India) rather than European. In that case, it may not be very old. I am married to a textile curator, and I just sat through an hour-long presentation in California about the history of printing methods on cotton, but I must admit that the topic is a complex one and I am not prepared to comment on methods, techniques, etc. However, there are many good books on this topic, by such authors as Florence Montgomery and Nathalie Rothstein. However, what I would like to suggest is that Nativer American reenactor friends purchase reproduction printed fabric appropriate for the 18th century rather than your trying to make it yourself. Textile printing is a highly skilled craft and without a long apprenticeship, our results today are not likely to match what they could do in the past. What makes this even more difficult is that, contrary to what we might expect, the 18th century Native Americans were extremely fussy shoppers. Here I can speak about something I understand. Study the paintings of the period and you will see that the fabric used by the Indians (American) was of good quality, cleanly printed and often of more than one color. Trade records and correspondence between merchants are filled with very particular requests for just the right quality of not only cottons, but other textiles, beads, etc. that are to be traded with the Indians. Again and again, merchants will say, "Don't send such and such a pattern, because the Indians will not buy it." Indians would not accept any old "seconds" or remaindered goods. They were very particular, knew the quality of the merchandise and were willing to pay highly for the right stuff, but would treat with contempt anything shoddy or "not just right." There were, in fact, entire lines of printed fabrics and woven woolens made specifically for the Indian trade, and designed to suit their very particular tastes. Good luck! David Rickman drickman@state.de.us _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ End of h-costume-digest V4 #249 ******************************* _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME-DIGEST From ???@??? Mon Apr 12 09:28:03 1999 Received: from mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE (mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE [130.149.4.14]) by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA18864 for ; Wed, 31 Mar 1999 21:06:21 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from mail.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.15]) by mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10SQJg-0007IQ-00; Wed, 31 Mar 1999 21:06:20 +0200 Received: from coal.bg.tu-berlin.de by mail.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Wed, 31 Mar 1999 21:06:19 +0200 Received: from mail.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.15]) by mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10SQJc-0007IM-00; Wed, 31 Mar 1999 21:06:16 +0200 Received: from tubkom.prz.tu-berlin.de by mail.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Wed, 31 Mar 1999 21:06:15 +0200 Received: from mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE (mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE [130.149.4.14]) by tubkom.prz.tu-berlin.de (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA18647 for ; Wed, 31 Mar 1999 21:04:25 +0200 (MESZ) Received: from mail.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.15]) by mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10SQJQ-0007IH-00; Wed, 31 Mar 1999 21:06:04 +0200 Received: from server.indra.com by mail.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Wed, 31 Mar 1999 21:05:55 +0200 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.8.5/) with ESMTP id LAA10415; Wed, 31 Mar 1999 11:43:36 -0700 (MST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id LAA12381 for h-costume-digest-outgoing; Wed, 31 Mar 1999 11:41:07 -0700 (MST) Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 11:41:07 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199903311841.LAA12381@indra.com> From: owner-h-costume-digest@indra.com To: h-costume-digest@indra.com Subject: h-costume-digest V4 #250 Reply-To: h-costume-digest@indra.com Errors-To: owner-h-costume-digest@indra.com Precedence: bulk h-costume-digest Wednesday, 31 March 1999 Volume 04 : Number 250 In this issue: H-COST: amazon dry goods RE: H-COST: Buttons Re: H-COST: Ashelford book H-COST: Corset question from Usenet Re: H-COST: Ashelford book H-COST: Museum of London url, books Re: H-COST: amazon dry goods H-COST: Amazon Drygoods Re: H-COST: FO! Victorian Underpinnings, Sumptuously Sized Re: H-COST: AlterYears Re: H-COST: Amazon Drygoods H-COST: Another Perspective on AlterYears Re: H-COST: Another Perspective on AlterYears Re: H-COST: Who's got the button? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Sarah Toney" Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 09:06:36 -0500 Subject: H-COST: amazon dry goods - -Poster: "Sarah Toney" Question... what is amazon dry goods and where do I find it? Sarah _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Hope H. Dunlap" Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 09:17:05 -0500 Subject: RE: H-COST: Buttons - -Poster: "Hope H. Dunlap" Kasein was precursor of present day plastics. It was made from milk, and plastics are oil derived. But what you now do with plastic, they did with kasein in the first part of the twentieth Century through WW II. Hidden in the rear upper rooms of a building in Amsterdaym, Jewish Anne Frank wrote Diary of a Young Girl with a fountain pen made of Kasein. It was a major disaster for her in the book when it fell and broke. The stuff was useful, but not as durable as present day plastic. Hope H. Dunlap - -----Original Message----- From: owner-h-costume@indra.com [mailto:owner-h-costume@indra.com]On Behalf Of Emma Elizabeth Lehman Sent: Wednesday, March 31, 1999 8:52 AM To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: H-COST: Buttons - -Poster: Emma Elizabeth Lehman <00217146@bigred.unl.edu> I don't know if it's the same stuff, but casein is a protein in milk. On Wed, 31 Mar 1999, Ulrike Borghorst wrote: > Last article is about a button factory in Wuerttemberg. > Founded 1931 they used to make buttons of "Galalith" or "Kasein" > (whatever that may be in english). ____________________________________________________________ _____ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: aleed Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 10:19:05 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: H-COST: Ashelford book - -Poster: aleed For Elizabethan Costuming, I would definitely recommend it. It's one of my best research sources. The book is basically a collection of Elizabethan portraits, drawings & sketches showing Elizabethan dress--over 100 of them--shown chronologically from 1500 to 1600. Most of the pictures are in black & white, but the number contained in the book more than make up for the lack of color. She includes textual descriptions of the dress as well. I've heard both that it's out of print and available at specialty stores; Maybe someone else has a more definite idea of where you can buy it. Drea > -Poster: Donna Kenton > > I'm supposed to be building some clothing based on pictures from this book: > A Visual History of Costume : The Sixteenth Century by Jane Ashelford. > > I have scads of books, but not this one. I can photocopy the requisite > pages, or I can break down and buy the book. > > I'm interested in opinions. Is this one of those "gotta haves"? Is the > research shakey? What does this book have that some others don't? > > I'd appreciate any input. Thanks! > > Donna > ------------ > Donna Kenton * donna@dabbler.com > > > _________________________________________________________________ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME > _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Susan Carroll-Clark" Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 10:49:50 -0500 Subject: H-COST: Corset question from Usenet - -Poster: "Susan Carroll-Clark" Greetings! This came up in alt. folklore. urban, a group devoted to discussing/debunking various sorts of myths. Anyone know anything about it? Susan - -----Original Message----- From: Paraic O'Donnell Newsgroups: alt.folklore.urban Date: Wednesday, March 31, 1999 10:02 AM Subject: Reading corsets (more from today's _Grauniad_) >Also in today's _Grauniad_, the lushly-named >columnist and, occasional allusions suggest, novelist Talitha >Harwood-Stevenson avers that there "once" existed a type of corset >designed to "restrain the passions of young ladies while reading >novels". > >The image of the demure debutante in the drawing room, agitated to the >point of palpitation by the latest Radcliffe or Richardson, is >familiar, of course, as are tales of the ferocious exigency of corsets >from various periods. It's hardly surprising that corsets have long >been associated with the joylessness and strictures from which early >novels offered a limited escape [etc., etc. - Ed.]. [Insert potted >history of role of women of the leisured class in rise of novel here.] > >But what's AFU-worthy, of course, is the notion of garments being >*designed* to contain--and thereby discourage, natch--accesses of >excitement in impressionable girls. > >Has anyone read other vectors or credible historical records? If >there's anything to be found, my guess is that it will be amongst >stuff on the period between the late eighteenth and mid-nineteenth >centuries, which takes in the big gothic names and, of course, the >Bront:es, as well as being the period which saw the initial explosion, >if you will, of female readership. > >Paraic "wuthering tights" O'Donnell > > > _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: seamstrix@juno.com Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 09:23:15 -0600 Subject: Re: H-COST: Ashelford book - -Poster: seamstrix@juno.com I think that one of the book's major selling points is that with all the portraits arranged chronologically it is easier to see the evolution of fashion from one era to another. Instead of appearing as if by magic, you can see the beginnings of a look several years before the full blown fashion is in effect. I also like the fact that Ashelford tries very hard to show a variety of socio-economic levels of dress. Many costume books concentrate exclusively on dress of the nobility and royalty (prettier and easier to find), but not much use to someone interested in middle or lower class clothing. Karen On Wed, 31 Mar 1999 10:19:05 -0500 (EST) aleed writes: > >-Poster: aleed > > >For Elizabethan Costuming, I would definitely recommend it. It's one >of >my best research sources. > >The book is basically a collection of Elizabethan portraits, drawings >& >sketches showing Elizabethan dress--over 100 of them--shown >chronologically from 1500 to 1600. Most of the pictures are in black >& >white, but the number contained in the book more than make up for the >lack >of color. She includes textual descriptions of the dress as well. > >I've heard both that it's out of print and available at specialty >stores; >Maybe someone else has a more definite idea of where you can buy it. > >Drea > >> -Poster: Donna Kenton >> >> I'm supposed to be building some clothing based on pictures from >this book: >> A Visual History of Costume : The Sixteenth Century by Jane >Ashelford. >> >> I have scads of books, but not this one. I can photocopy the >requisite >> pages, or I can break down and buy the book. >> >> I'm interested in opinions. Is this one of those "gotta haves"? Is >the >> research shakey? What does this book have that some others don't? >> >> I'd appreciate any input. Thanks! >> >> Donna >> ------------ >> Donna Kenton * donna@dabbler.com >> >> >> _________________________________________________________________ >> To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com >> with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME >> > > _________________________________________________________________ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Heather Law Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 10:24:16 -0800 Subject: H-COST: Museum of London url, books - -Poster: Heather Law The MoL's url is http://www.museum-london.org.uk/ and I have a couple of Those Books. (BTW, there's a list in each one called "Other books in the series: Might be the subtitle, Medieval Finds from Excavations in London). The ones of interest are Shoes and Pattens, Grew and de Neergaard Dress Accessories, Egan and Pritchard Textiles and Clothing, Crowfoot, Pritchard, and Staniland. You can get info from The Stationery Office Publications Centre (mail, phone & fax orders only) PO Box 276, London SW8 5DT General enquiries 0171 873 0011 Telephone orders 0171 873 9090 Fax orders 0171 873 8200 _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Franchesca Havas" Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 10:23:17 -0600 Subject: Re: H-COST: amazon dry goods - -Poster: "Franchesca Havas" Amazon Drygoods 2218 E. 11th St. Davenport, IA 52803-3760 (319) 322-6800 (800) 798-7979 - orders ONLY and only from the US (319) 322-4003 - fax Sincerely, F. Havas - -----Original Message----- From: Sarah Toney To: h-costume@indra.com Date: Wednesday, March 31, 1999 8:07 AM Subject: H-COST: amazon dry goods : :-Poster: "Sarah Toney" : :Question... what is amazon dry goods and where do I find it? : :Sarah : : _________________________________________________________________ : To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com : with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME : _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Hope H. Dunlap" Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 12:05:41 -0500 Subject: H-COST: Amazon Drygoods - -Poster: "Hope H. Dunlap" The company is a major supplier of everything for the historical costumer, patterns, books, small range of basic fabrics like nainsook, coultil, brown, white, and checked linen, wool flannel, supplies and kits for stays, historic toys, historic accessories. Amazon Drygoods 2218 East 11th Street Davenport, Iowa 52803-3760 - -319-322-4138 Questions 1-319-322-6800 Business 1-800-798-7979 Orders 1-319-322-4003 Fax Pattern Catalog, Shoe Catalog, Book, fabric, accessories catalog, each has separate small price. Hope H. Dunlap _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Margo Anderson Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 08:52:20 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: H-COST: FO! Victorian Underpinnings, Sumptuously Sized - -Poster: Margo Anderson >> I'm not saying that spiral boning isn't a good >> product. I just question whether it's stiff >> enough to provide support for an entire Victorian >> corset for my body type. >What is your body type? It works fine for me, but then >my measurements are 44-35-48, and my body has the right >shape to start with, for the most part... > Well, my measurements are 53-42-56. To make things difficult, my rib cage measurement is the same as my waist, since I carry a lot of weight on my upper back. But most crucial in terms of support, I have nursing mother's breasts: One D-cup, one C-cup, and they sag fairly close to my waist. :-( What I want from a corset is lift, and lots of it! Margo _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Janice Dallas Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 12:22:47 -0500 Subject: Re: H-COST: AlterYears - -Poster: Janice Dallas Just wanted to say that Alteryears is a family-run firm, who recently lost their Husband/Father to a hard fought battle with cancer. That sort of thing can mess everything up as he was loved by all who met him. I can understand that there could be a lot of goof-ups at work, when workers have their mind on such things. I'm sure everything will straighten out, given time. Use Amazon, but don't give up on Alteryears entirely. Janice Dallas _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Margo Anderson Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 09:20:40 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: H-COST: Amazon Drygoods - -Poster: Margo Anderson I've heard similar complaints to the ones we've been hearing about Alter Years: that their service is slow and disorganized. Is this still true? Margo _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: " Firefly" Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 10:21:51 -0800 Subject: H-COST: Another Perspective on AlterYears - -Poster: " Firefly" I have been nothing but pleased with Alteryears. For instance, I ordered a couple of patterns and bones from Alteryears about six weeks ago. Unfortunately, one of the patterns was out of stock but their staff contacted me within twenty-four hours (leaving three voicemail messages at my work and home phone) and on calling, suggested a satisfactory replacement pattern. I ordered on Friday, got my order by Wednesday (bear in mind: I only requested medium-fast delivery and live on the other side of the US). I dunno--maybe mileage varies? - --- Visit my homepage: http://pages.hotbot.com/travel/fire.fly HotBot - Search smarter. http://www.hotbot.com _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Merouda the True of Bornover Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 10:40:23 -0800 Subject: Re: H-COST: Another Perspective on AlterYears - -Poster: Merouda the True of Bornover Actually what this post does is make my blood boil. They have been futzing around with my order for 6 months!!!!! I will never use Alter Years again and will never recommend them either. They never call me to tell me what's up, they have emailed me once but only in reply to a very irate letter. All of my pleadings in calm tone have been ignored. Maybe mileage varies, but a vendor who does not give equal service and is consistently inconsistent is not to be trusted, IMNSHO. I have seen far too many complaints on this list in one week to assume that they just made a mistake on my order. Cynthia > I have been nothing but pleased with Alteryears. For instance, I ordered a couple of patterns and bones from Alteryears about six weeks ago. Unfortunately, one of the patterns was out of stock but their staff contacted me within twenty-four hours (leaving three voicemail messages at my work and home phone) and on calling, suggested a satisfactory replacement pattern. I ordered on Friday, got my order by Wednesday (bear in mind: I only requested medium-fast delivery and live on the other side of the US). > > I dunno--maybe mileage varies? > > --- > Visit my homepage: > http://pages.hotbot.com/travel/fire.fly > > HotBot - Search smarter. > http://www.hotbot.com > _________________________________________________________________ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME - -- Cynthia Long Merouda the True of Bornover Barony of Madrone Kingdom of An Tir _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Lavolta Press Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 10:30:21 -0800 Subject: Re: H-COST: Who's got the button? - -Poster: Lavolta Press > if we sample a representative number of > sites, compare the number of shell buttons found there to the number of > buttons found that are made of the many other materials used between 1800 and > 1960 (including bone, metal, ceramic, bakelite and wood), then you should have > enough statistical evidence to convince any reasonable person of your point. > Oh, and by the way, did I say that you are clearly in the right on this > question? The very statement that shell was the most common material for > buttons before 1960 proves only one thing to me, that your professor was born > after 1960. But again, you have every right to challenge him to offer his > evidence first - since he made his statement first. But be prepared for him to > refuse unreasonably and then deck him with the archaeological record. Best of > luck. > Since a large part of the period in question (1800-1960) is fairly recent, it should also be possible to find descriptions of buttons for sale in manufacturers' records, mail-order catalogs of sewing supplies and garments, fashion magazines, and other printed materials. Generally items are not mass manufactured unless the manufacturer believes there is a large market. 19th- and early 20th-century fashion magazines often included needlework instructions; there were also magazines devoted entirely to needlework. Cloth-covered, embroidered, and crochet or needle-lace covered buttons to match a specific garment were often made at home, and I have certainly seen instructions for these. Then there are surviving garments in museums, etc.that still have the original buttons. As a very general rule I would say that during the 19th and early 20th centuries white shell/ mother-of-pearl buttons were often used on underwear, white blouses, men's shirts, and summer "wash" dresses made of white cotton or linen, or ecru "natural" linen. Note that all these garments tended to be washed often, and to be white or very light in color. Many of them were not visible in public, or were for informal wear. However, many garments didn't fall into these categories and tended to have buttons of other types. Hope this helps, Fran Grimble - ---------------------------------------------- Visit our web sites! Books on historic costume and vintage clothes http://www.best.com/~lavolta/index.htm Vintage and historic dance http://www.best.com/~lavolta/dance/index.htm _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ End of h-costume-digest V4 #250 ******************************* _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME-DIGEST From ???@??? Mon Apr 12 09:28:03 1999 Received: from mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE (mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE [130.149.4.14]) by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA20290 for ; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 02:13:03 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from mail.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.15]) by mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10SV6U-0003lw-01; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 02:13:02 +0200 Received: from coal.bg.tu-berlin.de by mail.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Thu, 1 Apr 1999 02:13:01 +0200 Received: from mail.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.15]) by mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10SV6Q-0003lu-00; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 02:12:58 +0200 Received: from tubkom.prz.tu-berlin.de by mail.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Thu, 1 Apr 1999 02:12:55 +0200 Received: from mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE (mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE [130.149.4.14]) by tubkom.prz.tu-berlin.de (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id CAA20418 for ; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 02:11:13 +0200 (MESZ) Received: from mail.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.15]) by mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10SV6K-0003ls-00; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 02:12:52 +0200 Received: from server.indra.com by mail.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Thu, 1 Apr 1999 02:12:50 +0200 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.8.5/) with ESMTP id RAA18940; Wed, 31 Mar 1999 17:13:51 -0700 (MST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id RAA16171 for h-costume-digest-outgoing; Wed, 31 Mar 1999 17:11:05 -0700 (MST) Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 17:11:05 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199904010011.RAA16171@indra.com> From: owner-h-costume-digest@indra.com To: h-costume-digest@indra.com Subject: h-costume-digest V4 #251 Reply-To: h-costume-digest@indra.com Errors-To: owner-h-costume-digest@indra.com Precedence: bulk h-costume-digest Wednesday, 31 March 1999 Volume 04 : Number 251 In this issue: H-COST: Ghita? Re: H-COST: Another Perspective on AlterYears Re: H-COST: Amazon Drygoods Re: H-COST: Amazon Drygoods Re: H-COST: Another Perspective on AlterYears Re: H-COST: Another Perspective on AlterYears Re: H-COST: Another Perspective on AlterYears Re: H-COST: Amazon Drygoods Re: H-COST: Buttons RE: H-COST: Amazon Drygoods H-COST: 19th century men's undershirts H-COST: Buttons Re: H-COST: Amazon Drygoods ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Merouda the True of Bornover Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 11:28:44 -0800 Subject: H-COST: Ghita? - -Poster: Merouda the True of Bornover In _Fashion in the Age of the Black Prince_ M.S. Newton mentions "ghita's" as a garment worn by women. I can't find a description of a ghita, or haven't yet. It seems to be something like the supertunica, worn as the outer gown over an undertunic. Any ideas? Cynthia - -- Cynthia Long Merouda the True of Bornover Barony of Madrone Kingdom of An Tir _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Lisa R." Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 14:45:02 -0500 Subject: Re: H-COST: Another Perspective on AlterYears - -Poster: "Lisa R." Cynthia & List---- I had a similar experience w/Alteryears. I ordered a pattern & right from the beginning they said it was out of stock & would have to be ordered, but after waiting 6 or so months I decided to call them & cancel. Well, when I called, they told me they had had the pattern from the beginning- it had been in stock the whole time! I don't know what they were waiting for to ship me my order or why this happened, but my point is sometimes you have to really stay on top of them & keep calling, calling,calling. I wasn't very happy at the time & swore I'd never use them again, but then other times I have ordered from them & gotten the stuff right on time & I live on the opposite coast. Apparently inconsistency is the main problem w/Alteryears but I believe they really do try to get merchandise out quickly as possible & just lose track of orders sometimes, I guess. Their selection & prices on certain patterns are better than other historic pattern retailers. What is the alternative to Alteryears? - --Lisa Merouda the True of Bornover wrote: > -Poster: Merouda the True of Bornover > > Actually what this post does is make my blood boil. They have been futzing around with my order for 6 months!!!!! I will never use Alter Years again and will never recommend them either. They never call me to tell me what's up, they have emailed me once but only in reply to a very irate letter. All of my pleadings in calm tone have been ignored. Maybe mileage varies, but a vendor who does not give equal service and is consistently inconsistent is not to be trusted, IMNSHO. I have seen far too many > complaints on this list in one week to assume that they just made a mistake on my order. Cynthia > > > I have been nothing but pleased with Alteryears. For instance, I ordered a couple of patterns and bones from Alteryears about six weeks ago. Unfortunately, one of the patterns was out of stock but their staff contacted me within twenty-four hours (leaving three voicemail messages at my work and home phone) and on calling, suggested a satisfactory replacement pattern. I ordered on Friday, got my order by Wednesday (bear in mind: I only requested medium-fast delivery and live on the other side of the US). > > > > I dunno--maybe mileage varies? > > > > --- > > Visit my homepage: > > http://pages.hotbot.com/travel/fire.fly > > > > HotBot - Search smarter. > > http://www.hotbot.com > > _________________________________________________________________ > > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME > > -- > Cynthia Long > Merouda the True of Bornover > Barony of Madrone > Kingdom of An Tir > > _________________________________________________________________ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: tobeypam@washpost.com Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 14:50:23 -0500 Subject: Re: H-COST: Amazon Drygoods - -Poster: tobeypam@washpost.com You can also find their contact and catalog info at: http://www.amazondrygoods.com/ (Back to lurking) Pam Tobey in sunny, ready-to-bloom-cherry-blossoms Washington, D.C. tobeypam at washpost dot com _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Lavolta Press Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 11:46:58 -0800 Subject: Re: H-COST: Amazon Drygoods - -Poster: Lavolta Press Margo Anderson wrote: > -Poster: Margo Anderson > > I've heard similar complaints to the ones we've been hearing about Alter > Years: that their service is slow and disorganized. Is this still true? > > Margo > > __ I gave up on Amazon Drygoods years ago so can't say. I can say, however, that AlterYears keeps their catalogs more up-to-date. Fran Grimble - ---------------------------------------------- Visit our web sites! Books on historic costume and vintage clothes http://www.best.com/~lavolta/index.htm Vintage and historic dance http://www.best.com/~lavolta/dance/index.htm _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Sarah Toney" Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 14:53:40 -0500 Subject: Re: H-COST: Another Perspective on AlterYears - -Poster: "Sarah Toney" I just went to Alter Years web site and noted that for a catalog to be sent priority mail costs $8.00. Now, I do a LOT of shipping in my job and for a priority package up to 2 lbs. costs a flat rate of $3.20. Is this common with them or is it just with their catalogs as a handling fee? Sarah > >-Poster: "Lisa R." > >Cynthia & List---- >I had a similar experience w/Alteryears. I ordered a pattern & right from the beginning they said it was out of stock & would have to be ordered, but after waiting 6 or so months I decided to call them & cancel. Well, when I called, they told me they had had the pattern from the beginning- it had been in stock the whole time! I don't know what they were waiting for to ship me my order or why this happened, but my point is sometimes you have to really stay on top of them & keep calling, calling,calling. I wasn't >very happy at the time & swore I'd never use them again, but then other times I have ordered from them & gotten the stuff right on time & I live on the opposite coast. Apparently inconsistency is the main problem w/Alteryears but I believe they really do try to get merchandise out quickly as possible & just lose track of orders sometimes, I guess. Their selection & prices on certain patterns are better than other historic pattern retailers. >What is the alternative to Alteryears? >--Lisa > >Merouda the True of Bornover wrote: > >> -Poster: Merouda the True of Bornover >> >> Actually what this post does is make my blood boil. They have been futzing around with my order for 6 months!!!!! I will never use Alter Years again and will never recommend them either. They never call me to tell me what's up, they have emailed me once but only in reply to a very irate letter. All of my pleadings in calm tone have been ignored. Maybe mileage varies, but a vendor who does not give equal service and is consistently inconsistent is not to be trusted, IMNSHO. I have seen far too many >> complaints on this list in one week to assume that they just made a mistake on my order. Cynthia >> >> > I have been nothing but pleased with Alteryears. For instance, I ordered a couple of patterns and bones from Alteryears about six weeks ago. Unfortunately, one of the patterns was out of stock but their staff contacted me within twenty-four hours (leaving three voicemail messages at my work and home phone) and on calling, suggested a satisfactory replacement pattern. I ordered on Friday, got my order by Wednesday (bear in mind: I only requested medium-fast delivery and live on the other side of the US). >> > >> > I dunno--maybe mileage varies? >> > >> > --- >> > Visit my homepage: >> > http://pages.hotbot.com/travel/fire.fly >> > >> > HotBot - Search smarter. >> > http://www.hotbot.com >> > _________________________________________________________________ >> > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com >> > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME >> >> -- >> Cynthia Long >> Merouda the True of Bornover >> Barony of Madrone >> Kingdom of An Tir >> >> _________________________________________________________________ >> To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com >> with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME > > _________________________________________________________________ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME > _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Lavolta Press Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 12:03:08 -0800 Subject: Re: H-COST: Another Perspective on AlterYears - -Poster: Lavolta Press Sarah Toney wrote: > -Poster: "Sarah Toney" > > I just went to Alter Years web site and noted that for a catalog to be sent > priority mail costs $8.00. Now, I do a LOT of shipping in my job and for a > priority package up to 2 lbs. costs a flat rate of $3.20. Is this common > with them or is it just with their catalogs as a handling fee? > > Sarah > If I remember right the $8 is for a large bound printed catalog _and_ shipping prioity mail, together. They will also supply the catalog and ship it book rate for, if I remember, about $5. I've found that for a book priority mail is not miraculously better than book rate anyway. Fran - ---------------------------------------------- Visit our web sites! Books on historic costume and vintage clothes http://www.best.com/~lavolta/index.htm Vintage and historic dance http://www.best.com/~lavolta/dance/index.htm _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Lavolta Press Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 12:25:05 -0800 Subject: Re: H-COST: Another Perspective on AlterYears - -Poster: Lavolta Press > > What is the alternative to Alteryears? OK, I admit selling books to AlterYears. On the other hand I've ordered from them as a customer and never been unhappy. Yet again, I'm a firm believer in mail ordering merchandise for projects well ahead. If the seller has a good reputation for honesty (that is, they are not reputed to take customers' money but never send the merchandise at all) I don't agonize over not receiving the merchandise immediately. That said: In my opinion the two biggest sellers of many patterns for many periods are Amazon Drygoods and AlterYears. However, I think AlterYears does have a larger selection and keeps their catalogs more up-to-date. Last time I compared, Amazon Dryoogds had higher price markups on the patterns I wanted. What you get out of buying from one larger retailer (such as Amazon Drygoods or AlterYears) is one-stop comparison of information about patterns from many companies, and one-stop ordering of same. It is also cheaper to get one printed catalog than a number from different companies. On the other hand, some pattern companies now have on-line catalogs which you can of course browse for free. A larger retailer's printed catalog may less up-to-date than those of the individual pattern companies. On the other hand it is less likely to contain "forthcoming" patterns whose publication has been delayed. Anyway, one option is to search for individual pattern companies' on-line catalogs. No matter who you are ordering from I'd recommend price comparison of the larger retailer vs. the company that published the pattern. The larger retailer will probably charge the same price or higher, but not lower than the pattern company. Also, I'd recommend ensuring that the pattern has actually been printed. Printing delays can cause much longer waits than ordering delays. Fran Grimble - ---------------------------------------------- Visit our web sites! Books on historic costume and vintage clothes http://www.best.com/~lavolta/index.htm Vintage and historic dance http://www.best.com/~lavolta/dance/index.htm _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: DRGurley@aol.com Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 15:34:26 EST Subject: Re: H-COST: Amazon Drygoods - -Poster: DRGurley@aol.com Does ADG also offer supplies for constructing ones own garments? Specifically corset boning, grommets, etc? Does their pattern catalog include Renaissance period patterns? Dani _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Dietmar Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 13:36:34 +0000 Subject: Re: H-COST: Buttons - -Poster: Dietmar Greetings all, Ulrike wrote: > Last article is about a button factory in Wuerttemberg. Founded 1931 > they used to make buttons of "Galalith" or "Kasein" (whatever that may > be in english). Casein is a (phospho)protein found in milk, which is used in making plastics. "Galalith" is a trademark for a plastic made from Casein to resemble horn. More than you wanted to know, I'm sure. Regards, Dietmar "Victory or Defeat rests in God's hands; over Honor, we ourselves are Lord and Master." _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Hope H. Dunlap" Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 16:40:38 -0500 Subject: RE: H-COST: Amazon Drygoods - -Poster: "Hope H. Dunlap" Yes to all questions. Hope H. Dunlap - -----Original Message----- From: owner-h-costume@indra.com [mailto:owner-h-costume@indra.com]On Behalf Of DRGurley@aol.com Sent: Wednesday, March 31, 1999 3:34 PM To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: H-COST: Amazon Drygoods - -Poster: DRGurley@aol.com Does ADG also offer supplies for constructing ones own garments? Specifically corset boning, grommets, etc? Does their pattern catalog include Renaissance period patterns? Dani ____________________________________________________________ _____ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Margo Anderson Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 13:43:42 -0800 (PST) Subject: H-COST: 19th century men's undershirts - -Poster: Margo Anderson I'm researching men's working wear of the 1850's and I have questions about undershirts. Since I've found a number of references to wool shirts, I assume something must have been worn under them for cleanliness and comfort. Was this simply an ordinary shirt in linen or cotton, or was there a specific undershirt style? I have found mention of undershirts knitted of merino wool, which I understand is soft enough to wear next to the skin. Were these the norm, or was there something else? Margo (Who STILL hasn't found her copy of the History of Underclothes) _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: starsinger@webtv.net (theresa sorrell) Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 14:54:46 -0700 (MST) Subject: H-COST: Buttons - -Poster: starsinger@webtv.net (theresa sorrell) I believe casesin/kasesin (sp?) is an early form of plastic. There is a company in Australia that make casesin knitting needles. They state they are made of milk products. I have used a pair. They act like plastic. They bend up to a point and if done slowly will retain a slight curve. But bend them fast and they become brittle and snap. There is also a slight smell to them, not unpleasant, but not something you can put your finger on. Starsinger _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "TC Carstensen" Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 19:09:52 -0500 Subject: Re: H-COST: Amazon Drygoods - -Poster: "TC Carstensen" >-Poster: Margo Anderson > >I've heard similar complaints to the ones we've been hearing about Alter >Years: that their service is slow and disorganized. Is this still true? I ordered corset making supplies from both companies last summer. In both cases, the customer service was good and the orders were shipped out quickly. TC Carstensen _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ End of h-costume-digest V4 #251 ******************************* _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME-DIGEST From ???@??? Mon Apr 12 09:28:04 1999 Received: from mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE (mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE [130.149.4.14]) by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA21643 for ; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 08:27:52 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from mail.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.15]) by mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10SaxD-0007ZX-00; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 08:27:51 +0200 Received: from coal.bg.tu-berlin.de by mail.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Thu, 1 Apr 1999 08:27:50 +0200 Received: from mail.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.15]) by mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10Sax9-0007ZR-00; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 08:27:47 +0200 Received: from tubkom.prz.tu-berlin.de by mail.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Thu, 1 Apr 1999 08:27:44 +0200 Received: from mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE (mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE [130.149.4.14]) by tubkom.prz.tu-berlin.de (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA22261 for ; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 08:26:02 +0200 (MESZ) Received: from mail.