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Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2003 08:20:36 +0100 (BST)
From: =?iso-8859-1?q?N=20Kipar?= <nicolas_fouquet@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Knight's tale
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
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 --- AlbertCat@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 3/31/2003 3:39:18 PM Eastern
Standard Time, 
> jessicastier@hotmail.com writes:
> 
> 
> > I have the DVD "A Knight's Tale" and I love it!
> 
> Well, I guess SOMEBODY has to....  ;-)

Ha! ha! *laughs* I have the opposite opinion again! We are doing good here,
AbertCat.
I adore the film, it's SO funny, but I do agree with the comments on the lead
female: dreadful! She can't even act a little bit and those costumes are plain
awful (not even funny) still, who cares, I take 'Chaucer' any day. Scrawny and
gangly but ever so yummy *G*

> Like the dreadful "First Knight" I simply cannot watch the thing.

Would you believe it, I agree with you on 'first knight', hate it, but love
'knight's tale'.

> But I'm not being judgmental really. I have my guilty pleasures....Like the 
> David Lynch film of "Dune".

Why guilty???? Why ever feeling guilty for liking or disliking things? Why
aplying huge disclaimers for stating one's own opinion? Heck, we don't live in
dictatorships yet, now do we? Come to think of it... but let's best not go
there.
So, long live personal opinions, and hey, I like Dune too, but that's because
of Sting.

Some of my fav pictures are Restoration, Prince's Bride (Inigo Montoya, yay!)
Robin of Sherwood (wait, that's TV), Much Ado about Nothig, Henry V (!!!), and
yes, I do admit it, despite Kevin Costner *blech* Robin Hood, prince of
Thieves, but then I like anything with Michael Wincott with long black hair and
on a horse, really *L*

Nicole

=====
"Brains, not Bombs"
http://www.stopthewar.org.uk/

Nicole Kipar M.A.
URL: http://www.kipar.org/
Email: nicole@kipar.org

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Date: Tue, 01 Apr 2003 01:23:42 -0800
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Carolyn Kayta Barrows <kayta@frys.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] 15th century bone buttons
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>Up for sale on ebay at the moment is a bone with a number of holes in it 
>described as a bone button making fragment.
>
> 
>http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=115&item=3216597228&rd=1
>
>My assumption would be buttons made this way would have to have two holes 
>in them for thread to attach them to the garment, no shanks.  I was under 
>the impression that such drilled buttons were at least 17th century.  Does 
>anyone know of drilled buttons from the 15th century?  Or perhaps another 
>way to attach round buttons obtained this way?

I have to wonder how they think it's 15th century, not, say, nineteenth 
century, which would be my guess.


Kayta

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From: "Kate M Bunting" <K.M.Bunting@derby.ac.uk>
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] UK Boleyn Girl
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Cindy wrote:

Kate Bunting
Library, University of Derby

>>> brujne@creighton.edu 03/31/03 07:04pm >>>
>Could someone on the list in the UK post their impressions of the TV >programme "The Other Boleyn Girl"? 

This has been discussed in the thread "Tonight's UK television".

In answer to Jean, yes, in one scene where Mary walked away from the camera you could see the ends of her long hair hanging below the velvet hood. I asked because I wasn't sure whether it was wrong, but thought it more likely a married woman would put up her hair.


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Subject: [h-cost] Worth collection in paris?
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Kia ora all,

I don't know if I've asked this here, but is anyone aware of a "Worth
Collection in Paris? I'm looking at page 650 of Davenport's History of
costume (the pattern and what looks to be extant costume) of a 17thC Spanish
gown. It's in the style of the 1650s but the caption says first quarter
17thC and that it's in "Paris, Worth Coll." I'm guessing Coll. is short for
collection.

This dress has intrigued me for nearly a decade yet I cannot find any more
info on it.

Please please if anyone knows anything more about this dress I'm really
wanting to know more. The Gown appears to be modelled by a real person
too...

michaela
http://recital.tripod.com/costume



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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Silky Tassel Material?
Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2003 07:55:44 -0500
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Margo, I have made quick long tassels from rayon fringe.  You can find it in
12" , 18, or upwards. Half yard lengths give a decent swing (for one). Just
roll and stitch firmly.  You can wrap the sewn bit with other fibers or make
a cover piece from scraps of your dress. I forget the period of your dress,
but I have seen 'tails' of marabou(like three) cut in 14" strips attached to
the tips of the main boa. This was a gown of the 1912-15 era.
Kathleen
----- Original Message -----
From: "Margo Anderson" <margo@margospatterns.com>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>; "Historical Costume"
<h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Monday, March 31, 2003 9:20 PM
Subject: [h-cost] Silky Tassel Material?


> My new feather boa just arrived!  This is for my 1920's Queen Latifahesque
> gown, for the Saturday Night social at Costume Con.
>
> Unfortunately, at 6 feet long, it seems a bit short for my sumptuous
> proportions.  I've seen, in a book from the period, a feather boa with
long
> (12"+) silk tassels on both ends, and I'd like to add some to mine.  Can
> anyone suggest a source for thread or cord to make them ?  I'm running a
> bit tight on both cash and time, so I'd prefer a non mail order solution,
> and a reasonable substitute for silk is fine.  Do yarn shops have anything
> that would work?  Any other suggestions?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Margo
>
> "One Tough Costumer"
> http://www.margospatterns.com
> _______________________________________________
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Lisa Sinervo writes:

>There is a tool that marks skirts that I have seen for sale at fabric 
>stores but
>have never tried.  It is a hem marker that you stand next to and you have it
>blow chalk marks at your skirt as you turn around.

These have been around *at least* since I was a little girl (2-3 years 
old). Mom and her mother (may Grandma rest in peace) used to mark each 
other's hems this way fairly well. I've tried marking Mom's skirts (and 
mine) this way, and have only come up with disasters. Here are some caveats 
based on my disasters:

1. If you rotate yourself and keep the stick in place, and your skirt has 
any fullness to it, your markings will come out uneven.

2. If you move the marker, but stay still, if you accidentally move the 
skirts while doing so, your markings will come out uneven.

3. If the marking stick's distance from the fabric changes over the course 
of your measurement, your markings will come out uneven.

4. If you move, your markings will come out uneven.


Brenda Faith Bell       webwarren@earthlink.net
Consultant, The Web Warren      http://www.webwarren.com/

arachne@webwarren.com


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From: Robin Netherton <robin@shell.nightowl.net>
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Subject: [h-cost] Seeking UK re-enactors
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I've been contacted by a researcher working on a series for BBC 2 on
medieval people.

Among other things, she's looking for a female re-enactor in the UK she
can interview for the show. She needs someone who has got historically
accurate kit (as authentic as possible) and can talk knowledgeably about
the clothing a gentry-level woman would wear and how she carries out daily
tasks. The idea would be to show how the layering, etc. allows for
practicality as well as display. (The aim of the series is to contrast
some of the common popular "medieval" stereotypes with reality. So, folks,
here's your chance to get some good information out there.)

I have already done some checking around and found some excellent living
history groups in England, but all of them have a focus of Norman period
or earlier. In this case, we need someone much later -- mid-15th century
would be ideal, though we could manage something around 1400. Think on the
line of Margaret Paston -- country gentry, lady of the house.

Naturally I need contacts right away. ;-)

Thanks for any leads. You may feel free to repost this note on other
relevant groups, but remember that we want ONLY someone focused on
well-researched, exact costume. I gather she does *not* want someone to
play a persona or describe any sort of modern re-enactment events.

--Robin







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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Worth collection in paris?
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Status: RO

If I am thinking of the same dress you are thinking of, it was exhibited
at the Museum of the City of New York some years ago in their big
shindig on Worth. I thought they owned it because the gown itself was
made for a "fancy dress ball" thrown in New York City by Alva Vanderbilt
in 1898 (?).

Hope this helps,

MD/Marged
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From: "Lisa Sinervo" <lisa-list@threadneedlest.com>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
References: <4.3.1.2.20030401012301.05535a00@mail.frys.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] 15th century bone buttons
Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2003 06:24:16 -0800
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Somehow, I think I have seen a similar object dated that far back, but
memory is sketchy and now I'm curious about the subject.

Another item in my mental list to look out for.

Lisa


----- Original Message -----
From: "Carolyn Kayta Barrows" <kayta@frys.com>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2003 1:23 AM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] 15th century bone buttons


>
> >Up for sale on ebay at the moment is a bone with a number of holes in it
> >described as a bone button making fragment.
> >
> >
>
>http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=115&item=3216597228&
rd=1
> >
> >My assumption would be buttons made this way would have to have two holes
> >in them for thread to attach them to the garment, no shanks.  I was under
> >the impression that such drilled buttons were at least 17th century.
Does
> >anyone know of drilled buttons from the 15th century?  Or perhaps another
> >way to attach round buttons obtained this way?
>
> I have to wonder how they think it's 15th century, not, say, nineteenth
> century, which would be my guess.
>
>
> Kayta
>
>     //// \\\
>    ////-@@\\\
>   ((((   7 )))
>    (((  <> ))))
>       )   ((((((
> /----\   /---\))
>
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In a message dated 4/1/2003 4:34:52 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
nicolas_fouquet@yahoo.com writes:


> Some of my fav pictures are Restoration, Prince's Bride (Inigo Montoya, 
> yay!)
> Robin of Sherwood (wait, that's TV), Much Ado about Nothig, Henry V (!!!), 
> and
> yes, I do admit it, despite Kevin Costner *blech* Robin Hood, prince of
> Thieves, but then I like anything with Michael Wincott with long black hair 
> and
> on a horse, really *L*
> 

Hmmmmmm...seems you'd want as LITTLE costuming as possible....on the leading 
men that is! Calm down, Girlfriend!!!

[I'm teasing you, you realize.]
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From: "Lisa Sinervo" <lisa-list@threadneedlest.com>
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Classes in Brisbane AU
Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2003 06:32:10 -0800
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The Morteon Institute of TAFE offers an industry based fashion program which
is in Mt. Gravatt a suburb of Brisbane.  It offers day and evening classes
including all the standard patternmaking courses.  You don't actually have
to be "offered" a spot to take a course although the literature often makes
it seem that way.  It's worth talking to the department to get in. Chris
something or other is the flat-pattern instructor and she is super.  Most of
the people there have worked in industry/production and it shows.  The
slopers they use there have seam allowances because it is faster to make
patterns that way.  You only have to add allowances where you cut or slash
etc.... it took some getting used to.

Queensland University of Technology in the city of Brisbane was just about
to open a university degree program when I left that was more design based.
One would probably have to be a full time "college" student to
participate.......but also worth trying.

Lisa


----- Original Message -----
From: "Heather Meadows" <alice@wonderland.com>
To: <sewretro@yahoogroups.com>
Cc: <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Monday, March 31, 2003 10:13 PM
Subject: [h-cost] Classes in Brisbane AU


>
> I got email from someone via my website who is looking for
> recommendations for sewing/pattern drafting classes in
> the Brisbane, Australia area.  Anyone from around there on
> the list?
>
>
> Heather
>
> _______________________________________________
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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] attn Robin - a woman's parti colored dress
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On Mon, 31 Mar 2003, Lisa Sinervo wrote:

> I was looking through Medieval Panorama edited by Robert Bartlett 2001
> and came across a 14th century Italian painting described as the
> wedding night.  I has a woman in a navy and red parti colored gown
> pulling back the curtains from the bed for the newlywed couple.  Not
> really a Gothic Fitted Dress, a bit looser, and it looks like she
> might have gores under her sleeves. You've probably seen it but I
> thought I would point it out anyway.  The only one in the book!

Thanks! I haven't seen this book.

There are a handful of Italian dresses that have "interesting" sectioning
of different colors, and not always split vertically down the middle.
There doesn't seem to be much equivalent in Western Europe. Italian
fashion is a thing unto itself...

--Robin

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I'm planning to run a Silver clay workshop later in the Spring for anyone
interested.

Silver clay is a new product you shape your item from a special clat, fire
it and it turns to pure silver.

This is a great way of reproducing costuming items such as brooches,
chatelaines, rings, you name it, without being a jewwller.

The clay (like any silver) isn't cheap buit it is 100% silver and can be
hallmarked

If you are interested please let me know with any free dates at weekends you
have circa May June

Mel

This e-mail, and any attachment, is confidential. If you have received
it in error, please delete it from your system, do not use or disclose
the information in any way, and notify me immediately. The contents of
this message may contain personal views which are not the views of the
Company, unless specifically stated.




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From: =?iso-8859-1?q?N=20Kipar?= <nicolas_fouquet@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Seeking UK re-enactors
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
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I hate to disillusion you, but a) most of the time those series are never as
good as they claim they will be, and b) they usually never pay properly and c)
good luck finding the right people...

Sorry for being no help and sounding sarcastic, I just meant to warn you not to
believe too much even BBC people are telling you. *S*

I might be totally wrong this time though, one never knows.

Nicole

 --- Robin Netherton <robin@shell.nightowl.net> wrote: > 
> I've been contacted by a researcher working on a series for BBC 2 on
> medieval people.
> 
> Among other things, she's looking for a female re-enactor in the UK she
> can interview for the show. She needs someone who has got historically
> accurate kit (as authentic as possible) and can talk knowledgeably about
> the clothing a gentry-level woman would wear and how she carries out daily
> tasks. The idea would be to show how the layering, etc. allows for
> practicality as well as display. (The aim of the series is to contrast
> some of the common popular "medieval" stereotypes with reality. So, folks,
> here's your chance to get some good information out there.)
> 
> I have already done some checking around and found some excellent living
> history groups in England, but all of them have a focus of Norman period
> or earlier. In this case, we need someone much later -- mid-15th century
> would be ideal, though we could manage something around 1400. Think on the
> line of Margaret Paston -- country gentry, lady of the house.
> 
> Naturally I need contacts right away. ;-)
> 
> Thanks for any leads. You may feel free to repost this note on other
> relevant groups, but remember that we want ONLY someone focused on
> well-researched, exact costume. I gather she does *not* want someone to
> play a persona or describe any sort of modern re-enactment events.
> 
> --Robin
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume 

=====
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http://www.stopthewar.org.uk/

Nicole Kipar M.A.
URL: http://www.kipar.org/
Email: nicole@kipar.org

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From: =?iso-8859-1?q?N=20Kipar?= <nicolas_fouquet@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Knight's tale
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 --- AlbertCat@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 4/1/2003 4:34:52 AM Eastern
Standard Time, 
> nicolas_fouquet@yahoo.com writes:

> Hmmmmmm...seems you'd want as LITTLE costuming as possible....on the leading 
> men that is! Calm down, Girlfriend!!!
> 
> [I'm teasing you, you realize.]

*laughs loudly* Well, actually I prefer my leading men with a cool costume,
like those Spanish conquistadore type outfits, oh my... in 1492.
Okay so I admit it, Chaucer isn't that particularly well-costumed at the
beginning *BG*

Men in costumes are sexier than men without any thead of clothing most of teh
time. :-)

Nicole

=====
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http://www.stopthewar.org.uk/

Nicole Kipar M.A.
URL: http://www.kipar.org/
Email: nicole@kipar.org

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Subject: [h-cost] Neckline of Coronation Tunic of Henry II-another picture
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http://www.saragrace.net/images/HII_CorTunic2.JPG

This isn't a great picture either, but you can see some things in it
that you can't see in others.    This is the Davenport picture.

Sg


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I didn't like Shannon S's gowns either, but I loved the movie. I thought the
approach to the costumes was the same as the approach to everything else.
Those folks knew what they were doing, they did their research and then they
had fun with it without violating any of the conventions of the knightly
tale. How often does that happen in historical movies???

Gail Finke


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Yes I have SO many calls from production companies wanting serious
re-enactors to do a show, which saddly translates to any fool out there
willing to cut our costs by giving up their time for free and paying their
own expenses.

Sorry I no longer suggest anyone goes for these unless I know the pay on
offer. Hate to be negative but it is getting so common. Maybe as Nicole
sayes this might be an expection

Mel




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From: Robin Netherton <robin@shell.nightowl.net>
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Seeking UK re-enactors
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On Tue, 1 Apr 2003, [iso-8859-1] N Kipar wrote:

> I hate to disillusion you, but a) most of the time those series are
> never as good as they claim they will be, and b) they usually never
> pay properly and c) good luck finding the right people...

I'm aware of that, and I know what you're thinking of. In this case,
they're not looking for actors to play roles or provide "color" or
"atmosphere." They're looking for an individual expert to *interview*
regarding the topic of dress, which is one angle they intend to cover in
an examination of medieval women's lives. It is not a paid appearance. 

Academics do these sorts of interviews frequently, and this researcher
started her hunt by calling an academic specialist in medieval costume in
the UK. That person referred her to me, since I am more accustomed to
talking about "daily life" issues for laypeople. The researcher
interviewed me at length for background information, but since I'm on the
wrong side of the water, I can't do any on-camera time. What she wants is
an equivalent to me -- someone who can describe the clothing and show how
it works with well-made reproduction costume.

The series actually sounds pretty promising. Each segment will focus on
one medieval stereotype (the minstrel, the knight, the doctor -- this one
is the "damsel") and compare the popular image to reality. The researcher
I'm dealing with was particularly interested in what I had to say about
the Pre-Raphaelite influence on modern people's impressions of what
"medieval" clothing looks like, since that's exactly what they want to
contrast with the reality.

I believe she said the narrator for the series will be Terry Jones.

--Robin


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From: =?iso-8859-1?q?N=20Kipar?= <nicolas_fouquet@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Seeking UK re-enactors
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 --- Robin Netherton <robin@shell.nightowl.net> wrote: > 

> I'm aware of that, and I know what you're thinking of. In this case,
> they're not looking for actors to play roles or provide "color" or
> "atmosphere." They're looking for an individual expert to *interview*
> regarding the topic of dress, which is one angle they intend to cover in
> an examination of medieval women's lives. It is not a paid appearance. 

Yes Robin, EXACTLY, Mel and I know exactly what they want and what you mean and
it does not surprise me that they don't even pay. You don't live here in the
UK, so you don't kow about the gazillions of programmes who all use
re-enactors. Some for the colour, others for the 'academia' and very rarely
does it seem to be worthwhile. I know many re-enactors and living historians
who have appeared in TV and film, been there, done that got the (Time Team!)
t-shirt and won't ever do it again.

> Academics do these sorts of interviews frequently, and this researcher
> started her hunt by calling an academic specialist in medieval costume in
> the UK. That person referred her to me, since I am more accustomed to
> talking about "daily life" issues for laypeople. The researcher
> interviewed me at length for background information, but since I'm on the
> wrong side of the water, I can't do any on-camera time. What she wants is
> an equivalent to me -- someone who can describe the clothing and show how
> it works with well-made reproduction costume.

Then look for an academic not for a re-enactor.
I'm sorry Robin, but I have heard that one too as well. Still, let's cross our
fingers that you'll find someone. And yes I know about proper academics'
appearances, my supervisor, amongst many others, is frequently on when it's
about women in early modern England.

> The series actually sounds pretty promising. Each segment will focus on
> one medieval stereotype (the minstrel, the knight, the doctor -- this one
> is the "damsel") and compare the popular image to reality. The researcher
> I'm dealing with was particularly interested in what I had to say about
> the Pre-Raphaelite influence on modern people's impressions of what
> "medieval" clothing looks like, since that's exactly what they want to
> contrast with the reality.

Let's hope that it will be good, I'm certainly always interested in a good
programme.
Did you see 'two men in a trench'? Wasn't too bad actually, still we declined,
they wanted to wear our costumes for the Battle of the Boyne, nah.... because
they were loathe to pay the insurance money for the thousands of pounds the
costumes are worth *L*

I do cross my fingers and wish you and the BBC team all the best,

Nicole

=====
"Brains, not Bombs"
http://www.stopthewar.org.uk/

Nicole Kipar M.A.
URL: http://www.kipar.org/
Email: nicole@kipar.org

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>It is not a paid appearance.

No surprise there then

I know from the other side (several of my family & friends are in
production) how some production companies laugh at re-enactors as free meat

As I understand it the BBC has a public charter specifically making it a
public service (we paid a licence fee to support them for heavens sake) I
believe it is morally incorrect to ask anyone to perform for free.

>. I know many re-enactors and living historians
who have appeared in TV and film, been there, done that got the (Time Team!)
t-shirt and won't ever do it again.

I think most of us in the UK , seems to me without wishing to be over
cynical that is why they might be looking overseas.

With the greatest respect to you Robin & your research(which I admire),
there are plenty of costume historians in the UK, and many Universities full
of acedemics and web pages and magazines full of re-enactors in the UK.

> Academics do these sorts of interviews frequently,

But not for free if they are really any good. Does Mike Aston appear for
free ? Trouble is with doing it for free you get people who are more
interested in the appearance than the research. All research costs money (as
we all know to our cost in books etc) and the production companies who won't
recognise this really are insulting people and saying their knowledge is
worthless. I'm quite sure the researcher(your contact) for the program is
paid ?

>. Each segment will focus on
> one medieval stereotype (the minstrel, the knight, the doctor -- this one
> is the "damsel") and compare the popular image to reality.

If they allowed budget for the 'experts' these shows could be really good,
sadly they don't and they fall short of what they could be :(

Last few freebies asked for did anyone else get collared ?

History of the Clevage
A Victorian BBC production
Cavalry requirments for various periods
Bodecia (sp?)
Zen program


Mel




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Many women's colleges took posture pictures, but not measurements.

The Smith Alumnae Magazine had an article about their taking posture 
pictures several years back.

Ann in CT
Smith '87
no posture pictures for me--or many years previously, either


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From: Robin Netherton <robin@shell.nightowl.net>
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Actually, Melanie, I am squarely in your court about not expecting
performances for free. I wouldn't have passed this on if it were a request
for performers.

I see an interview as something very different. But then, I am a
journalist by trade, and I have spent much of my life interviewing experts
who know their fields and are interested in seeing accurate descriptions
of their work in documentary media. (My field is magazine journalism, so
"performance" isn't an issue there.)

> I think most of us in the UK , seems to me without wishing to be over
> cynical that is why they might be looking overseas.
> 
> With the greatest respect to you Robin & your research(which I
> admire), there are plenty of costume historians in the UK, and many
> Universities full of acedemics and web pages and magazines full of
> re-enactors in the UK.

Well, as I noted earlier, the researcher began by contacting a well-known
UK academic in the field of historic dress. That academic, a close
colleague of mine, referred the researcher to me because she felt I was
the best person (despite my location) to answer that researcher's specific
questions. So the researcher did not come "looking overseas." And she was
looking for an expert, not a re-enactor. She then asked who in the UK
would be an equivalent person to me whom she could interview for camera. I
happen to have a very high opinion of some of the re-enactment work being
done in the UK, and told her that if she wanted good information from
someone who is accustomed to explaining things to laypeople, these are the
people to talk with.

I do believe the thought of re-enactors had not even entered her mind. And
when I mentioned it, she assumed I meant performers, and made it very
clear she's not looking for a performance.

Think of it this way: If she were working in a later period where extant
clothing was plentiful, she might interview a museum curator who would
show objects in the collection and talk about how they were worn. That
interview would not be a paid service (unless the museum curator also
provided consulting work, etc.). For medieval, the closest she can get
would be to interview someone who is knowledgeable about the field and can
show reproduction pieces. I frankly think that the best re-enactors in the
UK would be better than any of the academics I can think of, all of whom
specialize deeply in some particular area and may not be as good at
describing how the clothes would behave in life.

> > Academics do these sorts of interviews frequently,
> 
> But not for free if they are really any good.

Actually, yes, we do. It's part of our "job description." When I was
working full-time for magazines, I interviewed academics frequently. We
never paid our sources for that. By conrast, if we wanted someone to
*write* an article, or review one for accuracy, or to otherwise supply
services (e.g. hosting a show), that's a paying job. I've done those too,
from both sides -- as the service provider and as the person hiring.

I would put re-enactment performance in the category of paid service, no
question. Or costume design or consultation. Or anything that required
scripting or rehearsal. But an interview is quite different.

Now, it may be that I'm completely wrong about what these people are
looking for. If so, I hope whomever they approach will set them straight.

--Robin


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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Seeking UK re-enactors
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>I see an interview as something very different. But then, I am a
journalist by trade, and I have spent much of my life interviewing experts
who know their fields and are interested in seeing accurate descriptions
of their work in documentary media

Again I assume you were paid for  your trade ? Again I do believe magazines
do pay for certain stories if they are worth having. Some experts will give
interviews but in many cases this is to promote a book or something similar
(here at least)


Actually most journalists motives arn't high on my admire list I'm afraid,
having been on the intrusive end of journos a few times.

>If she were working in a later period where extant
clothing was plentiful, she might interview a museum curator who would
show objects in the collection and talk about how they were worn. That
interview would not be a paid service

Most museum curators in the UK are paid, all be it not particularly well,
and promoting their collection is part of their job description in my book.

>Actually, yes, we do. It's part of our "job description."

Well US acedemics might,. most if not all UK acedemics I have spoken to on
the subject would rarely if ever do this for free and if they did would
generally have a motive (eg book)

 >Now, it may be that I'm completely wrong about what these people are
looking for.

It still remains a freebie. Who can blame them if I knew of a great fabric
store that gave fabric away I'd keep going back ! But other fabric stores
would be somewhat cheesed off I think.

I'm happy to give my time to people genuinly interested it things, but when
you constantly see people making money out of you willingness to educate
others (and often with films having your words twisted) you get jaded. It is
nice you don't feel that way. Maybe I'm jusy old & bitter & twisted :)

Last posting on list from me on this I've aired my feelings !

Mel


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Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2003 13:27:05 -0600 (CST)
From: Robin Netherton <robin@shell.nightowl.net>
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Seeking UK re-enactors
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On Tue, 1 Apr 2003, Melanie Wilson wrote:

> Again I assume you were paid for your trade ?

When I produce an article, I educate myself on the topic through library
and other research, seek out opinions and information from many
individuals, conduct interviews, balance contrasting views and represent
them fairly, organize the material, and write it coherently and
grammatically, according to the required length, style, reading level, and
time frame. For this work I am paid.

When I interview someone, or when a journalist interviews me as part of
this process, the journalist is paid. The interviewee is not. What I give
up as an interviewee is maybe a half-hour or hour of my time, in exchange
for having my views and information represented. If I don't think that's a
worthwhile thing, I don't do the interview.

If a journalist asks me to do research, organize information, provide
extensive consultation, help with article planning, or review drafts, I am
paid. This is a separate process from any interviews, and in some cases it
means I am not quoted in the article because I have become part of the
process of creating the article, and it's necessary to avoid conflict of
interest.

I have done both paid and unpaid work in my role as a costume researcher,
in accordance with the categories above.

> Again I do believe magazines do pay for certain stories if they are
> worth having. Some experts will give interviews but in many cases this
> is to promote a book or something similar (here at least)
> 
> Actually most journalists motives arn't high on my admire list I'm
> afraid, having been on the intrusive end of journos a few times.

>From what I've seen of a lot of British journalists, I wouldn't want to be
considered in the same field as them. It's very, very different.

In many cases, paying a source for an interview here would be tantamount
to ruining the credibility of the story. It's called "checkbook
journalism," and it's severely frowned upon.

> Well US acedemics might,. most if not all UK acedemics I have spoken
> to on the subject would rarely if ever do this for free and if they
> did would generally have a motive (eg book)

They wouldn't give an interview for free? I'm stunned. That's not the
impression I get from any of the academics I know (including in the UK).
Now, giving a lecture would be another matter, or writing something, or
doing research work, or reviewing material.

But we all present papers for free, and typically contribute articles to
books and journals at our own expense (for photo permissions, etc.). We
supply information on request to other researchers and (often) members of
the public, depending on the intended use. It's part of the territory.
(This puts me at a severe disadvantage, because I'm not affiliated with an
institution that has a budget for conference travel and publication
expenses.)

> I'm happy to give my time to people genuinly interested it things, but
> when you constantly see people making money out of you willingness to
> educate others (and often with films having your words twisted) you
> get jaded. It is nice you don't feel that way. Maybe I'm jusy old &
> bitter & twisted :)

I gather a lot has to do with how frequently you've been approached -- and
obviously a lot by people who don't treat you well. From what you've
described, I don't blame you at all for your reaction. And it's a real
pity. I know how frustrated we all get when media present costume
information incorrectly because they don't know who to ask or don't
realize that their sources are outdated; people like you are among the
best resources out there.

We don't have nearly so many opportunities to be interviewed on medieval
culture here. Not too many documentary makers for that period on these
shores ;-)

--Robin


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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Lavolta Press <fran@lavoltapress.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Seeking UK re-enactors
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I missed the beginning of this discussion but--there are journalists who 
research in various places, perhaps interview various people, grasp the 
subject as thoroughly as they can, and then sit down and write an 
article.  Which to me seems perfectly ethical.

Then there are "journalists" who want the "interviewee" to write the 
article for them.  Sometimes this is transcribing words from an oral 
interview with one person and doing no further research. Sometimes it's 
taking an Internet post or two and turning it into an article, with no 
further work than a little cutting and pasting. Sometimes the journalist 
gives the "interviewee" some credit, sometimes not.  But they always take 
all the pay.

It's even been suggested to me by an editor that I write (regular!) 
articles for her antiques newspaper, and she'd "rewrite them a little in 
her own words" and publish them as her articles solely under her own name, 
and take all the payment.  When I pointed out that I'm an equally 
professional writer and this was not a fair deal for me, she said that she 
was required to write a lot of articles but "just didn't have the time" and 
couldn't pay me for my work because she "just didn't have the budget."  I 
was astounded that it did not occur to her that there was no benefit to me 
in this arrangement.

What I'm getting at is, there are some thoroughly exploitive people who 
call themselves "journalists" and who do no more work than those high 
school students who pull their papers off net websites.  Often they _do_ 
ask permission, but they still aggressively exploit other people's work and 
expertise on as regular a basis as they can.

So, if anyone wants to "interview" you, or "use that message you posted on 
the net the other day" find out exactly what they want to do with your 
work, what's in the deal for them, and what's in it for you.  Because if 
all you want to do is express your opinions and don't want to get paid, you 
can do it yourself on the net under your own name any day.

Fran




> > I'm happy to give my time to people genuinly interested it things, but
> > when you constantly see people making money out of you willingness to
> > educate others (and often with films having your words twisted) you
> > get jaded. It is nice you don't feel that way. Maybe I'm jusy old &
> > bitter & twisted :)
>
>I gather a lot has to do with how frequently you've been approached -- and
>obviously a lot by people who don't treat you well. From what you've
>described, I don't blame you at all for your reaction. And it's a real
>pity. I know how frustrated we all get when media present costume
>information incorrectly because they don't know who to ask or don't
>realize that their sources are outdated; people like you are among the
>best resources out there.

Lavolta Press Books on Historic Costuming
http://www.lavoltapress.com
Historic and Vintage Dance
http://www.lavoltapress.com/dance 


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On Monday, March 31, 2003, at 07:15 PM, Kimiko Small wrote:

> At 04:00 PM 3/31/2003 -0700, you wrote:
>> It is from " De Tresoor van Jacob Jansz Poortvliet" written and
>> illustrated by Rien Poortvliet (famous Dutch painter).
>
> That's the same as "Daily Life in Holland in the Year 1566"? I love 
> the book with the many wonderful illustrations. And to think it can be 
> found in the children's sections of book stores. If the book stockers 
> only knew the scenes inside.
>
Well, Amazon.com has it listed at @39.95, for sale (used) at 
$123.69???? Available at Half.com for $79.00.  Currently out of stock 
at Barnes and Noble and Powell's.  Guess that mean's ILL for me!

Jessamyn/Grace

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what about looking in a sears catalog from that year?  aren't some of them 
on the web?

At 02:38 AM 3/31/2003 -0500, you wrote:
>Cassandra,
>
>Susan is working on re-vamping our 1912 children's right now.  Please write
>her at susan@costumegallery.com . We also have some children's in the 1908
>area in the library.  There's probably more... I am just really tired and
>can't think.  I am sorry... its been a really long day.
>
>Penny Ladnier
>Owner, The Costume Gallery & Costume Classroom
>http://www.costumegallery.com
>http://www.costumeclassroom.com
>http://www.onlinecostumeball.com
>
>
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Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2003 13:06:44 -0800 (PST)
From: Cin <hysteria95126@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Worth collection in paris?
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Quoth Michaela> I don't know if I've asked this here, but
is anyone aware of a "Worth
Collection in Paris? I'm looking at page 650 of Davenport's

History of
costume (the pattern and what looks to be extant costume) 
of a 17thC Spanish
gown. It's in the style of the 1650s but the caption says 
first quarter
17thC and that it's in "Paris, Worth Coll." 

Did you try correlating Davenport's pic with any of the
Musee de la Mode et du Costume in Paris?  This collection
is housed in the NW wing of the Louvre.  I dont recall a
gown of that description when I was there or in my rather
general catalog. I would look again, however, all my books
are in storage while our house undergoes chronic severe
restoration. Anyway, Musee de la Mode has a large Worth
collection. The Gallerie Layfayette frequently does
histories of Haute Couture collections.  That's where I'd
look first.  I have another catalog(?), that I cant recall
the name of, covering the houses, founders' careers & house
masterpieces of Worth, Doucet and Pingat.  Look there as
well?

Bonne chance!

=====
--cin
Cynthia
hysteria95126@yahoo.com

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Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2003 22:41:51 +0100
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Jean Waddie <anne@montgomerie.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] UK Boleyn Girl
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Kate M Bunting <K.M.Bunting@derby.ac.uk> wrote
>Cindy wrote:
>
>Kate Bunting
>Library, University of Derby
>
>>>> brujne@creighton.edu 03/31/03 07:04pm >>>
>>Could someone on the list in the UK post their impressions of the TV 
>>>programme "The Other Boleyn Girl"?
>
>This has been discussed in the thread "Tonight's UK television".
>
>In answer to Jean, yes, in one scene where Mary walked away from the 
>camera you could see the ends of her long hair hanging below the velvet 
>hood. I asked because I wasn't sure whether it was wrong, but thought 
>it more likely a married woman would put up her hair.
>
I can't think of any style, in any period, where hair is covered down to 
below the shoulders and then allowed to peek out the bottom of the veil 
or drape.  There are some where the hair is clearly seen all round and 
the veil is more of a decoration, as in Norman long plaits and some of 
the 14th/early 15th century styles where it's curled or braided or worn 
in earmuffs.  And there's the style for young girls of wearing the front 
lappets of a hennin or hood, with the hair loose behind.  But it sort of 
defeats the object if you cover it all very smartly and then let it hang 
out untidily at the end.

Jean
-- 
Jean Waddie
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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Lavolta Press <fran@lavoltapress.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Worth collection in paris?
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AI have another catalog(?), that I cant recall
>the name of, covering the houses, founders' careers & house
>masterpieces of Worth, Doucet and Pingat.  Look there as
>well?

The book _The Opulent Era: Fashions of Worth, Doucet and Pingat_
by Elizabeth Ann Coleman_?

Fran



Lavolta Press Books on Historic Costuming
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Historic and Vintage Dance
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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Neckline of Coronation Tunic of Henry II-another picture
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Saragrace Knauf wrote:

> http://www.saragrace.net/images/HII_CorTunic2.JPG
>
> This isn't a great picture either, but you can see some things in it
> that you can't see in others.    This is the Davenport picture.
>
>

>From this pic, it looks like a wide v-shaped decoration with a slightly
off
centre neckhole and a small square missing off the bottom. If the
embroidered bands are all that survived perhaps someone took a little
snip off at some point (to sew on their own clothes perhaps)
Claire


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Subject: Re: [h-cost] 15th century bone buttons
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Lisa Sinervo wrote:

> Up for sale on ebay at the moment is a bone with a number of holes in it described as a bone button making fragment.
>
>  http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=115&item=3216597228&rd=1
>
> My assumption would be buttons made this way would have to have two holes in them for thread to attach them to the garment, no shanks.  I was under the impression that such drilled buttons were at least 17th century.  Does anyone know of drilled buttons from the 15th century?  Or perhaps another way to attach round buttons obtained this way?
>
>

Perhaps they are moulds for worked or fabric covered buttons. They would then have a thread
shank (assuming that they are 15th century buttons and not something else or from
somewhen else).
Claire


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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Gabled headdress question
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michaela wrote:

>
> > http://jack-of-all-trades.ca/meandmine/ab4.html
>
> Screams 20thC copy of a victorian source of a 16thC costume;)
>
> Are you sure those are ruffles? They could be pearls, which would be much
> closer to the real mark.
>
> If you mean the wide band.. well that's defiantely not right, in the
> portraits extant to the time it's two pieces of fabric with one over the
> other at the top of the gable. This looks like one shaped piece.
>
> Other than that it's a decent copy.. even including that flap folded onto
> the head.. which I certainly never got;)
>
> I always associate Anne with the french hood of course.

But the queens on playing cards are traditionally wearing gable hoods,
usually an earlier form. What the wide frilly thing looks like to me is
an exaggeration of the frilled band on the forward edge of a french hood.
Perhaps it's a mix up between the two to satisfy both tradition and the
association of Anne with the french hood.
Or it could just be a bad Victorian picture....:-P

Claire

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From: Lee Thompson-Herbert <lee@retro.com>
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Subject: [h-cost] Isn't there a bra fitter on this list?
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I thought I remembered someone having done lingere fittings professionally
who used to post on this list...
I've got a question about how front-closure bras are supposed to fit.  I know
how to fit regular bras and even bullet bras and corsets, but this one's 
defeating me.  It appears to _me_ that one must use a slightly larger band
size than the measurements suggest, *and* one must go up in cup size.  That's
the part that makes no sense to me.  But whatever I'm doing, the front closure
doesn't rest anywhere near the breastbone, which I was always told means the
cup size is too small.  However, I've never fitted front-closing bras before
so I don't really know how it's _supposed_ to fit...

Oh the joys of having to costume around disabilities.  I now have to have a
dresser to assist me if I wear anything with a rear or side closure.  I may
just go back to fantasy costumes at this rate.

Lee M.Thompson-Herbert        lee@retro.com	      KoX 1995, SP4
Head Muso, White Rats Morris, Faultline Morris
Member, Knights of Xenu (1995).  Chaos Monger and Jill of All Trades.
"A head-on collision between Morticia Adams and Martha Stewart"
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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Tue Apr  1 19:34:30 2003
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Silver clay workshop in the UK
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"Melanie Wilson" <MelanieWilson@dragonflight.co.uk>
> I'm planning to run a Silver clay workshop later in the Spring for anyone
> interested.
> 
> Silver clay is a new product you shape your item from a special clat, fire
> it and it turns to pure silver.
> 
> This is a great way of reproducing costuming items such as brooches,
> chatelaines, rings, you name it, without being a jewwller.
> 
> The clay (like any silver) isn't cheap buit it is 100% silver and can be
> hallmarked

Is this the same stuff that's being sold as Precious Metal Clay here in the
US?  If so, there's now a gold one available as well.  The one caveat I 
learned from the class I took is that the stuff shrinks slightly.  Therefore,
the only stones one can pre-set are cubic zirconia.  Most natural stones will
shatter as the clay matrix melts away.  

Gah, I can't find which catalogue it's in.  I think Rio Grande here in the US
also sells ring-sizing masters meant for use with PMC.  It helps get around
the guesswork about shrinkage when you're making rings or making stone 
settings.

Lee M.Thompson-Herbert        lee@retro.com	      KoX 1995, SP4
Head Muso, White Rats Morris, Faultline Morris
Member, Knights of Xenu (1995).  Chaos Monger and Jill of All Trades.
"A head-on collision between Morticia Adams and Martha Stewart"
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Date: Tue, 01 Apr 2003 15:41:19 -0800
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Lavolta Press <fran@lavoltapress.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Isn't there a bra fitter on this list?
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>
>I've got a question about how front-closure bras are supposed to fit.

I used to have several, not for any special reason--they must have been in 
style or something.They had a plastic fastener in front, the parts fitted 
into each other. I always wore exactly the same band and cup size as 
always.  I don't see why the size should be different.  Maybe you're trying 
a bra from a different manufacturer than usual?

Fran


>   I know
>how to fit regular bras and even bullet bras and corsets, but this one's
>defeating me.  It appears to _me_ that one must use a slightly larger band
>size than the measurements suggest, *and* one must go up in cup size.




Lavolta Press Books on Historic Costuming
http://www.lavoltapress.com
Historic and Vintage Dance
http://www.lavoltapress.com/dance 


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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Silver clay workshop in the UK
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In a message dated 4/1/03 6:36:40 PM Eastern Standard Time, lee@retro.com 
writes:

> Gah, I can't find which catalogue it's in.  I think Rio Grande here in the 
> US
> also sells ring-sizing masters meant for use with PMC.  It helps get around
> the guesswork about shrinkage when you're making rings or making stone 
> settings.

Yes, Rio Grande is the catalog that sells PMC and ring-sizers.  They're in 
the 2002-2003 edition of the catalog, which I have (I had a short stint as a 
jewelry-maker.  Then my father forbid me from bringing a tank of propane for 
the little torch into the house!)

Christine
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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Tue Apr  1 21:11:21 2003
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From: "Glenda Robinson" <glendar@compassnet.com.au>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
References: <003101c2f810$2f64de20$e70977d8@pavilion>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] 15th century bone buttons
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2003 11:17:26 +1000
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According to the Museum of London's Dress Accessories book, covering
1150-1450, published in 1991, there have been no bone buttons reliably
identified from the mediaeval period - there has been some wast-bone panels
with circles cut from them, but they could have been used for other
purposes, eg beads.

Glenda.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Lisa Sinervo" <lsinervo@earthlink.net>
To: <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2003 3:33 PM
Subject: [h-cost] 15th century bone buttons


> Up for sale on ebay at the moment is a bone with a number of holes in it
described as a bone button making fragment.
>
>
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=115&item=3216597228&r
d=1
>
> My assumption would be buttons made this way would have to have two holes
in them for thread to attach them to the garment, no shanks.  I was under
the impression that such drilled buttons were at least 17th century.  Does
anyone know of drilled buttons from the 15th century?  Or perhaps another
way to attach round buttons obtained this way?
>
> Lisa Sinervo
> Threadneedle St. Clothiers
> www.ThreadneedleSt.com
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
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From: "Kendra Van Cleave" <kendrav@attbi.com>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Worth collection in paris?
Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2003 17:15:22 -0800
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I have no idea whether they have a Worth collection, but the Musee Galleria
in Paris has a historic costume collection as well.

- Kendra

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Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2003 17:22:40 -0800 (PST)
From: Cin <hysteria95126@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Worth collection in paris?
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>I have another catalog(?), that I cant recall
>the name of, covering the houses, founders' careers & 
house
>masterpieces of Worth, Doucet and Pingat.  Look there as
>well?

The book _The Opulent Era: Fashions of Worth, Doucet and 
Pingat_  by Elizabeth Ann Coleman_?

Exactly. Thanks, Fran,

=====
--cin
Cynthia
hysteria95126@yahoo.com

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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Worth collection in paris?
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I dislike doing this, but as no one has understood what gown I'm talking
about:
http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~thebruce/davenport.jpg

The gown to the left, and the pattern to the lower right.

I doubt it's a Worth gown, as Davenport puts in the 17thC section. So
looking at the Worth Collection at the Met is no help.

It's labelled as first quarter 17thC I'm sure Davenport would have mentioned
it's a 19thC copy if it was. The pattern also is nothing like I'd expect
from the late 19thC either.

I just wish she dealt with it in the text. Maybe it's a private collection..
maybe it was owned by Worth at one time...

Does anyone else have the book to confirm if she has say an appendix that
fully references images?

michaela
http://recital.tripod.com/costume



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From: Elizabeth Young <lizyoung@fenris.net>
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I have not been following this thread, so I hope I'm not stomping over 
already traveled ground. I happen to have Davenport in arm's reach right 
now.
Davenport states that it is in the Worth collection in Paris, not that 
it is a Worth gown. It is listed as First quarter XVIIc. Spanish. 
Spanish court dress and pattern.
In the sources of illustration section (which is an appendex) she states 
"Societe de l'historie du costume, Bulletin.

That's all!
Liz Young

michaela wrote:

>I dislike doing this, but as no one has understood what gown I'm talking
>about:
>http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~thebruce/davenport.jpg
>
>The gown to the left, and the pattern to the lower right.
>
>I doubt it's a Worth gown, as Davenport puts in the 17thC section. So
>looking at the Worth Collection at the Met is no help.
>
>It's labelled as first quarter 17thC I'm sure Davenport would have mentioned
>it's a 19thC copy if it was. The pattern also is nothing like I'd expect
>from the late 19thC either.
>
>I just wish she dealt with it in the text. Maybe it's a private collection..
>maybe it was owned by Worth at one time...
>
>Does anyone else have the book to confirm if she has say an appendix that
>fully references images?
>  
>


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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Tue Apr  1 22:03:12 2003
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From: "Lisa Sinervo" <lisa-list@threadneedlest.com>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10304010816180.12553-100000@shell.nightowl.net>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Seeking UK re-enactors
Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2003 18:15:24 -0800
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Robin you could try contacting Edith Cuffe the CEO of the Abbey Museum of
Art and Archaeology in Australia.  info@abbeymuseum.asn.au   There are quite
a few serious medieval re-enactors in Brisbane and they frequently travel to
the U.K.  She might, maybe, know of one.

Lisa


----- Original Message -----
From: "Robin Netherton" <robin@shell.nightowl.net>
To: "Historic Costume List" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2003 6:28 AM
Subject: [h-cost] Seeking UK re-enactors


>
> I've been contacted by a researcher working on a series for BBC 2 on
> medieval people.
>
> Among other things, she's looking for a female re-enactor in the UK she
> can interview for the show. She needs someone who has got historically
> accurate kit (as authentic as possible) and can talk knowledgeably about
> the clothing a gentry-level woman would wear and how she carries out daily
> tasks. The idea would be to show how the layering, etc. allows for
> practicality as well as display. (The aim of the series is to contrast
> some of the common popular "medieval" stereotypes with reality. So, folks,
> here's your chance to get some good information out there.)
>
> I have already done some checking around and found some excellent living
> history groups in England, but all of them have a focus of Norman period
> or earlier. In this case, we need someone much later -- mid-15th century
> would be ideal, though we could manage something around 1400. Think on the
> line of Margaret Paston -- country gentry, lady of the house.
>
> Naturally I need contacts right away. ;-)
>
> Thanks for any leads. You may feel free to repost this note on other
> relevant groups, but remember that we want ONLY someone focused on
> well-researched, exact costume. I gather she does *not* want someone to
> play a persona or describe any sort of modern re-enactment events.
>
> --Robin
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> h-costume@mail.indra.com
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	<038b01c2f8b5$a03e4640$eaf4fea9@glendaii>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] 15th century bone buttons
Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2003 18:20:35 -0800
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Thanks, I thought perhaps it might have been the Dress Accessories book that
had the bone with the circles cut out that I had seen before but I couldn't
remember the description and I don't have the book anymore.

Lisa

----- Original Message -----
From: "Glenda Robinson" <glendar@compassnet.com.au>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2003 5:17 PM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] 15th century bone buttons


> According to the Museum of London's Dress Accessories book, covering
> 1150-1450, published in 1991, there have been no bone buttons reliably
> identified from the mediaeval period - there has been some wast-bone
panels
> with circles cut from them, but they could have been used for other
> purposes, eg beads.
>
> Glenda.



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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Worth collection in paris?
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This is the catalog for the exhibit Coleman and her staff did at the
Brooklyn Museum some 20 years ago. It is superb.

MD/Marged

Lavolta Press wrote:
> 
>The book _The Opulent Era: Fashions of Worth, Doucet and Pingat_
> by Elizabeth Ann Coleman_?
> 
> Fran
> 
> Lavolta Press Books on Historic Costuming
> http://www.lavoltapress.com
> Historic and Vintage Dance
> http://www.lavoltapress.com/dance
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Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2003 21:17:53 -0500 (EST)
From: Katy Bishop <vintage@shore.net>
To: Cascio Michael <rosenau5@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] 1911 children's clothes
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On Sun, 30 Mar 2003, Cascio Michael wrote:

>Help!!!
>I am desperately in need of fashion plates or patterns
>for children's clothing specific to 1911 in the US.
>The newest exhibit in the museum needs new clothing

I have several fashion magazines from 1911.  It's a period I have yet to
publish a book on but I would be willing to look through them for kids
clothes.  I could xerox some pages for you if they would help.

Katy

Katy Bishop, Vintage Victorian
vintage@shore.net                www.VintageVictorian.com
     Custom reproduction gowns of the Victorian Era.
      Publisher of the Vintage Dress Series books.


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Boy, is everyone cranky on this topic! Must be a regional thing. Here in the
US, hardly anyone films such things (unless it's for The Learning Channel or
The History Channel, what my husband calls "The poor man's PBS -- except you
have to pay to see it!"). So nobody's burned out the way it seems our
wonderful UK posters are. I think most people in this country would be
thrilled by the offer, as long as it was a one-time thing. Now an ongoing
consultation, or numerous appearances -- then you're talking performance. It
must be nice to be in such demand!

Gail Finke

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Hi, and thank you, Melanie. My edition has it on pg D8, but does not mention coloring
stuffs for ruffs at all. It certainly gives a wonderful description of the construction
of supportases, though. Cheers, Mike T.




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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Wed Apr  2 00:25:59 2003
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] 15th century bone buttons
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Hi. There is no evidence to suggest that buttons with holes in them are any earlier than the late 17th, early 18th Cent. I know it seems odd that no one would just drill holes in them and sew them on, but it may be based on the way buttons were used in the earlier periods. As the MoL books show, and many art pieces attest, clothing with buttons
at least into the early years of the 17th Cent. had the buttons sewn onto the edge of the fabric as opposed to on the face of it. Flat buttons sewn directly onto fabric through holes in the button tend to be closer to the fabric than, say, buttons with longer shanks. If you look at finds catalogs and detector finds books, you see the shape of
button shanks changing in the late 17th Cent.. They become gradually closer to the fabric (i.e. the shank gets smaller). There are no hard and fast rules to this, though looking at paintings as well as existing (hopefully not tampered with) garments seen in JA's work as well as in Fashion in Detail and others, it seems so. Buttons of wood and
bone in the earlier period are conjectured to have been turned on a lathe, with a section of smaller diameter made to accomodate the shank, which was then drilled crosswise after the individual button was separated from the rest. I will check, but I believe there is an example in one of Ivor Hume's books on Archaeological finds from London.
Cheers, Mike T.



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> We will see, but it will be nice to have some feedback on this list from
> people who actually know what they're talking about.

Well at least the french hoods aren't that back-to-front sun visor shape;):
http://www.bbc.co.uk/drama/boleyn_wallpaper.shtml

Thought people might be interested in the wallpapers of images here:)

Mary's green dress in the first photo reminds me a lot of SCA tudor costumes
I've seen on the net.
http://www.google.co.nz/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=+site:www.bbc.c
o.uk+%22The+Other+Boleyn+Girl%22+bbc

All the pages at BBC.com with "The other Boleyn Gir" mentioned.. some
interesting bits and bobs in there indeed.

michaela
http://recital.tripod.com/costume



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> Davenport states that it is in the Worth collection in Paris, not that
> it is a Worth gown. It is listed as First quarter XVIIc. Spanish.
> Spanish court dress and pattern.

Which is what I'd said, but I think people saw Worth and assumed it was a
Worth gown.

> In the sources of illustration section (which is an appendex) she states
> "Societe de l'historie du costume, Bulletin.

Thank you:) That is exactly what I needed to to a proper search:)
Actually... I have another photo of a gown for that same society in an older
book...I'm wondering if they are reconstructions? Or if those gowns are now
in storage as they haven't been discussed elsewhere.. I think another photo
is needed..
http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~thebruce/reconstitution.jpg

This one is labelled Eleanore d'Autriche. Reconstitution de l'histoire de
costume. Musee Galliera. 1938.

So if this is the same thing as what is happening witht he one in
Davenport.. I wonder why she didn't label it as a reconstuction?

BTW, in the original book the above image looks to be heavily embroidered,
that's no brocade;)

So now I'm going to see if I can find out some more about this society and
find out what sources they used:)

michaela
http://recital.tripod.com/costume



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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Silver clay workshop in the UK
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The shrinkage is about 10% on the advanced formula I think

Mel

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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Isn't there a bra fitter on this list?
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> >
> >I've got a question about how front-closure bras are supposed to fit.
> 
> I used to have several, not for any special reason--they must have been in 
> style or something.They had a plastic fastener in front, the parts fitted 
> into each other. I always wore exactly the same band and cup size as 
> always.  I don't see why the size should be different.  Maybe you're trying 
> a bra from a different manufacturer than usual?

No, these are hook-fastened bras, not the tiny plastic fastener (which in
my memory always tended to come unfastened at the worst times).  Soft cup,
no underwire.  Same manufacturer as usual.  However, bras that have multiple
hooks at the front rather than at the back seem to be marketed to older ladies
and women with shoulder problems.  So the cut may be different than a normal
back-fastened bra.  The fit on this thing reminds me more of a sports bra 
than anything else, and I'm pretty sure it should not be.

Lee M.Thompson-Herbert        lee@retro.com	      KoX 1995, SP4
Head Muso, White Rats Morris, Faultline Morris
Member, Knights of Xenu (1995).  Chaos Monger and Jill of All Trades.
"A head-on collision between Morticia Adams and Martha Stewart"
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Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2003 00:35:05 -0800
From: Carolyn Kayta Barrows <kayta@frys.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Worth collection in paris?
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>I dislike doing this, but as no one has understood what gown I'm talking
>about:
>http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~thebruce/davenport.jpg
>
>The gown to the left, and the pattern to the lower right.

While I am unable to help you in your quest, I knew exactly what you were 
talking about.  That the dress is a photo, and that it is listed as being 
in the Worth collection, means it survived its original period by a number 
of years.  I, too, wonder where it is now, if anywhere.


Kayta

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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Worth collection in paris?
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 Thanks for the pic. Worth was known for collecting historical costume as
inspiration(or even remodeling in one case of a picture of an 18thc
gown--remember until comparatively recently garment fabric was expensive
while labor was cheap so it was normal to reuse, remodel, and remake)so
perhaps this mid 17th c Spanish gown does have Worth ties.

Cindy Abel

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	<001d01c2f8d3$2e7124b0$63c3adcb@michaela>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Tonight's UK television
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2003 09:54:43 -0600
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Yes, I downloaded the screensaver to my computer. In the same photo as
Mary's green dress, note Anne's stays(pair of bodies). The modern eyelets
stand out like sore thumbs to me.  Thanks to Janet Arnold's books I made my
current RenFaire dress with the largest jewerly-making jump rings I could
find. I marked and made lacing holes with a stylus, placed one ring on each
side of a hole and oversewed them in place with a buttonhole stitch.
Tricky(be nice to have three hands for this), but worth it.  I did cheat on
the gown by having the bodice and stays in one unit on my gown, but I can
get in and out of it myself and the Eastern Nebraska/Western Iowa area has
always had hot humid days for RenFaire in my area. Just my luck that those
in charge want to move the event to early fall for this year.

Cindy Abel
----- Original Message -----
From: "michaela" <thebruce@ihug.co.nz>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2003 10:48 PM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Tonight's UK television


> > We will see, but it will be nice to have some feedback on this list from
> > people who actually know what they're talking about.
>
> Well at least the french hoods aren't that back-to-front sun visor
shape;):
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/drama/boleyn_wallpaper.shtml
>
> Thought people might be interested in the wallpapers of images here:)
>
> Mary's green dress in the first photo reminds me a lot of SCA tudor
costumes
> I've seen on the net.
>
http://www.google.co.nz/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=+site:www.bbc.c
> o.uk+%22The+Other+Boleyn+Girl%22+bbc
>
> All the pages at BBC.com with "The other Boleyn Gir" mentioned.. some
> interesting bits and bobs in there indeed.
>
> michaela
> http://recital.tripod.com/costume
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2003 10:54:15 -0500 (EST)
From: Katy Bishop <vintage@shore.net>
To: Cynthia Abel <brujne@creighton.edu>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Worth collection in paris?
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On Wed, 2 Apr 2003, Cynthia Abel wrote:

>
> Thanks for the pic. Worth was known for collecting historical costume as
>inspiration(or even remodeling in one case of a picture of an 18thc
>gown--remember until comparatively recently garment fabric was expensive
>while labor was cheap so it was normal to reuse, remodel, and remake)so
>perhaps this mid 17th c Spanish gown does have Worth ties.

I wonder if one could track down where Worth's private collection of
clothing, historical and otherwise, ended up, perhaps it's at one of the
Paris Museums.  Maybe one could contact a Worth scholar.  Ann Coleman
(who wrote the Worth Doucet and Pingat book) at the MFA in Boston comes
to mind.

Katy Bishop, Vintage Victorian
vintage@shore.net                www.VintageVictorian.com
     Custom reproduction gowns of the Victorian Era.
      Publisher of the Vintage Dress Series books.

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Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2003 08:29:46 -0800 (PST)
From: Valencia Grange <valencia_grange@yahoo.com>
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Subject: [h-cost] Re: Seeking UK re-enactors
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Robin,

You've very eloquently expressed what I believe are
the standards by which professional journalists work
(being one myself, of course, I am inclined to give
most of us the benefit of the doubt). I do think
re-enactors in the US are probably more open to this
kind of approach because we get fewer requests for it,
but it seems to me there is a clear difference between
being interviewed and doing a performance.

After all, being interviewed as a expert offers such
good publicity for the interviewee that there's a
whole industry dedicated to soliciting interviews
(PR).

I wish I had some good UK references for you...

Valencia (somewhat new to this list and mostly lurking
in awe)

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Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2003 08:36:23 -0800 (PST)
From: Cascio Michael <rosenau5@yahoo.com>
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Subject: [h-cost] Worth collection in Paris
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I'll through my two cents in on this one as I was just
scanning my local university library shelves for those
books too old to be on the computer.  The U of
Illinois was founded in 1867 and not computerized
until much later.  Everything acquired after
1970something is in the computer but everything
acquired prior to that is in the card catalog which is
not updated now.  With 38 different library buildings
and rooms on campus you can find alot of neat old
stuff.  As to the reconstruction gowns...I just
checked out a series of 1889-1892 monographs of
Shakesperean costume patterns.  They look really
period except the silhouette is late 1890s.  Didn't
Worth also design gowns for all the fancy costume
parties given by the rich at that time?  Some of the
Victorians did do alot of good costume research,
including codpieces because they could be risque
because it was period.
    If anyone on the list is really into the Victorian
version of historic costume I could xerox these and
send them on, although there's alot of pages.  I don't
have my own site to post them but I'm fairly sure
they're out of copyright.
    Have a productive day with lots of sewing all,
                           Cassandra

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Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2003 08:45:28 -0800
From: Kimiko Small <kimiko@kimiko1.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Isn't there a bra fitter on this list?
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At 11:41 PM 4/1/2003 -0800, you wrote:
>No, these are hook-fastened bras, not the tiny plastic fastener (which in
>my memory always tended to come unfastened at the worst times).  Soft cup,
>no underwire.  Same manufacturer as usual.  However, bras that have multiple
>hooks at the front rather than at the back seem to be marketed to older ladies
>and women with shoulder problems.  So the cut may be different than a normal
>back-fastened bra.  The fit on this thing reminds me more of a sports bra
>than anything else, and I'm pretty sure it should not be.

 > Lee M.Thompson-Herbert



I have a bra like that. I bought it for my pregnancy time when I had to 
wear something all the time. It fits like a sports bra, and fastens across 
the breast area getting nowhere near the breast bone. It is the same size 
as the rest of my bras, and is a lot more comfortable in many ways. I wear 
a C cup, and tried on a D cup with this style, and just swam in the D cup. 
I don't think it was supposed to fit near the breast bone in this case. It 
also has a much larger back area, being a large piece and not a strap, 
which helped me with supporting the pregnancy tender breasts.

I hope that helped answer whatever you were looking for.

Kimiko



Kimiko Small
Costumer, Fiber Artist, Web Designer, Wife and Mother
kimiko@kimiko1.com; http://www.kimiko1.com

Graphic Intern at Costume Gallery
http://www.costumegallery.com

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Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2003 13:33:47 -0600
From: "Linda J. Thompson" <LindaJThompson@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Isn't there a bra fitter on this list?
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As a long time front fastener... They do fit differently.
Perhaps this is why.... Many bras that attach in the back have the cross the front thing 
going, or something very similar, with more supporting shape to the center front.  With a 
front fastened bra you have the hook and eye tape to contend with, this takes up space, 
plus you can't do cross the front.

If you can find an underwire bra in your size that has the front opening, it will fit more 
snugly to the center front.
-- 
Linda Thompson

Attitude Is Everything
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Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2003 13:36:11 -0600
From: "Linda J. Thompson" <LindaJThompson@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] 15th century bone buttons
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Is it possible that this might have been a "holder" of some sort for doing bound or 
wrapped buttons.  Like take the fabrid, lay it over the hole, tuck the wood or bone base 
and push it into the holder on top of the fabric.  This would hold the buttin into place 
while you created the shank?

Just a thought.
-- 
Linda Thompson

Attitude Is Everything
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Worth collection in paris?
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Hi.
Thanks for those valuable informations. Well i thoaght it was a real 17th
century survived garment from Spain.
What a shame.

Bjarne


Leif og Bjarne Drews
www.my-drewscostumes.dk

http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mary Denise Smith" <editor@costumepress.com>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2003 4:12 PM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Worth collection in paris?


> If I am thinking of the same dress you are thinking of, it was exhibited
> at the Museum of the City of New York some years ago in their big
> shindig on Worth. I thought they owned it because the gown itself was
> made for a "fancy dress ball" thrown in New York City by Alva Vanderbilt
> in 1898 (?).
>
> Hope this helps,
>
> MD/Marged
> _______________________________________________
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From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" <drewscph@post12.tele.dk>
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	<20030401210644.16599.qmail@web14005.mail.yahoo.com><007201c2f8b8$3ae5e110$67ccadcb@michaela>
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Worth collection in paris?
Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2003 00:13:46 +0200
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Hello
This makes sence to me. This is what i always thoaght it was, a spanish
court dress.
Thanks.
I really could not figure out how it came in with Worth.

Bjarne

Leif og Bjarne Drews
www.my-drewscostumes.dk

http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/
----- Original Message -----
From: "Elizabeth Young" <lizyoung@fenris.net>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2003 3:51 AM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Worth collection in paris?


> I have not been following this thread, so I hope I'm not stomping over
> already traveled ground. I happen to have Davenport in arm's reach right
> now.
> Davenport states that it is in the Worth collection in Paris, not that
> it is a Worth gown. It is listed as First quarter XVIIc. Spanish.
> Spanish court dress and pattern.
> In the sources of illustration section (which is an appendex) she states
> "Societe de l'historie du costume, Bulletin.
>
> That's all!
> Liz Young
>
> michaela wrote:
>
> >I dislike doing this, but as no one has understood what gown I'm talking
> >about:
> >http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~thebruce/davenport.jpg
> >
> >The gown to the left, and the pattern to the lower right.
> >
> >I doubt it's a Worth gown, as Davenport puts in the 17thC section. So
> >looking at the Worth Collection at the Met is no help.
> >
> >It's labelled as first quarter 17thC I'm sure Davenport would have
mentioned
> >it's a 19thC copy if it was. The pattern also is nothing like I'd expect
> >from the late 19thC either.
> >
> >I just wish she dealt with it in the text. Maybe it's a private
collection..
> >maybe it was owned by Worth at one time...
> >
> >Does anyone else have the book to confirm if she has say an appendix that
> >fully references images?
> >
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Wed Apr  2 18:14:07 2003
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From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" <drewscph@post12.tele.dk>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
References: <BAAE8512.220B%mjh@pearlandplume.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: Deeper Thoughts--movies
Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2003 00:01:14 +0200
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Hi.
I was late to see it two, baught the DVD and i love it.
Only thing i hate is Marie Antoinette wearing sunglasses at the park of
Versailles, and her stage costume. It is hidious.
But i love all the other costumes, wonderfull.
Did you see that the jacket Marie Antoinette is wearing in the park, is the
same, as the Kyoto Book, embroidered jacket with a gillet front?
I am very tempted to try to make a toile of this jacket.

Bjarne




Leif og Bjarne Drews
www.my-drewscostumes.dk

http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/
----- Original Message -----
From: "Marsha Hamilton" <mjh@pearlandplume.com>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2003 6:51 AM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: Deeper Thoughts--movies


> > Obligatory costume content: Finally saw "The Affair of
> > the Necklace" last night. Ohmigod, the clothes were
> > nothing short of stunning! This is definitely one to
> > add to the DVD collection for "sewing movies."
> >
> > Dawn
> >
> > =====
>
> Have you seen "The Triumph of Love"?  An 18th-century comedic satire of
the
> mistaken identity/women in men's clothing ilk.  Many recognizable British
> and American actors, including Mira Sorvino and Ben Kingsley.  Not up to
> "Affair of the Necklace" standards but any yardage is good for the eyes
and
> soul.
>
> Marsha
>
> _______________________________________________
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> h-costume@mail.indra.com
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>


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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Classes in Brisbane AU
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thanks for the suggestions -- I'll forward them on!


On Tuesday, April 1, 2003, at 06:32 AM, Lisa Sinervo wrote:

> The Morteon Institute of TAFE offers an industry based fashion program 
> which
> is in Mt. Gravatt a suburb of Brisbane.  It offers day and evening 
> classes
> including all the standard patternmaking courses.  You don't actually 
> have
> to be "offered" a spot to take a course although the literature often 
> makes
> it seem that way.  It's worth talking to the department to get in. 
> Chris
> something or other is the flat-pattern instructor and she is super.  
> Most of
> the people there have worked in industry/production and it shows.  The
> slopers they use there have seam allowances because it is faster to 
> make
> patterns that way.  You only have to add allowances where you cut or 
> slash
> etc.... it took some getting used to.
>
> Queensland University of Technology in the city of Brisbane was just 
> about
> to open a university degree program when I left that was more design 
> based.
> One would probably have to be a full time "college" student to
> participate.......but also worth trying.
>
> Lisa
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Heather Meadows" <alice@wonderland.com>
> To: <sewretro@yahoogroups.com>
> Cc: <h-costume@indra.com>
> Sent: Monday, March 31, 2003 10:13 PM
> Subject: [h-cost] Classes in Brisbane AU
>
>
>>
>> I got email from someone via my website who is looking for
>> recommendations for sewing/pattern drafting classes in
>> the Brisbane, Australia area.  Anyone from around there on
>> the list?
>>
>>
>> Heather
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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>
>
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From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" <drewscph@post12.tele.dk>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
References: 
	<20030401210644.16599.qmail@web14005.mail.yahoo.com><007201c2f8b8$3ae5e110$67ccadcb@michaela><3E8A4213.5030600@fenris.net>
	<002a01c2f8ce$c3d828f0$63c3adcb@michaela>
Subject: Re: Societe de l'historie du costume was Re: [h-cost] Worth
	collection inparis?
Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2003 00:25:45 +0200
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Hello again.
I think the reason why noone has bothered to find out more of this, is
because it is a spanish court dress.
Spain used other fashions as the rest of Europe, They continued to use
farthingales long up into the 17th century,
The late version of the farthingale, as this dress shows, was an oval drum
shaped farthingale, very like the later 18th. century pannier style.
Some time in early 18th century, where no frame was used yeat in france,
Lisselotte writes about a dress the queen had ben gifted from Spain, where
there were metal hoops in the underskirt. So Spain used frames trough the
whole 17th century. Liselotte i refer to is Kurfurstin von Pfaltz, she
writes a lot about modes and manners in her letters wich is publised.

Leif og Bjarne Drews
www.my-drewscostumes.dk

http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/
----- Original Message -----
From: "michaela" <thebruce@ihug.co.nz>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2003 6:17 AM
Subject: Societe de l'historie du costume was Re: [h-cost] Worth collection
inparis?


> > Davenport states that it is in the Worth collection in Paris, not that
> > it is a Worth gown. It is listed as First quarter XVIIc. Spanish.
> > Spanish court dress and pattern.
>
> Which is what I'd said, but I think people saw Worth and assumed it was a
> Worth gown.
>
> > In the sources of illustration section (which is an appendex) she states
> > "Societe de l'historie du costume, Bulletin.
>
> Thank you:) That is exactly what I needed to to a proper search:)
> Actually... I have another photo of a gown for that same society in an
older
> book...I'm wondering if they are reconstructions? Or if those gowns are
now
> in storage as they haven't been discussed elsewhere.. I think another
photo
> is needed..
> http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~thebruce/reconstitution.jpg
>
> This one is labelled Eleanore d'Autriche. Reconstitution de l'histoire de
> costume. Musee Galliera. 1938.
>
> So if this is the same thing as what is happening witht he one in
> Davenport.. I wonder why she didn't label it as a reconstuction?
>
> BTW, in the original book the above image looks to be heavily embroidered,
> that's no brocade;)
>
> So now I'm going to see if I can find out some more about this society and
> find out what sources they used:)
>
> michaela
> http://recital.tripod.com/costume
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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From: Heather Rose Jones <hrjones@socrates.berkeley.edu>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] 15th century bone buttons
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At 6:20 PM -0800 4/1/03, Lisa Sinervo wrote:
>Thanks, I thought perhaps it might have been the Dress Accessories book that
>had the bone with the circles cut out that I had seen before but I couldn't
>remember the description and I don't have the book anymore.

Another good place to look for bone information is:

MacGregor, Arthur.  1985.  Bone, Antler, Ivory & Horn.  Croom Helm, London.

Heather
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Heather Rose Jones
hrjones@socrates.berkeley.edu
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From: Agnes Gawne <gawne@mac.com>
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Subject: [h-cost] Re: Societe de l'histoire du costume
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I believe the SOCIETE DE L¹HISTOIRE ET DU COSTUME is now part of the Musée
Galliera (Musée de la mode de la ville de Paris).  It is  the costume museum
near the Eiffel Tower that was the former home of the Countess Galliera.

The following information in is on their website on a page giving thanks to
people for a most recent show.   It appears this group is the "friends" of
the museum group.

la SOCIETE DE L¹HISTOIRE ET DU COSTUME, Société d¹amis du musée Galliera
Monsieur Guy de Brantes, Président
Madame Françoise Blanchet, Trésorière
The society was founded by a Mr. Leloir (IIRC) and their collection was
given to the City of Paris in the 1920s or so.  That is the foundation of
the collection of the current Musée Galliera.  Of course there are other
things in the collection today.  That's what I remember from visiting there.

You may try to email them for more information, although considering the
language barriers (If you aren't fluent in French) you may be better off
corresponding with them on paper and including a photocopy of the dress in
question.  Most of their collection never sees the light of day but some
curator must know what they have.

Their website is http://www.paris.fr/musees/Musee_Galliera/




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From: Cascio Michael <rosenau5@yahoo.com>
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Subject: [h-cost] Victorian version of Shakespearean costume
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Hi all,
   I wanted to make sure that my last post was clear. 
The Shakespearean monographs from 1889-92 remind me of
Delineators with a sketch and then a written
description.  There are no patterns or sketches of
pattern pieces.  Each monograph has sketches for all
the characters in a particular play, sometimes more
than one change depending on the character.  There are
9 volumes of which I've found 5 so there are several
hundred pages.  You can e-mail me privately if you
want copies so I can xerox everything all at once. 
I'm beginning to develop a real fondness for Victorian
fancy dress and national dress.  The written
descriptions make me want the fabrics they had
available then even more than usual.
                              Cassandra

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Subject: [h-cost] Victorian "wedding" dresses?
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I've been adding a number of costume images to my Real Regency & Victorian
Clothing directory, and as I do so I've been having a contemplation...

What's with the number of so-called wedding gowns dating from the mid- to
late-19th century (1830's-1890's) that are cut as evening dresses?  Here are
my questions:

1.  Were weddings ever held in the evening during this period?
2.  If not, was it considered proper to wear a low-necked, short-sleeved
dress during the day to your wedding?

My hunch to both of those questions is no -- if so, then I'm assuming that
museum curators have assumed that because a dress is white, it must be a
wedding dress.  I do know that while white dresses were often used for
wedding dresses in the 19th c., this wasn't always the case, and often women
wore what was considered a "best dress."

Some examples of this phenomenon:
http://www.bridallexington.com/museum/plate3.jpg
http://www.mcny.org/Collections/costume/worth/costume13.htm
http://www.bridallexington.com/museum/plate1.jpg (right-hand dress)
http://makeashorterlink.com/?Z4FE32114

Any thoughts or sources would be appreciated!

- Kendra

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Combining posts:)
Cindy:
>  Thanks for the pic. Worth was known for collecting historical costume as
> inspiration(or even remodeling in one case of a picture of an 18thc
> gown--remember until comparatively recently garment fabric was expensive
> while labor was cheap so it was normal to reuse, remodel, and remake)so
> perhaps this mid 17th c Spanish gown does have Worth ties.


That was what I tought. I am sure that I too read somewhere that he had a
collection of historical garments. So perhaps the Society was able to use a
garment from his collection to reconstruct?

Kayta:
> While I am unable to help you in your quest, I knew exactly what you were
> talking about.  That the dress is a photo, and that it is listed as being
> in the Worth collection, means it survived its original period by a number
> of years.  I, too, wonder where it is now, if anywhere.

It would be fantiastic to se if it's still around and if there are photos in
colour or from the front of the gown.

Bjarne:
> I think the reason why noone has bothered to find out more of this, is
> because it is a spanish court dress.

Possibly. I know when I did a search even for spanish costume 17th century I
got no recreaion hits. So people who are interested just don't seem to be
hitting the search engines well.

> The late version of the farthingale, as this dress shows, was an oval drum
> shaped farthingale, very like the later 18th. century pannier style.

Yes, though I'm curious as to the dating of it. The styles oft he first
quarter have all been much more like the gowns in the late 16thC. I've seen
a few of the style in the 1740s, but not earlier.

> Some time in early 18th century, where no frame was used yeat in france,
> Lisselotte writes about a dress the queen had ben gifted from Spain, where
> there were metal hoops in the underskirt.

Now that's brilliant. Actual identified use of *metal* hoops. Loves those
tidbits of information:)

Agnes:
> I believe the SOCIETE DE L¹HISTOIRE ET DU COSTUME is now part of the Musée
> Galliera (Musée de la mode de la ville de Paris).  It is  the costume
museum
> near the Eiffel Tower that was the former home of the Countess Galliera.

Ahhh.. I was going to do a search on Musee Gelliera as it was mentioned in
that other image, but I thought it basically translated as Museum gallery..
as in their museum;) Thanks for the info. I may be able to get someone to
write a letter for me, and they conveniently live in Paris so that's a
help;)

I also found a book apparently by M Leloir, so maybe that is in fact a sort
of catalogue of their work? It had the society's name in the title
somewhere...

Thanks for the site:) Pity they only go back to the 18thC with the online
collection.

What incredibly adorable thumbnails... it's given me an idea for my own
page... how to get all my costumes on one page.. excellent;)

Next time I get to Paris I'm going there!;)

michaela
http://recital.tripod.com/costume




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References: <004b01c2f987$1d9ee910$befc8218@hopperflop2>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Victorian "wedding" dresses?
Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2003 14:54:39 +1200
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> What's with the number of so-called wedding gowns dating from the mid- to
> late-19th century (1830's-1890's) that are cut as evening dresses?  Here
are
> my questions:
> 1.  Were weddings ever held in the evening during this period?
> 2.  If not, was it considered proper to wear a low-necked, short-sleeved
> dress during the day to your wedding?

It depends. There are a few plates I've seen from the 60s and 70s that had a
dinner dress type neckline. And I have a few photos of dolls dressed as
brides from that time with the same neckline. But in the 80s there isa
definate shift to a high neckline.

> My hunch to both of those questions is no -- if so, then I'm assuming that
> museum curators have assumed that because a dress is white, it must be a
> wedding dress.  I do know that while white dresses were often used for
> wedding dresses in the 19th c., this wasn't always the case, and often
women
> wore what was considered a "best dress."

For less than wealthy sure.

> Some examples of this phenomenon:
> http://www.bridallexington.com/museum/plate3.jpg

Wow. Wow.... sorry but I love this dress. It does seem a bit stark for
simply an evening dress though. Have you got Our New Clothes? Its a
catalogue of an exhibit at teh Met and one section is about white dresses. I
don't think any of them are wedding dresses, and a few are as stark as this,
so I don't know. Wasn't Queen victoria's wedding dress shaped like this in
that it hwad a wide low neckline? Or am I confusing it with her coronation
dress...

> http://www.mcny.org/Collections/costume/worth/costume13.htm

Well they do mention it's provenance so I'd be sceptical that it wasn't her
wedding dress.

There is a photo of a royal bride at this time who had a ball gown type
neckline. So it seems the more wealthy were able to have the low necklines,
and the more aristocratic you were the lower it could be. The middle classes
though had a whole different set of morality and that probably extended to
weddings as well.
> http://www.bridallexington.com/museum/plate1.jpg (right-hand dress)
Sigh.. I'm loving these white dresses.. I havea  real love of these... see
my note above about this ball type neckline.

Also rememebr that brides also wore their dress after being married to
functions and I'm wondering if they didn't have a seperate bodice for that.
Or if they altered the bodice for those events.

> http://makeashorterlink.com/?Z4FE32114

Another instance of the above perhaps?


michaela
http://recital.tripod.com/costume



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From: "Lisa Sinervo" <lisa-list@threadneedlest.com>
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] 15th century bone buttons
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Status: RO

Thanks Heather!

----- Original Message -----
From: "Heather Rose Jones" <hrjones@socrates.berkeley.edu>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2003 9:28 AM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] 15th century bone buttons


> At 6:20 PM -0800 4/1/03, Lisa Sinervo wrote:
> >Thanks, I thought perhaps it might have been the Dress Accessories book
that
> >had the bone with the circles cut out that I had seen before but I
couldn't
> >remember the description and I don't have the book anymore.
>
> Another good place to look for bone information is:
>
> MacGregor, Arthur.  1985.  Bone, Antler, Ivory & Horn.  Croom Helm,
London.
>
> Heather
> --
> *****
> Heather Rose Jones
> hrjones@socrates.berkeley.edu
> *****
> _______________________________________________
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From: Agnes Gawne <gawne@mac.com>
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Subject: [h-cost] Musee Galliera
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Be sure to check if there is a show on at the Musée Galliera if you go to
Paris, they often have shows that are just fashion photography and things
like that.  I wouldn't make a special trip there unless you had arranged
ahead to use their library or something.  Occasionally they have a
"show-stopping" exhibition but they usually have few garments on display.

They have put out some great catalogs over the years, one at the 200th
anniversary of the French revolution called "Modes et Revolucions", another
that covered a large time period but was specifically about garden and
floral images in garments called "De la mode et de la jardin", it was
beautiful, and more recently I picked one up all on bridal customs and
fashions called "Mariage".  They are all in French only, I don't know of any
English versions of them.  (But the photos are great).  The publisher is
usually "Musees Paris"

> From: "michaela" <thebruce@ihug.co.nz>
> 
> Next time I get to Paris I'm going there!;)
> 


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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Lavolta Press <fran@lavoltapress.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Victorian "wedding" dresses?
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>1.  Were weddings ever held in the evening during this period?

One practice for some formal day events, including some weddings, and 
things like formal New Year's Day receptions, was to _pretend_ it was 
evening. You drew the curtains, lighted the gas, and told the guests to 
wear evening dress.

>2.  If not, was it considered proper to wear a low-necked, short-sleeved
>dress during the day to your wedding?

See above. The bride often chose as fancy a dress as she could afford, and 
that fitted her lifestyle.  If it was a formal dress, she wore it to 
parties after the wedding, and in fact was expected to wear it to the ones 
given to congratulate her on her new status.

On the other hand, white was also a popular color for non-wedding evening 
dresses, and for summer day dresses in some periods. And a fair number of 
brides were married in colored day dresses or traveling dresses.


>My hunch to both of those questions is no -- if so, then I'm assuming that
>museum curators have assumed that because a dress is white, it must be a
>wedding dress.

Vintage clothing dealers often assume this too.   But on the other hand, 
not infrequently there is some form of family documentation presented to 
the dealer or museum when they acquire the dress, and they are going on 
that basis.

Fran



Lavolta Press Books on Historic Costuming
http://www.lavoltapress.com
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http://www.lavoltapress.com/dance 


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Englishwomens' Clothing in the 19th cent. by Cunnington for 1864 says, 
"Wedding dresses may be made with either a high or low bodice.  Morning 
dresses of serge are a novelty, while satin is restord to favour for 
evening. New Materials: plush velvet, embroidered moires, muslins printed 
with imitation ruches and pleatings."  By 1868, per the same source, wedding 
dresses are usually of white satin, with a high square cut bodice, very low, 
with a chemisette."  So it sounds like they might not be wrong that a white 
dress might be a wedding dress, and I expect you would make it in the style 
that would be most useful after the wedding.   I haven't checked the rest of 
the book for suceeding centuries.   HTH!



Nancy Kiel
nancy_kiel@hotmail.com
Never tease a weasel!
This is very good advice.
For the weasel will not like it
And teasing isn't nice.





>
>>1.  Were weddings ever held in the evening during this period?
>
>
>>2.  If not, was it considered proper to wear a low-necked, short-sleeved
>>dress during the day to your wedding?
>


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Fred Struthers carries their catalogs.  His email is fsbks@mcn.org.

Fran


>  on display.
>
>They have put out some great catalogs over the years, one at the 200th
>anniversary of the French revolution called "Modes et Revolucions", another
>that covered a large time period but was specifically about garden and
>floral images in garments called "De la mode et de la jardin", it was
>beautiful, and more recently I picked one up all on bridal customs and
>fashions called "Mariage".  They are all in French only, I don't know of any
>English versions of them.  (But the photos are great).  The publisher is
>usually "Musees Paris"
>

Lavolta Press Books on Historic Costuming
http://www.lavoltapress.com
Historic and Vintage Dance
http://www.lavoltapress.com/dance 


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Subject: [h-cost] CSA Symposium Saturday
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Is anyone going to the CSA symposium in Sturbridge this Saturday?

Beth Chamberlain
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Victorian "wedding" dresses?
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One thing that I have noticed from my 1882 and 1922 etiquette books is that
weddings were held a lot in the autumn.

Penny Ladnier
Owner, The Costume Gallery & Costume Classroom
http://www.costumegallery.com
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In a message dated 4/2/2003 9:56:46 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
thebruce@ihug.co.nz writes:


> http://www.bridallexington.com/museum/plate3.jpg
> 
> 

Beautiful....and it "solves" some of the dilemma. This is a day neckline for 
the 1840s. Some 1830s and 1840s day dresses have horizontal necklines.

White dresses can also be used for "coming out," remember.
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Victorian "wedding" dresses?
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Sorry... I am going through a lot of bridal articles lately.  In both of the
etiquette books I mentioned the bride and bridesmaids were to wear white.
The bride's dress was supposed to be more embellished than the bridesmaids.
We are working on getting these etiquette books online.  But they are large
so it will take a while.

I have one bridesmaid's photo online from the 1929
http://www.costumegallery.com/bartnik.jpg  and it was white and fancy.  I
have seen photos from the rest of this wedding party and all the bridesmaids
wore white.  The bride's dress was fancier and trained.

I have also seen a number of wedding photos of late Victorian through the
20s and this white trend for the bride and bridesmaids was popular.
Personally, I have not seen photos of a bride not in white during late
Victorian era in a formal wedding.  During WW2 there was a trend of pastels
used for bridal dresses.  A couple of years ago, we talked in depth about
this and I know it is in the archives.

As for high necklines... I think through early to mid-Victorian you will see
the lower necklines.  From 1880-Edwardian you will see the high collars.

I have not read all the text about the bridal parties from the etiquette
books... the sections are lengthy and cover every aspect of weddings.  I
will be copying these books in the next couple of weeks to send to our
interns.  I am sure the books cover the time of day for the weddings.  Heck,
they cover everything else.

One last thing, I just checked a Ladies Home Journal 1894 article about a
home wedding.  There was no mention of the color of the bride's dress.

Penny Ladnier
Owner, The Costume Gallery & Costume Classroom
http://www.costumegallery.com
http://www.costumeclassroom.com
http://www.onlinecostumeball.com


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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Victorian "wedding" dresses?
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http://www.bridallexington.com/museum/plate3.jpg

This dress is very similar to the 1838 fashion plate restoration project
that I showed you all recently.

Penny Ladnier
Owner, The Costume Gallery & Costume Classroom
http://www.costumegallery.com
http://www.costumeclassroom.com
http://www.onlinecostumeball.com


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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Victorian "wedding" dresses?
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>My hunch to both of those questions is no -- if so, then I'm assuming that
>museum curators have assumed that because a dress is white, it must be a
>wedding dress.

This is not the assumption among curators.  White dresses for summer have
been worn seen since the early 1800s.  I have seen over 40 white lawn
dresses in the Valentine's collection from 1900-1914ish.

Wedding dresses generally come into museums with lots of documentation.  I
worked in the Valentine's wedding dress collection for two months and
handled each one personally.  (2 months of WOW look at the one!!!) They
house the largest collection of wedding dresses in the U.S.  Dresses are
only accepted into the collection IF there is documentation of the wearer
and the date of the wedding.  Many come with photos of the bride.

The Valentine's wedding collection starts with one of George Washington
niece's robe a la franche (sp) wedding dress.  I have dressed the costume
out on a mannequin.  It is gold colored.  Their earliest white dress is
1800-1810.  I can't recall the date off hand... darn, I worked on this
exhibit.  Jennie Chancey, who say the exhibit, took photos and wrote down
the documentation from the exhibit card.  I think Ron C. from the list also
toured this exhibit with me.  If he did, Ron, it was the first dress in the
case near the stairs.  It was the Over' and Under' exhibit with the corsets,
wire bustle cages, and beautiful fishtail bustle dresses.  I think Ron's
wife might have taken photos too.

I can tell you from the collection, I can count on two hands the number of
wedding dresses that were not white.  I don't recall how many wedding
dresses are in the collection... but I do know being largest collection is
one of their bragging claims.  If you can image in storage, the wedding
dress area is one long (length of the warehouse) rounder like for hanging
clothes at the dry cleaners with that is mobile.  The rounder is about 8 ft.
high.  I will always remember that because I had to use a small step ladder
to get each dress down.

I love wedding dresses, each have their own personality.  And no, in the
collection, I never saw two dresses alike.

Penny Ladnier
Owner, The Costume Gallery & Costume Classroom
http://www.costumegallery.com
http://www.costumeclassroom.com
http://www.onlinecostumeball.com


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<<Be sure to check if there is a show on at the Musée Galliera if you go to
Paris, they often have shows that are just fashion photography and things
like that.  I wouldn't make a special trip there unless you had arranged
ahead to use their library or something. >>

God no. It's over two grand to fly to Europe from here. I said next time I'm
in paris. There are so many museums I still want to visit in Europe. But I
have to wait and my health is still so up in the air I don't think I'll be
getting there for several years.

So when that time comes I'll be flooding the list with queries about must
see costume collections:)

michaela
http://recital.tripod.com/costume



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From: =?iso-8859-1?q?N=20Kipar?= <nicolas_fouquet@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: Seeking UK re-enactors
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 --- Valencia Grange <valencia_grange@yahoo.com> wrote: > 
> After all, being interviewed as a expert offers such
> good publicity for the interviewee that there's a
> whole industry dedicated to soliciting interviews
> (PR).

Valencia, it is very different here in the UK, there is too much, too many
requests and one cannot even be bothered about the PR factor anymore because it
just isn't worth it, especially not when being the 'silly person in the
costume' and yes, if you are in costume, no matter how perfectly researched,
you are NOT being taken 100% seriously. Thus I don't do any of this anymore, if
I am to give an academic talk I do it in my normal (well, normal is relative
*G*) clothing, I would never ever again do it in costume. The academic world
here is arrogant, and hey, I am one of them, for better or for worse.
*laughs*

Nicole - who believes in Ivory Towers ;-)

=====
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http://www.stopthewar.org.uk/

Nicole Kipar M.A.
URL: http://www.kipar.org/
Email: nicole@kipar.org

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Subject: [h-cost] The Birth of Mary - layers?
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I'm looking at The Birth of Mary 
( http://gallery.euroweb.hu/html/m/master/life/birth_m.html ), and am 
trying to figure out the different layers that go into these outfits. 

I've been reading the archives and have come away with the understanding
(that is, I think I've swallowed Robin's theory raw :D ) that these
short-sleeved, V-necked gowns are the equivalent layer to the GFD from
earlier, and may be worn with pin-on sleeves as acceptable informal
clothing. This is certainly supported by the image of the woman at the
left with the yellow gown, with one coloured sleeve (assumably pinned
on) and just the chemise sleeve on her left arm.

But what about the woman to the right of her? Her short-sleeved gown 
looks to me to be an outer layer since she has a green layer 
underneath. But the sleeves are a different green from the skirts, which 
suggests that perhaps the layer beneath could also be short-sleeved and 
the sleeves just be pinned to the outer short-sleeved gown. Or the 
colour variation may mean nothing and all the green bits can be a single 
gown. But in that case the salmon short-sleeved gown is a surcote (or 
what are they called in this period?). If so, would yet another layer be 
worn over these in order to be more formal? The lining also makes me 
wonder if that makes it an overgarment, or if all the layers are lined 
(except the chemise, of course). However, she isn't wearing anything on 
her head, which suggests informality. (And of course the whole situation 
doesn't look very formal.)

The woman in green in the lower left corner has a long-sleeved gown as
her outer layer, and I would suppose that she is wearing one gown
between that layer and her chemise. Any thoughts on whether her ensemble 
is more formal than the short-sleeved gowns, or if these are just 
variatons of gowns with the same function?


Ingrid

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... TV/film companies wanting freebies, I just this minute got yet another
email from the BBC, wanting images/emblems/costumes/weapons just about anything
having to do with Kirke's Lambs and the Monmouth rebellion of 1685 we might
have reconstructed and/or access to, for yet another history programme.
...and guess what, for FREE!
The fact that our kit is worth thousands of pounds and our research many years
and thus is invaluable, that does not seem to come into the equation.

Guess what my answer is: no way. Here in the UK many of us are SO sick and
tired of freebies, you just wouldn't believe it. 

*siiiiiiigh* You know, I would have loved to help and used to do, because
essentially, I am not an unkind person, but at some stage one just can't cope
with this freebie-culture anymore.

Costume content? Well, 1685 uniforms, no? :-)

Oh, hang on, I do have a costume content, I read a fascinating article
yesterday in a Reader on Economic History, about stockings in late 16th & 17th
century England. Did you know Mary Queen of Scotts was wearing a pair of fine
white jersey stockings (jersey is pretty much equivalent with fine in the
period) next to her skin and blue worsted stockings with silver embroidery over
them.

Nicole

=====
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http://www.stopthewar.org.uk/

Nicole Kipar M.A.
URL: http://www.kipar.org/
Email: nicole@kipar.org

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From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" <drewscph@post12.tele.dk>
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Subject: [h-cost] found the renaissance dress i want to make.
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Hello.
Finally i have found the renaissance dress i want to make.
It is not Elizabethan, but close, Queen Anne style.
Gues what i am going to embroider next year!!!!
http://www.nmm.ac.uk/server.php?request=setTemplate:singlecontent&contentTyp
eA=conWebDoc&contentId=54&navId=005000002001

Yippeeeeee!
What a shame i wont be able to come to the exhibition at Greenwich, but it
opens may 1.st and i go on monday.
Blast.
Leif og Bjarne Drews
www.my-drewscostumes.dk

http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/


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From: Robin Netherton <robin@shell.nightowl.net>
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] The Birth of Mary - layers?
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On Thu, 3 Apr 2003, [iso-8859-1] Ingrid G. Storrø wrote:

> I'm looking at The Birth of Mary 
> ( http://gallery.euroweb.hu/html/m/master/life/birth_m.html ), and am 
> trying to figure out the different layers that go into these outfits. 

OK, I'll bite on this one. Fortunately I also have a hardcopy verion of
this picture in a museum art book from the Pinakothek, though it's not
that much more illuminating.

> I've been reading the archives and have come away with the
> understanding (that is, I think I've swallowed Robin's theory raw :D )
> that these short-sleeved, V-necked gowns are the equivalent layer to
> the GFD from earlier, and may be worn with pin-on sleeves as
> acceptable informal clothing. This is certainly supported by the image
> of the woman at the left with the yellow gown, with one coloured
> sleeve (assumably pinned on) and just the chemise sleeve on her left
> arm.
> 
> But what about the woman to the right of her? Her short-sleeved gown
> looks to me to be an outer layer since she has a green layer
> underneath. But the sleeves are a different green from the skirts,
> which suggests that perhaps the layer beneath could also be
> short-sleeved and the sleeves just be pinned to the outer
> short-sleeved gown. Or the colour variation may mean nothing and all
> the green bits can be a single gown. But in that case the salmon
> short-sleeved gown is a surcote (or what are they called in this
> period?). If so, would yet another layer be worn over these in order
> to be more formal? The lining also makes me wonder if that makes it an
> overgarment, or if all the layers are lined (except the chemise, of
> course). However, she isn't wearing anything on her head, which
> suggests informality. (And of course the whole situation doesn't look
> very formal.)

I agree that the salmon gown is an outerlayer, because of the fur lining
and the green dress underneath. The sleeves, though, look pretty clearly
to be pin-on to me. That would make this dress a hybrid. (That's in
contrast to the more typical renditions of short-sleeved gowns as
underdresses, with pin-on sleeves added for modesty when they're worn
without an overgown. I agree with your reading of the woman in the gold,
who has removed one of her pin-on sleeves for purposes of handling the
water.)

Some factors that may contribute to the anomalies:

1. The painting is German, not Flemish. German style varies in some
details from Flemish, in ways I haven't studied systematically, so I
wouldn't rule this out as a regional variation.

2. The woman's hair is not necessarily informal -- it is braided neatly. I
read this as saying she is a young unmarried woman, possibly a girl,
whereas the other midwives/attendants are veiled to indicate age and
marital status. Her gown may thus be more "youthful" in nature.

3. The V-neck on her gown (and probably that of the lady in gold) may not
actually be a fur collar, which is normally an overdress feature. I
believe they are white (silk?) scarves pulled around the neck and pinned
at the front. That's something I've seen in some Flemish portraits. That
would make more sense of the neck of the salmon dress, if you see the
scarf as being pinned a couple of inches down from the neckline of the
dress. That means the salmon triangle in the V is part of the dress. You
can see some of the lacing there, and in my print, I can see the line of
the front opening continue down the front of the dress, suggesting all the
salmon is one continuous surface with the scarf pinned over it. On my
print, I can also see parallel shadow lines along the length of the
scarves to indicate bunching/pleating/pulling taut. At the center fronts,
the sides of the scarves overlap at an angle -- on the gold lady, the
wearer's left side of the scarf crosses over the right at the point, and
on the salmon lady the right crosses over the left.
	By contrast, the woman on the other side of the gold lady clearly
has a white fur V collar that meets in a vertical line at the center
front. This is consistent with the long sleeves on her overdress, the hint
of fur lining peeking out at the cuff, and the white fur lining at the
turned-up hem (visible under the towel spread on her lap). She is wearing
a pale green underdress with a broad band of grey fur at the bottom. At
far right, another woman has a long-sleeved overdress with fur collar, fur
lining, and fur cuffs.

4. The painting is religious, showing the birth of the Virgin. The
midwives/attendants are thus likely represented as more wealthy, noble,
and exotic than would normally be found in a realistic scene. Certainly
the fabrics and furs are very rich. The young woman's dress, then, may
have been an artistically gussied-up version of a more prosaic outfit --
e.g. the artist could turn a standard rendition of a basic dress into an
overlayer by turning up the skirt to show a (rich) fur lining, and
creating an underlayer beneath.

That's my initial read. I'm open to alternatives.

--Robin


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Subject: Re: [h-cost] found the renaissance dress i want to make.
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Bjarne wrote:

>Finally i have found the renaissance dress i want to make.
>It is not Elizabethan, but close, Queen Anne style.
>Gues what i am going to embroider next year!!!!
>http://www.nmm.ac.uk/server.php?request=setTemplate:singlecontent&c>ontentTyp 
>eA=conWebDoc&contentId=54&navId=005000002001

To avoid confusion, Bjarne, "Queen Anne style" usually refers to the Anne who was Queen in her own right from 1702-14. Your dress belonged to James I's Queen (or James VI to the Scots), Anne of Denmark.
We will all look forward to seeing it!




Kate Bunting
Library, University of Derby


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From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" <drewscph@post12.tele.dk>
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Subject: [h-cost] Elizabeth exhibition at Greenwich
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Linn Skinner, sended this to the h-needlework list, and while i browsed
there, i found this picture of James VI's Queen Anne. What do you think her
dress is made of, is it taffeta or is it satin?
I think it is satin. And i wondered about those flower bands, they must be
embroidered, because the tabs round the bodice, is having angles of the
flowers.
http://www.nmm.ac.uk/uploads//jpg/BHC4251.jpg
Her bustline is having pink tabs i think under the flower bows, like the
wings must have the same.
This i want to make for my next costume projekt.
Bjarne



Leif og Bjarne Drews
www.my-drewscostumes.dk

http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/


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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Elizabeth exhibition at Greenwich
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        I am in way over my head, but have to give my two cents worth
here.  I agree that the fabric looks like satin.  However, I would say
that the pink band around the top of the bodice and the cuffs are fabric
covered with lace.  And the flowers sure look like ribbon flowers applied
to the gown, maybe with the jewel pin in the center of each.  

        Now, I will go hide for speaking out like I know something to
such knowledgeable people.

Lalah
Never give up, Never surrender
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        As an afterthought, I agree that the flower bands are probably
embroidered.  You will be busy for a while with this one, Bjarne.  And
who is the lucky lady who will wear this fantastic garb when it is done,
or is it for a museum?

Lalah
Never give up, Never surrender
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] found the renaissance dress i want to make.
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What a beautiful gown. I love the pink cuffs and blue collar hazily showing 
under the white lace collar and cuffs. Great color scheme.

And that hair! Move over Nancy Sinatra!
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Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2003 10:57:02 -0800
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Victorian "wedding" dresses?
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I just finished reading The Age of Innocence, and the main
character's wife has her wedding dress "made over" after
the ceremony so that it will be an evening gown (or at least dinner
gown, she's not very specific) for more uses in the future.

.heather.

On Wednesday, April 2, 2003, at 06:17 PM, Kendra Van Cleave wrote:

> I've been adding a number of costume images to my Real Regency & 
> Victorian
> Clothing directory, and as I do so I've been having a contemplation...
>
> What's with the number of so-called wedding gowns dating from the mid- 
> to
> late-19th century (1830's-1890's) that are cut as evening dresses?  
> Here are
> my questions:
>
> 1.  Were weddings ever held in the evening during this period?
> 2.  If not, was it considered proper to wear a low-necked, 
> short-sleeved
> dress during the day to your wedding?
>
> My hunch to both of those questions is no -- if so, then I'm assuming 
> that
> museum curators have assumed that because a dress is white, it must be 
> a
> wedding dress.  I do know that while white dresses were often used for
> wedding dresses in the 19th c., this wasn't always the case, and often 
> women
> wore what was considered a "best dress."
>
> Some examples of this phenomenon:
> http://www.bridallexington.com/museum/plate3.jpg
> http://www.mcny.org/Collections/costume/worth/costume13.htm
> http://www.bridallexington.com/museum/plate1.jpg (right-hand dress)
> http://makeashorterlink.com/?Z4FE32114
>
> Any thoughts or sources would be appreciated!
>
> - Kendra
>
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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Thu Apr  3 15:15:08 2003
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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
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Hi,

     This question came up on another list, and actually I wonder if the 
vintage people have a better idea of it.  I didn't have the vintage e-mail 
address handy, sorry.

     I'm wondering about laws, both US and international, regarding products 
made from endangered species.  I've heard that eagle feathers are illegal to 
sell.  What about other materials, such as ivory or baleen?

     We make repro costume, but frequently have opportunities to buy originals 
for study and to show during presentations.  Someone wrote that it's ok to sell 
antique stays that are boned with baleen, but not a piece of baleen, even if it 
was from an antique dress or old seamstress' supplies.

     Where can I find information on the current laws?  Have they changed 
recently?  I've seen some of these items for sale in antique shops and on E-bay 
within the past three years, which seems odd if it's illegal to sell them.

     Thanks!
     -Carol

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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Thu Apr  3 15:30:26 2003
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Endangered buying & selling
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I believe that you'd need to check with the Department of Fish and Game.
They are generally the ones who inspect places for violations. And in
terms of being illegal to sell eagle products, it's illegal to even have
them in your possession unless you are Native American/First Nations. A
good friend of mine was given an eagle feather by an older Indian woman
as a sign of appreciation. He made the mistake of wearing it to a
pow-wow/rendezvous and had it confiscated by officers of the DF&G. I
don't know if he was fined for having it or not, but even tho he has a
small amount of Native American in his background, it wasn't enough to
justify him owning the eagle feather. They have NO sense of humor about
stuff like that.


Karen

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Hi Carol~

The first place I would check would be your state's department of
wildlife. They can best advise you of the current laws regarding such
items, or can direct you elsewhere if need be.  This info may be online
in your state, so check there first. Each state has its own laws, so
it's really hard to give a blanket answer here. I believe the issue with
eagle feathers is not only that they are endangered, but they are the
national bird, so doubly taboo. Also check with the U.S. Customs
Department, they should be able to tell you a lot too. Again, look
online first.

Here in Virginia I've been told that possession of some common deer
products is illegal. I think there are some caveats to that, or else
every hunter in the state would have to turn in the trophy head over
their fireplace mantle. I know that I have seen a copy of the Va.
statute regarding this, (it was a number of years ago, sorry) and it was
hard to decipher the legalese but it seemed like my display antlers and
hides could be under suspicion if the wrong person walked up. I think
the deal is that if you had a license and killed it yourself, then it is
considered yours, but you couldn't give me parts off of it, and you most
certainly can't sell the meat or anything for profit.

Of course if you are Native American, most of the domestic rules don't
apply. I don't know about the international ones, but I tend to doubt
it.

I think a lot of what gets sold on Ebay and other places like that just
are a matter of enforcement. The items may be illegal or in a 'gray
area', but there just isn't the legal manpower to keep up with the
volume, and of course it's needed other places more urgently.


-----Original Message-----
From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com]
On Behalf Of aquazoo@patriot.net
Sent: Thursday, April 03, 2003 2:11 PM
To: Historical Costume
Subject: [h-cost] Endangered buying & selling

Hi,

     This question came up on another list, and actually I wonder if the

vintage people have a better idea of it.  I didn't have the vintage
e-mail 
address handy, sorry.

     I'm wondering about laws, both US and international, regarding
products 
made from endangered species.  I've heard that eagle feathers are
illegal to 
sell.  What about other materials, such as ivory or baleen?

     We make repro costume, but frequently have opportunities to buy
originals 
for study and to show during presentations.  Someone wrote that it's ok
to sell 
antique stays that are boned with baleen, but not a piece of baleen,
even if it 
was from an antique dress or old seamstress' supplies.

     Where can I find information on the current laws?  Have they
changed 
recently?  I've seen some of these items for sale in antique shops and
on E-bay 
within the past three years, which seems odd if it's illegal to sell
them.

     Thanks!
     -Carol




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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Thu Apr  3 17:32:37 2003
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Victorian "wedding" dresses?
Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2003 16:27:22 -0500
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Heather, I have a wedding gown of that period that was given to me with two
bodices, one obviously for evening.  The fabric is the same for both.  I
also have another gown in which it is possible to see that the neckline has
been altered, as in "Innocence".
 My daughter's eyelet wedding gown was found in an antique shop with the
bride's papers that gave name and date. As I was paying for it ,the owner
said,"Did you see the second day dress?" Well, no; she then showed me the
beautiful velvet suit in nearly new condition...and then what obviously has
to have been the gown for the 25th anniversary! She knew the family from
whom she acquired the 'set'. The size of the gown and suit were the same and
the other gown was believable for the length and projection of style change.
So of course I bought all three pieces, with the thought that if they had
made it together for 110 years, they surely deserved a chance to stay
together.
 A small local historical society in NH put out a little wedding book for
their valley. Another tradition of the time seems that the First Day was the
ceremony either at home or at the registry with only family present.  The
Second Day was for the public celebration. This was often an evening event.
I think it was Penny who mentioned fall as a popular time for weddings.  For
country folk, this would have been after harvest; for city types, the time
would fit the return to the city after the heat of summer was over...and the
usual time for "The Season".                                    Kathleen
Original Message -----
From: "Heather Meadows" <alice@wonderland.com>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Thursday, April 03, 2003 1:57 PM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Victorian "wedding" dresses?


> I just finished reading The Age of Innocence, and the main
> character's wife has her wedding dress "made over" after
> the ceremony so that it will be an evening gown (or at least dinner
> gown, she's not very specific) for more uses in the future.
>
> .heather.
>
> On Wednesday, April 2, 2003, at 06:17 PM, Kendra Van Cleave wrote:
>
> > I've been adding a number of costume images to my Real Regency &
> > Victorian
> > Clothing directory, and as I do so I've been having a contemplation...
> >
> > What's with the number of so-called wedding gowns dating from the mid-
> > to
> > late-19th century (1830's-1890's) that are cut as evening dresses?
> > Here are
> > my questions:
> >
> > 1.  Were weddings ever held in the evening during this period?
> > 2.  If not, was it considered proper to wear a low-necked,
> > short-sleeved
> > dress during the day to your wedding?
> >
> > My hunch to both of those questions is no -- if so, then I'm assuming
> > that
> > museum curators have assumed that because a dress is white, it must be
> > a
> > wedding dress.  I do know that while white dresses were often used for
> > wedding dresses in the 19th c., this wasn't always the case, and often
> > women
> > wore what was considered a "best dress."
> >
> > Some examples of this phenomenon:
> > http://www.bridallexington.com/museum/plate3.jpg
> > http://www.mcny.org/Collections/costume/worth/costume13.htm
> > http://www.bridallexington.com/museum/plate1.jpg (right-hand dress)
> > http://makeashorterlink.com/?Z4FE32114
> >
> > Any thoughts or sources would be appreciated!
> >
> > - Kendra
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > h-costume mailing list
> > h-costume@mail.indra.com
> > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
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> h-costume@mail.indra.com
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From: Jacobson Dawn <dme_maud@pacbell.net>
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Nicole wrote:

<<... TV/film companies wanting freebies, I just this
minute got yet 
another
email from the BBC, wanting
images/emblems/costumes/weapons just about 
anything
having to do with Kirke's Lambs and the Monmouth
rebellion of 1685 we 
might
have reconstructed and/or access to, for yet another
history programme.
...and guess what, for FREE!
The fact that our kit is worth thousands of pounds and
our research 
many years
and thus is invaluable, that does not seem to come
into the equation.

Guess what my answer is: no way. Here in the UK many
of us are SO sick 
and
tired of freebies, you just wouldn't believe it. 

*siiiiiiigh* You know, I would have loved to help and
used to do, 
because
essentially, I am not an unkind person, but at some
stage one just 
can't cope
with this freebie-culture anymore.>>

I think there might also be a difference in attitude
because of how reenacting is structured here in the
US.

Most historical reenactors in the US, especially those
involved in military reenacting, belong to non-profit
educational organizations, described under Section
501(c)3 of the US tax code. As a result, reenactors
can deduct as "charitable expenses" their
out-of-pocket expenses for costumes, gear, travel to
and from events, the items consumed at events (like
food and gun powder). The catch is, as these are
"educational organizations," we're sort of required to
be helpful to the public, and that usually includes
news crews and documentarians. It's the price you pay
to get the $$$$ tax deduction. This doesn't mean that
we have to oblige anyone and everyone: if doing a bit
of work for a commercial venture (whether it is
appearing as an extra, renting equipment, or appearing
as "local color" at an event), contractual
arrangements are usually made with the organization
and the members for payment, insurance coverage, etc.

Sometimes this "doing stuff for free" has some funny
results. About 20 years ago, the Renaissance Military
Society was asked by a Bay Area museum to make an
appearance in connection with the opening of a big
exhibition from the armory at Graz. They did, and were
relaxing outside the museum when a film crew from
Austrian TV showed up to cover the exhibition. They
couldn't get in, so the RMS obliged them by letting
them film the group. One of the things they filmed
were 3 of the members acting silly with a 3-handled
pitcher full of beer: the goal was to hang on to the
pitcher, drink the beer, and try not to spill it on
yourself, while the other two people were holding on
to it and trying to get it away. These three people
were waltzing and wrestling around and the film crew
caught the whole thing on tape. A few months later, it
appeared on Austrian TV as part of a piece on the Graz
exhibition, and was identified as the "Nurnburg Beer
Dance."

Dawn

=====
Dawn Jacobson
Vallejo, CA, USA

Learn the rules well, so you can break them properly.
--Dalai Lama
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Endangered buying & selling
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aquazoo@patriot.net wrote:

>      I'm wondering about laws, both US and international, regarding products 
> made from endangered species.  I've heard that eagle feathers are illegal to 
> sell.  What about other materials, such as ivory or baleen?
> 
>      We make repro costume, but frequently have opportunities to buy originals 
> for study and to show during presentations.  Someone wrote that it's ok to sell 
> antique stays that are boned with baleen, but not a piece of baleen, even if it 
> was from an antique dress or old seamstress' supplies.
> 
>      Where can I find information on the current laws? 

	Well Carol, you're in MD, so I can tell you sorta what MD 
has to say on such subjects (or at least what the run-around 
you'll get is). You talk to the woman whose name I've 
forgotten at Fish & Wildlife. she'll tell you whether you're 
allowed to own something or not. However, she's frankly not 
too swift since she will also tell you that bear  parts are 
federally protected and that it is illegal in all states to 
hunt/own any bear products and we know that's completely 
ridiculous. But she'll insist. And there isn't anyone else 
in the state that you can talk to because they will all send 
you to her as she is the one who knows everything.
	In point of fact, as far as owning stays that have the 
baleen in them, the rangers (who are the ones who patrol 
rendezvous' and maek the citations) don't really care as 
long as you don't have piles of the stuff and broadcasting 
about it.
	But this is only MD law, each state is different. I had to 
go through all of this when we were reasearching fur info 
for a camp hunting display.

	-Judy Mitchell

(who is annoyed at being too ethical/nervous to accept a 
gift of a small basket made of whale baleen from someone in 
Norway!)

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>         I am in way over my head, but have to give my two cents worth
> here.  I agree that the fabric looks like satin.  However, I would say
> that the pink band around the top of the bodice and the cuffs are fabric
> covered with lace.  And the flowers sure look like ribbon flowers applied
> to the gown, maybe with the jewel pin in the center of each.


He was talking about the little flowers on the fabric itself all over the
sleeves and bodice.

I agree embroidered or applied in some way looks most logical.

Bjarne do you have the V&A publication Historic Costume in Detail? Or is it
Historic Fashion in Detail.... either way it's jammed full of images from
around this era, before and after and in nearly every piece the surface
deoration is applied.

I adore this colour scheme by the way. And the style of dress..

michaela
http://recital.tripod.com/costume



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>I believe that you'd need to check with the Department of Fish and Game.

I've heard this too.  And the one about those folks having no sense of 
humor about the matter.  Possibilities include a fine, confiscation of the 
entire garment, imprisonment, or a combination of the above.

I checked with Fish and Game when I went looking for what stuffed birds 
were ok to put on my historical hats.  I'd heard a rumor that some things 
that were old enough were ok, like so called 'fossil ivory' is.  Their 
website has a place to ask their question Ranger questions.  I asked there, 
about the specific bird I wanted, and got a prompt reply (anything with a 
legal hunting season, like a pheasant, is assumed to have been taken 
legally and is OK).

>They are generally the ones who inspect places for violations. And in
>terms of being illegal to sell eagle products, it's illegal to even have
>them in your possession unless you are Native American/First Nations. A
>good friend of mine was given an eagle feather by an older Indian woman
>as a sign of appreciation. He made the mistake of wearing it to a
>pow-wow/rendezvous and had it confiscated by officers of the DF&G. I
>don't know if he was fined for having it or not, but even tho he has a
>small amount of Native American in his background, it wasn't enough to
>justify him owning the eagle feather. They have NO sense of humor about
>stuff like that.
>
>
>Karen
>
>________________________________________________________________
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Kayta

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How about the older woman standing by the bed, the one in the grey dress?
The dress seems to have folds or pleats in the center front, but it also
seems to be fitted. I have seen pictures like this before and I've never
figured out what's going on.

Gail Finke


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When I try that site I don't get any photos of costumes or portraits, just a
house and a painting of a ship.

Did you go to the ball yet, Bjarne? How was it?

Gail Finke


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From: Kimiko Small <kimiko@kimiko1.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Elizabeth exhibition at Greenwich
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At 12:35 PM 4/4/2003 +1200, you wrote:
>Bjarne do you have the V&A publication Historic Costume in Detail? Or is it
>Historic Fashion in Detail.... either way it's jammed full of images from
>around this era, before and after and in nearly every piece the surface
>deoration is applied.

It's called "Fashion in Detail: From the 17th and 18th Centuries" by Avril 
Hart and Susan North.

What a yummy book it is too. Not my normal time period of costumes, but 
it's details and close-ups of costumes are so worth getting the book for me.

I wish modern clothes could be so beautiful, especially with all the 
embroideries.  {sigh}

Kimiko



Kimiko Small
Costumer, Fiber Artist, Web Designer, Wife and Mother
kimiko@kimiko1.com; http://www.kimiko1.com

Graphic Intern at Costume Gallery
http://www.costumegallery.com

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> What a yummy book it is too. Not my normal time period of costumes, but
> it's details and close-ups of costumes are so worth getting the book for
me.

I know. Not my usual eras but gosh.. I bought it as soom as I saw it;) I
also have Bradfield's book with a similar name and often get the titles
confused;)

> I wish modern clothes could be so beautiful, especially with all the
> embroideries.  {sigh}

They do actually have a modern fashion book and world fashion book of the
same kind and they are also extremely fabulous. The world one I'm especially
fond of and would buy it ... probably put aside some money each week over
winter:) The images are equally compelling if of a diffrent kind of jaw
dropping:)

While I was a Te Papa for the LotR exhibit there was also a lovely 1930s
blouse made from piping. I took a pic if anyone is interested in it? I'm
just processing my domain reg and new site so fairly soon I'll have a place
to send people to look at these things:)

michaela
http://recital.tripod.com/costume this will still remain active though:)


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> website has a place to ask their question Ranger questions.  I asked
there,
> about the specific bird I wanted, and got a prompt reply (anything with a
> legal hunting season, like a pheasant, is assumed to have been taken
> legally and is OK).


usually you can assume that any introduced species is also legal. For
instance it is illegal to possess migratory song birds (cardinals, finches,
etc) but non-native pest species (like starlings in the US) are okay.  It
would be interesting to see a stuffed starling as part of a costume! Maybe
perched in a tall highly ornamented hat.  I suppose there is a feather
covered accessory that could be done all in black for *some* one's period of
choice.  :-)

Denise
landofoz@netins.net



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Date: Thu, 03 Apr 2003 23:56:19 -0500
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Seeking UK re-enactors
From: Marsha Hamilton <mjh@pearlandplume.com>
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
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>> ...most if not all UK acedemics I have spoken
>> to on the subject would rarely if ever do this for free and if they
>> did would generally have a motive (eg book)
 
> They wouldn't give an interview for free? I'm stunned. That's not the
> impression I get from any of the academics I know...
> But we all present papers for free, and typically contribute articles to
> books and journals at our own expense...
-----------------------------------
This appears to be a US/UK cultural difference.  I've worked 27 years in
academe in the US.  I'm on a contact list, used by radio, tv, and print
journalists to locate people to interview.  During an interview, it is crass
to mention one's publications unless related to the topic, so it's not an
opportunity to hawk books.  Our contact list includes scholars with
international reputations who receive fees for speaking engagements.
But interviews here are free.

A paid interview gives the appearance (here) of potentially tainting
information since the interviewee stands to gain financially from presenting
opinions the interviewer wants.

Another reason academic interviews in the US are free probably relates to
the tenure and promotion reward system.  Most institutions require evidence
of accomplishments in teaching, research/publication, and service (to one's
department, university, profession, subject, and the public.)  Giving
interviews is both "educating the public" and evidence that one has a
reputation sufficient to be desirable as a subject.

Each year at evaluation time, my colleagues and I include interviews in our
Faculty Annual Reports.  The more prestigious the outlet, the more "credit"
one gets.  The same applies to gratis research papers, organizing panels,
workshops, speeches for civic groups, etc.  It is considered service and is
an expected part of most academic jobs, free and usually performed on one's
own time. This must be a US/UK difference.

Marsha

Shameless plug:  Marsha J. Hamilton and Eleanor S. Block.  Projecting
Ethnicity and Race: An Annotated Bibliography of Studies on Imagery in
American Film.  Praeger, 2003.
    We mentioned costumes a few times  :-)

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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: Seeking UK re-enactors
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> if I am to give an academic talk I do it in my normal (well, normal is
relative *G*) clothing, I would never ever again do it in costume. The
academic world here is arrogant, and hey, I am one of them, for better or
for worse.
> *laughs*
> 
> Nicole - who believes in Ivory Towers ;-)
------------
The academic world everywhere is arrogant, I think.

After seeing your website picture in the leather bodice, I wonder what you
wear to work!  Maybe we should all commission Bjarne to make a beautiful new
uniform for academics.  Wouldn't it be wonderful to work in yards of ruched
silk or velvet trimmed robes?  Fur-trimmed sleeves dusting across the stacks
of books in the library, students staring at the folds of draped satin
distractedly during lectures?  I'd like to see THAT.

Marsha 

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Subject: [h-cost] Re: Endangered buying & selling
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Or you can build a replica.  For a state costume (Nebraska) for a beauty 
pageant I built the headdress to have a life-size replica of a sandhill 
crane (head and neck-what would be a bust sculpture for a human).  I used 
styrofoam, cardboard, and lots of rooster hackle feathers in the proper 
colors, each trimmed and glued on individually.

Also, if anyone needs natural animal products:

Moscow Hide and Fur  (Moscow, Idaho) www.moscowhideandfur.com
Just about anything that can be ranched or hunted legally in Idaho is 
available.  Have gotten buffalo horns, bear claws and teeth from them.  No 
affiliation, just satisfied customer.

Sandy

>Subject: Re: [h-cost] Endangered buying & selling
>
> > website has a place to ask their question Ranger questions.  I asked
>there,
> > about the specific bird I wanted, and got a prompt reply (anything with a
> > legal hunting season, like a pheasant, is assumed to have been taken
> > legally and is OK).
>
>usually you can assume that any introduced species is also legal. For
>instance it is illegal to possess migratory song birds (cardinals, finches,
>etc) but non-native pest species (like starlings in the US) are okay.  It
>would be interesting to see a stuffed starling as part of a costume! Maybe
>perched in a tall highly ornamented hat.  I suppose there is a feather
>covered accessory that could be done all in black for *some* one's period of
>choice.  :-)
>
>Denise
>landofoz@netins.net

"Those Who Fail To Learn History
Are Doomed To Repeat It;
Those Who Fail To Learn History Correctly--
Why They Are Simply Doomed."

Achemdro'hm
"The Illusion of Historical Fact"
-- C.Y. 4971

Andromeda


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Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2003 08:10:44 +0100 (BST)
From: =?iso-8859-1?q?N=20Kipar?= <nicolas_fouquet@yahoo.com>
Subject: 'academic silks & laces' Re: [h-cost] Re: Seeking UK re-enactors
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
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 --- Marsha Hamilton <mjh@pearlandplume.com> wrote: > 

> The academic world everywhere is arrogant, I think.

yep, but there are country differences, I think Germany is even more arrogant
than UK. :-)

> After seeing your website picture in the leather bodice, I wonder what you
> wear to work! 

*laughs!* No, not anything quite like that... but big frilly shirts, tight
waistcoats, embroideries, flowy surcoats, glittery bits and pearls on velets,
Indian embroidered jackets and coats and huge sparkly shawls, etc etc...

 Maybe we should all commission Bjarne to make a beautiful new
> uniform for academics.  Wouldn't it be wonderful to work in yards of ruched
> silk or velvet trimmed robes?  Fur-trimmed sleeves dusting across the stacks
> of books in the library, students staring at the folds of draped satin
> distractedly during lectures?  I'd like to see THAT.

YES!!! How wonderful Marsha, let's all petition to bring back the academic
gown, preferrably in heavy black silks or velvets with jewel colour silk
linings, perhaps something like they wear in Hogwarth? Hmmm.... WANT!

Nicole

=====
"Brains, not Bombs"
http://www.stopthewar.org.uk/

Nicole Kipar M.A.
URL: http://www.kipar.org/
Email: nicole@kipar.org

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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Victorian "wedding" dresses?
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Thanks to everyone for your thoughts on my Victorian wedding dresses
question.  I did know about making second bodices or reworking dresses for
wear after the wedding, but I didn't think about it as I was thinking of
this question!  That may be the answer for many of these dresses.

- Kendra

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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Seeking UK re-enactors
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>This appears to be a US/UK cultural difference.  I've worked 27 years in
academe in the US.  I'm on a contact list, used by radio, tv, and print
journalists to locate people to interview.  During an interview, it is crass
to mention one's publications unless related to the topic, so it's not an
opportunity to hawk books.

I think you misunderstood slightly, the reason for the interview is often
specifically on the book subject. Generally though a fairly narrow range of
subject interest tends toi mean all an acedemics books are reasonably
relevent to the subject, eg if you write on costume & are talking about
costume it is on the subject.

I think the main difference UK/US is the volume per person we get here now
and the disregard one is held in, with reasonable respect we might not have
got so jaded :)



I differ from Nicole about doing talks in costume. But this may be to a
different audience, if the costume content is relevent both my husband and I
would wear costume, the audience would range generally from interested
public, school to undergrad. We find it a great ice breaker, and tends to
invite a lot more audience participation. Both of us prefer interactive
talks rather than talking at people, as we think that it is often important
that listeners learn what they want to know rather than what we think they
ought to know. I don't like taking at people :) Obviously within this there
are learning outcomes in a formal situations and there is a balance between
where you are going and where the audience wants to go.

I'm not sure I've ever got the impression people see me as a person in a
silly costume, ever teenagers, they might giggle a bit at the
unfashionablyness of it all, but I like to use the humor to get them to
think of the difference, perhaps restrictions on their lives were they
wearing such clothes. We also encorage people to try out clothes and objects
and there are always more people that clothes !! But we do get paid for
this. For Gareth it is a good percentage of his living. As I said before
those paying really do value your input far more and you personally get a
lot more back from the experiance. (we do do some freebies for museums and
our own kids schools)

When we give talks etc, we like to bring to life the subject and take people
to places they have not been, I love doing talks and seeing people really
interested is seeing things in a new light. I hope they have questions they
want to find answers for at the end, to me it is about starting a train of
thought and no about providing definative answers because there rarely are
any.

I suppose this differs so much from pulp media archaeology that even paid
I'd not be very interested in the format they tend to present, where the
public actually believe the archaeologists are some kind of mega being who
KNOWS exactly what things are, this to me is very dangerous education.
Everyone can have an opinion and shopuld be encoraged to present it and
think around it.

Off my soap box now !!!

Mel

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Subject: [h-cost] garment conversions
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I recently picked up a 1971 issue of the Bulletin of the Costume Institute
(Met Museum) on ebay, and there's a fascinating article on dress
conversions.

Apparently a number of dresses in the Met's collection, including the
1690-95 mantua that's in _In Style: Celebrating 50 Years of the Costume
Institute_ and this 1780s robe a l'anglaise
(http://www.metmuseum.org/collections/view1.asp?dep=8&full=0&item=CI+66%2E39
a%2Cb) were remade at various points in their life, and the museum decided
to reconvert them back to as "original" a state as they could.

The 1780s robe a l'anglaise, for example, was actually originally a 1760
robe a la francaise, later remade around 1785ish, and then again around
1900.  They found some really interesting things when they unpicked the
dress -- for example, when they took apart the c. 1900 bodice, they found a
pleat at the bodice side front seams that covered the original (1760s)
armhole.

Fascinating reading!

- Kendra


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From: =?iso-8859-1?q?N=20Kipar?= <nicolas_fouquet@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Seeking UK re-enactors
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
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 --- Melanie Wilson <MelanieWilson@dragonflight.co.uk> wrote: > 
> I think the main difference UK/US is the volume per person we get here now
> and the disregard one is held in, with reasonable respect we might not have
> got so jaded :)
> 
Frankly, if I ever get an acceptable request for an interview, I would do it
for free BUT teh difference is, a equest for an interview because of my
academic writing OR a request for goodness-knows-what because of being a
re-enactor. Two completely different things AND one is treated completely
differently.
> 
> I differ from Nicole about doing talks in costume. But this may be to a
> different audience, if the costume content is relevent both my husband and I
> would wear costume, the audience would range generally from interested
> public, school to undergrad.

Ahhh, Mel, no differing here, because I fully agree regarding he audience. I
would do the same for schools etc. perhaps even still for generally interested
public, but never ever even in my wildest dreams to academics. I have already
heard (and that from my chair! Thankfully not from my second supervisor) 'oh,
how quaint, she is doing something on costume' admittedly Professor Vincent is
a bit of a twat occasionally, but you should have seen my supervisor, she
jumped down her colleague's throat and told him off for disregarding the
subject. *G*

 We find it a great ice breaker, and tends to
> invite a lot more audience participation. Both of us prefer interactive
> talks rather than talking at people, as we think that it is often important
> that listeners learn what they want to know rather than what we think they
> ought to know. I don't like taking at people :) 

I do actually, I prefer to talk at than to talk with, unless it is the Q & A
session at the end of he talk.

Obviously within this there
> are learning outcomes in a formal situations and there is a balance between
> where you are going and where the audience wants to go.

Yep, and nowadays I prefer the formal situations. I love going to conferences,
and that is my favourite set-up, both in the audience and in the front.

> When we give talks etc, we like to bring to life the subject and take people
> to places they have not been, I love doing talks and seeing people really
> interested is seeing things in a new light. I hope they have questions they
> want to find answers for at the end, to me it is about starting a train of
> thought and no about providing definative answers because there rarely are
> any.

True, but it does not depend at all on being in a costume or not! It depends on
how one talks, and trust me, I can get interest going even if I ever was to
wear a 'business suit'. ;-) What does the head of the history department call
my presentation syle? "Enthusiastic, lively, colourful" *LOL* now is that a
good thing or was he politely trying to be rude? ;-)

> Off my soap box now !!!

Oi! Leave me some space on it! Come on, move a tad to the side, I am sure we
can both fit onto it. :-)

Nicole
P.S. More costume content: 70% of all patents given to cloth makers for
innovations in the period 1665 - 1700 were for treatment of cloth/atterns/new
types of cloth fibre mixes, etc. Now does that eman I can find samples in the
patent office? apparently yes.... WHEEEHEE!

=====
"Brains, not Bombs"
http://www.stopthewar.org.uk/

Nicole Kipar M.A.
URL: http://www.kipar.org/
Email: nicole@kipar.org

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From: "Melanie Wilson" <MelanieWilson@dragonflight.co.uk>
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Subject: [h-cost] Talking in costume
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>Two completely different things AND one is treated completely
differently.

Agreed

>Ahhh, Mel, no differing here, because I fully agree regarding he audience.
I
would do the same for schools etc. perhaps even still for generally
interested
public, but never ever even in my wildest dreams to academics.

I can understand that to some extent but I feel the aucdemics are a fault
here not the costumed person. We had one so called acedemic have a go about
a brooch being 100 years out of date when we were giving a free show at a
museum. (not one of my brooches incidentially) but the person he had a go at
provided kit and time out of their own funds I think if he was so great he
should be there giving instead of taking !

(I do find a lot of acedemic situations highly self serving)

>'oh, how quaint, she is doing something on costume'

Well I don't think you should be put off by one person, I wonder how many
thought great but never thought to say so ?

>I do actually, I prefer to talk at than to talk with, unless it is the Q &
A
session at the end of he talk.

Styles differ and there isn't one right or wrong :) It is just my prefered
style

>True, but it does not depend at all on being in a costume or not!

Not completly, no I didn't mean to suggest it does, other subjects I talk on
are totally inappropriate in costme (er ....horse genetics for
instance(horse suit ? naw!))

But where the subject is costume related I find it provides additional
interest and a potentially faster response, especially with kids and the
general public

Mel
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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] The Birth of Mary - layers?
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On Thu, 3 Apr 2003, Robin Netherton wrote: 
> On Thu, 3 Apr 2003, [iso-8859-1] Ingrid G. Storrø wrote:
> 
> > I'm looking at The Birth of Mary 
> > ( http://gallery.euroweb.hu/html/m/master/life/birth_m.html ), and am 
> > trying to figure out the different layers that go into these outfits. 
> 
> OK, I'll bite on this one.

Yay! :D

> I agree that the salmon gown is an outerlayer, because of the fur lining
> and the green dress underneath. 

It's a fur lining? In the online image I think it looks like it drapes
like the outer layer, which I'd assumed was wool. The texture doesn't
look like fur to me either, unless it's an extremely short-haired, sleek 
kind. Is there some convention for painting fur in 
this period that I should bear in mind when looking at pictures form
this region/period?

> Some factors that may contribute to the anomalies:
> 
> 1. The painting is German, not Flemish. German style varies in some
> details from Flemish, in ways I haven't studied systematically, so I
> wouldn't rule this out as a regional variation.
> 
> 2. The woman's hair is not necessarily informal -- it is braided neatly. I
> read this as saying she is a young unmarried woman, possibly a girl,
> whereas the other midwives/attendants are veiled to indicate age and
> marital status. Her gown may thus be more "youthful" in nature.

True, regional variations may definitely be an issue, and youth as well. 
Martin Schongauer's The Fifth Wise Virgin ( 
http://gallery.euroweb.hu/html/s/schongau/graphics/wise5.html ) also has 
a similiar outfit sith short-sleeved outer layer and pin-on sleeves 
(although with a waist seam and pleated skirt), but well... She's a 
"wise virgin"; I'm concerned that this makes the depiction of her 
costume somewhat less than reliable as a representative source. :)
 
> 3. The V-neck on her gown (and probably that of the lady in gold) may not
> actually be a fur collar, which is normally an overdress feature. I
> believe they are white (silk?) scarves pulled around the neck and pinned
> at the front. That's something I've seen in some Flemish portraits. That
> would make more sense of the neck of the salmon dress, if you see the
> scarf as being pinned a couple of inches down from the neckline of the
> dress. That means the salmon triangle in the V is part of the dress.

Yes, I agree with this as well. (But then I don't seem to be able to 
distiguish fur from wool here, so that may mean nothing. ;) )

> 	By contrast, the woman on the other side of the gold lady clearly
> has a white fur V collar that meets in a vertical line at the center
> front. This is consistent with the long sleeves on her overdress, the hint
> of fur lining peeking out at the cuff, and the white fur lining at the
> turned-up hem (visible under the towel spread on her lap). She is wearing
> a pale green underdress with a broad band of grey fur at the bottom.

Again, I hadn't identified the broad band on the underdress as fur; it 
looks green to me. I'm definitely with you on the white fur though. The 
collar, is it a separate piece, or an integral part of the overgown? Iis 
the entire sleeve lined since the fur is poking out, or is it just a 
decorative collar?

> 4. The painting is religious, showing the birth of the Virgin. The
> midwives/attendants are thus likely represented as more wealthy, noble,
> and exotic than would normally be found in a realistic scene. Certainly
> the fabrics and furs are very rich. The young woman's dress, then, may
> have been an artistically gussied-up version of a more prosaic outfit --
> e.g. the artist could turn a standard rendition of a basic dress into an
> overlayer by turning up the skirt to show a (rich) fur lining, and
> creating an underlayer beneath.

True, that's definitely possible. Do you think that's the case with the 
Scongauer pic as well? 

If anyone has more (German) pictures of this style with the 
short-sleeved overgown I'd love to know, since enough of them might 
establish whether we're seeing regional variations or artistic license 
for religious purposes. :)

Ingrid

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Greetings.

I was wondering if anyone knows if British DVDs are compatable with US
DVD players??

There's a DVD I'd like to get for my husband, but it's only available
from the BBC. (I've got a friend stationed at Lakenheath who's willing
to buy it and mail here for me).

Thanks.
kate

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>I was wondering if anyone knows if British DVDs are compatable with US
DVD players??

Should be no problem all should be compatible that is supposed to be the
point of them :)

Mel
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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: The Duchess <duchess@bustles-and-bows.co.uk>
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At 08:19 04/04/2003 -0500, you wrote:
>I was wondering if anyone knows if British DVDs are compatable with US
>DVD players??

No, the British DVD's are in PAL format and in America you use NTSC. If you 
try to play them you will get a black and white picture that will keep 
breaking up. There are places in the USA that will take your DVD and 
convert it, but please don't ask me how much they charge as I don't have a 
clue.

For anyone interested most European TV's and DVD players will handle 
American DVD's.

Lissa

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	Fri, 04 Apr 2003 14:31:48 BST
Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2003 14:31:48 +0100 (BST)
From: =?iso-8859-1?q?N=20Kipar?= <nicolas_fouquet@yahoo.com>
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 --- ailith <ailith@neo.rr.com> wrote: > Greetings.
> 
> I was wondering if anyone knows if British DVDs are compatable with US
> DVD players??

I'm answering on-list because it might be of interest:

The best way to go is make sure that you buy a Region 0 DVD. Most DVD players
nowadays play the region 0 ones, which are compatible with both the US and the
Europe system. Ours downstairs does, and that's the cheapish one, bought last
Christmas.

There are also DVD players, are they called Apex 1500 or so? I read that on the
Robin of Sherwood list, I believe, which pays all regions.

> There's a DVD I'd like to get for my husband, but it's only available
> from the BBC. (I've got a friend stationed at Lakenheath who's willing
> to buy it and mail here for me).

Lakenheath? Lucky one! I would really love to see the excavation of the
Anglo-Saxon horse man, or at least where he was buried, but alas, the area is
an occupation one and thus one can't see it. *sigh*
I LOVE the horse-man from Lakenheath.

Nicole

=====
"Brains, not Bombs"
http://www.stopthewar.org.uk/

Nicole Kipar M.A.
URL: http://www.kipar.org/
Email: nicole@kipar.org

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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Fri Apr  4 09:33:01 2003
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 --- Melanie Wilson <MelanieWilson@dragonflight.co.uk> wrote: > >I was
wondering if anyone knows if British DVDs are compatable with US
> DVD players??
> 
> Should be no problem all should be compatible that is supposed to be the
> point of them :)

No it isn't, sorry. There are different regions, region 2 is here and region 1
is US. The last couple years most DVD's are region 0.

Nicole

=====
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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Fri Apr  4 09:42:27 2003
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>No it isn't, sorry. There are different regions, region 2 is here and
region 1
is US. The last couple years most DVD's are region 0.


Odd mine works everywhere maybe that is because it is a computer one. I buiy
US DVDs & tapes with no problems

Mel
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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Fri Apr  4 09:50:04 2003
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Ah got it most UK players are multi regional & most US arn't so we can play
anything & the US can't How odd why don't they make them all the same it is
very dumb !

That is a shame for you really If it helps there is a transfer place near me
that can reformat videos & maybe DVDs to other formats ?

Mel
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At 14:31 04/04/2003 +0100, you wrote:
>The best way to go is make sure that you buy a Region 0 DVD. Most DVD players
>nowadays play the region 0 ones, which are compatible with both the US and the
>Europe system. Ours downstairs does, and that's the cheapish one, bought last
>Christmas.

That's true in Europe but not in the USA. European PAL runs at 25 frames 
per second (power frequency 50Hz), US TV's run at 29.97 fps (power 
frequency 60Hz) and if you try and get them to run at 25fps they don't like 
it and they keep loosing frame lock. On the other hand European TV's on the 
whole will handle frame rates from 24 to 30 fps, that's because the sets 
have to be multi-system to handle all the different formats in Europe 
(there are 3 different versions of PAL for instance), whereas the USA has 
the same all over.

I hope that the above is understandable as I've tried to keep it simple.

Lissa (who's an electronics engineer and dabbles in homemade DVD's)

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Date: Fri, 04 Apr 2003 15:21:24 +0100
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: The Duchess <duchess@bustles-and-bows.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Off Topic
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At 14:50 04/04/2003 +0100, you wrote:
>Ah got it most UK players are multi regional & most US arn't so we can play
>anything & the US can't How odd why don't they make them all the same it is
>very dumb !

Errr! No! Lots of players available in Europe are multiregion but not all 
of them. Some American ones are multi-region as well but not many, mostly 
the Japanese and far eastern makes that are sold in the USA.

However, the film companies are going bananas as it's undermining their 
control of the international markets. They don't like to release a film 
worldwide so they do so many months apart and so the DVD's and VHS tapes 
are also released in each region in step with the film releases. As a 
result a DVD is available in the USA some 6 months ahead of Europe. Some 
enterprising engineers in Europe found ways round the region limitations 
and started selling modification kits to turn a DVD player into a 
multiregion one. In the end the many manufacturers jumped on the band wagon 
and started selling multi-region machines.

Lissa 

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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Fri Apr  4 10:43:49 2003
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Date: Fri, 04 Apr 2003 08:48:28 -0600
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Sheryl Nance-Durst <sherylnd@kc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: bjarne's new project
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Gail,
The portraits are (suppoosed to be) in between the house & the ship.
Here's a direct link to the large version of the portrait:
http://www.nmm.ac.uk/uploads//jpg/BHC4251.jpg

Sheryl Nance-Durst


At 08:30 PM 4/3/03 -0500, you wrote:

>When I try that site I don't get any photos of costumes or portraits, just a
>house and a painting of a ship.
>
>Gail Finke
>


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>Errr! No! Lots of players available in Europe are multiregion but not all
of them.

That is why I used the word most :)

Obviously all the ones I've ever got my hands on, but that goes for the
Videos too

>However, the film companies are going bananas as it's undermining their
control of the international markets.

Ah legalized thievery !

Mel

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      A friend in England has a DVD player that will play US DVDs. 
Unfortunately, his television (which is less than two years old) only 
plays the US DVDs in black & white.  Apparently a newer TV will play 
them in color.

      So, does anyone have any favorite black & white movies to 
recommend?  Particularly those with good costume content?  :-)

      -Carol

>Some enterprising engineers in Europe found ways round the region 
>limitations and started selling modification kits to turn a DVD 
>player into a multiregion one. In the end the many manufacturers 
>jumped on the band wagon and started selling multi-region machines.
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From: "Signora Apollonia Margherita degli Albizzi" <apollonia@bellsouth.net>
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Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2003 10:23:09 -0500
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Can you find a copy here?

http://www.bbcamerica.com/shop/shop.jsp

Apollonia

Signora Apollonia Margherita degli Albizzi
Kingdom of Atlantia
www.livejournal.com/users/apollonia

**La vita senz'onore e un viver morto.** 

-----Original Message-----
From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com]On
Behalf Of ailith
Sent: Friday, April 04, 2003 8:19 AM
To: Historical Costume
Subject: [h-cost] Off Topic


Greetings.

I was wondering if anyone knows if British DVDs are compatable with US
DVD players??

There's a DVD I'd like to get for my husband, but it's only available
from the BBC. (I've got a friend stationed at Lakenheath who's willing
to buy it and mail here for me).

Thanks.
kate

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On Fri, 04 Apr 2003 14:30:51 +0100 The Duchess
<duchess@bustles-and-bows.co.uk> writes:
> At 08:19 04/04/2003 -0500, you wrote:
> >I was wondering if anyone knows if British DVDs are compatable with US
DVD players??
> 
> No, the British DVD's are in PAL format and in America you use NTSC. If
you 
> try to play them you will get a black and white picture that will keep 
> breaking up. There are places in the USA that will take your DVD and 
> convert it, but please don't ask me how much they charge as I don't
have a clue.
> 
> For anyone interested most European TV's and DVD players will handle  
> American DVD's.
> 
> Lissa

        Yes, the same goes for video cassettes.  British ones can't be
played over here, but US ones can be played over there.  Don't ask me why
they can't get it together.  Guess it's the manufacturers here that can't
get together with them to make everything compatible.  (I have a friend
that wants to move to the states from England, and he'll have to buy all
his videos again if he wants them, or bring all his equipment with him,
one or the other.)

Astrid
Never argue with a dragon, for thou art crunchy and go well with Brie.
    http://www.geocities.com/astridofthehorde
     ICQ #           67785514
     MSN            btana_qul_mupwi
     Yahoo          lady_btana

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> Can you find a copy here?
>
> http://www.bbcamerica.com/shop/shop.jsp
>
Unfortunately, no. My sweetie *loves* Doctor Who; the DVD I was hoping
to get for him for his birthday is a commemorative of the 40th
anniversary of the Doctor.

Darn it anyway!

And a friend of mine was all excited because the BBC also has DVDs of
Captain Scarlet, one of the marionette programs by Gerry Anderson.
She's going to be so disappointed.

Thank you all for the information, though. I do appreciate it.
kate

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Date: Fri, 04 Apr 2003 09:42:58 -0700
From: sylvia <sylvia@ntw.net>
To: H-costume <h-costume@net.indra.com>, dyerslist <dyerslist@list.emich.edu>,
   Costumers manifesto <TheCostumersManifesto@yahoogroups.com>
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In view of recent off-topic discussion and controversy, just thought I'd
post this, as it is pretty funny and some of it sounds very familiar.
 

 


Question: How many E Mail List Subscribers does it take to change a light
bulb? 

Answer: 1,001 

1 to change the light bulb and to post to the mail list that the light
bulb has been changed.

14 to share similar experiences of changing light bulbs and how the light
bulb could have been changed differently.

7 to caution about the dangers of changing light bulbs.

27 to point out spelling/grammar errors in posts about changing light bulbs.

53 to flame the spell checkers

106 to write to the list administrator complaining about the light bulb
discussion and its inappropriateness to this mail list.

41 to correct spelling in the spelling/grammar flames.

99 to post that this list is not about light bulbs and to please take this
email exchange to private email

113 to demand that cross posting to other mail lists about changing light
bulbs be stopped. 

101 to defend the posting to this list saying that we all use light bulbs
and therefore the posts **are** relevant to this mail list.

156 to debate which method of changing light bulbs is superior, where to buy
the best light bulbs, what brand of light bulbs work best for this
technique, and what brands are faulty.

27 to post URLs where one can see examples of different light bulbs

14 to post that the URLs were posted incorrectly, and to post corrected
URLs. 

3 to post about links they found from the URLs that are relevant to this
list which makes light bulbs relevant to this list.

33 to concatenate all posts to date, then quote them including all headers
and footers, and then add "Me Too."

12 to post to the list that they are unsubscribing because they cannot
handle the light bulb controversy.

19 to quote the "Me Too's" to say, "Me Three."

4 to suggest that posters request the light bulb FAQ.

1 to propose a new "Lite Bulb Changing" Mail List.

47 to say this is just what the Mail List was meant for

123 votes for the new Mail List`



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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Fri Apr  4 13:21:00 2003
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Off Topic
From: Agnes Gawne <gawne@mac.com>
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
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for the US members of the list --

My husband recently purchased a new DVD player at our local GOOD video store
(Scarecrow Video in Seattle).  It plays all regions and converts PAL to NTSC
on the fly so we now can watch any DVD from anywhere.

I can't remember the brand name but if anyone hasn't purchased a DVD player
yet or needs a new one you might consider looking into that option so you
don't have any problem in the future.


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You can, however, play both regions on most computers, if you
have a DVD drive in your computer.


On Friday, April 4, 2003, at 05:33 AM, N Kipar wrote:

>  --- Melanie Wilson <MelanieWilson@dragonflight.co.uk> wrote: > >I was
> wondering if anyone knows if British DVDs are compatable with US
>> DVD players??
>>
>> Should be no problem all should be compatible that is supposed to be 
>> the
>> point of them :)
>
> No it isn't, sorry. There are different regions, region 2 is here and 
> region 1
> is US. The last couple years most DVD's are region 0.
>
> Nicole
>
> =====
> "Brains, not Bombs"
> http://www.stopthewar.org.uk/
>
> Nicole Kipar M.A.
> URL: http://www.kipar.org/
> Email: nicole@kipar.org
>
> __________________________________________________
> Yahoo! Plus
> For a better Internet experience
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> _______________________________________________
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        That is too true to be funny.  It is a keeper

Lalah
Never give up, Never surrender
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>You can, however, play both regions on most computers, if you
have a DVD drive in your computer.




That is why I have had no problems, you can hook a computer up to a TV too
(at least here you can !!)

Mel

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it in error, please delete it from your system, do not use or disclose
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Company, unless specifically stated.



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From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" <drewscph@post12.tele.dk>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
References: <BAB24A75.7E14%gailscott@eos.net>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: bjarne's new project
Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2003 21:04:46 +0200
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Dear Gail
I hope you got the picture now, someone sended the URL for the big picture.
I am leaving for England monday morning, and i will be at the Bath Ball next
saturday. I have lots of memory cards for my digital camera, so i promise,
the week before easter i shall upload pictures from the ball.
I have everything ready for the ball, and i was allowed to bring the
wardrobe bag with me into the airplane.

Bjarne

Leif og Bjarne Drews
www.my-drewscostumes.dk

http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gail & Scott Finke" <gailscott@eos.net>
To: <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Friday, April 04, 2003 3:30 AM
Subject: [h-cost] Re: bjarne's new project


>
> When I try that site I don't get any photos of costumes or portraits, just
a
> house and a painting of a ship.
>
> Did you go to the ball yet, Bjarne? How was it?
>
> Gail Finke
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Fri Apr  4 15:23:26 2003
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From: Jacobson Dawn <dme_maud@pacbell.net>
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Subject: [h-cost] Re: Re: Seeking UK re-enactors
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Marsha wrote:

<<Wouldn't it be wonderful to work in yards of 
ruched
silk or velvet trimmed robes?  Fur-trimmed sleeves
dusting across the 
stacks
of books in the library, students staring at the folds
of draped satin
distractedly during lectures?  I'd like to see THAT.>>

Considering that I spend much of my time crawling
around under desks (our network connections are all in
the floor of my classroom), running around the campus,
and moving computers, I think I had better stick to
wearing jeans, khakis, and tennis shoes to school. ;-)

Dawn
(toiling in the ditches of academia, with 1 set of
papers left to grade)
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Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2003 20:11:18 +0100
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Jean Waddie <anne@montgomerie.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: 'academic silks & laces' Re: [h-cost] Re: Seeking UK re-enactors
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>
>YES!!! How wonderful Marsha, let's all petition to bring back the academic
>gown, preferrably in heavy black silks or velvets with jewel colour silk
>linings, perhaps something like they wear in Hogwarth? Hmmm.... WANT!
>
>Nicole

Hogwarth - Harry Potter as designed by Hogarth?  I can see Alan Rickman 
now...

-- 
Jean Waddie
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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Fri Apr  4 16:28:59 2003
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Subject: Re: 'academic silks & laces' Re: [h-cost] Re: Seeking UK re-enactors
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Well...my academic robes are hot and heavy, and that's before you add 
all the velvet bits.  Since I live in the south, I REALLY don't want to 
have to teach in them year-round!!

Jessamyn/Grace

On Friday, April 4, 2003, at 02:11 PM, Jean Waddie wrote:

>>
>> YES!!! How wonderful Marsha, let's all petition to bring back the 
>> academic
>> gown, preferrably in heavy black silks or velvets with jewel colour 
>> silk
>> linings, perhaps something like they wear in Hogwarth? Hmmm.... WANT!
>>
>> Nicole
>
> Hogwarth - Harry Potter as designed by Hogarth?  I can see Alan 
> Rickman now...
>
> -- 
> Jean Waddie
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
>

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Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2003 10:30:19 -0800
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Heather Rose Jones <hrjones@socrates.berkeley.edu>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Endangered buying & selling
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At 10:16 PM -0600 4/3/03, Land of Oz wrote:
>  > website has a place to ask their question Ranger questions.  I asked
>there,
>>  about the specific bird I wanted, and got a prompt reply (anything with a
>>  legal hunting season, like a pheasant, is assumed to have been taken
>>  legally and is OK).
>
>
>usually you can assume that any introduced species is also legal. For
>instance it is illegal to possess migratory song birds (cardinals, finches,
>etc) but non-native pest species (like starlings in the US) are okay.  It
>would be interesting to see a stuffed starling as part of a costume! Maybe
>perched in a tall highly ornamented hat.  I suppose there is a feather
>covered accessory that could be done all in black for *some* one's period of
>choice.  :-)

Starlings have a more ornamental plumage than you might think -- 
iridescent purple and green highlights.

