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From: "Linda Walton" <linda.walton@dsl.pipex.com>
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Subject: [h-cost] "Art On Demand"
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Status: RO

Just this week, there was a local (to me) news item about London's National
Gallery.  It seems that they've taken digital scans of all their pictures
and have begun to make special prints of any of them for customers.  Now we
will be able to study them in much more detail than ordinary prints.

Here's more about it, for those who understand the technicalities:-
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/3101207.stm

It's so long since I've been there that I can't remember what they have, or
whether my favourites are there or in another Art Gallery, but the National
Portrait Gallery isn't the only place with useful pictures of people.
Anyway, it's suddenly moved right up my list of places to visit - and shop.

Linda Walton,
(in High Wycombe, Buckinghamshire, U.K.).

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Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 09:03:36 +0100
From: "Kate M Bunting" <K.M.Bunting@derby.ac.uk>
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Subject: Re:Salic Law, was [h-cost] Re: bible comment
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Status: RO



Kate Bunting
Library, University of Derby

>>> dme_maud@pacbell.net 07/31/03 06:29pm >>>
wrote:--
> >Actually Charles is the eldest.

>To quote Homer (Simpson): Doh!

>I knew that--that's what I get for answering my e-mail
>at 1:00 in the morning. ;-D 

>Thanks Kate!

Actually Lynne Connolly was the first to point this out.




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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Fri Aug  1 08:43:50 2003
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From: "Ailith Mackintosh" <ailith@neo.rr.com>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>,
   "Sca -Garb" <SCA-GARB@LIST.UVM.EDU>
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Status: RO

Mark your calendar now for next year's Knowne World Costuming Symposium (SCA event)! It will be September 25-26, 2004 at the Four Points Sheraton in North Canton, Ohio (about 60 miles south of Cleveland).

kate

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Beteena Paradise 
  To: Historical Costume 
  Sent: Thursday, July 31, 2003 9:15 PM
  Subject: Re: [h-cost] Bleh


  I am SO with you on this one! I am not going to Pennsic this year, but I am
  already stressing over the costuming symposium and that isn't until October!

  Teena
  ----- Original Message -----
  From: <LoreleiMorte@aol.com>
  To: <h-costume@indra.com>
  Sent: Thursday, July 31, 2003 6:28 PM
  Subject: [h-cost] Bleh


  > Informative subject line, no?
  >
  > Just wondering about those of you SCA costumer types, how the heck do you
  > manage to make enough garb for Pennsic? I can't seem to get through a
  frickin'
  > under kirtle without it becoming a Project (TM)...that takes 4 weeks to
  > complete. And now I'm staring at my farthingale with loathing and dismay,
  because I'm
  > not sure I believe in the Arnold "It's 10 inches too long...for the
  tucks!"
  > theory about Alcega anymore....
  >
  > Does anyone else feel like they "costume/research/sew" all the time but
  have
  > these tiny little wardrobes? I have one year to clothe myself for Pennsic,
  I
  > think I'm too anal to get it done.
  >
  > OK, rant over.
  >
  > -Sarra Wryght
  > <A
  HREF="www.sixteenthcenturystitchery.com">www.sixteenthcenturystitchery.com</
  A>  (Elizabethan Dress Diaries, etc)
  > Live Journal: http://www.livejournal.com/users/loreleisedai/
  > _______________________________________________
  > h-costume mailing list
  > h-costume@mail.indra.com
  > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
  >
  >

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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Fri Aug  1 13:24:33 2003
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From: "Beteena Paradise" <bkessinger@ureach.com>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
References: 
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re:Bleh
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Status: RO

I might have to start working on it now! Ha! Why is it that in my mind I
think, "Wow... I have 4 months, I could make the dress from (insert portrait
of super complicated dress here)". But the reality is always, "Crap... maybe
I have time to whip up a T-tunic". Ok, so maybe I exaggerated a little as I
don't wear T-tunics. But it is close! And generally, in what time I do have
left, I end up making something new for my husband. What is so wrong about
this is that he doesn't CARE if he wears something he has worn before. I, on
the other hand, hate to wear anything twice. ;-)
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ailith Mackintosh" <ailith@neo.rr.com>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>; "Sca -Garb"
<SCA-GARB@LIST.UVM.EDU>
Sent: Friday, August 01, 2003 8:42 AM
Subject: [h-cost] Re:Bleh


Mark your calendar now for next year's Knowne World Costuming Symposium (SCA
event)! It will be September 25-26, 2004 at the Four Points Sheraton in
North Canton, Ohio (about 60 miles south of Cleveland).

kate

  ----- Original Message -----
  From: Beteena Paradise
  To: Historical Costume
  Sent: Thursday, July 31, 2003 9:15 PM
  Subject: Re: [h-cost] Bleh


  I am SO with you on this one! I am not going to Pennsic this year, but I
am
  already stressing over the costuming symposium and that isn't until
October!

  Teena
  ----- Original Message -----
  From: <LoreleiMorte@aol.com>
  To: <h-costume@indra.com>
  Sent: Thursday, July 31, 2003 6:28 PM
  Subject: [h-cost] Bleh


  > Informative subject line, no?
  >
  > Just wondering about those of you SCA costumer types, how the heck do
you
  > manage to make enough garb for Pennsic? I can't seem to get through a
  frickin'
  > under kirtle without it becoming a Project (TM)...that takes 4 weeks to
  > complete. And now I'm staring at my farthingale with loathing and
dismay,
  because I'm
  > not sure I believe in the Arnold "It's 10 inches too long...for the
  tucks!"
  > theory about Alcega anymore....
  >
  > Does anyone else feel like they "costume/research/sew" all the time but
  have
  > these tiny little wardrobes? I have one year to clothe myself for
Pennsic,
  I
  > think I'm too anal to get it done.
  >
  > OK, rant over.
  >
  > -Sarra Wryght
  > <A

HREF="www.sixteenthcenturystitchery.com">www.sixteenthcenturystitchery.com</
  A>  (Elizabethan Dress Diaries, etc)
  > Live Journal: http://www.livejournal.com/users/loreleisedai/
  > _______________________________________________
  > h-costume mailing list
  > h-costume@mail.indra.com
  > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
  >
  >

  _______________________________________________
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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Fri Aug  1 13:24:34 2003
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From: "Saragrace T. Knauf" <saragrace@earthlink.net>
To: "'Historical Costume'" <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: RE: [h-cost] Bleh
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 07:14:49 -0700
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Status: RO

Gosh, I just have always taken my time to get stuff done.  I have one outfit
that is almost two years old and not complete.  Enjoy the process!  I must
be missing something.  Is there some thing about Pennsic in particular that
I should know?  I was planning on it for 2004-

As I recall Sarra, you have several lovely things to wear which show the
time you have put into them....don't be so hard on yourself!

BTW, I don't take anything Arnold says to heart when it comes to
construction...God bless her for her hard work and nice drawings...but as it
has been said before on this list...no one has all the talents to do
everything.  My motto-Mockup, Mockup, Mockup!

Sg

-----Original Message-----
From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com] On
Behalf Of LoreleiMorte@aol.com
Sent: Thursday, July 31, 2003 3:28 PM
To: h-costume@indra.com
Subject: [h-cost] Bleh


Informative subject line, no? 

Just wondering about those of you SCA costumer types, how the heck do you 
manage to make enough garb for Pennsic? I can't seem to get through a
frickin' 
under kirtle without it becoming a Project (TM)...that takes 4 weeks to 
complete. And now I'm staring at my farthingale with loathing and dismay,
because I'm 
not sure I believe in the Arnold "It's 10 inches too long...for the tucks!" 
theory about Alcega anymore....

Does anyone else feel like they "costume/research/sew" all the time but have

these tiny little wardrobes? I have one year to clothe myself for Pennsic, I

think I'm too anal to get it done. 

OK, rant over.

-Sarra Wryght
<A
HREF="www.sixteenthcenturystitchery.com">www.sixteenthcenturystitchery.com</
A>  (Elizabethan Dress Diaries, etc) Live Journal:
http://www.livejournal.com/users/loreleisedai/
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Subject: [h-cost] Henry VIII
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> Once, long ago, I read everything I could find about Henry VIII and
> his reign....

I still do. I'm particularly interested in 1525-1550 and grab all I 
can about that time period. Knowing the politics of the time often 
helps understand a lot about how the clothing changed during that 
time. And you'd be surprised at how much you can pick up about actual 
clothing if you are reading history. (And some of the newer books 
have photographs of portraits that I haven't yet seen, even in my 
perusal of the National Portrait Gallery Archives in London.)

Kat
<kat@redtrollforge.com>

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Yeah, more new books means more chances of finding portraits that
haven't been published yet, at least in books that make it my way :).  I
am dying to find a color picture of the portrait of the Gentleman in Red
that hangs at Hampton Court.  There is a b&w in Ashleford, but no color.
 They didn't even have a postcard of it when I was there years and years
ago.  Great blackwork on the shirt that gets lost in b&w.

A question for those who have researched H8;  how much talk was there
in the writings of the time about setting aside Katherine before Anne
came along?  My impression had always been that Mary was being educated
for the throne and if Henry was really desperate for a male heir there
never seemed to be any moves to find a way to legitamitize his bastard
son.  I always had a sneaking suspicion that Cromwell was also behind
the whole divorce thing, stirring up the politics to give himself more
opportunities.

Catherine
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From: Robin Netherton <robin@shell.nightowl.net>
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Victoria gone?????!!!!!
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On Thu, 31 Jul 2003, prairielark wrote:

> Can anyone tell me where to find out more about the "Vintage Fashions"
> magazine? --even tho' it may not address all of these, at least maybe
> it will fulfill my hunger for stunning photos & detailed studies of
> scrumptious garments.

Good question. The first issue was scheduled to be out in May, but I
haven't seen one. Has anyone else? The editor posted here to offer a free
first issue to anyone who wrote her. (I did.)

--Robin

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Sarra:

I haven't been to Pennsic for a couple of years. But I had/have separate
Pennsic garb. It's period enough for me -- a couple of tunic/gowns, sort of
based on the St. Louis shirt, all gores and straight lines. I wear them over
one of two shifts that are very tight for bust support, but not laced or
anything. I have little white caps to wear under straw hats, or a
lightweight hood. And everyone who knows me knows my wooden shoes, which are
great for camping! I don't care if they're not my period or country. Those
Dutch know a good idea when they see it.

My attitude is that it's CAMPING clothes, not a regular wardrobe. When I
camp for real, I don't wear my church or work clothes, I wear old grubby
stuff. Same at Pennsic or other camping events. But they're NICE old grubby
stuff just the same.

Gail Finke

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From: kat@grendal.rain.com
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> Yeah, more new books means more chances of finding portraits that
> haven't been published yet, at least in books that make it my way :). 
> I am dying to find a color picture of the portrait of the Gentleman in
> Red that hangs at Hampton Court.  There is a b&w in Ashleford, but no
> color.

The only color one I've found (so far) is in James Laver's Costume of 
the Western World, Volume Early Tudor 1485-1558, and is Plate 41. 
It's an old book and the clarity of it isn't as good as I prefer, but 
it is in color!

>  They didn't even have a postcard of it when I was there years and
>  years
> ago.  Great blackwork on the shirt that gets lost in b&w.

They don't do postcards and slides of the portraits the way they used 
to. It's very sad.

> A question for those who have researched H8;  how much talk was there
> in the writings of the time about setting aside Katherine before Anne
> came along?  My impression had always been that Mary was being
> educated for the throne and if Henry was really desperate for a male
> heir there never seemed to be any moves to find a way to legitamitize
> his bastard son.  I always had a sneaking suspicion that Cromwell was
> also behind the whole divorce thing, stirring up the politics to give
> himself more opportunities.

I've never seen any hint that Henry was thinking of setting Kateryne 
aside until Anne came along. I wouldn't doubt if a lot of it was 
Cromwell, as well as some of the others looking for a way to get out 
of the association with Spain.

Kat
<kat@redtrollforge.com>


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From: "Bice d'Este" <wantstobecorsetted1@hotmail.com>
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	<00b501c3557d$55235e00$6542a6d0@castlebooks>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Fans (cross post)
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 23:45:39 -0400
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Thanks. I'm feeling stupid 'cause I didn't back up and I had a ton of great
links and fan links are so hard to get and ones about making them are even
harder to find.

Bice
http://www.jacquelinejohnson.allhere.com/
http://www.livejournal.com/users/jaie/
http://calendar.yahoo.com/de_gustibus_non_est_disputandum7
----- Original Message -----
From: "Janet Davis" <castle@erie.net>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Monday, July 28, 2003 10:58 PM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Fans (cross post)


> You have my sympathies - first I got a new computer that needed all my old
> stuff put in then 5 months later the new computer had to be wiped and
> reformated.  Anyway, I think this link came from this list this winter:
> http://www.vertetsable.com/demos_fans.htm
>
> Janet
>
> Janet Davis
> Castle Furnishings
> http://www.medievalbookstore.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
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>
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 No word yet here. Someone related to the new vintage magazine made several
announcements about the its release on H-Cost & 2-3 of the other historic
costume/fashion lists. I am pretty sure she would have announced if the
magazine had been released...In fact, the e-lists were the only source I,
personally ever saw verifying this new magazine existing. Folks on several
lists are anxiously awaiting a premier issue!
Deb R

>
> > Can anyone tell me where to find out more about the "Vintage Fashions"
> > magazine? --even tho' it may not address all of these, at least maybe
> > it will fulfill my hunger for stunning photos & detailed studies of
> > scrumptious garments.

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From: Jean Waddie <anne@montgomerie.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] "Art On Demand"
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Oooooooh!  I didn't spot that one.  I was so frustrated when we visited 
the National Gallery, that they had so few prints of my favourite 
periods.  Hmm - that overnight stop with my parents sometime in 
September just added an extra day to go up to town!

Jean


Linda Walton <linda.walton@dsl.pipex.com> wrote
>Just this week, there was a local (to me) news item about London's National
>Gallery.  It seems that they've taken digital scans of all their pictures
>and have begun to make special prints of any of them for customers.  Now we
>will be able to study them in much more detail than ordinary prints.
>
>Here's more about it, for those who understand the technicalities:-
>http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/3101207.stm
>
>It's so long since I've been there that I can't remember what they have, or
>whether my favourites are there or in another Art Gallery, but the National
>Portrait Gallery isn't the only place with useful pictures of people.
>Anyway, it's suddenly moved right up my list of places to visit - and shop.
>
>Linda Walton,
>(in High Wycombe, Buckinghamshire, U.K.).
>
>_______________________________________________
>h-costume mailing list
>h-costume@mail.indra.com
>http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

-- 
Jean Waddie
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From: Catherine Olanich Raymond <cathy@thyrsus.com>
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Victoria gone?????!!!!!
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 18:49:50 -0400
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On Friday 01 August 2003 12:32 pm, Robin Netherton wrote:
> On Thu, 31 Jul 2003, prairielark wrote:
> > Can anyone tell me where to find out more about the "Vintage Fashions"
> > magazine? --even tho' it may not address all of these, at least maybe
> > it will fulfill my hunger for stunning photos & detailed studies of
> > scrumptious garments.
>
> Good question. The first issue was scheduled to be out in May, but I
> haven't seen one. Has anyone else? The editor posted here to offer a free
> first issue to anyone who wrote her. (I did.)

I wrote her also and no, I haven't seen any issue yet.


-- 
Cathy Raymond <cathy@thyrsus.com>

“No man is rich enough to buy back his 
past.”  Oscar Wilde

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From: Catherine Olanich Raymond <cathy@thyrsus.com>
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On Friday 01 August 2003 12:17 pm, kat@grendal.rain.com wrote:

> > A question for those who have researched H8;  how much talk was there
> > in the writings of the time about setting aside Katherine before Anne
> > came along?  My impression had always been that Mary was being
> > educated for the throne and if Henry was really desperate for a male
> > heir there never seemed to be any moves to find a way to legitamitize
> > his bastard son.  I always had a sneaking suspicion that Cromwell was
> > also behind the whole divorce thing, stirring up the politics to give
> > himself more opportunities.
>
> I've never seen any hint that Henry was thinking of setting Kateryne
> aside until Anne came along. I wouldn't doubt if a lot of it was
> Cromwell, as well as some of the others looking for a way to get out
> of the association with Spain.

My recollection is that before Anne, Katherine retained at least potential 
child-bearing capacity so Henry was still holding out hope of a legitimate 
male heir from her.  He began to get serious about Anne around the time 
Katherine had not had any pregnancies or miscarriages in a few 
years--sometime in the late 1520s.  Katherine would have turned 40 in 1525, 
and it would have been realized by then that her childbearing days were 
numbered, if not already gone.

By the way, Wolsey, not Cromwell, was Henry's chief minister at this time and 
was the person who was instrumental in negotiating with the Pope's men about 
finding a way to legally free Henry from Katherine without getting in bad 
odor with the Church.  Cromwell did not come to power until after Wolsey died 
in disgrace around 1530.  By then, the get-rid-of-Katherine campaign was well 
advanced, largely due to his efforts.  

I can't remember if Cromwell was even working for the King in the 1520's, but 
if he was it was under Wolsey, not as an important person in his own right.

-- 
Cathy Raymond <cathy@thyrsus.com>

“No man is rich enough to buy back his 
past.”  Oscar Wilde

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Subject: [h-cost] 15th/16th cen. peasant kirtle question
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>I just came back from the Getty Museum here in Los Angeles. They've got an 
>exhibit of illuminated manuscripts from the 15th and 16th century that is 
>phenomenal. By the time we got to the last room (which had the best stuff 
>in it) my eyes were glazed over, I was on sensory overload. <g>  The only 
>disappointment was that no picture taking was allowed. Darn!!

I've got one question that maybe someone can explain. Early 16th century 
Flemish peasant garb is not my forte, so I'm somewhat confused. In one 
illumination, the scene was of a rowdy group of peasants getting drunk in 
the foreground, and a table of pious, sober nobility in the background. 
There's a serving girl pouring ale for the peasants. She's wearing a 
typical kirtle, and the skirt is tucked up and out of the way, showing off 
her petticoat(s), This is what stumped me. Her skirts look suspiciously 
full to me, as if there were several layers of stiffened fabric underneath, 
but even more surprising than that was the top layer skirt - it was 
knife-pleated from the knees down! She also wore over the petticoat what 
had to be a dark belt with the tongue hanging down the front almost to the 
ground. The belt isn't unusual, to me at least, but the pleated bottom half 
of the petticoat was something I've never seen before.

Now, granted, as I said, that's not my time period, so I haven't made any 
kind of exhaustive study of garb of that era, but still looked out of place 
to me.

Is this petticoat unusual or commonplace?

Julie 

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Subject: [h-cost] Re:Victoria gone?????!!!!!
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I got a card yesterday, too, telling me that Victoria is gone and they were 
switching my subscription to Sunset Magazine for the remainder of my 
subscription time. That's OK, I guess, but the least they could have done 
is offered me a choice of magazines. I mean, what if I already subscribe to 
Sunset? They must have had alternate plans and/or magazines to offer.

Julie

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From: "chiara" <chiara@io.com>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
References: <5.2.0.9.0.20030801165224.00a4e610@ipostoffice.worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re:Victoria gone?????!!!!!
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 19:39:05 -0500
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I would rather have a subscription to the jewelry and beading magazine I got
a post card for once myself. :(

Chiara
----- Original Message ----- 
From: <Kiloran@worldnet.att.net>
To: <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Friday, August 01, 2003 6:57 PM
Subject: [h-cost] Re:Victoria gone?????!!!!!


: I got a card yesterday, too, telling me that Victoria is gone and they
were
: switching my subscription to Sunset Magazine for the remainder of my
: subscription time. That's OK, I guess, but the least they could have done
: is offered me a choice of magazines. I mean, what if I already subscribe
to
: Sunset? They must have had alternate plans and/or magazines to offer.
:
: Julie
:
: _______________________________________________
: h-costume mailing list
: h-costume@mail.indra.com
: http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

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From: "Talia" <khanson@kc.rr.com>
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Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 19:43:43 -0500
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Subject: [h-cost] Setting no mail?
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How do I set this list to temporary no-mail?  Thanks!

Talia



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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Fri Aug  1 21:04:35 2003
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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Bleh
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From: Kirrily Robert <skud@infotrope.net>
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Sg wrote:
> Gosh, I just have always taken my time to get stuff done.  I have one outfit
> that is almost two years old and not complete.  Enjoy the process!  I must
> be missing something.  Is there some thing about Pennsic in particular that
> I should know?  I was planning on it for 2004-

Well, it's 2 weeks outdoors getting dirty, so most people need a certain
number of changes of clothes to feel comfortable.  And then, it's a big
event and you'll be meeting all sorts of cool people and you'll want to
look good, so you'll want to wear *nice* stuff.  And then you realise
that you want to wear something special for the Ball, and something for
such-and-such a party, but you can't wear the same thing twice... but
what if the weather's cold, then you'll need a warm gown, or a cloak...
and it just balloons like that :)

Last year was my first Pennsic.  I packed:

7 shifts
7 pairs of stockings
3 petticoats (2 cotton-linen, one flannelette)
5 kirtles 
    - two lightweight linen (one fitted, one loose)
    - one light-coloured medium-weight wool
    - one heavyish dark-coloured cotton
    - one lightweight silk loose kirtle (finished during Pennsic)
2 gowns
6 linen caps of various kinds
3 aprons
2 neckerchers
1 short cape
1 full cloak

I was pretty comfortable for 2 weeks.  I washed my linens a couple of
times during the time I was there, and had clean underthings every day
(and sometimes twice a day).  I probably could have done with less
kirtles if I'd had more lightweight woollen ones instead of linen and
cotton - wool just holds up better without needing washing.  And if I'd
done what I really wanted to do and had a washtub in my camp, I could
have cut back a little on underwear, and just done a handwashing load
every few days.  But you do still need a certain amount of stuff.

Yours,

Katherine


-- 
Lady Katherine Rowberd (mka Kirrily "Skud" Robert)
katherine@infotrope.net  http://infotrope.net/sca/
Caldrithig, Skraeling Althing, Ealdormere
"The rose is red, the leaves are grene, God save Elizabeth our Queene"
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Subject: RE: [h-cost] 15th/16th cen. peasant kirtle question
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 18:06:15 -0700
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Sounds very interesting....I've not seen anything like it ...but that
doesn't mean anything.  Any idea who the artist was?


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Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 19:18:02 -0700 (PDT)
From: prairielark <prairielark@herspace.com>
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re:Victoria gone?????!!!!!
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That's funny!  I was switched to "Health."  The toll-free number on the card to call if I wanted my subscription refunded was busy all this week, so I finally sent a certified letter to the P.O. Box address instead.  I'd just paid up a 2-yr. subscription in March.  Sigh.

Because of work & travel (I'm away from home as I type), have not had a chance to even leaf thru the June issue (said to be the last).  I talked to my husband last nite & he found it under a pile of mail for me so will anxiously leaf thru it for clues when I get home.

Phoebe

the prairie lark

--- Kiloran@worldnet.att.net wrote:
>I got a card yesterday, too, telling me that Victoria is gone and they were 
>switching my subscription to Sunset Magazine for the remainder of my 
>subscription time. That's OK, I guess, but the least they could have done 
>is offered me a choice of magazines. I mean, what if I already subscribe to 
>Sunset? They must have had alternate plans and/or magazines to offer.
>
>Julie
>
>_______________________________________________
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>h-costume@mail.indra.com
>http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

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Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 13:00:30 EDT
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: bleh
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In a message dated 8/1/2003 10:37:18 AM Central Standard Time, 
gailscott@eos.net writes:

> My attitude is that it's CAMPING clothes, not a regular wardrobe. When I
> camp for real, I don't wear my church or work clothes, I wear old grubby
> stuff. Same at Pennsic or other camping events. But they're NICE old grubby
> stuff just the same.
> 

That's what I need to do....just make a mess of kirtles-n-gowns, all the 
same, all FRONT opening. I have one teal linen underkirtle that's back lacing. 
Never again. Gonna have to Gold Key that mo fo. 

I presently have one wool gown (That I just ripped the shoulder treatments 
off of to redo)
1/2 of a wool gown (needs the skirt guards embroidered and the skirt attached 
to the finished bodice, plus the partlet and sleeves needs the embroidery 
finished)
1 rose linen kirtle
1 teal linen kirtle
1 purple linen petticoat
some skivvies/underpinings

OMG, I need to get to work...especially on underwear. I've been doing the SCA 
thing for, oh, 9 years..and have never, ever, camped.

-Sarra Wryght
<A HREF="www.sixteenthcenturystitchery.com">www.sixteenthcenturystitchery.com</A>  (Elizabethan Dress Diaries, etc)
Live Journal: http://www.livejournal.com/users/loreleisedai/
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	Fri, 01 Aug 2003 12:12:37 PDT
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 12:12:37 -0700 (PDT)
From: Angela Kessler <ivyharpdotcom@yahoo.com>
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
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Subject: [h-cost] Re: new magazine (was: Victoria gone?????!!!!!)
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I wrote to her recently and got a reply on 7/23 saying
that the issue was finished and she just got her own
copy in the mail that day, so mine should be along any
day.  I haven't seen it yet.  Anyone else?

-Angela


--- Robin Netherton <robin@shell.nightowl.net> wrote:
> 
> On Thu, 31 Jul 2003, prairielark wrote:
> 
> > Can anyone tell me where to find out more about
> the "Vintage Fashions"
> > magazine? --even tho' it may not address all of
> these, at least maybe
> > it will fulfill my hunger for stunning photos &
> detailed studies of
> > scrumptious garments.
> 
> Good question. The first issue was scheduled to be
> out in May, but I
> haven't seen one. Has anyone else? The editor posted
> here to offer a free
> first issue to anyone who wrote her. (I did.)
> 
> --Robin
> 
> _______________________________________________
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> h-costume@mail.indra.com
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From: Drea Leed <drea@nospam>
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] 15th/16th cen. peasant kirtle question
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This ruffle treatment to the kirtle is not uncommon in later 15th & early
16th c paintings...of course, when it comes to it, I can't think of any
particulars to point to. But I know I've seen it in at least six or seven
different paintings.  I think it's in the Grimani Breviary.

Drea


On Fri, 1 Aug 2003 Kiloran@worldnet.att.net wrote:

>
> >I just came back from the Getty Museum here in Los Angeles. They've got an
> >exhibit of illuminated manuscripts from the 15th and 16th century that is
> >phenomenal. By the time we got to the last room (which had the best stuff
> >in it) my eyes were glazed over, I was on sensory overload. <g>  The only
> >disappointment was that no picture taking was allowed. Darn!!
>
> I've got one question that maybe someone can explain. Early 16th century
> Flemish peasant garb is not my forte, so I'm somewhat confused. In one
> illumination, the scene was of a rowdy group of peasants getting drunk in
> the foreground, and a table of pious, sober nobility in the background.
> There's a serving girl pouring ale for the peasants. She's wearing a
> typical kirtle, and the skirt is tucked up and out of the way, showing off
> her petticoat(s), This is what stumped me. Her skirts look suspiciously
> full to me, as if there were several layers of stiffened fabric underneath,
> but even more surprising than that was the top layer skirt - it was
> knife-pleated from the knees down! She also wore over the petticoat what
> had to be a dark belt with the tongue hanging down the front almost to the
> ground. The belt isn't unusual, to me at least, but the pleated bottom half
> of the petticoat was something I've never seen before.
>
> Now, granted, as I said, that's not my time period, so I haven't made any
> kind of exhaustive study of garb of that era, but still looked out of place
> to me.
>
> Is this petticoat unusual or commonplace?
>
> Julie
>
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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Henry VIII
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At 17:17 01/08/2003, you wrote:
> > A question for those who have researched H8;  how much talk was there
> > in the writings of the time about setting aside Katherine before Anne
>  ...snip...
> > also behind the whole divorce thing, stirring up the politics to give
> > himself more opportunities.

It happened at about the same time. Queen Katherine had her menopause, and 
it became obvious that she would bear no more children. Henry was younger 
than Katherine, and had always been concerned with producing an heir. He 
had an affair with Anne's sister, but it is generally believed that Anne 
was abroad in France then. When she came home she wanted to marry Henry 
Percy, and Henry conceived a passion for her, but the alliance was 
prevented by Cardinal Wolsey, thus incurring Anne's lifelong emnity, but it 
is probable that Henry had his eye on her and had broken off the alliance. 
So it happened that Anne was around when Henry became aware that he must 
look for his heir elsewhere. Cromwell wanted Henry to marry abroad, 
preferably a French princess, but Henry chose Anne. There is no doubt that 
he was obsessed by her, but the obsession was not only sexual. Anne's 
intellect matched his, and until he turned against her he took great 
delight in that.
It's a close run thing. I've seen the account books of Thomas Cromwell (my 
tiny claim to fame is that I discovered that it was Cromwell who originally 
employed Holbein at the English court, not Henry) and there are no 
references to it there. Other paperwork of the period is hard to come by, 
especially private letters, because of the age of the correspondence and a 
lot of it is still in private hands, but certainly the appearance of Anne 
at court and Henry's decision to obtain an annulment (NOT a divorce!) 
occurred at around the same time.

  I wouldn't doubt if a lot of it was
>Cromwell, as well as some of the others looking for a way to get out
>of the association with Spain.

Wolsey outlived his usefulness, and Cromwell, the Machiavellian pragmatist, 
was ready to take over. He was the best servant Henry could have hoped for, 
but when he tried to overstep the mark, his days were numbered. Henry was 
the ultimate alpha male.


Lynne Connolly, GSOLFOT
Award winning Historical Romance author.
The Richard and Rose books from <http://www.novelbooksinc.com/>Novelbooks Inc.
YORKSHIRE, DEVONSHIRE and now VENICE
VANESSA from <http://www.awe-struck.net/>Awe-Struck books
http://www.geocities.com/lynne_connolly2001/  

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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Sat Aug  2 10:31:03 2003
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From: "Lisa Sinervo" <Lisa-list@threadneedlest.com>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Lion King Tickets
Date: Sat, 2 Aug 2003 07:20:56 -0700
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TKTS is about the only way I know of for an outsider to get discount theatre
tickets and I used to work for a ticket agency in New York quite a number of
years back.  Sometimes the box offices will sell student discount tickets,
especially to mantinees, in the nosebleed section but at least you get to
sit down, top shows included.  A hotel package can give you an overall good
deal, but you will pay more over all too.  Ticket agencies nearly always
cost more because they pay full price from the box office like anyone else
and add their service change on, so if the box office is giving you $100 and
you don't have a group that you can attach yourself to and you want to see
the show, you're probably going to have to pay.  Finding a group might help
if that group bought their tickets directly from the box office is about the
only way I know of to get a price break and it was pretty slim, but 9/11
might have changed all that now.

The box offices give people in the industry free tickets so they can sell
their shows with some first hand knowledge, maybe you could chat up the box
office attendent! :)  I used to go to the theatre 2 or 3 times a week.  It
was a super perk.

Good luck!

Lisa



----- Original Message -----
From: "Penny Ladnier" <penny@costumegallery.com>
To: "h-costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Wednesday, July 30, 2003 9:57 PM
Subject: [h-cost] Lion King Tickets


> Does anyone know of a cheaper way to get tickets to The Lion King on
> Broadway?  The tickets through the box office for the Orchestra area are
> $100.  You can't do the mid-day rush for cheaper tickets for this show
> except for Standing Room Only.
>
> Penny Ladnier
> Owner, The Costume Gallery & Costume Classroom
> www.costumegallery.com
> www.costumeclassroom.com
>
>
> [This E-mail was scanned for viruses by Plugit.com Virus Scanners
(http://www.plugit.com)]
>
> _______________________________________________
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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] 15th/16th cen. peasant kirtle question
In-Reply-To: <002401c35892$47efc030$6501a8c0@SG01>
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Saragrace wrote:
> Sounds very interesting....I've not seen anything like it ...but that
> doesn't mean anything.  Any idea who the artist was?

Isn't this the now-slightly-notorious style copied (without
explanation/documentation) in that "Medieval Tailors Assistant" book?

K.
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Subject: [h-cost] 2000 year old cosmetic oinment discovered
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I heard about this on NPR (National Public Radio for those of you accross
the ponds).  Thought you might be interested.  Apparently there are
fingermarks in the oinment.
 
http://www.unsolvedmysteries.com/usm350549.html
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From: "Saragrace T. Knauf" <saragrace@earthlink.net>
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Subject: [h-cost] 
	Medieval Tailors Assistant...Was:15th/16th cen. peasant kirtle
	question
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I wondered that myself....

-----Original Message-----
From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com] On
Behalf Of Kirrily Robert
Sent: Saturday, August 02, 2003 10:19 AM
To: Historical Costume
Subject: Re: [h-cost] 15th/16th cen. peasant kirtle question


Saragrace wrote:
> Sounds very interesting....I've not seen anything like it ...but that 
> doesn't mean anything.  Any idea who the artist was?

Isn't this the now-slightly-notorious style copied (without
explanation/documentation) in that "Medieval Tailors Assistant" book?

K.
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Subject: [h-cost] Vintage Fashion Mag...Wahhooo
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I just got my free copy of the first Vintage Fashion Mag...I have not yet
perused it, but it is already delicious to look at.  There are some
exceptionally executed costumes.  Gives us a goal to aspire to...yum. They
also review a couple of period films in production...I hope they keep this
section.  I am definately going to subscribe...this will be a real boon to
amatuer historical costumers.  I can't wait to read about some of you in it.

 
Sg
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I got my issues of Vintage Fashion on the 23rd; someone just emailed me that 
she had gotten her copy (and was really pleased!) so you should all be 
receiving your's in the mail, too.
I very carefully added all of your names and addresses to our mailing list - 
whichever ones I had.  Please give it a a few more days.  I suppose there's 
always a chance that someone slipped through the cracks and I don't want that to 
happen - so if you haven't received your issue in the mail by the end of the 
week, please let me know and I'll have one sent out to you straight from the 
publishing office.
Best, Julia
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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Sat Aug  2 17:57:07 2003
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Date: Sat, 2 Aug 2003 21:11:43 +0100
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Jean Waddie <anne@montgomerie.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] 2000 year old cosmetic oinment discovered
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We had pictures - it really is amazing, it looks just like any tub of 
face cream or ointment in your bathroom, with the fingermarks from the 
last time it was used.  I hope they give as much publicity once they've 
analysed it and find out what it was!

Jean


Saragrace T. Knauf <saragrace@earthlink.net> wrote
>I heard about this on NPR (National Public Radio for those of you accross
>the ponds).  Thought you might be interested.  Apparently there are
>fingermarks in the oinment.
>
>http://www.unsolvedmysteries.com/usm350549.html
>_______________________________________________
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-- 
Jean Waddie
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Subject: [h-cost] 
	Re: 15th/16th cen. peasant kirtle question (Kirrily Robert)
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>
>
>From: Kirrily Robert <skud@infotrope.net>
>
>Saragrace wrote:
>  
>
>>Sounds very interesting....I've not seen anything like it ...but that
>>doesn't mean anything.  Any idea who the artist was?
>>    
>>
>
>Isn't this the now-slightly-notorious style copied (without
>explanation/documentation) in that "Medieval Tailors Assistant" book?
>
>K.
>  
>
Yup.

The attendant in a "Bathsheba stepping out from her bath" has either a 
self-flounce or a transparent overlay from hem to below her knees on her 
undergown.  Not knife-pleated, but has narrow tucks at the top of it to 
allow it to spread below.  Can't remember the artist for the life of me, 
but definately a Northern Renaissance artist.

I've seen maybe as many as 2-3% of underlayer gowns depicted with the 
below-knee line, maybe a lower percentage.  This is mostly in manuscript 
illuminations and marginalia, as that is where most of the surviving 
pictures may be found.

This is mostly after an examination of French Painting in the Age of 
Jean de Berry:  The Limbourgs and their Contemporaries" by Millard Meiss.
Do look for Mr. Meiss's books; they've Lots of pictures.

Ann in CT


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Subject: Re: [h-cost] 2000 year old cosmetic oinment discovered
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In a message dated 8/2/2003 2:52:57 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
saragrace@earthlink.net writes:

> heard about this on NPR (National Public Radio for those of you accross
> the ponds).  Thought you might be interested.  Apparently there are
> fingermarks in the oinment.
> 

Fascinating!  Thanks for sharing.
Ann Wass
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From: Catherine Olanich Raymond <cathy@thyrsus.com>
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost]  Re: 15th/16th cen. peasant kirtle question (Kirrily
	Robert)
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On Saturday 02 August 2003 07:30 pm, Catelli wrote:

>
> The attendant in a "Bathsheba stepping out from her bath" has either a
> self-flounce or a transparent overlay from hem to below her knees on her
> undergown.  Not knife-pleated, but has narrow tucks at the top of it to
> allow it to spread below.  Can't remember the artist for the life of me,
> but definately a Northern Renaissance artist.

Is this the painting you mean?  If it is, the artist is Hans Memling:

http://www.kfki.hu/~arthp/html/m/memling/3mature2/25nobath.html

You can get the picture nice and large by clicking on the image.

I note that the same color fabric appears inside the v-neck of the olive 
colored gown, which suggests that the salmon colored garment with the line 
below the knees is an underkirtle of some kind.

I see what you all mean about pleats or tucks, but I'm not convinced that that 
is what's being depicted.  At most, I see a band of matching fabric loosely 
gathered onto the bottom of the skirt, possibly a way of getting as much 
sweep out of limited fabric as possible.

However, I'm no expert in this period, and would cheerfully welcome opinions 
from those who are.


-- 
Cathy Raymond <cathy@thyrsus.com>

“No man is rich enough to buy back his 
past.”  Oscar Wilde

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<<Is this the painting you mean?  If it is, the artist is Hans Memling:
http://www.kfki.hu/~arthp/html/m/memling/3mature2/25nobath.html
You can get the picture nice and large by clicking on the image.

I see what you all mean about pleats or tucks, but I'm not convinced that
that
is what's being depicted.  At most, I see a band of matching fabric loosely
gathered onto the bottom of the skirt, possibly a way of getting as much
sweep out of limited fabric as possible.>>

It's also nowhere near her knee which is what the original post was about.
It's a flounce on the bottom of the skirt. These are seen in a huge number
of paintings/illuminations, and it seems it was more common than no
flounce/turn up. While it may be a bit perplexing (self fabric? Turned up
from the raw edges of the hem? Decorative? Functional?) It is not so out
there as a flounce from the knee:
"Her skirts look suspiciously full to me, as if there were several layers of
stiffened fabric underneath, but even more surprising than that was the top
layer skirt - it was knife-pleated from the knees down! "

That is odd. And sounds rather different from the ubiquitous flounce at the
hem of 15thC kirtles.

I did come across a painting from around 1500 that was German with a seam at
the hip and the skirt gathered on from there, which is another interesting
variation (I do have it scanned in my files but I need to hunt for the
attribution;) ) I think I saw it in an illunination too... I may put these
online if anyone is interested. I may have mixed up two images so there may
only be one image of course;) It was at the time I was researching my own
burgundian ensemble so it more of a side interest than an actual focus.

I'd really like to know the actual reference for the knee down pleated
kirtle. It was at the Getty right? It might not be one of the ones online
but there are some at the site "Illuminating the Renaisance."

michaela
http://costumes.glittersweet.com


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Subject: [h-cost] Michaela - 15th/16th cen. peasant kirtle question
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I'd be interested in any pictures you can post....
Sg


That is odd. And sounds rather different from the ubiquitous flounce at the
hem of 15thC kirtles.

I did come across a painting from around 1500 that was German with a seam at
the hip and the skirt gathered on from there, which is another interesting
variation (I do have it scanned in my files but I need to hunt for the
attribution;) ) I think I saw it in an illunination too... I may put these
online if anyone is interested. I may have mixed up two images so there may
only be one image of course;) It was at the time I was researching my own
burgundian ensemble so it more of a side interest than an actual focus.

I'd really like to know the actual reference for the knee down pleated
kirtle. It was at the Getty right? It might not be one of the ones online
but there are some at the site "Illuminating the Renaisance."

michaela
http://costumes.glittersweet.com


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From: Catherine Olanich Raymond <cathy@thyrsus.com>
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost]  Re: 15th/16th cen. peasant kirtle question
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On Saturday 02 August 2003 08:57 pm, michaela wrote:
> <<Is this the painting you mean?  If it is, the artist is Hans Memling:
> http://www.kfki.hu/~arthp/html/m/memling/3mature2/25nobath.html
> You can get the picture nice and large by clicking on the image.
>
> I see what you all mean about pleats or tucks, but I'm not convinced that
> that
> is what's being depicted.  At most, I see a band of matching fabric loosely
> gathered onto the bottom of the skirt, possibly a way of getting as much
> sweep out of limited fabric as possible.>>
>
> It's also nowhere near her knee which is what the original post was about.
> It's a flounce on the bottom of the skirt. 

True.

>These are seen in a huge number
> of paintings/illuminations, and it seems it was more common than no
> flounce/turn up. 

That I hadn't known. I was only trying to find an image of the Bathsheba 
painting referred to by another correspondent.



[snip]

> I did come across a painting from around 1500 that was German with a seam
> at the hip and the skirt gathered on from there, which is another
> interesting variation (I do have it scanned in my files but I need to hunt
> for the attribution;) ) I think I saw it in an illunination too... I may
> put these online if anyone is interested. I may have mixed up two images so
> there may only be one image of course;) It was at the time I was
> researching my own burgundian ensemble so it more of a side interest than
> an actual focus.

If you have a URL for that painting/those paintings (whichever it is), that 
would be a useful addition to the discussion.


-- 
Cathy Raymond <cathy@thyrsus.com>

“No man is rich enough to buy back his 
past.”  Oscar Wilde

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So what does one have to do to get this magazine? Anne

-----Original Message-----
From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com]
On Behalf Of Saragrace T. Knauf
Sent: Saturday, August 02, 2003 3:06 PM
To: h-costume@indra.com
Cc: fashionreporting@aol.com
Subject: [h-cost] Vintage Fashion Mag...Wahhooo


I just got my free copy of the first Vintage Fashion Mag...I have not
yet perused it, but it is already delicious to look at.  There are some
exceptionally executed costumes.  Gives us a goal to aspire to...yum.
They also review a couple of period films in production...I hope they
keep this section.  I am definately going to subscribe...this will be a
real boon to amatuer historical costumers.  I can't wait to read about
some of you in it.

 
Sg
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Subject: FW: [h-cost] Vintage Fashion Mag...Wahhooo
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Try writing Julia at 'fashionreporting@aol.com'.  I don't know if you can
still get the free copies...but.  I will send you the subscription addy when
I get back from my riding lesson...

-----Original Message-----
From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com] On
Behalf Of Anne
Sent: Saturday, August 02, 2003 8:23 PM
To: 'Historical Costume'
Subject: RE: [h-cost] Vintage Fashion Mag...Wahhooo


Sg


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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Sun Aug  3 14:20:59 2003
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Subject: [h-cost] Vintage Fashion Magazine
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Hi, Everybody:
There have been a couple of questions about how to get the magazine so I 
thought it might be smart to post the info. here.  The first issue of Vintage 
Fashion has already gone out; for those of you who didn't get on to our mailing 
list, you can call our 800 number to subscribe or to get a single copy.  That 
number is 800-232-2224.  By the way, we've got a classified ad section which is 
good both for people with services or product to offer AND people looking for 
specific services or product.  We're going out to thousands of historical 
reproduction costume designers and makers as WELL as actual vintage 
couture/historical costume collectors and dealers...so you never know, someone out there 
might have an incredible dress from the early 20th, 19th or even 18th centuries 
that they're interested in selling or trading/barter. Also, if you've got news 
you think should be reported in the next issue of the magazine, please feel 
free to send us a press release or an email (fashionreporting@aol.com)
Thanks for your support, everyone!
Best, Julia
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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Sun Aug  3 14:57:17 2003
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Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2003 19:54:20 +0100
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Jean Waddie <anne@montgomerie.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Seams - to finish or not to finish
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I was on holiday when this thread was active, so didn't follow it up, 
however now I find it's more topical than expected.

I'm making a dress with a not-very-fulled wool, which is certainly going 
to fray on the edges which are on the grain.  It's too thick to use any 
finishing technique that doubles the fabric over, especially because I 
have double gores going into the armhole.  Constance and someone else 
mentioned fulling as a seam finish.  Did you mean that you can full the 
raw edge after making up?  If so, please can you explain how?  Or did 
you just mean using fabric that is sufficiently fulled not to fray in 
the first place?

It's not a fully hand-sewn dress, so failing other solutions I will just 
press flat and zigzag each edge, but it would be nice to use a period 
solution if possible.

Jean



ConstanceFairfax@cs.com wrote
>I've been involved in some debates lately over the 
>importance/authenticity of finishing seams.
>
>I was asked to judge an entry that was made of the most beautiful hand 
>woven (by the entrant), slightly fulled diamond lozenge wool.  When I 
>lifted the tunic, the front gore and rear gore were bulky in an odd way 
>and I turned to the inside & ALL of the seams were frenched. I talked 
>to the entrant later about other construction techniques and the 
>entrant agreed the frenching (unneccessary for this fabric) caused the 
>problems with the gore.  Someone had told the entrant that it was 
>proper to french those seams and if she did not she would lose points.
>
>*I* have also had people ask me "how did you finish that seam" - my 
>reply is usually, "I ironed it flat" and occasionally, "I ironed it 
>flat and fulled" The last time, the asker replied with a disappointed 
>"Oh.  Tsk. Tsk.  Tsk."  I haven't had any problem with the unfinished 
>seams of linen shirts raveling...or wool dresses.
>
>Certainly, there are instances that you'd want to finish a seam - if 
>there's high stress, if you're using old or fine silk, etc...but WOOL 
>on a non-stressed seam?  And, if you must finish the seam, why not do 
>it in a more documentable way?  Is this a "serger mentality"?
>
>Constance
>_______________________________________________
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-- 
Jean Waddie
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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Sun Aug  3 15:09:05 2003
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Subject: [h-cost] stabilizing fine fabric for embroidery?
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I'm making my first stab into Margo's patterns (hi!) by making the
high-necked partlet out of handkerchief weight linen. As suggested in the
pattern, I'm going to embroider before I cut out.

Question: This fabric tends to crawl and I think even putting it in the hoop
could pull it off grain. Is there such a thing as a temporary fusible web
that I can use until I'm done embroidering? I'm going to use fusible
interfacing on the collar so I'm more worried about holding the front of the
partlet "still" but still being able to remove the stabilizer for drape.

I remember a thread on this previously, but did not save my emails :( Please
feel free to reply off list.

Thanks in advance,

Allison T.

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SO...tell us more about the new magazine...What are the titles of some of the
articles? How are the pictures? Is it all costuming or are there antique
garments & textiles in it as well? Is it as great as the late, great 'Ladies'
Gallery'? Can't wait to get mine...
Deb

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From: "Cabbage Rose" <cabbagerose@sbcglobal.net>
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] stabilizing fine fabric for embroidery?
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2003 13:39:35 -0700
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There absolutely is. Both spray on and fusible support for embroidery can be
found at www.nancysnotions.com as well as a number of other sites.

angela
Angela F. Lazear
Cabbage Rose Costumes
http://www.cabbagerosecostumes.com
Theatrical Costume Design

"O, what a world of vile ill-favored faults
 looks handsome in three hundred pounds a year!..."
The Merry Wives of Windsor, III, iv - W. Shakespeare

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "A.Thurman" <athurman@cybergal.com>
To: "Historic Costume List (E-mail)" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Sunday, August 03, 2003 12:06 PM
Subject: [h-cost] stabilizing fine fabric for embroidery?


> I'm making my first stab into Margo's patterns (hi!) by making the
> high-necked partlet out of handkerchief weight linen. As suggested in the
> pattern, I'm going to embroider before I cut out.
>
> Question: This fabric tends to crawl and I think even putting it in the
hoop
> could pull it off grain. Is there such a thing as a temporary fusible web
> that I can use until I'm done embroidering? I'm going to use fusible
> interfacing on the collar so I'm more worried about holding the front of
the
> partlet "still" but still being able to remove the stabilizer for drape.
>
> I remember a thread on this previously, but did not save my emails :(
Please
> feel free to reply off list.
>
> Thanks in advance,
>
> Allison T.
>
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Sun Aug  3 17:02:20 2003
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From: "Lisa Sinervo" <Lisa-list@threadneedlest.com>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
References: <02aa01c359f2$493b5a10$336f6f6f@systemsfirm.net>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] stabilizing fine fabric for embroidery?
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2003 14:00:03 -0700
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You can do a couple of things, get a spray stabalizer or if that is not
enough, attach disolvable stablizer (or tear away but I personally hate the
tearaway stuff) with temporary adhesive (found in a spray can) which is what
I use for blackwork all the time on the machine. Works super, but then of
course there is more financial outlay for your project.

I'd also suggest the starch method if you aren't planning on sewing the
garment before you have a chance to wash the starch out.  I mean the cook it
up in a pot starch not the spray on kind.  It works great and costs hardly
anything at all.  I'd hesistate to sew a garment with heavy starch on it,
wash the starch out first.

Lisa

----- Original Message -----
From: "A.Thurman" <athurman@cybergal.com>
To: "Historic Costume List (E-mail)" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Sunday, August 03, 2003 12:06 PM
Subject: [h-cost] stabilizing fine fabric for embroidery?


> I'm making my first stab into Margo's patterns (hi!) by making the
> high-necked partlet out of handkerchief weight linen. As suggested in the
> pattern, I'm going to embroider before I cut out.
>
> Question: This fabric tends to crawl and I think even putting it in the
hoop
> could pull it off grain. Is there such a thing as a temporary fusible web
> that I can use until I'm done embroidering? I'm going to use fusible
> interfacing on the collar so I'm more worried about holding the front of
the
> partlet "still" but still being able to remove the stabilizer for drape.
>
> I remember a thread on this previously, but did not save my emails :(
Please
> feel free to reply off list.
>
> Thanks in advance,
>
> Allison T.
>
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume


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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Sun Aug  3 19:45:34 2003
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From: Sue Clemenger <mooncat@in-tch.com>
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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] stabilizing fine fabric for embroidery?
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I'd think your to-be-chosen stabilizing method would depend on what type
of embroidery you're going to be doing on it--machine? hand? counted
thread? surface?
I'd be more concerned, personally, about keeping stuff stable if I were
working on a machine (faster and more potential for damage/problems
before you catch the error and correct it), but that's me, and my
machine...
If you're going to do spots of embroidery and are concerned about the
spots lining up properly, maybe you could use one of the spray-on
stabilizers someone else mentioned, and while your fabric is all neat
and stiff, mark your embroidery areas with basting threads or
something--then your areas would all be lined up properly, and you could
embroider as needed (and wash out the stabilizer, if you wanted).
You could also use a tear-away stabilizer, or even one of the
dissolvable ones (brand I know is called "Solvy")--I've seen the latter
used to make machine-embroidered "lace" quite successfully.  Of course,
when using one of these stabilizers, you'd need to be careful with the
grain as you were attaching the stabilizer....
I use plain ole' handkerchief linen and an embroidery hoop for my
blackwork, and if the grain gets off when I shift the hoop to a new
part, all I have to do is loosen the hoop slightly, and tug the fabric
back into line, and then tighten the hoop again.  But I have the
advantage of being atrociously near-sighted (I can seen the individual
threads in the fabric), and the advantage of a linear embroidery style,
which you may or may not be working with.
Whatever you choose, good luck! And let us see pictures!
--sue, confirmed addict to everyone else's dress diaries....


"A.Thurman" wrote:
> 
> I'm making my first stab into Margo's patterns (hi!) by making the
> high-necked partlet out of handkerchief weight linen. As suggested in the
> pattern, I'm going to embroider before I cut out.
> 
> Question: This fabric tends to crawl and I think even putting it in the hoop
> could pull it off grain. Is there such a thing as a temporary fusible web
> that I can use until I'm done embroidering? I'm going to use fusible
> interfacing on the collar so I'm more worried about holding the front of the
> partlet "still" but still being able to remove the stabilizer for drape.
> 
> I remember a thread on this previously, but did not save my emails :( Please
> feel free to reply off list.
> 
> Thanks in advance,
> 
> Allison T.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
_______________________________________________
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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Sun Aug  3 19:50:10 2003
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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Seams - to finish or not to finish
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Hi, Jean.
I think they probably meant, using a sufficiently fulled fabric in the
first place....
What about covering the raw edges of your seams with a narrow binding
made of a not-bulky fabric? I know that binding (cut on the grain, not
on the bias) was sometimes used to finish edges like necklines...
Or maybe, finish the raw edges with a stitch like buttonhole or blanket
stitch, like a medieval version of serging?
--sue

Jean Waddie wrote:
> 
> I was on holiday when this thread was active, so didn't follow it up,
> however now I find it's more topical than expected.
> 
> I'm making a dress with a not-very-fulled wool, which is certainly going
> to fray on the edges which are on the grain.  It's too thick to use any
> finishing technique that doubles the fabric over, especially because I
> have double gores going into the armhole.  Constance and someone else
> mentioned fulling as a seam finish.  Did you mean that you can full the
> raw edge after making up?  If so, please can you explain how?  Or did
> you just mean using fabric that is sufficiently fulled not to fray in
> the first place?
> 
> It's not a fully hand-sewn dress, so failing other solutions I will just
> press flat and zigzag each edge, but it would be nice to use a period
> solution if possible.
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From: "Glenda Robinson" <glendar@compassnet.com.au>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
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	<GgD3+VCcpVL$Iw2$@montgomerie.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Seams - to finish or not to finish
Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 10:03:39 +1000
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Hi Jean,

You could also cover it with a strip of tape - I've seen/done this finish on
several 16-17th century doublets/cotes where the made-up sleeve is joined to
the made-up body. This doesn't add to the bulk of the seam. You'd have to
hand-sew it. I've used a hemming stitch without problem, and it took no time
at all.

I recently got a reel of 1/2" linen tape from a bookbinding supplier- not
dirt cheap, but it's SO fun to use.

Glenda.


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jean Waddie" <anne@montgomerie.demon.co.uk>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Monday, August 04, 2003 4:54 AM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Seams - to finish or not to finish


> I was on holiday when this thread was active, so didn't follow it up,
> however now I find it's more topical than expected.
>
> I'm making a dress with a not-very-fulled wool, which is certainly going
> to fray on the edges which are on the grain.  It's too thick to use any
> finishing technique that doubles the fabric over, especially because I
> have double gores going into the armhole.  Constance and someone else
> mentioned fulling as a seam finish.  Did you mean that you can full the
> raw edge after making up?  If so, please can you explain how?  Or did
> you just mean using fabric that is sufficiently fulled not to fray in
> the first place?
>
> It's not a fully hand-sewn dress, so failing other solutions I will just
> press flat and zigzag each edge, but it would be nice to use a period
> solution if possible.
>
> Jean
>

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	<GgD3+VCcpVL$Iw2$@montgomerie.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Seams - to finish or not to finish
Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 13:15:33 +1200
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> It's not a fully hand-sewn dress, so failing other solutions I will just
> press flat and zigzag each edge, but it would be nice to use a period
> solution if possible.

Herringbone stitch:) You'd be amazed how well it binds edges and stops them
from fraying yet is invisible on the outside if you have a sufficiently
thick wool.

This is what I used on my Burgundian:
http://costumes.glittersweet.com/burgundian.htm
and my latest Leyden inspired dress:
http://costumes.glittersweet.com/leyden.htm

Both wools are fulled enough to be blanket warm (one is a blanket;) ) but
not to the point of being like felt.

Herringbone stitch is documenatable and is just as fast as whipping the
edges, and makes things much neater.
http://www.viking-experience.co.uk/authenticity/basickit/annex3.html (fig
39e and 42c)
http://amol.org.au/recollections/2/1/19.htm scroll down.
http://www.florilegium.org/files/TEXTILES/sewing-msg.html
this is quite long so I'll paste little bits, and hope you read the whole
this so it's not too out of context:):
"
Margrethe Hald's book "Ancient Danish Textiles from Bogs and Burials"
notes seams done in running stitch, herringbone stitch, and twisted
buttonhole stitch. There are also viking-era items with a decorative
seam-joining done in "raised fishbone stitch" (a more heavily overlapped
version of herringbone). Edge-finishes include overcast (whip) stitch and
buttonhole.

Tangwystyl verch Morgant Glasvryn "

"Tangwystyl verch Morgant Glasvryn wrote:
>There are also viking-era items with a decorative seam-joining done in
>"raised fishbone stitch" (a more heavily overlapped version of
herringbone).

This is my stitch of choice for quick sewing, since it binds the edges at
the
same time as making the structural join. Looks good too.

Jennifer Geard
Christchurch, New Zealand "

hehehm a fellow kiwi doing the same thing, how cool:)

http://www.42nd-dimension.com/NFPS/nfps_stitches.html

http://www.cs.vassar.edu/~capriest/asvembroid.html

http://www.virtue.to/guest_authors/archaeological_sewing.html scroll down to
wool edge finishes (38)

It's a pretty invaluable stitch because it is so versatile. And you don't
have to worry about adding bulk etc.

If you work it closely and only take small back stitches that pick up a few
threads you can make it unintrusive on the outside.

michaela
http://costumes.glittersweet.com



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> Just wondering about those of you SCA costumer types, how the heck do you
> manage to make enough garb for Pennsic?

T-tunics. Without trim or anything.

Then when I have enough, I can start to make some beautiful pieces of
clothing :-)

Alternative method is to make a bunch of undertunics and change every day,
but always wear the same two outer tunics. That's what I did, because that's
all I had. And when my undertunics were all spent, I wore one of the outer
ones as an innner one.

Other method is to make laundry runs every three days :-)
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Michaela - 15th/16th cen. peasant kirtle question
Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 19:41:44 +1200
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Status: RO

> I'd be interested in any pictures you can post....
> Sg

I was right, I was getting two images muddled. It is indeed an illumination,
and she is wearing something orange.. so it's one image I think. I mean I
don't think I have two. Unless I saw one in Cite de Dieu I suppose;)

http://glittersweet.com/aDSCN1848.jpg
It is a big file for something so little, so I'm going to have to do some
file shrinking I think.

And of course this is actually Flemish most likely. I was thinking of
another painting that was German.

While it's true there is no line drawn as a seam at the hip, but the gathers
suggest that there is one. Unless of course the bodice has a series of
vertical pleats that are open from the hip;)

michaela
http://costumes.glittersweet.com

> I did come across a painting from around 1500 that was German with a seam
at
> the hip and the skirt gathered on from there, which is another interesting
> variation (I do have it scanned in my files but I need to hunt for the
> attribution;) ) I think I saw it in an illunination too... I may put these
> online if anyone is interested. I may have mixed up two images so there
may
> only be one image of course;) It was at the time I was researching my own
> burgundian ensemble so it more of a side interest than an actual focus.



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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Michaela - 15th/16th cen. peasant kirtle question
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Status: RO

Thanks for the picture--it helps!
They almost look more like lots of folds rather than gathers.  Like a
skirt version of some of the folds/fullness one sees in some of the
Italian garments on men (I'm thinking of the ItalianRen ones that look
like descendants of houpelandes.)  Could the effect be caused by the
insertion of a number of gores, all starting at *that* line around her
hips?
--sue


michaela wrote:
> 
> > I'd be interested in any pictures you can post....
> > Sg
> 
> I was right, I was getting two images muddled. It is indeed an illumination,
> and she is wearing something orange.. so it's one image I think. I mean I
> don't think I have two. Unless I saw one in Cite de Dieu I suppose;)
> 
> http://glittersweet.com/aDSCN1848.jpg
> It is a big file for something so little, so I'm going to have to do some
> file shrinking I think.
> 
> And of course this is actually Flemish most likely. I was thinking of
> another painting that was German.
> 
> While it's true there is no line drawn as a seam at the hip, but the gathers
> suggest that there is one. Unless of course the bodice has a series of
> vertical pleats that are open from the hip;)
> 
> michaela
> http://costumes.glittersweet.com
> 
> > I did come across a painting from around 1500 that was German with a seam
> at
> > the hip and the skirt gathered on from there, which is another interesting
> > variation (I do have it scanned in my files but I need to hunt for the
> > attribution;) ) I think I saw it in an illunination too... I may put these
> > online if anyone is interested. I may have mixed up two images so there
> may
> > only be one image of course;) It was at the time I was researching my own
> > burgundian ensemble so it more of a side interest than an actual focus.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
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Subject: [h-cost] Re: stabilizing fine fabric for embroidery?
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    In my opinion the best thing to do would be not to stabilize at all, not
to use a hoop at all, rather to embroider the uncut square of cloth on which
the parlet pieces are traced using a scroll bar frame. By doing so you won't
damage the fabric or the stitches in a hoop, as well as being closer to
constructing your garment in an historical fashion which only leads to an
upswing in your learning curve. I embroider all my garments, whether
historic costumes or my own creative interpretations for modern wear, on a
reproduction embroidery frame. But certainly you could get away with a
smaller, modern scroll bar frame. I think you'll be so very satisfied with
the results.

Regards
Lorina
Five Rivers Chapmanry ~ purveyors of quality hand-crafted cooperage
fine hand-sewn embroidered garments, historical sewing patterns & embroidery
supplies
(519) 799-5577, fax (519) 799-5418 http://www.5rivers.org  email:
info@5rivers.org

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From: "Lisa Sinervo" <Lisa-list@threadneedlest.com>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
References: <200308041204.h74C45Zm000130@net.indra.com>
	<006c01c35a8a$0a1d87c0$0107d1d8@lgsteph>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: stabilizing fine fabric for embroidery?
Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 06:46:21 -0700
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Lorna wrote:

>     In my opinion the best thing to do would be not to stabilize at all,
not
> to use a hoop at all, rather to embroider the uncut square of cloth on
which
> the parlet pieces are traced using a scroll bar frame. By doing so you
won't
> damage the fabric or the stitches in a hoop, as well as being closer to
> constructing your garment in an historical fashion which only leads to an
> upswing in your learning curve. I embroider all my garments, whether
> historic costumes or my own creative interpretations for modern wear, on a
> reproduction embroidery frame. But certainly you could get away with a
> smaller, modern scroll bar frame. I think you'll be so very satisfied with
> the results.
>
Oh my, I had a look at those reproduction frames you are talking about on
your site http://www.5rivers.org/ under Catalogue/embroidery supplies.  How
beautiful that frame is!  Looks like a photo of you perhaps under "garments
and textiles" too.  Drool.............

Lisa Sinervo


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From: "Saragrace T. Knauf" <saragrace@earthlink.net>
To: "'Historical Costume'" <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: RE: [h-cost] Michaela - 15th/16th cen. peasant kirtle question
Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 08:15:57 -0700
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Ah, I see...thank you.  Nothing much surprises me anymore...I keep coming
back to my Historian friend's quote..."If you thought of it, they probably
did too."

-----Original Message-----
From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com] On
Behalf Of michaela
Sent: Monday, August 04, 2003 12:42 AM
To: Historical Costume
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Michaela - 15th/16th cen. peasant kirtle question


> I'd be interested in any pictures you can post....
> Sg

I was right, I was getting two images muddled. It is indeed an illumination,
and she is wearing something orange.. so it's one image I think. I mean I
don't think I have two. Unless I saw one in Cite de Dieu I suppose;)

http://glittersweet.com/aDSCN1848.jpg
It is a big file for something so little, so I'm going to have to do some
file shrinking I think.

And of course this is actually Flemish most likely. I was thinking of
another painting that was German.

While it's true there is no line drawn as a seam at the hip, but the gathers
suggest that there is one. Unless of course the bodice has a series of
vertical pleats that are open from the hip;)

michaela
http://costumes.glittersweet.com

> I did come across a painting from around 1500 that was German with a 
> seam
at
> the hip and the skirt gathered on from there, which is another 
> interesting variation (I do have it scanned in my files but I need to 
> hunt for the
> attribution;) ) I think I saw it in an illunination too... I may put these
> online if anyone is interested. I may have mixed up two images so there
may
> only be one image of course;) It was at the time I was researching my 
> own burgundian ensemble so it more of a side interest than an actual 
> focus.



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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Mon Aug  4 13:18:18 2003
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Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 10:16:11 -0700
From: Shea Young <younganne@usa.net>
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [[h-cost] Vintage Fashion Magazine]
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Hi Julia,  just wondering if my copy made it out.  I haven't received
anything.

Thanks,
Shea Youngs
7107 N. Campbell Ave.
Portland, OR  97217-5613

JAzo478796@aol.com wrote:

> Hi, Everybody:
> There have been a couple of questions about how to get the magazine so I 
> thought it might be smart to post the info. here.  The first issue of
Vintage 
> Fashion has already gone out; for those of you who didn't get on to our
mailing 
> list, you can call our 800 number to subscribe or to get a single copy. 
That 
> number is 800-232-2224.  By the way, we've got a classified ad section which
is 
> good both for people with services or product to offer AND people looking
for 
> specific services or product.  We're going out to thousands of historical 
> reproduction costume designers and makers as WELL as actual vintage 
> couture/historical costume collectors and dealers...so you never know,
someone out there 
> might have an incredible dress from the early 20th, 19th or even 18th
centuries 
> that they're interested in selling or trading/barter. Also, if you've got
news 
> you think should be reported in the next issue of the magazine, please feel

> free to send us a press release or an email (fashionreporting@aol.com)
> Thanks for your support, everyone!
> Best, Julia
> _______________________________________________
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> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
> 



Shea Young ~ ~ ~ ~

"As you go the way of life, you will see a great chasm. JUMP! It is not as
wide as you think."  ~  Joesph Campbell



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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Mon Aug  4 13:29:43 2003
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Subject: [h-cost] Rondinella Olsen
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Greetings All,

I just got back from Costume College, (I had a ball, by the way.)  I was 
wondering if anyone knew how to get ahold of Rondinella Olsen?  If so, you please 
send me her e-mail address or ask her to contact me at this address?

Thank you in Advance,
Kit

If you walk a mile in someone else's shoes, do you get to keep them? - 
Kenneth Cole



Kit

If you walk a mile in someone else's shoes, do you get to keep them? - 
Kenneth Cole
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Subject: [h-cost] looking for Dawn
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Sorry for taking up the bandwidth -- Dawn could you e-mail me privately about Ghawazee coats? 
	Thanks!
		-sunny 

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        I signed up for the free copy and never got it.  Is it worth
buying from a newsstand?

Lalah
Never give up, Never surrender
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Hello all,

Two things (Well, sort of three):

First, for anyone working on clothing/costumes in the Asian cultures, eBay 
seller artmedia88 has three pages of books, several of which are textile in 
nature (I was searching for Elizabethan stuff but got distracted <g>)

I'm attempting to compile a list of authors of "costume" and historical 
clothing books.  Specifically, who to avoid, and who to cleave to.  Thus far I have 
a very small list.  It's a rather broad-reaching question, I know, but what I 
am attempting to do is put up a page on my website for beginners (like me!) 
who want to know who to avoid, and who's worth getting from the library or 
purchasing.  

Thus far, I have:
Avoid: Punch (satire), Rassonier, Iris Brooke, Kholer, and Herbert Norris
Sometimes: Vecellio (primary only for Italy)
Primary/good: Bradfield, Janet Arnold, Phyllis and C. Willing (or William?) 
Cunnington, Jane Ashelford

Small list!   Also, does anyone have any idea (and maybe a book 
recommendation) of whether Chinese textiles were imported to England during the Tudor 
and/or Elizabethan eras?

Christine
_______________________________________________
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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Mon Aug  4 17:57:18 2003
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From: "Saragrace T. Knauf" <saragrace@earthlink.net>
To: "'Historical Costume'" <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: RE: [h-cost] Costume/Art history Books
Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 14:55:40 -0700
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Yes actually, surprisingly I can!  The Hardwick Textiles by Santina M. Levy
has a picture of a Chinese Silk Damask cushion cover. (Figure 25 the back
and Figure 59 the front)  The back fabric is clearly labled as Chinese, the
front could be, but is not specified as such.

The immediate issue which will come up is whether or not a cushion cover can
be directly related to textiles used for garb.  There are several examaples
of garb where the textiles come from furniture....and vice versa...

Sg

-----Original Message-----
From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com] On
Behalf Of IceGirlNIN@aol.com
Sent: Monday, August 04, 2003 2:15 PM
To: h-costume@indra.com
Subject: [h-cost] Costume/Art history Books


Hello all,

Two things (Well, sort of three):

First, for anyone working on clothing/costumes in the Asian cultures, eBay 
seller artmedia88 has three pages of books, several of which are textile in 
nature (I was searching for Elizabethan stuff but got distracted <g>)

I'm attempting to compile a list of authors of "costume" and historical 
clothing books.  Specifically, who to avoid, and who to cleave to.  Thus far
I have 
a very small list.  It's a rather broad-reaching question, I know, but what
I 
am attempting to do is put up a page on my website for beginners (like me!) 
who want to know who to avoid, and who's worth getting from the library or 
purchasing.  

Thus far, I have:
Avoid: Punch (satire), Rassonier, Iris Brooke, Kholer, and Herbert Norris
Sometimes: Vecellio (primary only for Italy)
Primary/good: Bradfield, Janet Arnold, Phyllis and C. Willing (or William?) 
Cunnington, Jane Ashelford

Small list!   Also, does anyone have any idea (and maybe a book 
recommendation) of whether Chinese textiles were imported to England during
the Tudor 
and/or Elizabethan eras?

Christine
_______________________________________________
h-costume mailing list
h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume


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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Mon Aug  4 18:02:38 2003
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From: "Saragrace T. Knauf" <saragrace@earthlink.net>
To: "'Historical Costume'" <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: RE: [h-cost] Costume/Art history Books
Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 15:00:55 -0700
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Oh and btw, there are Eglish samples based on works from Ushak and Turkey..

-----Original Message-----
From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com] On
Behalf Of Saragrace T. Knauf
Sent: Monday, August 04, 2003 2:56 PM
To: 'Historical Costume'
Subject: RE: [h-cost] Costume/Art history Books


Yes actually, surprisingly I can!  The Hardwick Textiles by Santina M. Levy
has a picture of a Chinese Silk Damask cushion cover. (Figure 25 the back
and Figure 59 the front)  The back fabric is clearly labled as Chinese, the
front could be, but is not specified as such.

The immediate issue which will come up is whether or not a cushion cover can
be directly related to textiles used for garb.  There are several examaples
of garb where the textiles come from furniture....and vice versa...

Sg

-----Original Message-----
From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com] On
Behalf Of IceGirlNIN@aol.com
Sent: Monday, August 04, 2003 2:15 PM
To: h-costume@indra.com
Subject: [h-cost] Costume/Art history Books


Hello all,

Two things (Well, sort of three):

First, for anyone working on clothing/costumes in the Asian cultures, eBay 
seller artmedia88 has three pages of books, several of which are textile in 
nature (I was searching for Elizabethan stuff but got distracted <g>)

I'm attempting to compile a list of authors of "costume" and historical 
clothing books.  Specifically, who to avoid, and who to cleave to.  Thus far
I have 
a very small list.  It's a rather broad-reaching question, I know, but what
I 
am attempting to do is put up a page on my website for beginners (like me!) 
who want to know who to avoid, and who's worth getting from the library or 
purchasing.  

Thus far, I have:
Avoid: Punch (satire), Rassonier, Iris Brooke, Kholer, and Herbert Norris
Sometimes: Vecellio (primary only for Italy)
Primary/good: Bradfield, Janet Arnold, Phyllis and C. Willing (or William?) 
Cunnington, Jane Ashelford

Small list!   Also, does anyone have any idea (and maybe a book 
recommendation) of whether Chinese textiles were imported to England during
the Tudor 
and/or Elizabethan eras?

Christine
_______________________________________________
h-costume mailing list
h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume


_______________________________________________
h-costume mailing list
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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Mon Aug  4 18:06:43 2003
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Hi,

just got my free copy today.  Haven't read anything yet, just drooled over the pictures.  May ask for the subscription for my birthday this month.  6 issues per year, just from the ad's I'd say it's more of a professional costumer's resource.  But, that doesn't mean we can't use it.

