From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Fri Oct  1 07:29:39 1999
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From: pulliam@acadia.net (Deborah Pulliam)
Subject: H-COST: velvet vs. velveteen
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-Poster: pulliam@acadia.net (Deborah Pulliam)

<<Most  velvet is Rayon.  It's very shiny and slippery.

Velveteen is usually cotton.  It's not shiny and it isn't slippery.  >>

This is strictly modern, of course.

There is a huge difference between velvet and velveteen, because they are
two completely different weave structures, and both can be made with any
fiber (i.e. you could have cotton velvet, and silk velveteen.)

Velvet is a supplementary warp structure, and is woven in two layers that
must be cut apart (as in cut velvet.) In other words, the pile comes from
extra warp. In velveteen, extra weft creates the pile. According to
Florence Montgomery, velveteen was *new* in 1776, as an improvement on
velveret (which is not smooth, but ribbed like modern corduroy, and dates
no earlier than the eary 18c.)

<<would it behave differently because of some difference in the woven
structure?>>

Yes, very definitely. It would behave differently because of the fiber as
well -- some early velvets had linen warps and wool or mohair piles, for
instance.


Deborah


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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Fri Oct  1 07:36:41 1999
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From: "Christopher Ballis" <stilskin@netspace.net.au>
To: <ICG-L@lists.best.com>, <f-costume@indra.com>, <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: H-COST: CC20 payments
Date: Fri, 1 Oct 1999 16:37:06 +1000
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-Poster: "Christopher Ballis" <stilskin@netspace.net.au>

To clarify the upgrade payment for Costume-Con 20 memberships...

If you have paid a supporting or pre-supporting amount, simply pay the
balance to bring your full amount up to the going rate...

eg: I have paid US$25 and want to buy full membership, I must pay US$35 to
bring it to the full amount of US$60.

I have paid A$40 and want to buy full membership, I must pay A$60 to bring
it to the full amount of A$100.

I have paid C$30 and want to buy full membership, I must pay C$70 to bring
it to the full amount of C$100.

I have paid $1,000,000 and want a refund down to the correct amount, I am
sunk because they will just use my money to go to Rio.

A note on the different amounts in different countries:
The amounts people are paying in various countries are more-or-less equal,
that is, they are keyed to average exchange rates between currencies and
were rounded down to the nearest ten bucks at the time they were set.

The same process of keeping payments equal will be used when the price hike
happens in December, 2001.

If your currency is not represented in the price scales, either contact us
or (go out on a limb and) send us the equivalent of $100 Australian.


-C.
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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Fri Oct  1 08:17:00 1999
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Message-ID: <ca1ce29f.25261167@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 1 Oct 1999 09:30:15 EDT
Subject: Re: H-COST: Cavalier visual weight gain
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-Poster: AlbertCat@aol.com

In a message dated 10/01/1999 4:00:37 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
kayta@slip.net writes:

<< 
 >I don't like the Cavalier look much either; it's the only style I've seen 
 >that can make a woman gain 20 visual pounds just by putting it on.
 
 Funny - on my they take off about 20 pounds.  200 - 20 = not too bad.
  >>

LOL...good one.

Like the 1830-40s comment, I just don't get it. Fay Dunnaway doesn't look fat 
in "3 Musketeers"....and the camera is supposed to add 20 lb.!

All these periods, 1830s 1840s 1630s, suffer [like 1800s] if the fabrics are 
not "just so"....usually light and airy. The real 1830s dress we put on 
Jasmine Guy in "Queen" was very fine, with a delicate yellow swirling pattern 
printed on it. The Gigot sleeves were not clunky [like you can get in the 
1890s] but a ball of air. The whole gown moved at the slightest breeze. 
Absolutely beautiful.
The 1840s is another period I love. The "plainness" of the designs with, 
again, fantastic fabrics being the key to decoration [as opposed to braids 
and ribbons] if any.

About the only period I can truly see difficulty getting into the aesthetic 
is that brief stint in 1820s...where the waist is not quite at the waist but 
not under the bust either, and the hem is laden with all manner of appliqué & 
trims. But, as with every period, with the right hat, lace collar, shawl, 
mitts... accessories ....it comes to life and gets me excited.
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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Fri Oct  1 09:47:34 1999
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From: "Penny Ladnier" <penny.creative.outlets@erols.com>
To: "h-costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: H-COST: Technical Problems
Date: Fri, 1 Oct 1999 10:58:10 -0400
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-Poster: "Penny Ladnier" <penny.creative.outlets@erols.com>

I am sorry some of you had problems getting into the Ball yesterday.  One of
our server lines went down yesterday, which bogged down the other servers.
First problem in two years, that's a pretty good record. The problem is
fixed, and you may now play on the Ball without problems.  To go to the
Ball, http://www.costumegallery.com/Costume_Ball/99/attend.htm  I did add
two more historic costume pages to the Ball last night.

Later... Penny
http://www.costumegallery.com


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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Fri Oct  1 10:38:41 1999
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Date: Fri, 01 Oct 1999 12:01:13 -0500
From: Hope Greenberg <hope.greenberg@uvm.edu>
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Subject: H-COST: More (New) Tudor Images
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-Poster: Hope Greenberg <hope.greenberg@uvm.edu>

I've added a few more images to the Tudor dress page. This time the
images are taken from monumental brasses, a medium which, despite its
obvious limitations, often offers some interesting details. Check it out
at:
http://www.uvm.edu/~hag/sca/tudor


- Hope
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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Fri Oct  1 12:00:45 1999
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Date: Fri, 01 Oct 1999 10:16:59 -0700
Subject: Re: H-COST: Re:recycling favorite
From: "R.L. Shep" <rlshep@home.com>
To: h-costume@indra.com
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-Poster: "R.L. Shep" <rlshep@home.com>

Fred Harvey is a name associated with Navajo rugs - it may be with other
things too.
The Fred Harvey company was known for purchasing hundreds of thousands of
red-back-white-grey blankets or rugs from the Hubbel trading post area and
selling them to the *anglo* market. In fact this practice was often known as
blankets or rugs by the pound as they were often paid for by weight and not
for their artistic value. Mass buying created a demand and weavers strove to
weave more of this type rug so that they could sell them.
It must be remembered that Navajo Rugs were originally *blankets* not to be
confused with what we would put on a bed - they were worn, much like
blankets are worn in India.  In that regard they are definitely historic
costume.
~!~ R.L.Shep
http://www.rlshep.com

----------
>From: Carolyn Kayta Barrows <kayta@slip.net>
>To: h-costume@indra.com
>Subject: Re: H-COST: Re:recycling favorite
>Date: Fri, Sep 24, 1999, 10:37 AM
>

>
>-Poster: Carolyn Kayta Barrows <kayta@slip.net>
>
>Also
>>in that day's haul were three sterling silver Harvey (something - named
>>after the tourist store) bracelets from like the 1930's, also @$5. each.
>
>I think the name given that kind of bracelet is Fred Harvey, but I haven't
>been to the Grand Canyon lately to check.  They're a flat strip of silver
>with stamped designs in them, allegedly telling a story.
>
>
>Kayta
>     ////.\\\
>    ////-@@\\\
>   ((((   7 (((
>     |   -- ))))
>     * )   (((((
>  /----\   /---\
>


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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Fri Oct  1 12:00:46 1999
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From: "Chris and Trish Makowski" <roecourt@mindspring.com>
To: <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: H-COST: Sari Silk
Date: Fri, 1 Oct 1999 12:13:43 -0500
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-Poster: "Chris and Trish Makowski" <roecourt@mindspring.com>


It's made
>of silver-threaded pale blue silk sari silk

Here's an question:

Could you use sari silk as a part of Elizabethan or Tudor?
Anya

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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Fri Oct  1 12:01:57 1999
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Date: Fri, 01 Oct 1999 10:18:25 -0700
Subject: Re: H-COST: FYI--cheap velveteen!
From: "R.L. Shep" <rlshep@home.com>
To: h-costume@indra.com
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-Poster: "R.L. Shep" <rlshep@home.com>

Velvet also come in silk.  It is very nice.
~!~ R.L.Shep
http://www.rlshep.com

----------
>From: Carolyn Kayta Barrows <kayta@slip.net>
>To: h-costume@indra.com
>Subject: Re: H-COST: FYI--cheap velveteen!
>Date: Fri, Sep 24, 1999, 10:25 AM
>

>
>-Poster: Carolyn Kayta Barrows <kayta@slip.net>
>
>
>>Velvets also come in a cotton/rayon (like Matinee' velvet), 100% cotton
and
>>wool. 
>
>Wool velvet is called plush, and is available thru teddy bear making supply
>houses.  It's seriously expensive.
>
>
>Kayta
>     ////.\\\
>    ////-@@\\\
>   ((((   7 (((
>     |   -- ))))
>     * )   (((((
>  /----\   /---\
>


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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Fri Oct  1 12:23:41 1999
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Date: Fri, 01 Oct 1999 10:29:50 -0700
From: Merouda the True of Beaumaris <keltia@serv.net>
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-Poster: Merouda the True of Beaumaris <keltia@serv.net>

> Could you use sari silk as a part of Elizabethan or Tudor?

It would probably have to be interlined to give it stability, it's
pretty drapey stuff.

Cynthia
--
Cynthia Long
Merouda the True of Beaumaris
Barony of Madrone
Kingdom of An Tir


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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Fri Oct  1 12:24:32 1999
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Date: Fri, 01 Oct 1999 10:32:41 -0700
Subject: Re: H-COST: Sari Silk
From: "R.L. Shep" <rlshep@home.com>
To: h-costume@indra.com
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-Poster: "R.L. Shep" <rlshep@home.com>

There is no such thing as *sari silk*.  This sounds like there is a type of
silk known as sari silk and there is no such thing.
Do you mean silk that was woven to be used as a saree?
~!~ R.L.Shep
http://www.rlshep.com

----------
>From: "Chris and Trish Makowski" <roecourt@mindspring.com>
>To: <h-costume@indra.com>
>Subject: H-COST: Sari Silk
>Date: Fri, Oct 1, 1999, 10:13 AM
>

>
>-Poster: "Chris and Trish Makowski" <roecourt@mindspring.com>
>
>
>It's made
>>of silver-threaded pale blue silk sari silk
>
>Here's an question:
>
>Could you use sari silk as a part of Elizabethan or Tudor?
>Anya
>


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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Fri Oct  1 12:41:25 1999
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From: "Cynthia Barnes" <Cynthia_Barnes@phoenix.com>
To: "H-Costume (E-mail)" <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: H-COST: improper attire
Date: Fri, 1 Oct 1999 10:52:21 -0700
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-Poster: "Cynthia Barnes" <Cynthia_Barnes@phoenix.com>



Kayta>  A friend of mine made a carefully researched 1870's bathing costume
just so
she could 'streak' Living History Days in it.

Thanks Kayta, glad you liked it!
--cin
Cynthia Barnes
408.570.1023
Cynthia_Barnes@phoenix.com
Phoenix Technologies
411 E. Plumeria Dr.
San Jose CA 95134
"I think animal testing is a terrible idea; they get all nervous and give
the wrong answers."

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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Fri Oct  1 12:45:19 1999
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-Poster: Margo Anderson <margo@directcon.net>

At 09:52 AM 09/24/1999 -0700, you wrote:
>
>-Poster: Carolyn Kayta Barrows <kayta@slip.net>
>
>I've had good luck with putting
>>it in a big plastic trash bag with a box of cornmeal, shaking vigorously,
>>and letting it sit for a day.  
>
>Do you mean cornmeal, or cornstarch?


Cornmeal.  the slight roughness of the particles dry shampoos the fur.
Cornstarch is good, too, but for removing oils.  I suppose you could use
both at once for dirt and oils.

Margo

"One Tough Costumer"
http://www.directcon.net/wander/main.htm

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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Fri Oct  1 13:01:43 1999
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From: Margo Anderson <margo@directcon.net>
Subject: Re: H-COST: Sari Silk
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-Poster: Margo Anderson <margo@directcon.net>

At 10:29 AM 10/01/1999 -0700, you wrote:
>
>-Poster: Merouda the True of Beaumaris <keltia@serv.net>
>
>> Could you use sari silk as a part of Elizabethan or Tudor?
>
>It would probably have to be interlined to give it stability, it's
>pretty drapey stuff.
>
I believe Janet Arnold once said that modern metallic brocaded sari fabrics
were the closest thing to Elizabethan brocades we can get today. 

 I don't see it, myself.  Even with substantial flatlining, the fabrics
don't have the same sorts of patterns.  Brocaded saris usually have a wide
decorated border on one selvedge, a narrower one on the other side, spot
motifs or an allover pattern on the body of the cloth, and an elaborately
decorated area about a foot deep on one end, for the part that goes over the
head. 

 Elizabethan brocades seem to have been allover patterns, not borders.  the
borders on skirts, etc, were usually separately embroidered guards.  

You could probably make sari fabric look good for Elizabethan if you chose
it well and cut judiciously, but I wouldn't use it as is, say, using the
brocaded border as the hem of a skirt. I think it would just look too much
like a sari.  

Now, if I won the lottery and price was no object for the Elizabethan of my
dreams (a scenario I spend much too much time daydreaming about)  I'd go to
one of the Italian decorator fabric houses, and get them to custom weave me
some real gold and silver tissue.  And then I'd go to Brussels and get some
lace made,  and to Paris to have Lesage embroider the guards, and.....

Margo

"One Tough Costumer"
http://www.directcon.net/wander/main.htm

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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Fri Oct  1 13:16:06 1999
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From: rio@austin.rr.com (StrangeGirl)
To: h-costume@indra.com
Subject: Re: H-COST: Sari Silk
Date: Fri, 01 Oct 1999 18:20:58 GMT
Organization: The Corner of my Desk
Message-ID: <37f4f5f6.111546427@smtp-server.austin.rr.com>
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-Poster: rio@austin.rr.com (StrangeGirl)

On Fri, 01 Oct 1999 10:32:41 -0700, the following was written in this
electric book by "R.L. Shep" <rlshep@home.com>:

>
>
>There is no such thing as *sari silk*.  This sounds like there is a type of
>silk known as sari silk and there is no such thing.
>Do you mean silk that was woven to be used as a saree?
>~!~ R.L.Shep

Actually, to be perfectly fair, *colloquially*, 'silk that was woven
to be used as a saree' is known by most non-East Indian people as
'sari silk' or just 'sari'. This usage is quite familiar to me from my
youth, when I lived in an area with a large East Indian population.

I knew lots of people who would refer to buying the silk that is
usually seen in sari-shop window displays as buying 'sari silk'.
Usually these people were purchasing it for period costume, but
sometimes my mother's freinds who bellydanced would refer to doing
this, to buy fabric for cabaret costumes.

The colloquial definition of the term 'sari silk' as I have heard it
used for most of my life:

	The fancy, often heavily figured light silks, often accented,
	 highlighted or shot with metallic threads, with woven-in border
	 patterns along one selvedge and often with woven borders on the
	 ends of the piece as well. This can often be had for much more
	 reasonable prices than other fancy figured silks, because the shops
	 that sell it generally keep their prices low to keep business
	 within the community.  

This is distinct from 'silk from India' because that covers so many
different types of fabric. Interestingly, ikat, even if intended to
worn as a sari, always seems to be described as ikat. 

The abbreviation 'sari silk' for the above rather long definition has
also been heard to be used by freinds of mine from the east cost, who
did not pick it up from me, but from colloquial use in their area. I
asked, because I wasn't sure it was the same colloquial use that I
knew.

Satisfied?

Margery
"Do you have any files?"
"We're the government, of course we have files."
Millenium
{*to reply take spambegone from my reply-to address*}
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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Fri Oct  1 13:35:02 1999
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Date: Fri, 01 Oct 1999 11:48:53 -0700
Subject: Re: H-COST: Sari Silk
From: "R.L. Shep" <rlshep@home.com>
To: h-costume@indra.com
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-Poster: "R.L. Shep" <rlshep@home.com>

It is not a question of being *satisfied*.  there are any number of silks
that can be used for sarees: mulberry, tussah, mugha as well as different
weights and weaves.
However it is nice to know what you are talking about.
~!~ R.L.Shep
http://www.rlshep.com

----------
>From: rio@austin.rr.com (StrangeGirl)
>To: h-costume@indra.com
>Subject: Re: H-COST: Sari Silk
>Date: Fri, Oct 1, 1999, 11:20 AM
>

>
>-Poster: rio@austin.rr.com (StrangeGirl)
>
>On Fri, 01 Oct 1999 10:32:41 -0700, the following was written in this
>electric book by "R.L. Shep" <rlshep@home.com>:
>
>>
>>
>>There is no such thing as *sari silk*.  This sounds like there is a type
of
>>silk known as sari silk and there is no such thing.
>>Do you mean silk that was woven to be used as a saree?
>>~!~ R.L.Shep
>
>Actually, to be perfectly fair, *colloquially*, 'silk that was woven
>to be used as a saree' is known by most non-East Indian people as
>'sari silk' or just 'sari'. This usage is quite familiar to me from my
>youth, when I lived in an area with a large East Indian population.
>
>I knew lots of people who would refer to buying the silk that is
>usually seen in sari-shop window displays as buying 'sari silk'.
>Usually these people were purchasing it for period costume, but
>sometimes my mother's freinds who bellydanced would refer to doing
>this, to buy fabric for cabaret costumes.
>
>The colloquial definition of the term 'sari silk' as I have heard it
>used for most of my life:
>
> The fancy, often heavily figured light silks, often accented,
>  highlighted or shot with metallic threads, with woven-in border
>  patterns along one selvedge and often with woven borders on the
>  ends of the piece as well. This can often be had for much more
>  reasonable prices than other fancy figured silks, because the shops
>  that sell it generally keep their prices low to keep business
>  within the community.  
>
>This is distinct from 'silk from India' because that covers so many
>different types of fabric. Interestingly, ikat, even if intended to
>worn as a sari, always seems to be described as ikat. 
>
>The abbreviation 'sari silk' for the above rather long definition has
>also been heard to be used by freinds of mine from the east cost, who
>did not pick it up from me, but from colloquial use in their area. I
>asked, because I wasn't sure it was the same colloquial use that I
>knew.
>
>Satisfied?
>
>Margery
>"Do you have any files?"
>"We're the government, of course we have files."
>Millenium
>{*to reply take spambegone from my reply-to address*}


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Date: Fri, 01 Oct 1999 14:59:56 -0400
From: Cynthia Virtue <cvirtue@thibault.org>
Organization: Virtue Ventures http://www.virtue.to
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-Poster: Cynthia Virtue <cvirtue@thibault.org>

Margo Anderson wrote:
> one of the Italian decorator fabric houses, and get them to custom weave me
> some real gold and silver tissue.  And then I'd go to Brussels and get some
> lace made,  and to Paris to have Lesage embroider the guards, and.....

I once saw, at Britex's ground floor, red-and-gold silk brocade with an
additional metallic gold thread, that looked *very* close to those 1400s
fancy brocades and figured velvets.  It was, however, $150/yard.  Drool.

--
The most outrageous lies that can be invented will find believers if a
person only tells them with all his might. --  Mark Twain
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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Fri Oct  1 13:52:43 1999
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-Poster: Margo Anderson <margo@directcon.net>


>I once saw, at Britex's ground floor, red-and-gold silk brocade with an
>additional metallic gold thread, that looked *very* close to those 1400s
>fancy brocades and figured velvets.  It was, however, $150/yard.  Drool.

I saw that, too.  I was tempted to grab the bolt and see just how fast I
could run.  

Margo

"One Tough Costumer"
http://www.directcon.net/wander/main.htm

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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Fri Oct  1 14:10:10 1999
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Date: Fri, 01 Oct 1999 15:23:32 -0400
From: Cynthia Virtue <cvirtue@thibault.org>
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-Poster: Cynthia Virtue <cvirtue@thibault.org>

Ok, Margo and I will form the nucleus of the new Britex Strike Team --
any other takers?

Meanwhile, for those with more lawful inclinations, I did see at Calico
Corners that they are selling 100% silk brocades, single colors, in
plausibly late medieval or early renaissance patterns.  They are in the
swatches to order section, and are about $80/yard.  (No, their website
does not list or show fabrics, alas.)

cv
--
For those going to Collegium in Cynagua next week, I'll be visiting and
doing a hat class.
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Subject: H-COST: Re: aesthetic dress
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-Poster: Gaelscot@aol.com



My impression is that aesthetic dress was actually more popular than you 
might guess today. A couple of years ago, when I was interested in 
reproducing an aesthetic gown, I couldn't find more than a handful of photos 
of any of them. But I found plenty of written references. It was popular 
enough for "Punch" to run cartoons about it, and Gilbert and Sullivan to 
write an operetta about it ("Patience" -- I've never seen it but the book is 
hilarious). In addition to dress, the "aesthetic" look was part of an entire 
look in furniture, decorating, dishes, and literature. So while it was daring 
and anti-fashion, it wasn't quite as counter-culture as the whole Bohemian 
thing, which is fascinating in itself.

Gail Finke
an aesthetic at heart . . .

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Date: Fri, 01 Oct 1999 13:38:19 -0700
From: Merouda the True of Beaumaris <keltia@serv.net>
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-Poster: Merouda the True of Beaumaris <keltia@serv.net>

> My impression is that aesthetic dress was actually more popular than you
> might guess today. [snip]  In addition to dress, the "aesthetic" look was part
> of an entire
> look in furniture, decorating, dishes, and literature. So while it was daring
> and anti-fashion, it wasn't quite as counter-culture as the whole Bohemian
> thing, which is fascinating in itself.

Can someone explain "aesthetic dress" to me?  Many thanks,
Cynthia

--
Cynthia Long
Merouda the True of Beaumaris
Barony of Madrone
Kingdom of An Tir


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Date: Fri, 01 Oct 1999 13:44:29 -0700
From: "The Adjutant's Office" <adjutant@asu.edu>
Subject: H-COST: Banner Silk--Slightly OT
To: h-costume@indra.com
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-Poster: "The Adjutant's Office" <adjutant@asu.edu>


Hi...

Does anyone know exactly what "banner silk" is and if it is still
available? I want to make a flag, but I'm not having much luck so far
finding the fabric....

Thanks...

Cynthia
adjutant@asu.edu
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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Fri Oct  1 17:50:50 1999
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Date: Fri, 01 Oct 1999 15:16:54 -0700
Subject: Re: H-COST: Sari Silk/lottery
From: "R.L. Shep" <rlshep@home.com>
To: h-costume@indra.com
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-Poster: "R.L. Shep" <rlshep@home.com>

Added to your lottery list might be a double ikat silk saree from Patan,
India.  These are often known as Patola.  There are only 2 families that
weave them now.
Price - around US$10,000.OO for a good saree.  Wheeeeeee!
I went there and bought a small piece of a ruined saree as a present for a
friend.
~!~ R.L.Shep
http://www.rlshep.com

----------
>From: Cynthia Virtue <cvirtue@thibault.org>
>To: h-costume@indra.com
>Subject: Re: H-COST: Sari Silk/lottery
>Date: Fri, Oct 1, 1999, 11:59 AM
>

>
>-Poster: Cynthia Virtue <cvirtue@thibault.org>
>
>Margo Anderson wrote:
>> one of the Italian decorator fabric houses, and get them to custom weave
me
>> some real gold and silver tissue.  And then I'd go to Brussels and get
some
>> lace made,  and to Paris to have Lesage embroider the guards, and.....
>
>I once saw, at Britex's ground floor, red-and-gold silk brocade with an
>additional metallic gold thread, that looked *very* close to those 1400s
>fancy brocades and figured velvets.  It was, however, $150/yard.  Drool.
>
>--
>The most outrageous lies that can be invented will find believers if a
>person only tells them with all his might. --  Mark Twain


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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Fri Oct  1 18:09:30 1999
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From: "Susan Carroll-Clark" <nicolaa@columbus.rr.com>
To: <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: H-COST: Sari Silk/lottery
Date: Fri, 1 Oct 1999 19:25:53 -0400
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-Poster: "Susan Carroll-Clark" <nicolaa@columbus.rr.com>

Greetings!

>Meanwhile, for those with more lawful inclinations, I did see at Calico
>Corners that they are selling 100% silk brocades, single colors, in
>plausibly late medieval or early renaissance patterns.  They are in the
>swatches to order section, and are about $80/yard.  (No, their website
>does not list or show fabrics, alas.)


Designer Fabric Outlet in Toronto (known to afficionados as the "Orange Bag
Store") carries some *wonderful* fairly-close-to-period (several periods,
depending on the design, later Middle Ages and Renaissance) silk brocades in
the $75-$90 CDN range.  I didn't win the lottery, but we did receive some
inheritance money that allowed me to buy some of a gorgeous red and gold
silk with stylized animals that really reminded me of some 13th century
textiles I saw at the V&A.

Susan

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From: "Lee" <smadsen@primenet.com>
To: <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: H-COST: Silk brocade
Date: Fri, 1 Oct 1999 14:53:07 -0700
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-Poster: "Lee" <smadsen@primenet.com>

All this talk about silk brocades got me to thinking; how about Chinese silk
brocades?  I'm wondering if the patterns can be justified for Elizabethan.
How much trade was coming in?  I have some heavy black with silver filigree
and gold crythamums on it...I can scan some, if you need a picture.

Kels

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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Fri Oct  1 18:38:37 1999
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From: "Vandy Simpson" <vsimpson@hurontario.net>
To: h-costume-digest@indra.com
Date: Fri, 1 Oct 1999 19:52:35 -0400
Subject: H-COST: "sari silk"
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-Poster: "Vandy Simpson" <vsimpson@hurontario.net>

Greetings.
 Well, on the whole, I've seen just too many costumes made from 
sari fabrics."Sari silk" and dupionni silk seem to have taken the 
world by storm in the last few years, and everyone's using them, 
whether they're appropriate or not.
 But I was judging at an arts competition this past weekend, and 
there was a very nice costume made out of a quite different quality 
of "Sari silk". It was much heavier and supple, with an all-over 
pattern. I think that perhaps there was too much "sari silk" in 
combination in the dress to suit the style and period, but the 
individual elements worked well, and the workmanship seemed to 
be exemplary.
 One of the fabrics used in the skirts had a distinctly Jacobean 
flavour to it.It was a very heavy cream silk with a brocaded pattern, 
and the sleeves were another heavy silk in red with a small all-over 
pattern in gold.
 A bit of overkill, perhaps, but certainly some appealing fabrics!

Vandy Simpson
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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Fri Oct  1 19:20:18 1999
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From: "Susan Carroll-Clark" <nicolaa@columbus.rr.com>
To: <h-costume@indra.com>, <h-costume-digest@indra.com>
Subject: Re: H-COST: "sari silk"
Date: Fri, 1 Oct 1999 20:38:12 -0400
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-Poster: "Susan Carroll-Clark" <nicolaa@columbus.rr.com>


-Greetings!

> But I was judging at an arts competition this past weekend, and
>there was a very nice costume made out of a quite different quality
>of "Sari silk". It was much heavier and supple, with an all-over
>pattern.

I think a lot of folks assume that all "sari silk" is light and floaty.  Not
so. If you're lucky enough to live in a city with a substantial East Indian
population and a number of "sari stores," you'll see a number of weights of
silk and types of patterning. Many of the more pricy saris have a fair bit
of weight to them, and so they "hang right." These are not fabrics that you
can see through when you hold them up to the light--quite the opposite!
Furthermore, they don't have the slubbed look of dupionni, but rather the
glow and sheen of high-quality, high-density silk.

I think I know the outfit Vandy describes, and the silks are indeed
stunning, and have earned the lady who made the outfit a jealous glance or
twenty.

Susan

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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Fri Oct  1 19:58:55 1999
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Date: Fri, 01 Oct 1999 18:15:21 -0700
To: h-costume@indra.com
From: Kris <i.wonder@L7.net>
Subject: Re: H-COST: Washing fur...
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-Poster: Kris <i.wonder@L7.net>

>-Poster: Margo Anderson <margo@directcon.net>
>Does it need to be washed because it has some Foul Substance on it, or is it
>just dirty and matted?  If it's the second, I've had good luck with putting
>it in a big plastic trash bag with a box of cornmeal, shaking vigorously,
>and letting it sit for a day.  Then take it out and throughly shake out the
>cornmeal.  You may need to vaccuum it gently.  

The difficulty is that I purchased it at a thrift shop, out of a bin. I
don't know what has been done to it, and I would like it to be....
sterilized somewhat before lining a hood with it..

Kris

Yes, I'm picky :]

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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Fri Oct  1 20:04:17 1999
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Date: Fri, 01 Oct 1999 18:16:52 -0700
To: h-costume@indra.com
From: "Carol J. Bell Cannon" <cjcannon@greymists.com>
Subject: Re: H-COST: Technical Problems
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-Poster: "Carol J. Bell Cannon" <cjcannon@greymists.com>

At 10:58 AM 10/01/1999, "Penny Ladnier" <penny.creative.outlets@erols.com>
wrote:
>I am sorry some of you had problems getting into the Ball yesterday.  One of
>our server lines went down yesterday, which bogged down the other servers.
>Later... Penny
        For the record, I didn't think it was anything you did, Penny.  I'm
glad to see it's fixed though--I really was looking forward to
visiting...thank you! Carol
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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Fri Oct  1 20:26:01 1999
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Date: Fri, 01 Oct 1999 18:41:05 -0700
To: h-costume@indra.com
From: Kris <i.wonder@L7.net>
Subject: Re: H-COST: Gamurra pleats
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-Poster: Kris <i.wonder@L7.net>

At 01:05 PM 30/09/99 -0400, you wrote:
>
>-Poster: Elizabeth Jones <ljones@us.oracle.com>
>Oh, I wanted to add about these pleats (to my previous long reply): They
>look like box pleats, as do my own knife pleats. I originally tried box
>pleats with this dress, but could not get the pleats full enough to
>provide that kind of volume, and yet not go beyond about 2" across. So I
>did this peculiar knife pleat: fold twice the width (about 4" across) in
>one direction, and then double back over itself. This ends up looking
>like a box pleat on the outside, but a knife pleat on the inside.  I did

I have a skirt where I knife pleated about 4.5 - 5 metres of fanric to a
32" waistband :] I used a rectangular piece of fabric, and it worked very
well, and actually looks quite similar (after going back and comparing
skirt to picture). I think I'm going to do it that way, because at least I
understand how they work & how much fabric I need...

Thanks so much for the help, tho..

Kris

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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Fri Oct  1 20:46:41 1999
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Date: Fri, 1 Oct 1999 22:00:32 EDT
Subject: Re: H-COST: Banner Silk--Slightly OT
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-Poster: AlbraKat@aol.com

Try Dharma Trading Co. in San Francisco.8005425227.They have various weights 
of 'banner silk'.We've ordered it from them by the bolt, although one can 
also purchase smaller amounts.We'ver used 5 mm(very lightweight) as well as 
8mm(heavier) The 8 mm wears better.Takes dyes beautifully.They sell dies, 
resists, and the tools for applying same.Nice folks to deal with.
Good luck!
Albra
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From: Margo Anderson <margo@directcon.net>
Subject: Re: H-COST: Washing fur...
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-Poster: Margo Anderson <margo@directcon.net>

  
>
>The difficulty is that I purchased it at a thrift shop, out of a bin. I
>don't know what has been done to it, and I would like it to be....
>sterilized somewhat before lining a hood with it..
>
Well, I don't know if you can actually sterilize fur, but if you're worried
about small creatures, you might want to seal it in a plastic bag and freeze
it for 48 hours.  

Margo

"One Tough Costumer"
http://www.directcon.net/wander/main.htm

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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Fri Oct  1 21:29:47 1999
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Date: Fri, 01 Oct 1999 19:46:06 -0700
To: h-costume@indra.com
From: Kris <i.wonder@L7.net>
Subject: Re: H-COST: Washing fur...
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-Poster: Kris <i.wonder@L7.net>

>-Poster: Margo Anderson <margo@directcon.net>
>Well, I don't know if you can actually sterilize fur, but if you're worried
>about small creatures, you might want to seal it in a plastic bag and freeze
>it for 48 hours.  

I like the sounds of this!
I must try it this week sometime :]

Thanks you!

Kris

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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Fri Oct  1 21:31:42 1999
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Date: Fri, 01 Oct 1999 19:47:04 -0700
From: Carolyn Richardson <benrumson@worldnet.att.net>
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Subject: Re: H-Costume Least-favourite styles (WAS: H-COST: New FO)
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-Poster: Carolyn Richardson <benrumson@worldnet.att.net>

lilinah@grin.net wrote:
> 
> -Poster: lilinah@grin.net
> 
> My least favorite style is the bustle dress of the 1870's and 1880's,
> especially the ones that have a very narrow skirt decorated with "garlands"
> of trim. It isn't the "big butt" of the bustle that bothers me. I don't
> like these dresses from the front.

Oh, this is my absolute *favorite* period - beats the early 1880's with
the "tea cart" bustle.  My best costume is an 1878 bustle with the
cuirass bodice and close fitting skirt and *yards* of ruffle - I get a
lot of compliments on it at costume events.

Carolyn
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Date: Fri, 01 Oct 1999 19:57:43 -0700
From: Carolyn Richardson <benrumson@worldnet.att.net>
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Subject: Re: H-COST: Sari Silk/lottery
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-Poster: Carolyn Richardson <benrumson@worldnet.att.net>

Margo Anderson wrote:
> 
> -Poster: Margo Anderson <margo@directcon.net>
> 
> >I once saw, at Britex's ground floor, red-and-gold silk brocade with an
> >additional metallic gold thread, that looked *very* close to those 1400s
> >fancy brocades and figured velvets.  It was, however, $150/yard.  Drool.
> 
> I saw that, too.  I was tempted to grab the bolt and see just how fast I
> could run.
> 
> Margo

Yeah, me too back in January 1998.  Giles and I sat there and fondled
it  for a while. <sigh>

Carolyn
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Date: Fri, 01 Oct 1999 20:07:29 -0700
From: Carolyn Richardson <benrumson@worldnet.att.net>
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Subject: Re: H-COST: Sari Silk
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-Poster: Carolyn Richardson <benrumson@worldnet.att.net>

Margo Anderson wrote:
> I believe Janet Arnold once said that modern metallic brocaded sari fabrics
> were the closest thing to Elizabethan brocades we can get today.
> 
>  I don't see it, myself.  Even with substantial flatlining, the fabrics
> don't have the same sorts of patterns.  Brocaded saris usually have a wide
> decorated border on one selvedge, a narrower one on the other side, spot
> motifs or an allover pattern on the body of the cloth, and an elaborately
> decorated area about a foot deep on one end, for the part that goes over the
> head.
> 
>  Elizabethan brocades seem to have been allover patterns, not borders.  the
> borders on skirts, etc, were usually separately embroidered guards.
> 
> You could probably make sari fabric look good for Elizabethan if you chose
> it well and cut judiciously, but I wouldn't use it as is, say, using the
> brocaded border as the hem of a skirt. I think it would just look too much
> like a sari.

I agree with what Margo said with regard to sari fabric and Elizabethans
- I haven't really seen one yet that I would think would fit the brocade
patterns of elizabethan.  

But as someone else said, sari come in a lot of weights.  I've
successfully used them for Regency (the light airy stuff) and 1870's
bustle dresses (this was an antique sari I got at a swap meet).  Many
sari are quite heavy, although with the current "fad" in Indian patterns
and fabrics they've also got rather expensive on the used market, which
is where I normally buy them.  I can still sometimes find them at thrift
stores like the Salvation army or Goodwill for around $20 for the good
light-weight silk ones.

For good heavy silk brocades, though, i think I'd be inclined to look
for Japanese kimono silk or obi.

Carolyn
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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Fri Oct  1 22:24:28 1999
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Date: Fri, 01 Oct 1999 20:26:06 -0700
From: Diana H <dch@inreach.com>
Organization: Well, I wouldn't call it organized......
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Subject: Re: H-COST: Magdalen sleeves
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-Poster: Diana H <dch@inreach.com>

Robin Netherton wrote:

> -Poster: Robin Netherton <robin@shell.nightowl.net>
>
> On Thu, 30 Sep 1999, Elizabeth Jones wrote:
>
> > >Well, first off, the dress she's seen wearing is her underdress,
> over
> > >which would have gone a fashionable gown (as is indicated by the
> fancy
> > >embroidered/brocaded sleeve).
>
> -- That isn't what I think I see.  Her sleeve has a pin, which leads
> me to
> -- believe that the sleeves are not part of a dress but, pinned on to
> make
> -- her plain and sleeveless gown more fashionable.
>
> > I believe the first set of comments is more accurate. This is a
> > representation of (dare I say it?) a kirtle or underdress. Sorry,
> don't
> > know the Flemish/French  term as we have already discussed. The
> sleeves
> > were pinned on to a short sleeved underdress, but would have shown
> under
> > her overdress - houppelande, etc.
>
> That was my assumption for a long time, no doubt because I read that
> explanation somewhere years ago. But after spending a lot of time
> studying
> 15th-century Flemish dress last year, I've been rethinking that idea.
> There's no doubt that the short-sleeved dress is an underdress, but
> once I
> started looking, I didn't see any pictures that jumped out at me as
> being
> examples of fancy false sleeves showing out from under the large
> sleeves
> of an overdress. In fact, most of the overdresses I saw
> contemporaneous
> with these short-sleeved underdresses had narrow sleeves, not wide
> ones
> that would show off a fancy undersleeve.
>
> That got me wondering whether the short-sleeved underdresses were
> developed specifically to be worn under the (relatively new)
> narrow-sleeved overdresses -- maybe to reduce warmth and bulk on the
> arm.

Diana here.....

While I normally know more about Italian than anything, I found this
style to be particularly interesting and so I did some searching and
here is what I found:

This Flemish style of chemise, short-sleeved overdress, then pinned-on
sleeve is shown in a number of paintings--just as is.  I have not
encountered a style of overdress where these sleeves show through.  That
doesn't mean they didn't do it, but I think the typical style of this
gown was just as you see in that picture of the Magdalen.

I have a photocopy that I got from a library book which unfortunately
has no particular painter credited but which does show three ladies
maids in various states of this dress.  One is reaching into some wash
water and is wearing a white chemise with sleeves that end between her
elbow and wrist.  Her overdress is a mottled yellow and brown (time-worn
paint maybe?) and on her right arm she is wearing one oversleeve in
blue.  The lady next to her has a rose-colored overgown which is lined
in gray and the skirt guarding is also gray.  She has an underskirt of
green and a slightly different green for her oversleeves which are both
being worn.  The third lady is wearing what appears to be an overdress
of green which is lined in white where the neckline is high and
everything matches.  Her dress is flipped up and she is wearing a white
dress underneath which has a band of grey at the bottom which appears to
be about halfway up her lower leg.

I hope that wasn't too confusing.  I believe that the purpose to this
style is that the decorative oversleeves could be of a very expensive
fabric to show off some pretty stuff because you wouldn't have to buy
much of it.  Also you would only wear them for fancy occasions or when
you weren't going to get them dirty.

Also take a look at this painting:

http://cgfa.kelloggcreek.com/weyden/p-weyden7.htm

Check out the lady on the far right and you will see her wearing the
same thing again.  You can also see that her dress is lined in a
different colored fabric because it is flipped up.  Also note the
obvious seam lines in the bodice and the seam line indicating a separate
skirt (i.e. not continuous princess line like a cotehardie).

HTH,

Diana :~>


* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
"There are too many mediocre things in life to deal with.....Love
shouldn't be one
 of them."
--Ione Skye in "Dream for an Insomniac"


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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Fri Oct  1 23:08:00 1999
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From: "Hope H. Dunlap" <hhdunlap@msn.com>
To: <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: H-COST: Pre-Revolution "New Amsterdam" Costume
Date: Sat, 2 Oct 1999 00:19:45 -0400
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-Poster: "Hope H. Dunlap" <hhdunlap@msn.com>

Using some of that cotton velvet so inexpensive now at
Walmart, this jacket is very long lived Dutch woman's
garment. Velvet on the outside, fur-lined on the inside.
With little variation, I have seen this in 1410 sculpture,
this in 1600's, and later into the late 18th Century.  I saw
a library book once which talked about the multi-ethnicity
of America before the Revolution (some things never change!)
and the costume depicted for the New York area looked like
this.  I think it was no accident that the Dutch seafaring
merchant traders created a great business setting like New
York:
http://sunsite.auc.dk/cgfa/m/p-metsu2.htm.
http://sunsite.auc.dk/cgfa/m/p-mierisi1.htm
Both images are Dutch around 1660, early, but will give you
the general idea.  I love the low armscye and the gathers on
the shoulder/sleeve seam in the second image, serving woman
at the rear.  For a lower class middle class woman, narrower
fur trim and a woolen skirt would be appropriate.  This is
an poor woman's costume closer to 1700, I believe:
http://sunsite.auc.dk/cgfa/v/p-vrel4.htm
and here a woman similar station in life in better detail:
 http://sunsite.auc.dk/cgfa/vermeer/p-vermeer8.htm.
The excellent resources in universities and museums in your
own area should reveal a greater degree of accuracy
regarding costume in New Amsterdam.  Sorry I wasn't able to
find anything closer in time period.


Hope H. Dunlap



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To: h-costume@indra.com
From: Julie Adams <savaskan@sd.znet.com>
Subject: Re: H-COST: FYI--cheap velveteen!
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-Poster: Julie Adams <savaskan@sd.znet.com>

>Wool velvet is called plush, and is available thru teddy bear making supply
>houses.  It's seriously expensive.

Cool! I got mine years ago at an apholstery shop in Santa Ana, CA. It was
made for auto apholstery I think. It is VERY thick and has 30% cashmere and
less than 1% of some synthetic (which is applied as a backing), but doesn't
look very teddybearish, so perhaps its a bit different. It makes GREAT
armor though... The nap is so full that I had to handsew all the banding
because it would just slip one way or the other. I called all over Orange
County CA to find it. It was about $32 at the time (12 yrs ago or so) but I
lucked out and found part of it as a 75% off remnant. I made my husband an
SCA fighting waffenrock and he still wears it. Overall it still looks ok,
but the velveteen banding has worn its nap away in places. The wool that
goes under his breastplate has been patched, but the skirt itself still
looks pretty good.

Julie Adams



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From: Dawn <dawn.wood1@virgin.net>
Organization: ages of elegance (http://www.ageofelegance.dabsol.co.uk)
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Subject: Re: H-COST: Pre-Revolution costume
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-Poster: Dawn <dawn.wood1@virgin.net>

Beth wrote:
> 
> HELP!!
> My local historical society is embarking on a project to costume the
> instructors who teach in their school programs.

If you are doing lower class then the easiest style to go for is the
bedgown which was worn throughout the 18thc but particularly in the
1740's and 50's. this is a  T-shape jacket about hip length which wraps
over and can fit universally there is a pattern for one in the cut of
women's clothes in the original tailors pattern section. I run a 1740's
-60's group in england and we have successfully made several of these
for slop chest so that new members can have something to wear at their
first event.
You should also  have pocket hoops which are more practical than full if
you are portraying working women.
 Any of the undress jackets in the relevant Janet Arnold book are
suitable but I wouldn't advise a full saque as these were only really
worn for dress and by higher ranking women at this date it being a
french fashion. There are some very nice mantua patterns in the COWC
which work well.
 Aim to use linen rather than cotton although cotton was used more in
the Americas than England and patterns can be stripes checks ginghams
and florals.
Caps can be various styles. the favourite of working women of the period
is the round eared cap, but also smaller ones with lappets are okay.    
Hope this helps

Dawn


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Date: Sat, 02 Oct 1999 11:29:25 -0700
From: Dawn <dawn.wood1@virgin.net>
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Subject: Re: H-COST: Sari Silk
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-Poster: Dawn <dawn.wood1@virgin.net>

Chris and Trish Makowski wrote:
> 
> -Poster: "Chris and Trish Makowski" <roecourt@mindspring.com>
>As I do alot of late 17th- early 19th c clothing I use a great deal of Indian silks as they are accurate for the period having been brought over to England via the East India Company.
 I am lucky enouch to live near an Indian community and so have access
to a many different sorts, wieghts etc. Many of the  silks are still
hand woven and vegetable dyed and so usually only about 8-10m are
available of a particular design which is perfect for exclusive clothing
(if not a sari). Costs over here are between £10-£20 for these which
isn't bad at all. last year there was a preponderance of 18thc style
designs which I matched to some original textiles in the V&A and they
were spookily similar, at the moment there are some smaller lozenge/
medallion weaves which are very Italian Renaissance and I am having a
hard job not to buy.
 I would only use an actual sari for late 1790's- 1810 as there are some
examples of dresses being made this way but otherwise if the weight was
okay I would cut the fabric up and use it just as 6 yards of beautiful
cloth for other periods.

Dawn


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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Sat Oct  2 07:06:56 1999
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Date: Sat, 02 Oct 1999 11:33:39 -0700
From: Dawn <dawn.wood1@virgin.net>
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Subject: Re: H-COST: Patterns etc
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-Poster: Dawn <dawn.wood1@virgin.net>

Margaret Bolger wrote:
> 
> -Poster: Margaret Bolger <Margaret_Bolger@compuserve.com>
> 
> Apologies if you are already aware of this, but I thought it might be of
> interest!
> 
> At my 'Antique Costume & Textiles Fair' last week, Lindy Pickard and Dave
> Rushworth were selling a whole load of patterns and handbooks - I think
> they have only recently started their business.
> 
> Their 45 patterns cover a number of periods : Viking, Medieval, 16thC,
> English Civil War, 18thC, 19thC  -  and range from trousers, tunics,
> doublets, hose, breeches, frock coats etc  in a wide range of sizes.
> 
> Their handbooks include : Medieval Women, medieval men, How to make
> Medieval Shoes, 17thC Women, 1798 French Revolutionary Uniform, 1812-15
> French Infantry Uniform.
> They also sell natural fibre textiles, buttons etc.
> 
> Their business is called Petty Chapman and is based in Yorkshire UK.  Tele:
> +44 (0) 1484.512968
> 
> If anyone wants more information and their address, please get in touch
> with me.  I also have a full list of the available patterns and handbooks.
> 
> (I have no connection with them - just passing information along!)
> 
> Margaret
> antique costume & textiles
> http://www.artizania.co.uk
Lindy and Dave have been re-enactors in England for a great many years
and are friends of mine they have done a great many periods between them
and also have a business selling cloth, patterns, buttons etc to
re-enactors over here.
the patterns aren't too bad although as with all patterns they are
generic and will not necessarily fit without altering to your own shape

dawn


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Date: Sat, 02 Oct 1999 08:30:50 -0400
From: Cynthia Virtue <cvirtue@thibault.org>
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Subject: Re: H-COST: Magdalen sleeves
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-Poster: Cynthia Virtue <cvirtue@thibault.org>

Diana H wrote many interesting things, and one for which I have a
different interpreation:

> http://cgfa.kelloggcreek.com/weyden/p-weyden7.htm
> 
> Check out the lady on the far right and you will see her wearing the
> same thing again.  You can also see that her dress is lined in a
> different colored fabric because it is flipped up.

I don't think that is her skirt; I think it is another piece of cloth,
perhaps a mantle, that is falling from around her shoulders and is
caught up on her skirt.  The 'crucifiction inside a church' painting has
another of these gathered mantles on the skirt.

You can see what I think is the edge of the mantle in the folds between
her knees -- which means that on her left knee we are seeing one side of
it, and after the edge, we're seeing the turned-back edge of the fabric,
and they are the same color.

cv
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Date: Sat, 2 Oct 1999 10:15:55 -0500 (CDT)
From: Robin Netherton <robin@shell.nightowl.net>
To: Historic Costume List <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: H-COST: Seeking a Folkwear pattern...
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-Poster: Robin Netherton <robin@shell.nightowl.net>


Somewhere, buried in my things, I thought I had a Folkwear pattern for the
Missouri Riverboatman's Shirt. The design is based on the shirt worn by
the riverboatmen in George Caleb Bingham's paintings. I have never used
the pattern (though I vaguely remember that I once talked to the designer
at the Missouri Historical Society, about 20 years ago).

I thought I might want to make one up for a friend of mine, and now I
can't find it. Maybe I never bought it after all, who knows. I did call
Lark Books, which is now publishing the Folkwear line, and they do have it
-- for $14.95 plus $3.95 shipping. That feels a little pricey for a whim
right now, so I'm not eager to buy it, yet.

If anyone on this list has an old copy of the pattern they would be
willing to part with at a reduced rate, I'd be interested. Email off-list
please.

--Robin

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From: "Henk 't Jong" <scapreel@tip.nl>
To: <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: H-COST: Gardecorps (was Houppelande)
Date: Sat, 2 Oct 1999 17:23:06 +0200
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-Poster: "Henk 't Jong" <scapreel@tip.nl>

Henk & Pauline 't Jong
tScapreel
Medieval Advisors
Dordrecht, Netherlands

Hi,

Claire wrote:
> Perhaps they just evolved as a kind of status symbol (after all, they
> do seem to have been worn largely by professional men). Looking at
> manuscript pictures the sleeves of gardecorps vary wildly in length and
> width. I wonder what a survey of gardecorps sleeve sizes correlated with
> manuscript dates would reveal ie are the shorter skinnier ones all in
> the early part of the 13th century? 

There appears during the 13th c a fairly narrow, slender surcotte with a
hood and short sleeves to about mid forearm, not too wide at the cuff,
which sleeves are also portrayed as hanging loose from the shoulder. In
other words: there must be a slit in this sleeve, at about the same place
as in a gardecorps sleeve. You see this surcotte also with the arms in the
sleeves, but then the slit is not visible. The space in which you have to
manoeuvre your arms through the slit looks to me to be pretty tight, but
one day I'll have to try this out.

The point is: this may be the forerunner of the gardecorps, were it not for
the fact that they seem to be worn during the same period. I haven't as yet
found a similar garment before ca 1230, though. You may ask yourself in the
mean time: why would they want to have the arms free from these relatively
short sleeves: they don't interfere with work...

Funny guys, these medieval people...

Henk


>
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
> Claire F. Clarke       "What is this world if, full of care, 
> Physicist, writer,     We have no time to stand and stare?"
> and non environmentally                     Robert Louis Stevenson
> friendly substance.
>
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
> 
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From: "David Stamper & Eve Harris" <evedave1@netcom.ca>
To: <h-costume@indra.com>
References: <199910012358.TAA09810@hurontario.net>
Subject: Re: H-COST: "sari silk"
Date: Sat, 2 Oct 1999 11:36:23 -0400
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-Poster: "David Stamper & Eve Harris" <evedave1@netcom.ca>

Vandy said..

> individual elements worked well, and the workmanship seemed to be
exemplary. One of the fabrics used in
> the skirts had a distinctly Jacobean flavour to it.It was a very
heavy cream silk with a brocaded pattern,
> and the sleeves were another heavy silk in red with a small all-over
pattern in gold.
>  A bit of overkill, perhaps, but certainly some appealing fabrics!

and then Susan said...

>I think I know the outfit Vandy describes, and the silks are indeed
>stunning, and have earned the lady who made the outfit a jealous
glance or
>twenty.

(delurking abruptly) Geee...wouldn't I love it if this thread is
actually talking about *my* dress, which I showed at an A&S comp last
Saturday in Cookstown.

Even if it ain't, I'll talk about it anyhow.

Italian Renaissance dresses, c.1470. Underdress in crimson silk, knife
pleats, with the bodice made from the heavily brocaded endpieces of
the original sari, one side red, one side green, smooth as a glove.
Overdress as described, cartridge pleated, heavy cream silk with a
lovely flower pattern in silver and gold that's actually pretty
period, long hanging sleeves in red with small repeating gold bars.
The bodice of the overdress is a really richly brocaded red piece from
the end of the white sari. The white is bordered top and bottom with
red brocaded gold and silver. Completely handsewn with tiny wee
stitches that owe a lot to the drone of David Usher (of Moist fame).

And I am so happy about it that I almost want to have it insured.

Eve Harris

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Date: Sun, 3 Oct 1999 07:51:37 -0400 (EDT)
From: aleed <aleed@dnaco.net>
To: h-costume@indra.com
Subject: Re: H-COST: Sari Silk/lottery
In-Reply-To: <37F509B6.C2659832@thibault.org>
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-Poster: aleed <aleed@dnaco.net>

> 
> -Poster: Cynthia Virtue <cvirtue@thibault.org>
> 
> Ok, Margo and I will form the nucleus of the new Britex Strike Team --
> any other takers?

Sure!  I've always wanted to visit the place.  "Textile Liberation Army"
has a nice ring to it.

:)

Drea
> 
> Meanwhile, for those with more lawful inclinations, I did see at Calico
> Corners that they are selling 100% silk brocades, single colors, in
> plausibly late medieval or early renaissance patterns.  They are in the
> swatches to order section, and are about $80/yard.  (No, their website
> does not list or show fabrics, alas.)
> 
> cv
> --
> For those going to Collegium in Cynagua next week, I'll be visiting and
> doing a hat class.
> 

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Date: Sun, 3 Oct 1999 19:54:35 +0100
To: h-costume@indra.com
From: Jean Waddie <anne@montgomerie.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: H-COST: Sari Silk
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-Poster: Jean Waddie <anne@montgomerie.demon.co.uk>

In message <19991001184510.NPCM14188.mail.rdc1.wa.home.com@[24.9.58.36]>
, "R.L. Shep" <rlshep@home.com> writes
>
>-Poster: "R.L. Shep" <rlshep@home.com>
>
>It is not a question of being *satisfied*.  there are any number of silks
>that can be used for sarees: mulberry, tussah, mugha as well as different
>weights and weaves.
>However it is nice to know what you are talking about.
>~!~ R.L.Shep
>http://www.rlshep.com
>
>----------
If you get actual silk in Indian cloth shops, you are very lucky. All
those I've been into in the UK have a discreet sign near the door "All
fabrics 100% polyester"  They look so gorgeous, and it's so
disappointing.
-- 
Jean Waddie
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Date: Sun, 3 Oct 1999 15:16:46 EDT
Subject: H-COST: Larger Ruffs- Elizabethan
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-Poster: MzScahlett@aol.com

Gentle List

Okay, since I don't know what they're actually called, I'm going to call them 
"fairywing" ruffs.  Can anyone suggest a book with step by step instructions 
on all manner of Elizabethan Ruffs with specific instructions on how one 
creates and supports those wonderful (they look wired) sheer ruffs that 
surround the back of the head and frame the face?

I'd love to make a dress with such a ruff, but am unclear on how to best 
support it.

angela

+++++
Angela F. Lazear
Costumes & Custom Clothing
Theatrical Costume Design
"O, what a world of vile ill-favored faults  looks handsome in three hundred 
pounds a year!..."
The Merry Wives of Windsor, III, iv - W. Shakespeare

QUICK-LINK: http://come.to/costumes
FULL URL:  http://sj.znet.com/~thespian/angil/index.html
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From: rio@austin.rr.com (StrangeGirl)
To: h-costume@indra.com
Subject: Re: H-COST: Larger Ruffs- Elizabethan
Date: Sun, 03 Oct 1999 19:33:32 GMT
Organization: The Corner of my Desk
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-Poster: rio@austin.rr.com (StrangeGirl)

On Sun, 3 Oct 1999 15:16:46 EDT, the following was written in this
electric book by MzScahlett@aol.com:

>ns 
>on all manner of Elizabethan Ruffs with specific instructions on how one 
>creates and supports those wonderful (they look wired) sheer ruffs that 
>surround the back of the head and frame the face?
>
>I'd love to make a dress with such a ruff, but am unclear on how to best 
>support it.

Period Costume For Stage and Screen
Patterns for Women's Dress 1500 - 1800
Jean Hunnisett
ISBN 0-88734-610-3 (on my copy, which is almost 8 years old)

Since I'm unclear on which exactly you mean, I'll direct you to two:

For the open-in-front-to-frame-the-cleavage type of sheer wired
collar: Page 83, in the instructions for reproducing the Ditchley
portrait of QE1. Clear illustrations for the wire frame and how it is
attached to the bodice are given.

For the wired-into-place-ruff:
PP84-89, the chapter on making Ruffs. Particulary the illustration and
text on page 84, describing open ruffs and the supportasse. Pages
85-89 cover the construction and maintenance of  various types of
ruffs, both simple theatrical and more likely (but still theatrical)
reconstructions.

Margery
"Do you have any files?"
"We're the government, of course we have files."
Millenium
{*to reply take spambegone from my reply-to address*}
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From: Diana H <dch@inreach.com>
Organization: Well, I wouldn't call it organized......
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References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.990930210233.3378H-100000@shell.nightowl.net> <37F57B4D.11E65C53@inreach.com> <37F5FACF.E119CDD7@thibault.org>
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-Poster: Diana H <dch@inreach.com>

Cynthia Virtue wrote:

> -Poster: Cynthia Virtue <cvirtue@thibault.org>
>
> Diana H wrote many interesting things, and one for which I have a
> different interpreation:
>
> > http://cgfa.kelloggcreek.com/weyden/p-weyden7.htm
> >
> > Check out the lady on the far right and you will see her wearing the
>
> > same thing again.  You can also see that her dress is lined in a
> > different colored fabric because it is flipped up.
>
> I don't think that is her skirt; I think it is another piece of cloth,
>
> perhaps a mantle, that is falling from around her shoulders and is
> caught up on her skirt.  The 'crucifiction inside a church' painting
> has
> another of these gathered mantles on the skirt.
>
> You can see what I think is the edge of the mantle in the folds
> between
> her knees -- which means that on her left knee we are seeing one side
> of
> it, and after the edge, we're seeing the turned-back edge of the
> fabric,
> and they are the same color.
>

  Cynthia & List,

I apologize for my haste in calling the contrasting fabric in this
picture the lining of the skirt.  Upon closer examination Cynthia is
correct and the different colored fabric is indeed some type of mantle
or other over-garment.  In the picture I referenced about the three
ladies maids, however, it clearly shows that the skirts were pulled up
and a contrasting skirt lining is present.

Sorry for any confusion I may have caused.

Diana :~>

--

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
"There are too many mediocre things in life to deal with.....Love
shouldn't be one
 of them."
--Ione Skye in "Dream for an Insomniac"


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Date: Sun, 3 Oct 1999 15:43:29 EDT
Subject: Re: H-COST: Larger Ruffs- Elizabethan
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-Poster: MzScahlett@aol.com

In a message dated 10/3/1999 12:37:49 Pacific Daylight Time, 
rio@austin.rr.com writes:

<< Period Costume For Stage and Screen
 Patterns for Women's Dress 1500 - 1800
 Jean Hunnisett
 ISBN 0-88734-610-3 (on my copy, which is almost 8 years old)
  >>

Thanks so much for pointing me in the right direction. Heck, I've even got 
the book, I don't know why I didn't think to check my library first!  I think 
with all the talk of ruffs on the list awhile back, I was thinking of them 
more like corsets, with a separate resource being the only way to go.

Okay, but now that you made it so easy to find, I've got to get started that 
much sooner!

angela
+++++
Angela F. Lazear
Costumes & Custom Clothing
Theatrical Costume Design
"Do you not know I am a woman?.  When I think, I must speak."
As You Like It; III, ii - W. Shakespeare
QUICK-LINK: http://come.to/costumes
FULL URL: http://sj.znet.com/~thespian/angil/index.html
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Date: Sun, 03 Oct 1999 17:30:28 -0700
Subject: Re: H-COST: Sari Silk
From: "R.L. Shep" <rlshep@home.com>
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-Poster: "R.L. Shep" <rlshep@home.com>

The Indians often like polyester because it is *wash and wear*.    The first
time I went to stay with a family in India I was told to bring polyester
sarees from the US.  I did and felt awful about it.  They liked them for
everyday sarees.  But I finally bought my hostess a very fine silk saree
there - which cost me about US$100 and she treasures it to this day.
~!~ R.L.Shep
http://www.rlshep.com

----------
>From: Jean Waddie <anne@montgomerie.demon.co.uk>
>To: h-costume@indra.com
>Subject: Re: H-COST: Sari Silk
>Date: Sun, Oct 3, 1999, 11:54 AM
>

>
>-Poster: Jean Waddie <anne@montgomerie.demon.co.uk>
>
>In message <19991001184510.NPCM14188.mail.rdc1.wa.home.com@[24.9.58.36]>
>, "R.L. Shep" <rlshep@home.com> writes
>>
>>-Poster: "R.L. Shep" <rlshep@home.com>
>>
>>It is not a question of being *satisfied*.  there are any number of silks
>>that can be used for sarees: mulberry, tussah, mugha as well as different
>>weights and weaves.
>>However it is nice to know what you are talking about.
>>~!~ R.L.Shep
>>http://www.rlshep.com
>>
>>----------
>If you get actual silk in Indian cloth shops, you are very lucky. All
>those I've been into in the UK have a discreet sign near the door "All
>fabrics 100% polyester"  They look so gorgeous, and it's so
>disappointing.
>-- 
>Jean Waddie


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-Poster: Margo Anderson <margo@directcon.net>

Is there a problem with the list?  After a weekend away, I have many fewer
messages than I would normally expect, and a few of them seem to be
responses to posts I haven't seen.

Margo

"One Tough Costumer"
http://www.directcon.net/wander/main.htm

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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Sun Oct  3 23:17:05 1999
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From: "Arianne de Dragonnid  mka Grace Payne" <arianne@blackroot.org>
To: "h-costume@indra.com" <h-costume@indra.com>
Date: Mon, 04 Oct 99 00:19:08 
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-Poster: "Arianne de Dragonnid  mka Grace Payne" <arianne@blackroot.org>

On Wed, 22 Sep 1999 , Elysant asked several questions concerning the 14th century style of cotehardie, as 
worn in France.

My apologies if this was answered already, but your last question struck a nerve:

>And lastly, I am assuming that a loose sleeveless surcote of a more ornate or 
>heavier but complimentary fabric, perhaps trimmed with fur or trim would be 
>worn over the dress (below knee length and bell shaped).  Am I correct? 

It sounds like you are describing a type of surcote I have heard described as a "Spanish Surcote".  I have no 
idea if it was actually worn in period, as I haven't study Spanish styles and haven't run across it elsewhere, 
but my personal opinion is that it is a particularly unattractive style.  The French surcotes I've seen pictures of 
were all floor length or longer (as were the cotehardies), mostly puddle-length.  The precise cut of the top 
varied, getting narrower as time went on, and the skirts were all very full.  The ones that don't appear to have 
a train are nearly all shown at the wrong angle for a train to be visible anyway.  The fourteenth century, and 
the fifteenth as well, was an era in which people wanted to use as much costly fabric as possible in their 
gowns, to show off how rich they were.  Your ideas for fabric and trimmings sound appropriate, and lovely.

Regarding your other two questions:

>Firstly, how and where is the dress fastened?   

I've heard arguments for closing the cotehardie under the arms, down the front, and down the back.  Lacing 
is possible and acceptable for all of these, and buttoning is suitable for closing down the front.  I don't like side 
lacing and can't think of any pictures where it looked like the gown laced there.  I've not seen any sign in the 
pictures that gowns were closed up the front, but that could be simply artistic license.  I close mine up the 
back with lacing, through holes set an inch apart from my waist or derriere up.  I line and face the fabric, but 
don't find I need any boning.

>Secondly, what kind of headgear would be worn with the gown if one is 
>attempting to depict a 14th century French Lady? 

A veil, certainly, topped with a circlet if appropriate or with a turret ( in SCA lingo, a pillbox).  Gorgets don't 
seem to have been very popular, but the tight wimple seems to have been, at least with the older crowd.  This 
is the one that actually appears to have been fitted and must have buttoned or laced closed somehow, 
assumably down the back.  From the artwork I would have to say that it seems to have been very popular to 
wear one's hair so it showed -- generally in braids.  Braids were rolled in buns, looped beside the face, or 
stuffed into metal cages to hang beside the lady's face.  The era of "silly hats" had not yet come, a plus for 
those of us who can fit a cotehardie perfectly but grow faint at the thought of making one of THOSE 
creations!


Yours in the Dream,
	Arianne de Dragonnid

Shire of Castlemere, Kingdom of Trimaris

%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%

"The founder of my noble line was wont to see Dragons.  His Lady rode out from the forest 
in a gown of samite and was as young on the day he died as on their wedding day."

%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%

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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Mon Oct  4 01:07:09 1999
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-Poster: Charlene Charette <charlene@flash.net>

Someone mentioned compiling a medieval clothing glossary.  I stumbled
across one at http://www.trail.com/~ri/garb.htm.  I just did a quick
glance (I was looking for something else) so I don't how good the page
is.

--Charlene

--
If you must choose between two evils, pick the one you've never tried
before.


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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Mon Oct  4 10:13:18 1999
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From: "Henk 't Jong" <scapreel@tip.nl>
To: <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: H-COST: missing messages
Date: Mon, 4 Oct 1999 17:26:00 +0200
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-Poster: "Henk 't Jong" <scapreel@tip.nl>

Henk & Pauline 't Jong
tScapreel
Medieval Advisors
Dordrecht, Netherlands

Margo wrote:
> Is there a problem with the list?  After a weekend away, I have many
fewer
> messages than I would normally expect, and a few of them seem to be
> responses to posts I haven't seen.

Me too: yesterday 5 mails, now 10, which is way below average...

Henk

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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Mon Oct  4 10:21:57 1999
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From: Sarah Toney <sarah_and_pooh@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: H-COST: missing messages
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-Poster: Sarah Toney <sarah_and_pooh@yahoo.com>

> Me too: yesterday 5 mails, now 10, which is way
> below average...

See, now this is the ONLY message I have received
today... odd

Sarah

> 
> Henk
> 
> 


=====

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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Mon Oct  4 10:58:45 1999
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From: "Vince Lyons" <vjlyons@snip.net>
To: <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: H-COST: Regency Trims
Date: Mon, 4 Oct 1999 12:10:34 -0400
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-Poster: "Vince Lyons" <vjlyons@snip.net>

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_002B_01BF0E61.767BBAA0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
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Cheers everyone!

I'm looking for sources for trim that would be appropriate on an =
1810-ish evening gown.  Im thinking of using a *lot* of small rosettes, =
I'm not up to making them myself and the type you generally find in the =
notions departments just seem a bit too "commercial-looking".

Thanks for any and all info!
~*~Kerrie~*~



------=_NextPart_000_002B_01BF0E61.767BBAA0
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2614.3500" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000080 face=3DArial size=3D2><EM>Cheers=20
everyone!</EM></FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000080 face=3DArial size=3D2><EM>I'm looking for =
sources for trim=20
that would be appropriate on an 1810-ish evening gown.&nbsp; Im thinking =
of=20
using a *lot* of small rosettes, I'm not up to making them myself and =
the type=20
you generally find in the notions departments just seem a bit too=20
"commercial-looking".</EM></FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000080 face=3DArial size=3D2><EM>Thanks for any and =
all=20
info!</EM></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000080 face=3DArial =
size=3D2><EM>~*~Kerrie~*~</EM></FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_002B_01BF0E61.767BBAA0--

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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Mon Oct  4 11:19:14 1999
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Date: Mon, 04 Oct 1999 11:41:43 -0500
From: Marc Carlson <marc-carlson@utulsa.edu>
Subject: Re: H-COST: Medieval clothing glossary
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-Poster: Marc Carlson <marc-carlson@utulsa.edu>

<Charlene Charette <charlene@flash.net>>
>Someone mentioned compiling a medieval clothing glossary.  I stumbled
>across one at http://www.trail.com/~ri/garb.htm.  I just did a quick
>glance (I was looking for something else) so I don't how good the page
>is.

Thank you, this is a very interesting attempt.

Marc
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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Mon Oct  4 14:47:28 1999
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Date: Sun, 3 Oct 1999 21:42:17 +0100
To: h-costume@indra.com
Cc: sca-garb@list.uvm.edu
From: Jean Waddie <anne@montgomerie.demon.co.uk>
Subject: H-COST: More (New) Tudor Images (long)
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-Poster: Jean Waddie <anne@montgomerie.demon.co.uk>

In message <37F4E8CC.6005@uvm.edu>, Hope Greenberg
<hope.greenberg@uvm.edu> writes
>
>-Poster: Hope Greenberg <hope.greenberg@uvm.edu>
>
>I've added a few more images to the Tudor dress page. This time the
>images are taken from monumental brasses, a medium which, despite its
>obvious limitations, often offers some interesting details. Check it out
>at:
>http://www.uvm.edu/~hag/sca/tudor
>
>- Hope

Hope, I haven't looked at this page before. Some nice early Tudor stuff
there, well done for picking it all out and putting it up. 

The Holbein "English Burgher's Wife" (the lady with the flyaway hat and
bunched up skirts) is also in Ashelford's Visual History - 16th Century.
I don't know if it's any clearer than in Lofts - the white strap appears
to be pinned down, at the side of the bust, and certainly doesn't
connect with the skirt hanger/girdle, which looks as if it disappears
around her waist, but no more clues than that.

The little girl in the Holbein sketch of a woman and her children -
surely these are the same pleats as in "the famous back views", and they
give the fullness to the skirt.  I think, from looking at the front view
of the "back views" (are you following?) and at the front two ladies of
Thomas More's family, Elizabeth Dauncey and Margaret Roper, the way
their skirts hang and move, I think they have the same centre back pleat
construction.  I am attempting to make a copy of Elizabeth Dauncey's
dress, with this back construction and a box pleat at the front of
either hip, which will somehow cunningly allow me to get in and out.
It's been sitting in the cupboard since March when I injured my wrist,
but when I manage to finish it I will let you know how it worked.

Lady Guildford - I hadn't spotted that the sleeves were pleated, I had
seen those as quilting lines.  That's interesting.  Presumably the
pleating is basically decorative, as other people achieve the same shape
of sleeve with non-pleated brocade. 

I have a question on something you may have figured out, but I haven't
yet - how do you do that particular knot they use on girdles, that ends
up with a loop sticking up?  Margaret Roper has it, as does the middle
lady in Princess Mary's pageants.  Any ideas?

Another book you may like to look at is the illustrated edition of
Antonia Fraser's "Six Wives of Henry VIII", published 1996 by Weidenfeld
and Nicholson, ISBN 029783567X.  You may have picked them all up
elsewhere, but it has some unusual pictures of the queens when young -
"before they were famous".

Thanks again for the resource,

Jean

-- 
Jean Waddie
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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Mon Oct  4 16:26:49 1999
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From: "Cynthia Barnes" <Cynthia_Barnes@phoenix.com>
To: "H-Costume (E-mail)" <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: H-COST: Dr. Piponniere's "Se Vetir Au Moyen Age"
Date: Mon, 4 Oct 1999 14:38:12 -0700
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-Poster: "Cynthia Barnes" <Cynthia_Barnes@phoenix.com>


I've been happily reading "Se Vetir Au Moyen Ages" and blithly recommended
it to Marc.

I heard a rumor that Dr. Piponniere's "Se Vetir Au Moyen Ages" was finally
translated into English.  Does anyone know 1) the truth of this rumor or 2)
what the English name of the book is.  She also has another, the French name
translates as something like "Costume at the Courts of Burgundy in the 14th
& 15th c" that was written in the '70s." Has anyone seen or read it & would
care to comment?

--cin
Cynthia Barnes
408.570.1023
Cynthia_Barnes@phoenix.com
Phoenix Technologies
411 E. Plumeria Dr.
San Jose CA 95134
"I think animal testing is a terrible idea; they get all nervous and give
the wrong answers."

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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Mon Oct  4 16:46:19 1999
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From: "Colleen McDonald Hinrichs" <Colleen@mackie.com>
To: h-costume@indra.com
Subject: Re: H-COST: Dr. Piponniere's "Se Vetir Au Moyen Age"
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-Poster: "Colleen McDonald Hinrichs" <Colleen@Mackie.com>

Yes, it's been translated.  I am pretty sure that "Dress in the Middle Ages" is the title of the translation.  If you search the 
book sellers by the author's last name, it should come up.

I have a copy, but haven't dug into it yet, so can't make a 
recommendation.

Regards,

Colleen McDonald Hinrichs
Seattle, WA

>>> "Cynthia Barnes" <Cynthia_Barnes@phoenix.com> 10/04 2:38 PM >>>

-Poster: "Cynthia Barnes" <Cynthia_Barnes@phoenix.com>


I've been happily reading "Se Vetir Au Moyen Ages" and blithly recommended
it to Marc.

I heard a rumor that Dr. Piponniere's "Se Vetir Au Moyen Ages" was finally
translated into English.  Does anyone know 1) the truth of this rumor or 2)
what the English name of the book is.  She also has another, the French name
translates as something like "Costume at the Courts of Burgundy in the 14th
& 15th c" that was written in the '70s." Has anyone seen or read it & would
care to comment?

--cin
Cynthia Barnes
408.570.1023
Cynthia_Barnes@phoenix.com 
Phoenix Technologies
411 E. Plumeria Dr.
San Jose CA 95134
"I think animal testing is a terrible idea; they get all nervous and give
the wrong answers."

 _________________________________________________________________
 To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com 
 with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME

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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Mon Oct  4 17:02:05 1999
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From: "Susan Carroll-Clark" <nicolaa@columbus.rr.com>
To: <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: H-COST: Dr. Piponniere's "Se Vetir Au Moyen Age"
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-Poster: "Susan Carroll-Clark" <nicolaa@columbus.rr.com>


Greetings!

>I've been happily reading "Se Vetir Au Moyen Ages" and blithly recommended
>it to Marc.
>
>I heard a rumor that Dr. Piponniere's "Se Vetir Au Moyen Ages" was finally
>translated into English.  Does anyone know 1) the truth of this rumor or 2)
>what the English name of the book is.  She also has another, the French
name
>translates as something like "Costume at the Courts of Burgundy in the 14th
>& 15th c" that was written in the '70s." Has anyone seen or read it & would
>care to comment?


Would this be "Dress in the Middle Ages"?  If so, yes, it has been
translated, and has been available for a couple of years now.  The author's
last name is definitely Piponniere.

Susan

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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Mon Oct  4 17:02:34 1999
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-Poster: "schuck@vci.net" <schuck@vci.net>


Since I subbed to this list I have added a lot of great h-costume links to my bookmarks (many thanks to you all!) To
clean up my bookmarks I posted a great many of them onto a page of my website. If you would like to look through them
please go to http://www.vci.net/~schuck . If there are any you think I should add to that list, please send your
recommendations to me privately. Thanks!
jb
schuck@vci.net

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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Mon Oct  4 17:34:28 1999
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From: "Michelle" <mandrake@mypad.com>
To: "costume list" <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: H-COST: Catherine of Aragon
Date: Mon, 4 Oct 1999 15:55:46 -0700
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-Poster: "Michelle" <mandrake@mypad.com>

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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Does anyone have any idea what the white trim? is on her shoulders?  It =
almost looks like her corset shows through her armhole but after closer =
inspection the paler fabric appears to be sewn on top. Since it is =
undecorated and looks to be a lesser cost weave, I am very confused as =
to what it's purpose is.=20
Michelle

http://www.uvm.edu/~hag/sca/tudor/cathyold1.jpg

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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>

<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.3110.7"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Does anyone have any idea what the =
white trim?=20
is on her shoulders?&nbsp; It almost looks like her corset shows through =
her=20
armhole but after closer inspection the paler fabric appears to be sewn =
on top.=20
Since it is undecorated and looks to be a lesser cost weave, I am very =
confused=20
as to what it's purpose is. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT><FONT =
size=3D2>Michelle</FONT></DIV><BR><A=20
href=3D"http://www.uvm.edu/~hag/sca/tudor/cathyold1.jpg">http://www.uvm.e=
du/~hag/sca/tudor/cathyold1.jpg</A></BODY></HTML>

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[InternetShortcut]
URL=http://www.uvm.edu/~hag/sca/tudor/cathyold1.jpg
Modified=00685C1ABB0EBF0167

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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Mon Oct  4 17:37:00 1999
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Date: Mon, 4 Oct 1999 18:51:27 EDT
Subject: H-COST: recycling, and a couple of questions
To: h-costume@indra.com
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-Poster: Appin1@aol.com

Several topics under one roof here.

First, best "thrift shop" purchase(s): A fuchsia wool jacket, a taupe skirt 
with fuchsia print, fuchsia shoes (in my size), and a silk blouse -- a whole 
business ensemble (scattered throughout the shop) for about $50 -- it was 
pretty "upscale." 

Yesterday, at a street fair in Baltimore, I picked up some great costume 
jewelry and a wonderous dress -- 1920s antique, I think. Completely covered 
with blue/silver/gold bugle beads in an Art Deco design (background is blue). 
Long sleeves, scoop neck, no fastenings. Absolutely awesome -- I spotted it 
across the street and RAN. It was $20. No, it doesn't fit me (yet) but it may 
be a Christmas present for a friend, unless I decide to lose enough weight to 
fit into it. It requires NO HIPS. My friend who was with me suggested that I 
fasten it to the refrigerator to inspire me.

Now, a couple of questions for the pros out there.

1) What iron would you recommend for costuming? I need something that will 
handle heavy-duty fabrics, velvets, as well as delicate sheers, do steaming, 
and is heavy enough to press down damasks.  Any ideas?

2) I am also in the market for a new sewing machine. I don't need much 
quilting ability or 10 different buttonholes, but once again, something 
versatile. The one I looked at seriously was a Viking (at about $1800), but I 
really didn't need all the features. I still drooled all over it.  
Recommendations?

Thanks.
Kathleen Norvell
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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Mon Oct  4 17:49:59 1999
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Date: Mon, 04 Oct 1999 18:05:16 -0500
To: h-costume@indra.com
From: "J,K,S&A Baird" <baird@rrnet.com>
Subject: H-COST: a couple of questions
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-Poster: "J,K,S&A Baird" <baird@rrnet.com>

At 06:51 PM 10/04/1999 -0400, you wrote:

>Now, a couple of questions for the pros out there.
>
>1) What iron would you recommend for costuming? I need something that will
>handle heavy-duty fabrics, velvets, as well as delicate sheers, do steaming,
>and is heavy enough to press down damasks.  Any ideas?


IRON--I have the EuroPro system and it works very well on all those items. 
Find one on sale.


>2) I am also in the market for a new sewing machine. I don't need much
>quilting ability or 10 different buttonholes, but once again, something
>versatile. The one I looked at seriously was a Viking (at about $1800), but I
>really didn't need all the features. I still drooled all over it.
>Recommendations?

SEWING MACHINE
Buy a Bernina, even if it's used, it's better than anything else out there.



>Thanks.
>Kathleen Norvell

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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Mon Oct  4 18:01:42 1999
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Subject: Re: H-COST: recycling/questions-sewing machines
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-Poster: MzScahlett@aol.com

In a message dated 10/4/1999 3:52:54 PM Pacific Daylight Time, Appin1@aol.com 
writes:

<<  I am also in the market for a new sewing machine. I don't need much 
 quilting ability or 10 different buttonholes, but once again, something 
 versatile. The one I looked at seriously was a Viking (at about $1800), but 
I 
 really didn't need all the features. I still drooled all over it.  
 Recommendations?
  >>

Kathleen,

I'd recommend a Pfaff. I have a new machine that is a basic electronic (I 
wanted to stay away, but on modern machines, it's not an option).  I prefer 
Pfaff due to the "walking foot" which is standard on their machines (if a 
model doesn't have one, don't buy it).  The walking foot was originated by 
Pfaff, and will make sewing on velvets or plaids a breeze. 

Other good features are the button hole foot and program, which make 
buttonholes a snap; the needle down rest position (which toggles the needle 
into the fabric for turning corners) easy self threader; good bobbin 
winding...  My sister in law also kindly lent me her Pfaff 1475, which is the 
computerized embroidery line (lower end) and it's been fun. I don't need all 
the bells and whistles, but having them, have found uses for many.

I've been sewing on Pfaff for 25 years, and would never change, although 
Berninas are also an excellent buy.  Sit down and make a list of what 
features you absolutely have to have. Then make a list of good manufacturers 
who make machines with those features. Then haggle. A lot. Enjoy~

angela+++++
Angela F. Lazear
Costumes & Custom Clothing
Theatrical Costume Design
"Be not afraid of greatness; some are born great,
some achieve greatness, and some have greatness thrust 
upon them."
Twelfth-Night, II, v - W. Shakespeare

QUICK-LINK:  http://come.to/costumes
FULL URL:   http://sj.znet.com/~thespian/angil/index.html
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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Mon Oct  4 18:22:36 1999
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Subject: Re: H-COST: recycling/questions-sewing machines
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-Poster: Margo Anderson <margo@directcon.net>

The walking foot was originated by 
>Pfaff, and will make sewing on velvets or plaids a breeze. 
>

This is a technical quibble, BUT:  Pfaff originated the *built in* walking
foot, which they call the "dual feed" system.  Walking feet as attachments
have been around for ages, and are available for most machines.  

As for an iron,  I'd say don't fall for Rowenta's hype.  Their ability to
deliver a shot of steam is okay, not great, but they are made of a very
brittle plastic.  If you ever knock it off the ironing board, you can either
kiss $150 goodbye, or pay almost that to get it repaired.  

I'm using a $35 Norelco until I can afford a Sussman gravity feed model.  

Margo

"One Tough Costumer"
http://www.directcon.net/wander/main.htm

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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Mon Oct  4 18:25:11 1999
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-Poster: MzScahlett@aol.com

In a message dated 10/4/1999 4:38:10 PM Pacific Daylight Time, 
margo@directcon.net writes:

<< This is a technical quibble, BUT:  Pfaff originated the *built in* walking
 foot, which they call the "dual feed" system.   >>
Yeah, what Margo said!  That's what I meant. Sewing machines are such a 
personal preference kinda thing.  I love mine, but can't say there arent' 
other brands one could fall just as in love with...

angela
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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Mon Oct  4 18:36:45 1999
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Date: Mon, 04 Oct 1999 18:48:57 -0500
From: Kat & Kent <kdyer@home.com>
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-Poster: Kat & Kent <kdyer@home.com>

I can't afford a Pfaff (don't I wish!  I know a Laurel who *finally*
bought a new one after using her old one for a good 20 years!!) so I
bought a White Jeans Machine through an older man who sells them through
the classifieds.  He offers three years of free maintenance (first at
your home, after at his but I live on his route so I got two years at my
house!) and I was able to pay $40 down & $20 a month with a trade in on
my old machine which was dead, dead, dead.  I agree that you need to
make a list of the options *you* want/need... for example, I simply MUST
have a free arm... end of story! <grin>  I also prefer to have a triple
lock stitch but can live without an automatic buttonhole option (after
all, my dh is a master buttonholer! <wink>).  I also have to have
something that will hold up to being used 15 hours a day for weeks at a
stretch.

Kat
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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Mon Oct  4 18:41:15 1999
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Date: Mon, 04 Oct 1999 19:55:45 -0400
From: Cynthia Virtue <cvirtue@thibault.org>
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-Poster: Cynthia Virtue <cvirtue@thibault.org>

I haven't had any structural problems when I drop my Rowenta, but I find
that it doesn't get as hot as I want it to, and the safety features are
a real annoyance.

--
In 1977, when Elvis died, there were 48 professional Elvis
impersonators.  In 1996, there were 7,328.  If this rate of growth does
not change, in 2012, one person in four on the face of the Earth will be
an Elvis impersonator!  -- ZPG newsletter
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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Mon Oct  4 19:02:23 1999
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-Poster: AnnBWass@aol.com

You might want to consider artificial flowers.  Check craft stores.  
Artificial flowers were being made professionally in France during the 
period.  You won't get rosettes, but you might also check out 
drapery/upholstery trims.  I've found some very nice ones.  
Ann Wass
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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Mon Oct  4 19:09:25 1999
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-Poster: Margo Anderson <margo@directcon.net>

At 06:48 PM 10/04/1999 -0500, you wrote:
>
>-Poster: Kat & Kent <kdyer@home.com>
>
>I can't afford a Pfaff (don't I wish!  I know a Laurel who *finally*
>bought a new one after using her old one for a good 20 years!!) so I
>bought a White Jeans Machine

Yes!  If all you need is a reasonable variety of utility stitches and rock
solid dependability, the White Jeans Machine is IT!  I wish I'd bought it
instead of getting talked into the Viking.  

Margo

"One Tough Costumer"
http://www.directcon.net/wander/main.htm

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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Mon Oct  4 20:26:07 1999
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From: "Michelle" <mandrake@mypad.com>
To: "ÃÖº¸À±" <kang0823@hanmail.net>, "costume list" <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: H-COST: Re: How can i post massage?
Date: Mon, 4 Oct 1999 18:50:38 -0700
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-Poster: "Michelle" <mandrake@mypad.com>

Choibo-yun,
  Welcome to the list. To post to the list you will need to type in
h-costume@indra.com and it will get to all of us.
  Where are you from?
Michelle

-----Original Message-----
From: ÃÖº¸À± <kang0823@hanmail.net>
To: Michelle <mandrake@mypad.com>
Date: Monday, October 04, 1999 5:47 PM
Subject: How can i post massage?


>Hellow?
>my name is choibo-yun... Nice meet you..
>I subscribe H-costume yesterday...
>I want to post massage in H-costume but I don't know how to do...
>Please.. the way to post massage...
>Bye...
>==================================================
>NO. 1 ¿ì¸® ÀÎÅͳÝ, ´ÙÀ½
>Æò»ý ¾²´Â ¹«·á E-mail ÁÖ¼Ò ÇѸÞÀϳÝ
>http://www.daum.net

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From: "K & J Hopkins" <khopkins@cyberhighway.net>
To: <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: H-COST: recycling/questions-sewing machines
Date: Mon, 4 Oct 1999 20:23:11 -0600
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-Poster: "K & J Hopkins" <khopkins@cyberhighway.net>

I love my Rowenta.  It fell on the floor (carpeted) and the base came up on
one side.  I took the hammer (what did I have to loose) and beat it back in
place.  Still ticking!!!

The iron I miss, is a metal Sears and Roebuck that I bought at a yard sale
for 50 cents.  I came home one day to my DH's plea's for forgiveness.  He
knocked the ironing board and the S&R iron fell to the ground.  It must of
hit just right, because it came completely apart.  Hmmmm let me see, I got
the Rowenta right after that......

I have since purchased, from Clothilde, one of those nifty iron holders
that screw onto the end of the board.  With a sewing room as small as mine,
I am constantly moving the board from place to place, and the near misses
were driving me to distraction.

Currently I own a (2) old metal Necchi's and one Singer school machine.  My
mom has a Bernina that I have sewn on in the past.  I love my oldest
Necchi, and will keep it.  The others will be traded in on something new
next year.  Bernina? White? Another Necchi?  I haven't started shopping
yet.

Don't you wish that they made a basic machine that had an automatic
button-hole?  I hate the thought of having to buy all those embroidery
stitches just for that.

Kathlene

----------
> From: Cynthia Virtue <cvirtue@thibault.org>
> To: h-costume@indra.com
> Subject: Re: H-COST: recycling/questions-sewing machines
> Date: Monday, October 04, 1999 5:55 PM
> 
> 
> -Poster: Cynthia Virtue <cvirtue@thibault.org>
> 
> I haven't had any structural problems when I drop my Rowenta, but I find
> that it doesn't get as hot as I want it to, and the safety features are
> a real annoyance.
> 
> --
> In 1977, when Elvis died, there were 48 professional Elvis
> impersonators.  In 1996, there were 7,328.  If this rate of growth does
> not change, in 2012, one person in four on the face of the Earth will be
> an Elvis impersonator!  -- ZPG newsletter
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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Mon Oct  4 21:11:21 1999
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Date: Mon, 04 Oct 1999 19:27:11 -0700
From: Carolyn Richardson <benrumson@worldnet.att.net>
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-Poster: Carolyn Richardson <benrumson@worldnet.att.net>

MzScahlett@aol.com wrote:
> 
> -Poster: MzScahlett@aol.com
> 
> In a message dated 10/4/1999 3:52:54 PM Pacific Daylight Time, Appin1@aol.com
> writes:
> 
> <<  I am also in the market for a new sewing machine. I don't need much
>  quilting ability or 10 different buttonholes, but once again, something
>  versatile. The one I looked at seriously was a Viking (at about $1800), but
> I
>  really didn't need all the features. I still drooled all over it.
>  Recommendations?
>   >>
> 
> Kathleen,
> 
> I'd recommend a Pfaff. 

I'd be leery myself - Pfaff recently declared bankruptcy and while that
doesn't spell their death knell yet, it's not a good sign.  I vote for
New Home/Janome.  But talk about your bells and whistles!

Irons:  I have a Rowenta and haven't had any problems with it even after
dropping it several times.  Much better than the Black and Decker I used
to own, but it *was* old.  Look around and find features you want.

Carolyn
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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Mon Oct  4 21:25:26 1999
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From: Wendy Colbert <WendyC@vivid.net>
Subject: Re: H-COST: recycling/questions-sewing machines
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-Poster: Wendy Colbert <WendyC@vivid.net>

>-Poster: Carolyn Richardson <benrumson@worldnet.att.net>

>I'd be leery myself - Pfaff recently declared bankruptcy and while that
>doesn't spell their death knell yet, it's not a good sign.  I vote for
>New Home/Janome.  But talk about your bells and whistles!

My preference is Elna.  I really like my Elna Diva that I bought used.

>Irons:  I have a Rowenta and haven't had any problems with it even after
>dropping it several times.  Much better than the Black and Decker I used
>to own, but it *was* old.  Look around and find features you want.
>

I like my Rowenta, I put it on my wish list and I got it as a birthday
present from my husband- my old iron was slowly falling to bits- literally.

Wendy


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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Mon Oct  4 21:39:53 1999
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Date: Mon, 4 Oct 1999 22:53:54 EDT
Subject: H-COST: Re: periods you hate
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-Poster: Gaelscot@aol.com



I agree with Albert Cat as usual -- when I see a period done right, with the 
right fabrics and cut and trims and accessories (and of course, 
underpinnings), I like just about everything. I love that feeling I get when 
I see something done right for the first time and think, "So THAT was the 
idea." Examples of such things: powdered wigs, 1830s woman's sleeves, 
panniers, bustles. Periods I have yet to see that with: anything ancient 
Greek or Roman. The charms of those elude me, although I'm sure there were 
some.

Gail Finke

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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Mon Oct  4 22:22:49 1999
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Date: Mon, 04 Oct 1999 20:35:17 -0700
From: Susan Fatemi <susanf@netwiz.net>
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-Poster: Susan Fatemi <susanf@netwiz.net>

> <<  I am also in the market for a new sewing machine. I don't need much
>  quilting ability or 10 different buttonholes, but once again, something
>  versatile. The one I looked at seriously was a Viking (at about $1800), but

I know I'm not the only cheap, er poor person on the list
but I can't imagine paying $1000 or more for a sewing machine!
These can't be the same people who won't pay more than $.50
a yd for fabric (as someone wrote recently on the Men's list)
:->  Anything costs that much, I'd better be able to drive it!

What on earth do these things *do* to justify the price?
Mop the floor and change the baby!? No seriously, what
special things do they do?

(My "new" machine is 14 or 15 years old. Got it at Penney's
because it was solid metal and I could make payments. $200.
I needed a zig-zag to mend the kids clothes and my old
machine was only straight stitch. I still haven't used
all the feet/stitches on it.
	The old machine is about 50, only does straight
stitch, back and forth, has a zillion attachments, most
of which I still haven't figured out. I've used both
of them a lot and they just keep going!)

What am I missing?

Susan F.
(ok, I do spend ungodly amounts on good fabric)

-- 
Oh Noh! Kimonos!
susanf@netwiz.net
http://www.netwiz.net/~susanf
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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Mon Oct  4 22:38:50 1999
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Date: Mon, 04 Oct 1999 20:51:20 -0700
To: h-costume@indra.com
From: "Carol J. Bell Cannon" <cjcannon@greymists.com>
Subject: Re: H-COST: sewing machines
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-Poster: "Carol J. Bell Cannon" <cjcannon@greymists.com>

           I have my old Riccar, which was my first 'on-my'-own' adult
purchase, at $200, and we've been sewing more or less happily ever
since--that was in the early-mid-60's. Carol
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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Mon Oct  4 23:34:00 1999
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From: rio@austin.rr.com (StrangeGirl)
To: h-costume@indra.com
Subject: Re: H-COST: recycling/questions-sewing machines
Date: Tue, 05 Oct 1999 04:44:41 GMT
Organization: The Corner of my Desk
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-Poster: rio@austin.rr.com (StrangeGirl)

On Mon, 4 Oct 1999 20:23:11 -0600, the following was written in this
electric book by "K & J Hopkins" <khopkins@cyberhighway.net>:

>Don't you wish that they made a basic machine that had an automatic
>button-hole?  I hate the thought of having to buy all those embroidery
>stitches just for that.

My white Jeans Machine has a set of autoamtic buttonhole stitches, and
hardly any fancy embroidery (ducks?!?). Most of the stitches are your
basics plus some hem and stretch stitches. I've used it to mend
stretch leggings when a serger wasn't available.

It was $200 new. I've had this one for 4 years, no tuneup needed, and
I sew nearly constantly. I've dropped it (about 2 years ago) and I'm
hardly what one would call nice to this machine, and it *still* works
fine.

I had the earlier version of this same model for about 5 years before
that, and loaned it to my sister when her new Singer burst into flames
(not an exaggeration) and I was married to a man with several sewing
macines, so mine was 'extra'. She wouldn't give it back :>

So I got a new one. She's had to have the old one tuned once, but
that's it.

If you are looking for a good little workhorse that can take nearly
ANYTHING, and has a reasonably automatic buttonhole stitch set, this
is it.

Margery
"Do you have any files?"
"We're the government, of course we have files."
Millenium
{*to reply take spambegone from my reply-to address*}
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To: h-costume@indra.com
From: Joan M Jurancich <joanj@quiknet.com>
Subject: Hoefnagel's "Fete at Bermondsey", was H-COST: 16thCen bodices
  not matching skirts...
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-Poster: Joan M Jurancich <joanj@quiknet.com>

At 09:19 AM 9/30/99 -0700, Margo Anderson wrote:
>
>>There are a couple of mismatched bodices and skirts on the figures 
>>in the "Fete at Bermondsey" by Joris Hoefnagel... (I think I've heard 
>>it referred to as the "Wedding at Bermondsey too?) 
>
[snip]
>
>Failing that, Teddy, do you recall a price on that poster version?  I assume
>it's not available in the US, but perhaps we could work something out?
>
>
>Margo Anderson

Make that two, if you can, Teddy. I'm tired of trying to make out details on
a little, teeny copy of the painting in my reference books. One mailing
would suffice, though, since Margo and I are regional "neighbors".

Thanks,

Joan Jurancich
Sacramento, CA
joanj@quiknet.com

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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Tue Oct  5 00:02:37 1999
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Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 01:17:12 EDT
Subject: Re: H-COST: recycling/questions-sewing machines
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-Poster: MzScahlett@aol.com


<<  I'd recommend a Pfaff. (huge snip)>>

<<  I'd be leery myself - Pfaff recently declared bankruptcy and while that 
doesn't spell their death knell yet, it's not a good sign.  I vote for  New 
Home/Janome.  But talk about your bells and whistles! >>

Carolyn,  Pfaff is currently owned by Singer, which I doubt is going under 
any time soon.   The company has filed for reorganization/protection from 
creditors, which is true of perhaps a third of the corporations in this 
country and abroad at any given time.

Aside from that, what I said was that it was a wonderful machine, and I went 
on to mention several other brands.  I also said that it's a personal 
preference.  That said, after doing almost a month's research, I spent a 
whopping $750 for my first Pfaff in 1972, and I got 25 wonderful years from 
it ---  until I treated myself to a new machine 2 years ago.  It's true they 
are expensive, as are most of the higher end machines, but most places WILL 
haggle, just like with a car.  I paid something like half of "retail" for my 
current machine.  It really depends on what you want from a sewing machine.  
I'm just very very happy with mine and would not consider owning anything 
else.

There are many many boards run by most of the major sewing machine companies, 
on which are discussed the merits and drawbacks of many of that company's 
models. Before buying any machine, I would recommend the purchaser ask a lot 
of questions, make a list of desired features, and then compare prices of 
machines which have those features currently on the market.  There is also 
the possibility of buying a used/reconditioned machine, which would 
substantially lower the price.

angela

+++++
Angela F. Lazear
Costumes & Custom Clothing
Theatrical Costume Design
"I have no other but a woman's reason: 
I think him so, because I think him so."
Two Gentlemen of Verona, Act I, Sc. I - W. Shakespeare

QUICK-LINK: http://come.to/costumes
FULL URL: http://sj.znet.com/~thespian/angil/index.html
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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Tue Oct  5 00:36:11 1999
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Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 00:56:00 -0500 (CDT)
From: Emma Elizabeth Lehman <00217146@bigred.unl.edu>
To: h-costume@indra.com
Subject: H-COST: old discussion: wearing corsets
In-Reply-To: <2.2.16.19991004220528.4917f67c@mail2.quiknet.com>
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-Poster: Emma Elizabeth Lehman <00217146@bigred.unl.edu>


A while ago, I posted to this list with a question about dealing with
scoliosis and a corset that made my back ache.  Working on the advice of
some list members, I made a new Elizabethan corset and have just completed
a 4-hour test wear without even a twinge.  I've yet to wear it for a full
day, but so far things are looking promising.  I thought I'd share my
changes with the list in case anyone else is suffering from the same or
similar difficutlies.

The old corset: 4-piece wench-style bodice, steel strapping tape boning in
front only, front lacing.  The boning was sewn into channels in the
interfacing as follows (one half): One piece on each side of the lacing
holes, two shorter pieces fanning out slightly from the bottom

the new corset: Essentially the same cut as the old one, but with a longer
center point, wood boning throughout, back lacing.  The boning is 1/8 inch
wood dowels (pretending to be bamboo from a placemat--an idea from this
list from a year or more ago), usually sewn in pairs as follows: six
going straight up and down center front, two angling out from there, gwo
more parallel with the previous two, splitting the difference between the
previous two and the five or so sewn along the side seams, and then two on
either side of the lacing holes in back.  

I had originally thought that because the problem with my back was that
the corset was forcing it straight (scoliosis has my spine curving
gently), the solution was to use a *lighter* corset.  This seems to be
false.  The boning used is less flexable than the first corset, and more
abundant, and I wore it all evening without complaint.

I hope that was somewhat comprehensible.

Emma

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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Tue Oct  5 00:41:56 1999
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From: Harvey Georgia <Harveyg@acer.edu.au>
To: "'H-costume'" <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: H-COST: recycling/questions-sewing machines
Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 15:52:22 +1000 
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-Poster: Harvey Georgia <Harveyg@acer.edu.au>


- -Poster: "K & J Hopkins" <khopkins@cyberhighway.net>

[snip]
Currently I own a (2) old metal Necchi's and one Singer school machine.  My
mom has a Bernina that I have sewn on in the past.  I love my oldest
Necchi, and will keep it.  The others will be traded in on something new
next year.  Bernina? White? Another Necchi?  I haven't started shopping
yet.

Don't you wish that they made a basic machine that had an automatic
button-hole?  I hate the thought of having to buy all those embroidery
stitches just for that.

--

They did.

The Janome 'MyStyle'. I got mine eleven years ago, and it has 16 stitches
(three of which are buttonhole). 

These days, I think they have 20 stitch machines, but my old one hasn't
missed a beat :-)

Georgia
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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Tue Oct  5 03:11:19 1999
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From: "LGreene" <lgreene@halcyon.com>
To: <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: H-COST: Costume resources in NYCity
Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 09:43:44 +0200
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-Poster: "LGreene" <lgreene@halcyon.com>

Hi all - can anyone recommend a great costume shop or costumer in New York
City?  I am organizing a New Year's Eve trip to Paris that includes the Bal
du Roy at the Chateau of Versailles, and I have some people in New York City
who need a costumer  so they can come in period (18th century) costume.
Thanks!

Lauriann

---------------------------------------------
Gilded Age Tours: http://www.gildedagetours.com
Custom-Designed Tours of Paris and France, including Flea Market Tours,
Personal Shopping, and Wine Tasting/French Wine Country Tours.  Room still
available on our Millenium New Year's Eve at Versailles Tour of Paris!

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From: teddy1 <teddy1@mdx.ac.uk>
Subject: H-COST: Sari Silk
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-Poster: teddy1 <teddy1@mdx.ac.uk>


> - -Poster: Jean Waddie <anne@montgomerie.demon.co.uk>

> If you get actual silk in Indian cloth shops, you are very lucky.
> All those I've been into in the UK have a discreet sign near the
> door "All fabrics 100% polyester"  They look so gorgeous, and it's
> so disappointing. 

Either that or the people in the shop have no idea of the fibre 
content of the fabrics and will happily sell them as silk or cotton if 
they *look* like silk or cotton regardless of the actual mix of fibres 
used in them.

I've had to take back fabrics before now, because they were sold to 
me as 100% cotton (I asked specifically and explained that I 
wanted to dye them) and they were mixes with synthetics so didn't 
take the dye.  Many of the staff (and owners) of these shops have 
no idea about fibres.  hey just stock wheat *looks* good and they 
know they can sell to a public who, by and large, wouldn't care 
about the fibre content themselves.


Teddy
(Trustworthy Evil-Bunny of Destiny, part-time Knave and Creature of
air and darkness, apparently!)
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Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 08:44:12 EDT
Subject: H-COST: Re: sewing machines
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-Poster: Gaelscot@aol.com



Wow, I wish I'd heard that advice about the White Jeans Machine two years ago 
when I bought my last machine. I was getting sick of having my Bernina tuned 
up all the time (pretty much any time we used it to quilt with -- and because 
my husband makes padded Charles le Blois-style gambesons, that was a lot). 
Out of desperation I bought a used Viking sewing school machine. It was 
refurbished and certified and everything, and I assumed that it would take a 
lot of abuse. It cost about $175, and the sewing machine store woman sneered 
at me the whole time because I wasn't even looking at the new machines that 
cost about $1,000. Well, it's worked fine, except that it's very picky about 
thread -- it only sews with the expensive kind. I had to take it back in 
because the thread snarled almost constantly, and the staff was mystified -- 
until someone remembered that another Viking had had the same problem, which 
vanished as soon as they put that German cone thread on it.

They got some and demonstrated it, and of course it worked perfectly. Well, 
being a skeptical sort, I suspected foul play. But it's really true. Stick on 
a spool of Dual Duty, and I'm sunk. So now I scout for sales and whenever 
possible I only sew with black and white thread, because you can get it in 
bigger spools. It's not a big problem, but it is a bit of a pain.

So there's something else to look out for when buying a machine!

Gail Finke
Who read in the newspaper the other day that only 5% of U.S. households own 
sewing machines. Doubting that it's really true . . .



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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Tue Oct  5 07:58:00 1999
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Subject: Re: H-COST: Re: sewing machines
Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 09:18:06 -0500
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From: Elisee du Lyonnais <elisee@sewingcentral.com>
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-Poster: Elisee du Lyonnais <elisee@sewingcentral.com>

I have to say that the premium thread requirement is something that many 
upscale machines are known for.  If you are having problems, also try 
using Groz-Beckert or Sullivan's needles.  I find they are much more 
tolerant than Schmetz (and in many cases less expensive).  G-B polishes 
the insides of the eyes of the needles, and they have a longer scarf (the 
flat depression that coincides with the hook of the machine, so the 
machine can be slightly out of time and still function) and a deeper 
groove for the thread, allowing less perfect thread to be used.  When I 
go over a machine, though, I test it with Organ brand needles.  They are 
reasonable in price, and are the brand packed with almost all new 
machines. (about $3 for 10 needles) 
 When I was teaching the children's sewing classes, and we did the unit 
on t-shirts I had the students do the hems with double needles.  The G-B 
double needles worked perfectly the first time - the Schmetz would often 
have to be "tweaked" to get them to not skip stitches.  This was on the 
student's machines, not perfectly tuned floor models.  

If your machine has a four-step buttonhole and you want to make life a 
little easier, ask your local machine dealer for a foot with an 
adjustable gauge that measures the button.  They are under $5, and make 
sure that all your buttonholes are the same size.  It makes life much 
easier!

Lisee



Gaelscot@aol.com wrote:

>
>-Poster: Gaelscot@aol.com
>
>
>
>Wow, I wish I'd heard that advice about the White Jeans Machine two years 
>ago 
>when I bought my last machine. I was getting sick of having my Bernina tuned 
>up all the time (pretty much any time we used it to quilt with -- and 
>because 
>my husband makes padded Charles le Blois-style gambesons, that was a lot). 
>Out of desperation I bought a used Viking sewing school machine. It was 
>refurbished and certified and everything, and I assumed that it would take a 
>lot of abuse. It cost about $175, and the sewing machine store woman sneered 
>at me the whole time because I wasn't even looking at the new machines that 
>cost about $1,000. Well, it's worked fine, except that it's very picky about 
>thread -- it only sews with the expensive kind. I had to take it back in 
>because the thread snarled almost constantly, and the staff was mystified -- 
>until someone remembered that another Viking had had the same problem, which 
>vanished as soon as they put that German cone thread on it.
>
>They got some and demonstrated it, and of course it worked perfectly. Well, 
>being a skeptical sort, I suspected foul play. But it's really true. Stick 
>on 
>a spool of Dual Duty, and I'm sunk. So now I scout for sales and whenever 
>possible I only sew with black and white thread, because you can get it in 
>bigger spools. It's not a big problem, but it is a bit of a pain.
>
>So there's something else to look out for when buying a machine!
>
>Gail Finke
>Who read in the newspaper the other day that only 5% of U.S. households own 
>sewing machines. Doubting that it's really true . . .
>
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From: "Cynthia Barnes" <Cynthia_Barnes@phoenix.com>
To: "H-Costume (E-mail)" <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: H-COST: Recommended topend machine & iron
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-Poster: "Cynthia Barnes" <Cynthia_Barnes@phoenix.com>


>1) What iron would you recommend for costuming?

Rowenta Professional, if you're willing to kick in that much money.  I have
the next model down and have been very happy w/ it for tailoring.  The
Professional was available for use at a class I tool recently; it can really
develop a head of steam (at many temp levels); great for steam shaping
curved sleeves, lapel roll lines & the like.

>2) I am also in the market for a new sewing machine. I don't need much
quilting ability or 10 different buttonholes, but once again, something
versatile. The one I looked at seriously was a Viking (at about $1800), but
I
really didn't need all the features. I still drooled all over it.

I adore my Viking 1+. If your skill is beyond your current machine's ability
AND you want to use all the features, this is the last machine you will ever
need (*).  The major downside is that all the extras are pricey.  I've
enjoyed reverse-engineering mine. The embroidery design S/W from Viking is
cruddy.  I've offered a "garb for GUI" exchange to an SCA gent with a
penchant for programming. We'll see...

The Bernina, & Elna embroidery machines do nicely, too.  I've used both when
at "Stitch & Bitch" gatherings at friends' houses.

* mostly, I still keep the ancient kenmore for really tough projects like
jeans, leather, kevlar (repairing fencing jackets)as I'd rather not bang the
Viking out of alignment.

--cin
Cynthia Barnes
408.570.1023
Cynthia_Barnes@phoenix.com
Phoenix Technologies
411 E. Plumeria Dr.
San Jose CA 95134
"I think animal testing is a terrible idea; they get all nervous and
give the wrong answers."

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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Tue Oct  5 09:35:29 1999
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-Poster: pulliam@acadia.net (Deborah Pulliam)

<<Yes, but Geraldine Chaplin looked absolutely upholstered!>>

Don't you think that was part of her role? I think the effect was intended
-- (both for Chaplin and Dunaway.)


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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Tue Oct  5 09:41:11 1999
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Subject: H-COST: Paid Costuming Gig Opportunity in SF Bay Area
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-Poster: Janice Sellers <janice@seismosoc.org>

I don't know if this has ever been posted to the list, but if it was,
apparently no one ever called.


Ft. Mason Drawing Class Looking for Costumed Models

The Fort Mason Art Center is looking for costumed models to pose for a
Monday night drawing class.  They are looking for a completely different
costume each week; they might possibly hire a model more than once
providing a different costume is worn.  Both men and women are needed.  Age
and body size are not determinants.  The class is held from 6-9 p.m.
Models are given breaks every 20 minutes.  Pay is $40 cash.