Heather
-- 
*****
Heather Rose Jones
hrjones@socrates.berkeley.edu
*****
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Endangered buying & selling
Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2003 17:40:16 -0500
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A couple of years ago I ordered from my feather supplier an extra full boa
for my Merlin costume.  The piece that came was stunning! I wondered at the
time if it might be 'starling' for these reasons...black with lots of green
and purple lights. It seemed at the time that it would have taken a LOT of
rooster plumage of those colors.
Kathleen                                                                    
                                                                            
                                                                            
                                                                            
                           ---- Original Message -----
From: "Heather Rose Jones" <hrjones@socrates.berkeley.edu>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Friday, April 04, 2003 1:30 PM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Endangered buying & selling


> At 10:16 PM -0600 4/3/03, Land of Oz wrote:
> >  > website has a place to ask their question Ranger questions.  I asked
> >there,
> >>  about the specific bird I wanted, and got a prompt reply (anything
with a
> >>  legal hunting season, like a pheasant, is assumed to have been taken
> >>  legally and is OK).
> >
> >
> >usually you can assume that any introduced species is also legal. For
> >instance it is illegal to possess migratory song birds (cardinals,
finches,
> >etc) but non-native pest species (like starlings in the US) are okay.  It
> >would be interesting to see a stuffed starling as part of a costume!
Maybe
> >perched in a tall highly ornamented hat.  I suppose there is a feather
> >covered accessory that could be done all in black for *some* one's period
of
> >choice.  :-)
>
> Starlings have a more ornamental plumage than you might think --
> iridescent purple and green highlights.
>
> Heather
> --
> *****
> Heather Rose Jones
> hrjones@socrates.berkeley.edu
> *****
> _______________________________________________
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Hello everyone!

I am coming back to this list after a long absence and it is great to join
you all again!

And I thought of a fun question for everyone to spark some discussion:

If you were to dream up the perfect fabric & accessories store, what would
it have?

For me, I would want great textured fabrics, all kinds of silk,  lovely
striped fabrics for a Victorian day dress, corset supplies (so I wouldn't
have to mail order), hoop skirts, fashion & art books, and nice quality
trims (including silk ribbon and cotton grosgrain)

Cheers,

Diana


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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Fri Apr  4 19:39:40 2003
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OOOOh, good question!!! Well, everything Diana said.... plus, if the 
fabrics/trims/etc. could be arranged for easy price/color comparison, 
ie., a section of, say, green taffetas all grouped together from most 
expensive(silk maybe) to least expensive (acetate) so you wouldn't have 
to truck all over the store, gathering up several bolts.

As a matter of fact, maybe the whole fabric area could be organized by 
color instead of by fiber, in a big circle, so one could stand in the 
middle and scan the offerings. (An aside here, I always felt square 
buildings were inefficient and unnatural; better shapes for buildings 
might be circular, no corners for dust bunnies to congregate in).

Another plus in such a store, a space with natural light coming in from 
an overhead so one wouldn't have to haul all those bolts of fabric to 
the doorway to see the true color!!! And trims definitely need to be in 
a bright area.

Accessories: elements for fan construction, bag/purse/pouch making, hat 
parts, the proper specific glues.

Well, this was fun.  I apologize for the length, I got carried away.....

Theresa EAcker

dch@inreach.com wrote:

> Hello everyone!
> 
> I am coming back to this list after a long absence and it is great to join
> you all again!
> 
> And I thought of a fun question for everyone to spark some discussion:
> 
> If you were to dream up the perfect fabric & accessories store, what would
> it have?
> 
> For me, I would want great textured fabrics, all kinds of silk,  lovely
> striped fabrics for a Victorian day dress, corset supplies (so I wouldn't
> have to mail order), hoop skirts, fashion & art books, and nice quality
> trims (including silk ribbon and cotton grosgrain)
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Diana
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
> 
> 


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To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
References: <5.2.0.9.2.20030404142742.023cda28@pop.oneandone.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Off Topic
Date: Sat, 5 Apr 2003 12:55:58 +1200
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> No, the British DVD's are in PAL format and in America you use NTSC. If
you
> try to play them you will get a black and white picture that will keep
> breaking up. There are places in the USA that will take your DVD and
> convert it, but please don't ask me how much they charge as I don't have a
> clue.

Really? So it's the same with videos... I mean.. it just seems so bizarre
that such different technology repeats the old... how the heck does that
work? Sorry, just musing... I'm so used to just hearing about regions.

I also know that different regions can also have different content:)

> >You can, however, play both regions on most computers, if you
> have a DVD drive in your computer.

Nope, same situcation as dvd players for the tv. As in some will allow you
to to play multi regional but mine will only allow 4 changes. That's not 4
regions, more like 1, 2, 1, 2 and from then on it will only play 2.

Unless I do a system restore on my comp and reinstall everything;)

So far I've used my dvd on my comp for watching Moulin Rouge, Dracula and
some Anime.. and take *lots* of screen caps of MR:) Extremely excellent for
seeing costume detail. I'm thinking of renting a few dvds.

michaela
http://recital.tripod.com/costume



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uhhhh........."101 to defend the posting to this list saying that we all use
light bulbs
and therefore the posts **are** relevant to this mail list."  .........I
guess I would fit into this catagory!!!  :)

Lisa


----- Original Message -----
From: <catpurson@juno.com>
To: <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Thursday, April 03, 2003 9:46 AM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] OT but funny


>         That is too true to be funny.  It is a keeper
>
> Lalah
> Never give up, Never surrender
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> > No, the British DVD's are in PAL format and in America you use NTSC. If
> you
> > try to play them you will get a black and white picture that will keep
> > breaking up. There are places in the USA that will take your DVD and
> > convert it, but please don't ask me how much they charge as I don't have
a
> > clue.
>
> Really? So it's the same with videos... I mean.. it just seems so bizarre
> that such different technology repeats the old... how the heck does that
> work? Sorry, just musing... I'm so used to just hearing about regions.
>
> I also know that different regions can also have different content:)
>
> > >You can, however, play both regions on most computers, if you
> > have a DVD drive in your computer.
>
> Nope, same situcation as dvd players for the tv. As in some will allow you
> to to play multi regional but mine will only allow 4 changes. That's not 4
> regions, more like 1, 2, 1, 2 and from then on it will only play 2.

As with all things it's really dependant on the equipment you have. Multi -
region/format VCRs and DVD players *are* available in the USA but are not
particularly common. I've just been having a similar discussion on another
list about trying to view some video copies of the old Wild Wild West TV
series.

Equipment that plays multiformat is more common in countries that use PAL
because it's easier to get a system to read a "slower" format that for
equipment to read a faster one. Certainly in Australia, New Zealand and
Europe multiformat technology is cheap enough for the home user to be able
to afford it.

As for DVD drives on your computer the drive itself will pretty much read
anything. It's what sort of software it comes with and what exclusions have
been programmed into it.

Paul
--
It's easier to ask forgiveness than to get permission. - W. Slovotsky
http://members.optushome.com.au/velvetspyder
Costumier & Reprobate

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Date: Fri, 04 Apr 2003 23:15:49 -0800
From: Carolyn Kayta Barrows <kayta@frys.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Fun question
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>I am coming back to this list after a long absence and it is great to join
>you all again!
>
>And I thought of a fun question for everyone to spark some discussion:
>
>If you were to dream up the perfect fabric & accessories store, what would
>it have?

I'd add a big flat-fold section, as I usually have the most fun in that 
department.  I'd put interesting drapery and upholstery remnants in it, 
cheap velvet, brocade, and wool remnants, natural fibre remnants, 
misprinted ugly calico (for making muslins, and some that's so misprinted 
it's good for fibre art stuff), and last year's fabric we didn't know we 
needed more of till this year.

         CarolynKayta Barrows
dollmaker, fibre artist, textillian
           www.FunStuft.com

              //// \\\
             ////-@@\\\
            ((((   7 )))
             (((  <> ))))
                )   ((((((
           /----\   /---\))

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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Sat Apr  5 05:04:44 2003
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From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" <drewscph@post12.tele.dk>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Fun question
Date: Sat, 5 Apr 2003 11:06:14 +0200
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Hi.
Yes all the fabrics, wich you dont get anymore, and the shop should have a
large range of silk embroidery threads, and metal threads, spangels and the
like.
If such a store excisted here in Copenhagen, i would be a poor man.

Bjarne


Leif og Bjarne Drews
www.my-drewscostumes.dk

http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/
----- Original Message -----
From: <dch@inreach.com>
To: <h-costume@net.indra.com>
Sent: Saturday, April 05, 2003 12:54 AM
Subject: [h-cost] Fun question


> Hello everyone!
>
> I am coming back to this list after a long absence and it is great to join
> you all again!
>
> And I thought of a fun question for everyone to spark some discussion:
>
> If you were to dream up the perfect fabric & accessories store, what would
> it have?
>
> For me, I would want great textured fabrics, all kinds of silk,  lovely
> striped fabrics for a Victorian day dress, corset supplies (so I wouldn't
> have to mail order), hoop skirts, fashion & art books, and nice quality
> trims (including silk ribbon and cotton grosgrain)
>
> Cheers,
>
> Diana
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
>


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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Sat Apr  5 06:34:20 2003
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From: "Linda Rice" <vmaa2@cox.net>
To: "'Historical Costume'" <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: RE: [h-cost] Off Topic
Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2003 21:56:57 -0500
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We play DVD's in the PlayStation. Anyone know how 'compatible' that is
with other formats? Thanks for such an interesting thread, I have to
admit that this is something that I had never thought too much about. I
knew tapes were specific, but I thought a disk was a disk was a disk.
Thanks for saving me some money!

Pax,

:Linda:

-----Original Message-----
From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com] On Behalf Of Baralier

As with all things it's really dependant on the equipment you have.
Multi -
region/format VCRs and DVD players *are* available in the USA but are
not
particularly common. I've just been having a similar discussion on
another
list about trying to view some video copies of the old Wild Wild West TV
series.

Equipment that plays multiformat is more common in countries that use
PAL
because it's easier to get a system to read a "slower" format that for
equipment to read a faster one. Certainly in Australia, New Zealand and
Europe multiformat technology is cheap enough for the home user to be
able
to afford it.

As for DVD drives on your computer the drive itself will pretty much
read
anything. It's what sort of software it comes with and what exclusions
have
been programmed into it.

Paul



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From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" <drewscph@post12.tele.dk>
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Subject: [h-cost] Queen Anne Dress
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Hi
Someone said, that there is a collar behind the standing lace collar. Would
this be a standing collar attached to the bodice?
Would this collar have bones in it, to make it stand?
It is something i never thoaght about before. There is another danish
portrait, where there is a shadow behind the lace, this might be the same
then.
That lace i baught from England, recently, (the copyed Elizabethan Reticella
lace would come in handy for this projekt.) I wondered if i could make those
beautifull corners of the collar, i guess i can if i try.
Looking at this collar makes me wonder if the lacemakers made those corners.
It looks really like it has not ben altered like other laces ( i think about
the falling bands in 17th century, they are manipulated)
Oh i wish i could express myself as wonderfull as you other english
languaged guys, sometimes it is hard to be one of the few non english
languaged people.
Oh my god, we have the most terrible stormy weather right now. The weather
is bright sunshine, but very hard winds from the north, i think winter comes
again!
What are you all doing, it is so quiet today!!!!



Bjarne from Copenhagen
Leif og Bjarne Drews
www.my-drewscostumes.dk

http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/


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> What are you all doing, it is so quiet today!!!!

  Looking at more snow, and a LOT of ice from the snow, ice, and freezing
rain we had all day yesterday.   With more tomorrow.     Barely north of
here, they had almost all snow, so they have had about a foot and a half in
2 days, and are looking at at least another foot forecast for today.   The
only reason I'm not shovelling is because I am in a river valley, so we got
wetter stuff.
  So I reformatted my computer, and reinstalled everything.   And I worked
on making that Russian costume for my favorite little kindergartener,  who
is (as always) very particular in her colors and design.  (Thanks to
EVERYONE who gave me sites and suggestions!!!)   I am very thankful for
machines that run those nice geometric, embroidery like stitches up and down
the sleeves and the dress.     Some, embroidery, some trim,  on bright
yellow fabric.....
Today, I can't put off my taxes anymore, since I am going to a wedding in
Pittsburgh next weekend.
And I really, really don't want to do this very complicated thing, even with
the help of a tax program.   I amy yet take it to a tax service, although I
hate to cry defeat by paperwork!
Rowena

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Subject: [h-cost] A good friend forwarded me this about friends
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A Friend is 
Like A Good Bra... 

Hard to Find 
Supportive 
Comfortable
Uplifting  
And Always Close To Our Heart!!!
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Here in Colorado Springs we got an inch of snow overnight. I haven't
heard a forecast for today beyond "wet, dreary and cold".

A good day to stay inside and organize the sewing area! I bought some
navy blue almost gauze yesterday. It looks like a misprint, as you can
see the faintest shadows of some flowers. I hope they show up a bit in
the sunshine. It's for a summer overdress (@1600), with a row of narrow
needle lace around the neckline. I also got some 1/2 yard cuts of misc
stuff off the flat fold remnant (is that redundant?) table for making
cushion covers. 

MD/Marged
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Queen Anne Dress
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In a message dated 4/5/2003 6:54:13 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
drewscph@post12.tele.dk writes:


> Someone said, that there is a collar behind the standing lace collar. Would
> this be a standing collar attached to the bodice?
> Would this collar have bones in it, to make it stand?
> 

It might be a blue "supportass" [did I spell that right?]. There is a real 
one somewhere...the V&A? Isn't it in Janet Arnold? Anyway I've seen it in a 
photo somewhere attached to a Ropa, which has a high neck. The wide scoop 
neck of the gown would require a rethinking of this. I don't know if a 
supportass for a gown still exists. Anyone? 
It is very stiff but I don't think it was boned. Instead, it's made of stiff 
heavy paper or leather or something and covered with silk. This doesn't mean 
it could not be boned with baleen or reeds or something. Doesn't QEI have 
those big heart shaped collars wired up with gold wire?

As far as the lace goes..... isn't this the beginning of a period where lace 
making reaches a pinnacle? There are shaped collars with matching cuffs made 
with the finest of skill.
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>If you were to dream up the perfect fabric & accessories store, what would
>it have?

Natural fabrics, trims and threads.  Also books on historical clothing, 
fashion and pattern drafting.  Weekly classes on a variety of modern and 
period sewing techniques.

And... and...and...

Jennifer

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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Sat Apr  5 10:49:32 2003
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Subject: [h-cost] Re: OT, movies
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My father insists that videos and DVDs have different content in different
areas of the country (the USA). Now, I know that European and American
releases of movies are sometimes different. "Pretty Woman" is supposed to
have a different ending in Europe, and "The Highlander" European edition has
a few different scenes. But I don't see how anyone could change the content
of a film in general distribution, with different scenes in California and,
say, New York. Does anyone know if this is true?

On the other hand, we would all go broke hunting down and buying different
versions of our favorite costume films! I can just imagine the reaction on
this list of, say, the American version of a costume film had a different
view of a popular costume than the European film! And if that should happen
to be true, we'd better start comparing notes!

Gail Finke

PS: I wish that DVDs would come with rated G or PG versions of movies. I bet
a lot of parents would buy them.

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	Sat, 05 Apr 2003 16:11:19 BST
Date: Sat, 5 Apr 2003 16:11:19 +0100 (BST)
From: =?iso-8859-1?q?N=20Kipar?= <nicolas_fouquet@yahoo.com>
Subject: supportasse photos, was Re: [h-cost] Queen Anne Dress
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 --- AlbertCat@aol.com wrote: > 
> It might be a blue "supportass" [did I spell that right?]. There is a real 
> one somewhere...the V&A? Isn't it in Janet Arnold? Anyway I've seen it in a 
> photo somewhere attached to a Ropa, which has a high neck. The wide scoop 
> neck of the gown would require a rethinking of this. I don't know if a 
> supportass for a gown still exists. Anyone? 

Yes, it exists, it is in the V&A but unfortunately not on display anymore (as
far as I remmeber, will be back in London in the V&A - hehehe, paid by work,
coz I have a falh-day conference in Kensington) on the 16th, will check. I
uploaded two photos - none of them are mine, I don't claim copyright) of the
V&A supportasse:

http://www.kipar.org/h-costume/

Nicole

=====
"Brains, not Bombs"
http://www.stopthewar.org.uk/

Nicole Kipar M.A.
URL: http://www.kipar.org/
Email: nicole@kipar.org

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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>, <h-costume@net.indra.com>
From: Heather Rose Jones <hrjones@socrates.berkeley.edu>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Fun question
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At 2:54 PM -0800 4/4/03, <dch@inreach.com> wrote:

>If you were to dream up the perfect fabric & accessories store, what would
>it have?

The _perfect_ fabric store would have a "weave-on-demand" 
computerized loom where you could specify the materials, colors, 
weave type, maybe scan in a motif-repeat, and it would weave you 
whatever you wanted on the spot ... oh, and the _perfect_ store would 
be able to do at reasonable prices, too!

Hey, it's my fantasy, darn it!

Heather
-- 
*****
Heather Rose Jones
hrjones@socrates.berkeley.edu
*****
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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>, <h-costume@net.indra.com>
From: Heather Rose Jones <hrjones@socrates.berkeley.edu>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Fun question
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At 2:54 PM -0800 4/4/03, <dch@inreach.com> wrote:

>If you were to dream up the perfect fabric & accessories store, what would
>it have?

The _perfect_ fabric store would have a "weave-on-demand" 
computerized loom where you could specify the materials, colors, 
weave type, maybe scan in a motif-repeat, and it would weave you 
whatever you wanted on the spot ... oh, and the _perfect_ store would 
be able to do at reasonable prices, too!

Hey, it's my fantasy, darn it!

Heather
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: OT, movies
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In a message dated 4/5/2003 9:50:11 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
gailscott@eos.net writes:


> PS: I wish that DVDs would come with rated G or PG versions of movies. I bet
> a lot of parents would buy them.
> 

Yeah....like the Zeffirelli version of "Hamlet" with an alternate 
ending....he marries Ophelia and Claudius really WAS framed......
Or maybe "A Clockwork Orange" where Alex just makes bad grades at school.

Gail! What are you advocating? Censorship???

I'm shocked....SHOCKED I tell you! :-O

Seriously, I just wish they'd put "Little Dorrit" on DVD.
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Endangered buying & selling
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At 5:40 PM -0500 4/4/03, Lloyd Mitchell wrote:
>  From: "Heather Rose Jones" <hrjones@socrates.berkeley.edu>
>  > At 10:16 PM -0600 4/3/03, Land of Oz wrote:
>>  >  > website has a place to ask their question Ranger questions.  I asked
>>  >there,
>>  >>  about the specific bird I wanted, and got a prompt reply (anything
>with a
>>  >>  legal hunting season, like a pheasant, is assumed to have been taken
>>  >>  legally and is OK).
>>  >
>>  >
>>  >usually you can assume that any introduced species is also legal. For
>>  >instance it is illegal to possess migratory song birds (cardinals,
>finches,
>>  >etc) but non-native pest species (like starlings in the US) are okay.  It
>>  >would be interesting to see a stuffed starling as part of a costume!
>Maybe
>>  >perched in a tall highly ornamented hat.  I suppose there is a feather
>>  >covered accessory that could be done all in black for *some* one's period
>of
>>  >choice.  :-)
>>
>>  Starlings have a more ornamental plumage than you might think --
>  > iridescent purple and green highlights.

>A couple of years ago I ordered from my feather supplier an extra full boa
>for my Merlin costume.  The piece that came was stunning! I wondered at the
>time if it might be 'starling' for these reasons...black with lots of green
>and purple lights. It seemed at the time that it would have taken a LOT of
>rooster plumage of those colors.

Not likely to be starlings for a feather boa unless it was for a 
Barbie doll. :)  They're tiny little things.  You're probably right 
that it was rooster plumage, given those colors.

Heather
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From: "Linda Rice" <vmaa2@cox.net>
To: "'Historical Costume'" <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: RE: [h-cost] Re: OT, movies
Date: Sat, 5 Apr 2003 03:07:54 -0500
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Actually, I heard on the news last week that there is a company that
takes regular movies and re-edits them to remove the violence, sex, etc
and then sells the finished product as suitable for all ages. IIRC they
have at least the knowledge if not the approval of the movie companies
to do this. The story said that some movies can't be done, because once
all the sex and violence are removed there is not enough left to hold a
movie together!

Linda


-----Original Message-----
 [h-cost] Re: OT, movies

gailscott@eos.net writes:

> PS: I wish that DVDs would come with rated G or PG versions of movies.
I bet
> a lot of parents would buy them.
> 



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From: "Lisa Sinervo" <lisa-list@threadneedlest.com>
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: OT, movies
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A video store in Utah has been doing that for years for their conservative
clientele.  "Who", the sister magazine of "People" in Australia ran an
article of what the movies theoretically would end up like after the
editing.  Can't remember them all, but "The Full Monty" was a story about
some unemployed English factory workers that stayed unemployed etc....

Lisa


----- Original Message -----
From: "Linda Rice" <vmaa2@cox.net>
To: "'Historical Costume'" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Saturday, April 05, 2003 12:07 AM
Subject: RE: [h-cost] Re: OT, movies


> Actually, I heard on the news last week that there is a company that
> takes regular movies and re-edits them to remove the violence, sex, etc
> and then sells the finished product as suitable for all ages. IIRC they
> have at least the knowledge if not the approval of the movie companies
> to do this. The story said that some movies can't be done, because once
> all the sex and violence are removed there is not enough left to hold a
> movie together!
>
> Linda
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
>  [h-cost] Re: OT, movies
>
> gailscott@eos.net writes:
>
> > PS: I wish that DVDs would come with rated G or PG versions of movies.
> I bet
> > a lot of parents would buy them.
> >
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume


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> Oh i wish i could express myself as wonderfull as you other english
> languaged guys, sometimes it is hard to be one of the few non english
> languaged people.

I think there are a lot more non English speakers than we might think. I'm a
native French speaker, and I'm sure I'm not the only one. I have to admit
though, studying in English and living in a totally bilingual city helped a
lot :-)

> Oh my god, we have the most terrible stormy weather right now. The weather
> is bright sunshine, but very hard winds from the north, i think winter
comes
> again!

Snow, snow, snow, it started during the night and is supposed to last all
day. I can remember going around in sandals and a mini skirt around this
time a few years ago. Of course, it was pretty unusual at the time, and so
is today's weather. But thinking that this week it barely went over freezing
point is a little discouraging, especially after the few weeks of warm
weather we had recently.

What I'm doing? Well, now that I'm finally connected to the Internet again
(modem died, it took 4 days for customer service to show up because the guys
at central don't understand the meaning of "I won't be there on Thursday"),
I have about 500 messages to read :-) Then I'll be working on my end of term
assignments, and when I need a break, I'll finish cutting a smock for my
first Elizabethan. Better to do it before my mother comes back from vacation
to find all this fabric lying on the floor! (the only flat space big enough
to lay out anything bigger than a skirt).

A quiet and pleasant day!
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Very cool pictures-thank you Nicole.  I have to run somewhere, but I
have a photo of an actual wired supportasse in a book.  I think you have
found the closer item but it might be interesting just to chat about.  I
will put it up when I get home.

Sg



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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: OT, movies
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>Pretty Woman" is supposed to
have a different ending in Europe,

There were I believe 2 endings filmed. In one his is too late in the other
they live happily ever after

Mel

This e-mail, and any attachment, is confidential. If you have received
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Company, unless specifically stated.



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From: Jacobson Dawn <dme_maud@pacbell.net>
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The perfect store:

A cross between:

Stone Mountain & Daughter
Dharma Trading Company
AlterYears
Lacis
Skein Lane (a yarn shop)
Needle in a Haystack

with a professional, knowledgeable staff and a tea
shop so I can get a "cuppa." After all, this much
shopping is hard work! 8-)

Dawn

=====
Dawn Jacobson
Vallejo, CA, USA

Learn the rules well, so you can break them properly.
--Dalai Lama
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Subject: [h-cost] Russian Costume... Was: Queen Anne Dress
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Rowena,
Won't you please, please, please show us a picture of the little Russian 
costume once you've completed it?  We would all love to see how it has 
turned out.

:) jessica

p.s. Today I am working on my first toile for my new Draping Class.  I am 
sewing in the darts, sewing the basic bodice to the basic straight skirt and 
then going to sew bias tape onto all the edges. I also need to go find a 
cotton weave fabric to use for my future projects and buy bias tape.  Then I 
need to do a bunch of Laundry, go to Ikea and get a new duvet cover (or else 
fid some really big, cheap fabric at the store and make one) and then pay my 
bills and then do taxes.  That's a pretty full day!


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Subject: [h-cost] Surcoat fabric
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Hi all

After finishing a costume for a client, I can finally do something for 
myself. I have a Ren Faire at the end of April, where I will be joining a 
nobles group for Elizabeth's court. Having just had a baby, I don't want to 
wear a corset so I am about to embark on my first Spanish style surcoat, 
similar to one in Janet Arnold's Pattens of Fashion; the one with the 
appliques down the front, but with a fuller pleated back.

I wanted to make it out of a fine suit wool I have, with the appliques in 
either black satin or velvet. However, a friend commented that nobles would 
not be wearing wool garments, but it should be in a velvet with satin 
appliques.

I was wondering if I can go ahead with the wool, or try to find enough 
velvet (I prefer cotton velveteen) to make the surcoat with. I wanted the 
wool because 1. I already have it. 2. It was clearance wool (but 100% 
wool). 3. Cotton velveteen rubs off in the back area, and I didn't want
that happening with my surcoat. I plan on lining the garment in a light 
cotton (maybe silk if I can find something relatively inexpensive).

I was also wondering if there are any tricks or problem areas I should be 
aware of in making the surcoat? Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

Kimiko


Kimiko Small
Costumer, Fiber Artist, Web Designer, Wife and Mother
kimiko@kimiko1.com; http://www.kimiko1.com

Graphic Intern at Costume Gallery
http://www.costumegallery.com

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From: Deredere Galbraith <triade@kabelfoon.nl>
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Hi,

I am making mine from wool.
But I don't know if this is apropriate for nobels.
Maby my website can be of little help.
http://home.kabelfoon.nl/~triade/Projects/Loosegown.html
Witin two weeks I wil have time to work on my gown again :-) :-) .

Greetings,
        Deredere


Kimiko Small wrote:

> Hi all
>
> After finishing a costume for a client, I can finally do something for 
> myself. I have a Ren Faire at the end of April, where I will be 
> joining a nobles group for Elizabeth's court. Having just had a baby, 
> I don't want to wear a corset so I am about to embark on my first 
> Spanish style surcoat, similar to one in Janet Arnold's Pattens of 
> Fashion; the one with the appliques down the front, but with a fuller 
> pleated back.
>
> I wanted to make it out of a fine suit wool I have, with the appliques 
> in either black satin or velvet. However, a friend commented that 
> nobles would not be wearing wool garments, but it should be in a 
> velvet with satin appliques.
>
> I was wondering if I can go ahead with the wool, or try to find enough 
> velvet (I prefer cotton velveteen) to make the surcoat with. I wanted 
> the wool because 1. I already have it. 2. It was clearance wool (but 
> 100% wool). 3. Cotton velveteen rubs off in the back area, and I 
> didn't want
> that happening with my surcoat. I plan on lining the garment in a 
> light cotton (maybe silk if I can find something relatively inexpensive).
>
> I was also wondering if there are any tricks or problem areas I should 
> be aware of in making the surcoat? Any suggestions would be greatly 
> appreciated.
>
> Kimiko
>
>
> Kimiko Small
> Costumer, Fiber Artist, Web Designer, Wife and Mother
> kimiko@kimiko1.com; http://www.kimiko1.com
>
> Graphic Intern at Costume Gallery
> http://www.costumegallery.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
>



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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Surcoat fabric
Date: Sat, 05 Apr 2003 13:21:59 -0500
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Everybody wears wool---it's one of the biggest exports England has.  Think 
about your own wardrobe:  you probably have some really dressy clothes 
(velvet), but most of your clothes aren't dressy (wool).  Or maybe you have 
some incredibly beautiful, finely woven wool that you want to use as a 
"best" dress.



Nancy Kiel
nancy_kiel@hotmail.com
Never tease a weasel!
This is very good advice.
For the weasel will not like it
And teasing isn't nice.





>From: Kimiko Small <kimiko@kimiko1.com>
>Reply-To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
>To: h-costume@indra.com
>Subject: [h-cost] Surcoat fabric
>Date: Sat, 05 Apr 2003 09:54:04 -0800
>
>Hi all
>
>After finishing a costume for a client, I can finally do something for 
>myself. I have a Ren Faire at the end of April, where I will be joining a 
>nobles group for Elizabeth's court. Having just had a baby, I don't want to 
>wear a corset so I am about to embark on my first Spanish style surcoat, 
>similar to one in Janet Arnold's Pattens of Fashion; the one with the 
>appliques down the front, but with a fuller pleated back.
>
>I wanted to make it out of a fine suit wool I have, with the appliques in 
>either black satin or velvet. However, a friend commented that nobles would 
>not be wearing wool garments, but it should be in a velvet with satin 
>appliques.
>
>I was wondering if I can go ahead with the wool, or try to find enough 
>velvet (I prefer cotton velveteen) to make the surcoat with. I wanted the 
>wool because 1. I already have it. 2. It was clearance wool (but 100% 
>wool). 3. Cotton velveteen rubs off in the back area, and I didn't want
>that happening with my surcoat. I plan on lining the garment in a light 
>cotton (maybe silk if I can find something relatively inexpensive).
>
>I was also wondering if there are any tricks or problem areas I should be 
>aware of in making the surcoat? Any suggestions would be greatly 
>appreciated.
>
>Kimiko
>
>
>Kimiko Small
>Costumer, Fiber Artist, Web Designer, Wife and Mother
>kimiko@kimiko1.com; http://www.kimiko1.com
>
>Graphic Intern at Costume Gallery
>http://www.costumegallery.com
>
>_______________________________________________
>h-costume mailing list
>h-costume@mail.indra.com
>http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume


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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Sat Apr  5 14:25:42 2003
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Date: Sat, 5 Apr 2003 10:25:40 -0800
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: OT, movies
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There are companies already doing this, and they are currently
getting sued by the studios.  Also, Blockbuster video has essentially
forced studios to produce lower rated versions of their movies (or they
won't carry them in ANY store) and I believe there's a lawsuit over
that, as well.


On Saturday, April 5, 2003, at 07:23 AM, AlbertCat@aol.com wrote:

> In a message dated 4/5/2003 9:50:11 AM Eastern Standard Time,
> gailscott@eos.net writes:
>
>
>> PS: I wish that DVDs would come with rated G or PG versions of 
>> movies. I bet
>> a lot of parents would buy them.
>>
>
> Yeah....like the Zeffirelli version of "Hamlet" with an alternate
> ending....he marries Ophelia and Claudius really WAS framed......
> Or maybe "A Clockwork Orange" where Alex just makes bad grades at 
> school.
>
> Gail! What are you advocating? Censorship???
>
> I'm shocked....SHOCKED I tell you! :-O
>
> Seriously, I just wish they'd put "Little Dorrit" on DVD.
> _______________________________________________
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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Sat Apr  5 14:29:09 2003
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Surcoat fabric
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actually, a lot of people don't wear wool, or only have a sweater or
two out of it.  Most people I know stick to cottons for everyday wear -
I have to search long and hard to find good wool clothes casual enough
for everyday.


On Saturday, April 5, 2003, at 10:21 AM, Nancy Kiel wrote:

> Everybody wears wool---it's one of the biggest exports England has.  
> Think about your own wardrobe:  you probably have some really dressy 
> clothes (velvet), but most of your clothes aren't dressy (wool).  Or 
> maybe you have some incredibly beautiful, finely woven wool that you 
> want to use as a "best" dress.
>
>
>
> Nancy Kiel
> nancy_kiel@hotmail.com
> Never tease a weasel!
> This is very good advice.
> For the weasel will not like it
> And teasing isn't nice.
>
>
>
>
>
>> From: Kimiko Small <kimiko@kimiko1.com>
>> Reply-To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
>> To: h-costume@indra.com
>> Subject: [h-cost] Surcoat fabric
>> Date: Sat, 05 Apr 2003 09:54:04 -0800
>>
>> Hi all
>>
>> After finishing a costume for a client, I can finally do something 
>> for myself. I have a Ren Faire at the end of April, where I will be 
>> joining a nobles group for Elizabeth's court. Having just had a baby, 
>> I don't want to wear a corset so I am about to embark on my first 
>> Spanish style surcoat, similar to one in Janet Arnold's Pattens of 
>> Fashion; the one with the appliques down the front, but with a fuller 
>> pleated back.
>>
>> I wanted to make it out of a fine suit wool I have, with the 
>> appliques in either black satin or velvet. However, a friend 
>> commented that nobles would not be wearing wool garments, but it 
>> should be in a velvet with satin appliques.
>>
>> I was wondering if I can go ahead with the wool, or try to find 
>> enough velvet (I prefer cotton velveteen) to make the surcoat with. I 
>> wanted the wool because 1. I already have it. 2. It was clearance 
>> wool (but 100% wool). 3. Cotton velveteen rubs off in the back area, 
>> and I didn't want
>> that happening with my surcoat. I plan on lining the garment in a 
>> light cotton (maybe silk if I can find something relatively 
>> inexpensive).
>>
>> I was also wondering if there are any tricks or problem areas I 
>> should be aware of in making the surcoat? Any suggestions would be 
>> greatly appreciated.
>>
>> Kimiko
>>
>>
>> Kimiko Small
>> Costumer, Fiber Artist, Web Designer, Wife and Mother
>> kimiko@kimiko1.com; http://www.kimiko1.com
>>
>> Graphic Intern at Costume Gallery
>> http://www.costumegallery.com
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> h-costume mailing list
>> h-costume@mail.indra.com
>> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Surcoat fabric
Date: Sat, 05 Apr 2003 13:54:07 -0500
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orry, I was referring to Elizabethan clothing.



Nancy Kiel
nancy_kiel@hotmail.com
Never tease a weasel!
This is very good advice.
For the weasel will not like it
And teasing isn't nice.





>From: Heather Meadows <alice@wonderland.com>
>Reply-To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
>To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
>Subject: Re: [h-cost] Surcoat fabric
>Date: Sat, 5 Apr 2003 10:29:03 -0800
>
>actually, a lot of people don't wear wool, or only have a sweater or
>two out of it.  Most people I know stick to cottons for everyday wear -
>I have to search long and hard to find good wool clothes casual enough
>for everyday.
>
>
>On Saturday, April 5, 2003, at 10:21 AM, Nancy Kiel wrote:
>
>>Everybody wears wool---it's one of the biggest exports England has.  Think 
>>about your own wardrobe:  you probably have some really dressy clothes 
>>(velvet), but most of your clothes aren't dressy (wool).  Or maybe you 
>>have some incredibly beautiful, finely woven wool that you want to use as 
>>a "best" dress.


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From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" <drewscph@post12.tele.dk>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
References: <20030405151119.86675.qmail@web41510.mail.yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: supportasse photos, was Re: [h-cost] Queen Anne Dress
Date: Sat, 5 Apr 2003 21:46:19 +0200
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Come on!
My question was if there were a collar in behind of the lace colar. You say
yes, it is a supportasse. And i say OK!
I have lots of pictures of suppportasses, so dont worry.
Well
This night, saturday night i dressed up for my husband Leif, for the Bath
Ball!!!
I tell you!!!!!!!!!!
I will be so incredible incredible beautifull to look at!!!!!!!!!!!
With beautifull make-up and tight breeches and 3 rolls each ear and a large
tail behind.
You should see my stock kravat buckle soooooooo beautifull, but i tell you,
only the close people gets to see it
My pose is sooooooooooo sooooooooooo beautifull and you have never seen
anything like it
I nearly faint............. but Leif is impressed at last!!!!!!!!!!!!!




Leif og Bjarne Drews
www.my-drewscostumes.dk

http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/
----- Original Message -----
From: "N Kipar" <nicolas_fouquet@yahoo.com>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Saturday, April 05, 2003 5:11 PM
Subject: supportasse photos, was Re: [h-cost] Queen Anne Dress


> --- AlbertCat@aol.com wrote: >
> > It might be a blue "supportass" [did I spell that right?]. There is a
real
> > one somewhere...the V&A? Isn't it in Janet Arnold? Anyway I've seen it
in a
> > photo somewhere attached to a Ropa, which has a high neck. The wide
scoop
> > neck of the gown would require a rethinking of this. I don't know if a
> > supportass for a gown still exists. Anyone?
>
> Yes, it exists, it is in the V&A but unfortunately not on display anymore
(as
> far as I remmeber, will be back in London in the V&A - hehehe, paid by
work,
> coz I have a falh-day conference in Kensington) on the 16th, will check. I
> uploaded two photos - none of them are mine, I don't claim copyright) of
the
> V&A supportasse:
>
> http://www.kipar.org/h-costume/
>
> Nicole
>
> =====
> "Brains, not Bombs"
> http://www.stopthewar.org.uk/
>
> Nicole Kipar M.A.
> URL: http://www.kipar.org/
> Email: nicole@kipar.org
>
> __________________________________________________
> Yahoo! Plus
> For a better Internet experience
> http://www.yahoo.co.uk/btoffer
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
>


_______________________________________________
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	<000b01c2fbac$075e9160$4096fea9@CPQ21932199711>
Subject: Re: supportasse photos, was Re: [h-cost] Queen Anne Dress
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Status: RO

Just make sure your camera works correctly :-) We want to see it :-)

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" <drewscph@post12.tele.dk>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Saturday, April 05, 2003 2:46 PM
Subject: Re: supportasse photos, was Re: [h-cost] Queen Anne Dress


> Come on!
> My question was if there were a collar in behind of the lace colar. You
say
> yes, it is a supportasse. And i say OK!
> I have lots of pictures of suppportasses, so dont worry.
> Well
> This night, saturday night i dressed up for my husband Leif, for the Bath
> Ball!!!
> I tell you!!!!!!!!!!
> I will be so incredible incredible beautifull to look at!!!!!!!!!!!
> With beautifull make-up and tight breeches and 3 rolls each ear and a
large
> tail behind.
> You should see my stock kravat buckle soooooooo beautifull, but i tell
you,
> only the close people gets to see it
> My pose is sooooooooooo sooooooooooo beautifull and you have never seen
> anything like it
> I nearly faint............. but Leif is impressed at last!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>
>
>
>
> Leif og Bjarne Drews
> www.my-drewscostumes.dk
>
> http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "N Kipar" <nicolas_fouquet@yahoo.com>
> To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
> Sent: Saturday, April 05, 2003 5:11 PM
> Subject: supportasse photos, was Re: [h-cost] Queen Anne Dress
>
>
> > --- AlbertCat@aol.com wrote: >
> > > It might be a blue "supportass" [did I spell that right?]. There is a
> real
> > > one somewhere...the V&A? Isn't it in Janet Arnold? Anyway I've seen it
> in a
> > > photo somewhere attached to a Ropa, which has a high neck. The wide
> scoop
> > > neck of the gown would require a rethinking of this. I don't know if a
> > > supportass for a gown still exists. Anyone?
> >
> > Yes, it exists, it is in the V&A but unfortunately not on display
anymore
> (as
> > far as I remmeber, will be back in London in the V&A - hehehe, paid by
> work,
> > coz I have a falh-day conference in Kensington) on the 16th, will check.
I
> > uploaded two photos - none of them are mine, I don't claim copyright) of
> the
> > V&A supportasse:
> >
> > http://www.kipar.org/h-costume/
> >
> > Nicole
> >
> > =====
> > "Brains, not Bombs"
> > http://www.stopthewar.org.uk/
> >
> > Nicole Kipar M.A.
> > URL: http://www.kipar.org/
> > Email: nicole@kipar.org
> >
> > __________________________________________________
> > Yahoo! Plus
> > For a better Internet experience
> > http://www.yahoo.co.uk/btoffer
> > _______________________________________________
> > h-costume mailing list
> > h-costume@mail.indra.com
> > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
>
_______________________________________________
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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Sat Apr  5 16:08:51 2003
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From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" <drewscph@post12.tele.dk>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
References: <000f01c2fb94$5bbdeb60$6401a8c0@mycomputer>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] RE: supportasse photos
Date: Sat, 5 Apr 2003 22:10:40 +0200
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Hey Saragrace!
The catalog from Munic has 2 supportasses each very pretty edged with lace.

Hey!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1
Wait you just and see after the Georgian Ball at Bath


Leif og Bjarne Drews
www.my-drewscostumes.dk

http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Saragrace Knauf" <saragrace@earthlink.net>
To: "'Historical Costume'" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Saturday, April 05, 2003 6:56 PM
Subject: [h-cost] RE: supportasse photos


> Very cool pictures-thank you Nicole.  I have to run somewhere, but I
> have a photo of an actual wired supportasse in a book.  I think you have
> found the closer item but it might be interesting just to chat about.  I
> will put it up when I get home.
> 
> Sg
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
> 


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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Sat Apr  5 16:10:58 2003
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Subject: Re: supportasse photos, was Re: [h-cost] Queen Anne Dress
Date: Sat, 5 Apr 2003 22:12:35 +0200
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I have severral memory cards with me, so dont worry!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Leif og Bjarne Drews
www.my-drewscostumes.dk

http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/
----- Original Message -----
From: "Audrey Bergeron-Morin" <audreybmorin2@hotmail.com>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Saturday, April 05, 2003 10:07 PM
Subject: Re: supportasse photos, was Re: [h-cost] Queen Anne Dress


> Just make sure your camera works correctly :-) We want to see it :-)
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" <drewscph@post12.tele.dk>
> To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
> Sent: Saturday, April 05, 2003 2:46 PM
> Subject: Re: supportasse photos, was Re: [h-cost] Queen Anne Dress
>
>
> > Come on!
> > My question was if there were a collar in behind of the lace colar. You
> say
> > yes, it is a supportasse. And i say OK!
> > I have lots of pictures of suppportasses, so dont worry.
> > Well
> > This night, saturday night i dressed up for my husband Leif, for the
Bath
> > Ball!!!
> > I tell you!!!!!!!!!!
> > I will be so incredible incredible beautifull to look at!!!!!!!!!!!
> > With beautifull make-up and tight breeches and 3 rolls each ear and a
> large
> > tail behind.
> > You should see my stock kravat buckle soooooooo beautifull, but i tell
> you,
> > only the close people gets to see it
> > My pose is sooooooooooo sooooooooooo beautifull and you have never seen
> > anything like it
> > I nearly faint............. but Leif is impressed at last!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Leif og Bjarne Drews
> > www.my-drewscostumes.dk
> >
> > http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "N Kipar" <nicolas_fouquet@yahoo.com>
> > To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
> > Sent: Saturday, April 05, 2003 5:11 PM
> > Subject: supportasse photos, was Re: [h-cost] Queen Anne Dress
> >
> >
> > > --- AlbertCat@aol.com wrote: >
> > > > It might be a blue "supportass" [did I spell that right?]. There is
a
> > real
> > > > one somewhere...the V&A? Isn't it in Janet Arnold? Anyway I've seen
it
> > in a
> > > > photo somewhere attached to a Ropa, which has a high neck. The wide
> > scoop
> > > > neck of the gown would require a rethinking of this. I don't know if
a
> > > > supportass for a gown still exists. Anyone?
> > >
> > > Yes, it exists, it is in the V&A but unfortunately not on display
> anymore
> > (as
> > > far as I remmeber, will be back in London in the V&A - hehehe, paid by
> > work,
> > > coz I have a falh-day conference in Kensington) on the 16th, will
check.
> I
> > > uploaded two photos - none of them are mine, I don't claim copyright)
of
> > the
> > > V&A supportasse:
> > >
> > > http://www.kipar.org/h-costume/
> > >
> > > Nicole
> > >
> > > =====
> > > "Brains, not Bombs"
> > > http://www.stopthewar.org.uk/
> > >
> > > Nicole Kipar M.A.
> > > URL: http://www.kipar.org/
> > > Email: nicole@kipar.org
> > >
> > > __________________________________________________
> > > Yahoo! Plus
> > > For a better Internet experience
> > > http://www.yahoo.co.uk/btoffer
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > h-costume mailing list
> > > h-costume@mail.indra.com
> > > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
> > >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > h-costume mailing list
> > h-costume@mail.indra.com
> > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
> >
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
>


_______________________________________________
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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Endangered buying & selling
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>>A couple of years ago I ordered from my feather supplier an extra full boa
>>for my Merlin costume.  The piece that came was stunning! I wondered at the
>>time if it might be 'starling' for these reasons...black with lots of green
>>and purple lights. It seemed at the time that it would have taken a LOT of
>>rooster plumage of those colors.
>
>Not likely to be starlings for a feather boa unless it was for a Barbie 
>doll. :)  They're tiny little things.  You're probably right that it was 
>rooster plumage, given those colors.

Starlings are about the size of a robin.  They're smaller than a pigeon and 
larger than a sparrow.  The male is a glossy iridescent black, while the 
female is a dull brownish black.

Meanwhile, roosters don't produce eggs for the egg rancher, and I'm 
guessing there's a 50/50 chance that any fertile egg will produce a male 
bird.  If so, these extra birds will certainly end up as meat products and 
feather products.

         CarolynKayta Barrows
dollmaker, fibre artist, textillian
           www.FunStuft.com

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Date: Sat, 05 Apr 2003 12:25:40 -0800
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Carolyn Kayta Barrows <kayta@frys.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Fun question
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>Yes all the fabrics, wich you dont get anymore, and the shop should have a
>large range of silk embroidery threads, and metal threads, spangels and the
>like.
>If such a store excisted here in Copenhagen, i would be a poor man.
>
>Bjarne

Or you'd own it, and get rich mail-ordering to the rest of us.


         CarolynKayta Barrows
dollmaker, fibre artist, textillian
           www.FunStuft.com

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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Carolyn Kayta Barrows <kayta@frys.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Winter again - OK, get out the maps!
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>Here in Colorado Springs we got an inch of snow overnight. I haven't
>heard a forecast for today beyond "wet, dreary and cold".
>
>A good day to stay inside and organize the sewing area! I bought some
>navy blue almost gauze yesterday. It looks like a misprint, as you can
>see the faintest shadows of some flowers. I hope they show up a bit in
>the sunshine. It's for a summer overdress (@1600), with a row of narrow
>needle lace around the neckline. I also got some 1/2 yard cuts of misc
>stuff off the flat fold remnant (is that redundant?) table for making
>cushion covers.

Here, near San Francisco, the sun is streaming in the windows, and I'm 
facing the un-fun prospect of having to go to a library to do some research 
for my next living history character.  I see blue sky and fluffy little 
clouds, at about 12:15 in the afternoon.


         CarolynKayta Barrows
dollmaker, fibre artist, textillian
           www.FunStuft.com

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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Carolyn Kayta Barrows <kayta@frys.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: Fun question
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>The perfect store:
>
>A cross between:
>
>Stone Mountain & Daughter
>Dharma Trading Company
>AlterYears
>Lacis
>Skein Lane (a yarn shop)
>Needle in a Haystack
>
>with a professional, knowledgeable staff and a tea
>shop so I can get a "cuppa." After all, this much
>shopping is hard work! 8-)

Oh yeah - we forgot about the great cappuccino place next door and the 
yummy-but-cheap restaurant the other side of it, and the electronics store 
and the well-stocked bookstore just down from that.


         CarolynKayta Barrows
dollmaker, fibre artist, textillian
           www.FunStuft.com

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From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" <drewscph@post12.tele.dk>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
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	<4.3.1.2.20030405122125.04f206a0@mail.frys.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: Fun question
Date: Sat, 5 Apr 2003 22:30:33 +0200
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Hello
Bjarne here
Leif og Bjarne Drews
www.my-drewscostumes.dk

http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/
----- Original Message -----
From: "Carolyn Kayta Barrows" <kayta@frys.com>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Saturday, April 05, 2003 10:24 PM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: Fun question


>
> >The perfect store:
> >
> >A cross between:
> >
> >Stone Mountain & Daughter
> >Dharma Trading Company
> >AlterYears
> >Lacis
> >Skein Lane (a yarn shop)
> >Needle in a Haystack
> >
> >with a professional, knowledgeable staff and a tea
> >shop so I can get a "cuppa." After all, this much
> >shopping is hard work! 8-)
>
> Oh yeah - we forgot about the great cappuccino place next door and the
> yummy-but-cheap restaurant the other side of it, and the electronics store
> and the well-stocked bookstore just down from that.
>
>
>          CarolynKayta Barrows
> dollmaker, fibre artist, textillian
>            www.FunStuft.com
>
>               //// \\\
>              ////-@@\\\
>             ((((   7 )))
>              (((  <> ))))
>                 )   ((((((
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>
> _______________________________________________
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Hello Karolyn!
Leif og Bjarne Drews
www.my-drewscostumes.dk

http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" <drewscph@post12.tele.dk>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Saturday, April 05, 2003 10:30 PM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: Fun question


> Hello
> Bjarne here
> Leif og Bjarne Drews
> www.my-drewscostumes.dk
>
> http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Carolyn Kayta Barrows" <kayta@frys.com>
> To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
> Sent: Saturday, April 05, 2003 10:24 PM
> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: Fun question
>
>
> >
> > >The perfect store:
> > >
> > >A cross between:
> > >
> > >Stone Mountain & Daughter
> > >Dharma Trading Company
> > >AlterYears
> > >Lacis
> > >Skein Lane (a yarn shop)
> > >Needle in a Haystack
> > >
> > >with a professional, knowledgeable staff and a tea
> > >shop so I can get a "cuppa." After all, this much
> > >shopping is hard work! 8-)
> >
> > Oh yeah - we forgot about the great cappuccino place next door and the
> > yummy-but-cheap restaurant the other side of it, and the electronics
store
> > and the well-stocked bookstore just down from that.
> >
> >
> >          CarolynKayta Barrows
> > dollmaker, fibre artist, textillian
> >            www.FunStuft.com
> >
> >               //// \\\
> >              ////-@@\\\
> >             ((((   7 )))
> >              (((  <> ))))
> >                 )   ((((((
> >            /----\   /---\))
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > h-costume mailing list
> > h-costume@mail.indra.com
> > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
>


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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Sat Apr  5 16:35:56 2003
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From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" <drewscph@post12.tele.dk>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
References: <200304051209.h35C9A1Q000995@net.indra.com>
	<4.3.1.2.20030405122125.04f206a0@mail.frys.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: Fun question
Date: Sat, 5 Apr 2003 22:36:35 +0200
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Please say hello to Bjarne from country Denmark.
I tell you!!!!!!!!!!! -The mask of Bjarne is incredible good,
Almost like the mask of Redmond Berry  esquire!!!

Leif og Bjarne Drews
www.my-drewscostumes.dk

http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/
----- Original Message -----
From: "Carolyn Kayta Barrows" <kayta@frys.com>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Saturday, April 05, 2003 10:24 PM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: Fun question


>
> >The perfect store:
> >
> >A cross between:
> >
> >Stone Mountain & Daughter
> >Dharma Trading Company
> >AlterYears
> >Lacis
> >Skein Lane (a yarn shop)
> >Needle in a Haystack
> >
> >with a professional, knowledgeable staff and a tea
> >shop so I can get a "cuppa." After all, this much
> >shopping is hard work! 8-)
>
> Oh yeah - we forgot about the great cappuccino place next door and the
> yummy-but-cheap restaurant the other side of it, and the electronics store
> and the well-stocked bookstore just down from that.
>
>
>          CarolynKayta Barrows
> dollmaker, fibre artist, textillian
>            www.FunStuft.com
>
>               //// \\\
>              ////-@@\\\
>             ((((   7 )))
>              (((  <> ))))
>                 )   ((((((
>            /----\   /---\))
>
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
>


_______________________________________________
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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Sat Apr  5 16:41:29 2003
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From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" <drewscph@post12.tele.dk>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
References: <002001c2fafb$2accdf00$675183d1@rmitchellras>
	<4.3.1.2.20030403133841.00dd4930@mail.frys.com>
	<03ab01c2fa60$ebfe6f40$190f8ea7@herselftifhj9g>
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	<002001c2fafb$2accdf00$675183d1@rmitchellras>
	<4.3.1.2.20030405115354.04f21de0@mail.frys.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Endangered buying & selling
Date: Sat, 5 Apr 2003 22:43:20 +0200
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Leif og Bjarne Drews
www.my-drewscostumes.dk

http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/
----- Original Message -----
From: "Carolyn Kayta Barrows" <kayta@frys.com>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Saturday, April 05, 2003 10:14 PM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Endangered buying & selling


>
> >>A couple of years ago I ordered from my feather supplier an extra full
boa
> >>for my Merlin costume.  The piece that came was stunning! I wondered at
the
> >>time if it might be 'starling' for these reasons...black with lots of
green
> >>and purple lights. It seemed at the time that it would have taken a LOT
of
> >>rooster plumage of those colors.
> >
> >Not likely to be starlings for a feather boa unless it was for a Barbie
> >doll. :)  They're tiny little things.  You're probably right that it was
> >rooster plumage, given those colors.
>
> Starlings are about the size of a robin.  They're smaller than a pigeon
and
> larger than a sparrow.  The male is a glossy iridescent black, while the
> female is a dull brownish black.
>
> Meanwhile, roosters don't produce eggs for the egg rancher, and I'm
> guessing there's a 50/50 chance that any fertile egg will produce a male
> bird.  If so, these extra birds will certainly end up as meat products and
> feather products.
>
>          CarolynKayta Barrows
> dollmaker, fibre artist, textillian
>            www.FunStuft.com
>
>               //// \\\
>              ////-@@\\\
>             ((((   7 )))
>              (((  <> ))))
>                 )   ((((((
>            /----\   /---\))
>
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
>


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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Sat Apr  5 16:49:32 2003
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Date: Sat, 05 Apr 2003 12:50:58 -0800
From: Cecilia <pyrfectpup@earthlink.net>
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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Silky Tassel Material?
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Margo Anderson wrote:

> My new feather boa just arrived!  This is for my 1920's Queen Latifahesque
> gown, for the Saturday Night social at Costume Con.
>
> Unfortunately, at 6 feet long, it seems a bit short for my sumptuous
> proportions.  I've seen, in a book from the period, a feather boa with long
> (12"+) silk tassels on both ends, and I'd like to add some to mine.  Can
> anyone suggest a source for thread or cord to make them ?  I'm running a
> bit tight on both cash and time, so I'd prefer a non mail order solution,
> and a reasonable substitute for silk is fine.  Do yarn shops have anything
> that would work?  Any other suggestions?

I've seen tassels made from embroidery floss. The advantage with embroidery
floss is the colors available.


--
Cecilia
knitting a new paradigm in southern California
pyrfectpup@earthlink.net
http://home.earthlink.net/~pyrfectpup/


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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Sat Apr  5 17:17:11 2003
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From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" <drewscph@post12.tele.dk>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
References: 
	<002001c2fafb$2accdf00$675183d1@rmitchellras><4.3.1.2.20030403133841.00dd4930@mail.frys.com><03ab01c2fa60$ebfe6f40$190f8ea7@herselftifhj9g><p05100303bab37f68d5e3@[136.152.196.253]><002001c2fafb$2accdf00$675183d1@rmitchellras><4.3.1.2.20030405115354.04f21de0@mail.frys.com>
	<009c01c2fbb3$feafb140$4096fea9@CPQ21932199711>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Endangered buying & selling
Date: Sat, 5 Apr 2003 23:19:03 +0200
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Leif og Bjarne Drews
www.my-drewscostumes.dk

http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" <drewscph@post12.tele.dk>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Saturday, April 05, 2003 10:43 PM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Endangered buying & selling


>
> Leif og Bjarne Drews
> www.my-drewscostumes.dk
>
> http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Carolyn Kayta Barrows" <kayta@frys.com>
> To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
> Sent: Saturday, April 05, 2003 10:14 PM
> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Endangered buying & selling
>
>
> >
> > >>A couple of years ago I ordered from my feather supplier an extra full
> boa
> > >>for my Merlin costume.  The piece that came was stunning! I wondered
at
> the
> > >>time if it might be 'starling' for these reasons...black with lots of
> green
> > >>and purple lights. It seemed at the time that it would have taken a
LOT
> of
> > >>rooster plumage of those colors.
> > >
> > >Not likely to be starlings for a feather boa unless it was for a Barbie
> > >doll. :)  They're tiny little things.  You're probably right that it
was
> > >rooster plumage, given those colors.
> >
> > Starlings are about the size of a robin.  They're smaller than a pigeon
> and
> > larger than a sparrow.  The male is a glossy iridescent black, while the
> > female is a dull brownish black.
> >
> > Meanwhile, roosters don't produce eggs for the egg rancher, and I'm
> > guessing there's a 50/50 chance that any fertile egg will produce a male
> > bird.  If so, these extra birds will certainly end up as meat products
and
> > feather products.
> >
> >          CarolynKayta Barrows
> > dollmaker, fibre artist, textillian
> >            www.FunStuft.com
> >
> >               //// \\\
> >              ////-@@\\\
> >             ((((   7 )))
> >              (((  <> ))))
> >                 )   ((((((
> >            /----\   /---\))
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > h-costume mailing list
> > h-costume@mail.indra.com
> > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume


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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: Fun question
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The perfect fabric store in my fantasies would have fabric organized by 
color/shade, and fiber content, that way coordinates would be easy to find.  
The bolts on re-orderable fabric would have more bolts behind the first one.  
There would be a section of non-upholstery brocades, and a selection of 
NATURAL FABRIC brocades...unlike anything I can find, even using the 
Internet!  Of course, there would be a nice big remnant section, and a 
"mis-loomed" and "mis-knit" section, for muslins and art-wear, at cheap 
prices.  Can you imagine muslining a corset in like...screwy calico?  There 
would also be a Silk-Connection like section, with dyeable silks and other 
fabrics.  The employees would know how to sew, dye, and at least one would 
know stuff about costuming.  Also, it would be five miles from my house.
Oh, and it would have a tea/coffee shop in the corner, with scones, cookies, 
and biscotti laid out on nice plates.  
And yeah...if I could get something custom-loomed at reasonable prices, THAT 
would be really great too!

Christine


In a message dated 4/5/03 12:22:46 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
dme_maud@pacbell.net writes:

> A cross between:
> 
> Stone Mountain &Daughter
> Dharma Trading Company
> AlterYears
> Lacis
> Skein Lane (a yarn shop)
> Needle in a Haystack
> 
> with a professional, knowledgeable staff and a tea
> shop so I can get a "cuppa." After all, this much
> shopping is hard work! 8-)
> 

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Here in Missoula, MT, we've been getting mixed rain and snow (actually
pretty typical around here for March and early April).  And stuff that's
some weird cross between corn snow (like little, tiny styrofoam pellets)
and hail.  It's overcast, gloomy, and cold--a perfect day to stay in and
do "chores," although I really do need to get the leaves off the lawn,
such as it is <g>.
So...(OCC) I'm finishing up my 12th row of embroidery for my camicia
(only 8 more to go! wa-hoo!), working on taxes, and planning to go
shopping in a bit for some ingredients for a chicken curry, and maybe
swinging by our JoAnn's to see if they have any interesting linen (which
they occasionally do), since I need some thread anyways.....
And thanks for the reminder, Marged...I'd forgotten I wanted to look for
a remnant to recover a couch pillow.....
--Sue, thinking it might also be a good day to make
brownies...mmmmm.....

Mary Denise Smith wrote:
> 
> Here in Colorado Springs we got an inch of snow overnight. I haven't
> heard a forecast for today beyond "wet, dreary and cold".
> 
> A good day to stay inside and organize the sewing area! I bought some
> navy blue almost gauze yesterday. It looks like a misprint, as you can
> see the faintest shadows of some flowers. I hope they show up a bit in
> the sunshine. It's for a summer overdress (@1600), with a row of narrow
> needle lace around the neckline. I also got some 1/2 yard cuts of misc
> stuff off the flat fold remnant (is that redundant?) table for making
> cushion covers.
> 
> MD/Marged
>
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I've heard that, too.  Gail, if you've got a video store in your area
that caters to Christian/religious families, you might check them out.
--sue

Linda Rice wrote:
> 
> Actually, I heard on the news last week that there is a company that
> takes regular movies and re-edits them to remove the violence, sex, etc
> and then sells the finished product as suitable for all ages. IIRC they
> have at least the knowledge if not the approval of the movie companies
> to do this. The story said that some movies can't be done, because once
> all the sex and violence are removed there is not enough left to hold a
> movie together!
> 
> Linda
> 
> -----Original Message-----
>  [h-cost] Re: OT, movies
> 
> gailscott@eos.net writes:
> 
> > PS: I wish that DVDs would come with rated G or PG versions of movies.
> I bet
> > a lot of parents would buy them.
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Oh, yeah, but I'd add some natural fiber resources (like our local shop,
Joseph's Coat), and I'd throw in some other stores I'm more familiar
with--Lacemaker, FireMountain, and Hedgehog Handiworks.
Plus, of course, they'd be fully webbed, for online purchases.  And
they'd have a research library and computers available (maybe in a
corner near the tea shop? which would, of *course* sell scones with real
clotted cream?)
--Sue, who'd also like to add (in the same "shopping center") a day spa,
for foot massages and such after shopping....<g>

Jacobson Dawn wrote:
> 
> The perfect store:
> 
> A cross between:
> 
> Stone Mountain & Daughter
> Dharma Trading Company
> AlterYears
> Lacis
> Skein Lane (a yarn shop)
> Needle in a Haystack
> 
> with a professional, knowledgeable staff and a tea
> shop so I can get a "cuppa." After all, this much
> shopping is hard work! 8-)
> 
> Dawn
> 
> =====
> Dawn Jacobson
> Vallejo, CA, USA
> 
> Learn the rules well, so you can break them properly.
> --Dalai Lama
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: Fun question
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and Mendels' funky fabrics, too.  and some Latex that doesn't
have to be imported from the UK.  And the quality of wool
and cashmere that Felsen Fabrics used to sell - at the same cheap
price.


On Saturday, April 5, 2003, at 12:24 PM, Carolyn Kayta Barrows wrote:

>
>> The perfect store:
>>
>> A cross between:
>>
>> Stone Mountain & Daughter
>> Dharma Trading Company
>> AlterYears
>> Lacis
>> Skein Lane (a yarn shop)
>> Needle in a Haystack
>>
>> with a professional, knowledgeable staff and a tea
>> shop so I can get a "cuppa." After all, this much
>> shopping is hard work! 8-)
>
> Oh yeah - we forgot about the great cappuccino place next door and the 
> yummy-but-cheap restaurant the other side of it, and the electronics 
> store and the well-stocked bookstore just down from that.
>
>
>         CarolynKayta Barrows
> dollmaker, fibre artist, textillian
>           www.FunStuft.com
>
>              //// \\\
>             ////-@@\\\
>            ((((   7 )))
>             (((  <> ))))
>                )   ((((((
>           /----\   /---\))
>
> _______________________________________________
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How about a nice selection of fabric paints and dyes ,
leather and leatherworking stuff, jewelry findings,
beads, etc...! Oh, and did I mention the chocolate
section? :-)

=====
An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind.  Gandhi

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I second the chocolate section!
Obligatory costume content: I get a three day break from making play 
costumes, yay!  Of course, I don't get to work on my own costumes, either :(

Christine


In a message dated 4/5/03 5:50:34 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
cyncorley@yahoo.com writes:

> Oh, and did I mention the chocolate
> section? :-)

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From: Kimiko Small <kimiko@kimiko1.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Surcoat fabric
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At 08:08 PM 4/5/2003 +0200, you wrote:
>Hi,
>
>I am making mine from wool.
>But I don't know if this is apropriate for nobels.
>Maby my website can be of little help.
>http://home.kabelfoon.nl/~triade/Projects/Loosegown.html
>Witin two weeks I wil have time to work on my gown again :-) :-) .
>
>Greetings,
>        Deredere

Hi Deredere,

Thanks for the link and your info. Looks like we both have the same idea (I 
swear I only thought of it when I looked at the book.)

I like what you have done. It looks very elegant with the red lining 
showing through. The wool I am using is blue-greenish, with a subtle plaid 
of colors (nothing official, just a plaid design), so I am not positive 
what would be a good contrast to it for a lining. I love the lace you are 
using, too. Nothing like that in my neck of the world.

I hope to get mine finished in two weeks time (or less would be ideal). But 
I want to see what you do with yours when you are finished.

Kimiko


Kimiko Small
Costumer, Fiber Artist, Web Designer, Wife and Mother
kimiko@kimiko1.com; http://www.kimiko1.com

Graphic Intern at Costume Gallery
http://www.costumegallery.com

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Date: Sat, 05 Apr 2003 15:17:53 -0800
From: Kimiko Small <kimiko@kimiko1.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Surcoat fabric
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At 01:21 PM 4/5/2003 -0500, you wrote:
>Everybody wears wool---it's one of the biggest exports England has.  Think 
>about your own wardrobe:  you probably have some really dressy clothes 
>(velvet), but most of your clothes aren't dressy (wool).  Or maybe you 
>have some incredibly beautiful, finely woven wool that you want to use as 
>a "best" dress.
>
>
>
>Nancy Kiel


Thanks Nancy for the perspective on the use of wool. Just because portaits 
were done in the finest of clothes, doesn't mean the fine wool wasn't worn 
at court, or so I hope.

Kimiko



Kimiko Small
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kimiko@kimiko1.com; http://www.kimiko1.com

Graphic Intern at Costume Gallery
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Subject: [h-cost] Hello Bjarne
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Bjarne - 
If you are trying to send photos they aren't coming through.


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" <drewscph@post12.tele.dk>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Saturday, April 05, 2003 12:36 PM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: Fun question


> Please say hello to Bjarne from country Denmark.
> I tell you!!!!!!!!!!! -The mask of Bjarne is incredible good,
> Almost like the mask of Redmond Berry  esquire!!!
> 


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FYI - The English sumptuary laws of both 13 Feb 1588 and 1597 deal with
imported wool and limit it's use to male nobles and their children.  The use
of imported wool for women is not addressed, nor is domestic wool.  I don't
know enough about the wool trade to know if foreign wool was of a better
quality and thus reserved for the upper class or if for economic reasons
lower orders where not to wear the imported cloth irregardless of its
quality.

1588 - "First, it is ordered that no man under the degree of a marquis,
earl, and their children, or under the degree of baron, unless he be a
knight of the Order of the Garter, shall wear in any part of his apparel any
wool cloth made out of any of the Queen's majesty's dominions, except in
bonnets only."

1597 - "None shall wear in his apparel cloth of gold or silver tissued, silk
of color purple under the degree of an earl, except Knights of the Garter in
their purple mantles only; Cloth of gold or silver, tinseled satin, silk or
cloth mixed or embroidered with pearl, gold, or silver, wool cloth made out
of the realm, under the degree of a baron, except Knights of the Garter,
Privy Councilors to the Queen's majesty;"

These quotes come from "Tudor Royal Proclamations" a three volume set
covering 1485 to 1603, edited by P. L. Hughes and J. F. Larkin.  Most of the
other proclamations regarding wool concern manufacturing standards.  Seems
some unscrupulous merchants were weaving bolts of fabric with high quality
wool on the end of the bolts where visible and using coarser yards for the
middle and end which was causing England's reputation to be ruined overseas.

Just a few more facts to have at hand in the fabric selection dilemma.

Good luck with your garment!

Lisa


----- Original Message -----
From: "Kimiko Small" <kimiko@kimiko1.com>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Saturday, April 05, 2003 3:16 PM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Surcoat fabric


> At 08:08 PM 4/5/2003 +0200, you wrote:
> >Hi,
> >
> >I am making mine from wool.
> >But I don't know if this is apropriate for nobels.
> >Maby my website can be of little help.
> >http://home.kabelfoon.nl/~triade/Projects/Loosegown.html
> >Witin two weeks I wil have time to work on my gown again :-) :-) .
> >
> >Greetings,
> >        Deredere
>
> Hi Deredere,
>
> Thanks for the link and your info. Looks like we both have the same idea
(I
> swear I only thought of it when I looked at the book.)
>
> I like what you have done. It looks very elegant with the red lining
> showing through. The wool I am using is blue-greenish, with a subtle plaid
> of colors (nothing official, just a plaid design), so I am not positive
> what would be a good contrast to it for a lining. I love the lace you are
> using, too. Nothing like that in my neck of the world.
>
> I hope to get mine finished in two weeks time (or less would be ideal).
But
> I want to see what you do with yours when you are finished.
>
> Kimiko
>
>
> Kimiko Small
> Costumer, Fiber Artist, Web Designer, Wife and Mother
> kimiko@kimiko1.com; http://www.kimiko1.com
>
> Graphic Intern at Costume Gallery
> http://www.costumegallery.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume


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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: Fun question
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> Oh, yeah, but I'd add some natural fiber resources (like our local shop,
> Joseph's Coat), and I'd throw in some other stores I'm more familiar
> with--Lacemaker, FireMountain, and Hedgehog Handiworks.
> Plus, of course, they'd be fully webbed, for online purchases.

It seems to me that there are plenty of places to order online or don't
you guys agree?

Diana


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There are lots of places for lots of things online, but this, being the
perfect store, would be all in one place! So a person wouldn't have to
remember which site it was that occasionally had wool, or......
--sue

dch@inreach.com wrote:
> 
> > Oh, yeah, but I'd add some natural fiber resources (like our local shop,
> > Joseph's Coat), and I'd throw in some other stores I'm more familiar
> > with--Lacemaker, FireMountain, and Hedgehog Handiworks.
> > Plus, of course, they'd be fully webbed, for online purchases.
> 
> It seems to me that there are plenty of places to order online or don't
> you guys agree?
> 
> Diana
>
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: OT, movies
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I've heard, and since I don't remember where I can't even guess if it is
*actually* true, that blockbuster had semi-edited editions that would be
more suitable for families to watch. Not totally PG-ing and R-rated film
but perhaps toning down the worst bits. But since I rarely rent movies I
can't say if I've noticed any difference.

<costuming content>

I just bought a copy of Janet Arnold's "Patterns of Fashion: The cut and
construction of clothes for men and women c1560-1620" and Barnes and
Nobles. <happy dance>.

Onaree

Gail & Scott Finke wrote:

> PS: I wish that DVDs would come with rated G or PG versions of movies. I bet
> a lot of parents would buy them.
> 

-- 
Proud list mom of  Irish Crochet Lovers
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Irish_Crochet_Lovers/
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Date: Sat, 05 Apr 2003 20:23:37 -0800
From: Kimiko Small <kimiko@kimiko1.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Surcoat fabric-Statues and Orders for Apparel
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Hi Lisa,

Ooooh, thank you very much for the info. I was wondering what I could do 
for my husband's outfit, which would be in black velvet with red damask 
lining/slashing. But I wanted gold or silver somewhere as well, and some 
beading & pearls for my kirtle. Now I know what I can and can't do 
depending on my station. That still is to be ironed out with specific 
characters, but now I know what is possible.

At 05:27 PM 4/5/2003 -0800, you wrote:
 > 1597 - "None shall wear in his apparel cloth of gold or silver tissued, silk
 > of color purple under the degree of an earl, except Knights of the Garter in
 > their purple mantles only; Cloth of gold or silver, tinseled satin, silk or
 > cloth mixed or embroidered with pearl, gold, or silver, wool cloth made out
 > of the realm, under the degree of a baron, except Knights of the Garter,
 > Privy Councilors to the Queen's majesty;"

This one is a bit confusing. The cloth of gold or silver is repeated twice. 
The "tissued" first under the degree of earl. Then again, but not noted as 
tissued, under the degree of baron. This makes me wonder what the 
difference was? And what is "tissued" anyway?

Kimiko


Kimiko Small
Costumer, Fiber Artist, Web Designer, Wife and Mother
kimiko@kimiko1.com; http://www.kimiko1.com

Graphic Intern at Costume Gallery
http://www.costumegallery.com

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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: OT, movies
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> > From: "Linda Rice" <vmaa2@cox.net>
> > Actually, I heard on the news last week that there is a company that
> > takes regular movies and re-edits them to remove the violence, sex, etc
> > and then sells the finished product as suitable for all ages. IIRC they
> > have at least the knowledge if not the approval of the movie companies
> > to do this. The story said that some movies can't be done, because once
> > all the sex and violence are removed there is not enough left to hold a
> > movie together!
>From: "Lisa Sinervo" <lisa-list@threadneedlest.com>
> A video store in Utah has been doing that for years for their conservative
> clientele.  "Who", the sister magazine of "People" in Australia ran an
> article of what the movies theoretically would end up like after the
> editing.  Can't remember them all, but "The Full Monty" was a story about
> some unemployed English factory workers that stayed unemployed etc....

Titanic was the biggest one concerned and it was the sex seen in the car
that was removed as well as Rose giving the Valet the finger in the
elevator.

And yes as Heather said they're currently being sued for breech of
copyright. The films have been edited without the knowledge or consent of
the copywrite owner (or even the director for that matter).

And while it would be easy enough for you to purchase a video copy of the
film and have some-one edit your personal copy, the pre-editing and selling
of these tapes is what causes them to be illegal.

Paul
--
It's easier to ask forgiveness than to get permission. - W. Slovotsky
http://members.optushome.com.au/velvetspyder
Costumier & Reprobate

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Date: Sun, 06 Apr 2003 01:09:56 -0600
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Danielle Nunn-Weinberg <dannw@attbi.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Fun question
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Interesting question.  : )  Beside all you listed I would have to add 
leather gloves of all sizes (some with extra long fingers) for all 
historical periods, etc...  It would also have the massive selection of 
silk covered parasols I had a dream about...  Oh and shoes for all periods 
in all sizes!

As for fabrics - reasonably priced authentic (as possible) reproductions 
for all time periods...

Cheers,
Danielle

At 02:54 PM 4/4/2003 -0800, you wrote:
>Hello everyone!
>
>I am coming back to this list after a long absence and it is great to join
>you all again!
>
>And I thought of a fun question for everyone to spark some discussion:
>
>If you were to dream up the perfect fabric & accessories store, what would
>it have?
>
>For me, I would want great textured fabrics, all kinds of silk,  lovely
>striped fabrics for a Victorian day dress, corset supplies (so I wouldn't
>have to mail order), hoop skirts, fashion & art books, and nice quality
>trims (including silk ribbon and cotton grosgrain)
>
>Cheers,
>
>Diana

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	Sun, 06 Apr 2003 11:47:32 BST
Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2003 11:47:32 +0100 (BST)
From: =?iso-8859-1?q?N=20Kipar?= <nicolas_fouquet@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: supportasse photos, was Re: [h-cost] Queen Anne Dress
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
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 --- Bjarne og Leif Drews <drewscph@post12.tele.dk> wrote: > Come on!
> My question was if there were a collar in behind of the lace colar. You say
> yes, it is a supportasse. And i say OK!
> I have lots of pictures of suppportasses, so dont worry.

Well, that's good then.

Nicole

=====
"Brains, not Bombs"
http://www.stopthewar.org.uk/

Nicole Kipar M.A.
URL: http://www.kipar.org/
Email: nicole@kipar.org

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> > It seems to me that there are plenty of places to order online or don't
> > you guys agree?
> >
> > Diana


There are--but if you don't use credit cards or checks, it's a bit of a
hassle.

And there's the touchy-feely aspect of fabric-buying to consider too.

Dianne

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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Sun Apr  6 12:13:54 2003
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	Sun, 06 Apr 2003 08:13:51 PDT
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From: Tania Gruning <tania_gr17@yahoo.com>
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Subject: [h-cost] Thank you and Christian the fourth of Denmark.
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Thank you all for your advice regarding the shift/chemise/smock, it was all really helpfull.

I was at a fleamarket this weekend and scored a museum catalogue about the Christian the fourth exhibits in 1988. In there is a full color portrait of Christian as a boy. Painted by Hans Knieber in about 1582-84. The portrait shows gorgous dark silk doublet with a modest skirt. The silk is woven or embroidered with a brocade pattern in gold. The pattern is fleur-de-lys and a latticework that looks like the edge of a ruff. He also wears a ruff around his neck and a modest pair at his cuffs. The buttons are gold, I think and sleeves are reasonably full and sewn directly to the doublet. There is no shoulder treatment. I cannot see what kind of trousers he is wearing as the portrait ends at midthigh, but it does not look like pluderhosen as I have seen PoF Svante and Niels Sture.

Of jewelry he wears three gold chains around his neck, the lowest one contain a gold medaillon with a portrait of his father? and a gold belt.

His hair is exstremely close cut or slicked back really tight.

If people are interested I could scan the image and put it up somewhere.

Tania



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>  > What are you all doing, it is so quiet today!!!!

I'm at a Celtic Studies conference -- here at my home university, but 
four solid days of papers and presentations.  I gave my paper on 
Thursday and may have managed to convince the Celtic Studies 
community to change how we've been translating one particular 
Medieval Welsh phrase for the last century.  A minor personal triumph.

ObCostume: Thursday night we got to see the international debut of an 
animated film version of the Mabinogi.  Somewhat intriguingly, if 
bafflingly, they had decided to dress all the early-medieval Welsh 
women in Viking apron-dresses.

Heather
-- 
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hrjones@socrates.berkeley.edu
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From: "Saragrace Knauf" <saragrace@earthlink.net>
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Subject: RE: [h-cost] Thank you and Christian the fourth of Denmark.
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I'd be interested in the picture-It doesn't sound familiar!  Thanks!

Sg



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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Queen Anne Dress
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        Better late than never.  I was at an SCA event all day yesterday
and didn't get to the computer until this morning.  I am glad we didn't
have ice and snow,  but could have use a bit cooler temperatures.

        There seems to be a consensus of opinion that the collar is held
up by a supportasse.  Margo has a pattern for one in her Elizabethan
Women's Accessories.  I do love Margo's patterns!!!!!

Lalah
Never give up, Never surrender
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From: "Lisa Sinervo" <lisa-list@threadneedlest.com>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Surcoat fabric-Statues and Orders for Apparel
Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2003 10:37:51 -0700
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Note-this long email contains definitions for various types of cloth of gold
and the 1597 English Statue and Proclamations of Apparel


Kimiko Small wrote:

> This one is a bit confusing. The cloth of gold or silver is repeated
twice.
> The "tissued" first under the degree of earl. Then again, but not noted as
> tissued, under the degree of baron. This makes me wonder what the
> difference was? And what is "tissued" anyway?
>
Marie Linthicum in "Costume in the Drama of Shakespeare and his
Contemporaries" discusses three types fabric "Baudkin/Bodkin", "Tinsel" and
"Tissue" all being varieties of cloth of gold or silver.  She also has a
describtion for "Tabine" which I'll include which is a variation of "Cloth
of Tissue"

BAUDKIN OR BODKIN - "Cloth of bodkin or tissue must be embroidered
                                              As if no face were fair that
were not powdered."

"Bagdad, famous for weaving damasked and brocaded cloths of gold, originated
the 'raised work' upon cloth of gold or tissue, known as bodkin work,
described in Philaster as 'branched cloth of bodkin' (v. i. 2 5,2). It was,
seem ingly, an ancient fabric. Gay notes an allusion to it in 1197, and it
is mentioned in the Calendar of Close Rolls in 1232. It was characterized by
raised designs of animals, plants, branches, and geometric figures, and made
in many colours. azure, blue, perse, purple, green, vermi lion, murrey, &c.
Until the fourteenth century bodkin was a product made almost exclusively in
Bagdad, Damascus, Cyprus, and Palermo; but during that century its
manufacture extended to France, and later to England. Bodkin work was then
not limited to silk material. 'Baudequin de laine', 'baudekyn de serico
mixto', 'baudekin of cotton StUff' appear in accounts of subsequent
centuries. It is therefore difficult to determine whether allusions to
bodkin indicate the original handsome silk material or an inferior cloth in
raised pattern; but references in The Fatal Dowry, The City Madam, and
Philaster are to the cloth of gold."

TABINE - "Cloth-of-tissue or tabine
                   That like beaten gold will shine
                   In your amorous ladies' eyne"

"sang George Cressingham in an apprentice's 'What do you lack?' style. His
description is almost sufficient, for the shine was the chief attraction of
tabine. This material,' used by Henry VII in 14871 for carriage awnings, was
a thick silk of taffeta weave with a slight nap, calendered by passing in
folds under a hot cylinder, which produced an uneven or moire effect on the
surface of the material, causing portions to reflect a different light from
that of the remainder, thus giving the whole a suggestion of changeable
colour which it did not have. Some tabine was enriched by threads of gold or
silver. It was a Norwich product by 1602.  It was indeed much desired by
ladies. Queen Elizabeth's New Year gifts, 1599- 1600, included many articles
of tabine. Thirty-one shillings a yard was paid for sixteen yards of 'white
fring)red Tabine' bought by Sir Nicholas Bacon in 1591, probably destined
for one of the Bacon family. Although that was unusually expensive, its
price ranged from ten to twenty shillings a yard."

TINSEL
"Tinsel was a silk interwoven with gold or silver thread like brocatel. In
1244 a standard was ordered by Henry II for the Church of St. Peter,
Westminster. It was to be of 'rubeo samitto qui ubique sit auro
extencellatus', a description which probably refers to tinsel which
glistened like sparkles of fire. .'

Tynsell sateri' was purchased for Elizabeth of York, 1502 and in 1515 Sir
Christopher Garneys, writing to Henry VIII, spoke of the Queen of Scotland's
inordinate love of clothes, especially her interest in a gown of 'tynsen'.,
Daughter of Henry VII, s love of rich materials! Queen Elizabeth possessed
many garments of tinsel in silver and colours,  and a reader of her wardrobe
accounts realizes that Shakespeare probably found at Court his inspiration
for the Duchess of Milan's gown 'that they praise so' vividly described as
of 'cloth of gold, and cuts', laced with silver, set with pearl, and worn
over bluish tinsel a beautiful combination of colours. Marston had in mind a
sumptuous costume when he dressed the merchant of What You Will in a black
beaver hat with ash-coloured band, and a cloth of silk jerkin with sleeves
of white satin cut on tinsel."

TISSUE -
"When Sir Simon de Montacute was buried in 1317, King Edward II ordered two
pieces of gold and silk tissue to he laid upon his body. This rich fabric,
much used for altar cloths and church vestments Was made of precious metals,
or of these metals and silk, and was invented, according to Pliny, by
Alexander.
It was a favourite material of royalty, occurring in the wardrobe accounts
of all sovereigns from Edward 11 to Charles 11. Costume accounts of Henry
VIII, his wives, and Court ladies, are full of references to it.. white,
russet, silver, &c.8 Galleries were hung with it, and it was used in
abundance at the coronation of Anne Boleyn. It was always carefully
distinguished from the plain weave of cloth of gold, for both warp and woof
of tissue were composed of twisted threads. In the royal wardrobe, 1533, are
purple cloth of golde playne', 'purple cloth of golde with workes', i.e.
embroidered, 'white cloth of gold rased with silver tissue', i.e. a brocaded
pattern of tissue weave in silver on a ground of plain weave white silk and
gold, 'russet cloth of gold tissue rased with gold'.'
Naturally, references to it were made on the stage, for it was synonymous
with wealth. Cleopatra's pavilion was of tissue; Laverdure frets for his
tissue suit; Noval's tailor has made him look like an angel in a 'cloth of
tissue doublet'., and Lord Cressingham spends fifteen hundred pounds for
tissue, cloth of gold, velvets and silks for his wedding a conservative sum,
with tissue at two pounds a yard; and there are briefer references to it in
The City Madam, The Maid of Honour, and Unnatural Combat, New Way to Pay Old
Debts, White Devil."




As for the appropriatness of wool for court dress, my knowledge is a
beginner's.  However, it does appear from my initial readings that Kersey,
which was a fine lightweight domestic wool was used by nobility (under what
circumstances??) in the 15th century and its use continued into the 16th
century but declined at the end of the period, being replaced in popularity
by a range of "new draperies" often woven by foreigners moving into England.
The new draperies were often mixed fibres, say, a combination of silk and
wool.  Personally, I would still use a fine wool for a court garment in
England.

And just to overwhelm you this morining - (this research is as valueable to
me as it is to you)  I've included the whole 1597 statue of apparel.  I've
OCR'd it rom "Tudor Royal Proclamations" edited by P.L. Hughes and J.F.
Larkin  and have only briefly proofread it.



786. ENFORCING THE STATUES AND PROCLAMATIONS OF APPAREL

[Greenwich, 6 July 1597, 39 Elizabeth 11

Haffield 141/84 (CalAndar 7, 279): MS draft, corrected by Cecil; date of
schedule, 29 June. See HMC 5, 6th R., 29o. STC 8257, Folger 379: printed by
deputies of C. Barker (London, xs97); date of schedule, under signet, as
above; schedule as below (Herbert 2, 108). UM 5651*13,014. Canterbury MS FIA
20(1596-97), 241: 4d. paid for setting up two proclamations 'for reformation
of apparel.' Steele 89o. Text (STC): Folger

WHEREAS the Queen's majesty, for avoiding of the great inconvenience that
hath grown and daily doth increase within this her realm by the inordinate
excess in apparel, bath in her princely wisdom and care for reformation
thereof by sundry former proclamations ' straightly charged and commanded
those in authority under her to see her laws provided in that behalf duly
executed.

Whereof notwithstanding, partly through their negligence and partly by the
manifest contempt and disobedience of the parties offending, no refor-
mation at all hath followed; her majesty, finding by experience that by
clemency (whercunto she is most inclinable so long as there is any hope of
redress) this increasing evil hath not been cured, hath thought fit to seek
to remedy the same by correction and severity to he used against both these
kinds of offenders in regard to the present difficulties of this time
wherein the decay and lack of hospitality appears in the better sort in all
countries, principally occasioned by the immeasurable charges and expenses
which they are put to in superfluous appareling their wives, children, and
families; the confusion also of degrees in all places being great where the
meanest are as richly appareled as their betters, and the pride that such
inferior per- sons take in their garments driving many for their maintenance
to robbing and stealing by the highway. And yet in her gracious disposition,
being willing to have that course of punishment to he the last mean of
reforma- tion, did in the end of this last term of the Holy Trinity in her
highness' Court of Star Chamber at an assembly of divers lords of her Privy
Council, and most of the judges being Justices of Assize, in the open
hearing of many justices of the peace of all the parts of the realm and of a
multitude of her majesty's subjects there present, by way of admonition
signify her princely determination to have (specially at this time) for many
urgent considerations this intolerable abuse and unmeasurable disorder
reformed. And albeit her highness knows how she might justly make great
profit as well by the exe- cutions of her laws standing in force for the
penalties already due as also against both the said kinds of offenders for
their manifest contempt against her majesty's said proclamations; yet her
majesty, not respecting her ad- vantages in these cases but seriously
intending the reformation of the abuses and the common good and benefit of
all her loving subjects by these most royal and gracious proceedings, hath
not only added by these presents such favorable tolerations and
qualifications to such points of the former laws now standing in force as by
alteration of time may seem in some part hard to be exactly observed, but
also hath commanded the due execution of those parts of those laws that be
most agreeable to this time and easy and necessary to he observed, without
charging either kind of the said offenders for any offense already past,
unless it he against such as shall hereafter offend or not observe the
special parts and branches of the laws now standing in force ' and articles
hereafter following, according to such toleration and moderation thereof as
is hereafter expressed and set down;

That is to say for men's apparel her majesty doth straightly charge and
command that.

None shall wear in his apparel cloth of gold or silver tissued, silk of
color purple under the degree of an earl, except Knights of the Garter in
their purple mantles only;

Cloth of gold or silver, tinseled satin, silk or cloth mixed or embroidered
with pearl, gold, or silver, wool cloth made out of  he realm, under the
degree of a baron, except Knights of the Garter, Privy Councilors to the
Queen's majesty;

Passement lace or other lace of gold or silver or mixed with gold and
silver, with gold and silk, with silver and silk; spurs, swords, rapiers,
daggers, skeans, woodknives, hangers, buckles, or studs of girdles gilt or
damasked with gold or silver, silvered, under the degree of a baron's son,
except gentlemen in ordinary office attending upon her majesty in her house
or chamber, such as have been employed in embassage to foreign princes, such
as may dispend Soo marks by the year for term of life in possession above
all charges, and knights for wearing only of spurs, swords, rapiers, and
daggers and those other things therewith ensuing, and likewise captains
being in her majesty's pay;

Velvet in gowns, cloaks, coats, or other uppermost garments, embroidery with
silk, netherstocks of silk, under the degree of a knight, except gentle- men
in ordinary office attending upon her majesty in her house or chamber, such
as have been employed in embassage to foreign princes, the son and heir
apparent of a knight, captains in her majesty's pay, and such as may dispend
£2oo by the year for term of life in possession above all charges;

Velvet in jerkins, hose, doublets; satin, damask, taffeta, grosgrain in
gowns, cloaks, coats, or other uppermost garments, under the degree of a
knight's eldest son, except gentlemen in ordinary office attending upon her
majesty in her house or chamber, such as have been employed in embassages to
foreign princes, and such as may dispend £100 by the year for term of life
in possession above all charges;

Satin, damask, grosgrain, taffeta in hose, doublet, under the degree of a
gentleman bearing arms, except gentlemen in ordinary office attending upon
her majesty in her house or chamber, such as have been employed in
embassages to foreign princes, and such as may dispend £20 by the year for
term of life in possession above all charges.

None shall have in their saddles, bridles, stirrups, trappings, harness,
foot- cloth, or other furniture of their horse any velvet, gilding,
damasking with gold or silver, silvering, studs, buckles, or other garniture
gilt, damasked with gold or silver, silvered, under the degree of a baron's
son, except knights and gentlemen in ordinary office attending upon her
majesty in her house or chamber, such as have been employed in embassages to
foreign princes, captains being in her majesty's pay, and such as may
dispend 5oo marks by the year for term of life in possession above all
charges.

None shall wear in their apparel any caps, hats, hatbands, caphands,
garters, boothose, silk netherstocks trimmed with gold, silver, or pearl,
enameled chains, buttons, aglets, except men of the degrees above mentioned,
the gentlemen attending upon the Queen's person in her highness' privy
chamber or in the office of cuphearer, carver, skewer, esquire for the body,
gentlemen ushers, or esquires of the stable;

Satin, damask, silk camlet, or taffeta in gown, coat, hose, or uppermost
garments; fur whereof the kind groweth not within the Queen's dominions
except foins, gray genets, and bodge, except the degrees and persons above
mentioned, and men that may dispend £ioo by the year and so valued in the
subsidy book;

Hat, bonnet, girdle, scabbards of swords, daggers, and etc., shoes, and
pantofies of velvet, except the degrees and persons above named, and the son
and heir apparent of a knight;

Silk, other than satin, damask, taffeta, camiet, in doublets, and sarcenet,
camict, or taffeta in facing of gowns and cloaks and in jackets, jerkins,
coifs, purses being not of color of scarlet, crimson, or blue, fur of foins,
gray genets, or other as the- like groweth not in the Queen's dominions,
except men of the degrees and persons above mentioned, son of a knight, or
son and heir apparent of a man of 300 mark land by year so valued in the
subsidy books, and men that may dispend £40 by the year so valued ut supra.

None shall wear spurs, swords, rapiers, daggers, skeans, woodknives, or
hangers, buckles of girdles gilt, silvered, or damasked, except knights and
barons' sons and other of higher degree or place, and gentlemen in ordinary
office attendant upon the Queen's majesty's person, which gentlemen so
attendant may wear all the premises saying gilt, silvered, or damasked
spurs.

None shall wear in their trappings or harness of their horse any studs,
buckles, or other garniture gilt, silvered, or damasked, nor stirrups gilt,
silvered, or damasked, nor any velvet in saddles or horse trappers, except
the persons next before mentioned and others of higher degrees, and gentle-
men in ordinary ut supra.
Note that the Lord Chancellor, Treasurer, President of the council, Privy
Seal may wear any velvet, satin, or other silks except purple, furs except
black genets.
These may wear as they have heretofore used, viz., any of the King's
Council, Justices of either Bench, Barons of the Exchequer, Master of the
Rolls, sergeants at law, Masters of the Chancery, of the Queen's council,
apprentices at law, physicians of the King, Queen, and Prince, mayors and
other head officers of any town corporate, Barons of the Five Ports, except
velvet, damask, satin of the color crimson, violet, purple, blue.

Note that her majesty's meaning is not by this order to prohibit in any
person the wearing of silk buttons, the facing of coats, cloaks, hats, and
caps, for comeliness only with taffeta, grosgrain, velvet, or other silk as
is commonly used.

For women's apparel her majesty doth straightly charge and command that:

None shall wear in her apparel cloth of gold or silver tissued, silk of
color purple, under the degree of a countess, except viscountesses to wear
cloth of gold or silver tissued in their kirtles only;

Cloth of gold, cloth of silver, tinseled satin, satins branched with silver
or gold, satins striped with silver or gold, taffetas branched with silver
or gold, taffetas with gold or silver grounds, tinstled taffetas tufted or
plain, tinseled cypresses, cypresses flourished with silver or gold, gold or
silver camicts, networks wrought with silver or gold, tabinet branched or
wrought with silver or gold, or any other silk or cloth mixed or embroidered
with pearl, gold, or silver, under the degree of a baroness, except the
wives of barons' eldest sons, and barons' daughters to wear cloth of gold
and silver only in their kirtles and linings of their garments, and knights'
wives to wear cloth of silver in their kirtles only;

Embroideries of gold or silver, passement lace or any other lace of gold or
silver or mixed with gold and silver, with gold and silk, with silver and
silk; cowls, attires, or other garnishings for the head trimmed with pearl,
under the degree of a baron's eldest son's wife, except barons' daughters,
the wives of knights of the Order of the Garter or of Privy Councilors, the
ladies and gentlewomen of the privy chamber, the maidens of honor, and such
whose husbands may dispend 5oo marks by the year for term of lift in
possession above all charges;

Velvet in gowns, cloaks, safeguards, or other uppermost garments; embroidery
with silk; netherstocks of silk, under the degree of a knight's wife, except
gentlewomen of the privy chamber, the maidens of honor, and such whose
husbands or themselves may dispend £200 by the year for term of life in
possession above all charges;

Velvet in kirtles, petticoats, satin in gowns, cloaks, safeguards, or other
uppermost garments, under the degree of a knight's eldest son's wife, except
gentlewomen in the privy chamber, the maidens of honor, gentle- women
attendant upon countesses, viscountesses, or ladies of the like or higher
degree, and such whose husbands or themselves may dispend £100 by the year
for term of life in possession above all charges;

Satin in kirtles; damask, tufted taffeta, plain taffeta, grosgrain in gowns,
under the degree of a gentleman's wife bearing arms, except gentlewomen
attendant upon knights' wives or ladies of the like or higher degree, and
such whose husbands or themselves may dispend £40 by the year for term of
life in possession above all charges.

Gentlewomen attendant upon duchesses, marquises, countesses may wear in
their liveries given by their mistresses as the wives of those that may
dispend £100 by the year and are so valued ut supra.

Gentlewomen attendant upon viscounts' wives and barons' wives may wear in
their liveries as the daughters of such as may dispend 300 marks by the
year, and as the wives of those that may dispend £40, valued ut supra.

None shall wear any velvet, tufted taffeta, satin, or any gold or silver in
their petticoats, except wives of barons, knights of the order, or
councilors; ladies and gentlewomen of the privy chamber and bed chamber; and
the maidens of honor;

Damask, taffeta, or other silk in their petticoats, except knights'
daughters and such as be matched with them in the former article, who shall
not wear a guard of any silk upon their petticoats;

Velvet, tufted taffeta, satin, nor any gold or silver in any cloak or safe-
guard, except the wives of barons, knights of the order, or councilors,
ladies and gentlewomen of the privy chamber and bed chamber, and the maidens
of honor, and all degrees above them;

Damask   ' taffeta, or other silk in any cloak or safeguard, except knights'
wives and the degrees and persons above mentioned.
No person under the degrees above specified shall wear any guard or welt of
silk upon any petticoat, cloak, or safeguard.

All which articles, clauses, and premises her majesty straightly com-
mandeth to he from henceforth exactly and duly observed in all points; and
the parties offending to be further punished as violators and con- temners
of her royal and princely commandment by this her highness' proclamation
expressed and published.

Lisa







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Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2003 18:54:15 +0100
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Jean Waddie <anne@montgomerie.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Surcoat fabric-Statues and Orders for Apparel
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Status: RO

I love this proclamation!  Don't you wish our politicians could be so 
elegant and concise - there's a whole interview's worth in there...

"Well, Jeremy, we have tried to work with the industry but 
self-regulation just isn't working....we don't want to punish 
law-abiding people, but this has significant effects on society, so much 
crime nowadays is committed by people just trying to maintain their lace 
habit....we know people will say it's just a money making scheme but I 
think the Queen has made clear that is not our intention...."


BTW, I think the laws against wearing foreign wool were definitely 
economic.  Wool was always the mainstay of the British economy - there's 
a reason the Chancellor sits on the Woolsack in Parliament, you know :-)

Jean


>
>WHEREAS the Queen's majesty, for avoiding of the great inconvenience that
>hath grown and daily doth increase within this her realm by the inordinate
>excess in apparel, bath in her princely wisdom and care for reformation
>thereof by sundry former proclamations ' straightly charged and commanded
>those in authority under her to see her laws provided in that behalf duly
>executed.
>
>Whereof notwithstanding, partly through their negligence and partly by the
>manifest contempt and disobedience of the parties offending, no refor-
>mation at all hath followed; her majesty, finding by experience that by
>clemency (whercunto she is most inclinable so long as there is any hope of
>redress) this increasing evil hath not been cured, hath thought fit to seek
>to remedy the same by correction and severity to he used against both these
>kinds of offenders in regard to the present difficulties of this time
>wherein the decay and lack of hospitality appears in the better sort in all
>countries, principally occasioned by the immeasurable charges and expenses
>which they are put to in superfluous appareling their wives, children, and
>families; the confusion also of degrees in all places being great where the
>meanest are as richly appareled as their betters, and the pride that such
>inferior per- sons take in their garments driving many for their maintenance
>to robbing and stealing by the highway. And yet in her gracious disposition,
>being willing to have that course of punishment to he the last mean of
>reforma- tion, did in the end of this last term of the Holy Trinity in her
>highness' Court of Star Chamber at an assembly of divers lords of her Privy
>Council, and most of the judges being Justices of Assize, in the open
>hearing of many justices of the peace of all the parts of the realm and of a
>multitude of her majesty's subjects there present, by way of admonition
>signify her princely determination to have (specially at this time) for many
>urgent considerations this intolerable abuse and unmeasurable disorder
>reformed. And albeit her highness knows how she might justly make great
>profit as well by the exe- cutions of her laws standing in force for the
>penalties already due as also against both the said kinds of offenders for
>their manifest contempt against her majesty's said proclamations; yet her
>majesty, not respecting her ad- vantages in these cases but seriously
>intending the reformation of the abuses and the common good and benefit of
>all her loving subjects by these most royal and gracious proceedings, hath
>not only added by these presents such favorable tolerations and
>qualifications to such points of the former laws now standing in force as by
>alteration of time may seem in some part hard to be exactly observed, but
>also hath commanded the due execution of those parts of those laws that be
>most agreeable to this time and easy and necessary to he observed, without
>charging either kind of the said offenders for any offense already past,
>unless it he against such as shall hereafter offend or not observe the
>special parts and branches of the laws now standing in force ' and articles
>hereafter following, according to such toleration and moderation thereof as
>is hereafter expressed and set down;
>

-- 
Jean Waddie
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From: Catherine Olanich Raymond <cathy@thyrsus.com>
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Surcoat fabric
Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2003 13:52:02 -0500
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On Saturday 05 April 2003 01:29 pm, Heather Meadows wrote:
> actually, a lot of people don't wear wool, or only have a sweater or
> two out of it.  Most people I know stick to cottons for everyday wear -
> I have to search long and hard to find good wool clothes casual enough
> for everyday.

A lot of Americans don't wear wool much.  Cotton, on the other hand, in a wide 
variety of forms, is ubiquitous.

It's easy enough to find wool sweaters that are casual, but you're right--most 
other wool clothing is more formal.  Suits, nice pants, or dresses not meant 
for everyday.
-- 
Cathy Raymond <cathy@thyrsus.com>

"Intelligence is the ultimate aphrodisiac."  Timothy Leary

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From: "Lisa Sinervo" <lsinervo@earthlink.net>
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Subject: [h-cost] more on Cloth of Gold and Silver
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Kimiko wrote:

This one is a bit confusing. The cloth of gold or silver is repeated twice. 
The "tissued" first under the degree of earl. Then again, but not noted as 
tissued, under the degree of baron. This makes me wonder what the 
difference was? And what is "tissued" anyway?

Bodkin, tinsel and tissue, all potentially cloths of gold or silver, underwent some changes through time.  Tinsel degenerates into a cloth containing any kind of metal, especially copper.  I don't know if tinsel containing copper is still considered a "cloth of gold or silver" being an imitation thereof.  Tissue and bodkin retain their status, so this could be why Earls could wear a cloth of gold of "tissue" and a baron could have a "cloth of gold" that might be of metal, but not really gold.  Just speculation.  I've come across quite a few derogatory comments about garments using copper for their embellishment, especially theatrical garments.

Lisa Sinervo
Threadneedle St. Clothiers
www.ThreadneedleSt.com
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Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2003 11:46:34 -0700
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Chris Laning <claning@igc.org>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Surcoat fabric
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At 9:54 AM -0800 4/5/03, Kimiko Small wrote:
>After finishing a costume for a client, I can finally do something 
>for myself. I have a Ren Faire at the end of April, where I will be 
>joining a nobles group for Elizabeth's court. Having just had a 
>baby, I don't want to wear a corset so I am about to embark on my 
>first Spanish style surcoat, similar to one in Janet Arnold's 
>Pattens of Fashion; the one with the appliques down the front, but 
>with a fuller pleated back.
>
>I wanted to make it out of a fine suit wool I have, with the 
>appliques in either black satin or velvet. However, a friend 
>commented that nobles would not be wearing wool garments, but it 
>should be in a velvet with satin appliques.

Let me say first of all that what you want to do depends partly on 
what people generally do in the group you're going to be with. If 
they are all very glittery, and you are in plain wool, you're going 
to stand out, and that's not necessarily a good thing -- and still 
more true if it's vice versa.

Second, while I don't have one myself, people tell me that the big 
issue with the Spanish ropa is weight, especially in hot weather. It 
takes quite a bit of fabric to make a ropa that hangs properly. (One 
of the mistakes that I see  most often in a variety of historical 
clothing is that people tend to not use enough yardage, and so the 
garments look skimpy.) With a ropa, _all_ of the weight of the 
garment is hanging from your shoulders -- and some people find they 
get very tired of this after a while.

Nobles certainly did wear fine wool (and silk of course), as did 
everyone who could afford it. An amusing story -- someone from my 
guild was transferred by his company to England for three years, and 
he took his Elizabethan clothing with him. He says he quickly 
discovered _why_ the Elizabethans wore all those layers of wool -- 
his comment was "It gets bloody COLD over there!" <g>

I would also suggest that velvet might be a better choice than satin 
for your appliques. Most modern satins seem to me to be too shiny to 
look right. One of my friends had moderately good luck using silk 
"peau de soie" which is smooth and glossy, but not that in-your-face- 
kind of shiny. (On the other hand, she also found that it didn't wear 
particularly well.) Sometimes you can also use the reverse side of 
satin-like fabrics, which tones them down quite a bit. Other common 
forms of trimming I've seen seem to be velvet strips along the edges 
of the garment and patterns of looped and interlaced cording sewn 
down to the fabric. The latter are unfortunately pretty 
labor-intensive, but the velvet strips or "gards" are easy and quick.
-- 
_________________________________________________________
O    Chris Laning
|     <claning@igc.org>
+    Davis, California
_________________________________________________________
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I've seen pictures of an extant supportasse made of wire, wrapped in
thread (I think).  If my tax-stressed brain is remembering correctly, I
think it's in one of the photocopied articles I've got that Janet Arnold
wrote for Kostum...something, something german.
--sue, subsiding back into paperwork.....<blech>

AlbertCat@aol.com wrote:
> 
> In a message dated 4/5/2003 6:54:13 AM Eastern Standard Time,
> drewscph@post12.tele.dk writes:
> 
> > Someone said, that there is a collar behind the standing lace collar. Would
> > this be a standing collar attached to the bodice?
> > Would this collar have bones in it, to make it stand?
> >
> 
> It might be a blue "supportass" [did I spell that right?]. There is a real
> one somewhere...the V&A? Isn't it in Janet Arnold? Anyway I've seen it in a
> photo somewhere attached to a Ropa, which has a high neck. The wide scoop
> neck of the gown would require a rethinking of this. I don't know if a
> supportass for a gown still exists. Anyone?
> It is very stiff but I don't think it was boned. Instead, it's made of stiff
> heavy paper or leather or something and covered with silk. This doesn't mean
> it could not be boned with baleen or reeds or something. Doesn't QEI have
> those big heart shaped collars wired up with gold wire?
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Oh, Bjarne, have a *wonderful* time!
And thanks to the person who posted the workable URL for the picture (my
computer actually crashed when I tried Bjarne's original link).  Does
anyone have any theories about what kinds of flowers those are are the
dress trim?
--sue

Bjarne og Leif Drews wrote:
> 
> Dear Gail
> I hope you got the picture now, someone sended the URL for the big picture.
> I am leaving for England monday morning, and i will be at the Bath Ball next
> saturday. I have lots of memory cards for my digital camera, so i promise,
> the week before easter i shall upload pictures from the ball.
> I have everything ready for the ball, and i was allowed to bring the
> wardrobe bag with me into the airplane.
>
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Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2003 18:50:18 -0400
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From: fastusminimus <cahuff@mindspring.com>
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Subject: [h-cost] Pattern material
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Hi
I need some advice/help. I have several patterns that I use a *lot* 
and the newsprint is getting old and raggy--time to re-cut another 
copy. What material do y'all use to make patterns that you use and 
reuse. For small parts I use something strong like 1/4 luan or heavy 
cardboard. This is *not* practical for bigger pieces...

Thanks
Carol
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Pattern material
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banner paper.


On Sunday, April 6, 2003, at 03:50 PM, fastusminimus wrote:

> Hi
> I need some advice/help. I have several patterns that I use a *lot* 
> and the newsprint is getting old and raggy--time to re-cut another 
> copy. What material do y'all use to make patterns that you use and 
> reuse. For small parts I use something strong like 1/4 luan or heavy 
> cardboard. This is *not* practical for bigger pieces...
>
> Thanks
> Carol
> _______________________________________________
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To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: RE: [h-cost] Pattern material
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Non-fusible interfacing. Works great.

Talia

-----Original Message-----
From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com]On
Behalf Of fastusminimus
Sent: Sunday, April 06, 2003 5:50 PM
To: h-costume@indra.com
Subject: [h-cost] Pattern material


Hi
I need some advice/help. I have several patterns that I use a *lot* 
and the newsprint is getting old and raggy--time to re-cut another 
copy. What material do y'all use to make patterns that you use and 
reuse. For small parts I use something strong like 1/4 luan or heavy 
cardboard. This is *not* practical for bigger pieces...

Thanks
Carol
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        I use light weight unwoven interface fabric.  Of course, I got
lucky and found a big roll of it at a thrift shop for five bucks.  I love
it for making up my own patterns too because I can baste the pieces
together and get a good idea of how well it is going to work.  

Lalah
Never give up, Never surrender
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> I need some advice/help. I have several patterns that I use a *lot*
> and the newsprint is getting old and raggy--time to re-cut another
> copy. What material do y'all use to make patterns that you use and
> reuse. For small parts I use something strong like 1/4 luan or heavy
> cardboard. This is *not* practical for bigger pieces...


I had some craft pattern pieces that I was using to make lots of copies of
the same pieces. I put fusible interfacing on the back of the tissue and
fused muslin to them. That way I can still see all the markings, but the
pieces don't tear from pinning, folding, etc.

I've seen grid-marked, thin, non-woven material in fabric stores to make
patterns from, but I don't like it. It feels weird, it's as thin as tissue
(but probably a little stronger) and it doesn't stay put well. Slides and
blows around.

Denise
landofoz@netins.net

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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Pattern material
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I buy the fleece backed vinyl they sell for table cloths and make my most
useful patterns out of that. It has the benefit of behaving like a fabric
(you can fold it up to put it away!), but it won't tear or cut easily
like paper. Plus, the fleece backing means that it won't slide around
easily so it's nice to cut around.


Karen

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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Sun Apr  6 20:15:02 2003
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From: "chiara" <chiara@io.com>
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	<a0501040bbab65eb8600a@[64.41.32.126]>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Pattern material
Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2003 18:07:53 -0500
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There is a vogue pattern that I have owned for over 12 years that I am not
willing to let die. If vogue would remake it I would buy it in a split
second! It is not even in their archives for me to order, sigh.

What I have done was just take interfacing, the really cheap 4 for a dollar
non-fusible stuff and traced out my old pattern on it. I have done this at
least 4 times. I am about to do it again cause I lost the cuffs and have to
make those. I have tried to make those from memory before and made them way
too small to fit hubby, (it is a ladies artist tunic with really cool collar
pleating that looks like something from the Elizabethan era, the cuffs
match). Anyhow, the cuffs are my bane, I will have to look at my costuming
books to see if I can find a cuff that will work this time since I do not
even have the bits of the original pattern and he likes only this pattern.
Never mind that I have Margo's nifty men's pattern, no, he wants his old
shirt, nothing else will appease him, *rolls eyes*, men.

Anyhow, use non-fusible interfacing, they now have it with a grid, the last
pretty long unless you use them once a quarter like I do. :)

Ches

----- Original Message -----
From: "fastusminimus" <cahuff@mindspring.com>
To: <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Sunday, April 06, 2003 5:50 PM
Subject: [h-cost] Pattern material


> Hi
> I need some advice/help. I have several patterns that I use a *lot*
> and the newsprint is getting old and raggy--time to re-cut another
> copy. What material do y'all use to make patterns that you use and
> reuse. For small parts I use something strong like 1/4 luan or heavy
> cardboard. This is *not* practical for bigger pieces...
>
> Thanks
> Carol
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Sun Apr  6 20:25:22 2003
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Pattern material
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if you like it that much, you should get some tagboard and cut it out 
of that -
that's what apparel companies do for long term pattern use.

tagboard is the same weight and material that manila folders
are made out of.


On Sunday, April 6, 2003, at 04:07 PM, chiara wrote:

> There is a vogue pattern that I have owned for over 12 years that I am 
> not
> willing to let die. If vogue would remake it I would buy it in a split
> second! It is not even in their archives for me to order, sigh.
>
> What I have done was just take interfacing, the really cheap 4 for a 
> dollar
> non-fusible stuff and traced out my old pattern on it. I have done 
> this at
> least 4 times. I am about to do it again cause I lost the cuffs and 
> have to
> make those. I have tried to make those from memory before and made 
> them way
> too small to fit hubby, (it is a ladies artist tunic with really cool 
> collar
> pleating that looks like something from the Elizabethan era, the cuffs
> match). Anyhow, the cuffs are my bane, I will have to look at my 
> costuming
> books to see if I can find a cuff that will work this time since I do 
> not
> even have the bits of the original pattern and he likes only this 
> pattern.
> Never mind that I have Margo's nifty men's pattern, no, he wants his 
> old
> shirt, nothing else will appease him, *rolls eyes*, men.
>
> Anyhow, use non-fusible interfacing, they now have it with a grid, the 
> last
> pretty long unless you use them once a quarter like I do. :)
>
> Ches
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "fastusminimus" <cahuff@mindspring.com>
> To: <h-costume@indra.com>
> Sent: Sunday, April 06, 2003 5:50 PM
> Subject: [h-cost] Pattern material
>
>
>> Hi
>> I need some advice/help. I have several patterns that I use a *lot*
>> and the newsprint is getting old and raggy--time to re-cut another
>> copy. What material do y'all use to make patterns that you use and
>> reuse. For small parts I use something strong like 1/4 luan or heavy
>> cardboard. This is *not* practical for bigger pieces...
>>
>> Thanks
>> Carol
>> _______________________________________________
>> h-costume mailing list
>> h-costume@mail.indra.com
>> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
>
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
>

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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Sun Apr  6 20:43:29 2003
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] more on Cloth of Gold and Silver
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Lisa Sinervo wrote:
> 
> I don't know if tinsel containing copper is still considered a "cloth of gold or silver" being an 
>imitation thereof.  Tissue and bodkin retain their status, so this
could be why Earls could wear a cloth
> of gold of "tissue" and a baron could have a "cloth of gold" that might be of metal, but not really
> gold.  Just speculation.  I've come across quite a few derogatory comments about garments using copper
> for their embellishment, especially theatrical garments.

I've been putting all the costume references from Henslowe's Diary into
a database.  (Henslowe ran a theatre in late-16th-c. England.)  Some are
references to clothing bought for costume use, and some are listings of
clothing he took in pawn for loans.  I haven't found any that refer to
copper cloth of gold or silver, but there are a few with copper.  If
something in the original text is in brackets, it was crossed out.  If
it is in parentheses, it was a superscript character.

1.  Layd owte for cop(r) lace for the littell boye & for a valle for the
boye A
geanste the playe of dido & enevs the 3 of Jenewary 1597 xxix s

[my translation:  laid out for copper lace for the little boy and a veil
for the boy against the play of Dido and Aeneas the 3rd of January,
1597:  29 shillings]

2.  lent vnto Robart shawe to by cop(r) lace of sylver for
a payer hosse in alls perce the 10 of desemb3 1597...xvj s

[lent to Robert Shawe to buy copper lace of silver for a pair of hose in
Alice Pierce [a play] the 10th of December, 1597:  16 shillings]

3.  Bowght the 18 of ap(r)ell 1598 xvj ownces of copelace
brad w(th) sylver & gowld cop at vjij d ownce...x s viij d

[Bought the 18th of April, 1598, 16 ounces of copper lace braid with
silver and gold copper at 8 pence an ounce:  10 shillings, 8 pence]
(Does that add up?  I'm not familiar with the lsd system.)

4.  lent vnto Robart shawe for to by cop lace
of [gowe] sylver to lace a payer of hosse for alles perce
the 10 of desemb3 1597 the some of xvj s

[lent to Robert Shaw to buy copper lace of [gold crossed out] silver to
lace a pair of hose for Alice Pierce [a play] the 10th of December,
1597, the sum of 16 shillings]

Melanie Schuessler
http://www.faucet.net/costume
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Sue Clemenger wrote:
> 
> I've seen pictures of an extant supportasse made of wire, wrapped in
> thread (I think).  If my tax-stressed brain is remembering correctly, I
> think it's in one of the photocopied articles I've got that Janet Arnold
> wrote for Kostum...something, something german.
> --sue, subsiding back into paperwork.....<blech>

It's in the article I was going on about earlier:

Three examples of late sixteenth and early seventeenth century neckwear,
by Janet Arnold, in Waffen-und Kostumkunde, 1973, volume 15, pp. 109-124

"A specimen survives in the Germanisches Nationalmuseum, with the lace
still tacked to the supportasse, which is made of metal, probably iron,
bound with sea-green silk (Plates 15 and 16).  Round this is twisted a
thin gold strip so that the struts have a striped effect.  They are
bound together at the intersections with fine gold wire (Plate 18)."

It's very pretty, as the wire has been bent into decorative floral
shapes in the spaces between the structural struts.  This was a
supportasse for a flat lace collar (like in the Queen Anne dress), not a ruff.

Melanie Schuessler
http://www.faucet.net/costume
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Chris Laning wrote:
> 
> I would also suggest that velvet might be a better choice than satin
> for your appliques. Most modern satins seem to me to be too shiny to
> look right.

How about "duchess" satin?  It is available online in silk (though it's
expensive), and it has a much gentler sheen than poly bridal satin.

Melanie Schuessler
http://www.faucet.net/costume
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I use 10-oz. canvas for a lot of them (I used to work at a tent and tipi
manufacturers, and could get remnants *really cheaply*!).  Or I use a
type of pattern paper very similar to the paper used to make manila
folders.
I imagine you could also use clear vinyl or something....
--sue

Carol asked:
> 
> Hi
> I need some advice/help. I have several patterns that I use a *lot*
> and the newsprint is getting old and raggy--time to re-cut another
> copy. What material do y'all use to make patterns that you use and
> reuse. For small parts I use something strong like 1/4 luan or heavy
> cardboard. This is *not* practical for bigger pieces...
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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Carolyn Kayta Barrows <kayta@frys.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Pattern material
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>I imagine you could also use clear vinyl or something....

I use Archeitchts' tracing mylar.  This is only because I was able to 
salvage a couple of rolls of the stuff.  It's really tough, and takes 
pencil lines or pen lines very well, but it can't be folded and must be 
rolled, which takes up lots of space.  It's also quite difficult to pin it, 
and I have to use masking tape to hold pieces of it together, or pattern 
weights to hold it onto the cloth while I'm cutting.

         CarolynKayta Barrows
dollmaker, fibre artist, textillian
           www.FunStuft.com

              //// \\\
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Date: Sun, 06 Apr 2003 18:29:54 -0700
From: Kimiko Small <kimiko@kimiko1.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Surcoat fabric-Statues and Orders for Apparel
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At 10:37 AM 4/6/2003 -0700, you wrote:
>Note-this long email contains definitions for various types of cloth of gold
>and the 1597 English Statue and Proclamations of Apparel


Hi Lisa

What a great amount of material you have given us. Thank you very much. You 
should post this on your web site or someplace for others to be able to 
learn from, if permissible.

I will be making a printed copy to give to our guild, so others can learn 
from it as well.

Thank you so much again!

Kimiko




Kimiko Small
Costumer, Fiber Artist, Web Designer, Wife and Mother
kimiko@kimiko1.com; http://www.kimiko1.com

Graphic Intern at Costume Gallery
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Date: Sun, 06 Apr 2003 18:33:29 -0700
From: Kimiko Small <kimiko@kimiko1.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] more on Cloth of Gold and Silver
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At 07:43 PM 4/6/2003 -0600, you wrote:
>I've been putting all the costume references from Henslowe's Diary into
>a database.  (Henslowe ran a theatre in late-16th-c. England.)  Some are
>references to clothing bought for costume use, and some are listings of
>clothing he took in pawn for loans.


Thank you Melanie, for sharing this with us. I have to say I am amazed at 
your (and others) ability to translate the older languages with such 
clarity. I would have been lost.

Kimiko



Kimiko Small
Costumer, Fiber Artist, Web Designer, Wife and Mother
kimiko@kimiko1.com; http://www.kimiko1.com

Graphic Intern at Costume Gallery
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The patterns that I use for "production" work (ones that get over 100 pieces
a year made from them) I cut from quilters "template plastic" -- see, those
quilt stores are useful for SOMETHING.

You can buy it in fairly large sheets- I got mine from the Wright's outlet
store (11"x14" sheets for 55 cents each).  Not only can you draw on it (with
just about anything), it cuts with scissors, but the rotary cutter takes a
bit of effort to cut it.

Another bonus is that it is clear, and  therefore easier to match patterns
(in fabric).


Lyn Greaves
Lady Rosamund d'Alwareton
COM, COTerpsichore, COSalamander



----- Original Message -----
From: "fastusminimus" <cahuff@mindspring.com>
To: <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Sunday, April 06, 2003 6:50 PM
Subject: [h-cost] Pattern material


> Hi
> I need some advice/help. I have several patterns that I use a *lot*
> and the newsprint is getting old and raggy--time to re-cut another
> copy. What material do y'all use to make patterns that you use and
> reuse. For small parts I use something strong like 1/4 luan or heavy
> cardboard. This is *not* practical for bigger pieces...
>
> Thanks
> Carol
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
>
>


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Yes, it was from Henslowe's diary that I came across the copper
embellishments too.  Today was the first time I looked at the definitions
for "Cloth of Gold or Silver" so I will keep my eye out for tinsel now.  It
could be simply that "Tissue" was the most valued of the "cloths of gold"
and perhaps Bodkin or Tinsel made of gold would still be acceptable for
baron.  A baron probably wouldn't be caught dead in copper embellished
cloth.

Lisa

----- Original Message -----
From: "Melanie Schuessler" <melanie@faucet.net>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Sunday, April 06, 2003 6:43 PM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] more on Cloth of Gold and Silver


> Lisa Sinervo wrote:
> >
> > I don't know if tinsel containing copper is still considered a "cloth of
gold or silver" being an
> >imitation thereof.  Tissue and bodkin retain their status, so this
> could be why Earls could wear a cloth
> > of gold of "tissue" and a baron could have a "cloth of gold" that might
be of metal, but not really
> > gold.  Just speculation.  I've come across quite a few derogatory
comments about garments using copper
> > for their embellishment, especially theatrical garments.
>
> I've been putting all the costume references from Henslowe's Diary into
> a database.  (Henslowe ran a theatre in late-16th-c. England.)  Some are
> references to clothing bought for costume use, and some are listings of
> clothing he took in pawn for loans.  I haven't found any that refer to
> copper cloth of gold or silver, but there are a few with copper.  If
> something in the original text is in brackets, it was crossed out.  If
> it is in parentheses, it was a superscript character.
>
> 1.  Layd owte for cop(r) lace for the littell boye & for a valle for the
> boye A
> geanste the playe of dido & enevs the 3 of Jenewary 1597 xxix s
>
> [my translation:  laid out for copper lace for the little boy and a veil
> for the boy against the play of Dido and Aeneas the 3rd of January,
> 1597:  29 shillings]
>
> 2.  lent vnto Robart shawe to by cop(r) lace of sylver for
> a payer hosse in alls perce the 10 of desemb3 1597...xvj s
>
> [lent to Robert Shawe to buy copper lace of silver for a pair of hose in
> Alice Pierce [a play] the 10th of December, 1597:  16 shillings]
>
> 3.  Bowght the 18 of ap(r)ell 1598 xvj ownces of copelace
> brad w(th) sylver & gowld cop at vjij d ownce...x s viij d
>
> [Bought the 18th of April, 1598, 16 ounces of copper lace braid with
> silver and gold copper at 8 pence an ounce:  10 shillings, 8 pence]
> (Does that add up?  I'm not familiar with the lsd system.)
>
> 4.  lent vnto Robart shawe for to by cop lace
> of [gowe] sylver to lace a payer of hosse for alles perce
> the 10 of desemb3 1597 the some of xvj s
>
> [lent to Robert Shaw to buy copper lace of [gold crossed out] silver to
> lace a pair of hose for Alice Pierce [a play] the 10th of December,
> 1597, the sum of 16 shillings]
>
> Melanie Schuessler
> http://www.faucet.net/costume
> _______________________________________________
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From: "Lisa Sinervo" <lisa-list@threadneedlest.com>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
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You're most welcome Kimiko.  I'm glad you asked the question.  I rather
enjoy digging up info.  I'm working very hard on my website and hope to have
info on a starch house up by the end of June.  Next I might start on the
Frippers page.  I'd be including the related proclamations. I'd love to post
the whole Linthicum book, but it's still under copyright, but just barely,
so I'll find some other way to incorporate the info.

Cheers,

Lisa


----- Original Message -----
From: "Kimiko Small" <kimiko@kimiko1.com>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Sunday, April 06, 2003 6:29 PM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Surcoat fabric-Statues and Orders for Apparel


> At 10:37 AM 4/6/2003 -0700, you wrote:
> >Note-this long email contains definitions for various types of cloth of
gold
> >and the 1597 English Statue and Proclamations of Apparel
>
>
> Hi Lisa
>
> What a great amount of material you have given us. Thank you very much.
You
> should post this on your web site or someplace for others to be able to
> learn from, if permissible.
>
> I will be making a printed copy to give to our guild, so others can learn
> from it as well.
>
> Thank you so much again!
>
> Kimiko
>
>
>
>
> Kimiko Small
> Costumer, Fiber Artist, Web Designer, Wife and Mother
> kimiko@kimiko1.com; http://www.kimiko1.com
>
> Graphic Intern at Costume Gallery
> http://www.costumegallery.com
>
> _______________________________________________
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> h-costume@mail.indra.com
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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Sun Apr  6 23:16:26 2003
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Hi. This illustrates precisely the difference between Historical costuming for
Renfaires and other aspects. In the US, Renfaires are theatrical events held in
(generally) the good weather months. Woolens are, therefore, although
historically accurate for the period, discouraged. Also, the average performer at
such events could hardly be expected to afford the real materials that were used
for the clothing of the period, such as silk brocades and velvets. This gets back
to a previous discussion regarding using UK reenactors for TV appearances. You
will occasionally see film clips of Renfaire folk in some TV in the US, but
mostly, the educational channels use either UK folks or reenactors from the US
with authentic gear. This, of course, gets expensive (both the gear and the
filming). I can see how some folks would begin to feel a little used after having
put out massive funds for extremely accurate kit, and be offered little to
nothing in the way of compensation. Although many Faires are increasingly
bettering their clothing standards, they are still in the range of Theatrical
costuming moreso than historic recreation of the sort seen in many of the
reenactment groups. Mike T.



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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Sun Apr  6 23:45:18 2003
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Hi. It seems from your entries that "copper lace" might have been a copper alloy with either gold or silver
coloring. This would allow more inexpensive materials to pass for the "real thing". Perhaps the alloy was
either rolled out into foil and wrapped on the silk, or the precious metals were plated in some way onto the
base metal (mercury gilding or the like). Any of our jewelry or metallurgist specialists care to speculate
on these? Curious, Mike T.



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Hi Mike T.

At 10:13 PM 4/6/2003 -0400, you wrote:
>Hi. This illustrates precisely the difference between Historical costuming for
>Renfaires and other aspects. In the US, Renfaires are theatrical events 
>held in
>(generally) the good weather months. Woolens are, therefore, although
>historically accurate for the period, discouraged.


{steps onto a soap box.}

Having performed at small California Ren Faires for over 10 years, I have 
to disagree in some aspects of this comment. Yes, the faires are done 
during the hot weather months, in my area from March until November, when 
it gets rainy. Some faires I have attended have snowed, such as in South 
Lake Tahoe in June, when it is either sunny or sometimes snowing. That was 
a magical year when it snowed, even if there were little costumers to play to.

I used to participate as a Scot, and my clothing is normally wool. Wool 
plaides/kilts/arasaids, wool dresses, wool cloaks, and linen (or cotton or 
silk) leines. So, dressing in wool during the summer is normal for me. If I 
could use cotton more often, I would and do. But cotton for nobles just 
doesn't look right, unless it is cotton velveteen. There is debate as to 
whether it is better to use cotton velveteen or silk/rayon velvet for 
nobles dresses. I prefer cotton as it is cheaper and holds up to wear ok. 
Silk/Rayon, while beautiful, is too expensive to put through the wringer of 
faire abuse. There is also debate I have heard about how it is too "shiny" 
to use for the time period. I still plan on making a garment with it 
sometime soon, however.

>Also, the average performer at
>such events could hardly be expected to afford the real materials that 
>were used
>for the clothing of the period, such as silk brocades and velvets.

That I can understand. Most people play peasants because it is much cheaper 
to put an outfit together using cotton, and it is cooler as well. Many 
faire performers don't care if their outfit is "period" or not, so long as 
it passes muster, which varies from group to group, or faire to faire.

The nobles in many groups I have played with usually spend great sums of 
money to create as rich and expensive a nobles outfit as they can afford. 
And with some of them living in the Los Angeles area with the great fabric 
warehouse district, that is a lot of wonderful materials available at a 
decent budget.

>This gets back
>to a previous discussion regarding using UK reenactors for TV appearances. You
>will occasionally see film clips of Renfaire folk in some TV in the US, but
>mostly, the educational channels use either UK folks or reenactors from the US
>with authentic gear.

The Discovery Channel program on the Knight was on last Sunday. I looked 
hard for credits, figuring it was some re-enactment group in Britain, but 
no credits were noted. I still wonder who they were, because I loved their 
garb. I have no idea how accurate they were however, as that isn't my time 
period. But as to who they use, I would not be surprised if they were 
re-enactors for the most part. Our local Civil War groups are as accurate 
as possible, while some faire people do tend to follow a theatrical look, 
with many exceptions.

>This, of course, gets expensive (both the gear and the
>filming). I can see how some folks would begin to feel a little used after 
>having
>put out massive funds for extremely accurate kit, and be offered little to
>nothing in the way of compensation.

We do faires for free, for the most part. Some groups get payment, but that 
funds guild activities, and not the individual's costuming needs. Hence why 
many groups do Not for Profit status, so they can write off some of the 
costs. But many of the actors and guilds I know enjoy performing for TV 
crews, mainly as promotion of upcoming faires or other advertisement.

>Although many Faires are increasingly
>bettering their clothing standards, they are still in the range of Theatrical
>costuming moreso than historic recreation of the sort seen in many of the
>reenactment groups.

I both agree and disagree. I have seen some faire people go to great 
lengths to be as historically accurate as current information allows, and I 
have seen some SCA re-enactors wear the most basic and inaccurate of 
costumes (they are my friends, so I can comment). I think it depends on the 
person as to how authentic they want to be.

I do believe that some people in faire wear certain outfits because it is 
"cool" to wear them, such as the influx of Celts wearing huge sleeved 
leines (which I was guilty of before I knew better) or the rise of Ottoman 
actors wearing modern bellydancing garb. Then the argument over great 
kilts, to wear or not to wear them for 16th c. personas. My group wore them 
to distinguish us from the Irish, but I know another group who do not wear 
kilts at all anymore (but they used to.)

But many of faire people do create and wear garments that they know will be 
under close scrutiny by the audience. When customers are standing next to 
you, they get to see everything you are wearing, or not. This is different 
than true theatre, where you can do odd things to costumes to get it to 
"look right" at a distance. Like bumpy plastic beads on a Tudor sleeve to 
give it sparkle. I saw that on an old theater costume that was for sale. I 
never would put that on a gown used at Faire.

I think there is a spectrum of accuracy in faire, in costume and in 
performers. Some are there for the fun of it, some to provide history 
lessons, and others to entertain.

I personally want to improve my knowledge of historical costumes so I can 
improve the costumes I create for faire people. As much as possible, I want 
the costumed actors to look like they stepped out of a painting. I have 
seen some faire garb that do just that. But it all depends on the person.

Time to step off my soap box. Thanks for your time.

Kimiko



Kimiko Small
Costumer, Fiber Artist, Web Designer, Wife and Mother
kimiko@kimiko1.com; http://www.kimiko1.com

Graphic Intern at Costume Gallery
http://www.costumegallery.com

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A friend uses clear shower curtains she gets at the dollar store....  works
good.

Jenne

Talia wrote:

> Non-fusible interfacing. Works great.
>
> Talia
>

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Date: Sun, 06 Apr 2003 20:06:34 -0700
From: Kimiko Small <kimiko@kimiko1.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Queen Anne Dress
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At 11:12 PM 4/6/2003 -0400, you wrote:
>If you are doing only your own taxes, :-), I have little 
>sympathy!  LOL  You could
>have my job...  I do everyones! The joy of working for a CPA...  60 hr 
>workweeks,
>minimum... (sigh)  (April 6th and counting)
>
>Jenne


And that is why I quit being an Accountant. I hate tax season. Now I get a 
grumpy teething baby, and some time for costuming work, which is my passion.

Kimiko



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I just use the cheapest cloth I can find, which is usually $1/yd or
less.  I can fold up the patterns and keep them in envelopes, but when
I lay them out I don't generally need pins or weights as the friction
holds it well.

						...eliz

-- 
You need only two tools. WD-40 and duct tape. If it doesn't move and it
should, use WD-40. If it moves and shouldn't, use the tape.

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>
>Titanic was the biggest one concerned and it was the sex seen in the car
>that was removed 
>
Much as I despise censorship, I actually agree with this editing for
artistic reasons.  The sex in the car scene seemed totally gratuitous to
me, and lessened the poignancy of the ending.


Margo

"One Tough Costumer"
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Well, no, not just my own, strictly.  I've also got the entire 2002
books for my local SCA group, which I inherited because I'm the only one
who can get them done and forwarded on to Kingdom before the Great Tax
Day of Doom.  So please, sympathize away! <g> I have to file a 1040 form
for the first time ever this year, because of money and property I
inherited, so I am *SO* not looking forward to it!
I have a job that occasionally generates obscene amounts of overtime,
too, but it's more reflective of the school year than the tax/business
cycle.
OCC: I don't remember seeing a supportasse in the V&A, but then, I only
had a few hours there, and that was pretty much spent frantically
photographing things in the textile rooms.  I do remember seeing,
however, two metal frameworks for english gable headresses at the MoL.
--sue, going back to ironing (blech...housework as a break from
paperwork....)

Justine Magill wrote:
> 
> I think I know the article you mean, but my brain is not coming up with it....
> Isn't there one in the V&A?  I am very fuzzy brained right now due to my own
> extreme tax stress and cannot recall clearly where I saw one....
> 
> If you are doing only your own taxes, :-), I have little sympathy!  LOL  You could
> have my job...  I do everyones! The joy of working for a CPA...  60 hr workweeks,
> minimum... (sigh)  (April 6th and counting)
> 
> Jenne
> 
> Sue Clemenger wrote:
> 
> > I've seen pictures of an extant supportasse made of wire, wrapped in
> > thread (I think).  If my tax-stressed brain is remembering correctly, I
> > think it's in one of the photocopied articles I've got that Janet Arnold
> > wrote for Kostum...something, something german.
> > --sue, subsiding back into paperwork.....<blech>
>
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I think I know the article you mean, but my brain is not coming up with it....
Isn't there one in the V&A?  I am very fuzzy brained right now due to my own
extreme tax stress and cannot recall clearly where I saw one....

If you are doing only your own taxes, :-), I have little sympathy!  LOL  You could
have my job...  I do everyones! The joy of working for a CPA...  60 hr workweeks,
minimum... (sigh)  (April 6th and counting)

Jenne

Sue Clemenger wrote:

> I've seen pictures of an extant supportasse made of wire, wrapped in
> thread (I think).  If my tax-stressed brain is remembering correctly, I
> think it's in one of the photocopied articles I've got that Janet Arnold
> wrote for Kostum...something, something german.
> --sue, subsiding back into paperwork.....<blech>
>

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References: 
	<200304060316.h363GQ7P014036@net.indra.com><a0501040bbab65eb8600a@[64.41.32.126]>
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Pattern material
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I've used something very similar to the text I quoted below. I used to work
for a magazine and every month was apalled at the waste of plastic.

The magazine still used film and ads could be either digital or on film. The
magaine pages were not really salvageable.. well they could but it would
have text all over it, but the film that the copy was taped to was
wonderful. Quite thick, sturdy and clear. I drew in permanent marker the
pattern pieces and then cut out with scissors.

Those patterns are wonderful to use, and really handy as you can lay out the
pieces and match up the fabric pattern if so needed:)

heheh, I used to have to go through the film each month to pull out all the
copy... and keep up the copy library... sigh... not fun when the competiting
magazines were in production at about the same time and wouldn't release
it...

And then there was the time the advertising manager booked a single page and
a double page spread for a big company when no such deal had happened... and
I had to do the calls and fix it...sigh.

I enjoyed the work admittedly;)

michaela
http://recital.tripod.com/costume


> The patterns that I use for "production" work (ones that get over 100
pieces
> a year made from them) I cut from quilters "template plastic" -- see,
those
> quilt stores are useful for SOMETHING.
> You can buy it in fairly large sheets- I got mine from the Wright's outlet
> store (11"x14" sheets for 55 cents each).  Not only can you draw on it
(with
> just about anything), it cuts with scissors, but the rotary cutter takes a
> bit of effort to cut it.
> Another bonus is that it is clear, and  therefore easier to match patterns
> (in fabric).
> Lyn Greaves
> Lady Rosamund d'Alwareton
> COM, COTerpsichore, COSalamander


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Subject: RE: [h-cost] Re: OT, movies
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Linda wrote:

Kate Bunting
Library, University of Derby

>>> Actually, I heard on the news last week that there is a company that
>takes regular movies and re-edits them to remove the violence, sex, etc
>and then sells the finished product as suitable for all ages. IIRC they
>have at least the knowledge if not the approval of the movie companies
>to do this. The story said that some movies can't be done, because once
>all the sex and violence are removed there is not enough left to hold a
>movie together!
Reminds me of Lamb's "Tales from Shakespeare". Charles and Mary Lamb retold for children the stories of all his non-historical plays, of course omitting any sexual elements - but in the case of "Measure for Measure", that would have left no story to tell, so they just had to word their version as tactfully as possible.



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Chris Laning wrote:
> An amusing story -- someone from my 
>guild was transferred by his company to England for three years, and 
>he took his Elizabethan clothing with him. He says he quickly 
>discovered _why_ the Elizabethans wore all those layers of wool -- 
>his comment was "It gets bloody COLD over there!" <g>

And, of course,  probably got colder still in the 16th century.




Kate Bunting
Library, University of Derby


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Melanie wrote:

Kate Bunting
Library, University of Derby

>>> 3.  Bowght the 18 of ap(r)ell 1598 xvj ownces of copelace
>brad w(th) sylver & gowld cop at vjij d ownce...x s viij d

>[Bought the 18th of April, 1598, 16 ounces of copper lace braid with
>silver and gold copper at 8 pence an ounce:  10 shillings, 8 pence]
>(Does that add up?  I'm not familiar with the lsd system.)

Yes, it does. Twelve pence to the shilling, so 128 pence is 10/8d.

Henslowe figures in "Shakespeare in Love", doesn't he? I didn't know his diaries were still extant.


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At 12:55 05/04/2003 +1200, you wrote:
>Nope, same situcation as dvd players for the tv. As in some will allow you
>to to play multi regional but mine will only allow 4 changes. That's not 4
>regions, more like 1, 2, 1, 2 and from then on it will only play 2.

There is a way round that, in that you can update the internal DVD drive 
software (otherwise known as 'firmware') to a region free version. In the 
case of DVD players that on the face of things are region fixed, you can 
frequently change that using the remote control. Take a look at 
http://www.dvdrhelp.com/dvdhacks and see if your DVD player is listed, if 
it is there will also be a hack to change region or make it region free.

If anyone wants more info please email me off list.

Lissa

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Subject: [h-cost] Henslowe's Diary was - more on Cloth of Gold and Silver
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Henslowe's diary is in print in a couple of versions.  A large (very)
facsimile version, hand written of course and edited by R. A. Foakes printed
in 1977 and a version in typeface edited by R. A. Foakes & R. T. Rickert
including supplementary material printed in 1961.  I came across it in my
search for info on starch as Henslowe had a starch making operation and was
chuffed to find that his initial financial and logistical arrangements for
the operation included "grownd to keppe hogge".  This was consistent with my
other findings that starch makers had complementary businesses raising pigs
which could eat the fermented bran, a waste produce of starch making.  The
book is loaded with garment descriptions and other items pawned or used for
theatrical costumes.  An overlooked source for costumers!!!!

Lisa


----- Original Message -----
From: "Kate M Bunting" <K.M.Bunting@derby.ac.uk>
To: <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Monday, April 07, 2003 1:30 AM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] more on Cloth of Gold and Silver


> Melanie wrote:
>
> Kate Bunting
> Library, University of Derby
>
> >>> 3.  Bowght the 18 of ap(r)ell 1598 xvj ownces of copelace
> >brad w(th) sylver & gowld cop at vjij d ownce...x s viij d
>
> >[Bought the 18th of April, 1598, 16 ounces of copper lace braid with
> >silver and gold copper at 8 pence an ounce:  10 shillings, 8 pence]
> >(Does that add up?  I'm not familiar with the lsd system.)
>
> Yes, it does. Twelve pence to the shilling, so 128 pence is 10/8d.
>
> Henslowe figures in "Shakespeare in Love", doesn't he? I didn't know his
diaries were still extant.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume


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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Mon Apr  7 09:16:19 2003
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From: "A.Thurman" <athurman@cybergal.com>
To: "Historic Costume List \(E-mail\)" <h-costume@indra.com>
Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2003 08:16:24 -0400
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Subject: [h-cost] Re: Pattern Material
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I have ironed my favorite patterns - yes, the original tissue pieces - to
fusible interfacing. It saves me the time of having to transfer the marks
and it holds up pretty well.

Additional note - sturdier patterns take up more space and I've found that
gallon-size Ziploc bags are excellent for holding the original pattern
folder/instructions and the permanent pattern pieces.

Allison
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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Mon Apr  7 09:21:27 2003
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Date: Mon, 07 Apr 2003 08:21:06 -0400
From: Brenda Bell <webwarren@earthlink.net>
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Subject: [h-cost] Wool in Modern American Clothing (WAS: Re: Surcoat fabric)
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Cathy Raymond responded to Heather Meadows:

>On Saturday 05 April 2003 01:29 pm, Heather Meadows wrote:
> > actually, a lot of people don't wear wool, or only have a sweater or
> > two out of it.  Most people I know stick to cottons for everyday wear -
> > I have to search long and hard to find good wool clothes casual enough
> > for everyday.
>
>A lot of Americans don't wear wool much.  Cotton, on the other hand, in a 
>wide
>variety of forms, is ubiquitous.

Which may have something to do with our cotton industry and cotton export 
industry?

>It's easy enough to find wool sweaters that are casual, but you're 
>right--most
>other wool clothing is more formal.  Suits, nice pants, or dresses not meant
>for everyday.

That depends on where you live, and the environment in which you work. 
While many offices have changed their dress codes to "business casual", 
many others have not. Most men in white-collar jobs still wear wool or 
wool-blend suits year-round. I still wear lined wool slacks to work on the 
coldest days of the year, and wool blazers as fall/spring jackets (I work 
in a shirts-and-chinos environment). When I'm in a cooler environment (the 
apartment gets quite chilly of a cold winter), you can bet I'm wearing wool 
or wool-blend sweaters and longjohns.


Brenda
webwarren@earthlink.net


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From: "Lisa Sinervo" <lisa-list@threadneedlest.com>
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Henslowe's Diary was - more on Cloth of Gold and Silver
Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2003 05:33:34 -0700
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oh, yes.......Jeffrey (Goeffrey?) Rush played Henslowe in Shakespeare in
Love.


----- Original Message -----
From: "Lisa Sinervo" <lisa-list@threadneedlest.com>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Monday, April 07, 2003 5:20 AM
Subject: [h-cost] Henslowe's Diary was - more on Cloth of Gold and Silver


> Henslowe's diary is in print in a couple of versions.  A large (very)
> facsimile version, hand written of course and edited by R. A. Foakes
printed
> in 1977 and a version in typeface edited by R. A. Foakes & R. T. Rickert
> including supplementary material printed in 1961.  I came across it in my
> search for info on starch as Henslowe had a starch making operation and
was
> chuffed to find that his initial financial and logistical arrangements for
> the operation included "grownd to keppe hogge".  This was consistent with
my
> other findings that starch makers had complementary businesses raising
pigs
> which could eat the fermented bran, a waste produce of starch making.  The
> book is loaded with garment descriptions and other items pawned or used
for
> theatrical costumes.  An overlooked source for costumers!!!!
>
> Lisa
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Kate M Bunting" <K.M.Bunting@derby.ac.uk>
> To: <h-costume@indra.com>
> Sent: Monday, April 07, 2003 1:30 AM
> Subject: Re: [h-cost] more on Cloth of Gold and Silver
>
>
> > Melanie wrote:
> >
> > Kate Bunting
> > Library, University of Derby
> >
> > >>> 3.  Bowght the 18 of ap(r)ell 1598 xvj ownces of copelace
> > >brad w(th) sylver & gowld cop at vjij d ownce...x s viij d
> >
> > >[Bought the 18th of April, 1598, 16 ounces of copper lace braid with
> > >silver and gold copper at 8 pence an ounce:  10 shillings, 8 pence]
> > >(Does that add up?  I'm not familiar with the lsd system.)
> >
> > Yes, it does. Twelve pence to the shilling, so 128 pence is 10/8d.
> >
> > Henslowe figures in "Shakespeare in Love", doesn't he? I didn't know his
> diaries were still extant.
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > h-costume mailing list
> > h-costume@mail.indra.com
> > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume


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Kate M Bunting wrote:
> 
> >[Bought the 18th of April, 1598, 16 ounces of copper lace braid with
> >silver and gold copper at 8 pence an ounce:  10 shillings, 8 pence]
> >(Does that add up?  I'm not familiar with the lsd system.)
> 
> Yes, it does. Twelve pence to the shilling, so 128 pence is 10/8d.

Oh, thanks!  Now, if you'll tell me how many shillings to the pound,
I'll be set!  

> Henslowe figures in "Shakespeare in Love", doesn't he? I didn't know his diaries were still extant.

His "diary" is really an accounts book rather than a narrative, but as
Lisa mentioned, it has all sorts of wonderful details in it (though of
course not nearly as many as we'd LIKE to have!).  It runs from roughly
1593-1604.  I have the second edition of the 1961 (typeface) version,
which came out in 2002.  While I am getting pretty good at reading
16th-century English (read enough Chaucer, and Henslowe is clear as a
bell!), the actual handwriting would probably defeat me.

Melanie Schuessler
http://www.faucet.net/costume
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Lisa Sinervo wrote:
> 
> Henslowe's diary is in print in a couple of versions.<...>I came across it in my
> search for info on starch as Henslowe had a starch making operation and was
> chuffed to find that his initial financial and logistical arrangements for
> the operation included "grownd to keppe hogge".  This was consistent with my
> other findings that starch makers had complementary businesses raising pigs
> which could eat the fermented bran, a waste produce of starch making.

That is fascinating, Lisa!  I can't wait to see your page when it's
ready.  I have been scanning for costuming info, but I'll have to go
back and look into the starch business.

> The book is loaded with garment descriptions and other items pawned or used for
> theatrical costumes.  An overlooked source for costumers!!!!

No doubt!  I just wish there was a little more to each entry--telling me
that he bought a white satin doublet for Mr. Jonnes just whets my appetite!

Melanie Schuessler
http://www.faucet.net/costume
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Date: Mon, 07 Apr 2003 08:34:34 -0400
From: Brenda Bell <webwarren@earthlink.net>
Subject: Wired supportasses (WAS: Re: [h-cost] Queen Anne Dress)
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Melanie Schuessler responds to Sue Clemenger:

> > I've seen pictures of an extant supportasse made of wire, wrapped in
> > thread (I think)...

>It's in the article I was going on about earlier:
>Three examples of late sixteenth and early seventeenth century neckwear,
>by Janet Arnold, in Waffen-und Kostumkunde, 1973, volume 15, pp. 109-124
>"A specimen survives in the Germanisches Nationalmuseum, with the lace
>still tacked to the supportasse, which is made of metal, probably iron,
>bound with sea-green silk (Plates 15 and 16). Round this is twisted a
>thin gold strip so that the struts have a striped effect. They are
>bound together at the intersections with fine gold wire (Plate 18)."
>It's very pretty, as the wire has been bent into decorative floral
>shapes in the spaces between the structural struts.

This sounds not too unfamiliar. There was a cotton "ruff" (actually a 
pleated-flat collar) with lace trim in the Metropolitan Museum of Art's 
"Extreme Beauty" exhibition last fall (unfortunately, it is not in the 
collection catalogue -- nor is it in the books with their usual listings of 
acquisitions, nor can it be found in their general database...). The one in 
the Met (acquisition number 30.135.156) is supposedly from 16th-century 
Italy. (Where in Italy, and how they're sure it's 16th-Century and cotton, 
are things I haven't been able to find out... yet?) As I recall (I don't 
have a copy of it), a sketch of such a supportasse, with identical frame, 
can be found in Norah Waugh's "The Cut of Men's Clothes 1600-1900" in her 
example of 1610-1620 (Diagram I. "A" at bottom of page.) The one I saw was 
not thread-wrapped, but the lengths and wraps of thin wires that appeared 
to secure the support-wire intersections were extended further down along 
and around the supporting wires.


Brenda
webwarren@earthlink.net


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From: "Lisa Sinervo" <lisa-list@threadneedlest.com>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Henslowe's Diary was - more on Cloth of Gold and Silver
Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2003 06:01:52 -0700
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Melanie,

The starch entry is on page 244 in the 1961 typeface edition - entry [204].
I'd have a hard time working straight off the fascimilie version too, but
using the typeface version and then seeing the fascsimile version works
pretty well.  I've scanned the fascimile version starch entry and will have
it on my web site so people can at least glimpse the original.   Then I
thought for my fripper's shop I would include the original entries for the
pawned wedding rings with their mottos.