Genie
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From: "Saragrace T. Knauf" <saragrace@earthlink.net>
To: "'Historical Costume'" <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: RE: [h-cost] Costume/Art history Books
Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 15:09:43 -0700
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Oops, that was supposed to be English, and also there are samples from
Bengal....IOW, there was lots of stuff imported from the far east.

-----Original Message-----
From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com] On
Behalf Of Saragrace T. Knauf
Sent: Monday, August 04, 2003 3:01 PM
To: 'Historical Costume'
Subject: RE: [h-cost] Costume/Art history Books


Oh and btw, there are Eglish samples based on works from Ushak and Turkey..

-----Original Message-----
From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com] On
Behalf Of Saragrace T. Knauf
Sent: Monday, August 04, 2003 2:56 PM
To: 'Historical Costume'
Subject: RE: [h-cost] Costume/Art history Books


Yes actually, surprisingly I can!  The Hardwick Textiles by Santina M. Levy
has a picture of a Chinese Silk Damask cushion cover. (Figure 25 the back
and Figure 59 the front)  The back fabric is clearly labled as Chinese, the
front could be, but is not specified as such.

The immediate issue which will come up is whether or not a cushion cover can
be directly related to textiles used for garb.  There are several examaples
of garb where the textiles come from furniture....and vice versa...

Sg

-----Original Message-----
From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com] On
Behalf Of IceGirlNIN@aol.com
Sent: Monday, August 04, 2003 2:15 PM
To: h-costume@indra.com
Subject: [h-cost] Costume/Art history Books


Hello all,

Two things (Well, sort of three):

First, for anyone working on clothing/costumes in the Asian cultures, eBay 
seller artmedia88 has three pages of books, several of which are textile in 
nature (I was searching for Elizabethan stuff but got distracted <g>)

I'm attempting to compile a list of authors of "costume" and historical 
clothing books.  Specifically, who to avoid, and who to cleave to.  Thus far
I have 
a very small list.  It's a rather broad-reaching question, I know, but what
I 
am attempting to do is put up a page on my website for beginners (like me!) 
who want to know who to avoid, and who's worth getting from the library or 
purchasing.  

Thus far, I have:
Avoid: Punch (satire), Rassonier, Iris Brooke, Kholer, and Herbert Norris
Sometimes: Vecellio (primary only for Italy)
Primary/good: Bradfield, Janet Arnold, Phyllis and C. Willing (or William?) 
Cunnington, Jane Ashelford

Small list!   Also, does anyone have any idea (and maybe a book 
recommendation) of whether Chinese textiles were imported to England during
the Tudor 
and/or Elizabethan eras?

Christine
_______________________________________________
h-costume mailing list
h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume


_______________________________________________
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From: Sheryl Nance-Durst <sherylnd@kc.rr.com>
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Subject: [h-cost] great online books!
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I don't know if anyone has posted this link before, but it's so
great I had to mention it.
Cornell University has put on line the full text of hundreds of
home economics books from 1850 to 1950. This includes
dozens of historical books on textiles
and dressmaking! The books are viewable in their entirety
as images. Or you can download them as text. They are
supposed to be searchable as well (but I haven't tested it).

http://hearth.library.cornell.edu/h/hearth/

Hope you like this one as much as I did!
Sheryl Nance-Durst



A few of the costume and textile-related titles available (and this is
just in the A's!) --

Abrahams, Ethel Beatrice. Greek dress; a study of the costumes worn in
ancient Greece, [1908]

All about dress; being the story of the dress and textile trades.
[1913].

Allinson, May. Dressmaking as a trade for women in Massachusetts [1916.]

Amateur's costume book Guptill, Elizabeth F. [c1917]

The American cotton spinner and managers' and carders' guide; a
practical treatise on cotton spinning; ... Baird, Robert H. [1863]

American dressmaking step by step; containing complete, concise,
up-to-date, and ... Coates, Lydia Trattles. [1917].

Approved methods for home laundering Vail, Mary Beals. [c1906]

Aprons and house dresses Kneeland, Natalie. [1925].

The art and practice of laundry work; for students and teachers...
Rankin, Margaret Cuthbert. [1905]

The art of cleaning, dyeing, scouring, and finishing, on the most
approved English and French methods; to which is added a list of prices,
also abstracts... Love, Thomas. [1855].

The art of dressing well; a complete guide to economy, style and
propriety ... Frost, S. Annie. [1870]

The art of rearing silk-worms Dandolo, Vincenzo. [1825].

Austin, William E. Principles and practice of fur dressing and fur
dyeing [1922].

Australasian sheep & wool; a practical and theoretical treatise
Hawkesworth, Alfred. [1920].


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From: "Five Rivers" <info@5rivers.org>
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Subject: [h-cost] Re: stabilizing fine fabric for embroidery?
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Lisa wrote:
> Oh my, I had a look at those reproduction frames you are talking about on
> your site http://www.5rivers.org/ under Catalogue/embroidery supplies.
How
> beautiful that frame is!

    Thanks! I use that frame all the time. At the moment I have two panels
for a series of four wall hangings I'm embroidering in the Celtic theme of
Earth, Wind, Fire Water. Earth is done. I'm working on Fire, have Wind on
the frame, and have yet to actually set to paper my concept for Water. No
photos yet, sorry. Love working on that frame. I'll never go back to hoops
or small frames again. Course, I tend to paint with a large brush and in
technicolour. ;-)

Looks like a photo of you perhaps under "garments
> and textiles" too.  Drool.............

    That's the reproduction waistcoat I did, although there's no person in
it. Unfortunately the photo is not that great. Sigh. But my thanks for your
sentiment. :-)

Regards
Lorina
Five Rivers Chapmanry ~ purveyors of quality hand-crafted cooperage
fine hand-sewn embroidered garments, historical sewing patterns & embroidery
supplies
(519) 799-5577, fax (519) 799-5418 http://www.5rivers.org  email:
info@5rivers.org

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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Costume/Art history Books
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In a message dated 8/4/2003 5:29:31 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
IceGirlNIN@aol.com writes:

> Willing 

It's "Willet," actually.  And I would not totally dismiss Kohler.  He has a 
couple of really helpful pictures and diagrams for early 19th century.

As to others, are you looking for general books?  There are several good 
books that are specific to the 18th and early 19th centuries.
Ann Wass
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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Tue Aug  5 00:24:03 2003
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Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 21:14:27 -0700
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Chris Laning <claning@igc.org>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] stabilizing fine fabric for embroidery?
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At 5:45 PM -0600 8/3/03, Sue Clemenger wrote:
>If you're going to do spots of embroidery and are concerned about the
>spots lining up properly, maybe you could use one of the spray-on
>stabilizers someone else mentioned, and while your fabric is all neat
>and stiff, mark your embroidery areas with basting threads or
>something--then your areas would all be lined up properly, and you could
>embroider as needed (and wash out the stabilizer, if you wanted).
>You could also use a tear-away stabilizer, or even one of the
>dissolvable ones (brand I know is called "Solvy")--I've seen the latter
>used to make machine-embroidered "lace" quite successfully.  Of course,
>when using one of these stabilizers, you'd need to be careful with the
>grain as you were attaching the stabilizer....

That's what I'm trying with the latest project. I was lucky enough to 
find some fine, rather loosely woven 100% linen with lengthwise 
stripes of open "holes" every inch (machine made, but I plan to 
overstitch them). It's close enough to evenweave that I'm planning a 
partlet and sleeves with lines of blackwork. It's going to be a bit 
fragile, but experimentation shows me that the grain doesn't get 
distorted if I just handle the stuff or wash it on "gentle," so I 
think it will be a usable garment.

However with the loose weave, I very quickly discovered that it's 
almost impossible to embroider on it without tugging threads out of 
place in the process of stitching. So I've basted a bit of 
heavyweight "Solvy" to the back of my test piece, and it's working 
splendidly. I should try the "heavy starch" treatment too -- the 
drawback to the Solvy is that I can't work on the piece at "period" 
events because when you turn it over there is this layer of "plastic" 
on the back. (But I have plenty of other stuff I can do at events 
anyway -- I'm actually trying to *finish* a cushion cover.)

I don't trust any of the "tear-away" stabilizers either. My 
experience with them is that they don't tear away completely but 
leave little bits behind -- and since the most recent one I tried was 
a "nonwoven" type, I couldn't pull the bits out with tweezers either 
because they don't come apart into loose threads.
-- 
_________________________________________________________
O    Chris Laning
|     <claning@igc.org>
+    Davis, California
_________________________________________________________
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From: Dawn Jacobson <dme_maud@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] "Art On Demand"
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At 07:54 AM 8/1/2003 +0100, you wrote:
>Just this week, there was a local (to me) news item about London's National
>Gallery.  It seems that they've taken digital scans of all their pictures
>and have begun to make special prints of any of them for customers.  Now we
>will be able to study them in much more detail than ordinary prints.
>
>Here's more about it, for those who understand the technicalities:-
>http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/3101207.stm
>
>It's so long since I've been there that I can't remember what they have, or
>whether my favourites are there or in another Art Gallery, but the National
>Portrait Gallery isn't the only place with useful pictures of people.
>Anyway, it's suddenly moved right up my list of places to visit - and shop.
>
>Linda Walton,
>(in High Wycombe, Buckinghamshire, U.K.).

I'm answering this late because I'm just starting to wade through my 
e-mail, but oh, wow! I went to the National Gallery's web site, and the 
prints aren't even that expensive, especially if they're very high 
resolution (lots of detail).

I'm looking forward to finding out what's available.

Dawn

Dawn Jacobson
Vallejo, CA, USA

Clothes are the costumes we wear every day. 
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Costume/Art history Books
From: Agnes Gawne <gawne@mac.com>
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Much snippage but I have a  tidbit of info that might be pertinent:

The Metropolitan Museum in NYC has a garment that you can see on their
website - they call it a cape used in France in the 16th century but made in
China  from Chinese silk.

http://metmuseum.org/collections/view1.asp?dep=8&full=0&item=06%2E941

Not England but it may be a clue.

Agnes
> Also, does anyone have any idea (and maybe a book
> recommendation) of whether Chinese textiles were imported to England during
> the Tudor 
> and/or Elizabethan eras?
> 
> Christine
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To: historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Dawn Jacobson <dme_maud@pacbell.net>
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Subject: [h-cost] Vintage Fashion Magazine--A Review
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Vintage Fahion Magazine was much in evidence at Costume College last 
weekend, and I have a copy of the magazine in front of me. What follows is 
a review, so take it for what it's worth (as with any review).

To start, it's a very pretty publication. It's larger than average size 
(this may be a problem if you store your magazines in periodical boxes), 
and the first issue is 32 pages long, including front and back covers. 
There is a great deal of color, and production values are very high (IOW, 
this is probably costing a bundle to print). The issue's articles include: 
an interview with Dino Trapetti,  of Sartoria Tirelli, the Italian costume 
shop that has done a number of the "period epics" produced by Hollywood 
("Name of the Rose," "Age of Innocence," "The Scarlet Letter,") and a 
number of Italian opera productions; a market report on current sale of 
vintage fashion; a listing of period films in production with their 
projected release dates, production credits, and budget, and a closer look 
at one project in production; an article on a specific costume piece (this 
issue's is ceremonial headdresses); an article on someone that has 
influenced the area of vintage fashion (this issue's is early 20th century 
textile designer Ruth Reeves); a nod to living history with a piece on the 
exhibitions going on at Colonial Williamsburg; and a listing of upcoming 
vintage and fashion trade shows. All the articles are relatively short, and 
don't list the name of the contributor or author. Approximately 5.75 of 32 
pages are advertising and subscription information: about 1.67 pages are 
advertising/subscription information by Vintage Fashion or it's publishing 
parent, Renaissance Magazine, while the remainder is by 10 vendors.

While a very ambitious project, I have the uncomfortable that I am seeing a 
great deal of style without a corresponding amount of substance. While 
there are a number of articles, each is short, and not terribly in-depth. 
Most of the articles, at least in this issue, pertain to theatrical 
costuming. I'm also bothered by the lack of bylines; who is doing the 
writing? I would also have expected a great many more advertisers, 
particularly by such "heavy hitters" in the vintage fashion world as Lacis. 
While a very nice looking periodical (my compliments to the magazine's 
staff for its glossy look), at $50/year ($90/year for overseas 
subscribers), I'd rather spend an extra $20, join the Costume Society of 
America, and get their journal, Dress.

Dawn

Dawn Jacobson
Vallejo, CA, USA

Clothes are the costumes we wear every day. 


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Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 08:24:55 +0100 (BST)
From: =?iso-8859-1?q?N=20Kipar?= <nicolas_fouquet@yahoo.com>
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First of all, a big thanks once again to Saragrace who made the pattern for my
new wired coif, which I wore at the event this weekend (which was incidentally
LOADS of fun!) and which was taken from thos bazillions of Dutch genre
paintings.
I must say, it was pretty cool to have someone _that_ far away in the US help
with making a costume item to be worn in the Midlands of the UK. ;-) Long live
the internet!

http://www.kipar.org/society/events/lichfield03/nicole-kit.jpg

It looks just like the paintings, doesn't it? Perfect for hiding my short hair
without having to wear a wig.

Here are all of the photos, I think they are proof of how much fun my
girlfriends and I had. :-))) The rest of the photos are censored or non
existent *laughs!*

http://www.kipar.org/society/events/03-08_hands-on-history.html

Nicole

=====
Men Die. Cattle Die. Word-Fame Lives Forever.   ~ Old Norse Aphorism

Email: nicole@kipar.org
URL: http://www.kipar.org

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Whew! I've finally waded through all the e-mail, so about Costume College.

It was *good*. **** ***/**** (4 3/4 stars). Programming was really good 
(Thanks Albra, for teaching me how to do metal thread embroidery!) Lots of 
stuff to interest historical costumers--if I was to hazard a guess, about 
85% of the programming was dealt with historical costuming. About the only 
comments were that too many of the classes had limited enrollments which 
filled up instantly, and that some of the spaces might have been allocated 
differently (that's always a difficult one, because you don't know how 
popular a lecture or demo might be).

The Time Travelers' Gala Saturday Night was amazing: about 250 people, and 
*everybody* was well-dressed. It's been 9 years since I've been to a large 
timeline event, and I'm truly amazed at the general improvement in 
historical costuming. There were several people there that had never built 
an historical costume before the one they wore to the Gala, and they were 
truly stunning (in a good way!).

Needless to say, the shopping at something like this is exceptional: 
AlterYears had a large booth with lots of books, patterns, trims, and 
various supplies; Dragon's Treasure jewelers were there, as was the Vintage 
Pattern Lending Library, Truly Victorian, Hedgehog Handworks, and Atelier 
Mela, with some of the most gorgeous hats around (fashion forecast--ladies 
will be wearing better hats next season!)

I also had a chance to see a demo of LivingSoft's new Victorian Dress Shop 
software. It's an interesting concept: they've digitized about 35 pieces of 
a Victorian wardrobe (IIRC, it includes men's, women's and children's 
pieces), and you enter in the measurements, and it prints out the patterns 
already fitted. It's currently going into beta testing, but should be 
available in time for Christmas this year. The gentleman that gave the demo 
mentioned that he thought it would retail for about $200.

The Monday after Costume College is normally devoted to shopping in the Los 
Angeles Fashion District; I did not go on the "Native Guide" tour, as I 
needed to take care of some additional business while down there (and I 
couldn't have brought back a roll of linen on the bus), so I went down 
myself. It was a little disconcerting to walk into a store and run into 
somebody you know, but I saw people picking up some beautiful fabrics and 
bargains.

I took a bunch of pictures, and will try to upload them next week when I 
get back to the Bay Area.

Dawn

Dawn Jacobson
Vallejo, CA, USA

Clothes are the costumes we wear every day. 


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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Photo of wired coif, made with Saragrace's pattern
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The coif looks great! Reminds me of the blackworked one in "The
Lacemaker."
Glad you had fun, too.  Looks like the boys missed a good time <g>
--sue, who wants ALL of the hats!

N Kipar wrote:
> 
> First of all, a big thanks once again to Saragrace who made the pattern for my
> new wired coif, which I wore at the event this weekend (which was incidentally
> LOADS of fun!) and which was taken from thos bazillions of Dutch genre
> paintings.
> I must say, it was pretty cool to have someone _that_ far away in the US help
> with making a costume item to be worn in the Midlands of the UK. ;-) Long live
> the internet!
> 
> http://www.kipar.org/society/events/lichfield03/nicole-kit.jpg
> 
> It looks just like the paintings, doesn't it? Perfect for hiding my short hair
> without having to wear a wig.
> 
> Here are all of the photos, I think they are proof of how much fun my
> girlfriends and I had. :-))) The rest of the photos are censored or non
> existent *laughs!*
> 
> http://www.kipar.org/society/events/03-08_hands-on-history.html
> 
> Nicole
> 
> =====
> Men Die. Cattle Die. Word-Fame Lives Forever.   ~ Old Norse Aphorism
> 
> Email: nicole@kipar.org
> URL: http://www.kipar.org
> 
> ________________________________________________________________________
> Want to chat instantly with your online friends?  Get the FREE Yahoo!
> Messenger http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com/
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From: =?iso-8859-1?q?N=20Kipar?= <nicolas_fouquet@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Photo of wired coif, made with Saragrace's pattern
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 --- Sue Clemenger <mooncat@in-tch.com> wrote: > The coif looks great! Reminds
me of the blackworked one in "The
> Lacemaker."
> Glad you had fun, too.  Looks like the boys missed a good time <g>
> --sue, who wants ALL of the hats!

Nonono Sue, if the boys had been there, the 'girls' hadn't had such a good
time! *winks*

I loved the bicorne, it was brilliant but so heavy.

Saragrace, your pattern will go to Sophie, she really wants a wired coif too
now, it's such a cute litle thing and so comfy to wear. Will send the final
mock-up pattern to you too, one never knows, one day you might want to do the
period :-)

Nicole

=====
Men Die. Cattle Die. Word-Fame Lives Forever.   ~ Old Norse Aphorism

Email: nicole@kipar.org
URL: http://www.kipar.org

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Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 06:13:14 -0700 (PDT)
From: KATHRYN WOLTERS <albrakat7@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Photo of wired coif, made with Saragrace's pattern
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
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Very fetching looking coif on you, Nicole:)
Albra

N Kipar <nicolas_fouquet@yahoo.com> wrote:
First of all, a big thanks once again to Saragrace who made the pattern for my
new wired coif, which I wore at the event this weekend (which was incidentally
LOADS of fun!) and which was taken from thos bazillions of Dutch genre
paintings.
I must say, it was pretty cool to have someone _that_ far away in the US help
with making a costume item to be worn in the Midlands of the UK. ;-) Long live
the internet!

http://www.kipar.org/society/events/lichfield03/nicole-kit.jpg

It looks just like the paintings, doesn't it? Perfect for hiding my short hair
without having to wear a wig.

Here are all of the photos, I think they are proof of how much fun my
girlfriends and I had. :-))) The rest of the photos are censored or non
existent *laughs!*

http://www.kipar.org/society/events/03-08_hands-on-history.html

Nicole

=====
Men Die. Cattle Die. Word-Fame Lives Forever. ~ Old Norse Aphorism

Email: nicole@kipar.org
URL: http://www.kipar.org

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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Tue Aug  5 09:25:23 2003
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Subject: [h-cost] Re: new costume magazine
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Thanks for posting the review, Dawn! I've been very curious about what the
magazine would look like.

I never sent for my free issue because I found out the subscription price
($50). I love magazines, but that is too much for me for six issues, no
matter how pretty they are. I'm not arguing whether or not the publication
is worth it, obviously I've never seen it. It's just not in my budget, like
many other fine things. I certainly wish the publisher well.

Gail Finke


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Hi, Everybody:
In response to Dawn Jacobson's post about our magazine, I want to clarify 
that there are bylines by contributors at the bottom of their pieces.  There's a 
"dash" and then their name in italics.  The stuff that's not credited was done 
in-house by our editorial team.  There's an implied suggestion in Dawn's 
review that we really appreciate:  we'll make sure to indicate WHICH editorial 
person wrote each piece.  Also, please note that we are very open to suggestions 
about how much depth you, the readers, would like us to go into.  In Dawn's 
review, she beomans the fact that the articles don't go into enough depth - 
that's great information for us, to learn that our readers want deeper coverage 
because, you see, many costume people would rather an article stay short with 
the space devoted, instead, to photographs.
In terms of advertisers (such as Lacis):  the number of ads will be growing 
quickly; most people want to see the first issue so they know whether the 
standards, production values and the look will be professional before they spend 
the money to place an ad.  We spoke with many, many advertisers who told us 
they'd like to see the first issue before they take out an ad.  We definitely NEED 
advertisers if we're going to grow, if the magazine's going to be longer (at 
least 64 pages), if we're going to be able to go down to monthly - which we 
ACTIVELY want to do, and if the articles are going to be able to go into greater 
depth and take up more space.  We also want to be able to start paying 
freelancers respectable wages for their writing, as many, many highly-qualified 
costume people (inclding h-cost members) have gotten in touch with us about 
writing pieces for us and we want to be able to say yes to them, get their valuable 
insights, and pay them a fair wage.
Also, we had a lot of good, in-depth material, that we couldn't include in 
this first issue because we could only print so many pages for this issue, so it 
will have to go into subsequent issues that have more pages in them.
Please feel free to email us a letter to the editor with any comments or 
suggestions and please continue to support us so we can grow in all sorts of ways.
Dawn - thank you for your insights!
-Julia
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	Tue, 05 Aug 2003 16:01:47 BST
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From: =?iso-8859-1?q?N=20Kipar?= <nicolas_fouquet@yahoo.com>
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Subject: [h-cost] 1890s Victorian beauty concept/ideas?
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My seamstress friend's big wedding (it's being filmed by channel 4) is this
year and we are all invited to come in costume, no matter which petiod. She has
been a re-eactor for many years and is making lovely histoprical costumes.

However, she is totally stressed out and asked me if I could possibly research
1890s beauty products/looks for her, because her wedding dress will be 1890s. I
told her that I'd try on this list, because really, this is a gold mine of
information. She also asked me to do her make-up (she's blind as a bat without
her spectacles) and I'd really like to know what look I should try to achieve:
pale? natural? I feel quite honoured that she asked me to do this for her, thus
I'd really really appreciate help in pointing me to the right direction (I have
NO clue whatsoever about this period).

Thanks in advance

Nicole

=====
One of the Three Baroque Love Goddess    ~apparently

Email: nicole@kipar.org
URL: http://www.kipar.org

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From: "Kim Baird" <kbaird@cableone.net>
To: "'Historical Costume'" <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: RE: [h-cost] 1890s Victorian beauty concept/ideas?
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1890's makeup, if used at all, was inconspicuous unless you were an
actress. She should look like she's not wearing makeup.

Kim

-----Original Message-----
From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com]
On Behalf Of N Kipar
Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2003 10:02 AM
To: H-Costume
Subject: [h-cost] 1890s Victorian beauty concept/ideas?

My seamstress friend's big wedding (it's being filmed by channel 4) is
this
year and we are all invited to come in costume, no matter which petiod.
She has
been a re-eactor for many years and is making lovely histoprical
costumes.

However, she is totally stressed out and asked me if I could possibly
research
1890s beauty products/looks for her, because her wedding dress will be
1890s. I
told her that I'd try on this list, because really, this is a gold mine
of
information. She also asked me to do her make-up (she's blind as a bat
without
her spectacles) and I'd really like to know what look I should try to
achieve:
pale? natural? I feel quite honoured that she asked me to do this for
her, thus
I'd really really appreciate help in pointing me to the right direction
(I have
NO clue whatsoever about this period).

Thanks in advance

Nicole

=====
One of the Three Baroque Love Goddess    ~apparently

Email: nicole@kipar.org
URL: http://www.kipar.org

________________________________________________________________________
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Back from Costume College
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Dawn, we looked around for you, but I never did seem to run across you 
in the hall.
I did stop and say 'hi' to everyone I saw wearing an H-Costume sticker, 
though!


It was a great weekend -- I'll have to write up my thoughts on it 
tonight, since I'm
late for my new pattern drafting class right now.  oops!


On Tuesday, August 5, 2003, at 12:59 AM, Dawn Jacobson wrote:

> Whew! I've finally waded through all the e-mail, so about Costume 
> College.
>
> It was *good*. **** ***/**** (4 3/4 stars). Programming was really 
> good (Thanks Albra, for teaching me how to do metal thread 
> embroidery!) Lots of stuff to interest historical costumers--if I was 
> to hazard a guess, about 85% of the programming was dealt with 
> historical costuming. About the only comments were that too many of 
> the classes had limited enrollments which filled up instantly, and 
> that some of the spaces might have been allocated differently (that's 
> always a difficult one, because you don't know how popular a lecture 
> or demo might be).
>
> The Time Travelers' Gala Saturday Night was amazing: about 250 people, 
> and *everybody* was well-dressed. It's been 9 years since I've been to 
> a large timeline event, and I'm truly amazed at the general 
> improvement in historical costuming. There were several people there 
> that had never built an historical costume before the one they wore to 
> the Gala, and they were truly stunning (in a good way!).
>
> Needless to say, the shopping at something like this is exceptional: 
> AlterYears had a large booth with lots of books, patterns, trims, and 
> various supplies; Dragon's Treasure jewelers were there, as was the 
> Vintage Pattern Lending Library, Truly Victorian, Hedgehog Handworks, 
> and Atelier Mela, with some of the most gorgeous hats around (fashion 
> forecast--ladies will be wearing better hats next season!)
>
> I also had a chance to see a demo of LivingSoft's new Victorian Dress 
> Shop software. It's an interesting concept: they've digitized about 35 
> pieces of a Victorian wardrobe (IIRC, it includes men's, women's and 
> children's pieces), and you enter in the measurements, and it prints 
> out the patterns already fitted. It's currently going into beta 
> testing, but should be available in time for Christmas this year. The 
> gentleman that gave the demo mentioned that he thought it would retail 
> for about $200.
>
> The Monday after Costume College is normally devoted to shopping in 
> the Los Angeles Fashion District; I did not go on the "Native Guide" 
> tour, as I needed to take care of some additional business while down 
> there (and I couldn't have brought back a roll of linen on the bus), 
> so I went down myself. It was a little disconcerting to walk into a 
> store and run into somebody you know, but I saw people picking up some 
> beautiful fabrics and bargains.
>
> I took a bunch of pictures, and will try to upload them next week when 
> I get back to the Bay Area.
>
> Dawn
>
> Dawn Jacobson
> Vallejo, CA, USA
>
> Clothes are the costumes we wear every day.
>
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
>

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Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 16:17:40 +0100 (BST)
From: =?iso-8859-1?q?N=20Kipar?= <nicolas_fouquet@yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: [h-cost] 1890s Victorian beauty concept/ideas?
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
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 --- Kim Baird <kbaird@cableone.net> wrote: > 
> 1890's makeup, if used at all, was inconspicuous unless you were an
> actress. She should look like she's not wearing makeup.
> 
> Kim

Thanks Kim, that's what I thought, but I wondered if there was more to it, a la
'greatest beauty was when she looked like a fresh May morning' or 'there was
nothing more beautiful than a woman who looked like a wingter sky' etc. You
know what I mean? 

Nicole

=====
One of the Three Baroque Love Goddess    ~apparently

Email: nicole@kipar.org
URL: http://www.kipar.org

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Subject: Re: [h-cost] what's your degree in?
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In a message dated 8/5/2003 11:30:42 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
alice@wonderland.com writes:

> But I was just 
> curious what
> various programs people on the list (especially those that work in 
> costuming)
> had gotten their degrees in.

I think there are several routes to go--a home-economics based apparel design 
program, an arts-based apparel design program, or a theater-arts program. 
Each, of course, teaches you a different approach.  I came from home 
economics (finally getting a Ph.D. in historic costume and textiles from the 
now-defunct program at the University of Maryland.)  I've also worked in theater.  I 
found I knew things they didn't know, but there were things I had to learn.  I 
personally don't care so much for the theater approach, but if you want to work 
in theater that is probably the way to go. 
I do research and make garments for living history interpretation as a 
sideline to my more general job at a historic house museum.  I certainly use some of 
the things I learned in my stints at the theater.  
One of the problems I have with working in theater, and if I offend some of 
you who work on the list, I'm sorry, but this is just how I see it.  The 
designer often renders a lovely design, but it is up to the cutter to figure out how 
it can actually be constructed.  (When I taught apparel design, on the other 
hand, the students had to produce sketches that made it clear where the seams, 
darts, and fastenings were--if they didn't, they had to do it over.)  I think 
it is vital for the designer to know what is possible and what is not.  Some 
do, but some seem to have a less clear idea.  (I understand that the same used 
to be true of some of the great couture designers.)  This is not true across 
the board by any means.
And a good theater arts program will give you knowledge of other things you 
need to know in theater, like lighting.
Ann Wass


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So, now that I have a two year certificate from my local community 
college, and
two years of prior university from the first time I went, I realized 
I'm probably
rather close to earning a bachelors, finally - if I found a program at 
which I could
apply a lot of those credits!    RIght now I'm thinking about the 
Theatre Arts program
at SFSU, because it's local and not too expensive.  But I was just 
curious what
various programs people on the list (especially those that work in 
costuming)
had gotten their degrees in.

I know this topic comes up about once a year, but hey, our membership 
fluctuates ;)

thanks!
.heather.

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Subject: Re: [h-cost] what's your degree in?
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I have two: Art History (concentration in Italian Renaissance) and Computer
Science.

Teena

----- Original Message -----
From: "Heather Meadows" <alice@wonderland.com>
To: <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2003 11:21 AM
Subject: [h-cost] what's your degree in?


>
> So, now that I have a two year certificate from my local community
> college, and
> two years of prior university from the first time I went, I realized
> I'm probably
> rather close to earning a bachelors, finally - if I found a program at
> which I could
> apply a lot of those credits!    RIght now I'm thinking about the
> Theatre Arts program
> at SFSU, because it's local and not too expensive.  But I was just
> curious what
> various programs people on the list (especially those that work in
> costuming)
> had gotten their degrees in.
>
> I know this topic comes up about once a year, but hey, our membership
> fluctuates ;)
>
> thanks!
> heather.
>
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
>
>

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I have two.  A BA in History, and a BA in English.  I've worked in
college-related costume and theatre, and done non-costume sewing for a
living, although not any longer, thank god, as it was causing chronic
problems with my hands.
Now I costume and needlework for the fun of it....
--sue

Heather Meadows wrote:
><snipped> 
 But I was just
> curious what
> various programs people on the list (especially those that work in
> costuming)
> had gotten their degrees in.
> 
> I know this topic comes up about once a year, but hey, our membership
> fluctuates ;)
> 
> thanks!
> .heather.
> 
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From: "Saragrace T. Knauf" <saragrace@earthlink.net>
To: "'Historical Costume'" <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: RE: [h-cost] Photo of wired coif, made with Saragrace's pattern
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 09:17:57 -0700
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>>Long live the internet!

Hear Hear! (sp?)

Nicole has given me all the credit, but I can tell from her well executed
coif that she had to modify it a bit to get it to look so good!  (It was
draped on one of those abominably small headed Styrofoam wig stands)

I have to say that I got the biggest charge out of knowing  that I was
working with someone who is German (my second language) in England on
patterns!! 

Wowza!  I sure look forward to my next international pattern drafting
challenge!

Sg

Did I ever say that I LOVE this list?


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From: "Saragrace T. Knauf" <saragrace@earthlink.net>
To: "'Historical Costume'" <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: RE: [h-cost] what's your degree in?
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 09:19:49 -0700
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I don't think I have ever seen this specific question before.

I have a degree in mechanical engineering  and a minor in philosophy with a
concentration (funny for a minor I know) in history and ethics.
I am starting this fall at Arizona State University (ASU)  for a post grad
degree (not sure if it will be a masters or PhD) in bioengineering.  I am
also getting a certificate in Scholarly Publishing and one in
Medieval/Renaissance Studies.  So when I am finally done, I will be able to
handle artifacts and say I had the training.....BTW if anyone is interested,
the Paleography class is a distance learning class so anyone can take it.

So none of that really is very interesting WRT the list.  My father, who was
a dramaturg,  taught me to sew starting when I was about 9.  (He and my
mother both were actors and directors in stage theater.  He did all the
theater arts stuff, but my mom stuck to the acting and directing part)

Over the years I took all kinds of construction classes, tailoring classes,
pattern drafting and worked in my dad's costume shop summers as a teenager.
I started historic costuming back in 1998.  I was going to take a draping
class at ASU this fall, but have a conflict.  I am working with the folks in
the theater department to work out a design studio arrangement.  If that
doesn't work, I will probably take draping at a local community college in
the spring.

Sg

It IS fun to read about all of us!  Thanks for asking the question!


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From: "Saragrace T. Knauf" <saragrace@earthlink.net>
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Subject: FW: [h-cost] Vintage Fashion Magazine
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Thank you for writing this to the list because I was wondering about all
those same things.  Thank you Dawn for asking them....I am so looking
forward to my next issue..I guess I'd better get hot and order it!

Sg

-

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From: "Saragrace T. Knauf" <saragrace@earthlink.net>
To: "'Historical Costume'" <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: RE: [h-cost] Costume/Art history Books
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 09:50:58 -0700
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Wow!  That is cool! Thank you!

-----Original Message-----
From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com] On
Behalf Of Agnes Gawne
Sent: Monday, August 04, 2003 10:19 PM
To: Historical Costume
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Costume/Art history Books


Much snippage but I have a  tidbit of info that might be pertinent:

The Metropolitan Museum in NYC has a garment that you can see on their
website - they call it a cape used in France in the 16th century but made in
China  from Chinese silk.

http://metmuseum.org/collections/view1.asp?dep=8&full=0&item=06%2E941

Not England but it may be a clue.

Agnes
> Also, does anyone have any idea (and maybe a book
> recommendation) of whether Chinese textiles were imported to England 
> during the Tudor and/or Elizabethan eras?
> 
> Christine
> _______________________________________________
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Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 11:15:43 -0700
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Carolyn Kayta Barrows <kayta@frys.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Bleh
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>Just wondering about those of you SCA costumer types, how the heck do you
>manage to make enough garb for Pennsic?

I never get to Pensic, but I have the problem in other centuries.  The 
solution id either to do all one period, and slowly build up a wardrobe of 
it, or to set a very long lead time, like for that event next year, and 
plan now to be ready then.  Also, try batch-making two of each garment at a 
time, in different colours.  That takes less time than making two separate 
ones, as it happens, and you end up with two of them when you're done.

>I can't seem to get through a frickin'
>under kirtle without it becoming a Project (TM)...that takes 4 weeks to
>complete. And now I'm staring at my farthingale with loathing and dismay, 
>because I'm
>not sure I believe in the Arnold "It's 10 inches too long...for the tucks!"
>theory about Alcega anymore....
>
>Does anyone else feel like they "costume/research/sew" all the time but have
>these tiny little wardrobes? I have one year to clothe myself for Pennsic, I
>think I'm too anal to get it done.
>
>OK, rant over.
>
>-Sarra Wryght
><A 
>HREF="www.sixteenthcenturystitchery.com">www.sixteenthcenturystitchery.com</A> 
>(Elizabethan Dress Diaries, etc)
>Live Journal: http://www.livejournal.com/users/loreleisedai/
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        CarolynKayta Barrows
dollmaker, fibre artist, textillian
          www.FunStuft.com

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Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 12:02:34 -0700
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Carolyn Kayta Barrows <kayta@frys.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Back from Costume College
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Status: RO

I'd never been to a Costume College, tho I'd been to other costume events 
(like CostumeCon and SCA collegia).  I didn't get into any of the limited 
workshops, nor did I go on any of the all-day tours.  I did go to several 
lectures and learned quite a lot of new stuff, like where to get a sewing 
machine foot that will help me apply miles of soutache to a costume I have 
in mind.  I wore dolls every day but Monday, when I went to San Diego 
instead of to the garment district (I didn't want to know what I'd be 
missing - the L.A. garment district is the second largest one in the 
country).  And I got to rub shoulders with lots of really knowledgeable 
people, all of whom were happy to share their expertise, techniques, 
sources, etc.  I attended the Gala Saturday night, and everyone there was 
splendidly dressed.  On the 6-hour drive back home my co-driver and I 
planned our next year's wardrobes.

I've already volunteered to teach three classes there next year:

The programming lady's eyes got really big and round when I offered to 
teach the "origami" German Ren. hat I 'invented' in 1971 (thanks for the 
prod, Dawn).  She said they had lots of requests for such a class but they 
didn't know anyone who knew how to do it.  I figure on a short slide 
presentation to cover the history of this hat, followed by passing out 
origami paper.  People will know how to do the folding in about 5 minutes, 
then I will show how the rest of the hat goes together.

I also offered to teach a 'fashion 'baby'' workshop.  Fashion 'babies' are 
(you already knew this) what they had before they had fashion magazines, 
and the workshop would start with a small presentation on the history of 
them.  Then each participant would get a pre-marked piece of cloth ready to 
sew into a fashion 'baby' of their own.  After sewing and stuffing, I would 
show how to drape patterns on these.

The other lecture I volunteered to do was an overview of needlework.  This 
would cover techniques like quilting (not patchwork), embroidery, smocking, 
maybe applique, maybe cartridge pleating, and maybe how to tell hand 
stitched eyelet or lace from machine-made eyelet or lace.  The lecture 
would be a really short demo of each technique, a sample of it to pass 
around, what periods to use the technique in, a list of books about it, and 
maybe a hint on having your sewing machine do it.  I might even throw in a 
few minutes each on knitting and crochet, with how to identify each when 
you're looking at it.

We'll see if they want these classes, and I'm going to start saving my 
pennies to be there next year to teach them.

>Whew! I've finally waded through all the e-mail, so about Costume College.
>
>It was *good*. **** ***/**** (4 3/4 stars).




        CarolynKayta Barrows
dollmaker, fibre artist, textillian
          www.FunStuft.com

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Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 11:15:43 -0700
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Carolyn Kayta Barrows <kayta@frys.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Bleh
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>Just wondering about those of you SCA costumer types, how the heck do you
>manage to make enough garb for Pennsic?

I never get to Pensic, but I have the problem in other centuries.  The 
solution id either to do all one period, and slowly build up a wardrobe of 
it, or to set a very long lead time, like for that event next year, and 
plan now to be ready then.  Also, try batch-making two of each garment at a 
time, in different colours.  That takes less time than making two separate 
ones, as it happens, and you end up with two of them when you're done.

>I can't seem to get through a frickin'
>under kirtle without it becoming a Project (TM)...that takes 4 weeks to
>complete. And now I'm staring at my farthingale with loathing and dismay, 
>because I'm
>not sure I believe in the Arnold "It's 10 inches too long...for the tucks!"
>theory about Alcega anymore....
>
>Does anyone else feel like they "costume/research/sew" all the time but have
>these tiny little wardrobes? I have one year to clothe myself for Pennsic, I
>think I'm too anal to get it done.
>
>OK, rant over.
>
>-Sarra Wryght
><A 
>HREF="www.sixteenthcenturystitchery.com">www.sixteenthcenturystitchery.com</A> 
>(Elizabethan Dress Diaries, etc)
>Live Journal: http://www.livejournal.com/users/loreleisedai/
>_______________________________________________
>h-costume mailing list
>h-costume@mail.indra.com
>http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume


        CarolynKayta Barrows
dollmaker, fibre artist, textillian
          www.FunStuft.com

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From: "Penny Ladnier" <penny@costumegallery.com>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
References: <20030805150147.27611.qmail@web41503.mail.yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] 1890s Victorian beauty concept/ideas?
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 15:58:40 -0400
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Nicole,

A couple of weeks ago, I put up an article on the Library about makeup in
1897.  You have access to the Library... go to
http://www.costumegallery.com/1897/ .  It is the listings near the bottom of
the page.

Penny Ladnier
Owner, The Costume Gallery & Costume Classroom
www.costumegallery.com
www.costumeclassroom.com
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "N Kipar" <nicolas_fouquet@yahoo.com>
To: "H-Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2003 11:01 AM
Subject: [h-cost] 1890s Victorian beauty concept/ideas?


> My seamstress friend's big wedding (it's being filmed by channel 4) is
this
> year and we are all invited to come in costume, no matter which petiod.
She has
> been a re-eactor for many years and is making lovely histoprical costumes.
>
> However, she is totally stressed out and asked me if I could possibly
research
> 1890s beauty products/looks for her, because her wedding dress will be
1890s. I
> told her that I'd try on this list, because really, this is a gold mine of
> information. She also asked me to do her make-up (she's blind as a bat
without
> her spectacles) and I'd really like to know what look I should try to
achieve:
> pale? natural? I feel quite honoured that she asked me to do this for her,
thus
> I'd really really appreciate help in pointing me to the right direction (I
have
> NO clue whatsoever about this period).
>
> Thanks in advance
>
> Nicole
>
> =====
> One of the Three Baroque Love Goddess    ~apparently
>
> Email: nicole@kipar.org
> URL: http://www.kipar.org
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> Want to chat instantly with your online friends?  Get the FREE Yahoo!
> Messenger http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com/
> _______________________________________________
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>


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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Jean Waddie <anne@montgomerie.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] what's your degree in?
References: <79CA42B4-C758-11D7-9590-00039369A97A@wonderland.com>
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Status: RO

Linguistics.  My husband has Physics with a single credit in Byzantine 
History.

Jean

Heather Meadows <alice@wonderland.com> wrote
>
>So, now that I have a two year certificate from my local community 
>college, and
>two years of prior university from the first time I went, I realized 
>I'm probably
>rather close to earning a bachelors, finally - if I found a program at 
>which I could
>apply a lot of those credits!    RIght now I'm thinking about the 
>Theatre Arts program
>at SFSU, because it's local and not too expensive.  But I was just 
>curious what
>various programs people on the list (especially those that work in 
>costuming)
>had gotten their degrees in.
>
>I know this topic comes up about once a year, but hey, our membership 
>fluctuates ;)
>
>thanks!
>.heather.
>
>_______________________________________________
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-- 
Jean Waddie
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	Tue, 05 Aug 2003 16:04:34 EDT
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 16:04:34 -0400 (EDT)
From: liz haines <ejburtt2003@yahoo.ca>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Bleh
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Status: RO

Leaving for pennsic in two days, still have only enough clothes for three days. been sewing like a demon. Bonus is I am travelling with two girlfriends who are approximately the same size and in similar time periods. We have decided that going roman is all good and will exchange garb as neccessary to round out the 10 days. We all are refusing to stress. Pennsic is all about having fun, and making garb in the car on the way will only add to the fun.
this isn't too say that I won't panic at least once between now and then. cheers all, 
liz of cathair dubh
p.s. if all else fails there is always woad
 
Carolyn Kayta Barrows <kayta@frys.com> wrote:

>Just wondering about those of you SCA costumer types, how the heck do you
>manage to make enough garb for Pennsic?

I never get to Pensic, but I have the problem in other centuries. The 
solution id either to do all one period, and slowly build up a wardrobe of 
it, or to set a very long lead time, like for that event next year, and 
plan now to be ready then. Also, try batch-making two of each garment at a 
time, in different colours. That takes less time than making two separate 
ones, as it happens, and you end up with two of them when you're done.

>I can't seem to get through a frickin'
>under kirtle without it becoming a Project (TM)...that takes 4 weeks to
>complete. And now I'm staring at my farthingale with loathing and dismay, 
>because I'm
>not sure I believe in the Arnold "It's 10 inches too long...for the tucks!"
>theory about Alcega anymore....
>
>Does anyone else feel like they "costume/research/sew" all the time but have
>these tiny little wardrobes? I have one year to clothe myself for Pennsic, I
>think I'm too anal to get it done.
>
>OK, rant over.
>
>-Sarra Wryght
>>HREF="www.sixteenthcenturystitchery.com">www.sixteenthcenturystitchery.com 
>(Elizabethan Dress Diaries, etc)
>Live Journal: http://www.livejournal.com/users/loreleisedai/
>_______________________________________________
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CarolynKayta Barrows
dollmaker, fibre artist, textillian
www.FunStuft.com

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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Tue Aug  5 16:10:50 2003
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My degree is in theatre, (BS in Speech) but in performance.
I took a grand total of one costume class in college, but Northwestern's
theatre program requires you to tech 8 shows, so that everyone gets a 
respect for the less-than-glamorous side of show-biz.  I did props and 
lighting as well as costume crews.

I have always had to alter my own clothing, as I am an odd size, so when 
I started working Renaissance Faires at age 14, I  made my own outfits. 
  Someone said "Wow - How much for an outfit just like that", the little 
cash register in my head went "ka-CHING", and Wench Wear Costumes was 
born. (On the sewing machine in the Student Center's craft studio, if 
you must know)

I took a kirtle project on a camping trip recently, and someone 
commented "You must really like sewing".  That's not really it for me. 
I like having nifty things to wear, and the sewing is a necessary part 
of the process - it's the showing-off part that attracted me.

I perform 18-23 weekends per year now, with Minstrosity, so in effect I 
am a professional garb-whore!  It's nice to be able to write off your 
addiction's as business expenses....

Wendy Zdrodowski
Preparing for Michigan Ren, but still in
Chicago, IL



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I have a few. It started with a associates degree in fine arts, then on
to a bachelors degree in fine arts in percussion performance. I switched
gears and pursued a masters degree in psychology and I now have a
doctorate in that field. I'm done!
Slainte,
Joe


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BM in piano performance (skirted yearly starvation for 20 years in that 
career); BA in anthropology (CalStateHayward - Heather, we're 
"neighbors"!!); 1 year completed on MA in Social Anthropology (look 
forward to skirting more starvation wages in the future in that career).

Theresa Eacker

Heather Meadows wrote:
> 
> So, now that I have a two year certificate from my local community 
> college, and
> two years of prior university from the first time I went, I realized I'm 
> probably
> rather close to earning a bachelors, finally - if I found a program at 
> which I could
> apply a lot of those credits!    RIght now I'm thinking about the 
> Theatre Arts program
> at SFSU, because it's local and not too expensive.  But I was just 
> curious what
> various programs people on the list (especially those that work in 
> costuming)
> had gotten their degrees in.
> 
> I know this topic comes up about once a year, but hey, our membership 
> fluctuates ;)
> 
> thanks!
> .heather.
> 
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I have a Bachelor's of Science in Clinical Psychology with my minor in
Cultural Anthropology. Yes, I was trying to make myself almost completely
unemployable. I failed, I've had steady work in my field. Who knew?


Karen

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From: Claire Clarke <Lady_Angharad@bigpond.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] what's your degree in?
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I have a degree in theoretical physics.
Curiously enough I have never worked professionally
in costume or theatre. :-)
On the other hand I can highly recommend physics.

Claire
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From: "Megan M." <megan@benchite.com>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: RE: [h-cost] what's your degree in?
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Let's see, I have a BS in Physiological Psychology, an MS in Information
Science, and lately became a registered nurse to have dependable income.
Never really thought until recently about a degree in textiles but I'd sure
love to take some courses in pattern fitting and draping.
-Megan

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From: "Penny Ladnier" <penny@costumegallery.com>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] what's your degree in?
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 18:52:09 -0400
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I made a career of how many majors I could have.  LOL! I started out in
architectural drafting, switched to art, then got an A.S. in Fashion
Merchandising, Marketing, and Modeling at a jr. college in Mississippi.
Then did another year at University of New Mexico in Home Ec. Ed.  Then went
to Virginia Commonwealth University and received a B.A. in Fashion
Merchandising.  I was supposed to have another degree in Marketing but the
university wouldn't accept my marketing hours towards the degree, but the
Fashion Dept. would.  While at VCU I was allowed to crossover into other
depts.  So I crossed over in to costume design in theater (8 courses),
Computers in the Business school (several courses), and Film history (a
couple of courses).  Amazing what can be substituted for art history.  After
graduating I took a master's level class in Egyptology.  I don't even know
how many college hours I have accumulated between the three colleges and
three decades of going to school... never stopped to count.  But I do use
every class I have taken either in my business or just life in general.

People ask me the college selection/major/job question often via my website.
What you major in depends on what you want to do with the degree.  I suggest
that you not only check out the college but the instructors of what you want
to major in.  Professors are usually the ones who get your foot in the door
when it comes to first jobs.  Some professors have never worked in the
*real* world and don't have practical experience or the networking
abilities.  The costume industry is a heavily network industry and it counts
when getting a job.  This also comes into play when getting an internship.
So do ask about where some of their former students are now working and
where they did their internships.  Ask if you can contact some of their
former students.  You might also want to ask what organizations the
professors are in and if they are an active members... meaning do they
really do things with their organization or do they just sign up to say they
are a member.  You can always call the organization and ask how active the
professor is.

Another bonus, is to go on your judgement. If your personality matches that
of the professors.  You will be working closely with them and if you don't
get along with them... fiction will occur.  Remember in the beginning of
getting those first jobs after graduation, the professors are your
references.  It is also good to know if you need advice after graduation
that you can call your professors.

Good luck with your new school!!!!!!  Keep in mind that they are not only
interviewing you, but you are interviewing them.  So come with a good set of
prepared questions.

Penny Ladnier
Owner, The Costume Gallery & Costume Classroom
www.costumegallery.com
www.costumeclassroom.com


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Subject: Re: [h-cost] degrees
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In a message dated 8/5/2003 4:13:39 PM Eastern Standard Time, zski@ripco.com 
writes:

> That's not really it for me. 
> I like having nifty things to wear, and the sewing is a necessary part 
> of the process - it's the showing-off part that attracted me.
> 

Glad someone else feels that way!  For me, it is the creative process of 
planning the outfit, plus the joy of wearing it, that are real attractions.  The 
sewing is pretty much drudgery, unless I'm working out something new.
Ann Wass
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Subject: [h-cost] 
	Our very smart people on this list! Was: what's your degree in?
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I am so impressed with all of us!  We are so smart and so varied.  Talk
about the classic Renaissance educations!

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From: KATHRYN WOLTERS <albrakat7@yahoo.com>
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I also had a great time at Costumne College! But ,  I spent so much time prepping  for and teachingf  metal thread embroidery classes--- that I really did'nt get a chance to 
take any classes. Would have also loved to have met more H-Costumners, too.  Hopefully next year? Maybe  we could plan some 'offical get -to gether -over-dinner' sort of thing?
I also agree, that there were too many 'limited' enrollment classes. I hope that will change next year. I also miss the fact that there used to be a LOT more people wearing costumnes/garb in the hall. In fact, they used to pass out 'Hall Costumne Awards'  to the Best Dressed' during the day. It would be nice if they revived those. 
Well, even though it's a lot of work I DO enjoy teaching embroidery. It's about as addictive as costumning is for me. Glad that you enjoyed the class, Dawn:). My' Co-Horts in Crime' and I have 3 more planned for next year:) We had already submitted the class proposals before we left, sunday afternoon.Sure hope they don't conflict with your class in the 'origami german', Kayta---since I'd really like to sign up for  that next year! 
Did'nt make it to the garment district this time--but I only live 1 1/2 hours away--so--I can do that later on this summer.
Cheers,
Albra/Kathryn



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From: KATHRYN WOLTERS <albrakat7@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] what's your degree in?
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
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And my degree was in clinical psychology---with a minor in french studies---and I work in telecommunications--(wry grin) first,  maintaining, then building, and now---inspecting the equipment installed  in the Ventura , California area Central Offices:)
 Was sewing  and learning embroider by the time I was 10--for my Barbie doll---and have just generally continued 30 some odd years later. The Barbie dolls I dress  and help embellish are just a little older and larger, now:)
Albra

seamstrix@juno.com wrote:
I have a Bachelor's of Science in Clinical Psychology with my minor in
Cultural Anthropology. Yes, I was trying to make myself almost completely
unemployable. I failed, I've had steady work in my field. Who knew?


Karen

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Subject: [h-cost] Tying a Bryon knot
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First, I don't know if I am spelling this type of knot correctly--is it
Byron or Bryon? Anyway, I was wondering if any of you here know where I can
learn how to tie this type of knot. I have gleaned from my research that
they were popular in the 1830's, but have not been able to find out how to
recreate this knot myself. Though through the neckclothiania website I have
been able to learn a few of the versions popular in the years before 1830.

My father and I (as well as a younger brother) are volunteering at a 1830
historic village and I thought this kind of knot would look nice on him. :)

Thanks for any help!

Sarah

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Subject: [h-cost] What's your degree in
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I have a BA in Anthropology from U mass Amherst circa 1976 specializing
in pre industrial textile technologies. Spent a few years puttering
about New England doing reenactments and restoring the leathers for flax
wheels in the various historic houses of the Concord/Lexington area,
sewing for people when money got tight. 20 years ago did the course work
for a Master's in Environmental Arts (read Costume and Textiles).  For a
variety of reasons I didn't finish the thesis, but I'm looking at
starting over again. Margaret Baird  

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Subject: Re: [h-cost] what's your degree in?
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 12:49:31 +1200
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> I know this topic comes up about once a year, but hey, our membership
> fluctuates ;)

I have a Bachelor of Science and I had a fairly even split of cellular and
molecular bio and plant... stuff;) I did three papers in plants for my final
year, plant pathology and two that were connected something to do with
experimentation... I have no idea how the two papers were connected to be
honest.

Then I got my Diploma in Performing Arts which was 2 years of hell where i
was told I would never be a singer and that I was probably going to fail the
class.. at least that was the in house tutrs views. Out of house tutors
pretty well loved me... you can imagine how much the piece of paper my
diploma is written on actually means to me now....

So nothing to do with costuming (aside from the fact that I knew what I was
doing when we did backstage work for our first year).

But it did give me a *good* grounding in doing research and taking
everyhting anyone says with a grain of salt;) When you study something like
Cancer Vaccine and realise each paper published has a different viewpoint,
different results or different interpretation of results... you begin to
realise how much people invest in their work and may be a bit biased.

Unfortunately it did also lead to me second guessing a lot of my own work
too;)

michaela
http://costumes.glittersweet.com


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I have a BS degree in geology and an MS in Soil Science.  I got my start in 
costuming because of a willingness to take charge for a local kids theater 
group and a knowledge of sewing.  I have also had the good luck to learn 
from everything that I have done. Maryann

At 05:28 PM 8/5/2003 -0600, you wrote:
>But I was just
> > curious what
> > various programs people on the list (especially those that work in
> > costuming)
> > had gotten their degrees in.
> >


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From: Robin Netherton <robin@shell.nightowl.net>
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Bachelor's in journalism. (This keeps food on the table.)

Bachelor's in English, with a focus on medieval English literature and
honors thesis on costume references in 14th c. narrative poetry. If the
university gave minors, I'd have a minor in history; as it was, I had
almost enough credits to claim a third bachelor's, in history.

Half a master's in communications theory, via which I managed to justify a
rare books course.

Half a master's in communications theory from another university, via
which I managed to justify a paleography course. Alas, two halves do not
make a whole. The thesis remains undone.

--Robin


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Penny,
Egyptology? How neat! What is the focus of that major, I mean Egypt, yes, but which aspects of
it? Is it Ancient Egypt?
Deb R

>  After graduating I took a master's level class in Egyptology.

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On Tuesday 05 August 2003 11:40 am, Beteena Paradise wrote:
> I have two: Art History (concentration in Italian Renaissance) and Computer
> Science.

I have a Bachelor's of Science in Economics and a law degree.

I don't, however, work in costuming; it's just my hobby.

-- 
Cathy Raymond <cathy@thyrsus.com>

“No man is rich enough to buy back his 
past.”  Oscar Wilde

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Subject: Re: [h-cost] what's your degree in?
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BA in History, MS in Library & Information Science, MA in History.

[But you already know that, Heather :) ]

- Kendra

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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Back from Costume College
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Costume College was REALLY good for me this year -- because it was the first
year I stayed in the hotel and went to the Gala.  Heather Meadows (also on
this list) and I co-taught a class on 1830's women's fashions that seemed to
go really well, plus I learned to make a capote (Regency hat), and met lots
of great people.

I'll post the five billion photos I took at some point...

- Kendra
http://demode.tweedlebop.com

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Well, I guess I shall be the only one to say that I don't have a degree at all despite having attended 8 universities/colleges/institutes in six states and two countries and racking up God knows how many credits.  If I bothered to collect them all and pay some learning institution a fee I would have a Bachelors in Business with an emphasis in accounting and minors in anthropology, horticulture and textiles.

I sort of have a love/hate relationship with the academic world which results in a great deal of eyeball rolling from both sides.  My real area of expertise is in experiencing the synchronicity of life and symbolic meaning of dreams and if anyone in the academic world had any sense, my life would be good material for someone's Ph.D. But I doubt that will ever happen and I doubt that I will ever get a Ph.D. either as I can't really embrace the academic world but I do respect those who managed to fit in or adapt and make some formalized achievements.

I do tend to avail myself of learning opportunities at every turn though.  I am particularly interested at the moment in the renaissance time period and the works of Marshall McLuhan who wrote the book The Gutenberg Galaxy in the sixties.  I'm thinking about some more formal studies now that I'm back in the states and there are some very interesting course offerings to choose from.  We'll see..........

Lisa Sinervo
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Back from Costume College
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I had a great time, too!  I was up too late worrying about the class we 
were teaching
(Kendra is all smooth experience, but I am a nervous girl) but the Gala 
was great fun.
Next year I'm bringing bottles of champagne with me for silly toasts.

I took a class on making a Victorian Corset (and I got almost all the 
way done with it).
and most of Sally Queen's 18th century jackets class.  Next year I'd 
like to re-teach
the 1830's class, with some more time since both Kendra and I had more 
too add.
I'd also like to teach one on basic textiles identification.

I met some great folks -  too many to name them all here, but it was 
such fun
to recognize people from their websites, I have to say!

.heather.


On Tuesday, August 5, 2003, at 06:59 PM, Kendra Van Cleave wrote:

> Costume College was REALLY good for me this year -- because it was the 
> first
> year I stayed in the hotel and went to the Gala.  Heather Meadows 
> (also on
> this list) and I co-taught a class on 1830's women's fashions that 
> seemed to
> go really well, plus I learned to make a capote (Regency hat), and met 
> lots
> of great people.
>
> I'll post the five billion photos I took at some point...
>
> - Kendra
> http://demode.tweedlebop.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
>

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I have a BA in Human Ecology (the new name for Home Economics) with a fashion
concentration from Montclair State University.
Deb R.

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On Tuesday 05 August 2003 10:15 pm, Lisa Sinervo wrote:
> Well, I guess I shall be the only one to say that I don't have a degree at
> all despite having attended 8 universities/colleges/institutes in six
> states and two countries and racking up God knows how many credits. 

No biggie, as far as I'm concerned.  My husband doesn't have a degree either.


-- 
Cathy Raymond <cathy@thyrsus.com>

“No man is rich enough to buy back his 
past.”  Oscar Wilde

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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Dawn Jacobson <dme_maud@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] what's your degree in?
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At 08:21 AM 8/5/2003 -0700, you wrote:

>So, now that I have a two year certificate from my local community 
>college, and
>two years of prior university from the first time I went, I realized I'm 
>probably
>rather close to earning a bachelors, finally - if I found a program at 
>which I could
>apply a lot of those credits!    RIght now I'm thinking about the Theatre 
>Arts program
>at SFSU, because it's local and not too expensive.  But I was just curious 
>what
>various programs people on the list (especially those that work in costuming)
>had gotten their degrees in.
>
>I know this topic comes up about once a year, but hey, our membership 
>fluctuates ;)

BA in History (concentration in 19th and early 20th C. California history); 
minor in Anthropology. That's the "official" stuff (CSUN, 1984). The 
"unofficial" stuff: about 50 units of Art and Art History classes 
(concentrations in Printmaking and Architectural History); enough history, 
anthropology, sociology, psych, Chicano studies, geography,  and political 
science classes that I qualified for a "subject waiver" for a Social 
Studies teaching credential; and enough years of working with computers and 
accounting that I qualified for a second teaching credential to teach 
computer applications, accounting, and computer networking.

Dawn

Dawn Jacobson
Vallejo, CA, USA

Clothes are the costumes we wear every day. 
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From: "Saragrace T. Knauf" <saragrace@earthlink.net>
To: "'Historical Costume'" <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Maybe we should change the subject? Was: [h-cost] degrees
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 20:33:55 -0700
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On Tuesday 05 August 2003 10:15 pm, Lisa Sinervo wrote:
> >Well, I guess I shall be the only one to say that I don't have a 
>> degree at all despite having attended 8 
> >universities/colleges/institutes in six states and two countries and 
> >racking up God knows how many credits.

>No biggie, as far as I'm concerned.  My husband doesn't have a degree
either.

No kidding, most of my dearest friends don't either.  (God, I sound like
someone saying "I'm not a racist!").
But truly, though I know we are all just responding to a question, it is
ridiculous that we are all "putting our papers" out there.

Maybe we should change the subject to the one that has been asked
before..How did you get started in historic costuming, where do you see
yourself in the 'heirarchy' of 'serious' to recreational costumer and
why....  

I got started in historic costuming because I wanted to attend the local
commercial Rennaisance Fair as a member of a Guild who promoted the adoption
of retired racing greyhounds.  I have 'progressed' from that to the
SCA..(tee hee).  Someday I will seriously do some research and write about
it, but for now it is just fun and I really love the pattern drafting part.
FYI-since others have asked.  I don't sell my patterns or instructions, but
you can have 'em for free (okay, shipping and copying you can pay for.)

Sg




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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Dawn Jacobson <dme_maud@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: [h-cost]  Our very smart people on this list! Was: what's
  your degree in?
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At 04:36 PM 8/5/2003 -0700, you wrote:

>I am so impressed with all of us!  We are so smart and so varied.  Talk
>about the classic Renaissance educations!

My mom refers to me as "her professional student." I can excuse it now 
because I have to take a certain number of units every 5 years to renew my 
teaching credentials.

Wendy wrote:

I took a kirtle project on a camping trip recently, and someone commented 
"You must really like sewing".  That's not really it for me. I like having 
nifty things to wear, and the sewing is a necessary part of the process - 
it's the showing-off part that attracted me.

I think I'm most attracted to the research, so it's probably surprising I 
ever manage to get anything built. ;-)

Dawn

Dawn Jacobson
Vallejo, CA, USA

Clothes are the costumes we wear every day. 
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Deb,

The course was on Egyptian art.  I took it through the VA Museum of Fine
Arts and VCU.  They had in authorities from all over the world lecturing.
It was a few summers ago... I was selected from a number of educators to
attend.  I remember I posted about it on the list.  My favorite part of the
class, was interviewing one of the leaders of an excavation team that has
been excavating since the 1960s.  He was also one of the lecturers.

I have always had a fascination with Egypt since a child.  We plan for our
30th anniversary (2008) to go spend a month in Egypt to study the sites.  My
husband spent three months in Egypt with the Multi-National Peacekeeping
Forces in the 90s.  He got to do a lot of exploring during the time.

The other day, someone asked him what was wrong with his knee.  He told them
that he hurt it in a pyramid.  The person thought he was talking about that
he was a cheerleader when in college.  What a good giggle!  He took a tour
inside one of the three largest pyramids.  As you get deeper into the
pyramid, the tunnel get narrow and narrower.  He had to get on his hands and
knees and crawl.... that was when he hurt his knee.

I told him that I wouldn't believe those pyramids were really there until I
see a photo of him in front of the pyramids.  He sent me back a photo of him
on a camel in front of the pyramids.  So now I know they are not just in
encyclopedia but real!!!!!!  Now I have to go see them.

Penny Ladnier
Owner, The Costume Gallery & Costume Classroom
www.costumegallery.com
www.costumeclassroom.com


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From: Catherine Olanich Raymond <cathy@thyrsus.com>
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost]  Our very smart people on this list! Was: what's  your
	degree in?
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On Tuesday 05 August 2003 11:38 pm, Dawn Jacobson wrote:
> At 04:36 PM 8/5/2003 -0700, you wrote:
[snip]
> Wendy wrote:
>
> I took a kirtle project on a camping trip recently, and someone commented
> "You must really like sewing".  That's not really it for me. I like having
> nifty things to wear, and the sewing is a necessary part of the process -
> it's the showing-off part that attracted me.
>
> I think I'm most attracted to the research, so it's probably surprising I
> ever manage to get anything built. ;-)

That sounds just like me.  I actually hate to sew, but it's the cheapest way 
to get something that even approaches the costumes I design in my head.


-- 
Cathy Raymond <cathy@thyrsus.com>

“No man is rich enough to buy back his 
past.”  Oscar Wilde

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Okay I appologize for the cross post but I could really used some
constructive criticism.  I have posted two web pages which I have been using
to convey information to my Flemish class. These pages are really just
discussion notes so they are not finished products. The images have been
loaded to preserve space, but the pages will still be slow to load.
 
The link below is where I could really use some constructive criticism and
suggestions.  
http://www.saragrace.net/6B_FlemishClass_MUs.html
Unfortunatly I can't get one of the pictures to load which would 'justify' a
horizontal seam in the front.  I will continue to work on that.
 
I have done several mockups for the Breughel style outer gown and would like
your thoughts on what else could be done to make them look more like the
artwork.  I know that people will have different views on what is 'really'
there in the artwork and philosophies about how to use artwork, feel free to
tell me what you interpret differently and what you can see that I don't
with respect to the construction of the gown.  Any suggestions on how I can
get the upper arm to look more like the pictures (or anything else) would be
appreciated.
 
 
This link is just for if you want to see more artwork and some class
discussion.
 
http://www.saragrace.net/6A_FlemishClass.html
 
 
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From: "Penny Ladnier" <penny@costumegallery.com>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] What's your degree in
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 00:35:06 -0400
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Status: RO

Margaret,

What do you do with your degree now?

Penny Ladnier
Owner, The Costume Gallery & Costume Classroom
www.costumegallery.com
www.costumeclassroom.com
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Margaret Baird " <beads@traknet.com>
To: <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2003 8:37 PM
Subject: [h-cost] What's your degree in


> I have a BA in Anthropology from U mass Amherst circa 1976 specializing
> in pre industrial textile technologies. Spent a few years puttering
> about New England doing reenactments and restoring the leathers for flax
> wheels in the various historic houses of the Concord/Lexington area,
> sewing for people when money got tight. 20 years ago did the course work
> for a Master's in Environmental Arts (read Costume and Textiles).  For a
> variety of reasons I didn't finish the thesis, but I'm looking at
> starting over again. Margaret Baird
>
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From: "Saragrace T. Knauf" <saragrace@earthlink.net>
To: "'Historical Costume'" <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: RE: [h-cost] Constructive criticism needed
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 21:35:33 -0700
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Untill I can get the webpage to work correctly, here is a cheater way to get
to the picture I refered to as not working.
http://www.saragrace.net/images/Flem_Class/Breughel/serv_brkf.tif

 
 

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Hi, Sarah. Here is the citation from "The Ashley Book of Knots". If you 
need the full info (ISBN, etc.), send me a note privately (there is also 
an illo, if you can receive a jpeg). Page 385 Chap 31 "Fancy Knots"  All 
quotes from H LeBlanc, Esq. The Art of Tying the Cravat, Philadelphia 
1828. Num. 2410 "The Stock" M. LeBlanc terms this tie and method "En 
Cascade". "The stock is middled at the throat and then one end goes 
around the neck, one part passing above the other, at the nape. At the 
front a Granny Knot is tied, care being taken that all parts are flat 
and fair. Ther upper end is turned directly down over the lower or 
smaller end and the scarfpin holds everything firm after the folds have 
been carefully arranged". If the knot is to be tied around the collar 
the tie is merely passed around the back of the neck and either a Half 
Knot or a Granny  Knot tied at the front before adjusting the pin. M. 
LeBlanc credits Lord Byron with being the first to cross a tie at the 
nape of the neck instead of (stockwise) at the front.  : end quote:. I 
will be out of town for a few weeks starting Friday, so a jpeg might 
have to wait.  BTW, all of you H-cost folks going to Pennsic (SCA 
thingie), please stop by my wife's shop to chat with us (The Practical 
Goose Sutlery), or leave a note as to where you are camped and when a 
visit might be appropriate. Cheers, Mike T.



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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Dawn Jacobson <dme_maud@pacbell.net>
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Subject: [h-cost] Re: How did you get started in historic costuming? Was:
	Maybe we should change the subject? Was: degrees
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Status: RO

At 08:33 PM 8/5/2003 -0700, you wrote:
><snip>

>Maybe we should change the subject to the one that has been asked
>before..How did you get started in historic costuming, where do you see
>yourself in the 'heirarchy' of 'serious' to recreational costumer and
>why....
>
>I got started in historic costuming because I wanted to attend the local
>commercial Rennaisance Fair as a member of a Guild who promoted the adoption
>of retired racing greyhounds.  I have 'progressed' from that to the
>SCA..(tee hee).  Someday I will seriously do some research and write about
>it, but for now it is just fun and I really love the pattern drafting part.
>FYI-since others have asked.  I don't sell my patterns or instructions, but
>you can have 'em for free (okay, shipping and copying you can pay for.)

I don't remember a time when I didn't dress up to play different time 
periods. I asked my mother, and she said when I was 6, the neighbor across 
the street when I was growing up asked why I dressed so oddly; I was 
playing "dress up." My mother started teaching me needlework when I was 5 
(anything to keep an active little girl from complaining, "I'm bored!"), 
and how to use the sewing machine when I was 9. I started building historic 
costumes when I was in junior high, and wore vintage clothes from the '40s 
and '50s to high school in the early 1970s. Renaissance Faires, ACW 
reenactments, the SCA and Fur Trade rendezvous in college and a couple of 
theatrical costuming classes for fun, along with learning lots from 
different people (I love to pick people's brains), and about 20 years of 
work as an architectural historian and preservationist have gotten me to 
where I am now: somebody who teaches business and computer classes 
full-time, and does everything else from building costumes to writing 
part-time.

Dawn

Dawn Jacobson
Vallejo, CA, USA

Clothes are the costumes we wear every day. 
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From: "Stephen Bergdahl" <madlystitching@earthlink.net>
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] what's your degree in?
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Well I am another of the group with more than one degree.  I have a AA and
BA in Theater Arts - Costuming.  Which has helped in a lot in my hobbies,
but not made me a living ever.  I also have an AA in Catering, which I did
for a good number of years, before burning out.  Cute story, I was working
as a Security Guard, LONG story I needed to think and this paid me to do
that,  and one day one of the office workers at the building I was assigned
to suggested that this was a good time in my life to take some night college
courses and as she put it "Make something of myself".  I just explained to
her that I had three degrees, and I doing this because it suited my needs.
The look on her face was priceless,

Stephen Bergdahl - Lord Vich

"I don't suffer from insanity!  I fact I rather enjoy it!"

----- Original Message -----
From: "Heather Meadows" <alice@wonderland.com>
To: <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2003 8:21 AM
Subject: [h-cost] what's your degree in?


>
>
> I know this topic comes up about once a year, but hey, our membership
> fluctuates ;)
>
> thanks!
> .heather.
>
> _______________________________________________
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] degrees
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From: Heather Meadows <alice@wonderland.com>
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
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nor do i -- or I wouldn't have asked.  and I've taken classes for years 
at at least 5 schools....

I'm just trying to focus a bit, so maybe I can get one before I'm 40!


On Tuesday, August 5, 2003, at 07:37 PM, Catherine Olanich Raymond 
wrote:

> On Tuesday 05 August 2003 10:15 pm, Lisa Sinervo wrote:
>> Well, I guess I shall be the only one to say that I don't have a 
>> degree at
>> all despite having attended 8 universities/colleges/institutes in six
>> states and two countries and racking up God knows how many credits.
>
> No biggie, as far as I'm concerned.  My husband doesn't have a degree 
> either.
>
>
> -- 
> Cathy Raymond <cathy@thyrsus.com>
>
> No man is rich enough to buy back his
> past.  Oscar Wilde
>
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] degrees
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Heather,

I got my degree one month before my 40th birthday.  40 was a goal for me
too!