The current class started September 13 and runs for fourteen weeks.  After
this quarter ends, there is a break and then a new fourteen-week session
starts.  The class has been ongoing for seven years.  The students in these
classes are serious artists.

The class is held in the Fort Mason Art Center at Laguna and Marina Blvd.
in San Francisco.  Free parking is available in the Fort Mason parking lot.

If you are interested, call Electra Long at (510) 594-9604.


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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Tue Oct  5 09:50:46 1999
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Subject: Re: H-COST: Sari Silk - separate sari trim
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-Poster: kat@grendal.rain.com


> Some sari stores have separate gold-threaded trim, available only in like
> 9-yard hunks.  Sometimes these border trims show up in trim places for more
> per yard than the sari stores sell it for, but they will cut to length
> where the sari stores won't.  Anyway, a few of these trims have appropriate
> patterns for Ren. use.  Use these and knock 'em dead with real gold (real
> gold plate over copper wire). 

It depends on the shop. In Vancouver, BC we go to one in the Punjabi 
market (2 blocks of sari shops starting at 49th and Main) called 
Sahda Saree House where many of us regularly go to get drop dead 
trims. They will sell you as much as you want. I've been known to get 
whole rolls (20-30 yards each. They don't call me Kat-by-the-bolt for 
nothing!) Their prices seem to be better than other shops which don't 
sell as much volume in trim.

The patterns have to be chosen judiciously but I've found ones which 
look great on Byzantines, 12th Century, Italian, Tudor and 
Elizabethan (of course, not the same trim for all of them.) If you're 
not used to looking at the designs, get some xeroxes of the designs 
in sculptures, manuscripts, paintings and textiles from the time 
period you are interested in and take them with you to compare.

Kat 

Kat(June Russell)
kat@grendal.rain.com
Heu! Tintinnuntius meus Sonat!
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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Tue Oct  5 09:52:02 1999
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Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 10:12:01 -0500 (CDT)
From: Emma Elizabeth Lehman <00217146@bigred.unl.edu>
To: "'H-costume'" <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: H-COST: recycling/questions-sewing machines
In-Reply-To: <DFA5CD37A972D111A8BF0000F879D285DA5186@exchange.acer.edu.au>
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-Poster: Emma Elizabeth Lehman <00217146@bigred.unl.edu>


> [snip again]
> Don't you wish that they made a basic machine that had an automatic
> button-hole?  I hate the thought of having to buy all those embroidery
> stitches just for that.
> 
> --
> 
> They did.
> 
> The Janome 'MyStyle'. I got mine eleven years ago, and it has 16 stitches
> (three of which are buttonhole). 

Also, there's an attachment for the old Singers that does buttonholes
automatically.  Straight and buttonhole, that's all I can do.

Emma

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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Tue Oct  5 09:59:25 1999
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Date: Tue, 05 Oct 1999 08:11:44 -0700
To: h-costume@indra.com
From: "Carol J. Bell Cannon" <cjcannon@greymists.com>
Subject: Re: H-COST: Re: sewing machines
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-Poster: "Carol J. Bell Cannon" <cjcannon@greymists.com>

At 09:18 AM 10/05/1999 -0500, you wrote:
>
>-Poster: Elisee du Lyonnais <elisee@sewingcentral.com>
>
>I have to say that the premium thread requirement is something that many 
>upscale machines are known for.  If you are having problems, also try 
>using Groz-Beckert or Sullivan's needles.   When I 
>go over a machine, though, I test it with Organ brand needles.  They are 
>reasonable in price, and are the brand packed with almost all new 
>machines. (about $3 for 10 needles) 
>Lisee
          Hi, Lisee--Where do I order these, if my local JoAnn's/Hancock's
don't stock them?  Thanx!  Gr/ainne / Carol
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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Tue Oct  5 10:06:36 1999
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-Poster: " Firefly" <fire.fly@hotbot.com>

Vogue has done it...from the pictures on the pattern (photos of the finished product), their new zoot suit is on the money!  It looks like a fairly exact copy of the (oh-so-cool and stylish) El Pachuco zoot suit.  Unlike the Simplicity pattern where the photos showed their suit not hanging quite right (though the drawing looked ok), the photos in the catalogue look great.  

I haven't made it (heck, I just bought it yesterday), but I did read the pattern instructions.  It covers some tailoring details, but it's a bit on the skimpy side--I would add more interfacing, tape the lapels and probably substitute high-grade iron-on interfacing on the collar rather than using felt.  I'd suggest referring to a tailoring guide if this doesn't make sense to you.

So, bottom line:  as long as the Vogue pattern pieces fit together (which I imagine they will) it's a winner.  The pants are terrific, the jacket looks great!  Skip the Simplicity pattern--it's just an oversized suit and will not be as flattering...

Mary

---
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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Tue Oct  5 10:09:53 1999
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Date: Tue, 05 Oct 1999 10:34:41 -0500
From: The Mulders <mulder@mail.brightok.net>
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-Poster: The Mulders <mulder@mail.brightok.net>



I also have been looking at new machines.  I'll have to place my vote with the
Bernina as it has served me well. Basically I've decided that my old 930
Bernina is still the best on the market.  The problem is I lost the power cord
and foot press (the go pedal).  I left it on a job in another town and it was
never found.  Does anyone have a bernina to sell or part out?  It will cost me
big bucks to replace and the machine has been used and abused for years.  It
has sewn for 8 hours a day for 20 years with never a problem. I just don't want
to trash it but don't want to spend too much on replacement parts. New machines
are also too high.  I don't pay that much for cars!  Jewelry and fabric, well
that's another story :)
Thanks,
Ninya

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Date: Tue, 05 Oct 1999 09:31:59 -0700
From: stephen fairman <fairmans@teleport.com>
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-Poster: stephen fairman <fairmans@teleport.com>



MzScahlett@aol.com wrote:

> -Poster: MzScahlett@aol.com
>
> <<  I'd recommend a Pfaff. (huge snip)>>
>
>  Aside from that, what I said was that it was a wonderful machine, and I went
> on to mention several other brands.  I also said that it's a personal
> preference.   .  It's true they
> are expensive, as are most of the higher end machines, but most places WILL
> haggle, just like with a car.
>
> T
> the possibility of buying a used/reconditioned machine, which would
> substantially lower the price.
>
> angela
>
> +++++
> Angela F. Lazear
> Costumes & Custom Clothing
> Theatrical Costume Design
>

There is also ebay.  I was just checking it and I found several Pfaff's for as
low as $50 bid.  I have used a Pfaff 260 for ten years, sewing wool cloaks and I
love it.  My household now owns one Pfaff 260, a 230, an industrial, and a
treadle machine.  We will be buying another used Pfaff in the near future as my
son-in-law just let it out that he likes to sew (He hid this information for over
a year!)

Esteban McLachan
Shadow's Treasure Chest
http://www.cyberis.net/~fairman1


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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Tue Oct  5 11:43:33 1999
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Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 10:01:33 -0700 (PDT)
From: Megan Irvine <mirv01@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: H-COST: Recommended topend machine & iron
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-Poster: Megan Irvine <mirv01@yahoo.com>

--- Cynthia Barnes <Cynthia_Barnes@phoenix.com> wrote:
> * mostly, I still keep the ancient kenmore for
> really tough projects like
> jeans, leather, kevlar (repairing fencing jackets)as
> I'd rather not bang the
> Viking out of alignment.

Really! I have an ancient Kenmore that I inherited and
I keep wondering when it's going to break (so I can
replace it with something yummy) but it never breaks
no matter how many layers of heavy canvas or leather I
try to force through it! I did not know that this was
a feature of the ancient Kenmores. I thought they were
low-end machines. Maybe I should treat mine with more
respect.

mirv


=====
Megan Irvine <mirv01@yahoo.com>
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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Tue Oct  5 11:56:28 1999
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-Poster: " Firefly" <fire.fly@hotbot.com>

Oops--I forgot to include the pattern number--2367.  You can't miss it, it's on the cover of Vogue's new pattern book, on the inside cover (with the Vintage Vogue pictures) and then in the men's section!  the models look great--wearing two-toned shoes, pointy-collared shirts, chains, and vintage ties, too (though I fault them on their clip-on suspenders--tacky)!  Unfortunately, their website hasn't been updated to include it.

Hasta, swingers!

Mary
---
Visit my homepage:
http://pages.hotbot.com/travel/fire.fly

On Tue, 05 Oct 1999 08:21:21    Firefly wrote:
>
>-Poster: " Firefly" <fire.fly@hotbot.com>
>
>Vogue has done it...from the pictures on the pattern (photos of the finished product), their new zoot suit is on the money!  It looks like a fairly exact copy of the (oh-so-cool and stylish) El Pachuco zoot suit.  Unlike the Simplicity pattern where the photos showed their suit not hanging quite right (though the drawing looked ok), the photos in the catalogue look great.  
>
>I haven't made it (heck, I just bought it yesterday), but I did read the pattern instructions.  It covers some tailoring details, but it's a bit on the skimpy side--I would add more interfacing, tape the lapels and probably substitute high-grade iron-on interfacing on the collar rather than using felt.  I'd suggest referring to a tailoring guide if this doesn't make sense to you.
>
>So, bottom line:  as long as the Vogue pattern pieces fit together (which I imagine they will) it's a winner.  The pants are terrific, the jacket looks great!  Skip the Simplicity pattern--it's just an oversized suit and will not be as flattering...
>
>Mary
>
>---
>Visit my homepage:
>http://pages.hotbot.com/travel/fire.fly
>
>


HotBot - Search smarter.
http://www.hotbot.com
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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Tue Oct  5 12:30:10 1999
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Date: Tue, 05 Oct 1999 13:48:05 +0000
From: Lois <books@woodenporch.com>
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-Poster: Lois <books@woodenporch.com>

We've decided to move to Florida and I will be selling my book stock.
I have about 3000 books dealing with costume and textiles.

I've listed and will be listing many books dealing with historic costume
on ebay. My ebay address (bookmark it and check back frequently):

http://cgi3.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewListedItems&userid=books7

Right now I have several  titles on history of costume,  Costume (Journal of
Costume Society of England), Dress (Journal of Costume Society of
America), Godey's, Peterson's, Harper's Bazar (the last one listed-
1892 - has a tissue over-lay pattern for several garments), needlework,
textiles, fashion and more.

Thanks Elizabeth for letting me mention this.
Lois




---------------
Lois Mueller
Wooden Porch Books
books@woodenporch.com

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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Tue Oct  5 12:34:30 1999
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From: "Jennifer McNitt" <jenmcnitt@excite.com>
To: h-costume-digest@indra.com
Subject: H-COST: FYI--cheap velveteen!
Message-Id: <939145619.21394.4@excite.com>
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-Poster: "Jennifer McNitt" <jenmcnitt@excite.com>

This weekend I went to the Walmart here in Apple Valley, MN and found that
they had the velveteen for sale also.  The Walmart in Eagan, MN did not.

The color selection was good, but for every color I wanted, they only had 5
yrd. bolts.  I need more than this for the dress I would like to make next.

What was interesting though, was that they had a navy rayon (I think) velvet
marked as velveteen and it was priced the same as the velveteen.

Jen




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Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 10:54:40 -0700
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From: Lynn Downward <ldownward@chori.org>
Subject: Re: H-COST: Wow, Daddy-O, a Zoot Suit Pattern!
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-Poster: Lynn Downward <ldownward@chori.org>

>-Poster: " Firefly" <fire.fly@hotbot.com>
>
>Oops--I forgot to include the pattern number--2367.  You can't miss it,
>it's on the cover of Vogue's new pattern book, on the inside cover (with
>the Vintage Vogue pictures) and then in the men's section!  the models
>look great--wearing two-toned shoes, pointy-collared shirts, chains, and
>vintage ties, too (though I fault them on their clip-on
>suspenders--tacky)!  Unfortunately, their website hasn't been updated to
>include it.
>
>Hasta, swingers!
>
>Mary

Not to mention that Joann's has Vogue patterns on sale for 70% off for the
next 2-3 weeks!!
LynnD
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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Tue Oct  5 13:23:12 1999
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Date: Tue, 05 Oct 1999 11:06:01 -0700
To: h-costume@indra.com
From: Carolyn Kayta Barrows <kayta@slip.net>
Subject: Re: H-COST: Cavalier visual weight gain
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-Poster: Carolyn Kayta Barrows <kayta@slip.net>

><<Yes, but Geraldine Chaplin looked absolutely upholstered!>>
>
>Don't you think that was part of her role? I think the effect was intended
>-- (both for Chaplin and Dunaway.)

Granted that the Queen's dresses were poofier than the other character's
were, but switch the dresses and you'd get the same effect.  The actress
with the larger frame could carry the extra poofyness better than the one
with smaller bones.  The fashion then was for bigger women than are
fashionable today, and the style really accommodates larger sized bodies.


Kayta
     ////.\\\
    ////-@@\\\
   ((((   7 (((
     |   -- ))))
     * )   (((((
  /----\   /---\

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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Tue Oct  5 14:02:44 1999
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Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 15:15:31 -0400 (EDT)
From: Kevin & Mara Riley <lindo@Radix.Net>
To: h-costume@indra.com
Subject: Re: H-COST: sewing machines
In-Reply-To: <37F971F5.270C@netwiz.net>
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-Poster: Kevin & Mara Riley <lindo@Radix.Net>

On Mon, 4 Oct 1999, Susan Fatemi wrote:
> I know I'm not the only cheap, er poor person on the list
> but I can't imagine paying $1000 or more for a sewing machine!
> These can't be the same people who won't pay more than $.50
> a yd for fabric (as someone wrote recently on the Men's list)
> :->  Anything costs that much, I'd better be able to drive it!

LOL!  I can relate...
For several years, I used my great-grandmother's old Featherweight Singer,
keeping it well-oiled and cleaned out.  It worked just fine; I eventually
was given a new Singer by my DH for Christmas -- no computer chips, just
the top-of-the-line of the non-computerized models.  Probably cost about
$350, though I didn't ask.  It'll do everything I need it to, and it has
more metal parts than the cheaper models.  I recently bought the walking
foot attachment to do some quilting and velvet stuff.


> What on earth do these things *do* to justify the price?
> Mop the floor and change the baby!? No seriously, what
> special things do they do?

I imagine, from what I've seen in 'Threads' magazine, that they do a lot
of the computer embroidery stuff.  Personally, the computerized embroidery
looks computerized to me -- I prefer the hand-done stuff.  But if you had
to get something done in a hurry, I could see the point of having such.

-- Mara

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-Poster: tylerweiss@excite.com






________________________________________________________________
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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Tue Oct  5 14:18:57 1999
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Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 15:32:15 EDT
Subject: Re: H-COST: Recommended topend machine & iron
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-Poster: Mayfair13a@aol.com

Hi Folks,

I own an older Viking Mechanical.  It has lots of doodads, including the 
automatic buttonholer.  I went through 3 machines before I settled on this 
one.  An old warhorse of a Singer, a White, & now my Viking.  They are all 
tough!  I purchased my Viking on layaway from a vacuum shop.  It was a great 
deal.  Look through consumer reports on sewing machines before you take the 
plunge.  Good luck to you.  I'm still looking for a Singer Featherweight 
w/all the attachments.  We all have our dreams.

Pasha
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From: "KATE M BUNTING" <K.M.Bunting@derby.ac.uk>
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Subject: H-COST: Cavalier visual weight gain
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-Poster: "KATE M BUNTING" <K.M.Bunting@derby.ac.uk>

I'm skinny and flat-chested and don't think my 1640s outfits make me look any fatter.  After all, Queen Henrietta Maria was petite. Actually, I consider the style  quite flattering to large ladies.
It's many years since I saw "The 3 Musketeers", but didn't Geraldine Chaplin play the Queen of France? Why should they have wanted to make her look larger?

Kate Bunting
King's Lifeguard of Foote, Sealed Knot

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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Tue Oct  5 14:28:16 1999
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Subject: Re: H-COST: Looking for cocoon coat pattern
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-Poster: Mayfair13a@aol.com

Hello All!

I am looking for a cocoon coat pattern made by Folkwear.  Folkwear has 
discontinued it so it cannot be purchased through them.  Does anyone have one 
they wouldn't mind selling or renting?  Does anyone know where I might be 
able to get my hands on the pattern for sale from a vendor?

I would love to make this for New Year's Eve.

Thank You
Pasha
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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Tue Oct  5 14:45:38 1999
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Subject: H-COST: Recommended topend machine & iron
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-Poster: pulliam@acadia.net (Deborah Pulliam)

<<a feature of the ancient Kenmores. I thought they were low-end machines.
Maybe I should treat mine with more respect.>>

The ancient Kenmores are mostly ancient Singers. Sears didn't do any of
their own manufacturing of anything; all appliances, etc. were made for
them by other manufacturers. At various times, the sewing machines were
made by Singer and White, and probably others.

Not necessarily low-end, except possibly in cost.

I think anyone should treat *any* ancient sewing machines with great
respect -- everyone I've met was a great machine, and very sturdy (not to
mention all metal). Can't say that about all the newer ones.


Deborah


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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Tue Oct  5 14:47:41 1999
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Subject: H-COST:  Name My Business
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-Poster: Margo Anderson <margo@directcon.net>

Okay, everyone:  I'm finally going to talk about what I've been hinting at
for months.  If all goes well with my meeting with a potential investor in a
few weeks, I will soon be starting my own pattern business, making high
quality historical patterns for women and men,  specializing in the pre 1650
period.  Not surprisingly, the first few patterns will be Elizabethan upper
class garments.

I'm almost done with my business plan, but it lacks one thing:  A name for
the  business.  Since I've asked the list's help with everything else,  of
course I'm coming to you all for this, too.

So, I'm holding a contest. The winner will receive a copy of the first
pattern BEFORE the publication date. 

  I need a good, evocative name that expresses what the business is about.
I don't want anything too cutesy, i.e, "You Sew And Sew" or "Forgotten
Memories"  or too stuffy, 
 "The Extremely Authentic Historical Pattern Company, Ltd".  

 I'd like something with style and panache.  In fact, I'd use "Panache" if I
thought people could pronounce it, but having had a business called
"Seraglio", I've learned THAT lesson.

   Please email me at margo@directcon.net with entries, as many as you like.
In the case of a tie, the first email wins, so hurry!

Margo Anderson

"One Tough Costumer"
http://www.directcon.net/wander/main.htm

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To: h-costume@indra.com
Subject: Re: H-COST: Looking for cocoon coat pattern
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-Poster: lilinah@grin.net

>-Poster: Mayfair13a@aol.com
>I am looking for a cocoon coat pattern made by Folkwear.  Folkwear has
>discontinued it so it cannot be purchased through them.  Does anyone have one
>they wouldn't mind selling or renting?  Does anyone know where I might be
>able to get my hands on the pattern for sale from a vendor?

The Cocoon coat has not been discontinued, as it has never been released by
Folkwear; it is in process of publication and will be released "reeeeel
sooooon now".

Visit:
http://www.larkbooks.com/home.nav/fw/drawingboard.html
for updates on the release date of the cocoon coat pattern.

I, too, am looking forward to being able to buy it.

Check out their website:
http://www.larkbooks.com/home.nav/fw/index.html
for available patterns, and those discontinued patterns that remain in
stock at a 30 per cent discount.

Lilinah


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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Tue Oct  5 15:00:17 1999
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-Poster: Margo Anderson <margo@directcon.net>


>
>I think anyone should treat *any* ancient sewing machines with great
>respect -- everyone I've met was a great machine,

That's because the old machines you've met are the ones that didn't get
tossed on a junk heap in a foaming mouthed fit of frustration, like the
Kenmore From Hell I learned to sew on.  The best thing my mother ever did
was to trade that hunk of junk in and buy an Elna.  

Margo

"One Tough Costumer"
http://www.directcon.net/wander/main.htm

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Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 17:51:21 -0400
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-Poster: "Susan Carroll-Clark" <nicolaa@columbus.rr.com>


Greetings!

>Sari-weight silk has to be lightweight to hang right.  It's really scarfy
>and floaty, altho there is a 5" wide cotton facing at the hem (modern) to
>make the pleats behave.

Probably close to 100% of the saris you seen worn on a daily basis fit this
description.  However, many of the "special occasion" saris could not be
described as "scarfy and floaty."  I know this from first-hand experience
pawing over some of these "special" saris at a Toronto shop.  The silk is
supple, but quite dense, and usually there is some pretty serious brocading
going on (not just at the hems) which also increases the weight. These are
the kind of saris which are worn for weddings or festivals.  When lined (and
not even heavily lined) can do a pretty good job of duplicating the look of
Elizabethan silks.

Susan

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Date: Tue, 05 Oct 1999 17:01:49 -0500
To: h-costume@indra.com
From: Doris J Nash <djnash@iastate.edu>
Subject: Re: H-COST: Looking for cocoon coat pattern
In-Reply-To: <l03130303b42009574fb0@[208.225.99.146]>
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-Poster: Doris J Nash <djnash@iastate.edu>

At 01:12 PM 10/5/99 -0700, you wrote:

>-Poster: lilinah@grin.net
>
> >-Poster: Mayfair13a@aol.com
> >I am looking for a cocoon coat pattern made by Folkwear.  Folkwear has
> >discontinued it so it cannot be purchased through them.  Does anyone 
> have one
> >they wouldn't mind selling or renting?  Does anyone know where I might be
> >able to get my hands on the pattern for sale from a vendor?
>
>The Cocoon coat has not been discontinued, as it has never been released by
>Folkwear; it is in process of publication and will be released "reeeeel
>sooooon now".

         But, how can we have one here in my costume shop, if it was never 
released?  Oh, I see--you mean by Larkbooks, yes?  We got it several years 
ago, from Taunton, when they owned the line.  :-)

Doris


>Visit:
>http://www.larkbooks.com/home.nav/fw/drawingboard.html
>for updates on the release date of the cocoon coat pattern.
>
>I, too, am looking forward to being able to buy it.
>
>Check out their website:
>http://www.larkbooks.com/home.nav/fw/index.html
>for available patterns, and those discontinued patterns that remain in
>stock at a 30 per cent discount.
>
>Lilinah

Doris Nash   Ames, IA
Feed hungry children around the world--free!  Visit 
http://thehungersite.com to find out how.
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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Tue Oct  5 17:00:53 1999
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Date: Tue, 05 Oct 1999 13:08:13 -0700
To: h-costume@indra.com
From: Carolyn Kayta Barrows <kayta@slip.net>
Subject: Re: H-COST:  Name My Business
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-Poster: Carolyn Kayta Barrows <kayta@slip.net>


>Margo Anderson
>
>"One Tough Costumer"

What's wrong with what you've already got?  I've been jealous of that for a
long time.


Kayta
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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Tue Oct  5 17:00:55 1999
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Date: Tue, 05 Oct 1999 13:03:54 -0700
To: h-costume@indra.com
From: Carolyn Kayta Barrows <kayta@slip.net>
Subject: Re: H-COST: sewing machines
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 t>
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-Poster: Carolyn Kayta Barrows <kayta@slip.net>

Personally, the computerized embroidery
>looks computerized to me -- I prefer the hand-done stuff.  But if you had
>to get something done in a hurry, I could see the point of having such.

Computerized embroidery was invented for those folks who need to make 1000
of the same embroidered thing.  The rest of us got these machines later.


Kayta
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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Tue Oct  5 17:01:16 1999
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Date: Tue, 05 Oct 1999 13:05:26 -0700
To: h-costume@indra.com
From: Carolyn Kayta Barrows <kayta@slip.net>
Subject: Re: H-COST: Recommended topend machine & iron
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-Poster: Carolyn Kayta Barrows <kayta@slip.net>

I'm still looking for a Singer Featherweight 
>w/all the attachments.  We all have our dreams.

They're still around for sale, if you've got lots of money.  Ask quilters
where to get them (and what you have to hock to do so).


Kayta
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From: Jonna Hayden <jonna_hayden@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: H-COST: Recommended topend machine & iron
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-Poster: Jonna Hayden <jonna_hayden@yahoo.com>



--- Megan Irvine <mirv01@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Really! I have an ancient Kenmore that I inherited

-snip-

Maybe I should treat mine with
> more
> respect.

I have a Kenmore convertible model 1980 that I finally
killed, dead (it needs a new head, and Kenmore doesn't
make new heads for this model--supposedly they can't
be killed!). The repairman looked at it and said "aww,
you really love this machine, don't you . ." I knew I
was sunk..  It did the most gorgeous buttonholes. 
I have a Pfaff 130 (made in 1944) now and it's a good
machine, tough as nails, but it's not my Kenmore.  If
anyone out there has this model Kenmore and is willing
to part with it, you would have my undying gratitude!

Jonna


=====

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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Tue Oct  5 18:16:42 1999
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To: h-costume-digest@indra.com
Subject: H-COST: Re:   Sewing machines
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Date: Tue, 05 Oct 1999 16:36:59 PDT
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-Poster: tylerweiss@excite.com


OOps I forgot to add my message.  I have and
adore a Pfaff 7570.  It was expensive but I
have never had a days trouble with it.  I do quit
a bit of fine sewing for my daughter and myself
and its smooth action and built in walking
foot make working on tricky fabrics a breeze.
Because it is computerized finely tuned button
holes are possible.  By changing to special
needles it is possible to make entredeux and
to even do drawn thread work as the stitches
repeat with very high accuracy.  

Tyler




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From: "Andy Oppenheim" <Laguz@mediaone.net>
To: <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: RE: H-COST: Re:   Sewing machines
Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 19:47:24 -0400
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-Poster: "Andy Oppenheim" <Laguz@Mediaone.net>


I just got a europro from Fingerhut for $300 . it will also do up to 8
layers of canvas. 11 feel adjustable height and 49 stitch functions.
Andy


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Date: Tue, 05 Oct 1999 20:43:21 -0500
From: Heather Law <lynnx@enteract.com>
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Subject: H-COST: Obscure machine: "Domestic" brand "Gaiety" model
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-Poster: Heather Law <lynnx@enteract.com>

Has anyone ever heard of this machine ("Gaiety" is a decal on the
machine, "Domestic" is a metal logo)?  It's a dumpster-dive rescuee, and
seems to be stuck - stitch selector on a fancy stitch, roto thingie
won't turn :-(  It looks about the same vintage as my Singer 403 or
maybe later - but still all-metal.  Anyone out there ever heard of it,
or have any clues on what's wrong with it?

Thanks for any info, hints, help, cluelets...
Heather
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From: "Megan McHugh" <mmchugh@starpower.net>
To: <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: H-COST: Sewing machine recommendations......etc.
Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 21:43:29 -0400
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-Poster: "Megan McHugh" <mmchugh@starpower.net>

Sewing machines...... Let's see, I learned on my mother's circa 1939 Singer,
and currently own 1. a 16 year old Sears Kenmore, needs a tuneup but works
just fine
 2. a 1930s vintage singer, electric,  3. a Sears Kenmore serger, 2 or 3
years old, and my newest aquisition, a singer hand crank 1920s or 30s
vintage.  I guess I like the old Singers.  I still drool over the new ones,
but this entire collection cost less than one of them.  And that cost has
been spread out over 16 years.  I got the 1930s electric one so my step kids
can learn to sew on something they can't kill.  I have trouble justifying
spending more for a sewing machine than I have for all but two of my cars,
after all.

On another note - perhaps I spend too much time in the fabric store.... Last
Sunday, I was in the local JoAnn's, looking for a Xena pattern for my
stepdaughter's halloween costume.  The saleslady came up to me, asked if I
was the costume lady, and when I said yes, asked me what a farthingale was.
It seems the day before someone had come into the store wanting to "build a
farthingale" and no one in the store knew what she was talking about.
Thanks to this list, I do.  Now, so does the saleslady!!!!

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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Tue Oct  5 20:31:26 1999
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From: "Gia Gavino-Gattshall" <ggavino@serv.net>
To: <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: H-COST: recycling/questions-sewing machines
Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 18:45:06 -0700
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-Poster: "Gia Gavino-Gattshall" <ggavino@serv.net>

Oh migosh!

Pfaff has declared bankruptcy!!!  I thought it was *Singer* that did that...

I love my Pfaffs.  Wonderful machines.

Gia/Giacinta


>> I'd recommend a Pfaff.
>
>I'd be leery myself - Pfaff recently declared bankruptcy and while that
>doesn't spell their death knell yet, it's not a good sign.  I vote for
>New Home/Janome.  But talk about your bells and whistles!


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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Tue Oct  5 21:21:19 1999
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From: "Genevieve de Courtanvaux" <gdc@airmail.net>
To: <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: H-COST: recycling/questions-sewing machines
Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 21:15:37 -0500
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-Poster: "Genevieve de Courtanvaux" <gdc@airmail.net>

Singer did declare bankruptcy. But, they are restructuring.
Carol Ross
-----Original Message-----
From: Gia Gavino-Gattshall <ggavino@serv.net>
To: h-costume@indra.com <h-costume@indra.com>
Date: Tuesday, October 05, 1999 8:50 PM
Subject: Re: H-COST: recycling/questions-sewing machines


>
>-Poster: "Gia Gavino-Gattshall" <ggavino@serv.net>
>
>Oh migosh!
>
>Pfaff has declared bankruptcy!!!  I thought it was *Singer* that did
that...
>
>I love my Pfaffs.  Wonderful machines.
>
>Gia/Giacinta
>
>
>>> I'd recommend a Pfaff.
>>
>>I'd be leery myself - Pfaff recently declared bankruptcy and while that
>>doesn't spell their death knell yet, it's not a good sign.  I vote for
>>New Home/Janome.  But talk about your bells and whistles!

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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Tue Oct  5 21:28:45 1999
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From: "Gia Gavino-Gattshall" <ggavino@serv.net>
To: <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: H-COST: recycling/questions-sewing machines
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-Poster: "Gia Gavino-Gattshall" <ggavino@serv.net>

Ah!

Restructuring is better than going completely belly up.

Gia/Giacinta

>
>-Poster: "Genevieve de Courtanvaux" <gdc@airmail.net>
>
>Singer did declare bankruptcy. But, they are restructuring.
>Carol Ross
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Gia Gavino-Gattshall <ggavino@serv.net>
>To: h-costume@indra.com <h-costume@indra.com>
>Date: Tuesday, October 05, 1999 8:50 PM
>Subject: Re: H-COST: recycling/questions-sewing machines
>
>
>>
>>-Poster: "Gia Gavino-Gattshall" <ggavino@serv.net>
>>
>>Oh migosh!
>>
>>Pfaff has declared bankruptcy!!!  I thought it was *Singer* that did
>that...
>>
>>I love my Pfaffs.  Wonderful machines.
>>
>>Gia/Giacinta


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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Tue Oct  5 22:39:56 1999
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From: "Michelle" <mandrake@mypad.com>
To: <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: H-COST: Re: sewing machines
Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 21:03:24 -0700
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-Poster: "Michelle" <mandrake@mypad.com>

>They got some and demonstrated it, and of course it worked perfectly. Well,
>being a skeptical sort, I suspected foul play. But it's really true. Stick
on
>a spool of Dual Duty, and I'm sunk. So now I scout for sales and whenever
>possible I only sew with black and white thread, because you can get it in
>bigger spools. It's not a big problem, but it is a bit of a pain.
>
>So there's something else to look out for when buying a machine!
>
>Gail Finke

  This is true.  I have been scolded by my Viking repairman because of all
the thread I had wrapped around the mechanisms.  Of the cone threads, he
said I could ONLY use 'Maxi-lock'. Maxi-lock comes in a few more colors than
black and white here.  He, also, said to check other brands of  thread
thoroughly for smoothness, if I wanted to use them, or they will catch in
the machine. I can't use Dual Duty either.
Michelle

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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Tue Oct  5 22:43:38 1999
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From: Kimberly Gilbert <kimberlygilbert@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: H-COST: Crystal Pleated Gauze?
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-Poster: Kimberly Gilbert <kimberlygilbert@worldnet.att.net>

Can anyone tell me what crystal pleated gauze is?  The new
Simplicity Elizabethan pattern calls for it for the ruff,
but I have no idea what it is (or where to obtain it).  Any
help would be appreciated.

Kimberly

Kimberly Gilbert	    kimberlygilbert@worldnet.att.net
"This is terrible news!  Do you actually intend to kill your 
enemies?  Can't you just speak sternly to them?"--Tim Rice
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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Tue Oct  5 22:51:43 1999
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From: "HICKS, MELISSA" <HICKS_M@casa.gov.au>
To: "'h-costume@indra.com'" <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: H-COST: Accessing the H-Costume archives
Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1999 14:06:25 +1000 
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-Poster: "HICKS, MELISSA" <HICKS_M@casa.gov.au>

Greetings,

Sorry if this seems an absurd question, but I was wondering if someone could
please email me privately and advise how I can access the H-Costume
archives?

I asked this question about a week ago but received no responses.

Thanks for your time.

Mel.
meliora@sca.org.au
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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Tue Oct  5 23:48:44 1999
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Date: Wed, 06 Oct 1999 01:05:21 -0400
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-Poster: Janice Dallas <janicedals@mediaone.net>

According to the info I got in March, the Archives-of-a-sort may be
found at
http://www.reference.com
-- 
Janice Dallas
JaniceDals@MediaOne.net
"Just so, the girl has beauty, virtue, wit..."
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Date: Wed, 06 Oct 1999 01:05:28 -0400
To: h-costume@indra.com
From: Danielle Nunn <dnunn@interlog.com>
Subject: Re: H-COST: Sari Silk - Elizabethan
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-Poster: Danielle Nunn <dnunn@interlog.com>

Greetings,

>>Could you use sari silk as a part of Elizabethan or Tudor?

Yes, depending on the type of sari.  I use them all the time - it's just a
matter of hunting until you find the right pattern or go for a completely
plain one.  When asking for a sari ask for Banarsi (it's a specific style
of weaving from a specific region).

>Sari-weight silk has to be lightweight to hang right.  It's really >scarfy
and floaty, altho there is a 5" wide cotton facing at the hem >(modern) to
make the pleats behave.

That's very strange.  I've never seen that cotton facing thing up here.
They must be different in the Southern US.  At the Indian stores in Toronto
you can find sari of all different weights of silk and other fibers.  It's
actually quite easy here to find nice heavy silk saris particularily the
wedding saris.

>Elizabethan or Tudor silks were stiffer than that.

I also don't think that ALL Elizabethan or Tudor silks were stiff.  Just be
sure to use an appropriate weight for what you're doing.

So, my opinon: have fun with the sari and enjoy.  It's certainly better
than using polyester or dupioni etc.

>IF you got appropriately patterned silk, and IF you lined the bejeebers
>out of it to make sure it was stiff enough, you'd probably end up with
>the right look. 

Actually, that reminded me.  I have a copy of a picture (cotton wall
hanging) from India (which I believe is in the V&A) which is late
16th/early 17th century.  It shows a blending of Indian and English stuff.
It shows two women and two men in (mostly) English style clothing made up
in Indian fabrics with the typical Indian patterns.  Admittedly, it is only
one reference but, it does show a definite crossover.

It can be found on p. 57 of "The Story of Britain" by A.L. Rowse. Artus
Publishing Company Ltd., London.  Reprinted 1993.  ISBN 0 297 83311 1

Cheers, 
Danielle


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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Tue Oct  5 23:57:22 1999
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From: The Purple Elephant <csmart@physics.adelaide.edu.au>
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-Poster: The Purple Elephant <csmart@physics.adelaide.edu.au>

On Wed, 6 Oct 1999, Danielle Nunn wrote:

> 
> So, my opinon: have fun with the sari and enjoy.  It's certainly better
> than using polyester or dupioni etc.
> 
So, just out of curiosity, when does Dupioni first turn up? Is it entirely
modern?
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Claire F. Clarke       "What is this world if, full of care, 
Physicist, writer,     We have no time to stand and stare?"
and non environmentally                     Robert Louis Stevenson
friendly substance.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Wed Oct  6 00:01:08 1999
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Date: Wed, 06 Oct 1999 00:11:09 -0500
To: h-costume-digest@indra.com
From: Pierre & Sandy Pettinger <costumrs@radiks.net>
Subject: H-COST: Re: irons and sewing machines - long
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-Poster: Pierre & Sandy Pettinger <costumrs@radiks.net>

Irons:  We currently have a Rowenta that works very well - it replaced one
that landed point first on a concrete floor and did the exploding grenade
trick.  I just wish the new one had the old one's non-stick plate.  I
really hate cleaning fusible interfacing gunk off it.  We bought a cheap
Hamilton Beach with Teflon plate for fusing.  Previously we went thru about
3 Black and Decker's which were about the best for under $50. (This was
over about 7 years - back then they were the only ones with auto shut-off,
which was essential.)

Sewing machines:  We currently have 5 machines and 1 serger, of which 2 of
the machines are very dead and one is used rarely.  The serger is a White
superlock which I love, but wish it had auto-rolled-hem.  It is almost as
heavy as the old metal sewing machine, but this keeps it from dancing
around on the table (and it doesn't need suction cup feet).  The dead
machines are a very low-end New Home, which was a pain in the neck from day
one, and not worth what was paid for it.  The other is a Singer (10 yrs or
so old) that was my mother's, and it is worthless.  My DH liked it when it
worked, but if you hit an obstruction, it immediately jumped so far out of
tune that the needle would hit the hook on the way down.  Just not worth
tuning it up every other day.  

The seldom-used one is a Kenmore, about 15 yrs old - the "super high bar"
model.  I don't know who made it, but it was/is a really good machine.  It
just became so frustrating to find feet for it, and my skills expanded
beyond it, that I had to get a new one.  We still use it for leather,
vinyl, denim, etc. because it laughs at 8 layers of denim.  It just doesn't
feed as well as it used to.

My current machine is a Janome/New Home 8000 - it's about 6 years old.  It
was one of the first true embroidery machines, and I have used it for
several things.  I even have the scanner, though haven't used it much -
it's an art to get your drawings dark enough to scan and sew properly.  It
sews really well, has about 100 different stitches including about 8 types
of buttonhole, and has needed only minor tune-ups since I got it.  It is no
longer available, the 9000 has replaced it.

My DH has just acquired Viking/Husqvarna's new Designer 1 with all the
professional software for embroidery design.  It sews really well, but I
personally find the auto presser-foot lift annoying.  There is no lever for
this, it is done by a button.  It also does embroidery, has a 6" x 10" hoop
area, and instead of digitizing to RAM cards, you plug the floppy disk
directly into the machine.  We're still figuring out the nuances of
digitizing - the software is pretty good, but you need to get a practical
feel for stitch density and angles.

I agree however, you need to find the machine that works for YOU.

Sandy

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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Wed Oct  6 00:01:38 1999
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Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1999 01:15:28 EDT
Subject: Re: H-COST: recycling/questions-sewing machines
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-Poster: MzScahlett@aol.com

In a message dated 10/5/1999 18:45:56 Pacific Daylight Time, ggavino@serv.net 
writes:

<< Oh migosh! 
 Pfaff has declared bankruptcy!!!  I thought it was *Singer* that did that...
  I love my Pfaffs.  Wonderful machines. 
 Gia/Giacinta
  >>

Relax... I believe that Pfaff has filed (Chapter 11) which is essentially a 
form of consolidating loans to get out of debt.  It provides protection from 
creditors while restructuring. Pfaff is owned by Singer, so it's kinda the 
same deal.  I'd bet neither company will be disappearing ... so enjoy your 
machine, I do believe that there's no reason to panic.

angela

+++++
Angela F. Lazear
Costumes & Custom Clothing
Theatrical Costume Design
"O, what a world of vile ill-favored faults  looks handsome in three hundred 
pounds a year!..."
The Merry Wives of Windsor, III, iv - W. Shakespeare

QUICK-LINK: http://come.to/costumes
FULL URL:  http://sj.znet.com/~thespian/angil/index.html
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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Wed Oct  6 00:04:03 1999
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From: The Purple Elephant <csmart@physics.adelaide.edu.au>
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Subject: Re: H-COST: Gardecorps (was Houppelande)
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-Poster: The Purple Elephant <csmart@physics.adelaide.edu.au>

On Sat, 2 Oct 1999, Henk 't Jong wrote:

> 
> -Poster: "Henk 't Jong" <scapreel@tip.nl>
> 
> The point is: this may be the forerunner of the gardecorps, were it not for
> the fact that they seem to be worn during the same period. I haven't as yet
> found a similar garment before ca 1230, though. You may ask yourself in the
> mean time: why would they want to have the arms free from these relatively
> short sleeves: they don't interfere with work...
> 
Maybe it's a form of conspicuous consumption among the emerging middle
classes? They may not interfere with physical work, but would they 
interfere with work that involved a lot of writing/drawing (such as an
engineer, lawyer or architect might do)? 

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Claire F. Clarke       "What is this world if, full of care, 
Physicist, writer,     We have no time to stand and stare?"
and non environmentally                     Robert Louis Stevenson
friendly substance.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Wed Oct  6 00:09:21 1999
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From: "HICKS, MELISSA" <HICKS_M@casa.gov.au>
To: "'h-costume-digest@indra.com'" <h-costume-digest@indra.com>
Subject: H-COST: Accessing the H-Costume archives
Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1999 15:24:50 +1000 
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-Poster: "HICKS, MELISSA" <HICKS_M@casa.gov.au>

Janice,

Thanks for this but the link doesn't bring up any information for me and the
"Parent Directory" doesn't seem to go anywhere.  Can anyone please advise?
In private if necessary if I'm just being incredibly dense.

> According to the info I got in March, the Archives-of-a-sort may be
> found at
> http://www.reference.com
> 
Thanks
Mel.


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Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1999 00:37:18 -0500 (CDT)
From: Robin Netherton <robin@shell.nightowl.net>
To: h-costume@indra.com
Subject: Re: H-COST: Accessing the H-Costume archives
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-Poster: Robin Netherton <robin@shell.nightowl.net>


On Wed, 6 Oct 1999, Janice Dallas wrote:

> According to the info I got in March, the Archives-of-a-sort may be
> found at
> http://www.reference.com

Digests going back several years are held in a searchable archive at
<http://sca.uwaterloo.ca/~fashion/archives>. Bravo to Eric Praetzel for
providing this invaluable resource. I have spent many hours browsing this
archive.

--Robin




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From: "Carol J. Bell Cannon" <cjcannon@greymists.com>
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-Poster: "Carol J. Bell Cannon" <cjcannon@greymists.com>

At 09:03 PM 10/05/1999 -0700, you wrote: -Poster: "Michelle"
<mandrake@mypad.com> 
Stick on a spool of Dual Duty, and I'm sunk. So now I Gail Finke
   This is true.  I have been scolded by my Viking repairman because of all
>the thread I had wrapped around the mechanisms.  Of the cone threads, he
>said I could ONLY use 'Maxi-lock'. Maxi-lock comes in a few more colors than
>black and white here.  He, also, said to check other brands of  thread
>thoroughly for smoothness, if I wanted to use them, or they will catch in
>the machine. I can't use Dual Duty either.
>Michelle
        So maybe the makers of thread that won't work in our machines need
to hear a write in letter campaign from us each saying that they're losing
a lot of money because we can't/won't buy their product as long as it costs
us extra time/money/repair bills/frustration.  Carol
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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Wed Oct  6 02:01:17 1999
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From: rio@austin.rr.com (StrangeGirl)
To: h-costume@indra.com
Subject: Re: H-COST: Looking for cocoon coat pattern
Date: Wed, 06 Oct 1999 07:11:42 GMT
Organization: The Corner of my Desk
Message-ID: <37faf4e7.51024747@smtp-server.austin.rr.com>
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-Poster: rio@austin.rr.com (StrangeGirl)

On Tue, 5 Oct 1999 13:12:26 -0700, the following was written in this
electric book by lilinah@grin.net:


>The Cocoon coat has not been discontinued, as it has never been released by
>Folkwear; it is in process of publication and will be released "reeeeel
>sooooon now".

It has been issued already and then withdrawn, right after Taunton
bought Folkwear, about 6 or 8 years ago, I think. My mother made one
from this pattern, not long after they released it, many years ago
(when they first started doing the Met collection, I think). It would
probably have been in the late 80's, I guess. Memory is dim.

I remember that my mother's coat was GORGEOUS, but everything my mom
makes is gorgeous. I don't recall whether she had trouble with the
pattern, since she probably re-drafted it to her size and kept the
paper intact, she may not have noticed inconsistencies.

I'm glad to hear that they are reissuing it.

Margery
"Do you have any files?"
"We're the government, of course we have files."
Millenium
{*to reply take spambegone from my reply-to address*}
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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Wed Oct  6 03:22:47 1999
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From: "Craig Jones & Melissa Hicks" <meliora@macquarie.matra.com.au>
To: <h-costume@indra.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.991006003257.2232C-100000@shell.nightowl.net>
Subject: Re: H-COST: Accessing the H-Costume archives
Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1999 18:38:54 +1000
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-Poster: "Craig Jones & Melissa Hicks" <meliora@macquarie.matra.com.au>

Robin,

> Digests going back several years are held in a searchable archive at
> <http://sca.uwaterloo.ca/~fashion/archives>. Bravo to Eric Praetzel for
> providing this invaluable resource. I have spent many hours browsing this
> archive.

Thank you, thank you, thank you.  This is just what I needed !!!

Many thanks
Mel.

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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Wed Oct  6 05:50:04 1999
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From: "Christopher Ballis" <stilskin@netspace.net.au>
To: <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: H-COST:  Name My Business
Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1999 20:46:26 +1000
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-Poster: "Christopher Ballis" <stilskin@netspace.net.au>

Cutesy-pie's Lovable Costume Emporium?

----------
> From: Carolyn Kayta Barrows <kayta@slip.net>
> To: h-costume@indra.com
> Subject: Re: H-COST:  Name My Business
> Date: 06 October 1999 06:08
> 
> 
> -Poster: Carolyn Kayta Barrows <kayta@slip.net>
> 
> 
> >Margo Anderson
> >
> >"One Tough Costumer"
> 
> What's wrong with what you've already got?  I've been jealous of that for
a
> long time.
> 
> 
> Kayta
>      ////.\\\
>     ////-@@\\\
>    ((((   7 (((
>      |   -- ))))
>      * )   (((((
>   /----\   /---\
> 
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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Wed Oct  6 05:54:09 1999
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From: "Franchesca Havas" <ches@io.com>
To: <h-costume@indra.com>
References: <617939F93346D1119D0E0060B01B0B56019AC0BB@ACT02EXC001>
Subject: Re: H-COST: Accessing the H-Costume archives
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-Poster: "Franchesca Havas" <ches@io.com>

And if that link does not work you can still access them at my ftp site
zipped up.

ftp://ftp.io.com/pub/usr/ches

Sincerely,
F. Havas
Dallas, Texas
motto: Numquam scribae ridente fide

----- Original Message -----
From: HICKS, MELISSA <HICKS_M@casa.gov.au>
To: <h-costume-digest@indra.com>
Sent: Wednesday, October 06, 1999 12:24 AM
Subject: H-COST: Accessing the H-Costume archives


:
: -Poster: "HICKS, MELISSA" <HICKS_M@casa.gov.au>
:
: Janice,
:
: Thanks for this but the link doesn't bring up any information for me and
the
: "Parent Directory" doesn't seem to go anywhere.  Can anyone please advise?
: In private if necessary if I'm just being incredibly dense.
:
: > According to the info I got in March, the Archives-of-a-sort may be
: > found at
: > http://www.reference.com
: >
: Thanks
: Mel.
:
:
:  _________________________________________________________________
:  To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com
:  with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME
:

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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Wed Oct  6 05:58:50 1999
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From: "Martha Kelly" <marthakelly@erols.com>
To: <h-costume@indra.com>
References: <3.0.3.32.19991006001109.03f0d6a4@radiks.net>
Subject: H-COST: New Rowenta
Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1999 06:50:08 -0400
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-Poster: "Martha Kelly" <marthakelly@erols.com>

My new Rowenta, replacing the one I dropped, of course, looks just like the
dearly departed.  It has a shiny steel soleplate.  But the old one glided
and the new one is somehow sluggish/sticky.  It is clean and I haven't
scratched it - yet.

Has anybody experienced this?  What do you recommend?


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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Wed Oct  6 07:05:35 1999
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Date: Wed, 06 Oct 1999 05:15:38 -0700
To: h-costume@indra.com
From: "Carol J. Bell Cannon" <cjcannon@greymists.com>
Subject: Re: H-COST: New Rowenta
In-Reply-To: <003901bf0fe8$8eea1cc0$fae37ad1@martha>
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-Poster: "Carol J. Bell Cannon" <cjcannon@greymists.com>

At 06:50 AM 10/06/1999 -0400, you wrote:
>
>-Poster: "Martha Kelly" <marthakelly@erols.com>
>
>My new Rowenta, replacing the one I dropped, of course, looks just like the
>dearly departed.  It has a shiny steel soleplate.  But the old one glided
>and the new one is somehow sluggish/sticky.  It is clean and I haven't
>scratched it - yet.
>
>Has anybody experienced this?  What do you recommend?
               My thought was--can the soleplate of one replace the other?
-- Carol
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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Wed Oct  6 07:46:25 1999
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Date: Wed, 06 Oct 1999 14:56:54 +0200
To: h-costume-digest@indra.com
From: Barbara Maren Winkler <barbara@math.tu-berlin.de>
Subject: H-COST: velvet, velveteen, plush
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-Poster: Barbara Maren Winkler <barbara@math.tu-berlin.de>

Definitions [summary], and a question.

Velvet is a fabric with a pile which is formed by an auxiliary warp. It is
laid into loops during the weaving process and those loops cut open. 

Velveteen is a fabric where the pile is formed by an auxiliary weft, laid
into loops and cut open later. Cotton in Europe before the 18th century
tended to be too weak for making a warp, therefore would often be used as
weft only in a fabric with a silk or linen warp; hence the usage of having
velveteen with a cotton (weft) pile. [Cf. "satin" and "sateen" where sateen
means really a weft-faced and satin a warp-faced fabric, but "sateen" is
often used just to denote a cotton satin.]

All of this is not new, I just summarize former list posts.

But I recently learned the following from a woman who had been a worker in
a plush weaving factory:

According to her, plush is a fabric woven double, with two warps, one top
and one bottom warp. The pile is formed by extra threads which go up and
down between the two warp layers. The layers are cut apart by cutting the
connecting pile threads, so that two lengths of fabric come off the loom at
once.

So, all three terms seem to be defined by weaving technology, not by
material. However, there seem to be the following traditions:
To make velvet in silk, cotton, or wool;
velveteen in cotton or synthetics;
plush in wool, wool mixes, or acrylic.

A dictionary "Basic knowledge of textile production" I looked into today
defined, on the contrary, velvet to be a fabric with less than 3mm pile,
plush a fabric with long pile longer than 3mm. Where 3mm are approximately
1/8 inch.

[Also, there is frottee, the stuff that towels are made from. Initially, it
should be woven in a technique similar to velvet or velveteen, with the
difference that the loops are never cut open, and that it is always made of
cotton. These days, however, it seems that it is an ordinary plain weave
fabric with a specific weft thread that comes with the loops already in it.]


There doesn't seem to be a distinction between velvet and velveteen in
German, at least I have found none. Maybe "Kettsamt" and "Schusssamt".

But there are more fabrics around here with a pile and velvety appearance.
One is Panné velvet, a very shiny crushed velvet made of polyester or rayon
where the base fabric is a knitted, not a woven fabric, so it stretches.
The polyester varieties have been pretty cheap the last few years
(unavailable before that), and it looks good, so people use it a lot for
decoration. (And costumes. Probably inauthentic when supposed to be
historic.) Another fabric type is "Nicki", also a fabric with velvety pile
where the base fabric is knitted. "Nicki" is not shiny. It is a cotton or
synthetic fabric normally used for children's clothes and sportswear.

What would these two varieties be called in English?


Barbara Maren

--
Barbara Maren Winkler                         barbara@math.tu-berlin.de

  
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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Wed Oct  6 07:47:50 1999
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To: h-costume@indra.com
From: Melanie Schuessler <melanie@faucet.net>
Subject: H-COST: mystery portrait
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-Poster: Melanie Schuessler <melanie@faucet.net>

Greetings to the List!

I have a mystery and ask your aid.  On page 129 of _Queen Elizabeth's
Wardrobe Unlock'd_, there is a portrait (figure 200) whose caption runs as
follows:

'Portrait of an unknown Italian lady', by an unknown artist, c. 1570-80.
Her deep mulberry jerkin is heavily embroidered with gold thread and pearls
and lies open at the neck, revealing the striped silk beneath.  Present
whereabouts unknown.

Notice the number of "unknowns" in this caption!  What I am looking for is
a color reproduction of this portrait.  For those of you whose households
are unblessed by this book, here is a little further description:  the
portrait is from about waist up, and the lady has on a light (probably
white) doublet with stripes (probably gold) with narrowish sleeves and a
smallish ruff under an embroidered jerkin with fairly puffy shoulder rolls.
The neck of the jerkin lies open to reveal the top few buttons of the
doublet.  Around her neck is a strand of pearls caught up at the bottom of
the jerkin opening and sporting a very large pendant with two square-cut
stones and a hanging teardrop pearl.

Sound familiar?
Thanks for your help!
Melanie


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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Wed Oct  6 07:56:37 1999
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Subject: Re: H-COST: velvet, velveteen, plush
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-Poster: SAQUEEN@aol.com

18th century velvets, velverets, velveteens, corduroy and a wide range of 
textiles belonged under a large category called fustian. Fustians were linen 
and cotton and 100% cotton, mainly woven in the Manchester, England area.

Beverly Lemire's book, _Fashion's Favourite: The Cotton Trade and the 
Consumer in Britain, 1660 - 1800_ is a great resource. It always helps to 
know the beginning of a textile to trace through changes over time.

Sally Queen
Calendar 2000: Historic Fashions Turning the Centuries
http://www.sallyqueenassociates.com
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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Wed Oct  6 08:09:48 1999
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-Poster: Hope Greenberg <hope.greenberg@uvm.edu>

>Another fabric type is "Nicki", also a fabric with velvety pile
>where the base fabric is knitted. "Nicki" is not shiny. It is a cotton or
>synthetic fabric normally used for children's clothes and sportswear.

>What would these two varieties be called in English?

I don't really know but it sounds like what we call velour.
Traditionally (traditionally--like say the last 25 years?) velour had a
cotton/poly knit backing and pile, so was not too shiny. I've noticed in
the last few years that a greater number of velours are being made from
poly/rayon or poly/acetate and so are not quite as soft but definitely
have more shimmer.

- Hope
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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Wed Oct  6 08:27:59 1999
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Subject: Re: H-COST: New Rowenta
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-Poster: kat@grendal.rain.com


> My new Rowenta, replacing the one I dropped, of course, looks just like the
> dearly departed.  It has a shiny steel soleplate.  But the old one glided
> and the new one is somehow sluggish/sticky.  It is clean and I haven't
> scratched it - yet.

When I got my new Rowenta a few years ago, it had a coating on the 
soleplate that had to be removed before use. I suspect that without 
removing it, it would be sticky. (As I recall, there were directions 
which told how to do it. I remember grousing as I was using it over 
and over on a paper towel. However, I don't remember if it was a hot 
or cold iron or if some substance aided the removal.) I suggest 
reading the box or instruction sheet.


Kat 

Kat(June Russell)
kat@grendal.rain.com
Heu! Tintinnuntius meus Sonat!
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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Wed Oct  6 09:04:14 1999
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Subject: H-COST: Recommendations for good solid basic how to sew books
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-Poster: cynthia j ley <cley@juno.com>

I need to learn to sew with a machine, something I haven't done since 7th
grade Home Ec. I have a good machine which needs to be reconditioned and
that's no problem, but was wondering if anyone might have any
recommendations for a good solid text on sewing. I need to learn how to
make everything from gathered skirts to drapes.

Many thanks!



					Arlys





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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Wed Oct  6 09:49:14 1999
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Subject: Re: H-COST: Recommendations for good solid basic how to sew books
Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1999 11:04:49 -0500
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-Poster: Elisee du Lyonnais <elisee@sewingcentral.com>

I have heard many people recommend the Vogue sewing book for basic 
instruction, but I find that _Simplicity's Simply the Best Sewing Book_ 
is easy to understand and very complete with basic and intermediate 
sewing instruction, including a section on understanding your machine and 
sergers.  For pattern fitting, I recommend Nancy Zieman's _Fitting 
Finesse_.

Lisee

cynthia j ley wrote:

>
>-Poster: cynthia j ley <cley@juno.com>
>
>I need to learn to sew with a machine, something I haven't done since 7th
>grade Home Ec. I have a good machine which needs to be reconditioned and
>that's no problem, but was wondering if anyone might have any
>recommendations for a good solid text on sewing. I need to learn how to
>make everything from gathered skirts to drapes.
>
>Many thanks!
>
>
>
>					Arlys
>
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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Wed Oct  6 09:51:30 1999
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Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1999 10:09:06 -0500 (CDT)
From: Emma Elizabeth Lehman <00217146@bigred.unl.edu>
To: h-costume@indra.com
Subject: Re: H-COST: Sari Silk - Elizabethan
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19991006010528.009aabb0@mail.interlog.com>
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-Poster: Emma Elizabeth Lehman <00217146@bigred.unl.edu>


Everybody's talking about using saris in various types of garb; out of
curiosity, as someone living in a place where saris just aren't seen, how
much do the nice, heavy, somewhat appropriate wedding saris cost?

Emma

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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Wed Oct  6 11:29:34 1999
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From: Robin Netherton <robin@shell.nightowl.net>
To: h-costume@indra.com
Subject: Re: H-COST: velvet, velveteen, plush
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19991006145654.009d9c30@130.149.12.212>
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-Poster: Robin Netherton <robin@shell.nightowl.net>


On Wed, 6 Oct 1999, Barbara Maren Winkler wrote (from Germany, I think):

> But there are more fabrics around here with a pile and velvety appearance.
> One is Panné velvet, a very shiny crushed velvet made of polyester or rayon
> where the base fabric is a knitted, not a woven fabric, so it stretches.
> The polyester varieties have been pretty cheap the last few years
> (unavailable before that), and it looks good, so people use it a lot for
> decoration. (And costumes. Probably inauthentic when supposed to be
> historic.) Another fabric type is "Nicki", also a fabric with velvety pile
> where the base fabric is knitted. "Nicki" is not shiny. It is a cotton or
> synthetic fabric normally used for children's clothes and sportswear.
> 
> What would these two varieties be called in English?

We have panne in English. Would the latter example be the same as our
velour?

--Robin




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Date: Wed, 06 Oct 1999 11:52:49 -0500
From: Marc Carlson <marc-carlson@utulsa.edu>
Subject: H-COST: "Costume Language" by Davies
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-Poster: Marc Carlson <marc-carlson@utulsa.edu>

I just got this in from ILL, and just flipping through it, I see that
it's a major work of compiling, and I'm sorry to see that Ms. Davies died
before it was fully done.  It's possible that she would have corrected some
of the problems I'm seeing just on a quickie flip through.
1.  No citations.  I have no idea where she got these definitions at all.  
This means that some of these definitions are just there with no explanation
(e.g., "BICE - Blue or Green pigments made from hydrocarbonate of copper. 
Term in use since the reign of Arthur" - Excuse Me???)
2.  Some of the definitions I know are wrong, which does not make me
confindent
about those I don't know anything about (e.g. Horned helmets on Vikings).

It looks like a lot of hard work went into this one.  I'm sorry we didn't get
to see the finished product.

Marc
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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Wed Oct  6 12:04:56 1999
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Date: Wed, 06 Oct 1999 12:15:41 -0500 (CDT)
From: marc-carlson@utulsa.edu
Subject: H-COST: Gores again
To: h-costume@indra.com
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-Poster: marc-carlson@utulsa.edu


Several weeks ago, I suggested that the side panels on 
the Hjerolfsnes #38 and #41 were not gores.  Ok, I've 
had it 'splained to me that I was wrong.  In this 
context, a "Gore" is a wedge shaped piece of fabric, 
usually triangular, which are used to "produce the 
difference in width between two points of a garment" 
(e.g. the narrowing of a waist).  In this context, it's 
even a Medieval term , and is derived from a term for a 
spear-head.

The triangular pieces set into the slits in the body of 
the skirts (and on some, in the sides, are also 
technically "Gores", but more specifically they are 
"godets" (although in this context, this appears to be a 
Victorian term - in the Middle Ages, a godet was a 
drinking cup, from Goddard).

My apologies for the misinformation. I'll try to do 
better next time.  

For the record, I still hate the term "10-gore dress", 
and I still maintain they weren't "tightly fitted".

Marc
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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Wed Oct  6 12:18:41 1999
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From: "Henk 't Jong" <scapreel@tip.nl>
To: <h-costume@indra.com>
References: <199910052000.NAA16223@apollo.directcon.net>
Subject: Re: H-COST:  Name My Business
Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1999 18:46:22 +0200
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-Poster: "Henk 't Jong" <scapreel@tip.nl>

Henk & Pauline 't Jong
tScapreel
Medieval Advisors
Dordrecht, Netherlands
----- 

What about:
"(One) Tough Costumer"?

Henk

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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Wed Oct  6 12:20:10 1999
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Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1999 13:32:23 EDT
Subject: Re: H-COST: mystery portrait
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-Poster: MzScahlett@aol.com

In a message dated 10/6/1999 06:02:22 Pacific Daylight Time, 
melanie@faucet.net writes:

<< 'Portrait of an unknown Italian lady', by an unknown artist, c. 1570-80.
 Her deep mulberry jerkin is heavily embroidered with gold thread and pearls
 and lies open at the neck, revealing the striped silk beneath.  Present
 whereabouts unknown. >>

Have you tried comparing the sitter to other portraits in the book where you 
might find a suspected artist? Then you could search the art websites by 
artist, or maybe you should just try searching them by year.

If you could provide a scan of the portrait, so that we could see what you're 
looking for, perhaps I might have it in my database of acquired 
portraiture... the written description sounds like so many Elizabethan 
portraits.

angela

+++++
Angela F. Lazear
Costumes & Custom Clothing
Theatrical Costume Design
"So far as my coin would stretch; and where it would not
I have used my credit."
King Henry the Fourth; I, ii - W. Shakespeare


QUICK-LINK: http://come.to/costumes
FULL URL: http://sj.znet.com/~thespian/angil/index.html
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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Wed Oct  6 12:20:45 1999
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From: "Henk 't Jong" <scapreel@tip.nl>
To: <h-costume@indra.com>
References: <Pine.SUN.3.90.991006155020.1090C-100000@muon>
Subject: Re: H-COST: Gardecorps (was Houppelande)
Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1999 19:17:56 +0200
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-Poster: "Henk 't Jong" <scapreel@tip.nl>

Henk & Pauline 't Jong
tScapreel
Medieval Advisors
Dordrecht, Netherlands
Hi,

I wrote:
> > The point is: this may be the forerunner of the gardecorps, were it not
for
> > the fact that they seem to be worn during the same period. I haven't as
yet
> > found a similar garment before ca 1230, though. You may ask yourself in
the
> > mean time: why would they want to have the arms free from these
relatively
> > short sleeves: they don't interfere with work...
> >
Claire wrote:
> Maybe it's a form of conspicuous consumption among the emerging middle
> classes? They may not interfere with physical work, but would they
> interfere with work that involved a lot of writing/drawing (such as an
> engineer, lawyer or architect might do)?

Funny thing is that one of the first good views of a gardecorps is that of
an architect. It concerns the graveslab of Hugues Libergier, civilian and
master builder of St Nicaise church in Reims, who died 1263. The slab is
from a few years after that. (See: Nicola Coldstream, Masons and Sculptors,
British Museum Press, 1991, p. 15)

There are several gardecorpses (!) in a MS in Cambridge University, with
shortish and longer sleeves, dating from ca 1260, and they are worn by a
king (st Edward), nobility and clergy, so they were not only worn by
professional men. Conspicious consumption they certainly were...

Henk


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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Wed Oct  6 12:34:14 1999
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 <l03130303b42009574fb0@[208.225.99.146]>
Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1999 10:46:41 -0700
To: h-costume@indra.com
From: Lynn Downward <ldownward@chori.org>
Subject: Re: H-COST: Looking for cocoon coat pattern
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-Poster: Lynn Downward <ldownward@chori.org>

>-Poster: rio@austin.rr.com (StrangeGirl)
>
>On Tue, 5 Oct 1999 13:12:26 -0700, the following was written in this
>electric book by lilinah@grin.net:
>
>
>>The Cocoon coat has not been discontinued, as it has never been released by
>>Folkwear; it is in process of publication and will be released "reeeeel
>>sooooon now".
>
>It has been issued already and then withdrawn, right after Taunton
>bought Folkwear, about 6 or 8 years ago, I think. My mother made one
>from this pattern, not long after they released it, many years ago
>(when they first started doing the Met collection, I think). It would
>probably have been in the late 80's, I guess. Memory is dim.
>
>I remember that my mother's coat was GORGEOUS, but everything my mom
>makes is gorgeous. I don't recall whether she had trouble with the
>pattern, since she probably re-drafted it to her size and kept the
>paper intact, she may not have noticed inconsistencies.
>
>I'm glad to hear that they are reissuing it.
>
>Margery
>"Do you have any files?"
>"We're the government, of course we have files."
>Millenium
>{*to reply take spambegone from my reply-to address*}


Margery's comment about problems jogged my memory.  I have the pattern,
bought it as soon as it came out, never used it.  There are massive
problems in fitting the collar.  It needs to be seriously fudged with while
a muslin .  I learned this from two professional historic costume makers,
one of whom actually makes - and successfully sells - patterns.

LynnD
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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Wed Oct  6 12:38:55 1999
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From: "Martha Kelly" <marthakelly@erols.com>
To: <h-costume@indra.com>
References: <199910061340.GAA03644@eclipse.pacifier.com>
Subject: Re: H-COST: New Rowenta
Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1999 13:26:01 -0400
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-Poster: "Martha Kelly" <marthakelly@erols.com>

Thank you, Kat. The coating on my new Rowenta soleplate was a sheet of
plastic to peel off - it would have been hard to miss.  When I checked the
instruction book (again), it recommended a hot-sole-plate cleaner.  I've
been trying that, but it still isn't as slick as glass. I also noticed that
my old beloved iron was a model "DE-87" and the new one is a "DE-871." Maybe
they've changed the sole plate formula? I'm tempted to send the old one in
for repairs - I snapped off the temperature control.
Anyway, thank you for the suggestions. A good iron makes the day brighter.


----- Original Message -----
From: <kat@grendal.rain.com>
To: <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Wednesday, October 06, 1999 2:45 AM
Subject: Re: H-COST: New Rowenta


>
> -Poster: kat@grendal.rain.com
>
>
> > My new Rowenta, replacing the one I dropped, of course, looks just like
the
> > dearly departed.  It has a shiny steel soleplate.  But the old one
glided
> > and the new one is somehow sluggish/sticky.  It is clean and I haven't
> > scratched it - yet.
>
> When I got my new Rowenta a few years ago, it had a coating on the
> soleplate that had to be removed before use. I suspect that without
> removing it, it would be sticky. (As I recall, there were directions
> which told how to do it. I remember grousing as I was using it over
> and over on a paper towel. However, I don't remember if it was a hot
> or cold iron or if some substance aided the removal.) I suggest
> reading the box or instruction sheet.
>
>
> Kat
>
> Kat(June Russell)
> kat@grendal.rain.com
> Heu! Tintinnuntius meus Sonat!
>

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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Wed Oct  6 13:09:03 1999
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Subject: H-COST: Re-creations of historical fur garments
From: "Laura H. Firth Markley" <lauraf@ignatz.com>
To: h-costume@indra.com
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-Poster: "Laura H. Firth Markley" <lauraf@ignatz.com>


A year or more ago, I remember reading about a company in the U.S. that made
re-creations of fur garments based on historical patterns. Specifically, I'm
looking for a source for a child's mitten, muff or collar circa 1900 made
from sea otter fur. If necessary, I'm pretty sure I could supply the pelt.

Please reply to me personally as I am not a member to the Historic Costume
e-mail list.

Thanks very much for your help,

Laura
--
Laura H. Firth
Interpretive Exhibits Writer/Researcher
lauraf@ignatz.com


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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Wed Oct  6 13:24:40 1999
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From: "Cynthia Barnes" <Cynthia_Barnes@phoenix.com>
To: <h-costume-digest@indra.com>
Subject: H-COST: RE:Sari silk
Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1999 10:24:45 -0700
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-Poster: "Cynthia Barnes" <Cynthia_Barnes@phoenix.com>

>That's very strange.  I've never seen that cotton facing thing up here.
They must be different in the Southern US.  At the Indian stores in Toronto
you can find sari of all different weights of silk and other fibers.  It's
actually quite easy here to find nice heavy silk saris particularily the
wedding saris.

I rather doubt this has to do w/ the Southern US.

You probably dont take the sari you're interested to the desk and ask them
to apply the cotton thingy (it has a name, which escapes me), or to cut off
the extra meter to make the matching blouse.  Most sari shops include these
services in the cost of the garment just as Nordstroms includes the cost of
small alterations in mens pants. By taking the sari as yardage (would that
be "meter-age"?) you are saving them this trouble.  You could probably
wangle a discount knowing this.

>ask for Banarsi

OTOH, if you like 2-3" border weaves in "cloth of gold" or brass w/ nifty
CofG medallions all over, ask for the Bombay style saris. Great for
Victorian "a disposition" gowns in fancy dress themes.
--cin
Cynthia Barnes
408.570.1023
Cynthia_Barnes@phoenix.com
Phoenix Technologies
411 E. Plumeria Dr.
San Jose CA 95134
"I think animal testing is a terrible idea; they get all nervous and
give the wrong answers."


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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Wed Oct  6 13:24:50 1999
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From: "Cynthia Barnes" <Cynthia_Barnes@phoenix.com>
To: <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: H-COST: blending of Indian and English stuff at the V&A
Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1999 10:42:32 -0700
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-Poster: "Cynthia Barnes" <Cynthia_Barnes@phoenix.com>

Danielle said> Actually, that reminded me.  I have a copy of a picture
(cotton wall
hanging) from India (which I believe is in the V&A) which is late
16th/early 17th century.  It shows a blending of Indian and English stuff.
It shows two women and two men in (mostly) English style clothing made up
in Indian fabrics with the typical Indian patterns.  Admittedly, it is only
one reference but, it does show a definite crossover.

In Feb this year, there was (possibly still is) an exhibit in the V&A on
indian fabrics made up into European fashions. There were about 6 complete
garments, some misc wearable pieces, some household furnishings, too, tho'
nothing as early as 17th c.   They had roller printed indian cottons in
flower & vine designs (gen brown or blue on white ground) that were hand
painted. There were silks, there were spangles. Fun exhibit, no catalog!

--cin
Cynthia Barnes
408.570.1023
Cynthia_Barnes@phoenix.com
Phoenix Technologies
411 E. Plumeria Dr.
San Jose CA 95134
"I think animal testing is a terrible idea; they get all nervous and
give the wrong answers."


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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Wed Oct  6 13:44:30 1999
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Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1999 13:59:11 -0500 (CDT)
From: Robin Netherton <robin@shell.nightowl.net>
To: h-costume@indra.com
Subject: Re: H-COST: mystery portrait
In-Reply-To: <bed253ca.252ce1a7@aol.com>
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-Poster: Robin Netherton <robin@shell.nightowl.net>


On Wed, 6 Oct 1999 MzScahlett@aol.com wrote:

> In a message dated 10/6/1999 06:02:22 Pacific Daylight Time, 
> melanie@faucet.net writes:
> 
> << 'Portrait of an unknown Italian lady', by an unknown artist, c. 1570-80.
>  Her deep mulberry jerkin is heavily embroidered with gold thread and pearls
>  and lies open at the neck, revealing the striped silk beneath.  Present
>  whereabouts unknown. >>
> 
> Have you tried comparing the sitter to other portraits in the book where you 
> might find a suspected artist? Then you could search the art websites by 
> artist, or maybe you should just try searching them by year.

I would think that Ms. Arnold would have done some searching herself,
particularly since she had a source for her photograph, and presumably
something more to go on than we have.

One situation in which you get references like "Present whereabouts
unknown" and "unknown artist" is when someone puts an item from a private
estate up for auction, and it's sold to another collector. The picture may
never have been shown in public before, and although it's appraised, the
appraiser probably didn't do a full art-historical analysis on it to try
to identify the artist. 16th-century portraits by minor artists are really
pretty numerous (as a walk through almost any stately country home will
show). Once the item is auctioned and sold, it disappears from view. This
is one reason I flip through Sotheby's catalogs at used book stores. 
Often you'll find images that have never been published before, and will
never be published again.

--Robin

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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Wed Oct  6 14:00:31 1999
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From: "Genevieve de Courtanvaux" <gdc@airmail.net>
To: <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: H-COST: mystery portrait
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-Poster: "Genevieve de Courtanvaux" <gdc@airmail.net>

I haven't seen it anywhere in color but that doesn't mean that a color
reproduction doesn't exist. After all Janet Arnold had to get the color
information somewhere. I am afraid that I don't have time to look but is
there an index of the portraits in the book? If so that may give you more
information. If not you might try writing the publisher to see if they know
where Janet found a color copy of it. The only other thing you might be able
to do is see if indexes of portraits exist (I know they exist for
illuminations). These indexes tell where the art work in particular is
published. Good Luck!
Carol Ross
-----Original Message-----
From: Melanie Schuessler <melanie@faucet.net>
To: h-costume@indra.com <h-costume@indra.com>
Date: Wednesday, October 06, 1999 8:06 AM
Subject: H-COST: mystery portrait


>
>-Poster: Melanie Schuessler <melanie@faucet.net>
>
>Greetings to the List!
>
>I have a mystery and ask your aid.  On page 129 of _Queen Elizabeth's
>Wardrobe Unlock'd_, there is a portrait (figure 200) whose caption runs as
>follows:
>
>'Portrait of an unknown Italian lady', by an unknown artist, c. 1570-80.
>Her deep mulberry jerkin is heavily embroidered with gold thread and pearls
>and lies open at the neck, revealing the striped silk beneath.  Present
>whereabouts unknown.
>
>Notice the number of "unknowns" in this caption!  What I am looking for is
>a color reproduction of this portrait.  For those of you whose households
>are unblessed by this book, here is a little further description:  the
>portrait is from about waist up, and the lady has on a light (probably
>white) doublet with stripes (probably gold) with narrowish sleeves and a
>smallish ruff under an embroidered jerkin with fairly puffy shoulder rolls.
>The neck of the jerkin lies open to reveal the top few buttons of the
>doublet.  Around her neck is a strand of pearls caught up at the bottom of
>the jerkin opening and sporting a very large pendant with two square-cut
>stones and a hanging teardrop pearl.
>
>Sound familiar?
>Thanks for your help!
>Melanie

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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Wed Oct  6 15:04:54 1999
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Date: Wed, 06 Oct 1999 13:12:34 -0700
From: Susan Fatemi <susanf@netwiz.net>
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Subject: Re: H-COST: Sari Silk - obis
References: <199910011810.LAA04226@apollo.directcon.net> <4.1.19990924121313.00bd2870@pop.slip.net>
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-Poster: Susan Fatemi <susanf@netwiz.net>

Carolyn Kayta Barrows wrote:
> 
> -Poster: Carolyn Kayta Barrows <kayta@slip.net>
> 
> >For good heavy silk brocades, though, i think I'd be inclined to look
> >for Japanese kimono silk or obi.
> 
> Weight - yes.  Pattern - I don't think so.  I've never seen a patterned obi
> that looked like Elizabethan brocade, tho I've seen some drop-dead gorgeous
> obis.
> 
This isn't Elizabethan, but I have a pink (ugh)satin obi with
sections that look just like Ottoman brocades. I mean *just*
like. Carnations, tulips, etc. It looks like someone
"pieced" odd-shaped pieces of brocades together.
The whole pattern is actually woven not pieced.

Susan
-- 
Oh Noh! Kimonos!
susanf@netwiz.net
http://www.netwiz.net/~susanf
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Subject: H-COST: Pattern Instruction sheets
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-Poster: Margo Anderson <margo@directcon.net>

I have a question about patterns:  Do people really like those fold out
instructions sheets that come with most patterns?

The instruction sheets are good in that one can see a number of steps at
once, but I always seem to misplace them, especially with a complex pattern
with multiple sheets.  

Would some other format, such as an 8 1/2" x 11" booklet, be preferable?  

Margo

"One Tough Costumer"
http://www.directcon.net/wander/main.htm

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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Wed Oct  6 15:30:28 1999
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From: Margo Anderson <margo@directcon.net>
Subject: H-COST: Naming My Business
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-Poster: Margo Anderson <margo@directcon.net>

Thanks to everybody who's sent in ideas, so far.  I realized I didn't put a
deadline on the contest...but I don't think one is really needed, I'll just
keep reading ideas till I find the name I'm looking for.

I also forgot to ask opinions on the possible names I'm already considering.
Here goes:

Regalia
Regalia Costume Patterns

Masterpiece Patterns  (is it just me, or does this sound too intimidating?)

Wardrobes of The Past
Wardrobes of History  (My husband says these two sound as if I'm a cabinetmaker)

And my husband's contribution:  Complexity Patterns   (To which I replied,
"Right, by Shoot Yourself In the Foot Enterprises".  

BTW, If I end up using a name that wasn't a contribution to the contest, I
will do a random drawing from all the people who have contributed.

Thanks, 

Margo

"One Tough Costumer"
http://www.directcon.net/wander/main.htm

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Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1999 13:46:31 -0700
To: h-costume@indra.com
From: Lynn Downward <ldownward@chori.org>
Subject: Re: H-COST: Pattern Instruction sheets
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-Poster: Lynn Downward <ldownward@chori.org>

>-Poster: Margo Anderson <margo@directcon.net>
>
>I have a question about patterns:  Do people really like those fold out
>instructions sheets that come with most patterns?
>
>The instruction sheets are good in that one can see a number of steps at
>once, but I always seem to misplace them, especially with a complex pattern
>with multiple sheets.
>
>Would some other format, such as an 8 1/2" x 11" booklet, be preferable?
>
>Margo
>
>"One Tough Costumer"
>http://www.directcon.net/wander/main.htm
>
I, for one, don't really care what format the instructions are in.  My
concerns are that they are complete and understandable.  A pet peeve is
that assumptions are sometimes made that someone knows what a sewing term
means, and does not bother to explain the term.  That becomes a problem
when my sister, for example, tries to sew because she sews very seldom and
can't remember one term from another. Then she calls me and I have to
explain terms long distance.  I'm going to buy her a basic sewing book for
Christmas.

Two cents worth,

LynnD
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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Wed Oct  6 15:41:09 1999
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Date: Wed, 06 Oct 1999 13:55:15 -0700
From: Merouda the True of Beaumaris <keltia@serv.net>
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-Poster: Merouda the True of Beaumaris <keltia@serv.net>

> I have a question about patterns:  Do people really like those fold out
> instructions sheets that come with most patterns?

I think they're fine.

> The instruction sheets are good in that one can see a number of steps at
> once, but I always seem to misplace them, especially with a complex pattern
> with multiple sheets.

But this isn't the fault of the instruction sheets now is it?  *GGGGGGGGG*
(meant with loving kindness :)  )

> Would some other format, such as an 8 1/2" x 11" booklet, be preferable?

As some one else said, it doesn't matter to me as long as they make sense.

If you need anyone one to try them out just let me know!  I'm willing.
Cynthia
--
Cynthia Long
Merouda the True of Beaumaris
Barony of Madrone
Kingdom of An Tir


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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Wed Oct  6 15:47:46 1999
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-Poster: lilinah@grin.net

Margo Anderson <margo@directcon.net> wrote:
>I also forgot to ask opinions on the possible names I'm already considering.
>Here goes:
>
>Regalia
>Regalia Costume Patterns

This sounds good.

>Masterpiece Patterns  (is it just me, or does this sound too intimidating?)

I don't like this

>Wardrobes of The Past

I don't like this

>Wardrobes of History  (My husband says these two sound as if I'm a
>cabinetmaker)

I think this sounds good.

>And my husband's contribution:  Complexity Patterns   (To which I replied,
>"Right, by Shoot Yourself In the Foot Enterprises".

No comment :-)

You might want to make sure someone else hasn't already registered it, but
i think i like Regalia (Costume Patterns) best.

Best wishes,
Lilinah


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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Wed Oct  6 15:54:25 1999
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Date: Wed, 06 Oct 1999 16:07:24 -0500
From: Kat & Kent <kdyer@home.com>
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-Poster: Kat & Kent <kdyer@home.com>

Margo Anderson wrote:
> 
> I have a question about patterns:  Do people really like those fold
> out instructions sheets that come with most patterns?

I use them folded out & folded every which way! <grin>

> The instruction sheets are good in that one can see a number of steps
> at once, but I always seem to misplace them, especially with a complex
> pattern with multiple sheets.

This happens to me no matter *what* the instructions are formatted like!
OTOH I live with two kids, five cats & a dh!!
 
> Would some other format, such as an 8 1/2" x 11" booklet, be
> preferable?

We-ell... since you're asking... I think that an 8-1/2 x 11" format
would be killer... then I could load them all in plastic paper
protectors & put them in a notebook!

Kat
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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Wed Oct  6 16:03:59 1999
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Date: Wed, 06 Oct 1999 17:20:27 -0400
To: h-costume@indra.com
From: "Marsha J. Hamilton" <mhamilto@pop.service.ohio-state.edu>
Subject: Re: H-COST: Patterns - Household Hints
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-Poster: "Marsha J. Hamilton" <mhamilto@pop.service.ohio-state.edu>

>>I have a question about patterns:  Do people really like those fold out
>>instructions sheets that come with most patterns? ...I always seem to 
>>misplace them, especially with a complex pattern with multiple sheets.

After I cut out pattern pieces, I can never get all of them and the
instructions back in the envelope.  To keep from losing pieces, I
bought a box of large (about 8x10 inches) plastic "zip-lock" 
storage bags.  They are cheap, I put the envelope in the front so
I know what's in the bag, and I can fit all the instructions, my 
notes, pieces, and any brown paper extensions, etc. that I created
if I altered the pattern.  No muss, no fuss, no loss.

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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Wed Oct  6 16:08:26 1999
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Date: Wed, 06 Oct 1999 17:26:48 -0500
From: Hope Greenberg <hope.greenberg@uvm.edu>
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-Poster: Hope Greenberg <hope.greenberg@uvm.edu>

I've been looking for another example of the strange "linen band wrap"
hat that is worn by the Magdalen in Rogier van der Weyden's painting. I
finally found it. It's another painting by Rogier, this time worn by an
attendant of Mary's. You can see it at:
http://www.uvm.edu/~hag/sca/15th
So we have two hats of this type. What does that prove? Absolutely
nothing! Well, it proves that Rogier used this type of hat in two
paintings, but it prooves nothing about whether this was a figment of
his imagination, a weird one-only hat worn by someone he once saw, or
something else. I don't know, but thought you might like to see it.

- Hope
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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Wed Oct  6 16:10:11 1999
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-Poster: Merouda the True of Beaumaris <keltia@serv.net>

> After I cut out pattern pieces, I can never get all of them and the
> instructions back in the envelope.  To keep from losing pieces, I
> bought a box of large (about 8x10 inches) plastic "zip-lock"
> storage bags.

That's what I do too.  The bags are a god send to costumers.  And everyone
else.  I never use them for food.  *GGGG*

Cynthia
--
Cynthia Long
Merouda the True of Beaumaris
Barony of Madrone
Kingdom of An Tir


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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Wed Oct  6 16:14:17 1999
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-Poster: cynthia j ley <cley@juno.com>

How about: Here's My Ad Dress.



				Arlys


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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Wed Oct  6 16:28:43 1999
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-Poster: Schmitt100@aol.com

In a message dated 10/06/1999 4:24:53 PM Central Daylight Time, 
owner-h-costume-digest@indra.com writes:

> The instruction sheets are good in that one can see a number of steps at
>  once, but I always seem to misplace them, especially with a complex pattern
>  with multiple sheets.  
>  
>  Would some other format, such as an 8 1/2" x 11" booklet, be preferable?  
>  
As long as you have the steps in order - I remember when using Alter Years' 
bodice and corset patterns that I had to keep flipping back and forth in 
their booklet and kept losing track of what I was doing.

**********************
Rebecca Schmitt
So many books, so little time

Patience is not passive; on the contrary, it is active; it is concentrated 
strength. 
        - Edward G. Bulwer-Lytton

schmitt100@aol.com
**********************
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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Wed Oct  6 16:40:14 1999
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To: h-costume-digest@indra.com
From: pulliam@acadia.net (Deborah Pulliam)
Subject: H-COST: velvet, plush. etc.
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-Poster: pulliam@acadia.net (Deborah Pulliam)

<<According to her, plush is a fabric woven double, with two warps, one top
and one bottom warp. The pile is formed by extra threads which go up and
down between the two warp layers. The layers are cut apart by cutting the
connecting pile threads, so that two lengths of fabric come off the loom at
once.>>

This is a description of weaving velvet: historically, plush is simply
velvet woven with wool instead of silk.




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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Wed Oct  6 16:53:01 1999
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Subject: Re: H-COST: Naming My Business
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-Poster: Fopdejour1@aol.com

In a message dated 10/6/99 9:00:46 PM !!!First Boot!!!, lilinah@grin.net 
writes:

<< You might want to make sure someone else hasn't already registered it, but
 i think i like Regalia (Costume Patterns) best.
 
 Best wishes,
 Lilinah >>

For what it's worth, I like this one too.

Charles
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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Wed Oct  6 16:55:08 1999
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From: pulliam@acadia.net (Deborah Pulliam)
Subject: H-COST: mystery portrait
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-Poster: pulliam@acadia.net (Deborah Pulliam)

<< If not you might try writing the publisher to see if they know where
Janet found a color copy of it. >>

It's much more likely that Janet found the portrait at some point in her
travels, in a private collection. She "collected" paintings and portraits
for well over 25 years, and had amassed a collection of over 100,000 images
(in slides) when she died, most of which she took herself.

As someone has mentioned, paintings and portraits are sold, often from
collector to collector, and disappear from view. I think it's highly likely
Janet saw and photographed the portrait years before she published her
book, and by the time the book was ready for print, the portrait had been
sold, and she was unaware of the new owner, which is why it's credited the
way it is.

There's no reason to assume it's ever been published anywhere else.


Deborah


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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Wed Oct  6 16:57:06 1999
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Date: Wed, 06 Oct 1999 15:11:35 -0700
From: Merouda the True of Beaumaris <keltia@serv.net>
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-Poster: Merouda the True of Beaumaris <keltia@serv.net>

> http://www.uvm.edu/~hag/sca/15th
> So we have two hats of this type. What does that prove? Absolutely
> nothing!

*laugh*  I agree.  Since both ladies are in the religious categories, I
would still hesitate to use them for a regular ol' person.  I *would* use
it for a masque or something like that.  :)

> Well, it proves that Rogier used this type of hat in two
> paintings, but it prooves nothing about whether this was a figment of
> his imagination, a weird one-only hat worn by someone he once saw, or
> something else. I don't know, but thought you might like to see it.

Thanks!  Great site.  I've seen it before, but missed this somehow.  I've
heard many folks say that Rogier has a screw loose or a creative mind
(whichever suits) when it comes to hats.  *GGG*

Cynthia
--
Cynthia Long
Merouda the True of Beaumaris
Barony of Madrone
Kingdom of An Tir


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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Wed Oct  6 16:59:28 1999
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Date: Wed, 06 Oct 1999 15:14:47 -0700
Subject: H-COST: Pacific NW Costume & Textiles 
From: "R.L. Shep" <rlshep@home.com>
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-Poster: "R.L. Shep" <rlshep@home.com>

> THIS MESSAGE IS IN MIME FORMAT. Since your mail reader does not understand
this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.

--MS_Mac_OE_3022067687_45269_MIME_Part
Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit

Following is an updatedVictoria Rivers -- will be visiting Seattle on
October 21-22 to speak at a Thursday evening opening at Material Possessions
and to give a "collections seminar" at the Henry Gallery the following noon,
October 22nd.  Victoria is a professor of textile history and studio fiber
arts at UC, Davis.  Her visit will coincide with the Thames & Hudson
publication of her new book, *The Shining Cloth*.  She will be using pieces
from the  Henry's collection to illustrate points from the book in her talk.
  
Contact Judy Sourakli at the Henry Gallery (543-2281) or me (441-4459) for
further details.

*Songet - Gilt Cloth of Indonesia*.  19th & 20th century gold and silver
embellished textiles worn on ceremonial occasions in Sumatra and Malaysia.  
 Material Possessions gallery. 1932 First Ave #610. Seattle, WA 98101. 
Contact Linda Beeman  206-41-4459. through 31 December.

*Woven Symbols: Chinese Garments and Textiles*.  Seattle Asian Art Museum. 
Volunteer Park. Seattle, WA.  through 2 April.

*Talking Fingers: Contemporary Weavings from the Northern Northwest Coast*. 
Seattle Art Museum.  Seattle, WA  through 23 April.

*Textiles and Temples in Northeast India*.  Presentation by Robb Shep at the
Seattle Textile & Rug Society on Oct 14th.  206-325-8907. email 
stars.1@usa.net

*Broken Threads - From Aryanization to Cultural Loss: The Destruction of the
Jewish Fashion Industry in Germany and Austria*.  includes 40 costumes. 
Vancouver Holocaust Ed. Centre. 50-950 W. 41 St. Vancouver, BC V5Z 2N7. 
804-264-0499.  through 15 March.

*Woman of Fashion: Guendolen Plestcheeff Collection.  Museum of History and
Industry. Seattle.  through 14 Oct.

*Textile Tapestries*  by Nulie Oigaard noted stage designer and painter. 
Nordic Heritage Museum.  Seattle. WA  through 14 November.

*Age of Victoria* painting and sculpture from the Royal Academy of Art -
London.  Includies many portraits showing costume. Frye Art Museum. Seattle.
 through  2 January.

*Asian Pacific American Veterans* serving in different wars. Uniforms, etc. 
Also ethnic clothing of Asians who came to the NW. Wing Luke Museum.
Internaional District. Seattle.  through 9 April

*RAGS 2000* Wearable Art Show & Sale Benefiting the YWCA of Tacoma.
Larson Mercedes Benz in Fife just off I-5.  9 - 12 March.

*Beads and Fabric* 10 Seattle Area Artists. North Seattle CC Art Gallery. 12
Oct to 5 Nov. list of costume and textile exhibits, etc. in the Pacific
North West.


~!~ R.L.Shep
http://www.rlshep.com

--MS_Mac_OE_3022067687_45269_MIME_Part
Content-type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1"
Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable

<HTML>
<HEAD>
<TITLE>Pacific NW Costume & Textiles </TITLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY BGCOLOR=3D"#FFFFFF">
<FONT SIZE=3D"4"><TT>Following is an updated</FONT>Victoria Rivers -- will be=
 visiting Seattle on October 21-22 to speak at a Thursday evening opening at=
 Material Possessions and to give a &quot;collections seminar&quot; at the H=
enry Gallery the following noon, October 22nd.  Victoria is a professor of t=
extile history and studio fiber arts at UC, Davis.  Her visit will coincide =
with the Thames &amp; Hudson publication of her new book, *The Shining Cloth=
*.  She will be using pieces from the  Henry's collection to illustrate poin=
ts from the book in her talk.   <BR>
Contact Judy Sourakli at the Henry Gallery (543-2281) or me (441-4459) for =
further details.<BR>
<BR>
*Songet - Gilt Cloth of Indonesia*.  19th &amp; 20th century gold and silve=
r embellished textiles worn on ceremonial occasions in Sumatra and Malaysia.=
    Material Possessions gallery. 1932 First Ave #610. Seattle, WA 98101.  C=
ontact Linda Beeman  206-41-4459. through 31 December.<BR>
<BR>
*Woven Symbols: Chinese Garments and Textiles*.  Seattle Asian Art Museum. =
 Volunteer Park. Seattle, WA.  through 2 April.<BR>
<BR>
*Talking Fingers: Contemporary Weavings from the Northern Northwest Coast*.=
  Seattle Art Museum.  Seattle, WA  through 23 April.<BR>
<BR>
*Textiles and Temples in Northeast India*.  Presentation by Robb Shep at th=
e Seattle Textile &amp; Rug Society on Oct 14th.  206-325-8907. email  stars=
.1@usa.net<BR>
<BR>
*Broken Threads - From Aryanization to Cultural Loss: The Destruction of th=
e Jewish Fashion Industry in Germany and Austria*.  includes 40 costumes.  V=
ancouver Holocaust Ed. Centre. 50-950 W. 41 St. Vancouver, BC V5Z 2N7.  804-=
264-0499.  through 15 March.<BR>
<BR>
*Woman of Fashion: Guendolen Plestcheeff Collection.  Museum of History and=
 Industry. Seattle.  through 14 Oct.<BR>
<BR>
*Textile Tapestries*  by Nulie Oigaard noted stage designer and painter.  N=
ordic Heritage Museum.  Seattle. WA  through 14 November.<BR>
<BR>
*Age of Victoria* painting and sculpture from the Royal Academy of Art - Lo=
ndon.  Includies many portraits showing costume. Frye Art Museum. Seattle.  =
through  2 January.<BR>
<BR>
*Asian Pacific American Veterans* serving in different wars. Uniforms, etc.=
  Also ethnic clothing of Asians who came to the NW. Wing Luke Museum. Inter=
naional District. Seattle.  through 9 April<BR>
<BR>
*RAGS 2000* Wearable Art Show &amp; Sale Benefiting the YWCA of Tacoma.<BR>
Larson Mercedes Benz in Fife just off I-5.  9 - 12 March.<BR>
<BR>
*Beads and Fabric* 10 Seattle Area Artists. North Seattle CC Art Gallery. 1=
2 Oct to 5 Nov.<FONT SIZE=3D"4"> list of costume and textile exhibits, etc. in=
 the Pacific North West.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
~!~ R.L.Shep<BR>
http://www.rlshep.com<BR>
</TT></FONT>
</BODY>
</HTML>

--MS_Mac_OE_3022067687_45269_MIME_Part--

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Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1999 18:27:24 -0400
From: Margaret Bolger <Margaret_Bolger@compuserve.com>
Subject: H-COST: Vintage Textiles Sale
To: all <h-costume@indra.com>
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-Poster: Margaret Bolger <Margaret_Bolger@compuserve.com>

Just received this message, which I thought might be of interest to you. 
If you have any queries please contact them direct as I am about to go
off-list until my return from holiday on 20th October!

Margaret
antique costume & textiles
http://www.artizania.co.uk
****************************

>>Vintage Textiles will be in Santa Monica for a private trunk show
clearance sale
of our antique and vintage fabrics.  We will offer sumptuous velvet
drapery
in a rainbow of old world colors, French and English homespuns, East
Indian
silk and silver wedding sarees, European brocade and damask drapery,
circa 1930's.
We will also be showing a small collection of rare 19th century lace
handkerchiefs and
trim.

During the following dates and times, Vintage Textiles will be available
for appointments
in Santa Monica, California:


Friday, October 8             -   1:00pm to 7:00pm
Saturday, October 9          -   9:00am to 7:00pm
Sunday, October 10          -    not available
Monday, October 11         -   9:00am to 7:00pm
Tuesday, October 12         -   7:00pm to 9:00pm
Wednesday, October 13     -  9:00am to 5:00pm


Please let us know of your interest by calling Gailen Moore at our
Soquel home office
at (831) 476-9007.  We will be checking our messages several times
everyday.

Please note:  We will not be checking our email during the sale dates,
so please call
if you need to reach us.

Best regards,

Gailen Moore
www.vintagetextiles.com

<<
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From: "Karie Mitchell" <allessandre@hotmail.com>
To: h-costume@indra.com
Subject: Re: H-COST: Pattern Instruction sheets
Date: Wed, 06 Oct 1999 15:28:49 PDT
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-Poster: "Karie Mitchell" <allessandre@hotmail.com>

>I have a question about patterns:  Do people really like those fold >out 
>instructions sheets that come with most patterns?

Not usually.

>Would some other format, such as an 8 1/2" x 11" booklet, be >preferable?

Very much so.  Especially with 3 ring binder holes so we can protect a cheap 
paperback copy!  :)

Allessandre (the Frugal)

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Date: Wed, 06 Oct 1999 17:43:42 -0500
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-Poster: The Mulders <mulder@mail.brightok.net>

What about....
Margo's Historic Patterns



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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Wed Oct  6 17:26:42 1999
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Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1999 18:38:14 EDT
Subject: Re: H-COST: Houppelande
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-Poster: Appin1@aol.com

Henk: Is it possible that the garment is a pelicon rather than a houppelande?

Kathleen Norvell
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Date: Wed, 06 Oct 1999 18:53:37 -0500
From: The Mulders <mulder@mail.brightok.net>
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-Poster: The Mulders <mulder@mail.brightok.net>


--------------E21C4C2E3A5829925A969FA6
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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How about.....
Measures of Time
Historic Patterns and Accessories


--------------E21C4C2E3A5829925A969FA6
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<HTML>
&nbsp;

<P>How about.....
<BR><FONT SIZE=+2>Measures of Time</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=-1>Historic Patterns and Accessories</FONT>
<BR>&nbsp;</HTML>

--------------E21C4C2E3A5829925A969FA6--

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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Wed Oct  6 18:41:53 1999
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 <37FBD09D.63C10987@mail.brightok.net>
Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1999 16:53:44 -0700
To: h-costume@indra.com
From: Lynn Downward <ldownward@chori.org>
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-Poster: Lynn Downward <ldownward@chori.org>

--============_-1272868440==_ma============
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"


> The Mulders suggested:
>
>How about..... Measures of Time
>Historic Patterns and Accessories
> 

OOOH.  I like that one.  I always wanted to make up cards for a historic
costume company named "Leap of Faith", because isn't it?  but the only
people who would have understood were the people who didn't need my help.

LynnD
--============_-1272868440==_ma============
Content-Type: text/enriched; charset="us-ascii"



<excerpt> The Mulders suggested:


How about..... <bigger><bigger>Measures of Time

</bigger></bigger>Historic Patterns and Accessories

 

</excerpt>

OOOH.  I like that one.  I always wanted to make up cards for a
historic costume company named "Leap of Faith", because isn't it?  but
the only people who would have understood were the people who didn't
need my help.


LynnD

--============_-1272868440==_ma============--
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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Wed Oct  6 19:06:50 1999
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From: "ÃÖº¸À±" <kang0823@hanmail.net>
To: h-costume@indra.com
Subject: H-COST: I recommand a good internet site.
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Date: Thu, 07 Oct 1999 09:04:29 KST
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-Poster: "ÃÖº¸À±" <kang0823@hanmail.net>

I recommand a good internet site.
http://www.firstview.com
In this site, you can see collections of many designers.
Please.... go there and enjoy many good works!!! 

==================================================
NO. 1 ¿ì¸® ÀÎÅͳÝ, ´ÙÀ½
ò»ý ¾²´Â ¹«·á E-mail ÁÖ¼Ò ÇѸÞÀϳÝ
http://www.daum.net
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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Wed Oct  6 19:31:14 1999
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Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1999 20:43:26 -0400
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Subject: Re: H-COST: recycling/questions-sewing machines
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-Poster: sustre@pixelations.com

Re: sewing machines

I have a Bernina and love it- it's hardly given me any trouble over almost
20 years.

BUT- when I was having some problems, the licensed service people were the
absolutely worst I have ever encountered. The held my machine twice for 4
months each time, didn't do the adjustments that they said would take "a
couple of weeks", and I only got it back finally after my husband went down
there and kinda threatened them- with legal action, not violence!

When I complained to Bernina they wrote back and said I was lying and that
the service people were wonderful.

The BBB and the DA eventually closed the service people down.

So check out the service before buying a Bernina!

-Amanda
who has her eye on a Viking <drool>- nice machine and lots of licensed
service people!


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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Wed Oct  6 19:39:58 1999
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Date: Wed, 06 Oct 1999 20:00:06 -0500
From: The Mulders <mulder@mail.brightok.net>
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-Poster: The Mulders <mulder@mail.brightok.net>

When I had my bernina serviced in OKC I had to write a check.  They didn't even
ask for ID!!!!!  She said in the 21 years of service they never had a bad check
from a bernina owner!!!!  How about that!! :)

sustre@pixelations.com wrote:

> -Poster: sustre@pixelations.com
>
> Re: sewing machines
>
> I have a Bernina and love it- it's hardly given me any trouble over almost
> 20 years.
>
> BUT- when I was having some problems, the licensed service people were the
> absolutely worst I have ever encountered. The held my machine twice for 4
> months each time, didn't do the adjustments that they said would take "a
> couple of weeks", and I only got it back finally after my husband went down
> there and kinda threatened them- with legal action, not violence!
>
> When I complained to Bernina they wrote back and said I was lying and that
> the service people were wonderful.
>
> The BBB and the DA eventually closed the service people down.
>
> So check out the service before buying a Bernina!
>
> -Amanda
> who has her eye on a Viking <drool>- nice machine and lots of licensed
> service people!
>



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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Wed Oct  6 19:41:43 1999
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From: Margo Anderson <margo@directcon.net>
Subject: Re: H-COST: recycling/questions-sewing machines
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-Poster: Margo Anderson <margo@directcon.net>


>
>The BBB and the DA eventually closed the service people down.
>
>So check out the service before buying a Bernina!
>
This is true no matter what machine you're looking at.  Check out the
service department, ask questions of other people who use them if possible.  

Of course, if you move...I have two Vikings and the only person in town who
works on them is a banshee.  

Margo

"One Tough Costumer"
http://www.directcon.net/wander/main.htm

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From: "Megan McHugh" <mmchugh@starpower.net>
To: <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: H-COST: Pattern Instruction sheets
Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1999 22:00:36 -0400
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-Poster: "Megan McHugh" <mmchugh@starpower.net>

I just like it to fit back into the pattern envelope.  I rather like some of
the folkwear and other small company patterns that are in large plastic
ziploc bags  - they seem to go back in better.  Also, no cheap smudged
copies - clear print only please.  Particularly if I'm paying a premium
price, I would like a clean copy.  BTW, what pattern(s) will you start with
and when can I buy some?
-----Original Message-----
From: Lynn Downward <ldownward@chori.org>
To: h-costume@indra.com <h-costume@indra.com>
Date: Wednesday, October 06, 1999 4:57 PM
Subject: Re: H-COST: Pattern Instruction sheets


>
>-Poster: Lynn Downward <ldownward@chori.org>
>
>>-Poster: Margo Anderson <margo@directcon.net>
>>
>>I have a question about patterns:  Do people really like those fold out
>>instructions sheets that come with most patterns?
>>
>>The instruction sheets are good in that one can see a number of steps at
>>once, but I always seem to misplace them, especially with a complex
pattern
>>with multiple sheets.
>>
>>Would some other format, such as an 8 1/2" x 11" booklet, be preferable?
>>
>>Margo
>>
>>"One Tough Costumer"
>>http://www.directcon.net/wander/main.htm
>>
>I, for one, don't really care what format the instructions are in.  My
>concerns are that they are complete and understandable.  A pet peeve is
>that assumptions are sometimes made that someone knows what a sewing term
>means, and does not bother to explain the term.  That becomes a problem
>when my sister, for example, tries to sew because she sews very seldom and
>can't remember one term from another. Then she calls me and I have to
>explain terms long distance.  I'm going to buy her a basic sewing book for
>Christmas.
>
>Two cents worth,
>
>LynnD
>

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From: "Megan McHugh" <mmchugh@starpower.net>
To: <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: H-COST: Naming My Business
Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1999 22:05:43 -0400
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-Poster: "Megan McHugh" <mmchugh@starpower.net>

How about "Costumes by Margo", or "Fantastic Frocks"?
"Historically Yours, by Margo" or just "Historically Yours"

-----Original Message-----
From: Margo Anderson <margo@directcon.net>
To: h-costume@indra.com <h-costume@indra.com>
Date: Wednesday, October 06, 1999 8:14 PM
Subject: H-COST: Naming My Business


>
>-Poster: Margo Anderson <margo@directcon.net>
>
>Thanks to everybody who's sent in ideas, so far.  I realized I didn't put a
>deadline on the contest...but I don't think one is really needed, I'll just
>keep reading ideas till I find the name I'm looking for.
>
>I also forgot to ask opinions on the possible names I'm already
considering.
>Here goes:
>
>Regalia
>Regalia Costume Patterns
>
>Masterpiece Patterns  (is it just me, or does this sound too intimidating?)
>
>Wardrobes of The Past
>Wardrobes of History  (My husband says these two sound as if I'm a
cabinetmaker)
>
>And my husband's contribution:  Complexity Patterns   (To which I replied,
>"Right, by Shoot Yourself In the Foot Enterprises".
>
>BTW, If I end up using a name that wasn't a contribution to the contest, I
>will do a random drawing from all the people who have contributed.
>
>Thanks,
>
>Margo
>
>"One Tough Costumer"
>http://www.directcon.net/wander/main.htm
>
>

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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Wed Oct  6 20:55:38 1999
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-Poster: Jennie Chancey <jchancey@rica.net>

I prefer the booklet myself, since the fold-out sheets tend to be
unwieldy.

Just my two cents!

Jennie
--
Sense and Sensibility
http://www.sensibility.com
winsome clothing with an old-fashioned appeal


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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Wed Oct  6 20:57:17 1999
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-Poster: Jennie Chancey <jchancey@rica.net>

Margo wrote: And my husband's contribution:  Complexity Patterns   (To
which I replied,
"Right, by Shoot Yourself In the Foot Enterprises".

LOL!  That gave me a good chuckle.  I still have my thinking cap
on.....  There is so much in a name!

Jennie
--
Sense and Sensibility
http://www.sensibility.com
winsome clothing with an old-fashioned appeal


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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Wed Oct  6 21:00:49 1999
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From: "Franchesca Havas" <ches@io.com>
To: <h-costume@indra.com>
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Subject: Re: H-COST: Accessing the H-Costume archives
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-Poster: "Franchesca Havas" <ches@io.com>

Sorry, I meant to give out the url itself:
http://www.io.com/~ches/h-costume/index.html

But I only have 1993-1996, the other one should have the most up to date
ones on it.

http://sca.uwaterloo.ca/~fashion/ (note new location!!)

Sincerely,
F. Havas
Dallas, Texas
motto: Numquam scribae ridente fide

----- Original Message -----
From: Franchesca Havas <ches@io.com>
To: <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Wednesday, October 06, 1999 5:07 AM
Subject: Re: H-COST: Accessing the H-Costume archives


:
: -Poster: "Franchesca Havas" <ches@io.com>
:
: And if that link does not work you can still access them at my ftp site
: zipped up.
:
: ftp://ftp.io.com/pub/usr/ches
:
: Sincerely,
: F. Havas
: Dallas, Texas
: motto: Numquam scribae ridente fide
:
: ----- Original Message -----
: From: HICKS, MELISSA <HICKS_M@casa.gov.au>
: To: <h-costume-digest@indra.com>
: Sent: Wednesday, October 06, 1999 12:24 AM
: Subject: H-COST: Accessing the H-Costume archives
:
:
: :
: : -Poster: "HICKS, MELISSA" <HICKS_M@casa.gov.au>
: :
: : Janice,
: :
: : Thanks for this but the link doesn't bring up any information for me and
: the
: : "Parent Directory" doesn't seem to go anywhere.  Can anyone please
advise?
: : In private if necessary if I'm just being incredibly dense.
: :
: : > According to the info I got in March, the Archives-of-a-sort may be
: : > found at
: : > http://www.reference.com
: : >
: : Thanks
: : Mel.
: :
: :
: :  _________________________________________________________________
: :  To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com
: :  with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME
: :
:
:  _________________________________________________________________
:  To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com
:  with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME
:

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From: Svanhildr Valdimarsdottir <kittykat@primenet.com>
Subject: Re: H-COST: Naming My Business
In-Reply-To: <37FBE101.CEA5A9A8@mail.brightok.net>
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-Poster: Svanhildr Valdimarsdottir <kittykat@primenet.com>

Ooooo, this is my favorite so far!  (like I count?!  ROFLOL)

Svanny

At 04:53 PM 10/06/1999 , you wrote: 
>
>   
>
> How about..... 
> Measures of Time 
> Historic Patterns and Accessories 



Svanhildr  Valdimarsdottir     )O(
   Barony of Gyldenholt, Kingdom of Caid
  kittykat@primenet.com
  ICQ: 12691776 (NyteRaevyn)
  AIM: SvanhildrV 
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From: "Susan Carroll-Clark" <nicolaa@columbus.rr.com>
To: <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: H-COST: Naming My Business
Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1999 22:31:36 -0400
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-Poster: "Susan Carroll-Clark" <nicolaa@columbus.rr.com>

Greetings!