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.15]) by mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10Sax3-0007ZK-01; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 08:27:41 +0200 Received: from server.indra.com by mail.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Thu, 1 Apr 1999 08:27:33 +0200 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.8.5/) with ESMTP id XAA12627; Wed, 31 Mar 1999 23:29:10 -0700 (MST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id XAA26007 for h-costume-digest-outgoing; Wed, 31 Mar 1999 23:25:52 -0700 (MST) Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 23:25:52 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199904010625.XAA26007@indra.com> From: owner-h-costume-digest@indra.com To: h-costume-digest@indra.com Subject: h-costume-digest V4 #252 Reply-To: h-costume-digest@indra.com Errors-To: owner-h-costume-digest@indra.com Precedence: bulk h-costume-digest Wednesday, 31 March 1999 Volume 04 : Number 252 In this issue: Re: H-COST: Amazon Drygoods Re: H-COST: amazon dry goods H-COST: Buttons, anecdotal family history H-COST: Re: H-COST H-COST: Ashelford book Re: H-COST: Re: H-COST RE: H-COST: Re: H-COST Re: H-COST: Febreze H-COST: "Sheepish" coat Re: H-COST:what fur? H-COST: Textiles seminars -OT Re: H-COST: "Sheepish" coat Re: H-COST: Ashelford book Re: H-COST: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Marionetta@aol.com Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 19:27:13 EST Subject: Re: H-COST: Amazon Drygoods - -Poster: Marionetta@aol.com Hi all, I placed an order with Amazon recently for a pattern Alteryears didn't stock. I'd been using Alteryears, with varying degrees of success, rather than amazon because some of their prices are better and I'd had REALLY slow service from amazon the last time I used them. I was very pleasantly surprised, my order arrived within 3 days. They're not as slow as they used to be...however the catalog is still not very up to date. Cheers, Loren Dearborn marionetta@aol.com _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Craig B. Brown" Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 17:46:38 -0800 Subject: Re: H-COST: amazon dry goods - -Poster: "Craig B. Brown" Dear Sarah: Amazon Drygoods is an excellent purveyor of many vintage patterns and items (along with other stuff). Their number: 1-800-798-7979. I've used them many times to order vintage patterns - and because I sew for a theatrical company, I'm always in a hurry. They keep most items in stock and are willing to work with you. Hope this helps! Cindy - ----- Original Message ----- From: Sarah Toney To: Sent: Wednesday, March 31, 1999 6:06 AM Subject: H-COST: amazon dry goods > > -Poster: "Sarah Toney" > > Question... what is amazon dry goods and where do I find it? > > Sarah > > _________________________________________________________________ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME > _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Lynn Carpenter Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 20:56:03 -0500 Subject: H-COST: Buttons, anecdotal family history - -Poster: Lynn Carpenter I have a 70-inch long string of older buttons from the former owners of the house my parents bought in 1981. The great majority are shell. The buttons that are not shell are wood, metal, plastic, and glass. My mother says when her father was a boy, he and his brother earned money by harvesting river clams for the button factory. One summer they turned in 4000 pounds of clams! They didn't have a dredge: all two tons were harvested by feeling in the mud with their feet, and putting the clams in a rowboat. Somewhere locally (one of the little museums) I've seen the river clamshells with the round holes cut out for buttons. No wonder the river clam is about extinct in Michigan's Grand River. Lynn _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "christianna del Oro" Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 20:11:22 PST Subject: H-COST: Re: H-COST - -Poster: "christianna del Oro" Dear ladies I bought a black fur coat(old and used) and i would to know if any body could tell me what the name of the fur is, how much it's worth and so on. It's black very short and wavy. the coat is made of medium size pieces. the largest piece is 18.5 x 8.5 inches wide in the middle of the back of the coat. i once saw the same thing in a scottish kilt shop. her piece had a crest stamped on the back (in silver ink) it was either english or scottish origin. the lady there was using it as a purse?? for the kilt. i also remeber it some kind of sheep. but I didn't have the coat then so i didn't write it down or really try to remember it either. the texture and looks like cropped black poodle i'm only saying that to help identify it. It's actually much prettier than that. please help thank you Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Marsha McLean Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 23:48:31 -0500 (EST) Subject: H-COST: Ashelford book - -Poster: Marsha McLean I must say that it IS worth it's weight in rubies for the pictures, especially since she does group them so well. I disagree pretty strenuously with some of her conclusions (can't think of an example right off the bat, my library is upstairs), based on actual construction and wearing of the garments. Arnold has a definite advantage in that she studied ACTUAL garments, not just pictures. I think Ashelford's failings come from just that - she only goes by visual clues, she doesn't study, make or wear the garments. My 16th Century faves are: Libretto Geometria y Traca - Juan de Alcega, 1583(?) - there's also one from 1589. Alcega can be founf in facsimile through interlibrary loan or at a large library. Queen Elizabeth's Wardrobe Unlock'd by Janet Arnold and Patterns of Fashion (16th c.) o'course. Ashelford comes next. I also start beginners with Schultz & Sayoy book (always forget it's name!), used in conjunction with patterns of fashion. The Schultz & Savoy is aimed at the Renn Faire crowd and more concerned with outward appearance than construction, but with Arnold it is a gentle introduction, and they explain the basics well. Of course, I learnt the hard way years ago - by doing it wrong and fixing it. Cheers! Marsha Marsha McLean "Be yourself - it's who you do best" _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Catherine de Calais" Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 20:48:22 PST Subject: Re: H-COST: Re: H-COST - -Poster: "Catherine de Calais" I believe, from your description that it is caricle (sp?) which is indeed, lamb or sheepshin. Catherine de Calais Barony of Bjornsborg >From: "christianna del Oro" >Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com >To: h-costume@indra.com >Subject: H-COST: Re: H-COST >Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 20:11:22 PST >MIME-Version: 1.0 >From owner-h-costume@indra.com Wed Mar 31 20:34:57 1999 >Received: from [204.144.142.2] by hotmail.com (1.5) with SMTP id MHotMailB8CC42700057D1B98322CC908E0207770; Wed Mar 31 20:34:57 1999 >Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1])by server.indra.com (8.8.5/) with ESMTP id VAA29863;Wed, 31 Mar 1999 21:37:32 -0700 (MST) >Received: (from majordom@localhost)by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id VAA15828for h-costume-outgoing; Wed, 31 Mar 1999 21:34:09 -0700 (MST) >Received: from hotmail.com (wya-oe4.hotmail.com [207.82.253.69])by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with SMTP id VAA15816for ; Wed, 31 Mar 1999 21:34:04 -0700 (MST) >Received: (qmail 6156 invoked by uid 0); 1 Apr 1999 04:11:27 -0000 >Message-ID: <19990401041127.6155.qmail@hotmail.com> >Received: from 198.248.210.246 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP;Wed, 31 Mar 1999 20:11:22 PST >X-Originating-IP: [198.248.210.246] >Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com >Precedence: bulk > > >-Poster: "christianna del Oro" > > > > > Dear ladies > > I bought a black fur coat(old and used) and i would to know if any >body could tell me what the name of the fur is, how much it's worth and >so on. > > It's black very short and wavy. the coat is made of medium size >pieces. the largest piece is 18.5 x 8.5 inches wide in the middle of >the back of the coat. > i once saw the same thing in a scottish kilt shop. her piece had a >crest stamped on the back (in silver ink) it was either english or >scottish origin. the lady there was using it as a purse?? for the kilt. >i also remeber it some kind of sheep. but I didn't have the coat then >so i didn't write it down or really try to remember it either. the >texture and looks like cropped black poodle i'm only saying that to help >identify it. It's actually much prettier than that. > >please help > thank you >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > _________________________________________________________________ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Cathy Harding" Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 20:54:48 -0800 Subject: RE: H-COST: Re: H-COST - -Poster: "Cathy Harding" I wonder if it is mouton (questionable spelling), perhap some kind of sheared sheepskin? I once had a parka that was lined in it. It was really warm, epecially for those very cold nights in Barrow, AK. Maeve > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-h-costume@indra.com [mailto:owner-h-costume@indra.com]On > Behalf Of christianna del Oro > Sent: Wednesday, March 31, 1999 8:11 PM > To: h-costume@indra.com > Subject: H-COST: Re: H-COST > > > > -Poster: "christianna del Oro" > > > > > Dear ladies > > I bought a black fur coat(old and used) and i would to know if any > body could tell me what the name of the fur is, how much it's worth and > so on. > > It's black very short and wavy. the coat is made of medium size > pieces. the largest piece is 18.5 x 8.5 inches wide in the middle of > the back of the coat. > i once saw the same thing in a scottish kilt shop. her piece had a > crest stamped on the back (in silver ink) it was either english or > scottish origin. the lady there was using it as a purse?? for the kilt. > i also remeber it some kind of sheep. but I didn't have the coat then > so i didn't write it down or really try to remember it either. the > texture and looks like cropped black poodle i'm only saying that to help > identify it. It's actually much prettier than that. > > please help > thank you > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > _________________________________________________________________ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME > _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Julie Adams Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 20:56:46 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: H-COST: Febreze - -Poster: Julie Adams Joanne Howl, DVM forwarded me this as she just received it in the mail: >Date: March 26, 1999 >To: Whom It May Concern >Subject: Febreze=F4 Fabric Refresher > >Recently there have been comments and discussions posted on the Internet suggesting that the use of Febreze=F4 Fabric Refresher in households is dangerous to animals. We have issued the following statement in order to help disseminate accurate information: > >"Veterinary toxicologists at the ASPCA National Animal Poison Control Center are conducting an on-going investigation into claims that use of =46ebreze=F4 in the home caused the death of several pets. All information reviewed to date suggests that there is no evidence that Febreze=F4 represents any risk to pets when used according to label instructions. Presently, the center considers the product safe to use in households with pets. As with any cleaning >product, the center recommends that birds be removed from the room until the product application has dried and the area has been ventilated. Please call 1-800-345-4735 if you have any questions or have a pet that you suspect is experiencing problems or visit us at http://www.napcc.aspca.org." > >Please photocopy this letter or download our statement from our web site and pass the correct information on to other friends of animals. > >Sincerely, > >Steven R. Hansen, DVM, MS >Diplomate American Board of Veterinary Toxicology >Senior Vice President _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Luiseach@aol.com Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 00:10:33 EST Subject: H-COST: "Sheepish" coat - -Poster: Luiseach@aol.com I think it's "karakul" which my dictionary defines as loosely curled black fur from the fleece of a newborn lamb, it can also be a central Asian breed of sheep. Sometimes it's spelled "caracul." Lucinda _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Janice Dallas Date: Thu, 01 Apr 1999 00:15:25 -0500 Subject: Re: H-COST:what fur? - -Poster: Janice Dallas My mother would have called that black fur coat "Persian Lamb". It wears well. Janice Dallas _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Beth" Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 00:23:11 -0500 Subject: H-COST: Textiles seminars -OT - -Poster: "Beth" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BE7BD5.D370FB40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Has anyone attended any classes at the Center for Antique Textile = Studies in Malden, Massachusetts? I just sent for their calendar but they are rather expensive for my = budget so I thought I would try to get a review or two. Beth - ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BE7BD5.D370FB40 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Has anyone attended any classes at = the Center=20 for Antique Textile Studies in Malden, Massachusetts?
I just sent for their calendar but = they are=20 rather expensive for my budget so I thought I would try to get a review = or=20 two.
 
Beth
- ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BE7BD5.D370FB40-- _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: lilinah@grin.net Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 21:34:58 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: H-COST: "Sheepish" coat - -Poster: lilinah@grin.net Lucinda wrote: > >I think it's "karakul" which my dictionary defines as loosely curled black fur >from the fleece of a newborn lamb, it can also be a central Asian breed of >sheep. Sometimes it's spelled "caracul." I concur. I had a 1940's coat made of light reddish brown karakul, sort of French poodle look, although i believe grey and black are more common (maybe mine was processed?). I think some of those classic Russian men's hats are made of this as well. Lilinah _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Donna Kenton Date: Thu, 01 Apr 1999 00:54:00 -0500 Subject: Re: H-COST: Ashelford book - -Poster: Donna Kenton Thanks to everyone for the input. Looks like I'm gonna have to find that book. I have both Alcega and QE Wardrobe Unlocked -- and Schultz and Savoy. :) Now if I can only find Ashelford... Thanks! Donna At 11:48 PM 3/31/99 -0500, you wrote: > >-Poster: Marsha McLean > >I must say that it IS worth it's weight in rubies for the pictures, >especially since she does group them so well. I disagree pretty strenuously >with some of her conclusions (can't think of an example right off the bat, >my library is upstairs), based on actual construction and wearing of the >garments. Arnold has a definite advantage in that she studied ACTUAL >garments, not just pictures. I think Ashelford's failings come from just >that - she only goes by visual clues, she doesn't study, make or wear the >garments. My 16th Century faves are: Libretto Geometria y Traca - Juan de >Alcega, 1583(?) - there's also one from 1589. Alcega can be founf in >facsimile through interlibrary loan or at a large library. Queen >Elizabeth's Wardrobe Unlock'd by Janet Arnold and Patterns of Fashion (16th >c.) o'course. Ashelford comes next. I also start beginners with Schultz & >Sayoy book (always forget it's name!), used in conjunction with patterns of >fashion. The Schultz & Savoy is aimed at the Renn Faire crowd and more >concerned with outward appearance than construction, but with Arnold it is a >gentle introduction, and they explain the basics well. > >Of course, I learnt the hard way years ago - by doing it wrong and fixing it. > >Cheers! Marsha >Marsha McLean > >"Be yourself - it's who you do best" > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME > > _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Catherine de Calais" Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 22:25:17 PST Subject: Re: H-COST: - -Poster: "Catherine de Calais" THAT'S IT! thats the correct spelling! But yes, I think this is what she was referrig to. I have a stole that a client gave me and I have used it in various forms in costumes and accessories. Thanks for the correct spelling of it! Catherine de Calais Barony of Bjornsborg Kingdom of Ansteorra Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ End of h-costume-digest V4 #252 ******************************* _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME-DIGEST From ???@??? Mon Apr 12 09:28:06 1999 Received: from mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE (mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE [130.149.4.14]) by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA29385 for ; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 19:56:53 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from mail.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.15]) by mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10Sli0-0007Da-00; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 19:56:52 +0200 Received: from coal.bg.tu-berlin.de by mail.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Thu, 1 Apr 1999 19:56:51 +0200 Received: from tubkom.prz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.62.9] ident=root) by mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10Slhw-0007DU-00; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 19:56:48 +0200 Received: from mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE (mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE [130.149.4.14]) by tubkom.prz.tu-berlin.de (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA27990 for ; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 19:55:05 +0200 (MESZ) Received: from mail.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.15]) by mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10Slhs-0007DO-00; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 19:56:44 +0200 Received: from server.indra.com by mail.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Thu, 1 Apr 1999 19:56:42 +0200 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.8.5/) with ESMTP id KAA16447; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 10:59:36 -0700 (MST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id KAA08752 for h-costume-digest-outgoing; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 10:54:36 -0700 (MST) Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 10:54:36 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199904011754.KAA08752@indra.com> From: owner-h-costume-digest@indra.com To: h-costume-digest@indra.com Subject: h-costume-digest V4 #253 Reply-To: h-costume-digest@indra.com Errors-To: owner-h-costume-digest@indra.com Precedence: bulk h-costume-digest Thursday, 1 April 1999 Volume 04 : Number 253 In this issue: Re: H-COST: Amazon Drygoods Re: H-COST: Ashelford book H-COST: LONG - historical publisher Rant Re: H-COST: Re: H-COST Re: H-COST: LONG - historical publisher Rant H-COST: Greenburg & Hammer WAS Re: Amazon Drygoods H-COST: Up&coming books Re: H-COST: LONG - historical publisher Rant Re: H-COST: Amazon Drygoods H-COST: Greenburg & Hammer Re: H-COST: Greenburg & Hammer Re: H-COST: Febreze Re: H-COST: Febreze Re: H-COST: Up&coming books ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Diana H Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 22:42:40 -0800 Subject: Re: H-COST: Amazon Drygoods - -Poster: Diana H DRGurley@aol.com wrote: > -Poster: DRGurley@aol.com > > Does ADG also offer supplies for constructing ones own garments? > Specifically > corset boning, grommets, etc? Does their pattern catalog include > Renaissance > period patterns? Dear List, Not to take anything away from Amazon Drygoods, but I recently ordered some corset supplies (a busk, boning, etc) from Greenberg & Hammer and they had what appeared to be wholesale prices on lots of cool things. The busk I ordered was at least $10 cheaper than any other price I could find!! They are not on the Web and their catalog costs $1 (last I checked) but if you are willing to send away for the catalog, I think it is well worth your time! They also give bulk discounts if you have a need to order large quantities of things. And last time I ordered from them, they were very polite, helpful and mailed my things in a very timely manner. Just wanted to share another resource! Diana :~> - -- * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * "There are too many mediocre things in life to deal with.....Love shouldn't be one of them." - --Ione Skye in "Dream for an Insomniac" _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Connie Carroll" Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 03:57:39 +0000 Subject: Re: H-COST: Ashelford book - -Poster: "Connie Carroll" What is the Alcega book? Kassandra NickKraken > > -Poster: Donna Kenton > > Thanks to everyone for the input. Looks like I'm gonna have to find > that book. I have both Alcega and QE Wardrobe Unlocked -- and > Schultz and Savoy. :) JUST CALL ME MISTRESS BUNNY _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: cnevin@caci.co.uk Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 11:47:13 +0100 Subject: H-COST: LONG - historical publisher Rant - -Poster: cnevin@caci.co.uk At the London Book Trade Fair last weekend I had the great misfortune to meet and have a discussion with Jean Hunnisett's publisher, Bill from Player Press. They have put out a 1920s book of fashions and patterns with original photos and photos of the reproductions which is excellent, and which I still intend buying. From there I went on to discuss medieval pattern books with him. When I said Janet Arnold's death was a great pity, he said "Well, not really..." I foolishly thought he meant it was possibly a relief to end the pain of the cancer. But no - he proceeded to spend the next ten minutes libelling Janet Arnold by saying; - - her research was sloppy and inaccurate - - her measurements were off - - the Museums she did business with had disliked her because she used photos she didn't have permission to (in a JA book?!) and she stole things from them - - Hunnisett's books were more historically accurate - - He had been going to publish a book early this year of "corrections to Janet Arnold's books", but that Jean had decided she didn't want to now Janet was dead (though what Jean had to do with it he wasn't clear on), but once Jean died he probably would print it (now that's the kind of publisher you need - one who can't wait till you die!). Basically I stood there and went "Uh huh?" "Oh I didn't know that" and "Really?" - not exactly scintillating conversation on my part but initially I couldn't believe my ears, and then quickly realised he was the type of person you just don't bother wasting your energy arguing with. Janet Arnold's books may not have been 100% perfect (whose are?), but this kind of personal attack and libel is not only outrageous but also ridiculous. People will still buy both the books, instead of just one - the only logical reason I can see why he was saying those things (apart from a naturally unpleasant personality). He then proceeded to enquire if I had any articles on costuming which he might be generous enough to include in a compilation publication he occasionally does. Yeah, when Hell freezes over, mate... Why am I bothering to tell you this? a) because I want to warn people about him - if you ever meet him, you should take EVERYTHING he says with a MOUNTAIN of salt. b) because it's hard enough getting decent historical and theatrical costuming books without putting up with this kind of pathetic industry back-stabbing. c) because it pissed me off and I need to vent - I refuse to let him get away with saying that kind of thing and trying to poison my mind. This has no reflection whatsoever on Jean Hunnisett, who I think does excellent theatrical books (I just pity her having to deal with him). Regards, Tina Nevin _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "TC Carstensen" Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 06:16:57 -0500 Subject: Re: H-COST: Re: H-COST - -Poster: "TC Carstensen" >-Poster: "christianna del Oro" > I bought a black fur coat(old and used) and i would to know if any >body could tell me what the name of the fur is, how much it's worth and >so on. As someone else already mentioned, it sounds like Persian lamb. According to Marsha Hunt in _The Way We Wore_, such coats were associated with older women in the 1930's and 40's. It wasn't that younger women didn't find them fashionable - the darn things were so expensive that usually only older, very rich women could afford them. Ironically, they now sell for dirt cheap. I've gotten them for as low as $5, although they usually sell for around $15 to $25 here (Ohio). BTW, for anyone interested in clothes from the 30's and 40's, I highly recommend _The Way We Wore_. Marsha Hunt was a Hollywood actress back then and a clothing designer in her own right. Her insights into what was stylish, approropriate, etc. are fascinating. TC _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: kat@grendal.rain.com Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 06:37:11 +0000 Subject: Re: H-COST: LONG - historical publisher Rant - -Poster: kat@grendal.rain.com > At the London Book Trade Fair last weekend I had the great misfortune to > meet and have a discussion with Jean Hunnisett's publisher, Bill from Player > Press. > - He had been going to publish a book early this year of "corrections > to Janet Arnold's books", but that Jean had decided she didn't want to now > Janet was dead (though what Jean had to do with it he wasn't clear on), but > once Jean died he probably would print it (now that's the kind of publisher > you need - one who can't wait till you die!). If he does, he may be stepping on copywrite toes anyway as this book is already in print (well, it was in the past.) It's called "The Annotated Arnold" and was written by Bob Trump. Most of the corrections are minor (like putting one set of hooks and eyes on a waistband instead of 2, 2 stripes where only one was in the original, measurements off by 1/4", etc.). When Janet was asked about some of the errors, she admitted that her graduate students had done the redrawings for her (but since they have different ways of looking at crediting of students than the US, I guess that's fair.) That doesn't take away from her work as a whole. Nor does it make her a "sloppy historian." Probably what happened is that he has heard some of the normal grouching that people in a close knit community do when they think it will go no further. I'm sure you know the kind of things like that (as they sometimes even appear on this list at times) such as "I wish she had made a better color choice there. It's not a very period color." Or "She missed that source on nitpickydetail#1 when she wrote that." Or "Hey, I can do better than that. Look at that pickydetail#2 on that collar!" It does sound like he was stepping over the bounds of respect, doesn't it. Kat Kat(June Russell) kat@grendal.rain.com Heu! Tintinnuntius meus Sonat! _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Kyna Grannd" Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 09:51:34 -0500 Subject: H-COST: Greenburg & Hammer WAS Re: Amazon Drygoods - -Poster: "Kyna Grannd" Ummm....do you have an address or phone number???? Please???? :D ~Kyna >Dear List, > >Not to take anything away from Amazon Drygoods, but I recently ordered >some corset supplies (a busk, boning, etc) from Greenberg & Hammer and >they had what appeared to be wholesale prices on lots of cool things. >The busk I ordered was at least $10 cheaper than any other price I could >find!! > >They are not on the Web and their catalog costs $1 (last I checked) but >if you are willing to send away for the catalog, I think it is well >worth your time! They also give bulk discounts if you have a need to >order large quantities of things. > >And last time I ordered from them, they were very polite, helpful and >mailed my things in a very timely manner. Just wanted to share another >resource! > > >Diana :~> _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: cnevin@caci.co.uk Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 15:47:46 +0100 Subject: H-COST: Up&coming books - -Poster: cnevin@caci.co.uk The 1920s book I spoke about is apparently getting more photos, but won't be printed until the current edition has all sold. I'm pretty sure this is it below; Women's Wear of the 1920's by Ruth Countryman , Elizabeth Weiss Hopper Our Price: $57.00 Hardcover (August 1998) Players Press; ISBN: 0887346545 Does anyone on the list have a copy? What did you think? They have also done a 1930s book in the same series (which was there, but I didn't actually view it), which if it is as good as the '20s one looks to be, is another 'must buy'. I'm not sure when this will be coming out, possibly later this year. Regards, Tina Nevin ---------- From: Firefly [SMTP:fire.fly@hotbot.com] Sent: Thursday, April 01, 1999 3:27 PM To: Christina Nevin Subject: (No Subject) Apart from the petty talk, I wonder if Bill has any news about upcoming books? I haven't posted this to the listserve, but your answer may be interesting to everyone, so you may want to post it there as well. Still, he sounds like an irritating fellow! --- Visit my homepage: http://pages.hotbot.com/travel/fire.fly HotBot - Search smarter. http://www.hotbot.com _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Susan Carroll-Clark" Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 10:53:12 -0500 Subject: Re: H-COST: LONG - historical publisher Rant - -Poster: "Susan Carroll-Clark" Greetings! This is interesting. A friend of mine e-mailed me a few months ago after I mentioned Ms. Arnold's death in passing on an SCA newsgroup and mentioned that she'd heard similar accusations (that museums didn't like her and that there were errors in her drawings.) I, likewise, just said "Huh?" because I'd never heard a peep from the historic costuming community that she was anything other than extremely well-regarded. I'm just a thesis defense away from a doctorate in history, and I can safely say that Ms. Arnold's research is most definitely *not* sloppy. Susan Carroll-Clark _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: DRGurley@aol.com Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 11:05:15 EST Subject: Re: H-COST: Amazon Drygoods - -Poster: DRGurley@aol.com Where, please, can I find Greenberg & Hammer? _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Merouda the True of Bornover Date: Thu, 01 Apr 1999 08:18:25 -0800 Subject: H-COST: Greenburg & Hammer - -Poster: Merouda the True of Bornover So what is their contact info? They sound great. Cynthia > I recently ordered > some corset supplies (a busk, boning, etc) from Greenberg & Hammer and > they had what appeared to be wholesale prices on lots of cool things. - -- Cynthia Long Merouda the True of Bornover Barony of Madrone Kingdom of An Tir _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Franchesca Havas" Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 10:23:35 -0600 Subject: Re: H-COST: Greenburg & Hammer - -Poster: "Franchesca Havas" >From http://www.dnaco.net/~aleed/corsets/mailorder.html Greenberg and Hammer 24 W. 57th St. NY, New York 212-246-2835. 72437,674@compuserve.com steel and plastic boning. Their boning is the cheapest I've found anywhere. Sincerely, F. Havas - -----Original Message----- From: Merouda the True of Bornover To: h-costume@indra.com Date: Thursday, April 01, 1999 10:17 AM Subject: H-COST: Greenburg & Hammer : :-Poster: Merouda the True of Bornover : :So what is their contact info? They sound great. Cynthia : :> I recently ordered :> some corset supplies (a busk, boning, etc) from Greenberg & Hammer and :> they had what appeared to be wholesale prices on lots of cool things. : :-- :Cynthia Long :Merouda the True of Bornover :Barony of Madrone :Kingdom of An Tir : : : _________________________________________________________________ : To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com : with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME : _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: KaosWarior@vcnet.com Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 09:07:12 -0800 Subject: Re: H-COST: Febreze - -Poster: KaosWarior@vcnet.com I know that this may be redundant... But, I'm wondering if the afflicted animals in question, were directly sprayed with said product, where upon they licked their fur, there by ingesting the toxin? just something I was wondering about (when all else fails-read the directions) Thanks for your time, Scott >-Poster: Julie Adams > >Joanne Howl, DVM forwarded me this as she just received it in the mail: > >>Date: March 26, 1999 >>To: Whom It May Concern >>Subject: Febrezeô Fabric Refresher >> >>Sincerely, >> >>Steven R. Hansen, DVM, MS >>Diplomate American Board of Veterinary Toxicology >>Senior Vice President _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Merouda the True of Bornover Date: Thu, 01 Apr 1999 09:15:13 -0800 Subject: Re: H-COST: Febreze - -Poster: Merouda the True of Bornover As far as I know it's not accurate that there have been any deaths or injuries. It is however only meant for fabric. C~ > But, I'm wondering if the afflicted animals in question, > were directly sprayed with said product, where upon they > licked their fur, there by ingesting the toxin? > > just something I was wondering about > (when all else fails-read the directions) > > Thanks for your time, > Scott > > >-Poster: Julie Adams > > > >Joanne Howl, DVM forwarded me this as she just received it in the mail: > > > >>Date: March 26, 1999 > >>To: Whom It May Concern > >>Subject: Febrezeô Fabric Refresher > >> > > >>Sincerely, > >> > >>Steven R. Hansen, DVM, MS > >>Diplomate American Board of Veterinary Toxicology > >>Senior Vice President > > _________________________________________________________________ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME - -- Cynthia Long Merouda the True of Bornover Barony of Madrone Kingdom of An Tir _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: SAQUEEN@aol.com Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 12:53:40 EST Subject: Re: H-COST: Up&coming books - -Poster: SAQUEEN@aol.com Dear Tina, I spoke with Ruth Countryman on Tuesday evening about another topic. She did say in passing that she and Liz are working the the 1930s copy. Both Liz and Ruth are detailed people, very saavy, very aware of how people use this type of book. Sally Costume Calendar Series, Calendar 2000 available June 1, 1999 http://www.sallyqueenassociates.com _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ End of h-costume-digest V4 #253 ******************************* _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME-DIGEST From ???@??? Mon Apr 12 09:28:06 1999 Received: from mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE (mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE [130.149.4.14]) by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA00560 for ; Fri, 2 Apr 1999 00:48:31 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from mail.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.15]) by mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10SqGE-0003XI-00; Fri, 2 Apr 1999 00:48:30 +0200 Received: from coal.bg.tu-berlin.de by mail.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Fri, 2 Apr 1999 00:48:28 +0200 Received: from mail.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.15]) by mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10SqG8-0003XC-00; Fri, 2 Apr 1999 00:48:24 +0200 Received: from tubkom.prz.tu-berlin.de by mail.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Fri, 2 Apr 1999 00:48:23 +0200 Received: from mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE (mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE [130.149.4.14]) by tubkom.prz.tu-berlin.de (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA29586 for ; Fri, 2 Apr 1999 00:46:40 +0200 (MESZ) Received: from mail.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.15]) by mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10SqG4-0003X7-00; Fri, 2 Apr 1999 00:48:20 +0200 Received: from server.indra.com by mail.