Penny Ladnier
Owner, The Costume Gallery & Costume Classroom
www.costumegallery.com
www.costumeclassroom.com


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From: =?iso-8859-1?q?N=20Kipar?= <nicolas_fouquet@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] what's your degree in?
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
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 --- Heather Meadows <alice@wonderland.com> wrote: > 

> at SFSU, because it's local and not too expensive.  But I was just 
> curious what
> various programs people on the list (especially those that work in 
> costuming)
> had gotten their degrees in.

Got a German MA (apparently equivalent to a British MPhil) in English
Historical Linguistics (specialising in Old English), English Literature, and
Economics from Aachen University. Currently doing research for a PhD on 17th c.
Women's Studies & Fashion.

Nicole

=====
One of the Three Baroque Love Goddess    ~apparently

Email: nicole@kipar.org
URL: http://www.kipar.org

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Gee, I feel SO undereducated!

I only have one degree - Bach. Applied Science in Mathematics, majoring in
Computing and Operations Research.  I still work in the computing field.

The mathematics has come in handy, I think, because I have little problems
drafting patterns, even though I am completely non-artistic. Don't use it
for much else, apart from helping the kids with their homework.

Glenda.

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>>>Cathy wrote:
>
> That sounds just like me.  I actually hate to sew, but it's the
cheapest way 
>to get something that even approaches the costumes I design in my
head.

I'm glad I'm not the only person on the list who doesn't actually like
sewing!

I have a joint bachelor's degree in librarianship and French. I have no
costume-related qualifications, but I've been a reenactor for 26 years
and make garments when I know what I want and can't buy it from the
traders.


Kate Bunting
Library, University of Derby
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In a message dated 8/5/2003 10:41:41 PM Central Standard Time, 
dme_maud@pacbell.net writes:

> I think I'm most attracted to the research, so it's probably surprising I 
> ever manage to get anything built. ;-)
> 

That is so me. I LOOOOOOOVE the research. I don't mind the handsewing or 
embroidery. But the sewing machine....bleah. But with my kids and other stuff, if 
I didn't resort to the machine, I'd never get anything done. Bleh. It's why I 
don't take commissions or sew for money......cuz zthat's not the fun part.

-Sarra Wryght
<A HREF="www.sixteenthcenturystitchery.com">www.sixteenthcenturystitchery.com</A>  (Elizabethan Dress Diaries, etc)
Live Journal: http://www.livejournal.com/users/loreleisedai/
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From: "Penny Ladnier" <penny@costumegallery.com>
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] what's your degree in?
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 04:33:04 -0400
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I think an interesting question to ask is how many people with
costuming/theater/home EC./fashion/textile/museum studies degrees actually
work in their fields after graduation.   Maybe this is what Melissa(?)
wanted to know.  And how many people hold jobs/businesses in the fields
without degrees.

I can speak for the people that I have kept in touch with since college.  We
had about 30 fashion majors graduate with fashion degrees in the semester I
graduated.  All but two are employed in the industry.  In my costume
classes, of the ones I graduated with or with a year that I did... 4
undergrads... all but one are in the industry.   Two of the CD grad
students, one kept on designing for theaters and the other one took a
teaching job.

Of the other two undergrad CD students, one went to work at Colonial
Williamsburg, and the other at a theme park.  Most of the fashion
merchandising students went to work as buyers.  The saying among these
students was if you didn't cut it as a buyer you went into retail
management.  Of the fashion design students, one went on for a masters and
the other taught at the university.  Another burned out and just gave up.  I
knew a CD student who did the same.  Some of the FD students went on to work
under NYC designers as cutters or drapers.

A good many of the curators I know have masters degrees.  Some are former
theater designers or professors.  For some reason, I see a lot of retired
elementary to high school teachers as vintage clothing dealers.

Penny Ladnier
Owner, The Costume Gallery & Costume Classroom
www.costumegallery.com
www.costumeclassroom.com


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Subject: Re: [h-cost] what's your degree in?
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Glenda,

That is interesting... most colleges today are wanting people in computer
programming and such to have a heavy background in math.

Have you thought about combing your computer/math skills in to some of the
computer sewing software?

Penny Ladnier
Owner, The Costume Gallery & Costume Classroom
www.costumegallery.com
www.costumeclassroom.com
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Glenda Robinson" <glendar@compassnet.com.au>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2003 4:03 AM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] what's your degree in?


> Gee, I feel SO undereducated!
>
> I only have one degree - Bach. Applied Science in Mathematics, majoring in
> Computing and Operations Research.  I still work in the computing field.
>
> The mathematics has come in handy, I think, because I have little problems
> drafting patterns, even though I am completely non-artistic. Don't use it
> for much else, apart from helping the kids with their homework.
>
> Glenda.
>
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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Carolyn Kayta Barrows <kayta@frys.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: How did you get started in historic
  costuming? Was: Maybe we should change the subject? Was: degrees
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>>Maybe we should change the subject to the one that has been asked
>>before..How did you get started in historic costuming, where do you see
>>yourself in the 'heirarchy' of 'serious' to recreational costumer and
>>why....

My mother gave me Davenport's costume book when I was 8, for my birthday, 
and 20 years later gave the read-to-death remains of it a re-binding, again 
as a birthday present.  (I still have this book, and treasure it.)  I 
didn't learn to sew from her, but took notes after I learned from somebody 
else.  She combined pieces from different patterns, or made her own 
patterns, and I always knew one could do that.  So when I started 
historical costuming in the SCA in 1971, I made my own patterns for that 
too.  This is after doing most of my own clothes and Halloween costumes 
from junior high school onwards.

I joined the SCA, having heard that one had to wear a historical costume to 
SCA events, and made a trained 'Albrecht Durer' dress and 'origami' hat to 
wear there.  I figured out all the patterns myself, and truly amazed the 
t-tunic crowd I met at my first event.  This was before the Janet Arnold 
books came out, and the best we had, later on, was that large format book 
with a page of pictures, a page of text, and two pages of patterns, male 
and female, which was intended for stage (name?).  My first Elizabethan was 
a big white 1590's thing with a drum farthingale, and my first corset, for 
SCA Twelfthnight in 1973.  I did many different SCA periods, regardless of 
country or persona, and branched out into Georgian, Regency, Victorian and 
Edwardian as soon as I found excuses, or venues to wear them in.

I'm not a costume scholar.  I am serious about the recreation of costumes, 
but my strong point is shapes and patterns.  I notice how things like 
sleeves morph over the decades, and am pretty good at spotting new 
influences as they begin to show up in the fashion plates before they 
become really fashionable.  So my costumes are usually the right shape and 
proportion, even if they are not always made of the right fabrics 
(sometimes totally wrong on purpose).  I get most of my information about 
any period from practically meditating on contemporary images, and am quick 
to notice the differences between the original and subsequent 
re-drawings.  Reading comprehension is difficult for me, so I get very 
little information from the text in my costume books, however scholarly.

        CarolynKayta Barrows
dollmaker, fibre artist, textillian
          www.FunStuft.com

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Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 22:59:11 +0100
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The first one is in Art History and English, and then I have an MBA



Lynne Connolly, GSOLFOT
Award winning Historical Romance author.
The Richard and Rose books from <http://www.novelbooksinc.com/>Novelbooks Inc.
YORKSHIRE, DEVONSHIRE and now VENICE
VANESSA from <http://www.awe-struck.net/>Awe-Struck books
http://www.geocities.com/lynne_connolly2001/  

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From: "Dawn Wood" <dawn@agesofelegance.co.uk>
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] what's your degree in?
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 10:43:18 +0100
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I did a fashion design/pattern cutting degree and everything else is learned
on the job. It has been useful in some ways but as we all know the various
areas of theatre, fashion and 'real' historical are made in very different
ways so continually learning

 I have been tempted to do the Courtaulds MA in costume but it's a dry
course (there aren't any practical research degrees over here sadly) and
apart from it being easier to publish research etc is not really going to
help. I also applied a few years ago to do a theatre costume degree but was
told it probably wasn't worth my while as I'd been in the business and
earned a crust without one

Btw I also hate sewing even though I do it daily to me it's the costume
equivalent of filing particularly hems and buttonholes, still has to be done

Dawn
Ages Of Elegance makers of Historical reproduction Clothing, Uniforms and
Bridalwear
 http://www.agesofelegance.co.uk 0113 277 6716
----- Original Message ----- 

> I think an interesting question to ask is how many people with
> costuming/theater/home EC./fashion/textile/museum studies degrees actually
> work in their fields after graduation.   Maybe this is what Melissa(?)
> wanted to know.  And how many people hold jobs/businesses in the fields
> without degrees.
>


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From: "Kate M Bunting" <K.M.Bunting@derby.ac.uk>
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Tying a Bryon knot
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>Mike quoted...

> M. LeBlanc credits Lord Byron with being the first to cross a tie at
the 
>nape of the neck instead of (stockwise) at the front.  

Lord Byron, as a Romantic poet, started the fashion for wearing the
shirt-collar open, or a loose necktie, at a time when gentlemen normally
wore high, starched cravats. 






Kate Bunting
Library, University of Derby
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	<200308052237.17378.cathy@thyrsus.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] degrees
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> On Tuesday 05 August 2003 10:15 pm, Lisa Sinervo wrote:
> > Well, I guess I shall be the only one to say that I don't have a degree
at
> > all despite having attended 8 universities/colleges/institutes in six
> > states and two countries and racking up God knows how many credits.
>
> No biggie, as far as I'm concerned.  My husband doesn't have a degree
either.

Neither do I or my husband. He doesn't need one to be a DJ, and
circumstances (coupled with some healthy stupidity) kept me from going when
I was young. I would love to go now, but we have four children at home
(three disabled) and my husband and I work opposite shifts so we don't have
to use daycare.

Dianne


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Me, too! ;o) I'm definitely a research and embroidery junkie.  Well, and
a fabric junkie, too.
I *know* how to machine sew, and am actually pretty good at it for a lot
of things, but 7 years of sewing awnings and tents and tipis and
bajillions of customized outfitters' products REALLY burned me out! So
now, I put off the machine sewing until the last possible minute, and
then do it all at once, like swallowing nasty-tasting medicine.
I'm also learning to do hand-sewn garments, starting with a mid/late
18th c. middle-class outfit (from a couple of classes I took through
Penny's website).  It's loads of fun, and completely different from
anything I "normally" do.
--sue

LoreleiMorte@aol.com wrote:
> 
> That is so me. I LOOOOOOOVE the research. I don't mind the handsewing or
> embroidery. But the sewing machine....bleah. But with my kids and other stuff, if
> I didn't resort to the machine, I'd never get anything done. Bleh. It's why I
> don't take commissions or sew for money......cuz zthat's not the fun part.
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From: "Megan M." <megan@benchite.com>
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Subject: RE: [h-cost] Re: How did you get started in historic costuming?
	Was:Maybe we should change the subject? Was: degrees
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I was taught to sew when I was a child on my mother's 1939 Singer 201; I
remember making a pants and jacket combination in 8th grade when the rest of
the class was making aprons.  I also took a sewing class with my sister at
Sears when I was 12 and we made clothes to wear at the fashion show at the
end.  I stopped sewing much except my formal dresses until after college (at
that age I didn't want "home-made clothes"  but I didn't have a serger
either), but bought  my first sewing machine within a year of graduation.
Didn't sew that much except Halloween costumes (sewing is much more
expensive than buying at Wal-Mart or other retailers like that) until I
found the Ren Festivals.  THen I found the SCA and the interest just
blossomed.  I was never really taught to fit patterns well, though, so I
still have disappointments when sewing as I am NOT the standard size. Still
working on that, but have managed to make myself clothes anyway.  I don't
make much closely fitted modern clothing, but I much prefer shirts made by
me to anything from the store.  And I get strange lookes when wearing 17th
century shirts and vests with jeans.  I just love that!  But still working
on it.  I get a kick out of having a well-constructed garment that I made.
My least favorite part is laying out and cutting. The dress I just finished
for Pennsic (ok, still hemming that 360 cm hem by hand) had all the edges
finished on the serger, but all seams sewn on my 1920s Singer treadle
machine.  Love that to, very relaxing.
I better quit rambling now,
-Megan


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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Sheryl Nance-Durst <sherylnd@kc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] what's your degree in?
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My bachelors is in mathematics.
My masters is in library and information science.
Weird combination, I know. :)

Sheryl Nance-Durst

At 08:21 AM 8/5/03 -0700, you wrote:
>But I was just curious what
>various programs people on the list (especially those that work in costuming)
>had gotten their degrees in.
>
>thanks!
>.heather.


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Subject: Re: [h-cost] what's your degree in?
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General Physical Sciences (B.S>, Meteorology <M.S.> <G>

I had wanted to major in theatre, but soon realized that I didn't have the
talent to make a career out of that.  I think I nearly put together an
unofficial minor in early mediveal history and culture, but there wasn't
any such thing way back when ('75).

Joanna
lurker extradorinaire

On Tue, 5 Aug 2003, Jean Waddie wrote:

> Linguistics.  My husband has Physics with a single credit in Byzantine
> History.
>
> Jean
>
> Heather Meadows <alice@wonderland.com> wrote
> >
> >So, now that I have a two year certificate from my local community
> >college, and
> >two years of prior university from the first time I went, I realized
> >I'm probably
> >rather close to earning a bachelors, finally - if I found a program at
> >which I could
> >apply a lot of those credits!    RIght now I'm thinking about the
> >Theatre Arts program
> >at SFSU, because it's local and not too expensive.  But I was just
> >curious what
> >various programs people on the list (especially those that work in
> >costuming)
> >had gotten their degrees in.
> >
> >I know this topic comes up about once a year, but hey, our membership
> >fluctuates ;)
> >
> >thanks!
> >.heather.
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >h-costume mailing list
> >h-costume@mail.indra.com
> >http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
>
> --
> Jean Waddie
> _______________________________________________
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From: liz haines <ejburtt2003@yahoo.ca>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] what's your degree in?
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
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I don't have a degree in anything but have so many credits in different disciplines that I could probably make one up. I started to do a history degree, switched to Biology, then ran away to fashion school , got homesick and came back to NB,Canada and tried to finish the fashion, Courses were full so I ended up in pottery,with abit of weaving on the side.
I now work in a museum as collections manager doing project work at the moment that involves the textiles collection and learning hands on about conservation. So I guess you could say that I amusing all of my education in one way or another.
cheers, liz

Dawn Wood <dawn@agesofelegance.co.uk> wrote:
I did a fashion design/pattern cutting degree and everything else is learned
on the job. It has been useful in some ways but as we all know the various
areas of theatre, fashion and 'real' historical are made in very different
ways so continually learning

I have been tempted to do the Courtaulds MA in costume but it's a dry
course (there aren't any practical research degrees over here sadly) and
apart from it being easier to publish research etc is not really going to
help. I also applied a few years ago to do a theatre costume degree but was
told it probably wasn't worth my while as I'd been in the business and
earned a crust without one

Btw I also hate sewing even though I do it daily to me it's the costume
equivalent of filing particularly hems and buttonholes, still has to be done

Dawn
Ages Of Elegance makers of Historical reproduction Clothing, Uniforms and
Bridalwear
http://www.agesofelegance.co.uk 0113 277 6716
----- Original Message ----- 

> I think an interesting question to ask is how many people with
> costuming/theater/home EC./fashion/textile/museum studies degrees actually
> work in their fields after graduation. Maybe this is what Melissa(?)
> wanted to know. And how many people hold jobs/businesses in the fields
> without degrees.
>


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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Wed Aug  6 09:41:56 2003
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Subject: [h-cost] Re: what's your degree in?
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BA in history with a minor in english lit, both mostly focusing on 18th
century or earlier.

My mother sewed a lot of my sister's and my clothes as we were growing
up, partially for economy, partially because we were a tall family and
it was hard to buy off the rack for us back then.  We all learned to sew
early to help out.  I actually learned to sew on my greatgrandmother's
treadle machine.  My interest in history started early and I can't
remember a time it wasn't tied into costuming.  I did take a real class
on costume history in college to fill out some credit hours and helped
start a cataloqueing system for costumes at the local museum (which had
some to die-for neat 'stuff'!  It was really great to have the
opportunity to see inside the garments and study construction).  As I
discovered the local renfaire and SCA the sewing experience came in
handy but I find I really enjoyed the research, and now the
handwork/embroidery, over producing endless costumes/garb.  And now
dollmaking is calling my name......

Catherine
who is in the middle finishing a ton of costumes for KCRF which opens
in 3 weeks and is just a little crispy on the edges.
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] what's your degree in?
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Penny Ladnier" <penny@costumegallery.com>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2003 4:33 AM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] what's your degree in?


> I think an interesting question to ask is how many people with
> costuming/theater/home EC./fashion/textile/museum studies degrees actually
> work in their fields after graduation.

For me, I started in Art History because I love art. I wanted to either work
in a museum or go to law school. I didn't want to be a lawyer, I wanted to
be an advocate for the arts. This was during the "Jesse Helms attacking the
arts" years. I moved to Boston because it is a cool town ;-) and because I
had a shot at a job in a gallery at Brandeis University. Didn't get the job
there, but ended up as a research assistant doing public health policy. I
have been a non-clinician in health care ever since. I went back to school
to get my computer science degree... the programmers were always so busy, so
I would do my own programming when I could. They made more money so I
figured I should just get the education and get one of those jobs. That is
exactly what I did. I worked as a development programmer for a -big- medical
software company. Now I live in Atlanta and am a consultant working with
that software. I get to work from home and travel around the US (and
sometimes Canada) about once a month to teach. What does this have to do
with costuming or art? They remain very close to my heart..... but, baby,
the programming pays for a LOT of fabric!!!!

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Subject: [h-cost] Re: degrees and an observation
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Okay, I'll go next - I have a BFA in Graphic Design, with extra credit 
for Bad Timing:  I graduated in 1979, just before computers entered the 
field, so all the things I learned to do by hand can now be done by a 
mouse click.  I also have enough hours and professional experience in 
theatre to qualify for at least a minor in Technical Theatre, and 
probably another degree in Performance.

My observation is this:  It's very interesting to note how many 
costumers on this list (hobbyists or otherwise) also work in the fields 
of computer science/technology.  It also seems to be the norm for folks 
involved in SCA.  I went to Costume Con for the first time this year.  
After meeting a few people, I began assuming everyone else there was 
probably in the technical field in their "day" jobs.  As an 
artsy-fartsy chick, I felt really out of my element!  It's no wonder 
I've not had any exposure to the world of cons and costuming outside of 
the theatre - I've been hangin' with the wrong sort of people!

No complaints; I just think it's odd...and I am dee-lighted to have 
stumbled upon this world.

Allison

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----- Original Message -----
From: "Sue Clemenger" <mooncat@in-tch.com>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2003 5:43 AM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Our very smart people on this list! Was:
what'syourdegree in?


> Me, too! ;o) I'm definitely a research and embroidery junkie.  Well, and
> a fabric junkie, too.

Ok, I am strange, I would much rather cut and sew then have to do research.
I can do the research if I have to, but it gives me no joy.  That's the
great thing about this list I get exposed to new ideas, with out having to
come up with them myself.

Stephen Bergdahl - Lord Vich

"I don't suffer from insanity!  I fact I rather enjoy it!"

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I have a Masters in History and political science, and a Minor in music.
I don't sew, but learn all sorts of things here to pass on to my friends
who do, especially those who sew for me. ;) My fiber arts are confined to
a few different styles of historic embroidery, at which I still consider
myself very much a learner.

Arlys


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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
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My bachelor's is in chemistry. Doing almost nothing with it now, 
except sometimes mixing up batches of noxious substances as a part of 
metalsmithing/jewlery-making!

-Amanda F.
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Out of lurking because I haven't seen my profession represented!
I have a diploma as a library technician.  That's for working in the 
technical side of the library, as opposed to the reference or management 
side that requires more schooling to become a librarian.

I am leaving that field now, because the job prospects have become very 
thin.  It took 8 months to find a one year contract job, which is ending at 
the end of the month.

Then I have decided to go back to school and turn the volunteer hobby of 
costuming into a profession.  I'm going to take a one year Costuming for 
Film and Television course here in Vancouver, get my union ticket and work 
on the features.  Movies for money, theatre for love of art.

I've decided if you are going to be unemployed, might as well be unemployed 
doing something you love!

Moira

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 At 08:21 AM 8/5/03 -0700, you wrote:
>But I was just curious what various programs people on the list 
(especially those that work in
 >costuming) had gotten their degrees in.
>
>thanks!
>.heather.

No degree in costuming. BS in Bacteriology and Public Health (AKA 
Microbiology) and MD with board cert in Pediatrics.

All the costuming and history stuff is done on the side. ;)

Kat
<kat@redtrollforge.com>


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Subject: RE: [h-cost] What your degree in?
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>I've decided if you are going to be unemployed, might as well be unemployed

>doing something you love!

Moira
_________________________
This is SO true!  I have been unemployed for the last 6 months and am loving
it!  If you had asked me a few years ago would I ever not work for 6 months
I would have told you NO WAY!  It has completely changed my outlook on life.
I will probably always work but take sabbaticals every few years.

Sg


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From: Stacey <anastasi5@yahoo.com>
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Hi Deb R.

I'm an MSU alum, too!  I went for Music Composition,
and while there, I had a roomie who was into
reenacting and I caught the costuming bug.  I'm on an
economic hiatus from FIT at the moment, but I was
going for Patternmaking.  As far as any learning
through life experience, I've been in the pop music
marketing field, graphic design, publishing, and
pharmaceutical marketing.  All through it, I've been
sewing.  Partly for inexpensive clothes that fit,
partly 'cause I'm a diva.

Stacey

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*g* I'm an oddball... while I started in Computer Science, my eventual 
degree was a BS in Information Systems Management (yes, more business 
than computer... but...).  Ok... still a job that you can get paid 
decently for...  However, during the last few years of that I added on 
the certification program for Elementary Education that my university 
offered.  *g* Having married someone in Computer Science, we decided 
that I could "afford" to teach... which I'd rather have started out with 
(actually I had 3 preferred majors... none of which meant a decent 
paying job, so...)

I'm hoping to go back for my Master in School Library Media Science  
(yeah, at least one of the 3 schools in the state that offer it actually 
calls it that).  I've decided that I'd rather be a media specialist than 
a classroom teacher... and Maryland now requires the Master degree in 
that field in order to be certified for it.

As far as Computer/Engineer types and the arts.... it was observed by 
many people at U. of Md, College Park that any time you looked around 
the Fine Arts building (Tawes at the time) that about half the people 
you saw there were people who were actually majoring in one of the Fine 
Arts... the other half was mostly folks from Comp. Sci. or Engineering.

Ever since then I've figured that sci-fi cons were the outlet that geeks 
created for their "creative side" :-)    (Sigh... and some of those 
things are rather amusing when you dress "normal"... some of you out 
there have heard of the term "freaking the mundanes"... or just 
"wierding out" the normal folks?  I have friends who have been known to 
mess with the minds of some of the die-hard fans.  *g* And yeah, I'll do 
it to idiots if they give me an opening.  One of the cons I went to out 
in Oregon, I was pregnant, so had my "normal" t-shirt pregnant clothes 
on... and was on my own.  The fact that I was in line to register should 
have tipped of the dunces behind me... but no.  Two of them told their 
friends to "behave, she's going to think we're all strange"... because 
they were having an evil laugh contest.  No contest... the one that came 
from me a few moments later had them stunned, and one down kowtowing 
:-)   Costumes don't *always* look like something "unusual"  :-)


-Elisabeth

>From: Allison <allivox@comcast.net>
>
>My observation is this:  It's very interesting to note how many 
>costumers on this list (hobbyists or otherwise) also work in the fields 
>of computer science/technology.  It also seems to be the norm for folks 
>involved in SCA.  I went to Costume Con for the first time this year.  
>After meeting a few people, I began assuming everyone else there was 
>probably in the technical field in their "day" jobs.  As an 
>artsy-fartsy chick, I felt really out of my element!  It's no wonder 
>I've not had any exposure to the world of cons and costuming outside of 
>the theatre - I've been hangin' with the wrong sort of people!
>
>No complaints; I just think it's odd...and I am dee-lighted to have 
>stumbled upon this world.
>
>Allison
>
>  
>


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Subject: Re: [h-cost] what's your degree in?
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I don't know what I want to be when I grow up. 
I have an Associated Equiv. in Electronics from the Navy, I did 1 year of 
pre-Nursing, and tomorrow I go back to register for something else.....probably 
something computer-y. 

-Sarra Wryght
<A HREF="www.sixteenthcenturystitchery.com">www.sixteenthcenturystitchery.com</A>  (Elizabethan Dress Diaries, etc)
Live Journal: http://www.livejournal.com/users/loreleisedai/
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From: "Herself-the-Elf" <herself-the-elf@rogers.com>
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] What your degree in?
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I have no degree, although I did major in Celtic Studies at the University
of Toronto.  I have recently completed my diploma in Illustration from the
Ontario College of Art and Design, and am attempting to kickstart an
illustration career.  Unfortunately this requires a lot of self-promotion,
something I'm terrible at. -.-;;

-- Maral
http://sarcasm.fanfic.org


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I am new to this group. Where does one post messages?
Cheers,
Joe
---
Joe Robertson, Psy.D.
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In a message dated 8/6/2003 11:07:22 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
moefen@hotmail.com writes:

> Movies for money, theatre for love of art.
> 

Good luck! [I mean that]

Be ready to travel all the time.
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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Carolyn Kayta Barrows <kayta@frys.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: degrees and an observation
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Interesting.  I have a button that says "The more I find out about 
computers, the better I like my pencil.  I do, by hand, the kind of 
graphics it takes my computer geek Sweetie hours to do on the computer.  We 
have a scanner so my hand-drawn stuff can get into the computer for him to 
geek with.  (For example, I did the line art for my business card, then he 
played coloring book with it in Photoshop till I liked the colors.)  But 
since I live near the Silicon Valley, and most of my costuming friends are, 
or are married to (or both), computer geeks, a lot of it has rubbed off on 
me, and I at least have a clue when I hear computer stuff 
discussed.  Mostly I discuss costume stuff with these folks, and stay in my 
element whenever I can.  They start discussing the latest hardware, and I'm 
out of there.

I have no college degree whatsoever, and no job either.  I'm doing all my 
artsy-fartsy on a shoestring budget these days.

>Okay, I'll go next - I have a BFA in Graphic Design, with extra credit for 
>Bad Timing:  I graduated in 1979, just before computers entered the field, 
>so all the things I learned to do by hand can now be done by a mouse 
>click.  I also have enough hours and professional experience in theatre to 
>qualify for at least a minor in Technical Theatre, and probably another 
>degree in Performance.
>
>My observation is this:  It's very interesting to note how many costumers 
>on this list (hobbyists or otherwise) also work in the fields of computer 
>science/technology.  It also seems to be the norm for folks involved in 
>SCA.  I went to Costume Con for the first time this year.
>After meeting a few people, I began assuming everyone else there was 
>probably in the technical field in their "day" jobs.  As an artsy-fartsy 
>chick, I felt really out of my element!  It's no wonder I've not had any 
>exposure to the world of cons and costuming outside of the theatre - I've 
>been hangin' with the wrong sort of people!
>
>No complaints; I just think it's odd...and I am dee-lighted to have 
>stumbled upon this world.


        CarolynKayta Barrows
dollmaker, fibre artist, textillian
          www.FunStuft.com

              //// \\\
             ////-@@\\\
            ((((   7 )))
             (((  <> ))))
                )   ((((((
           /----\   /---\))

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Thanks, Mike. The instructions were pretty clear, so right now I don't think
I'll need the jpeg. I have an illustration in a fashion book, but no
instructions on how to tie it. I thought it was so nice looking, I'm
thrilled I can try it out now! Thanks so much, I really appreciate your
help.

Sarah

----- Original Message -----
From: "michael tartaglio" <mikes@dandy.net>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2003 11:30 PM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Tying a Bryon knot


> Hi, Sarah. Here is the citation from "The Ashley Book of Knots". If you
> need the full info (ISBN, etc.), send me a note privately (there is also
> an illo, if you can receive a jpeg). Page 385 Chap 31 "Fancy Knots"  All
> quotes from H LeBlanc, Esq. The Art of Tying the Cravat, Philadelphia
> 1828. Num. 2410 "The Stock" M. LeBlanc terms this tie and method "En
> Cascade". "The stock is middled at the throat and then one end goes
> around the neck, one part passing above the other, at the nape. At the
> front a Granny Knot is tied, care being taken that all parts are flat
> and fair. Ther upper end is turned directly down over the lower or
> smaller end and the scarfpin holds everything firm after the folds have
> been carefully arranged". If the knot is to be tied around the collar
> the tie is merely passed around the back of the neck and either a Half
> Knot or a Granny  Knot tied at the front before adjusting the pin. M.
> LeBlanc credits Lord Byron with being the first to cross a tie at the
> nape of the neck instead of (stockwise) at the front.  : end quote:. I
> will be out of town for a few weeks starting Friday, so a jpeg might
> have to wait.  BTW, all of you H-cost folks going to Pennsic (SCA
> thingie), please stop by my wife's shop to chat with us (The Practical
> Goose Sutlery), or leave a note as to where you are camped and when a
> visit might be appropriate. Cheers, Mike T.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
>

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>But I was just curious what various programs people on the list 
(especially those that work in
 >costuming) had gotten their degrees in.
>
>thanks!
>.heather.


Got my BA in Business Administration.  All of the costuming and research is on the side, even though several people have suggested that I go back for a Master's.  My response - "Why?". I like what I'm doing, it's probably never going to be my means of earning a living and I think pursuing it academically might cause me to stop liking it.  I'm pretty self-motivated and don't like being told what I have to study.

Colleen


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From: "Saragrace T. Knauf" <saragrace@earthlink.net>
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Welcome Joe, you posted to the right place... you just happened to join on a
"what do you do for a living, where have you gone to school" sharing
discussion.  Normally there is more costume talk....just be patient...or ask
a question!  

Saragrace (a.k.a. Sg)


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On Wednesday, August 6, 2003, Sarra wrote:

> I don't know what I want to be when I grow up.

Hear, hear!

and here:  Allison

<ggg>

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From: Jean Waddie <anne@montgomerie.demon.co.uk>
Subject: [h-cost]Unemployment, WAS  What your degree in?
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I started re-enacting while I was at Uni, and made a few costumes, but I 
made more, and started tablet-weaving, when I was unemployed for a year 
after graduating.  It was scary to find, about four years ago, that I 
hadn't made any new costumes in all the time I'd been working!  (I've 
got started again now)

Jean


Saragrace T. Knauf <saragrace@earthlink.net> wrote
>>I've decided if you are going to be unemployed, might as well be unemployed
>
>>doing something you love!
>
>Moira
>_________________________
>This is SO true!  I have been unemployed for the last 6 months and am loving
>it!  If you had asked me a few years ago would I ever not work for 6 months
>I would have told you NO WAY!  It has completely changed my outlook on life.
>I will probably always work but take sabbaticals every few years.
>
>Sg
>
>
>_______________________________________________
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-- 
Jean Waddie
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Colleen,

I can understand but sometimes being told that you HAVE to take a class, can
open new doors.  Believe it or not, I didn't want to take computer classes.
I went in kicking and screaming.  And my first class was not a nice one...
MS DOS.  I came home every night and cried (and got a stiff drink.)  I made
it through the class, and HAD to take two more computer classes.  Well, I
fell in love with those classes... and took six more.

I went in kicking and screaming after taking art history... I took one
semester of seeing how many slides you can memorize.  I talked to my
professors and they substituted costume history and film history classes for
art history.  YIPPEE!!!! One thing about art history, I did learn the tricks
for memorizing dates and names.

Again, kicking and screaming that I didn't want to take a foreign
language...  I took yucky poetry instead.  Cried through that class too...
but used the class... one of my first clients wanted what????  Poetry on her
website.  BTW, I now wish that I had taken French.  A lot of my fashion
books need French translating.

You just never know what life has in store for you.

I can say this from my experience... don't take art history and costume
history in the same semester.  It can confuse the hell out of you.  Don't
take tech writing and creative writing in back to back semester.  It messes
your mind up.

Lastly, I put more into my time and effort into my costume classes than any
other classes.  There is a lot of information to learn.  In one costume
history class, we started out with 30 something students and ended the class
with four.  A lot of people think it will be an easy class.  Its not.  It
requires a lot of hours of studying a week.  One of my final exams was five
hours long.

Penny Ladnier
Owner, The Costume Gallery & Costume Classroom
www.costumegallery.com
www.costumeclassroom.com


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From: "Saragrace T. Knauf" <saragrace@earthlink.net>
To: "'Historical Costume'" <h-costume@indra.com>
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 16:40:50 -0700
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Subject: [h-cost] Classes you dread-was] what's your degree in?
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Great advice Penny......

One of my favorite stories to tell is when I was in school the first time in
the late 70's a freshman Biology student was whining to me about having to
take speech, English..etc.  I said to him "Has it ever occurred to you that
having all the information in the world is usless to you if you are unable
to communicate it?"  He got this bright - "lightbulb just went on" look and
said..."You know you are right...geeze you are pretty smart for a girl."  


I don't question any requirement for the same reasons...okay, I really don't
want to have to take differential equations again...but if I have to I
will....

Sg

-----Original Message-----
From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com] On
Behalf Of Penny Ladnier
Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2003 4:02 PM
To: Historical Costume
Subject: Re: [h-cost] what's your degree in?


Colleen,

I can understand........

Penny Ladnier
Owner, The Costume Gallery & Costume Classroom www.costumegallery.com
www.costumeclassroom.com


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From: Mara Riley <mara@rileyhome.net>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Photo of wired coif, made with Saragrace's pattern
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>
>http://www.kipar.org/society/events/03-08_hands-on-history.html

Great pics! and great job on the coif!
Ok, what is Sophie wearing?  A jacket?  Wish I could see the details 
better, but because it's black, it's not showing up well...

-- Mara

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Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 20:00:17 -0400
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Mara Riley <mara@rileyhome.net>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] 1890s Victorian beauty concept/ideas?
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Was listening to an interview with the author of _Strapless_, a new book 
about the subject of Sargent's painting "Portrait of Madame X", and 
apparently she got that ghostly-pale look with rice flour face powder.  She 
also rouged her ears <G>.

-- Mara

At 04:01 PM 8/5/2003 +0100, you wrote:
>My seamstress friend's big wedding (it's being filmed by channel 4) is this
>year and we are all invited to come in costume, no matter which petiod. 
>She has
>been a re-eactor for many years and is making lovely histoprical costumes.
>
>However, she is totally stressed out and asked me if I could possibly research
>1890s beauty products/looks for her, because her wedding dress will be 
>1890s. I
>told her that I'd try on this list, because really, this is a gold mine of
>information. She also asked me to do her make-up (she's blind as a bat without
>her spectacles) and I'd really like to know what look I should try to achieve:
>pale? natural? I feel quite honoured that she asked me to do this for her, 
>thus
>I'd really really appreciate help in pointing me to the right direction (I 
>have
>NO clue whatsoever about this period).
>
>Thanks in advance
>
>Nicole
>
>=====
>One of the Three Baroque Love Goddess    ~apparently
>
>Email: nicole@kipar.org
>URL: http://www.kipar.org
>
>________________________________________________________________________
>Want to chat instantly with your online friends?  Get the FREE Yahoo!
>Messenger http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com/
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On Wednesday 06 August 2003 10:38 am, Stephen Bergdahl wrote:
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Sue Clemenger" <mooncat@in-tch.com>
> To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2003 5:43 AM
> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Our very smart people on this list! Was:
> what'syourdegree in?
>
> > Me, too! ;o) I'm definitely a research and embroidery junkie.  Well, and
> > a fabric junkie, too.
>
> Ok, I am strange, I would much rather cut and sew then have to do research.
> I can do the research if I have to, but it gives me no joy.  

No, you're not strange, Stephen.  You just have a different preference from 
some of us.  :-)

The interesting (I refuse to say "strange") thing about my preference is that 
while I have little desire to sew, my craving is not satisfied simply by 
either researching or designing costumes.  It's important to me to be able to 
translate my ideas into something I can enjoy wearing.


-- 
Cathy Raymond <cathy@thyrsus.com>

“No man is rich enough to buy back his 
past.”  Oscar Wilde

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On Wednesday 06 August 2003 09:02 am, Sheryl Nance-Durst wrote:
> My bachelors is in mathematics.
> My masters is in library and information science.
> Weird combination, I know. :)

Not at all.  In fact, compared to some of the combinations people have posted, 
it makes sense if you wanted a career running an engineering or technical 
library (though I've no idea how common such jobs are).  :-)

Actually, I've been having a bit of an inferiority complex here--my degrees 
seem so staid and mundane, compared to the marvelous combinations being 
displayed by other members of the list.


-- 
Cathy Raymond <cathy@thyrsus.com>

“No man is rich enough to buy back his 
past.”  Oscar Wilde

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 Where did Mara Reiley's site on Scottish clothing of the middle ages go
(http://www47.pair.com/lindo)? The server administrator said that it was
no longer there.
   I was in the middle of research for clothing of the Scottish highland
nobles from 16th century when it vanished. I would love to find it
again, as my wardrobe is not yet
complete. :o)
Slainte,
Joe
---
Joe Robertson, Psy.D.
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Penny,  Thanks for asking.  I highly recommend a degree in Anthropology
for parenting twins.  Not a very lucrative use of 4 yrs of college but
it worked for me.  Another good use of an Anth degree is customer
service so for money, I'm working part time for the Dept of Motor
Vehicles for the State of New York and running a custom sewing business,
that's kind of off and on at the moment.  Before my mother died I use to
repair and do reproduction period clothing for all the antique dolls she
got into her antique shop as well as quilt and costume repair.  Most of
my serious costume stuff got put on hold 16 yrs ago and I'm only just
now able to come back to it. Raising twin boys with high IQ's, Adhd and
hyperactivity problems with no near by family support left me no time. I
have missed it so much.     Margaret

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From: Catherine Olanich Raymond <cathy@thyrsus.com>
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: How did you get started in historic  costuming? Was:
	Maybe we should change the subject? Was: degrees
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 20:45:48 -0400
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On Wednesday 06 August 2003 05:07 am, Carolyn Kayta Barrows wrote:
> >>Maybe we should change the subject to the one that has been asked
> >>before..How did you get started in historic costuming, where do you see
> >>yourself in the 'heirarchy' of 'serious' to recreational costumer and
> >>why....
[snip]

> I'm not a costume scholar.  I am serious about the recreation of costumes,
> but my strong point is shapes and patterns.  I notice how things like
> sleeves morph over the decades, and am pretty good at spotting new
> influences as they begin to show up in the fashion plates before they
> become really fashionable.  

I envy you that ability.  I've been trying to learn it for years by constant 
comparison of images over time, and only recently have I begun to develop an 
eye for that level of detail.


>So my costumes are usually the right shape and
> proportion, even if they are not always made of the right fabrics
> (sometimes totally wrong on purpose).  I get most of my information about
> any period from practically meditating on contemporary images, and am quick
> to notice the differences between the original and subsequent
> re-drawings.  

This is tough for me, unless the difference is pretty glaring.

>Reading comprehension is difficult for me, so I get very
> little information from the text in my costume books, however scholarly.

That may not be a reading comprehension problem.  That may just be an 
indication that most costume books are very poorly written.

I am very word-oriented and, despite the old adage can usually get more 
information from text than from pictures--but not if the text meanders, and 
wanders from point to point without organization, and fails to organize what 
information is presented in a logical way.  I used to blame myself for this 
problem, too, until I'd acquired enough different books that I'd begun to 
notice that the texts of some were much more useful than those of others even 
if both addressed the same subject matter.


-- 
Cathy Raymond <cathy@thyrsus.com>

“No man is rich enough to buy back his 
past.”  Oscar Wilde

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----- Original Message -----
From: "Margaret Baird " <beads@traknet.com>
To: <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2003 8:37 PM
Subject: [h-cost] RE: h-costume Digest, Vol 2, Issue 481


. Raising twin boys with high IQ's, Adhd and
> hyperactivity problems with no near by family support left me no time. I
> have missed it so much.     Margaret


And here I pitied myself because three (possibly four) of my boys have
it--at least they are spaced a ways apart!  I also have no family close by,
but my sisters and I all have ADD/ADHD, and my nephew does as well, so I
always have an understanding shoulder to cry on.

OTOH, with twins, when you're done, you're done. My oldest ADHD child is
going to be twenty in a few weeks, and the youngest is only 21 months.

Dianne

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To Joe:

This is what I've got bookmarked, hope it's what you're looking for....

http://www.reconstructinghistory.com/scottish/medievalscot.html

Theresa Eacker

Joe Robertson wrote:
>  Where did Mara Reiley's site on Scottish clothing of the middle ages go
> (http://www47.pair.com/lindo)? The server administrator said that it was
> no longer there.
>    I was in the middle of research for clothing of the Scottish highland
> nobles from 16th century when it vanished. I would love to find it
> again, as my wardrobe is not yet
> complete. :o)
> Slainte,
> Joe
> ---
> Joe Robertson, Psy.D.
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
> 


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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
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I double-majored in History (mostly European, 16th-18th, some Am. Colonial, 
and some 20th c. WWII) and Religion.  The two go together rather well, 
actually, considering the impact that the latter has on the former, and 
vice versa.

Cheers,
Mara

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----- Original Message -----
From: "Dawn Wood" <dawn@agesofelegance.co.uk>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2003 2:43 AM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] what's your degree in?


<snip>
>  I have been tempted to do the Courtaulds MA in costume but it's a dry
> course (there aren't any practical research degrees over here sadly) and
> apart from it being easier to publish research etc is not really going to
> help. I also applied a few years ago to do a theatre costume degree but
was
> told it probably wasn't worth my while as I'd been in the business and
> earned a crust without one

<snip>

I actually applied to and was accepted by this program about... six years
ago.  Broke my heart not to go, but I realized that I wasn't really willing
to risk the slim chances of costume-related museum jobs.  Now that I'm an
academic (I'm a librarian) and doing research in more of the social/cultural
history of fashion/clothing, it's a dream to do a similar degree, although I
think I'm more interested in the MA in the History of Textiles & Dress at
Southampton as it seems to include more social/cultural history along with
the art history side.  Although since my focus is on the US, it would be
great if there were such a program on this side of the pond!

Of course, working full-time probably precludes yet ANOTHER degree -- but if
I ever win the lottery, that's what I'm doing.  Well, that and sleeping in.
And buying all the silk I want.  :)

- Kendra
http://demode.tweedlebop.com

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Subject: [h-cost] Forward from museum list
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Please reply to:   Candace Perry <candace@SCHWENKFELDER.COM>

Subject: brown wedding gowns

 

I am curator of a small history museum that interprets the heritage of a
small PA German Protestant group, and I have noticed an interesting (at
least to me!) phenomenon regarding the wedding gowns of the group
members in the late 19th century.  We have at least 4 rather similar
BROWN dresses from the 1880s-90s.  They are typical in style for that
time period, they are silk with various trims.  I am aware that the
white wedding is a 20th century thing, more or less, but I've never run
into so many similar dresses from different brides from this time
period. Makes for a pretty dull wedding exhibit!!! I am trying to
determine if this was another peculiarity of this group, or actually
might have been fashionable for brides to wear brown in that time
period.  Can't say I've run into it in other collections.  A bit of
background -- the group (the Schwenkfelders) were conservative and
modest but not "plain"  and they were members of rural communities, for
the most part. Looking forward to any input, Candace Perry Schwenfelder
Library & Heritage Center

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Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 20:57:31 -0400
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Mara Riley <mara@rileyhome.net>
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Subject: [h-cost] 
 How'd we get into costuming, was Re: Maybe we should change
  the subject
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At 08:33 PM 8/5/2003 -0700, you wrote:
> >No biggie, as far as I'm concerned.  My husband doesn't have a degree
>either.

Nor mine...  and he makes twice what I do.  <G>

>Maybe we should change the subject to the one that has been asked
>before..How did you get started in historic costuming, where do you see
>yourself in the 'heirarchy' of 'serious' to recreational costumer and
>why....

LOL!  I think I started off reading fairy tales and seeing princesses in 
long dresses.  My mom swears I wouldn't wear regular clothing as a child 
and insisted that she make me long dresses so I could dress like the 
heroines in the fairy tale books!  (And she's probably right.)

My mom sews, taught me to sew, and I've never looked back...

-- Mara

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From: Robin Netherton <robin@shell.nightowl.net>
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On Wed, 6 Aug 2003, Margaret Baird wrote:

> I am curator of a small history museum that interprets the heritage of
> a small PA German Protestant group, and I have noticed an interesting
> (at least to me!) phenomenon regarding the wedding gowns of the group
> members in the late 19th century.  We have at least 4 rather similar
> BROWN dresses from the 1880s-90s.  They are typical in style for that
> time period, they are silk with various trims.  I am aware that the
> white wedding is a 20th century thing, more or less, but I've never
> run into so many similar dresses from different brides from this time
> period. Makes for a pretty dull wedding exhibit!!! I am trying to
> determine if this was another peculiarity of this group, or actually
> might have been fashionable for brides to wear brown in that time
> period.

I know this is an outside chance, but could there have been a popular dye
at the time that "turned" browner over the years -- say, a deep red?
Something that would have been expensive or otherwise reserved for special
occasions? If the dresses have all been kept separately this is probably
less likely, but if they've all been stored in the same facility, there
could be something about the environment there that has encouraged the dye
to change. Just a wild guess, that you might be able to rule out if all
the browns are different and the insides of the seams, etc. don't show any
inconsistencies.

What would be ideal would be written accounts to cross-check against. Does
the museum have letters from this period, or diaries, in which people
might have described weddings?

And do other dresses (that aren't wedding dresses) show a broader variety
of color?

--Robin

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Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 20:52:18 -0500
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Sheryl Nance-Durst <sherylnd@kc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] what's your degree in?
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At 08:27 PM 8/6/03 -0400, you wrote:
>On Wednesday 06 August 2003 09:02 am, Sheryl Nance-Durst wrote:
> > My bachelors is in mathematics.
> > My masters is in library and information science.
> > Weird combination, I know. :)
>
>Not at all.  In fact, compared to some of the combinations people have 
>posted,
>it makes sense if you wanted a career running an engineering or technical
>library (though I've no idea how common such jobs are).  :-)

Nope. I actually work in a public library as a general reference librarian.
However, I am married to a computer programmer which seems to be a very
common occurrence for a costumer!

>Actually, I've been having a bit of an inferiority complex here--my degrees
>seem so staid and mundane, compared to the marvelous combinations being
>displayed by other members of the list.

My favorites so far have been the law degree, the physics and the chemistry.
And all of those artsy-type degrees are making me envious!

Sheryl Nance-Durst

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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Sheryl Nance-Durst <sherylnd@kc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] what's your degree in?
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At 06:03 PM 8/6/03 +1000, Glenda wrote:
>Gee, I feel SO undereducated!
>
>I only have one degree - Bach. Applied Science in Mathematics, majoring in
>Computing and Operations Research.  I still work in the computing field.
>
>The mathematics has come in handy, I think, because I have little problems
>drafting patterns, even though I am completely non-artistic. Don't use it
>for much else, apart from helping the kids with their homework.

Yes! Another math person! You're right - an aptitude for math does help
in drafting patterns. Maybe that's why I draft so many of my own instead
of using patterns.

Sheryl Nance-Durst

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From: Catherine Olanich Raymond <cathy@thyrsus.com>
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: degrees and an observation
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 22:21:50 -0400
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On Wednesday 06 August 2003 12:21 pm, Cozit / Liz wrote:
[snip]

> Ever since then I've figured that sci-fi cons were the outlet that geeks
> created for their "creative side" :-)    (Sigh... and some of those
> things are rather amusing when you dress "normal"... some of you out
> there have heard of the term "freaking the mundanes"... or just
> "wierding out" the normal folks?  

Oh yes.  I've been going to SF conventions for over 20 years now.


>I have friends who have been known to
> mess with the minds of some of the die-hard fans.  *g* 

[Wow, I even have obligatory costume content for this one!]

I've known several fen who wear business suits to cons--on purpose, because it 
felt right to them, or because they had been somewhere they needed to wear a 
suit to and hadn't felt like changing clothes.  

At cons, I usually wear either one of my historic costumes, or the sort of 
things I usually wear to our (business casual) office, namely, a sweater or 
top under a jacket, and chinos or khaki pants.

At the cons I've attended most, fans wear anything from T-shirts (nearly 
always with an...interesting picture or slogan) to peasant skirts and 
blouses, to historic costume, to alien or futuristic costume, to ....next to 
nothing, in some cases.  And the jewelry....some of it was lovely, some 
tacky, some garish, and some ghastly, but most of it was exotic, or at least 
unique....

At a fannish masquerade dance (wasn't a formal Masquerade at all, by any 
means), one handsome young man made waves by fashioning bubble wrap into a 
plausible superhero costume (trunks and cape) and making a dramatic entrance 
down a bubble-wrap carpet as "Bubble Man!"

I guess my point is that there are rigid-minded people in all groups, but 
among the folk I was privileged to hang out with, being fannish meant being 
tolerant of differences, including differences in things like tastes in 
clothes....


> And yeah, I'll do
> it to idiots if they give me an opening.  One of the cons I went to out
> in Oregon, I was pregnant, so had my "normal" t-shirt pregnant clothes
> on... and was on my own.  The fact that I was in line to register should
> have tipped of the dunces behind me... but no.  Two of them told their
> friends to "behave, she's going to think we're all strange"... because
> they were having an evil laugh contest.  No contest... the one that came
> from me a few moments later had them stunned, and one down kowtowing
>
> :-)   Costumes don't *always* look like something "unusual"  :-)

Very, very true.

:-)


-- 
Cathy Raymond <cathy@thyrsus.com>

“No man is rich enough to buy back his 
past.”  Oscar Wilde

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I majored in Fashion Merchandising, which for some reason gets you a
Bachelor of Family and Consumer Sciences (BFCS) at UGA.

Worked in retail for the first 3 years out of college, only to realize that
selling clothes didn't really feed my love of fashion or of history. I
re-trained myself in computers and now work in web development.

"Unofficial" schooling - costume/sewing/embellishment classes when I can get
them, programming/IT architecture/computing classes when I can (through
work).

I'm much more of a costume hobbyist, and plan to keep it that way, at least
for the near future!

Allison T.

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Subject: Re: [h-cost] what's your degree in?
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At 8:27 PM -0400 8/6/03, Catherine Olanich Raymond wrote:
>On Wednesday 06 August 2003 09:02 am, Sheryl Nance-Durst wrote:
>>  My bachelors is in mathematics.
>>  My masters is in library and information science.
>>  Weird combination, I know. :)
>
>Not at all.  In fact, compared to some of the combinations people have posted,
>it makes sense if you wanted a career running an engineering or technical
>library (though I've no idea how common such jobs are).  :-)
>
>Actually, I've been having a bit of an inferiority complex here--my degrees
>seem so staid and mundane, compared to the marvelous combinations being
>displayed by other members of the list.

Sometimes "weird combinations" aren't, after all.  Here I am with my 
BS in Zoology and my (really really close to being signed off) PhD in 
linguistics, and I've landed a job editing biotech documents.  And 
_none_ of it particularly contributed to my costuming interests.

Heather
-- 
*****
Heather Rose Jones
hrjones@socrates.berkeley.edu
*****
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From: Catherine Olanich Raymond <cathy@thyrsus.com>
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: Maybe we should change the subject? Was: [h-cost] degrees
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On Tuesday 05 August 2003 11:33 pm, Saragrace T. Knauf wrote:
[snip]

> Maybe we should change the subject to the one that has been asked
> before..How did you get started in historic costuming, where do you see
> yourself in the 'heirarchy' of 'serious' to recreational costumer and
> why....

Sure, why not?  At least it's on topic.  :-)

The funny thing is that although I can describe my first steps on the road, 
I'm no longer sure exactly why I got interested in costuming.  

When I was 12 or so, they showed the BBC's Masterpiece Theatre version of "The 
Six Wives of Henry VIII" in my area for the very first time.  I became 
fascinated--but with the story, and the history behind it, not really with 
the costumes themselves.  They showed the BBC version of "Elizabeth I" (the 
one with Glenda Jackson as Elizabeth I) soon after, and I devoured that as 
well.

A few months later, I got a library card for my local library, and began 
checking out books on Henry, Elizabeth, Catherine of Aragon, Thomas More, and 
other 16th C. luminaries as to which my library stocked biographies.  I 
proceeded from there to reading books on 16th c. English history, and from 
there to reading about English history in general.

Eventually, as I started running out of interesting history books to read, I 
noticed that the library stocked most of what I now know to be C. Willett and 
Phyllis Cunnington's surveys of English costume for various periods.  I 
started reading those...and started looking for other books on historic 
costuming.  

Later still, I attempted to make my own costumes based (rather loosely, I 
admit) on what I'd read in the Cunnington books, among others, even before I 
had anywhere to wear costumes outside of Halloween parties.  My mother, who 
sewed in a dress factory to earn a living, patiently taught me how to use a 
sewing machine and helped me with my first efforts (though since she was a 
pieceworker who specialized in button sewing by machine, she didn't know that 
much more than I did about sewing clothing from scratch).

By the time I got to college, reading costume history (and making costumes 
when I had the time and the money for supplies) had become a definite 
avocation for me.

As to where I fall on the spectrum, I am definitely a recreational costumer.  
Why?   The basic reason is that I lack both the time and the patience to 
devote the kind of attention that original research and recreation of 
historic costume demands.  So I've become a dilletante of costume reading.  I 
enjoy reading about costume from almost any period and region--especially if 
it's one about which I previously knew little or nothing.  


-- 
Cathy Raymond <cathy@thyrsus.com>

“No man is rich enough to buy back his 
past.”  Oscar Wilde

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Well, there certainly are a lot of us math/science folks on the list!

I have degrees in math and computer science (Lawrence Technological 
University - Southfield, Michigan), but learned to sew at my mother's knee.

They seem perfectly compatible to me, especially when alterations are 
necessary.

I also knit and frequently use calculus to estimate the yardage of yarn I 
need.  It works quite accurately.

It's good mental exercise to use both sides of your brain!
Michelle
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Sarah Jane Edwards wrote:

>Thanks, Mike. The instructions were pretty clear, so right now I don't think
>I'll need the jpeg. I have an illustration in a fashion book, but no
>instructions on how to tie it. I thought it was so nice looking, I'm
>thrilled I can try it out now! Thanks so much, I really appreciate your
>help.
>
>Sarah
>
>  
>
Glad I could help. Cheers, Mike T.

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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Wed Aug  6 23:22:45 2003
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From: Cynthia Corley <cyncorley@yahoo.com>
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Subject: [h-cost] re:what's your degree in?
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I have a BA in theatre from Univ. California at Irvine
and an MA in theatre from the Univ. of Exeter in the
UK. I really wish I had taken more costume and history
classes while I had the chance--I've worked steadily
in tech theatre (costume and scene painting)and
teaching ever since, but I really feel like I didn't
take full advantage of all the courses offered. 
Shop the catalogue at your prospective
university--don't limit yourself to just one
department! A good (and flexible)academic advisor will
help you follow your interests and get the credits you
need for your degree. I love what a wide and
fascinating variety of skills and backgrounds everyone
has on this list-- when I grow up I want to be a
Renaissance woman too! :-) 

=====
Art is not a mirror held up to reality but a hammer with which to shape it.   Bertolt Brecht

__________________________________
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Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software
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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Wed Aug  6 23:38:29 2003
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From: "Saragrace knauf" <saragrace@earthlink.net>
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Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 20:38:26 -0700
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Subject: [h-cost] Flemish Garb Email list open to public now....
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Hi all, based on great interest, I have opened the Yahoo Group for
Flemish Garb up to the public.  If you are interested, you can join
here:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Flemish_Garb/

Saragrace

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Subject: [h-cost] Costume College pictures
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I've posted my photos from Costume College... if you're interested, have a gander at:

http://demode.tweedlebop.com/CC_2003/

- Kendra
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Allison,

I think we can blame Drea for all the computer gurus on the list!!!!!
LOL!!!!  She was the first computer person I met on the list in 1995 or 6.
I have noticed more and more as the years have passed too.

Just teasing Drea.... I love computer gurus... married one and gave birth to
two.

Penny Ladnier
Owner, The Costume Gallery & Costume Classroom
www.costumegallery.com
www.costumeclassroom.com

> My observation is this:  It's very interesting to note how many
> costumers on this list (hobbyists or otherwise) also work in the fields
> of computer science/technology.  It also seems to be the norm for folks
> involved in SCA.


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I'd guess you could blame that on the internet.

If this list were distributed by carrier pigeon, I'd guess we'd have a  
lot of bird lovers on the list as well!


On Wednesday, August 6, 2003, at 09:58 PM, Penny Ladnier wrote:

> Allison,
>
> I think we can blame Drea for all the computer gurus on the list!!!!!
> LOL!!!!  She was the first computer person I met on the list in 1995 
> or 6.
> I have noticed more and more as the years have passed too.
>
> Just teasing Drea.... I love computer gurus... married one and gave 
> birth to
> two.
>
> Penny Ladnier
> Owner, The Costume Gallery & Costume Classroom
> www.costumegallery.com
> www.costumeclassroom.com
>
>> My observation is this:  It's very interesting to note how many
>> costumers on this list (hobbyists or otherwise) also work in the 
>> fields
>> of computer science/technology.  It also seems to be the norm for 
>> folks
>> involved in SCA.
>
>
> [This E-mail was scanned for viruses by Plugit.com Virus Scanners 
> (http://www.plugit.com)]
>
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
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>

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I feel the same way!!!
I'm about to take 'early retirement' next spring(if all goes well!) --and start to really indulge my love of jewelry,embroidery, and costumne making ----WHO knows who I could grow into??
 It's funny that with my technical job---in telecommunications--all these years--  my 'wierd quirk' --the stuff I do for the pure, relaxing,  pleasure of it all---has been historical re-creationist activites---making garb (all my father's fault from all those 'swash-buckling' Erroll Flynn and Burt Lancaster stuff I watched  with him when I was little:), then making jewelry to go with it--then needing to learn to make the shoes to go with , then hats and headresses--then the gloves--- the embroideries----then teaching  these above activites---who knows where will it all end?? (wry grin)
Albra

Allison <allivox@comcast.net> wrote:
On Wednesday, August 6, 2003, Sarra wrote:

> I don't know what I want to be when I grow up.

Hear, hear!

and here: Allison



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You might want to look into the traditions of the culture and the religion.
Maybe there is a reason for the brown color.

My second guess is that it was a dye that discolored.

Third guess, that they might have been stored in something that discolored
them.  I have seen cream colored pants from the 1970s stored improperly and
donated to a museum.  The pants turned tan in that short of years.

Penny Ladnier
Owner, The Costume Gallery & Costume Classroom
www.costumegallery.com
www.costumeclassroom.com


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Heather,

So true!!!!!!!

Penny Ladnier
Owner, The Costume Gallery & Costume Classroom
www.costumegallery.com
www.costumeclassroom.com


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Albra,

Congrads on the retirement!!!!!  Now its all fun ahead!!!!

Penny Ladnier
Owner, The Costume Gallery & Costume Classroom
www.costumegallery.com
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Subject: [h-cost] Degrees and getting into costuming
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Well, I'll try to get both ideas into one post.
I have a BS in Chemistry also (Hi, Amanda!).  My DH has a BS in Mechanical 
Engineering, plus a whole bunch of courses in computer science.  I'm a 
computer programmer, he works for a retail store (for the past several 
years as stockroom manager, has also done most other jobs there).  Go figure.
I hate sewing too, but have to do it to be able to wear the stuff I 
want.  He likes to sew and does all his costumes.  We actually have a 
pretty good division of labor - he does the patterns (big surprise, with 
the eng. degree, also I can't draw a straight line with a ruler), we both 
cut and do machine work, he does all the hand work (I hate it and he's MUCH 
faster at it than I am), but I pick the colors and do the fine tuning on 
fitting.  He's the one with the fancy embroidery machine, so we can turn 
out all kinds of neato stuff.
We do mostly fantasy and science fiction stuff, and go to conventions and 
all that.  We have plans to do several historical projects, but there 
always seems to be a more important F/SF project that needs to be done 
first.  However, as there is really nothing new under the sun, many of our 
fantasy designs have historical bases or elements.  That's why we're on 
this list, have gotten so much great info here that's helped with a 
particular problem at one time or another.

Pierre and Sandy

"Those Who Fail To Learn History
Are Doomed To Repeat It;
Those Who Fail To Learn History Correctly--
Why They Are Simply Doomed."

Achemdro'hm
"The Illusion of Historical Fact"
-- C.Y. 4971

Andromeda


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Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 08:19:08 +0100 (BST)
From: =?iso-8859-1?q?N=20Kipar?= <nicolas_fouquet@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Costume College pictures
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 --- Kendra Van Cleave <kendra@tweedlebop.com> wrote: > I've posted my photos
from Costume College... if you're interested, have a
> gander at:
> 
> http://demode.tweedlebop.com/CC_2003/
> 

Lovely photos, thanks Kendra! You look stunning, by the way. :-)

Nicole

=====
One of the Three Baroque Love Goddess    
http://www.kipar.org/society/events/lichfield03/saturday-lurve-goddesses.jpg

Email: nicole@kipar.org
URL: http://www.kipar.org

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 --- Mara Riley <mara@rileyhome.net> wrote: > 
> >
> >http://www.kipar.org/society/events/03-08_hands-on-history.html
> 
> Great pics! and great job on the coif!
> Ok, what is Sophie wearing?  A jacket?  Wish I could see the details 
> better, but because it's black, it's not showing up well...

It's dark green, but taht's always the proble with everything dark I suppose.
Yes, it is a jacket over stays. She didn't have enough time to make the sleeves
detachable, but I know of examples of non-detachable sleeves, though the
detachable ones are more common.

Nicole 

=====
One of the Three Baroque Love Goddess    
http://www.kipar.org/society/events/lichfield03/saturday-lurve-goddesses.jpg

Email: nicole@kipar.org
URL: http://www.kipar.org

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From: "Dawn Wood" <dawn@agesofelegance.co.uk>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] what's your degree in?
Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 10:13:45 +0100
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yes I've thought about the Southampton one as well but realised that I can
pretty much do the same course myself in-between work and I won't have to
lose out on earnings to do it after all who needs an MA and the research
grants which come with it (ok it would be nice)
I was on the committee of Medats for a while and the only one who had never
written, lectured or had letters after my name but I knew as much as the
others in one respect and none of them had ever picked a needle up to
actually make the things they were talking about and I decided then I would
prefer to do it my way. My work is so varied that I can cover a much wider
area in the long run.
Maybe when I retire LOL

dawn
Ages Of Elegance makers of Historical reproduction Clothing, Uniforms and
Bridalwear
 http://www.agesofelegance.co.uk 0113 277 6716

, although I
> think I'm more interested in the MA in the History of Textiles & Dress at
> Southampton as it seems to include more social/cultural history along with
> the art history side.


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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: degrees and an observation
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I own birds, and I really would rather not belong to any list distributed by
them. What they don't chew up, they leave..umm..."presents" on.  :-)

Dianne
the token bird lover!


----- Original Message -----
From: "Heather Meadows" <alice@wonderland.com>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Thursday, August 07, 2003 1:19 AM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: degrees and an observation


> I'd guess you could blame that on the internet.
>
> If this list were distributed by carrier pigeon, I'd guess we'd have a
> lot of bird lovers on the list as well!
>
>
> On Wednesday, August 6, 2003, at 09:58 PM, Penny Ladnier wrote:
>
> > Allison,
> >
> > I think we can blame Drea for all the computer gurus on the list!!!!!
> > LOL!!!!  She was the first computer person I met on the list in 1995
> > or 6.
> > I have noticed more and more as the years have passed too.
> >
> > Just teasing Drea.... I love computer gurus... married one and gave
> > birth to
> > two.
> >
> > Penny Ladnier
> > Owner, The Costume Gallery & Costume Classroom
> > www.costumegallery.com
> > www.costumeclassroom.com
> >
> >> My observation is this:  It's very interesting to note how many
> >> costumers on this list (hobbyists or otherwise) also work in the
> >> fields
> >> of computer science/technology.  It also seems to be the norm for
> >> folks
> >> involved in SCA.
> >
> >
> > [This E-mail was scanned for viruses by Plugit.com Virus Scanners
> > (http://www.plugit.com)]
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > h-costume mailing list
> > h-costume@mail.indra.com
> > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Costume College pictures
Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 23:25:05 +1200
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> --- Kendra Van Cleave <kendra@tweedlebop.com> wrote: > I've posted my
photos
> from Costume College... if you're interested, have a
> > gander at:
> >
> > http://demode.tweedlebop.com/CC_2003/

Ok. firstly, writhing in jealousy;) But as there was no way I could get ther
it's all fine I suppose;)

hunh;)

And at first I was like.. how am I going to recognise her... ahh yes, the
crazy cool black and white satin bodice:) I remember it:)

And now I have to ask, as I do have a big old Moulin Rouge costuming site;),
who made the Grey dress from Moulin Rouge?:) And will this page be staying
so I can link to it? Can I link to it? If the page isn't staying can I host
the image at my site. If* I need her permission as well is there any way to
forward this on to ask her?

It's a costume I'd like to make once I have enough material to make a grey
wool and black velvet dress... which is not right now... heaps of pink
sateen, and teal cotton velvet.. but no grey wool;)

And my usual trick of making something from a blanket is not going to work
here;)

michaela
http://costumes.glittersweet.com
http://moulinrouge.glittersweet.com

*In NZ it's ok to take a photo of someone without their permission (I think
in a public arena) and you have to ask the person who took the photo for the
rights to use it... which is a bit on the nose if you didn't expect to have
a photo taken really...


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Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 04:31:22 -0700
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Carolyn Kayta Barrows <kayta@frys.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Costume College pictures
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>And my usual trick of making something from a blanket is not going to work
>here;)

"Maybe you could sew together many strips of satiny blanket binding?", said 
Kayta, totally unhelpfully.

        CarolynKayta Barrows
dollmaker, fibre artist, textillian
          www.FunStuft.com

              //// \\\
             ////-@@\\\
            ((((   7 )))
             (((  <> ))))
                )   ((((((
           /----\   /---\))

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Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 06:13:26 -0700 (PDT)
From: KATHRYN WOLTERS <albrakat7@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Costume College pictures
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
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great photos--! sorry I missed the Gala:(
Albra

N Kipar <nicolas_fouquet@yahoo.com> wrote:
--- Kendra Van Cleave wrote: > I've posted my photos
from Costume College... if you're interested, have a
> gander at:
> 
> http://demode.tweedlebop.com/CC_2003/
> 

Lovely photos, thanks Kendra! You look stunning, by the way. :-)

Nicole

=====
One of the Three Baroque Love Goddess 
http://www.kipar.org/society/events/lichfield03/saturday-lurve-goddesses.jpg

Email: nicole@kipar.org
URL: http://www.kipar.org

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From: "Beteena Paradise" <bkessinger@ureach.com>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
References: <5.2.0.9.2.20030806195912.01ebde90@mail.rileyhome.net>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] 1890s Victorian beauty concept/ideas?
Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 09:15:06 -0400
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Ooooh.... He is one of my favorite painters!
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mara Riley" <mara@rileyhome.net>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2003 8:00 PM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] 1890s Victorian beauty concept/ideas?


> Was listening to an interview with the author of _Strapless_, a new book
> about the subject of Sargent's painting "Portrait of Madame X", and
> apparently she got that ghostly-pale look with rice flour face powder.
She
> also rouged her ears <G>.
>
> -- Mara
>
> At 04:01 PM 8/5/2003 +0100, you wrote:
> >My seamstress friend's big wedding (it's being filmed by channel 4) is
this
> >year and we are all invited to come in costume, no matter which petiod.
> >She has
> >been a re-eactor for many years and is making lovely histoprical
costumes.
> >
> >However, she is totally stressed out and asked me if I could possibly
research
> >1890s beauty products/looks for her, because her wedding dress will be
> >1890s. I
> >told her that I'd try on this list, because really, this is a gold mine
of
> >information. She also asked me to do her make-up (she's blind as a bat
without
> >her spectacles) and I'd really like to know what look I should try to
achieve:
> >pale? natural? I feel quite honoured that she asked me to do this for
her,
> >thus
> >I'd really really appreciate help in pointing me to the right direction
(I
> >have
> >NO clue whatsoever about this period).
> >
> >Thanks in advance
> >
> >Nicole
> >
> >=====
> >One of the Three Baroque Love Goddess    ~apparently
> >
> >Email: nicole@kipar.org
> >URL: http://www.kipar.org
> >
> >________________________________________________________________________
> >Want to chat instantly with your online friends?  Get the FREE Yahoo!
> >Messenger http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com/
> >_______________________________________________
> >h-costume mailing list
> >h-costume@mail.indra.com
> >http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
>
>

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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Thu Aug  7 09:34:14 2003
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From: "Beteena Paradise" <bkessinger@ureach.com>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
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	<004f01c35c6e$b554d720$0400a8c0@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] what's your degree in?
Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 09:28:23 -0400
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Penny Ladnier" <penny@costumegallery.com>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2003 7:01 PM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] what's your degree in?


> I can say this from my experience... don't take art history and costume
> history in the same semester.  It can confuse the hell out of you.  Don't
> take tech writing and creative writing in back to back semester.  It
messes
> your mind up.
>

I would have to say my worst semester was:
Physics 2
Calculus 2
C programming
Assembly Language
Advanced Data Structures
Hitchcock Films (stress reliever!)

My mind was mush at the end of every day. Much better to space these things
out with some electives!

OCC:  I wore clothes to class.

Teena

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Subject: [h-cost] Re: career choices
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On Wednesday, August 6, 2003, Sarra wrote:

> I don't know what I want to be when I grow up.

Hear, hear!

and here:  Allison

<ggg>

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

We have to grow up????  Darn!

when :)?

Catherine
50 and counting
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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Thu Aug  7 11:21:25 2003
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From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" <drewscph@post12.tele.dk>
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Subject: [h-cost] costume college pictures
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Hi Kendra,
Lovely pictures from the College. And all those beautifull
hats...............
Thanks for letting us see

Bjarne





Leif og Bjarne Drews
www.my-drewscostumes.dk

http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/


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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Thu Aug  7 11:24:50 2003
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Subject: [h-cost] re: degrees
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Hi!    
Delurking to join this fun conversation. I have a Bachelor's of Science in Nursing from Ind. Univ., & a Master's in Pastoral Studies from Loyola of New Orleans. I have been "medically retired" for about 4 years D/T fibro.
When I was growing up, my mother did not sew. I refused to take home ec in high school; didn't take typing either. I graduated from HS in 1970. It wasn't cool to take those classes then. Took Art & Humanities instead. Now I wish I had managed to fit those "stupid girl stuff" classes in. It would have made my life alot easier!
I finally learned to sew last year when I joined the SCA. I have a SCA  friend (her degree is in sculpting) who can do anything, including dragging me kicking & screaming to a sewing machine. The first thing I ever made was a doublet, shirt, & breeches via Janet Arnold, for my husband. I am working on 14th century garb for us for coronation in September. Then I have some lovely deep red material I am going to tackle to make Elizabethan garb for myself. So I'll be begging for info when it comes time to make that boned bodice.
We moved to Fredericksburg, VA about 2 years ago. Have made several forays to the Textile Museum in DC with my new SCA friends. I find I'm much more fascinated in the research than in constructing the clothing. I think I'll enjoy that a lot more as my skills improve! LOL
My husband's degree is in engineering mechanics from the AF Academy. He's working on his master's in operations management. When my daughter & I first started in the SCA, he didn't want anything to do with that stuff; never gonna wear it, no way, no how. Mr. Left Brain couldn't be bothered. Now he's the one asking to go to events. He went to Wal Mart during an event in a Roman tunic & toga. I've also noticed that a surprising number of SCA people have tech. backgrounds.
Thank you for letting me delurk. I'm always so fascinated reading you guys post, I just never seem to have anything interesting to say. I really appreciate you all!
Maryann
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Hi,
Some time ago i asked you what i should do with the 12 meters of shocking
pink dupioni i have.
I think Saragrace proposed me to wash it and then use some stuff to iron
into the fabric, to get the crispy touch again to the fabric.
What was that stuff called?
I was at the museum library yesterday taking photos of Galleries des modes
et Costumes francaise. There  were many prints with very vivid pink colours,
so i think when i wash some of it out, i could use it.
Amongst the prints is a very pretty Levit wich is combined of apple green
and pink into broad stripes.
I am tempted to try to make it, and it is a shame not to use all that
dupioni, it could be used for "Gustafs Skl"
Another colour combination is a dark yellow and purple, it looks rather good
actually, i am quite surprised of the colour combinations they used those
years. The prints are from 1778- 1784.