I still haven't come up with anything I like better than "One Tough
Costumer."
The best I've thought of so far is "The Cabbage Rose,"--cabbage, of course,
being fabric scraps, one of the historical perqs of being a tailor.  But
that's a bit oblique. "Present Past (or Past Present)" was another idea,
although it sounds a bit like a grammatical tense.

Heck, *I* like Panache. I think it's a lot better known word than "Seraglio"
(which still trips up my tongue).

Susan

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-Poster: "Carol J. Bell Cannon" <cjcannon@greymists.com>

At 01:37 PM 10/06/1999 -0700, you wrote:
>
>-Poster: Margo Anderson <margo@directcon.net>
>I also forgot to ask opinions on the possible names I'm already considering.
>Here goes:
>Regalia
>Regalia Costume Patterns
         Regalia may win those who wish to appear Royal, but it doesn't
attract me at all, even though I love lovely attire.
>Masterpiece Patterns  (is it just me, or does this sound too intimidating?)
         The problem, for me, with the word Masterpiece is that it seems
overworked.  As in "Perfect Patterns" or that kind of thing.   I'd feel
like nit-picking it to death just for the name, and I try not to be
'snarky'.  Appearances aside.  These are just my own quibbles/foibles,
after all.
>Wardrobes of The Past
>Wardrobes of History  (My husband says these two sound as if I'm a
cabinetmaker)
          "Robe Yourself in History" might be a great come-on line for your
website!
>And my husband's contribution:  Complexity Patterns   (To which I replied,
>"Right, by Shoot Yourself In the Foot Enterprises".  
          You're right.  It's like my former hippy acquaintance who swore
he loved the sound of the word larceny and intended to name his daughter
that...ACK!!!  Better might be:
          "Patterns from the Past...Without the Pain!" :-)
>BTW, If I end up using a name that wasn't a contribution to the contest, I
>will do a random drawing from all the people who have contributed.
          I hope the right name appears and that you do wonderfully, Lady!
Best of fortune.-- Carol, still hoping to meet you one day... 
>Thanks, 
>
>Margo
>
>"One Tough Costumer"
>http://www.directcon.net/wander/main.htm
>
> 
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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Wed Oct  6 21:41:29 1999
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Date: Wed, 06 Oct 1999 19:53:11 -0700
To: h-costume@indra.com
From: "Carol J. Bell Cannon" <cjcannon@greymists.com>
Subject: Re: H-COST: Patterns - Household Hints
In-Reply-To: <37FBBE10.1FD94B60@serv.net>
References: <199910062030.NAA08294@apollo.directcon.net>
 <3.0.3.32.19991006172027.006afd8c@pop.service.ohio-state.edu>
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-Poster: "Carol J. Bell Cannon" <cjcannon@greymists.com>

At 02:24 PM 10/06/1999 -0700, you wrote: I bought a box of large (about
8x10 inches) plastic "zip-lock" storage bags.
     That's what I do too.  The bags are a god send to costumers.  And
everyone else.  I never use them for food.  *GGGG*  Cynthia
                And I store my shoes in them at events in places where
creepy-crawlies like to creep into such items and hide... .  I also use
them for keeping notes with patterns/&c. Carol / Gra/inne
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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Wed Oct  6 21:48:00 1999
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Message-ID: <0.79ed6622.252d66fa@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1999 23:01:14 EDT
Subject: H-COST: Margo's business name, packaging, seam allowance
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-Poster: JPMcTeer@aol.com

In response to Margo's questions about her business, I have some 
questions for her.  
#  Who is your target customer?
#  How do you propose to advertise to those customers?
     The background of your customer and advertising venues will help 
determine the name.  In the past, you listed various names you have 
used as a person - perhaps one of these would be a starting point to 
relate to a large group of people.  As we know, on this list we like 
abbreviations for various things, including MM for a line of patterns.  
Make sure the name is pronounceable or memorable if abbreviated - or 
plan ahead to use both a name and an acronym.

#  How do you plan to package the patterns?
     How much room will you have for a logo design that will help sell the 
pattern if it's in a rack display?  How much space will you devote to a 
drawing or photo of the costume?  How will it be shipped in single or 
multiple orders?  (The priority mail envelopes and boxes from the Post 
Office are very handy.)  I personally prefer the 8 1/2 by 11 format for 
shop bibles of sketches, swatches, and instructions.  Since I did not 
learn to sew on street clothes, I dislike those foldout instruction sheets.

     Another thing I personally dislike is having someone else determine 
the seam allowance for me and include it in the pattern, since I hardly 
ever start with a 5/8" seam allowance.  "Show me the stitching line!"  
and let me determine how much seam allowance to use.  I am 
accustomed to heavy paper patterns with no seam allowance and 
notches INTO the paper to use as match up marks.   Putting the notches 
on the edge of the seam allowance means that their accuracy is 
compromised when I try to bring them back to the stitch line before I cut 
my stiff paper copy without a seam allowance.  

As to the proposed names, <Regalia> might be limiting if you branch out 
into peasant costumes.  Perhaps it could be a subheading in your 
company to indicate a collection or line of court costumes.  (Think of 
Couture versus off-the-rack).

Thanks for listening.  I just bought a pattern on ebay that had "assumed" 
seam allowance onto actual historic patterns - very annoying!

Joan in Minneapolis
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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Wed Oct  6 21:50:13 1999
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From: "Beth" <bchamber@suffolk.lib.ny.us>
To: <h-costume@indra.com>
References: <199910062030.NAA08294@apollo.directcon.net>
Subject: Re: H-COST: Pattern Instruction sheets
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-Poster: "Beth" <bchamber@suffolk.lib.ny.us>

>
> The instruction sheets are good in that one can see a number of steps at
> once, but I always seem to misplace them, especially with a complex
pattern
> with multiple sheets.
>
> Would some other format, such as an 8 1/2" x 11" booklet, be preferable?
>
I hung a bulletin board next to my sewing machine and I tack up instructions
and the pattern envelopes as well as a scrap of the fabric in case I need to
test tension or something. When I remember, I put buttons, zippers, etc. in
the pattern envelope also - that way they are "there" when I need them. It
only took my 20 years of sewing to realize that I shouldn't be scrounging
around the room for various pieces every 20 minutes. I also attached a pair
of thread clippers to a very long piece of ribbon and tacked it to the
board. It has all really helped me salvage some of my sanity.

Beth

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From: "Arianne de Dragonnid  mka Grace Payne" <arianne@blackroot.org>
To: "h-costume@indra.com" <h-costume@indra.com>
Date: Wed, 06 Oct 99 22:57:57 
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-Poster: "Arianne de Dragonnid  mka Grace Payne" <arianne@blackroot.org>

On reading my backlog, I come across this post:

-Poster: Elizabeth Cummins <henninlady@juno.com>
>
>>I use a plain four-piece construction with gores. I've actually
>>found a picture or two that show those seam lines, too -- front, back,
>and
>>two sides, nothing else. There's a bit of a trick to cutting the neck
>and
>>the armholes so you have flexibility in certain directions, and the
>result
>>is that the dress raises the breasts high up.  You also get incredible
>>elastic-like tension on the neckline that holds it right against the
>body,
>>no gapping or "falling out."
>
>I'd be interested in seeing a well made 4-piece cotehardie gown. Does
<the rest is snipped>

I'd be interested in seeing your documentation, my lady.  I've seen some OK stuff, but I'm mostly running on 
feelings down here, and am surrounded by people who seem to think that the cotehardie was a tight version 
of the "Greenland Gown" (I like that name, as it strongly insinuates that it was worn in Greenland, as opposed 
to, say, France), unless perhaps they wear it because it's easier to fit their more substantial curves into.  I've 
worked out a pattern that fits me perfectly and gives just the right silhouette, and the lady Elizabeth quoted is 
right, it is possible and quite easy actually to work out.  You just have to give up your attachment to straight 
lines:  the only straight lines in my pattern are in the skirt.  It also helps to come from working on 12th and 13th 
century garb -- they had a lot in common, when you get down to the basic thought processes involved in 
layout and design.


Yours in the Dream,
	Arianne de Dragonnid

Shire of Castlemere, Kingdom of Trimaris

%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%

"The founder of my noble line was wont to see Dragons.  His Lady rode out from the forest 
in a gown of samite and was as young on the day he died as on their wedding day."

%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%

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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Wed Oct  6 21:58:33 1999
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Date: Wed, 06 Oct 1999 20:09:51 -0700
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-Poster: Susan Fatemi <susanf@netwiz.net>

R.L. Shep wrote:
> 
> Following is an updatedVictoria Rivers -- will be visiting Seattle on
> October 21-22 to speak at a Thursday evening opening at Material
> Possessions and to give a "collections seminar" at the Henry Gallery
> the following noon, October 22nd. Victoria is a professor of textile
> history and studio fiber arts at UC, Davis. Her visit will coincide
> with the Thames & Hudson publication of her new book, *The Shining
> Cloth*.

My copy of this book *just* arrived from Amazon. Haven't had
time to really go thru' it but it looks fabulous! Wish I
could attend all the events as well!

Susan

-- 
Oh Noh! Kimonos!
susanf@netwiz.net
http://www.netwiz.net/~susanf
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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Wed Oct  6 22:53:39 1999
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-Poster: lilinah@grin.net

Hope Greenberg <hope.greenberg@uvm.edu> wrote:
>
>I've been looking for another example of the strange "linen band wrap"
>hat that is worn by the Magdalen in Rogier van der Weyden's painting. I
>finally found it. It's another painting by Rogier, this time worn by an
>attendant of Mary's. You can see it at:
>http://www.uvm.edu/~hag/sca/15th
>So we have two hats of this type. What does that prove? Absolutely
>nothing! Well, it proves that Rogier used this type of hat in two
>paintings, but it prooves nothing about whether this was a figment of
>his imagination, a weird one-only hat worn by someone he once saw, or
>something else. I don't know, but thought you might like to see it.

Having not really much to do with whether or not this is an actuall sort of
headdress in the 15th C., i will note that Gautemalan women in some regions
wear (or at least traditionally wore), a headdress made of a narrow hand
woven tapestry band wrapped around their heads in a manner awefully similar
those in these two paintings, except they don't have lace edges and they
are quite brightly colored.

These Guatemalan head bands were eventually somewhat commercialized in the
1970's and have since been sold as decorative trim in the US (here in No
Cal, at least). I just bought some a month or two ago.

But once upon a time, they were wound around their heads into a big flat
wheel, very like van der Weyden's paintings. So, it's historical, if not
Low Land-ish :-)

Lilinah


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From: "L.L. Johnson" <athenekore@hotmail.com>
To: h-costume@indra.com
Subject: Re: H-COST: Naming My Business
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-Poster: "L.L. Johnson" <athenekore@hotmail.com>


>
>-Poster: Margo Anderson <margo@directcon.net>

<snip> "Shoot Yourself In the Foot Enterprises".
>

Catchy name. Twisted, shows ingenuity and ambition; with just a touch of 
insanity. I like it. :-)

Lonna

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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Wed Oct  6 23:21:20 1999
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From: "Sidne Kneeland" <skskaw@worldaccessnet.com>
To: <margo@directcon.net>
Cc: <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: H-COST: naming
Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1999 21:31:54 -0700
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-Poster: "Sidne Kneeland" <skskaw@worldaccessnet.com>

I really like 

            Measure of Time  !!!! 

Really!!  
Sidne 

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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Wed Oct  6 23:24:43 1999
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Date: Tue, 05 Oct 1999 14:13:53 -0700
To: h-costume@indra.com
From: Carolyn Kayta Barrows <kayta@slip.net>
Subject: Re: H-COST: Sari Silk - Elizabethan
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-Poster: Carolyn Kayta Barrows <kayta@slip.net>

>>Sari-weight silk has to be lightweight to hang right.  It's really scarfy
>>and floaty, 

and

However, many of the "special occasion" saris could not be
>described as "scarfy and floaty."  I know this from first-hand experience
>pawing over some of these "special" saris at a Toronto shop.  The silk is
>supple, but quite dense, and usually there is some pretty serious brocading
>going on (not just at the hems) which also increases the weight. These are
>the kind of saris which are worn for weddings or festivals.  When lined (and
>not even heavily lined) can do a pretty good job of duplicating the look of
>Elizabethan silks.

Mea oops-a.  I used to own a red sari the dealer said was for weddings, and
it was pretty stiffly encrusted with gold and silver threads.  The cloth
was thin between the metal threads, see-thru in fact.  And yes, I have seen
others of stuff the weight of dupioni silk with additional metal threads.
I agree - these are not your everyday wear.  Many sari stores in this area
don't even carry saris that high-end.  (But my favourite sari stores are
the ones which sell remnants.)


Kayta
     ////.\\\
    ////-@@\\\
   ((((   7 (((
     |   -- ))))
     * )   (((((
  /----\   /---\

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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Wed Oct  6 23:36:04 1999
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Date: Wed, 06 Oct 1999 20:41:03 -0700
From: Carolyn Richardson <benrumson@worldnet.att.net>
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-Poster: Carolyn Richardson <benrumson@worldnet.att.net>

MzScahlett@aol.com wrote:
> 
> -Poster: MzScahlett@aol.com
> 
> <<  I'd recommend a Pfaff. (huge snip)>>
> 
> <<  I'd be leery myself - Pfaff recently declared bankruptcy and while that
> doesn't spell their death knell yet, it's not a good sign.  I vote for  New
> Home/Janome.  But talk about your bells and whistles! >>
> 
> Carolyn,  Pfaff is currently owned by Singer, which I doubt is going under
> any time soon.   The company has filed for reorganization/protection from
> creditors, which is true of perhaps a third of the corporations in this
> country and abroad at any given time.

My leeriness is based on the fact that Pfaff is a *German* based company
which means that the bankruptcy laws may not be the same as they are in
the US (which tends to be more lenient in that regard), although I
confess I don't know what the German bankruptcy laws are like.  Second,
Singer declared bankruptcy *primarily* because of Pfaff's bankruptcy -
if it hadn't been for that there's doubt that there would have been a
serious need for it.  That indicates to me that the financial position
of Singer is a little more precarious than they *may* be letting on.  

Is that reasonf or panic or not buying Pfaff?  No, that's not what I
said - I just said I'd be leery (i.e. cautious) because of the
problems.  I seriously doubt Singer will go under, but that's no
guarantee for their Pfaff division.

Carolyn (a mundane accountant and one who's been thru one too many
"reorganizations" for her liking)


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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Wed Oct  6 23:38:42 1999
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From: Carolyn Richardson <benrumson@worldnet.att.net>
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-Poster: Carolyn Richardson <benrumson@worldnet.att.net>

Deborah Pulliam wrote:
> 
> -Poster: pulliam@acadia.net (Deborah Pulliam)
> 
> <<a feature of the ancient Kenmores. I thought they were low-end machines.
> Maybe I should treat mine with more respect.>>
> 
> The ancient Kenmores are mostly ancient Singers. Sears didn't do any of
> their own manufacturing of anything; all appliances, etc. were made for
> them by other manufacturers. At various times, the sewing machines were
> made by Singer and White, and probably others.

Actually, Singer *never* made badged machines.  But White, National and
a ton of others did, and many of them made "clones" of Singer machines. 
And I mean down to the parts being interchangeable.  My mother-in-law
has a clone of the later Singer 115 models made in Japan. 

As long as they're solid metal, it doesn't really matter who made them -
they'll sew thru darn near anything.

Carolyn


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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Wed Oct  6 23:38:56 1999
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-Poster: Carolyn Richardson <benrumson@worldnet.att.net>

Cynthia Barnes wrote:
> 
> -Poster: "Cynthia Barnes" <Cynthia_Barnes@phoenix.com>
> 
> >That's very strange.  I've never seen that cotton facing thing up here.

the only sari's I own with the cotton facing tend to be very light
weight polyester chiffons.  I call the cotton the "dust ruffle" although
I don't know what the Indian's call it.

Carolyn


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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Wed Oct  6 23:39:32 1999
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Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1999 23:54:22 -0500
To: h-costume@indra.com
From: Melanie Schuessler <melanie@faucet.net>
Subject: Re: H-COST: mystery portrait
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-Poster: Melanie Schuessler <melanie@faucet.net>

>-Poster: MzScahlett@aol.com
>Have you tried comparing the sitter to other portraits in the book where you
>might find a suspected artist? Then you could search the art websites by
>artist, or maybe you should just try searching them by year.

That's a thought, though I would certainly be an amateur art analyst.  I
would say that the artist is likely Italian or Spanish, as the features
show more sensitivity than the rather abstracted English style, but beyond
that I can't make any guesses.

>If you could provide a scan of the portrait, so that we could see what you're
>looking for, perhaps I might have it in my database of acquired
>portraiture... the written description sounds like so many Elizabethan
>portraits.

As it happens, I'm getting a scanner relatively soon.  I'll send you a copy
when I have it.

As Deborah and Robin rightly suggest, I suspect that this portrait is in a
private collection and that the only color reproduction may be in Janet
Arnold's archives (oh for an hour in there with a large sack!!).

>-Poster: "Genevieve de Courtanvaux" <gdc@airmail.net>
>
>I am afraid that I don't have time to look but is
>there an index of the portraits in the book? If so that may give you more
>information. If not you might try writing the publisher to see if they know
>where Janet found a color copy of it. The only other thing you might be able
>to do is see if indexes of portraits exist (I know they exist for
>illuminations). These indexes tell where the art work in particular is
>published.

The photographic acknowledgements do not list this image.  When looking in
an index, how would I locate this portrait (no artist, no subject, no
location)?  Is there a listing under Unknown?  I have looked in Carol
Jackson's collection online (in the unknown section)--are there others I
should try?

Many thanks for all the kind suggestions!

Melanie


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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Thu Oct  7 00:53:10 1999
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From: Margo Anderson <margo@directcon.net>
Subject: Re: H-COST: Obscure machine: "Domestic" brand "Gaiety" model
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-Poster: Margo Anderson <margo@directcon.net>

At 08:43 PM 10/05/1999 -0500, you wrote:
>
>-Poster: Heather Law <lynnx@enteract.com>
>
>Has anyone ever heard of this machine ("Gaiety" is a decal on the
>machine, "Domestic" is a metal logo)?  
  

The White sewing machine company used to be called White Domestic.  I
believe the "Domestic" name was a seperate company that White later merged with.

Margo

"One Tough Costumer"
http://www.directcon.net/wander/main.htm

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-Poster: "Michelle" <mandrake@mypad.com>


>        So maybe the makers of thread that won't work in our machines need
>to hear a write in letter campaign from us each saying that they're losing
>a lot of money because we can't/won't buy their product as long as it costs
>us extra time/money/repair bills/frustration.  Carol


Absolutely, but do you think that they will care?  I am not sure that it is
a problem only with Viking machines.  In the large scheme of things, Vikings
machine users may only be a mere .08% of the mass of sewing machines in use
out there.  It may make more sense to complain to Viking to fine tune the
burrs.  However, in the long run,  I would prefer better quality thread.
Michelle

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From: "Michelle" <mandrake@mypad.com>
To: <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: H-COST:  Name My Business
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-Poster: "Michelle" <mandrake@mypad.com>


>-Poster: "Christopher Ballis" <stilskin@netspace.net.au>
>
>Cutesy-pie's Lovable Costume Emporium?
>
Be careful!  She warned you!! ;)
Michelle

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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Thu Oct  7 01:22:50 1999
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Date: Thu, 07 Oct 1999 02:35:43 -0400
To: h-costume@indra.com
From: Danielle Nunn <dnunn@interlog.com>
Subject: Re: H-COST: Sari Silk - Elizabethan
In-Reply-To: <Pine.OSF.3.96.991006100809.13544B-100000@bigred.unl.edu>
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-Poster: Danielle Nunn <dnunn@interlog.com>

Greetings,

>Everybody's talking about using saris in various types of garb; out of
>curiosity, as someone living in a place where saris just aren't seen, >how
much do the nice, heavy, somewhat appropriate wedding saris cost?

It completely depends on the quality of the sari, how well you know the
merchant, and how well you bargin.  Around here, bargaining starts at half
of the price tag and goes down from there.  I've paid as little as $100
Canadian and up.  There's one in particular I'm lusting after that is $700.
 Sigh.

Cheers,
Danielle

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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Thu Oct  7 01:22:55 1999
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Date: Thu, 07 Oct 1999 02:33:01 -0400
To: h-costume@indra.com
From: Danielle Nunn <dnunn@interlog.com>
Subject: Re: H-COST: RE:Sari silk
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-Poster: Danielle Nunn <dnunn@interlog.com>

Greetings,

>I rather doubt this has to do w/ the Southern US.

It was just a thought.  ;)

>You probably dont take the sari you're interested to the desk and ask
>them to apply the cotton thingy (it has a name, which escapes me), or to
>cut off the extra meter to make the matching blouse.  Most sari shops
>include these services in the cost of the garment just as Nordstroms
>includes the cost of small alterations in mens pants. By taking the sari
>as yardage (would that be "meter-age"?) you are saving them this >trouble.
 You could probably wangle a discount knowing this.

Actually, even in the ones my Indian friends wear I've never seen it.
Maybe it's a tradition from a certain locality in India.  Also making the
choli is an "extra" in all the stores that I frequent (I'm on excellent
terms with the some of the merchants and had asked about it).  And yes,
it's still yardage. <g>  Actually, fabric shopping around here can get kind
of confusing.  Half the stores (non culturally specific stores) sell by the
meter and yet a lot of the stores in the garment district still sell by the
yard.  When you go fabric shopping you have to go armed with the amount you
need in yards and in meters.

Cheers,
Danielle

>>ask for Banarsi
>
>OTOH, if you like 2-3" border weaves in "cloth of gold" or brass w/ nifty
>CofG medallions all over, ask for the Bombay style saris. Great for
>Victorian "a disposition" gowns in fancy dress themes.
>--cin
>Cynthia Barnes
>408.570.1023
>Cynthia_Barnes@phoenix.com
>Phoenix Technologies
>411 E. Plumeria Dr.
>San Jose CA 95134
>"I think animal testing is a terrible idea; they get all nervous and
>give the wrong answers."
>

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Date: Wed, 06 Oct 1999 23:38:56 -0700
To: h-costume@indra.com
From: "Carol J. Bell Cannon" <cjcannon@greymists.com>
Subject: Re: H-COST: Re: sewing machines
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-Poster: "Carol J. Bell Cannon" <cjcannon@greymists.com>

At 11:22 PM 10/06/1999 -0700, you wrote:
>
>-Poster: "Michelle" <mandrake@mypad.com>
>Absolutely, but do you think that they will care?  I am not sure that it is
>a problem only with Viking machines.  
             I did not address Viking's machines only.  I meant everyone
here whose machine acts this way with the less expensive threads.  And yes,
I think that if we and SCA-Garb and some of the reenactment groups began an
extensive write-in campaign, and boycott of the offending thread, we might
get the companies' attention.

It may make more sense to complain to Viking to fine tune the
>burrs.  However, in the long run,  I would prefer better quality thread.
>Michelle
              And when the consumer shuts his/her pocketbook--you bet the
manufacturers will listen. :-)  But it has to be a well-coordinated effort,
so that they have reason to notice.
Carol, who's about as uncoordinated as a person gets, but that's another
story...

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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Thu Oct  7 01:36:20 1999
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Date: Thu, 7 Oct 1999 02:49:16 EDT
Subject: H-COST: Name My Business...some of my suggestions
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-Poster: Fopdejour1@aol.com

OK, here's a few of mine...not promising anything, so here goes....

 Modes de l'Histoire  (French is always "chic")  Modes of History

Classical Couture  or Couture Classics

Antiquity's Wardrobe/Closset

Backward Glances
( Fine clothing from our past)

Fashions from Time

Anyhow...that was my brainstorm...maybe something will trigger someone else 
to be more creative than I.

Charles
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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Thu Oct  7 01:42:08 1999
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From: "Michelle" <mandrake@mypad.com>
To: <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: H-COST: Found it
Date: Thu, 7 Oct 1999 00:05:44 -0700
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-Poster: "Michelle" <mandrake@mypad.com>


Hope wrote:
>> http://www.uvm.edu/~hag/sca/15th
>> So we have two hats of this type. What does that prove? Absolutely
>> nothing!
Cythia wrote:
>*laugh*  I agree.  Since both ladies are in the religious categories, I
>would still hesitate to use them for a regular ol' person.  I *would* use
>it for a masque or something like that.  :)
I am writing:
  I wonder if it is something that is pulled from biblical. Both portraits
(I think) have to do with Christ. It could be that the artist used mostly
the modern dresses, from his time, and biblicized it with the wrap style
headwear from what historical representation he had access to.
Michelle

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From: "Michelle" <mandrake@mypad.com>
To: <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: H-COST: Pattern Instruction sheets
Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1999 23:54:50 -0700
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-Poster: "Michelle" <mandrake@mypad.com>


>-Poster: Merouda the True of Beaumaris <keltia@serv.net>
>
>> I have a question about patterns:  Do people really like those fold out
>> instructions sheets that come with most patterns?
>
>I think they're fine.
>
>> The instruction sheets are good in that one can see a number of steps at
>> once, but I always seem to misplace them, especially with a complex
pattern
>> with multiple sheets.
>
>But this isn't the fault of the instruction sheets now is it?  *GGGGGGGGG*
>(meant with loving kindness :)  )
>
>> Would some other format, such as an 8 1/2" x 11" booklet, be preferable?

I would prefer something not so large. Half the size would be better so that
it is not neccessary to know mapfolding 101 to get it back into the
envelope.  I also, like getting some documentation and information with my
patterns as 'Period Patterns' does. This makes the letter size booklet sound
very appealing.
Michelle

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From: "Michelle" <mandrake@mypad.com>
To: <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: H-COST: recycling/questions-sewing machines
Date: Thu, 7 Oct 1999 00:13:45 -0700
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-Poster: "Michelle" <mandrake@mypad.com>




>
>-Poster: The Mulders <mulder@mail.brightok.net>
>
>When I had my bernina serviced in OKC I had to write a check.  They didn't
even
>ask for ID!!!!!  She said in the 21 years of service they never had a bad
check
>from a bernina owner!!!!  How about that!! :)


LOL!  Next time I write a check and they ask for identification, I'll tell
them, "Don't worry about it. You don't need it because I am a Bernina
owner!" (I guess I can't say that, I have a Viking.)
Michelle

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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Thu Oct  7 01:50:11 1999
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Date: Thu, 07 Oct 1999 00:04:08 +0000
From: Dietmar <dietmar@pacbell.net>
Subject: H-COST: Re: Name My Business
To: h-costume@indra.com, "MargoAnderson" <margo@directcon.net>
Message-id: <37FBE374.B7DCEAB2@pacbell.net>
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-Poster: Dietmar <dietmar@pacbell.net>

Greetings,

Margo wrote:

> I'm almost done with my business plan, but it lacks one thing: A name
> for the business. Since I've asked the list's help with everything else,
> of course I'm coming to you all for this, too.

All right. I love a good challenge. Here's some first thoughts:

A Stitch in Time

Past Panache

Period Panache

Timeless Treasures

Designs Through Time

Timeline Designs

Eternal ________ (Treasures, Designs, Style(s), Panache, etc.)

I agree with Carol about the words 'masterpiece' and 'perfect'. They sound a
little tough to live up to. My problem with 'regalia' is that it doesn't
really apply to costume, but to the sword, scepter, orb etc. But, I guess I'm
just picky that way. ;-)

Good luck, whatever you come up with.

Dietmar


"Victory or Defeat rests in God's hands;
 over Honor, we ourselves are Lord and Master."
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From: "Michelle" <mandrake@mypad.com>
To: <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: H-COST: Naming My Business
Date: Thu, 7 Oct 1999 00:21:36 -0700
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-Poster: "Michelle" <mandrake@mypad.com>

>
>>
>>-Poster: Margo Anderson <margo@directcon.net>
>
><snip> "Shoot Yourself In the Foot Enterprises".
>>
>
>Catchy name. Twisted, shows ingenuity and ambition; with just a touch of
>insanity. I like it. :-)
>
>Lonna

Sounds more like describing wine.
      Rare year. Fruity, yet woodsy undertones. No bite with just a touch of
smoothness.
Michelle

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From: "Michelle" <mandrake@mypad.com>
To: <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: H-COST: Re: sewing machines
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-Poster: "Michelle" <mandrake@mypad.com>


>             I did not address Viking's machines only.  I meant everyone
>here whose machine acts this way with the less expensive threads.  And yes,
>I think that if we and SCA-Garb and some of the reenactment groups began an
>extensive write-in campaign, and boycott of the offending thread, we might
>get the companies' attention.


What is offending to one machine, may not be to another. This may not be a
fair thing to do. It may be that the machines have preferences that are
different for each brand. If we all boycotted which threads were offensive
to the specific brand of machine we have, they would all be sunk. It depends
on the age of the thread too. The length of time in the store or in our
sewing rooms isn't the fault of the thread companies.
    Like guns, you have to buy the ammo that works well for your particular
gun. It isn't the fault of the ammunition maker if it doesn't work well in
every gun.
  If this is something that is a problem with Vikings only, then I can see
going somewhere with this. I can see going somewhere with this too,  if a
particular brand is offensive to every machine.
Michelle

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From: "Michelle" <mandrake@mypad.com>
To: <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: H-COST: Name My Business...some of my suggestions
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-Poster: "Michelle" <mandrake@mypad.com>



>
>Backward Glances
>( Fine clothing from our past)
>Charles


 I like that one. It has a ring to it.
Michelle

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From: teddy1 <teddy1@mdx.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: H-COST: Found it...AND Raglan....
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-Poster: teddy1 <teddy1@mdx.ac.uk>

Thanks Hope,
  
> I've been looking for another example of the strange "linen band
> wrap" hat that is worn by the Magdalen in Rogier van der Weyden's
> painting. I finally found it. It's another painting by Rogier, this
> time worn by an attendant of Mary's. You can see it at:
> http://www.uvm.edu/~hag/sca/15th So we have two hats of this type.
> What does that prove? Absolutely nothing! Well, it proves that
> Rogier used this type of hat in two paintings, but it prooves
> nothing about whether this was a figment of his imagination, a
> weird one-only hat worn by someone he once saw, or something else.
> I don't know, but thought you might like to see it. 

The dress is also similar to the one worn in the other painting - the 
"raglan" seam is there (this time visible from the back, and it looks 
(to me) like it could be a short sleeve rather than a wide shoulder-
strap this time.....



Teddy
(Trustworthy Evil-Bunny of Destiny, part-time Knave and Creature of
air and darkness, apparently!)
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From: teddy1 <teddy1@mdx.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: H-COST: Naming My Business
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-Poster: teddy1 <teddy1@mdx.ac.uk>


 
> How about.....
> Measures of Time
> Historic Patterns and Accessories

*This* one gets my vote... Though I'd say the "One Tough 
Costumer"  name could be kept in resrerve, perhaps for a "special" 
collection of more detailed/complicated patterns in the future or 
something....?

Whatever name you pick, I hope it all goes well.

Good luck getting the funding sorted.


Teddy
(Trustworthy Evil-Bunny of Destiny, part-time Knave and Creature of
air and darkness, apparently!)
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Subject: Re: H-COST: Margo's business .....seam allowance
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-Poster: teddy1 <teddy1@mdx.ac.uk>

I suspect this is one where you won't be able to please *everyone*

My view is just the opposite to Joan's

> Another thing I personally dislike is having someone else
> determine the seam allowance for me and include it in the pattern,
> since I hardly ever start with a 5/8" seam allowance.  "Show me the
> stitching line!"  and let me determine how much seam allowance to
> use.  I am accustomed to heavy paper patterns with no seam
> allowance and notches INTO the paper to use as match up marks.  
> Putting the notches on the edge of the seam allowance means that
> their accuracy is compromised when I try to bring them back to the
> stitch line before I cut my stiff paper copy without a seam
> allowance. 
 
I actively avoid patterns that don't include seam allowance.  I like to 
be able to cut something out and match up the edges of the fabric 
knowing that (in theory at least) the seam allowance is the same 
on both pieces and I don't have to spend extra time thinking about 
how much seam allowance to allow when cutting out each piece so 
they'll match up when I start sewing.

Sometimes, I *do* use a different seam allowance in certain 
situations, but it's usually a larger one, so cutting further from the 
edge of the pattern piece isn't a problem....

On the other hand, Margo, If you *do* go with the no-seam-
allowance option, I'd probably buy the patterns anyway on the 
grounds that any good pattern is better than no pattern at all for 
*most* of the stuff I'm interested in making....<g>

Teddy
(Trustworthy Evil-Bunny of Destiny, part-time Knave and Creature of
air and darkness, apparently!)
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Subject: H-COST: Machine origins:  Singer/Sears
Date: Thu, 7 Oct 1999 07:39:40 -0500
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From: Elisee du Lyonnais <elisee@sewingcentral.com>
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-Poster: Elisee du Lyonnais <elisee@sewingcentral.com>


>Deborah Pulliam wrote:
>> 
>> -Poster: pulliam@acadia.net (Deborah Pulliam)
>> 
>> <<a feature of the ancient Kenmores. I thought they were low-end machines.
>> Maybe I should treat mine with more respect.>>
>> 
>> The ancient Kenmores are mostly ancient Singers. Sears didn't do any of
>> their own manufacturing of anything; all appliances, etc. were made for
>> them by other manufacturers. At various times, the sewing machines were
>> made by Singer and White, and probably others.

Carolyn Richardson wrote:

>Actually, Singer *never* made badged machines.  But White, National and
>a ton of others did, and many of them made "clones" of Singer machines. 
>And I mean down to the parts being interchangeable.  My mother-in-law
>has a clone of the later Singer 115 models made in Japan. 

In my Sewing Machine Blue Book, the guide for values for used machines 
for us sewing machine dealers, it says in the Singer pages, "** after a 
model number indicates Singer machines which are sold by Sears.  A Sears 
model number is on the instruction book and the Singer number is on the 
ID plate.  If known, the Sears model number is listed, however, all model 
numbers marked '**' are sold by Sears."

Most of the models made by Singer and sold by Sears were made between 
1985 - 1989 and from 1990 - 1993. 

The earliest Kenmore not produced in the US was made in Japan in 1949.  
There was one model Mfd by Chrysler from 1960 - 1965, and has a salvage 
value of $1...

National, by the way, is listed as one of the many nameplates produced in 
China, Japan, Korea and Thailand.  

>As long as they're solid metal, it doesn't really matter who made them -
>they'll sew thru darn near anything.

As long as the parts were quality made when they were produced.  Some of 
the bottom line machines that are all metal produced in Brazil and 
Malaysia are a bearcat to get to sew properly, and impossible to get to 
sew really well.  Even bottom of the line machines from White, etc.  Look 
at the country of manufacture for a guideline when buying a low level 
machine.

Lisee (who seems to attract all the old homeless machines in her vicinity)

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Subject: Re: H-COST: Naming My Business
Date: Thu, 7 Oct 1999 07:49:34 -0500
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-Poster: Elisee du Lyonnais <elisee@sewingcentral.com>


>          "Patterns from the Past...Without the Pain!" :-)

Awfully close to Past Patterns, an existing company.

>   A Stitch in Time

an existing clothing merchant

>  Timeless Treasures

an existing merchant

>  Backward Glances
>   ( Fine clothing from our past)

ooh - this one is nice!

In any case, stating the patterns are designed by "One Tough Costumer" 
would be a nice catchphrase.

As a merchant of patterns, I would ask that the pattern number and title 
be along the top edge of the pattern, so displaying them in a rack is 
possible.  I like the booklet form on instructions, like Stretch and Sew. 
 And please don't make the cover low contrast (black on purple) so those 
of us who need to scan the pattern to advertise it have a chance to use 
your own artwork.  And when you're ready to wholesale, I'm ready to buy 
in quantity!  And selling them in Ziploc type bags is good too!  Paper 
pattern jackets rip when they are moved around, and if people remove the 
patterns to look at the instructions.

Lisee
www.sewingcentral.com
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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Thu Oct  7 07:19:24 1999
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Date: Thu, 07 Oct 1999 05:30:37 -0700
To: h-costume@indra.com
From: "Carol J. Bell Cannon" <cjcannon@greymists.com>
Subject: Re: H-COST: Margo's business .....seam allowance
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-Poster: "Carol J. Bell Cannon" <cjcannon@greymists.com>

At 11:40 AM 10/07/1999 +0000, you wrote:
>
>-Poster: teddy1 <teddy1@mdx.ac.uk>
>
>I suspect this is one where you won't be able to please *everyone*
>
>My view is just the opposite to Joan's
>I actively avoid patterns that don't include seam allowance.       
            I tend to vote with Teddy on this aspect. And do as she does:
>Sometimes, I *do* use a different seam allowance in certain 
>situations, but it's usually a larger one, so cutting further from the 
>edge of the pattern piece isn't a problem....
>Teddy
            And like Teddy--if your patterns are solid, people WILL buy
them regardless of these small quibbles, so suit yourself, Margo, and don't
let our thoughts make you crazy/[ier] than trying to start up the new
business already likely is. :-)  Carol
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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Thu Oct  7 08:05:46 1999
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From: " Firefly" <fire.fly@hotbot.com>
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-Poster: " Firefly" <fire.fly@hotbot.com>

Following up on this discussion...

I recently purchased a used Janome 8000.  It's a discontinued high-end model from about 5 years ago, so it's a good step up for me (I'm bowled over by all the fancy stitches and the embroidery capabilities).  Buing a used machine ended up being a good compromise between a price I could afford and the high-end features I wanted.

I do wonder, however, whether my "new" machine will survive the Y2k problem.  I wrote to Janome and haven't heard back from them.  I understand that the machine did come with a 25 year parts warranty, but I don't know if I can use this as the second owner.  The store I bought it from does give me a 3 month guarantee for the machine--however, that barely puts me into 2000 (and I understand that some problems may be delayed by a few months).

Any ideas on this one?

Mary
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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Thu Oct  7 08:19:43 1999
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Date: Thu, 7 Oct 1999 09:34:14 -0400 (EDT)
From: Kevin & Mara Riley <lindo@Radix.Net>
To: h-costume@indra.com
Subject: Re: H-COST: Pattern Instruction sheets
In-Reply-To: <199910062030.NAA08294@apollo.directcon.net>
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-Poster: Kevin & Mara Riley <lindo@Radix.Net>

I think the fold-out form isn't a bad idea, because it gives you an
overview of what's coming up next, step-wise.  I tend to read the
instructions through before cutting anything, and having to flip the pages
of a booklet (or put something on the booklet to hold the pages open)
might be a nuisance.

Cheers,
Mara


On Wed, 6 Oct 1999, Margo Anderson wrote:

> 
> -Poster: Margo Anderson <margo@directcon.net>
> 
> I have a question about patterns:  Do people really like those fold out
> instructions sheets that come with most patterns?
> 
> The instruction sheets are good in that one can see a number of steps at
> once, but I always seem to misplace them, especially with a complex pattern
> with multiple sheets.  
> 
> Would some other format, such as an 8 1/2" x 11" booklet, be preferable?  
> 
> Margo
> 
> "One Tough Costumer"
> http://www.directcon.net/wander/main.htm
> 
> 

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Date: Thu, 7 Oct 1999 09:59:19 EDT
Subject: H-COST: St. Louis Shirt
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-Poster: Kwhykelly@aol.com

Hi,

I sort of got roped into teaching a class this weekend.  I thought that doing 
the St. Louis shirt would be easy, as I have made them before and it's 
construction would be fairly painless for me and the class.  

My construction portion of the class is under control, but I am hoping you 
all could help me with the more detailed documenting of the this shirt or 
shirts of this time period.

I have the _Cut My Cote_ and while I will be using it for my primary source, 
I am hoping to get other sources for further detail and accuracy.

Some things that I would like to be able to answer if it is brought up:

So, what type of stitches were used at that time?  Running stitch?  How were 
the hem and sleeves finished, rolled hem?  I am assuming from the picture 
that the neck line was bound in some sort of tape or cloth, but what?  Wool, 
more linen, or didn't I read in one of these posts that silk was used 
sometimes?

Also, I was wondering if anyone knew of any pictures of people wearing them?  
I was looking in my copy of Piponnier's  _Dress in the Middle Ages_ but did 
not see anything.  Any online sources that I can download?

Many thanks

Kristi Kelly
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From: "Cynthia Barnes" <Cynthia_Barnes@phoenix.com>
To: <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: H-COST: RE: when to buy good thread
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-Poster: "Cynthia Barnes" <Cynthia_Barnes@phoenix.com>


Carol said> So maybe the makers of thread that won't work in our machines
need
to hear a write in letter campaign from us each saying that they're losing
a lot of money because we can't/won't buy their product as long as it costs
us extra time/money/repair bills/frustration.

Why waste the time?  Vote w/ your purse.  Buy the good stuff: maxilock,
gutermann, molnicke & others.  You wont have to deal w/ pilling, weak
threads, lumpy threads & breakage nearly as much. While the viking requires
it, even my 1961 kevlar stitching Kenmore likes good stuff better.  The
difference in cost is trivial.

I also clean the machines & change needles a the start of every project.
Your good fabric &  good design deserve a sharp needle, nice thread & a
properly oiled machine. Less frustration & more time saved in the long run.

--cin
Cynthia Barnes
408.570.1023
Cynthia_Barnes@phoenix.com
Phoenix Technologies
411 E. Plumeria Dr.
San Jose CA 95134
"I think animal testing is a terrible idea; they get all nervous and
give the wrong answers."

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From: "Penny Ladnier" <penny.creative.outlets@erols.com>
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References: <199910070302.VAA13013@net.indra.com> <E11ZCjk-0003Gt-00@mongoose.slip.net>
Subject: Re: H-COST: Margo's business name
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-Poster: "Penny Ladnier" <penny.creative.outlets@erols.com>

My entry...  

Seams Antique Patterns

Later... Penny
http://www.costumegallery.com 

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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Thu Oct  7 09:04:59 1999
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-Poster: Marionetta@aol.com


If you're focus is Elizabethan you could do the Shakespearean thing and have: 

As you Like It Patterns

Romeo & Juliet Patterns

Measure for Measure Patterns,etc.

Just don't do Much ado About Nothing Patterns...;-)

Cheers,

Loren Dearborn
marionetta@aol.com

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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Thu Oct  7 09:23:10 1999
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Subject: H-COST: prints in private collections
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-Poster: ches@io.com

Speaking of art work in private collections that will never be seen in
books, here is a merchant that has the most beautiful prints and
engravings I have seen in a while. He took great care to display them very
well on ebay.

http://cgi3.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewListedItems&userid=martin2001

I suggest those of you interested please go and collect the images with
text to catalog them for your own biblio's.

Sincerely,
F. Havas
ches@io.com

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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Thu Oct  7 09:46:44 1999
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-Poster: Margo Anderson <margo@directcon.net>

While I personally prefer patterns with no seam allowances, the overwhelming
preference, at least in the US, is for patterns that have the seam
allowances included.  Even Burda gave up and started including them a few
years ago.  I know when I was working in a fabric store it was like pulling
teeth to get people to use Burda because they would have to add them. 

Margo

"One Tough Costumer"
http://www.directcon.net/wander/main.htm

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From: "Genevieve de Courtanvaux" <gdc@airmail.net>
To: <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: H-COST: mystery portrait
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-Poster: "Genevieve de Courtanvaux" <gdc@airmail.net>


>The photographic acknowledgements do not list this image.  When looking in
>an index, how would I locate this portrait (no artist, no subject, no
>location)?  Is there a listing under Unknown?  I have looked in Carol
>Jackson's collection online (in the unknown section)--are there others I
>should try?
>
>Melanie
>
I have not ever looked in indexes for portraits so I am unsure as to how to
look for this piece. I would think that there would be either an unknown
sitter or unknown artist section. Good Luck!
Carol Ross

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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Thu Oct  7 10:10:25 1999
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Date: Thu, 07 Oct 1999 08:26:59 -0700
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-Poster: Merouda the True of Beaumaris <keltia@serv.net>

> How about.....
> Measures of Time
> Historic Patterns and Accessories
>

Oh yeah.  This is good.  Cynthia

--
Cynthia Long
Merouda the True of Beaumaris
Barony of Madrone
Kingdom of An Tir


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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Thu Oct  7 10:25:13 1999
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-Poster: Merouda the True of Beaumaris <keltia@serv.net>

> >> http://www.uvm.edu/~hag/sca/15th
> >> So we have two hats of this type. What does that prove? Absolutely
> >> nothing!
>   I wonder if it is something that is pulled from biblical. Both portraits
> (I think) have to do with Christ. It could be that the artist used mostly
> the modern dresses, from his time, and biblicized it with the wrap style
> headwear from what historical representation he had access to.

Yup, that's it.  Allegorical.  Don't know if Rogier had historical
representation from another company for those head dresses but turbans were
certainly popular for representing middle eastern persons.  And in some weird
way, this is sort of a turban.  Well it's wrapped anyway.

Cynthia

--
Cynthia Long
Merouda the True of Beaumaris
Barony of Madrone
Kingdom of An Tir


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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Thu Oct  7 10:30:33 1999
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-Poster: Merouda the True of Beaumaris <keltia@serv.net>

> > http://www.uvm.edu/~hag/sca/15th
>
> The dress is also similar to the one worn in the other painting - the
> "raglan" seam is there (this time visible from the back, and it looks
> (to me) like it could be a short sleeve rather than a wide shoulder-
> strap this time.....

And notice, no waist seam.  And I love the detail of the see-through
pre-partlet fichu type thing that is pinned into a point center back.
It also looks to me like there are two side back seams that are only sewn
to mid thigh.  Showing off the underdress.  This is a *very* interesting
painting.  Thanks!

--
Cynthia Long
Merouda the True of Beaumaris
Barony of Madrone
Kingdom of An Tir


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Date: Thu, 07 Oct 1999 11:16:15 -0500
From: Marc Carlson <marc-carlson@utulsa.edu>
Subject: Re: H-COST: 14th century Dress
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-Poster: Marc Carlson <marc-carlson@utulsa.edu>

<"Arianne de Dragonnid  mka Grace Payne" <arianne@blackroot.org>>
>...I'd be interested in seeing your documentation, my lady.  I've seen
>some OK stuff, but I'm mostly running on feelings down here, and am 
>surrounded by people who seem to think that the cotehardie was a tight 
>version of the "Greenland Gown" (I like that name, as it strongly 
>insinuates that it was worn in Greenland, as opposed to, say, France), 

Unfortunately it's NOT the only gown worn in Greenland, even in the
Middle Ages.  It's only one of many.

>unless perhaps they wear it because it's easier to fit their more >substantial curves into.  I've worked out a pattern that fits me 
>perfectly and gives just the right silhouette, and the lady Elizabeth >quoted is right, it is possible and quite easy actually to work out.  
>You just have to give up your attachment to straight lines:  the only >straight lines in my pattern are in the skirt...

Gee, the only straight lines in the original are in the godets in the
front and back skirts, the entire front and back pieces upto the
armholes, the side pieces (although the wedge to the waist, and the
strips above them are different straight lines), oh and the sleaves.

Marc
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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Thu Oct  7 11:08:41 1999
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Date: Thu, 7 Oct 1999 12:22:53 EDT
Subject: H-COST: Sari cotton strips
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-Poster: JPMcTeer@aol.com

My friend from India who wears saris all the time sews a cotton strip to the 
part that tucks in at the waistband so that it stays tucked in.  The cotton 
is not as slippery as the silk, or especially polyester.  The strip also 
lengthens the skirt portion so that taller people  can wear the ones meant 
for use by the (often shorter) people of India, by not losing any length of 
the original fabric as turnover at the waist. 

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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Thu Oct  7 11:17:43 1999
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From: "Jessica Wilbur" <jessica@pop.net>
To: h-costume@indra.com
Date: Thu, 7 Oct 1999 12:36:39 -0400
Subject: Re: H-COST: Naming My Business
Priority: normal
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-Poster: "Jessica Wilbur" <jessica@pop.net>



> 
> -Poster: "Megan McHugh" <mmchugh@starpower.net>
> 
> How about "Costumes by Margo", or "Fantastic Frocks"?
> "Historically Yours, by Margo" or just "Historically Yours"

Just a note: Historically Yours is the name of an existing pattern and book merchant. They 
are the ones who own the rights to Period Patterns.

--Jessica
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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Thu Oct  7 11:23:48 1999
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From: "Steve & Michelle Plumb" <splumb@ic.net>
To: "h-costume@indra.com" <h-costume@indra.com>
Date: Thu, 07 Oct 1999 12:38:24 -0400
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-Poster: "Steve & Michelle Plumb" <splumb@ic.net>


>
>>Backward Glances
>>( Fine clothing from our past)



> I like that one. It has a ring to it.
>Michelle

Ooooh.  That one has my vote, too!
Graceful and elegant.

--another Michelle


================================================================================
                      Steve & Michelle Plumb   --    splumb@ic.net
                                     Plymouth, Michigan  USA


"Insisting on perfect safety is for people
 who don't have the balls to live in the
 real world. "
     -- Mary Shafer, NASA Ames Dryden
================================================================================


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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Thu Oct  7 11:31:26 1999
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Date: Thu, 07 Oct 1999 09:30:32 -0700
From: Lavolta Press <lavolta@best.com>
Organization: Lavolta Press
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Subject: Re: H-COST: prints in private collections
References: <Pine.LNX.4.10.9910070935430.18331-100000@fnord.io.com>
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-Poster: Lavolta Press <lavolta@best.com>



ches@io.com wrote:

> -Poster: ches@io.com
>
> Speaking of art work in private collections that will never be seen in
> books, here is a merchant that has the most beautiful prints and
> engravings I have seen in a while. He took great care to display them very
> well on ebay.
>
> http://cgi3.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewListedItems&userid=martin2001
>
> I suggest those of you interested please go and collect the images with
> text to catalog them for your own biblio's.

I guess I shouldn't mention that doing this without the seller's permission
would be a copyright violation?  The modern scans or photos of the old images
are the property of the seller, and so are the descriptions the seller wrote.
Furthermore, ebay is making increasingly frequent statements about how other
people do not have the right to use their sellers' data--I think another
statement about this was recently included in the ebay user agreement.

Fran Grimble

---------------------------------------------
Visit our web pages!
Books on historic costume and vintage clothes
http://www.best.com/~lavolta/index.htm
Historic and vintage dance
http://www.best.com/~lavolta/dance/index.htm


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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Thu Oct  7 12:29:28 1999
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Date: Thu, 7 Oct 1999 13:42:07 EDT
Subject: Re: H-COST: Pattern Instruction sheets
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-Poster: MzScahlett@aol.com

In a message dated 10/6/1999 1:32:40 PM Pacific Daylight Time, 
margo@directcon.net writes:

<< I have a question about patterns:  Do people really like those fold out
 instructions sheets that come with most patterns?
 
 The instruction sheets are good in that one can see a number of steps at
 once, but I always seem to misplace them, especially with a complex pattern
 with multiple sheets.  
  >>
Don't mind them, as they can be stuck under the corner foot of my sewing 
machine and held in place to be referred to easily.  I think they must be 
popular because the printing is cheaper.  As long as the instructions are in 
a good, clear, order, with some description of any really unusual techniques, 
then I"m happy.

angela
+++++
Angela F. Lazear
Costumes & Custom Clothing
Theatrical Costume Design
"See! How she leans her cheek upon her hand, 
O! That I were a glove upon that hand,
That I might touch that cheek."
Romeo & Juliet, II, ii - W. Shakespeare
QUICK-LINK: http://come.to/costumes
FULL URL: http://sj.znet.com/~thespian/angil/index.html

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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Thu Oct  7 12:34:34 1999
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Date: Thu, 7 Oct 1999 12:53:31 -0500 (CDT)
From: Emma Elizabeth Lehman <00217146@bigred.unl.edu>
To: h-costume@indra.com
Subject: H-COST: Dyeing quesion
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-Poster: Emma Elizabeth Lehman <00217146@bigred.unl.edu>


I have a piece of fabric that I got at a thrift store cheap which I have
been intending to use on my first attempt at Tudor garb.  I have, however,
decided that the color is inappropriate, and furthermore, I don't like it.
The fabric itself is a nice, heavy, drapy satin-weave cotton, kelly green
on one side and a mottled turquoise/kelly teal-ish color on the other.  

What I would like to know is what color I should over dye it for something
more appropriate, and what kind of dye is reasonably easy to use for
someone without a kitchen or washer of her own (ie: living in a dorm).

Many thanks in advance for any help or advice

Emma

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From: Julie Adams <savaskan@sd.znet.com>
Subject: Re: H-COST: Found it
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-Poster: Julie Adams <savaskan@sd.znet.com>

>-Poster: Merouda the True of Beaumaris <keltia@serv.net>
>
>> >> http://www.uvm.edu/~hag/sca/15th
>> >> So we have two hats of this type. What does that prove? Absolutely
>> >> nothing!

While I realize you folks are being conservative, all I can say is that in
just about every case where I've researched an unusual treatment like that,
in the late 15th, early 16th c art,  where the rest of the costume is true
to a period style, I've found similar examples in non-allegorical art.
Sometimes they are hard to find, but dismissing it as a turban is
unrealistic too. By the 15th c, painters had lots examples of turbans from
previous painters... I can't even guess why one would paint a fram filter
hat instead...

Julie Adams


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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Thu Oct  7 12:44:00 1999
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From: Julie Adams <savaskan@sd.znet.com>
Subject: Re: H-COST: Found it...AND Raglan....
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-Poster: Julie Adams <savaskan@sd.znet.com>

>-Poster: Merouda the True of Beaumaris <keltia@serv.net>
>
>> > http://www.uvm.edu/~hag/sca/15th
>>

>It also looks to me like there are two side back seams that are only sewn
>to mid thigh.  Showing off the underdress.  This is a *very* interesting
>painting.  Thanks!

I've seen that split side opening on some other flemish gowns. I'm pretty
sure that some of the lion and unicorn tapestry ladies also have side slits
in their overgown.


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Message-ID: <00a801bf10ef$896fd8e0$ba973018@pbc.adelphia.net>
From: "Erica Pence" <antiquity@adelphia.net>
To: <h-costume@indra.com>
References: <199910071459.HAA19656@apollo.directcon.net>
Subject: Re: H-COST: Margo's biz name and seam allowance
Date: Thu, 7 Oct 1999 14:12:36 -0400
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Status: RO


-Poster: "Erica Pence" <antiquity@adelphia.net>

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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Margo wrote:

<<While I personally prefer patterns with no seam allowances, the =
overwhelming preference, at least in the US, is for patterns that have =
the seam allowances included. =20

There is an easy way to satisfy both types of customers.  Simply include =
the standard 5/8" seam allowance with a sold line.  Then include a =
dotted cutting line for no seam allowance.  The customer chooses to use =
the standard seam allowance or make their own and you're a heroine for =
making everyone happy.=20

As for a name, I cast my vote for "Measure of Time" and "Measure for =
Measure Patterns".  I agree with the poster who suggested fitting the =
name to your target market as well as to the product itself.  If you =
have nearly completed your business plan, you should have all this =
information at your fingertips.  I'd like to add, the name you decide =
should fit your present situation as well as your plans for the future.

Best of luck, Margo!

Erica D. Pence
Robes of Antiquity
www.robesofantiquity.com
Online store coming soon!

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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Thu Oct  7 13:17:21 1999
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Date: Thu, 07 Oct 1999 11:34:06 -0700
From: Merouda the True of Beaumaris <keltia@serv.net>
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Subject: Re: H-COST: Found it...AND Raglan....
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-Poster: Merouda the True of Beaumaris <keltia@serv.net>

> >It also looks to me like there are two side back seams that are only sewn
> >to mid thigh.  Showing off the underdress.  This is a *very* interesting
> >painting.  Thanks!
>
> I've seen that split side opening on some other flemish gowns. I'm pretty
> sure that some of the lion and unicorn tapestry ladies also have side slits
> in their overgown.

But these slits are in the back!  I've only seen them in the front before.

--
Cynthia Long
Merouda the True of Beaumaris
Barony of Madrone
Kingdom of An Tir


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From: Kat & Kent <kdyer@home.com>
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Subject: Re: H-COST: RE:Cleaning Machines (was when to buy good thread
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-Poster: Kat & Kent <kdyer@home.com>

One of the things I do is keep a can of compressed air by the machine so
that every time I change the bobbin I remember to clean out the
machine.  It's easy to just 'spritz' the bobbin compartment before you
put the bobbin back in.

Kat
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Subject: Re: H-COST: Margo's business .....seam allowance
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-Poster: Kat & Kent <kdyer@home.com>

Margo Anderson wrote:
> 
> While I personally prefer patterns with no seam allowances, the
> overwhelming preference, at least in the US, is for patterns that have
> the seam allowances included.  Even Burda gave up and started
> including them a few years ago.  I know when I was working in a fabric
> store it was like pulling teeth to get people to use Burda because
> they would have to add them.

Here's my take on it... if you mark the sewing line and have a seam
allowance provided then the customer can choose to use *either*.  It's
easy enough to just cut on the dotted line if you *don't* like seam
allowance... I do both (well, actually I make butcher paper copies of
almost *everything*... definitely anything multi-sized!!).  When I draft
my own I tend to have either very small seam allowances or very large
ones depending on how I'm finishing the raw edges.

Kat
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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Thu Oct  7 14:00:19 1999
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Subject: Re: H-COST: prints in private collections
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-Poster: Margo Anderson <margo@directcon.net>


>I guess I shouldn't mention that doing this without the seller's permission
>would be a copyright violation?  The modern scans or photos of the old images
>are the property of the seller, and so are the descriptions the seller wrote.

I agree.  I save dagguerotypes from ebay listings all the time, but only for
my own personal viewing.

Here's a hypothetical question:  what if I had permission from an image's
owner to publish said image, say, a photograph, and put it on my website.
If the person who gave me the permission later sells the photograph,  does
the new owner have the right to make me take it off the site?

Margo

"One Tough Costumer"
http://www.directcon.net/wander/main.htm

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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Thu Oct  7 14:09:25 1999
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Date: Thu, 07 Oct 1999 15:23:10 -0700
From: Freya <jns-shadow@home.com>
Organization: House Wolfholme
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To: h-costume@indra.com
Subject: Re: H-COST: Margo's business .....seam allowance
References: <199910071459.HAA19656@apollo.directcon.net> <37FCEAC3.4FD93EC0@home.com>
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-Poster: Freya <jns-shadow@home.com>

Kat & Kent wrote:
> 
> -Poster: Kat & Kent <kdyer@home.com>
> 
> Margo Anderson wrote:
> >
> > While I personally prefer patterns with no seam allowances, the
> > overwhelming preference, at least in the US, is for patterns that have
> > the seam allowances included.  Even Burda gave up and started
> > including them a few years ago.  I know when I was working in a fabric
> > store it was like pulling teeth to get people to use Burda because
> > they would have to add them.
> 
> Here's my take on it... if you mark the sewing line and have a seam
> allowance provided then the customer can choose to use *either*.  It's
> easy enough to just cut on the dotted line if you *don't* like seam
> allowance... I do both (well, actually I make butcher paper copies of
> almost *everything*... definitely anything multi-sized!!).  When I draft
> my own I tend to have either very small seam allowances or very large
> ones depending on how I'm finishing the raw edges.
> 
> Kat
Ditto.  What she said.

Debbie
-- 
Freya

Abair ach beag, is abair gu math e.
Say but little, and say it well.
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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Thu Oct  7 14:14:33 1999
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To: h-costume@indra.com
From: Margo Anderson <margo@directcon.net>
Subject: Re: H-COST: RE:Cleaning Machines (was when to buy good thread
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-Poster: Margo Anderson <margo@directcon.net>

At 01:42 PM 10/07/1999 -0500, you wrote:
>
>-Poster: Kat & Kent <kdyer@home.com>
>
>One of the things I do is keep a can of compressed air by the machine so
>that every time I change the bobbin I remember to clean out the
>machine.  It's easy to just 'spritz' the bobbin compartment before you
>put the bobbin back in.
>
Some repair technicians claim that this can cause problems by forcing lint
particles further into the mechanism.  They say you should use one of those
nifty little vaccuum cleaners that computer people use.  You can also buy a
kit of mini attachments for a full size canister vac, too.  

Margo

"One Tough Costumer"
http://www.directcon.net/wander/main.htm

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From: Margo Anderson <margo@directcon.net>
Subject: Re: H-COST: Margo's business .....seam allowance
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-Poster: Margo Anderson <margo@directcon.net>


>
>Here's my take on it... if you mark the sewing line and have a seam
>allowance provided then the customer can choose to use *either*.

the problem is, when you're multi-sizing, it's impossible to give both
stitching and cutting lines without them overlapping.  Given that most
people prefer seam allowance, I'll be going that way and giving tips for
removing them if peope want to.  

I just realized I'm making my self nervous talking about this as if it was a
done deal.  I'm still writing my business plan, I meet with my potential
investor in two weeks, and nothing is confirmed.  At the risk of sounding a
bit New Age, could everyone please send me positive energy on this venture?
I haven't been this nervous, excited, stressed and happy at once since my
first child was born.   EEK!

Margo

"One Tough Costumer"
http://www.directcon.net/wander/main.htm

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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Thu Oct  7 14:29:34 1999
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From: "Jessica Wilbur" <jessica@pop.net>
To: h-costume@indra.com
Date: Thu, 7 Oct 1999 15:43:25 -0400
Subject: Re: H-COST: Re: Name My Business
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-Poster: "Jessica Wilbur" <jessica@pop.net>


Hello,

I just have to throw in my two cents!  =)
> 
> -Poster: Dietmar <dietmar@pacbell.net>
> 
> All right. I love a good challenge. Here's some first thoughts:
<snip>
> 
> Past Panache

This sounds like she's gone past panache and into gaudy!  =)
> 
> Period Panache

I like this one... but then, I like the word "panache".  
> 
> Timeless Treasures
Eh... a little cheesy for my taste...
> 
> Designs Through Time
> 
> Timeline Designs
> 
I like both of these, though I like "Designs Through Time" better.

> Eternal ________ (Treasures, Designs, Style(s), Panache, etc.)

Eternal Panache! <grin>  Maybe not...  =)
> 
> I agree with Carol about the words 'masterpiece' and 'perfect'. They sound a
> little tough to live up to. My problem with 'regalia' is that it doesn't
> really apply to costume, but to the sword, scepter, orb etc. But, I guess I'm
> just picky that way. ;-)

I agree on both counts. "Masterpiece Patterns" makes me think of "Masterpiece Theatre"...
> 
> Good luck, whatever you come up with.

Ditto!

--Jessica
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From: "StitchWitch" <stitchwitch@excite.com>
To: h-costume@indra.com
Subject: Re: H-COST: RE:Cleaning Machines (was when to buy good thread
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-Poster: "StitchWitch" <stitchwitch@excite.com>



> Some repair technicians claim that this can cause problems by forcing
lint
> particles further into the mechanism.  They say you should use one of
those
> nifty little vaccuum cleaners that computer people use.  You can also buy
a
> kit of mini attachments for a full size canister vac, too.  

I have one of those attachment kits on order. As soon as it arrives, I
intend to take it for a 'test drive'. If anyone is interested in a review,
let me know and I'll post how well it works.

Kate
----
StitchWitch

A learned bastard takes precedence over an ignorant high priest. - The
Talmud, 5th Cen.




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From: "StitchWitch" <stitchwitch@excite.com>
To: h-costume@indra.com
Subject: Re: H-COST: Margo's business .....seam allowance
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-Poster: "StitchWitch" <stitchwitch@excite.com>

>  At the risk of sounding a
> bit New Age, could everyone please send me positive energy on this
venture?
> I haven't been this nervous, excited, stressed and happy at once since my
> first child was born.   EEK!
> 
> Margo

Not new-agey at all! Even us 'old style' folks send good vibes to each other
when needed. 

Now *ahem* to make this somewhat H-Costume, I'll pull out my pointy hat
(traditionally decorated with gold tissue and spangles) and my Victorian
Magic Stuff outfit . . . 

*POUF!*

There! You have been happily magicked, and can do whatever you set your mind
to. Now, go ye forth and conquer! 

Kate
----
StitchWitch

A learned bastard takes precedence over an ignorant high priest. - The
Talmud, 5th Cen.




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From: Julie Adams <savaskan@sd.znet.com>
Subject: Re: H-COST: Found it...AND Raglan....
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-Poster: Julie Adams <savaskan@sd.znet.com>

>-Poster: Merouda the True of Beaumaris <keltia@serv.net>
>
>> >It also looks to me like there are two side back seams that are only sewn
>> >to mid thigh.  Showing off the underdress.  This is a *very* interesting
>> >painting.  Thanks!
>>
>> I've seen that split side opening on some other flemish gowns. I'm pretty
>> sure that some of the lion and unicorn tapestry ladies also have side slits
>> in their overgown.
>
>But these slits are in the back!  I've only seen them in the front before.

They look to be on the side in line with the side seam to me, though the
side seam is set slightly towards the back. The other slits I've seen have
have also been on the side, though usually straight down from the armpit.

Julie Adams


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Date: Thu, 07 Oct 1999 15:03:31 -0500
From: Kat & Kent <kdyer@home.com>
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Subject: Re: H-COST: Margo's business .....seam allowance
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-Poster: Kat & Kent <kdyer@home.com>

Margo Anderson wrote:
> 
> the problem is, when you're multi-sizing, it's impossible to give both
> stitching and cutting lines without them overlapping.  Given that most
> people prefer seam allowance, I'll be going that way and giving tips
> for removing them if peope want to.

That's fine by me!!!  Of course, I'll probably be buying them anyway! 
It's a pity you can't do color or you could have a different color for
each size.

> I just realized I'm making my self nervous talking about this as if it
> was a done deal.  I'm still writing my business plan, I meet with my
> potential investor in two weeks, and nothing is confirmed.  At the
> risk of sounding a bit New Age, could everyone please send me positive
> energy on this venture? I haven't been this nervous, excited, stressed
> and happy at once since my first child was born.   EEK!

Energy on it's way!  I think everything will go very, very, very well. 
Maybe everyone's talking about it like it's a done deal will make it so
(we change things through will & intent <wink>).

Kat
looking forward to seeing patterns by One Tough Costumer
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From: "Cynthia Barnes" <Cynthia_Barnes@phoenix.com>
To: <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: H-COST: re: The fall at the bottom of a Sari (was "Sari cotton thing")
Date: Thu, 7 Oct 1999 13:25:16 -0700
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-Poster: "Cynthia Barnes" <Cynthia_Barnes@phoenix.com>


>The strip also lengthens the skirt portion so that taller people can wear
the ones meant
for use by the (often shorter) people of India, by not losing any length of
the original fabric as turnover at the waist.


We're talking about many different cotton add-ons. To summarize:
1. JPMcTeer described 2 kinds one added at the waist to lengthen for the
tall folk,
2. and the slip-preventer that sounds like it's a facing, also at the waist
3. Kayta described a stiffener that makes the pleats fall correctly (it's
not clear whether this is at the waist or hem),
4. Someone else mentioned a "dust ruffle" which sounds like it extends below
the hem & touches the floor,
5. I've described (not well) a piece that runs the entire length of the hem
giving weight and proper hang to the lighter, floaty saris.  It stops as the
sari begins to move upward forming the shoulder cover & hanging piece w/ the
pallou (the nifty woven design at the end).

#2  You wear a petticoat & tuck into that.
#4  I just dont believe anyone would add 3-4" of cheap, ugly cotton to the
bottom of a nice sari, sorry.
#5  This is the way mine was "built" at the sari shop & my S Indian
co-workers & friends approve.

So, I've just asked Bindumalini (my coworker) her opinion.  Some things: the
choli is called "blouse" when speaking Canada; choli is the Hindi word.  The
cloth piece is a "fall" in Canada (lang not country).  Younger women often
secure the CF pleats to the petticoat with a safety pin on the inside. Older
ladies never do.

She thought that putting the fall on the top was funny... "Indian women
arent that tall!", she said. The slipping theory made her laugh out loud.
"What nonsense!"  The real purpose of the hidden fall at the hemline is to
give the extra weight. Second, she says, if the sari has the beautiful gold
weave at the bottom, the loose threads are covered so you wont step on them.

To wrap up (pun intended), sounds like there's lots of ways to wear 'em.
--cin
Cynthia Barnes
408.570.1023
Cynthia_Barnes@phoenix.com
Phoenix Technologies
411 E. Plumeria Dr.
San Jose CA 95134
"I think animal testing is a terrible idea; they get all nervous and
give the wrong answers."


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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Thu Oct  7 15:14:48 1999
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Date: Thu, 07 Oct 1999 13:30:22 -0700
From: Merouda the True of Beaumaris <keltia@serv.net>
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Subject: Re: H-COST: St. Louis Shirt
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-Poster: Merouda the True of Beaumaris <keltia@serv.net>

> So, what type of stitches were used at that time?  Running stitch?

Yes, and back stitch.  And a few others.  Take a look at the Museum of London's
_Textiles and Clothing 1150-1450_.  There is stuff on construction techniques in
there, including sleeve finishes.  The St. Louis shirt is the only one of it's
kind in existence that I know of.  I am of the impression that it is made
entirely from linen, including the fabric used to bind the neck.

> Any online sources that I can download?

Hmmm, not that I know of.  Not primary sources anyway.

Cynthia
--
Cynthia Long
Merouda the True of Beaumaris
Barony of Madrone
Kingdom of An Tir


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-Poster: Merouda the True of Beaumaris <keltia@serv.net>

Well, I ordered 10 yards of black and 5 yards or brown velveteen from
them.  Some of you expressed a desire to know the quality.  I'm
pleased.  It isn't that luscious Empress velveteen but then it was $3
per yard too.  A long yard.  39 inches so I got almost 11 yards of the
black.  It's cotton, as nice as anything available at JoAnn's (except
Empress velveteen) and totally worth it.  I am quite pleased, it will
make nice pants for work and a circle skirt I've been dreaming of.

So, good velveteen, 16.25 yards of it, for $55 including shipping.
I'm a satisfied customer.

Cynthia / Merouda
--
Cynthia Long
Merouda the True of Beaumaris
Barony of Madrone
Kingdom of An Tir


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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Thu Oct  7 16:24:53 1999
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-Poster: cynthia j ley <cley@juno.com>

Thanks everyone for your suggestions! 8)



				Arlys

___________________________________________________________________
Get the Internet just the way you want it.
Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month!
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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Thu Oct  7 16:25:51 1999
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Date: Thu, 7 Oct 1999 16:39:36 -0500 (CDT)
To: h-costume@indra.com
Subject: Re: H-COST: prints in private collections
In-Reply-To: <199910071912.MAA16938@apollo.directcon.net>
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-Poster: ches@io.com

those kind of rights will always belong to the person that made or took
the picture. There are some real sharp folks on this list that can tell
you the complete scoop on that though.

Sincerely,
F. Havas
ches@io.com

On Thu, 7 Oct 1999, Margo Anderson wrote:

> Date: Thu, 7 Oct 1999 12:12:46 -0700
> From: Margo Anderson <margo@directcon.net>
> Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com
> To: h-costume@indra.com
> Subject: Re: H-COST: prints in private collections
> 
> 
> -Poster: Margo Anderson <margo@directcon.net>
> 
> 
> >I guess I shouldn't mention that doing this without the seller's permission
> >would be a copyright violation?  The modern scans or photos of the old images
> >are the property of the seller, and so are the descriptions the seller wrote.
> 
> I agree.  I save dagguerotypes from ebay listings all the time, but only for
> my own personal viewing.
> 
> Here's a hypothetical question:  what if I had permission from an image's
> owner to publish said image, say, a photograph, and put it on my website.
> If the person who gave me the permission later sells the photograph,  does
> the new owner have the right to make me take it off the site?
> 
> Margo
> 
> "One Tough Costumer"
> http://www.directcon.net/wander/main.htm
> 
> 

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-Poster: pulliam@acadia.net (Deborah Pulliam)

<<If the person who gave me the permission later sells the photograph,  does
the new owner have the right to make me take it off the site?>>

Probably. Reproduction rights usually -- not always -- go with the sale
(major exception is when the person selling the work created it. In other
words, when you buy an original painting or work of art from the artist,
you normally don't automatically get the reproduction rights.)


Deborah



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Date: Thu, 7 Oct 1999 18:12:12 EDT
Subject: Re: H-COST: Phoenix Textiles
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-Poster: Mayfair13a@aol.com

In a message dated 10/7/99 1:40:25 PM Pacific Daylight Time, keltia@serv.net 
writes:

<< 
 So, good velveteen, 16.25 yards of it, for $55 including shipping.
 I'm a satisfied customer.
 
 Cynthia / Merouda
 --
 Cynthia Long
 Merouda the True of Beaumaris
 Barony of Madrone
 Kingdom of An Tir
  >>
Hi,

I'm new to this list.  Sounds like a great deal to me.  Could I get the scoop 
on how to order from Phoenix?

Thanks,
Pasha
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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Thu Oct  7 17:19:07 1999
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-Poster: Merouda the True of Beaumaris <keltia@serv.net>



> I'm new to this list.  Sounds like a great deal to me.  Could I get the scoop
> on how to order from Phoenix?

http://www.phoenixtextiles.com

:)  Welcome!

Cynthia
--
Cynthia Long
Merouda the True of Beaumaris
Barony of Madrone
Kingdom of An Tir


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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Thu Oct  7 18:14:51 1999
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Subject: Re: H-COST: Pattern Instruction sheets
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-Poster: "Kathryn L. Herb" <kayherb@juno.com>



Hmmm.....I seem to be in a minority so far.  The smaller size sheets
would indeed store better, but I like to pin the bigger ones to the
low-mounted 6'x4' bulletin board on the wall behind my machine.  Then I
can see it as I sew and it's easier to look ahead to what's coming.  


That's also where I pin the parts of what I'm working on (trims, extra
needles, reference photos, two pins in a line to set my ruler on, etc.,
etc.) so I have them right at hand.  If it weren't for pressing, I'd
never have to get up, and with my fibromyalgia, that's a blessing!  <G> 
It's not exactly a bulletin board -- made it by making a braced frame of
1"x3"s, covering that with cardboard and covering that with fabric jes'
fer pretty.  It folds in the middle, should I ever decide to take it down
to store in the closet.


So, now you know my opinion!  <G>


Kay
kayherb@juno.com

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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Thu Oct  7 19:03:02 1999
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-Poster: Margo Anderson <margo@directcon.net>

At 04:39 PM 10/07/1999 -0500, you wrote:
>
>-Poster: ches@io.com
>
>those kind of rights will always belong to the person that made or took
>the picture. 

Yes, but I'm talking about photos taken by people who have been dead for a
hundred years.  It's a horribly confusing grey area, in which it's generally
assumed that the owner of the actual photograph owns the rights...but what
if there were originally multiple copies, that are now owned by multiple
people....ACK!

Margo

"One Tough Costumer"
http://www.directcon.net/wander/main.htm

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Subject: Re: H-COST: St. Louis Shirt
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-Poster: The Purple Elephant <csmart@physics.adelaide.edu.au>

On Thu, 7 Oct 1999 Kwhykelly@aol.com wrote:

> 
> I have the _Cut My Cote_ and while I will be using it for my primary source, 
> I am hoping to get other sources for further detail and accuracy.
> 
I believe this shirt is also described in 'Evolution of Fashion' by Naomi
Tarrant (I think that's the right title).
> Some things that I would like to be able to answer if it is brought up:
> 
> So, what type of stitches were used at that time?  Running stitch?  How were 
> the hem and sleeves finished, rolled hem?  I am assuming from the picture 
> that the neck line was bound in some sort of tape or cloth, but what?  Wool, 
> more linen, or didn't I read in one of these posts that silk was used 
> sometimes?
> 
> Also, I was wondering if anyone knew of any pictures of people wearing them?  
> I was looking in my copy of Piponnier's  _Dress in the Middle Ages_ but did 
> not see anything.  Any online sources that I can download?
> 
I don't know if you'll have much luck finding pictures of something exactly
like that because the artwork of that time doesn't get into seam details.
Isn't it a 13th century shirt? Try looking for pictures from the Windmill
Psalter or early calendars or Books of Hours. You might be able to find
someone going about in their shirt in the marginal illustrations.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Claire F. Clarke       "What is this world if, full of care, 
Physicist, writer,     We have no time to stand and stare?"
and non environmentally                     Robert Louis Stevenson
friendly substance.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Thu Oct  7 19:20:10 1999
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To: <h-costume@indra.com>
References: <199910052000.NAA16223@apollo.directcon.net> <37FBE374.B7DCEAB2@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: H-COST: Re: Name My Business
Date: Thu, 7 Oct 1999 16:59:34 -0500
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-Poster: "gail_middleton" <gail_middleton@email.msn.com>

There is a quilting website named "Paper Panache" which is selling
paper-piecing patterns. Perhaps it would be good to avoid a name that sounds
too much like that.

Gail M.

----- Original Message -----
From: Dietmar <dietmar@pacbell.net>
To: <h-costume@indra.com>; MargoAnderson <margo@directcon.net>
Sent: Wednesday, October 06, 1999 7:04 PM
Subject: H-COST: Re: Name My Business


>
> -Poster: Dietmar <dietmar@pacbell.net>
>
> Greetings,
>
> Margo wrote:
>
> > I'm almost done with my business plan, but it lacks one thing: A name
> > for the business. Since I've asked the list's help with everything else,
> > of course I'm coming to you all for this, too.
>
> All right. I love a good challenge. Here's some first thoughts:
>
> A Stitch in Time
>
> Past Panache
>
> Period Panache
>
> Timeless Treasures
>
> Designs Through Time
>
> Timeline Designs
>
> Eternal ________ (Treasures, Designs, Style(s), Panache, etc.)
>
> I agree with Carol about the words 'masterpiece' and 'perfect'. They sound
a
> little tough to live up to. My problem with 'regalia' is that it doesn't
> really apply to costume, but to the sword, scepter, orb etc. But, I guess
I'm
> just picky that way. ;-)
>
> Good luck, whatever you come up with.
>
> Dietmar
>
>
> "Victory or Defeat rests in God's hands;
>  over Honor, we ourselves are Lord and Master."



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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Thu Oct  7 19:50:07 1999
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Date: Thu, 07 Oct 1999 18:01:03 -0700
From: Susan Fatemi <susanf@netwiz.net>
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Subject: Re: H-COST: RE:Sari silk
References: <000001bf101f$b07ce930$6b037a86@phoenix.com> <37FC1B19.D72C1C40@worldnet.att.net>
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-Poster: Susan Fatemi <susanf@netwiz.net>

Carolyn Richardson wrote:

> the only sari's I own with the cotton facing tend to be very light
> weight polyester chiffons.  I call the cotton the "dust ruffle" although
> I don't know what the Indian's call it.
> 

If anyone's keeping score, a friend sent me several used saris
in a nice weight, from London. They all have the cotton hem lining. 
(I saw a similar lining on a vintage dress -- possibly
Victorian -- that I assume fulfilled the same function:
keeping the hem clean)

Susan F.
-- 
Oh Noh! Kimonos!
susanf@netwiz.net
http://www.netwiz.net/~susanf
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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Thu Oct  7 20:25:46 1999
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Date: Thu, 07 Oct 1999 21:45:50 -0400
From: Jean Zerby <jzerby@scnc.pcs.k12.mi.us>
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Subject: Re: H-COST: Magdalen sleeves
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.990930210233.3378H-100000@shell.nightowl.net> <37F57B4D.11E65C53@inreach.com>
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-Poster: Jean Zerby <jzerby@scnc.pcs.k12.mi.us>

I too have seen several paintings and drawings where this style of dress
was ment to stand alone, w/o an overdress. The brocaded sleeve is pinned on
for several reasons. 1. bcz brocade was too expesive to make a whole dress
out of but sleeves could be exchanged between may dresses.2. pins such as
the gold or possibly brass pin in the magdalen painting were fluanted as a
sign of wealth as were the sleeves. The world of the Medieval Housebook
shows many period drawings in this basic style.
Jean

Diana H wrote:

> -Poster: Diana H <dch@inreach.com>
>
> Robin Netherton wrote:
>
> > -Poster: Robin Netherton <robin@shell.nightowl.net>
> >
> > On Thu, 30 Sep 1999, Elizabeth Jones wrote:
> >
> > > >Well, first off, the dress she's seen wearing is her underdress,
> > over
> > > >which would have gone a fashionable gown (as is indicated by the
> > fancy
> > > >embroidered/brocaded sleeve).
> >
> > -- That isn't what I think I see.  Her sleeve has a pin, which leads
> > me to
> > -- believe that the sleeves are not part of a dress but, pinned on to
> > make
> > -- her plain and sleeveless gown more fashionable.
> >
> > > I believe the first set of comments is more accurate. This is a
> > > representation of (dare I say it?) a kirtle or underdress. Sorry,
> > don't
> > > know the Flemish/French  term as we have already discussed. The
> > sleeves
> > > were pinned on to a short sleeved underdress, but would have shown
> > under
> > > her overdress - houppelande, etc.
> >
> > That was my assumption for a long time, no doubt because I read that
> > explanation somewhere years ago. But after spending a lot of time
> > studying
> > 15th-century Flemish dress last year, I've been rethinking that idea.
> > There's no doubt that the short-sleeved dress is an underdress, but
> > once I
> > started looking, I didn't see any pictures that jumped out at me as
> > being
> > examples of fancy false sleeves showing out from under the large
> > sleeves
> > of an overdress. In fact, most of the overdresses I saw
> > contemporaneous
> > with these short-sleeved underdresses had narrow sleeves, not wide
> > ones
> > that would show off a fancy undersleeve.
> >
> > That got me wondering whether the short-sleeved underdresses were
> > developed specifically to be worn under the (relatively new)
> > narrow-sleeved overdresses -- maybe to reduce warmth and bulk on the
> > arm.
>
> Diana here.....
>
> While I normally know more about Italian than anything, I found this
> style to be particularly interesting and so I did some searching and
> here is what I found:
>
> This Flemish style of chemise, short-sleeved overdress, then pinned-on
> sleeve is shown in a number of paintings--just as is.  I have not
> encountered a style of overdress where these sleeves show through.  That
> doesn't mean they didn't do it, but I think the typical style of this
> gown was just as you see in that picture of the Magdalen.
>
> I have a photocopy that I got from a library book which unfortunately
> has no particular painter credited but which does show three ladies
> maids in various states of this dress.  One is reaching into some wash
> water and is wearing a white chemise with sleeves that end between her
> elbow and wrist.  Her overdress is a mottled yellow and brown (time-worn
> paint maybe?) and on her right arm she is wearing one oversleeve in
> blue.  The lady next to her has a rose-colored overgown which is lined
> in gray and the skirt guarding is also gray.  She has an underskirt of
> green and a slightly different green for her oversleeves which are both
> being worn.  The third lady is wearing what appears to be an overdress
> of green which is lined in white where the neckline is high and
> everything matches.  Her dress is flipped up and she is wearing a white
> dress underneath which has a band of grey at the bottom which appears to
> be about halfway up her lower leg.
>
> I hope that wasn't too confusing.  I believe that the purpose to this
> style is that the decorative oversleeves could be of a very expensive
> fabric to show off some pretty stuff because you wouldn't have to buy
> much of it.  Also you would only wear them for fancy occasions or when
> you weren't going to get them dirty.
>
> Also take a look at this painting:
>
> http://cgfa.kelloggcreek.com/weyden/p-weyden7.htm
>
> Check out the lady on the far right and you will see her wearing the
> same thing again.  You can also see that her dress is lined in a
> different colored fabric because it is flipped up.  Also note the
> obvious seam lines in the bodice and the seam line indicating a separate
> skirt (i.e. not continuous princess line like a cotehardie).
>
> HTH,
>
> Diana :~>
>
> * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
> "There are too many mediocre things in life to deal with.....Love
> shouldn't be one
>  of them."
> --Ione Skye in "Dream for an Insomniac"
>

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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Thu Oct  7 20:36:05 1999
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Date: Thu, 07 Oct 1999 21:55:46 -0400
From: Jean Zerby <jzerby@scnc.pcs.k12.mi.us>
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References: <199909290800_MC2-86E6-EEE4@compuserve.com> <37F65003.68DE@virgin.net>
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-Poster: Jean Zerby <jzerby@scnc.pcs.k12.mi.us>

Do they have email/ web site?

Jean

Dawn wrote:

> -Poster: Dawn <dawn.wood1@virgin.net>
>
> Margaret Bolger wrote:
> >
> > -Poster: Margaret Bolger <Margaret_Bolger@compuserve.com>
> >
> > Apologies if you are already aware of this, but I thought it might be of
> > interest!
> >
> > At my 'Antique Costume & Textiles Fair' last week, Lindy Pickard and Dave
> > Rushworth were selling a whole load of patterns and handbooks - I think
> > they have only recently started their business.
> >
> > Their 45 patterns cover a number of periods : Viking, Medieval, 16thC,
> > English Civil War, 18thC, 19thC  -  and range from trousers, tunics,
> > doublets, hose, breeches, frock coats etc  in a wide range of sizes.
> >
> > Their handbooks include : Medieval Women, medieval men, How to make
> > Medieval Shoes, 17thC Women, 1798 French Revolutionary Uniform, 1812-15
> > French Infantry Uniform.
> > They also sell natural fibre textiles, buttons etc.
> >
> > Their business is called Petty Chapman and is based in Yorkshire UK.  Tele:
> > +44 (0) 1484.512968
> >
> > If anyone wants more information and their address, please get in touch
> > with me.  I also have a full list of the available patterns and handbooks.
> >
> > (I have no connection with them - just passing information along!)
> >
> > Margaret
> > antique costume & textiles
> > http://www.artizania.co.uk
> Lindy and Dave have been re-enactors in England for a great many years
> and are friends of mine they have done a great many periods between them
> and also have a business selling cloth, patterns, buttons etc to
> re-enactors over here.
> the patterns aren't too bad although as with all patterns they are
> generic and will not necessarily fit without altering to your own shape
>
> dawn
>

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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Thu Oct  7 20:41:14 1999
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Date: Thu, 07 Oct 1999 22:02:02 -0400
From: Jean Zerby <jzerby@scnc.pcs.k12.mi.us>
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-Poster: Jean Zerby <jzerby@scnc.pcs.k12.mi.us>

Bite your tongue! After a week away ( I'm an infrequent emailer ) I had 300
msgs! Most from this list. ACK!

Jean or Raella

Margo Anderson wrote:

> -Poster: Margo Anderson <margo@directcon.net>
>
> Is there a problem with the list?  After a weekend away, I have many fewer
> messages than I would normally expect, and a few of them seem to be
> responses to posts I haven't seen.
>
> Margo
>
> "One Tough Costumer"
> http://www.directcon.net/wander/main.htm
>

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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Thu Oct  7 20:49:04 1999
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Subject: Re: H-COST: prints in private collections
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-Poster: Susan Fatemi <susanf@netwiz.net>

Lavolta Press wrote:
> 
> I guess I shouldn't mention that doing this without the seller's permission
> would be a copyright violation?  The modern scans or photos of the old images
> are the property of the seller, and so are the descriptions the seller wrote.
> Furthermore, ebay is making increasingly frequent statements about how other
> people do not have the right to use their sellers' data--I think another
> statement about this was recently included in the ebay user agreement.
> 

I hate to get into this copyright thing, but we've had to
deal with it a lot lately at work (day job) on a collection
of pre-20th c. images. 
  The scans in question may be the physical property of the
owner,  but they can't be copyrighted if no "value" has been
added to a 2-D image (i.e. not changed in any way. If you get
creative with the Mona Lisa, it becomes *your* image!).
 You can take an "expired" image, make a postcard and publish
it. But if you haven't made any changes to the image, you still
can't copyright it. (I believe there was a very good website published
on
H-costume a while back with a good discussion of these very issues)

  Copyright was meant to protect the person who *created*
the work. Or in the case of "work done for hire", eg. for
a book or newspaper publisher, the copyright belongs to the
publisher. FOR A FINITE AMOUNT OF TIME. Not forever. 
(This is how Dover stays in business)
  If the image is 100 years or so old (just to be on the safe
side) and you take a photo of it, without adding any value,
just a reproduction of the image, you may own the physical
photo, but you don't own any right to the image. If you
put it up on the web, it would be almost impossible to
claim copyright or prove where someone else got it.
  The one image I looked at the site in question is an
etching. Therefore there were multiple copies to start with.
Really hard to prove the provenance of your copy.

  I'm not encouraging wholesale theft, or anything, it's
just that copyright issues are only really proved *in court*.
You sue, they sue, the lawyers win.
  This doesn't apply to 3-D objects by the way. If you
make a sculpture and someone else takes a photo of it, the
photographer owns the copyright to the photo, of course.
  In my job, we're always concerned with *not* violating
anyone's rights. We give our images away for free.
(A large famous California library which shall be nameless
owns several mid-19th c. sketches. Originals, not prints.
We were given slides of 4 of these by the person who
took the pictures. The Famous Library has insisted that
we not publish their sketches on our website. Even tho'
the artist is long dead, we have acceded to their wishes,
as "academic" courtesy. I don't think they have a *legal*
leg to stand on, but we don't want to make enemies either)

As always, make sure your rear is well-covered.
(If it's *really* serious, find a lawyer!)


Susan f.

-- 
Oh Noh! Kimonos!
susanf@netwiz.net
http://www.netwiz.net/~susanf
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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Thu Oct  7 20:52:15 1999
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-Poster: Jean Zerby <jzerby@scnc.pcs.k12.mi.us>

Try a good steamer. I've found that mine in the $70 range works well. They are
often meant for draperies.

Raella

Appin1@aol.com wrote:

> -Poster: Appin1@aol.com
>
> Several topics under one roof here.
>
> First, best "thrift shop" purchase(s): A fuchsia wool jacket, a taupe skirt
> with fuchsia print, fuchsia shoes (in my size), and a silk blouse -- a whole
> business ensemble (scattered throughout the shop) for about $50 -- it was
> pretty "upscale."
>
> Yesterday, at a street fair in Baltimore, I picked up some great costume
> jewelry and a wonderous dress -- 1920s antique, I think. Completely covered
> with blue/silver/gold bugle beads in an Art Deco design (background is blue).
> Long sleeves, scoop neck, no fastenings. Absolutely awesome -- I spotted it
> across the street and RAN. It was $20. No, it doesn't fit me (yet) but it may
> be a Christmas present for a friend, unless I decide to lose enough weight to
> fit into it. It requires NO HIPS. My friend who was with me suggested that I
> fasten it to the refrigerator to inspire me.
>
> Now, a couple of questions for the pros out there.
>
> 1) What iron would you recommend for costuming? I need something that will
> handle heavy-duty fabrics, velvets, as well as delicate sheers, do steaming,
> and is heavy enough to press down damasks.  Any ideas?
>
> 2) I am also in the market for a new sewing machine. I don't need much
> quilting ability or 10 different buttonholes, but once again, something
> versatile. The one I looked at seriously was a Viking (at about $1800), but I
> really didn't need all the features. I still drooled all over it.
> Recommendations?
>
> Thanks.
> Kathleen Norvell

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-Poster: MzScahlett@aol.com

In a message dated 10/7/1999 18:56:45 Pacific Daylight Time, 
jzerby@scnc.pcs.k12.mi.us writes:

<< Jean or Raella
 
 Margo Anderson wrote:
 
 > -Poster: Margo Anderson <margo@directcon.net>
 >
 > Is there a problem with the list?  After a weekend away, I have many fewer
 > messages than I would normally expect, and a few of them seem to be
 > responses to posts I haven't seen.
 > >>

Jean, the list seems to be repaired, but there was something wrong with it 
for a day or so. There were no posts at all, save 3-4, and obviously if you 
just waded through 300, that's quite a difference.  It happened to me too, so 
Margo was just trying to find out if the list admin needed to be notified.

angela

+++++
Angela F. Lazear
Costumes & Custom Clothing
Theatrical Costume Design
"If we shadows have offended, think but this,  and all is mended,
That you have but slumbered here, while these visions did appear."
A Midsummer Night's Dream; V, ii - W. Shakespeare
QUICK-LINK: http://come.to/costumes
FULL URL: http://sj.znet.com/~thespian/angil/index.html
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Date: Thu, 07 Oct 1999 22:42:35 -0400
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-Poster: Jean Zerby <jzerby@scnc.pcs.k12.mi.us>



Can anyone give me info for getting a hoop skirt/ (As cheap as possible, goes
w/o saying )

Thanks

Raella

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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Thu Oct  7 21:30:48 1999
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Date: Thu, 07 Oct 1999 22:45:29 -0400
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From: "Laurie L. Kittle" <gunstonian@mindspring.com>
Subject: H-COST: Seminar Announcement - For the Gents (long)
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-Poster: "Laurie L. Kittle" <gunstonian@mindspring.com>

Gunston Hall Annual Decorative Arts Seminar
"An Elegant Sufficiency": Gentlemen's Pursuits 1700-1825
Thursday, November 18, 1999 
Gunston Hall Plantation
Mason Neck, Virginia, USA


Mark Hutter			Suitable to His Station: The Gentleman and His Taylor
John R. Barden	   		"Innocent and Necessary": Music and Dancing in the Life
of 				Robert Carter of Nomony Hall
Susan Borchardt			Gunston Hall Plantation, Deputy Director for Collections
& 				Education, "My Mansion House and Seat": George Mason's 				Gunston Hall
Lunch & Tour of Gunston Hall
Demonstration			Jay Gaynor, A Gentleman's Firearms 
Mini-Exhibit			Paraphernalia to Suit Any Gentleman  
Patrick Sheary			A Clean, Well-Lighted Place for Books
Richard C. V. Nicoll		Taking Hold of the Reins: The Eighteenth-Century
Gentleman 				and the Horse 

Registration Fee: $75.00
$60.00 for Members of the Friends of Gunston Hall Plantation 
Deadline for Registration: November 15, 1999. 

For additional information contact (703)550-9220. FAX number:
(703)550-9480. E-mail:historic@gunstonhall.org. Website:
http://gunstonhall.org

Speakers

John R. Barden is the Reference/Research Services Librarian at the Muse Law
Library, University of Richmond. The focus of both his Master's and Ph.D
degrees in history was Robert Carter of Nomony Hall. Barden has many
strings to his bow, including law and library degrees and the authorship of
numerous historical and library publications. Along the way, Barden has
worked at Colonial Williamsburg, Tryon Palace, and the North Carolina
Division of Archives and History. 

Jay Gaynor, in his job as Curator of Mechanical Arts at Colonial
Williamsburg, is responsible for the implements, tools, and other
mechanical objects in the Foundation's collections and interpretive sites.
Among the exhibits he has curated was Tools: Working Wood in 18th-Century
America, an innovative look at the influence of tools on material culture.
Formerly a co-owner of the Jamestown Tool Company, Gaynor also has held
positions at the High Point Museum and Ohio Historical Society.      

Mark Hutter is Tailor for the Clothing Trades at the Colonial Williamsburg
Foundation. During the nearly twenty years he has spent working in museums
and living history programs, Hutter has studied and reproduced 18th-century
clothing from collections in the United States and abroad. He has shared
his knowledge with the field through lectures as well as first- and
third-person interpretations.

Richard C. V. Nicoll is Director of the Coach & Livestock Department at
Colonial Williamsburg, joining the staff fifteen years ago after spending
the previous fifteen years in the carriage and horse trade. An acknowledged
expert on the subject of carriages, Nicoll also oversees the operations of
the Wheelwright and Harness Shops. 

Patrick Sheary has been the Associate Curator of the Daughters of the
American Revolution Museum for the past four years. His exhibition American
Case Furniture, 1680-1840: Selections from the DAR Museum Collection won
accolades from both the press and scholars. While obtaining a Master's
Degree in Museum Studies from The George Washington University, Sheary
catalogued furniture at Colonial Williamsburg as well as worked in the
Foundation's Furniture Conservation Laboratory. 



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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Thu Oct  7 21:57:55 1999
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Date: Thu, 7 Oct 1999 20:11:25 -0700 (PDT)
From: Valerie Robertson <ladybriony@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: H-COST: sewing machines/Y2k
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-Poster: Valerie Robertson <ladybriony@yahoo.com>

Speaking as a recent Y2K project manager (brought it
in under budget and ahead of schedule, not that I'm
bragging), sewing machines fall under the category of
embedded systems -- IC chips incorporated into a
larger system that does something besides computing.  

A sewing machine is not likely to have a
year-dependent date function built into its chips,
much like a coffee maker or a VCR.  That being said,
however, I must offer a caveat: many manufacturers buy
generic chips in bulk for their products, and at least
some of those chips may have built-in routines that
are not used in the product (think of the plot line of
"Small Soldiers").  

On the other hand, we've already successfully passed
through almost all of the "deadly dates" prior to New
Year's 2000, including 1 January 1999, 9 April 1999
(99/99 in the Julian date form), 1 July 1999
(beginning of many US state fiscal 2000s), 9 September
1999 (9/9/99) and 1 October 1999 (beginning of US
federal fiscal 2000).

I would suggest one precaution (it can't hurt) -- keep
the machine turned off and unplugged during the actual
rollover from 1999 to 2000.  Simple check-sum date
routines function perfectly well on one side or the
other of that particular midnight, but can't make the
transition.  Taking a 20-minute break to ring in the
new year isn't so bad.

-Valerie

---  Firefly <fire.fly@hotbot.com> wrote:
> 
> -Poster: " Firefly" <fire.fly@hotbot.com>
> 
> Following up on this discussion...
> 
> I recently purchased a used Janome 8000.  It's a
> discontinued high-end model from about 5 years ago,
> so it's a good step up for me (I'm bowled over by
> all the fancy stitches and the embroidery
> capabilities).  Buing a used machine ended up being
> a good compromise between a price I could afford and
> the high-end features I wanted.
> 
> I do wonder, however, whether my "new" machine will
> survive the Y2k problem.  I wrote to Janome and
> haven't heard back from them.  I understand that the
> machine did come with a 25 year parts warranty, but
> I don't know if I can use this as the second owner. 
> The store I bought it from does give me a 3 month
> guarantee for the machine--however, that barely puts
> me into 2000 (and I understand that some problems
> may be delayed by a few months).
> 
> Any ideas on this one?
> 
> Mary
> ---
> Visit my homepage:
> http://pages.hotbot.com/travel/fire.fly
> 
> 
> 
> HotBot - Search smarter.
> http://www.hotbot.com
> 


=====

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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Thu Oct  7 22:25:07 1999
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From: "Franchesca Havas" <ches@io.com>
To: <scribes@castle.org>, "Scriptoris" <scriptoris@ansteorra.org>
Cc: <h-costume@indra.com>, "sca-garb" <sca-garb@list.uvm.edu>
Subject: H-COST: applying silver
Date: Thu, 7 Oct 1999 22:39:44 -0500
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-Poster: "Franchesca Havas" <ches@io.com>

I have a question that is applicable to all of you, in a way, sorta. I have
a friend who needs silver metallic flat lace. Unfortunately her only
discoveries so far are way to expensive for her needed amount. So she is on
a quest for making it out of a large quantity of off white cotton flat lace.

I suggested that she weave silver thread into the lace she has, her husband
suggested spray painting (some men, they paint everything!), and I also
suggested using silver leaf.

What are your collective thoughts on this and what kind of spray paint would
she use, what kind of thread, what kind of silver leaf adhesive.....what
other better ideas do you all have short of having to purchase some of the
expensive stuff?

Sincerely,
F. Havas
Dallas, Texas
motto: Numquam scribae ridente fide


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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Thu Oct  7 22:58:13 1999
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From: Margo Anderson <margo@directcon.net>
Subject: Re: H-COST: applying silver
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-Poster: Margo Anderson <margo@directcon.net>

>What are your collective thoughts on this and what kind of spray paint would
>she use, what kind of thread, what kind of silver leaf adhesive.....what
>other better ideas do you all have short of having to purchase some of the
>expensive stuff?
>
The first Renaissance court costume I ever made (can it really be 23 years
ago?)  had a forepart trimmed with $.05 a yard cotton lace which I spray
painted gold.  It looked really nice (unlike the rest of the costume).  Sort
of a matte finish, antique gold look.  Most of the gold is rubbed off now,
so your friend might want to think about using some sort of clear spray over
the metallic.  On the other hand, she probably isn't looking for decades
long durability!

Once I get this !@#$% business plan done, I'm going to take an afternoon to
put a "youthful efforts" page on my websight, including this dress.  I kept
it to teach me humility, but there are a few things on it, like that painted
lace idea, that I'm still proud of.

Margo Anderson

"One Tough Costumer"
http://www.directcon.net/wander/main.htm

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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Thu Oct  7 22:58:55 1999
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Date: Fri, 08 Oct 1999 00:15:16 -0400
From: Janice Dallas <janicedals@mediaone.net>
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-Poster: Janice Dallas <janicedals@mediaone.net>

I much prefer the unsheared corduroy they offer to any velveteen. 
Velveteens go gray on stage where the unsheared corduroy (also $3) stays
a rich, velvet-like color.  Found this out while experimenting with
tudor hoods and hats for "Man for all Seasons" in the early '80's.  I
also love cotton velvet but the prices seem to be the same as regular
velvet now-a-days.
-- 
Janice Dallas
JaniceDals@MediaOne.net
"Just so, the girl has beauty, virtue, wit..."
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-Poster: Margo Anderson <margo@directcon.net>

I should probably add that I never tried to wash or dry clean the costume
with the spray painted lace.  

Margo


"One Tough Costumer"
http://www.directcon.net/wander/main.htm

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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Thu Oct  7 23:09:17 1999
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From: Janice Dallas <janicedals@mediaone.net>
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Subject: H-COST: Re: hoop skirt
References: <006701bf0f7b$c3b86960$baa11f18@dsc.columbus.rr.com> <37FD5A05.3BFF9464@pcs.k12.mi.us>
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-Poster: Janice Dallas <janicedals@mediaone.net>

For really cheap, you have to make your own.  My first one was made from
electricians "fish" tape hung on twill tapes with loops over the waist
band for adjustments.  each hoop was covered in x-wide bias tape, so I
could pin to it for positioning, then sew in place.  I didn't know of a
source for steel tape at the time.  Only proble was fastening the ends
together.  I used shrink tubing, but it's not the best answer.  Makes a
very sturdy, but non- bendable hoop.  Next one was bought from Amazon
Vinegar and Pickleing co. and the third from alteryears.  I also picked
up a bridal petticoat from J.C. Penneys for occasions when a hoop was
impossible (plane flights, 1840's dresses, etc.
-- 
Janice Dallas
JaniceDals@MediaOne.net
"Just so, the girl has beauty, virtue, wit..."
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Date: Thu, 07 Oct 1999 23:30:29 -0500
To: h-costume-digest@indra.com
From: Pierre & Sandy Pettinger <costumrs@radiks.net>
Subject: H-COST: Re: cocoon coat
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-Poster: Pierre & Sandy Pettinger <costumrs@radiks.net>

>- -Poster: lilinah@grin.net
>
>>-Poster: Mayfair13a@aol.com
>>I am looking for a cocoon coat pattern made by Folkwear.  Folkwear has
>>discontinued it so it cannot be purchased through them.  Does anyone have
one
>>they wouldn't mind selling or renting?  Does anyone know where I might be
>>able to get my hands on the pattern for sale from a vendor?
>
>The Cocoon coat has not been discontinued, as it has never been released by
>Folkwear; it is in process of publication and will be released "reeeeel
>sooooon now".
>
>Visit:
>http://www.larkbooks.com/home.nav/fw/drawingboard.html
>for updates on the release date of the cocoon coat pattern.
>
>I, too, am looking forward to being able to buy it.

I believe she may be referring to the original pattern put out by Folkwear,
the "Poiret Cocoon Coat", which was one of the Metropolitan Museum
patterns.  The Met patterns are not being reprinted by Lark because of
licensing issues with the museum.

These also included the Algerian Suit and the Russian Cossack.

Sandy

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Date: Fri, 8 Oct 1999 00:43:32 EDT
Subject: Re: H-COST: Name My Business
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-Poster: Kijee@aol.com

    Good luck on this exiting endeavor! Here's my suggestion:

    "In a Timely Fashion"
    
        Kij Greenwood
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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Thu Oct  7 23:35:26 1999
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From: "Frank A Thallas Jr" <hardcorps@vcn.com>
To: <h-costume@indra.com>
References: <0.63d00d1a.252ed074@aol.com>
Subject: Re: H-COST: Name My Business
Date: Thu, 7 Oct 1999 22:51:13 -0600
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-Poster: "Frank A Thallas Jr" <hardcorps@vcn.com>

Oooh, that's a good one!

Liadain


> 
> -Poster: Kijee@aol.com
> 
>     Good luck on this exiting endeavor! Here's my suggestion:
> 
>     "In a Timely Fashion"
>     
>         Kij Greenwood
> 

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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Thu Oct  7 23:37:48 1999
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Date: Thu, 7 Oct 1999 23:49:00 -0500
From: KATHARINE WHISLER <KWHISLER@kentlaw.edu>
To: h-costume@indra.com
X-EXP32-SerialNo: 00102459
Subject: H-COST: Copyrights
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-Poster: KATHARINE WHISLER <KWHISLER@kentlaw.edu>

Margo asks:
> Here's a hypothetical question:  what if I had permission from an image's
> owner to publish said image, say, a photograph, and put it on my website.
> If the person who gave me the permission later sells the photograph,
> does the new owner have the right to make me take it off the site?

It depends!  Under the facts as you have given them, probably not.

"Copyright" is a funny thing.  You can slice the whole copyright to
something into infinitely small pieces (the right to adapt into a movie,
the right to adapt into a song, the right to adapt into paint-by-number,
the right of first publication, the right to print on t-shirts, the right
to print on bedlinens, the right of publication in Czech-speaking
countries only, the right to translate into Czech, etc., etc.)

The owner of the right to publish has given you a tiny part of that right
(the right to publish on your website).  Because they have given that
right to you, they cannot now give it to someone else.  So, the subsequent
owner of the rights to the image doesn't own the right to give *you*
permission (on not) to post on *your* website.  That means he or she can't
make you take it down.

But, in many cases, licenses to publish or reprint have limitations of one
kind or another on them.  In many cases, a license to post something on a
website will be limited in term.  So, if you had permission to post for
one year, the owner of the image sold it, and the year ended, you would
have to get permission to continue posting from the new owner-- who could
then refuse permission.  And you would be forced to take it down.

The situation gets a little strange in the case of a really old, public
domain image.  Now, there is no copyright for the owner to give you a
piece of-- only a right to let you look at and rephotograph or scan or
whatever, the image.  This is a "real property" right, not an 
"intellectual property" right.  It is as if someone let you in their yard 
to take a picture of their prize-winning roses.  In that situation, only 
you would own the copyright to the image you posted.  If the person let 
you look at the picture on the understanding that you wouldn't scan it and 
put it on your website and you did it anyway, you might have a breach of
contract, but you would not have violated the copyright.  Depending on the
details of whatever you agreed, you might have to take it down anyway.

But, back to the original question-- assuming that the original owner gave
you permission to scan the image, a subsequent owner wouldn't be able to
force you to take it down.

I hope this is a little clearer, at least in general terms!
Unfortunately, the way that these situations work out is highly dependant
on the particular facts at hand.

--Katharine Whisler


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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Thu Oct  7 23:54:08 1999
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From: KATHARINE WHISLER <KWHISLER@kentlaw.edu>
To: h-costume@indra.com
X-EXP32-SerialNo: 00102459
Subject: H-COST: Chinese headscarves for men?
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-Poster: KATHARINE WHISLER <KWHISLER@kentlaw.edu>

Recently, the man in my life asked me to make him an early (Tang
Dynasty, say) costume to wear to an SCA event.  After looking at a bunch
of art books, I think I have it covered, but there is one thing that still
really mystifies me.