A searchable Henslowe's diary would be sooooo nice!!!!

Lisa


----- Original Message -----
From: "Melanie Schuessler" <melanie@faucet.net>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Monday, April 07, 2003 7:33 AM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Henslowe's Diary was - more on Cloth of Gold and
Silver


> Lisa Sinervo wrote:
> >
> > Henslowe's diary is in print in a couple of versions.<...>I came across
it in my
> > search for info on starch as Henslowe had a starch making operation and
was
> > chuffed to find that his initial financial and logistical arrangements
for
> > the operation included "grownd to keppe hogge".  This was consistent
with my
> > other findings that starch makers had complementary businesses raising
pigs
> > which could eat the fermented bran, a waste produce of starch making.
>
> That is fascinating, Lisa!  I can't wait to see your page when it's
> ready.  I have been scanning for costuming info, but I'll have to go
> back and look into the starch business.
>
> > The book is loaded with garment descriptions and other items pawned or
used for
> > theatrical costumes.  An overlooked source for costumers!!!!
>
> No doubt!  I just wish there was a little more to each entry--telling me
> that he bought a white satin doublet for Mr. Jonnes just whets my
appetite!
>
> Melanie Schuessler
> http://www.faucet.net/costume
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume


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>> >[Bought the 18th of April, 1598, 16 ounces of copper lace braid with
>> >silver and gold copper at 8 pence an ounce:  10 shillings, 8 pence]
>> >(Does that add up?  I'm not familiar with the lsd system.)
>> > Yes, it does. Twelve pence to the shilling, so 128 pence is 10/8d.

>Oh, thanks!  Now, if you'll tell me how many shillings to the pound,
>I'll be set!  

Twenty.

Kate Bunting (feeling old, as I was brought up with the l.s.d. syslem)









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THANKS!!! I'll be scrounging around to see what is available in the 
sizes I need.
Ta
Carol
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From: Deredere Galbraith <triade@kabelfoon.nl>
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I was working on sleeves for my "wedding dress and I was wondering how I 
want it to display on a arts and sience competition of the SCA.
A dressstand would be nice but would never fit in our car with all the 
rest of the stuf.
Then I  got a funny idea.
Wouldn't it be nice to have a torso that you can blow up like a balloon?
Just put it in your costume and then blow it up to the right size....
And maby a hook on it so you can hang it.
I know you can buy them with only the schoulders....

Greetings,
        Deredere



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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Henslowe's Diary was - more on Cloth of Gold and Silver
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hmmmm....a post-Stubbes project.....hmmmmm ;-)
--sue

Lisa Sinervo wrote:
> 

> A searchable Henslowe's diary would be sooooo nice!!!!
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From: Drea Leed <drea@nospam>
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Pattern material
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> I use Archeitchts' tracing mylar.  This is only because I was able to
> salvage a couple of rolls of the stuff.  It's really tough, and takes
> pencil lines or pen lines very well, but it can't be folded and must be
> rolled, which takes up lots of space.  It's also quite difficult to pin it,
> and I have to use masking tape to hold pieces of it together, or pattern
> weights to hold it onto the cloth while I'm cutting.

For patterns of tracing mylar or posterboard, I hang them up on a clothing
rack rather than roll them.  You can get a lot of patterns hung in a quite
small area, and it also allows for long skirt/robe patterns to be stored
without folding.

Drea

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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: OT, movies
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In a message dated 4/6/2003 11:17:28 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
margo@margospatterns.com writes:


> Much as I despise censorship, I actually agree with this editing for
> artistic reasons.  The sex in the car scene seemed totally gratuitous to
> me, and lessened the poignancy of the ending.
> 

I thought the WHOLE FILM was gratuitus...:-P  Dumbest "epic" ever made. If 
you're gonna cut something, cut the plot and just let's see the ship sink. 
Rose and....what's his name [Leo]?...who cares?
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: OT, movies
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In a message dated 4/7/2003 4:27:09 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
K.M.Bunting@derby.ac.uk writes:


> but in the case of "Measure for Measure", 

This is one of my favorite Shakespeare plays. I know it has "problems" but it 
is a great drama. I wish they'd perform it more. I, of course, have it all 
designed....to look like a Vermeer painting.
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AlbertCat wrote:

>> Much as I despise censorship, I actually agree with this editing for
>> artistic reasons.  The sex in the car scene seemed totally gratuitous to
>> me, and lessened the poignancy of the ending.
> 
>I thought the WHOLE FILM was gratuitus...:-P  Dumbest "epic" ever >made. If you're gonna cut something, cut the plot and just let's see the ship >sink. 
>Rose and....what's his name [Leo]?...who cares?

I haven't seen the film, but I heard Martin Jarvis (veteran British TV actor who played a supporting role) say on the radio that there were so many amazing true stories about passengers on the Titanic that he wondered why they'd bothered to invent one.



Kate Bunting
Library, University of Derby


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>Wouldn't it be nice to have a torso that you can blow up like a balloon?
>Just put it in your costume and then blow it up to the right size....
>And maby a hook on it so you can hang it.
>I know you can buy them with only the schoulders....

There is such a thing, at least there used to be 15 years ago when I was
working in the bridal business.  Maybe a bridal store could order one for you?

Margo

"One Tough Costumer"
http://www.margospatterns.com
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Subject: [h-cost] Pattern Material
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I've had success with the thin plastic table cloths that people use on 
picnic tables or for parties.  It comes in a variety of colors - sometimes 
can be useful to differentiate different pieces.  It's thin and durable 
enough that I can write on it with a felt tip pen and can fold it up easily.
It works great!

:) jessica


>I need some advice/help. I have several patterns that I use a *lot*
>and the newsprint is getting old and raggy--time to re-cut another
>copy. What material do y'all use to make patterns that you use and
>reuse. For small parts I use something strong like 1/4 luan or heavy
>cardboard. This is *not* practical for bigger pieces...
>
>Thanks
>Carol
>
>------------------------------

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From: sylvia <sylvia@ntw.net>
To: Costumers manifesto <TheCostumersManifesto@yahoogroups.com>,
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Subject: [h-cost] Vintage stores in Southern CA
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I will be going to California soon to costume a play which takes place in
the 1970s and am going to need to find s few pieces of clothing from that
decade.  Does anyone who lives in that area know of some good vintage
clothing stores there?  L.A., Orange County or anywhere in So. CA?

Sylvia

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From: Ron Carnegie <r.carnegie@verizon.net>
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: Re: [h-cost] Surcoat fabric-Statues and Orders for Apparel
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> 
> From: Kimiko Small <kimiko@kimiko1.com>
> Date: 2003/04/06 Sun PM 11:03:31 EDT
> To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Surcoat fabric-Statues and Orders for Apparel
> 
> Hi Mike T.
> 
> At 10:13 PM 4/6/2003 -0400, you wrote:
> >Hi. This illustrates precisely the difference between Historical costuming for
> >Renfaires and other aspects. In the US, Renfaires are theatrical events 
> >held in
> >(generally) the good weather months. Woolens are, therefore, although
> >historically accurate for the period, discouraged.
> 
> 


  Hey Mike,

     I got to disagree with this generalization.  I worked for two Renn Faires in California for 15 years.  These were the old LHC faires which started the phenomonon.  Not only was I not discouraged from wearing wool, I did wear it.  Hot weather or not.  My group (Maidenhead's Company of Shot) required it and our "Guild" encouraged it.  
> 

> 
> 
. Many 
> faire performers don't care if their outfit is "period" or not, so long as 
> it passes muster, which varies from group to group, or faire to faire.

  
> >Although many Faires are increasingly
> >bettering their clothing standards, they are still in the range of Theatrical
> >costuming moreso than historic recreation of the sort seen in many of the
> >reenactment groups.
> 
> I both agree and disagree. I have seen some faire people go to great 
> lengths to be as historically accurate as current information allows, and I 
> have seen some SCA re-enactors wear the most basic and inaccurate of 
> costumes (they are my friends, so I can comment). I think it depends on the 
> person as to how authentic they want to be.
> 
> 
> But many of faire people do create and wear garments that they know will be 
> under close scrutiny by the audience. When customers are standing next to 
> you, they get to see everything you are wearing, or not. This is different 
> than true theatre, where you can do odd things to costumes to get it to 
> "look right" at a distance. Like bumpy plastic beads on a Tudor sleeve to 
> give it sparkle. I saw that on an old theater costume that was for sale. I 
> never would put that on a gown used at Faire.
> 
> I think there is a spectrum of accuracy in faire, in costume and in 
> performers. Some are there for the fun of it, some to provide history 
> lessons, and others to entertain.
> 
> I personally want to improve my knowledge of historical costumes so I can 
> improve the costumes I create for faire people. As much as possible, I want 
> the costumed actors to look like they stepped out of a painting. I have 
> seen some faire garb that do just that. But it all depends on the person.
> 
> Time to step off my soap box. Thanks for your time.
> 
> Kimiko
> 
   This is true Kimiko.  My old now defunct company WAS a reenactment group working through the Faire venue.  We were not alone in this.  Clan MacColin comes to mind readily.  The California Faires were also more authentic than many of theze Faires back in their later years but pre Bristol ownership.  They still had plenty of room for improvement however.

I remain,
Ron Carnegie

R.Carnegie@verizon.net
"Argue for your limitations, and they are yours."
             R. Bach

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Hi. Sorry if I touched a nerve, there :). I am aware that there are many different groups involved in Faires, and that some of them are trying to improve overall historical impression. Sad to say, however, they are, in my observation, too few and far between to justify stating that is more common than not. The Faires that I have seen in the past few years
(New Jersey at Somerset, New York at Sterling South, Pennsylvania and Maryland) have somewhat improved, and some, like Md., have associated reenactment groups with historical clothing standards. I know the Cali. Faires are much better in this respect than others. I still note, though, ideas that are mentioned, such as having the customers up close to you,
which would prevent some of the more obvious Theatrical costuming shortcuts (hot glue and knitted mail, for example), but still allow the wearing of all sorts of things that didn't exist back then. Don't take me wrong, I am thrilled to know that the situation is improving, but I was just noting that it had a long way to go, and a lot of people to convince,
before the whole package can be considered Historical Costume moreso than Theatrical (only my opinion). Mike T.


>
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Carol wrote:

<<I need some advice/help. I have several patterns
that I use a *lot* 
and the newsprint is getting old and raggy--time to
re-cut another 
copy. What material do y'all use to make patterns that
you use and 
reuse. For small parts I use something strong like 1/4
luan or heavy 
cardboard. This is *not* practical for bigger
pieces...>>

I use the lightweight pellon with the red dots on it
that is usually used for drafting patterns. I've found
it is light enough to be folded easily, but stands up
to repeated use.

Dawn
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From: "Angharad ver' Reynulf" <dragonwolfcat@yahoo.com>
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Subject: [h-cost] New book *gloat*
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My boss went to Williamsburg while on his week+ trip
to Washington D.C. for a conference last month and
today brought me in the present he bought for me.

_Eighteenth-Century Clothing at Williamsburg_ by Linda
Baumgarten.

*grin*

It is *SO* hard to not look at the book instead of
typing up proposals and requests for proposals, but I
had to pop on long enough to share with people who
would understand the joy.

Angharat/Jonnalyhn 

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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: OT, movies
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In a message dated 4/7/2003 11:04:57 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
K.M.Bunting@derby.ac.uk writes:


> I haven't seen the film, but I heard Martin Jarvis (veteran British TV actor 
> who played a supporting role) say on the radio that there were so many 
> amazing true stories about passengers on the Titanic that he wondered why 
> they'd bothered to invent one.
> 
> 

This is EGG-ZACTLY what I asked myself when the film came out. They reproduce 
the china and silverware....and then make up a bunch of crap about 
passengers. What the.....?
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Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2003 10:43:22 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jacobson Dawn <dme_maud@pacbell.net>
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Subject: [h-cost] Help with tree costumes
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Help! I'm acting as wardrobe mistress for our school's
production of "Oz" in late May, and when I talked to
our drama teacher this morning, he mentioned that he
needs 3 tree costumes and 2 crow costumes. The crows
are no problem; I had those sketched out in a couple
of minutes, and know exactly how to build them. But
trees? I'm drawing a blank.

Anybody got any ideas on how to build a tree for
little money and less time? It has to be approximately
small adult size (these are high school students).

Any suggestions are greatly appreciated.

Dawn




=====
Dawn Jacobson
Vallejo, CA, USA

Learn the rules well, so you can break them properly.
--Dalai Lama
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Date: Mon, 07 Apr 2003 10:49:58 -0700
From: Kimiko Small <kimiko@kimiko1.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Help with tree costumes
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At 10:43 AM 4/7/2003 -0700, you wrote:
>Anybody got any ideas on how to build a tree for
>little money and less time? It has to be approximately
>small adult size (these are high school students).


Felt with the old zigzag tree outline motif, like the ones you see on kids 
Christmas cards? Cut a hole for the face. Or is that too juvenile?

Camouflage outfits with dead branches sticking all over the place? Or is 
that too military?

That's two I thought of off the top of my head. Wish I had more ideas for you.

Kimiko


Kimiko Small
Costumer, Fiber Artist, Web Designer, Wife and Mother
kimiko@kimiko1.com; http://www.kimiko1.com

Graphic Intern at Costume Gallery
http://www.costumegallery.com

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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Help with tree costumes
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> At 10:43 AM 4/7/2003 -0700, you wrote:
> >Anybody got any ideas on how to build a tree for
> >little money and less time? It has to be approximately
> >small adult size (these are high school students).

     Is it a funny tree or a scary tree?  A "character" that needs a face and 
emotions, or a piece of scenery that moves a bit?

     I was thinking brown corduroy (or burlap) clothing and green afro wigs, 
with something similar on the hands.  That might look silly, which may or may 
not work for the production.

     -Carol

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> Help! I'm acting as wardrobe mistress for our school's
> production of "Oz" in late May, and when I talked to
> our drama teacher this morning, he mentioned that he
> needs 3 tree costumes and 2 crow costumes. The crows
> are no problem; I had those sketched out in a couple
> of minutes, and know exactly how to build them. But
> trees? I'm drawing a blank.
>
> Anybody got any ideas on how to build a tree for
> little money and less time? It has to be approximately
> small adult size (these are high school students).
>
> Any suggestions are greatly appreciated.

Dawn,

I would make the body into a tube-style floor length dress with black
marks that look like knots and bark.  For the arms, large tubes of the
body material with gloves that have felt leaves attached to them.  For the
top, I would make a hood-style hat that is more of a cylinder.  Then I
would make the top bushy with more felt leaves on it.

Could you visualize my ideas?

Sounds like a fun project.  Good luck!

Diana


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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Help with tree costumes
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Status: RO

spray painted carpet foam (the padding) makes an EXCELLENT structure
for 'soft' costumes.


On Monday, April 7, 2003, at 10:59 AM, <aquazoo@patriot.net> wrote:

>> At 10:43 AM 4/7/2003 -0700, you wrote:
>>> Anybody got any ideas on how to build a tree for
>>> little money and less time? It has to be approximately
>>> small adult size (these are high school students).
>
>      Is it a funny tree or a scary tree?  A "character" that needs a 
> face and
> emotions, or a piece of scenery that moves a bit?
>
>      I was thinking brown corduroy (or burlap) clothing and green afro 
> wigs,
> with something similar on the hands.  That might look silly, which may 
> or may
> not work for the production.
>
>      -Carol
>
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
>

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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Help with tree costumes
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I found a brown rib knit in the bargain fabrics and made tubes from head
to toe.  Made a cylinder of 1" foam rubber to go around the head of the
actress--shaped it for the shoulders and cut out a hole for the face....
so the foam went from about the collar bone to just above the top of the
head.  Using the spray adhesive from an uphostery store that works like
a contact cement on foam, I glued the top 12" or so of the brown knit
all around the cylinder of foam.  Cut the knit from center of face-hole
to edge an fold the flaps inside (you can stitch these)  Folding the
flaps of knit to the inside not only covers the visable foam but also
protects the actor's face a little from friction.  Cut slits at the
sides of the knit from should to underarm (approximately 7-8"). make
branch/sleeves.  I took 10" strip of fabric that went from fingertip to
fingertip, folded length-wise, sewed the length of the arm from each end
and cut a lengthwise slit in the middle for the head....also put a loop
of elastic on the end of each 'branch'-sleeve to go around a finger to
help hold it in place.  Put the sleeve-branches on the actor (head thru
slit); then slide the long trunk tube over the head (actor needs to have
arms over head to do this easily)---actor puts arm-branches thru slit in
trunk and rest foam cylinder-collar on shoulders.  Now you can add real
or fake branches to the head and to gauntlet gloves if you want.  If the
fabric is too plain, paint bark on it.  Anyway, your actor can move and
bend and throw apples at Dorothy and see...can't walk with big steps,
but you can't have everything!
I've also made trees out of foam cutouts--back and front, with hole for
face and slits for arms---sort of like a sandwich-board.
Kate

Jacobson Dawn wrote:

> Help! I'm acting as wardrobe mistress for our school's
> production of "Oz" in late May, and when I talked to
> our drama teacher this morning, he mentioned that he
> needs 3 tree costumes and 2 crow costumes. The crows
> are no problem; I had those sketched out in a couple
> of minutes, and know exactly how to build them. But
> trees? I'm drawing a blank.
>
> Anybody got any ideas on how to build a tree for
> little money and less time? It has to be approximately
> small adult size (these are high school students).
>
> Any suggestions are greatly appreciated.
>
> Dawn
>
> =====
> Dawn Jacobson
> Vallejo, CA, USA
>
> Learn the rules well, so you can break them properly.
> --Dalai Lama
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Help with tree costumes
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In a message dated 4/7/2003 1:43:45 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
dme_maud@pacbell.net writes:


> Anybody got any ideas on how to build a tree for
> little money and less time? It has to be approximately
> small adult size (these are high school students).
> 

Remember, If you cannot hide it, feature it.

Cut some trees [good looking, art-sy....go to some artists that "fit" the 
show...maybe Thomas Hart Benton   <A HREF="http://www.artcyclopedia.com/artists/benton_thomas_hart.html">Thomas Hart Benton Online</A>   and 'steal" a 
tree and it's look] out of furniture boxes...or Luan [sp] or old fake 
paneling in someone's scrap heap. Paint them. Put real leaves on them [paint 
them with clear glue]...they need not last that long. Have the actors carry 
them on and stand behind them [feature it] and put their heads through holes 
in the trunks.


Or put the actors in long sleeved turtlenecks and pants [Goodwill anyone?] 
painted to look like tree bark and have them hold a leafy branch in each 
hand...maybe a "crown" of branches too. Again, they could be real but you may 
have to have fresh ones every night of performance.

[Of course for it to REALLY REALLY work, you must have similar types of 
"effects" throughout the show....perhaps always done by the same people. How 
are you doing the tornado? Is it "the Wiz" that had a dancer in a brown/grey 
unitard with a swirling silk chiffon of the same color headpiece that when up 
into the flies? What other "natural" phenomenon could people in suggestive 
costumes play?]


Have fun!
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Date: Mon, 07 Apr 2003 14:53:49 -0500
From: "Linda J. Thompson" <LindaJThompson@comcast.net>
Subject: [h-cost] Help with tree costumes
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Now this is a topic that I have had experience with...
Have done it in two shows now.
Dawn, go to....

http://corsetsandcostumes.com/PhotoAlbum/wizard_of_oz_2001.htm

And in the middle of the page (lots of pics)  you will see some trees.
They danced and threw apples around..

Trees: tops are painted fabric with an aluminum wire perimeter. (they were much bigger to 
start and better shaped, but then we had to cut them waaaay back to get past the side 
aprons)  We velcro'd apples on them so they could be pulled off and thrown.
The wire is attached to a 1/2 or 3/4 inch pvc pipe, that is long enough to slide down into 
a harness that each actor wore.
Trunks:  We bought headliner foam.  This is 1/8 inch foam that is backed by nylon (or vice 
versa).. It is commonly used in the ceilings of cars I think?  Anyway we got ours at 
Hancock Fabrics.  We purchased a dark charcoal grey and a brown.  We painted them laying 
flat on the ground, using sponges and brushes... made them all streaky like old bark and 
gave them lots of texture.   Cut each into sections, 1 for the body, and 2 pieces for the 
arms/branches....
Then we put actors into the harnesses with the tops, and wrapped foam around them to 
cover, leaving enough room to move, and using spray adhesive actually glued the tree trunk 
to the poles while the actors were in them. We them trimmed the bottoms so they could 
walk.  Marked where we needed to put the holes for the arms/branches..
We bought brown cotton garden gloves for the small branches.. We then glued foam pieces to 
  the back of the hands, and twisted pieces on the fingers.

The backs of the trunks were closed using lots of velcro... and we hand sewed the arms in 
along with using spray adhesive.
-- 
Linda Thompson

Attitude Is Everything
http://corsetsandcostumes.com


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If you made a light duct tape double casing and filled it with the spray in 
foam stuff once you got there, you'd only have to pack the flat empty double 
and a can of foam.  I haven't figured out how to colapse it to go home, but 
maybe it could just be disposable.  I'm going to have my hubby help me make 
a couple to take pictures of my gowns so they don't always have that "Hanger 
flat" look.



Jennifer Sena
Distant Designs
http://home.teleport.com/~cedric/distdesi

I wont hurt you, I just want to dress you up!!





>From: Deredere Galbraith <triade@kabelfoon.nl>
>Reply-To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
>To: H-Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
>Subject: [h-cost] Dress form
>Date: Mon, 07 Apr 2003 15:53:59 +0200
>
>I was working on sleeves for my "wedding dress and I was wondering how I 
>want it to display on a arts and sience competition of the SCA.
>A dressstand would be nice but would never fit in our car with all the rest 
>of the stuf.
>Then I  got a funny idea.
>Wouldn't it be nice to have a torso that you can blow up like a balloon?
>Just put it in your costume and then blow it up to the right size....
>And maby a hook on it so you can hang it.
>I know you can buy them with only the schoulders....
>
>Greetings,
>        Deredere
>
>
>
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> I thought the WHOLE FILM was gratuitus...:-P  Dumbest "epic" ever made. If
> you're gonna cut something, cut the plot and just let's see the ship sink.
> Rose and....what's his name [Leo]?...who cares?<<

Apparently I'm not the only person who has never felt any burning need to
see this film!

Dianne

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Hmm... I thought it was good entertainment, I saw it in a movie theatre
during the huge ice storm that struck Montreal area that year (the movie
theatre had electricity, we hadn't had any for 36 hours). Never understood
the whole Titanic craze that surrounded the movie though, it just wasn't
worth it. Probably happened because of Leo's pretty face. I saw it mostly
for the special effects and re-creation efforts. I wasn't expecting much in
terms of depth of story (I put that movie in the same category as Tornado
and such other nonsense - good entertainment if you're not looking for more
depth - good for embroidery or sewing, good after a couple beers, good when
you're really tired and don't want to think about what you're seeing). I
guess that's why I wasn't disappointed :-)

----- Original Message -----
From: "Dianne and Greg Stucki" <goofy1@suscom.net>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Monday, April 07, 2003 4:14 PM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: OT, movies


>
> > I thought the WHOLE FILM was gratuitus...:-P  Dumbest "epic" ever made.
If
> > you're gonna cut something, cut the plot and just let's see the ship
sink.
> > Rose and....what's his name [Leo]?...who cares?<<
>
> Apparently I'm not the only person who has never felt any burning need to
> see this film!
>
> Dianne
>
> /listinfo/h-costume
>
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
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>
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Surcoat fabric
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Well of course, because they were shorter then and the heat just rose right 
over their heads.   JUST KIDDING!



Nancy Kiel
nancy_kiel@hotmail.com
Never tease a weasel!
This is very good advice.
For the weasel will not like it
And teasing isn't nice.





>From: "Kate M Bunting" <K.M.Bunting@derby.ac.uk>
>Reply-To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
>To: <h-costume@indra.com>
>Subject: Re: [h-cost] Surcoat fabric
>Date: Mon, 07 Apr 2003 09:26:20 +0100
>
>Chris Laning wrote:
> > An amusing story -- someone from my
> >guild was transferred by his company to England for three years, and
> >he took his Elizabethan clothing with him. He says he quickly
> >discovered _why_ the Elizabethans wore all those layers of wool --
> >his comment was "It gets bloody COLD over there!" <g>
>
>And, of course,  probably got colder still in the 16th century.
>
>
>
>
>Kate Bunting
>Library, University of Derby
>
>
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My problem with rayon velvet is that it crushes.  I had a skirt of rayon 
velvet and rode in a car with a patterned vinyl seat, and ever afterward, 
steam I never so much, I had a skirt with a patterned seat.  You have to be 
careful buying "silk" velvet these days, as it is often 15-20% silk and the 
rest rayon.  Also, I believe cotton isn't used in period as we use it today, 
and would have been on the costly side, so linen would be a better choice 
than cotton (though not for a surcoat).  Has anyone looked through 
wills/inventories to find out what surcoats were made of (if such items are 
listed)?



Nancy Kiel
nancy_kiel@hotmail.com
Never tease a weasel!
This is very good advice.
For the weasel will not like it
And teasing isn't nice.





>From: Kimiko Small <kimiko@kimiko1.com>
>
>But cotton for nobles just doesn't look right, unless it is cotton 
>velveteen. There is debate as to whether it is better to use cotton 
>velveteen or silk/rayon velvet for nobles dresses. I prefer cotton as it is 
>cheaper and holds up to wear ok. Silk/Rayon, while beautiful, is too 
>expensive to put through the wringer of faire abuse. There is also debate I 
>have heard about how it is too "shiny" to use for the time period. I still 
>plan on making a garment with it sometime soon, however.


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Subject: [h-cost] Napoleon on A&E
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Just a reminder that the Napoleon miniseries starts tomorrow (April 8)
on A&E.  The website is interesting.

http://aetv.com/tv/shows/napoleon/nap_home.html

Katy Bishop, Vintage Victorian
vintage@shore.net                www.VintageVictorian.com
     Custom reproduction gowns of the Victorian Era.
      Publisher of the Vintage Dress Series books.

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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: OT, movies
From: sylvia <sylvia@ntw.net>
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on 4/7/03 2:14 PM, Dianne and Greg Stucki at goofy1@suscom.net wrote:

> 
>> I thought the WHOLE FILM was gratuitus...:-P  Dumbest "epic" ever made. If
>> you're gonna cut something, cut the plot and just let's see the ship sink.
>> Rose and....what's his name [Leo]?...who cares?<<
> 
> Apparently I'm not the only person who has never felt any burning need to
> see this film!
> 
>No, don't waste your money, even if it's only .99 at the discount video store.

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Date: Mon, 07 Apr 2003 17:18:30 -0500
From: Allison <allivox@comcast.net>
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Subject: [h-cost] Re: tree costumes
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Hello, Dawn!

I recently made a tree costume for a child of about 6.  I had a little more
than a week to do it along with a couple of other odd costumes. (a rock and
a sun)  What I ended up was perfect for their needs (a TV commercial in
which the kids are in a school play with homemade costumes...) but with a
little more refinement it could actually be very nice!

The only problem you might encounter is with the body sizes, but you can use
my technique and go from there.  I used a tomato cage (3 metal rings of
graduated size held together by 3 vertical metal rods, making a cone shape,
open at both ends.)  Have your actor stand with his arms straight up and,
holding the cage upside down (wide end at the bottom,) slide the cage over
his head, putting his arms through the widest section between the top and
middle ring.  Lower his arms.  The widest ring should be around his
torso/chest, the middle ring should sit on his shoulders, and the smallest
ring should be somewhere around his forehead.  Then make a sort of harness
for his shoulders so the form will be more stable and won't dig into his
shoulders.  I can't remember exactly how I did it, but here goes:  I made
shoulder straps by taping from the circular piece on his shoulders to the
front of his shoulders.  (The weight of the structure now supported by the
duct tape vee from center back to front of shoulders.)  From there I made
some armhole-like openings with more duct tape - the purpose being to make
the structure stable on the actors' body, but not add too much weight and
still allow the finished piece to be slipped over the head.  Oh, yeah, I
remember making a sort of forehead band also, for added stability.  (Like
that machine they put you in at the eye doctor - where you snug your
forehead up to the band while they do scary things to your eyes.)

When I got the cage to fit securely enough, I wrapped chicken wire around
the cage to about upper-thigh-level - wanted it to be long enough so it
wouldn't be top-heavy, but still allow the actor to walk. Then I made
chicken-wire branches and attached them to the chicken wire base.  When the
tree form was finished, I cut out arm holes and a face hole, and bound those
edges and the other interior places where the wire had been cut with more
duct tape so there were no pointy parts to hurt the little guy.  (About the
arm-holes - they may not be necessary for you - I did them so the child
would have as much free movement as possible, for safety's sake!)

Then I papier-mached and painted the whole thing, and used tissue paper for
leaves.  (Remember, this was supposed to look like daddy made it in the
garage...)  Actually, at first I tried using burlap dipped in liquid starch,
but that was a very bad choice (too heavy, wouldn't stick to itself, REALLY
messy, took forever to dry,) so I pulled that off and used strips pf
newspaper and watered-down Elmer's, and I got just as much texture and a
lighter weight.

So - hope this is of some use to you.  Please forgive the less-than-perfect
directions, but at least the basics are there.  Please email me if you have
any questions! I love these sorts of projects!

Good luck!!

Allison

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Is there some reason why we seem to expect that velvet (rayon or otherwise)
will always look as well as it seems to look in the paintings...without
wrinkles or use distortions? Even in my 20th Century collection pieces, silk
velvet still exhibits 'character' that you would expect of a garment that
was worn and 'used'. I have come to see this as 'of the nature of velvet'.
Some of my examples from the 19th century that are untested but could be of
either silk or cotton tend to stand up better in the long run; but then
these are also garments that probably were used for purposes that were less
injurious for their general appearance. Because it wears better for most
part, my preference for such things  applique is to go with velveteen. It is
easier to work with re cutting and turning prep for sewing.  Also it holds
its color better with light exposure.
Kathleen
----- Original Message -----
From: "Nancy Kiel" <nancy_kiel@hotmail.com>
To: <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Monday, April 07, 2003 5:20 PM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Surcoat fabric-Statues and Orders for Apparel


> My problem with rayon velvet is that it crushes.  I had a skirt of rayon
> velvet and rode in a car with a patterned vinyl seat, and ever afterward,
> steam I never so much, I had a skirt with a patterned seat.  You have to
be
> careful buying "silk" velvet these days, as it is often 15-20% silk and
the
> rest rayon.  Also, I believe cotton isn't used in period as we use it
today,
> and would have been on the costly side, so linen would be a better choice
> than cotton (though not for a surcoat).  Has anyone looked through
> wills/inventories to find out what surcoats were made of (if such items
are
> listed)?
>
>
>
> Nancy Kiel
> nancy_kiel@hotmail.com
> Never tease a weasel!
> This is very good advice.
> For the weasel will not like it
> And teasing isn't nice.
>
>
>
>
>
> >From: Kimiko Small <kimiko@kimiko1.com>
> >
> >But cotton for nobles just doesn't look right, unless it is cotton
> >velveteen. There is debate as to whether it is better to use cotton
> >velveteen or silk/rayon velvet for nobles dresses. I prefer cotton as it
is
> >cheaper and holds up to wear ok. Silk/Rayon, while beautiful, is too
> >expensive to put through the wringer of faire abuse. There is also debate
I
> >have heard about how it is too "shiny" to use for the time period. I
still
> >plan on making a garment with it sometime soon, however.
>
>
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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: OT, movies
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Dianne and Greg Stucki wrote:

> > I thought the WHOLE FILM was gratuitus...:-P  Dumbest "epic" ever made. If
> > you're gonna cut something, cut the plot and just let's see the ship sink.
> > Rose and....what's his name [Leo]?...who cares?<<
>
> Apparently I'm not the only person who has never felt any burning need to
> see this film!
>
>

No, no you're not *grin*

Claire


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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Mon Apr  7 19:49:42 2003
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Date: Mon, 07 Apr 2003 16:47:55 -0600
From: sylvia <sylvia@ntw.net>
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Subject: [h-cost] Titanic
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I have to partially retract what I said about this dreadful movie.  I said
not to waste your money on it, but sometimes I feel the need to see bad
movies and TV shows that are so extremely popular just so that I stay in
touch with the pulse of our  culture and am not out of the loop. so to
speak.  Which is a sad commentary on our culture, isn't it?

And then there's always the reason to see a movie because of the costumes.

Sylvia Rognstad, another mother for peace
-- 
Divinity Designs and Emeralds
http://www.d-e-designs.com



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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Sheryl Nance-Durst <sherylnd@kc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] New book *gloat*
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Now that's a boss I could love!

Sheryl Nance-Durst

At 10:37 AM 4/7/03 -0700, you wrote:
>My boss went to Williamsburg while on his week+ trip
>to Washington D.C. for a conference last month and
>today brought me in the present he bought for me.
>
>_Eighteenth-Century Clothing at Williamsburg_ by Linda
>Baumgarten.
>
>*grin*
>
>Angharat/Jonnalyhn


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From: Kimiko Small <kimiko@kimiko1.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Titanic
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At 04:47 PM 4/7/2003 -0600, you wrote:
>And then there's always the reason to see a movie because of the costumes.

Personally, I enjoyed the movie. I took it for what it was, entertainment 
on a Christmas Day with my boyfriend (now husband), cried at the tear 
jerkers, enjoyed the storyline, loved all the dresses, and when I went home 
I did some more research into the real story of the Titanic.

I even bought the movie book so I could look at the dresses better. As a 
full sized woman, I appreciate Kathy Bates' outfits. To look so good as a 
fuller woman in that era of clothing.

I have realized that most movies will never be as good as the original, 
whether it is the original story, original book, or even original short 
story fiction (like Children of the Corn). But a movie is good to spend a 
few hours in entertainment, and especially to drool over the costumes.

My perspective anyway.

Kimiko



Kimiko Small
Costumer, Fiber Artist, Web Designer, Wife and Mother
kimiko@kimiko1.com; http://www.kimiko1.com

Graphic Intern at Costume Gallery
http://www.costumegallery.com

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>
>It seems to me that there are plenty of places to order online or don't
>you guys agree?
>
>Diana

But of course, you cannot touch the fabric and find the exact hand and 
texture until you order it.

Jennifer


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From: "Lloyd Mitchell" <rmitchell@washjeff.edu>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
References: <BAB76366.7CA5%allivox@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: tree costumes
Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2003 21:18:52 -0400
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What a great solution, Allison! This sounds like one of those 'fairy wand'
things ...making do with what you have on hand.  Did you flare the top for
the branches?
Kathleen
----- Original Message -----
From: "Allison" <allivox@comcast.net>
To: <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Monday, April 07, 2003 6:18 PM
Subject: [h-cost] Re: tree costumes


> Hello, Dawn!
>
> I recently made a tree costume for a child of about 6.  I had a little
more
> than a week to do it along with a couple of other odd costumes. (a rock
and
> a sun)  What I ended up was perfect for their needs (a TV commercial in
> which the kids are in a school play with homemade costumes...) but with a
> little more refinement it could actually be very nice!
>
> The only problem you might encounter is with the body sizes, but you can
use
> my technique and go from there.  I used a tomato cage (3 metal rings of
> graduated size held together by 3 vertical metal rods, making a cone
shape,
> open at both ends.)  Have your actor stand with his arms straight up and,
> holding the cage upside down (wide end at the bottom,) slide the cage over
> his head, putting his arms through the widest section between the top and
> middle ring.  Lower his arms.  The widest ring should be around his
> torso/chest, the middle ring should sit on his shoulders, and the smallest
> ring should be somewhere around his forehead.  Then make a sort of harness
> for his shoulders so the form will be more stable and won't dig into his
> shoulders.  I can't remember exactly how I did it, but here goes:  I made
> shoulder straps by taping from the circular piece on his shoulders to the
> front of his shoulders.  (The weight of the structure now supported by the
> duct tape vee from center back to front of shoulders.)  From there I made
> some armhole-like openings with more duct tape - the purpose being to make
> the structure stable on the actors' body, but not add too much weight and
> still allow the finished piece to be slipped over the head.  Oh, yeah, I
> remember making a sort of forehead band also, for added stability.  (Like
> that machine they put you in at the eye doctor - where you snug your
> forehead up to the band while they do scary things to your eyes.)
>
> When I got the cage to fit securely enough, I wrapped chicken wire around
> the cage to about upper-thigh-level - wanted it to be long enough so it
> wouldn't be top-heavy, but still allow the actor to walk. Then I made
> chicken-wire branches and attached them to the chicken wire base.  When
the
> tree form was finished, I cut out arm holes and a face hole, and bound
those
> edges and the other interior places where the wire had been cut with more
> duct tape so there were no pointy parts to hurt the little guy.  (About
the
> arm-holes - they may not be necessary for you - I did them so the child
> would have as much free movement as possible, for safety's sake!)
>
> Then I papier-mached and painted the whole thing, and used tissue paper
for
> leaves.  (Remember, this was supposed to look like daddy made it in the
> garage...)  Actually, at first I tried using burlap dipped in liquid
starch,
> but that was a very bad choice (too heavy, wouldn't stick to itself,
REALLY
> messy, took forever to dry,) so I pulled that off and used strips pf
> newspaper and watered-down Elmer's, and I got just as much texture and a
> lighter weight.
>
> So - hope this is of some use to you.  Please forgive the
less-than-perfect
> directions, but at least the basics are there.  Please email me if you
have
> any questions! I love these sorts of projects!
>
> Good luck!!
>
> Allison
>
> _______________________________________________
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>

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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Pattern Material
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For pattern tracing, I use non-woven pattern tracing paper from fabric.com.  
It's thin enough to be lightweight and see-through, but it won't disintegrate 
after just a few uses, is pinnable, and not terribly expensive.  I bought a 
50-yard bolt of it, and (in my size at least) I can even fit Margo's skirt 
patterns on one width (46") rather than needing to piece anything together.  
It's really nice to be able to do that.  It's easy to cut, too.

Christine
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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: OT, movies
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Nope.  I've never seen it either, and don't intend to....
--sue

Dianne Stucki wrote:
> 
> > I thought the WHOLE FILM was gratuitus...:-P  Dumbest "epic" ever made. If
> > you're gonna cut something, cut the plot and just let's see the ship sink.
> > Rose and....what's his name [Leo]?...who cares?<<
> 
> Apparently I'm not the only person who has never felt any burning need to
> see this film!
>
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From: Catherine Olanich Raymond <cathy@thyrsus.com>
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: OT, movies
Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2003 21:35:14 -0500
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On Monday 07 April 2003 04:39 pm, Audrey Bergeron-Morin wrote:
> Hmm... I thought it was good entertainment, 

Agreed.

>I saw it in a movie theatre
> during the huge ice storm that struck Montreal area that year (the movie
> theatre had electricity, we hadn't had any for 36 hours). Never understood
> the whole Titanic craze that surrounded the movie though, it just wasn't
> worth it. 

Me either.  It was a good movie with a simple story (I mean the love story, 
not the sinking, not really) reasonably well told.

>Probably happened because of Leo's pretty face.

Never understood that, either.  Leo isn't *that* pretty, and his subsequent 
films have shown he's not that much of an actor, either.  But he had great 
chemistry with Winslet, and that made the love scenes much more convincing 
than they otherwise would have been.  


> I saw it mostly
> for the special effects and re-creation efforts.

Ditto.

> I wasn't expecting much in
> terms of depth of story (I put that movie in the same category as Tornado
> and such other nonsense - good entertainment if you're not looking for more
> depth - good for embroidery or sewing, good after a couple beers, good when
> you're really tired and don't want to think about what you're seeing). I
> guess that's why I wasn't disappointed :-)

Agreed.  :-)

-- 
Cathy Raymond <cathy@thyrsus.com>

"Intelligence is the ultimate aphrodisiac."  Timothy Leary

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From: Catherine Olanich Raymond <cathy@thyrsus.com>
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Wool in Modern American Clothing (WAS: Re: Surcoat
	fabric)
Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2003 21:42:57 -0500
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On Monday 07 April 2003 08:21 am, Brenda Bell wrote:
> Cathy Raymond responded to Heather Meadows:
> >On Saturday 05 April 2003 01:29 pm, Heather Meadows wrote:
> > > actually, a lot of people don't wear wool, or only have a sweater or
> > > two out of it.  Most people I know stick to cottons for everyday wear -
> > > I have to search long and hard to find good wool clothes casual enough
> > > for everyday.
> >
> >A lot of Americans don't wear wool much.  Cotton, on the other hand, in a
> >wide variety of forms, is ubiquitous.
>
> Which may have something to do with our cotton industry and cotton export
> industry?

Well, sure.  Since we are a cotton producing nation, cotton is easy to come 
by...QED.  :-)

> >It's easy enough to find wool sweaters that are casual, but you're
> >right--most
> >other wool clothing is more formal.  Suits, nice pants, or dresses not
> > meant for everyday.
>
> That depends on where you live, and the environment in which you work.
> While many offices have changed their dress codes to "business casual",
> many others have not. Most men in white-collar jobs still wear wool or
> wool-blend suits year-round. I still wear lined wool slacks to work on the
> coldest days of the year, and wool blazers as fall/spring jackets (I work
> in a shirts-and-chinos environment). 

This is all true, but I'm not sure I see the point of it.  As far as I'm 
concerned, the type of wool pants that go with "business casual" are still 
more formal than the everyday stuff I was thinking of.  

My office is "business casual" and I only wear wool slacks for formal 
occasions.  Of course, I don't live in the coldest part of the country, but I 
still prefer wearing tights under chinos or corduroy than pants I know I will 
have to dry clean if I spill something on them.

>When I'm in a cooler environment (the
> apartment gets quite chilly of a cold winter), you can bet I'm wearing wool
> or wool-blend sweaters and longjohns.

I'm sure. I hadn't been thinking about underwear, either.  (Though when I do 
wear long underwear, I prefer cotton waffle knits to wool.  Even smooth wools 
and most wool blends make me itch, after a while, if I'm wearing them 
directly against my skin.

-- 
Cathy Raymond <cathy@thyrsus.com>

"Intelligence is the ultimate aphrodisiac."  Timothy Leary

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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: OT, movies
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In a message dated 4/7/2003 9:24:04 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
mooncat@in-tch.com writes:


> Apparently I'm not the only person who has never felt any burning need to
> > see this film!
> 

I didn't see it either, but my best friend felt she ought to take her 
teen-aged daughter to see it.  The daughter was not impressed with Leo di 
Caprio--thought the fiance was better looking--and my friend said she started 
rooting for the North Atlantic before it was over.

With so many good real stories of the passengers, why did they feel compelled 
to make these up?  I wasn't really into costumes then, but I understand that 
"A Night to Remember" is much closer to fact, story-wise.

But, I have to admit, I really enjoyed "The Buccaneer," another movie loosely 
based on a real story, even though most of the story was wildly inaccurate 
and the costumes were pretty dreadful.  Maybe it was because I know the 
history so well that I could appreciate it as a comedy.

Ann Wass
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From: "Lisa Sinervo" <lisa-list@threadneedlest.com>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
References: 
	<se91453c.029@CSV6.derby.ac.uk><001301c2fd00$2493f9a0$1b0e77d8@pavilion><004601c2fd05$dcd36320$1b0e77d8@pavilion>
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Subject: [h-cost] 
	costume data bases was Henslowe's Diary was - more on Cloth of Gold
	and Silver
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Trust me, I've already thought of that!!  Melanie said she was putting
Henslowe into data base form already so I was a bit envious.  I am always
pressed for time. You know, I bet there would be some money in publishing
costume data bases, not just books.  It would be great to buy a CD by
fashion period, with the correct fabric samples, buttons, portraits
etc....... wouldn't that be grand!  Search by region, class.   I created a
few tables and forms for such a data base when I was working at a temp job
where I had nothing to do,  but haven't stated entering any data yet.  It
would come in pretty handy that's for sure.  Now, where did I see that
double ruff again????


Lisa


----- Original Message -----
From: "Sue Clemenger" <mooncat@in-tch.com>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Monday, April 07, 2003 7:17 AM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Henslowe's Diary was - more on Cloth of Gold and
Silver


> hmmmm....a post-Stubbes project.....hmmmmm ;-)
> --sue
>
> Lisa Sinervo wrote:
> >
>
> > A searchable Henslowe's diary would be sooooo nice!!!!
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Mon Apr  7 23:53:18 2003
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From: "Lisa Sinervo" <lisa-list@threadneedlest.com>
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References: <3.0.6.32.20030407081427.00836ec0@pop.directcon.net>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Dress form
Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2003 20:04:43 -0700
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you know, I suspect you could get one of those "blow up dress forms" from an
"adult shop".  Didn't Dudley Moore have one of those in "Foul Play"?

just trying to be helpful  :)

Lisa


----- Original Message -----
From: "Margo Anderson" <margo@margospatterns.com>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>; "H-Costume"
<h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Monday, April 07, 2003 8:14 AM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Dress form


>
> >Wouldn't it be nice to have a torso that you can blow up like a balloon?
> >Just put it in your costume and then blow it up to the right size....
> >And maby a hook on it so you can hang it.
> >I know you can buy them with only the schoulders....
>
> There is such a thing, at least there used to be 15 years ago when I was
> working in the bridal business.  Maybe a bridal store could order one for
you?
>
> Margo
>
> "One Tough Costumer"
> http://www.margospatterns.com
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume


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Try this:
http://www.ourbooklet.com/mannequins.htm
:-)

----- Original Message -----
From: "Lisa Sinervo" <lisa-list@threadneedlest.com>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Monday, April 07, 2003 11:04 PM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Dress form


> you know, I suspect you could get one of those "blow up dress forms" from
an
> "adult shop".  Didn't Dudley Moore have one of those in "Foul Play"?
>
> just trying to be helpful  :)
>
> Lisa
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Margo Anderson" <margo@margospatterns.com>
> To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>; "H-Costume"
> <h-costume@indra.com>
> Sent: Monday, April 07, 2003 8:14 AM
> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Dress form
>
>
> >
> > >Wouldn't it be nice to have a torso that you can blow up like a
balloon?
> > >Just put it in your costume and then blow it up to the right size....
> > >And maby a hook on it so you can hang it.
> > >I know you can buy them with only the schoulders....
> >
> > There is such a thing, at least there used to be 15 years ago when I was
> > working in the bridal business.  Maybe a bridal store could order one
for
> you?
> >
> > Margo
> >
> > "One Tough Costumer"
> > http://www.margospatterns.com
> > _______________________________________________
> > h-costume mailing list
> > h-costume@mail.indra.com
> > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
>
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On Mon, 7 Apr 2003 20:04:43 -0700 "Lisa Sinervo"
<lisa-list@threadneedlest.com> writes:
> you know, I suspect you could get one of those "blow up dress forms"
from an
> "adult shop".  Didn't Dudley Moore have one of those in "Foul Play"?
> 
> just trying to be helpful  :)
> 
> Lisa


        You know, as strange as it sounds... I think you're on to
something here! <grin>  And yes, I'm being completely serious here.  I
hadn't thought about it until I read this reply!  I don't know how well
it would work, other than to hang from something, because you certainly
couldn't stand it, even with a solid stand.  But I think you could use
something like that, if you or someone you know would be willing to make
the stop for you, that is.  You could hang it, hopefully, by using a
cording under the head (hopefully done in such a way as to keep from
looking like it's suppose to be someone who has hung themselves).
        Or, what about several duct tape torsos, that are "hinged" at the
shoulders, with a somewhat open neck, that will fit inside each other
when they are laid out completely open.  The hanger would go inside the
neck and shoulders, and the torso would fold down around it, keeping the
garment shaped.  Would that still take up too much room?  That's at least
another option for someone who does have the room in only certain
dimensions.
        Anyhow, that's what I could come up with beyond the one above. 
<grin>  I still have to admit, I like that idea!  (And no, I'm not fond
of "adult shops".

Astrid
Never argue with a dragon, for thou art crunchy and go well with Brie.
    http://www.geocities.com/astridofthehorde
     ICQ #           67785514
     MSN            btana_qul_mupwi
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] more on Cloth of Gold and Silver
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Kate M Bunting wrote:
> 
> >Oh, thanks!  Now, if you'll tell me how many shillings to the pound,
> >I'll be set!
> 
> Twenty.
> 
> Kate Bunting (feeling old, as I was brought up with the l.s.d. syslem)

Well, I was feeling silly for not knowing something so basic!

Thanks,
Melanie Schuessler
http://www.faucet.net/costume
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Henslowe's Diary was - more on Cloth of Gold and Silver
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Lisa Sinervo wrote:
> 
> The starch entry is on page 244 in the 1961 typeface edition - entry [204].

Aha--I haven't gotten that far yet.  I'll be sure and put it into the
database when I get there.

> A searchable Henslowe's diary would be sooooo nice!!!!

Well, I'm only entering the costume-related parts, but it's already been
nice.  I just put the word "copper" in the proper field, and up popped
the four related entries out of the fifty I've done so far.  I'll have
to see how to make it deliverable to other people's computers.

I just feel as though there's so much information out there, and so much
of it hasn't been collated so that we can compare and contrast mentions
of various types of styles, fabrics, and colors.  Danielle, are you
entering your will and inventory entries into a database?  That would be
handy!  In your copious free time, of course...

;)
Melanie Schuessler
http://www.faucet.net/costume
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Lisa Sinervo wrote:
> 
> You know, I bet there would be some money in publishing
> costume data bases, not just books.  It would be great to buy a CD by
> fashion period, with the correct fabric samples, buttons, portraits
> etc....... wouldn't that be grand!

Well, it's not exactly databases, but there is a guy named James
Harrington who is scanning his vintage fashion mags and putting them on
CDs.  He's willing to do them custom if you want a particular year.  I
have a sample CD with 196 pages (in Adobe Acrobat) of magazines from
1870 to 1940.

His website is http://www.dressmakingresearch.com and he does have some
research images free online as well.

Melanie Schuessler
http://www.faucet.net/costume
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At 11:50 PM 4/7/2003 -0600, you wrote:
>I'll have
>to see how to make it deliverable to other people's computers.

MySQL is a great online database, according to my hubby.

Kimiko



Kimiko Small
Costumer, Fiber Artist, Web Designer, Wife and Mother
kimiko@kimiko1.com; http://www.kimiko1.com

Graphic Intern at Costume Gallery
http://www.costumegallery.com

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on 4/7/03 10:24 PM, h-costume-request@indra.com at
h-costume-request@indra.com wrote:

> Did you flare the top for
> the branches?

Thanks, Kathleen!  Yes, it flared out.  As I remember, I made two rather
large (approx. 10" at the bottom x 24" long) cone shapes from the chicken
wire and attached them to the top of the main trunk form just above the
head, angling out at different degrees, and attached a third branch a bit
lower, coming out of the back, so as not to interfere with vision.  I bent
the branches in different directions, to look more natural.  After the
branches were attached I put the whole thing on the floor and twisted and
tweaked until the form would stand up on its own.  I sort of squished the
wire armature into a tree-crotch shape and used duct tape to smooth the
joints before I started with the papier mache. If I'd had time and it needed
to be "prettier" I would've made smaller branches and twigs coming off the
main branches.  Maybe with real twigs?

Thanks for asking - I forget how much I enjoy figuring these kinds of things
out and it's nice to revisit the project every once in awhile!

Allison

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Brenda Bell wrote:
> 
> This sounds not too unfamiliar. There was a cotton "ruff" (actually a
> pleated-flat collar) with lace trim in the Metropolitan Museum of Art's
> "Extreme Beauty" exhibition last fall (unfortunately, it is not in the
> collection catalogue -- nor is it in the books with their usual listings of
> acquisitions, nor can it be found in their general database...).

That's because, for reasons best known to those responsible, both ruff
and supportasse reside in the European Sculpture and Decorative Arts
collection as part of the Antonio Ratti Textile Center.  The Textile
Center's hours are very limited, and I wasn't able to visit it when I
was last there, but I intend to go back!

Melanie Schuessler
http://www.faucet.net/costume
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] costume databases, was:  Henslowe's Diary
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Kimiko Small wrote:
> 
> At 11:50 PM 4/7/2003 -0600, you wrote:
> >I'll have
> >to see how to make it deliverable to other people's computers.
> 
> MySQL is a great online database, according to my hubby.

After doing an admittedly tiny amount of research into MySQL, I don't
know if I'm enough of a geek to handle it.  It sounds like a good thing
for people who can write their own code, but I'm using FileMaker, and
I'm still figuring THAT out!  I wonder if one could import a set of
records from FileMaker into MySQL?  There may be other options as well
if all I want to do is put it up on my website--I'll talk to my favorite
web guru about it.

Melanie Schuessler
http://www.faucet.net/costume
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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Wool in Modern American Clothing (WAS: Re:
	Surcoatfabric)
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We import a lot of it, too.....
All of the cotton tenting material my (thank god) former employer
purchased came in these huge bales from India, as basically unfinished
goods.  Any finishing processes (mold/mildew resistance treatments,
flame retardant, etc.) were done here in the US.
I remember, a shipment of ours got largely ruined by, I think, Hurricane
Hugo?
--sue, who now works in an extremely clothes-casual environment (jeans
and tee shirts for most of us, although some of the front office people
dress up to the point of being sorta-casual), and who would melt into an
ugly puddle if she had to wear wool to work...

Catherine Olanich Raymond wrote:
> 
> On Monday 07 April 2003 08:21 am, Brenda Bell wrote:
> > Cathy Raymond responded to Heather Meadows:
> > >On Saturday 05 April 2003 01:29 pm, Heather Meadows wrote:
> > > > actually, a lot of people don't wear wool, or only have a sweater or
> > > > two out of it.  Most people I know stick to cottons for everyday wear -
> > > > I have to search long and hard to find good wool clothes casual enough
> > > > for everyday.
> > >
> > >A lot of Americans don't wear wool much.  Cotton, on the other hand, in a
> > >wide variety of forms, is ubiquitous.
> >
> > Which may have something to do with our cotton industry and cotton export
> > industry?
> 
> Well, sure.  Since we are a cotton producing nation, cotton is easy to come
> by...QED.  :-)
> 
> > >It's easy enough to find wool sweaters that are casual, but you're
> > >right--most
> > >other wool clothing is more formal.  Suits, nice pants, or dresses not
> > > meant for everyday.
> >
> > That depends on where you live, and the environment in which you work.
> > While many offices have changed their dress codes to "business casual",
> > many others have not. Most men in white-collar jobs still wear wool or
> > wool-blend suits year-round. I still wear lined wool slacks to work on the
> > coldest days of the year, and wool blazers as fall/spring jackets (I work
> > in a shirts-and-chinos environment).
> 
> This is all true, but I'm not sure I see the point of it.  As far as I'm
> concerned, the type of wool pants that go with "business casual" are still
> more formal than the everyday stuff I was thinking of.
> 
> My office is "business casual" and I only wear wool slacks for formal
> occasions.  Of course, I don't live in the coldest part of the country, but I
> still prefer wearing tights under chinos or corduroy than pants I know I will
> have to dry clean if I spill something on them.
> 
> >When I'm in a cooler environment (the
> > apartment gets quite chilly of a cold winter), you can bet I'm wearing wool
> > or wool-blend sweaters and longjohns.
> 
> I'm sure. I hadn't been thinking about underwear, either.  (Though when I do
> wear long underwear, I prefer cotton waffle knits to wool.  Even smooth wools
> and most wool blends make me itch, after a while, if I'm wearing them
> directly against my skin.
> 
> --
> Cathy Raymond <cathy@thyrsus.com>
> 
> "Intelligence is the ultimate aphrodisiac."  Timothy Leary
> 
> _______________________________________________
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Date: Mon, 07 Apr 2003 23:29:31 -0500
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Danielle Nunn-Weinberg <dannw@attbi.com>
Subject: databases of 16th century info was Re: [h-cost] Henslowe's
  Diary
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Hi,

Yup, a database is how I do it.  That is the only way to keep track of the 
information.  I've looked at well over 1500 wills so far and the end isn't 
anywhere in sight....

However, I hope no one is holding their breath for my database to be online 
anytime soon.  I've sent in my application to the University of Manchester 
(England) to do my PhD there - specifically on clothing & textile 
references in 16th century English wills and inventories.  So, I won't be 
giving away my databases.  However, my first paper on clothing references 
in 16th century English wills & inventories which I gave at K'zoo in May 
2000 will be up on my website shortly.   www.frozen-fyre.com

Cheers,
Danielle

At 11:50 PM 4/7/2003 -0600, you wrote:

<snip>

>I just feel as though there's so much information out there, and so much
>of it hasn't been collated so that we can compare and contrast mentions
>of various types of styles, fabrics, and colors.  Danielle, are you
>entering your will and inventory entries into a database?  That would be
>handy!  In your copious free time, of course...
>
>;)
>Melanie Schuessler
>http://www.faucet.net/costume

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Subject: Re: databases of 16th century info was Re: [h-cost] Henslowe'sDiary
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What are you using for your database? The only db-related stuff I've
ever dealt with is MicrosoftAccess.....
--sue

Danielle Nunn-Weinberg wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> Yup, a database is how I do it.  That is the only way to keep track of the
> information.  I've looked at well over 1500 wills so far and the end isn't
> anywhere in sight....
> 
> However, I hope no one is holding their breath for my database to be online
> anytime soon.  I've sent in my application to the University of Manchester
> (England) to do my PhD there - specifically on clothing & textile
> references in 16th century English wills and inventories.  So, I won't be
> giving away my databases.  However, my first paper on clothing references
> in 16th century English wills & inventories which I gave at K'zoo in May
> 2000 will be up on my website shortly.   www.frozen-fyre.com
> 
> Cheers,
> Danielle
> 
> At 11:50 PM 4/7/2003 -0600, you wrote:
> 
> <snip>
> 
> >I just feel as though there's so much information out there, and so much
> >of it hasn't been collated so that we can compare and contrast mentions
> >of various types of styles, fabrics, and colors.  Danielle, are you
> >entering your will and inventory entries into a database?  That would be
> >handy!  In your copious free time, of course...
> >
> >;)
> >Melanie Schuessler
> >http://www.faucet.net/costume
> 
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
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Date: Mon, 07 Apr 2003 21:40:41 -0700
From: Kimiko Small <kimiko@kimiko1.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] costume databases, was:  Henslowe's Diary
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At 12:19 AM 4/8/2003 -0600, you wrote:
>I wonder if one could import a set of
>records from FileMaker into MySQL?

MySQL takes all the basic formats, which most every database exports to. 
That includes spreadsheet formats as well. Comma delineated is about the 
basic data file format that everything will take.

And I don't deal well with databases. I understand them, I've used them, 
but I leave the programming of them to my hubby and his friends. In turn I 
make my hubby his costumes.

Kimiko


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Date: Mon, 07 Apr 2003 21:43:39 -0700
From: Kimiko Small <kimiko@kimiko1.com>
Subject: Re: databases of 16th century info was Re: [h-cost] Henslowe's  Diary
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At 11:29 PM 4/7/2003 -0500, you wrote:
>So, I won't be giving away my databases.

How about when you are done and received your PhD, you put those databases 
on CDRom and sell them? It would provide a much needed resource, and you 
get some reimbursement for your time?

Just a thought.

Kimiko



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Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2003 00:00:27 -0500
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Danielle Nunn-Weinberg <dannw@attbi.com>
Subject: Re: databases of 16th century info was Re: [h-cost] Henslowe's
   Diary
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At 09:43 PM 4/7/2003 -0700, you wrote:
>At 11:29 PM 4/7/2003 -0500, you wrote:
>>So, I won't be giving away my databases.
>
>How about when you are done and received your PhD, you put those databases 
>on CDRom and sell them? It would provide a much needed resource, and you 
>get some reimbursement for your time?
>
>Just a thought.
>
>Kimiko

That is actually an excellent thought!!!  I just might do that.  I figure 
it won't be for a few years though....I have to get accepted first!

Cheers,
Danielle

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Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2003 00:01:56 -0500
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Danielle Nunn-Weinberg <dannw@attbi.com>
Subject: Re: databases of 16th century info was Re: [h-cost]
  Henslowe'sDiary
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Access is what I'm using.  My husband (computer guru) writes my queries for 
me.  Mind you when I go away to school I will have to learn to write my own.

Cheers,
Danielle

At 10:37 PM 4/7/2003 -0600, you wrote:
>What are you using for your database? The only db-related stuff I've
>ever dealt with is MicrosoftAccess.....
>--sue
>
>Danielle Nunn-Weinberg wrote:
> >
> > Hi,
> >
> > Yup, a database is how I do it.  That is the only way to keep track of the
> > information.  I've looked at well over 1500 wills so far and the end isn't
> > anywhere in sight....

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From: "Penny Ladnier" <penny@costumegallery.com>
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Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 01:48:42 -0400
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Subject: [h-cost] Help needed
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The Costume Gallery, www.costumegallery.com  is in need of an intern who can
do graphics and html coding.  We are vastly expanding our online library and
have a 1911 Beauty School/ Hair textbook that needs coding and graphics
done.  Two interns from Mexico and Denmark have just about finished typing
up this book.  In May, we will have another book like this one, coded too.
Working on this book has a real learning experience for them.

This is an unpaid internship, but in exchange the intern gets to take free
online classes with us at www.costumeclassroom.com as long as they are
working for us.

Skills needed for the internship:
Graphics software: Paint Shop Pro or PhotoShop
HTML: Know how to code in raw HTML code.  We do not accept FrontPage, AOL
HTML software, or Netscape HTML Composer.  We will accept people who use
notepad, Notetab Light (freeware), or Dreamweaver.  Code is built using
templates that we supply.  Must have knowledge of using tables.

If interested, please write me personally at penny@costumegallery.com .
Please include, a phone number if in the U.S., software skills, and URLs of
previous work.

***Note, we do have experience working with interns around the world.  Work
is done in your home and at your own pace.

Penny Ladnier
Owner, The Costume Gallery & Costume Classroom
http://www.costumegallery.com
http://www.costumeclassroom.com
http://www.onlinecostumeball.com


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Date: Mon, 07 Apr 2003 13:08:30 -0400
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Subject: Gabled headdresses? (WAS: Re: [h-cost] Queen Anne Dress)
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Sue Clemenger wrote:

>OCC: I don't remember seeing a supportasse in the V&A, but then, I only
>had a few hours there, and that was pretty much spent frantically
>photographing things in the textile rooms.  I do remember seeing,
>however, two metal frameworks for english gable headresses at the MoL.

<*perking up*>
Did you manage to photograph those frameworks? Do they look anything like 
Jean's frame? <*insert cartoonish begging and annoying sounds and motions*>

I did my first English hood last year based on the instructions on Jean's 
page, and would certainly be interested in the info...


Brenda
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Mike T. <mikes@dandy.net> wrote:

>The Faires that I have seen in the past few years (New Jersey at Somerset, 
>New York at Sterling South,

Would that be the New York Renaissance Festival at Sterling Forest (Tuxedo, 
NY) or the Sterling Renaissance Festival?

>Pennsylvania and Maryland) have somewhat improved

I've heard some really awful things about REC, but the one thing I *can* 
say is that since they've bought out/taken over NYRF, there's less 
out-and-out fantasy and more of an attempt (often bungled, frequently 
deliberately-manipulated, but an attempt) to show something that could 
possibly have, maybe, been historical. The Gypsies and the Robin Hood story 
line still rattle me (as did that "International Trade Conference" 
storyline of a couple of years ago), but then again you have to go with 
what you have, and the Robin Hood group and the Gypsies have been around 
that faire for years...

>...and some, like Md., have associated reenactment groups with historical 
>clothing standards.

Whoa... this sounds interesting. Unfortunately I only get to Maryland for 
Scottish Weekend :(

>I know the Cali. Faires are much better in this respect than others.

I've been told that they've gone considerably downhill since REC bought 
them out. Anyone familiar with care to comment?

>I still note, though, ideas that are mentioned, such as having the 
>customers up close to you, which would prevent some of the more obvious 
>Theatrical costuming shortcuts (hot glue

I think hot glue *could* be made to work... not that any of us would 
*prefer* it to work, mind you...

>Don't take me wrong, I am thrilled to know that the situation is 
>improving, but I was just noting that it had a long way to go, and a lot 
>of people to convince, before the whole package can be considered 
>Historical Costume moreso than Theatrical (only my opinion).

Mike, you're not the only one.

BTW, you've pretty much mentioned all the faires I attend. Are you by 
chance located in the Eastern-or-Metro NY/NJ/Eastern PA corridor?


Brenda
webwarren@earthlink.net


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From: "Baralier" <baralier@optusnet.com.au>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: OT, movies
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 18:46:41 +1000
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From: <AlbertCat@aol.com>
> I thought the WHOLE FILM was gratuitus...:-P  Dumbest "epic" ever made.

If you think Titanic was the dumbest "epic" ever made all I can say is you
need to get out and see more movies!

Try watching The Patriot if you want a "dumb epic". Far worse that Titanic.

Paul
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Titanic
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 18:53:22 +1000
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From: "Kimiko Small" <kimiko@kimiko1.com>
> Personally, I enjoyed the movie. I took it for what it was, entertainment
> on a Christmas Day with my boyfriend (now husband), cried at the tear
> jerkers, enjoyed the storyline, loved all the dresses, and when I went
home
> I did some more research into the real story of the Titanic.

Having been amateur Titanic historian for some 20 odd years now I looked
forward to seeing the movie when it came out and have seen it several times
since.

I've seen nearly all the Titanic movies including A Night to Remember and I
was aware that David Warner (the valet) had appeared on a previous Titanic
movie called SOS Titanic.

While watching diCaprio drown was almost worth repeat viewings it was the
attention to detail that Cameron put into the film that really impressed me.
Not merely content with redressing the Queen Mary or dragging some old
sailor suits out of the wardrobe the detail was found in just about
everything.

As far as accuracy goes with the exception of the fictitious family and
their 3rd class interloper pretty much everything else was spot on. Things
like the men standing on the capsized lifeboat for 4 hours was filmed but
never made it to the final cut.

It's not a great historical documentary but then it was never intended to be
one either.

Paul
--
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http://members.optushome.com.au/velvetspyder
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From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Rachel?= <rachel_holliday@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] hat attributed to QE I
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Apologies for being so very behind with my email so I don't know if anyone has answered this
question yet.

> Date: Sat, 29 Mar 2003 23:53:13 -0600
> From: Danielle Nunn-Weinberg <dannw@attbi.com> 
> Greetings,
> 
> There is a flat-shallow-crowned, broad-brimmed hat, apparently made of lace 
> which is attributed to QEI.  (There is a picture of it in  "An Elizabethan 
> Progress" by Zillah Dovey.)  Does anyone know more about it - it appears to 
> be very 18th century looking to me.  The knitted (?) stockings depicted 
> with it also seem a bit suspect to me.  There is no provenance listed in 
> this source, nor any reference to where they are held.
> 
> Any additional info would be appreciated.

It's a bit hard to know for certain from your description but I would say this sounds like the
hat, stockings (and gloves) purported to be the property of Elizabeth I currently held at Hatfield
House (UK).  If you had a picture I could say for certain.  If they are then they are on display
in the house.

Hope that helps,
Rachel

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"Lisa Sinervo" <lisa-list@threadneedlest.com> wrote:

>You know, I bet there would be some money in publishing
>costume data bases, not just books.  It would be great to buy a CD by
>fashion period, with the correct fabric samples, buttons, portraits
>etc....... wouldn't that be grand!

Now, *physical* samples would be difficult...

However, the rest of it? I work for a living creating records for an online 
database. I may not have the extensive costuming background most of you 
have, but a database, I can understand. Well, maybe not to do a lot of 
extensive programming in a DBMS, but I can understand structure, and I can 
do abstracting, indexing, and bibliographic citation. Additionally, my 
ultimate employer (the owner of the big database company for which I work 
in a small, endangered division) is always interested in acquiring and/or 
developing new databases, so if it's something sufficiently useful, perhaps 
I can pitch it up the chain of command. (Or if we end up being shafted and 
our file migrated elsewhere, it might be something I could/should start in 
on to "make ends meet"...)

The biggest question I'd have would be, how many people would be willing to 
pay how much for this sort of thing? Subscriptions to engineering databases 
run into the thousands of dollars per year; I wouldn't expect a clothing 
and costuming database to run much cheaper than that, if done as a 
profit-making venture.

If this type of expense sounds reasonable to that proportion of you who 
would be interested in this sort of product, where would I (1) begin market 
research, (2) find source materials, and (3) get permissions to include 
those source materials in such a database?


--Still an egg, but with ideas of what a hen might be able to do...

Brenda
webwarren@earthlink.net


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Melanie Schuessler <melanie@faucet.net>

> > This sounds not too unfamiliar. There was a cotton "ruff" (actually a
> > pleated-flat collar) with lace trim in the Metropolitan Museum of Art's
> > "Extreme Beauty" exhibition last fall (unfortunately, it is not in the
> > collection catalogue -- nor is it in the books with their usual 
> listings of
> > acquisitions, nor can it be found in their general database...).
>That's because, for reasons best known to those responsible, both ruff
>and supportasse reside in the European Sculpture and Decorative Arts
>collection as part of the Antonio Ratti Textile Center.

And yet it has a Metropolitan Museum of Art accession number? And was not 
listed in the exhibit as "on loan from..." or "a gift of..." or "from the 
.... collection/museum/foundation/etc."? I should like to think that we are 
talking about two very similar items, not a single item whose ownership and 
location is claimed-or-ignored by two different institutions...


Brenda
webwarren@earthlink.net


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Subject: Re: [h-cost] hat attributed to QE I
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Rachel" <rachel_holliday@yahoo.co.uk>
To: <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2003 6:31 AM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] hat attributed to QE I


> Apologies for being so very behind with my email so I don't know if anyone
has answered this
> question yet.
>
> > Date: Sat, 29 Mar 2003 23:53:13 -0600
> > From: Danielle Nunn-Weinberg <dannw@attbi.com>
> > Greetings,
> >
> > There is a flat-shallow-crowned, broad-brimmed hat, apparently made of
lace
> > which is attributed to QEI.  (There is a picture of it in  "An
Elizabethan
> > Progress" by Zillah Dovey.)  Does anyone know more about it - it appears
to
> > be very 18th century looking to me.  The knitted (?) stockings depicted
> > with it also seem a bit suspect to me.  There is no provenance listed in
> > this source, nor any reference to where they are held.
> >
> > Any additional info would be appreciated.
>
> It's a bit hard to know for certain from your description but I would say
this sounds like the
> hat, stockings (and gloves) purported to be the property of Elizabeth I
currently held at Hatfield
> House (UK).  If you had a picture I could say for certain.  If they are
then they are on display
> in the house.
>
> Hope that helps,
> Rachel
>
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From: Melanie Schuessler <melanie@faucet.net>
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Brenda Bell wrote:
> 
> Melanie Schuessler <melanie@faucet.net>
> 
> > > This sounds not too unfamiliar. There was a cotton "ruff" (actually a
> > > pleated-flat collar) with lace trim in the Metropolitan Museum of Art's
> > > "Extreme Beauty" exhibition last fall (unfortunately, it is not in the
> > > collection catalogue -- nor is it in the books with their usual
> > listings of
> > > acquisitions, nor can it be found in their general database...).
> >That's because, for reasons best known to those responsible, both ruff
> >and supportasse reside in the European Sculpture and Decorative Arts
> >collection as part of the Antonio Ratti Textile Center.
> 
> And yet it has a Metropolitan Museum of Art accession number? And was not
> listed in the exhibit as "on loan from..." or "a gift of..." or "from the
> .... collection/museum/foundation/etc."? I should like to think that we are
> talking about two very similar items, not a single item whose ownership and
> location is claimed-or-ignored by two different institutions...

Sorry, I wasn't clear.  The ruff and supportasse belong to the Antonio
Ratti Textile Center, which is part of the European Sculpture and
Decorative Arts Collection, which is part of the Metropolitan Museum of
Art.  What I meant to point out is that they are in this other
collection rather than in the Costume Institute.

Melanie Schuessler
http://www.faucet.net/costume
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Brenda Bell wrote:
> 
> The biggest question I'd have would be, how many people would be willing to
> pay how much for this sort of thing? Subscriptions to engineering databases
> run into the thousands of dollars per year; I wouldn't expect a clothing
> and costuming database to run much cheaper than that, if done as a
> profit-making venture.

I don't know of very many people/institutions that would be willing to
pay that sort of money.  I think a more cost-effective way of doing it
would be to publish them on CD and sell the CDs, rather than running an
online service.  That way, people could afford it, and it wouldn't have
upkeep costs.  While of course one monolithic database with _everything_
in it would be the most useful way to go, it doesn't sound affordable.

Melanie Schuessler
http://www.faucet.net/costume
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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Tue Apr  8 10:11:57 2003
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] costume data bases  (long)
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I can tell you that most museums are opposed to selling CDs of their
collections because of how easily they can be copied.  I have discussed this
with some curators.  There images sold for use are their biggest money
makers, other than donations.  If they put their images on CDs, they become
fair game for thief on the internet.

Another factor to consider... anytime you are dealing with color on a
computer it is a very difficult thing to match.  Computer screens display
color differently.  The more ram you are using the lower the color fades.  I
have experienced this, just this morning.

I have checked into the options of publishing color swatches for my color
research.  Publishers say this is a very costly venture.  The more color in
a book, the higher the price.  I was told by one publisher if I had books
published in the manner I want, the retail cost would have to be in the
$1,000 per book range.  I don't know many people who would be able to pay
that much.

One thing I can tell you to hire a database architect is big money.  My
husband is one semester away from getting his masters degree in this and we
know the salary range for our section of the U.S.  Let's just say it isn't
cheap.  On top of that, he is getting his second masters in networking in
Dec. 2003.  Thank goodness, this ten year adventure is FINALLY coming to an
end.  He is at the high stress point of the semester and driving us crazy.

Personally I don't see the costuming world coming up with the kind of money
it has to develop this kind of project except if you had some major backers
like the Smithsonian or Met.  With the funding of the arts and museum being
cut back so much, I don't see  museums backing large projects like this.

I was recently talking with some industry professionals in the museum world
and was informed that a lot of collections are on the line right now.  I
won't go into any detail.  It was a private conversation.  When museums
start losing money, they have to start selling off things to stay alive.
Not only that, many universities are cutting costume history classes.  Some
are cutting down to one semester and some are cutting the classes all
together.

When you look at the grand scheme of things... when local, state, and
federal budgets start getting tight, the arts are the first thing that are
cut out of the budget.

Maybe when the economy becomes more stable, approaching an educational
institution or large museum would be appropriate time to jump in and ask.
But I think it is going to take a long time for the arts community to
recover.  They are the first ones cut, and the last ones to receive.

As another alternate, you might consider grants.  Costume is wonderful that
it falls under art and history.  I have been researching grants for the past
couple of years.  Most grantors either want you to be a non-profit
organization or a student working on a thesis at the upper college levels.
Another thing about grants... most want you to show other means of support
other than just their grant.  This has to be written into the grant's budget
proposal.  It is a tough nut to crack but it can be done if the situation is
right and the proposal is excellent.

Penny Ladnier
Owner, The Costume Gallery & Costume Classroom
http://www.costumegallery.com
http://www.costumeclassroom.com
http://www.onlinecostumeball.com


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From: "Lisa Sinervo" <lisa-list@threadneedlest.com>
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: costume data bases 
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It'd be worth looking into Brenda, but as for cost, thousands would be too
high a ticket price for me.  It would depend on what was in the database
though too.  I would probably subscribe to an online data base and pay for
access, more likely that I would pay per search as needed then a pricey
annual subscription, but it all depends.  Or I would be happy to pay for
additional data to add to my existing data base, such as info from wills
etc.

My costume library has been rapidly growing after being pretty much wiped
out in the from overseas move and it is getting to the point where to be
used effectively a database is required.  Although my faire shop and web
page are the priority now, starting to enter info on my Access database is
around the corner.  It's going to be great for personal use, but I've got
copyright material from books that I don't care enough to pay permissions
for, so sharing it on the web is out of the question only for that reason.
I, personally, don't mind sharing all my info without fees because I see
myself primarily as a costumer/supplier and so the more info I give to
people the less time I have to spend talking to them about the basics of
their garments and the more time I have for sewing/designing etc. A web site
with loads of research info is the "window display" for an online
fabric/notions shop.  Plus I have this underlying agenda about having people
feel better about themselves which overrides some of my commercial decisions
and it would be nice if the Ren Faire standards improved and the best way to
influence that is to provide info in a fun way that people can access and
use.

But for someone who earns their living by research, I would not expect that
the data would be distributed for free and I would be willing to pay for the
info they have collected.  It would be nice for me to have my own Access
database and have others sell data in a form that I could add to it like I
would another book to my library.  Or share info this way perhaps.
Copyright is ALWAYS a problem!!!

Keep the wheels churning Brenda, I be a potential customer.

Lisa Sinervo




----- Original Message -----
From: "Brenda Bell" <webwarren@earthlink.net>
To: <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2003 4:35 AM
Subject: [h-cost] Re: costume data bases


> "Lisa Sinervo" <lisa-list@threadneedlest.com> wrote:
>
> >You know, I bet there would be some money in publishing
> >costume data bases, not just books.  It would be great to buy a CD by
> >fashion period, with the correct fabric samples, buttons, portraits
> >etc....... wouldn't that be grand!
>
> Now, *physical* samples would be difficult...
>
> However, the rest of it? I work for a living creating records for an
online
> database. I may not have the extensive costuming background most of you
> have, but a database, I can understand. Well, maybe not to do a lot of
> extensive programming in a DBMS, but I can understand structure, and I can
> do abstracting, indexing, and bibliographic citation. Additionally, my
> ultimate employer (the owner of the big database company for which I work
> in a small, endangered division) is always interested in acquiring and/or
> developing new databases, so if it's something sufficiently useful,
perhaps
> I can pitch it up the chain of command. (Or if we end up being shafted and
> our file migrated elsewhere, it might be something I could/should start in
> on to "make ends meet"...)
>
> The biggest question I'd have would be, how many people would be willing
to
> pay how much for this sort of thing? Subscriptions to engineering
databases
> run into the thousands of dollars per year; I wouldn't expect a clothing
> and costuming database to run much cheaper than that, if done as a
> profit-making venture.
>
> If this type of expense sounds reasonable to that proportion of you who
> would be interested in this sort of product, where would I (1) begin
market
> research, (2) find source materials, and (3) get permissions to include
> those source materials in such a database?
>
>
> --Still an egg, but with ideas of what a hen might be able to do...
>
> Brenda
> webwarren@earthlink.net
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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From: "Lisa Sinervo" <lisa-list@threadneedlest.com>
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] costume data bases  (long)
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 06:47:53 -0700
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Penny wrote:

> I can tell you that most museums are opposed to selling CDs of their
> collections because of how easily they can be copied.  I have discussed
this
> with some curators.  There images sold for use are their biggest money
> makers, other than donations.  If they put their images on CDs, they
become
> fair game for thief on the internet.
>
I don't see this happening either.  But what about book publishers including
some data on a CD with the books they produce?  Dover does that with their
clip art books.  That would be nice.  Wouldn't have to be the whole book,
just some searchable data.  Or even encouraging students sell their data
after they have completed their degrees?  I think encouraging small time
players to sell their bits of info would be a smart more.  CD's aren't
expensive to produce and the research would have been undertaken for
alternate reasons anyway.  It might not be a money maker on a large scale
for a conglomerate, but some individuals could pick up a few dollars selling
their data, perhaps not databases, and the costumer could incorporate it
into their databases as desired.

Lisa


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Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 14:40:36 +0100 (BST)
From: =?iso-8859-1?q?N=20Kipar?= <nicolas_fouquet@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] costume data bases  
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
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Just as an aside, from my own experience: costume is not taken seriously,
certainly not in History. Few, very few HE's allow MPhil's or PhD's in nothing
but costume studies, instead it is usually needed to go into Economic History,
Social History, Women's Studies (the latter is my focus-besides-costume) etc.

Regarding databases, we here can't even afford the Early Modern English Books
Online database, instead we have to sneak access, it is several thousands as
well, and we certainly are not a poor place of HE.

The problem with historical costume studies is the many people who went before
and 'mucked it up' for the serious researcher: James Laver, Iris Brook, Herbert
Norris, to name but a few who did not leave sound published material.

People like Norah Waugh and Janet Arnold or even Susan North and certainly
Valerie Cummings are in a better category, but I have spoken to Historians who
say 'yes, but they merely study the costumes, and they don't put them into the
proper historic context most of the time'.

It's all quite messed up and rather sad, even the word 'costume' has a very
negative and 'awww cutsie' and certainly not-to-be-talen-seriously connotation.

All of the above is my own personal experience here in UK in HE, maybe it is
different in the US, I don't know.

So, in summary, while it is all a wonderful idea, I will throw in my
pessimistic voice here that says "it is never going to happen".
Remember the h-costume website idea? I said back then "it s never going to
happen" - being realistic - and it never did happen.

Someone prove me wrong and get a database going, I'd be indebted forever, it
would certainly cut down on Archives time.

Nicole

=====
"Brains, not Bombs"
http://www.stopthewar.org.uk/

Nicole Kipar M.A.
URL: http://www.kipar.org/
Email: nicole@kipar.org

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Oh, now, I *liked* the Patriot, but then, I'll watch just about any
movie to watch Mel Gibson. <g>
--sue

Baralier wrote:
> 
> From: <AlbertCat@aol.com>
> > I thought the WHOLE FILM was gratuitus...:-P  Dumbest "epic" ever made.
> 
> If you think Titanic was the dumbest "epic" ever made all I can say is you
> need to get out and see more movies!
> 
> Try watching The Patriot if you want a "dumb epic". Far worse that Titanic.
> 
> Paul
> --
> It's easier to ask forgiveness than to get permission. - W. Slovotsky
> http://members.optushome.com.au/velvetspyder
> Costumier & Reprobate
> 
> _______________________________________________
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The MoL was death on photographs, and I was actually going to try to
sneak back and take a non-flash quickie with my digital, but *right
then*, some idiot took a picture in the same area with a flash, and
there were too many security-types.  *sigh*
I don't know what Jean's frame looks like....do you have a link?
A friend of mine and I made sketches, though.  They looked to be made of
a wire just a *tidge* heavier than the wire used for clothes-hangers,
and the wire was continuous, but bent into the appropriate shape.  And
it was definitely a 3-dimensional framework...the wire would start on
the bottom on one side, go up over the top and down to the other side in
a gable-shape, make a 90-degree bend, and repeat the process a couple of
times.  Very, very easy and straight-forward, actually.  I'm imagining
that it formed a framework for a stretched linen or fabric base for the
hat, in much the same way that one makes a kite or a lamp-shade.
So...is that clearer than mud? <g>
--sue, off to get ready for work...blech.....

Brenda Bell wrote:
> 
> Sue Clemenger wrote:
> 
> >OCC: I don't remember seeing a supportasse in the V&A, but then, I only
> >had a few hours there, and that was pretty much spent frantically
> >photographing things in the textile rooms.  I do remember seeing,
> >however, two metal frameworks for english gable headresses at the MoL.
> 
> <*perking up*>
> Did you manage to photograph those frameworks? Do they look anything like
> Jean's frame? <*insert cartoonish begging and annoying sounds and motions*>
> 
> I did my first English hood last year based on the instructions on Jean's
> page, and would certainly be interested in the info...
> 
> Brenda
> webwarren@earthlink.net
> 
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> It's all quite messed up and rather sad, even the word 'costume' has a
very
> negative and 'awww cutsie' and certainly not-to-be-talen-seriously
connotation.
>

Maybe there needs to be a movement to change the name by which we refer to
this field?

Instead of costume, or historical costume we could use...

Period Apparel
Historic Garments
Time and Class Dependant Textiles
Culture Related Textile Constructions

Hey! It's the age of Political Correctness and double speak. Surely someone
can come up with a good alternative.  :-)

Denise
landofoz@netins.net

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Hi,

They look great!
Unfortionally the Min. order of each item are not less than 1,000pcs.
Ieek!
I found inflatebel dolls that are quite cheep but I find them ugly.

http//www.darksidedisplays.com/inflatables.htm


And I am not sure I like to see an "adult" inflatable doll with my 
weddingdress on :-[ .
And I really don't want to think of how to attach a stand.... :-[ :-[

19 April I wil go to a bridal shop :-) . I am going to make a bridal 
gown for someone and we are going to see wat look wel on her.
I will ask them if they have inflatable Dress forms.

Thanks for the idea

Greetings,
	Deredere






Audrey Bergeron-Morin wrote:

>Try this:
>http://www.ourbooklet.com/mannequins.htm
>:-)
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Lisa Sinervo" <lisa-list@threadneedlest.com>
>To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
>Sent: Monday, April 07, 2003 11:04 PM
>Subject: Re: [h-cost] Dress form
>
>
>  
>
>>you know, I suspect you could get one of those "blow up dress forms" from
>>    
>>
>an
>  
>
>>"adult shop".  Didn't Dudley Moore have one of those in "Foul Play"?
>>
>>just trying to be helpful  :)
>>
>>Lisa
>>
>>
>>----- Original Message -----
>>From: "Margo Anderson" <margo@margospatterns.com>
>>To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>; "H-Costume"
>><h-costume@indra.com>
>>Sent: Monday, April 07, 2003 8:14 AM
>>Subject: Re: [h-cost] Dress form
>>
>>
>>    
>>
>>>>Wouldn't it be nice to have a torso that you can blow up like a
>>>>        
>>>>
>balloon?
>  
>
>>>>Just put it in your costume and then blow it up to the right size....
>>>>And maby a hook on it so you can hang it.
>>>>I know you can buy them with only the schoulders....
>>>>        
>>>>
>>>There is such a thing, at least there used to be 15 years ago when I was
>>>working in the bridal business.  Maybe a bridal store could order one
>>>      
>>>
>for
>  
>
>>you?
>>    
>>
>>>Margo
>>>
>>>"One Tough Costumer"
>>>http://www.margospatterns.com
>>>_______________________________________________
>>>h-costume mailing list
>>>h-costume@mail.indra.com
>>>http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
>>>      
>>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>h-costume mailing list
>>h-costume@mail.indra.com
>>http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
>>
>>    
>>
>_______________________________________________
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>
>  
>

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In a message dated 4/8/2003 4:48:37 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
baralier@optusnet.com.au writes:


> Try watching The Patriot if you want a "dumb epic". Far worse that Titanic.
> 

Indeed! But it has better costumes, IMHO....even though I doubt ladies fell 
asleep reading late at night in huge panniers [about the only thing I 
remember]

I don't really like the costumes in Titanic. That opening hat was great but 
the suit under it was awful. The light stripe on dark ground alternating with 
dark stripe on light ground is like some high school project. That yellow 
thing she gets her spitting lesson in looks like it has puffer paint on the 
shoulders. I don't even think the "jump" dress is so great. All of Rose's 
clothes had the wrong silhouette and there was a lack of understanding of the 
"feel" of the period. The Mother's stuff was good, but I think she's wearing 
real things.

Now "Wings of the Dove" captures what an avant guard young lady of wealth 
would be wearing in that period. Rose, even if the shape had been correct, 
was utterly conventional. She didn't own even ONE Fortuni dress!
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In a message dated 4/8/2003 4:56:34 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
baralier@optusnet.com.au writes:


> It's not a great historical documentary but then it was never intended to be
> one either.
> 

Then why reproduce the china....just to break it all. The real problem with 
the film is James Cameron's ego.
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From: <AlbertCat@aol.com>
> baralier@optusnet.com.au writes:
> > Try watching The Patriot if you want a "dumb epic". Far worse that
Titanic.
>
> Indeed! But it has better costumes, IMHO....

I find it rather ironic that you claim Titanic didn't have the "feel" of the
period and yet say a film like the Patriot had better costumes.

Better *looking* costumes perhaps? Because they're about as accurate as
Gibson's previous epic of Bravheart.

Paul
--
It's easier to ask forgiveness than to get permission. - W. Slovotsky
http://members.optushome.com.au/velvetspyder
Costumier & Reprobate

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Subject: [h-cost] Inflatable dolls, foam duct tape
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I have 2 of those adult dolls.... I purchased them when we needed something to put inside 
mermaid costumes when we painted the fabric.

They are way to small for most applications and the shoulders have no definition to them, 
so they most likely would not be suitable to display anything other than perhaps a childs 
outfit.  Which would be just wrong somehow...

And the duct tape mannequins do not hold their shape well enough to move them around too 
much.  After my initial fiasco years ago with trying to fill it with perlite (it kept 
absorbing moisture from my basement), I did try filling it with foam.  The problem with 
that is you can't really control the amount of expansion in the foam which causes it to 
have odd unexpected lumps.  I did it in a series of applications, filling in layers from 
the bottom to the top.

If I do it again, I think the way to fill it is in layers, but lay it on its side and 
spray a layer all around the inside walls, let it set up and get firm.  Then you would 
have an inner shell to help it keep its shape.
-- 
Linda Thompson

Attitude Is Everything
http://corsetsandcostumes.com


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> Sue Clemenger wrote:
> 
> >OCC: I don't remember seeing a supportasse in the V&A, but then, I
> >only had a few hours there, and that was pretty much spent
> >frantically photographing things in the textile rooms.  I do remember
> >seeing, however, two metal frameworks for english gable headresses at
> >the MoL.
> 
> <*perking up*>
> Did you manage to photograph those frameworks? Do they look anything
> like Jean's frame? <*insert cartoonish begging and annoying sounds and
> motions*>
> 
> I did my first English hood last year based on the instructions on
> Jean's page, and would certainly be interested in the info...

Unless she lost it, she has at least one photograph of them because 
she once sent it to me. I have photos of both of them from an 
appointment I had at the MOL, plus some of their other headdress 
wires. Jean, do you still have copies of our correspondance? Mine was 
all lost in an email disaster (my husband reformatted my drive 
without checking to see if my mail was saved. Big problem!)

The supportasse was downstairs in the costume room where they have 
full costumes set up. I've been told that it is no longer on display. 
(Pity, as it and the 1540 boy's embroidered shirt were both there in 
the same cabinet and apparently anything that was there is not now. 
Fortunately, I got lots of pictures but that doesn't help you guys 
much since I don't have easy web page access.) The textile museum 
(where I spent a lot of time as well) is upstairs, well away from the 
costume area. (Most of the costume area is modern stuff. But there 
was one nice 18th C gown while I was there.)

Kat
<kat@grendal.rain.com>


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> Just as an aside, from my own experience: costume is not taken
> seriously, certainly not in History. Few, very few HE's allow MPhil's
> or PhD's in nothing but costume studies, instead it is usually needed
> to go into Economic History, Social History, Women's Studies (the
> latter is my focus-besides-costume) etc.

You mean they don't even get respect if it's a textile degree. Shoot, 
even in the "dark ages of women's academics" they had that. 

> The problem with historical costume studies is the many people who
> went before and 'mucked it up' for the serious researcher: James
> Laver, Iris Brook, Herbert Norris, to name but a few who did not leave
> sound published material.

They were more aimed at the theatrical costumer.

> People like Norah Waugh and Janet Arnold or even Susan North and
> certainly Valerie Cummings are in a better category, but I have spoken
> to Historians who say 'yes, but they merely study the costumes, and
> they don't put them into the proper historic context most of the
> time'.

Argh! I agree that you need to put it in historic context, but Janet 
Arnold and the others did write about how it was set in real history 
(as opposed to theatrical costumers who just want the pretty.)

> It's all quite messed up and rather sad, even the word 'costume' has a
> very negative and 'awww cutsie' and certainly
> not-to-be-talen-seriously connotation.

It's inclusion in "Women's Studies" may be a clue to the reason. It's 
easier to shunt off that way so that people don't have to take it 
seriously. "It's a woman's thing". So where does that leave all the 
male tailors? Male embroiderers? Etc. What about the modern males who 
do costuming (Teddy comes to mind first but I know many men who do 
costuming.)

In the US, if it isn't part of a theatrical degree you see it far 
more often in either Art History or as a Textile degree. And at least 
those make more sense to me than the history degrees or *shudder* 
women's studies.

Kat
<kat@grendal.rain.com>


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> The MoL was death on photographs, and I was actually going to try to
> sneak back and take a non-flash quickie with my digital, but *right
> then*, some idiot took a picture in the same area with a flash, and
> there were too many security-types. 

How weird. Things have sure changed since 1999. It was a security 
type who came up to me and *told* me to use a flash, since it would 
be better with the low light! (Tripods were not allowed, but flash 
was definitely encouraged.)

Kat
<kat@grendal.rain.com>


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Isn't there a database system for legal decisions?  I seem to remember 
clients being billed for the time spent searching for applicable cases.  
Perhaps all the costume info could be entered by whomever has it, and then 
when someone searches for something they pay per hit?  So if I wanted to see 
every woman's Italian garment, in any medium or text, between 1250 and 1495, 
and I got 3,000 hits, I could decide if I wanted to pay for all of them, or 
limit the search further and pay for the ones I actually look at, and pay a 
central company that pays out to the various museums, scholars etc. whose 
work/info I use.  Would this solve the copyright problem?

And for a name, we could call it "Clothing as a reflection or indicator of 
physical and temporal location, economic status, religious belief, and 
personal choice" or CRIPTLERP for short.   Just a thought.


Nancy Kiel
nancy_kiel@hotmail.com
Never tease a weasel!
This is very good advice.
For the weasel will not like it
And teasing isn't nice.





>From: Brenda Bell <webwarren@earthlink.net>
>Reply-To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
>To: h-costume@indra.com
>Subject: [h-cost] Re: costume data bases Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2003 07:35:37 
>-0400
>
>"Lisa Sinervo" <lisa-list@threadneedlest.com> wrote:
>
>>You know, I bet there would be some money in publishing
>>costume data bases, not just books.  It would be great to buy a CD by
>>fashion period, with the correct fabric samples, buttons, portraits
>>etc....... wouldn't that be grand!
>
>Now, *physical* samples would be difficult...
>
>However, the rest of it? I work for a living creating records for an online 
>database. I may not have the extensive costuming background most of you 
>have, but a database, I can understand. Well, maybe not to do a lot of 
>extensive programming in a DBMS, but I can understand structure, and I can 
>do abstracting, indexing, and bibliographic citation. Additionally, my 
>ultimate employer (the owner of the big database company for which I work 
>in a small, endangered division) is always interested in acquiring and/or 
>developing new databases, so if it's something sufficiently useful, perhaps 
>I can pitch it up the chain of command. (Or if we end up being shafted and 
>our file migrated elsewhere, it might be something I could/should start in 
>on to "make ends meet"...)
>
>The biggest question I'd have would be, how many people would be willing to 
>pay how much for this sort of thing? Subscriptions to engineering databases 
>run into the thousands of dollars per year; I wouldn't expect a clothing 
>and costuming database to run much cheaper than that, if done as a 
>profit-making venture.
>
>If this type of expense sounds reasonable to that proportion of you who 
>would be interested in this sort of product, where would I (1) begin market 
>research, (2) find source materials, and (3) get permissions to include 
>those source materials in such a database?
>
>
>--Still an egg, but with ideas of what a hen might be able to do...
>
>Brenda
>webwarren@earthlink.net
>
>
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From: =?iso-8859-1?q?N=20Kipar?= <nicolas_fouquet@yahoo.com>
Subject: costume in academia, Re: [h-cost] costume data bases  
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 --- kat@grendal.rain.com wrote: > 

> You mean they don't even get respect if it's a textile degree. Shoot, 
> even in the "dark ages of women's academics" they had that. 

The ones I talked to only 'knew' the Courtauld Institute.

> They were more aimed at the theatrical costumer.

and that is the problem, you can find those books in our libraries, but good
books? Rarely. Anything by Cummings or North? Nope.

> Argh! I agree that you need to put it in historic context, but Janet 
> Arnold and the others did write about how it was set in real history 
> (as opposed to theatrical costumers who just want the pretty.)

Well, but was it in a 'social context' 'economic context' etc etc etc. I only
repeat here what I heard others comment and stir it up a bit.

> It's inclusion in "Women's Studies" may be a clue to the reason. It's 

Actualy, no, no, it's the other way round. It becomes acceptable whenit is
included in Early Modern Women's Studies as I do. If it were not included in
'proper' historic studies (harharhar, what is proper and what isn't?) then it
would not be 'accepted'.

> easier to shunt off that way so that people don't have to take it 
> seriously. "It's a woman's thing". So where does that leave all the 
> male tailors? Male embroiderers? Etc. What about the modern males who 
> do costuming (Teddy comes to mind first but I know many men who do 
> costuming.)

No Kat, you misunderstood, this is actually NOT the problem.

> In the US, if it isn't part of a theatrical degree you see it far 
> more often in either Art History or as a Textile degree. And at least 
> those make more sense to me than the history degrees or *shudder* 
> women's studies.

Why Shudder????! Anything wrong with women's studies? My PhD research is on
Women's Fashion, Gender and Social Status in Later Stuart England 1660-1714 and
it is within the History department, and specialises in early modern English
women studies (my supervisor is big in this) and was accepted without a hitch
(was actually only one of three of a couple dozens that was accepted without
alterations :-)
You could also put it into Social Studies, that's where a lot of Fashion
studies is in.

Anyway, I am quite happy battling against any stupid comments by any academic
and can be a LOT more arrogant if I need be than they are *laughs*

All in all, I just wanted to give an overview of the possible problems, but it
may be different somewhere else, it may be different in manchester or London or
Edinburgh from Kent!

Nicole

=====
"Brains, not Bombs"
http://www.stopthewar.org.uk/

Nicole Kipar M.A.
URL: http://www.kipar.org/
Email: nicole@kipar.org

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In a message dated 4/8/2003 10:51:05 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
baralier@optusnet.com.au writes:


> Better *looking* costumes perhaps? 

That's exactly what I mean. I'm not an accuracy nut. I like an "historically 
informed" film, but accuracy doesn't always work. It depends on the story.

That and I have a thing for the 18th century.
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At 08:25 AM 4/8/2003 -0700, you wrote:

> > The MoL was death on photographs, and I was actually going to try to
> > sneak back and take a non-flash quickie with my digital, but *right
> > then*, some idiot took a picture in the same area with a flash, and
> > there were too many security-types.
>
>How weird. Things have sure changed since 1999. It was a security
>type who came up to me and *told* me to use a flash, since it would
>be better with the low light! (Tripods were not allowed, but flash
>was definitely encouraged.)
>
>Kat
><kat@grendal.rain.com>

The change has only been in the past year - Jan 2002 no problem, Jan 2003 
no photos.  Apparently (I had this from the textile curator), the MoL 
discovered a website or multiple websites (can't remember which) with very 
poor quality photographs of some of their collection.  Apparently these 
websites were negatively affecting the museum image so the slapped a ban on 
all photography (unless you get specific permission and sign a 
waiver).  So, if you want to take photos there, contact the museum ahead of 
time and you can probably get permission to take some photos of a specific 
area or item.

Cheers,
Danielle



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From: kat@grendal.rain.com
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2003 10:43:08 -0700
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> > Argh! I agree that you need to put it in historic context, but Janet
> > Arnold and the others did write about how it was set in real history
> > (as opposed to theatrical costumers who just want the pretty.)
> 
> Well, but was it in a 'social context' 'economic context' etc etc etc.
> I only repeat here what I heard others comment and stir it up a bit.

I think that it's difficult to understand the evolution of costume if 
one doesn't understand the culture from which it developed. For 
example, why is it that Florentine women and Venetian women of the 
early 16th Century were different and why is it inappropriate to take 
"a little from this culture's clothing and a little from that" to get 
a new outfit. But when you start understanding the emnity between the 
two cultures and why they'd strive not to even seem to imitate each 
other, you start understanding better why a style developed the way 
it did. Clothing are not just in someone's imagination (except for 
some of the theatrical stuff). They are developed because of cultural 
shaping of our minds. (For the same reason that we go "yuck" at some 
clothing styles and "wow, that's really cool" at others, when the 
reverse can be said at a different time or place. For example, 
whoever would think that the clothes of the '60s would return? Or 
those awful Dynasty style shoulderpads?)

> > In the US, if it isn't part of a theatrical degree you see it far
> > more often in either Art History or as a Textile degree. And at
> > least those make more sense to me than the history degrees or
> > *shudder* women's studies.
> 
> Why Shudder????! Anything wrong with women's studies? My PhD research
> is on Women's Fashion, Gender and Social Status in Later Stuart
> England 1660-1714 and it is within the History department, and
> specialises in early modern English women studies (my supervisor is
> big in this) and was accepted without a hitch (was actually only one
> of three of a couple dozens that was accepted without alterations :-)
> You could also put it into Social Studies, that's where a lot of
> Fashion studies is in.

I guess I'm just against history being separated into "women's 
history" and "real history". I think that women's history isn't a 
separate issue. I think that your study shouldn't be shunted off into 
a "Women's Studies" thing but be right in there with the other 
history. Putting it with "social history" makes much more sense to me 
than having it gender specific. (It's a "separate but equal" thing. 
The more we try to separate things, the easier it is to shunt it 
aside as not being as important.)

Kat
<kat@grendal.rain.com>


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From: Robin Netherton <robin@shell.nightowl.net>
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] costume data bases  
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On Tue, 8 Apr 2003, Land of Oz wrote:

> > It's all quite messed up and rather sad, even the word 'costume' has a
> > very negative and 'awww cutsie' and certainly
> > not-to-be-talen-seriously connotation.
> 
> Maybe there needs to be a movement to change the name by which we
> refer to this field?
> 
> Instead of costume, or historical costume we could use...
> 
> Period Apparel
> Historic Garments
> Time and Class Dependant Textiles
> Culture Related Textile Constructions

At the medieval studies conferences, my crowd uses "Dress and Textiles" on
our session name. That seems to resonate with most of our target groups --
archaeology, art history, economics, literature, etc.

We organize our sessions under an umbrella group called "Discussion,
Interpretation, and Study of Textile Arts, Fabrics, and Fashion" -- that
is, DISTAFF. (I was pretty pleased with myself for coming up with that
one. The one disadvantage is that people sometimes assume we're
specifically in "women's studies," but those are the people who forget
that the actual "distaff" is a textile tool. We do occasionally have to
assure people that yes, men are allowed. Men wore half the clothes and
helped make a lot of them, and were responsible for a large part of the
textile trade, after all.)

--Robin

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Subject: [h-cost] Yahoo Group for historic fashion enthusiasts in/near MA
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Hello!

I have started a new Yahoo Group for people that live in and near Massachusetts who wish to chat with or even meet other people interested in historic fashion & the wearing or recreating of it.  I am hoping it will be a good place to share tips on events and local shops and such, as well as to maybe find other folks interested in starting sewing circles or planning get-togethers (trips to museums, whatever). . .  If anybody lives in the area and would like to join, I would love to have you!  Our membership is 11 and growing quickly : )

Here is the link:  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HistoricFashionMA/

Thanks for your time!
-Jenni

"Historically Dressed"
http://costumes.topcities.com

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Subject: [h-cost] Re: Renfaire costuming accuracy - MD Ren. Festival
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Ok... and Brenda, this time around you'll have to make a point of 
stopping by and saying hello (well, I'll be working Sunday only if I get 
my wish, but..).

Since the current costume mistress started at MDRF, the costuming *has* 
improved greatly... the folks who have been in charge for that long have 
a great deal to do with it as well, of course (cringing as I remember a 
classmate who played a wizard... in Gandalf-ish robes and staff... a bit 
over 10 years ago).  General rule of thumb for MDRF overall is that it 
should be historical if possible... with some artistic license taken 
from time to time... with regards to that which involves Cast  at least 
(as opposed to the various other acts).  Cindy will admit that she makes 
costumes, not clothing, but as she's been a re-enactor for years in 
various periods, she also understands the merits of well made clothing, 
and clothing that *looks* right, even if more modern shortcuts or 
materials are used for various reasons (grommets for example).  The 
nobles outfits are now period appearing (though they don't *all* fit 
properly... they do go from person to person from year to year), the 
lower class men aren't bad... the lower class women... well, they're not 
too bad in general, but those tend to have the most artistic leniency, 
whether toward the "wench" look or comedy (ok, so most of the comedian 
garb is a bit fantastic... but then again some would have been in period 
as well).

Ok.. that's as far as I can go with that... I'm not a costumer there, 
just felt like one last year... because I've been in the Guild of St. 
George for the last 3 seasons... the English re-enactment guild, as 
opposed to the Landsknecht group that comes in every year (and though 
there's a fair amount of overlap right now, I'm not one of them... no 
time).  Last year it was decided that most of us would be put into 
livery to show off for the Queen's Coronation (um... there's that 
artistic license thing again... Anne Boleyn being coronated in Revel 
Grove :-)    Most of the returning folk decided to make and own our own 
garb.  Margo Anderson's Elizabethian pattern was used for most of the 
women's... with alterations both for period and class, and for fit... 
well, actually, I *think* only the bodice and chemise patterns were 
used... with a *lot* of fit changes for various bodices.  For the men it 
was a combination of a pattern Paula's used for some time for the 
doublets bodies, with a skirt that was guessed at.   Don't know whether 
or not they'll be used again, all or in part, yet.  

Caps were from various sources (mine was *based* on the muffin cap/coif 
pattern on Drea Leed's site... though I had to change both the actual 
curve of the "brim" and made the back a bit oval to make it fit the head 
more smoothly).

Those costumes that are the Festival's give a reasonable appearance... 
though I know of at least one that isn't quite right, it's not going to 
be completely misleading to the general public.  Also the standard use 
of hoops for the gentlewomen for faire is used... for the same 
temperature (Maryland is quite hot and humid much of the season) and 
safety (um... ever try to rush from one end of a large village to the 
other, over dirt roads with both ditches and tree roots with multiple 
underskirts?) reasons as most faires.  Again, grommets are generally 
used... my handsewn eyelets were the envy of several  (still can't 
believe I did that... got it down to about 17 minutes an eyelet before I 
was done, mostly playing with the awl through the layers of cloth)... to 
save time and wear.  Steel boning in the corsets as well (for the 
gentlewomen... the few of the lower classes who wore an underbodice had 
corded underbodices, rather than the stiff corsets... worked very well 
(I'm tempted to make one, my overdress has trouble by halfway through 
the day with support).

*g* The one annoyance (and only because the Peterkas didn't find Sir 
Thomas's badge until after they had had so many made and used them for a 
year or three) is that the household badges we wear are really patches 
with Sir Thomas Kytson's arms on them... and they're pretty big.  They 
do give the general idea however, and we tend to describe his arms with 
his shield, rather than drawing attention to the badges... unless 
necessary, as in if we get "in trouble" for something around the village 
and would rather throw ourselves upon Sir Thomas's mercy than have to 
deal with the Sheriff :-)   (Not that Sir Thomas won't give us what-for 
if we *do* do something :-)

*g* Cindy (the festival's costumer) is pretty picky about what is worn 
and she and Carolyn (artistic director) can be picky about what is 
carried... but both will let things get by that Paula and Larry won't 
(St. George's guildmasters).  And yes, there are things we end up 
faking... but everyone in the guild (especially those there more than a 
year) does do what they can to bring their characters to life in a 
proper manner... rather than "just acting" a part.  (and, yes, we're 
also in awe of some of those in various roles in the rest of the cast as 
well...)

Oh... and the St. George Livery (mine at least) will be at Costume 
Con... both discussion groups on clothing and re-enactment... though I 
don't know if I'll wear it or not.... probably not for desire of comfort 
over the weekend, and having gained a bit of winter weight since it was 
last worn....

-Elisabeth
(at MDRF Mistress Mabel Ascomb now)

>From: Brenda Bell <webwarren@earthlink.net>
>  
>
>>...and some, like Md., have associated reenactment groups with historical 
>>clothing standards.
>>    
>>
>
>Whoa... this sounds interesting. Unfortunately I only get to Maryland for 
>Scottish Weekend :(
>  
>



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Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 13:09:46 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Angharad ver' Reynulf" <dragonwolfcat@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] New book *gloat*
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
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His gifting me with the book makes me feel better
about the phone call while at Williamsburg to tell me
he was thinking of me because of all the glorious
costumes walking around.

Yep, nifty boss....lets me try to arrange time when
Teren is sick so that I can make up the hours, or so
that I may go to an event and wear costumes.

I can even, on days that I'm not meeting clients, wear
the simpler pieces, and am regularly working on
costumes while at work.

Angharad

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From: Kimiko Small <kimiko@kimiko1.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: Renfaire costuming accuracy - MD Ren. Festival
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At 03:53 PM 4/8/2003 -0400, you wrote:
>but both will let things get by that Paula and Larry won't (St. George's 
>guildmasters).


As in Larry and Paula Peterka?

My what a small world. I used to do small faires and period dance classes 
with Larry before he married Paula here in Fresno, California. He was a 
great juggler then, and had us rolling with much laughter. She looked great 
in her Germans. I thought they did Landsknecht stuff?

Sorry, getting maudlin over old faire hands. It will be nice for me to 
return to faire again, although so many of the people in faire now are 
really young. {sigh} I hate getting older when faire is for the young.

Kimiko



Kimiko Small
Costumer, Fiber Artist, Web Designer, Wife and Mother
kimiko@kimiko1.com; http://www.kimiko1.com

Graphic Intern at Costume Gallery
http://www.costumegallery.com

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> The change has only been in the past year - Jan 2002 no problem, Jan
> 2003 no photos.  Apparently (I had this from the textile curator), the
> MoL discovered a website or multiple websites (can't remember which)
> with very poor quality photographs of some of their collection. 
> Apparently these websites were negatively affecting the museum image
> so the slapped a ban on all photography (unless you get specific
> permission and sign a waiver).  So, if you want to take photos there,
> contact the museum ahead of time and you can probably get permission
> to take some photos of a specific area or item.

Ouch. 

Of course, if I ever get back to London I have every intention of 
writing for an appointment. I about died when I found out that the 
excitement in the meeting room adjacent to where I was for my 
appointment was not because of the Roman London sarcophagus that they 
had just opened but because of some of the Tudor finds in the 
fishpond they had just started excavating. Of course, I found this 
out *after* I got home! (I was there specifically studying Tudor 
headdresses.)

And writing actually saved me when I was at the V&A too. I had it in 
writing that I was allowed to take flash photographs of the textile 
collection when one of the security guards got a bit officious. I was 
*very* glad I had the letter with me! 

You could take photographs, flash or otherwise, in the collections 
with permission but not during your appointment. Pencils and paper 
only then. It took special paid photography permits to have pictures 
then and they preferred that they took them so that they were better 
quality pictures. But you got to use them for published books or 
articles if you went that far.

Kat
<kat@grendal.rain.com>


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Subject: [h-cost] Return to white streaks
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Status: RO

Well I am returning to this subject because I just received my daughter's
school photo and you can clearly see one of her streaks.  You can see her
photo at
www.costumegallery.com/Katie2003.jpg . It is hard to see but her hair is in
dozens of ringlets.  The two lighter colored ringlets in the front bleach
out white blonde in the summer.  These streaks are what people think are
hair extensions.  It is hard to see the streak on other side because it is
pulled to the back in ringlets.

BTW, her hair is naturally curly and thick.  All we do to make the ringlets
is wrap her wet hair around a pencil and then slide it out.  Her hair stayed
in these ringlets for a week without gel or hairspray.  It also took me two
hours to make all the ringlets.  Her hair is about shoulder blade length
when not in ringlets.

Penny Ladnier
Owner, The Costume Gallery & Costume Classroom
http://www.costumegallery.com
http://www.costumeclassroom.com
http://www.onlinecostumeball.com


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Status: RO

Actually I have people ask me what I do all the time.  If I saw historic
costume, they think the study of carnival costumes.  Then they play 20
questions trying to figure out what I really do.  The easiest title for me
to use is fashion historian.  People seem to understand immediately.

The general public does not understand the real definition of costume.  But
they do understand what fashion is.  Realistically, the costuming industry
is part of the fashion industry.  Just like textiles is part of the fashion
industry.

Penny Ladnier
Owner, The Costume Gallery & Costume Classroom
http://www.costumegallery.com
http://www.costumeclassroom.com
http://www.onlinecostumeball.com


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At 9:35 PM -0500 4/7/03, Catherine Olanich Raymond wrote:
>On Monday 07 April 2003 04:39 pm, Audrey Bergeron-Morin wrote:



>  >Probably happened because of Leo's pretty face.
>
>Never understood that, either.  Leo isn't *that* pretty, and his subsequent
>films have shown he's not that much of an actor, either.  But he had great
>chemistry with Winslet, and that made the love scenes much more convincing
>than they otherwise would have been.

Sticking with costume flicks so that this is still marginally on topic ....

I think the movie that  best illustrates the deficiencies in Leo's 
acting is the remake of "Man in the Iron Mask" in which he plays the 
dual role of the two royal brothers.  As the bewildered former 
mask-wearer who has been shut away from virtually all interaction and 
is trying to learn how to be human, he worked very well.  As the 
capricious and sophisticated king of France, he stank.  (But then, he 
wasn't the only actor who stank in that film.)

Heather
-- 
*****
Heather Rose Jones
hrjones@socrates.berkeley.edu
*****
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Thanks, Danielle, that's good to know, because *of course* I'll be going
back! <g>
--sue, wannabe world traveler

Danielle Nunn-Weinberg wrote:
> 
> 
> The change has only been in the past year - Jan 2002 no problem, Jan 2003
> no photos.  Apparently (I had this from the textile curator), the MoL
> discovered a website or multiple websites (can't remember which) with very
> poor quality photographs of some of their collection.  Apparently these
> websites were negatively affecting the museum image so the slapped a ban on
> all photography (unless you get specific permission and sign a
> waiver).  So, if you want to take photos there, contact the museum ahead of
> time and you can probably get permission to take some photos of a specific
> area or item.
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Linda J. Thompson wrote:

> I have 2 of those adult dolls.... I purchased them when we needed
something to put inside
> mermaid costumes when we painted the fabric.
>
> They are way to small for most applications and the shoulders have no
definition to them,
> so they most likely would not be suitable to display anything other than
perhaps a childs
> outfit.  Which would be just wrong somehow...
>

I totally agree, you might raise the suspicions of the authorities who would
get a search warrant for your house and computer and only to find your
database full of copyright images!!!  Best not to attract too much
attention!!

Lisa


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Oh, my, they really are striking, aren't they?
She's got such a great smile!
--sue, who has anti-ringlet hair, herself....*sniff*

Penny Ladnier wrote:
> 
> Well I am returning to this subject because I just received my daughter's
> school photo and you can clearly see one of her streaks.  You can see her
> photo at
> www.costumegallery.com/Katie2003.jpg . It is hard to see but her hair is in
> dozens of ringlets.  The two lighter colored ringlets in the front bleach
> out white blonde in the summer.  These streaks are what people think are
> hair extensions.  It is hard to see the streak on other side because it is
> pulled to the back in ringlets.
> 
> BTW, her hair is naturally curly and thick.  All we do to make the ringlets
> is wrap her wet hair around a pencil and then slide it out.  Her hair stayed
> in these ringlets for a week without gel or hairspray.  It also took me two
> hours to make all the ringlets.  Her hair is about shoulder blade length
> when not in ringlets.
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From: "Wanda Pease" <wandap@hevanet.com>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: RE: [h-cost] Henslowe's Diary was - more on Cloth of Gold and  Silver
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I notice that Henslowe's Diary has been reprinted as of 2002 by R.A. Foakes.
You can get a paperback copy on Amazon for $29.00.  Not nice and searchable,
but definitely available.

Want to watch that copyright thing that we don't speak about in polite
company any more <grin>

Got my xerox of the ILL Furnival of Stubbes.  Now what do we do?  Start
Typing?  Do we want to do it in ASCII so everyone can read it as they do
with Project Gutenberg, or do we want to Adobe it and .pdf?

Regina/Wanda


> -----Original Message-----
> From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com]On
> Behalf Of Kimiko Small
> Sent: Monday, April 07, 2003 8:58 PM
> To: Historical Costume
> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Henslowe's Diary was - more on Cloth of Gold and
> Silver
>
>
> At 11:50 PM 4/7/2003 -0600, you wrote:
> >I'll have
> >to see how to make it deliverable to other people's computers.
>
> MySQL is a great online database, according to my hubby.
>
> Kimiko
>
>
>
> Kimiko Small
> Costumer, Fiber Artist, Web Designer, Wife and Mother
> kimiko@kimiko1.com; http://www.kimiko1.com
>
> Graphic Intern at Costume Gallery
> http://www.costumegallery.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
>
>


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Subject: [h-cost] Cher Concert
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So how many of you watched Cher's Farewell Concert tonight on TV?  My
husband bought tickets to the Philly show last July for our anniversary.
The TV concert left out a lot of the in-between shots with the people
swinging from the rafters.  Cher changed costumes after every one or two
songs.  So there was a lot of videoclips, dancers, and the rafter swingers
in between costume changes.

So what was your favorite costume?  Did you notice that a lot of the
costumes were period inspired?  I really liked the Victor/Victoria like red
costume.  She carried the costume so well... it fit her sassy personality.
The TV really didn't do justice to the magnificence of the elephant on
stage.  What a great set!

BTW... update on the stolen wig Cher wig from Richmond... it was worn during
the elephant set.  Cher has it back and she didn't press charges.

I was thrilled to see the concert close-up on TV.  We had tickets on the
first tier of the coliseum and mainly had to watch the video screens for
Cher.  I am so spoiled... I worked for three years in the second row of a
concert amphitheater.  My husband was security to the stars and stayed with
them.  We got to see about 200 shows from just in front of the stage.  We
were told then by the staff, that once you go to a concert out of this
venue, you will never see them like them as much again.  This is so true.
The people in the front rows really enjoy their music and we had fun!!!  If
anyone has the opportunity to every work these types of shows... it is a
lifetime experience and the party of a lifetime... okay, I'll confess, I
didn't enjoy Yanni and Raffi shows.  (there was a price of patience to pay)

The only time I have seen concerts out of this venue and had good seats...
we had a front row seats for a Paul McCarthney and Wings concert in 1990.
Luck of the draw, we bought them the day of the show and paid regular price.
Then made a mad dash to DC to see the show.  Funny, all our front row
tickets for Wings didn't cost as much as we paid for the Cher concert in the
first tier.

Penny Ladnier
Owner, The Costume Gallery & Costume Classroom
http://www.costumegallery.com
http://www.costumeclassroom.com
http://www.onlinecostumeball.com


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From: Jacobson Dawn <dme_maud@pacbell.net>
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Brenda wrote:

<really big snip>

>I know the Cali. Faires are much better in this
respect than others.

I've been told that they've gone considerably downhill
since REC bought 
them out. Anyone familiar with care to comment?

Well, I had this long thing written out, and I asked
my DH, Stephen, who's the Assistant Guildmaster for
St. Michael's Guild (the military) at RPFN, and has
worked for the past 10 years at "Northern," both for
the Pattersons and for REC. "Jakob" sez:

"No, it hasn't gone downhill at all. At this point,
it's staying steady; nobody is pushing the envelope,
but the quality is still the same, and (in my not so
humble opinion) is far better than most of what's out
there." Take a look at Renaissance Magazine (we get it
delivered to the house); most of those fairs don't
have anything to do with Elizabethan England or the
Renaissance."

My own comments: RPFN hasn't really changed very much,
because most of the people that worked for the
Pattersons continued to work for REC, so there's
continuity with regards to costume requirements. Also,
St. Michael's is a "subcontracted" guild; many of the
members of St. Michael's are members of the
Renaissance Military Society, a local reenactment
group.

This should also prove an interesting year for Bay
Area Renaissance re-enactors, as we have 2
long-running fairs going on this summer: The Heart of
the Forest Faire (run by Kevin & Leslie Patterson)
opens July 12 and runs through August 10 in Novato;
RPFN workshops begin August 9, and RPFN runs from
September 6 through October 19.

Dawn

=====
Dawn Jacobson
Vallejo, CA, USA

Learn the rules well, so you can break them properly.
--Dalai Lama
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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
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At 2:05 PM -0400 4/7/03, Brenda Bell wrote:
>>I know the Cali. Faires are much better in this respect than others.
>
>I've been told that they've gone considerably downhill since REC 
>bought them out. Anyone familiar with care to comment?

Well, yes and no :) I can at least give you *my* California viewpoint.

The faires REC has bought have always had a fairly strong "Faire 
culture", which tends to rely at least as much on Faire "traditions" 
as on history. I worked Renaissance Pleasure Faire North for several 
years including that transition, and I didn't see any changes in 
_costuming_ that I could attribute to the change in ownership. (In 
entertainment yes, costume no.)

In general, with some exceptions and some allowance for such 
"traditions," these faires IMHO do a reasonable job of approximating 
the look of Elizabethan clothing as it was understood about twenty to 
thirty years ago. The "lowest common denominator" for women is a 
basic front-laced bodice, multiple gathered skirts, a gathered blouse 
and a mob cap. For men it's knee-length breeches or puffy short pants 
with tights, some sort of doublet or jerkin, a full-cut shirt and a 
hat.

I have, however, seen some peculiarities of costume there that I 
can't see as historical -- for instance, the wearing of a fur "tail" 
hanging from the back of a bodice or doublet. But since they are 
Faire tradition -- and most seem to have been well established before 
the buyout -- they are accepted. (This one I think originated in a 
misunderstanding of the ornamental fur pelts with jeweled heads and 
feet seen in some noble portraits.) If you want a list so we can all 
complain about it <g>, I can think of some others..... but that's 
kind of off the subject at the moment.

Judging by what I've seen myself, I'd actually say the REC faires 
seem to have found a level that _they_ feel comfortable with and are 
sticking to that. Some things have improved since the "old days." For 
instance, nobles don't all have to wear black anymore, and the wider 
availability of good reproduction armor and chain mail means that 
when you see actors in armor, it's usually the real thing. OTOH, some 
things have undoubtedly gone downhill. These Faires are basically 
their own genre, and you either like them or not. Many of the people 
who like these faires *are* interested in history to some extent, but 
the level to which they actually follow through on this varies.

[BTW, one of the problems in evaluating costume "standards" is that 
-- as one of my friends observed -- it's entirely too easy to compare 
the _best_ of whatever organization you're involved with, with the 
_average_ of the organization you're _not_ involved with. Inevitably 
the "other" organization looks worse. In addition, paying customers 
-- who can, and do, wear whatever they darn please -- are often 
included in people's mental picture of faire, along with the actors, 
who do at least have to pass a costume inspection. This biases the 
picture somewhat.]

California also has a lot of smaller, usually independent Renaissance 
Faires. Some are more history-oriented than others; some are frankly 
fantasy faires, complete with elves, goths, etc.

There's one new one in particular, having its second season this 
summer at Stafford Lake Park in Marin County, whose avowed aim is 
specifically to create a higher level of authenticity than the big 
faires have been doing. (Take a look at http://www.forestfaire.com if 
you want to see what it's like.)

But if I had to try to describe where things are "trending," I'd 
probably quote a line I heard in a comedy routine: "He leaped onto 
his horse and galloped off in all directions."
-- 
_________________________________________________________
O    Chris Laning
|     <claning@igc.org>
+    Davis, California
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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Wed Apr  9 01:28:37 2003
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Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2003 22:26:55 -0600
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Cher Concert
From: sylvia <sylvia@ntw.net>
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Didn't see the whole show but I was wondering how they did the Bang Bang
costumes--the ones that looked like tatoos all over Cher's and the dancers'
bodies. Do you think they were nude spandex leos with black applkiques? And
if so, they would have to have been pinned in place while the leos were on
mannequins.  But I don't see how they could have taken them off the
mannequins to sew them in place on the machine.  it would seem they would
have to be hand sewn while on the forms.  In any event, they must have been
incredibly labor-intensive.

Sylrog

on 4/8/03 10:06 PM, Penny Ladnier at penny@costumegallery.com wrote:

> So how many of you watched Cher's Farewell Concert tonight on TV?  My
> husband bought tickets to the Philly show last July for our anniversary.
> The TV concert left out a lot of the in-between shots with the people
> swinging from the rafters.  Cher changed costumes after every one or two
> songs.  So there was a lot of videoclips, dancers, and the rafter swingers
> in between costume changes.
> 
> So what was your favorite costume?  Did you notice that a lot of the
> costumes were period inspired?  I really liked the Victor/Victoria like red
> costume.  She carried the costume so well... it fit her sassy personality.
> The TV really didn't do justice to the magnificence of the elephant on
> stage.  What a great set!
> 
>

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In a message dated 4/8/2003 9:41:49 PM Pacific Daylight Time, sylvia@ntw.net 
writes:

> it would seem they would
> have to be hand sewn while on the forms.  In any event, they must have been
> incredibly labor-intensive.
> 
> Sylrog
> 

It looked to me as if they painted the costumes, as in "Cats".

Darla
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Return to white streaks
Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2003 01:05:05 -0400
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Sue,

I have anti-ringlet hair too... board straight.  When I used to perm and it
took three times for it to take.  What a joy to have Katie's hair to play
with.

I was surprised by the big smile today... someone must have been making her
laugh.  She is a giggle box and class clown.  A common trait of the youngest
child in a big family.

Maybe I will take a photo when she is on swimteam this summer and let you
see how the streaks turn white.  BTW, I did take photos of the back of the
ringlet hairstyle... just haven't had them developed yet.  Actually I have
taken lots of hairstyle photos with her... some are step by step.  One day I
will get them on the web.

Penny Ladnier
Owner, The Costume Gallery & Costume Classroom
http://www.costumegallery.com
http://www.costumeclassroom.com
http://www.onlinecostumeball.com


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On Tuesday 08 April 2003 12:06 pm, Heather Rose Jones wrote:
> At 9:35 PM -0500 4/7/03, Catherine Olanich Raymond wrote:
> >On Monday 07 April 2003 04:39 pm, Audrey Bergeron-Morin wrote:
> >  >Probably happened because of Leo's pretty face.
> >
> >Never understood that, either.  Leo isn't *that* pretty, and his
> > subsequent films have shown he's not that much of an actor, either.  But
> > he had great chemistry with Winslet, and that made the love scenes much
> > more convincing than they otherwise would have been.
>
> Sticking with costume flicks so that this is still marginally on topic ....
>
> I think the movie that  best illustrates the deficiencies in Leo's
> acting is the remake of "Man in the Iron Mask" in which he plays the
> dual role of the two royal brothers. 

Managed to miss it.

>As the bewildered former
> mask-wearer who has been shut away from virtually all interaction and
> is trying to learn how to be human, he worked very well. 

<grin> Acting is always easiest when you have to be on screen what you are in 
real life.  :-)

> As the
> capricious and sophisticated king of France, he stank.  (But then, he
> wasn't the only actor who stank in that film.)

No surprise.  I'm trying to remember the last thing I saw him in, which I 
think was, in fact, another period piece.  Hold on....

[break for Google search of Internet Movie Data Base]

Nope, I'm wrong. Must have been some other pretty face.  Guess I was wrong and 
haven't seen his post-Titanic stuff after all.  :-)


-- 
Cathy Raymond <cathy@thyrsus.com>

"Intelligence is the ultimate aphrodisiac."  Timothy Leary

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I've been working on an evening dress for CostumeCon's Friday social, and
just realized that my husband won't be home to help me mark the hem! Anyone
nearby that could spare an hour to help?

**********************
Rebecca Schmitt
aka Agnes Cabot, wife of Master Peter Cabot
BRF FOF; Guilde of St. Lawrence

A room without books is like a body without a soul
---Cicero

lotsofteapots@charter.net
**********************


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From: "Penny Ladnier" <penny@costumegallery.com>
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Cher Concert
Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2003 01:15:26 -0400
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Bob Mackie is always labor intensive with his costumes.  He designed this
and the 1999 show.  These were beige leotards with the designs on them.  I
got a really good look at Cher's.  There was a lot of perfectly matched nude
fabric used on her costumes.  I video taped the show, so I can go back and
for a look-see.

The 1999  Cher Believe tour is on video-tape and DVD.  It is just as good as
tonight's show.  At one point models come out wearing either the originals
or Mackie repros of Cher's most famous costumes.  A real treat.

Penny Ladnier
Owner, The Costume Gallery & Costume Classroom
http://www.costumegallery.com
http://www.costumeclassroom.com
http://www.onlinecostumeball.com


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Subject: [h-cost] Costume exhibit, NYC, next year?
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A medievalist friend writes, "I missed some of the details, but there will
be an exhibition of historic costumes in NYC next year ca. March.  It will
coincide with the Renaissance Society's annual conference."

That's all he remembers, and so that's all I know. If anyone who is more
clued in, I'm sure I'm not the only one who'd love something more
concrete.

--Robin


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Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2003 08:44:32 +0100 (BST)
From: =?iso-8859-1?q?N=20Kipar?= <nicolas_fouquet@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: costume in academia, Re: [h-cost] costume data bases  
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 --- kat@grendal.rain.com wrote: > 

> I guess I'm just against history being separated into "women's 
> history" and "real history". 

This is NOT teh case. Whatever and whoever made you think that, it is not true.
Women's historical studies is, to not say it elegantly, a sub-history field of
study, just like economic history is, but it is by no means not not real
history, you have a wrong concept there. 

I think that women's history isn't a 
> separate issue. I think that your study shouldn't be shunted off into 
> a "Women's Studies" thing but be right in there with the other 
> history. 

It is NOT shunted off into anything!

Putting it with "social history" makes much more sense to me 
> than having it gender specific. (It's a "separate but equal" thing. 
> The more we try to separate things, the easier it is to shunt it 
> aside as not being as important.)

Oh for crying out loud, this is not about it being gender specific or shunted
or not equal or anything, what do you know about historiography and
particularly women's studies? Why the heck would it be about being seperated?
This is a focus, a particular interest, and women's studies draws as much from
social history and other particular areas of focus as from other sub-historic
studies, and vice versa! It is a very wrong concept and dangerous thought to
think it is separated, it is merely a particular focus, I could have researched
men's studies and fashion, but I didn't choose to, because Early Modern English
Women's Studies is bloody fascinating.

Okay... that's my last words, I herewith hand back to your regular
costume-talk.

Nicole


=====
"Brains, not Bombs"
http://www.stopthewar.org.uk/

Nicole Kipar M.A.
URL: http://www.kipar.org/
Email: nicole@kipar.org

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For those of you interested, The Costume Museum at Bath has started allowing photography.
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> The only time I have seen concerts out of this venue and had good seats...
> we had a front row seats for a Paul McCarthney and Wings concert in 1990.


  whimper...Paul McCartney... front row...

Dianne

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From: "Lisa Sinervo" <lisa-list@threadneedlest.com>
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Subject: Re: costume in academia, Re: [h-cost] costume data bases  
Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2003 04:42:37 -0700
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Nicole,

One would not want to be caught dead in a "Women's Studies" program here in
the U.S.   It has the connotation of being sort of a "sheltered workshop"
degree,  something set up because some self absorbed whiny women in the
seventies couldn't hack the mainstream offerings so they packed the whingers
off, gave them their own program and breathed a big sigh of relieve they
finally shut up.

That's why people are making the comments they are about "women's history".

It's a shame, its much worse than saying you study costume.

Lisa




----- Original Message -----
From: "N Kipar" <nicolas_fouquet@yahoo.com>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2003 12:44 AM
Subject: Re: costume in academia, Re: [h-cost] costume data bases


> --- kat@grendal.rain.com wrote: >
>
> > I guess I'm just against history being separated into "women's
> > history" and "real history".
>
> This is NOT teh case. Whatever and whoever made you think that, it is not
true.
> Women's historical studies is, to not say it elegantly, a sub-history
field of
> study, just like economic history is, but it is by no means not not real
> history, you have a wrong concept there.
>
> I think that women's history isn't a
> > separate issue. I think that your study shouldn't be shunted off into
> > a "Women's Studies" thing but be right in there with the other
> > history.
>
> It is NOT shunted off into anything!
>
> Putting it with "social history" makes much more sense to me
> > than having it gender specific. (It's a "separate but equal" thing.
> > The more we try to separate things, the easier it is to shunt it
> > aside as not being as important.)
>
> Oh for crying out loud, this is not about it being gender specific or
shunted
> or not equal or anything, what do you know about historiography and
> particularly women's studies? Why the heck would it be about being
seperated?
> This is a focus, a particular interest, and women's studies draws as much
from
> social history and other particular areas of focus as from other
sub-historic
> studies, and vice versa! It is a very wrong concept and dangerous thought
to
> think it is separated, it is merely a particular focus, I could have
researched
> men's studies and fashion, but I didn't choose to, because Early Modern
English
> Women's Studies is bloody fascinating.
>
> Okay... that's my last words, I herewith hand back to your regular
> costume-talk.
>
> Nicole
>
>
> =====
> "Brains, not Bombs"
> http://www.stopthewar.org.uk/
>
> Nicole Kipar M.A.
> URL: http://www.kipar.org/
> Email: nicole@kipar.org
>
> __________________________________________________
> Yahoo! Plus
> For a better Internet experience
> http://www.yahoo.co.uk/btoffer
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To: "'Historical Costume'" <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: RE: [h-cost] Re: Renfaire costuming accuracy
Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2003 07:38:24 -0500
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Does Janet Winter (IIRC) know they are using illustrations from her
"Elizabethan costuming" to advise the patrons?

http://www.forestfaire.com/visitors-costume.html

just wondering- it's good advice, but also for sale.
Betsy

-----Original Message-----
From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com]
On Behalf Of Chris Laning
Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2003 11:21 PM
To: Historical Costume
Subject: [h-cost] Re: Renfaire costuming accuracy

At 2:05 PM -0400 4/7/03, Brenda Bell wrote:
>>I know the Cali. Faires are much better in this respect than others.
>
>I've been told that they've gone considerably downhill since REC 
>bought them out. Anyone familiar with care to comment?

Well, yes and no :) I can at least give you *my* California viewpoint.

The faires REC has bought have always had a fairly strong "Faire 
culture", which tends to rely at least as much on Faire "traditions" 
as on history. I worked Renaissance Pleasure Faire North for several 
years including that transition, and I didn't see any changes in 
_costuming_ that I could attribute to the change in ownership. (In 
entertainment yes, costume no.)

In general, with some exceptions and some allowance for such 
"traditions," these faires IMHO do a reasonable job of approximating 
the look of Elizabethan clothing as it was understood about twenty to 
thirty years ago. The "lowest common denominator" for women is a 
basic front-laced bodice, multiple gathered skirts, a gathered blouse 
and a mob cap. For men it's knee-length breeches or puffy short pants 
with tights, some sort of doublet or jerkin, a full-cut shirt and a 
hat.

I have, however, seen some peculiarities of costume there that I 
can't see as historical -- for instance, the wearing of a fur "tail" 
hanging from the back of a bodice or doublet. But since they are 
Faire tradition -- and most seem to have been well established before 
the buyout -- they are accepted. (This one I think originated in a 
misunderstanding of the ornamental fur pelts with jeweled heads and 
feet seen in some noble portraits.) If you want a list so we can all 
complain about it <g>, I can think of some others..... but that's 
kind of off the subject at the moment.

Judging by what I've seen myself, I'd actually say the REC faires 
seem to have found a level that _they_ feel comfortable with and are 
sticking to that. Some things have improved since the "old days." For 
instance, nobles don't all have to wear black anymore, and the wider 
availability of good reproduction armor and chain mail means that 
when you see actors in armor, it's usually the real thing. OTOH, some 
things have undoubtedly gone downhill. These Faires are basically 
their own genre, and you either like them or not. Many of the people 
who like these faires *are* interested in history to some extent, but 
the level to which they actually follow through on this varies.

[BTW, one of the problems in evaluating costume "standards" is that 
-- as one of my friends observed -- it's entirely too easy to compare 
the _best_ of whatever organization you're involved with, with the 
_average_ of the organization you're _not_ involved with. Inevitably 
the "other" organization looks worse. In addition, paying customers 
-- who can, and do, wear whatever they darn please -- are often 
included in people's mental picture of faire, along with the actors, 
who do at least have to pass a costume inspection. This biases the 
picture somewhat.]

California also has a lot of smaller, usually independent Renaissance 
Faires. Some are more history-oriented than others; some are frankly 
fantasy faires, complete with elves, goths, etc.

There's one new one in particular, having its second season this 
summer at Stafford Lake Park in Marin County, whose avowed aim is 
specifically to create a higher level of authenticity than the big 
faires have been doing. (Take a look at http://www.forestfaire.com if 
you want to see what it's like.)

But if I had to try to describe where things are "trending," I'd 
probably quote a line I heard in a comedy routine: "He leaped onto 
his horse and galloped off in all directions."
-- 
_________________________________________________________
O    Chris Laning
|     <claning@igc.org>
+    Davis, California
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Oh, MAN! When???? They sure didn't when I was there last fall, and I
would have done just about anything to take a couple of pictures of the
Elizabethan shirts.....
Cr@p....why am I always off in my timing? <grump, grump, grump.....>
--sue, who will just have to day-trip it on the train from London, the
next time she gets to Britain....

Kitsune242@aol.com wrote:
> 
> For those of you interested, The Costume Museum at Bath has started allowing photography.
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Subject: [h-cost] Renfest costuming accuracy-short rant
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Sigh, this subject line really hits home.  I had been costume mistress
for a local faire for several years (with the help of Linda T., Hi :) ).
 I originally signed on as 1: loved faire, 2: loved historic costuming. 
I really enjoyed helping those folks that wanted to learn create as
period a costume as possible for their character.  I learned a lot about
theatrical costuming along the way and understand that a certain amount
of this can be needed at a faire.  

I got burned out by all the actors who didn't care about their costumes
and the PTB who seemed to think 'Disney' was primary costuming
resource.

Just a little bit of venting,
Catherine

PS: Heather;  yeah, Man in the Iron Mask had some problems but ooooooh
did I love Gabriel Byrne :) :) :).
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Rebecca, I'm nowhere near you, but I will be at CostumeCon, and I will be
very happy to help you hem your garment - if you don't mind waiting until
the last minute! I'm arriving Wednesday evening so I can have a day or two
of sightseeing and museum-hopping.  (Plus, I have an ulterior motive - I'll
be by myself, and would love to meet some other h-cost list members!)  If
you like you can contact me privately.

Allison

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References: <HGEEKKPFPKOJBDPGKLOCAELNGLAA.wandap@hevanet.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Henslowe's Diary was - more on Cloth of Gold and  Silver
Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2003 15:46:09 +0100
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Wanda wrote:

Subject: RE: [h-cost] Henslowe's Diary was - more on Cloth of Gold and
Silver


> I notice that Henslowe's Diary has been reprinted as of 2002 by R.A.
Foakes.
> You can get a paperback copy on Amazon for $29.00.  Not nice and
searchable,
> but definitely available.
>


Um, well, you might want to note that

a. although people call it 'Henslowe's Diary' it is not a diary

b. Reg Foakes' book is in fact a new edition of his original
indispensible edition of a part of the document usually known as
'Henslowe's diary', long out of print and impossible to lay hands on
outside specialist libraries and on ILL

c. It's not a facsimile of  the document; people might like to bear in
mind that reading a facsimile of that kind is extremely difficult
without very extensive experience of the language and usages of the
period. And even if you have all of that it's still very difficult;
Henslowe was a great man, wholly untramelled by any desire to make his
jottings comprehensible to anyone other than himself. And I sometimes
wonder whether even that worried him...

> Want to watch that copyright thing that we don't speak about in
polite
> company any more <grin>


Um, well, you might want to note in particular c. above. For the vast
majority of people it's no Reg, no Henslowe. And his new edition is
the best bargain you will ever get.

Oh, and he was one of the original Founding Fellows of the Shakespeare
Institute back in 1951, and an absolute sweetheart.

best wishes
Stevie





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Date: Wed, 09 Apr 2003 09:01:08 -0600
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Cher Concert
From: sylvia <sylvia@ntw.net>
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
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They weren't painted.  I looked at them close-up and could see what looked
like the outlines of the black fabric on top of the nude leotards.

on 4/8/03 11:04 PM, DarlaKDavis@aol.com at DarlaKDavis@aol.com wrote:

> In a message dated 4/8/2003 9:41:49 PM Pacific Daylight Time, sylvia@ntw.net
> writes:
> 
>> it would seem they would
>> have to be hand sewn while on the forms.  In any event, they must have been
>> incredibly labor-intensive.
>> 
>> Sylrog
>> 
> 
> It looked to me as if they painted the costumes, as in "Cats".
> 
>

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From: Jacobson Dawn <dme_maud@pacbell.net>
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Subject: [h-cost] OT: An FYI for Maidenhead's COS
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Ron Carnegie recently posted about Maidenhead's COS
(Company of Shot); at almost the same time an e-mail
was posted to another reenactment list, letting
everyone know that Bryan Kramer, late of Maidenhead's
COS is now Major Bryan Kramer, USMC, with the 3rd Inf.
Div. and is dining in Baghdad this evening (Wednesday,
4/9/03).

Dawn


=====
Dawn Jacobson
Vallejo, CA, USA

Learn the rules well, so you can break them properly.
--Dalai Lama
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Betsy wrote:

<<Does Janet Winter (IIRC) know they are using
illustrations from her
"Elizabethan costuming" to advise the patrons?>>

My guess is "probably," as she and Carolyn Schultz
(now Savoy) wrote their book when Carolyn was the
costume director for RPF, and worked for the
Pattersons.

Dawn


=====
Dawn Jacobson
Vallejo, CA, USA

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On Wed, 9 Apr 2003 00:06:38 -0400 "Penny Ladnier"
<penny@costumegallery.com> writes:
> 
> So what was your favorite costume?  Did you notice that a lot of the
> costumes were period inspired?  I really liked the Victor/Victoria like
red
> costume.  She carried the costume so well... it fit her sassy
personality.
> The TV really didn't do justice to the magnificence of the elephant on
> stage.  What a great set!
> 

        I taped the whole thing, because I just love alot of the costumes
that she wears.  I liked the start of this concert, and just might be
integrating parts of some of those costumes into my barbarian stuff.  My
head was going in circles with everything that was swarming through. 
I'll have to watch it again to remember everything I want to do!

Astrid 
Never argue with a dragon, for thou art crunchy and go well with Brie.
    http://www.geocities.com/astridofthehorde
     ICQ #           67785514
     MSN            btana_qul_mupwi
     Yahoo          lady_btana

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>>Bryan Kramer, late of Maidenhead's
COS is now Major Bryan Kramer, USMC, with the 3rd Inf.
Div. and is dining in Baghdad this evening (Wednesday,
4/9/03).<<

May we see him safely home soon.

(amen)

Meagn 
TudorLdy@aol.com

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From: Jacobson Dawn <dme_maud@pacbell.net>
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Sylvia wrote:

<<They weren't painted.  I looked at them close-up and
could see what 
looked
like the outlines of the black fabric on top of the
nude leotards.>>

I wouldn't be at all surprised if they are, in spite
of the incredible expense. Bob Mackie is one of the
"old fashioned" costume designers: It will look
wonderful, no matter the cost.

Supposedly, Mackie bought up all the real silk souffle
when the mill that produced it shut down because it's
the only thing that really works for those gowns that
look like they're just beads on nothing. I used to
work in an office upstairs from Stella's Beads, who
did all the beaded embroidery for the Mackie shop; it
was fun to occasionally pop in and see what the ladies
(about 6 little old ladies, all busy plying their
needles around a big embroidery frame) were working on
for Mr. Mackie.

Oddly, in a very tangental way, Bob Mackie helped to
get me started in costuming. When I was little
(elementary school), one of my best friends'
grandmother worked for Bob Mackie, and she used to
bring scraps home from the shop for us to make doll
clothes. We had some of the best dressed Barbies
around, and I got spoiled using fine fabrics and
making interesting historical costumes for Barbie,
including an 18th century gown out of real silk
brocade. It's been downhill ever since. ;-)

Dawn 

=====
Dawn Jacobson
Vallejo, CA, USA

The world has truly gone crazy. The best rapper is a white guy, the best golfer is a black guy, the Swiss hold the Americas Cup, the French are accusing the United States of arrogance, and the Germans don't want to go to war.
                                                       --Chris Rock
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Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2003 11:52:03 -0700
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Heather Rose Jones <hrjones@socrates.berkeley.edu>
Subject: Re: costume in academia, Re: [h-cost] costume data bases
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At 8:44 AM +0100 4/9/03, N Kipar wrote:
>  --- kat@grendal.rain.com wrote: >
>
>>  I guess I'm just against history being separated into "women's
>>  history" and "real history".
>
>This is NOT teh case. Whatever and whoever made you think that, it 
>is not true.
>Women's historical studies is, to not say it elegantly, a sub-history field of
>study, just like economic history is, but it is by no means not not real
>history, you have a wrong concept there.
>
>I think that women's history isn't a
>>  separate issue. I think that your study shouldn't be shunted off into
>>  a "Women's Studies" thing but be right in there with the other
>>  history.
>
>It is NOT shunted off into anything!

<snip>

If I may be permitted to attempt to translate between posters ...

In my experience (which is largely with American academia, and covers 
the period from my undergraduate years in the late 70s through the 
present),  there have been times and institutions where the existence 
of a Women's Studies program was used as an excuse to keep History 
Departments fairly exclusively focused on "traditional" male-oriented 
history.  My experience is that this has been becoming generally less 
true in the last couple decades, but there are still plenty of 
individual hold-outs who are rather old-fashioned on the topic.

On the other hand, what Kat doesn't seem to be crediting (although I 
suspect she is aware of it) is that the current broadening of the 
understanding of "history" to include more social history and 
gender-related issues (for both genders) was to a significant extent 
made _possible_ by the creation of Women's Studies programs, which -- 
after nurturing a new generation of scholars back in the 70s and 80s 
-- re-infiltrated "regular" history programs and helped broaden the 
scope of the field in general.  Kat's perception is one that I think 
would have been reasonably accurate back in the 70-80s, but is no 
longer true generally true today.  But it's important to understand 
that, back in those days, it wasn't a matter of "shunting off" these 
topics from History departments to Women's Studies departments, but 
rather of creating programs in which topics that were being largely 
ignored by History departments could be studied and developed as a 
field.

I certainly agree that it would be wrong to set up "women's history" 
in opposition to "real history", but if you are dealing with an 
entrenched academic culture in which "real history" is a code-word 
for "men's history" (which certainly used to be the case) then it may 
be a temporary necessity.

I'm actually delighted that Nichole has the reaction that she does to 
this concept, because it means that the process has been successful 
in the institutions she's familiar with!

Heather
-- 
*****
Heather Rose Jones
hrjones@socrates.berkeley.edu
*****
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I was told two weeks ago.

Kit
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Date: Wed, 09 Apr 2003 15:45:54 -0700
From: Sidne Kneeland <skskaw@comcast.net>
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Subject: [h-cost] Slightly OT:  stage prop help
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Greetings, 

I have been asked to make a prop for a Home and Garden fair.  The prop is an 'oil slick.'  The kind that comes out of the cars.  We are laying an oil filling funnel by a drain grate.  I have to come up with some kind of oil slick.  Any ideas? 

Thanks,  

Sidne Kneeland  
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        How about a "puddle" of shiny black plastic fabric.  Use the
transparent paint made for faux stained glass and make some swirls on the
plastic.  Just a thought.

Lalah
Never give up, Never surrender
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: Wed, 09 Apr 2003 15:45:54 -0700
>
>Greetings,
>
>I have been asked to make a prop for a Home and Garden fair.  The prop is 
>an 'oil slick.'  The kind that comes out of the cars.  We are laying an oil 
>filling funnel by a drain grate.  I have to come up with some kind of oil 
>slick.  Any ideas?
>
Not historical by any means, but a "puddle" of shiney latex(dry of course).  
It would look very oil like, but lift up and roll away when you're done.