Thanks if you could help me with this name of the iron stuff.

Bjarne





Leif og Bjarne Drews
www.my-drewscostumes.dk

http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/


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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Thu Aug  7 11:41:19 2003
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] costume college pictures
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oh Bjarne, you would have loved the hat guy!  He brought in about 100
of his 6000 hats... what an insane collector!  I love the 70's mink hat 
-
something about how it's both a "pimp" hat and a "pilgrim" hat at the
same time is too hysterical!

.heather.

On Thursday, August 7, 2003, at 08:20 AM, Bjarne og Leif Drews wrote:

> Hi Kendra,
> Lovely pictures from the College. And all those beautifull
> hats...............
> Thanks for letting us see
>
> Bjarne
>
>
>
>
>
> Leif og Bjarne Drews
> www.my-drewscostumes.dk
>
> http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
>

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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Thu Aug  7 11:42:34 2003
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] pink dupioni
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Bjarne, I've seen a lot of very pink dresses from the 1830's
recently -- perhaps you could use it for that period?

I don't know the name of the iron stuff, though.  I hear silk will 
regain
some crispness if you put vinegar into the rinse water, though!


On Thursday, August 7, 2003, at 08:28 AM, Bjarne og Leif Drews wrote:

> Hi,
> Some time ago i asked you what i should do with the 12 meters of 
> shocking
> pink dupioni i have.
> I think Saragrace proposed me to wash it and then use some stuff to 
> iron
> into the fabric, to get the crispy touch again to the fabric.
> What was that stuff called?
> I was at the museum library yesterday taking photos of Galleries des 
> modes
> et Costumes francaise. There  were many prints with very vivid pink 
> colours,
> so i think when i wash some of it out, i could use it.
> Amongst the prints is a very pretty Levit wich is combined of apple 
> green
> and pink into broad stripes.
> I am tempted to try to make it, and it is a shame not to use all that
> dupioni, it could be used for "Gustafs Skl"
> Another colour combination is a dark yellow and purple, it looks 
> rather good
> actually, i am quite surprised of the colour combinations they used 
> those
> years. The prints are from 1778- 1784.
>
> Thanks if you could help me with this name of the iron stuff.
>
> Bjarne
>
>
>
>
>
> Leif og Bjarne Drews
> www.my-drewscostumes.dk
>
> http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
>


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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Thu Aug  7 11:45:35 2003
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To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
References: <032b01c35c8e$187f6760$336f6f6f@systemsfirm.net>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] what's your degree in?
Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 08:48:06 -0700
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I have three degrees, because my university didn't do minors, Architecture,
Interior Design, and Writing.

I really went after the Interior Design degree as I'd hoped I be able to
work with all the things I like about making costumes: colors, textures, fun
fabrics, and so forth.  Didn't happen and I'm now a Tech writer/editor.

Someone told me before I went back to school that once you got your degree,
getting a second one wasn't that hard - as you'd already fulfilled the
requirements. I'd always planned on two - architecture/interior design - as
the degree requirements were about the same, I then looked around and
decided if I stayed in an extra year I could go through the Technical
Writing program and get a writing degree as well.  Two fields I might be
able to find a job in...  I had a job in an Archtecture firm for about a
year, but there were very few jobs in the field, so I ended up in computers.
Not real surprising considering that I live in Seattle, real close to the
Borg empire.

I plan on going back and getting a Masters in something.  I'm not sure what
as I seem to be switching careers about every 7 years.

Susan in washington state



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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Thu Aug  7 12:22:44 2003
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] pink dupioni
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Bjane:

You could also use the silk for a gown or gowns from the late 1860's through
mid 1890's when the advent of aniline dyes made very vivid colors and color
combinations possible. Check prints and high fashion mags of the 1890's,
especially--I've seen some wild color combinations that actually work.

Cindy Abel
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Heather Meadows" <alice@wonderland.com>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Thursday, August 07, 2003 10:39 AM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] pink dupioni


> Bjarne, I've seen a lot of very pink dresses from the 1830's
> recently -- perhaps you could use it for that period?
>
> I don't know the name of the iron stuff, though.  I hear silk will
> regain
> some crispness if you put vinegar into the rinse water, though!
>
>
> On Thursday, August 7, 2003, at 08:28 AM, Bjarne og Leif Drews wrote:
>
> > Hi,
> > Some time ago i asked you what i should do with the 12 meters of
> > shocking
> > pink dupioni i have.
> > I think Saragrace proposed me to wash it and then use some stuff to
> > iron
> > into the fabric, to get the crispy touch again to the fabric.
> > What was that stuff called?
> > I was at the museum library yesterday taking photos of Galleries des
> > modes
> > et Costumes francaise. There  were many prints with very vivid pink
> > colours,
> > so i think when i wash some of it out, i could use it.
> > Amongst the prints is a very pretty Levit wich is combined of apple
> > green
> > and pink into broad stripes.
> > I am tempted to try to make it, and it is a shame not to use all that
> > dupioni, it could be used for "Gustafs Skl"
> > Another colour combination is a dark yellow and purple, it looks
> > rather good
> > actually, i am quite surprised of the colour combinations they used
> > those
> > years. The prints are from 1778- 1784.
> >
> > Thanks if you could help me with this name of the iron stuff.
> >
> > Bjarne
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Leif og Bjarne Drews
> > www.my-drewscostumes.dk
> >
> > http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > h-costume mailing list
> > h-costume@mail.indra.com
> > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
>

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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Thu Aug  7 12:50:18 2003
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	Thu, 07 Aug 2003 09:46:56 PDT
Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 09:46:56 -0700 (PDT)
From: Mara Riley <corbiegirl@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Where did the site go?
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
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Status: RO

It went here:

http://www.marariley.net/

The Scottish clothing stuff, specifically, is here:
http://www.marariley.net/celtic/scotland.htm

Some of the stuff (including the earlier period stuff, which sounds
like what you're looking for) is at
http://www.reconstructinghistory.com/

Cheers,
Mara

--- Joe Robertson <joedr@charter.net> wrote:
>  Where did Mara Reiley's site on Scottish clothing of the middle
> ages go
> (http://www47.pair.com/lindo)? The server administrator said that
> it was
> no longer there.
>    I was in the middle of research for clothing of the Scottish
> highland
> nobles from 16th century when it vanished. I would love to find it
> again, as my wardrobe is not yet
> complete. :o)
> Slainte,
> Joe
> ---
> Joe Robertson, Psy.D.
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
> 
> 
> 


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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Thu Aug  7 12:53:50 2003
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	Thu, 07 Aug 2003 09:50:52 PDT
Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 09:50:52 -0700 (PDT)
From: Mara Riley <corbiegirl@yahoo.com>
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
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I was listening to the Diane Rehm show this morning; she was
interviewing a doctor who said some interesting stuff regarding the
modern era, all the extra input, multitasking, etc., and ADD/ADHD.

http://www.wamu.org/dr/index.html

11:00 - Richard Restak: The New Brain (Rodale)

According to neurologist Richard Restak, the way our brains work has
changed over the past century. New medications, genetic mapping and
imaging technology have all led to a better understanding of how the
brain works. Dr. Restak explains what we've learned about the brain
and what future advances are possible.

Back to costuming... maybe that's why I usually have two or three
costumes in process at once (or two or three books, for that matter).

-- Mara



--- Dianne & Greg Stucki <goofy1@suscom.net> wrote:
> And here I pitied myself because three (possibly four) of my boys
> have
> it--at least they are spaced a ways apart!  I also have no family
> close by,
> but my sisters and I all have ADD/ADHD, and my nephew does as well,
> so I
> always have an understanding shoulder to cry on.


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In a message dated 8/7/2003 12:23:22 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
brujne@creighton.edu writes:

> You could also use the silk for a gown or gowns from the late 1860's 
> through
> mid 1890's

I have a friend who has a real 1868 or so gown [it has a slightly raised 
straight waist, and pagoda sleeves....so not a ball gown. Maybe a dinner or 
reception gown] that is the most vivd pink you've ever seen. It is completely plain 
but for some clever ribbon & button trim in off white around the horizontal 
neckline. A 1/2" silk ribbon is folded so it makes a flat point that faces 
upward and goes above the neckline. Then it is ruche on the upper edge of the 
ribbon to form a crinkled semicircle around the bottom of a small flat mother of 
pearl button that is sewn right at the neckline's edge. Then the point again. 
This repeats all the way around the neckline. I wish I could draw it.



    
    
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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Thu Aug  7 13:16:45 2003
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Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 09:55:32 -0700 (PDT)
From: Mara Riley <corbiegirl@yahoo.com>
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cc: candace@SCHWENKFELDER.COM
Subject: [h-cost] Re: brown wedding gowns
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Could the gowns in question possibly have been dyed after the
wedding, so they could continue to be worn?  That would fit in with a
very practical, no-nonsense outlook...

-- Mara

--- Margaret Baird  <beads@traknet.com> wrote:
> 
> Please reply to:   Candace Perry <candace@SCHWENKFELDER.COM>
> 
> Subject: brown wedding gowns

> I am curator of a small history museum that interprets the heritage
> of a
> small PA German Protestant group, and I have noticed an interesting
> (at
> least to me!) phenomenon regarding the wedding gowns of the group
> members in the late 19th century.  We have at least 4 rather
> similar
> BROWN dresses from the 1880s-90s.  They are typical in style for
> that
> time period, they are silk with various trims.  I am aware that the
> white wedding is a 20th century thing, more or less, but I've never
> run
> into so many similar dresses from different brides from this time
> period. Makes for a pretty dull wedding exhibit!!! I am trying to
> determine if this was another peculiarity of this group, or
> actually
> might have been fashionable for brides to wear brown in that time
> period.  Can't say I've run into it in other collections.  A bit of
> background -- the group (the Schwenkfelders) were conservative and
> modest but not "plain"  and they were members of rural communities,
> for
> the most part. Looking forward to any input, Candace Perry
> Schwenfelder
> Library & Heritage Center


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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Thu Aug  7 14:22:22 2003
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Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 11:19:06 -0700 (PDT)
From: Mara Riley <corbiegirl@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] what's your degree in?
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
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I can see that...
OTOH, my best year was the one when I managed to get courses in the
same periods of History, Religion, and Art History.  The
cross-references were wonderful!

-- Mara

> From: "Penny Ladnier" <penny@costumegallery.com>
> To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2003 7:01 PM
> Subject: Re: [h-cost] what's your degree in?
> 
> 
> > I can say this from my experience... don't take art history and
> costume
> > history in the same semester.  It can confuse the hell out of
> you.  Don't
> > take tech writing and creative writing in back to back semester. 
> It
> messes
> > your mind up.
> >

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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Thu Aug  7 14:33:15 2003
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From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" <drewscph@post12.tele.dk>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] pink dupioni
Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 20:30:03 +0200
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Hello.
Yes i am aware that i could use if for later periods.
But the problem is i dont make any further than regency and most of my
costumers is into 18th century.
I am sure that when i wash the colour, a lot of the colour will wash out,
and then it wont be so shocking anymore.
And i wanted to make this Levit dress wich i got a fashion print of. In the
fashion print, it is quite pink, and i meen really dark pink colour.
I also remember that i have seen some 18th century chinese embroidery where
there is a dark pink colour, so when it could be made in embroidery silk,
why not in fabric two...............

Bjarne





Leif og Bjarne Drews
www.my-drewscostumes.dk

http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/
----- Original Message -----
From: <AlbertCat@aol.com>
To: <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Thursday, August 07, 2003 7:09 PM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] pink dupioni


> In a message dated 8/7/2003 12:23:22 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
> brujne@creighton.edu writes:
>
> > You could also use the silk for a gown or gowns from the late 1860's
> > through
> > mid 1890's
>
> I have a friend who has a real 1868 or so gown [it has a slightly raised
> straight waist, and pagoda sleeves....so not a ball gown. Maybe a dinner
or
> reception gown] that is the most vivd pink you've ever seen. It is
completely plain
> but for some clever ribbon & button trim in off white around the
horizontal
> neckline. A 1/2" silk ribbon is folded so it makes a flat point that faces
> upward and goes above the neckline. Then it is ruche on the upper edge of
the
> ribbon to form a crinkled semicircle around the bottom of a small flat
mother of
> pearl button that is sewn right at the neckline's edge. Then the point
again.
> This repeats all the way around the neckline. I wish I could draw it.
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
>


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Subject: [h-cost] 1890s dress help?
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Hi all...I need a bit of advice as Victorian is not exactly my era of
expertise.

I'm planning on making a Mina Murray costume (from The League of
Extraordinary Gentlemen, a fabulous graphic novel to which the horrible
movie bears very little resemblance), but I don't know much detail about the
dresses of that period.  Basically I'd be looking at 1889-1890 London.  Any
suggestions on patterns or where I should look for something suitable?

I bought 6 yards (all that was left on the roll) of a gorgeous black and
burgundy striped dupioni awhile back, and realize that's probably not enough
for a gown.  The fabric store has recently gotten more of the dupioni in, so
I'm wondering how much more I should buy.

-- Maral (aka Sarcasm-hime)
http://sarcasm.fanfic.org


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From: Robin Netherton <robin@shell.nightowl.net>
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Subject: [h-cost] Sale on tapestry fabric
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I just got this promo email. I haven't had a chance to look at these
fabrics and I'm not in the market for them, but I figured I'd pass it on
in case it's of some use to someone.

--Robin
busy packing for a lecture weekend in Seattle

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 12:16:40 -0700
From: Fabric Direct <fabricdirect@sonic.sparklist.com>
To: Fabric Direct <fabricdirect@sonic.sparklist.com>
Subject: Half Price Tapestry Sale

SPECIAL SALE-ONE TIME ONLY
IMPORTED TAPESTRY AT HALF PRICE

We are now offering you the opportunity to see what many already know,
FabricDirect offers the finest in Imported Tapestry from Italy, Holland,
France and Belgium.  Sold in stores for $35.99 a yard, regularly available
from FabricDirect at $18.99 a yard, and now on Special Sale at an
incredible HALF PRICE of $9.50 a yard for selected patterns while supplies
last.

<http://www.fabricdirectoutlet.com>

The above link will take you to our home page and then all you have to do
is click on the box that says New Products and This Weeks Specials.
Here you will be given a link to our tapestry section where we invite you
to find those patterns marked SALE PRICE $9.50 a yard.

Again, please feel free to pass on this information on to all your
friends.

Thank you,
FabricDirect

P.S.
Please remember this sale is for only those tapestries marked at sale
price and will be sold while supplies last.  This sale runs through 9:00
am eastern time,  Monday August 11, 2003


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Thanks, hon. Back to work for Joe. :o)
Joe
---
Joe Robertson, Psy.D.
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From: Robin Netherton <robin@shell.nightowl.net>
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Sale on tapestry fabric
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On Thu, 7 Aug 2003, Angharad ver' Reynulf wrote:

> I'll pass on the tapestry fabric, as I'm registered
> for the lecture Robin's giving tomorrow.

Oh, God, am I giving a lecture *tomorrow*?

I know I'm doing five of them on Saturday ...

--Robin
who has been known to get dates wrong


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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Thu Aug  7 18:05:39 2003
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Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 15:02:32 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Angharad ver' Reynulf" <dragonwolfcat@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Robin's lecture WAS Sale on tapestry fabric
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
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No Robin, you're correct that it's SATURDAY for the
lecture....with trying to do the <insert language
here> upgrade to the office's computer systems I've
lost track that I really do have to go to work again
tomorrow.

*sigh*

And I have to take really, really, really good notes,
as one of the participants broke her ankle and isn't
going to make it--no weight on it for 6 weeks.

Angharad or wolfcat



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From: Katy Bishop <vintage@shore.net>
To: Herself-the-Elf <herself-the-elf@rogers.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] 1890s dress help?
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On Thu, 7 Aug 2003, Herself-the-Elf wrote:
>I'm planning on making a Mina Murray costume (from The League of
>Extraordinary Gentlemen, a fabulous graphic novel to which the horrible
>movie bears very little resemblance), but I don't know much detail
>about the dresses of that period.  Basically I'd be looking at
>1889-1890 London.  Any suggestions on patterns or where I should look
>for something suitable?

How about Past Patterns 1888-1892 day dress?  It is a good basic
starting point.

http://www.pastpatterns.com/903.html

If you can't find fashion plates from the era I could help you there.
After I get back form Newport dance week, madly trying to sew about 4
different outfits in 3 days.

Katy


Katy Bishop, Vintage Victorian
vintage@shore.net                www.VintageVictorian.com
     Custom reproduction gowns of the Victorian Era.
      Publisher of the Vintage Dress Series books.

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Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 14:33:14 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Angharad ver' Reynulf" <dragonwolfcat@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Sale on tapestry fabric
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
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I'll pass on the tapestry fabric, as I'm registered
for the lecture Robin's giving tomorrow.

I think I'll count myself as getting the grand
bargain.

Angharat

 

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Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 18:50:59 -0400
From: Gail & Scott Finke <gailscott@eos.net>
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Subject: [h-cost] Re: what's your degree in?
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I have a Bachelor of Philosophy (!) from the Western College of
Interdisciplinary Studies at Miami Univeristy. A great program -- you take a
core group of courses and make up your own "focus," or major, and also do a
senior project that includes a paper -- very much like a thesis. My focus
was medieval studies, and I narrowly missed having a minor in it because the
university stopped offering it before I attended and started it again the
year after I graduated! My project was a novel set in Viking Scandinavia. I
also complete the Honors program at the same time, combining the projects
into one.

I'm currently getting a Master of Arts in Lay Pastoral Ministry from the
Athenaeum of Ohio. Yes, all my schools have weird names. It was a Master of
Arts in Religion when I started, and I like that name better because I don't
plan to go into ministry.

I've been sewing costumes since I was a child, but really started in earnest
when I joined the SCA. I blame Mr. Rogers for my medieval mania. I still
like it when my children watch the show and anyone says, "Correct as usual,
King Friday!"

Gail Finke


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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Costume College pictures
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> >And my usual trick of making something from a blanket is not going to
work
> >here;)
>
> "Maybe you could sew together many strips of satiny blanket binding?",
said
> Kayta, totally unhelpfully.

lol! I must have edited things badly, I was meaning I was wanting to make
the Grey wool dress from Moulin Rouge... well probably a jacket and skirt
combo;)


michaela
http://costumes.glittersweet.com


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Honest, Robin. It really is on Saturday. Her "tomorrow" must be 
Saturday. (She's probably so excited she forgot that Friday was in 
the way!)

> On Thu, 7 Aug 2003, Angharad ver' Reynulf wrote:
> 
> > I'll pass on the tapestry fabric, as I'm registered
> > for the lecture Robin's giving tomorrow.
> 
> Oh, God, am I giving a lecture *tomorrow*?
> 
> I know I'm doing five of them on Saturday ...
> 
> --Robin
> who has been known to get dates wrong

Kat
<kat@redtrollforge.com>


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On Thursday 07 August 2003 01:09 pm, AlbertCat@aol.com wrote:
> In a message dated 8/7/2003 12:23:22 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
[snip]

> I have a friend who has a real 1868 or so gown [it has a slightly raised
> straight waist, and pagoda sleeves....so not a ball gown. Maybe a dinner or
> reception gown] that is the most vivd pink you've ever seen. It is
> completely plain but for some clever ribbon & button trim in off white
> around the horizontal neckline. A 1/2" silk ribbon is folded so it makes a
> flat point that faces upward and goes above the neckline. Then it is ruche
> on the upper edge of the ribbon to form a crinkled semicircle around the
> bottom of a small flat mother of pearl button that is sewn right at the
> neckline's edge. Then the point again. This repeats all the way around the
> neckline. I wish I could draw it.

I wish you could *photograph* it, and post the photo!  Don't suppose your 
friend is interested in doing that....

-- 
Cathy Raymond <cathy@thyrsus.com>

“No man is rich enough to buy back his 
past.”  Oscar Wilde

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From: Catherine Olanich Raymond <cathy@thyrsus.com>
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] 1890s dress help?
Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 20:26:10 -0400
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On Thursday 07 August 2003 03:50 pm, Herself-the-Elf wrote:
> Hi all...I need a bit of advice as Victorian is not exactly my era of
> expertise.
>
> I'm planning on making a Mina Murray costume (from The League of
> Extraordinary Gentlemen, a fabulous graphic novel to which the horrible
> movie bears very little resemblance), but I don't know much detail about
> the dresses of that period.  Basically I'd be looking at 1889-1890 London. 

I believe LEG is set in 1899 or 1900, and what I remember of Mina's costumes 
from the movie matches best with that period.


-- 
Cathy Raymond <cathy@thyrsus.com>

“No man is rich enough to buy back his 
past.”  Oscar Wilde

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----- Original Message -----
From: "michaela" <thebruce@ihug.co.nz>

<snip>

> And now I have to ask, as I do have a big old Moulin Rouge costuming
site;),
> who made the Grey dress from Moulin Rouge?:)

Is that this one?
http://demode.tweedlebop.com/CC_2003/100-0021_IMG.JPG

If so, I'm sorry, I don't know her name!  We just kept calling her "the
Kirsten Dunst" girl because she looked like her -- although as she pointed
out, Kirsten looks like HER.

> And will this page be staying
> so I can link to it? Can I link to it? If the page isn't staying can I
host
> the image at my site. If* I need her permission as well is there any way
to
> forward this on to ask her?

This page will be staying so you may safely link away, link away!

> *In NZ it's ok to take a photo of someone without their permission (I
think
> in a public arena) and you have to ask the person who took the photo for
the
> rights to use it... which is a bit on the nose if you didn't expect to
have
> a photo taken really...

I generally assume that if someone is bothered by their picture showing up
on my site, they'll let me know and I can remove it!  (Please don't bash me
over the head for this)

- Kendra
http://demode.tweedlebop.com

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Subject: [h-cost] fabric stabilizers - thanks!
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Just a quick thank you to everyone for their suggestions!

I think I'm going to try one of the dissolvable stabilizers (Solvy or
similar) and see how that works. The scroll frame at 5 Rivers is beautiful -
maybe one day, if I find I'm doing a lot of embroidery!

Allison T.

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From: "Penny Ladnier" <penny@costumegallery.com>
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: what's your degree in?
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Gail,

One of my interns has her doctors in religion and is a Rev.  She is really
into the funeral customs and mourning wear that we are putting online.... so
have you studied or interested in mourning, christening, bridal, or
confirmation/1st communion fashion customs?

Penny Ladnier
Owner, The Costume Gallery & Costume Classroom
www.costumegallery.com
www.costumeclassroom.com


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At 8:02 AM -0500 8/6/03, Sheryl Nance-Durst wrote:
>My bachelors is in mathematics.
>My masters is in library and information science.
>Weird combination, I know. :)

Bachelor of Arts (!) in Biology
Master's in Botany
Certificate in Graphic Design

The last one is the only one I've ever used at work. None of them 
seem particularly relevant to historical needlework :) except that I 
rely on my computer a lot to re-draw, re-size or otherwise modify 
artwork and patterns.

I've considered going back to school in something related to my 
research, perhaps medieval history . . . but then I remember what I'm 
like in classes that go too slowly or that I don't see any sense in 
taking . . . no thanks! <g>
-- 
_________________________________________________________
O    Chris Laning
|     <claning@igc.org>
+    Davis, California
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At 1:49 AM -0400 8/7/03, Penny Ladnier wrote:
>You might want to look into the traditions of the culture and the religion.
>Maybe there is a reason for the brown color.
>
>My second guess is that it was a dye that discolored.

Possibly logwood. I have a copy of a paper somewhere analyzing the 
thread -- originally blue -- that was used in stitching a number of 
original blue (Union) American Civil War uniforms. Over the years the 
thread has turned brown, having been dyed with logwood, a cheap but 
notoriously non-colorfast dye.

Apparently for a while some re-enactors were conscientiously 
stitching their blue uniforms with brown thread, until someone 
investigated and came up with these results. Unlike the thread, the 
uniform cloth didn't turn brown because it was dyed with indigo.
-- 
_________________________________________________________
O    Chris Laning
|     <claning@igc.org>
+    Davis, California
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Maryann.... I am so glad you de-lurked and now I know another person from
VA!!!  Welcome to Costume Heaven!!!!!  You are about an hour from me!!!!!
Are you on the Costume-DC email list???  Carol the list owner is on
h-costume.  You don't have to live in DC just in the hundred or so mile
radius.

Second, have you been to Agecroft Hall in Richmond yet?  There are so many
things to see in our area.

Penny Ladnier
Owner, The Costume Gallery & Costume Classroom
www.costumegallery.com
www.costumeclassroom.com


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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
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Greetings,

Well, I have been diversely educated...I have my FGA and FCGmA in 
gemmology, I have a college diploma in Public Relations, parts of BAs in 
English, Anthropology, Women's Studies, and History (I never finished any 
of them).  I am currently finishing my Masters in Art History (specializing 
in clothing and textiles) at the University of St. Thomas, St. Paul, 
Minnesota - I'm currently writing my thesis on English women's embroidered 
jackets from the first half of the 17th century.  In January, I'm starting 
my PhD at the University of Manchester on clothing and textile references 
in 16th century English wills and inventories...so I guess you could say my 
costume obsession has become my life. : )

Oh, and I have my certificate from packaging school - I was a supply 
technician in the Navy...not good for much except giggles. <G>

Cheers,
Danielle (back from England again)

At 08:21 AM 8/5/2003 -0700, you wrote:

>So, now that I have a two year certificate from my local community 
>college, and
>two years of prior university from the first time I went, I realized I'm 
>probably
>rather close to earning a bachelors, finally - if I found a program at 
>which I could
>apply a lot of those credits!    RIght now I'm thinking about the Theatre 
>Arts program
>at SFSU, because it's local and not too expensive.  But I was just curious 
>what
>various programs people on the list (especially those that work in costuming)
>had gotten their degrees in.
>
>I know this topic comes up about once a year, but hey, our membership 
>fluctuates ;)
>
>thanks!
>.heather.

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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Danielle Nunn-Weinberg <dannw@mn.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] what's your degree in?
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At 06:52 PM 8/5/2003 -0400, you wrote:

<snip>

>Another bonus, is to go on your judgement. If your personality matches that
>of the professors.  You will be working closely with them and if you don't
>get along with them... fiction will occur.  Remember in the beginning of
>getting those first jobs after graduation, the professors are your
>references.  It is also good to know if you need advice after graduation
>that you can call your professors.

<snip>

>Penny Ladnier
>Owner, The Costume Gallery & Costume Classroom
>www.costumegallery.com
>www.costumeclassroom.com


I'm sorry Penny, I couldn't resist.  You give great advice but what kind of 
fiction occurs? Historical? Fantasy?  <G>

Cheers,
Danielle (tongue planted firmly in cheek)

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Penny,
How does one subscribe to the Costume-DC e-list?
Deb R

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Deb,

Go to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/costumedc/ and sign up.

Penny Ladnier
Owner, The Costume Gallery & Costume Classroom
www.costumegallery.com
www.costumeclassroom.com


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Danielle (the educated in many ways),

I am one of those left and right brained people... I am also ambridexious
(sp).

I have a business side and a very creative side.  But can't do both in the
same day.  I can either work on the bookkeeping, html coding, and research
OR work on creative side with drawing, painting, etc.  I can also get burned
out on one (tech or creative) and have to switch to the other for a day or
so.

I can't do creative and tech writing in the same week... blows my thinking
process.

Penny Ladnier
Owner, The Costume Gallery & Costume Classroom
www.costumegallery.com
www.costumeclassroom.com


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I'd look at Truly Victorian's patterns.  Among other things, they can 
custom draft patterns for your measurements, which makes life easier if
you're not used to fitting those snug bodices.
http://trulyvictorian.netfirms.com/
TV462, the Tail Bodice just seems like a Mina kind of dress to me.
Photo at:
http://trulyvictorian.netfirms.com/photo7.html

Lee M.Thompson-Herbert        lee@retro.com	      KoX 1995, SP4
Head Muso, White Rats Morris, Faultline Morris
Member, Knights of Xenu (1995).  Chaos Monger and Jill of All Trades.
"A head-on collision between Morticia Adams and Martha Stewart"
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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Dawn Jacobson <dme_maud@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] costume college pictures
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At 08:37 AM 8/7/2003 -0700, you wrote:
>oh Bjarne, you would have loved the hat guy!  He brought in about 100
>of his 6000 hats... what an insane collector!  I love the 70's mink hat -
>something about how it's both a "pimp" hat and a "pilgrim" hat at the
>same time is too hysterical!
>
>.heather.

...and Edward Maeder's copy of an 18th C. banyan in the historic Deerfield 
collection. I don't know how it has happened, but Braunschweig & Fil is 
producing reproduction 18th C. chintzes from Deerfield and Edward's banyan 
is made from the fabric they reproduced from the banyan.

Dawn
(who found linen chintz in the Garment District on Monday)

Dawn Jacobson
Vallejo, CA, USA

Clothes are the costumes we wear every day. 
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Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2003 08:09:17 +0100 (BST)
From: =?iso-8859-1?q?N=20Kipar?= <nicolas_fouquet@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Costume College pictures
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
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> I generally assume that if someone is bothered by their picture showing up
> on my site, they'll let me know and I can remove it!  (Please don't bash me
> over the head for this)
> 
> - Kendra

Kendra, I fully agree, and here in the UK it seems that PC-gone-mad and the
culture of let's-sue-everyone is finally starting to be stopped. There have
been some high court judges who made some very interesting decisions and
remarks.

There are bazillions of sites with piccies from UK multi=period events and no
one asks anyone who is on the pix if they are allowed to post them, on the
contrary, people are happy that they are able to grab pix of themselves - if
they are told they are allowed to do so - and use them on their own site if so
wished. It is such a pain trying to get good photos of oneself in costume! :-)

So, if anyone wants to bash Kendra, go on and bash me too - and you know what
effect that has on my thick skull: none! ;-)

Nicole

=====
One of the Three Baroque Love Goddess    
http://www.kipar.org/society/events/lichfield03/saturday-lurve-goddesses.jpg

Email: nicole@kipar.org
URL: http://www.kipar.org

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From: Dawn Jacobson <dme_maud@pacbell.net>
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Subject: [h-cost] Does anybody know of a good Edwardian corset pattern?
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Status: RO

Hmmm, the problems that can be caused by a hat. ;-)

OK, I really didn't need an absolutely darling Edwardian hat--cream straw 
with a brown grosgrain ribbon and brown and yellow flowers--but I couldn't 
resist it because I know of the perfect suit to build for the hat.

And I really didn't need to buy all that fabulous wool from B. Black & 
Sons--an exquisite winter white tropical weight wool gabardine from Hong 
Kong--but it was just to beautiful to pass up and goes with the hat.

So now I need an Edwardian corset. Does anybody know of a good Edwardian 
corset pattern?

TIA!

Dawn

Dawn Jacobson
Vallejo, CA, USA

Clothes are the costumes we wear every day. 


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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Fri Aug  8 03:43:11 2003
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Status: RO

Whoops, you're right.  The original comic is actually set in 1898...

Well, SOME of her costumes from the movie were period.  Sort of.  I don't
think the black leather-and-lace catsuit counts as period...lol

-- Sarcasm-hime
 

-----Original Message-----
From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com] On
Behalf Of Catherine Olanich Raymond
Sent: Thursday, August 07, 2003 8:26 PM
To: Historical Costume
Subject: Re: [h-cost] 1890s dress help?

On Thursday 07 August 2003 03:50 pm, Herself-the-Elf wrote:
> Hi all...I need a bit of advice as Victorian is not exactly my era of 
> expertise.
>
> I'm planning on making a Mina Murray costume (from The League of 
> Extraordinary Gentlemen, a fabulous graphic novel to which the 
> horrible movie bears very little resemblance), but I don't know much 
> detail about the dresses of that period.  Basically I'd be looking at
1889-1890 London.

I believe LEG is set in 1899 or 1900, and what I remember of Mina's costumes
from the movie matches best with that period.


-- 
Cathy Raymond <cathy@thyrsus.com>

"No man is rich enough to buy back his 
past."  Oscar Wilde

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Subject: [h-cost] Brown dress question
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I can't recall the year of the brown museum dresses, but I found this in an
1871 Peterson's Magazine tonight:

"A very ugly shade of brown is coming into fashion, something like the most
unbecoming Bismark brown...."

Penny Ladnier
Owner, The Costume Gallery & Costume Classroom
www.costumegallery.com
www.costumeclassroom.com


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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Carolyn Kayta Barrows <kayta@frys.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Does anybody know of a good Edwardian corset
  pattern?
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>Hmmm, the problems that can be caused by a hat. ;-)
>
>OK, I really didn't need an absolutely darling Edwardian hat--cream straw 
>with a brown grosgrain ribbon and brown and yellow flowers--but I couldn't 
>resist it because I know of the perfect suit to build for the hat.
>
>And I really didn't need to buy all that fabulous wool from B. Black & 
>Sons--an exquisite winter white tropical weight wool gabardine from Hong 
>Kong--but it was just to beautiful to pass up and goes with the hat.
>
>So now I need an Edwardian corset. Does anybody know of a good Edwardian 
>corset pattern?

I got my s-bend one out of Norah Waugh's 'Corsets and Crinolines'.  I can 
show you the corset I made from it, but I no longer have the full-size 
pattern.  But I think you need a later period corset than mine (I've seen 
the hat).


        CarolynKayta Barrows
dollmaker, fibre artist, textillian
          www.FunStuft.com

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From: Catherine Olanich Raymond <cathy@thyrsus.com>
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] 1890s dress help?
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On Friday 08 August 2003 03:39 am, Herself-the-Elf wrote:
> Whoops, you're right.  The original comic is actually set in 1898...
>
> Well, SOME of her costumes from the movie were period.  Sort of.  I don't
> think the black leather-and-lace catsuit counts as period...lol

Yes.  Well.  I wasn't thinking of those.  :-)



-- 
Cathy Raymond <cathy@thyrsus.com>

“No man is rich enough to buy back his 
past.”  Oscar Wilde

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Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2003 08:35:26 -0400 (EDT)
From: Katy Bishop <vintage@shore.net>
To: Herself-the-Elf <herself-the-elf@rogers.com>
Subject: RE: [h-cost] 1890s dress help?
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If it's late 1890's you want Past Patterns 1897 side closing bodice
pattern is great, very easy to construct.

http://www.pastpatterns.com/207.html

I particuarly like the "spectator" jacket too

http://www.pastpatterns.com/113.html

Katy

On Fri, 8 Aug 2003, Herself-the-Elf wrote:

>Whoops, you're right.  The original comic is actually set in 1898...
>
>Well, SOME of her costumes from the movie were period.  Sort of.  I don't
>think the black leather-and-lace catsuit counts as period...lol
>
>-- Sarcasm-hime
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com] On
>Behalf Of Catherine Olanich Raymond
>Sent: Thursday, August 07, 2003 8:26 PM
>To: Historical Costume
>Subject: Re: [h-cost] 1890s dress help?
>
>On Thursday 07 August 2003 03:50 pm, Herself-the-Elf wrote:
>> Hi all...I need a bit of advice as Victorian is not exactly my era of
>> expertise.
>>
>> I'm planning on making a Mina Murray costume (from The League of
>> Extraordinary Gentlemen, a fabulous graphic novel to which the
>> horrible movie bears very little resemblance), but I don't know much
>> detail about the dresses of that period.  Basically I'd be looking at
>1889-1890 London.
>
>I believe LEG is set in 1899 or 1900, and what I remember of Mina's costumes
>from the movie matches best with that period.
>
>
>--
>Cathy Raymond <cathy@thyrsus.com>
>
>"No man is rich enough to buy back his
>past."  Oscar Wilde
>
>_______________________________________________
>h-costume mailing list
>h-costume@mail.indra.com
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>
>
>_______________________________________________
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>

Katy Bishop, Vintage Victorian
vintage@shore.net                www.VintageVictorian.com
     Custom reproduction gowns of the Victorian Era.
      Publisher of the Vintage Dress Series books.

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Catching up on a few days' posts...

Claire Clarke <Lady_Angharad@bigpond.com> writes:

>I have a degree in theoretical physics.
>...On the other hand I can highly recommend physics.

Curious... at one time this was an area in which I was interested. What 
occupations, other than in academia, use degrees in theoretical physics?


Penny writes:

>People ask me the college selection/major/job question often via my website.
>What you major in depends on what you want to do with the degree.  I suggest
>that you not only check out the college but the instructors of what you want
>to major in.

Also check with people in the field in which you want to work, and the 
positions which you would ultimately like to have, and their bosses. Ask 
them about their education and experience, their career paths to get to 
those positions, and -- in the cases of the bosses -- what qualifications 
they look for in someone applying for that sort of job. You might be 
completely surprised by what's needed and required. Also ask the people 
whose jobs you'd eventually like, what their daily tasks are like -- the 
mundane drudgery ones as well as the interesting glamourous ones.

>You might also want to ask what organizations the
>professors are in and if they are an active members... meaning do they
>really do things with their organization or do they just sign up to say they
>are a member.  You can always call the organization and ask how active the
>professor is.

Interesting. The society keeps track of this? How? (I'm a paper member of 
too many of these because of my soon-to-be-former job.)


Saragrace writes:

>I don't question any requirement for the same reasons...okay, I really don't
>want to have to take differential equations again...but if I have to I 
>will....

DiffEq. Owwwwww. That was one motherly *painful* course. And that was only 
"intro to", not any of the later courses that some of the other majors 
required. Unfortunately, being weak in calculus affected my understanding 
of freshman physics, and thereby the whole downhill run in which I'm almost 
surprised I got my degree at all!

For the record, it's an S. B. (Bachelor's) in Nuclear Engineering. Which 
has served me professionally only in giving me technical background to do 
technical indexing (the job in this soon-to-be-ex-office for which I was 
originally hired) of technical papers and articles relevant to the 
aero/astro industry. (Technically a library science job.)


Deb R. writes:

>I have a BA in Human Ecology (the new name for Home Economics) with a fashion
>concentration from Montclair State University.

Montclair State? Are you still in NJ? I weekend in North Plainfield...




Brenda
webwarren@earthlink.net


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Cozit / Liz <cozit@comcast.net> writes:

>... some of you out there have heard of the term "freaking the mundanes"...

I've usually heard it contracted to "freaking the 'danes" -- to which 
someone not in the know might think we were trying to give Bjarne and Leif 
fits! I think this misunderstanding may have been used as a source of humor 
in the SF novel "Fallen Angels" (it's been a while since I read it)...

>I have friends who have been known to mess with the minds of some of the 
>die-hard fans.  *g*

I've run into (thankfully, a very few) individual fans who seem to have a 
problem separating reality from fiction. As an active member of STARFLEET: 
The International STAR TREK <R> Fan Association, my "hall costume" is 
generally one or another Starfleet uniform, with insignia and name tag 
appropriate to my rank and position in the Starfleet chapter to which I 
belong (USS AVENGER NCC-1860, out of North Brunswick, NJ). I've had a 
handful of incidences where, despite a name tag saying "USS AVENGER" and a 
uniform from STAR TREK: The Next Generation, a twentysomething or 
thirtysomething woman would approach me and *seriously* (not as a joke or 
as seeing if *I'm* taking this thing too seriously) ask me to beam her up 
to the ENTERPRISE so she could meet and/or bed Mr. Spock.


Cathy Raymond writes:

>I've known several fen who wear business suits to cons--on purpose, 
>because it
>felt right to them, or because they had been somewhere they needed to wear a
>suit to and hadn't felt like changing clothes.

Most of the people who wear suits to cons, and who haven't just come from 
work/are headed directly to work, are people who either (1) want to imitate 
Men In Black, or the bad-police-type-guys in The Matrix, or something like 
that or (2) want to imitate hotel security or (3) want people to think 
they're hotel security so that they can boss people around.

>At cons, I usually wear either one of my historic costumes, or the sort of
>things I usually wear to our (business casual) office, namely, a sweater or
>top under a jacket, and chinos or khaki pants.

If I go "'dane" to a con, it'll be either an appropriate t-shirt (SF/F or 
computer industry show swag) and jeans/shorts or something rennie. I've 
pretty much not been in the con scene for a few years, though -- time and 
money constraints, and most of the cons have gotten both very expensive 
(sawbuck-and-eagle you to death) and very dull.

>At the cons I've attended most, fans wear anything from T-shirts (nearly
>always with an...interesting picture or slogan) to peasant skirts and
>blouses, to historic costume, to alien or futuristic costume, to ....next to
>nothing, in some cases.

Yup. Sounds familiar...

>And the jewelry....some of it was lovely, some tacky, some garish, and
>some ghastly, but most of it was exotic, or at least unique....

Cons, faires, and street fairs are my usual sources for mundane/modern 
jewelry. I like "unique" pieces, directly from the designer/artisan. And I 
like the prices :)



Brenda
webwarren@earthlink.net


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From: prairielark <prairielark@herspace.com>
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] pink dupioni NOT!!!
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Please bear in mind if you are thinking of using ANY dupioni fabric that the process by which dupioni is made was not even thought about until the late 19th century.  You will NEVER (and I mean never) see dupioni in an original civil war era gown; it just didn't exist yet.  This is one of my pet peeves, sorry for the emphasis.

The color, however suitable, should not be used as an excuse for using an incorrect fabric.  The slubs in dupioni result from using threads from two different types of silkworms and I forget now the specifics.   Apparently however before this the two types were NEVER mixed, and please remember that slubs were NOT a desired characteristic of fabric before the last quarter of the 19th century.  Our ancestors would have seen it as flawed, cheap fabric.  I learned this in an excellent textiles class taught by Sally Queen (www.sallyqueenassociates.com) 

Thanks for your patience with my little rant.  For more information on suitable fabrics for 19th century gowns, please see Lynn Z. Bassett's excellent book, "Textiles for Clothing of the Early Republic, 1800 - 1850."  For this and more fabric history titles, go here:

http://www.costumesocietyamerica.com/Bookstore/bookstorepages/textiles.htm

Phoebe

the prairie lark




--- "Cynthia Abel" <brujne@creighton.edu> wrote:
>Bjane:
>
>You could also use the silk for a gown or gowns from the late 1860's through
>mid 1890's when the advent of aniline dyes made very vivid colors and color
>combinations possible. Check prints and high fashion mags of the 1890's,
>especially--I've seen some wild color combinations that actually work.
>
>Cindy Abel
>----- Original Message ----- 
>From: "Heather Meadows" <alice@wonderland.com>
>To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
>Sent: Thursday, August 07, 2003 10:39 AM
>Subject: Re: [h-cost] pink dupioni
>
>
>> Bjarne, I've seen a lot of very pink dresses from the 1830's
>> recently -- perhaps you could use it for that period?
>>
>> I don't know the name of the iron stuff, though.  I hear silk will
>> regain
>> some crispness if you put vinegar into the rinse water, though!
>>
>>
>> On Thursday, August 7, 2003, at 08:28 AM, Bjarne og Leif Drews wrote:
>>
>> > Hi,
>> > Some time ago i asked you what i should do with the 12 meters of
>> > shocking
>> > pink dupioni i have.
>> > I think Saragrace proposed me to wash it and then use some stuff to
>> > iron
>> > into the fabric, to get the crispy touch again to the fabric.
>> > What was that stuff called?
>> > I was at the museum library yesterday taking photos of Galleries des
>> > modes
>> > et Costumes francaise. There  were many prints with very vivid pink
>> > colours,
>> > so i think when i wash some of it out, i could use it.
>> > Amongst the prints is a very pretty Levité wich is combined of apple
>> > green
>> > and pink into broad stripes.
>> > I am tempted to try to make it, and it is a shame not to use all that
>> > dupioni, it could be used for "Gustafs Skål"
>> > Another colour combination is a dark yellow and purple, it looks
>> > rather good
>> > actually, i am quite surprised of the colour combinations they used
>> > those
>> > years. The prints are from 1778- 1784.
>> >
>> > Thanks if you could help me with this name of the iron stuff.
>> >
>> > Bjarne
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Leif og Bjarne Drews
>> > www.my-drewscostumes.dk
>> >
>> > http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/
>> >
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > h-costume mailing list
>> > h-costume@mail.indra.com
>> > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
>> >
>>
>>
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From: Katy Bishop <vintage@shore.net>
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Subject: [h-cost] museum closing
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I am forwarding this from my Costume Society of America online
Newsletter.  Such a shame.

This from Pat Warner who attended the Costume Society of
Great Britain symposium in Bath in June: Anthea Jarvis,
Curator of The Gallery of Costume, Platt Hall in Manchester,
revealed at the meeting that the museum has been closed,
apparently because of financial contingency.  It will still
be available by appointment for researchers who want to use
its wonderful resources -- it is one of the finest
collections of costume in Great Britain -- but it will no
longer be open for general visitation. See
http://www.manchestergalleries.org/html/costume/goc_info.html.

CSA members who would like to support the museum and its
work may write to:
Mrs. Virginia Tandy, Director
Manchester City Galleries
Manchester Art Gallery
Mosley Street
Manchester M2 3JL UK

Katy Bishop, Vintage Victorian
vintage@shore.net                www.VintageVictorian.com
     Custom reproduction gowns of the Victorian Era.
      Publisher of the Vintage Dress Series books.

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Subject: [h-cost] 1967/1867 pattern
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I just had to share this one -- an 1867 pattern from 1967!

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/ 
eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3236700766&category=4161

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From: "Kim Baird" <kbaird@cableone.net>
To: "'Historical Costume'" <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: RE: [h-cost] 1890s mens ties
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2003 11:17:16 -0500
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You can find patterns and knot info in the Laughing Moon pattern #107. I
use this a lot for Victorian men.

http://www.lafnmoon.com/victorian_shirt.html

Kim

-----Original Message-----
From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com]
On Behalf Of moefen@hotmail.com
Sent: Friday, August 08, 2003 10:49 AM
To: h-costume@indra.com
Subject: [h-cost] 1890s mens ties

Hi all,

Continuing the theme of the 1890s, I am currently designing a production
of 
Mrs. Warren's Profession, by Shaw.  We have set the costumes as 1895 /
1896, 
but I have a question regarding men's ties.

The photographs and illustrations I have seen often have men wearing a
very 
wide tie that has a very large triangular knot.  The Montgomery Ward and

Sears catalogues from that era refer to Windsor and Four in Hand ties.
The 
question: are we still using the same knots under the same names?  Or
were 
they tied differently because of the large size of the tie, or do the
knots 
just look different because they are so large?

Thanks for any help,

M

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Subject: Re: [h-cost] 1967/1867 pattern
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> 
> I just had to share this one -- an 1867 pattern from 1967!
> 
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/ 
> eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3236700766&category=4161
> 
How funny!  I own that one!

Heidi

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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Fandom, and costumes
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Heather Rose Jones wrote:

> Amusingly, I often wear nice/formal "mundane" clothes to cons because 
> I get so few mundane changes to dress up nicely, and a con is a place 
> where I enjoy doing something a little special.  On the other hand, as 
> I think I've mentioned before on this list', my "mundane business 
> suits' have a tendency to be historically inspired to some degree. But 
> wearing them at cons isn't something I'm doing as a "costume" function 
> but as a "dress up" function.  Some people wear suits because it's 
> what they like dressing up in.
>
I once wore mundane business clothes to a convention, for the same 
reason Heather states. The funny thing was, nobody recognized me! And I 
was pretty active in Midwestern fandom at the time, helping run the darn 
things.

liz young


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Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2003 09:37:43 -0700
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>I just had to share this one -- an 1867 pattern from 1967!
>
>http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/ eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3236700766&category=4161

Hey - at least it's recognizable as the period it purports to be.


        CarolynKayta Barrows
dollmaker, fibre artist, textillian
          www.FunStuft.com

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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Fandom, and costumes
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>>I have friends who have been known to mess with the minds of some of the 
>>die-hard fans.  *g*
>
>I've run into (thankfully, a very few) individual fans who seem to have a 
>problem separating reality from fiction. As an active member of STARFLEET: 
>The International STAR TREK <R> Fan Association, my "hall costume" is 
>generally one or another Starfleet uniform, with insignia and name tag 
>appropriate to my rank and position in the Starfleet chapter to which I 
>belong (USS AVENGER NCC-1860, out of North Brunswick, NJ). I've had a 
>handful of incidences where, despite a name tag saying "USS AVENGER" and a 
>uniform from STAR TREK: The Next Generation, a twentysomething or 
>thirtysomething woman would approach me and *seriously* (not as a joke or 
>as seeing if *I'm* taking this thing too seriously) ask me to beam her up 
>to the ENTERPRISE so she could meet and/or bed Mr. Spock.

I think these folks are mistakenly under the impression that they're being 
funny.  I've met them too, and I don't think they think they're 
serious.  Yawn, them again.

>>I've known several fen who wear business suits to cons--on purpose, 
>>because it
>>felt right to them, or because they had been somewhere they needed to wear a
>>suit to and hadn't felt like changing clothes.
>
>Most of the people who wear suits to cons, and who haven't just come from 
>work/are headed directly to work, are people who either (1) want to 
>imitate Men In Black, or the bad-police-type-guys in The Matrix, or 
>something like that or (2) want to imitate hotel security or (3) want 
>people to think they're hotel security so that they can boss people around.

Or want to be seen as being in costume, which suits are to most fen in this 
area (San Francisco Bay Area).

>>At cons, I usually wear either one of my historic costumes, or the sort of
>>things I usually wear to our (business casual) office, namely, a sweater or
>>top under a jacket, and chinos or khaki pants.
>
>If I go "'dane" to a con, it'll be either an appropriate t-shirt (SF/F or 
>computer industry show swag) and jeans/shorts or something rennie. I've 
>pretty much not been in the con scene for a few years, though -- time and 
>money constraints, and most of the cons have gotten both very expensive 
>(sawbuck-and-eagle you to death) and very dull.

I guess I avoid that expensive sort of Con.  But at the biggest local Cons 
historical wear seems to be accepted, and even has a division in the 
masquerade, for some unknown reason.  I guess they think historicals are 
fantasy compared to today's clothes.


        CarolynKayta Barrows
dollmaker, fibre artist, textillian
          www.FunStuft.com

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>>Amusingly, I often wear nice/formal "mundane" clothes to cons because I 
>>get so few mundane changes to dress up nicely, and a con is a place where 
>>I enjoy doing something a little special.  On the other hand, as I think 
>>I've mentioned before on this list', my "mundane business suits' have a 
>>tendency to be historically inspired to some degree. But wearing them at 
>>cons isn't something I'm doing as a "costume" function but as a "dress 
>>up" function.  Some people wear suits because it's what they like 
>>dressing up in.
>I once wore mundane business clothes to a convention, for the same reason 
>Heather states. The funny thing was, nobody recognized me! And I was 
>pretty active in Midwestern fandom at the time, helping run the darn things.

This happened to me once.  I, uncharacteristically, wore a short skirt, 
nylons, heels, and the rest of girl clothes, put my hair up, and did modern 
makeup.  My friends walked right past me.  They notice me in jeans and 
slouchy t-shirts, in f/sf costumes, or, of course, in historicals.

        CarolynKayta Barrows
dollmaker, fibre artist, textillian
          www.FunStuft.com

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Subject: Re: [h-cost] pink dupioni NOT!!!
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Actually, I may be bursting a bubble here, but while "dupioni" as such didn't 
exist, dupioni-like fabric DID.  It was used in the Renaissance, even.  The 
form of "dupioni-like" fabric that existed back then was created mostly by 
accident when two silkworms (not two types of) were put too close together while 
being raised, and formed one cocoon together.  
The slubs in dupioni, according to the articles I've read, do NOT result from 
two types of silkworms, they result from silkworms being too close together.  
This makes the threads get tangled when being reeled, and forms a "slub".  I 
think the 'two types' of silkworms you're thinking of might be mulberry-fed 
and oak-fed; the latter results in Tussah.  

Evidence of my own little rant can be seen in Luca Mola's "The Silk Industry 
in Renaissance Venice".  Also, Jen Thompson wrote an article that summarized 
some of the book, in the effort to point out that using dupioni is perfectly 
period- perhaps not for, say, Queen Elizabeth I or or a Venetian Doge, but 
certainly for anyone who didn't have an unlimited spending account.  Gee, that 
sounds a lot like us modern non-royalty types <g>
Anyway, article link: <A HREF="http://homepage.mac.com/festive_attyre/research/silk.html">
http://homepage.mac.com/festive_attyre/research/silk.html</A>

Christine



n a message dated 8/8/2003 9:01:49 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
prairielark@herspace.com writes:

> Please bear in mind if you are thinking of using ANY dupioni fabric that 
> the process by which dupioni is made was not even thought about until the late 
> 19th century.  You will NEVER (and I mean never) see dupioni in an original 
> civil war era gown; it just didn't exist yet.  This is one of my pet peeves, 
> sorry for the emphasis.
> 
> The color, however suitable, should not be used as an excuse for using an 
> incorrect fabric.  The slubs in dupioni result from using threads from two 
> different types of silkworms and I forget now the specifics.   Apparently however 
> before this the two types were NEVER mixed, and please remember that slubs 
> were NOT a desired characteristic of fabric before the last quarter of the 
> 19th century.  Our ancestors would have seen it as flawed, cheap fabric.  I 
> learned this in an excellent textiles class taught by Sally Queen 
> (www.sallyqueenassociates.com) 
> 
> Thanks for your patience with my little rant.  For more information on 
> suitable fabrics for 19th century gowns, please see Lynn Z. Bassett's excellent 
> book, "Textiles for Clothing of the Early Republic, 1800 - 1850."  For this and 
> more fabric history titles, go here:
> 



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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Fandom, and costumes
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        Brenda, does that ever rings bells and revive memories.  I
haven't been to a con for several years myself for the same reasons you
gave.   I usually went with some other members of my "ship" and we were
in uniform.  However, we were the older members and wore the original
Star Trek movie uniforms (not the horrible gray things, but the later
ones).  Once was told by Nichele Nicholes that my uniform looked better
than the ones they wore.  

        And several times people asked us if we were in a band.  Somehow,
I never thought of those uniforms as band uniforms - certainly not like
the ones I wore in school bands.  Mostly though people just wanted
pictures taken with us.  Weird!

Lalah
Never give up, Never surrender
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] pink dupioni NOT!!!
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Rest assured, Bjarne's choice is quite educated.


On Friday, August 8, 2003, at 05:55 AM, prairielark wrote:

> Please bear in mind if you are thinking of using ANY dupioni fabric  
> that the process by which dupioni is made was not even thought about  
> until the late 19th century.  You will NEVER (and I mean never) see  
> dupioni in an original civil war era gown; it just didn't exist yet.   
> This is one of my pet peeves, sorry for the emphasis.
>
> The color, however suitable, should not be used as an excuse for using  
> an incorrect fabric.  The slubs in dupioni result from using threads  
> from two different types of silkworms and I forget now the specifics.   
>  Apparently however before this the two types were NEVER mixed, and  
> please remember that slubs were NOT a desired characteristic of fabric  
> before the last quarter of the 19th century.  Our ancestors would have  
> seen it as flawed, cheap fabric.  I learned this in an excellent  
> textiles class taught by Sally Queen (www.sallyqueenassociates.com)
>
> Thanks for your patience with my little rant.  For more information on  
> suitable fabrics for 19th century gowns, please see Lynn Z. Bassett's  
> excellent book, "Textiles for Clothing of the Early Republic, 1800 -  
> 1850."  For this and more fabric history titles, go here:
>
> http://www.costumesocietyamerica.com/Bookstore/bookstorepages/ 
> textiles.htm
>
> Phoebe
>
> the prairie lark
>
>
>
>
> --- "Cynthia Abel" <brujne@creighton.edu> wrote:
>> Bjane:
>>
>> You could also use the silk for a gown or gowns from the late 1860's  
>> through
>> mid 1890's when the advent of aniline dyes made very vivid colors and  
>> color
>> combinations possible. Check prints and high fashion mags of the  
>> 1890's,
>> especially--I've seen some wild color combinations that actually work.
>>
>> Cindy Abel
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Heather Meadows" <alice@wonderland.com>
>> To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
>> Sent: Thursday, August 07, 2003 10:39 AM
>> Subject: Re: [h-cost] pink dupioni
>>
>>
>>> Bjarne, I've seen a lot of very pink dresses from the 1830's
>>> recently -- perhaps you could use it for that period?
>>>
>>> I don't know the name of the iron stuff, though.  I hear silk will
>>> regain
>>> some crispness if you put vinegar into the rinse water, though!
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thursday, August 7, 2003, at 08:28 AM, Bjarne og Leif Drews wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi,
>>>> Some time ago i asked you what i should do with the 12 meters of
>>>> shocking
>>>> pink dupioni i have.
>>>> I think Saragrace proposed me to wash it and then use some stuff to
>>>> iron
>>>> into the fabric, to get the crispy touch again to the fabric.
>>>> What was that stuff called?
>>>> I was at the museum library yesterday taking photos of Galleries des
>>>> modes
>>>> et Costumes francaise. There  were many prints with very vivid pink
>>>> colours,
>>>> so i think when i wash some of it out, i could use it.
>>>> Amongst the prints is a very pretty Levit wich is combined of apple
>>>> green
>>>> and pink into broad stripes.
>>>> I am tempted to try to make it, and it is a shame not to use all  
>>>> that
>>>> dupioni, it could be used for "Gustafs Skl"
>>>> Another colour combination is a dark yellow and purple, it looks
>>>> rather good
>>>> actually, i am quite surprised of the colour combinations they used
>>>> those
>>>> years. The prints are from 1778- 1784.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks if you could help me with this name of the iron stuff.
>>>>
>>>> Bjarne
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Leif og Bjarne Drews
>>>> www.my-drewscostumes.dk
>>>>
>>>> http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> h-costume mailing list
>>>> h-costume@mail.indra.com
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>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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>
> _____________________________________________________________
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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Heather Rose Jones <hrjones@socrates.berkeley.edu>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Fandom, and costumes
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At 8:53 AM -0400 8/8/03, Brenda Bell wrote:
>Cathy Raymond writes:
>
>>I've known several fen who wear business suits to cons--on purpose, 
>>because it
>>felt right to them, or because they had been somewhere they needed to wear a
>>suit to and hadn't felt like changing clothes.
>
>Most of the people who wear suits to cons, and who haven't just come 
>from work/are headed directly to work, are people who either (1) 
>want to imitate Men In Black, or the bad-police-type-guys in The 
>Matrix, or something like that or (2) want to imitate hotel security 
>or (3) want people to think they're hotel security so that they can 
>boss people around.

Amusingly, I often wear nice/formal "mundane" clothes to cons because 
I get so few mundane changes to dress up nicely, and a con is a place 
where I enjoy doing something a little special.  On the other hand, 
as I think I've mentioned before on this list', my "mundane business 
suits' have a tendency to be historically inspired to some degree. 
But wearing them at cons isn't something I'm doing as a "costume" 
function but as a "dress up" function.  Some people wear suits 
because it's what they like dressing up in.

Heather
-- 
*****
Heather Rose Jones
hrjones@socrates.berkeley.edu
*****
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Penny Ladnier wrote:

>I can't do creative and tech writing in the same week... blows my thinking
>process.
>
>  
>
Yeah, me too. Mixing tasks is difficult! If I've been working on a 
challanging sewing project, don't even ask me to talk! I just stare and 
make fish-faces. Sewing and other creative things seem to interfere w/ 
the speech centers. Writing, house-cleaning, programming do it to. But 
reading does not.

liz young


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Subject: [h-cost] 1890s mens ties
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Hi all,

Continuing the theme of the 1890s, I am currently designing a production of 
Mrs. Warren's Profession, by Shaw.  We have set the costumes as 1895 / 1896, 
but I have a question regarding men's ties.

The photographs and illustrations I have seen often have men wearing a very 
wide tie that has a very large triangular knot.  The Montgomery Ward and 
Sears catalogues from that era refer to Windsor and Four in Hand ties.  The 
question: are we still using the same knots under the same names?  Or were 
they tied differently because of the large size of the tie, or do the knots 
just look different because they are so large?

Thanks for any help,

M

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Subject: Re: [h-cost] pink dupioni NOT!!!
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All this is fascinating in the extreme. And I mean that.

But since I'm not doing living history but making costumes, I'll use what I 
think will enhance the design. You wouldn't believe some of the stuff I've used 
and I know is not period, but if it fits into the look I want..... And 
dupioni is AVAILABLE....and affordable unlike 100% silk brocade in a dress weight. I 
have seen some dupioni and shantung plaids that scream to be made up into 
crinoline gowns.

Living history buffs will [and should] be horrified but...c'mon, give us 
costume people a break. At least it's not double knit! [which I have used, BTW, 
for early 19th century pants  :-O]
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: shocking pink
Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2003 14:29:18 -0400
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Besides the 1930,s going backwards, I am aware of only the 1890's as a
previous period where shocking pink, as we know it, was in vogue.
Kathleen
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gail & Scott Finke" <gailscott@eos.net>
To: <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Friday, June 06, 2003 12:21 PM
Subject: [h-cost] Re: shocking pink


>
> I thought shocking pink was a historical color, good for many periods. I
> don't know where I heard that, though. Maybe it's one of those costume
> legends.
>
> I think Bjarne needs to take a tour of the USA! Get on the plane, take
> medicine to make you fall asleep, and then you can take the coast to coast
> tour staying free with all the list members!
>
> Gail Finke
>
> _______________________________________________
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From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" <drewscph@post12.tele.dk>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
References: <18e.1e2c23d5.2c650e87@aol.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] pink dupioni NOT!!!
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2003 20:47:11 +0200
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Dear Christine,
Thanks for your input and it was very interresting reading that article.
I am truly aware that silk dupioni was not used for clothing. Even if it
excisted, it was only used for furnishing and interior decorations, not
clothes.
But considered what i have seen people use in Gustafs Skl, dupioni -
rayon - and other fibres wich are man made, i would not think it would
damage anything if i washed my shocking pink dupioni and sewed a nice little
ensemble out of it.  was thinking that they used some light cottons for
dresses, for summer wear and if i washed the dupioni, i know it will get
thinner and it will drape different from unwashed dupioni.
Consider it an experiment, and then i dont have a bad contience doing it, it
is better to use it for something, than having it in a drawer for nothing.
Thanks for your inputs and comments, thanks for the help.........

Bjarne





Leif og Bjarne Drews
www.my-drewscostumes.dk

http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/
----- Original Message -----
From: <IceGirlNIN@aol.com>
To: <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Friday, August 08, 2003 4:32 PM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] pink dupioni NOT!!!


> Actually, I may be bursting a bubble here, but while "dupioni" as such
didn't
> exist, dupioni-like fabric DID.  It was used in the Renaissance, even.
The
> form of "dupioni-like" fabric that existed back then was created mostly by
> accident when two silkworms (not two types of) were put too close together
while
> being raised, and formed one cocoon together.
> The slubs in dupioni, according to the articles I've read, do NOT result
from
> two types of silkworms, they result from silkworms being too close
together.
> This makes the threads get tangled when being reeled, and forms a "slub".
I
> think the 'two types' of silkworms you're thinking of might be
mulberry-fed
> and oak-fed; the latter results in Tussah.
>
> Evidence of my own little rant can be seen in Luca Mola's "The Silk
Industry
> in Renaissance Venice".  Also, Jen Thompson wrote an article that
summarized
> some of the book, in the effort to point out that using dupioni is
perfectly
> period- perhaps not for, say, Queen Elizabeth I or or a Venetian Doge, but
> certainly for anyone who didn't have an unlimited spending account.  Gee,
that
> sounds a lot like us modern non-royalty types <g>
> Anyway, article link: <A
HREF="http://homepage.mac.com/festive_attyre/research/silk.html">
> http://homepage.mac.com/festive_attyre/research/silk.html</A>
>
> Christine
>
>
>
> n a message dated 8/8/2003 9:01:49 AM Eastern Standard Time,
> prairielark@herspace.com writes:
>
> > Please bear in mind if you are thinking of using ANY dupioni fabric that
> > the process by which dupioni is made was not even thought about until
the late
> > 19th century.  You will NEVER (and I mean never) see dupioni in an
original
> > civil war era gown; it just didn't exist yet.  This is one of my pet
peeves,
> > sorry for the emphasis.
> >
> > The color, however suitable, should not be used as an excuse for using
an
> > incorrect fabric.  The slubs in dupioni result from using threads from
two
> > different types of silkworms and I forget now the specifics.
Apparently however
> > before this the two types were NEVER mixed, and please remember that
slubs
> > were NOT a desired characteristic of fabric before the last quarter of
the
> > 19th century.  Our ancestors would have seen it as flawed, cheap fabric.
I
> > learned this in an excellent textiles class taught by Sally Queen
> > (www.sallyqueenassociates.com)
> >
> > Thanks for your patience with my little rant.  For more information on
> > suitable fabrics for 19th century gowns, please see Lynn Z. Bassett's
excellent
> > book, "Textiles for Clothing of the Early Republic, 1800 - 1850."  For
this and
> > more fabric history titles, go here:
> >
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume


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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Fri Aug  8 16:19:26 2003
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Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2003 13:16:18 -0700 (PDT)
From: Mara Riley <corbiegirl@yahoo.com>
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Subject: [h-cost] OT: "doubles", was Costume College pictures
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I started watching "Ground Force" on BBC America because my sister
told me that Charlie Dimmock, the female host/gardener, was almost my
double.  Pretty true -- from the rear at least!  Our faces are a bit
different, but not too much so -- we could certainly be sisters or
cousins.

OCC: she's famous in Britain for going on camera wearing jeans,
tshirt -- and no bra.  I applied to have a garden makeover when the
show came to America for this season's filming... but didn't win.  I
did tell them we were nearly doubles.  Maybe if I'd promised to go
braless too, if I won...?

-- Mara


> If so, I'm sorry, I don't know her name!  We just kept calling her
> "the
> Kirsten Dunst" girl because she looked like her -- although as she
> pointed
> out, Kirsten looks like HER.


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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Fri Aug  8 16:22:03 2003
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From: Theresa Eacker <theresa@misc.com>
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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] 1967/1867 pattern
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Well, shucks, the waist line needs to be a little higher but that 
doesn't look half bad for the period!!!!

Thanks for the chuckle,

Theresa Eacker

Heather Meadows wrote:
> 
> 
> I just had to share this one -- an 1867 pattern from 1967!
> 
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/ eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3236700766&category=4161
> 
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Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2003 13:19:53 -0700
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>, <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Margo Anderson <margo@margospatterns.com>
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Subject: [h-cost] Anyone in Toronto? 
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If anyone on the list is in the Toronto area, could you email me privately
at margo@margospatterns.com?  I have an idea I'd like to discuss.

Margo

"One Tough Costumer"

www.margospatterns.com
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Subject: [h-cost] Belly Dance Stuff (Probably Off Topic)
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Greetings All!

A friend of mine and I are thinking of starting Belly Dance again, and we 
were hoping someone out there would have some info for us.

Skirt:
The skirts seem really easy, therefore the pattern seems trivial.  That said, 
we did a little research and found <A HREF="http://www.costumegoddess.com/tierskirt.htm">
http://www.costumegoddess.com/tierskirt.htm</A> which gives a basis instructions to get the 10 yd skirt.  Does anyone have a 
shorter, easier formula?

Yarn for Belts
Does anyone have a source for the heavy wool yarn for the tassels on a camel 
belt.  Yes, I know it's not period but I like the tassels anyway.  :)

Please contact me offline with the info, so we don't waste bandwidth.  
Thanks!

Kit

If you walk a mile in someone else's shoes, do you get to keep them? - 
Kenneth Cole
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        I finally got my magazine today.  Darned new post lady folded in
half (totally unnecessary as I have a large rural type mailbox).  It is a
beautiful magazine and the pictures must have cost a fortune. 

        My only complaint (and it really is just a comment, not a
complaint) is that there seems to be more costume content than actual
vintage fashion.  I realize that there is a limited number of actual
vintage garb available, but I would rather see more real clothing and
less theatrical costumes.  

Lalah
Never give up, Never surrender
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Belly Dance Stuff (Probably Off Topic)
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        Off hand, I would say that this is probably more on topic than an
unending list of resumes.

Lalah
Never give up, Never surrender
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From: "Saragrace knauf" <saragrace@earthlink.net>
To: "'Historical Costume'" <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: RE: [[h-cost] Vintage Fashion Magazine]
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2003 13:44:54 -0700
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I hear what you are saying...but gosh I really like to see the
reproduction stuff....especially for the era's where there isn't that
much extant stuff.....later stuff, I agree whole-heartedly!

-----Original Message-----
From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com]
On Behalf Of catpurson@juno.com
Sent: Friday, August 08, 2003 1:31 PM
To: h-costume@indra.com
Subject: Re: [[h-cost] Vintage Fashion Magazine]


        I finally got my magazine today.  Darned new post lady folded in
half (totally unnecessary as I have a large rural type mailbox).  It is
a beautiful magazine and the pictures must have cost a fortune. 

        My only complaint (and it really is just a comment, not a
complaint) is that there seems to be more costume content than actual
vintage fashion.  I realize that there is a limited number of actual
vintage garb available, but I would rather see more real clothing and
less theatrical costumes.  

Lalah
Never give up, Never surrender
_______________________________________________
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h-costume@mail.indra.com
http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Fri Aug  8 16:59:38 2003
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From: Chris Laning <claning@igc.org>
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Subject: [h-cost] Historical doubles (WAS: OT: "doubles")
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Anyone else on this list have  historical "double"?

I do . . . a Victorian duchess. I also know several other people who do. Someone I used to know from Renaissance Faire, for instance, is a dead ringer for the 3/4 portrait of (the Elizabethan) Sir Henry Unton that I've seen in several books. (In his case, I think it's partly the beard.)

Anyone else?

____________________________________________________________
0  Chris Laning
|  <claning@igc.org>
+  Davis, California
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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Fri Aug  8 17:38:17 2003
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Greetings, all!
   I feel very strange being the only non-costumer in the place, but I'm
glad to be here just the same. I do share an acute interest in
historical dress, especially Scottish and Celtic in general. I am
assembling a wardrobe as we speak (or trying, at least).
   I am very much involved in my own heritage and attend all the Celtic
events and the big ren-faires in town. I like historical clothing to be
as accurate as possible, so I suppose me joining this group is sort of
like going to a therapists' convention to find a therapist. :o)
   I look forward to all your wonderful input.
Slainte!
Joe
p.s. Anyone know of a good middle ages clothier in Texas, perhaps near
Fort Worth or Dallas?
---
Joe Robertson, Psy.D.
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Constructive criticism needed
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Saragrace,

The bit about the sleeve being squared off rang a bell with me.  I had 
been looking recently in the wonderful book my mother gave me on 
drafting and adapting patterns, which I use particularly for sleeves 
("Creating fashion" by Betty Foster, 1983).  It has a wing sleeve with 
deep armhole which comes down to a right angle and straight line across 
the bottom of the armhole.  I've never seen such a seam on an actual 
garment, all the batwing sleeves I remember were raglan, or cut as a 
single piece with the bodice.  But it might give you a clue to doing a 
tighter version of the same thing.

I will attempt to scan and post the diagrams at the weekend, if I can 
work the technology.