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Fri, 2 Apr 1999 00:48:17 +0200 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.8.5/) with ESMTP id PAA08265; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 15:51:22 -0700 (MST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id PAA25041 for h-costume-digest-outgoing; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 15:46:03 -0700 (MST) Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 15:46:03 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199904012246.PAA25041@indra.com> From: owner-h-costume-digest@indra.com To: h-costume-digest@indra.com Subject: h-costume-digest V4 #254 Reply-To: h-costume-digest@indra.com Errors-To: owner-h-costume-digest@indra.com Precedence: bulk h-costume-digest Thursday, 1 April 1999 Volume 04 : Number 254 In this issue: Re: H-COST: LONG - historical publisher Rant Re: H-COST: Amazon Drygoods Re: H-COST: Greenburg & Hammer H-COST: Pellison question Re: H-COST: LONG - historical publisher Rant H-COST: Ain't worth shootin' Re: H-COST: Greenburg & Hammer Re: H-COST: Ain't worth shootin' Re: H-COST: Pellison question H-COST: New Simplicity "Titanic" pattern Re: H-COST: New Simplicity "Titanic" pattern Re: H-COST: Pellison question Re: H-COST: Pellison question ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Lavolta Press Date: Thu, 01 Apr 1999 10:13:28 -0800 Subject: Re: H-COST: LONG - historical publisher Rant - -Poster: Lavolta Press > But no - he proceeded to spend the next ten minutes > libelling Janet Arnold by saying; > - her research was sloppy and inaccurate > - her measurements were off > - the Museums she did business with had disliked her because she used > photos she didn't have permission to (in a JA book?!) and she stole things > from them > - Hunnisett's books were more historically accurate > - He had been going to publish a book early this year of "corrections > to Janet Arnold's books", but that Jean had decided she didn't want to now > Janet was dead (though what Jean had to do with it he wasn't clear on), but > once Jean died he probably would print it (now that's the kind of publisher > you need - one who can't wait till you die!). > If what you say is true, his behavior is highly unprofessional. Aside from that, there's more I could say, but I'll be brief to avoid breaking my own rules. I worked in commercial publishing, for a number of book and magazine authors, for years before starting a small press, and hope I am familiar with the ethics of the business. All publishers and authors of the same type of material are, in a sense, in competition. However, that does not mean they have bad relationships with each other. Often they have excellent relationships. It is only mature to realize that there are other publishers in the market--and also that there are a lot of readers, many of whom will buy books by numerous authors and publishers. If you think another publisher or author has better books and/or marketing than you do, you take steps to improve your own work, rather than slamming theirs. If you are an author who sometimes publishes reviews of other authors' books, you are responsible for assessing and reporting the strengths and weaknesses of those books as honestly as possible--not just slamming them because they're by competitors or praising them because they're by friends. Editors may do a certain amount of complaining to their coworkers to let off steam at the end of the day, about authors who are difficult to work with and suchlike. Just like any other office in any other business. However, such comments are not made in public. They get around and hurt business. Do you want to work with a publisher, who, for example, is hoping their other authors will die? Understandably not. Anyway, I don't know anyone at Players Press. I have always thought they publish excellent books. All I can say is, I hope you're mistaken (though if they ever ask me to lunch I may not accept). Fran Grimble - ---------------------------------------------- Visit our web sites! Books on historic costume and vintage clothes http://www.best.com/~lavolta/index.htm Vintage and historic dance http://www.best.com/~lavolta/dance/index.htm _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Brandy Dickson" Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 10:53:36 -0800 Subject: Re: H-COST: Amazon Drygoods - -Poster: "Brandy Dickson" So, do they have a phone # or an address I can snail mail to? Greenberg & Hammer _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Diana H Date: Thu, 01 Apr 1999 11:28:35 -0800 Subject: Re: H-COST: Greenburg & Hammer - -Poster: Diana H > -Poster: "Franchesca Havas" > > Greenberg and Hammer > 24 W. 57th St. > NY, New York > 212-246-2835. > 72437,674@compuserve.com > steel and plastic boning. Their boning is the cheapest I've found > anywhere. > They also have a fax & toll-free number-- fax--212-765-8475 toll-free--800-955-5135 Diana :~> - -- * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * "There are too many mediocre things in life to deal with.....Love shouldn't be one of them." - --Ione Skye in "Dream for an Insomniac" _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Kevin and Carol Date: Thu, 01 Apr 1999 11:48:41 -0800 Subject: H-COST: Pellison question - -Poster: Kevin and Carol Hello list. I am searching for information/documentation on a garment called a pellison. My costume books do nothing more than mention it in passing as the forerunner of the 18th century Pellise. Is there anyone out there who can suggest where I might find more information? Thank you in advance for your help. Carol Brink _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Robin Netherton Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 15:02:02 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: H-COST: LONG - historical publisher Rant - -Poster: Robin Netherton On Thu, 1 Apr 1999, Susan Carroll-Clark wrote: > This is interesting. A friend of mine e-mailed me a few months ago after I > mentioned Ms. Arnold's death in passing on an SCA newsgroup and mentioned > that she'd heard similar accusations (that museums didn't like her and that > there were errors in her drawings.) I, likewise, just said "Huh?" because > I'd never heard a peep from the historic costuming community that she was > anything other than extremely well-regarded. I'm sure some of these reports from museums, etc. reflect a matter of personality clashes. Being a great researcher and brilliant theorist is not inconsistent with having a strong personality. I did not know Ms. Arnold personally -- we corresponded once or twice, and I heard her lecture -- so I cannot guess how she dealt with others one-on-one, in other settings. Perhaps others on this list worked more closely with her. I do have one anecdote to share. I have a friend who is a librarian/archivist for a small private institution in England. Janet Arnold saw one of the portraits in this collection and decided it was a hitherto unidentified portrait of Queen Elizabeth. The portrait had always been identified as a particular noblewoman associated with the founding of the institution, and my friend had fairly strong documentation for that. (I saw his materials; a copy of her will, which listed jewelry consistent with what was shown in the portrait; a second and undisputed portrait of her that showed a definite facial resemblance to the disputed one; and inventories of the portrait in question from the early 1600s, naming the sitter -- presumably the writer of the inventories would have known E.R. by sight and wouldn't have confused her with the sitter. Taken by itself, the portrait does look a bit like the standard images of E.R., but didn't every woman of that time want to look like E.R.?) Anyway, my friend, who is very mild-mannered and bookish, wrote me to ask if I'd ever heard of the Arnold person, and did I know why she was insisting on writing him weekly to repeat her arguments? I replied that Arnold's reputation was as a stellar costume researcher, and that as far as I was concerned it was richly deserved, but I did not know personally how she dealt with people who disagreed with her findings or theories. I still don't know how it came out, or who was right. But I do know that my friend is not the argumentative sort by nature. He does know his work very well, and he is quite open to new and interesting scholarly interpretations if he sees merit in them. He did not see merit in this, and I know he considered seriously what she said. Sometimes good scholars simply disagree. Given that my friend has no reason to be familiar with Arnold's costume work, I can imagine what his impression he has of her as a scholar based on this one episode. I think it says a lot of him that he contacted me to get a second opinion from someone who does know costume. Perhaps there are others who were in a similar position who did not take that step, and who formed their opinions on the basis of encounters like this. - --Robin _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "David W. Rickman" Date: Thu, 1 Apr 99 15:15:36 EST Subject: H-COST: Ain't worth shootin' - -Poster: "David W. Rickman" Hello, I was deeply disturbed by the statements made about Janet Arnold by the publisher quoted below. My wife and I had the great honor to know Janet, to have her stay with us a few years ago when she visited the states and to correspond and visit with her in England. I can say without hesitation that she was a great scholar, but more importantly, simply one of finest human beings we have ever known. There is no way that I can convey the deep humanity, grace, humor and, in her last years, courage which Janet brought to her life and with which she touched the lives of those who knew her. She was a person who should never have had an enemy in the world, and yet it seems that she did. Personally, I feel rather soiled to have heard these things. The honor and love in which she was held by both the theatrical and the scholarly world is well demonstrated by the special awards she received, and the exhibit in her honor. I hardly think it is likely that Janet ever did a dishonest or unethical thing in any museum - since all major museums throughout Europe and America hold her today in great honor and always made their collections available to her. As both a scholar and a human being, Janet has already risen far above such a pitiful attempt at slander. David Rickman drickman@state.de.us _______________________________________________ - - -Poster: cnevin@caci.co.uk At the London Book Trade Fair last weekend I had the great misfortune to meet and have a discussion with Jean Hunnisett's publisher, Bill from Player Press. They have put out a 1920s book of fashions and patterns with original photos and photos of the reproductions which is excellent, and which I still intend buying. From there I went on to discuss medieval pattern books with him. When I said Janet Arnold's death was a great pity, he said "Well, not really..." I foolishly thought he meant it was possibly a relief to end the pain of the cancer. But no - he proceeded to spend the next ten minutes libelling Janet Arnold by saying; - - - her research was sloppy and inaccurate - - - her measurements were off - - - the Museums she did business with had disliked her because she used photos she didn't have permission to (in a JA book?!) and she stole things from them - - - Hunnisett's books were more historically accurate - - - He had been going to publish a book early this year of "corrections to Janet Arnold's books", but that Jean had decided she didn't want to now Janet was dead (though what Jean had to do with it he wasn't clear on), but once Jean died he probably would print it (now that's the kind of publisher you need - one who can't wait till you die!). _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Lynn Downward Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 12:42:14 -0800 Subject: Re: H-COST: Greenburg & Hammer - -Poster: Lynn Downward >-Poster: Diana H > >> -Poster: "Franchesca Havas" >> >> Greenberg and Hammer >> 24 W. 57th St. >> NY, New York >> 212-246-2835. >> 72437,674@compuserve.com >> steel and plastic boning. Their boning is the cheapest I've found >> anywhere. >> > >They also have a fax & toll-free number-- >fax--212-765-8475 >toll-free--800-955-5135 > >Diana :~> > >-- I just called the 800 # to ask how much the catalog is. It's free so I requested one. They took my name and address, but they are currently out of the catalog. She guessed that I'd get one in about a month. LynnD _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Merouda the True of Bornover Date: Thu, 01 Apr 1999 13:09:23 -0800 Subject: Re: H-COST: Ain't worth shootin' - -Poster: Merouda the True of Bornover Thank you so much for your words. Although I never met Janet Arnold, I too hold her in great esteem and am grateful for her careful work. It is heartening to know that her heart matched her talent. Huge. Cynthia - -- Cynthia Long Merouda the True of Bornover Barony of Madrone Kingdom of An Tir _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Merouda the True of Bornover Date: Thu, 01 Apr 1999 13:12:49 -0800 Subject: Re: H-COST: Pellison question - -Poster: Merouda the True of Bornover There are a quick one or two mentions of the fur lined pelison in _Fashion in the Age of the Black Prince_ by Mary Stella Newton. It was listed in somewardrobe accountings. I warn you, it's not much. However, she is highly respected and I wouldn't feel as though I hadn't tried if she was the only documentation I found on it. :) Cynthia > I am searching for information/documentation on a garment called a > pellison. My costume books do nothing more than mention it in passing > as the forerunner of the 18th century Pellise. Is there anyone out > there who can suggest where I might find more information? > > Thank you in advance for your help. > > Carol Brink > _________________________________________________________________ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME - -- Cynthia Long Merouda the True of Bornover Barony of Madrone Kingdom of An Tir _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Broneske Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 13:16:07 -0800 Subject: H-COST: New Simplicity "Titanic" pattern - -Poster: Broneske Hi all, I was out at the fabric store today, browsing through the pattern books = when I came across Simplicity pattern #8640 -- almost exact replica of = the Titanic blue "Flying Dress". It says "Retro Simplicity" on the = front. Of course, I picked it up to add to the pile of projects that I = have in mind but haven't completed. Joan Broneske (Yes, I still have to finish my "jump dress" and update my web page on = it) _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Sarah Toney" Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 16:42:48 -0500 Subject: Re: H-COST: New Simplicity "Titanic" pattern - -Poster: "Sarah Toney" I have used this pattern (very recently ,of course). It's a nice pattern... just beware... it runs a bit small... ;-) Sarah I was out at the fabric store today, browsing through the pattern books when I came across Simplicity pattern #8640 -- almost exact replica of the Titanic blue "Flying Dress". It says "Retro Simplicity" on the front. Of course, I picked it up to add to the pile of projects that I have in mind but haven't completed. Joan Broneske (Yes, I still have to finish my "jump dress" and update my web page on it) _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Christina Date: Thu, 01 Apr 1999 16:38:37 -0600 Subject: Re: H-COST: Pellison question - -Poster: Christina > There are a quick one or two mentions of the fur lined pelison in _Fashion > in the Age of the Black Prince_ by Mary Stella Newton. I thought that it was spelled pelicon (with the funky french c)? I know I've seen mention of it somewhere else, but I may have to go digging. - -Christina _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Merouda the True of Bornover Date: Thu, 01 Apr 1999 14:46:46 -0800 Subject: Re: H-COST: Pellison question - -Poster: Merouda the True of Bornover Just remember that medieval spelling was not like it is today. Different people spelled the same word quite differently, from what I understand, it just wasn't that important to them. Can you spell phonics? *G* It seems that that is what they used. Pelison, pelicon, pellison. Same thing. And you'll probably find period sources for all three different spellings. And not only that but sometimes the same thing had 3-6 different words all meaning the same garment, such as kirtle, cotehardie, supertunic, supertunice, etc.... it gets confusing but I assure you, it's all accurate and all period. Cynthia > >> There are a quick one or two mentions of the fur lined pelison in _Fashion > >I thought that it was spelled pelicon Cynthia Long Merouda the True of Bornover Barony of Madrone Kingdom of An Tir _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ End of h-costume-digest V4 #254 ******************************* _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME-DIGEST From ???@??? Mon Apr 12 09:28:07 1999 Received: from mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE (mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE [130.149.4.14]) by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA03553 for ; Fri, 2 Apr 1999 17:10:07 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from mail.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.15]) by mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10T5aA-0004yC-00; Fri, 2 Apr 1999 17:10:06 +0200 Received: from coal.bg.tu-berlin.de by mail.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Fri, 2 Apr 1999 17:09:54 +0200 Received: from tubkom.prz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.62.9] ident=root) by mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10T5Zv-0004xm-00; Fri, 2 Apr 1999 17:09:51 +0200 Received: from mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE (mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE [130.149.4.14]) by tubkom.prz.tu-berlin.de (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA03275 for ; Fri, 2 Apr 1999 17:08:07 +0200 (MESZ) Received: from mail.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.15]) by mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10T5Zs-0004xi-01; Fri, 2 Apr 1999 17:09:48 +0200 Received: from server.indra.com by mail.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Fri, 2 Apr 1999 17:09:34 +0200 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.8.5/) with ESMTP id IAA11579; Fri, 2 Apr 1999 08:14:50 -0700 (MST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id IAA29142 for h-costume-digest-outgoing; Fri, 2 Apr 1999 08:07:52 -0700 (MST) Date: Fri, 2 Apr 1999 08:07:52 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199904021507.IAA29142@indra.com> From: owner-h-costume-digest@indra.com To: h-costume-digest@indra.com Subject: h-costume-digest V4 #255 Reply-To: h-costume-digest@indra.com Errors-To: owner-h-costume-digest@indra.com Precedence: bulk h-costume-digest Friday, 2 April 1999 Volume 04 : Number 255 In this issue: Re: H-COST: Pellison question Re: H-COST: LONG - historical publisher Rant H-COST: Juan de Alcega Re: H-COST: LONG - historical publisher Rant Re: H-COST: LONG - historical publisher Rant H-COST: Regency event (Australia) H-COST: 4th Annual Costumers Ball (Australia) H-COST: Alternative to grommets/eyelets H-COST: hats Re: H-COST: Alternative to grommets/eyelets Re: H-COST: Ghita? H-COST: follow up to AlterYears complaint Re: H-COST: Alternative to grommets/eyelets ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: lilinah@grin.net Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 15:09:17 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: H-COST: Pellison question - -Poster: lilinah@grin.net Christina wrote: > >I thought that it was spelled pelicon (with the funky french c)? I know I've >seen mention of it somewhere else, but I may have to go digging. Just in case inquiring minds want to know, that funky thingy below the "c" is called a cedilla. It means the "c" has a soft "s" sound when followed by an "a", an "o", or a "u"; without the cedilla, the "c" would have a hard "k" sound when followed by an "a", an "o", or a "u" - in French. A "c" before an "e" or an "i" always has a soft "s" sound in French. Lilinah La plume de ma tante est... wherever she wants it :-) _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Margo Anderson Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 15:19:24 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: H-COST: LONG - historical publisher Rant - -Poster: Margo Anderson >Probably what happened is that he has heard some of the normal >grouching that people in a close knit community do when they think >it will go no further. I'm sure you know the kind of things like that >(as they sometimes even appear on this list at times) such as "I wish >she had made a better color choice there. It's not a very period >color." Or "She missed that source on nitpickydetail#1 when she >wrote that." Or "Hey, I can do better than that. Look at that >pickydetail#2 on that collar!" I've long said that costuming is the bitchiest of the arts, although my opinion on that has changed considerably in the years I've been on this list, where we usually manage to behave like ladies and gentlemen. How sad to hear that nastiness about another costume person can extend to slandering the dead. Margo Anderson _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: KATHARINE WHISLER Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 18:02:00 -0600 Subject: H-COST: Juan de Alcega - -Poster: KATHARINE WHISLER I apologize if this is a repeat posting-- I think the first time I tried to send it it didn't work. Marsha McLean mentioned "Libro de Geometria, Pratica y Traca" by Juan de Alcega (Tailor's Pattern Book, 1589) as being a useful book and suggested that people look for it in facsimile at a large library or through interlibrary loan. I recently found out some great news about this book-- the publisher of the 1979 translation & facsimile, Ruth Bean in the U.K., finally reissued it this February! I understand that the first shipment will reach U.S. shores sometime early this month. It is $40 (U.S.), or L25 (U.K.), in paperback. To order directly from the U.S. distributor, contact: Quite Specific Media Group, Ltd. Attn: Ralph Pine 260 Fifth Avenue, New York, NY 10001 email: rpine@quitespecificmedia.com To order directly from the U.K. distributor, contact: Ruth Bean Publishers Attn: Nigel Bean Victoria Farmhouse Carlton Bedford MK43 7LP England email: rubean@kbnet.co.uk I hope this helps! (Note, Quite Specific Media Group is the same outfit that publishes "Patterns of Fashion.) Mr. Bean told me by e-mail that his company is planning a new book to be called the "Medieval Tailor's Assistant." It will be interesting to see if it is any better than Hunnisett's book. - --Katharine Whisler _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "R.L. Shep" Date: Thu, 01 Apr 1999 16:22:18 -0800 Subject: Re: H-COST: LONG - historical publisher Rant - -Poster: "R.L. Shep" I think all this talk about Janet Arnold is really disgusting and frankly it is just sour grapes. Some people have to make themselves bigger by putting other people down. Janet Arnold has been a leading light in our industry for many years now. Her death is a great tragedy for all of us whether we realize it or not. ~!~ R.L.Shep http://www.mcn.org/e/fsbks - ---------- >From: Margo Anderson >To: h-costume@indra.com >Subject: Re: H-COST: LONG - historical publisher Rant >Date: Thu, Apr 1, 1999, 3:19 PM > > >-Poster: Margo Anderson > > >>Probably what happened is that he has heard some of the normal >>grouching that people in a close knit community do when they think >>it will go no further. I'm sure you know the kind of things like that >>(as they sometimes even appear on this list at times) such as "I wish >>she had made a better color choice there. It's not a very period >>color." Or "She missed that source on nitpickydetail#1 when she >>wrote that." Or "Hey, I can do better than that. Look at that >>pickydetail#2 on that collar!" > > >I've long said that costuming is the bitchiest of the arts, although my >opinion on that has changed considerably in the years I've been on this >list, where we usually manage to behave like ladies and gentlemen. How sad >to hear that nastiness about another costume person can extend to slandering >the dead. > >Margo Anderson > > _________________________________________________________________ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME > _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Genevieve de Courtanvaux" Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 19:27:29 -0600 Subject: Re: H-COST: LONG - historical publisher Rant - -Poster: "Genevieve de Courtanvaux" Ok, I can't take it anymore.......(yes, I truly believe that Janet Arnold was a costuming goddess) but you are all taking third party information as fact. Please, bear in mind that you were not present at said conversation and therefor do not truly know its context. No on....I repeat....no one can truly know the whole story. So it is my suggestion that we move on from this topic to a new one that is not blaming someone for something with which they can not defend themselves. Carol Ross - -----Original Message----- From: R.L. Shep To: h-costume@indra.com Date: Thursday, April 01, 1999 6:26 PM Subject: Re: H-COST: LONG - historical publisher Rant > >-Poster: "R.L. Shep" > >I think all this talk about Janet Arnold is really disgusting and frankly it >is just sour grapes. Some people have to make themselves bigger by putting >other people down. >Janet Arnold has been a leading light in our industry for many years now. >Her death is a great tragedy for all of us whether we realize it or not. >~!~ R.L.Shep >http://www.mcn.org/e/fsbks > >---------- >>From: Margo Anderson >>To: h-costume@indra.com >>Subject: Re: H-COST: LONG - historical publisher Rant >>Date: Thu, Apr 1, 1999, 3:19 PM >> > >> >>-Poster: Margo Anderson >> >> >>>Probably what happened is that he has heard some of the normal >>>grouching that people in a close knit community do when they think >>>it will go no further. I'm sure you know the kind of things like that >>>(as they sometimes even appear on this list at times) such as "I wish >>>she had made a better color choice there. It's not a very period >>>color." Or "She missed that source on nitpickydetail#1 when she >>>wrote that." Or "Hey, I can do better than that. Look at that >>>pickydetail#2 on that collar!" >> >> >>I've long said that costuming is the bitchiest of the arts, although my >>opinion on that has changed considerably in the years I've been on this >>list, where we usually manage to behave like ladies and gentlemen. How sad >>to hear that nastiness about another costume person can extend to >slandering >>the dead. >> >>Margo Anderson >> >> _________________________________________________________________ >> To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com >> with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME >> > > > _________________________________________________________________ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME > _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Christopher Ballis" Date: Fri, 2 Apr 1999 13:56:16 +1000 Subject: H-COST: Regency event (Australia) - -Poster: "Christopher Ballis" On Saturday, June 5, 1999 the Australian Costumers' Guild is hosting A Regency Ball The evening's entertainment will include a four course meal, a group of fine musicians, dances including the quadrille and all the latest fashionable dances from London (including simple instructions), a dance caller, and a whist and games room for those disinclined to dance. An attempt at Regency costume (1811-1820, give or take a few years) is compulsory; for advice, contact Miss Purcell on +3 9504 3042. Northcote Assembly Rooms (Northcote Town Hall) High Street, Northcote, Vic. 7:00pm-midnight BYO alcohol, please indicate if you require a special meal Cost: 22 guineas (A$55 per person (tables of eight, A$400) Please make cheques/money orders payable to The Australian Costumers' Guild Bookings close Friday, 28 May. For more information, contact The Australian Costumers' Guild, PO Box 322, Bentleigh, 3204 Australia Tel. +3 9504 3042 E-mail stilskin@netspace.net.au _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Christopher Ballis" Date: Fri, 2 Apr 1999 14:03:28 +1000 Subject: H-COST: 4th Annual Costumers Ball (Australia) - -Poster: "Christopher Ballis" The Australian Costumers' Guild is pleased to announce its Fourth Annual Costumers' Ball, Saturday, 28 August, 1999 Melbourne Convention & Exhibition Centre Highlights of the ball include: A costume parade/masquerade (the parade will be run early so that entrants do not miss out on the rest of the evening's events); Full silver service meal; Displays of important costumes and fashion; Dancing; Fun; Etc. Cost is A$55 for International Costumers' Guild members, $65 for others (no door sales, bookings close Monday, 23 August). Doors open 6:30pm; costume parade/masquerade 7:30 (greenroom open from 4:00pm). Parade entry free to all attending - you must be a guild member to enter; numbers are limited so get in early; entry is by pre-registration only; for rules and regs, contact the parade director, Christopher Ballis on... Tel: +3 9457 4061 E-mail: stilskin@netspace.net.au Snailmail: PO Box 322, Bentleigh, 3204, Australia For more information on the ball, if you wish to volunteer, or any other stuff, contact the Australian Costumers' Guild on... the addresses or telephone number above! _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Tigershado@aol.com Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 23:18:58 EST Subject: H-COST: Alternative to grommets/eyelets - -Poster: Tigershado@aol.com I seem to remember a message not to long ago about an alternative to grommets/eyelets for lacing. Something about the lacing going through pieces attached to the clothing rather through holes. My memories a little fuzzy on this one. I came across: http://members.aol.com/DrgnflyDsn/Accessories.html and thought I'd get an opinion or two on their eyes & clasps. Barbara Corley Tigershado@aol.com _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Sue Shatto Date: Thu, 01 Apr 1999 23:49:15 -0500 Subject: H-COST: hats - -Poster: Sue Shatto List! I am carrying a line of miniature hat and bonnets. each one has been reproduced from fashion plates of the period. They come with the hat, a hat stand, a hat box(that has the fashion plate picture on it) a catalog with the history, a document of authenticity and numbered certificate of the limited addition. They are really magnificent! They are now also making shoes, but I don't have pictures of those yet. They are designed and made in Ireland. Check them out at my web site under Millinery in Miniature. Cordially, Sue Shatto Sue@VictorianMillinery.com http://www.VictorianMillinery.com _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Diana H Date: Fri, 02 Apr 1999 00:16:11 -0800 Subject: Re: H-COST: Alternative to grommets/eyelets - -Poster: Diana H Tigershado@aol.com wrote: > -Poster: Tigershado@aol.com > > I seem to remember a message not to long ago about an alternative to > grommets/eyelets for lacing. Something about the lacing going through > pieces > attached to the clothing rather through holes. My memories a little > fuzzy on > this one. I came across: > http://members.aol.com/DrgnflyDsn/Accessories.html > and thought I'd get an opinion or two on their eyes & clasps. The findings on the left are perfect for doing circa 1470-1500 Italian! The price isn't all that bad, either. I think I paid just a little less for the ones I bought two years ago. So if you want to do this period in Italians, they would be great to hold the lace for the bodice. Diana :~> - -- * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * "There are too many mediocre things in life to deal with.....Love shouldn't be one of them." - --Ione Skye in "Dream for an Insomniac" _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Henk 't Jong" Date: Fri, 2 Apr 1999 14:48:59 +0200 Subject: Re: H-COST: Ghita? - -Poster: "Henk 't Jong" Henk & Pauline 't Jong tScapreel Medieval Advisors Dordrecht, Netherlands Hi you all, Cynthia wrote: > In _Fashion in the Age of the Black Prince_ M.S. Newton mentions > "ghita's" as a garment worn by women. I can't find a description of a > ghita, or haven't yet. It seems to be something like the > supertunica, worn as the outer gown over an undertunic. > Any ideas? In my opinion this is a sleeveless garment of the 1340's mainly worn by royalty or nobility for ceremonial occasions (tournaments, weddings, crownings and other state-occasions). It is heavily embroidered, even powdered with little enameled plates, pearls and gold thread. It is (or they are) lined with fur. It could be that the name has something to do with it's function or the way it was embroidered. You can see similar ones in the Luttrell Psalter worn by the wife and daughter of sir Geoffrey, embroidered with their coats of arms. I personally think that there is not much difference with the also mentioned corset(te), although these seem to have had fastenings of buttons or points and were worn by men and women (a kind of cyclas?) in different lenghts and not so heavily embroidered or not at all. Hope this helps, Henk _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Van Cleave & Fleming" Date: Fri, 2 Apr 1999 10:01:09 -0500 Subject: H-COST: follow up to AlterYears complaint - -Poster: "Van Cleave & Fleming" I wanted to let you all know that I called AlterYears on Tuesday to follow up on my three unanswered emails. The person I spoke with was very polite. The problem with my order was the number of backorders/time it took to ship (the person I spoke with said that not all pattern publishers were in stock and ready to ship at all times, which provides evidence that perhaps they are not trying to keep all patterns in stock), that there was one item marked on my invoice as being shipped that I had never received, and that there was still a backordered item (5 months after placing the order). I received the missing pattern yesterday by priority mail with a note that I would be receiving a refund check for the still backordered item (I had asked to cancel it). So I'm quite satisfied with how this has all resolved itself (although still unsatisfied with the time it took to ship and their ignoring of my three emails). When I spoke with the salesperson I let her know that there had recently been some complaints about their shipping time on h-costume and recommended that they put a BIG note in their pattern catalog which states that they do not stock all items and there may be long delays in shipping. There is a note right now which says something to the effect that items may be backordered and take longer than 30 days to ship. So my problem is resolved, although I have to say that I will stick to ordering from Amazon Drygoods or direct from the publisher if at all possible from now on. Kendra Van Cleave _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Linda Yordy" Date: Fri, 2 Apr 1999 08:07:10 MST Subject: Re: H-COST: Alternative to grommets/eyelets - -Poster: "Linda Yordy" > . . . an alternative to > grommets/eyelets for lacing. Something about the lacing going through pieces > attached to the clothing rather through holes . . . >came across: >http://members.aol.com/DrgnflyDsn/Accessories.html Great web page find. Have you done business with them? Are they good to work with? I remember seeing something very similar to these in Italian Ren, late 15th century. Can't remember the exact picture, but can look it up at home (I'm at work). In Leonardo da Vinci's Portrait of Ginevra Benci (1474-1476), you see little metal circlets used for the lacing. You can find that portrait on the Web Gallery of Art. The search engine for that site is: http://www.kfki.hu/~arthp/search.html (I'd give you an exact address for the portrait, but Netscape brings up a separate window for the enlarged picture [an image viewer?] and I can't find an address) Linda Yordy Phone: 208/426-4034 Boise State University Center for Management Development 1910 University Drive Boise, ID 83725-1660 ******************************************************** Yordy's Law #3: When wearing white, apply your lunch directly to your shirt -- it will end up there anyway. _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ End of h-costume-digest V4 #255 ******************************* _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME-DIGEST From ???@??? Mon Apr 12 09:28:08 1999 Received: from mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE (mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE [130.149.4.14]) by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA07079 for ; Sat, 3 Apr 1999 12:25:37 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from mail.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.15]) by mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10TNcO-0000go-00; Sat, 3 Apr 1999 12:25:36 +0200 Received: from coal.bg.tu-berlin.de by mail.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Sat, 3 Apr 1999 12:25:35 +0200 Received: from tubkom.prz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.62.9] ident=root) by mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10TNcJ-0000gh-00; Sat, 3 Apr 1999 12:25:31 +0200 Received: from mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE (mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE [130.149.4.14]) by tubkom.prz.tu-berlin.de (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA07462 for ; Sat, 3 Apr 1999 12:23:47 +0200 (MESZ) Received: from mail.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.15]) by mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10TNcG-0000gf-00; Sat, 3 Apr 1999 12:25:28 +0200 Received: from server.indra.com by mail.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Sat, 3 Apr 1999 12:25:26 +0200 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.8.5/) with ESMTP id DAA23962; Sat, 3 Apr 1999 03:32:42 -0700 (MST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id DAA11090 for h-costume-digest-outgoing; Sat, 3 Apr 1999 03:23:52 -0700 (MST) Date: Sat, 3 Apr 1999 03:23:52 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199904031023.DAA11090@indra.com> From: owner-h-costume-digest@indra.com To: h-costume-digest@indra.com Subject: h-costume-digest V4 #256 Reply-To: h-costume-digest@indra.com Errors-To: owner-h-costume-digest@indra.com Precedence: bulk h-costume-digest Saturday, 3 April 1999 Volume 04 : Number 256 In this issue: H-COST: Janet Arnold (was Ain't worth shootin') Re: H-COST: Ghita? Re: H-COST: Janet Arnold (was Ain't worth shootin') H-COST: Fabric question H-COST: Costuming Guilds H-COST: Hat ID Re: H-COST: Costuming Guilds Re: H-COST: Hat ID Re: H-COST: Up&coming books Re: H-COST: Costuming Guilds Re: H-COST: Costuming Guilds -- Sacramento & vicinity H-COST: Re: film/costume/Rob Roy Re: H-COST: Alternative to grommets/eyelets H-COST: My Fair Lady Hat H-COST: Juan de Alcega H-COST: Seeking Folkwear Pattern 508 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: JPMcTeer@aol.com Date: Fri, 2 Apr 1999 10:54:51 EST Subject: H-COST: Janet Arnold (was Ain't worth shootin') - -Poster: JPMcTeer@aol.com I have always been impressed with Janet Arnold's published work and would like her legacy to be continued in the community of costume scholars. The original postings after her death suggested a medical research fund, but I was sure that the Costume Society of Britain or America would want to honor her. Has anyone set up a scholarship fund or other award in her name to which we can contribute? Does anyone have further information about the exhibit in Janet Arnold's honor? I believe it is at the V&A? Is there a catalog that we can order from the USA? Joan in Minneapolis from Digest 254 <<- -Poster: "David W. Rickman" Hello, I was deeply disturbed by the statements made about Janet Arnold by the publisher quoted below. My wife and I had the great honor to know Janet, to have her stay with us a few years ago when she visited the states and to correspond and visit with her in England. I can say without hesitation that she was a great scholar, but more importantly, simply one of finest human beings we have ever known. There is no way that I can convey the deep humanity, grace, humor and, in her last years, courage which Janet brought to her life and with which she touched the lives of those who knew her. She was a person who should never have had an enemy in the world, and yet it seems that she did. Personally, I feel rather soiled to have heard these things. The honor and love in which she was held by both the theatrical and the scholarly world is well demonstrated by the special awards she received, and the exhibit in her honor. I hardly think it is likely that Janet ever did a dishonest or unethical thing in any museum - since all major museums throughout Europe and America hold her today in great honor and always made their collections available to her. As both a scholar and a human being, Janet has already risen far above such a pitiful attempt at slander. David Rickman drickman@state.de.us>> _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Merouda the True of Bornover Date: Fri, 02 Apr 1999 08:42:02 -0800 Subject: Re: H-COST: Ghita? - -Poster: Merouda the True of Bornover > In my opinion this is a sleeveless garment of the 1340's mainly worn by > royalty or nobility for ceremonial occasions (tournaments, weddings, > crownings and other state-occasions). It is > heavily embroidered, even powdered with little enameled plates, pearls and > gold thread. It is (or they are) lined with fur. Yes, that is it. Excellent. Thanks. Trying to figure out how to make all those little plates. Cynthia - -- Cynthia Long Merouda the True of Bornover Barony of Madrone Kingdom of An Tir _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Margo Anderson Date: Fri, 2 Apr 1999 08:40:43 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: H-COST: Janet Arnold (was Ain't worth shootin') - -Poster: Margo Anderson At 10:54 AM 4/2/99 EST, you wrote: > >-Poster: JPMcTeer@aol.com > >I have always been impressed with Janet Arnold's published work and would >like >her legacy to be continued in the community of costume scholars. This reminds me of something I've been pondering for some time. Would it be possible to set up some kind of memorial funding to support costuming on the Net? I'm not sure what, perhaps giving small grants to sponsor Web pages or research to be published on the Web? I'm sure some members of this list would like to memorialize Miss Arnold this way. In addition, while I hope H-Costume goes on forever, I know the individual members won't. There will come a time when, like any community, we lose members to death. This would also give us a way to make contributions in our member's memory. While I have WAY too much going on right now, I would be willing to look into possibilities down the line. Also, my mother is an attorney specializing in wills and trusts, so I could probably get any legal workings taken care of inexpensively. Is anyone interested in this idea? Any suggestions? Margo Anderson _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Margo Anderson Date: Fri, 2 Apr 1999 10:45:21 -0800 (PST) Subject: H-COST: Fabric question - -Poster: Margo Anderson I got my tax return yesterday, and OF COURSE I bought fabric. I bought 8 yards of cotton calico, printed with a 1 1/2" Paisley motif in greys and taupes. I'm thinking of making this into an 1850's wrapper dress, suitable for work. Is the paisley appropriate, or would it have been used for a more formal dress? I could use it to make a simple street dress, if it's not appropriate for work wear. I really want my wrapper dress to be very accurate and appropriate for an immigrant woman. One of my personal costuming foibles is that no matter how simple I start out, the costume always ends up being on the upper end of the scale as to dressiness and ornamentation. I'm already stretching it a bit by planning to use cotton instead of wool, for budgetary reasons, and I'd rather not make any more concessions. So, should I use it for the wrapper, or for something else? Margo Anderson _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Vickers, Jill" Date: Fri, 2 Apr 1999 13:10:20 -0800 Subject: H-COST: Costuming Guilds - -Poster: "Vickers, Jill" This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. - ------ =_NextPart_001_01BE7D4D.37540420 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" I'm looking for a costuming guild for my mom, who lives in Cameron Park (between Sacramento and Placerville). I went on the ICG web site, but didn't see anything for her area. Can anyone tell me if there is a guild local to my mom, or should she just join the GBACG? Thanks, - -Jill - ------ =_NextPart_001_01BE7D4D.37540420 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Costuming Guilds

I'm looking for a costuming guild for = my mom, who lives in Cameron Park (between Sacramento and = Placerville).  I went on the ICG web site, but didn't see anything = for her area.