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Date: Wed, 09 Apr 2003 16:25:51 -0700
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: MaryAnn Jones <mabse@attbi.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Slightly OT:  stage prop help
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Hi Sidne, I have no advice for you, but as chief of the industrial 
stormwater program in California, I have to tell you that I write the 
requirements that lead to people like you being asked to do things like 
this.  Good luck with it, and remember only rain down the drain... Maryann

At 03:45 PM 4/9/2003 -0700, you wrote:
>Greetings,
>
>I have been asked to make a prop for a Home and Garden fair.  The prop is 
>an 'oil slick.'  The kind that comes out of the cars.  We are laying an 
>oil filling funnel by a drain grate.  I have to come up with some kind of 
>oil slick.  Any ideas?
>
>Thanks,
>
>Sidne Kneeland
>_______________________________________________
>h-costume mailing list
>h-costume@mail.indra.com
>http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume


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From: "Lisa Sinervo" <lisa-list@threadneedlest.com>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
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Subject: Re: costume in academia, Re: [h-cost] costume data bases
Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2003 17:39:33 -0700
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Heather Rose Jones wrote:
>
> I'm actually delighted that Nichole has the reaction that she does to
> this concept, because it means that the process has been successful
> in the institutions she's familiar with!
>

Wish that would trickle down to the general population too!  Thinking I
might have overstated my response, I asked a woman I have known for 6
working days what she would think if someone told her they were in a
"women's studies" program.  She looked at me cautiously and asked with some
intrepidation, if that was my major, and I gathered that if so, she would be
worried about sharing an office with me.  I said no, I was just curious as
the topic came up on this list.  Her impression was very negative in the
sterotypical way.   I asked the same question of a recent law grad in the
office and her response was also cautious, in trying not to potentially
offend me.  She thought such programs were separatist.  It is very sad that
"women's studies" is actually a joke now among the general population.

Lisa



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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Wed Apr  9 22:24:13 2003
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From: kat@grendal.rain.com
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> > I'm actually delighted that Nichole has the reaction that she does
> > to this concept, because it means that the process has been
> > successful in the institutions she's familiar with!
> >
> 
> Wish that would trickle down to the general population too!  Thinking
> I might have overstated my response, I asked a woman I have known for
> 6 working days what she would think if someone told her they were in a
> "women's studies" program.  She looked at me cautiously and asked with
> some intrepidation, if that was my major, and I gathered that if so,
> she would be worried about sharing an office with me.  I said no, I
> was just curious as the topic came up on this list.  Her impression
> was very negative in the sterotypical way.   I asked the same question
> of a recent law grad in the office and her response was also cautious,
> in trying not to potentially offend me.  She thought such programs
> were separatist.  It is very sad that "women's studies" is actually a
> joke now among the general population.

It was actually better a few years back. Things have been more 
negative in the past 5-10 years. I'm glad it's not that bad in 
England!

Kat
<kat@grendal.rain.com>


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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Cher Concert
Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2003 21:32:56 -0400
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Dianne,

It was wonderful!!!!!  I never ever thought I would get to see a Beatle in
real life.

Penny Ladnier
Owner, The Costume Gallery & Costume Classroom
http://www.costumegallery.com
http://www.costumeclassroom.com
http://www.onlinecostumeball.com


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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Cher Concert
Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2003 22:07:27 -0400
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He is extremely wonderful still, isn't he? I've seen him twice, but never
from front row!

OB costume content--I love the hippie clothing of the 60's. I ahve several
pattern from approximately that time period. I may dress as a hippie all
summer!

Dianne
----- Original Message -----
From: "Penny Ladnier" <penny@costumegallery.com>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2003 9:32 PM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Cher Concert


> Dianne,
>
> It was wonderful!!!!!  I never ever thought I would get to see a Beatle in
> real life.
>
> Penny Ladnier
> Owner, The Costume Gallery & Costume Classroom
> http://www.costumegallery.com
> http://www.costumeclassroom.com
> http://www.onlinecostumeball.com
>
>
> [This E-mail was scanned for viruses by Plugit.com Virus Scanners
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>
> _______________________________________________
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Subject: Re: costume in academia, Re: [h-cost] costume data bases
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On Wednesday 09 April 2003 03:44 am, N Kipar wrote:
>  --- kat@grendal.rain.com wrote: >
>
> > I guess I'm just against history being separated into "women's
> > history" and "real history".
>
> This is NOT teh case. Whatever and whoever made you think that, it is not
> true. Women's historical studies is, to not say it elegantly, a sub-history
> field of study, just like economic history is, but it is by no means not
> not real history, you have a wrong concept there.

I suspect Kat agrees with you, Nicole. As do I.  But in the US, there is a 
very real perception that grouping particular issues, or particular subtopics 
in economics, history, social studies, etc., under the rubric "women's 
studies" accomplishes nothing other than to advance a feminist agenda.  And 
there are people who resent that.  Just as there are people who resent 
applying the same principle to grouping certain subtopics in economics, 
history, etc. under the rubric "black history" which is also done in some 
universities.


> > I think that women's history isn't a
> > separate issue. I think that your study shouldn't be shunted off into
> > a "Women's Studies" thing but be right in there with the other
> > history.
>
> It is NOT shunted off into anything!

But, you'll notice, no one has ever suggested isolating subtopics of 
economics, history, social studies that primarily involve men and male 
interests as "men's studies."  :-)  Thus the irony that the study of costume 
is occasionally grouped with "women's studies" despite the fact that, before 
the Industrial Revolution, display of wealth and position through costume was 
a very important activity for men.


> > Putting it with "social history" makes much more sense to me
> > than having it gender specific. (It's a "separate but equal" thing.
> > The more we try to separate things, the easier it is to shunt it
> > aside as not being as important.)
>
> Oh for crying out loud, this is not about it being gender specific or
> shunted or not equal or anything, what do you know about historiography and
> particularly women's studies? Why the heck would it be about being
> seperated? This is a focus, a particular interest, and women's studies
> draws as much from social history and other particular areas of focus as
> from other sub-historic studies, and vice versa! It is a very wrong concept
> and dangerous thought to think it is separated, it is merely a particular
> focus, I could have researched men's studies and fashion, but I didn't
> choose to, because Early Modern English Women's Studies is bloody
> fascinating.

As is Early Modern English studies in general.  



> Okay... that's my last words, I herewith hand back to your regular
> costume-talk.

Whew.  Thank heaven.  :-)


-- 
Cathy Raymond <cathy@thyrsus.com>

"Intelligence is the ultimate aphrodisiac."  Timothy Leary

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Hi. Glad to know that one of our own is well. The tanks that are
providing cover for him are from my old unit ( 3-63 Armor, 3rd Bde., 3rd
ID, part of Task Force 1-64). Poor Marines, being assigned to a U.S.
Army unit, they must be so embarrassed ;) God Save the Queen!  Mike T.,
an old retired treadhead

Jacobson Dawn wrote:

> Ron Carnegie recently posted about Maidenhead's COS
> (Company of Shot); at almost the same time an e-mail
> was posted to another reenactment list, letting
> everyone know that Bryan Kramer, late of Maidenhead's
> COS is now Major Bryan Kramer, USMC, with the 3rd Inf.
> Div. and is dining in Baghdad this evening (Wednesday,
> 4/9/03).
>
> Dawn
>
> =====
> Dawn Jacobson
> Vallejo, CA, USA
>
> Learn the rules well, so you can break them properly.
> --Dalai Lama
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

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From: Ron Carnegie <r.carnegie@verizon.net>
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: Re: [h-cost] OT: An FYI for Maidenhead's COS
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> 
> From: leigh tartaglio <mikes@dandy.net>
> Date: 2003/04/09 Wed PM 11:41:43 EDT
> To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
> Subject: Re: [h-cost] OT: An FYI for Maidenhead's COS
> 
> Hi. Glad to know that one of our own is well. The tanks that are
> providing cover for him are from my old unit ( 3-63 Armor, 3rd Bde., 3rd
> ID, part of Task Force 1-64). Poor Marines, being assigned to a U.S.
> Army unit, they must be so embarrassed ;) God Save the Queen!  Mike T.,
> an old retired treadhead

    He isn't actually.  There are a few mistakes in the previous post and that one I suspect was from me!  Bryan's wife had told me that he had been attached to the 3rd, and I recently told Danny Mcgee, which is where I suspect that Dawn got it.  He is actually with the 15th Marines Expeditionary Force (Special Operations Capable.  He told me this himself through email (imagine being online in a combat zone!).  He wasn't ever really a member of Maidenheads either, though we would have welcomed him warmly, he was a member of Tim Finkas' Mariners.  Not in a very week attempt at making this topical, Tim, who is Bryan's brother and law, and Tim's mother both are very capable costumers on their own right and Tim has recently gone into business casting brass fittings see
http://finkas.home.netcom.com/HSB/HSBMAIN.html

Cheers,
Ron
> 
> Jacobson Dawn wrote:
> 
> > Ron Carnegie recently posted about Maidenhead's COS
> > (Company of Shot); at almost the same time an e-mail
> > was posted to another reenactment list, letting
> > everyone know that Bryan Kramer, late of Maidenhead's
> > COS is now Major Bryan Kramer, USMC, with the 3rd Inf.
> > Div. and is dining in Baghdad this evening (Wednesday,
> > 4/9/03).
> >
> > Dawn
> >
> > =====
> > Dawn Jacobson
> > Vallejo, CA, USA
> >
> > Learn the rules well, so you can break them properly.
> > --Dalai Lama
> > _______________________________________________
> > h-costume mailing list
> > h-costume@mail.indra.com
> > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
> 
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
> 

R.Carnegie@verizon.net
"Argue for your limitations, and they are yours."
             R. Bach

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From: Ron Carnegie <r.carnegie@verizon.net>
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: Re: [h-cost] Henslowe's Diary was - more on Cloth of Gold and
	Silver
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> 
> From: "Stevie Gamble" <stevie.gamble@btinternet.com>
> Date: 2003/04/09 Wed AM 10:46:09 EDT
> To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Henslowe's Diary was - more on Cloth of Gold and  Silver

> 
> c. It's not a facsimile of  the document; people might like to bear in
> mind that reading a facsimile of that kind is extremely difficult
> without very extensive experience of the language and usages of the
> period. And even if you have all of that it's still very difficult;
> Henslowe was a great man, wholly untramelled by any desire to make his
> jottings comprehensible to anyone other than himself. And I sometimes
> wonder whether even that worried him...
> 
   My understanding is that a much the "diary" isn't even the work of Henslowe, b ut rather his son in law Edward Alleyn.  Edward was actually managing the Rose by the 1590s.  It is also because of him that they survive as he donated them to the College of God's Gift which he apparently founded.

Cheers,
Ron

R.Carnegie@verizon.net
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             R. Bach

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Date: Wed, 09 Apr 2003 23:32:14 -0500
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Danielle Nunn-Weinberg <dannw@attbi.com>
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Regular anytime photography?  When I was there in January it was still by 
appointment only and had to be done outside of regular museum hours (it was 
really cool wandering around in the museum by myself).  I know this was the 
same last year as well (except I wasn't allowed to wander freely).  Has 
this changed?

Cheers,
Danielle

At 05:35 AM 4/9/2003 -0400, you wrote:
>For those of you interested, The Costume Museum at Bath has started 
>allowing photography.
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There are several databases for legal decisions, etc., that one can
subscribe to.  We use Westlaw and Lexis/Nexis and they run approximately
$800 per month, but they have absolutely no graphics.  We used to use the CD
format, but the law changes so rapidly it wasn't worth it.  We split the
subscription costs with each attorney, and everyone has their own logon id.

I think for graphics CD's are the way to go.

Costume content:  My husband's green tie matched his shirt nicely today
::g::

angela
+++++
Angela F. Lazear
Cabbage Rose Costumes
http://www.cabbagerosecostumes.com
Theatrical Costume Design
"If to do were as easy as to know what were good to do,
chapels had been churches,
and poor men's cottages princes' palaces."
The Merchant of Venice, I, ii - William Shakespeare


----- Original Message -----
From: "Nancy Kiel" <nancy_kiel@hotmail.com>
To: <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2003 8:34 AM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: costume data bases


> Isn't there a database system for legal decisions?  I seem to remember
> clients being billed for the time spent searching for applicable cases.
> Perhaps all the costume info could be entered by whomever has it, and then
> when someone searches for something they pay per hit?  So if I wanted to
see
> every woman's Italian garment, in any medium or text, between 1250 and
1495,
> and I got 3,000 hits, I could decide if I wanted to pay for all of them,
or
> limit the search further and pay for the ones I actually look at, and pay
a
> central company that pays out to the various museums, scholars etc. whose
> work/info I use.  Would this solve the copyright problem?
>
> And for a name, we could call it "Clothing as a reflection or indicator of
> physical and temporal location, economic status, religious belief, and
> personal choice" or CRIPTLERP for short.   Just a thought.
>
>
> Nancy Kiel
> nancy_kiel@hotmail.com
> Never tease a weasel!
> This is very good advice.
> For the weasel will not like it
> And teasing isn't nice.
>
>
>
>
>
> >From: Brenda Bell <webwarren@earthlink.net>
> >Reply-To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
> >To: h-costume@indra.com
> >Subject: [h-cost] Re: costume data bases Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2003 07:35:37
> >-0400
> >
> >"Lisa Sinervo" <lisa-list@threadneedlest.com> wrote:
> >
> >>You know, I bet there would be some money in publishing
> >>costume data bases, not just books.  It would be great to buy a CD by
> >>fashion period, with the correct fabric samples, buttons, portraits
> >>etc....... wouldn't that be grand!
> >
> >Now, *physical* samples would be difficult...
> >
> >However, the rest of it? I work for a living creating records for an
online
> >database. I may not have the extensive costuming background most of you
> >have, but a database, I can understand. Well, maybe not to do a lot of
> >extensive programming in a DBMS, but I can understand structure, and I
can
> >do abstracting, indexing, and bibliographic citation. Additionally, my
> >ultimate employer (the owner of the big database company for which I work
> >in a small, endangered division) is always interested in acquiring and/or
> >developing new databases, so if it's something sufficiently useful,
perhaps
> >I can pitch it up the chain of command. (Or if we end up being shafted
and
> >our file migrated elsewhere, it might be something I could/should start
in
> >on to "make ends meet"...)
> >
> >The biggest question I'd have would be, how many people would be willing
to
> >pay how much for this sort of thing? Subscriptions to engineering
databases
> >run into the thousands of dollars per year; I wouldn't expect a clothing
> >and costuming database to run much cheaper than that, if done as a
> >profit-making venture.
> >
> >If this type of expense sounds reasonable to that proportion of you who
> >would be interested in this sort of product, where would I (1) begin
market
> >research, (2) find source materials, and (3) get permissions to include
> >those source materials in such a database?
> >
> >
> >--Still an egg, but with ideas of what a hen might be able to do...
> >
> >Brenda
> >webwarren@earthlink.net
> >
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >h-costume mailing list
> >h-costume@mail.indra.com
> >http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
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	<015901c2ff28$29686f40$ed4a7a43@angelap3a8d978>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: costume data bases
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We used Lexis/Nexis in college for looking up marketing profiles and annual
reports for businesses.  What a wonderful database.

Penny Ladnier
Owner, The Costume Gallery & Costume Classroom
http://www.costumegallery.com
http://www.costumeclassroom.com
http://www.onlinecostumeball.com


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From: "Penny Ladnier" <penny@costumegallery.com>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
References: 
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Cher Concert
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 02:59:59 -0400
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Hey Dainne,

All you need to do is go to Old Navy and Target to get the hippee
merchandise.  They have plenty and it is cheap.

Penny Ladnier
Owner, The Costume Gallery & Costume Classroom
http://www.costumegallery.com
http://www.costumeclassroom.com
http://www.onlinecostumeball.com


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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re:Cher concert
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Oh Dawn!!!!!!  To see Bob Mackie embroidery and beads in person... I would
die to see it.

Penny Ladnier
Owner, The Costume Gallery & Costume Classroom
http://www.costumegallery.com
http://www.costumeclassroom.com
http://www.onlinecostumeball.com


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From: "Stevie Gamble" <stevie.gamble@btinternet.com>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
References: <20030410044453.OTHK19613.out001.verizon.net@out001>
Subject: Re: Re: [h-cost] Henslowe's Diary was - more on Cloth of Gold
	andSilver
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 11:28:51 +0100
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Ron wrote:

> > Subject: Re: [h-cost] Henslowe's Diary was - more on Cloth of Gold
and  Silver
>
> >
> > c. It's not a facsimile of  the document; people might like to
bear in
> > mind that reading a facsimile of that kind is extremely difficult
> > without very extensive experience of the language and usages of
the
> > period. And even if you have all of that it's still very
difficult;
> > Henslowe was a great man, wholly untramelled by any desire to make
his
> > jottings comprehensible to anyone other than himself. And I
sometimes
> > wonder whether even that worried him...
> >
>    My understanding is that a much the "diary" isn't even the work
of Henslowe, b ut rather his son in law Edward Alleyn.  Edward was
actually managing the Rose by the 1590s.  It is also because of him
that they survive as he donated them to the College of God's Gift
which he apparently founded.

I'm not aware of any evidence that Alleyn wrote any of the document
usually referred to as Henslowe's Diary; there are entries made by
Henslowe's brother, John, relating to Ashdown Forest, but the
remainder appears to be by Philip. Apart, of course, from those
entries made by the 19th century forger, J P Collier. Nor am I aware
of any evidence that Alleyn was managing the Rose in the 1590's. I
should be most interested to know the basis of this suggestion.
However, there are large numbers of other documents in the Dulwich
College Library and some of those do have entries made by Edward
Alleyn. This may perhaps have led to some confusion.

best wishes
Stevie

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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Cher Concert
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heh--I'll have to check out Old Navy again. I know about the stuff at
Target, as I work there!

There is an Old Navy literally around the corner from me that just opened
last fall. But hte one time I went in there, it was crowded, they haven't
bothered to do anything to some very old and crappy flooring, and there was
really obnoxious music playing *way* too loudly. Not fun.

Dianne
----- Original Message -----
From: "Penny Ladnier" <penny@costumegallery.com>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2003 2:59 AM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Cher Concert


> Hey Dainne,
>
> All you need to do is go to Old Navy and Target to get the hippee
> merchandise.  They have plenty and it is cheap.
>
> Penny Ladnier
> Owner, The Costume Gallery & Costume Classroom
> http://www.costumegallery.com
> http://www.costumeclassroom.com
> http://www.onlinecostumeball.com
>
>
> [This E-mail was scanned for viruses by Plugit.com Virus Scanners
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From: Robin Netherton <robin@shell.nightowl.net>
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Cher Concert
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On Thu, 10 Apr 2003, Dianne and Greg Stucki wrote:

> There is an Old Navy literally around the corner from me that just
> opened last fall. But hte one time I went in there, it was crowded,
> they haven't bothered to do anything to some very old and crappy
> flooring, and there was really obnoxious music playing *way* too
> loudly. Not fun.

Not to mention they carry very small quantities of the larger women's
sizes, which sell out *fast*. You'd think that would send a message that
they should stock more of the larger sizes, but no, they favor the smaller
sizes because that's the clientele they want to appear to attract. Anyone
sense a disconnect here? (This is a complaint I've shared with quite a few
Old Navy employees who, like me, have trouble finding anything to fit them
in the store ... not because the store doesn't carry the sizes at all, but
because the few items disappear so quickly. I shop there for my husband
and sons, and an occasional t-shirt for me.)

--Robin

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I'm going to be in Atlanta next week and will have some time to kill.  Are there any absolute "must see"'s for fabric and costuming shops for someone interest in medieval and renaissance Italian clothes?

Colleen

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From: Ron Carnegie <r.carnegie@verizon.net>
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Subject: Re: Re: [h-cost] Henslowe's Diary was - more on Cloth of Gold
	andSilver
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> 
> From: "Stevie Gamble" <stevie.gamble@btinternet.com>
> Date: 2003/04/10 Thu AM 06:28:51 EDT
> To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
> Subject: Re: Re: [h-cost] Henslowe's Diary was - more on Cloth of Gold
> 	andSilver
> > >
> >    My understanding is that a much the "diary" isn't even the work
> of Henslowe, b ut rather his son in law Edward Alleyn.  Edward was
> actually managing the Rose by the 1590s.  It is also because of him
> that they survive as he donated them to the College of God's Gift
> which he apparently founded.
> 
> I'm not aware of any evidence that Alleyn wrote any of the document
> usually referred to as Henslowe's Diary; there are entries made by
> Henslowe's brother, John, relating to Ashdown Forest, but the
> remainder appears to be by Philip. Apart, of course, from those
> entries made by the 19th century forger, J P Collier. Nor am I aware
> of any evidence that Alleyn was managing the Rose in the 1590's. I
> should be most interested to know the basis of this suggestion.
> However, there are large numbers of other documents in the Dulwich
> College Library and some of those do have entries made by Edward
> Alleyn. This may perhaps have led to some confusion.
> 
> best wishes
> Stevie

   This is exactly why I prefaced this as "my understanding" rather than fact.  By coincidence I had been reading a surprisingly detailed little book on Shakepeare and period theatre last week, and it mentioned this.( I am doing some research into the busness of theatres in the period). It also has a photo of one of the pages of the Henslowe Papers.  It is however at best a secondary source (obviously).  Now while I mention that it is detailed, it is not written in a very scholarly manner so I am not sure where some of its information comes from.  When I get home I will try to remember to post the name and author of this little book and see if I can find any references quoted (though it doesn't seem to do a lot of that).  Maybe you are familiar with the book and have some idea of its general accuracy.  Book does have a lot of photos, sometimes of original items sometimes of recreated scenes and in the latter the costumes are often a little weak.

Cheers,
Ron

R.Carnegie@verizon.net
"Argue for your limitations, and they are yours."
             R. Bach

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Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 13:59:57 -0400
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This might be a possibility.  Phoenix Textiles, aka Fabric.com, is located
outside Atlanta in Marietta. They do not have a retail store, only selling
over the Internet. However, they are very nice people, and when they were
still very new, allowed me to wander through their warehouse -- touching and
feeling the fabrics!  The address is in their FAQs.  It would be worth
writing and asking them for permission to visit.  They have made an effort
to include more and more natural fibers since they first opened, instead of
being dominated by quilting fabrics.

I live in Lawrenceville outside Atlanta, with the usual Hancocks/JoAnn's
choices.  There may be some good fabric stores in downtown Atlanta, but I
don't get in town during business hours often.

Ann Neff


-----Original Message-----
From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com] On
Behalf Of Colleen McDonald
Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2003 12:45 PM
To: h-costume@indra.com
Subject: [h-cost] Shopping in Atlanta


I'm going to be in Atlanta next week and will have some time to kill.  Are
there any absolute "must see"'s for fabric and costuming shops for someone
interest in medieval and renaissance Italian clothes?

Colleen

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From: Jacobson Dawn <dme_maud@pacbell.net>
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Subject: [h-cost] Re: L.A. "vintage" clothing stores
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For the person (Sylvia?) that asked for information
regarding used clothing stores in the L.A. area:

The oldest, and probably still the best is Aardvark's
Odd Ark, 7579 Melrose, West Hollywood. Huge store, and
they used to have good prices (I haven't shopped there
in 10 years, so I don't know current prices).

Dawn
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Subject: [h-cost] Re: Cher concert
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> There is an Old Navy literally around the corner
from me that just
> opened last fall. But hte one time I went in there,
it was crowded,
> they haven't bothered to do anything to some very
old and crappy
> flooring, and there was really obnoxious music
playing *way* too
> loudly. Not fun.

Not to mention they carry very small quantities of the
larger women's
sizes, which sell out *fast*. You'd think that would
send a message 
that
they should stock more of the larger sizes, but no,
they favor the 
smaller
sizes because that's the clientele they want to appear
to attract. 
Anyone
sense a disconnect here? (This is a complaint I've
shared with quite a 
few
Old Navy employees who, like me, have trouble finding
anything to fit 
them
in the store ... not because the store doesn't carry
the sizes at all, 
but
because the few items disappear so quickly. I shop
there for my husband
and sons, and an occasional t-shirt for me.)

Oddly, the selection for "real-sized" people is much
better at the Old Navy Outlets (there's one in San
Francisco and one in the Citadel Outlets near L.A.).
The prices are also much better.

Yes, I'm a satisfied customer (almost all my
school/work clothes come from Old Navy).

Dawn

=====
Dawn Jacobson
Vallejo, CA, USA

The world has truly gone crazy. The best rapper is a white guy, the best golfer is a black guy, the Swiss hold the Americas Cup, the French are accusing the United States of arrogance, and the Germans don't want to go to war.
                                                       --Chris Rock
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Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 11:34:32 -0700 (PDT)
From: Tasha McGann <demontsegur@yahoo.com>
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Subject: [h-cost] Re: weird pants construction at Old Navy; was Cher Concert
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Robin wrote: 
Not to mention they carry very small quantities of the
larger women's
sizes, which sell out *fast*. You'd think that would
send a message that
they should stock more of the larger sizes, but no,
they favor the smaller
sizes because that's the clientele they want to appear
to attract. Anyone
sense a disconnect here? (This is a complaint I've
shared with quite a few
Old Navy employees who, like me, have trouble finding
anything to fit them
in the store ... not because the store doesn't carry
the sizes at all, but
because the few items disappear so quickly. I shop
there for my husband
and sons, and an occasional t-shirt for me.)
______________________

Wow, you are inside of my head! I have this complaint
EVERYwhere I shop -- "what's so hard about ordering
double the number of size 12-18?" It's basic -- supply
and demand. There are a lot of average, size 14 kind
of women out there, grumpy because their size is the
first to sell out, while the size 2s and 6s sit there
in piles, mouldering. It doesn't have to be a
statement about politics, body image, or anything else
so complicated and provocative -- simply stock what
will, apparently, sell the most!

On a side note -- I actually CAN find my size at Old
Navy (at least the one near me). What kills me though
is that Old Navy cuts their women's pants as though
every woman has a flat backside, no waist, and an
untilted pelvis (i.e. no S-curve in their back). Come
to think of it, they feel like men's pants with a
curve for accomodating feminine thighs thrown in as an
afterthought. 

I routinely buy otherwise attractive pants in a larger
size and put two hefty darts in the back so they don't
fall off of my hips. I don't think I'm abnormally
shaped -- it's just the peculiar choice of the Old
Navy designers, I guess. Donna Karan, btw, cuts womens
pants very nicely, I've found. 

-Tasha

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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Thu Apr 10 16:00:50 2003
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Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 14:57:13 -0400
From: Gail & Scott Finke <gailscott@eos.net>
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Subject: [h-cost] Re: titanic
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on 4/8/03 9:40 AM, Paul wrote:

> Having been amateur Titanic historian for some 20 odd years now I looked
> forward to seeing the movie when it came out and have seen it several times
> since.
> 
> I've seen nearly all the Titanic movies including A Night to Remember and I
> was aware that David Warner (the valet) had appeared on a previous Titanic
> movie called SOS Titanic.
> 
> While watching diCaprio drown was almost worth repeat viewings it was the
> attention to detail that Cameron put into the film that really impressed me.
> Not merely content with redressing the Queen Mary or dragging some old
> sailor suits out of the wardrobe the detail was found in just about
> everything.
> 
> As far as accuracy goes with the exception of the fictitious family and
> their 3rd class interloper pretty much everything else was spot on. Things
> like the men standing on the capsized lifeboat for 4 hours was filmed but
> never made it to the final cut.
> 
> It's not a great historical documentary but then it was never intended to be
> one either.

But that's my point exactly. It would have been a much better movie if it
had been about the Titanic sinking, which was very well done and very sad.
But as far as the story goes -- well, I had no patience for stupid Rose, the
spoiled brat. Like she would have been happier with all the poor immigrants
heading to work 12-hour days in American factories! And the stupid fiance
chasing Leonardo all over the ship! And Rose having the diamond the whole
time! At the end of the movie, when she didn't give it to the nice captain
who brought her all the way out to sea, I wanted to push her over the side
of the ship after it. I'm all for inter-class romance and doomed love, but
those two were so annoying!!! I just wanted to see the SHIP and the
costumes. It would have been shorter and much more entertaining that way.

Gail Finke








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From: "Stevie Gamble" <stevie.gamble@btinternet.com>
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References: <20030410174718.LXNF15325.out006.verizon.net@localhost>
Subject: Re: Re: [h-cost] Henslowe's Diary was - more on Cloth of
	GoldandSilver
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Ron wrote:


> > Subject: Re: Re: [h-cost] Henslowe's Diary was - more on Cloth of
Gold
> > andSilver
> > > >
> > >    My understanding is that a much the "diary" isn't even the
work
> > of Henslowe, b ut rather his son in law Edward Alleyn.  Edward was
> > actually managing the Rose by the 1590s.  It is also because of
him
> > that they survive as he donated them to the College of God's Gift
> > which he apparently founded.
> >
> > I'm not aware of any evidence that Alleyn wrote any of the
document
> > usually referred to as Henslowe's Diary; there are entries made by
> > Henslowe's brother, John, relating to Ashdown Forest, but the
> > remainder appears to be by Philip. Apart, of course, from those
> > entries made by the 19th century forger, J P Collier. Nor am I
aware
> > of any evidence that Alleyn was managing the Rose in the 1590's. I
> > should be most interested to know the basis of this suggestion.
> > However, there are large numbers of other documents in the Dulwich
> > College Library and some of those do have entries made by Edward
> > Alleyn. This may perhaps have led to some confusion.
> >
> > best wishes
> > Stevie
>

>    This is exactly why I prefaced this as "my understanding" rather
than fact.  By coincidence I had been reading a surprisingly detailed
little book on Shakepeare and period theatre last week, and it
mentioned this.( I am doing some research into the busness of theatres
in the period). It also has a photo of one of the pages of the
Henslowe Papers.  It is however at best a secondary source
(obviously).  Now while I mention that it is detailed, it is not
written in a very scholarly manner so I am not sure where some of its
information comes from.  When I get home I will try to remember to
post the name and author of this little book and see if I can find any
references quoted (though it doesn't seem to do a lot of that).  Maybe
you are familiar with the book and have some idea of its general
accuracy.  Book does have a lot of photos, sometimes of original items
sometimes of recreated scenes and in the latter the costumes are often
a little weak.

Snap! My own research is on the socio-economics of the late 16th and
early 17th century London public theatres, and in the happy event of
my wrists ever deciding to resume normal service I may some day
actually complete my 'writing up'. There are a lot of books around,
and unfortunately few of them are accurate, and even fewer cite
references, which makes sorting the wheat from the chaff even more
difficult. Oh the joys of research...

best wishes
Stevie

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From: mabse@attbi.com
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: Re: [h-cost] Henslowe's Diary was - more on Cloth of
	GoldandSilver
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 20:02:43 +0000
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Status: RO

there is pretty good voice recognition software now.  Maybe you can have your 
wrists and your book... maryann
> Ron wrote:
> 
> 
> > > Subject: Re: Re: [h-cost] Henslowe's Diary was - more on Cloth of
> Gold
> > > andSilver
> > > > >
> > > >    My understanding is that a much the "diary" isn't even the
> work
> > > of Henslowe, b ut rather his son in law Edward Alleyn.  Edward was
> > > actually managing the Rose by the 1590s.  It is also because of
> him
> > > that they survive as he donated them to the College of God's Gift
> > > which he apparently founded.
> > >
> > > I'm not aware of any evidence that Alleyn wrote any of the
> document
> > > usually referred to as Henslowe's Diary; there are entries made by
> > > Henslowe's brother, John, relating to Ashdown Forest, but the
> > > remainder appears to be by Philip. Apart, of course, from those
> > > entries made by the 19th century forger, J P Collier. Nor am I
> aware
> > > of any evidence that Alleyn was managing the Rose in the 1590's. I
> > > should be most interested to know the basis of this suggestion.
> > > However, there are large numbers of other documents in the Dulwich
> > > College Library and some of those do have entries made by Edward
> > > Alleyn. This may perhaps have led to some confusion.
> > >
> > > best wishes
> > > Stevie
> >
> 
> >    This is exactly why I prefaced this as "my understanding" rather
> than fact.  By coincidence I had been reading a surprisingly detailed
> little book on Shakepeare and period theatre last week, and it
> mentioned this.( I am doing some research into the busness of theatres
> in the period). It also has a photo of one of the pages of the
> Henslowe Papers.  It is however at best a secondary source
> (obviously).  Now while I mention that it is detailed, it is not
> written in a very scholarly manner so I am not sure where some of its
> information comes from.  When I get home I will try to remember to
> post the name and author of this little book and see if I can find any
> references quoted (though it doesn't seem to do a lot of that).  Maybe
> you are familiar with the book and have some idea of its general
> accuracy.  Book does have a lot of photos, sometimes of original items
> sometimes of recreated scenes and in the latter the costumes are often
> a little weak.
> 
> Snap! My own research is on the socio-economics of the late 16th and
> early 17th century London public theatres, and in the happy event of
> my wrists ever deciding to resume normal service I may some day
> actually complete my 'writing up'. There are a lot of books around,
> and unfortunately few of them are accurate, and even fewer cite
> references, which makes sorting the wheat from the chaff even more
> difficult. Oh the joys of research...
> 
> best wishes
> Stevie
> 
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: titanic
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In a message dated 4/10/2003 3:03:52 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
gailscott@eos.net writes:


> And Rose having the diamond the whole
> time! At the end of the movie, when she didn't give it to the nice captain
> who brought her all the way out to sea, 

LOL!......or, like, maybe her daughter could have used it to set herself up 
for life. Or she coulda given it to a charity.....or maybe set up a fund for 
victims of the Titanic....but she friggin' throws it in the ocean. We'll she 
hadn't made a sane decision since 1912......why expect one now?
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Subject: [h-cost] pre-made bustles
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AlterYears is out of stock on their pre-made bustles,
and I need a hoop wire bustle for an 1880's dress.
Before I give in and make one (I really didn't want to do that..)
does anyone else make hoop bustles?

.heather.meadows.


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Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 18:50:16 -0500
From: "H. Law" <lynnx@grics.net>
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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Henslowe's Diary was - more on Cloth of	GoldandSilver
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Status: RO

Is this something you can OCR scan? Most scanners come with the software 
included, even the cheepo ones.  You still have to go in and correct 
stuff the scanner couldn't read, but you can use the find command to 
locate the couldn't-read-it indicators (usually @'s)

Heather Law (not Rose)

mabse@attbi.com wrote:

>there is pretty good voice recognition software now.  Maybe you can have your 
>wrists and your book... maryann
>  
>
>>Ron wrote:
>>
>>
>>    
>>
>>>>Subject: Re: Re: [h-cost] Henslowe's Diary was - more on Cloth of
>>>>        
>>>>
>>Gold
>>    
>>
>>>>andSilver
>>>>        
>>>>
>>>>>   My understanding is that a much the "diary" isn't even the
>>>>>          
>>>>>
>>work
>>    
>>
>>>>of Henslowe, b ut rather his son in law Edward Alleyn.  Edward was
>>>>actually managing the Rose by the 1590s.  It is also because of
>>>>        
>>>>
>>him
>>    
>>
>>>>that they survive as he donated them to the College of God's Gift
>>>>which he apparently founded.
>>>>
>>>>I'm not aware of any evidence that Alleyn wrote any of the
>>>>        
>>>>
>>document
>>    
>>
>>>>usually referred to as Henslowe's Diary; there are entries made by
>>>>Henslowe's brother, John, relating to Ashdown Forest, but the
>>>>remainder appears to be by Philip. Apart, of course, from those
>>>>entries made by the 19th century forger, J P Collier. Nor am I
>>>>        
>>>>
>>aware
>>    
>>
>>>>of any evidence that Alleyn was managing the Rose in the 1590's. I
>>>>should be most interested to know the basis of this suggestion.
>>>>However, there are large numbers of other documents in the Dulwich
>>>>College Library and some of those do have entries made by Edward
>>>>Alleyn. This may perhaps have led to some confusion.
>>>>
>>>>best wishes
>>>>Stevie
>>>>        
>>>>
>>>   This is exactly why I prefaced this as "my understanding" rather
>>>      
>>>
>>than fact.  By coincidence I had been reading a surprisingly detailed
>>little book on Shakepeare and period theatre last week, and it
>>mentioned this.( I am doing some research into the busness of theatres
>>in the period). It also has a photo of one of the pages of the
>>Henslowe Papers.  It is however at best a secondary source
>>(obviously).  Now while I mention that it is detailed, it is not
>>written in a very scholarly manner so I am not sure where some of its
>>information comes from.  When I get home I will try to remember to
>>post the name and author of this little book and see if I can find any
>>references quoted (though it doesn't seem to do a lot of that).  Maybe
>>you are familiar with the book and have some idea of its general
>>accuracy.  Book does have a lot of photos, sometimes of original items
>>sometimes of recreated scenes and in the latter the costumes are often
>>a little weak.
>>
>>Snap! My own research is on the socio-economics of the late 16th and
>>early 17th century London public theatres, and in the happy event of
>>my wrists ever deciding to resume normal service I may some day
>>actually complete my 'writing up'. There are a lot of books around,
>>and unfortunately few of them are accurate, and even fewer cite
>>references, which makes sorting the wheat from the chaff even more
>>difficult. Oh the joys of research...
>>
>>best wishes
>>Stevie
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>h-costume mailing list
>>h-costume@mail.indra.com
>>http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
>>    
>>
>_______________________________________________
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>
>  
>

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From: "Nancy Kiel" <nancy_kiel@hotmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: titanic
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 19:40:13 -0400
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That's why my plan is to rent the video someday so I can look at the 
costumes and fast forward through the "story".



Nancy Kiel
nancy_kiel@hotmail.com
Never tease a weasel!
This is very good advice.
For the weasel will not like it
And teasing isn't nice.



>But that's my point exactly. It would have been a much better movie if it
>had been about the Titanic sinking, which was very well done and very sad.
>But as far as the story goes -- well, I had no patience for stupid Rose, 
>the
>spoiled brat. Like she would have been happier with all the poor immigrants
>heading to work 12-hour days in American factories! And the stupid fiance
>chasing Leonardo all over the ship! And Rose having the diamond the whole
>time! At the end of the movie, when she didn't give it to the nice captain
>who brought her all the way out to sea, I wanted to push her over the side
>of the ship after it. I'm all for inter-class romance and doomed love, but
>those two were so annoying!!! I just wanted to see the SHIP and the
>costumes. It would have been shorter and much more entertaining that way.
>
>Gail Finke
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: weird pants construction at Old Navy;
	was Cher Concert
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I find that with pretty much every pair of pants I've ever bought; I need to
put darts in at the center and/or side back or I get this big gaping thing
going on.

-- Maral

----- Original Message -----
From: "Tasha McGann" <demontsegur@yahoo.com>
To: <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2003 2:34 PM
Subject: [h-cost] Re: weird pants construction at Old Navy; was Cher Concert

> On a side note -- I actually CAN find my size at Old
> Navy (at least the one near me). What kills me though
> is that Old Navy cuts their women's pants as though
> every woman has a flat backside, no waist, and an
> untilted pelvis (i.e. no S-curve in their back). Come
> to think of it, they feel like men's pants with a
> curve for accomodating feminine thighs thrown in as an
> afterthought.
>
> I routinely buy otherwise attractive pants in a larger
> size and put two hefty darts in the back so they don't
> fall off of my hips. I don't think I'm abnormally
> shaped -- it's just the peculiar choice of the Old
> Navy designers, I guess. Donna Karan, btw, cuts womens
> pants very nicely, I've found.
>
> -Tasha
>
> __________________________________________________
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> Yahoo! Tax Center - File online, calculators, forms, and more
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Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 18:05:34 -0600
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: titanic
From: sylvia <sylvia@ntw.net>
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
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on 4/10/03 12:57 PM, Gail & Scott Finke at gailscott@eos.net wrote:

>
> 
> But that's my point exactly. It would have been a much better movie if it
> had been about the Titanic sinking, which was very well done and very sad.
> But as far as the story goes -- well, I had no patience for stupid Rose, the
> spoiled brat. Like she would have been happier with all the poor immigrants
> heading to work 12-hour days in American factories! And the stupid fiance
> chasing Leonardo all over the ship! And Rose having the diamond the whole
> time! At the end of the movie, when she didn't give it to the nice captain
> who brought her all the way out to sea, I wanted to push her over the side
> of the ship after it. I'm all for inter-class romance and doomed love, but
> those two were so annoying!!! I just wanted to see the SHIP and the
> costumes. It would have been shorter and much more entertaining that way.
> 
I agree.  I think the attempt to provide historical accuracy to sets,
costumes and props at the expense of a good story is reprehensible and an
easy way out.
I know you can't blame it on the designers who are just doing their job, but
I feel like the director and producers are just hoping that with all that
detail no one will notice how bad the script is.

Sylvia Rognstad, another mother for peace
-- 
Divinity Designs and Emeralds
http://www.d-e-designs.com



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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Thu Apr 10 21:15:10 2003
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Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 18:15:18 -0600
From: Elizabeth Lear <eliz@indra.com>
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: titanic
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I think we've established that some people here hate the movie, some
love it, and some haven't seen it.  Can we please move on?

Thanks,
						...eliz


-- 
You need only two tools. WD-40 and duct tape. If it doesn't move and it
should, use WD-40. If it moves and shouldn't, use the tape.
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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Thu Apr 10 21:25:45 2003
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Subject: [h-cost] Fabric Stores in the Baltimore Area???
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OK since y'all made my life sooo much easier in the pattern material 
department, I have another  request. Our local Joanns has cut the 
fabric dept drastically! They have no swim suit material, and they 
are not carrying any neon brite, solid colored cloth of any type this 
year :-(
Naturally this year I need a lot of neon colored cloth... (No, it's 
not for the 'Celts on Acid' show... <VBEG>)
Soooo are there any fabric warehouse/mill end type stores located 
near Baltimore, or York/Harrisburg PA??? Or should I just give up and 
order off the Net?
Sigh, ya try and shop locally, but....
Ta
Carol
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From: Catherine Olanich Raymond <cathy@thyrsus.com>
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: weird pants construction at Old Navy;
	was Cher Concert
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 20:48:52 -0400
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On Thursday 10 April 2003 07:48 pm, Herself-the-Elf wrote:
> I find that with pretty much every pair of pants I've ever bought; I need
> to put darts in at the center and/or side back or I get this big gaping
> thing going on.
>
> -- Maral
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Tasha McGann" <demontsegur@yahoo.com>
> To: <h-costume@indra.com>
> Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2003 2:34 PM
> Subject: [h-cost] Re: weird pants construction at Old Navy; was Cher
> Concert
>
> > On a side note -- I actually CAN find my size at Old
> > Navy (at least the one near me). What kills me though
> > is that Old Navy cuts their women's pants as though
> > every woman has a flat backside, no waist, and an
> > untilted pelvis (i.e. no S-curve in their back). Come
> > to think of it, they feel like men's pants with a
> > curve for accomodating feminine thighs thrown in as an
> > afterthought.

I know exactly what you and Tasha mean.  Of course, most women, even women who 
are not at all overweight, are simply not built like men.

Back in the late 1970s and early 1980s, it was as though no one making women's 
clothes for the US could cut pants for women that weren't either hopelessly 
large through the waist or fit like a second skin.  I refused to buy pants 
suits until the early 1990s, when it was finally possible to get a 
comfortable, professional-looking fit.

-- 
Cathy Raymond <cathy@thyrsus.com>

"Intelligence is the ultimate aphrodisiac."  Timothy Leary

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Ok. I admit, I LOVED the Cher concert.  So much so, I ordered the CD they 
advertised after the show (NOT the songs in the show, just some.)

Sonny and Cher was the first concert I ever attended.  I was 13.  Back then, 
Sonny was still wearing the famous fur vests.  It was SO long ago, it was 
before Cher caused a sensation, made the news and magazines by wearing, yes, 
a DRESS in public.

Keeping this on topic: I wore a black poor-boy T-shirt and a way cool light 
blue A-line skirt, with black grosgrain ribbon down the side seams.  I was 
HOT!   Later it got better when I embroidered solid red and yellow flames up 
the legs of my Levis.

Wow, does it get any better than that?

Darla  (missing the good old days, and my paisely dress and white fishnet 
stockings)
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From: "Karen Root" <smonster@optusnet.com.au>
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> Wow, you are inside of my head! I have this complaint
> EVERYwhere I shop -- "what's so hard about ordering
> double the number of size 12-18?" It's basic -- supply

I used to work at a clothing wholesalers and they sold their women's clothes
in 'packs' which contained (Australian sizes) something like this 8 x 1, 10
x 2, 12 x 3 14 x 2, 16 x 1.  So maybe it is the manufacturers'/importers'
fault and not the particular clothing store because they can only order what
is available to them.  On the other hand, men's clothes tended to be sold on
an 'each' basis where you just ordered exactly what you wanted.

Karen
-----
www.members.optusnet.com.au/smonster/

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From: Ron Carnegie <r.carnegie@verizon.net>
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: Re: [h-cost] Henslowe's Diary was - more on Cloth of
	GoldandSilver
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> 
> From: "Stevie Gamble" <stevie.gamble@btinternet.com>
> Date: 2003/04/10 Thu PM 03:09:20 EDT
> To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
> Subject: Re: Re: [h-cost] Henslowe's Diary was - more on Cloth of
> 	GoldandSilver
> 



> > > I'm not aware of any evidence that Alleyn wrote any of the
> document
> > > usually referred to as Henslowe's Diary; there are entries made by
> > > Henslowe's brother, John, relating to Ashdown Forest, but the
> > > remainder appears to be by Philip. Apart, of course, from those
> > > entries made by the 19th century forger, J P Collier. Nor am I
> aware
> > > of any evidence that Alleyn was managing the Rose in the 1590's. I
> > > should be most interested to know the basis of this suggestion.
> > > However, there are large numbers of other documents in the Dulwich


    Okay, now that I am home.  The Book is WILLIAMS SHAKESPEARE THER EXTRAORDINARY LIF OF THE MOST SUCCESSFUL WRITER OF ALL TIME by Andrew Gurr.  It is a curious book filled with quite a bit of information regarding the life and times of Shakespeare, even though it is in a "picture" book format.  I can not speak to the accuracy of the theatre specific information (which I was hoping to work on) but it's general Elizabethan information is pretty good.  I also earlier called the costuming weak, but I want to amend that.  Some of it is rather good and most of it appears well made.  I suspect it is some sort of theatrical costuming however, as much of it fits the wearers poorly.  Also, in at least one case a man is wearing narrow fall breeches more common to the later half of the 18th century than to the 16th!

    There are no references in the book, only thanks to the various libraries and museums that helped the project (including Dulwich College).  I suspect that these mentions are more for the use of images than anything else.

    Gurr seems like a  fellow in the know according to his CV ( http://www.rdg.ac.uk/globe/siteinfo/Andy.htm )but the work itself does not allow for any understanding on how he reached his conclusions.  Are you familiar with his work at all?

Cheers,
Ron

R.Carnegie@verizon.net
"Argue for your limitations, and they are yours."
             R. Bach

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From: "Lisa Sinervo" <lisa-list@threadneedlest.com>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
References: <20030411013137.VXQT19613.out001.verizon.net@out001>
Subject: who wrote the Henslowe papers? was - Re: Re: [h-cost] Henslowe's
	Diary was - more on Cloth ofGoldandSilver
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 18:58:21 -0700
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If you come up with any folio numbers as to who wrote what in the next two
weeks, I can scan the related pages and pass them on, for handwriting
comparision.  I've got a library copy of the facsimile me at the moment.

Lisa


----- Original Message -----
From: "Ron Carnegie" <r.carnegie@verizon.net>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2003 6:31 PM
Subject: Re: Re: [h-cost] Henslowe's Diary was - more on Cloth
ofGoldandSilver


>
> >
> > From: "Stevie Gamble" <stevie.gamble@btinternet.com>
> > Date: 2003/04/10 Thu PM 03:09:20 EDT
> > To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
> > Subject: Re: Re: [h-cost] Henslowe's Diary was - more on Cloth of
> > GoldandSilver
> >
>
>
>
> > > > I'm not aware of any evidence that Alleyn wrote any of the
> > document
> > > > usually referred to as Henslowe's Diary; there are entries made by
> > > > Henslowe's brother, John, relating to Ashdown Forest, but the
> > > > remainder appears to be by Philip. Apart, of course, from those
> > > > entries made by the 19th century forger, J P Collier. Nor am I
> > aware
> > > > of any evidence that Alleyn was managing the Rose in the 1590's. I
> > > > should be most interested to know the basis of this suggestion.
> > > > However, there are large numbers of other documents in the Dulwich
>
>
>     Okay, now that I am home.  The Book is WILLIAMS SHAKESPEARE THER
EXTRAORDINARY LIF OF THE MOST SUCCESSFUL WRITER OF ALL TIME by Andrew Gurr.
It is a curious book filled with quite a bit of information regarding the
life and times of Shakespeare, even though it is in a "picture" book format.
I can not speak to the accuracy of the theatre specific information (which I
was hoping to work on) but it's general Elizabethan information is pretty
good.  I also earlier called the costuming weak, but I want to amend that.
Some of it is rather good and most of it appears well made.  I suspect it is
some sort of theatrical costuming however, as much of it fits the wearers
poorly.  Also, in at least one case a man is wearing narrow fall breeches
more common to the later half of the 18th century than to the 16th!
>
>     There are no references in the book, only thanks to the various
libraries and museums that helped the project (including Dulwich College).
I suspect that these mentions are more for the use of images than anything
else.
>
>     Gurr seems like a  fellow in the know according to his CV (
http://www.rdg.ac.uk/globe/siteinfo/Andy.htm )but the work itself does not
allow for any understanding on how he reached his conclusions.  Are you
familiar with his work at all?
>
> Cheers,
> Ron
>
> R.Carnegie@verizon.net
> "Argue for your limitations, and they are yours."
>              R. Bach
>
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
>


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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Thu Apr 10 23:19:33 2003
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Fabric Stores in the Baltimore Area???
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Try Blank's, off Security Blvd. (near the Beltway and I70) and Hancock's in 
Randallstown--they are still carrying swimsuit fabric, I think, but am not 
sure of the neon brights.  Is Thurmont close enough?  I'm going to check out 
Discount Fabrics there on Sunday.  Have no idea if they have what you are 
looking for, but I've heard their assortment is pretty amazing.
Ann Wass
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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Fri Apr 11 00:17:41 2003
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Subject: [h-cost] My new site:)
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Hey all just had confirmation that my new website is live:)

So here we go:
http://www.glittersweet.com


I have just my costumes and the frazzled frau (german renaissance women's
clothing links) up at the moment, will be working on some more costume
content soon:)

for some strange reason I cannot access it, but I've had two people tell me
they can so this is just really odd.

michaela
http://www.glittersweet.com



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From: "Carolann Schmitt" <cschmitt@genteelarts.com>
To: "'Historical Costume'" <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: RE: [h-cost] Fabric Stores in the Baltimore Area???
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Is Thurmont close enough?  I'm going to check out
Discount Fabrics there on Sunday.  Have no idea if they have what you are
looking for, but I've heard their assortment is pretty amazing.


Discount Fabrics in Thurmont, MD specializes in fabrics and trimmings for
home decor: drapery, upholstery, leather, etc.  The selection is amazing,
the prices can be very good or not so great, and (depending on what your
making) may or may not be suitable for garments.  I don't know if they have
anything in neon brights, but I'm 99% certain you won't find swimwear.  But
if you're anywhere close it's worth a stop.

Carolann Schmitt
cschmitt@genteelarts.com
www.genteelarts.com
Citizens of the 1860s Conference March 4-7, 2004


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	<002701c2ffd8$ee2a8ce0$5ac3adcb@michaela>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] My new site:)
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 23:31:06 -0400
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Michaela,

I can get the Splash page but the image map or rollover is not working.

Penny Ladnier
Owner, The Costume Gallery & Costume Classroom
http://www.costumegallery.com
http://www.costumeclassroom.com
http://www.onlinecostumeball.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "michaela" <thebruce@ihug.co.nz>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2003 11:17 PM
Subject: [h-cost] My new site:)


> Hey all just had confirmation that my new website is live:)
>
> So here we go:
> http://www.glittersweet.com
>
>
> I have just my costumes and the frazzled frau (german renaissance women's
> clothing links) up at the moment, will be working on some more costume
> content soon:)
>
> for some strange reason I cannot access it, but I've had two people tell
me
> they can so this is just really odd.
>
> michaela
> http://www.glittersweet.com
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
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From: "michaela" <thebruce@ihug.co.nz>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] My new site:)
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 15:40:46 +1200
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> I can get the Splash page but the image map or rollover is not working.

I don't have an image map, I have linked transparent gifs. Only two are
live: the costumes and german ren ones. I can get to that page using the
hosted address, and it works fine for me... hmmm... I might try something
that really shouldn't have any effect but who knows...

It's just really odd the different responses. I know I've had someone access
all my costume pages, and another just said it was working. But I can't even
acces it at all.

I haven't had a reply to my last email to support either.

michaela


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From: "Janet Davis" <castle@erie.net>
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	<002701c2ffd8$ee2a8ce0$5ac3adcb@michaela>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] My new site:)
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What a great selection of German renaissance pictures!  It earned a place on
my "Favorites" list!

Janet

Janet Davis
Castle Furnishings
http://www.medievalbookstore.com

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Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 21:07:38 -0700
From: Kimiko Small <kimiko@kimiko1.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] My new site:)
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At 03:17 PM 4/11/2003 +1200, you wrote:
>Hey all just had confirmation that my new website is live:)
>
>So here we go:
>http://www.glittersweet.com
>
>
>I have just my costumes and the frazzled frau (german renaissance women's
>clothing links) up at the moment, will be working on some more costume
>content soon:)


Hi Michaela,

Looks good! I can access it fine myself with the two links, but I noticed a 
glitch on the Costume page. Bottom right corner of the images.

reindeer href="reindeer.htm"> collaboration

Otherwise, I love your costume works and the frazzled frau portion.

Great job!

Kimiko



Kimiko Small
Costumer, Fiber Artist, Web Designer, Wife and Mother
kimiko@kimiko1.com; http://www.kimiko1.com

Graphic Intern at Costume Gallery
http://www.costumegallery.com

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Subject: Re: [h-cost] My new site:)
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Michaela,

Now from the image map, all I can only get into is "costume portfolio" and
German Renn.  I really like the new layout!

Penny Ladnier
Owner, The Costume Gallery & Costume Classroom
http://www.costumegallery.com
http://www.costumeclassroom.com
http://www.onlinecostumeball.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Kimiko Small" <kimiko@kimiko1.com>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Friday, April 11, 2003 12:07 AM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] My new site:)


> At 03:17 PM 4/11/2003 +1200, you wrote:
> >Hey all just had confirmation that my new website is live:)
> >
> >So here we go:
> >http://www.glittersweet.com
> >
> >
> >I have just my costumes and the frazzled frau (german renaissance women's
> >clothing links) up at the moment, will be working on some more costume
> >content soon:)
>
>
> Hi Michaela,
>
> Looks good! I can access it fine myself with the two links, but I noticed
a
> glitch on the Costume page. Bottom right corner of the images.
>
> reindeer href="reindeer.htm"> collaboration
>
> Otherwise, I love your costume works and the frazzled frau portion.
>
> Great job!
>
> Kimiko
>
>
>
> Kimiko Small
> Costumer, Fiber Artist, Web Designer, Wife and Mother
> kimiko@kimiko1.com; http://www.kimiko1.com
>
> Graphic Intern at Costume Gallery
> http://www.costumegallery.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
> [This E-mail was scanned for viruses by Plugit.com Virus Scanners
(http://www.plugit.com)]
>
>


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WOW.  And i *love* the way you laid out that costume portfolio part.  
This is like the way i want to do the index for the site i've been going 
to put up Forever:  Thumbnails right on the first page, for use as links 
to all the stuff.  Do you have any secret sources of good webbing info 
you could point me to?

Heather L

michaela wrote:

>Hey all just had confirmation that my new website is live:)
>
>So here we go:
>http://www.glittersweet.com
>
>
>I have just my costumes and the frazzled frau (german renaissance women's
>clothing links) up at the moment, will be working on some more costume
>content soon:)
>
>for some strange reason I cannot access it, but I've had two people tell me
>they can so this is just really odd.
>
>michaela
>http://www.glittersweet.com
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
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>
>  
>

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To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] My new site:)
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> What a great selection of German renaissance pictures!  It earned a place
on
> my "Favorites" list!

Thanks:) I had those links for quite some time.. then a few sites changed
their folders so I had to go find them again;) I've had the site at
frazzledfrau.tripod.com for... gosh... I don't know;) But it was mostly
restricted to the black and white scans I did from Die Mode. Speaking of
which I have a few more to upload;)

Now I need to make sure all those sites that linked to the tripod site also
has my new url. I'll keep the tripod one as a mirror though:)

I created the site because there are so many different styles of that era
and place that so few people know about, all those big trumpet sleeves for
one:)

Now I'm going to see if I can do smaller sites that are similar for my other
fav eras:)

michaela
http://www.glittersweet.com



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Subject: Re: [h-cost] My new site:)
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> Looks good! I can access it fine myself with the two links, but I noticed
a
> glitch on the Costume page. Bottom right corner of the images.
> reindeer href="reindeer.htm"> collaboration
> Otherwise, I love your costume works and the frazzled frau portion.

Thanks;) Yes I just noticed that myself on the pages on my hard drive. I'm
about to upload it, along with the removal of the frames:) I only had them
for the tripod site because at that time the pop ups stayed behind the main
window. But they'd changed things a while ago. That's mostly what prompted
me to get my own site:)

I'm also uploading new piccies of the Phantom Dressing gown.

I love my digital camera:)

michaela
http://www.glittersweet.com



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Subject: Re: [h-cost] My new site:)
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> WOW.  And i *love* the way you laid out that costume portfolio part.
> This is like the way i want to do the index for the site i've been going
> to put up Forever:  Thumbnails right on the first page, for use as links
> to all the stuff.  Do you have any secret sources of good webbing info
> you could point me to?

Thanks:)

I did that because while on tripod I often exceeded my bandwidth alotment.
It means that people can see at a glance whether they want to go further
into the site or if they want to see the full image etc, without using much
bandwidth.

Hmm... good webbing info.. well I use HTML complete a fair bit. Though I
mostly get inspired by what I see on the net, what I like what I don't. And
while I do love fancy layouts, I'm on dial up so it takes a long time to
view most pages like that. So I use few graphics and css in my layout.

As for programs, I type all the code, as it keeps the code clean so the
pages load faster.

I also have a few freeware thumbnail programs which I use if I need to make
them in bulk, other wise I use the graphics editor that came with my comp.
For the cutsie teeny thumbnails I used Photoshop however. As I had to make a
few of them from half lengths or a few images put together. And of course it
has a lovely selection of selection tools;)
 Is that helpful at all?

michaela
http://www.glittersweet.com



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Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 08:06:56 +0100 (BST)
From: =?iso-8859-1?q?N=20Kipar?= <nicolas_fouquet@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] My new site:)
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This is lovely Michaela, and the idea with the wee thumbnails for the costumes
is just great. It went straight into my 'costumers' bookmark folder and trust
me, not many costumers are honoured to be in there *grins*

I always liked your Frazzled Fray site anyway, and all in one place without
pop-ups is great.

Nicole

--- michaela <thebruce@ihug.co.nz> wrote: > Hey all just had confirmation that
my new website is live:)
> 
> So here we go:
> http://www.glittersweet.com
> 
> 
> I have just my costumes and the frazzled frau (german renaissance women's
> clothing links) up at the moment, will be working on some more costume
> content soon:)
>

=====
"Brains, not Bombs"
http://www.stopthewar.org.uk/

Nicole Kipar M.A.
URL: http://www.kipar.org/
Email: nicole@kipar.org

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Subject: Re: [h-cost] My new site:)
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> Now from the image map, all I can only get into is "costume portfolio" and
> German Renn.  I really like the new layout!

yep that's all I've got up so far. Well they are the most important really..
being the more useful and or more popular of my old sites;)

I still have to get my files from my Girl's Own Annual (1906-1911) and the
Moulin Rouge and Phantom of the Opera mega-links pages (in both cases mostly
about recreations but also for useful images/info).

Oh and apparently there is a problem upstream of me, but downstream of the
server my site it on. No one in NZ can see my site, and it's to do with a
server that processes (whatever) IPS for the Pacific. Hopefully it will be
updated in the next day.

michaela
http://www.glittersweet.com so odd that it's *me* who can't see the site;)


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From: "michaela" <thebruce@ihug.co.nz>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
References: <20030411070656.36620.qmail@web41502.mail.yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] My new site:)
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 20:16:11 +1200
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> This is lovely Michaela, and the idea with the wee thumbnails for the
costumes
> is just great. It went straight into my 'costumers' bookmark folder and
trust
> me, not many costumers are honoured to be in there *grins*

Aw shucks:) Thanks:) Heheh, I love my teeny wee thumbnails:) I said I'd use
them after seeing:
http://www.paris.fr/musees/Musee_Galliera/

I thought.. that's exactly what I need;) Maybe I could make them adoptable;)
Like those Dollz;) hey collect and trade them all.. lol!

> I always liked your Frazzled Fray site anyway, and all in one place
without
> pop-ups is great.

Yeah, trust me I *love* having no ads it's great;)

I'm now able to get my mail from the site (no error message trying to get
it)... but I still can't view the site...... but hopefully it won't be long
now... sigh. It's not my ISP nor the hosts fault, it's some DNS server
thingy between us. I wonder if people in Aus can see it....

michaela
http://www.glittersweet.com



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>>> Robin wrote: 
>Not to mention they carry very small quantities of the
>larger women's
>sizes, which sell out *fast*. You'd think that would
>send a message that
>they should stock more of the larger sizes, but no...

Here in the UK I have the opposite problem. As a 51-year-old size 10 (US size 8?) I find it's the smaller sizes that sell out first in the shops, and mail-order catalogues often don't offer the styles I want, or that are designed for my age group, in anything below a 12. The average Englishwoman may be getting larger, but there are still quite a few of us petites around!



Kate Bunting
Library, University of Derby


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Subject: Re: [h-cost] My new site:)
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> Hey all just had confirmation that my new website is live:)
> 
> So here we go:
> http://www.glittersweet.com

Fantabulous!!

I am really sorry to see all those goddamn tripod pop-ups go!

The layout is really great.

Paul
--
It's easier to ask forgiveness than to get permission. - W. Slovotsky
http://members.optushome.com.au/velvetspyder
Costumier & Reprobate
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From: "Ann Neff" <a_neff@bellsouth.net>
To: "'Historical Costume'" <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: RE: [h-cost] Shopping in Atlanta
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 07:45:17 -0400
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I just looked at the Costume Con 22 website http://www.cc22.org/   They have
a page on shopping, including stores a costumer would love.
http://www.cc22.org/shopping.html

-----Original Message-----
From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com] On
Behalf Of Colleen McDonald
Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2003 12:45 PM
To: h-costume@indra.com
Subject: [h-cost] Shopping in Atlanta


I'm going to be in Atlanta next week and will have some time to kill.  Are
there any absolute "must see"'s for fabric and costuming shops for someone
interest in medieval and renaissance Italian clothes?

Colleen

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Subject: Re: [h-cost] My new site:)
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> > http://www.glittersweet.com
>
> Fantabulous!!
>
> I am really sorry to see all those goddamn tripod pop-ups go!
>
> The layout is really great.

Thanks:)

But I still can't se the damn thing. This has been one of those really
really crappy days and this just isn't helping. sigh. In two days I'm
supposed to enter a cosplay contest and the rules seem to have changed on
me, I've had no reply to emails and each part of the costume I was planning
for the new rules has just not worked. I'm having issues with things not
drying and things being the wrong colour.

I just want to go hide.

michaela
http://www.glittersweet.com



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From: "michaela" <thebruce@ihug.co.nz>
> > > http://www.glittersweet.com
> >
> > Fantabulous!!
> >
> > I am really sorry to see all those goddamn tripod pop-ups go!
> >
> > The layout is really great.
>
> Thanks:)
>
> But I still can't se the damn thing. This has been one of those really
> really crappy days and this just isn't helping. sigh. In two days I'm
> supposed to enter a cosplay contest and the rules seem to have changed on
> me, I've had no reply to emails and each part of the costume I was
planning
> for the new rules has just not worked. I'm having issues with things not
> drying and things being the wrong colour.
>
> I just want to go hide.

Fingers crossed the weekend will bring you 'net revelation!

Paul
--
It's easier to ask forgiveness than to get permission. - W. Slovotsky
http://members.optushome.com.au/velvetspyder
Costumier & Reprobate

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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Fabric Stores in the Baltimore Area???
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In a message dated 4/10/2003 11:18:45 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
cschmitt@genteelarts.com writes:


> The selection is amazing,
> the prices can be very good or not so great, 

And they are having a sale for the whole month of April--hence my trek up 
there.
Ann Wass
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From: "Lisa Sinervo" <lisa-list@threadneedlest.com>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
References: 
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	<001801c30021$0e88c130$a3d1adcb@michaela>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] My new site:)
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 06:36:07 -0700
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Looks great Michaela!

I'm curious, how does one dye their hair with crepe paper?

Lisa




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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Fri Apr 11 14:09:34 2003
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Status: RO

I just opened my copy of Pieceworks for May and found some more of Elizabethan era embroidery that some of you might find interesting.  The article is "The Fashionable Embroidered Casket" which is found in the national museum of Scotland.  Lots of nice detail to look at and history for the art form.
Among the museum shows to watch for: ST. Louis Museum through May 18, "Painted Prints, The Revelation of Color in Northern Renaissance And Baroque Engravings, Etchings and woodcuts"
             Also  at the MMA, New York, "Goddess"...ageless style of classical dress (Costume Institute, May 1-August 3)
Kathleen
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Thank you so much, this helped me massively.  It's  *exactly* what I 
need, for what I want to do.   For those with old or cheepie 
computers/software (like me), no time or no patience for clicking thru 
13 layers of pages just to see one pic only to find out it wasn't what 
they were looking for anyway.  And those who think visually, like most 
costumers.

Photoshop rocks doesn't it?
Hope you don't mind if  I get inspired by your site :-) 

Thanks again!
Heather L

michaela wrote:

>>WOW.  And i *love* the way you laid out that costume portfolio part.
>>This is like the way i want to do the index for the site i've been going
>>to put up Forever:  Thumbnails right on the first page, for use as links
>>to all the stuff.  Do you have any secret sources of good webbing info
>>you could point me to?
>>    
>>
>
>Thanks:)
>
>I did that because while on tripod I often exceeded my bandwidth alotment.
>It means that people can see at a glance whether they want to go further
>into the site or if they want to see the full image etc, without using much
>bandwidth.
>
>Hmm... good webbing info.. well I use HTML complete a fair bit. Though I
>mostly get inspired by what I see on the net, what I like what I don't. And
>while I do love fancy layouts, I'm on dial up so it takes a long time to
>view most pages like that. So I use few graphics and css in my layout.
>
>As for programs, I type all the code, as it keeps the code clean so the
>pages load faster.
>
>I also have a few freeware thumbnail programs which I use if I need to make
>them in bulk, other wise I use the graphics editor that came with my comp.
>For the cutsie teeny thumbnails I used Photoshop however. As I had to make a
>few of them from half lengths or a few images put together. And of course it
>has a lovely selection of selection tools;)
> Is that helpful at all?
>
>michaela
>http://www.glittersweet.com
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>h-costume mailing list
>h-costume@mail.indra.com
>http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
>
>  
>

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Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 19:00:01 +0100
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From: Jean Waddie <anne@montgomerie.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Gabled headdresses? (WAS: Re: [h-cost] Queen Anne Dress)
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Hello.  No, the MoL frames are not like mine.  They seem to be only a
frame for the front edge - they are just each one piece of bent wire,
really, folded in half to make two parallel sides maybe a couple of
inches apart, and then bent into the gable shape.  Since I did my web
pages, I've found more evidence that perhaps the back part was more like
stiffened fabric rather than a frame... but it's all guesswork under the
velvet, really.

Jean


Brenda Bell <webwarren@earthlink.net> wrote
 >Sue Clemenger wrote:
 >
 >>OCC: I don't remember seeing a supportasse in the V&A, but then, I only
 >>had a few hours there, and that was pretty much spent frantically
 >>photographing things in the textile rooms.  I do remember seeing,
 >>however, two metal frameworks for english gable headresses at the MoL.
 >
 ><*perking up*>
 >Did you manage to photograph those frameworks? Do they look anything
 >like Jean's frame? <*insert cartoonish begging and annoying sounds and
 >motions*>
 >
 >I did my first English hood last year based on the instructions on
 >Jean's page, and would certainly be interested in the info...
 >
 >
 >Brenda
 >webwarren@earthlink.net
 >
 >
 >_______________________________________________
 >h-costume mailing list
 >h-costume@mail.indra.com
 >http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

-- 
Jean Waddie

-- 
Jean Waddie
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To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
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	<002e01c3002f$50426fa0$5b0377d8@pavilion>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] My new site:)
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> Looks great Michaela!

Thank you:) I still can't see it though;) I'm going to try on other
computors to see if it's ok there. It might well just be my ISP not a
country wide thing.

> I'm curious, how does one dye their hair with crepe paper?

Oohh, did I edit that out?

Basically you take one packet (it was enough for my hair, which is full but
fine and very long, oh and very blonde at that stage) and squish it into
some warm water. I used about 500ml (two cups). I chose warm because it's
nicer on the head and it does help the dye come out a bit faster.

Then you just dunk your hair in it. It's rather like washing your hair in a
baisin. But of course you are adding colour:)

Squeeze out as much moisture as you can and then it's best to blow dry right
away. It stops the dye getting everywhere else.

It then washes out relatively quickly. Most of it in one wash then most of
that the next wash.

My hair is notorious for absorbing dye, so I had soft pink streaks for two
weeks. Even one day hair dye lasts several months in my hair.

Of course it helps if your hair is lighter than the colour you want to go;)
And I probably wouldn't recommend a blonde trying for black. Probably wind
up with licorice green:) But then it would come out relatively easier than
hair dye:)

michaela
http://www.glittersweet.com



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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Fri Apr 11 23:51:32 2003
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	was Cher Concert
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This is why I like to buy from shops that have storefronts and 
catalogs/websites.
The stores rarely have the sizes I want, but I can see the color, or 
try on the one
or two things in my size, go home and order several items online, and 
return them
to the storefront - no shipping back.  I love that.

(jcrew and bananarepublic both do that in the US, at least)

.heather.


On Friday, April 11, 2003, at 01:21 AM, Kate M Bunting wrote:

>
>>>> Robin wrote:
>> Not to mention they carry very small quantities of the
>> larger women's
>> sizes, which sell out *fast*. You'd think that would
>> send a message that
>> they should stock more of the larger sizes, but no...
>
> Here in the UK I have the opposite problem. As a 51-year-old size 10 
> (US size 8?) I find it's the smaller sizes that sell out first in the 
> shops, and mail-order catalogues often don't offer the styles I want, 
> or that are designed for my age group, in anything below a 12. The 
> average Englishwoman may be getting larger, but there are still quite 
> a few of us petites around!
>
>
>
> Kate Bunting
> Library, University of Derby
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> h-costume@mail.indra.com
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You know what?  I've found that sometimes that is exactly what I need to 
do when things pile up: go hide!  If you can steal some time, even a few 
minutes, find a quiet spot, shut the door on everything and everyone.  
Maybe do something *easy* like throw on some music and eat ice cream, 
drive out to a nearby part and take a walk, go shopping......

Hang in there, you're going great guns!
Heather L

michaela wrote:

>But I still can't se the damn thing. This has been one of those really
>really crappy days and this just isn't helping. sigh. In two days I'm
>supposed to enter a cosplay contest and the rules seem to have changed on
>me, I've had no reply to emails and each part of the costume I was planning
>for the new rules has just not worked. I'm having issues with things not
>drying and things being the wrong colour.
>
>I just want to go hide.
>
>michaela
>http://www.glittersweet.com
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>h-costume mailing list
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>
>  
>

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"michaela" <thebruce@ihug.co.nz> wrote:
> > I'm curious, how does one dye their hair with crepe paper?
> 
> Oohh, did I edit that out?
> 
> Basically you take one packet (it was enough for my hair, which is full but
> fine and very long, oh and very blonde at that stage) and squish it into
> some warm water. I used about 500ml (two cups). I chose warm because it's
> nicer on the head and it does help the dye come out a bit faster.
> 
> Then you just dunk your hair in it. It's rather like washing your hair in a
> baisin. But of course you are adding colour:)
> 
> Squeeze out as much moisture as you can and then it's best to blow dry right
> away. It stops the dye getting everywhere else.
> 
> It then washes out relatively quickly. Most of it in one wash then most of
> that the next wash.
> 
> My hair is notorious for absorbing dye, so I had soft pink streaks for two
> weeks. Even one day hair dye lasts several months in my hair.
> 
> Of course it helps if your hair is lighter than the colour you want to go;)
> And I probably wouldn't recommend a blonde trying for black. Probably wind
> up with licorice green:) But then it would come out relatively easier than
> hair dye:)

[grin]  This sounds similar to our high-school adventures in dyeing hair
with Kool-Aid.  Definitely use the sugar-free type if you're going to try
this.  The best results we got were mixing a couple packets of drink mix
with a creamy conditioner that's white (no color clash).  Warm it up in the
microwave and slather it on your hair.  Leave for an hour or two under a 
plastic cap.  Rinse out.  It'll bleed like mad.  If you leave the dye on 
for a shorter period, it'll wash out faster, but the color won't be as intense.
We used to dye our hair that way before the various weird color dye lines
like Punky Colors, Manic Panic and Special Effects were available.  Kool Aid
gave more consistant results than food coloring (though I'd never had access
to the concentrated coloring pastes used for cake icing back then).  

Lee M.Thompson-Herbert        lee@retro.com	      KoX 1995, SP4
Head Muso, White Rats Morris, Faultline Morris
Member, Knights of Xenu (1995).  Chaos Monger and Jill of All Trades.
"A head-on collision between Morticia Adams and Martha Stewart"
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> [grin]  This sounds similar to our high-school adventures in dyeing hair
> with Kool-Aid.  Definitely use the sugar-free type if you're going to try
> this.  The best results we got were mixing a couple packets of drink mix
> with a creamy conditioner that's white (no color clash).  Warm it up in
the
> microwave and slather it on your hair.
<big snip>

I shall definately be adding this to my list of "how toos":) Though we don't
have Kool Aid here so I might have to see if raro is a good substitute;)

michaela
finally able to see my own site;) darned middle men servers;)
http://www.glittersweet.com



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From: "michaela" <thebruce@ihug.co.nz>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
References: 
	<1f1.6072d28.2bc2e916@aol.com><013c01c2fd42$49026dc0$bd604e40@yourczpl0pp1h9><OE28lbU1PywZydWrXQ700009a2d@hotmail.com><200304072235.14540.cathy@thyrsus.com><p05100302bab8a2f06e9f@[136.152.197.229]><002701c2ffd8$ee2a8ce0$5ac3adcb@michaela><00ee01c30010$2dc9c320$18a231d2@valadan><001801c30021$0e88c130$a3d1adcb@michaela>
	<3E97C106.1060901@grics.net>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] My new site:)
Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2003 00:00:22 +1200
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> You know what?  I've found that sometimes that is exactly what I need to
> do when things pile up: go hide!  If you can steal some time, even a few
> minutes, find a quiet spot, shut the door on everything and everyone.
> Maybe do something *easy* like throw on some music and eat ice cream,
> drive out to a nearby part and take a walk, go shopping......

:) I had a fairly decent night's sleep which helped, and I kicked the cat
out of my room after he decided being fed at 5am wasn't enough, he wanted to
play;)

ANd I've had a brilliant costume day today:)

I'm entering a Cosplay/fantasy contest tomorrow and am going as Galadriel.
But not just any Galadriel, oh no. I decided to go for Galadriel under the
influence of the ring. With that breatplate thing. And weird colouring and
tattered costume. Oh yes.

I had been fighting with the silver paint not liking the fimo scuplts for
the brooch and bits. Then my ear molds broke. And nothing worked. But today
I made geletin ears and they are so nifty:) And I got the paint to stay on
at least well enough for one day;) And my old breastplate is better than the
new one (well marginally;) ) so....

Oh and I bashed and stomped on the under dress and cloak in the middle of
our road. I think the neighbours were amused;)

> Hang in there, you're going great guns!
> Heather L

Thanks:) It really means so much when other people appreciate all the effort
that goes into costuming:)

Oh:) I found a brilliant orange full wool blanket to make into a winter
coat, so my tangerine orange wool stash will now become something
historical:) I'm in the mood after all this movie stuff:)

regards,
michaela
http://www.glittersweet.com



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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Sat Apr 12 14:45:52 2003
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Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 13:53:12 -0400
From: Gail & Scott Finke <gailscott@eos.net>
To: <h-costume@indra.com>
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Subject: [h-cost] Re: Old Navy
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I have to join the chorus on this one. I buy clothes for my husband and my
children at Old Navy, which constantly advertises itself as a store for the
whole family. But although I am not a large size (I wear a 10P in pants),
every woman's thing in that store is cut for a junior size. Flat everywhere!
And all the women's pants are those low-rise pants, which IMHO don't look
good on anyone who isn't a Hollywood actress. Because I am frequently at the
store, I've found a few t-shirts for myself over the last months, but that's
all.

But that isn't my biggest complaint! I buy men's, girl's, and boy's clothes
there, as well as infant clothes for gifts. The woman's stuff seems to be
made to a whole different standard. On most things the fabrics are awful and
so is the construction. It makes no sense to me.

Gail Finke


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Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 09:34:13 -0700
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: MaryAnn Jones <mabse@attbi.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] My new site:)
In-Reply-To: <004201c300eb$19323060$bec3adcb@michaela>
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I'm entering a Cosplay/fantasy contest tomorrow and am going as Galadriel.
>But not just any Galadriel, oh no. I decided to go for Galadriel under the
>influence of the ring. With that breatplate thing. And weird colouring and
>tattered costume. Oh yes.

Now that is brilliant

>Oh:) I found a brilliant orange full wool blanket to make into a winter
>coat, so my tangerine orange wool stash will now become something
>historical:) I'm in the mood after all this movie stuff:)

I love tangerine, what period can you use it for?

Maryann



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From: "Sally Ann Chandler" <medcc@medcc.free-online.co.uk>
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Status: RO

I've been on this list so many years I can't remember the details I put in when I started.  Can anyone tell me how to get off please?  Thanks,

Sally Ann
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From: Elizabeth Lear <eliz@indra.com>
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Running Away!
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On Sat, Apr 12, 2003 at 11:03:40PM +0100, Sally Ann Chandler wrote:
> I've been on this list so many years I can't remember the details I put in when I started.  Can anyone tell me how to get off please?  Thanks,


If you go to the web site listed at the bottom of each list message:
        http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
you can access all admin functions.

Go to the very last box on the bottom, where it says "To change your
subscription (set options like digest and delivery modes, get a
reminder of your password, or unsubscribe), enter your subscription
email address:"

Enter your email address, and hit 'edit options'.  You will then see a
new page which shows you your personal configurations, and allows you
to unsubscribe, change to or from digest, set yourself 'no mail', and
other options.  You must enter your password for these to take effect,
so there's a box at the top to have the password mailed to you if you
need it.

If you want to sub or unsub, you can also send email to
        h-costume-request@indra.com
with the subject line of 'subscribe' or 'unsubscribe'.

						...eliz


-- 
You need only two tools. WD-40 and duct tape. If it doesn't move and it
should, use WD-40. If it moves and shouldn't, use the tape.
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go to the link at the bottom of the email.


On Saturday, April 12, 2003, at 03:03 PM, Sally Ann Chandler wrote:

> I've been on this list so many years I can't remember the details I 
> put in when I started.  Can anyone tell me how to get off please?  
> Thanks,
>
> Sally Ann
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
>

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From: "Sally Ann Chandler" <medcc@medcc.free-online.co.uk>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
References: <53164313-6D32-11D7-BCE4-00039369A97A@wonderland.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Running Away!
Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 23:27:59 +0100
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I've done that but I can't remember my password etc.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: Heather Meadows <alice@wonderland.com>
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Saturday, April 12, 2003 11:01 PM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Running Away!


> go to the link at the bottom of the email.
> 
> 
> On Saturday, April 12, 2003, at 03:03 PM, Sally Ann Chandler wrote:
> 
> > I've been on this list so many years I can't remember the details I 
> > put in when I started.  Can anyone tell me how to get off please?  
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Sally Ann
> > _______________________________________________
> > h-costume mailing list
> > h-costume@mail.indra.com
> > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
> >
> 
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
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> 

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Subject: Re: [h-cost] My new site:)
Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2003 10:53:06 +1200
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> I'm entering a Cosplay/fantasy contest tomorrow and am going as Galadriel.
> >But not just any Galadriel, oh no. I decided to go for Galadriel under
the
> >influence of the ring. With that breatplate thing. And weird colouring
and
> >tattered costume. Oh yes.
>
> Now that is brilliant

Thanks:) I am registered, and I think they got the images so I don't need to
hand them in before 12 midday.. so I'll hopefully be able to turn up at 2.30
for the 3.30 start. That way I know my ears will last;)

> >Oh:) I found a brilliant orange full wool blanket to make into a winter
> >coat, so my tangerine orange wool stash will now become something
> >historical:) I'm in the mood after all this movie stuff:)
> I love tangerine, what period can you use it for?


German ren of course;) It's not a brilliant jewel tone, but one of those
rich heavy colours. Which is good as it suits the fabric:)

I'm thinking circular skirt with trumpet sleeves and black velvet
guarding... not sure if it will be open and laced or closed... but this time
I'm going to bead the heck out of the guards;) As the fabric isn't
patterned, whereas my first german cossie was (beading would have been too
fussy).

right... 3 hours to get ready... I'm so nervous.. I'm going to have to give
the "Instead of a Dark Lord you would have a Queen! Not dark but beautiful
and terrible as the dawn, trecherous as the sea, stronger than the
foundations of the earth. All shall love me and despair" speech.

I'll probably mumble over the "beautiful reference;) But no.. i'll be in
character.. I have to *believe* ;)

hehheheeh

michaela
http://glittersweet.com



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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] My new site:)
References: 
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Cool!  One day like that is worth putting up with a bad one or 2 IMHO :-)

michaela wrote:

>>You know what?  I've found that sometimes that is exactly what I need to
>>do when things pile up: go hide!  If you can steal some time, even a few
>>minutes, find a quiet spot, shut the door on everything and everyone.
>>Maybe do something *easy* like throw on some music and eat ice cream,
>>drive out to a nearby part and take a walk, go shopping......
>>    
>>
>
>:) I had a fairly decent night's sleep which helped, and I kicked the cat
>out of my room after he decided being fed at 5am wasn't enough, he wanted to
>play;)
>
>ANd I've had a brilliant costume day today:)
>
>I'm entering a Cosplay/fantasy contest tomorrow and am going as Galadriel.
>But not just any Galadriel, oh no. I decided to go for Galadriel under the
>influence of the ring. With that breatplate thing. And weird colouring and
>tattered costume. Oh yes.
>
>I had been fighting with the silver paint not liking the fimo scuplts for
>the brooch and bits. Then my ear molds broke. And nothing worked. But today
>I made geletin ears and they are so nifty:) And I got the paint to stay on
>at least well enough for one day;) And my old breastplate is better than the
>new one (well marginally;) ) so....
>
>Oh and I bashed and stomped on the under dress and cloak in the middle of
>our road. I think the neighbours were amused;)
>
>  
>
>>Hang in there, you're going great guns!
>>Heather L
>>    
>>
>
>Thanks:) It really means so much when other people appreciate all the effort
>that goes into costuming:)
>
>Oh:) I found a brilliant orange full wool blanket to make into a winter
>coat, so my tangerine orange wool stash will now become something
>historical:) I'm in the mood after all this movie stuff:)
>
>regards,
>michaela
>http://www.glittersweet.com
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>h-costume mailing list
>h-costume@mail.indra.com
>http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
>
>  
>

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Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 22:05:59 -0700
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: MaryAnn Jones <mabse@attbi.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] My new site:)
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At 10:53 AM 4/13/2003 +1200, you wrote:
>I'll probably mumble over the "beautiful reference;) But no.. i'll be in
>character.. I have to *believe*

but I saw your web site, if that is you, you are beautiful.  why are you 
mumbling?

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Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2003 00:34:17 -0700
From: Kimiko Small <kimiko@kimiko1.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: Old Navy
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At 01:53 PM 4/12/2003 -0400, you wrote:
>The woman's stuff seems to be
>made to a whole different standard. On most things the fabrics are awful and
>so is the construction. It makes no sense to me.


I got so fed up with the bad sizing and bad materials and the bad 
construction of women's clothing, that I no longer buy my regular clothes 
from any department store. I buy underwear but only because it is cheaper. 
I am tired of having to fit someone else's standards, and the cheap quality 
that fall apart within months. They know we buy lots of clothes and have 
all sorts of stuff going to waste in our closets while we shop for more. No 
wonder it doesn't last, it doesn't have to anymore.

I notice they even are advertising for this mentality. WalMart with their 
young girls that love to shop because you can buy more for your money. Well 
girls, you get what you pay for.

Until they finally size women by our actual size, and not some made up 
number, I will make my own custom clothes for me. Unlike our male 
counterparts who can buy their pants by their actual waist size, or shirts 
by their neck size, which sometimes has no correlation to their other 
parts, but at least it fits one part of the body.

Bah, I so dislike not fitting into anything anymore, not even my old blue 
1560s style nobles from six years ago. Sorry, just getting bitter in my 
middle age. At least my new costume will fit.

Kimiko



Kimiko Small
Costumer, Fiber Artist, Web Designer, Wife and Mother
kimiko@kimiko1.com; http://www.kimiko1.com

Graphic Intern at Costume Gallery
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From: Kimiko Small <kimiko@kimiko1.com>
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Subject: [h-cost] Appliques on surcoat
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I just had to share. I finally started the appliques on my surcoat today. 
The material finally chosen is a dark blue/black wool, with the appliques 
in dark blue cotton velveteen.

Used "Seam a Seam 2" on the applique pieces to hold them in place, and 
after many trial runs on the machine to overlay a couple of cords for a 
period look, decided to give up and ran a narrow satin stitch in gold 
thread instead. The wool drapes nicely, which I want for the back side, but 
the front is going to have to be a little stiffer to show the design 
better. Any suggestions on what would stiffen the wool material without 
using no-sew interfacing?

If I had more time I would have hand couched the applique edges instead. I 
guess that will have to wait for another garment when I have the time to do 
it properly. I have to do three costumes by the last weekend of this month, 
and with a baby boy to play with half the waking day, I gotta speed things 
in other areas.

Kimiko


Kimiko Small
Costumer, Fiber Artist, Web Designer, Wife and Mother
kimiko@kimiko1.com; http://www.kimiko1.com

Graphic Intern at Costume Gallery
http://www.costumegallery.com

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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Sun Apr 13 06:11:35 2003
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From: "michaela" <thebruce@ihug.co.nz>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
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Subject: I won!!! Re: [h-cost] My new site:)
Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2003 22:10:17 +1200
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> >I'll probably mumble over the "beautiful reference;) But no.. i'll be in
> >character.. I have to *believe*
> but I saw your web site, if that is you, you are beautiful.  why are you
> mumbling?

lol! Very selective photo choosing actually;) As I had to do today with the
photos of Galadriel;)
http://www.glittersweet.com/costumes/galadriel.htm

I'm a fussy subject;)

Wow. What a blast. I was hte only non-anime costume btw;) So I figured there
was no way I could win as the judges were all anime fans. but they did say
it was open to more than just anime... next time it shall be Satine from
Moulin Rouge;)

michaela
http://www.glittersweet.com



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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Sun Apr 13 10:00:46 2003
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Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2003 14:59:26 +0100 (BST)
From: =?iso-8859-1?q?N=20Kipar?= <nicolas_fouquet@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: I won!!! Re: [h-cost] My new site:)
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
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CONGRATULATIONS! The costume looks great, and I find it extra-fantastic because
I coveted this costume and thought 'no way I don't have the faintest clue how
to make the breast plate without having to go and have it made by our
weaponsmith'. And there it is, you did it!

Super, and congrats again, so which costume are you going to make with the cash
prize you won? *G*

Nicole


> lol! Very selective photo choosing actually;) As I had to do today with the
> photos of Galadriel;)
> http://www.glittersweet.com/costumes/galadriel.htm
> 
> I'm a fussy subject;)
> 
> Wow. What a blast. I was hte only non-anime costume btw;) So I figured there
> was no way I could win as the judges were all anime fans. but they did say
> it was open to more than just anime... next time it shall be Satine from
> Moulin Rouge;)
> 
> michaela
> http://www.glittersweet.com
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume 

=====
"Brains, not Bombs"
http://www.stopthewar.org.uk/

Nicole Kipar M.A.
URL: http://www.kipar.org/
Email: nicole@kipar.org

__________________________________________________
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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Sun Apr 13 11:21:46 2003
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From: "Saragrace Knauf" <saragrace@earthlink.net>
To: "'Historical Costume'" <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: RE: [h-cost] Appliques on surcoat
Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2003 08:20:38 -0700
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Kimiko, are you just stiffening the front to do the appliqué?  I mean
would it work to remove a stabilizer after you were done doing the
appliqué because of course there are many different kinds of removable
stabilizers.  Or do you need to leave the stiffening in?  Some
lightweight fusibles would probably work provided the edges were
eventually incorporated into a seam (sort of a 'cheater' way to get sewn
in interfacing without the hassle).  

Could you explain a little more why you need the stiffening?

Sounds very interesting-I would love to see pictures!

Sg


"The root of education is bitter, the fruit sweet"
Isocrates


~-----Original Message-----
~From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com]
On
~Behalf Of Kimiko Small
~Sent: Sunday, April 13, 2003 12:42 AM
~To: h-costume@indra.com
~Subject: [h-cost] Appliques on surcoat
~
~I just had to share. I finally started the appliques on my surcoat
today.
~The material finally chosen is a dark blue/black wool, with the
appliques
~in dark blue cotton velveteen.
~
~Used "Seam a Seam 2" on the applique pieces to hold them in place, and
~after many trial runs on the machine to overlay a couple of cords for a
~period look, decided to give up and ran a narrow satin stitch in gold
~thread instead. The wool drapes nicely, which I want for the back side,
but
~the front is going to have to be a little stiffer to show the design
~better. Any suggestions on what would stiffen the wool material without
~using no-sew interfacing?
~
~If I had more time I would have hand couched the applique edges
instead. I
~guess that will have to wait for another garment when I have the time
to do
~it properly. I have to do three costumes by the last weekend of this
month,
~and with a baby boy to play with half the waking day, I gotta speed
things
~in other areas.
~
~Kimiko
~
~
~Kimiko Small
~Costumer, Fiber Artist, Web Designer, Wife and Mother
~kimiko@kimiko1.com; http://www.kimiko1.com
~
~Graphic Intern at Costume Gallery
~http://www.costumegallery.com
~
~_______________________________________________
~h-costume mailing list
~h-costume@mail.indra.com
~http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume


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Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2003 08:36:18 -0700
From: Kimiko Small <kimiko@kimiko1.com>
Subject: Re: I won!!! Re: [h-cost] My new site:)
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At 10:10 PM 4/13/2003 +1200, you wrote:
>As I had to do today with the
>photos of Galadriel;)
>http://www.glittersweet.com/costumes/galadriel.htm


Hi Michaela,

Wow, that costume is just stunning! Congratulations on winning the cosplay. 
I never thought humble felt could look so good as armor. And the rest is 
wonderful too, even with all the problems you faced.

So, what is a cosplay exactly? I have not heard the term before.

Kimiko



Kimiko Small
Costumer, Fiber Artist, Web Designer, Wife and Mother
kimiko@kimiko1.com; http://www.kimiko1.com

Graphic Intern at Costume Gallery
http://www.costumegallery.com

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Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2003 08:29:46 -0700
From: Kimiko Small <kimiko@kimiko1.com>
Subject: RE: [h-cost] Appliques on surcoat
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Hiya,

At 08:20 AM 4/13/2003 -0700, you wrote:
>Kimiko, are you just stiffening the front to do the appliqué?  I mean
>would it work to remove a stabilizer after you were done doing the
>appliqué because of course there are many different kinds of removable
>stabilizers.  Or do you need to leave the stiffening in?  Some
>lightweight fusibles would probably work provided the edges were
>eventually incorporated into a seam (sort of a 'cheater' way to get sewn
>in interfacing without the hassle).
>
>Could you explain a little more why you need the stiffening?

I need the front to remain flatter so it won't drape so much and bend the 
appliques, so it will be nicer to look at. It needs to remain in place 
after the appliques are being sewn on. I am using a tear away stabilizer 
for the appliques, but that is too flimsy to remain.

>Sounds very interesting-I would love to see pictures!

I am taking digital pics through the whole process so I can upload to my 
website. I will let you guys know when that is done. This is actually a fun 
thing to do for me, doing appliques I mean. I haven't done them on a 
costume before.

Hmmm... maybe I should start one of those costume diaries to show the 
thought process? I have never done one of those either before. Is there 
anything in particular one should put on a costume diary?

>Sg

Kimiko



Kimiko Small
Costumer, Fiber Artist, Web Designer, Wife and Mother
kimiko@kimiko1.com; http://www.kimiko1.com

Graphic Intern at Costume Gallery
http://www.costumegallery.com


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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Sun Apr 13 12:52:21 2003
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Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2003 09:50:42 -0700
Subject: Re: I won!!! Re: [h-cost] My new site:)
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wow.  that was just a fantastic costume, michaela!  I am in AWE.


On Sunday, April 13, 2003, at 03:10 AM, michaela wrote:

>>> I'll probably mumble over the "beautiful reference;) But no.. i'll 
>>> be in
>>> character.. I have to *believe*
>> but I saw your web site, if that is you, you are beautiful.  why are 
>> you
>> mumbling?
>
> lol! Very selective photo choosing actually;) As I had to do today 
> with the
> photos of Galadriel;)
> http://www.glittersweet.com/costumes/galadriel.htm
>
> I'm a fussy subject;)
>
> Wow. What a blast. I was hte only non-anime costume btw;) So I figured 
> there
> was no way I could win as the judges were all anime fans. but they did 
> say
> it was open to more than just anime... next time it shall be Satine 
> from
> Moulin Rouge;)
>
> michaela
> http://www.glittersweet.com
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
>

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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Sun Apr 13 13:05:14 2003
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Subject: Re: I won!!! Re: [h-cost] My new site:)
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Nicole, there are some really great tips on making armor-looks
for the stage in the Costume Technicians' Handbook.   You should
check it out!


On Sunday, April 13, 2003, at 06:59 AM, N Kipar wrote:

> CONGRATULATIONS! The costume looks great, and I find it 
> extra-fantastic because
> I coveted this costume and thought 'no way I don't have the faintest 
> clue how
> to make the breast plate without having to go and have it made by our
> weaponsmith'. And there it is, you did it!
>
> Super, and congrats again, so which costume are you going to make with 
> the cash
> prize you won? *G*
>
> Nicole
>
>
>> lol! Very selective photo choosing actually;) As I had to do today 
>> with the
>> photos of Galadriel;)
>> http://www.glittersweet.com/costumes/galadriel.htm
>>
>> I'm a fussy subject;)
>>
>> Wow. What a blast. I was hte only non-anime costume btw;) So I 
>> figured there
>> was no way I could win as the judges were all anime fans. but they 
>> did say
>> it was open to more than just anime... next time it shall be Satine 
>> from
>> Moulin Rouge;)
>>
>> michaela
>> http://www.glittersweet.com
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> h-costume mailing list
>> h-costume@mail.indra.com
>> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
>
> =====
> "Brains, not Bombs"
> http://www.stopthewar.org.uk/
>
> Nicole Kipar M.A.
> URL: http://www.kipar.org/
> Email: nicole@kipar.org
>
> __________________________________________________
> Yahoo! Plus
> For a better Internet experience
> http://www.yahoo.co.uk/btoffer
> _______________________________________________
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Kimiko Small <kimiko@kimiko1.com> writes:

>I got so fed up with the bad sizing and bad materials and the bad 
>construction of women's clothing, that I no longer buy my regular clothes 
>from any department store. I buy underwear but only because it is cheaper. 
>I am tired of having to fit someone else's standards, and the cheap 
>quality that fall apart within months.

I find that it helps to invest more in fewer pieces, and to know the lines 
of one or two designers that tend to fit closer to your body type. (For me, 
it was Elisabeth petites when I was in Women's sizes, and I've loved the 
fit *for me* in Jones New York, both in their Misses'/Misses' Petites and 
Women's Petites. When I was just out of college, Evan Piccone was another 
line that fit well, but I couldn't begin to afford it then...) I've had 
Jones pieces and Elisabeth pieces that I've worn day-in, day-out for years...

>Until they finally size women by our actual size, and not some made up 
>number, I will make my own custom clothes for me.

I should certainly like to see blouses and dresses sized by 
bra-size-plus-figure-type... Hmm. Maybe when we get automated cutting down 
to something cost-effective to do on an individual basis, we could walk 
into a shop, plug in our measurements (or have them scanned), pick out 
style and fabric from sample books, plunk down some money, have a nice 
lunch, and then our custom-fitted, custom-made new clothes will be ready 
for us to take home... I suspect the technology is about 80% there, and the 
price should be reasonable for "investment dressing" ($600-1000 per ladies' 
suit) within 5-10 years, and down to $250 for a woman's suit within no more 
than 20 years...

>Unlike our male counterparts who can buy their pants by their actual waist 
>size, or shirts by their neck size, which sometimes has no correlation to 
>their other parts, but at least it fits one part of the body.

You do NOT want to hear me rail out about men's clothing sizes. My other 
half is a BBW and constantly has to buy pants two sizes too large in the 
waist so they'll fit him at the hips and thigh. He can't find a properly 
fitting shirt because even the "big" cut shirts that fit him across the 
chest and stomach are gapingly wide at the neck. If a suit jacket fits him 
moderately ok (i.e., it can be altered to fit), the pants don't. AND this 
is in the shops that actually *have* specialty sizes.

Worse yet, while BBWs ave specialty stores like Lane Bryant, The Avenue, 
Catherine's, and August Max Woman, AND Women's Departments in most major 
department stores, men only have Casual Male Big & Tall (they bought out 
Repp and discontinued all their good stuff), Rochester Big & Tall (for the 
*very* well-heeled only:  their shirts start at $100... For "super-sized" 
(over size 60) men, it gets even worse:  only King Size and Repp mail 
order, and a very limited number of individual specialty shops (those which 
do custom work) sell clothes with any inkling of a possibility of fit. (One 
of our friends is about 6'4" and well over 400 lb.; the few garments he 
owns have to be custom-tailored.) At least LB and Avenue usually go up to a 
size 32...

BTW, I never knew how limited big men's options were until Frank and I 
started getting serious... so if there are no BBM's in your life, I can 
understand not knowing how much more limited their options are than ours.


Brenda
webwarren@earthlink.net


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Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2003 18:39:37 +0100 (BST)
From: =?iso-8859-1?q?N=20Kipar?= <nicolas_fouquet@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: I won!!! Re: [h-cost] My new site:)
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
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 --- Heather Meadows <alice@wonderland.com> wrote: > Nicole, there are some
really great tips on making armor-looks
> for the stage in the Costume Technicians' Handbook.   You should
> check it out!

Doh! *slaps forehead* Thanks Heather, I actually have that book. I just have
too many! I keep forgettiong what I actually have and what is worth looking at.
Silly.
Currently I am working on a black and gold Byzantine-style Sci-Fi Empress for a
Sci-Fi party. Empress K'hay-Thora from the planet of D'hay-lar is coming along
nicely *G*

Nicole - senile, obviously! ;-)

=====
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http://www.stopthewar.org.uk/

Nicole Kipar M.A.
URL: http://www.kipar.org/
Email: nicole@kipar.org

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Subject: Re: Re: [h-cost] Re: Old Navy
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 --- Brenda <webwarren@earthlink.net> wrote: > 

My other 
> half is a BBW 

What the doodah are BBW's???

Enquiring minds want to know :-)

Nicole

=====
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http://www.stopthewar.org.uk/

Nicole Kipar M.A.
URL: http://www.kipar.org/
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In a message dated 4/13/03 1:43:01 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
nicolas_fouquet@yahoo.com writes:

> What the doodah are BBW's???
> 
> Enquiring minds want to know :-)

Could be wrong, but...Big Beautiful Woman?  That's the only definition I've 
seen for the abbreviation.  

Christine
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Subject: Re: Re: [h-cost] Re: Old Navy
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What drives me crazy about the limited sizing is that stores like J. Crew
will carry a men's size up to chest 50", but women's sizes only up to bust
41".  While all of us who are well-endowed, men and women, have problems
finding clothes that fit, I STILL don't understand why it's okay to carry
larger men's sizes than women's.

- Kendra

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However, that's what they claim.  They use enough ease in the
women's designs that I wear them comfortably, sometimes even
wearing a L instead of an XL.  and I'm a bust size 47"...

.heather.


On Sunday, April 13, 2003, at 11:01 AM, Kendra Van Cleave wrote:

> What drives me crazy about the limited sizing is that stores like J. 
> Crew
> will carry a men's size up to chest 50", but women's sizes only up to 
> bust
> 41".  While all of us who are well-endowed, men and women, have 
> problems
> finding clothes that fit, I STILL don't understand why it's okay to 
> carry
> larger men's sizes than women's.
>
> - Kendra
>
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
>

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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Sun Apr 13 18:10:08 2003
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From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" <drewscph@post12.tele.dk>
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Subject: [h-cost] a little danish gentlemans visit to Bath
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Hello!
I am sorry i teased you all, last week before i went to England, my
frontpage teased me.
But here is a little preview of my first visit dressed in costume ever:
http://www.my-drewscostumes.dk/readytogo.html
I have just come home from Bath, and it was absolutely lovely, my first
time, but not the last.
It is midnight here in Copenhagen, and i must go to work early tomorrow, so
i promise to make you all a lovely webpage with lots of pictures of the
event.

Many Greetings

the little danish gentleman

Leif og Bjarne Drews
www.my-drewscostumes.dk

http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/


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"Big Beautiful Woman."  AFAIK, a term popularized by a magazine of the
same name that I haven't seen in years.  A fashion magazine aimed at the
plus-sized market, with the ethos that larger-than-size 12 people are
not only vital, active, dressy, sexy people, but are also worth loving.
--sue

N Kipar wrote:
> 
>  --- Brenda <webwarren@earthlink.net> wrote: >
> 
> My other
> > half is a BBW
> 
> What the doodah are BBW's???
> 
> Enquiring minds want to know :-)
> 
> Nicole
> 
> =====
> "Brains, not Bombs"
> http://www.stopthewar.org.uk/
> 
> Nicole Kipar M.A.
> URL: http://www.kipar.org/
> Email: nicole@kipar.org
> 
> __________________________________________________
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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: Old Navy
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Because it's still more okay to be a larger man that it is to be a
larger woman....
--sue

Kendra Van Cleave wrote:
> 
> What drives me crazy about the limited sizing is that stores like J. Crew
> will carry a men's size up to chest 50", but women's sizes only up to bust
> 41".  While all of us who are well-endowed, men and women, have problems
> finding clothes that fit, I STILL don't understand why it's okay to carry
> larger men's sizes than women's.
> 
> - Kendra
> 
> _______________________________________________
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Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2003 17:19:51 -0400
Subject: Re: [h-cost] a little danish gentlemans visit to Bath
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        How very handsome you are.  I am dying to see the rest of the
photos.

Lalah
Never give up, Never surrender
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Scrumptious!!  Did everyone ooh and aah over you as you deserve?

I'm sure no one there was as well-dressed as you, though of course we're
all interested to see pictures of the rest of the ball.

Melanie Schuessler
http://www.faucet.net/costume
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From: Margo Anderson <margo@margospatterns.com>
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Subject: [h-cost] Now I know why I do 16th century...
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<vent>

Arrgh!  I'm working on my dress for the Friday Night social at Costume Con.
 I have now ripped the zipper out and replaced it 7 times. I'm sewing it
onto two layers of duck with stretch velvet over them, and it looks awful.
Now I'm going to try hand prickstitching it, and hope I can make it strong
enough.  

Sheesh. Why did they ever invent these things? Give me lacing anytime.

</vent>

Margo

"One Tough Costumer"
http://www.margospatterns.com
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Now I know why I do 16th century...
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In a message dated 4/13/03 8:15:17 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
margo@margospatterns.com writes:

> Arrgh!  I'm working on my dress for the Friday Night social at Costume Con.
> I have now ripped the zipper out and replaced it 7 times. I'm sewing it
> onto two layers of duck with stretch velvet over them, and it looks awful.
> Now I'm going to try hand prickstitching it, and hope I can make it strong
> enough.  
> 
> Sheesh. Why did they ever invent these things? Give me lacing anytime.

Take a deep breath, Margo, then beat the zipper with a rubber mallet...but 
only if the zipper is made of metal!  And just remember...it's okay to be 
less than entirely historically accurate.  The Social, fun as it sounds, 
isn't a competition.  ;-)

Christine
Who hasn't even STARTED her social dress, since the darned company said it 
wouldn't arrive until TUESDAY!
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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Sun Apr 13 20:42:05 2003
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Now I know why I do 16th century...
Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 10:44:59 +1000
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Why not lace anyway? Lacing always looks good with velvet, or are you going
for a particular style that has to have a zip?

Glenda.

----- Original Message -----

> <vent>
>
> Arrgh!  I'm working on my dress for the Friday Night social at Costume
Con.
>  I have now ripped the zipper out and replaced it 7 times. I'm sewing it
> onto two layers of duck with stretch velvet over them, and it looks awful.
> Now I'm going to try hand prickstitching it, and hope I can make it strong
> enough.
>
> Sheesh. Why did they ever invent these things? Give me lacing anytime.
>
> </vent>
>
> Margo
>

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Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2003 20:51:06 -0400
To: h-costume@indra.com
From: Brenda <webwarren@earthlink.net>
Subject: BBW/BBM (WAS: Re: [h-cost] Re: Old Navy)
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Christine responds to Nicole:

> > What the doodah are BBW's???
>
>Could be wrong, but...Big Beautiful Woman?  That's the only definition I've
>seen for the abbreviation.

Exactly so.

It refers to a woman US size 14 or larger.

BBM -- Big, Beautiful Man -- is the male counterpart, and refers to men 
over (in US sizes) a 44 or 46 chest (suit jacket), 42 waist, and I think 
it's either a 16 shirt or a 17-1/2 shirt.



Brenda
webwarren@earthlink.net


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From: "Lisa Sinervo" <lisa-list@threadneedlest.com>
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	<3.0.6.32.20030413171650.00cc1220@pop.directcon.net>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Now I know why I do 16th century...
Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2003 18:03:58 -0700
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Margo, I'm a major fan of hand sewing including the attachment of zippers,
and even when I sew things by machine, hand basting is often my first step,
especially with velvet.  It is the little extra steps that make the
difference in a quality garment.

Good luck!!

Lisa


----- Original Message -----
From: "Margo Anderson" <margo@margospatterns.com>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>; "Historical Costume"
<h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Sunday, April 13, 2003 5:16 PM
Subject: [h-cost] Now I know why I do 16th century...


> <vent>
>
> Arrgh!  I'm working on my dress for the Friday Night social at Costume
Con.
>  I have now ripped the zipper out and replaced it 7 times. I'm sewing it
> onto two layers of duck with stretch velvet over them, and it looks awful.
> Now I'm going to try hand prickstitching it, and hope I can make it strong
> enough.
>
> Sheesh. Why did they ever invent these things? Give me lacing anytime.
>
> </vent>
>
> Margo
>
> "One Tough Costumer"
> http://www.margospatterns.com
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
>


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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: I won!!! Re: [h-cost] My new site:)
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WOW!!!!  And you have such a perfect little delicate face for doing such 
elventhings....

Heather L
sorta missing being 25 and 125.....
michaela wrote:

>>>I'll probably mumble over the "beautiful reference;) But no.. i'll be in
>>>character.. I have to *believe*
>>>      
>>>
>>but I saw your web site, if that is you, you are beautiful.  why are you
>>mumbling?
>>    
>>
>
>lol! Very selective photo choosing actually;) As I had to do today with the
>photos of Galadriel;)
>http://www.glittersweet.com/costumes/galadriel.htm
>
>I'm a fussy subject;)
>
>Wow. What a blast. I was hte only non-anime costume btw;) So I figured there
>was no way I could win as the judges were all anime fans. but they did say
>it was open to more than just anime... next time it shall be Satine from
>Moulin Rouge;)
>
>michaela
>http://www.glittersweet.com
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
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>
>  
>

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Subject: Re: [h-cost] a little danish gentlemans visit to Bath
Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2003 18:00:27 -0700
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Ok, there are not words. Not in Danish or English for how beautiful the
famous suit looks on you, nor for how you consistently amaze us all with
your talents.

Wow cubed.

angela
+++++
Angela F. Lazear
Cabbage Rose Costumes
http://www.cabbagerosecostumes.com
Theatrical Costume Design
"So far as my coin would stretch; and where it would not
I have used my credit."
King Henry the Fourth; I, ii - W. Shakespeare

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" <drewscph@post12.tele.dk>
To: <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Sunday, April 13, 2003 3:11 PM
Subject: [h-cost] a little danish gentlemans visit to Bath


> Hello!
> I am sorry i teased you all, last week before i went to England, my
> frontpage teased me.
> But here is a little preview of my first visit dressed in costume ever:
> http://www.my-drewscostumes.dk/readytogo.html
> I have just come home from Bath, and it was absolutely lovely, my first
> time, but not the last.
> It is midnight here in Copenhagen, and i must go to work early tomorrow,
so
> i promise to make you all a lovely webpage with lots of pictures of the
> event.
>
> Many Greetings
>
> the little danish gentleman
>
> Leif og Bjarne Drews
> www.my-drewscostumes.dk
>
> http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> h-costume@mail.indra.com
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Subject: Re: I won!!! Re: [h-cost] My new site:)
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> WOW!!!!  And you have such a perfect little delicate face for doing such
> elventhings....

Thank you, actually I was just moaning about having a teeny nose;)  I have
been resisting doing an elven costume as they are just so popular, and I
like things not quite so. But this costume was perfect. It wasn't pretty,
but was all about past glories.

michaela
http://glittersweet.com
27 and 140;)


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> wow.  that was just a fantastic costume, michaela!  I am in AWE.


Thank you:) I was about ready to throw it out two days before the
competition and even the day of it I was upset with it.

You should see my duct tape double;) She is unrecognisable as me;) She has
had a great deal of .. augmentation;) I think I'll reuse the breastplate for
a Magrat costume, where she faces the Elf Queen in Ynci the Short-Tempered's
armour;)

michaela
http://glittersweet.com


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Subject: Re: I won!!! Re: [h-cost] My new site:)
Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 14:15:05 +1200
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> Wow, that costume is just stunning! Congratulations on winning the
cosplay.
> I never thought humble felt could look so good as armor. And the rest is
> wonderful too, even with all the problems you faced.

Thank you:) I wouldn't say it was all worth it... but I'm glad I didn't give
up:)

> So, what is a cosplay exactly? I have not heard the term before.

It's a contraction of costumed play.. much like pokemon is a contraction of
pocket monsters;) It's probably a good term for the kind of costuming you
get at conventions.. as in you dress up as a character rather than create
something of your own.

It's usually used for recreation and wearing of Anime characters, as the
term originated in japan, and so when it was adopted in the west it has
those connotations. But it's really much broader than that.

michaela
http://glittersweet.com



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Subject: Re: I won!!! Re: [h-cost] My new site:)
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> CONGRATULATIONS! The costume looks great, and I find it extra-fantastic
because
> I coveted this costume and thought 'no way I don't have the faintest clue
how
> to make the breast plate without having to go and have it made by our
> weaponsmith'. And there it is, you did it!

hehe, well I supsect the original was actually cast whatsit like much of the
costumes, not metal at all anyway;)

But I had coveted this costume too from when I saw it on screen, but as it
appeared so briefly I thought.. it's not really possible.

That is until a site (no longer available) hosted three images of the
costume on a stand in. And I thought... oooohhhhh. And I was very restrained
and didn't mention it *anywhere* until 12 hours before the comp;)

michaela
http://glittersweet.com/


> Super, and congrats again, so which costume are you going to make with the
cash
> prize you won? *G*
>
> Nicole
>
>
> > lol! Very selective photo choosing actually;) As I had to do today with
the
> > photos of Galadriel;)
> > http://www.glittersweet.com/costumes/galadriel.htm
> >
> > I'm a fussy subject;)
> >
> > Wow. What a blast. I was hte only non-anime costume btw;) So I figured
there
> > was no way I could win as the judges were all anime fans. but they did
say
> > it was open to more than just anime... next time it shall be Satine from
> > Moulin Rouge;)
> >
> > michaela
> > http://www.glittersweet.com
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > h-costume mailing list
> > h-costume@mail.indra.com
> > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
>
> =====
> "Brains, not Bombs"
> http://www.stopthewar.org.uk/
>
> Nicole Kipar M.A.
> URL: http://www.kipar.org/
> Email: nicole@kipar.org
>
> __________________________________________________
> Yahoo! Plus
> For a better Internet experience
> http://www.yahoo.co.uk/btoffer
> _______________________________________________
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> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
>
>


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Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2003 23:30:43 -0400
Subject: Re: [h-cost] a little danish gentlemans visit to Bath
From: Marsha Hamilton <mjh@pearlandplume.com>
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
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Rest up, Danish Gentleman, after your long journey...then post lots and lots
of pictures!  You looked fabulous.

Marsha
--------

>... It is midnight here in Copenhagen, and i must go to work early tomorrow, so
> i promise to make you all a lovely webpage with lots of pictures of the
> event.
> 
> the little danish gentleman
> 
> Leif og Bjarne Drews

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Subject: Re: [h-cost] a little danish gentlemans visit to Bath
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Julia might be interested in focusing on your work Bjarne.  There should be
"designers" of historical costuming too that vintage clothing magazines
write about, known like we know top designers like Versace or Lacoix.  I
could see an article about your background, inspiration and work!

Lisa

P.S.  Doesn't it seem strange to everyone that Donnatella Vessace manages to
escape disparaging remarks from the press about her looks even though she
looks like a tanned cow.  Actually, I think it's nice, but such standards
should apply to everyone.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" <drewscph@post12.tele.dk>
To: <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Sunday, April 13, 2003 3:11 PM
Subject: [h-cost] a little danish gentlemans visit to Bath


> Hello!
> I am sorry i teased you all, last week before i went to England, my
> frontpage teased me.
> But here is a little preview of my first visit dressed in costume ever:
> http://www.my-drewscostumes.dk/readytogo.html
> I have just come home from Bath, and it was absolutely lovely, my first
> time, but not the last.
> It is midnight here in Copenhagen, and i must go to work early tomorrow,
so
> i promise to make you all a lovely webpage with lots of pictures of the
> event.
>
> Many Greetings
>
> the little danish gentleman
>
> Leif og Bjarne Drews
> www.my-drewscostumes.dk
>
> http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> h-costume@mail.indra.com
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I imagine that someone on this list would be interested in this.  it 
appears to be a thesis on costume, written in the 20's.  maryann

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3512778370&category=38055

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Subject: Re: [h-cost] interesting book on e-bay
Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 01:37:01 -0400
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I have seen this book before on ebay... like a couple of months ago.

Penny Ladnier
Owner, The Costume Gallery & Costume Classroom
http://www.costumegallery.com
http://www.costumeclassroom.com
http://www.onlinecostumeball.com


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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Mon Apr 14 04:22:46 2003
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Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 09:21:34 +0100 (BST)
From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Rachel?= <rachel_holliday@yahoo.co.uk>
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Subject: [h-cost] 100% silk velvet?
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Can anyone help me locate a source of 100% silk velvet.  I have a commission for some Elizabethan
goldwork embroidery just like the panels at Hardwick Hall and I need to locate some silk velvet
for the ground.  So far the only quote I have had is at £240 per metre plus carriage.  Any ideas
anyone?

Rachel

Oh and the V&A have asked me back for another talk.  So I am a really happy woman at the moment!

=====
Rachel

Tudor Bibliography
http://website.lineone.net/~reholliday/Tudor/

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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Mon Apr 14 06:43:42 2003
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Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 11:42:32 +0100
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: The Duchess <duchess@bustles-and-bows.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] 100% silk velvet?
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I've seen a great deal of discussion on the subject of films and their 
accuracy, albeit from the aspect of how correct the costumes are.  I 
therefore think that many of you may be interested in an article by Alison 
Weir that appeared in The Scotsman, a web based magazine for Scotland:

http://news.scotsman.com/features.cfm?id=424752003

It mainly talks about accuracy from a historical viewpoint but I think you 
will still find it a fascinating read, I know I did.

Lissa

PS I'm not from Scotland myself, neither do I lived there. <g>

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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Mon Apr 14 07:46:52 2003
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Interesting article - I feel this merits a new thread!

Kate Bunting
Library, University of Derby

>>> duchess@bustles-and-bows.co.uk 04/14/03 11:42am >>>
I've seen a great deal of discussion on the subject of films and their 
accuracy, albeit from the aspect of how correct the costumes are.  I 
therefore think that many of you may be interested in an article by Alison 
Weir that appeared in The Scotsman, a web based magazine for Scotland:

http://news.scotsman.com/features.cfm?id=424752003 

It mainly talks about accuracy from a historical viewpoint but I think you 
will still find it a fascinating read, I know I did.

Lissa

PS I'm not from Scotland myself, neither do I lived there. <g>

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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Mon Apr 14 09:29:47 2003
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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: The Duchess <duchess@bustles-and-bows.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Article on historical films, was 100% silk velvet?
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At 12:45 14/04/2003 +0100, you wrote:
>Interesting article - I feel this merits a new thread!

Sorry I forgot to change the subject when I took a shortcut. Many apologies 
to the members of the list.

Lissa

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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Mon Apr 14 09:32:48 2003
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Article on historical films, was 100% silkvelvet?
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Kate, I too find this article interesting re historical portraits on film.
Over the last three years I have been making a collection of some of these
very films for my costume reference library. Some of the costuming has often
been dreadful by contemporary standards; but seeing them as period pieces of
our time, one can certainly observe the adage that one tends to reinterpret
fashion in the mode of the present time.I am still looking for a 1920's film
of an Eighteenth Century story; all the court scenes presented fabulous ball
gowns sporting dropped waist lines!
   We have been entertained just recently with the latest "Napoleon" fantasy
on A&E. I believe that at least the uniforms for this saga passed the
reality test; However I was so reeling from the historicity of the story
that I couldn't concentrate on the rest of the over all view. I"I've have
read a lot about the man in fact and fiction and wonder who wrote the
script. We all have a lingering picture of the famous coronation scene and
there was nothing jarring in their version. The writers chose to exhibit a
strange animosity between the Emperor and the Pope...in a scene of the Pope
being met by Napoleon who "happens to be hunting" on the very road the
carriage is taking. The saintly gent alights to greet him and the camera
zooms in on the immaculate satin slipper stepping into the mud.
I missed the chatter after the saga last year about Victoria and Albert. I
suspect that the same writers worked on this one, too. This one had me
reeling so about the costumes (especially in the beginning scenes) that I
was already questioning the veracity of the rest of the story. This is
another Period that has been nearly a lifelong study and I couldn't figure
why they were taking such licence that wasn't,'t even artistic. With the
scholarship available and the examples of the Bronte triumphs in serious
minds both regarding costume and script, I find it hard to imagine why they
bothered. Dumbing Down I guess is the answer.
I had just about decided that I wouldn't bother to get these two films.  But
now, I can see that as teaching tools they would have some merit.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Kate M Bunting" <K.M.Bunting@derby.ac.uk>
To: <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Monday, April 14, 2003 7:45 AM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Article on historical films, was 100% silkvelvet?


> Interesting article - I feel this merits a new thread!
>
> Kate Bunting
> Library, University of Derby
>
> >>> duchess@bustles-and-bows.co.uk 04/14/03 11:42am >>>
> I've seen a great deal of discussion on the subject of films and their
> accuracy, albeit from the aspect of how correct the costumes are.  I
> therefore think that many of you may be interested in an article by Alison
> Weir that appeared in The Scotsman, a web based magazine for Scotland:
>
> http://news.scotsman.com/features.cfm?id=424752003
>
> It mainly talks about accuracy from a historical viewpoint but I think you
> will still find it a fascinating read, I know I did.
>
> Lissa
>
> PS I'm not from Scotland myself, neither do I lived there. <g>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> h-costume@mail.indra.com
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>
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Now I know why I do 16th century...
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In a message dated 4/13/2003 7:15:17 PM Central Standard Time, 
margo@margospatterns.com writes:

> Arrgh!  I'm working on my dress for the Friday Night social at Costume Con.
> I have now ripped the zipper out and replaced it 7 times. I'm sewing it
> onto two layers of duck with stretch velvet over them, and it looks awful.
> Now I'm going to try hand prickstitching it, and hope I can make it strong
> enough.  
> 
> Sheesh. Why did they ever invent these things? Give me lacing anytime.
> 

Preach on, Sistah! Zippers are scarey to me. I've never tried to install one 
in anything. Darts confuse me, too. Dagnabbity new fangled fancy-schmancy 
sewing techniques. 

Sarra Wryght
http://www.livejournal.com/users/loreleisedai/
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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Mon Apr 14 10:31:35 2003
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From: "Britt Halonen" <bhalonen@trollnet.no>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
References: <se9aad6f.000@CSV6.derby.ac.uk>
Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 16:30:32 +0200
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Subject: [h-cost] Historical films - ethnic
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2 days ago I saw the Canadian film "Atanarjuat - the fast runner". It told a
2000 year  old inuit legend , and the clothing was beautiful. I have tried
to search the internet hoping to find pictures of the costumes. I found
something, but the pictures was small. Does any of You know where to look. I
am interested because i live in a Sami area in Norway, where reindeerskin is
or was very common for winterclothes.
Regards from
Britt Marie Halonen
Lulit Gahkkorluodda 8
9520 Kautokeino, Norway.
bhalonen@trollnet.no
http://community.webshots.com/user/briha100

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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Mon Apr 14 11:31:49 2003
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From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" <drewscph@post12.tele.dk>
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Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 17:33:23 +0200
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Subject: [h-cost] Pictures from Bath 2003
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Hi
Now i have quickly made a page with pictures from Bath.
As i have made it very quickly, the pictures are not clickable.
I will make a nicer page later, when i have more time!
Hope you enjoy, some of the costumes were very nice, i think.
http://www.my-drewscostumes.dk/indexindhold.htm

Bjarne

Leif og Bjarne Drews
www.my-drewscostumes.dk

http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/


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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Mon Apr 14 11:47:41 2003
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Historical films - ethnic
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Britt Marie, I cannot answer your question directly but I may be able to put
you in the right direction. As an aside, in our travels in Canada we have
been delighted to find wonderful examples of the art and craft of indigenous
peoples even in some of the smaller regional museums. And even at Heritage
Plantation, (Massachusetts) there are examples of souvenirs brought back by
arctic explores  and such that give a flavor of the cultural development of
Inuits and others. Likewise we have seen such a display exhibited by The
National Geographic society in D.C.
One of the magazines I subscribe to is Pieceworks,  whose mission is to
uncover arts of handwork from the past and "pass them on". (They do a lot on
Scandinavian knitting, embroidery, and lace.) One article featured a
"Quiviut cap to knit".  In the bibliography the author lists "the Inuvialuit
people of Western Canada...Northwest Territories of Canada". There has been
at least one other article on their use of skins in clothing development;
unfortunately,missing from my file. I would assume if you contacted textile
authorities from that region that they would have a wealth of sources to
offer.
There is also a volume titled "To Kill the Caribou" which features
ceremonial hunting coats from the 17th-19th century. I've been plotting an
interpretation of this style of the craft as an art project for some time.
It finally looks like it will make it to the "Doing" table this year.
Good luck in your search.
Kathleen
----- Original Message -----
From: "Britt Halonen" <bhalonen@trollnet.no>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Monday, April 14, 2003 10:30 AM
Subject: [h-cost] Historical films - ethnic


> 2 days ago I saw the Canadian film "Atanarjuat - the fast runner". It told
a
> 2000 year  old inuit legend , and the clothing was beautiful. I have tried
> to search the internet hoping to find pictures of the costumes. I found
> something, but the pictures was small. Does any of You know where to look.
I
> am interested because i live in a Sami area in Norway, where reindeerskin
is
> or was very common for winterclothes.
> Regards from
> Britt Marie Halonen
> Lulit Gahkkorluodda 8
> 9520 Kautokeino, Norway.
> bhalonen@trollnet.no
> http://community.webshots.com/user/briha100
>
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
>

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I hate hate hate putting in zippers -- but with a pickstitch, I can put 
one in
by hand as fast as most folks I know can machine them.  It just
makes it a lot easier to control!


On Monday, April 14, 2003, at 06:55 AM, LoreleiMorte@aol.com wrote:

> In a message dated 4/13/2003 7:15:17 PM Central Standard Time,
> margo@margospatterns.com writes:
>
>> Arrgh!  I'm working on my dress for the Friday Night social at 
>> Costume Con.
>> I have now ripped the zipper out and replaced it 7 times. I'm sewing 
>> it
>> onto two layers of duck with stretch velvet over them, and it looks 
>> awful.
>> Now I'm going to try hand prickstitching it, and hope I can make it 
>> strong
>> enough.
>>
>> Sheesh. Why did they ever invent these things? Give me lacing anytime.
>>
>
> Preach on, Sistah! Zippers are scarey to me. I've never tried to 
> install one
> in anything. Darts confuse me, too. Dagnabbity new fangled 
> fancy-schmancy
> sewing techniques.
>
> Sarra Wryght
> http://www.livejournal.com/users/loreleisedai/
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
>

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Subject: Re: [h-cost] 100% silk velvet?
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> Can anyone help me locate a source of 100% silk velvet.  I have a
> commission for some Elizabethan goldwork embroidery just like the panels
> at Hardwick Hall and I need to locate some silk velvet for the ground.
> So far the only quote I have had is at £240 per metre plus carriage.
> Any ideas anyone?
>
> Rachel
>
> Oh and the V&A have asked me back for another talk.  So I am a really
> happy woman at the moment!
>

The only place I have ever seen 100% silk velvet was at this store:

Silk Trading Co
          1616 16th St, San Francisco, CA 94103
          Phone: (415) 621-5587

It was at least $100 per yard and when I saw it, it only came in an
white/off-white color.  I am sure it would dye beautifully, though.  The
only other silk velvet I have seen was one that was a silk/rayon blend. 
That one is available at:

Exotic Silks
          1959 Leghorn St # B, Mountain View, CA 94043
          Phone: (650) 965-7760

If you needed a contact for getting this stuff, I can assist you if you
want.  I can't do it immediately, but I could get it for you within a
month.

Good luck!

Diana




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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Mon Apr 14 13:45:47 2003
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Historical films - ethnic
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Kathleen, thank You very much for your answer. I will search for Museums in
the Arctic region amongdt other things.
Have a nice Easter Holiday..
Hilsen fra
Britt Marie Halonen
Lulit Gahkkorluodda 8
9520 Kautokeino
bhalonen@trollnet.no
http://community.webshots.com/user/briha100

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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Mon Apr 14 14:42:48 2003
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From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" <drewscph@post12.tele.dk>
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Subject: [h-cost] a little danish gent.........
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Ok, there are not words. Not in Danish or English for how beautiful the
famous suit looks on you, nor for how you consistently amaze us all with
your talents.

Wow cubed.

angela
+++++

Dear Angela.
Thankyou soo much for your fine words, well i am satisfied with the result,
but, the next suit i will make (baught silk in London, ribbed silk) will be
better fitted in the back and shoulders. When i saw pictures from the back,
i have realised, that i should not have altered the cut (making the back
pieces wider) and i must make the shoulders narrower next time. An 18th
century gentleman must not have broad shoulders.
It was absolutely wonderfull to participate in the event, and meeting all
those other people, who adores 18th century as madly as i do.
Thanks Angela...............

Leif og Bjarne Drews
www.my-drewscostumes.dk

http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/


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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Pictures from Bath 2003
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Bjarne wrote:


> Hi
> Now i have quickly made a page with pictures from Bath.


I must declare an interest here; I was the person who took some of the
photos, and I fear that my technological skills are not all they might
be. But I can tell you all that Bjarne was undoubtedly the best
dressed gentleman there, and also one of the most 18th century
gentlemen present. There is so much more to it than clothes, or
jewellery, or whatever. It is about the way people walk, and talk, and
stand, and dance, and bow, and their manners when they are doing all
of these things. And Bjarne did them right:-)

I only got out of hospital last Tuesday, having been in for almost a
fortnight, so I was not up to dancing at a Ball. And since that seemed
a most dreadful waste I fielded my daughter, Bella, as a substitute.
Fortunately, a chemise de la reine is easy to adjust by comparison
with most costumes- thanks Dawn!- though there was the mad panic to
try and make some underpinnings for her to go with it. And I forgot to
pack the stiff ribbon which was used as a waistband so we had to
improvise; silk gauze does not make a good substitute! There was also
the mad panic to try and transform Bella's poker straight hair into
something more a la mode. Not perfect, but better than nothing. And
people seemed to think that Bjarne and Bella made a delightful couple,
so it was all worth it!

There were people from Switzerland, Germany, France and Denmark, as
well as Britain, and everyone I spoke to had an absolutely  marvellous
time. So, for all you people who can make it to England for the next
event, start sewing now. You won't regret it...

best wishes
Stevie



> As i have made it very quickly, the pictures are not clickable.
> I will make a nicer page later, when i have more time!
> Hope you enjoy, some of the costumes were very nice, i think.
> http://www.my-drewscostumes.dk/indexindhold.htm


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Subject: Re: [h-cost] a little danish gentlemans visit to Bath
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Marsha Hamilton" <mjh@pearlandplume.com>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Monday, April 14, 2003 5:30 AM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] a little danish gentlemans visit to Bath


> Rest up, Danish Gentleman, after your long journey...then post lots and
lots
> of pictures!  You looked fabulous.
>
> Marsha

Dear Marsha.
I have rested a little, and posted, but i need more time to make it better
with clickable pictures.
5 days in hectic London, and 3 days in Bath, was exhausting.
It was freezing cold in London, and the hotel had shot down the heeting, so
it was a cold experience. After 2 days, they turned on the heating again, i
think they had many complaints about it.
I saw the effigy corset, and i saw the pink baroque corset.
One of the highlights was seing the real Madame Pompadour portrait at
Wallace collektion. And finding wonderfull ribbed silk for a new embroidered
suit :-) with 2 matching colours for waistcoats.
I think i want to rest the idea of making the Queen Anne dress for a while,
i have gotten addicted to 18th century suits.
Berwick Street is a wonderfull fabric street!!!
Thanks for your kind words..........

Bjarne




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----- Original Message -----
From: "Lisa Sinervo" <lisa-list@threadneedlest.com>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Monday, April 14, 2003 6:20 AM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] a little danish gentlemans visit to Bath


> Julia might be interested in focusing on your work Bjarne.  There should
be
> "designers" of historical costuming too that vintage clothing magazines
> write about, known like we know top designers like Versace or Lacoix.  I
> could see an article about your background, inspiration and work!
>
> Lisa
>
> P.S.  Doesn't it seem strange to everyone that Donnatella Vessace manages
to
> escape disparaging remarks from the press about her looks even though she
> looks like a tanned cow.  Actually, I think it's nice, but such standards
> should apply to everyone.

Hi
Julia has asked me if i would be interresting in an artikle about my work,
and i have accepted.  Sometime in the future.
Thanks for your wonderfull words.

Bjarne
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" <drewscph@post12.tele.dk>
> To: <h-costume@indra.com>
> Sent: Sunday, April 13, 2003 3:11 PM
> Subject: [h-cost] a little danish gentlemans visit to Bath
>
>
> > Hello!
> > I am sorry i teased you all, last week before i went to England, my
> > frontpage teased me.
> > But here is a little preview of my first visit dressed in costume ever:
> > http://www.my-drewscostumes.dk/readytogo.html
> > I have just come home from Bath, and it was absolutely lovely, my first
> > time, but not the last.
> > It is midnight here in Copenhagen, and i must go to work early tomorrow,
> so
> > i promise to make you all a lovely webpage with lots of pictures of the
> > event.
> >
> > Many Greetings
> >
> > the little danish gentleman
> >
> > Leif og Bjarne Drews
> > www.my-drewscostumes.dk
> >
> > http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > h-costume mailing list
> > h-costume@mail.indra.com
> > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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>


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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Mon Apr 14 15:08:46 2003
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Pictures from Bath 2003
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What an elegant crowd in such elegant surroundings.  And you looked the
best of the lot!

Lalah
Never give up, Never surrender
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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Mon Apr 14 15:21:50 2003
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From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" <drewscph@post12.tele.dk>
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Pictures from Bath 2003
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Dear Lalah
Oh thankyou to you, very nice said. It was a little bad, that i had no more
space in my digital camera, but spending five days in London, i simply had
to make some photos. There were many more people than you see here, and
belive me, many many beautifull costumes. I think there must have been more
than 100 people there.
It was unforgetable...........

Bjarne


Leif og Bjarne Drews
www.my-drewscostumes.dk

http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/
----- Original Message -----
From: <catpurson@juno.com>
To: <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Monday, April 14, 2003 9:02 PM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Pictures from Bath 2003


> What an elegant crowd in such elegant surroundings.  And you looked the
> best of the lot!
>
> Lalah
> Never give up, Never surrender
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
>


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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Mon Apr 14 16:54:40 2003
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        Isn't it always the way?  You go off thinking you have more than
enough film or cards for a digital camera and then discover there are
just way too many things to take pictures of.  At least you did get some
good shots and they sure look like you were having fun.  Are you going to
put up pictures of your London adventures too?

Lalah
Never give up, Never surrender
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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Mon Apr 14 18:27:45 2003
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From: Claire Clarke <Lady_Angharad@bigpond.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Alison Weir? was Article on historical films,
 was 100% silkvelvet?
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Kate M Bunting wrote:

> Interesting article - I feel this merits a new thread!
>
>

Has anyone read any of Alison Weir's books? Is she any good? I
was quite interested to read in that article that she was planning a
book on Isabella the She-Wolf of France. I've had an interest in
her for a long time, but there doesn't seem to be much in the way
of information around about her apart from 'Geez everyone hated
her sooooo much'. Definitely someone whose historical character
needs reclaiming. Then again maybe she really was very nasty.
But the other books I've seen in the shop by Alison Weir have
been very expensive, and I wouldn't like to throw away that
cash and have a stinker on my hands.

Claire


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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Mon Apr 14 19:10:35 2003
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Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 18:16:40 -0500
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Sheryl Nance-Durst <sherylnd@kc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Now I know why I do 16th century...
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For my own Friday night social dress, I put in my first hand-picked
zipper --- I'm never putting one in by machine again!
Putting it in by hand was so much easier and less stressful!
There was an article recently in Threads magazine on hand-picked
zippers that made it look easy - and it is.

Sheryl Nance-Durst

At 09:55 AM 4/14/03 -0400, you wrote:
>In a message dated 4/13/2003 7:15:17 PM Central Standard Time,
>margo@margospatterns.com writes:
>
> > Arrgh!  I'm working on my dress for the Friday Night social at Costume Con.
> > I have now ripped the zipper out and replaced it 7 times. I'm sewing it
> > onto two layers of duck with stretch velvet over them, and it looks awful.
> > Now I'm going to try hand prickstitching it, and hope I can make it strong
> > enough.
> >
> > Sheesh. Why did they ever invent these things? Give me lacing anytime.
> >
>
>Preach on, Sistah! Zippers are scarey to me. I've never tried to install one
>in anything. Darts confuse me, too. Dagnabbity new fangled fancy-schmancy
>sewing techniques.


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Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 19:07:36 -0500 (CDT)
From: Robin Netherton <robin@shell.nightowl.net>
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Now I know why I do 16th century...
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On Mon, 14 Apr 2003, Sheryl Nance-Durst wrote:

> For my own Friday night social dress, I put in my first hand-picked
> zipper --- I'm never putting one in by machine again! Putting it in by
> hand was so much easier and less stressful! There was an article
> recently in Threads magazine on hand-picked zippers that made it look
> easy - and it is.

I must be *so* ignorant of modern techniques. What does "hand-picked"
mean? To me, "picking" a seam means taking it out. I've hand-sewn zippers
before, though. What's the difference?

--Robin

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it means you are using a "pick stitch", which is a backstitch with only
a short "pick" of thread showing, instead of a more continuous line.


On Monday, April 14, 2003, at 05:07 PM, Robin Netherton wrote:

>
> On Mon, 14 Apr 2003, Sheryl Nance-Durst wrote:
>
>> For my own Friday night social dress, I put in my first hand-picked
>> zipper --- I'm never putting one in by machine again! Putting it in by
>> hand was so much easier and less stressful! There was an article
>> recently in Threads magazine on hand-picked zippers that made it look
>> easy - and it is.
>
> I must be *so* ignorant of modern techniques. What does "hand-picked"
> mean? To me, "picking" a seam means taking it out. I've hand-sewn 
> zippers
> before, though. What's the difference?
>
> --Robin
>
> _______________________________________________
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Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 17:36:33 -0700
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Alison Weir? was Article on historical films, was 100%
	silkvelvet?
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I've read three of her books - she's fantastic, IMO.  She also
reads a lot of her material from Elizabeth I on the DVD (it's a
special commentary feature) of the BBC miniseries
Elizabeth R.


On Tuesday, April 15, 2003, at 08:29 AM, Claire Clarke wrote:

>
>
> Kate M Bunting wrote:
>
>> Interesting article - I feel this merits a new thread!
>>
>>
>
> Has anyone read any of Alison Weir's books? Is she any good? I
> was quite interested to read in that article that she was planning a
> book on Isabella the She-Wolf of France. I've had an interest in
> her for a long time, but there doesn't seem to be much in the way
> of information around about her apart from 'Geez everyone hated
> her sooooo much'. Definitely someone whose historical character
> needs reclaiming. Then again maybe she really was very nasty.
> But the other books I've seen in the shop by Alison Weir have
> been very expensive, and I wouldn't like to throw away that
> cash and have a stinker on my hands.
>
> Claire
>
>
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Well right, of course.  Silly me!

;)
----- Original Message -----
From: "Sue Clemenger" <mooncat@in-tch.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: Old Navy


> Because it's still more okay to be a larger man that it is to be a
> larger woman....
> --sue
>
> Kendra Van Cleave wrote:
> >
> > What drives me crazy about the limited sizing is that stores like J.
Crew
> > will carry a men's size up to chest 50", but women's sizes only up to
bust
> > 41".  While all of us who are well-endowed, men and women, have problems
> > finding clothes that fit, I STILL don't understand why it's okay to
carry
> > larger men's sizes than women's.

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"Lloyd Mitchell" <rmitchell@washjeff.edu> wrote:
[...]
> I missed the chatter after the saga last year about Victoria and Albert. I
> suspect that the same writers worked on this one, too. This one had me
> reeling so about the costumes (especially in the beginning scenes) that I
> was already questioning the veracity of the rest of the story. This is
> another Period that has been nearly a lifelong study and I couldn't figure
> why they were taking such licence that wasn't,'t even artistic. With the
> scholarship available and the examples of the Bronte triumphs in serious
> minds both regarding costume and script, I find it hard to imagine why they
> bothered. Dumbing Down I guess is the answer.

On the other hand, "Mrs.Brown" was excellent.  The script was not dumbed
down, and the costuming was very carefully copied from photos of Victoria.
There are two costumes in particular that I _have_ copies of the photos
they must have used for the models.  

[Sigh, was told at my wedding that I looked like a "young and pretty Queen
Victoria.  Now I've reached the stage where I'm nearly as wide as I am tall.]
Lee M.Thompson-Herbert        lee@retro.com	      KoX 1995, SP4
Head Muso, White Rats Morris, Faultline Morris
Member, Knights of Xenu (1995).  Chaos Monger and Jill of All Trades.
"A head-on collision between Morticia Adams and Martha Stewart"
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Agreed re: Alison Weir -- she's one of my favorite historians.  While she
leans just a wee bit towards the pop side of history, this makes her books
really engaging reading.  Her books on the Tudors (most notably _The Six
Wives of Henry VIII_, _The Children of Henry VIII_, and _The Life of
Elizabeth I_) are just fabulous.  I'm excited to see her working on Mary
Queen of Scots (the one bio I read of her was quite boring -- I'm sure Weir
will pique my interest) and Isabella of France.

Re: historical films -- I think that all of the things we're discussing (and
have discussed previously) are true of the film industry (and media?) as a
whole.  Everything is being dumbed down.  Case in point:  Ben Affleck and
Jennifer Lopez are in talks to star in a remake of Casablanca.  What could
be more horrible?  Anyway, studios want guaranteed money makers... they
don't want to risk money on anything that might have a (relatively) smaller,
targeted audience.

And while I do have a weak spot for cheesy historical drama, and (for
example) I thought the Cate Blanchett film Elizabeth was a good
characterization even though they got everything else wrong, I don't think
that they actually NEED to rewrite the original history.  I like Weir's
quote in the article, "History, as they say, is stranger than fiction, and I
see no need to embellish or alter it in the essential..."  Too true!

- Kendra

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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Article on historical films, was 100% silkvelvet?
Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 20:51:03 -0400
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"Mrs Brown" indeed is a different story. I did not know that the costumes
were made from photos,but I am not surprised. The title escapes me, but I
also am fond of the Helen Hayes portrayal of Victoria.From her earlier
letters I think one can see that she did get "amused" once in a while.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Thompson-Herbert" <lee@retro.com>
To: <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Monday, April 14, 2003 9:07 PM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Article on historical films, was 100% silkvelvet?


>
> "Lloyd Mitchell" <rmitchell@washjeff.edu> wrote:
> [...]
> > I missed the chatter after the saga last year about Victoria and Albert.
I
> > suspect that the same writers worked on this one, too. This one had me
> > reeling so about the costumes (especially in the beginning scenes) that
I
> > was already questioning the veracity of the rest of the story. This is
> > another Period that has been nearly a lifelong study and I couldn't
figure
> > why they were taking such licence that wasn't,'t even artistic. With the
> > scholarship available and the examples of the Bronte triumphs in serious
> > minds both regarding costume and script, I find it hard to imagine why
they
> > bothered. Dumbing Down I guess is the answer.
>
> On the other hand, "Mrs.Brown" was excellent.  The script was not dumbed
> down, and the costuming was very carefully copied from photos of Victoria.
> There are two costumes in particular that I _have_ copies of the photos
> they must have used for the models.
>
> [Sigh, was told at my wedding that I looked like a "young and pretty Queen
> Victoria.  Now I've reached the stage where I'm nearly as wide as I am
tall.]
> Lee M.Thompson-Herbert        lee@retro.com       KoX 1995, SP4
> Head Muso, White Rats Morris, Faultline Morris
> Member, Knights of Xenu (1995).  Chaos Monger and Jill of All Trades.
> "A head-on collision between Morticia Adams and Martha Stewart"
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] interesting book on e-bay
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I keep getting "The document contains no data: - did they take it down?

Heather L

MaryAnn Jones wrote:

> I imagine that someone on this list would be interested in this.  it 
> appears to be a thesis on costume, written in the 20's.  maryann
>
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3512778370&category=38055
>
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Hi, All. Britt, I don't know of any European museums specifically, although many
probably have a few Native American items, but there is a Museum of the American
Indian which is part of the Smithsonian Institution here in the US. A friend of
mine is the illustrator for their current volumes on Native American culture (it
is a massive undertaking, apparently). I will ask him if the volume on Inuit
peoples has come out, and where I can find references to the clothing. I am
pretty sure one of the museums in New York city has a few sets of the sealskin
clothing (Ethnographic section of Natural History Museum?), and there are some
archaeological examples. Let me know if you want this info, and I'll send a
note. Mike T.



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Subject: Re: [h-cost] 100% silk velvet?
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These guys say they occasionally get it.  I sent them a quick email 
asking if they have any cause i'm curious too...

Silk Road: silk velvet and silk velvet burnout 
<http://www.srfabrics.com/silks/velvet.htm>----- <null>

Heather L

dch@inreach.com wrote:

>>Can anyone help me locate a source of 100% silk velvet.  I have a
>>commission for some Elizabethan goldwork embroidery just like the panels
>>at Hardwick Hall and I need to locate some silk velvet for the ground.
>>So far the only quote I have had is at £240 per metre plus carriage.
>>Any ideas anyone?
>>
>>Rachel
>>
>>Oh and the V&A have asked me back for another talk.  So I am a really
>>happy woman at the moment!
>>
>>    
>>
>
>The only place I have ever seen 100% silk velvet was at this store:
>
>Silk Trading Co
>          1616 16th St, San Francisco, CA 94103
>          Phone: (415) 621-5587
>
>It was at least $100 per yard and when I saw it, it only came in an
>white/off-white color.  I am sure it would dye beautifully, though.  The
>only other silk velvet I have seen was one that was a silk/rayon blend. 
>That one is available at:
>
>Exotic Silks
>          1959 Leghorn St # B, Mountain View, CA 94043
>          Phone: (650) 965-7760
>
>If you needed a contact for getting this stuff, I can assist you if you
>want.  I can't do it immediately, but I could get it for you within a
>month.
>
>Good luck!
>
>Diana
>
>
>
>
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>  
>

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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Now I know why I do 16th century...
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 14:30:53 +1200
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> it means you are using a "pick stitch", which is a backstitch with only
> a short "pick" of thread showing, instead of a more continuous line.

I thought that was prick stitch? Oh nope...

http://www.sewing.org/html/ls-handsewing2.html In the half back stitch
section it does specifically refer to a pick stitch for zippers.

OK so I'm going to check what a prick stitch is;)

Oh... seems to be the same thing....
http://www.google.co.nz/search?q=cache:z3Vlzl_Yg2sC:www.sewing.org/files/GL-
velvet.pdf+%22prick+stitch%22&hl=en&ie=UTF-8
(that's the html view of the pdf file.. if it doesn't work:

Working from the right side of the garment, stitch thezipper in place with a
tiny "prick:" stitch. This is a tinybackstitch (picking one or two threads)
on the right sideof the garment. A longer, reinforced stitch is formed onthe
inside.A google search turned up 21 instances of prick stitch and 105
instances of pick stitch.. mind you most oth those were not about sewing;)
It just happens that "pick stitch" is quite common in a sentance.. as in
pick the stictch.. or who did Lilo pick?Stitch...;)

michaela
http://glittersweet.com



> >> For my own Friday night social dress, I put in my first hand-picked
> >> zipper --- I'm never putting one in by machine again! Putting it in by
> >> hand was so much easier and less stressful! There was an article
> >> recently in Threads magazine on hand-picked zippers that made it look
> >> easy - and it is.
> >
> > I must be *so* ignorant of modern techniques. What does "hand-picked"
> > mean? To me, "picking" a seam means taking it out. I've hand-sewn
> > zippers
> > before, though. What's the difference?
> >
> > --Robin
> >
> > _______________________________________________
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> > h-costume@mail.indra.com
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In a message dated 4/14/03 10:49:59 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
herself-the-elf@rogers.com writes:

> Designer Fabrics carries 100% silk velvet for approx. $140/yard
> (Canadian)....way too expensive for me.  I've seen a couple colours,
> including midnight blue.
> 
> www.designerfabrics.to

I covet their fabric.  Can't afford it, but I covet it!  Someone on ebay was 
supposedly offering 10 yards of 100% silk velvet for $150, but I didn't trust 
them...really, more than $2000 worth of fabric with a BIN price of $150?

Christine
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	<41224.162.119.64.111.1050339926.squirrel@webmail.inreach.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] 100% silk velvet?
Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 22:47:59 -0400
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Designer Fabrics carries 100% silk velvet for approx. $140/yard
(Canadian)....way too expensive for me.  I've seen a couple colours,
including midnight blue.

www.designerfabrics.to

-- Maral

----- Original Message -----
From: <dch@inreach.com>
To: <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Monday, April 14, 2003 1:05 PM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] 100% silk velvet?


> > Can anyone help me locate a source of 100% silk velvet.  I have a
> > commission for some Elizabethan goldwork embroidery just like the panels
> > at Hardwick Hall and I need to locate some silk velvet for the ground.
> > So far the only quote I have had is at £240 per metre plus carriage.
> > Any ideas anyone?
> >
> > Rachel
> >
> > Oh and the V&A have asked me back for another talk.  So I am a really
> > happy woman at the moment!
> >
>
> The only place I have ever seen 100% silk velvet was at this store:
>
> Silk Trading Co
>           1616 16th St, San Francisco, CA 94103
>           Phone: (415) 621-5587
>
> It was at least $100 per yard and when I saw it, it only came in an
> white/off-white color.  I am sure it would dye beautifully, though.  The
> only other silk velvet I have seen was one that was a silk/rayon blend.
> That one is available at:
>
> Exotic Silks
>           1959 Leghorn St # B, Mountain View, CA 94043
>           Phone: (650) 965-7760
>
> If you needed a contact for getting this stuff, I can assist you if you
> want.  I can't do it immediately, but I could get it for you within a
> month.
>
> Good luck!
>
> Diana
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> h-costume@mail.indra.com
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Historical films - ethnic
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I do not know if this might help, I have not looked at all of it but I
remember seeing inuit clothing at the Arkticum museum in Finland.

http://g.wulles.free.fr/capnord/clinsdoeil/pages/museesa.htm

:)
jonica

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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Alison Weir? was Article on historical films, 
 was100%silkvelvet?
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Kendra Van Cleave wrote:

> And while I do have a weak spot for cheesy historical drama, and (for
> example) I thought the Cate Blanchett film Elizabeth was a good
> characterization even though they got everything else wrong, I don't think
> that they actually NEED to rewrite the original history.  I like Weir's
> quote in the article, "History, as they say, is stranger than fiction, and I
> see no need to embellish or alter it in the essential..."  Too true!