Jean



Saragrace T. Knauf <saragrace@earthlink.net> wrote
>Okay I appologize for the cross post but I could really used some
>constructive criticism.  I have posted two web pages which I have been using
>to convey information to my Flemish class. These pages are really just
>discussion notes so they are not finished products. The images have been
>loaded to preserve space, but the pages will still be slow to load.
>
>The link below is where I could really use some constructive criticism and
>suggestions.
>http://www.saragrace.net/6B_FlemishClass_MUs.html
>Unfortunatly I can't get one of the pictures to load which would 'justify' a
>horizontal seam in the front.  I will continue to work on that.
>
>I have done several mockups for the Breughel style outer gown and would like
>your thoughts on what else could be done to make them look more like the
>artwork.  I know that people will have different views on what is 'really'
>there in the artwork and philosophies about how to use artwork, feel free to
>tell me what you interpret differently and what you can see that I don't
>with respect to the construction of the gown.  Any suggestions on how I can
>get the upper arm to look more like the pictures (or anything else) would be
>appreciated.
>
>
>This link is just for if you want to see more artwork and some class
>discussion.
>
>http://www.saragrace.net/6A_FlemishClass.html
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>h-costume mailing list
>h-costume@mail.indra.com
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-- 
Jean Waddie
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Wow!  What a team!  I am jealous!!  I have gotten my hubby to fit me...
He is really good at it for someone who knows nothing about it.

Sg

-----Original Message-----
From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com]
On Behalf Of Pierre & Sandy Pettinger
Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2003 11:00 PM
To: h-costume@indra.com
Subject: [h-cost] Degrees and getting into costuming


Well, I'll try to get both ideas into one post.
I have a BS in Chemistry also (Hi, Amanda!).  My DH has a BS in
Mechanical 
Engineering, plus a whole bunch of courses in computer science.  I'm a 
computer programmer, he works for a retail store (for the past several 
years as stockroom manager, has also done most other jobs there).  Go
figure. I hate sewing too, but have to do it to be able to wear the
stuff I 
want.  He likes to sew and does all his costumes.  We actually have a 
pretty good division of labor - he does the patterns (big surprise, with

the eng. degree, also I can't draw a straight line with a ruler), we
both 
cut and do machine work, he does all the hand work (I hate it and he's
MUCH 
faster at it than I am), but I pick the colors and do the fine tuning on

fitting.  He's the one with the fancy embroidery machine, so we can turn

out all kinds of neato stuff.
We do mostly fantasy and science fiction stuff, and go to conventions
and 
all that.  We have plans to do several historical projects, but there 
always seems to be a more important F/SF project that needs to be done 
first.  However, as there is really nothing new under the sun, many of
our 
fantasy designs have historical bases or elements.  That's why we're on 
this list, have gotten so much great info here that's helped with a 
particular problem at one time or another.

Pierre and Sandy

"Those Who Fail To Learn History
Are Doomed To Repeat It;
Those Who Fail To Learn History Correctly--
Why They Are Simply Doomed."

Achemdro'hm
"The Illusion of Historical Fact"
-- C.Y. 4971

Andromeda


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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Fri Aug  8 19:14:08 2003
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Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2003 16:10:55 -0700
Subject: Re: [h-cost] 1967/1867 pattern
From: Agnes Gawne <gawne@mac.com>
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That must have been for the Canadian Centennial celebration... I have two
booklets of information made for docents in Ontario at the time of the
celebration - tells them how to modify things to get the 19th C look.  They
are pretty funny, my aunt saved them for me when a friend of hers decided to
clear out all her old pattern stuff.  The best thing in them is a set of
directions for doing cartridge pleats - the clearest directions I have ever
seen. 

Agnes


on 8/8/03 13:18, Theresa Eacker at theresa@misc.com wrote:

> Well, shucks, the waist line needs to be a little higher but that
> doesn't look half bad for the period!!!!
> 
> Thanks for the chuckle,
> 
> Theresa Eacker
> 
> Heather Meadows wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> I just had to share this one -- an 1867 pattern from 1967!
>> 
>> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/ eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3236700766&category=4161
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
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> 
> 
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From: "Saragrace knauf" <saragrace@earthlink.net>
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Subject: RE: [h-cost] Constructive criticism needed
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2003 16:49:28 -0700
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Jean, I would be very indebted to you.  Thanks very much!

Sg

-----Original Message-----
From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com]
On Behalf Of Jean Waddie
Sent: Friday, August 08, 2003 2:34 PM
To: Historical Costume
Cc: Flemish_Garb@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Constructive criticism needed


Saragrace,

The bit about the sleeve being squared off rang a bell with me.  I had 
been looking recently in the wonderful book my mother gave me on 
drafting and adapting patterns, which I use particularly for sleeves 
("Creating fashion" by Betty Foster, 1983).  It has a wing sleeve with 
deep armhole which comes down to a right angle and straight line across 
the bottom of the armhole.  I've never seen such a seam on an actual 
garment, all the batwing sleeves I remember were raglan, or cut as a 
single piece with the bodice.  But it might give you a clue to doing a 
tighter version of the same thing.

I will attempt to scan and post the diagrams at the weekend, if I can 
work the technology.

Jean



Saragrace T. Knauf <saragrace@earthlink.net> wrote
>Okay I appologize for the cross post but I could really used some 
>constructive criticism.  I have posted two web pages which I have been 
>using to convey information to my Flemish class. These pages are really

>just discussion notes so they are not finished products. The images 
>have been loaded to preserve space, but the pages will still be slow to

>load.
>
>The link below is where I could really use some constructive criticism 
>and suggestions. http://www.saragrace.net/6B_FlemishClass_MUs.html
>Unfortunatly I can't get one of the pictures to load which would
'justify' a
>horizontal seam in the front.  I will continue to work on that.
>
>I have done several mockups for the Breughel style outer gown and would

>like your thoughts on what else could be done to make them look more 
>like the artwork.  I know that people will have different views on what

>is 'really' there in the artwork and philosophies about how to use 
>artwork, feel free to tell me what you interpret differently and what 
>you can see that I don't with respect to the construction of the gown.

>Any suggestions on how I can get the upper arm to look more like the 
>pictures (or anything else) would be appreciated.
>
>
>This link is just for if you want to see more artwork and some class 
>discussion.
>
>http://www.saragrace.net/6A_FlemishClass.html
>
>
>_______________________________________________
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-- 
Jean Waddie
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Yeah, sorta....Queen Victoria, god help me.
Took a stage makeup class many years ago, and when I "aged" my self, I
looked remarkably like Her Maj., jowls and all.
--sue

Chris Laning wrote:
> 
> Anyone else on this list have  historical "double"?
> 
> I do . . . a Victorian duchess. I also know several other people who do. Someone I used to know from Renaissance Faire, for instance, is a dead ringer for the 3/4 portrait of (the Elizabethan) Sir Henry Unton that I've seen in several books. (In his case, I think it's partly the beard.)
> 
> Anyone else?
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From: Elizabeth Young <lizyoung@fenris.net>
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Subject: [h-cost] belt hardware question
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Anyone know where I can get good quality repro belt hardware (mid-late 
16th century) as seen in this portrait of the tailor?
http://gallery.euroweb.hu/art/m/moroni/taylor.jpg

thanks
liz young


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On Friday 08 August 2003 07:59 pm, Chris Laning wrote:
> Anyone else on this list have  historical "double"?
>
> I do . . . a Victorian duchess. I also know several other people who do.
> Someone I used to know from Renaissance Faire, for instance, is a dead
> ringer for the 3/4 portrait of (the Elizabethan) Sir Henry Unton that I've
> seen in several books. (In his case, I think it's partly the beard.)
]>
> Anyone else?

Another third-party one.  I had an English teacher in high school who was a 
dead ringer for Charles I of England as he's depicted in the famous Van Dyke 
portrait--he even had the right kind of beard.


-- 
Cathy Raymond <cathy@thyrsus.com>

“No man is rich enough to buy back his 
past.”  Oscar Wilde

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Heather Meadows (on this list) is a dead ringer (imo) for many of Queen
Victoria's daughters, especially Princess Alice -- who she played at the SF
Dickens Fair a few year ago!

- Kendra

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At 07:32 PM 8/7/03 -0700, you wrote:
>Bachelor of Arts (!) in Biology
>Master's in Botany
>Certificate in Graphic Design

Chris, What a great combination! Flora and fauna and pretty stuff all together!
<grin>

Sheryl N-D

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> The bit about the sleeve being squared off rang a bell with me.  I had
> been looking recently in the wonderful book my mother gave me on
> drafting and adapting patterns, which I use particularly for sleeves
> ("Creating fashion" by Betty Foster, 1983).  It has a wing sleeve with
> deep armhole which comes down to a right angle and straight line across
> the bottom of the armhole.  I've never seen such a seam on an actual
> garment, all the batwing sleeves I remember were raglan, or cut as a
> single piece with the bodice.  But it might give you a clue to doing a
> tighter version of the same thing.


Mary Housten Who wrote the book republished by Dover as Medieval Costume
of the 14th and 15thC has a diagram that shows an arch shaped arm hole that
a tapered tube shaped sleeve fits into... I do have it scanned so I'll
upload it right now... she even *gasp* gives a reference for the image she
includes a line drawing of.

Ok.. it has disappeared.. a number of images have gone walkabouts actually..
I'm going to have to do a concerted image hunt... or they may have got lost
in a move from folder to folder.

Basically the under arm seam was left open by a small amount at the sleeve
head end and they opened up into the bottom of the arch.

I'll get another copy of this up soon, it's really interesting and looks
very much like the seams you get on several Brugel women.

michaela
http://costumes.glittersweet.com



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> Anyone else on this list have  historical "double"?

Oh yes, Dame Maggie Teyte. I saw some photos of her in a book and had a
double take. Very very scarey really. Oh even more scarey she died the year
I was born.

Of course this is from some little images so I have no idea how much we
would like like each other in real life;) And the images online don't really
show it either;) When I scan the images I have they change somewhat, as do
photos of myself. Different res, etc... it's annoying really.

michaela
http://costumes.glittersweet.com


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From: Catherine Olanich Raymond <cathy@thyrsus.com>
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On Friday 08 August 2003 08:53 am, Brenda Bell wrote:
> Cozit / Liz <cozit@comcast.net> writes:
> >... some of you out there have heard of the term "freaking the
> > mundanes"...
>
> I've usually heard it contracted to "freaking the 'danes" -- to which
> someone not in the know might think we were trying to give Bjarne and Leif
> fits! I think this misunderstanding may have been used as a source of humor
> in the SF novel "Fallen Angels" (it's been a while since I read it)...

I've never heard that contraction used by the fen I know, and it probably 
would have mystified me if I had.  :-)

[snip]

> Cathy Raymond writes:
> >I've known several fen who wear business suits to cons--on purpose,
> >because it
> >felt right to them, or because they had been somewhere they needed to wear
> > a suit to and hadn't felt like changing clothes.
>
> Most of the people who wear suits to cons, and who haven't just come from
> work/are headed directly to work, are people who either (1) want to imitate
> Men In Black, or the bad-police-type-guys in The Matrix, or something like
> that or (2) want to imitate hotel security or (3) want people to think
> they're hotel security so that they can boss people around.

This may be true in fandom as a whole.  I have never been to an SF convention 
in Europe that wasn't a WorldCon, and most of the SF conventions I go to in 
the US are East Coast ones.  

However, this isn't true by and large of the fen I've seen wear suits at cons.  
Instead, the fen I've seen who wear suits either: 1) have come straight from 
an office job; 2) were the hotel liaison, and were wearing a suit to boost 
their credibility with hotel management; 3) were older fen who just plain 
like wearing suits and have, over years, made their particular style of suit 
part of their fannish image, or; 4) like Heather, decided that they just 
wanted to dress up a bit.  

The only time I've seen fen in my area wear suits in imitation of MIB or 
Matrix characters were when they were playing such characters as part of a 
live-action role playing game that was an activity taking place at the 
con....



> >At cons, I usually wear either one of my historic costumes, or the sort of
> >things I usually wear to our (business casual) office, namely, a sweater
> > or top under a jacket, and chinos or khaki pants.
>
> If I go "'dane" to a con, it'll be either an appropriate t-shirt (SF/F or
> computer industry show swag) and jeans/shorts or something rennie. I've
> pretty much not been in the con scene for a few years, though -- time and
> money constraints, and most of the cons have gotten both very expensive
> (sawbuck-and-eagle you to death) and very dull.

I've found that to be true myself, but I go because a number of friends with 
whom I don't get to spend time with otherwise still do.

However, I've recently found a convention (in the Ann Arbor, MI area) that is 
not excessively expensive or dull.  If you're interested, email me privately 
for details.


-- 
Cathy Raymond <cathy@thyrsus.com>

“No man is rich enough to buy back his 
past.”  Oscar Wilde

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From: Catherine Olanich Raymond <cathy@thyrsus.com>
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Fandom, and costumes
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2003 22:15:09 -0400
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On Friday 08 August 2003 12:53 pm, Carolyn Kayta Barrows wrote:
[snip]
> This happened to me once.  I, uncharacteristically, wore a short skirt,
> nylons, heels, and the rest of girl clothes, put my hair up, and did modern
> makeup.  My friends walked right past me.  They notice me in jeans and
> slouchy t-shirts, in f/sf costumes, or, of course, in historicals.

It happened to me too, though in a slightly funnier way.

I was in a live action role playing game at an SF convention in Massachusetts 
called "Revenge of the Mad Scientists!" which was loosely based on all those 
cheesy movies of the 60s about bad science and unscrupulous scientists.  

My character had a special power that allowed her to enhance her scientific 
talents if she got it on with male characters (all simulated in game without 
physical contact, of course!), so I decided to costume for this to the hilt.  
(movie style, not necessarily real 60s style).  I bought a plaid miniskirt, a 
Wonderbra, a tight, pink, faux angora sweater, fishnet stockings, and 
stilletto heels.  When I put on the sweater, I carefully tucked the top into 
the edge of the bra, lowering the neckline dramatically and baring my 
new-found cleavage.  I put on my contact lenses, combed my hair into a kind 
of page boy style and put a llittle bow in my hair on each side of my face.  

At one point, I took a break from the game and went to a room party, where a 
friend who had known me for years walked right by me without recognizing 
me--until I said "Hi, Beth!"  The double take she did when she finally did 
recognize me was priceless....

On the other hand, I once ran into one of my professors from college while I 
was at a different con, playing in a LARP based on Julius Caesar.  I was 
wearing my contact lenses, had my hair braided and pinned up in a manner I 
never use in mundane clothing, and dressed in the best approximation I could 
manage at the time of the garb of a republican Roman matron--and despite not 
having seen me in more than 10 years, he recognized me instantly.  

Go figure....

-- 
Cathy Raymond <cathy@thyrsus.com>

“No man is rich enough to buy back his 
past.”  Oscar Wilde

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Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2003 19:23:50 -0700 (PDT)
From: Lee Thompson-Herbert <lee@retro.com>
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Historical doubles (WAS: OT: "doubles")
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>Anyone else on this list have  historical "double"?

Unfortunately, I seem to be aquiring Queen Victoria's physique.  My husband's
grandmother told me at the wedding that I looked like a "young and pretty
Victoria."  Now that I'm all crippled up, I seem to be moving to the portly
phase.  Except for the fact that I'm a redhead, I could be her double in
some of these photos.  And in black and white photography, it actually 
comes out pretty close.

I could've posed for these ones:
http://www.btinternet.com/~sbishop100/jubilee.jpg
http://www.btinternet.com/~sbishop100/vic14.jpg
http://www.btinternet.com/~sbishop100/vic42.jpg
http://www.btinternet.com/~sbishop100/vic21.jpg
http://www.btinternet.com/~sbishop100/vic30.jpg

Sigh.  

Lee M.Thompson-Herbert        lee@retro.com	      KoX 1995, SP4
Head Muso, White Rats Morris, Faultline Morris
Member, Knights of Xenu (1995).  Chaos Monger and Jill of All Trades.
"A head-on collision between Morticia Adams and Martha Stewart"
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Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2003 21:30:10 -0500
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Danielle Nunn-Weinberg <dannw@mn.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] what's your degree in?
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Penny,

I realize it was an honest mistake - (you should see my spelling and 
grammar after I have been reading 16th century wills for too long...)  But 
I couldn't resist.  I was feeling whimsical.  : )  Frankly, I'm amazed that 
you can do so much, so well!

Cheers,
Danielle

At 02:25 AM 8/8/2003 -0400, you wrote:
>Danielle (the educated in many ways),
>
>I am one of those left and right brained people... I am also ambridexious
>(sp).
>
>I have a business side and a very creative side.  But can't do both in the
>same day.  I can either work on the bookkeeping, html coding, and research
>OR work on creative side with drawing, painting, etc.  I can also get burned
>out on one (tech or creative) and have to switch to the other for a day or
>so.
>
>I can't do creative and tech writing in the same week... blows my thinking
>process.
>
>Penny Ladnier
>Owner, The Costume Gallery & Costume Classroom
>www.costumegallery.com
>www.costumeclassroom.com

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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Danielle Nunn-Weinberg <dannw@mn.rr.com>
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I've never found one for myself but a friend of mine (if you shaved/plucked 
the front of her head) is the spitting imaged of Rogier van der Weydan's 
Portrait of a Lady from 1464:

http://www.kfki.hu/%7Earthp/art/w/weyden/rogier/16portra/10woman.jpg

I will have to find a picture of her in Burgundian, online...

Cheers,
Danielle

At 04:59 PM 8/8/2003 -0700, you wrote:
>Anyone else on this list have  historical "double"?
>
>I do . . . a Victorian duchess. I also know several other people who do. 
>Someone I used to know from Renaissance Faire, for instance, is a dead 
>ringer for the 3/4 portrait of (the Elizabethan) Sir Henry Unton that I've 
>seen in several books. (In his case, I think it's partly the beard.)
>
>Anyone else?
>____________________________________________________________
>0  Chris Laning
>|  <claning@igc.org>
>+  Davis, California
>____________________________________________________________

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>> Anyone else on this list have  historical "double"?

I don't have a strict "double", so to speak, but I and the entire 
maternal side of my family could have blended right in with almost all 
of Holbein's female sitters.

We're all petite brunettes.  The "super models" of 16th century England.

Sarah
http://www.elizabethanlady.com

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Danielle wrote:
> I realize it was an honest mistake - (you should see my spelling and 
> grammar after I have been reading 16th century wills for too long...)  But 
> I couldn't resist.  I was feeling whimsical.  : )  Frankly, I'm amazed that 
> you can do so much, so well!

Oh, don't get me started on what 16th century texts do to your spelling!
For me it's mostly cookbooks, and I can't spell "vinegar" or "cinnamon"
without stopping to think really carefully.

Tell me, Danielle, where do you get your wills and inventories?  I've
found a number of books which have collections of W&I, usually from a
certain district and put together by local history groups.  Some
inventories of more famous people are published alone, perhaps with
other household accounts and/or commentary (I have such books for the
Hardwick Hall inventories of 1601, and Robert Dudley's household
accounts, not to mention the royal wardrobe inventories).  Is this what
you use, too, or are you going back to the sources themselves?

K.

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From: "Saragrace knauf" <saragrace@earthlink.net>
To: "'Historical Costume'" <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: RE: [h-cost] Constructive criticism needed
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2003 21:19:43 -0700
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Oh ah, I might have that book...I will check..but please do send the
image if you are able to!!

-----Original Message-----
From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com]
On Behalf Of michaela
Sent: Friday, August 08, 2003 6:41 PM
To: Historical Costume
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Constructive criticism needed


> The bit about the sleeve being squared off rang a bell with me.  I had

> been looking recently in the wonderful book my mother gave me on 
> drafting and adapting patterns, which I use particularly for sleeves 
> ("Creating fashion" by Betty Foster, 1983).  It has a wing sleeve with

> deep armhole which comes down to a right angle and straight line 
> across the bottom of the armhole.  I've never seen such a seam on an 
> actual garment, all the batwing sleeves I remember were raglan, or cut

> as a single piece with the bodice.  But it might give you a clue to 
> doing a tighter version of the same thing.


Mary Housten Who wrote the book republished by Dover as Medieval Costume
of the 14th and 15thC has a diagram that shows an arch shaped arm hole
that a tapered tube shaped sleeve fits into... I do have it scanned so
I'll upload it right now... she even *gasp* gives a reference for the
image she includes a line drawing of.

Ok.. it has disappeared.. a number of images have gone walkabouts
actually.. I'm going to have to do a concerted image hunt... or they may
have got lost in a move from folder to folder.

Basically the under arm seam was left open by a small amount at the
sleeve head end and they opened up into the bottom of the arch.

I'll get another copy of this up soon, it's really interesting and looks
very much like the seams you get on several Brugel women.

michaela
http://costumes.glittersweet.com



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Chris Laning wrote:

>Anyone else on this list have  historical "double"?
>
>I do . . . a Victorian duchess. I also know several other people who do. Someone I used to know from Renaissance Faire, for instance, is a dead ringer for the 3/4 portrait of (the Elizabethan) Sir Henry Unton that I've seen in several books. (In his case, I think it's partly the beard.)
>
>Anyone else?
>
Not anymore, although I'm willing to be corrected if one of my friends 
finds an image that works.

When I was younger, I looked like Anna Meyer in Holbein's Darmstadt 
Madonna, except I'm blonde:

http://www.abcgallery.com/H/holbein/holbein13.html

Same (lack of) figure, same profile.

Now I've got a figure more like Mary Todd Lincoln, but the face doesn't 
match (although Genie - I see a resemblance to you; her face is a little 
rounder, but it's close).

Karen

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Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2003 23:37:50 -0500
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Danielle Nunn-Weinberg <dannw@mn.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] what's your degree in?
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At 11:47 PM 8/8/2003 -0400, you wrote:
>Danielle wrote:
> > I realize it was an honest mistake - (you should see my spelling and
> > grammar after I have been reading 16th century wills for too long...)  But
> > I couldn't resist.  I was feeling whimsical.  : )  Frankly, I'm amazed 
> that
> > you can do so much, so well!
>
>Oh, don't get me started on what 16th century texts do to your spelling!
>For me it's mostly cookbooks, and I can't spell "vinegar" or "cinnamon"
>without stopping to think really carefully.

LOL!  I couldn't spell those before I started reading non-standardized 
spelling...

>Tell me, Danielle, where do you get your wills and inventories?  I've
>found a number of books which have collections of W&I, usually from a
>certain district and put together by local history groups.  Some
>inventories of more famous people are published alone, perhaps with
>other household accounts and/or commentary (I have such books for the
>Hardwick Hall inventories of 1601, and Robert Dudley's household
>accounts, not to mention the royal wardrobe inventories).  Is this what
>you use, too, or are you going back to the sources themselves?
>
>K.

To date I have been working with the published collections but for my PhD 
I'm going to play with the original documents and probably give myself 
permanent eye-strain reading handwriting that is worse than mine (if that 
is possible...).  : )

Cheers,
Danielle

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Date: Sat, 09 Aug 2003 01:47:09 -0400
From: Ron Carnegie <r.carnegie@verizon.net>
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] belt hardware question
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lizyoung> Anyone know where I can get good quality repro belt hardware (mid-late 
lizyoung> 16th century) as seen in this portrait of the tailor?


     This is very much like the set originally created by Tim Finkas. 
They are now available through Historic Enterprises.  They do have a
webpage, though I do not know the URL off hand.  Use your favorite
search engine.  They are also probably not filling orders currently as
they are at Pennsic.

Cheers,
-- 
Ron Carnegie <r.carnegie@verizon.net>
	*************************************************
	"The poetry of history lies in the quasi-miraculous fact that
	 once on this earth, on this familiar spot of ground walked
	 other men and women as actual as we are today, thinking
	 their own thoughts, swayed by their own passions but now
	 all gone, vanishing after another, gone as utterly as we 
	 ourselves shall be gone like ghosts at cockcrow."
				G.M. Trevelyan
	*************************************************

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Danielle Nunn-Weinberg <dannw@mn.rr.com> writes:

>I've never found one for myself but a friend of mine (if you 
>shaved/plucked the front of her head) is the spitting imaged of Rogier van 
>der Weydan's Portrait of a Lady from 1464:
>http://www.kfki.hu/%7Earthp/art/w/weyden/rogier/16portra/10woman.jpg

Dang, van der Weyden faces must be popular! I have a friend who, about 10 
years ago, looked exactly like this one: 
http://www.kfki.hu/~arthp/art/w/weyden/rogier/16portra/05lady.jpg


Brenda
webwarren@earthlink.net


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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Dawn Jacobson <dme_maud@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Re: [h-cost] Historical doubles (WAS: OT: "doubles") 
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At 02:09 AM 8/9/2003 -0400, you wrote:
>Danielle Nunn-Weinberg <dannw@mn.rr.com> writes:
>
>>I've never found one for myself but a friend of mine (if you 
>>shaved/plucked the front of her head) is the spitting imaged of Rogier 
>>van der Weydan's Portrait of a Lady from 1464:
>>http://www.kfki.hu/%7Earthp/art/w/weyden/rogier/16portra/10woman.jpg

I also seem to be just me. OTOH, my husband is a doppelganger (I think 
that's the proper term) of Czar Nicholas III; it's really a little eerie 
when he wears late Victorian or Edwardian dress. We also have a friend that 
is a doppelganger of George V.

Dawn

Dawn Jacobson
Vallejo, CA, USA

Clothes are the costumes we wear every day. 
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Date: Sat, 09 Aug 2003 01:23:13 -0700
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Carolyn Kayta Barrows <kayta@frys.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Fandom, and costumes
In-Reply-To: <200308082215.09521.cathy@thyrsus.com>
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>On the other hand, I once ran into one of my professors from college while I
>was at a different con, playing in a LARP based on Julius Caesar.  I was
>wearing my contact lenses, had my hair braided and pinned up in a manner I
>never use in mundane clothing, and dressed in the best approximation I could
>manage at the time of the garb of a republican Roman matron--and despite not
>having seen me in more than 10 years, he recognized me instantly.
>
>Go figure....

And I was at MedievalCon II, having not thought I was going, and I showed 
up as a dragon.  I got mistaken for the Questing Beast, got chased down a 
hall, and appeared in a room doorway - and got recognized (I was wearing a 
full dragon head at the time) by someone who otherwise knew me.


        CarolynKayta Barrows
dollmaker, fibre artist, textillian
          www.FunStuft.com

              //// \\\
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] 1967/1867 pattern
Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2003 09:31:40 -0500
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A friend of mine made this up in the last year or two.  I think there may be
a picture on the SLCG website.

Genie
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Heather Meadows" <alice@wonderland.com>
To: <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Friday, August 08, 2003 11:15 AM
Subject: [h-cost] 1967/1867 pattern


>
>
> I just had to share this one -- an 1867 pattern from 1967!
>
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/
> eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3236700766&category=4161
>
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Historical doubles (WAS: OT: "doubles")
Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2003 10:17:08 -0500
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Eeeek!
    me, look like Mary Todd Lincoln.  Now that's scary.  Was her ancestry
German?  I'll have to bring a family history of my dad's side with photo's
to one of the meetings sometime.  The older pic's of family groups are
interesting.

Genie
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Karen Heim" <axejudge@accessus.net>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Friday, August 08, 2003 11:31 PM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Historical doubles (WAS: OT: "doubles")


>
>
> Chris Laning wrote:
>
> >Anyone else on this list have  historical "double"?
> >
> >I do . . . a Victorian duchess. I also know several other people who do.
Someone I used to know from Renaissance Faire, for instance, is a dead
ringer for the 3/4 portrait of (the Elizabethan) Sir Henry Unton that I've
seen in several books. (In his case, I think it's partly the beard.)
> >
> >Anyone else?
> >
> Not anymore, although I'm willing to be corrected if one of my friends
> finds an image that works.
>
> When I was younger, I looked like Anna Meyer in Holbein's Darmstadt
> Madonna, except I'm blonde:
>
> http://www.abcgallery.com/H/holbein/holbein13.html
>
> Same (lack of) figure, same profile.
>
> Now I've got a figure more like Mary Todd Lincoln, but the face doesn't
> match (although Genie - I see a resemblance to you; her face is a little
> rounder, but it's close).
>
> Karen
>
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Subject: [h-cost] OT:doubles/Charlie D
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I love Ground Force, Charlie is a cutie, and she doesn't really need a bra.

G
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Ron Carnegie wrote:

>lizyoung> Anyone know where I can get good quality repro belt hardware (mid-late 
>lizyoung> 16th century) as seen in this portrait of the tailor?
>
>
>     This is very much like the set originally created by Tim Finkas. 
>They are now available through Historic Enterprises.
>  
>
Thank you Nicole and Ron, Historic Enterprises does indeed have the 
whole set, as well as selling individual pieces. However, as you 
mentioned, they are at Pennsic right now, so I'll have to be patient and 
wait.

liz young


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Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2003 10:49:52 -0700
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Heather Rose Jones <hrjones@socrates.berkeley.edu>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] what's your degree in?
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At 11:47 PM -0400 8/8/03, Kirrily Robert wrote:
>Danielle wrote:
>>  I realize it was an honest mistake - (you should see my spelling and
>>  grammar after I have been reading 16th century wills for too long...)  But
>>  I couldn't resist.  I was feeling whimsical.  : )  Frankly, I'm amazed that
>>  you can do so much, so well!
>
>Oh, don't get me started on what 16th century texts do to your spelling!
>For me it's mostly cookbooks, and I can't spell "vinegar" or "cinnamon"
>without stopping to think really carefully.

I've discovered some very amusing typos while editing my 
dissertation.  The Medieval Welsh tends to infect and slop over into 
my English spelling on occasion, so that I find I've type Welsh 
homophones (or near-homophones) for English words.  The ones I 
remember are typing "holl" for "whole", and "yn" for "in" (which also 
happen to be cognates).

Heather
-- 
*****
Heather Rose Jones
hrjones@socrates.berkeley.edu
*****
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From: "Linda Rice" <vmaa2@cox.net>
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Subject: [h-cost] The latest look for ancient Vikings
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Now this is a fashion show that even I would do! 

http://www.msnbc.com/news/950386.asp?0cv=CB20

::Linda::





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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Sun Aug 10 11:43:21 2003
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From: "Saragrace knauf" <saragrace@earthlink.net>
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Subject: [h-cost] Bjarne Commercial starch-was: pink dupioni
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Whoops, sorry I almost missed your post Bjarne. 
To get the body back you can use liquid starch.  In the US one product
is called Sta-Flo.   But all it is is corn starch and borax, 'ironing
aids', processing aids, perfume and I think a little bluing-it is light
blue in color.  If you can't find it or heavy spray starch, you can make
your own.  I know several people on this list have made their own
starch.
Let me know how it works out!

 Next time you might want to put my name in the subject line to make
sure I don't miss it!  (Or send it directly to me).  

Sg


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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Sun Aug 10 14:30:11 2003
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Hi Saragrace,
Yes it was a flopper, i should have done as you said.
But thanks for your help, ill do this one of the next days.
I'll make a copy of the fashion print and post on my side so that you could
have a look of this charming dress.
Thanks Saragrace!

Bjarne





Leif og Bjarne Drews
www.my-drewscostumes.dk

http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/
----- Original Message -----
From: "Saragrace knauf" <saragrace@earthlink.net>
To: "'Historical Costume'" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Sunday, August 10, 2003 5:40 PM
Subject: [h-cost] Bjarne Commercial starch-was: pink dupioni


> Whoops, sorry I almost missed your post Bjarne.
> To get the body back you can use liquid starch.  In the US one product
> is called Sta-Flo.   But all it is is corn starch and borax, 'ironing
> aids', processing aids, perfume and I think a little bluing-it is light
> blue in color.  If you can't find it or heavy spray starch, you can make
> your own.  I know several people on this list have made their own
> starch.
> Let me know how it works out!
>
>  Next time you might want to put my name in the subject line to make
> sure I don't miss it!  (Or send it directly to me).
>
> Sg
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
>


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Hi.
Have some of you found out of an interresting thing.
Studying the french fashion prints i have photographed made me stumble apun
a thing i never noticed before.
Those french prints shows all the ladies foots. You can see the whole shoe
and  a little of the ankle.
I have a german fashion book from the same period and here all the foot is
hided of the skirt.
So was french fashion more daring than english/german fashions?
Or did the fashion spread out to all Europe.
I think i recal a robe anglaise at the V&A wich has an underskirt wich also
shows the whole foot?
And many of the Kyoto costumes shows the same, but perhaps they are of
french origin?

Bjarne





Leif og Bjarne Drews
www.my-drewscostumes.dk

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Well, my site has been online and in pre-view mode for a few weeks now but I haven't mentioned it as there are still things I'd like to add before I consider website release 1.0 complete.  For anyone who wants to have a peek the address is www.ThrednedleStrete.com and when it's been tweaked a bit more and filled in I'll put another announcement out.  You will find now a downloadable copy of Stubbes - Anatomy of Abuses and quite a few proclamations relating to the English clothing industry plus some period buttons and tools.  I'm also working on getting some software set up to support "shareware" patterns, with downloads, photos and a "review this pattern" mechanism for anyone who might want to participate.  It's going to be a fun rather than money making enterprise but set up like a professional web store. Patterns will be via pdf printouts.  I'll be charging for the bandwidth to support this, but patterns can be shared with anyone you like.  The designer who contributed the pattern will have an option of requesting payment if the user finds it useful.  Don't know if any one ever receives money from shareware stuff, but I'll provide some more details later as I work out a few procedures.

Cheers,

Lisa Sinervo
Thrednedle Strete Clothiers
www.ThrednedleStrete.com

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Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 20:07:53 +0100
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Jean Waddie <anne@montgomerie.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Constructive criticism needed
References: <HlcnPGF5cBN$Iwmv@montgomerie.demon.co.uk>
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Well, I think I've done it.  Try 
http://www.montgomerie.demon.co.uk/Personal/Costume/Squarearmhole.doc

Hope it helps,

Jean


Saragrace knauf <saragrace@earthlink.net> wrote
>Jean, I would be very indebted to you.  Thanks very much!
>
>Sg
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com]
>On Behalf Of Jean Waddie
>Sent: Friday, August 08, 2003 2:34 PM
>To: Historical Costume
>Cc: Flemish_Garb@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: Re: [h-cost] Constructive criticism needed
>
>
>Saragrace,
>
>The bit about the sleeve being squared off rang a bell with me.  I had
>been looking recently in the wonderful book my mother gave me on
>drafting and adapting patterns, which I use particularly for sleeves
>("Creating fashion" by Betty Foster, 1983).  It has a wing sleeve with
>deep armhole which comes down to a right angle and straight line across
>the bottom of the armhole.  I've never seen such a seam on an actual
>garment, all the batwing sleeves I remember were raglan, or cut as a
>single piece with the bodice.  But it might give you a clue to doing a
>tighter version of the same thing.
>
>I will attempt to scan and post the diagrams at the weekend, if I can
>work the technology.
>
>Jean
>

-- 
Jean Waddie
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From: "Saragrace knauf" <saragrace@earthlink.net>
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Subject: RE: [h-cost] Constructive criticism needed
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Yes that helps me a lot!  I have to admit I am pretty proud of myself
because I was pretty close...
I had not put the squared off part as part of the sleeve and had not
curved the sleeve arm seam (but I was thinking that would help get the
sleeve smaller up by the arm pit....)  I am still going to work hard at
refining it, but I don't think folks in the class are as interested in
the refinements as I am....

Your pictures also gave me another idea...when asking questions (or for
help)  about construction it would help for me to put pictures of my
pattern pieces up before they are put together...it really helps to see
the pattern pieces.

Thank you sOOOOOOO much.  That was an interesting way to put a link in a
letter or page..why did you do it like that?  Is there a reason you
don't just paste the link in the email?  (I am learning about webpages
etc as well, hence my questions)

Also, did you realize your resolution was so high?  That second jpg was
8 meg!  My broadband is down today...I was using my poor little dial up!
WOWZA!

Thank you so much again...


Sg

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From: "Saragrace knauf" <saragrace@earthlink.net>
To: "'Historical Costume'" <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: RE: [h-cost] Bjarne Commercial starch-was: pink dupioni
Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 16:31:05 -0700
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Please do post your picture, but also I missed what you did which was a
flop!!  What did you do, just wash it?  I am rooting for your
fabric...don't know why...maybe because I have been so happy with my dye
jobs over horrible colors!! 

-----Original Message-----
From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com]
On Behalf Of Bjarne og Leif Drews
Sent: Sunday, August 10, 2003 11:28 AM
To: Historical Costume
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Bjarne Commercial starch-was: pink dupioni


Hi Saragrace,
Yes it was a flopper, i should have done as you said.
But thanks for your help, ill do this one of the next days. I'll make a
copy of the fashion print and post on my side so that you could have a
look of this charming dress. Thanks Saragrace!

Bjarne


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From: Marsha Hamilton <mjh@pearlandplume.com>
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Subject: [h-cost] h-cost: Viking fashion show
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A friend forwarded this news flash.  Has anyone heard of this event?

Marsha
----------


Viking Models Strut the Catwalk in Ancient Fashion Show
By Christian Wienberg Associated Press Writer

Published: Aug 9, 2003
   
LEJRE, Denmark (AP) - It wasn't quite haute couture and the models weren't
exactly Givenchy. But the clothes were chic, or at least fashionable in
their time - thousands of years ago. Models in hides, wool and coarse linen
strutted the Viking catwalk Saturday, showing off the "latest" in
prehistoric and medieval fashion at an outdoor museum near this small town,
25 miles west of the capital, Copenhagen.

The designs of ancient Scandinavia were recreated from pieces of fabric
excavated from archaeological sites. One model, 20-year-old Galit Peleg wore
a tight woolen blouse and skirt of strings from the Bronze Age, some 3,000
years ago, probably used only on ceremonial occasions.

"It's very tight-fitting and warm, and not very practical," she said. "But
the skirt makes you want to dance."

For more than 40 years, the cultural center near Lejre has provided tourists
the possibility of experiencing the Iron Age by demonstrating how people
lived thousands of years ago.

The 23 models displayed clothes ranging from the Stone Age, some 6,000 years
ago though the Iron Age, 2,000 years ago, to the Viking era. The latest
fashion was from the Middle Ages.

Ancient Scandinavian music accompanied the show, played by a three-woman
band on string instruments and drums.

"Most people think the ancient times were gray and dull," said organizer
Anne Batzer. "In reality, folks back then did a lot of decoration on their
clothes, and used bright colors like yellow, lime and red."

"Back then, too, clothes were a key way to display status," said Batzer, who
describes herself as an archaeological textile technologist.

In the Bronze Age, women coveted a tight-fitting woolen shirt with a cinched
waist. In the Iron Age, fashion changed to a more loose fit, with flowing,
pleated garments. The Viking era brought back tight, sexy fits, Batzer said.

Lisbet Kristensen, a 50-year-old model, said her gray, woolen Iron Age dress
was comfortable and "only a little bit itchy."

--- 

    





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Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 20:44:29 -0400
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Mara Riley <mara@rileyhome.net>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Historical doubles (WAS: OT: "doubles")
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At 04:59 PM 8/8/2003 -0700, you wrote:
>Anyone else on this list have  historical "double"?
>
>I do . . . a Victorian duchess. I also know several other people who do. 
>Someone I used to know from Renaissance Faire, for instance, is a dead 
>ringer for the 3/4 portrait of (the Elizabethan) Sir Henry Unton that I've 
>seen in several books. (In his case, I think it's partly the beard.)
>
>Anyone else?

Susannah Fourment, apparently.  I have Rubens' portrait of her on my wall 
at work, and people have asked me if I got into period costume and had my 
portrait painted.

A duplicate of her costume IS on my round-to-it list, really!  <G>

-- M

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From: "A.Thurman" <athurman@cybergal.com>
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Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 21:22:20 -0400
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Subject: [h-cost] Blackwork distribution question
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Yes! The Sew Perfect worked to stabilize my linen, and now I'm itching to
start embroidering the partlet! However, I'm running into the question of
where to put the blackwork.

I'm using Margo's pattern that aims for the 1560s, and her instructions
suggest vertical bands running alongside the neck opening. However, I was
originally inspired by Holbien's miniature of Mrs. Pemberton
(http://www.abcgallery.com/H/holbein/holbein47.html) that features
embroidery on the neck band only - as featured in most of the ca. 1530s-40s
portraits I've found in my books and online.

I'd like to combine both, but the only good portrait example I've found is
Italian rather than English/northern European, Bronzino's Lady in Green from
1530-32 (http://www.sca.org.au/bacchus_wood/images/bronzinoLIG.jpg). I did
find a black and white copy of some musicians by an anonymous painter
(http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Crete/1581/bwgallery/bl129.htm) but still
haven't managed to find a better version.

If anyone can offer any other resources that show examples of both neck band
and neck opening blackwork ca. 1540s-1560s, I'd be grateful - please feel
free to contact me off list. If no such thing exists, I'll need to decide
whether I want to do a 1540's or 1560's-style partlet and embellish
accordingly!

Thanks,

Allison T.

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From: "Glenda Robinson" <glendar@compassnet.com.au>
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Constructive criticism needed
Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 12:05:17 +1000
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Hi Jean,

The jpgs are blank from here.

Glenda.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jean Waddie" <anne@montgomerie.demon.co.uk>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Monday, August 11, 2003 5:07 AM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Constructive criticism needed


> Well, I think I've done it.  Try 
> http://www.montgomerie.demon.co.uk/Personal/Costume/Squarearmhole.doc
> 
> Hope it helps,
> 
> Jean
> 
> 
> Saragrace knauf <saragrace@earthlink.net> wrote
> >Jean, I would be very indebted to you.  Thanks very much!
> >
> >Sg
> >
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com]
> >On Behalf Of Jean Waddie
> >Sent: Friday, August 08, 2003 2:34 PM
> >To: Historical Costume
> >Cc: Flemish_Garb@yahoogroups.com
> >Subject: Re: [h-cost] Constructive criticism needed
> >
> >
> >Saragrace,
> >
> >The bit about the sleeve being squared off rang a bell with me.  I had
> >been looking recently in the wonderful book my mother gave me on
> >drafting and adapting patterns, which I use particularly for sleeves
> >("Creating fashion" by Betty Foster, 1983).  It has a wing sleeve with
> >deep armhole which comes down to a right angle and straight line across
> >the bottom of the armhole.  I've never seen such a seam on an actual
> >garment, all the batwing sleeves I remember were raglan, or cut as a
> >single piece with the bodice.  But it might give you a clue to doing a
> >tighter version of the same thing.
> >
> >I will attempt to scan and post the diagrams at the weekend, if I can
> >work the technology.
> >
> >Jean
> >
> 
> -- 
> Jean Waddie
> _______________________________________________
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>Dawn wrote:

>I also seem to be just me. OTOH, my husband is a doppelganger (I think

>that's the proper term) of Czar Nicholas III; it's really a little
eerie 
>when he wears late Victorian or Edwardian dress. 

Have you seen Prince Michael of Kent on TV? His likeness to the Czar is
uncanny, but of course they are related.
My late father was apparently very like King George VI when he was
young. I can see it in photos, but by the time I first remember him (he
was 43 when I was born) he had become fuller in the face and wore
spectacles. 

Kate Bunting
Library, University of Derby
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From: "Kate M Bunting" <K.M.Bunting@derby.ac.uk>
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Subject: [h-cost] Report on Stoneleigh
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I saw some excellent costumes at English Heritage's Stoneleigh event.
There was a Queen Victoria, an Elizabethan lady and a 1780s one, and a
splendid Green Man. I also saw a few late 17th century folk, although
Nicole said her group were not attending? Plenty of dishy Napoleonic men
and the ever-popular Romans.
It was terribly hot on the Saturday (in the high 90s Fahrenheit,
exceptional for Britain), and to make matters worse some awful mix-up
resulted in the security staff refusing entry to participants who
arrived after 8 a.m., when we hadn't been warned in advance. (Our group
had set up on Friday night.) It was sorted out, but only after some
people had turned round and gone home again. Then there was a
spectacular thunderstorm on Sunday p.m. - we thought we might escape the
rain but it came eventually. No problems with mud as the showground is
criss-crossed with metalled roads, but it meant packing up wet tents.
So, some good things about the new venue but some improvements in
communication needed!

Kate Bunting
Library, University of Derby
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Semi-OT: Winter Cloak (non-costume) Interlining/padding
Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 07:38:48 -0500
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Thinsulate is a very light, easily handled batting - might work very well
for you.
There is also a  fusible batting available; it's thicker than thinsulate but
nowhere near as bulky as most battings - kind of standard lightweight. I've
used it for smaller quilting projects and it works quite well, certainly
saves a lot of pinning.

Nora

>From: "Jean Waddie" <anne@montgomerie.demon.co.uk>
> Thinsulate.  I know of people who interline their period cloaks with it,
> too.
> >I'm thinking of some sort of fusible batting,
> >maybe (that way I can fuse it down and then flatline-sew it to either
> >the liningor the cashmere itself), but I have no idea.  Ah..help!
> >Christine


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site down again?
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Allison wrote:
> I'm using Margo's pattern that aims for the 1560s, and her instructions
> suggest vertical bands running alongside the neck opening. However, I was
> originally inspired by Holbien's miniature of Mrs. Pemberton
> (http://www.abcgallery.com/H/holbein/holbein47.html) that features
> embroidery on the neck band only - as featured in most of the ca. 1530s-40s
> portraits I've found in my books and online.

I can't help answer your specific question, but you might like to look
at my version of Mrs Pemberton's shirt which I completed last year:
http://elizabethangeek.com/katrowberd/projects/2002-blackwork-smock/
I worked it in silk on handkerchief linen.

K.

-- 
Lady Katherine Rowberd (mka Kirrily "Skud" Robert)
katherine@elizabethangeek.com  http://elizabethangeek.com/
Caldrithig, Skraeling Althing, Ealdormere
"The rose is red, the leaves are grene, God save Elizabeth our Queene"
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From: KATHRYN WOLTERS <albrakat7@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Blackwork distribution question
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
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Kirrily--the needlework is beautiful! Thanks for sharing !
Albra

Kirrily Robert <skud@infotrope.net> wrote:
Allison wrote:
> I'm using Margo's pattern that aims for the 1560s, and her instructions
> suggest vertical bands running alongside the neck opening. However, I was
> originally inspired by Holbien's miniature of Mrs. Pemberton
> (http://www.abcgallery.com/H/holbein/holbein47.html) that features
> embroidery on the neck band only - as featured in most of the ca. 1530s-40s
> portraits I've found in my books and online.

I can't help answer your specific question, but you might like to look
at my version of Mrs Pemberton's shirt which I completed last year:
http://elizabethangeek.com/katrowberd/projects/2002-blackwork-smock/
I worked it in silk on handkerchief linen.

K.

-- 
Lady Katherine Rowberd (mka Kirrily "Skud" Robert)
katherine@elizabethangeek.com http://elizabethangeek.com/
Caldrithig, Skraeling Althing, Ealdormere
"The rose is red, the leaves are grene, God save Elizabeth our Queene"
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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Mon Aug 11 21:57:01 2003
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From: "Linda Rice" <vmaa2@cox.net>
To: "'Historical Costume'" <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: RE: [h-cost] h-cost: Viking fashion show
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 21:29:16 -0400
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Yes, I posted the link to the MSNBC site on Sunday... but if the list is
wonky again it may not have made it around to everyone. Anyway, when I
looked at the site on Sunday, it had a photo of a woman modeling a repro
of a string skirt. Today I looked again and the photo was different-
this time of a line of models holding hands and walking across a lovely
Danish meadow. It looked like a lot of fun, wish I could have been
there.

Pax- ::Linda::

 
-----Original Message-----
From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com]
On Behalf Of Marsha Hamilton
Sent: Sunday, August 10, 2003 7:51 PM
To: Historical Costume
Subject: [h-cost] h-cost: Viking fashion show

A friend forwarded this news flash.  Has anyone heard of this event?

Marsha
----------


Viking Models Strut the Catwalk in Ancient Fashion Show
By Christian Wienberg Associated Press Writer


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Subject: [h-cost] Bjarne-Golden Gown of Denmark
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Bjarne,
Do you know if there are any patterns available to make a dress similar to the Golden Gown stated to belong to Queen Margaret of Denmark?
I have a friend (AElina) who is very interested in recreating this type of gown for her formal court dress for our SCA group.
Many Thanks for any information which you might have.
Ysandra and AElina
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To: "'Historical Costume'" <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: RE: [h-cost] h-cost: Viking fashion show
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You can see a photo here:
http://www.msnbc.com/news/950386.asp?0cv=CB20

I think this event was a one off, but the Iron Age Study Center is a
great place to visit. There is a building with many textile displays,
including fabric production techniques and recreated garments.

The gift shop is also super, I bought a pattern for a Viking shirt
(taken from a historical model) and wooden knitting needles. They have
hand spun yarns, too.

My kids enjoyed grinding oats and baking little cakes. You can boat on
the lake a see a recreated sacrifical bog (think Bog Men).

There are houses and livestock, and tours by archaeologists. Not to be
missed, if you are in Denmark.

Kim

-----Original Message-----
From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com]
On Behalf Of Marsha Hamilton
Sent: Sunday, August 10, 2003 6:51 PM
To: Historical Costume
Subject: [h-cost] h-cost: Viking fashion show

A friend forwarded this news flash.  Has anyone heard of this event?

Marsha
----------


Viking Models Strut the Catwalk in Ancient Fashion Show
By Christian Wienberg Associated Press Writer

Published: Aug 9, 2003
   
LEJRE, Denmark (AP) - It wasn't quite haute couture and the models
weren't
exactly Givenchy. But the clothes were chic, or at least fashionable in
their time - thousands of years ago. Models in hides, wool and coarse
linen
strutted the Viking catwalk Saturday, showing off the "latest" in
prehistoric and medieval fashion at an outdoor museum near this small
town,
25 miles west of the capital, Copenhagen.

The designs of ancient Scandinavia were recreated from pieces of fabric
excavated from archaeological sites. One model, 20-year-old Galit Peleg
wore
a tight woolen blouse and skirt of strings from the Bronze Age, some
3,000
years ago, probably used only on ceremonial occasions.

"It's very tight-fitting and warm, and not very practical," she said.
"But
the skirt makes you want to dance."

For more than 40 years, the cultural center near Lejre has provided
tourists
the possibility of experiencing the Iron Age by demonstrating how people
lived thousands of years ago.

The 23 models displayed clothes ranging from the Stone Age, some 6,000
years
ago though the Iron Age, 2,000 years ago, to the Viking era. The latest
fashion was from the Middle Ages.

Ancient Scandinavian music accompanied the show, played by a three-woman
band on string instruments and drums.

"Most people think the ancient times were gray and dull," said organizer
Anne Batzer. "In reality, folks back then did a lot of decoration on
their
clothes, and used bright colors like yellow, lime and red."

"Back then, too, clothes were a key way to display status," said Batzer,
who
describes herself as an archaeological textile technologist.

In the Bronze Age, women coveted a tight-fitting woolen shirt with a
cinched
waist. In the Iron Age, fashion changed to a more loose fit, with
flowing,
pleated garments. The Viking era brought back tight, sexy fits, Batzer
said.

Lisbet Kristensen, a 50-year-old model, said her gray, woolen Iron Age
dress
was comfortable and "only a little bit itchy."

--- 

    





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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] h-cost: Viking fashion show
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Marsha Hamilton wrote:
 > Viking Models Strut the Catwalk in Ancient Fashion Show

You can see some pictures (not enough, but some...) at

http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/europe/08/09/offbeat.viking.catwalk.ap/index.html 


  (click on the "gallery" link)

-- 
Cynthia Virtue and/or
Cynthia du Pr Argent

Medieval horseman with hound and hawk T-shirt by yours truly: 
http://store.virtue.to
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From: "A.Thurman" <athurman@cybergal.com>
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Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 22:27:52 -0400
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Subject: [h-cost] Re: Mrs. Pemberton's smock
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Message: 11
Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 21:16:24 -0400
From: Kirrily Robert <skud@infotrope.net>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Blackwork distribution question
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Message-ID: <E19mNlw-0003ik-00@eggnog>

Allison wrote:
> I'm using Margo's pattern that aims for the 1560s, and her instructions
> suggest vertical bands running alongside the neck opening. However, I was
> originally inspired by Holbien's miniature of Mrs. Pemberton
> (http://www.abcgallery.com/H/holbein/holbein47.html) that features
> embroidery on the neck band only - as featured in most of the ca.
1530s-40s
> portraits I've found in my books and online.

I can't help answer your specific question, but you might like to look
at my version of Mrs Pemberton's shirt which I completed last year:
http://elizabethangeek.com/katrowberd/projects/2002-blackwork-smock/
I worked it in silk on handkerchief linen.

	- This looks INCREDIBLE! You must have worked hard on it! I'm very
impressed!!

K.

--
Lady Katherine Rowberd (mka Kirrily "Skud" Robert)
katherine@elizabethangeek.com  http://elizabethangeek.com/
Caldrithig, Skraeling Althing, Ealdormere
"The rose is red, the leaves are grene, God save Elizabeth our Queene"

	- Allison T.

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It turns out that I have found exactly one picture from ca. 1540-50 that
demonstrates the neck band/vertical band layout I have in mind. It's called
"Unknown Lady" by an Unknown Flemish Master - I cannot find a picture online
but for those of you who have QEWU it's in the "Pursuit of Fashion" chapter.

I'm trying to find at least one other example though, to assure myself that
I'm not completely out on a limb..

Allison T.

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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Mon Aug 11 22:57:57 2003
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Subject: RE: [h-cost] Some progress re: blackwork distribution
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I believe that's figure 238 in QEWU for those of you who are looking for it.


-----Original Message-----
From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com] On
Behalf Of A.Thurman
Sent: Monday, August 11, 2003 7:30 PM
To: Historic Costume List (E-mail)
Subject: [h-cost] Some progress re: blackwork distribution


It turns out that I have found exactly one picture from ca. 1540-50 that
demonstrates the neck band/vertical band layout I have in mind. It's called
"Unknown Lady" by an Unknown Flemish Master - I cannot find a picture online
but for those of you who have QEWU it's in the "Pursuit of Fashion" chapter.

I'm trying to find at least one other example though, to assure myself that
I'm not completely out on a limb..

Allison T.

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From: "Lisa Sinervo" <Lisa-list@threadneedlest.com>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
References: <20030812013835.81211.qmail@web9403.mail.yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Blackwork distribution question
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yes, absolutely beautiful!

Lisa 

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "KATHRYN WOLTERS" <albrakat7@yahoo.com>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Monday, August 11, 2003 6:38 PM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Blackwork distribution question


> Kirrily--the needlework is beautiful! Thanks for sharing !
> Albra
> 



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> At 04:59 PM 8/8/2003 -0700, you wrote:
>> Anyone else on this list have  historical "double"?

The portrait of Sophie Crouzet by Louis Hersent (c. 1810) in the Cleveland
Art Museum fascinated me since I was a child.  As a teenager, I looked like
her, so much so that people commented on it when I stood in front of the
painting.  Now that I'm older, I thought the similarity was lost until
someone recently saw a print in my home and asked if she was an ancestor.

I wish I could find out what ever happened to her and if any portraits were
painted of her later in life.  (Costume content: she is wearing a
delightfully draped white empire gown with embroidered bands on the little
capped sleeves.)  

Marsha

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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Bjarne-Golden Gown of Denmark
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 17:26:43 +1200
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<<Do you know if there are any patterns available to make a dress similar to
the Golden Gown stated to belong to Queen Margaret of Denmark?>>

I'm not Bjarne but there is a pattern of it in the ageofthecotehardie list
at yahoo.com:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ageofthecotehardie/files/Uta%27s%20corner/
They have actually got a new list up as something happened with the
moderator and there is a whole lot of spam (porn type) but the files are
still there. And you can do a search for golden gown to find out about the
process of it being made of any discussions.

She made the gown from wool and it works well aparently.

Also I got to see a video of the reproduction being worn... wow is all I can
say. It had me dreaming of cloth of gold for a while;)

michaela
http://costumes.glittersweet.com



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From: Chris Laning <claning@igc.org>
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Subject: [h-cost] Applique documentation?
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Having volunteered to write an article about applique before 1600, 
I'm unhappily finding that I'm coming up rather short when it comes 
to both examples and information. I'm hoping I can pick other 
people's brains <g>.

I'm particularly concerned about techniques -- I know applique _was_ 
used as a decorative fabric technique, and I know some plausible 
techniques that make it lots easier -- what I can't seem to find is 
information about whether anything was done in period that was any 
more sophisticated than plunking down cutouts of one fabric on 
another and starting to sew.

Two things that I find a considerable help in doing applique now are 
glue and paper. Manipulating cloth on top of cloth means that any 
slippage between the two can create ripples and twerks on the 
finished project. Pinning and basting are often only partly 
successful in preventing this, especially if one or both fabrics are 
slippery.

One solution is to lightly glue the applique down before stitching -- 
and I'd love to know whether this is a period practice. In modern 
times I use light-tack spray adhesive or an ordinary gluestick for 
this (the latter being basically concentrated "milk glue", and both 
types wash out of the fabric later). I would speculate that a light 
coat of something like fish glue might have been used in period, but 
I really don't know.

Another solution is to back the applique with stiff paper, which 
provides a firm edge and prevents the upper cloth from distorting. I 
know that a parchment or paper backing was used for beadwork, but I'd 
love to know whether it was used for simple cloth-on-cloth applique 
as well. Modern needleworkers have re-invented this method as 
"freezer-paper applique".

TIA --
-- 
_________________________________________________________
O    Chris Laning
|     <claning@igc.org>
+    Davis, California
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From: =?iso-8859-1?q?N=20Kipar?= <nicolas_fouquet@yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: [h-cost] h-cost: Viking fashion show
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 --- Linda Rice <vmaa2@cox.net> wrote: > Yes, I posted the link to the MSNBC
site on Sunday... but if the list is
> wonky again it may not have made it around to everyone. Anyway, when I
> looked at the site on Sunday, it had a photo of a woman modeling a repro
> of a string skirt. Today I looked again and the photo was different-
> this time of a line of models holding hands and walking across a lovely
> Danish meadow. It looked like a lot of fun, wish I could have been
> there.

Interestingly they did the exact same fashion show over 10 years ago. Ben, my
other half, was in Leyra then doing the same thing (10 days living history
show) that friends of ours did this year. I saw the photos of the fashion show,
and must say the girl they had in the same string skirt back then was a lot
more HUBBA! HUBBA! *laughs*

Nicole

=====
One of the Three Baroque Lurve Goddess    
http://www.kipar.org/society/events/lichfield03/saturday-lurve-goddesses.jpg

Email: nicole@kipar.org
URL: http://www.kipar.org

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From: =?iso-8859-1?q?N=20Kipar?= <nicolas_fouquet@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Report on Stoneleigh
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
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 --- Kate M Bunting <K.M.Bunting@derby.ac.uk> wrote: > I saw some excellent
costumes at English Heritage's Stoneleigh event.
> There was a Queen Victoria, an Elizabethan lady and a 1780s one, and a
> splendid Green Man. I also saw a few late 17th century folk,

There are some people doing some late 17th c. stuff but only the costumes, no
LH. They are not bad, but... *G* of course I say wa are loads better! *laughs*
just kidding, if they are who I think they are they are quite nice.

 although
> Nicole said her group were not attending? 

Absolutely! I will never ever ever ever work for EH again, I even left
membership and changed to National Trust, I also sent them a letter to not EVER
contact us again. Me? Angry with EH? Nah......

> So, some good things about the new venue but some improvements in
> communication needed!

Glad you enjoyed yourself, Kate!

Nicole - who admits to have been glad not to having to do any re-enactment in
last weekend's heat.

=====
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http://www.kipar.org/society/events/lichfield03/saturday-lurve-goddesses.jpg

Email: nicole@kipar.org
URL: http://www.kipar.org

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From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" <drewscph@post12.tele.dk>
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	<002701c36092$51d6a8e0$7accadcb@michaela>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Bjarne-Golden Gown of Denmark
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 10:42:48 +0200
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Status: RO

Hi.
There is also a pattern of it in "A History of Costume" by Khler.
I saw the reproduktion gown at the danish national museum and i was in awe.
Not only was the gown made of gold threads, but it also had an intricate
tiny, tiny pattern wowen into it.
The dress in itself must have ben very stiff and difficult to wear because
of the gold threads, but i guess it was made for ceremonial use..........

Bjarne





Leif og Bjarne Drews
www.my-drewscostumes.dk

http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/
----- Original Message -----
From: "michaela" <thebruce@ihug.co.nz>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2003 7:26 AM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Bjarne-Golden Gown of Denmark


> <<Do you know if there are any patterns available to make a dress similar
to
> the Golden Gown stated to belong to Queen Margaret of Denmark?>>
>
> I'm not Bjarne but there is a pattern of it in the ageofthecotehardie list
> at yahoo.com:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ageofthecotehardie/files/Uta%27s%20corner/
> They have actually got a new list up as something happened with the
> moderator and there is a whole lot of spam (porn type) but the files are
> still there. And you can do a search for golden gown to find out about the
> process of it being made of any discussions.
>
> She made the gown from wool and it works well aparently.
>
> Also I got to see a video of the reproduction being worn... wow is all I
can
> say. It had me dreaming of cloth of gold for a while;)
>
> michaela
> http://costumes.glittersweet.com
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
>


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From: "michaela" <thebruce@ihug.co.nz>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Bjarne-Golden Gown of Denmark
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 21:45:04 +1200
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<<There is also a pattern of it in "A History of Costume" by Khler.>>
I have/had that in my files too.. aparently from those who have studied the
dress the pattern is misleading or something.. I can't really remember
why... I did forget about it though so I may have a look at it again,
thanks:)

<I saw the reproduktion gown at the danish national museum and i was in awe.
Not only was the gown made of gold threads, but it also had an intricate
tiny, tiny pattern wowen into it.>>

I know.. I now have plans to get to actually see it myself;) I didn't have
the knowelege I do now last time I was in Europe, so didn't look for it.
I do believe there are some lovely  close up images of the fabric online. I
think there are some at virtue.to

<<The dress in itself must have ben very stiff and difficult to wear because
of the gold threads, but I guess it was made for ceremonial use..........>>

This is true:) It was very stiff on the model who walked in it, and it was
clearly really heavy too, being so much gold;)
And of course it really did not fit to the figure at all which is something
interesting. The "Greenland" gowns don't fit that closely to the body
either... I wonder if it was a Scandenavian thing? Or if the illuninations
etc show artists fancy rather than reality?

Oh yes there are many costuming places I have plans on visiting next time I
travel;) And I really really want to see all the extant garments I can of
course...

michaela
http://costumes.glittersweet.com


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Bjarne og Leif Drews wrote:
> Not only was the gown made of gold threads, but it also had an intricate
> tiny, tiny pattern wowen into it.

A couple years ago, people on this list found lots of information on the 
reproduction and I put it in a webpage; I don't know if it's been 
mentioned yet (having just rejoined), so here's the URL: 
http://www.virtue.to/articles/margaret.html

This includes close-ups of the reconstruction fabric with the weaving 
pattern, but not the pattern for cutting.

-- 
Cynthia Virtue and/or
Cynthia du Pr Argent

The twins are a year and a half old now, and I'm starting to have free 
time again!
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Bjarne-Golden Gown of Denmark
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<<A couple years ago, people on this list found lots of information on the
reproduction and I put it in a webpage; I don't know if it's been
mentioned yet (having just rejoined), so here's the URL:
http://www.virtue.to/articles/margaret.html

This includes close-ups of the reconstruction fabric with the weaving
pattern, but not the pattern for cutting.>>

lol! I think you sent this at the same time I sent mine;) I wasn't too sure
of the actual page so I just had virtue.to;)

With this ind the pattern diagram on the yahoo list I think that should just
about cover as much info as we have as yet.. unless there are people out
there holding out on us;)

michaela
http://costumes.glittersweet.com


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Growing up, my parents had prints of Renoir's 'Girl With Hoop' and
'Girl With Watering Can'.  I was sure they were supposed to be my
sister and me!  I was 'Girl With Watering Can':
http://www.allposters.com/gallery.asp?aid=661618&item=126649

					...eliz

-- 
"The decision to have a child is to accept that your heart will
forever walk about outside of your body"    - Katharine Hadley




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This doesn't involve me at all, but I've always felt that Uma Thurman was
a dead-ringer for Queen Alexandra. 


Karen

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Subject: [h-cost] Re: Some progress re: blackwork distribution
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Status: RO

It turns out that I have found exactly one picture from ca. 1540-50
that
demonstrates the neck band/vertical band layout I have in mind. It's
called
"Unknown Lady" by an Unknown Flemish Master - I cannot find a picture
online
but for those of you who have QEWU it's in the "Pursuit of Fashion"
chapter.

I'm trying to find at least one other example though, to assure myself
that
I'm not completely out on a limb..

Allison T.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Allison,
The portrait of 'The Man in Red' that hangs in Hampton Court shows him
in a shirt w/ blackworked collar band as well as a blackwork strip down
the front on either side of the front opening.  There is a b&w copy of
this picture in Ashelford's A Visual History of Costume: The 16th
Century.  From the rest of his attire I would definately date him mid
16th C.

Also, I love this site for looking at blackwork in portraits.  There
might be some help here:
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Crete/1581/bwgallery/

And your work is beautiful Kirrily :)!

Catherine


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From: Melanie Schuessler <melanie@faucet.net>
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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Some progress re: blackwork distribution
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What about this one:
http://www.nga.gov/cgi-bin/pimage?374+0+0
http://www.nga.gov/cgi-bin/pimage?374+0+1

(Portrait of a Lady in White by da Brescia c. 1540)
She has something sheer on over it, but she does have on a shirt that's 
blackworked at collar and in stripes--it's unfastened and the slash is 
pulled open.  Of course, being Italian it may have a different type of 
collar than the ones you've been citing.

There's also
http://www.nga.gov/cgi-bin/pimage?47+0+0
http://www.nga.gov/cgi-bin/pimage?47+0+1

(Portrait of a Lady by Luini c. 1520-25)
Again Italian and wearing something sheer overtop.  This one might be 
too early for you.

Best of luck,
Melanie Schuessler
http://www.faucet.net/costume

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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Applique documentation?
From: "Chiara" <chiara@io.com>
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There is a beading webpage that has many examples of what may be what you
are looking for including this example. The webpages owner is currently at
Pensic. She was in England this past Spring doing research in the archives
of the museums handling many of these rare and precious historical items
first hand and can tell you all about them. She has been asked to write an
article for one of the leading beading magazines to be out next spring.

I know the page has to do with beading but the type of applique that you
are talking about here specifically is part of the images in the gallery
at the bottom of the page. Scroll down and click on it.

http://www.medievalbeads.com

Chiara

> Unfortunately I can't help you with your glue or paper questions.  I do
> have some early applique to offer, though.  I have a photocopy of a page
>  from a book that lives in the UW Madison main library.  I wish I knew
> what book it was!!  It has a photograph of what looks like a metallic
> ground with circles appliqued on and stitched with crosses.  The caption
>  reads "Silk material with application from the cover of the tome of St.
>  Wenceslas, first half of the 12th century.  First mentioned in the
> inventory of 1387 of the Prague Cathedral of St. Vitus.  Prague,
> Municipal Museum."  I can't remember whether the original picture was in
>  color or not, unfortunately, as this copy was made years ago.
>
> Best of luck,
> Melanie Schuessler
> http://www.faucet.net/costume
>
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Applique documentation?
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Unfortunately I can't help you with your glue or paper questions.  I do 
have some early applique to offer, though.  I have a photocopy of a page 
from a book that lives in the UW Madison main library.  I wish I knew 
what book it was!!  It has a photograph of what looks like a metallic 
ground with circles appliqued on and stitched with crosses.  The caption 
reads "Silk material with application from the cover of the tome of St. 
Wenceslas, first half of the 12th century.  First mentioned in the 
inventory of 1387 of the Prague Cathedral of St. Vitus.  Prague, 
Municipal Museum."  I can't remember whether the original picture was in 
color or not, unfortunately, as this copy was made years ago.

Best of luck,
Melanie Schuessler
http://www.faucet.net/costume

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From: "Five Rivers" <info@5rivers.org>
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Subject: [h-cost] Re: Applique documentation?
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Status: RO

     This question was asked in January on another list to which I
subscribe. Follows my post:

  Applique was prevelant throughout Europe and indeed the Middle East and
Asia from as early (as far as my own personal records go) as 814AD.

    To cite just a very few examples, all taken from Art of Embroidery, by
Schuette and whatshername, concentrating on works having do with the Holy
Roman Empire and Siciliy:

- Circular Panel: annunciation and visitation, Coptic, 7-8th c., London V&A
(814-1903), 17.5 c.m. Very clearly applique of linen on linen, silk threads.
- Stole & Maniple of St. Cuthbert 909-916 AD, England, Durham Cathedral
- Dalmatic cuff, part of the Insignia of the HOly Roman Empire, Sicily,
Palerma Royal Workshop 1130-1140, Period of King roger II. Viena, Weltliche
Schatxkammer. Cuff 21 cm wide. 'Two details: The dalmatic is of deep purple
silk. The apparels illustrated, however, - a cuff and the lower border - are
mde of a silk material resembling that of the Coronation Mantle ....
According to Fillitz the garment may belong to the same set of vestments as
the Coronation Mantle.' (Aside to Tangwystl: this is the coronation mantle
we were discussing at 12th Night.)
- lower cuff of the alb, part of the insignia of the Holy Roman Empire.
Sicily, Palermo Royal Workshop 1181; alb of King William of Sicily
- Medallion: Christ Pantocrator, Byzantium c. 1200. Speyer Cathedral
Treasury. 'Applied to Mantle of King Philip of Swabia (d. 1208) which was
found when his tomb was opened in the Cathedral of Speyer.'
- Ealge Dalmatic - one of the Insignia of the Holy Roman Empire. Austria
3-4th decade of the 14th c. 'Purple silk damask with applied circular
medallions showing eagles embroidered in blac on gold ground.'

    There ya go. To illustrate just a few. :-)

> what I can't seem to find is
> information about whether anything was done in period that was any
> more sophisticated than plunking down cutouts of one fabric on
> another and starting to sew.

    In my 15 years of research I come up with nothing until the early 18th
century. We do know fish glue was often, not always, used on the backs of
embroideries, and we do know in the 18th century appliques were sold by the
pound to clients, and hence the law that prevented embroidery houses from
using copious quantities of glue in order to drive up the price.

    In the majority of the academic reports I've read there is no mention
whatever of any sort of sizing being used in pre-16th century work. It does
seem to be a practice used commonly after the 16th century.

> Two things that I find a considerable help in doing applique now are
> glue and paper. Manipulating cloth on top of cloth means that any
> slippage between the two can create ripples and twerks on the
> finished project. Pinning and basting are often only partly
> successful in preventing this, especially if one or both fabrics are
> slippery.

    Interesting. Not to dispute, but I have never had difficulty in work
moving. The cloak of state I did (image on our website) was done almost
entirely in applique, although the cloak is done in silk noile and hence has
a bit more tooth. I think you will find that extant works tend to have a
predominance of less than slippery fabric. Even sarcenet has a bit of tooth.
And certainly wool/silk blends have a bit of tooth that is wonderful when
employing applique. So perhaps it's more a question of choice of fabric from
an historical perspective than one of technique. Just a thought.

> I would speculate that a light
> coat of something like fish glue might have been used in period, but
> I really don't know.

    It is plausible, but given the lack of evidence in extant pieces prior
16th century one would have to lean toward a negative response.

    In all the reproduction and interpretive work I do I use period
techniques and immerse myself in historic mindset as much as I'm able,
whether it's an interpretive Celtic piece, opus anglicanum, Elizabethan,
Baroque or Regency. I have found their techniques, for the most part, work
extremely well, while I've found using modern 'fixes' and 'helps' often to
be not only expensive and time consuming, but frustrating because I'm not
able to achieve that 'lost artifact' look for which I'm searching and try to
imbue in my pieces.

    Just another perspective. :-)

Regards
Lorina
Five Rivers Chapmanry ~ purveyors of quality hand-crafted cooperage
fine hand-sewn embroidered garments, historical sewing patterns & embroidery
supplies
(519) 799-5577, fax (519) 799-5418 http://www.5rivers.org  email:
info@5rivers.org

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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Semi-OT: Winter Cloak (non-costume) Interlining/padding
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In a message dated 8/11/2003 8:47:30 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
casamai@sbcglobal.net writes:

> Thinsulate is a very light, easily handled batting - might work very well
> for you.