Can anyone tell me if there is a guild = local to my mom, or should she just join the GBACG?

Thanks,
-Jill

- ------ =_NextPart_001_01BE7D4D.37540420-- _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Kristen M. Sieber" Date: Fri, 2 Apr 1999 14:06:18 -0800 (PST) Subject: H-COST: Hat ID - -Poster: "Kristen M. Sieber" I am trying to identify a man's hat from the late 18th century. This is a time period I know nothing about, so I will try to describe it. It is similar to a top hat but the crown narrows at the top and the brim is a little wider. I have seen this hat on depictions of lepruchans! (I have been watching too much "Scarlet Pimpernel" and "Horatio Hornblower.) Kristen M. Sieber _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Margo Anderson Date: Fri, 2 Apr 1999 17:41:52 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: H-COST: Costuming Guilds - -Poster: Margo Anderson At 01:10 PM 4/2/99 -0800, you wrote: > >I'm looking for a costuming guild for my mom, who lives in Cameron Park >(between Sacramento and Placerville). I went on the ICG web site, but >didn't see anything for her area. > >Can anyone tell me if there is a guild local to my mom, or should she just >join the GBACG? > Hi Jill, I spoke to your mom a few weeks ago. As I told her, there isn't a guild currently but I am hoping to start one very soon. Margo Anderson _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: MorellEtc2@aol.com Date: Fri, 2 Apr 1999 23:05:12 EST Subject: Re: H-COST: Hat ID - -Poster: MorellEtc2@aol.com The style of hat you are trying to identify is generally refered to as a sugar loaf hat or having a sugar loaf crown. If memory serves it first appeared in fashionable circles in England in the last quarter of the 18th century and survived in one form or another into the later part of the 19th century. There are several portraits of regular army officers wearing them for undress during the War of 1812. Mike Morell _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Penny E. Ladnier" Date: Fri, 2 Apr 1999 23:15:30 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: H-COST: Up&coming books - -Poster: "Penny E. Ladnier" Liz was my costume history and design professor in college. I saw both her books in the making. The work they placed into creating their books is unbelievable. They did a wonderful job of creating scaled/graphed patterns with renderings of each garment. They went to many museums making patterns from original garments. Later...Penny >The 1920s book I spoke about is apparently getting more photos, but won't be >printed until the current edition has all sold. I'm pretty sure this is it >below; > >Women's Wear of the 1920's >by Ruth Countryman > , Elizabeth >Weiss Hopper > >Our Price: $57.00 Penny E. Dunlap Ladnier The Costume Gallery Website http://www.costumegallery.com _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Diana H Date: Fri, 02 Apr 1999 22:32:13 -0800 Subject: Re: H-COST: Costuming Guilds - -Poster: Diana H Margo Anderson wrote: > -Poster: Margo Anderson > > At 01:10 PM 4/2/99 -0800, you wrote: > > > >I'm looking for a costuming guild for my mom, who lives in Cameron > Park > >(between Sacramento and Placerville). I went on the ICG web site, > but > >didn't see anything for her area. > there isn't a > guild currently but I am hoping to start one very soon. > > Margo Anderson Dear Margo, I live in a suburb of Sacramento and would love to be involved in a costuming guild also! Would you mind including me in your list when you get things started? Mucho thanks! Diana :~> - -- * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * "There are too many mediocre things in life to deal with.....Love shouldn't be one of them." - --Ione Skye in "Dream for an Insomniac" _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Carol J. Bell Cannon" Date: Fri, 02 Apr 1999 23:06:02 -0800 Subject: Re: H-COST: Costuming Guilds -- Sacramento & vicinity - -Poster: "Carol J. Bell Cannon" I haven't heard of any particular costuming guilds. Perhaps it is time for those in the area who frequent this list to change that. :-) Carol _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Balaram@ix.netcom.com Date: Sat, 3 Apr 1999 02:33:14 -0700 (MST) Subject: H-COST: Re: film/costume/Rob Roy - -Poster: Balaram@ix.netcom.com Dear Friends: Am a little behind on my E's--Whoever was looking to buy something great for an event, may want to check-out Reelclothes.com, a business in Southern Calif. that resells wardrobe from Hollywood productions. Anything you buy worn by a major star will be pricey-however, background character items may be picked up quite reasonably. I was able to find 2 kilts from Rob Roy for $50 each, one of them worn by Rob's brother played by Brian McCardie, also the very cool leather jacket worn by Eric Stoltz in the final scenes before his demise. They also are selling some wardrobe from What Dreams May Come, inc the Tracker entire outfit... ok, I know, it's more fun to make your own costumes, this is cheating...but it is a very fun site to explore. No, no business connection with me, just thought I'd pass a great resource along. I delt with Lennard and the service was good also. As for Simbad movies--anyone on the list old enough to remember The 7th Voyage of Simbad ? My first fantasy movie as a kid--must have imprinted deeply. All the Best, Bill Z. _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Franchesca Havas" Date: Sat, 3 Apr 1999 02:39:10 -0700 (MST) Subject: Re: H-COST: Alternative to grommets/eyelets - -Poster: "Franchesca Havas" http://www.kfki.hu/~arthp/art/l/leonardo/painting/portrait/ginevra.jpg Sincerely, F. Havas Dallas, Texas _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Fern Whitaker" Date: Sat, 3 Apr 1999 02:40:35 -0700 (MST) Subject: H-COST: My Fair Lady Hat - -Poster: "Fern Whitaker" Sorry for the cross-post, but does anyone have any idea where I could = get a frame or hat like the one Audrey Hepburn wears in the Ascot scene = of MFL? It's the BIG white one with the black accents. I can make one = myself out of buckram and so on, but if I could find something close, = I'd rather go that route, since I'm running in 9 different directions as = it is, trying to move the shop.=20 Kat Hargus _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: KATHARINE WHISLER Date: Sat, 3 Apr 1999 02:51:14 -0700 (MST) Subject: H-COST: Juan de Alcega - -Poster: KATHARINE WHISLER Marsha McLean mentioned "Libro de Geometria, Pratica y Traca" by Juan de Alcega (Tailor's Pattern Book, 1589) as being a useful book and suggested that people look for it in facsimile at a large library or through interlibrary loan. The book is a 16th century Spanish guide for tailors showing efficient fabric cutting layouts for various fabric widths. It doesn't explain how to make the clothes, but it does show the shapes of the pattern pieces. I recently found out some great news about this book-- the publisher of the 1979 translation & facsimile, Ruth Bean in the U.K., finally reissued it this February! I understand that the first shipment will reach U.S. shores sometime early this month. It is $40 (U.S.), or L25 (U.K.), in paperback. To order directly from the U.S. distributor, contact: Quite Specific Media Group, Ltd. Attn: Ralph Pine 260 Fifth Avenue, New York, NY 10001 email: rpine@quitespecificmedia.com To order directly from the U.K. publisher, contact: Ruth Bean Publishers Attn: Nigel Bean Victoria Farmhouse Carlton Bedford MK43 7LP England email: rubean@kbnet.co.uk If you prefer to wait for your local bookstore to order it, the ISBN is: 0903585316 I hope this helps! (Note, Quite Specific Media Group is the same outfit that publishes Arnold's "Patterns of Fashion" series.) Mr. Bean told me by e-mail that his company is planning a new book to be called the "Medieval Tailor's Assistant." It will be interesting to see if it is any better than Hunnisett's book. - --Katharine Whisler _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Jessica Kiley Date: Sat, 3 Apr 1999 03:23:40 -0700 (MST) Subject: H-COST: Seeking Folkwear Pattern 508 - -Poster: Jessica Kiley Hello. I am seeking a copy of Folkwear pattern 508, 1915 traveling suit, to purchase. If anyone has a copy of this pattern that they would be willing to sell, please e-mail me with your price and other information. Thanks. Jessica Kiley jkiley@up.edu _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ End of h-costume-digest V4 #256 ******************************* _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME-DIGEST From ???@??? Mon Apr 12 09:28:09 1999 Received: from mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE (mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE [130.149.4.14]) by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA11358 for ; Sun, 4 Apr 1999 15:35:16 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from mail.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.15]) by mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10Tn3T-0000BB-00; Sun, 4 Apr 1999 15:35:15 +0200 Received: from coal.bg.tu-berlin.de by mail.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Sun, 4 Apr 1999 15:35:14 +0200 Received: from mail.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.15]) by mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10Tn3P-0000B7-00; Sun, 4 Apr 1999 15:35:11 +0200 Received: from tubkom.prz.tu-berlin.de by mail.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Sun, 4 Apr 1999 15:35:09 +0200 Received: from mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE (mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE [130.149.4.14]) by tubkom.prz.tu-berlin.de (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA12063 for ; Sun, 4 Apr 1999 15:33:23 +0200 (MESZ) Received: from mail.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.15]) by mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10Tn3J-0000B3-00; Sun, 4 Apr 1999 15:35:05 +0200 Received: from server.indra.com by mail.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Sun, 4 Apr 1999 15:35:03 +0200 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.8.5/) with ESMTP id HAA09576; Sun, 4 Apr 1999 07:45:59 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id HAA02101 for h-costume-digest-outgoing; Sun, 4 Apr 1999 07:33:26 -0600 (MDT) Date: Sun, 4 Apr 1999 07:33:26 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199904041333.HAA02101@indra.com> From: owner-h-costume-digest@indra.com To: h-costume-digest@indra.com Subject: h-costume-digest V4 #257 Reply-To: h-costume-digest@indra.com Errors-To: owner-h-costume-digest@indra.com Precedence: bulk h-costume-digest Sunday, 4 April 1999 Volume 04 : Number 257 In this issue: H-COST: Re: Elizabethn Collar Search Re: H-COST: Juan de Alcega RE: H-COST: Alternative to grommets/eyelets Re: H-COST: Juan de Alcega H-COST: Fw: [atyc] ATYC A&S (please forward to other lists) Re: H-COST: Pellison question H-COST: Re: velvet Re: H-COST: Alternative to grommets/eyelets Re: H-COST: Re: film/costume/Rob Roy Re: H-COST: Re: velvet H-COST: I got some fabric... Re: H-COST: Re: velvet Re: H-COST: Re: velvet H-COST: Thoughts on costume books ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: MzScahlett@aol.com Date: Sat, 3 Apr 1999 03:26:44 -0700 (MST) Subject: H-COST: Re: Elizabethn Collar Search - -Poster: MzScahlett@aol.com I've been referred to the SCA, where I am told there are merchants who specialize in constructing both collars and the pieces that make them up. Rather than subscribe to an SCA list for a single request, perhaps one of you who is already involved in the SCA would be kind enough to forward my request on to the list. To reiterate: I'm looking for a source for the pieces to make up, or the made-up collars themselves. They are the large pieces of jewelry worn by men over their clothing, of varying stations during the late 16th Century and into the 17th. I do not need a particular "garter" - just a nice piece of faux men's jewelry. angil e:mail "MzScahlett@aol.com" Angela F. Lazear Costumes & Custom Clothing "Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds" Albert Einstein _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "John Page" Date: Sat, 3 Apr 1999 10:43:35 -0500 Subject: Re: H-COST: Juan de Alcega - -Poster: "John Page" Alcega should be available from: Quite Specific Media Group, Ltd. Attn: Ralph Pine 260 Fifth Avenue, New York, NY 10001 email: rpine@quitespecificmedia.com starting in the next week or two. They don't have the book in stock yet. - ---------- _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Hope H. Dunlap" Date: Sat, 3 Apr 1999 09:59:19 -0500 Subject: RE: H-COST: Alternative to grommets/eyelets - -Poster: "Hope H. Dunlap" These are tiny brass lacing rings sewn on the surface edges of the front closure of the garment. They can also be sewn on the inside and the edges laced lightly closed for a hidden closure. I believe grommets showed up in clothing starting in the 19th century. Hope H. Dunlap - -----Original Message----- From: owner-h-costume@indra.com [mailto:owner-h-costume@indra.com]On Behalf Of Franchesca Havas Sent: Saturday, April 03, 1999 4:39 AM To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: H-COST: Alternative to grommets/eyelets - -Poster: "Franchesca Havas" http://www.kfki.hu/~arthp/art/l/leonardo/painting/portrait/g inevra.jpg Sincerely, F. Havas Dallas, Texas ____________________________________________________________ _____ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: CONNECT@aol.com Date: Sat, 3 Apr 1999 12:35:31 EST Subject: Re: H-COST: Juan de Alcega - -Poster: CONNECT@aol.com In a message dated 4/3/99 10:31:43 AM, kdp@tiac.net writes: << Alcega should be available from: Quite Specific Media Group, Ltd. Attn: Ralph Pine 260 Fifth Avenue, New York, NY 10001 email: rpine@quitespecificmedia.com starting in the next week or two. They don't have the book in stock yet. >> Could someone be so kind as to post the ISBN number for me. Thank you very much. Yours, Pattie Rayl _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Franchesca Havas" Date: Sat, 3 Apr 1999 11:37:58 -0600 Subject: H-COST: Fw: [atyc] ATYC A&S (please forward to other lists) - -Poster: "Franchesca Havas" Sincerely, F. Havas Dallas, Texas - -----Original Message----- From: Fopdejour1@aol.com To: atyc Date: Friday, April 02, 1999 3:42 PM Subject: [atyc] ATYC A&S (please forward to other lists) :PLEASE FORWARD TO OTHER LISTS!!!!!!! : :Announcing the Ansteorran 20th Year Celebration Arts and Sciences :Competitions! : :There are to be two separate competitions at Ansteorra's Twentieth Year :Celebration, Twentieth Year Artisan, and Twentieth Year Laurel. Included in :the Twentieth Year Artisan competition are several sub-competitions sponsored :by different individuals. : :1. The 20th year Artisan......single Item entry (w/ documentation of :course!!!) : :sub-competitions: : : •A. A subtlety competition....documentation not required but :recommended. : : •B. A glass arts competition will be sponsored by Mistress Teleri :ferch Pawl. : Entries may fall into one of three categories: : •Hot/warm glass (including flameworked, blown, and fused :glass, as well as true glass enamels), : •cold glass (such as stained, etched, and engraved glass), : •and glass research papers. Original works using :well-documented period styles and technologies will be most :favored. : Contact Mistress Teleri at esmitman@ghg.net for more information. : : •C. There will be a competition for the best Greek, Roman, or :Byzantine entry sponsored by Mistress Xene. : :2. 20th Year Laurels' Tourney. The Laurels will be the ones competing, and :the populace will get the chance to judge the Laurels. : :The suggested requirements to enter: : : •along with the entered item, : •they can display an early (pre- Laurel) piece. : : : :The sub-competitions are a part of the 20th Year Artisan competition. :Artisans wishing to participate in any of the sub-competitions need to :specify that they are wishing to do so at sign in. : :Set up for the 20th year artisan and the 20th year Laurel competition will :begin at 8 am Friday. They all will run simultaneously on Friday until 5ish. : :There will be a light luncheon provided by the Barony of Bordermarch for :those Laurels who will donate their time to judge the A&S competition. : :If there are any groups wishing to donate a prize, or an individual wishing :to sponsor a competition see the information below for a contact. : :For more information please contact: :Ld. Charles Pierre de Bourbon :Charles Burke 409-721-5133 :fopdejour1@aol.com :Deputy Kingdom MoAS ~ ATYC : :(please visit the 20th year website at http://www.ansteorra.org/20thyr/) : :REMEMBER TO PRE-REGISTER FOR ATYC!!!!!!!!!! : :Twenty years of blood, sweat, tears, fun, family, and friends. Here's to Twenty more! : _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Jean Waddie Date: Sat, 3 Apr 1999 19:13:20 +0100 Subject: Re: H-COST: Pellison question - -Poster: Jean Waddie In message <3703CD99.FA34376E@postoffice.worldnet.att.net>, Kevin and Carol writes > >-Poster: Kevin and Carol > >Hello list. > >I am searching for information/documentation on a garment called a >pellison. My costume books do nothing more than mention it in passing >as the forerunner of the 18th century Pellise. Is there anyone out >there who can suggest where I might find more information? > >Thank you in advance for your help. > >Carol Brink Francois Boucher describes a pelicon as an "undergarment, without sleeves, made of animal skin sewn between two pieces of cloth". He later says that this, and various other undergarments, evolve into the 15th century pourpoint (if it's not your period, a pourpoint is like a tight waistcoat, worn over the shirt and under the doublet, which hose tie onto). The last mention of the pelicon is 14th century, and the first mention of the pelisse is 1781, so I'm a bit surprised if it was a direct development! I think a pelisse is usually fur lined? so maybe that's the link? Jean - -- Jean Waddie _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: snowfire@mail.snet.net Date: Sat, 03 Apr 1999 15:46:31 -0500 Subject: H-COST: Re: velvet - -Poster: snowfire@mail.snet.net Greetings everyone! I just subscribed to the list, and I have a few garb questions. I wonder if someone could help? 1. As an Anglo - Norman 12th Century persona (i.e. high Saxon) how could I possibly get away with wearing velvet? I love velvet and would dearly love to justify wearing it and still be true to my persona. Do I have to move forward a little in period to do this legitimately, or should I encorporate some Norman somewhere in my background in order to justify my wearing it? 2. I understand wool and linen are the "stock in trade" garb fabrics for Saxons. This seems it would be a bit hot for summer (and Pennsic)? How does one adapt to cope with the heat? Linen and linen? Only wearing one layer? (walking around in just one's chemise seems a bit wrong somehow...?) I want to stay with the Saxon persona if I can, but I guess I could go to a second cooler dressed persona if I have to... Is pink an acceptable colour for a 12th Century Saxon lady? I saw some beautiful pink linen at the fabric store this week, and as I'm very pale, pink suits me well. Just wondering... Elysant P.S. I'm so excited to finally get onto this list! :-) I've been trying to find you for months now! :-) _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Merlyncc@aol.com Date: Sat, 3 Apr 1999 16:24:40 EST Subject: Re: H-COST: Alternative to grommets/eyelets - -Poster: Merlyncc@aol.com In a message dated 4/1/99 10:21:56 PM Central Standard Time, Tigershado@aol.com writes: > I seem to remember a message not to long ago about an alternative to > grommets/eyelets for lacing. Something about the lacing going through pieces > > attached to the clothing rather through holes. Norsk Engros USA, Inc. has a great variety of Norwegian pewter lacing eyelets and clasps. Their US/Canadian toll free number is 1-800-553-0014 and their fax is 1-800-667-7501. I don't have their mailing address handy, but I can provide it if needed. One great thing about their offerings is that even the clasp styles can be ordered as all eyelets, so there are about 20 styles to choose from, in sevaral sizes. They also have cloak-sized pewter clasps and pewter buttons. Since I have a costume business, I purchase them wholesale in bags of 25 pairs, but they may well sell to individuals in that quantity, or maybe even smaller quantities. It's certainly worth checking them out! Priscilla Schmitz www.faire.net/merlyncc _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Lisa R." Date: Sat, 03 Apr 1999 16:36:19 -0500 Subject: Re: H-COST: Re: film/costume/Rob Roy - -Poster: "Lisa R." > I was able to find 2 kilts from Rob Roy for $50 > Bill--- Do you mean $500? That's what they're priced at on the web site. - ---Deb Rand _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Susan Carroll-Clark" Date: Sat, 3 Apr 1999 17:06:53 -0500 Subject: Re: H-COST: Re: velvet - -Poster: "Susan Carroll-Clark" Greetings! >2. I understand wool and linen are the "stock in trade" garb fabrics for >Saxons. This seems it would be a bit hot for summer (and Pennsic)? How >does one adapt to cope with the heat? Linen and linen? Only wearing one >layer? (walking around in just one's chemise seems a bit wrong somehow...?) Don't believe the propaganda--wool is a lot cooler than quite a few other fabrics for summer wear, because it breathes. I've worn wool at Pennsic. I think the trick is not to cut the garments too tightly, and to look for the lighter-weight woolens, rather than the coat-type fabrics. But you could probably do just linen if you didn't want to push it :-) >Is pink an acceptable colour for a 12th Century Saxon lady? I saw some >beautiful pink linen at the fabric store this week, and as I'm very pale, >pink suits me well. Just wondering... Pink itself is fine. Pink linen--depends on the colour of pink, because linen can be difficult to dye a dark colour (that is, a dark colour which isn't fugitive) using period techniques. You'd probably be OK with pale pink. Now, if you're talking wool--a friend of mine has been spinning some lichen dyed wool that is exactly the colour I'd describe as "shocking pink." Susan Carroll-Clark _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Sara J. Davitt" Date: Sat, 3 Apr 1999 21:56:22 -0600 (CST) Subject: H-COST: I got some fabric... - -Poster: "Sara J. Davitt" OK.. so here's the deal... I am a painter/printmaker, and I had a briliant idea. i was going to creat this room, onto which was printed my images, so that they would surround you, and be transperant etc. oh my vision was lovely. So I ran myself down to Chicago, and bought many many (25) yards of the most beautiful (and with an incredibly sexy hand to it) orange chiffon Sari Material. It has a simple shiney Orange border on the salvage. I also bought some scraps. I went back and began printing on the scraps. I would lay them on the table, and i was SO excited, and i began experienting with it. They were so pretty. So I wake up the next morning, and actually consider them in installation (up against a window) AND all my hard printed work, all but disapeared!... so, In short, this is Not going to work, and I have 25 yards of the sexiest chiffon I have ever felt on in hands, and nothing to use it for that requires such yardage. (though I will probably make a nice little sundress) --though it would make a perfect top layer for a Double layer Duvet... The big question is... does anyone need this sort of fabric? (or would anyone want to add it to their fabric stash?) I paid about 110$ for the whole lot of it, and I'd even chip in the postage (unless you want me to cut it down) Thanks for listening, and I hope one of you could use some of it! Sarahj **2Y's**UR**2Y's**UB**IC**UR**2Y's**4Me** _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: snowfire@mail.snet.net Date: Sat, 03 Apr 1999 22:42:20 -0500 Subject: Re: H-COST: Re: velvet - -Poster: snowfire@mail.snet.net Thank you m'lady for your kind response to my questions. I think I'll take a woollen over-dress with me then, and a cloak. But I think I'll probably fo linen/linen or gauze. Gauze was not something I'd considered! >Pink itself is fine. Pink linen--depends on the colour of pink, because >linen can be difficult to dye a dark colour (that is, a dark colour which >isn't fugitive) using period techniques. You'd probably be OK with pale >pink. This was a pale-ish pink. The colour caught my attention. They also had sky blue and lemon. Both of those colours looked a bit too chalky though. I thought they'd be too modern! But the pink was nice. Good! That's going to be my next project then! Can't wait! BTW how should one wash linen? Does it shrink? Even if pre-washed? Full of questions today! Elysant Now, if you're talking wool--a friend of mine has been spinning some >lichen dyed wool that is exactly the colour I'd describe as "shocking pink." > >Susan Carroll-Clark > > _________________________________________________________________ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME > > _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Andrea Gideon" Date: Sun, 4 Apr 1999 07:40:00 -0700 Subject: Re: H-COST: Re: velvet - -Poster: "Andrea Gideon" >BTW how should one wash linen? Does it shrink? Even if pre-washed? > >Full of questions today! > >Elysant What I always do is wash in hot and dry on the hottest setting before cutting, then wash the finished garment in cold and dry on delicate. I usually have no shrinkage this way. Andrea _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "BlackCat =^..^=" Date: Sun, 04 Apr 1999 06:30:55 -0700 Subject: H-COST: Thoughts on costume books - -Poster: "BlackCat =^..^=" I have the opportunity to get my paws on the following books, any opinions? Peasant Costume Europe. by K. Mann A Pictorial History Of Costume (Pepin) - --Chris _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ End of h-costume-digest V4 #257 ******************************* _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME-DIGEST From ???@??? Mon Apr 12 09:28:09 1999 Received: from mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE (mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE [130.149.4.14]) by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA12861 for ; Mon, 5 Apr 1999 01:31:37 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from mail.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.15]) by mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10TwMa-0007BA-00; Mon, 5 Apr 1999 01:31:36 +0200 Received: from coal.bg.tu-berlin.de by mail.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Mon, 5 Apr 1999 01:31:35 +0200 Received: from mail.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.15]) by mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10TwMW-0007B8-00; Mon, 5 Apr 1999 01:31:32 +0200 Received: from tubkom.prz.tu-berlin.de by mail.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Mon, 5 Apr 1999 01:31:28 +0200 Received: from mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE (mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE [130.149.4.14]) by tubkom.prz.tu-berlin.de (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA14103 for ; Mon, 5 Apr 1999 01:29:42 +0200 (MESZ) Received: from mail.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.15]) by mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10TwMP-0007B6-00; Mon, 5 Apr 1999 01:31:25 +0200 Received: from server.indra.com by mail.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Mon, 5 Apr 1999 01:31:23 +0200 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.8.5/) with ESMTP id RAA05459; Sun, 4 Apr 1999 17:43:55 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id RAA17384 for h-costume-digest-outgoing; Sun, 4 Apr 1999 17:29:49 -0600 (MDT) Date: Sun, 4 Apr 1999 17:29:49 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199904042329.RAA17384@indra.com> From: owner-h-costume-digest@indra.com To: h-costume-digest@indra.com Subject: h-costume-digest V4 #258 Reply-To: h-costume-digest@indra.com Errors-To: owner-h-costume-digest@indra.com Precedence: bulk h-costume-digest Sunday, 4 April 1999 Volume 04 : Number 258 In this issue: H-COST: Thoughts on costume books RE: H-COST: I got some fabric... Re: H-COST: Pellison question Re: H-COST: Ghita? Re: H-COST: Re: velvet H-COST: Publisher rant (warning: long) Re: H-COST: Publisher rant (warning: long) Re: H-COST: Pellison question H-COST: Published pattern drafts Re: H-COST: Re: velvet Re: H-COST: Published pattern drafts H-COST: New 18th clothing book ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "BlackCat =^..^=" Date: Sun, 04 Apr 1999 06:31:52 -0700 Subject: H-COST: Thoughts on costume books - -Poster: "BlackCat =^..^=" I have the opportunity to get my paws on the following books, any opinions? Peasant Costume Europe. by K. Mann A Pictorial History Of Costume (Pepin) - --Chris _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Hope H. Dunlap" Date: Sun, 4 Apr 1999 12:50:03 -0400 Subject: RE: H-COST: I got some fabric... - -Poster: "Hope H. Dunlap" Before you throw away your wonderful initial concept so hastily, it seems like there must be a technical reason that the printing disappeared, and also a technical solution. Sounds like just the wrong technique/paint/ink/whatever. There is nothing inherently impossible about printing on chiffon. Printing a light color on a dark one frequently requires two passes. So if you were printing a light color onto the orange, it's not a failure, you're just half-way there. And sometimes a little colored or gilt dust sprinkled in te wet paint can give the printed work the sheen and body it needs to stand up and stand out. Do some tests on scraps before printing the whole yardage again. Work at the test pieces until you get it right, and then apply your methodology to the whole yardage. Hang in there! Technical assistance is available from books, friends, and commercial sources such as the help lines at Dharma Trading Co., toll-free telephone (800) 452-5227 and www.darmatrading.com and address Box 150916 San Rafael, CA 94915. Hope H. Dunlap - -----Original Message----- From: owner-h-costume@indra.com [mailto:owner-h-costume@indra.com]On Behalf Of Sara J. Davitt Sent: Saturday, April 03, 1999 10:56 PM To: Historic Costumers! Subject: H-COST: I got some fabric... - -Poster: "Sara J. Davitt" OK.. so here's the deal... I am a painter/printmaker, and I had a briliant idea. i was going to creat this room, onto which was printed my images, so that they would surround you, and be transperant etc. oh my vision was lovely. So I ran myself down to Chicago, and bought many many (25) yards of the most beautiful (and with an incredibly sexy hand to it) orange chiffon Sari Material. It has a simple shiney Orange border on the salvage. I also bought some scraps. I went back and began printing on the scraps. I would lay them on the table, and i was SO excited, and i began experienting with it. They were so pretty. So I wake up the next morning, and actually consider them in installation (up against a window) AND all my hard printed work, all but disapeared!... so, In short, this is Not going to work, and I have 25 yards of the sexiest chiffon I have ever felt on in hands, and nothing to use it for that requires such yardage. (though I will probably make a nice little sundress) --though it would make a perfect top layer for a Double layer Duvet... The big question is... does anyone need this sort of fabric? (or would anyone want to add it to their fabric stash?) I paid about 110$ for the whole lot of it, and I'd even chip in the postage (unless you want me to cut it down) Thanks for listening, and I hope one of you could use some of it! Sarahj **2Y's**UR**2Y's**UB**IC**UR**2Y's**4Me** ____________________________________________________________ _____ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Henk 't Jong" Date: Sun, 4 Apr 1999 19:43:17 +0200 Subject: Re: H-COST: Pellison question - -Poster: "Henk 't Jong" Henk & Pauline 't Jong tScapreel Medieval Advisors Dordrecht, Netherlands Hi, > Carol and Cybthia wrote: > There are a quick one or two mentions of the fur lined pelison in _Fashion > in the Age of the Black Prince_ by Mary Stella Newton. It was listed in > somewardrobe accountings. I warn you, it's not much. However, she is > highly respected and I wouldn't feel as though I hadn't tried if she was > the only documentation I found on it. :) > Cynthia > Stella Newton interprets pelissons as short silk/sendal capes worn with fur on the outside. This sounds a bit like the fur hoods worn by canons during their services in the cold churches of which she gives a picture on page 59, which there is called an 'aumuce', also known as 'almuce'. In fact, a 'pelisse' is a pelt or fur, a 'pelisson' is a large fur. These names were used for furlined garments as well, so the pelisson should be a large fur-lined mantle, cloak or coat. There is in fact a very large and costly fur-lined oval cloak with a wide hood and a train, which is worn by queens, high noblewomen and high prelates like cardinals, and which is called 'pelicon' (with the cedile under the c). It was buttoned at the neck, had slits for the arms and was completely closed and very expensively furred with light coloured furs. All costumebooks I own say it's 14th c, but I found it only on early 14th c miniatures and other pictures. These books don't mention the pelicon being worn by high clerics. It appears especially in the Life of Saint Louis in the National Library in Paris, dated ca 1313. This large furlined cloak seems to be typically french, because I can't remember ever having seen it in sources from other countries. > > I am searching for information/documentation on a garment called a > > pellison. My costume books do nothing more than mention it in passing > > as the forerunner of the 18th century Pellise. Is there anyone out > > there who can suggest where I might find more information? > > > > Thank you in advance for your help. > > > > Carol Brink I don't know about it being a forerunner of an 18th c garment, since it disappears from view ca 1350 (although I have always thought that one of the protraits of cardinal Rolin by Jan van Eyk (ca 1435) shows a similar cloak), but large fur-lined have always been worn: houppelandes, tabards, bellcloaks, etc. I guess there is really no more information to give, except that Bucknell and Hamilton-Hill, The evolution of fashion, London, 1967, have a pattern of the pelicon. It takes a lot of cloth and a lot of fur, I warn you. Hope this helps, Henk _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Henk 't Jong" Date: Sun, 4 Apr 1999 19:55:22 +0200 Subject: Re: H-COST: Ghita? - -Poster: "Henk 't Jong" Henk & Pauline 't Jong tScapreel Medieval Advisors Dordrecht, Netherlands Hi list, Cynthia wrote: > Yes, that is it. Excellent. Thanks. Trying to figure out how to make all > those little plates. They were little brass, tin, silver or even gold squares, circles or lozenges, pounced out in carved out moulds. Stella Newton has a picture of one on page 43 for bezants, which were round plates. Henk _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Henk 't Jong" Date: Sun, 4 Apr 1999 19:49:22 +0200 Subject: Re: H-COST: Re: velvet - -Poster: "Henk 't Jong" Henk & Pauline 't Jong tScapreel Medieval Advisors Dordrecht, Netherlands Hi all, Elysant wrote: > 1. As an Anglo - Norman 12th Century persona (i.e. high Saxon) how could I > possibly get away with wearing velvet? No, you won't. There just was no velvet yet, this only arrived since the middle of the 13th c and than only for the super rich. > 2. I understand wool and linen are the "stock in trade" garb fabrics for > Saxons. This seems it would be a bit hot for summer (and Pennsic)? How > does one adapt to cope with the heat? Linen and linen? Only wearing one > layer? (walking around in just one's chemise seems a bit wrong somehow...?) There were hot summers in Saxon England as well; they had to make do with what they had, without giving offence. Light wool and linen was the solution. I have worn medium wool over linen in a 30 degrees C moist atmosphere and was less hot than scantily clad tourists. > > Is pink an acceptable colour for a 12th Century Saxon lady? Yes. Henk _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: lynnx <@mc.net> Date: Sun, 4 Apr 1999 13:08:38 -0600 (MDT) Subject: H-COST: Publisher rant (warning: long) - -Poster: lynnx <@mc.net> ***Zot!!