I saved this quote from TV Guide:

If you read any script for TV or film that calls itself historical, no
more than 40 percent of it is real.  The rest is made-up crap.  --
Richard Dreyfuss


--Charlene

-- 
Music is now so foolish that I am amazed.  Everything that is wrong is
permitted, and no attention is paid to what the old generation wrote as
composition.  -- Samuel Scheidt (1651)
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Came up just fine for me.

--Charlene

-- 
Music is now so foolish that I am amazed.  Everything that is wrong is
permitted, and no attention is paid to what the old generation wrote as
composition.  -- Samuel Scheidt (1651)
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Many thanks to everybody who answered me on this. I have got many ideas on
how and where to search. I also found a review of a book that looks
interesting: "Sinews of Survival - The living legacy of Inuit Clothing" by
Betty Kobayashi Issenman. She has been working with research and catalogued
the Arctic clothing collections at the McCord museum in Montreal.
Hilsen fra
Britt Marie Halonen
Lulit Gahkkorluodda 8
9520 Kautokeino, Norway
bhalonen@trollnet.no
http://community.webshots.com/user/briha100

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Subject: Re: [h-cost] interesting book on e-bay
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hum... puter must have been cranky.  It worked today...

Wow, a little hard on the ole' budget!

HL

Charlene Charette wrote:

>Came up just fine for me.
>
>--Charlene
>
>  
>

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From: KATHRYN WOLTERS <albrakat7@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] a little danish gentlemans visit to Bath
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
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Bjarne--what wonderful pictures! Thanks so very much for sharing with us. There were really impressive men's ensembles--but I thought yours was the handsomest!Albra

Bjarne og Leif Drews <drewscph@post12.tele.dk> wrote:
----- Original Message -----
From: "Marsha Hamilton" 
To: "Historical Costume" 
Sent: Monday, April 14, 2003 5:30 AM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] a little danish gentlemans visit to Bath


> Rest up, Danish Gentleman, after your long journey...then post lots and
lots
> of pictures! You looked fabulous.
>
> Marsha

Dear Marsha.
I have rested a little, and posted, but i need more time to make it better
with clickable pictures.
5 days in hectic London, and 3 days in Bath, was exhausting.
It was freezing cold in London, and the hotel had shot down the heeting, so
it was a cold experience. After 2 days, they turned on the heating again, i
think they had many complaints about it.
I saw the effigy corset, and i saw the pink baroque corset.
One of the highlights was seing the real Madame Pompadour portrait at
Wallace collektion. And finding wonderfull ribbed silk for a new embroidered
suit :-) with 2 matching colours for waistcoats.
I think i want to rest the idea of making the Queen Anne dress for a while,
i have gotten addicted to 18th century suits.
Berwick Street is a wonderfull fabric street!!!
Thanks for your kind words..........

Bjarne




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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Tue Apr 15 02:44:12 2003
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	<se9aad6f.000@CSV6.derby.ac.uk><01e301c30292$6a035570$0b01a8c0@brittdspp63nqs>
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Subject: [h-cost] (OT) Henslowe scan?
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Just downloaded a couple of OCR programs.  Would it be a violation of 
ethics if someone could e me a fairly hi-res scan of a page of Henslowe 
so I can try out that earlier suggestion I had for OCR scanning it? 

Please email me offlist if you're interested

BTW...  I have a 14-day trial of a *handwriting* OCR thingie.  Probably 
wouldn't work on the handwritten Henslowe, but whattheheck, why not 
"acid-test" it :-)   This is experimental - I wanna play with my new toy!

Heather L

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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Alison Weir? was Article on historical films, was 100%
	silkvelvet?
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>
> Has anyone read any of Alison Weir's books? Is she any good?

Well, she decided that Richard III did kill the Princes in the Tower, and
that is definitely not true - as any good ricardian will tell you. So I have
doubts on her scholarship.   Nice picture books though.  Struck me as pop
history more then solid history. I like Antonia Fraser better.

Susan

Who would rather gossip about people who have been dead for centuries then
anyone currently alive.  Cept the neighbors.

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From: =?iso-8859-1?q?N=20Kipar?= <nicolas_fouquet@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Pictures from Bath 2003
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Good Grief! You can tell when you have done too much re-enactment, too much
living history, too long on the internet, too many costume related anythings
when you know almost _every_ face on those photos! Glad I didn't go *grins* too
many ghosts, and some in cupboards.

However, Bjarne, you look FANTASTIC!!!! and I agree, you look just like coming
out of a painting and are the best dressed, and truest gentleman of them all.

Lovely, lovely, lovely Bjarne. It was time that YOU went in a gorgeous
creation, and not just all us ladies that you have outfitted.

Nicole

--- Bjarne og Leif Drews <drewscph@post12.tele.dk> wrote: > Hi
> Now i have quickly made a page with pictures from Bath.
> As i have made it very quickly, the pictures are not clickable.
> I will make a nicer page later, when i have more time!
> Hope you enjoy, some of the costumes were very nice, i think.
> http://www.my-drewscostumes.dk/indexindhold.htm
> 
> Bjarne
> 
> Leif og Bjarne Drews
> www.my-drewscostumes.dk
> 
> http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume 

=====
"Brains, not Bombs"
http://www.stopthewar.org.uk/

Nicole Kipar M.A.
URL: http://www.kipar.org/
Email: nicole@kipar.org

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To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Pictures from Bath 2003
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Dear Nicole.
Thanks a lot for your lovely praise. Coming from you, makes me even happier.
I have got quite addicted now, and i want to go to Sweden this autumn, and
Bath again next year.
Many happy greetings to you,

Bjarne

Leif og Bjarne Drews
www.my-drewscostumes.dk

http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/
----- Original Message -----
From: "N Kipar" <nicolas_fouquet@yahoo.com>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 15, 2003 9:41 AM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Pictures from Bath 2003


> Good Grief! You can tell when you have done too much re-enactment, too
much
> living history, too long on the internet, too many costume related
anythings
> when you know almost _every_ face on those photos! Glad I didn't go
*grins* too
> many ghosts, and some in cupboards.
>
> However, Bjarne, you look FANTASTIC!!!! and I agree, you look just like
coming
> out of a painting and are the best dressed, and truest gentleman of them
all.
>
> Lovely, lovely, lovely Bjarne. It was time that YOU went in a gorgeous
> creation, and not just all us ladies that you have outfitted.
>
> Nicole
>
> --- Bjarne og Leif Drews <drewscph@post12.tele.dk> wrote: > Hi
> > Now i have quickly made a page with pictures from Bath.
> > As i have made it very quickly, the pictures are not clickable.
> > I will make a nicer page later, when i have more time!
> > Hope you enjoy, some of the costumes were very nice, i think.
> > http://www.my-drewscostumes.dk/indexindhold.htm
> >
> > Bjarne
> >
> > Leif og Bjarne Drews
> > www.my-drewscostumes.dk
> >
> > http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > h-costume mailing list
> > h-costume@mail.indra.com
> > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
>
> =====
> "Brains, not Bombs"
> http://www.stopthewar.org.uk/
>
> Nicole Kipar M.A.
> URL: http://www.kipar.org/
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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Tue Apr 15 10:18:06 2003
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From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" <drewscph@post12.tele.dk>
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Subject: [h-cost] Effigy corset of Westminster Abbey
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Hello,
I saw the effigy corset in Westminster Abbey and i looked very close to it
from all angels.
And i would say, as it is a real Elizabethan corset, that it could have ben
designed to go with a wheel farthingale.
The long busked frontpiece, would ideally lye on top of the hoop and the
eylet holes on top of all the tabs, would secure the wheel. The busk would
press down the hoop so that it gets the fashionable tilt.
Another hint, that the wheelfarthingale could be a real thing!!!

Bjarne


Leif og Bjarne Drews
www.my-drewscostumes.dk

http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/


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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Tue Apr 15 10:39:29 2003
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From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" <drewscph@post12.tele.dk>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
References: <se9aad6f.000@CSV6.derby.ac.uk> <3E9C255D.4006396C@bigpond.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Alison Weir? was Article on historical films, was 100%
	silkvelvet?
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 16:41:01 +0200
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Hi,

At V&A i baught a book about Elizabeth I called: In public and in private
Elizabeth I and her world, written by Susan Watkins. It is richly
illustrated and very nice.
Then V&A had a large heavy heavy book : Design & The Decorative Arts by
Michael Snodin and John Styles, full of all the lovely things they have in
the museum, including pictures of costumes. Then i baught Embroidery in
Britain from 1200 to 1750. It was a pitty they did not have the book that
covers the rest of time, or this is perhaps not finished yeat? dont know.
And Gardening with Silk and Gold, A History Of Gardens In Embroidery by
Thomasina Beck. At Berwick Street i baught silk in Cloth House nr. 98
Berwick Street, so i was a little worried about the weight of my trunk, when
i was going back, but Leif didnt have as much as i did, so it went ok.

Leif og Bjarne Drews
www.my-drewscostumes.dk

http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/
----- Original Message -----
From: "Claire Clarke" <Lady_Angharad@bigpond.com>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 15, 2003 5:29 PM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Alison Weir? was Article on historical films, was 100%
silkvelvet?


>
>
> Kate M Bunting wrote:
>
> > Interesting article - I feel this merits a new thread!
> >
> >
>
> Has anyone read any of Alison Weir's books? Is she any good? I
> was quite interested to read in that article that she was planning a
> book on Isabella the She-Wolf of France. I've had an interest in
> her for a long time, but there doesn't seem to be much in the way
> of information around about her apart from 'Geez everyone hated
> her sooooo much'. Definitely someone whose historical character
> needs reclaiming. Then again maybe she really was very nasty.
> But the other books I've seen in the shop by Alison Weir have
> been very expensive, and I wouldn't like to throw away that
> cash and have a stinker on my hands.
>
> Claire
>
>
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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Tue Apr 15 11:58:05 2003
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Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 08:55:50 -0700
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> I saw the effigy corset in Westminster Abbey and i looked very close
> to it from all angels. And i would say, as it is a real Elizabethan
> corset, that it could have ben designed to go with a wheel
> farthingale. The long busked frontpiece, would ideally lye on top of
> the hoop and the eylet holes on top of all the tabs, would secure the
> wheel. The busk would press down the hoop so that it gets the
> fashionable tilt. Another hint, that the wheelfarthingale could be a
> real thing!!!

But they could also be used to secure a petticoat (just like similar 
ones on mens doublets secure the breeches.)

So, it's really not evidence in either direction for a wheel 
farthingale.

Kat
<kat@redtrollforge.com>


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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Tue Apr 15 15:19:20 2003
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From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" <drewscph@post12.tele.dk>
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But they could also be used to secure a petticoat (just like similar
ones on mens doublets secure the breeches.)

So, it's really not evidence in either direction for a wheel
farthingale.

Kat
<kat@redtrollforge.com>

This is true, and you are right it can never be proved.
But i say that i have no doubts about it any more. Also some wooden figures
i saw inside the Abbey convinsed me about this, because i saw traces of
sharp edges.
And i would say it would not be nescesary to secure skirts to the corset,
when it has the waist at its natural place. Why should this be nescesary?
The breeches you refer to, isnt that a little later, when the men wore their
trousers higher?

Bjarne

Leif og Bjarne Drews
www.my-drewscostumes.dk

http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/


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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Tue Apr 15 16:49:48 2003
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Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 13:46:53 -0700
From: Elizabeth Young <lizyoung@fenris.net>
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Subject: [h-cost] question about gabardine
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I gathered the following information about gabardine from the websites 
given below.

"GABARDINE: A firm, durable, warp-faced cloth, showing a
decided twill line, usually a 45° or 63° right-hand twill."
http://www.vectranfiber.com/PDF/fiberdictionaryG.pdf.

"A Tightly Woven Durable Twill, Usually 2x2 Right Handed, With A 
Distinct Twill Line"
http://www.fibre2fashion.com/GLOSSARY/glossary7.htm

Is this a good def. of gabardine (for instance, worsted wool gabardine 
as sold in fabric stores)?
Can I assume that this weave of fabric existed in 16th century Italy? 
(in wool, of course)

thanks
liz young




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Hi.
This is right, and i took some photos there. But i was very very disapointed
because it was the same costumes on display as last time, wich was about 5
years ago.
Why in heavens name, dont they take out some new costumes once in a while?
now where they are so proud about being the outstanding museum in the world
with one of the largest collections?
It was a disapointment to go there!

Leif og Bjarne Drews
www.my-drewscostumes.dk

http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/
----- Original Message -----
From: <Kitsune242@aol.com>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2003 11:35 AM
Subject: [h-cost] More from England


> For those of you interested, The Costume Museum at Bath has started
allowing photography.
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From: Melanie Schuessler <melanie@faucet.net>
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] effigy corset at Westminster Abbey
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Bjarne og Leif Drews wrote:
> 
> And i would say it would not be nescesary to secure skirts to the corset,
> when it has the waist at its natural place. Why should this be nescesary?

I will not even begin to discuss the wheel farthingale, but I can speak
to the convenience of having one's skirts tied to one's corset.  In my
case, my conical or Spanish farthingale is tied to my corset, and the
skirts of all the layers above are thus supported.  Without that, the
weight of the skirts makes the farthingale itself slide down just a bit
and thus all that weight presses down on my hips and lower back, which
is very uncomfortable and gave me back pain.  I would like to note that
I have a well-defined waist with a definite flare to the hips, so it's
not a problem of body structure.

Just my personal experience,
Melanie Schuessler
http://www.faucet.net/costume
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From: Robin Netherton <robin@shell.nightowl.net>
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] effigy corset at Westminster Abbey
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On Tue, 15 Apr 2003, Melanie Schuessler wrote:

> Bjarne og Leif Drews wrote:
> > 
> > And i would say it would not be nescesary to secure skirts to the corset,
> > when it has the waist at its natural place. Why should this be nescesary?
> 
> I will not even begin to discuss the wheel farthingale, but I can speak
> to the convenience of having one's skirts tied to one's corset.  In my
> case, my conical or Spanish farthingale is tied to my corset, and the
> skirts of all the layers above are thus supported.

I also attach my large, roll-shaped French farthingale to my corset. The
length and placement of the ties helps me adjust the tilt to my preference
and comfort, and there's no question of whether the farthingale will slide
or twist to one side or another. This may not be necessary with smaller or
different-shaped rolls, but for the structured one I have that produces a
"wheel" silhouette, it definitely helps..

(My skirt is not attached to the corset, but I have since realized it
would work better if it were attached to something -- in my case, probably
the bodice -- or just sewn in one with the bodice.)

There's certainly some structure, called a French farthingale, that
creates the wheel-shape. Some of us disagree about what that structure
might be, but I don't think anyone would disagree that it's probably
attached to the corset. So, I don't think the presence of tabs or eyelets
tells us much about what the farthingale looks like or how it is made,
only that there was something there.

--Robin


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From: "Karen Root" <smonster@optusnet.com.au>
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Subject: [h-cost] A Titanic Evening
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 08:42:12 +1000
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For anyone who isn't on LJ Dressdiaries, I wore my titanic dress on the
weekend.  To me it looks rather bland because I know how much bead work
there is to finish, but other than that I'm happy with the result (just my
hair wouldn't do what it was told to).  Photos can be seen on my webpage.

Karen
-----
www.members.optusnet.com.au/smonster/


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Subject: [h-cost] The Possibilities of a Social (Dress)
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So, the silk for my Friday Social dress finally arrived today.  I need to 
pleat it (Mariano Fortuny style, wee!), cut out the pieces, make it, and hem 
it, all by 4am on Friday so that I can get on the plane and wear it on Friday 
night.  Of course, if the hem isn't completely done I won't cry, since I'll 
have two hours before programming starts to finish it <g>
And, fortunately for my sanity...no zipper!  It's a slip-on.  My parents want 
me to give myself a break...but I told them that my "break" is CostumeCon, 
where I get to wear all my fun costumes!

Christine
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From: kat@grendal.rain.com
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Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 16:49:43 -0700
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] effigy corset at Westminster Abbey
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> This is true, and you are right it can never be proved.
> But i say that i have no doubts about it any more. Also some wooden
> figures i saw inside the Abbey convinsed me about this, because i saw
> traces of sharp edges. And i would say it would not be nescesary to
> secure skirts to the corset, when it has the waist at its natural
> place. Why should this be nescesary? The breeches you refer to, isnt
> that a little later, when the men wore their trousers higher?

Precisely the same time period as the effigy corset (and even before 
and after).

One of the problems with skirts (and doublets) is that they tend to 
separate at the waist if they are not secured. You get something 
known as "gaposis" (play on words because of the gap between them, 
where the shirt or skin are seen in too large a quantity.) They don't 
have to be high waisted for it to happen. (Consider the ultimate 
modern gaposis: plumbers crack.)

There are ways of doing those skirts (which definitely existed) the 
only question being "what was underneath? bolster or boned wheel?" A 
good argument can be made for both and can end up with exactly the 
same shapes as what you see on the various tomb sculptures.

Kat
<kat@redtrollforge.com>


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At 1:46 PM -0700 4/15/03, Elizabeth Young wrote:
>I gathered the following information about gabardine from the 
>websites given below.
>
>"GABARDINE: A firm, durable, warp-faced cloth, showing a
>decided twill line, usually a 45° or 63° right-hand twill."
>http://www.vectranfiber.com/PDF/fiberdictionaryG.pdf.
>
>"A Tightly Woven Durable Twill, Usually 2x2 Right Handed, With A 
>Distinct Twill Line"
>http://www.fibre2fashion.com/GLOSSARY/glossary7.htm
>
>Is this a good def. of gabardine (for instance, worsted wool 
>gabardine as sold in fabric stores)?
>Can I assume that this weave of fabric existed in 16th century 
>Italy? (in wool, of course)

I tend to feel that the extremely smooth tight twist of the yarn in 
modern gabardines is likely to be significantly different from period 
twills, but I confess that this is a bit more of a gut-level esthetic 
judgement than a well-researched professional opinion.

Heather
-- 
*****
Heather Rose Jones
hrjones@socrates.berkeley.edu
*****

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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Alison Weir? was Article on historical films, was 
 100%silkvelvet?
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<G> Isn't that what spouses are for, though?
--sue, who had to schlepp her own book-crammed suitcases....

Bjarne og Leif Drews wrote:
> 
>At Berwick Street i baught silk in Cloth House nr. 98
> Berwick Street, so i was a little worried about the weight of my trunk, when
> i was going back, but Leif didnt have as much as i did, so it went ok.
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I made a musketeer outfit for my son to fence in.  The doublet has holes at the waist all around with points that feed through them and attach to the waist of the "trunk hose" or "breeches".  It looks fabulous but it's a real pain!!!  I found that I had to have my son sit down for me to get the proper length for the points in the back otherwise if I tie them standing up, he can't really sit down.  Too much tension is created between the doublet/point/hose.  That portion of the body must lengthen a great deal when one sits down.  Has anyone else experienced this?  I ended up having the points near his middle back decorative only.  

With skirts I can see the advantage, but garments with crotches are a whole other story.


Lisa Sinervo
Threadneedle St. Clothiers
www.ThreadneedleSt.com
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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Wed Apr 16 08:52:04 2003
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What lovely pictures, Bjarne and Stevie! Hope you are feeling better after your spell in hospital, Stevie.

Kate Bunting
Library, University of Derby


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Sorry to bother y'all but I have lost the address for the JPG of that 
beautimus maximus Jacobean gown Bjarne is going to whip up [I make it sound 
oh so easy, don't I?]

Would someone be so kind as to repost it so I can show it to all my friends? 

Thanx!
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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Wed Apr 16 13:11:47 2003
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Greetings All!

I am looking for a European (Preferably English/British Empire) book of 
Etiquette for the Early Victorian Era.  Does anyone who is into antique books 
have any titles for me?

Thanks,
Kit
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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Wed Apr 16 13:36:42 2003
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I do not have any titles for you but I have seen that etiquette for this
time period to be a part of the magazines and sewing books. Some are in
pamphlets for traveling and such. You may want to look in that direction as
well.

Ches

----- Original Message -----
From: <Kitsune242@aol.com>
To: <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2003 12:09 PM
Subject: [h-cost] Etiquette - Not Really Off Topic


> Greetings All!
>
> I am looking for a European (Preferably English/British Empire) book of
> Etiquette for the Early Victorian Era.  Does anyone who is into antique
books
> have any titles for me?
>
> Thanks,
> Kit
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

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Subject: Fw: [h-cost] Etiquette - Not Really Off Topic
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Kit, I have about 18 Etiquette Books but only 2 with London editors and only
one for your time period.  Sorry. Title: "The Habits of Good Society",
Cassel,Petter and Galpin. Year? but before 1900. It gives a section on the
differences between England and the Continent. My favorite however is
"Putnams", 1913. Fun section on dealing with"the servant problem". I do have
about 6-8 American manners before the twentieth century.
Kathleen
----- Original Message -----
From: <Kitsune242@aol.com>
To: <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2003 1:09 PM
Subject: [h-cost] Etiquette - Not Really Off Topic


> Greetings All!
>
> I am looking for a European (Preferably English/British Empire) book of
> Etiquette for the Early Victorian Era.  Does anyone who is into antique
books
> have any titles for me?
>
> Thanks,
> Kit
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Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 12:59:37 -0700
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Etiquette - Not Really Off Topic
From: Agnes Gawne <gawne@mac.com>
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
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This is a really interesting question and surprisingly relevant if we want
to behave correctly when we are wearing our period costumes.  Didn't someone
make a comment that Bjarne was not only the best dressed 18th C man at Bath
but also the best behaved?

I didn't really have an answer to this question but it made me think about
it so I looked up in the UW library here at work and found these three
listings, the first one has been re-printed by Rob Shep.

Author    Lady of distinction
Title    The mirror of the graces, or, The English lady's costume
[microform] : combining and harmonizing taste and judgment, elegance and
grace, modesty, simplicity, and economy, with fashion in dress ... with
useful advice on female accomplishments, politeness and manners ... / by a
lady of distinction
Pub info    New-York : I. Riley, 1813 ([New York] : C. Wiley)

Author    Wildeblood, Joan, 1904-
Title    The polite world; a guide to English manners and deportment from
the thirteenth to the nineteenth century [by] Joan Wildeblood and Peter
Brinson 
Pub info    London, New York, Oxford University Press, 1965


Author    St. George, E. A. W
Title    The descent of manners : etiquette, rules & the Victorians / Andrew
St. George 
Pub info    London : Chatto & Windus, 1993
Bibliography    Includes bibliographical references (p. 290-321) and index
LC SUBJECTS    Etiquette -- Great Britain -- History -- 19th century

Then I looked in the Library of Congress and found lots more:

http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/dihtml/dicatlg.html

links to a number of 19th C dance manuals that have etiquette guides
included.  Here's a list of the things that came up under a LOC search for
etiquette + Great Britain + 19th C:


(1836). The laws of etiquette; or, Short rules and reflections for conduct
in society. Philadelphia,, Carey Lea and Blanchard.
(1841). The Ball-room instructer (sic) ; containing a complete description
of cotillons and other popular dances, with illustrations. New York,,
Huestis & Craft.
(1866). The Ball-room guide. With coloured plates. London,, F. Warne and Co.
(1872). Ball-room dancing without a master, and complete guide to the
etiquette, toilet, dress and management of the ball-room; with all the
principal dances in popular use. New York,, Hurst & Co.
Adjaye, J. K. (1984). Diplomacy and diplomats in nineteenth century Asante.
Lanham, MD, University Press of America.
Adjaye, J. K. (1996). Diplomacy & diplomats in nineteenth century Asante.
Trenton, NJ, Africa World Press.
Aldrich, E. (1991). From the ballroom to hell : grace and folly in
nineteenth-century dance. Evanston, Ill., Northwestern University Press.
American Imprint Collection (Library of Congress) (1798). The gentleman &
lady's companion : containing the newest cotillions and country dances, to
which is added, instances of ill manners, to be carefully avoided by youth
of both sexes. Norwich, Printed by J. Trumbull.
Bennett, E. (1887). Amenities of social life. By Edward Bennett. London,, E.
Stock.
Brookes, L. D. G. (1867). Brookes on modern dancing, containing a full
description of all dances, as practised in the ball room and at private
parties, together with an essay on etiquette. New York, The author.
De Garmo, W. B. (1865). The prompter: containing full descriptions of all
the quadrilles, figures of the German cotillon, etc. Designed for the
assistance of the pupils of Wm. B. De Garmo. New York,, Raymond & Caulon
Printers.
De Garmo, W. B. (1875). The dance of society: a critical analysis of all the
standard quadrilles, round dances, 102 figures of le cotillon ("the
German"), &c., including dissertations upon time and its accentuation,
carriage, style, and other relative matter. New York,, W. A. Pond & Co.
Ferrero, E. (1859). The art of dancing, historically illustrated. To which
is added a few hints on etiquette; also, the figures, music, and necessary
instruction for the performance of the most modern and approved dances, as
executed at the private academies of the author. New York,, The author.
Furnivall, F. J. (1868). Early English meals and manners. London,, Pub. by
H. Milford Oxford university press.
Greville, B. V. G. (1892). The gentlewoman in society. London,, Henry and
co.
Halliwell-Phillipps, J. O. and British Museum (1841). The boke of curtasye,
an English poem of the fourteenth century.
Hillgrove, T. (1857). The scholars' companion and ball-room vade mecum,
comprising a description of all the principal dances ... With hints and
instructions respecting toilet, deportment, &c., &c. New York,, T. R.
Turnbull & Co. Printers.
Howe, E. (1858). Howe's complete ball-room hand book, containing upwards of
three hundred dances, including all the latest and most fashionable dances
... with elegant illustrations, and full explanation and every variety of
the latest and most approved figures, and calls for the different changes,
and rules on deportment and the toilet, and the etiquette of dancing.
Boston,, Ditson & Co.
Howe, E. (1862). American dancing master, and ball-room prompter: containing
about five hundred dances including all the latest and most fashionable ...
with elegant illustrations, and full explanation and every variety of the
latest and most approved figures, and calls for the different changes, and
rules on deportment and the toilet, and the etiquette of dancing. Boston,,
E. Howe.
Kasson, J. F. (1990). Rudeness & civility : manners in nineteenth-century
urban America. New York, Hill and Wang.
Lady of, d. (1997). Regency etiquette : the mirror of graces (1811).
Mendocino, CA
Fort Bragg, CA, R.L. Shep ;
Distributed by R.L. Shep Publications.
Radestock, R. (1877). The royal ball-room guide and etiquette of the
drawing-room, containing the newest and most elegant dances and a short
history of dancing. London,, W. Walker and Sons.
Ransone, L. J. (1888). "Good form" in England. New York,, D. Appleton and
company.
Reilley, E. B. (1870). The amateur's vademecum. A practical treatise on the
art of dancing. Philadelphia,, J. Nicholas Printer.
Rivers, C. H. (1885). A full description of modern dances. Brooklyn.
Rowe, G. H. (1878). The prompter's own book; or, Rowe's calls for the ball
room. Contains all the latest and best calls necessary for an all night
party. Boston,, G. H. Rowe.
Russell, J. and Andrew, L. (1868). The boke of nurture folowyng Englondis
gise.
Segar, F. (1868). The schoole of vertue, and booke of good nourture for
chyldren, and youth to learne theyr dutie by. London,.
Sherwood, M. E. W. (1887). Manners and social usages. New York,, Harper &
Brothers.
Thornwell, E. and Joseph Meredith Toner Collection (Library of Congress)
(1857). The lady's guide to perfect gentility, in manners, dress, and
conversation ... also a useful instructor in letter writing, toilet
preparations, fancy needlework, millinery, dressmaking, care of wardrobe,
the hair, teeth, hands, lips, complexion, etc. New York,, Derby & Jackson.
Wildeblood, J. (1973). The polite world; a guide to the deportment of the
English in former times. London,, Davis-Poynter.
Wildeblood, J. and Brinson, P. (1965). The polite world; a guide to English
manners and deportment from the thirteenth to the nineteenth century.
London, New York,, Oxford University Press.
Wilson, T. (1808). An analysis of country dancing: wherein are displayed all
the figures ever used in country dances, in a way so easy and familiar, that
persons of the meanest capacity may in a short time acquire (without the aid
of a master) a complete knowledge of that rational and polite amusement. To
which are added, instructions for dancing some entire new reels; together
with the rules, regulations, and complete etiquette of the ball room.
London,, Printed by W. Calvert to be had to Mr. Dutton etc.




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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Wed Apr 16 16:31:22 2003
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From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" <drewscph@post12.tele.dk>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
References: <112.21b5a3e0.2bcebf18@aol.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Queen Ann Dress....again
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 21:27:09 +0200
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Hello.
The url. for the big picture is here:
http://www.nmm.ac.uk/uploads//jpg/BHC4251.jpg
I especially like the choise of colours.
Right now i am planning, because after Bath i am hooked on suits :-)
embroidering a new suit on the silk i baught in London. Very narrow striped
blue silk, and 2 matching colours of a lighter blue and a mouse grey striped
silk.
I think i want to make a combination of silverlace and embroidery with
chenille threads.
So, Queen Anne, must wait a little.................

Bjarne

Leif og Bjarne Drews
www.my-drewscostumes.dk

http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/
----- Original Message -----
From: <AlbertCat@aol.com>
To: <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2003 4:13 PM
Subject: [h-cost] Queen Ann Dress....again


> Sorry to bother y'all but I have lost the address for the JPG of that
> beautimus maximus Jacobean gown Bjarne is going to whip up [I make it
sound
> oh so easy, don't I?]
>
> Would someone be so kind as to repost it so I can show it to all my
friends?
>
> Thanx!
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
>


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Subject: [h-cost] This offer might interest some clothing businesses
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Entrepreneur has a special offer on a number of their business titles. You 
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Lavolta Press Books on Historic Costuming
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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Jean Waddie <anne@montgomerie.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] attaching tops to bottoms
References: <002b01c303c6$6d242880$100077d8@pavilion>
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There was a discussion on the list (probably over a year ago) about the 
problem with 15th century hose always ripping in the crotch when your 
man goes and fights in them.  IIRC, one of the solutions proposed was 
not tying the points at the back, and tying those at the sides loosely. 
Even as I'm sitting here, the back waist of my trousers is pulling away 
and down - it's just anatomy.

Jean


Lisa Sinervo <lsinervo@earthlink.net> wrote
>I made a musketeer outfit for my son to fence in.  The doublet has 
>holes at the waist all around with points that feed through them and 
>attach to the waist of the "trunk hose" or "breeches".  It looks 
>fabulous but it's a real pain!!!  I found that I had to have my son sit 
>down for me to get the proper length for the points in the back 
>otherwise if I tie them standing up, he can't really sit down.  Too 
>much tension is created between the doublet/point/hose.  That portion 
>of the body must lengthen a great deal when one sits down.  Has anyone 
>else experienced this?  I ended up having the points near his middle 
>back decorative only.
>
>With skirts I can see the advantage, but garments with crotches are a 
>whole other story.
>
>
>Lisa Sinervo
>Threadneedle St. Clothiers
>www.ThreadneedleSt.com
>_______________________________________________
>h-costume mailing list
>h-costume@mail.indra.com
>http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

-- 
Jean Waddie
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Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 20:47:09 +0100
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Jean Waddie <anne@montgomerie.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] attaching tops to bottoms
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Status: RO

There was a discussion on the list (probably over a year ago) about the 
problem with 15th century hose always ripping in the crotch when your 
man goes and fights in them.  IIRC, one of the solutions proposed was 
not tying the points at the back, and tying those at the sides loosely. 
Even as I'm sitting here, the back waist of my trousers is pulling away 
and down - it's just anatomy.

Jean


Lisa Sinervo <lsinervo@earthlink.net> wrote
>I made a musketeer outfit for my son to fence in.  The doublet has 
>holes at the waist all around with points that feed through them and 
>attach to the waist of the "trunk hose" or "breeches".  It looks 
>fabulous but it's a real pain!!!  I found that I had to have my son sit 
>down for me to get the proper length for the points in the back 
>otherwise if I tie them standing up, he can't really sit down.  Too 
>much tension is created between the doublet/point/hose.  That portion 
>of the body must lengthen a great deal when one sits down.  Has anyone 
>else experienced this?  I ended up having the points near his middle 
>back decorative only.
>
>With skirts I can see the advantage, but garments with crotches are a 
>whole other story.
>
>
>Lisa Sinervo
>Threadneedle St. Clothiers
>www.ThreadneedleSt.com
>_______________________________________________
>h-costume mailing list
>h-costume@mail.indra.com
>http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

-- 
Jean Waddie
_______________________________________________
h-costume mailing list
h-costume@mail.indra.com
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Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 20:37:14 +0100
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Jean Waddie <anne@montgomerie.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Article on historical films, was 100% silk	velvet?
References: <se9aad6f.000@CSV6.derby.ac.uk>
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Kate M Bunting <K.M.Bunting@derby.ac.uk> wrote
>Interesting article - I feel this merits a new thread!
>
>Kate Bunting
>Library, University of Derby
>
>>>> duchess@bustles-and-bows.co.uk 04/14/03 11:42am >>>
>I've seen a great deal of discussion on the subject of films and their
>accuracy, albeit from the aspect of how correct the costumes are.  I
>therefore think that many of you may be interested in an article by Alison
>Weir that appeared in The Scotsman, a web based magazine for Scotland:
>
>http://news.scotsman.com/features.cfm?id=424752003
>
>It mainly talks about accuracy from a historical viewpoint but I think you
>will still find it a fascinating read, I know I did.
>
>Lissa
>
>PS I'm not from Scotland myself, neither do I lived there. <g>
>

I do!  In case anyone should want to cite it, this is actually the 
online edition of The Scotsman newspaper, which is sort of the 
equivalent of The Times in Scotland.
-- 
Jean Waddie
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From: "Penny Ladnier" <penny@costumegallery.com>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
References: <f9.2c2194c0.2bcee855@aol.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Etiquette - Not Really Off Topic
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 19:17:48 -0400
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Kit,

We are in the process of putting London and Fashion Fashion Reports from an
1838 British fashion magazine.  It covers the month July-Dec.

We are also putting online etiquette books online for 1882 and 1923.
Interesting stuff!

Penny Ladnier
Owner, The Costume Gallery & Costume Classroom
http://www.costumegallery.com
http://www.costumeclassroom.com
http://www.onlinecostumeball.com
----- Original Message -----
From: <Kitsune242@aol.com>
To: <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2003 1:09 PM
Subject: [h-cost] Etiquette - Not Really Off Topic


> Greetings All!
>
> I am looking for a European (Preferably English/British Empire) book of
> Etiquette for the Early Victorian Era.  Does anyone who is into antique
books
> have any titles for me?
>
> Thanks,
> Kit
> _______________________________________________
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Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 09:30:12 +1000
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Etiquette - Not Really Off Topic
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> I am looking for a European (Preferably English/British Empire) book
> of Etiquette for the Early Victorian Era.  Does anyone who is into
> antique books have any titles for me?

One of my personal favourites are "Manner for Men" & "Manners for Women" 
(with a third volume called "What shall I Write?") by a Mrs Humphreys. They're 
both late 19thC rather than early.

While it's not strictly an etiquette guide for early 19th C “What Jane Austin Ate & 
Charles Dickens Knew” by Daniel Poole covers a huge amount of reference 
material including appropriate behaviour. 

It also has a fairly decent bibliography.

Paul
--
It's easier to ask forgiveness than to get permission. - W. Slovotsky
http://members.optushome.com.au/velvetspyder
Costumier & Reprobate

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Wow, Agnes, what an amazing list!

_From the Ballroom to Hell:  Grace and Folly in Nineteenth-Century
Dance_ by Elizabeth Aldrich (1991;  ISBN 0-8101-0912-3 or 0-8101-0913-1
for paperback) has excerpts from a number of 19th-century dance and
ettiquette manuals and an annotated bibliography of them in the back. 
To give you an idea of the contents, the chapters are:
I.  Dancing, the Most Enchanting of Human Amusements
II.  Thoughts on Society
III.  Fashion
IV.  The Body:  Detractions from and Complements Thereto (hygiene,
health, and makeup)
V.  The Body:  Composed and Harmonious (deportment, carriage, and conversation)
VI.  Grace and Folly in the Ballroom
VII.  Music and Musicians
VIII.  Dances and Party Games

In her bibliography, titles relevant to your search include:

_The Young Lady's Book, a Manual of Elegant Recreations, Exercises, and
Pursuits_ an 1830 American edition of a work published in Britian in
1829 and 1832.

_The Habits of Good Society:  A Handbook for Ladies and Gentlemen_,
published in England in 1859 and America in 1860 and seventeen more
times beofre 1890!  Also published as "The Ladies' and Gentlemen's
Etiquette Book of the Best Society" and "Sensible Etiquette and Good
Manners of the Best Society"

_The Handbook of Etiquette:  Being a Complete Guide to the Usages of
Polite Society_ London, 1860.

_Mixing in Society.  A Complete Manual of Manners, by the Right Hon.
Countess of **_  published in London and New York, 1860.

There are also several English dancing manuals listed plus one on
fashion and one on exercise. (There are plenty of manuals published in
New York listed, for anyone who's looking into American etiquette.) 
This book might be easier to lay hands on than some of the originals.

Good luck,
Melanie Schuessler
http://www.faucet.net/costume
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Hi. I can't guarantee that this is the answer that you are looking for, or even if this answers your question, but the waistline on men's clothing of the 15th through 17th Cents. changed a bit over time. With the 15th Cent. hose thing, the waistline rode fairly low (feels like a kind of permanent "plumber's crack" when you untie the back points). By the early/mid 17th Cent. the waistline had risen almost up to the bottom of the sternum (look at the painting of Henri II of Lorraine by van Dyck and some of the Abraham Bosse engravings). If you make the breeches loose enough in the crotch, they can ride up enough to be tied in at the
(high, by modern standards) waist. I have a 1620s/30s suit attached by hooks and eyes (which I copied from an original in my artifact collection, the hook, that is, not the suit). The eyes in the doublet are at the tab level, and I am finding that I will have to raise them a bit (and the tabs are sitting at about the point of my floating ribs). This gives the silhouette that I have seen in late 16th/early 17th Cent. paintings. My breeches are full though, not like the "French" style (fairly tight). I have only done one pair like that. and they need to be not only cut differently in the crotch, but in the rear also (a little more
fullness, but that comes with the crotch fullness). Use the basic cut in Nora Waugh's "Cut of Men's Clothes", and play with it to fit. Also, you might want to look at Drea's site, as there are some Spanish tailoring manuals that might show alternate fit. Also, there are the hidden attachment elements as shown in JA to consider. I would recommend full breeches, though, for a fencing garment. The crotch is cut on an angle, and the legs are splayed out in an inverted "v" shape (hence the term "breeches Bible" for the English Bible of the Commonwealth, the shape of the conjoined shields of England and Ireland, the Commonwealth arms on
the title page, making the pattern of a pair of breeches laid out on a flat surface). If you need a picture, send me a note. Hope this helps, Mike T.



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I know this topic comes up a lot, but I hadn't seen this on the list 
before:

 From the Museum of Menstruation:
"What did European and American Women use in the past?"
http://www.mum.org/pastgerm.htm

He could probably use some help with the underwear aspect of it, but 
he's got some cool catalog pages in there, and some interesting 
patterns for pads and a "sanitary apron" that's just a fantastic idea ;)

.heather.

(be warned - the site design is pretty bad, though)

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On Wednesday 16 April 2003 03:59 pm, Agnes Gawne wrote:
> This is a really interesting question and surprisingly relevant if we want
> to behave correctly when we are wearing our period costumes.  Didn't
> someone make a comment that Bjarne was not only the best dressed 18th C man
> at Bath but also the best behaved?

An excellent point, Agnes.

Since we were talking about the accuracy of historically-based movies in 
another thread, let me bring up an example from a movie not set in the modern 
period of how not knowing how to wear period costume can be devastating.  In 
the movie "Anna and the King" starring Jodie Foster as Anna (and Chow Yun Fat 
as the King), Foster's costumes seemed to me to be correct, but she has *no* 
concept of how to move properly in a hoop skirt (the skirt always swung too 
far when she moved at more than a very slow speed).  The only shots featuring 
her that were convincing were those that only showed her above the waist....



-- 
Cathy Raymond <cathy@thyrsus.com>

"Intelligence is the ultimate aphrodisiac."  Timothy Leary
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Agnes and Cathy,

This is the very reason we are putting the etiquette books online.  It is
one thing to dress the part but acting it is another thing.  There were
reasons for social rules.  Different things influenced the way a person
behaved.

Since our site is frequented by the crews for film and theater, I think
these books online will really help them.  Currently, we are focusing on the
funerals, weddings, and household staff.  Both years' online book does
include appropriate dress but also the mannerism.

We have the sections of the books typed.  We need to code the webpages.

Penny Ladnier
Owner, The Costume Gallery & Costume Classroom
http://www.costumegallery.com
http://www.costumeclassroom.com
http://www.onlinecostumeball.com


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From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" <drewscph@post12.tele.dk>
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Hi.
In London i went to Kensington Pallace, and for those of you who soon goes
to England i warmly recoments it.
The way they had put up how 2 ladies and a gentleman was dressing to be
ready for a presentation at court. It was set for the early 20ies, but a
little further on, they showed the presentation in 1903 sourroundings.
Ladies and Gentlemens dress was exquisite. As late as 1903 the fully
embroidered suit in gold was still used. The more important you were, the
more gold on the suit. One gentleman standing with the back towards you, had
no gold on him because he did'nt have any titles, but his suit was
oldfashioned and made of black silk. His back had a strange aplyed "thingie"
on the neck arrea, and we were told that this had its origin from the
bottomed wigs, even that wigs were no longer worn. ( the tail of the wig was
put in a bag, so that the powder would not spoil the suit)
They also had courtwear from my era, and i enjoyed it so much, 3 full
embroidered suits and a large hoop dress.
Then they had showed all the things you had to wear in a showcase, even the
underwear. As for stockings, men used 2 pairs. One pair of cotton stockings
and then a pair of silk over the cottons, to hide the hairy legs.
A tailors shop was also shown, with all the gold threads, seaquins and
threads needed to embroider a suit. I really wanted to bring the whole lot
with me back, but i would be very unpopular if i did it, so i didnt.
There were many beautifull rooms and they also showed the queens
weddingdresses, from Victoria and onwards to some of Dianas dresses. Dont
forget to go, if you get the chance.............


Leif og Bjarne Drews
www.my-drewscostumes.dk

http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/


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Mike T wrote: 
[snip]
>>> The crotch is cut on an angle, and the legs are splayed out in an >inverted "v" shape (hence the term "breeches Bible" for the English Bible >of the Commonwealth, the shape of the conjoined shields of England and >Ireland, the Commonwealth arms on the title page, making the pattern of a >pair of breeches laid out on a flat surface). 

I've never heard that one before; I always understood the "Breeches Bible" was an edition that contained an oddity of translation whereby Adam & Eve are described as making "breeches" of fig leaves rather than the usual "aprons". A friend and I were shown a copy at St.David's Cathedral once.




Kate Bunting
Library, University of Derby


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From: "Kate M Bunting" <K.M.Bunting@derby.ac.uk>
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Etiqette
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I went to Kensington Palace many years ago, when the old London Museum, now incorporated into the Museum of London, was housed there. I remember seeing some royal ladies' dresses, including some of Queen Victoria's (tiny) and a lovely green Empire line dress of Princess Charlotte's (who would have been Queen instead of Victoria if she had lived; she died in childbirth in 1817).

Those 18th-century style suits with the ribbon rosette at the back of the neck to simulate the ribbon on a wig are still worn by certain officials on ceremonial occasions such as the State Opening of Parliament.


Kate Bunting
Library, University of Derby


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From: "Lloyd Mitchell" <rmitchell@washjeff.edu>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
References: 
	<BAC30439.12679%gawne@mac.com><200304170102.02927.cathy@thyrsus.com>
	<010601c304a5$bc65a9c0$0400a8c0@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Etiquette - Not Really Off Topic
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One of the more amusing topics for me has been the correct u se of gloves. I
have been "told' that "a lady always prepares herself completely before
leaving the house as one seen buttoning her gloves on the front steps may be
considered a little fast."  Another source points out " that if your hostess
does not remove her gloves at the dining table, you are obliged to follow
her example."
Kathleen
----- Original Message -----
From: "Penny Ladnier" <penny@costumegallery.com>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Thursday, April 17, 2003 1:53 AM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Etiquette - Not Really Off Topic


> Agnes and Cathy,
>
> This is the very reason we are putting the etiquette books online.  It is
> one thing to dress the part but acting it is another thing.  There were
> reasons for social rules.  Different things influenced the way a person
> behaved.
>
> Since our site is frequented by the crews for film and theater, I think
> these books online will really help them.  Currently, we are focusing on
the
> funerals, weddings, and household staff.  Both years' online book does
> include appropriate dress but also the mannerism.
>
> We have the sections of the books typed.  We need to code the webpages.
>
> Penny Ladnier
> Owner, The Costume Gallery & Costume Classroom
> http://www.costumegallery.com
> http://www.costumeclassroom.com
> http://www.onlinecostumeball.com
>
>
> [This E-mail was scanned for viruses by Plugit.com Virus Scanners
(http://www.plugit.com)]
>
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
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From: Katy Bishop <vintage@shore.net>
To: Lloyd Mitchell <rmitchell@washjeff.edu>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Etiquette - Not Really Off Topic
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On Thu, 17 Apr 2003, Lloyd Mitchell wrote:

>One of the more amusing topics for me has been the correct u se of gloves. I
>have been "told' that "a lady always prepares herself completely before
>leaving the house as one seen buttoning her gloves on the front steps may be
>considered a little fast."  Another source points out " that if your hostess
>does not remove her gloves at the dining table, you are obliged to follow
>her example."
>Kathleen

One of my favorite "use of gloves in movies" episodes is in "Amistad",
Matthew McConaughey's character comes walking in, late for a formal
dinner, carrying his gloves, and makes a formal point of putting his
gloves on in order to eat.  It's as if the gloves were there just for
eating as he didn't arrive with them on.  (I doubt they were going by
the above suggestion of if your hostess leaves her gloves on you do to,
or does that only apply to ladies anyway?)

Katy Bishop, Vintage Victorian
vintage@shore.net                www.VintageVictorian.com
     Custom reproduction gowns of the Victorian Era.
      Publisher of the Vintage Dress Series books.

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From: "Lloyd Mitchell" <rmitchell@washjeff.edu>
To: "H-Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Fw: [h-cost] Etiquette - Not Really Off Topic
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I missed this one! Perhaps the manners staff of the movie had read that very
quote. It is my understanding that the 'gloves on rule' applied only to
women; one was expected to wear gloves with formal dress.  Men wore gloves
only for dancing...unless the man was a servant. Gloves were worn by footmen
on evening occasions. One of my surprise finds earlier in my collecting
years was the discovery of a lump in the 'tail' of a coat of which I was
contemplating replacing the lining . Investigation found the tail pocket
which still harbored a LONG forgotten pair of dancing gloves. I can almost
date 19th century tails by the change in pocket arrangements in men's wear.
Kathleen
----- Original Message -----
From: "Katy Bishop" <vintage@shore.net>
To: "Lloyd Mitchell" <rmitchell@washjeff.edu>
Cc: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Thursday, April 17, 2003 8:29 AM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Etiquette - Not Really Off Topic


> On Thu, 17 Apr 2003, Lloyd Mitchell wrote:
>
> >One of the more amusing topics for me has been the correct u se of
gloves. I
> >have been "told' that "a lady always prepares herself completely before
> >leaving the house as one seen buttoning her gloves on the front steps may
be
> >considered a little fast."  Another source points out " that if your
hostess
> >does not remove her gloves at the dining table, you are obliged to follow
> >her example."
> >Kathleen
>
> One of my favorite "use of gloves in movies" episodes is in "Amistad",
> Matthew McConaughey's character comes walking in, late for a formal
> dinner, carrying his gloves, and makes a formal point of putting his
> gloves on in order to eat.  It's as if the gloves were there just for
> eating as he didn't arrive with them on.  (I doubt they were going by
> the above suggestion of if your hostess leaves her gloves on you do to,
> or does that only apply to ladies anyway?)
>
> Katy Bishop, Vintage Victorian
> vintage@shore.net                www.VintageVictorian.com
>      Custom reproduction gowns of the Victorian Era.
>       Publisher of the Vintage Dress Series books.
>
>

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Subject: [h-cost] 
	Medieval and Renaissance Beauty and Grooming Practices 1000-1600
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Thought some of you might be interested in this book:
 
Plucked, Shaved & Braided: Medieval and Renaissance Beauty and Grooming
Practices 1000-1600
 
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/193006408X/ref=cm_wl_ovu-p
g.1-pos.1/104-1138399-5771154?v=glance
<http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/193006408X/ref=cm_wl_ovu-
pg.1-pos.1/104-1138399-5771154?v=glance&coliid=IQMUDU7F6RRV8&me=ATVPDKIK
X0DER> &coliid=IQMUDU7F6RRV8&me=ATVPDKIKX0DER
 
Sg
 
"The root of education is bitter, the fruit sweet"
Isocrates
 
 
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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Thu Apr 17 18:55:42 2003
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Subject: [h-cost] 11th hour costume con question
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Hi all, 
I thought this group might be the one to ask...is there any schedule anyone 
knows of yet for programming for costume con?   I'm trying to meet up with 
some relatives in chicago and want to schedule things but have no idea what 
lecture/workshop happens when...any clues anyone?

Thanks and cheers,

Loren Dearborn
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From: "Penny Ladnier" <penny@costumegallery.com>
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Subject: [h-cost] Day of the Week Panties
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VH1 is doing a TV show on the 1970s and has contacted me wanting to know if
anyone has in stock the 1970s "day of the week" panties.  They would even be
happy to with a photo or ad.  Anyone who has this item or info please
contact me off list at penny@costumegallery.com

Penny Ladnier
Owner, The Costume Gallery & Costume Classroom
http://www.costumegallery.com
http://www.costumeclassroom.com
http://www.onlinecostumeball.com


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Hi, All. Kate, I am not familiar with the text of the Commonwealth Bible vis a vis the earlier Geneva or King James. I was always told that the Commonwealth was a differently annotated Geneva, but I don't know. I will try and locate the source of the "breeches" thing as regards the pattern, but I have had this in my mind for years. I'll
also check my Geneva and KJ for any variations in Genesis that I can report. Mike T.


>
>
> I've never heard that one before; I always understood the "Breeches Bible" was an edition that contained an oddity of translation whereby Adam & Eve are described as making "breeches" of fig leaves rather than the usual "aprons". A friend and I were shown a copy at St.David's Cathedral once.
>

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Subject: [h-cost] book descr.: Muzzarelli
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Maria Giuseppina Muzzarelli
Guardaroba medievale
Medieval Wardrobe
1999, pp. 380

This volume describes the history of clothing in the Middle Ages, both in 
its material nature and in its social uses, the meanings which society then 
attributed to garments. On the basis of notaries' inventories, shopping 
lists and other documents of the era, the author illustrates - in a series 
of authentic cases - the composition of men and women's medieval wardrobes. 
Types and quantities of attire reveal the various social groups' 
characteristics. Vivid descriptions allow the reader to experience the 
processes concerning the production and commerce of clothes, from the shops 
of craftsmen (dyers, silk-weavers, tanners, shoemakers, tailors) to garment 
vendors and haberdashers. Special emphasis is placed on the social use of 
dress: how people dressed on different occasions, how clothes confirmed 
social status differences, and how the Church and the law attempted (with 
little success) to place limits on luxury.

Maria Giuseppina Muzzarelli, a historian of the middle ages, teaches 
History of the City in the Faculty of Letters and Philosophy at the 
University of Bologna.

http://www.mulino.it/edizioni/foreign_rights/backlist/history/muzza.htm

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Subject: [h-cost] 
	FW: [GermanRenCostume] Bildindex images-very cool stuff-check it
	out!
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Status: RO

Katherine Barich on the German Ren yahoo group did all the leg work for
these, but I thought as many folks as possible should benefit from them.
They are very cool!
 
Sg
 
"The root of education is bitter, the fruit sweet"
Isocrates
 
-----Original Message-----
From: Katherine Barich [mailto:wheezul@canby.com] 
Sent: Thursday, April 17, 2003 2:41 PM
To: GermanRenCostume@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [GermanRenCostume] Bildindex images
 

Hi guys,

I was surfing and collecting links from the Bildindex Orte search and
thought I would share some 16th century stuff to anyone inclined to
point and click.

Katherine

Nürnberg

Belt with knife and sheath
http://www.bildindex.de/fotos/mi/079/09/a/MI07909d12a.jpg

Belt buckle 1586-1600
http://www.bildindex.de/fotos/mi/079/09/b/MI07909d14b.jpg

Belt link 1586-1600
http://www.bildindex.de/fotos/mi/079/09/b/MI07909e01b.jpg

Pelican pendant 1486-1500 and St. George pendant 1501-1515
http://www.bildindex.de/fotos/mi/079/08/b/MI07908e10b.jpg

Gilded silver beads and faceted amethyst beads circa 1500
http://www.bildindex.de/fotos/mi/079/08/b/MI07908e11b.jpg

St Hubert pendant 1501-1515 gilded silver, coral and malachite
http://www.bildindex.de/fotos/mi/079/08/b/MI07908e14b.jpg

Necklace 1530-1540 part of the Nürnberg bridal jewelry
http://www.bildindex.de/fotos/mi/079/08/b/MI07908f11b.jpg

Chain necklaces 1551 - 1600
http://www.bildindex.de/fotos/mi/079/08/b/MI07908f12b.jpg

Necklace 1586 - 1600
http://www.bildindex.de/fotos/mi/079/08/b/MI07908g05b.jpg

Agate and Silver pendant 1586-1600
http://www.bildindex.de/fotos/mi/079/08/b/MI07908g08b.jpg

Key hangers 1401-1600
http://www.bildindex.de/fotos/mi/079/10/b/MI07910b05b.jpg

Ring 1551 - 1600 gold with red stone
http://www.bildindex.de/fotos/mi/079/09/b/MI07909g01b.jpg

Berlin

Bride's belt 16th century
http://www.bildindex.de/fotos/mi/039/97/b/MI03997f02b.jpg

Gold chanins end of 16th century
http://www.bildindex.de/fotos/mi/039/97/b/MI03997f03b.jpg

Leather hat circa 1560
http://www.bildindex.de/fotos/mi/001/86/b/MI00186g02b.jpg

Leather flask 16th century ?Italian
http://www.bildindex.de/fotos/mi/001/86/b/MI00186g04b.jpg

16th century Spanish embroidery
http://www.bildindex.de/fotos/mi/039/97/b/MI03997a04b.jpg

More 16th century Spanish embroidery
http://www.bildindex.de/fotos/mi/039/97/b/MI03997a03b.jpg

Köln

Eagle pendant 2nd half of 16th century
http://www.bildindex.de/fotos/mi/120/09/b/MI12009d07b.jpg

Pomanders 15th and 16th century
http://www.bildindex.de/fotos/mi/016/99/b/MI01699c07b.jpg

Pomanders 15th and 16th century
http://www.bildindex.de/fotos/mi/016/99/b/MI01699c08b.jpg

16th century pomander
http://www.bildindex.de/fotos/mi/120/16/b/MI12016f05b.jpg

16th century pomander
http://www.bildindex.de/fotos/mi/120/16/b/MI12016f06b.jpg

Pearl and gold phoenix circa 1520
http://www.bildindex.de/fotos/mi/016/97/b/MI01697b09b.jpg 

               





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Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 08:45:21 -0700 (PDT)
From: Sidonia Ros <sidoniaros@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Etiquette - Not Really Off Topic
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
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Kit, I have a reproduction copy that was put out by
the Huntington Library a few years back.  I'll see if
I can find it for you.

Sandra


--- Kitsune242@aol.com wrote:
> Greetings All!
> 
> I am looking for a European (Preferably
> English/British Empire) book of 
> Etiquette for the Early Victorian Era.  Does anyone
> who is into antique books 
> have any titles for me?
> 
> Thanks,
> Kit
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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Fri Apr 18 12:00:41 2003
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From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" <drewscph@post12.tele.dk>
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Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 17:59:53 +0200
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Subject: [h-cost] Clickable pictures Bath Ball
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Hi.
I have made the pictures clickable, from the Bath Ball. 
If you are interrested.

Bjarne

Leif og Bjarne Drews
www.my-drewscostumes.dk

http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/


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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Lady Zofia Borek <zofiahborek@netzero.net>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] 100% silk velvet?
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References: <41224.162.119.64.111.1050339926.squirrel@webmail.inreach.com>
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Have you tried Dharma Trading 
Fabrics?  http://www.dharmatrading.com/silk_fabrics.html They usually only 
dell white and also sell the dyes to create the perfect color.

Jennifer

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Subject: Fw: [h-cost] 100% silk velvet?
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But the fiber content is 20/80 silk& rayon.
Kathleen
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lady Zofia Borek" <zofiahborek@netzero.net>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Friday, April 18, 2003 12:56 PM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] 100% silk velvet?


> Have you tried Dharma Trading
> Fabrics?  http://www.dharmatrading.com/silk_fabrics.html They usually only
> dell white and also sell the dyes to create the perfect color.
>
> Jennifer
>
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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Fri Apr 18 15:00:09 2003
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From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" <drewscph@post12.tele.dk>
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Subject: [h-cost] silk velvet.
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Hi.
If you cant afford the very expensive real silk velvet, why dont you
consider to use the fake one.
There is lots of different kinds of fake velvets, but some of them are real
good.
Sir James who had the dark red silk velvet suit at the Bath Ball, looked
very well in his fake silk velvet. I would say it looked like real thing.
Bjarne


Leif og Bjarne Drews
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Clickable pictures Bath Ball
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        I just noticed in the blown up pictures that you really have very
nice legs.  I still think that your costume was superior to any other
pictured.

Lalah
Never give up, Never surrender
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Subject: [h-cost] Our Members in England
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Are any of our UK members in Bath, York, Portsmouth or Bury St. Edmunds?  (Or 
at least near any of those locations?)

The US Post has managed to destroy one of the boxes we had shipped home from 
England, and all of the costuming stuff I bought is gone.  I am hoping that 
if I offer to pay costs and entry to a couple of the museums, that I might be 
able to convince someone someone to pick up some of the lost items and ship 
them to me.

Please contact me in private.

Thanks in Advance,
Kit
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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Sat Apr 19 15:17:43 2003
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Subject: [h-cost] Louise Augusta catalog
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Status: RO

Greetings

I have for sale, a limited number of copies of three exhibition catalogs 
that people have been discussing on this list.

Louise Augusta Kaerlighedsbarnet   by Helleberg, M & Johansen, K
Lions of Fashion   by Rangstrom, L
For Our Royal Person   by Wardle, P

Contact me for pricing or other info at fsbks@mcn.org

Please note that I will be out of the office until after MAY 1, so you 
will not have a reply from me, until AFTER that date.

Fred Struthers
--
Books on Cloth
  a catalog of out-of-print and hard-to-find books
  on costume, textiles and related subjects

distributor, RL Shep Publications
--
http://www.rlshep.com

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From: "Penny Ladnier" <penny@costumegallery.com>
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Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 05:30:28 -0400
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Subject: [h-cost] YEA!!!!!!!
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Status: RO

I finally got all the "Search by Topic" (bottom) shelf links and webpages
active for our online Library, www.costumegallery.com/reseach.htm .  I have
been wanting to do this for years, to categorize the webpages by topic to
make it easier to search.  I didn't want to put a search engine on the site
and have it come up with topics that weren't relevant.  When Shashy
volunteered to make the new book graphics for
the library, I asked her to make the new shelf.

For the past week, I have been going through article by article on the
Gallery to put them into the appropriate categories.  I learned two
things... I must have an obsession with the topics, hats and children.
There are a lot of articles on them. And I thought it was just an obsession
with hairstyles!  Shashy will be adding a book on the shelf for needlework
in the next couple of days.  Thanks to our needlework interns, we will be
adding a lot of these patterns.  The funeral and bridal sections will really
be growing over the next month too.

Down the road, I plan to make pretty background for this shelf's webpages
like the children's page.

Penny Ladnier
Owner, The Costume Gallery & Costume Classroom
http://www.costumegallery.com
http://www.costumeclassroom.com
http://www.onlinecostumeball.com


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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Mon Apr 21 11:00:05 2003
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Subject: [h-cost] New Simplicity pattern book
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I wrote this query today to info@simplicity.com   For any of you interested in the new Simplicity costume catalog or know about the fabric I'm asking about, I thought I'd forward this to the list.
   
  I purchased your Costume catalog(#3811)this weekend and am very interested in buying the plaid fabric pictured on page 872 and on the back cover for pattern 7212 which I have already. It appears to be a silk taffeta and is very true to the period 1860-1870's when aniline dyes made vivid colors possible.  Could you give me any info on the manufacturer or sources where I might purchase this fabric? My university is celebrating its 125 birthday this year and several staff members at this library have put forth the idea as dressing as members of the founding family and/or others connected to the university

  Many thanks!

  Cindy Abel
  ILL Coordinator
  Health Sciences Library
  Creighton University
  2500 California St
  Omaha NE 68178-0210
  brujne@creighton.edu
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From: Jacobson Dawn <dme_maud@pacbell.net>
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Subject: [h-cost] A week in LaLaland (somewhat long)
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Hi to all. I'm finally back after more than a week in
Los Angeles (aka "LaLaland), and am still recovering
and catching up on my e-mail (no access while I was
down there, so the mail box is pretty full).

Firstly, congratulations to Michaela for her Galadriel
win. That costume rocks! If you don't mind, I'm going
to "swipe" some of your distressing techniques (I
wonder how driving over the fabric on 3/4" gravel
would work?) for the next time I need to build a
"predistressed" costume.

So...what was LA like? In a word, cold. I was hoping
to escape our chilly NoCal weather for a week, and
instead had to deal with cold and wet just like the
Bay Area. Yuck!

While I was down there, I had a chance to "hit" 2
museums: the Huntington Library & Art Gallery, and the
Los Angeles County Museum of Art (LACMA). The
Huntington currently has an exhibition entitled
"Gloriana" on the making of the legend of ERI. It's
small, but good, with a number of books and documents
pulled from their collection. I also had a chance to
check out and photograph a bunch of the paintings in
their main gallery (where "Blue Boy," "Pinky," and
"Mrs. Siddons" are all hanging. The paintings look
pretty good, and there are currently several from
other museums (2 from the National Gallery in
Washington D.C. and 1 from the Tate, IIRC).

LACMA is always worth a visit (one of the reasons I
keep my membership), but now is a particularly good
time. The "Sargent in Italy" exhibition has a number
of good works by John Singer Sargent, almost all done
during his "vacations" in Italy. The paintings (oils
and watercolors) are divided up by subject matter, and
1 gallery is nothing but Sargent portraits. His
full-length portrait of Elizabeth Colt (I forget her
married name) is the centerpiece of this gallery, and
was used for one of the posters. The catalog is
beautiful, as are the "goodies" (high quality prints
and such) produced for the exhibition.

Also worth seeing is the Genghis Khan exhibition. I
almost passed on this one, got dragged in by my DH,
and spent the next 90 minutes marvelling over the
illuminated pages, ceramics, jewelry, and textiles.
The exhibition focuses on the Ilkhanid period in Iran,
Iraq, and Afghanistan (roughly 1295-1395) and many of
the items in the exhibition are from collections
outside the US. The mid-14th century silk brocade tent
hangings were particularly impressive. Again, there is
a lovely catalog, and the main bookstore at LACMA has
a number of additional books on the Silk Road and this
period of history.

For those who haven't been to LACMA in a while,
they've rearranged the bookshop space again, and have
their selection spread throughout the three buildings.
The textile and costuming books are now in the "main"
building (where the textile and costume displays
usually are), right next to the front door.

I spent 2 days in the Garment District buying fabrics,
mostly for Oz, but also for myself. I managed to
"score" a couple of good things, including 12 yards of
dark lilac silk dupioni for a ballgown, 4 yds of
silver dupioni for an underskirt, and various amounts
of other stuff for projects. Fabric has gone up in
price: dupioni/shantung is now selling for about $6/yd
(up from $4.50/yd last year), and linen is now running
$4/yd (up from $3/yd last year). However, the bargains
are still out there if you look carefully enough (25
yds of bleached muslin for $1/yd and 100 yds of
unbleached for $80, for examples). I ended up dragging
home about 500 yards of fabric, ranging from poly
poplin and polycotton twill (Oz fabrics) to silks and
linens.

So, in a nutshell, that was my trip to LaLaland. Hope
everybody had a pleasant and restful Passover or
Easter, whichever is your choice.

Dawn

=====
Dawn Jacobson
Vallejo, CA, USA

The world has truly gone crazy. The best rapper is a white guy, the best golfer is a black guy, the Swiss hold the Americas Cup, the French are accusing the United States of arrogance, and the Germans don't want to go to war.
                                                       --Chris Rock
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Subject: [h-cost] Oz and other stuff
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Finally! I'm caught up on the h-costume digest.

Other stuff #1--to Bjarne:

This is going to sound totally stupid, but you are so
cute!!! I just love the suit, and the pictures from
the ball are wonderful.

Other stuff #2--to Stevie:

Again, you're welcome. I hope Bella had a good time at
the ball, and I hope you made it to CostumeCon.

Oz:

I've relearned the first rule of costuming: Never
volunteer for just a little, because you'll get
drafted. I originally volunteered to act as wardrobe
mistress--I'm now the costume designer for the show.
OK except...I haven't worked on a show since about
1985, haven't done any theatrical designing since
1978, and opening night is May 28. I also have a
director with ADD (attention deficit disorder), and 3
stage design people that want to design costumes. I'm
pullling my hair out, but still smiling at this point.

One piece of luck: Enchanted Attic in San Bernardino.
This is a largest costume shop that supplies most of
the theatrical and operatic shows in the "Inland
Empire" (San Bernardino, Riverside, etc.). The owner,
Fern, is a doll. She did most of the preliminary
"pulling" for approval, and between her, me, and the
director, we pulled 30 costumes in a little over 3
hours. That leaves me with 59-65 to build: 2 crows, 3
trees, 14 Winkies, 40 "poppykins" and possibly 6
jitterbugs.

Another piece of luck: Having Spring Break fall last
week. I was in LA, and was able to buy 95% of the
materials to build the costumes in the Garment
District. No tremendous deals, but I paid $1/yd or
less for all the fabric for I needed (about 300 yds),
so I'm pleased.

Yet another piece of luck (and a belated thank you):
This list. Thanks millions to everyone that posted
suggestions on how to build the trees; I think it's
going to work out just fine.

I was also pleased to find that when pushed, I can
still crank out design sketches. I had to do about 40
sketches in 4 days, and I managed to do it (barely). I
haven't had to do that much sustained creative effort
in a couple of decades, but I can still do it, and not
end up a jibbering idiot afterward.

I also found out what the next show is: Oliver!,
scheduled to run in early August. This one is going to
have to be a "pulled show" (I don't build anything),
as I have 6 costumes I have to build for myself and
others before Costume College in August. I've been
thinking about it for the past few days, and will
probably start the sketches this week (in between
bouts at the sewing machine).

Dawn

=====
Dawn Jacobson
Vallejo, CA, USA

The world has truly gone crazy. The best rapper is a white guy, the best golfer is a black guy, the Swiss hold the Americas Cup, the French are accusing the United States of arrogance, and the Germans don't want to go to war.
                                                       --Chris Rock
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Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 22:21:07 +0100
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Jean Waddie <anne@montgomerie.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] book descr.: Muzzarelli
References: <5.2.0.9.0.20030418142853.03f41e30@jagor.srce.hr>
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What dates does this book take as "medieval"?  Is it confined to Italian 
sources, or what area does it cover?  It sounds like it could be very 
interesting, but it depends on the scope.

Jean


Jadran Kale <jkale@public.srce.hr> wrote
>Maria Giuseppina Muzzarelli
>Guardaroba medievale
>Medieval Wardrobe
>1999, pp. 380
>
>This volume describes the history of clothing in the Middle Ages, both 
>in its material nature and in its social uses, the meanings which 
>society then attributed to garments. On the basis of notaries' 
>inventories, shopping lists and other documents of the era, the author 
>illustrates - in a series of authentic cases - the composition of men 
>and women's medieval wardrobes. Types and quantities of attire reveal 
>the various social groups' characteristics. Vivid descriptions allow 
>the reader to experience the processes concerning the production and 
>commerce of clothes, from the shops of craftsmen (dyers, silk-weavers, 
>tanners, shoemakers, tailors) to garment vendors and haberdashers. 
>Special emphasis is placed on the social use of dress: how people 
>dressed on different occasions, how clothes confirmed social status 
>differences, and how the Church and the law attempted (with little 
>success) to place limits on luxury.
>
>Maria Giuseppina Muzzarelli, a historian of the middle ages, teaches 
>History of the City in the Faculty of Letters and Philosophy at the 
>University of Bologna.
>
>http://www.mulino.it/edizioni/foreign_rights/backlist/history/muzza.htm
>
>_______________________________________________
>h-costume mailing list
>h-costume@mail.indra.com
>http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

-- 
Jean Waddie
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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Mon Apr 21 17:41:41 2003
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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Jean Waddie <anne@montgomerie.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] book descr.: Muzzarelli
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Status: RO

What dates does this book take as "medieval"?  Is it confined to Italian 
sources, or what area does it cover?  It sounds like it could be very 
interesting, but it depends on the scope.

Jean


Jadran Kale <jkale@public.srce.hr> wrote
>Maria Giuseppina Muzzarelli
>Guardaroba medievale
>Medieval Wardrobe
>1999, pp. 380
>
>This volume describes the history of clothing in the Middle Ages, both 
>in its material nature and in its social uses, the meanings which 
>society then attributed to garments. On the basis of notaries' 
>inventories, shopping lists and other documents of the era, the author 
>illustrates - in a series of authentic cases - the composition of men 
>and women's medieval wardrobes. Types and quantities of attire reveal 
>the various social groups' characteristics. Vivid descriptions allow 
>the reader to experience the processes concerning the production and 
>commerce of clothes, from the shops of craftsmen (dyers, silk-weavers, 
>tanners, shoemakers, tailors) to garment vendors and haberdashers. 
>Special emphasis is placed on the social use of dress: how people 
>dressed on different occasions, how clothes confirmed social status 
>differences, and how the Church and the law attempted (with little 
>success) to place limits on luxury.
>
>Maria Giuseppina Muzzarelli, a historian of the middle ages, teaches 
>History of the City in the Faculty of Letters and Philosophy at the 
>University of Bologna.
>
>http://www.mulino.it/edizioni/foreign_rights/backlist/history/muzza.htm
>
>_______________________________________________
>h-costume mailing list
>h-costume@mail.indra.com
>http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

-- 
Jean Waddie
_______________________________________________
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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Mon Apr 21 19:47:55 2003
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From: "Lloyd Mitchell" <rmitchell@washjeff.edu>
To: "H-Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
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Subject: [h-cost] New topic: Shaker underpinnings
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I have an inquiry pertaining to 'unders 'for the Shaker woman.  The period in question is 1860-65, New England.  Does anyone have any information about the garments that might have been worn?  We have general 'specs', but would like to connect with information that can be documented.
Kathleen
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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Tue Apr 22 02:18:00 2003
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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Danielle Nunn-Weinberg <dannw@mn.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] 100% silk velvet?
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20030418125441.00b1cdd0@pop.netzero.net>
References: <3E9B782E.5040003@grics.net>
 <41224.162.119.64.111.1050339926.squirrel@webmail.inreach.com>
 <20030414082134.97256.qmail@web40002.mail.yahoo.com>
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Greetings,

Jack Lenor Larsen designs/makes 100% silk upholstery velvet.  I can't even 
begin to describe it - it has the density and weight of a good quality 
cotton upholstery velvet but has the hand and subtle sheen of silk.  I 
think it is as close to period silk velvets as we can get and it is to die 
for.  I don't know who carries it or for how much but, I believe it carried 
by upscale interior design firms...if you have the money it is worth 
checking out.

Cheers,
Danielle

At 12:56 PM 4/18/2003 -0400, you wrote:
>Have you tried Dharma Trading 
>Fabrics?  http://www.dharmatrading.com/silk_fabrics.html They usually only 
>dell white and also sell the dyes to create the perfect color.
>
>Jennifer

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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Tue Apr 22 02:18:23 2003
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Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 01:18:58 -0500
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Danielle Nunn-Weinberg <dannw@mn.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] 100% silk velvet?
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20030418125441.00b1cdd0@pop.netzero.net>
References: <3E9B782E.5040003@grics.net>
 <41224.162.119.64.111.1050339926.squirrel@webmail.inreach.com>
 <20030414082134.97256.qmail@web40002.mail.yahoo.com>
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Greetings,

Jack Lenor Larsen designs/makes 100% silk upholstery velvet.  I can't even 
begin to describe it - it has the density and weight of a good quality 
cotton upholstery velvet but has the hand and subtle sheen of silk.  I 
think it is as close to period silk velvets as we can get and it is to die 
for.  I don't know who carries it or for how much but, I believe it carried 
by upscale interior design firms...if you have the money it is worth 
checking out.

Cheers,
Danielle

At 12:56 PM 4/18/2003 -0400, you wrote:
>Have you tried Dharma Trading 
>Fabrics?  http://www.dharmatrading.com/silk_fabrics.html They usually only 
>dell white and also sell the dyes to create the perfect color.
>
>Jennifer

_______________________________________________
h-costume mailing list
h-costume@mail.indra.com
http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

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Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 01:43:01 -0500
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Danielle Nunn-Weinberg <dannw@mn.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Clickable pictures Bath Ball
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The ball looks like it was lots of fun, there were many gorgeous costumes 
it looks like.  Bjarne, you looked so perfect!

Cheers,
Danielle

At 05:59 PM 4/18/2003 +0200, you wrote:
>Hi.
>I have made the pictures clickable, from the Bath Ball.
>If you are interrested.
>
>Bjarne

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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
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Greetings,

Well, I'm back from CostumeCon!  It was so much fun.  I hope more people 
from the list go to the next one, it was really great to be able to finally 
put faces to names.  One of H-Costume's members did very well in the 
historical masquerade (competition).  ...I hope she will brag about it when 
she gets back - it was a very impressive entry.  : )

Cheers,
Danielle

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> Well, I'm back from CostumeCon!  It was so much fun.  I hope more people 

We want photos!!!!

Karen-----
www.members.optusnet.com.au/smonster/
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] New Simplicity pattern book
Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 08:52:21 -0400
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Cindy, If you are going to be using the pattern also, be aware that it is
designed for a modern fit(i.e.. the shoulder line is at the shoulder,
sideline is at the true side and the waistline is 'true waist'.) Dresses of
this period should have a shoulder that recedes slightly backwards and the
back is cut smaller. These two elements cause the wearer to stand more
erect. The waist line  should be slightly short . I suspect the reason for
this is more than aesthetic ; with all the underpinnings meeting at the
waist, it gets a little bunchy with the layers.
I recently made a companion in this series and did the pattern alteration in
this way:
Tape the back and front shoulder pieces together retaining one seam
allowance.  Mark one inch at the neckline from the front,  on the back piece
and two inches at the sleeve side.  Cut  the revised back free.
Tape the side back to the front side and diminish the side back by cutting a
line of about 1'fat'inch from the sideback.T
The back piece can be slightly diminished by removing the seam allowance
from the waist  upwards to the curve . Once again if you tape the pieces
together before you cut, you should not have to then remember when you cut
the fabric to restore seam allowances.
The waist then need only to have the seam allowance cut off.
Then make your muslin from the altered pattern.
It should fit smoothly across the back without puckers or blousing; the new
shoulder will have a gentle wrap backwards.
Be aware that this new fit will also effect the sleeve insertion.
I was puzzled by one inner construction; they give the pieces that are
padded and inserted under the arm, which if used,
 would pad the bosom of the dress in that area.  I have several antiques of
the period and they do not have this padding...at least in women's garments.
My take on this is that someone has mistaken sweat shields for bolsters in
their research. Has anyone else seen this in your travels through museum
archives of nineteenth century garments ?
Kathleen                                                                    
                                                                            
                                                                            
                                                                            
                                                                            
                                                                            
                                                                            
                           ---- Original Message -----
From: "Cynthia Abel" <brujne@creighton.edu>
To: "Cynthia Abel" <brujne@creighton.edu>
Cc: <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Monday, April 21, 2003 11:01 AM
Subject: [h-cost] New Simplicity pattern book


I wrote this query today to info@simplicity.com   For any of you interested
in the new Simplicity costume catalog or know about the fabric I'm asking
about, I thought I'd forward this to the list.

  I purchased your Costume catalog(#3811)this weekend and am very interested
in buying the plaid fabric pictured on page 872 and on the back cover for
pattern 7212 which I have already. It appears to be a silk taffeta and is
very true to the period 1860-1870's when aniline dyes made vivid colors
possible.  Could you give me any info on the manufacturer or sources where I
might purchase this fabric? My university is celebrating its 125 birthday
this year and several staff members at this library have put forth the idea
as dressing as members of the founding family and/or others connected to the
university

  Many thanks!

  Cindy Abel
  ILL Coordinator
  Health Sciences Library
  Creighton University
  2500 California St
  Omaha NE 68178-0210
  brujne@creighton.edu
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Danielle Nunn-Weinberg wrote:
> Greetings,
> 
> Well, I'm back from CostumeCon!  It was so much fun.  I hope more people 
> from the list go to the next one, it was really great to be able to 
> finally put faces to names.  One of H-Costume's members did very well in 
> the historical masquerade (competition).  ...I hope she will brag about 
> it when she gets back - it was a very impressive entry.  : )

	Oh! Thank you very much, glad you liked it. I had a great 
time, and it was wonderful to meet so many of the folks I 
see posting regularly. And I'm still annoyed that I never 
got to hear Teddy's story about blowing up the hotel sink 
(even though he did tell it - I was somewhere else).
	About my entry (brag: I won Best in Master Class for both 
documentation and stage, and workmanship award was something 
about "Best obsessive handsewing" - ah, this was my first 
time up as a master level). The outfit was an 1860s Danish 
day dress from the Ringkobing area. Basically it was a 
fan-front dress out of dark green alpaca drille with a 
burgundy silk apron, custom knit wool stockings (my friend 
knits them) and a winged tulle under-cap with a hare-hair 
top hat. The tulle cap was all white on white embroidery 
(including the ruffles) and the wings were starched with 
rice starch and ruffled over a wooden frame of dowels. And 
then I had to figure out how to ship the cap to the 
convention without crushing the starching!!
	There was a lot of great costumes in the competition, we 
had about 21 entries. This made me very happy because the 
entries have been getting really low at the last few cons. I 
think the "pearlies" (cockney button design outfits) from 
Mary Poppins was my favorite!
	There will be pics put on the web at some point, I don't 
know how long it will take. I know the photographer said 
something about putting everything online so people could 
see (and order!), but I don't know off hand what url it will 
be or how quick he'll be - he was shooting digital so it's 
not as if he has to develop and scan the stuff.

	I hope everyone had uneventful trips back home!

	-Judy Mitchell (and back to lurking)

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From: Robin Netherton <robin@shell.nightowl.net>
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] back from CostumeCon
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On Tue, 22 Apr 2003, Danielle Nunn-Weinberg wrote:

> Well, I'm back from CostumeCon!  It was so much fun.  I hope more
> people from the list go to the next one, it was really great to be
> able to finally put faces to names.

What she said :-)

I will try to post something more coherent later -- I've got a lot of
catching up to do on work and sleep. There were *loads* of h-cost people
there, including some lurkers whose names I'd never seen before. (The red
"H" we stamped on our badges was a big help.) I would name everyone if I
could but I'm a little fried right now. It was almost as though there was
a mini h-cost convention going on within the CostumeCon.

The weekend was visually delightful; everywhere I looked there was
something else beautiful or fantastical worth lingering over. I was the
dullest one there most of the time, having brought only my 60s Mod
minidress for the Friday party and my lecture outfit (a GFD, of course). I
am now acutely aware that I need a *new* lecture outfit; after several
years I have outgrown this one, and I don't mean that it's too short ;-)

--Robin

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From: "Lisa Sinervo" <lisa-list@threadneedlest.com>
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References: 
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	<001101c308ce$1e479a00$6d5183d1@rmitchellras>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] New Simplicity pattern book
Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 06:59:44 -0700
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Kathleen wrote:
> I was puzzled by one inner construction; they give the pieces that are
> padded and inserted under the arm, which if used,
>  would pad the bosom of the dress in that area.  I have several antiques
of
> the period and they do not have this padding...at least in women's
garments.
> My take on this is that someone has mistaken sweat shields for bolsters in
> their research. Has anyone else seen this in your travels through museum
> archives of nineteenth century garments ?


I took a goldrush era vintage costuming course at my local community college
last year and this padding was discussed.  The teacher was a lovely lady,
but not a "serious" costume historian, more a historical costumer but still
seemed to be well researched.  I don't know this period at all but I will
repeat that she pointed out that dropping the shoulders and other period
seam placements causes excess fabric above the breasts towards the shoulder
/ armpit and to overcome this padding was used.  I haven't looked at the
Simplicity pattern, but it appears that this might be the same idea here,
but if it is a modern cut dress why bother?   So, it's not the first time
I've heard this mentioned.  Whether this is a modern costumers way of
dealing with the fit of a dropped shoulder or it happened historically as my
teacher said without references I don't know, but would be interested in
hearing an answer.

Lisa



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Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 07:10:23 -0700 (PDT)
From: Tania Gruning <tania_gr17@yahoo.com>
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
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Dear All.

I was wondering if somebody on the list was desperate to get something from Denmark.

I would really like to get two patterns from simplicity and the nearest outlet from where I am is in either London or Paris, and as a poor student I cannot go there just to get a pattern .

It is the simplicity Design: 

9769    Sizes:   6 to 20 Misses' Authentic Civil War Undergarments

And
Design:   7215    Sizes:   6 to 20 Misses Chemise and Corset

The one for my first victorian corset and the other for when I need a challenge.

Yours Sincerely

Tania



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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Tue Apr 22 10:18:16 2003
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Patterns
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I'm not desperate to get anything from Denmark, but I wouldn't mind sending 
you the patterns.  Does their website not allow international mail orders, 
though?

Email me privately if you need me to do the sending for you.

Ann Wass
annbwass@aol.com
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] silk velvet.
Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 10:25:17 -0400
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Talking about silk velvet...

I went to NYC this weekend, the Cloisters and the Metropolitan museum both
have small pieces of silk velvet... not nearly enough to my liking, but they
were the first real ones I'd ever seen! Yummy!
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I was wondering if anyone can tell me of any good fabric stores in South
Carolina.   I am going to be in Charleston this weekend and I know I have
heard of at least one fabric outlet store somewhere in South Carolina.   Any
advice would be appreciated!

Thanks,
Tish P
Montgomery, AL
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My favorite South Carolina fabric store is Ninety-Six Fabrics in
Ninety-Six, SC.  They have an entire room dedicated to reenactors, both
Revolutionary and Civil War.  Mary Jo's in Gastonia, NC, however, is just
over the state line.  It's huge but mainstream.

Vicki Betts
Texas


I was wondering if anyone can tell me of any good fabric stores in South
Carolina.   I am going to be in Charleston this weekend and I know I have
heard of at least one fabric outlet store somewhere in South Carolina.
Any
advice would be appreciated!

Thanks,
Tish P
Montgomery, AL
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In a message dated 4/22/2003 11:14:36 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
Vicki_Betts@mail.uttyl.edu writes:


> My favorite South Carolina fabric store is Ninety-Six Fabrics in
> Ninety-Six, SC. 

And where, please, is Ninety-Six?  Anywhere near Charleston?

I've been to Mary Jo's.  Got some good batiste trims and a piece of silk and 
have kicked myself several times that I didn't buy the beautiful piece of 
butterscotch wool I saw.  And it is not very close to Charleston.

Ann Wass
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Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 10:38:38 -0500
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Sheryl Nance-Durst <sherylnd@kc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] back from CostumeCon
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Yes, Judy did really well in the master class! Her outfit was entirely 
hand-sewn!
Talk about dedication....  :-)

I did pretty well myself in the novice category. It's the first time that I 
had ever
entered a masquerade and I won best novice workmanship, best of class in 
novice,
and got an honorable mention for my documentation. I was so excited!
It was a black and white day dress from 1894.
My doll got an award too. (but it was sf/fantasy, not historical).

It was great meeting so many people that I've talked to here.
Robin was there (in a nifty BRIGHT mod dress for the party).
I went out to dinner and sari shopping one night with Karen (seamstrix)
and Teddy. They were a hoot! I met one of the Allisons (sorry, I can't remember
which one). And a couple of other h-costumers whom I'm too overloaded
to remember right now.

Now if I can just get over the exhaustion and brain-fry.....

Sheryl Nance-Durst


At 01:46 AM 4/22/03 -0500, you wrote:

>Well, I'm back from CostumeCon!  It was so much fun.  I hope more people 
>from the list go to the next one, it was really great to be able to 
>finally put faces to names.  One of H-Costume's members did very well in 
>the historical masquerade (competition).  ...I hope she will brag about it 
>when she gets back - it was a very impressive entry.  : )
>
>Cheers,
>Danielle


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Subject: Re: [h-cost] fabric stores in SC?
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
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Ninety Six is between Greenwood and Newberry, west of Columbia, so it's not
near Charleston, either. (183 miles according to Mapquest).  But I got a
gorgeous piece of gray with blue and black windowpane wool there, and they
had other lovely things.  I don't know of any fabric stores right around
Charleston, either good or bad.

Vicki Betts



In a message dated 4/22/2003 11:14:36 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
Vicki_Betts@mail.uttyl.edu writes:


> My favorite South Carolina fabric store is Ninety-Six Fabrics in
> Ninety-Six, SC.

And where, please, is Ninety-Six?  Anywhere near Charleston?

I've been to Mary Jo's.  Got some good batiste trims and a piece of silk
and
have kicked myself several times that I didn't buy the beautiful piece of
butterscotch wool I saw.  And it is not very close to Charleston.

Ann Wass
_______________________________________________
h-costume mailing list
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http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume



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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Tue Apr 22 12:04:34 2003
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From: "Peavy, Tish" <tish.peavy@yourcall.com>
To: "'Historical Costume'" <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: RE: [h-cost] fabric stores in SC?
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Thank you all for replying about the fabric stores.  I wish I had more time
to travel around to the ones you mentioned.  Maybe next trip! ; )

Tish

*~*-----Original Message-----
*~*From: Vicki_Betts@mail.uttyl.edu [mailto:Vicki_Betts@mail.uttyl.edu]
*~*Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2003 10:49 AM
*~*To: Historical Costume
*~*Subject: Re: [h-cost] fabric stores in SC?
*~*
*~*
*~*
*~*
*~*
*~*
*~*Ninety Six is between Greenwood and Newberry, west of 
*~*Columbia, so it's not
*~*near Charleston, either. (183 miles according to Mapquest).  
*~*But I got a
*~*gorgeous piece of gray with blue and black windowpane wool 
*~*there, and they
*~*had other lovely things.  I don't know of any fabric stores 
*~*right around
*~*Charleston, either good or bad.
*~*
*~*Vicki Betts
*~*
*~*
*~*
*~*In a message dated 4/22/2003 11:14:36 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
*~*Vicki_Betts@mail.uttyl.edu writes:
*~*
*~*
*~*> My favorite South Carolina fabric store is Ninety-Six Fabrics in
*~*> Ninety-Six, SC.
*~*
*~*And where, please, is Ninety-Six?  Anywhere near Charleston?
*~*
*~*I've been to Mary Jo's.  Got some good batiste trims and a 
*~*piece of silk
*~*and
*~*have kicked myself several times that I didn't buy the 
*~*beautiful piece of
*~*butterscotch wool I saw.  And it is not very close to Charleston.
*~*
*~*Ann Wass
*~*_______________________________________________
*~*h-costume mailing list
*~*h-costume@mail.indra.com
*~*http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
*~*
*~*
*~*
*~*_______________________________________________
*~*h-costume mailing list
*~*h-costume@mail.indra.com
*~*http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
*~*
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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Tue Apr 22 12:08:50 2003
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Subject: [h-cost] Re: New topic: Shaker underpinnings
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I have an inquiry pertaining to 'unders 'for the Shaker woman.  The period in 
question is 1860-65, New England.  Does anyone have any information about the 
garments that might have been worn?  

When I visited Pleasant Hill (a restored Shaker village in Kentucky), I got 
the impression that they simply wore a slightly old-fashioned version of 
everyday wear for the period.  Presumably that would include their "unders", 
but you want documentation instead of extrapolation.

I haven't checked all of them, but there's lots of links in the Shaker 
article on the Religious Movements Homepage: <A HREF="http://religiousmovements.lib.virginia.edu/nrms/Shakers.html">
http://religiousmovements.lib.virginia.edu/nrms/Shakers.html</A>

Leah
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] New Simplicity pattern book
Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 12:25:14 -0400
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This is very interesting. Having made the dress in question, I can see why
they might have decided the pad was necessary because of the 'bunching' you
mention.  When I 'rolled the shoulder, the padding was not necessary, hence
my suggestions to correct the cut.
Thank you! Kathleen
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lisa Sinervo" <lisa-list@threadneedlest.com>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2003 9:59 AM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] New Simplicity pattern book


> Kathleen wrote:
> > I was puzzled by one inner construction; they give the pieces that are
> > padded and inserted under the arm, which if used,
> >  would pad the bosom of the dress in that area.  I have several antiques
> of
> > the period and they do not have this padding...at least in women's
> garments.
> > My take on this is that someone has mistaken sweat shields for bolsters
in
> > their research. Has anyone else seen this in your travels through museum
> > archives of nineteenth century garments ?
>
>
> I took a goldrush era vintage costuming course at my local community
college
> last year and this padding was discussed.  The teacher was a lovely lady,
> but not a "serious" costume historian, more a historical costumer but
still
> seemed to be well researched.  I don't know this period at all but I will
> repeat that she pointed out that dropping the shoulders and other period
> seam placements causes excess fabric above the breasts towards the
shoulder
> / armpit and to overcome this padding was used.  I haven't looked at the
> Simplicity pattern, but it appears that this might be the same idea here,
> but if it is a modern cut dress why bother?   So, it's not the first time
> I've heard this mentioned.  Whether this is a modern costumers way of
> dealing with the fit of a dropped shoulder or it happened historically as
my
> teacher said without references I don't know, but would be interested in
> hearing an answer.
>
> Lisa
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> h-costume@mail.indra.com
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>

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Subject: Re: [h-cost] New Simplicity pattern book
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>
>I took a goldrush era vintage costuming course at my local community college
>last year and this padding was discussed.

<snip>
Whether this is a modern costumers way of
>dealing with the fit of a dropped shoulder or it happened historically as my
>teacher said without references I don't know, but would be interested in
>hearing an answer.

I've seen it in a number of original Victorian dresses.  It pulls up extra 
fabric, also makes the bust look a little more rounded.

Fran



Lavolta Press Books on Historic Costuming
http://www.lavoltapress.com
Historic and Vintage Dance
http://www.lavoltapress.com/dance 

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Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 11:08:48 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Angharad ver' Reynulf" <dragonwolfcat@yahoo.com>
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
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Subject: [h-cost] Norwescon update (hey, couldn't make CostumeCon!)
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I went to our regional "biggie" convention and this
time, instead of being a con committee slave, went to
panels and participated in the Masquerade costume
contest.  Easter Weekend in the Northwest means that
it is time for Norwescon and until it doesn't
conflict, I'll likely never make Costume Con. 
*sigh*


Our group, which comprised of two Journeyman Class,
two Novices and the other three models/helpers was
titles "5 of a Kind."  Molly and I were doing our
first Journeyman entry and Bronwyn and Mary were
Novices in their first ever contest. All 15th Century
gowns with headpieces (mine was appropriately
silly/menacing as the Queen of Spades)and a Joker with
tights and jerkin.

One dealer and a deck of cards to introduce us all:

Queen of Clubs, now renamed "Captain Hips" (music clip
"Luck be a Lady Tonight" swaggling hips and blowing
kisses everywhere)

Queen of Diamonds...a novice who spent 70+ hours alone
on her sleeves with diamond dags and sparklies (music
clip: Madonna's "Diamonds are a Girl's Best Friend",
with the Material Girl snippet)

Queen of Spades (ok, so I looked a lot like
Maleficent...in midnight blue, black/silver and tons
of beads) {clip: Styx's "Beware of the Queen of
Spades}

Queen of Hearts (very Disneyesque Alice in Wonderland
style)Her Music?

Juice Newton's "Queen of Hearts" to segue in.....


a truly obnoxious day-glo jester.

and walk off to a chorus of Kenny Roger's "The
Gambler"

*gloat* we won Best Workmanship in a Group and BEST IN
SHOW (GROUP)!!!


Historical-type costuming won in a setting where it
traditionally doesn't!!!

Happy floating dance and best of all, we can wear it
to the SCA as well, and were already approached by
Dark Knight Productions as possibly being involved
with them as well.

Angharad ver' Reynulf
yes, I AM the evil queen 


One shot, done by a friend before we found out the
judge's decisions, is at
photos.yahoo.com/dragonwolfcat .   Sorry, I can't
rotate it here at work.  I'm going to try to get a
hold of a couple of the folks who were taking pictures
to see if I can get some that are in focus-since they
took them of the group, individuals, as well as suit
sets and Junior/Senior Queen sets.

(But I still wish we could have gone to Costume Con
instead...)



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I got to see the black and white day dress semi-up-close (well, my glasses 
are decent, anyhow).  It's a lovely dress.  
My friend Deanna and I managed to make the audience laugh by doing a box-step 
to the Star Wars Cantina (AKA the Copacabana), and we won for pattern 
modification.  For anyone at the Con, I was the goth girl during the 
historical masquerade- the costume needs an overhaul, because the bodice was 
a disaster!  I plan to fix all of its problems over the summer.  Until then, 
at least I actually GOT on stage!  (the order of presentations went 1, 2, 4, 
5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 3).  Yes, I was presentation three in the novice category. 
 The den moms were pinning me together ;)

Christine


In a message dated 4/22/03 11:34:14 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
sherylnd@kc.rr.com writes:

> I did pretty well myself in the novice category. It's the first time that I 
> had ever
> entered a masquerade and I won best novice workmanship, best of class in 
> novice,
> and got an honorable mention for my documentation. I was so excited!
> It was a black and white day dress from 1894.

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Hi everyone!  I'm back from CostumeCon, and oh my, it was some of the most
fun I've ever had in my life! 

Teddy is just what you'd expect, but even more so.  Danielle Nunn-Weinberg
and Drea Leed are WILD women, as are both Allisons.  There were many others
too, I'm  still so tired I can't remember everyone. 

The black beaded 20's dress was a great sucess, especially in the eyes of a
certain trumpet weilding band leader.  Teddy says I'm a wicked temptress!
I did discover that you should never buy a cheap Ebay feather boa, the
dance floor looked like a cockfight after I was on it and I followed a
trail of fallen feathers all the way back to my room.  

The programming had problems, due in part to a mixup with the hotel that
left us short a room.  A number of the worksops and classes were cancelled.

There weren't many merchants, but the ones there were kept me busy.  Alter
Years had an entire room, and I bought myself a pair of fancy golden
embroidery scissors with a matching sheath to hang from my girdle, and a
matching needle case.  I also bought books;  one on shoemaking, a couple of
fantasy novels, and Wayne found several arms and armour type books he
liked.  Calontir Trims was there, and I dropped some on fancy brocade
ribbon trim, including a four inch wide one with scenes from the Bayeux
Tapestry, to trim my living room curtains.  We bought a video on making
chain mail, and some Renaissance music CDs.

Farthingales was also there. They had several unique products.  One I
really liked is a strip of spring steel boning with holes already drilled,
so that you can set grommets through it, eliminating the problem of them
ripping out of fabric.  I plan to try them in my next corset.

Farthingales was demonstrating the protype of a new machine, a hand press
that cuts the ends of both flat steel and spirals, and applies the metal
U-tips that are such a pain to do by hand.  The machine is probably too
expensive for individuals, at $350, but would be great for a costume shop.  

The masquerades were wonderful as usual.  The Fantasy masquerade was won by
a group doing the rock song  "The Court of the Crimson King."  Their
costumes were stunning onstage and even more so closeup,  Every piece was
not only lined and finished, but the *linings* had hand sewn trims!

The historical masquerade was won by Janet Anderson wearing a staggeringly
gorgeous gold Dior tribute of a ball gown.  Extra credit for wearing the
five inch spike heels that finished the outfit. 

Wayne took lots of pictures, and we'll be adding them to the website soon.

Exhausted but happy, 

Margo


"One Tough Costumer"
http://www.margospatterns.com
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Judy Mitchell wrote:

>
>     There was a lot of great costumes in the competition, we had about 
> 21 entries. This made me very happy because the entries have been 
> getting really low at the last few cons.

This is what happens when the convention goes out of the country; not 
many people attend, and ideas get backed up.  A lot of very experienced 
costumers came out of the woodwork to compete again.

Judy did better than I, but I did get a workmanship award for my 
handquilted petticoat, so I was happy.

> I think the "pearlies" (cockney button design outfits) from Mary 
> Poppins was my favorite!

Those are members of the same ICG guild chapter I'm in, including my 
ex-husband (he was the one with the squeezebox who had to be dragged 
offstage).

>
>     There will be pics put on the web at some point, I don't know how 
> long it will take. I know the photographer said something about 
> putting everything online so people could see (and order!), but I 
> don't know off hand what url it will be or how quick he'll be - he was 
> shooting digital so it's not as if he has to develop and scan the stuff.

We'll see; he's a good photographer, but he didn't have a price set for 
a folio of 4x6 prints (one copy of everything), which is generally 
traditional.  Many of us buy an entire set; he could have walked away 
with orders for several dozen if he'd been prepared.

Karen

>

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Original mid-19th century dresses or bodices with padding in the bodice
front are quite common.  I've found it on approximately 30%-40% of the
originals I've examined.  The most common version is a crescent shaped pad
that begins approximately halfway down the front armscye curve and ends
beneath the arm.  Properly fitted corsets from the mid-Victorian era raise
the bustline (back to where it was when you were "young and perky" <G>). If
your breast/upper chest tissue is soft, you can "sag" inside the corset.
This will create a horizontal fold in the front bodice beginning at the
armscye and pointing toward or slightly above the bust point.  The padding
fills in this hollow space and creates the nicely-rounded curve typical of
the silhouette of this period.  Your cup size has nothing to do with whether
you may or may not need the padding; I've had students that were an F cup
that needed it while a smaller cup size did not.  It's strictly a matter of
muscle tone and the fit of the corset.  Rolling the shoulder seam further to
the back usually does not have any effect, unless the bodice is too long
over the upper chest (between neckline and bustline).

You will also find many originals where the padding is an elongated oval
extending from the shoulder to below the bust; this padding usually does not
extend into the armscye.  This is more common on dresses from the 1840s and
early 1850s than on dresses later in the century.  In this case the padding
is used to increase and round the bustline to achieve the fashionable
silhouette.

I've also examined original dress shields from the period.  They look very
much like modern dress shields: a crescent-shaped piece of glazed or
rubberized fabric (usually linen) that is placed under the arm.  TSome are
single layer, others are double (one half on each side of the armscye seam);
they are not padded; and they do not extend beyond the bottom of the armscye
curve on to the front or back of the dress.

Carolann Schmitt
cschmitt@genteelarts.com
www.genteelarts.com
Citizens of the 1860s Conference - March 4-7, 2003



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Subject: [h-cost] Cavalier Help!
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Greetings and Salutations!

I have just found out that I will need to make a cavalier dress within the 
next few weeks.

The Good News: I am currently unemployed so as long as I am able to go on job 
interviews, I have all the time I want.  I have a very large fabric stash.  
My beau sews as well, so I have someone in the house to help me.

The Bad News: I have almost no lace (but there is a decent place in town I 
can stoke up at.)  Most of my books and notes are in storage.  The worst 
part, I have absolutely no idea where to start.

What I think I know: I need a shift/chemise, corset and farthinggale/hoops.  
The bodice and skirt are separate.  Pastel colors are acceptable.  Lace is 
rather appropriate.  (You see, I am suddenly hopeless!)

So, if you have some a website or pattern to recommend or would be willing to 
share your knowledge with me, I would greatly appreciate it.

Oh, did I mention I have until May 30 to get this accomplished, and that I 
have to fly with it?

Thank you in advance!
Kit

If you walk a mile in someone else's shoes, do you get to keep them? - 
Kenneth Cole
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Subject: [h-cost] Glove Etiquette
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Dear Kathleen,

>Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 08:03:22 -0400
>From: "Lloyd Mitchell" <rmitchell@washjeff.edu>
>Subject: Re: [h-cost] Etiquette - Not Really Off Topic
>
>One of the more amusing topics for me has been the correct use of gloves. 
>
> Another source points out " that if your hostess
>does not remove her gloves at the dining table, you are obliged to follow
>her example."
>Kathleen
>  
>
Oh, ICK!  
Eating with your gloves on.  
Yuck.

Next they'll recommend peas & honey.

>One of my favorite "use of gloves in movies" episodes is in "Amistad",
>Matthew McConaughey's character comes walking in, late for a formal
>dinner, carrying his gloves, and makes a formal point of putting his
>gloves on in order to eat.  It's as if the gloves were there just for
>eating as he didn't arrive with them on.  (I doubt they were going by
>the above suggestion of if your hostess leaves her gloves on you do to,
>or does that only apply to ladies anyway?)
>
>Katy Bishop, Vintage Victorian

See above.  Gross.


I've been doing nineteenth century either too much or not enough.
Eat with gloves on (shudder).

And I do have spare pairs of gloves; that's not it.


Ann in CT


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Dear Kathleen,

>Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 08:03:22 -0400
>From: "Lloyd Mitchell" <rmitchell@washjeff.edu>
>Subject: Re: [h-cost] Etiquette - Not Really Off Topic
>
>One of the more amusing topics for me has been the correct use of gloves. 
>
> Another source points out " that if your hostess
>does not remove her gloves at the dining table, you are obliged to follow
>her example."
>Kathleen
>  
>
Oh, ICK!  
Eating with your gloves on.  
Yuck.

Next they'll recommend peas & honey.

>One of my favorite "use of gloves in movies" episodes is in "Amistad",
>Matthew McConaughey's character comes walking in, late for a formal
>dinner, carrying his gloves, and makes a formal point of putting his
>gloves on in order to eat.  It's as if the gloves were there just for
>eating as he didn't arrive with them on.  (I doubt they were going by
>the above suggestion of if your hostess leaves her gloves on you do to,
>or does that only apply to ladies anyway?)
>
>Katy Bishop, Vintage Victorian

See above.  Gross.


I've been doing nineteenth century either too much or not enough.
Eat with gloves on (shudder).

And I do have spare pairs of gloves; that's not it.


Ann in CT


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Subject: [h-cost] back from CostumeCon
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My reaction was WOW.  This was my fifth CC and we could definately have
called it the h-costume con.  Met Teddy Thursday in the lobby while waiting
to go on one of the safari's (fabric and trims and books, oh my).  He was
wearing the mulit color sweater and I kept thinking I should know him.  When
it finally finally clicked in my brain I introduced my self.  Had a nice
chat with him in the hall later on with my daughter.  The dealers rooms were
great, Alter Years had it's own room.  And Margo, and Robyn, and, and etc.
We have already signed up for next year in Decatur. And be still my heart,
my daughter wants to join in the historical masquerade presentation our
group is planning.
Ask Robyn about not recognizing three of us in the SF&F masquerade Saturday
evening.  White makeup and black wigs make great disguises.
Still coming down from the fun, and we had to leave on Sunday afternoon
(darn) and missed the historical masq.

Genie
p.s. Some people were going to speak to the con chair about the photos.  A
number of us usally take all the pic's from the masquerades to have and
archive of the con.  Don't know if it will be possible with this one.

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Sheryl Nance-Durst wrote:

> I did pretty well myself in the novice category. It's the first time 
> that I had ever
> entered a masquerade and I won best novice workmanship, best of class in 
> novice,
> and got an honorable mention for my documentation. I was so excited!
> It was a black and white day dress from 1894.
> My doll got an award too. (but it was sf/fantasy, not historical).


	Good! I'm so glad you got those wins, you were marvelous. I 
could hardly tell a thing from out in the lobby, so I really 
didn't know too much of who won in the various categories. I 
loved your presentation, it was great! so now you'll have to 
work up a Journeyman entry. Atlanta is next year.
	-Judy Mitchell

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Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 21:27:43 -0500
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Danielle Nunn-Weinberg <dannw@mn.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] back from CostumeCon
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At 10:38 AM 4/22/2003 -0500, you wrote:
<snip>

>I did pretty well myself in the novice category. It's the first time that 
>I had ever
>entered a masquerade and I won best novice workmanship, best of class in 
>novice,
>and got an honorable mention for my documentation. I was so excited!
>It was a black and white day dress from 1894.
>My doll got an award too. (but it was sf/fantasy, not historical).

<snip>

>Sheryl Nance-Durst

Doh!  How could I forget to mention you!  I didn't actually get to meet you 
but I did recognize your name.

She looked stunning and it was hard to believe she was in the novice 
category.  I really hope pictures from the Con get posted soon.

Cheers,
Danielle

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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
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Greetings,

If anyone is trying to reach me, my email address changed this past 
week.  dannw@attbi.com will no longer work.  The new email is dannw@mn.rr.com

Cheers,
Danielle

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From: "Angharad ver' Reynulf" <dragonwolfcat@yahoo.com>
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just checking, since I'm apparently not receiving any
messages from the list.

Angharad

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Is there a member of this list that belongs to the following url?

http://www.hants.gov.uk/basdance/index3.html

Thanks,
Kit

If you walk a mile in someone else's shoes, do you get to keep them? - 
Kenneth Cole
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>> My favorite South Carolina fabric store is Ninety-Six Fabrics in
>> Ninety-Six, SC. 

>And where, please, is Ninety-Six?  


Guess it's just up the road from Eighty-Four, PA!  ;)

And it's famous for Eighty-Four Lumber!

Sorry, I just couldn't resist.....

Kathy



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Subject: [h-cost] Peter Pan Collars
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Hi Everyone.

Does anyone know the origin of the Peter Pan collar?  And what it was called 
before the invention of Peter Pan?

We were draping collars tonight in class and I started wondering about this. 
  I thought someone on this list would surely know the answer.  There are so 
many knowledable people here.

Thanks!
:)jessica


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Shashy put up a funny webpage of old wives' tales from a 1919 book called
"How to Have a Beautiful Child."  http://www.grannyscloset.net/beauchild.htm

It is so funny... I was a victim of old wives' tales from my mother when I
was pregnant with my first child.  She swore that my child would be marked
or deformed because I went to see the movie The Exorcist when I was
pregnant.  Mom said that if I saw something scary while pregnant and touched
a place on my body, especially my stomach, my child would be marked for
life.  LOL!!!  You should have seen me... 19 y.o. sitting in the theater
holding on to the arm-rests, scared to death to touch any part of my body.
Yes, the movie was scary, but I was more scared of marking my baby for life.

Penny Ladnier
Owner, The Costume Gallery & Costume Classroom
http://www.costumegallery.com
http://www.costumeclassroom.com
http://www.onlinecostumeball.com


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From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" <drewscph@post12.tele.dk>
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Subject: [h-cost] update of embroidery
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Hi.
I have updated on the dressdiary. The end is near of the embroidery.
Then someone has purchaised me to embroider an 18th century stomacher, and i
have made the design:
http://www.my-drewscostumes.dk/stomacherdesign
She wants me to make her a corset and a panier, she can not afford to get a
dress, but then she wanted me to make her a stomacher to match the corset.
I will really enjoy to make that stomacher........

Bjarne

Leif og Bjarne Drews
www.my-drewscostumes.dk

http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/


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Subject: [h-cost] class on researching mistakes
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I'm considering teaching a class at an uncoming event on research 
methods and mistakes.  I can handle the "how to do research" part just 
fine.  What I'd like is suggestions of mistakes people commonly make in 
doing research.  What sorts of things would you like to see included in 
such a class?

Thanks,
--Charlene

-- 
Music is now so foolish that I am amazed.  Everything that is wrong is 
permitted, and no attention is paid to what the old generation wrote as 
composition.  -- Samuel Scheidt (1651)

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From: "Kate M Bunting" <K.M.Bunting@derby.ac.uk>
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See www.bootlegbooks.com/Reference/PhraseAndFable/data/131.html 

Kate Bunting
Library, University of Derby

>>> mikes@dandy.net 04/18/03 04:03am >>>
>Hi, All. Kate, I am not familiar with the text of the Commonwealth Bible vis a vis the earlier Geneva or King James. I was always told that the >Commonwealth was a differently annotated Geneva, but I don't know. I will try and locate the source of the "breeches" thing as regards >the pattern, but I have had this in my mind for years. I'll
>also check my Geneva and KJ for any variations in Genesis that I can report. Mike T.
.

>
>
>> I've never heard that one before; I always understood the "Breeches Bible" was an edition that contained an oddity of translation >>whereby Adam & Eve are described as making "breeches" of fig leaves rather than the usual "aprons". A friend and I were shown a copy >>at St.David's Cathedral once.
>

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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Wed Apr 23 16:57:15 2003
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Subject: [h-cost] fabric suppliers?
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HI,
This is the first time I've posted anything on this list, although i've been 
recieving it for a little while and its been so cool see some of the things 
you guys have been making!! what a talented bunch of people!!
I am currently designing and making my wedding dress, which is going to be 
of somewhat of a medieval nature (although not strictly acurate in all 
things i think)
My problem at the moment is this, I am based in the UK (although I will be 
visiting Denver in june to visit my fiance) and I am trying to find some 
interesting silks to use, I want something a little unusual for the 
bodice.....ummm...so if anyone has any ideas of suppliers in the U.K or U.S 
or online it would be a huge help!
thanks!!
Jennie




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To: <h-needlework@ansteorra.org>, <h-costume@indra.com>
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Subject: [h-cost] Re: how to price blackwork
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I am considering offering my services in blackworking to the cast at the
Renn Faire I am just getting involved in. The problm is I have never done
anything like this before and have no idea what/how to price. I don't want
to make it so exorbitant that no one wants it, but I don't want to sell
myself short either. Can anyone here who has done this before (Bjarne?) give
me some pointers? Thanks

**********************
Rebecca Schmitt
aka Agnes Cabot, wife of Master Peter Cabot
BRF FOF; Guilde of St. Lawrence

A room without books is like a body without a soul
---Cicero

lotsofteapots@charter.net
**********************


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Assuming that only one or two types of source are valid and only examining 
those, instead of all information available.

Assuming all secondary sources are worthless.

Assuming that because other people in your group say something is true, it is.

Assuming that because people outside your group say something is true, it 
must be false.

Assuming that only designated "experts" should research and everyone else 
should simply accept what they say.

Using research and its results as a tool for social competition.

Assuming that what people wore in any given period can be boiled down to a 
short, strongly worded set of "facts" and that nothing beyond this is valid.

Assuming that an ultimate truth about the past can be always (or even 
usually!) be discerned.

Fran



At 11:32 PM 4/22/2003 -0500, you wrote:
>I'm considering teaching a class at an uncoming event on research methods 
>and mistakes.  I can handle the "how to do research" part just fine.  What 
>I'd like is suggestions of mistakes people commonly make in doing 
>research.  What sorts of things would you like to see included in such a class?

Lavolta Press Books on Historic Costuming
http://www.lavoltapress.com
Historic and Vintage Dance
http://www.lavoltapress.com/dance 

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Subject: Re: [h-cost] class on researching mistakes
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Charlene Charette <perronnelle@earthlink.net> said:

> I'm considering teaching a class at an uncoming event on research 
> methods and mistakes.  I can handle the "how to do research" part just 
> fine.  What I'd like is suggestions of mistakes people commonly make in 
> doing research.  What sorts of things would you like to see included in 
> such a class?
> 
> Thanks,
> --Charlene


Hi Charlene,

     I don't know if it's mistakes or misinterpretations - museum objects can 
be different than what is average, things are sometimes saved because they are 
special.  Those pieces of clothing that look like impossible sizes, or 
impossible to wear, may have been botched alterations.  It didn't work, the 
fabric is too good to throw it away, it lands in a trunk to be studied in a 
later century.

     Costumers and reenactors tend to be unusual people, and some want to seek 
out the exception instead fo the ordinary.  We can become so determined to find 
the incident where someone did someting once that we forget the average life.

     Collect the information and draw conclusions from there.  Don't just 
collect evidence that supports your own assumptions.  That can be just 
rationalizing what you want rather than learning new information.

     I don't know if that's what you're looking for as far as mistakes!

     -Carol

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Assuming that anything in print is true and accurate. 

Assuming that because it was done one way one time, it was always done
that way. Or in other words, one example proves validity. 



Karen

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True.
Also, assuming that because a lot of books say something, it has to be true.
You have to remember that a lot of writers just say what others said before,
trusting that their research was good. You lose a lot of the original
details that way, things get reinterpreted wrong or misquoted, or even maybe
the original author didn't interpret something the right way.

Hmm, also the problem with book that reinterpret things, such as the Peacock
book of costume, in which all the costumes are redrawn, most in the wrong
silhouette and a lot I can't find any evidence for.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Lavolta Press" <fran@lavoltapress.com>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Wednesday, April 23, 2003 4:49 PM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] class on researching mistakes


> Assuming that only one or two types of source are valid and only examining
> those, instead of all information available.
>
> Assuming all secondary sources are worthless.
>
> Assuming that because other people in your group say something is true, it
is.
>
> Assuming that because people outside your group say something is true, it
> must be false.
>
> Assuming that only designated "experts" should research and everyone else
> should simply accept what they say.
>
> Using research and its results as a tool for social competition.
>
> Assuming that what people wore in any given period can be boiled down to a
> short, strongly worded set of "facts" and that nothing beyond this is
valid.
>
> Assuming that an ultimate truth about the past can be always (or even
> usually!) be discerned.
>
> Fran
>
>
>
> At 11:32 PM 4/22/2003 -0500, you wrote:
> >I'm considering teaching a class at an uncoming event on research methods
> >and mistakes.  I can handle the "how to do research" part just fine.
What
> >I'd like is suggestions of mistakes people commonly make in doing
> >research.  What sorts of things would you like to see included in such a
class?
>
> Lavolta Press Books on Historic Costuming
> http://www.lavoltapress.com
> Historic and Vintage Dance
> http://www.lavoltapress.com/dance
>
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
>
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Cavalier Help!
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In a message dated 4/23/2003 4:22:37 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
Kitsune242@aol.com writes:


> What I think I know: I need a shift/chemise, corset and farthinggale/hoops.  
> 
> The bodice and skirt are separate.  Pastel colors are acceptable.  Lace is 
> rather appropriate.  (You see, I am suddenly hopeless!)
> 

Actually, most Cavalier bodices are boned to death and not corseted. I made 
the pattern for a 1660s bodice right from Jean Honnesette's book [had to 
adjust the boning pattern a little] and it looked great! I set the chemise 
sleeve into the bodice [under the cartridge pleated sleeve...which was not 
from the book. I hate her sleeve patterns. It was just a rectangle c-pleated 
into the armseye and gently gathered into a turned up cuff that came to just 
below the elbow] and faked the wide chemise neck that spilled over the 
horizontal neckline. It's just easier to control that way. It was for stage.
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From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" <drewscph@post12.tele.dk>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
References: <1d2.806de47.2bd7234d@aol.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Cavalier Help!
Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 23:44:16 +0200
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Hi,
I made a cavalier style dress many years ago. It was an early one from 1625.
It had a standing wired collar edged with lace i had taken from chinese
tablecloths. I starched the lace and i made cuffs to match it. The dress
consisted of an underskirt wich shows center front, a separate embroidered
stomacher wich was hooked to the sides of the overdress. The overdress
sleaves had 2 puffs and another sleave over them called a Virago Sleave. The
corset had large "tabs" wich was starched (not boned) to help support the
skirt wich was unnatural high. The skirt needed some petticoats to support
the skirt, and no farthingale or hoops was used in this time.
I used a pattern from a book called "Evolution of Fashion" pattern and cut
by Margot Hammilton Hill and Peter A Bucknell. This book is made for stage
costumes, but considering no patterns have survived from this period,
(except for some bodices) i will say, that they are pretty good. Only the
cut of the skirt, wich is cut like a sun, is not right in my oppinion, i
would say they cut the skirt straight and gathered the width into the
bodice.
This is the time where all women looks pregnant, well they were pregnant
pretty often, but it was the fashion to look this way, The men, showed their
expensive stomach's stoutly and proud, their waist was raised like the
womens.
I wish you good luck, and if you have more questions, just ask, and i shall
answer as good as i can.

Bjarne

Leif og Bjarne Drews
www.my-drewscostumes.dk

http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/
----- Original Message -----
From: <Kitsune242@aol.com>
To: <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Wednesday, April 23, 2003 12:59 AM
Subject: [h-cost] Cavalier Help!


> Greetings and Salutations!
>
> I have just found out that I will need to make a cavalier dress within the
> next few weeks.
>
> The Good News: I am currently unemployed so as long as I am able to go on
job
> interviews, I have all the time I want.  I have a very large fabric stash.
> My beau sews as well, so I have someone in the house to help me.
>
> The Bad News: I have almost no lace (but there is a decent place in town I
> can stoke up at.)  Most of my books and notes are in storage.  The worst
> part, I have absolutely no idea where to start.
>
> What I think I know: I need a shift/chemise, corset and
farthinggale/hoops.
> The bodice and skirt are separate.  Pastel colors are acceptable.  Lace is
> rather appropriate.  (You see, I am suddenly hopeless!)
>
> So, if you have some a website or pattern to recommend or would be willing
to
> share your knowledge with me, I would greatly appreciate it.
>
> Oh, did I mention I have until May 30 to get this accomplished, and that I
> have to fly with it?
>
> Thank you in advance!
> Kit
>
> If you walk a mile in someone else's shoes, do you get to keep them? -
> Kenneth Cole
> _______________________________________________
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>


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From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" <drewscph@post12.tele.dk>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: how to price blackwork
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 00:02:56 +0200
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Status: RO

Hi.
Well you shouldnt ask me, because i dont have it for a living. I know you
shall not sell yourself cheap, but i am in such a possition, that if people
payed me what i earn, they would never never be able to buy from me. And i
would never never do anything. And i have it as prime passion of all things,
so i say, that people should be able to buy.
I can give you an example, this stomacher, i have just made the design for.
http://www.my-drewscostumes.dk/stomacherdesign

 I am to embroider it to match a corset wich i also is going to make. For
this stomacher i will be payed 100 dollars. I know you say i am chrazy, but
i would rather die, if i didnt get any orders, because i love it and i am
glad that someone likes my things and wants to use it.
I told you you should not ask me, but this is the true story of my costume
living.

Bjarne


Leif og Bjarne Drews
www.my-drewscostumes.dk

http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/
----- Original Message -----
From: <lotsofteapots@charter.net>
To: <h-needlework@ansteorra.org>; <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Wednesday, April 23, 2003 10:39 PM
Subject: [h-cost] Re: how to price blackwork


> I am considering offering my services in blackworking to the cast at the
> Renn Faire I am just getting involved in. The problm is I have never done
> anything like this before and have no idea what/how to price. I don't want
> to make it so exorbitant that no one wants it, but I don't want to sell
> myself short either. Can anyone here who has done this before (Bjarne?)
give
> me some pointers? Thanks
>
> **********************
> Rebecca Schmitt
> aka Agnes Cabot, wife of Master Peter Cabot
> BRF FOF; Guilde of St. Lawrence
>
> A room without books is like a body without a soul
> ---Cicero
>
> lotsofteapots@charter.net
> **********************
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
>


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Subject: Re: [h-cost] back from CostumeCon
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 but I did get a workmanship award for my 
> handquilted petticoat, so I was happy.


Oooh! Pictures please? That's one of my "very near future projects"!

Dianne

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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] class on researching mistakes
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Status: RO

Charlene Charette wrote:

> I'm considering teaching a class at an uncoming event on research 
> methods and mistakes.  I can handle the "how to do research" part just 
> fine.  What I'd like is suggestions of mistakes people commonly make 
> in doing research.  What sorts of things would you like to see 
> included in such a class?
>
assuming that, because such and such a thing is done or exists in, say 
1600, and also in 1200, that it was also done/existed at all the times 
in between (assumption takes the place of concrete examples for 1300, 
1400, 1500)

liz young


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>         Good! I'm so glad you got those wins, you were marvelous. I could 
> hardly tell a thing from out in the lobby, so I really didn't know too 
> much of who won in the various categories. I loved your presentation, it 
> was great! so now you'll have to work up a Journeyman entry. Atlanta is 
> next year.
>         -Judy Mitchell


Thanks!
Unfortunately, Atlanta is too far for me to drive. I'll be in Des Moines in 
2006, though.
That's only 2 1/2 hours away from me.

Sheryl



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From: "Nancy Kiel" <nancy_kiel@hotmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] class on researching mistakes
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A big mistake is being unwilling to admit you are doing something against 
the historical evidence.  For example, if you have twelve primary sources 
that tell you everyone everywhere wore fuchsia farthingales on Twelfth 
Night, and you would rather die than wear one, wear want you like for 
Twelfth Night and say (should anyone be rude enough to inquire as to why you 
aren't wearing a fuchsia farthingale) that you hate fuchsia and farthingales 
and chose not to make one.  You can choose to be unhistorical, but be honest 
about it.



Nancy Kiel
nancy_kiel@hotmail.com
Never tease a weasel!
This is very good advice.
For the weasel will not like it
And teasing isn't nice.





>From: Charlene Charette <perronnelle@earthlink.net>
>Reply-To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
>To: H-Costume List <h-costume@indra.com>
>Subject: [h-cost] class on researching mistakes
>Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 23:32:46 -0500
>
>I'm considering teaching a class at an uncoming event on research methods 
>and mistakes.  I can handle the "how to do research" part just fine.  What 
>I'd like is suggestions of mistakes people commonly make in doing research. 
>  What sorts of things would you like to see included in such a class?
>
>Thanks,
>--Charlene
>
>--
>Music is now so foolish that I am amazed.  Everything that is wrong is 
>permitted, and no attention is paid to what the old generation wrote as 
>composition.  -- Samuel Scheidt (1651)
>
>_______________________________________________
>h-costume mailing list
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>http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume


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Well a Peter Pan collar is pretty much the same thing as a cavalier 
style large 'falling'
collar, at least draping/drafting wise...


On Tuesday, April 22, 2003, at 10:07 PM, jessica stier wrote:

>
>
> Hi Everyone.
>
> Does anyone know the origin of the Peter Pan collar?  And what it was 
> called before the invention of Peter Pan?
>
> We were draping collars tonight in class and I started wondering about 
> this.  I thought someone on this list would surely know the answer.  
> There are so many knowledable people here.
>
> Thanks!
> :)jessica
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Norwescon update (hey, couldn't make CostumeCon!)
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>Queen of Spades (ok, so I looked a lot like
>Maleficent...in midnight blue, black/silver and tons
>of beads) {clip: Styx's "Beware of the Queen of
>Spades}

I finally got a photo of the Lady Luck costume I did for BayCon a 
couple years back up online.  I really need to get a photo of this
one under good lighting.  Under the stage lights, it's stunning.  The
rhinestones are all Swarovski crystal and the applique edging is hologram
glitter.  And the tiara is a wire frame with cut crystal beads, rhinestones
and some gold-leafed polymer clay pieces.

http://gw.retro.com/employees/lee/Costume/LadyLuck.jpg

And the pseudo-edwardian I did for the SF Gay Pride Parade last year:

http://gw.retro.com/employees/lee/Costume/Edwardian.jpg

Lee M.Thompson-Herbert        lee@retro.com	      KoX 1995, SP4
Head Muso, White Rats Morris, Faultline Morris
Member, Knights of Xenu (1995).  Chaos Monger and Jill of All Trades.
"A head-on collision between Morticia Adams and Martha Stewart"
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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Lavolta Press <fran@lavoltapress.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] class on researching mistakes
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>
>      Costumers and reenactors tend to be unusual people, and some want to 
> seek
>out the exception instead fo the ordinary.  We can become so determined to 
>find
>the incident where someone did someting once that we forget the average life.

On the other hand, people sometimes confuse the "average" in their modern 
group with the historical average.



>      Collect the information and draw conclusions from there.  Don't just
>collect evidence that supports your own assumptions.  That can be just
>rationalizing what you want rather than learning new information.
>

It helps if people feel OK about wearing or not wearing something just 
because they want to, rather than having to defend themselves about it all 
the time.

Fran



Lavolta Press Books on Historic Costuming
http://www.lavoltapress.com
Historic and Vintage Dance
http://www.lavoltapress.com/dance 

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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: how to price blackwork
Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 18:31:32 -0500
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Thanks Bjarne - it gives me *something* to go off of. I usually don't even
look at prices on things like this because I know I can go home and do it
myself (given enough time, which is always at premium).

PS the stomacher is a beautiful design - I can't wait until you start
stitching!

**********************
Rebecca Schmitt
aka Agnes Cabot, wife of Master Peter Cabot
BRF FOF; Guilde of St. Lawrence

A room without books is like a body without a soul
---Cicero

lotsofteapots@charter.net
**********************



----- Original Message -----
From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" <drewscph@post12.tele.dk>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Wednesday, April 23, 2003 5:02 PM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: how to price blackwork


> Hi.
> Well you shouldnt ask me, because i dont have it for a living. I know you
> shall not sell yourself cheap, but i am in such a possition, that if
people
> payed me what i earn, they would never never be able to buy from me. And i
> would never never do anything. And i have it as prime passion of all
things,
> so i say, that people should be able to buy.
> I can give you an example, this stomacher, i have just made the design
for.
> http://www.my-drewscostumes.dk/stomacherdesign
>
>  I am to embroider it to match a corset wich i also is going to make. For
> this stomacher i will be payed 100 dollars. I know you say i am chrazy,
but
> i would rather die, if i didnt get any orders, because i love it and i am
> glad that someone likes my things and wants to use it.
> I told you you should not ask me, but this is the true story of my costume
> living.
>
> Bjarne
>
>
> Leif og Bjarne Drews
> www.my-drewscostumes.dk
>
> http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <lotsofteapots@charter.net>
> To: <h-needlework@ansteorra.org>; <h-costume@indra.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, April 23, 2003 10:39 PM
> Subject: [h-cost] Re: how to price blackwork
>
>
> > I am considering offering my services in blackworking to the cast at the
> > Renn Faire I am just getting involved in. The problm is I have never
done
> > anything like this before and have no idea what/how to price. I don't
want
> > to make it so exorbitant that no one wants it, but I don't want to sell
> > myself short either. Can anyone here who has done this before (Bjarne?)
> give
> > me some pointers? Thanks
> >
> > **********************
> > Rebecca Schmitt
> > aka Agnes Cabot, wife of Master Peter Cabot
> > BRF FOF; Guilde of St. Lawrence
> >
> > A room without books is like a body without a soul
> > ---Cicero
> >
> > lotsofteapots@charter.net
> > **********************
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > h-costume mailing list
> > h-costume@mail.indra.com
> > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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Greetings all!
I've been searching the web for a used copy of this book to no avail. I 
have found several good images on different sites , but I'd really like 
a copy of my own.
The owners of the original (or one of them) are selling repros, but 
they don't accept credit or debit cards and they don't have an order 
site. A few needlework merchants sell the repros, but at $45-$50 a pop 
it's a bit out of my range.
Does anyone on the list know where I can get a used copy, or one less 
expensively? I've checked Barnes and Noble, half.com and Amazon with no 
results.
If anyone has any brilliant ideas, please let me know.
Much thanks,
Laurie Gage
rlgage@adelphia.net

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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] 100% silk velvet?
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	<41224.162.119.64.111.1050339926.squirrel@webmail.inreach.com>
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This is a French company that has hand woven velvet. It is also
in the $100/yd category. And I believe they only produce figured velvet.
http://www.e-luxus-agnesalauzet.com/velours_us/index.htm



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Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 17:05:21 -0700
Subject: Re: [h-cost] 100% silk velvet?
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uh, it looks like it's $100 for a 6" square SAMPLE of the fabric.


On Wednesday, April 23, 2003, at 04:54 PM, martyr@gti.net wrote:

> This is a French company that has hand woven velvet. It is also
> in the $100/yd category. And I believe they only produce figured 
> velvet.
> http://www.e-luxus-agnesalauzet.com/velours_us/index.htm
>
>
>
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Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 17:08:58 -0700
From: Kimiko Small <kimiko@kimiko1.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] back from CostumeCon
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Hi all,

This question is for those who go to Costume Con. I have never been to one, 
but would love to go sometime in the near future.

You all talk about the competitions and what level people are in... how is 
this determined? Who decides who is an amateur, journeyman, or master? Is 
there info someplace on the competitions?

I have never done any competitions in costuming before. I live in costume 
wasteland between the Bay and LA, so this group is a big connection to the 
costuming world.

And I too am looking forward to more photos to drool over.

Thanks,
Kimiko


Kimiko Small
Costumer, Fiber Artist, Web Designer, Wife and Mother
kimiko@kimiko1.com; http://www.kimiko1.com

Graphic Intern at Costume Gallery
http://www.costumegallery.com

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Subject: Re: [h-cost] New Simplicity pattern book
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Carolann Schmitt" <cschmitt@genteelarts.com>
Subject: RE: [h-cost] New Simplicity pattern book


<snip>
> the bustline (back to where it was when you were "young and perky" <G>).
If
> your breast/upper chest tissue is soft, you can "sag" inside the corset.
> This will create a horizontal fold in the front bodice beginning at the
> armscye and pointing toward or slightly above the bust point.  The padding

<snip>

You can see a great example of this on a dress I recently made (I've been
meaning to make a pad to fill in this fold) -- I'm on the right:
http://demode.tweedlebop.com/images/gaskells2.jpg

- Kendra

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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Wed Apr 23 20:42:20 2003
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Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 17:41:52 -0700
Subject: Re: [h-cost] New Simplicity pattern book
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do you have any pictures of any pads themselves?  I'm very curious 
about this...

On Wednesday, April 23, 2003, at 05:32 PM, Kendra Van Cleave wrote:

> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Carolann Schmitt" <cschmitt@genteelarts.com>
> Subject: RE: [h-cost] New Simplicity pattern book
>
>
> <snip>
>> the bustline (back to where it was when you were "young and perky" 
>> <G>).
> If
>> your breast/upper chest tissue is soft, you can "sag" inside the 
>> corset.
>> This will create a horizontal fold in the front bodice beginning at 
>> the
>> armscye and pointing toward or slightly above the bust point.  The 
>> padding
>
> <snip>
>
> You can see a great example of this on a dress I recently made (I've 
> been
> meaning to make a pad to fill in this fold) -- I'm on the right:
> http://demode.tweedlebop.com/images/gaskells2.jpg
>
> - Kendra
>
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
>

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Subject: Re: [h-cost] back from CostumeCon
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 10:55:41 +1000
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> This is what happens when the convention goes out of the country; not
> many people attend, and ideas get backed up.  A lot of very experienced
> costumers came out of the woodwork to compete again.

On the other hand if it came to other countries more often people would come
to accept it and more people would attend from the other countries.  I felt
we had plenty of entries in the parades last year here in Australia.  The
actual attendance of the con was a bit low but the number of entries seemed
adequate.

Karen
-----
www.members.optusnet.com.au/smonster/

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Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 21:14:50 -0500 (CDT)
From: Robin Netherton <robin@shell.nightowl.net>
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] class on researching mistakes
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On Wed, 23 Apr 2003, Audrey Bergeron-Morin wrote:

> Also, assuming that because a lot of books say something, it has to be
> true. You have to remember that a lot of writers just say what others
> said before, trusting that their research was good.

Piggybacking on this: I have heard many people say they were taught in
school that if they find a fact/assertion/example in three different
sources, it's OK to use in a scholarly paper. That rule goes to hell in a
handbasket when it comes to costume history, because so many standard
sources simply repeat information from earlier sources. So, one early
error can get repeated in book after book, and becomes cemented into the
canon as fact. Today's students find that same statement in three places
and assume it's true, not realizing these are all secondary sources
repeating something in another, earlier secondary source.

I think half my work involves tracing back assumptions, author to author,
till I find the origin of the trail ... which, for medieval costume, is
far more likely to be in 1796 or 1834 than in any actual source from the
period.

--Robin


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Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 21:25:42 -0500
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Sheryl Nance-Durst <sherylnd@kc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] back from CostumeCon
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At 05:08 PM 4/23/03 -0700, you wrote:

>You all talk about the competitions and what level people are in... how is 
>this determined? Who decides who is an amateur, journeyman, or master? Is 
>there info someplace on the competitions?

Kimiko,

If you've never entered or won a major costume competition (national or 
regional level), then you are a novice. Once you've won a "best in class" 
award at the novice level, you move up to journeyman. Then you move up to 
master once you've won at the journeyman level. Anyone who is a 
professional must automatically compete at master level. Of course, if you 
feel confident of your costuming skills, you may enter at the higher 
levels. You are allowed to compete against the higher levels if you want to 
do so. You just can't compete BELOW your level. (Like a first-time 
competitor could enter at master-level if they choose. But an established 
master winner cannot enter as a novice.)

I hope that makes sense. :-)

Sheryl Nance-Durst

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Kimiko Small wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> This question is for those who go to Costume Con. I have never been to 
> one, but would love to go sometime in the near future.
>
> You all talk about the competitions and what level people are in... 
> how is this determined? Who decides who is an amateur, journeyman, or 
> master? Is there info someplace on the competitions?

There are standard guidelines that go somewhat like this:

Do you sew/costume professionally?  You are, by default, a master.
Otherwise:
New to costume competitions?  You're a novice.  If you win some major 
award, maybe you should move up to journeyman.
Feel you're a pretty good costumer, even if you haven't competed before? 
 Try journeyman.  If you win some major award, maybe you should move up 
to master.

>
> I have never done any competitions in costuming before. I live in 
> costume wasteland between the Bay and LA, so this group is a big 
> connection to the costuming world.

Give it a try.  There are competitions out there, although most of them 
are primarily at science fiction conventions and are therefore more 
SF/fantasy-oriented.  If you don't think you can go as far as Atlanta 
next year, it will be in Utah the year after, and there is a bid for CA 
in 2008.

>
> And I too am looking forward to more photos to drool over.

If someone else doesn't beat me to it, I'll keep updating the list as 
other lists post pictures.

Karen

>

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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Sheryl Nance-Durst <sherylnd@kc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Norwescon update (hey, couldn't make CostumeCon!)
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At 11:08 AM 4/22/03 -0700, you wrote:
>Our group, which comprised of two Journeyman Class,
>two Novices and the other three models/helpers was
>titles "5 of a Kind."  Molly and I were doing our
>first Journeyman entry and Bronwyn and Mary were
>Novices in their first ever contest. All 15th Century
>gowns with headpieces (mine was appropriately
>silly/menacing as the Queen of Spades)and a Joker with
>tights and jerkin.

<snip>

>*gloat* we won Best Workmanship in a Group and BEST IN
>SHOW (GROUP)!!!
>
>Angharad ver' Reynulf


Wow! that sounds like a fantastic presentation!

Sheryl


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>There are standard guidelines that go somewhat like this:
>
>Do you sew/costume professionally?  You are, by default, a master.
>Otherwise:
>New to costume competitions?  You're a novice.  If you win some major 
>award, maybe you should move up to journeyman.
>Feel you're a pretty good costumer, even if you haven't competed before? 
> Try journeyman.  If you win some major award, maybe you should move up 
>to master.


Also, if you do a group entry, everyone competes at the level of the
highest ranking person in the group.  A group of us, having had an
extremely weird idea on Saturday night, are planning a group entry and even
though none of us in it have ever won at a higher level than Novice, we
have to compete at Master level becasue I'm a pro.

I believe that SCA costume laurels are strongly encouraged to compete as
Masters, as well, but I'm not sure it's a requirement. 

Margo

"One Tough Costumer"
http://www.margospatterns.com
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Uh, *kof*, what about someone who's a laurel in the SCA?
(I mostly got it for needlework, I think, but probably a tidge in
costuming.  I have never done costuming professionally.)
--sue

Karen Heim wrote:
> 
> Kimiko Small wrote:
> 
> > Hi all,
> >
> > This question is for those who go to Costume Con. I have never been to
> > one, but would love to go sometime in the near future.
> >
> > You all talk about the competitions and what level people are in...
> > how is this determined? Who decides who is an amateur, journeyman, or
> > master? Is there info someplace on the competitions?
> 
> There are standard guidelines that go somewhat like this:
> 
> Do you sew/costume professionally?  You are, by default, a master.
> Otherwise:
> New to costume competitions?  You're a novice.  If you win some major
> award, maybe you should move up to journeyman.
> Feel you're a pretty good costumer, even if you haven't competed before?
>  Try journeyman.  If you win some major award, maybe you should move up
> to master.
> 
> >
> > I have never done any competitions in costuming before. I live in
> > costume wasteland between the Bay and LA, so this group is a big
> > connection to the costuming world.
> 
> Give it a try.  There are competitions out there, although most of them
> are primarily at science fiction conventions and are therefore more
> SF/fantasy-oriented.  If you don't think you can go as far as Atlanta
> next year, it will be in Utah the year after, and there is a bid for CA
> in 2008.
> 
> >
> > And I too am looking forward to more photos to drool over.
> 
> If someone else doesn't beat me to it, I'll keep updating the list as
> other lists post pictures.
> 
> Karen
> 
> >
> 
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
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From: Brenda Bell <webwarren@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Re: [h-cost] class on researching mistakes
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Robin Netherton <robin@shell.nightowl.net> wrote:

>I think half my work involves tracing back assumptions, author to author,
>till I find the origin of the trail ... which, for medieval costume, is
>far more likely to be in 1796 or 1834 than in any actual source from the
>period.

Anything specific about those years -- or did you mention them just as an 
example that things we assume to be "ancient" are relatively "recent" (I've 
found the same thing about some "traditional" Irish and American "folk" 
songs)...


Brenda
webwarren@earthlink.net


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Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 22:59:24 -0400
To: h-costume@indra.com
From: Brenda Bell <webwarren@earthlink.net>
Subject: Costume competitions (WAS: Re: [h-cost] back from CostumeCon)
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Karen Heim <axejudge@accessus.net> wrote:

>...There are [costuming] competitions out there, although most of them are 
>primarily at science fiction conventions and are therefore more 
>SF/fantasy-oriented.

Do be wary about the competitions at SF/F cons. Depending on the con, some 
of the competitions are more of a popularity contest, and some are more of 
a presentation/acting contest, than a costuming contest. (Be particularly 
wary of costume competitions held at "professionally-promoted" SF/F cons 
such as those run by Creation, Slanted Fedora, and that ilk. I've seen 
someone purchase an original-series STAR TREK top, crudely shove on a pair 
of pointed ears, walk on stage as if he were his mundane self, and yet win 
as "Spock" at a Creation con over competitors with well-thought-out, 
well-executed costumes and presentations.)

The competitions at the major *fan-run* cons (e.g., Shore Leave) tend to be 
better-run and more about skills and workmanship, though.


Brenda
webwarren@earthlink.net


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Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 22:58:56 -0400
From: Cozit / Liz <cozit@comcast.net>
To: margospatterns@yahoogroups.com, h-costume <h-costume@indra.com>
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Subject: [h-cost] Back from Costume Con
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Well, to be honest, I got back at about 2 am  on Tuesday morning... but 
having driven straight (whoever the idiot doing the scheduling for 
repair-work on the Ohio Turnpike outside Toledo who thinks that 5pm is 
an ideal time to take Jersey barriers off of flatbeds (remember, they do 
swing when they're lifted... limiting the lanes moving to *one* every 
time one goes up) ought to be strung up by the wires that were moving 
those things) from Chicago leaving at the equivalent of 11:30 on Monday 
morning...  well, my brain has only recently caught up with the rest of 
me... at least the part that wasn't busy telling me how to avoid what, 
and to get smart and pull over for 20 minutes during one particularly 
nasty downpour right around midnight.

I've been to *lots* of cons in the past... and this was my third Costume 
Con...  I would not be exaggerating to say that it was by far the best 
con I've ever been to as far as the people were concerned.  (ignoring 
the grumbling about certain glitches... especially the cancelled w/o 
warning classes and the Masquerades that went to midnight... equivalent 
to 1am East Coast time)

Thank you, thank you, thank you to those wonderful ladies who helped me 
out big time during my discussions.  I pass on to you now that I had 
quite a few compliments on the discussions... and since I mostly just 
said hi and got them rolling, the bulk of that goes to you (and those 
who spoke out from the audience).

I'm miffed I missed Teddy's story... and the gathering by only 10 
minutes or so... and I was still awake so I *could* have been there... 
oh well.  *I* got to hear Tom's play by play (anyone know who it was who 
was helping him out making us laugh?  I couldn't turn around that far 
easily) of the Iron Costumer competition...  which was good enough that 
a couple of us were seriously tempted to stage a coup and get them up 
there in place of the real announcer :-)

I got to see most of the Masquerade costumes... some closer than others. 
 Saw many things in the hall to envy and admire.  Listened to others 
talk about many interesting costuming topics (and actually managed to 
stay awake even for the slide shows that were way too dim for someone 
who hadn't had enough sleep).  And met so many people who "I wanna be 
like when I grow up" that I know I need more than two hands to count 
them up.  The oddest thing of all for me was that not only did I 
recognize a few people from the last CC I managed to get to, about 6 
years ago, but I had two who recognized me from back then... when I was 
a *total* newbie.

I took no pictures, having left my camera behind, and not remembering 
when I had time and the store was open to go and get a disposable or 
two... so now I'm waiting anxiously for it to be time to expect the CD 
of pictures I ordered to arrive, so I can look at some of the costumes 
on the computer again.

Sigh... now to try to figure out how I could make the trip down to 
Atlanta next year.... and whether I should take the whole family so my 
kids can visit with their cousins...  *g* Not sure whether it's a good 
thing or a bad thing that the Atlanta CC is going to be more than a week 
before the Georgia Ren. Faire opens...


-Liz   (rambling enough that I know I still don't have all my mind back :-)


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Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 22:29:30 -0500 (CDT)
From: Robin Netherton <robin@shell.nightowl.net>
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
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On Wed, 23 Apr 2003, Brenda Bell wrote:

> Robin Netherton <robin@shell.nightowl.net> wrote:
> 
> >I think half my work involves tracing back assumptions, author to author,
> >till I find the origin of the trail ... which, for medieval costume, is
> >far more likely to be in 1796 or 1834 than in any actual source from the
> >period.
> 
> Anything specific about those years -- or did you mention them just as
> an example that things we assume to be "ancient" are relatively
> "recent" (I've found the same thing about some "traditional" Irish and
> American "folk"  songs)...

1796: The publication of the first major history of English dress, titled
"A Complete View of the Dress and Habits of the People of England, from
the establishment of the Saxons in Britain to the present time:
Illustrated by engravings taken from the most authentic remains of
antiquity, to which is prefixed an introduction, containing a general
description of the ancient habits in use among mankind, from the earliest
period of time to the conclusion of the seventh century," by Joseph
Strutt.

1834: first of three editions of James Robinson Planche's "History of
British Costume from the Earliest Period to the Close of the Eighteenth
Century." Planche wrote other books, including a "new and improved"
version of Strutt, but this was his initial opus. Planche is responsible
for a large number of later misconceptions about medieval dress.

I showed some interesting case examples from these books, and others, in a
talk on the history of costume history this past weekend at CostumeCon. I
think some people from this list were there ;-)  I'll be giving it again
at KWCS in Denver, in October, with more slides and details.

--Robin



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Subject: [h-cost] Re: Margo's Costume Con Report (Shoemaking)
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Margo,

Please tell us more about the shoemaking book you bought.  I'm just getting 
into this area and would appreciate any recommendations.  I already have the 
MOL book but find it somewhat vague in a few areas.

Thanks,

Nancy Stengel Ulmer
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Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 22:57:49 -0500 (CDT)
From: Robin Netherton <robin@shell.nightowl.net>
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Back from Costume Con
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On Wed, 23 Apr 2003, Cozit / Liz wrote:

> Thank you, thank you, thank you to those wonderful ladies who helped
> me out big time during my discussions.  I pass on to you now that I
> had quite a few compliments on the discussions... and since I mostly
> just said hi and got them rolling, the bulk of that goes to you (and
> those who spoke out from the audience).

I had to miss these sessions, though I was hoping to go. I had to miss
almost everything in terms of programming, at least on Saturday, because I
was speaking myself nearly all day -- five lectures! I managed to make it
to Stevie Gamble's fur and leather session, and to most of Melanie
Wilson's dyeing class on Sunday (but missed her Anglo-Saxon on Saturday),
and to Karen (seamstrix)'s class on research methods. I think there were
really two cons going on at once -- the historic one secretively wrapped
inside the more conventional CostumeCon, with classes on modern methods
and material use.

> I got to see most of the Masquerade costumes... some closer than
> others. Saw many things in the hall to envy and admire.  Listened to
> others talk about many interesting costuming topics (and actually
> managed to stay awake even for the slide shows that were way too dim
> for someone who hadn't had enough sleep).

guilty...

> And met so many people who "I wanna be like when I grow up" that I
> know I need more than two hands to count them up.

I saw red H's everywhere I looked. I knew Drea, Danielle, Ann (Catelli)  
and Karen (seamstrix) already. Finally I got to meet in person a bunch of
Brits I practically felt I knew -- Teddy (and Tom), Melanie, Stevie. And I
met Kate McClure (who, bless her, let me use her room to stash stuff and
change clothes), both Allisons, Christine (Icegirl) and her friend Deanna,
Sheryl N-D, Judy Mitchell, others I am forgetting now. Liz, I think I
missed you! But after a while it was a blur.

I knew a lot of the St. Louis people already (including Genie and Karen
Heim) from having gone to a local costumer's guild meeting here in prep
for the Con, but I was completely blown away by the quantity and quality
(both!) of the costumes they brought. My mind boggles at people who can
produce this many incredible realizations of concepts so creative. I do
not think (or work) like this, so it was all fascinating to me. Dr.
Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band, the Three Little Maids, and the Peahen
Suit come to mind from the St. Louis group alone (and what were the names
of the marionette presentation, and the stained glass window? I've
forgotten).

People have already mentioned the two masquerades, which were a very
different sort of competition than I'm used to; much more of an emphasis
on stage show, with workmanship judged separately. My favorite event,
though, was the Future Fashion Folio. This happens in two parts: Designers
submit costume designs for futuristic or otherwise themed clothing, and
are judged and given awards for these designs in advance of the con. Then
the winning designs are published in a book, and volunteers can choose
designs to sew up in real fabric. These interpretations are then presented
fashion-show style, and also judged. Designers have the first right of
refusal on sewing their own designs, so if you've got a hankering to
design and make a creation, you can do that. There are then awards for
best costume made by its own designer, and also for best interpretation of
someone else's design. (I think I have this correct -- I hope one of the
more knowledgeable people will set me straight if I'm confused.) The
latter award went to H-Cost member Pierre Pettinger making a "Fractal
Robe" designed by H-Cost member Ann/Catelli, who took a standard medieval
garment and added extra gores on a fractal pattern, oooh my.

I don't plan on going to another CostumeCon for a while, as actually
*making* costumes is not really my thing anymore. It was fun to watch,
though. I'll certainly be at the St. Louis CC in, hmm, 2007 or so.