Seems to be working well enough so far, <g> I got it in the mail the other 
day and half of my fabric pieces are now sewn onto the thinsulate pieces.  Wow 
that stuff is thin, and the company calls it midloft!  The only bad thing is 
that it's sort of scratchy, so at the moment it's trying to stick to me, to my 
table, to my machine, to my cat...

Christine

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Subject: [h-cost] Book review wanted
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Just got a closeout catalog from The Scholar's Bookshelf, and one of the books included is "Ancient Egyptian, Mesopotamian, and Persian Costume" by Mary G. Houston.  It sounds interesting from the blurb, but then it's supposed to :) .  Anyone know if this book is worth getting?

Leah
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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: Applique documentation?
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>>Two things that I find a considerable help in doing applique now are
>>glue and paper. Manipulating cloth on top of cloth means that any
>>slippage between the two can create ripples and twerks on the
>>finished project. Pinning and basting are often only partly
>>successful in preventing this, especially if one or both fabrics are
>>slippery.
> 
> Five Rivers wrote:
 >
>     Interesting. Not to dispute, but I have never had difficulty in work
> moving.

I think that slippage is MUCH more of a problem when doing applique by 
machine than when doing it by hand.  The machine tends to stretch and 
push the fabric around, whereas with hand-stitching, one has much more 
control.  I'm sure, Lorina, that your applique was all done by hand, 
whereas the vast majority of folks would do it by machine.  (I'm not 
making assumptions about how the original poster does applique, just 
speaking in general.)

Just a thought.

Melanie Schuessler
http://www.faucet.net/costume

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From: "Saragrace T. Knauf" <saragrace@earthlink.net>
To: "'Bjarne og Leif Drews'" <drewscph@post12.tele.dk>
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 12:05:30 -0700
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Subject: [h-cost] RE: Bjarne Commercial starch-was: pink dupioni
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Oooh apple green...hmmm, I wonder if Super Silks DU-1085 "Oasis" is what you
are looking for, there is also one called Apple-DU-1033.
http://www.supersilk.com/index1.asp

I have their color cards if you want me to lend them to you.  Their prices
range from7.15 to 9.95 per yard depending on how much you buy.  I  will also
be going to the LA garment/fabric district this coming weekend and know that
I can get dupioni there for $6/yard. I know some of them do mail order.  I
will pick up swatches for you if you would like.  I have post this to the
list because I think your 'journy' is very interesting.. Gosh I wish we all
lived closer together!   

-----Original Message-----
From: Bjarne og Leif Drews [mailto:drewscph@post12.tele.dk] 
Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2003 11:13 AM
To: Saragrace T. Knauf
Subject: Re: Bjarne Commercial starch-was: pink dupioni


Hi Saragrace.
I understand your confusion. Sorry about that!
I ment that it was a flopper that i didnt put your name in the head'er, that
was a flopper. Absolutely nothing has happened yeat, but i am planning to
wash it in machine on a wool wash, so that a lot of the colour will run out,
and then i will use that starching stuff you mentioned. I have baught a
spray bottle for that. As for the fashion print, i will promise you to
upload it, ill make it after dinner tonight. Have to make my own version of
the print you know, because i cant use the original one. I found out that
there is a very suitable cut i can use in Norah Waughs, cut of womens
clothes. I have to alter the sleave, but all in all i can use this cut
(diagram XXI) Then i must go and hunt for some apple green dupioni. That
will be the hard one. Ill probably have to dye it myself. Fortunately that
is only about 3 meters i guess. The reason why i didnt wash yeat, was
because we have melting temperatures here and i was at the beach yesterday
bathing in the nude! :-) But i have made other plans as well. The other day
i was so fortunate to get some very lovely brocade. Grey brocade with off
white pattern. In a mix of cotton and viscose. I baught 15 meters of it.
Then i want to make the mantua in the cut of womens clothes diagram XVII. I
want to embroider a stomacher in grey taffeta and make the robings with
embroidery two.. This is my plan for an autumn job. I am so happy that i
almost have all the dresses in the book to make yeat!

Bjarne




Leif og Bjarne Drews
www.my-drewscostumes.dk

http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/
----- Original Message -----
From: "Saragrace T. Knauf" <saragrace@earthlink.net>
To: <drewscph@post12.tele.dk>
Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2003 6:52 PM
Subject: Bjarne Commercial starch-was: pink dupioni


This may have been missed since the list was down...I missed part of your
conversation, now you have my curisosity up!


Please do post your picture, but also I missed what you did which was a
flop!!  What did you do, just wash it?  I am rooting for your fabric...don't
know why...maybe because I have been so happy with my dye jobs over horrible
colors!!

-----Original Message-----
From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com] On
Behalf Of Bjarne og Leif Drews
Sent: Sunday, August 10, 2003 11:28 AM
To: Historical Costume
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Bjarne Commercial starch-was: pink dupioni


Hi Saragrace,
Yes it was a flopper, i should have done as you said.
But thanks for your help, ill do this one of the next days. I'll make a copy
of the fashion print and post on my side so that you could have a look of
this charming dress. Thanks Saragrace!

Bjarne






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From: "Saragrace T. Knauf" <saragrace@earthlink.net>
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Subject: RE: [h-cost] RE: Bjarne Commercial starch-one more thing I forgot!
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I forgot to tell you to do a little test before you spritz (spray) starch on
your silk...You may find that the starch will cause 'water' marks if it is
sprayed on.  You may have to mix up the starch and imerse the fabric in it
to prevent this...

:)


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There is also the Anna Meyer figure in the Meyer Madonna, her shift is
actually worked in gold (or gold colouredsilk) though.
http://gallery.euroweb.hu/html/h/holbein/hans_y/1531/1darmst3.html

And there are a few extant pieces that show it I'm sure...

http://costume.dm.net/va/smocks.html
Theses are allover though...

http://costume.dm.net/bath/
Collar and fronts decorated
Other views:
http://costume.dm.net/chemise.html

No bands, but a nice shirt nonethelesss
http://www.kipar.demon.co.uk/renaissance.html

michaela
http://costumes.glittersweet.com


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Hmmm.... how did this message go through the list again??????  I sent this
one a while back and it did show up on the list then.

Penny Ladnier
Owner, The Costume Gallery & Costume Classroom
www.costumegallery.com
www.costumeclassroom.com
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Penny Ladnier" <penny@costumegallery.com>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2003 7:01 PM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] what's your degree in?


> Colleen,
>
> I can understand but sometimes being told that you HAVE to take a class,
can
> open new doors.  Believe it or not, I didn't want to take computer
classes.
> I went in kicking and screaming.  And my first class was not a nice one...
> MS DOS.  I came home every night and cried (and got a stiff drink.)  I
made
> it through the class, and HAD to take two more computer classes.  Well, I
> fell in love with those classes... and took six more.
>
> I went in kicking and screaming after taking art history... I took one
> semester of seeing how many slides you can memorize.  I talked to my
> professors and they substituted costume history and film history classes
for
> art history.  YIPPEE!!!! One thing about art history, I did learn the
tricks
> for memorizing dates and names.
>
> Again, kicking and screaming that I didn't want to take a foreign
> language...  I took yucky poetry instead.  Cried through that class too...
> but used the class... one of my first clients wanted what????  Poetry on
her
> website.  BTW, I now wish that I had taken French.  A lot of my fashion
> books need French translating.
>
> You just never know what life has in store for you.
>
> I can say this from my experience... don't take art history and costume
> history in the same semester.  It can confuse the hell out of you.  Don't
> take tech writing and creative writing in back to back semester.  It
messes
> your mind up.
>
> Lastly, I put more into my time and effort into my costume classes than
any
> other classes.  There is a lot of information to learn.  In one costume
> history class, we started out with 30 something students and ended the
class
> with four.  A lot of people think it will be an easy class.  Its not.  It
> requires a lot of hours of studying a week.  One of my final exams was
five
> hours long.
>
> Penny Ladnier
> Owner, The Costume Gallery & Costume Classroom
> www.costumegallery.com
> www.costumeclassroom.com
>
>
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From: Catherine Olanich Raymond <cathy@thyrsus.com>
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] what's your degree in?
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 21:39:04 -0400
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On Wednesday 06 August 2003 09:52 pm, Sheryl Nance-Durst wrote:
> At 08:27 PM 8/6/03 -0400, you wrote:
> >On Wednesday 06 August 2003 09:02 am, Sheryl Nance-Durst wrote:
> > > My bachelors is in mathematics.
> > > My masters is in library and information science.
> > > Weird combination, I know. :)
> >
> >Not at all.  In fact, compared to some of the combinations people have
> >posted,
> >it makes sense if you wanted a career running an engineering or technical
> >library (though I've no idea how common such jobs are).  :-)

The above comment (beginning with "Not at all") was actually mine.


> Nope. I actually work in a public library as a general reference librarian.
> However, I am married to a computer programmer which seems to be a very
> common occurrence for a costumer!

My husband (who is also a computer programmer) would probably say that's 
because both programmers and costumers tend to gravitate to, and be part of, 
SF fandom, though from what I've seen on this list that's a 
oversimplification since many of the costumers on this list aren't involved 
with science fiction fandom.



-- 
Cathy Raymond <cathy@thyrsus.com>

“No man is rich enough to buy back his 
past.”  Oscar Wilde

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Subject: [h-cost] Blackwork distribution - thanks!
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Allison,
The portrait of 'The Man in Red' that hangs in Hampton Court shows him
in a shirt w/ blackworked collar band as well as a blackwork strip down
the front on either side of the front opening.  There is a b&w copy of
this picture in Ashelford's A Visual History of Costume: The 16th
Century.  From the rest of his attire I would definately date him mid
16th C.

Also, I love this site for looking at blackwork in portraits.  There
might be some help here:
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Crete/1581/bwgallery/

And your work is beautiful Kirrily :)!

Catherine

	- It is in the Ashelford book - fig. 45, and the caption dates it to 1540s.
There are also some interesting links off of the site above, particularly
one called "The Musicians"
(http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Crete/1581/bwgallery/bl129.htm, lady on the
left).

	- Also


What about this one:
http://www.nga.gov/cgi-bin/pimage?374+0+0
http://www.nga.gov/cgi-bin/pimage?374+0+1

(Portrait of a Lady in White by da Brescia c. 1540)
She has something sheer on over it, but she does have on a shirt that's
blackworked at collar and in stripes--it's unfastened and the slash is
pulled open.  Of course, being Italian it may have a different type of
collar than the ones you've been citing.

There's also
http://www.nga.gov/cgi-bin/pimage?47+0+0
http://www.nga.gov/cgi-bin/pimage?47+0+1

(Portrait of a Lady by Luini c. 1520-25)
Again Italian and wearing something sheer overtop.  This one might be
too early for you.

Best of luck,
Melanie Schuessler
http://www.faucet.net/costume

	- Thank you for these! Lazy me, I LIVE in the DC area and so of course I
started my web search by scouring the Met in NYC!! I should try and get down
there at some point now that I have a "target" that I want to focus on!

	- Going to continue looking through my books as well. Thank you all!

	- Allison T.

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From: Catherine Olanich Raymond <cathy@thyrsus.com>
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Book review wanted
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On Tuesday 12 August 2003 01:02 pm, LLWatts@aol.com wrote:
> Just got a closeout catalog from The Scholar's Bookshelf, and one of the
> books included is "Ancient Egyptian, Mesopotamian, and Persian Costume" by
> Mary G. Houston.  It sounds interesting from the blurb, but then it's
> supposed to :) .  Anyone know if this book is worth getting?

I have a copy (not of the Dover reprint, but of one of the old hardcover 
edition, which cost me more), and I can at least give you my opinion, for 
what it's worth.

If you are familiar with Ms. Houston's work "English Costume in the 13th, 14th 
and 15th Centuries," you already have some idea whether the Ancient Egyptian, 
Mesopotamian, and Persian book is worth it.  Both books, in my opinion, have 
the same attributes and the same advantages and disadvantages, namely:

DISADVANTAGES:  
1)  All of the illustrations are black and white redrawings of original period 
artworks.
2)  The author likes to give her personal theories of the construction/reasons 
for particular fashions, which seem to have no basis other than her own 
esthetics/judgment.

ADVANTAGES:
1) Houston usually identifies the sources she's redrawn from (though the 
attributes tend to be buried in the text);
2) The redrawings are clear and, so far as I can tell, usually faithful to the 
originals.  
3) Because of 1 and 2, it's usually possible to make a meaningful judgment 
about how far you're willing to trust the text;
4) When Houston is merely giving a physical description of an item, she often 
makes a lot of sense and can be very enlightening.

Houston also gives, in some instances, proposed diagrams for draping and 
cutting particular costumes.  I've tried one of them and I have mixed 
opinions about her judgment on the one I tried, but I may have used too thick 
a cloth for the attempt.  At any rate, experimenting with her diagrams may be 
enlightening as well.

Finally, Houston is one of the few authors I know of who attempts to cover 
Mesopotamian and Persian costume in anything resembling depth, and she gives 
more coverage to Egyptian than most other books.  

I paid about USD $40 for my copy a few years ago, and have never regretted it.  
At Dover's usual prices (esp. if Scholar's Bookshop is giving a discount), I 
think it's worth getting a copy.  But that may depend on your level of 
interest in the subject and your budget.

-- 
Cathy Raymond <cathy@thyrsus.com>

“No man is rich enough to buy back his 
past.”  Oscar Wilde

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Subject: Re: [h-cost] what's your degree in?
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At 08:52 PM 08/06/2003 -0500, Sheryl Nance-Durst wrote:

>>Actually, I've been having a bit of an inferiority complex here--my degrees
>>seem so staid and mundane, compared to the marvelous combinations being
>>displayed by other members of the list.
>
>My favorites so far have been the law degree, the physics and the chemistry.

I think we have and MD or two lurking around here, as well.  

As for me, well, I'm the proud holder of a high school equivanlency
certificate..And I've done all right for myself in costuming.

Margo

"One Tough Costumer"

www.margospatterns.com
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From: "Genie" <kerowyn@mindspring.com>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
References: 
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] what's your degree in?
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 21:37:30 -0500
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Status: RO

And Penny,

I just received your posting for Ragtime from 7/30/03

Genie
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Penny Ladnier" <penny@costumegallery.com>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2003 7:29 PM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] what's your degree in?


> Hmmm.... how did this message go through the list again??????  I sent this
> one a while back and it did show up on the list then.
>
> Penny Ladnier
> Owner, The Costume Gallery & Costume Classroom
> www.costumegallery.com
> www.costumeclassroom.com
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Penny Ladnier" <penny@costumegallery.com>
> To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2003 7:01 PM
> Subject: Re: [h-cost] what's your degree in?
>
>
> > Colleen,
> >
> > I can understand but sometimes being told that you HAVE to take a class,
> can
> > open new doors.  Believe it or not, I didn't want to take computer
> classes.
> > I went in kicking and screaming.  And my first class was not a nice
one...
> > MS DOS.  I came home every night and cried (and got a stiff drink.)  I
> made
> > it through the class, and HAD to take two more computer classes.  Well,
I
> > fell in love with those classes... and took six more.
> >
> > I went in kicking and screaming after taking art history... I took one
> > semester of seeing how many slides you can memorize.  I talked to my
> > professors and they substituted costume history and film history classes
> for
> > art history.  YIPPEE!!!! One thing about art history, I did learn the
> tricks
> > for memorizing dates and names.
> >
> > Again, kicking and screaming that I didn't want to take a foreign
> > language...  I took yucky poetry instead.  Cried through that class
too...
> > but used the class... one of my first clients wanted what????  Poetry on
> her
> > website.  BTW, I now wish that I had taken French.  A lot of my fashion
> > books need French translating.
> >
> > You just never know what life has in store for you.
> >
> > I can say this from my experience... don't take art history and costume
> > history in the same semester.  It can confuse the hell out of you.
Don't
> > take tech writing and creative writing in back to back semester.  It
> messes
> > your mind up.
> >
> > Lastly, I put more into my time and effort into my costume classes than
> any
> > other classes.  There is a lot of information to learn.  In one costume
> > history class, we started out with 30 something students and ended the
> class
> > with four.  A lot of people think it will be an easy class.  Its not.
It
> > requires a lot of hours of studying a week.  One of my final exams was
> five
> > hours long.
> >
> > Penny Ladnier
> > Owner, The Costume Gallery & Costume Classroom
> > www.costumegallery.com
> > www.costumeclassroom.com
> >
> >
> > [This E-mail was scanned for viruses by Plugit.com Virus Scanners
> (http://www.plugit.com)]
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > h-costume mailing list
> > h-costume@mail.indra.com
> > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
> > [This E-mail was scanned for viruses by Plugit.com Virus Scanners
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> >
> >
>
>
> [This E-mail was scanned for viruses by Plugit.com Virus Scanners
(http://www.plugit.com)]
>
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume


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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Tue Aug 12 23:06:34 2003
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From: "Five Rivers" <info@5rivers.org>
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Subject: [h-cost] Re: Applique documentation?
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Melanie wrote:

> I think that slippage is MUCH more of a problem when doing applique by
> machine than when doing it by hand.  [snip] I'm sure, Lorina, that your
applique was all done by hand, > whereas the vast majority of folks would do
it by machine.

    Ooops! <grin> Caught me there! Yes, you are of course correct, Melanie,
I do all my applique by hand. It never occurred to me a sewing machine might
be used. Now that is pathetically funny when you stop and think about it.
And of course there would be a whole different set of problems working on a
machine. Shudder. I couldn't begin to imagine using the machine on some of
the applique embroidery I've done. Machines are for modern wear. <laughing>

Regards
Lorina
Five Rivers Chapmanry ~ purveyors of quality hand-crafted cooperage
fine hand-sewn embroidered garments, historical sewing patterns & embroidery
supplies
(519) 799-5577, fax (519) 799-5418 http://www.5rivers.org  email:
info@5rivers.org

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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Tue Aug 12 23:07:05 2003
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Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 22:08:51 -0500
From: "Linda J. Thompson" <LindaJThompson@comcast.net>
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Subject: [h-cost] Dirndyl costume question
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Status: RO

Hi all,
I have been a very busy bee... missed a bunch of list postings.
I have a question... I have been asked to make an outfit for someone that is going to be 
in Hello Dolly.  She wants a Dirndl.... she sent me this URL
http://www.geocities.com/dirndl2.geo/d01504.gif
and asked me to make a costume similar to the one on the right.

We are making a boned bodice with stays and stuff.. (she needs the extra support).. my 
question is..She wants this to close in the front... Has anyone out there made a bodice in 
this manner before:
   I am thinking what I need to do is create the bodice so it has an inner panel that 
laces in the front (fully boned)in a underlayment type of thing.  Then create a plastron 
that would hook/velcro or something across the actual bodice closure and then have the 
front sides of the bodice overlap the sides of the plastron, and lace across the plastron.

She does not want a corset and seperate bodice.  Its for theatre and she needs less items 
to dress in.

So what ya think?
-- 
Linda Thompson

Attitude Is Everything
http://corsetsandcostumes.com


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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Wed Aug 13 01:20:33 2003
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Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 21:39:15 -0700
From: Kimiko Small <kimiko@kimiko1.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Dirndyl costume question
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Status: RO

Hi Linda,

I just started back into my emails, and yours caught my eye.

At 10:08 PM 8/12/2003 -0500, you wrote:
>Hi all,
>I have been a very busy bee... missed a bunch of list postings.
>I have a question... I have been asked to make an outfit for someone that 
>is going to be in Hello Dolly.  She wants a Dirndl.... she sent me this URL
>http://www.geocities.com/dirndl2.geo/d01504.gif
>and asked me to make a costume similar to the one on the right.

Hmmm... first thought was have you looked at Folkwear patterns? They used 
to have an Austrian Dirndle pattern, although I am not sure if they still 
sell the item.

>We are making a boned bodice with stays and stuff.. (she needs the extra 
>support).. my question is..She wants this to close in the front... Has 
>anyone out there made a bodice in this manner before:

Yes, I have made one from a separate corset under a laced over bodice which 
was sewn to the skirt. And I have made a separate bodice with the under 
placket that had lacings over the placket. Both worked well for what I wore 
them for. ren faires and country dancing.

>   I am thinking what I need to do is create the bodice so it has an inner 
> panel that laces in the front (fully boned)in a underlayment type of 
> thing.  Then create a plastron that would hook/velcro or something across 
> the actual bodice closure and then have the front sides of the bodice 
> overlap the sides of the plastron, and lace across the plastron.

>She does not want a corset and seperate bodice.  Its for theatre and she 
>needs less items to dress in.
>
>So what ya think?


If I am understanding this right, why the extra work? Would you not have 
two layers of laced in items that would add extra bulk? If this is theatre, 
you could either
1. Put in a zipper to the structure under the plastron, instead of the 
first lacing. I have seen this done many times and it makes for easy 
removal of the bodice. Has a little less bulk, and removes faster than 
lacings. Besides it won't be seen.
2. Forget the under/inner panel and create the plastron as a fully boned 
item made wider than the opening, then sewn in on one side to the garment 
under the overlapping sides,  and maybe (if needed) hook or velcro or zip 
along the other side. The lacing then holds the plastron in place, and can 
support the body fairly well. I have made mine without the extra hooks, and 
the front plastron held my ample bosom in place. However, I still preferred 
the corset covered with a plastron for full support.

My question is... how much movement is required for her in this garment in 
theatre? Is she having to dance or bounce a lot, or just basic stage 
movement? That I think would affect how much extra under support you have 
to put into the
bodice. For my experience, I used to do country dancing in my costumes, and 
had no problems with the bodices I made.

Good luck, and let us know what you tried and how it worked out.

>--
>Linda Thompson
>
>Attitude Is Everything
>http://corsetsandcostumes.com


Kimiko



Kimiko Small
Costumer, Fiber Artist, Web Designer, Wife and Mother
kimiko@kimiko1.com; http://www.kimiko1.com
"When there is fear, there is no creativity" ~ C. Lowell

Graphic Intern at Costume Gallery
http://www.costumegallery.com

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Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 21:50:57 -0700
From: Kimiko Small <kimiko@kimiko1.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: Applique documentation?
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I missed the original question, so excuse me if the following has already 
been mentioned.

Janet Arnold in _Patterns of Fashion_, 1560-1620, on page 111, in 
describing the black velvet loose gown (45B), talks of the applique of 
black satin that is applied. She states: "The gown is embroidered with 
applied black satin motifs and couched black cords. Each motif is glued to 
a piece of paper to prevent fraying, cut out and mounted on the velvet, 
then outlined with black cord."

I am not sure from where specifically she knows this info on how it was 
originally done, but I followed it to do a similar applique motif on my 
version of the loose gown. However, using modern methods as I am allowed to 
do, I used Steam a Seam 2, instead of paper and glue. And as I was running 
out of time, I worked it on a modern machine. Someday I will do this one 
again and just do the applique as handwork, but it suffices for now.

hth for whatever it is worth.

Kimiko


Kimiko Small
Costumer, Fiber Artist, Web Designer, Wife and Mother
kimiko@kimiko1.com; http://www.kimiko1.com
"When there is fear, there is no creativity" ~ C. Lowell

Graphic Intern at Costume Gallery
http://www.costumegallery.com

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From: "Saragrace T. Knauf" <saragrace@earthlink.net>
To: "'Historical Costume'" <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: RE: [h-cost] Dirndyl costume question
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 22:15:21 -0700
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What you are describing makes sense.  I think you will have more responses
if you join and post your question to the Yahoo German Ren Costume
group...they make these things all the time.  There are a number of
ingenious approaches that people use.  But what you are describing is
similar to the conjectured bodices of the tudor era where the lacing takes
place underneath and the top is pinned over to one side...even more like the
Thomas Moore family painting (originally by Lockely).  You can check that
out here:
http://homepage.mac.com/festive_attyre/research/images/morefam.gif

Depending on her size, she may or may not get the look she is after without
correct underpinnings.  If you have access to a Jean Hunnisett book you
might want her to read about how theater people too need correct
underpinnings...:)  Sewing for actors is SO much fun no?

Is she directing the play as well as acting in it?  Interesting that she is
dictating her costume...the picture you point to looks like a pattern
front...is it?



-----Original Message-----
From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com] On
Behalf Of Linda J. Thompson
Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2003 8:09 PM
To: h-costume@indra.com
Subject: [h-cost] Dirndyl costume question


Hi all,
I have been a very busy bee... missed a bunch of list postings. I have a
question... I have been asked to make an outfit for someone that is going to
be 
in Hello Dolly.  She wants a Dirndl.... she sent me this URL
http://www.geocities.com/dirndl2.geo/d01504.gif
and asked me to make a costume similar to the one on the right.

We are making a boned bodice with stays and stuff.. (she needs the extra
support).. my 
question is..She wants this to close in the front... Has anyone out there
made a bodice in 
this manner before:
   I am thinking what I need to do is create the bodice so it has an inner
panel that 
laces in the front (fully boned)in a underlayment type of thing.  Then
create a plastron 
that would hook/velcro or something across the actual bodice closure and
then have the 
front sides of the bodice overlap the sides of the plastron, and lace across
the plastron.

She does not want a corset and seperate bodice.  Its for theatre and she
needs less items 
to dress in.

So what ya think?
-- 
Linda Thompson

Attitude Is Everything
http://corsetsandcostumes.com


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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Dawn Jacobson <dme_maud@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Dirndyl costume question
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At 10:08 PM 8/12/2003 -0500, you wrote:
>Hi all,
>I have been a very busy bee... missed a bunch of list postings.
>I have a question... I have been asked to make an outfit for someone that 
>is going to be in Hello Dolly.  She wants a Dirndl.... she sent me this URL
>http://www.geocities.com/dirndl2.geo/d01504.gif
>and asked me to make a costume similar to the one on the right.
>
>We are making a boned bodice with stays and stuff.. (she needs the extra 
>support).. my question is..She wants this to close in the front... Has 
>anyone out there made a bodice in this manner before:
>   I am thinking what I need to do is create the bodice so it has an inner 
> panel that laces in the front (fully boned)in a underlayment type of 
> thing.  Then create a plastron that would hook/velcro or something across 
> the actual bodice closure and then have the front sides of the bodice 
> overlap the sides of the plastron, and lace across the plastron.
>
>She does not want a corset and seperate bodice.  Its for theatre and she 
>needs less items to dress in.
>
>So what ya think?

Hi Linda--

Apologies if somebody already answered this, but I've seen this trick used 
and it works really well. Jean Hunnisett gives complete directions in 
"Period Costume for Stage & Screen: Patterns for Women's Dress 1500-1800" 
(pp. 49-53). The instructions are for building an "Early Tudor Dress," but 
you certainly could modify it for the dirndl bodice.

HIH,

Dawn

Dawn Jacobson
Vallejo, CA, USA

Clothes are the costumes we wear every day. 
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My husband (who is also a computer programmer) would probably say that's

because both programmers and costumers tend to gravitate to, and be
part of, 
SF fandom, though from what I've seen on this list that's a 
oversimplification since many of the costumers on this list aren't
involved 
with science fiction fandom.
-- 
Cathy Raymond <cathy@thyrsus.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I think it might be a little more accurate to say many of us are not
involved in SF fandom anymore.  I know it is one of the places I started
stretching my costuming wings.  The ST:WoK radiation suit made for a
roommate who was a rabid Scotty fan comes to mind among other things :).
 Their costumes must have been very poorly made for the show because
when Jimmy Doohan saw it he said he thought it was better done that
his!

I never got into the latex mask part of it however, which seemed to get
big after Star Wars, may have been why I then drifted more full-time
into historic costuming.

Catherine

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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: whats your degree in
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> My husband (who is also a computer programmer) would probably say that's
> because both programmers and costumers tend to gravitate to, and be
> part of, > SF fandom, though from what I've seen on this list that's a
> oversimplification since many of the costumers on this list aren't
> involved with science fiction fandom.

I would suggest that it is because computer programmers and costumers are
use to thinking outside of the box...



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Hi Kimiko,
In answer to your questions..

 >>Hi all,
 >>I have been a very busy bee... missed a bunch of list postings.
 >>I have a question... I have been asked to make an outfit for someone that
 >>is going to be in Hello Dolly.  She wants a Dirndl.... she sent me this URL
 >>http://www.geocities.com/dirndl2.geo/d01504.gif
 >>and asked me to make a costume similar to the one on the right.


 >Hmmm... first thought was have you looked at Folkwear patterns? They used
 >to have an Austrian Dirndle pattern, although I am not sure if they still
 >sell the item.

Yes, they still have the pattern, but it doesn't have the features I am needing. Besides 
this woman is a very short, plus size woman. 56 bust, 42 waist.

 >>We are making a boned bodice with stays and stuff.. (she needs the extra
 >>support).. my question is..She wants this to close in the front... Has
 >>anyone out there made a bodice in this manner before:

 >Yes, I have made one from a separate corset under a laced over bodice which
 >was sewn to the skirt. And I have made a separate bodice with the under
 >placket that had lacings over the placket. Both worked well for what I wore
 >them for. ren faires and country dancing.

Wants seperate skirts..

 >>   I am thinking what I need to do is create the bodice so it has an inner
 >> panel that laces in the front (fully boned)in a underlayment type of
 >> thing.  Then create a plastron that would hook/velcro or something across
 >> the actual bodice closure and then have the front sides of the bodice
 >> overlap the sides of the plastron, and lace across the plastron.


 >>She does not want a corset and seperate bodice.  Its for theatre and she
 >>needs less items to dress in.
::snipped for length::

 >My question is... how much movement is required for her in this garment in
 >theatre? Is she having to dance or bounce a lot, or just basic stage
 >movement? That I think would affect how much extra under support you have
 >to put into the
 >bodice. For my experience, I used to do country dancing in my costumes, and
 >had no problems with the bodices I made.

She is dancing and bouncing around on stage... she needs the full support of a corset and 
adjustability if she loses/gains any weight.  I think she is planning on wearing this for 
legitimate "Octoberfest" activities.. her father is Hungarian...

Your suggestions have been helpful.. sort of opened the door for me to look at other options.

Thanks a bunch.


-- 
Linda Thompson

Attitude Is Everything
http://corsetsandcostumes.com


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From: "Sheridan & Shane" <shooie@sprint.ca>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
References: <3F3A4188.7060300@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: Dirndyl
Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 09:53:23 -0400
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Just in case you were interested, the picture she sent you is from a Burda
pattern. As I recall, they carry a variety of similar patterns to the ones
in the picture.

Sheridan


----- Original Message -----
From: "Linda J. Thompson" <LindaJThompson@comcast.net>
To: <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2003 9:47 AM
Subject: [h-cost] Re: Dirndyl


> Hi Kimiko,
> In answer to your questions..
>
>  >>Hi all,
>  >>I have been a very busy bee... missed a bunch of list postings.
>  >>I have a question... I have been asked to make an outfit for someone
that
>  >>is going to be in Hello Dolly.  She wants a Dirndl.... she sent me this
URL
>  >>http://www.geocities.com/dirndl2.geo/d01504.gif
>  >>and asked me to make a costume similar to the one on the right.
>
>
>  >Hmmm... first thought was have you looked at Folkwear patterns? They
used
>  >to have an Austrian Dirndle pattern, although I am not sure if they
still
>  >sell the item.
>
> Yes, they still have the pattern, but it doesn't have the features I am
needing. Besides
> this woman is a very short, plus size woman. 56 bust, 42 waist.
>
>  >>We are making a boned bodice with stays and stuff.. (she needs the
extra
>  >>support).. my question is..She wants this to close in the front... Has
>  >>anyone out there made a bodice in this manner before:
>
>  >Yes, I have made one from a separate corset under a laced over bodice
which
>  >was sewn to the skirt. And I have made a separate bodice with the under
>  >placket that had lacings over the placket. Both worked well for what I
wore
>  >them for. ren faires and country dancing.
>
> Wants seperate skirts..
>
>  >>   I am thinking what I need to do is create the bodice so it has an
inner
>  >> panel that laces in the front (fully boned)in a underlayment type of
>  >> thing.  Then create a plastron that would hook/velcro or something
across
>  >> the actual bodice closure and then have the front sides of the bodice
>  >> overlap the sides of the plastron, and lace across the plastron.
>
>
>  >>She does not want a corset and seperate bodice.  Its for theatre and
she
>  >>needs less items to dress in.
> ::snipped for length::
>
>  >My question is... how much movement is required for her in this garment
in
>  >theatre? Is she having to dance or bounce a lot, or just basic stage
>  >movement? That I think would affect how much extra under support you
have
>  >to put into the
>  >bodice. For my experience, I used to do country dancing in my costumes,
and
>  >had no problems with the bodices I made.
>
> She is dancing and bouncing around on stage... she needs the full support
of a corset and
> adjustability if she loses/gains any weight.  I think she is planning on
wearing this for
> legitimate "Octoberfest" activities.. her father is Hungarian...
>
> Your suggestions have been helpful.. sort of opened the door for me to
look at other options.
>
> Thanks a bunch.
>
>
> --
> Linda Thompson
>
> Attitude Is Everything
> http://corsetsandcostumes.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume



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Kimiko Small wrote:

> Hi Linda,
>
> I just started back into my emails, and yours caught my eye.
>
> At 10:08 PM 8/12/2003 -0500, you wrote:
>
>> Hi all,
>> I have been a very busy bee... missed a bunch of list postings.
>> I have a question... I have been asked to make an outfit for someone 
>> that is going to be in Hello Dolly.  She wants a Dirndl.... she sent 
>> me this URL
>> http://www.geocities.com/dirndl2.geo/d01504.gif
>> and asked me to make a costume similar to the one on the right.
>
>
> Hmmm... first thought was have you looked at Folkwear patterns? They 
> used to have an Austrian Dirndle pattern, although I am not sure if 
> they still sell the item.
>
Yes, Folkwear has the austrian drindl. It is available in sizes 8 to 16.

liz young


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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Wed Aug 13 11:39:57 2003
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] what's your degree in?
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Margo, 

        I can't believe that you do such authentic and usable work
without at least a master's degree.  Shows have valuable those letters
are after names.  I have been reading but didn't want to post as I only
have an BS in elementary education.  Somehow, I don't think that a formal
education tells it all.  I have learned so much from books, research and
just living since I graduated that I can't tell which was college and
which was life when it comes to what I know most of the time.

        Don't care what your degree is in - you are still my number one
authority on Elizabethan garb.

Lalah
Never give up, Never surrender
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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Wed Aug 13 11:55:06 2003
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This may be of interest to some!     -Carol



Forwarded From: Amy West at Higgins Armory <medievalist@W-STS.COM>

> This workshop at the Higgins Armory Museum in Worcester, MA may be of
> interest to other Museum-L folks who have re-enactors at their museums.
> Please feel free to forward to other lists.
> 
> A Visit from the Royal Armouries: Keith Ducklin
> 
> Saturday, 10/4/2003 9:00 AM-4:00 PM
> - $85 for Museum Members, $100 for non-members
> 
> Stage Combat and Presentation Techniques
> 
> Saturday, October 4th and Sunday, October 5th, am to 4 pm
> 
> Re-enactors and hobbyists alike will benefit from this in-depth workshop
> presented by Senior Interpreter Keith Ducklin of the Royal Armouries at
> Leeds. With over 20 years of acting, interpretation and martial arts
> experience, Keith will guide participants through a series of workshops
> including: body dynamics, combat manual interpretation, developing stage
> presence and script construction. Participants must be 18 or older. Cost is
> $85 for museum members, $100 for non-members. For reservations and
> inquiries please contact Dianne Berg at the Higgins Education Department
> 508-853-6015 ext. 19, or via email at dberg@higgins.org.
> For more information, e-mail dberg@higgins.org or call 508-853-6015
> 
> 
> --- Amy West
> Museum Educator
> Higgins Armory Museum
> 100 Barber Ave.
> Worcester, MA 01606
> 
> medievalist@w-sts.com
> 
> =========================================================
> Important Subscriber Information:
> 
> The Museum-L FAQ file is located at http://www.finalchapter.com/museum-l-faq/ . You may obtain detailed information about the listserv commands by sending a one line e-mail message to listserv@home.ease.lsoft.com . The body of the message should read "help" (without the quotes).
> 
> If you decide to leave Museum-L, please send a one line e-mail message to listserv@home.ease.lsoft.com . The body of the message should read "Signoff Museum-L" (without the quotes).


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Oops!  Sorry about the size, I didn't think to reduce it.  I've put new 
versions up now, hopefully that will fix Glenda's problem too.

Yes, I find it really useful to see the shape of pattern pieces. 
Learning how 2-D relates to 3-D is one of the most important things in 
being able to recreate a garment from a picture.  This book has taught 
me all I know about sleeves, and it's helped with other pieces, where 
fullness is added and taken away.

Not sure what you mean about the link - I was having trouble with the 
index pages, so I typed in the link instead of copying and pasting.  Did 
it come up differently on your email?  I didn't want to mess around 
putting the two pages into one image, so I did a covering page to hold 
both of them.

Jean


Saragrace knauf <saragrace@earthlink.net> wrote
>Yes that helps me a lot!  I have to admit I am pretty proud of myself
>because I was pretty close...
>I had not put the squared off part as part of the sleeve and had not
>curved the sleeve arm seam (but I was thinking that would help get the
>sleeve smaller up by the arm pit....)  I am still going to work hard at
>refining it, but I don't think folks in the class are as interested in
>the refinements as I am....
>
>Your pictures also gave me another idea...when asking questions (or for
>help)  about construction it would help for me to put pictures of my
>pattern pieces up before they are put together...it really helps to see
>the pattern pieces.
>
>Thank you sOOOOOOO much.  That was an interesting way to put a link in a
>letter or page..why did you do it like that?  Is there a reason you
>don't just paste the link in the email?  (I am learning about webpages
>etc as well, hence my questions)
>
>Also, did you realize your resolution was so high?  That second jpg was
>8 meg!  My broadband is down today...I was using my poor little dial up!
>WOWZA!
>
>Thank you so much again...
>
>
>Sg
>
>_______________________________________________
>h-costume mailing list
>h-costume@mail.indra.com
>http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

-- 
Jean Waddie
_______________________________________________
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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Wed Aug 13 14:17:15 2003
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 <000001c35f97$2bbb4720$1dcb3040@laptop>
 <tS7dyPAoknO$IwZt@montgomerie.demon.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 11:19:28 -0700
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Lynn Downward <LDownward@chori.org>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Constructive criticism needed
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I had the same problem and so deleted the links.  Would you please 
resend the links to those of us without foresight?

Thanks,
LynnD

>Oops!  Sorry about the size, I didn't think to reduce it.  I've put 
>new versions up now, hopefully that will fix Glenda's problem too.
>
>Yes, I find it really useful to see the shape of pattern pieces. 
>Learning how 2-D relates to 3-D is one of the most important things 
>in being able to recreate a garment from a picture.  This book has 
>taught me all I know about sleeves, and it's helped with other 
>pieces, where fullness is added and taken away.
>
>Not sure what you mean about the link - I was having trouble with 
>the index pages, so I typed in the link instead of copying and 
>pasting.  Did it come up differently on your email?  I didn't want 
>to mess around putting the two pages into one image, so I did a 
>covering page to hold both of them.
>
>Jean
>
>
>Saragrace knauf <saragrace@earthlink.net> wrote
>>Yes that helps me a lot!  I have to admit I am pretty proud of myself
>>because I was pretty close...
>>I had not put the squared off part as part of the sleeve and had not
>>curved the sleeve arm seam (but I was thinking that would help get the
>>sleeve smaller up by the arm pit....)  I am still going to work hard at
>>refining it, but I don't think folks in the class are as interested in
>>the refinements as I am....
>>
>>Your pictures also gave me another idea...when asking questions (or for
>>help)  about construction it would help for me to put pictures of my
>>pattern pieces up before they are put together...it really helps to see
>>the pattern pieces.
>>
>>Thank you sOOOOOOO much.  That was an interesting way to put a link in a
>>letter or page..why did you do it like that?  Is there a reason you
>>don't just paste the link in the email?  (I am learning about webpages
>>etc as well, hence my questions)
>>
>>Also, did you realize your resolution was so high?  That second jpg was
>>8 meg!  My broadband is down today...I was using my poor little dial up!
>>WOWZA!
>>
>>Thank you so much again...
>>
>>
>>Sg
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>h-costume mailing list
>>h-costume@mail.indra.com
>>http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
>
>--
>Jean Waddie
>_______________________________________________
>h-costume mailing list
>h-costume@mail.indra.com
>http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume


-- 
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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Wed Aug 13 14:35:46 2003
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From: "Saragrace T. Knauf" <saragrace@earthlink.net>
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cc: anne@montgomerie.demon.co.uk
Subject: [h-cost] Constructive criticism needed-links and note to Jean
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Here are the links for others....

First page  http://www.montgomerie.demon.co.uk/Personal/Costume/Foster1.jpg

Second page http://www.montgomerie.demon.co.uk/Personal/Costume/Foster2.jpg

Jean, what I was trying to understand is why you 'hid' (for lack of a better
word) the links behind the words "First Page" & "Second Page" as opposed to
just pasting the link itself and you placed them in a separate document
posted (as opposed to just dumping them in the email itself like I just did)
on your webstie...but I think you alluded that you were having difficulty?

No problem, I was just wondering if I was missing something like a security
issue or browser problem that others might have (like those who use AOL)
that you were trying to alleviate.

BTW if you haven't looked at the Flemish Garb group postings lately you
should..Michaela has posted som patterns and artwork to support a very
interesting approach to the sleeve issue....

Sg



-----Original Message-----
From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com] On
Behalf Of Jean Waddie
Sent: Sunday, August 10, 2003 12:08 PM
To: Historical Costume
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Constructive criticism needed


Well, I think I've done it.  Try
http://www.montgomerie.demon.co.uk/Personal/Costume/Squarearmhole.doc

Hope it helps,

Jean


Saragrace knauf <saragrace@earthlink.net> wrote
>Jean, I would be very indebted to you.  Thanks very much!
>
>Sg
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com]
>On Behalf Of Jean Waddie
>Sent: Friday, August 08, 2003 2:34 PM
>To: Historical Costume
>Cc: Flemish_Garb@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: Re: [h-cost] Constructive criticism needed
>
>
>Saragrace,
>
>The bit about the sleeve being squared off rang a bell with me.  I had 
>been looking recently in the wonderful book my mother gave me on 
>drafting and adapting patterns, which I use particularly for sleeves 
>("Creating fashion" by Betty Foster, 1983).  It has a wing sleeve with 
>deep armhole which comes down to a right angle and straight line across 
>the bottom of the armhole.  I've never seen such a seam on an actual 
>garment, all the batwing sleeves I remember were raglan, or cut as a 
>single piece with the bodice.  But it might give you a clue to doing a 
>tighter version of the same thing.
>
>I will attempt to scan and post the diagrams at the weekend, if I can 
>work the technology.
>
>Jean
>

-- 
Jean Waddie
_______________________________________________
h-costume mailing list
h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume


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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Wed Aug 13 14:43:49 2003
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Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 11:46:08 -0700
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Lynn Downward <LDownward@chori.org>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Constructive criticism needed-links and note to Jean
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Thank you for sending the links; now I can open it.
LynnD

>Here are the links for others....
>
>First page  http://www.montgomerie.demon.co.uk/Personal/Costume/Foster1.jpg
>
>Second page http://www.montgomerie.demon.co.uk/Personal/Costume/Foster2.jpg
>
>Jean, what I was trying to understand is why you 'hid' (for lack of a better
>word) the links behind the words "First Page" & "Second Page" as opposed to
>just pasting the link itself and you placed them in a separate document
>posted (as opposed to just dumping them in the email itself like I just did)
>on your webstie...but I think you alluded that you were having difficulty?
>
>No problem, I was just wondering if I was missing something like a security
>issue or browser problem that others might have (like those who use AOL)
>that you were trying to alleviate.
>
>BTW if you haven't looked at the Flemish Garb group postings lately you
>should..Michaela has posted som patterns and artwork to support a very
>interesting approach to the sleeve issue....
>
>Sg
>
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com] On
>Behalf Of Jean Waddie
>Sent: Sunday, August 10, 2003 12:08 PM
>To: Historical Costume
>Subject: Re: [h-cost] Constructive criticism needed
>
>
>Well, I think I've done it.  Try
>http://www.montgomerie.demon.co.uk/Personal/Costume/Squarearmhole.doc
>
>Hope it helps,
>
>Jean
>
>
>Saragrace knauf <saragrace@earthlink.net> wrote
>>Jean, I would be very indebted to you.  Thanks very much!
>>
>>Sg
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com]
>>On Behalf Of Jean Waddie
>>Sent: Friday, August 08, 2003 2:34 PM
>>To: Historical Costume
>>Cc: Flemish_Garb@yahoogroups.com
>>Subject: Re: [h-cost] Constructive criticism needed
>>
>>
>>Saragrace,
>>
>>The bit about the sleeve being squared off rang a bell with me.  I had
>>been looking recently in the wonderful book my mother gave me on
>>drafting and adapting patterns, which I use particularly for sleeves
>>("Creating fashion" by Betty Foster, 1983).  It has a wing sleeve with
>>deep armhole which comes down to a right angle and straight line across
>>the bottom of the armhole.  I've never seen such a seam on an actual
>>garment, all the batwing sleeves I remember were raglan, or cut as a
>>single piece with the bodice.  But it might give you a clue to doing a
>>tighter version of the same thing.
>>
>>I will attempt to scan and post the diagrams at the weekend, if I can
>>work the technology.
>>
>>Jean
>>
>
>--
>Jean Waddie
>_______________________________________________
>h-costume mailing list
>h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>h-costume mailing list
>h-costume@mail.indra.com
>http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume


-- 
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From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" <drewscph@post12.tele.dk>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
References: <000e01c35f6e$7fe289e0$9c0b77d8@pavilion>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Thrednedle Strete Site pre-view
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Dear Lisa.
Congratulations with your new site. It looks great!
How wonderfull there is a place where you can buy poking sticks for ruffs
:-)
I think there has ben a wonderfull progress in authentic things to get the
last 10 years, what will it all end up with?

Bjarne





Leif og Bjarne Drews
www.my-drewscostumes.dk

http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lisa Sinervo" <Lisa-list@threadneedlest.com>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Sunday, August 10, 2003 8:37 PM
Subject: [h-cost] Thrednedle Strete Site pre-view


Well, my site has been online and in pre-view mode for a few weeks now but I
haven't mentioned it as there are still things I'd like to add before I
consider website release 1.0 complete.  For anyone who wants to have a peek
the address is www.ThrednedleStrete.com and when it's been tweaked a bit
more and filled in I'll put another announcement out.  You will find now a
downloadable copy of Stubbes - Anatomy of Abuses and quite a few
proclamations relating to the English clothing industry plus some period
buttons and tools.  I'm also working on getting some software set up to
support "shareware" patterns, with downloads, photos and a "review this
pattern" mechanism for anyone who might want to participate.  It's going to
be a fun rather than money making enterprise but set up like a professional
web store. Patterns will be via pdf printouts.  I'll be charging for the
bandwidth to support this, but patterns can be shared with anyone you like.
The designer who contributed the pattern will have an option of requesting
payment if the user finds it useful.  Don't know if any one ever receives
money from shareware stuff, but I'll provide some more details later as I
work out a few procedures.

Cheers,

Lisa Sinervo
Thrednedle Strete Clothiers
www.ThrednedleStrete.com

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Subject: [h-cost] Re: What's your degree in?
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I know you meant your comment to be a positive statement, but I just have to 
be nit-picky here for a minute.  Please forgive...

I really feel that it is a tragedy that our culture is so caught up in the 
idea that you can't be good at your field of interest unless you have a 
degree from a higher learning institution.  It doesn't seem to matter what 
type of experience a person has or if they learned the information in 
question by being resourceful and searching out the knowledge on their own.

In my small mind, the person who searched out the information on their own 
and mastered their field with out paying a small fortune to a pocket gouging 
institution of higher learning should be more highly esteemed then he is.  I 
think it is a real tragedy that we so often think of people who chose not to 
pursue further institutional education as unlearned or ignorant.

Granted, there are many people who chose not to pursue further education at 
all.  This is extremely sad.  I am against this stagnant mindset.  But these 
are not the people I am ranting about.  People such as Margo, who have 
become master craftspersons by their own desire to learn should be heralded 
as wonderful examples of resourcefulness and desire.

I do not mean to sound as if I am putting down people who choose to pursue a 
BA, PhD, etc.  This is a wonderful goal.  However I am putting down the idea 
that this is the only avenue in which a person can become educated.  I feel 
that this is a huge shame and I also think it is hard for many high school 
aged children to understand.

Anyway, I could go on and on.  I don't mean to make this sound inflammatory. 
  I know there are a lot of highly educated people on this list.  I commend 
you for pursuing these educations.  I just want to make the point that 
self-educated people should be thought of as equals.  They should not be 
looked down upon or thought less of for these separate paths taken.

Now, off my little soapbox and back to my regularly scheduled H-costume 
lurking  My apologies for taking this so far OT.  I actually really enjoyed 
reading about how many diverse and interesting people we have here.

:)  jessica

>Message: 8
>Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 23:39:59 -0400
>From: catpurson@juno.com
>Subject: Re: [h-cost] what's your degree in?
>To: h-costume@indra.com
>Message-ID: <20030813.234000.-77555.1.catpurson@juno.com>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
>Margo,
>
>         I can't believe that you do such authentic and usable work
>without at least a master's degree.  Shows have valuable those letters
>are after names.  I have been reading but didn't want to post as I only
>have an BS in elementary education.  Somehow, I don't think that a formal
>education tells it all.  I have learned so much from books, research and
>just living since I graduated that I can't tell which was college and
>which was life when it comes to what I know most of the time.
>
>         Don't care what your degree is in - you are still my number one
>authority on Elizabethan garb.
>
>Lalah
>Never give up, Never surrender

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Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 22:16:57 +0100 (BST)
From: =?iso-8859-1?q?N=20Kipar?= <nicolas_fouquet@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: What's your degree in?
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
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 *big snip*

<hurt rant>

Fine, and now I would like to say something. I am sick and tired of people
telling me that my many many years at Universities mean nothing, because after
all, those letters 'mean nothing at all'. Excuse me? That is as unfair as
saying the opposite! I, and many other peope I know, spent years slaving for
exams and writing paper after paper after thesis, so please do us all a favour
and don't turn the whole thing around and now look upon US as if we were
'nothing'. That is not fair, as unfair in fact as saying just because someone
hasn't studied properly at Universities their knowledge isn't worth anything or
they are not a scholar.

So, please, let's play nice and have tolerance for ALL of us, or I'd just get
really hurt, because yes, this DID hurt me.

</hurt rant>

Thanks, I needed to say that.

Nicole


=====
One of the Three Baroque Lurve Goddess    
http://www.kipar.org/temp/baroque-lurve-goddesses.jpg

Email: nicole@kipar.org
URL: http://www.kipar.org

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From: Drea Leed <drea@nospam>
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: What's your degree in?
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Um...sounded to me like Jessica was not saying that a university degree
means nothing, but rather was saying that not having a university degree
didn't necessarily make someone less qualified.

Drea

On Wed, 13 Aug 2003, [iso-8859-1] N Kipar wrote:

>  *big snip*
>
> <hurt rant>
>
> Fine, and now I would like to say something. I am sick and tired of people
> telling me that my many many years at Universities mean nothing, because after
> all, those letters 'mean nothing at all'. Excuse me? That is as unfair as
> saying the opposite! I, and many other peope I know, spent years slaving for
> exams and writing paper after paper after thesis, so please do us all a favour
> and don't turn the whole thing around and now look upon US as if we were
> 'nothing'. That is not fair, as unfair in fact as saying just because someone
> hasn't studied properly at Universities their knowledge isn't worth anything or
> they are not a scholar.
>
> So, please, let's play nice and have tolerance for ALL of us, or I'd just get
> really hurt, because yes, this DID hurt me.
>
> </hurt rant>
>
> Thanks, I needed to say that.
>
> Nicole
>
>
> =====
> One of the Three Baroque Lurve Goddess
> http://www.kipar.org/temp/baroque-lurve-goddesses.jpg
>
> Email: nicole@kipar.org
> URL: http://www.kipar.org
>
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Subject: [h-cost] 
	Very cool pics on Flemish Garb Group-was constructive criticism
	needed
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Hi all, I just wanted to let you know that Michaela has posted some very
cool pictures in the files secition on a sleeve construction for the
Breughel outter gowns...I now will go back and modify my mockups....if you
are interested and missed my earlier post (I know many of you were at
Pennsic) the group is now open to the public....
 
Sg
 
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Flemish_Garb/files/square%20sleeve%20heads/
 
I am not sure if you have to join the group to view the files....since it is
an open group which requires no moderator approval.
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] what's your degree in?
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At 09:39 PM 8/12/03 -0400, Cathy wrote:
>My husband (who is also a computer programmer) would probably say that's
>because both programmers and costumers tend to gravitate to, and be part of,
>SF fandom, though from what I've seen on this list that's a
>oversimplification since many of the costumers on this list aren't involved
>with science fiction fandom.

I hadn't thought about that aspect. It's very possible that's at least a
contributing factor. A number of programmers that I know also work
at the local Renaissance festival (with LOTS of costumes) because they
were drawn into the "role-playing" aspect after getting started in
Dungeons & Dragons.

Sheryl N-D

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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] what's your degree in?
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At 07:23 PM 8/12/03 -0700, Margo wrote:

>As for me, well, I'm the proud holder of a high school equivanlency
>certificate..And I've done all right for myself in costuming.

She's done *all right* she says!
I'd say it's a great bit more than *all right*. <grin>
I'd respect you highly even if all I knew about you was the
fact that you created those Renaissance patterns.

I hope one day that I can do *all right* in costuming, too.....
;-)

Sheryl N-D

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In a message dated 8/13/2003 6:03:13 PM Central Standard Time, 
sherylnd@kc.rr.com writes:

> I hadn't thought about that aspect. It's very possible that's at least a
> contributing factor. A number of programmers that I know also work
> at the local Renaissance festival (with LOTS of costumes) because they
> were drawn into the "role-playing" aspect after getting started in
> Dungeons &Dragons

Heh. D&D got me into costuming (my old DM and his wife were in the SCA). And 
since I like to do things really backwards...*now* I'm going back to school to 
major in computer technology...

My Geek Evolution is almost complete...muahahaha

-Sarra Wryght
<A HREF="www.sixteenthcenturystitchery.com">www.sixteenthcenturystitchery.com</A>  (Elizabethan Dress Diaries, etc)
Live Journal: http://www.livejournal.com/users/loreleisedai/
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From: Catherine Olanich Raymond <cathy@thyrsus.com>
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] what's your degree in?
Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 21:28:29 -0400
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On Wednesday 13 August 2003 07:09 pm, Sheryl Nance-Durst wrote:
> At 09:39 PM 8/12/03 -0400, Cathy wrote:
> >My husband (who is also a computer programmer) would probably say that's
> >because both programmers and costumers tend to gravitate to, and be part
> > of, SF fandom, though from what I've seen on this list that's a
> >oversimplification since many of the costumers on this list aren't
> > involved with science fiction fandom.
>
> I hadn't thought about that aspect. It's very possible that's at least a
> contributing factor. A number of programmers that I know also work
> at the local Renaissance festival (with LOTS of costumes) because they
> were drawn into the "role-playing" aspect after getting started in
> Dungeons & Dragons.

That's interesting.  

I played D&D myself, but it didn't inspire me to costume--I was interested in 
costume before I'd ever heard of D&D.

Though I admit live action roleplaying games give me some great excuses to 
make particular costumes....  :-)



-- 
Cathy Raymond <cathy@thyrsus.com>

“No man is rich enough to buy back his 
past.”  Oscar Wilde

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From: Catherine Olanich Raymond <cathy@thyrsus.com>
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: whats your degree in
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On Wednesday 13 August 2003 08:54 am, Cyn Bucheger wrote:
> > My husband (who is also a computer programmer) would probably say that's
> > because both programmers and costumers tend to gravitate to, and be
> > part of, > SF fandom, though from what I've seen on this list that's a
> > oversimplification since many of the costumers on this list aren't
> > involved with science fiction fandom.
>
> I would suggest that it is because computer programmers and costumers are
> use to thinking outside of the box...


Could be.  I like this explanation--and I find it more plausible than 
Catherine Kinsey's suggestion that there are a lot of ex-SF fen on this list.  
While it's clear there are certainly some, I suspect that it's far from a 
majority.


-- 
Cathy Raymond <cathy@thyrsus.com>

“No man is rich enough to buy back his 
past.”  Oscar Wilde

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From: Catherine Olanich Raymond <cathy@thyrsus.com>
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: whats your degree in
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On Wednesday 13 August 2003 09:17 am, Catherine Kinsey wrote:
> I think it might be a little more accurate to say many of us are not
> involved in SF fandom anymore.  I know it is one of the places I started
> stretching my costuming wings.  

As I said to Cyn, I'm sure that's true of a number of list members, but I 
doubt it's a very large number (unless you know something I don't?) :-)

>The ST:WoK radiation suit made for a
> roommate who was a rabid Scotty fan comes to mind among other things :).
>  Their costumes must have been very poorly made for the show because
> when Jimmy Doohan saw it he said he thought it was better done that
> his!

Neat; I wish I had seen it.

>
> I never got into the latex mask part of it however, which seemed to get
> big after Star Wars, may have been why I then drifted more full-time
> into historic costuming.

I've never been big on experimenting with latex or fiberglass (two big 
substances in fannish SF costumes) myself.

Though there's always the "huge fabric wings and gemmed gowns" school of 
fantasy costuming, too.....

-- 
Cathy Raymond <cathy@thyrsus.com>

“No man is rich enough to buy back his 
past.”  Oscar Wilde

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At 11:58 AM -0400 8/12/03, Five Rivers wrote:
>     I think you will find that extant works tend to have a
>predominance of less than slippery fabric. Even sarcenet has a bit of tooth.
>And certainly wool/silk blends have a bit of tooth that is wonderful when
>employing applique. So perhaps it's more a question of choice of fabric from
>an historical perspective than one of technique.
>
>[snip]
>     In all the reproduction and interpretive work I do I use period
>techniques and immerse myself in historic mindset as much as I'm able,
>whether it's an interpretive Celtic piece, opus anglicanum, Elizabethan,
>Baroque or Regency. I have found their techniques, for the most part, work
>extremely well, while I've found using modern 'fixes' and 'helps' often to
>be not only expensive and time consuming, but frustrating because I'm not
>able to achieve that 'lost artifact' look for which I'm searching and try to
>imbue in my pieces.

Thanks -- this is very helpful information! I'll take a different 
approach in my article, then, and say that glue is a more modern 
technique. I understand what you're saying -- my Laurel (SCA 
"mentor") has me well trained to try the period methods first, and as 
you say they very often are easier and faster. Unfortunately applique 
just doesn't seem to be one of my talents, whatever the material -- I 
have trouble making wool on wool come out smooth and unrippled, never 
mind silk. I suppose it's not helped by my tendency to use motifs 
with a lot of curved and bias edges.

If you or anyone has information about whether paper or parchment 
underlay was used, however, I'd like to hear about it. I know such 
support was used behind fabric that was going to be heavily beaded, 
and it seems logical that such a backing would also stiffen and 
stabilize any appliques that were cut from light or very smooth 
fabric. I've used the technique with cotton broadcloth and it helps 
quite a lot. In most cases the motif is simply basted onto the paper 
with edges turned under, and when the applique stitching is done, the 
backing fabric can be slit and the paper removed.

Interestingly, most of the readily available examples of applique 
I've found seem to be examples of _embroidery_ laid onto a background 
cloth, rather than of design being created by the application of 
plain cloth on cloth. There are some good Islamic examples of the 
latter, and a couple of "picture" textiles, but not as much as I 
would have expected. (And the stitching on some of them is incredibly 
sloppy! <g>)
-- 
_________________________________________________________
O    Chris Laning
|     <claning@igc.org>
+    Davis, California
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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Wed Aug 13 23:05:53 2003
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Subject: [h-cost] Re: What's your degree in?
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This is exactly what I was trying to say.

I completely respect the time, energy and effort everyone who holds a degree 
has given towards studying and earning that goal.  I was just trying to make 
that point that we need to give credence to all the people who choose an 
avenue of study and then whole heartedly pursue it... with or with out 
formal education. A goal is a goal is a goal.  A goal of personal education 
is always worthwhile.

I was trying not to make it sound hurtful, I'm sorry if I've offended 
anyone.  I just feel very strongly that we need to give all people who have 
studied hard to become great in their area of interest equal attention.

Now back to costuming...

:) jessica


>
>Um...sounded to me like Jessica was not saying that a university degree
>means nothing, but rather was saying that not having a university degree
>didn't necessarily make someone less qualified.
>
>Drea

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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: whats your degree in
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On Wed, 13 Aug 2003 21:34:00 -0400 Catherine Olanich Raymond
<cathy@thyrsus.com> writes:
> 
> >The ST:WoK radiation suit made for a
> > roommate who was a rabid Scotty fan comes to mind among other 
> things :).  Their costumes must have been very poorly made for the show

> because when Jimmy Doohan saw it he said he thought it was better done 
> that his!
> 
> Neat; I wish I had seen it.
> 

        I can't remember.... oh yeah, I think it was Robert O'Reilly and
J.G. Hertzler liked the look of some Klingon uniforms made by friends of
mine.  And they were at the ST: The Experience and saw one from the
shows... reportedly they wouldn't hold up for a single ep. <chuckle>  And
I've also read that in one of my ST books somewhere, but I can't remember
which one at the moment.

> >
> > I never got into the latex mask part of it however, which seemed 
> to get big after Star Wars, may have been why I then drifted more 
> full-time into historic costuming.
> 
> I've never been big on experimenting with latex or fiberglass (two 
> big substances in fannish SF costumes) myself.
> 

        For what I've seen, in my area, I haven't seen alot of
fiberglass, though I HAVE seen alot of vac-u-form stuff.  I do quite a
bit of latex work, making ridges... that reminds me, I also need to
finish up demon horns for my youngest daughter... and once you have the
mold for the latex, it's a piece of cake.  But if every one has to be
different, it can be QUITE time consuming, though it actually is quite
easy.  The sites below have pictures of my work.
        And since the subj is "what's your degree in"... no degree...
just the school of hard knocks, which has made making Halloween costumes
for the kids a creative process when you want something but don't have
the money for materials.  I started sewing for the kids about 10 years
ago, but hadn't touched a machine for about 15 years prior to that.

Astrid
Never argue with a dragon, for thou art crunchy and go well with Brie.
    http://www.geocities.com/astridofthehorde - costumes I've made
    http://www.geocities.com/house_qul_mupwi - The noble Klingon House
    http://www.geocities.com/klingon_pirates_guild - The Klingon Pirate's
Guild

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From: kat@grendal.rain.com
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] 	Very cool pics on Flemish Garb Group-was constructive
	criticism	needed
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Unfortunately, you do have to join the yahoo group. Oh, well.

> Hi all, I just wanted to let you know that Michaela has posted some
> very cool pictures in the files secition on a sleeve construction for
> the Breughel outter gowns...I now will go back and modify my
> mockups....if you are interested and missed my earlier post (I know
> many of you were at Pennsic) the group is now open to the public....
> 
> Sg
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Flemish_Garb/files/square%20sleeve%20hea
> ds/
> 
> I am not sure if you have to join the group to view the files....since
> it is an open group which requires no moderator approval.

Kat
<kat@redtrollforge.com>


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> If you or anyone has information about whether paper or parchment
> underlay was used, however, I'd like to hear about it. I know such
> support was used behind fabric that was going to be heavily beaded,
> and it seems logical that such a backing would also stiffen and
> stabilize any appliques that were cut from light or very smooth
> fabric. I've used the technique with cotton broadcloth and it helps
> quite a lot. In most cases the motif is simply basted onto the paper
> with edges turned under, and when the applique stitching is done, the
> backing fabric can be slit and the paper removed.

You might want to write to the Royal Needlework School. They do a lot 
of conservation work on textiles/embroidery and might be able to give 
you more dates. (Since most embroidery books tell how it is done 
modernly but show only pictures of embroidery/applique without saying 
how it was done *then.*)
 
> Interestingly, most of the readily available examples of applique I've
> found seem to be examples of _embroidery_ laid onto a background
> cloth, rather than of design being created by the application of plain
> cloth on cloth. There are some good Islamic examples of the latter,
> and a couple of "picture" textiles, but not as much as I would have
> expected. (And the stitching on some of them is incredibly sloppy!
> <g>) -- 

I have an extant piece of c.11th C Byzantine textile. The thing I 
like about it is that it has both woven-in designs as well as 
appliqued work on it. The applique appears to be a cut out from a 
previous woven piece which was then just turned under and stitched 
down. (And the stitching isn't particularly wonderful, but then it's 
not a museum quality piece either. Probably a "dish towel" as Mark 
always calls these pieces.)

Kat
<kat@redtrollforge.com>


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Lynn and Saragrace,

I knew I had seen that method, someplace in one of my books... You saved me time digging 
through things tonight!  Yay..

And I felt very strongly that the picture had to be a "modern" pattern.. it was just to 
polyester to be anything else.  :D

Thanks again all

Linda Thompson

Attitude Is Everything
http://corsetsandcostumes.com


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Could be.  I like this explanation--and I find it more plausible than 
Catherine Kinsey's suggestion that there are a lot of ex-SF fen on this
list.  
While it's clear there are certainly some, I suspect that it's far from
a 
majority.
-- 
Cathy Raymond <cathy@thyrsus.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

well, not to quibble, but I guess I don't consider many to be a
majority.  And I realized I tend to lump fantasy & SF together so in my
head I was thinking a broader pool of candidates.

I was definately interested in costuming before my involvement with
F/SF, and renfaires.  Being able to sew got me tapped by a lot of my
friends to make them costumes for these activities which, while I
learned a lot in the process, would not always have been my first choice
for a particular project.  I"m starting to get stubborn in my old age,
but still haven't learned to say 'no' enough to keep time for the
projects I really want to do, like that flemish garb for which the linen
and wool has been setting on the shelf for a year......

Catherine


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I happen to be a historical costumer and a SF/fantasy fan, but I think
it's coincidence in my case, since I was never really involved in Cons
or RenFaires or anything of an organized sort in either area before I
joined the SCA, which is when I started going whole hog with the
historical costuming.
I've sewn or embroidered or worked with my hands since before I learned
to read, and then when I discovered books, I read *everything* and very,
very early on picked up a love of historical stuff and fantasy, myths,
and what I now call "speculative fiction," meaning anything from the
Brothers Grimm to Charles de Lint to William Gibson.....
It was only when I discovered my local SCA group that the two threads
kinda merged for me--the folks who'd started my local group were largely
SF fen, so in the early years there was a fair overlap.
I adore the amazing costumes and fantasy stuff I've seen folks do
(Teddy's Tanu costume comes immediately to mind), but never felt the
urge to do it myself.  Now, give me (on the other hand) a few sheep, the
right weeds, the right tools, and a few years to get my act together,
and I *will* have my own hand-made 12th c. gown! <g>
--sue, taking a break from packing....

Catherine Kinsey wrote:
> 

> well, not to quibble, but I guess I don't consider many to be a
> majority.  And I realized I tend to lump fantasy & SF together so in my
> head I was thinking a broader pool of candidates.
> 
> I was definately interested in costuming before my involvement with
> F/SF, and renfaires.  Being able to sew got me tapped by a lot of my
> friends to make them costumes for these activities which, while I
> learned a lot in the process, would not always have been my first choice
> for a particular project.  I"m starting to get stubborn in my old age,
> but still haven't learned to say 'no' enough to keep time for the
> projects I really want to do, like that flemish garb for which the linen
> and wool has been setting on the shelf for a year......
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Or is it just quiet...am I the only one that writes about it?  I must get a
life!
 
Sg
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Quiet, I think.
My life is pretty chaotic right now, or I'd probably be posting.
Maybe we should start a new thread....
hmmm.....
hmmmm.......
Okay, everybody....
If y'all had the chance to make one "perfect outfit," and had up to 2
years to complete it, what would you make, and why? This can be a
special costume, or garb, or a very special dress.
Since this is a moderately-priced fantasy <g>, we'll assume that we all
get the basic fabrics and doodads and whatnots that we need, without
blowing our entire theoretical budgets on that hand-made 100% silk
velvet that I'm sure some of us drool over in our crazy moments....
--sue

"Saragrace T. Knauf" wrote:
> 
> Or is it just quiet...am I the only one that writes about it?  I must get a
> life!
> 
> Sg
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From: Kimiko Small <kimiko@kimiko1.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] scots/celtic/fantasy type costume
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Hi Rebecca,

The Scottish women's clothes are hard to find, because they always talk 
about the arasaid, but I haven't found much to describe what they wore 
_under_ the arasaid. But there are fall backs for a Celtic woman's gown.

Try these sites:
http://medievalscotland.org/clothing/project.shtml
http://www.reconstructinghistory.com/irish/shinrone.html
http://www.reconstructinghistory.com/fenians/womensleine.htm

Someday I will get my act together to finish my costuming web site, with 
links like this and pics of the celtic garb I have done as well. But those 
above should give you some good ideas on what is available.

Good luck!

Kimiko

At 09:54 AM 8/15/2003 +0930, you wrote:
>Hi:
>A friend of mine is having a wedding in about 6 weeks, with a celtic
>(dominantly scottish I think) theme. I've looked around to find national
>costumes, medieval dress in Scotland, etc., and discovered that info on what
>women wore is scare! (Yummy men's stuff though...)
>So, any recommendations on books, patterns, websites...?
>It doesn't have to be an "I have just stepped out of a picture frame" look,
>just recognisably celtic-ish...
>Thanks,
>Rebecca



Kimiko Small
Costumer, Fiber Artist, Web Designer, Wife and Mother
kimiko@kimiko1.com; http://www.kimiko1.com
"When there is fear, there is no creativity" ~ C. Lowell

Graphic Intern at Costume Gallery
http://www.costumegallery.com

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> If anyone is interested I could upload them temporarily onto my site (they
are
> huge, but I don't have time to crop them or do anything with them, I have
them
> on my HD for study purposes).
> So, are people interested?

I for one would be extremely interested:) When I was at the V&A there wasn't
a heck of a lot of early stuff out. There was a large display of paper
costumes though...

michaela
http://costumes.glittersweet.com


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From: Catherine Olanich Raymond <cathy@thyrsus.com>
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: whats your degree in
Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 22:42:54 -0400
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On Thursday 14 August 2003 09:35 am, Catherine Kinsey wrote:
> well, not to quibble, but I guess I don't consider many to be a
> majority.  

Oh, why not quibble?  The rest of us do.  :-)

I guess my problem with "many" is that I seem to remember that H-costume has 
hundreds of members, and I haven't seen much evidence that most of them (or 
even most of the active posters) have SF fannish ties.  Though I could be 
wrong....

>And I realized I tend to lump fantasy & SF together so in my
> head I was thinking a broader pool of candidates.

That's a good point.



> I was definately interested in costuming before my involvement with
> F/SF, and renfaires.  

So was I.  I was interested in costuming before I even learned there *was* 
such a thing as SF fandom.  Or even before I knew about D&D.  :-)



-- 
Cathy Raymond <cathy@thyrsus.com>

“No man is rich enough to buy back his 
past.”  Oscar Wilde

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Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 01:19:51 -0700
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Carolyn Kayta Barrows <kayta@frys.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Perfect outfit
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>
> > If y'all had the chance to make one "perfect outfit," and had up to 2
> > years to complete it, what would you make, and why? This can be a
> > special costume, or garb, or a very special dress.
>
>I don't really have a fantasy about one "perfect outfit."  But sometimes I
>*do* fantasize about being able to invest serious time into a high accuracy
>Viking wardrobe.