Apparently, many of these men are wearing what looks like a hat but is
actually a black scarf tied over a topknot.  According to "5000 Years of
Chinese Costumes," the scarf has "ears" or extensions at the corners to
make it easier to tie.  My problem is that I can't quite figure out how
these things should be tied!  I think they wrap around with adjacent
corners tied in back of the head, and it looks like the other two corners
tie on top of the head in front of the topknot, but I'm not quite sure how
they wrap around before tying.

If anyone knows what I am talking about and has any ideas about this, I'd
sure appreciate it if you would share them.

Thanks,
Katharine Whisler

P.S. The other works I have consulted are:
Chinese Dress, by Wilson
The Treasures of the World: The Emperors of China
The Horizon Book of the Arts of China
China: A History in Art


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Date: Tue, 05 Oct 1999 14:32:10 -0700
To: h-costume@indra.com
From: Carolyn Kayta Barrows <kayta@slip.net>
Subject: Re: H-COST: Obscure machine: "Domestic" brand "Gaiety" model
In-Reply-To: <37FAA939.D117C56F@enteract.com>
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-Poster: Carolyn Kayta Barrows <kayta@slip.net>


>Has anyone ever heard of this machine ("Gaiety" is a decal on the
>machine, "Domestic" is a metal logo)?  It's a dumpster-dive rescuee, and
>seems to be stuck - stitch selector on a fancy stitch, roto thingie
>won't turn :-(  It looks about the same vintage as my Singer 403 or
>maybe later - but still all-metal.  Anyone out there ever heard of it,
>or have any clues on what's wrong with it?

One of my machines is a "Damascus Electric".  Add this name to the question.


Kayta
     ////.\\\
    ////-@@\\\
   ((((   7 (((
     |   -- ))))
     * )   (((((
  /----\   /---\

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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Fri Oct  8 00:15:59 1999
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Date: Thu, 7 Oct 1999 22:36:12 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jonna Hayden <jonna_hayden@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: H-COST: Name My Business...some of my suggestions
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-Poster: Jonna Hayden <jonna_hayden@yahoo.com>


> >>Backward Glances
> >>( Fine clothing from our past)
> 

Um, I'll give it a shot--although I like the one
above, too.

Clothing Re: Past
Fine Patterns for the Historical Sewer.

(I must be hungry. . .)

Jonna


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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Fri Oct  8 00:17:44 1999
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From: "K & J Hopkins" <khopkins@cyberhighway.net>
To: <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: H-COST: Books
Date: Thu, 7 Oct 1999 23:39:44 -0600
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-Poster: "K & J Hopkins" <khopkins@cyberhighway.net>

I was bad tonight, I let my DH talk me into going to Borders.

I made it out of there with only one book, Dangerous Beauty, and the
"Shakespeare Cats' calendar.  Have you seen this?  It is sooooooo cute!

The book I got is called 'Bruges and the Renaissance - Memling to Porobus'.

Beautiful color pictures! Mostly triptychs.  I have already found several
short sleeved plain overdresses/cotehardies (?) with beautiful brocade
sleeves coming out from under the dress sleeves and not attached at the
shoulder. I have not really had that much time to look at the book, I will
keep you posted.  

I guess that it is about time I learned how to us my mother's scanner.

I am very ignorant about art, but learn a little more everyday.  I am bound
and determined to read all these art books I have, after I read all of the
costume books.  Anyway, what is a triptych?  Three panels?  It seems to me
that they all center around a biblical event, so the center characters
could be said to be allegorical, but to either side seems to be regular
people (patrons?) praying or portraying a lesser character of the event. 
Am I close?

There are some where there is a herd of people praying!  I mean it, upwards
of 20 people!

Maybe someone out there can enlighten me.

There were two other books that I found that someone may be interested in;

Northern Renaissance Art - 1350 to 1575 - James Snyder - ISBN 0-8109-1081-0
	Lots of pictures, kind of small, not so many in color, but plenty of
obscure artists.  Focus on Germany.

>From Van Eyck to Bruegel - Metropolitan Museum of Art - ISBN 0-8109-6528-3
	Just what it says.

Kathlene
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-Poster: Lavolta Press <lavolta@best.com>



Susan Fatemi wrote:

> -Poster: Susan Fatemi <susanf@netwiz.net>

> I hate to get into this copyright thing, but we've had to
> deal with it a lot lately at work (day job) on a collection
> of pre-20th c. images.

For one thing, the post mentioned also copying the detailed text describing the
images; which in the ebay listings I looked at, seemed to have been written by the
seller.


>
>   The scans in question may be the physical property of the
> owner,  but they can't be copyrighted if no "value" has been
> added to a 2-D image (i.e. not changed in any way. If you get
> creative with the Mona Lisa, it becomes *your* image!).
>  You can take an "expired" image, make a postcard and publish
> it. But if you haven't made any changes to the image, you still
> can't copyright it. (I believe there was a very good website published
> on
> H-costume a while back with a good discussion of these very issues)

For another thing  . . . in my experience scans of images seldom look exactly like,
or as good as, the original.  There are a great many changes that can be made,
including removing moire patterns (problems caused by rescreening), balancing
colors or gray tones, sharpening, redrawing lines, cropping edges, restoring
blurred or damaged or dirty areas of an old image, changing or adding backgrounds,
moving parts of the picture around; and many other potential changes.  Some changes
can be made either to the whole image or, by "masking off" (drawing a line closely
around) portions of  it and only altering those portions.  It can easily take a
couple of hours to do a relatively simple job of restoring an old image, and
probably no two restorers would do it exactly the same way.  There's a lot of other
stuff you can do too, in terms of special effects (like the "impressionist" filter
in my Corel Photopaint).

According to the  lawyer I consulted, changes to images are copyrightable.  (And in
fact, there are graphic artists who, if you hire them to work on your scans,  want
to claim copyright to the changes; so you should explicitly cover ownership of
rights in your contracts.) While I'm not saying everybody who posts images on the
net has changed or restored them, it's probably impossible for someone who has not
seen the original image to tell whether this has been done.

Furthermore, I don't know of any part of the copyright law that covers 2-Dness.  As
far as I know, photos of paintings are as copyrightable as photos of sculptures or
buildings or people.  If two different photographers take pictures of a painting,
each photographer owns the copyright to his/her own picture (though not to the
original painting).  A scan is essentially a photo.


>
>
>   Copyright was meant to protect the person who *created*
> the work. Or in the case of "work done for hire", eg. for
> a book or newspaper publisher, the copyright belongs to the
> publisher. FOR A FINITE AMOUNT OF TIME. Not forever.
> (This is how Dover stays in business)

Not exactly. Copyright was meant to protect the person who has *done creative
work*.  Copyright covers derivative works, such as translations, anthologies, and
other works created using the original work, as well as the original work itself.
This includes derivative works made from works in the public domain.

>
>   If the image is 100 years or so old (just to be on the safe
> side) and you take a photo of it, without adding any value,
> just a reproduction of the image, you may own the physical
> photo, but you don't own any right to the image.

Actually, as I understand it, you do own the rights to a photo you have taken
yourself, no matter what it is of. Unless of course you have sold or otherwise
transferred those rights.  In some cases you may need someone else's permission to
create/take the photo to begin with, or to publish it.

> If you
> put it up on the web, it would be almost impossible to
> claim copyright or prove where someone else got it.

First, I'd recommend that anyone who is at all interested in protecting their
copyrights to register them before publishing their materials on the web or
anywhere else.  Although US law protects works from the time of creation,
registration is a big help if there is any legal difficulty later on.

Second, I have seen a number of web postings (text and pictures) from several
published books.  Although I was not the publisher or author of these books, I was
easily able to recognize the  sources of the postings.

Third, the fact that someone might not notice you are violating their copyright
does not make such violation any more legal or ethical.


>
>   The one image I looked at the site in question is an
> etching. Therefore there were multiple copies to start with.
> Really hard to prove the provenance of your copy.

Unless it was restored or edited in some way.  I've spent many hours (in fact, many
months)  editing line drawings from printed publications.  I can certainly tell the
difference between the ones I edited and the originals--otherwise I would not have
bothered.


>
>
>   I'm not encouraging wholesale theft, or anything, it's
> just that copyright issues are only really proved *in court*.
> You sue, they sue, the lawyers win.

This is true of most legal issues. But it's a good reason to be careful about
violating other peoples' copyrights.  As I've said before--why not just ask people
if it's OK to use their iamges, text, whatever?

Fran

---------------------------------------------
Visit our web pages!
Books on historic costume and vintage clothes
http://www.best.com/~lavolta/index.htm
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http://www.best.com/~lavolta/dance/index.htm


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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Fri Oct  8 00:27:00 1999
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Date: Fri, 8 Oct 1999 01:40:20 EDT
Subject: Re: H-COST: Re: cocoon coat
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-Poster: Mayfair13a@aol.com

In a message dated 10/7/99 9:39:16 PM Pacific Daylight Time, 
costumrs@radiks.net writes:

<< 
 I believe she may be referring to the original pattern put out by Folkwear,
 the "Poiret Cocoon Coat", which was one of the Metropolitan Museum
 patterns.  The Met patterns are not being reprinted by Lark because of
 licensing issues with the museum.
 
 These also included the Algerian Suit and the Russian Cossack.
 
 Sandy
  >>

Yes, I am referring to the "Poiret Cocoon Coat".
I am sorry to hear that Lark will not be reproducing it.  I am still on the 
hunt.  Anybody out there that can help?

Hopefully,
Pasha
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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Fri Oct  8 00:46:23 1999
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Subject: Re: H-COST: re: The fall at the bottom of a Sari (was "Sari
  cotton thing")
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-Poster: Carolyn Kayta Barrows <kayta@slip.net>

>3. Kayta described a stiffener that makes the pleats fall correctly (it's
>not clear whether this is at the waist or hem),

>5. I've described (not well) a piece that runs the entire length of the hem
>giving weight and proper hang to the lighter, floaty saris.  It stops as the
>sari begins to move upward forming the shoulder cover & hanging piece w/ the
>pallou (the nifty woven design at the end).

Kayta here.  The stiffener is like a facing inside the hem portion, not on
the palu portion.  They sell these, ready to apply, in many colours at sari
stores.  They like to shelve them rolled up, by colour.

BTW, I see palu instead of pallou at the stores I frequent.  (That's the
fancy bit thrown over the shoulder.)  But I see both sari and saree used,
depending on the store.

>#4  I just don't believe anyone would add 3-4" of cheap, ugly cotton to the
>bottom of a nice sari, sorry.

Not cheap ugly cotton, carefully colour matched cotton, and it's on the
inside. 

Younger women often
>secure the CF pleats to the petticoat with a safety pin on the inside. Older
>ladies never do.

Some saris come sewn this way.  It's a recent thing.  Also, you pin the
palu to your bra strap on the back side of the shoulder, to prevent slippage.

>To wrap up (pun intended), sounds like there's lots of ways to wear 'em.

There really are.  Look inside the Folkwear pattern which includes the
choli and they say they're giving you two of the many ways to drape a sari.
 (I think that's where I saw it.)


Kayta
     ////.\\\
    ////-@@\\\
   ((((   7 (((
     |   -- ))))
     * )   (((((
  /----\   /---\

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-Poster: Lavolta Press <lavolta@best.com>




> Margo asks:
> > Here's a hypothetical question:  what if I had permission from an image's
> > owner to publish said image, say, a photograph, and put it on my website.
> > If the person who gave me the permission later sells the photograph,
> > does the new owner have the right to make me take it off the site?
>
> It depends!  Under the facts as you have given them, probably not.
>
> "Copyright" is a funny thing.  You can slice the whole copyright to
> something into infinitely small pieces (the right to adapt into a movie,
> the right to adapt into a song, the right to adapt into paint-by-number,
> the right of first publication, the right to print on t-shirts, the right
> to print on bedlinens, the right of publication in Czech-speaking
> countries only, the right to translate into Czech, etc., etc.)



>
>
> The owner of the right to publish has given you a tiny part of that right
> (the right to publish on your website).  Because they have given that
> right to you, they cannot now give it to someone else.

Actually, you can give someone "nonexclusive" rights to publish.  I think this
is the legal default, rather than exclusive rights, but it's safer to use the
word.  So you can tell as many people as you want that they have the
"nonexclusive" right to post your picture (or whatever) on their web sites. You
can also transfer "one-time" rights.  This is common with photos published in
magazines.  You can sell "one-time rights" for the same photo to as many
magazines as you wish.  I've seen one-time rights used sometimes with magazine
articles and stories.  But with articles  it is more usual to sell "first
serial rights" to one magazine (since this is a guarantee of first publication
in that media, you can only do it once) and "second serial rights" to as many
other magazines as you wish (there is no such thing as "third serial rights").
You can also, given the right contract negotiation, sell the same book to more
than one publisher.  This is most common if different editions are possible
(and saleable), but one publisher does not want to produce them all.  For
example one publisher only wants to publish in hardcover format, and the other
only wants to publish in softcover.

Basically, you want to be very specific about which parts of the copyright you
are transferring, transfer only the ones that really _need_ to be transferred
to that publisher or person,  and reserve the others for your own future use.


> So, the subsequent
> owner of the rights to the image doesn't own the right to give *you*
> permission (on not) to post on *your* website.  That means he or she can't
> make you take it down.

It depends on whether they actually _own_ the rights to the image, or were only
permitted by the owner to _use_ the image.  For example, suppose you create an
image, and you grant someone the nonexclusive right to post it on their web
site.  In that case, the web site poster has no right to either allow or forbid
anyone else to post the image.   If asked, they should refer the asker to you,
the actual owner of the rights.

On the other hand, suppose you sell "all rights" to the image to the person
with the web site.  In that case, they _are_ now the copyright owner, just as
if they had created the image.  They can grant or deny all further use of it as
they wish.  Or, in a more limited transfer, you could sell this person "all
rights to post on web sites."  In that case they would have control over future
web site posts, but you could still publish the image in other media (such as
books and magazines).

>
> But, in many cases, licenses to publish or reprint have limitations of one
> kind or another on them.  In many cases, a license to post something on a
> website will be limited in term.  So, if you had permission to post for
> one year, the owner of the image sold it, and the year ended, you would
> have to get permission to continue posting from the new owner-- who could
> then refuse permission.  And you would be forced to take it down.

Such limitations are a very good idea.  For example, if a magazine buys "first
serial rights" to your article, you should make sure your contract with them
gives these rights back to you if the magazine does not publish the article
within a specified period of time.  Otherwise, the magazine can control those
rights indefinitely (and by extension, your second serial rights, because the
first rights were never used) without ever publishing (if they only pay on
publication, without ever paying you).

Fran Grimble

---------------------------------------------
Visit our web pages!
Books on historic costume and vintage clothes
http://www.best.com/~lavolta/index.htm
Historic and vintage dance
http://www.best.com/~lavolta/dance/index.htm


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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Fri Oct  8 01:38:18 1999
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Date: Fri, 8 Oct 1999 02:00:26 -0500 (CDT)
From: Robin Netherton <robin@shell.nightowl.net>
To: h-costume@indra.com
Subject: Re: H-COST: Books
In-Reply-To: <199910080531.XAA20541@net.indra.com>
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-Poster: Robin Netherton <robin@shell.nightowl.net>


On Thu, 7 Oct 1999, K & J Hopkins wrote:

> The book I got is called 'Bruges and the Renaissance - Memling to Porobus'.

Sounds nice. How much is Borders asking for this?

> I am very ignorant about art, but learn a little more everyday.  I am bound
> and determined to read all these art books I have, after I read all of the
> costume books.  Anyway, what is a triptych?  Three panels?  It seems to me
> that they all center around a biblical event, so the center characters
> could be said to be allegorical, but to either side seems to be regular
> people (patrons?) praying or portraying a lesser character of the event. 
> Am I close?

Very close. A triptych is a three-panel painting; typically the outer
panels are half the size of the main panel, and hinged to it so that they
can close over the center panel. Then something decorative -- often
another painting -- is put on the backs of the wings, so that when
they come together they look nice.

A diptych is a two-panel painting, also typically hinged.

Most triptychs I've seen have a biblical event or a religious story (e.g. 
something from a saint's life) in the middle. The subjects of the wings
varies. What you describe is common -- patrons would pay to have
themselves painted into the paintings, and often that meant on the wings
(though sometimes you find the patrons in the center panel, praying amid
the sheep and cows at the Nativity or something). Often the wings show
only saints, perhaps the patron saints of the patrons, or saints related
to the center image, or the namesake saints of a church or religious order
that commissioned the painting. I have also seen triptychs in which the
wings are other parts of a story -- e.g. scenes from the life of Mary,
with the center panel being the Annunciation. I'm sure there are some
secular triptychs out there as well, but I can't think of any offhand. 

I have seen secular diptychs -- two portraits facing each other. More
often, though, one panel of the diptych is a Biblical scene (or something
like a portrait of Madonna and Child) and the other side is a portrait of
the patron, looking adoringly at the Biblical panel. 

> There are some where there is a herd of people praying!  I mean it, upwards
> of 20 people!

I've seen whole families depicted, or members of a religious order or
guild or other organization.

If you have questions on specific paintings, feel free to email me. I
suspect I have just about every painting in that book already in my own
library. (And for those who remember me complaining about my books being
boxed from my recent move -- I have a friend coming this weekend to help
me unpack them, hurrah!) What I don't have in books, I probably have in
slides -- I took over 300 slides of costume details in medieval art while
I was in Flanders, mostly in Bruges. Many of them are probably not
available in books. I wish I had taken more. Now I'm trying to pick up
images of Flemish art that is scattered elsewhere in the world. Spain is
full of Flemish art, and all I've done is Madrid...

--Robin


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Date: Fri, 08 Oct 1999 09:40:15 -0700
From: Dawn <dawn.wood1@virgin.net>
Organization: ages of elegance (http://www.ageofelegance.dabsol.co.uk)
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Subject: Re: H-COST: Patterns etc
References: <199909290800_MC2-86E6-EEE4@compuserve.com> <37F65003.68DE@virgin.net> <37FD4F10.9D674ED2@pcs.k12.mi.us>
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-Poster: Dawn <dawn.wood1@virgin.net>

Jean Zerby wrote:
> 
> -Poster: Jean Zerby <jzerby@scnc.pcs.k12.mi.us>
> 
> Do they have email/ web site?
> 
> Jean
> 
> Dawn wrote:
> 
> > -Poster: Dawn <dawn.wood1@virgin.net>
> >
> > Margaret Bolger wrote:
> > >
> > > -Poster: Margaret Bolger <Margaret_Bolger@compuserve.com>
> > >
> > > Apologies if you are already aware of this, but I thought it might be of
> > > interest!
> > >
> > > At my 'Antique Costume & Textiles Fair' last week, Lindy Pickard and Dave
> > > Rushworth were selling a whole load of patterns and handbooks - I think
> > > they have only recently started their business.
> > >
> > > Their 45 patterns cover a number of periods : Viking, Medieval, 16thC,
> > > English Civil War, 18thC, 19thC  -  and range from trousers, tunics,
> > > doublets, hose, breeches, frock coats etc  in a wide range of sizes.
> > >
> > > Their handbooks include : Medieval Women, medieval men, How to make
> > > Medieval Shoes, 17thC Women, 1798 French Revolutionary Uniform, 1812-15
> > > French Infantry Uniform.
> > > They also sell natural fibre textiles, buttons etc.
> > >
> > > Their business is called Petty Chapman and is based in Yorkshire UK.  Tele:
> > > +44 (0) 1484.512968
> > >
> > > If anyone wants more information and their address, please get in touch
> > > with me.  I also have a full list of the available patterns and handbooks.
> > >
> > > (I have no connection with them - just passing information along!)
> > >
> > > Margaret
> > > antique costume & textiles
> > > http://www.artizania.co.uk
> > Lindy and Dave have been re-enactors in England for a great many years
> > and are friends of mine they have done a great many periods between them
> > and also have a business selling cloth, patterns, buttons etc to
> > re-enactors over here.
> > the patterns aren't too bad although as with all patterns they are
> > generic and will not necessarily fit without altering to your own shape
> >
> > dawn
> >
> 
Not that I know of, they don't do computer stuff.

Dawn


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From: Jean Waddie <anne@montgomerie.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: H-COST: Crystal Pleated Gauze?
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-Poster: Jean Waddie <anne@montgomerie.demon.co.uk>

In message <3.0.5.32.19991004221718.008ac380@postoffice.worldnet.att.net
>, Kimberly Gilbert <kimberlygilbert@worldnet.att.net> writes
>
>
>Can anyone tell me what crystal pleated gauze is?  The new
>Simplicity Elizabethan pattern calls for it for the ruff,
>but I have no idea what it is (or where to obtain it).  Any
>help would be appreciated.
>
>Kimberly

I've met crystal organza - I had it for my wedding veil.  It wouldn't be
at all period, but it does have that very transparent, shiny look some
of the painters capture.  It's made from some kind of synthetic that
seems to have been engineered to have a high refractive index(?
scientists?) in each fibre, so it really glistens like crystal.  I can
imagine it looking fantastic on a carnival or masquerade costume, but if
it's for re-enactment you probably just want a suitable weight linen or
cotton.
-- 
Jean Waddie
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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Fri Oct  8 04:46:07 1999
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Date: Fri, 8 Oct 1999 10:56:31 +0100
To: h-costume@indra.com
From: Jean Waddie <anne@montgomerie.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: H-COST: Pattern Instruction sheets
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-Poster: Jean Waddie <anne@montgomerie.demon.co.uk>

In message <199910062030.NAA08294@apollo.directcon.net>, Margo Anderson
<margo@directcon.net> writes
>
>-Poster: Margo Anderson <margo@directcon.net>
>
>I have a question about patterns:  Do people really like those fold out
>instructions sheets that come with most patterns?
>
>The instruction sheets are good in that one can see a number of steps at
>once, but I always seem to misplace them, especially with a complex pattern
>with multiple sheets.  
>
>Would some other format, such as an 8 1/2" x 11" booklet, be preferable?  
>
>Margo
>
Absolutely, a booklet would be great.  Could you afford to do all the
instructions for each individual pattern separately?  I always end up
with the sheets the wrong way round, and I'm half way through "View 2"
when I think I'm doing "View 4"

-- 
Jean Waddie
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From: "Ella Lynoure Rajamaki" <lynoure@tuug.org>
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-Poster: "Ella Lynoure Rajamaki" <lynoure@tuug.org>

On 7 Oct 99, at 7:59, Margo Anderson wrote:

> Even Burda gave up and started including them a few
> years ago.  I know when I was working in a fabric store it was like pulling
> teeth to get people to use Burda because they would have to add them. 

As far as I know they do not do that here in Finland yet. I really like 
getting to choose myself how wide seam allowances I use and I 
hate the patterns that have seam allowances in them and no seam 
lines marked. 



--
-----------------------------*        lynoure@tuug.org      *
Ella Lynoure Rajamaki--------* http://www.tuug.org/~lynoure *
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Subject: Re: H-COST: Help w/Greenberg & Hammer
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-Poster: Mayfair13a@aol.com

Hi Folks,

I am trying to find the Greenberg sp? & Hammer web address.  Could someone 
help?

Thank You

Pasha
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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Fri Oct  8 06:39:51 1999
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From: KATHARINE WHISLER <KWHISLER@kentlaw.edu>
To: h-costume@indra.com
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Subject: H-COST: RE: Copyrights
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-Poster: KATHARINE WHISLER <KWHISLER@kentlaw.edu>

Fran Grimble commented on my post:
>
>> The owner of the right to publish has given you a tiny part of that
>> right (the right to publish on your website).  Because they have given
>> that right to you, they cannot now give it to someone else.
>
>Actually, you can give someone "nonexclusive" rights to publish.  I think
>this is the legal default, rather than exclusive rights, but it's safer
>to use the

Fran,
I apologize if I have confused you with my simplification.  It is 
irrelevant whether the person in the hypo was given an exclusive or 
non-exclusive right to publish something on a website. The transfer of a 
right, whether exclusive or non-exclusive, is still a transfer of a 
right.  Simple as that.  Obviously, you can transfer a right so that it 
comes back to you under certain conditions, but it is still the transfer 
of a right.  For example, if you give someone a non-exclusive right to 
publish something on their website, you can't give someone else the 
exclusive right to do so.

You might find it simpler if you think of it like this: imagine that you 
want to use your copyright to prevent *anyone* from reading the work you 
created, which you attempt to do by refusing to give anyone the right to 
publish it.  This will not do any good if prior to your decision you 
granted even a non-exclusive right to Doubleday to print just one copy of 
it.  They can print that one copy and lend it to all their friends, and 
the next thing you know, several people have read your work!  For that 
matter, if you sold all the rights that you still have to someone else who 
didn't ever want the work reprinted either, they still can't "take back" 
the right to print that one copy that you already gave away/sold.  (We'll 
leave assignment of rights terminations out of it, okay!) It's very like 
real property.  If you sell someone the couch out of your living room, and 
two days later you sell "all my living room furniture" to someone else, 
they don't get to go to the first person's house and take the couch!  It's 
theirs now.  A rights transfer is a rights transfer.

As much as I enjoy discussing these issues, I doubt the rest of the list 
wants to read the long course in copyright law.  However, I would welcome 
further discussion of these issues off-list.

--Katharine Whisler

P.S.  For those who *would* like more info on copyright law, I strongly 
recommend "The Copyright Book" by Stephen Fishman, published by Nolo Press.


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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Fri Oct  8 06:57:23 1999
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From: "Hope H. Dunlap" <hhdunlap@msn.com>
To: <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: RE: H-COST: Crystal Pleated Gauze?
Date: Fri, 8 Oct 1999 07:56:06 -0400
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-Poster: "Hope H. Dunlap" <hhdunlap@msn.com>

Silk organza (maybe by a different name) would have been
period for Elizabethan times, I believe.  Although cotton or
linen can be very spun and woven into very transparent
fabrics too.

Hope H. Dunlap



> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-h-costume@indra.com [mailto:owner-h-costume@indra.com]On
> Behalf Of Jean Waddie
> Sent: Friday, October 08, 1999 4:24 AM
> To: h-costume@indra.com
> Cc: h-costume-digest@indra.com
> Subject: Re: H-COST: Crystal Pleated Gauze?
>
>
>
> -Poster: Jean Waddie <anne@montgomerie.demon.co.uk>
>
> In message
> <3.0.5.32.19991004221718.008ac380@postoffice.worldnet.att.net
> >, Kimberly Gilbert <kimberlygilbert@worldnet.att.net> writes
> >
> >
> >Can anyone tell me what crystal pleated gauze is?  The new
> >Simplicity Elizabethan pattern calls for it for the ruff,
> >but I have no idea what it is (or where to obtain it).  Any
> >help would be appreciated.
> >
> >Kimberly
>
> I've met crystal organza - I had it for my wedding veil.  It
> wouldn't be
> at all period, but it does have that very transparent, shiny look some
> of the painters capture.  It's made from some kind of synthetic that
> seems to have been engineered to have a high refractive index(?
> scientists?) in each fibre, so it really glistens like crystal.  I can
> imagine it looking fantastic on a carnival or masquerade
> costume, but if
> it's for re-enactment you probably just want a suitable
> weight linen or
> cotton.
> --
> Jean Waddie
>


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From: "Hope H. Dunlap" <hhdunlap@msn.com>
To: <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: RE: H-COST: Found it
Date: Fri, 8 Oct 1999 08:09:21 -0400
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-Poster: "Hope H. Dunlap" <hhdunlap@msn.com>

I didn't write that one.  I believe those "fram airfilter"
headresses were real life headgear, even though van der
Weyden used them in two religious paintings paintings.  I
disagree with those people who think its purely allegorical.
Someone dismissed the 1570 de Heere travelogue watercolor of
the same thing on an Irish woman.  Don't know why.   I think
its pretty clear its a third example of the same style
"hat."  Turbans of all sorts were very common among women in
the low countries and Ireland then (1400's-1500's), though
they tended to be flatter and wider than those we associate
with the Middle East.

Hope H. Dunlap



> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-h-costume@indra.com
[mailto:owner-h-costume@indra.com]On
> Behalf Of Michelle
> Sent: Thursday, October 07, 1999 3:06 AM
> To: h-costume@indra.com
> Subject: Re: H-COST: Found it
>
>
>
> -Poster: "Michelle" <mandrake@mypad.com>
>
>
> Hope wrote:
> >> http://www.uvm.edu/~hag/sca/15th
> >> So we have two hats of this type. What does that prove?  Absolutely
> >> nothing!
> Cythia wrote:
> >*laugh*  I agree.  Since both ladies are in the religious
> categories, I
> >would still hesitate to use them for a regular ol' person.
> I *would* use
> >it for a masque or something like that.  :)
> I am writing:
>   I wonder if it is something that is pulled from biblical.
> Both portraits
> (I think) have to do with Christ. It could be that the artist
> used mostly
> the modern dresses, from his time, and biblicized it with the
> wrap style
> headwear from what historical representation he had access to.
> Michelle

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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Fri Oct  8 07:13:02 1999
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From: "K & J Hopkins" <khopkins@cyberhighway.net>
To: <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: H-COST: Books
Date: Fri, 8 Oct 1999 06:35:10 -0600
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-Poster: "K & J Hopkins" <khopkins@cyberhighway.net>

> > The book I got is called 'Bruges and the Renaissance - Memling to
Porobus'.
> 
> Sounds nice. How much is Borders asking for this?

10% off $54.00 or so.


>What you describe is common -- patrons would pay to have
> themselves painted into the paintings, and often that meant on the wings
> (though sometimes you find the patrons in the center panel, praying amid
> the sheep and cows at the Nativity or something). 

I have found two that have what looks like patrons portraying Mary
Magdalene at the base of the cross in crucifixion scenes.  It is
interesting how the patrons have such a distinctive look on their faces, I
guess because it was a real face and not something out of the artist's
imagination.

> If you have questions on specific paintings, feel free to email me. I
> suspect I have just about every painting in that book already in my own
> library. (And for those who remember me complaining about my books being
> boxed from my recent move -- I have a friend coming this weekend to help
> me unpack them, hurrah!) What I don't have in books, I probably have in
> slides -- I took over 300 slides of costume details in medieval art while
> I was in Flanders, mostly in Bruges. Many of them are probably not
> available in books. I wish I had taken more. Now I'm trying to pick up
> images of Flemish art that is scattered elsewhere in the world. Spain is
> full of Flemish art, and all I've done is Madrid...
> 
> --Robin

Well, for those of us unlucky enough not to live close enough to Robin (I
don't know why it took so long to get someone to help unpack, I would have
moved in!), this book might be a good resource.

I am putting Bruges on my list for cities to visit in the future.

Kathlene
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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Fri Oct  8 08:18:55 1999
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Date: Fri, 8 Oct 1999 08:31:54 -0500 (CDT)
To: h-costume@indra.com
Subject: Re: H-COST: Re: hoop skirt
In-Reply-To: <37FD7232.89468347@mediaone.net>
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-Poster: ches@io.com

Ya know, they still sell the wide twill tape that is in two strips with a
smaller strip perpendicular to each that you could use too. I went to the
hardware store once to get a 2 hours before the event cord to make a hoop
skirt for a niece and it worked. The cord is clear laytex covered steel
rope. I think the twill is for the wooden venitian blinds but i could be
wrong. :)

Sincerely,
F. Havas
ches@io.com

On Fri, 8 Oct 1999, Janice Dallas wrote:

> Date: Fri, 08 Oct 1999 00:25:22 -0400
> From: Janice Dallas <janicedals@mediaone.net>
> Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com
> To: h-costume@indra.com
> Subject: H-COST: Re: hoop skirt
> 
> 
> -Poster: Janice Dallas <janicedals@mediaone.net>
> 
> For really cheap, you have to make your own.  My first one was made from
> electricians "fish" tape hung on twill tapes with loops over the waist
> band for adjustments.  each hoop was covered in x-wide bias tape, so I
> could pin to it for positioning, then sew in place.  I didn't know of a
> source for steel tape at the time.  Only proble was fastening the ends
> together.  I used shrink tubing, but it's not the best answer.  Makes a
> very sturdy, but non- bendable hoop.  Next one was bought from Amazon
> Vinegar and Pickleing co. and the third from alteryears.  I also picked
> up a bridal petticoat from J.C. Penneys for occasions when a hoop was
> impossible (plane flights, 1840's dresses, etc.
> -- 
> Janice Dallas
> JaniceDals@MediaOne.net
> "Just so, the girl has beauty, virtue, wit..."
> 

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-Poster: Kat & Kent <kdyer@home.com>

-Poster: Kijee@aol.com
>
>     "In a Timely Fashion"

Or just Timely Fashion... and call it "TF" for short when we're raving
about them on the list!! <wink>

Kat
"gosh, you really should have tried the TF pattern first... they're
really the best ones out there!"
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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Fri Oct  8 08:50:31 1999
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Date: Fri, 8 Oct 1999 09:04:24 -0500 (CDT)
To: h-costume@indra.com
Subject: Re: H-COST: applying silver
In-Reply-To: <199910080410.VAA12794@apollo.directcon.net>
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-Poster: ches@io.com

Thanks and keep them coming! I will be sending her a the emails tonight so
that she can decided what she will do. She is going to use the trim on a
costume for a child. 

Sincerely,
F. Havas
ches@io.com

On Thu, 7 Oct 1999, Margo Anderson wrote:

> Date: Thu, 7 Oct 1999 21:10:12 -0700
> From: Margo Anderson <margo@directcon.net>
> Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com
> To: h-costume@indra.com
> Subject: Re: H-COST: applying silver
> 
> 
> -Poster: Margo Anderson <margo@directcon.net>
> 
> >What are your collective thoughts on this and what kind of spray paint would
> >she use, what kind of thread, what kind of silver leaf adhesive.....what
> >other better ideas do you all have short of having to purchase some of the
> >expensive stuff?
> >
> The first Renaissance court costume I ever made (can it really be 23 years
> ago?)  had a forepart trimmed with $.05 a yard cotton lace which I spray
> painted gold.  It looked really nice (unlike the rest of the costume).  Sort
> of a matte finish, antique gold look.  Most of the gold is rubbed off now,
> so your friend might want to think about using some sort of clear spray over
> the metallic.  On the other hand, she probably isn't looking for decades
> long durability!
> 
> Once I get this !@#$% business plan done, I'm going to take an afternoon to
> put a "youthful efforts" page on my websight, including this dress.  I kept
> it to teach me humility, but there are a few things on it, like that painted
> lace idea, that I'm still proud of.
> 
> Margo Anderson
> 
> "One Tough Costumer"
> http://www.directcon.net/wander/main.htm
> 
> 

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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Fri Oct  8 09:02:42 1999
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Date: Fri, 08 Oct 1999 09:24:41 -0500
From: Marc Carlson <marc-carlson@utulsa.edu>
Subject: Re: H-COST: Copyrights
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-Poster: Marc Carlson <marc-carlson@utulsa.edu>

<KATHARINE WHISLER <KWHISLER@kentlaw.edu>>
>> Here's a hypothetical question:  what if I had permission from an image's
>> owner to publish said image, say, a photograph, and put it on my website.
>> If the person who gave me the permission later sells the photograph,
>> does the new owner have the right to make me take it off the site?
>
>It depends!  Under the facts as you have given them, probably not.

This does not match my understanding of current copyright law. 

If the copyright owner gives you permission to do something, and then later
tells you "no, I don't want you to do that", you legally must stop whatever
you
are doing with it.  Period.  Certainly there are variations and loopholes 
to try and slip through, but essentially they have loaned you their property
(usually for a specific purpose), but it's still their property.

This is especially true when it comes to publication and distribution of their
property, as through a web site.  I have in my possession several really good
and informative articles and photographs that I would love to upload to my 
clothing and shoe websites, but I can not legally do so without the permission
of the copyright owner, and in several of these cases that permission has
been 
explicitly withheld (usually from reasons of it could interfere with their 
publication on a particular topic - a real concern in Academe; or simply
because
they don't want to distribute it in that fashion.  Why isn't really germaine,
they could be withheld because the moon was in the wrong house, and I'd
have to
accept it).

Marc

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Date: Fri, 08 Oct 1999 10:03:40 -0500
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From: "J,K,S&A Baird" <baird@rrnet.com>
Subject: H-COST: business name
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-Poster: "J,K,S&A Baird" <baird@rrnet.com>

I really like
Backward Glances
too, and just think of the lovely lady glancing over her shoulder at you on 
every pattern envelope...

Kim
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Date: Fri, 8 Oct 1999 10:14:53 -0500 (CDT)
From: Robin Netherton <robin@shell.nightowl.net>
To: h-costume@indra.com
Subject: RE: H-COST: Found it
In-Reply-To: <000301bf1187$943f5960$f10bfdd0@sharp-9070->
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-Poster: Robin Netherton <robin@shell.nightowl.net>


On Fri, 8 Oct 1999, Hope H. Dunlap wrote:

> I didn't write that one.  I believe those "fram airfilter"  headresses
> were real life headgear, even though van der Weyden used them in two
> religious paintings paintings.  I disagree with those people who think
> its purely allegorical.  Someone dismissed the 1570 de Heere travelogue
> watercolor of the same thing on an Irish woman.  Don't know why.

Just a guess, but maybe because it's from well over 100 years later and a
different country? I would be leery of linking two isolated hats over that
duration of time unless there was a mostly unbroken chain of similar
examples during the intervening years.

No opinion from me on the realism of the air-filter hat, not yet, but I am
very leery of taking any hat from Rogier van der Weyden at face value if
he used it on Magdalen. Rogier routinely used certain parts of the costume
to telegraph "foreign," "sainted," or "historical," and the hat was
probably his favorite device for this (and Magdalen was routinely the
favorite saint used by Flemish artists to be experimental in costume). 
Lacking evidence from other artworks *of his same time period* --
preferably Franco-Flemish, preferably in another medium -- I would not
automatically accept any Rogier Magdalen hat as realistic. 

--Robin

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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Fri Oct  8 10:38:30 1999
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Date: Fri, 08 Oct 1999 08:50:16 -0700
From: Merouda the True of Beaumaris <keltia@serv.net>
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-Poster: Merouda the True of Beaumaris <keltia@serv.net>

> > its purely allegorical.  Someone dismissed the 1570 de Heere travelogue
> > watercolor of the same thing on an Irish woman.  Don't know why.
>
> Just a guess, but maybe because it's from well over 100 years later and a
> different country? I would be leery of linking two isolated hats over that
> duration of time unless there was a mostly unbroken chain of similar
> examples during the intervening years.

Twas I who dismissed it.  I did specify my reasons.  I try not to dismiss out
of hand, honest.  But now I have a picture.  The above is one of the reasons I
stated but the main reason for me is that deHeere's watercolor doesn't look
like the same hat *to me*.  It resembles the same shape to a point but then
all resemblance stops.  If we are talking about the same Lucas de Heere lady
(there aren't too many, she is in red and yellow) it is at
http://www47.pair.com/lindo/Laterirl.htm  There are ear flaps for one thing.
And while there is obviously some linen wrapped, it isn't coiled from the
center out.  It is wrapped around a red hat of two levels, kind of plateaued
with some kind of tie holding the whole thing together.  To me, it looks
nothing like the Magdalen hat.

Assuming that this *is* the same picture by de Heere that was being
discussed.  If not, then nevermind.  ;->

Cynthia
--
Cynthia Long
Merouda the True of Beaumaris
Barony of Madrone
Kingdom of An Tir


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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Fri Oct  8 10:43:19 1999
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From: Carrie Veenstra <carrie@greateralchemy.net>
To: "'h-costume@indra.com'" <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: RE: H-COST: applying silver
Date: Fri, 8 Oct 1999 10:41:43 -0500
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-Poster: Carrie Veenstra <carrie@greateralchemy.net>


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Thanks and keep them coming! I will be sending her a the emails tonight so
that she can decided what she will do. She is going to use the trim on a
costume for a child. 

[Carrie Veenstra]  Depending on the openness of the lace,  she could brush 
on a metallic fabric paint, (the type that's supposed to be soft when finished - 
not dimentional, shiny or 'wet look')  probably with a paper towel in hand to blot 
any bits that get clogged up..  [ some of these are heat set, and would be 
more durable/washable than spray paint... tho I'd go with the quick and (not 
quite) dirty spray paint method if it's a halloween costume or something that 
doesn't need to be washed between wearings. 

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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Fri Oct  8 10:56:05 1999
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From: KATHLEEN.MAHER@asu.edu
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Date: Fri, 08 Oct 1999 09:08:04 -0700 (MST)
Subject: H-COST: Things to do in St. Louis
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-Poster: KATHLEEN.MAHER@asu.edu

Rob and I will be in St. Louis, Missouri from December 18-25.  We're
going there to visit family, but will have time to go places.
        Niether of us are terribly familiar with the area and when Rob asked
his brother-in-law what their was to do in St. Louis, the reply was "Not
much".  So I am appealing to the list for advice about what to do and where to
go.

Thanks,
Katie                        

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Date: Fri, 08 Oct 1999 09:07:46 -0700
From: Lavolta Press <lavolta@best.com>
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-Poster: Lavolta Press <lavolta@best.com>



Marc Carlson wrote:

> -Poster: Marc Carlson <marc-carlson@utulsa.edu>
>
> <KATHARINE WHISLER <KWHISLER@kentlaw.edu>>
> >> Here's a hypothetical question:  what if I had permission from an image's
> >> owner to publish said image, say, a photograph, and put it on my website.
> >> If the person who gave me the permission later sells the photograph,
> >> does the new owner have the right to make me take it off the site?
> >
> >It depends!  Under the facts as you have given them, probably not.
>
> This does not match my understanding of current copyright law.
>
> If the copyright owner gives you permission to do something, and then later
> tells you "no, I don't want you to do that", you legally must stop whatever
> you
> are doing with it.  Period.  Certainly there are variations and loopholes
> to try and slip through, but essentially they have loaned you their property
> (usually for a specific purpose), but it's still their property.

I think the confusion in this discussion comes from the fact that (a) the owner of
a piece of physical property such as a photograph is not necessarily the copyright
owner and (b) permission to use a piece of art (or text or whatever) does not
constitute copyright ownership of it.  It is true that generally speaking only the
copyright owner can decide what can or can't be done with the work.  However,
copyright can be transferred (sold, bequeathed, given away); but I believe the new
copyright owner can be bound by contractual conditions entered into by the
previous owner, for the length of that contract.  Also, of course, a person
photographed (the model, professional or not) has some rights over how their image
is used, even though they are not the photographer.


>
>
> This is especially true when it comes to publication and distribution of their
> property, as through a web site.  I have in my possession several really good
> and informative articles and photographs that I would love to upload to my
> clothing and shoe websites, but I can not legally do so without the permission
> of the copyright owner, and in several of these cases that permission has
> been
> explicitly withheld (usually from reasons of it could interfere with their
> publication on a particular topic - a real concern in Academe; or simply
> because
> they don't want to distribute it in that fashion.  Why isn't really germaine,
> they could be withheld because the moon was in the wrong house, and I'd
> have to
> accept it).
>
> Marc
>

This is true,

Fran

--
---------------------------------------------
Visit our web pages!
Books on historic costume and vintage clothes
http://www.best.com/~lavolta/index.htm
Historic and vintage dance
http://www.best.com/~lavolta/dance/index.htm


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-Poster: Lavolta Press <lavolta@best.com>



KATHARINE WHISLER wrote:

> -Poster: KATHARINE WHISLER <KWHISLER@kentlaw.edu>
>
> Fran Grimble commented on my post:
> >
> >> The owner of the right to publish has given you a tiny part of that
> >> right (the right to publish on your website).  Because they have given
> >> that right to you, they cannot now give it to someone else.
> >
> >Actually, you can give someone "nonexclusive" rights to publish.  I think
> >this is the legal default, rather than exclusive rights, but it's safer
> >to use the
>
> Fran,
> I apologize if I have confused you with my simplification.  It is
> irrelevant whether the person in the hypo was given an exclusive or
> non-exclusive right to publish something on a website. The transfer of a
> right, whether exclusive or non-exclusive, is still a transfer of a
> right.  Simple as that.  Obviously, you can transfer a right so that it
> comes back to you under certain conditions, but it is still the transfer
> of a right.  For example, if you give someone a non-exclusive right to
> publish something on their website, you can't give someone else the
> exclusive right to do so.

I'm not confused; I just thought other people might mistakenly think that they
can only transfer rights exclusively.  And that therefore granting one person,
for example, the right to reproduce the picture you created on their web site
might automatically mean you can't grant that right to anyone else
simultaneously.  You can; as long as you use that important word "nonexclusive"
in both cases.  Of course, yes, you can also have an exclusive right
transferred back to you under certain agreed-on conditions (such as after a
specified period of time).

Publishing requires an awareness of copyright issues, the web is a publication
medium, and so a great many people have suddenly become publishers.  Which is
why issues like this keep getting discussed.  If you are involved in the
transfer of copyrights (for example for web site use), whether you are
transferring your rights to someone else or acquiring theirs, you can't be too
aware of exactly what rights are being transferred.  Yes, I agree it's a good
idea to read a copyright book aimed at writers and publishers (rather than
lawyers); though I have yet to find a really good book specifically on digital
rights.

Fran Grimble


---------------------------------------------
Visit our web pages!
Books on historic costume and vintage clothes
http://www.best.com/~lavolta/index.htm
Historic and vintage dance
http://www.best.com/~lavolta/dance/index.htm


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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Fri Oct  8 11:11:17 1999
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Subject: Re: H-COST: Things to do in St. Louis
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-Poster: AnnBWass@aol.com

Missouri Historical Society, in Forest Park, has a good costume collection.  
I'm not sure how much is on display.  While there, check out the art museum, 
the zoo and the Jewel Box (a small botanical garden building.)
Shaw's Garden, a large botanical garden with a geodesic dome for tropical 
plants, is in south St. Louis.
There are some historic houses.  I'm not sure how active they are at the 
moment.  One is the Campbell House.

Fabric shopping:  Anatole's in downtown St. Louis.  (I don't remember the 
address, but I think it is on Washington, and you can find it in the phone 
book.)

I grew up in St. Louis and still get back from time to time.

Ann Wass
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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Fri Oct  8 11:42:39 1999
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From: "Design" <design@alincocostumes.com>
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Subject: H-COST: Date: Fri, 8 Oct 1999 11:49:40 -0600
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-Poster: "Design" <design@alincocostumes.com>

Can anyone direct me to pictures of traditional Spanish clothing from the
18th century?  I am especially looking for costume ideas for a Don Juan type
charater.

Thanks to any who can help,
Kevin Wasden

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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Fri Oct  8 12:14:08 1999
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-Poster: <lisaleon@hawaii.edu>

> > The book I got is called 'Bruges and the Renaissance - Memling to Porobus'.
> 
> Sounds nice. How much is Borders asking for this?

FWIW, it's also listed by Edward R. Hamilton, Bookseller
(http://www.hamiltonbook.com)--$42.00.

BRUGES AND THE RENAISSANCE: Memling to Pourbus 
Edited By Maximiliaan P.J. Martens 

Lavishly illustrated and wide-ranging study brings the Renaissance to
life, and explores the artistic development of the period, with a focus on
the spread of ideas from Italy to northern Europe. 

Hardbound, 300 illustrations, 250 in color. 319 pages, Published by Abrams 
Size(inches) 9 1/2x12. 
Item # 156132 
ISBN 0810963825 
Current Pub at $60.00 Your Price $42.00 

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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Fri Oct  8 14:06:47 1999
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Date: Fri, 08 Oct 1999 15:21:12 -0400
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-Poster: Janice Dallas <janicedals@mediaone.net>

I have a book that shows 70+ ways of draping a Sari!  It's "SARIS: An
Illustrated Guide to the Indian Art of Draping" by Chantal Boulanger. 
It shows all the different regional variations plus the "modern" ways. 
It's published by Shakti Press International, 33 Greyhound Road, London
W6 8NH, Great Britain.  Price: 20 pounds, US$30, Euro:29  
website:http://www.devi.net
I don't recall reading anything about a cotton facing, though she does
mention that some silks are difficult to keep tucked at the waist.  She
only mentions pins.
-- 
Janice Dallas
JaniceDals@MediaOne.net
"Just so, the girl has beauty, virtue, wit..."
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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Fri Oct  8 14:27:47 1999
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-Poster: Janice Dallas <janicedals@mediaone.net>

I'd check to see what the St.Louis Section of the International
Costumers Group  is up to.  They're a lot of fun.  Bruce and Nora Mai
are the leaders, last I knew.  Check their webpage for the group's
e-address.  They are nicknamed the S.L.U.T.S.
http://members.xoom.com/CasaMai/casamai/splashx.html


-- 
Janice Dallas
JaniceDals@MediaOne.net
"Just so, the girl has beauty, virtue, wit..."
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From: rio@austin.rr.com (StrangeGirl)
To: h-costume@indra.com
Subject: Re: H-COST: Help w/Greenberg & Hammer
Date: Fri, 08 Oct 1999 19:35:58 GMT
Organization: The Corner of my Desk
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-Poster: rio@austin.rr.com (StrangeGirl)

On Fri, 8 Oct 1999 07:27:19 EDT, the following was written in this
electric book by Mayfair13a@aol.com:

>I am trying to find the Greenberg sp? & Hammer web address.  Could someone 
>help?

They do not yet have one. When I called them to ask, I was told
sometime this coming spring, most likely. THey need to get that ENTIRE
catalog online, because they want to have a functional website (online
ordering was hinted).

Margery
"Do you have any files?"
"We're the government, of course we have files."
Millenium
{*to reply take spambegone from my reply-to address*}
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From: rio@austin.rr.com (StrangeGirl)
To: h-costume@indra.com
Subject: Re: H-COST: Crystal Pleated Gauze?
Date: Fri, 08 Oct 1999 19:39:36 GMT
Organization: The Corner of my Desk
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-Poster: rio@austin.rr.com (StrangeGirl)

On Fri, 8 Oct 1999 07:56:06 -0400, the following was written in this
electric book by "Hope H. Dunlap" <hhdunlap@msn.com>:

>Silk organza (maybe by a different name) would have been
>period for Elizabethan times, I believe.  Although cotton or
>linen can be very spun and woven into very transparent
>fabrics too.

And if you want a relatively inexpensive source for 100% silk organza,
try http://www.dharmatrading.com

Really. I ordered all the fabrics for my wedding dress from them, and
the quality is great, the prices are amazing and the customer service
is vastly superior.

If anyone is wondering, that wedding dress is for a wedding this
coming january, so it's a current recommendation.

Margery
"Do you have any files?"
"We're the government, of course we have files."
Millenium
{*to reply take spambegone from my reply-to address*}
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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Fri Oct  8 15:34:03 1999
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Date: Fri, 08 Oct 1999 13:49:40 -0700
From: Merouda the True of Beaumaris <keltia@serv.net>
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-Poster: Merouda the True of Beaumaris <keltia@serv.net>

That was discussing the dresses with pinned on sleeves?  I was
browsing Museums stuff on the web and came across this:

http://gallery.euroweb.hu/index1.html

Scroll down to the Passion Alterpiece.  Here is a gown where the gown
fabric is *far* more fantastic than the sleeves.  And you can see the
seams.  He doesn't paint the fabric as though there are seams but he
did draw in the seams themselves.  Now again, this is more religious
stuff, but I think the gowns were quite typical of the time.

Cynthia

--
Cynthia Long
Merouda the True of Beaumaris
Barony of Madrone
Kingdom of An Tir


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-Poster: ches@io.com

Try again on the URL.

Sincerely,
F. Havas
ches@io.com


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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Fri Oct  8 15:50:12 1999
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-Poster: Merouda the True of Beaumaris <keltia@serv.net>

> Try again on the URL.
>

http://gallery.euroweb.hu/index1.html

Ah, weird.  Darned frames.  The URL is correct but you have too:

Click on M in the left hand colum
Click on Memling
Click on "Paintings of a Religious Subject Matter"
Scroll all the way to the bottom
Click on Altars

Dang, shouldn't have to be that hard.

Cynthia
--
Cynthia Long
Merouda the True of Beaumaris
Barony of Madrone
Kingdom of An Tir


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From: "Genevieve de Courtanvaux" <gdc@airmail.net>
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-Poster: "Genevieve de Courtanvaux" <gdc@airmail.net>

Which artist.....this link only took me to the main url. 
Carol Ross
-----Original Message-----
From: Merouda the True of Beaumaris <keltia@serv.net>
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Date: Friday, October 08, 1999 3:52 PM
Subject: H-COST: was it this list?


>
>-Poster: Merouda the True of Beaumaris <keltia@serv.net>
>
>That was discussing the dresses with pinned on sleeves?  I was
>browsing Museums stuff on the web and came across this:
>
>http://gallery.euroweb.hu/index1.html
>
>Scroll down to the Passion Alterpiece.  Here is a gown where the gown
>fabric is *far* more fantastic than the sleeves.  And you can see the
>seams.  He doesn't paint the fabric as though there are seams but he
>did draw in the seams themselves.  Now again, this is more religious
>stuff, but I think the gowns were quite typical of the time.
>
>Cynthia
>
>--
>Cynthia Long
>Merouda the True of Beaumaris
>Barony of Madrone
>Kingdom of An Tir
>
>
>

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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Fri Oct  8 16:07:13 1999
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-Poster: ches@io.com

WOW!

For those of you that are still not able to find it:
http://gallery.euroweb.hu/art/m/memling/religion/altar/passion3.jpg

This is just beautiful, not only are there seams but the pattern is not
matched up and it shows her back! A rare back of the dress view is worth a
veiwing. We have so few good examples of what they did in the back.
 
Sincerely,
F. Havas
ches@io.com


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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Fri Oct  8 16:44:08 1999
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Subject: Re: H-COST: Things to do in St. Louis
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-Poster: KATHLEEN.MAHER@asu.edu



On Fri, 8 Oct 1999 AnnBWass@AOL.COM wrote:
> 
> -Poster: AnnBWass@aol.com
> 
> Missouri Historical Society, in Forest Park, has a good costume collection.  
> I'm not sure how much is on display. 

	Is it possible to make an appointment to view the stuff in the  
collection that is not on display?
> 
> Fabric shopping:  Anatole's in downtown St. Louis.  (I don't remember the 
> address, but I think it is on Washington, and you can find it in the phone 
> book.)

	What kind of stuff do they carry?

Thanks for all the suggestions!
Katie

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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Fri Oct  8 16:44:11 1999
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Date: Fri, 08 Oct 1999 16:57:23 -0500
To: h-costume@indra.com
From: "J,K,S&A Baird" <baird@rrnet.com>
Subject: Re: H-COST: Things to do in St. Louis
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-Poster: "J,K,S&A Baird" <baird@rrnet.com>

OK, I know it's obvious, but you really must see the Gateway Arch. Allow 
time for watching the movie and riding to the top. It's also impressive at 
night (although not open).

Look for night life in the area near the arch, in old warehouses or on 
riverboats.

And if you like Italian food (who doesn't) find some great restaurants on 
The Hill in south St. Louis.

They've converted the old union train station into shops, if you like that 
kind of thing. It's worth the trip there for the Chinese restaurant inside. 
Can't remember the name, but try the sizzling rice soup and pot stickers there.

And the Art Museum, in Forest Park, is always worth a visit.
Kim

At 09:08 AM 10/08/1999 -0700, you wrote:

>-Poster: KATHLEEN.MAHER@asu.edu
>
>Rob and I will be in St. Louis, Missouri from December 18-25.  We're
>going there to visit family, but will have time to go places.
>         Niether of us are terribly familiar with the area and when Rob asked
>his brother-in-law what their was to do in St. Louis, the reply was "Not
>much".  So I am appealing to the list for advice about what to do and where to
>go.
>
>Thanks,
>Katie

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Date: Fri, 8 Oct 1999 18:00:44 EDT
Subject: Re: H-COST: Caftan/Simar/Italian Renaissance
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-Poster: Appin1@aol.com

I believe ther term is "chamarre."

Kathleen Norvell
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-Poster: Merouda the True of Beaumaris <keltia@serv.net>

> For those of you that are still not able to find it:
> http://gallery.euroweb.hu/art/m/memling/religion/altar/passion3.jpg
>
> This is just beautiful, not only are there seams but the pattern is not
> matched up and it shows her back!

I missed the pattern un-match along the sides.  doh!  I was looking for sleeve
construction so carefully that I missed that entirely!  *Laugh*

Cynthia
--
Cynthia Long
Merouda the True of Beaumaris
Barony of Madrone
Kingdom of An Tir


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Date: Fri, 8 Oct 1999 18:36:02 EDT
Subject: Re: H-COST: FYI--cheap velveteen!
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-Poster: Appin1@aol.com

I have seen period Italian silk velvet (there are a couple of samples of 
ecclesiastical garb at The Cloisters in NYC). It is very fine and drapes 
beautifully. I have also seen denser period velvet (I don't know the fiber 
content) that looks very much like modern velveteen. It could have been 
interfaced & lined to a fare-thee-well to make it hang differently, but I 
couldn't tell since it was under glass. It did not have the sheen the silk 
velvet had, so perhaps it was a combination of fibers.

I guess it depends on what you want to make.

Kathleen Norvell
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Message-ID: <00f601bf11eb$f03a42c0$0f5dadc7@bchamber>
From: "Beth" <bchamber@suffolk.lib.ny.us>
To: <h-costume@indra.com>
References: <199910071401.IAA15394@net.indra.com> <37FCE97C.9E4196B1@home.com>
Subject: Re: H-COST: RE:Cleaning Machines 
Date: Fri, 8 Oct 1999 20:19:20 -0400
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-Poster: "Beth" <bchamber@suffolk.lib.ny.us>

>
> One of the things I do is keep a can of compressed air by the machine so
> that every time I change the bobbin I remember to clean out the
> machine.  It's easy to just 'spritz' the bobbin compartment before you
> put the bobbin back in.

Back when the canned air was first really "big" a sewing machine repairman
 a good one) told me never to use it. Canned air would push a certain amount
of lint & dirt deeper into the machine, eventually causing more problems. I
use the same small vacuum attachments as I use for my computer to clean my
machines.

Beth

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Message-ID: <02e801bf11ef$117501c0$0f5dadc7@bchamber>
From: "Beth" <bchamber@suffolk.lib.ny.us>
To: <h-costume@indra.com>
References: <199910052215.QAA14215@net.indra.com> <4.1.19991005143131.00bf0290@pop.slip.net>
Subject: Re: H-COST: Obscure machine: "Domestic" brand "Gaiety" model
Date: Fri, 8 Oct 1999 20:41:45 -0400
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-Poster: "Beth" <bchamber@suffolk.lib.ny.us>

>
> >Has anyone ever heard of this machine ("Gaiety" is a decal on the
> >machine, "Domestic" is a metal logo)?  It's a dumpster-dive rescuee, and
> >seems to be stuck - stitch selector on a fancy stitch, roto thingie
> >won't turn :-(  It looks about the same vintage as my Singer 403 or
> >maybe later - but still all-metal.  Anyone out there ever heard of it,
> >or have any clues on what's wrong with it?

My mother and I have managed to fix (i.e.. unfreeze) several machines. If
you haven't already - clean it. Vacuum every inch of it that you can reach,
wipe it down with a damp cloth,  then oil/lubricate all the traditional
areas. Is it frozen with the needle up or down? If it is down it may be
caught on something. Either way - take it out, it will be easier and safer
to work with. Take out the bobbin case and check for any tangled threads.
Check the whole bobbin case assembly for small bits of stuck thread also. If
something seems really frozen - not bent or jammed but just won't move- try
penetrating oil. Check your local library for repair books. All the old
mechanical machines shared very similar part/construction techniques so the
repair book doesn't really need to be model specific. I "think" this is the
one we used once or twice:
Author Hutchison, Howard.
Title The complete handbook of sewing machine repair
Edition 1st ed.
Publisher Blue Ridge Summit, Pa. : Tab Books, c1980.

Beth

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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Fri Oct  8 19:51:08 1999
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Date: Thu, 7 Oct 1999 23:13:10 -0400
Subject: H-COST: Re: Name My Business
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-Poster: Elizabeth Cummins <henninlady@juno.com>

How about "Tailored for Time"?

Elizabeth Cummins

___________________________________________________________________
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Subject: Re: H-COST: Dyeing quesion
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-Poster: Joan M Jurancich <joanj@quiknet.com>

At 12:53 PM 10/7/99 -0500, Emma Elizabeth Lehman wrote:
>
>I have a piece of fabric that I got at a thrift store cheap which I have
>been intending to use on my first attempt at Tudor garb.  I have, however,
>decided that the color is inappropriate, and furthermore, I don't like it.
>The fabric itself is a nice, heavy, drapy satin-weave cotton, kelly green
>on one side and a mottled turquoise/kelly teal-ish color on the other.  
>
>What I would like to know is what color I should over dye it for something
>more appropriate, and what kind of dye is reasonably easy to use for
>someone without a kitchen or washer of her own (ie: living in a dorm).
>
>Many thanks in advance for any help or advice
>
>Emma

Well, which color to use depends upon what color you are hoping to achieve
<g>. If you want to get away from greens, you would need to add red to it
until you reach a nice rich brown. Or if you want a deeper green, you add
black to it. 

Another way to proceed is to first strip the color out of the cloth with
something like the color stripper from RIT. You then have a paler cloth to
start from.

I have found an Artist's Color Wheel to be a valuable tool when I'm trying
to decide what dye colors to use.

Joan Jurancich
Sacramento, CA
joanj@quiknet.com

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Subject: Re: H-COST: RE:Cleaning Machines 
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-Poster: Margo Anderson <margo@directcon.net>


>Back when the canned air was first really "big" a sewing machine repairman
> a good one) told me never to use it. Canned air would push a certain amount
>of lint & dirt deeper into the machine, eventually causing more problems. I
>use the same small vacuum attachments as I use for my computer to clean my
>machines.
>

I was at Office Max today and saw what I thought at first wqs a glue gun.
It turned out to be a miniature, hand held vaccuum cleaner, with several
different attachments,  all for $10.  Perfect for sewing machines.

Margo

"One Tough Costumer"
http://www.directcon.net/wander/main.htm

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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Fri Oct  8 22:40:09 1999
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Date: Fri, 08 Oct 1999 20:51:17 -0700
From: Susan Fatemi <susanf@netwiz.net>
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Subject: Re: H-COST: Chinese headscarves for men?
References: <6235FD3701AA3400@c2smtp.kentlaw.edu>
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-Poster: Susan Fatemi <susanf@netwiz.net>

KATHARINE WHISLER wrote:
> 
> -Poster: KATHARINE WHISLER <KWHISLER@kentlaw.edu>
> 
> Recently, the man in my life asked me to make him an early (Tang
> Dynasty, say) costume to wear to an SCA event.  After looking at a bunch
> of art books, I think I have it covered, but there is one thing that still
> really mystifies me.

Lucky you to work on such an interesting period. I didn't know
China was now part of SCA land. Great! Will you have pictures
when it's done??  (Sorry I don't know how the "turbans" are tied)


Susan F.

-- 
Oh Noh! Kimonos!
susanf@netwiz.net
http://www.netwiz.net/~susanf
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Date: Fri, 08 Oct 1999 23:09:34 -0700
To: h-costume@indra.com
From: "Carol J. Bell Cannon" <cjcannon@greymists.com>
Subject: Re: H-COST: Re: Name My Business
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-Poster: "Carol J. Bell Cannon" <cjcannon@greymists.com>

At 11:13 PM 10/07/1999 -0400, you wrote: -Poster: Elizabeth Cummins
<henninlady@juno.com>
>How about "Tailored for Time"? Elizabeth Cummins
                 Brava!
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Date: Sat, 09 Oct 1999 08:49:06 -0700
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-Poster: Russell Hedges <russellh@home.com>



	I have to post on this subject.  The first hoop skirt I ever saw in
person went "SHOOP SHOOP" as she walked.

	Not just a Hula Hoop, but a Shoop Shoop Hula Hoop.

	Does anyone know what a "POOF" is?  Hint, it's a piece of furniture.

	Russell Hedges
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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Sat Oct  9 11:07:36 1999
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-Poster: Margo Anderson <margo@directcon.net>


>
>	Does anyone know what a "POOF" is?  Hint, it's a piece of furniture.
>
>Try spelling it "pouf".  It's an overstuffed, usually round and "pouffy"
hassock thing.

Margo

"One Tough Costumer"
http://www.directcon.net/wander/main.htm

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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Sat Oct  9 11:33:09 1999
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	 Sat, 9 Oct 1999 09:44:56 -0700
From: "Hope H. Dunlap" <hhdunlap@msn.com>
To: <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: H-COST: RE: Don Juan Style Spanish Costume
Date: Sat, 9 Oct 1999 12:53:23 -0400
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-Poster: "Hope H. Dunlap" <hhdunlap@msn.com>

There are a few paragraphs in the Countess of Wilton's 1846
The Book of Costume, or
Annals of Fashion, ed. by RLShep, regarding the costume of
the Spaniard and a line drawing:

"The most important part of the Spaniard's costume is the
capa or cloak ...  that worn by the higher classes is of
blue or black cloth, faced with rich black silk velvet, and
frequently lined throughout with taffety ... not a winter
garment alone; in the hottest days of summer it is often
worn ...

"The rest of the costume consists of a short round jacket,
with an upright collar.  It is sometimes of dyed sheepskin
with the wool outwards, but more commonly of coarse cloth or
velvet, brown, green, blue or black--adorned with tags on
the breasts, trimmed with braid and velvet, lined with silk
...often has silk epaulettes... Two handkercheifs are thrust
into small side pockets, red and white, or red and yellow,
with their ends depending (sic).

"The waistcoat on fete-days is generally bright silk, gaily
figured, often with representations of bullfights.  It is
adorned with basket-buttons, and trimmed with braid like the
jacket, and is worn very open to display the well-worked
shirt, the collars of which are invariably turned down,
leaving the throat exposed.  Round the neck is worn a silk
scarf, tied in a slip knot, descending on the bosom.  It is
generally crimson, pink, or canary cooed, but ought always
to correspond in hue to the lineing of the jacket, and with
the sash or faga, which is a narrow strip of silk or
worsted, girded round the waist with several turns.  One end
is often sewn up into a pouch, which serves as a purse, and
bag for tobacco.  A large clasp knife is a never-failing
intimate of the faga.

"Tight breeches of blue, green, or chocolate plush, or
punto, reach below the knee, where they are tied with cords,
terminating in tassels of the same color.  The outer seams
are adorned with rows of dangling basket-buttons, plaited or
gilt, and sometimes with broad stripes of dark braid.  The
legs are cased in splatterdashes or botines of calf-skin,
fastened with leather loops on the outer sides of the legs,
bur left open at the calf, so as always to give the
appearance of a full and handsome limb.  They are made with
the rough side outwards--and are carefully worked on the
front and back with flowers of darker leather ... sometimes
stittched with silk of various colors.

"The shoes (zapatos) are partially covered by the botines,
are of similar leather, so that together they appear like
high boots .... and rarely of black tanned leather studded
with brass tacks...

"Over the head is a bright silk handkercheif, folded
diagonally, and tied with a knot behind ... over this is a
broad -brimmed sugarloaf hat of black felt."

I believe she is describing the plains Spaniard here, as she
goes on to describe another costume for the men of the
mountainous regions.

Hope H. Dunlap



> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-h-costume@indra.com
[mailto:owner-h-costume@indra.com]On
> Behalf Of Design
> Sent: Friday, October 08, 1999 12:54 PM
> To: h-costume@indra.com
> Subject: H-COST: Date: Fri, 8 Oct 1999 11:49:40 -0600
>
>
>
> -Poster: "Design" <design@alincocostumes.com>
>
> Can anyone direct me to pictures of traditional Spanish
> clothing from the
> 18th century?  I am especially looking for costume ideas
for
> a Don Juan type
> charater.
>
> Thanks to any who can help,
> Kevin Wasden

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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Sat Oct  9 11:34:31 1999
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Date: Sat, 09 Oct 1999 09:50:50 -0700
Subject: Re: H-COST: Re: hoop skirt
From: "R.L. Shep" <rlshep@home.com>
To: h-costume@indra.com
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-Poster: "R.L. Shep" <rlshep@home.com>

Depends where you are.  Pouf in Europe means gay.   
~!~ R.L.Shep
http://www.rlshep.com

----------
>From: Margo Anderson <margo@directcon.net>
>To: h-costume@indra.com
>Subject: Re: H-COST: Re: hoop skirt
>Date: Sat, Oct 9, 1999, 9:17 AM
>

>
>-Poster: Margo Anderson <margo@directcon.net>
>
>
>>
>> Does anyone know what a "POOF" is?  Hint, it's a piece of furniture.
>>
>>Try spelling it "pouf".  It's an overstuffed, usually round and "pouffy"
>hassock thing.
>
>Margo
>
>"One Tough Costumer"
>http://www.directcon.net/wander/main.htm
>


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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Sat Oct  9 11:35:27 1999
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Subject: Re: H-COST: Re: hoop skirt
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-Poster: Cheryldee@aol.com

In a message dated 10/9/99 10:00:54 AM Mountain Daylight Time, 
russellh@home.com writes:

<< Does anyone know what a "POOF" is?  Hint, it's a piece of furniture. >>
It looks like a giant overstuffed ottoman, generally circular in form for 
all-around seating in a central area.  Often found in hotel lobbies in 
generations gone by.  Used often in period plays with hotel interiors.  
Cheryl Odom
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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Sat Oct  9 11:50:07 1999
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From: "Hope H. Dunlap" <hhdunlap@msn.com>
To: <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: RE: H-COST: Found it
Date: Sat, 9 Oct 1999 13:09:48 -0400
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-Poster: "Hope H. Dunlap" <hhdunlap@msn.com>

There are two paintings of differentwomen by de Heere with
the hat under discussion of the 1560-1570 period, can be
seen, tho fuzzy, at http://www.reconstructinghistory.com.
That linen strip apprears to be wound around the head after
the woman has donned a red pillow-case.  After winding, the
red top flops down on the windings to cover the head, and
the bottom flaps out below. Keeps the weather off the top of
her head, for sure.  Could be done differently, this is just
a guess.  The topper and the flaps are different than the
van der Weyden Magdalene, to be sure, but the windings sure
do look awfully similar, particularly when viewed in greater
detail in books like Dunbar's.  It doesn't "prove" anything,
but it does cast doubt on the rather broad statement
inferring the winding thing is so ridiculous that nobody
would have worn it attitude.  Irish trade with the low
countries at that time was equal to that of England.  Many
elements of the costumes are similar, including the cut of
the Shinrone gown.

To switch gears slightly, has anyone else seen Aretha
Franklin in that whacky hat on the magazine cover this week?
Sort of a gilt cardboard version of the halo.  Does rather
suggest humans will wear anything when they are trying to
set style.  Apologies to a great and beloved lady ..... but
she has worn better garb, in my opinion!

Hope H. Dunlap



> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-h-costume@indra.com
[mailto:owner-h-costume@indra.com]On
> Behalf Of Merouda the True of Beaumaris
> Sent: Friday, October 08, 1999 11:50 AM
> To: h-costume@indra.com
> Subject: Re: H-COST: Found it
>
>
>
> -Poster: Merouda the True of Beaumaris <keltia@serv.net>
>
> > > its purely allegorical.  Someone dismissed the 1570 de
> Heere travelogue
> > > watercolor of the same thing on an Irish woman.  Don't
know why.
> >
> > Just a guess, but maybe because it's from well over 100
> years later and a
> > different country? I would be leery of linking two
isolated
> hats over that
> > duration of time unless there was a mostly unbroken
chain of similar
> > examples during the intervening years.
>
> Twas I who dismissed it.  I did specify my reasons.  I try
> not to dismiss out
> of hand, honest.  But now I have a picture.  The above is
one
> of the reasons I
> stated but the main reason for me is that deHeere's
> watercolor doesn't look
> like the same hat *to me*.  It resembles the same shape to
a
> point but then
> all resemblance stops.  If we are talking about the same
> Lucas de Heere lady
> (there aren't too many, she is in red and yellow) it is at
> http://www47.pair.com/lindo/Laterirl.htm  There are ear
flaps
> for one thing.
> And while there is obviously some linen wrapped, it isn't
> coiled from the
> center out.  It is wrapped around a red hat of two levels,
> kind of plateaued
> with some kind of tie holding the whole thing together.
To
> me, it looks
> nothing like the Magdalen hat.
>
> Assuming that this *is* the same picture by de Heere that
was being
> discussed.  If not, then nevermind.  ;->
>
> Cynthia
> --
> Cynthia Long
> Merouda the True of Beaumaris
> Barony of Madrone
> Kingdom of An Tir


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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Sat Oct  9 12:15:45 1999
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From: "Michelle" <mandrake@mypad.com>
To: <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: H-COST: copyrights
Date: Sat, 9 Oct 1999 10:38:40 -0700
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-Poster: "Michelle" <mandrake@mypad.com>



Wouldn't it work somewhat like a book.  The previous owner gives permission,
the picture gets  published in a book. The new owner doesn't like it, but
can't  make the already printed and sold books no longer exist.  I know that
a site isn't that permanent, but how would you control what was already
released?
Michelle
>-Poster: pulliam@acadia.net (Deborah Pulliam)
>
><<If the person who gave me the permission later sells the photograph,
does
>the new owner have the right to make me take it off the site?>>
>
>Probably. Reproduction rights usually -- not always -- go with the sale
>(major exception is when the person selling the work created it. In other
>words, when you buy an original painting or work of art from the artist,
>you normally don't automatically get the reproduction rights.)
>
>
>Deborah

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From: Russell Hedges <russellh@home.com>
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-Poster: Russell Hedges <russellh@home.com>



Margo Anderson wrote:
> 

<snip>

> >Try spelling it "pouf".  It's an overstuffed, usually round and "pouffy"
> hassock thing.
> 
> Margo
> 
> "One Tough Costumer"
>

Oh, that was fast!  And I knew I was spelling it wrong, I had no clue. 
Thank you!

I bring it up 'cause my Grandmother made one, from an old table, and it
has been in the family ever since.  My sister has it now, she took a
course in making and repairing furniture.  Fixed it up like new.

A pouf is for sitting on when wearing a hoop skirt.

Or so I have been told.

Russell Hedges
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-Poster: Margo Anderson <margo@directcon.net>

At 09:50 AM 10/09/1999 -0700, you wrote:
>
>-Poster: "R.L. Shep" <rlshep@home.com>
>
>Depends where you are.  Pouf in Europe means gay.   
>~!~ R.L.Shep


Just goes to show that these thngs vary:  I thought the spelling "poof",
short for "poofter", meant gay, and the overstuffed hassock was a "pouf".
Of course,  some gay men I know are round and overstuffed....oops, I had
better stop here.  

Wildly off topic,

Margo

"One Tough Costumer"
http://www.directcon.net/wander/main.htm

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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Sat Oct  9 12:23:45 1999
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From: "Michelle" <mandrake@mypad.com>
To: <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: H-COST: hoop skirts
Date: Sat, 9 Oct 1999 10:46:35 -0700
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-Poster: "Michelle" <mandrake@mypad.com>




>
>-Poster: Jean Zerby <jzerby@scnc.pcs.k12.mi.us>
>Can anyone give me info for getting a hoop skirt/ (As cheap as possible,
goes
>w/o saying )
>
>Thanks
>
>Raella

There is a business here in Fresno, Ca that makes and sells them at $65
each.  Can anyone get them cheaper?
Michelle

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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Sat Oct  9 12:30:03 1999
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From: "Hope H. Dunlap" <hhdunlap@msn.com>
To: <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: H-COST: Don Juan Style Costume
Date: Sat, 9 Oct 1999 13:51:19 -0400
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-Poster: "Hope H. Dunlap" <hhdunlap@msn.com>


There are a number of Spanish portrait paintings of the
1700's here, which show the male Spanish costumes of the
period beautifully:
http://sunsite.auc.dk/cgfa/spanish.htm#sp17.    There is a
range of male costume depicted here, from very conservative
to flamboyant, for you to pick and choose from.  Countess of
Wilton's description, though written in 1846, would have
applied to many features of 18th Century costume, depending
on the age and rank of the male being depicted. Ramón
Bayeu's "Boy with Guitar," 1786, oil on canvas, Museo del
Prado, Madrid shows those silken epaulettes she mentions,
for instance. The frock coat is much in evidence, but with
heavily embroidered velvet turn-backs (revers and cuffs) and
vest.  The round jacket is shown too.


Hope H. Dunlap



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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Sat Oct  9 12:36:16 1999
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-Poster: Lavolta Press <lavolta@best.com>



Michelle wrote:

> -Poster: "Michelle" <mandrake@mypad.com>
>
> Wouldn't it work somewhat like a book.  The previous owner gives permission,
> the picture gets  published in a book. The new owner doesn't like it, but
> can't  make the already printed and sold books no longer exist.  I know that
> a site isn't that permanent, but how would you control what was already
> released?
> Michelle

First, as I understand it, what a second copyright owner "liked" would not
really be the issue, but whether the agreement for use made with the previous
copyright owner also bound the second owner.  Second, material can easily be
removed from a web site, and a copyright owner who discovered his/her work
illegally published on a web site could ask for its removal.  Third, a copyright
owner who discovered his/her work illegally published could ask for compensatory
payment to be made for its use, and/or sue for such payment.

Fran Grimble


---------------------------------------------
Visit our web pages!
Books on historic costume and vintage clothes
http://www.best.com/~lavolta/index.htm
Historic and vintage dance
http://www.best.com/~lavolta/dance/index.htm


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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Sat Oct  9 13:08:57 1999
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From: Dawn <dawn.wood1@virgin.net>
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-Poster: Dawn <dawn.wood1@virgin.net>

R.L. Shep wrote:
> 
> -Poster: "R.L. Shep" <rlshep@home.com>
> 
> Depends where you are.  Pouf in Europe means gay.
> ~!~ R.L.Shep
> http://www.rlshep.com
> 
> ----------
> >No that one is spelt poof

Dawn


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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Sat Oct  9 13:27:33 1999
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From: "Hope H. Dunlap" <hhdunlap@msn.com>
To: <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: H-COST: Don Juan Style Spanish Costume
Date: Sat, 9 Oct 1999 14:49:02 -0400
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-Poster: "Hope H. Dunlap" <hhdunlap@msn.com>

http://www2.iinet.com/art/artists/major/g/goya.htm shows 46
images from Goya, many of which are from the 18th Century.
His style can be quite loose, making details sometimes hard
to pick out, but the unique Spanish sillouettes and colors
are all there!

Usining the painters names from the sunsite index I
referenced earlier, you can do a search on
http://www.metacrawler.com, the master search engine, for
additional paintings by Spanish artists of the 18th Century.

Hpe H. Dunlap




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From: The Purple Elephant <csmart@physics.adelaide.edu.au>
To: h-costume@indra.com
Subject: Re: H-COST: Re: hoop skirt
In-Reply-To: <37FF79A8.5FE584E@home.com>
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-Poster: The Purple Elephant <csmart@physics.adelaide.edu.au>

On Sat, 9 Oct 1999, Russell Hedges wrote:

> 
> > >Try spelling it "pouf".  It's an overstuffed, usually round and "pouffy"
> > hassock thing.
> > 
> > Margo
> > 
> > "One Tough Costumer"
> >
> 
> Oh, that was fast!  And I knew I was spelling it wrong, I had no clue. 
> Thank you!
> 
> I bring it up 'cause my Grandmother made one, from an old table, and it
> has been in the family ever since.  My sister has it now, she took a
> course in making and repairing furniture.  Fixed it up like new.
> 
> A pouf is for sitting on when wearing a hoop skirt.
> 
> Or so I have been told.
> 
I've always been under the impression that they were a kind of footstool.
(ie like a giant cushion for putting your feet on) Though I guess you
could put your backside on one too. The word is only used with the 'gay'
connoitation in this country so far as I'm aware, but my mother 
delights in calling her 'Feetseat' a pouf 'cos it embarrasses my brothers 
*grin*
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Claire F. Clarke       "What is this world if, full of care, 
Physicist, writer,     We have no time to stand and stare?"
and non environmentally                     Robert Louis Stevenson
friendly substance.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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-Poster: Gaelscot@aol.com



Wow! Thanks to whoever posted that information about the Memling altarpiece 
picture. What a great thing to see! And that cotehardie (or kirtle, or 
whatever we're calling it today) fits just the way mine do! But I would never 
have imagined that paisley fabric. Pretty great.

Another picture on the same page, the central panel of the Donne Triptych, 
shows a woman on the right hand side of the picture with a plain green gown 
and brocade pinned-on sleeves, apparently meant to be worn without another 
dress on top. It's a lovely picture with quite a few nice gowns -- and all 
the women have "super model" type figures, too, rather than the shorter and 
rounder build I tend to think of as medieval.

When I have more time, I plan to check out the rest of the Memling pix too!

Gail Finke

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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Sat Oct  9 19:30:54 1999
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From: "Penny Ladnier" <penny.creative.outlets@erols.com>
To: "h-costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: H-COST: Patterns
Date: Sat, 9 Oct 1999 20:46:38 -0400
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-Poster: "Penny Ladnier" <penny.creative.outlets@erols.com>

Who sells historic patterns for costumes for the War of 1812 reenactment for
men and women?   Can you please send me web addresses and/or phone numbers.

Later... Penny
http://www.costumegallery.com

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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Sat Oct  9 22:04:19 1999
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Date: Sat, 09 Oct 1999 23:25:17 -0400
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-Poster: Jean Zerby <jzerby@scnc.pcs.k12.mi.us>

Cool!

Raella

ches@io.com wrote:

> -Poster: ches@io.com
>
> WOW!
>
> For those of you that are still not able to find it:
> http://gallery.euroweb.hu/art/m/memling/religion/altar/passion3.jpg
>
> This is just beautiful, not only are there seams but the pattern is not
> matched up and it shows her back! A rare back of the dress view is worth a
> veiwing. We have so few good examples of what they did in the back.
>
> Sincerely,
> F. Havas
> ches@io.com
>

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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Sat Oct  9 22:11:19 1999
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Date: Sat, 09 Oct 1999 23:32:45 -0400
From: Jean Zerby <jzerby@scnc.pcs.k12.mi.us>
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Subject: Re: H-COST: Re: hoop skirt
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-Poster: Jean Zerby <jzerby@scnc.pcs.k12.mi.us>

Not only do I know what a POOF is, I have one! I'm not sure it's the same as
yours, My grandparent brought a few back from Nigeria a long time ago. It's
like a leather ottoman w/o wheels or internal structure.
They stuffed them full of newpaper in Africa, mines stuffed w/ old pillows.

Raella

Russell Hedges wrote:

> -Poster: Russell Hedges <russellh@home.com>
>
>         I have to post on this subject.  The first hoop skirt I ever saw in
> person went "SHOOP SHOOP" as she walked.
>
>         Not just a Hula Hoop, but a Shoop Shoop Hula Hoop.
>
>         Does anyone know what a "POOF" is?  Hint, it's a piece of furniture.
>
>         Russell Hedges

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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Sat Oct  9 22:13:29 1999
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-Poster: Jean Zerby <jzerby@scnc.pcs.k12.mi.us>

Try  The Historic Spanish Society in NYNY

Raella

"Hope H. Dunlap" wrote:

> -Poster: "Hope H. Dunlap" <hhdunlap@msn.com>
>
> There are a few paragraphs in the Countess of Wilton's 1846
> The Book of Costume, or
> Annals of Fashion, ed. by RLShep, regarding the costume of
> the Spaniard and a line drawing:
>
> "The most important part of the Spaniard's costume is the
> capa or cloak ...  that worn by the higher classes is of
> blue or black cloth, faced with rich black silk velvet, and
> frequently lined throughout with taffety ... not a winter
> garment alone; in the hottest days of summer it is often
> worn ...
>
> "The rest of the costume consists of a short round jacket,
> with an upright collar.  It is sometimes of dyed sheepskin
> with the wool outwards, but more commonly of coarse cloth or
> velvet, brown, green, blue or black--adorned with tags on
> the breasts, trimmed with braid and velvet, lined with silk
> ...often has silk epaulettes... Two handkercheifs are thrust
> into small side pockets, red and white, or red and yellow,
> with their ends depending (sic).
>
> "The waistcoat on fete-days is generally bright silk, gaily
> figured, often with representations of bullfights.  It is
> adorned with basket-buttons, and trimmed with braid like the
> jacket, and is worn very open to display the well-worked
> shirt, the collars of which are invariably turned down,
> leaving the throat exposed.  Round the neck is worn a silk
> scarf, tied in a slip knot, descending on the bosom.  It is
> generally crimson, pink, or canary cooed, but ought always
> to correspond in hue to the lineing of the jacket, and with
> the sash or faga, which is a narrow strip of silk or
> worsted, girded round the waist with several turns.  One end
> is often sewn up into a pouch, which serves as a purse, and
> bag for tobacco.  A large clasp knife is a never-failing
> intimate of the faga.
>
> "Tight breeches of blue, green, or chocolate plush, or
> punto, reach below the knee, where they are tied with cords,
> terminating in tassels of the same color.  The outer seams
> are adorned with rows of dangling basket-buttons, plaited or
> gilt, and sometimes with broad stripes of dark braid.  The
> legs are cased in splatterdashes or botines of calf-skin,
> fastened with leather loops on the outer sides of the legs,
> bur left open at the calf, so as always to give the
> appearance of a full and handsome limb.  They are made with
> the rough side outwards--and are carefully worked on the
> front and back with flowers of darker leather ... sometimes
> stittched with silk of various colors.
>
> "The shoes (zapatos) are partially covered by the botines,
> are of similar leather, so that together they appear like
> high boots .... and rarely of black tanned leather studded
> with brass tacks...
>
> "Over the head is a bright silk handkercheif, folded
> diagonally, and tied with a knot behind ... over this is a
> broad -brimmed sugarloaf hat of black felt."
>
> I believe she is describing the plains Spaniard here, as she
> goes on to describe another costume for the men of the
> mountainous regions.
>
> Hope H. Dunlap
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: owner-h-costume@indra.com
> [mailto:owner-h-costume@indra.com]On
> > Behalf Of Design
> > Sent: Friday, October 08, 1999 12:54 PM
> > To: h-costume@indra.com
> > Subject: H-COST: Date: Fri, 8 Oct 1999 11:49:40 -0600
> >
> >
> >
> > -Poster: "Design" <design@alincocostumes.com>
> >
> > Can anyone direct me to pictures of traditional Spanish
> > clothing from the
> > 18th century?  I am especially looking for costume ideas
> for
> > a Don Juan type
> > charater.
> >
> > Thanks to any who can help,
> > Kevin Wasden

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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Sat Oct  9 23:10:45 1999
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Date: Sat, 09 Oct 1999 23:20:38 -0500
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From: Pierre & Sandy Pettinger <costumrs@radiks.net>
Subject: H-COST: Re: Crystal pleated gauze
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-Poster: Pierre & Sandy Pettinger <costumrs@radiks.net>

>>, Kimberly Gilbert <kimberlygilbert@worldnet.att.net> writes
>
>>Can anyone tell me what crystal pleated gauze is?  The new
>>Simplicity Elizabethan pattern calls for it for the ruff,
>>but I have no idea what it is (or where to obtain it).  Any
>>help would be appreciated.
>>
>>Kimberly
>
Crystal pleating is very tiny accordion pleating, many times used in
ruffles.  Similar to the type of pleating Madame Vionnet is known for.  I
have seen pre-made crystal pleated gauze ruffles and yardage in the bridal
section of Hancocks.  It's probably nylon or polyester (not period!) but
you can get an idea of what it looks like.

Sandy

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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Sat Oct  9 23:27:30 1999
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From: "Penny Ladnier" <penny.creative.outlets@erols.com>
To: "h-costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: H-COST: National Geographic CD-ROM
Date: Sun, 10 Oct 1999 00:42:28 -0400
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-Poster: "Penny Ladnier" <penny.creative.outlets@erols.com>

I was in COSTCO yesterday and the National Geographic CD-rom set was $99 and
it has a coupon for a $30 rebate good until Dec. 31.  So the price is now
$69.  It is coming down into my price range.

Later... Penny
http://www.costumegallery.com

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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Sat Oct  9 23:48:42 1999
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To: <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: H-COST: Same Woman
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-Poster: "K & J Hopkins" <khopkins@cyberhighway.net>

Wow! I just noticed the same woman in the exact same sideless surcote and
red underdress in three separate Memling Paintings.

If you go to;

http://gallery.euroweb.hu/art/m/memling/religion/altar/

Click on - Diptych1.jpg and then on Donne.jpg. See the woman with the
sideless surcote with the white top and patterned bottom and red
underdress?  She is also in another triptych of Memling's in my new
fabulous Bruges book.  'Triptych of Saints John the Baptist and John the
Evangelist'.

OK, why is Mary Magdelene portrayed as having sleeves that are often red or
another color different from the dress?

Also who was Sisamnes?  There is a graphic painting of him being flayed in
my new fabulous (OK, I probably paid too much for it) Bruges book.  The
painting is called The Justice of Cambyses.  Again the people have that
realistic look about them, even the guy being flayed.  I wasn't sure if it
was allegorical in nature.

Kathlene
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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Sun Oct 10 00:00:15 1999
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Date: Sun, 10 Oct 1999 01:17:07 -0400
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-Poster: Janice Dallas <janicedals@mediaone.net>

AlterYears carries 1812 era patterns in these brands: Wingeo, La Mode
Bagatelle, Rocking Horse Farm (has men's and Dragoon uniform as
well),The Mantua Maker, Tailor's Guide (has men's also), Harriet's
Patterns (has men's),and Period Patterns.  They may have more in the new
catalog, mine's from '98. 
-- 
Janice Dallas
JaniceDals@MediaOne.net
"Just so, the girl has beauty, virtue, wit..."
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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Sun Oct 10 00:39:45 1999
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From: "Christopher Ballis" <stilskin@netspace.net.au>
To: <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: H-COST: Same Woman
Date: Sun, 10 Oct 1999 15:35:00 +1000
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-Poster: "Christopher Ballis" <stilskin@netspace.net.au>

She may be a family member, lover or some other friend of the artist.
Artists often placed friends and families in thier work...David's
coronation of Napoleon, for instance, has the artist's family watching
proceedings from a mezzanine in spite of the fact that they had not
attended.

-C.

> Wow! I just noticed the same woman in the exact same sideless surcote and
> red underdress in three separate Memling Paintings.

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To: <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: H-COST: was it this list?
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-Poster: "K & J Hopkins" <khopkins@cyberhighway.net>

 http://gallery.euroweb.hu/art/m/memling/portrait/

Then click on woman-lo.jpg or portinar.jpg

What is the consensus on the collars on the dresses?  Are they sewn as a
part of the dress or attached separately? The collars in these two
portraits look to be made of fur and look as if they may be attached
separately, but I have seen others that appear to be linen and go under
(tucked?) the belt.

This is a great Web Page.

Kathlene
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Date: Sun, 10 Oct 1999 13:41:08 -0500
To: h-costume@indra.com
From: Melanie Schuessler <melanie@faucet.net>
Subject: Re: H-COST: prints in private collections
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-Poster: Melanie Schuessler <melanie@faucet.net>

>-Poster: Lavolta Press <lavolta@best.com>
>  As far as I know, photos of paintings are as copyrightable as photos of
>sculptures or
>buildings or people.  If two different photographers take pictures of a
>painting,
>each photographer owns the copyright to his/her own picture (though not to the
>original painting).  A scan is essentially a photo.
<...>
>Actually, as I understand it, you do own the rights to a photo you have taken
>yourself, no matter what it is of. Unless of course you have sold or otherwise
>transferred those rights.  In some cases you may need someone else's
>permission to
>create/take the photo to begin with, or to publish it.

I am wondering if you could clarify a bit.  For the purposes of this
question, I am not so interested in my own things being copyright-protected
as in not violating someone else's copyright.

If a scan is a photo, and the photographer has rights to any photographs
(scans) that they have taken, then if I scan a photo (say, from a book),
and the images in the book are obviously copyrighted, may I or may I not
publish this picture on my website?  I see from your last sentence (in the
above snip) that this may vary, but how do I distinguish?

Also, I am happy to give full attribution to the source--does this change
things any?

My second question relates to the beginning of this thread, in which one
person suggested some ebay images as a source and you replied that this is
a violation of the seller's copyright.  Having read through the relevant
part of ebay's user agreement, this is indeed what it says.  Is this legal
for them to say regarding personal use?  That is, if all I want to do is
copy an image for my own personal use, never to be published or used in any
commercial endeavor?  I am certainly far from an expert, but I thought that
personal and educational uses (not abuses) were legal even for copyrighted
images.

Thanks for any help you can give.

Melanie


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-Poster: Lavolta Press <lavolta@best.com>



Melanie Schuessler wrote:

> -
>
> If a scan is a photo, and the photographer has rights to any photographs
> (scans) that they have taken, then if I scan a photo (say, from a book),
> and the images in the book are obviously copyrighted, may I or may I not
> publish this picture on my website?  I see from your last sentence (in the
> above snip) that this may vary, but how do I distinguish?

If you make a scan of a photo that someone else has taken, and that photo is
covered by modern copyright, then I believe your scan is a derivative work.  You
may not publish derivative works of copyrighted material without the permission of
the copyright owner of the original work


> My second question relates to the beginning of this thread, in which one
> person suggested some ebay images as a source and you replied that this is
> a violation of the seller's copyright.  Having read through the relevant
> part of ebay's user agreement, this is indeed what it says.  Is this legal
> for them to say regarding personal use?  That is, if all I want to do is
> copy an image for my own personal use, never to be published or used in any
> commercial endeavor?  I am certainly far from an expert, but I thought that
> personal and educational uses (not abuses) were legal even for copyrighted
> images.

"Educational use" is subject to significant limitations, which I have mentioned
before at length on the h-costume list.  Among them are a connection with a formal,
nonprofit classroom, the number of copies made, the length of the material used,
spontaneity (there was not enough time to order a textbook and have the students
buy it), and other considerations.  For more information, see a book on copyright,
such as the _Copyright Handbook_, by by Donald E. Johnston.

Ebay is a somewhat different situation also involving a contract--the user's
agreement.  As far as I know, you can put whatever restrictions you want in a
contract as long as they don't violate the law (and it looks to me like ebay's
contract and policies were written by their lawyers, who ought to know).  For
example, ebay's user contract can put restrictions on use of their site that might
not necessarily be included in another auction's web site contract.  When you use
ebay, you are bound by their contract/agreement, not by someone else's, or by what
you personally think is "fair."

Fran Grimble

---------------------------------------------
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Books on historic costume and vintage clothes
http://www.best.com/~lavolta/index.htm
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-Poster: Lavolta Press <lavolta@best.com>

>
>
> Also, I am happy to give full attribution to the source--does this change
> things any?

I see I forgot to answer this question.  The copyright owner has the right to
control publication of and charge payment for their work.  Publishing their work
without their explicit and prior permission is a copyright violation regardless of
whether you give credit for it.  If you ask their permission and they say, "Yes, if
you give me credit in such-and-such form," then that credit is part of your
contract/agreement with them, but it is not strictly speaking a copyright issue.


Fran


---------------------------------------------
Visit our web pages!
Books on historic costume and vintage clothes
http://www.best.com/~lavolta/index.htm
Historic and vintage dance
http://www.best.com/~lavolta/dance/index.htm


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Subject: Re: H-COST: prints in private collections
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	 <37FCCAA8.B37CCB3@best.com> <37FD5029.247F@netwiz.net>
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-Poster: Lavolta Press <lavolta@best.com>



Melanie Schuessler wrote:

> Thanks for sharing your expertise on this matter.  Hopefully it will, by
> informing us of what is legal, help us to respect and adhere to the
> copyright laws.  If you should ever come across a good book on internet
> copyright, I hope that you will share it with the list, as this seems to be
> an issue for a number of us.
>
> Thanks,
> Melanie

OK, but the Internet is just another publishing medium.  The real problem is
that currently many people putting material on the Internet are not fully aware
of the basic copyright laws.  I think that will change eventually, but it
hasn't yet.

Anyway if you want to use material, someone else has published on the net, ask
their permission.  If you are wondering if _they_ are publishing it legally,
I'd recommend asking them relevant questions, such as "Where did you get this
material?" "The date on the book you scanned that from indicates the book may
still be copyrighted; did you verify that the copyright has expired?"  "Can you
put me in touch with the copyright holder so I can ask their permission to use
this material?"  etc.

Fran

---------------------------------------------
Visit our web pages!
Books on historic costume and vintage clothes
http://www.best.com/~lavolta/index.htm
Historic and vintage dance
http://www.best.com/~lavolta/dance/index.htm


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Date: Sun, 10 Oct 1999 17:55:08 -0400
From: Janice Dallas <janicedals@mediaone.net>
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Subject: Re: H-COST: hoop skirts
References: <00e701bf127e$3c1bd720$0be6fea9@gunsafes>
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-Poster: Janice Dallas <janicedals@mediaone.net>

AlterYears has hoops for less than $65.  CS104 - 4 wire no ruffles use
for Tudor and Elizabethan, 135" circumference is available in white for
$40 or black or red for $45.  CS105 - 5 wire no ruffle, use for late
1850's-1860's, 150" circumference in the same three colors is $45-$50. 
CS112 - 6 wire no ruffles, dome-shaped, use for 1850's, 150"
circumference, same three colors is $50-$55.
Their shop is in Pasadena, California, but their catalog ships to other
places.  They also have 18th century full court panniers and 1860's
elliptical.
-- 
Janice Dallas
JaniceDals@MediaOne.net
"Just so, the girl has beauty, virtue, wit..."
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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Sun Oct 10 18:54:43 1999
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Date: Sun, 10 Oct 1999 15:28:39 -0600
From: Elizabeth Lee <elee@xpert.net>
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Subject: Re: H-COST: Simplicity 14thC cotehardie and sideless, #8725
References: <19990919194331.93863.qmail@hotmail.com> <37E549C8.D25DC4E4@thibault.org>
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-Poster: Elizabeth Lee <elee@xpert.net>

Hi,

Sorry to be posting so late on this subject, but it took me a while to catch up
on some back e-mail due to a very busy life right now.

There is a wedding dress pattern, Simplicity 6751, that is basically a 12-gore
cotehardie pattern needing minor changes (such as lengthen the sleeves full
length, change necklie to scoop instead of V, change zipper to buttons, etc).
Someone from the Denver area found and used this pattern, and has a picture in
one of her books that looks like it could document the use of 3 panels per
quarter-body (don't remember which one, one of the madonna paintings that you can
see the "princess" seams, 2 of them, on the front right quarter).

I have also found one of the "It's so Easy" simplicity patterns for a modern day
dress, 8-gore with princess seams, that was easily adapted to a cotehardie
pattern (take out zipper, lengthen pieces about a foot or so depending on height,
widen the 'flair' of the skirt starting at the hips) but i don't remember the
number offhand -- I am currently using 'wastecloth' pattern pieces copied from
the paper, which I put away somewhere.  If I find the pattern envelope, I will
post the number (if people are interested).

Richenda




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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Sun Oct 10 21:20:48 1999
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Subject: H-COST: RE:Cleaning Machines 
Date: Sun, 10 Oct 1999 22:26:17 -0500
x-sender: tr002203-elisee@williams.tricreations.com
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From: Elisee du Lyonnais <elisee@sewingcentral.com>
To: <h-costume@indra.com>
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-Poster: Elisee du Lyonnais <elisee@sewingcentral.com>

The biggest problem with canned air is that if the can has been shaken or 
is not perfectly vertical the can will dispense propellant along with the 
air into the machine.  The propellant will in many years pit the parts.  
In professional repair shops we use an air tank that puts out a much 
higher power jet of air (120 pounds) but is safe because there is no 
propellant.  We refill the tank when it gets low, or some huge shops 
simply have a compressor.

Try this to prove it to yourself.  Shake your can of air and *poof* it on 
your hand.  Then spray it out into the air a time or two and do it again. 
 You shuld feel a _wet_ cold burst the first time, simply air the second. 
 

Take out as much lint and gunk as possible with a paper towel or 
mini-vacuum before you use the air, and it minimizes the lint getting 
into where you don't want it (like foofed back into your face).  Remember 
there can be needle tips or pin tips if you've had collisions, so you 
don't want those flying up into your eyes.  

I just had a machine brought to me with so much lint under the needle 
plate that the feed dogs couldn't rise at all - she thought she had 
jammed her machine for good.  

Lisee

Beth wrote:

>
>-Poster: "Beth" <bchamber@suffolk.lib.ny.us>
>
>>
>> One of the things I do is keep a can of compressed air by the machine so
>> that every time I change the bobbin I remember to clean out the
>> machine.  It's easy to just 'spritz' the bobbin compartment before you
>> put the bobbin back in.
>
>Back when the canned air was first really "big" a sewing machine repairman
> a good one) told me never to use it. Canned air would push a certain amount
>of lint & dirt deeper into the machine, eventually causing more problems. I
>use the same small vacuum attachments as I use for my computer to clean my
>machines.
>
>Beth
>
>
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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Sun Oct 10 21:37:04 1999
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Date: Sun, 10 Oct 1999 22:50:23 EDT
Subject: H-COST: Simplicity 
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-Poster: Elysant@aol.com

-Poster: <Elysant@aol.com>

>I have also found one of the "It's so Easy" simplicity patterns for a modern 
day
>dress, 8-gore with princess seams, that was easily adapted to a cotehardie
>pattern (take out zipper, lengthen pieces about a foot or so depending on 
height,
>widen the 'flair' of the skirt starting at the hips) but i don't remember the
>number offhand -- I am currently using 'wastecloth' pattern pieces copied 
from
>the paper, which I put away somewhere.  If I find the pattern envelope, I 
will
>post the number (if people are interested).

Could you please?

Thanks

Elysant
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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Sun Oct 10 22:57:47 1999
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Date: Mon, 11 Oct 1999 00:06:41 -0400
To: h-costume@indra.com
From: Danielle Nunn <dnunn@interlog.com>
Subject: H-COST: They've labeled us! - humour
In-Reply-To: <002e01bf12b8$ea2c08a0$be56accf@e4c2n6>
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-Poster: Danielle Nunn <dnunn@interlog.com>

Greetings,

I just got this on another e-list I'm on and thought that most of you are
fellow sufferers. 

Cheers,
Danielle

>--------- Begin forwarded message ----------
>The Center for Disease Control in Atlanta today announced the
>identification of a new disease. Tentatively named Acquired Needlework
>Syndrome, the disease is highly infectious. Scientists at CDC say the
>disease is caused by a bacillus called staphloaiguille because of its
>needle-like shape. Under the microscope the bacillus is long and slender
>with a long narrow opening at one end, from which trail thread-like
>cilia.
>
>Symptoms of the disease include feverish babbling of letters such as DMC,
>TW, LOL, ROFL and talking about invisible friends such as Teresa, Paula,
>Robert, Karen, etc. At first sufferers appear to be taking an unusual
>interest in Verdi operas, while more advanced cases develop wanderlust,
>especially wishing to travel to Edinburgh, Dublin, and Belfast. Other
>symptoms include feverish buying and storing of woven goods and printed
>pamphlets, and a 'smoking' credit card. The disease is especially
>dangerous because it cannot only be passed along directly from one
>infected individual to another, but documented cases have been found
>where the sufferer caught the disease from reading a
>magazine, or attending a craft show. 
>
>The CDC says that while the disease is especially prevalent in North
>America, cases have been found in every country on the globe. Family
>members should be aware that while the disease may occasionally enter
>remission, it is at present incurable.
>
>The patient should be given a quiet corner with a comfortable chair and
>good lighting. Interruptions should be minimized. 
>


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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Mon Oct 11 06:28:08 1999
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From: AnnBWass@aol.com
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Date: Mon, 11 Oct 1999 07:41:39 EDT
Subject: Re: H-COST: 1812Patterns
To: h-costume@indra.com
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-Poster: AnnBWass@aol.com

I'm sorry I missed the initial inquiry about War of 1812 patterns.  This is 
my special area of interest, and I have done quite a bit of research in the 
area.  I would be glad to share with anyone with an interest in this area.  
Ann Wass
annbwass@aol.com
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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Mon Oct 11 06:31:57 1999
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Message-ID: <0.3c4274f7.253327f0@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 11 Oct 1999 07:45:52 EDT
Subject: Re: H-COST: Silk brocade
To: h-costume@indra.com
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-Poster: AnnBWass@aol.com

Of course silk brocades were coming from China, as well as Italy.  But my 
feeling is that most of the modern silk brocades (or part silk--most of them 
are primarily acetate) just look TOO oriental.  Even though "Chinoiserie" was 
popular in the mid 18th century, the patterns did not look like today's 
brocades.  

I have been successful in finding one real silk brocade, from Korea, that has 
a nice baroque-style design.  Alas, there was only enough for an open 
robe--no petticoat.

Ann Wass
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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Mon Oct 11 07:25:23 1999
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Subject: H-COST: RE:Cleaning Machines 
Date: Mon, 11 Oct 1999 08:43:05 -0500
x-sender: tr002203-elisee@williams.tricreations.com
x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v3, January 22, 1998
From: Elisee du Lyonnais <elisee@sewingcentral.com>
To: <h-costume@indra.com>
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-Poster: Elisee du Lyonnais <elisee@sewingcentral.com>

The biggest problem with canned air is that if the can has been shaken or 
is not perfectly vertical the can will dispense propellant along with the 
air into the machine.  The propellant will in many years pit the parts.  
In professional repair shops we use an air tank that puts out a much 
higher power jet of air (120 pounds) but is safe because there is no 
propellant.  We refill the tank when it gets low, or some huge shops 
simply have a compressor.

Try this to prove it to yourself.  Shake your can of air and *poof* it on 
your hand.  Then spray it out into the air a time or two and do it again. 
 You shuld feel a _wet_ cold burst the first time, simply air the second. 
 

Take out as much lint and gunk as possible with a paper towel or 
mini-vacuum before you use the air, and it minimizes the lint getting 
into where you don't want it (like foofed back into your face).  Remember 
there can be needle tips or pin tips if you've had collisions, so you 
don't want those flying up into your eyes.  

I just had a machine brought to me with so much lint under the needle 
plate that the feed dogs couldn't rise at all - she thought she had 
jammed her machine for good.  

Lisee

Beth wrote:

>
>-Poster: "Beth" <bchamber@suffolk.lib.ny.us>
>
>>
>> One of the things I do is keep a can of compressed air by the machine so
>> that every time I change the bobbin I remember to clean out the
>> machine.  It's easy to just 'spritz' the bobbin compartment before you
>> put the bobbin back in.
>
>Back when the canned air was first really "big" a sewing machine repairman
> a good one) told me never to use it. Canned air would push a certain amount
>of lint & dirt deeper into the machine, eventually causing more problems. I
>use the same small vacuum attachments as I use for my computer to clean my
>machines.
>
>Beth
>
>
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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Mon Oct 11 09:24:22 1999
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-Poster: Megan & David Schmidt <megan@airmail.net>

(laughing quietly to myself....)
does it bother anyone that the words sewer (one who sews) and sewer
(where all the ummm...waste material goes) are spelled the same?  All I
could think of is an archeological dig at a waste water plant where one
centuries from now, they examined all the clothing that was flushed down
the toilet or eaten by the washing machine.

Jonna Hayden wrote:Clothing Re: Past

> Fine Patterns for the Historical Sewer.
>
> (I must be hungry. . .)
>
> Jonna
>
> _

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Subject: Re: H-COST: Name My Business...some of my suggestions
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-Poster: Margo Anderson <margo@directcon.net>

At 09:35 AM 10/11/1999 -0500, you wrote:
>
>-Poster: Megan & David Schmidt <megan@airmail.net>
>
>(laughing quietly to myself....)
>does it bother anyone that the words sewer (one who sews) and sewer
>(where all the ummm...waste material goes) are spelled the same?  All I
>could think of is an archeological dig at a waste water plant where one
>centuries from now, they examined all the clothing that was flushed down
>the toilet or eaten by the washing machine.

Maybe they could solve the mystery of Where The Socks Go....

Margo

"One Tough Costumer"
http://www.directcon.net/wander/main.htm

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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Mon Oct 11 10:49:42 1999
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-Poster: Merouda the True of Beaumaris <keltia@serv.net>

> but it does cast doubt on the rather broad statement
> inferring the winding thing is so ridiculous that nobody
> would have worn it attitude.