*** Your quotes from "Bill" are almost *word-for-word* the same as what a guy told me on the phone when I called out there! He was nice enough to me, but I gotta agree he was awfully hard on Arnold! I assumed he wasn't expecting that what he told me was going to appear on one of the busiest costume lists Out There, but since he (if it *was* the same guy) doesn't seem to mind who hears it, here's my two bits worth... Whoever I talked to said (Background info): Arnold and Hunnisett knew each other and were friends for quite a while, Arnold even sent 1 or 2 of her early books to Hunnisett for "proofing" /corrections. Later Arnold got p.o.'d at Hunnisett for publishing a book that covered part of what one of Arnold's did. However, when Hunnisett heard Arnold was ill, she took pains to help Arnold, and they were back on good terms when she died. How this relates to the "update" thing: The "Arnold-corrections" work PP has on the shelf is by *Hunnisett*, and she didn't want to offend Arnold's fans by publishing it and maybe have them take it as "dissing" Arnold's work. (Sounds considerate enough to me. He said Hunnisett is a very nice person.) Some other stuff he said, which gave me a rather confused impression of *him*: Like you, Tina, I said I felt bad that Arnold had died, and he said flat-out, "I don't - she was a nuisance!" Then went on to tell me pretty much the same boo boos he told you, but added some stuff that I would think would make *him* a little more sympathetic: First: She (he said) had to sneak a camera into the V&A's "back room" because *her publisher* wouldn't shell out the $$ to use the museum's photos (apparently a pricey proposition) for research. So she took "bad" photos and derived mismeasurements from them. This pissed off the V&A, so they wouldn't let her back there any more. (Doesn't this merit a bit of sympathy for Arnold, who *IF* it's true, was jammed between a rock and a hard place?) BTW, I have all 3 of Arnold's Englishwomen's Dress books, and the Tudor-era one has the most spectacular photos I have *ever* seen - is this guy trying to claim those are "bad" or "used without permission"? ***CYA NOTE: None of this reflect *my* opinion of Arnold's publisher, since I haven't met them. END CYA NOTE*** He also seemed critical of the fact that Arnold *didn't* "update" the measurements she took of the garments for the "typical" modern build; she kept the proportions etc. pretty close to the actual garments. His claim was that readers of her books wouldn't all understand this and would complain because the garments made using her info didn't fit. (Like this is supposed to be a problem to Player's? How??) ***THE RUMOR MILL CRANKS UP*** Disclaimer: It was 11PM here when I talked to the guy at Player's, so *apply salt liberally to this section!* Re upcoming books, I *think* (Dontquotemeonthis) Hunnisett may be planning on one or 2 more books, I also got the impression that reenactors have expressed annoyance with Hunnisett's patterns because she comes from a *theatrical* point of view, and (if I got this right) she will be considering the reenactor/ historical research crowd more in the next thing she comes out with. ***THE RUMOR MILL SHUTS DOWN*** One conclusion I can draw from all this: Whoever is talking this line about Arnold etc. should be put back in the back room editing or whatever, and let *someone else* do PR for Player's, or they're gonna get some very bad press! And Now, Back To Our Regularly Scheduled Topic, Heather _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Lavolta Press Date: Sun, 04 Apr 1999 13:06:20 -0700 Subject: Re: H-COST: Publisher rant (warning: long) - -Poster: Lavolta Press > > > He also seemed critical of the fact that Arnold *didn't* "update" the > measurements she took of the garments for the "typical" modern build; > she kept the proportions etc. pretty close to the actual garments. His > claim was that readers of her books wouldn't all understand this and > would complain because the garments made using her info didn't fit. > (Like this is supposed to be a problem to Player's? How??) If you publish patterns in one size (which in many cases is the only practical way to publish them), whether they are in one modern size or one original size, either way most people will have to alter them. IMO he should just have said, "I know some publishers do it differently, but our policy is to publish all women's patterns in modern size 10" (or whatever they use). What is Players Press publishing anyway, that has everybody calling them? Fran - ---------------------------------------------- Visit our web sites! Books on historic costume and vintage clothes http://www.best.com/~lavolta/index.htm Vintage and historic dance http://www.best.com/~lavolta/dance/index.htm _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Gerekr@aol.com Date: Sun, 4 Apr 1999 17:12:09 EDT Subject: Re: H-COST: Pellison question - -Poster: Gerekr@aol.com >I am searching for information/documentation on a garment called a >pellison. My costume books do nothing more than mention it in passing >as the forerunner of the 18th century Pellise. Norris is what's closest to the computer, 8-). P. 97-98 of v.2 "The only women's garment to be noticed in this reign is an over-robe called the PELICE or PELICON (with circunflex on C) ..." from period Richard I: a fur lined over-garment ("supertunic"), just-below-knee length and roomy elbow-length sleeves, not usually belted (but when there are belts, worn at the hip). He gives "pelice" as Norman French for fur, therefore the name is based on the fur-lined-ness. I like Norris, but others may want to use this as a starting place for more rigorous documentation... Chimene _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Date: Sun, 4 Apr 99 17:29:29 -0400 Subject: H-COST: Published pattern drafts - -Poster: > He also seemed critical of the fact that Arnold *didn't* "update" the > measurements she took of the garments for the "typical" modern build; > she kept the proportions etc. pretty close to the actual garments. His > claim was that readers of her books wouldn't all understand this and > would complain because the garments made using her info didn't fit. > (Like this is supposed to be a problem to Player's? How??) I like the patterns drafted straight off the originals. As the cut is adjusted for size, the patternmaker is adding a bit of her or his own interpretation to the cut. While we frequently discuss matters of how tightly corsets fit, I think we agree that it takes the body away from the "typical" modern build. In many cases, the bustline is raised significantly from the typical! When using Janet Arnold's drafts, I know that I will need to adjust the size. If I bought a pattern in my size, I would also realize that additional fitting is necessary. Other costume makers might think that no further adjustment was necessary in a sized pattern. I don't think Janet Arnold intended her books to make it easy on costume makers. She seems to be sharing her research in a more exact form. Some have mentioned errors, but the information is presented as close to the original as Janet Arnold could get it at the time. We've found her books very valuable in making costumes. Others who could find them useful are those comparing sizes of extant garments, waist to hip or waist to bust ratios, etc. The fabric of that particular garment is described, which is not done as often with sized patterns. Janet Arnold takes us into collections that we may otherwise not reach. There is a new book out with pattern drafts of items in the Chester County Historical Society collection, and another coming out soon of clothing in the DeWitt Wallace (Williamsburg) collection. We're buying these books! -Carol Kocian _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Julie Adams Date: Sun, 4 Apr 1999 15:43:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: H-COST: Re: velvet - -Poster: Julie Adams re: wearing wool in the heat. On several occasions I've found wool gauze or just fine or sheer wool. I suggest you keep an eye out, perhaps you'll come by some eventually. Julie Adams _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Lavolta Press Date: Sun, 04 Apr 1999 16:14:47 -0700 Subject: Re: H-COST: Published pattern drafts - -Poster: Lavolta Press > There is a new book out with pattern drafts of items in the Chester > County Historical Society collection, What is the title and author? > and another coming out soon of > clothing in the DeWitt Wallace (Williamsburg) collection. We're buying > these books! > > - This is Linda Baumgarten's book? Or?? Thanks for any info, Fran - ---------------------------------------------- Visit our web sites! Books on historic costume and vintage clothes http://www.best.com/~lavolta/index.htm Vintage and historic dance http://www.best.com/~lavolta/dance/index.htm _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: ArcadiaCB@aol.com Date: Sun, 4 Apr 1999 19:40:41 EDT Subject: H-COST: New 18th clothing book - -Poster: ArcadiaCB@aol.com The new book on 18th century clothing is "Fitting and Proper: 18th Century Clothing from the Collection of the Chester County Historical Society" by Sharon Ann Burnston ISBN 1-880655-08-X, Spurlock Publishing Co. Inc. Forty measured and gridded garments (mostly women's and mens, but a few children's and accessory pieces), with photos of the originals as well. Another must for everyone's bookshelf. Charlene Bullard _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ End of h-costume-digest V4 #258 ******************************* _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME-DIGEST From ???@??? Mon Apr 12 09:28:12 1999 Received: from mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE (mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE [130.149.4.14]) by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA23085 for ; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 16:36:57 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from mail.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.15]) by mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10UWyG-0006Jg-00; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 16:36:56 +0200 Received: from coal.bg.tu-berlin.de by mail.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Tue, 6 Apr 1999 16:36:52 +0200 Received: from tubkom.prz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.62.9] ident=root) by mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10UWy8-0006JR-00; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 16:36:48 +0200 Received: from mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE (mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE [130.149.4.14]) by tubkom.prz.tu-berlin.de (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA27285 for ; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 16:34:51 +0200 (MESZ) Received: from mail.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.15]) by mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10UWxv-0006JG-01; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 16:36:35 +0200 Received: from server.indra.com by mail.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Tue, 6 Apr 1999 16:35:48 +0200 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.8.5/) with ESMTP id IAA24142; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 08:52:24 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id IAA12107 for h-costume-digest-outgoing; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 08:33:45 -0600 (MDT) Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 08:33:45 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199904061433.IAA12107@indra.com> From: owner-h-costume-digest@indra.com To: h-costume-digest@indra.com Subject: h-costume-digest V4 #259 Reply-To: h-costume-digest@indra.com Errors-To: owner-h-costume-digest@indra.com Precedence: bulk h-costume-digest Tuesday, 6 April 1999 Volume 04 : Number 259 In this issue: Re: H-COST: New 18th clothing book Re: H-COST: Published pattern drafts H-COST: Pelisson again RE: H-COST: Costuming Guilds Re: H-COST: Alternative to grommets/eyelets RE: H-COST: Re: Elizabethn Collar Search H-COST: armor patterns Re: H-COST:Janet Arnold question H-COST: Re: Tartan in VA Re: H-COST:Janet Arnold question Re: H-COST: Greenburg & Hammer H-COST: unsubscribing H-COST: Happiness and hats H-COST: Alcega ISBN ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Lavolta Press Date: Sun, 04 Apr 1999 16:45:22 -0700 Subject: Re: H-COST: New 18th clothing book - -Poster: Lavolta Press > The new book on 18th century clothing is "Fitting and Proper: 18th Century > Clothing from the Collection of the Chester County Historical Society" by > Sharon Ann Burnston ISBN 1-880655-08-X, Spurlock Publishing Co. Inc. Forty > measured and gridded garments (mostly women's and mens, but a few children's > and accessory pieces), with photos of the originals as well. Another must > for everyone's bookshelf. > Charlene Bullard > _________________________________________________________________ > Thanks . . . Amazon.com has just parted me from some more hard-earned $$. Fran - ---------------------------------------------- Visit our web sites! Books on historic costume and vintage clothes http://www.best.com/~lavolta/index.htm Vintage and historic dance http://www.best.com/~lavolta/dance/index.htm _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Date: Sun, 4 Apr 99 22:10:53 -0400 Subject: Re: H-COST: Published pattern drafts - -Poster: I wrote, >> There is a new book out with pattern drafts of items in the Chester >> County Historical Society collection, And Fran asked, >What is the title and author? _Fitting and Proper_, by Sharon Ann Burnston. "18th Century Clothing from the Collection of the Chester County Historical Society". ISBN 1-880655-08-X Price - $55. The publisher is Scurlock of Texarkana, TX. I believe this is the same publisher that did _Tidings from the Eighteenth Century_ by Beth Gilgun, which is in its second edition. >> and another coming out soon of >> clothing in the DeWitt Wallace (Williamsburg) collection. We're buying >> these books! > >This is Linda Baumgarten's book? Or?? Yes, and it's supposed to be available in December. -Carol Kocian _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Kevin and Carol Date: Sun, 04 Apr 1999 20:08:08 -0700 Subject: H-COST: Pelisson again - -Poster: Kevin and Carol - -Poster: "Henk 't Jong" writes: > In fact, a 'pelisse' is a pelt or fur, a 'pelisson' is a large fur. > These names were used for furlined garments as well, so the pelisson > should be a large fur-lined mantle, cloak or coat. There is in fact a > very large and costly fur-lined oval cloak with a wide hood and a > train, which is worn by queens, high noblewomen and high prelates like > cardinals, and which is called 'pelicon' (with the cedile under the > c). It was buttoned at the neck, had slits for the arms and was > completely closed and very expensively furred with light coloured > furs. So what would you call the garment worn by the Duchess of Burgundy in the 15th century painting: Hunting with Falcons at the Court of Phillip the Good? This painting is in Boucher and all the court are in white. It appears that her 'cloak' is cut like a tabard with maybe a yoke? Carol _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Broneske Date: Sun, 4 Apr 1999 23:06:24 -0700 Subject: RE: H-COST: Costuming Guilds - -Poster: Broneske - ------ =_NextPart_000_01BE7EEF.C83124E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'm in Roseville, count me in too! Joan B. - ---------- From: Diana H[SMTP:dch@inreach.com] Sent: Friday, April 02, 1999 11:32 PM To: H-Costume Subject: Re: H-COST: Costuming Guilds - -Poster: Diana H Margo Anderson wrote: > -Poster: Margo Anderson > > At 01:10 PM 4/2/99 -0800, you wrote: > > > >I'm looking for a costuming guild for my mom, who lives in Cameron > Park > >(between Sacramento and Placerville). I went on the ICG web site, > but > >didn't see anything for her area. > there isn't a > guild currently but I am hoping to start one very soon. > > Margo Anderson Dear Margo, I live in a suburb of Sacramento and would love to be involved in a costuming guild also! Would you mind including me in your list when you get things started? Mucho thanks! Diana :~> - -- * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * "There are too many mediocre things in life to deal with.....Love shouldn't be one of them." - --Ione Skye in "Dream for an Insomniac" _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME - ------ =_NextPart_000_01BE7EEF.C83124E0 Content-Type: application/ms-tnef Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 eJ8+IiEGAQaQCAAEAAAAAAABAAEAAQeQBgAIAAAA5AQAAAAAAADoAAENgAQAAgAAAAIAAgABBJAG ABwBAAABAAAADAAAAAMAADADAAAACwAPDgAAAAACAf8PAQAAAEUAAAAAAAAAgSsfpL6jEBmdbgDd AQ9UAgAAAABoLWNvc3R1bWVAaW5kcmEuY29tAFNNVFAAaC1jb3N0dW1lQGluZHJhLmNvbQAAAAAe AAIwAQAAAAUAAABTTVRQAAAAAB4AAzABAAAAFAAAAGgtY29zdHVtZUBpbmRyYS5jb20AAwAVDAEA AAADAP4PBgAAAB4AATABAAAAFgAAACdoLWNvc3R1bWVAaW5kcmEuY29tJwAAAAIBCzABAAAAGQAA AFNNVFA6SC1DT1NUVU1FQElORFJBLkNPTQAAAAADAAA5AAAAAAsAQDoBAAAAAgH2DwEAAAAEAAAA AAAAA3QyAQiABwAYAAAASVBNLk1pY3Jvc29mdCBNYWlsLk5vdGUAMQgBBIABAB0AAABSRTogSC1D T1NUOiBDb3N0dW1pbmcgR3VpbGRzADoJAQWAAwAOAAAAzwcEAAQAFwAGABgAAAATAQEggAMADgAA AM8HBAAEABcABgAGAAAAAQEBCYABACEAAAA0RDZGRjNCQkUxRUFEMjExQTMzQTQ0NDU1MzU0MDAw MAAPBwEDkAYAsAUAABIAAAALACMAAAAAAAMAJgAAAAAACwApAAAAAAADADYAAAAAAEAAOQDgYiBv Kn++AR4AcAABAAAAHQAAAFJFOiBILUNPU1Q6IENvc3R1bWluZyBHdWlsZHMAAAAAAgFxAAEAAAAW AAAAAb5/Km8gu/NvTurhEdKjOkRFU1QAAAAAHgAeDAEAAAAFAAAAU01UUAAAAAAeAB8MAQAAABQA AAB1bmljb3JuQHNvZnRjb20ubmV0AAMABhCQOWqUAwAHEFMDAAAeAAgQAQAAAGUAAABJTUlOUk9T RVZJTExFLENPVU5UTUVJTlRPT0pPQU5CLS0tLS0tLS0tLUZST006RElBTkFIU01UUDpEQ0hASU5S RUFDSENPTVNFTlQ6RlJJREFZLEFQUklMMDIsMTk5OTExOjMyAAAAAAIBCRABAAAALgQAACoEAAAc CAAATFpGdX3HKKb/AAoBDwIVAqQD5AXrAoMAUBMDVAIAY2gKwHNldO4yBgAGwwKDMgPGBxMCg7oz Ew19CoAIzwnZOxX/eDI1NQKACoENsQtgbvBnMTAzFCALChLyDAGCYwBAIEknbSALgAsH8RHwdgMQ bGUsIDUFoHUCMCAHgBsSdG9MbyEKhQqFSm8DkUIGLh0MCvRsaTE4MMEC0WktMTQ0DfAM0LMgMwtZ MTYKoANgdAWQfQVALSJXCochCwwwIdZGnQNhOiNeIdYMgiBEBzAAbmEgSFtTTVToUDpkEbBAC4AW AADQ5GguBaBtXSL/JA0GYA8CMCU/Jksk8GlkYXlNG+BBIdADETAyG+AxRjkuMC4QMTozEiBQZk0o 7yQNVG8rLyZLSOItCFBzdHUHgC7/Kf44dWJqIhExHyZLUmXjNfAy8U9TVDXwMxQLgJBnIEd1AxBk cx5f+R9jMzYg1xQiDAEh1gqFPC1QMyEEkDXwJxUgPJUn7T4dDE0KwGdvE3BKbgSBcwIgIHch4jpt HQw+PPhADTwAwEAhQBxkaRYAIiAFoG4ubt8SAD8WRRcTcAVAMC6AGSBBLsEgNC8yLy5BLfYwH8Eb 4HkIYEDsQjBFmOY+GuIVkG9rOPICEAXANydQBaA4tmc5QkpjbXlnHFADcBvgd2hAQB+QdrMHkRsh Q2EHgANgbkHHSlAKwGtIeChiEgB3/wnhBgEFAE1xAjBAQABwS7AaUAtgYwSQG5MpLiCXGtBA4Crx IEDBdGgccHhJQ0dRwSbwAJAiACwxQcdidXRIeERAZG7eJwVAEfAccABweVJQSjb/UmBKkShBHkZC MFJCFgAbENpzVPJhQcdLdGMIcBYAfQIwbEwgU/FRoU1wVjBv/nA48lBRMzAKwFICHHBM8H5yTCBA sESxRS9ADB0MRP8oUD/lU1YKhVGwTNIbEidQTnM1kAhwJvBvZk/Od38IYEuhFZBg4VBRT1AbEXb/ BvBM8EuwYRIKhUreB0BAsHohUZBXYwNH0jjhZHJj/wpAREA5ARxkR9EFwB+QMzDvTIFPoUfRCoVn EgBSQTjx1wQgWwMJgD8/LXURsEBAM1JQAHBrcxz9JxQ6fvc/HSLXCoUqcF9xb3J/c435CoUiVFeD VoEcshxQVXH7HFFEQG8FAGOBaoQbIR+Q/mZjgw2wB0BA4FMgKIB4gvZMY2EKhXNMoGMRVPJj0Y9b YQqFYcJSUW0uIm73IklbYlNreRxzIkTvKEEbAEpzA6BJAIADcAMA5wDQe4YdDCBff9+A74H//4Lb eoYw8EngKFBjclWwBCD/AMADEDjyaPIb4BHwUJGFQutawgDAagWwZANwRCBnYT9QACiSeoZ4QlJD B4FzYQFqMCBVTlNVQlMgQ1JJQkU4BVVNvkU5nzquGjU8HRUhAI6wAAADABAQAAAAAAMAERAAAAAA QAAHMGBShGQqf74BQAAIMGBShGQqf74BHgA9AAEAAAAFAAAAUkU6IAAAAABxrA== - ------ =_NextPart_000_01BE7EEF.C83124E0-- _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Merlyncc@aol.com Date: Mon, 5 Apr 1999 10:20:18 EDT Subject: Re: H-COST: Alternative to grommets/eyelets - -Poster: Merlyncc@aol.com Update on source for lacing eyelets: I checked with Norsk Engros (which I should have done before posting!) about quantity orders. They only sell wholesale, which means you can order only if you have a business and a resale tax permit from your state. Sorry! If anyone who doesn't have a resale number needs at least 25 pairs, let me know and I can order them for you. Priscilla Schmitz www.faire.net/merlyncc _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Steven Heeter" Date: Mon, 5 Apr 1999 09:28:48 -0600 (MDT) Subject: RE: H-COST: Re: Elizabethn Collar Search - -Poster: "Steven Heeter" Milady, If I am not mistaken you are looking for a piece that is similar in construction to a plaque belt. That is to say a piece constructed of plaqards of metal joined by rings (of a sort). Usually the individual plaques would have relief designs worked into them. Am I correct? If so, please tell me what motif you seek and perhaps we can help one another. I am an armorer and jeweler and am currently working on a belt peice. Stephan deCaerleon aka Steve Heeter _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Franchesca Havas" Date: Mon, 5 Apr 1999 12:49:11 -0500 Subject: H-COST: armor patterns - -Poster: "Franchesca Havas" I am in search of leather armor patterns that are online. If you know of any please send them my way! :) Sincerely, F. Havas Dallas, Texas _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Jessica Wilbur" Date: Mon, 5 Apr 1999 16:19:01 -0400 Subject: Re: H-COST:Janet Arnold question - -Poster: "Jessica Wilbur" > > -Poster: lynnx <@mc.net> > > BTW, I have all 3 of Arnold's Englishwomen's Dress books, and the > Tudor-era one has the most spectacular photos I have *ever* seen - Which book is this? I did not know she had done any work on Tudor clothing. Please enlighten me! Thanks! - --Jessica _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "David S. Mallinak" Date: Mon, 05 Apr 1999 23:24:59 -0700 Subject: H-COST: Re: Tartan in VA - -Poster: "David S. Mallinak" kathleen@niagara.com wrote: > First...how wide will the fabric have to be for someone about 6'5" to 6'6"? As wide as can get. but what ever will cover him from his head to his knee, I have found to work well. > Second...can anyone let me know the best places to find good deals on > suitable fabric in his area? He lives in VA near Washington. I don't > particularly care about the sect, as long as it isn't something truly > obvious like Royal Stewart. Blues and heathery tones would look great with > his colouring, but again...not that picky. The best time to get wool tartan fabric is late winter and early spring. At this time the fabric stores are getting rid of the winter fabric (wool) to make room for spring/summer fabric > Third...any ideas on footwear? He loves to go barefoot, but if it rains... For 16th/17th century Highland Scots a American Indian mocassin with the part that is loose either cut off or tied up over the ankle is a resonable looking Highland shoe. A pampotte, a Scottish 18th footwear can be make by taking a piece of leather 3 to 4 inches larger than the foot, put holes around the edge and then lace up to fit. > Fourth...accessories. I figure a plaid pin, a belt, dagger, a version of a > sporran for practical reasons, maybe a bonnet if he'll wear one...anything else? A man would not use a kilt pin, he would use a strong straight pin to hold up the material. A dirk (dagger), a sporran ( a simple pouch with a flap over the opening), and bonnet are OK I have replyed to you directly as my PC is recently recovered from a disk crash. Your most obediant servant David S Mallinak matchlck@erol.com Adjunt MacLean's Company (serving in Scotland for King Charles in 1645) _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Catherine de Calais" Date: Mon, 05 Apr 1999 21:22:27 PDT Subject: Re: H-COST:Janet Arnold question - -Poster: "Catherine de Calais" I think the book she is referring to is "Patterns of Fashion" c1560-1620 Tudor/Elizabethan era. Catherine >From: "Jessica Wilbur" >Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com >To: h-costume@indra.com >Subject: Re: H-COST:Janet Arnold question >Date: Mon, 5 Apr 1999 16:19:01 -0400 >From owner-h-costume@indra.com Mon Apr 05 14:23:06 1999 >Received: from [204.144.142.2] by hotmail.com (1.5) with SMTP id MHotMailB8D274B700F2D1B98320CC908E020FA90; Mon Apr 05 14:23:06 1999 >Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1])by server.indra.com (8.8.5/) with ESMTP id PAA10997;Mon, 5 Apr 1999 15:33:57 -0600 (MDT) >Received: (from majordom@localhost)by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id OAA07302for h-costume-outgoing; Mon, 5 Apr 1999 14:18:57 -0600 (MDT) >Received: from smtp1-alterdial.uu.net (alterdial.UU.NET [192.48.96.22])by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id OAA07153for ; Mon, 5 Apr 1999 14:18:35 -0600 (MDT) >Received: from jwilbur1 by smtp1-alterdial.uu.net with SMTP(peer crosschecked as: 119.pcpool89.corp.us.uu.net [153.39.89.119])id QQgjrd29496for ; Mon, 5 Apr 1999 20:18:35 GMT >Message-Id: >Priority: normal >In-reply-to: <199904041908.NAA25017@indra.com> >X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.00 beta 6) >Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com >Precedence: bulk > >-Poster: "Jessica Wilbur" > > > >> >> -Poster: lynnx <@mc.net> > >> >> BTW, I have all 3 of Arnold's Englishwomen's Dress books, and the >> Tudor-era one has the most spectacular photos I have *ever* seen - > > >Which book is this? I did not know she had done any work on Tudor clothing. Please >enlighten me! > >Thanks! >--Jessica > _________________________________________________________________ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: The Purple Elephant Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 15:37:19 +0930 (CST) Subject: Re: H-COST: Greenburg & Hammer - -Poster: The Purple Elephant On Thu, 1 Apr 1999, Franchesca Havas wrote: > > -Poster: "Franchesca Havas" > > >From http://www.dnaco.net/~aleed/corsets/mailorder.html > > Greenberg and Hammer > 24 W. 57th St. > NY, New York > 212-246-2835. > 72437,674@compuserve.com > steel and plastic boning. Their boning is the cheapest I've found anywhere. > Do they do international mail order? - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Claire F. Clarke "What is this world if, full of care, Physicist, writer, We have no time to stand and stare?" and non environmentally Robert Louis Stevenson friendly substance. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: kathleen@niagara.com Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 07:01:08 -0400 (EDT) Subject: H-COST: unsubscribing - -Poster: kathleen@niagara.com Due to extraordinary circumstances, I will be unsubscribing for a while. Have fun and I will see you when my life calms down. Kathleen/Catriona () _/)(\_ "Tehee!" quod she, and clapte the wyndow to /~~\ /____\ _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Sarah Toney" Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 09:52:27 -0400 Subject: H-COST: Happiness and hats - -Poster: "Sarah Toney" 2 things... first, I ordered a 1920's pattern from Lark Books last week, and it was waiting for me when I got home yesterday... and this was normal shipping! I am very pleased! Just had to say that after all the "difficulties" we have been bringing up with other places. Secondly, and for anyone who doesn't care, sorry, but there is a beautiful "Swashbucklers" hat for sale on e-bay if anyone is interested. It's a nice addition to a pirate costume, though most likely not accurate for any real historical sense. It's still fun... It's at http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=87607172. Sarah _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: KATHARINE WHISLER Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 09:31:00 -0500 Subject: H-COST: Alcega ISBN - -Poster: KATHARINE WHISLER Here's the info on the Alcega book from U.K. "Books In Print": Tailor's Pattern Book, 1589: Libro de Geometria, Pratica y Traca DATE ENTERED: 990315 STATUS IN FILE: Changed Alcega Juan de Pain J.(Tr.); Bainton C.(Tr.); Nevinson J.L. (Ed.) R Bean Feb 1999 28cm.254. 137ill. n.e. BINDING: Paperback PRICE: L25.00 ISBN: 0903585316 PRINT STATUS: In Print COUNTRY OF PUBLICATION: England In English & Spanish. Tr.fr.Spanish J.Pain & C.Bainton. Ed.J.L.Nevinson SUBJECT HEADINGS: Customs, Costumes, Folklore Costume That should be enough information! - --K _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ End of h-costume-digest V4 #259 ******************************* _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME-DIGEST From ???@??? Mon Apr 12 09:28:13 1999 Received: from mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE (mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE [130.149.4.14]) by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA24440 for ; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 20:36:41 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from mail.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.15]) by mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10UaiF-0002lp-00; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 20:36:39 +0200 Received: from coal.bg.tu-berlin.de by mail.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Tue, 6 Apr 1999 20:36:38 +0200 Received: from tubkom.prz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.62.9] ident=root) by mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10UaiA-0002lX-00; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 20:36:34 +0200 Received: from mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE (mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE [130.149.4.14]) by tubkom.prz.tu-berlin.de (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA29001 for ; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 20:34:46 +0200 (MESZ) Received: from mail.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.15]) by mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10Uai7-0002lV-00; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 20:36:31 +0200 Received: from server.indra.com by mail.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Tue, 6 Apr 1999 20:35:54 +0200 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.8.5/) with ESMTP id MAA02797; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 12:52:22 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id MAA26473 for h-costume-digest-outgoing; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 12:33:15 -0600 (MDT) Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 12:33:15 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199904061833.MAA26473@indra.com> From: owner-h-costume-digest@indra.com To: h-costume-digest@indra.com Subject: h-costume-digest V4 #260 Reply-To: h-costume-digest@indra.com Errors-To: owner-h-costume-digest@indra.com Precedence: bulk h-costume-digest Tuesday, 6 April 1999 Volume 04 : Number 260 In this issue: Re: H-COST: Alcega ISBN H-COST: OT cross-stitch software request H-COST: Medieval Tailor's Assistant Re: H-COST:Janet Arnold question H-COST: Busk suppliers - US Re: H-COST: Busk suppliers - US Re: H-COST: Pelisson again Re: H-COST: Re: corded petticoat Re: H-COST:corded petticoat Re: H-COST: 19th century men's undershirts Re: H-COST: Re: corded petticoat H-COST: late-period French women's clothing sources? Re: H-COST: OT cross-stitch software request ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Hope A. Greenberg" Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 11:05:32 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: H-COST: Alcega ISBN - -Poster: "Hope A. Greenberg" For any of you who have or have seen the Alcega book, can you tell us what kinds or garments are represented. From previous posts and from Arnold's books there seem to be at least three men's loose gowns and a lady's farthingale. What else is there? Mostly men's or some other women's? And what dates does it cover? Many thanks! - - Hope - ----------------- Hope.Greenberg@uvm.edu, U of Vermont _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: cnevin@caci.co.uk Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 16:38:53 +0100 Subject: H-COST: OT cross-stitch software request - -Poster: cnevin@caci.co.uk Hi, sorry for this slightly OT question. One of my workmate's wives is looking for a cross stitch software program and I said I would help by asking around. She has seen the CrossStitch Pro software and likes the top end program but it's too expensive at GBP 400. Does anyone have any alternatives? She mostly wants it for graphing out cross-stitch and maybe some lace. Her 'wants' were - - mirror and maybe rotational functions - - easily usable graph plotting - - easy access to a full colour chart, pref. either Anchor or DMC - - having already built motifs is optional If anyone is on an embroidery list they could also ask, I would really appreciate it. Please email me off list. Thanks a lot. Regards, Tina thorngrove@geocities.com _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: cnevin@caci.co.uk Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 16:39:57 +0100 Subject: H-COST: Medieval Tailor's Assistant - -Poster: cnevin@caci.co.uk >>I hope this helps! (Note, Quite Specific Media Group is the same outfit that publishes Arnold's "Patterns of Fashion" series.) Mr. Bean told me by e-mail that his company is planning a new book to be called the "Medieval Tailor's Assistant." It will be interesting to see if it is any better than Hunnisett's book. >>Katharine Whisler I saw the planned section on men's jerkins for the "Medieval Tailor's Assistant", as well as meeting Ruth and Nigel Bean - both lovely people, and one of the NICE things that happened to me that weekend . It's pretty much going to be aimed at the re-enactors/recreationist market, serious research with patterns (usable even by the sewing-impaired such as myself). I was very impressed, and can't wait till it comes out. I think it'll an invaluable aid for a great many of us. Regards, Tina _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Jessica Wilbur" Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 11:50:16 -0400 Subject: Re: H-COST:Janet Arnold question - -Poster: "Jessica Wilbur" Oh, Ok... I have that one, I just don't think of it as Tudor, since it doesn't cover anything before the reign of Elizabeth I. YMMV. - --Jessica > > -Poster: "Catherine de Calais" > > I think the book she is referring to is > > "Patterns of Fashion" c1560-1620 Tudor/Elizabethan era. > > Catherine > > >From: "Jessica Wilbur" > >Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com > >To: h-costume@indra.com > >Subject: Re: H-COST:Janet Arnold question > >Date: Mon, 5 Apr 1999 16:19:01 -0400 > >From owner-h-costume@indra.com Mon Apr 05 14:23:06 1999 > >Received: from [204.144.142.2] by hotmail.com (1.5) with SMTP id > MHotMailB8D274B700F2D1B98320CC908E020FA90; Mon Apr 05 14:23:06 1999 > >Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1])by > server.indra.com (8.8.5/) with ESMTP id PAA10997;Mon, 5 Apr 1999 > 15:33:57 -0600 (MDT) > >Received: (from majordom@localhost)by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id > OAA07302for h-costume-outgoing; Mon, 5 Apr 1999 14:18:57 -0600 (MDT) > >Received: from smtp1-alterdial.uu.net (alterdial.UU.NET > [192.48.96.22])by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id > OAA07153for ; Mon, 5 Apr 1999 14:18:35 -0600 (MDT) > >Received: from jwilbur1 by smtp1-alterdial.uu.net with SMTP(peer > crosschecked as: 119.pcpool89.corp.us.uu.net [153.39.89.119])id > QQgjrd29496for ; Mon, 5 Apr 1999 20:18:35 GMT > >Message-Id: > >Priority: normal > >In-reply-to: <199904041908.NAA25017@indra.com> > >X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.00 beta 6) > >Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com > >Precedence: bulk > > > >-Poster: "Jessica Wilbur" > > > > > > > >> > >> -Poster: lynnx <@mc.net> > > > >> > >> BTW, I have all 3 of Arnold's Englishwomen's Dress books, and the > >> Tudor-era one has the most spectacular photos I have *ever* seen - > > > > > >Which book is this? I did not know she had done any work on Tudor > clothing. Please > >enlighten me! > > > >Thanks! > >--Jessica > > _________________________________________________________________ > > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME > > > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > _________________________________________________________________ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME > _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Kat & Kent Date: Tue, 06 Apr 1999 11:05:10 -0500 Subject: H-COST: Busk suppliers - US - -Poster: Kat & Kent Okay, I didn't pay any attention the first several rounds and I think the agreement is that Greenburg & Hammer is the cheapest source for boning (the lady I talked to said they're out of the catalog for about two months) but is it also the best source for busks? Kat _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Susannah Eanes" Date: Tue, 06 Apr 1999 10:13:29 PDT Subject: Re: H-COST: Busk suppliers - US - -Poster: "Susannah Eanes" Kat, So far, G&H is my best bet. Saundra Altman may have a few in various sizes left; she stopped carrying them awhile back but last fall I got some smaller ones from her -the front clasp kind you use in ACW & later corsets. Otherwise, Greenberg & Hammer is the one I usually use. I have a catalog; if you want I'd be happy to look up the numbers for you so you can order some. Susannah >From: Kat & Kent >Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com >To: "h-costume-digest@indra.com" >Subject: H-COST: Busk suppliers - US >Date: Tue, 06 Apr 1999 11:05:10 -0500 > > >-Poster: Kat & Kent > >Okay, I didn't pay any attention the first several rounds and I think >the agreement is that Greenburg & Hammer is the cheapest source for >boning (the lady I talked to said they're out of the catalog for about >two months) but is it also the best source for busks? > >Kat > _________________________________________________________________ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Henk 't Jong" Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 19:25:43 +0200 Subject: Re: H-COST: Pelisson again - -Poster: "Henk 't Jong" Henk & Pauline 't Jong tScapreel Medieval Advisors Dordrecht, Netherlands Hi all, Carol wrote: > So what would you call the garment worn by the Duchess of Burgundy in > the 15th century painting: Hunting with Falcons at the Court of Phillip > the Good? > > This painting is in Boucher and all the court are in white. It appears > that her 'cloak' is cut like a tabard with maybe a yoke? > I suppose you mean the painting in the Musee de Versailles called "La Chasse du Duc de Bourgogne" which is a 16th c copy of a painting dated ca 1420-30. I don't know which lady is the duchess, because that's not at all clear by either dress or other characteristics. Maybe you mean the lady with the long red necklace reaching to her knees, with the furry cloaklike thing? This could be called a large furred cloak or a pelisson, but it does not look like a 14th c one. It is hazardous to use this painting as a source for burgundian dress, as the 16yh c painter did not exactly understand what he was depicting in the manner of dress. This is very obvious from the headdresses and hats which are poorly understood, as ar some of the garments. Maybe the cloak used to look different on the original painting; I don't know. But a pellison in the conservative meaning it isn't... Henk _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Susannah Eanes" Date: Tue, 06 Apr 1999 10:29:47 PDT Subject: Re: H-COST: Re: corded petticoat - -Poster: "Susannah Eanes" >-Poster: ArcadiaCB@aol.com > >Hi Margo, > Re your questions on a corded petticoat (one of the things I've always meant >to make and never have time), I'll describe the original I have in my >collection. It's made of 3 panels (2) of 35" and one of 16" (after seaming) of >a fairly heavy white cotton. The cording is poking out in some places and is >a 1/4" diameter white cording. From wist to hem is 38". >From these measurements it appears that this petticoat may be earlier than the 1850s. It is fairly narrow, less than 90" around. May be 1830s or even mid-to-late 1820s. The cording starts >app. 18" from the waist, with the first 4 cords being 2" apart, then they >gradually go down to app 1 1/2 apart. Ther are 11 cord rows in all, just the >fabric pulled together and stitched in back to make the rows, plus a double >cord for the hem. Fairly typical of 1st quarter of the 19th c. construction for drawstrings or cords in petticoats, corsets, and shortgowns. The double corded hem is also very typical of that period. The hem seems to an extra 1 1/2: which is turned under and >stitched in place just under the last cord row. The waistband is 1" wide, just >a 2"+ piece folded over and the petticoat skirt is gauged/cartridge pleated >into the waistband. Again, fairly typical of the earlier period. The placket opening is 11" long, done on the join of two >panels. The interersting thing to me is that on the waistband are (5) 3/4" >buttonholes--one at each end of the waistband, one at the opposite end (center >front?) and one on each side between these three. Possibly this was a >petticoat for a young girl or teen and was fastened to some type of >corset/waist? (any helpful comments out there??) Often, a "petticoat body" consisted of two parts --the petticoat skirt, and an attached, or detachable, bodice, which held the petticoat at the right place in order to give the correct fashion silhouette, very important in the 1830s and earlier when the waistline was higher than the actual waist, and therefore had to be contrived into place. I haven't actually seen one that buttoned on, but it was a common way to attach upper and lower parts of little boys' outfits in the later part of the 18th century and early 19th, (slops/trousers to undervest) so maybe this wasn't unusual. Just a thought. There is a replaced part of >a panel plus a repair by the placket. Is the stitching very fine, or not? Just curious, not necessarily helpful in dating. I will check my references tonight as to the color brown in the 1850s for corded petticoats. Also, I have a "recipe for a corded petticoat" from a class of Saundra Altman's. You might try e-mailing her for a copy, or asking her if she minds us sharing ours with the list. Just couldn't resist sticking my oar in again... Susannah "We are only the trustees for those who come after us." --William Morris Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Susannah Eanes" Date: Tue, 06 Apr 1999 10:33:18 PDT Subject: Re: H-COST:corded petticoat - -Poster: "Susannah Eanes" > > >-Poster: Margo Anderson > >I would like to make an 1850's corded petticoat. Would it be appropriate to >make it in a solid color other than white, preferably dark? I have 200 >yards of brown cording, I hate brown so it's unlikely I'll use it for trim, >and it would show through white. Also, how is the petticoat attached to the >waist band? Flat pleats, gathers, or cartridge pleats? I believe in the 1850s cartridge pleats were still the preferred method of attaching skirts to waistbands. Susannah > >Margo > > _________________________________________________________________ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME > "We are only the trustees for those who come after us." --William Morris Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Susannah Eanes" Date: Tue, 06 Apr 1999 10:38:41 PDT Subject: Re: H-COST: 19th century men's undershirts - -Poster: "Susannah Eanes" In the mid 19th c. and earlier, men often wore shirts of wool under their outer clothes. Wool was considered from much earlier times to be the healthiest thing to wear "next the skin" [sic]. Ref. the Workwoman's Guide (c. 1839), for a start. It was credited with keeping unhealthy draughts and sudden changes in temperature away from the body, among other less likely things, such as keeping ladies' & children's minds on their work, and away from bodily concerns. These shirts were made of flannel, or a knitted fabric called "stockinette," in the 1820s. You might also look at Cunnington's "The History of Underwear," for some more refs. Hmmm... Susannah >From: Margo Anderson >Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com >To: h-costume@indra.com >Subject: H-COST: 19th century men's undershirts >Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 13:43:42 -0800 (PST) > > >-Poster: Margo Anderson > >I'm researching men's working wear of the 1850's and I have questions about >undershirts. Since I've found a number of references to wool shirts, I >assume something must have been worn under them for cleanliness and comfort. >Was this simply an ordinary shirt in linen or cotton, or was there a >specific undershirt style? I have found mention of undershirts knitted of >merino wool, which I understand is soft enough to wear next to the skin. >Were these the norm, or was there something else? > >Margo >(Who STILL hasn't found her copy of the History of Underclothes) > > _________________________________________________________________ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Margo Anderson Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 10:53:29 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: H-COST: Re: corded petticoat - -Poster: Margo Anderson >I will check my references tonight as to the color brown in the 1850s >for corded petticoats. Actually, I'd prefer almost any other color that the brown cording won't show through: I hate brown so much that it would depress me to have on a brown petticoat. I charge extra to sew brown clothes, too! Also, I have a "recipe for a corded petticoat" >from a class of Saundra Altman's. You might try e-mailing her for a >copy, or asking her if she minds us sharing ours with the list. Hmm...someone posted a "recipe for a corded petticoat" in response to my query at the civilian reenactor's Discussion Forum at http://www.cwreenactors.com/forums/civilian/civilian.html Is this the same article? If so, we should let the poster know that it should at least be credited to Sandra. Margo Anderson In Sunny California...with six inches of fresh snow. _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Karla Sexsmith Date: Tue, 06 Apr 1999 11:27:34 -0700 Subject: H-COST: late-period French women's clothing sources? - -Poster: Karla Sexsmith Greetings everyone, I am looking for places to start with regards to researching late-period (ie. 1400-1500's) French women's clothing (for SCA purposes). Does anyone know of any books or websites that would be a good place to start? Thanks, Karla _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: SNSpies@aol.com Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 14:31:08 EDT Subject: Re: H-COST: OT cross-stitch software request - -Poster: SNSpies@aol.com I like and use Pattern Maker. The standard version that I have cost ca. $60 while the professional version is $120. You can visit their web page at www.hobbyware.com and email them at support@hobbyware.com. Good program! Nancy/Ingvild _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ End of h-costume-digest V4 #260 ******************************* _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME-DIGEST From ???@??? Mon Apr 12 09:28:14 1999 Received: from mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE (mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE [130.149.4.14]) by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA25791 for ; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 02:13:04 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from mail.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.15]) by mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10Ufxn-00004L-00; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 02:13:03 +0200 Received: from coal.bg.tu-berlin.de by mail.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Wed, 7 Apr 1999 02:13:02 +0200 Received: from mail.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.15]) by mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10Ufxj-00004J-00; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 02:12:59 +0200 Received: from tubkom.prz.tu-berlin.de by mail.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Wed, 7 Apr 1999 02:12:58 +0200 Received: from mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE (mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE [130.149.4.14]) by tubkom.prz.tu-berlin.de (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id CAA00857 for ; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 02:11:10 +0200 (MESZ) Received: from mail.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.15]) by mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10Ufxf-00004G-00; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 02:12:55 +0200 Received: from server.indra.com by mail.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Wed, 7 Apr 1999 02:12:48 +0200 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.8.5/) with ESMTP id SAA02273; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 18:29:52 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id SAA25064 for h-costume-digest-outgoing; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 18:10:16 -0600 (MDT) Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 18:10:16 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199904070010.SAA25064@indra.com> From: owner-h-costume-digest@indra.com To: h-costume-digest@indra.com Subject: h-costume-digest V4 #261 Reply-To: h-costume-digest@indra.com Errors-To: owner-h-costume-digest@indra.com Precedence: bulk h-costume-digest Tuesday, 6 April 1999 Volume 04 : Number 261 In this issue: H-COST: Re: h-costume-digest V4 #260 H-COST: Publisher rant Re: H-COST: Re: corded petticoat H-COST: The Sound of Music Re: H-COST: The Sound of Music H-COST: Arnold's Tudor(?) book Re: H-COST: Arnold's Tudor(?) book H-COST: OT: hat for sale Re: H-COST: Arnold's Tudor(?) book H-COST: ANNOUNCEMENT: Tackycon Rides Again! Re: H-COST: The Sound of Music Re: H-COST: late-period French women's clothing sources? H-COST: Alcega ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ariyana Kylstram Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 11:50:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: H-COST: Re: h-costume-digest V4 #260 - -Poster: Ariyana Kylstram Aiee! I deleted the contact info for the Juan de Alcega book. Could someone please repost it for me? Thanks! .ari The Lady Ariyana of House Kylstram ariyana@cats.ucsc.edu http://www.kithrup.com/~ariyana/ _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: heather Date: Tue, 06 Apr 1999 15:44:14 -0700 Subject: H-COST: Publisher rant - -Poster: heather > What is Players Press publishing anyway, that has everybody calling > them? Jean Hunnisett!! And lots of other theatrical and costuming stuff. This discussion got started when someone on the list ran into one of their people at a show, who started dissing Janet Arnold's work. Needless to say she (the list-er) was unimpressed. I had earlier called them to answer a query of Where are they? on the list, and gotten the same diatribe on Arnold. (So, of course, I *had* to stick my oar in.) Hope this doesn't make things *too* much more confusing! Heather _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Susannah Eanes" Date: Tue, 06 Apr 1999 14:08:26 PDT Subject: Re: H-COST: Re: corded petticoat - -Poster: "Susannah Eanes" >-Poster: Margo Anderson > > >>I will check my references tonight as to the color brown in the 1850s >>for corded petticoats. > >Actually, I'd prefer almost any other color that the brown cording won't >show through: I hate brown so much that it would depress me to have on a >brown petticoat. I charge extra to sew brown clothes, too! > ;-D Will check as to suitability of which colors might be best. I know I will find it in some book or other with good refs... btw, I love brown, but it doesn't love me. As a matter of fact, my fiance calls my much-loved brown suit my "the poor didn't want this" suit, after a similar one worn by Julie Andrews in the Sound of Music. He frowns and says, "please don't wear that! It just isn't your color." And he's right. sigh... > Also, I have a "recipe for a corded petticoat" >>from a class of Saundra Altman's. You might try e-mailing her for a >>copy, or asking her if she minds us sharing ours with the list. > >Hmm...someone posted a "recipe for a corded petticoat" in response to my >query at the civilian reenactor's Discussion Forum at >http://www.cwreenactors.com/forums/civilian/civilian.html Is this the same >article? If so, we should let the poster know that it should at least be >credited to Sandra. > Yep! Good thinking. > >Margo Anderson >In Sunny California...with six inches of fresh snow. Yikes! And I thought I was to be pitied after a beautiful weekend in South Carolina, upon returning to the cold and windy mountains... Susannah "We are only the trustees for those who come after us." --William Morris Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Susannah Eanes" Date: Tue, 06 Apr 1999 14:11:58 PDT Subject: H-COST: The Sound of Music - -Poster: "Susannah Eanes" Speaking of the Sound of Music in my last post, does anyone know or have an opinion of the late 1930s costuming in that movie? Is it bad or good for Austria? It is nothing like people were wearing in America during that time. I know the movie played havoc with the real story of the Family von Trapp, but I fell in love with the playclothes & dresses made out of Fraulein Maria's draperies and the lovely brown (OK, I won't use brown) princess-seamed jumper worn by Julie Andrews. Just for a novelty, I might make something like them, as I have a great green & white print that looks like the drapery. It would be nice to know if it were something like might have been worn in Austria in the late 30s, not just a Hollywood idea of the 1960s. Susannah "We are only the trustees for those who come after us." --William Morris Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Sarah Toney" Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 17:21:44 -0400 Subject: Re: H-COST: The Sound of Music - -Poster: "Sarah Toney" On this topic, if you live in the area at all, the Von Trapp Family owns an Inn in Midstate Vermont that is interesting to visit. I believe they do have some old "family possessions" which may include clothing. Either way, a great place to visit. Sarah >Speaking of the Sound of Music in my last post, does anyone know or have >an opinion of the late 1930s costuming in that movie? Is it bad or good >for Austria? It is nothing like people were wearing in America during >that time. I know the movie played havoc with the real story of the >Family von Trapp, but I fell in love with the playclothes & dresses made >out of Fraulein Maria's draperies and the lovely brown (OK, I won't use >brown) princess-seamed jumper worn by Julie Andrews. Just for a >novelty, I might make something like them, as I have a great green & >white print that looks like the drapery. It would be nice to know if it >were something like might have been worn in Austria in the late 30s, not >just a Hollywood idea of the 1960s. > >Susannah > >"We are only the trustees for those who come after us." > --William Morris > >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > _________________________________________________________________ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME > _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: heather Date: Tue, 06 Apr 1999 16:36:23 -0700 Subject: H-COST: Arnold's Tudor(?) book - -Poster: heather > Which book is this? I did not know she had done any work on Tudor > clothing. Please enlighten me! (realizing I may have my neck in the guillotine for not making ***sure*** Tudor is the right word for "1560 to 1620"...:-) It's: Patterns of Fashion, The cut and construction on clothes for men and women c. 1560-1620. Janet Arnold 1985. ISBN 0 333 38284 6 The publisher of my copy is "M Papermac/DRAMA BOOK New York" but I'd do a search on ACSES or Bookfinder, someone else might be doing it now. Heather _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Merouda the True of Bornover Date: Tue, 06 Apr 1999 14:46:38 -0700 Subject: Re: H-COST: Arnold's Tudor(?) book - -Poster: Merouda the True of Bornover I'll stick me head on the block with ya. I believe many consider "Elizabethan" to be Tudor. She *is* a Tudor. FWIW, Cynthia > (realizing I may have my neck in the guillotine for not making > ***sure*** Tudor is the right word for "1560 to 1620"...:-) > It's: > Patterns of Fashion, The cut and construction on clothes for men and > women c. 1560-1620. Janet Arnold 1985. ISBN 0 333 38284 6 The > publisher of my copy is "M Papermac/DRAMA BOOK New York" but I'd do a > search on ACSES or Bookfinder, someone else might be doing it now. > > Heather > _________________________________________________________________ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME - -- Cynthia Long Merouda the True of Bornover Barony of Madrone Kingdom of An Tir _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Van Cleave & Fleming" Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 18:25:24 -0400 Subject: H-COST: OT: hat for sale - -Poster: "Van Cleave & Fleming" Is anyone interested in purchasing a large-brimmed black felt hat from me? It's the Hatcrafter's "Cartwheel" style which I bought from Amazon Drygoods (you can see it pictured in their General catalog, or online at http://hatcrafters.com/page9.htm ), hoping it would look early 1900's/1910's, but it's very 1940's/1950's instead. It's brand new, never been worn, one size. I bought it for $53 from Amazon Drygoods, I'll sell it for $30 plus shipping. If you're interested, please email me directly. Kendra Van Cleave tweedlebop@earthlink.net _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Jessica Wilbur" Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 18:49:34 -0400 Subject: Re: H-COST: Arnold's Tudor(?) book - -Poster: "Jessica Wilbur" > > -Poster: Merouda the True of Bornover > > I'll stick me head on the block with ya. I believe many consider > "Elizabethan" to be Tudor. She *is* a Tudor. FWIW, Cynthia Very true! I was just explaing to Heather privately that I tend to make a distinction in my own mind between "Tudor" and "Elizabethan". I much prefer earlier Tudor styles to later Elizabethan ones. Eliz. looks fussy to me, whereas Tudor has much more graceful lines. Just a quirk of mine, I guess. =) - --Jessica _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Betsy Delaney Date: Tue, 06 Apr 1999 18:51:30 -0400 Subject: H-COST: ANNOUNCEMENT: Tackycon Rides Again! - -Poster: Betsy Delaney Warning: This announcement is being crossposted. Please don't be cross with me. Forward at will, but not to the same lists! Thanks! Now scheduled: Tackycon 1999 (http://www.hawkeswood.com/tackycon/index.html) "What the heck is a Tackycon?" Glad you asked. Tackycon is a relaxacon for costumers. It is generally scheduled for whenever the World Science Fiction Convention is held off continent. There is no pressure, no "official" schedule of events, usually a silly masquerade, shopping trips and lots of hanging out and socializing. Don't miss your chance to socialize and be silly with the silliest of us! Activities in the Works: Friday Night Barbeque & Roast The Great Langley Park Maryland Shopping Spree & Masacree The Silly Hat Contest The "Name that Mannequin" Competition Wading Pools-a-go-go And probably more, though we haven't thought of it yet. Win Fabulous Prizes! Watch Really Old Videotaped Costume-Con Masquerades! See Full Grown Adults Play in Wading Pools! The details so far are as follows: Dates: Friday, July 16 - Sunday, July 18, 1999 Location: Hawkeswood (Our House) in Lovely, Scenic West Laurel, MD Hotel: I need to know which venue people would prefer to use, and how many rooms will be taken, so I know how many to reserve. This information needs to be back to me as soon as possible. The two hotels being considered are: The Comfort Suites: Route 1, South of Cherry Lane Advantage: Near 10 trillion restaurants (Well, okay, 30 or 40...) Room Rate (unofficial): $85 plus tax Suites hold up to six per room including sleeper couch. Best Western Maryland Inn Route 198 and I-95 Advantage: Five minutes from Hawkeswood, right off I-95. In-house restaurant, cafe and bar. Room Rate (unofficial): $82 (10 rooms reserved) $79 (20 rooms reserved), $75 (30 rooms reserved) King or Double Double, Smoking or Non-Smoking, Indoor or outdoor entrance, some rooms overlook pool. I'll need to set the room block with the chosen hotel. I'd really LOVE a headcount/roomcount, if possible. Cost: $20 per adult attendee $10 per child under 12 Under 6 free (Fee to be used for supplies and stuff; possibly for room rental if we take a meeting room at the hotel of choice.) Disclaimers and other stuff: This event is being run (more or less) in conjunction with the Hawkeswood Sewing Circle, regularly scheduled for the third Saturday every month. For more information about the Sewing Circles, please send me email: (mailto:betsy@hawkeswood.com) The house comes cat-enabled. He's a nice cat, but he does live here. Medicate accordingly. We don't have kids (yet), but lots of our friends do and the house is sort-of child proof. Plan accordingly. The main events may be held either at Hawkeswood or at the hotel, depending on the deal I can cut with them. Watch this web page for further details as they become firmer. Please feel free to distribute this information to whomever you think might be interested. And remember, this is supposed to be fun, dammit! How to Register: Send your Tackycon 1999 registration fee (US Funds only) with the following details to the address below: Tackycon 1999 P.O. Box 1044 Laurel, MD 20725-1044 301-369-3563 mailto:tackycon@hawkeswood.com Your First & Last Name: Additional People you are registering: Address: City, ST ZIP/PC: Phone Number: Email Address: Accommodations required (# of nights): (# of People): Arrival Date: Departure Date: (Note: This is for statistical purposes only! You will be responsible for making and confirming your own reservations, once a hotel room block has been established! Casa Hawkeswood has floor crashspace, but not for lots of people. The house isn't that big!) Dietary Restrictions/Accessability Issues: Anything you might like to do while you're here: Anything else you think I should know: Print this form and mail with your payment to the address above. Please don't send cash in the mail! This event is a Hawkeswood Production http://www.hawkeswood.com/tackycon/index.html Cheers! - -betsy - -- Betsy R. Delaney Webmistress at large ************************************************************************ betsy@hawkeswood.com or betsy@ability.net http://www.hawkeswood.com/, home of Hawkeswood Designs and http://www.Costume-Con.org/, home of Costume-ConNections (If you still have betsy@access.digex.net, change my address *NOW*!) ************************************************************************ _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: AlbertCat@aol.com Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 19:41:04 EDT Subject: Re: H-COST: The Sound of Music - -Poster: AlbertCat@aol.com In a message dated 4/6/99 5:28:18 PM Eastern Daylight Time, oh_susannah@hotmail.com writes: << does anyone know or have an opinion of the late 1930s costuming in that movie? >> It is a Dorothy Jenkins 1960s fantasy. Only the nuns are dressed correctly. My advice is to ignore the film's costuming all together. Actually I just ignore the whole thing. _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: The Purple Elephant Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 10:33:21 +0930 (CST) Subject: Re: H-COST: late-period French women's clothing sources? - -Poster: The Purple Elephant On Tue, 6 Apr 1999, Karla Sexsmith wrote: > > -Poster: Karla Sexsmith > > Greetings everyone, > > I am looking for places to start with regards to researching late-period > (ie. 1400-1500's) French women's clothing (for SCA purposes). Does anyone > know of any books or websites that would be a good place to start? > That's a very broad time period during which costume changed quite a bit. How accurate are you looking to be? Do you want a quick overview of the whole period or a tighter focus on a specific part? When you say 'late- - -period' do you really mean Tudor/Elizabethan eras? - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Claire F. Clarke "What is this world if, full of care, Physicist, writer, We have no time to stand and stare?" and non environmentally Robert Louis Stevenson friendly substance. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Marsha McLean Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 20:10:00 -0400 (EDT) Subject: H-COST: Alcega - -Poster: Marsha McLean - - -Poster: "Hope A. Greenberg" WROTE: For any of you who have or have seen the Alcega book, can you tell us what kinds or garments are represented. From previous posts and from Arnold's books there seem to be at least three men's loose gowns and a lady's farthingale. What else is there? Mostly men's or some other women's? And what dates does it cover? It has patterns for many styles of men'sand women's dress: round gowns, loose gowns, kirtles, petticoats, mourning gowns, many many things, mens: doublets, jerkins, cloaks, capes, loose gowns, hose of various types, venetians, etc. It was written in 1589 for the fashions of that year. It is especially useful for the variety of styles, there are several examples of everything. His cutting diagrams (taking the difference in fabric width into account) are very educational: I waste far less fabric now. Marsha Marsha McLean "Be yourself - it's who you do best" _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ End of h-costume-digest V4 #261 ******************************* _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME-DIGEST From ???@??? Mon Apr 12 09:28:16 1999 Received: from mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE (mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE [130.149.4.14]) by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA00900 for ; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 15:09:10 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from mail.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.15]) by mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10Us4r-0003hw-00; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 15:09:09 +0200 Received: from coal.bg.tu-berlin.de by mail.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Wed, 7 Apr 1999 15:09:08 +0200 Received: from mail.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.15]) by mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10Us4n-0003hs-00; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 15:09:05 +0200 Received: from tubkom.prz.tu-berlin.de by mail.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Wed, 7 Apr 1999 15:09:02 +0200 Received: from mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE (mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE [130.149.4.14]) by tubkom.prz.tu-berlin.de (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA05930 for ; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 15:07:13 +0200 (MESZ) Received: from mail.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.15]) by mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10Us4g-0003hc-00; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 15:08:58 +0200 Received: from server.indra.com by mail.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Wed, 7 Apr 1999 15:07:40 +0200 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.8.5/) with ESMTP id HAA05905; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 07:26:23 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id HAA02733 for h-costume-digest-outgoing; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 07:05:36 -0600 (MDT) Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 07:05:36 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199904071305.HAA02733@indra.com> From: owner-h-costume-digest@indra.com To: h-costume-digest@indra.com Subject: h-costume-digest V4 #262 Reply-To: h-costume-digest@indra.com Errors-To: owner-h-costume-digest@indra.com Precedence: bulk h-costume-digest Wednesday, 7 April 1999 Volume 04 : Number 262 In this issue: Re: H-COST: late-period French women's clothing sources? Re: H-COST: late-period French women's clothing sources? Re: H-COST: late-period French women's clothing sources? Re: H-COST: late-period French women's clothing sources? Re: H-COST: The Sound of Music H-COST: Chat Room H-COST: Re: Forming a costume guild Re: H-COST: late-period French women's clothing sources? H-COST: Museums in Vienna? Re: H-COST: Museums in Vienna? H-COST: Men's wool shirts Re: H-COST: The Sound of Music ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Karla Sexsmith Date: Tue, 06 Apr 1999 17:10:47 -0700 Subject: Re: H-COST: late-period French women's clothing sources? - -Poster: Karla Sexsmith >That's a very broad time period during which costume changed quite a bit. >How accurate are you looking to be? Do you want a quick overview of the >whole period or a tighter focus on a specific part? When you say 'late- >-period' do you really mean Tudor/Elizabethan eras? I haven't really pinned my persona down to a specific time yet, so I was hoping to get a bit of an overview of that era... (and yes I know I'm sort of doing things backwards, but I'm not looking to limit myself to only garb from that era, I just want at least one outfit to match my persona)... the name I've chosen can be documented to as early as 1462, so I'm looking for something between there and about 1600. I think what I'm looking for would be more like during the Renaissance period, but France instead of Italy. Does that help? :) Karla _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: The Purple Elephant Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 11:13:56 +0930 (CST) Subject: Re: H-COST: late-period French women's clothing sources? - -Poster: The Purple Elephant On Tue, 6 Apr 1999, Karla Sexsmith wrote: > I haven't really pinned my persona down to a specific time yet, so I was > hoping to get a bit of an overview of that era... (and yes I know I'm sort > of doing things backwards, but I'm not looking to limit myself to only garb > from that era, I just want at least one outfit to match my persona)... the > name I've chosen can be documented to as early as 1462, so I'm looking for > something between there and about 1600. I think what I'm looking for would > be more like during the Renaissance period, but France instead of Italy. > > Does that help? :) Well it eliminates 50 years which is a start *grin* For pre-1500 I'd suggest "Mediaeval Costume in England and France" by Mary Houston. Unfortunately most of the stuff I can think of off the top of my head is English, and this is the period when French and English costume begin to differ. However, if you don't mind risking the differences you could try "A Handbook of English Mediaeval Costume" and "A Handbook of English Costume in the 16th Century", both by some combination of Cunningtons. You can also look at books on memorial brasses (good for late 15th early 16th century England) or some of the late Books of Hours. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Claire F. Clarke "What is this world if, full of care, Physicist, writer, We have no time to stand and stare?" and non environmentally Robert Louis Stevenson friendly substance. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Robin Netherton Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 21:51:22 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: H-COST: late-period French women's clothing sources? - -Poster: Robin Netherton On Wed, 7 Apr 1999, The Purple Elephant wrote: > For pre-1500 I'd suggest "Mediaeval Costume in England and France" by > Mary Houston. Unfortunately most of the stuff I can think of off the top > of my head is English, and this is the period when French and English > costume begin to differ. However, if you don't mind risking the > differences you could try "A Handbook of English Mediaeval Costume" and > "A Handbook of English Costume in the 16th Century", both by some > combination of Cunningtons. You can also look at books on memorial > brasses (good for late 15th early 16th century England) or some of the > late Books of Hours. Let me take this ball and run with it. Yes, this is the period in which national differences became apparent. But so did art styles, which actually is a help when you're researching. Generally, for late 1500s and 1600s, each of the Western European cultures shone in a different medium. Brasses are almost exclusively English. Flanders produced superb portraits and other paintings. French costume is easiest to track through manuscript art and tapestries, and then paintings in the 1500s. Yes, you can find English manuscripts and paintings, and Flemish brasses and tapestries -- but if you want a general overview, go to where the bulk of the sources are. I'd head for a good library, preferably an older university library. Look in the catalog, under subject, for books on manuscript painting -- e.g. Harthan's _Books of Hours_ -- and anything on tapestries, and anything that says French art of the Middle Ages or the Renaissance or "Gothic" or whose title specifies one of your target centuries. Write down all the shelf numbers you find under these topics -- they'll come in clusters, as some books will be grouped with international, some with French art, and some by medium. Then head for the *oversize* shelves, and browse these numbers. Pull all the books with good color photos, and give preference to books that focus on France. After you've leafed through the ones that are exclusively French, your "eye" will be attuned to the styles in your range. In fact, before you start, get hold of Davenport's _History of Costume,_ which organizes art by century *and country*, unlike most costume books. The pictures are small and black-and-white, but many of the ones you find here you will see later, reproduced in the art books. You can use Davenport as your overall guide to fashion changes in this period, and the art books for a better view. It's best to avoid books that rely on re-drawings of art. I would also suggest avoiding books that focus on English costume until you feel *very* familiar with the French styles and can spot the differences. In the 1400s, the differences are often in headdress; in the 1500s, as clothing gets more structured, the English silhouette in general heads for a boxier, more angular look, while the French retains some curves. And, when you're looking at artwork, be suspicious by nature of anything worn by a saint, a goddess, or a historic queen. Often you'll find incredible and interesting costumes on these people, but if you never see the like on a *real* person, then it probably is at least partly the artist's imagination. Best sources are donor portraits (within religious paintings) and stand-alone portraits; illustrations of stories are often fine if the person being illustrated is a regular noblewoman, not a saint, goddess, queen, or supernatural figure. For non-noble dress, look at labors of the months, genre paintings, crowd scenes, etc. - --Robin, in the midst of feverishly preparing a presentation on dress of the 1400s, and thus surrounded with slides of English brasses, Flemish portraits, and French manuscripts _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Joan M Jurancich Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 20:07:17 -0600 (MDT) Subject: Re: H-COST: late-period French women's clothing sources? - -Poster: Joan M Jurancich At 11:13 AM 04/07/1999 +0930, The Purple Elephant wrote: > >-Poster: The Purple Elephant > >On Tue, 6 Apr 1999, Karla Sexsmith wrote: > >> I haven't really pinned my persona down to a specific time yet, so I was >> hoping to get a bit of an overview of that era... [snip] the >> name I've chosen can be documented to as early as 1462, so I'm looking for >> something between there and about 1600. I think what I'm looking for would >> be more like during the Renaissance period, but France instead of Italy. >> Does that help? :) >Well it eliminates 50 years which is a start *grin* >For pre-1500 I'd suggest "Mediaeval Costume in England and France" by >Mary Houston. Unfortunately most of the stuff I can think of off the >top of my head is English, and this is the period when French and >English costume begin to differ. However, if you don't mind risking the >differences you could try "A Handbook of English Mediaeval Costume" and >"A Handbook of English Costume in the 16th Century", both by some >combination of Cunningtons. >You can also look at books on memorial brasses (good for late 15th early >16th century England) or some of the late Books of Hours. >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >Claire F. Clarke I do know of one book for French costume information, it's even *in* French . The book is "Le Costume Civil en France du XIIIe au XIXe Siecle" by Camille Piton, printed in Paris in 1926. I first saw this book in the UCDavis Shields Library; when I did find one to purchase (several years ago), it cost me $100. The book has many examples of original (not re-drawn) pictures, bas-reliefs, and sculptures (almost all the illustrations are in black and white, but the descriptions usually describe the colors if the originals were colored). The pictures are not only of noble or royal personages, but include many illustrations of peasants and merchants as well. It is well worth the trouble to try to get this book via ILL if your local university library does not have a copy. Bonne chance, Joan Jurancich Sacramento, CA joanj@quiknet.com _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: AnnBWass@aol.com Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 22:34:31 EDT Subject: Re: H-COST: The Sound of Music - -Poster: AnnBWass@aol.com I have to agree. I know people in theater costuming who worship the movie, and I could never figure out why. I think it's just dreadful. Ann Wass _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Penny E. Ladnier" Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 22:45:34 -0400 (EDT) Subject: H-COST: Chat Room - -Poster: "Penny E. Ladnier" We have another fun thing to do on The Costume Gallery, a live chat room that is devoted to Historic and Vintage Costumes. You can find it at http://www.costumegallery.com/chat/chat.html We hope in the future to have scheduled featured guests in the chat room. I am open for suggestions as to who you would like to have as a featured guest. So please send suggestions and why they should be featured. If you know how I may contact this person, please include this information. Depending on the success of the chat room, I might add more chat rooms in the many diverse areas of the costume and fashion industries. Later...Penny Penny E. Dunlap Ladnier The Costume Gallery Website http://www.costumegallery.com _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Pierre & Sandy Pettinger Date: Tue, 06 Apr 1999 23:33:33 -0500 Subject: H-COST: Re: Forming a costume guild - -Poster: Pierre & Sandy Pettinger FYI for those who were mentioning starting a costume guild: If you wish to form a chapter of the International Costumer's Guild, info may be found at: www.costume.org/about/HowTo.html This is the "How to Start a Chapter" page. The basic site is www.costume.org. Sandy _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: The Purple Elephant Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 15:59:14 +0930 (CST) Subject: Re: H-COST: late-period French women's clothing sources? - -Poster: The Purple Elephant On Tue, 6 Apr 1999, Robin Netherton wrote: > actually is a help when you're researching. Generally, for late 1500s and > 1600s, each of the Western European cultures shone in a different medium. > Brasses are almost exclusively English. Flanders produced superb portraits > and other paintings. French costume is easiest to track through manuscript > art and tapestries, and then paintings in the 1500s. Yes, you can find Of course! *smacks head* How could I forget tapestries?! I've just pored over an entire book of them looking at c1500 clothing....*grin* - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Claire F. Clarke "What is this world if, full of care, Physicist, writer, We have no time to stand and stare?" and non environmentally Robert Louis Stevenson friendly substance. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Bronwyn Clarke Date: Wed, 07 Apr 1999 17:05:57 +1000 Subject: H-COST: Museums in Vienna? - -Poster: Bronwyn Clarke I have a whole afternoon and evening in Vienna, Austria in August in between plane flights. Does anyone know of any costume or textile museums in Vienna that I could visit? Thanks for any info, Bronwyn _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Dietmar Date: Wed, 07 Apr 1999 02:45:54 +0000 Subject: Re: H-COST: Museums in Vienna? - -Poster: Dietmar Greetings all, Bronwyn wrote: > I have a whole afternoon and evening in Vienna, Austria in August in > between plane flights. Does anyone know of any costume or textile > museums in Vienna that I could visit? Well, it's not exactly a costume or textile museum, but one of THE BEST art museums in the world is the Kunsthistorisches (art history) Museum in downtown Vienna. Many, many famous paintings are housed there: Bellini, Raphael, Titian, Tintoretto, Velazquez, Bosch, Durer, Cranach, Holbein, Breugel, Rubens, Van Dyck, Vermeer, Rembrandt, Gainsborough, etc. They have a collection of sculpture and decorative arts which features a number of tapestries (and the Cellini salt cellar). There are also collections of Greek and Roman Antiquities, Coins, Arms and Armor, and my personal favorite: the insignia, jewels, and vestments of the Holy Roman Emperor; i.e., the coronation robe, gloves, shoes, crown, orb, scepter, sword, etc. A full day isn't enough to see all of the good stuff that they have. Enjoy your trip, Dietmar "Victory or Defeat rests in God's hands; over Honor, we ourselves are Lord and Master." _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "David W. Rickman" Date: Wed, 7 Apr 99 8:23:23 EDT Subject: H-COST: Men's wool shirts - -Poster: "David W. Rickman" Hello, Regarding Margo's question about men's wool workshirts of the 1850's, there are countless photographs of working men, especially Gold Rush miners, wearing wool overshirts from this period.. Perhaps that is what Margo is looking for. These shirts had been around for some time, with many descriptions of sailors, express drivers, mountain men, soldiers, etc. wearing them in the 1830's and 1840's. They were an early "readymade" garment - mass produced in several sizes. Almost always they were either of red or blue wool, and pretty substantial. There are indications that some men did wear them next to the skin, while others undoubtedly wore "vests" (sleeveless undershirts, often, as Susannah points out, of wool, though linen and cotton were also used). But many of the photos and paintings of the day show a woolen shirt worn over a white cotton or linen shirt, the white shirt serving as an "undershirt." My impression is that often these woolen shirts served in place of a coat and waistcoat when working men, especially those far from home, lacked these. Thus you often see men in white shirts with cravats, with a woolen shirt worn over this. The woolen shirt's collar is unbuttoned to reveal about as much as a waistcoat would have shown of the white shirt front and the cravat. Unfortunately, no woolen work shirt seems to have survived in this country - well, at least no one seems to have found one yet. But a friend of mine, Jim Miller, has produced a small monograph on the subject of the woolen work shirts seen in Gold Rush photographs, and has even produced a pattern. It is speculative, but I've seen the shirts he has made from it and they look extraordinarily _right_ for the period. If Margo, or anyone else, would like me to send them the source for Jim's publications, I would be happy to do so. Just e-mail me directly. David Rickman drickman@state.de.us > >-Poster: Margo Anderson > >I'm researching men's working wear of the 1850's and I have questions about >undershirts. Since I've found a number of references to wool shirts, I >assume something must have been worn under them for cleanliness and comfort. >Was this simply an ordinary shirt in linen or cotton, or was there a >specific undershirt style? I have found mention of undershirts knitted of >merino wool, which I understand is soft enough to wear next to the skin. >Were these the norm, or was there something else? > >Margo >(Who STILL hasn't found her copy of the History of Underclothes) > > _________________________________________________________________ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Susannah Eanes" Date: Wed, 07 Apr 1999 06:04:56 PDT Subject: Re: H-COST: The Sound of Music - -Poster: "Susannah Eanes" > >-Poster: AnnBWass@aol.com > >I have to agree. I know people in theater costuming who worship the movie, >and I could never figure out why. I think it's just dreadful. >Ann Wass OK, Ok. I think it's because it was the first movie I ever saw, and I was about 4 years old. I thought Julie Andrews had descended straight from heaven, I had never heard such a voice. I still cry when she comes singing back over the fields to return to her beloved children. Sniff, sniff... I think the word that was used in the '70s to describe it was "schmaltzy." Thanks for your patience while I dip into the nostalgia bucket! Susannah "We are only the trustees for those who come after us." --William Morris _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ End of h-costume-digest V4 #262 ******************************* _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME-DIGEST From ???@??? Mon Apr 12 09:28:18 1999 Received: from mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE (mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE [130.149.4.14]) by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA04175 for ; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 22:07:43 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from mail.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.15]) by mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10Uybu-0005U6-00; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 22:07:42 +0200 Received: from coal.bg.tu-berlin.de by mail.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Wed, 7 Apr 1999 22:07:41 +0200 Received: from tubkom.prz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.62.9] ident=root) by mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10Uybp-0005Tw-00; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 22:07:37 +0200 Received: from mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE (mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE [130.149.4.14]) by tubkom.prz.tu-berlin.de (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA08867 for ; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 22:05:45 +0200 (MESZ) Received: from mail.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.15]) by mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10Uybi-0005Ts-00; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 22:07:30 +0200 Received: from server.indra.com by mail.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Wed, 7 Apr 1999 22:06:54 +0200 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.8.5/) with ESMTP id OAA15372; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 14:26:15 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id OAA00153 for h-costume-digest-outgoing; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 14:04:52 -0600 (MDT) Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 14:04:52 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199904072004.OAA00153@indra.com> From: owner-h-costume-digest@indra.com To: h-costume-digest@indra.com Subject: h-costume-digest V4 #263 Reply-To: h-costume-digest@indra.com Errors-To: owner-h-costume-digest@indra.com Precedence: bulk h-costume-digest Wednesday, 7 April 1999 Volume 04 : Number 263 In this issue: H-COST: Sound of Music & Elizabeth H-COST: Corded Petticoat Refs. Re: H-COST: Museums in Vienna? H-COST: Museums in Vienna Re: H-COST: Arnold's Tudor(?) book Re: H-COST: clothing sources? Re: H-COST: Corset Survey: Before/After? Re: H-COST: Arnold's Tudor(?) book Re: H-COST: clothing sources? Re: H-COST: The Sound of Music H-COST: tapestry book? H-COST: Heidi Marsh's 1850 Gown (was Wrapper variations) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "J,K,S&A Baird" Date: Wed, 07 Apr 1999 08:23:11 -0500 Subject: H-COST: Sound of Music & Elizabeth - -Poster: "J,K,S&A Baird" Nostalgia time-- I remember standing in a loong line to get in to Sound of Music--I've never seen so many nuns in one place as were in that line! Saw Elizabeth last night--what a strange movie. But visually impressive--images keep fleeting before my eyes. The costume budget must have been amazing. Kim in ND, where spring has sprung, but that doesn't mean we won't get a blizzard yet. _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Susannah Eanes" Date: Wed, 07 Apr 1999 06:27:47 PDT Subject: H-COST: Corded Petticoat Refs. - -Poster: "Susannah Eanes" Hi Margo & all: Didn't get to search as much as I needed to last night re: corded petticoat colors, 1840s & 1850s refs, etc. in order to make a definitive answer; but I did find the following (all paraphrased): Corsets & Crinolines: 1850s -An English young lady comments to a friends how her laundress must think her "fast" for owning "two corded petticoats." This is in the same breath while describing the caged crinolines of another acquaintance. History of Underclothes: By the 1850s, petticoats were available in brilliant colors, especially scarlet. Petticoats are mentioned in the late 50s being described as "parti-coloured," which I assume must describe some sort of multi-colored fabric. All 1840s & 1850s underpetticoats were stated to be white, except for the outermost one, which might be embroidered elaborately, or even brightly coloured, or possess a coloured hem decoration or frill that showed when the skirts were lifted. Calico Chronicle (Betty Mills, Texas Tech Press): "By the 1850s, most women owned at least one red flannel petticoat." I found no references to corded petticoats being anything other than white. I found no references in this period to taffeta petticoats. I found refs to drill, starched cotton, linen, wool, and "longcloth," which is also wool. I did not get a chance to look again in The Workwoman's Guide; it's an earlier book, anyway (1839, 1840). Might mention petticoat colors, but I can't remember anything other than white from my previous reading. Overall observations from my reading last night: By the 1850s, corded petticoats by and large were falling by the wayside in favor of the crinoline, and the fact that wearing more did not increase the size of the bell at the hem of one's skirt; they would crush one another instead of holding out the skirts because of their weight. I could find no advertisements for corded petticoats in the 1850s, but plenty of ads for cages & crinolines. Also, I could NOT find anything which led me to believe red flannel, or any other colored fabric, might be used for a corded petticoat. As stated above, all corded petticoats in which color was mentioned, were white. This from culling all my early-mid diaries & journals (about 15), store advertisements, and a quick scan of my library. Hope this helps. Susannah "We are only the trustees for those who come after us." --William Morris _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: SNSpies@aol.com Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 09:54:31 EDT Subject: Re: H-COST: Museums in Vienna? - -Poster: SNSpies@aol.com Bronwyn asked- << I have a whole afternoon and evening in Vienna, Austria in August in between plane flights. Does anyone know of any costume or textile museums in Vienna that I could visit? Oh deary me, yes! Go to the Kunsthistorisches Museum at Burgring 5. They have all the coronation regalia of the old Holy Roman Emperors such as Roger II's 11th century Sicilian mantle which is stunning. Nancy _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Gail DeCamp Date: Wed, 7 Apr 99 10:38:03 -0700 Subject: H-COST: Museums in Vienna - -Poster: Gail DeCamp Depends what you want. For art, art, art and more art, go to the Kunsthistorisches. For spectacular examples of Imperial regalia-- clothing, embroidery, jewels, etc. etc, see the crown jewels collection. >I have a whole afternoon and evening in Vienna, Austria in August in >between plane flights. Does anyone know of any costume or textile museums >in Vienna that I could visit? > >Thanks for any info, > >Bronwyn "A journey of a thousand miles should not begin with a wet butt." -T. Kolar _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Jean Waddie Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 19:43:40 +0100 Subject: Re: H-COST: Arnold's Tudor(?) book - -Poster: Jean Waddie In message <370A80BD.E7993B7D@serv.net>, Merouda the True of Bornover writes > >-Poster: Merouda the True of Bornover > >I'll stick me head on the block with ya. I believe many consider >"Elizabethan" to be Tudor. She *is* a Tudor. FWIW, Cynthia Trouble is, there's so much Elizabethan and so little Henry/Henry/Edward/Mary, us early Tudor types get our hopes up and then get disappointed again! Now, who can I confuse by calling very late 15th century "Tudor"? ;) Jean > >> (realizing I may have my neck in the guillotine for not making >> ***sure*** Tudor is the right word for "1560 to 1620"...:-) >> It's: >> Patterns of Fashion, The cut and construction on clothes for men and >> women c. 1560-1620. Janet Arnold 1985. ISBN 0 333 38284 6 The >> publisher of my copy is "M Papermac/DRAMA BOOK New York" but I'd do a >> search on ACSES or Bookfinder, someone else might be doing it now. >> >> Heather >> _________________________________________________________________ >> To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com >> with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME > >-- >Cynthia Long >Merouda the True of Bornover >Barony of Madrone >Kingdom of An Tir > > > _________________________________________________________________ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME - -- Jean Waddie _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Lynn Meyer Date: Wed, 07 Apr 1999 11:51:02 -0700 Subject: Re: H-COST: clothing sources? - -Poster: Lynn Meyer >From: Robin Netherton > >Let me take this ball and run with it. Yes, this is the period in which >national differences became apparent. But so did art styles, which >actually is a help when you're researching. Generally, for late 1500s and >1600s, each of the Western European cultures shone in a different medium. >Brasses are almost exclusively English. Flanders produced superb portraits >and other paintings. French costume is easiest to track through manuscript >art and tapestries, and then paintings in the 1500s. Yes, you can find >English manuscripts and paintings, and Flemish brasses and tapestries -- >but if you want a general overview, go to where the bulk of the sources >are. One of those really great ideas that seems so obvious once it's pointed out! Cool. Do you happen to know what areas of art would be good for Spain (at any century)? >And, when you're looking at artwork, be suspicious by nature of anything >worn by a saint, a goddess, or a historic queen. Often you'll find >incredible and interesting costumes on these people, but if you never see >the like on a *real* person, then it probably is at least partly the >artist's imagination. Best sources are donor portraits (within religious >paintings) and stand-alone portraits; illustrations of stories are often >fine if the person being illustrated is a regular noblewoman, not a saint, >goddess, queen, or supernatural figure. For non-noble dress, look at >labors of the months, genre paintings, crowd scenes, etc. I've heard this before and I'm curious about more detail. I haven't noticed anything really outrageous on a queen (or even a saint) in the Spanish paintings etc. I've seen so far, but they've mostly been in well-researched books devoted to costume, so presumably the authors weeded out these things. I can understand that they'd make up who-knows-what for saints (at least Biblical saints, or any other centuries-past figures) and goddesses and such. I'm mostly curious about what they'd imagine for queens, and why, and maybe if it was particularly common (or uncommon) for any particular country or time. Inquisitively, Halima _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Susannah Eanes" Date: Wed, 07 Apr 1999 11:58:02 PDT Subject: Re: H-COST: Corset Survey: Before/After? - -Poster: "Susannah Eanes" Hi all, I have compiled the 8 responses I have received so far. It is heavily weighted towards the 1500s and mid 1800s. For a more representative view, it would be nice to have more 18th and early 20th c. responses. Age & size-wise, the responses vary nicely. I'll give it another week, and then forward the tabulations to the list. As I mentioned to each of the respondents, in case this wasn't clear in the original post (see below), I will only include numbers, no names or e-mails to protect identities. Susannah >From: "Susannah Eanes" >Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com >To: h-costume@indra.com >Subject: H-COST: Corset Survey: Before/After? >Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 11:11:04 PST > > >-Poster: "Susannah Eanes" > > >Kind readers of the list, > >A conversation off-list got me curious about something, so I thought I >would try to compile a private survey based on modern women who are used >to corseting on a pretty regular basis --say at the very minimum, at >least three or more times a month for at least four to five or more >hours at a time. > >If you are interested in participating, please e-mail me privately with >the following information: > >Your age range --teens, 20s, 30s, 40s, 50s, 60s, 70s and older >Your time period --1500s, 1600s, 1700s, 1800s, 1900s >Your modern-day size range --Junior/Petite, Medium/Reg. Misses incl. >Tall, or Queen >Your build --small, medium, or large-boned >Your overall muscle tone --soft, medium, or firmly toned >Your before corseting waist measurement standing erect with good posture >but muscles relaxed (not holding that tummy in!) measured on bare skin >Your after corseting waist measurement standing, laced comfortably for >normal activities (not to get into that ball gown!) measured over the >corset > >I will compile the numbers I get and post the results. The premise is, >that smaller, more firmly toned people cannot corset down and compress >the flesh as much as larger people with softer flesh, so they end up >with less of a difference between their before and after corset >measurements than larger people, who can usually have greater >differences before and after corset measurement. >I forgot where I read this and wanted to try and see if it holds up in >practice. > >Thanks for your willingness to participate! > >Susannah Eanes >The Tailor's Measure > >"We are only the trustees for those who come after us." --William >Morris >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > _________________________________________________________________ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME > _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Jessica Wilbur" Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 15:02:19 -0400 Subject: Re: H-COST: Arnold's Tudor(?) book - -Poster: "Jessica Wilbur" > > -Poster: Jean Waddie > > In message <370A80BD.E7993B7D@serv.net>, Merouda the True of Bornover > writes > > > >-Poster: Merouda the True of Bornover > > > >I'll stick me head on the block with ya. I believe many consider > >"Elizabethan" to be Tudor. She *is* a Tudor. FWIW, Cynthia > > Trouble is, there's so much Elizabethan and so little > Henry/Henry/Edward/Mary, us early Tudor types get our hopes up and then > get disappointed again! Now, who can I confuse by calling very late > 15th century "Tudor"? ;) > > Jean I'm with you, Jean! My pipe-dream project is to do a study of early Tudor fashion, starting with Elizabeth of York and working my way through up to Bloody Mary, making a gown for each distinctive style, in order to fully understand the evolution thereof. Not that I'll ever have the time to do this, but I can dream! =) - --Jessica _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Susan Carroll-Clark" Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 15:01:58 -0400 Subject: Re: H-COST: clothing sources? - -Poster: "Susan Carroll-Clark" Greetings! >I can understand that they'd make up who-knows-what for saints >(at least Biblical saints, or any other centuries-past figures) >and goddesses and such. I'm mostly curious about what they'd >imagine for queens, and why, and maybe if it was particularly >common (or uncommon) for any particular country or time. I'll chime in here, having been to several of Robin's lectures. The classic example of this is the sideless surcote. If you took paintings at face value, you'd think sidelesses were being worn well into the 16th century. The fact is that they disappear in the scenes of regular people (that is, non-royalty) early in the fifteenth (if not before), being restricted after that to royal saints and queens. Some believe that the sideless continued on as a ceremonial garment. However, if you look particularly at the late examples, there are depictions of fabric doing things fabric couldn't possibly do and strange cuts and the like that lead one to believe that the artist could never have possibly *seen* a real sideless and was just working on the convention that a sideless was shorthand for "royal female saint" or "queen." If your queen or saint is wearing clothing whose cut you can confirm in contemporary depictions of regular people (even other nobles), you're probably OK. Susan _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Margo Anderson Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 12:30:05 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: H-COST: The Sound of Music - -Poster: Margo Anderson Just to show that even a primary source can be corrupt: My mother in law grew up in a similarly affluent military family during WWII, although in Germany, not Austria. She says that this movie is an exact picture of what her childhood was like! Of course, when you do a little more research, you realize that my mother in law is, while sweet, a total whacko, who has managed to convince herself that growing up in Nazi Germany was just like a Rogers and Hammerstein musical. Isn't research fun? Margo _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: heather Date: Wed, 07 Apr 1999 14:58:41 -0700 Subject: H-COST: tapestry book? - -Poster: heather > Of course! *smacks head* How could I forget tapestries?! I've just > pored over an entire book of them looking at c1500 clothing....*grin* What book is this?? Sounds fascinating. Heather _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Susannah Eanes" Date: Wed, 07 Apr 1999 13:01:29 PDT Subject: H-COST: Heidi Marsh's 1850 Gown (was Wrapper variations) - -Poster: "Susannah Eanes" Some of my thoughts on the following --no flames here! >-Poster: LuAnnMason@aol.com > >I'm going to risk some flames, but here goes anyway.... I was very intrigued >by the patterns available from the Wisconsin State Historical Society, because >I know that the reproduction items from the Wisconsin Veteran's Museum are >first rate. But.... (you knew it was coming, right??? ;-) )" > >In a message dated 3/30/99 11:27:27 AM EST, hhdunlap@email.msn.com writes: > ><< They have a > pretty Period Impressions day dress of 1845 which is very > simple. > >In my OWN experience, Period Impressions patterns give you JUST that--a >general "Impression" of the period. If that's what you are interested in, >that's just fine, BUT for people who want more than just a general look, to >whom the construction details make or break an outfit, Period Impressions is >NOT the way to go. They basically use and redesign modern patterns, using >modern cutting and tailoring techniques. Unfortunately, patternmaking has >altered drastically in nearly 150 years, and you WILL NOT achieve a true >period drape or look using these patterns. It's a physical impossibility. >Their armscyes are too large, their seams are in the wrong places, and their >patterns are NOT placed on the grain consistent with originals. > I will wholeheartedly agree with your description of Period Impressions patterns. They will not give you an accurate silhouette, even if you know how to make adjustments to patterns. They are frustrating to work with, and look --well --frumpy. Even the men's stuff. I tried, between six and eight years ago, several. >>> Heidi's Patterns LD-1-WD shows an 1859 work dress which is > basically an updated bed gown over a petticoat. >> > >I haven't tried this specific one, but once again, modern cutting techniques >were used on almost every pattern of Heidi's that I have purchased over the >past 20 years. You will NOT get a true period fit or look using these >patterns. > Welll.... I can't say I agree wholeheartedly here. I haven't used the above-referenced pattern, so I can't speak to that. I have only used ONE Heidi Marsh pattern, the Constance Dress. It is a copy of an original work gown from California c. 1850 or so, and it is the best and most representative of this type of work gown available that I have found. I have measured and photographed at least five extant gowns from different parts of the US that are almost identical to the Constance Dress. Is it possible that she got one right? I have made this gown in every size, from 6 to 46, that it is available in. It is one of the most popular gowns I make. The gown looks nice whether you are UltraQueensize or miniscule. It is a front-button gathered bodice with a waist inset piece onto which a cartridge-pleated skirt is set. I have made it in calicoes, homespun cottons, solid wool/linen, & lightweight wool. The shoulderline drops correctly, the waist inset is flattering and, above all, the dress is Comfortable to Wear! I call it my "sweatsuit," and I wear it with two lightweight petticoats & sensible stays. It is the one thing I come home & crawl into when I've had a bad day. I love it. Now, I'll stop & let someone else speak... >Finally, if anyone on this list feels like I'm being overly critical and/or >picky, and is still interested in using Period Impressions or Heidi Marsh >patterns, please e-mail me privately. I have a whole stash, and I'll let >them go CHEAP. I won't use them, and won't pass them on to folks in my area >because they aren't historically accurate. They're gathering dust and taking >up room, and I don't want them. I think I have 4 or 5 ladies patterns, and >another 8 or 10 men's patterns. > >LuAnn in Washington State > LuAnn, I wasn't being critical. I have heard that Heidi's other patterns are difficult to use and often the pieces do not fit. I just had to take up for my favorite gown! If you want to e-mail me privately, please do. Susannah "We are only the trustees for those who come after us." --William Morris _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ End of h-costume-digest V4 #263 ******************************* _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME-DIGEST From ???