Yeah, like she said.  I'd want a whole weekend's worth of Edwardians, 
including changing clothes for several daytime activities and night-time 
ones, plus traveling clothes to get to the event and back, plus night-wear 
and a peignoir, and, of course, underwear and petticoats, hats, purses, 
shoes, etc.


        CarolynKayta Barrows
dollmaker, fibre artist, textillian
          www.FunStuft.com

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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Carolyn Kayta Barrows <kayta@frys.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Message to Joe
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>I meant a group dominated by females, not entirely comprised of them.
>:o)
>Cheers,
>Joe

Dominated?  But Joe, it's not THAT kind of group... ;)


        CarolynKayta Barrows
dollmaker, fibre artist, textillian
          www.FunStuft.com

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	Fri, 15 Aug 2003 08:27:44 BST
Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 08:27:44 +0100 (BST)
From: =?iso-8859-1?q?N=20Kipar?= <nicolas_fouquet@yahoo.com>
Subject: Smock pictures available, was Re: [h-cost] delurking with a partlet
	question
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I just wnated to say that I have a load of photos of the smocks in the V&A and
actually everything else which was worth taking photos of in the British
Galleries . I took over 400 photos durin my last visit - and the next visit is
due with even more memory cards next Saturday.
If anyone is interested I could upload them temporarily onto my site (they are
huge, but I don't have time to crop them or do anything with them, I have them
on my HD for study purposes).
So, are people interested?

Nicole

=====
One of the Three Baroque Lurve Goddess    
http://www.kipar.org/temp/baroque-lurve-goddesses.jpg

Email: nicole@kipar.org
URL: http://www.kipar.org

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Many thanks for the great leads for this dress. As it happened I picked up the costume book mentioned at the Costume College a week or so ago.
If you ever get a chance to come to one of these events - let me tell you we really enjoyed ourselves. AND we didn't even get into any of the limited classes. We joined the guild too late to meet the limited class deadline. SO word to the wise join and register early for next years event. Theme is the "Gay 90's" I already have my dressed picked out and fabric as well!!
Hope everyone is cooling off a bit.
Ysandra
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From: "Glenda Robinson" <glendar@compassnet.com.au>
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Subject: [h-cost] Detling Military Odyssey, UK
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Hi All,

Wayne and I are definitely attending the Detling Military Odyssey on the
Saturday, after a week of touring around the South East of England.

I'd love to visit with other H-Costumers who will be there.

If anyone who's going can tell me which group you'll be with - I'll try to
find you.

This will be the first reenactment event I've been to as a 'punter' since
about 1985, and I don't know that Wayne's ever done this - he's been
reenacting since the age of 14.

Glenda.





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Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 23:33:15 -0500
From: Joe Robertson <joedr@charter.net>
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I meant a group dominated by females, not entirely comprised of them.
:o)
Cheers,
Joe
---
Joe Robertson, Psy.D.
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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Fri Aug 15 07:00:32 2003
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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Lavolta Press <fran@lavoltapress.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Linthicum's date of death
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At 08:33 PM 8/14/2003 -0700, you wrote:
>I'm trying to work out if "Costume in the Drama of Shakespeare and his 
>Contemporaries" by M. Channing Linthicum published in 1936 is out of 
>copyright or not.  Would any of you happen to know when Marie Linthicum 
>died?  Any evidence that she died before 1946 would be most appreciated, 
>lies are okay too.....oh no, just kidding.

I think this website would be helpful to you:

http://www.copyright.gov/circs/circ22.html

This is the US government's site on searching the Copyright Office's records.

Fran



Lavolta Press Books on Historic Costuming
http://www.lavoltapress.com
Historic and Vintage Dance
http://www.lavoltapress.com/dance 

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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Fri Aug 15 07:00:32 2003
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Mine (ours) is something I've mentioned before, and it WILL get 
done.....someday.      It's the Titania and Oberon, from "Midsummer Night's 
Dream", done as full court Elizabethans.  The underpinnings and shapes will 
be as close as we can make them (Thanks, Margo, for creating the 
patterns!!), even though the fabrics won't be historical.  We have about 40 
yds of black velvet with gold glitter roses on it for the main 
gown/doublet/slops/etc.  Don't know yet what the forepart will be, but I 
have some iridescent white sheer that I could bead the heck out of.  Then 
of course there will be the huge glittery sheer faerie wings, crowns, etc.

And re: guys on the list, don't forget Stephen.

Sandy

>From: "Sue Clemenger" <mooncat@in-tch.com>
>
> > > Okay, everybody....
> > If y'all had the chance to make one "perfect outfit," and had up to 2
> > years to complete it, what would you make, and why? This can be a
> > special costume, or garb, or a very special dress.

"Those Who Fail To Learn History
Are Doomed To Repeat It;
Those Who Fail To Learn History Correctly--
Why They Are Simply Doomed."

Achemdro'hm
"The Illusion of Historical Fact"
-- C.Y. 4971

Andromeda


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You are hilarious! I'm afraid I belong to the uniform set, as well.
Joe
---
Joe Robertson, Psy.D.
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Is there a particular time period they are trying to target? I might be
able to point you the right direction.
Joe
---
Joe Robertson, Psy.D.
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And when Did I become one of the Girls?

Stephen Bergdahl - Lord Vich

"I don't suffer from insanity!  I fact I rather enjoy it!"

----- Original Message -----
From: "Penny Ladnier" <penny@costumegallery.com>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 6:44 PM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Message to Joe


> I really miss RL Shep.  He was such a wonderful mentor to me through the
> years.  Does anyone have an update on him.
>
> Penny Ladnier
> Owner, The Costume Gallery & Costume Classroom
> www.costumegallery.com
> www.costumeclassroom.com
>
>
> [This E-mail was scanned for viruses by Plugit.com Virus Scanners
(http://www.plugit.com)]
>
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] delurking with a partlet question
Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 15:31:24 +1200
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> Having seen the portrait in real life, I don't think it is a partlet but
an
> embroidered shirt.  There is a shirts and smocks article by Janet Arnold
> that has a layout for a similar one IIRC.  There is also a women's shirt
in
> the V&A that is embroidered through the chest and sleeve areas like this
> one would be.

Hooray:) Someone else on this wavelength;)

There are heaps of shifts with embroidery on the top half as well as the
sleeves, most that I've seen are rather sparcely decorated (stripes etc) but
that one you mention is also at Drea's site, I'm sure I posted these just
recently to the list...

http://costume.dm.net/va/smocks.html
Theses are allover though...

http://costume.dm.net/bath/
Collar and fronts decorated
Other views:
http://costume.dm.net/chemise.html

No bands, but a nice shirt nonethelesss
http://www.kipar.demon.co.uk/renaissance.html


And I just found one last night.. I'll copy from my dress diary thingy:

Just when you think you are staring to unterstand a certain era you go and
find something like this:
English Woman's Smock:
http://emu.man.ac.uk/wagcustom/Display.php?irn=19688&QueryPage=%2Fwagcustom%
252%0DFDtlQuery.php

I swear that looks more like it came out of the 1960s with those rainbows
and freeform design...

The really covered ones are low necked to be sure, but still, it does show
they were indeed capable of being well less washable than most shifts would
seem to be.

michaela
http://costumes.glittersweet.com



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Subject: [h-cost] Linthicum's date of death
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I'm trying to work out if "Costume in the Drama of Shakespeare and his Contemporaries" by M. Channing Linthicum published in 1936 is out of copyright or not.  Would any of you happen to know when Marie Linthicum died?  Any evidence that she died before 1946 would be most appreciated, lies are okay too.....oh no, just kidding.

Thanks bunches, 

Lisa Sinervo
Thrednedle Strete Clothiers
www.ThrednedleStrete.com

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Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 20:12:43 -0700
From: Kimiko Small <kimiko@kimiko1.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: whats your degree in
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I've been doing catchup with this list, but I thought I would make a small 
comment on this topic.

My college degree was a BS in Business Admin, Option in Accountancy.

How I wish I had followed my dad's advice and went for something with a 
Liberal Arts major or something, because I hate accounting! At least it 
gave me a strong understanding of business which I will need.

Thankfully, I am now a full time mom, with a husband who supports my love 
of costuming and desire to make that a part time business.

And on the side topic generated... I loved AD&D, having started in '78 with 
the original rules. I got into Ren Faires in '87, where I realized my love 
of sewing had a wonderful benefit if only I could figure out costuming. 
Enjoyed doing faires as a Scot until '98, and have returned this year to do 
English nobility. I have enjoyed many years of costuming, had a brief stint 
in the SCA (and may return someday), enjoyed many years of LARPing from '98 
to '02, and am now dabbling in art to wear. I have never done a 
SciFi/Fantasy con, except to actually game or larp, and might ponder 
getting involved doing more fantasy type costumes. I also enjoy web design 
and graphic arts, and my hubby is a computer network engineer, who has been 
involved in most of the activities I have done, tho not as long a time.

And now it is time for our nightly walk. Good night all.

Kimiko


Kimiko Small
Costumer, Fiber Artist, Web Designer, Wife and Mother
kimiko@kimiko1.com; http://www.kimiko1.com
"When there is fear, there is no creativity" ~ C. Lowell

Graphic Intern at Costume Gallery
http://www.costumegallery.com

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From: Claire Clarke <Lady_Angharad@bigpond.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Ultimate costume   was   List down again?
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----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Sue Clemenger" <mooncat@in-tch.com>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Friday, August 15, 2003 5:37 AM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] List down again?


> > Okay, everybody....
> If y'all had the chance to make one "perfect outfit," and had up to 2
> years to complete it, what would you make, and why? This can be a
> special costume, or garb, or a very special dress.
>
I think I'd just settle for getting everything on my 'to-do' list
done, so I could start in on the more ambitious stuff.

Claire
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I did play D&D in highschool, and then I got into SF fandom in college. 
I usually did historically inspired costumes (no giant wings or latex 
here) and got the "are you in the SCA" question a lot. I did end up in 
the SCA. I've also done a little computer stuff.
Hmm.
And, I am finishing up my BA in the spring, and heading to grad school 
next. So, only an AA in math/science so far.

liz young

Jean Waddie wrote:

> I don't know how it comes about, but there's a big circular SF - 
> costuming - re-enactment - military history - miniature wargaming - 
> roleplaying - computer programming thingy.  You tend to find a lot of 
> crossover between those interests.  I centre in re-enactment, and most 
> of the people I know there also do one or more of the others.  Some of 
> the links are obvious, some less so.
>
> Jean
>
>
> Sheryl Nance-Durst <sherylnd@kc.rr.com> wrote
>
>> At 09:39 PM 8/12/03 -0400, Cathy wrote:
>>
>>> My husband (who is also a computer programmer) would probably say 
>>> that's
>>> because both programmers and costumers tend to gravitate to, and be 
>>> part of,
>>> SF fandom, though from what I've seen on this list that's a
>>> oversimplification since many of the costumers on this list aren't 
>>> involved
>>> with science fiction fandom.
>>
>>
>> I hadn't thought about that aspect. It's very possible that's at least a
>> contributing factor. A number of programmers that I know also work
>> at the local Renaissance festival (with LOTS of costumes) because they
>> were drawn into the "role-playing" aspect after getting started in
>> Dungeons & Dragons.
>



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From: Catherine Olanich Raymond <cathy@thyrsus.com>
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Joe's comment about h-costume
Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 22:39:51 -0400
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On Thursday 14 August 2003 04:53 pm, Joe Robertson wrote:
> I feel sort of like an outsider here...a male in a female dominated
> group. At any rate, I am here and glad to be here and I LOVE historical
> clothing. I am building a wardrobe as we speak.

If you were female, Joe, I suspect you would have the experience of being the 
"outsider"  in a special interest group a lot more often.  :-)

The other special interest list in which I participate regularly is the 
General Technics list.  GT specializes in science, technology and SF and is 
male-dominated.  Yet in some ways, it reminds me a lot of h-costume

Obligatory costume content.  GT has a kind of informal uniform; jeans, with a 
black polo shirt bearing the "GT" emblem (occasional group orders are put in 
with Lands' End).

Speaking  of Lands' End, their current catalogue has a cute comic which spoofs 
the company's traditional advertising style by applying it to historic 
costume from various periods.  Example:  "The Essential Toga:  At last, a 
toga that FITS!  No annoying sash slippage, no fabric that bunches in all the 
wrong places.  Just a simple, flattering cut that works for EVERYONE.  Now 
with pockets!"  :-)

-- 
Cathy Raymond <cathy@thyrsus.com>

“No man is rich enough to buy back his 
past.”  Oscar Wilde

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From: Catherine Olanich Raymond <cathy@thyrsus.com>
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] what's your degree in?
Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 22:33:25 -0400
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On Thursday 14 August 2003 06:10 pm, Jean Waddie wrote:
> I don't know how it comes about, but there's a big circular SF -
> costuming - re-enactment - military history - miniature wargaming -
> roleplaying - computer programming thingy.  You tend to find a lot of
> crossover between those interests.  I centre in re-enactment, and most
> of the people I know there also do one or more of the others.  Some of
> the links are obvious, some less so.
>
[snip]



It's interesting that you say that, Jean.  My husband would agree with you.

He's also participated in all the interests you named above, except for 
costuming and reenactment (unless you count his occasional participation in 
the SCA....)

-- 
Cathy Raymond <cathy@thyrsus.com>

“No man is rich enough to buy back his 
past.”  Oscar Wilde

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Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 21:14:24 -0500
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Danielle Nunn-Weinberg <dannw@mn.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] delurking with a partlet question
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Greetings,

Having seen the portrait in real life, I don't think it is a partlet but an 
embroidered shirt.  There is a shirts and smocks article by Janet Arnold 
that has a layout for a similar one IIRC.  There is also a women's shirt in 
the V&A that is embroidered through the chest and sleeve areas like this 
one would be.

Cheers,
Danielle

At 08:22 PM 8/14/2003 -0400, you wrote:
>How does one make a partlet like this?
>
>http://costume.dm.net/gallery/1569.html
>
>Thanks in advance.
>
>Genie B

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From: Catherine Olanich Raymond <cathy@thyrsus.com>
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Perfect outfit
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On Thursday 14 August 2003 03:37 pm, Sue Clemenger wrote:
> Quiet, I think.
> My life is pretty chaotic right now, or I'd probably be posting.
> Maybe we should start a new thread....
> hmmm.....
> hmmmm.......
> Okay, everybody....
> If y'all had the chance to make one "perfect outfit," and had up to 2
> years to complete it, what would you make, and why? This can be a
> special costume, or garb, or a very special dress.
> Since this is a moderately-priced fantasy <g>, we'll assume that we all
> get the basic fabrics and doodads and whatnots that we need, without
> blowing our entire theoretical budgets on that hand-made 100% silk
> velvet that I'm sure some of us drool over in our crazy moments....

I don't really have a fantasy about one "perfect outfit."  But sometimes I 
*do* fantasize about being able to invest serious time into a high accuracy 
Viking wardrobe.

-- 
Cathy Raymond <cathy@thyrsus.com>

“No man is rich enough to buy back his 
past.”  Oscar Wilde

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Subject: Re: [h-cost] what's your degree in?
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I don't know how it comes about, but there's a big circular SF - 
costuming - re-enactment - military history - miniature wargaming - 
roleplaying - computer programming thingy.  You tend to find a lot of 
crossover between those interests.  I centre in re-enactment, and most 
of the people I know there also do one or more of the others.  Some of 
the links are obvious, some less so.

Jean


Sheryl Nance-Durst <sherylnd@kc.rr.com> wrote
>At 09:39 PM 8/12/03 -0400, Cathy wrote:
>>My husband (who is also a computer programmer) would probably say that's
>>because both programmers and costumers tend to gravitate to, and be part of,
>>SF fandom, though from what I've seen on this list that's a
>>oversimplification since many of the costumers on this list aren't involved
>>with science fiction fandom.
>
>I hadn't thought about that aspect. It's very possible that's at least a
>contributing factor. A number of programmers that I know also work
>at the local Renaissance festival (with LOTS of costumes) because they
>were drawn into the "role-playing" aspect after getting started in
>Dungeons & Dragons.
>
>Sheryl N-D
>
>_______________________________________________
>h-costume mailing list
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-- 
Jean Waddie
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On Thu, 14 Aug 2003 19:59:31 -0500 "Genie" <kerowyn@mindspring.com>
writes:
> Ladies,
>     please change the subject line
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: <btana@juno.com>
> To: <h-costume@indra.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2003 10:40 PM
> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: whats your degree in
>
> > easy.  The sites below have pictures of my work.
> >         And since the subj is "what's your degree in"... no degree...
> > just the school of hard knocks, which has made making Halloween 
> costumes for the kids a creative process when you want something but
don't 
> have the money for materials.  I started sewing for the kids about 10 
> years ago, but hadn't touched a machine for about 15 years prior to 
> that.


        You'll notice that I DID fit it into the subject line of the
message, although it was at the end of my email, it was still there. 
Thank you very much for reading the WHOLE email and noticing.

Astrid of the Horde
Never argue with a dragon, for thou art crunchy and go well with Brie.
    http://www.geocities.com/tul_juriss - for links to ALL my current
sites
    http://www.geocities.com/astridofthehorde - costumes I've made
    http://www.geocities.com/house_qul_mupwi - The noble Klingon House
    http://www.geocities.com/klingon_pirates_guild - The Klingon Pirate's
Guild

________________________________________________________________
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Message to Joe
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I really miss RL Shep.  He was such a wonderful mentor to me through the
years.  Does anyone have an update on him.

Penny Ladnier
Owner, The Costume Gallery & Costume Classroom
www.costumegallery.com
www.costumeclassroom.com


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Status: RO

And Teddy.  I miss hearing from Teddy.


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Robin Netherton" <robin@shell.nightowl.net>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 7:59 PM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Message to Joe


> 
> On Thu, 14 Aug 2003, Penny Ladnier wrote:
> 
> > There is also Mike T. and Albert Cat.
> 
> And on-and-off members Teddy, Henk, and Marc, who come in and out
> depending on time and mood.
> 
> --Robin
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

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On Thursday 14 August 2003 04:00 pm, Saragrace T. Knauf wrote:
> Gosh, this isn't easy for me....I guess I have too many dream
> thingys...wait, wait, it is coming to me again!
>
> I wish for a man in my life that looks just like this guy so I can make
> this outfit for him!  http://www.saragrace.net/4B_1_Ital_dandy.html
>
> He wouldn't even have to pay me!

Very sexy....

Oh, you mean the guy.   He's cute, but I prefer slender dark-haired men 
myself....  :-)
-- 
Cathy Raymond <cathy@thyrsus.com>

“No man is rich enough to buy back his 
past.”  Oscar Wilde

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OMG, and Ron in Williamsburg.

Penny Ladnier
Owner, The Costume Gallery & Costume Classroom
www.costumegallery.com
www.costumeclassroom.com


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We also forgot Pierre, of Sandy and Pierre fame!

Penny Ladnier
Owner, The Costume Gallery & Costume Classroom
www.costumegallery.com
www.costumeclassroom.com


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Bjarne - even your dream garb is fabulous!

Lalah
Never give up, Never surrender
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Subject: [h-cost] FW: Dream Garb-was: List down again?
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I just realized something after staring at this picture all these years. The
brown part of the collar is the animal's tail...Ferrets don't have a fluffy
tail do they? 

-----Original Message-----
From: Saragrace T. Knauf [mailto:saragrace@earthlink.net] 
Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 1:00 PM
To: 'Historical Costume'
Subject: Dream Garb-was: List down again?



Gosh, this isn't easy for me....I guess I have too many dream
thingys...wait, wait, it is coming to me again!

I wish for a man in my life that looks just like this guy so I can make this
outfit for him!  http://www.saragrace.net/4B_1_Ital_dandy.html

He wouldn't even have to pay me!

Sg

Sigh...., I've been waiting so long.......


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Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 13:51:46 -0700
From: Kimiko Small <kimiko@kimiko1.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Dream Garb-was: List down again?
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At 03:53 PM 8/14/2003 -0500, you wrote:

>I feel sort of like an outsider here...a male in a female dominated
>group. At any rate, I am here and glad to be here and I LOVE historical
>clothing. I am building a wardrobe as we speak.
>Slainte,
>Joe
>--


So, Joe, what are you working on now? I read you are into the celtic stuff, 
and I enjoy that style as well. Many years of doing Scots for local ren faires.

Kimiko



Kimiko Small
Costumer, Fiber Artist, Web Designer, Wife and Mother
kimiko@kimiko1.com; http://www.kimiko1.com
"When there is fear, there is no creativity" ~ C. Lowell

Graphic Intern at Costume Gallery
http://www.costumegallery.com

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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Message to Joe
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Really Joe, you are not alone. I remember an few actors joining the list a
while back just to do research for their roles before a show was to start
either for stage, TV, or a movie. :)

Your in Dallas right? We have a clothier' guild that meets in Carrollton
once a month that you are more than welcome to meet up with us if you
like. Sorry I have not posted earlier I have kinda been swamped with a new
job. :)

Email me for more details if you like. :)

Chiara

> Joe! Don't feel funny...Bjarne is one of our most delightful
> contributors...we LIKE men in historical clothing.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com]
> On Behalf Of Joe Robertson
> Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 1:54 PM
> To: Historical Costume
> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Dream Garb-was: List down again?
>
>
> I feel sort of like an outsider here...a male in a female dominated
> group. At any rate, I am here and glad to be here and I LOVE historical
> clothing. I am building a wardrobe as we speak. Slainte, Joe
> ---
> Joe Robertson, Psy.D. _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
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> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 17:59:48 -0700
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Dawn Jacobson <dme_maud@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] List down again?
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At 01:37 PM 8/14/2003 -0600, you wrote:
>Quiet, I think.
>My life is pretty chaotic right now, or I'd probably be posting.
>Maybe we should start a new thread....
>hmmm.....
>hmmmm.......
>Okay, everybody....
>If y'all had the chance to make one "perfect outfit," and had up to 2
>years to complete it, what would you make, and why? This can be a
>special costume, or garb, or a very special dress.
>Since this is a moderately-priced fantasy <g>, we'll assume that we all
>get the basic fabrics and doodads and whatnots that we need, without
>blowing our entire theoretical budgets on that hand-made 100% silk
>velvet that I'm sure some of us drool over in our crazy moments....
>--sue

This week's fantasy: a perfect 1908 suit to go with a perfect 1908 hat. ;-)

Cream-colored tropical weight gabardine, with bands of darker wool to serve 
as the trim. A slightly longer than finger-tip jacket, with a cutaway 
front, and an ankle-length skirt that matches the jacket in trim and cut. A 
white linen lawn blouse to wear underneath, and the perfect shoes.

When I get this finished (and I will!), I'm going to have my picture taken 
at an historic home in Los Angeles to mimic a photo I have of the original 
owner's wife, as I'm wearing her suit.

Dawn

Dawn Jacobson
Vallejo, CA, USA

Clothes are the costumes we wear every day. 
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] what's your degree in?
Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 20:11:43 -0500
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Margo,

having met you and seen your work, you have nothing to feel inferior about.

Genie
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Margo Anderson" <margo@margospatterns.com>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>; "Historical Costume"
<h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2003 9:23 PM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] what's your degree in?


> At 08:52 PM 08/06/2003 -0500, Sheryl Nance-Durst wrote:
>
> >>Actually, I've been having a bit of an inferiority complex here--my
degrees
> >>seem so staid and mundane, compared to the marvelous combinations being
> >>displayed by other members of the list.
> >
> >My favorites so far have been the law degree, the physics and the
chemistry.
>
> I think we have and MD or two lurking around here, as well.
>
> As for me, well, I'm the proud holder of a high school equivanlency
> certificate..And I've done all right for myself in costuming.
>
> Margo
>
> "One Tough Costumer"
>
> www.margospatterns.com
> _______________________________________________
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Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 19:59:35 -0500 (CDT)
From: Robin Netherton <robin@shell.nightowl.net>
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Message to Joe
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On Thu, 14 Aug 2003, Penny Ladnier wrote:

> There is also Mike T. and Albert Cat.

And on-and-off members Teddy, Henk, and Marc, who come in and out
depending on time and mood.

--Robin


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From: "Glenda Robinson" <glendar@compassnet.com.au>
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References: <004201c3629f$fa135940$6501a8c0@SG01>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] FW: Dream Garb-was: List down again?
Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 10:42:48 +1000
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As a former ferret owner myself ...

They have full, hairy tails. They're not as fluffy as a rabbits, though.

Glenda.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Saragrace T. Knauf" <saragrace@earthlink.net>
To: <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Friday, August 15, 2003 6:09 AM
Subject: [h-cost] FW: Dream Garb-was: List down again?


>
> I just realized something after staring at this picture all these years.
The
> brown part of the collar is the animal's tail...Ferrets don't have a
fluffy
> tail do they?
>

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Subject: [h-cost] delurking with a partlet question
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How does one make a partlet like this?

http://costume.dm.net/gallery/1569.html

Thanks in advance.

Genie B 

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> Right, now I understand what you're saying.  No, this wasn't because of
> problems or security or anything.  I decided to take the time to
> actually make up a "personal" website, so there was a framework there
> that I can place any pictures in that I want to show h-costume folk, or
> others.  I wanted to add the book's publication details to these two
> images, and the easiest way to do that seemed to be to make a new
> document with the links in.  And when you put links in a document, it's
> usual (I think?) to use a name with the hyperlink "hidden", rather than
> just list the link.

Yes but you made a .doc file not an html file. You can't click links in a
doc file (at least those of us without word can't).

If it was an html file, the standard file for the web, everyone could have
used the links.

michaela
http://costumes.glittersweet.com


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Joe,

There is also Mike T. and Albert Cat.

Penny Ladnier
Owner, The Costume Gallery & Costume Classroom
www.costumegallery.com
www.costumeclassroom.com


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On Thursday 14 August 2003 02:52 pm, Saragrace T. Knauf wrote:
> Or is it just quiet...am I the only one that writes about it?  I must get a
> life!

It is quiet at the moment.  I have a few items, but not much.

Unless there's posts neither of us are getting.  :-)

-- 
Cathy Raymond <cathy@thyrsus.com>

“No man is rich enough to buy back his 
past.”  Oscar Wilde

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From: "Tonkin, Rebecca (PIRSA-SARDI)" <tonkin.rebecca@saugov.sa.gov.au>
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Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 09:54:46 +0930
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Subject: [h-cost] scots/celtic/fantasy type costume
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Hi:
A friend of mine is having a wedding in about 6 weeks, with a celtic
(dominantly scottish I think) theme. I've looked around to find national
costumes, medieval dress in Scotland, etc., and discovered that info on what
women wore is scare! (Yummy men's stuff though...)
So, any recommendations on books, patterns, websites...?
It doesn't have to be an "I have just stepped out of a picture frame" look,
just recognisably celtic-ish... 
Thanks,
Rebecca
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Subject: [h-cost] was what's your degree in?
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Ladies,
    please change the subject line
----- Original Message ----- 
From: <btana@juno.com>
To: <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2003 10:40 PM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: whats your degree in


> 
> On Wed, 13 Aug 2003 21:34:00 -0400 Catherine Olanich Raymond
> <cathy@thyrsus.com> writes:
> > 
> > >The ST:WoK radiation suit made for a
> > > roommate who was a rabid Scotty fan comes to mind among other 
> > things :).  Their costumes must have been very poorly made for the show
> 
> > because when Jimmy Doohan saw it he said he thought it was better done 
> > that his!
> > 
> > Neat; I wish I had seen it.
> > 
> 
>         I can't remember.... oh yeah, I think it was Robert O'Reilly and
> J.G. Hertzler liked the look of some Klingon uniforms made by friends of
> mine.  And they were at the ST: The Experience and saw one from the
> shows... reportedly they wouldn't hold up for a single ep. <chuckle>  And
> I've also read that in one of my ST books somewhere, but I can't remember
> which one at the moment.
> 
> > >
> > > I never got into the latex mask part of it however, which seemed 
> > to get big after Star Wars, may have been why I then drifted more 
> > full-time into historic costuming.
> > 
> > I've never been big on experimenting with latex or fiberglass (two 
> > big substances in fannish SF costumes) myself.
> > 
> 
>         For what I've seen, in my area, I haven't seen alot of
> fiberglass, though I HAVE seen alot of vac-u-form stuff.  I do quite a
> bit of latex work, making ridges... that reminds me, I also need to
> finish up demon horns for my youngest daughter... and once you have the
> mold for the latex, it's a piece of cake.  But if every one has to be
> different, it can be QUITE time consuming, though it actually is quite
> easy.  The sites below have pictures of my work.
>         And since the subj is "what's your degree in"... no degree...
> just the school of hard knocks, which has made making Halloween costumes
> for the kids a creative process when you want something but don't have
> the money for materials.  I started sewing for the kids about 10 years
> ago, but hadn't touched a machine for about 15 years prior to that.
> 
> Astrid
> Never argue with a dragon, for thou art crunchy and go well with Brie.
>     http://www.geocities.com/astridofthehorde - costumes I've made
>     http://www.geocities.com/house_qul_mupwi - The noble Klingon House
>     http://www.geocities.com/klingon_pirates_guild - The Klingon Pirate's
> Guild
> 
> ________________________________________________________________
> The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand!
> Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER!
> Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today!
> _______________________________________________
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Subject: [h-cost] Message to Joe
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Joe! Don't feel funny...Bjarne is one of our most delightful
contributors...we LIKE men in historical clothing.

-----Original Message-----
From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com] On
Behalf Of Joe Robertson
Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 1:54 PM
To: Historical Costume
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Dream Garb-was: List down again?


I feel sort of like an outsider here...a male in a female dominated group.
At any rate, I am here and glad to be here and I LOVE historical clothing. I
am building a wardrobe as we speak. Slainte, Joe
---
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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Fri Aug 15 07:53:50 2003
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I feel sort of like an outsider here...a male in a female dominated
group. At any rate, I am here and glad to be here and I LOVE historical
clothing. I am building a wardrobe as we speak.
Slainte,
Joe
---
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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Fri Aug 15 08:29:13 2003
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Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 20:27:52 +0100
To: "Saragrace T. Knauf" <saragrace@earthlink.net>
From: Jean Waddie <anne@montgomerie.demon.co.uk>
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Subject: [h-cost] Re: Constructive criticism needed-links and note to Jean
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Right, now I understand what you're saying.  No, this wasn't because of 
problems or security or anything.  I decided to take the time to 
actually make up a "personal" website, so there was a framework there 
that I can place any pictures in that I want to show h-costume folk, or 
others.  I wanted to add the book's publication details to these two 
images, and the easiest way to do that seemed to be to make a new 
document with the links in.  And when you put links in a document, it's 
usual (I think?) to use a name with the hyperlink "hidden", rather than 
just list the link.

Does that explain?  No great mysteries I'm afraid.

Jean



In message <001701c361c9$58e24350$6501a8c0@SG01>, Saragrace T. Knauf 
<saragrace@earthlink.net> writes
>Here are the links for others....
>
>First page  http://www.montgomerie.demon.co.uk/Personal/Costume/Foster1.jpg
>
>Second page http://www.montgomerie.demon.co.uk/Personal/Costume/Foster2.jpg
>
>Jean, what I was trying to understand is why you 'hid' (for lack of a better
>word) the links behind the words "First Page" & "Second Page" as opposed to
>just pasting the link itself and you placed them in a separate document
>posted (as opposed to just dumping them in the email itself like I just did)
>on your webstie...but I think you alluded that you were having difficulty?
>
>No problem, I was just wondering if I was missing something like a security
>issue or browser problem that others might have (like those who use AOL)
>that you were trying to alleviate.
>
>BTW if you haven't looked at the Flemish Garb group postings lately you
>should..Michaela has posted som patterns and artwork to support a very
>interesting approach to the sleeve issue....
>
>Sg
>
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com] On
>Behalf Of Jean Waddie
>Sent: Sunday, August 10, 2003 12:08 PM
>To: Historical Costume
>Subject: Re: [h-cost] Constructive criticism needed
>
>
>Well, I think I've done it.  Try
>http://www.montgomerie.demon.co.uk/Personal/Costume/Squarearmhole.doc
>
>Hope it helps,
>
>Jean
>
>
>Saragrace knauf <saragrace@earthlink.net> wrote
>>Jean, I would be very indebted to you.  Thanks very much!
>>
>>Sg
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com]
>>On Behalf Of Jean Waddie
>>Sent: Friday, August 08, 2003 2:34 PM
>>To: Historical Costume
>>Cc: Flemish_Garb@yahoogroups.com
>>Subject: Re: [h-cost] Constructive criticism needed
>>
>>
>>Saragrace,
>>
>>The bit about the sleeve being squared off rang a bell with me.  I had
>>been looking recently in the wonderful book my mother gave me on
>>drafting and adapting patterns, which I use particularly for sleeves
>>("Creating fashion" by Betty Foster, 1983).  It has a wing sleeve with
>>deep armhole which comes down to a right angle and straight line across
>>the bottom of the armhole.  I've never seen such a seam on an actual
>>garment, all the batwing sleeves I remember were raglan, or cut as a
>>single piece with the bodice.  But it might give you a clue to doing a
>>tighter version of the same thing.
>>
>>I will attempt to scan and post the diagrams at the weekend, if I can
>>work the technology.
>>
>>Jean
>>
>

-- 
Jean Waddie
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From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" <drewscph@post12.tele.dk>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] List down again?
Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 21:49:55 +0200
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I am signing in here.
I want a very special blue colour and watered silk, not the crap you get
these days, but real watered silk. The colour i am after is like the sky is
in january, if the sun is shining and no clouds.
Then i would like real silver thread to make bobbin lace with and then i
would make a full outfit for the year of 1760 with large cufs and almost a
sun in the skirts.
I would make lots of lace to line all the sides with, and i should embellish
further with silver, real silver spangels.
That would be lovely.
If you gave me 2 years further, i would make the shirt in real holland
linnen and i would make the lace for the shirt myself, but this would
probably be the heardest thing to struggle with, because it is such a slow
work, if you want to make real fine point ground lace.................

Here we have finally had more cold weather. We almost melted away for the
last month, and i hate it, because you have to wash your hands all the
times, when you are sewing or embroidering. I am making a beautifull
stomacher this moment, but i wont finish it until about a month. I am using
satin stitches (long and short stitches) and only 1 strand thread, so it
gets very shiny and nice..........

Bjarne in Denmark





Leif og Bjarne Drews
www.my-drewscostumes.dk

http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/
----- Original Message -----
From: "Sue Clemenger" <mooncat@in-tch.com>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 9:37 PM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] List down again?


> Quiet, I think.
> My life is pretty chaotic right now, or I'd probably be posting.
> Maybe we should start a new thread....
> hmmm.....
> hmmmm.......
> Okay, everybody....
> If y'all had the chance to make one "perfect outfit," and had up to 2
> years to complete it, what would you make, and why? This can be a
> special costume, or garb, or a very special dress.
> Since this is a moderately-priced fantasy <g>, we'll assume that we all
> get the basic fabrics and doodads and whatnots that we need, without
> blowing our entire theoretical budgets on that hand-made 100% silk
> velvet that I'm sure some of us drool over in our crazy moments....
> --sue
>
> "Saragrace T. Knauf" wrote:
> >
> > Or is it just quiet...am I the only one that writes about it?  I must
get a
> > life!
> >
> > Sg
> > _______________________________________________
> > h-costume mailing list
> > h-costume@mail.indra.com
> > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
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>


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From: "Saragrace T. Knauf" <saragrace@earthlink.net>
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Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 13:00:12 -0700
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Subject: [h-cost] Dream Garb-was: List down again?
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Gosh, this isn't easy for me....I guess I have too many dream
thingys...wait, wait, it is coming to me again!

I wish for a man in my life that looks just like this guy so I can make this
outfit for him!  http://www.saragrace.net/4B_1_Ital_dandy.html

He wouldn't even have to pay me!

Sg

Sigh...., I've been waiting so long.......


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Subject: Re: [h-cost] List down again?
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----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Sue Clemenger" <mooncat@in-tch.com>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 3:37 PM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] List down again?


> Okay, everybody....
> If y'all had the chance to make one "perfect outfit," and had up to 2
> years to complete it, what would you make, and why? This can be a
> special costume, or garb, or a very special dress.
> Since this is a moderately-priced fantasy <g>, we'll assume that we all
> get the basic fabrics and doodads and whatnots that we need, without
> blowing our entire theoretical budgets on that hand-made 100% silk
> velvet that I'm sure some of us drool over in our crazy moments....
> --sue
> 
> "Saragrace T. Knauf" wrote:

Easy one for me to answer... the Isabel de Valois dress.

http://mostlymedieval.com/isabel.htm


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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Dream Garb-was: List down again?
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> I wish for a man in my life that looks just like this guy so I can make this
> outfit for him!  http://www.saragrace.net/4B_1_Ital_dandy.html

<sighs in delight>

That's a great outfit.  And I wondered about the bicolor collar until I 
read about half of it being the pet ferret!

I saw this outfit done, once.  It was only about half as full-fashioned 
as it should have been, but looked great.

Myself, I'd redo my 'giant green houppelande of doom' except with *thin* 
real fur.  Maybe it'd weigh less, and it would drape better.

Then there's all the fun silly art clothing I want to make and wear 
around town, but haven't had time to make.  Y'know, vests with splashes 
of color, etc.  And I'd wear them, and then use a Star Trek Teleporter 
to go see Bjarne's costumes.

I think many people are grabbing the last of summer before school starts 
up again or before Autumn really gets rolling, so the various lists are 
quiet.

-- 
Cynthia Virtue and/or
Cynthia du Pr Argent

Medieval horseman with hound and hawk T-shirt by yours truly: 
http://store.virtue.to
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 partletquestion
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Oh, yeah! I only had a couple of hours at the V&A last year, and with a
dying battery in my camera to boot. I didn't get any pix at all from the
British Galleries.  I also didn't get to look at any of the 16th/17th c.
stuff they used to have up and then moved to storage and put some ball
gown display up instead....*sad sigh*
But I wouldn't have a chance to look at them until next week....I'm in
the middle of moving and will probably disconnect and pack the computer
today.
--sue, in hot, smoky *koff* montana *koff*

N Kipar wrote:
> 
> I just wnated to say that I have a load of photos of the smocks in the V&A and
> actually everything else which was worth taking photos of in the British
> Galleries . I took over 400 photos durin my last visit - and the next visit is
> due with even more memory cards next Saturday.
> If anyone is interested I could upload them temporarily onto my site (they are
> huge, but I don't have time to crop them or do anything with them, I have them
> on my HD for study purposes).
> So, are people interested?
> 
> Nicole
> 
> =====
> One of the Three Baroque Lurve Goddess
> http://www.kipar.org/temp/baroque-lurve-goddesses.jpg
> 
> Email: nicole@kipar.org
> URL: http://www.kipar.org
> 
> ________________________________________________________________________
> Want to chat instantly with your online friends?  Get the FREE Yahoo!
> Messenger http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com/
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Okay, I'll upload things in batches then and will try to remember not to delete
stuff before next week, do notify me, Sue, when you are done.

Nicole

 --- Sue Clemenger <mooncat@in-tch.com> wrote: > Oh, yeah! I only had a couple
of hours at the V&A last year, and with a
> dying battery in my camera to boot. I didn't get any pix at all from the
> British Galleries.  I also didn't get to look at any of the 16th/17th c.
> stuff they used to have up and then moved to storage and put some ball
> gown display up instead....*sad sigh*
> But I wouldn't have a chance to look at them until next week....I'm in
> the middle of moving and will probably disconnect and pack the computer
> today.
> --sue, in hot, smoky *koff* montana *koff*
> 
> N Kipar wrote:
> > 
> > I just wnated to say that I have a load of photos of the smocks in the V&A
> and
> > actually everything else which was worth taking photos of in the British
> > Galleries . I took over 400 photos durin my last visit - and the next visit
> is
> > due with even more memory cards next Saturday.
> > If anyone is interested I could upload them temporarily onto my site (they
> are
> > huge, but I don't have time to crop them or do anything with them, I have
> them
> > on my HD for study purposes).
> > So, are people interested?
> > 
> > Nicole
> > 
> > =====
> > One of the Three Baroque Lurve Goddess
> > http://www.kipar.org/temp/baroque-lurve-goddesses.jpg
> > 
> > Email: nicole@kipar.org
> > URL: http://www.kipar.org
> > 
> > ________________________________________________________________________
> > Want to chat instantly with your online friends?  Get the FREE Yahoo!
> > Messenger http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com/
> > _______________________________________________
> > h-costume mailing list
> > h-costume@mail.indra.com
> > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
> _______________________________________________
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> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costumeme@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume 

=====
One of the Three Baroque Lurve Goddess    
http://www.kipar.org/temp/baroque-lurve-goddesses.jpg

Email: nicole@kipar.org
URL: http://www.kipar.org

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Subject: Re: Smock pictures available, was Re: [h-cost] delurking with 
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Be glad to! Thanks!
--sue

N Kipar wrote:
> 
> Okay, I'll upload things in batches then and will try to remember not to delete
> stuff before next week, do notify me, Sue, when you are done.
> 
> Nicole
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> Okay, I'll upload things in batches then and will try to remember not to
delete
> stuff before next week, do notify me, Sue, when you are done.

Has my message not gone through? I put my hand up too... I wonder if it has
anything to do with time zones at all... Will you be putting htem up when
you know Sue is finished packing? And will you be giving the addy out
publicly?

I got it back here, but maybe it's not going out further at the same time...

michaela
http://costumes.glittersweet.com


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Subject: Re: Smock pictures available, was Re: [h-cost] delurking with
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 --- michaela <thebruce@ihug.co.nz> wrote: > > Okay, I'll upload things in
batches then and will try to remember not to
> delete
> > stuff before next week, do notify me, Sue, when you are done.
> 
> Has my message not gone through? I put my hand up too... I wonder if it has
> anything to do with time zones at all... Will you be putting htem up when
> you know Sue is finished packing? And will you be giving the addy out
> publicly?
> 
> I got it back here, but maybe it's not going out further at the same time...

Oh sorry Michaela, I just happened to use Sue's mail to reply. I got yours just
fine, I will send the URL to the list when I have uploaded pictures (slow
connection at home, only ISDN). 

Nicole

=====
One of the Three Baroque Lurve Goddess    
http://www.kipar.org/temp/baroque-lurve-goddesses.jpg

Email: nicole@kipar.org
URL: http://www.kipar.org

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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Genie Barrett <genie@jb-av.com>
Subject: Re: Smock pictures available, was Re: [h-cost] delurking with
  a partlet question
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In the heat of battle, N Kipar was heard to exclaim:
>I just wnated to say that I have a load of photos of the smocks in the V&A and
>actually everything else which was worth taking photos of in the British
>Galleries . I took over 400 photos durin my last visit - and the next visit is
>due with even more memory cards next Saturday.
>
>So, are people interested?
>
>Nicole
Nicole, that would be wonderful.

As the originator of the partlet question, I now would like to know how 
that particular neckline is achieved.  If you look close, it is open.  If 
it's a shirt, is it just a few more gathers so that the neck doesn't come 
closed?

the URL again: http://costume.dm.net/gallery/1569.html

Thanks for the info, I don't mind not having to make a partlet, too.  ^_^

Genie B

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michaela wrote:
> Has my message not gone through? I put my hand up too... I wonder if it has
> anything to do with time zones at all.

We might see some weirdness in things coming through, or coming through 
in a few days, due to the big blackout, which CNN says is still 
affecting about "15 million people from Detroit to Ottawa" as I write.

-- 
Cynthia Virtue and/or
Cynthia du Pr Argent
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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: Smock pictures available, was Re: [h-cost] delurking witha
	partlet  question
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You'd still have to make 2 undergarments<g>.  If you look closely at her
chest, just below the major jewel hanging against her throat, and just
above the open vee of her bodice, there's the line of a square-necked
smock running horizontally.
I've always loved this dress, although I think if I ever made it, I'd do
embroidered columbines for the flower slips (in shades of blue) instead
of roses.  And I'd do the gown in some luscious shade of green, or
purple, or tawny-gold.
Bjarne, what kind of silk thread would you recommend for something like
that?
--sue

Genie Barrett wrote:
> 

> As the originator of the partlet question, I now would like to know how
> that particular neckline is achieved.  If you look close, it is open.  If
> it's a shirt, is it just a few more gathers so that the neck doesn't come
> closed?
> 
> the URL again: http://costume.dm.net/gallery/1569.html
> 
> Thanks for the info, I don't mind not having to make a partlet, too.  ^_^
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Subject: [h-cost] Re: Perfect outfit
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I don't really have a fantasy about one "perfect outfit."  But sometimes
I 
*do* fantasize about being able to invest serious time into a high
accuracy 
Viking wardrobe.
-- 
Cathy Raymond <cathy@thyrsus.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

I was sitting here trying to figure out what would be my dream project
when I read Cathy's email and thought, 'that's it!'.  What I really want
is *time*,  uninterrupted time, to be able to focus, play around with,
trial and error any project I want to :)!

Hmmmm, time to buy a lottery ticket and fantasize!

Catherine
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Just when you think you are staring to unterstand a certain era you go
and
find something like this:
English Woman's Smock:
http://emu.man.ac.uk/wagcustom/Display.php?irn=19688&QueryPage=%2Fwagcustom%

252%0DFDtlQuery.php

michaela
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Thank you so much for posting this Michaela, it is gorgeous!  I almost
couldn't believe it was really embroidered until I looked at the
closeup.  

Catherine


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> I guess my problem with "many" is that I seem to remember that
> H-costume has hundreds of members, and I haven't seen much evidence
> that most of them (or even most of the active posters) have SF fannish
> ties.  Though I could be wrong....

I personally wouldn't be surprised if more people have those ties but 
have never talked about them. To some of us, SF fandom is something 
out of our childhood that we've long grown out of. ;)

Creative people tend to gravitate to where they can find other 
creative people. Fandom is one of those places. Role playing games 
like D&D is another. Renn Fairs are still another, as are the SCA and 
other reinactment groups. And many of us have gotten into computers 
so that we can have email access to other like minds.

So, there are probably many ties to these groups (although some may 
be hidden in the distant past.)

It's nice to have a place where one can wear our creative 
constructions. It's a lot more satisfying than sitting at home 
without anyone to share them or having to wait for Halloween to pull 
them out.

I personally have always been interested in costume, historic far 
more than anything else. Shoot, several of my papers and the like for 
high school were historic costuming related (US History: "Clothing 
during the Depression", Senior theses: "Draping of the Greek Chiton" 
and "Clothing during the Life of Charles Dickens.") Halloween was my 
favorite holiday. But that didn't stop me from making a Star Trek 
uniform for my independent study sewing class back in 1968!

Kat
<kat@redtrollforge.com>


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----- Original Message -----
From: "Cynthia Virtue" <cvirtue+dated+1076508925.ed2934@thibault.org>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Friday, August 15, 2003 10:11 AM
Subject: [h-cost] Servers, messages, etc.


> michaela wrote:
> > Has my message not gone through? I put my hand up too... I wonder if it
has
> > anything to do with time zones at all.
>
> We might see some weirdness in things coming through, or coming through
> in a few days, due to the big blackout, which CNN says is still
> affecting about "15 million people from Detroit to Ottawa" as I write.
>
> --
> Cynthia Virtue and/or
> Cynthia du Pr Argent


Further North than Ottawa even! I *just* moved to Northern Ontario
(Sudbury)from the Prairies, now I'm wondering if that was such a good idea.
:-) The black outs are supposed to continue on for the next couple of days
according to the news here, I'm just checking my mail while I still have
some power. The lights went out sometime around 4 pm yesterday, and just
came back on one hour ago. This wouldn't be so bad if I had all of my
camping stuff here, but all of my worldly posessions seem to be trapped
somewhere between Saskatoon and Toronto. Getting twitchy without at least
some hand sewing to do...

Sheridan



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So, are people interested?

Nicole
=====

Was Janet Arnold a costumer!!!!

Or in otherwords, yes please :).

Catherine
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] delurking with a partlet question
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Michaela said:
>>>Hooray:) Someone else on this wavelength;)

>>>>There are heaps of shifts with embroidery on the top half as well as 
the
sleeves, most that I've seen are rather sparcely decorated (stripes etc) 
but
that one you mention is also at Drea's site, I'm sure I posted these just
recently to the list...


I've been collecting picture of extant shirts and smocks for a couple of 
years now.   Here's my thumbnail reference gallery:
<http://home.earthlink.net/~magdlena/shirt/gallery/gallery.html> 
It's not complete, but I'm moving to an new site next month, and I'll put 
up my full gallery then.


For more information, look in:
 
Arnold, Janet (1977). "Elizabethan and Jacobean smocks and shirts". 
Waffen-und Kostumkunde; Zeitschrift der Gessellschadt fur Historiche 
Waffen -und Kostumkunde (Vol 19, Issue 2). 

Arnold, Janet. (1988). Queen Elizabeth's Wardrobe Unlocked . Leeds, [Eng.] 
: Maney.

Cunnington, C. W., & Cunnington, P. (1951). The history of underclothes. 
London, M. Joseph.

Cunnington, C. W., & Cunnington, P. (1981). The history of underclothes. 
New rev. ed. London ; Boston : Faber and Faber.

Digby, George Frederick Wingfield. (1963). Elizabethan embroidery. London: 
Faber and Faber.

Hart, Avril & North, Susan. (1998). Fashion in detail : from the 17th and 
18th centuries. New York : Rizzoli.

Linthicum, Marie Channing. (1963). Costume in the drama of Shakespeare and 
his contemporaries. New York, Russell & Russell.


There are lots of other sources as well, of course, but those are some of 
my favorites.

-Magdalena


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Subject: Re: [h-cost] delurking with a partlet question
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Christina/Magdalena-
These photos are GREAT!  Is there anyway you can permit them to be 'blown
up' when clicked on?  I'd love to see the details, especially the embroidery
patterns!, close up.

thanks!
(back to mostly lurking)
Marie
>
> I've been collecting picture of extant shirts and smocks for a couple of
> years now.   Here's my thumbnail reference gallery:
> <http://home.earthlink.net/~magdlena/shirt/gallery/gallery.html>
> It's not complete, but I'm moving to an new site next month, and I'll put
> up my full gallery then.
>
>
>
> -Magdalena


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>> If anyone is interested I could upload them temporarily onto my site 
>> (they
> are
>> huge, but I don't have time to crop them or do anything with them, I 
>> have
> them
>> on my HD for study purposes).
>> So, are people interested?

Yes!  I am definitely interested.  After erasing my digital camera card 
on the train to Bath, I would dearly love to see if you caught anything 
I might have lost... ;)

Sarah
http://www.elizabethanlady.com

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Subject: [h-cost] Re: Smock pictures available
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Yes, very much so!!

LynnD

>So, are people interested?
>
>Nicole
>=====
>
>Was Janet Arnold a costumer!!!!
>
>Or in otherwords, yes please :).
>
>Catherine
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-- 
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Dream Garb; was List down again?
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Sue Clemenger" <mooncat@in-tch.com>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 3:37 PM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] List down again?


> Quiet, I think.
> My life is pretty chaotic right now, or I'd probably be posting.
> Maybe we should start a new thread....
> hmmm.....
> hmmmm.......
> Okay, everybody....
> If y'all had the chance to make one "perfect outfit," and had up to 2
> years to complete it, what would you make, and why? This can be a
> special costume, or garb, or a very special dress.
> Since this is a moderately-priced fantasy <g>, we'll assume that we all
> get the basic fabrics and doodads and whatnots that we need, without
> blowing our entire theoretical budgets on that hand-made 100% silk
> velvet that I'm sure some of us drool over in our crazy moments....
> --sue
>
> "Saragrace T. Knauf" wrote:
> >
> > Or is it just quiet...am I the only one that writes about it?  I must
get a
> > life!
> >
> > Sg


Hmm, dream garb,  besides the fact I can't stick to any one period for any
length of time, I also do dance costumes. Keeps me out of trouble when I'm
not working. :-)

Right now though, I think I have three outfits that I would love to do. One
is a full 16th C Turkish ladies court garb all in layers and layers of multi
coloured patterned silks and linens. A forest green and gold Elizabethan
with emboidered and beaded wheat sheaf motif. And the white outfit from the
Darmstadt Madonna, there is just something about that 'hat' she is wearing
that absolutely caught my fancy!

I am collecting fabrics and notions for these outfits, but unless I win the
lottery soon it's going to take a couple of years to pull any of them
together. Sigh. I want it all now! :-)

Sheridan



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Marie asked:
>>>Is there anyway you can permit them to be 'blown
up' when clicked on?  I'd love to see the details, especially the 
embroidery
patterns!, close up.


No.   The newer version of this page has the citation of where I found the 
pictures, so that viewers can find them if interested.  These pictures are 
not my copyright, and showing them whole, in color, and full sized would 
violate the copyright holders' rights.   The thumbnails are really more 
than they ought to be, but I use this page to reference specific shirts 
and to show people some of the variety that is out there.    I 
particularly suggest _Fashion in Detail_ for killer close-ups of 
embroidery patterns.

Sorry!
-Christina

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From: "Beteena Paradise" <bkessinger@ureach.com>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
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Subject: [h-cost] isabel de valois dress
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After the "dream dress" question, I looked more seriously at my dream dress
with an eye to reproduction. What do you think of the sleeves? At first I
thought the sleeves were ornamented in gold dragonflies. Upon closer
inspection, it looks like the sleeves are slit in a spiral pattern and the
"dragonflies" are actually holding the sleeve together. They even look like
they might be points.

full image:
http://www.mostlymedieval.com/isabel.htm
sleeve detail:
http://www.mostlymedieval.com/sleeves.htm

What do you think?

Teena

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Subject: [h-cost] 
	What days is the LA garment/textile shopping district open?
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Hi all, I was visting the LA garment/textile shopping district site and
didn't find anything which told me when it was open for shopping.  Do any of
you know?

I figured Sundays are out...what about Saturdays and evenings?

Thanks

Sg


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Subject: Re: [h-cost] isabel de valois dress
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This dress is on my extensive list of Things To Do. If you are serious about wanting to reproduce it, get your hands on a copy of "Dynasties" which has a very big, detailed, full-color reproduction of this portrait. In that book you can clearly see that the sleeves ARE slashed in a spiral fashion and the slashes are held together with large jeweled aiglets (points) on very short ribbons so that they stand out from the surface of the fabric.This portrait is also a great thing to show to people who try to tell you that pink isn't period!! Oh to be able to get my grubby little hands on some of the figured velvet it seems to be made from......


Karen



--- "Beteena Paradise" <bkessinger@ureach.com> wrote:

After the "dream dress" question, I looked more seriously at my dream dress
with an eye to reproduction. What do you think of the sleeves? At first I
thought the sleeves were ornamented in gold dragonflies. Upon closer
inspection, it looks like the sleeves are slit in a spiral pattern and the
"dragonflies" are actually holding the sleeve together. They even look like
they might be points.

full image:
http://www.mostlymedieval.com/isabel.htm
sleeve detail:
http://www.mostlymedieval.com/sleeves.htm

What do you think?

Teena

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Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 12:34:38 -0700
From: Kimiko Small <kimiko@kimiko1.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] isabel de valois dress
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At 03:09 PM 8/15/2003 -0400, you wrote:
>Upon closer
>inspection, it looks like the sleeves are slit in a spiral pattern and the
>"dragonflies" are actually holding the sleeve together. They even look like
>they might be points.

I have a pretty big photo of this dress, as it too is a "dream" dress of 
mine, and I always thought those were points holding the edges closed. 
Points seem to be a common decoration, especially gold ones.

And the slits to my eye seem to not be fully spiral, but stop and start in 
the spiral pattern up the sleeve.

What I always wondered was if that red material was embroidered or woven 
with that gold pattern. Any ideas?

Kimiko


Kimiko Small
Costumer, Fiber Artist, Web Designer, Wife and Mother
kimiko@kimiko1.com; http://www.kimiko1.com
"When there is fear, there is no creativity" ~ C. Lowell

Graphic Intern at Costume Gallery
http://www.costumegallery.com

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From: Kimiko Small <kimiko@kimiko1.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost]  What days is the LA garment/textile shopping  district
 open?
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At 12:35 PM 8/15/2003 -0700, you wrote:
>Hi all, I was visting the LA garment/textile shopping district site and
>didn't find anything which told me when it was open for shopping.  Do any of
>you know?
>
>I figured Sundays are out...what about Saturdays and evenings?
>
>Thanks
>
>Sg

Hiya

I have in my notes that Saturdays are the busiest days, as many of the 
wholesalers are open to the retailers as well. I also noted that many of 
the jobbers are Jewish, so they might be closed on Saturday, and close 
early on Fridays. I presume they would be open on Sundays, but heard 
nothing definite on that. Most if not all stores are open 10-5, Mon-Friday, 
and I think those are Saturday hours as well. That's all from my notes.

Anyone know specifics on Sunday? A friend is planning for a weekend trip at 
the end of this month and is curious about Sunday.

hth, and tia.

Kimiko



Kimiko Small
Costumer, Fiber Artist, Web Designer, Wife and Mother
kimiko@kimiko1.com; http://www.kimiko1.com
"When there is fear, there is no creativity" ~ C. Lowell

Graphic Intern at Costume Gallery
http://www.costumegallery.com

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 Greetings all!

 Quick question: does anyone on this list have any experience with banner
making? What I am wanting to do is a larger scale banner as a gift for some
friends in the SCA. So far the idea is to have the ground in a linen with
the device done in handmade felt appliqu with wool embroidered details.

 What I am looking for is any tips and tricks, success/horror stories and
the
 like. I am also wondering if a quilter's frame would be a good investment
 for a project like this, or if I just need a large table.

 Inquiring mind wants to know!  :-)

 Thanks in advance,

 Sheridan



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Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 17:35:31 -0400
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Banners
From: Grace Morris <grace.morris@providenceday.org>
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
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If you go here:

http://moas.atlantia.sca.org/topics.htm

there are links to banner making sites.

Grace/Jessamyn
jessamynscloset.com

> From: "Sheridan & Shane" <shooie@sprint.ca>
> Reply-To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
> Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 16:23:05 -0400
> To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
> Subject: [h-cost] Banners
> 
> 
> Greetings all!
> 
> Quick question: does anyone on this list have any experience with banner
> making? What I am wanting to do is a larger scale banner as a gift for some
> friends in the SCA. So far the idea is to have the ground in a linen with
> the device done in handmade felt appliqu with wool embroidered details.
> 
> What I am looking for is any tips and tricks, success/horror stories and
> the
> like. I am also wondering if a quilter's frame would be a good investment
> for a project like this, or if I just need a large table.
> 
> Inquiring mind wants to know!  :-)
> 
> Thanks in advance,
> 
> Sheridan
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume


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Subject: Re: [h-cost] isabel de valois dress
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Kimiko Small" <kimiko@kimiko1.com>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Friday, August 15, 2003 3:34 PM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] isabel de valois dress


> At 03:09 PM 8/15/2003 -0400, you wrote:
> What I always wondered was if that red material was embroidered or woven
> with that gold pattern. Any ideas?
>
> Kimiko
>
 I have wondered the same thing. I notice that the embroidery bordering the
overskirt seems to be identical in thread and style to the overall
decoration. My vote would be for embroidered.

Teena

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I always understood the sleeves to be spirally-cut, or at least
spirally-slashed (which is probably how I'd recreate it), with the
slashes held together with pairs of points/aiglets.
I'm not a textile expert, but I believe that the fabric for the dress
would be a velvet (perhaps a voided velvet, or even a cut-and-voided
velvet), with the background (rose) color done in a satin weave, and the
design formed out of pile.  I saw examples of extant velvets from this
time period that were woven just that way (Henry Gallery textile
collection in Seattle, WA).  One was a goldish background with the
design done in plummy purple.  The other was a cherry-red satin with the
design in green pile (very, very much a Christmas combo! <g>).
--sue, who's always liked the dress, too....

Kimiko Small wrote:
> 
> At 03:09 PM 8/15/2003 -0400, you wrote:
> >Upon closer
> >inspection, it looks like the sleeves are slit in a spiral pattern and the
> >"dragonflies" are actually holding the sleeve together. They even look like
> >they might be points.
> 
> I have a pretty big photo of this dress, as it too is a "dream" dress of
> mine, and I always thought those were points holding the edges closed.
> Points seem to be a common decoration, especially gold ones.
> 
> And the slits to my eye seem to not be fully spiral, but stop and start in
> the spiral pattern up the sleeve.
> 
> What I always wondered was if that red material was embroidered or woven
> with that gold pattern. Any ideas?
> 
> Kimiko
> 
> Kimiko Small
> Costumer, Fiber Artist, Web Designer, Wife and Mother
> kimiko@kimiko1.com; http://www.kimiko1.com
> "When there is fear, there is no creativity" ~ C. Lowell
> 
> Graphic Intern at Costume Gallery
> http://www.costumegallery.com
> 
> _______________________________________________
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Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 14:12:41 -0700
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Lynn Downward <LDownward@chori.org>
Subject: Re: [h-cost]  What days is the LA garment/textile shopping 
 district  open?
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I'm not sure about weekends; any time I've been to the garment 
district I've been at Costume College, with classes on Saturdays and 
Sundays.  I DO know, however, that most stores close around 5, some 
stay open until 5:30 and the whole place is shut tighter than a drum 
by 5:45.  Bergers and Bohemian (bead stores) are closed 4-4:30, 
depending on their mood, for all I can tell.  We went to Boho 
arriving at 4 and they were shut even though the sign said they were 
open until 4:30.  Now we go there first if we go at all. B. Black & 
Sons (wonderful, wonderful wools) on Los Angeles is usually open 
until 5:30 - and on weekdays they open early (8? 9 for certain).

Happy shopping,

LynnD
The proud owner of 20 yards of various wools and wool/silk blends 
from B. Black thanks to last weeks shopping trip.



>At 12:35 PM 8/15/2003 -0700, you wrote:
>>Hi all, I was visting the LA garment/textile shopping district site and
>>didn't find anything which told me when it was open for shopping.  Do any of
>>you know?
>>
>>I figured Sundays are out...what about Saturdays and evenings?
>>
>>Thanks
>>
>>Sg
>
>Hiya
>
>I have in my notes that Saturdays are the busiest days, as many of 
>the wholesalers are open to the retailers as well. I also noted that 
>many of the jobbers are Jewish, so they might be closed on Saturday, 
>and close early on Fridays. I presume they would be open on Sundays, 
>but heard nothing definite on that. Most if not all stores are open 
>10-5, Mon-Friday, and I think those are Saturday hours as well. 
>That's all from my notes.
>
>Anyone know specifics on Sunday? A friend is planning for a weekend 
>trip at the end of this month and is curious about Sunday.
>
>hth, and tia.
>
>Kimiko
>
>
>
>Kimiko Small
>Costumer, Fiber Artist, Web Designer, Wife and Mother
>kimiko@kimiko1.com; http://www.kimiko1.com
>"When there is fear, there is no creativity" ~ C. Lowell
>
>Graphic Intern at Costume Gallery
>http://www.costumegallery.com
>
>_______________________________________________
>h-costume mailing list
>h-costume@mail.indra.com
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-- 
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From: Dawn Jacobson <dme_maud@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: [h-cost]  What days is the LA garment/textile shopping district
	open?
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--- "Saragrace T. Knauf" <saragrace@earthlink.net>
wrote:
> Hi all, I was visting the LA garment/textile
> shopping district site and
> didn't find anything which told me when it was open
> for shopping.  Do any of
> you know?
> 
> I figured Sundays are out...what about Saturdays and
> evenings?
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Sg

As Kimiko noted, many of the jobbers are Israeli, so
most of the shops are closed on Saturdays. Berger's
Beads is definitely closed; Moon Fabrics might be open
(call them to double-check). While some of the stores
will be open, it won't be as extensive as during the
week. Almost everybody is shut on Sundays except
Michael Levine's.

Because the jobbers are normally supplying wholesale
clients, their usual business hours are 8:00 a.m. -
5:00 p.m.

Dawn

=====
Dawn Jacobson
Vallejo, CA, USA

Clothes are just the costumes we wear every day.
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From: "Dianne & Greg Stucki" <goofy1@suscom.net>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Banners
Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 17:15:34 -0400
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I would think you'd be fine with just a large table.

Dianne
----- Original Message -----
From: "Sheridan & Shane" <shooie@sprint.ca>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Friday, August 15, 2003 4:23 PM
Subject: [h-cost] Banners


>
>  Greetings all!
>
>  Quick question: does anyone on this list have any experience with banner
> making? What I am wanting to do is a larger scale banner as a gift for
some
> friends in the SCA. So far the idea is to have the ground in a linen with
> the device done in handmade felt appliqu with wool embroidered details.
>
>  What I am looking for is any tips and tricks, success/horror stories and
> the
>  like. I am also wondering if a quilter's frame would be a good investment
>  for a project like this, or if I just need a large table.
>
>  Inquiring mind wants to know!  :-)
>
>  Thanks in advance,
>
>  Sheridan
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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From: "Saragrace T. Knauf" <saragrace@earthlink.net>
To: "'Historical Costume'" <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: RE: [h-cost]  What days is the LA garment/textile shopping  district
	open?
Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 14:22:53 -0700
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I did find a number to call.  This is the deal.  Most stores(~1000)  are
open M-S 10am to 5pm.   About 200 stores are open on Sundays 10 am to ~4pm.

Thanks,

Sg


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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Fri Aug 15 17:32:12 2003
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Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 22:25:17 +0100 (BST)
From: =?iso-8859-1?q?N=20Kipar?= <nicolas_fouquet@yahoo.com>
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Subject: [h-cost] 
	1st batch V&A photos: 2 shifts, 16th c. feather fan & fabric
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There you are, I will leave the photos up there for a week or so until Sue has
them too.

The blackworkd embroidered shift is one Drea talks about on her web site and
has photos up. The other one is a 17th c. one, sorry the case was very dark,
but some of the emb roidered motifs came out nicely. The fan is 16th c.
apparently, and so is the fabric & applique.

http://www.kipar.org/temp/VA/

Other batches to follow next week. I have photos from the Ashmolean, York
museums, Ely museum (oops, no, i had to sign a permission, drat!), Museum of
London, Dover Museum, Maidstone museum etc. I shall keep all the late 17th c.
stuff for myself for now, it is just far too much to share, and will upload
batches of the earlier stuff.

Nicole

=====
Artemis - One of the Three Baroque Lurve Goddess    
http://www.kipar.org/temp/baroque-lurve-goddesses.jpg

Email: nicole@kipar.org
URL: http://www.kipar.org

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Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 19:18:05 +0100
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Jean Waddie <anne@montgomerie.demon.co.uk>
Subject: [h-cost] costuming/SF/etc WAS what's your degree in?
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Catherine Olanich Raymond <cathy@thyrsus.com> wrote
>On Thursday 14 August 2003 06:10 pm, Jean Waddie wrote:
>> I don't know how it comes about, but there's a big circular SF -
>> costuming - re-enactment - military history - miniature wargaming -
>> roleplaying - computer programming thingy.  You tend to find a lot of
>> crossover between those interests.  I centre in re-enactment, and most
>> of the people I know there also do one or more of the others.  Some of
>> the links are obvious, some less so.
>>
>[snip]
>
>
>
>It's interesting that you say that, Jean.  My husband would agree with you.
>
>He's also participated in all the interests you named above, except for
>costuming and reenactment (unless you count his occasional participation in
>the SCA....)
>
Well there you are - presumably some friends from one of the other 
interests dragged him along?
-- 
Jean Waddie
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To: "'Historical Costume'" <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: RE: [h-cost] 1st batch V&A photos: 2 shifts, 16th c. feather fan &
	fabric
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Thanks Nicole and thanks to Catherine who said "was Janet Arnold a costume
Designer"!  That was pretty funny.  Over here in America that is rendered
"Does a bear s#$% in the woods?"  Tee hee.

Very cool, I have a question about the shift.  Are any of the designs
repeated?

Also, do these designs come from that needle work pattern book everyone
talks about ...the school..something?  If not, does anyone know if all the
designs have been copied to some book somewhere?  I have the ones in Arnold,
but I just love them and would really like to do them all.

Thanks, Sg


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From: sewinggoddess@att.net
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Banners
Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 23:41:38 +0000
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I've actually done three *huge* SCA banners.  I found that a large table to draft the applique pieces on is the biggest help. 
Having the full size pieces drafted on paper first  to really helped me vizualize the overall finished size of the banners.

  I cheated with my applique and used a lined applique techinque to turn all the little corners and edges and laurel wreath 
details. Lined applique is where you line the fabric of the applique on the right side of the fabric with a fusible interfacing. 
Make a small cut in the interfacing ( or a large one... depending on the size of the applique)  and turn the applique so the 
fusible side of the interfacing is on the back and the right side of the fabric is facing out.  Lay your applique in place, press 
lightly and it stays in place until you edge stitch or slip stitch in place.  I did this with Velvet applique on a satin background. I 
think it helped me keep my sanity!  
   If you have any other questions in mind, just e-mail me. I'll be glad to help. 

Crissy 
SewingGoddess@att.net
> 
>  Greetings all!
> 
>  Quick question: does anyone on this list have any experience with banner
> making? What I am wanting to do is a larger scale banner as a gift for some
> friends in the SCA. So far the idea is to have the ground in a linen with
> the device done in handmade felt appliqu with wool embroidered details.
> 
>  What I am looking for is any tips and tricks, success/horror stories and
> the
>  like. I am also wondering if a quilter's frame would be a good investment
>  for a project like this, or if I just need a large table.
> 
>  Inquiring mind wants to know!  :-)
> 
>  Thanks in advance,
> 
>  Sheridan
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Fri Aug 15 19:54:37 2003
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From: "Beteena Paradise" <bkessinger@ureach.com>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
References: <200308152341.h7FNfhfw019919@net.indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Banners
Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 19:54:02 -0400
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Status: RO

This sounds like a really cool technique, but I am having a little trouble
visualizing it. I know, I am a dork! Can you elaborate? Thanks!

Teena
----- Original Message -----
From: <sewinggoddess@att.net>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Friday, August 15, 2003 7:41 PM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Banners


> I've actually done three *huge* SCA banners.  I found that a large table
to draft the applique pieces on is the biggest help.
> Having the full size pieces drafted on paper first  to really helped me
vizualize the overall finished size of the banners.
>
>   I cheated with my applique and used a lined applique techinque to turn
all the little corners and edges and laurel wreath
> details. Lined applique is where you line the fabric of the applique on
the right side of the fabric with a fusible interfacing.
> Make a small cut in the interfacing ( or a large one... depending on the
size of the applique)  and turn the applique so the
> fusible side of the interfacing is on the back and the right side of the
fabric is facing out.  Lay your applique in place, press
> lightly and it stays in place until you edge stitch or slip stitch in
place.  I did this with Velvet applique on a satin background. I
> think it helped me keep my sanity!
>    If you have any other questions in mind, just e-mail me. I'll be glad
to help.
>
> Crissy
> SewingGoddess@att.net
> >
> >  Greetings all!
> >
> >  Quick question: does anyone on this list have any experience with
banner
> > making? What I am wanting to do is a larger scale banner as a gift for
some
> > friends in the SCA. So far the idea is to have the ground in a linen
with
> > the device done in handmade felt appliqu with wool embroidered details.
> >
> >  What I am looking for is any tips and tricks, success/horror stories
and
> > the
> >  like. I am also wondering if a quilter's frame would be a good
investment
> >  for a project like this, or if I just need a large table.
> >
> >  Inquiring mind wants to know!  :-)
> >
> >  Thanks in advance,
> >
> >  Sheridan
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > h-costume mailing list
> > h-costume@mail.indra.com
> > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
>
>

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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Fri Aug 15 19:59:28 2003
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Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 19:57:08 -0400
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Genie Barrett <genie@jb-av.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost]  1st batch V&A photos: 2 shifts, 16th c. feather
  fan & fabric
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In the heat of battle, N Kipar was heard to exclaim:
>There you are, I will leave the photos up there for a week or so until Sue has
>them too.



>http://www.kipar.org/temp/VA/
Thanks so very much.  It helps to see these.  I did have to brighten up my 
screen to maximum to see them, but they are awesome once I did.