I haven't seen anyone with *this* attitude.   It certainly isn't mine.

Cynthia
--
Cynthia Long
Merouda the True of Beaumaris
Barony of Madrone
Kingdom of An Tir


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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Mon Oct 11 12:00:39 1999
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From: "Cynthia Barnes" <Cynthia_Barnes@phoenix.com>
To: <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: H-COST: Spanish 18th century
Date: Mon, 11 Oct 1999 10:10:52 -0700
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-Poster: "Cynthia Barnes" <Cynthia_Barnes@phoenix.com>


> Can anyone direct me to pictures of traditional Spanish clothing from the
> 18th century?  I am especially looking for costume ideas for
> a Don Juan type charater.

Goya paintings at the Prado, Madrid.  (Not the black pictures; the dancers,
the picnics, the lovers.)
--cin
Cynthia Barnes
408.570.1023
Cynthia_Barnes@phoenix.com
Phoenix Technologies
411 E. Plumeria Dr.
San Jose CA 95134
"I think animal testing is a terrible idea; they get all nervous and
give the wrong answers."

h-costume@indra.com

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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Mon Oct 11 12:12:03 1999
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-Poster: Merouda the True of Beaumaris <keltia@serv.net>

> Wow! I just noticed the same woman in the exact same sideless surcote and
> red underdress in three separate Memling Paintings.
> http://gallery.euroweb.hu/art/m/memling/religion/altar/
> Click on - Diptych1.jpg and then on Donne.jpg.

She is also in another painting, The Marriage of St. Catherine, I'm not sure
that it's even Memling.  This one I've seen in the Velvet book by Fabrizzio.
The nicest of them all I think.  Exact same dress and surcote.  Exact.
Amazing.

Cynthia
--
Cynthia Long
Merouda the True of Beaumaris
Barony of Madrone
Kingdom of An Tir


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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Mon Oct 11 12:22:35 1999
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Date: Mon, 11 Oct 1999 13:35:30 EDT
Subject: Re: H-COST: hoop skirts
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-Poster: Marionetta@aol.com

 The cheapest hoops I've found are from chivalry sports, only $32.95.  Best 
for early civil war or elizabethan.  Check them out at:

<A HREF="http://renstore.com/undergarb.shtml">http://renstore.com/undergarb.sh
tml
</A>
Cheers,

Loren Dearborn
marionetta@aol.com
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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Mon Oct 11 13:15:25 1999
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Date: Mon, 11 Oct 1999 13:36:54 -0500 (CDT)
From: Robin Netherton <robin@shell.nightowl.net>
To: h-costume@indra.com
Subject: Re: H-COST: Same Woman
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-Poster: Robin Netherton <robin@shell.nightowl.net>


On Sat, 9 Oct 1999, K & J Hopkins wrote:

> Wow! I just noticed the same woman in the exact same sideless surcote and
> red underdress in three separate Memling Paintings.

Memling placed the same St. Catherine in the Donne Triptych (1479, London,
National Gallery), the altarpiece for the Hospital of St. John in Bruges
(commissioned 1474, completed 1479, still in Bruges, where the hospital
now houses the Memling Museum), and a smaller Virgin & Child with Saints
at the Metropolitan Museum in New York (1480). The latter two pieces
depict the "mystic marriage" of St. Catherine. I'm guessing that these are
the same three paintings you're mentioning. 

The St. John altarpiece was generally considered Memling's finest work and
would have been seen by anyone coming to Bruges at that time.  Memling was
clearly very busy in the late 1470s, and it was quite routine at any major
painter's studio for donors to come in and say "I want something just like
X, but put in me and my family for the donors, and change the saints on
the wings to my patron saints." Or, "I can't afford a triptych. I'd like
just a panel, and squeeze me in on the side." That's probably the case
with the New York St. Catherine, which is almost a direct copy of the
center panel of the St. John altarpiece. In making the copy, Memling
removed two saints (St. John the Baptist and St. John the Evangalist, both
patrons of the hospital), added a donor (off to the left, replacing a
sheep), and tripled the size of St. Barbara's tower (presumably to balance
the new donor compositionally -- Memling liked symmetry). He retained the
Virgin, Saints Catherine and Barbara, and two musical angels. Not only are
the Catherines identical, but so are the Barbaras (in green with a brown
mantle).

For the Donne triptych, he made additional changes in the composition,
mostly to place Donne, his wife, and their daughter directly in the front,
as central figures worshipping Mary. The mystic marriage is no longer
depicted, which frees Saints Catherine and Barbara to be moved behind,
escorting the Donne family, to the positions formerly occupied by the
Saints John & John. There are some other changes (details of the canopy,
the instruments carried by the angels). Barbara gets pin-on sleeves to her
green dress, and the virgin gets a brighter blue underdress. 

One thing that's important to remember about Catherine's sideless surcote
is that it was part of her iconography, not a representation of anything
worn in the 1470s. I have a lecture on this that's too long to repeat
here, but suffice it to say that the sideless surcote went out of fashion
almost a century earlier, having become reserved for royal ceremonial use,
and became frozen in art to depict ancient queens, particularly royal
saints, such as Catherine and Ursula. I've collected hundreds of St.
Catherines, and something like 90 percent of them are in sideless
surcotes; it was as much of an identifier for her as the wheel, crown, and
sword. By the time Memling and his contemporaries were painting Catherine,
painting styles were much more realistic than they were when sideless
surcotes were actually worn, and clothing construction methods had changed
considerably. Lacking any direct examples of *real* sideless surcotes,
they apparently painted these dresses as they assumed they would be made
if sewn by tailors of their own day, which bears little resemblance to the
way they had actually been made in the later 1300s for real people. I
would not be surprised if Memling had the dress made up as a costume for
his model, in which case it would have been easy enough to re-use -- or he
could have done it from imagination and then repainted it from the
previous paintings. 

> OK, why is Mary Magdelene portrayed as having sleeves that are often red or
> another color different from the dress?

A red dress or sleeves is iconographically associated with Mary Magdalene,
the former prostitute, as is exotic or flashy clothing. She was one of the
few saints that artists could legitimately dress sexy, and the only one of
those who routinely appears in scenes of Christ's life, so they "went to
town" with her. That tendency increased over the course of the 1400s.  Her
noticable presence and bright colors were very useful compositionally, to
balance other elements of the painting or to draw the eye in certain
directions. I've collected lots of Mary Magdalenes over the years too, and
if you place the Flemish depictions in a chronological line, you can
clearly trace her increasingly prominent placement in the compositions, as
well as increasing flashiness of her dress. (Yeah, it's another lecture.)
The most popular female Saints in the Middle Ages, after the Virgin Mary
of course, were Catherine and Mary Magdalene, so it's easy to find
examples, and artists had plenty of reason to codify their appearance for
easy identification -- and lots of opportunity to play with them. 

> Also who was Sisamnes?  There is a graphic painting of him being flayed in
> my new fabulous (OK, I probably paid too much for it) Bruges book.  The
> painting is called The Justice of Cambyses.  Again the people have that
> realistic look about them, even the guy being flayed.  I wasn't sure if it
> was allegorical in nature.

Not allegory so much as moral tale.  This is a pair of panel paintings
commissioned from Gerard David in 1498 for the alderman's room of the
Bruges City Hall. They now reside in the Groening Museum (just down the
street from the Memling Museum, and another good reason to visit Bruges,
along with lace and waffles). Sisamnes was a Persian judge who did some
heinous crime (I think took a bribe), and who was punished by being flayed
alive. The Bruges alderman chose that subject for their meeting hall as a
reminder for the city fathers to resist corruption. I could find further
details somewhere if someone needs them.

--Robin

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From: "StitchWitch" <stitchwitch@excite.com>
To: h-costume@indra.com
Subject: Re: H-COST: Name My Business...some of my suggestions
Message-Id: <939670399.24395.797@excite.com>
Date: Mon, 11 Oct 1999 12:33:19 PDT
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-Poster: "StitchWitch" <stitchwitch@excite.com>


> (laughing quietly to myself....)
> does it bother anyone that the words sewer (one who sews) and sewer
> (where all the ummm...waste material goes) are spelled the same?  

Which is exactly why I spell the one having to do with spot-welding fabric
together sew-er!

> All I
> could think of is an archeological dig at a waste water plant where one
> centuries from now, they examined all the clothing that was flushed down
> the toilet or eaten by the washing machine.

And how else are those who come after us to really know our tastes in
fashion? (Or lack thereof . . .) If it weren't for middins and the like,
we'd have nothing to go by for  . . . oh . . . lots of stuff that's slipped
my tiny mind at the moment! (The bananna in the Elizabethan privvy does
spring to the fore, however . . . strange . . . ;)

Kate
----
StitchWitch

A learned bastard takes precedence over an ignorant high priest. - The
Talmud, 5th Cen.




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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Mon Oct 11 14:51:30 1999
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Date: Mon, 11 Oct 1999 13:08:31 -0700
From: Merouda the True of Beaumaris <keltia@serv.net>
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-Poster: Merouda the True of Beaumaris <keltia@serv.net>

>  http://gallery.euroweb.hu/art/m/memling/portrait/
> Then click on woman-lo.jpg or portinar.jpg
> What is the consensus on the collars on the dresses?  Are they sewn as a
> part of the dress or attached separately? The collars in these two
> portraits look to be made of fur and look as if they may be attached
> separately

Yes they are made of fur, the portraits are wonderful.  I would guess that
the gowns are lined and that the collar folds back or is attached in some
way.  If you look at the sleeves you will see a little bit of fur peeking
out from inside the gown.  This indicates to me that the gowns are lined.
But having never actually seen one extant, I am only guessing.

Cynthia

--
Cynthia Long
Merouda the True of Beaumaris
Barony of Madrone
Kingdom of An Tir


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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Mon Oct 11 16:35:18 1999
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From: "Erica Pence" <antiquity@adelphia.net>
To: <h-costume@indra.com>
References: <617939F93346D1119D0E0060B01B0B56019AC0B5@ACT02EXC001> <37FAD891.2E115AB0@mediaone.net>
Subject: H-COST: Off-the-subject crisis
Date: Mon, 11 Oct 1999 17:51:36 -0400
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-Poster: "Erica Pence" <antiquity@adelphia.net>

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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Sorry that this is off the subject, but I have tried to unsubscribe from =
the list and subscribe with my new email address unsuccessfully.  I =
followed the exact instructions given from my first error message.  I =
have tried it about 3 times.  I have written to the owner at this =
address
majordomo-owner@indra.com=20
with no response.  Can someone email me privately and help me figure =
this out?  I had no problem with any other list I am on. =20

Thanks,
Erica

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Date: Mon, 11 Oct 1999 15:13:13 -0700
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From: Lynn Downward <ldownward@chori.org>
Subject: Re: H-COST: Off-the-subject crisis
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-Poster: Lynn Downward <ldownward@chori.org>

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=00m=00 =00"
>=00>=00m=00a=00j=00o=00r=00d=00o=00m=00o=00-=00o=00w=00n=00e=00r=00@=00i=00=
n=00d=00r=00a=00.=00c=00o=00m=00 =00 =00
>=00<=00/=00A=00>=00<=00/=00D=00I=00V=00>=00 =00 =00<=00D=00I=00V=00>=00w=00=
i=00t=00h=00 =00n=00o=00
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>=00p=00r=00i=00v=00a=00t=00e=00l=00y=00 =00a=00n=00d=00 =00h=00e=00l=00p=00=
 =00m=00e=00 =00f=00i=00g=00u=00r=00e=00 =00 =00 =00t=00h=00i=00s=00
>=00o=00u=00t=00?=00&=00n=00b=00s=00p=00;=00 =00I=00 =00h=00a=00d=00 =00n=00=
o=00 =00p=00r=00o=00b=00l=00e=00m=00 =00w=00i=00t=00h=00 =00a=00n=00y=00
>=00o=00t=00h=00e=00r=00 =00l=00i=00s=00t=00 =00I=00 =00a=00m=00 =00o=00n=00=
=2E=00&=00n=00b=00s=00p=00;=00 =00<=00/=00D=00I=00V=00>=00 =00
>=00<=00D=00I=00V=00>=00&=00n=00b=00s=00p=00;=00<=00/=00D=00I=00V=00>=00 =00
>=00<=00D=00I=00V=00>=00T=00h=00a=00n=00k=00s=00,=00<=00/=00D=00I=00V=00>=00=
 =00
>=00<=00D=00I=00V=00>=00E=00r=00i=00c=00a=00<=00/=00D=00I=00V=00>=00<=00/=00=
B=00O=00D=00Y=00>=00<=00/=00H=00T=00M=00L=00>=00 =00 =00

Did anyone get this?  I got garbage and the title sounds desperate.

LynnD
--============_-1272442472==_ma============
Content-Type: text/enriched; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable



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=00B=00O=00D=00Y=00>=00<<=00/=00H=00T=00M=00L=00>=00 =00 =00

</excerpt>

Did anyone get this?  I got garbage and the title sounds desperate.


LynnD

--============_-1272442472==_ma============--
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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Mon Oct 11 17:01:27 1999
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Date: Mon, 11 Oct 1999 17:21:26 -0500 (CDT)
From: Emma Elizabeth Lehman <00217146@bigred.unl.edu>
To: h-costume@indra.com
Subject: Re: H-COST: Off-the-subject crisis
In-Reply-To: <v04011700b4281164fcab@[172.19.1.106]>
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-Poster: Emma Elizabeth Lehman <00217146@bigred.unl.edu>



On Mon, 11 Oct 1999, Lynn Downward wrote:

--clipped a bunch of garbage-- 
> ><DIV>Erica</DIV></BODY></HTML>  
> 
> Did anyone get this?  I got garbage and the title sounds desperate.

I got it.  The message was:

Sorry that this is off the subject, but I have tried to unsubscribe from 
the list and subscribe with my new email address unsuccessfully.  I 
followed the exact instructions given from my first error message.  I have
tried it about 3 times.  I have written to the owner at this address 
majordomo-owner@indra.com with no response.  Can someone email me 
privately and help me figure this out?
 I had no problem with any other list I am on.


I didn't reply, as I have no idea what is wrong.
Emma

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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Mon Oct 11 17:04:49 1999
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Message-ID: <38026321.10699E3C@serv.net>
Date: Mon, 11 Oct 1999 15:22:25 -0700
From: Merouda the True of Beaumaris <keltia@serv.net>
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References: <617939F93346D1119D0E0060B01B0B56019AC0B5@ACT02EXC001>
	 <37FAD891.2E115AB0@mediaone.net> <v04011700b4281164fcab@[172.19.1.106]>
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-Poster: Merouda the True of Beaumaris <keltia@serv.net>

I have received several posts over the weeks from that email address
with the exact same strange letters.  FWIW, Cynthia

>      ÿþ<
>
> Did anyone get this? I got garbage and the title sounds desperate.
>
> LynnD

--
Cynthia Long
Merouda the True of Beaumaris
Barony of Madrone
Kingdom of An Tir


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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Mon Oct 11 17:08:13 1999
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Message-ID: <010a01bf1437$39de9af0$fe0110ac@akc.state.nv.us>
From: "Dan Fenwick" <daniel@fenwick.sparks.nv.us>
To: <h-costume@indra.com>
References: <Pine.OSF.3.96.991011172014.11892F-100000@bigred.unl.edu>
Subject: Re: H-COST: Off-the-subject crisis
Date: Mon, 11 Oct 1999 15:23:17 -0700
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-Poster: "Dan Fenwick" <daniel@fenwick.sparks.nv.us>

> I didn't reply, as I have no idea what is wrong.
> Emma

After seeing the preious mesage with all the markup in it, I am willing to
bet the problem is that she is not sending the list commands in plain text.

Dan

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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Mon Oct 11 17:20:17 1999
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Date: Mon, 11 Oct 1999 15:37:03 -0700
From: Merouda the True of Beaumaris <keltia@serv.net>
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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>, SCA Garb <SCA-GARB@LIST.UVM.EDU>,
        Historic Needlework <H-Needlework@Ansteorra.ORG>
Subject: H-COST: So Proud!
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-Poster: Merouda the True of Beaumaris <keltia@serv.net>

Please pardon the cross postings but I'm so happy!

Just have to brag on my friend Lady Liadain, one of our list friends.
She is the new Grand Champion of the Arts and Sciences for the Kingdom
of the Outlands.  Her entry was an absolutely lovely blackworked man's
shirt.  Completely hand sewn in linen with linen thread.  Her
documentation was impeccable, the design her own and none too easy,
the seams incrediblely finished, all french seams with a small pulled
work with each stitch.  Exquisite.  She'll try to pass some of the
kudos off on me, but believe me the Huzzah's go to her and her alone.

Cynthia/Merouda

--
Cynthia Long
Merouda the True of Beaumaris
Barony of Madrone
Kingdom of An Tir


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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Mon Oct 11 17:41:45 1999
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From: Merouda the True of Beaumaris <keltia@serv.net>
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Status: RO


-Poster: Merouda the True of Beaumaris <keltia@serv.net>

> > Which Velvet book?  Who's Fabrizzio?  (besides the author)
> > Always on the hunt for new books...
>
> Hope this works.
>
> http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0962798517/qid=939682490/sr=1-6/002-4265448-3155432

--
Cynthia Long
Merouda the True of Beaumaris
Barony of Madrone
Kingdom of An Tir


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From: The Purple Elephant <csmart@physics.adelaide.edu.au>
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-Poster: The Purple Elephant <csmart@physics.adelaide.edu.au>

On Mon, 11 Oct 1999, Dan Fenwick wrote:

> 
> -Poster: "Dan Fenwick" <daniel@fenwick.sparks.nv.us>
> 
> > I didn't reply, as I have no idea what is wrong.
> > Emma
> 
> After seeing the preious mesage with all the markup in it, I am willing to
> bet the problem is that she is not sending the list commands in plain text.
> 
Yes, there have been quite a few posts to the list lately that haven't
been in plain text (or non-ASCII), which is a pain in the proverbial. My
mail reader can translate such things (with the application viewer!) but
it's a nuisance and I'm tempted not to bother...Please switch to plain 
text!
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Claire F. Clarke       "What is this world if, full of care, 
Physicist, writer,     We have no time to stand and stare?"
and non environmentally                     Robert Louis Stevenson
friendly substance.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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Subject: H-COST: Re: Robin's lectures
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-Poster: Gaelscot@aol.com



Wow! I wish I could hear your lectures, Robin.

I like that St. Catherine sideless surcote, too bad it's not real. I knew it 
was not right chronologically, but I do like the way it looks. Not right at 
all, though, huh?

Gail Finke

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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Mon Oct 11 19:11:48 1999
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From: "Michelle" <mandrake@mypad.com>
To: <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: H-COST: Name My Business...some of my suggestions
Date: Mon, 11 Oct 1999 17:27:49 -0700
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-Poster: "Michelle" <mandrake@mypad.com>


>-Poster: Megan & David Schmidt <megan@airmail.net>
>
>(laughing quietly to myself....)
>does it bother anyone that the words sewer (one who sews) and sewer
>(where all the ummm...waste material goes) are spelled the same?  All I
>could think of is an archeological dig at a waste water plant where one
>centuries from now, they examined all the clothing that was flushed down
>the toilet or eaten by the washing machine.


Yes, that is why I always write seamstress instead. It isn't as offensive to
the ears.
Michelle

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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Mon Oct 11 20:40:43 1999
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Date: Mon, 11 Oct 1999 18:52:21 -0700
To: h-costume@indra.com
From: "Carol J. Bell Cannon" <cjcannon@greymists.com>
Subject: Re: H-COST: Name My Business...some of my suggestions
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-Poster: "Carol J. Bell Cannon" <cjcannon@greymists.com>

At 09:35 AM 10/11/1999 -0500, you wrote:
>
>-Poster: Megan & David Schmidt <megan@airmail.net>
>
>(laughing quietly to myself....)
>does it bother anyone that the words sewer (one who sews) and sewer
>(where all the ummm...waste material goes) are spelled the same?            

           Not really, but sewer is not a term I'd use for naming a person
who sews. :-)  Carol
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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Mon Oct 11 20:41:04 1999
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From: "Martha Kelly" <marthakelly@erols.com>
To: <h-costume@indra.com>
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Subject: Re: H-COST: Off-the-subject crisis
Date: Mon, 11 Oct 1999 21:10:49 -0400
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-Poster: "Martha Kelly" <marthakelly@erols.com>

I, too,  have been trying desperately to get OFF this list.  I feel like the
old woman in the fairytale about the little pot that kept making porridge -
STOP little pot, STOP! A computer guru came to my house and couldn't get me
off. She, at least, explained to me that Major Domo wasn't a person.... I
really enjoy reading the great discussions on this list, but I need to move
it to another address for obvious reasons.

If anybody knows anything, please help.

Thanks!

PS  I don't know what "plain text" is.  Why wouldn't one have it?

----- Original Message -----
From: Dan Fenwick <daniel@fenwick.sparks.nv.us>
To: <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Monday, October 11, 1999 6:23 PM
Subject: Re: H-COST: Off-the-subject crisis


>
> -Poster: "Dan Fenwick" <daniel@fenwick.sparks.nv.us>
>
> > I didn't reply, as I have no idea what is wrong.
> > Emma
>
> After seeing the preious mesage with all the markup in it, I am willing to
> bet the problem is that she is not sending the list commands in plain
text.
>
> Dan
>

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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Mon Oct 11 20:49:02 1999
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From: "Martha Kelly" <marthakelly@erols.com>
To: <h-costume@indra.com>
References: <199910111232.IAA11786@williams.tricreations.com>
Subject: Re: H-COST: RE:Cleaning Machines 
Date: Mon, 11 Oct 1999 21:18:39 -0400
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-Poster: "Martha Kelly" <marthakelly@erols.com>

I have greatly appreciated the sewing machine maintenance information from
Elisee,  who seems to know of what she speaks.

I've tried to find the Groz-Beckert or Sullivan's sewing machine needles she
recommended.  Clothilde - no, Nancy's Notions - no, Greenberg&Hammer - no,
Atlanta Thread - no,  Newark Dressmaker Supply - no. Where can I get them?

Thanks.


----- Original Message -----
From: Elisee du Lyonnais <elisee@sewingcentral.com>
To: <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Monday, October 11, 1999 9:43 AM
Subject: H-COST: RE:Cleaning Machines


>
> -Poster: Elisee du Lyonnais <elisee@sewingcentral.com>
>
> The biggest problem with canned air is that if the can has been shaken or
> is not perfectly vertical the can will dispense propellant along with the
> air into the machine.  The propellant will in many years pit the parts.
> In professional repair shops we use an air tank that puts out a much
> higher power jet of air (120 pounds) but is safe because there is no
> propellant.  We refill the tank when it gets low, or some huge shops
> simply have a compressor.
>
> Try this to prove it to yourself.  Shake your can of air and *poof* it on
> your hand.  Then spray it out into the air a time or two and do it again.
>  You shuld feel a _wet_ cold burst the first time, simply air the second.
>
>
> Take out as much lint and gunk as possible with a paper towel or
> mini-vacuum before you use the air, and it minimizes the lint getting
> into where you don't want it (like foofed back into your face).  Remember
> there can be needle tips or pin tips if you've had collisions, so you
> don't want those flying up into your eyes.
>
> I just had a machine brought to me with so much lint under the needle
> plate that the feed dogs couldn't rise at all - she thought she had
> jammed her machine for good.
>
> Lisee
>
> Beth wrote:
>
> >
> >-Poster: "Beth" <bchamber@suffolk.lib.ny.us>
> >
> >>
> >> One of the things I do is keep a can of compressed air by the machine
so
> >> that every time I change the bobbin I remember to clean out the
> >> machine.  It's easy to just 'spritz' the bobbin compartment before you
> >> put the bobbin back in.
> >
> >Back when the canned air was first really "big" a sewing machine
repairman
> > a good one) told me never to use it. Canned air would push a certain
amount
> >of lint & dirt deeper into the machine, eventually causing more problems.
I
> >use the same small vacuum attachments as I use for my computer to clean
my
> >machines.
> >
> >Beth
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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Mon Oct 11 21:00:09 1999
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Date: Mon, 11 Oct 1999 21:23:55 -0500 (CDT)
From: Robin Netherton <robin@shell.nightowl.net>
To: h-costume@indra.com
Subject: Re: H-COST: Re: Robin's lectures
In-Reply-To: <0.bbf933e9.2533d53c@aol.com>
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-Poster: Robin Netherton <robin@shell.nightowl.net>


On Mon, 11 Oct 1999 Gaelscot@aol.com wrote:

> Wow! I wish I could hear your lectures, Robin.

Me too. It would save me a lot of typing ;-)

I've done most of these at Kalamazoo over the last dozen or so years. 
Some of them required elaborate display that would be hard to reproduce,
and some were done tandem with my partner Verna Rutz. But a few of them
can stand alone, and I occasionally re-run those for other groups. I can't
do this much, as my travel time is limited (I work, and I have two small
children). 

It's also awkward that the gowns I use for visual display are scattered to
the four winds, in the possession of various people who have been kind
enough to serve as models. Audiences that are more interested in
construction usually want to see fully made costumes, not just a slide
show. I'm hoping to re-make a few more outfits for myself in future, so I
can tour more of the talks without having to depend on people's good
nature to UPS me my display materials.

> I like that St. Catherine sideless surcote, too bad it's not real. I
> knew it was not right chronologically, but I do like the way it looks.
> Not right at all, though, huh? 

Not at all. In fact, it might not even be make-able; in practice, if you
cut the bodice like that, the heavy skirt will pull the side openings out
of shape.

--Robin



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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Mon Oct 11 21:37:56 1999
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From: "Christopher Ballis" <stilskin@netspace.net.au>
To: <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: H-COST: nipples & breasts showing
Date: Mon, 11 Oct 1999 16:22:19 +1000
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-Poster: "Christopher Ballis" <stilskin@netspace.net.au>

In some art forms, Flemmish & etc from my very dulled memory, an exposed
breast was a signification of maidenhood - for instance, the Madonna is
often portrayed with one hanging out.

Oh, for a return to ye olden dayes!

-C.
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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Mon Oct 11 22:04:02 1999
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From: Melanie Schuessler <melanie@faucet.net>
Subject: Re: H-COST: nipples & breasts showing
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-Poster: Melanie Schuessler <melanie@faucet.net>

>-Poster: "Christopher Ballis" <stilskin@netspace.net.au>
>
>In some art forms, Flemmish & etc from my very dulled memory, an exposed
>breast was a signification of maidenhood - for instance, the Madonna is
>often portrayed with one hanging out.
>
>Oh, for a return to ye olden dayes!

:)

There's a detailed discussion of single bare-breastedness (that is, one
breast showing) in art in Anne Hollander's _Seeing Through Clothes_.  She
traces it from Greek statuary to 14th Madonnas through the 18th century and
analyzes its changing significance.  For Greeks, fashion, for Madonnas,
maternity, for later periods sensuality and even "a look of instability,
useful for connoting terror or license or devotional zeal." (!)  (p. 191)

I haven't re-read the whole section, but the entire book is very
intriguing--Hollander analyzes through art history different ways of
portraying the body, dressed and undressed, and how those related to each
other and the viewers in each context.

Melanie


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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Mon Oct 11 22:04:17 1999
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Date: Mon, 11 Oct 1999 20:16:29 -0700
To: h-costume@indra.com
From: "Carol J. Bell Cannon" <cjcannon@greymists.com>
Subject: Re: [Fwd: H-COST: Same Woman]
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-Poster: "Carol J. Bell Cannon" <cjcannon@greymists.com>

At 03:59 PM 10/11/1999 -0700, you wrote: -Poster: Merouda the True of
Beaumaris <keltia@serv.net>
 Which Velvet book? 
           That one, I cannot help with.
 Who's Fabrizzio? 
           Not an author, one of those Italian artists...Ren., I believe.
-- Carol 
 
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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Mon Oct 11 22:10:55 1999
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From: "Carol J. Bell Cannon" <cjcannon@greymists.com>
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-Poster: "Carol J. Bell Cannon" <cjcannon@greymists.com>

At 03:59 PM 10/11/1999 -0700, you wrote: -Poster: Merouda the True of
Beaumaris <keltia@serv.net> Which Velvet book?  Who's Fabrizzio?  (besides
the author)
>>
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0962798517/qid=939682490/sr=1-6/002-4
265448-3155432
      My apologies to Merouda/Cynthia et al.  I should have clicked first
and typed after.  There was an artist named Fabrizzio, however. :-)  The
url takes one to the book's biblio info and cites the author as Fabrizio de
Marinis.  Carol
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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Mon Oct 11 22:36:35 1999
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From: "K & J Hopkins" <khopkins@cyberhighway.net>
To: <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: H-COST: Same Woman
Date: Mon, 11 Oct 1999 21:59:22 -0600
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-Poster: "K & J Hopkins" <khopkins@cyberhighway.net>

Woo Woo!!! Thank you Robin!!!!

Kathlene

> -Poster: Robin Netherton <robin@shell.nightowl.net>
> 
> 
> On Sat, 9 Oct 1999, K & J Hopkins wrote:
> 
> > Wow! I just noticed the same woman in the exact same sideless surcote
and
> > red underdress in three separate Memling Paintings.
> 
> Memling placed the same St. Catherine in the Donne Triptych (1479,
London,
> National Gallery), the altarpiece for the Hospital of St. John in Bruges
> (commissioned 1474, completed 1479, still in Bruges, where the hospital
> now houses the Memling Museum), and a smaller Virgin & Child with Saints
> at the Metropolitan Museum in New York (1480). The latter two pieces
> depict the "mystic marriage" of St. Catherine. I'm guessing that these
are
> the same three paintings you're mentioning. 
> 
> The St. John altarpiece was generally considered Memling's finest work
and
> would have been seen by anyone coming to Bruges at that time.  Memling
was
> clearly very busy in the late 1470s, and it was quite routine at any
major
> painter's studio for donors to come in and say "I want something just
like
> X, but put in me and my family for the donors, and change the saints on
> the wings to my patron saints." Or, "I can't afford a triptych. I'd like
> just a panel, and squeeze me in on the side." That's probably the case
> with the New York St. Catherine, which is almost a direct copy of the
> center panel of the St. John altarpiece. In making the copy, Memling
> removed two saints (St. John the Baptist and St. John the Evangalist,
both
> patrons of the hospital), added a donor (off to the left, replacing a
> sheep), and tripled the size of St. Barbara's tower (presumably to
balance
> the new donor compositionally -- Memling liked symmetry). He retained the
> Virgin, Saints Catherine and Barbara, and two musical angels. Not only
are
> the Catherines identical, but so are the Barbaras (in green with a brown
> mantle).
> 
> For the Donne triptych, he made additional changes in the composition,
> mostly to place Donne, his wife, and their daughter directly in the
front,
> as central figures worshipping Mary. The mystic marriage is no longer
> depicted, which frees Saints Catherine and Barbara to be moved behind,
> escorting the Donne family, to the positions formerly occupied by the
> Saints John & John. There are some other changes (details of the canopy,
> the instruments carried by the angels). Barbara gets pin-on sleeves to
her
> green dress, and the virgin gets a brighter blue underdress. 
> 
> One thing that's important to remember about Catherine's sideless surcote
> is that it was part of her iconography, not a representation of anything
> worn in the 1470s. I have a lecture on this that's too long to repeat
> here, but suffice it to say that the sideless surcote went out of fashion
> almost a century earlier, having become reserved for royal ceremonial
use,
> and became frozen in art to depict ancient queens, particularly royal
> saints, such as Catherine and Ursula. I've collected hundreds of St.
> Catherines, and something like 90 percent of them are in sideless
> surcotes; it was as much of an identifier for her as the wheel, crown,
and
> sword. By the time Memling and his contemporaries were painting
Catherine,
> painting styles were much more realistic than they were when sideless
> surcotes were actually worn, and clothing construction methods had
changed
> considerably. Lacking any direct examples of *real* sideless surcotes,
> they apparently painted these dresses as they assumed they would be made
> if sewn by tailors of their own day, which bears little resemblance to
the
> way they had actually been made in the later 1300s for real people. I
> would not be surprised if Memling had the dress made up as a costume for
> his model, in which case it would have been easy enough to re-use -- or
he
> could have done it from imagination and then repainted it from the
> previous paintings. 
> 
> > OK, why is Mary Magdelene portrayed as having sleeves that are often
red or
> > another color different from the dress?
> 
> A red dress or sleeves is iconographically associated with Mary
Magdalene,
> the former prostitute, as is exotic or flashy clothing. She was one of
the
> few saints that artists could legitimately dress sexy, and the only one
of
> those who routinely appears in scenes of Christ's life, so they "went to
> town" with her. That tendency increased over the course of the 1400s. 
Her
> noticable presence and bright colors were very useful compositionally, to
> balance other elements of the painting or to draw the eye in certain
> directions. I've collected lots of Mary Magdalenes over the years too,
and
> if you place the Flemish depictions in a chronological line, you can
> clearly trace her increasingly prominent placement in the compositions,
as
> well as increasing flashiness of her dress. (Yeah, it's another lecture.)
> The most popular female Saints in the Middle Ages, after the Virgin Mary
> of course, were Catherine and Mary Magdalene, so it's easy to find
> examples, and artists had plenty of reason to codify their appearance for
> easy identification -- and lots of opportunity to play with them. 
> 
> > Also who was Sisamnes?  There is a graphic painting of him being flayed
in
> > my new fabulous (OK, I probably paid too much for it) Bruges book.  The
> > painting is called The Justice of Cambyses.  Again the people have that
> > realistic look about them, even the guy being flayed.  I wasn't sure if
it
> > was allegorical in nature.
> 
> Not allegory so much as moral tale.  This is a pair of panel paintings
> commissioned from Gerard David in 1498 for the alderman's room of the
> Bruges City Hall. They now reside in the Groening Museum (just down the
> street from the Memling Museum, and another good reason to visit Bruges,
> along with lace and waffles). Sisamnes was a Persian judge who did some
> heinous crime (I think took a bribe), and who was punished by being
flayed
> alive. The Bruges alderman chose that subject for their meeting hall as a
> reminder for the city fathers to resist corruption. I could find further
> details somewhere if someone needs them.
> 
> --Robin
> 
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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Mon Oct 11 22:38:57 1999
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Date: Mon, 11 Oct 1999 22:51:57 -0500 (CDT)
To: h-costume@indra.com
Subject: H-COST: OT: Neiman Marcus
In-Reply-To: <E11asZj-0002m3-00@mongoose.slip.net>
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-Poster: ches@io.com

Ok ladies, tomorrow morning at 730 ct or so the project that I have been
working on all this time will finally come up for public view. I need your
creative help. Look at it and send me your comments.

http://www.neimanmarcus.com

I need to know what you think of it creatively and what you are viewing it
in and how long it take to look at it in what kind of connection.

Thanks for your time!

Sincerely,
F. Havas
ches@io.com


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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Mon Oct 11 22:40:35 1999
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From: <lisaleon@hawaii.edu>
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To: h-costume@indra.com
Subject: Re: H-COST: nipples & breasts showing
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-Poster: <lisaleon@hawaii.edu>

Could someone who is knowledgeable please comment on figures 178 and 179
in QE's Wardrobe Unlock'd?  They're drawings showing a French woman
(c.1566) where the top of the bodice is completely below the breasts.
Her breasts and nipples are showing--artistic license?  

Also, what is the opening down the center front?  If it's the
smock/partlet, wouldn't it end inside the bodice where you couldn't see
it?  Even if the lady has her headpiece, girdle, gloves, etc. she gives me
the impression of not being fully dressed.

lisa

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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Mon Oct 11 23:06:29 1999
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Date: Fri, 08 Oct 1999 00:37:09 -0700
To: h-costume@indra.com
From: Carolyn Kayta Barrows <kayta@slip.net>
Subject: H-COST: no Zoot Suit patterns amywhere!!!
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-Poster: Carolyn Kayta Barrows <kayta@slip.net>

So I went down to my local cloth store to look for the Zoot Suit patterns
someone said Vogue had - and nothing!  I found the vintage section and the
men's section, but no Zoot Suit anywhere.  Butterick didn't have one (not
in their retro or men's or costume sections), Simplicity didn't have one,
and McCalls didn't have one.  So refresh my memory.  Where were these
patterns to be found?


Kayta
     ////.\\\
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   ((((   7 (((
     |   -- ))))
     * )   (((((
  /----\   /---\

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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Mon Oct 11 23:06:31 1999
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Date: Fri, 08 Oct 1999 00:28:38 -0700
To: h-costume@indra.com
From: Carolyn Kayta Barrows <kayta@slip.net>
Subject: Re: H-COST: Same Woman
In-Reply-To: <199910100502.XAA18520@net.indra.com>
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-Poster: Carolyn Kayta Barrows <kayta@slip.net>

>Wow! I just noticed the same woman in the exact same sideless surcote and
>red underdress in three separate Memling Paintings.

There's a yellow bodice with black trim in what seems like half of
Vermeer's paintings.  He must have had it in his studio as a prop.


Kayta
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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Mon Oct 11 23:16:16 1999
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Date: Mon, 11 Oct 1999 23:22:15 -0500
To: h-costume-digest@indra.com
From: Pierre & Sandy Pettinger <costumrs@radiks.net>
Subject: H-COST: Re: Tryptich
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-Poster: Pierre & Sandy Pettinger <costumrs@radiks.net>

>Memling placed the same St. Catherine in the Donne Triptych (1479, London,
>National Gallery), the altarpiece for the Hospital of St. John in Bruges
>(commissioned 1474, completed 1479, still in Bruges, where the hospital
>now houses the Memling Museum), and a smaller Virgin & Child with Saints
>at the Metropolitan Museum in New York (1480). The latter two pieces
>depict the "mystic marriage" of St. Catherine. I'm guessing that these are
>the same three paintings you're mentioning. 
>
>The St. John altarpiece was generally considered Memling's finest work and
>would have been seen by anyone coming to Bruges at that time.  Memling was
>clearly very busy in the late 1470s,.....

IIRC, There was a very nice article about Memling and the art in the former
Hospital of St. John in Bruges in last month's (Sept. 99) Smithsonian
magazine.  It might be easier to find in most libraries than some of the
books it might be in.

The art is gorgeous.

Sandy

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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Mon Oct 11 23:48:19 1999
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From: "Gia Gavino-Gattshall" <ggavino@serv.net>
To: <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [Fwd: H-COST: Same Woman]
Date: Mon, 11 Oct 1999 21:29:34 -0700
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-Poster: "Gia Gavino-Gattshall" <ggavino@serv.net>

I can help with this one:

"Velvet History Techniques Fashions" Edited by Fabrizio de' Marinis
ISBN 88-7017-115-9 (European)
ISBN 0-9627985-1-7 (US)

  Published by Idea Books

I have it and it is good source.

Gia/Giacinta 

>
>-Poster: "Carol J. Bell Cannon" <cjcannon@greymists.com>
>
>At 03:59 PM 10/11/1999 -0700, you wrote: -Poster: Merouda the True of
>Beaumaris <keltia@serv.net>
> Which Velvet book? 
>           That one, I cannot help with.
> Who's Fabrizzio? 
>           Not an author, one of those Italian artists...Ren., I believe.
>-- Carol 
> 
>

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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Tue Oct 12 00:18:49 1999
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Date: Tue, 12 Oct 1999 01:36:30 -0400
From: Janice Dallas <janicedals@mediaone.net>
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-Poster: Janice Dallas <janicedals@mediaone.net>

Found Vogue's 2367- Men's Zoot suit, at Jo-Ann's this weekend.  On sale
also!  I think it was in the catalog with women's swing outfits.  Can't
remember if that was under vintage or not, but I don't think I looked
under costumes in that book.  It looks too straight in the torso line
for what I remembered from the past.  The jacket needs more shoulders
and less waist, I think.
The wonderful Elizabethan was sold out there, of course.
-- 
Janice Dallas
JaniceDals@MediaOne.net
"Just so, the girl has beauty, virtue, wit..."
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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Tue Oct 12 00:24:40 1999
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Date: Mon, 11 Oct 1999 22:50:14 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jonna Hayden <jonna_hayden@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: H-COST: Name My Business...some of my suggestions
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-Poster: Jonna Hayden <jonna_hayden@yahoo.com>


> >
> >-Poster: Megan & David Schmidt <megan@airmail.net>
> >
> >(laughing quietly to myself....)
> >does it bother anyone that the words sewer (one who
> sews) and sewer
> >(where all the ummm...waste material goes) are
> spelled the same?  

I must tell you, when I saw this response, I fell off
my chair in a total fit of laughter, primarily because
I should know better.  You see, my DH was a *waste
water plant operator* for two small towns.  The
archeologists of the future will have a grand time
digging in our own versions of bogs--the clothes that
turn up are pretty interesting. (No, he didn't bring
me any samples!)
Now when my friends tell me I'm a great "sewer" I'll
try not to be offended or giggle.  :)

Thanks for the laugh, 

Jonna        
> 
>            

=====

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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Tue Oct 12 00:26:30 1999
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Date: Mon, 11 Oct 1999 22:52:11 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jonna Hayden <jonna_hayden@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: H-COST: Name My Business...some of my suggestions
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-Poster: Jonna Hayden <jonna_hayden@yahoo.com>


> >
> >-Poster: Megan & David Schmidt <megan@airmail.net>
> >
> >(laughing quietly to myself....)
> >does it bother anyone that the words sewer (one who
> sews) and sewer
> >(where all the ummm...waste material goes) are
> spelled the same?  

I must tell you, when I saw this response, I fell off
my chair in a total fit of laughter, primarily because
I should know better.  You see, my DH was a *waste
water plant operator* for two small towns.  The
archeologists of the future will have a grand time
digging in our own versions of bogs--the clothes that
turn up are pretty interesting. (No, he didn't bring
me any samples!)
Now when my friends tell me I'm a great "sewer" I'll
try not to be offended or giggle.  :)

Thanks for the laugh, 

Jonna        
> 
>            

=====

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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Tue Oct 12 00:37:42 1999
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From: "Kyna Grannd" <kynagrannd@granndgarb.com>
To: <h-costume@indra.com>
References: <4.1.19991008003307.00c00b40@pop.slip.net>
Subject: H-COST: New Zoot Pant and Celtic Patterns WAS Re: no Zoot Suit patterns amywhere!!!
Date: Tue, 12 Oct 1999 01:34:08 -0400
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-Poster: "Kyna Grannd" <kynagrannd@granndgarb.com>

Actually, there is one that on first glance at the pattern, appears to have
a really good set of Zoot pants. There is also another that if the lapels
are widened and lengthened, makes a decent jacket.

I'm trying in the next few days to update the reviews and also add the new
Simplicity "Retro" pattern #8952. It's designed by outside sources (Hep Wear
by Angie & Roddy). The other pattern is also of the Retro group but is not
considered a costume and I'm currently too tired and lazy to travel to the
shop to get the number ;)

I'll also be putting up pics and descriptions of the new Celtic pattern
#8913 for men. This is not a top notch kilt, but it looks like it might work
for a novice who just wants the look and not the expense or time to make one
to rule. I haven't looked at either of these well yet.

Hope this information helps someone ;)

~Kyna

Grannd Garb
Historic Clothing Supplies and Accessories
info@granndgarb.com
http://GranndGarb.com
ICQ#12859312

----- Original Message -----
From: Carolyn Kayta Barrows <kayta@slip.net>
To: <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Friday, October 08, 1999 3:37 AM
Subject: H-COST: no Zoot Suit patterns amywhere!!!


>
> -Poster: Carolyn Kayta Barrows <kayta@slip.net>
>
> So I went down to my local cloth store to look for the Zoot Suit patterns
> someone said Vogue had - and nothing!  I found the vintage section and the
> men's section, but no Zoot Suit anywhere.  Butterick didn't have one (not
> in their retro or men's or costume sections), Simplicity didn't have one,
> and McCalls didn't have one.  So refresh my memory.  Where were these
> patterns to be found?
>
>
> Kayta
>      ////.\\\
>     ////-@@\\\
>    ((((   7 (((
>      |   -- ))))
>      * )   (((((
>   /----\   /---\
>
>

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Subject: Re: H-COST: nipples & breasts showing
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-Poster: kat@grendal.rain.com


> Could someone who is knowledgeable please comment on figures 178 and 179
> in QE's Wardrobe Unlock'd?  They're drawings showing a French woman
> (c.1566) where the top of the bodice is completely below the breasts.
> Her breasts and nipples are showing--artistic license?  

Whereas the top of the breast seems to be below the breast, it is 
more likely that the breasts were pulled down into it. No nipples 
show. At first, I thought so until I realized that what was a nipple 
was actually the tie from her sleeve caps. (Either that or she has 
nipples at other places on her sleeve.)

> Also, what is the opening down the center front?  If it's the
> smock/partlet, wouldn't it end inside the bodice where you couldn't see
> it?  Even if the lady has her headpiece, girdle, gloves, etc. she gives me
> the impression of not being fully dressed.

The chemise/partlet has a front opening, but there is a necklace 
overlying it which goes partway down onto the bodice itself which 
sort of looks like an opening until you look closely at it. (The 
opening is obviously at the back. It's one of our best pictures of a 
back laced gown.)

The outfit is quite simple in design and fabric ornamentation 
compared to many clothes of the time period. I always consider this 
to be "everyday" dress, as opposed to court dress.


Kat 

Kat(June Russell)
kat@grendal.rain.com
Heu! Tintinnuntius meus Sonat!
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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Tue Oct 12 07:23:07 1999
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From: "Penny Ladnier" <penny.creative.outlets@erols.com>
To: "h-costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Cc: "Costume DC" <costumedc@onelist.com>, "Vintage" <vintage@indra.com>
Subject: H-COST: Deadline Call for Papers
Date: Tue, 12 Oct 1999 08:40:52 -0400
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-Poster: "Penny Ladnier" <penny.creative.outlets@erols.com>

Just a reminder that the deadline for the call for papers for Costume
Society of America is this Friday, Oct. 15.  For more information go to
http://www.costumesocietyamerica.com/Symposium/Call.htm

Penny Ladnier
Webmaster,  CSA

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To: h-costume@indra.com
From: Melanie Schuessler <melanie@faucet.net>
Subject: Re: H-COST: nipples & breasts showing
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-Poster: Melanie Schuessler <melanie@faucet.net>

>-Poster: <lisaleon@hawaii.edu>
>
>Could someone who is knowledgeable please comment on figures 178 and 179
>in QE's Wardrobe Unlock'd?  They're drawings showing a French woman
>(c.1566) where the top of the bodice is completely below the breasts.
>Her breasts and nipples are showing--artistic license?

I've always thought it looked like her breasts were showing, too, and I
think it's because the lines of the engraving (perhaps not the proper
technical term) seem to follow a curve around them, especially on her right
breast.  Not that that means her breasts are actually meant to be
showing--though I'm not sure I'm convinced about that being a sleeve tie
and not a nipple.

>  Even if the lady has her headpiece, girdle, gloves, etc. she gives me
>the impression of not being fully dressed.

Me, too.  I've always struggled with this picture, but the evidence seems
overwhelming (headdress, apron, gloves, pomander) that it's actually meant
to represent a fully-clad woman.  Is Enea Vico (the artist) perhaps Italian
and making a snide comment on the licentiousness of Frenchwomen?

Melanie


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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Tue Oct 12 08:26:11 1999
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Subject: H-COST: Czarist Russian Uniforms
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-Poster: Cheryldee@aol.com

Can anyone help me?  My theatre is doing a production of Checkhov's Three 
Sisters and the deal that I have arranged to rent the uniforms from New York 
has fallen through.  If you work for a costume rental house or if you're a 
employed by a theatre and might have them in your stock, I would be 
interested in hearing from you.  Recreating uniforms accurately is a royal 
pain and I'm dealing with a shop full of poorly skilled students and a 
deadline that is rapidly approaching (Nov. 24).  Thanks ahead of time.  
Cheryl Odom, Costume Designer, Santa Fe, New Mexico
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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Tue Oct 12 09:27:38 1999
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Subject: Re: H-COST: OT: Neiman Marcus
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-Poster: ches@io.com

I am so sorry for offending many of you.

All opinions are welcome, including the male population of the list!!

One of these days I will be politically correct...

Sincerely,
F. Havas
ches@io.com


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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Tue Oct 12 10:32:15 1999
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Date: Tue, 12 Oct 1999 08:48:46 -0700
From: Merouda the True of Beaumaris <keltia@serv.net>
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-Poster: Merouda the True of Beaumaris <keltia@serv.net>

>  Which Velvet book?
>            That one, I cannot help with.
>  Who's Fabrizzio?
>            Not an author, one of those Italian artists...Ren., I believe.

Fabrizzio most certainly is an author.  Of a 20th century book.  Velvet,
History and Techniques.  I posted the info on the book yesterday.

Cynthia

--
Cynthia Long
Merouda the True of Beaumaris
Barony of Madrone
Kingdom of An Tir


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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Tue Oct 12 10:56:34 1999
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Date: Tue, 12 Oct 1999 09:11:44 -0700
To: h-costume@indra.com
From: Lynn Downward <ldownward@chori.org>
Subject: Re: H-COST: no Zoot Suit patterns amywhere!!!
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-Poster: Lynn Downward <ldownward@chori.org>

>-Poster: Carolyn Kayta Barrows <kayta@slip.net>
>
>So I went down to my local cloth store to look for the Zoot Suit patterns
>someone said Vogue had - and nothing!  I found the vintage section and the
>men's section, but no Zoot Suit anywhere.  Butterick didn't have one (not
>in their retro or men's or costume sections), Simplicity didn't have one,
>and McCalls didn't have one.  So refresh my memory.  Where were these
>patterns to be found?
>
>
I just bought it last week at Joann's.  The zoot suit pattern is in the
men's section of the newest book, V 2367.  Really! It may be that your
Joann's has had their run on Vogue patterns as they're on sale for 70% off
for the next couple of weeks.  There were lots of copies at my local store.

LynnD
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Date: Tue, 12 Oct 1999 12:20:37 EDT
Subject: Re: H-COST: nipples & breasts showing
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-Poster: SNSpies@aol.com

<< There's a detailed discussion of single bare-breastedness (that is, one
 breast showing) in art in Anne Hollander's _Seeing Through Clothes_.  She
 traces it from Greek statuary to 14th Madonnas through the 18th century and
 analyzes its changing significance.  For Greeks, fashion, for Madonnas,
 maternity, for later periods sensuality and even "a look of instability,
 useful for connoting terror or license or devotional zeal." (!)  (p. 191) >>

What comes immediately to mind here is the symbol of France, the lady with 
her breast(s) exposed, carrying a flag, leading the troups, etc.

Nancy
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Date: Tue, 12 Oct 1999 09:25:24 -0700
Subject: Re: H-COST: Name My Business...some of my suggestions
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-Poster: "R.L. Shep" <rlshep@home.com>

*The sewer sat in the sewer*  The Smithsonian called them *heteronyms*, but
I now find that they are being called*homographs* in England. We used to
find them and make up sentences like *Art objects to art objects!*
If anyone is really interested in this problem in the English language where
a word can have 2 spellings and 2 meanings you can check it out at a
wonderful site I recently found
http://www.stir.ac.uk/celt/staff/higdox/wordlist/homogrph.htm
~!~ R.L.Shep
http://www.rlshep.com

----------
>From: "Michelle" <mandrake@mypad.com>
>To: <h-costume@indra.com>
>Subject: Re: H-COST: Name My Business...some of my suggestions
>Date: Mon, Oct 11, 1999, 5:27 PM
>

>
>-Poster: "Michelle" <mandrake@mypad.com>
>
>
>>-Poster: Megan & David Schmidt <megan@airmail.net>
>>
>>(laughing quietly to myself....)
>>does it bother anyone that the words sewer (one who sews) and sewer
>>(where all the ummm...waste material goes) are spelled the same?  All I
>>could think of is an archeological dig at a waste water plant where one
>>centuries from now, they examined all the clothing that was flushed down
>>the toilet or eaten by the washing machine.
>
>
>Yes, that is why I always write seamstress instead. It isn't as offensive
to
>the ears.
>Michelle
>


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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Tue Oct 12 12:12:59 1999
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From: "Cynthia Barnes" <Cynthia_Barnes@phoenix.com>
To: <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: H-COST: detailed discussion of clothing in art
Date: Tue, 12 Oct 1999 10:25:37 -0700
Message-ID: <000001bf14d6$cef8c530$6b037a86@phoenix.com>
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-Poster: "Cynthia Barnes" <Cynthia_Barnes@phoenix.com>

>There's a detailed discussion of single bare-breastedness (that is, one
breast showing) in art in Anne Hollander's _Seeing Through Clothes_.

A very nifty volume covering a similar topic specifically for illuminated
manuscripts is Odile Blanc's _Parades et Parures_.  It may well have been
translated in to English. Dr. Blanc works at the Musee de Tissue in Lyon.
She specifically emphases mid 14thc thru 15th c garments, w/ an emphasis,
unsurprisingly, on France.

>... the entire book is very intriguing--Hollander analyzes through art
history different ways of portraying the body, dressed and undressed, and
how those related to each other and the viewers in each context.

I would say the same about Dr Blanc's book. She specifically covers such
topics as how to distinguish the allegorical, exotic or fantastic from the
real people, conventions of dress & undress, every day dress vs. ritual
garments (wedding, funeral, coronation, baptism, etc) and symbolism.
--cin
Cynthia Barnes
408.570.1023
Cynthia_Barnes@phoenix.com
Phoenix Technologies
411 E. Plumeria Dr.
San Jose CA 95134
"I think animal testing is a terrible idea; they get all nervous and
give the wrong answers."


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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Tue Oct 12 12:13:55 1999
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-Poster: Lyssa@mgram.com

Hello,

Sorry to bother the list with this, but I'm looking for the list owner.
My email address changed and after following the directions for
unsubscribing and resubscribing to the digest I have a problem.  The
resubscribe was successful, but because my address wasn't the same as
the one I was unsubscribing, that failed.  I am now receiving 2 copies
of each digest.  I tried emailing the address for the list owner in one
of my saved messages, but haven't received a response.  I think the
address was probably wrong.  Does anyone have the list owner's address?

Thanks!
Maggie

lyssa@mgram.com  (formerly lyssa@kktv.com)
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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Tue Oct 12 12:23:05 1999
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Date: Tue, 12 Oct 1999 10:42:06 -0700
To: h-costume@indra.com
From: Carolyn Kayta Barrows <kayta@slip.net>
Subject: H-COST: minikin patterns
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-Poster: Carolyn Kayta Barrows <kayta@slip.net>

I was looking thru my boxes of older patterns, and I discovered some
'minikin' patterns.  Minikins were those mini-manikins fabric stores used
to dress in small versions of the dresses for which they sold patterns,
right?  If so, are the minikins themselves still available in antique
stores?  As in, has anyone seen one?  How tall were they?  (I forget - 18"
or 24" sounds about right.)


Kayta
     ////.\\\
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     |   -- ))))
     * )   (((((
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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Tue Oct 12 12:23:15 1999
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Date: Tue, 12 Oct 1999 10:22:26 -0700
To: h-costume@indra.com
From: Carolyn Kayta Barrows <kayta@slip.net>
Subject: Re: H-COST: no Zoot Suit patterns amywhere!!!
In-Reply-To: <v04011700b4290da74187@[172.19.1.106]>
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-Poster: Carolyn Kayta Barrows <kayta@slip.net>


>>So I went down to my local cloth store to look for the Zoot Suit patterns
>>someone said Vogue had - and nothing!  I found the vintage section and the
>>men's section, but no Zoot Suit anywhere.  Butterick didn't have one (not
>>in their retro or men's or costume sections), Simplicity didn't have one,
>>and McCalls didn't have one.  So refresh my memory.  Where were these
>>patterns to be found?
>>
>>
>I just bought it last week at Joann's.  The zoot suit pattern is in the
>men's section of the newest book, V 2367.  Really! It may be that your
>Joann's has had their run on Vogue patterns as they're on sale for 70% off
>for the next couple of weeks.  There were lots of copies at my local store.

I too was at a JoAnn's, and I didn't find any Zoot Suit-like objects in
their catalog.  None of their pattern catalogs had them.  My friend
couldn't find them either.  I did not go thru all the patterns they had in
the drawers because my Sweetie was waiting for us.

I will take all the replies I got, mine them for pattern numbers, and try
again.

I really liked how Butterick had re-used the original pattern
illustrations.  Almost made me want to be scrawny-thin, and make some of
the garments to wear.  Problem is my bones aren't that narrow, hips or
ribs.  Barbie's scrawny-thin enough to look like a pattern envelope person,
and her legs are long enough.

Vogue had some wonderfully correct historical doll clothes, and some not so
good ones.


Kayta
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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Tue Oct 12 12:43:10 1999
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Date: Tue, 12 Oct 1999 14:00:36 -0400
From: Janice Dallas <janicedals@mediaone.net>
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-Poster: Janice Dallas <janicedals@mediaone.net>

I believe they were supposed to be half the measurement size of the
average woman, so about 30"+ would seem right.
-- 
Janice Dallas
JaniceDals@MediaOne.net
"Just so, the girl has beauty, virtue, wit..."
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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Tue Oct 12 13:10:53 1999
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From: "Kyna Grannd" <kynagrannd@granndgarb.com>
To: <h-costume@indra.com>
References: <4.1.19991008003307.00c00b40@pop.slip.net> <4.1.19991012101205.00c0d900@pop.slip.net>
Subject: Re: H-COST: no Zoot Suit patterns amywhere!!!
Date: Tue, 12 Oct 1999 14:05:55 -0400
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-Poster: "Kyna Grannd" <kynagrannd@granndgarb.com>


> -Poster: Carolyn Kayta Barrows <kayta@slip.net>
>
> I too was at a JoAnn's, and I didn't find any Zoot Suit-like objects in
> their catalog.  None of their pattern catalogs had them.  My friend
> couldn't find them either.  I did not go thru all the patterns they had in
> the drawers because my Sweetie was waiting for us.
>

My Joann's got the book and patterns in yesterday but they were still in the
boxes ::grins:: I'm so known I was allowed to open and peak. The Rag Shop
across the highway didn't have the new WINTER Simplicity book or
patterns....*BUT* the Rag Shop closer to my house *HAD* the new Winter
catalog *AND* the patterns.  Keep checking, your store just hasn't received
the new shipment from Simplicity yet, but should any day.

It's pattern #8952 from the Retro Costume Collection. The other one I
mentioned in a different email is pattern #8879 from the Retro Fashion
Collection. The second has pretty good pants and a jacket that has a less
flamboyant lapel than some I've seen, but does match some old photos I've
dug up.

~Kyna

--
Grannd Garb
Historic Clothing Supplies and Accessories
http://granndgarb.com


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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Tue Oct 12 14:48:54 1999
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From: "StitchWitch" <stitchwitch@excite.com>
To: h-costume@indra.com
Subject: Re: H-COST: minikin patterns
Message-Id: <939758107.9118.199@excite.com>
Date: Tue, 12 Oct 1999 12:55:07 PDT
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-Poster: "StitchWitch" <stitchwitch@excite.com>


> 
> I was looking thru my boxes of older patterns, and I discovered some
> 'minikin' patterns.  Minikins were those mini-manikins fabric stores used
> to dress in small versions of the dresses for which they sold patterns,
> right?  If so, are the minikins themselves still available in antique
> stores?  As in, has anyone seen one?  How tall were they?  (I forget -
18"
> or 24" sounds about right.)

I have seen something similar in high-end gift shops. Seems miniature sewing
bits are becoming 'fashionable' as a decorating item. (Which doesn't bother
ME in the slightest! ;)

Kate
----
StitchWitch

A learned bastard takes precedence over an ignorant high priest. - The
Talmud, 5th Cen.




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          for <h-costume@indra.com>; Tue, 12 Oct 1999 12:59:22 -0700
From: "StitchWitch" <stitchwitch@excite.com>
To: h-costume@indra.com
Subject: Funny Looks (was Re: H-COST: no Zoot Suit patterns amywhere!!!)
Message-Id: <939758361.24793.377@excite.com>
Date: Tue, 12 Oct 1999 12:59:21 PDT
X-Mailer: Excite Mail
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-Poster: "StitchWitch" <stitchwitch@excite.com>


> My Joann's got the book and patterns in yesterday but they were still in
the
> boxes ::grins:: I'm so known I was allowed to open and peak. The Rag Shop
> across the highway didn't have the new WINTER Simplicity book or
> patterns....*BUT* the Rag Shop closer to my house *HAD* the new Winter
> catalog *AND* the patterns.  Keep checking, your store just hasn't
received
> the new shipment from Simplicity yet, but should any day.

I've been so happy with the information on this list, the pattern numbers
being only a small part of it. But this 'inside info' has gotten me some odd
looks from the staff at my favorite local fabric shops. Seems *I* have the
information about the coming patterns before they do! 

Thank you all!

Kate
----
StitchWitch

A learned bastard takes precedence over an ignorant high priest. - The
Talmud, 5th Cen.




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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Tue Oct 12 15:00:25 1999
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Date: Tue, 12 Oct 1999 14:10:35 -0600 (MDT)
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From: Julie Brautigan <jab@uwm.edu>
To: h-costume@indra.com
Subject: Re: H-COST: minikin patterns
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-Poster: Julie Brautigan <jab@uwm.edu>


This sounds like a small mannekin a friend of mine gave me about 15 years
ago.  I believe he said it found it in an antique store.  It is about 18"
tall, has a composition body, and the only parts that move are the arms.  I
don't remember if the hair is molded or not.  I believe he said something
about it being a "dressmaker's mannekin".

Julie Brautigan

Carolyn Kayta Barrows wrote:

> -Poster: Carolyn Kayta Barrows <kayta@slip.net>
>
> I was looking thru my boxes of older patterns, and I discovered some
> 'minikin' patterns.  Minikins were those mini-manikins fabric stores used
> to dress in small versions of the dresses for which they sold patterns,
> right?  If so, are the minikins themselves still available in antique
> stores?  As in, has anyone seen one?  How tall were they?  (I forget - 18"
> or 24" sounds about right.)
>
> Kayta

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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Tue Oct 12 15:17:03 1999
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Date: Tue, 12 Oct 1999 16:35:44 -0400
To: h-costume@indra.com
From: "Marsha J. Hamilton" <mhamilto@pop.service.ohio-state.edu>
Subject: Re: H-COST: 17th Century Groups (long)
In-Reply-To: <19990914011037.15141.rocketmail@web1401.mail.yahoo.com>
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-Poster: "Marsha J. Hamilton" <mhamilto@pop.service.ohio-state.edu>

Someone asked me for addresses for 17th century groups, so
for folks less familiar with the US reenactor scene, I suggest...

"Smoke and Fire News" a monthly "international listing of
living history events."  Their address is P.O. Box 166,
Grand Rapids, Ohio  43522 (USA).  

It's small newspaper format and my October issue was 48 pages
including many b&w photos of costumed folks from various events. 
They cover all periods, including timeline events from Roman to the 
Gulf War.  There are several pages of ads in the back, some with 
websites, to peruse period reproduction items and services for purchase.

For the "Cavalier period" five organizations are listed under the 
heading: 17th Century Living History Organizations.  They are:

Cavalier Association (17th century)
Mark & Jennie Gist
46 Fallis Road
Columbus, OH 43214  USA
e-mail:  73357.3446@compuserve.com
  (I belong to this group.  I don't know the other groups.)

Brethren of the Coast
"Pirate Portrayals"
Patricia Atkinson
2211 N. Cahuenga Blvd. #203
Los Angeles, CA  90068-2775  USA

The Modern Aviso
subscription $9 per year
Leigh Tartaglio
1 Evergreen Ave.
E.H.T., N. J.  08234-7244  USA
e-mail: aviso@dandy.net

Hapsburg Society
Chuck Young
212 W. Eueka St.
Champaign, IL  61820-2932  USA

No Quarter Given
Pirate Newsletter
c/o Christine Markel Lampe
PO Box 7456
Riverside, CA 92513-7456  USA
(909) 785-1233

There may be others out there who don't list themselves in Smoke & Fire
but I bet the people who list their groups could tell you.
S&F lists international events but the coverage for the US is better.
The Oct. issue has short articles and pictures for reenactments at
Kalamazoo, Culloden '99, "Lee vs. Grant" [American CW], Southern California 
Renaissance Pleasure Faire, Tewkesbury, Colonial Williamburg, Battle of 
New Orleans, Rendezvous in the Rouge, Seven Year's War, Yorktown, 
Mississinewa 1812, Rockome Gardens Pow Wow, and the Wyatt Earp Birthplace.

I don't have any affiliation with them but I'm a satisfied subscriber.



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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Tue Oct 12 15:19:49 1999
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From: "Penny Ladnier" <penny.creative.outlets@erols.com>
To: "VGP list" <VGP@onelist.com>
Cc: "h-costume" <h-costume@indra.com>, "Vintage" <vintage@indra.com>,
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Subject: H-COST: Worm Virus
Date: Tue, 12 Oct 1999 16:20:31 -0400
MIME-Version: 1.0
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	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
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-Poster: "Penny Ladnier" <penny.creative.outlets@erols.com>

Sorry for the bulk posting, but this is very important!

PLEASE do not open any email with attachments that read....

"I hope you enjoy these links."  in the body area of the email.

DELETE the message immediately.

This is the worm virus, and it just hit one of the large lists I am on.  I
received 6 messages today with the virus from this one email list.  I did
not open them.  If you do open the attachment, the virus is passed on to
everyone in your address book, including the lists you are on.  Maybe our
listmom might consider moderating the list carefully for this message.

Its a good day to back up your files.

Please be cautious...  Penny Ladnier




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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Tue Oct 12 15:37:18 1999
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Date: Mon, 11 Oct 1999 15:17:56 -0400
To: h-costume@indra.com
From: Danielle Nunn <dnunn@interlog.com>
Subject: Re: H-COST: Name My Business...some of my suggestions
In-Reply-To: <199910111512.IAA22293@apollo.directcon.net>
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-Poster: Danielle Nunn <dnunn@interlog.com>


>>the toilet or eaten by the washing machine.
>
>Maybe they could solve the mystery of Where The Socks Go....

Didn't you know?  They get transformed into metal hangers.  ;)

Cheers,
Danielle

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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Tue Oct 12 15:44:10 1999
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Date: Tue, 12 Oct 1999 16:03:56 -0500 (CDT)
From: Emma Elizabeth Lehman <00217146@bigred.unl.edu>
To: h-costume@indra.com
Subject: Re: H-COST: minikin patterns (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.3.96.991012160312.14668J-100000@bigred.unl.edu>
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-Poster: Emma Elizabeth Lehman <00217146@bigred.unl.edu>


My mother, the doll collector, has this to say:

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Tue, 12 Oct 1999 16:55:53 -0400
From: Tish Lehman <pvl@umich.edu>
To: Emma Elizabeth Lehman <00217146@bigred.unl.edu>
Subject: Re: H-COST: minikin patterns (fwd)

Besides being used in the stores to illustrate clothes (just as Buddy Lee
was used to illustrate for work clothes since 1914), they were also sold
for little girls to learn to sew with. The 18" size is so much easier to
sew for than the 12", which is much better than the 8" hard plastic ones.

I don't see them often, but when I have, they've been cheap enough for even
me to afford.  I have owned an 18" one (with arms) that I regret selling,
and now have the 12" one, which isn't quite as cool.   Except I do like the
14C twist her body makes.  Look at the Virgin statues, and you'll see what
I mean.  Shoulders, waist, hips, knees, each a gentle turn from the line of
the head.   

She recently showed up in Ursula Mertz's book on compo dolls accompanied by
the original box.  I can't remember the exact name (the book's at home) but
the 12" one had a name like Sally McCall or Alice McCall.  She was, of
course, sold in a little cardboard suitcase with some scraps of trim and
cloth and a McCall's pattern.


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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Tue Oct 12 15:54:53 1999
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Date: Tue, 12 Oct 1999 16:14:00 -0500 (CDT)
From: Emma Elizabeth Lehman <00217146@bigred.unl.edu>
To: h-costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: H-COST: Worm Virus
In-Reply-To: <00e901bf14ef$3dcdcce0$3bf4accf@e4c2n6>
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.3.96.991012161108.14668N-100000@bigred.unl.edu>
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-Poster: Emma Elizabeth Lehman <00217146@bigred.unl.edu>


This reads like a hoax, but I couldn't find it on any of my usual sources
for internet hoaxes.  I did however find this:
http://www.stiller.com/explorer.htm

It discribes and explains a *real* virus, similar to the one discribed
previously under this subject heading.  

The important thing to remember is to never open executable attachments 
you didn't specifically request, even if they're from a friend.

Hope this helped, and didn't just contribute to the vast supply of
existing spam.
Emma


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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Tue Oct 12 16:02:19 1999
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Date: Tue, 12 Oct 1999 14:17:28 -0700
To: h-costume@indra.com
From: Lynn Downward <ldownward@chori.org>
Subject: Re: H-COST: minikin patterns (fwd)
Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com
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-Poster: Lynn Downward <ldownward@chori.org>

>-Poster: Emma Elizabeth Lehman <00217146@bigred.unl.edu>
>
>
>My mother, the doll collector, has this to say:
>
>---------- Forwarded message ----------
>Date: Tue, 12 Oct 1999 16:55:53 -0400
>From: Tish Lehman <pvl@umich.edu>
>To: Emma Elizabeth Lehman <00217146@bigred.unl.edu>
>Subject: Re: H-COST: minikin patterns (fwd)
>
>Besides being used in the stores to illustrate clothes (just as Buddy Lee
>was used to illustrate for work clothes since 1914), they were also sold
>for little girls to learn to sew with. The 18" size is so much easier to
>sew for than the 12", which is much better than the 8" hard plastic ones.
>
>I don't see them often, but when I have, they've been cheap enough for even
>me to afford.  I have owned an 18" one (with arms) that I regret selling,
>and now have the 12" one, which isn't quite as cool.   Except I do like the
>14C twist her body makes.  Look at the Virgin statues, and you'll see what
>I mean.  Shoulders, waist, hips, knees, each a gentle turn from the line of
>the head.
>
>She recently showed up in Ursula Mertz's book on compo dolls accompanied by
>the original box.  I can't remember the exact name (the book's at home) but
>the 12" one had a name like Sally McCall or Alice McCall.  She was, of
>course, sold in a little cardboard suitcase with some scraps of trim and
>cloth and a McCall's pattern.
>
Betsy McCall.  I got to cut the paperdolls from the McCall's magazine every
month after my mother read the magazine.  McCalls also sells a pattern for
an 14-18" stuffed doll named Betsy McCall with several patterns for
different types of clothes, including historic clothing (prairie girl,
etc.).

Lynn
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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Tue Oct 12 17:06:13 1999
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From: "Penny Ladnier" <penny.creative.outlets@erols.com>
To: <h-costume@indra.com>
References: <Pine.OSF.3.96.991012161108.14668N-100000@bigred.unl.edu>
Subject: Re: H-COST: Worm Virus
Date: Tue, 12 Oct 1999 18:22:31 -0400
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-Poster: "Penny Ladnier" <penny.creative.outlets@erols.com>

I wish it were a hoax but it isn't.  It happened today on a DC web tech list
with over 1,000 members.  I am just deleting everything from that list now.
Everytime the computer with the virus is rebooted, it regenerates the
message back out to the list.  If you go to the McAfee (sp) website you will
find more information and an upgrade for the virus.  I am sorry I didn't
keep the URL, because I don't use their software.  The virus has been around
since July 1999.  It is also known by Trojan Horse virus.

Later... Penny

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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Tue Oct 12 17:06:13 1999
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Date: Tue, 12 Oct 1999 17:29:34 -0500 (CDT)
From: Robin Netherton <robin@shell.nightowl.net>
To: h-costume@indra.com
Subject: Re: H-COST: Re: Tryptich
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19991011232215.0077b078@radiks.net>
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-Poster: Robin Netherton <robin@shell.nightowl.net>


I wrote:
> >Memling placed the same St. Catherine in the Donne Triptych (1479, London,
> >National Gallery), the altarpiece for the Hospital of St. John in Bruges
> >(commissioned 1474, completed 1479, still in Bruges, where the hospital
> >now houses the Memling Museum)...

Pierre & Sandy Pettinger wrote:
> IIRC, There was a very nice article about Memling and the art in the former
> Hospital of St. John in Bruges in last month's (Sept. 99) Smithsonian
> magazine.  It might be easier to find in most libraries than some of the
> books it might be in.

I immediately dashed to the Smithsonian site to view this, but I found no
Memling. I did, however, find an article on the Isenheim Altarpiece,
created by Matthias Grunewald for a hospital chapel in Colmar, France, in
the early 1500s. Different time, different place, different artist, but it
was a hospital altarpiece at least. The Smithsonian website doesn't show
the art, alas, but links to a few partial images in the Webmuseum. 

--Robin

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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Tue Oct 12 17:10:40 1999
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Message-ID: <0.5f904594.25350f5f@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 12 Oct 1999 18:25:35 EDT
Subject: Re: H-COST: Sari Silk
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-Poster: Appin1@aol.com

I made aTudor gown from a sari for a friend of mine. Several problems: 1) It 
really has to be lined, interfaced, etc. because it is thin. 2) Since it is 
only SO LONG, you have to lay out cut it very carefully; the sari works 
better for smaller ladies. 3) Since it has a border or two borders, you have 
to be very careful laying out the pattern & cutting it. 4) You should find a 
border design that does not scream SARI.

The one I made turned out pretty well, but I would have liked a few more 
yards for the skirt -- I felt it was a bit skimpy. It was red with metallic 
borders and I combined it with red satin and gold trim. The person I made it 
for was delighted and it looked good. There was not enough fabric left over 
to blow your nose on. 

Kathleen Norvell
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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Tue Oct 12 17:13:35 1999
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Date: Tue, 12 Oct 1999 18:28:27 EDT
Subject: Re: H-COST: Banner Silk--Slightly OT
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-Poster: Appin1@aol.com

I would suggest a silk taffeta. It is the proper weight and texture.

Kathleen Norvell
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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Tue Oct 12 17:22:07 1999
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Date: Tue, 12 Oct 1999 15:39:41 -0700
From: Merouda the True of Beaumaris <keltia@serv.net>
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-Poster: Merouda the True of Beaumaris <keltia@serv.net>

> 3) Since it has a border or two borders, you have
> to be very careful laying out the pattern & cutting it. 4) You should find a
> border design that does not scream SARI.

Which reminds me.  We were discussing earlier that Elizabethan didn't have
borders like the borders used in saris.  But I was looking through one of my
books the other day, Thomasina Beck's _The Embroiderer's Story_, and there was a
color picture of a lady in one of those cool embroidered jackets with a red
skirt with a border down the front opening and along the hem that reminded me
exactly of sari borders.  Take a look if you have the book and tell me what you
think.  And no, I don't know of a website with the picture.  Sorry.  :}

And it sounds just like what she described.  Red with gold borders.

Cynthia
--
Cynthia Long
Merouda the True of Beaumaris
Barony of Madrone
Kingdom of An Tir


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Date: Tue, 12 Oct 1999 19:19:23 EDT
Subject: Re: H-COST: Sari Silk
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-Poster: AlbertCat@aol.com

In a message dated 10/12/1999 6:28:12 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
Appin1@aol.com writes:

<< Several problems: 1) It 
 really has to be lined, interfaced, etc. because it is thin. 2) Since it is 
 only SO LONG, you have to lay out cut it very carefully; the sari works 
 better for smaller ladies. 3) Since it has a border or two borders, you have 
 to be very careful laying out the pattern & cutting it. >>

Problems??? Sounds like business as usual to me. :-)
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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Tue Oct 12 20:20:47 1999
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Date: Tue, 12 Oct 1999 20:40:33 -0500 (CDT)
From: Emma Elizabeth Lehman <00217146@bigred.unl.edu>
To: h-costume@indra.com
Subject: Re: H-COST: minikin patterns (fwd)
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-Poster: Emma Elizabeth Lehman <00217146@bigred.unl.edu>


More from my doll-collecting mother

---------- Forwarded message ----------

To continue:

The Betsy McCall paper doll printed every monthin the fifties had 
dresses made from patterns for life-sized dresses, and has also 
been a terrific doll in three dimensions in at least three versions 
besides the cloth one your friend tells about.  She's currently a very 
hot item among doll collectors, especially in the sixties 6" version 
with lingerie but the maniquin (or minikin, as one of your buddies 
put it) is not Betsy but a predecessor. 

That one (I'm home with my book now) was Peggy McCall.  I quote 
from the 1943 advertisment showing Peggy in a bifold box.   The 
left wing of the box has three pieces of cloth and a booklet entitled 
"McCall: Tricks in Sewing."  The right wing has three patterns for 
doll-sized dresses.  The middle shows the manikin (girlikin?) tied 
naked into the middle, with a dress form in her size, two spools of 
thread, a package marked Talon, and two things I can't make out. 

The text says "This fascinating, educational toy crashes the field 
with terrific appeal to the small fry and the teen-age, as well! 
"Peggy," an adorable manikin 13" high, with detatchable arms, is 
available in a variety of strikingly packaged sets complete with real 
MCCALL Dressmaker patterns and grown-up sewing accessories. 
 Outstanding dealer helps and plenty of publicity in Parents', 
Mademoiselle, McCall's, House and Garden, movie magazines, 
True Confessions, and others.  Sets priced to retail from $1.50 to 
$5.00"

There's also an ad from 1942 selling "Peggy," the Fashion Model 
Sewing Box ($1, $3, or $5).  This appears to be a sturdy 
semicircular sewing box into which Peggy (blonde or brunette) fits, 
along with needles, thread, etc.  and "a descriptive booklet carrying 
a message to young Americans who are just learning to sew.  
Because of the great interest in home sewing which is now 
apparent, this new line of sewing boxes ... willl be of special interest 
to toybuyers."  By the way, "All boxes are carried out in red, white, 
and blue -- patriotic design." " Attractive displays showing Peggy 
fully dressed are available."

The fully dressed Peggys are wearing, respectively, a nun-like 
student nurse outfit, and a dark skirt with clunky white top.

The quality is really pretty chintzy, as composition dolls go, even for 
wartime America.  But I do like her anyway, and wish I had her arms.

Mom


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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Tue Oct 12 20:25:28 1999
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From: "Megan McHugh" <mmchugh@starpower.net>
To: <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: H-COST: no Zoot Suit patterns amywhere!!!
Date: Tue, 12 Oct 1999 21:22:53 -0400
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-Poster: "Megan McHugh" <mmchugh@starpower.net>

>So I went down to my local cloth store to look for the Zoot Suit patterns
>someone said Vogue had - and nothing!  I found the vintage section and the
>men's section, but no Zoot Suit anywhere.  Butterick didn't have one (not
>in their retro or men's or costume sections), Simplicity didn't have one,
>and McCalls didn't have one.  So refresh my memory.  Where were these
>patterns to be found?


I was wondering the same thing.  I also had a fruitless search this past
weekend at JoAnn's.

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Date: Tue, 12 Oct 1999 21:23:38 -0500
To: h-costume@indra.com
From: Melanie Schuessler <melanie@faucet.net>
Subject: Re: H-COST: nipples & breasts showing
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-Poster: Melanie Schuessler <melanie@faucet.net>

>-Poster: SNSpies@aol.com
>
><< There's a detailed discussion of single bare-breastedness (that is, one
> breast showing) in art in Anne Hollander's _Seeing Through Clothes_.

>What comes immediately to mind here is the symbol of France, the lady with
>her breast(s) exposed, carrying a flag, leading the troups, etc.

Of this one, Hollander comments that there is not enough material in her
dress to actually cover her bosom or her bare, flag-waving arm, but that
Delacroix deliberately designed her costume as "uneven in design,
suggesting Classical rags proper to a working-class goddess."  Delacroix
made an interesting compromise here--the garment she wears looks like it
_could_ be an actual dress (of the negligee style, perhaps) but she wears
it like old-school Classical Drapery.  Hollander continues "Furthermore,
her exposed bosom could never have been denuded by the exertions of the
moment; rather, the exposure itself, built into the costume, is an original
part of her essence--at once holy, desirable, and fierce."  (p. 202)
Sounds like Joan of Arc, which actually may not be too far off.

Painting (and other forms of art) seems to require quite a bit of costume
design--it's been great to hear analyses of various fashion confections and
how real they might have been.

Melanie


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Subject: H-COST: 16th century fencing garments
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-Poster: Melanie Schuessler <melanie@faucet.net>

Hello, the List!

A question for you:  a gentleman here is looking for research on 16th
century fencing garments--that is, anything that would have been worn
specifically for rapier fighting.  Since I know nothing at all about this,
I put it to you.  This gentleman is not on the list, so please mail him
directly at sohei@execpc.com

(I am sending him a reconstructed version of the "blackened linen" thread,
though it's a bit early.)

Many Thanks
Melanie


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Date: Tue, 12 Oct 1999 17:14:45 -0400
To: h-costume@indra.com
From: Danielle Nunn <dnunn@interlog.com>
Subject: Re: H-COST: nipples & breasts showing
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-Poster: Danielle Nunn <dnunn@interlog.com>

Greetings,

>Could someone who is knowledgeable please comment on figures 178 and 179
>in QE's Wardrobe Unlock'd?  They're drawings showing a French woman
>(c.1566) where the top of the bodice is completely below the breasts.
>Her breasts and nipples are showing--artistic license?  

It's hard to say because the artist obviously has difficulty with
proportion.  However, there seems to be some evidence for this sort of
"daring" by some women from a couple of countries in the 16th century.  I
can't think of concrete evidence off hand.

>Also, what is the opening down the center front?  If it's the
>smock/partlet, wouldn't it end inside the bodice where you couldn't see
>it?  Even if the lady has her headpiece, girdle, gloves, etc. she gives
>me the impression of not being fully dressed.

I would definitely say she is fully dressed - one doesn't usually wear an
apron in their undress.  ;)  But, I would say it is a smock/partlet with
her chain (necklace) being worn over it.  I'm not clear about your
statement "...smock/partlet, wouldn't it end inside the bodice where you
couldn't see it?"  Her bodice appears to be over the undergarment when I
look at it.

Cheers,
Danielle

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From: Joan M Jurancich <joanj@quiknet.com>
Subject: Lady in red skirt, was Re: H-COST: Sari Silk
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-Poster: Joan M Jurancich <joanj@quiknet.com>

At 03:39 PM 10/12/99 -0700, Merouda the True of Beaumaris wrote:
>
>-Poster: Merouda the True of Beaumaris <keltia@serv.net>
>
>> 3) Since it has a border or two borders, you have
>> to be very careful laying out the pattern & cutting it. 4) You should find a
>> border design that does not scream SARI.
>
>Which reminds me.  We were discussing earlier that Elizabethan didn't have
>borders like the borders used in saris.  But I was looking through one of my
>books the other day, Thomasina Beck's _The Embroiderer's Story_, and there
was a
>color picture of a lady in one of those cool embroidered jackets with a red
>skirt with a border down the front opening and along the hem that reminded me
>exactly of sari borders.  Take a look if you have the book and tell me what you
>think.  And no, I don't know of a website with the picture.  Sorry.  :}
>
>And it sounds just like what she described.  Red with gold borders.
>
>Cynthia

The only picture I can find that approximates your description is on page
11; while I can see a gold-embroidered pattern around the bottom of the
skirt, there does not seem to be any front opening. The pattern does have an
Indian look to it. According to the caption, this picture is "said to be
Arabella Stuart, wearing a jacket trimed with cutwork. Portrait attributed
to Marcus Gheeraerts, c. 1605."  This is just after Elizabeth's reign (she
died in 1603). 

There is another lady in red with gold lace on page 21, but the portrait is
dated 1610. And she is wearing a red gown, not just a skirt, and the
"edging" of the hem looks to be the lining of the gown (looks like a brocade
to me) finished to show on the outside.

Joan Jurancich
Sacramento, CA
joanj@quiknet.com

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-Poster: <lisaleon@hawaii.edu>

> her chain (necklace) being worn over it.  I'm not clear about your
> statement "...smock/partlet, wouldn't it end inside the bodice where you
> couldn't see it?"  Her bodice appears to be over the undergarment when I
> look at it.

	Yes, I agree.  I was wondering about the "thing" down the center
front from her neck.  If it's a necklace, that explains it.  I was puzzled
because since the bodice does appear to go over the undergarment, if the
"thing" was the center front opening of said undergarment, it made no
sense that we'd be able to see it.  But if it's a chain hanging over the
bodice I understand.

thanks,
lisa

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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Wed Oct 13 05:16:14 1999
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-Poster: Patrizia and Mark Nickel <costumes@wi.net>

Could anyone on the list tell me which town Sirs Fabrics is in.  I know its
located somewhere in Tennessee, and I will be traveling to Nashville tomorrow!

Thanks!



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Date: Wed, 13 Oct 1999 09:19:48 -0400 (EDT)
From: aleed <aleed@dnaco.net>
To: h-costume@indra.com
Subject: Re: H-COST: 16th century fencing garments
In-Reply-To: <v03007833b429a9f366c7@[209.207.57.206]>
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-Poster: aleed <aleed@dnaco.net>


In Janet Arnold's "Patterns of Fashion 1560-1620", she has descriptions,
pictures and pattern layouts of two or three fencing doublets. They're
from around 1600-1610.

Hope this helps,

Drea



On Tue, 12 Oct 1999, Melanie Schuessler wrote:

> 
> -Poster: Melanie Schuessler <melanie@faucet.net>
> 
> Hello, the List!
> 
> A question for you:  a gentleman here is looking for research on 16th
> century fencing garments--that is, anything that would have been worn
> specifically for rapier fighting.  Since I know nothing at all about this,
> I put it to you.  This gentleman is not on the list, so please mail him
> directly at sohei@execpc.com
> 
> (I am sending him a reconstructed version of the "blackened linen" thread,
> though it's a bit early.)
> 
> Many Thanks
> Melanie

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-Poster: Margo Anderson <margo@directcon.net>


>
>I would definitely say she is fully dressed - one doesn't usually wear an
>apron in their undress.  ;)  But, I would say it is a smock/partlet with
>her chain (necklace) being worn over it.  I'm not clear about your
>statement "...smock/partlet, wouldn't it end inside the bodice where you
>couldn't see it?"  Her bodice appears to be over the undergarment when I
>look at it.
>
>

Also there are a few (not many, but a few) instances of partlets, even sheer
linen ones, worn over the bodice, not tucked in.  I don't think that's
what's happening here, though; I think the problem is bad art.  This also
may be charicature.  Look at the back view, and the way her skirt is
stretched so tight over her farthingale  that the lower edge is forced up,
showing the hoop.

I've seen this picture many times, and it never made me think her breasts
were showing.  Could it be that I have a clean mind?  Nah....

Margo

"One Tough Costumer"
http://www.directcon.net/wander/main.htm

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Subject: H-COST: Sirs fabrics
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-Poster: VICKI@lib.uttyl.edu

Sirs fabric store is in Fayetteville, TN, down near the Alabama line.

Vicki Betts
vicki@lib.uttyl.edu
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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Wed Oct 13 10:19:23 1999
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Date: Wed, 13 Oct 1999 08:36:59 -0700
From: Merouda the True of Beaumaris <keltia@serv.net>
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To: h-costume@indra.com
Subject: Re: Lady in red skirt, was Re: H-COST: Sari Silk
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-Poster: Merouda the True of Beaumaris <keltia@serv.net>

> The only picture I can find that approximates your description is on page
> 11; while I can see a gold-embroidered pattern around the bottom of the
> skirt, there does not seem to be any front opening. The pattern does have an
> Indian look to it. According to the caption, this picture is "said to be
> Arabella Stuart, wearing a jacket trimed with cutwork. Portrait attributed
> to Marcus Gheeraerts, c. 1605."  This is just after Elizabeth's reign (she
> died in 1603).

This is the one.  I was going from my memory in my description not the picture in
front of me.  Thanks for the clarification.  I think a sari border would fall into
the realm of reasonable facsimile for this particular look.  And did you notice?  A
yellow ruff and cuff set.  Yellow is pretty rare.

Cynthia
--
Cynthia Long
Merouda the True of Beaumaris
Barony of Madrone
Kingdom of An Tir


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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Wed Oct 13 10:26:43 1999
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From: "Fairchild, Connie E." <Connie.Fairchild@alcoa.com>
To: "'h-costume-digest@indra.com'" <h-costume-digest@indra.com>
Subject: H-COST: Old Sewing Machines - Damascus & Domestic
Date: Wed, 13 Oct 1999 11:33:58 -0400
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-Poster: "Fairchild, Connie E." <Connie.Fairchild@alcoa.com>

The Damascus was manufactured by the Standard Sewing Machine Co. as well as
the National Sewing Machine Co.  Standard was formed in the 1880's and
acquired by Singer in 1931.  National was formed in 1890 and their machines
were sold through dept. stores and through mail order establishements (like
Sears and Wards).  In 1953 the company merged with the Free S M Co. and
produced one electric model under the Free-Westinghouse name.  Free went out
of business in 1969.

The Domestic S M Co. sold out to White in 1924.

This information is from "American Antique Sewing Machines" by Slaten.  Good
pictures and information, but not accurate in the value guide, I have heard.

If you are interested in old machines, both treadle and electric, you may be
interested in a newsgroup for old sewing machine collectors and enthusiasts.
There are several members who work on their machines and are very helpful
with problems such as the "stuck stitch selector on a fancy stitch roto
thingie" which Carolyn mentioned as a problem regarding her Domestic.  Their
web site also has good information on old machines.  If you would like that
address, just email me.

For those interested in Featherweights there are several newsgroups or sites
as well, one is Featherweight Fanatics.  Just do a search.  Featherweights
in my area of the Midwest go for about $375 - $425 sometimes more --
depending on their condition, the condition of the case, and number of
attachments.   My aunt in Idaho found one in a second hand store, fully
loaded for $375.  Not a lot for a dear little machine.  : )

Connie Fairchild

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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Wed Oct 13 11:38:30 1999
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Subject: H-COST: patterns overseas
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-Poster: ches@io.com

Do other countries have commercial pattern companies like we do?

What I am getting at is, do they have the same kinda fad costume section
like ours?

Sincerely,
F. Havas
ches@io.com

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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Wed Oct 13 11:53:51 1999
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From: Susan Fatemi <susanf@netwiz.net>
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-Poster: Susan Fatemi <susanf@netwiz.net>

ches@io.com wrote:
> 
> -Poster: ches@io.com
> 
> Do other countries have commercial pattern companies like we do?
> 
> What I am getting at is, do they have the same kinda fad costume section
> like ours?
> 

They have the *same* pattern companies we do. That's why the
patterns are printed in several languages. (I lived overseas,
tho' not in Europe and we could always get Vogue patterns)
Not all patterns may be available in all countries.

Burda originates in Europe, and isn't there one that
originates in Britain??

Susan F.
-- 
Oh Noh! Kimonos!
susanf@netwiz.net
http://www.netwiz.net/~susanf
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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Wed Oct 13 12:09:32 1999
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-Poster: Lavolta Press <lavolta@best.com>



Susan Fatemi wrote:

> -Poster: Susan Fatemi <susanf@netwiz.net>
>
> ches@io.com wrote:
> >
> > -Poster: ches@io.com
> >
> > Do other countries have commercial pattern companies like we do?
> >
> > What I am getting at is, do they have the same kinda fad costume section
> > like ours?
> >
>
> They have the *same* pattern companies we do. That's why the
> patterns are printed in several languages. (I lived overseas,
> tho' not in Europe and we could always get Vogue patterns)
> Not all patterns may be available in all countries.
>
> Burda originates in Europe, and isn't there one that
> originates in Britain??
>
> Susan F.
> --
> Oh Noh! Kimonos!
> susanf@netwiz.net
> http://www.netwiz.net/~susanf

How about smaller companies that produce historic patterns?  Do you (or non-US
members of h-costume) know if England and Europe have any we are not seeing
here in the US?

Fran Grimble


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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Wed Oct 13 12:33:44 1999
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-Poster: Andrea Clef <a.clef@ndh.net>


--------------FD7DC202DA0732F6AE1FC7E5
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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> Burda originates in Europe, and isn't there one that
> originates in Britain??
>
Burda is a German company and they don`t have any useful historical
costume patterns at all (except maybe one that was a special issue for
the celebration of the 1848 democratic revoulution but it`s far from
historically correct).All the costume patterns over here are intended
for carnival use and are mostly Fantasy
(clowns, pirates, animals etc.).

Unfortunately we don`t even get the Simplicity costume patterns in our
stores although the regular Simplicity patterns are available over here.

But I`m very lucky to have nice people in the States getting them for me
(thanks a lot,
Kate !).

Many greetings,
Diana


--------------FD7DC202DA0732F6AE1FC7E5
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<HTML>

<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>
<PRE>Burda originates in Europe, and isn't there one that
originates in Britain??</PRE>
</BLOCKQUOTE>
Burda is a German company and they don`t have any useful historical costume
patterns at all (except maybe one that was a special issue for the celebration
of the 1848 democratic revoulution but it`s far from historically correct).All
the costume patterns over here are intended for carnival use and are mostly
Fantasy
<BR>(clowns, pirates, animals etc.).

<P>Unfortunately we don`t even get the Simplicity costume patterns in our
stores although the regular Simplicity patterns are available over here.
<BR>But I`m very lucky to have nice people in the States getting them for
me (thanks a lot,
<BR>Kate !).

<P>Many greetings,
<BR>Diana
<BR>&nbsp;</HTML>

--------------FD7DC202DA0732F6AE1FC7E5--


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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Wed Oct 13 13:37:10 1999
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-Poster: Sally Norton <snorton@us.oracle.com>


I asked a friend at work who has fenced for years and is very active in
competition today. He told me that in the 16th c. fencing was a form of
fighting, not the elite sport we think of today. In the 16th c. a man
did not
have garments specifically for fencing.

Sally Norton
snorton@us.oracle.com

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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Wed Oct 13 14:56:52 1999
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Subject: H-COST: zoot suit
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-Poster: Gaelscot@aol.com



I can't remember the number of the Simplicity Zoot Suit, but it really 
exists. I don't have my Vogue pattern with me at the moment or I'd tell you 
the number. But you can see it on the cover of the current Vogue pattern 
book, which has a black and white photo of a couple in 1940s clothes. It 
appears a couple of times in the book, so I don't know why you can't find it 
-- unless your store has the old book, in which case it isn't there.

While I'm on the subject . . . I am making the pants for my husband. I 
wouldn't attempt the jacket. It is without a doubt the worst sewing project 
I've ever taken on since our family baptismal gown -- also a Vogue. The 
instructions are awful. Follow them to the letter and you get: a mistake! I 
guess maybe they're geared toward people who have already made tailored 
suits, but for those of us that haven't, they STINK. The kids have been 
wonderful at playing while I sew, and if the instructions weren't awful I 
would be done by now. As it is, I've had to rip lots of things out and do 
them again. So beware.

A little perspective, though: last night at 10:30 I was trying to do the left 
fly (after spending TWO HOURS on the right fly!). I assembled everything 
according to the directions and the picture, and it came out backwards. I 
made my husband look at the directions while I vented. "It says to put right 
sides together, and I did!" I screamed. "I made it look just like the picture 
and I sewed it together and it's backwards!" My dear husband was sympathetic, 
and then it said, "But I guess they were thinking you'd use lining fabric, 
which doesn't have a right side, instead of novelty cotton printed with 
grinning skulls."

Too true. I ripped it out and reassembled it and now my skulls are inside-out.

Gail Finke

PS: It was really cheap, that's why.



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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Wed Oct 13 16:23:07 1999
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Date: Wed, 13 Oct 1999 17:35:59 EDT
Subject: Re: H-COST: Pattern Instruction sheets
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-Poster: Appin1@aol.com

Margo -- The one major problem I've had with various historical costume 
patterns is that the instructions suck! All of them.

I personally would prefer an 8X11 booklet. La Mode Bagatelle does that with 
their Regency wardrobe, and while I find the instructions a bit obtuse, I 
like the format.

Kathleen Norvell
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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Wed Oct 13 16:47:00 1999
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-Poster: Appin1@aol.com

I have never heard of a Janome or seen one anywhere. Where does one get them?

Kathleen Norvell
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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Wed Oct 13 16:54:37 1999
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Subject: Re: Lady in red skirt, was Re: H-COST: Sari Silk
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-Poster: Dawn <dawn.wood1@virgin.net>

Merouda the True of Beaumaris wrote:
> 
> -Poster: Merouda the True of Beaumaris <keltia@serv.net>
> 
> > The only picture I can find that approximates your description is on page
> > 11; while I can see a gold-embroidered pattern around the bottom of the
> > skirt, there does not seem to be any front opening. The pattern does have an
> > Indian look to it. According to the caption, this picture is "said to be
> > Arabella Stuart, wearing a jacket trimed with cutwork. Portrait attributed
> > to Marcus Gheeraerts, c. 1605."  This is just after Elizabeth's reign (she
> > died in 1603).
> 
> This is the one.  I was going from my memory in my description not the picture in
> front of me.  Thanks for the clarification.  I think a sari border would fall into
> the realm of reasonable facsimile for this particular look.  And did you notice?  A
> yellow ruff and cuff set.  Yellow is pretty rare.
Actually yellow, blue and red ruffs were very fashionable according to
Janet Arnold and can be seen on quite a few portraits we just think it's
old varnish in most cases. The yellow is acheived by adding Saffron to
the starch.

Dawn

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-Poster: Ron Carnegie <rcarnegie@widomaker.com>

At 11:42 PM 10/13/99 -0700, you wrote:
>
>-Poster: Sally Norton <snorton@us.oracle.com>
>
>
>I asked a friend at work who has fenced for years and is very active in
>competition today. He told me that in the 16th c. fencing was a form of
>fighting, not the elite sport we think of today. In the 16th c. a man
>did not
>have garments specifically for fencing.
>
>Sally Norton
>snorton@us.oracle.com
>
  Fencing garments do exist in the 16th century.  There is an example shown
in Janet Arnolds book. 

Cheers,
Ron Carnegie
rcarnegie@widomaker.com
	*************************************************
	"The poetry of history lies in the quasi-miraculous fact that
	 once on this earth, on this familiar spot of ground walked
	 other men and women as actual as we are today, thinking
	 their own thoughts, swayed by their own passions but now
	 all gone, vanishing after another, gone as utterly as we 
	 ourselves shall be gone like ghosts at cockcrow."
				G.M. Trevelyan
	*************************************************

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Subject: Re: H-COST: Sari Silk - Elizabethan
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-Poster: Appin1@aol.com

You should be able to get or order a hoop skirt at a bridal shop. Or try one 
of the bride's magazines. It should have ads for such things.

Kathleen Norvell
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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Wed Oct 13 17:04:19 1999
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From: "Susan Carroll-Clark" <nicolaa@columbus.rr.com>
To: <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: H-COST: sewing machines/Y2k
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-Poster: "Susan Carroll-Clark" <nicolaa@columbus.rr.com>


Greetings!

>I have never heard of a Janome or seen one anywhere. Where does one get
them?
>
>Kathleen Norvell


Are you in the US?  They're sold here as "New Home." But in Canada they're
Janome.

Susan

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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Wed Oct 13 17:23:49 1999
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-Poster: Merouda the True of Beaumaris <keltia@serv.net>

> Actually yellow, blue and red ruffs were very fashionable according to
> Janet Arnold and can be seen on quite a few portraits we just think it's
> old varnish in most cases. The yellow is acheived by adding Saffron to
> the starch.

Well, I don't know about "we" thinking this about varnish.  :)  I certainly don't.  I
know that Arnold mentions it and they are around but I find the pictures in color very
rarely.

--
Cynthia Long
Merouda the True of Beaumaris
Barony of Madrone
Kingdom of An Tir


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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Wed Oct 13 17:34:43 1999
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Subject: H-COST: H-Cost:  And the Winner Is...
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-Poster: Margo Anderson <margo@directcon.net>

Thanks to everyone who came up with suggestions for names for my pattern
business.  After long consideration, and finding that some of the
suggestions I liked best were already in use, I have decided to go with my
original idea of Regalia Costume Patterns.

As I promised, I have done a random drawing from all those who suggested
names, and the winner is Mellissa Depner.  Melissa, please send me your
snail address and I will send you a gift certificate for a free copy of the
first pattern, when available.  

The business plan is done and goes in the mail to my potential investor
tomorrow morning.  Think happy thoughts, everyone, and if all goes well,
good Elizabethan patterns will be on the market in about a year, to be
followed by patterns for many other periods.

Nervously,

Margo

"One Tough Costumer"
http://www.directcon.net/wander/main.htm

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Date: Wed, 13 Oct 1999 16:00:32 -0700
To: h-costume@indra.com
From: Lynn Downward <ldownward@chori.org>
Subject: Re: H-COST: H-Cost:  And the Winner Is...
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-Poster: Lynn Downward <ldownward@chori.org>

>-Poster: Margo Anderson <margo@directcon.net>
>
>Thanks to everyone who came up with suggestions for names for my pattern
>business.  After long consideration, and finding that some of the
>suggestions I liked best were already in use, I have decided to go with my
>original idea of Regalia Costume Patterns.
>
>As I promised, I have done a random drawing from all those who suggested
>names, and the winner is Mellissa Depner.  Melissa, please send me your
>snail address and I will send you a gift certificate for a free copy of the
>first pattern, when available.
>
>The business plan is done and goes in the mail to my potential investor
>tomorrow morning.  Think happy thoughts, everyone, and if all goes well,
>good Elizabethan patterns will be on the market in about a year, to be
>followed by patterns for many other periods.
>
>Nervously,
>
>Margo
>
>"One Tough Costumer"
>http://www.directcon.net/wander/main.htm
>


Best of luck to you, Margo.  Remember that "one tough costumer" part while
you wait for a reply; it should help a bit.

LynnD
With many good thoughts for you
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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Wed Oct 13 19:38:49 1999
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Date: Wed, 13 Oct 1999 19:52:49 -0500
To: h-costume@indra.com
From: Melanie Schuessler <melanie@faucet.net>
Subject: Re: H-COST: Fencing garments
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-Poster: Melanie Schuessler <melanie@faucet.net>

>-Poster: Sally Norton <snorton@us.oracle.com>
>
>
>I asked a friend at work who has fenced for years and is very active in
>competition today. He told me that in the 16th c. fencing was a form of
>fighting, not the elite sport we think of today. In the 16th c. a man
>did not
>have garments specifically for fencing.

Thanks.  I'll forward this to the person in question.

Melanie


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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Wed Oct 13 19:41:50 1999
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From: Melanie Schuessler <melanie@faucet.net>
Subject: Re: H-COST: Fencing garments--oops
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-Poster: Melanie Schuessler <melanie@faucet.net>

I just noticed that you cleverly sent your mail both to the list and to the
person needing help--thanks!

Melanie


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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Wed Oct 13 20:00:06 1999
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Subject: H-COST: Re: patterns overseas
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-Poster: Gary Stephens <lgsteph@golden.net>

	For those of you interested in commercial historical patterns, I
will be carrying these effective January 1, 2000. At first I will have
stock items in Past Patterns, Period Impressions, Kannik's Korners and Mill
Farm. Expansion will take place throughout the year to encompass time
periods from 500 AD through to 1950.

	As our company already ships internationally, to ship patterns
internationally will not prove a challenge.

regards
Lorina Stephens


--------------------------------------
 Five Rivers Chapmanry ~ purveyors of quality hand-crafted cooperage & fine
hand-sewn garments http://www.5rivers.org e-mail: info@5rivers.org


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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Wed Oct 13 20:22:42 1999
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Date: Wed, 13 Oct 1999 21:41:22 -0400
To: h-costume@indra.com
From: Sue Shatto <Sue@VictorianMillinery.com>
Subject: Re: H-COST: OT: Neiman Marcus
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.10.9910120940590.8782-100000@fnord.io.com>
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-Poster: Sue Shatto <Sue@VictorianMillinery.com>

I was not able to access this site.

At 09:41 AM 10/12/99 -0500, you wrote:
>
>-Poster: ches@io.com
>
>I am so sorry for offending many of you.
>
>All opinions are welcome, including the male population of the list!!
>
>One of these days I will be politically correct...
>
>Sincerely,
>F. Havas
>ches@io.com
>

Cordially,

Sue Shatto

Sue@VictorianMillinery.com
http://www.VictorianMillinery.com

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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Wed Oct 13 20:44:45 1999
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From: "fhavas" <ches@io.com>
To: <h-costume@indra.com>
References: <38028D2A.DCD7D7D4@pacbell.net> <3.0.3.32.19991013214122.007c7570@intrepid.net>
Subject: Re: H-COST: OT: Neiman Marcus
Date: Wed, 13 Oct 1999 20:56:20 -0500
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-Poster: "fhavas" <ches@io.com>

What browser were you using? The stats showed that 42% of the shoppers and
browsers of this site were IE 5.0 users, 23% IE 4.X, 30% Netscape 4.X, 3%
Mac and the rest were misc. We had to decide how to create this site based
on these stats and the steering committee decided that we would not support
anything that would not support 128 encryption since we were going to take
your credit card info. Certificates, yadda yadda yadda, and such are not
compatible with lower browsers. So I apologize for the gross inconvience it
may cause any of my fellow surfers.

The shopping feature is now open, you all can register! Currently there is
an Italian exhibit at the Dallas location with costumes from Italian operas
through the ages. All are on loan from various opera houses in Europe. There
is also a Leonardo d'Vinci exhibit that is interactive as well as 8x10
brasses that you can do rubbings off of.

Sincerely,
FHavas
Dallas, Texas
----- Original Message -----
From: Sue Shatto <Sue@VictorianMillinery.com>
To: <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 1999 8:41 PM
Subject: Re: H-COST: OT: Neiman Marcus


>
> -Poster: Sue Shatto <Sue@VictorianMillinery.com>
>
> I was not able to access this site.
>
> At 09:41 AM 10/12/99 -0500, you wrote:
> >
> >-Poster: ches@io.com
> >
> >I am so sorry for offending many of you.
> >
> >All opinions are welcome, including the male population of the list!!
> >
> >One of these days I will be politically correct...
> >
> >Sincerely,
> >F. Havas
> >ches@io.com
> >
>
> Cordially,
>
> Sue Shatto
>
> Sue@VictorianMillinery.com
> http://www.VictorianMillinery.com
>
>

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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Wed Oct 13 21:28:12 1999
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From: Alabaster <mercury@eagle.ca>
Subject: H-COST: Quick trip to NYC
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-Poster: Alabaster <mercury@eagle.ca>

Hi

I've been thinking about a weekend trip for my husband & I (& our 3 kids) in
late October & was wondering if anyone had any ideas about interesting
costume/museum outtings for us.  The kids are 12,11,10 & would love to do
some really fun stuff.  I would like to drop by anywhere that has any
costume exhibits, European Art (or a great fabric store).  We'd also be
looking for somewhere to stay -- fairly central & pretty CHEAP.

Looking forward to any help you can offer (reply privately if you wish!)

Thanks

Elizabeth

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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Wed Oct 13 21:34:20 1999
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Date: Wed, 13 Oct 1999 19:50:34 -0700
Subject: Re: H-COST: OT: Neiman Marcus
From: "R.L. Shep" <rlshep@home.com>
To: h-costume@indra.com
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-Poster: "R.L. Shep" <rlshep@home.com>

I was able but since I am not a *lady* I have no opinion on the site.
~!~ R.L.Shep
http://www.rlshep.com

----------
>From: Sue Shatto <Sue@VictorianMillinery.com>
>To: h-costume@indra.com
>Subject: Re: H-COST: OT: Neiman Marcus
>Date: Wed, Oct 13, 1999, 6:41 PM
>

>
>-Poster: Sue Shatto <Sue@VictorianMillinery.com>
>
>I was not able to access this site.
>
>At 09:41 AM 10/12/99 -0500, you wrote:
>>
>>-Poster: ches@io.com
>>
>>I am so sorry for offending many of you.
>>
>>All opinions are welcome, including the male population of the list!!
>>
>>One of these days I will be politically correct...
>>
>>Sincerely,
>>F. Havas
>>ches@io.com
>>
>
>Cordially,
>
>Sue Shatto
>
>Sue@VictorianMillinery.com
>http://www.VictorianMillinery.com


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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Thu Oct 14 07:25:47 1999
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Date: Thu, 14 Oct 1999 05:38:53 -0700
From: " Firefly" <fire.fly@hotbot.com>
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-Poster: " Firefly" <fire.fly@hotbot.com>

I've been confused over the discussion of different zoot suit patterns, so I thought I'd try to define who makes what pattern, along with my own impression of each:

2367 is the Vogue zoot suit. It has princess seams in the back. In my eyes this is the superior pattern, however, it has the longest bunch of instructions I've ever seen and doesn't provide much in the way of tailoring.  Be forwarned:  a zoot suit is an advanced sewing project (more complicated than a regular suit).  Make sure you are comfy working with welt pockets, lapel piecess and know how to roll lapels before taking this on.  Also, it is only in the new Vogue catalogue--many stores may not have these out yet.