--Robin

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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Danielle Nunn-Weinberg <dannw@mn.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Back from Costume Con
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At 10:58 PM 4/23/2003 -0400, you wrote:
>I'm miffed I missed Teddy's story... and the gathering by only 10 minutes 
>or so... and I was still awake so I *could* have been there... oh 
>well.  *I* got to hear Tom's play by play (anyone know who it was who was 
>helping him out making us laugh?  I couldn't turn around that far easily) 
>of the Iron Costumer competition...  which was good enough that a couple 
>of us were seriously tempted to stage a coup and get them up there in 
>place of the real announcer :-)

Uh, that was me. <G>  Guilty as charged.  It was a lot of fun to be that 
silly....   It was a shame you missed Teddy's recitation - we were all 
holding our sides from laughing too hard.  It was nice to have met you at 
brunch!

Cheers,
Daniellle




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Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 23:20:00 -0500
From: Karen Heim <axejudge@accessus.net>
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Robin Netherton wrote:

>On Wed, 23 Apr 2003, Cozit / Liz wrote:
>
>
>I had to miss these sessions, though I was hoping to go. I had to miss
>almost everything in terms of programming, at least on Saturday, because I
>was speaking myself nearly all day -- five lectures! I managed to make it
>to Stevie Gamble's fur and leather session, and to most of Melanie
>Wilson's dyeing class on Sunday (but missed her Anglo-Saxon on Saturday),
>and to Karen (seamstrix)'s class on research methods. I think there were
>really two cons going on at once -- the historic one secretively wrapped
>inside the more conventional CostumeCon, with classes on modern methods
>and material use.
>
And I pretty much didn't have time to attend panels in either part.  I 
felt a little awkward introducing myself to any of you, so I mostly 
didn't - I can be shy; that's why I hang out with my friend Nora, who is 
very bold.  I did meet Teddy, though.

>
>I saw red H's everywhere I looked. 
>
And some people who should have been wearing them weren't.  What's up 
with that, folks; were you lurking, too?

>I knew Drea, 
>
Saw her, but was running from one thing to another, so we didn't meet 
(see above).

>Stevie
>
Listened to part of a conversation she was having in the con suite.

>Christine (Icegirl) 
>
We were in the same den in the Historical masquerade; if I hadn't been 
competing, I would have jumped in to help.

>
>Sheryl N-D
>
Who had a very nice dress in the masquerade.

> Judy Mitchell
>
Who told us all about her outfit; wish I'd seen the documentation.

>
>I knew a lot of the St. Louis people already (including Genie and Karen
>Heim) from having gone to a local costumer's guild meeting here in prep
>for the Con, but I was completely blown away by the quantity and quality
>(both!) of the costumes they brought.
>
I didn't even get to wear everything I brought!  I had an 1883 afternoon 
dress that I was hoping to show off - maybe in Atlanta.

> My mind boggles at people who can
>produce this many incredible realizations of concepts so creative. I do
>not think (or work) like this, so it was all fascinating to me. Dr.
>Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band, the Three Little Maids, and the Peahen
>Suit come to mind from the St. Louis group alone (and what were the names
>of the marionette presentation
>
Coeur Perdu in the fantasy and science fiction masq, Coeur Perdu part 
Deux in Historical (those marionettes were surprisingly heavy!).  Tried 
an experiment which, apparently, failed.

>and the stained glass window? I've
>forgotten).
>
Tempis Fugit.  Susan was so excited to be the one wearing the woman's 
outfit for a change; at Archon, she cross-dressed and had her sister 
wear the gown and surcote, but she couldn't make it to CC.  Susan put 
out a last-minute distress call, and Jim jumped in.

>
>
>People have already mentioned the two masquerades, which were a very
>different sort of competition than I'm used to; much more of an emphasis
>on stage show, with workmanship judged separately. 
>
We try to explain it to people as one-minute performance art.

>My favorite event,
>though, was the Future Fashion Folio. This happens in two parts: Designers
>submit costume designs for futuristic or otherwise themed clothing, and
>are judged and given awards for these designs in advance of the con. Then
>the winning designs are published in a book, and volunteers can choose
>designs to sew up in real fabric. These interpretations are then presented
>fashion-show style, and also judged. Designers have the first right of
>refusal on sewing their own designs, so if you've got a hankering to
>design and make a creation, you can do that. There are then awards for
>best costume made by its own designer, and also for best interpretation of
>someone else's design. (I think I have this correct -- I hope one of the
>more knowledgeable people will set me straight if I'm confused.) 
>
Right on target.  It's very exciting when you find out that a design you 
submitted was accepted; it's even better when someone decides that they 
want to build it for real (the bridal gown in this year's show was my 
design).

>The
>latter award went to H-Cost member Pierre Pettinger making a "Fractal
>Robe" designed by H-Cost member Ann/Catelli, who took a standard medieval
>garment and added extra gores on a fractal pattern, oooh my.
>
Incorrect, although I that Pierre's outfit was really neat (and, except 
for the jewels on his hat, came completely from materials already in his 
possession).  Best interpretation by designer went to Steve Swope for 
his peahen suit.  Best interpretation by nondesigner went to Kate 
Pollack for Spectator at a Formal Religious Ceremony.  The judge, Carol 
Inkpen (another St. Louis person), is not comfortable with public 
speaking, so she had me as the MC do the announcements.  I enjoyed doing 
that job.

>
>I don't plan on going to another CostumeCon for a while, as actually
>*making* costumes is not really my thing anymore. It was fun to watch,
>though. I'll certainly be at the St. Louis CC in, hmm, 2007 or so.
>
Excellent!  I hope our stories will encourage more H-costume members to 
attend.

Karen

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Subject: [h-cost] Book on shoemaking
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Hi Margo. Saw you had bought a book on shoemaking, and That made me curious.
Is it shoemaking from the bottom or fixing new shoes to make them look
"oldtime"?. Could you please give me the name of the book?
Hilsen fra
Britt Marie Halonen
Lulit Gahkkorluodda 8
9520 Kautokeino, Norway
bhalonen@trollnet.no
http://community.webshots.com/user/briha100

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Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 00:41:04 -0500 (CDT)
From: Robin Netherton <robin@shell.nightowl.net>
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Back from Costume Con
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On Wed, 23 Apr 2003, Karen Heim wrote:

> >The
> >latter award went to H-Cost member Pierre Pettinger making a "Fractal
> >Robe" designed by H-Cost member Ann/Catelli, who took a standard medieval
> >garment and added extra gores on a fractal pattern, oooh my.
> >
> Incorrect, although I that Pierre's outfit was really neat (and, except 
> for the jewels on his hat, came completely from materials already in his 
> possession).  Best interpretation by designer went to Steve Swope for 
> his peahen suit.  Best interpretation by nondesigner went to Kate 
> Pollack for Spectator at a Formal Religious Ceremony.

Which was splendid too. Pierre won something, though, didn't he? Or was I
just so dazzled by his (and Ann's) artistry that I mentally awarded him a
prize?

Karen (or anyone), will the results and names and things be posted
somewhere official?

--Robin


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From: =?iso-8859-1?q?N=20Kipar?= <nicolas_fouquet@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Cavalier Help!
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 --- AlbertCat@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 4/23/2003 4:22:37 PM Eastern
Standard Time, 
> Kitsune242@aol.com writes:
> 
> 
> > What I think I know: I need a shift/chemise, corset and farthinggale/hoops.
>  
> > 
> > The bodice and skirt are separate.  Pastel colors are acceptable.  Lace is 
> > rather appropriate.  (You see, I am suddenly hopeless!)
> > 
> 
> Actually, most Cavalier bodices are boned to death and not corseted. I made 
> the pattern for a 1660s bodice right from Jean Honnesette's book [had to 
> adjust the boning pattern a little] and it looked great! 

I hate to say this, but 1660s is not Cavalier style, and what exactly do you
mean with cavalier? 1630s or 1640s? It is true that bodices were boned back
then, but you can also wear stays and only ever so lightly boned bodices. The
cut of the 1630s & 40s is completely different to the 1660s. The waist line is
waaaayyy higher.

I set the chemise 
> sleeve into the bodice [under the cartridge pleated sleeve...which was not 
> from the book. I hate her sleeve patterns. It was just a rectangle c-pleated 
> into the armseye and gently gathered into a turned up cuff that came to just 
> below the elbow] and faked the wide chemise neck that spilled over the 
> horizontal neckline. It's just easier to control that way. It was for stage.

For stage I can understand well why you chose to fake it, but being someone who
wears that style (1660s) I ave to say it is very easy to control all the
layers, I never have any problems. I'd suggest you don't fake anything (and
please please don't sew lace onto the bodice - white lace that is - faking a
laced chemise, it is my pet hate :-)

Give me some more info and I see what I can dig up.

Nicole

=====
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Nicole Kipar M.A.
URL: http://www.kipar.org/
Email: nicole@kipar.org

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> What I think I know: I need a shift/chemise, 

Yes indeed.

corset 

Depends if you wnat to go for corset and lightly boned bodice or heavily boned
bodice. It appears the boned bodice version is more upperclass.

and farthinggale/hoops.  

Nope. Not at all. Depending on the level of society you want to represent
either a bumroll (not too big! I have seen dreadfully huge examples) or multi
layered petticoats.

> The bodice and skirt are separate. 

Yep, but I have seen many recreated gowns where they are sewn together. I
personally would not do that.

 Pastel colors are acceptable.  

No, not really. I went through my 1630s and 1640s folders and there are no
pastel colours (depending what you understand under pastel colours) except for
ivories. There are many blues and golden yellows. You also find greens and reds
and lots and lots of black.

Lace is 
> rather appropriate.  

It depends! What kind of lace are you talking about?

> So, if you have some a website or pattern to recommend or would be willing to
> share your knowledge with me, I would greatly appreciate it.

I'm happy to try as I said earlier, but need more info, see above and the other
mail.

Nicole

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>Oh, ICK!
>Eating with your gloves on.
>Yuck.
>
>Next they'll recommend peas & honey.

The Johnson boys eat peas with honey.
They have done so all their lives.
Makes the peas taste kind of funny,
But it keeps them on the knives.

(traditional American folksong)

         CarolynKayta Barrows
dollmaker, fibre artist, textillian
           www.FunStuft.com

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. My mind boggles at people who can
> produce this many incredible realizations of concepts so creative. I do
> not think (or work) like this, so it was all fascinating to me. Dr.
> Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band, the Three Little Maids, and the Peahen
> Suit come to mind from the St. Louis group alone (and what were the names
> of the marionette presentation, and the stained glass window? I've
> forgotten).

I would LOVE to see pics of the above-mentioned comstumes--especially the
Lonely Hearts Club Band, and the stained glass window. Someone PLEASE tell
me there are pics somewhere!

Dianne
>
> People have already mentioned the two masquerades, which were a very
> different sort of competition than I'm used to; much more of an emphasis
> on stage show, with workmanship judged separately. My favorite event,
> though, was the Future Fashion Folio. This happens in two parts: Designers
> submit costume designs for futuristic or otherwise themed clothing, and
> are judged and given awards for these designs in advance of the con. Then
> the winning designs are published in a book, and volunteers can choose
> designs to sew up in real fabric. These interpretations are then presented
> fashion-show style, and also judged. Designers have the first right of
> refusal on sewing their own designs, so if you've got a hankering to
> design and make a creation, you can do that. There are then awards for
> best costume made by its own designer, and also for best interpretation of
> someone else's design. (I think I have this correct -- I hope one of the
> more knowledgeable people will set me straight if I'm confused.) The
> latter award went to H-Cost member Pierre Pettinger making a "Fractal
> Robe" designed by H-Cost member Ann/Catelli, who took a standard medieval
> garment and added extra gores on a fractal pattern, oooh my.
>
> I don't plan on going to another CostumeCon for a while, as actually
> *making* costumes is not really my thing anymore. It was fun to watch,
> though. I'll certainly be at the St. Louis CC in, hmm, 2007 or so.
>
> --Robin
>
> _______________________________________________
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> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

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I mentioned this URL to the list in January; it belongs to the dance group for which our music group often plays. (Our own group's website is still under construction.)


Kate Bunting
Library, University of Derby

>>> Kitsune242@aol.com 04/23/03 05:08am >>>
Is there a member of this list that belongs to the following url?

http://www.hants.gov.uk/basdance/index3.html 

Thanks,
Kit

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Kit wrote :

Kate Bunting
Library, University of Derby

>>> I have just found out that I will need to make a cavalier dress within the 
next few weeks.

>What I think I know: I need a shift/chemise, corset and >farthinggale/hoops.  The bodice and skirt are separate.  Pastel colors are >acceptable.  Lace is rather appropriate.  (You see, I am suddenly >hopeless!)

Assuming you mean 1630s, the "look" is much softer and more flowing than earlier (or later) styles. You only need a short-waisted corset, no hoops, but unless you are generously proportioned you may need a bum-roll to give the necessary "bulky" appearance. The bodice and skirt don't have to be separate, but if you make the style of bodice with a tabbed waist it's probably most convenient to do so. The lace would be attached to the shift or neckwear rather than to the dress itself.


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From: "Lloyd Mitchell" <rmitchell@washjeff.edu>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
References: <000a01c3091f$fee718a0$6701a8c0@GENTEELARTS>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] New Simplicity pattern book
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 07:48:46 -0400
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Thank you Carolann. I had figured that for the Simplicity pattern  they were
intending a rounder bustline, which the effect of the padding would have.I
have one gown and three bodices from this time period and none of them have
the padding as you have described it. At least two of the pieces were"home
grown" and perhaps the sewers were unaware that high fashion required the
additional build up.(Or that ample bosoms made it redundant and maybe a tad
uncomfortable.
Kathleen
----- Original Message -----
From: "Carolann Schmitt" <cschmitt@genteelarts.com>
To: "'Historical Costume'" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2003 6:39 PM
Subject: RE: [h-cost] New Simplicity pattern book


> Original mid-19th century dresses or bodices with padding in the bodice
> front are quite common.  I've found it on approximately 30%-40% of the
> originals I've examined.  The most common version is a crescent shaped pad
> that begins approximately halfway down the front armscye curve and ends
> beneath the arm.  Properly fitted corsets from the mid-Victorian era raise
> the bustline (back to where it was when you were "young and perky" <G>).
If
> your breast/upper chest tissue is soft, you can "sag" inside the corset.
> This will create a horizontal fold in the front bodice beginning at the
> armscye and pointing toward or slightly above the bust point.  The padding
> fills in this hollow space and creates the nicely-rounded curve typical of
> the silhouette of this period.  Your cup size has nothing to do with
whether
> you may or may not need the padding; I've had students that were an F cup
> that needed it while a smaller cup size did not.  It's strictly a matter
of
> muscle tone and the fit of the corset.  Rolling the shoulder seam further
to
> the back usually does not have any effect, unless the bodice is too long
> over the upper chest (between neckline and bustline).
>
> You will also find many originals where the padding is an elongated oval
> extending from the shoulder to below the bust; this padding usually does
not
> extend into the armscye.  This is more common on dresses from the 1840s
and
> early 1850s than on dresses later in the century.  In this case the
padding
> is used to increase and round the bustline to achieve the fashionable
> silhouette.
>
> I've also examined original dress shields from the period.  They look very
> much like modern dress shields: a crescent-shaped piece of glazed or
> rubberized fabric (usually linen) that is placed under the arm.  TSome are
> single layer, others are double (one half on each side of the armscye
seam);
> they are not padded; and they do not extend beyond the bottom of the
armscye
> curve on to the front or back of the dress.
>
> Carolann Schmitt
> cschmitt@genteelarts.com
> www.genteelarts.com
> Citizens of the 1860s Conference - March 4-7, 2003
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Thu Apr 24 08:24:17 2003
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To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Peter Pan Collars
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 08:27:22 -0400
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Jessica, This is not evidence but a theory. This style collar was popular in
the 1950's when the original musical production of Peter Pan became a huge
hit. Mary Martin's costume featured a cute collar that was widely repeated
in fashions for young misses. The collars were used on blouses as well a
separate bands to be worn with sweaters.
So that is my 'take' on the origin.
Kathleen                                                                    
                                                                            
                                                                            
                                                                            
                                                                            
                                                                            
                                                                            
                                                                            
                                                                            
                                                                            
                                                                            
                                                                            
                                                                      -----
Original Message -----
From: "jessica stier" <jessicastier@hotmail.com>
To: <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Wednesday, April 23, 2003 1:07 AM
Subject: [h-cost] Peter Pan Collars


>
>
> Hi Everyone.
>
> Does anyone know the origin of the Peter Pan collar?  And what it was
called
> before the invention of Peter Pan?
>
> We were draping collars tonight in class and I started wondering about
this.
>   I thought someone on this list would surely know the answer.  There are
so
> many knowledable people here.
>
> Thanks!
> :)jessica
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Thu Apr 24 08:42:12 2003
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	<002001c309d8$7d101de0$7882c418@mad.chartermi.net>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: how to price blackwork
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 08:45:42 -0400
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After many years in doing this kind of job on the 'cheap', I finally came up
with the idea of checking the market to see what it was...or might
be...going for in the commercial venues.  That is providing any company was
doing it.  This price became my going price startingpoint. Then there was
the matter of "what the market will bear". This estimate then gets figured
into how much of my time will be needed and how fascinating and fulfilling
the Project will be to me personally.  Since I can't always to expect the
buying public to pay me for my hobby, I settle on a selling price that
recompenses me for some of the time, my out of pocket expenses, and the
artistic effort they presumably are looking for in placing the order in the
first place. If they are expecting a lot for little cash, I have and do
suggest they can find it somewhere if they look hard enough and maybe in a
sale bin if they are lucky.
I do not lack for time employment, and can set my own pace.
Kathleen                                                                    
                                                                            
                                                                            
                                                                            
                                                                            
                                                   ----- Original
Message -----
From: <lotsofteapots@charter.net>
To: <h-needlework@ansteorra.org>; <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Wednesday, April 23, 2003 4:39 PM
Subject: [h-cost] Re: how to price blackwork


> I am considering offering my services in blackworking to the cast at the
> Renn Faire I am just getting involved in. The problm is I have never done
> anything like this before and have no idea what/how to price. I don't want
> to make it so exorbitant that no one wants it, but I don't want to sell
> myself short either. Can anyone here who has done this before (Bjarne?)
give
> me some pointers? Thanks
>
> **********************
> Rebecca Schmitt
> aka Agnes Cabot, wife of Master Peter Cabot
> BRF FOF; Guilde of St. Lawrence
>
> A room without books is like a body without a soul
> ---Cicero
>
> lotsofteapots@charter.net
> **********************
>
>
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Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 08:27:50 -0500 (CDT)
From: Robin Netherton <robin@shell.nightowl.net>
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Back from Costume Con
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On Thu, 24 Apr 2003, Dianne & Greg Stucki wrote:

> I would LOVE to see pics of the above-mentioned comstumes--especially
> the Lonely Hearts Club Band, and the stained glass window. Someone
> PLEASE tell me there are pics somewhere!

Many people were taking photos, and there was an official photographer; I
don't know whether the official photos will be webbed. Some people and
groups have started putting up some photos already, but I'll bet it'll be
a week or two before we see most of them. Here's what I've seen so far:

	http://www.geocities.com/siwcostumers/calendar.htm

And another group here, but mostly pretty blurry:

	http://www.snapfish.com/login
	enter address: ecgphoto@yahoo.com
	password: starwars

Mostly Star Wars here:

	http://www.sithcamaro.com/events/cc21/index.htm

Various others, including the Iron Costumer competition:
	http://www.tk604.com/~mike/costumecon03/Costume%20Con%202003.html

I'm also hoping we might see photos at the con website, which is
<http://www.jennifarse.com/cc2003>, but since they never managed to update
the site with the actual programming, I'm not holding my breath. (Karen,
if you're reading this, it would be nice to have the *actual* programming
listed on the website, as a record, for people who want to know who
actually taught what.)

I was in my GFD and various overdresses for most of Saturday, but I don't
know if anyone caught a picture. I was not in any of the competitions. I
did get photographed several times in my Friday Social dress, and even got
a hall costume award for that, which someone had to explain to me (yes, I
was stunned ... the place was full of lovely 20's stuff).

--Robin


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Greetings to all you lucky folk who made it to Costume Con.

The official web site <http://www.costume-con.org> is managed by Betsy
Delaney. Once she gets unpacked, gets the laundry done, sorts through
her email and catches up on sleep (how does one do that with a 2 1/2
year old?), she will be updating the web site with pics. If you look at
other years on the site, you'll see that the photos are the "official"
photos, so some of this will depend upon the "official" photographer.

I know it is hard to wait, but there are plenty of folks who will be
putting up their own photos to keep you jazzed until Betsy gets the
official ones up.

Hope this helps,

MD/Marged
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From: "Lisa Sinervo" <lisa-list@threadneedlest.com>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
References: 
	<20030423170002.31570.41491.Mailman@blackstar.ansteorra.org><002001c309d8$7d101de0$7882c418@mad.chartermi.net>
	<009701c30a5f$6ba12680$6d5183d1@rmitchellras>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: how to price blackwork
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 06:51:46 -0700
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a package pricing deal including bartering works well sometimes as you get
cash and something else valuable to you that someone else might have put
time into.   Blackwork for cash and a top hat, or brake job if its for a
mechanic, or computer consulting etc.... might not work for strangers, but
does up what you can get for your work occasionally.

Lisa


----- Original Message -----
From: "Lloyd Mitchell" <rmitchell@washjeff.edu>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2003 5:45 AM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: how to price blackwork


> After many years in doing this kind of job on the 'cheap', I finally came
up
> with the idea of checking the market to see what it was...or might
> be...going for in the commercial venues.  That is providing any company
was
> doing it.  This price became my going price startingpoint. Then there was
> the matter of "what the market will bear". This estimate then gets figured
> into how much of my time will be needed and how fascinating and fulfilling
> the Project will be to me personally.  Since I can't always to expect the
> buying public to pay me for my hobby, I settle on a selling price that
> recompenses me for some of the time, my out of pocket expenses, and the
> artistic effort they presumably are looking for in placing the order in
the
> first place. If they are expecting a lot for little cash, I have and do
> suggest they can find it somewhere if they look hard enough and maybe in a
> sale bin if they are lucky.
> I do not lack for time employment, and can set my own pace.
> Kathleen
>
>
>
>
>                                                    ----- Original
> Message -----
> From: <lotsofteapots@charter.net>
> To: <h-needlework@ansteorra.org>; <h-costume@indra.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, April 23, 2003 4:39 PM
> Subject: [h-cost] Re: how to price blackwork
>
>
> > I am considering offering my services in blackworking to the cast at the
> > Renn Faire I am just getting involved in. The problm is I have never
done
> > anything like this before and have no idea what/how to price. I don't
want
> > to make it so exorbitant that no one wants it, but I don't want to sell
> > myself short either. Can anyone here who has done this before (Bjarne?)
> give
> > me some pointers? Thanks
> >
> > **********************
> > Rebecca Schmitt
> > aka Agnes Cabot, wife of Master Peter Cabot
> > BRF FOF; Guilde of St. Lawrence
> >
> > A room without books is like a body without a soul
> > ---Cicero
> >
> > lotsofteapots@charter.net
> > **********************
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > h-costume mailing list
> > h-costume@mail.indra.com
> > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume


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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Thu Apr 24 09:56:34 2003
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Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 09:55:57 -0400 (EDT)
From: Katy Bishop <vintage@shore.net>
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: RE: [h-cost] New Simplicity pattern book
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The use of bodice padding also went pretty late into the century.  My
wedding gown, an antique gown from about 1892-93 had padding in an oval
shape, with a cut-out for the armhole, that was lightly padded.  (I
removed it when I realised I had enough natural padding to fill out the
bodice).

What I love are the men's vests of the mid-19th century with removable
pads for rounding out the chest, with a buttonhole in the lining
to attach the pad, and easily remove it for laundering.

Katy

On Tue, 22 Apr 2003, Carolann Schmitt wrote:

>Original mid-19th century dresses or bodices with padding in the bodice
>front are quite common.  I've found it on approximately 30%-40% of the
>originals I've examined.  The most common version is a crescent shaped pad
>that begins approximately halfway down the front armscye curve and ends
>beneath the arm.  Properly fitted corsets from the mid-Victorian era raise
>the bustline (back to where it was when you were "young and perky" <G>). If
>your breast/upper chest tissue is soft, you can "sag" inside the corset.
>This will create a horizontal fold in the front bodice beginning at the
>armscye and pointing toward or slightly above the bust point.  The padding
>fills in this hollow space and creates the nicely-rounded curve typical of
>the silhouette of this period.  Your cup size has nothing to do with whether
>you may or may not need the padding; I've had students that were an F cup
>that needed it while a smaller cup size did not.  It's strictly a matter of
>muscle tone and the fit of the corset.  Rolling the shoulder seam further to
>the back usually does not have any effect, unless the bodice is too long
>over the upper chest (between neckline and bustline).
>
>You will also find many originals where the padding is an elongated oval
>extending from the shoulder to below the bust; this padding usually does not
>extend into the armscye.  This is more common on dresses from the 1840s and
>early 1850s than on dresses later in the century.  In this case the padding
>is used to increase and round the bustline to achieve the fashionable
>silhouette.
>
>I've also examined original dress shields from the period.  They look very
>much like modern dress shields: a crescent-shaped piece of glazed or
>rubberized fabric (usually linen) that is placed under the arm.  TSome are
>single layer, others are double (one half on each side of the armscye seam);
>they are not padded; and they do not extend beyond the bottom of the armscye
>curve on to the front or back of the dress.
>
>Carolann Schmitt
>cschmitt@genteelarts.com
>www.genteelarts.com
>Citizens of the 1860s Conference - March 4-7, 2003
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>h-costume mailing list
>h-costume@mail.indra.com
>http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
>

Katy Bishop, Vintage Victorian
vintage@shore.net                www.VintageVictorian.com
     Custom reproduction gowns of the Victorian Era.
      Publisher of the Vintage Dress Series books.

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Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 09:03:56 -0500
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Sheryl Nance-Durst <sherylnd@kc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: Margo's Costume Con Report (Shoemaking)
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At 11:21 PM 4/23/03 -0400, you wrote:
>Margo,
>
>Please tell us more about the shoemaking book you bought.  I'm just getting
>into this area and would appreciate any recommendations.  I already have the
>MOL book but find it somewhat vague in a few areas.
>
>Nancy Stengel Ulmer

Nancy,
I'm not Margo, but I would recommend "Make Your Own Shoes" by Mary Wales
Loomis.  Tells you how to buy a pair of cast-off shoes at a thrift store, 
tear them
apart for the heels and steel supports, and then create your own shoes from the
ground up using your sewing machine and leather cement. The shoes look very
professional, but they are rather modern-looking.

There are a couple of other shoemaking books on the market, including the one
Margo had on her table.  "Crafting handmade shoes" and " Simple shoemaking"
by Sharon Raymond are (if I remember correctly) books on making shoes
without heels. The shoes are simple to make, but not so professional-looking.
Of course, this might be what you need if you're doing some older 
historical periods.

Sheryl Nance-Durst

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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Thu Apr 24 10:33:38 2003
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From: "Lisa Sinervo" <lisa-list@threadneedlest.com>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: Margo's Costume Con Report (Shoemaking)
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 07:45:52 -0700
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There is a glossy coffee table book called "Handmade Shoes for Men" by
Laszlo Vass & Magda Molnar which shows all the steps for making modern mens
shoes by hand from the timber for the last to the oriental carpeted boutique
they are for sale, because it is aimed at the coffee table market it is
chock full of glossy pictures.  I love it!

Lisa

----- Original Message -----
From: "Sheryl Nance-Durst" <sherylnd@kc.rr.com>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2003 7:03 AM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: Margo's Costume Con Report (Shoemaking)


> At 11:21 PM 4/23/03 -0400, you wrote:
> >Margo,
> >
> >Please tell us more about the shoemaking book you bought.  I'm just
getting
> >into this area and would appreciate any recommendations.  I already have
the
> >MOL book but find it somewhat vague in a few areas.
> >
> >Nancy Stengel Ulmer
>
> Nancy,
> I'm not Margo, but I would recommend "Make Your Own Shoes" by Mary Wales
> Loomis.  Tells you how to buy a pair of cast-off shoes at a thrift store,
> tear them
> apart for the heels and steel supports, and then create your own shoes
from the
> ground up using your sewing machine and leather cement. The shoes look
very
> professional, but they are rather modern-looking.
>
> There are a couple of other shoemaking books on the market, including the
one
> Margo had on her table.  "Crafting handmade shoes" and " Simple
shoemaking"
> by Sharon Raymond are (if I remember correctly) books on making shoes
> without heels. The shoes are simple to make, but not so
professional-looking.
> Of course, this might be what you need if you're doing some older
> historical periods.
>
> Sheryl Nance-Durst
>
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume


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	Thu, 24 Apr 2003 15:34:20 BST
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 15:34:20 +0100 (BST)
From: =?iso-8859-1?q?N=20Kipar?= <nicolas_fouquet@yahoo.com>
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Subject: [h-cost] CostumeCon & other con congrats
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Congratulations to all who have won some award or mention at one or other of
the costume cons!

Looking forward to see many photos, can hardly wait.

Congratulations just simply to ALL who went there, had a good time and wore
lots of luvverly costumes.

How did Teddy do in the masquerade????? What about 'Mr Betsy'?

Nicole

=====
"Brains, not Bombs"
http://www.stopthewar.org.uk/

Nicole Kipar M.A.
URL: http://www.kipar.org/
Email: nicole@kipar.org

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Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 10:05:21 -0500 (CDT)
From: Robin Netherton <robin@shell.nightowl.net>
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Back from Costume Con
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A few minutes ago, I wrote:

> Various others, including the Iron Costumer competition:
> 	http://www.tk604.com/~mike/costumecon03/Costume%20Con%202003.html

I was just browsing through these and found a couple of nice ones of Teddy
and the other two judges for the Iron Costumer competition:
  http://www.tk604.com/~mike/costumecon03/dsc05276.jpg
  http://www.tk604.com/~mike/costumecon03/dsc05275.jpg

Here's an op art Burgundian from the Friday social that made me wish I
*had* done "Mod-ieval" so we could stand next to each other and blind
everyone ;-) This is an h-cost member, but I can't remember her name!
Identify yourself, please?
  http://www.tk604.com/~mike/costumecon03/dsc05137.jpg

Christine in her fake Fortuny silk dress she made in the last moments
before getting on the plane, and her friend ... Christine, tell the world
about these dresses:
  http://www.tk604.com/~mike/costumecon03/dsc05140.jpg

On this page, first row, third photo:
  http://www.snapfish.com/thumbnailshare/AlbumID=6781787/t_=3381905
...you'll find Danielle (in the black) with another 20's person (in blue).
Danielle's dress belonged to Tom's ?great-aunt? grandmother? -- he brought
this and another over from England for her to wear. It was fun watching
Teddy and Tom dress Danielle up with the various accessories they'd just
happened to bring along. The fourth picture has a better view of Danielle
and a lousy one of me.

On that same page, in the seventh row, you'll see Danielle again, in red.

Even further down: The 2nd through 8th of the photos labeled F&SF
Masquerade are from the "Court of the Crimson King" presentation; the
woman in the yellow is the Fire Witch. The moth scenario just after that
was a stunner too.

A couple of rows down is Dr. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band. The twist
here is that when they turn around, you see logos on their backs: the
green is 7-Up, the purple is Grape Nehi, the orange is Orange Crush, and
the red is Dr. Pepper. The costumes had some wonderful detail, including
vintage bottlecaps for the buttons; the epaulets are huge pull-tabs.

At the end of the same row is one of my favorites: The Digital Revolution.
Full French Revolution costume with copious use of CDs, glowing circuitry,
etc. The curly wig is made of videotape.

Next row, third photo, is (I think) Tom, in b/w Italian Ren.

In the first full row labeled "Future Fashion Folio,"  the third photo is
the "Death's Bride" gown with skeleton motifs that Karen Heim designed. In
the next row, the first photo is Pierre Pettinger in Ann's design of the
fractal robe.

I'm sure there are other h-cost-linked people in this set, particularly
the various Elizabethan hall costumes and the historical masquerade
entries, but you'll have to identify yourselves! I'm running out of names,
and my computer loads much too slowly.

--Robin


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on 4/23/03 10:23 PM, h-costume-request@indra.com at
h-costume-request@indra.com wrote:

> This is a French company that has hand woven velvet. It is also
> in the $100/yd category. And I believe they only produce figured velvet.
> http://www.e-luxus-agnesalauzet.com/velours_us/index.htm
> 
> 
WOW!!!! The fabric is gorgeous. But am I the only one who thinks the
patterns shown on their site are ugly? They do weave to your design, though!
Wouldn't that be wonderful, to have a custom pattern made? Sigh.

Gail Finke


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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Back from Costume Con
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On Thu, 24 Apr 2003 00:41:04 -0500 (CDT)
 Robin Netherton <robin@shell.nightowl.net> wrote:
> 
> On Wed, 23 Apr 2003, Karen Heim wrote:
> 
> > Which was splendid too. Pierre won something, though,
> didn't he? Or was I
> just so dazzled by his (and Ann's) artistry that I
> mentally awarded him a
> prize?
> 

He was actually announcing awards - the cash prizes for the
category he and Sandy sponsored:  best design with
architectural influences.

> Karen (or anyone), will the results and names and things
> be posted
> somewhere official?

Yes, they will be listed on www.costume-con.org
once Betsy gets a chance to decompress, and gets lists from
all masquerade directors.  There will also eventually be
pictures of all entries, I believe.

Karen
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From: Robin Netherton <robin@shell.nightowl.net>
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] CostumeCon & other con congrats
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On Thu, 24 Apr 2003, [iso-8859-1] N Kipar wrote:

> How did Teddy do in the masquerade????? What about 'Mr Betsy'?

Teddy sewed frantically on Mr. Betsy throughout the con, first hoping to
wear it to the F&SF masquerade, then hoping he might finish it for a hall
costume. He didn't get enough of it done to wear, though he did henna his
hair red on Friday night (and the bathroom did *not* explode this time).
He seemed quite undisturbed, though, as he has another con in mind for
presenting it.

Mr. Betsy, it seems, is a character in some SF book I haven't read. The
character dresses up as Queen Elizabeth, and so is a natural for Teddy :-)
The gown has promise to be sensational; I watched him sewing hundreds of
pearls on guards of slashed black velvet over red satin.

I am still trying to figure out how he got a small costume shop's worth of
stuff in his luggage.

--Robin


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From: =?iso-8859-1?q?N=20Kipar?= <nicolas_fouquet@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] CostumeCon & other con congrats
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Awww.... so no piccies yet, alright, that means I'll have to get another
whip-cracking sewing weekend in before whatever next con it is scheduled for
:-)

It IS a stunner I bet it'll be grand.

Thanks for sending all those early pix and the commentary, have been ogling all
the wonderful costumes, what a feast for the eye!!!!

Nicole

 --- Robin Netherton <robin@shell.nightowl.net> wrote: > 
> On Thu, 24 Apr 2003, [iso-8859-1] N Kipar wrote:
> 
> > How did Teddy do in the masquerade????? What about 'Mr Betsy'?
> 
> Teddy sewed frantically on Mr. Betsy throughout the con, first hoping to
> wear it to the F&SF masquerade, then hoping he might finish it for a hall
> costume. He didn't get enough of it done to wear, though he did henna his
> hair red on Friday night (and the bathroom did *not* explode this time).
> He seemed quite undisturbed, though, as he has another con in mind for
> presenting it.
> 
> Mr. Betsy, it seems, is a character in some SF book I haven't read. The
> character dresses up as Queen Elizabeth, and so is a natural for Teddy :-)
> The gown has promise to be sensational; I watched him sewing hundreds of
> pearls on guards of slashed black velvet over red satin.
> 
> I am still trying to figure out how he got a small costume shop's worth of
> stuff in his luggage.
> 
> --Robin
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume 

=====
"Brains, not Bombs"
http://www.stopthewar.org.uk/

Nicole Kipar M.A.
URL: http://www.kipar.org/
Email: nicole@kipar.org

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> Mr. Betsy, it seems, is a character in some SF book
> I haven't read. The
> character dresses up as Queen Elizabeth, and so is a
> natural for Teddy :-)
> The gown has promise to be sensational; I watched
> him sewing hundreds of
> pearls on guards of slashed black velvet over red
> satin.
> 


Mr. Betsy is in a series by Julian May about Pliocene
Exiles:  The Many Colored Land, The Golden Torc, The
Non-Born King and The Adversary.  (All published
between 1981-1984).  Very spiff costume concept and I
definitely wanna see pics when Teddy's done!

(I never wanted to do that one, I wanted to do one of
Tanu)

Angharad

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From: Robin Netherton <robin@shell.nightowl.net>
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] CostumeCon & other con congrats
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On Thu, 24 Apr 2003, Angharad ver' Reynulf wrote:

> Mr. Betsy is in a series by Julian May about Pliocene Exiles:  The
> Many Colored Land, The Golden Torc, The Non-Born King and The
> Adversary.  (All published between 1981-1984).  Very spiff costume
> concept and I definitely wanna see pics when Teddy's done!
> 
> (I never wanted to do that one, I wanted to do one of Tanu)

Like this?

http://www.ireadh.demon.co.uk/cguk/ccxvdisp/page5.html

And yes, that's Teddy :-)

--Robin


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Subject: [h-cost] RE: Peter Pan Collars
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Thanks for the thoughts on the Peter Pan Collar origins.  I have a couple of 
ideas to look into...  The idea that it is similar to the cavalier style 
collars in very interesting.  I am going to look into that more.  I also 
will work backwards from the production of Peter Pan in the 1950's.

This couldn't be the first time, in history, that this collar surfaced, 
could it?

Just a little tangent brought on by the creative juices of draping.
Thanks!
:) jessica


>From Kathleen:
>Jessica, This is not evidence but a theory. This style collar was popular 
>in
>the 1950's when the original musical production of Peter Pan became a huge
>hit. Mary Martin's costume featured a cute collar that was widely repeated
>in fashions for young misses. The collars were used on blouses as well a
>separate bands to be worn with sweaters.
>So that is my 'take' on the origin."

From: Heather Meadows:
"Well a Peter Pan collar is pretty much the same thing as a cavalier
style large 'falling'
collar, at least draping/drafting wise..."


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Status: RO

Tried Acanthus Books?

Actually, if you've got Google as a search engine, try hunting it down on
that. Marvy thing, Google. Can take the wierdest stuff you may throw at
it and still find treasures. 

I don't have the Acanthus site here, but found it on Google. For those
interested in domestic history and cookery, this is a fascinating place
and highly dangerous to your pocketbook. They do accept credit cards and
sell new and used.

Arlys

On Wed, 23 Apr 2003 14:27:22 -0400 rob and laurie gage
<randl@adelphia.net> writes:
> Greetings all!
> I've been searching the web for a used copy of this book to no 
> avail. I 
> have found several good images on different sites , but I'd really 
> like 
> a copy of my own.
> The owners of the original (or one of them) are selling repros, but 
> they don't accept credit or debit cards and they don't have an order 
> 
> site. A few needlework merchants sell the repros, but at $45-$50 a 
> pop 
> it's a bit out of my range.
> Does anyone on the list know where I can get a used copy, or one 
> less 
> expensively? I've checked Barnes and Noble, half.com and Amazon with 
> no 
> results.
> If anyone has any brilliant ideas, please let me know.
> Much thanks,
> Laurie Gage
> rlgage@adelphia.net
>


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Subject: Re: [h-cost] New Simplicity pattern book
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Status: RO

I wonder if this padding was a regional thing.  I have been collecting for
about 30 years and have never found padding in any of the items for women.
Many of the things were directly from old family trunks. Even the pieces
with Paris labels. One oddity for the turn of the 20th Century is a corset
cover that has rows of ruffles front and back.  It was in a "wedding box"
and its use was pretty obvious. My areas of collecting have been central New
England and SW Pa.
I do have examples of padding in gents garments, including the example given
here.
Kathleen
----- Original Message -----
From: "Katy Bishop" <vintage@shore.net>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2003 9:55 AM
Subject: RE: [h-cost] New Simplicity pattern book


>
> The use of bodice padding also went pretty late into the century.  My
> wedding gown, an antique gown from about 1892-93 had padding in an oval
> shape, with a cut-out for the armhole, that was lightly padded.  (I
> removed it when I realised I had enough natural padding to fill out the
> bodice).
>
> What I love are the men's vests of the mid-19th century with removable
> pads for rounding out the chest, with a buttonhole in the lining
> to attach the pad, and easily remove it for laundering.
>
> Katy
>
> On Tue, 22 Apr 2003, Carolann Schmitt wrote:
>
> >Original mid-19th century dresses or bodices with padding in the bodice
> >front are quite common.  I've found it on approximately 30%-40% of the
> >originals I've examined.  The most common version is a crescent shaped
pad
> >that begins approximately halfway down the front armscye curve and ends
> >beneath the arm.  Properly fitted corsets from the mid-Victorian era
raise
> >the bustline (back to where it was when you were "young and perky" <G>).
If
> >your breast/upper chest tissue is soft, you can "sag" inside the corset.
> >This will create a horizontal fold in the front bodice beginning at the
> >armscye and pointing toward or slightly above the bust point.  The
padding
> >fills in this hollow space and creates the nicely-rounded curve typical
of
> >the silhouette of this period.  Your cup size has nothing to do with
whether
> >you may or may not need the padding; I've had students that were an F cup
> >that needed it while a smaller cup size did not.  It's strictly a matter
of
> >muscle tone and the fit of the corset.  Rolling the shoulder seam further
to
> >the back usually does not have any effect, unless the bodice is too long
> >over the upper chest (between neckline and bustline).
> >
> >You will also find many originals where the padding is an elongated oval
> >extending from the shoulder to below the bust; this padding usually does
not
> >extend into the armscye.  This is more common on dresses from the 1840s
and
> >early 1850s than on dresses later in the century.  In this case the
padding
> >is used to increase and round the bustline to achieve the fashionable
> >silhouette.
> >
> >I've also examined original dress shields from the period.  They look
very
> >much like modern dress shields: a crescent-shaped piece of glazed or
> >rubberized fabric (usually linen) that is placed under the arm.  TSome
are
> >single layer, others are double (one half on each side of the armscye
seam);
> >they are not padded; and they do not extend beyond the bottom of the
armscye
> >curve on to the front or back of the dress.
> >
> >Carolann Schmitt
> >cschmitt@genteelarts.com
> >www.genteelarts.com
> >Citizens of the 1860s Conference - March 4-7, 2003
> >
> >
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >h-costume mailing list
> >h-costume@mail.indra.com
> >http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
> >
>
> Katy Bishop, Vintage Victorian
> vintage@shore.net                www.VintageVictorian.com
>      Custom reproduction gowns of the Victorian Era.
>       Publisher of the Vintage Dress Series books.
>
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
>

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<<<am I the only one who thinks the
patterns shown on their site are ugly? >>>

        I agree that some of them are not to my taste, but if I had the
money I could see a sofa covered in that white and dark red Grenadine
sitting in a state of honor in my living room (covered with cats, of
course).

Lalah
Never give up, Never surrender
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References: <001401c30997$0b1086d0$4096fea9@CPQ21932199711>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] update of embroidery
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 12:35:58 -0400
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Bjarne. I look forward to seeing your design develop! I had to 'knock off'
three last month (as I shook my magic wand) but these were for theatre and a
LOT of cheating. Your embroidery is true fine art for me. I like your
'canvas'.
Kathleen
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" <drewscph@post12.tele.dk>
To: <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Wednesday, April 23, 2003 8:51 AM
Subject: [h-cost] update of embroidery


> Hi.
> I have updated on the dressdiary. The end is near of the embroidery.
> Then someone has purchaised me to embroider an 18th century stomacher, and
i
> have made the design:
> http://www.my-drewscostumes.dk/stomacherdesign
> She wants me to make her a corset and a panier, she can not afford to get
a
> dress, but then she wanted me to make her a stomacher to match the corset.
> I will really enjoy to make that stomacher........
>
> Bjarne
>
> Leif og Bjarne Drews
> www.my-drewscostumes.dk
>
> http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
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>

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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Thu Apr 24 13:03:37 2003
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] FW: new magazine for costume/vintage business community
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Greetings All!

I am going through a bunch of my old e-mail...  I was wondering, Robin (or 
anyone else for that matter) did anything ever come of this Vintage Fashion 
magazine?  (There is a response from Robin down below.)

Thanks,
Kit

If you walk a mile in someone else's shoes, do you get to keep them? - 
Kenneth Cole

In a message dated 2/25/2003 11:21:54 PM Pacific Standard Time, 
robin@shell.nightowl.net writes:


> Surely I'm not the only one who remembers Julia!
> 
> She posted a query to this list in September 2002 asking what magazines
> and publications were out there that costumers read. She identified
> herself as a writer. After a couple of replies in which various people
> bemoaned the general gap in the literature, someone asked Julia if she
> were thinking of starting one. She said she hadn't been, but now that the
> idea had come up, it was worth thinking about. Then ensued a conversation
> about advertisers, subscribers, and how to find and reach people
> interested in historic costume (from its many various angles). You can
> find the thread(s) in the archives, starting with the subject line
> "magazines and publications."
> 
> I'm pretty sure we asked her to stay in touch if she ever got something
> off the ground. Therefore I was delighted to get her email tonight,
> because it means she actually took that information and ran with it. I'll
> be sending her my address -- after she replies to my private email to her,
> in which I ask for her assurance that the address is not for sale
> elsewhere, but to be used only for the purpose she describes.
> 
> --Robin

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Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 13:20:06 -0400
From: IceGirlNIN@aol.com
To: h-costume@indra.com (Historical Costume)
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: h-costume Digest, Vol 2, Issue 169
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It would be nice indeed to have custom-woven fabric...but at $107 per SAMPLE, I'm afraid it's not for me.  What I really want is 2 yards of custom-woven cotton or silk brocade <g> I can't find anything I like that's "period" and matches (i.e. isn't green or red) the rest of my gown for an Elizabethan forepart!

Christine

In a message dated 4/24/2003 9:42:59 AM Eastern Standard Time, gailscott@eos.net writes:

> WOW!!!! The fabric is gorgeous. But am I the only one who thinks the
> patterns shown on their site are ugly? They do weave to your design, though!
> Wouldn't that be wonderful, to have a custom pattern made? 
> Sigh.
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>http://www.snapfish.com/thumbnailshare/AlbumID=6781787/t_=3381905

Grr, that URL won't work for me, even after I signed up for a Snapfish
account.  I really wanted to see that set.

Lee M.Thompson-Herbert        lee@retro.com	      KoX 1995, SP4
Head Muso, White Rats Morris, Faultline Morris
Member, Knights of Xenu (1995).  Chaos Monger and Jill of All Trades.
"A head-on collision between Morticia Adams and Martha Stewart"
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From: Lil Sorepaws <sorepaws@yahoo.com>
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Subject: [h-cost] handmade shoes
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<snip>

In reference to the handmade shoe book by Raymond .. I have it ... um ..
its NOT for the beginner or even close (IMHO .. but then I am the one who
goes by the instruction booklet and then wonders why things fit funny ;)
.. I was SO excited when I got it then went - ACK- when I tried to figure
out how to make the shoes match my feet .. I gave up and bought a pair of
chinese slippers to decorate.  SIGH.

- Lil (still having shoe nightmares)

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Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 12:36:56 -0500 (CDT)
From: Robin Netherton <robin@shell.nightowl.net>
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] FW: new magazine for costume/vintage business community
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On Thu, 24 Apr 2003 Kitsune242@aol.com wrote:

> I am going through a bunch of my old e-mail...  I was wondering, Robin
> (or anyone else for that matter) did anything ever come of this
> Vintage Fashion magazine?  (There is a response from Robin down
> below.)

A few weeks ago, Julia told me that she's expecting the first issue will
be released in late May. You might still be able to get on the list for a
free first issue if you email her at <JAzo478796@aol.com>.

--Robin

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Subject: [h-cost] OT Update on Multi regional DVDs
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For those of you in the US who were wondering about the UK & European DVDs,
it would seem that many of the DVD players are restricted by software rather
than hardware. If you search on  model number & manufacturers name multi
regional and either patch or hack you can often download the relative
software and all should be well.

(No guarantees thought :))

Mel
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Subject: [h-cost] Costume Con Notes, Photos, etc
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I'd best contribute to the growing CC21 reports, since I was told to "tell the world" about the fake-Fortuny dress I made, as well as my friend's vintage 60's dress!

I had an absolute blast the entire weekend.  It was so much fun to dress up and show off the costumes I'd made (and the wench outfit I didn't!), and have people nearby who know what it's like to...well, costume.  
The fake-Fortuny dress I made is possibly my crowning achievement thus far in actual textile-embellishment.  It was a ton of work to do, but it turned out well.  It may actually be a tad loose on me; I think I may take the side-seams in a TINY bit so that it's a little more form-fitting.  Anyhow, I used a resource at costumes.org in order to pleat the fabric; basically, I had my mom help me twist the whole length of fabric until it resembled a very tightly twisted rope.  Then I boiled it for ten minutes, and finally, put it into a stocking leg and threw it into the dryer for about 5 (50-minute) cycles.
My friend's vintage 60's dress (hers was the gray A-line one trimmed with feathers at the cuffs) was made by her aunt during the 60's, so it's certainly accurate!  

Both masquerades were a blast, even though during the historic masquerade my presentation was nearly scratched (the costume is currently on the list to be overhauled).  It was definitely a lot of fun to pose for pictures, afterwards!
I was only able to attend three programs: the historic documentation lecture, the A-B-C's of historic research lecture, and Cybercostuming.  Maybe I'll get to more programs next time (yeah right, if I have my way I'll be competing in both masquerades and maybe even the Future Fashion Show).  
In other news...Robin, I don't suppose you'd be willing to e-mail me some of your surcoat notes?  I missed it because of tech on Saturday (my tech scheduled for: 12:30.  When tech rehearsal actually began: 1:30.  My historic pre-judge sheduled for: 2.  Actual time: 2:40 or so.  Actual tech for SF&F: 3:20 or so).  I'm dying to make a historically accurate kirtle and sideless surcoat, and my research thus far has yielded very little.

Christine
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Costume Con Notes, Photos, etc
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On Thu, 24 Apr 2003 13:54:45 -0400
 IceGirlNIN@aol.com wrote:
> Both masquerades were a blast, even though during the
> historic masquerade my presentation was nearly scratched
> (the costume is currently on the list to be overhauled).
>  It was definitely a lot of fun to pose for pictures,
> afterwards!
> I was only able to attend three programs: the historic
> documentation lecture, the A-B-C's of historic research
> lecture, and Cybercostuming.  Maybe I'll get to more
> programs next time (yeah right, if I have my way I'll be
> competing in both masquerades and maybe even the Future
> Fashion Show).  

Now you see why I didn't get to many panels.  I was in both
masquerades and the Future Fashion Show.  The first CC I
went to (10) I saw people doing that and thought, "There's
no way I would try to cram that much into one con!".
 Within a couple of years, though, I was doing exactly that
- hmmm . . . I must think I have energy or something (or am
just a glutton for punishment).

Karen
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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Thu Apr 24 14:11:05 2003
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Who's up for going to Costume College (August 1-3 in
L.A.), and shall we again use red "H"s to identify
h-costume list members?

Dawn
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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Thu Apr 24 14:20:34 2003
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Now that CostumeCon is over...
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At 11:11 AM 4/24/2003 -0700, you wrote:
>Who's up for going to Costume College (August 1-3 in
>L.A.), and shall we again use red "H"s to identify
>h-costume list members?
>
>Dawn


I have been pondering going to this event, as I went several years ago and 
it is only a four hour drive from me. I could even visit with friends...

Where is the online info for this? And if I do go, I will need to share a 
room, so is there a roommate program like before?

Kimiko



Kimiko Small
Costumer, Fiber Artist, Web Designer, Wife and Mother
kimiko@kimiko1.com; http://www.kimiko1.com

Graphic Intern at Costume Gallery
http://www.costumegallery.com

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From: Robin Netherton <robin@shell.nightowl.net>
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On Thu, 24 Apr 2003, Lee Thompson-Herbert wrote:

> >http://www.snapfish.com/thumbnailshare/AlbumID=6781787/t_=3381905
> 
> Grr, that URL won't work for me, even after I signed up for a Snapfish
> account.  I really wanted to see that set.

Try the login I posted earlier:

http://www.snapfish.com/login
        enter address: ecgphoto@yahoo.com
        password: starwars 

--Robin


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Hello,
I have enjoyed the pictures you all posted from costume con. It looks as you
had a lot of fun and a lot of merry company. It is such a joy to be in the
company with other costume freaks, right?
It shows in the pictures.
Thanks for the look.

Bjarne


Leif og Bjarne Drews
www.my-drewscostumes.dk

http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/


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From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" <drewscph@post12.tele.dk>
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Subject: [h-cost] silk thread
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Hi, i browsed google and searched for chenille thread.
Then i found this place: http://www.aurorasilk.com/shop/silk_knityarn.shtml
Would you know, that they have a lot of colours to choose from in silk
chenille?
Oh my, i am going to get some of that. Their silk floss looks fabulous
two.........

Bjarne

Leif og Bjarne Drews
www.my-drewscostumes.dk

http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/


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From: "Carolann Schmitt" <cschmitt@genteelarts.com>
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Subject: RE: [h-cost] New Simplicity pattern book
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<<I wonder if this padding was a regional thing.  I have been collecting for
about 30 years and have never found padding in any of the items for women.>>

Kathleen,
I don't think so.  My area of study is primarily 1850-1870 (although I'll
look at anything!). Although I don't have a large personal collection, in 35
years I've probably looked at (best guesstimate here) 500+ dresses/bodices.
Most of these have been American and east of the Mississippi, with about 5%
documented to Europe and other 5% documented to the western USA.  The 30%
figure I mentioned seems to hold true no matter what area of the country.
500+ dresses is not a very large sampling when you take into consideration
how many dresses existed during this period, but the precentage of padded
bodices I've seen thus far seem to indicate it was relatively common.

Some one else asked about photos.  I do have some, but (a) don't have
permission to post them on the Internet, and (b) don't have the technical
expertise to do it if I did.  If I find a link to any images that show the
padding I'll mention them here.

I love the gentlemen's vests with removable padding also!

Carolann Schmitt
cschmitt@genteelarts.com
www.genteelarts.com
Citizens of the 1860s Conference - March 4-7, 2004


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I have been doing some reseach about corsets, as I intend to make some. I did come across sources that indicates waist in the size of 15-16 inchs. Are these sources true or is it exaggeration and wishfull thinking? What would be a reasonable compression? I have a 26 inch waist and I can almost close the 22 inch of the rack corset I bought last year without discomfort.

Tania



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In a message dated 4/24/03 6:12:51 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
tania_gr17@yahoo.com writes:

> I have been doing some reseach about corsets, as I intend to make some. I 
> did come across sources that indicates waist in the size of 15-16 inchs. 
> Are these sources true or is it exaggeration and wishfull thinking? What 
> would be a reasonable compression? I have a 26 inch waist and I can almost 
> close the 22 inch of the rack corset I bought last year without discomfort.

This might sound mean, or blunt.  Take a tape measure, measure out 16".  See 
how tiny that is?  Even if you *can* get your waist that small, it can't be 
healthy.  

Christine
Who is an advocate of corsets, so long as the compression isn't more than 6" 
smaller than a woman's natural waist size!
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>Try the login I posted earlier:

D'oh.  Missed that part.  My husband got up at 5am to pack his car for
a roadtrip.  He finally left at about 8:30am.  My sleep schedule is just
*all* screwed up now.

Lee M.Thompson-Herbert        lee@retro.com	      KoX 1995, SP4
Head Muso, White Rats Morris, Faultline Morris
Member, Knights of Xenu (1995).  Chaos Monger and Jill of All Trades.
"A head-on collision between Morticia Adams and Martha Stewart"
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Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 18:27:41 -0400 (EDT)
From: Katy Bishop <vintage@shore.net>
To: Carolann Schmitt <cschmitt@genteelarts.com>
Subject: RE: [h-cost] New Simplicity pattern book
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I will see if I can find any bodices in my collection with the padding
and post some pictures.

Katy

On Thu, 24 Apr 2003, Carolann Schmitt wrote:

><<I wonder if this padding was a regional thing.  I have been collecting for
>about 30 years and have never found padding in any of the items for women.>>
>
>Kathleen,
>I don't think so.  My area of study is primarily 1850-1870 (although I'll
>look at anything!). Although I don't have a large personal collection, in 35
>years I've probably looked at (best guesstimate here) 500+ dresses/bodices.
>Most of these have been American and east of the Mississippi, with about 5%
>documented to Europe and other 5% documented to the western USA.  The 30%
>figure I mentioned seems to hold true no matter what area of the country.
>500+ dresses is not a very large sampling when you take into consideration
>how many dresses existed during this period, but the precentage of padded
>bodices I've seen thus far seem to indicate it was relatively common.
>
>Some one else asked about photos.  I do have some, but (a) don't have
>permission to post them on the Internet, and (b) don't have the technical
>expertise to do it if I did.  If I find a link to any images that show the
>padding I'll mention them here.
>
>I love the gentlemen's vests with removable padding also!
>
>Carolann Schmitt
>cschmitt@genteelarts.com
>www.genteelarts.com
>Citizens of the 1860s Conference - March 4-7, 2004
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>h-costume mailing list
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>

Katy Bishop, Vintage Victorian
vintage@shore.net                www.VintageVictorian.com
     Custom reproduction gowns of the Victorian Era.
      Publisher of the Vintage Dress Series books.

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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Thu Apr 24 18:26:46 2003
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This is from Betsy Delaney, Costume Con web mistress:


When I have access to the official photos and the participant/awards
lists, I'll be putting everything online. Hopefully, the rest of the
lists will arrive the end of this week, so I can get that info up at
least.

Generally speaking, it takes at least 6 weeks to get all the photos.
Having the official video in my hands helps identify the images, and
that sometimes takes longer. I wouldn't look for photos on the site
until at least the beginning of June, if not longer.

OTOH, if anyone has questions about the process, please send email to
Costume-Con@Costume-Con.org, and I'll be happy to help in any way I can!

Also watch out for an overhaul of the site navigation structure, coming
later this year.

Cheers,

Betsy Delaney
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A 15 inch circle has a 5 inch diameter.

Think about it.

MD/Marged
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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Thu Apr 24 18:31:04 2003
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From: "Cynthia Abel" <brujne@creighton.edu>
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Victorian Corsets
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Tania:

Please remember that corsets didn't meet in the back--the edge to edge gap
was often 2 inches or more so "almost closing" sounds like you have a
workable corset. Historians are discounting that 15-16" waist of Scarlett
O'Hara and I've seen few ads or claims in old catalog reprints of corsets
being sold with that waist size. Most "off the rack" corsets started with
waist measurements of 20 " and up and bust measurements of 32" and up for
those meant for grown women. Most "Misses" sized wear seems to be what we
call "juniors" now and it was sized for shorter, slighter wearers--the
giveaway is that skirt lengths were a tad shorter and the cut a bit boxier.
But most people in the corset-wearing era probably were slighter in build as
they didn't eat as much, got more exercise in day-to-day living, and didn't
usually live long enough to put on those middle-age pounds.  Required
clothing weighed more, people had to walk more just to get from point A to
point B and most people had to grow or raise everything they ate so there
wasn't the convience of eating the minute one was hungry.

Of course, just as now, women would squeeze and/or diet themselves into a
smaller size to meet the illustrated ideal.  Think of the photos you see of
impossibly tiny waists as about as much the normal female as models in
fashion magazines today.  And photos could be posed and retouched to conform
to the fashionable ideal back then, the same as today.

Hope this helps

Cindy Abel


----- Original Message -----
From: "Tania Gruning" <tania_gr17@yahoo.com>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2003 5:08 PM
Subject: [h-cost] Victorian Corsets


>
> I have been doing some reseach about corsets, as I intend to make some. I
did come across sources that indicates waist in the size of 15-16 inchs. Are
these sources true or is it exaggeration and wishfull thinking? What would
be a reasonable compression? I have a 26 inch waist and I can almost close
the 22 inch of the rack corset I bought last year without discomfort.
>
> Tania
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
> The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo.
> _______________________________________________
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>

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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Thu Apr 24 18:31:22 2003
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From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" <drewscph@post12.tele.dk>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Victorian Corsets
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Dear Tania.
This is a fact, that they laced very tight these days, but you must consider
that they were smaller than we are today, and also their waists.
I would say, that you should make your corset 20 inches. This would leave a
gap behind about 1 - 11/2 inch.
You will find that when the corset is laced, it is not as discomfortable as
one would think. And when you have worn your corset for a while, your body
will ajust to it.
And i am sure there are others on this list who will say that it is two
much, i.e two tight. But i think that one must suffer a little, to get the
look, it pays...........
Do you have Norah Waughs book about corsets and crinolines? This is all
costumers bible................
It is available as a paper back.

Bjarne


Leif og Bjarne Drews
www.my-drewscostumes.dk

http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tania Gruning" <tania_gr17@yahoo.com>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Friday, April 25, 2003 12:08 AM
Subject: [h-cost] Victorian Corsets


>
> I have been doing some reseach about corsets, as I intend to make some. I
did come across sources that indicates waist in the size of 15-16 inchs. Are
these sources true or is it exaggeration and wishfull thinking? What would
be a reasonable compression? I have a 26 inch waist and I can almost close
the 22 inch of the rack corset I bought last year without discomfort.
>
> Tania
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
> The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo.
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
>


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From: Robin Netherton <robin@shell.nightowl.net>
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On Thu, 24 Apr 2003 IceGirlNIN@aol.com wrote:

> Robin, I don't suppose you'd be willing to e-mail me some of your
> surcoat notes?  I missed it because of tech on Saturday (my tech
> scheduled for: 12:30.  When tech rehearsal actually began: 1:30.  My
> historic pre-judge sheduled for: 2.  Actual time: 2:40 or so.  Actual
> tech for SF&F: 3:20 or so).  I'm dying to make a historically accurate
> kirtle and sideless surcoat, and my research thus far has yielded very
> little.

The kirtle is the easy part -- it's the basic Gothic fitted dress, at
least for the time span in which the sideless surcote developed and was
most likely worn. Pick your favorite theory on construction, as long as it
raises your bust, curves your spine, and lets your belly push out. For my
preferred approach, see my posts and handout at
<http://www.netherton.net/robin>.

The surcote is another matter, though. Sorry I don't have any notes in an
acceptable format to email; my lecture is heavily slide-dependent. The
gist of it is, though, that a large proportion of the medieval images of
the sideless surcote are almost certainly symbolic, not realistic images
of how real women dressed, and the later you go, the less likely the
artist was to have ever even seen an actual sideless surcote. The earliest
versions (mid-1300s, when the sides first start being cut in a scoop) do
seem likely to have been worn by noblewomen, though once you start seeing
the fur additions you're probably dealing with a garment of royalty and
possibly *very* high nobility (e.g. duchesses). After 1400 or so, the
garment seems to move into ceremonial use only, even for queens, and by
the last half of the 15th century the visual images are almost all in very
specific iconographical contexts that have little to do with reality. You
get some truly bizarre renditions by then -- I have some fun slides on
this. This all makes much more sense when I can show pictures! The
entire discussion involves a lot of examples and art historical
explanation.

(BTW, none of this applies to Spain or Italy.)

Anyway, if you want a realistic surcote, focus on images from the 1300s.
Later ones are more likely to be royal.  Avoid brasses and funerary
sculpture as a source on wearers and class level (heavy-duty symbolism
involved in this usage), though they're probably OK as a visual source of
royal ceremonial surcotes through the early 1400s.

I've had the most success in cutting the surcote by goring to the desired
width (the later, the wider) with the flare coming from waist level, and
making an extremely tight U-turn off the bodice-area panels right at the
sides of the waist (forming cut-out circles just 3-4 inches in diameter).
This curve is pulled open into the characteristic "U" by the weight of the
skirts. If you try to cut the skirts in the desired shape you will get all
sorts of awful distortion, with the folding concentrated at the bottom of
the opening rather than distributed evenly around. Remember that the
bodice is cut in one with the skirt; the fur part, when you have it, is
decoration.  And don't even think of trying to pleat or gather the sides
in, unless you're doing Victorian fancy dress!

--Robin


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Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 15:34:02 -0700
From: Kimiko Small <kimiko@kimiko1.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Victorian Corsets
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Hi Tania,

I have seen old Victorian photos of women who have the "wasp waist" look, 
and have read accounts of how they removed ribs to achieve this.

Doing a brief google search... Here is a site for someone who is actually 
14.5 inches in waist.
http://www.staylace.com/pinups/spook/

I have seen other pics in the past on the Internet of a modern woman who is 
smaller, I think 13 or so. She was dressed in Victorian garb, but the small 
size was just ... unnerving to look at to my modern eyes. It might be 
different for others, especially those who wear corsets for fetish reasons.

I personally do NOT advocate such small sizes in corsetry, and this site 
explains the many health reasons why not: (warning lots of spam popups)
http://www.angelfire.com/biz/halycon/wspwst.html

The usual corset sizes I have seen is 2-4 inches smaller than your natural 
waistline. Even on larger women that is usually enough to provide the look 
without too much discomfort or damage.

Unfortunately, many of the women I have helped into corsets over the years 
go for much smaller than that. I have tried it a couple of times, but find 
the lack of breath and inability to eat and other problems not worth the 
smaller size.

hth answers your question.

Kimiko



At 03:08 PM 4/24/2003 -0700, you wrote:
>I have been doing some reseach about corsets, as I intend to make some. I 
>did come across sources that indicates waist in the size of 15-16 inchs. 
>Are these sources true or is it exaggeration and wishfull thinking? What 
>would be a reasonable compression? I have a 26 inch waist and I can almost 
>close the 22 inch of the rack corset I bought last year without discomfort.
>
>Tania



Kimiko Small
Costumer, Fiber Artist, Web Designer, Wife and Mother
kimiko@kimiko1.com; http://www.kimiko1.com

Graphic Intern at Costume Gallery
http://www.costumegallery.com

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Just to let you know, I've got my comp in the shop, so I've had to go no mail until I get it back.  I took it in Tuesday, and the tech just looked at it this morning, only cursory.  So, I don't know how long it will be.  I'll try to catch up when I get back.

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Subject: [h-cost] Victorian Corsets
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There is a webpage called tightlacers.com that is very informative about 
this subject.  I spent some time looking through the pages a while back and 
was strangely fascinated by this.  Be fore warned...  There may be some 
disturbing images that you really don't want to view.

Also, do you remember from Little House on the Prairie that Pa could put 
both hands around Ma's waist?  I was always told that this was a desirable 
quality in women of that time.

If you start wearing corsets in your early teen years, while your body is 
still growing and your bones are more flexible you could make your waist 
unnaturally small a lot easier then if you or I tried to cinch a corset as 
small as it will go.

:) jessica


>Message: 9
>Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 15:08:43 -0700 (PDT)
>From: Tania Gruning <tania_gr17@yahoo.com>
>Subject: [h-cost] Victorian Corsets
>To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
>Message-ID: <20030424220843.51645.qmail@web41012.mail.yahoo.com>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
>
>I have been doing some reseach about corsets, as I intend to make some. I 
>did come across sources that indicates waist in the size of 15-16 inchs. 
>Are these sources true or is it exaggeration and wishfull thinking? What 
>would be a reasonable compression? I have a 26 inch waist and I can almost 
>close the 22 inch of the rack corset I bought last year without discomfort.
>
>Tania
>
>
>

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From: Lil Sorepaws <sorepaws@yahoo.com>
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Subject: [h-cost] Corsets & fashion Vs common sense
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Hi Folks, after following the link below:

http://www.staylace.com/pinups/spook/spook11.jpg  

I just about lost my dinner.  No offense to anyone who likes the wasp
waist look (hey, I have a couple of corsets myself tho its near impossible
to self lace ;) but this girl's waist is the size of my BICEP!!!!!!!! My
CALVES are bigger than her waist, and while I am no skinny mini, I am
pretty average for an american female 38-30-39 on a good day without
corset ;) and few would look at me and go "she looks like she weighs 165
if she weighs an ounce, da cow" (most guess me at 140-145 yay!) .. but no
offense intended to anyone who is exceptionally slim (wish my metabolism
ran that fast!!!) but there is such a thing as looking unnatural and
unhealthy.  A corset should cinch your waist no more that 3-4 inches
without a long time in training, especially if you plan to wear it for
longer than a photo shoot.  If I can get my waist down to a 28 I consider
it a miracle if I don't pass out .. so yeah, wimp here .. and I will never
be below the mid-20's even if I sew my mouth shut (body is just not built
like that here! ;) ...but remember .. comfort is key .. look is cool but
if you turn purple or crack a rib while lacing, what's the fun of that? 
Unless you're also into some extreme fetishism (to each their own ;) I
don't think the average person, costumer or not, is willing to go into
THOSE kind of extremes even for the sake of that "wow" factor ;)  Maybe I
am wrong but hey .. you're the one who has to try breathing in it and
moving in it ...

- Lil (waspish but not wasp waisted ;)

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Greetings All!

I have already gotten some good advice, and a lot of my friends have jumped 
in to help.  Which has been really great, since I really have been feeling 
like I am out of depth on this one.  (I am sure I have already said that.)

Here is some added information...

A friend of mine has a copy of the Costume Connections pattern to loan me.

http://www.5rivers.org/en-gb/dept_8.html

I realize this is not the most authentic pattern, but it gives me a better 
starting place than I had before.  And, I don't have draft my own pattern.  I 
have read the GBACG Review of the pattern and taken into account what they 
had to say.  (http://www.gbacg.org/Patterns/costumeconnection.htm)  If anyone 
else has used this pattern and has some tips, I would greatly appreciate it!

Nicole, you asked me what decades I was looking at, and at the time I didn't 
have a clue.  In fact, I feel I don't have a much better one now, but to 
answer your question, it looks like roughly the 1630s.  The following URL's 
are paintings, I have been looking at, and getting ideas from.  Since I can 
almost never use a pattern just the way it is, I am already making some 
changes to the pattern in my mind.

1629
http://www.marquise.de/en/1600/pics/1629_2.shtml

Mostly, I love the sleeves on this dress.  But I think the rest of the dress 
looks a little too late for them.

1632
http://www.marquise.de/en/1600/pics/1632_4.shtml

1636
http://www.marquise.de/en/1600/pics/1636_2.shtml

1633
http://www.nga.gov/cgi-bin/pimage?41378+0+0+gg4243

As far as I am concerned, if I had the time, there would be no i
nterpretations.  There would be no predrafted pattern.  Because this would be 
the dress I would make.  However, time is not infinate in this case.  :(

Thank you for the help already offered and in advance for any more that is 
sent my way.

Sincerely,
Kit

If you walk a mile in someone else's shoes, do you get to keep them? - 
Kenneth Cole
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Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 18:18:10 -0600
From: Elizabeth Lear <eliz@indra.com>
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Corsets & fashion Vs common sense
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We've had discussions about tight lacing and staylace in particular,
and they became quite heated.  Please - let's not go through that
again.

Thanks,
				...eliz, list admin

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Subject: [h-cost] Back from Costume Con to deal with my crashed computer...
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Hello, all.  I had a wonderful time at Costume Con!  And before I go any
further, Robin, that was me in the MODieval Burgundian. I wish we had a
photo together. 

As a lurker who has been to only one and 1/2 RenFaires, I had no knowledge
of just what this Costume Con thing was.  My purpose in attending was in
hopes of meeting some folks to play with, and who would understand this
obsession I have developed with costuming.  Well, folks, I am here to say
Costume Con exceeded my expectations, and that I am delighted to have met
all of you. :-)))

(BTW, for those who have - like me - been intimidated by Margo's serious
photo on her web site, not only is she a costume goddess, she is one really
groovy chick!)

Today I picked up my sewing machine from its maintenance trip - handily
taken care of while I was gone - AND I was able to get my computer fixed (I
was more upset about the possibility of losing my hundreds of costuming
bookmarks than anything else!) and have spent the past couple of hours
catching up on email.

I took lots of pictures, but it will be a while before I post them as I
don't really know how to do it yet...but Wayne ("Mister Margo") has lots of
them as well, and I KNOW he is computer savvy!

One thing in particular I learned, that I was unsure of before the trip, was
TAKE COSTUMES!  Since I only took one costume (for the Friday Social) I felt
rather underdressed most of the time, and seeing all the different types of
costumes, of all levels of skill, I really wanted to come home and start
sewing right away!  And, dagnabbit, I have now developed an interest in
costumes from other periods than my main focus...so that means MORE fabric.
And more research.  And more URLs to bookmark. (Gee, thanks, Robin...NOW I
have to have a BFD...erm...GFD!)

All you Margo's and h-costume folks are great, and I am having severe
withdrawal!  I can't wait until Atlanta!!!  (And in the meantime, please
count me in on the midwest get-together plans for this summer...)

Okay.  Back to lurking.

Allison  (The one WITHOUT the red and black hair!)

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Jennifer Sena
Distant Designs
http://home.teleport.com/~cedric/distdesi

I wont hurt you, I just want to dress you up!!



when I
>was pregnant with my first child.  She swore that my child would be marked
>or deformed because I went to see the movie The Exorcist when I was
>pregnant.  Mom said that if I saw something scary while pregnant and 
>touched
>a place on my body, especially my stomach, my child would be marked for
>life.  LOL!!!

I lived alone when I was pregnant with my oldest daughter and loved to watch 
late night scary movies.  One night there was a marathon of the "It's 
Alive!" series.  Talk about wondering while 18 and pregnant.  Those women 
were having carnivorous monsters while I watched my belly roll around with 
her movements!!  *grin*  Of course, now Felicia and I hunt to find a scarier 
movie than the last.  ;)

Jen

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>Dear All.
>
>I was wondering if somebody on the list was desperate to get something from 
>Denmark.
>
>I would really like to get two patterns from simplicity and the nearest 
>outlet from where I am is in either London or Paris, and as a poor student 
>I cannot go there just to get a pattern .
>
>It is the simplicity Design:
>
>9769    Sizes:   6 to 20 Misses' Authentic Civil War Undergarments
>
>And
>Design:   7215    Sizes:   6 to 20 Misses Chemise and Corset
>
>The one for my first victorian corset and the other for when I need a 
>challenge.
>
>Yours Sincerely
>
>Tania
>
I just cut out the corset from this pattern for a first try.  I will have to 
tinker a bit as I'm two sizes bigger below the waist than above.  I'll let 
you know how it goes.  They didn't mark the pieces of the pattern for top 
and bottom, so I hope I extended the right sections to make mine a little 
longer.  ;}  Oh well, it wont be the first rediculous goof I've made 
venturing into a new realm of sewing/costuming.

Jennifer Sena
Distant Designs
http://home.teleport.com/~cedric/distdesi

I wont hurt you, I just want to dress you up!!






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From: prairielark <prairielark@herspace.com>
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Serpent's Kiss - 17th c. shirt ?
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The year is in the late 1690s; it is implied by the characters references to the new year/new century (as in, will the garden at the center of the movie's plot be completed in time).  "Runnel" is a channel, yes.  Sorry the word doesn't translate well across the pond.  My grandmother in rural Tennessee  always called them "runnels," anything you put a drawstring or elastic thru.  I guess I picked up her word without realizing it would be strange to anyone outside our region.  And yes, it is stitched to only part of the gathered neck edge.  The front part hangs free and there seems to be a drawstring in it.  I will try to draw it and put it up on the web somewhere (geocities maybe) so you can look at it.  And, after I looked at the movie carefully again, it is only obvious on some of the men's shirts, not all of them as I first said.
Thanks for your help, P.



--- "Kate M Bunting" <K.M.Bunting@derby.ac.uk> wrote:
>I found the description confusing too. I assume the "runnel" is a channel for a drawstring, but surely 17th century shirts didn't have attached collars? Does Phoebe mean that the neckband is only stitched to part of the gathered neck edge?
>I looked at the Internet Movie Database to see if I could find any pictures, but I couldn't, and the reviewers can't seem to agree in what period the film is set. The costume designer was Consolata Boyle.
>
>
>
>Kate Bunting
>Library, University of Derby
>
>>>> nicolas_fouquet@yahoo.com 03/21/03 05:43pm >>>
>I'd love to be able to help/answer but I fear I don't understand a word of your
>description. Sorry... I just can't picture it nor actually understand some
>words, I have never come across the word 'runnelled'.
>
>Nicole
>
>> Before attaching the collar, a tiny runnel is fashioned at the topmost  edge
>> of the front of the shirt opening, and a narrow cord is inserted.  Then the
>> collar is attached in what appears to be an abutted edge seam to the top of
>> this runnel, and only about half of the runnelled edge is used, with the
>> remainder left to gather before tying.  The shirt neckline gathers up and
>> ties closed at the top neck edge instead of being fastened with a button
>> under the collar.  The corded gathers appear to be in place of what we
>> normally see as a stroke-gathered seam on 18c shirts where the collar is
>> joined.  I hope this is not too confusing.  Please let me know what you folks
>> think, esp. those of you who have worked on period films.  I would really
>> like to try this technique because it looked very beautiful.
>> 
>> Phoebe
>> 
>> _____________________________________________________________
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>
>=====
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>
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>URL: http://www.kipar.org/ 
>Email: nicole@kipar.org 
>
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Robin Netherton wrote:

>
>In the first full row labeled "Future Fashion Folio,"  the third photo is
>the "Death's Bride" gown with skeleton motifs that Karen Heim designed. In
>the next row, the first photo is Pierre Pettinger in Ann's design of the
>fractal robe.
>
Sure is, and the next photo is me!

Karen

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Subject: Re: [h-cost] RE: Peter Pan Collars
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 12:42:26 +1000
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My book on pattern drafting from the 1940s has a section on collars. On Flat
Collars it states that "collars of this type are the Peter Pan and the
Sailor Collar, and variations of these". Variations of these include a
fluted edge peter pan collar.

Sharon Nevin

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Subject: [h-cost] Costume Con!
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There is so much to say - the weekend was fabulous but overwhelming!! To sum
up in an inadequate fashion:

Hung out with: Margo & spouse, the other Allison, Danielle, Anna, Kate,
Drea, Teddy and so many more! The talent was awesome and the enthusiasm
infectious - look for several hot pink sparkly things next year!

Saw: Sue and the man eating lions at the Field Museum, fantastic hall
costumes, unbelievably good competitive costumes (Judy, I was stunned to
learn that your entry was entirely hand-stitched!), beautifully crafted
dolls, many beautiful things....

Learned: how to scale up from 2d to 3d, the history of costuming at cons
(this was my first Costume Con), the hash that the Victorians made of
medieval costume history, how to embellish cabochon stones, the concept of
chaos costuming, pitfalls of costume research and historical re-enacting,
and.. again, too much more to mention!

Witnessed - fantastic masquerades and fun Friday night social!

I am still somewhat exhausted from the weekend and not typing clearly, but
suffice it to say I had a great time and plan to be in Atlanta next year. If
I forgot someone/something/a class/etc. I do apologize; I didn't mean to but
there was just SO MUCH!

Allison (T.)

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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Sheryl Nance-Durst <sherylnd@kc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Back from Costume Con
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There's a couple of me in this set.
7th row is me in my fairy costume.
4th row from the bottom is a good one of my black and white
masquerade dress.

Thanks for posting these links, Robin!

Sheryl Nance-Durst

At 10:05 AM 4/24/03 -0500, you wrote:

>On this page, first row, third photo:
>   http://www.snapfish.com/thumbnailshare/AlbumID=6781787/t_=3381905
>...you'll find Danielle (in the black) with another 20's person (in blue).
>Danielle's dress belonged to Tom's ?great-aunt? grandmother? -- he brought
>this and another over from England for her to wear. It was fun watching
>Teddy and Tom dress Danielle up with the various accessories they'd just
>happened to bring along. The fourth picture has a better view of Danielle
>and a lousy one of me.
>
>On that same page, in the seventh row, you'll see Danielle again, in red.
>
>Even further down: The 2nd through 8th of the photos labeled F&SF
>Masquerade are from the "Court of the Crimson King" presentation; the
>woman in the yellow is the Fire Witch. The moth scenario just after that
>was a stunner too.
>
>A couple of rows down is Dr. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band. The twist
>here is that when they turn around, you see logos on their backs: the
>green is 7-Up, the purple is Grape Nehi, the orange is Orange Crush, and
>the red is Dr. Pepper. The costumes had some wonderful detail, including
>vintage bottlecaps for the buttons; the epaulets are huge pull-tabs.
>
>At the end of the same row is one of my favorites: The Digital Revolution.
>Full French Revolution costume with copious use of CDs, glowing circuitry,
>etc. The curly wig is made of videotape.
>
>Next row, third photo, is (I think) Tom, in b/w Italian Ren.
>
>In the first full row labeled "Future Fashion Folio,"  the third photo is
>the "Death's Bride" gown with skeleton motifs that Karen Heim designed. In
>the next row, the first photo is Pierre Pettinger in Ann's design of the
>fractal robe.
>
>I'm sure there are other h-cost-linked people in this set, particularly
>the various Elizabethan hall costumes and the historical masquerade
>entries, but you'll have to identify yourselves! I'm running out of names,
>and my computer loads much too slowly.
>
>--Robin
>
>
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>
>Allison  (The one WITHOUT the red and black hair!)

Aha! Then you must be the one that I met!

Sheryl Nance-Durst

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Subject: [h-cost] Re: Teddy
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Ok... feeling *really* dumb now... For some reason I kept thinking that 
Teddy looked familiar but I couldn't figure out why, other than maybe a 
picture here or there.  Somehow I missed the fact that he'd been to 
CC15, which would explain it (there are actually a fair number of people 
I met in Seattle and/or Baltimore who I *knew* I had met, some I could 
even place names to).

(Seriously trying to work out Atlanta for next year... )

-Elisabeth

>From: Robin Netherton <robin@shell.nightowl.net>
>
>On Thu, 24 Apr 2003, Angharad ver' Reynulf wrote:
>
>>Mr. Betsy is in a series by Julian May about Pliocene Exiles:  The
>>Many Colored Land, The Golden Torc, The Non-Born King and The
>>Adversary.  (All published between 1981-1984).  Very spiff costume
>>concept and I definitely wanna see pics when Teddy's done!
>>
>>(I never wanted to do that one, I wanted to do one of Tanu)
>>    
>>
>
>Like this?
>
>http://www.ireadh.demon.co.uk/cguk/ccxvdisp/page5.html
>
>And yes, that's Teddy :-)
>  
>



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Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 22:39:06 -0500
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: Teddy
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That picture was taken at a WorldCon 95 in Britain, not at a CostumeCon.
Teddy has only ever been to Boston for general visits, he's never been to
a CostuemCon before, this is his first time in the Heartland. 

I am speaking for him because he's not on h-cost at this time, but he IS
living in my sewing room so I have it on good authority!

By the way, he's really enjoying all the comments about him and the
pictures of his stint as an Iron Costumer judge. Tom is also enjoying the
comments about him and was happy to have been entertaining as un-official
commentator. 


Karen



On Thu, 24 Apr 2003 23:32:41 -0400 Cozit / Liz <cozit@comcast.net>
writes:
> Ok... feeling *really* dumb now... For some reason I kept thinking 
> that Teddy looked familiar but I couldn't figure out why, other than 
> maybe a picture here or there.  Somehow I missed the fact that he'd
been to 
> 
> CC15, which would explain it (there are actually a fair number of 
> people I met in Seattle and/or Baltimore who I *knew* I had met, some I

> could even place names to).
> 
> (Seriously trying to work out Atlanta for next year... )
> 
> -Elisabeth

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Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 21:12:11 -0700 (PDT)
From: Lil Sorepaws <sorepaws@yahoo.com>
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Subject: [h-cost] 
	Corset Patterns /Underthings for Tania (ALso a Question on Buttons
	& Jewelry)
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Tania, couln't find your email so I am replying enmasse .. I have the two
patterns in question (uncut/unopened) and also have way too much boning on
hand (of the shorter variety spring steel) .. If you're interested let me
know ;)

Ok, question to put out to y'all .. over the last few years I've become a
bit of a magpie, collecting bright shiny pretties into a hoarde .. the
thing is .. I don't wear them, don't really do much with 99% of them, and
am finding myself tripping over them more than anything else.  I;ve
considered listing them in lots on ebay but its hard to photograph small
pretty sparklies (anything from rhinestone buttons and sew on decorations
to actual costume jewelry in both gold and silvertones)without specialized
equipment and my camera just makes it all a pretty mess ...

Would an SCA (probably not for the rhinestoney things ;) event or a con be
a good place to get a table and sell them off?  I have never been a
merchant (and hate the whole haggle/bargain thing) and don't know if its
worth the time and effort.  I've had some REALLY bad experiences with
consignments to a "store" so I'd rather not go that route ... Any
suggestions?  I have *some* photos but they are pretty much blurry ...

http://www.dark-goddess.com/ebabe/hoard/

http://www.dark-goddess.com/ebabe/hoard/cloak11.jpg is one example of an
enameled cloak brooch and I have matching earrings (please ignore the ones
labeled box and china - they are not jewelry just a dress and some photos
for insurance that a damaged box arrived ;) ... Anyways, pardon the babble
.. just getting frustrated with ebay right now ... *sigh* and pouting over
missing costume con = (  There's always NEXT YEAR IN ATLANTA!!!  YAY@!

- Lil (magpie wanna-be)

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Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 23:28:31 -0500
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Danielle Nunn-Weinberg <dannw@mn.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Victorian Corsets
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At 03:08 PM 4/24/2003 -0700, you wrote:

>I have been doing some reseach about corsets, as I intend to make some. I 
>did come across sources that indicates waist in the size of 15-16 inchs. 
>Are these sources true or is it exaggeration and wishfull thinking? What 
>would be a reasonable compression? I have a 26 inch waist and I can almost 
>close the 22 inch of the rack corset I bought last year without discomfort.
>
>Tania

Well, I did a paper on 1890s corsetry and clothing for school last year and 
I found that the 15-16 inch waist seems to be more myth than fact - I'm 
sure there were a few "professional beauties" who might have achieved that 
but, certainly not the average woman.  Look at the mail-order catalogues 
for the time (i.e. Sears Roebuck and Bloomingdales) the corset pages 
clearly state, order a corset size two inches smaller than your uncorseted 
waist measurement.  The smallest sizes available were 18 and 20 (varied 
between corset styles) while they went up to 30+ inches.  This would 
suggest to me that they weren't after or achieving the fabled 15 
inches.  Also, a study was done of the clothing in the Florida University 
collection and the average waist size for the 1890s day dresses was around 
28 inches while the evening gowns from the same period got down to 24 
inches.  You are well within the normal range for the end of the 19th 
century without injuring yourself.

Cheers,
Danielle

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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Corset Patterns /Underthings for Tania (ALso a Question
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        I just skipped through and looked at half a dozen pieces (I would
love to have the ones listed as ear 15 01 - let me know if they go up on
eBay) and think the photography is about as good as any I have seen on
eBay.  My suggestion would be to put a piece of tissue over your flash
when taking close up shots of shiny stuff and you won't get the bounce
back that makes the piece look blurry.  And instead of using a finger, a
small ruler might work for sizing, but you can also just give the size in
the description.  

        I have been merchanting in SCA for about a year and have found it
rather fun.  Most people don't make an issue of haggling and if you say
the price is firm they either take it or leave it.  So give it a try and
see how it goes.  It doesn't cost anything to try and you might find it
fun.

Lalah
Never give up, Never surrender
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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Sideless surcotes, was Costume Con Notes, Photos, etc
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Shades of ghosts from a distant past....<evil grin>....I have copies of
a certain "Mistress Lyra's Sideless Surcoat" handout.....
I *am* bribable ;-D
--sue

Robin Netherton wrote:
> 
> On Thu, 24 Apr 2003 IceGirlNIN@aol.com wrote:
> 
> > Robin, I don't suppose you'd be willing to e-mail me some of your
> > surcoat notes?  I missed it because of tech on Saturday (my tech
> > scheduled for: 12:30.  When tech rehearsal actually began: 1:30.  My
> > historic pre-judge sheduled for: 2.  Actual time: 2:40 or so.  Actual
> > tech for SF&F: 3:20 or so).  I'm dying to make a historically accurate
> > kirtle and sideless surcoat, and my research thus far has yielded very
> > little.
> 
> The kirtle is the easy part -- it's the basic Gothic fitted dress, at
> least for the time span in which the sideless surcote developed and was
> most likely worn. Pick your favorite theory on construction, as long as it
> raises your bust, curves your spine, and lets your belly push out. For my
> preferred approach, see my posts and handout at
> <http://www.netherton.net/robin>.
> 
> The surcote is another matter, though. Sorry I don't have any notes in an
> acceptable format to email; my lecture is heavily slide-dependent. The
> gist of it is, though, that a large proportion of the medieval images of
> the sideless surcote are almost certainly symbolic, not realistic images
> of how real women dressed, and the later you go, the less likely the
> artist was to have ever even seen an actual sideless surcote. The earliest
> versions (mid-1300s, when the sides first start being cut in a scoop) do
> seem likely to have been worn by noblewomen, though once you start seeing
> the fur additions you're probably dealing with a garment of royalty and
> possibly *very* high nobility (e.g. duchesses). After 1400 or so, the
> garment seems to move into ceremonial use only, even for queens, and by
> the last half of the 15th century the visual images are almost all in very
> specific iconographical contexts that have little to do with reality. You
> get some truly bizarre renditions by then -- I have some fun slides on
> this. This all makes much more sense when I can show pictures! The
> entire discussion involves a lot of examples and art historical
> explanation.
> 
> (BTW, none of this applies to Spain or Italy.)
> 
> Anyway, if you want a realistic surcote, focus on images from the 1300s.
> Later ones are more likely to be royal.  Avoid brasses and funerary
> sculpture as a source on wearers and class level (heavy-duty symbolism
> involved in this usage), though they're probably OK as a visual source of
> royal ceremonial surcotes through the early 1400s.
> 
> I've had the most success in cutting the surcote by goring to the desired
> width (the later, the wider) with the flare coming from waist level, and
> making an extremely tight U-turn off the bodice-area panels right at the
> sides of the waist (forming cut-out circles just 3-4 inches in diameter).
> This curve is pulled open into the characteristic "U" by the weight of the
> skirts. If you try to cut the skirts in the desired shape you will get all
> sorts of awful distortion, with the folding concentrated at the bottom of
> the opening rather than distributed evenly around. Remember that the
> bodice is cut in one with the skirt; the fur part, when you have it, is
> decoration.  And don't even think of trying to pleat or gather the sides
> in, unless you're doing Victorian fancy dress!
> 
> --Robin
> 
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From: =?iso-8859-1?q?N=20Kipar?= <nicolas_fouquet@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Serpent's Kiss - 17th c. shirt ?
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 --- prairielark <prairielark@herspace.com> wrote: > The year is in the late
1690s; it is implied by the characters references to
> the new year/new century (as in, will the garden at the center of the movie's
> plot be completed in time).  "Runnel" is a channel, yes.  Sorry the word
> doesn't translate well across the pond.  My grandmother in rural Tennessee 
> always called them "runnels," anything you put a drawstring or elastic thru. 
> I guess I picked up her word without realizing it would be strange to anyone
> outside our region.  And yes, it is stitched to only part of the gathered
> neck edge.  The front part hangs free and there seems to be a drawstring in
> it.  I will try to draw it and put it up on the web somewhere (geocities
> maybe) so you can look at it.  And, after I looked at the movie carefully
> again, it is only obvious on some of the men's shirts, not all of them as I
> first said.
> Thanks for your help, P.

I had researched the neck finishing of shirts in the 1690s/1700 and went
through all the extant ones I could find (mostly earlier except that of the
Lord Clapham doll) and all the paintings that showed necks. There are quite a
few that show the shirt open and the ribbon hanging loose with two buttonholes
one on each side and a ribbon threaded through those to close the neck. Pretty
much just like a chemise, the difference being the cut and stand-up collar of
course.
I have not come across a single reference for or evidence of any kind of
drawstring in necks of shirts I'm afraid.
There are even some shirts with small white thread covered buttons that close
the collar.

Nicole

=====
"Brains, not Bombs"
http://www.stopthewar.org.uk/

Nicole Kipar M.A.
URL: http://www.kipar.org/
Email: nicole@kipar.org

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Subject: [h-cost] RE: Peter Pan Collars
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It's worth pointing out that the 17th century falling bands had numerous darts at the back to shape them to the shoulders. I didn't realise this when I first started, and designed my first one as a flat shape, presumably like the cut of a Peter Pan collar.

Kate Bunting
Library, University of Derby

>>> jessicastier@hotmail.com 04/24/03 04:46pm >>>
Thanks for the thoughts on the Peter Pan Collar origins.  I have a couple of 
ideas to look into...  The idea that it is similar to the cavalier style 
collars in very interesting.  I am going to look into that more.  I also 
will work backwards from the production of Peter Pan in the 1950's.

This couldn't be the first time, in history, that this collar surfaced, 
could it?

Just a little tangent brought on by the creative juices of draping.
Thanks!
:) jessica


>From Kathleen:
>Jessica, This is not evidence but a theory. This style collar was popular 
>in
>the 1950's when the original musical production of Peter Pan became a huge
>hit. Mary Martin's costume featured a cute collar that was widely repeated
>in fashions for young misses. The collars were used on blouses as well a
>separate bands to be worn with sweaters.
>So that is my 'take' on the origin."

From: Heather Meadows:
"Well a Peter Pan collar is pretty much the same thing as a cavalier
style large 'falling'
collar, at least draping/drafting wise..."


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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Victorian Corsets
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>I have been doing some reseach about corsets, as I intend to make some. I
did come across sources that indicates waist in the size of 15-16 inchs. Are
these sources true or is it exaggeration and wishfull thinking? What would
be a reasonable compression?

Remember due to nutrition most Victorian people were smaller than us to
start with. Having said that I've see adds for corsets with these very small
sizes but also up to much bigger waists over 36 inches (described as stout
:))

Extreme corseting was then & now not recommended. It damages your internal
organs and can lead to failure of such vital parts, as well as effecting you
fertility and safety in pregnancy. Doctors of the time warned against it and
I would echo their worried now !

Then as now there were people who still damaged themselves to supposedly
look good. Think of extreme corsetry as extreme diets, the psycology behind
it is similar.

But for occasional corsetry which I think is what you are after, 4 inches
seems average without pain in most people. I disagree totally with  "But i
think that one must suffer a little, to get the
look, it pays........."  some of the pay back might be health wise. It is
true your body will adapt and a reasonably laced corset will be fairly
comfortable. I wear mine for a week at a time without too much of a worry
and I've done long gorge walks and other activities in it. I would never
wear a corset when pregnant or if contemplating pregnancy by the way .

Finally go for flexibility in spiral boning rather than stiff boning.

Mel

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> Also, do you remember from Little House on the Prairie that Pa could put
> both hands around Ma's waist?  I was always told that this was a desirable
> quality in women of that time.

And how would that work for a working woman? Seriously it's a myth that this
was a desired thing.. by fetishists yes... there was as much written against
tightlacing as there was for.. and neither of them really represent the
norm.

Read the books by Valerie Steele. She soon dispells any 'romantic' notions
of the idiocity of our ancestors. She even found that elusisve evidence that
metal corsets were prescribed by at least one physician in the 16th C. Not
to say that all the corsets in collections are for this purpose.. or that it
was common practice.

> I have seen old Victorian photos of women who have the "wasp waist" look,
> and have read accounts of how they removed ribs to achieve this.

Those accounts are myths yet again. No one can say who and where and when
this woman occured. We have had several discussions on this in the recent
past. Heck it's even been aimed at Cher!

The closest things I can find are some accounts of actresses having facial
surgery (which I haven't seen in any other resource) and of course Sarah
Bernhardt having her leg amputated at a late stage in life.

> I have seen other pics in the past on the Internet of a modern woman who
is
> smaller, I think 13 or so. She was dressed in Victorian garb, but the
small
> size was just ... unnerving to look at to my modern eyes. It might be
> different for others, especially those who wear corsets for fetish
reasons.

Not normal (as in average.. I'm putting no moral values on this at all.. too
inflamtory), then or now. Again, read Valerie Steele she has put a huge
amount of time and effort into untangling the myths.

Oh and I found that book she quotes with the diagram of a 15" waist. Yes, it
really is about the size of a saucer. Fantastic book, all these movies stars
from the 50s (or 40s was it?) in extant garments. Sigh... to think that to
them it was like dresses from the 1900s to the 1950s really....

> Unfortunately, many of the women I have helped into corsets over the years
> go for much smaller than that. I have tried it a couple of times, but find
> the lack of breath and inability to eat and other problems not worth the
> smaller size.

I'm going to discuss the biggest problem I had and it involved the digestive
tract so turn away now if you do not wish to read...
*
*
*
*
I had a corset that only took me in a little, but my body shape and such
made me just feel constipated and bloated and very uncomfortable and gassy.
Breathing was no problem.. everything is normally very roomy through the
bust as I am so small... but I can't stand anything around my diaphragm.


Other than that I was fine. It didn't help that we were on set and well ...
restrooms were thin on the ground and not very appealling....

michaela
http://glittersweet.com



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From: =?iso-8859-1?q?N=20Kipar?= <nicolas_fouquet@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] More Cavalier Information...
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
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 Hiya,

> A friend of mine has a copy of the Costume Connections pattern to loan me.
> 
> http://www.5rivers.org/en-gb/dept_8.html
> 
> I realize this is not the most authentic pattern, but it gives me a better 
> starting place than I had before.  And, I don't have draft my own pattern.  I

If it doesn't have to be authentic, then this should be fine, and why not, as
long as you just want a costume.

> have read the GBACG Review of the pattern and taken into account what they 
> had to say.  (http://www.gbacg.org/Patterns/costumeconnection.htm)  If anyone

Bust darts??? Urgh... that is perhaps a little terrible, can you somehow get
rid of them? I assume the pattern uses thse because they don't assume proper
undergarments or indeed a well boned bodice. 

> Nicole, you asked me what decades I was looking at, and at the time I didn't 
> have a clue.  In fact, I feel I don't have a much better one now, but to 
> answer your question, it looks like roughly the 1630s.

That's what I wondered because it is more or less (the late 1630s) what is
popularly seen as the most typical Cavalier fashion.

> 1629
> http://www.marquise.de/en/1600/pics/1629_2.shtml
> 
> Mostly, I love the sleeves on this dress.  But I think the rest of the dress 
> looks a little too late for them.

I'd be careful, the painting is from 1629, I'd rather go with the later
sleeves.

> 1633
> http://www.nga.gov/cgi-bin/pimage?41378+0+0+gg4243
> 
> As far as I am concerned, if I had the time, there would be no i
> nterpretations.  There would be no predrafted pattern.  Because this would be
> the dress I would make.  However, time is not infinate in this case.  :(

You could use those sleeves perhaps?

If you have some metallic lace then that would be good for decoration of the
seams of the bodice as seen in the paintings. I'd go for colours that are not
pastel, but blues or greens or golden yellows. If you don't have those in your
stash, let me know what you have and what would be the most likely one.
Definitely wear either the bodice boned (make sure the stomacher is quite
stiff) or wear stays underneath, which are high waisted too, I wonder if you
could use earlier ones for that.
Otherwise I can't think of anything else right now. I guess you just have to
start on it. :-)

Nicole

=====
Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgment.   ~ J.R.R. Tolkien

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From: Gail & Scott Finke <gailscott@eos.net>
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Subject: [h-cost] Re: missing ribs
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For information about Victorians removing ribs to get small waists, please
see the archives. 

For new folks to the list, here's a summary: Put the idea in the same
category as the $250 cookie recipe and the Deposed African Dictator money
laundering scheme.

Gail Finke


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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: h-costume Digest, Vol 2, Issue 169
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I know that someone has already suggested Dhama as a resource;even though
the fiber is not all silk, it has a nice hand and dyes super well.  At
about $7 per, not a bad deal..and you'd be able to wear your gown while you
beat the bushes.  One piece I got from them even had a pattern in it.

         ----- Original Message -----
From: <IceGirlNIN@aol.com>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2003 1:20 PM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: h-costume Digest, Vol 2, Issue 169


> It would be nice indeed to have custom-woven fabric...but at $107 per
SAMPLE, I'm afraid it's not for me.  What I really want is 2 yards of
custom-woven cotton or silk brocade <g> I can't find anything I like that's
"period" and matches (i.e. isn't green or red) the rest of my gown for an
Elizabethan forepart!
>
> Christine
>
> In a message dated 4/24/2003 9:42:59 AM Eastern Standard Time,
gailscott@eos.net writes:
>
> > WOW!!!! The fabric is gorgeous. But am I the only one who thinks the
> > patterns shown on their site are ugly? They do weave to your design,
though!
> > Wouldn't that be wonderful, to have a custom pattern made?
> > Sigh.
> _______________________________________________
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Subject: [h-cost] Baby measurements
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Hi,
One of my friends is going to have a baby soon and we're going to make him
some SCA-wearable things. I have a pattern, but it's 2-4 years. I'm aiming
more at a 6-12 months size. Since the patterns I have are tunics, there will
be no problem in resizing them. But I don't have a baby myself, and I don't
have a close friend who has a baby this age. I need help figuring out
measurements.
So, those of you who have baby clothes around 6-12 months size, could you
give me measurements for a fairly loose-fitting tunic-like garment? I need
shoulder width from seam to seam (like a T-tunic), arm length, around the
belly width (width of the garment, not actual measurements of the baby), and
shoulder to knee length.
Also, we're going to make some bloomers to go with it, so I also need waist
measurement of a pair of bloomers and length from waist to ankle.
It would be very helpful!
Thanks!
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Victorian Corsets
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 11:45:35 -0400
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for my collection of garments between 1870-90, 22" is a norm.
Kathleen
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tania Gruning" <tania_gr17@yahoo.com>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2003 6:08 PM
Subject: [h-cost] Victorian Corsets


>
> I have been doing some reseach about corsets, as I intend to make some. I
did come across sources that indicates waist in the size of 15-16 inchs. Are
these sources true or is it exaggeration and wishfull thinking? What would
be a reasonable compression? I have a 26 inch waist and I can almost close
the 22 inch of the rack corset I bought last year without discomfort.
>
> Tania
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
> The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo.
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Corsets & fashion Vs common sense
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 11:43:25 -0400
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Well it does say that her uncorseted measurement is 20". So it's not THAT
terrible, she already has a very small waist. What I can't figure out is how
that can be her real measurements. I'm the same height and weight as her,
and I'm skinny, but my own uncorseted waist measurement is more like a 26".
(My ex could put his hands around me, I was a bit skinnier than and he had
big hands - he had to squeeze me a little, but he could touch the tips of
his fingers)

But I admit it's so tight it looks scary :-)
To each its own, I guess :-) Some people probably think it's way cool :-)

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Lil Sorepaws" <sorepaws@yahoo.com>
To: <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2003 7:43 PM
Subject: [h-cost] Corsets & fashion Vs common sense


> Hi Folks, after following the link below:
>
> http://www.staylace.com/pinups/spook/spook11.jpg
>
> I just about lost my dinner.  No offense to anyone who likes the wasp
> waist look (hey, I have a couple of corsets myself tho its near impossible
> to self lace ;) but this girl's waist is the size of my BICEP!!!!!!!! My
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Victorian Corsets
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 16:48:17 +0100
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>for my collection of garments between 1870-90, 22" is a norm.

Surviving garments may not be representative of the living population as has
been discussed before :)

Mel
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Victorian Corsets
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 12:24:24 -0400
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That is right; I did say 'of my collection'.None of these pieces has been
altered, and they came from several families, not all from this geographical
area. The styles are mixed so I can't even tag them as to the age of the
probable wearer. There is also the issue of these garments being left behind
while the  matching skirts probably were recycled for size change or style
versatility that would have been dated by the remaining bodice.
I do note a trend toward 24-27" for garments 1890-1900. Again, in the pieces
that have become my collection. Many of these have been given to me by
family members variously, as well a flea-auction finds.
Perhaps, it is possible to suggest that the earlier sizes (21-22) might
indicate an 'ideal' size that was reachable for a segment of the population
who wanted to be fashionable.
Kathleen
----- Original Message -----
From: "Melanie Wilson" <MelanieWilson@dragonflight.co.uk>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Friday, April 25, 2003 11:48 AM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Victorian Corsets


> >for my collection of garments between 1870-90, 22" is a norm.
>
> Surviving garments may not be representative of the living population as
has
> been discussed before :)
>
> Mel
> This e-mail, and any attachment, is confidential. If you have received
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> this message may contain personal views which are not the views of the
> Company, unless specifically stated.
>
>
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From: Gail & Scott Finke <gailscott@eos.net>
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Subject: [h-cost] Re: corsets
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Remember, in "Little House" Ma's waist was tiny BEFORE she got married, had
children, and went off to the prairie to work! And Pa had big hands.

I, too, would argue with Bjarne about suffering a little -- but then, we are
all different in the sort of comfort we expect. I know people who find it
very difficult to wear pantyhose and off-the-rack dresses, because they
aren't comfortable in anything but jeans and t-shirts. So if you are not
used to more fitting clothes, you may feel that you "suffer" in a corset
while other people feel quite comfortable.

I think a good starting place would be two inches smaller than normal at
your waist. Try wearing it around for a while and see if you can comfortably
corset smaller (this really depends on your body shape, IMHO). If so, try
that -- but don't go too tight or you'll be unhealthy. If not, two inches
is still accurate.

Gail Finke


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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>,
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From: Margo Anderson <margo@margospatterns.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Victorian Corsets
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At 10:21 PM 04/25/2003 +1200, michaela wrote:
>> Also, do you remember from Little House on the Prairie that Pa could put
>> both hands around Ma's waist?  I was always told that this was a desirable
>> quality in women of that time.
>
Yes, but that was when they were first married.  Unlike today, it was
considered a fine thing for a very young woman to have a slender waist, but
after she married and have children she was allowed to have a more
realistic, womanly rather than girlish, figure.

Margo

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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: corsets
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        I think Gail has made some good points.  This is out of my
period, but I have recently made a corset (Thanks, Margo) to wear with
Tudor garb.  I was warned that it would be uncomfortable, and told I
would probably pass out if I tried to wear it all day.  Hogwash!  I have
a 35 inch waist and made the corset so it could go down to 32 inches.  I
don't really pull it that tight though so probably just lose about two
inches.  I wore the garb from ten in the morning until 9 at night one day
and spent most of it walking around on cement or asphalt paving.  By the
time the day was over my legs and feet were killing me but my back (which
is weak due to past injuries) felt just fine.  I didn't have the
waistline of Mary Queen of Scots (whom I was portraying) but it did look
just fine and I found the darned corset more comfortable than a bra!  It
is just a lot more difficult to get in and out of.

        I should think that a reasonable corset for Victorian period
should not be uncomfortable.  They were not all tiny little people.  Look
at some old photos and you will find some really normal looking ladies
with great posture.  Unless you want to look like a stage star, you
should be able to come up with something that is quite appropriate to the
period without putting yourself in the hospital.

Lalah
Never give up, Never surrender
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Victorian Corsets
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>That is right; I did say 'of my collection'.None of these pieces has been
altered,

When you say altered you mean show signs of altering ?

I would expect few signs of alteration from say larger garments cut down,
where one would expect the "bad" pieces to be cut out for instance don't you
think ?

>There is also the issue of these garments being left behind

These are which garemts then sorry I might have missed it I'm tireer than I
think judging by my poor tying :) (just back to England from CosCon)

>Perhaps, it is possible to suggest that the earlier sizes (21-22) might
indicate an 'ideal' size that was reachable for a segment of the population
who wanted to be fashionable.

My personal feeling is 21-22 in clothing  indicates a minimum size after
which there is nobody small enough to cut them down to :)

What about other measurments eg bust , shoulders or hips (ie uncorseted
areas). If that was disproportionate it would indicate the waist as corseted
rather than natural  but if in line we can assume I think a generally small
person.

Mel

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>Yes, but that was when they were first married.  Unlike today, it was
considered a fine thing for a very young woman to have a slender waist, but
after she married and have children she was allowed to have a more
realistic, womanly rather than girlish, figure.

Hi Margo , hope you are home safe & sound

Sadly like most people my waist was considerably smaller B4 kids As a matter
of interest so were my hips which enlarged 4-6 uinches after the first birth
even whemn my waist went skinny again after traumatic events which got me to
my lowest ever adult weight.

Mel

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Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 10:35:46 -0700
From: Kimiko Small <kimiko@kimiko1.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Baby measurements
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At 11:29 AM 4/25/2003 -0400, you wrote:
>So, those of you who have baby clothes around 6-12 months size, could you
>give me measurements for a fairly loose-fitting tunic-like garment? I need
>shoulder width from seam to seam (like a T-tunic), arm length, around the
>belly width (width of the garment, not actual measurements of the baby), and
>shoulder to knee length.
>Also, we're going to make some bloomers to go with it, so I also need waist
>measurement of a pair of bloomers and length from waist to ankle.
>It would be very helpful!

I have a nine month old that I am currently working on a chemise and dress 
for him... even tho I will have to explain to many a person that this is a 
cute little boy, he gets to wear a dress this weekend.

Anyway... here are my measurements taken from one of his 12 month sleepers 
and 6/9 month pants (for the bloomers part). Trying to take measurements of 
a squirming little boy isn't fun.

Shoulder width: 11" shoulder tip to shoulder tip
Arm length (neck to wrist): 13"
Around the belly/chest width: 24"
Shoulder to knee length: 20.5"
waist from pants: 16" contracted by elastic, 24" stretched.
length from waist to ankle: 14.5"

One other measurement I did take from my baby
neck 12"

I would also suggest making it bigger length wise, and adding in a deep 
hem. You could also add in extra at the seams to take out as the baby grows.

I hope that helps you.

Kimiko



Kimiko Small
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Victorian Corsets
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At 10:21 PM 4/25/2003 +1200, you wrote:
>and other problems not worth the
> > smaller size.
>
>I'm going to discuss the biggest problem I had and it involved the digestive
>tract so turn away now if you do not wish to read...


That was the "other problems" I had mentioned. I didn't want to become too 
... graphic.

:-)

Kimiko

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At 09:12 PM 4/24/2003 -0700, you wrote:
>Would an SCA (probably not for the rhinestoney things ;) event or a con be
>a good place to get a table and sell them off?  I have never been a
>merchant (and hate the whole haggle/bargain thing) and don't know if its
>worth the time and effort.  I've had some REALLY bad experiences with
>consignments to a "store" so I'd rather not go that route ... Any
>suggestions?  I have *some* photos but they are pretty much blurry ...
>
>http://www.dark-goddess.com/ebabe/hoard/

I want to buy some of your hoard, if you are getting rid of them. Lots of 
pretties...

Seriously, try an event. If you are not comfortable with the actual sales, 
find a merchant at an event that is willing to do this for you for a 
commission. I have a lady friend at my local small faires that sells such 
things all the time under her business name of "The Queen's Favor", and she 
makes decent money at it.

And if you go the e-bay route, let us know so we can go into a bidding 
frenzy over them.

As for photo taking, try using the "micro" setting on the camera if it has 
one. It is the tulip flower image on many cameras, even digitals. It helps 
get clear images of small upclose shots.

Kimiko


Kimiko Small
Costumer, Fiber Artist, Web Designer, Wife and Mother
kimiko@kimiko1.com; http://www.kimiko1.com

Graphic Intern at Costume Gallery
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In a message dated 4/25/2003 9:54:26 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
nicolas_fouquet@yahoo.com writes:


> Bust darts??? 

And y'all complained about my 1660s comments!
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Very true.  Also, isn't is true that women often married earlier then is the 
norm today?  This would have a huge effect on the build of women who were 
married and having children in their mid teens.
At 16, I was a lot thinner then I am now and could certainly have fit into a 
corset considerably smaller then I can now.  I'm sure this is the case for 
most of us. I am 27 and have not had any children (yet).  I know that this 
really can change your build substantially.
You know, this really ties into the thread about research mistakes...  It's 
difficult to determine, historically, what is the norm and what is the 
exception.
Very interesting...

:) jessica

At 10:21 PM 04/25/2003 +1200, michaela wrote:
>>Also, do you remember from Little House on the Prairie that Pa could put 
>>both hands around Ma's waist?  I was always told that this was a desirable 
>>Quality in women of that time.
>
Yes, but that was when they were first married.  Unlike today, it was
considered a fine thing for a very young woman to have a slender waist, but
after she married and have children she was allowed to have a more
realistic, womanly rather than girlish, figure.

Margo


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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Victorian Corsets
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 15:03:51 -0400
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Mel, my guess that the garments have not been altered as you suggest they
might have, is based on the fact that the fabric and lining is 'new'
condition. Some of them seem to have only had one wearing. These most
probably were not 'made overs'. I have lots of other stuff that started out
'life' in some other form so that I have something to base this theory on.
The garments that I am referring to are those of the 'average 22" waists'.
The other measurements (ie. bust, hips, and so forth) are about 31-33"
/34-35"on average.  Thus my feeling that they were for genuinely small
...mostly adult...people. Adult because of the over all style of the
garment. Most are professionally finished with nice scalloped seams that are
properly bound and boned...some with baleen, as you would expect of this
period.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Melanie Wilson" <MelanieWilson@dragonflight.co.uk>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Friday, April 25, 2003 1:50 PM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Victorian Corsets


> >That is right; I did say 'of my collection'.None of these pieces has been
> altered,
>
> When you say altered you mean show signs of altering ?
>
> I would expect few signs of alteration from say larger garments cut down,
> where one would expect the "bad" pieces to be cut out for instance don't
you
> think ?
>
> >There is also the issue of these garments being left behind
>
> These are which garemts then sorry I might have missed it I'm tireer than
I
> think judging by my poor tying :) (just back to England from CosCon)
>
> >Perhaps, it is possible to suggest that the earlier sizes (21-22) might
> indicate an 'ideal' size that was reachable for a segment of the
population
> who wanted to be fashionable.
>
> My personal feeling is 21-22 in clothing  indicates a minimum size after
> which there is nobody small enough to cut them down to :)
>
> What about other measurments eg bust , shoulders or hips (ie uncorseted
> areas). If that was disproportionate it would indicate the waist as
corseted
> rather than natural  but if in line we can assume I think a generally
small
> person.
>
> Mel
>
> This e-mail, and any attachment, is confidential. If you have received
> it in error, please delete it from your system, do not use or disclose
> the information in any way, and notify me immediately. The contents of
> this message may contain personal views which are not the views of the
> Company, unless specifically stated.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Victorian Corsets
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 20:44:28 +0100
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>Mel, my guess that the garments have not been altered as you suggest they
might have, is based on the fact that the fabric and lining is 'new'
condition.

Thanks for clarifying that

>The garments that I am referring to are those of the 'average 22" waists'.
The other measurements (ie. bust, hips, and so forth) are about 31-33"
/34-35"on average.  Thus my feeling that they were for genuinely small

OK that sounds like a fairly normal waist size for that bust size in my
experiance then and does not seem to support excessive corsetry.

At a 36 inch bust it used to be common to have a 24 inch waist (not sure if
this still holds ?) so a 31-33 inch bust & 22 inch waist would I feel be
slightly corseted rather than extreme

As I said before human remains tend to be smaller then(particularly urban
European), so I think these seem to be for small (for our times) physically
slim people as you say.

Are these US garments by the way ?

Mel

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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Fri Apr 25 15:49:11 2003
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From: "Melanie Wilson" <MelanieWilson@dragonflight.co.uk>
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Subject: [h-cost] Taschen fashion book Recommendation.
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Whilst looking for books on Elizabethan costume I picked this up at out
local remaindered outlet
http://www.taschen.com/pages/en/catalogue/books/fashion/all/facts/01839.htm

LOADS of extant garment examples, recommended for anyone who likes those
periods

Mel

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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Fri Apr 25 15:58:41 2003
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Taschen fashion book Recommendation.
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Oh, yeah. It starts around what -- 1750? No Elizabethan stuff in there...
But it's *amazing*. It contains most (if not all) of what is found in
Revolution in Fashion. It's from the Kyoto Costume Institute. It's well,
well worth the investment.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Melanie Wilson" <MelanieWilson@dragonflight.co.uk>
To: "LIST H costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Friday, April 25, 2003 3:53 PM
Subject: [h-cost] Taschen fashion book Recommendation.


> Whilst looking for books on Elizabethan costume I picked this up at out
> local remaindered outlet
>
http://www.taschen.com/pages/en/catalogue/books/fashion/all/facts/01839.htm
>
> LOADS of extant garment examples, recommended for anyone who likes those
> periods
>
> Mel
>
> This e-mail, and any attachment, is confidential. If you have received
> it in error, please delete it from your system, do not use or disclose
> the information in any way, and notify me immediately. The contents of
> this message may contain personal views which are not the views of the
> Company, unless specifically stated.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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Those of you using my h-costume search engine will have noticed that it's
been broken for about 2 weeks.

I've recently upgraded it from it's 3+ year old Linux to something new;
but lots of things changed.

As a result I've had to move the search engine.

If you get to it from the following them all is well:

	http://sca.uwaterloo.ca/~fashion

Or you can use the shortcut to the new search engine:

	http://sca.uwaterloo.ca/Fashion


For the eternally curious.  I'm now the father of twins.  There really
isn't time for costuming.  Hmm, there isn't time for much of anything;
not even sleep.

Relatives and in-laws that are willing to move in can be a god send.
Get some before you get twins!!

 - Eric
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Victorian Corsets
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I started doing theater costuming in 1965.  At that time I could still fit
1950's clothing with little alteration...36"bust would usually be followed
by 24-5" waist and 35-6 hips.  Today, the college kids I work with are
average(say the Directors) and their busts run about 38-40" and 'small'
waists are usually about 30-32". Those with 36" busts will be 27-9". In 1965
I was usually able to find shoes for the #7 1/2 to 8 1/2 foot with 9's
being large.  At this point, #9 is average and I even get asked for  #11's
on a regular basis. Great fun when the shoe has to be a character shoe. And
don,t even suggest that they ought/need to be corseted!  I think the real
vision of the American Girl is a whole lot different in the 21st century ,
fashion models aside. For sure, sports and even music (singing or wood-wind
players will notice a big difference in their chests and waists...if they
are using their diaphrames, correctly) .
Most of the costume pieces we have been discussing are US.  However, there
is a handful that are northern European. I have a couple of "Paquin" pieces
including a corset (in poor condition, I admit, but it still bears a very
nice lable) As close as I can figure, the corset size was /is approximately
27"waist.The date when it was purchased was about 1898 from family records
of a trip to Paris.
Original Message -----
From: "Melanie Wilson" <MelanieWilson@dragonflight.co.uk>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Friday, April 25, 2003 3:44 PM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Victorian Corsets


> >Mel, my guess that the garments have not been altered as you suggest they
> might have, is based on the fact that the fabric and lining is 'new'
> condition.
>
> Thanks for clarifying that
>
> >The garments that I am referring to are those of the 'average 22"
waists'.
> The other measurements (ie. bust, hips, and so forth) are about 31-33"
> /34-35"on average.  Thus my feeling that they were for genuinely small
>
> OK that sounds like a fairly normal waist size for that bust size in my
> experiance then and does not seem to support excessive corsetry.
>
> At a 36 inch bust it used to be common to have a 24 inch waist (not sure
if
> this still holds ?) so a 31-33 inch bust & 22 inch waist would I feel be
> slightly corseted rather than extreme
>
> As I said before human remains tend to be smaller then(particularly urban
> European), so I think these seem to be for small (for our times)
physically
> slim people as you say.
>
> Are these US garments by the way ?
>
> Mel
>
> This e-mail, and any attachment, is confidential. If you have received
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> Company, unless specifically stated.
>
>
>
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Subject: [h-cost] Re:baby-garb
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The only thing I can add to what Kimiko said was that it's not a bad 
idea to put a tuck in the shoulder, and a couple somewhere along the 
sleeve, to allow for growth.

I made my son a tunic when he was 2 that was pretty much as long as it 
should be for that age, when belted up just a tad.  He wore it through 
when he was 5 1/2... though the last time he wore it it was getting just 
a tad short to be used as a shirt over leggings.

-Elisabeth


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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Jean Waddie <anne@montgomerie.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Renaissance Footnotes
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I know a couple of people from the group.  I don't have their email, but 
I've put out a shout on another list for them to get in touch.

Jean

Kitsune242@aol.com wrote
>Is there a member of this list that belongs to the following url?
>
>http://www.hants.gov.uk/basdance/index3.html
>
>Thanks,
>Kit
>
>If you walk a mile in someone else's shoes, do you get to keep them? -
>Kenneth Cole
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Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 18:05:58 +0100
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Jean Waddie <anne@montgomerie.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] class on researching mistakes
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Also the historical equivalent, that for a lot of history copying 
previous writers/artists was considered good form, so you can follow a 
picture through several centuries and it doesn't necessarily represent 
clothes current at the time the book was made.

And stylistic fashions in art and sculpture, particularly in treatment 
of drapery, so that there seems to be a dramatic change in clothing 
which is actually just a change in ways of depicting it.

All this before naturalistic art became the norm.

Jean


Audrey Bergeron-Morin <audreybmorin2@hotmail.com> wrote
>True.
>Also, assuming that because a lot of books say something, it has to be true.
>You have to remember that a lot of writers just say what others said before,
>trusting that their research was good. You lose a lot of the original
>details that way, things get reinterpreted wrong or misquoted, or even maybe
>the original author didn't interpret something the right way.
>
>Hmm, also the problem with book that reinterpret things, such as the Peacock
>book of costume, in which all the costumes are redrawn, most in the wrong
>silhouette and a lot I can't find any evidence for.
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Lavolta Press" <fran@lavoltapress.com>
>To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
>Sent: Wednesday, April 23, 2003 4:49 PM
>Subject: Re: [h-cost] class on researching mistakes
>
>
>> Assuming that only one or two types of source are valid and only examining
>> those, instead of all information available.
>>
>> Assuming all secondary sources are worthless.
>>
>> Assuming that because other people in your group say something is true, it
>is.
>>
>> Assuming that because people outside your group say something is true, it
>> must be false.
>>
>> Assuming that only designated "experts" should research and everyone else
>> should simply accept what they say.
>>
>> Using research and its results as a tool for social competition.
>>
>> Assuming that what people wore in any given period can be boiled down to a
>> short, strongly worded set of "facts" and that nothing beyond this is
>valid.
>>
>> Assuming that an ultimate truth about the past can be always (or even
>> usually!) be discerned.
>>
>> Fran
>>
>>
>>
>> At 11:32 PM 4/22/2003 -0500, you wrote:
>> >I'm considering teaching a class at an uncoming event on research methods
>> >and mistakes.  I can handle the "how to do research" part just fine.
>What
>> >I'd like is suggestions of mistakes people commonly make in doing
>> >research.  What sorts of things would you like to see included in such a
>class?
>>
>> Lavolta Press Books on Historic Costuming
>> http://www.lavoltapress.com
>> Historic and Vintage Dance
>> http://www.lavoltapress.com/dance
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> h-costume mailing list
>> h-costume@mail.indra.com
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>>
>_______________________________________________
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Taschen fashion book Recommendation.
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 22:08:34 +0100
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>Oh, yeah. It starts around what -- 1750? No Elizabethan stuff in there...

Sadly no :(

>But it's *amazing*. It contains most (if not all) of what is found in
Revolution in Fashion. It's from the Kyoto Costume Institute. It's well,
well worth the investment.

Yes & I got it cheap (slight gloat !)

Mel



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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Victorian Corsets
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>At that time I could still fit
1950's clothing with little alteration...36"bust would usually be followed
by 24-5" waist and 35-6 hips.

My Mum (curse her ;)) still can wear her 50 & 60 stuff :)

>Today, the college kids I work with are
average(say the Directors) and their busts run about 38-40" and 'small'
waists are usually about 30-32".

That is quite big, I'm not sure UK kids are quite as large as that would
they be teenagers ?
Post adolecents(sp?) ?

> Those with 36" busts will be 27-9".

I wonder then what effects the earlier tendancy to pubety has on body shape
?

Excersise is in I know, but it was when I was a teenager, moree so than now
(here) I think

> In 1965
I was usually able to find shoes for the #7 1/2 to 8 1/2 foot with 9's
being large.  At this point, #9 is average and I even get asked for  #11's
on a regular basis.

Average shoe size her used to be UK 4 I don't know any women except my Mum &
Sister whjo are that now, 5-6 (8-8.5 US) is the norm and much bigger not
that unusual 8UK are stocked regularly

>For sure, sports and even music (singing or wood-wind
players will notice a big difference in their chests and waists...if they
are using their diaphrames, correctly) .

But Victorian women sang, at parties and all sorts of social events. Sports
is another matter, but many rode, some did more vigerous sports but few to
the extent that is common now.

I don't know much about bodies from the US, I'd guess Urban dwellers were
small too, maybe some rural types were bigger if the farming was good & they
had been at it a while, but it is way out of my area :)

Mel

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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Fri Apr 25 19:27:17 2003
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Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 18:27:13 -0500
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I, too, found several things I'd like to buy.  If you don't want to go to
the trouble of putting them all on ebay, perhaps there are enough of us who
want to buy them so you can make back some of your investment AND know they
went to good homes. ;-)  And perhaps you'd see them again on the garments of
their new families...

Would you be willing to list some prices for us on this list?  Or maybe a
private group email to those who have inquired so as not to clog up the
list?

Thanks!

Allison P.

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From: "Penny Ladnier" <penny@costumegallery.com>
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Subject: [h-cost] Article: Form and Deformity: Corsets
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Sharon put an article on her website written in 1919 by a doctor.  It is
called Form and Deformity: The Corset
http://www.grannyscloset.net/deform.htm

Penny Ladnier
Owner, The Costume Gallery & Costume Classroom
http://www.costumegallery.com
http://www.costumeclassroom.com
http://www.onlinecostumeball.com


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Penny,
There is also some rather graphic information on corset deformity in the book "Light of the
Home". I'd studied Victorian fashion / culture for almost 12 years,
& never heard of the *pessiary* until reading about it in this book & then was thoroughly
grossed out when I learned what it was. A pessiary was a small, ladel-like metal or wood
device used to literally hold a womans' insides inside her, after tight-lacing caused her
uterus to actually start uh, *seeping* out of her. It makes sense- I mean, internal organs can
only be smushed together for so long until they begin start popping outta you. Icky huh?!!
~Lisa

> Sharon put an article on her website written in 1919 by a doctor.  It is
> called Form and Deformity: The Corset
> http://www.grannyscloset.net/deform.htm

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In a message dated 4/25/2003 7:21:24 PM Central Standard Time, martyr@gti.net 
writes:

> Penny,
> There is also some rather graphic information on corset deformity in the 
> book "Light of the
> Home". I'd studied Victorian fashion / culture for almost 12 years,
> &never heard of the *pessiary* until reading about it in this book &then 
> was thoroughly
> grossed out when I learned what it was

Great Googaly-Moogaly!

I just did a Google on pessiary and found a few message boards talking about 
how great they when tight-lacing, etc. Some of them come with "pleasure 
knobs" and urethra tubes...and special holes for your period. 

Me, personally, would opt to not do something that might cause your womb to 
flop out. 

Sarra Wryght
http://www.livejournal.com/users/loreleisedai/
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Lisa,
I ad heard of a pessiary, probably only because I'm a nurse and they are used by ob/gyn's for women with bladder and uterine prolapse...have NEVER heard of them being used in this vein! 

>Me, personally, would opt to not do something that might cause your womb to 
flop out. 

I'm with you, Sara!
Sharon

Granny's Closet...a Peek into the Past
http://www.grannyscloset.net

The Costume Gallery
(on staff)
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Audrey Bergeron-Morin wrote:
> Hi,
> One of my friends is going to have a baby soon and we're going to make him
> some SCA-wearable things. I have a pattern, but it's 2-4 years. I'm aiming
> more at a 6-12 months size.

	I realize that what you're looking for is much older than 
what I'm going to mention, but what I saw was just so cute 
it might bear keeping in mind for earlier on. When one of 
our local Landsknecht ladies had a baby, she brought him out 
when he was a couple of months old - dressed in one of 
daddy's old sleeves! It gave a lovely neck ruff and was long 
enough to cover the baby and look like a "gown" (I don't 
remember if they just kept him like that or if they cut 
holes for his arms). It was really cute. Obvious won't work 
for 6-12 month old, but if your friend wants to bring the 
baby out earlier it's a thought.

	-Judy Mitchell (just wanted to share)

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From: Gail & Scott Finke <gailscott@eos.net>
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For any who might be interested, I was just sent the URL for a movie opening
this fall about St. Therese (the "Little Flower"). It's supposed to be an
inspirational family movie. There's not much on the site but the flash
version does have stills from the film, which shows the costuming. It looks
pretty good, although I did notice that St. Therese had a lot of makeup on
when she was wearing her habit!

For those unfamiliar with the story, St. Therese grew up in Liseaux, the
youngest of a bunch of daughters in a very devout Catholic family (they all
became nuns, so you can see how devout they were). She was sickly, TB I
think, and she petitioned to be allowed into a convent (Carmelite, maybe?)
early. She died in her early 20s, but her autobiography "The Story of a
Soul" is one of the most widely-read religious works in the world. The movie
seems to tell the story of her life, so it should have lots of 19th-century
clothes. The URL:

www.theresemovie.com

Did anyone see the Easter movie on St. Francis on the Hallmark Channel? I
saw an ad and checked out the website, but I don't have cable. The costumes
looked horrendous. I just can't stand bad costumes in a movie! I don't mind
artistic license, but there's no excuse for just plain BAD costumes. It's
not as if no one knows what people wore back then!

Gail Finke


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> Sharon put an article on her website written in 1919 by a doctor.  It
> is called Form and Deformity: The Corset
> http://www.grannyscloset.net/deform.htm

This is great. I used to have an old medical book from about that 
time which said basically the same thing. It showed autopsy views of 
what they looked like inside. (Good quality redrawings in comparison 
to the rather crude drawings that went with the 1919 article. They 
almost looked like photographs if you didn't know about the 
technology available at the time.)

That book also talked about the difference in the way a woman 
breathes and the way a man breathes. (One was called "bucket handle 
breathing" but I don't recall the other.) In medical school we 
learned that it was no longer felt to be because of male/female 
anatomy differences but was due to the shallower breaths that women 
wearing corsets (who were the ones the doctors studied at the time) 
did. This is opposed to breathing from the diaphragm the way most of 
us breathe when not constricted or using bad posture.

Kat
<kat@redtrollforge.com>


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From: Stacey <anastasi5@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Article: Form and Deformity: Corsets
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All this talk about falling uteri makes me wonder if
it was the tightlacing, or the atrophy of the muscle
caused by the tightlacing.  I know some contemporary
elderly women (my aunt-in-law included) who never
exercised will drop theirs.


--- kat@grendal.rain.com wrote:
> 
> > Sharon put an article on her website written in
> 1919 by a doctor.  It
> > is called Form and Deformity: The Corset
> > http://www.grannyscloset.net/deform.htm
> 
> This is great. I used to have an old medical book
> from about that 
> time which said basically the same thing. It showed
> autopsy views of 
> what they looked like inside. (Good quality
> redrawings in comparison 
> to the rather crude drawings that went with the 1919
> article. They 
> almost looked like photographs if you didn't know
> about the 
> technology available at the time.)
> 
> That book also talked about the difference in the
> way a woman 
> breathes and the way a man breathes. (One was called
> "bucket handle 
> breathing" but I don't recall the other.) In medical
> school we 
> learned that it was no longer felt to be because of
> male/female 
> anatomy differences but was due to the shallower
> breaths that women 
> wearing corsets (who were the ones the doctors
> studied at the time) 
> did. This is opposed to breathing from the diaphragm
> the way most of 
> us breathe when not constricted or using bad
> posture.
> 
> Kat
> <kat@redtrollforge.com>
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume


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From: Allison <allivox@comcast.net>
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Hi, guys!

Because I have so carefully organized my Costume Con notes <snort> I have,
of course, misplaced - lost - tossed - my carefully made and saved list of
contacts.  Of course.  So, Marie and Kay would you please email me?  (I
think I've got everyone else from the lists.)

Thanks.

Allison P. - wondering how long I can blame my faulty memory on my
hysterectomy...

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I agree wholeheartedly with Gail.  But those with religious themes seem to concentrate more on the story and are notorious for BAD costuming.  Have to relate this one:  there is an "inspirational" video being passed out by one of the more evangelical modern churches --the one that sends out young folks to proselitize and try to inform others about the religion.  I borrowed it because I am a student of social history, and I understood the film had in it certain interesting 19th c. social commentary, and that it covered a long timeline from the late 18th to the early 20th century.  I also have some friends in this church, and I thought it would help me to understand their motivations a bit better.  But I digress.  The clothing was so bad it detracted from my being able to concentrate on the video.  Most of the women were in the expected stereotypical late 19th c. prairie dresses, even in the 1820s.  That was almost to be expected,  However, in one scenario, set in the early 18!
 40s, one of the central characters is moving west and is constantly being shot in a slat bonnet that is worn UPSIDE DOWN!  It was really provoking and even tho' the actress was actually very good, I could not take her seriously because of that stupid bonnet... she looked like an Edwardian baby doll in a pram because the part that is supposed to fall down behind her back was on top of her head and stuck out in a very crazy fashion.  She reminded me of Amelia Bedelia.  The men's clothing was even worse --they often put them in flannel plaid shirts, and even in the late 18th c. shots the men were wearing modern corduroy jeans that zipped!  Aaggh!  I wish people would realize that many of us are more savvy than perhaps audiences were in the past, and that it really detracts from what otherwise may be an interesting piece if the clothing is that bad.  It was obvious that whoever did the costuming either had done absolutely no research, or it just was not a priority to the direct!
 or to have the clothing done right.  But it is very confusing !
 to try t
o follow a difficult storyline that covers over 100 years, if you can't tell from looking at the characters even what century they are supposed to be in.

Phoebe

--- Gail & Scott Finke <gailscott@eos.net> wrote:
>
>
>For any who might be interested, I was just sent the URL for a movie opening
>this fall about St. Therese (the "Little Flower"). It's supposed to be an
>inspirational family movie. There's not much on the site but the flash
>version does have stills from the film, which shows the costuming. It looks
>pretty good, although I did notice that St. Therese had a lot of makeup on
>when she was wearing her habit!
>
>For those unfamiliar with the story, St. Therese grew up in Liseaux, the
>youngest of a bunch of daughters in a very devout Catholic family (they all
>became nuns, so you can see how devout they were). She was sickly, TB I
>think, and she petitioned to be allowed into a convent (Carmelite, maybe?)
>early. She died in her early 20s, but her autobiography "The Story of a
>Soul" is one of the most widely-read religious works in the world. The movie
>seems to tell the story of her life, so it should have lots of 19th-century
>clothes. The URL:
>
>www.theresemovie.com
>
>Did anyone see the Easter movie on St. Francis on the Hallmark Channel? I
>saw an ad and checked out the website, but I don't have cable. The costumes
>looked horrendous. I just can't stand bad costumes in a movie! I don't mind
>artistic license, but there's no excuse for just plain BAD costumes. It's
>not as if no one knows what people wore back then!
>
>Gail Finke
>
>
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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Sat Apr 26 11:13:49 2003
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Article: Form and Deformity: Corsets
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> That book also talked about the difference in the way a woman 
> breathes and the way a man breathes. (One was called "bucket handle 
> breathing" but I don't recall the other.) In medical school we 
> learned that it was no longer felt to be because of male/female 
> anatomy differences but was due to the shallower breaths that women 
> wearing corsets (who were the ones the doctors studied at the time) 
> did. This is opposed to breathing from the diaphragm the way most of 
> us breathe when not constricted or using bad posture.
> 
> Kat

If you wear corsetry that doesn't bind your floating ribs you can breathe
like a normal person. Also, a lot of people seem to lace their corsetry
too tight. nasty. :/

A friend made me a barrel corset. It's main mission in life is to hold a
very heavy italian ren gown up and absorb the weight, but also to be one
I can sing in. It's pretty comfortable and I can inhale down to my toes
in it. It lets your lungs and muscles do what they were designed to do.

Arlys 

("Mikes? We don't need no stinkin' mikes!")

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From: Margo Anderson <margo@margospatterns.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Article: Form and Deformity: Corsets
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At 07:04 AM 04/26/2003 -0700, Stacey wrote:
>All this talk about falling uteri makes me wonder if
>it was the tightlacing, or the atrophy of the muscle
>caused by the tightlacing.  I know some contemporary
>elderly women (my aunt-in-law included) who never
>exercised will drop theirs.
>

It was also caused by trauma to the pelvic muscles during a difficult
childbirth. It's not a common problem in young women anymore now that they
do C-sections routinely for such births. 

Margo

"One Tough Costumer"
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I wonder if anyone would know if more women suffered prolapsed uteruses 
then than now...
Pessaries are still used today, and women still suffer from prolapse.


On Friday, April 25, 2003, at 05:59 PM, LoreleiMorte@aol.com wrote:

> In a message dated 4/25/2003 7:21:24 PM Central Standard Time, 
> martyr@gti.net
> writes:
>
>> Penny,
>> There is also some rather graphic information on corset deformity in 
>> the
>> book "Light of the
>> Home". I'd studied Victorian fashion / culture for almost 12 years,
>> &never heard of the *pessiary* until reading about it in this book 
>> &then
>> was thoroughly
>> grossed out when I learned what it was
>
> Great Googaly-Moogaly!
>
> I just did a Google on pessiary and found a few message boards talking 
> about
> how great they when tight-lacing, etc. Some of them come with "pleasure
> knobs" and urethra tubes...and special holes for your period.
>
> Me, personally, would opt to not do something that might cause your 
> womb to
> flop out.
>
> Sarra Wryght
> http://www.livejournal.com/users/loreleisedai/
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Allison wrote:

>
>
>Allison P. - wondering how long I can blame my faulty memory on my
>hysterectomy...
>
Now there's a trick I didn't try after mine!  Actually, I didn't end up 
getting much slack (or help, for that matter) afterwards - more power to 
you if you are!

Karen - who had all that unpleasantness done *many* years ago

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From: Kimiko Small <kimiko@kimiko1.com>
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At 07:46 AM 4/26/2003 -0700, you wrote:
>A friend made me a barrel corset.

What is a barrel corset?

Kimiko



Kimiko Small
Costumer, Fiber Artist, Web Designer, Wife and Mother
kimiko@kimiko1.com; http://www.kimiko1.com

Graphic Intern at Costume Gallery
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My suggestion would be to put a piece of tissue over your flash
>when taking close up shots of shiny stuff and you won't get the bounce
>back that makes the piece look blurry.

I think that's a brilliant idea!!

>
>         I have been merchanting in SCA for about a year and have found it
>rather fun.  Most people don't make an issue of haggling and if you say
>the price is firm they either take it or leave it.  So give it a try and
>see how it goes.  It doesn't cost anything to try and you might find it
>fun.
>
When I merchant I have a sign that says "If you wont haggle,  I can't lower 
prices.".  I appreciate people letting me know when they really want 
something but don't have "quite that much" to spend.  Some of my items have 
very small haggle margins, but some of them can be had for a steal if you 
play the game with me.

I would say that SCA merchants are some of the most helpful, informative, 
and fun loving people I've ever met.  I only merchant once in a while, but 
I've always been next to others who were great to work beside.  Don't be 
afraid to give it a try.

Jen
>Lalah
>Never give up, Never surrender
>_______________________________________________
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>h-costume@mail.indra.com
>http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume


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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Sun Apr 27 00:32:13 2003
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From: "Jennifer Sena" <distantdesigns@hotmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Patterns
Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 21:33:29 -0700
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Tania,

I finished the great purple corset and amazingly enough I can wear it.  I'm 
usually a size16-18 these days, but made the corset a 14 because that is my 
goal size.  I tried it on for kicks and if it's laced pretty tight, even 
with the 4-6" gap in the back, I can wear it for a while.  I used the 
pattern with the bust/hip gussets but I can't remember the number.

I plan to make one for real in the size 16 so I can get used to a corset 
before I have to start measuring for my 1894 walking gown outfit for the car 
show.  I still haven't made up the one without the gussets yet, but I'll let 
you know how it does.

Jennifer



Jennifer Sena
Distant Designs
http://home.teleport.com/~cedric/distdesi

I wont hurt you, I just want to dress you up!!





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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Sun Apr 27 03:46:23 2003
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Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 00:47:26 -0700 (PDT)
From: Tania Gruning <tania_gr17@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Patterns
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
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Status: RO

Hi Jennifer.I have decided that a 20 inch corset would be fitting. I am an intermediate seamstress and I've read the instructions on the patterns at farthinggales.com. The one with the hip and bust gusset seems to be a little out of my league right now but I want them both. I fully intend to make at least one from each pattern. If it turns out good and I like to make them, I might have a business :-)Tania

Jennifer Sena <distantdesigns@hotmail.com> wrote:Tania,

I finished the great purple corset and amazingly enough I can wear it. I'm 
usually a size16-18 these days, but made the corset a 14 because that is my 
goal size. I tried it on for kicks and if it's laced pretty tight, even 
with the 4-6" gap in the back, I can wear it for a while. I used the 
pattern with the bust/hip gussets but I can't remember the number.

I plan to make one for real in the size 16 so I can get used to a corset 
before I have to start measuring for my 1894 walking gown outfit for the car 
show. I still haven't made up the one without the gussets yet, but I'll let 
you know how it does.

Jennifer



Jennifer Sena
Distant Designs
http://home.teleport.com/~cedric/distdesi

I wont hurt you, I just want to dress you up!!





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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Sun Apr 27 03:57:07 2003
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Article: Form and Deformity: Corsets
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> I wonder if anyone would know if more women suffered prolapsed 
> uteruses then than now...
> Pessaries are still used today, and women still suffer from prolapse.

My suggestion was along those same lines. That the prevalence to have a 
prolapsed uterus was simply exaccerbated by tightlacing. My aunt had a 
prolapsed uterus and it's something women in my family should think about.

We are also all hypermobile (which might be a contributing facter) which 
affects about 5% of the population. And there are varying degrees of 
 this which probably affects even more women.

Also a lot of the skeletons and bodies autosied were from women who by 
their social class probably never tightlaced in their life. It's not a 
simple equation of:

woman +  dead + victorian age + deformities = deformities caused by 
tightlacing.

Just as the current diabetes rise in is caused by milk consumption. Milk 
consumption hasn't really gone up in the countiries where diabetes (type 
2) is on the rise. And even if it was that's not the proof needed to 
show milk consumption is the cause. A much more sedentary lifestyle and 
prepared foods high in fats and sugars are the more likely culprit.

So I would take these articles with a grain of salt as they are from a 
biased point of view anyway.

michaela
http://glittersweet.com
(just trying out mozilla.....)


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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Sun Apr 27 10:32:41 2003
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Status: RO

Technically this isn't for a historical costume (it's for a fantasy costume 
instead, a LOTR costume), but since there are so many people here, I decided 
to ask.  
I'm looking for pre-quilted velvet, specifically in a dark/chocolate brown 
shade.  I've been told that it's possible to find, but in two days of online 
searching, I've had no luck (and the local fabric store?  Not only is it not 
available, but it would be $60 and up, if it was).  Does anyone know where I 
would be able to find such an apparently "niche-like" fabric?  It's for 
Eowyn's "Shield Maiden" gown, specifically the bottom half of the vest (well, 
it's really a vest beneath a bodice that starts beneath the bust).

Christine
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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Sun Apr 27 12:31:26 2003
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From: "Kim Baird" <kbaird@cableone.net>
To: "'Historical Costume'" <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: RE: [h-cost] Fabric Finding Help
Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 11:32:53 -0500
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It would be very easy to just get the velvet and quilt it yourself. AND
cheaper!

Kim

-----Original Message-----
From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com]
On Behalf Of IceGirlNIN@aol.com
Sent: Sunday, April 27, 2003 9:33 AM
To: h-costume@indra.com
Subject: [h-cost] Fabric Finding Help

Technically this isn't for a historical costume (it's for a fantasy
costume 
instead, a LOTR costume), but since there are so many people here, I
decided 
to ask.  
I'm looking for pre-quilted velvet, specifically in a dark/chocolate
brown 
shade.  I've been told that it's possible to find, but in two days of
online 
searching, I've had no luck (and the local fabric store?  Not only is it
not 
available, but it would be $60 and up, if it was).  Does anyone know
where I 
would be able to find such an apparently "niche-like" fabric?  It's for 
Eowyn's "Shield Maiden" gown, specifically the bottom half of the vest
(well, 
it's really a vest beneath a bodice that starts beneath the bust).

Christine
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Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 09:36:37 -0700
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Article: Form and Deformity: Corsets
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It's basically a tube with lacings--it has no contours. It's not designed
to remold your body at all, but rather works with the shape you have.

Arlys

On Sat, 26 Apr 2003 21:14:46 -0700 Kimiko Small <kimiko@kimiko1.com>
writes:
> At 07:46 AM 4/26/2003 -0700, you wrote:
> >A friend made me a barrel corset.
> 
> What is a barrel corset?
> 
> Kimiko
> 
> 
> 
> Kimiko Small
> Costumer, Fiber Artist, Web Designer, Wife and Mother
> kimiko@kimiko1.com; http://www.kimiko1.com
> 
> Graphic Intern at Costume Gallery
> http://www.costumegallery.com
> 
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Just remember this important tip:  no matter how tightly or loosely you lace 
your corset, your stomach will have almost nowhere to go when you put food 
into it, so eat lightly and often.  I learned this one the hard way.



Nancy Kiel
nancy_kiel@hotmail.com
Never tease a weasel!
This is very good advice.
For the weasel will not like it
And teasing isn't nice.





>From: Tania Gruning <tania_gr17@yahoo.com>
>Reply-To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
>To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
>Subject: [h-cost] Victorian Corsets
>Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 15:08:43 -0700 (PDT)
>
>
>I have been doing some reseach about corsets, as I intend to make some. I 
>did come across sources that indicates waist in the size of 15-16 inchs. 
>Are these sources true or is it exaggeration and wishfull thinking? What 
>would be a reasonable compression? I have a 26 inch waist and I can almost 
>close the 22 inch of the rack corset I bought last year without discomfort.
>
>Tania
>
>
>
>---------------------------------
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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] a schole-house for the needle
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I'd love to buy a repro, despite the price.  Do you have contact info to
pass on? <g>
--sue

rob and laurie gage wrote:
> 
> Greetings all!
> I've been searching the web for a used copy of this book to no avail. I
> have found several good images on different sites , but I'd really like
> a copy of my own.
> The owners of the original (or one of them) are selling repros, but
> they don't accept credit or debit cards and they don't have an order
> site. A few needlework merchants sell the repros, but at $45-$50 a pop
> it's a bit out of my range.
> Does anyone on the list know where I can get a used copy, or one less
> expensively? I've checked Barnes and Noble, half.com and Amazon with no
> results.
> If anyone has any brilliant ideas, please let me know.
> Much thanks,
> Laurie Gage
> rlgage@adelphia.net
> 
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Perhaps they had different types of corsets for different activities?



Nancy Kiel
nancy_kiel@hotmail.com
Never tease a weasel!
This is very good advice.
For the weasel will not like it
And teasing isn't nice.
>
> >For sure, sports and even music (singing or wood-wind
>players will notice a big difference in their chests and waists...if they
>are using their diaphrames, correctly) .
>
>But Victorian women sang, at parties and all sorts of social events. Sports
>is another matter, but many rode, some did more vigerous sports but few to
>the extent that is common now.


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In a message dated 4/27/2003 12:33:39 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
kbaird@cableone.net writes:


> It would be very easy to just get the velvet and quilt it yourself. AND
> cheaper!
> 
> 

And I was just thinking that $60 a yard sounds very reasonable, considering 
the extreme hassle of quilting it yourself!  You would probably need an even 
feed food to do it.  I didn't have one, and paid $100 for one for my Bernina. 
 Now I grant you, that is a long-term investment, but even the unquilted 
velvet isn't going to be cheap, either, and the stuff is going to creep like 
the dickens unless you hand quilt it.  And you also have to buy the fill and 
the backing.  But it sounds like you don't need a great deal, so maybe hand 
quilting is an option.
Ann Wass
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In a message dated 4/27/03 5:29:46 PM Eastern Daylight Time, AnnBWass@aol.com 
writes:

> >
> 
> And I was just thinking that $60 a yard sounds very reasonable, considering 
> 
> the extreme hassle of quilting it yourself!  You would probably need an 
> even 
> feed food to do it.  I didn't have one, and paid $100 for one for my 
> Bernina. 
> Now I grant you, that is a long-term investment, but even the unquilted 
> velvet isn't going to be cheap, either, and the stuff is going to creep 
> like 
> the dickens unless you hand quilt it.  And you also have to buy the fill 
> and 
> the backing.  But it sounds like you don't need a great deal, so maybe hand 
> 
> quilting is an option.