@??? Mon Apr 12 09:28:20 1999 Received: from mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE (mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE [130.149.4.14]) by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA11914 for ; Thu, 8 Apr 1999 20:00:34 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from mail.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.15]) by mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10VJ6P-00058C-00; Thu, 8 Apr 1999 20:00:33 +0200 Received: from coal.bg.tu-berlin.de by mail.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Thu, 8 Apr 1999 20:00:28 +0200 Received: from tubkom.prz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.62.9] ident=root) by mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10VJ6B-00057t-00; Thu, 8 Apr 1999 20:00:19 +0200 Received: from mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE (mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE [130.149.4.14]) by tubkom.prz.tu-berlin.de (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA16923 for ; Thu, 8 Apr 1999 19:58:29 +0200 (MESZ) Received: from mail.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.15]) by mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10VJ66-00057j-00; Thu, 8 Apr 1999 20:00:14 +0200 Received: from server.indra.com by mail.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Thu, 8 Apr 1999 19:58:44 +0200 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.8.5/) with ESMTP id MAA23483; Thu, 8 Apr 1999 12:20:07 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id LAA11047 for h-costume-digest-outgoing; Thu, 8 Apr 1999 11:56:49 -0600 (MDT) Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 11:56:49 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199904081756.LAA11047@indra.com> From: owner-h-costume-digest@indra.com To: h-costume-digest@indra.com Subject: h-costume-digest V4 #264 Reply-To: h-costume-digest@indra.com Errors-To: owner-h-costume-digest@indra.com Precedence: bulk h-costume-digest Thursday, 8 April 1999 Volume 04 : Number 264 In this issue: Re: H-COST: Arnold's Tudor(?) book H-COST: Fireman's shirt? Re: H-COST: Heidi Marsh's 1850 Gown (was Wrapper variations) H-COST: re: clothing sources Re: H-COST: tapestry book? H-COST: Sacramento Area Costume Guild (to be) Re: H-COST: Museums in Vienna? Re: H-COST: Museums in Vienna? H-COST: Corded Petticoat Instructions Re: H-COST: Museums in Vienna Re: H-COST: Alcega Re: H-COST: Museums in Vienna? Re: H-COST: Alcega H-COST: Re: H COST: seamstresses & buttonholes Re: H-COST: Alcega ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jean Waddie Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 20:50:51 +0100 Subject: Re: H-COST: Arnold's Tudor(?) book - -Poster: Jean Waddie In message , Jessica Wilbur writes > >-Poster: "Jessica Wilbur" > > >> >> -Poster: Jean Waddie >> >> In message <370A80BD.E7993B7D@serv.net>, Merouda the True of Bornover >> writes >> > >> >-Poster: Merouda the True of Bornover >> > >> >I'll stick me head on the block with ya. I believe many consider >> >"Elizabethan" to be Tudor. She *is* a Tudor. FWIW, Cynthia >> >> Trouble is, there's so much Elizabethan and so little >> Henry/Henry/Edward/Mary, us early Tudor types get our hopes up and then >> get disappointed again! Now, who can I confuse by calling very late >> 15th century "Tudor"? ;) >> >> Jean > >I'm with you, Jean! My pipe-dream project is to do a study of early Tudor >fashion, starting >with Elizabeth of York and working my way through up to Bloody Mary, making a >gown for >each distinctive style, in order to fully understand the evolution thereof. Not >that I'll ever >have the time to do this, but I can dream! =) > >--Jessica Yo! I'll do the hats! (when I give up my job, my husband, eating, cleaning, etc :-)) - -- Jean Waddie _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Margo Anderson Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 13:48:27 -0800 (PST) Subject: H-COST: Fireman's shirt? - -Poster: Margo Anderson What is the earlest date for those bib-fronted western shirts sometime's called "fireman's shirts"? Margo _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: LuAnnMason@aol.com Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 17:39:59 EDT Subject: Re: H-COST: Heidi Marsh's 1850 Gown (was Wrapper variations) - -Poster: LuAnnMason@aol.com In a message dated 4/7/99 3:05:45 PM EST, oh_susannah@hotmail.com writes: << I have measured and photographed at least five extant gowns from different parts of the US that are almost identical to the Constance Dress. Is it possible that she got one right? I have made this gown in every size, from 6 to 46, that it is available in. It is one of the most popular gowns I make. >> Ahhh--I have not tried THIS particular Heidi Marsh pattern. She does a men's shirt that goes together like a dream, and other stuff that I wouldn't use to kindle the fire. I'll have to give the Constance dress a try! :-) Thanks for the clarification--guess I swung my tarred brush a bit too wide on that one! ;-) LuAnn Mason Vancouver, WA _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Hilary Doda Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 18:12:09 -0400 Subject: H-COST: re: clothing sources - -Poster: Hilary Doda >I can understand that they'd make up who-knows-what for saints >(at least Biblical saints, or any other centuries-past figures) >and goddesses and such. I'm mostly curious about what they'd >imagine for queens, and why, and maybe if it was particularly >common (or uncommon) for any particular country or time. Well, if you take a look at the "Rainbow Portrait" of Queen Elizabeth, there are a number of very strange things. Her neckline is very 17th century, but even beyond that, the ~whatever-it-is~ that she's wearing on her head is definitely not your usual Elizabethan hat. Hilary Doda/Joane Steward ********************************************** "Good drama is like Soylent Green - it's made of people." - Steph Brochu _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: The Purple Elephant Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 09:35:16 +0930 (CST) Subject: Re: H-COST: tapestry book? - -Poster: The Purple Elephant On Wed, 7 Apr 1999, heather wrote: > > -Poster: heather > > > Of course! *smacks head* How could I forget tapestries?! I've just > pored over an entire book of them looking at c1500 clothing....*grin* > > What book is this?? Sounds fascinating. Argh! It was a French book, can't recall the title (took it back to the library the other day. Hang on I'll check the catalogue quickly... Aha! "Chefs-D'Oeuvre de la Tapisserie du XIVe au XVIe Siecle" No more info is listed in the catalog, but I think it was a museum publication. It does have a few tapestries from earlier and later but most of them date c1500. Most of the piccies are black and white, but they have quite a few colour plates and lots of close-ups that cause you to dribble on the page and say 'How the hell did they make these things so detailed?' - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Claire F. Clarke "What is this world if, full of care, Physicist, writer, We have no time to stand and stare?" and non environmentally Robert Louis Stevenson friendly substance. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Diana H Date: Wed, 07 Apr 1999 17:30:04 -0700 Subject: H-COST: Sacramento Area Costume Guild (to be) - -Poster: Diana H Dear Sandy, Thanks for the info on how to start a chapter of the International Costumer's Guild! I was looking at the web page and found out that to start a chapter all you need a little dedication, an organizer, and six people to sign the petition to form the group. I was wondering if people in the Greater Sacramento area were interested in this? This includes Davis, of course (I know there are a few of you on the list who live out there.....) Not that I am volunteering myself to organize everything, but I will certainly help out because it would be nice to get together with other costumers and chat about this and that. So if you are interested, please respond to my e-mail and I will try to compose a list of us and maybe get things off the ground. Thanks for the bandwidth! Diana from Roseville, CA - -- * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * "There are too many mediocre things in life to deal with.....Love shouldn't be one of them." - --Ione Skye in "Dream for an Insomniac" _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Susan Fatemi Date: Wed, 07 Apr 1999 18:25:59 -0700 Subject: Re: H-COST: Museums in Vienna? - -Poster: Susan Fatemi SNSpies@aol.com wrote: > > -Poster: SNSpies@aol.com > > Bronwyn asked- > > << I have a whole afternoon and evening in Vienna, Austria in August in > between plane flights. Does anyone know of any costume or textile museums > in Vienna that I could visit? > > Oh deary me, yes! Go to the Kunsthistorisches Museum at Burgring 5. They > have all the coronation regalia of the old Holy Roman Emperors such as Roger > II's 11th century Sicilian mantle which is stunning. > Nitpicking, or possibly an interesting sidebar. If Roger's mantle is the one I'm thinking of, it is a Mamluk piece, probably made in Egypt or Syria. It's red and gold and has lions, a palm tree, and some other animal. Susan F. Might there be some kind of museum in Vienna that would showcase the work of the Wienner Werkstatte?? Active from about the turn of the century up to WWII, I believe. - -- Oh Noh! Kimonos! susanf@netwiz.net http://www.netwiz.net/~susanf _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Dietmar Date: Thu, 08 Apr 1999 00:32:37 +0000 Subject: Re: H-COST: Museums in Vienna? - -Poster: Dietmar Greetings all, > Nitpicking, or possibly an interesting sidebar. If Roger's mantle > is the one I'm thinking of, it is a Mamluk piece, probably made > in Egypt or Syria. It's red and gold and has lions, a palm tree, > and some other animal. That's the one. It's a semicircle with a tree of life up the center and a lion on top of a camel reflected on either side. The ground is red silk embroidered with gold thread and crusted with gold filigree, precious stones and pearls. The Cufic inscription in Arabic around the hem states that the robe was made in 1133/4 by Arab artists for Roger II of Sicily. > Might there be some kind of museum in Vienna that would showcase > the work of the Wienner Werkstatte?? Active from about the turn of > the century up to WWII, I believe. I might be confusing them with the Blaue Reiter, but they were undoubtedly shut down by the Nazis in the early 30's. I don't know of a museum in Vienna, but you'd undoubtedly find a lot of their work in the Neue Pinakothek in Munich. Regards, Dietmar "Victory or Defeat rests in God's hands; over Honor, we ourselves are Lord and Master." _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: aleed Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 08:51:03 -0400 (EDT) Subject: H-COST: Corded Petticoat Instructions - -Poster: aleed I wanted to thank the person who posted the URL for the bbs that had the message on making a corded petticoat, and also to let y'all know that I've put the instructions up on a webpage of their own at http://www.dnaco.net/~aleed/corsets/cordpett.html ------------------------------ From: Merlyncc@aol.com Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 09:49:20 EDT Subject: Re: H-COST: Museums in Vienna - -Poster: Merlyncc@aol.com In a message dated 4/7/99 1:28:31 PM Central Daylight Time, gdecamp@best.com writes: > For art, art, art and more art, go to the > Kunsthistorisches. For spectacular examples of Imperial regalia-- > clothing, embroidery, jewels, etc. etc, see the crown jewels collection. > I'd like to add my two cents worth - do not miss the crown jewels collection! And allow several hours - they ran me out five minutes after closing time, and I'd go again. It is much more than jewels. You'll drool over the christening gowns encrusted in pearls and see silk/gold embroidery on liturgical garments so fine it may change your mind about a historical basis for using gold lame (though probably not!) It's in a building to the side at the Imperial Palace (Hofburg.) If you're interested in men's clothing, I'm told the Military Museum is great for 18th-19th century. Our group split, and I chose the Kunsthistorisches. Take a sketchbook to the K, and be sure to wander the side galleries as well. Wish I could go back! Priscilla Schmitz _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Hope Greenberg Date: Thu, 08 Apr 1999 11:39:31 -0500 Subject: Re: H-COST: Alcega - -Poster: Hope Greenberg Marsha McLean wrote: Re: the Alcega book > It has patterns for many styles of men'sand women's dress: round gowns, > loose gowns, kirtles, petticoats, mourning gowns, many many things, mens: etc. Thanks! (Or maybe I should say "Oh No!!!") You just moved it from my "should buy" to my "must buy" list. - - Hope _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: SNSpies@aol.com Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 11:43:31 EDT Subject: Re: H-COST: Museums in Vienna? - -Poster: SNSpies@aol.com Hello, Susan. << Nitpicking, or possibly an interesting sidebar. If Roger's mantle is the one I'm thinking of, it is a Mamluk piece, probably made in Egypt or Syria. It's red and gold and has lions, a palm tree, and some other animal. Yes, that is the mantle. All the references I have on it, including those from the Kunsthistorisches Museum, indicate that the mantle was made in the workshops in Palermo which Roger started after his conquest of Sicily. The workmanship is definitely Islamic (and stunningly beautiful it is, too). Roger pulled many many weavers and other artisans to Palermo from the eastern Mediterranean. What is very interesting, to me at least, is that brocaded tabletwoven band around the bottom. Sicily was apparently the place were this northern European technique went east, one of the very few textile techniques to not go from east to west. <> I just looked through "The Cambridge Guide to the Museums of Europe". Lots of great museums in Vienna, but I didn't see any reference to the Wienner Werkstatte specifically. May I suggest that you find the Austrian Embassy on-line and make inquiries through them? Good luck! Nancy _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: snowfire@mail.snet.net Date: Thu, 08 Apr 1999 11:52:30 -0400 Subject: Re: H-COST: Alcega - -Poster: snowfire@mail.snet.net >Marsha McLean wrote: >Re: the Alcega book >> It has patterns for many styles of men'sand women's dress: round gowns, >> loose gowns, kirtles, petticoats, mourning gowns, many many things, mens: >etc. M'lady, could you please post the details on this book? And also, I wonder, what is the time-span the patterns are drawn from? Elysant de Holtham _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Susannah Eanes" Date: Thu, 08 Apr 1999 10:45:55 PDT Subject: H-COST: Re: H COST: seamstresses & buttonholes - -Poster: "Susannah Eanes" > >-Poster: Margo Anderson > >>In the books, it was Laura, not Mary, who worked in town by doing piecework >>sewing. As I recall, she worked one summer, mostly making buttonholes at a >>dry goods store > >Laura Ingalls Wilder (the author, not her character) helped support her >family with sewing when she wasn't teaching school. After her marriage, she >helped raise the money needed to move and buy their farm by sewing. She was >very proud of having once made sixty shirt buttonholes in one hour. My mind >boggles at the idea of doing a handworked buttonhole in one minute, (or at >all, but that's me) but her daughter says she did do it. > >Margo Anderson > Late reading old mail... this was so interesting! I have to brag on my better half a bit. With about a year's worth of practice, he has learned to do wonderful handworked buttonholes that mimic exactly those on 18th c. tailored mens' frock coats. He uses various weights of pearl cotton, silk twist, or linen thread, whatever is called for by the garment. He can do 20 tightly embroidered buttonholes, approx. 1 1/2" to 2" long, in about two hours. Yes! Susannah _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Franchesca Havas" Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 12:56:25 -0500 Subject: Re: H-COST: Alcega - -Poster: "Franchesca Havas" - -----Original Message----- From: Ralph Pine To: Franchesca Havas Date: Monday, April 05, 1999 9:37 AM Subject: Re: book inquiry :You can order the book, "Libro de Geometria, Pratica y Traca" by Juan de Alcega (Tailor's Pattern Book, 1589) via phone, fax, email, mail, or the order form on :our web site. It is $40.00 and should be in our warehouse within the week. ISBN but it is 0-89676-234-3. : :Thanks for your interest. : :Ralph Pine :Quite Specific Media Group Ltd., 260 Fifth Ave., New York, NY 10001. (212) :725-5377 v. (212) 725-8506 f. www.quitespecificmedia.com. Imprints: Drama :Publishers, Costume & Fashion Press, By Design Press, Jade Rabbit, :EntertainmentPro :_______________________________________________________________________ :rpine@quitespecificmedia.com :_______________________________________________________________________ : Sincerely, F. Havas Dallas, Texas - -----Original Message----- From: snowfire@mail.snet.net To: h-costume@indra.com Date: Thursday, April 08, 1999 10:54 AM Subject: Re: H-COST: Alcega : :-Poster: snowfire@mail.snet.net : : :>Marsha McLean wrote: :>Re: the Alcega book :>> It has patterns for many styles of men'sand women's dress: round gowns, :>> loose gowns, kirtles, petticoats, mourning gowns, many many things, mens: :>etc. : :M'lady, could you please post the details on this book? And also, I wonder, :what is the time-span the patterns are drawn from? : :Elysant de Holtham : _________________________________________________________________ : To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com : with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME : _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ End of h-costume-digest V4 #264 ******************************* _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME-DIGEST From ???@??? Mon Apr 12 09:28:42 1999 Received: from mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE (mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE [130.149.4.14]) by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA01877 for ; Fri, 9 Apr 1999 15:42:38 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from mail.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.15]) by mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10VbYL-0000N0-00; Fri, 9 Apr 1999 15:42:37 +0200 Received: from coal.bg.tu-berlin.de by mail.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Fri, 9 Apr 1999 15:42:35 +0200 Received: from tubkom.prz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.62.9] ident=root) by mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10VbYF-0000Mq-00; Fri, 9 Apr 1999 15:42:31 +0200 Received: from mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE (mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE [130.149.4.14]) by tubkom.prz.tu-berlin.de (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA24138 for ; Fri, 9 Apr 1999 15:40:36 +0200 (MESZ) Received: from mail.zrz.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.4.15]) by mail2.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with esmtp (EXIM-2.12) for id 10VbY7-0000Mg-00; Fri, 9 Apr 1999 15:42:23 +0200 Received: from server.indra.com by mail.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (IC-PP); Fri, 9 Apr 1999 15:41:54 +0200 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.8.5/) with ESMTP id IAA08033; Fri, 9 Apr 1999 08:05:17 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id HAA05179 for h-costume-digest-outgoing; Fri, 9 Apr 1999 07:39:39 -0600 (MDT) Date: Fri, 9 Apr 1999 07:39:39 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199904091339.HAA05179@indra.com> From: owner-h-costume-digest@indra.com To: h-costume-digest@indra.com Subject: h-costume-digest V4 #265 Reply-To: h-costume-digest@indra.com Errors-To: owner-h-costume-digest@indra.com Precedence: bulk h-costume-digest Friday, 9 April 1999 Volume 04 : Number 265 In this issue: Re: H-COST: Re: H COST: seamstresses & buttonholes H-COST: NYC Museums H-COST: Warning E-Bay H-COST: *sigh* Need a web site Re: H-COST: *sigh* Need a web site Re: H-COST: *sigh* Need a web site H-COST: Re: h-costume-digest V4 #264 H-COST: Speaking of art books... Re: H-COST: Museums in Vienna? Re: H-COST: Warning E-Bay Re: H-COST: Alcega info and reply to Snowfire H-COST: Vienna Re: H-COST: Alcega info H-COST: Question... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Margo Anderson Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 11:04:37 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: H-COST: Re: H COST: seamstresses & buttonholes - -Poster: Margo Anderson A >I have to brag on my better half a bit. With about a year's worth of >practice, he has learned to do wonderful handworked buttonholes that >mimic exactly those on 18th c. tailored mens' frock coats. He uses >various weights of pearl cotton, silk twist, or linen thread, >whatever is called for by the garment. He can do 20 tightly >embroidered buttonholes, approx. 1 1/2" to 2" long, in about two >hours. Wow! He's a keeper, all right! Margo _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Donna Kenton Date: Thu, 08 Apr 1999 14:38:35 -0400 Subject: H-COST: NYC Museums - -Poster: Donna Kenton If memory serves, this was recently discussed, and I don't want to bog down the list with it again. However, it looks like I'm going to have a full week in NYC to look at costuming and needlework. Oh, I'm a happy camper! If someone can kindly tell me how I can find the old posts on NYC museums and their costuming/needlework, I'd be most appreciative. Or, if you have a particular museum you'd recommend, please send the info to me. The more research I get done before I go, the more I can get accomplished in that week. Thanks! Donna Kenton donna@dabbler.com _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Stephen Bergdahl Date: Thu, 08 Apr 1999 13:18:41 -0700 Subject: H-COST: Warning E-Bay - -Poster: Stephen Bergdahl I am not normally one to post ads for E-bay on a discussion list, but..... I've been hit by the Spring Cleaning bug, and I am getting rid of a part of my Historical costume supplies. And I want them to go to good homes. So instead of boring our member who are not interested I am posting this note with the hope to keep everybody happy. I have a number of things I will be posting: Patterns, Fabric, Trim, Lace, etc. If you are interested please ship me your E-mail address and I will notify you when I post things. Right now I have listed some French Paste Sequins for the 1900's. To check them out go to: http://cgi3.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?MfcISAPICommand=ViewListedItems&userid=madly&include=0&since=-1&sort=2&rows=25 This the last time I will post this. Thank you for your time and patience. Your Stephen Bergdahl _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Brandy Dickson" Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 15:18:34 -0700 Subject: H-COST: *sigh* Need a web site - -Poster: "Brandy Dickson" I am looking for the farthingales webpage that sells corset and boning supplies. I recall that the list had put it up a while ago, but I can't find it in my old postings... I was wondering if anyone had the url, 'cause my attempts have failed... Thanks, Brandy Dickson P.S. If you want to e-mail me privately, that's fine. _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Margo Anderson Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 15:21:09 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: H-COST: *sigh* Need a web site - -Poster: Margo Anderson At 03:18 PM 4/8/99 -0700, you wrote: > >-Poster: "Brandy Dickson" > >I am looking for the farthingales webpage that sells corset and boning >supplies. Farthingales is at: www.farthingales.on.ca/ If you're in the US, this URL is for a currency converter that will help you figure out the prices: http://www.xe.net/currency/ Have fun! Margo _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "J,K,S&A Baird" Date: Thu, 08 Apr 1999 18:02:05 -0500 Subject: Re: H-COST: *sigh* Need a web site - -Poster: "J,K,S&A Baird" http://www.farthingales.on.ca phone 519-275-2374 At 03:18 PM 4/8/99 -0700, you wrote: > >-Poster: "Brandy Dickson" > >I am looking for the farthingales webpage that sells corset and boning >supplies. I recall that the list had put it up a while ago, but I can't >find it in my old postings... I was wondering if anyone had the url, 'cause >my attempts have failed... > >Thanks, >Brandy Dickson > >P.S. If you want to e-mail me privately, that's fine. > > _________________________________________________________________ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME > _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Marsha McLean Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 20:56:15 -0400 (EDT) Subject: H-COST: Re: h-costume-digest V4 #264 - -Poster: Marsha McLean >- -Poster: Hope Greenberg > >Marsha McLean wrote: >Re: the Alcega book >> It has patterns for many styles of men'sand women's dress: round gowns, >> loose gowns, kirtles, petticoats, mourning gowns, many many things, mens: >etc. > >Thanks! (Or maybe I should say "Oh No!!!") You just moved it from my >"should buy" to my "must buy" list. > >- - Hope > _______________________________ So I should hope! _ Marsha McLean "Be yourself - it's who you do best" _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Tigershado@aol.com Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 21:11:04 EDT Subject: H-COST: Speaking of art books... - -Poster: Tigershado@aol.com I just saw a book on Hans Holbein over on eBay. It's listed as a 1999 advance review copy with 268 illustrations. Sounded interesting, but I'm between jobs so I don't dare bid on it. In case anyone's interested here's the URL. http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=86061321 Barbara Corley tigershado@aol.com _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Susan Fatemi Date: Thu, 08 Apr 1999 19:16:37 -0700 Subject: Re: H-COST: Museums in Vienna? - -Poster: Susan Fatemi SNSpies@aol.com wrote: > > I just looked through "The Cambridge Guide to the Museums of Europe". Lots > of great museums in Vienna, but I didn't see any reference to the Wienner > Werkstatte specifically. May I suggest that you find the Austrian Embassy > on-line and make inquiries through them? Good luck! > > Nancy Thanks, Nancy, but unfortunately I'm not the one going to Vienna! Just offering a suggestion. The Werkstatte (which means workshop, I think) was the Viennese equivalent of the Arts & Crafts movement and wanted to bring the beauty of good design to every aspect of daily life. They designed furniture and upholstery fabric, tea kettles and china. But most importantly they designed *clothing* and *shoes*. Gustav Klimt even designed a dress or two. There have been several books about the workshop, but not enough pictures of clothes. Susan F. - -- Oh Noh! Kimonos! susanf@netwiz.net http://www.netwiz.net/~susanf _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Fooled You Date: Thu, 08 Apr 1999 21:40:37 -0700 Subject: Re: H-COST: Warning E-Bay - -Poster: Fooled You I would be interested in looking at lace and trim. So if you could send a note to me at "blue@missnformed.com" when you post these I would appreciate it. Sincerely, Erin Stephen Bergdahl wrote: > -Poster: Stephen Bergdahl > > I am not normally one to post ads for E-bay on a discussion list, > but..... > > I've been hit by the Spring Cleaning bug, and I am getting rid of a part > of my Historical costume supplies. And I want them to go to good > homes. So instead of boring our member who are not interested I am > posting this note with the hope to keep everybody happy. I have a > number of things I will be posting: Patterns, Fabric, Trim, Lace, etc. > If you are interested please ship me your E-mail address and I will > notify you when I post things. Right now I have listed some French > Paste Sequins for the 1900's. To check them out go to: > > http://cgi3.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?MfcISAPICommand=ViewListedItems&userid=madly&include=0&since=-1&sort=2&rows=25 > > This the last time I will post this. Thank you for your time and > patience. > > Your Stephen Bergdahl > > _________________________________________________________________ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: "Wanda Pease" Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 22:11:36 -0700 Subject: Re: H-COST: Alcega info and reply to Snowfire - -Poster: "Wanda Pease" Tailor's Pattern Book, 1589 Translated and reproduced from the Spanish original (first published in this year, so _everything_ in the facsimile is "period" by definition. The publication date gives you a hint at to what "period" the patterns are from), Juan de Alcega. Facsimile (means exact duplicate, in this case photographic), with translation by Jean Pain & Cecilia Bainton, Introduction and notes by J.L. Nevinson; Ruth Bean, Carlton, Bedford Originally published as _Libero de Geometria practica y traca, etc. in the city of Madrid (Spain).The facsimile of the original volume is contained in the first 90 pages or so. The last 66 pages consist of the patterns reproduced exactly (4 to a page) with English translations of Senor Alcega's notes, and conversion tables. It is a pattern book: "Dealing with all that concerns the profession of Tailor, in order to know how much woolen cloth, silk or other material will be needed to make many kinds of clothes both for men and for women; and many other secret and curious facts concerning this Art. Compiled by Juan de Alcega of the Province of Guipuzcoa and of the house of Alcega. Dedicated to the most illustrious Senor Tejada, Bachelor of Arts, of the Supreme Council of our lord the King. Seen, examined and licensed. Printed in Madrid at the house of Guillermo Drouy Printer of books in the year 1589" (original foreword) (What a Tailor in Spain, practicing his craft in the year 1589, would/should know.) "The republication of this work after nearly 400 years, though absorbing, has been neither swift nor easy. The initial plan to produce a straight facsimile reprint was soon expanded by the addition of a translation aimed primarily at the costume maker but, because of the obscurity of many of the old Spanish terms and Alcega's sometimes sketchy instructions, several difficult textual problems arose. The solutions required much original research and sustained detective work, both here (i.e. England) and abroad, before a text making practical sense could be produced and backed by authoritative notes." This edition could not have been produced without the help of the Victoria and Albert Museum, London, who permitted the reproduction of their extremely rare copy of the book. " (Ruth Bean's Foreword to the Facsimile) I count 79 original patterns in all (all of which are reproduced in the second, translated section of this edition of the book. They range from mens and women's doublets of silk and wool, to cloaks (plain, Herreruelo, Bohemian, Balandran, christening and Clerical in silk, cloth, and felt), jerkins, Christian and Moorish cassocks, Bishop's Mantle and amice, cloth and "Florentine cloth rash), Chapter mantle for Knight Commanders of the Order of St. John, soutanes,Turkish and Spanish morning gowns of silk and cloth, Spanish and Roman gowns of silk and cloth, Learned mens gowns, Saddle trappings for jousting, Burnous for the game of canes, skirts (narrow and large) Kirtles for children, women, fat women, with low cut bodice, two kirtles of cloth rash cut together, Skirt and bodice with puffed sleeves, Laced mourning coats for women, Silk farthingale for a woman, baize gown for a girl, Gowns of silk and cloth for a woman, Mantles of silk, kersey, and cloth for women and girls, War Banner of taffeta. Each pattern comes with a short explanatory paragraph by the author, translated in the second section. These are not Simplicity directions. The patterns worked wonderfully for me once I figured out what in the world was going on. Some pieces are not marked as to what they are. Several do not look anything like what we expect, with back collar pieces cut in one with the back piece, curved shoulder seams, lack of a back armscye on full backed pieces. Sleeves are not set in the modern manner, the seams come off the inside of the arm rather than at the arm pit. Skill working with modern patterns may actually be a liability. The patterns do seem to be to scale. The book does not include things a Tailor would not make, i.e. corsets, hose, and surprisingly slops, netherhose, whatever. Recommendation: even if Elizabethan (or Philippians in this case) isn't your "thang", get this book! Senor Alcega was a master at getting the most out of every piece of fabric that came his way, and the cutting diagrams will give you a feel for the way earlier costumes were cut. Also, this book is unlikely to be available for long. It appears to be a private printing, for a small audience (I know, we may not be mighty in numbers, but our hearts are pure!). Before this came up I was ready to Xerox a copy for a friend because it was unobtainable even though book searchers. I suspect this will be the case again in a year! Regina Romsey, OL, OP, and old used Viscountess :You can order the book, "Libro de Geometria, Pratica y Traca" by Juan de Alcega (Tailor's Pattern Book, 1589) via phone, fax, email, mail, or the order form on :our web site. It is $40.00 and should be in our warehouse within the week. ISBN but it is 0-89676-234-3. : :Thanks for your interest. : :Ralph Pine :Quite Specific Media Group Ltd., 260 Fifth Ave., New York, NY 10001. (212) :725-5377 v. (212) 725-8506 f. www.quitespecificmedia.com. Imprints: Drama :Publishers, Costume & Fashion Press, By Design Press, Jade Rabbit, :EntertainmentPro - -----Original Message----- From: snowfire@mail.snet.net To: h-costume@indra.com Date: Thursday, April 08, 1999 8:52 AM Subject: Re: H-COST: Alcega > >-Poster: snowfire@mail.snet.net > > >>Marsha McLean wrote: >>Re: the Alcega book >>> It has patterns for many styles of men'sand women's dress: round gowns, >>> loose gowns, kirtles, petticoats, mourning gowns, many many things, mens: >>etc. > >M'lady, could you please post the details on this book? And also, I wonder, >what is the time-span the patterns are drawn from? > >Elysant de Holtham > _________________________________________________________________ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME > > _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: griffinhold@usa.net Date: 8 Apr 99 23:33:52 MDT Subject: H-COST: Vienna - -Poster: griffinhold@usa.net Hello; For the person with time in Vienna, you should know that the HRE garments= as well as the Golden Fleece vestments are in the Treasury, not the Kunsthistoriches. Same area, just different building and separate entran= ce price. Also, there was a display of late 1800's and 1900's clothing at the Museu= m of the City of Vienna as of Christmas time when I was there. Hope this helps and have a wonderful time! Lyn Gillespie ____________________________________________________________________ Get free e-mail and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=3D= 1 _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ------------------------------ From: Mary Denise Smith Date: Fri, 09 Apr 1999 07:37:26 -0600 Subject: Re: H-COST: Alcega info - -Poster: Mary Denise Smith Hello List, Please note that English/European purchasers can get the Alcega book on amazon.co.uk Search under "Alcega". Hope this helps, Mary Denise Smith _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majord