8879 is the Simplicity pattern.  It is from their "retro" line.  They do not identify it as a zoot suit, but as a "long suit." It is constructed like a regular men's jacket, but longer.  It does not seem to have a true princess seams in the back.  Lapels are modern (wrong shape, not just small).  In my impression, it seems to have more simplified construction requirements, but it also doesn't look as tailored as the Vogue pattern...

...And to confuse things a little more:

I made my first attempt from adapting Neue Mode Stil # V 22178.  It is a tacky little outfit that looks kind of like a waiters uniform (not a zoot suit).  It has princess seams in the front and back (I have vintage photos of this, so it is a correct, if not common option) and a wacky two-toned collar option).  It needs to be extended, as it only is cut to the waist.  Instructions are in pidgin English and German.

Hope this helps everyone!

Mary



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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Thu Oct 14 08:02:34 1999
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From: "StitchWitch" <stitchwitch@excite.com>
To: h-costume@indra.com
Subject: Re: H-COST: RE:Cleaning Machines (was when to buy good thread
Message-Id: <939325911.28049.622@excite.com>
Date: Thu, 07 Oct 1999 12:51:51 PDT
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-Poster: "StitchWitch" <stitchwitch@excite.com>



> Some repair technicians claim that this can cause problems by forcing
lint
> particles further into the mechanism.  They say you should use one of
those
> nifty little vaccuum cleaners that computer people use.  You can also buy
a
> kit of mini attachments for a full size canister vac, too.  

I have one of those attachment kits on order. As soon as it arrives, I
intend to take it for a 'test drive'. If anyone is interested in a review,
let me know and I'll post how well it works.

Kate
----
StitchWitch

A learned bastard takes precedence over an ignorant high priest. - The
Talmud, 5th Cen.




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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Thu Oct 14 08:30:27 1999
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Date: Thu, 14 Oct 1999 09:43:05 EDT
Subject: H-COST: bridal hoops for Elizabethan
To: h-costume-digest@indra.com
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-Poster: Gaelscot@aol.com



Last time I checked, the kind of hoops sold at bridal stores are more 
appropriate for Elizabethan than for antebellum, because they tend to have a 
cone shape rather than a bell shape. But they're still not quite right, and 
they're expensive, too! If you buy one, you might have to alter the hoops. 
You can usually make them smaller by pinning them -- the hoop part isn't 
usually a real circle, but a long stiff tape put into a channel. You can make 
it narrower, and you might have to if you want it to look right.

Gail Finke
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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Thu Oct 14 09:00:11 1999
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Subject: Re: H-COST: Quick trip to NYC
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-Poster: SNSpies@aol.com

<< We'd also be
 looking for somewhere to stay -- fairly central & pretty CHEAP. >>

The Hotel Pennsylvania is right across the street from Penn Station, which is 
great, but it's not the best place to stay in terms of no mold in your room!  
However, for NYC it's cheap.

Nancy
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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Thu Oct 14 09:17:13 1999
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Date: Thu, 14 Oct 1999 10:30:21 EDT
Subject: H-COST: Costume Books on eBay
To: h-costume@indra.com, sewinghistoric@onelist.com, menscostumes@onelist.com
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-Poster: Morses3@aol.com

Sorry for the intrusion, but I just bought a collection of costume books from 
an estate, and I've listed the duplicates I already had on eBay as follows 
with low reserves just to pass them on. I hope someone who needs one gets a 
bargain!

Look under seller :   mayflower

#181507166   "The Book of Costume"  2 volume boxed set by  Millia Davenport, 
from the first printing

#181510608 "Pictorial History of Costume" by Bruhn and Tilke

#181514569 "Patterns of Fashion 1560-1620" by Janet Arnold (with brown 
cover), signed by the author on the front page

Thanks,

Perry
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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Thu Oct 14 09:41:46 1999
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-Poster: Andrea Clef <a.clef@ndh.net>


--------------F2B4C0815198237E03D68668
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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>  For those of you interested in commercial historical patterns, I
> will be carrying these effective January 1, 2000. At first I will have
> stock items in Past Patterns, Period Impressions, Kannik's Korners and Mill
> Farm. Expansion will take place throughout the year to encompass time
> periods from 500 AD through to 1950.
>
>         As our company already ships internationally, to ship patterns
> internationally will not prove a challenge.
>
What is the name of your business and where are you situated ?Do you
have a website ?
(So many questions in one mail ;-)...).

Many greetings,
Diana


--------------F2B4C0815198237E03D68668
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<HTML>

<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>
<PRE>&nbsp;For those of you interested in commercial historical patterns, I
will be carrying these effective January 1, 2000. At first I will have
stock items in Past Patterns, Period Impressions, Kannik's Korners and Mill
Farm. Expansion will take place throughout the year to encompass time
periods from 500 AD through to 1950.

&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; As our company already ships internationally, to ship patterns
internationally will not prove a challenge.</PRE>
</BLOCKQUOTE>
What is the name of your business and where are you situated ?Do you have
a website ?
<BR>(So many questions in one mail ;-)...).

<P>Many greetings,
<BR>Diana
<BR>&nbsp;</HTML>

--------------F2B4C0815198237E03D68668--



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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Thu Oct 14 10:20:15 1999
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Subject: Re: H-COST: Re: patterns overseas
Date: Thu, 14 Oct 1999 11:37:28 -0500
x-sender: tr002203-elisee@williams.tricreations.com
x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v3, January 22, 1998
From: Elisee du Lyonnais <elisee@sewingcentral.com>
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-Poster: Elisee du Lyonnais <elisee@sewingcentral.com>

For those of you interested in commercial historical patterns, I carry 
them now, and have been shipping overseas for over a year.  I charge only 
actual shipping costs, adding no "handling" charge.  I carry Period 
Patterns, Costume Connection, Alter Years, Past Patterns, Patterns of 
History, Kannik's Korner, Eagle's View, and Laughing Moon Mercantile, and 
am adding other lines of patterns as I discover them.  You may browse our 
catalog at 

http://www.sewingcentral.com

As an added benefit, I have made up many of the patterns I carry, and can 
help advise on their construction.

We are in the process of enabling a shopping cart system on the website, 
to further ease the ordering process especially for our overseas 
customers.  You may also want to check out my new silk page for silk noil 
at $6 a yard.

I have not previously posted such a blatant commercial announcement.

Lisa Brandt, owner
Sewing Central/The Merlion's Tail

Gary Stephens wrote:

>
>-Poster: Gary Stephens <lgsteph@golden.net>
>
>	For those of you interested in commercial historical patterns, I
>will be carrying these effective January 1, 2000. At first I will have
>stock items in Past Patterns, Period Impressions, Kannik's Korners and Mill
>Farm. Expansion will take place throughout the year to encompass time
>periods from 500 AD through to 1950.
>
>	As our company already ships internationally, to ship patterns
>internationally will not prove a challenge.
>
>regards
>Lorina Stephens
>
>
>--------------------------------------
> Five Rivers Chapmanry ~ purveyors of quality hand-crafted cooperage & fine
>hand-sewn garments http://www.5rivers.org e-mail: info@5rivers.org
>
>
>
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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Thu Oct 14 10:45:14 1999
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Date: Thu, 14 Oct 1999 10:57:53 -0500 (CDT)
To: h-costume@indra.com
Subject: Re: H-COST: Re: patterns overseas
In-Reply-To: <199910141526.LAA12783@williams.tricreations.com>
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-Poster: ches@io.com

Is everyone missing the point of my post!?!

I was not looking for merchants to sell them overseas I was looking for
REAL pattern manufacutures overseas.

If you are selling them to customers overseas change the subject line
please.

Sincerely,
F. Havas
ches@io.com


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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Thu Oct 14 10:56:33 1999
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Subject: Re: H-COST: Quick trip to NYC
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-Poster: Stephen Fairman <fairmans@teleport.com>



Alabaster wrote:

> -Poster: Alabaster <mercury@eagle.ca>
>
> Hi
>
> I've been thinking about a weekend trip for my husband & I (& our 3 kids) in
> late October & was wondering if anyone had any ideas about interesting
> costume/museum outtings for us.  The kids are 12,11,10 & would love to do
> some really fun stuff.  I would like to drop by anywhere that has any
> costume exhibits, European Art (or a great fabric store).  We'd also be
> looking for somewhere to stay -- fairly central & pretty CHEAP.
>
> Looking forward to any help you can offer (reply privately if you wish!)
>
> Thanks
>
> Elizabeth


I don't know if you can still do it but back in 1978, my wife, daughter, and I
stayed at the YMCA, which was walking distance from the UN and Grand Central.
I remember it being very cheap back then and family-friendly.  Very modest rooms
but you will only be sleeping in them.

Esteban McLachan
Shadow's Treasure Chest
http://www.cyberis.net/~fairman1

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Subject: Re: H-COST: nipples & breasts showing
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-Poster: Pandoorah@aol.com

Under this heading there were two books mentioned.  One was the Anne 
Hollender book...  (I think that was the author's name) but I have lost the 
information on the other one.  If someone has that information could you 
please send it to me privately.

Thank you,
Shannon
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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Thu Oct 14 12:35:43 1999
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From: "Cynthia Barnes" <Cynthia_Barnes@phoenix.com>
To: "H-Costume (E-mail)" <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: H-COST: Pourpoints & passe-poils
Date: Thu, 14 Oct 1999 10:46:51 -0700
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-Poster: "Cynthia Barnes" <Cynthia_Barnes@phoenix.com>


Does anyone know what  "Passe-poils" are? The are only referenced in the
plural; generally with either sort of pourpoint. The 15th c expression is
typically something like: monies paid "pour faire une pourpoint passe-poils
vert fonce assiettes grises".  I've tried several french dictionaries but
can only go back as far as Jean Nicot's "Thresor de la langue française"
(1606)
which says "Passe-poil. s. m. Petit bord de tafetas, de satin, ou d'autre
estoffe, qui est different de celle de l'habit, & qui
se met à l'endroit des coutures, & aux extrémitez de l'habit". This
description is rather like contrasting piping or dagging set into a seam or
as edging.
--cin
Cynthia Barnes
408.570.1023
Cynthia_Barnes@phoenix.com
Phoenix Technologies
411 E. Plumeria Dr.
San Jose CA 95134
"I think animal testing is a terrible idea; they get all nervous and give
the wrong answers."

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Subject: H-COST: Check this out!
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-Poster: KATHLEEN.MAHER@asu.edu

http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=180321545

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-Poster: Margo Anderson <margo@directcon.net>


>http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=180321545
>

Stop it, you're hurting me.

Margo

"One Tough Costumer"
http://www.directcon.net/wander/main.htm

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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Thu Oct 14 12:58:37 1999
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-Poster: Merouda the True of Beaumaris <keltia@serv.net>

> http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=180321545

ROTFL!  1200 - 1700???  okay, whatever.

Cynthia

--
Cynthia Long
Merouda the True of Beaumaris
Barony of Madrone
Kingdom of An Tir


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-Poster: Sarah Toney <sarah_and_pooh@yahoo.com>


I'm terrefied... I definitely need to start making
junk to sell on e-bay... my nice stuff won't sell, but
look at the number of bids!  Geez... 

sarah

--- KATHLEEN.MAHER@asu.edu wrote:
> 
> -Poster: KATHLEEN.MAHER@asu.edu
> 
>
http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=180321545
> 
> 


=====

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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Thu Oct 14 13:09:23 1999
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Date: Thu, 14 Oct 1999 11:22:09 -0700
From: " Firefly" <fire.fly@hotbot.com>
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-Poster: " Firefly" <fire.fly@hotbot.com>

What a nightmare!  It seemed like there were a zillion pieces in that pattern and the instructions just went on and on!  I will start mine probably next weekend (I'm away to Boston this weekend).  I'll let you know how mine go!

Mary
---
Visit my homepage:
http://pages.hotbot.com/travel/fire.fly

On Wed, 13 Oct 1999 16:07:59   Gaelscot wrote:
>
>-Poster: Gaelscot@aol.com
>
>
>
>I can't remember the number of the Simplicity Zoot Suit, but it really 
>exists. I don't have my Vogue pattern with me at the moment or I'd tell you 
>the number. But you can see it on the cover of the current Vogue pattern 
>book, which has a black and white photo of a couple in 1940s clothes. It 
>appears a couple of times in the book, so I don't know why you can't find it 
>-- unless your store has the old book, in which case it isn't there.
>
>While I'm on the subject . . . I am making the pants for my husband. I 
>wouldn't attempt the jacket. It is without a doubt the worst sewing project 
>I've ever taken on since our family baptismal gown -- also a Vogue. The 
>instructions are awful. Follow them to the letter and you get: a mistake! I 
>guess maybe they're geared toward people who have already made tailored 
>suits, but for those of us that haven't, they STINK. The kids have been 
>wonderful at playing while I sew, and if the instructions weren't awful I 
>would be done by now. As it is, I've had to rip lots of things out and do 
>them again. So beware.
>
>A little perspective, though: last night at 10:30 I was trying to do the left 
>fly (after spending TWO HOURS on the right fly!). I assembled everything 
>according to the directions and the picture, and it came out backwards. I 
>made my husband look at the directions while I vented. "It says to put right 
>sides together, and I did!" I screamed. "I made it look just like the picture 
>and I sewed it together and it's backwards!" My dear husband was sympathetic, 
>and then it said, "But I guess they were thinking you'd use lining fabric, 
>which doesn't have a right side, instead of novelty cotton printed with 
>grinning skulls."
>
>Too true. I ripped it out and reassembled it and now my skulls are inside-out.
>
>Gail Finke
>
>PS: It was really cheap, that's why.
>


HotBot - Search smarter.
http://www.hotbot.com
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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Thu Oct 14 13:09:59 1999
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From: "Frank A Thallas Jr" <hardcorps@vcn.com>
To: <h-costume@indra.com>
References: <Pine.GSO.3.96.991014105537.22308D-100000@general1.asu.edu>
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-Poster: "Frank A Thallas Jr" <hardcorps@vcn.com>

  Oh dear.
  Margo, PLEASE hurry with your patterns...there's obviously
a huge need.......

  Liadain,


> 
> -Poster: KATHLEEN.MAHER@asu.edu
> 
> http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=180321545
> 
> 

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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Thu Oct 14 13:12:56 1999
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Date: Thu, 14 Oct 1999 13:26:47 -0500 (CDT)
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Subject: Re: H-COST: Check this out!
In-Reply-To: <38061D8D.E800A1DE@serv.net>
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-Poster: ches@io.com

Ditto!!

But still a nice picture, found it about the time she put it up and was
the second bidder but lost it rather quickly. :)

Sincerely,
F. Havas
ches@io.com

On Thu, 14 Oct 1999, Merouda the True of Beaumaris wrote:

> Date: Thu, 14 Oct 1999 11:14:38 -0700
> From: Merouda the True of Beaumaris <keltia@serv.net>
> Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com
> To: h-costume@indra.com
> Subject: Re: H-COST: Check this out!
> 
> 
> -Poster: Merouda the True of Beaumaris <keltia@serv.net>
> 
> > http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=180321545
> 
> ROTFL!  1200 - 1700???  okay, whatever.
> 
> Cynthia
> 
> --
> Cynthia Long
> Merouda the True of Beaumaris
> Barony of Madrone
> Kingdom of An Tir

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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Thu Oct 14 13:15:31 1999
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Message-ID: <002b01bad882$222c8100$5cf1a2d0@default>
From: "Frank A Thallas Jr" <hardcorps@vcn.com>
To: <h-costume@indra.com>
References: <19991014182903.14073.rocketmail@web802.mail.yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: H-COST: Check this out!
Date: Mon, 1 Jan 1996 12:48:27 -0700
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-Poster: "Frank A Thallas Jr" <hardcorps@vcn.com>


  Excellent idea!  We can all sell those gawdawful "First Attempts"
on Ebay, and make enough money for a raid en masse on Britex....<G>

  Liadain,
     snickering.......

> I'm terrefied... I definitely need to start making
> junk to sell on e-bay... my nice stuff won't sell, but
> look at the number of bids!  Geez... 
> 
> sarah


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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Thu Oct 14 13:20:09 1999
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From: "Cynthia Barnes" <Cynthia_Barnes@phoenix.com>
To: "H-Costume (E-mail)" <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: H-COST: Ebay wench-wear
Date: Thu, 14 Oct 1999 11:31:27 -0700
Message-ID: <000201bf1672$54970750$6b037a86@phoenix.com>
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-Poster: "Cynthia Barnes" <Cynthia_Barnes@phoenix.com>


>This ensemble style is typical of middle class european ladies in the
period from the 1200's to the 17'00's.

Now *that's* versatile! ROFL!

 --cin
Cynthia Barnes
408.570.1023
Cynthia_Barnes@phoenix.com
Phoenix Technologies
411 E. Plumeria Dr.
San Jose CA 95134
"I think animal testing is a terrible idea; they get all nervous and give
the wrong answers."

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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Thu Oct 14 13:28:16 1999
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From: "Frank A Thallas Jr" <hardcorps@vcn.com>
To: <h-costume@indra.com>
References: <000201bf1672$54970750$6b037a86@phoenix.com>
Subject: Re: H-COST: Ebay wench-wear
Date: Mon, 1 Jan 1996 13:01:00 -0700
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-Poster: "Frank A Thallas Jr" <hardcorps@vcn.com>

  One wonders how the "middle-class LADIES" would feel about
being referred to as "wenches", though....<GGGG>

  Liadain,
   who will attempt to stop snarking now...<G>

> >This ensemble style is typical of middle class european ladies in the
> period from the 1200's to the 17'00's.
> 
> Now *that's* versatile! ROFL!
> 
>  --cin
> Cynthia Barnes
> 408.570.1023
> Cynthia_Barnes@phoenix.com
> Phoenix Technologies
> 411 E. Plumeria Dr.
> San Jose CA 95134
> "I think animal testing is a terrible idea; they get all nervous and give
> the wrong answers."
> 
> 

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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Thu Oct 14 13:29:38 1999
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From: "Penny Ladnier" <penny.creative.outlets@erols.com>
To: <h-costume@indra.com>
References: <Pine.GSO.3.96.991014105537.22308D-100000@general1.asu.edu>
Subject: Re: H-COST: Check this out!
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-Poster: "Penny Ladnier" <penny.creative.outlets@erols.com>

Okay, I have been trying to figure out how to ask this question for weeks
about this type of costume.  Where did people come up with this idea of the
front lacing bodice?

Later... Penny
http://www.costumegallery.com

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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Thu Oct 14 13:34:04 1999
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From: "Colleen McDonald Hinrichs" <Colleen@mackie.com>
To: h-costume@indra.com
Subject: H-COST: Recent posts
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-Poster: "Colleen McDonald Hinrichs" <Colleen@Mackie.com>

Greetings, 

I don't post often, in fact, hardly at all.  But the last couple of comments relating to the garb for sale on ebay set me to thinking.

I realize that the majority of the costumers on this list are experts (I, on the other hand, am not anywhere close to that.)  However, I would respectfully ask people to stop and consider what they post and how it might be taken.  

I'll grant that the description could have been written to more appropriately describe the outfit.

The person who has that outfit for sale may be on this list (or they may not).  My point is that the commentary that just went on could intimidate or offend, or, at the very least, make newcomers or people who are not experts think that we are not interested in helping them improve.  I know if I read comments like that about something I made, I would think long and hard about *ever* posting anything to this list.  (I would post the comments, but I deleted the emails already...)

Please don't flame me for this - I am just asking people to be considerate of others.

Colleen



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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Thu Oct 14 13:37:00 1999
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-Poster: Merouda the True of Beaumaris <keltia@serv.net>

> Okay, I have been trying to figure out how to ask this question for weeks
> about this type of costume.  Where did people come up with this idea of the
> front lacing bodice?

Probably from paintings like this.  Granted the "wench" bodices aren't accurate
but many of the bodices in these paintings do lace in the front.
http://www.lepg.org/gallery.htm

Cynthia
--
Cynthia Long
Merouda the True of Beaumaris
Barony of Madrone
Kingdom of An Tir


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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Thu Oct 14 13:41:11 1999
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From: "Karie Mitchell" <allessandre@hotmail.com>
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Subject: Re: H-COST: Check this out!
Date: Thu, 14 Oct 1999 11:54:13 PDT
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-Poster: "Karie Mitchell" <allessandre@hotmail.com>

>http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=180321545

Ok - joke's over.  Well I guess it could be a RenFaire costume (if it was 
decorated a bit) - but really.  Denim-like?  (eeeew)

Allessandre / Karie

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From: rio@austin.rr.com (StrangeGirl)
To: h-costume@indra.com
Subject: Re: H-COST: Check this out!
Date: Thu, 14 Oct 1999 19:15:00 GMT
Organization: The Corner of my Desk
Message-ID: <380f2b5c.128008614@smtp-server.austin.rr.com>
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-Poster: rio@austin.rr.com (StrangeGirl)

On Thu, 14 Oct 1999 11:54:13 PDT, the following was written in this
electric book by "Karie Mitchell" <allessandre@hotmail.com>:

>
>-Poster: "Karie Mitchell" <allessandre@hotmail.com>
>
>>http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=180321545
>
>Ok - joke's over.  Well I guess it could be a RenFaire costume (if it was 
>decorated a bit) - but really.  Denim-like?  (eeeew)

They probably mean twill. And if you take the hoop out, it's kind of
an okay rennfaire boothie costume. Maybe if it wasn't laced up with
white shoelaces.

The hat's nice. But it doesn't go with the outfit.

Margery
"Do you have any files?"
"We're the government, of course we have files."
Millenium
{*to reply take spambegone from my reply-to address*}
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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Thu Oct 14 14:13:57 1999
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Date: Thu, 14 Oct 1999 15:26:37 EDT
Subject: Re: H-COST: Check this out!
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-Poster: CONNECT@aol.com

In a message dated 99-10-14 14:45:18 EDT, you write:

<< Where did people come up with this idea of the
 front lacing bodice? >>

Off the top of my head I can cite the More Family portrait with the daughters 
in Tudor dresses that clearly show lacing in the front. I'm sure there are 
others.

Yours,
Pattie Rayl
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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Thu Oct 14 15:31:48 1999
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To: Multiple recipients of list H-COSTUME <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: H-COST: new pattern?
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-Poster: ches@io.com

McCalls has a pattern that I have never seen before

http://www.nampa.net/lucretia/9-10pattern9427.jpg

Is this new? What do you all think of it? What fixes can we do?

Sincerely,
F. Havas
ches@io.com

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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Thu Oct 14 15:34:43 1999
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Subject: Was Re: H-COST: OT: Neiman Marcus, Now Gender Issues
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-Poster: AnnoraK@aol.com


"I was able but since I am not a *lady* I have no opinion on the site."

<gets up on soapbox>
I would just like to say that I, for one, am getting very tired of seeing 
responses to this effect every time someone addresses a post generally to the 
"ladies/women/girls/females" of the list.  We all understand there are males 
on this list.  That point was clearly made several months ago when this 
behavior began.  However, everyone slips up in their postings from time to 
time, and Ches did send out a post apologizing for her error immediately 
after her initial post about the site. 

If the lady/gentleman thing is such a big deal and so offensive, then don't 
read the post that makes the error.  Or better yet, just let it go.  Please 
don't waste everyone's bandwidth by making comments such as the one above.  
It really serves no purpose.  
<steps off soapbox>

--Jen
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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Thu Oct 14 15:52:16 1999
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Date: Thu, 14 Oct 1999 14:07:08 -0700
From: Merouda the True of Beaumaris <keltia@serv.net>
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Subject: H-COST: Extant fabrics?
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-Poster: Merouda the True of Beaumaris <keltia@serv.net>

So, if you had the opportunity to have a private tour of the Henry Art
Gallery's costume and textile collection pre-1600 in Seattle would you
travel far to do it?  From Idaho? Oregon? Saskatchewan?  I am thinking
of trying to work out a tour with the curator and I have to know that
I could get a sizable amount of people together to make it worth her
while to come in on a Saturday, say 30-40.  They have to un-store the
things, then set them up, and then just be there.

So, how many of you would be interested?  Please respond to me
privately for a head count.  Do not respond to the lists.

Thanks!
Cynthia/Merouda
--
Cynthia Long
Merouda the True of Beaumaris
Barony of Madrone
Kingdom of An Tir


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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Thu Oct 14 15:52:45 1999
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From: Cynthia Virtue <cvirtue@thibault.org>
Organization: Virtue Ventures http://www.virtue.to
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-Poster: Cynthia Virtue <cvirtue@thibault.org>


> http://www.nampa.net/lucretia/9-10pattern9427.jpg
> 
> Is this new? What do you all think of it? What fixes can we do?

To fix it, I'd recommend going out and buying Simplicity's Italian Ren,
and never opening the McCall's.

That said, I could see that it would work for someone who just wanted a
halloween costume, without spending a lot of time on the more-accurate
details that most of us on this list enjoy doing.

cv
--
October 12 is the day the UN figures that Earth's population will hit 6
Billion (6,000,000,000)
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Date: Thu, 14 Oct 1999 14:04:39 -0700
To: h-costume@indra.com
From: Lynn Downward <ldownward@chori.org>
Subject: Re: Was Re: H-COST: OT: Neiman Marcus, Now Gender Issues
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-Poster: Lynn Downward <ldownward@chori.org>

>-Poster: AnnoraK@aol.com
>
>
>"I was able but since I am not a *lady* I have no opinion on the site."
>
><gets up on soapbox>
>I would just like to say that I, for one, am getting very tired of seeing
>responses to this effect every time someone addresses a post generally to the
>"ladies/women/girls/females" of the list.  We all understand there are males
>on this list.  That point was clearly made several months ago when this
>behavior began.  However, everyone slips up in their postings from time to
>time, and Ches did send out a post apologizing for her error immediately
>after her initial post about the site.
>
>If the lady/gentleman thing is such a big deal and so offensive, then don't
>read the post that makes the error.  Or better yet, just let it go.  Please
>don't waste everyone's bandwidth by making comments such as the one above.
>It really serves no purpose.
><steps off soapbox>
>
>--Jen


And I agree completely with Jen.  And I'm hoping that he who was quoted in
the first sentence was making a joke, however heavy-handed, and not simply
an unkind posting.  Listen, guys, we've been dealing with "the man's world'
garbage throughout history; lighten up

But, somehow, and more importantly, with an electrical outage during the
night at work, I missed the original Neiman marcus posting.  Would someone
please mind repeating it?

TIA,
LynnD
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Date: Thu, 14 Oct 1999 14:12:24 -0700
To: h-costume@indra.com
From: Lynn Downward <ldownward@chori.org>
Subject: Re: H-COST: new pattern?
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-Poster: Lynn Downward <ldownward@chori.org>

>-Poster: ches@io.com
>
>McCalls has a pattern that I have never seen before
>
>http://www.nampa.net/lucretia/9-10pattern9427.jpg
>
>Is this new? What do you all think of it? What fixes can we do?
>
>Sincerely,
>F. Havas
>ches@io.com
>
>
This pattern is at least a year old; I remember seeing it last Halloween.
A propos to the Check this out! suggestions, I can only suggest that anyone
making this costume skip the Burger King crown.

And it's perfectly lovely for Florida weather. (End of quote.)  ;>

LynnD
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From: "Kyna Grannd" <kynagrannd@granndgarb.com>
To: <h-costume@indra.com>
References: <s805c393.035@Mackie.com>
Subject: Re: H-COST: Recent posts
Date: Thu, 14 Oct 1999 16:53:03 -0400
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-Poster: "Kyna Grannd" <kynagrannd@granndgarb.com>

>
> -Poster: "Colleen McDonald Hinrichs" <Colleen@Mackie.com>
>
> Greetings,
>
> I don't post often, in fact, hardly at all.  But the last couple of
comments relating to the garb for sale on ebay set me to thinking.
>
> I realize that the majority of the costumers on this list are experts (I,
on the other hand, am not anywhere close to that.)  However, I would
respectfully ask people to stop and consider what they post and how it might
be taken.
>
> I'll grant that the description could have been written to more
appropriately describe the outfit.
>
> The person who has that outfit for sale may be on this list (or they may
not).  My point is that the commentary that just went on could intimidate or
offend, or, at the very least, make newcomers or people who are not experts
think that we are not interested in helping them improve.  I know if I read
comments like that about something I made, I would think long and hard about
*ever* posting anything to this list.  (I would post the comments, but I
deleted the emails already...)
>
> Please don't flame me for this - I am just asking people to be considerate
of others.
>
> Colleen
>

Greetings all,

I have to agree with Colleen on this one. There are some things on Ebay
where they are 50's dresses or standard off the rack old dresses that the
seller probably thinks "this renaissance stuff is going quick and for high
prices...I wanna get in on some of the action." These types make me cringe.
They try and push off just about anything as "great for the renaissance
fair".

However there is another type out there. They are the new home seamstresses
who are trying to make a few extra dollars. They buy store patterns, sew
them and sell them to people who might otherwise have *nothing* even
remotely atmospheric looking to wear to the renaissance fair or their first
SCA event. I don't think these people, who are making a genuine effort and
creating the garb themselves should be knocked. I looked at the photos and
the garment appears to be well made with some attention to detail, like the
matching waist pouch with a flap. Even the materials picked are better than
alot of the Historic Clothing Businesses out there use. From the description
I'm imagining it's a cotton twill.

True, the person that put the url up might not be a regular member and might
have been "advertising" to what was thought their intended market. That
shouldn't have happened. But do be at least helpful in posts and point out
pleasantly, what might have been down to make it more period or better sewn.
I don't think anyone wants to chase away someone new to sewing and the SCA
because they area worried that their efforts, which may not have been as
good as the Ebay item in their eyes, will draw the same pointed tongues.

::lecture mode off::

Regards,

~Kyna Grannd

Grannd Garb
Historic Clothing Supplies and Accessories
info@granndgarb.com
http://GranndGarb.com
ICQ#12859312


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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Thu Oct 14 16:05:00 1999
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From: "Jessica Wilbur" <jessica@pop.net>
To: h-costume@indra.com
Date: Thu, 14 Oct 1999 17:15:47 -0400
Subject: H-COST: Hair Shirt?
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-Poster: "Jessica Wilbur" <jessica@pop.net>

Hello all,

My mom asked if I knew what type of material hair shirts were made of in the Middle Ages. 
Her guess was some type of unrefined animal hair, and I took that one step further to 
guess maybe at a loosely spun wool. (A woolen as opposed to a worsted?) Does anyone 
out there know for sure, or have another theory? We're just curious.

Thanks!
--Jessica
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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Thu Oct 14 16:10:08 1999
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-Poster: Merouda the True of Beaumaris <keltia@serv.net>

> My mom asked if I knew what type of material hair shirts were made of in the Middle Ages.
> Her guess was some type of unrefined animal hair, and I took that one step further to
> guess maybe at a loosely spun wool. (A woolen as opposed to a worsted?) Does anyone
> out there know for sure, or have another theory? We're just curious.

Being *no* expert on this, I will jump in with what I have heard.

I was under the impression that the a hair shirt was a shirt made from the skin of a goat (I
think) and then worn fur side in.

I'd love to know the reality.

Cynthia
--
Cynthia Long
Merouda the True of Beaumaris
Barony of Madrone
Kingdom of An Tir


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-Poster: Margo Anderson <margo@directcon.net>

A. I don't think these people, who are making a genuine effort and
>creating the garb themselves should be knocked. I looked at the photos and
>the garment appears to be well made with some attention to detail, like the
>matching waist pouch with a flap. Even the materials picked are better than
>alot of the Historic Clothing Businesses out there use. From the description
>I'm imagining it's a cotton twill.
>
True, but I would have been more impressed if the seller hadn't told a flat
out lie about the periods for which it was appropriate. And if she didn't
know any better, she should have spent five minutes with a costume book to
learn.  

Margo

"One Tough Costumer"
http://www.directcon.net/wander/main.htm

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Date: Thu, 14 Oct 1999 17:58:40 EDT
Subject: Re: H-COST: Quick trip to NYC
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-Poster: Fopdejour1@aol.com

In a message dated 10/14/99 4:11:28 PM !!!First Boot!!!, 
fairmans@teleport.com writes:

<< Hi
 >
 > I've been thinking about a weekend trip for my husband & I (& our 3 kids) 
in
 > late October & was wondering if anyone had any ideas about interesting
 > costume/museum outtings for us.  The kids are 12,11,10 & would love to do
 > some really fun stuff.  I would like to drop by anywhere that has any
 > costume exhibits, European Art (or a great fabric store).  We'd also be
 > looking for somewhere to stay -- fairly central & pretty CHEAP.
 >
 > Looking forward to any help you can offer (reply privately if you wish!)
 >
 > Thanks >>


Hi,
      OK, The Metropolitan Museum of Art is spectacular...it has a costume 
gallery..not very big, but some nice stuff.  When I was there right after 
Versacce  died, they had an exhibit of his costumes that he had designed, but 
right now ( I was there in Ausgust) They have an exhibit of white garments 
through history.  Starts about the time of Louis XIV and works foreward...all 
the dresses and clothing is in white...pretty spectacular....anyhow...I could 
ramble forever.
    When I go to NY, I always spend a day between there and The Cloisters.  
The Cloisters is the branch of the Metropolitan that deals with medieval 
art....it is fantastic if you like that time period....some wonderful samples 
of medieval velvets and brocades can be found there.  Here is where The 
Unicorn Tapestries are housed.  There weapons and all kinds of art stuff that 
might apeal to kids.  You can catch the number 4 bus to the Cloisters...it's 
the last stop on the route before turning around....it's on the very 
northern? tip of manhatten if you catch the bus somewhere in the 30's ie 
31st, 32nd st etc....you will get a really nice drive across the island.  you 
will see some increadible churches on the route, as well as seeing the island 
it self.  
    The Cloisters and the Met are closed on Monday, but on Saturday the Met 
closes at 9.  What I do, is hit the Cloisters early when they open ( 9 or 10 
I believe) and spend some time there, head out about 2 and take a bus back to 
The Met and spend some time there untill closing at 9.  It's not ideal if you 
want to see everything, but It works if you only have a Saturday in which to 
see them.
    Along with everything else...The Met has an increadible armour 
exhibit...the kids might like this....swords, helms, plate armour, horse 
armour, all the trappings!!!!
I'm not sure if this was posted yet, if so.....sorry, if not that's one of my 
suggestions.

Chas
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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Thu Oct 14 16:48:43 1999
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From: "Cynthia Barnes" <Cynthia_Barnes@phoenix.com>
To: "H-Costume (E-mail)" <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: H-COST: Pourpoints & Houppelands
Date: Thu, 14 Oct 1999 15:00:29 -0700
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-Poster: "Cynthia Barnes" <Cynthia_Barnes@phoenix.com>


Robin, and any of the other ladies & gents on the Pourpoint thread,
There's an illumination on the inside front cover of "Parades et Parures",
(Boccacio, "De Cleres at Nobles Femmes", circa 1402, BNF Paris). Wish I
could find it online, but the BNF is not responding right now. Here's a
verbal description:
The Seducer: Knee-length houppeland, body portion black, assiettes bright
pink, turning into bag sleeves? w/ yellow-green dagging; lined w/ brown fur;
red-orange pointy toed boots.
Demoiselle studying: Yellow (deep gold) houppeland, w/ safety orange lining
visible inside dagged sleeve, matching orange belt, fitted sleeves of a deep
purple cotte visible.

My questions are these:
Is his pink & black garment truly a houppeland even in this different cut?
Is it a haincelin?
Are the sleeves still cut in the same "grandes assiette manner"? If so, how
does it turn into a bag?
Is his dagging applied as trim, set into a seam I cant see or artistic
license?
--cin
Cynthia Barnes
408.570.1023
Cynthia_Barnes@phoenix.com
Phoenix Technologies
411 E. Plumeria Dr.
San Jose CA 95134
"I think animal testing is a terrible idea; they get all nervous and give
the wrong answers."

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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Thu Oct 14 16:50:09 1999
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Date: Thu, 14 Oct 1999 18:02:41 EDT
Subject: Re: H-COST: Check this out!
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-Poster: Fopdejour1@aol.com

Oh dear......1200-1700.....hmmm, quite a versatile outfit I would assume 
<grin>

Chas
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-Poster: Appin1@aol.com

Yet another reason for me to go back to Bruges....

Kathleen Norvell
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-Poster: Appin1@aol.com

Let me add to the list of 17th century reenactment groups:

McLean's Company of O'Donnell's Regiment of Irishe Foote (English Civil War)

c/o David S. Mallinak
4301 29th St.
Mount Rainer, MD 20712
matchlck@erols.com

I have been a member of this company for many years. I think we were the only 
group NOT mentioned in the Smoke & Fire article on the Battle of the Severn.

Kathleen Norvell
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To: h-costume@indra.com
Subject: Re: H-COST: Extant fabrics?
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-Poster: "StitchWitch" <stitchwitch@excite.com>


> So, if you had the opportunity to have a private tour of the Henry Art
> Gallery's costume and textile collection pre-1600 in Seattle would you
> travel far to do it?  

>From the moon, if need be! Heck, I'd even help 'em set the darn thing up! I
hope this works out! (Gee, I use '!' a lot . . .)

Kate
----
StitchWitch

A learned bastard takes precedence over an ignorant high priest. - The
Talmud, 5th Cen.




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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Thu Oct 14 17:21:36 1999
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From: "Erica D. Pence" <erica@robesofantiquity.com>
To: <h-costume@indra.com>
References: <199910142131.OAA30103@apollo.directcon.net>
Subject: H-COST: Recent posts
Date: Thu, 14 Oct 1999 18:38:50 -0400
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-Poster: "Erica D. Pence" <erica@robesofantiquity.com>

Colleen wrote:
<...I would respectfully ask people to stop and consider what they post and
how it might be taken...My point is that the commentary that just went on
could intimidate or offend, or, at the very least, make newcomers or people
who are not experts think that we are not interested in helping them
improve...

Kyna wrote:
<But do be at least helpful in posts and point out
pleasantly, what might have been down to make it more period or better sewn.

I must say, I have to agree with Colleen and Kyna.  I also must point out
that I have seen this very same thing happen numerous times on this list and
others.  You have to view this list as a room full of people you barely know
in which everyone can hear exactly what you are saying.  Would you want
everyone in this room to hear the comments and jokes made earlier?  There
are over 350 people on this list....listening.  Please choose your comments
more wisely.  If the dress is wrong, take some time to let others know of
the corrections that need to be made to be accurate.

Someone wrote:
<True, but I would have been more impressed if the seller hadn't told a flat
out lie about the periods for which it was appropriate. And if she didn't
know any better, she should have spent five minutes with a costume book to
learn.

How do you know it is a "lie" and not just a mistake?  How many discussions
has this list had about the inaccuracy of many costume books readily
available, especially for the medieval/renaissance period?  I myself, have
learned from many here that some books I have read are wrong.  Before I came
to this list, I had no idea of the importance of extensive research, sifting
through inaccuracies only to find more questions about what really did
exist.  Then where do you go from there?  The false information given in the
seller's description may very well have come from some of the incorrect
costuming books on the market today.

Once again.  The point of our discussions is not to criticize but to teach
(and learn).  We do not know the person selling the garment on Ebay or what
research he/she may or may not have done.  People are bidding on this
garment because they like it and it's inexpensive.  We also do not know, who
in this room is offended by jokes, non- constructive comments and
accusations.  Let's all please remember that comments should be positive.
Even when giving instructions on improving garments...we need to do it in a
polite manner.

Okay, I am through freaking out.  I should be away from the computer
finsihing my sewing project anyways.

Erica D. Pence
Robes of Antiquity
www.robesofantiquity.com
Warning!  This site is still under-construction.  Online store coming soon!


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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Thu Oct 14 17:33:04 1999
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From: "Erica D. Pence" <erica@robesofantiquity.com>
To: <h-costume@indra.com>
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Subject:  H-COST: Front lacing bodices
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-Poster: "Erica D. Pence" <erica@robesofantiquity.com>

Cynthia wrote:
<Probably from paintings like this.  Granted the "wench" bodices aren't
accurate but many of the bodices in these paintings do lace in the front.
http://www.lepg.org/gallery.htm

I think I am confused.  Aren't these "wench" bodices?  How does a "wench"
bodice differ from the ones shown in the paintings?

Erica D. Pence
Robes of Antiquity
www.robesofantiquity.com
Warning!  This site is still under-construction.  Online store coming soon!

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-Poster: Merouda the True of Beaumaris <keltia@serv.net>

> Granted the "wench" bodices aren't
> accurate but many of the bodices in these paintings do lace in the front.
> http://www.lepg.org/gallery.htm
>
> I think I am confused.  Aren't these "wench" bodices?  How does a "wench"
> bodice differ from the ones shown in the paintings?

Wandering off into opinion territory here.  This is my opinion.  The ladies in
these pictures are ladies with respectable jobs.  They are not wenches.  These
are not wench bodices.

The wench bodices I am familiar with here in my neck of the woods (An
Tir/Seattle WA) lace tightly so that the edges of the fabric meet.  The front
edges of the fabric doesn't meet in those pictues.  And the in the More Family
portrait those front edges don't touch either.  There is a good 5-6 inches of
stomacher showing under the laces.  Wench bodices don't do this.  Many, many
wench bodices here don't even cover the breasts but leave them hanging above or
outside of the bodice front, only the chemise (underwear) covering them for
modesty.  Not very modest.  Not what a respectable medieval woman would have
worn.  Not in my opinion.  Ergo, wench.

Cynthia
--
Cynthia Long
Merouda the True of Beaumaris
Barony of Madrone
Kingdom of An Tir


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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Thu Oct 14 19:36:30 1999
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Date: Thu, 14 Oct 1999 20:49:26 EDT
Subject: H-COST: Re: Hair shirts
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-Poster: Gaelscot@aol.com



I recently saw a picture of one -- a saint's relic -- in a book about saints. 
It was a library book, but I think I still have it. I'll check and report 
tomorrow. But it was NOT any kind of skin worn hair-side in, it was knotted 
from what looked like twine, which was made out of some sort of hair. I don't 
think it was human hair, but I'm not sure. It looked kind of like one of 
those net produce bags, but it was definitely a shirt.

Anyway, it caught my eye because I'd never seen one. And of course, this one 
may not be the way all hair shirts were made. More tomorrow --

Gail

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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Thu Oct 14 20:53:56 1999
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Subject: H-COST: Re: Patterns (was patterns overseas)
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-Poster: Gary Stephens <lgsteph@golden.net>

Hi, Diana,

>What is the name of your business and where are you situated ?Do you
>have a website ?
>(So many questions in one mail ;-)...).

	We're called Five Rivers Chapmanry, located in Orangeville,
Ontario. Website is in the tagline. Apologies if you have difficulty
getting in. Our provider has run across a difficulty and has assured me it
will be corrected this evening. If you do have difficulty, please notify me
and I will keep you apprised of my provider's progress.

	Patterns will not be on the website until mid-December.

Lorina Stephens

--------------------------------------
 Five Rivers Chapmanry ~ purveyors of quality hand-crafted cooperage & fine
hand-sewn garments http://www.5rivers.org e-mail: info@5rivers.org


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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Thu Oct 14 22:04:04 1999
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Date: Thu, 14 Oct 1999 22:10:59 -0500
From: Marc Carlson <marc-carlson@utulsa.edu>
Subject: Re: H-COST: Hair Shirt?
To: h-costume@indra.com
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-Poster: Marc Carlson <marc-carlson@utulsa.edu>

<"Jessica Wilbur" <jessica@pop.net>
> My mom asked if I knew what type of material hair shirts were made of 
>in the Middle Ages. Her guess was some type of unrefined animal hair, 
>and I took that one step further to guess maybe at a loosely spun wool. 
>(A woolen as opposed to a worsted?) Does anyone out there know for 
>sure, or have another theory? We're just curious.

That's easy.  We have an example in St. Birgitta's hair shirt. (a
description of which can be found at
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Parthenon/5923/cloth/brgtagl.html).

It's made from knotted hair from horse and cow tails.

Marc
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-Poster: Margo Anderson <margo@directcon.net>


>
>How do you know it is a "lie" and not just a mistake?  How many discussions
>has this list had about the inaccuracy of many costume books readily
>available, especially for the medieval/renaissance period?  I myself, have
>learned from many here that some books I have read are wrong.  Before I came
>to this list, I had no idea of the importance of extensive research, sifting
>through inaccuracies only to find more questions about what really did
>exist.  Then where do you go from there?  The false information given in the
>seller's description may very well have come from some of the incorrect
>costuming books on the market today.
>
Well, I've been reading costume books, good and bad, for a lot of years, and
I can't recall ever seeing one that would give the impression that a boned,
laced bodice, drawstring necked smock, skirt worn over hoops, and flat cap
would be "typical of middle class european ladies in the period from the
1200's to the 17'00's."

However, out of curiousity, I have emailed the seller and asked her how she
arrived at these dates.  If she answers, I'll share her reply with the list.  

Margo Anderson 


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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Thu Oct 14 22:43:24 1999
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From: "Michelle" <mandrake@mypad.com>
To: <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: H-COST: Recent posts
Date: Thu, 14 Oct 1999 21:08:50 -0700
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-Poster: "Michelle" <mandrake@mypad.com>



I can't seem to figure out why the reserve hasn't been met yet. When I
looked at it it was at 138.00. I wonder how much the seller is wanting for
it.   It seems a little pricy to me but, I sew.
  As far as what Margo said about the '5 minutes to learn,' I wonder if the
seller  is quoting the pattern. That may have been the years quoted by the
pattern producers.  I am not sure where the pattern came from though.
Michelle
>-Poster: Margo Anderson <margo@directcon.net>
>
>A. I don't think these people, who are making a genuine effort and
>>creating the garb themselves should be knocked. I looked at the photos and
>>the garment appears to be well made with some attention to detail, like
the
>>matching waist pouch with a flap. Even the materials picked are better
than
>>alot of the Historic Clothing Businesses out there use. From the
description
>>I'm imagining it's a cotton twill.
>>
>True, but I would have been more impressed if the seller hadn't told a flat
>out lie about the periods for which it was appropriate. And if she didn't
>know any better, she should have spent five minutes with a costume book to
>learn.
>
>Margo
>
>"One Tough Costumer"
>http://www.directcon.net/wander/main.htm
>

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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Thu Oct 14 22:55:41 1999
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From: Pierre & Sandy Pettinger <costumrs@radiks.net>
Subject: H-COST: Re: NY trip
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-Poster: Pierre & Sandy Pettinger <costumrs@radiks.net>

Don't forget the Bob Mackie exhibit (wish I could go-he's one of my
favorite designers!)
Bob Mackie is having a retrospective exhibit of his work starting today
(Sept. 21) at Fashion Institute of Technology (FIT) in NY. It will include
150 of his gowns, plus photos and videos as well as the outfits.

Can anyone tell me if there's a book/catalogue?  How to get it?  TIA.

Sandy

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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Thu Oct 14 23:43:37 1999
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From: "The Rogue" <the_rogue@imag.net>
To: <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: H-COST: Hair Shirt?
Date: Thu, 14 Oct 1999 21:56:50 -0700
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-Poster: "The Rogue" <the_rogue@imag.net>

While not claiming in any way to be an expert, I have read (have forgotten
sources) that horsehair (mane or tail) was woven or somehow knitted
together.  No doubt in the most uncomfortable way.  I also recall that
Hercules, in a recurring variation of the Greek myth, was killed by wearing
a shirt woven of the poisoned hair of a Centaur.

Zelda
-----Original Message-----
From: Merouda the True of Beaumaris <keltia@serv.net>
To: h-costume@indra.com <h-costume@indra.com>
Date: October 14, 1999 2:23 PM
Subject: Re: H-COST: Hair Shirt?


>
>-Poster: Merouda the True of Beaumaris <keltia@serv.net>
>
>> My mom asked if I knew what type of material hair shirts were made of in
the Middle Ages.
>> Her guess was some type of unrefined animal hair, and I took that one
step further to
>> guess maybe at a loosely spun wool. (A woolen as opposed to a worsted?)
Does anyone
>> out there know for sure, or have another theory? We're just curious.
>
>Being *no* expert on this, I will jump in with what I have heard.
>
>I was under the impression that the a hair shirt was a shirt made from the
skin of a goat (I
>think) and then worn fur side in.
>
>I'd love to know the reality.
>
>Cynthia
>--
>Cynthia Long
>Merouda the True of Beaumaris
>Barony of Madrone
>Kingdom of An Tir
>
>

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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Thu Oct 14 23:50:57 1999
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From: "The Rogue" <the_rogue@imag.net>
To: <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: H-COST: Hair Shirt?/Ebay
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-Poster: "The Rogue" <the_rogue@imag.net>

Wow!!  AM I ever glad that Marc has posted this, because it feels so good to
have been on the right track with my earlier posting.  Hate to lead anyone
astray with wrong info.

I looked at the Ebay site - and wished that more people that attended SCA
events in my area got at least this close, or even cracked a book to see if
the write up is at all accurate.  We have a lot of fabulous costumers in the
area who are willing to teach, but few new people seem to want to learn from
them.

My 2 pence worth,
Zelda


-----Original Message-----
From: Marc Carlson <marc-carlson@utulsa.edu>
To: h-costume@indra.com <h-costume@indra.com>
Date: October 14, 1999 8:19 PM
Subject: Re: H-COST: Hair Shirt?


>
>-Poster: Marc Carlson <marc-carlson@utulsa.edu>
>
><"Jessica Wilbur" <jessica@pop.net>
>> My mom asked if I knew what type of material hair shirts were made of
>>in the Middle Ages. Her guess was some type of unrefined animal hair,
>>and I took that one step further to guess maybe at a loosely spun wool.
>>(A woolen as opposed to a worsted?) Does anyone out there know for
>>sure, or have another theory? We're just curious.
>
>That's easy.  We have an example in St. Birgitta's hair shirt. (a
>description of which can be found at
>http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Parthenon/5923/cloth/brgtagl.html).
>
>It's made from knotted hair from horse and cow tails.
>
>Marc

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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Fri Oct 15 00:57:00 1999
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-Poster: Margo Anderson <margo@directcon.net>

It's been pointed out to me that it was rude of me to say that the person
selling the "1200-1700 Wench Dress"  was lying when she wrote her description.

I truly believed that no one could possibly get it this wrong without
deliberate falsehood.  However, I just got this email from the seller:  

>The dates as stated are incorrect, it's 1400's to 1700's Elizabethan
>according to several SCA members who do that period and to the costume books
>that I rely on for pictures.

Okay, I take it back, some people (and, apparently, some books) really are
that unknowing.

Margo Anderson


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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Fri Oct 15 01:16:09 1999
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-Poster: MzScahlett@aol.com

In rereading all the well-intentioned comments which are in opposition to the 
others of us on this list having fun at the expense of an obviously 
ill-informed 
E-bay seller, I have to say that I must take issue with the presumption that 
the seller should be treated with kid gloves.  She is offering something for 
sale, and is putting forth the item together with a representation as to its 
authenticity.  This is something about which we (the list) have a great deal 
of collective knowledge.  It is fair game.  It is not the same as attacking 
someone who came to this list for advice or offering an opinion.  It is also 
really hard not to notice that anyone would state that any garment was 
appropriate to cover a 500-year time period under any circumstances.  I think 
there is some burden of responsibility for accuracy in information incumbent 
on anyone who is trying to sell me something and who is claiming to know 
something about that item.

I understand that the list should remain as pleasant a place as possible to 
exchange ideas,  but it [the seller's claim] was an amusing statement, and 
since it was given under the guise of alleged knowledge about the suitability 
of an item which was for sale, I think its examination here totally 
appropriate.  I honestly don't think it's worth all this much hoo hah.

It just seems that if we cannot speak critically about "Historical Costume" 
(and that's just what the seller was claiming to be selling) then we should 
just up and disband now, folks.   JMHO

angela
+++++
Angela F. Lazear
Costumes & Custom Clothing
Theatrical Costume Design
"Do you not know I am a woman?.  When I think, I must speak."
As You Like It; III, ii - W. Shakespeare
QUICK-LINK: http://come.to/costumes
FULL URL: http://sj.znet.com/~thespian/angil/index.html
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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Fri Oct 15 02:09:34 1999
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From: "maureen+ brown" <edolen@excite.com>
To: h-costume@indra.com
Subject: H-COST: Japanese hakama patterns
Message-Id: <939972154.26562.599@excite.com>
Date: Fri, 15 Oct 1999 00:22:34 PDT
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-Poster: "maureen+ brown" <edolen@excite.com>

Hi, I'm looking for a hakama pattern;  I've found the Folkwear Pattern,
Round Earth and Costume Connection ones.  Does anyone know of any others and
can anyone comment on these patterns?  The Costume Connection one looks
wrong (no pleats, added belt)..but it's hard to tell in the illustration.
Thanks!

     --Maureen




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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Fri Oct 15 03:38:10 1999
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Subject: Re: H-COST: Costume Trip To Seattle
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-Poster: Mayfair13a@aol.com

Greetings Friends,

Please allow me to apologize for the bandwidth, but I deleted the post 
regarding the textile "tour" in Seattle.  For the record I WOULD travel to 
it.  A days drive for myself & at least 4 or 5 others in our local costuming 
guild.  Please e-mail me privately w/the information.

Sorry to take up the space.

Cheers
Pasha
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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Fri Oct 15 03:57:26 1999
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From: Dietmar <dietmar@pacbell.net>
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Subject: H-COST: Re: new pattern?
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-Poster: Dietmar <dietmar@pacbell.net>

Greetings Franchesca wrote:

> McCalls has a pattern that I have never seen before
>
> http://www.nampa.net/lucretia/9-10pattern9427.jpg
>
> Is this new? What do you all think of it? What fixes can we do?

I don't know if it's new, or how to fix it, but my first impressions were
rather silly. I suppose the openings at the shoulder and forearm (should be
elbow) are where the chemise is supposed to puff through, but at first glance,
it looks like she got it caught on a door knob and just pulled. That would
explain the hole in the forearm and the tear at the shoulder. :-}

The one on the left, I'd at least switch the colors and make the chemise
off-white and the overdress blue.

Just musing,

Dietmar


"Victory or Defeat rests in God's hands;
 over Honor, we ourselves are Lord and Master."
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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Fri Oct 15 05:46:38 1999
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Subject: Re: H-COST: Japanese hakama patterns
Date: Fri, 15 Oct 1999 07:04:51 -0500
x-sender: tr002203-elisee@williams.tricreations.com
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From: Elisee du Lyonnais <elisee@sewingcentral.com>
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-Poster: Elisee du Lyonnais <elisee@sewingcentral.com>

I carry the Costume Connection pattern.  The hakama does have several 
large pleats stitched onto two belts, one that ties to the front, with an 
added trapezoidal shape in the back, and one that ties to the back.  It 
makes up beautifully and looks comfortable to wear.  The hakama take over 
4 yards of 60" wide fabric, 4 7/8 in the larger sizes in 45".

I would be interested in contact information for Round Earth to add them 
to the stock of the shop.

Lisee
www.sewingcentral.com

maureen+ brown wrote:

>
>-Poster: "maureen+ brown" <edolen@excite.com>
>
>Hi, I'm looking for a hakama pattern;  I've found the Folkwear Pattern,
>Round Earth and Costume Connection ones.  Does anyone know of any others and
>can anyone comment on these patterns?  The Costume Connection one looks
>wrong (no pleats, added belt)..but it's hard to tell in the illustration.
>Thanks!
>
>     --Maureen
>
>
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From: "Kyna Grannd" <kynagrannd@granndgarb.com>
To: <h-costume@indra.com>
References: <0.5fa7a417.253823f0@aol.com>
Subject: Re: H-COST: Recent posts
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-Poster: "Kyna Grannd" <kynagrannd@granndgarb.com>



>
> -Poster: MzScahlett@aol.com
>
> In rereading all the well-intentioned comments which are in opposition to
the
> others of us on this list having fun at the expense of an obviously
> ill-informed
> E-bay seller, I have to say that I must take issue with the presumption
that
> the seller should be treated with kid gloves.  She is offering something
for
> sale, and is putting forth the item together with a representation as to
its
> authenticity.  This is something about which we (the list) have a great
deal
> of collective knowledge.  It is fair game.  It is not the same as
attacking
> someone who came to this list for advice or offering an opinion.  It is
also
> really hard not to notice that anyone would state that any garment was
> appropriate to cover a 500-year time period under any circumstances.  I
think
> there is some burden of responsibility for accuracy in information
incumbent
> on anyone who is trying to sell me something and who is claiming to know
> something about that item.
>
> I understand that the list should remain as pleasant a place as possible
to
> exchange ideas,  but it [the seller's claim] was an amusing statement, and
> since it was given under the guise of alleged knowledge about the
suitability
> of an item which was for sale, I think its examination here totally
> appropriate.  I honestly don't think it's worth all this much hoo hah.
>
> It just seems that if we cannot speak critically about "Historical
Costume"
> (and that's just what the seller was claiming to be selling) then we
should
> just up and disband now, folks.   JMHO
>
> angela


Very true Angela, and posts that do speak critically but constructfully are
not what I was referring to. Margo was the only one that jumped in as a
defense sort of, but I wasn't singling her out, hers at least listed
something she thought incorrect as did some others.  Unfortunately I just
cleaned out my email folders about two days ago and don't have any of the
comments saved. If I remember correctly some were along the lines of "can
you believe their selling this" and seeming to laugh. No constructive
criticism in that. It was just a suggestion that rather than making a
comment which could be construed as laughing at the person, or catty and not
giving a constructive reason why or suggestions as to what could have been
done, the statement serves no purpose. ::shrugs:: If something is that bad
in someone's eyes that it's below examination and constructive comment,
perhaps it doesn't need comment at all. Because someone reading this list
that doesn't know *why* folks are seeming to be I can't think of the right
word, because cruel is too strong but I think you understand what I'm
getting at. Comments like "Oh my gawd ::laughs::"  might turn of a newer
lurking member off, so that we never get to hear their questions and
observations on *worthy* topics. I certainly wasn't suggesting that people
not criticize....just that perhaps they should consider doing it in a
constructive and helpful manner...for the sake of others on the list in this
case, who may have thought there was nothing wrong with the scope of dates
1200-1700 for that dress.

Last on that subject from me :::chuckles:: *it's* not worthy of a huge
debate and taking the lists time...I just wanted to clarify.

~Kyna

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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Fri Oct 15 07:30:04 1999
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Date: Fri, 15 Oct 1999 05:56:34 -0700 (PDT)
From: Sarah Toney <sarah_and_pooh@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: H-COST: Re: new pattern?
To: h-costume@indra.com
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-Poster: Sarah Toney <sarah_and_pooh@yahoo.com>


I bought this pattern for the underdress... but I
figured out that if you have any talent at patterning
for yourself whatsoever, it was alltogether
unnecessary... but for some people who don't have that
knack, it was okay... but I must say, I really don't
like the overdress... personal preference...

Sarah

--- Dietmar <dietmar@pacbell.net> wrote:
> 
> -Poster: Dietmar <dietmar@pacbell.net>
> 
> Greetings Franchesca wrote:
> 
> > McCalls has a pattern that I have never seen
> before
> >
> > http://www.nampa.net/lucretia/9-10pattern9427.jpg
> >
> > Is this new? What do you all think of it? What
> fixes can we do?
> 
> I don't know if it's new, or how to fix it, but my
> first impressions were
> rather silly. I suppose the openings at the shoulder
> and forearm (should be
> elbow) are where the chemise is supposed to puff
> through, but at first glance,
> it looks like she got it caught on a door knob and
> just pulled. That would
> explain the hole in the forearm and the tear at the
> shoulder. :-}
> 
> The one on the left, I'd at least switch the colors
> and make the chemise
> off-white and the overdress blue.
> 
> Just musing,
> 
> Dietmar
> 
> 
> "Victory or Defeat rests in God's hands;
>  over Honor, we ourselves are Lord and Master."
> 


=====

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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Fri Oct 15 07:52:13 1999
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From: "Diane M. Mathews" <camelothorse@earthlink.net>
To: <h-costume@indra.com>
References: <0.5fa7a417.253823f0@aol.com> <002b01bf1706$10f50940$cb860318@avnl1.nj.home.com>
Subject: Re: H-COST: Recent posts
Date: Fri, 15 Oct 1999 08:10:33 -0500
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-Poster: "Diane M. Mathews" <camelothorse@earthlink.net>

As a new arrival with the SCA and an ademate lurker, I want you to know that
I got the BEST laugh out of this one and the starting comments about the
garment.  In fact, I did not get irritated until the members of the list
began slamming each other.  Please---let's just laugh and have some fun with
it !  I happen to agree that someone who presents themself as an expert and
gives incorrect information has left themselves open for any insuing
comments and the information about how incorrect the dress was might have
saved a new SCA mamber from purchasing the gown and thinking it would be
appropriate for their time period.   Back to lurking !

Gwinevere
----- Original Message -----
From: Kyna Grannd <kynagrannd@granndgarb.com>
To: <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Friday, October 15, 1999 7:09 AM
Subject: Re: H-COST: Recent posts


>
> -Poster: "Kyna Grannd" <kynagrannd@granndgarb.com>
>
>
>
> >
> > -Poster: MzScahlett@aol.com
> >
> > In rereading all the well-intentioned comments which are in opposition
to
> the
> > others of us on this list having fun at the expense of an obviously
> > ill-informed
> > E-bay seller, I have to say that I must take issue with the presumption
> that
> > the seller should be treated with kid gloves.  She is offering something
> for
> > sale, and is putting forth the item together with a representation as to
> its
> > authenticity.  This is something about which we (the list) have a great
> deal
> > of collective knowledge.  It is fair game.  It is not the same as
> attacking
> > someone who came to this list for advice or offering an opinion.  It is
> also
> > really hard not to notice that anyone would state that any garment was
> > appropriate to cover a 500-year time period under any circumstances.  I
> think
> > there is some burden of responsibility for accuracy in information
> incumbent
> > on anyone who is trying to sell me something and who is claiming to know
> > something about that item.
> >
> > I understand that the list should remain as pleasant a place as possible
> to
> > exchange ideas,  but it [the seller's claim] was an amusing statement,
and
> > since it was given under the guise of alleged knowledge about the
> suitability
> > of an item which was for sale, I think its examination here totally
> > appropriate.  I honestly don't think it's worth all this much hoo hah.
> >
> > It just seems that if we cannot speak critically about "Historical
> Costume"
> > (and that's just what the seller was claiming to be selling) then we
> should
> > just up and disband now, folks.   JMHO
> >
> > angela
>
>
> Very true Angela, and posts that do speak critically but constructfully
are
> not what I was referring to. Margo was the only one that jumped in as a
> defense sort of, but I wasn't singling her out, hers at least listed
> something she thought incorrect as did some others.  Unfortunately I just
> cleaned out my email folders about two days ago and don't have any of the
> comments saved. If I remember correctly some were along the lines of "can
> you believe their selling this" and seeming to laugh. No constructive
> criticism in that. It was just a suggestion that rather than making a
> comment which could be construed as laughing at the person, or catty and
not
> giving a constructive reason why or suggestions as to what could have been
> done, the statement serves no purpose. ::shrugs:: If something is that bad
> in someone's eyes that it's below examination and constructive comment,
> perhaps it doesn't need comment at all. Because someone reading this list
> that doesn't know *why* folks are seeming to be I can't think of the right
> word, because cruel is too strong but I think you understand what I'm
> getting at. Comments like "Oh my gawd ::laughs::"  might turn of a newer
> lurking member off, so that we never get to hear their questions and
> observations on *worthy* topics. I certainly wasn't suggesting that people
> not criticize....just that perhaps they should consider doing it in a
> constructive and helpful manner...for the sake of others on the list in
this
> case, who may have thought there was nothing wrong with the scope of dates
> 1200-1700 for that dress.
>
> Last on that subject from me :::chuckles:: *it's* not worthy of a huge
> debate and taking the lists time...I just wanted to clarify.
>
> ~Kyna
>
>

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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Fri Oct 15 07:59:21 1999
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Date: Fri, 15 Oct 1999 06:26:12 -0700 (PDT)
From: Sarah Toney <sarah_and_pooh@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: H-COST: Recent posts
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-Poster: Sarah Toney <sarah_and_pooh@yahoo.com>

Okay, I will apologize for my earlier post... but I
guess it just irritates me... I tried the e-bay
thing... I did both "historical" and "fantasy"
stuff... but I tried my hardest to use really good
quality materials and quality work... but I never got
a bid higher than $10... and then I see something that
is described as a "denim material" going for those
kind of prices... it is frustrating!  I have no
problem with people doing what they want as far as
costuming, I guess I just have a problem with how
people approach their purchases.

Again, I apologize if I offended...

Sarah


--- "Diane M. Mathews" <camelothorse@earthlink.net>
wrote:
> 
> -Poster: "Diane M. Mathews"
> <camelothorse@earthlink.net>
> 
> As a new arrival with the SCA and an ademate lurker,
> I want you to know that
> I got the BEST laugh out of this one and the
> starting comments about the
> garment.  In fact, I did not get irritated until the
> members of the list
> began slamming each other.  Please---let's just
> laugh and have some fun with
> it !  I happen to agree that someone who presents
> themself as an expert and
> gives incorrect information has left themselves open
> for any insuing
> comments and the information about how incorrect the
> dress was might have
> saved a new SCA mamber from purchasing the gown and
> thinking it would be
> appropriate for their time period.   Back to lurking
> !
> 
> Gwinevere
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Kyna Grannd <kynagrannd@granndgarb.com>
> To: <h-costume@indra.com>
> Sent: Friday, October 15, 1999 7:09 AM
> Subject: Re: H-COST: Recent posts
> 
> 
> >
> > -Poster: "Kyna Grannd" <kynagrannd@granndgarb.com>
> >
> >
> >
> > >
> > > -Poster: MzScahlett@aol.com
> > >
> > > In rereading all the well-intentioned comments
> which are in opposition
> to
> > the
> > > others of us on this list having fun at the
> expense of an obviously
> > > ill-informed
> > > E-bay seller, I have to say that I must take
> issue with the presumption
> > that
> > > the seller should be treated with kid gloves. 
> She is offering something
> > for
> > > sale, and is putting forth the item together
> with a representation as to
> > its
> > > authenticity.  This is something about which we
> (the list) have a great
> > deal
> > > of collective knowledge.  It is fair game.  It
> is not the same as
> > attacking
> > > someone who came to this list for advice or
> offering an opinion.  It is
> > also
> > > really hard not to notice that anyone would
> state that any garment was
> > > appropriate to cover a 500-year time period
> under any circumstances.  I
> > think
> > > there is some burden of responsibility for
> accuracy in information
> > incumbent
> > > on anyone who is trying to sell me something and
> who is claiming to know
> > > something about that item.
> > >
> > > I understand that the list should remain as
> pleasant a place as possible
> > to
> > > exchange ideas,  but it [the seller's claim] was
> an amusing statement,
> and
> > > since it was given under the guise of alleged
> knowledge about the
> > suitability
> > > of an item which was for sale, I think its
> examination here totally
> > > appropriate.  I honestly don't think it's worth
> all this much hoo hah.
> > >
> > > It just seems that if we cannot speak critically
> about "Historical
> > Costume"
> > > (and that's just what the seller was claiming to
> be selling) then we
> > should
> > > just up and disband now, folks.   JMHO
> > >
> > > angela
> >
> >
> > Very true Angela, and posts that do speak
> critically but constructfully
> are
> > not what I was referring to. Margo was the only
> one that jumped in as a
> > defense sort of, but I wasn't singling her out,
> hers at least listed
> > something she thought incorrect as did some
> others.  Unfortunately I just
> > cleaned out my email folders about two days ago
> and don't have any of the
> > comments saved. If I remember correctly some were
> along the lines of "can
> > you believe their selling this" and seeming to
> laugh. No constructive
> > criticism in that. It was just a suggestion that
> rather than making a
> > comment which could be construed as laughing at
> the person, or catty and
> not
> > giving a constructive reason why or suggestions as
> to what could have been
> > done, the statement serves no purpose. ::shrugs::
> If something is that bad
> > in someone's eyes that it's below examination and
> constructive comment,
> > perhaps it doesn't need comment at all. Because
> someone reading this list
> > that doesn't know *why* folks are seeming to be I
> can't think of the right
> > word, because cruel is too strong but I think you
> understand what I'm
> > getting at. Comments like "Oh my gawd ::laughs::" 
> might turn of a newer
> > lurking member off, so that we never get to hear
> their questions and
> > observations on *worthy* topics. I certainly
> wasn't suggesting that people
> > not criticize....just that perhaps they should
> consider doing it in a
> > constructive and helpful manner...for the sake of
> others on the list in
> this
> > case, who may have thought there was nothing wrong
> with the scope of dates
> > 1200-1700 for that dress.
> >
> > Last on that subject from me :::chuckles:: *it's*
> not worthy of a huge
> > debate and taking the lists time...I just wanted
> to clarify.
> >
> > ~Kyna
> >


=====

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Date: Fri, 15 Oct 1999 06:17:23 -0700
To: h-costume@indra.com
From: "Carol J. Bell Cannon" <cjcannon@greymists.com>
Subject: Re: H-COST: Recent posts
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-Poster: "Carol J. Bell Cannon" <cjcannon@greymists.com>

At 11:09 PM 10/14/1999 -0700, you wrote:-Poster: Margo Anderson
<margo@directcon.net>
However, I just got this email from the seller:  The dates as stated are
incorrect, it's 1400's to 1700's Elizabethan according to several SCA
members who do that period and to the costume books that I rely on for
pictures.
               It's embarrassing that someone who is a member of the SCA
would give her that range of dates, esp. since the SCA 'period' is
Medieval/Early Renaissance, and thus is not generally considered to extend
much past 1650, although the corpora of the Society was made to flex and
some do extend the dates, preferring to enact the Cavalier period.  It is
exactly this sort of incident that gives many in the scholarly
community/academia the impression that people in the SCA don't bother to
research.  Most of the people with whom I interact in the SCA do research
meticulously for the delight of it, but one example like this one does much
to perpetuate the stereotype of SCA as a place to dress up and party and
not for serious work. It would be useful to have a bibliography of the
costuming books this lady is relying upon for her information.  Perhaps the
lady will now look for other sources.  It will also make me even more
exacting about any information may I give others, so that there will be
little room for such inaccuracies / for possible misinterpretation to creep
in.  Thanks, Margo.   Carol
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Date: Fri, 15 Oct 1999 09:29:54 EDT
Subject:  Re: H-COST: Recent posts VERY LONG
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-Poster: Morses3@aol.com

I've read all the posts concerning this item listed on eBay and I feel like I 
need to delurk and mention a few things....

I am a full time antique dealer and I've been selling on eBay for over a year 
in addition to my other outlets. I have a feedback rating of over 600, so 
I've completed a few transactions and might be able to shed some perspective 
here.

First of all, I absolutely believe that if a person assumes the 
responsibility to sell merchandise to the public, that they also assume the 
responsibility to be an informed seller and present their merchandise 
correctly and with the best information possible.  I have to agree with the 
posts about the information in the listing mentioned that was, politely, 
inaccurate.

I know that many people feel like someone should not be "slammed", perhaps 
because it's a first effort, etc., and that's all fine in the arena of 
presenting something as part of a hobby. Once you cross over the line into 
selling, you assume a different role with different obligations to the people 
to whom you are selling.

To address the point of others selling on eBay and not having their 
merchandise well received, I can only say welcome to the world of selling. I 
often find that when dealing with the public, my own taste concerning 
merchandise is more evolved (if for no other reason than the fact that I'm 
more exposed to the merchandise regularly than they are), and often the best 
things don't get the attention they receive. (I also try to use this to my 
advantage and buy those things when I see them :-)  )  eBay, even more than 
other methods of selling, makes this true. Sometimes, things don't photograph 
well, sometimes the copy isn't written to enhance the item properly, and 
sometimes, everything is great, but the right buyers just aren't there THAT 
MINUTE.  Remember, it's an auction and the dynamic of buying and selling is 
different from it would be in a shop or booth at a show.

I think it's important for everyone to remember not to take this personally 
and let their feeling get hurt. For the seller, they SHOULD be better 
informed if they are in business, which is the position they put themselves 
in when they offered to sell to the public at large. For others selling more 
accurate or "better" merchandise, I say don't give up, maybe you just haven't 
hit the right combination yet (and remember, you have to sell what others 
want to buy, not what you want to sell them). 

Perry
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From: "Leed, Drea" <Drea.Leed@lexis-nexis.com>
To: "'h-costume@indra.com'" <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: H-COST: Stubbes on Jerkins
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-Poster: "Leed, Drea" <Drea.Leed@lexis-nexis.com>


And just to throw another fish into the pot, here's a quote from
Phillip Stubbes (Elizabethan commentator extroardinaire) on the
subject (written in 1583:)

"Their coates and Jerkins, as they be diverse in colors, so be they
diverse in fashions; for some be made with colors, some without, some
close to the bodie, some loose, covering the whole body downe to the
theighe, like baggs or sacks that weare

drawen over them, hidinge the dimensions and proportions of the body:
some are buttened down the brest, some under the arm, and some downe
the back; some with flappes over the brest, some without, some with
great sleeves, some with small, and some with non at all; some pleated
and crested behind, and curiously gathered; some not so; & how many
days so many sortes of apparell some one man will have, and thinketh
it good provision in faire weather to lay up against a storme! "

>Several people have emailed me asking where they can find Janet Arnold's
>discussion of jerkins and doublets.  Look on page 144 of Queen Elizabeth's
>Wardrobe Unlocked.  (yes, I know this is a book on one woman's clothing,
but
>she's discussing men's clothing in relation to the fashion of women wearing
>doublets and jerkins.)

>She discusses doublets, jerkins, and the fact that it is difficult to
>distinguish between the two.   The idea that it is a matter of sleeved vs
>unsleeved is dispelled, however it may have been that a doublet had the
>sleeves sewn in and a jerkin had detachable sleeves.  Just to confuse
>matters even more, there's a reference to a "doublet made jerkinwise".

Drea 


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From: "Kendra Van Cleave" <kendra@tweedlebop.com>
To: <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: H-COST: Re: Quick trip to NYC
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-Poster: "Kendra Van Cleave" <kendra@tweedlebop.com>


Not sure if anyone has replied re: costume museums, so I wanted to recommend
the Costume Institute at the Metropolitan Museum of art
(http://www.costumeinstitute.org/), the Museum of the City of New York
(http://www.mcny.org/) and the museum at the Fashion Institute of Technology
(http://www.fitnyc.suny.edu/happening/6.0.html).

Have fun!

Kendra






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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Fri Oct 15 09:04:19 1999
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Date: Fri, 15 Oct 1999 09:17:06 -0500 (CDT)
To: h-costume@indra.com
Subject: Re: H-COST: Japanese hakama patterns
In-Reply-To: <939972154.26562.599@excite.com>
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-Poster: ches@io.com

I have a theatrical costume book that has a good one that I use. I tweak
it a little but then when don't we. I can put a schetch of it on my
costume site for you tonight to see if it would work. If so I would
recomment the book for you to get. It has no instructions other than how
to enlarge the pattern to whatever size you need it but since I have made
several I am will to help you. However, I highly recommend the folkwear
one, everyone has it for sale on their pattern site, it is 16.00 at the
cheapest so shop around, I have seen too many sites with it at 25.00 not
including shipping!

Email me privately if you want the site that has it at the lower price.

Sincerely,
F. Havas
ches@io.com

On Fri, 15 Oct 1999, maureen+ brown wrote:

> Date: Fri, 15 Oct 1999 00:22:34 PDT
> From: maureen+ brown <edolen@excite.com>
> Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com
> To: h-costume@indra.com
> Subject: H-COST: Japanese hakama patterns
> 
> 
> -Poster: "maureen+ brown" <edolen@excite.com>
> 
> Hi, I'm looking for a hakama pattern;  I've found the Folkwear Pattern,
> Round Earth and Costume Connection ones.  Does anyone know of any others and
> can anyone comment on these patterns?  The Costume Connection one looks
> wrong (no pleats, added belt)..but it's hard to tell in the illustration.
> Thanks!
> 
>      --Maureen
> 
> 

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-Poster: "Vince Lyons" <vjlyons@snip.net>

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MabelHello dear list,
I hope you'll forgive me for filling your mailbox, especially those of =
you who receive the cross-postings!  This message arrived from another =
of my lists, and I hope it might be of interest to you all here, since =
these groups are mostly women (And of course our gentlemen have mothers, =
and perhaps sisters, wives, friends and girlfriends as well. =3D) )

Thanks for reading, and have a wonderful weekend!
Kerrie

Subject: Breast Cancer

Please read and pass on.  It would be wonderful if 1999 were
the year a cure for breast cancer was found!!!!

This is one note I'll gladly pass on.  The notion that we
could raise $16 million by buying a book of stamps  is powerful!

As you may be aware, October is Breast Cancer Awareness Month.
The U.S. Postal Service recently released its "Fund the Cure" stamp to
help fund breast cancer research. The stamp was designed by Ethel =
Kessler
of Bethesda, Maryland.   It is important that we take a stand against =
this disease that kills and maims so many of our mothers, sisters, =
friends.
Instead of the normal $.33 for a stamp, this one costs $.40.  The
additional $.07 will go to breast cancer research. A "normal" book costs
$6.60.  This one is only $8.00.  It takes a few minutes in line at the =
Post
Office and means so much. If all stamps are sold, it will raise an
additional $16,000,000 for this vital research!  Just as important  as =
the
money is our support. What a statement it would make if the stamp =
outsold
the lottery this week. What a statement it would make that we care.

I urge each of you to do two things TODAY:
1. Go out and purchase some of these stamps.
2. E-mail your friends to do the same.

Many of us know women and their families whose lives are
turned upside-down by breast cancer.  It takes so little to do so
much in this drive. Please help!





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<HTML><HEAD><TITLE>Mabel</TITLE>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type><BASE=20
href=3D"file://C:\Program Files\Common Files\Microsoft =
Shared\Stationery\">
<STYLE></STYLE>

<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2614.3500" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY background=3D"">
<DIV align=3Dleft>Hello dear list,</DIV>
<DIV align=3Dleft>I hope you'll forgive me for filling your mailbox, =
especially=20
those of you who receive the cross-postings!&nbsp; This =
message&nbsp;arrived=20
from another of my lists, and I&nbsp;hope it might be of interest to you =
all=20
here, since these groups are mostly women (And of course our gentlemen =
have=20
mothers,&nbsp;and perhaps sisters, wives, friends and girlfriends as =
well. =3D)=20
)</DIV>
<DIV align=3Dleft>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV align=3Dleft>Thanks for reading, and have a wonderful =
weekend!</DIV>
<DIV align=3Dleft>Kerrie</DIV>
<DIV align=3Dleft><BR>Subject: Breast Cancer</DIV>
<DIV><BR>Please read and pass on.&nbsp; It would be wonderful if 1999=20
were<BR>the year a cure for breast cancer was found!!!!</DIV>
<DIV><BR>This is one note I'll gladly pass on.&nbsp; The notion that =
we<BR>could=20
raise $16 million by buying a book of stamps&nbsp; is powerful!</DIV>
<DIV><BR>As you may be aware, October is Breast Cancer Awareness =
Month.<BR>The=20
U.S. Postal Service recently released its "Fund the Cure" stamp =
to<BR>help fund=20
breast cancer research. The stamp was designed by Ethel Kessler<BR>of =
Bethesda,=20
Maryland.&nbsp;&nbsp; It is important that we take a stand against this =
disease=20
that kills and maims so many of our mothers, sisters, =
friends.<BR>Instead of the=20
normal $.33 for a stamp, this one costs $.40.&nbsp; The<BR>additional =
$.07 will=20
go to breast cancer research. A "normal" book costs<BR>$6.60.&nbsp; This =
one is=20
only $8.00.&nbsp; It takes a few minutes in line at the Post<BR>Office =
and means=20
so much. If all stamps are sold, it will raise an<BR>additional =
$16,000,000 for=20
this vital research!&nbsp; Just as important&nbsp; as the<BR>money is =
our=20
support. What a statement it would make if the stamp outsold<BR>the =
lottery this=20
week. What a statement it would make that we care.<BR><BR>I urge each of =
you to=20
do two things TODAY:<BR>1. Go out and purchase some of these =
stamps.<BR>2.=20
E-mail your friends to do the same.</DIV>
<DIV><BR>Many of us know women and their families whose lives =
are<BR>turned=20
upside-down by breast cancer.&nbsp; It takes so little to do so<BR>much =
in this=20
drive. Please help!<BR><BR></DIV>
<P></P>
<CENTER>&nbsp;</CENTER></BODY></HTML>

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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Fri Oct 15 09:14:31 1999
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From: "RSewellBrown" <rsewellbrown@computerlink.com>
To: <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: H-COST: recent posts
Date: Fri, 15 Oct 1999 07:34:53 -0700
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-Poster: "RSewellBrown" <rsewellbrown@computerlink.com>

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----- Original Message -----=20
To: MzScahlett@aol.com=20


Well said!  It is not a crime,yet, to be well educated and to poke a =
little mild fun at someone who professes to be and obviously isn't.

Thanks for your courageously un-p.c. reply.  We have not all been =
assimilated yet!

Rebecca

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<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message -----=20
<DIV><B>To:</B> <A href=3D"mailto:MzScahlett@aol.com"=20
title=3DMzScahlett@aol.com>MzScahlett@aol.com</A> </DIV></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Well said!&nbsp; It is not a crime,yet,&nbsp;to be =
well=20
educated and to poke a little mild fun at someone who professes to be =
and=20
obviously isn't.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Thanks for your courageously un-p.c. reply.&nbsp; We have not all =
been=20
assimilated yet!</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Rebecca</DIV></BODY></HTML>

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From: "Vince Lyons" <vjlyons@snip.net>
To: <h-costume@indra.com>
Cc: <vintage@indra.com>
Subject: H-COST: Breast Cancer Fundraiser (OT)
Date: Fri, 15 Oct 1999 10:37:45 -0400
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-Poster: "Vince Lyons" <vjlyons@snip.net>

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Mabel

Hello dear list,
I hope you'll forgive me for filling your mailbox, especially those of =
you who receive the cross-postings!  This message arrived from another =
of my lists, and I hope it might be of interest to you all here, since =
these groups are mostly women (And of course our gentlemen have mothers, =
and perhaps sisters, wives, friends and girlfriends as well. =3D) )

Thanks for reading, and have a wonderful weekend!
Kerrie

Subject: Breast Cancer

Please read and pass on.  It would be wonderful if 1999 were
the year a cure for breast cancer was found!!!!

This is one note I'll gladly pass on.  The notion that we
could raise $16 million by buying a book of stamps  is powerful!

As you may be aware, October is Breast Cancer Awareness Month.
The U.S. Postal Service recently released its "Fund the Cure" stamp to
help fund breast cancer research. The stamp was designed by Ethel =
Kessler
of Bethesda, Maryland.   It is important that we take a stand against =
this disease that kills and maims so many of our mothers, sisters, =
friends.
Instead of the normal $.33 for a stamp, this one costs $.40.  The
additional $.07 will go to breast cancer research. A "normal" book costs
$6.60.  This one is only $8.00.  It takes a few minutes in line at the =
Post
Office and means so much. If all stamps are sold, it will raise an
additional $16,000,000 for this vital research!  Just as important  as =
the
money is our support. What a statement it would make if the stamp =
outsold
the lottery this week. What a statement it would make that we care.

I urge each of you to do two things TODAY:
1. Go out and purchase some of these stamps.
2. E-mail your friends to do the same.

Many of us know women and their families whose lives are
turned upside-down by breast cancer.  It takes so little to do so
much in this drive. Please help!







------=_NextPart_000_006B_01BF16F9.51265E40
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD><TITLE>Mabel</TITLE>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type><BASE=20
href=3D"file://C:\Program Files\Common Files\Microsoft =
Shared\Stationery\">
<STYLE></STYLE>

<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2614.3500" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY background=3D"">
<CENTER>&nbsp;</CENTER>
<P></P>
<DIV>
<DIV align=3Dleft>Hello dear list,</DIV>
<DIV align=3Dleft>I hope you'll forgive me for filling your mailbox, =
especially=20
those of you who receive the cross-postings!&nbsp; This =
message&nbsp;arrived=20
from another of my lists, and I&nbsp;hope it might be of interest to you =
all=20
here, since these groups are mostly women (And of course our gentlemen =
have=20
mothers,&nbsp;and perhaps sisters, wives, friends and girlfriends as =
well. =3D)=20
)</DIV>
<DIV align=3Dleft>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV align=3Dleft>Thanks for reading, and have a wonderful =
weekend!</DIV>
<DIV align=3Dleft>Kerrie</DIV>
<DIV align=3Dleft><BR>Subject: Breast Cancer</DIV>
<DIV><BR>Please read and pass on.&nbsp; It would be wonderful if 1999=20
were<BR>the year a cure for breast cancer was found!!!!</DIV>
<DIV><BR>This is one note I'll gladly pass on.&nbsp; The notion that =
we<BR>could=20
raise $16 million by buying a book of stamps&nbsp; is powerful!</DIV>
<DIV><BR>As you may be aware, October is Breast Cancer Awareness =
Month.<BR>The=20
U.S. Postal Service recently released its "Fund the Cure" stamp =
to<BR>help fund=20
breast cancer research. The stamp was designed by Ethel Kessler<BR>of =
Bethesda,=20
Maryland.&nbsp;&nbsp; It is important that we take a stand against this =
disease=20
that kills and maims so many of our mothers, sisters, =
friends.<BR>Instead of the=20
normal $.33 for a stamp, this one costs $.40.&nbsp; The<BR>additional =
$.07 will=20
go to breast cancer research. A "normal" book costs<BR>$6.60.&nbsp; This =
one is=20
only $8.00.&nbsp; It takes a few minutes in line at the Post<BR>Office =
and means=20
so much. If all stamps are sold, it will raise an<BR>additional =
$16,000,000 for=20
this vital research!&nbsp; Just as important&nbsp; as the<BR>money is =
our=20
support. What a statement it would make if the stamp outsold<BR>the =
lottery this=20
week. What a statement it would make that we care.<BR><BR>I urge each of =
you to=20
do two things TODAY:<BR>1. Go out and purchase some of these =
stamps.<BR>2.=20
E-mail your friends to do the same.</DIV>
<DIV><BR>Many of us know women and their families whose lives =
are<BR>turned=20
upside-down by breast cancer.&nbsp; It takes so little to do so<BR>much =
in this=20
drive. Please help!<BR><BR></DIV>
<P></P>
<CENTER>&nbsp;</CENTER></DIV>
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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Fri Oct 15 09:35:58 1999
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-Poster: " Firefly" <fire.fly@hotbot.com>

I would like to support Kyna that the topic had got out of hand.  It really is not polite to talk about a person's actions in a forum where they do not have a chance to see the critique or respond directly.  Regardless of technical expertise or even being right, it is hurtful.  

Then again, there is a really tough line to draw from when discussion is constructive (like sharing critiques of patterns) and hurtful.  Sometimes I don't know myself when I go over the line...

For instance, if I were a pattern drafter, I would be especially upset if I read when someone wrote a bad review my pattern--I wouldn't know if this person were out of their technical depth or if he/she just plain didn't follow instructions. I know of another email list that has descended into petty squabbles over historical accuracy.  For some folk, I geuss this is a compelling debate.  For me, it was like having a contentious argument intrude on in my life a couple times a day.  I got weary and unsubscribed.

Some of my most embarassing moments have come from making stupid assertions unknowingly to genuine experts.  The experts who got me as their true disciples were the ones who corrected me gently and kept my ignorance in confidence. I really don't like making stupid mistakes and I'd really rather minimize the times I've made them.

Anyhow, I think this really isn't a contentous listserve.  Generally, we only talk about ourselves.  I'm staying subscribed, guys and gals!

Also, one other point.  I'm not an SCA'er, but one of the things I have respected most about that organization is the "A" in "SCA"--anachronism.  From the very start, it seems that SCA has had a understanding of the intrinsinctly anachronistic side of reenacting.  Within this there are various ranges of accuracy and assumptions--but they are all anachronisms.

We don't live in (and events aren't occuring in) a past time, so at best, reenacting can only be an impression--not a recreation of a past time.  I think this is truly to SCA's credit--sadly, an element that frequently is ignored in other reenacting activities.  It really gets disturbing when people bring contentious modern concerns out and use reenacting as a forum for advocacy.  Well, that is another topic for discussion...

Over and out,
Mary 
---
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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Fri Oct 15 09:42:10 1999
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-Poster: Janice Dallas <janicedals@mediaone.net>

I used the Folkwear Pattern for a Production of "The Mikado".  It isn't
really a "pattern", but a set of instructions on how to draft it for
various sizes.  My husband reduced it to a formula so we could just put
the body measurements into the computer and it came up with the correct
distances between points for each person.  Since they varied from waist
24" to 63" and there were about 20 pants to make, this was helpful. 
Instructions were simple enough for my "mixed bag" of volunteer sewers. 
-- 
Janice Dallas
JaniceDals@MediaOne.net
"Just so, the girl has beauty, virtue, wit..."
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Date: Fri, 15 Oct 1999 10:17:09 -0500 (CDT)
From: Robin Netherton <robin@shell.nightowl.net>
To: h-costume@indra.com
Subject: Re: H-COST: Recent posts
In-Reply-To: <199910150609.XAA20663@apollo.directcon.net>
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-Poster: Robin Netherton <robin@shell.nightowl.net>


This whole discussion got me curious to finally look up this thing to see
just what was being offered for sale, and how it was represented. I don't
need to repeat the other opinions on the list -- I think most of us can
see the errors. But the statement the lady gave Margo was enlightening:

> >The dates as stated are incorrect, it's 1400's to 1700's Elizabethan
> >according to several SCA members who do that period and to the costume books
> >that I rely on for pictures.

I wouldn't be too harsh on the SCA for this one, at least not without
further detail.  (I don't think there are many in the SCA who would refer
to "1400s Elizabethan.")  But I can envision a scenario that would explain
this unawareness, because I've seen similar things before. Imagine this:

Someone is planning on going to a costumed event -- a wedding, maybe --
but knows next-to-nothing about medieval/renaissance costume, and she
can't sew at all. For help, she calls on a friend who does sew.  The
friend does mostly modern stuff; maybe she's done a little theater or
opera costume -- 18th and 19th century.  Hmm, this can't be hard, says the
friend, and flips open a few of the books she has on hand, which have
maybe three or four drawings of "generic medieval" or "generic
Elizabethan" and a paragraph of description. She brings to the task her
own incomplete knowledge of "historic costume" and the needs of people who
wear costume for parties and/or performances: maybe you want to use hoops,
maybe not, make the bodice reversible so you can change the look, etc. She
makes the dress...

...and the client moves away before it's done, or changes her mind and
doesn't pay, or the wedding is called off, or something.

So she decides to sell it off on ebay. But how to write it up? She shows
the costume to some friends who have done SCA and/or Faire. They are
polite. One of them says, "Well, this part looks Elizabethan." Another one
says, "They were wearing tie-on sleeves as early as the 1400s."  Another
says, "Be sure you cover the hair, no woman at this time would get caught
dead with her hair showing." Comments like these, with no context or
background, combine with the paragraph or two in her generic books to
create a rather garbled image of what people in "that early time" wore.

Once she sells this, she probably will never do another
medieval/renaissance job again. (Or, worse, she'll decide that now that
she's done one, she can go market her skills to all those people with
ready money in the SCA...) 

In my experience, a lot of people graduate from school with a collapsed
view of early modern history -- "medieval" and "Elizabethan" are not
distinct terms, and it's all jumbled up with the feudal system and knights
in shining armor and Shakespeare. Fantasy art and the generic Hollywood
images that mix up hundreds of years' worth of styles feed that
misunderstanding. 

My guess is that the people who are bidding on this clothing are also have
that collapsed view, and they recognize that wench-dress image as generic
medieval/renaissance. Lots of people have a use for this -- maybe they
want to sell their pottery at Faires and need something to wear, or they
want a fantasy costume for a con, or they do storytelling programs for
children, or whatever. Unfortunately, historical knowledge (or historical
costume knowledge) isn't as common among the public as it is on this list.

--Robin


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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Fri Oct 15 10:19:45 1999
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From: Carrie Veenstra <carrie@greateralchemy.net>
To: "'h-costume@indra.com'" <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: H-COST: H-Costume: Ebay Sellers (longish)
Date: Fri, 15 Oct 1999 10:27:23 -0500
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-Poster: Carrie Veenstra <carrie@greateralchemy.net>


I have to admit that I am one of those less experienced costumers 
getting bummed out by the recent snarkfest, until (as usually happens)
the discussion swung back to more gracious ground.  I do want to hear what 
should be different about any given item (some of which we have heard 
already), but there is definately a qualitative difference between 
constructive criticism and snarking.

I am, however, a slightly experienced ebay seller (not costumes, but handmade), buyer, 
general collector of sales trends & techniques.  

For  Sarah -- I don't know how many times or when you attempted selling 
your garments on Ebay, but recently I've seen many *better* quality elizabethan 
& tudor garments sell in what I think is a reasonable price range.  There is 
currently quite a range of quality/accuracy in costume and clothing being offered, 
and keywords are sometimes a little hard to sift through to find what a buyer 
is looking for.  ('Renaissance' + 'costume'/'clothing'/'garb' will bring up 
everything from gunne sax & prom dresses to the high end 'will build for 
you'  custom stuff)  I would suggest using as many (applicable, of course) 
keywords in the first few sentences of your description) including Handmade, 
handsewn, clothing, costume, garb, historical, etc.   Give garment measurments 
as well as approximate 'off-the-rack' size.  Also, quality pictures are 
SO important, accurate color especially. showing details on a garment is even 
better! Describe the fabric. Some catagories have regular shoppers that reject 
anything posted with a reserve price -- costuming does not seem to suffer from this. 
So you can set your reserve reasonably, set your starting bid high enough 
to denote that you're selling handmade goods (if I saw off the first listing 
"Renaissance dress"  with a bid or starting bid of $10, I would assume that it 
was off-the-rack goth garb and not even look)  

In general:
If you can, post more items before the last round of your auctions expire.   This 
allows people to check 'other auctions by seller'  from the auction page, and they 
may see something that didn't come up in their search.
Be willing to take lower amounts if you don't have a feedback rating yet, 
and be patient.  Once the 'regulars'   find you, they will check for auctions 
by your username.  Your feedback rating is like gold -- treasure it and nurture 
it..  I will NOT buy from anyone with recent or abundant negative feedback.  I *do*  
read what feedback has been left-- positive feedback that says "exactly as 
advertised"  is lukewarm.. I am usually double critical of the descriptions of those 
sellers.


I would love to see more quality historical items for sale -- I have limited time to 
sew, and less time to research at the moment. Still gotta wear something, though.

BTW, has anyone considered leaving neutral feedback comments on the seller & 
item in question? something like " no clothing ensemble is accurate for all of a 500 
year span. "

then bidders are warned, if they bother to check feedback

Carrie
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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Fri Oct 15 10:31:14 1999
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From: "Erica D. Pence" <erica@robesofantiquity.com>
To: <h-costume@indra.com>
References: <0.5fa7a417.253823f0@aol.com> <002b01bf1706$10f50940$cb860318@avnl1.nj.home.com>
Subject: Re: H-COST: Recent posts
Date: Fri, 15 Oct 1999 11:43:43 -0400
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-Poster: "Erica D. Pence" <erica@robesofantiquity.com>

I just wanted to point out that most of us showing objection to some rude or
rash remarks made about an inaccurate garment and its mistaken description
on Ebay, were not saying "do not criticize".  I fully agree that all the
inaccuracies should be pointed out so others may learn.  My point was be
constructive and polite.  Once again, you are speaking to 350 people you do
not know.  Choose a more politically correct way of wording what bothers you
about an inaccurate garment.  Those that do not know better will be thankful
to learn why the garment is wrong, but many will be offended when you attack
the ill-informed dressmaker rather than the dress.

Just a couple more of my cents.

Erica D. Pence
Robes of Antiquity
www.robesofantiquity.com
Warning!  This site is still under construction.  Online store coming soon!

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References: <0.5fa7a417.253823f0@aol.com> <002b01bf1706$10f50940$cb860318@avnl1.nj.home.com> <017801bf170e$b173cac0$6c6b1f26@camelot>
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-Poster: Stephen Fairman <fairmans@teleport.com>



"Diane M. Mathews" wrote:

> -Poster: "Diane M. Mathews" <camelothorse@earthlink.net>
>
> As a new arrival with the SCA and an ademate lurker, I want you to know that
> I got the BEST laugh out of this one and the starting comments about the
> garment.  In fact, I did not get irritated until the members of the list
> began slamming each other.  Please---let's just laugh and have some fun with
> it !  I happen to agree that someone who presents themself as an expert and
> gives incorrect information has left themselves open for any insuing
> comments and the information about how incorrect the dress was might have
> saved a new SCA mamber from purchasing the gown and thinking it would be
> appropriate for their time period.   Back to lurking !
>
> Gwinevere
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Kyna Grannd <kynagrannd@granndgarb.com>
> To: <h-costume@indra.com>
> Sent: Friday, October 15, 1999 7:09 AM
> Subject: Re: H-COST: Recent posts
>
>
> > > It just seems that if we cannot speak critically about "Historical
> > Costume"
> > > (and that's just what the seller was claiming to be selling) then we
> > should
> > > just up and disband now, folks.   JMHO
> > >
> > > angela
> >
> >
> > Very true Angela, and posts that do speak critically but constructfully
> are
> > not what I was referring to. Margo was the only one that jumped in as a
> > defense sort of, but I wasn't singling her out, hers at least listed
> > something she thought incorrect as did some others.  Unfortunately I just
> > cleaned out my email folders about two days ago and don't have any of the
> > comments saved. If I remember correctly some were along the lines of "can
> > you believe their selling this" and seeming to laugh. No constructive
> > criticism in that. It was just a suggestion that rather than making a
> > comment which could be construed as laughing at the person, or catty and
> not
> > giving a constructive reason why or suggestions as to what could have been
> > done, the statement serves no purpose. ::shrugs:: If something is that bad
> > in someone's eyes that it's below examination and constructive comment,
> > perhaps it doesn't need comment at all. Because someone reading this list
> > that doesn't know *why* folks are seeming to be I can't think of the right
> > word, because cruel is too strong but I think you understand what I'm
> > getting at. Comments like "Oh my gawd ::laughs::"  might turn of a newer
> > lurking member off, so that we never get to hear their questions and
> > observations on *worthy* topics. I certainly wasn't suggesting that people
> > not criticize....just that perhaps they should consider doing it in a
> > constructive and helpful manner...for the sake of others on the list in
> this
> > case, who may have thought there was nothing wrong with the scope of dates
> > 1200-1700 for that dress.
> >
> > Last on that subject from me :::chuckles:: *it's* not worthy of a huge
> > debate and taking the lists time...I just wanted to clarify.
> >
> > ~Kyna
> >

 Just my 2 cents worth:  I appreciated the comments.  As a renaissance clothing
seller, I get upset at the people who are selling clothing without adequate
documentation.  If you go to the trouble to sell on ebay, you are attempting to
be a professional.  If so, you have to accurate.  Too many people get misled and
spend a great deal of time and money on making or buying something that is not
accurate.  Since the reserve on the auction has not been met yet, the seller is
attempting to sell at a professional price and should be accurate as to the
source and documentation.  If not, she should be met with critical comment from
those of us who take the time and effort to be accurate.

Yours
Esteban McLachan
Shadow's Treasure Chest
http://www.cyberis.net/~fairman1

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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Fri Oct 15 10:33:12 1999
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Date: Fri, 15 Oct 1999 08:47:44 -0700
From: Merouda the True of Beaumaris <keltia@serv.net>
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-Poster: Merouda the True of Beaumaris <keltia@serv.net>

> > McCalls has a pattern that I have never seen before
> > http://www.nampa.net/lucretia/9-10pattern9427.jpg

Well I would make the underdress white, the overdresses colored.  I would make the
bodice tighter.  I would make the sleeves of the overdress tighter and the sleeves
of the underdress fuller and make sure to pull them out of the gaps in the over
sleeves.  I would never in a million zillion years use either headdress.  It looks
to me as though in the teeny picture at the botton of the blue chemise that the
model is wearing a narrow padded headroll.  This would be more appropriate than
either of the other head dresses.

Actually as someone else said, I wouldn't make this one but would turn around and
go to the nearest Joann's and buy the Simplicity Italian.

FWIW,  Cynthia
--
Cynthia Long
Merouda the True of Beaumaris
Barony of Madrone
Kingdom of An Tir


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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Fri Oct 15 10:50:10 1999
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From: Gina Torretta <gtorretta@cid.wustl.edu>
To: "'Historic Costuming'" <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: H-COST: movie "inspirations"
Date: Fri, 15 Oct 1999 11:07:40 -0500
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-Poster: Gina Torretta <gtorretta@cid.wustl.edu>

Could I beg the list's indulgence for a brief period and ask of everyone
their favorite
"authentic-period" movies where the costumer really did earn their academy
award
or nomination?
	I've been following the career of Gabriella Pescucci, Deborah Scott
and
Sandy Powell.

-gina
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From: "Genevieve de Courtanvaux" <gdc@airmail.net>
To: <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: H-COST: Recent posts
Date: Fri, 15 Oct 1999 10:54:10 -0500
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-Poster: "Genevieve de Courtanvaux" <gdc@airmail.net>

Ok, I have to correct all of you on a statement that most have been making
from this person's e-bay clothing. Some of you have ranted about the twill
fabric it was made from. Well, not that I would choose that type of fabric
to make something but a twill weave goes farther back than the 1200-1700 the
maker of the clothing stated it was from. The European decent mummies that
were found in a Chinese desert had a fabric that was of a twill weave. The
textile expert that was called in on this job likened to jeans.....saying
that it was the same weave as our jeans today.
Carol Ross

and then I see something that
>is described as a "denim material" going for those
>kind of prices... it is frustrating!

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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Fri Oct 15 11:06:42 1999
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Date: Fri, 15 Oct 1999 11:27:46 -0500 (CDT)
From: Robin Netherton <robin@shell.nightowl.net>
To: "H-Costume (E-mail)" <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: H-COST: Pourpoints & Houppelands
In-Reply-To: <000b01bf168f$87ff8eb0$6b037a86@phoenix.com>
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-Poster: Robin Netherton <robin@shell.nightowl.net>


On Thu, 14 Oct 1999, Cynthia Barnes wrote:

> Robin, and any of the other ladies & gents on the Pourpoint thread,
> There's an illumination on the inside front cover of "Parades et Parures",
> (Boccacio, "De Cleres at Nobles Femmes", circa 1402, BNF Paris). Wish I
> could find it online, but the BNF is not responding right now. Here's a
> verbal description:
...

Without a picture I couldn't begin to make a guess on the specifics. But
a few stabs regarding your questions:

> Is his pink & black garment truly a houppeland even in this different cut?
> Is it a haincelin?

What's a haincelin? :-) I don't remember hearing that term before. 
Seriously, terminology at the time wasn't standard, so anything we say
today can only be arbitrary. I only worry about terms when I'm reading a
source document and need to figure out what they're referring to, and that
can vary by time and place and language/dialect. Today we have a few terms
that most people will agree on, but even then there's a lot of variation. 
If you think it's a houppeland, I'm sure someone will agree with you, and
someone else won't, and it doesn't really matter. In order to talk about
something, we simply need to make a habit of establishing our definitions
every time. 

> Are the sleeves still cut in the same "grandes assiette manner"? If so, how
> does it turn into a bag?
> Is his dagging applied as trim, set into a seam I cant see or artistic
> license?

No idea without seeing the picture, but I found that once I figured out
how to make a certain form of open sleeve (the cut is not immediately
apparent), then converting it into a bag required only one more seam. I've
seen dagging running along the outer lower edge of a bag sleeve before;
that's where the seam is, so I presume that sort of dagging is set into
the seam. Sometimes you see hanging bells or fringe on that same line.
I've also seen dagging or other decorations along the line of an armhole,
so again I figure it's set into a seam. 

I would use the term "grande assiette" to refer to an armhole that's
deeply cut into the body at the back in a large circular shape. Is that
what you're seeing?  I suppose there's no reason you couldn't use that
armhole with a bag sleeve, though I'd have to see an example to get a
sense of how it might be cut. 

If you do find this image online, or in another book, let me know. This is
the kind of illustration you sometimes see in the Medieval Woman series,
but it didn't come to hand in the few items I just flipped through. 

--Robin

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From: "Design" <design@alincocostumes.com>
To: <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: RE: H-COST: movie "inspirations"
Date: Fri, 15 Oct 1999 11:30:42 -0600
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-Poster: "Design" <design@alincocostumes.com>

Cyrano de Bergerac, the French version with Gerard Depardieu.

Kevin

> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-h-costume@indra.com [mailto:owner-h-costume@indra.com]On
> Behalf Of Gina Torretta
> Sent: Friday, October 15, 1999 10:08 AM
> To: 'Historic Costuming'
> Subject: H-COST: movie "inspirations"
>
>
>
> -Poster: Gina Torretta <gtorretta@cid.wustl.edu>
>
> Could I beg the list's indulgence for a brief period and ask of everyone
> their favorite
> "authentic-period" movies where the costumer really did earn their academy
> award
> or nomination?
> 	I've been following the career of Gabriella Pescucci, Deborah Scott
> and
> Sandy Powell.
>
> -gina
>
>

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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Fri Oct 15 11:32:32 1999
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Date: Fri, 15 Oct 1999 09:46:28 -0700
From: Merouda the True of Beaumaris <keltia@serv.net>
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-Poster: Merouda the True of Beaumaris <keltia@serv.net>

> Could I beg the list's indulgence for a brief period and ask of everyone
> their favorite
> "authentic-period" movies where the costumer really did earn their academy
> award or nomination?

First I'll state that I don't believe it would be possible for a costumer to
make entirely period and authentic costumes for any movie, mainly due to time
and money constraints, but I think some try harder than others.  My personal
favorite costume designer for period films is Sandy Powell.  I think I like her
best because she obviously has a background in historical costuming and she
uses it.  I love that she lavishly embroiders many of the costumes.  And the
actors always look good in what she does.  Her choice of fabrics is exquisite
and I think she has great taste and style.

Cynthia
--
Cynthia Long
Merouda the True of Beaumaris
Barony of Madrone
Kingdom of An Tir


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Subject: Re: H-COST: movie "inspirations"
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-Poster: MzScahlett@aol.com

In a message dated 10/15/1999 9:47:15 AM Pacific Daylight Time, 
keltia@serv.net writes:

<< First I'll state that I don't believe it would be possible for a costumer 
to
 make entirely period and authentic costumes for any movie, mainly due to time
 and money constraints, but I think some try harder than others.  >>

Cynthia, I find your statement intriguing.  I believe I disagree, but am 
unclear as to what you mean by "entirely period"... if you mean down to 
underwear and fastenings that might never be seen, then certainly it is rare, 
but *never* ?? Just curious as to what your meaning was.

I would point you to "Angels & Insects" which I believe has some of the best 
period clothing I've ever seen, as well as a magnificent sense of design & 
use of color for cinema.