Unquilted velvet in brown is between $12 and $20 a yard, depending on where I 
purchase it from.  I'd need a yard, maybe a yard and a half.  My machine 
doesn't -do- quilting (yeah, yeah, I need a new one.  I need a summer job 
first).  I also have no idea how to hand quilt <g> which is why I wanted to 
find the pre-quilted stuff.  I'm a seamstress, not a quilter.  (This is not 
meant as an offense to quilters; I just have no clue how to quilt)

Christine
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>Perhaps they had different types of corsets for different activities?

There were certainly riding corsets

Mel

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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Victorian Corsets
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When I'm working Dickens, I live on Slim Fast shakes... or similar fare.
It's a good way to get in the calories you need to have energy without
hurting in a corset... and they are much more portable than other foods.


On Sunday, April 27, 2003, at 12:58 PM, Nancy Kiel wrote:

> Just remember this important tip:  no matter how tightly or loosely 
> you lace your corset, your stomach will have almost nowhere to go when 
> you put food into it, so eat lightly and often.  I learned this one 
> the hard way.
>
>
>
> Nancy Kiel
> nancy_kiel@hotmail.com
> Never tease a weasel!
> This is very good advice.
> For the weasel will not like it
> And teasing isn't nice.
>
>
>
>
>
>> From: Tania Gruning <tania_gr17@yahoo.com>
>> Reply-To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
>> To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
>> Subject: [h-cost] Victorian Corsets
>> Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 15:08:43 -0700 (PDT)
>>
>>
>> I have been doing some reseach about corsets, as I intend to make 
>> some. I did come across sources that indicates waist in the size of 
>> 15-16 inchs. Are these sources true or is it exaggeration and 
>> wishfull thinking? What would be a reasonable compression? I have a 
>> 26 inch waist and I can almost close the 22 inch of the rack corset I 
>> bought last year without discomfort.
>>
>> Tania
>>
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------
>> Do you Yahoo!?
>> The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo.
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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Lavolta Press <fran@lavoltapress.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Victorian Corsets
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I have three original patterns for late 1860s knitted and crocheted corsets 
(two are published in my book _Reconstruction Era Fashions_).  They may be 
for neglige wear but it's hard to tell.

Fran

At 11:45 PM 4/27/2003 +0100, you wrote:
> >Perhaps they had different types of corsets for different activities?
>
>There were certainly riding corsets
>
>Mel
>
>This e-mail, and any attachment, is confidential. If you have received
>it in error, please delete it from your system, do not use or disclose
>the information in any way, and notify me immediately. The contents of
>this message may contain personal views which are not the views of the
>Company, unless specifically stated.
>
>
>http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

Lavolta Press Books on Historic Costuming
http://www.lavoltapress.com
Historic and Vintage Dance
http://www.lavoltapress.com/dance 


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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Sun Apr 27 20:24:19 2003
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Subject: [h-cost] OT: making fabric from paper
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I've seen really neat things being done with paper being laminated into 
a stiff sort of fabric...
really cool pieces being made out of old comic books or newpapers, etc. 
  I wanted to try some
of that for an art-wearable project and I thought I'd ask this group 
before I went out and bought
every kind of laminating solution ... has anyone ever done this?  got 
any ideas for how to turn
paper into fabric?

.heather.

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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Sun Apr 27 20:26:57 2003
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From: "Megan M." <megan@benchite.com>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: RE: [h-cost] Fabric Finding Help
Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 20:26:56 -0400
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What kind of machine do you have that *doesn't* do quilting?  I can quilt
even on my oldest shuttle-style treadle machines (read 1911 vintage).  If
you have a straight stitch you can quilt.  Or do you mean a particular
stitch?
Puzzled,
-Megan

-----Original Message-----
From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com]On
Behalf Of IceGirlNIN@aol.com
Sent: Sunday, April 27, 2003 5:38 PM
To: h-costume@indra.com
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Fabric Finding Help


In a message dated 4/27/03 5:29:46 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
AnnBWass@aol.com
writes:

> >
>
> And I was just thinking that $60 a yard sounds very reasonable,
considering
>
> the extreme hassle of quilting it yourself!  You would probably need an
> even
> feed food to do it.  I didn't have one, and paid $100 for one for my
> Bernina.
> Now I grant you, that is a long-term investment, but even the unquilted
> velvet isn't going to be cheap, either, and the stuff is going to creep
> like
> the dickens unless you hand quilt it.  And you also have to buy the fill
> and
> the backing.  But it sounds like you don't need a great deal, so maybe
hand
>
> quilting is an option.

Unquilted velvet in brown is between $12 and $20 a yard, depending on where
I
purchase it from.  I'd need a yard, maybe a yard and a half.  My machine
doesn't -do- quilting (yeah, yeah, I need a new one.  I need a summer job
first).  I also have no idea how to hand quilt <g> which is why I wanted to
find the pre-quilted stuff.  I'm a seamstress, not a quilter.  (This is not
meant as an offense to quilters; I just have no clue how to quilt)

Christine
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In a message dated 4/27/03 8:29:36 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
megan@benchite.com writes:
> 
> What kind of machine do you have that *doesn't* do quilting?  I can quilt
> even on my oldest shuttle-style treadle machines (read 1911 vintage).  If
> you have a straight stitch you can quilt.  Or do you mean a particular
> stitch?

Perhaps I should pay more attention in sewing class.  I'd heard that there 
were specific "quilting machines" that worked well to quilt fabric.  My 
machine does have a straight stitch (otherwise I'd be in big trouble, 
wouldn't I?).  At the moment, of course, it's not working properly, so I'm 
taking it in to the local sewing machine repair place.  It had better be 
working by May 15th, because I have an Elizabethan that's due on June 1!

Christine
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Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 15:10:35 -0700
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Chris Laning <claning@igc.org>
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At 2:39 PM -0600 4/27/03, Sue Clemenger wrote:
>I'd love to buy a repro, despite the price.  Do you have contact info to
>pass on? <g>

I'm pretty sure Lacis carries it -- that's where I got mine. The ISBN 
is 1-872665-72-1 if that helps with the searching.

It was published in 1998 by RJL Smith & Associates, Much Wenlock, 
Shropshire (England) and it's essentially a photo-facsimile of the 
pages of an extant, almost complete, period copy. I don't know how 
the author would be listed -- Richard Shorleyker (the original 
author) or John and Elizabeth Mason (owners of the copy being 
reproduced).
-- 
_________________________________________________________
O    Chris Laning
|     <claning@igc.org>
+    Davis, California
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And also maternity corsets & nursing corsets...
~Lisa

> There were certainly riding corsets

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From: Elizabeth Lear <eliz@indra.com>
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] OT: making fabric from paper
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Hinestly, you might want to ask this over on f-costume, the fantasy
costuming list.  There's probably one or more people there who do that
all the time.

						...eliz

-- 
Please allow 8-12 weeks for delivery.


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From: Michelle Plumb <mplumb@wideopenwest.com>
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Subject: [h-cost] A reliable Elna repair center in Ann Arbor, MI?
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Hello, all.

I inherited an Elna Supermatic (circa 1972), and would love to start using it!

But first it needs an overhaul (clean, oil and lube), some cams and an 
owner's manual.  Aside from that, it is in terrific shape.  ;-)

Does anyone know of a reputable Elna service center in the Ann Arbor, 
Michigan area?

And where is a good source for cams and an owner's manual?  I emailed Elna 
USA twice for information, and have yet to receive a reply.

Thanks, 
Michelle
===========================================================
                      Steve Plumb -- skplumb@wideopenwest.com
                      Michelle Plumb -- mplumb@wideopenwest.com
                                     Plymouth, Michigan  USA

"Give me ten men like Clouseau, and I could destroy the world."

					-- Herbert Lom, in
					"A Shot In the Dark"
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Try Viking Sewing Center 5235 Jackson Road

Elizabeth Young

Michelle Plumb wrote:

snip

>Does anyone know of a reputable Elna service center in the Ann Arbor, 
>Michigan area?
>  
>



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I'm still looking for the photo transfer emulsion, but this stuff
may also be part of what you're seeing:

http://www.joann.com/catalog.jhtml?PRODID=47279&CATID=24991&foreground=green
This is treated fabric that's meant to be run through an inkjet printer.
Similar to doing your own with Bubble Jet Set 2000, though I find this stuff
to run through the printer with fewer problems than my own self-made sheets.
This stuff also comes in an iron-on variety, which I've used to make patches.

Found it.  The product is called Decal-It, an image transfer emulsion made
by Plaid?  Ah, the product name may have changed.  Try "Picture This"
http://www.plaidonline.com/productDetail.asp?itemID=24951&productName=&Cat1ID=6&Cat2ID=4&Cat3ID=152&brandID=&keywords=&New=False&Closeout=False&page=1

Or the opaque form for dark fabrics:
http://www.plaidonline.com/productDetail.asp?itemID=24902&productName=&Cat1ID=6&Cat2ID=4&Cat3ID=152&brandID=&keywords=&New=False&Closeout=False&page=1

Now I know why I couldn't find the stuff anymore.  It's changed names. 

[Off to continue blockprinting another performance costume]
Lee M.Thompson-Herbert        lee@retro.com	      KoX 1995, SP4
Head Muso, White Rats Morris, Faultline Morris
Member, Knights of Xenu (1995).  Chaos Monger and Jill of All Trades.
"A head-on collision between Morticia Adams and Martha Stewart"
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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Mon Apr 28 06:52:02 2003
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Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 06:51:59 -0400
Subject: Re: [h-cost] A Schole-house for the Needle
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From: rob and laurie gage <randl@adelphia.net>
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sue,
http://www.hedgehoghandworks.com/
for $48.00
http://www.scarlet-letter.com/book/chart/bkchart4.html#schole
for $44.00

please let me know if the price is worth the repro.
thanks,
laurie

On Monday, April 28, 2003, at 02:37 AM, h-costume-request@indra.com 
wrote:

>
> Message: 2
> Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 14:39:00 -0600
> From: Sue Clemenger <mooncat@in-tch.com>
> Subject: Re: [h-cost] a schole-house for the needle
> To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
> Message-ID: <3EAC3FE4.2C14A940@in-tch.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
> I'd love to buy a repro, despite the price.  Do you have contact info 
> to
> pass on? <g>
> --sue
>

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Subject: Re: [h-cost] OT: making fabric from paper
Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 08:04:58 -0400
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Feeling a little perverse this morning...for all you paper collectors out
there. Perhaps you could take your favorite fashion plates (Godey's,
Peterson's,B&S,and such) or maybe old love letters and use these when
laminated to make a costume of the period of the artifacts?My husband has a
grande stamp collection that would be great to make fabric with...
Kathleen
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Heather Meadows" <alice@wonderland.com>
To: <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Sunday, April 27, 2003 8:25 PM
Subject: [h-cost] OT: making fabric from paper


>
>
> I've seen really neat things being done with paper being laminated into
> a stiff sort of fabric...
> really cool pieces being made out of old comic books or newpapers, etc.
>   I wanted to try some
> of that for an art-wearable project and I thought I'd ask this group
> before I went out and bought
> every kind of laminating solution ... has anyone ever done this?  got
> any ideas for how to turn
> paper into fabric?
>
> .heather.
>
> _______________________________________________
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> h-costume@mail.indra.com
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>

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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Mon Apr 28 08:37:50 2003
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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Fabric Finding Help
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>
>
>Unquilted velvet in brown is between $12 and $20 a yard, depending on where I 
>purchase it from.  I'd need a yard, maybe a yard and a half.  My machine 
>doesn't -do- quilting (yeah, yeah, I need a new one.  I need a summer job 
>first). 
>
As someone else said a normal machine quilts.. and in fact is this 
actually quilted? In't it just over sewn? Or there might be a layer 
behind it but it certainly doesn't look like htere's batting as well..

Anyway all you need to do is start with one row, then do parallel rows. 
I think the shapes are diamonds.. but you can do this either by sewing 
the rows in diamonds, so diagonal rows one way and diagonal rows the other.

But as they seem pretty square you could also sew the rows parallel with 
the selvages and perpendicular then cut the shapes on the bias. You'll 
probably get some gentle stretch to curve to the shape of a woman's body 
that way too seeing as none of the costumes have seams in the front 
(apart from Arwen's riding coat;) )

Seriously it's that simple. Which is actually much simpler than trying 
to type it out;) If you can sew boning channels you can doo this;)

michaela
going to tackle this very project soon:)
http://glittersweet.com




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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Mon Apr 28 09:36:39 2003
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Subject: [h-cost] Found heavy linen twill
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Guys,

A friend tipped me off to a site selling really heavy duty pure linen
twill fabric.  The price is rather painful, but the prices are Canadian;
and the fabric, when I saw it, was the spitting image of the twill used
for the Effigy Corset of Queen Elizabeth.

http://www.berlinembroidery.com/fabrics.htm#linentwill

Thought some of youse 16th c. guys would be interested, too.

Drea


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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Mon Apr 28 09:56:44 2003
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Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 06:35:22 -0700
From: Carolyn Kayta Barrows <kayta@frys.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Now that CostumeCon is over...
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Me me me!  I may actually get to meet some of you folks.  I may let one of 
my shoulder-sitting dolls carry my red 'H' for me, when I'm early 21st 
century..

>Who's up for going to Costume College (August 1-3 in
>L.A.), and shall we again use red "H"s to identify
>h-costume list members?
>
>Dawn
>_______________________________________________
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         CarolynKayta Barrows
dollmaker, fibre artist, textillian
           www.FunStuft.com

              //// \\\
             ////-@@\\\
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                )   ((((((
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Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 06:55:04 -0700
From: Carolyn Kayta Barrows <kayta@frys.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Victorian Corsets
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>I have been doing some reseach about corsets, as I intend to make some. I 
>did come across sources that indicates waist in the size of 15-16 inchs. 
>Are these sources true or is it exaggeration and wishfull thinking?

Think Jessica Rabbit, from the Roger Rabbit film.  Cartoons and fashion 
illustrations, yes; real life, no.

-snip-

>Doing a brief google search... Here is a site for someone who is actually 
>14.5 inches in waist.
>http://www.staylace.com/pinups/spook/

Sorry.  I don't know how they got that measurement, but the picture shows 
more than 14.5 inches around, which you can double-check by comparing with 
a 14.5 inch loop of measuring tape.  Her uncorsetted neck is possibly 14.5 
inches.

-snip-

>Also, do you remember from Little House on the Prairie that Pa could put 
>both hands around Ma's waist?  I was always told that this was a desirable 
>quality in women of that time.

Where's that urban legend page when you need it...

-snip-

>Extreme corseting was then & now not recommended. It damages your internal
>organs and can lead to failure of such vital parts, as well as effecting you
>fertility and safety in pregnancy. Doctors of the time warned against it and
>I would echo their worried now !

Not to mention what it does to the diaphragm in specific, and to the 
breathing process in general.

Meanwhile, when my smaller-built kid was two, I measured her uncorsetted 
waist, and it was 22".  And I, in what I call my housewife's model' corset, 
can bend over and touch my toes while being laced in as tight as I ever 
lace it (like 36" at the waist), proving to my own satisfaction that they 
don't have to be fetish-tight to do their job as period body-shapers.

         CarolynKayta Barrows
dollmaker, fibre artist, textillian
           www.FunStuft.com

              //// \\\
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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Mon Apr 28 10:06:03 2003
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Subject: [h-cost] copy of "The Opulent Era" for sale
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If anyone is intersted, someone has a copy of "The Opulent Era" for
sale.
I would have to say, this particular book is actually worth the $$$, if
your
interested in the fashion of this period.
~Lisa


2. The Opulent Era : Fashions of Worth, Doucet and Pingat by Coleman,
Elizabeth A. New York, NY, U.S.A.: Thames & Hudson, 1989 Soft Cover.
Very Good. 4to - over 9¾" - 12" tall. softcover edition, not hardcover.
The price of the book is US$ 200.00
The seller is Factory Books
PMB 158 320 Seventh Avenue, Brooklyn, NY, U.S.A., 11215.
<mailto:jon@factorybooks.com> Ph: 917-405-0710

 Please reference the seller's book # 000139 when ordering.
To order this book click here:
http://dogbert.abebooks.com/abe/BookDetails?ph=1&bi=202094852




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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Mon Apr 28 11:40:48 2003
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Folks, I'm going to have to be the dissenting voice on this (although by the time this makes it to the list someone else may well have said the same thing...)

I honestly do not believe that uterine prolapse was caused by corsetry.

It's caused by repeated childbearing.  I would take this back if I could find one or two well-documented instances of a nulliparous, never pregnant woman at that time who had prolapsed uterus AND who laced tightly.  Correlation does not prove causation.

Until I find a satisfactory example of this, I maintain that uterine prolapse was not caused by tight lacing.  I believe that that is what women were *told* at the time.  The polite fiction that childbearing does one no harm is still alive and well today - in fact, if anything, it is more prevalent.


Meagn
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Searching for quilted velvet:

Try some of your local upholstery fabric outlets and
upholstery shops. Upholsterers usually special-order
fabrics, and can probably order the tiny quantity you
need.

Dawn
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Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 17:11:56 +0100
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From: The Duchess <duchess@bustles-and-bows.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] OT Update on Multi regional DVDs
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At 18:14 24/04/2003 +0100, you wrote:
>For those of you in the US who were wondering about the UK & European DVDs,
>it would seem that many of the DVD players are restricted by software rather
>than hardware. If you search on  model number & manufacturers name multi
>regional and either patch or hack you can often download the relative
>software and all should be well.
>
>(No guarantees thought :))


Errr! If you go to http://www.dvdrhelp.com/dvdhacks most of the info on 
most players is listed.

Lissa

PS. Sorry if I am only popping up on this sort of thing but I'm ignorant 
when it comes to costume matters but learning a lot from the pearls that 
abound on the list. However, I am an electronics engineer and play around 
with a lot of different types of subjects of computer interest. Lissa 

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Subject: [h-cost] 17th century shoes
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hi,
i am looking for a good supplier of 17th century womens shoes, any one know 
of anywhere?
thanks
jennie





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At 06:55 28/04/2003 -0700, you wrote:
>>Doing a brief google search... Here is a site for someone who is actually 
>>14.5 inches in waist.
>>http://www.staylace.com/pinups/spook/
>
>Sorry.  I don't know how they got that measurement, but the picture shows 
>more than 14.5 inches around, which you can double-check by comparing with 
>a 14.5 inch loop of measuring tape.  Her uncorsetted neck is possibly 14.5 
>inches.

I know the couple who run the company (C&S Constructions) who make the 
corsets for Spook and her waist is 14.5 inches with the corset lacing 
closed up. However, bear in mind that she is (a) young and her bones are 
still supple, and (b) she started off with a natural 22 inch waist when 
uncorseted.

Lissa 

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Phoebe wrote:


> I agree wholeheartedly with Gail.  But those with religious themes seem to
> concentrate more on the story and are notorious for BAD costuming...

This may be true, but the show in question (something about St. Francis, I
don't recall the name) was on the Hallmark Channel, and many of the Hallmark
movies I've seen have had terrible costumes, whatever their focus. One set
around the American Civil War, which ought to be easy enough for American
costumers to manage, had costumes so bad that many high school theaters
could do better!

Gail Finke


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Meagn wrote: 

The polite fiction that childbearing does one no harm is still
> alive and well today - in fact, if anything, it is more prevalent.


I don't know what you mean by that Meagn -- it seems to me, as someone who
gave birth relatively recently, that women in general are terrified of
childbearing. So terrified that (in the US, anyway) they all go to hospitals
to have their babies (not complaining about that, that's where I had mine)
and, where I live, the Caesarian rate is more than 30%.

That said, I think you are right on the money about uterine prolapse. The
fact that doctors in the corset era blamed many problems on corsets does not
mean that they were caused by corsets. I would never say that tightlacing
was not harmful -- don't get me wrong -- but one has to look at medical
articles from 1919 about ANYTHING with a certain skepticism. I'm not an
expert but I think the other people who have already written in about other
causes for various "female problems" at the time are on the right track.

I think it's funny that modern people (not on this list! just in general)
assume that corsets were all dangerous and uncomfortable, while watching
television shows showing women, most of them far too thin to be healthy,
practically poured into their clothes and often wearing jeans that they
probably can't sit down in!

My two cents --

Gail Finke

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Have you tried Albris.com?  They seem to have nothing but used and rare books.

Jennifer

At 02:27 PM 4/23/03 -0400, you wrote:
>Greetings all!
>I've been searching the web for a used copy of this book to no avail. I 
>have found several good images on different sites , but I'd really like a 
>copy of my own.
>The owners of the original (or one of them) are selling repros, but they 
>don't accept credit or debit cards and they don't have an order site. A 
>few needlework merchants sell the repros, but at $45-$50 a pop it's a bit 
>out of my range.
>Does anyone on the list know where I can get a used copy, or one less 
>expensively? I've checked Barnes and Noble, half.com and Amazon with no 
>results.
>If anyone has any brilliant ideas, please let me know.
>Much thanks,
>Laurie Gage
>rlgage@adelphia.net
>
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>
>I don't know what you mean by that Meagn -- it seems to me, as someone who
>gave birth relatively recently, that women in general are terrified of
>childbearing. So terrified that (in the US, anyway) they all go to hospitals
>to have their babies (not complaining about that, that's where I had mine)
>and, where I live, the Caesarian rate is more than 30%.

I think the Victorians were well aware of the dangers.  Enough so that, I 
can think of several Victorian novels where the woman, or her husband, 
expresses relief after the birth that the woman has been spared 
death.  This without any unusual complications/problems having been 
mentioned. That is, no suggestion that the birth was anything but routine 
from a medical standpoint, but it was still considered a distinct 
possibility that she might die.

Fran



Lavolta Press Books on Historic Costuming
http://www.lavoltapress.com
Historic and Vintage Dance
http://www.lavoltapress.com/dance 

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Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 16:32:12 -0500
From: "Linda J. Thompson" <LindaJThompson@comcast.net>
Subject: [h-cost] Victorian Corsets
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The small waspish waists of the Victorian Era did happen, but they were the exception to 
the rule.
When you look at the old catalogs, and advert. pictures what you see is a picture that has 
been severely modified.  They commonly had the practice of taking a picture of whatever 
corset they were advertising on its metal shaper stand... (for the life of me I have 
blanked out on what it was called)  it is the thing they would steam the shape into the 
corset with..
anyway, they would take a picture of it on that, then superimpose the corset onto a 
picture of the model and then clean up the pictue and black out the areas of the females 
torso.  This way the corset could be shown in its perfect condition.  No wrinkles, no 
bumps/lumps or bunching of any kind in the contour.
Much of the product we see in magazines these days are treated the exact same way.
-- 
Linda Thompson

Attitude Is Everything
http://corsetsandcostumes.com


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After reading Lil Sorepaws post about her waist size makes me remininsce about my past days.
Can anyone else remember when the style was to wear a belt with clothing?  I was raised in 
the US during the 50's and I can remember if I wore a skirt or slacks or even shorts 
(Bermuda of course) they were always very well tailored and you always wore a belt with 
them, this was up to the mid 1960"s. My mother was a tennis player in her youth and she 
wore a belt then also. And I can remember wearing a girdle at the ripe age of 12 to give 
me that sleek smooth look under some of the skirts and to hold my stockings up.
The end result was smaller waists than what is commonly seen today.  At 14 I weighed 158 
lbs., was 5'6" and my figure was 38-24-37.  I don't recall deliberately tightening my belt 
or anything, it just fit at that size.  My waist was naturally compressed over the years 
and since you only bought a new belt when the old one was out of style, or you gained 
excessive weight, I guess it just kept your waist smaller.  Look at pictures of Marilyn 
Monroe, or Jane Mansfield, both very well fed females of very curvy proportions, and they 
had fairly small waists I believe.  I believe that compression of the soft flesh is fairly 
easy to do so severely if done over a series of weeks, months years.  I am not advocating 
doing it, (although I have many clients that do so) I am just saying it is possible to do 
so without great harm if done slowly.
-- 
Linda Thompson

Attitude Is Everything
http://corsetsandcostumes.com


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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Mon Apr 28 17:58:10 2003
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From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" <drewscph@post12.tele.dk>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
References: <3EADA17B.5050503@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Average waist size.
Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 00:02:08 +0200
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Hi.
This is very true, and i remember my father. He had his natural waist higher
than over the hips, and i think this was because it was fashionable from his
youth to wear a belt with the trousers and having them higher than normal.
My father was born in 1911.

Bjarne

Leif og Bjarne Drews
www.my-drewscostumes.dk

http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/
----- Original Message -----
From: "Linda J. Thompson" <LindaJThompson@comcast.net>
To: <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Monday, April 28, 2003 11:47 PM
Subject: [h-cost] Average waist size.


> After reading Lil Sorepaws post about her waist size makes me remininsce
about my past days.
> Can anyone else remember when the style was to wear a belt with clothing?
I was raised in
> the US during the 50's and I can remember if I wore a skirt or slacks or
even shorts
> (Bermuda of course) they were always very well tailored and you always
wore a belt with
> them, this was up to the mid 1960"s. My mother was a tennis player in her
youth and she
> wore a belt then also. And I can remember wearing a girdle at the ripe age
of 12 to give
> me that sleek smooth look under some of the skirts and to hold my
stockings up.
> The end result was smaller waists than what is commonly seen today.  At 14
I weighed 158
> lbs., was 5'6" and my figure was 38-24-37.  I don't recall deliberately
tightening my belt
> or anything, it just fit at that size.  My waist was naturally compressed
over the years
> and since you only bought a new belt when the old one was out of style, or
you gained
> excessive weight, I guess it just kept your waist smaller.  Look at
pictures of Marilyn
> Monroe, or Jane Mansfield, both very well fed females of very curvy
proportions, and they
> had fairly small waists I believe.  I believe that compression of the soft
flesh is fairly
> easy to do so severely if done over a series of weeks, months years.  I am
not advocating
> doing it, (although I have many clients that do so) I am just saying it is
possible to do
> so without great harm if done slowly.
> --
> Linda Thompson
>
> Attitude Is Everything
> http://corsetsandcostumes.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
>


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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Mon Apr 28 18:33:36 2003
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Subject: [h-cost] costume connection pattern
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I tried the Costume Connection women's cavalier pattern and I'm sorry to say 
it's in the pile of unfinished-may-never-finish costumes.   I knew it was 
inaccurate and thought I could change some of those inaccuracies and make a 
more historically correct looking costume.   No such luck.   I really don't 
recommend it.   I think   you're much better off using the Hunniset patterns. 
  I've had nothing but good luck with them.   Hope this helps.

Cheers,

Loren Dearborn
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From: "Katherine" <kcg@sprynet.com>
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Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 16:04:49 -0700
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Subject: [h-cost] Quilting Velvet-Was Fabric Finding Help
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Christine, 

I'm making this dress too.  Just finished the corset last night.  (Yay!).  I quilted the 
front panel of my corset, pretty much exactly the way Michaela describes below and 
it turned out great.  It seemed to take ages, but was extremely simple to do.  

I'm using velvet as well.  It's a chocolate brown cotton velvet and it's probably one 
of the nicest, easiest fabrics I've ever worked with.  Except for the velvet pills.  They 
went everywhere.  Yuck :)

I flat-lined the velvet layer of the corset with a layer of cotton sateen.  I tried quilting 
with and without it, and there was a huge improvement with it.  I almost didn't quilt 
it, but am very glad I did.  I ended up doing it backwards and sewing the pieces 
together and then quilting it.  I just marked the shapes on the sateen with a fabric 
marker and sewed on those lines...

I took pictures of the whole process, they're still in my digital camera.  I'll be doing a 
dress diary for this dress so they should be up within a week or two, maybe?  Not 
too much longer...

Good luck!

Katherine

> Message: 3
> Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 00:37:44 +1200
> From: michaela <thebruce@ihug.co.nz>
> >
> >Unquilted velvet in brown is between $12 and $20 a yard, depending on
> >where I purchase it from.  I'd need a yard, maybe a yard and a half.  My
> >machine doesn't -do- quilting (yeah, yeah, I need a new one.  I need a
> >summer job first). 
> 
> Anyway all you need to do is start with one row, then do parallel rows. I
> think the shapes are diamonds.. but you can do this either by sewing the
> rows in diamonds, so diagonal rows one way and diagonal rows the other.
> 

Katherine

"I go by-by."

Alexandra Feodorovna, last empress of Russia, in a letter to her husband, 
Nicholas II

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Subject: [h-cost] Western Suit Pattern?
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Hi all!  Does anyone know of patterns for Western-style suits, c. late 
1960's-early 1970's?  I'm looking for something that might work as a 
basis for a Nudie style suit (y'know, rhinestones, embroidery, Merle 
Haggard, Buck Owens, etc).  So far, I do have a pattern for a 
Western-style shirt, but it's an original from my mom's pattern 
collection dating from the early 70's.  I just need the jacket and 
pants patterns...

Sarah
http://www.elizabethanlady.com

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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Western Suit Pattern?
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Try Authentic Patterns at authenticpatterns.com.
Ann Wass
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Which country do you live in?

Glenda

----- Original Message -----
From: "jennie russell" <jennierussell@hotmail.com>
To: <h-costume@net.indra.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2003 2:28 AM
Subject: [h-cost] 17th century shoes


> hi,
> i am looking for a good supplier of 17th century womens shoes, any one
know
> of anywhere?
> thanks
> jennie
>
>
>
>
>
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From: "Penny Ladnier" <penny@costumegallery.com>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: Article: Form and Deformity: Corsets
Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 19:54:46 -0400
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Prolapsed is caused by a weakness of the muscles of the lower abdomen.  You
can also have the bladder prolapse.  My sister had both of these things
happen in the early 1990s.  She is a nurse and only had two children.  BTW,
I have had six children and have not had this problem.  I know several
people who have had multiple children.  None have had prolapsed uterus or
bladder.

>From my medical book:

"The uterus normally rests on the floor of the pelvis, held in position by
numerous ligaments.  Damage to the ligaments and other supporting tissues
permits the uterus to descend, or prolapse, into the vagina... very similar
to a hernia."

The book does not specify if childbirth causes the problem and from reading
the medical book, it sounds like it is something that one is born with
strong muscles in this area of the body or not.  I have two sons born with
hernias in the lower abdomen.  As the muscles weaken they spread apart,
allowing things to move out of place.

I can understand the thinking that a corset could cause the muscles to
weaken.  I recently asked my doctors about using a back brace.  Modern
braces are very similar to corsets.  I used one in the 80s when I had back
problems then.  Currently, every doctor and physical therapist I have
consulted have strongly objected to wearing low back braces because it
weakens the muscles quickly and that your body becomes dependant on the
brace.

Corsets were at that longest length and most restrictive from 1900-1920s.
It seems to me that this would be the generation where we would see the
largest health problems due to corsetry.  Since we still have women alive
who were born from the 1910-the 20s, I would be interested to see some
research about the effects of corsetry (from youth) on these women as
elderly people.

Another thought on this matter... as we all know every 5-10 years the
medical community does a 360 on what they believe about certain matters of
health.  Just look at the 360s they have done on what causes cancer.  This
food causes cancer, then another study comes out and says it doesn't.   The
majority of my kids have asthma.  Over the past 22 years, I have seen
doctors do a 360 at least 5 times about asthma treatment.  The point is...
the medical community changes it mind all the time as to what causes what.
One last thing, our state health dept. sent a letter to me stating that
obesity causes asthma.  I just laughed and laughed.  I showed the letter to
my GP doctor and to our pediatrician.  Both of the doctors were floored and
said, "No it doesn't!"  Both agreed that obesity can cause sleep apnea but
not asthma.  My pediatrician wrote the state asking for documentation as to
where they could make this claim.

Penny Ladnier
Owner, The Costume Gallery & Costume Classroom
http://www.costumegallery.com
http://www.costumeclassroom.com
http://www.onlinecostumeball.com


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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Mon Apr 28 20:20:53 2003
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Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 19:20:47 -0500
From: Allison <allivox@comcast.net>
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Subject: [h-cost] Re: quilted fabric
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Can't remember who asked original question - Christine, maybe?  Anyhoo -
from experience, I have advice on technique.  If you are going to quilt by
machine, sew the first row, then instead of sewing all the rest of the rows
that are parallel to this one, then sew the first row that goes in the other
direction, the back and forth until you are finished.  BE SURE TO ALTERNATE
which direction you sew.  If you don't the fabric gets all wonky and it
won't lay flat, and it looks terrible.

Allison P.

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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Found heavy linen twill
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Ouch! It is pretty highly priced, even after a Canadian/US conversion. 
Looks like nice stuff though--I might have to get some, if my tax refund
every comes....;-D
Scrolling down that same page, I see some silks, as well.  I'm not
interested in the silk noile, but what is silk "matka?"
--sue, who has *no doubt* that Drea is an evil temptress! <g>

Drea Leed wrote:
> 
> Guys,
> 
> A friend tipped me off to a site selling really heavy duty pure linen
> twill fabric.  The price is rather painful, but the prices are Canadian;
> and the fabric, when I saw it, was the spitting image of the twill used
> for the Effigy Corset of Queen Elizabeth.
> 
> http://www.berlinembroidery.com/fabrics.htm#linentwill
> 
> Thought some of youse 16th c. guys would be interested, too.
> 
> Drea
>
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From: Catherine Olanich Raymond <cathy@thyrsus.com>
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: Article: Form and Deformity: Corsets
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On Monday 28 April 2003 11:22 am, Tudorldy@aol.com wrote:
> Folks, I'm going to have to be the dissenting voice on this (although by
> the time this makes it to the list someone else may well have said the same
> thing...)
>
> I honestly do not believe that uterine prolapse was caused by corsetry.
>
> It's caused by repeated childbearing.  I would take this back if I could
> find one or two well-documented instances of a nulliparous, never pregnant
> woman at that time who had prolapsed uterus AND who laced tightly. 
> Correlation does not prove causation.

I have never been pregnant.  My uterine prolapse was caused by fibroids; I 
have never been a tight lacer.


-- 
Cathy Raymond <cathy@thyrsus.com>

"Intelligence is the ultimate aphrodisiac."  Timothy Leary
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On Monday 28 April 2003 03:34 pm, Lady Zofia Borek wrote:
> Have you tried Albris.com?  They seem to have nothing but used and rare
> books.

Addall.com has both used and new book search engines.  It searches ALibris, 
Barnes & Noble, half.com and about 20 others.

-- 
Cathy Raymond <cathy@thyrsus.com>

"Intelligence is the ultimate aphrodisiac."  Timothy Leary
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From: Sue Clemenger <mooncat@in-tch.com>
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I'd imagine it could be fear of the unknown, as much as anything.
Wait...that sounds wrong.  What I meant was, the risks of childbirth
would have been pretty well known, but on an individual level, there
would have been a lot of uncertainty.
I know if it were something I'd ever gone through (in a previous
century, or now), I'd be thankful for having made it safely through such
a life-changing experience....
--sue

Lavolta Press wrote:
> 
> >
> >I don't know what you mean by that Meagn -- it seems to me, as someone who
> >gave birth relatively recently, that women in general are terrified of
> >childbearing. So terrified that (in the US, anyway) they all go to hospitals
> >to have their babies (not complaining about that, that's where I had mine)
> >and, where I live, the Caesarian rate is more than 30%.
> 
> I think the Victorians were well aware of the dangers.  Enough so that, I
> can think of several Victorian novels where the woman, or her husband,
> expresses relief after the birth that the woman has been spared
> death.  This without any unusual complications/problems having been
> mentioned. That is, no suggestion that the birth was anything but routine
> from a medical standpoint, but it was still considered a distinct
> possibility that she might die.
> 
> Fran
> 
> Lavolta Press Books on Historic Costuming
> http://www.lavoltapress.com
> Historic and Vintage Dance
> http://www.lavoltapress.com/dance
> 
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Mon Apr 28 22:48:59 2003
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Subject: [h-cost] A costumer's dream career?
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Hello all -

I was wondering if some of you could help me. I know that you don't all
actually work in the costume/fashion fields but I know you all love costume
so I hope you'll have some insights that you're willing to share.

 In less than a month, I will be closing my historically-inspired boutique,
Alabaster,  which I've run since 1993 in Port Hope, Ontario, Canada.  In the
last ten years, my interests have become more & more defined.  They now are
almost completely costume related.  I have been a member of this list for
over 7 years & have watched with interest every time one of the members has
decided to pursue a new costume enterprise.  I am quite proficient in terms
of researching, drafting, cutting & producing historic garments & I really
love doing it.  However, I'm not sure what I should aim to do now.

Here are the questions running around in my mind-

If you could run any business or work in any capacity related to historic
costume, what would be your dream job/career?

Where would you work, what is the absolute best thing you can think of
doing?

What do you find more exciting- theatre, film, custom-work, re-enactments?

Any ideas that you might have would be most appreciated.  I can think of so
many things I'd like to do but am not sure which will actually bring in an
income (& not drive me crazy).

With much excitement & gratitude

Elizabeth

elizabeth@alabasterstyle.com




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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Mon Apr 28 23:00:03 2003
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] A costumer's dream career?
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Before anyone asks why I'm not sewing, here's my excuse: I have three APs in 
the next couple of weeks (May 5th-16th), and I have a duckling.  Yes.  
Really.  Her name's Rasha.  She thinks I'm mommy, which is adorable.  It's 
for an AP biology assignment.  Really hard to sew when you're trying to keep 
the duck occupied!

> If you could run any business or work in any capacity related to historic
> costume, what would be your dream job/career?
> 
Speaking from the perspective of a senior in highschool who has been asking 
herself similar questions, I'd love to run my own business.  It's my (likely 
a pipe) dream to open up a "base" of sorts in New York City, and do custom 
work as well as make some general, "stock" pieces.  These stock pieces would 
be your ordinary Renn-garb, made out of delicious linens, silks, and cotton.  
Everything would be natural as possible, with the exception of bodice laces 
and trims (I've never found 100% natural trim).  I'd take my stock pieces and 
some examples of custom work to rennfaires, dressed of course as a 
respectable seamstress.

> 
> What do you find more exciting- theatre, film, custom-work, re-enactments?
> 
I will never ever do theatre work again, unless they pay me well.  See the 
Margo's Patterns list for the fiasco that was Joseph and the Amazing 
Technicolor Dreamcoat.   But hey, I was dealing with teenagers- if you 
costume adults, it shouldn't be quite so...hair-raising.  I'd love to do 
custom-work and film, the most.


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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Mon Apr 28 23:10:38 2003
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From: "chiara" <chiara@io.com>
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] A costumer's dream career?
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I have done film work in the past and although I was only one of 26 on the
set I got to work on the cameo's star's trousers (John de Lancie) last time
around. :)

There is no telling you how it made me feel. I do not understand it but it
was definitely a feeling of, they trust me not to let his pants rip when he
sits down and crosses his legs. But I am sure it was just more of, you over
there here fix these fast. Sigh.

I would love to be the one that hires and works with the costuming crew on
period miniseries that are filmed more often than a period movie. Or do
stage costuming again, I really loved doing that.

Chiara

----- Original Message -----
From: "Alabaster" <mercury@eagle.ca>
To: <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Monday, April 28, 2003 9:27 PM
Subject: [h-cost] A costumer's dream career?


: Hello all -
:
: I was wondering if some of you could help me. I know that you don't all
: actually work in the costume/fashion fields but I know you all love
costume
: so I hope you'll have some insights that you're willing to share.
:
:  In less than a month, I will be closing my historically-inspired
boutique,
: Alabaster,  which I've run since 1993 in Port Hope, Ontario, Canada.  In
the
: last ten years, my interests have become more & more defined.  They now
are
: almost completely costume related.  I have been a member of this list for
: over 7 years & have watched with interest every time one of the members
has
: decided to pursue a new costume enterprise.  I am quite proficient in
terms
: of researching, drafting, cutting & producing historic garments & I really
: love doing it.  However, I'm not sure what I should aim to do now.
:
: Here are the questions running around in my mind-
:
: If you could run any business or work in any capacity related to historic
: costume, what would be your dream job/career?
:
: Where would you work, what is the absolute best thing you can think of
: doing?
:
: What do you find more exciting- theatre, film, custom-work, re-enactments?
:
: Any ideas that you might have would be most appreciated.  I can think of
so
: many things I'd like to do but am not sure which will actually bring in an
: income (& not drive me crazy).
:
: With much excitement & gratitude
:
: Elizabeth
:
: elizabeth@alabasterstyle.com
:
:
:
:
: _______________________________________________
: h-costume mailing list
: h-costume@mail.indra.com
: http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Tue Apr 29 00:02:07 2003
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Average waist size.
Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 23:59:11 -0400
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Heh, in my case I don't think it would have made much difference as I'm very
short-waisted and there's only a scant inch or two between the bottom of my
ribs and the top of my hips.  So not a lot to compress.  -.-;;

-- Maral

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Linda J. Thompson" <LindaJThompson@comcast.net>
To: <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Monday, April 28, 2003 5:47 PM
Subject: [h-cost] Average waist size.


> After reading Lil Sorepaws post about her waist size makes me remininsce
about my past days.
> Can anyone else remember when the style was to wear a belt with clothing?
I was raised in
> the US during the 50's and I can remember if I wore a skirt or slacks or
even shorts
> (Bermuda of course) they were always very well tailored and you always
wore a belt with
> them, this was up to the mid 1960"s. My mother was a tennis player in her
youth and she
> wore a belt then also. And I can remember wearing a girdle at the ripe age
of 12 to give
> me that sleek smooth look under some of the skirts and to hold my
stockings up.
> The end result was smaller waists than what is commonly seen today.  At 14
I weighed 158
> lbs., was 5'6" and my figure was 38-24-37.  I don't recall deliberately
tightening my belt
> or anything, it just fit at that size.  My waist was naturally compressed
over the years
> and since you only bought a new belt when the old one was out of style, or
you gained
> excessive weight, I guess it just kept your waist smaller.  Look at
pictures of Marilyn
> Monroe, or Jane Mansfield, both very well fed females of very curvy
proportions, and they
> had fairly small waists I believe.  I believe that compression of the soft
flesh is fairly
> easy to do so severely if done over a series of weeks, months years.  I am
not advocating
> doing it, (although I have many clients that do so) I am just saying it is
possible to do
> so without great harm if done slowly.
> -- 
> Linda Thompson
>
> Attitude Is Everything
> http://corsetsandcostumes.com
>
>
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Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 21:48:57 -0700
From: Kimiko Small <kimiko@kimiko1.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] A costumer's dream career?
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Hi Elizabeth

What a wonderful question to ask us.

At 10:27 PM 4/28/2003 -0400, you wrote:
>If you could run any business or work in any capacity related to historic
>costume, what would be your dream job/career?

I am finally pursuing my own dream of having a custom costume shop. 
Personal, small, tailored to each client, and on my own hours (very 
important with a little baby). My husband is supporting us, so I can focus 
on growing the business. I still have lots to learn about some aspects of 
design and speeding up my sewing, but I won't be learning that just 
thinking about it, you know? And I came from an accounting background, so 
this feeds my need to be creative, and I can do the books myself.

>Where would you work, what is the absolute best thing you can think of
>doing?

I work at home, but I miss the company of other people. Thankfully there 
are people online here who are helpful, and I have local costume-loving 
friends to chat with, who understand what costume is all about. If I wasn't 
doing this, I would be driven silly simply taking care of my wonderful 
little boy. I can only take so much baby talk before needing to do 
something else for a while to relax.

>What do you find more exciting- theatre, film, custom-work, re-enactments?

Custom work has been wonderful for my ego, to be blunt. But even more 
fulfilling is the thrill of seeing a happy client glowing from how they 
look in the garment I created for them. For one lady I made a simple Irish 
costume for her wedding, and I got to attend the ceremony and watch the 
happy couple as they recreated a Celtic wedding! That was a joyful 
experience for me.

I also enjoy re-enactments/ren faires and live action role playing, and 
find I enjoy the company of other faire actors. This is why I returned to 
the ren faire world.

I did many years creating Scots/Irish costumes, and know the ins and outs 
of that area. I have taught a few classes and lectures on these costumes, 
so I feel pretty good about re-creating them in my business.

However, I just joined a nobles guild, and I am realizing that I have much 
to master if I am going to re-create noble styled garments. I do ok in the 
garment creation, and thankfully enjoy doing the hand embellishments that 
make a nobles garment stand out from others. It helps me to spend time with 
the ladies and lords of court, take photos of their fine garments, and push 
myself to a higher level of accomplishment. I was pleased this weekend when 
a lady of court asked me about doing the handwork for a new dress for her. 
I love her beautifully created dresses, and to be asked to embellish a new 
dress was a nice pat on the back from this fine lady.

As for a future dream to fulfill, to create a custom garment for someone of 
note. I met Kayla Kennington at our local fiber arts guild meeting, and to 
hear that one of her garments was bought by Robin William's wife for their 
daughter, was just dreamy. Rather simple, but still dreamy. My other dream 
is to get my post-bachelor degree in costume history, or something along 
that line. But that will have to wait till I pay off my old loans and my 
baby is a bit older.

Thanks for the question again. It was nice to put that to e-paper.

Kimiko



Kimiko Small
Costumer, Fiber Artist, Web Designer, Wife and Mother
kimiko@kimiko1.com; http://www.kimiko1.com

Graphic Intern at Costume Gallery
http://www.costumegallery.com

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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Tue Apr 29 01:10:22 2003
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: Article: Form and Deformity: Corsets
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From: Sarah <sarah@elizabethanlady.com>
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> The book does not specify if childbirth causes the problem and from 
> reading
> the medical book, it sounds like it is something that one is born with
> strong muscles in this area of the body or not.  I have two sons born 
> with
> hernias in the lower abdomen.  As the muscles weaken they spread apart,
> allowing things to move out of place.

As this is drifting further away from being on topic, I'll make it 
brief:  Uterine prolapse is a lesser mentioned symptom of 
hypothyroidism.  It's right up there with other female-only thyroid 
symptoms like endometriosis, ovarian cysts, polycystic ovarian disorder 
and infertility.  I'm sure this isn't the only thing that causes it, 
but it's certainly recognized as one of the contributing factors.

Now, back to other costume-y stuff... :)

Sarah

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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Tue Apr 29 01:10:58 2003
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Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 22:09:39 -0700
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Chris Laning <claning@igc.org>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] costume movies
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At 8:07 AM -0700 4/26/03, prairielark wrote:
>I agree wholeheartedly with Gail.  But those with religious themes 
>seem to concentrate more on the story and are notorious for BAD 
>costuming.

A lot of them do, true. However as it happens there is another, very 
_good_ movie about Therese of Lisieux, made in 1986 and simply titled 
"Therese," which was just (re-?)released on video/DVD in February -- 
and IIRC the costumes are _very_ accurate. (It's available on 
Half.com, CDconnection and a couple of other places for what seem to 
be reasonable prices.)

Admittedly it's not a film you'd call "family viewing" -- no sex or 
violence, it's just that kids wouldn't understand a lot of it. For 
starters, it's originally in French, with subtitles, although the DVD 
advertises an English soundtrack. While the costumes are very 
realistic, the set is anything but -- a very stark, bare set with 
just a few pieces of furniture. Therese's brass bed as a young girl, 
for instance, is the usual elaborate confection with ruffled 
featherbed, set in the middle of a set that looks like bare gray 
concrete. There is also no direct narration of the story, so if you 
don't already know the basic storyline it can be quite difficult to 
follow.

However it's one of the few movies I've ever gone to the theater to 
see _twice_, and I found it haunting and very moving. The second time 
through I also noticed a lot of intriguing background detail -- 
details of the nuns' lives that are uncommonly accurate as far as I 
know, for instance the opening scene where they are passing out 
little Christmas "gifts" to each other (tiny nosegays of paper 
flowers and the like -- just little tokens) and taking turns rocking 
the Infant Jesus doll from the Nativity scene in their arms. In other 
scenes I also caught a few nuns making hand signals to each other in 
the background (as some monasteries do to preserve silence when only 
a simple message needs to be conveyed -- there's no "vow of silence" 
as such).

 From a costuming point of view, I was very impressed by the accuracy 
of the nuns' costumes, in particular the distinctive Carmelite 
arrangement of veils, which is hardly ever shown correctly. There are 
actually two complete veils, a white under-veil (which is the only 
one novices wear) and over it, a fine black veil (only worn by nuns 
who have taken final vows). The veil is actually cut as a circle, and 
is usually worn folded in half, with the folded edge to the front. On 
the uncommon occasions when someone _not_ part of the community is 
present (a male visitor, for instance), the top half of the folded 
circle is flipped forward to hang down over the face. (I don't know 
whether this is still the custom of Carmelites who wear the 
traditional habit, but I've never seen it.)

But I digress. <g>

"Therese" was directed by Alain Cavalier and starred Catherine 
Mouchet as St.Therese. The co-star (playing one of the nuns, I think) 
was Helene Alexandridis.
-- 
_________________________________________________________
O    Chris Laning
|     <claning@igc.org>
+    Davis, California
_________________________________________________________
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] A costumer's dream career?
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>
>> If you could run any business or work in any capacity related to 
>> historic
>> costume, what would be your dream job/career?

What I do now, except for lots, and lots of money.  ;)  I have this 
fantasy of winning the lottery and spending the rest of my life 
scouring the globe for extant 16th century clothing to study.  Oh, and 
cracking open the tombs of historical figures to do facial 
reconstruction to see what they actually looked like.  Sorta morbid, I 
know, but you asked... ;)

And maybe having my own PBS show on historical costume would be another 
dream... Like NOVA for costumers.

>> Where would you work, what is the absolute best thing you can think of
>> doing?

Sharing freely my knowledge and expertise with the world.  I sorta do 
that already, but I wish I could do it on such a larger scale where I 
could actually fund research, etc.  And while I'm dreaming, I'd love to 
set up a true historical costume program at a college here in 
California.  One that doesn't deal with theater or fashion, but is 
dedicated solely to the study and creation of historical clothing, 
museum conservation-type work, and more of that fabulous research!  I 
envision it being more of an anthropology-related program than a true 
"costume" program.

>> What do you find more exciting- theater, film, custom-work, 
>> re-enactments?

None of the above.  I find research and creation the two most 
fulfilling things about costuming.  I enjoy wearing the costumes, too, 
so obviously reenactment has a certain level of appeal, but I really, 
truly love the research and creation phases more than anything.

Sarah

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Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 22:23:14 -0700
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Found heavy linen twill
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Matka is a very loose basket weave cloth.  Looks very 'homespun' but 
has nice drape.


On Monday, April 28, 2003, at 06:04 PM, Sue Clemenger wrote:

> Ouch! It is pretty highly priced, even after a Canadian/US conversion.
> Looks like nice stuff though--I might have to get some, if my tax 
> refund
> every comes....;-D
> Scrolling down that same page, I see some silks, as well.  I'm not
> interested in the silk noile, but what is silk "matka?"
> --sue, who has *no doubt* that Drea is an evil temptress! <g>
>
> Drea Leed wrote:
>>
>> Guys,
>>
>> A friend tipped me off to a site selling really heavy duty pure linen
>> twill fabric.  The price is rather painful, but the prices are 
>> Canadian;
>> and the fabric, when I saw it, was the spitting image of the twill 
>> used
>> for the Effigy Corset of Queen Elizabeth.
>>
>> http://www.berlinembroidery.com/fabrics.htm#linentwill
>>
>> Thought some of youse 16th c. guys would be interested, too.
>>
>> Drea
>>
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] A costumer's dream career?
Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 01:46:56 -0400
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Alabaster,

What a fun question!!!!!!  It is always exciting and scary to change career
fields in mid-stream.  But taking the risk is the fun part.

Kim, when my kids were little was when I did the majority of my sewing and
hand work.  My boys and husband really enjoyed the process of seeing
something created.  Enjoy it while they are young... when they get older,
you are always running them somewhere.

As for the questions:

> If you could run any business or work in any capacity related to historic
> costume, what would be your dream job/career?

I kinda feel like I get to do my dream job everyday.  Although I never
really dreamed of the things I have accomplished over the past six years...
everyday brings something new and exciting.  Somethings I have to look at
the photos to remember, "I really did that!"  It is wonderful to have the
flexibility to work from my home and do so many different things.  It is
also wonderful to give others the opportunity to do the same thing, work
from home doing something they love.  It gives us the opportunity to work
around my kids schedules and still devote time to my business.

The dream job I have always wanted was to design for film.  But blowing a
disk in my neck my last semester in college was God's way of telling me,
maybe I should re-think my career choice.

Another dream job is to develop costume images digitally for film.  George
Lucas did this with his past two Star Wars films.  I tried to get into a
master's level program to do this but at the time on the East Coast this
program had not been developed.  I did a workshop with Lucas Arts on how
they do this, but choose not to interview with the company because I have a
phobia about earthquakes and California.  So we just use a few things I
learned in the workshop on restoring images for my website.  I would like to
move more into 3-D imaging of historic fashions.  One day, I will actually
take the courses in Flash and move in that direction.

I am also considering way down the road of having a TV series on
costuming... like on Style TV.  But that is a dream right now.  Cool
dream... showing costume collections from museums, lectures, interviews with
stage and film designers.  Lets see how my back holds up and maybe it will
happen!

> Where would you work, what is the absolute best thing you can think of
> doing?

I actually like working out of the Richmond metro area.  The access here for
the East Coast is great!  I can move up and down the seaboard in a matter of
hours.  This area really has a great love for art and history.  A lot of
films are shot here and there is a wonderful access to original items.  I
call it *touching history* instead of reading it from a book.  Makes a big
difference!!!

> What do you find more exciting- theatre, film, custom-work, re-enactments?

I really love film!!!!!!  My passion started as a child.  I was in heaven
when I have been on set and got to see the actual workings of the
film-making process.  My second choice would be re-enactment, since so much
of it goes on here.  I love going to good re-enactments.  I wouldn't like to
participate, but I love going to see it.

I love dressing people in costume and making them look great.  I also love
dressing mannequins for exhibit and photo shoots.  Primping a dress on
someone or a mannequin is one of my favorite things to do.

Good luck with your new career move!  Please keep us updated!

Penny Ladnier
Owner, The Costume Gallery & Costume Classroom
http://www.costumegallery.com
http://www.costumeclassroom.com
http://www.onlinecostumeball.com


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Subject: [h-cost] sort of OT: Parades
Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 16:24:56 +1000
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This is an urgent request to anyone who is online right at this moment.

I am studying costume at college and need to interview someone who has
experience in running a costume parade.  If you have and are able to reply
in the next few hours it would be greatly appreciated. (yes I've left this
till the last minute.. I'm a student :-)

If you can answer the following questions off list that would be a great
help.

Karen
-----
www.members.optusnet.com.au/smonster/

What were your responsibilities?
What did you have to do prior to the parade?
What did you have to do on the night/during the parade?
Were there any problems, how did you resolve them?
Any advise on running a parade?
What did you have to do after the parade - any follow ups?

Thanks again.

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-----Original Message-----
From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com]
On Behalf Of Penny Ladnier
Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2003 12:47 AM
To: Historical Costume
Subject: Re: [h-cost] A costumer's dream career?


Snippage--
 
I am also considering way down the road of having a TV series on
costuming... like on Style TV.  But that is a dream right now.  Cool
dream... showing costume collections from museums, lectures, interviews
with stage and film designers.  Let's see how my back holds up and maybe
it will happen!



I would like to see this too- 
consider that everybody has to eat and everybody needs something to
wear, then compare the number of cooking shows to sewing shows- 
okay; sewing takes longer, but the product also lasts longer than the
time it takes to get food to the table and eaten, or even the
leftovers....
and yes there are a lot of clothing companies, and there are a lot of
restaurants, but still... creativity needs feeding!

Rambling thoughts-- Betsy

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>
>
>Heh, in my case I don't think it would have made much difference as I'm very
>short-waisted and there's only a scant inch or two between the bottom of my
>ribs and the top of my hips.  So not a lot to compress.  -.-;;
>  
>
And I sayy heh to that too;) My ribs are *in* my waist. I have a very 
long round rib cage, I've had two singing teachers remark on it . It's 
quite sore actually if I sit on the floor and stretch over to my toes I 
have to lift up then I wind up almost hooking hte ribs over the hip bones;)

As for costuming it's really annoying as it means I *can't* lace the 
excess fat away;)

michaela
http://glittersweet.com




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Subject: [h-cost] Re: 17th century shoes 
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I am in the UK, but mail order overseas would be fine too
thanks
jennie

Which country do you live in?

Glenda

----- Original Message -----
From: "jennie russell" <jennierussell@hotmail.com>
To: <h-costume@net.indra.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2003 2:28 AM
Subject: [h-cost] 17th century shoes


>hi,
>i am looking for a good supplier of 17th century womens shoes, any one
know
>of anywhere?
>thanks
>jennie




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Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 12:22:33 +0100 (BST)
From: =?iso-8859-1?q?N=20Kipar?= <nicolas_fouquet@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: 17th century shoes 
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
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In that case I'd suggest Sarah Juniper in the UK:

http://www.sarahjuniper.co.uk/

Nicole

 --- jennie russell <jennierussell@hotmail.com> wrote: > I am in the UK, but
mail order overseas would be fine too
> thanks
> jennie
> 
> Which country do you live in?
> 
> Glenda
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "jennie russell" <jennierussell@hotmail.com>
> To: <h-costume@net.indra.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2003 2:28 AM
> Subject: [h-cost] 17th century shoes
> 
> 
> >hi,
> >i am looking for a good supplier of 17th century womens shoes, any one
> know
> >of anywhere?
> >thanks
> >jennie
> 
> 
> 
> 
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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Tue Apr 29 08:22:01 2003
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Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 14:22:40 +0200
From: Deredere Galbraith <triade@kabelfoon.nl>
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Hi,

I work at home and I really like that.
But I wish there was someone else like me in my neberhood who would like 
to work with me.
I like to make historical clothing for my self and my husband and 
sometimes for others.
But I realized that many people don't like to spend money on reanectment 
clothing.
And rather pay less for costumes of less quality. I don't like to make 
bad quality costumes.
And don't like to work 7 day's a week 24ours a day. Wich I think I 
schould do if I want to make money.
But luckely I don't have to.
This year I've been asked by two people to make weddingdresses for them 
for next year.
One normal(a little 16th century inspired but a lot of wedding gowns 
are) and one "Celtic".
I am really looking forward to make these gowns. People like to spend 
more one a weddinggown and appriciate it more.
So I hope I will get more questions for weddingcostumes. I would love to 
do historical looking gowns from many different century's.

What I also like to make are fantasy costumes because everything is 
allowed. Working with many different materials and using many different 
technieks.
I would love to make some fantasy costumes for a movie or serie.
I tried to recreate some from the Lord of the Rings movie and won even 
third price with an Uruk-hai costume.
http://www.deredere.dds.nl/LOTRCostumepics/LOTR.html

I have been asked to make theatre costumes but they expected me to work 
for free.

Greetings,
        Deredere




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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Tue Apr 29 08:36:53 2003
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Subject: [h-cost] Trim store needed...
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Hi
Since the late, lamented Joy trims closed, I need to get some more 
wonderful trims. Is there any similar store in New York city?? I'm 
looking for a tapestry trim that has a dog/hound coursing a deer, but 
need to find a new play, um trim place <G>.
TA
Carol
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Subject: re: [h-cost] Average waist size.
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"Linda J. Thompson" <LindaJThompson@comcast.net> wrote:

>Can anyone else remember when the style was to wear a belt with clothing? 
>I was raised in the US during the 50's and I can remember if I wore a 
>skirt or slacks or even shorts (Bermuda of course) they were always very 
>well tailored and you always wore a belt with them, this was up to the mid 
>1960"s.

It comes and goes with fashion... Most of my clothes from the mid-80's I 
wore with 3" or wider belts around/above my natural waist. If I wear slacks 
or jeans without a belt, I always feel like they're going to fall down on 
me. OTOH, that could be because my waist has always been a size or two 
smaller than what I need in bottoms to fit my hips, thighs, and butt. 
(Despite this, the medical-this-is-your-shape calculators all insist I'm an 
"apple" shape -- tells you something about the garment industry!)

>And I can remember wearing a girdle at the ripe age of 12 to give me that 
>sleek smooth look under some of the skirts and to hold my stockings up.

I think that thinking finally disappeared about the mid '70's, during the 
height of the "burn-your-bra-and-girdle" segment of the Women's Liberation 
movement.

>The end result was smaller waists than what is commonly seen today. At 14 
>I weighed 158 lbs., was 5'6" and my figure was 38-24-37. I don't recall 
>deliberately tightening my belt or anything, it just fit at that size.

Figures overall were smaller in the 1950's, as well.

I "inherited" a number of patterns from the 1950's and 1960's some years 
ago. I've pulled a couple of random patterns for comparison, plus went to 
Simplicity's site to grab the info for a current pattern.

Simplicity 3114, 15 cents. I think this one is from the late 1940's? A-line 
skirt (about knee-length), fitted scoop-necked, double-breasted vest, 
collared blouse with gathered sleeve cap (gathered into a narrow, buttoned 
wristband), peplum jacket with peaked lapel. Pattern-back address: 
Simplicity Pattern Co., Inc./200 Madison Ave./New York City. (Note: this is 
an _unprinted_ pattern.)

Simplicity 3265, 25 cents. Appears to be from the late 1950's (bouffant 
skirt, camisole bodice, cummerbund, and a flared bolero that only comes 
down to the point of the bust). Pattern-back address: Simplicity Pattern 
Co., Inc./200 Madison Avenue/New York, 16, N. Y.

Simplicity 6218, 1974, $1.25. Misses blouse and pinafore/jumper. 
Pattern-back address: Simplicity Pattern Co., Inc./200 Madison Avenue/New 
York, N. Y. 10016

Vogue 7420, 1989, $7.50. Misses and Women's coat, skirt, and pants.

Simplicity 5498, 2003. Misses sundress. Address is not on Webbed "pattern 
back".

The measurements for a Size 12 are as follows:

Pattern Bust    Waist   Hips
3114            30      26      33
3265            30      25      33
6218            34      26.5    36
7420            34      26.5    36
5498            34      26.5    36

This seems to imply that there was at least one shift in sizing during this 
time period. Since the older patterns have smaller measurements for a size 
than the newer ones, I'm going to look at the smaller sizes...

Size 10:

Pattern Bust    Waist   Hips
(lowest size on 3114 is a Size 12)
(lowest size on 3265 is a Size 12)
6218            32.5    25      34.5
7420            32.5    25      34.5
5498            32.5    25      34.5

We're about the same waist as the 1950's Simplicity, but the bust and hips 
are still larger.

Let's look at Size 8 on the newer patterns.

Pattern Bust    Waist   Hips
9825            31      24      33
6218            31.5    24      33.5
7420            31.5    24      33.5
5498            31.5    24      33.5

We're at the same hip size, but at a smaller waist size.

Now I'm going to check upwards. The two earliest patterns go up to a Size 
20; the 1974 Simplicity goes up to a 16, and the 2003 Simplicity goes up to 
an 18.

Size 14
Pattern Bust    Waist   Hips
3114            32      27      35
3265            32      26      35
6218            36      28      38
7420            36      28      38
5498            36      28      38

Size 16
Pattern Bust    Waist   Hips
3114            34      28      37
3265            34      28      37
6218            38      30      40
7420            38      30      40
5498            38      30      40

Size 18
Pattern Bust    Waist   Hips
3114            36      30      39
3265            36      30      39
6218            --      --      --
7420            40      32      42
5498            40      32      42

Size 20
Pattern Bust    Waist   Hips
3114            38      32      41
3265            38      32      41
6218            --      --      --
7420            42      34      44
5498            --      --      --

(BTW, this is a comparison I've wanted to do for a while, so don't think 
you've put me out or anything...)

While this is a fairly small sampling and I've tried to focus on a single 
pattern company, one might manipulate the numbers to find a possible trend.

Based on these numbers and abandoning numerical size for 
similar-measurements, it looks like in the 1940's and 1950's, waists on 
smaller figures were actually wider than they are today, busts may have 
been smaller (an Advance pattern, apparently from the 1950's, which I 
didn't add to this list, has bust measurements 2" larger than the 
Simplicity bust measurements from the same era), and hips on larger figures 
might have been a bit larger than they are today.

The difference may simply be that the styles of those periods emphasized 
the waist, and the waist-hip differential, more than the styles of today.


Brenda
webwarren@earthlink.net


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Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 09:19:31 -0400
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Carol Kocian <aquazoo@patriot.net>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Trim store needed...
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      I remember Joy Trim, too!  M&J Trimming is the place to go in 
New York.  Also be sure to check up & down the street and around the 
corner.  Many similar stores are located in the same area.  While M&J 
is the favorite, a nearby store might have something else that they 
don't.

      -Carol


>Hi
>Since the late, lamented Joy trims closed, I need to get some more 
>wonderful trims. Is there any similar store in New York city?? I'm 
>looking for a tapestry trim that has a dog/hound coursing a deer, 
>but need to find a new play, um trim place <G>.
>TA
>Carol
>_______________________________________________
>h-costume mailing list
>h-costume@mail.indra.com
>http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

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Subject: [h-cost] Re: A costumer's dream career?
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> If you could run any business or work in any capacity related to historic
> costume, what would be your dream job/career? Where would you work, what
is the absolute
> best thing you can think of doing? What do you find more exciting-
theatre, film, custom-work, re-
> enactments?

Great questions, Elizabeth!

I am new to this list and have been lurking to get the feel of the group. I
have very much enjoyed reading your posts! Someone on one of my Yahoo groups
(also an awesome bunch) recommended this list to me and I am very glad she
did.

Regarding the questions... I currently have an excellent job. I am a
consultant/computer programmer so I get to work from home, travel a little
and make good money. But I would give it up in an INSTANT to be a historic
costume consultant for film or tv. I know it is a pipe dream kind of job,
and I don't have any formal education in it (well other than an art history
degree which I don't use). I have been studying historic costume (mostly
women's court/noble costume) since I was seven. I hate to say it... but that
is 30 years ugh. It is my one true love (besides my beloved hubby, of
course). I focused on design, types of embellishment, colors etc.... not
construction techniques. In the last couple of years, I have concentrated
more on period construction, but my seamstress skills are not up to par with
my vision. Because of this, I don't bother kidding myself that I could ever
be a costumer of the caliber that I would like. I forget the gentleman's
name, but he is from Denmark and I found his site a few years ago and was
floored. I recently visited it again after his recent post and I am still
utterly amazed.

One of the reasons I joined the SCA was to have an excuse to make and wear
historic garb. Unfortunately, they don't allow me to explore some of my
other favorite time periods such as baroque, Georgian, regency, and
Edwardian among others.

Oh my goodness, look how I have rambled on...

Teena

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From: Sue Clemenger <mooncat@in-tch.com>
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Subject: [h-cost] Question about 19th c. pockets....
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In one of those delightfully odd cross-topic moments, an SCA-oriented
cooking list I'm on has a thread going about pockets, pocketbooks, and
purses, and how modern pockets differ from those known in pre-17th c.
Europe.
Someone mentioned reading _Jane Eyre_ as a child, and being puzzled by a
bit in the book where Jane puts her purse into her pocket, with the
implication that it was a larger item.  My brain immediately thought of
those pairs of pockets from the 18th c., but Jane's 19th c.....
Did women and girls still use those pairs of pockets in the 19th c? Or
am I completely off-base?
--sue, admittedly 19th c-ignorant
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: A costumer's dream career?
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Hum, mine would be to run a shop where you can find all the fabric, trims,
patterns, and other what nots you need to make costumes. Oh, and books, lots
of books.  And with a special doorbell for those middle of the night
emergencies. Guess I'd be an enabler?

Susan Courney


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Subject: [h-cost] Leine construction
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Reconstructinghistory.com has a good article on the Irish leine, but they 
haven't put the construction notes in yet.  Can anyone point me to a site or 
book that has construction information for a woman's leine?  Or can I just 
take Ye Olde Basic Smock and make the sleeves wider?

Leah
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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Tue Apr 29 11:26:53 2003
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Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 08:25:15 -0700 (PDT)
From: Mara Riley <corbiegirl@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: quilted fabric
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
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Maybe one reason people think one can't quilt on a regular sewing
machine is that it helps to have something called a "walking foot" --
a foot that feeds the top layer along at the same speed as the bottom
layer, to keep the layers from getting "all wonky", as someone here
has already said.

The walking foot attachment for my Kenmore wasn't that expensive. 
Lots of pinning will probably also help...

-- Mara

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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Found heavy linen twill
Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 11:43:08 -0400
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I believe matka is similar in appearance to silk noil.

Isn't matka the kind that hasn't had the natural silk "substances" washed
out?

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Heather Meadows" <alice@wonderland.com>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2003 1:23 AM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Found heavy linen twill


> Matka is a very loose basket weave cloth.  Looks very 'homespun' but
> has nice drape.
>
>
> On Monday, April 28, 2003, at 06:04 PM, Sue Clemenger wrote:
>
> > Ouch! It is pretty highly priced, even after a Canadian/US conversion.
> > Looks like nice stuff though--I might have to get some, if my tax
> > refund
> > every comes....;-D
> > Scrolling down that same page, I see some silks, as well.  I'm not
> > interested in the silk noile, but what is silk "matka?"
> > --sue, who has *no doubt* that Drea is an evil temptress! <g>
> >
> > Drea Leed wrote:
> >>
> >> Guys,
> >>
> >> A friend tipped me off to a site selling really heavy duty pure linen
> >> twill fabric.  The price is rather painful, but the prices are
> >> Canadian;
> >> and the fabric, when I saw it, was the spitting image of the twill
> >> used
> >> for the Effigy Corset of Queen Elizabeth.
> >>
> >> http://www.berlinembroidery.com/fabrics.htm#linentwill
> >>
> >> Thought some of youse 16th c. guys would be interested, too.
> >>
> >> Drea
> >>
> > _______________________________________________
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> > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
> >
>
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: A costumer's dream career?
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It's not my dream career but I think it could be fun......

A friend once told me that I should design wedding dresses.  They could be
historical-based or just have elements of historical costume in them. 
They could be made of natural fibers (not this acetate crap) and be
tasteful (no polyester lace from hell). Offering  the underpinnings would
be a good addition.

I personally plan to make a Victorian bustle dress c. 1870 when I get
married.  There may be other people who would want this, too.

The only reason I didn't consider this career more seriously was because
people can be so picky.  But they are willing to spend way more money on a
wedding dress than just on a period costume (go figure!) so from a
financial standpoint, it should be lucrative.

Good luck with whatever you do!

Diana


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From: Jacobson Dawn <dme_maud@pacbell.net>
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Absolute dream (and since it's a dream, it doesn't
have to be based in reality, right?): Working in the
costume shop of a major Hollywood studio during the
1930s, preferably as an assistant designer (even I
don't have enough ego to put myself on a par with
designers like Adrian <grin>). Steady paycheck,
creative people to work with, no real pinching
pennies, and access to the kinds of craftspeople you
need to turn out really marvelous stuff.

Reality-based dream: Pretty much what I'm doing now
(some historical costuming, some theatrical costuming,
some research, etc.), but just a bit more time in
which to do it.

Dawn
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In a message dated 4/28/2003 9:55:21 PM Pacific Standard Time, 
kimiko@kimiko1.com writes:


> If you could run any business or work in any capacity related to historic 
> costume, what would be your dream job/career?

I suppose that mine doesn't exactly fall under this category...  But this is 
what I want to do when I grow up.

I want to be a portrait photographer.  Specializing in recreating old photos 
and paintings with modern people.  I envision this including overseeing the 
costuming, hair, make-up and backdrops.  Then creating the right final 
touches using a series of techniques in both the darkroom and with my 
computer.  (And no, I am not talking about anything even remotely close to 
those places you see in Amusement parks.)

Kit

If you walk a mile in someone else's shoes, do you get to keep them? - 
Kenneth Cole
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Trim store needed...
Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 12:39:02 -0400
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There are some online sources for trim as well (TLBarnes and Calontir trim
come to mind)- I think you mean the trim that comes in white or black
backgrounds?


Lyn Greaves
Lady Rosamund d'Alwareton
COM, COTerpsichore, COSalamander



----- Original Message -----
From: "fastusminimus" <cahuff@mindspring.com>
To: <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2003 8:34 AM
Subject: [h-cost] Trim store needed...


> Hi
> Since the late, lamented Joy trims closed, I need to get some more
> wonderful trims. Is there any similar store in New York city?? I'm
> looking for a tapestry trim that has a dog/hound coursing a deer, but
> need to find a new play, um trim place <G>.
> TA
> Carol
> _______________________________________________
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>


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In a message dated 4/29/2003 12:24:02 AM Central Standard Time, 
sarah@elizabethanlady.com writes:

> >>If you could run any business or work in any capacity related to 
> >>historic
> >>costume, what would be your dream job/career?
> 
> What I do now, except for lots, and lots of money.  ;)  I have this 
> fantasy of winning the lottery and spending the rest of my life 
> scouring the globe for extant 16th century clothing to study.  Oh, and 
> cracking open the tombs of historical figures to do facial 
> reconstruction to see what they actually looked like.  Sorta morbid, I 
> know, but you asked... ;)
> 

Oh man, that's neat. I've been thinking about how cool it would be to start 
popping open the graves of people whose clothing I'd like to get a look at. 
Heck, some of the stuff has to be a little intact, right? And the facial 
reconstruction thing is beyond cool. I know, "Desecration" and all. You know 
what, if 500 years from now, some textile archeologist wants to dig me up and 
play with my seams, great! 

Sarra Wryght
http://www.livejournal.com/users/loreleisedai/
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Trim store needed...
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        If you don't mind ordering from the web try www.cheeptrims.com. 
They have such a huge selection of trims and laces that I spend hours
just drooling over them.  And their prices are reasonable too.

Lalah
Never give up, Never surrender
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Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 12:25:36 -0500 (CDT)
From: Robin Netherton <robin@shell.nightowl.net>
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Found heavy linen twill
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On Tue, 29 Apr 2003, Audrey Bergeron-Morin wrote:

> I believe matka is similar in appearance to silk noil.

The matka we have at the store where I work has extremely large threads,
rather flattened out in the weave, maybe 2-3mm wide. The tabby/basketweave
texture is prominent. Very unlike silk noil, except that both are made
from spun (rather than reeled) silk and so are nubbly and fuzzy. I might
use it for a modern blazer or something artsy, but not anything historical
that I can think of.

> Isn't matka the kind that hasn't had the natural silk "substances"
> washed out?

I believe that would apply to a number of "raw" silks, including tussah.
(Can someone correct me if I'm wrong?) But I have handled extremely fine
reeled silk that left my hands sticky afterward, which I presume meant it
was still full of seracin.

--Robin

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From: "Beteena Paradise" <bkessinger@ureach.com>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
References: <20030429.124656.-469363.3.catpurson@juno.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Trim store needed...
Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 13:13:36 -0400
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I have bought quite a bit from cheeptrims and for the most part their stuff
is great. I have had trouble with a couple of things that all came from the
same mill so I avoid those trims. You can tell the mill by the first 3
numbers of the item number. The mill I had a problem with was 095. Their
prices are really good though! I have found a couple that were identical to
that found at Calontir and MJTrim for a LOT less.

----- Original Message -----
From: <catpurson@juno.com>
To: <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2003 12:46 PM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Trim store needed...


>         If you don't mind ordering from the web try www.cheeptrims.com.
> They have such a huge selection of trims and laces that I spend hours
> just drooling over them.  And their prices are reasonable too.
>
> Lalah
> Never give up, Never surrender
> _______________________________________________
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Found heavy linen twill
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What people usually call raw silk is silk noil, and that has the seracin
removed. As for the other "raw-not-noil" silks, I think we need an expert on
the subject here :-)


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Robin Netherton" <robin@shell.nightowl.net>
>
> > Isn't matka the kind that hasn't had the natural silk "substances"
> > washed out?
>
> I believe that would apply to a number of "raw" silks, including tussah.
> (Can someone correct me if I'm wrong?) But I have handled extremely fine
> reeled silk that left my hands sticky afterward, which I presume meant it
> was still full of seracin.
>
> --Robin
>
> _______________________________________________
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From: "Kate M Bunting" <K.M.Bunting@derby.ac.uk>
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Question about 19th c. pockets....
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Sue wrote:

Kate Bunting
Library, University of Derby

>>> Someone mentioned reading _Jane Eyre_ as a child, and being puzzled >by a bit in the book where Jane puts her purse into her pocket, with the
>implication that it was a larger item. 

Do you mean the purse was large?  Is this a confusion caused by the American use of "purse" for a handbag? I imagine Jane Eyre's purse as being a little knitted bag for holding coins.

> My brain immediately thought of those pairs of pockets from the 18th c., >but Jane's 19th c.....Did women and girls still use those pairs of pockets in >the 19th c? Or am I completely off-base?

I'm no 19th century expert, but I thought big pockets went out with the slimline Regency dresses, to be replaced by the "reticule" or handbag. I suppose when full skirts came back into fashion, a discreet pocket for money and a handkerchief was once more possible?







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Subject: [h-cost] corded corset
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I want to experiment with a corded Eliz. corset. Would I need to make
channels and "bone" around the whole body, or do I only need to put in some
places, like most boned corsets?


**********************
Rebecca Schmitt
aka Agnes Cabot, wife of Master Peter Cabot
BRF FOF; Guilde of St. Lawrence

A room without books is like a body without a soul
---Cicero

lotsofteapots@charter.net
**********************


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Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 11:06:48 -0700
From: Kimiko Small <kimiko@kimiko1.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Leine construction
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At 11:09 AM 4/29/2003 -0400, you wrote:
>Reconstructinghistory.com has a good article on the Irish leine, but they
>haven't put the construction notes in yet.  Can anyone point me to a site or
>book that has construction information for a woman's leine?  Or can I just
>take Ye Olde Basic Smock and make the sleeves wider?
>
>Leah


Hi Leah

The leine is really easy to do. However, ask yourself first if you want the 
huge sleeves with drawstring that is not period but very common at faires, 
or if you want to just make large sleeves. Otherwise, construction is very 
simple.

The actual width of the leine in the original woodcuts and images is the 
length from your shoulder to your wrist. However, modern re-enactors at 
faire like the drawstring thing (which is not period) to draw the sleeves 
out of the way especially on hot summer days. If you decide for the 
drawstring, then use the full width of 45" wide material for the sleeves.

Otherwise the sleeves are pretty much long rectangles (from shoulder to 
floor in length) with curves at the bottom sides, and sewn together (raw 
edges) across at the top. If you are doing drawstrings, then put tape or 
trim along the top, and sew in two channels for the drawstrings. The 
sleeves are attached onto the body pretty much like chemise sleeves. The 
tricky part is how they attach at the armhole. You can either add in 
gussets for the armpit, or just make the opening wider. Either works.

The body is the length from the shoulder to the floor and uses the full 
width of material at the most (you can use less) for both front and back, 
and then belted up high to have extra material at the waist. Make a neck 
opening by cutting a small curve and a slit. You can bind the neck with 
trim or bias tape. Some people will use a yoke at the neck area, but that 
is optional. Some people prefer to shorten the garment. Your call really 
especially if you plan to wear it under a skirt. Men's should be floor 
length and belted up.

These are the basics for a re-enactors version, not historically accurate. 
Someday I will post clearer directions on my website with drawings, but 
that will be a month or two. I also recreated a more accurate way of 
creating the garments seen on Irish chiefs and bards in some woodcuts, but 
that is a bit more detailed and does take 20+ yards of normal loom width 
linen just for the leine alone (not the ionar/doublet/jacket).

hth, and if I wasn't clear on something just ask and I can clarify.

Kimiko



Kimiko Small
Costumer, Fiber Artist, Web Designer, Wife and Mother
kimiko@kimiko1.com; http://www.kimiko1.com

Graphic Intern at Costume Gallery
http://www.costumegallery.com

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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Tue Apr 29 14:24:58 2003
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From: "Lloyd Mitchell" <rmitchell@washjeff.edu>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
References: <3EAE8536.651F2118@in-tch.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Question about 19th c. pockets....
Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 14:26:42 -0400
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A couple of my dresses of the period (mid century)have slits where you might
be looking for a pocket; I also have a petticoat with big patch type pockets
of the same time period. These appear to be original to the petticoat by
color and fabric.  If memory serves me well, doesn't "A tisket, a tasket, a
green and yellow basket..." come from the first quarter of the Nineteenth
Century?  As a child I always wondered how you could loose a pocket ! I also
have a single utilitarian pocket of the Eighteenth century style, that given
the other items it came with, I had always assumed that it was from about
1830. There is also another petticoat that has a tidy pocket spaced about
15" above the hem.(For ready use when traveling?...or maybe a pickpocket?)
I love discovering items that have variances to the norm.
Kathleen
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Sue Clemenger" <mooncat@in-tch.com>
To: <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2003 9:59 AM
Subject: [h-cost] Question about 19th c. pockets....


> In one of those delightfully odd cross-topic moments, an SCA-oriented
> cooking list I'm on has a thread going about pockets, pocketbooks, and
> purses, and how modern pockets differ from those known in pre-17th c.
> Europe.
> Someone mentioned reading _Jane Eyre_ as a child, and being puzzled by a
> bit in the book where Jane puts her purse into her pocket, with the
> implication that it was a larger item.  My brain immediately thought of
> those pairs of pockets from the 18th c., but Jane's 19th c.....
> Did women and girls still use those pairs of pockets in the 19th c? Or
> am I completely off-base?
> --sue, admittedly 19th c-ignorant
> _______________________________________________
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Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 10:48:29 -0700
From: Kimiko Small <kimiko@kimiko1.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] A costumer's dream career?
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At 12:26 PM 4/29/2003 -0400, you wrote:
>I want to be a portrait photographer.  Specializing in recreating old photos
>and paintings with modern people.  I envision this including overseeing the
>costuming, hair, make-up and backdrops.  Then creating the right final
>touches using a series of techniques in both the darkroom and with my
>computer.  (And no, I am not talking about anything even remotely close to
>those places you see in Amusement parks.)
>
>Kit


Kit

There was an old issue of Renaissance magazine, #16 (still available on 
backorder) that showed the exact portraits you were talking about done by 
Lorenzo Poccianti. Beautiful images and I thought they were very nicely 
done with regards to costume and layout. It inspired me to try that myself, 
but while I am decent at Photoshop I am not that good in the darkroom. I 
wish I could find my copy, but it is still packed away somewhere.

If he can do so, you could do so.

Kimiko



Kimiko Small
Costumer, Fiber Artist, Web Designer, Wife and Mother
kimiko@kimiko1.com; http://www.kimiko1.com

Graphic Intern at Costume Gallery
http://www.costumegallery.com

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Subject: Re: [h-cost] A costumer's dream career?
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At 02:22 PM 4/29/2003 +0200, you wrote:
>I have been asked to make theatre costumes but they expected me to work 
>for free.


Why do people expect us to give of our talents and abilities for free? That 
is one thing I have seen over and over in the ren faire groups I work with, 
that the ladies are to dress everyone in their guild for free. Don't they 
realize that our abilities take time to master and that our time is as 
valuable as theirs?

Do programmers (which my hubby is one) work for free? Do consultants work 
for free? Do sports people work for free? Why then are seamstresses/tailors 
expected to work for free, or even cheap?

Sorry, its a frustration of mine in trying to create a business. I didn't 
work for free as an accountant, yet people expect me to work for free as a 
costumer.

And Deredere (I love your name btw), I really love the costumes you 
created. I have seen your pics before and just drool at your creativity.

Kimiko



Kimiko Small
Costumer, Fiber Artist, Web Designer, Wife and Mother
kimiko@kimiko1.com; http://www.kimiko1.com

Graphic Intern at Costume Gallery
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: A costumer's dream career?
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At 09:44 AM 4/29/2003 -0400, you wrote:
>In the last couple of years, I have concentrated
>more on period construction, but my seamstress skills are not up to par with
>my vision. Because of this, I don't bother kidding myself that I could ever
>be a costumer of the caliber that I would like.

Hi Teena,

I realized that I am not the high caliber costumer I want to be. But after 
dealing with some of the guest lecturers at our local fiber arts guild I am 
with, and hearing their stories, what they told us it takes to become a 
high caliber artist is to practice and practice and practice. A few of the 
quilt artists showed their earlier works, and boy were they ... bad and 
boring! But after many years of DOING and practicing and learning new 
techniques, they have become high quality master artists that can command 
great prices for their works.

I am going to join those types of people. You can to.

As Lalah loves to add... Never give up, Never surrender. I love that 
tagline.  :-)

Kimiko



Kimiko Small
Costumer, Fiber Artist, Web Designer, Wife and Mother
kimiko@kimiko1.com; http://www.kimiko1.com

Graphic Intern at Costume Gallery
http://www.costumegallery.com

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> I want to experiment with a corded Eliz. corset. Would I need to make
> channels and "bone" around the whole body, or do I only need to put in some
> places, like most boned corsets?

There are some awesome links off Drea's site (::waving HI to Drea::) for 
these kinds, including a dress diary for someone who made a corded 
'effigy' corset.

I was totally inspired by this, as well as Drea's 'Well-Dressed Peasant" 
panel, and a corded corset and Flemish gown are definitely on my list of 
projects for this year.

I see you're local to Bristol - contact me off-list and maybe we can 
work together on them. I'm in Chicago.

And hello to all the big red H's from CostumeCon - you finally sucked me in.

Wendy Z
Wench Wear Costumes
Minstrosity

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From: "Stephen Bergdahl" <madlystitching@earthlink.net>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] A costumer's dream career?
Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 11:55:24 -0700
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I hear you Kimiko.

For years I "helped out" with a number of Theater groups and other living
history groups until I hit sewing burn out.  So I told everyone that from
now on in I would work for only two reasons, Money or Satisfaction.  If I am
not getting one or the other I am not doing it.  Both is nice, but one or
the other.  Since then I have been told by a number of "friends" how selfish
I am.  Tells you what sort of friends they are.  But now I have time to sew
for my wife and son.  That is pure satisfaction.

Stephen

----- Original Message -----
From: "Kimiko Small" <kimiko@kimiko1.com>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2003 11:13 AM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] A costumer's dream career?


> At 02:22 PM 4/29/2003 +0200, you wrote:
> >I have been asked to make theatre costumes but they expected me to work
> >for free.
>
>
> Why do people expect us to give of our talents and abilities for free?
That
> is one thing I have seen over and over in the ren faire groups I work
with,
> that the ladies are to dress everyone in their guild for free. Don't they
> realize that our abilities take time to master and that our time is as
> valuable as theirs?
>
> Do programmers (which my hubby is one) work for free? Do consultants work
> for free? Do sports people work for free? Why then are
seamstresses/tailors
> expected to work for free, or even cheap?
>
> Sorry, its a frustration of mine in trying to create a business. I didn't
> work for free as an accountant, yet people expect me to work for free as a
> costumer.
>
> And Deredere (I love your name btw), I really love the costumes you
> created. I have seen your pics before and just drool at your creativity.
>
> Kimiko
>
>
>
> Kimiko Small
> Costumer, Fiber Artist, Web Designer, Wife and Mother
> kimiko@kimiko1.com; http://www.kimiko1.com
>
> Graphic Intern at Costume Gallery
> http://www.costumegallery.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Tue Apr 29 15:06:59 2003
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From: Lee Thompson-Herbert <lee@retro.com>
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] A costumer's dream career?
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Kimiko Small <kimiko@kimiko1.com> wrote:
> 
> Why do people expect us to give of our talents and abilities for free? That 
> is one thing I have seen over and over in the ren faire groups I work with, 
> that the ladies are to dress everyone in their guild for free. Don't they 
> realize that our abilities take time to master and that our time is as 
> valuable as theirs?
> 
> Do programmers (which my hubby is one) work for free? Do consultants work 
> for free? Do sports people work for free? Why then are seamstresses/tailors 
> expected to work for free, or even cheap?

Ren faires run on free labor.  They usually expect musicians to play for
free as well, even though we have to provide our own costumes and deal with
wear and tear on the instruments.  Wooden instruments are expensive and do
not deal with outdoor conditions well.  Nevermind all the years of practice
it takes to become competent.  Which is why you usually get a lot of so-so
musicians and one or two really good ones.  The good ones are being paid.
I made a decision not to "pay to play" about 10 years ago.  The only exception
has been Dickens Fair, and that was mostly because we came up with a show 
idea we wanted to crash test before taking it out on the road.  

I don't get paid to play for morris, but they *do* buy me beer.  And when
we do paying gigs, there's a portion of money set aside for the musicians.
The previous team I played for did neither of those things, so I decided to
go elsewhere.  After all, I can make money busking on the street corner, so
I'd better have some incentive if they want me to play for free.

There's an attitude among certain ren fair folk that it's mercenary to 
expect to get paid.  "But we're not getting paid either!"  Right, but I
can make more money on the street corner by myself than you guys apparently
can negotiate for, so... I personally think it's shameful that the highly
skilled personel are the ones least likely to get paid, and *asking* to be
paid for your work is treated like crass behavior.

Lee M.Thompson-Herbert        lee@retro.com	      KoX 1995, SP4
Head Muso, White Rats Morris, Faultline Morris
Member, Knights of Xenu (1995).  Chaos Monger and Jill of All Trades.
"A head-on collision between Morticia Adams and Martha Stewart"

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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Tue Apr 29 15:08:50 2003
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] A costumer's dream career?
Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 15:10:35 -0400
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Hear!hear! Stephen. Way to go.
Kathleen
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Stephen Bergdahl" <madlystitching@earthlink.net>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2003 2:55 PM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] A costumer's dream career?


> I hear you Kimiko.
>
> For years I "helped out" with a number of Theater groups and other living
> history groups until I hit sewing burn out.  So I told everyone that from
> now on in I would work for only two reasons, Money or Satisfaction.  If I
am
> not getting one or the other I am not doing it.  Both is nice, but one or
> the other.  Since then I have been told by a number of "friends" how
selfish
> I am.  Tells you what sort of friends they are.  But now I have time to
sew
> for my wife and son.  That is pure satisfaction.
>
> Stephen
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Kimiko Small" <kimiko@kimiko1.com>
> To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2003 11:13 AM
> Subject: Re: [h-cost] A costumer's dream career?
>
>
> > At 02:22 PM 4/29/2003 +0200, you wrote:
> > >I have been asked to make theatre costumes but they expected me to work
> > >for free.
> >
> >
> > Why do people expect us to give of our talents and abilities for free?
> That
> > is one thing I have seen over and over in the ren faire groups I work
> with,
> > that the ladies are to dress everyone in their guild for free. Don't
they
> > realize that our abilities take time to master and that our time is as
> > valuable as theirs?
> >
> > Do programmers (which my hubby is one) work for free? Do consultants
work
> > for free? Do sports people work for free? Why then are
> seamstresses/tailors
> > expected to work for free, or even cheap?
> >
> > Sorry, its a frustration of mine in trying to create a business. I
didn't
> > work for free as an accountant, yet people expect me to work for free as
a
> > costumer.
> >
> > And Deredere (I love your name btw), I really love the costumes you
> > created. I have seen your pics before and just drool at your creativity.
> >
> > Kimiko
> >
> >
> >
> > Kimiko Small
> > Costumer, Fiber Artist, Web Designer, Wife and Mother
> > kimiko@kimiko1.com; http://www.kimiko1.com
> >
> > Graphic Intern at Costume Gallery
> > http://www.costumegallery.com
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > h-costume mailing list
> > h-costume@mail.indra.com
> > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
>
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
>

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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Tue Apr 29 15:26:24 2003
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] A costumer's dream career?
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Kimiko, around here, the doctors, nurses and school teachers are going on
strike, and boy! does it make the jqpublic Mad! They are supposed to give
their all, too, and never complain about the pay or mal-practice prices they
must pay up front to work.
I think it is time for costumers to get their just desserts, also!  I've
been there and done that in a 60 hr week for far too long. Be-speak work
deserves more than a bouquet of flowers or a theater ticket. Freebee is as
Freebee Does. I have had more fun these last few months by choosing my
projects. Since I have been 'playing hard to get" it is amazing how gracious
my would be customers have become re their expectations and recompense to my
expectations.
I am beginning to think that Costuming might become fun again.
Kathleen
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Kimiko Small" <kimiko@kimiko1.com>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2003 2:13 PM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] A costumer's dream career?


> At 02:22 PM 4/29/2003 +0200, you wrote:
> >I have been asked to make theatre costumes but they expected me to work
> >for free.
>
>
> Why do people expect us to give of our talents and abilities for free?
That
> is one thing I have seen over and over in the ren faire groups I work
with,
> that the ladies are to dress everyone in their guild for free. Don't they
> realize that our abilities take time to master and that our time is as
> valuable as theirs?
>
> Do programmers (which my hubby is one) work for free? Do consultants work
> for free? Do sports people work for free? Why then are
seamstresses/tailors
> expected to work for free, or even cheap?
>
> Sorry, its a frustration of mine in trying to create a business. I didn't
> work for free as an accountant, yet people expect me to work for free as a
> costumer.
>
> And Deredere (I love your name btw), I really love the costumes you
> created. I have seen your pics before and just drool at your creativity.
>
> Kimiko
>
>
>
> Kimiko Small
> Costumer, Fiber Artist, Web Designer, Wife and Mother
> kimiko@kimiko1.com; http://www.kimiko1.com
>
> Graphic Intern at Costume Gallery
> http://www.costumegallery.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
>

_______________________________________________
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From: "Kate M Bunting" <K.M.Bunting@derby.ac.uk>
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Fran wrote:
>I think the Victorians were well aware of the dangers.  Enough so that, I 
>can think of several Victorian novels where the woman, or her husband, 
>expresses relief after the birth that the woman has been spared 
>death.  This without any unusual complications/problems having been 
>mentioned. 

Of course a lot of this was down to a lack of understanding of the mechanism of infection. Septicaemia must have seemed a totally unpredictable hazard.



Kate Bunting
Library, University of Derby


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Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 12:19:57 -0700
From: Kimiko Small <kimiko@kimiko1.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] A costumer's dream career?
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I understand you Stephen.

Money or Satisfaction... I like that. And friends who think it is selfish, 
would they feel the same if the tables were turned? I doubt it. They are 
just upset the free ride is over. And sewing for your family really IS 
satisfaction. I feel the same way. Even if my little one is too young to 
appreciate the outfits I make for him. At least my hubby appreciates my work.

Kimiko



Kimiko Small
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From: Kimiko Small <kimiko@kimiko1.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] A costumer's dream career?
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At 03:28 PM 4/29/2003 -0400, you wrote:
>I am beginning to think that Costuming might become fun again.
>Kathleen


Thank you for giving me hope.  :-)

Kimiko



Kimiko Small
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From: Kimiko Small <kimiko@kimiko1.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] A costumer's dream career?
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I hear you Lee on this too.

My husband is a drummer by passion, and the money he puts into his drum 
collection is astounding. We also used to do Scottish country dancing, and 
we got paid a little for this, usually outside of faires. When we got paid, 
we paid the musicians half of whatever we got, because you can't dance 
without the musicians. It is sad to see so many musicians gone from the 
faire circuit because of lack of funds. I also know of some guilds who left 
faires to join the Scottish games, because they got paid good money at 
Scottish games. I don't blame you going where the money is, because after 
awhile kudos just doesn't pay for the headaches.

And that is one of the reasons I quit faire, among others. And why I quit 
sewing for so many years. I was tired of doing things for the expectation 
that it would be free. If it wasn't that my passion for costumes and sewing 
was fired up again recently, I don't think I would have gone back to faire. 
At least creating and wearing my garb (and my family's) at faire and 
creating garb for paying clients will help me hone my craft. But people 
need to realize that you get what you pay (or don't pay) for.

I may turn to creating dresses for weddings on a regular basis, but I know 
from an experienced wedding seamstress that there are headaches in that 
field too... and according to her, some of those headaches just aren't 
worth the money. She now sews for herself and that's all.

Sorry for bringing in the bad side of things... but to evaluate costuming 
as a business it has helped me to know there are bad sides, what they are 
specifically, and figure out if it is worth it to me to do this.

Kimiko


Kimiko Small
Costumer, Fiber Artist, Web Designer, Wife and Mother
kimiko@kimiko1.com; http://www.kimiko1.com

Graphic Intern at Costume Gallery
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Kimiko, Stephen and Lee; you took the words right out of my mouth!  

I finally found the money vs satisfaction balance a few years ago.  I
also found teaching others to sew, instead of just sewing for them, very
satisfactory.  That is probably what kept me going as long as I did, his
will be my 25th year participating in our local faire (for most of those
years it was a not-for-profit faire so at least all of us working for
nothing felt there was some benefit going somewhere).

I am not sure what exactly I would choose in costuming for a dream
career but I know I would like satisfaction from it first, and then
enough money to at least pay the bills, and have an occasional trip over
the pond to do research :).

Catherine
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Subject: [h-cost] Re:Leine
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Debbie Minyard




>
>Message: 2
>Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 11:06:48 -0700
>From: Kimiko Small <kimiko@kimiko1.com>
>Subject: Re: [h-cost] Leine construction
>To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
>Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20030429104842.02c8d368@127.0.0.1>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed
>
>At 11:09 AM 4/29/2003 -0400, you wrote:
> >Reconstructinghistory.com has a good article on the Irish leine, but they
> >haven't put the construction notes in yet.  Can anyone point me to a site 
>or
> >book that has construction information for a woman's leine?  Or can I 
>just
> >take Ye Olde Basic Smock and make the sleeves wider?
> >
> >Leah
>
>
There is an article in an old Tornaments Illuminated (an SCA magazine) on 
constructing Leines I believe it does not use the drawstring.  You can try 
the TI link off the www.sca.org site  I think it was spring 2000.  Maybe you 
can get a copy
Maddalena

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In a message dated 4/29/2003 11:12:52 AM Pacific Standard Time, 
kimiko@kimiko1.com writes:


> Kit
> 
> There was an old issue of Renaissance magazine, #16 (still available on 
> backorder) that showed the exact portraits you were talking about done by 
> Lorenzo Poccianti. Beautiful images and I thought they were very nicely 
> done with regards to costume and layout. It inspired me to try that myself, 
> 
> but while I am decent at Photoshop I am not that good in the darkroom. I 
> wish I could find my copy, but it is still packed away somewhere.
> 
> If he can do so, you could do so.
> 
> Kimiko

Kimiko,

I actually have the magazine.  It was really interesting, (although at that 
point in time, kind of disappointing, because I thought I was the only person 
in the world who had thought of that.)  I found Lorenzo Poccianti was not 
actually interested in all the costuming and such, I believe that is why 
portraits aren't quiet right.  Anyway, I figure if it was only between him 
and me in the world (which it isn't) I would still do better than him, since 
he charges an outrageous amount of money.  Ugh!  :)  Anyway, it was just a 
dream now back to looking for a job to be someone's lacky.

Kit

If you walk a mile in someone else's shoes, do you get to keep them? - 
Kenneth Cole
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] A costumer's dream career?
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> Oh man, that's neat. I've been thinking about how cool it would be to 
> start
> popping open the graves of people whose clothing I'd like to get a 
> look at.
> Heck, some of the stuff has to be a little intact, right? And the 
> facial
> reconstruction thing is beyond cool. I know, "Desecration" and all. 
> You know
> what, if 500 years from now, some textile archeologist wants to dig me 
> up and
> play with my seams, great!

Heya Sarra!

I feel the same way.  I want to donate my grave to archeologists 500 
years from now so they can have fun studying me and my clothes from the 
early part of the 21st century.  It's not desecration if you've got 
permission, right?  ;)

Sarah

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From: "Penny Ladnier" <penny@costumegallery.com>
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] A costumer's dream career?
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Thanks Betsy for the encouragement.  I have been thinking about this for a
year.

Penny Ladnier
Owner, The Costume Gallery & Costume Classroom
http://www.costumegallery.com
http://www.costumeclassroom.com
http://www.onlinecostumeball.com


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Kit wrote:

<<I suppose that mine doesn't exactly fall under this
category...  But 
this is 
what I want to do when I grow up.

I want to be a portrait photographer.  Specializing in
recreating old 
photos 
and paintings with modern people.  I envision this
including overseeing 
the 
costuming, hair, make-up and backdrops.  Then creating
the right final 
touches using a series of techniques in both the
darkroom and with my 
computer.  (And no, I am not talking about anything
even remotely close 
to 
those places you see in Amusement parks.)>>

Kit--

Talk to Stephen ("Jakob"), as he does this for a
"living" (along with some more commercial portrait
photography).

Dawn
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] A costumer's dream career?
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No, Sarah... here is what you should do... Donate your grave to
archeologists 500 years from now... .but be buried in historic garb! Now
wouldn't that throw a wrench in the works? Or perhaps a wench, depending on
the outfit. ;-)

Teena

----- Original Message -----
From: "Sarah" <sarah@elizabethanlady.com>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2003 4:20 PM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] A costumer's dream career?


> > Oh man, that's neat. I've been thinking about how cool it would be to
> > start
> > popping open the graves of people whose clothing I'd like to get a
> > look at.
> > Heck, some of the stuff has to be a little intact, right? And the
> > facial
> > reconstruction thing is beyond cool. I know, "Desecration" and all.
> > You know
> > what, if 500 years from now, some textile archeologist wants to dig me
> > up and
> > play with my seams, great!
>
> Heya Sarra!
>
> I feel the same way.  I want to donate my grave to archeologists 500
> years from now so they can have fun studying me and my clothes from the
> early part of the 21st century.  It's not desecration if you've got
> permission, right?  ;)
>
> Sarah
>
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
>
>

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<Rant Mode ON>
I'm a musician on the faire circuit, and I don't play for free.  You get 
what you pay for, and if you're not willing to pay, you won't get 
quality work.  (I've seen some acts that play for free, and I think they 
overcharge).

It's amazing to me that people still ask us "You get paid for this?". 
Like the fact that we practice all year round, once a week together and 
more often on our own, have years of training,  have to provide our own 
costumes and instruments, etc. doesn't count.  We did play some for free 
when we were staring out, or if it's a charity event we want to 
contribute to, but not any more.  "Mone or Satisfaction" is about it - 
though sometimes "Publicity" is good enough.  Only Sometimes.

Same thing for sewing - I'll sew the odd button or put up a hem for a 
friend, but everything else is charged.  If you don't want to pay me, go 
to a tailor at a dry-cleaner and ask them - they will laugh at you.  Not 
to mention the specialized research and practice that historicals 
require.  I do cheat sometimes, but I know that I'm cheating and why.

  I think it might be because of the large numbers of hobby sewers out 
there, so people get spoiled.  Or maybe the perception that sewing is 
just "something your mom does" for free.  I spent about 20 minutes last 
week patiently explaining to a young prom-girl that a hand-beaded gown 
was probably out of her price range, and why.

One of the reasons I don't do wedding work anymore is that I ended up 
with a lot of brides and bridesmaids who expected me to do everything 
for them for free - the 6:00 AM call on a Sunday asking me where to buy 
kilt hose, for example.  Even my friends don't get to call me at that 
hour on a Sunday unless someone is dead.  Or the ones who expected me to 
go to the rehearsal for free "just to make sure everything is OK".  Or 
who changed patterns mid-stream.  I have had several want to back out 
mid-project because of this, and I usually suggest that they visit a 
bridal shop and ask what they would charge for the same thing.  I 
usually end up with rather sheepish brides.
<Rant Mode OFF>

Wendy Z
Wendy Wear Costumes
Minstrosity

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Subject: Re: [h-cost] A costumer's dream career?
Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 17:07:34 -0400
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Deredere,

One thing I read in an enterpeurer (sp) magazine a while back is that anyone
who owns their own business... if you own your own business you work it 24
hours a day seven days a week.  Even when you are off with your family, you
are still thinking of business.

I can personally tell you that even when we have been out of town, we end up
finding something costume related to do.  Luckily I have a husband who
doesn't mind.  He is a history lover too.  So while I am enjoying the
costumes, he is enjoying the history.

Swimteam events... well everyone is wearing swimsuits!  Or we talk about
what everyone is wearing.  I just can't get away from it.

Penny Ladnier
Owner, The Costume Gallery & Costume Classroom
http://www.costumegallery.com
http://www.costumeclassroom.com
http://www.onlinecostumeball.com


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Subject: Re: [h-cost] A costumer's dream career?
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In a message dated 4/29/2003 3:45:00 PM Central Standard Time, 
sarah@elizabethanlady.com writes:

> I feel the same way.  I want to donate my grave to archeologists 500 
> years from now so they can have fun studying me and my clothes from the 
> early part of the 21st century.  It's not desecration if you've got 
> permission, right?  ;)
> 

See? We don't mind, so I bet Jane Seymour doesn't mind. Somebody get me a 
crowbar...

Sarra Wryght
http://www.livejournal.com/users/loreleisedai/
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: A costumer's dream career?
Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 17:14:23 -0400
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Diana,

A lot of wedding gowns are historically based.  A lot of the gowns for the
past few years have been based off of 1950s gowns.  There are two successful
bridal designers (guys)  that use a lot of vintage embellishments.  I can't
recall their names but I see them on Style TV all the time.  Their gowns are
beautiful!

If it helps, I hear frequently from brides wanting inspiration for their
gowns or bridesmaids.  Occasionally, I hear from mothers-of-the-brides
wanting something for a historically based wedding.

So there is a market!

Penny Ladnier
Owner, The Costume Gallery & Costume Classroom
http://www.costumegallery.com
http://www.costumeclassroom.com
http://www.onlinecostumeball.com


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Kimiko wrote:

<<Do programmers (which my hubby is one) work for
free? Do consultants 
work 
for free? Do sports people work for free? Why then are

seamstresses/tailors 
expected to work for free, or even cheap?>>

Because like photographers (who are also usually
expected to supply tons of free photographs to people
just for allowing the photographer to take their
picture), everybody and their mother is a costumer.

My own guess: the basic skills in both areas
(clothing/costume construction and photography) are
relatively simple, and most people can master
operating a sewing machine or a camera. Unlike
programming, which if you don't know what you're
doing, it doesn't work, you can manage to turn out a
photograph, a piece of clothing, or a costume. It
might be cr*p, but it can be done.

Dawn

=====
Dawn Jacobson
Vallejo, CA, USA

"Of course I recognize her. Who else would wear ruby slippers with those socks?"
                                                               Wicked Witch
                                                               "Wizard of Oz", Act 1, Scene 7
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I can tell you a little story...

I have told you all about my lighting and sound son in high school.  A girl
that works with him, is a very talented costume maker.  I asked her the
other day is she going to college to do costumes or lighting and sound?  She
said, "There is no money in costumes BUT there is plenty in lighting and
sound."  AND she doesn't have to go to college to do lighting and sound.
Right now, these two kids make more money doing lighting and sound while in
high school than seasoned professionals in the costume industry.   They make
in one day what most teenager make in one week.  They have a gig in May for
one week with a dance studio that pays $1,000 each.  Just doing the lighting
and sound for dance recitals.   These two are in 11th grade.  They have been
working together for three years.

Penny Ladnier
Owner, The Costume Gallery & Costume Classroom
http://www.costumegallery.com
http://www.costumeclassroom.com
http://www.onlinecostumeball.com


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Subject: Re: [h-cost] A costumer's dream career?
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Kim,

When I was pregnant or one on my hips throughout most of the 80s, I sewed
for all of my sons.  They did appreciate it when they were about 4 y.o.
They wore the most fashionable clothes when they were little.  The
appreciation came when I took them out in public and everyone just praised
their clothes.  I also did a lot of needlework when they were little.  Now
all that children's needlework is on the walls of their kids rooms.  See
they did appreciate it!

Penny Ladnier
Owner, The Costume Gallery & Costume Classroom
http://www.costumegallery.com
http://www.costumeclassroom.com
http://www.onlinecostumeball.com


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From: "Penny Ladnier" <penny@costumegallery.com>
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] A costumer's dream career?
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Kim,

It takes special costumers to do weddings.  I have heard the headaches for
bridal costumers.  So people thrive on the stress.

It is important to hear the good side and bad side before making a career
change.

Penny Ladnier
Owner, The Costume Gallery & Costume Classroom
http://www.costumegallery.com
http://www.costumeclassroom.com
http://www.onlinecostumeball.com


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From: Drea Leed <drea@nospam>
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] A costumer's dream career?
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>
> I feel the same way.  I want to donate my grave to archeologists 500
> years from now so they can have fun studying me and my clothes from the
> early part of the 21st century.  It's not desecration if you've got
> permission, right?  ;)

Definitely!  :)  That's why I'm taking a vacuum-sealed box with me into
the grave, containing 1000 fabric swatches (labeled with the fabric name
and price and fabric width of each), and all my vogue/butterick/simplicity
patterns. And pattern catalogs. :>

Now, that's immortality...

Drea


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Subject: [h-cost] Book Score!!
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Ok, I just had to tell someone! I just bought Jacqueline Herald's "Dress in
Renaissance Italy" for $75.00 from Moe's in Berkeley.

I got an ABE Want match and just about wet my pants when I saw the title.  I
read it three times before I rushed to call Moe's to be told, I was sure,
the book is sold.  I tried to remain calm while the man went to look, and he
returned and said non-plussed "Yeah, it's right here."  Trying not to give
myself away, I blurted like an idiot "Woo hoo, I've been looking for it for
three years"  - To which he replied "I guess I should be charging more."

Kicked self promptly.  He rang me up for the advertised price (phew), and it
arrived yesterday.  Happy happy day!

angela
+++++
Angela F. Lazear
Cabbage Rose Costumes
Theatrical Costume Design
"I have no other but a woman's reason:
I think him so, because I think him so."
Two Gentlemen of Verona, Act I, Sc. I - W. Shakespeare

http://www.cabbagerosecostumes.com


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Congrads Angela!!!!!!!!!!  Have fun with the book!!!!!!!

Penny Ladnier
Owner, The Costume Gallery & Costume Classroom
http://www.costumegallery.com
http://www.costumeclassroom.com
http://www.onlinecostumeball.com


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In a message dated 4/29/2003 4:39:44 PM Central Standard Time, 
drea@nospam writes:

> >I feel the same way.  I want to donate my grave to archeologists 500
> >years from now so they can have fun studying me and my clothes from the
> >early part of the 21st century.  It's not desecration if you've got
> >permission, right?  ;)
> 
> Definitely!  :)  That's why I'm taking a vacuum-sealed box with me into
> the grave, containing 1000 fabric swatches (labeled with the fabric name
> and price and fabric width of each), and all my vogue/butterick/simplicity
> patterns. And pattern catalogs. :>
> 
> Now, that's immortality...
> 

And the modern couture construction technique books! 

See what thoughtful costumers we are? I'm sure 16th Century people were the 
same way. Let's dig up Alcega, he won't mind. 

I say cremate me, and stick me in a coffee can...don't want my dead people 
ickiness messing up my grave clothes. More room in the coffin for the 
artifacts-to-be. 

Sarra Wryght
http://www.livejournal.com/users/loreleisedai/
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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Lavolta Press <fran@lavoltapress.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] A costumer's dream career?
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Status: RO

This is true of anything connected with the "arts"--writing, dance, music, 
and the visual arts, which IMO include costuming.  Because many people do 
these things as hobbies, there is a perception (or at least a hope) that 
everyone is doing them as hobbies. Also, for women there is still a 
perception that women don't actually need to earn money, or that if they do 
their work is worth less. So a woman working in the arts gets a double dose 
of prejudice.

You need to do what has already been mentioned--maintain your prices and 
explain in detail, as often as necessary, why your work is worth 
them.  It's tedious but has to be done.

Don't fall for doing free work for "publicity."  It's a lot easier and 
usually more effective to put up a website, distribute flyers, and maybe 
take out a few inexpensive ads in closely related publications.

Fran




>Why do people expect us to give of our talents and abilities for free?

<snip>

>Do programmers (which my hubby is one) work for free? Do consultants work 
>for free? Do sports people work for free? Why then are 
>seamstresses/tailors expected to work for free, or even cheap?
>
>Sorry, its a frustration of mine in trying to create a business. I didn't 
>work for free as an accountant, yet people expect me to work for free as a 
>costumer.

Lavolta Press Books on Historic Costuming
http://www.lavoltapress.com
Historic and Vintage Dance
http://www.lavoltapress.com/dance 


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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: $$$ & Costume
Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 18:06:56 -0400
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They're lucky.
My bf has a bachelor's degree in lighting and sound and just can't seem to
find a decent job. He looked and eventually became discouraged and went to
work with his cousin making dentures...
I'll talk about it though, it might motivate him to start looking again.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Penny Ladnier" <penny@costumegallery.com>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2003 5:27 PM
Subject: [h-cost] Re: $$$ & Costume


> I can tell you a little story...
>
> I have told you all about my lighting and sound son in high school.  A
girl
> that works with him, is a very talented costume maker.  I asked her the
> other day is she going to college to do costumes or lighting and sound?
She
> said, "There is no money in costumes BUT there is plenty in lighting and
> sound."  AND she doesn't have to go to college to do lighting and sound.
> Right now, these two kids make more money doing lighting and sound while
in
> high school than seasoned professionals in the costume industry.   They
make
> in one day what most teenager make in one week.  They have a gig in May
for
> one week with a dance studio that pays $1,000 each.  Just doing the
lighting
> and sound for dance recitals.   These two are in 11th grade.  They have
been
> working together for three years.
>
> Penny Ladnier
> Owner, The Costume Gallery & Costume Classroom
> http://www.costumegallery.com
> http://www.costumeclassroom.com
> http://www.onlinecostumeball.com
>
>
> [This E-mail was scanned for viruses by Plugit.com Virus Scanners
(http://www.plugit.com)]
>
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Tue Apr 29 18:20:27 2003
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Reading you gals planning the "time capsules" that you expect to be your 
coffins, and the idea of throwing wrenches in other folks' research (albeit 
many years in the future) makes me wonder a bit. If you want to bury a time 
capsule, bury a time capsule and be done with. Not only will the funeral 
thing be a problem 'cos you won't be able to supervise it <eg>, there's no 
way of telling whether thirty, fifty, sixty, or eighty years from now we 
will be burying our dead intact, rather than requiring cremation or 
complete organ harvesting and organic recycling, or anything like that.

Another thing to consider -- since you may be young enough for your parents 
to have shielded you from your culture's death customs -- is whether or not 
you would be buried in *clothes* to begin with, and whether your coffin 
would be one that would be designed to last, or whether it would 
disintegrate into the soil in a few decades.



Brenda, whose culture sews linen shrouds around the washed corpses, builds 
nail-less pine boxes around them, and at most uses no-longer-readable 
prayer books and scrolls as "pillows" for the linen-wrapped heads of the dead

webwarren@earthlink.net


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From: Kimiko Small <kimiko@kimiko1.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: A costumer's dream job?
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At 02:22 PM 4/29/2003 -0700, you wrote:
>Unlike
>programming, which if you don't know what you're
>doing, it doesn't work, you can manage to turn out a
>photograph, a piece of clothing, or a costume. It
>might be cr*p, but it can be done.
>
>Dawn


I think you are onto something here. I have a graphics friend who is in a 
similar situation of people wanting his skills for free. Anyone can draw, 
maybe not well, but they can draw so they expect such "arts" to be cheap. 
But my photography friends expect to make a living at it, and they do make 
a decent living at it. But they do the work commercially in wedding 
portraits and aerial photography, not as the artistic work they prefer.

I guess it all depends on the market and the client expectations. Hence why 
wedding dresses can go for thousands, while costumes go for cheap.

Kimiko



Kimiko Small
Costumer, Fiber Artist, Web Designer, Wife and Mother
kimiko@kimiko1.com; http://www.kimiko1.com

Graphic Intern at Costume Gallery
http://www.costumegallery.com

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At 05:32 PM 4/29/2003 -0400, you wrote:
>Now
>all that children's needlework is on the walls of their kids rooms.  See
>they did appreciate it!
>
>Penny Ladnier


That is wonderful. It took me years to appreciate my mother's work for me, 
but now I cherish all the handwork I have of hers.

Kimiko



Kimiko Small
Costumer, Fiber Artist, Web Designer, Wife and Mother
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Graphic Intern at Costume Gallery
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Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 14:47:30 -0700
From: Kimiko Small <kimiko@kimiko1.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Book Score!!
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At 02:39 PM 4/29/2003 -0700, you wrote:
>Ok, I just had to tell someone! I just bought Jacqueline Herald's "Dress in
>Renaissance Italy" for $75.00 from Moe's in Berkeley.


Congratulations on such a score!! Please let us know what the book is like 
from your perspective. I had never heard of the book before. The review on 
Amazon.com makes me want the book too. I guess now I need to do an ABE watch.

Kimiko


Kimiko Small
Costumer, Fiber Artist, Web Designer, Wife and Mother
kimiko@kimiko1.com; http://www.kimiko1.com

Graphic Intern at Costume Gallery
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At 03:03 PM 4/29/2003 -0700, you wrote:
>You need to do what has already been mentioned--maintain your prices and 
>explain in detail, as often as necessary, why your work is worth 
>them.  It's tedious but has to be done.
>
>Don't fall for doing free work for "publicity."  It's a lot easier and 
>usually more effective to put up a website, distribute flyers, and maybe 
>take out a few inexpensive ads in closely related publications.


This brings me to ponder... is there any mail list you guys know of where 
costume/sewing businesses can chat about the business side of our work? I 
would hate to bore you all with the questions I am coming up with.

And thanks for the flyers idea. I thought of a brochure, but color prints 
are expensive for startup. The website is already in the works. I just need 
to devote more time to it. But housecleaning today comes first.

Kimiko



Kimiko Small
Costumer, Fiber Artist, Web Designer, Wife and Mother
kimiko@kimiko1.com; http://www.kimiko1.com

Graphic Intern at Costume Gallery
http://www.costumegallery.com

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Subject: [h-cost] Re: making a leine
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Somebody wrote:

> >Reconstructinghistory.com has a good article on the
Irish leine, but they
> >haven't put the construction notes in yet.  Can
anyone point me to a site 
>or
> >book that has construction information for a
woman's leine?  Or can I 
>just
> >take Ye Olde Basic Smock and make the sleeves
wider?
> >
> >Leah
>
>
There is an article in an old Tornaments Illuminated
(an SCA magazine) on 
constructing Leines I believe it does not use the
drawstring.  You can try 
the TI link off the www.sca.org site  I think it was
spring 2000.  Maybe you 
can get a copy
Maddalena



I don't know about Spring 2000, but much longer ago I
published an article in Tournaments Illuminated on
making a leine.  The byline is Mairghread-Ros
FitzGarret of Desmond (that's me).  Whatever you do,
please don't refer to that one.  It's interesting, and
nicely written <g> but it's wrong.  The pleated
sleeves are totally undocumented and undocumentable.

MaggiRos 

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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: A costumer's dream career?
Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 19:04:22 -0400
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Status: RO

Penny, you are absolutely right that there is a market, but for some reason,
the brides or their mothers have an idea that if it is old, it won't cost as
much...especially if the job is done by an 'unknown'. There have been times
when I wished that they would bring me a gown from a store they want
"tweaked." There is only so much "tweaking" a gown can take: while a new
gown under construction has an infinity for the same "tweaking." And the
'historically based' gown will be only as historical as their present day
aesthetics can imagine.
Kathleen
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Penny Ladnier" <penny@costumegallery.com>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2003 5:14 PM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: A costumer's dream career?


> Diana,
>
> A lot of wedding gowns are historically based.  A lot of the gowns for the
> past few years have been based off of 1950s gowns.  There are two
successful
> bridal designers (guys)  that use a lot of vintage embellishments.  I
can't
> recall their names but I see them on Style TV all the time.  Their gowns
are
> beautiful!
>
> If it helps, I hear frequently from brides wanting inspiration for their
> gowns or bridesmaids.  Occasionally, I hear from mothers-of-the-brides
> wanting something for a historically based wedding.
>
> So there is a market!
>
> Penny Ladnier
> Owner, The Costume Gallery & Costume Classroom
> http://www.costumegallery.com
> http://www.costumeclassroom.com
> http://www.onlinecostumeball.com
>
>
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Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 18:02:51 -0500
From: "Linda J. Thompson" <LindaJThompson@comcast.net>
Subject: [h-cost] A costumer's dream career?
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I'm sort of living my dream career... Getting to create, and get paid for it.  Have people 
actually appreciate what I do and get paid for it.  Have people actually solicit my 
opinion and get paid for it......  The only thing that would make it better is to get paid 
MORE for it.  :D

I have done stage work and while it is great fun and wonderful to sit in the audience and 
hear people oooh and aaaah over costumes you create and design, I am way over the stress 
of trying to get things done on an insane time schedule.  So I am very happy to make my 
own time schedule, and drive the people nuts who work for me.  :D
-- 
Linda Thompson

Attitude Is Everything
http://corsetsandcostumes.com


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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: $$$ & Costume
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Audrey,

They work at all kinds of events.  There is a whole groups of these kids,
all grandfathered by the former high school kids who have graduated.  So
they still all work together.  Plus, they have a wonderful teacher who got
there foot in the door and found them jobs to start with.  He taught them
how to negotiate their pay and hours.

Some of the places they have worked: dance competitions, plays including
professional and community theater, concerts like rock and country, theme
parks, large churches, think about any event that needs special lighting and
sound.   Plus, some are wanting to break into the film industry here.

If these kids wanted to, they could work every day of the week here.  We
live in a medium size metro and there is enough work to spread around.  The
owner of one of the big lighting crews here said "They are not really
interested in what shows you have worked, its what equipment you can
handle."  We are in a "right to work" state, so you don't have to be union
to do a job.  The union men told my son not to join.  He could demand a
higher price being non-union. The last show my son worked with the union
men, they were asking my teenage son how to do things.

To bring this back to a costume perspective... maybe we should have a
grandfathering program within the industry.

Penny Ladnier
Owner, The Costume Gallery & Costume Classroom
http://www.costumegallery.com
http://www.costumeclassroom.com
http://www.onlinecostumeball.com


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Do I live in the dark or what?  In my location the arts and history are
respected.  Musicians, artists, historians, and such are loved and
respected.  When I lived in New Mexico it was the same.  I have seen crafts
and art go for big $$$ in the Southwest.  I would have assumed that
California was very arts driven... am I wrong?  Growing up in Mississippi,
the arts was on the wayside... a hobby.  History was viewed as the history
of the area, but was not put on the front burner.

Penny Ladnier
Owner, The Costume Gallery & Costume Classroom
http://www.costumegallery.com
http://www.costumeclassroom.com
http://www.onlinecostumeball.com


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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: 17th century shoes 
Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 09:31:43 +1000
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Status: RO

There's also Mark Beaby, but I'm not sure of his contact details.

> In that case I'd suggest Sarah Juniper in the UK:
> 
> http://www.sarahjuniper.co.uk/
> 
> Nicole
> 
> >hi,
> > >i am looking for a good supplier of 17th century womens shoes, any one
> > know
> > >of anywhere?
> > >thanks
> > >jennie
> > 

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Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 16:27:35 -0700
From: Kimiko Small <kimiko@kimiko1.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: $$$ & Costume
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At 07:14 PM 4/29/2003 -0400, you wrote:
>To bring this back to a costume perspective... maybe we should have a
>grandfathering program within the industry.


Do you mean like an apprenticeship? I often think that would be a wonderful 
way to learn and improve one's skills.

However, I keep hearing rumors about how competitive we costumers are and 
how we don't want to share what we know. I am not like that, and yet I hear 
it from others in my local faire community. I sure hope this is a 
misconception, because I would love to learn from the masters in this 
industry... but living in a non-costume conducive city, the only place I 
can turn to is places online, like your company. Driving to LA or the Bay 
all the time is just too far, except for once in awhile.

Kimiko



Kimiko Small
Costumer, Fiber Artist, Web Designer, Wife and Mother
kimiko@kimiko1.com; http://www.kimiko1.com

Graphic Intern at Costume Gallery
http://www.costumegallery.com

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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: A costumer's dream career?
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Kathleen,

Maybe if someone could start with a modern dress and embellish it.  I can
take about anything and make it look somewhat like another time period or
vintage.  Just add a little here and there.  There are very few really new
designs... most of them are based on another time period... a sleeve from
here, a skirt from there.

Penny Ladnier
Owner, The Costume Gallery & Costume Classroom
http://www.costumegallery.com
http://www.costumeclassroom.com
http://www.onlinecostumeball.com


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Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 16:44:34 -0700
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Found heavy linen twill
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Status: RO

No, it just looks like a basket.
But it does resemble Silk Noil -- it's raw or wild silk that
hasn't had the sticky stuff washed out.  Silk Noil is washed, it's just
made of spun fiber, instead of filament.  "Noil" means "waste" and it's
often made from waste broken off from the more prized longer fibers,
or broken cocoons.


On Tuesday, April 29, 2003, at 08:43 AM, Audrey Bergeron-Morin wrote:

> I believe matka is similar in appearance to silk noil.
>
> Isn't matka the kind that hasn't had the natural silk "substances" 
> washed
> out?
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Heather Meadows" <alice@wonderland.com>
> To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2003 1:23 AM
> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Found heavy linen twill
>
>
>> Matka is a very loose basket weave cloth.  Looks very 'homespun' but
>> has nice drape.
>>
>>
>> On Monday, April 28, 2003, at 06:04 PM, Sue Clemenger wrote:
>>
>>> Ouch! It is pretty highly priced, even after a Canadian/US 
>>> conversion.
>>> Looks like nice stuff though--I might have to get some, if my tax
>>> refund
>>> every comes....;-D
>>> Scrolling down that same page, I see some silks, as well.  I'm not
>>> interested in the silk noile, but what is silk "matka?"
>>> --sue, who has *no doubt* that Drea is an evil temptress! <g>
>>>
>>> Drea Leed wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Guys,
>>>>
>>>> A friend tipped me off to a site selling really heavy duty pure 
>>>> linen
>>>> twill fabric.  The price is rather painful, but the prices are
>>>> Canadian;
>>>> and the fabric, when I saw it, was the spitting image of the twill
>>>> used
>>>> for the Effigy Corset of Queen Elizabeth.
>>>>
>>>> http://www.berlinembroidery.com/fabrics.htm#linentwill
>>>>
>>>> Thought some of youse 16th c. guys would be interested, too.
>>>>
>>>> Drea
>>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> h-costume mailing list
>>> h-costume@mail.indra.com
>>> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: $$$ & Costume
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Kim,

Actually the fashion industry is very secretive and hoarding their ideas.
Almost every costumer I have ever met is a very sharing person.  Do you see
workshops or symposia in the fashion industry?  Not very many.  There are
shows of their finished products.  I have heard that the craft industry is
very protective and secretive.

Even when I was in college, the fashion design students were very secretive.
The costume design students would learn something new and come in class
proud as a peacock then teach everyone what they had learned.  There is more
of a fellowship in the costume industry.

Have you ever watched the fashion designers bash online another on Style TV?
I have and it is not nice.

Penny Ladnier
Owner, The Costume Gallery & Costume Classroom
http://www.costumegallery.com
http://www.costumeclassroom.com
http://www.onlinecostumeball.com


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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: A costumer's dream job?
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On Tuesday, April 29, 2003, at 04:25  PM, Penny Ladnier wrote:

> Do I live in the dark or what?  In my location the arts and history are
> respected.  Musicians, artists, historians, and such are loved and
> respected.  When I lived in New Mexico it was the same.  I have seen 
> crafts
> and art go for big $$$ in the Southwest.  I would have assumed that
> California was very arts driven... am I wrong?  Growing up in 
> Mississippi,
> the arts was on the wayside... a hobby.  History was viewed as the 
> history
> of the area, but was not put on the front burner.

Hi Penny,

I think on a general level, California is extraordinarily arts driven.  
It is very much a living force in every community I've encountered in 
the State, but it does tend to get overshadowed by the technology and 
Hollywood aspects on a national/global level.  San Francisco is *the* 
place for the arts in California, for starters, but it just doesn't end 
there.  As for the historical angle, if you talk to the living history 
folks who do Gold Rush era stuff, it's definitely popular.  Pre-1850's 
centered groups are harder to find, unless you like SCA events or Ren 
Faires (and CA has tons of those), but they are out there.  It's been 
my experience that they're just not as well known and you have to go 
looking for them.

On the flip side, California is also the land of the budget cuts for 
the arts.  They're typically the first thing, along with counseling and 
nursing services to be cut from public schools here in the state.  It's 
outrageous.  Looking at how the government wants to cut even more 
funding for schools (which means even more cutbacks in the arts) I 
wonder what's going to be left?

But somehow, the arts still survive.  :)

Sarah

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Subject: Re: [h-cost] costume business list? (was: A costumer's dream career?)
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Check out PACC - it's for Custom Clothiers, which can certainly include 
Costumers.

http://www.paccprofessionals.org/


On Tuesday, April 29, 2003, at 03:20 PM, Kimiko Small wrote:

> At 03:03 PM 4/29/2003 -0700, you wrote:
>> You need to do what has already been mentioned--maintain your prices 
>> and explain in detail, as often as necessary, why your work is worth 
>> them.  It's tedious but has to be done.
>>
>> Don't fall for doing free work for "publicity."  It's a lot easier 
>> and usually more effective to put up a website, distribute flyers, 
>> and maybe take out a few inexpensive ads in closely related 
>> publications.
>
>
> This brings me to ponder... is there any mail list you guys know of 
> where costume/sewing businesses can chat about the business side of 
> our work? I would hate to bore you all with the questions I am coming 
> up with.
>
> And thanks for the flyers idea. I thought of a brochure, but color 
> prints are expensive for startup. The website is already in the works. 
> I just need to devote more time to it. But housecleaning today comes 
> first.
>
> Kimiko
>
>
>
> Kimiko Small
> Costumer, Fiber Artist, Web Designer, Wife and Mother
> kimiko@kimiko1.com; http://www.kimiko1.com
>
> Graphic Intern at Costume Gallery
> http://www.costumegallery.com
>
> _______________________________________________
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> h-costume@mail.indra.com
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Subject: [h-cost] Re: corded corsets
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You'll pretty much have to cord the whole thing.  Drea's site has good 
directions pointed to.  Also, if you're on Margo's Patterns list, there 
are a couple of people over there who have sucessfully made corded 
corsets and wear them happily, who are often very willing to answer 
questions as you go.

Best suggest I've heard of, so far BTW was to get yourself one of those 
nice *long* afghan crochet hooks to pull the doubled hemp cord through 
the channels.

-Elisabeth


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From: KATHRYN WOLTERS <albrakat7@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Book Score!!
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
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Angela ---I am soooooo jealous!!! I've been trying to get my hands on my own copy for 15 years:( I've been kicking myself for not buying it 20 years ago when the Getty still had 1 copy left:(  Spending $60 at the time seemed so steep.Lesson well learned , since . Sigh!!! Well, congrats! anyway and enjoy!Albra

Angela Lazear <angelalazear@sbcglobal.net> wrote:Ok, I just had to tell someone! I just bought Jacqueline Herald's "Dress in
Renaissance Italy" for $75.00 from Moe's in Berkeley.

I got an ABE Want match and just about wet my pants when I saw the title. I
read it three times before I rushed to call Moe's to be told, I was sure,
the book is sold. I tried to remain calm while the man went to look, and he
returned and said non-plussed "Yeah, it's right here." Trying not to give
myself away, I blurted like an idiot "Woo hoo, I've been looking for it for
three years" - To which he replied "I guess I should be charging more."

Kicked self promptly. He rang me up for the advertised price (phew), and it
arrived yesterday. Happy happy day!

angela
+++++
Angela F. Lazear
Cabbage Rose Costumes
Theatrical Costume Design
"I have no other but a woman's reason:
I think him so, because I think him so."
Two Gentlemen of Verona, Act I, Sc. I - W. Shakespeare

http://www.cabbagerosecostumes.com


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At 07:43 PM 4/29/2003 -0400, you wrote:
>Have you ever watched the fashion designers bash online another on Style TV?
>I have and it is not nice.

I don't get that channel, and I am glad to know that costumers share their 
knowledge. All the people on this list has been wonderful in sharing and I 
am glad to be able to soak that knowledge up. sluuuuurrrrrpppppp!

;-)

Kimiko



Kimiko Small
Costumer, Fiber Artist, Web Designer, Wife and Mother
kimiko@kimiko1.com; http://www.kimiko1.com

Graphic Intern at Costume Gallery
http://www.costumegallery.com

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Hi Sarah,

Here in Fresno, the center of California in distances, the arts is so-so. 
The zoo is barely making it. The few museums have little to show, and 
budget is tight. Some of the politicians are trying to improve the arts, 
but with budget cuts much of the funding may go away. The symphony is doing 
ok I hear, but I am not as close to that area of the arts anymore.

Our best in re-enactment is the Civil War groups that meet at Kearny Park 
(and museum) in October. It's billed as the biggest in the state, and I 
love to watch it every year. This year I plan on making a dress for it. We 
also have four ren-faires within an hours drive. I don't know much about 
the SCA anymore, at least locally.

I think it depends on where in the state you go. The mountains have many 
art communities, and the gold rush historical areas seem to do well. But 
with the current economy, even the crafters in those communities, such as 
in Oakhurst which is on the way to Yosemite from Fresno is having a hard time.

But for costumers... my friend Linda used to have a costuming rental 
business. The only other costume rental business is out after the owner 
died a few years ago. Linda told me that there is a great interest in 
rentals, and few to fill that void in the valley with only one other shop 
an hour away. However, people don't want to pay much for rentals, even if 
you work your butt off like she does for her customers. She couldn't 
support herself with the company, so it has pretty much folded except for 
people she knows and for the kids she likes to help out in schools. I don't 
want to do rentals. I don't have the space for it, and I can't afford the 
startup cost of renting a space.

So I plan to do small custom work, and try to find my niche in this area. 
Boy do I sound pessimistic today. Really, I am not this pessimistic. {sigh}

Kimiko


Kimiko Small
Costumer, Fiber Artist, Web Designer, Wife and Mother
kimiko@kimiko1.com; http://www.kimiko1.com

Graphic Intern at Costume Gallery
http://www.costumegallery.com

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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Tue Apr 29 20:33:06 2003
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Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 17:31:54 -0700
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Lavolta Press <fran@lavoltapress.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: A costumer's dream job?
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Penny, do we have computer programmers or accountants on h-costume being 
expected to work at those tasks for free (except perhaps by a few people 
very close to them)? Do we have doctors or lawyers waiting tables (as 
actors and singers so often do) to make ends meet well enough to go on 
pursuing their "real" professions?  Do we have doctors sacrificing an hour 
of sleep every night and skipping lunches out every weekday to practice 
medicine in those few hours, because they need a full-time "day job" 
working at something they like less?  Which is what many fiction writers I 
know do--and not beginners, and not people who never get reviewed in 
_Publisher's Weekly_.  Do we have doctors who only work seasonally, as 
ballet dancers often must do?

In our society respect is expressed by money.  If the average person in the 
fine arts can't earn enough to live on--the average artist, not the small 
percentage of "stars"--that profession isn't getting respect.

And I'm not talking about California, I'm talking about the US as a 
whole.  Sure, San Francisco has tons of cultural activity.  But most 
artists I know still don't make a living at it. I know quite a few people 
via the net as well as locally.  And this was true even before the 
recession. It's been true all my life.

And as for history--have you checked out the job market in university 
teaching positions, or paid full-time museum positions?

Fran


At 07:25 PM 4/29/2003 -0400, you wrote:
>Do I live in the dark or what?  In my location the arts and history are
>respected.  Musicians, artists, historians, and such are loved and
>respected.  When I lived in New Mexico it was the same.  I have seen crafts
>and art go for big $$$ in the Southwest.  I would have assumed that
>California was very arts driven... am I wrong?  Growing up in Mississippi,
>the arts was on the wayside... a hobby.  History was viewed as the history
>of the area, but was not put on the front burner.
>
>Penny Ladnier
>Owner, The Costume Gallery & Costume Classroom
>http://www.costumegallery.com
>http://www.costumeclassroom.com
>http://www.onlinecostumeball.com
>
>
>[This E-mail was scanned for viruses by Plugit.com Virus Scanners 
>(http://www.plugit.com)]
>
>_______________________________________________
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Lavolta Press Books on Historic Costuming
http://www.lavoltapress.com
Historic and Vintage Dance
http://www.lavoltapress.com/dance 


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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Book Score!!
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Albra,
Thanks,  I passed on it three years ago at the same store for $285, and was
kicking myself a year and a half later.  The guy could totally tell I'd have
given him my arm for it, but he'd already set the price.  Fortunately he was
honest.  At least if you put yourself on the ABE want list now, I'm one less
person you're competing with  for the find.  With my luck, the book will be
back in print in a month, now that I've found one!

Cheers

angela

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "KATHRYN WOLTERS" <albrakat7@yahoo.com>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2003 5:19 PM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Book Score!!


> Angela ---I am soooooo jealous!!! I've been trying to get my hands on my
own copy for 15 years:( I've been kicking myself for not buying it 20 years
ago when the Getty still had 1 copy left:(  Spending $60 at the time seemed
so steep.Lesson well learned , since . Sigh!!! Well, congrats! anyway and
enjoy!Albra
>
> Angela Lazear <angelalazear@sbcglobal.net> wrote:Ok, I just had to tell
someone! I just bought Jacqueline Herald's "Dress in
> Renaissance Italy" for $75.00 from Moe's in Berkeley.
>
> I got an ABE Want match and just about wet my pants when I saw the title.
I
> read it three times before I rushed to call Moe's to be told, I was sure,
> the book is sold. I tried to remain calm while the man went to look, and
he
> returned and said non-plussed "Yeah, it's right here." Trying not to give
> myself away, I blurted like an idiot "Woo hoo, I've been looking for it
for
> three years" - To which he replied "I guess I should be charging more."
>
> Kicked self promptly. He rang me up for the advertised price (phew), and
it
> arrived yesterday. Happy happy day!
>
> angela
> +++++
> Angela F. Lazear
> Cabbage Rose Costumes
> Theatrical Costume Design
> "I have no other but a woman's reason:
> I think him so, because I think him so."
> Two Gentlemen of Verona, Act I, Sc. I - W. Shakespeare
>
> http://www.cabbagerosecostumes.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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>
> ---------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
> The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo.
> _______________________________________________
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From: Catherine Olanich Raymond <cathy@thyrsus.com>
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Trim store needed...
Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 21:22:26 -0400
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On Tuesday 29 April 2003 12:39 pm, Lyn Greaves- home wrote:
> There are some online sources for trim as well (TLBarnes and Calontir trim
> come to mind)- I think you mean the trim that comes in white or black
> backgrounds?

Also, be aware that M&J Trim (which somebody else mentioned in another post) 
has its own web site:

http://www.mjtrim.com/home.asp
-- 
Cathy Raymond <cathy@thyrsus.com>

"Intelligence is the ultimate aphrodisiac."  Timothy Leary
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From: Catherine Olanich Raymond <cathy@thyrsus.com>
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: making a leine
Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 21:27:23 -0400
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On Tuesday 29 April 2003 06:53 pm, Maggie Pierce Secara wrote:
>[text cut here]

> I don't know about Spring 2000, but much longer ago I
> published an article in Tournaments Illuminated on
> making a leine.  The byline is Mairghread-Ros
> FitzGarret of Desmond (that's me).  Whatever you do,
> please don't refer to that one.  It's interesting, and
> nicely written <g> but it's wrong.  The pleated
> sleeves are totally undocumented and undocumentable.

In any event, I seem to remember that so far as sca.org is concerned, all the 
issues of TI before 113 are out of print (check the web site, though, for the 
issue with the article you're interested in to make certain).

-- 
Cathy Raymond <cathy@thyrsus.com>

"Intelligence is the ultimate aphrodisiac."  Timothy Leary
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From: "Penny Ladnier" <penny@costumegallery.com>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: $$$ & Costume
Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 21:32:02 -0400
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Oh Kim, Style TV is wonderful!!!!!!!  I could watch it for hours.  It shows
a lot of designer profiles and old fashion shows.

Penny Ladnier
Owner, The Costume Gallery & Costume Classroom
http://www.costumegallery.com
http://www.costumeclassroom.com
http://www.onlinecostumeball.com


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From: "Kendra Van Cleave" <kendrav@attbi.com>
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Question about 19th c. pockets....
Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 18:40:20 -0700
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----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Sue Clemenger" <mooncat@in-tch.com>
To: <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2003 6:59 AM
Subject: [h-cost] Question about 19th c. pockets....


<snip>
> Someone mentioned reading _Jane Eyre_ as a child, and being puzzled by a
> bit in the book where Jane puts her purse into her pocket, with the
> implication that it was a larger item.  My brain immediately thought of
> those pairs of pockets from the 18th c., but Jane's 19th c.....
> Did women and girls still use those pairs of pockets in the 19th c? Or
> am I completely off-base?

I believe that during the 1830s - 1850s they did wear pockets in the 18th
century sense (meaning separate garments) -- I have a photocopy of an
article at work that I can check tomorrow:
Burman, Barbara.  "Pocketing the Difference:  Gender and Pockets in
Nineteenth-Century Britain."  _Gender and History_ 14(3) (2002):  447-?.
Also in Burman, Barbara and Carole Turbin.  _Material Strategies:  Dress and
Gender in Historical Perspective_.  Oxford:  Blackwell, 2003.



I just finished rereading _I Capture the Castle_ (set in 1930s England,
written in the 1940s) by Dodie Smith (who also wrote _One Hundred & One
Dalmatians_), and one of the characters mentions forgetting to put her purse
into her satchel (or handbag... can't remember what she called it).  Anyway,
I certainly got the impression that "purse" in this sense referred to her
wallet.



I'll report back on the Burman article tomorrow!



- Kendra

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From: "Lisa Sinervo" <lisa-list@threadneedlest.com>
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: A costumer's dream job?
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.......I kind of hate to point out the obvious Fran, but Penny just offered
UNPAID internships for people to prepare material to be published on her
website.........humm....thinking ........thinking........."is there anyway
to post this to the list annomoyously????"


Lisa



----- Original Message -----
From: "Lavolta Press" <fran@lavoltapress.com>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2003 5:31 PM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: A costumer's dream job?


> Penny, do we have computer programmers or accountants on h-costume being
> expected to work at those tasks for free (except perhaps by a few people
> very close to them)? Do we have doctors or lawyers waiting tables (as
> actors and singers so often do) to make ends meet well enough to go on
> pursuing their "real" professions?  Do we have doctors sacrificing an hour
> of sleep every night and skipping lunches out every weekday to practice
> medicine in those few hours, because they need a full-time "day job"
> working at something they like less?  Which is what many fiction writers I
> know do--and not beginners, and not people who never get reviewed in
> _Publisher's Weekly_.  Do we have doctors who only work seasonally, as
> ballet dancers often must do?
>
> In our society respect is expressed by money.  If the average person in
the
> fine arts can't earn enough to live on--the average artist, not the small
> percentage of "stars"--that profession isn't getting respect.
>
> And I'm not talking about California, I'm talking about the US as a
> whole.  Sure, San Francisco has tons of cultural activity.  But most
> artists I know still don't make a living at it. I know quite a few people
> via the net as well as locally.  And this was true even before the
> recession. It's been true all my life.
>
> And as for history--have you checked out the job market in university
> teaching positions, or paid full-time museum positions?
>
> Fran
>
>
> At 07:25 PM 4/29/2003 -0400, you wrote:
> >Do I live in the dark or what?  In my location the arts and history are
> >respected.  Musicians, artists, historians, and such are loved and
> >respected.  When I lived in New Mexico it was the same.  I have seen
crafts
> >and art go for big $$$ in the Southwest.  I would have assumed that
> >California was very arts driven... am I wrong?  Growing up in
Mississippi,
> >the arts was on the wayside... a hobby.  History was viewed as the
history
> >of the area, but was not put on the front burner.
> >
> >Penny Ladnier
> >Owner, The Costume Gallery & Costume Classroom
> >http://www.costumegallery.com
> >http://www.costumeclassroom.com
> >http://www.onlinecostumeball.com
> >
> >
> >[This E-mail was scanned for viruses by Plugit.com Virus Scanners
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> >
> >_______________________________________________
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>
> Lavolta Press Books on Historic Costuming
> http://www.lavoltapress.com
> Historic and Vintage Dance
> http://www.lavoltapress.com/dance
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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From: Catherine Olanich Raymond <cathy@thyrsus.com>
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] A costumer's dream career?
Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 21:47:03 -0400
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On Tuesday 29 April 2003 02:13 pm, Kimiko Small wrote:
> At 02:22 PM 4/29/2003 +0200, you wrote:
> >I have been asked to make theatre costumes but they expected me to work
> >for free.
>
> Why do people expect us to give of our talents and abilities for free? That
> is one thing I have seen over and over in the ren faire groups I work with,
> that the ladies are to dress everyone in their guild for free. Don't they
> realize that our abilities take time to master and that our time is as
> valuable as theirs?
>
> Do programmers (which my hubby is one) work for free? Do consultants work
> for free? Do sports people work for free? Why then are seamstresses/tailors
> expected to work for free, or even cheap?

Look, people always expect to get free benefits from friends and 
acquaintances.  That's why lawyers and doctors have to learn to deal with 
annoying requests for free legal/medical advice at cocktail parties and the 
like.  It's not just professional costumers.  Really it isn't!  :-)


-- 
Cathy Raymond <cathy@thyrsus.com>

"Intelligence is the ultimate aphrodisiac."  Timothy Leary
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From: "Jennifer Sena" <distantdesigns@hotmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: A costumer's dream job?
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Boy do I sound pessimistic today. Really, I am not this
>pessimistic. {sigh}
>
>Kimiko,

Reality isn't pessimism.  The fact is that in our disposable world people 
are getting so out of practice in actually looking at quality.  I struggled 
for four years to have a business, not to earn "a living" but to help out my 
husband who supports all of us(4people, 3 large dogs).  Last year was my 
last chance and the world fell apart.

I wont stop costuming or loving the learning process for each new technique 
and era, but I don't know how anyone can really make anywhere close to what 
the dedication they put in is worth.  Once in a while something sells and I 
get a rush of self pride, but most of the time I just wear what I make, even 
if I have to wear it to the grocery store.

Now I'm volunteering in the local library and get to play costumes with the 
kids on story days.  It may not be much, but at least I get to play.  :)



Jennifer Sena
Distant Designs
http://home.teleport.com/~cedric/distdesi

I wont hurt you, I just want to dress you up!!






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To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
References: <000101c30df9$d5116290$723ba7d1@Elizabeth>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] A costumer's dream career?
Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 18:50:51 -0700
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This is a complicated question for me, because I'm split about 70/30 on this
one....

About 30% of me would love to be a film or theater costumer -- in the past
few years I've been working on improving my construction skills, and learned
to draft my own patterns which has been great.  However, each time I make a
costume for a friend or customer, I find myself irritated by the experience.
Usually I'm not getting paid enough to make it worth my while (both a
problem of me undervaluing myself and them undervaluing me), and the
customer usually doesn't appreciate the same things in costumes that I do
(attempting to be as historically accurate as possible and appreciating fine
construction work over glitz).  Obviously this is different than working in
theater or film, but there is a lot of joy in costuming for myself.

The other 70% of me wants to do scholarly research related to the history of
fashion in social context.  I'm actually at work on this one -- as I'm an
academic librarian, I'm required to do research and publish, and this has
helped me to continue with my interests in this area.  I recently finished
rewriting my master's thesis into an article on the experiences and
interpretations of fashion among female college students in the 1920s, and
I've sent it off to an academic history journal (keep your fingers
crossed!).  However, I feel hampered in that I don't have a Ph.D. (I have
two master's degrees, one in library science and one in history) -- this
means that I probably won't be publishable by scholarly book publishers, and
always makes me feel inferior when stacked up against those who do have this
degree.  But I'm forging on ahead, and am already excited about my next
research project!

- Kendra

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From: "Sharon Saracino" <shashy.rn@verizon.net>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: A costumer's dream job?
Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 22:16:49 -0400
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>but Penny just offered
UNPAID internships for people to prepare material to be published on her
website.

Yes she did...but bear in mind that though unpaid monetarily, Penny allows those working on her site to take any of the classes offered free of charge and also gives those people access to educational materials, etc. that they would not otherwise have available to them.  Also, it is a voluntary position which places no one under any obligation.
Sharon
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From: "Lisa Sinervo" <lisa-list@threadneedlest.com>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: A costumer's dream job?
Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 19:16:28 -0700
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I expected such a response, and I actually agree with it.  I do believe that
people do work for a variety of reasons, to build skills, a resume,
experience, to contribute to the community and people in need ask for help
in order to achieve often similar aims.  I just think it's important to keep
reality in perspective in these types of conversations, otherwise one can
end up being hypocritical.