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-Poster: AlbertCat@aol.com

Cyrano de Bergerac.....costumes by Franca Squarciapino
Perfection!
Also, let's not forget Jenny Beavan & John Bright of Merchant/ Ivory fame!
Also capable of perfection is Piero Tosi but the only films of his I know are 
La Traviata & Death in Venice.
Then there's Danilo Donati, who does the Zeffirelli Shakespeare films & 
Fellini's Satyracon, which may be the most convincing Ancient Rome I've 
seen....though I know it's not actually accurate.
Barry Lyndon is perfection too....that's Milena Cananero [with Ulla-Britt 
Søderlund] . I worked with an assistant of hers, on a TV miniseries. Milena 
kept calling the shop to try to get him to do a show with her. He would roll 
his eyes and exclaim: "She's a nut! I won't do it!" Well...the results of her 
nuttiness are magnificent! [She also did Chariots of Fire]

....to mention a few of my faves!
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From: "LDMundy" <dave@wysewords.softnet.co.uk>
To: <h-costume@indra.com>
References: <006e01bf171a$d93b6480$80f4fea9@ouppc>
Subject: Re: H-COST: Breast Cancer Fundraiser (OT)
Date: Fri, 15 Oct 1999 18:04:04 +0100
Organization: Heritage Matters at Wysewords
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-Poster: "LDMundy" <dave@wysewords.softnet.co.uk>

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_001A_01BF1737.AAF3FCA0
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MabelI just had to delurk to correct an false impression that you may =
have inadvertently strengthened.
Breast cancer is not confined to the female of the species, usually yes =
but not solely.
LDM
   ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: Vince Lyons=20
   Hello dear list,
  I hope you'll forgive me for filling your mailbox, especially those of =
you who receive the cross-postings!  This message arrived from another =
of my lists, and I hope it might be of interest to you all here, since =
these groups are mostly women (And of course our gentlemen have mothers, =
and perhaps sisters, wives, friends and girlfriends as well. =3D) )

  Thanks for reading, and have a wonderful weekend!
  Kerrie

  =20

------=_NextPart_000_001A_01BF1737.AAF3FCA0
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD><TITLE>Mabel</TITLE>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type><BASE=20
href=3D"file://C:\Program Files\Common Files\Microsoft =
Shared\Stationery\">
<STYLE></STYLE>

<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2614.3500" name=3DGENERATOR>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2314.1000" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY background=3D"" bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I just had to delurk to correct an =
false impression=20
that you may have inadvertently strengthened.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Breast cancer is not confined to the =
female of the=20
species, usually yes but not solely.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>LDM</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: =
0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">&nbsp;----- Original Message ----- =
</DIV>
  <DIV=20
  style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
  <A href=3D"mailto:vjlyons@snip.net" title=3Dvjlyons@snip.net>Vince =
Lyons</A>=20
</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B></B></DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><STRONG>&nbsp;</STRONG>Hello dear =
list,</DIV>
  <DIV>
  <DIV align=3Dleft>I hope you'll forgive me for filling your mailbox, =
especially=20
  those of you who receive the cross-postings!&nbsp; This =
message&nbsp;arrived=20
  from another of my lists, and I&nbsp;hope it might be of interest to =
you all=20
  here, since these groups are mostly women (And of course our gentlemen =
have=20
  mothers,&nbsp;and perhaps sisters, wives, friends and girlfriends as =
well. =3D)=20
  )</DIV>
  <DIV align=3Dleft>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV align=3Dleft>Thanks for reading, and have a wonderful =
weekend!</DIV>
  <DIV align=3Dleft>Kerrie</DIV>
  <DIV align=3Dleft><BR> </DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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-Poster: AlbertCat@aol.com

In a message dated 10/15/1999 12:49:39 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
keltia@serv.net writes:

<< First I'll state that I don't believe it would be possible for a costumer 
to
 make entirely period and authentic costumes for any movie, mainly due to time
 and money constraints, but I think some try harder than others. >>


Check out the 2 part Little Doritt....with Derek Jacobe & Alec Guiness. All 
the clothes were actually made by hand. It took 2 years.
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-Poster: AlbertCat@aol.com

In a message dated 10/15/1999 12:49:39 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
keltia@serv.net writes:

<< My personal
 favorite costume designer for period films is Sandy Powell. >>

As you all know I love to remind everyone....I worked with her on Interview 
with the Vampire. She is lovely & charming and part of her success is she 
loves input from her assistants and cutters. She likes an accurate cut but 
will be liberal with fabric choices. She also loves dangerous color schemes. 
...which she works to perfection. I'm so glad she won an Oscar....'bout time!
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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Fri Oct 15 12:06:56 1999
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From: "Ginnaphure Jayne Fayrebanke" <ginnaphure@email.women.com>
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-Poster: "Ginnaphure Jayne Fayrebanke" <ginnaphure@email.women.com>

I'm partial to the costumes in Resurection I think it's called, it's been so long since I've seen it. It had meg ryan and robert downey Jr. in it. I think it won a costuming award but I"m not sure.

---
Ever Yours,
Ginnaphure

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
ICQ# 41340093
AIM: Ginnaphure

ask of everyone
>their favorite
>"authentic-period" movies where the costumer really did earn their academy
>award
>or nomination?


Get free e-mail with a women.com membership at http://women.com
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Date: Fri, 15 Oct 1999 10:20:56 -0700
From: Merouda the True of Beaumaris <keltia@serv.net>
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-Poster: Merouda the True of Beaumaris <keltia@serv.net>

> Cynthia, I find your statement intriguing.  I believe I disagree, but am
> unclear as to what you mean by "entirely period"... if you mean down to
> underwear and fastenings that might never be seen, then certainly it is rare,
> but *never* ?? Just curious as to what your meaning was.

I mean every single detail.  Head to toe.  Websters:  "Entire, Having no part left
out, being without limitation or reservation, complete, intact".  And I do mean
accurate.  Given time and money, they could probably do it.  Would they?  I doubt
it.  Should they?  Personal opinion.  Truly it would then depend on the era
wouldn't it?  Pre-1550 it would be close to impossible for anyone, for any reason,
to create a fully accurate ensemble since we don't know everything about every
item of  clothing earlier than that.  Right?

 I realize that the one thing I left out was the title of my favorite period
costume movie.  Hmmmm.  That's a really really tough question.  I *love*
_Interview with a Vampire_ for the men's clothing, accurate or not.  For women's
clothing, I liked _Robin Hood_, the one with Patrick Bergen and Uma Thurman,
accurate or not.

Cynthia
--
Cynthia Long
Merouda the True of Beaumaris
Barony of Madrone
Kingdom of An Tir


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Subject: Re: H-COST: Pourpoints & Houppelands
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-Poster: marc-carlson@utulsa.edu


<Robin Netherton <robin@shell.nightowl.net>>
> What's a haincelin? :-) I don't remember hearing that 
>term before.

Personally, I don't have a clue.

> Seriously, terminology at the time wasn't standard, so 
>anything we say today can only be arbitrary...

Unfortunately, while this is true enough, I'm not 
certain that it isn't overstating the issue far enough 
that it makes it somewhat pointless to try and even 
asume we know what we are talking about.

I agree though that we do need to be careful to define 
what we are talking about.

Marc
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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Fri Oct 15 12:22:18 1999
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From: Robin Netherton <robin@shell.nightowl.net>
To: h-costume@indra.com
Subject: Re: H-COST: movie "inspirations"
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-Poster: Robin Netherton <robin@shell.nightowl.net>


Maybe not perfect, but I recall that the clothing in Robin & Marian had
the right "hang" to it, and nice little details that many costumers miss.
I haven't seen the movie since the early 1980s, though, so maybe my
standards would be higher now. 

The designer for that -- Yvonne or Yvette something? I forget -- also did
Nicholas & Alexandra, which had a sumptuous look. That period is out of my
specialty area, so I have no idea if it was accurate at all. 

I'm also remembering the clothing in Dragonslayer, a middlin'-quality
fantasy movie that actually had some good early-medieval costumes, with
things like hand-stitching on collars that you could see in closeups.
Again, my judgment might be different if I saw it today -- it's been maybe
20 years.  With fantasy, I suppose designers have a lot of leeway, but
it's nice to see them do something that has some grounding in reality.

I've noticed that the leading lady or the ingenue often is not dressed as
authentically as the other characters. The usual reason cited is that
the leading lady can insist on clothes that are sexy/attractive by modern
standards, which usually means a different silhouette, colors, fabrics,
cleavage, hairdo, etc. Or maybe it's the director that does the insisting.
Or maybe the costume designer has more control over the lesser actors...

In The Lion In Winter, I always much preferred Eleanor, properly wimpled,
to the sexy young Alys, whose dress would have been completely beyond the
pale of respectable to medieval eyes. 

--Robin

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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Fri Oct 15 12:27:57 1999
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From: "Penny Ladnier" <penny.creative.outlets@erols.com>
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-Poster: "Penny Ladnier" <penny.creative.outlets@erols.com>

Restoration!  From the moment I saw the film, I thought there goes the
Costuming Oscar! And it won.

Later... Penny

> Could I beg the list's indulgence for a brief period and ask of everyone
> their favorite
> "authentic-period" movies where the costumer really did earn their academy
> award
> or nomination?
> I've been following the career of Gabriella Pescucci, Deborah Scott
> and
> Sandy Powell.


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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Fri Oct 15 12:28:04 1999
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Date: Tue, 12 Oct 1999 13:24:34 -0700
To: h-costume@indra.com
From: Carolyn Kayta Barrows <kayta@slip.net>
Subject: H-COST: wench, was Front lacing bodices
In-Reply-To: <3806616D.8788791@serv.net>
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-Poster: Carolyn Kayta Barrows <kayta@slip.net>

Speaking as someone who works at a Ren. Faire where some people call
themselves by the name of wench, and having seen some pretty 'revealing'
examples of bodices on said wenches, I feel the need to reply.

What are commonly thought of as 'wench bodices', by our customers, are
usually without sleeves or sleeve attachments, are front-lacing, and are
sometimes cut below the breasts (leaving the poor overworked chemise to try
to do the job usually done by a bra).  My guess is that this bodice
originally derived from the Bermondsly (sp?) Wedding picture, by way of
several costume directors, many different bodice manufacturers, and decades
of usage.  The 'wench' bodices in the B.W. picture are respectably
high-cut, and front closing.  At Faire, ours are anywhere from pretty
correct to pure fantasy.

My understanding of the word wench is that originally it meant lower class
young woman and only later came to mean 'available' lower class young
woman.  So many of our young female participants call themselves wench
without meaning anything their mothers wouldn't approve of.  Wench a word
our customers know, so they delight in calling all our female ale stand
servers by that name.  I even get called wench, at age 50, when they aren't
calling me milady, the only other word they know for woman.

>> Granted the "wench" bodices aren't
>> accurate but many of the bodices in these paintings do lace in the front.
>> http://www.lepg.org/gallery.htm
>>
>> I think I am confused.  Aren't these "wench" bodices?  How does a "wench"
>> bodice differ from the ones shown in the paintings?
>
>Wandering off into opinion territory here.  This is my opinion.  The ladies in
>these pictures are ladies with respectable jobs.  They are not wenches.  These
>are not wench bodices.
>
>The wench bodices I am familiar with here in my neck of the woods (An
>Tir/Seattle WA) lace tightly so that the edges of the fabric meet.  The front
>edges of the fabric doesn't meet in those pictues.  And the in the More Family
>portrait those front edges don't touch either.  There is a good 5-6 inches of
>stomacher showing under the laces.  Wench bodices don't do this.  Many, many
>wench bodices here don't even cover the breasts but leave them hanging
above or
>outside of the bodice front, only the chemise (underwear) covering them for
>modesty.  Not very modest.  Not what a respectable medieval woman would have
>worn.  Not in my opinion.  Ergo, wench.
>
>Cynthia
>--
>Cynthia Long
>Merouda the True of Beaumaris
>Barony of Madrone
>Kingdom of An Tir
>
>



Kayta
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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Fri Oct 15 12:45:23 1999
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Date: Tue, 12 Oct 1999 13:35:33 -0700
To: h-costume@indra.com
From: Carolyn Kayta Barrows <kayta@slip.net>
Subject: Re: H-COST: Stubbes on Jerkins
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-Poster: Carolyn Kayta Barrows <kayta@slip.net>

What country was he talking about - Germany?

>And just to throw another fish into the pot, here's a quote from
>Phillip Stubbes (Elizabethan commentator extroardinaire) on the
>subject (written in 1583:)
>
>"Their coates and Jerkins, as they be diverse in colors, so be they
>diverse in fashions; for some be made with colors, some without, some
>close to the bodie, some loose, covering the whole body downe to the
>theighe, like baggs or sacks that weare
>
>drawen over them, hidinge the dimensions and proportions of the body:
>some are buttened down the brest, some under the arm, and some downe
>the back; some with flappes over the brest, some without, some with
>great sleeves, some with small, and some with non at all; some pleated
>and crested behind, and curiously gathered; some not so; & how many
>days so many sortes of apparell some one man will have, and thinketh
>it good provision in faire weather to lay up against a storme! "



Kayta
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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Fri Oct 15 12:45:31 1999
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Date: Tue, 12 Oct 1999 13:28:38 -0700
To: h-costume@indra.com
From: Carolyn Kayta Barrows <kayta@slip.net>
Subject: Re: H-COST: Check this out!
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.96.991014105537.22308D-100000@general1.asu.edu>
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-Poster: Carolyn Kayta Barrows <kayta@slip.net>

What's all the fuss?  It's someone's old Ren. Faire outfit.  I've seen MUCH
worse.

KATHLEEN.MAHER@asu.edu writes, in a message sent 10:56 A 10/14/99 -0700:
>
>-Poster: KATHLEEN.MAHER@asu.edu
>
>http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=180321545
>



Kayta
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From: "Vince Lyons" <vjlyons@snip.net>
To: <h-costume@indra.com>
References: <006e01bf171a$d93b6480$80f4fea9@ouppc> <001d01bf172f$696e20b0$7e065cc3@herimats>
Subject: Re: H-COST: Breast Cancer Fundraiser (OT)
Date: Fri, 15 Oct 1999 14:01:22 -0400
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-Poster: "Vince Lyons" <vjlyons@snip.net>

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0057_01BF1715.C3746340
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
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Mabel
  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: LDMundy=20
  Sent: Friday, October 15, 1999 1:04 PM
  Subject: Re: H-COST: Breast Cancer Fundraiser (OT)


  >I just had to delurk to correct an false impression that you may have =
>inadvertently strengthened.
  >Breast cancer is not confined to the female of the species, usually =
yes but not >solely.
  >LDM

  Yes, you're right of course.  This year the American Cancer Society =
estimates that there will be about 175,000 new cases of invasive breast =
cancer this year among women in the United States and about 43,300 =
deaths from the disease,  statistics for men are 1,300 diagnosed with =
approximately 400 deaths.

  The death rate for men would likely be much lower if they were more =
aware of the disease and obtained aggressive treatment earlier.



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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD><TITLE>Mabel</TITLE>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type><BASE=20
href=3D"file://C:\Program Files\Common Files\Microsoft =
Shared\Stationery\">
<STYLE></STYLE>

<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2614.3500" name=3DGENERATOR>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2314.1000" name=3DGENERATOR>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2614.3500" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY background=3D"" bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000080 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: =
0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV=20
  style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
  <A href=3D"mailto:dave@wysewords.softnet.co.uk"=20
  title=3Ddave@wysewords.softnet.co.uk>LDMundy</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Friday, October 15, 1999 =
1:04=20
  PM</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: H-COST: Breast =
Cancer=20
  Fundraiser (OT)</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>&gt;I just had to delurk to correct =
an false=20
  impression that you may have &gt;inadvertently =
strengthened.</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>&gt;Breast cancer is not confined to =
the female=20
  of the species, usually yes but not &gt;solely.</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>&gt;LDM</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Yes, you're right of course.&nbsp; =
This year the=20
  American Cancer Society estimates that there will be about 175,000 new =
cases=20
  of invasive breast cancer this year among women in the United States =
and about=20
  43,300 deaths from the disease,&nbsp; statistics for men are 1,300 =
diagnosed=20
  with approximately 400 deaths.</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>The death rate for men would likely =
be much lower=20
  if they were more aware of the disease and obtained aggressive =
treatment=20
  earlier.</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Fri Oct 15 12:51:04 1999
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From: "StitchWitch" <stitchwitch@excite.com>
To: h-costume@indra.com
Subject: Re: H-COST: movie "inspirations"
Message-Id: <940009185.16407.133@excite.com>
Date: Fri, 15 Oct 1999 10:39:45 PDT
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-Poster: "StitchWitch" <stitchwitch@excite.com>


> Could I beg the list's indulgence for a brief period and ask of everyone
> their favorite
> "authentic-period" movies where the costumer really did earn their
academy
> award
> or nomination?
> 	I've been following the career of Gabriella Pescucci, Deborah Scott
> and
> Sandy Powell.
> 
> -gina

I don't know about the level of accuracy for this one, but it rates pretty
high on the inspiration side: Coppola's(sp?) Dracula. I loved nearly every
one of the costumes, even the odd ones worn by Lucy. (Though I'm not sure
I'd go for the lace thing around my neck that she was buried in. Is that
remotely period for anywhen?)

I also very much liked the costumes in Age of Innocence. The gown of pale
satin with the purple embroidery is a great favorite. 

Actually, it just occured to me that the woman wearing the costumes I liked
best in both these films is Winona Ryder. From what I've read, she has a
small enough figure to fit into corsetted style garments, without a whole
lot of corsetting. Which means that if I ever get around to recreating any
of these dresses, I'm not going to get *quite* the same look! ;)

Kate
----
StitchWitch

A learned bastard takes precedence over an ignorant high priest. - The
Talmud, 5th Cen.




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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Fri Oct 15 13:05:28 1999
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Date: Fri, 15 Oct 1999 14:16:01 -0400
To: h-costume@indra.com
From: Ron Carnegie <rcarnegie@widomaker.com>
Subject: Re: H-COST: movie "inspirations"
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-Poster: Ron Carnegie <rcarnegie@widomaker.com>

At 12:57 PM 10/15/99 EDT, you wrote:
>
>-Poster: MzScahlett@aol.com
>
>In a message dated 10/15/1999 9:47:15 AM Pacific Daylight Time, 
>keltia@serv.net writes:
>
><< First I'll state that I don't believe it would be possible for a costumer 
>to
> make entirely period and authentic costumes for any movie, mainly due to time
> and money constraints, but I think some try harder than others.  >>
>
>Cynthia, I find your statement intriguing.  I believe I disagree, but am 
>unclear as to what you mean by "entirely period"... if you mean down to 
>underwear and fastenings that might never be seen, then certainly it is rare, 
>but *never* ?? Just curious as to what your meaning was.
>

        I can not speak for Cynthia, but for most of human history clothing
has been hand sewn from hand woven fabric, perhaps that is what she means.
Of course the ability to make an "entirely period" production depends
greatlt on the period.  Recently I watched "The Great Lebowski".  As a movie
made in the late nineties that is about the early nineties it is a period
film, with very accurate costuming.  

Cheers,
Ron Carnegie
rcarnegie@widomaker.com
	*************************************************
	"The poetry of history lies in the quasi-miraculous fact that
	 once on this earth, on this familiar spot of ground walked
	 other men and women as actual as we are today, thinking
	 their own thoughts, swayed by their own passions but now
	 all gone, vanishing after another, gone as utterly as we 
	 ourselves shall be gone like ghosts at cockcrow."
				G.M. Trevelyan
	*************************************************

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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Fri Oct 15 13:08:56 1999
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Date: Fri, 15 Oct 1999 14:22:17 -0400 (EDT)
From: aleed <aleed@dnaco.net>
To: h-costume@indra.com
Subject: Re: H-COST: Stubbes on Jerkins
In-Reply-To: <4.1.19991012133447.00c1ade0@pop.slip.net>
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-Poster: aleed <aleed@dnaco.net>


He was an Englishman, commenting on English fashion.  I have his collected
opinions on Ruffs, women's hair, shoes, clothing, etc. online at
http://www.dnaco.net/~aleed/corsets/stubbes.html

Drea

On Tue, 12 Oct 1999, Carolyn Kayta Barrows wrote:

> 
> -Poster: Carolyn Kayta Barrows <kayta@slip.net>
> 
> What country was he talking about - Germany?
> 
> >And just to throw another fish into the pot, here's a quote from
> >Phillip Stubbes (Elizabethan commentator extroardinaire) on the
> >subject (written in 1583:)
> >
> >"Their coates and Jerkins, as they be diverse in colors, so be they
> >diverse in fashions; for some be made with colors, some without, some
> >close to the bodie, some loose, covering the whole body downe to the
> >theighe, like baggs or sacks that weare
> >
> >drawen over them, hidinge the dimensions and proportions of the body:
> >some are buttened down the brest, some under the arm, and some downe
> >the back; some with flappes over the brest, some without, some with
> >great sleeves, some with small, and some with non at all; some pleated
> >and crested behind, and curiously gathered; some not so; & how many
> >days so many sortes of apparell some one man will have, and thinketh
> >it good provision in faire weather to lay up against a storme! "
> 
> 
> 
> Kayta
>      ////.\\\
>     ////-@@\\\
>    ((((   7 (((
>      |   -- ))))
>      * )   (((((
>   /----\   /---\
> 
> 

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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Fri Oct 15 13:15:58 1999
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Subject: Re: H-COST: movie accuracy/ was "inspirations"
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-Poster: MzScahlett@aol.com

In a message dated 10/15/1999 10:22:37 AM Pacific Daylight Time, 
keltia@serv.net writes:

<< I mean every single detail.  Head to toe.  Websters:  "Entire, Having no 
part left
 out, being without limitation or reservation, complete, intact".  And I do 
mean
 accurate.  Given time and money, they could probably do it.  Would they?  I 
doubt
 it.  Should they?  Personal opinion.  Truly it would then depend on the era
 wouldn't it?  Pre-1550 it would be close to impossible for anyone, for any 
reason,
 to create a fully accurate ensemble since we don't know everything about 
every
 item of  clothing earlier than that.  Right? >>

I see little benefit in that kind of extreme replication of historical detail 
in film, unless it is a documentary of the construction of the clothing.  
While it is important to note that visible details should be very carefully 
tended to, in order that they appear accurate to their time period, and that 
historical details should be incorporated into the film whenever the plot or 
story merits, I take issue (yes, personal choice here) with the suggested 
position that there is some particular merit that say: garments in a film 
about Ancient Egypt should be hand-woven out of Papyrus reeds, or whatever 
method was used in the past, rather than say, manufactured in a modern way 
which would appear just as accurate (I feel it necessary to reiterate that 
this only works if there is no visual difference in the resultant 
end-product).  It just seems like overkill to me.  

While I "get" why costumers sometimes sew items by hand, or use other 
historically appropriate methods of building costumes for film, and sometimes 
it can and does lend itself to the feel of a story, because it helps the 
actors really feel transported, I think it's generally a bit much, and 
couldn't myself conceive of  a convincing argument for why it would be worth 
all the money and time it would entail.  To say one had done it perhaps?  

Maybe-- but I just don't see film as necessarily the venue for that kind of 
instructive detail, particularly when it appears you're discussing the lack 
of  "details in the invisible" so to speak.  Unless a closeup of a particular 
item of clothing, displaying the "period accurate" construction, lent itself 
to the story,  I don't see it's value to the film.  To the costumer, perhaps, 
as there is always a sense of creative delight in doing things in a well 
thought out and detailed manner.  So my response to the "should they" would 
be no, of course not (with the foregoing provisos).  But, you're right, it's 
just a matter of opinion at that point.  Interesting question though.

angela+++++
Angela F. Lazear
Costumes & Custom Clothing
Theatrical Costume Design
"As in a theater, the eyes of men, 
after a well-graced actor leaves the stage, 
are idly bent on him that enters next, 
thinking his prattle to be tedious."
Richard II;  V, ii - W. Shakespeare
QUICK-LINK: http://come.to/costumes
FULL URL: http://sj.znet.com/~thespian/angil/index.html 
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-Poster: MzScahlett@aol.com

In a message dated 10/15/1999 11:20:17 AM Pacific Daylight Time, 
rcarnegie@widomaker.com writes:

<<   I can not speak for Cynthia, but for most of human history clothing
 has been hand sewn from hand woven fabric, perhaps that is what she means. >>

Without reiterating it here, she did mean exactly that apparently.  I 
responded at length, as the question intrigued me.  I think that I will 
always value "inspiration over accuracy" (to quote a fellow lister) in film 
or stage, the latter being my venue of choice. I understand many find 
accuracy rewarding, and do not begrudge them their own passions, I simply 
believe that what we see should move our souls first, teach us history, a 
distant second.

angela+++++
Angela F. Lazear
Costumes & Custom Clothing
Theatrical Costume Design
"If we shadows have offended, think but this,
 and all is mended,
That you have but slumbered here,
 while these visions did appear."
A Midsummer Night's Dream; V, ii - W. Shakespeare
QUICK-LINK: http://come.to/costumes
FULL URL: http://sj.znet.com/~thespian/angil/index.html


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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Fri Oct 15 13:24:05 1999
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From: Merouda the True of Beaumaris <keltia@serv.net>
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-Poster: Merouda the True of Beaumaris <keltia@serv.net>

> << I mean every single detail.  Head to toe.  Websters:  "Entire, Having no
> part left
>  out, being without limitation or reservation, complete, intact".  And I do
> mean accurate
>
> I see little benefit in that kind of extreme replication of historical detail
> in film, unless it is a documentary of the construction of the clothing.

[major snip]

Please don't assume that my comments mean I think this should be so.  I don't.
The question pertained to accuracy of costuming in movies and I said it wasn't
done.  I never said it should be done, just said I didn't think it would be
done.  You're reading *WAY* to much into my comments.

Cynthia

--
Cynthia Long
Merouda the True of Beaumaris
Barony of Madrone
Kingdom of An Tir


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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Fri Oct 15 13:37:04 1999
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Date: Fri, 15 Oct 1999 14:50:03 EDT
Subject: Re: H-COST: movie accuracy/ was "inspirations"
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-Poster: MzScahlett@aol.com

In a message dated 10/15/1999 11:40:59 AM Pacific Daylight Time, 
keltia@serv.net writes:

<< Please don't assume that my comments mean I think this should be so.  I 
don't.
 The question pertained to accuracy of costuming in movies and I said it 
wasn't
 done.  I never said it should be done, just said I didn't think it would be
 done.  You're reading *WAY* to much into my comments >>

Cynthia

Didn't mean to sound as though you were the only one who might take the 
position, but since you brought it up, I was moved to respond with my 
opinion.  I honestly think it's a very valid point of discussion.  Which is 
more important, art or accuracy? When do they coincide? At what point is one 
more valuable than the other? It comes up a lot here on the list, and we're 
certainly divided on the issue.  

I did get the feeling that you believed accuracy to have a certain amount of 
importance and that it's absence in film was something you felt needed 
correcting, but it's a valid point.  It's something I feel rather passionate 
about (could you tell?), but sometimes it's hard not to sound "harsh" in an 
e-mail.  Didn't mean to be abrasive.

Perhaps I was a bit dazed from the bump on my head left by the Webster's 
Dictionary (::rubs head grinning::)  

angela+++++
Angela F. Lazear
Costumes & Custom Clothing
Theatrical Costume Design
"If we shadows have offended, think but this,
 and all is mended,
That you have but slumbered here,
 while these visions did appear."
A Midsummer Night's Dream; V, ii - W. Shakespeare
QUICK-LINK: http://come.to/costumes
FULL URL: http://sj.znet.com/~thespian/angil/index.html

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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Fri Oct 15 13:38:04 1999
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Date: Fri, 15 Oct 1999 14:47:55 -0400
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From: Ron Carnegie <rcarnegie@widomaker.com>
Subject: Re: H-COST: movie "inspirations"
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-Poster: Ron Carnegie <rcarnegie@widomaker.com>

At 02:33 PM 10/15/99 EDT, you wrote:
>
>-Poster: MzScahlett@aol.com
>
>In a message dated 10/15/1999 11:20:17 AM Pacific Daylight Time, 
>rcarnegie@widomaker.com writes:
>
><<   I can not speak for Cynthia, but for most of human history clothing
> has been hand sewn from hand woven fabric, perhaps that is what she means. >>
>
>Without reiterating it here, she did mean exactly that apparently.  I 
>responded at length, as the question intrigued me.  I think that I will 
>always value "inspiration over accuracy" (to quote a fellow lister) in film 
>or stage, the latter being my venue of choice. I understand many find 
>accuracy rewarding, and do not begrudge them their own passions, I simply 
>believe that what we see should move our souls first, teach us history, a 
>distant second.
>
        True, but you are creating an argument were none was suggested.
Cynthia stated that costuming could not practicaly be truly authentic, and
then asked her question (that being what films are considered to have an
authentic feel to the costuming by the list members).  Later, some one asked
why she did not think a film could be trully authentic, and so I answered
the question.  Cynthia's comment is true, and you agree that it is not
difficulty.  No one I have read on this thread so far (including myself)
have stated anything different.

        My soul has never been moved by a movie, but it has been by history.

Cheers,
Ron Carnegie
rcarnegie@widomaker.com
	*************************************************
	"The poetry of history lies in the quasi-miraculous fact that
	 once on this earth, on this familiar spot of ground walked
	 other men and women as actual as we are today, thinking
	 their own thoughts, swayed by their own passions but now
	 all gone, vanishing after another, gone as utterly as we 
	 ourselves shall be gone like ghosts at cockcrow."
				G.M. Trevelyan
	*************************************************

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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Fri Oct 15 13:41:07 1999
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-Poster: aleed <aleed@dnaco.net>

I like Sandy Powell (Shakespeare in Love, Interview with the Vampire,
Orlando, Rob Roy, Wings of the Dove, and several other dazzling
productions) James Acheson (Restoration, the Sheltering Sky, Dangerous
Liaisons), Gabrielle Pescucci (Dangerous Beauty, A Midsummer Night's
Dream,Indochine, Age of Innocence, The Scarlet Letter) Jenny Beavan & John
Bright (Room with a View, Howard's End, Sense and Sensibility).

Drea


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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Fri Oct 15 13:55:41 1999
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From: Merouda the True of Beaumaris <keltia@serv.net>
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-Poster: Merouda the True of Beaumaris <keltia@serv.net>

> I honestly think it's a very valid point of discussion.  Which is
> more important, art or accuracy? When do they coincide? At what point is one
> more valuable than the other? It comes up a lot here on the list, and we're
> certainly divided on the issue.

It is a good question.  It just wasn't asked.  But since you have now, I would
say that for me I like to see both.

> I did get the feeling that you believed accuracy to have a certain amount of
> importance and that it's absence in film was something you felt needed
> correcting, but it's a valid point.

I certianly never meant to give that feeling.  :)  I felt that it's absence
needed *explaining*.  Not correcting.   I know that some folks on this list *DO*
feel that way, at least to a certain point, judging from the irate comments that
appear on the list after an historical costuming flick has hit the screens.  I
am not one of them.  I do appreciate an attempt on the designer to get the feel
and the silhouette right so that it doesn't jar the psyche but I also appreciate
human creativity.  Personally, while I am a serious researcher and recreator to
the best of my abilities in the SCA, I also believe that the C (Creative) is
desirable.

> It's something I feel rather passionate
> about (could you tell?), but sometimes it's hard not to sound "harsh" in an
> e-mail.  Didn't mean to be abrasive.

Nope, couldn't tell at all.  *G*

Cynthia
--
Cynthia Long
Merouda the True of Beaumaris
Barony of Madrone
Kingdom of An Tir


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From: rio@austin.rr.com (StrangeGirl)
To: h-costume@indra.com
Subject: Re: H-COST: Recent posts
Date: Fri, 15 Oct 1999 19:08:17 GMT
Organization: The Corner of my Desk
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-Poster: rio@austin.rr.com (StrangeGirl)

On Fri, 15 Oct 1999 10:54:10 -0500, the following was written in this
electric book by "Genevieve de Courtanvaux" <gdc@airmail.net>:

>
>
>Ok, I have to correct all of you on a statement that most have been making
>from this person's e-bay clothing. Some of you have ranted about the twill
>fabric it was made from. 

If you are referring to me, I was merely attempting to surmise what
was meant byt the persom auctioning the dress when she stated
'denim-like', in response to someone who could not figure out what
this person meant. No more. I cannot figure out how you read that into
my posting. <confused>

All I objected to was her use of a white lacing that looked pretty
unattractive (rather like inexpensive white shoelaces) in the context
of such a fantasy outfit. Hopefully the new owner will make a change
there.

I did like the hat. It's pretty, even if it looks like it was borrowed
form someone else's costume :)

Margery
"Do you have any files?"
"We're the government, of course we have files."
Millenium
{*to reply take spambegone from my reply-to address*}
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From: "Cynthia Barnes" <Cynthia_Barnes@phoenix.com>
To: "H-Costume (E-mail)" <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: H-COST: re: Pourpoints & Houppelands (grande assiettes)
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-Poster: "Cynthia Barnes" <Cynthia_Barnes@phoenix.com>

Robin asked:
>I would use the term "grande assiette" to refer to an armhole that's
>deeply cut into the body at the back in a large circular shape. Is that
>what you're seeing?

yes, exactly. By the way, I asked you & the list whether the term "grandes
assiettes" was modern or something mentioned by 15th contemporaries.  I've
answered by own question.  It is a 15th c term as you can see from these
quotations; your nomenclature is well justified for pourpoints.

1432  “To Perrin Bossout, valet and tailor,  … for assembly of 2 pourpoints
made for MdS in his city of Brouxelles (Brussels), the one of black damasked
cloth in 4 quarters, and the other “a grands assiettes” in VI layers of
fabric & 1 leather”
For fabric and fashioning of 2 pourpoints [for] MdS in his city of Bruges
in order to go to Holland to be done(derrain?) in black fustian, the one in
4 quarters and of 5 fabric layers, the other “a grandes assiettes” in 3
layers; for each one XLs”
And for assembly of 2 pourpoints in black fustian that these would be made
in the city of Dijon to put on & wear at Avalon, the one in in 4 quarters
and of 5 fabric layers, the other “a grandes assiettes” in 3 layers; for
each one XLs”

from accounts published in “Les Ducques de Burgoygne" as cited in "Jeanne
d'Arc, ses costumes, son armeur" by A. Harmand and translated by moi.

And also:
* Red “assiettes”, white passé-poils … assiettes deep green, red passé-poils
* A very rich “assiette” of sleeves (menches?) which will be made in one
color (collier?)
* Pourpoint white, assiettes deep green … Pourpoint blue, assiettes light
grey

also cited in "Jeanne d'Arc, ses costumes, son armeur" by A. Harmand and
translated by moi.  You'll also see here the problem word "passé-poils" that
I asked about earlier this week. Parenthetical words are transcribed from
the original text.

--cin
Cynthia Barnes
408.570.1023
Cynthia_Barnes@phoenix.com
Phoenix Technologies
411 E. Plumeria Dr.
San Jose CA 95134
"I think animal testing is a terrible idea; they get all nervous and
give the wrong answers."
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Date: Fri, 15 Oct 1999 14:41:27 -0500
From: Marc Carlson <marc-carlson@utulsa.edu>
Subject: Re: H-COST: Pourpoints & Houppelands
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-Poster: Marc Carlson <marc-carlson@utulsa.edu>

<marc-carlson@utulsa.edu>
>> Seriously, terminology at the time wasn't standard, so 
>>anything we say today can only be arbitrary...
>
>Unfortunately, while this is true enough, I'm not 
>certain that it isn't overstating the issue far enough 
>that it makes it somewhat pointless to try and even 
>asume we know what we are talking about.
>
>I agree though that we do need to be careful to define 
>what we are talking about.

Ok, let's try this again - actually having a point this
time... :)

Let's look at the term "Doublet", just as an example.  It's
a term that appears frequently in the costuming literature.  
General meaning is a shortish man's garment, fastens up the 
front, may or may not have sleeves, ancestor to modern garments 
like jackets a vests.  Very popular in the 16th century.  
Does anyone have any problem with that?

I have heard some people in modern context differentiate 
between doublets and jerkins, suggesting that the jerkin is
the sleeveless garment.  But if we are talking about clothing 
before 1500 or thereabouts there is a problem with this (since
that's when the earliest appearance of the term "jerkin" is 
in English (OED2)).  "Doublet" appears well before that.

In fact, the earliest noted appearence of "doublet" is in the
Wardrobe accounts of Edward II (1326).  That would seem strange
to me, and wonder what they were referring to, except that I
know that under Edward II men's clothes in England (and perhaps
elsewhere) went through a period of getting very short before
getting longer again.  The term doesn't seem to appear again 
in English until the 1400s (OED2 and MED).  So I think it's not
unreasonable to assume that it meant more or less what we've
defined it to mean.

So, if we turn to the "Charles of Blois" outfit, is that a 
doublet?  By the definition above, sure it is.  But we think
of it as a "pourpoint".  So what is a pourpoint?  I was 
originally taught that it was an undergarment, the sole purpose
of which is to attach one's hose to.

Ok, so, Wilcox (1969) defines Pourpoint as "See gambeson, jerkin, 
action [sic]."  She defines Acton as "See gambeson, pourpoint, 
doublet" (although she shows a sketch of a padded sleeveless 
hip-length garment).  Doublet is defined as "See gambeson, 
jerkin".  "Gambeson or Pourpoint,  a doublet, often sleeveless, 
of leather or cloth, stuffed and quilted.  It was worn as a pad 
under armor in the Middle Ages and in civil dress by men, women, 
and children."  "Jerkin,  In the fourteenth century, the man's 
cote-hardie developed into a garment known as a doublet or 
pourpoint, both words meaning a wadded jerkin, jaque, jacket, or 
gambeson.  A similar garment for women was known as a jerkinet.  
The jerkin became a sort of waistcoat in the north of England, 
worn up to the early twentieth century."

Davies (1994) refers to Pourpoint as "Masc. Close-fitting jerkin,
padded. 14th cent.  Predecessor of doublet (see GIPON)."  "Gipon Masc. 
Padded bodice of 14th century. Forerunner of doublet (see (GYPON)."
"Gypon Masc. Well tailored, fitting garment worn over shirt, later 
called DOUBLET. 14th-17th Cent. (also GIPON)."  However, "Doublet  
Masc. Padded, closefitting body garment, with or without sleeves, 
worn originally under a breastplate.  Later worn over the shirt, 
14th-16th Cent. Sometimes slashed. Became shorter after 17th Cent., 
evolving into the waistcoat (See GAMBESON)." "Gambeson Masc. Padded 
bodice of leather or cloth, worn under armour of Middle Ages.  
Later in the 16th cent., worn by civil. population."  "Jerkin Masc. 
Tight-fitting jacket which replaced the cotehardie in the late 
15th Cent.  Sometimes made of leather...."

Boucher (1966) defines  Pourpoint  as "See Doublet".  "Doublet/Pourpoint  
Originally a quilted garment, i.e. padded with cotton or waste, 
held in place by stitching; worn under the hauberk.  It was a 
variety of gippon or gambeson  in in rich cloth, which passed 
from military to civil costume and became an outer garment from 
the early 14th century.  In the 16th century and up to the 17th 
century it was a garment worn by all men; the shape and trimmings 
changed, but its basic character remained unchanged."  "Gambeson  
Quilted padded garment worn under armour; it passed into civilian 
costume in the 14th century under the name of juppe, gippon, 
pourpoint or doublet". "Gipon/Gippon  Also called jupe, jupel, 
jupon, in the Middle Ages.  A sort of doublet made of padded, 
quilted material.  It was an undergarment and the breeches were 
attached to it; in the mid 14th century it became indistinquishable 
from the doublet and the jacket made in rich materials which 
replaced it."  "Jupe  From the Arabic djuba, jacket.  In the Middle 
Ages it was confused with GIPPON but also meant women's jacket..."

The OED defines Pourpoint  as 1.  Something quilted, such as a Gambais 
purpoint, or a Cuilt purpoint and 2. A doublet, stuffed and quilted,
worn by men in the 14th and 15th centuries.  The additional text 
implies that this is a modern usage.

Obviously, there is a problem here (I selected these three of these 
glossaries because they are commonly used today by costumers).  There's 
no surprise that people are being confused by the topics since the 
sources really don't agree with each other, and appear to be 
contradicting themselves.

This isn't helped by the fact that the definitions change over time
(although that was one of the reasons I picked this example -- details
change, but overall it seems to be the same garment).

Marc
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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Fri Oct 15 14:29:24 1999
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From: Gina Torretta <gtorretta@cid.wustl.edu>
To: "'Historic Costuming'" <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: H-COST: art vs. accuracy
Date: Fri, 15 Oct 1999 14:47:23 -0500
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-Poster: Gina Torretta <gtorretta@cid.wustl.edu>

following the transformed thread (and I appreciate all the input on
"movie inspirations") - 

I was recently intrigued by a comment from a relative who is only
marginally aware of the historical validity of clothing. He had seen the
movie Dangerous Beauty and was asking me why the courtesan's
dresses exposed the legs in a majority of the scenes. Was this a 
possible fashion of 16thc Venice? Or just artistic license of Pescucci?

I've spent a month or less perusing my limited art books to discover that
I have *no* art of actual courtesan's couture (in fact I have no idea if a
Toulouse Lautrec could have existed at this time period eaking out a living
doing the portraits of the medieval call girl)

any takers?
-gina
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Date: Fri, 15 Oct 1999 15:43:01 -0400
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From: Ron Carnegie <rcarnegie@widomaker.com>
Subject: Re: H-COST: movie accuracy/ was "inspirations"
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-Poster: Ron Carnegie <rcarnegie@widomaker.com>

At 12:10 PM 10/15/99 -0700, you wrote:
>
>-Poster: Merouda the True of Beaumaris <keltia@serv.net>
>
>> I honestly think it's a very valid point of discussion.  Which is
>> more important, art or accuracy? When do they coincide? At what point is one
>> more valuable than the other? It comes up a lot here on the list, and we're
>> certainly divided on the issue.
>

        Art and accuracy are NOT mutually exclusive terms.  A very high
level of artistic ability is necessary for quite a few historical periods. I
for one am far more impressed with the artistic ability to recreate accurate
clothing than with a costume designers ideas of what SHOULD have been period.  

        Now I am a first person interpreter in a living history mueseum.
Where I work I would prefer a very high level of accuracy (higher than we
have), but many of the same requirements I would expect at work, I would NOT
expect for a movie or theatrical program.  Much of it is unneccesary in that
venue.

        It is far more imortant in my mind, that movie costumes appear
historical than that they be truly authentic.  As example, movies SHOULD use
proper underclothes in most occasions, as they often affect sillouhette, but
handsewn, hand woven, even natural fabric is not so needed.  It is true that
all of these things can affect the visual appearance of the clothing, but
how much of that carries over to the film?  As long as it appears
historically authentic that is fine.  

        The historical accuracy of a period film does affect my enjoyment of
the film, and can lead to my decision even to see the film.  One of my
favourite films is Rob Roy, but many of its costumes are rather inaccurate,
so it does not always stop me from enjoying a film.  Persuasion, the clothes
are my favourite part of that film.  (Innacurate costumes alone are not
enough to stop me from seeing a film, it takes that and a similiar lack of
concern to the other historic concerns like Braveheart).

Cheers,
Ron Carnegie
rcarnegie@widomaker.com
	*************************************************
	"The poetry of history lies in the quasi-miraculous fact that
	 once on this earth, on this familiar spot of ground walked
	 other men and women as actual as we are today, thinking
	 their own thoughts, swayed by their own passions but now
	 all gone, vanishing after another, gone as utterly as we 
	 ourselves shall be gone like ghosts at cockcrow."
				G.M. Trevelyan
	*************************************************

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Date: Fri, 15 Oct 1999 12:59:29 -0700 (PDT)
From: Sarah Toney <sarah_and_pooh@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: H-COST: Favorite Costume Designers
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-Poster: Sarah Toney <sarah_and_pooh@yahoo.com>

>Dangerous Liaisons

I must say, I think this is my favorite... the
costuming is great (and I find it inspirational) and
the movie was better! ;-)

An amusing side note:  While I will neither confirm
nor deny that I hated "Cruel Intentions", I found it
amusing that the local college paper hailed it as the
"wonderful and completely original new work"...
Original, huh?  I didn't realise that Dangerous
Liaisons was such an obscure movie that someone on the
newspaper staff would not have heard of it and know
that CI was a remake... ;-)  Anyway, amusing...

Now back to the regularly scheduled topic

=====

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Date: Fri, 15 Oct 1999 21:54:03 +0100
To: h-costume@indra.com
From: Jean Waddie <anne@montgomerie.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: H-COST: patterns overseas
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-Poster: Jean Waddie <anne@montgomerie.demon.co.uk>

In message <3804F186.1ABB1DE@ndh.net>, Andrea Clef <a.clef@ndh.net>
writes
>Unfortunately we don`t even get the Simplicity costume patterns in our
>stores although the regular Simplicity patterns are available over here.
>
>But I`m very lucky to have nice people in the States getting them for me
>(thanks a lot,
>Kate !).
>
>Many greetings,
>Diana
I went last week to get a mundane pattern, and the latest Simplicity
book has a _huge_ costume section - I reckon it's all the ones our
friends in the US talk about - the various Italian ren(ish), cotehardies
and sideless surcotes, the Shakespeare in Love one (which is gorgeous)
and the Scottish Lassies, amongst others.  The lady in the shop said
that you can't necessarily actually get the patterns in the UK, or some
have to be specially ordered, but it's much more than they used to even
show us.

Jean
>

-- 
Jean Waddie
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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Fri Oct 15 16:58:37 1999
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Date: Fri, 15 Oct 1999 18:12:08 EDT
Subject: H-COST: Needlework resources
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-Poster: MzScahlett@aol.com

I promised a friend that I'd remember to post and ask for the addresses of 
any needlework lists, or urls to any good needlework sites for her.

I forgot.  Anyone got a favorite they'd recommend?

angela+++++
Angela F. Lazear
Costumes & Custom Clothing
Theatrical Costume Design
"What fates impose, that men must needs abide; It boots not to resist both 
wind and tide."
King Henry VI, Part III, IV, iii - W. Shakespeare
QUICK-LINK:  http://come.to/costumes
FULL URL:  http://sj.znet.com/~thespian/angil/index.html



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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Fri Oct 15 17:11:53 1999
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Date: Fri, 15 Oct 1999 15:28:05 -0700
From: Merouda the True of Beaumaris <keltia@serv.net>
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-Poster: Merouda the True of Beaumaris <keltia@serv.net>

> I promised a friend that I'd remember to post and ask for the addresses of
> any needlework lists, or urls to any good needlework sites for her.
> Anyone got a favorite they'd recommend?

Several websties that I like.  A couple are merchants.  If you want my entire
bookmark list let me know.  :)

http://www.anu.edu.au/english/jems/sharon/stitchdictionarycontents.html
http://www.pacificnet.net/~pmarmor/bwarch.html
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Wymarc/master1.htm
http://www.staff.uiuc.edu/~jscole/medembro.html
http://www.classicstitches.com/
http://www.staff.uiuc.edu/~jscole/angelic.html
http://library.advanced.org/12834/text/fahions.html
http://www.nordicneedle.com/
--
Cynthia Long
Merouda the True of Beaumaris
Barony of Madrone
Kingdom of An Tir


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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Fri Oct 15 17:37:35 1999
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From: "m b" <gwenvyre@hotmail.com>
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Subject: Re: H-COST: movie "inspirations"
Date: Fri, 15 Oct 1999 15:51:33 PDT
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-Poster: "m b" <gwenvyre@hotmail.com>

TITANIC gets my vote.


>From: Gina Torretta <gtorretta@cid.wustl.edu>
>Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com
>To: "'Historic Costuming'" <h-costume@indra.com>
>Subject: H-COST: movie "inspirations"
>Date: Fri, 15 Oct 1999 11:07:40 -0500
>
>
>-Poster: Gina Torretta <gtorretta@cid.wustl.edu>
>
>Could I beg the list's indulgence for a brief period and ask of everyone
>their favorite
>"authentic-period" movies where the costumer really did earn their academy
>award
>or nomination?
>	I've been following the career of Gabriella Pescucci, Deborah Scott
>and
>Sandy Powell.
>
>-gina

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Date: Fri, 15 Oct 1999 18:02:56 -0500
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From: Melanie Schuessler <melanie@faucet.net>
Subject: Re: H-COST: art vs. accuracy
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-Poster: Melanie Schuessler <melanie@faucet.net>

>-Poster: Gina Torretta <gtorretta@cid.wustl.edu>
>
>I've spent a month or less perusing my limited art books to discover that
>I have *no* art of actual courtesan's couture (in fact I have no idea if a
>Toulouse Lautrec could have existed at this time period eaking out a living
>doing the portraits of the medieval call girl)

Long ago, I made a note of a book called _Lives of the Courtesans:
Portraits of the Renaissance_ by Lynne Lawner, ISBN 0-8478-0738-X.  I have
never actually seen this book, so I can't say anything about it, but it
sounds relevant.

Melanie


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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Fri Oct 15 18:20:59 1999
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Message-ID: <380782EE.71BB5E9@woodenporch.com>
Date: Fri, 15 Oct 1999 19:39:34 +0000
From: Lois <books@woodenporch.com>
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-Poster: Lois <books@woodenporch.com>

On ebay I have two of Arnold's Patterns of Fashion:
http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=182335099
http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=180208257

And an 1892 Harper's Bazar with a fold-out tissue pattern sheet with overlay
patterns for several garments:
http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=181956097

Postage is very reasonable, so check them out. Will be listing more.
Lois

--
Lois Mueller
Wooden Porch Books
books@woodenporch.com


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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Fri Oct 15 18:45:31 1999
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Date: Thu, 14 Oct 1999 23:30:28 -0400
To: h-costume@indra.com
From: Danielle Nunn <dnunn@interlog.com>
Subject: Re: H-COST: Recent posts or check this out
In-Reply-To: <007901bf1694$e93b1f00$f826163f@pbc.adelphia.net>
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-Poster: Danielle Nunn <dnunn@interlog.com>

Greetings,

Given all the discussion about that outfit on ebay I have a question.

Does anyone know of the origin of SCA/Ren Fair thing of lacing the side
(underarm) seams as well as the front?  I've never seen any evidence for it
in relation to Elizabethan stuff and was wondering if I'm missing something
obscure and Italian or what?

Cheers,
Danielle

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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Fri Oct 15 18:52:38 1999
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Date: Fri, 15 Oct 1999 17:07:39 -0700
From: Carolyn Richardson <benrumson@worldnet.att.net>
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-Poster: Carolyn Richardson <benrumson@worldnet.att.net>

Melanie Schuessler wrote:
> 
> -Poster: Melanie Schuessler <melanie@faucet.net>
> 
> >-Poster: Gina Torretta <gtorretta@cid.wustl.edu>
> >
> >I've spent a month or less perusing my limited art books to discover that
> >I have *no* art of actual courtesan's couture (in fact I have no idea if a
> >Toulouse Lautrec could have existed at this time period eaking out a living
> >doing the portraits of the medieval call girl)
> 
> Long ago, I made a note of a book called _Lives of the Courtesans:
> Portraits of the Renaissance_ by Lynne Lawner, ISBN 0-8478-0738-X.  I have
> never actually seen this book, so I can't say anything about it, but it
> sounds relevant.
>
I have it - it's very relevant and an excellent book on courtesan
lifestyles.  However, most of the art presented is "speculative" in that
a lot of it you probably already have in costume books, and the author
is making reasoned assumptions based on history that some of the women
depicted were courtesans.  I guess respectable women didn't normally get
painted in their underwear (shocking, I know ;-0).  Great book - I
recommend it.

Carolyn
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Date: Fri, 15 Oct 1999 20:43:10 -0400
To: h-costume@indra.com
From: Danielle Nunn <dnunn@interlog.com>
Subject: Re: H-COST: art vs. accuracy
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-Poster: Danielle Nunn <dnunn@interlog.com>

Greetings,

>I was recently intrigued by a comment from a relative who is only
>marginally aware of the historical validity of clothing. He had seen the
>movie Dangerous Beauty and was asking me why the courtesan's
>dresses exposed the legs in a majority of the scenes. Was this a 
>possible fashion of 16thc Venice? Or just artistic license of Pescucci?

The exposed leg thing is actually a take off of some 16th century woodcuts
but, not an accurate in terms of a style worn.  There are a couple of
woodcuts which either show two frames or have a flip-up portion.  In the
left hand picture is a picture of a Venetian woman wearing what appears to
be a more-or-less normal gown (flip-up down).  In the right hand picture or
with the skirt flipped-up you see the woman's legs encased in Venetians
(the knee-breeches type things).  I believe this was possibly artists
showing how scandalous Venetian ladies can be NOT a demonstration of
cut-away skirts and bustles.
 
>I've spent a month or less perusing my limited art books to discover >that
I have *no* art of actual courtesan's couture (in fact I have no >idea if a
Toulouse Lautrec could have existed at this time period eaking >out a
living doing the portraits of the medieval call girl)

Actually, I don't even know if the women depicted were actully cortesans
but, the seem to be the obvious source of the costuming idea.

Cheers,
Danielle

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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Fri Oct 15 21:00:29 1999
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Date: Fri, 15 Oct 1999 21:23:30 -0500 (CDT)
From: Robin Netherton <robin@shell.nightowl.net>
To: h-costume@indra.com
Subject: Re: H-COST: Pourpoints & Houppelands
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.19991015144127.007a5100@pop.utulsa.edu>
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-Poster: Robin Netherton <robin@shell.nightowl.net>


I wrote:
> >> Seriously, terminology at the time wasn't standard, so 
> >>anything we say today can only be arbitrary...

Marc wrote:
> >Unfortunately, while this is true enough, I'm not 
> >certain that it isn't overstating the issue far enough 
> >that it makes it somewhat pointless to try and even 
> >asume we know what we are talking about.

Oh, I'm sorry. Out of context my comment is indeed an overstatement. In
context, though, was responding to someone's query about a particular
garment: "Is it a houppelande even though it's cut in such-and-so a way?" 
My point is exactly what you also said -- it all depends on your
definition, and how narrowly or broadly we choose to apply the term.
Within the period, the same word might refer to different things, and
different words might refer to the same thing, and of course terms changed
by locale/language as well as time. So beyond a certain core of cases
in which we *know* the term was used, whether *we* call a particular item
a houppelande is arbitrary, and our use of the term is meaningful only if
all the people in our conversation understand exactly how we're defining
"houppelande."  Which might not be the same way some authors have defined
houppelande, or a different group of costumers talking on another day, or
even our same group of costumers talking a year ago or a year from now.

That doesn't mean none of us know what we're talking about (and Marc's
awe-inspiring discussion of "doublet" shows that some of us know more than
others -- I couldn't have produced that much information). But as was
pointed out some weeks ago, as we talk among ourselves, we have to be very
very careful not to fall into the trap of assuming that the terms we use
will mean the same thing to all others on this list, or in the costume or
scholarly community as a whole. 

For instance, I've noticed that some costumers today use the term
"cotehardie" to mean just about any fitted dress of 14th-15th century
Europe. Twenty years ago I learned the term as meaning only a fitted
overdress of 14th century Western Europe (primarily France, Flanders,
England, Germany). So now when someone says "cotehardie," I make sure to
stop and ask them exactly what they're referring to. (Especially crucial
when someone asks me what I think of the 10-gore "cotehardie"
construction...) 

That doesn't mean no one knows how the term "cotehardie" might have been
used in the period; we have some evidence for its use, at various times
and places. But it does mean our application of the term today is rather
arbitrary -- can we use it for a Bohemian dress that looks identical to a
French one, even though the Bohemians would not have used the same term? 
Can we use it for an underdress as well as an overdress? Can we use it for
a dress of 1440 as well as one of 1380? 

For my purposes, when I talk about a 14th-century fitted dress, I call it
a "14th-century fitted dress," because I figure that's the clearest way I
can express myself. And I have a little boilerplate paragraph that goes
within the first five minutes of every lecture I give: "Costume
terminology was not standard at the time, and it is not standard today..."
and then I state and define the exact terms I'm using in that lecture.

Despite all this, someone not long ago read one of my papers and still
came away confused because she was using a different definition for
"tippet" than I was. It hadn't even occurred to me that there was another
way to use that word in that context. That'll teach me to be even MORE
careful about taking terminology for granted.

--Robin



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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Fri Oct 15 21:13:31 1999
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Date: Fri, 15 Oct 1999 19:24:42 -0700
From: Susan Fatemi <susanf@netwiz.net>
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-Poster: Susan Fatemi <susanf@netwiz.net>

StitchWitch wrote:
> 
> I don't know about the level of accuracy for this one, but it rates pretty
> high on the inspiration side: Coppola's(sp?) Dracula. I loved nearly every
> one of the costumes, even the odd ones worn by Lucy. (Though I'm not sure

I liked "Dracula's" costumes in Dracula -- outrageous flights of
fantasy all the way. 

And Sandy Powell's wonderful costumes in Wings of a Dove (is that
the right title?) 

And the woman (I can't remember anything lately) who won the Oscar
for Priscilla Queen of the Desert. Far out.

And most of the programs in the British "Mystery" series
(ok, it's TV, sorry) But in Poirot, for example, they go to
such great pains to be "period". Even the shoes.

And the King and I. Not very "authentic", but very gorgeous.

And Raise High the REd Lantern for Chinese costumes. (don't
think it got an oscar)

Susan F.
-- 
Oh Noh! Kimonos!
susanf@netwiz.net
http://www.netwiz.net/~susanf
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Date: Fri, 15 Oct 1999 19:25:54 -0700
From: Susan Fatemi <susanf@netwiz.net>
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Subject: Re: H-COST: Japanese hakama patterns
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-Poster: Susan Fatemi <susanf@netwiz.net>

Elisee du Lyonnais wrote:
> 
> -Poster: Elisee du Lyonnais <elisee@sewingcentral.com>
> 
> I carry the Costume Connection pattern.  The hakama does have several
> large pleats stitched onto two belts, one that ties to the front, with an
> added trapezoidal shape in the back, and one that ties to the back.  It
> makes up beautifully and looks comfortable to wear.  The hakama take over
> 4 yards of 60" wide fabric, 4 7/8 in the larger sizes in 45".
> 
> I would be interested in contact information for Round Earth to add them
> to the stock of the shop.

Round Earth is at:  http://www.round-earth.com/

The focus is on hakama for Aikido and other martial arts.
I haven't used the pattern yet, but the instructions are
very good esp. about how to fit different sizes. It's
meant for people who are really going to wear these things
(and jump around in them) so they really have to work.

I didn't have this one when I was making a pair for my
son. I started with the drawing in the theatrical costume
book I can't remember the name of, got the Folkwear pattern,
got catalogues from other martial arts places, watched
ninja movies (to see how they move), etc. But I also
found a *genuine* silk pair in an antique shop and used
them for a pattern. The bands/belts (himo) and back piece
(koshiita) are not sturdy enough for martial arts and I
had some trouble there, also with the pleats.

The next pair is going to be great!

cheers,

Susan F.
-- 
Oh Noh! Kimonos!
susanf@netwiz.net
http://www.netwiz.net/~susanf
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Date: Fri, 15 Oct 1999 22:41:53 -0400
From: Liz /cozit <cozit@home.com>
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Subject: H-COST: side-laced bodices
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-Poster: Liz /cozit <cozit@home.com>



> - -Poster: Danielle Nunn <dnunn@interlog.com>
>
> Does anyone know of the origin of SCA/Ren Fair thing of lacing the side
> (underarm) seams as well as the front?  I've never seen any evidence for it
> in relation to Elizabethan stuff and was wondering if I'm missing something
> obscure and Italian or what?

The simplest answer is that the additional lacing (and the gaps they
create) allow for greater length of wear for those who tend to go up and
down in weight and dress size.

(Of course, I'm almost wishing that was what I had just made...instead
of the Irish dress I just finished...and forgot to re-fit one last time
over the chemise alone.  Laced all the way shut (instead of the 2 1/2
inch gap I planned) it still isn't snug enough...well, when I'm
standing, and remembering my posture sitting down, anyway....I mean to
give any real support/taming.  Thankfully I don't need much..but I've
still got to figure out how to alter it down a couple of sizes.)

-Elisabeth
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Date: Fri, 15 Oct 1999 22:56:53 EDT
Subject: Re: H-COST: movie "inspirations"
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-Poster: AlbertCat@aol.com

In a message dated 10/15/1999 1:24:54 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
ginnaphure@email.women.com writes:

<< I'm partial to the costumes in Resurection >>
 That's RESTORATION. [after the period it takes place in] Designed by James 
Acheson [another designer I like to mention I worked for :-)] He also did 
Dangerous Liaisons & The Last Emperor.
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-Poster: AlbertCat@aol.com

In a message dated 10/15/1999 2:06:54 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
stitchwitch@excite.com writes:

<< Coppola's(sp?) Dracula. >>
EWWWWWWWW!
I hate it! A perfect example of beautiful ideas but a failure because nothing 
is remotely right. The date 1898 is flashed on the screen and the bustles are 
1880. The men are all over the place....even in one costume! And the Klimt 
robe! And the Kabuki wedding dress! Yuk!
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From: Julie Adams <savaskan@sd.znet.com>
Subject: Re: H-COST: side-laced bodices
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-Poster: Julie Adams <savaskan@sd.znet.com>

>> - -Poster: Danielle Nunn <dnunn@interlog.com>
>>
>> Does anyone know of the origin of SCA/Ren Fair thing of lacing the side
>> (underarm) seams as well as the front?  I've never seen any evidence for it
>> in relation to Elizabethan stuff and was wondering if I'm missing something
>> obscure and Italian or what?
There are examples of side laced German Renn gowns, though the lacing was
in lieu of, not in addition to front lacing.

Julie Adams


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Date: Fri, 15 Oct 1999 23:20:20 EDT
Subject: Re: H-COST: movie "inspirations"
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-Poster: AlbertCat@aol.com

In a message dated 10/15/1999 6:53:35 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
gwenvyre@hotmail.com writes:

<< TITANIC gets my vote >>
This has some lovely things in it but I have a prob with it.....
After I saw Wings of the Dove , I realized that Rose should've dress more 
like that. I mean she's supposed to be so unconventional and she dresses in 
the most conventional style of the day. She should be part of that crowd that 
wore the latest Poirot and Fortuni....especially after her trip to Europe. I 
did love that pale green gown you see for about 10 seconds.....with the lace 
tiered skirt. That yellow thing she sees Jack's [awful] sketches in with what 
looks like puffer paint on the shoulders was not as successful.

I hope everyone realizes these are just  MNSHO.....and won't get upset if I 
don't like what they do. Titanic & Dracula both have some lovely, exquisitely 
made things in them.
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Date: Fri, 15 Oct 1999 23:24:12 EDT
Subject: H-COST: Re: wench
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-Poster: Gaelscot@aol.com



Today, "wench" has the connotation of a loose woman, generally a lower-class 
one. But originally it meant any young woman or girl. "Lusty" is another word 
that's had a similar degradation. When Shakespeare called someone a "lusty 
wench," he meant a healthy young woman, nothing pejorative at all. Just to 
clarify things a bit.

Gail

 
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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Fri Oct 15 22:20:16 1999
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From: "K & J Hopkins" <khopkins@cyberhighway.net>
To: <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: H-COST: movie "inspirations"
Date: Fri, 15 Oct 1999 21:43:30 -0600
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-Poster: "K & J Hopkins" <khopkins@cyberhighway.net>

This is hard.   I don't know off-hand which of my favorite costume movies
won awards or not.  I'm not even sure if they are accurate historically,
but here goes anyway

Shakespeare in Love (I marvel at the story every time I see this movie, how
clever)  I have seen it enough, that I have started looking at the people
in the background and they all seem to be dressed so well.

Artemisia - Fabulous Italian.  And yes, you do get to see the underwear.

Titanic - Completely out of my period.  Don't have a clue how accurate, but
beautiful.

Young Bess - Looks like well researched Tudor to me.  For the women anyway.

Ghandi - Yes, that is what I said.  There is a scene when Ghandi is still
in Africa and they are having a meeting (?) I have never been able to
forget all of those incredible turbans.

The Wind and the Lion - The scene where the Marines land and march on the
Palace (?)  Love that uniform.  Brian Keith as Teddy, it doesn't get much
better than that.

Paint Your Wagon, My Fair Lady, The King and I.  I know, I know, Musicals. 
I can't help myself.

Likely these could all be emotional choices, and I am sure that some people
are scratching their heads over most of them.  Oh well...

Kathlene






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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Fri Oct 15 22:26:26 1999
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Date: Fri, 15 Oct 1999 23:38:44 EDT
Subject: Re: H-COST: H-Costume: Ebay Sellers (longish)
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-Poster: M311@aol.com

In a message dated 10/15/99 10:45:04 AM Central Daylight Time, 
carrie@greateralchemy.net writes:

<< BTW, has anyone considered leaving neutral feedback comments on the seller 
& 
 item in question? something like " no clothing ensemble is accurate for all 
of a 500 
 year span. "
  >>

This shouldn't be done in their feedback file.  If you wrote her personally 
that is enough.  A person needs to be careful of what they post in a feedback 
file.  It isn't for comments like that.
What was the url for the garment again?
Kelly
m311@aol.com
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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Fri Oct 15 22:44:27 1999
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From: "The Rogue" <the_rogue@imag.net>
To: <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: H-COST: movie "inspirations" - Madness of King George?
Date: Fri, 15 Oct 1999 21:00:10 -0700
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-Poster: "The Rogue" <the_rogue@imag.net>

Hello!

It's finally Friday, and I can really read the list instead of browsing . .
. . ahhhhhh.

I'd have to say I have two current favorites:  "Ever After" and "The Lion in
Winter".  However, I have a video I haven't watched yet, and that hasn't
been mentioned:  does anyone have any comments about the costuming in the
movie  "The Madness of King George"?

And, just because I'm sentimental, any old big budget Hollywood musical with
fancy dresses!  No matter what era or how accurate!

Zelda



-----Original Message-----
From: K & J Hopkins <khopkins@cyberhighway.net>
To: h-costume@indra.com <h-costume@indra.com>
Date: October 15, 1999 8:36 PM
Subject: Re: H-COST: movie "inspirations"


>
>-Poster: "K & J Hopkins" <khopkins@cyberhighway.net>
>
>This is hard.   I don't know off-hand which of my favorite costume movies
>won awards or not.  I'm not even sure if they are accurate historically,
>but here goes anyway
>
>Shakespeare in Love (I marvel at the story every time I see this movie, how
>clever)  I have seen it enough, that I have started looking at the people
>in the background and they all seem to be dressed so well.
>
>Artemisia - Fabulous Italian.  And yes, you do get to see the underwear.
>
>Titanic - Completely out of my period.  Don't have a clue how accurate, but
>beautiful.
>
>Young Bess - Looks like well researched Tudor to me.  For the women anyway.
>
>Ghandi - Yes, that is what I said.  There is a scene when Ghandi is still
>in Africa and they are having a meeting (?) I have never been able to
>forget all of those incredible turbans.
>
>The Wind and the Lion - The scene where the Marines land and march on the
>Palace (?)  Love that uniform.  Brian Keith as Teddy, it doesn't get much
>better than that.
>
>Paint Your Wagon, My Fair Lady, The King and I.  I know, I know, Musicals.
>I can't help myself.
>
>Likely these could all be emotional choices, and I am sure that some people
>are scratching their heads over most of them.  Oh well...
>
>Kathlene

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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Fri Oct 15 22:59:49 1999
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Date: Fri, 15 Oct 1999 23:12:17 -0500
From: Marc Carlson <marc-carlson@utulsa.edu>
Subject: Re: H-COST: Pourpoints & Houppelands
To: h-costume@indra.com
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-Poster: Marc Carlson <marc-carlson@utulsa.edu>

<Robin Netherton <robin@shell.nightowl.net>>
>Oh, I'm sorry. Out of context my comment is indeed an overstatement. In
> context, though, was responding to someone's query about a particular
> garment: "Is it a houppelande even though it's cut in such-and-so a way?"
> My point is exactly what you also said -- it all depends on your
> definition, and how narrowly or broadly we choose to apply the term.

I'm sorry, I hadn't intended to take your comment out of context, but
merely to condense it to what I saw as the kernel of what you were
saying.

> Within the period, the same word might refer to different things, and
> different words might refer to the same thing, and of course terms changed
> by locale/language as well as time. So beyond a certain core of cases
> in which we *know* the term was used, whether *we* call a particular item
> a houppelande is arbitrary, and our use of the term is meaningful only if
> all the people in our conversation understand exactly how we're defining
> "houppelande."

The problem is that "arbitrary", to me, implies that there's no point 
in trying to determine what terms were being used when, since people
are just going to use them hither thither today.  And that's what I
was
looking at.  Personally, I'd like to hammer down what was meant by
such and such a term at a set date (it's a dream, but hey, if you set
goals you can easily meet, you set them too low).

I apologize if that was not your intent.
>That doesn't mean none of us know what we're talking about (and Marc's
>awe-inspiring discussion of "doublet" shows that some of us know more 
>than others -- I couldn't have produced that much information)...

Not to sound self-denegrating, but it's what I do.

> For instance, I've noticed that some costumers today use the term
> "cotehardie" to mean just about any fitted dress of 14th-15th century
> Europe...

I'll be honest, I've heard it (and the other one "houpelande") so many
different ways, I have no idea what's right.  I *am* pretty sure that
calling any of the Herjolfsnes garments "cote-hardies" is wrong, but
still people do it.

>That doesn't mean no one knows how the term "cotehardie" might have 
>been used in the period; we have some evidence for its use, at various 
>times and places. But it does mean our application of the term today is 
>rather arbitrary -- can we use it for a Bohemian dress that looks 
>identical to a French one, even though the Bohemians would not have 
>used the same term?

Can we? Sure? Should we?  Should I call an Elizabethan bumroll a
bustle?  It does the same thing.  In modern anthropology, native
americans traditionally wear essentially two different sorts of 
footwear - moccasins and opankes.  That means that Lakota have their
shoes referred to by an Algonkian term - regardless of what it was
made like, and Apaches a term that is Serbian.  All because it's an
easy shorthand.  That also is why many people seem to think that
European medieval shoes are "moccasins", so moccasins wind up being
used as
"medieval shoes", when they aren't.

I do agree (obviously) it's something that we need to be careful
about, and perhaps we can work to ameliorate the difficulty a bit.

marc
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From: "K & J Hopkins" <khopkins@cyberhighway.net>
To: <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: H-COST: movie "inspirations" - Madness of King George?
Date: Fri, 15 Oct 1999 22:25:35 -0600
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-Poster: "K & J Hopkins" <khopkins@cyberhighway.net>

Orlando! How could I have forgotten Orlando!!!

Amadeus, Restoration, Dangerous Liaisons (hated the movie, loved the
costumes) Blade Runner, The Ghost and the Darkness, El Cid (I have always
coveted that one mantle(?) of black and silver that the Cid wears over his
armor.  And if I ever get the chance to wear a coronet, I want the thin one
with all the pearls, classy), Cannery Row, Ragtime, Boogie Nights,
Pleasantville...

OK, I will stop now and get my butt to bed.

Wait, wait!  The Ice Storm.

Kathlene
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From: "maureen+ brown" <edolen@excite.com>
To: h-costume@indra.com
Subject: Re: H-COST: H-Costume: Ebay Sellers (longish)
Message-Id: <940048254.12047.846@excite.com>
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-Poster: "maureen+ brown" <edolen@excite.com>

It was my understanding that you're only allowed to leave comments if you're
involved in the transaction;  i.e., you've successfully bid on item and
afterwards you can comment on the seller..please correct me if I'm wrong.

   --Maureen

> 
> BTW, has anyone considered leaving neutral feedback comments on the seller
& 
> item in question? something like " no clothing ensemble is accurate for
all of a 500 
> year span. "
> 
> then bidders are warned, if they bother to check feedback
> 
> Carrie





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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Sat Oct 16 00:12:21 1999
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Date: Sat, 16 Oct 1999 00:36:24 -0500 (CDT)
From: Robin Netherton <robin@shell.nightowl.net>
To: h-costume@indra.com
Subject: Re: H-COST: Pourpoints & Houppelands
In-Reply-To: <3807FB21.C354DEC9@utulsa.edu>
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-Poster: Robin Netherton <robin@shell.nightowl.net>


<continuing the public conversation with Marc..>

I think we basically agree, though we're coming at the same points from
different directions.

Marc:

> The problem is that "arbitrary", to me, implies that there's no point in
> trying to determine what terms were being used when, since people are
> just going to use them hither thither today.  And that's what I was
> looking at.  Personally, I'd like to hammer down what was meant by such
> and such a term at a set date (it's a dream, but hey, if you set goals
> you can easily meet, you set them too low). 
> 
> I apologize if that was not your intent.

Thanks -- it certainly wasn't my intent to imply that! Maybe I need a
better term than "arbitrary." Maybe "random"? "generic"?

I think part of the confusion is that I was referring not to the accurate
understanding of historic terms as used by the people who invented them.
You and I are in complete agreement about the value (and crying need) for
that kind of scholarship, and I am in great debt to you and others like
you who can get down to the exact references and sort them out -- so that
I can use that knowledge in my own work.

But I was referring to modern peoples' adoption of various medieval terms
to mean something specific and immutable, and (almost always) to apply to
a broader place and time than the term originally meant. This actually
tends to blur the efforts of people who are trying to "hammer down" the
details of exactly what term was used when and by whom, because once a
term has been misapplied to cover too broad an area (like calling the
Greenland gown a "cotehardie") it can be next to impossible to re-train
people to use it another way. (If it's been used that way in a well-read
costume book, it's even harder to reclaim exact use.) 

My own preference is to use the historic term as accurately as possible,
which usually means pretty narrowly. But I have to figure that when I talk
to a roomful of people (either a classroom or a "virtual room" like this
list), there will be a very few people who know and understand the
historic use of particular terms (like Marc), and other people who apply
the same terms more generically -- or who have all read different costume
books and have different definitions of the same term, or different terms
to hang on the same garment. In general, I find it safest to use a modern
descriptive -- ergo, "14th-century fitted underdress" or whatever -- to
avoid confusion. 

The arbitrariness comes in any attempt to choose a single term when many
might do -- and when there is no single historical term that is broad
enough. If I'm talking about a style that crossed language divisions, I
might have a choice of accurate terms (kirtle, tunica, gunna, etc.) -- and
in choosing one to stand for all, and in giving it a fixed definition
(when historically it might have been mutable over time), I would be
making an arbitrary choice.  So I will write/say something like this: "For
the purposes of this paper, we will call this underlayer a `chemise,' even
though the people who actually wore it might have called it by any of the
following names..."  which strikes me as more honest than the many books
that declare "In the middle ages, women wore an underlayer called a
chemise, a basic garment called a kirtle, and an overlayer called a
surcote" -- leading some readers to believe that these terms were standard
and fixed.

> Should I call an Elizabethan bumroll a bustle?  It does the same thing. 

And we do something similar when we call an Elizabethan upper-body shaper
a "corset." I think it's probably too late to rescue *that* term from
generic use.

> I do agree (obviously) it's something that we need to be careful
> about, and perhaps we can work to ameliorate the difficulty a bit.

And we definitely agree there.

--Robin



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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Sat Oct 16 00:49:47 1999
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Date: Fri, 15 Oct 1999 23:01:02 -0700
To: h-costume@indra.com
From: "Carol J. Bell Cannon" <cjcannon@greymists.com>
Subject: Re: H-COST: H-Costume: Ebay Sellers (longish)
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-Poster: "Carol J. Bell Cannon" <cjcannon@greymists.com>

At 09:30 PM 10/15/1999, "maureen+ brown" <edolen@excite.com> wrote: It was
my understanding that you're only allowed to leave comments if you're
involved in the transaction;  i.e., you've successfully bid on item and
afterwards you can comment on the seller..please correct me if I'm wrong.
           I don't know if that's true, but imnsho [and I'm not expecting
anyone else to agree], it would be unethical for me to post comments on
something I was not going to bid on, unless the seller and I had a negative
history together and I stated that this was only my experience, and that
that experience had caused me to decide not to transact business with that
seller again.  For me to do this, I would have to be very upset with the
seller--for example--I had paid for an item, but never rec'd it.  To write
the seller directly with my thoughts/concerns regarding the description of
the item would be fine.   Carol
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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Sat Oct 16 00:53:03 1999
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From: Charlene Charette <charlene@flash.net>
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Subject: Re: H-COST: Needlework resources
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-Poster: Charlene Charette <charlene@flash.net>

MzScahlett@aol.com wrote:

> I promised a friend that I'd remember to post and ask for the addresses of
> any needlework lists, or urls to any good needlework sites for her.
>
> I forgot.  Anyone got a favorite they'd recommend?
>

OK, I'd say that's an opening for a plug.  *G*

You can subscribe to the historical needlework list by sending the message
'subscribe h-needlework' to majordomo@ansteorra.org.

Please note, this list is hosted on an SCA machine but is open to anyone and
covers all time periods.

--Charlene

--
If you give a man a fish, he will eat for a day.  If you give a man a stick of
TNT, there will be little unidentifiable fish parts all over the village. --
Jack Handy


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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Sat Oct 16 01:13:53 1999
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From: "Hope H. Dunlap" <hhdunlap@msn.com>
To: <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: RE: H-COST: Japanese hakama patterns
Date: Sat, 16 Oct 1999 02:19:42 -0400
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-Poster: "Hope H. Dunlap" <hhdunlap@msn.com>

Could you share your formula for hakama with us so we could
sew our own for our families??
Would be grateful!
Hope H. Dunlap



> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-h-costume@indra.com
[mailto:owner-h-costume@indra.com]On
> Behalf Of Janice Dallas
> Sent: Friday, October 15, 1999 10:57 AM
> To: h-costume@indra.com
> Subject: Re: H-COST: Japanese hakama patterns
>
>
> -Poster: Janice Dallas <janicedals@mediaone.net>
>
> I used the Folkwear Pattern for a Production of "The Mikado".
>  It isn't
> really a "pattern", but a set of instructions on how to draft it for
> various sizes.  My husband reduced it to a formula so we
> could just put
> the body measurements into the computer and it came up with
> the correct
> distances between points for each person.  Since they varied
> from waist
> 24" to 63" and there were about 20 pants to make, this was helpful.
> Instructions were simple enough for my "mixed bag" of
> volunteer sewers.
> --
> Janice Dallas
> JaniceDals@MediaOne.net
> "Just so, the girl has beauty, virtue, wit..."
>


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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Sat Oct 16 01:16:38 1999
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Date: Fri, 15 Oct 1999 23:31:55 -0700
From: Carolyn Richardson <benrumson@worldnet.att.net>
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-Poster: Carolyn Richardson <benrumson@worldnet.att.net>

The Rogue wrote:

> I'd have to say I have two current favorites:  "Ever After" and "The Lion in
> Winter".  However, I have a video I haven't watched yet, and that hasn't
> been mentioned:  does anyone have any comments about the costuming in the
> movie  "The Madness of King George"?

I would kill for the red, white and blue outfit Queen Charlotte is
wearing near the end of the movie.  Costumes in general in this movie
looked pretty good to me.

Carolyn
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-Poster: Carolyn Richardson <benrumson@worldnet.att.net>

Julie Adams wrote:
> 
> -Poster: Julie Adams <savaskan@sd.znet.com>
> 
> >> - -Poster: Danielle Nunn <dnunn@interlog.com>
> >>
> >> Does anyone know of the origin of SCA/Ren Fair thing of lacing the side
> >> (underarm) seams as well as the front?  I've never seen any evidence for it
> >> in relation to Elizabethan stuff and was wondering if I'm missing something
> >> obscure and Italian or what?
> There are examples of side laced German Renn gowns, though the lacing was
> in lieu of, not in addition to front lacing.

Ditto on the Italians.  

Carolyn
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Date: Sat, 16 Oct 1999 09:47:07 -0700
From: Dawn <dawn.wood1@virgin.net>
Organization: ages of elegance (http://www.ageofelegance.dabsol.co.uk)
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Subject: Re: H-COST: movie "inspirations" - Madness of King George?
References: <012d01bf178a$f2d60060$03000004@van1282> <38081BDB.795B6E10@worldnet.att.net>
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-Poster: Dawn <dawn.wood1@virgin.net>

Carolyn Richardson wrote:
> 
> -Poster: Carolyn Richardson <benrumson@worldnet.att.net>
> 
> The Rogue wrote:
> 
> > I'd have to say I have two current favorites:  "Ever After" and "The Lion in
> > Winter".  However, I have a video I haven't watched yet, and that hasn't
> > been mentioned:  does anyone have any comments about the costuming in the
> > movie  "The Madness of King George"?
> 
> I would kill for the red, white and blue outfit Queen Charlotte is
> wearing near the end of the movie.  Costumes in general in this movie
> looked pretty good to me.

I quite agree. This is my dressing up period and I keep trying to think
of an excuse to make it. It's a good example of women wearing military
fashion in this period.

My favourites Dangerous Liasons the best costumed opening sequence,
Elizabeth, gone with the wind, when you stop and think there really are
just too many to list. 
Just one thing while we're on this subject, we've just got the new
adventures of robin Hood on terrestrial tv over here, can anyone let me
have a manuscript or painting reference for babe marions little red
leather number. A perfect example of a designers costume fantasy. I love
it!!

Dawn 
> 
> Carolyn

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From: Carrie Veenstra <carrie@greateralchemy.net>
To: "'h-costume@indra.com'" <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: RE: H-COST: movie "inspirations"
Date: Sat, 16 Oct 1999 07:40:46 -0500
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"Dangerous Beauty", though accuracy checking is far beyond my skill.

Carrie 
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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Sat Oct 16 09:13:20 1999
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From: Carrie Veenstra <carrie@greateralchemy.net>
To: "h-costume@indra.com" <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: H-COST: H-cost: Ebay seller
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-Poster: Carrie Veenstra <carrie@greateralchemy.net>


Re:  leaving neutral feedback


I agree, the *best* course of action would be to engage 
the seller in an email conversation.  

the Ebay feedback system currently allows any registered 
user to leave feedback on any other registered user, referencing 
a specific auction or independently of any specific auction. You 
do not have to be engaged in an auction with the person 
presently or in the past. The ratings system only counts (1) for 
feedback left by a unique user (you could leave  hundreds of 
positive feedback items for your friend, you would only influence 
their rating once).  The system also requires you to wait (I'm not 
certain how long)  before leaving additional feedback for the same 
user.  A feedback item left with a neutral flag does not impact 
the user's overall rating.  

As in posting auctions & sending email to a mailing list or other public 
forum, one should check one's attitude, double check one's wording, 
and be willing to claim every word before leaving a feedback message 
of positive, negative or neutral value.

Carrie
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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Sat Oct 16 09:14:07 1999
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From: "K & J Hopkins" <khopkins@cyberhighway.net>
To: <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: H-COST: side-laced bodices
Date: Sat, 16 Oct 1999 08:35:54 -0600
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-Poster: "K & J Hopkins" <khopkins@cyberhighway.net>

> > >> Does anyone know of the origin of SCA/Ren Fair thing of lacing the
side
> > >> (underarm) seams as well as the front?  

Not only the 'side' of the garment, directly under the arms, but the 'side
back' also, if I am not mistaken.  So the back of the bodice would be in
three or four pieces.  But, now that I am looking at Orazio Gentileschi's,
The Lute Player,  I see that there does not appear to be a side seam at
all!

Kathlene

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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Sat Oct 16 11:08:36 1999
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From: rio@austin.rr.com (StrangeGirl)
To: h-costume@indra.com
Subject: Re: H-COST: movie "inspirations"
Date: Sat, 16 Oct 1999 16:18:27 GMT
Organization: The Corner of my Desk
Message-ID: <380fa4a8.290156989@smtp-server.austin.rr.com>
References: <940009185.16407.133@excite.com>
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-Poster: rio@austin.rr.com (StrangeGirl)

On Fri, 15 Oct 1999 10:39:45 PDT, the following was written in this
electric book by "StitchWitch" <stitchwitch@excite.com>:

>I don't know about the level of accuracy for this one, but it rates pretty
>high on the inspiration side: Coppola's(sp?) Dracula. I loved nearly every
>one of the costumes, even the odd ones worn by Lucy. (Though I'm not sure
>I'd go for the lace thing around my neck that she was buried in. Is that
>remotely period for anywhen?)

That whole outfit was inspired by a Klimt painting, and he's period
(to the 1890's), but extremely stylized. His work was a big stylistic
influence on the whole film, even the posters and ads. 

Hpoe this answered your question!

margery
"Do you have any files?"
"We're the government, of course we have files."
Millenium
{*to reply take spambegone from my reply-to address*}
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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Sat Oct 16 12:12:43 1999
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Date: Sat, 16 Oct 1999 10:25:43 -0700
From: Lavolta Press <lavolta@best.com>
Organization: Lavolta Press
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-Poster: Lavolta Press <lavolta@best.com>



>
>
> the Ebay feedback system currently allows any registered
> user to leave feedback on any other registered user, referencing
> a specific auction or independently of any specific auction. You
> do not have to be engaged in an auction with the person
> presently or in the past. The ratings system only counts (1) for
> feedback left by a unique user (you could leave  hundreds of
> positive feedback items for your friend, you would only influence
> their rating once).  The system also requires you to wait (I'm not
> certain how long)  before leaving additional feedback for the same
> user.  A feedback item left with a neutral flag does not impact
> the user's overall rating.
>
> As in posting auctions & sending email to a mailing list or other public
> forum, one should check one's attitude, double check one's wording,
> and be willing to claim every word before leaving a feedback message
> of positive, negative or neutral value.

I've bought on ebay for a long time. And I've read a lot of feedback on
other people's transactions.  Yes, a greal deal of merchandise on ebay is
misdated or otherwise misdescribed. When sellers range from amateurs
conducting on-line yard sales, through professional dealers dumping
merchandise that didn't sell elsewhere, to professionals who consistently
sell accurately described, quality merchandise, that's what you'd expect.
Furthermore, sellers and buyers can be honest, prompt, and pleasant to deal
with; or sometimes the reverse.

However, as I understand ebay's policies, feedback is meant to reflect your
_own_ experiences _doing business with_ with that seller, buyer, or bidder
_at ebay's auctions_.  I don't think I've ever seen feedback left on an item
description by someone who did not bid or sell at that auction.  Certainly,
ebay tries to prevent "feedback bombing," which is what they call feedback
left by either enemies or friends of the ebay member to damage or inflate
that member's business reputation.  I have seen feedback bombing expressly
forbidden in ebay policies, they reserve the right to edit the feedback file
in such cases, and I have seen such edited files.  I think the members of an
unrelated mailing list getting together to leave feedback for an ebay seller
they have never (as far as I know) done business with, would be classified
as feedback bombing.

Frankly, what _are_ people's motives here?  I really don't believe, whether
the feedback is presented politely/privately or not,  that "education" is
one of them.

Fran


---------------------------------------------
Visit our web pages!
Books on historic costume and vintage clothes
http://www.best.com/~lavolta/index.htm
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http://www.best.com/~lavolta/dance/index.htm


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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Sat Oct 16 12:18:40 1999
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Date: Sat, 16 Oct 1999 13:32:38 EDT
Subject: Re: H-COST: movie "inspirations" - Madness of King George?
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-Poster: AliaClaire@aol.com

In a message dated 10/16/99 5:34:40 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
dawn.wood1@virgin.net writes:

<< My favourites Dangerous Liasons the best costumed opening sequence,
 Elizabeth, gone with the wind, when you stop and think there really are
 just too many to list.  >>

I just have to be picky...my friends will never watch GWTW with me again. The 
costumes in this movie have some, slight, sence of being 
correct...well...they wore hoops, at least...but mostly they are SO off, as 
is the hair. Now, some of Melly's dresses are much closer, but at least 
towards the end too young for her.

Not to say I don't like the movie. Vivianne Leight and Olivia DeHavellend (or 
however you spell that) are simply fabulous.

My favorite movies...Ever After, Pleasentville, Emma, Elizabeth, Shakespeare 
in Love, Austin Powers (seriously!), Casablanca...probably more I can't think 
of.

I also saw Midsummer's Night Dream at the Stradsford Frestival in Canada last 
weekend. Fabulous production, and the fairies were beautiful. I wanted to 
take Puck home with me.

-Alison Stacy
AliaClaire@aol.com
acstacy@cc.owu.edu
Delaware, Ohio
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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Sat Oct 16 13:01:45 1999
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Subject: Re: H-COST: H-Costume: Ebay Sellers (longish)
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-Poster: M311@aol.com

>From the feedback forum:  The Feedback Rating system is easy. You receive: 
           +1 point for each positive comment 
           0 points for each neutral comment 
           -1 point for each negative comment (Negative comments can only be 
left by the winning high bidder and seller in an auction. Also, if a comment 
is not about an eBay transaction, it is not counted) 
You can leave multiple comments in someone's Feedback Profile, but they'll 
only count once (+1). This makes the system fair. No one person can "tip the 
scales" in either feedback direction, positive or negative. 

 Q.Can any bidder leave feedback about a specific auction or just the
    winning bidder?
 A. Only the seller and successful bidder (one for a regular auction, several 
for a Dutch Auction) can leave transaction-related feedback about a specific 
buy or sell transaction. 

You are responsible for your own words. 
Your comments will be attributed with your name and  the date. eBay cannot 
take
responsibility for the commentsyou post here, and you should be careful about 
makingcomments that could be libelous or slanderous. To be safe, make only 
factual,emotionless comments.  Contact your attorney if you have any doubts. 
Once left,Feedback cannot be retracted or edited by you or by eBay.  Please 
try to resolve any disputes with the other party before publicly declaring a 
complaint. 

Kelly
m311@aol.com
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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Sat Oct 16 14:03:08 1999
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Date: Sat, 16 Oct 1999 12:12:43 -0700
From: "Ginnaphure Jayne Fayrebanke" <ginnaphure@email.women.com>
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-Poster: "Ginnaphure Jayne Fayrebanke" <ginnaphure@email.women.com>

Thanks, after I typed it and sent it I thought, Oh damn, that's restoration wasn't it...? sorry about that
---
Ever Yours,
Ginnaphure

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
ICQ# 41340093
AIM: Ginnaphure


"Last time we mixed politics with religion, people got burned at the stake." 




On Fri, 15 Oct 1999 22:56:53   AlbertCat wrote:
>
>-Poster: AlbertCat@aol.com
>
>In a message dated 10/15/1999 1:24:54 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
>ginnaphure@email.women.com writes:
>
><< I'm partial to the costumes in Resurection >>
> That's RESTORATION. [after the period it takes place in] Designed by James 
>Acheson [another designer I like to mention I worked for :-)] He also did 
>Dangerous Liaisons & The Last Emperor.
>


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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Sat Oct 16 14:10:44 1999
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To: Costume list <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Karalee Larsen Pugmire <Francesca.da.Bari@usa.net>
Subject: H-COST: Period Patterns
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-Poster: Karalee Larsen Pugmire <Francesca.da.Bari@usa.net>

I have followed the discussions on this list concerning the Simplicity
Patterns with interest. You've noted the modern cuting styles and over
simplified construction and modern shortcuts. May I turn the direction of
your critism to Period Patterns?

I am particularly intersted in the late style tunics (1200's) in Pattern
#16. I am really a novice at period cutting styles. I've looked at the web
sites and books that show line drawins of archeological finds, I've even
tried using these cutting styles in clothes for my daughter's barbies.
Though the clothes look really good on the dolls, I'm a little intimidated
about trying to cut into a peice of fabric that has cost more than I had a
right to spend. (We are at the struggling, but have to make clothes and
armor stage.)

The other day when I was looking at a suggested web site I saw this pattern
by Period Patterns and wondered what you all think of them. They are too
expensive for me to just buy one and see. Is it a good step from the
Simplicity type pattern toward blindly cutting into a peice of $10 a yard
fabric and knowing it's going to look good and that I won't be giving it
away a year later because I hate the way it fits and the fact that it's
really not that period?

Francesca da Bari
Cote du Ciel (Logan, Utah)
Francesca.da.Bari


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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Sat Oct 16 15:11:52 1999
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Date: Sat, 16 Oct 1999 20:35:06 -0700
From: Dawn <dawn.wood1@virgin.net>
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-Poster: Dawn <dawn.wood1@virgin.net>

AliaClaire@aol.com wrote:
> 
> -Poster: AliaClaire@aol.com
> 
> In a message dated 10/16/99 5:34:40 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
> dawn.wood1@virgin.net writes:
> 
> << My favourites Dangerous Liasons the best costumed opening sequence,
>  Elizabeth, gone with the wind, when you stop and think there really are
>  just too many to list.  >>
> 
> I just have to be picky...my friends will never watch GWTW with me again. The
> costumes in this movie have some, slight, sence of being
> correct...well...they wore hoops, at least...but mostly they are SO off, as
> is the hair. 
They are as accurate as most films and are for the most part gorgeous

I've just remembered Amadeus. and if we're talking inspiration the film
that inspired me to become a costume proffessional was wait for
it............
John Wayne's Genghis Kahn. I figured if they could get away with it so
could I and decided that was what I wanted to do with my life. So young
so impressionable

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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Sat Oct 16 15:55:01 1999
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-Poster: Charlene Charette <charlene@flash.net>

We have a high-persona event coming up.  It's geographically and
temporally far from my usual persona.  For this event I'll be a late
15th C Italian (Venice) fruitseller (preferably female).  Any pointers
to appropriate clothing?

Thanks,
--Charlene

--
If you give a man a fish, he will eat for a day.  If you give a man a
stick of TNT, there will be little unidentifiable fish parts all over
the village. -- Jack Handy


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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Sat Oct 16 16:00:39 1999
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Subject: Re: H-COST: Period Patterns
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-Poster: AnnBWass@aol.com

Francesca,
I can't help you on the particular patterns you are interested in--my 
interest is another time period and I make my own patterns.  But, always try 
patterns out in cheap fabric first.  If muslin is too expensive for you, go 
to a thrift store and get some second-hand sheets to cut up.
Ann Wass
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-Poster: Margo Anderson <margo@directcon.net>


>The other day when I was looking at a suggested web site I saw this pattern
>by Period Patterns and wondered what you all think of them. They are too
>expensive for me to just buy one and see. Is it a good step from the
>Simplicity type pattern toward blindly cutting into a peice of $10 a yard
>fabric and knowing it's going to look good and that I won't be giving it
>away a year later because I hate the way it fits and the fact that it's
>really not that period?
>

I've never actually made up a Period Pattern, but I've heard they tend to
have a lot of problems with fit, and that the directions can be confusing.  

However, if you're worried about it not fitting well and wasting your
expensive fabric, why not do what the professionals do, and make a muslin
first?  Just make the pattern up in an inexpensive fabric, like the $.99
muslin from JoAnne's .  You can leave out facings, hems, etc, to test for fit. 

If you like the fit, make it up in your good fabric.  You can also finish
the muslin one and use it for an undertunic, sleep shirt, or hot
weather/messy job garb.  

Margo


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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Sat Oct 16 16:29:56 1999
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Subject: H-COST: Re: movie inspirations
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-Poster: Gaelscot@aol.com



There are so many! I loved the costumes in "The Scarlet Letter," although the 
movie stunk. "Dangerous Liaisons" was good but "Valmont" (same book, same 
movie release time, no fanfare) was better. Also a better movie, IMHO 
(although both had different endings from the book). "Age of Innocence." The 
old "Three Musketeers" movies were probably my original impetus for historic 
costuming, and I still love them. I could go on and on. I love "Thoroughly 
Modern Millie" for movie musical costumes. "Singing in the Rain" has nice 
costumes too, especially the movie Baroque costumes. And I love lots of the 
old Hollywood King Arthur ones, which often have the right look if the wrong 
fabrics and construction. Like "Robin Hood" and "The Court Jester." They look 
more like the real thing than most of the new Hollywood medieval stuff, which 
usually just looks stupid. IMHO, of course. Don't get me started on the Kevin 
Costner "Robin Hood," or the Disney "Three Musketeers," which are so bad that 
the bad costumes look good. Olivia de Havelland looks great in a wimple, even 
if the wimple isn't right! When I was young, that's what I wanted to look 
like. Heck, that's STILL what I want to look like!

Gail
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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Sat Oct 16 20:57:09 1999
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From: "Kels" <smadsen@primenet.com>
To: "Historical Costume List" <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: H-COST: Favorite Costuming in Movies
Date: Sat, 16 Oct 1999 17:18:02 -0700
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-Poster: "Kels" <smadsen@primenet.com>

Hi all--

One of my favorites is Rosencrantz and Guildenstern Are Dead, by the same
writer/director as Shakespeare in Love, for those of you who don't know.  I
read the play when I was a teenager, and it was made even better in the
movie.  Stoppard had a chance to use about twenty more years of writing
experience to re-do it as a movie.  I love that movie, and I want to make
R&G's costumes, the Player King's and Hamlet's.  In Orlando I want to do
that black doublet and outfit s/he's in for the Elizabethan section.  Black
Adder ll's black leather outfit as well.

Kels

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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Sat Oct 16 20:57:35 1999
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From: "The Rogue" <the_rogue@imag.net>
To: <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: H-COST: Re: movie inspirations - I don't remember the name of it!
Date: Sat, 16 Oct 1999 16:31:40 -0700
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-Poster: "The Rogue" <the_rogue@imag.net>

OH, I just remembered one that I saw a while back - it was from the 50's,
I'd guess, about Henry VIII's sister Mary (Margaret?).  It was on twice, and
each time I only caught the last half hour, so I can't say much about it
other than the sister wound up marrying the dashing young man, who had an
actually not bad rapier fight sequence late in the show.  It had the word
"Rose" (?) in the title, something like The (blank) and the Rose?

Anyhow, I loved the costumes in it, so much so that I paid attention to
nothing else!!  How accurate they were, I don't know, but they looked fairly
close (but I'm no expert).

Zelda
-----Original Message-----
From: Gaelscot@aol.com <Gaelscot@aol.com>
To: h-costume-digest@indra.com <h-costume-digest@indra.com>
Date: October 16, 1999 2:45 PM
Subject: H-COST: Re: movie inspirations


>
>-Poster: Gaelscot@aol.com
>
>
>
>There are so many! I loved the costumes in "The Scarlet Letter," although the
>movie stunk. "Dangerous Liaisons" was good but "Valmont" (same book, same
>movie release time, no fanfare) was better. Also a better movie, IMHO
>(although both had different endings from the book). "Age of Innocence." The
>old "Three Musketeers" movies were probably my original impetus for historic
>costuming, and I still love them. I could go on and on. I love "Thoroughly
>Modern Millie" for movie musical costumes. "Singing in the Rain" has nice
>costumes too, especially the movie Baroque costumes. And I love lots of the
>old Hollywood King Arthur ones, which often have the right look if the wrong
>fabrics and construction. Like "Robin Hood" and "The Court Jester." They look
>more like the real thing than most of the new Hollywood medieval stuff, which
>usually just looks stupid. IMHO, of course. Don't get me started on the Kevin
>Costner "Robin Hood," or the Disney "Three Musketeers," which are so bad that
>the bad costumes look good. Olivia de Havelland looks great in a wimple, even
>if the wimple isn't right! When I was young, that's what I wanted to look
>like. Heck, that's STILL what I want to look like!
>
>Gail

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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Sat Oct 16 20:57:33 1999
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Date: Sat, 16 Oct 1999 18:18:44 -0700
From: Maleah <maleah@swbell.net>
Subject: Re: H-COST: side-laced bodices
To: h-costume@indra.com
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-Poster: Maleah <maleah@swbell.net>

The lacing on the side back are directly attributable to a period garment
belonging to Eleanora of Toledo in which she was buried. This bodice is
featured as one of the examples in Janet Arnold's "Patterns of Fashion
c.1560-1620" pgs 40-41, plates 286, 288-291. A more detailed description is
with the penciled sketch on pages 102-104. Very good to help you see exactly
how it all fits. I have several bodices made from this pattern and they work
beautifully. Hope this helps.

Maleah
maleah@swbell.net
----- Original Message -----
From: K & J Hopkins <khopkins@cyberhighway.net>
To: <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Saturday, October 16, 1999 7:35 AM
Subject: Re: H-COST: side-laced bodices


>
> -Poster: "K & J Hopkins" <khopkins@cyberhighway.net>
>
> > > >> Does anyone know of the origin of SCA/Ren Fair thing of lacing the
> side
> > > >> (underarm) seams as well as the front?
>
> Not only the 'side' of the garment, directly under the arms, but the 'side
> back' also, if I am not mistaken.  So the back of the bodice would be in
> three or four pieces.  But, now that I am looking at Orazio Gentileschi's,
> The Lute Player,  I see that there does not appear to be a side seam at
> all!
>
> Kathlene
>
>

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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Sat Oct 16 20:57:45 1999
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From: The Purple Elephant <csmart@physics.adelaide.edu.au>
To: h-costume@indra.com
Subject: Re: H-COST: side-laced bodices
In-Reply-To: <199910161427.IAA06231@net.indra.com>
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-Poster: The Purple Elephant <csmart@physics.adelaide.edu.au>

On Sat, 16 Oct 1999, K & J Hopkins wrote:

> 
> -Poster: "K & J Hopkins" <khopkins@cyberhighway.net>
> 
> > > >> Does anyone know of the origin of SCA/Ren Fair thing of lacing the
> side
> > > >> (underarm) seams as well as the front?  
> 
> Not only the 'side' of the garment, directly under the arms, but the 'side
> back' also, if I am not mistaken.  So the back of the bodice would be in
> three or four pieces.  But, now that I am looking at Orazio Gentileschi's,
> The Lute Player,  I see that there does not appear to be a side seam at
> all!
> 
Eleanor of Toledo's burial gown was laced down the side backs, but again
only down there, not also down the front/back/sides.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Claire F. Clarke       "What is this world if, full of care, 
Physicist, writer,     We have no time to stand and stare?"
and non environmentally                     Robert Louis Stevenson
friendly substance.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Sat Oct 16 20:57:51 1999
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From: Kat & Kent <kdyer@home.com>
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-Poster: Kat & Kent <kdyer@home.com>

Period Patterns #16 is the one that Mistress Nerak makes her tunics for
the men of House Ladyhall out of... so far as I know, it isn't hard to
work with so long as you follow her rules... 1) never, ever, ever cut
the pattern pieces... make new ones out of butcher paper (or newsprint
or cut open brown bags etc) 2) look at the pictures and don't read the
instructions (this particular pattern is fairly easy to put together)
and 3) make a muslin pattern first.

Kat
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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Sat Oct 16 21:06:40 1999
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Date: Sat, 16 Oct 1999 21:22:31 -0700
From: Maleah <maleah@swbell.net>
Subject: Re: H-COST: Re: movie inspirations - I don't remember the name of it!
To: h-costume@indra.com
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-Poster: Maleah <maleah@swbell.net>

I believe you are referring to the movie "The Sword and the Rose" a Disney
production starring Glynis Johns (the same one who is in Court Jester with
Danny Kaye) as Mary Tudor, and Richard Todd as Charles Brandon. She is Henry
VIII's sister who secretly marries Charles Brandon after her husband the
King of France dies. I can't find the release date on my copy of the video
but I believe it was about the same time frame as the "Court Jester." The
men's costumes are gorgeous and for the most part at least close to accurate
but the women's garb leaves something to be desired. Still entertaining none
the less..... You should be able to purchase a copy almost anywhere. At
least I've seen it in our local Wal-Mart lately.
     FYI Margaret Henry's other sister married the Scottish King and is Mary
Queen of Scots paternal grandmother hence her claim to the English throne.
And we all know what happened from there.

Maleah
maleah@swbell.net


----- Original Message -----
From: The Rogue <the_rogue@imag.net>
To: <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Saturday, October 16, 1999 4:31 PM
Subject: Re: H-COST: Re: movie inspirations - I don't remember the name of
it!


>
> -Poster: "The Rogue" <the_rogue@imag.net>
>
> OH, I just remembered one that I saw a while back - it was from the 50's,
> I'd guess, about Henry VIII's sister Mary (Margaret?).  It was on twice,
and
> each time I only caught the last half hour, so I can't say much about it
> other than the sister wound up marrying the dashing young man, who had an
> actually not bad rapier fight sequence late in the show.  It had the word
> "Rose" (?) in the title, something like The (blank) and the Rose?
>
> Anyhow, I loved the costumes in it, so much so that I paid attention to
> nothing else!!  How accurate they were, I don't know, but they looked
fairly
> close (but I'm no expert).
>
> Zelda
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Gaelscot@aol.com <Gaelscot@aol.com>
> To: h-costume-digest@indra.com <h-costume-digest@indra.com>
> Date: October 16, 1999 2:45 PM
> Subject: H-COST: Re: movie inspirations
>
>
> >-Poster: Gaelscot@aol.com
> >
> >There are so many! I loved the costumes in "The Scarlet Letter," although the
> >movie stunk. "Dangerous Liaisons" was good but "Valmont" (same book, same
> >movie release time, no fanfare) was better. Also a better movie, IMHO
> >(although both had different endings from the book). "Age of Innocence." The
> >old "Three Musketeers" movies were probably my original impetus for historic
> >costuming, and I still love them. I could go on and on. I love "Thoroughly
> >Modern Millie" for movie musical costumes. "Singing in the Rain" has nice
> >costumes too, especially the movie Baroque costumes. And I love lots of the
> >old Hollywood King Arthur ones, which often have the right look if the wrong
> >fabrics and construction. Like "Robin Hood" and "The Court Jester." They look
> >more like the real thing than most of the new Hollywood medieval stuff, which
> >usually just looks stupid. IMHO, of course. Don't get me started on the Kevin
> >Costner "Robin Hood," or the Disney "Three Musketeers," which are so bad that
> >the bad costumes look good. Olivia de Havelland looks great in a wimple, even
> >if the wimple isn't right! When I was young, that's what I wanted to look
> >like. Heck, that's STILL what I want to look like!
> >
> >Gail
>
>

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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Sat Oct 16 21:18:30 1999
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From: Karalee Larsen Pugmire <Francesca.da.Bari@usa.net>
Subject: Re: H-COST: Period Patterns
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-Poster: Karalee Larsen Pugmire <Francesca.da.Bari@usa.net>

>-Poster: Kat & Kent <kdyer@home.com>
>
>Period Patterns #16 is the one that Mistress Nerak makes her tunics for
>the men of House Ladyhall out of... so far as I know, it isn't hard to
>work with so long as you follow her rules... 1) never, ever, ever cut
>the pattern pieces... make new ones out of butcher paper (or newsprint
>or cut open brown bags etc) 2) look at the pictures and don't read the
>instructions (this particular pattern is fairly easy to put together)
>and 3) make a muslin pattern first.
>
>Kat

I always make a newsprint copy of my patterns because I hate messing up.
Are the instructions that bad? Once, in the first few months I was in the
SCA my sister, who joined about the same time in a different city was given
access to a pattern that was so hard. It was for a cotehardie and surcote.
The pattern said it was sized up to 20 or something but when I cut out the
fabric and stitched it up I knew it was at least several sizes smaller than
what it said. My sister never knew who made the pattern. Could this be the
same company? I have very bad memories and a half finished dress I can't do
anything with.

Francesca da Bari
Cote du Ciel (Logan, Utah)
Francesca.da.Bari


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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Sun Oct 17 00:02:11 1999
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Subject: Re: H-COST: Re: movie inspirations - I don't remember the name of it!
Date: Sun, 17 Oct 1999 00:39:11 -0400
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-Poster: "Penny Ladnier" <penny.creative.outlets@erols.com>

The name of the Danny Kaye film is The Court Jester.  The costumes were
designed by Edith Head.  It was made in 1956.  Check the Internet Movie
Database, http://us.imdb.com/  for more information on this or any film.
The Court Jester was on either TCM or AMC last month.

Later... Penny
http://www.costumegallery.com

> I believe you are referring to the movie "The Sword and the Rose" a Disney
> production starring Glynis Johns (the same one who is in Court Jester with
> Danny Kaye) as Mary Tudor, and Richard Todd as Charles Brandon. She is
Henry
> VIII's sister who secretly marries Charles Brandon after her husband the
> King of France dies.