Lisa

----- Original Message -----
From: "Sharon Saracino" <shashy.rn@verizon.net>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2003 7:16 PM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: A costumer's dream job?


>but Penny just offered
UNPAID internships for people to prepare material to be published on her
website.

Yes she did...but bear in mind that though unpaid monetarily, Penny allows
those working on her site to take any of the classes offered free of charge
and also gives those people access to educational materials, etc. that they
would not otherwise have available to them.  Also, it is a voluntary
position which places no one under any obligation.
Sharon
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>>Oh man, that's neat. I've been thinking about how cool it would be to 
>>start
>>popping open the graves of people whose clothing I'd like to get a look 
>>at.
>>Heck, some of the stuff has to be a little intact, right? And the facial
>>reconstruction thing is beyond cool. I know, "Desecration" and all. You 
>>know
>>what, if 500 years from now, some textile archeologist wants to dig me up 
>>and
>>play with my seams, great!
>
>Heya Sarra!
>
>I feel the same way.  I want to donate my grave to archeologists 500 years 
>from now so they can have fun studying me and my clothes from the early 
>part of the 21st century.  It's not desecration if you've got permission, 
>right?  ;)
>
>Sarah
>
My husband wants to be buried in his armor.  Boy will it throw the 
scientists when they find his historically accurate lamelar armor over his 
prequilted gambuson and tie dyed Tshirt!! ;)

Jen

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From: "Glenda Robinson" <glendar@compassnet.com.au>
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> There's also Mark Beaby, but I'm not sure of his contact details.
> 
Silly me - I should have googled him first! 

http://www.bjarnisboots.co.uk/

Glenda.
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The only corollary I've encountered to this is in the cosplay (anime
costuming) community.  Since the demographic is, on the whole, younger than
the general costuming community, you get a fair bit of high-school cliqueish
behaviour.  People seem to decide to hate whoever's most well known, with
snide remarks, "Oh, she's a bitch" and such.   General nastiness is often
floating around, which often makes me glad that I've never become part of
any one group; I pretty much just work on my own.  I have no patience for
immature behaviour.

-- Maral

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Kimiko Small" <kimiko@kimiko1.com>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2003 8:18 PM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: $$$ & Costume


> At 07:43 PM 4/29/2003 -0400, you wrote:
> >Have you ever watched the fashion designers bash online another on Style
TV?
> >I have and it is not nice.
>
> I don't get that channel, and I am glad to know that costumers share their
> knowledge. All the people on this list has been wonderful in sharing and I
> am glad to be able to soak that knowledge up. sluuuuurrrrrpppppp!
>
> ;-)
>
> Kimiko
>
>
>
> Kimiko Small
> Costumer, Fiber Artist, Web Designer, Wife and Mother
> kimiko@kimiko1.com; http://www.kimiko1.com
>
> Graphic Intern at Costume Gallery
> http://www.costumegallery.com
>
> _______________________________________________
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>


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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Tue Apr 29 22:14:12 2003
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: A costumer's dream job?
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Hi Kimiko,

I'm in Sacramento, so obviously my reference is more or less an 80 mile 
radius around Sac... ;) But it sounds like things in Fresno are pretty 
much the same as they are here.  We do have a strong Gold Rush era 
contigency that is active in this area, and then there's always SF 
which is light years ahead of anywhere else in the state in terms of 
culture and historic-costume related venues, etc.

> Here in Fresno, the center of California in distances, the arts is 
> so-so. The zoo is barely making it. The few museums have little to 
> show, and budget is tight. Some of the politicians are trying to 
> improve the arts, but with budget cuts much of the funding may go 
> away. The symphony is doing ok I hear, but I am not as close to that 
> area of the arts anymore.

The central valley has a lot of neat community based arts and culture 
movements, but it really does depend on the personal investment of the 
community and the less reliance on state funding, the better.  My 
fiance comes from Visalia, which is getting a fairly healthy theater 
and music scene going.  When we were down there a few weeks ago we 
detoured into Exeter for breakfast and I was blown away by the kind of 
results a small town can turn out if they have good community funding.  
The mural project there is just so wonderful and the town itself has 
obviously had some love poured into it.  Still, the one major drawback 
(at least for me) is that if you're not really interested in the Gold 
Rush/Civil War eras, you're pretty much out of luck (particularly so if 
you don't care for the SCA time period or Ren Faires).  There are small 
groups that I know of who reenact English Civil War era stuff and some 
Regency groups active in the Bay Area, but they're not at the 
forefront.  It probably has a lot to do with the actual history of the 
land more than anything... I can see Regency and 18th century 
reenactment being a bigger priority on the East Coast, which has a 
personal history that dates back that far.  Whereas most people in 
California only know that things started to get going around the 
1850's, so the personal interest in reenacting groups is more focused 
on the last 150 years or so.

> Our best in re-enactment is the Civil War groups that meet at Kearny 
> Park (and museum) in October. It's billed as the biggest in the state, 
> and I love to watch it every year. This year I plan on making a dress 
> for it. We also have four ren-faires within an hours drive. I don't 
> know much about the SCA anymore, at least locally.

SCA is still huge in California.  For better or for worse, it's still 
going strong.  ;)

> I think it depends on where in the state you go. The mountains have 
> many art communities, and the gold rush historical areas seem to do 
> well. But with the current economy, even the crafters in those 
> communities, such as in Oakhurst which is on the way to Yosemite from 
> Fresno is having a hard time.

Well, if it's tourist driven, yes.  But take Exeter for example... It's 
really not any stop-over place to anywhere in the state.  It's just 
there in the middle of citrus orchards on an offshoot of Hwy 198 going 
East.  However, it really looks as though the residents of that town 
put in some serious personal effort to revive their community by making 
the mural project.  So, it takes community to make these things work, 
really.

> But for costumers... my friend Linda used to have a costuming rental 
> business. The only other costume rental business is out after the 
> owner died a few years ago. Linda told me that there is a great 
> interest in rentals, and few to fill that void in the valley with only 
> one other shop an hour away. However, people don't want to pay much 
> for rentals, even if you work your butt off like she does for her 
> customers. She couldn't support herself with the company, so it has 
> pretty much folded except for people she knows and for the kids she 
> likes to help out in schools. I don't want to do rentals. I don't have 
> the space for it, and I can't afford the startup cost of renting a 
> space.

Yeah, I don't blame you.  I think that the costume rental business 
would be too heartbreaking to really get anything worthwhile out of it. 
  There is a fellow here in Sac who made a killing off of costume 
rentals by complete accident, but he's not working his butt off making 
high quality costumes.  He just aquires his stuff from vintage shops, 
theaters, etc.

> So I plan to do small custom work, and try to find my niche in this 
> area. Boy do I sound pessimistic today. Really, I am not this 
> pessimistic. {sigh}

Good luck!  I hope it works out for you.  I don't have the stomach for 
a costume business so I really admire people who make a go at it.  :)

Sarah

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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Tue Apr 29 22:17:59 2003
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Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 19:16:58 -0700 (PDT)
From: KATHRYN WOLTERS <albrakat7@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Trim store needed...
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
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I really like Cheeptrims , too--although I had'nt realized that they were a wholesale outfit ----until they sent me a little card asking for all my business info.Whoops!!!Albra

Beteena Paradise <bkessinger@ureach.com> wrote:I have bought quite a bit from cheeptrims and for the most part their stuff
is great. I have had trouble with a couple of things that all came from the
same mill so I avoid those trims. You can tell the mill by the first 3
numbers of the item number. The mill I had a problem with was 095. Their
prices are really good though! I have found a couple that were identical to
that found at Calontir and MJTrim for a LOT less.

----- Original Message -----
From: 
To: 
Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2003 12:46 PM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Trim store needed...


> If you don't mind ordering from the web try www.cheeptrims.com.
> They have such a huge selection of trims and laces that I spend hours
> just drooling over them. And their prices are reasonable too.
>
> Lalah
> Never give up, Never surrender
> _______________________________________________
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> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
>
>

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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: A costumer's dream job?
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>I just think it's important to keep
reality in perspective in these types of conversations, otherwise one can
end up being hypocritical.


Agreed!

Sharon

Granny's Closet...a Peek into the Past
http://www.grannyscloset.net

The Costume Gallery
(on staff)
http://www.costumegallery.com/
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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Lavolta Press <fran@lavoltapress.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] A costumer's dream career?
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>
>Look, people always expect to get free benefits from friends and
>acquaintances.  That's why lawyers and doctors have to learn to deal with
>annoying requests for free legal/medical advice at cocktail parties and the
>like.  It's not just professional costumers.  Really it isn't!  :-)

But doctors and lawyers generally earn a good living for their 
work.  Meaning most people who approach them pay.  And they don't need to 
work at some other profession to support what they really want to do, like 
so many artists.

Fran



Lavolta Press Books on Historic Costuming
http://www.lavoltapress.com
Historic and Vintage Dance
http://www.lavoltapress.com/dance 


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That's up to Penny.  I'm not blaming her, but I would not feel comfortable 
with it. I do have freelancers working for me from time to time, and I pay 
them well.

Fran

At 06:54 PM 4/29/2003 -0700, you wrote:
>.......I kind of hate to point out the obvious Fran, but Penny just offered
>UNPAID internships for people to prepare material to be published on her
>website.........humm....thinking ........thinking........."is there anyway
>to post this to the list annomoyously????"
>
>
>Lisa
>

Lavolta Press Books on Historic Costuming
http://www.lavoltapress.com
Historic and Vintage Dance
http://www.lavoltapress.com/dance 


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Subject: [h-cost] Costumer's Dream Career
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For the record: I don't think I could ever make my costuming hobby into a
full-time career. I lack the formal education and experience, and the few
experiences I've had making things for pay/making things on a schedule have
tainted the pure joy of creation, at least for me!

Having said this, in an ideal world I think I could be happy working in the
textile/costume collection at the V&A or similar - just me, the clothes, a
quiet place, and study, planning exhibits, etc. (I actually have little idea
what it would be like to be a museum researcher or curator - I'm just
dreaming here).

I must say I do envy Penny for doing the Lucasfilm workshop - whatever may
be said of the recent Star Wars films in terms of plot/acting, they've
looked PERFECT!

Allison

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>That's up to Penny.  I'm not blaming her, but I would not feel comfortable 
with it. I do have freelancers working for me from time to time, and I pay 
them well.

That's wonderful if that is your choice and within your means to do so, Fran.  On the other hand, Penny has not exactly gone out and recruited people into bondage. She makes very clear from the start exactly what the arrangements and expectations are, and again, this is strictly voluntary.  In actual fact, Penny did not ask me, I came to her and offered to intern as a way to learn and grow in my interests and skills.  It's a mutually beneficial arrangement, so,  as I say, though I am not currently reimbursed monetarily, I certainly don't feel as though I am doing anything for "free". But I  each must measure by their own reference point.  I have freelanced in many different areas and certainly monetary compensation is great and always welcome...but there are other forms of "payment" that I consider just as valuable depending on the circumstances. :)

Sharon

Granny's Closet...a Peek into the Past
http://www.grannyscloset.net

The Costume Gallery
(on staff)
http://www.costumegallery.com/
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: A costumer's dream job?
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Fran,

I don't know why you are going after me. Boy, are you coming out of left
field today.  I never ever said that costumers shouldn't be paid what they
are worth.  As a matter of fact, I pass costume job announcements via my
website's newsletter several times a month.  My goal is to have everyone
paid in the industry who wants to be employed.  Everyone on my newsletter
(472 members today) knows that and a lot of h-costumers are on my newsletter
can attest to that.  Several people have written me telling me that they got
the job from the announcement I sent.  I spend many hours a month trying to
find costuming job announcements to pass along to others.  LACMA also sends
me job announcements to post to my newsletter.

As for universities, I pass along job announcements for them too.  If you
think there aren't many openings, think again.  I know I have passed along
several open university level positions in the past few months via my
newsletter.

If and a very big IF you are referring to the message that I quoted the high
school girl, you might want to read the entire message.  If you could make
$500-1,000 a week in high school and higher afterwards without a degree...
would you go to college and be in debt for 20 years of the cost of school?

Just remember that only 10% of the population of the U.S. have a college
degree.  Over 50% of college freshmen drop out after their first semester.
AND only 10% of college graduates work in the field of their college degree
major... quoted from every business professor I had in college.

Fran, go back and read my messages carefully for today.  You will see I
NEVER said that costumers don't deserve to be paid what they are worth.  And
if you are ready to a flame war forget it.  I don't play your game.

My apologies to the members on h-costume for being very blunt.  I do not
like people mis-quoting others and trying to stir things up.  This is the
second time since being on  h-costume since 1996 that I have had the need to
talk this way.

Penny Ladnier
Owner, The Costume Gallery & Costume Classroom
http://www.costumegallery.com
http://www.costumeclassroom.com
http://www.onlinecostumeball.com

----- Original Message -----
From: "Lavolta Press" <fran@lavoltapress.com>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2003 8:31 PM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: A costumer's dream job?


> Penny, do we have computer programmers or accountants on h-costume being
> expected to work at those tasks for free (except perhaps by a few people
> very close to them)? Do we have doctors or lawyers waiting tables (as
> actors and singers so often do) to make ends meet well enough to go on
> pursuing their "real" professions?  Do we have doctors sacrificing an hour
> of sleep every night and skipping lunches out every weekday to practice
> medicine in those few hours, because they need a full-time "day job"
> working at something they like less?  Which is what many fiction writers I
> know do--and not beginners, and not people who never get reviewed in
> _Publisher's Weekly_.  Do we have doctors who only work seasonally, as
> ballet dancers often must do?
>
> In our society respect is expressed by money.  If the average person in
the
> fine arts can't earn enough to live on--the average artist, not the small
> percentage of "stars"--that profession isn't getting respect.
>
> And I'm not talking about California, I'm talking about the US as a
> whole.  Sure, San Francisco has tons of cultural activity.  But most
> artists I know still don't make a living at it. I know quite a few people
> via the net as well as locally.  And this was true even before the
> recession. It's been true all my life.
>
> And as for history--have you checked out the job market in university
> teaching positions, or paid full-time museum positions?
>
> Fran



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At 04:27 PM 04/29/2003 -0700, Kimiko Small wrote:

living in a non-costume conducive city, the only place I 
>can turn to is places online, like your company. Driving to LA or the Bay 
>all the time is just too far, except for once in awhile.

Where do you live, Kimiko?  

Margo



"The Diana Gabaldon of costume patterns"
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I'm not criticizing you for being an intern.

My paying freelancers is not a question of my "choosing" to pay them 
because I have lots of spare cash to play with. When I hire someone I 
expect them to have certain specialized professional skills and experience. 
I require them to work under supervision, under contract, and to a 
deadline. I screen and interview candidates very carefully, and choose the 
best available. They, in turn, are doubtless interviewing with and 
screening other potential employers. Probably no one with the skills I need 
(from time to time) would work for me for free. And if they did want to, 
for some reason, I wouldn't feel comfortable about placing the demands on 
them that I do. I'm running a business, not a hobby.

And I'm not saying it's wrong for anyone to have a costuming-related hobby, 
either. I'm just saying the expectations are different. This is exactly 
what people have been discussing, when they say customers want them to do 
intensive hand beading super cheap, wor ant then to keep redesigning the 
garment after it's partly made. And then don't understand why they need to 
charge, or even why they charge at all.

You just can't run a business like a hobby, and people need to understand 
the difference.  Again, I am far from blaming anyone from having a 
costuming hobby. But the discussion has been about how to establish a 
costuming business.

Fran



>That's wonderful if that is your choice and within your means to do so, 
>Fran.  On the other hand, Penny has not exactly gone out and recruited 
>people into bondage. She makes very clear from the start exactly what the 
>arrangements and expectations are, and again, this is strictly voluntary.




Lavolta Press Books on Historic Costuming
http://www.lavoltapress.com
Historic and Vintage Dance
http://www.lavoltapress.com/dance 


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Thank you!

I'll give that a try.
Michelle
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From: Kimiko Small <kimiko@kimiko1.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: $$$ & Costume
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At 08:01 PM 4/29/2003 -0700, you wrote:
>Where do you live, Kimiko?
>
>Margo


Fresno, CA. Smack dab in the middle between LA and SF. Four hours either 
way. No costume guild here, but thankfully a fiber arts guild that has 
welcomed me.

Kimiko



Kimiko Small
Costumer, Fiber Artist, Web Designer, Wife and Mother
kimiko@kimiko1.com; http://www.kimiko1.com

Graphic Intern at Costume Gallery
http://www.costumegallery.com

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Hi, All. Couldn't help sounding in on this one. I work in the entertainment
field, doing just about anything I am asked to do. I have found that, although
my brothers and sisters in the Wardrobe local attached to us are incredibly
talented, and get paid at the same rate that I do, there is not as much call
for their talents as there is for lighting, sound and other things. On the
road show of Riverdance that I just helped load in, the show will require 4 to
6 dressers, but will need 4 flymen, 8 electricians, 4 soundmen  and 4
carpenters (as well as the road crew essential techs). They have a massive
wardrobe, and the show has two wardrobe techs with it, but it is still a small
part of the package. OTOH, the company that manufactured the costumes for the
show probably had a number of talented seamstresses, but, sad to say, they
were probably being paid poorly by the company that hired them (although this
is not always the case). As I mentioned before, I have been in the wardrobe
dept., and have been head of dept. on a few shows. Fortunately, our contract
doesn't differentiate in pay between departments (unless you are in a high
risk area, which pays more), so our people get the same rate. Penny, you seem
justifiably proud of your son. Let me know when he starts buying equipment and
begins a rental house, I'll mention him to folks who need gear in your area.;)
Clothing and costume is tough, it seems everyone thinks they can do it, so
they don't have a problem paying poor wages. Mike T.



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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: A costumer's dream job?
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>customers want them to do 
intensive hand beading super cheap, wor ant then to keep redesigning the 
garment after it's partly made. And then don't understand why they need to 
charge, or even why they charge at all.


I certainly can relate to this statement during the period when I was doing web design....very frustrating indeed!  One of the main reasons I gave it up. And I also agree that you cannot run a business like a hobby and everyone is entitled to recompense for their hard work and expertise.  There is the difference in my case, ...for Penny, and so many others on this list, costume is a business, first and foremost. This is, for the most part, and as far as I can tell, a group of dedicated, educated, well informed, talent persons in the field of costume and history. For me, at present, it is a very enjoyable hobby, a great learning experience, and so for me, "payment" for my work can take forms other than monetary at the moment :)

Sharon

Granny's Closet...a Peek into the Past
http://www.grannyscloset.net

The Costume Gallery
(on staff)
http://www.costumegallery.com/
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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Lavolta Press <fran@lavoltapress.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: A costumer's dream job?
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At 10:59 PM 4/29/2003 -0400, you wrote:
>Fran,
>
>I don't know why you are going after me. Boy, are you coming out of left
>field today.  I never ever said that costumers shouldn't be paid what they
>are worth.

I did not accuse you of saying costumers should not be paid what they are 
worth. Nor did I accuse you of not helping people to find jobs.

My impression was merely that you have a somewhat rosier view of payment 
for careers in "the arts" in the US than seems realistic to me.  I 
fervently wish all artists were paid what they are worth. I  fervently wish 
all the arts had the same respect as medicine, law, computer science, and 
any number of other careers.  I fervently wish people didn't think "women's 
work" is worth less money.  But the sad reality is, people don't give due 
respect to or payment for the arts or to "women's work."   I also wish 
plentiful jobs in colleges and museums were available for historians.  But 
they're not.

My disagreeing with what I think you said is not starting a flame war.  Not 
to mention--it takes more than one person to conduct one.

I hate to say this, but although some people do make full-time livings 
costuming, there are a lot of people with the skills and desire to do so 
who probably can't.  And, for the ones who do, it's not uncommon to have to 
explain to their customers why their work is worth decent pay.  I'm not 
saying people can't succeed, but it is work and they will have to swim 
against cultural expectations about art and about "women's work."  It's 
better for people to know this before starting a business, if they don't 
know it already.

Fran



Lavolta Press Books on Historic Costuming
http://www.lavoltapress.com
Historic and Vintage Dance
http://www.lavoltapress.com/dance 


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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Tue Apr 29 23:39:27 2003
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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>,
   Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Margo Anderson <margo@margospatterns.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: $$$ & Costume
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At 08:06 PM 04/29/2003 -0700, Kimiko Small wrote:
>At 08:01 PM 4/29/2003 -0700, you wrote:
>>Where do you live, Kimiko?
>>
>>Margo
>
>
>Fresno, CA. 

Oh, darn.  I was hoping you were nearer to me.  I'm also in The Rest Of
California, (Not the Bay Area, Not LA) but too far from you to do either of
us any good.

I've been trying to figure out, though, are you the Kimmy who was in Saint
Bridget's guild, the first year they started up at Northern Faire..oh,
about '84 or so?

Margo

"The Diana Gabaldon of costume patterns"
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From: "Lisa Sinervo" <lisa-list@threadneedlest.com>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
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	<013e01c30ec5$fb9380c0$6501a8c0@sharon>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: A costumer's dream job?
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Sharon,

I started historically costuming at a museum that ran living history events
and it was a great trade off for me, my time for library access and
experience and it even lead to a paid job offer.  But I was smart enough
even as a volunteer to know that "volunteer work" is often looked down upon
or at least not taken as seriously as paid employment when it comes to
future job interviews.  So, I "contracted" my services to the museum in
exchange for office space, an informal agreement between myself and the
director, so in the future if ever asked if my "work" was paid work, I could
say "yes" and honestly too.  I never discussed the payment terms and was
never asked.  Something to consider in this money seems to be the barometer
of value world we live in.

Lisa


----- Original Message -----
From: "Sharon Saracino" <shashy.rn@verizon.net>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2003 8:09 PM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: A costumer's dream job?


>That's up to Penny.  I'm not blaming her, but I would not feel comfortable
with it. I do have freelancers working for me from time to time, and I pay
them well.

That's wonderful if that is your choice and within your means to do so,
Fran.  On the other hand, Penny has not exactly gone out and recruited
people into bondage. She makes very clear from the start exactly what the
arrangements and expectations are, and again, this is strictly voluntary.
In actual fact, Penny did not ask me, I came to her and offered to intern as
a way to learn and grow in my interests and skills.  It's a mutually
beneficial arrangement, so,  as I say, though I am not currently reimbursed
monetarily, I certainly don't feel as though I am doing anything for "free".
But I  each must measure by their own reference point.  I have freelanced in
many different areas and certainly monetary compensation is great and always
welcome...but there are other forms of "payment" that I consider just as
valuable depending on the circumstances. :)

Sharon

Granny's Closet...a Peek into the Past
http://www.grannyscloset.net

The Costume Gallery
(on staff)
http://www.costumegallery.com/
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Book Score!!
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Angela Lazear wrote:
> Ok, I just had to tell someone! I just bought Jacqueline Herald's "Dress in
> Renaissance Italy" for $75.00 from Moe's in Berkeley.

I have a want set for that one too and of course it was gone by the time 
I checked.  In four years I've found one copy and that was for $200.  I 
got it because the name was mispelled "Harold" and I'll search for 
obvious mispellings.  It's not my time period so I'm not interested in a 
personal copy, but I keep a look-out for friends.  I'm glad someone got 
it who can appreciate it.

--Charlene

-- 
No matter what happens, somebody will find a way to take it too 
seriously.  -- Dave Barry, "Dave Barry Turns 50"

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From: "Penny Ladnier" <penny@costumegallery.com>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
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Subject: [h-cost] My interns and more
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My interns are getting paid as each of them can tell you.  We look at it as
a barter system.  They each get to take classes for free, that is $60 per
class and they can take classes as long as they work with us.  Plus they get
free access to my library which turns over to a paysite late tomorrow. (more
about this at the end of this message).  I interviewed 25 potential interns.
Of the 25 only 1 did not go with the program.  She opted out because of the
software she uses is not compatible with ours.  I have a waiting list of
other 5 people wanting to interns in the summer.  All the barter
arrangements were made up front.  Plus, I give job referrals to potential
employers if the job performance is good.  Internships helps them build a
portfolio and an education in the process.

If you are looking for a real honest to good paid internship, good luck.
Most internships, outside of the computer programming world, are unpaid.
For a matter of fact, when I was an intern at the Valentine Museum, I paid
the university $500+ to do the internship.  I was really lucky that at the
end of the summer, they awarded me a $500 scholarship... only one of two
given.  There were several interns that summer and only two received
scholarships.  So I broke even.  BUT what I learned and the contacts I made
while working at the Valentine is worth thousands $$$ more.  I will forever
be in depth to the Valentine for all they taught me.  And the costume
industry connections I made were unreal.  I went into the internship as
green as could be.  Colleen and Teresa, the curators, introduced me to so
many people in the industry.  We took field trips to behind-the-scenes
collections that I would of never had access to as a private individual.  I
got my job with my millionaire client because of being an intern with the
Valentine.  And yes, I did earn back my $500 and more from just this one
connection.  Teresa taught me how to deal with research and work with major
TV, film, and journalists.

I look at my interns with the same eyes.  I want to help them build a
foundation for their careers or education.  I want them to learn to go to
the original source, how to document, and how to strive for perfection.
They are learning how to work together as a team.  On top of all this, they
are getting to work with publications that have been forgotten by history.
This is the main reason they wanted to do the internship.

I am sure Susan, Sharon, Jennifer, and Kim can all tell you what joy it has
brought to them to take a cruddy old image and bring it back to life.  I
taught all three of them how to do this.

As I said before, tomorrow we are turning the Gallery's Library over to a
pay site.  Then you will start to see all of our hard work of the interns,
review committee, and our staff.  Our goal is to make the Library the
largest online costuming resource with actual articles and images from the
periods represented.  I have literally thousands of articles and images to
go online.  I am also publishing my color names documentation through the
library.  As the Library starts to generate sufficient funds, we will hope
to hire the best from our intern pool.  I hope at that time to begin
purchasing the higher end publications from pre-1800 to put online in the
Library.

Penny Ladnier
Owner, The Costume Gallery & Costume Classroom
http://www.costumegallery.com
http://www.costumeclassroom.com
http://www.onlinecostumeball.com


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Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 21:27:24 -0700
From: Kimiko Small <kimiko@kimiko1.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: $$$ & Costume
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At 08:40 PM 4/29/2003 -0700, you wrote:
>Oh, darn.  I was hoping you were nearer to me.  I'm also in The Rest Of
>California, (Not the Bay Area, Not LA) but too far from you to do either of
>us any good.
>
>I've been trying to figure out, though, are you the Kimmy who was in Saint
>Bridget's guild, the first year they started up at Northern Faire..oh,
>about '84 or so?
>
>Margo


Sorry. Just for my curiosity's sake, where do you live?

Alas, no I am not that Kimmy, but I am familiar with the guild. I don't go 
by Kimmy, but sometimes Kim. I have a friend named Kimmi and we don't like 
being confused with one another. She also costumes and lives near SF.

Kimiko



Kimiko Small
Costumer, Fiber Artist, Web Designer, Wife and Mother
kimiko@kimiko1.com; http://www.kimiko1.com

Graphic Intern at Costume Gallery
http://www.costumegallery.com

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Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 22:41:30 -0600
From: Sue Clemenger <mooncat@in-tch.com>
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Thanks.  Sounds like it might have yummy modern possibilities, but
nothing that I could use for my historical costuming.  bummer.
Say, does anyone know when stuff like this, and the noils and what not,
started becoming popular? Sometime in the 20th century, maybe? I find it
interesting that I, and my persona, would have very different views on
the stuff....well, but we'd *both* love to own some of the
cut-and-voided 16th c. silk velvet I've been fortunate enough to see. 
Over 400 years old, and it's still shiney......yumm!
--sue

Heather Meadows wrote:
> 
> Matka is a very loose basket weave cloth.  Looks very 'homespun' but
> has nice drape.
> 
> On Monday, April 28, 2003, at 06:04 PM, Sue Clemenger wrote:
> 
> > Scrolling down that same page, I see some silks, as well.  I'm not
> > interested in the silk noile, but what is silk "matka?"
> > --sue, who has *no doubt* that Drea is an evil temptress! <g>
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From: Kimiko Small <kimiko@kimiko1.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: A costumer's dream job?
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At 07:09 PM 4/29/2003 -0700, you wrote:
>The central valley has a lot of neat community based arts and culture 
>movements, but it really does depend on the personal investment of the 
>community and the less reliance on state funding, the better.  My fiance 
>comes from Visalia, which is getting a fairly healthy theater and music 
>scene going.  When we were down there a few weeks ago we detoured into 
>Exeter for breakfast and I was blown away by the kind of results a small 
>town can turn out if they have good community funding.


I grew up in Dinuba, 20 minutes north of Visalia. I went to COS in Visalia 
in early 90s. Reedley, 7 miles NW of Dinuba also has a great theatre and 
arts community, and takes care of its downtown area. Dinuba... has gone 
downhill since I moved. I haven't been to Exeter in many years, and they 
have a great spinners and weavers guild. Three Rivers in the hills east of 
Exeter is small, but has several fiber artists in residence. Oakhurst has a 
few as well.

It does all depend on location. Fresno I thought would offer more. It's the 
biggest metro city in this part of the Central Valley. It has a wonderful 
and very creative fiber arts guild, but I am the only costumer in the 
group; most are quilters. Many years back another lady tried to get a 
costumers guild going, and found only me and a couple of other people 
interested. It died before it could start.

The Met Museum recently got a facelift, and its surrounding area is being 
reworked into an art zone, partly to revitalize the downtown area. But the 
stadium got the big money and still few people want to come back downtown 
after hours to do anything. Budget cuts have hurt, and the city politicians 
are very short sited. I know, my husband works at City Hall.

It's not to say that the arts isn't thriving here, but like many places it 
depends on the type of arts. Our Tower District has several small art 
houses, but the one lady who sold designer fabrics brought from the LA 
garment district in the Tower area had to close up shop from lack of a 
solid customer base. We all loved her stuff, but there isn't enough 
interest here to support her. She now sells Berninas and is very active 
with the fiber arts guild.

I love costuming. I always will. It would help to have more support and 
understanding in this area I live in. Thankfully I have you all, and my 
ren-faire friends who understand this passion we all share. Hopefully in 
time, we can educate the rest of the world that what we do is not mass 
market work, but worthy of being paid well. However, in my training in 
business, I know the modern reality of the throw away society we live in, 
where quality craftsmanship and art is highly undervalued, unless you are 
selling golf clubs.

Kimiko


Kimiko Small
Costumer, Fiber Artist, Web Designer, Wife and Mother
kimiko@kimiko1.com; http://www.kimiko1.com

Graphic Intern at Costume Gallery
http://www.costumegallery.com

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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Question about 19th c. pockets....
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I don't know, Kate, since it's been many years since I've read _Jane_
(good weather for it right now, though....)
I thought it might either be a case of a small "purse" (like a coin
purse) being put into a modern-ordinary pocket, or perhaps a different
version of a pocket.  And that got me to thinking....(yeah, I
know...it's dangerous, me thinking <g>)
--sue

Kate M Bunting wrote:
> 
> Sue wrote:
> 
> Kate Bunting
> Library, University of Derby
> 
> >>> Someone mentioned reading _Jane Eyre_ as a child, and being puzzled >by a bit in the book where Jane puts her purse into her pocket, with the
> >implication that it was a larger item.
> 
> Do you mean the purse was large?  Is this a confusion caused by the American use of "purse" for a handbag? I imagine Jane Eyre's purse as being a little knitted bag for holding coins.
> 
> > My brain immediately thought of those pairs of pockets from the 18th c., >but Jane's 19th c.....Did women and girls still use those pairs of pockets in >the 19th c? Or am I completely off-base?
> 
> I'm no 19th century expert, but I thought big pockets went out with the slimline Regency dresses, to be replaced by the "reticule" or handbag. I suppose when full skirts came back into fashion, a discreet pocket for money and a handkerchief was once more possible?
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From: "Wanda Pease" <wandap@hevanet.com>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: RE: [h-cost] Book Score!!
Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 21:55:41 -0700
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This is a wonderful book.  I got it years ago for $19 when it went on
remainder with _Gothic Europe_ by Ribiero.  I've broken the back of my copy
making copies for other people.  Boydell and Brewer, the same company that
put out the Tailor's Manual by Alcega, is interested in putting both books
out again, but the author owns the copyright, and they can't find one of
them.

I gather it didn't sell well when it first came out because of poor quality
in the color photos (bah!  who cares.  I can get the photos elsewhere now).
Then there was a warehouse fire that took many volumes with it.

If you get a chance at least look through it!

Regina Romsey

> -----Original Message-----
> From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com]On
> Behalf Of Charlene Charette
> Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2003 9:05 PM
> To: Historical Costume
> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Book Score!!
>
>
> Angela Lazear wrote:
> > Ok, I just had to tell someone! I just bought Jacqueline
> Herald's "Dress in
> > Renaissance Italy" for $75.00 from Moe's in Berkeley.
>
> I have a want set for that one too and of course it was gone by the time
> I checked.  In four years I've found one copy and that was for $200.  I
> got it because the name was mispelled "Harold" and I'll search for
> obvious mispellings.  It's not my time period so I'm not interested in a
> personal copy, but I keep a look-out for friends.  I'm glad someone got
> it who can appreciate it.
>
> --Charlene
>
> --
> No matter what happens, somebody will find a way to take it too
> seriously.  -- Dave Barry, "Dave Barry Turns 50"
>
> _______________________________________________
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>


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On Tuesday 29 April 2003 10:26 pm, Lavolta Press wrote:
> >Look, people always expect to get free benefits from friends and
> >acquaintances.  That's why lawyers and doctors have to learn to deal with
> >annoying requests for free legal/medical advice at cocktail parties and
> > the like.  It's not just professional costumers.  Really it isn't!  :-)
>
> But doctors and lawyers generally earn a good living for their
> work.  Meaning most people who approach them pay.  

Not necessarily.  It's precisely because doctors' and lawyers' services are 
expensive that people ask us for free advice so often.


>And they don't need to
> work at some other profession to support what they really want to do, like
> so many artists.

True enough, but that's a different point.

You're right, it's *not* fair that people expect professionals to give them 
the benefit of their services for nothing.  It's even less fair when people 
attempt to take advantage of professionals whose specialties do not make 
enough money to allow them to make a good living or even work at the 
specialty full time.  

-- 
Cathy Raymond <cathy@thyrsus.com>

"Intelligence is the ultimate aphrodisiac."  Timothy Leary
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From: "Penny Ladnier" <penny@costumegallery.com>
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: A costumer's dream job?
Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 01:19:37 -0400
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One last one from me on this topic... where we all don't agree about upper
income people and how much they are being paid VS us.  The upper income
people are the major backers of the cultural and performing arts.  They sit
on boards for museums, make endowments, etc.  I didn't have respect for
these people until seeing how much museums, historic sites, and performing
arts depend on these people.

They are the season ticket holders to the theaters, ballets, etc.  They are
the ones who send regular donations to museums.  From working with the elite
of Richmond, VA, they measure their wealth by how they help their given
charities... I call them their pet projects.

Fontaine's charities are the Richmond Ballet, Children's Cancer Ward at two
local main hospitals, the American Red Cross, Valentine Museum, Princess
Diana Foundation, and the Theater of VA.  Her husband's charity is the Boy
Scouts of America.

I know Fontaine worked from Sept. 30, 2001 to Aug. 2002 just planning the
Red Cross ball.  All money went to the Red Cross.  She paid for the ball
herself.

A lot of the general public does not see the contributions these people make
to our cultural arts or various organizations.  But they are getting out
there hosting fund raisers, sitting on boards, etc.  Many corporations have
their own pet projects.  We really saw this when my son was talking with
businesses about his Eagle Scout project.  Most people do not realize the
amount of support these people give and never ask for a thank you.  My
oldest son is in management at Starbucks.  On Christmas eve, they were all
in the hospital giving cancer kids gifts and playing Santa Claus.

I look at it this way, we may not make millions.  But I thank goodness that
there are rich people out there giving donations to the cultural arts, so I
can see wonderful works of art in museums.

I never planned to be a millionaire... just pay the bills and be happy at
what I contribute to the world.

Penny Ladnier
Owner, The Costume Gallery & Costume Classroom
http://www.costumegallery.com
http://www.costumeclassroom.com
http://www.onlinecostumeball.com


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Subject: Re: [h-cost] A costumer's dream career?
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Lavolta Press <fran@lavoltapress.com> wrote:
> 
> Don't fall for doing free work for "publicity."  It's a lot easier and 
> usually more effective to put up a website, distribute flyers, and maybe 
> take out a few inexpensive ads in closely related publications.

The code phrase to look out for is, "It'll be good exposure."  This really
means "We can't afford to pay you."  My typical response these days is, "You
can die of too much exposure."

Lee M.Thompson-Herbert        lee@retro.com	      KoX 1995, SP4
Head Muso, White Rats Morris, Faultline Morris
Member, Knights of Xenu (1995).  Chaos Monger and Jill of All Trades.
"A head-on collision between Morticia Adams and Martha Stewart"
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From: Robin Netherton <robin@shell.nightowl.net>
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: RE: [h-cost] Book Score!!
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On Tue, 29 Apr 2003, Wanda Pease wrote:

> This is a wonderful book.  I got it years ago for $19 when it went on
> remainder with _Gothic Europe_ by Ribiero.

Actually, _Late Gothic Europe_ by Margaret Scott.

>  I've broken the back of my copy making copies for other people.  
> Boydell and Brewer, the same company that put out the Tailor's Manual
> by Alcega, is interested in putting both books out again, but the
> author owns the copyright, and they can't find one of them.

Which author? Margaret Scott is still around, or at least I saw a paper
she published a couple of years ago. I'll be talking to a Boydell editor
next week on another matter, so if you've heard more about this, let me
know. I may be able to help. (No idea where Jacqueline Herald is, though.)

> I gather it didn't sell well when it first came out because of poor
> quality in the color photos (bah!  who cares.  I can get the photos
> elsewhere now). Then there was a warehouse fire that took many volumes
> with it.

Yes, you probably heard that on this list last December, when I told the
story (as Margaret told it to me many years ago).

--Robin


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Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 22:59:57 -0700
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Lavolta Press <fran@lavoltapress.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: A costumer's dream job?
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None of this, nor your post about the percentage of Americans graduating 
from college, etc., etc., has anything to do with costumer's incomes.

I was talking about the salaries of other professions compared to the 
arts.  By which I'd include many others besides doctors and 
lawyers--plumbers, for example, and many union jobs. (Although, I would 
call medicine and law, generally speaking, middle-class and not upper-class 
professions.  My brother is a lawyer BTW.)

My point is not that doctors, etc., deserve less pay or respect, but that 
costumers and other artists deserve equivalent pay and respect.  And that 
women and the professions associated with them deserve equal pay and 
respect to "men's work."

I don't see what you think we're disagreeing on. Your responses have no 
relation to my posts.

Fran



where we all don't agree about upper
>income people and how much they are being paid VS us.  T

Lavolta Press Books on Historic Costuming
http://www.lavoltapress.com
Historic and Vintage Dance
http://www.lavoltapress.com/dance 


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From: "Penny Ladnier" <penny@costumegallery.com>
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: A costumer's dream job?
Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 02:21:37 -0400
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Fran,

I wasn't even talking to you... give it a rest!

Penny Ladnier
Owner, The Costume Gallery & Costume Classroom
http://www.costumegallery.com
http://www.costumeclassroom.com
http://www.onlinecostumeball.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lavolta Press" <fran@lavoltapress.com>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2003 1:59 AM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: A costumer's dream job?


> None of this, nor your post about the percentage of Americans graduating
> from college, etc., etc., has anything to do with costumer's incomes.
>
> I was talking about the salaries of other professions compared to the
> arts.  By which I'd include many others besides doctors and
> lawyers--plumbers, for example, and many union jobs. (Although, I would
> call medicine and law, generally speaking, middle-class and not
upper-class
> professions.  My brother is a lawyer BTW.)
>
> My point is not that doctors, etc., deserve less pay or respect, but that
> costumers and other artists deserve equivalent pay and respect.  And that
> women and the professions associated with them deserve equal pay and
> respect to "men's work."
>
> I don't see what you think we're disagreeing on. Your responses have no
> relation to my posts.
>
> Fran
>
>
>
> where we all don't agree about upper
> >income people and how much they are being paid VS us.  T
>
> Lavolta Press Books on Historic Costuming
> http://www.lavoltapress.com
> Historic and Vintage Dance
> http://www.lavoltapress.com/dance
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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From: "Stephen Bergdahl" <madlystitching@earthlink.net>
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References: <CAE5E420-7AB0-11D7-B15B-0003934DD4B0@elizabethanlady.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: A costumer's dream job?
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Sarah" <sarah@elizabethanlady.com>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2003 7:09 PM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: A costumer's dream job?


 I can see Regency and 18th century
> reenactment being a bigger priority on the East Coast, which has a
> personal history that dates back that far.  Whereas most people in
> California only know that things started to get going around the
> 1850's, so the personal interest in reenacting groups is more focused
> on the last 150 years or so.
>

That is a problem with the schools out here in California.  They only teach
history of California starting with the 1850's.  But we have a much longer
history than just when the US stole California from Mexico.  The pre-gold
rush history is rich with intrusting people and clothing.  But it is all
sweep under the rug, because a lot of people don't want to face facts.

Stephen - On his soap box.

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From: =?iso-8859-1?q?N=20Kipar?= <nicolas_fouquet@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: 17th century shoes 
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
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 --- Glenda Robinson <glendar@compassnet.com.au> wrote: > 
> 
> > There's also Mark Beaby, but I'm not sure of his contact details.
> > 
> Silly me - I should have googled him first! 
> 
> http://www.bjarnisboots.co.uk/
> 

Yep, but he's a lot more expensive. How good any of them is? I honestly don't
care anymore who I think is better and who is worse, because someone out there
will lways have a different opinion. *shrug*
Still, my Kevin Garlick shoes are NOT elegant at all but the MOST comfortable.
My Sarah Juniper shoes (several) are very elegant, made with authentic lasts
and the closest to the originals, and lovely, but not quite as comfortable as
Kevin's.
Ben's Bjarni's boots expensive turnshoes fell apart after two weeks (!) and he
didn't even want to repair them on warranty (or whatever one calls that) so I
am not very happy with that one.
There is also Morgan Hubbard from Plantagenet shoes, who Ninya Mikhaila uses,
and who is apparently getting better and better, but I have no personal
experience with him:
http://www.plantagenetshoes.freeserve.co.uk/

Nicole

=====
Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgment.   ~ J.R.R. Tolkien

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From: "Kate M Bunting" <K.M.Bunting@derby.ac.uk>
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Question about 19th c. pockets....
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What I was trying to say was that "purse" to a British person always means a coin purse, so Jane's would certainly be small.

Kate Bunting
Library, University of Derby

>>> mooncat@in-tch.com 04/30/03 05:49am >>>
I don't know, Kate, since it's been many years since I've read _Jane_
(good weather for it right now, though....)
I thought it might either be a case of a small "purse" (like a coin
purse) being put into a modern-ordinary pocket, or perhaps a different
version of a pocket.  And that got me to thinking....(yeah, I
know...it's dangerous, me thinking <g>)
--sue

Kate M Bunting wrote:
> 
> Sue wrote:
> 
> Kate Bunting
> Library, University of Derby
> 
> >>> Someone mentioned reading _Jane Eyre_ as a child, and being puzzled >by a bit in the book where Jane puts her purse into her pocket, with the
> >implication that it was a larger item.
> 
> Do you mean the purse was large?  Is this a confusion caused by the American use of "purse" for a handbag? I imagine Jane Eyre's purse as being a little knitted bag for holding coins.
> 
> > My brain immediately thought of those pairs of pockets from the 18th c., >but Jane's 19th c.....Did women and girls still use those pairs of pockets in >the 19th c? Or am I completely off-base?
> 
> I'm no 19th century expert, but I thought big pockets went out with the slimline Regency dresses, to be replaced by the "reticule" or handbag. I suppose when full skirts came back into fashion, a discreet pocket for money and a handkerchief was once more possible?
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From: "Melanie Wilson" <MelanieWilson@dragonflight.co.uk>
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Subject: [h-cost] Raising money for Charity with costume-advice needed
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I need your advice fellow costumers.

For my sins I've been appointed fund raiser for the East Leicestershire
branch of Friends of Chernobyl's children.

We are hoping to bring 24 children to England in September of this year and
need to raise the money quickly (more details of the charity at the end for
those interested)

I had an idea to raise money by auctioning costumes I no longer need or fit
!!

Have any of you tried this before ? Do you think an online auction such as
ebay or a live auction would be better ? Any ideas on how to publicise this
?

I would really value your input on this as I need to get it right :)

FOCC is a UK charity who aims to bring the children affected by the
Chernobyl disaster in Belarus out into fresh clean air with uncontaminated
food for 1 month for at least  5 years, every month  out of the radiation
zone increases a child's life by 1-2 years, this is medical fact. The
charity is self supporting and absolutely nobody is paid.

80% is Belorussian land was affected by the tragedy and it will be
contaminated for another 24000 years.

I'm putting a web site up at www.foccel.org.uk which will be active soon and
give more details of what we plan to do and information on the project and
children on an ongoing basis. Please take a look in a week or so when I hope
to have a small "under construction" web page up and running .

Many thanks for your time

Mel

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That makes way too much sense! <g> In the U.S., at least in my
experience, "purse" is a (perhaps regional) term used for something
larger (as in "handbag"), and if you're referring to something smaller,
you add an adjective--as in "coin purse."
--sue

Kate M Bunting wrote:
> 
> What I was trying to say was that "purse" to a British person always means a coin purse, so Jane's would certainly be small.
> 
> Kate Bunting
> Library, University of Derby
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Subject: [h-cost] Teaching costuming (was: Costumer's Dream Career?)
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Catherine wrote:

Kimiko, Stephen and Lee; you took the words right out of my mouth!

I finally found the money vs satisfaction balance a few years ago.  I
also found teaching others to sew, instead of just sewing for them, very
satisfactory.  That is probably what kept me going as long as I did, his
will be my 25th year participating in our local faire (for most of those
years it was a not-for-profit faire so at least all of us working for
nothing felt there was some benefit going somewhere).

I am not sure what exactly I would choose in costuming for a dream
career but I know I would like satisfaction from it first, and then
enough money to at least pay the bills, and have an occasional trip over
the pond to do research :).

Catherine

	- This is what I've found most satisfying - I spent an afternoon showing a
friend how to make a simple skirt, and not only was it fun, I learned I
COULD convey what I knew, at least a little!

	- So now when folks ask me to make something for them, I tell them no, but
I'll show you how to do it yourself!

	- Allison

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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: A costumer's dream career?
Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 09:13:00 -0400
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Penny, this is how I began, and built my business on recreating shape and
silhouette for theater...on and off stage. I have called it"shaking my magic
wand". The problems begin with actors and other people not respecting the
Costume for its age or use. If it is old, it is expendable. If it is new, it
shouldn't cost too much, because after all, it is only for theater or will
only be worn once!
I figured out some time ago that value is determined by monetary cost and
payment. I've been running my business out of my home (one third of the
space of the house) almost from the beginning.  This has had its advantages
and disadvantages. As I am in a 'curbing mode', I realize that this home
base business has been one of the problems causing customers to expect I
will meet their need cheaper than Main Street establishments. By upping my
pay expectations, I find that their perception of what I do tend to make
them look on me and my work as professional.
Kathleen
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Penny Ladnier" <penny@costumegallery.com>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2003 7:33 PM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: A costumer's dream career?


> Kathleen,
>
> Maybe if someone could start with a modern dress and embellish it.  I can
> take about anything and make it look somewhat like another time period or
> vintage.  Just add a little here and there.  There are very few really new
> designs... most of them are based on another time period... a sleeve from
> here, a skirt from there.
>
> Penny Ladnier
> Owner, The Costume Gallery & Costume Classroom
> http://www.costumegallery.com
> http://www.costumeclassroom.com
> http://www.onlinecostumeball.com
>
>
> [This E-mail was scanned for viruses by Plugit.com Virus Scanners
(http://www.plugit.com)]
>
> _______________________________________________
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I think it may be a combination of lack of awareness and indifference,
myself.  Here in Montana, we have much of the same sort of history that
you do in California, although we don't have any of that marvelous
Spanish/Mexican history.  I mostly remember Montana history in high
school as being all about mining and fur traders and Indian massacres. 
I was well into a college degree before I discovered some of the
pre-Gold Rush history of the Pacific Northwest that *is* available.
--sue

Stephen Bergdahl wrote:
> 

> That is a problem with the schools out here in California.  They only teach
> history of California starting with the 1850's.  But we have a much longer
> history than just when the US stole California from Mexico.  The pre-gold
> rush history is rich with intrusting people and clothing.  But it is all
> sweep under the rug, because a lot of people don't want to face facts.
> 
> Stephen - On his soap box.
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: A costumer's dream job?
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>I started historically costuming at a museum that ran living history events
and it was a great trade off for me, my time for library access and
experience and it even lead to a paid job offer


Hi Lisa,
I only wish there were such an opportunity in my area.  Not only is there no museums in the area, but even living history, re-enactment availability is non-existant for the most part.  Maybe someday!  Sure sounds like you were thinking ahead! Thanks for sharing!

Sharon

Granny's Closet...a Peek into the Past
http://www.grannyscloset.net

The Costume Gallery
(on staff)
http://www.costumegallery.com/
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My ideal career would combine the best aspects of reenactment and
research--my two biggest loves being research and making things.  I
mostly do pre-17th c. stuff (because my reenactment group is the SCA),
but there are lots of other styles and times that I'd enjoy learning
about, as well.  I'd *love* to be able to afford being a research
geek--Robin's descriptions of what it would take to work with those
volumes on Edward, for instance, just make me drool.
If I could have *anything*, I'd like to act as a consultant in textile
conservation and historic costuming, and I'd travel--so many months at
this museum, so many at this, etc., etc.  With practical experience in
recreating garments, I'd also be able to work with groups or
institutions to give them better accuracy in their costuming needs,
whether that's for docents, or displays of "what medieval Dubliners
would have worn" or whatever.
And, since this is a "dream" career, I'd take classes and learn all
about setting up a really good website that specialized in needlework
and costuming--sort of a cross between Penny's site and Drea's site, and
bits from some of the rest of you.  Wouldn't it be neat, for instance,
to see the steps taken in conserving a garment done in diary format?
I've worked, some, in a costume shop (local University theatre) and
enjoyed it, but wouldn't want to do it for a living.  Theatrical
costuming is amazing and creative, and I love some of the things I've
seen, especially on this list!, but I know myself well enough to know
that I'm much more of a "leave me alone with a stack of books in a
library and let me work and then I'm happy" type.
--sue
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: A costumer's dream job?
Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 07:09:38 -0700
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Yes, Sharon, I found it does pay to think ahead.  You might find this
arrangement with the costumegallery works well for you now, but later on,
and maybe this is not the position you'll be in, but just in case I'll bring
it up, someone who is judging your value as a potential employee and is
deciding how much money to offer you, is going to ask why you did this work
for free, especially as it is not for a non-profit organization, which is
considered a more acceptable place to give services freely to.  I believe
the labour laws do allow for professional internships without pay, but as we
have discussed, costuming isn't really viewed by the public as a
professional occupation so that is another image obstacle.  You could,
contract your services to the CostumeGallery with compensation being
tuition.   It depends on your age and experience, but after your early
twenties, doing work "for free" will often be seen will simply be seen as
not valuing yourself, unless its just a friendship thing, which is also less
credible resume wise but has other intangible rewards.  I don't really know
your position in life or goals, but I thought I would offer some advise from
someone who has overcome the "volunteer" image/stigma to my advantage.

Lisa

----- Original Message -----
From: "Sharon Saracino" <shashy.rn@verizon.net>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2003 6:49 AM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: A costumer's dream job?


>I started historically costuming at a museum that ran living history events
and it was a great trade off for me, my time for library access and
experience and it even lead to a paid job offer


Hi Lisa,
I only wish there were such an opportunity in my area.  Not only is there no
museums in the area, but even living history, re-enactment availability is
non-existant for the most part.  Maybe someday!  Sure sounds like you were
thinking ahead! Thanks for sharing!

Sharon

Granny's Closet...a Peek into the Past
http://www.grannyscloset.net

The Costume Gallery
(on staff)
http://www.costumegallery.com/
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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Wed Apr 30 10:07:33 2003
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From: Mara Riley <corbiegirl@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: A costumer's dream job?
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Ironically, I was talking to my sister yesterday about another
friend's venture into the bridal boutiques in NYC -- apparently
brides are willing to pay thousands of dollars for disposable dresses
that are shoddily put together and intended to be worn only once.

Another friend of mine was looking into making bridal and prom
dresses.  I think she could have made a go of it; that's one of the
few areas where a costume designer can make money, from what little
I've heard about it.  One could make bridal gowns as a way of
supporting the rest of one's costume habit... <G>

I occasionally contemplate changing jobs, going back to school to get
a degree in textile conservation or something.  But I'm probably more
employable, and make more money, in the database management job I
have now.  Sad...

-- Mara

--- Jennifer Sena <distantdesigns@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Reality isn't pessimism.  The fact is that in our disposable world
> people 
> are getting so out of practice in actually looking at quality. 

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Penny,
You're in Richmond, right?  Have you thought about advertising your
internships at local colleges?  I'd have loved to have an opportunity
like that when I was in school...  We were encouraged to do
internships, but the only one I was interested in and interviewed for
was with the FBI academy in Quantico (didn't take it, transportation
was a problem).  Costume history would have been MUCH more
interesting!

I was a history/religion major at Mary Washington College in
Fredericksburg, VA.  That's within reasonable driving distance from
Richmond, I think -- there were students commuting to DC to do their
internships, which is about the same distance in the opposite
direction.  I'm sure there are other schools in the area with
internship programs, too.

-- Mara


--- Lisa Sinervo <lisa-list@threadneedlest.com> wrote:
> .......I kind of hate to point out the obvious Fran, but Penny just
> offered
> UNPAID internships for people to prepare material to be published
> on her
> website.... (snip)

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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: A costumer's dream job?
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Hi Lisa,
Thanks for the insight and I do appreciate it.  I don't anticipate I will ever have the option of costume as a full fledged career, (sadly)especially not in the area where I live...the opportunity is just not there, so for me, right now the learning experience is the thing.  I also have no doubt that Penny would be more than willing to give me a reference in the event something should come up in my area.  Bear in mind that my internship involves not only "costume" per say, but also web dvelopment, research, etc. and could be applicable in more than one area.  But again, I do truly appreciate your advice and interest and will surely keep it in mind. Thanks again!

Sharon

Granny's Closet...a Peek into the Past
http://www.grannyscloset.net

The Costume Gallery
(on staff)
http://www.costumegallery.com/
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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Wed Apr 30 10:18:21 2003
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From: Mara Riley <corbiegirl@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] A costumer's dream career?
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Oh, me too!  I've more or less decided I'm not going to sew costumes
for anyone other than myself, my hubby, and one or two friends who
really GET the whole craftsmanship / doing it RIGHT thing, instead of
wanting something quick and cheap.  That way I can sew to my
satisfaction, on the projects I want to work on.  We usually work out
barter agreements, books or fabric for finished clothing... <G>

The one exception to this is 18th c. stays -- so far I've only run
into one customer that I couldn't work with, because the market for
stays among reenactors will bear a decent price for a well-made
product.  (The one customer I had problems with isn't a reenactor --
she didn't want period stays, she wanted a costume.)  Some people
want cheap stays, but they eventually come to understand that you get
what you pay for, and either pay for a good set or learn to make
their own.  So, I'm still willing to take on stays orders, but only
two or three a year (I burn out if I do more), and only from people
who are local so that they can travel to my house for a fitting.

Publishing -- sometimes the academic books reach fewer people, and
make less of an impact, than what's written for a broader audience. 
And some of the best stuff (from a reenacting point of view) isn't
written by people with PhDs, it's written by dedicated amateurs. 
Look at the articles written for _Muzzleloader_ by people like Beth
Gilgun...  So it depends on what audience you're trying to reach. :D

-- Mara


--- Kendra Van Cleave <kendrav@attbi.com> wrote:
> This is a complicated question for me, because I'm split about
> 70/30 on this
> one....
> 
> About 30% of me would love to be a film or theater costumer -- in
> the past
> few years I've been working on improving my construction skills,
> and learned
> to draft my own patterns which has been great.  However, each time
> I make a
> costume for a friend or customer, I find myself irritated by the
> experience.
> Usually I'm not getting paid enough to make it worth my while (both
> a
> problem of me undervaluing myself and them undervaluing me), and
> the
> customer usually doesn't appreciate the same things in costumes
> that I do
> (attempting to be as historically accurate as possible and
> appreciating fine
> construction work over glitz).  Obviously this is different than
> working in
> theater or film, but there is a lot of joy in costuming for myself.
> (snip)

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Fran,
If I understand the unpaid internship thing (would have to go back
and read old posts for the specifics), it's actually a fairly common
practice for college students, etc., to take paid or unpaid
internships in a field in which they're interested in order to get
their foot in the door and learn the business from the ground up.

Say, for example, that the intern were given the duty of scanning in
a bunch of old documents, say, Harper's Bazaar or the Lady's Home
Journal.  This is grunt labor -- boring, routine, and not worth
paying someone high wages, also not worth the intern's time to do. 
However, if the intern is also given the opportunity to help with
other aspects of the project, then it's worth it to the intern to do
the grunt labor to get that opportunity.

Another example -- in the company where I work, we have an internship
program (paid); they do basic filing and copying, but are also
allowed to help out with organizing events and so on.

Real businesses make use of internships, both paid and unpaid.  It
all comes down to what you want the intern for, and what the intern
wants out of the job.  If you don't have a need for them in your
business, so be it.  But that doesn't mean they don't have a useful
purpose in the rest of the business world.

-- Mara



--- Lavolta Press <fran@lavoltapress.com> wrote:
> My paying freelancers is not a question of my "choosing" to pay
> them 
> because I have lots of spare cash to play with. When I hire someone
> I 
> expect them to have certain specialized professional skills and
> experience. 
> I require them to work under supervision, under contract, and to a 
> deadline. I screen and interview candidates very carefully, and
> choose the 
> best available. They, in turn, are doubtless interviewing with and 
> screening other potential employers. Probably no one with the
> skills I need 
> (from time to time) would work for me for free. And if they did
> want to, 
> for some reason, I wouldn't feel comfortable about placing the
> demands on 
> them that I do. I'm running a business, not a hobby.
(snip)

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From: "Lisa Sinervo" <lisa-list@threadneedlest.com>
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: A costumer's dream job?
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no problem, and no doubt Penny appreciates your contributions and would
likewise support you.  The advice goes not just for costuming but for all
careers, weeb design etc.  I think compensation comes in a variety of forms
but I'm a realist enough to know the world doesn't always see it that way so
I try to have one foot in both worlds.

good luck!

Lisa
----- Original Message -----
From: "Sharon Saracino" <shashy.rn@verizon.net>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2003 7:33 AM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: A costumer's dream job?


Hi Lisa,
Thanks for the insight and I do appreciate it.  I don't anticipate I will
ever have the option of costume as a full fledged career, (sadly)especially
not in the area where I live...the opportunity is just not there, so for me,
right now the learning experience is the thing.  I also have no doubt that
Penny would be more than willing to give me a reference in the event
something should come up in my area.  Bear in mind that my internship
involves not only "costume" per say, but also web dvelopment, research, etc.
and could be applicable in more than one area.  But again, I do truly
appreciate your advice and interest and will surely keep it in mind. Thanks
again!

Sharon

Granny's Closet...a Peek into the Past
http://www.grannyscloset.net

The Costume Gallery
(on staff)
http://www.costumegallery.com/
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: A costumer's dream job?
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> That is a problem with the schools out here in California.  They only 
> teach
> history of California starting with the 1850's.  But we have a much 
> longer
> history than just when the US stole California from Mexico.  The 
> pre-gold
> rush history is rich with intrusting people and clothing.  But it is 
> all
> sweep under the rug, because a lot of people don't want to face facts.

Hi Stephen,

That's exactly what I was trying to get at.  As a former 4th grader 
(that's when they teach the kids about California history), I was 
surprised to learn, by way of my culturally aware mother, that 
California had a rich relationship with Spain long before there was 
gold in them hills.  How else did the missions get here?  Duh... ;)

There's not too much interest on the surface in Native American history 
here either.  It's just one more token that's sort of tossed in to 
sound PC but never dealt with in any great length.  What I have 
noticed, being that my fiance is from a HUGE Latino farm worker family, 
is that there is a lot of cultural awareness heaped on our Mexican 
heritage more than there is with our Native American history.  This of 
course has to do with politics as much as cultural awareness... As the 
arts are always inevitably tied into politics in some way.  ;)

Sarah

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Mara Riley <corbiegirl@yahoo.com> wrote:

>I occasionally contemplate changing jobs, going back to school to get
>a degree in textile conservation or something.  But I'm probably more
>employable, and make more money, in the database management job I
>have now.  Sad...

Thinking about this whole thread...

I'd probably get frustrated having to be creative and sew endlessly, so a 
career designing costumes or sewing them would not last long. I enjoy 
research, but after a while that gets frustrating as well. OTOH, that 
research has to be presented *somewhere* in a manner that is accessible, 
and that is something that I probably *could* do for at least five to ten 
years before getting bored with it.

I know I've said to some folk that I am so burned out on the database 
industry that it's riduculous (and have nowhere to go careerwise if/when 
this place is closed down:  indexing is a dead-end job in a dead-end 
profession, and so is small-office computer support/LAN administration), 
but given the whole "dream" thing, I think I'd like to design, create the 
basic schema for, and probably enter at least a couple hundred records for, 
a worldwide database of clothing and costume information:  books, extant 
garments, extant fabrics, documents, media, etc. This database would 
include the probable dating of the information, the edition/version of each 
item that has been re-released, subfields in which to note dates and 
citation/A&I (abstracting and indexing) info for each newly-published 
speculation on a piece (and each time its information has been updated), 
where the item is located, its condition at each time it's been inspected, 
etc. The master computers housing the primary copy of this database would 
probably need to be housed at a university or some other large organization 
with a strong interest in textiles and costumes, though the database would 
need to be mirrored at several places worldwide. Ideally, it would be 
funded by grants from the industry and from wealthy donors, and available 
at several levels of access for different subscription fees (Just want to 
look at thumbnail pictures and where the pieces are? Cheap. Want to know 
the entire provenance? Pay more.// Just want to look at one medium? Cheap. 
Want to look at all media? More money.).

Unfortunately, by the time I would have finally entered a couple of hundred 
records entered in the system, I'd be burned out and ready to move on to 
something else...


Brenda
webwarren@earthlink.net


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----- Original Message ----- 
From: "N Kipar" <nicolas_fouquet@yahoo.com>

> Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give
it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgment.   ~
J.R.R. Tolkien

I know this is off topic, but I LOVE your tagline. It has to be my very
favourite quote of all Tolkien books, and one of my favourite quote  of all
books I've read.
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Wow,
Lots of interesting insite into how others think about the business.
(some of this is a little OT but explains how I view it all)

My studio is located in my home.  But I avoid calling it a home based business, simply for 
the reasons that Kathleen stated.  For some reason people perceive it as being a 
hobby/business.  The fact is though, since my overhead is lower, I make better money.  The 
down side is I never get away from work, and I never escape from home.  :D

About 3 years ago I made the decision to price my work according to what I wanted to make. 
  No compromises.  Yes there are people who do not wish to pay that, and I am fine with 
it.  They can go somewhere else.  When people ask me why something costs so much.  I ask 
them what they make in an hour, and why what they do costs so much?  This usually shuts 
them up.  I do not spend any time apologizing for the cost.  I simply say that we use 
quality items, gaurantee our work and replace something for free if there is a problem.

Amazingly, my dentist husband, gets the same questions... undervaluing a service is not 
just a costumers plight evidently.

I volunteered at our local renfest for years, as a costume person (along with Catherine 
from whom I learned a lot).  The only economic compensation was comp tickets if we wanted 
them.  I had a great time and used the experience as motivation to keep learning stuff on 
a daily basis.  I still volunteer my time with local community theatre, but am getting so 
busy it is getting hard to find the time.

I also have the occasional intern. The last one asked to intern with me, so she could 
learn how to create bodices and hats.  I did not pay her money, but she received an 
education.  Fair trade I think.

My husband is a volunteer at the dental school here once a week.  He supervises and 
teaches graduate dental students that are in an internship program at the dental school. 
The benefits for him... He has free access to the Medical Library and the staff for 
research, a fantastic parking spot, and can share his knowledge with others and be 
appreciated for it.  He also increases his learning curve by picking up on new 
technologies sooner than others not so involved.

My son also volunteers his time for free in theater and the art community.  Which drives 
his girlfriend nuts... she is one that believes volunteering for anything other than a 
charity is giving stuff away needlessly.

The point I think I am trying to make is, your outlook and how you perceive yourself 
informs others on how to view you.  I value what I do, whether it is for pay, or for free. 
  And I believe that I am valued by others because of that.
-- 
Linda Thompson

Attitude Is Everything
http://corsetsandcostumes.com


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From: Jacobson Dawn <dme_maud@pacbell.net>
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Penny wrote:

<<...I would have assumed that
California was very arts driven... am I wrong?...>>

Not exactly. California is very arts-driven, but the
entire area of the arts is extremely competitive. I
can speak only of Los Angeles and the SF Bay Area, as
those are the only 2 areas I've lived in, but I think
it holds true for most of the state.

For the most part, the arts in Southern California
revolve around performing arts and "The Industry."
While there are a great many opportunities for people
to work in the arts, the talent pool is large, deep,
and includes everyone from high school students to
seasoned Hollywood professionals. While the SF Bay
Area is less competitive, there also aren't as many
productions, and it's still close enough to L.A. that
productions can "pull" from Southern California for
the expertise they need.

Because the pool is so large, it's not difficult to
find people that will work for a credit line, simply
because it's something they can add to their resume.

I suspect NYC is the same (they just hide it better).

Dawn

=====
Dawn Jacobson
Vallejo, CA, USA

"Of course I recognize her. Who else would wear ruby slippers with those socks?"
          --Wicked Witch
                    "Wizard of Oz", Act 1, Scene 7
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        Cheeptrims sells to retail customers too.  If you buy enough to
look like a business they ask for information and give you wholesale
prices.  I don't buy enough, but figure their retail prices are way
better than most.  

Lalah
Never give up, Never surrender
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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Wed Apr 30 12:58:16 2003
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Costume business, internships, volunteering and value
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Nicely said, Linda. You experience is kin to mine overall.  It just took me
longer to draw my lines.  The first time I said "No" was empowering!
Kathleen
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Linda J. Thompson" <LindaJThompson@comcast.net>
To: <h-costume@net.indra.com>
Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2003 11:10 AM
Subject: [h-cost] Costume business, internships, volunteering and value


> Wow,
> Lots of interesting insite into how others think about the business.
> (some of this is a little OT but explains how I view it all)
>
> My studio is located in my home.  But I avoid calling it a home based
business, simply for
> the reasons that Kathleen stated.  For some reason people perceive it as
being a
> hobby/business.  The fact is though, since my overhead is lower, I make
better money.  The
> down side is I never get away from work, and I never escape from home.  :D
>
> About 3 years ago I made the decision to price my work according to what I
wanted to make.
>   No compromises.  Yes there are people who do not wish to pay that, and I
am fine with
> it.  They can go somewhere else.  When people ask me why something costs
so much.  I ask
> them what they make in an hour, and why what they do costs so much?  This
usually shuts
> them up.  I do not spend any time apologizing for the cost.  I simply say
that we use
> quality items, gaurantee our work and replace something for free if there
is a problem.
>
> Amazingly, my dentist husband, gets the same questions... undervaluing a
service is not
> just a costumers plight evidently.
>
> I volunteered at our local renfest for years, as a costume person (along
with Catherine
> from whom I learned a lot).  The only economic compensation was comp
tickets if we wanted
> them.  I had a great time and used the experience as motivation to keep
learning stuff on
> a daily basis.  I still volunteer my time with local community theatre,
but am getting so
> busy it is getting hard to find the time.
>
> I also have the occasional intern. The last one asked to intern with me,
so she could
> learn how to create bodices and hats.  I did not pay her money, but she
received an
> education.  Fair trade I think.
>
> My husband is a volunteer at the dental school here once a week.  He
supervises and
> teaches graduate dental students that are in an internship program at the
dental school.
> The benefits for him... He has free access to the Medical Library and the
staff for
> research, a fantastic parking spot, and can share his knowledge with
others and be
> appreciated for it.  He also increases his learning curve by picking up on
new
> technologies sooner than others not so involved.
>
> My son also volunteers his time for free in theater and the art community.
Which drives
> his girlfriend nuts... she is one that believes volunteering for anything
other than a
> charity is giving stuff away needlessly.
>
> The point I think I am trying to make is, your outlook and how you
perceive yourself
> informs others on how to view you.  I value what I do, whether it is for
pay, or for free.
>   And I believe that I am valued by others because of that.
> -- 
> Linda Thompson
>
> Attitude Is Everything
> http://corsetsandcostumes.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
>

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OK, I'll freely admit it--the only pay you'll get for
this hard work is lunch, my gratitude, and the egoboo
from seeing your work help a bunch of pretty nice kids
do a really big musical.

I'm scheduling a "sewing hell" for "Oz" on Saturday,
May 3, from 9:00 - approximately 3:00 p.m. It will be
at Hogan High School, 850 Rosewood St., Vallejo. You
need to bring your own portable sewing machine and a
pair of scissors; I'll supply everything else,
including fabric, thread, designs, trims, etc. I
particularly need people that know serious sewing, as
I've got 14 gold and black Cossack-style coats to
build for the Winkies.

If you can make it, please contact me off-list so I
can give you directions.

Thanks a bunch in advance.

Dawn



=====
Dawn Jacobson
Vallejo, CA, USA

"Of course I recognize her. Who else would wear ruby slippers with those socks?"
          --Wicked Witch
                    "Wizard of Oz", Act 1, Scene 7
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>> The point I think I am trying to make is, your outlook and how you
perceive yourself
> informs others on how to view you.  I value what I do, whether it is for
pay, or for free.
>   And I believe that I am valued by others because of that.


Very well said, Linda....I agree 100%!!~

Sharon

Granny's Closet...a Peek into the Past
http://www.grannyscloset.net

The Costume Gallery
(on staff)
http://www.costumegallery.com/
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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Lavolta Press <fran@lavoltapress.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: A costumer's dream job?
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Sorry, since you accused me of starting a flame war I thought you _were_ 
talking to me.

Fran

At 02:21 AM 4/30/2003 -0400, you wrote:
>Fran,
>
>I wasn't even talking to you... give it a rest!
>
>Penny Ladnier
>Owner, The Costume Gallery & Costume Classroom
>http://www.costumegallery.com
>http://www.costumeclassroom.com
>http://www.onlinecostumeball.com
>----- Original Message -----

Lavolta Press Books on Historic Costuming
http://www.lavoltapress.com
Historic and Vintage Dance
http://www.lavoltapress.com/dance 


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In a message dated 4/30/2003 6:13:05 AM Pacific Standard Time, 
mooncat@in-tch.com writes:


> I think it may be a combination of lack of awareness and indifference,
> myself.  Here in Montana, we have much of the same sort of history that
> you do in California, although we don't have any of that marvelous
> Spanish/Mexican history.  I mostly remember Montana history in high
> school as being all about mining and fur traders and Indian massacres. 
> I was well into a college degree before I discovered some of the
> pre-Gold Rush history of the Pacific Northwest that *is* available.
> --sue

But how are we supposed to change that?  One thing I hated as a History Major 
was that you were required to have a major interest and two minor interests 
to graduate.  But you couldn't pick Major: European History through the 
Renaissance, Minor: US History through WW2 and then Minor: California.  It 
had to be Major: European History through the Renaissance, Minor: Asia Minor: 
Latin America or something similar.  (At least here in California)  I found 
it rathr upsetting because the only time I got to study California History 
and get credit for it, was when I was in the 4th grade and it was required.  
Not to mention never having a chance to study the history of Alaska, Hawaii, 
Texas, Arizona, Montana ... etc.  I found it very frustrating!  But that is 
enough for my off topic rant.

Kit

If you walk a mile in someone else's shoes, do you get to keep them? - 
Kenneth Cole
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In a message dated 4/30/2003 7:55:08 AM Pacific Standard Time, 
sarah@elizabethanlady.com writes:


> That's exactly what I was trying to get at.  As a former 4th grader 
> (that's when they teach the kids about California history), I was 
> surprised to learn, by way of my culturally aware mother, that 
> California had a rich relationship with Spain long before there was 
> gold in them hills.  How else did the missions get here?  Duh... ;)
> 
> There's not too much interest on the surface in Native American history 
> here either.  It's just one more token that's sort of tossed in to 
> sound PC but never dealt with in any great length.  What I have 
> noticed, being that my fiance is from a HUGE Latino farm worker family, 
> is that there is a lot of cultural awareness heaped on our Mexican 
> heritage more than there is with our Native American history.  This of 
> course has to do with politics as much as cultural awareness... As the 
> arts are always inevitably tied into politics in some way.  ;)

Acutally, in my case it was different.  Maybe I lucked out, but we didn't 
even start on the Goldrush until the 2nd semester when I took that class.  
The missions were very important in my study of Cali History.  Not to mention 
studying the Chumash Indians before Serra came through and distroyed their 
way of life.

Kit

If you walk a mile in someone else's shoes, do you get to keep them? - 
Kenneth Cole
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From: Lavolta Press <fran@lavoltapress.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Internships, was Re: A costumer's dream job?
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At 07:34 AM 4/30/2003 -0700, you wrote:
>Fran,
>If I understand the unpaid internship thing (would have to go back
>and read old posts for the specifics), it's actually a fairly common
>practice for college students, etc., to take paid or unpaid
>internships in a field in which they're interested in order to get
>their foot in the door and learn the business from the ground up.

If you want unexperienced trainees, that's an option.  My point is I need 
experienced employees, and they don't work for free.  Nor do I want them to.

Fran



Lavolta Press Books on Historic Costuming
http://www.lavoltapress.com
Historic and Vintage Dance
http://www.lavoltapress.com/dance 


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In a message dated 4/29/2003 9:25:16 PM Pacific Standard Time, 
penny@costumegallery.com writes:


> As I said before, tomorrow we are turning the Gallery's Library over to a
> pay site.  Then you will start to see all of our hard work of the interns,
> review committee, and our staff.  Our goal is to make the Library the
> largest online costuming resource with actual articles and images from the
> periods represented.  I have literally thousands of articles and images to
> go online.  I am also publishing my color names documentation through the
> library.  As the Library starts to generate sufficient funds, we will hope
> to hire the best from our intern pool.  I hope at that time to begin
> purchasing the higher end publications from pre-1800 to put online in the
> Library.
> 

I am sorry if I have missed this.  But how much are you planning to charge?  
How is one going to be expected to pay?  That sort of thing.

Kit

If you walk a mile in someone else's shoes, do you get to keep them? - 
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>If you want unexperienced trainees, that's an option. My point is I need experienced employees, and they don't work for free.  Nor do I want them to.

I don't believe anyone mentioned that I, or anyone else, am an inexperienced trainee...simply that the degree or type of experience may be different from what is being gained by an internship.  And again, at the risk of repeating myself, "free" is a relative term.  If one only understands "value" in terms of monetary reward, I can understand that being paid in the traditional sense is important, and I have no quarrel with that.  I guess my perception of value is just a little different.

Sharon

Granny's Closet...a Peek into the Past
http://www.grannyscloset.net

The Costume Gallery
(on staff)
http://www.costumegallery.com/
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Apparently there's another modern-people-in-period-setting reality series
going on right now on PBS. I've missed it so far; I may try to catch the
end. It's set in Edwardian England; that's all I know. (Usually there's
enough discussion on this list to clue me in to these, but I think so far
no one's mentioned this one.)

--Robin


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From: Jacobson Dawn <dme_maud@pacbell.net>
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Mel wrote:

<<Have any of you tried this before ? Do you think an
online auction such 
as
ebay or a live auction would be better ? Any ideas on
how to publicise 
this
?>>

Mel--

Sorry if somebody else has already answered this. 

We've used a "dual auction" system for the California
Preservation Foundation for the past 20 years, and
it's been pretty successful. The smaller/less
valuable/less "flashy" items are auctioned off via a
silent auction (the electronic equivalent would be
eBay) and the really flashy, big-ticket items are
auctioned off during a live auction held at a gala
dinner. The auction usually raises $25,000-$30,000 for
the charity.

Dawn

=====
Dawn Jacobson
Vallejo, CA, USA

"Of course I recognize her. Who else would wear ruby slippers with those socks?"
          --Wicked Witch
                    "Wizard of Oz", Act 1, Scene 7
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Manor House
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> Apparently there's another modern-people-in-period-setting reality 
> series
> going on right now on PBS. I've missed it so far; I may try to catch 
> the
> end. It's set in Edwardian England; that's all I know. (Usually there's
> enough discussion on this list to clue me in to these, but I think so 
> far
> no one's mentioned this one.)

I'm surprised no one mentioned it.  It's "Manor House" on PBS.  In my 
area, they're showing the final two installments tonight.  I've found 
it the best "reality history" series so far... Way better than either 
"1900 House" and "Frontier House", probably because they've got actual 
rules and guidelines to set them up, rather than just tossing a bunch 
of 21st century people into these roles without any idea of what 
they're supposed to do (ie. there's a lot less "whining" going on than 
in the previous two series).  Of course, the kids on the serving staff 
are having issues with the crappy living standards of servants in 
Edwardian England, but that's expected.  And the costumes are lovely. :)

Sarah

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From: Drea Leed <drea@nospam>
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Manor House
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>
> I'm surprised no one mentioned it.  It's "Manor House" on PBS.  In my
> area, they're showing the final two installments tonight.  I've found
> it the best "reality history" series so far... Way better than either
> "1900 House" and "Frontier House", probably because they've got actual
> rules and guidelines to set them up, rather than just tossing a bunch
> of 21st century people into these roles without any idea of what
> they're supposed to do (ie. there's a lot less "whining" going on than
> in the previous two series).  Of course, the kids on the serving staff
> are having issues with the crappy living standards of servants in
> Edwardian England, but that's expected.  And the costumes are lovely. :)
>

Yup.  I found it entertaining that two scullery maids quit in the episodes
I saw, because the work was "too hard." Really gives us a great
perspective on the crappy jobs our foremothers had to put up with...

Drea


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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Wed Apr 30 14:00:09 2003
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From: Gia_Gavino@attbi.com
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Manor House
Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 17:58:35 +0000
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Hi!  Yep, another one.

I caught about 1 1/2 hour of it last night.  I did enjoy looking at the 
costumes, and hear about the strict codes of conduct and about how the societal 
strata was so rigidly adhered to.

However, the incessant complaining of the people, from the all the folks on 
each of the 'stairs', about the 'rules' was off-putting.  I think I would have 
enjoyed it better if the participants were folks that knew a little about what 
they are doing, and talk about those aspects, so the viewers could get a deeper 
appreciation for the efforts it took in those times.

The Narrator is quite good, with the comments of the differences between 
Edwardian period and now.  And the romantic complications 'below stairs' is 
making this interesting, too.  Getting to see the how this situation was 
handled (or will be handled in this series) is intriguing.

Happt Stitches!
Gia/Giacinta

  
> 
> Apparently there's another modern-people-in-period-setting reality series
> going on right now on PBS. I've missed it so far; I may try to catch the
> end. It's set in Edwardian England; that's all I know. (Usually there's
> enough discussion on this list to clue me in to these, but I think so far
> no one's mentioned this one.)
> 
> --Robin
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
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In a message dated 4/30/2003 12:53:50 PM Central Standard Time, 
drea@nospam writes:

> >
> >I'm surprised no one mentioned it.  It's "Manor House" on PBS.  In my
> >area, they're showing the final two installments tonight.  I've found
> >it the best "reality history" series so far... Way better than either
> >"1900 House" and "Frontier House", probably because they've got actual
> >rules and guidelines to set them up, rather than just tossing a bunch
> >of 21st century people into these roles without any idea of what
> >they're supposed to do (ie. there's a lot less "whining" going on than
> >in the previous two series).  Of course, the kids on the serving staff
> >are having issues with the crappy living standards of servants in
> >Edwardian England, but that's expected.  And the costumes are lovely. :)
> >
> 
> Yup.  I found it entertaining that two scullery maids quit in the episodes
> I saw, because the work was "too hard." Really gives us a great
> perspective on the crappy jobs our foremothers had to put up with...
> 

*&$%#@!! Dish Network/Cincinnati! I hunted and hunted for Manor House on the 
gazillion PBS stations (and the Manor House PBS website) and couldn't find it 
here on our local affiliates. I don't suppose anyone here is local to 
Cincinnati and knows where the heck Manor House is? 

Sarra Wryght
http://www.livejournal.com/users/loreleisedai/
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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Wed Apr 30 14:15:02 2003
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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Lavolta Press <fran@lavoltapress.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Internships, was Re: A costumer's dream job?
In-Reply-To: <00df01c30f42$da1e8fc0$6501a8c0@sharon>
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>
>I don't believe anyone mentioned that I, or anyone else, am an 
>inexperienced trainee...simply that the degree or type of experience may 
>be different from what is being gained by an internship.  And again, at 
>the risk of repeating myself, "free" is a relative term.  If one only 
>understands "value" in terms of monetary reward, I can understand that 
>being paid in the traditional sense is important, and I have no quarrel 
>with that.  I guess my perception of value is just a little different.

Of course I meant experience in the internship field.  And if you're 
accusing me of valuing nothing but money--what I'm talking about is what _I 
pay other people_ in return for their work.  They're hardly paying 
me!  Though I don't think they're at all mercenary for wanting fair payment 
in return for years of previous experience and the hard work they do for me.

Fran





>Sharon
>
>Granny's Closet...a Peek into the Past
>http://www.grannyscloset.net
>
>The Costume Gallery
>(on staff)
>http://www.costumegallery.com/
>_______________________________________________
>h-costume mailing list
>h-costume@mail.indra.com
>http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

Lavolta Press Books on Historic Costuming
http://www.lavoltapress.com
Historic and Vintage Dance
http://www.lavoltapress.com/dance 


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From: Ron Carnegie <r.carnegie@verizon.net>
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: Re: [h-cost] Re: A costumer's dream job?
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> 
> From: Kitsune242@aol.com
> Date: 2003/04/30 Wed PM 01:19:35 EDT
> To: h-costume@indra.com
> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: A costumer's dream job?
> 
> In a message dated 4/30/2003 7:55:08 AM Pacific Standard Time, 
> sarah@elizabethanlady.com writes:
> 
> 
> > That's exactly what I was trying to get at.  As a former 4th grader 
> > (that's when they teach the kids about California history), I was 
> > surprised to learn, by way of my culturally aware mother, that 
> > California had a rich relationship with Spain long before there was 
> > gold in them hills.  How else did the missions get here?  Duh... ;)
> > 
> > There's not too much interest on the surface in Native American history 
> > here either.  It's just one more token that's sort of tossed in to 
> > sound PC but never dealt with in any great length.  What I have 
> > noticed, being that my fiance is from a HUGE Latino farm worker family, 
> > is that there is a lot of cultural awareness heaped on our Mexican 
> > heritage more than there is with our Native American history.  This of 
> > course has to do with politics as much as cultural awareness... As the 
> > arts are always inevitably tied into politics in some way.  ;)
> 
> Acutally, in my case it was different.  Maybe I lucked out, but we didn't 
> even start on the Goldrush until the 2nd semester when I took that class.  
> The missions were very important in my study of Cali History.  Not to mention 
> studying the Chumash Indians before Serra came through and distroyed their 
> way of life.
> 
> Kit
> 
> If you walk a mile in someone else's shoes, do you get to keep them? - 
> Kenneth Cole

   This is interesting.  I was taught very little about the California Indians, and their cultures were all wrapped up into one pan-californian goulash.  We spent a lot opf time on Spanish California however, and the Spanish explorers or other parts of what would become the United States.  They way we were taught this all ended with the Mexican revolution and then nothing happened untill the Bear Flag revolt!

I remain,
Ron

R.Carnegie@verizon.net
"Argue for your limitations, and they are yours."
             R. Bach

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Subject: Re: [h-cost] A costumer's dream career?
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At 9:47 PM -0400 4/29/03, Catherine Olanich Raymond wrote:
>On Tuesday 29 April 2003 02:13 pm, Kimiko Small wrote:
>>  At 02:22 PM 4/29/2003 +0200, you wrote:
>>  >I have been asked to make theatre costumes but they expected me to work
>>  >for free.
>>
>>  Why do people expect us to give of our talents and abilities for free? That
>>  is one thing I have seen over and over in the ren faire groups I work with,
>>  that the ladies are to dress everyone in their guild for free. Don't they
>>  realize that our abilities take time to master and that our time is as
>>  valuable as theirs?
>>
>>  Do programmers (which my hubby is one) work for free? Do consultants work
>>  for free? Do sports people work for free? Why then are seamstresses/tailors
>>  expected to work for free, or even cheap?
>
>Look, people always expect to get free benefits from friends and
>acquaintances.  That's why lawyers and doctors have to learn to deal with
>annoying requests for free legal/medical advice at cocktail parties and the
>like.  It's not just professional costumers.  Really it isn't!  :-)

On the other hand, there are some professions that are less likely to 
attract this sort of request.  I don't recall my father ever being 
importuned for chemistry lectures at parties!

Heather
-- 
*****
Heather Rose Jones
hrjones@socrates.berkeley.edu
*****
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] OT: How to get cigarette smell out of books?
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In a message dated 4/30/2003 1:28:24 PM Central Standard Time, 
jen@netdefender.com writes:

> The recent thread on finding a copy of Herald's _Renaissance Dress_ 
> book reminded me of an issue I have with a used book I picked up some 
> time back, which smells of cigarette smoke.  Is there any way to take 
> the smell out?  I have tried leaving it out in the open to air, which 
> seems to remove it for a time, but it always comes back.  Any 
> suggestions?
> 

Here's what I've done with some success. Take a ziplock freezer bag that the 
book will fit in, liberally shake baking soda all over the book and in it's 
pages, stick the bag with the book in it into the freezer for a week, take 
out the book and dust it off really good...smell B gone!

Sarra Wryght
http://www.livejournal.com/users/loreleisedai/
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The recent thread on finding a copy of Herald's _Renaissance Dress_ 
book reminded me of an issue I have with a used book I picked up some 
time back, which smells of cigarette smoke.  Is there any way to take 
the smell out?  I have tried leaving it out in the open to air, which 
seems to remove it for a time, but it always comes back.  Any 
suggestions?

Thanks!

--Jen

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From: "Lloyd Mitchell" <rmitchell@washjeff.edu>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
References: <200304301758.h3UHwl2i029125@net.indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Manor House
Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 14:49:51 -0400
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I too came in on the second segment last eve, and missed the first of the
series altogether, but I formed an impression that the Family were somewhat
upper crust in real life.  Therefore their frustration at having to hold to
the standards of a former life style were especially telling of how Times
have changed. The presentation of the perfectly roasted boars head and
having to endure eating a slice of the cheek was especially riviting. If
they weren't already vegetarians, that might have done it. Some referances
had already been made regarding the instructions to the chef about dishing
more healthy (2003) fare, re creams and gravies. The poor butler who
evidently is responsible for the manner and deportment of the whole
household really took the silent reproof for the meal to heart.  He
evidently could have disuaded the chef from preparing such a speclicle.
Kathleen                                                                    
                                                                            
                                                                            
                                                                            
                                                                            
                                                                            
                               ----- Original Message ----- 
From: <Gia_Gavino@attbi.com>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2003 1:58 PM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Manor House


> Hi!  Yep, another one.
>
> I caught about 1 1/2 hour of it last night.  I did enjoy looking at the
> costumes, and hear about the strict codes of conduct and about how the
societal
> strata was so rigidly adhered to.
>
> However, the incessant complaining of the people, from the all the folks
on
> each of the 'stairs', about the 'rules' was off-putting.  I think I would
have
> enjoyed it better if the participants were folks that knew a little about
what
> they are doing, and talk about those aspects, so the viewers could get a
deeper
> appreciation for the efforts it took in those times.
>
> The Narrator is quite good, with the comments of the differences between
> Edwardian period and now.  And the romantic complications 'below stairs'
is
> making this interesting, too.  Getting to see the how this situation was
> handled (or will be handled in this series) is intriguing.
>
> Happt Stitches!
> Gia/Giacinta
>
>
> >
> > Apparently there's another modern-people-in-period-setting reality
series
> > going on right now on PBS. I've missed it so far; I may try to catch the
> > end. It's set in Edwardian England; that's all I know. (Usually there's
> > enough discussion on this list to clue me in to these, but I think so
far
> > no one's mentioned this one.)
> >
> > --Robin
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > h-costume mailing list
> > h-costume@mail.indra.com
> > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
>
> _______________________________________________
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>

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Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 12:47:52 -0600
From: Elizabeth Lear <eliz@indra.com>
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Manor House
Message-ID: <20030430184751.GA1135@net.indra.com>
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BTW, my local PBS stations appear to be repeating the episodes
basically every-other night for the next week.

							...eliz

-- 
Please allow 8-12 weeks for delivery.


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From: "Joan Broneske" <unicorn@softcom.net>
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	<00be01c30ee4$d7ea6160$820377d8@w7m1l6>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: A costumer's dream job?
Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 11:50:13 -0700
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Well, you probably won't have to worry about that too much longer, since
Mexico is slowly but surely taking it back.


                  ,%%%,
             --==% `%%%,
                 |' )`%%,
                 \_/\ @%%,
                   __@@" %%%--"""-.%,
                  /`__|             \%%
                  \\  \   /   |     /'%,
                   \]  | /----'.   < `%,
Joan Broneske          ||       `>> >
unicorn@softcom.net    ||       ///`
                       /(      //(
----- Original Message -----
From: "Stephen Bergdahl" <madlystitching@earthlink.net>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2003 11:50 PM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: A costumer's dream job?


>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Sarah" <sarah@elizabethanlady.com>
> To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2003 7:09 PM
> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: A costumer's dream job?
>
>
>  I can see Regency and 18th century
> > reenactment being a bigger priority on the East Coast, which has a
> > personal history that dates back that far.  Whereas most people in
> > California only know that things started to get going around the
> > 1850's, so the personal interest in reenacting groups is more focused
> > on the last 150 years or so.
> >
>
> That is a problem with the schools out here in California.  They only
teach
> history of California starting with the 1850's.  But we have a much longer
> history than just when the US stole California from Mexico.  The pre-gold
> rush history is rich with intrusting people and clothing.  But it is all
> sweep under the rug, because a lot of people don't want to face facts.
>
> Stephen - On his soap box.
>
> _______________________________________________
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>


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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Internships, was Re: A costumer's dream job?
Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 15:20:37 -0400
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>And if you're 
accusing me of valuing nothing but money

Fran,
I don't believe I made any accusation of any kind toward anyone at all!  I was simply giving my opinion on what I consider in terms of value or reimbursement.  As I said,  I think it's all relative and depends on the circumstances.  I certainly don't think that anyone wanting or expecting to be paid for their work is "mercenary".  I don't think there is a right or wrong answer to the reimbursement question...it depends on what works for those involved in each instance. But neither do I think that the work done by those not "paid" in the traditional sense is any less valid or valuable simply because their motives may other than for monetary advancement. I think I've now said about enough on the subject...as in anything else, everyone is entitled to their opinion....that doesn't make one more valid than another.

Sharon

Granny's Closet...a Peek into the Past
http://www.grannyscloset.net

The Costume Gallery
(on staff)
http://www.costumegallery.com/
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Subject: RE: [h-cost] OT: How to get cigarette smell out of books?
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How about fabric softener dryer sheets put between the pages? You might
sandwich them between two plain pieces of paper just in case they might
leave residue on the book...

Talia

-----Original Message-----
From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com]On
Behalf Of Jennifer Loggans
Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2003 1:21 PM
To: Historical Costume
Subject: [h-cost] OT: How to get cigarette smell out of books?


The recent thread on finding a copy of Herald's _Renaissance Dress_
book reminded me of an issue I have with a used book I picked up some
time back, which smells of cigarette smoke.  Is there any way to take
the smell out?  I have tried leaving it out in the open to air, which
seems to remove it for a time, but it always comes back.  Any
suggestions?

Thanks!

--Jen

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I'm sorry to have missed this series and hope they will rerun it...right now our PBS station is running its annual auction for station support and are showing a lot of re-runs from the past season....will have to watch for this!

Sharon

Granny's Closet...a Peek into the Past
http://www.grannyscloset.net

The Costume Gallery
(on staff)
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: A costumer's dream job?
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> Well, you probably won't have to worry about that too much longer, 
> since
> Mexico is slowly but surely taking it back.

Er... Not so sure I understand what you're implying.  Mexico and 
California have never had a vast division in terms of business, esp. 
agriculture.  Many "Mexicans" here in Cali. are as Californian as I am 
(over eight generations were Californian born on my dad's side of the 
family.  My fiance, whose father's side is "Mexican" have been here for 
just as long, although their first language is Spanish).  I'm quite 
proud of my state's ties to Mexico, both territorially and culturally.

Sarah

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Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 12:19:46 -0700
From: Kimiko Small <kimiko@kimiko1.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] OT: How to get cigarette smell out of books?
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At 02:21 PM 4/30/2003 -0400, you wrote:
>The recent thread on finding a copy of Herald's _Renaissance Dress_ book 
>reminded me of an issue I have with a used book I picked up some time 
>back, which smells of cigarette smoke.  Is there any way to take the smell 
>out?  I have tried leaving it out in the open to air, which seems to 
>remove it for a time, but it always comes back.  Any suggestions?
>
>Thanks!
>
>--Jen


Charcoal is a good remover of bad smells. Not sure how to work it with the 
book, so there aren't smudges. Maybe the small kind for use in fish tanks 
might work.

Kimiko



Kimiko Small
Costumer, Fiber Artist, Web Designer, Wife and Mother
kimiko@kimiko1.com; http://www.kimiko1.com

Graphic Intern at Costume Gallery
http://www.costumegallery.com

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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: A costumer's dream job?
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Hell as far as I am concerned they can have the southern part of the state
back.  It's only good for fabric, and someplace to send our waste water.

Stephen

----- Original Message -----
From: "Joan Broneske" <unicorn@softcom.net>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2003 11:50 AM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: A costumer's dream job?


> Well, you probably won't have to worry about that too much longer, since
> Mexico is slowly but surely taking it back.
>
>
>                   ,%%%,
>              --==% `%%%,
>                  |' )`%%,
>                  \_/\ @%%,
>                    __@@" %%%--"""-.%,
>                   /`__|             \%%
>                   \\  \   /   |     /'%,
>                    \]  | /----'.   < `%,
> Joan Broneske          ||       `>> >
> unicorn@softcom.net    ||       ///`
>                        /(      //(
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Stephen Bergdahl" <madlystitching@earthlink.net>
> To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2003 11:50 PM
> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: A costumer's dream job?
>
>
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Sarah" <sarah@elizabethanlady.com>
> > To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
> > Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2003 7:09 PM
> > Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: A costumer's dream job?
> >
> >
> >  I can see Regency and 18th century
> > > reenactment being a bigger priority on the East Coast, which has a
> > > personal history that dates back that far.  Whereas most people in
> > > California only know that things started to get going around the
> > > 1850's, so the personal interest in reenacting groups is more focused
> > > on the last 150 years or so.
> > >
> >
> > That is a problem with the schools out here in California.  They only
> teach
> > history of California starting with the 1850's.  But we have a much
longer
> > history than just when the US stole California from Mexico.  The
pre-gold
> > rush history is rich with intrusting people and clothing.  But it is all
> > sweep under the rug, because a lot of people don't want to face facts.
> >
> > Stephen - On his soap box.
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > h-costume mailing list
> > h-costume@mail.indra.com
> > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
> >
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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I did notice a lot of whining from everyone, but I agree that it seems 
that nearly all the younger servants seem to have gone in with no idea 
what they were getting into.  I did notice in the intro that most of 
them were part-time employed before - maybe just not used to working? 
The scullery maid who was from a farm environment seemed to handle it 
better - until she fell for the hall-boy, that is.

I think they would not have been able to get people who "knew what they 
were getting into" very easily - how many of us can just drop our jobs 
and paychecks for three months to do something like this? (It is 
stressed that they were "volunteers").  I would love to try something 
like this, and I think I could take it if I looked at it like an acting 
excercise AND I knew it was for only three months.  Even as First 
Housemaid, however, the sheer amount of dust would probably send me into 
asthmatic shock in about three days.

I found the end of episode 4 very interesting, where the "lady"'s sister 
gets sent off by a doctor on holiday because she is so stressed out from 
not being allowed to do anything or be anything.  It really lets you in 
to the headspace of the era.  The Lord seems to be taking to it quite 
easily, and getting pompous and insensitive as a result.  Many of the 
Family said that the extreme formality, and the fact that no one ever 
really talks to each other is putting increasing distance on their 
presonal relationships, which are getting "strage" as they put it.  Veyr 
enlightening.

Wendy Z
Chicago

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Subject: [h-cost] "Manor House" tapes
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I will try and tape the whole shebang when they re-broadcast it at 1 Am 
on Friday.  If it works, I'd be willing to set up a tape tree.

Wendy Z
Chicago

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	Wed, 30 Apr 2003 11:48:27 PDT
Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 11:48:27 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jacobson Dawn <dme_maud@pacbell.net>
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Kit wrote:

<<But how are we supposed to change that?  One thing I
hated as a History 
Major 
was that you were required to have a major interest
and two minor 
interests 
to graduate.  But you couldn't pick Major: European
History through the 
Renaissance, Minor: US History through WW2 and then
Minor: California.  
It 
had to be Major: European History through the
Renaissance, Minor: Asia 
Minor: 
Latin America or something similar.  (At least here in
California)  I 
found 
it rathr upsetting because the only time I got to
study California 
History 
and get credit for it, was when I was in the 4th grade
and it was 
required....>> 

Simple: You talk to your academic advisor, present a
sound defense for not following the standard course of
study outlined in your catalog, and then get it in
writing that the changes to your program are OK. I did
that, and had US History to WWII as my major and CA
history and archival studies as my minor areas of
study. The sheepskin simply says "Bachelor of Arts in
History."

OCC: I found an old sketchbook of designs from the
late '70s recently, and my designs are much stronger
now than 20+ years ago. I think all that time hanging
around the university (10 years) paid off. ;-)

Dawn
(CSUN, Class of '84)
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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Wed Apr 30 15:55:56 2003
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From: Vicki Lamb <vlamb@cds.duke.edu>
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Subject: [h-cost] Sleeve construction for GFD
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Hello--my name is Vicki and I'm a lurker. I've been lurking for almost a 
year now, and have decided to jump in and ask for costuming help!

I'm working on a gothic fitted dress following Robin's suggestions from 
the list and notes on her web site. The gown is constructed of medium 
blue lightweight wool lined in black medium weight linen. With the help 
of a friend (who is subscribed to this list--Hi Nancy!) we did four 
fittings in muslin to get the pattern just right. When I constructed the 
body I first joined the front and back lining pieces at the shoulder 
seams, and did the same for the outer fabric. Then I sewed the lining to 
the wool along the neckline and down both sides of the front opening. I 
next hand-sewed the buttonholes (19!) and attached the corresponding 
metal shank buttons on the edge of the fabric as shown in the MoL book. 
Then I buttoned it up and Nancy pinned and marked the sides of the 
lining to get a snug supportive fit from the armscye to the hipline. 
After I stitched that up she pinned/marked the wool and I sewed those 
seams. This probably isn't the authentic way to construct it, but the 
fit is fabulous and there were no adjustments needed to the buttoned 
edge--which is nice and straight. I've added the gores and finished all 
the seams, etc.

Now on to the sleeves and my question! I have done muslin mockups for 
the sleeves and have a workable pattern for them. I plan to have buttons 
from the wrist to the elbow. I am writing to ask for help regarding 
suggestions on how to construct each sleeve with the two pieces. Should I:
-use the lining and wool as one piece and sew the sleeve seam from the 
shoulder to the elbow
-then stitch the lining to the wool for the buttonhole and the button edges
-put in the buttonholes and buttons
-then stitch the lining to the wool at the wrist when I am sure about 
the finished sleeve length
Or is there a better or more authentic way to do this? Any help or 
suggestions would be greatly appreciated! I've been sewing and doing 
needlework for years, but am rather new to costuming.

Thanks!
Vicki


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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Wed Apr 30 15:56:51 2003
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	Wed, 30 Apr 2003 12:55:28 PDT
Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 12:55:28 -0700 (PDT)
From: Lil Sorepaws <sorepaws@yahoo.com>
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Subject: [h-cost] OT A robinhood Convention looking for costumers etc ..
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Hi there, just got this through one of my SCA lists and thought it may
interest a few of you in the SE Michigan or midwest area ...

Weekend in Sherwood, the Spirit of Sherwood RoS convention

Spirit of Sherwood organises an annual three-days RoS con 
called 'Weekend in Sherwood' in Michigan, USA. The next one, Weekend 
in Sherwood VIII, will be held Fri-Sun July 4-6, 2003 at the Holiday 
Inn in Farmington Hills (a suburb of Detroit), Michigan, USA. 

We will be looking for fan panellists, filkers, "archers", costumers, 
artists, dealers, volunteers (gofers), and some staff positions! 

http://dutepp0.et.tudelft.nl/~tirza/RoS/

Have fun ;)

- Lil (I love a good looking man in tights ;)

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From: "Beteena Paradise" <bkessinger@ureach.com>
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] "Manor House" tapes
Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 15:54:40 -0400
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I also found out about this series this week. Are they going to be
rebroadcasting the entire series this Friday?

----- Original Message -----
From: "zski" <zski@ripco.com>
To: <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2003 3:39 PM
Subject: [h-cost] "Manor House" tapes


> I will try and tape the whole shebang when they re-broadcast it at 1 Am
> on Friday.  If it works, I'd be willing to set up a tape tree.
>
> Wendy Z
> Chicago
>
> _______________________________________________
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> h-costume@mail.indra.com
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>

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Subject: Re: [h-cost] OT: How to get cigarette smell out of books?
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>
>Charcoal is a good remover of bad smells. Not sure how to work it with the 
>book, so there aren't smudges. Maybe the small kind for use in fish tanks 
>might work.
>
>Kimiko
>
>I would think if you sealed the book, open if possible, into a plastic 
>container with the charcoal not touching and leave it there for a while.  
>Wouldn't that leach the smell like baking soda without contact?

Jennifer

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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Manor House
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> I did notice a lot of whining from everyone, but I agree that it seems 
> that nearly all the younger servants seem to have gone in with no idea 
> what they were getting into.  I did notice in the intro that most of 
> them were part-time employed before - maybe just not used to working? 
> The scullery maid who was from a farm environment seemed to handle it 
> better - until she fell for the hall-boy, that is.

I think there's a lot less whining compared to "1900 House" and 
"Frontier House", honestly.  However, I think there's definitely some 
discipline problems with the kids in the serving staff.  That hall boy 
is just a git.  I can't stand him, his shifty little eyes... Yech.  
Now, the first footman, however, is totally yummy.  Strong, silent, a 
total knockout in that uniform... ;)

> I think they would not have been able to get people who "knew what 
> they were getting into" very easily - how many of us can just drop our 
> jobs and paychecks for three months to do something like this? (It is 
> stressed that they were "volunteers").  I would love to try something 
> like this, and I think I could take it if I looked at it like an 
> acting excercise AND I knew it was for only three months.  Even as 
> First Housemaid, however, the sheer amount of dust would probably send 
> me into asthmatic shock in about three days.

I actually think the majority of the staff went in knowing they'd be up 
for a challenge, but had a really hard time giving up their basic human 
rights that they figured were 100% guaranteed.  Most of them, 
particularly the females, really did not understand that they were not 
going to be allowed any of the freedoms they take for granted now, such 
as weekends, free speech, decent working conditions, etc.  The only 
ones who seemed utterly clueless were the first two of the scullery 
maids who absolutely could not cope with *anything*.  The third one 
seemed like a smart girl until she got all gooey over the nasty hall 
boy creature.

> I found the end of episode 4 very interesting, where the "lady"'s 
> sister gets sent off by a doctor on holiday because she is so stressed 
> out from not being allowed to do anything or be anything.  It really 
> lets you in to the headspace of the era.  The Lord seems to be taking 
> to it quite easily, and getting pompous and insensitive as a result.  
> Many of the Family said that the extreme formality, and the fact that 
> no one ever really talks to each other is putting increasing distance 
> on their presonal relationships, which are getting "strage" as they 
> put it.  Veyr enlightening.

I think Sir John is totally clueless.  This is a world that was totally 
set up to cater directly to him and he's absolutely oblivious to the 
pain that's going on with the staff and even his own family.  I don't 
think he's a bad guy in the least... He just illustrates how blind a 
person can become when they are basically allowed all the freedom in 
the world at the expense of others.  I think Milady is at least a 
little more concerned with the feelings of the staff and her children, 
but even she's a little blinded by the pampering and primping.  Master 
Guy, the 10 year old, is absolutely adorable, and he's the one who is 
the most perceptive of the bunch, as he can move freely between the 
upstairs and the downstairs and while he's not really aware of the 
hardships of the staff, he at least has a better idea of both worlds.

And I definitely think the butler takes everything far too personally...

Looking forward to tonight's conclusion!

Sarah

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Subject: [h-cost] Manor House
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I caught this on cable from a neighboring city since our local PBS is
also in the middle of their annual auction.  It is a hoot!  I don't know
if the casting was deliberate but some of the younger kids that were
cast as the lower servants seemed to have had absolutely no idea of what
they were getting into.  You knew the first scullery maid wasn't going
to make it when she talked about how she was used to sleeping late and
having her mother fix her dinner.  To give them credit, they all seem to
be trying to do the absolute *load* of physical labor involved but can't
seem to shake democratic ideas about time off.

The gentleman given the part of the butler is a jewel and seems to be
the member of the 'downstairs' cast that is really try to live the
experience.  I wish they would go into more detail on some of the
costumes, and their care, but there have been some interesting
perspectives from the personal maid for the lady of the manor.

Oh yeah, and Sir Dereck Jacobi is the narrator.  I would listen to him
read a phone book :).

Catherine
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Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 13:15:42 -0700 (PDT)
From: Sidonia Ros <sidoniaros@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Speaking of being unpaid...
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
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You knew the job was dangerous when you took it, Fred.

Ghislaine


--- Jacobson Dawn <dme_maud@pacbell.net> wrote:
> OK, I'll freely admit it--the only pay you'll get
> for
> this hard work is lunch, my gratitude, and the
> egoboo
> from seeing your work help a bunch of pretty nice
> kids
> do a really big musical.
> 
> I'm scheduling a "sewing hell" for "Oz" on Saturday,
> May 3, from 9:00 - approximately 3:00 p.m. It will
> be
> at Hogan High School, 850 Rosewood St., Vallejo. You
> need to bring your own portable sewing machine and a
> pair of scissors; I'll supply everything else,
> including fabric, thread, designs, trims, etc. I
> particularly need people that know serious sewing,
> as
> I've got 14 gold and black Cossack-style coats to
> build for the Winkies.
> 
> If you can make it, please contact me off-list so I
> can give you directions.
> 
> Thanks a bunch in advance.
> 
> Dawn
> 
> 
> 
> =====
> Dawn Jacobson
> Vallejo, CA, USA
> 
> "Of course I recognize her. Who else would wear ruby
> slippers with those socks?"
>           --Wicked Witch
>                     "Wizard of Oz", Act 1, Scene 7
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume


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Subject: Re: [h-cost] OT: How to get cigarette smell out of books?
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> Charcoal is a good remover of bad smells. 

Try placing the charcoal on a baking sheet, in the oven (NOT turned on) and 
place the book on the upper shelf.  This should work.  As a caution, tape a 
note on the oven, reminding you and all others in the house, there is a book 
inside.

Katrin
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I had a paid internship as a reporter, many moons ago. In journalism, at
least then, an unpaid internship was bad. You were either worked to death or
learned nothing. Real newspapers had money for internships. Same went for
magazine internships, when I worked for a magazine.

That said, other industries are different, and times are different. An
industry with a lot of money to spare, or even SOME money to spare, should
pay its interns. But plenty of small companies don't have money for interns,
and are willing to barter. You have to go by the standards of the industry,
not by what all other industries are doing. And of course, the value of what
you'll be learning. If good people are willing to work for Penny for free,
or for barter, I think it's an indication that in her area and line of work
(I don't mean to denegrate your work Penny, but I am guessing that The
Costume Gallery doesn't roll in big bucks) the skills these interns are
learning are a great return for their work.

Gail Finke


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>*&$%#@!! Dish Network/Cincinnati! I hunted and hunted for Manor House on the
>gazillion PBS stations (and the Manor House PBS website) and couldn't find it
>here on our local affiliates. I don't suppose anyone here is local to
>Cincinnati and knows where the heck Manor House is?
>
>Sarra Wryght
>http://www.livejournal.com/users/loreleisedai/

WCET (local 48) will have Manor house May 4, 11, and 18 all at 6 pm.  Now 
if I can remember to watch it.

http://www.pbs.org/cgi-registry/whatson/template.cgir?s=WCET&t=0&p=23542&c=d&d=2003-05-01

Jennifer

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Yep, I am an unpaid worker too. I do non-profit WebPages and programming
when they need it for free. :)

Chiara

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Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 13:33:01 -0700
From: Kimiko Small <kimiko@kimiko1.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: internships
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At 04:18 PM 4/30/2003 -0400, you wrote:
>the skills these interns are
>learning are a great return for their work.


As one of her interns, I already had the skills she needed for the graphics 
work, but Penny has taught me new things. My payoff is the time in her 
library, and free classes that I want to take as soon as I have time to 
devote to them (client outfit first priority). I also enjoy cleaning up the 
images I have to work on. That is a thrill to see the pretty ladies looking 
better than their originals.

I imagine that when I no longer am getting a thrill from the graphics, or 
no longer need to learn anything, I shall move on. But that won't be for 
awhile with the satisfaction level I am currently at.

Kimiko



Kimiko Small
Costumer, Fiber Artist, Web Designer, Wife and Mother
kimiko@kimiko1.com; http://www.kimiko1.com

Graphic Intern at Costume Gallery
http://www.costumegallery.com

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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Lavolta Press <fran@lavoltapress.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: internships
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I'm not criticizing you, but I'd hope that if you do professional graphics 
work later on you will continue to enjoy it just as much even when paid. I 
certainly would not hire someone who didn't have genuine enthusiasm for the 
job, and I think most employers feel the same way.

Fran




>I imagine that when I no longer am getting a thrill from the graphics, or 
>no longer need to learn anything, I shall move on. But that won't be for 
>awhile with the satisfaction level I am currently at.
>
>Kimiko
>
>
>
>Kimiko Small
>Costumer, Fiber Artist, Web Designer, Wife and Mother
>kimiko@kimiko1.com; http://www.kimiko1.com
>
>Graphic Intern at Costume Gallery
>http://www.costumegallery.com
>
>_______________________________________________
>h-costume mailing list
>h-costume@mail.indra.com
>http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

Lavolta Press Books on Historic Costuming
http://www.lavoltapress.com
Historic and Vintage Dance
http://www.lavoltapress.com/dance 


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Subject: [h-cost] Manor House tapes
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grr - cannot find my VCR remote, so I can't tape tonights.

I'll probably set my alarm to tape it on Friday o-dark 30 - get up, 
press button, go back to bed.

Alas, they re-broadcast pt 1 at 2:30 THIS AM, so at the moment I won;t 
be able to get it all for people.

Wendy Z
Chicago


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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: internships
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At 02:04 PM 4/30/2003 -0700, you wrote:
>I'm not criticizing you, but I'd hope that if you do professional graphics 
>work later on you will continue to enjoy it just as much even when paid. I 
>certainly would not hire someone who didn't have genuine enthusiasm for 
>the job, and I think most employers feel the same way.
>
>Fran

I only do what I have enthusiasm for. Web design, graphics work, 
costumes... all I have a passion for. But I know myself too well. If I do 
not like something I am working on, I devote less time to it than it 
deserves. I stopped doing ceramics because of this. Too many things of the 
same type even if I did get paid for it.

This is why I like the challenge of costumes or graphics. Each project is 
different and gives me different things to do or learn from them. If it is 
the same thing all the time, I get bored and cannot sit still. So I better 
like what I work on, or I won't work on it, paid or not. That's just me. I 
admire those who can do "repetitive gruntwork" because I know I can't. Not 
even housework it seems {sigh}.

:-)

Kimiko



Kimiko Small
Costumer, Fiber Artist, Web Designer, Wife and Mother
kimiko@kimiko1.com; http://www.kimiko1.com

Graphic Intern at Costume Gallery
http://www.costumegallery.com

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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Lavolta Press <fran@lavoltapress.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: internships
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I'm understand, since I also never doe things that bore me. I'm just saying 
that getting paid and enjoying one's work are by no means mutually 
exclusive.  As for the housework--when it gets done at all, my husband does it.

Fran




>This is why I like the challenge of costumes or graphics. Each project is 
>different and gives me different things to do or learn from them. If it is 
>the same thing all the time, I get bored and cannot sit still. So I better 
>like what I work on, or I won't work on it, paid or not. That's just me. I 
>admire those who can do "repetitive gruntwork" because I know I can't. Not 
>even housework it seems {sigh}.
>
>Kimiko
>
>
>
>Kimiko Small
>Costumer, Fiber Artist, Web Designer, Wife and Mother
>kimiko@kimiko1.com; http://www.kimiko1.com
>
>Graphic Intern at Costume Gallery
>http://www.costumegallery.com
>
>_______________________________________________
>h-costume mailing list
>h-costume@mail.indra.com
>http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

Lavolta Press Books on Historic Costuming
http://www.lavoltapress.com
Historic and Vintage Dance
http://www.lavoltapress.com/dance 


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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: Raising money for Charity with costume-advice needed
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Thanks Dawn

Please can you tell me more about what you do, this sounds a great way to
raise the cash

Mel





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Subject: [h-cost] original question A costumer's dream career?
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>Here are the questions running around in my mind-
>
>If you could run any business or work in any capacity related to historic
>costume, what would be your dream job/career?

I'd be making costumed historic dolls.

>Where would you work, what is the absolute best thing you can think of
>doing?

I'd probably have to work in an area with several costumed-cloth-doll 
collectors living within, say, 50 miles of me and my hypothetical 
shop/studio.  The internet would help me here, but I'd have to do gallery 
showings (probably in my studio), and regular doll shows too.

I don't know if this is even on the right track for you or your needs.  I 
always didn't like the sewing part, that being my only means to the wearing 
part.  But I never realized how much I hated the sewing part till I found 
myself using working on the dolls as a reward for doing some more work on 
the costumes for me.

I continue to teach costume-related things, so people won't ask me to sew 
for them, and I still have a couple of outfits I need to finish for living 
history venues.  But doll making lets me have all those dresses I never 
could fit into, store, afford, or find a place to wear.  (Barbie has the 
un-naturally tiny waist we were discussing in the recent corset thread, but 
she's a doll, not a human.)

         CarolynKayta Barrows
dollmaker, fibre artist, textillian
           www.FunStuft.com

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From: Katy Bishop <vintage@shore.net>
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] "Manor House" tapes
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Go to www.pbs.org and click on Manor House then check local listings for
when it is playing in your area.

I've caught most of the series and had meant to send a reminder to the
list before it started but I had a horribly busy weekend and forgot.  I
hope you all get to catch it on reruns.  It's fun to watch.  In vintage
dance I've always wanted to do an event during which we actually have
the servants to help us get ready for a ball.  I loved watching Gosford
Park when all the servants were preparing their masters' clothing,
ironing and mending.  Ahh, to not have to prepare my own outfit (and
those for my customers) just once.

Katy

On Wed, 30 Apr 2003, Beteena Paradise wrote:

>I also found out about this series this week. Are they going to be
>rebroadcasting the entire series this Friday?
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "zski" <zski@ripco.com>
>To: <h-costume@indra.com>
>Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2003 3:39 PM
>Subject: [h-cost] "Manor House" tapes
>
>
>> I will try and tape the whole shebang when they re-broadcast it at 1 Am
>> on Friday.  If it works, I'd be willing to set up a tape tree.
>>
>> Wendy Z
>> Chicago
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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>>
>>
>
>_______________________________________________
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>

Katy Bishop, Vintage Victorian
vintage@shore.net                www.VintageVictorian.com
     Custom reproduction gowns of the Victorian Era.
      Publisher of the Vintage Dress Series books.

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>>If you could run any business or work in any capacity related to historic
>>costume, what would be your dream job/career?
>
I try to remember to be grateful every day for the fact that I'm one of the
very few who are living their dream careers.  If I really wanted to be
piggy about it, though, I'd want more help with the less creative aspects,
like processing orders, and to travel more, so that I could go to more
conventions, more museums, and do more original research.  The main reason
I don't is time away from my family.  Having started late in life, my
children are young enough that more than a day or two away is tough.

Margo

"The Diana Gabaldon of costume patterns"
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In a message dated 4/30/2003 11:20:02 AM Pacific Standard Time, 
r.carnegie@verizon.net writes:


> This is interesting.  I was taught very little about the California Indians, 
> and their cultures were all wrapped up into one pan-californian goulash.  
> We spent a lot opf time on Spanish California however, and the Spanish 
> explorers or other parts of what would become the United States.  They way 
> we were taught this all ended with the Mexican revolution and then nothing 
> happened untill the Bear Flag revolt!
> 

Weird.  Of course, it could be the time you went through the class or the 
grade level you took it in.  As far as that goes it could be the district you 
went to school in.

Kit

If you walk a mile in someone else's shoes, do you get to keep them? - 
Kenneth Cole
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In a message dated 4/30/2003 12:37:14 PM Pacific Standard Time, 
madlystitching@earthlink.net writes:


> Hell as far as I am concerned they can have the southern part of the state
> back.  It's only good for fabric, and someplace to send our waste water.
> 
> Stephen
> 

That was rude.  Some people (obviously, myself) take exception to that sort 
of attitude.

Kit

If you walk a mile in someone else's shoes, do you get to keep them? - 
Kenneth Cole
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From: Robin Netherton <robin@shell.nightowl.net>
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Subject: [h-cost] Lecture, 17th c. costume, Massachusetts
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Forwarded with permission from another list. If you're interested, you
might want to check and see if registration is required.

-----

Subject: FREE Lecture/Historic Textile,Costume

9:00 am MAY 3: "The Sober People of Hadley: Clothing and Sumptuary Laws,"
(Laws which govern appearance and clothing according to economic and
social status), 17th century

by Lynne Zacek Bassett, Curator Textiles and Costume, CT Historical
Society, co-author of Northern Comfort: New England's Early Quilts

At the Renaissance Center, UMass-Amherst. If you want to check out the
Renaissance Center's website, the URL is:
http://www.umass.edu/renaissance/

Contact info for the lecture is:
Arthur F. Kinney, Director
afkinney@english.umass.edu

Massachusetts Center for Renaissance Studies
University of Massachusetts at Amherst
P.O. Box 2300
Amherst, MA 01004
Email: renaissance@english.umass.edu
Office: (413) 577 3600
Fax: (413) 577 3605




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Subject: [h-cost] historical views; was: A costumer's dream job?
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In referencing Stephen's comments: My husband and I visited Sacramento"s 
Sutter Fort Mountain Man/Pioneer Faire last weekend and, to our 
disappointment, found very little Mountain Man and zero Californio 
presence.  The Californio era is quite fascinating, if not just for its 
brevity, but also for its non-profiteering, Iberian aura, but its 
existence was totally overlooked by Sutter's Fort, and, to my dismay, 
the docents at the bookstore, of all things.

Plus, one exhibit had a man BOASTING about how clever the Americans in 
their pirate raids were to have ripped off California from Mexican 
hegemony.  I was so disgusted I just had to walk away, otherwise I would 
have started a donneybrook. That kind of self-interested preening seems 
to pervade the education system, robbing our kids of a balanced and 
evaluative perspective.

Sheesh, my turn to jump off the soap box,

Theresa Eacker

Stephen Bergdahl wrote:
  (Pruning ensues)

>>Whereas most people in
>>California only know that things started to get going around the
>>1850's, so the personal interest in reenacting groups is more focused
>>on the last 150 years or so.
> That is a problem with the schools out here in California.  They only teach
> history of California starting with the 1850's.  But we have a much longer
> history than just when the US stole California from Mexico.  The pre-gold
> rush history is rich with intrusting people and clothing.  But it is all
> sweep under the rug, because a lot of people don't want to face facts.
> 
> Stephen - On his soap box.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
> 
> 


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From: Robin Netherton <robin@shell.nightowl.net>
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Sleeve construction for GFD
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On Wed, 30 Apr 2003, Vicki Lamb wrote:

> I'm working on a gothic fitted dress following Robin's suggestions from 
> the list and notes on her web site. The gown is constructed of medium 
> blue lightweight wool lined in black medium weight linen.

Ah, good choice :-) Where did you get your wool? I've been all over
creation looking for lightweight wool in a medium blue for a year now.
(Saw some at Vogue last week, but much too pricey.)

> With the help of a friend (who is subscribed to this list--Hi Nancy!)
> we did four fittings in muslin to get the pattern just right. When I
> constructed the body I first joined the front and back lining pieces
> at the shoulder seams, and did the same for the outer fabric. Then I
> sewed the lining to the wool along the neckline and down both sides of
> the front opening. I next hand-sewed the buttonholes (19!) and
> attached the corresponding metal shank buttons on the edge of the
> fabric as shown in the MoL book.  Then I buttoned it up and Nancy
> pinned and marked the sides of the lining to get a snug supportive fit
> from the armscye to the hipline.  After I stitched that up she
> pinned/marked the wool and I sewed those seams. This probably isn't
> the authentic way to construct it, but the fit is fabulous and there
> were no adjustments needed to the buttoned edge--which is nice and
> straight. I've added the gores and finished all the seams, etc.

Sounds workable to me. There are probably fifty different ways to assemble
these things, and I've probably found about half of them by now ;-) Till
we have a real one to examine, we don't have much clue about the order in
which they did seams, the way they attached linings, etc. -- and I'd
presume that to a large extent the methods varied from one seamster to
another (as, most likely, details of cut would vary).

One small point I'd note: I have yet to see any evidence for button use on
the front of an underdress (that is, the standard fitted dress that's worn
as the basic layer and can serve as an underdress or be worn by itself,
over a chemise, for informal situations). Buttons on the sleeves, yes. But
for the front, I would normally assume lacing as a default. Buttons down
the front seem to be a characteristic of overdresses. I'm willing to be
proved wrong, though, if anyone ever finds a good example. It can be hard
to determine, in some artwork, whether a long-sleeved dress is worn as a
single layer or is an overdress over a hidden underdress, which does
complicate matters.

That said, if the button front works for you and you're not putting a
fitted dress over it, I doubt anyone will give you any hassle about it.

> Now on to the sleeves and my question! I have done muslin mockups for 
> the sleeves and have a workable pattern for them. I plan to have buttons 
> from the wrist to the elbow. I am writing to ask for help regarding 
> suggestions on how to construct each sleeve with the two pieces. Should I:
> -use the lining and wool as one piece and sew the sleeve seam from the 
> shoulder to the elbow
> -then stitch the lining to the wool for the buttonhole and the button edges
> -put in the buttonholes and buttons
> -then stitch the lining to the wool at the wrist when I am sure about 
> the finished sleeve length
> Or is there a better or more authentic way to do this? Any help or 
> suggestions would be greatly appreciated! I've been sewing and doing 
> needlework for years, but am rather new to costuming.

I think I make the sleeves a little differently each time I do them.
Sometimes I line them, sometimes not; if I don't line them, I reinforce
the button and buttonhole areas with ribbon or a strip of sturdy fabric or
a proper turned facing off the edge. Sometimes I use a two-piece pattern
split at the elbow; sometimes a two-piece pattern split longitudinally;
sometimes a hybrid one-piece that's split and curved from elbow down. If
you have a mockup that works, you're 90 percent of the way there. If you
wish to line it, then remember that your goal is to keep the raw edges
turned into the inside of the lining/dress sandwich. However you get there
is up to you.

I might do the cuff edge last on an unlined sleeve; I'd turn and bind,
most likely. On a lined sleeve, I don't usually do the cuff edge last
because I like a finished edge there, which is easier to do from the
inside and turn, so I do it at the same time I do the button opening edges
(just as you did with the neck and the front opening in one go). Often my
last seam is the attachment of the sleeve lining at the inside of the
armhole seam. I might even cut the sleeve lining off at the seam line,
bind the raw edge, and whip it to the armhole seam as the last thing. Or I
might just turn the seam allowance under and blind-stitch or whip-stitch.
Much depends on the weight and flexibility of the fabric.

--Robin


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Subject: Re: [h-cost] "Manor House" tapes
Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 17:57:53 -0700
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I don't know what a tape tree is, but now I'm diing to see this too!!


Jennifer Sena
Distant Designs
http://home.teleport.com/~cedric/distdesi

I wont hurt you, I just want to dress you up!!


>I will try and tape the whole shebang when they re-broadcast it at 1 Am on 
>Friday.  If it works, I'd be willing to set up a tape tree.
>
>Wendy Z
>Chicago
>


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>grr - cannot find my VCR remote, so I can't tape tonights.
>
>I'll probably set my alarm to tape it on Friday o-dark 30 - get up, press 
>button, go back to bed.
>
>Alas, they re-broadcast pt 1 at 2:30 THIS AM, so at the moment I won;t be 
>able to get it all for people.
>
>Wendy Z
>Chicago
>
>
My husband has a program called Imesh that he uses to download StarTrek 
Enterprise episodes to our computer since we don't have TV.  I'm computer 
illiterate, but maybe people who do have parts could upload them to Imesh 
and the rest of us can get it from there?  It's a free program I believe.

Jennifer Sena
Distant Designs
http://home.teleport.com/~cedric/distdesi

I wont hurt you, I just want to dress you up!!







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Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 12:07:45 -0700
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Heather Rose Jones <hrjones@socrates.berkeley.edu>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Manor House
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At 5:58 PM +0000 4/30/03, Gia_Gavino@attbi.com wrote:
>Hi!  Yep, another one.
>
>I caught about 1 1/2 hour of it last night.  I did enjoy looking at the
>costumes, and hear about the strict codes of conduct and about how 
>the societal
>strata was so rigidly adhered to.
>
>However, the incessant complaining of the people, from the all the folks on
>each of the 'stairs', about the 'rules' was off-putting.  I think I would have
>enjoyed it better if the participants were folks that knew a little about what
>they are doing, and talk about those aspects, so the viewers could 
>get a deeper
>appreciation for the efforts it took in those times.

Doesn't this come up as a regular theme, though?  It points out that 
what we, as people interested in history, are interested in seeing is 
quite different from what their target audience is expected to be 
interested in seeing.  And the behind-the-scenes information that 
we've gotten on other historic-immersion "reality shows" is that they 
_deliberately_ play up the culture shock and historic ignorance 
factors as part of the intended entertainment value.  Despite the 
historic settings, these shows are intended to be far more closely 
akin to "Survivor" than to "living history".  Expecting anything 
different will only break our hearts.

Heather
-- 
*****
Heather Rose Jones
hrjones@socrates.berkeley.edu
*****
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From: "Kendra Van Cleave" <kendrav@attbi.com>
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Manor House
Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 18:44:19 -0700
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----- Original Message ----- 
From: "zski" <zski@ripco.com>
To: <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2003 12:36 PM
Subject: RE: [h-cost] Manor House


<snip>
> I found the end of episode 4 very interesting, where the "lady"'s sister
> gets sent off by a doctor on holiday because she is so stressed out from
> not being allowed to do anything or be anything.  It really lets you in
> to the headspace of the era.  The Lord seems to be taking to it quite
> easily, and getting pompous and insensitive as a result.  Many of the
> Family said that the extreme formality, and the fact that no one ever
> really talks to each other is putting increasing distance on their
> presonal relationships, which are getting "strage" as they put it.  Veyr
> enlightening.

Although what irked me about this (and always does in similar situations) is
that the way this was portrayed was that it would have upset Edwardian
people just as much.  Obviously the people in the "Manor House" program are
bringing their modern expectations and experiences with them.  An Edwardian
woman may have felt similarly to Miss Anson (the Lady's sister), but she may
not have, or she may have felt something we can't even imagine.

- Kendra

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From: "Joan Broneske" <unicorn@softcom.net>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
References: <D4C31B2E-7B3F-11D7-9596-0003934DD4B0@elizabethanlady.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: A costumer's dream job?
Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 18:57:41 -0700
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Have you heard of La Raza? I'm not saying you shouldn't be proud of your
culture or your "States ties to Mexico"; however, I believe the original
conversation was referring to the fact that no "history of California before
1850" was being taught, i.e. leaving out the "Mexico and native connections"
that existed before 1850 (nothing was mentioned about the Russian
connection, incidentally) and I was responding to the fact that according to
US census data, in a very short few more years, Hispanics will comprise the
majority in California, both in terms of shear numbers and most likely by
then, politically as well.  They will then have the power, along with other
cultural and ethnic groups who are tired of "white man's history", to change
it in the public school system curriculum.



                  ,%%%,
             --==% `%%%,
                 |' )`%%,
                 \_/\ @%%,
                   __@@" %%%--"""-.%,
                  /`__|             \%%
                  \\  \   /   |     /'%,
                   \]  | /----'.   < `%,
Joan Broneske          ||       `>> >
unicorn@softcom.net    ||       ///`
                       /(      //(
----- Original Message -----
From: "Sarah" <sarah@elizabethanlady.com>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2003 12:13 PM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: A costumer's dream job?


> > Well, you probably won't have to worry about that too much longer,
> > since
> > Mexico is slowly but surely taking it back.
>
> Er... Not so sure I understand what you're implying.  Mexico and
> California have never had a vast division in terms of business, esp.
> agriculture.  Many "Mexicans" here in Cali. are as Californian as I am
> (over eight generations were Californian born on my dad's side of the
> family.  My fiance, whose father's side is "Mexican" have been here for
> just as long, although their first language is Spanish).  I'm quite
> proud of my state's ties to Mexico, both territorially and culturally.
>
> Sarah
>
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
>
>


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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Manor House
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> Doesn't this come up as a regular theme, though?  It points out that 
> what we, as people interested in history, are interested in seeing is 
> quite different from what their target audience is expected to be 
> interested in seeing.  And the behind-the-scenes information that 
> we've gotten on other historic-immersion "reality shows" is that they 
> _deliberately_ play up the culture shock and historic ignorance 
> factors as part of the intended entertainment value.  Despite the 
> historic settings, these shows are intended to be far more closely 
> akin to "Survivor" than to "living history".  Expecting anything 
> different will only break our hearts.

That's a really good point.  I noticed that as the series wore on, they 
spent less and less time with the people who weren't freaking out over 
some small thing.  The stable boy gets hardly *any* camera time 
whatsoever, because unlike practically every other person in the manor 
house, he actually knows how to do his job and does it quietly and 
without any fuss.  Next up is the first footman, who after the first 
episode stands around in the background looking good.  He had one screw 
up that they played up, but that's been about all.  He even admitted to 
the camera that he wanted to make this successful because he wanted to 
take pride in being able to pull it off, no matter how hard it was.  
Same thing with the elder son.  The less drama, the less camera time.

Still, it's a good show.  Unfortunately, I can't watch the last two 
episodes tonight because my mom wants to watch the basketball game.  
Bah.

Sarah

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Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 19:19:12 -0700
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Chris Laning <claning@igc.org>
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At 4:03 PM -0500 4/29/03, zski wrote:
><Rant Mode ON>
>One of the reasons I don't do wedding work anymore is that I ended 
>up with a lot of brides and bridesmaids who expected me to do 
>everything for them for free - the 6:00 AM call on a Sunday asking 
>me where to buy kilt hose, for example.  Even my friends don't get 
>to call me at that hour on a Sunday unless someone is dead.  Or the 
>ones who expected me to go to the rehearsal for free "just to make 
>sure everything is OK".  Or who changed patterns mid-stream.  I have 
>had several want to back out mid-project because of this, and I 
>usually suggest that they visit a bridal shop and ask what they 
>would charge for the same thing.  I usually end up with rather 
>sheepish brides.
><Rant Mode OFF>

I had a housemate once who swore off weddings after the bride's 
mother spent the entire rehearsal fussing because the ribbons on the 
ring pillow didn't match the flower girls' dresses. <sigh>

Not to mention the brides who have their hearts set on a style that 
makes them look about twelve, or 55 (when they aren't), or fat, or 
washed out; who gain or lose 20 pounds at random intervals; who fight 
with their mothers in front of the dressmaker about how low the 
neckline can be; or who expect a custom-made gown to be cheaper than 
a store-bought one (fortunately a small number of these last).

The wedding business is particularly difficult because it's a very 
emotional time with big changes for most people, and a lot of people 
get sufficiently overwhelmed by it that they begin to think that how 
the wedding dress goes, or how the wedding itself goes, is going to 
somehow determine how the marriage will go. :-/ So of course 
everything has to be "perfect".

OTOH, I learned that brides who think they want to make their wedding 
and/or bridesmaids' dresses themselves are a seamstress' best friend 
-- when they buy $50 per yard lace and are afraid to cut into it, or 
their first six attempts at sewing slippery fabric are a total 
disaster, or they are pressured by their in-laws-to-be into having 
eight bridesmaids rather than two. (The problem with these jobs is 
that they tend to have short deadlines, since the seamstress doesn't 
get called until they are really running out of time.)

I think the funniest one I saw was when someone came to my housemate 
wanting six bridesmaids' dresses in three weeks. She had actually 
ordered the dresses from a bridal shop weeks earlier, but had picked 
the color from a very small fabric sample. The color was called 
"aubergine," and apparently the bride had never studied French -- 
where that's the word for "eggplant." When the dresses came in, 
that's the color that they were . . . which is why my housemate got 
the job of making six dresses in a much nicer color.
-- 
_________________________________________________________
O    Chris Laning
|     <claning@igc.org>
+    Davis, California
_________________________________________________________
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Subject: [h-cost] Re: Manor House
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I haven't had the chance to watch much of it, but I've taped it to catch 
the rest later.  I thought it was interesting that the lady's maid was a 
haberdasher (sp?) who loved watching historical movies for the clothing :-)

I also agree that the maids (especially) hadn't the foggiest just what 
they were getting into... and personally, because of the amount of 
physical labor and the hours involved... and the fact that very few 
people these days do anywhere near that level of work (haven't 
practically grown up into it),  I wish that the creators had leant 
towards a bigger staff than might have been "average".  Looking at that 
place, I also have my doubts that they never had more help than that 
during the shooting season... not that Upstairs Downstairs is a great 
comparison (history research wise), but it's not bad.  In Up-Down, they 
had a head parlormaid/upstairs maid... who usually had a maid under her, 
the lady's maid, butler, footman, cook, scullery maid (who doubled as a 
kitchen maid but also had some help in the scrubbing in some of the 
episodes at least).  The house was half (maybe less) the size of the 
house they're using in Manor House.  The family was also smaller, most 
of the time, and they had the addition of a maid to help at least half 
the time in the nursery when it was in use.

I really like these shows for the information, and for at least *some* 
of the observations the participants have (not *all* the whinging 
though) but I swear they set them up to fail by doing some things 
half-way... at least this time the rules were spelled out better (which 
helps a bit with the "it's not fair"s).

Only other thing I wish that they'd do is allow the women their modern 
day sanitary napkins at least... or at least after trying the old 
fashioned method if they wanted.  The convenience of the newer ones is 
only part of the reason for them... the other parts have to do with 
cleanliness and  the handling of what is now considered hazardous 
material/fluids.

Sigh... The colony show that is being done this spring/summer/fall 
(can't remember when it starts/ends exactly) will be interesting for its 
shortcomings as well.  On the bright side, they're saying they will 
welcome folks who do these crafts and re-enactment (that's a change 
right there)... on the down side, most starting up colonial towns tended 
to be created by people who had *something* in common in their desire to 
begin a whole new town, without any other real connections... they're 
going to be bringing in people with no connections... not even religion 
if what the webpage says is true (and I have a vague feeling that 
they're going to include a bit of the feeling about the period religious 
requirements vs. some non-christian if they can get them views)


*g* Still enjoying the show for the view into the house... and the 
clothes... etc... just trying to ignore the complaining.  After all, 
some of us are bright enough to know our limitations before jumping into 
something like that.  (again, I seriously doubt that the maids (at 
least) had much warning... or spelling out of duties beforehand).

-Elisabeth


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From: sewinggoddess@att.net
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Date: Thu, 01 May 2003 03:24:15 +0000
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Subject: [h-cost] Re: wedding dressses
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Status: RO

Non-stressed bride----

   Yes they do exist, rare and very few in the world, but I did actually have 
the pleasure of sewing for one.   We had designed a Medieval-oid gown for her 
with silk chiffon flowy sleeves and a small amount of embellishment around the 
bodice detail. The Caveat? She was four months pregnant when I measured her and 
would be seven months pregnant at the wedding.  Mock up done at four and half 
months.  We had another friend present at the fitting who happened to be 
a nurse, and between the three of us we took an educated guess at *how* 
pregnant she would be at the time of the wedding. Sooooo... withthe help of a 
stragecally placed pillow <g> we took "final" measurements and I commenced with 
my guess-dress. Just in case she got *really* pregnant early, I had a two inch 
allowance safety margin in the side seams.  
     She was also the most low stress bride I have ever worked with. WE went 
shopping for fabrics once, ordered the silk chiffon online and when the fabrics 
came in, I asked if she wanted to go shopping to finalize everything. Her 
answer.. " No that's great I trust your judgement. You know what I like and I 
have every confidence in you."  I asked her when she'd like the dress by.. 
figuring on finishing it at least two weeks before the wedding, just in case I 
have to do any last minute altertions.  She said " well.. as long as I have it 
by 10:30 the morning of the wedding I'm fine with that." ?????   The wedding 
was scheduled for 11am!  Let me just say in hindsight, I had the best time 
working on that dress. No one breathing down my back and the embellishment as I 
desired.  She got her dress the morning of the wedding and it was jsut perfect. 
( she did make her fittings--She had come over to get it hemmed two weeks 
prior to the wedding. Due to the fact that she and I lived two hours apart it 
was a bit of astretch for either of us to get to see each other. but It cam out 
wonderful!)

  Everyone needs a bride like that once in a while!

Crissy     
    
> At 4:03 PM -0500 4/29/03, zski wrote:
> ><Rant Mode ON>
> >One of the reasons I don't do wedding work anymore is that I ended 
> >up with a lot of brides and bridesmaids who expected me to do 
> >everything for them for free - the 6:00 AM call on a Sunday asking 
> >me where to buy kilt hose, for example.  Even my friends don't get 
> >to call me at that hour on a Sunday unless someone is dead.  Or the 
> >ones who expected me to go to the rehearsal for free "just to make 
> >sure everything is OK".  Or who changed patterns mid-stream.  I have 
> >had several want to back out mid-project because of this, and I 
> >usually suggest that they visit a bridal shop and ask what they 
> >would charge for the same thing.  I usually end up with rather 
> >sheepish brides.
> ><Rant Mode OFF>
> 
> I had a housemate once who swore off weddings after the bride's 
> mother spent the entire rehearsal fussing because the ribbons on the 
> ring pillow didn't match the flower girls' dresses. <sigh>
> 

> Not to mention the brides who have their hearts set on a style that 
> makes them look about twelve, or 55 (when they aren't), or fat, or 
> washed out; who gain or lose 20 pounds at random intervals; who fight 
> with their mothers in front of the dressmaker about how low the 
> neckline can be; or who expect a custom-made gown to be cheaper than 
> a store-bought one (fortunately a small number of these last).
> 
> The wedding business is particularly difficult because it's a very 
> emotional time with big changes for most people, and a lot of people 
> get sufficiently overwhelmed by it that they begin to think that how 
> the wedding dress goes, or how the wedding itself goes, is going to 
> somehow determine how the marriage will go. :-/ So of course 
> everything has to be "perfect".
> 
> OTOH, I learned that brides who think they want to make their wedding 
> and/or bridesmaids' dresses themselves are a seamstress' best friend 
> -- when they buy $50 per yard lace and are afraid to cut into it, or 

> their first six attempts at sewing slippery fabric are a total 
> disaster, or they are pressured by their in-laws-to-be into having 
> eight bridesmaids rather than two. (The problem with these jobs is 
> that they tend to have short deadlines, since the seamstress doesn't 
> get called until they are really running out of time.)
> 
> I think the funniest one I saw was when someone came to my housemate 
> wanting six bridesmaids' dresses in three weeks. She had actually 
> ordered the dresses from a bridal shop weeks earlier, but had picked 
> the color from a very small fabric sample. The color was called 
> "aubergine," and apparently the bride had never studied French -- 
> where that's the word for "eggplant." When the dresses came in, 
> that's the color that they were . . . which is why my housemate got 
> the job of making six dresses in a much nicer color.
> -- 
> _________________________________________________________
> O    Chris Laning
> |     <claning@igc.org>
> +    Davis, California

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From: "Glenda Robinson" <glendar@compassnet.com.au>
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Manor House
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Status: RO

Manor House was shown in the UK and later Australia as the Edwardian Country
House. I thought the kitchen maid Antonia was just wonderful in her
attitudes towards the experiment. And the chef - marvellous! I'm glad he was
horrified at the family's insistance that non-period food be eaten.

Glenda.

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From: Cascio Michael <rosenau5@yahoo.com>
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Subject: [h-cost] Costume gallery going to a pay site?
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Status: RO

Could someone please explain what it means when the
costume gallery is going to a paying basis?  I knew
that if I wanted to download a graphic there was a fee
but this sounds remarkably like a pay to look at
anything?  Wouldn't that keep new people from
accidentally finding the site or deciding to pay the
fee if they don't know if there is anything they want
to look at on the site?
                               Confused,
                               Cassandra

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Status: RO

>I think the funniest one I saw was when someone came to my housemate 
>wanting six bridesmaids' dresses in three weeks. She had actually 
>ordered the dresses from a bridal shop weeks earlier, but had picked 
>the color from a very small fabric sample. The color was called 
>"aubergine," and apparently the bride had never studied French -- 
>where that's the word for "eggplant." When the dresses came in, 
>that's the color that they were . . . which is why my housemate got 
>the job of making six dresses in a much nicer color.

I don't get it.  Aubergine is a beautiful color!  

Margo

"The Diana Gabaldon of costume patterns"
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: wedding dressses
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All this discussion about making wedding dresses reminds
me of the ONE time that my mother agreed to sew one for
a non-family member. Disaster! She swore never to deal
with brides again! <grin>

Of course, she had enough trouble making all three of my
sisters' dresses. And their bridesmaid dresses.
(The bridesmaid dresses for my oldest
sister were finished up by hand as she was in the hospital
for pneumonia at the time.)

I was the last of my sisters to be married. I think my mother
was very grateful that I sewed my own dress! ;-)

Sheryl Nance-Durst



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Oh, *yeah*....me, too! <g>
I only got to see parts of Episodes 3 and 4, but a girlfriend's taping
the whole thing, and is gonna lend it to me.
The costumes look yummy (although I know diddly about Edwardian), and
the manor house itself looks grand.  Does anyone know where it was
filmed?
--sue

Catherine Kinsey wrote:
> 
> Oh yeah, and Sir Dereck Jacobi is the narrator.  I would listen to him
> read a phone book :).
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From: "Penny Ladnier" <penny@costumegallery.com>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Costume gallery going to a pay site?
Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 00:26:10 -0400
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Cassandra,

I promise I will get back to you and explain.  I had an MRI on my back today
and am in a good deal of pain.  We also ran into a problem with the website
in Netscape that we are trying to fix.

Penny Ladnier
Owner, The Costume Gallery & Costume Classroom
http://www.costumegallery.com
http://www.costumeclassroom.com
http://www.onlinecostumeball.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Cascio Michael" <rosenau5@yahoo.com>
To: <h-costume@net.indra.com>
Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2003 11:57 PM
Subject: [h-cost] Costume gallery going to a pay site?


> Could someone please explain what it means when the
> costume gallery is going to a paying basis?  I knew
> that if I wanted to download a graphic there was a fee
> but this sounds remarkably like a pay to look at
> anything?  Wouldn't that keep new people from
> accidentally finding the site or deciding to pay the
> fee if they don't know if there is anything they want
> to look at on the site?
>                                Confused,
>                                Cassandra
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo.
> http://search.yahoo.com
> _______________________________________________
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>


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Oooh, ouch!, Penny....take care of yourself!
Of course, I always thought lying still that long was more a pain in the
neck, but.....<g>
--sue

Penny Ladnier wrote:
> 
> Cassandra,
> 
> I promise I will get back to you and explain.  I had an MRI on my back today
> and am in a good deal of pain.  We also ran into a problem with the website
> in Netscape that we are trying to fix.
> 
> Penny Ladnier
> Owner, The Costume Gallery & Costume Classroom
> http://www.costumegallery.com
> http://www.costumeclassroom.com
> http://www.onlinecostumeball.com
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Cascio Michael" <rosenau5@yahoo.com>
> To: <h-costume@net.indra.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2003 11:57 PM
> Subject: [h-cost] Costume gallery going to a pay site?
> 
> > Could someone please explain what it means when the
> > costume gallery is going to a paying basis?  I knew
> > that if I wanted to download a graphic there was a fee
> > but this sounds remarkably like a pay to look at
> > anything?  Wouldn't that keep new people from
> > accidentally finding the site or deciding to pay the
> > fee if they don't know if there is anything they want
> > to look at on the site?
> >                                Confused,
> >                                Cassandra
> >
> > __________________________________
> > Do you Yahoo!?
> > The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo.
> > http://search.yahoo.com
> > _______________________________________________
> > h-costume mailing list
> > h-costume@mail.indra.com
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> The wedding business is particularly difficult because it's a very 
> emotional time with big changes for most people, and a lot of people 
> get sufficiently overwhelmed by it that they begin to think that how 
> the wedding dress goes, or how the wedding itself goes, is going to 
> somehow determine how the marriage will go. :-/ So of course 
> everything has to be "perfect".

EXACTLY!  I find that these women can't deal with the fact that their 
entire life is about to change, so they deal with it by obsessing about 
what shade of emerald green their bridesmaids are wearing.

Mind you, if you can put up with it, you can make a lot of money, partly 
because you end up as a sort of on-call therapist.  I can't.

BTW - second marriages are MUCH easier - everyone is much calmer and 
more relaxed about things.

Wendy Z
Chicago

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Sue,

The MRI was only 20 mins but my back locked into position and made it very
difficult to sit up or walk.  I go to my othro doctor tomorrow to put my ax
on the block.  Actually comparing my MRI from 2001 to today, it doesn't look
good from a layman's view.

Heading back to bed.  Time to take a bunch of pain meds and go to the
heading pad.

Penny Ladnier
Owner, The Costume Gallery & Costume Classroom
http://www.costumegallery.com
http://www.costumeclassroom.com
http://www.onlinecostumeball.com


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Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 22:26:46 -0700
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Carolyn Kayta Barrows <kayta@frys.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] original question A costumer's dream career?
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> >>If you could run any business or work in any capacity related to historic
> >>costume, what would be your dream job/career?
> >
>I try to remember to be grateful every day for the fact that I'm one of the
>very few who are living their dream careers.  If I really wanted to be
>piggy about it, though, I'd want more help with the less creative aspects,
>like processing orders, and to travel more, so that I could go to more
>conventions, more museums, and do more original research.  The main reason
>I don't is time away from my family.  Having started late in life, my
>children are young enough that more than a day or two away is tough.

I may only get to live my dream career a few hours a week, but I'm grateful 
that I get to do it at all.  Since I started late in life (I'll be 53 this 
year), and have no husband to provide me with living expenses plus studio 
space, it will probably always be my second job.  (I'll post to this list 
when I get more historically-costumed dolls up on my site.)

Question - is anyone on this list actually self-supporting by 
costuming?  That is, with nobody else paying your rent and living expenses 
or renting you studio/shop space or paying your operating expenses, and 
costuming is your only job?  I can think of two among the total of my 
acquaintances, but they're not on this list.  I'd be surprised if there 
were as many as five here.


         CarolynKayta Barrows
dollmaker, fibre artist, textillian
           www.FunStuft.com

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