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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Sun Oct 17 10:32:59 1999
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Date: Sun, 17 Oct 1999 11:46:00 EDT
Subject: Re: H-COST: movie "inspirations" - Madness of King George?
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-Poster: AlbertCat@aol.com

In a message dated 10/16/1999 4:26:25 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
dawn.wood1@virgin.net writes:

<< I've just remembered Amadeus. >>

Amadeus is the film I love to hate! [I know, I know....everyone's a critic!] 
I found the costumes completely awful but for the ones taken directly from 
portraits. I can't explain it.....they look like a high school project to me. 
Those awful wigs! Not just Woofie's.... everyone's! The same designer did Valm
ont....which I also found amateurish.
Remember.....this is just MNSHO!
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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Sun Oct 17 10:39:29 1999
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Date: Sun, 17 Oct 1999 11:53:52 EDT
Subject: Re: H-COST: Re: movie inspirations
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-Poster: AlbertCat@aol.com

In a message dated 10/16/1999 5:45:27 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
Gaelscot@aol.com writes:

<<  "Dangerous Liaisons" was good but "Valmont" (same book, same 
 movie release time, no fanfare) was better. >>

See...different strokes...
But as Skeptics often say "Extraordinary claims need extraordinary proof"
You'll have to explain why you think this! James Acheson's designs are 
exquisite! All I can remember about Valmont is some coat he wears that looks 
like blue willow china....and is a fabric they would never have used for a 
coat.....and that awful short pannier thing Cecile wears. What outfits did 
you feel captured upper crust France better than in Dangerous Liaisons?
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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Sun Oct 17 10:46:50 1999
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Subject: Re: H-COST: Re: movie inspirations
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-Poster: AlbertCat@aol.com

In a message dated 10/16/1999 5:45:27 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
Gaelscot@aol.com writes:

<<  I love "Thoroughly 
 Modern Millie" for movie musical costumes. >>

I must say here [since I sorta put you on the spot in my last post....and 
because all I've talked about is what I don't like] that this film is the 
earliest one I remember the costumes inspiring me. I use to draw them in 
class instead of listening to the teacher....especially the black & white 
thing she wears when she decides to become "Chic & mysterious". What great 
clothes!
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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Sun Oct 17 10:53:45 1999
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-Poster: Margo Anderson <margo@directcon.net>

 All I can remember about Valmont is some coat he wears that looks 
>like blue willow china....and is a fabric they would never have used for a 
>coat.....and that awful short pannier thing Cecile wears.

and that the women are either wearing no corset, or really badly cut and
fitted ones.  Even my sister who doesn't sew caught this.

Margo


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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Sun Oct 17 15:46:09 1999
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Date: Sun, 17 Oct 1999 15:57:28 -0400
From: Bill and/or Glenna Jo Christen <gwjchris@rust.net>
Organization: The Curiosity Shop
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-Poster: Bill and/or Glenna Jo Christen <gwjchris@rust.net>

I'm rather behind in my digests and may have missed a few posts so
please forgive my delay and any repeated bits of info.

Regarding poufs being used for sitting when wearing a hoop skirt, I
can't speak of other time periods, but I've never seen nor heard of any
special seating used during the crinoline era of the 1850's and 1860's.
All a woman needed in that era was a chair with no arms.

Someone posted a place that offered hoops for $65 and asked if anyone
else had them for less. If historic accuracy and proper shape and skirt
support, at least for the 1850's to about 1865, is at all important, I
find it hard to imagine anyone could make a cage for that price. If
accuracy is not a factor, ACW merchants offer a variety of covered hoops
with 4 to 6 plastic covered metal hoops for as low as $35-$40. They
would be fine for theatrical productions and other shorter term use
where 'suspension of disbelief' is a major element. They are much better
than those sold in bridal shops that's for sure.

If on the other hand your purpose is to create as an impression as
accurate as you can make it, a reproduction cage is the best choice.
They have a more accurate shape and they move in a more period
appropriate way.

If you are interested in the latter, a good source for cage crinolines
is Heritage Reproductions at:
http://members.tripod.com/~heritage_repro/

If  I may be so bold, I now offer cage crinoline on-line as well at:
http://www.rust.net/~gwjchris/GCATALOG

At the risk of sounding like I'm bragging, I must say our quality
matches that of Heritage, but at a somewhat more modest price. We also
offer a wider range of cage diameters for different purposes.

I hope I haven't broken any list rules regarding "advertising"...

Glenna Jo Christen
gwjchris@rust.net
Visit our web site, "The Curiosity Shop"
http://www.rust.net/~gwjchris/




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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Sun Oct 17 16:19:10 1999
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Date: Sun, 17 Oct 1999 17:33:01 EDT
Subject: H-COST: Re: valmont
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-Poster: Gaelscot@aol.com



Actually, I cannot defend that choice at all. I saw both films before I knew 
much about that period, clothing-wise, and haven't seen them since. I just 
remember that I liked "Valmont" better. I do think it was a better film (What 
was supposed to be remotely attractive about what's-his-name, who played 
Valmont, in DL? How could anyone take him seriously as an irresistable Don 
Juan?), but the costumes in "Dangerous Liaisons" were probably better. Maybe 
I remember the costumes in "Valmont" as being better than they were because I 
liked the film. I thought it did a good job of showing aristocratic life -- 
tons of servants, lots of picnics and dancing and romping about. That thing 
they put Cecile in, though, was just plain stupid -- the whole scene was 
stupid. 

Cecile in "DL" looked dumb too. Was it Uma Thurman? She was shaped all wrong 
for the clothes, she looked like a twig. Sort of like Elle McPherson in "Jane 
Eyre." She may be our idea of a perfect beauty, but she looked like a colt in 
that hoop skirt and off-the-shoulder ballgown, meant for a small, dainty 
figure. It's interesting to see how clothes of the time fit the ideal look of 
the time -- not necessarily our ideal look.

Gail

PS: The book is still better than either movie, or the play. And ALL FOUR 
have different endings!

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Date: Sun, 17 Oct 1999 18:18:22 EDT
Subject: Re: H-COST: Re: valmont
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-Poster: AlbertCat@aol.com

In a message dated 10/17/1999 5:34:36 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
Gaelscot@aol.com writes:

<< Was it Uma Thurman? She was shaped all wrong  >>

This is an intersting observation. The best use of this kind of thing is in Je
fferson in Paris. Gweneth Paltro is perfect as the tall, gawky Virginia girl 
with buck teeth among petit, dreamy French beauties. She stood out 
wonderfully from the rest of the girls in their red wool school uniforms.
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From: Sarah Toney <sarah_and_pooh@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: H-COST: Re: valmont
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-Poster: Sarah Toney <sarah_and_pooh@yahoo.com>

> it was a better film (What 
> was supposed to be remotely attractive about
> what's-his-name, who played 
> Valmont, in DL? How could anyone take him seriously
> as an irresistable Don 
> Juan?), but the costumes in "Dangerous Liaisons"

Honestly, I think John Malkovich is one of the sexiest
men of our time... AND he (in my opinion) is a great
actor... Dangerous Liasons, Con-Air and Man in the
Iron Mask all were better movies for his being
there...

Just my 2 cents.

Sarah


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-Poster: AlbertCat@aol.com

In a message dated 10/17/1999 5:34:36 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
Gaelscot@aol.com writes:

<< Maybe 
 I remember the costumes in "Valmont" as being better than they were because 
I 
 liked the film. >>

Ahhhh...that sounds reasonable. I still think DL is a better film. Everyone 
was too young in Valmont and not EVIL...with a capital "E". I do agree that 
John Malcovich was not the most obvious choice where you think you might need 
a 38-ish gorgeous man....but he does well. I have a hard time believing 
Michelle Pfifer hadn't been hit on before.

But now we've really gotten OT!
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Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 00:09:20 -0500
From: Marc Carlson <marc-carlson@utulsa.edu>
Subject: H-COST: Terminology (was: Pourpoints & Houppelands)
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-Poster: Marc Carlson <marc-carlson@utulsa.edu>

Earlier this weekend, Robin Netherton and I were discussing the
seemingly unstructured nature of modern usage of historical terms, and
it appeared that her use of the term "arbitrary" hit a negative cord
with me.  We appear to agree on the essentials, that because of the
difficulties of the modern usage, it's important that we try to get to
examine and share the meanings, while focusing on the realities of
modern usage (if I have misunderstood this, I hope that she will
correct me).

As an example of a term where the modern definition has been badly
confused by obscure interpretation, we can look at the word "Cyclas". 
If we look at the interpretations available on the Internet, it would
be understandable if we assumed that the definition were of a sideless
surcote, of the sort also apparently called "gates of hell" (or having
"gates of hell" sleeves), or that it meant a crusader-style surcote -
with perhaps the former developing from the latter.  There is also an
interpretation of the garment that appears to blend a surcote with a
cope.  For the record, the following web-sites were used to make this
description (I cite these not for any criticism of their usage, but
because they are what I found after an extensive search, and it's
important that I DO cite them):

http://renstore.com/cyclas.shtml
http://www.varmouries.com/vcloth.html
http://www.cf.ac.uk/uwcc/archi/howshall/arthurm/costume/making.html
http://www.cf.ac.uk/uwcc/archi/howshall/arthurm/costume/costume.html
http://www.village.org/sca/costuming_0696.html
http://www.pbm.com/~lindahl/rialto/clothing-L-msg.html
http://www.reconstructinghistory.com/fenians/womensleine.htm
http://virtualelpaso.com/neverwinter/dress/dress.htm

There is also a website that describes a cyclas as a woman's mantle
with some sort of border around it.
http://www.uky.edu/ArtsSciences/Classics/jlsgloss.html

This suggests two totally differing interpretations of the term.

If we look at the basic dictionaries, we can see where some of this
confusion might arise:

"[Latin cyclas, Greek kuklas a women's garment with a border all
around it.]  A tightly-fitting upper garment or tunic worn by women
from ancient times; also sometimes by men, esp. the tunic or surcoat
made shorter in front than behind, won by knights over their armour in
the 14th century.
1860 FAIRHOLT Costume 97 The lady wears a long gown, over which is a
cyclas, or tightly fitting upper body garment...
 [i.e. a catachrestic or erroneous use] Identified or confused with
CICLATOUN q.v.; see also Du Cange s.v. Cyclas.
1834 PLANCHÉ British Costumes 95  "a rich stuff manufactured in the
Cyclades, and therefore called cyclas or ciclatoun, gave its name to a
garment like a dalmatic or supertunic worn by both sexes.
1876 ROCK Text. Fabr, iv. 27. 
[n.b.  Ciclatoun [Obsolete] Various forms in English from 13th century
to 16th: ciclatun(e, ciclatoun, siclatoun, sikelatoun, syclatoun,
sicladoun, siklatoun, ciclatoune, syclatowne, syclatown, shecklaton,
checklaton [Old French ciclaton, -un, chiclaton, ciglaton, siglaton,
segleton, senglaton, singlaton; Spanish ciclaton; Provençal sosclato
(Diez); Middle High German ciclât, ziglât, siglât, siklatîn]. The
source of names found in most European languages in the Middle Ages,
appears to have been Arabic (originally Persian) siqlatun, also
siqilat, siqalat, etc.  The original Persian term, sakarlat, is the
same word from which we derive Scarlet.  The primary meaning was
"scarlet cloth", later "fine painted or figured cloth", "cloth of
gold".
Diez took ciclaton as a derivative of the Latin Cyclas-adem, a Greek
kuklas,'a state robe of women with a border running around it.  Dozy,
Suppl. Arab. Lex. appears to derive the Arabic from cyclas.  Du Cange
also identified cyclas and ciclatum, and it is possible that the two
words were, from their similarity, confused in Europe in the Middle
Ages.  A precious material much esteemed in the Middle Ages.  In the
first quotation (1225) it refers perhaps to 'scarlet cloth'; in others
it is cloth of gold or other rich material.  Perhaps, sometimes, a
robe or mantle of this stuff (cf. Godefroy).   The word is obsolete by
1400, although variations still appear in English for another
century.]" [OED2]

"1Cyclas -adis feminine. (kuklas) a female robe of state, having a
border of purple or gold embroidery: Propertius, Juvenal.
2Cyclas feminine (namely Island) generally used in the plural
Cyclades, -um, a group of islands in the Aegean Sea." [Cassell's
Latin] 

"Cyclas1 ~adis (~ados) A female's light outer garment having a
decorated border.
Cyclas2 ~adis (~ados) One of the Cyclades, the islands in the Aegean
surrounding Delos (usually plural)." [OLD] 

"Kuklas - encircling, as in the Cyclades, and also a woman's garment
with a circling decoration." [Liddell & Scott's Greek-English Lexicon] 

It would appear that none of these have anything to do with the Middle
Ages, and certainly not a "sideless surcote" of any sort.

Looking at a wide selection of costuming material yields the following
definitions:

"Cyclas. masc. fem. Silken short tunic, or cloak, crom Cyclades, Greek
Islands.  Worn over armour from 13th century." [Davies, 1994]
"Cyclas  A short capelike cloak or tunic worn by men and women from
ancient Greek and Roman times to thirteenth century England; made of a
rich silk cloth called cyclas because it was made in the Cyclades. 
Greeks, Romans, Franks, and Goths wore the garment.  At the coronation
of the English Henry III in the 13th century, the guest "citizens of
London wore the cyclas over vestements of silk."  In the same period,
knights wore the cyclas over their armor as a surcoat." [n.b. the
illustration shown is of a short, loose garment edged at the collar
and cuffs in fur]   [Wilcox, 1969] 
[Not referred to in Boucher, 1966] 
Under "Spain", two women and a man are depicted and described as
wearing a "cyclas".  One woman and a man are in pellots (edged in a
border), tunics and copes (edged in a border).  These are described as
"cyclas and loba".   In the next picture, a woman is described as
having a cyclas, two women are depicted - one argueably wearing a
sideless surcote with attached sleeves the same material as the
surcoat, the other in a fitted bodice. [Racinet, 1988] 
"Cyclas, or sleeveless tunic" shown as a military garment and there is
a vague distinction between it and the sideless gown. [Hill &
Bucknell, 1967]
"Men's dress. Tunics; cyclas or cyclaton: sleeves tapering to wrist;
use of parti-color; dagged edges; fur linings." [two illustrations
showing sleeveless tabard over armor] [Davenport, 1948.]
"Cyclas (ciclatoun, syglaton, gardcorp, surcote).  Matthew of Paris
relates that at the wedding of Henry III, in 1236, many... dressed in
garments for which he uses the word "cycladibus," worked with gold,
over vestments of silk.  This garment was usually made of very rich
material (especially when it came into fashion) manufactured in the
Cyclades, and the name Cyclas is attributed to this source."
[illustrations show sideless surcotes]. "an over-robe without sleeves
-- the cyclas-- shaped like that of the men..." [Norris, 1927]

Clearly, somewhere between the definition used in 1860, "a tightly
fitting upper body garment..." and 1927 the meaning has changed
completely, possibly from Matthew of Paris's misunderstanding of the
term (as suggested by the OED definition), or perhaps Matthew of Paris
was misunderstood.  I don't have a copy of Matthew of Paris at home,
so I haven't started checking that link yet.  I do find it suggestive
that the term is not used in Bouchet, Kohler, or my Middle English
Dictionary.

Of course, the easy thing to do at this point would be to say "well,
it's Norris, and this is another case where he's screwed things up
again" and that might well be.  But until I can verify his initial
source, I'd rather not.  There may still be other factors at play
here.

In any case, I'm fairly certain the term has nothing to do with the
Cyclades, but rather from the encircling nature of the decoration, and
that the older connecting it to the fabric (as ascribed to Matthew of
Paris) is erroneous.  However, since that is not how it is being used
today, we can set that aside.

Marc
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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Mon Oct 18 00:03:18 1999
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Date: Sun, 17 Oct 1999 22:30:47 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jonna Hayden <jonna_hayden@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: H-COST: art vs. accuracy
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-Poster: Jonna Hayden <jonna_hayden@yahoo.com>



--- Danielle Nunn <dnunn@interlog.com> wrote:
. He had seen the
> >movie Dangerous Beauty and was asking me why the
> courtesan's
> >dresses exposed the legs in a majority of the
> scenes. ?
> 
> The exposed leg thing is actually a take off of some
> 16th century woodcuts

This is from Vecellio's Renaissance Costume book, and
indeed, it is a flip up to show the excessive height
of the Courtesan's chopines and their underwear. More
often than not the flip up part is reproduced without
the regular view and presented as "haute courtesan."

Jonna

=====

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Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 10:23:28 +0100
From: "KATE M BUNTING" <K.M.Bunting@derby.ac.uk>
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Subject: H-COST: Re: h-costume-digest V4 #706
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-Poster: "KATE M BUNTING" <K.M.Bunting@derby.ac.uk>

I checked the O.E.D. and its definitions of the word "wench" boil down to 3 basic meanings:-
1. A girl or young woman (In "The Mill on the Floss", Maggie Tulliver's father refers to her as "the little wench")
2. A lower class or rustic young woman
3. A woman of easy virtue, a mistress

>>>
- -Poster: Carolyn Kayta Barrows <kayta@slip.net>


My understanding of the word wench is that originally it meant lower class
young woman and only later came to mean 'available' lower class young
woman.  So many of our young female participants call themselves wench
without meaning anything their mothers wouldn't approve of.  Wench a word
our customers know, so they delight in calling all our female ale stand
servers by that name.  I even get called wench, at age 50, when they aren't
calling me milady, the only other word they know for woman.

>>

Kate Bunting
Library, University of Derby

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Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 10:03:33 EDT
Subject: H-COST: bodice lacing
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-Poster: DRGurley@aol.com

I've been lurking for a while now and since the topic of lacing has come up, 
thought I'd ask my curiosity question:

It's my understanding that a corset was worn over the chemise and under the 
bodice of Elizabethan costumes of all but peasant level. Is this accurate? 
I've seen many posts about gap between the laces--both front and back--and am 
wondering how one keeps the corset from showing between the laces.

All my bodices lace tightly closed over my corset. Are there alternatives?

I'm also interested in making a front lace bodice with a detachable stomacher 
so that a) I can lace into myself, b)it will give me several options for 
combinations (peasant, merchant class, etc).  Any thoughts and/or tips would 
be appreciated.

Thanks!
Dani G
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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Mon Oct 18 09:33:09 1999
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Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 10:45:52 -0400 (EDT)
From: Ioana Timariu <ioana@yucc.yorku.ca>
To: h-costume-digest@indra.com
Subject: H-COST: COS Real Folkloric costumes from Turkey etc (fwd)
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-Poster: Ioana Timariu <ioana@yucc.yorku.ca>


Hello! Thought some of you might appreciate this: 

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Mon, 11 Oct 1999 15:15:17 -0700
From: "Faint, Kylie" <KFaint@sempra.com>
Reply-To: med-dance@europe.std.com
To: med-dance@world.std.com
Subject: COS Real Folkloric costumes from Turkey etc

X-33208-Poster:  "Faint, Kylie" <KFaint@sempra.com>

Hi list,

An "International Gallery" in my neighbourhood is closing down, and they
have some *awesome* folkloric outfits for sale, which were part of a
travelling exhibition they did in the US & Canada - these are museum quality
costumes!

I've been wracking my brain trying to think who might appreciate these, to
little avail, so I'm just throwing the info out there, in case anyone's
interested.

The costume I looked at (they are all bagged up) was 13 pieces, for a
particular village in Turkey.  It had everything from underwear (very cute
bloomer type undies!), tunic, apron, vest, jacket, shawls, headpiece &
jewelry, even a set of kashiklar (dancing spoons)!  The owner phoned me up
today, and said that he might be able to swing me a special deal, since he
knows I'm genuinely interested in the stuff.  I am, but I'm wondering what I
would do with a collection of authentic folk costumes :)  I don't know where
all the costumes are from, as I only looked at one.  The shop has garments
from Syria, Morroco, Egypt, Afghanistan etc also.

I guess thats all, just had to pass this info on to someone!!

Kylie
KFaint@Sempra.com

--
X-To-Get-Help-File: re list & assoc. info (graphics, lyrics, digests, etc),
email dancers-archive@world.std.com w/ SUBJECT: 'help med-dance'. Body ignored.

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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Mon Oct 18 09:35:02 1999
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To: Multiple recipients of list H-COSTUME <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: H-COST: rare glove article
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-Poster: ches@io.com

If anyone is interested in rare articles about gloves from Elizabeth's I
time this Threads issue has one!

I already own this copy and love the photos in it.
http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=183258162

Sincerely,
F. Havas
ches@io.com

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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Mon Oct 18 09:57:46 1999
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From: melanies@skylightopera.com
To: h-costume@indra.com
Subject: H-COST: cyclas sources (Terminology)
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-Poster: melanies@skylightopera.com


Regarding the exegesis of the term "cyclas," I am wondering if 
there are any references to this word in texts from the period(s) in 
which these garments (whatever shape they took) were worn.  How 
did we, or Planche, for that matter, come to use this word?  Surely 
there must be a source, though it's certainly possible that the 
source is in error.

A-hunting we will go...
Melanie Schuessler



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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Mon Oct 18 10:05:45 1999
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-Poster: Margo Anderson <margo@directcon.net>

At 09:47 AM 10/18/1999 -0500, you wrote:
>
>-Poster: ches@io.com
>
>If anyone is interested in rare articles about gloves from Elizabeth's I
>time this Threads issue has one!

I don't recall that this article is about gloves from Elizabeth's time, but
rather, it's about how to pattern and make gloves.  One of the illustrations
shows a drop dead gorgeous pair of white leather gloves with lavender insets
and crystal and freshwater pearl beads, in an Elizabethanish style, but the
article is not specifically about historical gloves.  



Margo


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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Mon Oct 18 12:30:42 1999
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From: "Henk 't Jong - tScapreel" <scapreel@tip.nl>
To: "H-Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: H-COST: indian traveller 1515
Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 19:03:11 +0200
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-Poster: "Henk 't Jong - tScapreel" <scapreel@tip.nl>

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_003B_01BF199B.6C11E2C0
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Hi all,

A question from me: what would a well-to-do Indian (and I mean the Asian =
sub-continent) traveller to 1515 Europe wear? It's just before Moghul =
rule and I suppose he would have been Hindu. Would he, f.i., aquire =
western type clothes on the long and slow way west and combine these =
with some of his native dress, or would he be conservative, or, on the =
other hand, completely do away with his things and go Habsburg/late =
burgundian/landsknecht (he is not a military person, though).

Are there any websites you people know, where I can go to find out?

Thanks in advance,

Henk

tScapreel
Medieval Advisors
Dordrecht, Netherlands

------=_NextPart_000_003B_01BF199B.6C11E2C0
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2314.1000" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Hi all,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>A question from me: what would a =
well-to-do Indian=20
(and I mean the Asian sub-continent) traveller to 1515 Europe wear? It's =
just=20
before Moghul rule and I suppose he would have been Hindu. Would he, =
f.i.,=20
aquire western type clothes on the long and slow way west and combine =
these with=20
some of his native dress, or would he be conservative, or, on the other =
hand,=20
completely do away with his things and go Habsburg/late =
burgundian/landsknecht=20
(he is not a military person, though).</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Are there any websites you people know, =
where I can=20
go to find out?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Thanks in advance,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Henk</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>tScapreel</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Medieval Advisors</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Dordrecht, =
Netherlands</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_003B_01BF199B.6C11E2C0--

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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Mon Oct 18 12:30:43 1999
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Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 11:23:43 -0500 (CDT)
From: Robin Netherton <robin@shell.nightowl.net>
To: h-costume@indra.com
Subject: Re: H-COST: Terminology (was: Pourpoints & Houppelands)
In-Reply-To: <380AAB80.DCAA5900@utulsa.edu>
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-Poster: Robin Netherton <robin@shell.nightowl.net>


On Mon, 18 Oct 1999, Marc Carlson wrote:

> Earlier this weekend, Robin Netherton and I were discussing the
> seemingly unstructured nature of modern usage of historical terms, and
> it appeared that her use of the term "arbitrary" hit a negative cord
> with me.  We appear to agree on the essentials, that because of the
> difficulties of the modern usage, it's important that we try to get to
> examine and share the meanings, while focusing on the realities of
> modern usage (if I have misunderstood this, I hope that she will
> correct me).

I think that's about right!

> As an example of a term where the modern definition has been badly
> confused by obscure interpretation, we can look at the word "Cyclas". 

OH, yes. Thanks for the in-depth sourcehunt, Marc!

I think of "cyclas" every time the terminology issue comes up.  The first
time I ever took notice of the term "cyclas" was when I came across it in
"Fashion in History," by Marybelle Bigelow (second edition c. 1979; I
don't know when the first edition came out). This happened to be the
textbook in my college history-of-fashion class, about 1980. It was the
only class I ever took from my university's home ec school, which is large
and has a good reputation. Alas, it became obvious from almost the first
day of class that (1) the textbook, and apparently the class, were geared
to aspiring modern fashion designers, and (2) neither the author of the
book nor my own professor knew much about the Middle Ages/Renaissance, but
they were obligated to cover those periods in a survey course. The
professor taught from the book, and the book's section on medieval is an
abomination. I cannot begin to list the misrepresentations and
misappropriations in the four medieval/renaissance chapters (one of which
is titled "Dark Ages and Before"). Of course the errors are randomly mixed
in with some solid information, very few "facts" are cited to specific
sources, and virtually all the sources listed are modern. 

Bigelow defines cyclas as a "floor-length surcoat that featured deep
armholes (female), 12th-14th centuries" and shows a picture of one of the
statues of a French queen at the Palais de Justice -- the classic sideless
surcote with fur front and edging and buttons down the middle. Bigelow
also interprets the statue's crown as a "coronet of fresh leaves" (huh?) 
and describes the sleeved body garment (showing from beneath the sideless
surcote) as a "sorquenie," a "snug, buttocks-length garment with very
tight sleeves." On the next page is a drawing (most of the book is
drawings, with some photos of real art) of this hip-length sorquenie worn
OVER a "floor-length chainse" (chemise). I can't even begin to figure out
what source was misinterpreted to produce that image. 

If you have a strong stomach, check the book out. Note the definition of
"a grandes assiettes" as a noun meaning the "full-skirted peplum" hanging
from the waist of the pourpoint and (later) the 16th-century doublet. 
Check out the illustration of a steeple hennin with a big fluffy bow,
complete with ribbon, tied onto the tip. You'll find out that a
supercotehardie is a shorter version of the cotehardie. You'll see James
Laver's (modern) slam at the farthingale recast as being a comment from
"wits of the era."

I'm can only hope the book is better in its later chapters -- I'm not an
expert in those eras, and I knew even less when I took this course 20
years ago, so I can't judge the quality of the rest of the book. I suspect
that the author was probably a specialist in 18th or 19th-century dress,
or maybe 20th-century fashion illustration, and that she was put in the
awkward position of writing a textbook that covered everything from
Mesopotamia to modern. She most likely cobbled together the chapters that
were outside her area from a few secondary sources and little real
personal knowledge. And I'm sure this was a well-meaning effort --
probably the best she could do given the sources she had access to, in the
time available to her. 

This is too common an occurrence. I have a whole shelf of books like this. 
I collect them, because I frequently get inquiries from people whose ONLY
exposure to historic dress research has been some textbook like this, in a
class like the one I took. I'm keenly aware that many of my
readers/listeners come to my material with this kind of background, and I
have to anticipate it -- and I have to understand what they're saying when
they ask me questions based on what they learned (in all good faith) from
these sources. 

Which brings me back to terminology. This book, like some others on my
"notorious sources" shelf, presents hundreds of terms (with a nice
glossary at the end). Words I've never heard of are boldfaced and set
forth without comment as THE name for various garments. People who read
these books, and don't already have some background in costume history,
have no reason to suspect these definitions, and no reason to consider
that these particular terms weren't even standard at the time, much less
now. So the whole terminology issue that concerns us so deeply is
invisible to most people outside the circles of in-depth costume research.
To an extent, that's a problem with the specialized language in many
fields, from economics to theology.

Maddening? Yes. Can we do anything about it? Within the field, yes -- Marc
demonstrates that. But in dealing with people who aren't doing costume
research themselves -- like the art historians and literature scholars I
often speak to -- there's less we can do. I'm probably the only member of
my costume history class to have noticed any problem with the medieval
terminology in that book, which means the other students (and the ones who
took the class in later years) are still probably relying on the
half-remembered information they picked up from that one exposure. And
library shelves are full of books like Bigelow, which (because they set
everything out so clearly and precisely) are wonderfully attractive to the
person looking for basic information on medieval clothing.

Which is one reason I try now to use generic modern terms when I'm making
modern observations, and reserve the specific historic terms for when I'm
citing specific historic sources. I try to name multiple terms when I know
them, and at the start of every paper, I define the basic terms I'm going
to use. If I can raise a little awareness that these matters are NOT all
neat and tidy, then perhaps I've helped. 

And -- back to the post that started this whole thread. The woman who
originally posted asked whether a garment was a houppelande or a
haincelin. Haincelin? I hadn't heard that one -- but Biglow has it here,
as "[French]: short houppelande (male), Renaissance" and "an outer wrap
worn by young Renaissance dandies" with a variety of sleeves. The picture
she reproduces is Italian. OK, the term is out there somewhere. I have no
idea where she got it, and I wouldn't trust her definition as far as I can
throw the book.

--Robin


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From: "Karie Mitchell" <allessandre@hotmail.com>
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-Poster: "Karie Mitchell" <allessandre@hotmail.com>

>From: AlbertCat@aol.com
>Check out the 2 part Little Doritt....with Derek Jacobe & Alec >Guiness. 
>All the clothes were actually made by hand. It took 2 years.

Tell me more!  Tell me more!  Where, when, and the story!  Please, please 
(whimper, whimper!)

Karie/Allessandre

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Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 13:45:57 EDT
Subject: H-COST: Courtesans
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-Poster: Pandoorah@aol.com

In a message dated 10/15/99 5:08:25 PM Pacific Daylight Time, 
benrumson@worldnet.att.net writes:

> However, most of the art presented is "speculative" in that
> a lot of it you probably already have in costume books, and the author
> is making reasoned assumptions based on history that some of the women
> depicted were courtesans.  I guess respectable women didn't normally get
>  painted in their underwear (shocking, I know ;-0).

I promise, there is a point to this...  My roommate and I are currently 
looking for documentation of Courtesan's clothing, so this discussion has 
been very interesting.  It has been a two year long search (so far) and once 
and while we will find something...  We have been collecting documentation 
(written, speculative, visual) from every source imaginable and storing it in 
a binder...  But the other day my roommate called me at work, and in a very 
excited voice, told me she had found the perfect painting of a Courtesan...  
She promised to get to get it copied and bring it home.  When she got home 
she showed me her precious copy.  Now before I go any further I want to make 
sure and point out that my roommate is a very smart woman.  And she does 
great research...  Having followed the notes and descriptions about what 
courtesans wore, she assumed the painting, which did not have a label, must 
be a courtesan...  It was however Eleanor of Toledo.  My roommate was very 
embarrassed when I was able to identify to portrait.

Shannon
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X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express for Macintosh - 4.0c (197) 
Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 11:17:34 -0700
Subject: Re: H-COST: indian traveller 1515
From: "R.L. Shep" <rlshep@home.com>
To: h-costume@indra.com
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-Poster: "R.L. Shep" <rlshep@home.com>

> THIS MESSAGE IS IN MIME FORMAT. Since your mail reader does not understand
this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.

--MS_Mac_OE_3023090254_38999_MIME_Part
Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit

I have forwarded your request to Irene Joshi the South Asian Librarian at
the University of Washington Library.  Clothing is one of her specialties. 
In case you want to contact her directly her email is
joshi@u.washington.edu

~!~ R.L.Shep
http://www.rlshep.com

----------
From: "Henk 't Jong - tScapreel" <scapreel@tip.nl>
To: "H-Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: H-COST: indian traveller 1515
Date: Mon, Oct 18, 1999, 10:03 AM


Hi all,
 
A question from me: what would a well-to-do Indian (and I mean the Asian
sub-continent) traveller to 1515 Europe wear? It's just before Moghul rule
and I suppose he would have been Hindu. Would he, f.i., aquire western type
clothes on the long and slow way west and combine these with some of his
native dress, or would he be conservative, or, on the other hand, completely
do away with his things and go Habsburg/late burgundian/landsknecht (he is
not a military person, though).
 
Are there any websites you people know, where I can go to find out?
 
Thanks in advance,
 
Henk
 
tScapreel
Medieval Advisors
Dordrecht, Netherlands


--MS_Mac_OE_3023090254_38999_MIME_Part
Content-type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1"
Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable

<HTML>
<HEAD>
<TITLE>Re: H-COST: indian traveller 1515</TITLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY BGCOLOR=3D"#FFFFFF">
<FONT SIZE=3D"4"><TT>I have forwarded your request to Irene Joshi the South A=
sian Librarian at the University of Washington Library.  Clothing is one of =
her specialties.  In case you want to contact her directly her email is<BR>
joshi@u.washington.edu<BR>
<BR>
~!~ R.L.Shep<BR>
http://www.rlshep.com<BR>
<BR>
----------<BR>
From: &quot;Henk 't Jong - tScapreel&quot; &lt;scapreel@tip.nl&gt;<BR>
To: &quot;H-Costume&quot; &lt;h-costume@indra.com&gt;<BR>
Subject: H-COST: indian traveller 1515<BR>
Date: Mon, Oct 18, 1999, 10:03 AM<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
</TT></FONT><FONT SIZE=3D"2">Hi all,</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D"4"><TT><BR>
 <BR>
</TT></FONT><FONT SIZE=3D"2">A question from me: what would a well-to-do Indi=
an (and I mean the Asian sub-continent) traveller to 1515 Europe wear? It's =
just before Moghul rule and I suppose he would have been Hindu. Would he, f.=
i., aquire western type clothes on the long and slow way west and combine th=
ese with some of his native dress, or would he be conservative, or, on the o=
ther hand, completely do away with his things and go Habsburg/late burgundia=
n/landsknecht (he is not a military person, though).</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D"4"><T=
T><BR>
 <BR>
</TT></FONT><FONT SIZE=3D"2">Are there any websites you people know, where I =
can go to find out?</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D"4"><TT><BR>
 <BR>
</TT></FONT><FONT SIZE=3D"2">Thanks in advance,</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D"4"><TT><BR>
 <BR>
</TT></FONT><FONT SIZE=3D"2">Henk</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D"4"><TT><BR>
 <BR>
</TT></FONT><FONT SIZE=3D"2">tScapreel</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D"4"><TT><BR>
</TT></FONT><FONT SIZE=3D"2">Medieval Advisors</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D"4"><TT><BR>
</TT></FONT><FONT SIZE=3D"2">Dordrecht, Netherlands</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D"4"><TT>=
<BR>
<BR>
</TT></FONT>
</BODY>
</HTML>

--MS_Mac_OE_3023090254_38999_MIME_Part--

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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Mon Oct 18 13:35:23 1999
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Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 14:45:49 EDT
Subject: Re: H-COST: movie "inspirations"
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-Poster: AlbertCat@aol.com

In a message dated 10/18/1999 1:48:27 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
allessandre@hotmail.com writes:

<< >Check out the 2 part Little Doritt....with Derek Jacobe & Alec >Guiness. 
 >All the clothes were actually made by hand. It took 2 years.
 
 Tell me more!  Tell me more!  Where, when, and the story!  Please, please 
 (whimper, whimper!)
  >>

Calm....calm....

All I know is that the clothes were indeed hand made. We rented some for the 
miniseries Queen and they were entirely hand sewn....down to the whipped 
overcasting of raw seam allowances. If the hooks & eyes had been brass, I 
would've thought they were very well preserved originals.

I believe they were exhibited at the V&A after production. The film[s] looks 
perfect. Every walk of life is represented.

James Acheson only asks that leads & featured extras have all stitching & 
sewing that shows be done by hand....usually just above the hip. This is 
because a buttonhole on the big screen may end up 3 feet long. Sandy Powell 
was not quite as picky. We could do machine buttonholes but had to do a quick 
overwhipped so the stitching didn't look so perfect, machinelike & even. She 
had me take some ruffles off some chemise sleeves worn by a tavern 
wench/victim in "Interview" because the edges were machine scalloped. It 
looked too neat. But I've seen some real, early 19th century lappets & 
engagentes with hand scalloping that looked so perfect it was machinelike.
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From: "Cynthia Barnes" <Cynthia_Barnes@phoenix.com>
To: "H-Costume (E-mail)" <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: H-COST: re: Pourpoints & Houppelandes (Haincelin)
Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 11:46:50 -0700
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-Poster: "Cynthia Barnes" <Cynthia_Barnes@phoenix.com>


Cin>> There's an illumination on the inside front cover of "Parades et
Parures", (Boccacio, "De Cleres at Nobles Femmes", circa 1402, BNF Paris).
Wish I could find it online, but the BNF is not responding right now. Here's
a verbal description:
Cin>>The Seducer: Knee-length houppeland, body portion black, assiettes
bright pink, turning into bag sleeves? w/ yellow-green dagging; lined w/
brown fur; red-orange pointy toed boots.
Cin>> Demoiselle studying: Yellow (deep gold) houppeland, w/ safety orange
lining visible inside dagged sleeve, matching orange belt, fitted sleeves of
a deep purple cotte visible.
Cin>> Is his pink & black garment truly a houppeland even in this different
cut?
>> Is it a haincelin?

Robin>What's a haincelin? :-) I don't remember hearing that term before.

Let me "read" you the text that I'm having trouble with:

Excerpted from _Parades et Parures_, Dr. Odile Blanc, ISBN, 2.07.073725.X
translated by Cynthia Barnes, 1999

_Parades & Finery_, p36, Ch. 1 "Surfaces" - discussing mens' wear, e.g. the
garment of the seducer described above

"The long garment (houppelande), very expansive at the turn of the 15th c.,
is the subject of the same passion as the jack [jaque] over which it was
often worn.   Additionally, it was adopted by women as much as by men, and
was particularly directed toward [indique pour] those persons for whom the
dignity of their social position or simply their age forbade the wearing of
short or closely fitted garments. Here then, is testimony to the to the
diversity of available clothing. More rare, this garment was worn without a
belt, but some other element was added to break the uniformity: hood [] with
a long, tied horn [chaperon a cornette], or a heavily worked sleeve.
Finally, the length mattered less than it previously had; and while these
garments did get quite long, there were some short houppelands
(haincelins)".

Translator's notes:
1. Round parens, ( ), denote words that were in parens in the original text.
2. Words in square parens, [], denote words, regretfully w/o proper French
accents, from Dr. Blanc's original text; they follow the English
translation.
3. There is no glossary in the back of this book.
--cin
Cynthia Barnes
408.570.1023
Cynthia_Barnes@phoenix.com
Phoenix Technologies
411 E. Plumeria Dr.
San Jose CA 95134
"I think animal testing is a terrible idea; they get all nervous and give
the wrong answers."

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Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 14:53:06 EDT
Subject: Re: H-COST: Courtesans
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-Poster: AlbertCat@aol.com

In a message dated 10/18/1999 1:48:59 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
Pandoorah@aol.com writes:

<<  It was however Eleanor of Toledo.  >>

Well...who knows what she did week ends!

Anyway, that painting [you no doubt already know] of courtesans in a garden 
has them dress beautifully, like any other wealthy lady. Why should they have 
a "special" look? Were one to design, say, Bianca from Much Ado, one would 
maybe show more skin and some bright colors & flash to attract attention. 
But, come to think of it, these is not unusual aspects of court dress.
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To: h-costume@indra.com
Subject: Re: H-COST: Courtesans
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-Poster: ches@io.com

When we did Dangerous Liasons at Zach Scott each actor was charged
with the task of researching their character and report to the director
what they found. We did an exercize based on what we found.

The courtesan found most of her stuff from the original book of letters
that the play was based on. Specifically from Valmont's letters. She found
other sources through writing letters (in french) to the publisher of the
play we were using. Or rather fromt he sources that publisher sent her.

All I can tell you is that she played her character as much to the letter
of what she found. One of the interesteing things she found was that cross
dressing for females was exclusive to the courtesans. Sorry I could not be
much more help than that.

Sincerely,
F. Havas
ches@io.com


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Subject: Re: H-COST: Favorite Costuming in Movies
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-Poster: Pandoorah@aol.com

Just because nobody has said any of these...

The Buccaneers (the BBC production)
North and South (the mini-series...  Yes, I know, TV)
Old, Period Hollywood Movies - Diane, The Seahawks and Zorro
Death on the Nile
Gaslight
Lady Jane
Anne of a Thousand Days

I know some have more problems then others...  But they are great to sit and 
watch while trying to be inspired for a new costume.

Shannon
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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Mon Oct 18 14:20:13 1999
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-Poster: aleed <aleed@dnaco.net>

I did read an article recently on Courtesans in Renaissance Florence (15th
century), specifically their encounters with the legal system.  The
article contained a list of "violations" for which the courtesans were
arrested. Top of the list was "snatching men's hats off their heads", and
right below that was "dressing like a man."

If anyone's interested, I can give them the bibliographic info for it.
Fascinating article.

Drea



 On Mon, 18 Oct 1999 ches@io.com wrote:

> 
> -Poster: ches@io.com
> 
> When we did Dangerous Liasons at Zach Scott each actor was charged
> with the task of researching their character and report to the director
> what they found. We did an exercize based on what we found.
> 
> The courtesan found most of her stuff from the original book of letters
> that the play was based on. Specifically from Valmont's letters. She found
> other sources through writing letters (in french) to the publisher of the
> play we were using. Or rather fromt he sources that publisher sent her.
> 
> All I can tell you is that she played her character as much to the letter
> of what she found. One of the interesteing things she found was that cross
> dressing for females was exclusive to the courtesans. Sorry I could not be
> much more help than that.
> 
> Sincerely,
> F. Havas
> ches@io.com
> 

From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Mon Oct 18 14:20:15 1999
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Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 14:34:16 -0500 (CDT)
From: Robin Netherton <robin@shell.nightowl.net>
To: "H-Costume (E-mail)" <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: H-COST: re: Pourpoints & Houppelandes (Haincelin)
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-Poster: Robin Netherton <robin@shell.nightowl.net>


I normally snip for space, but I'll quote Cynthia's description of an
illumination and her translation of a costume analysis below. 

And I'll ask -- um, what was the question again?

If the question is, was a short full gown on a c. 1400 man a houppelande
or a haincelin, I'd probably use houppelande because I'm an English
speaker, and because this is the term more generally used today by
English-speaking costume researchers as an umbrella term for a full gown
of this period.

The common definition of houppelande, at least as I hear/see the term
used, usually assumes a full overgown cut in single pieces from shoulder
to hem, probably with a circular or near-circular general form to the
entire garment (there are certainly many ways to achieve this, and the
details of cut obviously varied over time and place), often belted at the
waist but sometimes hanging loose, and having full sleeves, either open or
bag-style. I'd personally resist using the term "houppelande" for a
gown with fitted body or sleeves, or for anything with a waistline seam,
because I see fullness and shoulder-to-hem cut as key elements of the
definition. Someone else might have a different definition. (I haven't
seen the picture, so I'm assuming it meets this definition.) 

If the question is, what would a person of that time call it, I would
think that would depend on where and when he was. I gather "haincelin" is
a French term? As I mentioned earlier, I hadn't heard the term till this
week, and now I found it in another book this morning (see my Terminology
post).  That book is unreliable, but the definition of "short houppelande"
matches the one you quote, which could simply mean both authors are
quoting the same source, or one is quoting the other. I don't know of any
historic sources for the word, but I don't read much medieval French. I
have no idea if the word was common in the period or if some later
researcher popularized it.

When in doubt, I always use the word "gown." For men or women. It's the
most generic term I've seen either now or in the period.

--Robin


> Cin>> There's an illumination on the inside front cover of "Parades et
> Parures", (Boccacio, "De Cleres at Nobles Femmes", circa 1402, BNF Paris).
> Wish I could find it online, but the BNF is not responding right now. Here's
> a verbal description:
> Cin>>The Seducer: Knee-length houppeland, body portion black, assiettes
> bright pink, turning into bag sleeves? w/ yellow-green dagging; lined w/
> brown fur; red-orange pointy toed boots.
> Cin>> Demoiselle studying: Yellow (deep gold) houppeland, w/ safety orange
> lining visible inside dagged sleeve, matching orange belt, fitted sleeves of
> a deep purple cotte visible.
> Cin>> Is his pink & black garment truly a houppeland even in this different
> cut?
> >> Is it a haincelin?

> Excerpted from _Parades et Parures_, Dr. Odile Blanc, ISBN, 2.07.073725.X
> translated by Cynthia Barnes, 1999
> 
> _Parades & Finery_, p36, Ch. 1 "Surfaces" - discussing mens' wear, e.g. the
> garment of the seducer described above
> 
> "The long garment (houppelande), very expansive at the turn of the 15th c.,
> is the subject of the same passion as the jack [jaque] over which it was
> often worn.   Additionally, it was adopted by women as much as by men, and
> was particularly directed toward [indique pour] those persons for whom the
> dignity of their social position or simply their age forbade the wearing of
> short or closely fitted garments. Here then, is testimony to the to the
> diversity of available clothing. More rare, this garment was worn without a
> belt, but some other element was added to break the uniformity: hood [] with
> a long, tied horn [chaperon a cornette], or a heavily worked sleeve.
> Finally, the length mattered less than it previously had; and while these
> garments did get quite long, there were some short houppelands
> (haincelins)".
> 
> Translator's notes:
> 1. Round parens, ( ), denote words that were in parens in the original text.
> 2. Words in square parens, [], denote words, regretfully w/o proper French
> accents, from Dr. Blanc's original text; they follow the English
> translation.
> 3. There is no glossary in the back of this book.


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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Mon Oct 18 14:33:01 1999
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Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 15:45:36 EDT
Subject: Re: H-COST: Favorite Costuming in Movies
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-Poster: AlbertCat@aol.com

In a message dated 10/18/1999 3:23:55 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
Pandoorah@aol.com writes:

<< North and South (the mini-series...  Yes, I know, TV) >>

YIKES! [here I go again!]

Now stop looking at Patrick Swazey and look at the clothes! There seems to be 
a rule: 
Older married women: buttoned up to the neck
Younger married women: some décolletage
Unmarried women: Plunging décolletage
This in any situation at any time of day.
There's a scene where they pick cotton in hoops and low necklines I believe.

For even funnier costumes check out the minisearies they did by the same guy 
that's Revolutionary War....with Don Johnson. I forget the name. Hysterical! 
[don't miss the Victorian furniture in the background while you're at it]

The clothes in Queen are pretty good.....even if I did work on it myself :-)

<<Death on the Nile
Gaslight
Lady Jane
Anne of a Thousand Days>>

All yummy!
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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Mon Oct 18 14:41:17 1999
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Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 15:54:37 -0400
To: h-costume-digest@indra.com
From: Asia Poppers <apoppers@BBNPLANET.COM>
Subject: H-COST: Wide Soutache
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-Poster: Asia Poppers <apoppers@BBNPLANET.COM>

Hi All, 

At my favorite little discount fabric store, I found some soutache braid
much wider than the Wright's stuff that's sold in the little packages.
It's about 3/16" wide, and looks like it's made by winding the glossy fiber
(rayon, probably) over two *pairs* of cords, with the cords of each pair
laid side-by-side, to make a wider but fairly flat soutache.

My favorite little discount fabric store has prices that can't be beat,
because the folks who run it buy remnants and bolt ends and odd lots.
Therefore they have this stuff only in a very few colors, and once it's
gone, I'll probably never see it again.

That's the problem.  I want it in other colors.  Lots of it, where I know I
can get it again reliably.  Has anyone on the list ever seen this stuff?
Is it just jumbo soutache or does it go by some other name?  And does
anyone know where to get it on a range of colors, or even just black?

Thanks in advance for any info, 

Asia
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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Mon Oct 18 15:06:43 1999
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Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 15:26:41 -0500
From: Marc Carlson <marc-carlson@utulsa.edu>
Subject: H-COST: cyclas sources (Terminology)
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-Poster: Marc Carlson <marc-carlson@utulsa.edu>

<melanies@skylightopera.com>
>Regarding the exegesis of the term "cyclas," I am wondering if 
>there are any references to this word in texts from the period(s) in 
>which these garments (whatever shape they took) were worn.  How 
>did we, or Planche, for that matter, come to use this word?  Surely 
>there must be a source, though it's certainly possible that the 
>source is in error.

Here we are.  Matthew of Paris, in describing the wedding and coronation
of Eleanor to Henry III in 1236 "...sericis vestimentis ornati, cicladibus
auro textus circumdati, ..."  Well, hmm.  After checking with my Latin
resources, this looks like *either* "silken ornate garments, encircled (in
the manner of a cyclas) with golden made stuff" *or* "silken ornate garments,
encircled (in the manner of the Cyclades). with golden made stuff".  I'm
thinking the former.

That means that unless better information turns up, it *could* be that 
Norris screwed it up.

Marc
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Subject: Re: H-COST: Courtesans
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-Poster: Fopdejour1@aol.com

In a message dated 10/18/99 7:18:09 PM !!!First Boot!!!, aleed@dnaco.net 
writes:

<< If anyone's interested, I can give them the bibliographic info for it.
 Fascinating article.
 
 Drea
  >>


Drea,

     I would love to get the biblio on it
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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Mon Oct 18 15:49:40 1999
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From: "Linda Yordy" <abuyordy@cobfac.BoiseState.edu>
Organization: College of Business & Economics
To: h-costume@indra.com
Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 15:02:24 -0700
Subject: Re: H-COST: side-laced bodices
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-Poster: "Linda Yordy" <abuyordy@cobfac.BoiseState.edu>

> > There are examples of side laced German Renn gowns, though the lacing was
> > in lieu of, not in addition to front lacing.
> 
> Ditto on the Italians.  

Actually, I've found a painting using both front and side lacing. It's 
Cosimo Tura's "Spring" from c. 1460.

You can find it at the Web Gallery Search:
http://www.kfki.hu/~arthp/search.html

Just search for Tura.

This is the same gown that Hunniset uses in her book. It clearly 
shows both side and front laces.


Linda Yordy
Phone: 208/426-4034
Boise State University
Center for Management Development
1910 University Drive
Boise, ID  83725-1660
********************************************************
Yordy's Law #3: When wearing white, apply your lunch 
directly to your shirt -- it will end up there anyway.
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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Mon Oct 18 16:32:57 1999
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-Poster: Appin1@aol.com

That was "Restoration". I was impressed by the costuming. To think that Sam 
Neill could actually wear petticoat breeches & a waist-length wig and NOT 
look silly....

I think my favorite is "Dangerous Liaisons" wiht "Wings of the Dove" second.

Kathleen Norvell
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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Mon Oct 18 16:42:16 1999
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-Poster: Appin1@aol.com

I think Sandy Powell tends to go for the fantastical, or at least 
exaggerated, over the accurate (Don't get me started on "Rob Roy"...-- the 
English costumes were fine, but the Scottish costumes -- ouch!). Certainly 
her costumes for "Orlando" were exaggerated, as were those for "Interview". 
"Wings of the Dove" was gorgeous, however. I'm never sure what she's trying 
to accomplish in her costuming.

Kathleen Norvell
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-Poster: Margo Anderson <margo@directcon.net>

Zefferelli's Romeo and Juliet.


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-Poster: Appin1@aol.com

I have a postcard of an early 16th century painting (Italian, I think, but I 
can check) that shows a lady from the back view. Her bodice is laced at the 
side. 

I will check the reference at home.

Kathleen Norvell
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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Mon Oct 18 16:56:35 1999
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-Poster: AlbertCat@aol.com

In a message dated 10/18/1999 5:56:08 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
Appin1@aol.com writes:

<< 
 I think Sandy Powell tends to go for the fantastical, or at least 
 exaggerated, over the accurate (Don't get me started on "Rob Roy"...-- the 
 English costumes were fine, but the Scottish costumes -- ouch!). Certainly 
 her costumes for "Orlando" were exaggerated, as were those for "Interview". 
 "Wings of the Dove" was gorgeous, however. I'm never sure what she's trying 
 to accomplish in her costuming.
  >>

Y'know she also did Michael Collins. Exaggerated?

In Vampire it's clear that living, breathing people are usually depicted in 
natural linens, rusts, yellows, oranges....warm colors. Vampires are 
generally in purples, strange greens, deep blues and sparkle or glitter 
unnaturally. Claudia wears a pink dress with clunky padded appliqué at the 
hem.....an artificial costume of deception in the "wrong" color.... for when 
she deceives & kills Lestat. 

And Wings of the Dove is not as exaggerated as you might think. Her choices 
are for the then very popular avant garde very wealthy of the day. Besides, 
when else are you gonna get to put someone in Pioret hostess pajamas?

Orlando is very styalized....but of course it is....look at what it's about.

Seems clear to me.

Have you seen Velvet Gold Mine? [Not a good film, alas] What did you think?
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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Mon Oct 18 18:26:56 1999
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Subject: Re: H-COST: Favorite Costume Designers
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-Poster: MzScahlett@aol.com

What about

"Jefferson In Paris" (awful flick, but I loved the costumes when I was 
watching it)  No idea if they were more than superfically period.

To reiterate my faves from those previously offfered up 
Restoration
Romeo & Juliet (Zefferelli)
Elizabeth (transformation at the end was captivating)
& Shakespeare in Love (I know they're not perfect, but oh that overcloak worn 
by Lord Wessex(?) before he attacks young Will in the theater! delicious!)

Most abominable

Anything seen in Bonanza (what kind of corsets WERE those anyway?  the 
"authentic" 1950's pointy chested kind?)

+++++
Angela F. Lazear
Costumes & Custom Clothing
Theatrical Costume Design
"All the world's a stage, 
and all the men and women merely players.
They have their exits and their entrances; 
and one man in his time plays many parts."
W. Shakespeare
QUICK-LINK: http://come.to/costumes
FULL URL: http://sj.znet.com/~thespian/angil/index.html
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Subject: Re: H-COST: Favorite Costume Designers
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-Poster: MzScahlett@aol.com

In a message dated 10/18/1999 3:12:14 PM Pacific Daylight Time, 
AlbertCat@aol.com writes:

<< In Vampire it's clear that living, breathing people are usually depicted 
in 
 natural linens, rusts, yellows, oranges....warm colors. Vampires are 
 generally in purples, strange greens, deep blues and sparkle or glitter 
 unnaturally. Claudia wears a pink dress with clunky padded appliqué at the 
 hem.....an artificial costume of deception in the "wrong" color.... for when 
 she deceives & kills Lestat.  >>

This is my favorite feature of being a costumer.  Being able to paint the 
actors like scenery, if you will, with color schemes and fabrics that tell us 
about them, or mislead us a bit, as in the case of the young and tragically 
undead Claudia.  There is so much artistic joy in the creation of a "look".  
I think Sandy Powell is a goddess to worship, but that's just mnsho!

angela

+++++
Angela F. Lazear
Costumes & Custom Clothing
Theatrical Costume Design
"What fates impose, that men must needs abide; It boots not to resist both 
wind and tide."
King Henry VI, Part III, IV, iii - W. Shakespeare
QUICK-LINK:  http://come.to/costumes
FULL URL:  http://sj.znet.com/~thespian/angil/index.html



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Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 19:41:17 -0700
From: Freya <jns-shadow@home.com>
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Subject: Re: H-COST: bodice lacing
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-Poster: Freya <jns-shadow@home.com>

DRGurley@aol.com wrote:
> 
> -Poster: DRGurley@aol.com
> 
> I've been lurking for a while now and since the topic of lacing has come up,
> thought I'd ask my curiosity question:
> 
> It's my understanding that a corset was worn over the chemise and under the
> bodice of Elizabethan costumes of all but peasant level. Is this accurate?
> I've seen many posts about gap between the laces--both front and back--and am
> wondering how one keeps the corset from showing between the laces.
> 
> All my bodices lace tightly closed over my corset. Are there alternatives?
> 
> I'm also interested in making a front lace bodice with a detachable stomacher
> so that a) I can lace into myself, b)it will give me several options for
> combinations (peasant, merchant class, etc).  Any thoughts and/or tips would
> be appreciated.
> 
> Thanks!
> Dani G

De-Lurking to add:
I've been seeing a number of lacing styles for bodices at my local
renfair which is set in 1526. Most of the "Nobles" bodices lace only in
the back. Lately, I have been seeing more with two panels that are laced
at the sides Some with separate shoulder straps that can be laced to the
bodice. The "Peasant/Wench" bodices are laced in the front with or
without boning with varying amounts of heavage displayed. Is there
documentation for the front peasant lacing? What are your thoughts on
the two panel method?

If the bodicee is boned and no corset is used is it alright to let the
boning channels (stiching) show on the outside? I have some light weight
bones that are too flexible, will it cause problems if I put 2 bones in
each channel?    

Answers to any or all of my questions eagerly accepted. Let me know if
my descriptions were not clear enough.

Thanks
-- 
Freya

Abair ach beag, is abair gu math e.
Say but little, and say it well.
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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Mon Oct 18 18:29:53 1999
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Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 13:14:13 +0000
From: Dietmar <dietmar@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: H-COST: Period Patterns
To: h-costume@indra.com
Cc: "KaraleeLarsenPugmire" <Francesca.da.Bari@usa.net>
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-Poster: Dietmar <dietmar@pacbell.net>

Greetings,

Francesca wrote:

> May I turn the direction of your critism to Period Patterns?

Ok, but it could be dangerous. ;-)

> I am particularly intersted in the late style tunics (1200's) in Pattern #16.
> I am really a novice at period cutting styles. I've looked at the web sites
> and books that show line drawins of archeological finds, I've even tried
> using these cutting styles in clothes for my daughter's barbies. Though the
> clothes look really good on the dolls, I'm a little intimidated about trying
> to cut into a peice of fabric that has cost more than I had a right to spend.
> (We are at the struggling, but have to make clothes and armor stage.)

You're much, much, much better off doing the cutting in a period style. It's
easier. It will look better. It will fit better. You'll be less frustrated. It
will be more authentic. Everyone will be happy. :-)

If you are afraid to jump right in with your expensive fabric, do a mock up of
the period pattern in el cheapo fabric (hey, look I speak Spanish!). You can
check your pattern and make adjustments before cutting your expensive yardage.
Also, the period method is MUCH more conservative of fabric. (At 6'1", I can
make a floor length tunic with 4 yards of 45" fabric with the period cut.)

> The other day when I was looking at a suggested web site I saw this pattern
> by Period Patterns and wondered what you all think of them. They are too
> expensive for me to just buy one and see. Is it a good step from the
> Simplicity type pattern toward blindly cutting into a peice of $10 a yard
> fabric and knowing it's going to look good and that I won't be giving it
> away a year later because I hate the way it fits and the fact that it's
> really not that period?

This was the first pattern that I used. I used it once, swore at it, crumpled
it up and have never used it again. Do yourself a favor and don't waste your
money on it. According to the size chart on the back, my chest size is a
Medium, and my height is an XXL. The cut is totally inauthentic and very
confusing. It is also very wasteful of fabric.

My suggestion is that you take measurements and use the period rectilinear
construction methods. Do a mock up in cheap fabric first before trying it with
more expensive fabric. You can even do three steps; a mock up in cheap waste
fabric, a first try in inexpensive fabric, and then try the perfected pattern
with the expensive fabric. This way you will not waste any valuable fabric on
your first try, you will have an inexpensive first piece of 'real garb' (which
you can still use, even if it's not perfect), and you will have worked out the
bugs and built your confidence before cutting into your expensive fabric.

If you have any other questions, feel free to ask.

Good luck,

Dietmar


"Victory or Defeat rests in God's hands;
 over Honor, we ourselves are Lord and Master."


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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Mon Oct 18 18:33:17 1999
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From: Melanie Schuessler <melanie@faucet.net>
Subject: H-COST: book review request
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-Poster: Melanie Schuessler <melanie@faucet.net>

Has anyone seen or purchased this book?

The Man of Fashion:  Peacock Males and Perfect Gentlemen
 by Colin McDowell

The blurb claims that it covers ostentation in men's dress, 16th-20th
century.  It sounds intriguing, but I'm not ready to buy it without knowing
a little more.

Thanks
Melanie


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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Mon Oct 18 18:49:00 1999
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From: "Megan McHugh" <mmchugh@starpower.net>
To: <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: H-COST: COS Real Folkloric costumes from Turkey etc (fwd)
Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 20:01:34 -0400
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-Poster: "Megan McHugh" <mmchugh@starpower.net>

Got anything from Poland or Czechoslovakia?  Prussia?  I would be interested
in these, as they are   parts of my heritage.  And would the price break my
wallet?
-----Original Message-----
From: Ioana Timariu <ioana@yucc.yorku.ca>
To: h-costume-digest@indra.com <h-costume-digest@indra.com>
Date: Monday, October 18, 1999 10:49 AM
Subject: H-COST: COS Real Folkloric costumes from Turkey etc (fwd)


>
>-Poster: Ioana Timariu <ioana@yucc.yorku.ca>
>
>
>Hello! Thought some of you might appreciate this:
>
>---------- Forwarded message ----------
>Date: Mon, 11 Oct 1999 15:15:17 -0700
>From: "Faint, Kylie" <KFaint@sempra.com>
>Reply-To: med-dance@europe.std.com
>To: med-dance@world.std.com
>Subject: COS Real Folkloric costumes from Turkey etc
>
>X-33208-Poster:  "Faint, Kylie" <KFaint@sempra.com>
>
>Hi list,
>
>An "International Gallery" in my neighbourhood is closing down, and they
>have some *awesome* folkloric outfits for sale, which were part of a
>travelling exhibition they did in the US & Canada - these are museum
quality
>costumes!
>
>I've been wracking my brain trying to think who might appreciate these, to
>little avail, so I'm just throwing the info out there, in case anyone's
>interested.
>
>The costume I looked at (they are all bagged up) was 13 pieces, for a
>particular village in Turkey.  It had everything from underwear (very cute
>bloomer type undies!), tunic, apron, vest, jacket, shawls, headpiece &
>jewelry, even a set of kashiklar (dancing spoons)!  The owner phoned me up
>today, and said that he might be able to swing me a special deal, since he
>knows I'm genuinely interested in the stuff.  I am, but I'm wondering what
I
>would do with a collection of authentic folk costumes :)  I don't know
where
>all the costumes are from, as I only looked at one.  The shop has garments
>from Syria, Morroco, Egypt, Afghanistan etc also.
>
>I guess thats all, just had to pass this info on to someone!!
>
>Kylie
>KFaint@Sempra.com
>
>--
>X-To-Get-Help-File: re list & assoc. info (graphics, lyrics, digests, etc),
>email dancers-archive@world.std.com w/ SUBJECT: 'help med-dance'. Body
ignored.
>
>

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From: Melanie Schuessler <melanie@faucet.net>
Subject: Re: H-COST: Favorite Costume Designers
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-Poster: Melanie Schuessler <melanie@faucet.net>

>-Poster: MzScahlett@aol.com
>Most abominable
>
>Anything seen in Bonanza (what kind of corsets WERE those anyway?  the
>"authentic" 1950's pointy chested kind?)

Oh, but haven't you seen the authentic pointy-chested 18th-century corsets
in Scaramouche??

;)
Melanie


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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Mon Oct 18 19:00:45 1999
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Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 19:14:45 -0500
To: h-costume@indra.com
From: Melanie Schuessler <melanie@faucet.net>
Subject: Re: H-COST: cyclas sources (Terminology)
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-Poster: Melanie Schuessler <melanie@faucet.net>

>-Poster: Marc Carlson <marc-carlson@utulsa.edu>

>Here we are.  Matthew of Paris, in describing the wedding and coronation
>of Eleanor to Henry III in 1236 "...sericis vestimentis ornati, cicladibus
>auro textus circumdati, ..."  Well, hmm.  After checking with my Latin
>resources, this looks like *either* "silken ornate garments, encircled (in
>the manner of a cyclas) with golden made stuff" *or* "silken ornate garments,
>encircled (in the manner of the Cyclades). with golden made stuff".  I'm
>thinking the former.
>
>That means that unless better information turns up, it *could* be that
>Norris screwed it up.

I tend to be somewhat skeptical of Norris, but I'm sure not everything in
his books is wrong--still, best to just find the original sources, yes?

So according to Matthew of Paris, we have something decorated in the manner
of a cyclas (or the Cyclades, but let's go with cyclas for now, as it seems
likelier to you).  So at this point we know that a cyclas is decorated with
golden made stuff.

Where did the rest of this misinformation come from?  Did some of the 20th
century authors actually go for period sources and that's why the
definition shifted, or were they all relying on 19th century texts and
unwittingly participated in some sort of linguistic drift?

We've heard about people's favorite sources.  I'm interested to hear what's
on everyone's "notorious sources" shelf (especially Robin's--sounds like
you have a bunch!)--those books that are for the most part untrustworthy in
part or as a whole.  Because not everyone can be an expert in everything, I
think it might be useful to have a gentle warning about those sources we
should use only with extreme caution.

Melanie


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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Mon Oct 18 19:13:11 1999
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From: "Penny Ladnier" <penny.creative.outlets@erols.com>
To: <h-costume@indra.com>
References: <0.b18f8e76.253ccd1f@aol.com>
Subject: Re: H-COST: Favorite Costuming in Movies (long list)
Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 20:29:39 -0400
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-Poster: "Penny Ladnier" <penny.creative.outlets@erols.com>

You all, I love movies so here is part of my real list, (I tried not to
repeat ones mentioned all ready).  I have been compiling my list for awhile.

--Somewhere in Time (it was on TV again last night), designer Jean-Pierre
Dorléac.
--The Great Gatsby, designer Theoni V. Aldredge.
--Recent version of A Midsummer Nights Dream, designer Gabriella Pescucci.
--The Great Ziegfeld (my favorite for historic and fantasy costumes),
designer Adrian
--Silverado, designer Kristi Zea
--Recent version of Last of the Mohicans ( :) Albert Cat), designer Elsa
Zamparelli
--Can help but love the costumes in Monty Python and the Holy Grail,
designer Hazel Pethig
--Meet Me in St. Louis, designer Irene Sharaff
--Lonesome Dove (yes, TV, it was too long for the big screen), designer Van
Broughton Ramsey
--Excalibur, designer Bob Ringwood
--Forrest Gump, designer Joanna Johnston
--Eve's Bayou, designer Karyn Wagner (II)
--Austin Powers #I & #2, designer Deena Appel
--Pleasantville, designer Judianna Makovsky
--Amercian Graffiti, designer Aggie Guerard Rodgers
--Can't think of the Name of the film but it was about an efficiency expert
and he had about thirteen children.  The swimsuits were wonderful!
--Music Man (was good for a musical), designer Dorothy Jeakins
--Grease  (was good for a musical), designer Albert Wolsky
--Now and Then, designer Deena Appel
--Cross Creek, designer Joe I. Tompkins
--Night Shift (1982 version), designer Jodie Lynn Tillen
--Rasputin (HBO movie)
--Lust for Life (story of Van Gogh), designer Walter Plunkett
--Fanny and Alexander, designer Marik Vos-Lundh
--Schindler's List, designer Anna B. Sheppard
--Little Women, designer Colleen Atwood
--Victor, Victoria (not sure how accurate, but loved the costumes), designer
Patricia Norris
--Bonnie and Clyde, designer Theadora Van Runkle
--The Sting, designer Edith Head
--Lion Out of Africa


Some movies that I love that had good costumes that provided representation
of current fashion or what would become fashionable during the time:
--The Philadelphia Story, designer Adrian
--American Gigolo, designer Giorgio Armani (suits)
--Saturday Night Fever, designer Patrizia von Brandenstein
--Urban Cowboy (Boy, this was hard to admit that it was a fashion)
--Xanadu (the mix of costumes, spoke of the transition in fashion at the
time), designer Bobbie Mannix
--Three Coins in a Fountain, designer Dorothy Jeakins
--Woodstock, designer, The Crowd!
--Love Story, designer Alice Manougan Martin & Pearl Somner
--Annie Hall, designer Ralph Lauren & Ruth Morley
--Wayne's World, (those jeans with the knees out), designer Pat Tonnema
Hippie Musicals of the 1960s & 70s:
--Jesus Christ Superstar (chorus), designer Yvonne Blake
--Hair, designer Ann Roth
--Godspell, designers Sherrie Sucher & Susan Tsu
--The Breakfast Club (they are making a new one), designer Marilyn
Vance-Straker
--St. Elmo's Fire, designer Susan Becker

My list goes on and on...

I will be starting an email list soon on Movie Costumes.  I am just trying
to come up with an identifical name for it.  I'll let you know when I get it
up.

Later... Penny
http://www.costumegallery.com





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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Mon Oct 18 19:13:52 1999
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-Poster: AlbertCat@aol.com

In a message dated 10/18/1999 7:25:22 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
MzScahlett@aol.com writes:

<< Anything seen in Bonanza (what kind of corsets WERE those anyway?  the 
 "authentic" 1950's pointy chested kind?)
  >>

And the eye makeup!

In all fairness to TV it must be understood that they have very little time & 
not as much money compared to film. [Britain has less of a problem in this 
respect....mainly I think due to the way they teach costuming: with a respect 
for what is "correct" over being a fashion designer of some kind] Extras & 
walk-ons often look more correct than leads because they are pulled from 
studio stocks....ironic, huh? I mean the Cartwrights didn't change clothes 
for 10 years!
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Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 20:41:40 EDT
Subject: Re: H-COST: bodice lacing
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In a message dated 10/18/1999 7:45:12 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
jns-shadow@home.com writes:

<< 
 If the bodicee is boned and no corset is used is it alright to let the
 boning channels (stiching) show on the outside? I have some light weight
 bones that are too flexible, will it cause problems if I put 2 bones in
 each channel?    
  >>

I would say no. The casing should not show....except maybe the ones at the 
edge of pieces that lace together. I would also not bone the bodice until you 
have proper bones....rigelene or better, steel bones. You may order them from 

Greenberg & Hammer 1-800-955-5135

Ask for a catalogue.  In mine the 1/2" steel are .60 to.65 a piece or $3.40 
to $4.10 a dozen. See....not bad. They come in 1/2" increments of length so 
figure out just how many of each length you need or just get the longest & 
cut & tip them.....but then you have to get tipping fluid. It depends on how 
many you need.
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Subject: Re: H-COST: Favorite Costuming in Movies (long list)
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In a message dated 10/18/1999 8:28:29 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
penny.creative.outlets@erols.com writes:

<< -Recent version of Last of the Mohicans ( :) Albert Cat), designer Elsa
 Zamparelli >>

She finished up after James Acheson was driven away by Michael Mann but most 
all the European costumes were Jame's. Elsa did Dances with Wolves which 
looks quite good.....too bad it's sooooo boring...zzzzzzzzzzzzz.
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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Mon Oct 18 19:34:19 1999
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-Poster: Susan Fatemi <susanf@netwiz.net>

Penny Ladnier wrote:
> 
> -Poster: "Penny Ladnier" <penny.creative.outlets@erols.com>
> 
> You all, I love movies so here is part of my real list, (I tried not to
> repeat ones mentioned all ready).  I have been compiling my list for awhile.
> 

Didn't anyone else like Kundun and 7 Years in Tibet for the
costumes?? They were as authentic as possible and had real
Tibetans to correct them when they weren't. It's a way of life
that's lost -- it was nice to see it captured on film for a
little while. 

Susan F.

-- 
Oh Noh! Kimonos!
susanf@netwiz.net
http://www.netwiz.net/~susanf
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-Poster: AlbertCat@aol.com

In a message dated 10/18/1999 8:50:43 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
susanf@netwiz.net writes:

<< 
 Didn't anyone else like Kundun and 7 Years in Tibet for the
 costumes?? They were as authentic as possible and had real
 Tibetans to correct them when they weren't. It's a way of life
 that's lost -- it was nice to see it captured on film for a
 little while. 
  >>
I know...we're so occidental!
No one's mentioned 
Ran
or
The Last Emperor
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Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 20:14:44 -0500 (CDT)
From: marc-carlson@utulsa.edu
Subject: Re: H-COST: cyclas sources (Terminology)
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<Melanie Schuessler <melanie@faucet.net>
> I tend to be somewhat skeptical of Norris, but I'm 
> sure not everything in his books is wrong--still, best 
> to just find the original sources, yes?

To be fair, I would have checked, even if it hadn't been 
Norris.

> So according to Matthew of Paris, we have something 
> decorated in the manner of a cyclas (or the Cyclades, 
> but let's go with cyclas for now, as it seems
> likelier to you).  So at this point we know that a 
> cyclas is decorated with golden made stuff.

Or we know that these garments were decorated around, 
like a cyclas (i.e., "encircled" by decoration around 
the edges), and in this case that decoration was with 
golden stuff (tacky gold lame' trim or something, 
maybe).

> Where did the rest of this misinformation come from?

I don't have a clue.  At least some of the "Victorian"  
authors had one definition, which the OED continues to 
support, and others had another.

> Did some of the 20th century authors actually go for 
> period sources and that's why the definition shifted, 
> or were they all relying on 19th century texts and
> unwittingly participated in some sort of linguistic 
> drift?

The problem is that I believe (and this is really an 
opinion, since I can't back it up with clear facts) that 
 "linguistic evolution" as a description is really only 
 valid only for current things, not historical things.
If I manage to convince enough people that their 
automobiles should be called "wampuses" that it takes 
hold, then great, that's evolution of the language.  If 
I try to tell you that Henry Ford made it rich with his 
black snuggly-pop machine, and that "model T" was the 
name of his cat, and that anyone who tells you 
differently is a boob -- that's not really "evolving" 
the language.  That's re-writing the past.

If "Cyclas" was used in the Middle Ages to refer to 
anything other than the traditional Greek and Roman 
("woman's garment edged in something"), I'm not sure 
we've seen it.  It may have been used to refer to a 
tight-fitting tunic or bodice (as per the 1860 source, 
which I haven't found yet), but even so, that's a far 
cry from the men's open-armed tabard for armor, much 
less the sideless surcote (By the way, this is not 
intended as a plea for people to stop using the term to 
refer to sideless surcotes.  It's a term learned in good 
faith, and we still haven't proven that it never was 
used in that fashion).

> We've heard about people's favorite sources.  I'm 
> interested to hear what's on everyone's "notorious 
> sources" shelf (especially Robin's--sounds like
> you have a bunch!)--those books that are for the most 
> part untrustworthy in part or as a whole...

It's a nice idea.  OTOH, *most* works have problems, in 
part or in whole.  The OED for example is deeply flawed 
by b) the fact that the vast majority of its definions 
were written by Victorian scholars b) many of whom 
missed references when something first appeared, c) or
just plain didn't always know what they were talking 
about, but d) there is an aura of perfection about it.  
I'd say it's about a 98% good source, but I'm likely to 
be accused of being generous.

If you don't mind, I actually was annotating part of a 
bibliography when this question came up, so I will pass 
along some of what I have.  If you disagree with any of 
these, please tell me...

(Boucher, Françoise.  20000 Years of Fashion. New York: 
Abrams, 1966)  I am under the impression this is a 
beloved source, and it does seem pretty good.  There are 
a few mistakes here and there in the text (mostly of 
typographical), but keeping that in mind it seems pretty 
reliable.

(Davies, Stephanie.  Costume Language, a Dictionary of 
Dress Terms. Malvern: Cresselles Pub.Co.Ltd., 1994)
The author of this work died before the final work was 
finished, and so I shouldn't criticize the work too 
badly as I have no idea what it would have been like had 
she lived.  On the other hand, what we have has some 
problems, not the least of which is credibility.  There 
are sufficient flaws in the topics I do know about, that 
using her for the things I don't know about makes me a 
bit leery.

(Hill, Margot, and Peter Bucknell, Evolution of Fashion, 
New York Drama Book Specialists 1981, c1967)
A lovely beginner's book and written to present the 
information, pre-digested to an audience that doesn't 
have time to mess with research.  For that reason, the 
authors don't cite their material, and it's practically 
impossible to back track their work.  If you are doing 
historical costumes, use the book -- if you are 
researching historical accuracy, use with caution.

(Köhler, Karl, A History of Costume. ed. & aug. by Emma 
von Sichart, trans. by Alexander K. Dallas.  New York : 
Dover Publications, 1963)
A standard work among amateurs.  What doesn't seem to be 
generally realized is that it is a reprint of a 1928 
text, translated from an 1870s German original 
(Praktische Kostümkunde), with some stuff tossed in to 
make it up to date for 1928.

(Norris, Herbert.  Costume and Fashion, Volume Two. 
Senlac to Bosworth. London: Dent, 1927)
I confess to a weakness.  I like Norris.  His work on 
ecclesiastical clothing is really well done enough to 
make me willing to forgive some of the flaws in this 
more general survey -- and this is a deeply flawed work. 
 The text is easy to digest, the pictures are pretty, 
and not generally innaccurate. Conversely, he's 
responsible for some of the worst information to be 
transmitted to costumers.  He doesn't cite the work 
particularly well, or particularly throughly, and there 
I have heard people accuse him of making material up.  I 
wouldn't go THAT far, but I would suggest that if all 
you are doing is simple historical costumes, use the 
book if you want to -- if you are researching historical 
accuracy, use with caution.  In either case, don't brag 
about it, or else you may get to hear all sorts of nasty 
things.

Marc
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Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 21:20:15 -0700
From: "David S. Mallinak" <matchlck@erols.com>
Organization: Red Dragon Enterprises
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-Poster: "David S. Mallinak" <matchlck@erols.com>

Susannah Eanes wrote:

> I have access to the inventory of an old store that contains, among
> other wonderful things, original late 18th - early 19th c. silk
> stockings & corsets in their original boxes.  I don't know how they
> have stood up to the decades of being stored away in an
> unheated/uncooled store attic warehouse, but they sure look & feel
> pretty good to me.  The owner is currently assessing these items for
> sale either in lots or as one whole.  If anyone is interested in
> finding out more, please e-mail me privately.

I am just starting to clear my H-COST message when I say your offer.

If it is not to late please add my name and address to those who are
interested

David S. Mallinak
matchlck@erol.com

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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Mon Oct 18 20:35:07 1999
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Subject: Re: H-COST: indian traveller 1515
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-Poster: Susan Fatemi <susanf@netwiz.net>

R.L. Shep wrote:
> 
> I have forwarded your request to Irene Joshi the South Asian Librarian
> at the University of Washington Library. Clothing is one of her
> specialties. In case you want to contact her directly her email is
> joshi@u.washington.edu

But could we all hear the answer please?? I would be very
interested, myself.

> A question from me: what would a well-to-do Indian (and I mean the
> Asian sub-continent) traveller to 1515 Europe wear? It's just before
> Moghul rule and I suppose he would have been Hindu. Would he, f.i.,

He would not have to be a Hindu. The Delhi Sultanate (est. ca.
1200 AD) for example, predates the Moghul "invasion" and the earliest
Moslem incursions into the subcontinent (Sind) was in 711. (I'm
looking in a book on architectural inscriptions, not costume,
unfortunately)

If he's going to be a Hindu, he could be a Rajput -- they wore
nice clothes, not those diaperish looking dhoti things. (what
can I say, I prefer cut-and-sewn garments to wrapped and draped)

> aquire western type clothes on the long and slow way west and combine
> these with some of his native dress, or would he be conservative, or,
> on the other hand, completely do away with his things and go
> Habsburg/late burgundian/landsknecht (he is not a military person,
> though).

Ugh. Then what's the point of having him be Indian?? 
The one book I have with any info on historic Indian
costumes implies that an upper class *Northern* Indian
man would have worn a costume similar to a Persian of
the same status. So that might be a place to start. 

I hope there's lots of responses on this one!

Susan F.
-- 
Oh Noh! Kimonos!
susanf@netwiz.net
http://www.netwiz.net/~susanf
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-Poster: "K & J Hopkins" <khopkins@cyberhighway.net>


>I mean the Cartwrights didn't change clothes for 10 years!

That is funny.  My grandmother loved Bonanza, and we would watch it every
week.  She would often comment on how much she hated that green coat Little
Joe wore and wonder why they wouldn't let him wear anything else.

Kathlene
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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Mon Oct 18 20:39:57 1999
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-Poster: kat@grendal.rain.com


> The Man of Fashion:  Peacock Males and Perfect Gentlemen
>  by Colin McDowell
> 
> The blurb claims that it covers ostentation in men's dress, 16th-20th
> century.  It sounds intriguing, but I'm not ready to buy it without knowing
> a little more.

I got to see it this weekend. I plan on buying it, but then, I 
collect costume books. It seemed to have a rather gay emphasis, 
however. If that bothers you, you don't want it. It draws parallels 
from various times in history. I found it very interesting.


Kat 

Kat(June Russell)
kat@grendal.rain.com
Heu! Tintinnuntius meus Sonat!
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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Mon Oct 18 20:43:47 1999
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-Poster: Susan Fatemi <susanf@netwiz.net>

AlbertCat@aol.com wrote:
> 
> I know...we're so occidental!
> No one's mentioned
> Ran
> or
> The Last Emperor

Oh, I thought Last Emperor had been mentioned. Both Eastern
and Western clothes were wonderful.

Ran was great, but there are so many Japanese movies.
I just thought it was great that someone had done Tibetan.

And speaking of Orlando, I loved the movie, but the "Prince"
in Uzbekistan (or wherever it was supposed to be) was all
wrong!  Was he a eunuch? He had no facial hair at all, and
his clothing looked like it was left over from Thief of
Baghdad.

Cheers,

Susan

-- 
Oh Noh! Kimonos!
susanf@netwiz.net
http://www.netwiz.net/~susanf
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-Poster: kat@grendal.rain.com

Regarding 18th Century and Valmont:
> All I can tell you is that she played her character as much to the letter
> of what she found. One of the interesteing things she found was that cross
> dressing for females was exclusive to the courtesans. Sorry I could not be
> much more help than that.

That's interesting. It certainly wasn't the case for 16th Century. 
There are many instances where women crossdressed, often just for the 
fun of it, including notable women who are not necessarily notorious, 
such as Mary Queen of Scots and Elizabeth I. They were known as  
Roaring Girls.  Plays were written about some of the ones who did so. 
I have a playbill copy of one called "He-she." . 

Kat 

Kat(June Russell)
kat@grendal.rain.com
Heu! Tintinnuntius meus Sonat!
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Subject: Re: H-COST: Favorite Costuming in Movies (long list)
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-Poster: Margo Anderson <margo@directcon.net>

At 08:29 PM 10/18/1999 -0400, you wrote:
>
>-Poster: "Penny Ladnier" <penny.creative.outlets@erols.com>
>
>Y
>--Can't think of the Name of the film but it was about an efficiency expert
>and he had about thirteen children. 

Cheaper By the Dozen.

Margo


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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Mon Oct 18 21:02:56 1999
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Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 21:47:09 -0700
From: "David S. Mallinak" <matchlck@erols.com>
Organization: Red Dragon Enterprises
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To: h-costume@indra.com, lib_imc@centum.utulsa.edu
Subject: Re: H-COST: Shoes in History question
References: <990416115613.12822b@centum.utulsa.edu>
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-Poster: "David S. Mallinak" <matchlck@erols.com>

"I. Marc Carlson" wrote:

> Hi, it's me again.  I am trying to find factual evidence of what types of shoes were
> being worn in Byzantium, Coptic Egypt, the ancient Near East, the Steppes, and the
> Ancient Far East.  Basically, I'm currently out of leads since it appears that no one
> has dug any up, or bothered to discuss them.  However, since I am moving into things
> beyond my normal areas of research, I may just be missing the literature -- so I am
> asking for help.  Any help.  I would prefer archaeology over pictures, contemporary art
> over something made up for a costuming book, you know - the basic drill :)

A friend visted West Germany about ten years ago and brought back a catalog of exhibt of
shoes.  Nearly 100 pages of pictures of shoes from England, Germany and Russia.  I use it
just for the pictures of shoes and the years.  As I do not read German (and do not know
anyone who is will to translate the captions) it is about all I can.  If the information
is usefull maybe you can locate another copy.  I have very little idea what it says but
what would be the publisher I have copied what appears to usefull information
therefore....

Deutsches Ledermuseum Katolog Heft 6

Deutsches Schuhmuseum  1979

KATALOG des DEUSCHEN LEDERMUSUEM mit dem angeschlossenen DEUTSCHEN SCHMUSEUM

...

Heft 6 Deutsches Schuhmuseum 1. Auflage 1980. Katalog der Sonderausstellung,,Market in
der Sahel 1979.

David S Mallinak
matchlck@erols.com


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Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 19:16:42 -0700
From: Susan Fatemi <susanf@netwiz.net>
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Subject: Re: H-COST: Chinese headscarves for men?
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-Poster: Susan Fatemi <susanf@netwiz.net>

KATHARINE WHISLER wrote:
> 
> -Poster: KATHARINE WHISLER <KWHISLER@kentlaw.edu>
> 
> Recently, the man in my life asked me to make him an early (Tang
> Dynasty, say) costume to wear to an SCA event.  After looking at a bunch
> of art books, I think I have it covered, but there is one thing that still
> really mystifies me.
> 
> Apparently, many of these men are wearing what looks like a hat but is
> actually a black scarf tied over a topknot.  According to "5000 Years of

Did you find out any more about these "turban"??
Someone I know is thinking about a costume, and this could
be useful info!

Susan F.


-- 
Oh Noh! Kimonos!
susanf@netwiz.net
http://www.netwiz.net/~susanf
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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Mon Oct 18 21:17:19 1999
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From: "Karie Mitchell" <allessandre@hotmail.com>
To: h-costume@indra.com
Subject: Re: H-COST: side-laced bodices
Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 19:30:56 PDT
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-Poster: "Karie Mitchell" <allessandre@hotmail.com>

>From: "Linda Yordy" <abuyordy@cobfac.BoiseState.edu>
>Actually, I've found a painting using both front and side lacing. >It's 
>Cosimo Tura's "Spring" from c. 1460.

And there is another one done by Piero della Francesca called "la Madonna 
del parto" which shows both front and side lacing on the gown.
>
>You can find it at the Web Gallery Search:
>http://www.kfki.hu/~arthp/search.html

Ditto.  (But look under Piero della Francesca, religious paintings, 
madonna).

Karie (AKA Allessandre)

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Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 21:43:08 -0500 (CDT)
From: marc-carlson@utulsa.edu
Subject: Re: H-COST: Shoes in History question
In-reply-to: <199910190215.UAA23808@net.indra.com>
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-Poster: marc-carlson@utulsa.edu


<"David S. Mallinak" <matchlck@erols.com>>
>> Hi, it's me again.  I am trying to find factual 
>> evidence of what types of shoes were being worn in 
>> Byzantium, Coptic Egypt, the ancient Near East, the
>> Steppes, and the Ancient Far East...
> A friend visted West Germany about ten years ago and 
> brought back a catalog of exhibt of shoes.  Nearly 100 
> pages of pictures of shoes from England, Germany and
> Russia...KATALOG des DEUSCHEN LEDERMUSUEM mit dem 
> angeschlossenen DEUTSCHEN SCHMUSEUM...

Thank you.  I will see if I can find this one.

Marc

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To: h-costume@indra.com
From: "Carol J. Bell Cannon" <cjcannon@greymists.com>
Subject: Re: H-COST: Favorite Costuming in Movies (long list)
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-Poster: "Carol J. Bell Cannon" <cjcannon@greymists.com>

At 08:52 PM 10/18/1999 -0400, you wrote: -Poster: AlbertCat@aol.com
>Ran
           Incredible film.  I loved something I watched as a television
series on Japanese Theater nights for months.  They anglicized the title
as:  "The Shadow Warriors", but it is not the one by Kurosawa ... [et al.].
 If I knew the real title and could find a copy, [I understand it was a 14
hour film that ran in segments in Japan originally.] I would buy it ASA
humanly P. Carol
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Subject: Re: H-COST: Favorite Costuming in Movies (long list)
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-Poster: AliaClaire@aol.com

In a message dated 10/18/99 8:28:11 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
penny.creative.outlets@erols.com writes:

<< --Can't think of the Name of the film but it was about an efficiency expert
 and he had about thirteen children.  The swimsuits were wonderful! >>

Cheeper by the Dozen. The sequal is Bells on Their Toes. The books are fab- 
never seen the movie.

-Alison Stacy
acstacy@cc.owu.edu
aliaclaire@aol.com
Delaware, Ohio
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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Mon Oct 18 22:45:05 1999
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Subject: Re: H-COST: Favorite Costuming in Movies 
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-Poster: MzScahlett@aol.com

In a message dated 10/18/1999 17:29:09 Pacific Daylight Time, 
penny.creative.outlets@erols.com writes:

<< -Can't think of the Name of the film but it was about an efficiency expert
 and he had about thirteen children.  The swimsuits were wonderful! >>

Could you mean "Cheaper by the Dozen", with Clifton Webb & Myrna Loy?  Made 
in the 50s and set in the 20s??

angela

+++++
Angela F. Lazear
Costumes & Custom Clothing
Theatrical Costume Design
"O, what a world of vile ill-favored faults  looks handsome in three hundred 
pounds a year!..."
The Merry Wives of Windsor, III, iv - W. Shakespeare

QUICK-LINK: http://come.to/costumes
FULL URL:  http://sj.znet.com/~thespian/angil/index.html
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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Mon Oct 18 22:47:33 1999
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Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 00:05:03 -0400
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Subject: Re: H-COST: Japanese hakama patterns
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-Poster: Janice Dallas <janicedals@mediaone.net>

For the person who asked me what hakama pants looked like, I put the
Folkwear pattern pictures on my website.

http://people.ne.mediaone.net/janicedals/temporary/hakama.html

For the others who wanted the formula, it's really Folkwear's formula,so
I can't just give it to you.  We changed it slightly since we start
before their sizes and extend past them.  We also made the side openings
shorter and altered the back.  They came out fitting wonderfully well,
with no side gapeing.  Just had to fix the hem a bit on some of them,
but that's a figure problem, not a pattern problem.  
My husband took Folkwear's way of measuring point to point to draft the
pattern and did a spreadsheet on Microsoft Excel.  It did the rest of
the work for us.
-- 
Janice Dallas
JaniceDals@MediaOne.net
"Just so, the girl has beauty, virtue, wit..."
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-Poster: MzScahlett@aol.com

In a message dated 10/18/1999 17:30:56 Pacific Daylight Time, 
AlbertCat@aol.com writes:

<< In all fairness to TV it must be understood that they have very little 
time & 
 not as much money compared to film. [Britain has less of a problem in this 
 respect....mainly I think due to the way they teach costuming: with a 
respect 
 for what is "correct" over being a fashion designer of some kind] Extras & 
 walk-ons often look more correct than leads because they are pulled from 
 studio stocks....ironic, huh? I mean the Cartwrights didn't change clothes 
 for 10 years! >>

I know, GROSS!  By the end of the show, Hoss' leather vest was looking kinda 
scummy!  I think the 50s was the worst decade for current details "oozing" 
into film and television.  Bonanza is one of the best examples, but you see 
it all over the place. To some extent it's a natural phenomenon, discussed 
here on the list from time to time, but the 50s seems to have really left out 
any attempt to get it right (except the bigger budget A films).  What would 
it have cost that show to put those women in even a half-hearted attempt at a 
period corset?  Not that much, but they wanted the modern bustline (Ugh, not 
my favorite).  And then there was all that BLUE eyeshadow.  Very frontier.

angela

+++++
Angela F. Lazear
Costumes & Custom Clothing
Theatrical Costume Design
"If we shadows have offended, think but this,  and all is mended,
That you have but slumbered here, while these visions did appear."
A Midsummer Night's Dream; V, ii - W. Shakespeare
QUICK-LINK: http://come.to/costumes
FULL URL: http://sj.znet.com/~thespian/angil/index.html
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Subject: Re: H-COST: Favorite Costuming in Movies (long list)
Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 00:12:34 -0400
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-Poster: "Penny Ladnier" <penny.creative.outlets@erols.com>

> >--Can't think of the Name of the film but it was about an efficiency
expert
> >and he had about thirteen children.
>
> Cheaper By the Dozen.


That's it!  I love this movie, especially the lesson on bathing.

Later... Penny
http://www.costumegallery.com

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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Mon Oct 18 22:58:19 1999
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Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 21:08:46 -0700
Subject: Re: H-COST: Favorite Costuming in Movies (long list)
From: "R.L. Shep" <rlshep@home.com>
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-Poster: "R.L. Shep" <rlshep@home.com>

I am afraid that the costuming in *7 Years in Tibet* put me off because
everything was so CLEAN.  They may be authentic in the ultimate sense but
not in the practical sense.
~!~ R.L.Shep
http://www.rlshep.com

----------
>From: AlbertCat@aol.com
>To: h-costume@indra.com
>Subject: Re: H-COST: Favorite Costuming in Movies (long list)
>Date: Mon, Oct 18, 1999, 5:52 PM
>

>
>-Poster: AlbertCat@aol.com
>
>In a message dated 10/18/1999 8:50:43 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
>susanf@netwiz.net writes:
>
><< 
> Didn't anyone else like Kundun and 7 Years in Tibet for the
> costumes?? They were as authentic as possible and had real
> Tibetans to correct them when they weren't. It's a way of life
> that's lost -- it was nice to see it captured on film for a
> little while. 
>  >>
>I know...we're so occidental!
>No one's mentioned 
>Ran
>or
>The Last Emperor


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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Mon Oct 18 23:01:59 1999
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Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 00:15:12 EDT
Subject: Re: H-COST: Shoes in History question
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-Poster: MzScahlett@aol.com

Marc Carlson wrote: 
>>  I am trying to find factual 
>> evidence of what types of shoes were being worn in 
>> Byzantium, Coptic Egypt, the ancient Near East, the
>> Steppes, and the Ancient Far East...

Check  "20,000 Years of Fashion"  by Boucher and pull out the source texts he 
used for his references to footwear. He spends almost the first half of the 
book on antiquities, so there's a good deal to pull from. Then if you can 
locate the texts he used to research his conclusions at a library or with 
ILL, it might be a place to find more detailed material.

angela

+++++
Angela F. Lazear
Costumes & Custom Clothing
Theatrical Costume Design
"So far as my coin would stretch; and where it would not
I have used my credit."
King Henry the Fourth; I, ii - W. Shakespeare


QUICK-LINK: http://come.to/costumes
FULL URL: http://sj.znet.com/~thespian/angil/index.html
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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Mon Oct 18 23:02:37 1999
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Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 00:16:30 EDT
Subject: H-COST: Cross Dressing Elizabeth
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-Poster: CONNECT@aol.com


In a message dated 10/18/99 10:06:16 PM, kat@grendal.rain.com writes:

<< There are many instances where women crossdressed, often just for the 
fun of it, including notable women who are not necessarily notorious, 
such as Mary Queen of Scots and Elizabeth I.  >>

I would be interested to know where this tidbit came from. I've not 
encountered this in my studies of Queen Elizabeth. Could you please cite the 
source for me?

Yours gratefully,
Pattie Rayl
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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Mon Oct 18 23:06:41 1999
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Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 21:18:06 -0700
From: Carolyn Richardson <benrumson@worldnet.att.net>
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-Poster: Carolyn Richardson <benrumson@worldnet.att.net>



DRGurley@aol.com wrote:

> It's my understanding that a corset was worn over the chemise and under the
> bodice of Elizabethan costumes of all but peasant level. Is this accurate?

CAn't help you there.

> I've seen many posts about gap between the laces--both front and back--and am
> wondering how one keeps the corset from showing between the laces.

The gap referred to is the one between the sides of the corset, not both the
corset and bodice.  The reason you want a gap in the corset is to account for
variations in weight/water retention.  The bodice shouldn't have a gap- it should
close completely.

> All my bodices lace tightly closed over my corset. Are there alternatives?

That's the correct way.

> I'm also interested in making a front lace bodice with a detachable stomacher
> so that a) I can lace into myself, b)it will give me several options for
> combinations (peasant, merchant class, etc).  Any thoughts and/or tips would
> be appreciated.

I'm not sure a detachable stomacher would be period for Elizabethan, but it
probably would be for Cavalier.  Not real interested in Elizabethan myself.

Carolyn

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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Mon Oct 18 23:07:50 1999
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-Poster: Carolyn Richardson <benrumson@worldnet.att.net>



Freya wrote:

> -If the bodicee is boned and no corset is used is it alright to let the
> boning channels (stiching) show on the outside? I have some light weight
> bones that are too flexible, will it cause problems if I put 2 bones in
> each channel?

My personal preference is that the boning channels shouldn't show - I just think it
looks neater and more finished.  YMMV, and I don't know if there's a period
precedent.

CArolyn

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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Mon Oct 18 23:43:26 1999
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Subject: Re: H-COST: Favorite Costuming in Movies (long list)
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-Poster: Stephen Fairman <fairmans@teleport.com>



Penny Ladnier wrote:

> -Poster: "Penny Ladnier" <penny.creative.outlets@erols.com>
>
> > >--Can't think of the Name of the film but it was about an efficiency
> expert
> > >and he had about thirteen children.
> >
> > Cheaper By the Dozen.
>
> That's it!  I love this movie, especially the lesson on bathing.
>
> Later... Penny
> http://www.costumegallery.com
>
>  _________________________________________________________________

 That is the book that taught me how to bath correctly.  I still find
myself doing it the Gilbreath Way!  Loved the books and still re-read them
and rent the movies periodically.  Those stories really affected my live,
for some reason.

Esteban McLachan
Shadow's Treasure Chest

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To: h-costume@indra.com
From: Melanie Schuessler <melanie@faucet.net>
Subject: H-COST: cyclas sources and comments on the annotations--long
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-Poster: Melanie Schuessler <melanie@faucet.net>

>-Poster: marc-carlson@utulsa.edu

>The problem is that I believe (and this is really an
>opinion, since I can't back it up with clear facts) that
> "linguistic evolution" as a description is really only
> valid only for current things, not historical things.

This is a valid distinction.  I used the wrong phrase to describe what I
meant, which was a drift in meaning that can occur incrementally and
unwittingly as information is used in several texts, each of which uses
their predecessor as a source.  It's the literary version of the "telephone
game."

Regarding the bibliography, Boucher I love, Kohler I use cautiously, and
Davies I haven't read.

>(Hill, Margot, and Peter Bucknell, Evolution of Fashion,
>New York Drama Book Specialists 1981, c1967)
>A lovely beginner's book and written to present the
>information, pre-digested to an audience that doesn't
>have time to mess with research.  For that reason, the
>authors don't cite their material, and it's practically
>impossible to back track their work.  If you are doing
>historical costumes, use the book -- if you are
>researching historical accuracy, use with caution.

I personally dislike this book rather intensely, and it's mostly because I
feel that the patterns have little relation to the costumes they are meant
to represent.  I admit that I haven't read the text that closely, having
had an instant and visceral reaction to the pattern shapes.  I feel that
your caveat is well-deserved.

>(Norris, Herbert.  Costume and Fashion, Volume Two.
>Senlac to Bosworth. London: Dent, 1927)
<...> He doesn't cite the work
>particularly well, or particularly throughly, and there
>I have heard people accuse him of making material up.  I
>wouldn't go THAT far

I would.  If you'll look at figure 576 on page 490, you'll see a drawing of
Elizabeth on a horse in a very fetching ensemble.  When I first saw this, I
thought, how pretty.  In the text, you'll discover that he's based it on a
very short description:  black velvet, cut all over in a design, worn over
an underdress of white satin; bodice and sleeves braided with narrow gold
[plus description of hair and hat, which are probably pretty close to
true].  Now this description could apply to any of many different styles
from 1564, and I could go into detail about why this particular outfit
wasn't it, but I'll spare you that.

Norris also tends to be, in the best tradition of secondary sources,
revisionist.  For example, in figure 719, on page 625, we see a lovely
young lady setting a ruff.  She seems like a great example of a mid to
lower class woman, and you don't find that many pictures of these.  Now I
will admit that the ruff-setting part stays the same, but if you look in
Janet Arnold's QE's Wardrobe Unlock'd, on page 228 you will see the
original source for Norris' lovely maid--a monkey, wearing a different
dress.  Norris also omits poor young Edward VI's codpiece (to protect the
public, I guess) as well as changing the trim on his outfit.

I'm not claiming that everything in his work is inaccurate, and I think
much of his text is probably just fine, but as you say, use with caution,
especially the pictures.

>In either case, don't brag
>about it, or else you may get to hear all sorts of nasty
>things.

(For sample, see above!)  ;)

Melanie


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Message-ID: <0.1a6ea62d.253d57b3@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 01:12:19 EDT
Subject: Re: H-COST: Favorite Costuming in Movies (long list)
To: h-costume@indra.com
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-Poster: M311@aol.com

In a message dated 10/18/99 11:58:56 PM Central Daylight Time, 
fairmans@teleport.com writes:

<< Cheaper By the Dozen.
 >
 > That's it!  I love this movie, especially the lesson on bathing. >>

I also like it.  THe sequal also where he dies and the Mother goes to work.  
I can't remember the name of it either.
Kelly
m311@aol.com
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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Tue Oct 19 00:02:00 1999
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From: "Margo Glenn-Lewis" <nomad@opalsun.com>
To: <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: RE: H-COST: COS Real Folkloric costumes from Turkey etc (fwd)
Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 22:14:12 -0700
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-Poster: "Margo Glenn-Lewis" <nomad@opalsun.com>

Oooh ooh oooh - I'm interested!!  Turkey, Morocco, Afganistan - you betcha!
Ah, how much?


Margo Glenn-Lewis

> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-h-costume@indra.com [mailto:owner-h-costume@indra.com]On
> Behalf Of Ioana Timariu
> Sent: Monday, October 18, 1999 7:46 AM
> To: h-costume-digest@indra.com
> Subject: H-COST: COS Real Folkloric costumes from Turkey etc (fwd)
>
>
>
> -Poster: Ioana Timariu <ioana@yucc.yorku.ca>
>
>
> Hello! Thought some of you might appreciate this:
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> Date: Mon, 11 Oct 1999 15:15:17 -0700
> From: "Faint, Kylie" <KFaint@sempra.com>
> Reply-To: med-dance@europe.std.com
> To: med-dance@world.std.com
> Subject: COS Real Folkloric costumes from Turkey etc
>
> X-33208-Poster:  "Faint, Kylie" <KFaint@sempra.com>
>
> Hi list,
>
> An "International Gallery" in my neighbourhood is closing
> down, and they
> have some *awesome* folkloric outfits for sale, which were part of a
> travelling exhibition they did in the US & Canada - these are
> museum quality
> costumes!
>
> I've been wracking my brain trying to think who might
> appreciate these, to
> little avail, so I'm just throwing the info out there, in
> case anyone's
> interested.
>
> The costume I looked at (they are all bagged up) was 13 pieces, for a
> particular village in Turkey.  It had everything from
> underwear (very cute
> bloomer type undies!), tunic, apron, vest, jacket, shawls, headpiece &
> jewelry, even a set of kashiklar (dancing spoons)!  The owner
> phoned me up
> today, and said that he might be able to swing me a special
> deal, since he
> knows I'm genuinely interested in the stuff.  I am, but I'm
> wondering what I
> would do with a collection of authentic folk costumes :)  I
> don't know where
> all the costumes are from, as I only looked at one.  The shop
> has garments
> from Syria, Morroco, Egypt, Afghanistan etc also.
>
> I guess thats all, just had to pass this info on to someone!!
>
> Kylie
> KFaint@Sempra.com
>
> --
> X-To-Get-Help-File: re list & assoc. info (graphics, lyrics,
> digests, etc),
> email dancers-archive@world.std.com w/ SUBJECT: 'help
> med-dance'. Body ignored.
>
>

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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Tue Oct 19 01:01:57 1999
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Date: Tue, 12 Oct 1999 13:52:04 -0700
To: h-costume@indra.com
From: Carolyn Kayta Barrows <kayta@slip.net>
Subject: Re: H-COST: Stubbes on Jerkins
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.10.9910151421060.21069-100000@kirk.dnaco.net>
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-Poster: Carolyn Kayta Barrows <kayta@slip.net>


>He was an Englishman, commenting on English fashion.  I have his collected
>opinions on Ruffs, women's hair, shoes, clothing, etc. online at
>http://www.dnaco.net/~aleed/corsets/stubbes.html
>

>> What country was he talking about - Germany?
>> 

>> >"Their coates and Jerkins, as they be diverse in colors, so be they
>> >diverse in fashions; for some be made with colors, some without, some
>> >close to the bodie, some loose, covering the whole body downe to the
>> >theighe, like baggs or sacks that weare
>> >
>> >drawen over them, hidinge the dimensions and proportions of the body:
>> >some are buttened down the brest, some under the arm, and some downe
>> >the back; some with flappes over the brest, some without, some with
>> >great sleeves, some with small, and some with non at all; some pleated
>> >and crested behind, and curiously gathered; some not so; & how many
>> >days so many sortes of apparell some one man will have, and thinketh
>> >it good provision in faire weather to lay up against a storme! "

I know he had some opinions on German costumes, and I was wondering if this
was one of them.  Davenport quotes him on German costume (where is that
book when I need it?).



Kayta
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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Tue Oct 19 01:30:40 1999
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Date: Tue, 12 Oct 1999 15:51:58 -0700
To: h-costume@indra.com
From: Carolyn Kayta Barrows <kayta@slip.net>
Subject: Re: H-COST: Favorite Costuming in Movies 
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-Poster: Carolyn Kayta Barrows <kayta@slip.net>

Best Japanese historical - Chushingura - the 47 Ronin story.  They've got
the best Japanese court costumes of anyone's.




Kayta
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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Tue Oct 19 01:44:32 1999
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From: "L.L. Johnson" <athenekore@hotmail.com>
To: h-costume@indra.com
Subject: H-COST: Need to take a break from the list/thanks much to all
Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 23:59:00 PDT
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-Poster: "L.L. Johnson" <athenekore@hotmail.com>

Hullo to all

I'm realizing that I need to take a break from the list. It's taking me too 
much time to read the posts. You folks are just way too prolific. :-)

Thanks very much for answering my questions and for sharing your knowledge. 
I am planning to resubscribe to the digest version after my break.

Until then, take care

Lonna

______________________________________________________
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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Tue Oct 19 04:41:32 1999
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Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 10:08:36 -0700
From: Dawn <dawn.wood1@virgin.net>
Organization: ages of elegance (http://www.ageofelegance.dabsol.co.uk)
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Subject: Re: H-COST: Re: silk stockings
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-Poster: Dawn <dawn.wood1@virgin.net>

David S. Mallinak wrote:
> 
> -Poster: "David S. Mallinak" <matchlck@erols.com>
> 
> Susannah Eanes wrote:
> 
> > I have access to the inventory of an old store that contains, among
> > other wonderful things, original late 18th - early 19th c. silk
> > stockings & corsets in their original boxes.  I don't know how they
> > have stood up to the decades of being stored away in an
> > unheated/uncooled store attic warehouse, but they sure look & feel
> > pretty good to me.  The owner is currently assessing these items for
> > sale either in lots or as one whole.  If anyone is interested in
> > finding out more, please e-mail me privately.
> 
> I am just starting to clear my H-COST message when I say your offer.
> 
> If it is not to late please add my name and address to those who are
> interested
> 
> David S. Mallinak
> matchlck@erol.com
> 
Please also add me to the list
for some reason I didn't get the original email otherwise I would have
jumped in earlier


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From owner-h-costume@indra.com  Tue Oct 19 07:22:52 1999
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From: "Penny Ladnier" <penny.creative.outlets@erols.com>
To: "h-costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: H-COST: Theatre Design list
Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 08:39:40 -0400
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-Poster: "Penny Ladnier" <penny.creative.outlets@erols.com>

There is a new email list on www.onelist.com called TheatreDesign  .  This
list deals with costume design, makeup artists, and set design for the film
and theatre industries.  I do not run this list, I am just a member.

One feature of the list is guest artists.  This month it's make-up
artist Jennifer Aspinall.  Jen is a make-up artist, who has worked in all
media.  Her theatre work includes NY City Opera, Victor/Victoria
(Broadway)and vacation relief for Phantom of
the Opera (Broadway).  Jen created the make-up and special effects for the
Toxic Avenger (film), more recent she designed Basquat turning David Bowie
into Andy Warhol (film).  Currently, for television, she designs MadTV
(Fox), before that Saturday Night Live (NBC).  Next month it's lighting
designer Dawn Chang.

Later... Penny
http://www.costumegallery.com

 _____________________________________________