Genie B

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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Fri Aug 15 19:59:43 2003
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From: Catherine Olanich Raymond <cathy@thyrsus.com>
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: Perfect outfit
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On Friday 15 August 2003 10:25 am, Catherine Kinsey wrote:
> I was sitting here trying to figure out what would be my dream project
> when I read Cathy's email and thought, 'that's it!'.  What I really want
> is *time*,  uninterrupted time, to be able to focus, play around with,
> trial and error any project I want to :)!

Exactly.  That's what I need, too. :-)

-- 
Cathy Raymond <cathy@thyrsus.com>

“No man is rich enough to buy back his 
past.”  Oscar Wilde

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From: Catherine Olanich Raymond <cathy@thyrsus.com>
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Servers, messages, etc.
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On Friday 15 August 2003 11:27 am, Sheridan & Shane wrote:
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Cynthia Virtue" <cvirtue+dated+1076508925.ed2934@thibault.org>
> To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
> Sent: Friday, August 15, 2003 10:11 AM
> Subject: [h-cost] Servers, messages, etc.
>
> > michaela wrote:
> > > Has my message not gone through? I put my hand up too... I wonder if it
>
> has
>
> > > anything to do with time zones at all.
> >
> > We might see some weirdness in things coming through, or coming through
> > in a few days, due to the big blackout, which CNN says is still
> > affecting about "15 million people from Detroit to Ottawa" as I write.

I agree.  We never lost power in the Philadelphia area, but New York City did, 
and the "Am I Period or Not?" site has been down since last night.

-- 
Cathy Raymond <cathy@thyrsus.com>

“No man is rich enough to buy back his 
past.”  Oscar Wilde

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From: Catherine Olanich Raymond <cathy@thyrsus.com>
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: whats your degree in
Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 20:08:59 -0400
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On Friday 15 August 2003 10:58 am, kat@grendal.rain.com wrote:
> > I guess my problem with "many" is that I seem to remember that
> > H-costume has hundreds of members, and I haven't seen much evidence
> > that most of them (or even most of the active posters) have SF fannish
> > ties.  Though I could be wrong....
>
> I personally wouldn't be surprised if more people have those ties but
> have never talked about them. To some of us, SF fandom is something
> out of our childhood that we've long grown out of. ;)

<shrug>  I'm always willing to be proven wrong, as I said.  I'd just like to 
point out that I still believe that it's never too late to have a happy 
childhood.  ;-)


> Creative people tend to gravitate to where they can find other
> creative people. Fandom is one of those places. Role playing games
> like D&D is another. Renn Fairs are still another, as are the SCA and
> other reinactment groups. And many of us have gotten into computers
> so that we can have email access to other like minds.
>
> So, there are probably many ties to these groups (although some may
> be hidden in the distant past.)
>
> It's nice to have a place where one can wear our creative
> constructions. It's a lot more satisfying than sitting at home
> without anyone to share them or having to wait for Halloween to pull
> them out.

True.  (Though I have appeared in garb at my office, once in a great while, on 
major holidays.)  :-)

> I personally have always been interested in costume, historic far
> more than anything else. 

I have never really been interested in costume, other than in historic 
costume.


>Shoot, several of my papers and the like for
> high school were historic costuming related (US History: "Clothing
> during the Depression", Senior theses: "Draping of the Greek Chiton"
> and "Clothing during the Life of Charles Dickens.") Halloween was my
> favorite holiday. 

Mine too.  

-- 
Cathy Raymond <cathy@thyrsus.com>

“No man is rich enough to buy back his 
past.”  Oscar Wilde

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-Those medieval guys sure knew how to dress.  He's got a great costume.
Margaret B

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From: Catherine Olanich Raymond <cathy@thyrsus.com>
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] costuming/SF/etc WAS what's your degree in?
Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 20:13:49 -0400
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On Friday 15 August 2003 02:18 pm, Jean Waddie wrote:
> Catherine Olanich Raymond <cathy@thyrsus.com> wrote
>
> >On Thursday 14 August 2003 06:10 pm, Jean Waddie wrote:
> >> I don't know how it comes about, but there's a big circular SF -
> >> costuming - re-enactment - military history - miniature wargaming -
> >> roleplaying - computer programming thingy.  You tend to find a lot of
> >> crossover between those interests.  I centre in re-enactment, and most
> >> of the people I know there also do one or more of the others.  Some of
> >> the links are obvious, some less so.
> >
> >[snip]
> >
> >
> >
> >It's interesting that you say that, Jean.  My husband would agree with
> > you.
> >
> >He's also participated in all the interests you named above, except for
> >costuming and reenactment (unless you count his occasional participation
> > in the SCA....)
>
> Well there you are - presumably some friends from one of the other
> interests dragged him along?


No, no dragging was required, but circumstances have made it inconvenient for 
him to be continuously active in SCA.

-- 
Cathy Raymond <cathy@thyrsus.com>

“No man is rich enough to buy back his 
past.”  Oscar Wilde

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From: KATHRYN WOLTERS <albrakat7@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost]  What days is the LA garment/textile shopping district
	open?
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Actually there ARE some stores open on sunday. The area seems to close up shop (pardon the pun) by 4 or 5pm. I usually do'nt stay out shopping there past about 2:30p--so as to avoid the awful traffic getting home.
Albra

"Saragrace T. Knauf" <saragrace@earthlink.net> wrote:
Hi all, I was visting the LA garment/textile shopping district site and
didn't find anything which told me when it was open for shopping. Do any of
you know?

I figured Sundays are out...what about Saturdays and evenings?

Thanks

Sg


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Whoooo! B.Black and sons--I have'nt been there yet(and I'm planning a foray down there soon)--can someone kindly tell me their address?
thanks mucho--
Albra

Lynn Downward <LDownward@chori.org> wrote:
I'm not sure about weekends; any time I've been to the garment 
district I've been at Costume College, with classes on Saturdays and 
Sundays. I DO know, however, that most stores close around 5, some 
stay open until 5:30 and the whole place is shut tighter than a drum 
by 5:45. Bergers and Bohemian (bead stores) are closed 4-4:30, 
depending on their mood, for all I can tell. We went to Boho 
arriving at 4 and they were shut even though the sign said they were 
open until 4:30. Now we go there first if we go at all. B. Black & 
Sons (wonderful, wonderful wools) on Los Angeles is usually open 
until 5:30 - and on weekdays they open early (8? 9 for certain).

Happy shopping,

LynnD
The proud owner of 20 yards of various wools and wool/silk blends 
from B. Black thanks to last weeks shopping trip.



>At 12:35 PM 8/15/2003 -0700, you wrote:
>>Hi all, I was visting the LA garment/textile shopping district site and
>>didn't find anything which told me when it was open for shopping. Do any of
>>you know?
>>
>>I figured Sundays are out...what about Saturdays and evenings?
>>
>>Thanks
>>
>>Sg
>
>Hiya
>
>I have in my notes that Saturdays are the busiest days, as many of 
>the wholesalers are open to the retailers as well. I also noted that 
>many of the jobbers are Jewish, so they might be closed on Saturday, 
>and close early on Fridays. I presume they would be open on Sundays, 
>but heard nothing definite on that. Most if not all stores are open 
>10-5, Mon-Friday, and I think those are Saturday hours as well. 
>That's all from my notes.
>
>Anyone know specifics on Sunday? A friend is planning for a weekend 
>trip at the end of this month and is curious about Sunday.
>
>hth, and tia.
>
>Kimiko
>
>
>
>Kimiko Small
>Costumer, Fiber Artist, Web Designer, Wife and Mother
>kimiko@kimiko1.com; http://www.kimiko1.com
>"When there is fear, there is no creativity" ~ C. Lowell
>
>Graphic Intern at Costume Gallery
>http://www.costumegallery.com
>
>_______________________________________________
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Banners
Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 20:59:34 -0400
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Hey thanks! :-)

I have used a similar technique for making dags: sew first, cut later, turn
out. Definitely a good idea, I'll use it for banner #2. I will definitely be
taking you up on your offer for help on that one!

I have assisted with a small variety of Church banners when I was a gangling
youth, both my Mother and my Grandmother would volunteer for that job
whenever needed, but this will be the first time I have taken on this kind
of project on my own.

This whole thing was meant to be a sort of 'technique sampler'. I recently
learned how to make felt, so I plan to make, shape and dye the felt myself.
I recently picked embroidery up again, and plan on using a variety of early
period stitches as embellishment, also in wool. Throw in a bit of beadwork
to add a bit of sparkle and voila, one big Baronial banner.

Any other tips and tricks are very much appreciated!

Sheridan

Crissy wrote:

> I've actually done three *huge* SCA banners.  I found that a large table
to draft the applique pieces on is the biggest help.
> Having the full size pieces drafted on paper first  to really helped me
vizualize the overall finished size of the banners.
>
>   I cheated with my applique and used a lined applique techinque to turn
all the little corners and edges and laurel wreath
> details. Lined applique is where you line the fabric of the applique on
the right side of the fabric with a fusible interfacing.
> Make a small cut in the interfacing ( or a large one... depending on the
size of the applique)  and turn the applique so the
> fusible side of the interfacing is on the back and the right side of the
fabric is facing out.  Lay your applique in place, press
> lightly and it stays in place until you edge stitch or slip stitch in
place.  I did this with Velvet applique on a satin background. I
> think it helped me keep my sanity!
>    If you have any other questions in mind, just e-mail me. I'll be glad
to help.
>
> Crissy
> SewingGoddess@att.net
> >
> >  Greetings all!
> >
> >  Quick question: does anyone on this list have any experience with
banner
> > making? What I am wanting to do is a larger scale banner as a gift for
some
> > friends in the SCA. So far the idea is to have the ground in a linen
with
> > the device done in handmade felt appliqu with wool embroidered details.
> >
> >  What I am looking for is any tips and tricks, success/horror stories
and
> > the
> >  like. I am also wondering if a quilter's frame would be a good
investment
> >  for a project like this, or if I just need a large table.
> >
> >  Inquiring mind wants to know!  :-)
> >
> >  Thanks in advance,
> >
> >  Sheridan




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Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 07:40:36 -0700
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Heather Rose Jones <hrjones@socrates.berkeley.edu>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Perfect outfit
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At 1:19 AM -0700 8/15/03, Carolyn Kayta Barrows wrote:
>>  > If y'all had the chance to make one "perfect outfit," and had up to 2
>>>  years to complete it, what would you make, and why? This can be a
>>>  special costume, or garb, or a very special dress.
>>
>>I don't really have a fantasy about one "perfect outfit."  But sometimes I
>>*do* fantasize about being able to invest serious time into a high accuracy
>>Viking wardrobe.
>
>Yeah, like she said.  I'd want a whole weekend's worth of 
>Edwardians, including changing clothes for several daytime 
>activities and night-time ones, plus traveling clothes to get to the 
>event and back, plus night-wear and a peignoir, and, of course, 
>underwear and petticoats, hats, purses, shoes, etc.

And that essential accessory ... a lady's maid!

Heather
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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Fri Aug 15 21:22:25 2003
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From: "Saragrace T. Knauf" <saragrace@earthlink.net>
To: "'Historical Costume'" <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: RE: [h-cost] Banners
Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 18:21:55 -0700
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I was surprised when I found that doll makers almost solely sew first cut
later.  Tracing seamlines makes so much sense, especially for beginning
sewers.  I recently heared of a very respetable tailor who sews this way
most of the time.  Though it does double your tracing/cut out time.   I am
amazed at how many still don't get the concept of cuttting on the actual
cutting line and sewing on the seam line line.....I almost have to harp on
my students to do it...it just makes such common sense to me...

Sg


-----Original Message-----
From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com] On
Behalf Of Sheridan & Shane
Sent: Friday, August 15, 2003 6:00 PM
To: Historical Costume
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Banners


Hey thanks! :-)

I have used a similar technique for making dags: sew first, cut later, turn
out. Definitely a good idea, I'll use it for banner #2. I will definitely be
taking you up on your offer for help on that one!

I 


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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Fri Aug 15 21:25:11 2003
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From: KATHRYN WOLTERS <albrakat7@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Perfect outfit
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
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And my fantasy would be an orchestrated event --at which I could wear an entire wardrobe of Regency clothes over the course of an entire week at some country manor :) Maybe a dozen or so  other people participating. There would be all sorts of outings, pic-nics, riding, etc . And I would need not only a good ladies' maid --but an excellent butler and cook , as well:)LOL!
Albra

Heather Rose Jones <hrjones@socrates.berkeley.edu> wrote:
At 1:19 AM -0700 8/15/03, Carolyn Kayta Barrows wrote:
>> > If y'all had the chance to make one "perfect outfit," and had up to 2
>>> years to complete it, what would you make, and why? This can be a
>>> special costume, or garb, or a very special dress.
>>
>>I don't really have a fantasy about one "perfect outfit." But sometimes I
>>*do* fantasize about being able to invest serious time into a high accuracy
>>Viking wardrobe.
>
>Yeah, like she said. I'd want a whole weekend's worth of 
>Edwardians, including changing clothes for several daytime 
>activities and night-time ones, plus traveling clothes to get to the 
>event and back, plus night-wear and a peignoir, and, of course, 
>underwear and petticoats, hats, purses, shoes, etc.

And that essential accessory ... a lady's maid!

Heather
-- 
*****
Heather Rose Jones
hrjones@socrates.berkeley.edu
*****
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----- Original Message -----
From: "KATHRYN WOLTERS" <albrakat7@yahoo.com>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Friday, August 15, 2003 9:24 PM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Perfect outfit


> And my fantasy would be an orchestrated event --at which I could wear an
entire wardrobe of Regency clothes over the course of an entire week at some
country manor :) Maybe a dozen or so  other people participating. There
would be all sorts of outings, pic-nics, riding, etc . And I would need not
only a good ladies' maid --but an excellent butler and cook , as well:)LOL!
> Albra

I have wanted that for ages and ages! I heard there is a place in England
that does this, but I am sure it is very expensive. Tell you what... When I
win the lotto (not likely since I do not play), I will buy an estate in
England and will have "period" weeks for everyone! Regency, baroque, etc.
Ah... to dream of that wardrobe.

Teena

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  --Nicole 
  the lace shots on the shift were really a "find' for me because I have been looking for simple lace pattern that I could  make for edgings.  And If you have more with lace please include them. 

  Ysandra
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> And the slits to my eye seem to not be fully spiral, but stop and start in
> the spiral pattern up the sleeve.

I feel the same as there are very clear lines that also are textured (the
edges seem to be bound) then near the outside of her left arm there are
spaces between points where the surface is smooth

> What I always wondered was if that red material was embroidered or woven
> with that gold pattern. Any ideas?

I still think embroidery;)

If anyone has the book by Blanch Payne there is an extant girl's dress from
around this time (a little later I think) and the way the embroidery stands
out is just the same as in this painting. There are fine scolling lines and
wide straight sections...

It also shows a similar treatment to the decoration on this dress. So there
are differences between skirt and bodice and sleeves... of course this is a
skirt, bodice and over gown so when I say similar.. I mean the same sort of
ideas.

http://glittersweet.com/paynefull.jpg
http://glittersweet.com/paynehalf.jpg
http://glittersweet.com/paynebodice.jpg
http://glittersweet.com/payneembroidery.jpg embroidery of the skirt up close
http://glittersweet.com/paynefold.jpg showing how the stripes are
embroidered seperately then put on later, there are very definate folds to
get the mitred corners.

michaela
http://costumes.glittersweet.com



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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Perfect outfit
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>>>  > If y'all had the chance to make one "perfect outfit," and had up to 2
>>>>  years to complete it, what would you make, and why? This can be a
>>>>  special costume, or garb, or a very special dress.
>>>
>>>I don't really have a fantasy about one "perfect outfit."  But sometimes I
>>>*do* fantasize about being able to invest serious time into a high accuracy
>>>Viking wardrobe.
>>
>>Yeah, like she said.  I'd want a whole weekend's worth of Edwardians, 
>>including changing clothes for several daytime activities and night-time 
>>ones, plus traveling clothes to get to the event and back, plus 
>>night-wear and a peignoir, and, of course, underwear and petticoats, 
>>hats, purses, shoes, etc.
>
>And that essential accessory ... a lady's maid!

And that house in the country, full of servants, so I can reciprocate the 
visit, and the inherited fortune to support that lifestyle, etc.


        CarolynKayta Barrows
dollmaker, fibre artist, textillian
          www.FunStuft.com

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We lost our Comcast internet in Richmond, VA for 24 hours.  I guess the
routers on the East Coast got bogged down.  I just got back up and working
again.

Penny Ladnier
Owner, The Costume Gallery & Costume Classroom
www.costumegallery.com
www.costumeclassroom.com


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LOL!!!!!  I am married to a computer professional... he was a computer
functional analyst 18 years, now a business analyst, turning into a database
engineer next year.

He is not into costume other than he loves Style TV.  His interests are
Denver Broncos and a Grand Funk Railroad groupie.

My son and his computer guru friends are into sword fighting, animes, and
D&D.

Penny Ladnier
Owner, The Costume Gallery & Costume Classroom
www.costumegallery.com
www.costumeclassroom.com


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Penny,
Oh you are so lucky to have the Style Network! When I move out I am actually going to pay for
a $300 satellite dish just to get it! What shows do you guys like?
~Deb R

> He is not into costume other than he loves Style TV.

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> > I personally wouldn't be surprised if more people have those ties but
> > have never talked about them. To some of us, SF fandom is something
> > out of our childhood that we've long grown out of. ;)

Oh dear, I feel sorry for you. To grow out of one's own childhood must be so
sad. I enjoy Fantasy costumes tremendously. I can do what I want, let
imagination run free, what a wonderful thing to do - with the same zest as back
in the childhood, but with a heck more money and resources. ;-)

> <shrug>  I'm always willing to be proven wrong, as I said.  I'd just like to 
> point out that I still believe that it's never too late to have a happy 
> childhood.  ;-)

Bingo! I wholeheartedly agree.

Nicole

=====
Artemis - One of the Three Baroque Lurve Goddess    
http://www.kipar.org/temp/baroque-lurve-goddesses.jpg

Email: nicole@kipar.org
URL: http://www.kipar.org

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From: "Beteena Paradise" <bkessinger@ureach.com>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
References: 
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	<001801c363b3$dd441bf0$72ccadcb@michaela>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] isabel de valois dress
Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 08:39:41 -0400
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Status: RO

Thanks everyone for such great info on this dress. Now all I need is a staff
of people to help me embroider it! Or maybe Bjarne will volunteer himself
for a few years?
----- Original Message -----
From: "michaela" <thebruce@ihug.co.nz>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Saturday, August 16, 2003 1:04 AM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] isabel de valois dress


> > And the slits to my eye seem to not be fully spiral, but stop and start
in
> > the spiral pattern up the sleeve.
>
> I feel the same as there are very clear lines that also are textured (the
> edges seem to be bound) then near the outside of her left arm there are
> spaces between points where the surface is smooth
>
> > What I always wondered was if that red material was embroidered or woven
> > with that gold pattern. Any ideas?
>
> I still think embroidery;)
>
> If anyone has the book by Blanch Payne there is an extant girl's dress
from
> around this time (a little later I think) and the way the embroidery
stands
> out is just the same as in this painting. There are fine scolling lines
and
> wide straight sections...
>
> It also shows a similar treatment to the decoration on this dress. So
there
> are differences between skirt and bodice and sleeves... of course this is
a
> skirt, bodice and over gown so when I say similar.. I mean the same sort
of
> ideas.
>
> http://glittersweet.com/paynefull.jpg
> http://glittersweet.com/paynehalf.jpg
> http://glittersweet.com/paynebodice.jpg
> http://glittersweet.com/payneembroidery.jpg embroidery of the skirt up
close
> http://glittersweet.com/paynefold.jpg showing how the stripes are
> embroidered seperately then put on later, there are very definate folds to
> get the mitred corners.
>
> michaela
> http://costumes.glittersweet.com
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
>
>

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From: "Sheridan & Shane" <shooie@sprint.ca>
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References: <000c01c36394$c8029d30$6501a8c0@SG01>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Banners
Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 12:37:15 -0400
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The sew first cut later trick was one of those happy
'why-didn't-I-think-of -that' things I picked up at a costuming workshop.
When it comes to dagging, it sure made things go much smoother, especially
if your lining fabric is different than the garment fabric.

I will agree, common sense isn't always that common. I have a friend who
always uses her cutting shears upside down, you would think it would be much
more comfortable the other way...   :-)

Sheridan

Saragrace wrote:

> I was surprised when I found that doll makers almost solely sew first cut
> later.  Tracing seamlines makes so much sense, especially for beginning
> sewers.  I recently heared of a very respetable tailor who sews this way
> most of the time.  Though it does double your tracing/cut out time.   I am
> amazed at how many still don't get the concept of cuttting on the actual
> cutting line and sewing on the seam line line.....I almost have to harp on
> my students to do it...it just makes such common sense to me...
>
> Sg
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com] On
> Behalf Of Sheridan & Shane
> Sent: Friday, August 15, 2003 6:00 PM
> To: Historical Costume
> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Banners
>
>
> Hey thanks! :-)
>
> I have used a similar technique for making dags: sew first, cut later,
turn
> out. Definitely a good idea, I'll use it for banner #2. I will definitely
be
> taking you up on your offer for help on that one!
>
> I
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume



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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Sat Aug 16 14:37:07 2003
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I would suspect it's because both types of people like building things 
themselves,
enjoy late nights and long hours, and having most of the world have no 
understanding
of /appreciation for what they do.  ;)

I think there are certain types of people that are "builders".


On Wednesday, August 13, 2003, at 06:30 PM, Catherine Olanich Raymond 
wrote:

> On Wednesday 13 August 2003 08:54 am, Cyn Bucheger wrote:
>>> My husband (who is also a computer programmer) would probably say 
>>> that's
>>> because both programmers and costumers tend to gravitate to, and be
>>> part of, > SF fandom, though from what I've seen on this list that's 
>>> a
>>> oversimplification since many of the costumers on this list aren't
>>> involved with science fiction fandom.
>>
>> I would suggest that it is because computer programmers and costumers 
>> are
>> use to thinking outside of the box...
>
>
> Could be.  I like this explanation--and I find it more plausible than
> Catherine Kinsey's suggestion that there are a lot of ex-SF fen on 
> this list.
> While it's clear there are certainly some, I suspect that it's far 
> from a
> majority.
>
>
> -- 
> Cathy Raymond <cathy@thyrsus.com>
>
> No man is rich enough to buy back his
> past.  Oscar Wilde
>
> _______________________________________________
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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: Smock pictures available, was Re: [h-cost] delurking with  a
 partlet question
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Genie Barrett wrote:

> As the originator of the partlet question, I now would like to know how 
> that particular neckline is achieved.  If you look close, it is open.  
> If it's a shirt, is it just a few more gathers so that the neck doesn't 
> come closed?
> 
> the URL again: http://costume.dm.net/gallery/1569.html

If you are referring to the diamond that's formed by the open front of 
the shirt, it's just a regular old shirt with a band collar and a long 
slash down the front.  If the collar is a straight rectangle, and it 
fits closely to your neck about halfway up, and you fasten it only at 
the very top, it will tend to take this shape.  Most people's necks get 
bigger near the bottom, so a straight rectangle that is the right length 
for halfway up will naturally splay around the larger circumference 
lower down.  In addition, when things are unfastened, they loosen up.

Cheers,
Melanie Schuessler
http://www.faucet.net/costume

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I've actually found if I mark my stitching line, NOT my cutting line, I 
save
quite a bit of time in marking/cutting.  I don't have to be as accurate 
with the cutting,
since I have the stitching line marked clearly, and I can match it.


On Friday, August 15, 2003, at 06:21 PM, Saragrace T. Knauf wrote:

> I was surprised when I found that doll makers almost solely sew first 
> cut
> later.  Tracing seamlines makes so much sense, especially for beginning
> sewers.  I recently heared of a very respetable tailor who sews this 
> way
> most of the time.  Though it does double your tracing/cut out time.   
> I am
> amazed at how many still don't get the concept of cuttting on the 
> actual
> cutting line and sewing on the seam line line.....I almost have to 
> harp on
> my students to do it...it just makes such common sense to me...
>
> Sg
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com] 
> On
> Behalf Of Sheridan & Shane
> Sent: Friday, August 15, 2003 6:00 PM
> To: Historical Costume
> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Banners
>
>
> Hey thanks! :-)
>
> I have used a similar technique for making dags: sew first, cut later, 
> turn
> out. Definitely a good idea, I'll use it for banner #2. I will 
> definitely be
> taking you up on your offer for help on that one!
>
> I
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
>

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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Perfect outfit
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From: Heather Meadows <alice@wonderland.com>
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yes yes!  with lots of moor-stomping and long angry walks, so we can 
run into tall handsome men...

*ahem*  sorry, total fantasy moment.

.heather.

On Friday, August 15, 2003, at 06:24 PM, KATHRYN WOLTERS wrote:

> And my fantasy would be an orchestrated event --at which I could wear 
> an entire wardrobe of Regency clothes over the course of an entire 
> week at some country manor :) Maybe a dozen or so  other people 
> participating. There would be all sorts of outings, pic-nics, riding, 
> etc . And I would need not only a good ladies' maid --but an excellent 
> butler and cook , as well:)LOL!
> Albra
>
> Heather Rose Jones <hrjones@socrates.berkeley.edu> wrote:
> At 1:19 AM -0700 8/15/03, Carolyn Kayta Barrows wrote:
>>>> If y'all had the chance to make one "perfect outfit," and had up to 
>>>> 2
>>>> years to complete it, what would you make, and why? This can be a
>>>> special costume, or garb, or a very special dress.
>>>
>>> I don't really have a fantasy about one "perfect outfit." But 
>>> sometimes I
>>> *do* fantasize about being able to invest serious time into a high 
>>> accuracy
>>> Viking wardrobe.
>>
>> Yeah, like she said. I'd want a whole weekend's worth of
>> Edwardians, including changing clothes for several daytime
>> activities and night-time ones, plus traveling clothes to get to the
>> event and back, plus night-wear and a peignoir, and, of course,
>> underwear and petticoats, hats, purses, shoes, etc.
>
> And that essential accessory ... a lady's maid!
>
> Heather
> -- 
> *****
> Heather Rose Jones
> hrjones@socrates.berkeley.edu
> *****
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
>
>
> ---------------------------------
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Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 11:11:09 -0700 (PDT)
From: KATHRYN WOLTERS <albrakat7@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Perfect outfit
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
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giggle--why , yess---and in the rain!!!
Albra

Heather Meadows <alice@wonderland.com> wrote:
yes yes! with lots of moor-stomping and long angry walks, so we can 
run into tall handsome men...

*ahem* sorry, total fantasy moment.

.heather.

On Friday, August 15, 2003, at 06:24 PM, KATHRYN WOLTERS wrote:

> And my fantasy would be an orchestrated event --at which I could wear 
> an entire wardrobe of Regency clothes over the course of an entire 
> week at some country manor :) Maybe a dozen or so other people 
> participating. There would be all sorts of outings, pic-nics, riding, 
> etc . And I would need not only a good ladies' maid --but an excellent 
> butler and cook , as well:)LOL!
> Albra
>
> Heather Rose Jones 
---------------------------------
wrote:
> At 1:19 AM -0700 8/15/03, Carolyn Kayta Barrows wrote:
>>>> If y'all had the chance to make one "perfect outfit," and had up to 
>>>> 2
>>>> years to complete it, what would you make, and why? This can be a
>>>> special costume, or garb, or a very special dress.
>>>
>>> I don't really have a fantasy about one "perfect outfit." But 
>>> sometimes I
>>> *do* fantasize about being able to invest serious time into a high 
>>> accuracy
>>> Viking wardrobe.
>>
>> Yeah, like she said. I'd want a whole weekend's worth of
>> Edwardians, including changing clothes for several daytime
>> activities and night-time ones, plus traveling clothes to get to the
>> event and back, plus night-wear and a peignoir, and, of course,
>> underwear and petticoats, hats, purses, shoes, etc.
>
> And that essential accessory ... a lady's maid!
>
> Heather
> -- 
> *****
> Heather Rose Jones
> hrjones@socrates.berkeley.edu
> *****
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
>
>
> ---------------------------------
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> Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software
> _______________________________________________
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> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Sun Aug 17 20:23:08 2003
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From: "Tonkin, Rebecca (PIRSA-SARDI)" <tonkin.rebecca@saugov.sa.gov.au>
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Subject: [h-cost] Re. scots/celtic/fantasy type costume
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Hi Joe, sorry I took a while to answer - I'm on digest, and don't read email
over the weekend. As for time period - Just about anything goes. Having
looked at the sites Kimiko recommended (thanks Kimiko!), I'm now looking
more at finding something like "Scottish National dress" or "celtic fantasy"
- purely because I think wearing a leinne and arisaid would feel like
wearing a nightie and blanket.
Of course, everytime I look for "Scottish National Dress", I find a picture
of a man in a kilt! So what do women wear for such occasions ?


Message: 11
Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 23:02:58 -0500
From: Joe Robertson <joedr@charter.net>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] scots/celtic/fantasy type costume
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
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Is there a particular time period they are trying to target? I might be
able to point you the right direction.
Joe
---
Joe Robertson, Psy.D.

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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Sun Aug 17 21:26:17 2003
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Hi Rebecca,
   I'm going to focus on modern dress. If you need references for
earlier stuff, please let me know.In modern times, dress depends very
much on the formality and type of event you are attending, as well as
when you are attending it. Here's a few items that should get you
started. The main thing you need to remember when putting together a
wardrobe for highland events is that highland dress is conservative.
Day Wear
   This is what women would usually wear during the daylight hours. A
lass might wear a tartan skirt that drops to just past the knee, which
would be worn in conjunction with a complimentary blouse or sweater (in
cooler weather). Do NOT wear stripes, polka dots, combat boots, flip
flops, or stuff from the Big Dog store with highland attire.  :o) Tartan
or plain slacks can also be worn. If desired, a tartan ruana (similar to
a poncho or wrap) might be worn. Women may also wear tartan tams or
scarves as accessories or by themselves. For more formal daytime
affairs, a full length tartan hostess skirt might be worn. The
accessories would need to be a bit more formal to match.
Evening Wear
   Evening hours usher in the formal aspect of highland attire when men
will generally be in black bow ties. The ladies might wear their tartan
skirt with a more formal blouse or top, such as a jabot blouse, and
might also wear a dark solid coloured vest of sorts over the jabot. At
the most formal of events, the men will be in strutting peacock mode, so
join right in. Women at these black tie events will generally wear very
nice conservative evening gowns with a wool or silk tartan sash secured
at the right shoulder with a pretty brooch of some sort.
   Here are a few things to remember when dressing in modern highland
attire.
1. First of all, modern highland dress is not period for ren-faires.
What you are are achieving here is the highland look for today.
2. Clan tartans, though accepted and perfectly cool to wear today, were
a marketing scheme of weavers in the early 19th century. You are correct
to wear the tartan of your clan or family, or there are many generic
one's (like Scotland Nat'l tartan, USA tartan, or others) that would be
equally correct. You must remember that there is no legal reason not to
wear any that you want, but show your pride by wearing something that
you actually have some attachment with.
3. Women do not wear sporrans, the belt purses worn in front by men in
kilts (no pockets). Carry the conservative purse of your choosing.
4. Keep the shoes correct for the occasion. Like I mentioned before,
combat boots are never correct! Choose comfortable shoes that would be
correct for the situation if you weren't in highland attire.
   I hope this helps you out a bit. You will need to find So you're
going to wear the Kilt by J. Charles Thompson, or Tartans and Highland
Dress by C.R. MacKinnon. Both are excellent resources for modern
highland attire and come highly recommended (I have both). The second
book is out of print and rare, but you can find copies online through
book dealers.
   Look forward to speaking again!
Slainte,
Joe
---
Joe Robertson, Psy.D.
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Subject: [h-cost] 19th Century Clothing Workshops
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Just a brief de-lurk to announce that we will be teaching 19th century 
clothing workshops in Kansas and Arkansas this October.  The series will be:

24-26 October, Fort Scott, Kansas (1850s emphasis)
29-30 October, Old Washington, Arkansas (1860s emphasis)
1-2 November, Eureka Springs, Arkansas (1880s emphasis)

Full details are available on our site at 
http://www.elizabethstewartclark.com .

Regards,
Elizabeth
http://www.elizabethstewartclark.com

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From: Kimiko Small <kimiko@kimiko1.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Banners
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At 11:04 AM 8/17/2003 -0700, you wrote:
>I've actually found if I mark my stitching line, NOT my cutting line, I save
>quite a bit of time in marking/cutting.  I don't have to be as accurate 
>with the cutting,
>since I have the stitching line marked clearly, and I can match it.


I want to try this on a project. Does marking the stitching line mean only 
cutting one layer at a time? How do you line up marks between say front and 
back of a piece? Any other tips you might have on this would be very 
appreciated.

Kimiko


Kimiko Small
Costumer, Fiber Artist, Web Designer, Wife and Mother
kimiko@kimiko1.com; http://www.kimiko1.com
"When there is fear, there is no creativity" ~ C. Lowell

Graphic Intern at Costume Gallery
http://www.costumegallery.com

_______________________________________________
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Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 21:36:13 -0700
From: Kimiko Small <kimiko@kimiko1.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] isabel de valois dress
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At 08:39 AM 8/16/2003 -0400, you wrote:
>Thanks everyone for such great info on this dress. Now all I need is a staff
>of people to help me embroider it! Or maybe Bjarne will volunteer himself
>for a few years?


Hi Beteena,

Ok, you've got me thinking on this dress again. I found a rose cotton 
velvet online, and a silk duchess satin locally, that might be usable for 
embroidery. What I have been pondering is the embroidery, and I think many 
of the pieces might be applique, with additional stitching for filler, such 
as I have seen with a few other pieces of the times in my embroidery books.

So, can anyone here tell if it is satin or velvet that is the base of the 
gown? How does one tell, anyway. I mean sometimes looking at the image, it 
is obvious one way or the other, but sometimes it doesn't seem to be. 
Anyone ever see this painting up close?

If I actually can afford that duchess silk which I just found on 50% off at 
a local store (it would need dyeing), I may just actually try reproducing 
this dress. It might just take me two years, but it has been calling me 
over the past few years.

So, does anyone have any experience on how easy it is to dye heavy silk 
satin, as in yards of it?

Kimiko
(who might just get over her head with this dream)


Kimiko Small
Costumer, Fiber Artist, Web Designer, Wife and Mother
kimiko@kimiko1.com; http://www.kimiko1.com
"When there is fear, there is no creativity" ~ C. Lowell

Graphic Intern at Costume Gallery
http://www.costumegallery.com

_______________________________________________
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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Mon Aug 18 01:10:05 2003
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Banners
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you can do both layers at once, if you use marking paper under and 
above the fabric.

I do this with most of my muslins, and I use the large sheets of carbon 
(like typewriter carbon)
that stained glass workers use.  They cost about 40 cents a sheet, and 
I have yet to use one up.


On Sunday, August 17, 2003, at 09:27 PM, Kimiko Small wrote:

> At 11:04 AM 8/17/2003 -0700, you wrote:
>> I've actually found if I mark my stitching line, NOT my cutting line, 
>> I save
>> quite a bit of time in marking/cutting.  I don't have to be as 
>> accurate with the cutting,
>> since I have the stitching line marked clearly, and I can match it.
>
>
> I want to try this on a project. Does marking the stitching line mean 
> only cutting one layer at a time? How do you line up marks between say 
> front and back of a piece? Any other tips you might have on this would 
> be very appreciated.
>
> Kimiko
>
>
> Kimiko Small
> Costumer, Fiber Artist, Web Designer, Wife and Mother
> kimiko@kimiko1.com; http://www.kimiko1.com
> "When there is fear, there is no creativity" ~ C. Lowell
>
> Graphic Intern at Costume Gallery
> http://www.costumegallery.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
>

_______________________________________________
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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Mon Aug 18 06:12:55 2003
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From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" <drewscph@post12.tele.dk>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] isabel de valois dress
Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 12:14:14 +0200
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Hi,
I tryed to go to the page at glittersweet to se the picture again, but i
couldnt get trough. Maybe the black out you had over there has something to
do with that.
But as i recall the picture, i would say it was made of silk satin, a heavy
silk satin. The way it shades makes me think that.
One thing you could do to easy up the embroidery was if you used gold
coloured silks in stead of real gold thread. It is much easyer to work with,
and whow, if you really have the curridge to make all that embroidery, i
surely must take my bows for you!
Eterna silk has a very large range of embroidery floss to choose from, they
also has online colours you could look for. They have a wonderfull way to
treat their costumers, and i am a very pleased costumer of theirs. When i
order from them, i usually takes a lot home in one posting, and then all the
different shades of same colour is wrapped-rolled in the prettyest way in
silk paper and tied with a silk ribbon. I actually use those silkpaper
packages when i work with embroidery, and i can use it to put the threads
back into the paper and roll it together and use the silktribbon.
Then i just write wich colour i have outside each package, and have it ready
for next time this way.
 http://www.threadexpress.com/

It is lovely when you have desided for a projekt, almost just as lovely as
to make it!

Bjarne





Leif og Bjarne Drews
www.my-drewscostumes.dk

http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/
----- Original Message -----
From: "Kimiko Small" <kimiko@kimiko1.com>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Monday, August 18, 2003 6:36 AM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] isabel de valois dress


> At 08:39 AM 8/16/2003 -0400, you wrote:
> >Thanks everyone for such great info on this dress. Now all I need is a
staff
> >of people to help me embroider it! Or maybe Bjarne will volunteer himself
> >for a few years?
>
>
> Hi Beteena,
>
> Ok, you've got me thinking on this dress again. I found a rose cotton
> velvet online, and a silk duchess satin locally, that might be usable for
> embroidery. What I have been pondering is the embroidery, and I think many
> of the pieces might be applique, with additional stitching for filler,
such
> as I have seen with a few other pieces of the times in my embroidery
books.
>
> So, can anyone here tell if it is satin or velvet that is the base of the
> gown? How does one tell, anyway. I mean sometimes looking at the image, it
> is obvious one way or the other, but sometimes it doesn't seem to be.
> Anyone ever see this painting up close?
>
> If I actually can afford that duchess silk which I just found on 50% off
at
> a local store (it would need dyeing), I may just actually try reproducing
> this dress. It might just take me two years, but it has been calling me
> over the past few years.
>
> So, does anyone have any experience on how easy it is to dye heavy silk
> satin, as in yards of it?
>
> Kimiko
> (who might just get over her head with this dream)
>
>
> Kimiko Small
> Costumer, Fiber Artist, Web Designer, Wife and Mother
> kimiko@kimiko1.com; http://www.kimiko1.com
> "When there is fear, there is no creativity" ~ C. Lowell
>
> Graphic Intern at Costume Gallery
> http://www.costumegallery.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
>


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Just now, I received notices about a couple of courses which may interest
some people here.  They're put on by Oxford University Department for
Continuing Education, see
http://www.conted.ox.ac.uk/
(There may very well be other courses of interest, these are just two for
which I happen to have the informations sheets.)

The first is "Jane Austen and the Reconstruction of the Regency Interior",
27th March, 2004, 35.   is Dr. Karen Lipsedge.
"The accompliched woman":  Austen and her novels
2.  Fact versus fiction:  the real and imagined world of the Regency
interior
3.  The costume drama:  twentieth-century re-interpretations of "Pride and
Prejudice"
4.  New approaches:  re-interpretating "Pride and Prejudice" in the future
(workshop and discussion).
Here's the web address
http://www.conted.ox.ac.uk/courses/showCourse.asp?courseId=O03P398ARJ
but it doesn't tell you a great deal.  If you ask for the information sheet
to be sent to you, it includes useful things a background reading list.

The second is "Image and Self-Fashioning at the Elizabethan and Jacobean
Court", 29th May, 2004, 35.  The lecturers are Cathy Oakes and Christine
Jackson.
There are four talks:-
1.  How Nicholas Hilliard and Isaac Oliver painted their sitters
2.  Fashioning an image of nobility in words and pictures:  the
autobiography and portraits of Edward Lord Herbert of Cherbury.
3.  The faces of Elizabeth I
4.  Noble women as daughters, wives, mothers and widows:  projecting ideals
and reflecting realities.
Here's the web address
http://www.conted.ox.ac.uk/courses/showCourse.asp?courseId=O03P403HIJ
(advice as above).

No affiliations - just a satisfied customer!


Linda Walton.
P.S.  Book early - these Saturday Schools fill up very quickly.

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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] isabel de valois dress
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Hi,

I wonder what her headress is. Is it someting like a french hood?
Open at the back ore closed like an oval pillbox kind of hood?
http://www.deredere.dds.nl/16thcent_dress/16thcent_dress.html

Greetings,
        Deredere



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Subject: Re: [h-cost] isabel de valois dress
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Kimiko Small wrote:

> So, does anyone have any experience on how easy it is to dye heavy silk 
> satin, as in yards of it?

I dyed about eight yards of heavy silk satin about a year ago.  I did it 
in a dye vat at a professional costume shop (and hung to dry), and I 
can't say I'd recommend a washing machine.  If you don't have friends at 
a local theatre or university with a dye vat, you could call and ask if 
you could "rent" their vat for a small fee.

I used a silk dye from http://www.jacquardproducts.com/, and the only 
problem I have is that it isn't completely fast.  That is, if you rub 
it, you can get a little bit of color to come off.  I used the 
"stovetop" instructions (as the dye vat is basically a big soup kettle), 
so I'm not sure what to do to make it more colorfast.  Suggestions from 
dye-savvy list members are welcome.

Melanie Schuessler
http://www.faucet.net/costume

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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Mon Aug 18 08:20:41 2003
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From: KATHRYN WOLTERS <albrakat7@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] isabel de valois dress
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
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Actually I've used the same dyes--and I have used my washing machine(I just run a couple of washes thru afterwards with 2 cups of bleach so my husband does'nt scream if his shorts turn peach --:) to dye up to 12 yards of silk taffeta.  I also use vinegar to help set the color in the dye bath. The fabric still bleeds slightly. I had to press the fabric later --and it DID lose it's sizing. 
As to the the embroidery --I'm fairly sure it's couched metal cords--and that the inner areas are either gold colored silk over parchment(a sort of padded satin stitch) or metal passing threads worked over the parchment. They often used parchment  or felted material as a base on which to work the top threads. Janet Arnold's Patterns of Fashion--1560-1620---show a lot of couched cord ornamentation. Take a peek at figure 227 on page 32. The figure number 348 on page 49 shows a pattern similar to what you are contemplating--but since it is worked in  colored silks outlined in couched metal cord using goldne colored silk. Also look at figures 289 and 291 on page 41---which shows details from the Eleonora of Toledo gown. 
I've done this kind of embroidery before--it's what I teach :) It is'nt hard to do --but very time consuming---but oh--the results are breathtaking!
Albra

Melanie Schuessler <melanie@faucet.net> wrote:
Kimiko Small wrote:

> So, does anyone have any experience on how easy it is to dye heavy silk 
> satin, as in yards of it?

I dyed about eight yards of heavy silk satin about a year ago. I did it 
in a dye vat at a professional costume shop (and hung to dry), and I 
can't say I'd recommend a washing machine. If you don't have friends at 
a local theatre or university with a dye vat, you could call and ask if 
you could "rent" their vat for a small fee.

I used a silk dye from http://www.jacquardproducts.com/, and the only 
problem I have is that it isn't completely fast. That is, if you rub 
it, you can get a little bit of color to come off. I used the 
"stovetop" instructions (as the dye vat is basically a big soup kettle), 
so I'm not sure what to do to make it more colorfast. Suggestions from 
dye-savvy list members are welcome.

Melanie Schuessler
http://www.faucet.net/costume

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From: "Beteena Paradise" <bkessinger@ureach.com>
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] isabel de valois dress
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Kimiko Small" <kimiko@kimiko1.com>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Monday, August 18, 2003 12:36 AM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] isabel de valois dress


> At 08:39 AM 8/16/2003 -0400, you wrote:
> >Thanks everyone for such great info on this dress. Now all I need is a
staff
> >of people to help me embroider it! Or maybe Bjarne will volunteer himself
> >for a few years?
>
>
> Hi Beteena,
>
> Ok, you've got me thinking on this dress again. I found a rose cotton
> velvet online, and a silk duchess satin locally, that might be usable for
> embroidery. What I have been pondering is the embroidery, and I think many
> of the pieces might be applique, with additional stitching for filler,
such
> as I have seen with a few other pieces of the times in my embroidery
books.
>
> So, can anyone here tell if it is satin or velvet that is the base of the
> gown? How does one tell, anyway. I mean sometimes looking at the image, it
> is obvious one way or the other, but sometimes it doesn't seem to be.
> Anyone ever see this painting up close?
>
> If I actually can afford that duchess silk which I just found on 50% off
at
> a local store (it would need dyeing), I may just actually try reproducing
> this dress. It might just take me two years, but it has been calling me
> over the past few years.
>
> So, does anyone have any experience on how easy it is to dye heavy silk
> satin, as in yards of it?
>
> Kimiko
> (who might just get over her head with this dream)
>
You know, I always thought it was a silk (non-velvet) because of the sheen
it seems to have, but I looked at a closeup and the fabric seems to have a
bit of texture. Of course, I am only looking at an image and not a great
one. I would love to see the original painting!!!! I agree about the
appliqu.

Kimiko... you know, as you are spending two years making one, it isn't that
much effort to make another at the same time. *whistles innocently*

Teena

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From: "Lisa Sinervo" <Lisa-list@threadneedlest.com>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
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Subject: Elizabethan Drama correspondence courses was Re: [h-cost] Oxford Day
	Schools
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Thanks Linda, these are nice to drool over.  I don't suppose you are taking
in house guests?  :)  I could do windows in exchange!

I don't suppose anyone knows of any good correspondence courses in
Elizabethan Drama on offer.  This area is really interesting me, but I don't
have the time or sense of permanency as to where I am living to sign up for
any on campus courses.  Even a Shakespeare course would be nice.

Thanks,

Lisa Sinervo
www.ThrednedleStrete.com
Thrednedle Strete Clothiers




----- Original Message -----
From: "Linda Walton" <linda.walton@dsl.pipex.com>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Monday, August 18, 2003 4:08 AM
Subject: [h-cost] Oxford Day Schools


> Just now, I received notices about a couple of courses which may interest
> some people here.  They're put on by Oxford University Department for
> Continuing Education, see
> http://www.conted.ox.ac.uk/
> (There may very well be other courses of interest, these are just two for
> which I happen to have the informations sheets.)
>
> The first is "Jane Austen and the Reconstruction of the Regency Interior",
> 27th March, 2004, 35.   is Dr. Karen Lipsedge.
> "The accompliched woman":  Austen and her novels
> 2.  Fact versus fiction:  the real and imagined world of the Regency
> interior
> 3.  The costume drama:  twentieth-century re-interpretations of "Pride and
> Prejudice"
> 4.  New approaches:  re-interpretating "Pride and Prejudice" in the future
> (workshop and discussion).
> Here's the web address
> http://www.conted.ox.ac.uk/courses/showCourse.asp?courseId=O03P398ARJ
> but it doesn't tell you a great deal.  If you ask for the information
sheet
> to be sent to you, it includes useful things a background reading list.
>
> The second is "Image and Self-Fashioning at the Elizabethan and Jacobean
> Court", 29th May, 2004, 35.  The lecturers are Cathy Oakes and Christine
> Jackson.
> There are four talks:-
> 1.  How Nicholas Hilliard and Isaac Oliver painted their sitters
> 2.  Fashioning an image of nobility in words and pictures:  the
> autobiography and portraits of Edward Lord Herbert of Cherbury.
> 3.  The faces of Elizabeth I
> 4.  Noble women as daughters, wives, mothers and widows:  projecting
ideals
> and reflecting realities.
> Here's the web address
> http://www.conted.ox.ac.uk/courses/showCourse.asp?courseId=O03P403HIJ
> (advice as above).
>
> No affiliations - just a satisfied customer!
>
>
> Linda Walton.
> P.S.  Book early - these Saturday Schools fill up very quickly.
>
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
>


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	<200308121316.h7CDGT8U014511@net.indra.com><5.1.0.14.0.20030812214157.02efab78@127.0.0.1><5.1.0.14.0.20030815123144.02ea4730@127.0.0.1><001801c363b3$dd441bf0$72ccadcb@michaela><5.1.0.14.0.20030817213028.02f6bae0@127.0.0.1><000d01c36571$803f7ca0$4096fea9@CPQ21932199711>
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] isabel de valois dress
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Deredere Galbraith" <triade@kabelfoon.nl>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Monday, August 18, 2003 7:12 AM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] isabel de valois dress


> Hi,
>
> I wonder what her headress is. Is it someting like a french hood?
> Open at the back ore closed like an oval pillbox kind of hood?
> http://www.deredere.dds.nl/16thcent_dress/16thcent_dress.html
>
> Greetings,
>         Deredere

I always assumed it was a sort of pillbox that was shaped a little
differently. But that is a great question! I have been so absorbed by the
details of the dress, I hadn't even made it up to the hat yet.

Teena

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From: "Lisa Sinervo" <Lisa-list@threadneedlest.com>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
References: 
	<200308121316.h7CDGT8U014511@net.indra.com><5.1.0.14.0.20030812214157.02efab78@127.0.0.1><5.1.0.14.0.20030815123144.02ea4730@127.0.0.1><001801c363b3$dd441bf0$72ccadcb@michaela><5.1.0.14.0.20030817213028.02f6bae0@127.0.0.1>
	<3F40CA38.8060905@faucet.net>
Subject: professional dye vats Re: [h-cost] isabel de valois dress
Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 06:17:09 -0700
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Melanie Schuessler wrote:

> I dyed about eight yards of heavy silk satin about a year ago.  I did it
> in a dye vat at a professional costume shop (and hung to dry), and I
> can't say I'd recommend a washing machine.

Apart from the general description of the professional dye vat being a big
soup kettle, you would care to pass on some more specifics as to exactly
what a "professional" dye vat is?

Thanks,

Lisa Sinervo
www.ThrednedleStrete.com



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Subject: Re: [h-cost] isabel de valois dress
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----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Melanie Schuessler" <melanie@faucet.net>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Monday, August 18, 2003 8:44 AM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] isabel de valois dress


> Kimiko Small wrote:
>
> > So, does anyone have any experience on how easy it is to dye heavy silk
> > satin, as in yards of it?
>
> I dyed about eight yards of heavy silk satin about a year ago.  I did it
> in a dye vat at a professional costume shop (and hung to dry), and I
> can't say I'd recommend a washing machine.  If you don't have friends at
> a local theatre or university with a dye vat, you could call and ask if
> you could "rent" their vat for a small fee.
>
> I used a silk dye from http://www.jacquardproducts.com/, and the only
> problem I have is that it isn't completely fast.  That is, if you rub
> it, you can get a little bit of color to come off.  I used the
> "stovetop" instructions (as the dye vat is basically a big soup kettle),
> so I'm not sure what to do to make it more colorfast.  Suggestions from
> dye-savvy list members are welcome.

Did you use vinegar to fix the dye? I'm not very dye-savvy but I do know
that wool and silk dyes should be fixed with vinegar.... That's the only
thing I can think of :-)
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From: Emma Elizabeth Lehman <00217146@bigred.unl.edu>
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] isabel de valois dress
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>
> Did you use vinegar to fix the dye? I'm not very dye-savvy but I do know
> that wool and silk dyes should be fixed with vinegar.... That's the only
> thing I can think of :-)

was it a protein (silk/wool) dye? Silk can also be dyed using
fiber-reactive dyes (meant for cellulosics like cotton, rayon and linen),
for which you need to make the solution basic, usually using soda ash.
Maybe it is fast, you just didn't rinse it enough?  Or maybe it just isn't
totally fast.  I usually use Procion (spelling?) dyes, with excellent
results.

emma

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Subject: Re: [h-cost] isabel de valois dress
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> > Did you use vinegar to fix the dye? I'm not very dye-savvy but I do know
> > that wool and silk dyes should be fixed with vinegar.... That's the only
> > thing I can think of :-)
>
> was it a protein (silk/wool) dye? Silk can also be dyed using
> fiber-reactive dyes (meant for cellulosics like cotton, rayon and linen),
> for which you need to make the solution basic, usually using soda ash.
> Maybe it is fast, you just didn't rinse it enough?  Or maybe it just isn't
> totally fast.  I usually use Procion (spelling?) dyes, with excellent
> results.

But people at Dharma told me to fix Procion dyes with vinegar when dyeing
silk or wool.
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From: "Cyn Bucheger" <cbucheger@paclp.com>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
References: <20030815212517.22754.qmail@web41508.mail.yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] 1st batch V&A photos: 2 shifts, 16th c. feather fan &
	fabric
Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 08:51:30 -0500
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>  The fan is 16th c. apparently,
> http://www.kipar.org/temp/VA/
>
>

Hi, I have a question about the fan.  Does the handle look to be jewelers
work- i.e. precious metal or is it gilded wood?  I've been working on a
replica of such a fan and would love to know alittle more...

Cyn


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Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 15:45:55 +0100 (BST)
From: =?iso-8859-1?q?N=20Kipar?= <nicolas_fouquet@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] 1st batch V&A photos: 2 shifts, 16th c. feather fan &
	fabric
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http://www.silvertyne.com/~smaynard/unsuited/albums/victoria_and_albert_museum/pages/IM000589_JPG.htm

This one here is a better shot than mine. The handle seems to be enamelled
metal.

Nicole

> Hi, I have a question about the fan.  Does the handle look to be jewelers
> work- i.e. precious metal or is it gilded wood?  I've been working on a
> replica of such a fan and would love to know alittle more...
> 
> Cyn
> 
>


=====
Artemis - One of the Three Baroque Lurve Goddess    
http://www.kipar.org/temp/baroque-lurve-goddesses.jpg

Email: nicole@kipar.org
URL: http://www.kipar.org

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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Mon Aug 18 10:58:52 2003
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Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 10:57:49 -0400
To: h-costume@indra.com
From: Brenda <webwarren@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re. scots/celtic/fantasy type costume 
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"Tonkin, Rebecca (PIRSA-SARDI)" <tonkin.rebecca@saugov.sa.gov.au> wrote:

>Of course, everytime I look for "Scottish National Dress", I find a picture
>of a man in a kilt! So what do women wear for such occasions ?

There are a couple of different possibilities here. What Joe mentioned 
seems to be what you'll find lasses wearing at Highland Games or what you 
might see in photos of the British Royal Family at events in Scotland.

"So You're Going to Wear the Kilt" has a section on women's dress in which 
they have the women wearing white shift-like gowns with narrow, thin, 
wool-or-silk sashes worn in various ways depending upon the woman's clan 
and marital status. Draped over the right shoulder is, IIRC, indicative of 
a single woman or a woman who has married within her clan. Draped over the 
left shoulder is indicative of a clan chieftain (female) or the wife of the 
clan chieftain. A woman who's married out of her clan is supposed to wear 
it draped over the right shoulder and tied in a bow at the left hip. 
(Hmm...) Apparently this particular version of attire was (at the time of 
writing) similar to that approved by the Royal Scottish Country Dance 
Society (or something like that, I've forgotten the exact name).

There's another leaflet, put out by Unicorn Press (and I've forgotten its 
name and where I've put my copy of it) dealing with "women's traditional 
dress". The outfit described here is a bit of a cross between the attire of 
female Highland dancers competing in the fling, sword dance, jig, etc. 
(kilt, jabot blouse, vest) and the attire of female Highland dancers 
competing in the National (full-skirted longer dress, arisaid draped over 
one shoulder -- this outfit is also known as the "aboyne"). Start with a 
typical "peasant blouse" with set-in sleeves gathered at the armscye. Add 
to this a long gathered tartan skirt in the sett you have chosen (as per 
Joe's remarks -- but note that in some environs, you *must* have a 
connection to a named sett in order to wear it), a tartan arisaid (I think 
it's about 1 yd wide by 2-3 yd long?) out of the same sett as the skirt, 
and a bodice that looks remarkably like a cross-laced, front-lacing version 
of the boned-tabbed corset on the front of Margo's Elizabethan 
Underpinnings pattern... but out of the same fabrics and trims as a woman's 
dance-competition vest.
To put on the outfit, you start with the blouse/chemise. Note that on the 
shoulder seams of the chemise, there are five tartan bows to indicate 
points where the sleeves were once separate. Then you put on your skirt. 
Then you take a thin belt or cord and use it to secure the arisaid to your 
waist as if it were a front-opening overskirt... or an apron across your 
butt. Then you put on the bodice. Then you take the lower right corner of 
the arisaid and drape it over your shoulder from back to front, with the 
point hanging down in front, and secure it with a brooch. (There may be an 
option to do the same with the other side; I don't remember offhand.)

If you are doing this for renfaire, for a wedding, for a costumed or dress 
event, or for fun, you might want to look at some of the "Irish", 
"Scottish", and "Celtic" outfits sold by some of the online vendors of Ren 
garb. Another option would be to check the "Big Three" costume patterns. 
Simplicity 8855, I think, is one version of "Scottish" costume...

Hope this helps!


Brenda
webwarren@earthlink.net


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For those of you on tribe.net, I've created a new "tribe" for 
Historical Costume - http://historical_costume.tribe.net

enjoy!

.heather.

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Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 09:32:59 -0700
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Dawn Jacobson <dme_maud@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: professional dye vats Re: [h-cost] isabel de valois dress
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At 06:17 AM 8/18/2003 -0700, you wrote:
>Melanie Schuessler wrote:
>
> > I dyed about eight yards of heavy silk satin about a year ago.  I did it
> > in a dye vat at a professional costume shop (and hung to dry), and I
> > can't say I'd recommend a washing machine.
>
>Apart from the general description of the professional dye vat being a big
>soup kettle, you would care to pass on some more specifics as to exactly
>what a "professional" dye vat is?
>
>Thanks,
>
>Lisa Sinervo
>www.ThrednedleStrete.com

The best ones are large pots (holding 10 gallons and up), usually with a 
spigot at the bottom for draining, and mounted on a gas ring or heating 
element. They're wonderful because you can dye large pieces of fabric (such 
as blanket wool), and don't have to worry about trying to drain the dye out 
of the vat; you just open the tap at the bottom, and it goes down the drain.

Dawn

Dawn Jacobson
Vallejo, CA, USA

Clothes are the costumes we wear every day. 
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From: Dawn Jacobson <dme_maud@pacbell.net>
Subject: On dyeing (was: [h-cost] isabel de valois dress)
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At 09:53 AM 8/18/2003 -0400, you wrote:
> > > Did you use vinegar to fix the dye? I'm not very dye-savvy but I do know
> > > that wool and silk dyes should be fixed with vinegar.... That's the only
> > > thing I can think of :-)
> >
> > was it a protein (silk/wool) dye? Silk can also be dyed using
> > fiber-reactive dyes (meant for cellulosics like cotton, rayon and linen),
> > for which you need to make the solution basic, usually using soda ash.
> > Maybe it is fast, you just didn't rinse it enough?  Or maybe it just isn't
> > totally fast.  I usually use Procion (spelling?) dyes, with excellent
> > results.
>
>But people at Dharma told me to fix Procion dyes with vinegar when dyeing
>silk or wool.

OK, some "rules of thumb" for dyeing fabrics. These are the ones I've found 
work for me over the past 10 years: you may have others.

There are 2 kinds of dye: Fiber-reactive and Acid.

Fiber-reactive dyes (Procion is one brand) are good dyes for any kind of 
non-protein fiber that will take dye (linen, cotton, linen-cotton blends, 
rayon). These work well in cold water, are nice and bright, and are 
color-fast. Soda ash (sodium carbonate) is used to raise the acidity of the 
dye bath and "lock" the dye onto the fiber. Soda ash is also caustic; while 
plant-based fibers can take the harshness, it can make protein-based fibers 
harsh and brittle.

Acid dyes (Jacquard is one brand) are the preferred dyes for protein-based 
fibers (wool, silk, camel hair, dog hair, etc.). These are interesting 
fibers to dye, because you're manipulating the fiber at the cellular level. 
Most people are familiar with using acid dyes, but for those that have 
never done it, the process is (briefly):

Wet the fiber to be dyed, mix up the dye solution in a dye pot, add the 
fiber and let it soak, bring the dye solution slowly up to the temperature 
of hot tap water (about 120 degrees), add vinegar, and hold at that 
temperature for a period of time, then slowly bring the dye solution up to 
a full simmer and simmer for a period of time. Let cool slowly in the dye 
solution, then wash when it has completely cooled.

The reason for this long process is that by warming up the fiber in the dye 
solution, you are opening the cuticle on the  fiber shaft, putting the dye 
into the shaft, and then closing the cuticle. The slow heating and cooling 
allows the fiber to adjust to the changes (no felting).

If you find you are still having problems with dye transfer after dyeing a 
piece of fabric, the problem is not usually color-fastness, but crocking. 
Crocking occurs when there is excess dye left on the fabric; if you've ever 
had a new pair of blue jeans rub blue onto a white shirt, this is crocking. 
Most fabrics crock when they are new (one reason to prewash 
everything)--I've had purchased fabrics that were so dye-laden when they 
came from the mill I had to wash them 3-4 times before being able to use 
them. To prevent serious crocking or dye transfer, make sure to wash the 
fabric in Sythrapol (available from Dharma Trading Co.) thoroughly; 
Synthrapol suspends the excess dye in the water and keeps it from going 
back onto the fabric. This may take 2-3 trips through the washer.

The key to maintaining the stiffness in silks such as dupioni or duchess 
satin is to keep from washing out the sericin. Sericin is a protein-based 
glue that the silkworm produces in the spinning process. Heat (such as hot 
water) dissolves this glue, so avoiding heat is essential. The best way to 
maintain the sericin in a piece of silk is to use Procion or other 
fiber-reactive dye, and set the dye using steam with vinegar in it; Dharma 
gives instructions on how to do this in their catalog. This will set the 
dye, but will not remove the excess; silk done this way should not be 
washed, and I would even have second thoughts about dry-cleaning. If the 
sericin has already been removed, you can add some of the "stiffness" back 
by rinsing the fabric in water with a little starch.

Dawn

Dawn Jacobson
Vallejo, CA, USA

Clothes are the costumes we wear every day. 
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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Mon Aug 18 13:58:17 2003
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From: "Five Rivers" <info@5rivers.org>
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Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 14:01:48 -0400
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Subject: [h-cost] silk noile
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Status: RO

    Was it on this list or in my imagination there was a discussion
regarding the use of silk noile pre-19th century for daywear, generally
considered inferior and unsuitable for upper class or evening wear?

Regards
Lorina
Five Rivers Chapmanry ~ purveyors of quality hand-crafted cooperage
fine hand-sewn embroidered garments, historical sewing patterns & embroidery
supplies
(519) 799-5577, fax (519) 799-5418 http://www.5rivers.org  email:
info@5rivers.org

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From: "Talia" <khanson@kc.rr.com>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: RE: [h-cost] silk noile
Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 13:06:28 -0500
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Status: RO

And speaking of silk, what types are suitable for 14th-15th century
clothing? I'm a linen girl myself, don't know anything about appropriate
silks, but since I'm making a trip to the Los Angeles garment district next
month I'd like to take a look at silk. Need to know what types are suitable
for my period...

TIA,

Talia

>     Was it on this list or in my imagination there was a discussion
> regarding the use of silk noile pre-19th century for daywear, generally
> considered inferior and unsuitable for upper class or evening wear?
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Jean Waddie <anne@montgomerie.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] isabel de valois dress
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I think it comes too far forward for a pillbox type caul.  I would guess 
it's a heavily decorated flat hood, open at the back with a fall behind. 
The picture's not large enough for me to see, is there the hint of a 
black fall behind her neck?

Jean


Beteena Paradise <bkessinger@ureach.com> wrote
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Deredere Galbraith" <triade@kabelfoon.nl>
>To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
>Sent: Monday, August 18, 2003 7:12 AM
>Subject: Re: [h-cost] isabel de valois dress
>
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> I wonder what her headress is. Is it someting like a french hood?
>> Open at the back ore closed like an oval pillbox kind of hood?
>> http://www.deredere.dds.nl/16thcent_dress/16thcent_dress.html
>>
>> Greetings,
>>         Deredere
>
>I always assumed it was a sort of pillbox that was shaped a little
>differently. But that is a great question! I have been so absorbed by the
>details of the dress, I hadn't even made it up to the hat yet.
>
>Teena
>
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-- 
Jean Waddie
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Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 11:36:07 -0700
From: Kimiko Small <kimiko@kimiko1.com>
Subject: Re: On dyeing (was: [h-cost] isabel de valois dress)
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At 10:52 AM 8/18/2003 -0700, you wrote:
>The key to maintaining the stiffness in silks such as dupioni or duchess 
>satin is to keep from washing out the sericin. Sericin is a protein-based 
>glue that the silkworm produces in the spinning process. Heat (such as hot 
>water) dissolves this glue, so avoiding heat is essential. The best way to 
>maintain the sericin in a piece of silk is to use Procion or other 
>fiber-reactive dye, and set the dye using steam with vinegar in it; Dharma 
>gives instructions on how to do this in their catalog. This will set the 
>dye, but will not remove the excess; silk done this way should not be 
>washed, and I would even have second thoughts about dry-cleaning. If the 
>sericin has already been removed, you can add some of the "stiffness" back 
>by rinsing the fabric in water with a little starch.
>
>Dawn


Wow, Dawn, thanks for so much info on dyeing for the silk types. I have 
dyed wool, so I was familiar with the process, but not sure how it would go 
with silk, since all I read about that was setting painted silk with a steamer.

And I sure would hate to make this dress to find out it could never ever be 
cleaned or the satin dyed, let alone wear it to an event outside or around 
food. No wonder only the nobility would wear such garments. I wonder how 
they dealt with any cleaning issues?

I think I will ponder how to deal with the satin and dyeing issue... and is 
this really something I want to deal with.

Thanks again.

Kimiko


Kimiko Small
Costumer, Fiber Artist, Web Designer, Wife and Mother
kimiko@kimiko1.com; http://www.kimiko1.com
"When there is fear, there is no creativity" ~ C. Lowell

Graphic Intern at Costume Gallery
http://www.costumegallery.com

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Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 11:39:42 -0700
From: Kimiko Small <kimiko@kimiko1.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] isabel de valois dress
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At 08:48 AM 8/18/2003 -0400, you wrote:
>Kimiko... you know, as you are spending two years making one, it isn't that
>much effort to make another at the same time. *whistles innocently*
>
>Teena

LOL!!! Ah, ... right. I think if, major if, I do this dress, it will be one 
and only. No slight to anyone else, but I know all too well my own level of 
... patience factor when it comes to working on something.

I just have to decide if I really, really want to do this dress. It looks 
like you are on your way there already. I can't wait to see how yours turns 
out.

Kimiko



Kimiko Small
Costumer, Fiber Artist, Web Designer, Wife and Mother
kimiko@kimiko1.com; http://www.kimiko1.com
"When there is fear, there is no creativity" ~ C. Lowell

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Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 11:48:33 -0700
From: Kimiko Small <kimiko@kimiko1.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] isabel de valois dress
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At 07:22 PM 8/18/2003 +0100, you wrote:
>I think it comes too far forward for a pillbox type caul.  I would guess 
>it's a heavily decorated flat hood, open at the back with a fall behind. 
>The picture's not large enough for me to see, is there the hint of a black 
>fall behind her neck?
>
>Jean


There is a shadow behind the neck, but I can't tell if it is from a fall, 
her hair, or just a trick of the painting or light.

Kimiko



Kimiko Small
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"When there is fear, there is no creativity" ~ C. Lowell

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Subject: [h-cost] late 1580s Elizabethan style?
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Hi all,

While I am chatting about the Isabelle de Valois dress, my current project 
requires me to make something more appropriate for next year's court, which 
is 1588 or thereabouts. As I have made and dealt with earlier years, 
especially 1560, I am not sure about the look of that time.

I know the Armada dress is appropriate, as is the portrait of Elizabeth 
Brydges (who was 14), but I am not understanding the proper look and shape 
of the late 1580s from just those two gowns. How full were the bum rolls? 
Were they wearing the French farthingales yet, or is that 1590s?

Does someone here have a better understanding of what would be appropriate? 
Or any other suggestions of portraits to look at? Any info on that specific 
time period would be appreciated. And I already have Hunniset's book for 
the underpinnings, I am trying to come up with the style.

Kimiko


Kimiko Small
Costumer, Fiber Artist, Web Designer, Wife and Mother
kimiko@kimiko1.com; http://www.kimiko1.com
"When there is fear, there is no creativity" ~ C. Lowell

Graphic Intern at Costume Gallery
http://www.costumegallery.com

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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Mon Aug 18 15:24:46 2003
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From: Drea Leed <drea@nospam>
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: On dyeing (was: [h-cost] isabel de valois dress)
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So I'm wondering, how did they avoid this in period?  All of the period
silk-dyeing recipes I've found involve boiling or hot water.  Plus,
regulations (in late 16th c. England, at least) required silk dyers to
boil and scour their silk before dyeing to get rid of gum.  Yet, they
produced wonderfully shiny satins and taffetas.

Things that make you go hm,

Drea


On Mon, 18 Aug 2003, Kimiko Small wrote:

> At 10:52 AM 8/18/2003 -0700, you wrote:
> >The key to maintaining the stiffness in silks such as dupioni or duchess
> >satin is to keep from washing out the sericin. Sericin is a protein-based
> >glue that the silkworm produces in the spinning process. Heat (such as hot
> >water) dissolves this glue, so avoiding heat is essential. The best way to
> >maintain the sericin in a piece of silk is to use Procion or other
> >fiber-reactive dye, and set the dye using steam with vinegar in it; Dharma
> >gives instructions on how to do this in their catalog. This will set the
> >dye, but will not remove the excess; silk done this way should not be
> >washed, and I would even have second thoughts about dry-cleaning. If the
> >sericin has already been removed, you can add some of the "stiffness" back
> >by rinsing the fabric in water with a little starch.
> >
> >Dawn
>
>
> Wow, Dawn, thanks for so much info on dyeing for the silk types. I have
> dyed wool, so I was familiar with the process, but not sure how it would go
> with silk, since all I read about that was setting painted silk with a steamer.
>
> And I sure would hate to make this dress to find out it could never ever be
> cleaned or the satin dyed, let alone wear it to an event outside or around
> food. No wonder only the nobility would wear such garments. I wonder how
> they dealt with any cleaning issues?
>
> I think I will ponder how to deal with the satin and dyeing issue... and is
> this really something I want to deal with.
>
> Thanks again.
>
> Kimiko
>
>
> Kimiko Small
> Costumer, Fiber Artist, Web Designer, Wife and Mother
> kimiko@kimiko1.com; http://www.kimiko1.com
> "When there is fear, there is no creativity" ~ C. Lowell
>
> Graphic Intern at Costume Gallery
> http://www.costumegallery.com
>
> _______________________________________________
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From: Drea Leed <drea@nospam>
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] late 1580s Elizabethan style?
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Kimiko,

A good example of 1580s French style can be found in the painting "Dancers
at the Louvre".  The round, dome shape skirt really came into fashion in
the 1580s. Larger sleeves also came into fashion, and more often matched
the bodice than not. When they didn't, they usually matched a stomacher or
forepart. Sleeves were often seen with hanging sleeves that matched
the gown.

Doublet bodices became more popular that the classic arched-square-neck
bodice of the 70s, and picadils/tabs replaced large shoulder rolls as the
fashionable treatment.  Ruffs became wider, and narrower in depth, and
the thin lace edging expanded to the width of half the ruff or more.
The wired veil really began to come into its own in the 80s as well.

A large roll or series of rolls stitched together were used to create this
dome-like shape.

Good pictures for this style are
"Dancers at the Louvre" (c. 1580),

the portrait of Lettice Knollys,
http://costume.dm.net/gallery/images/lettice.jpg (1585)

The Sieve portrait of queen Elizabeth (80s)
(http://www.tudorhistory.org/elizabeth/elizasieve.jpg)

The Ermine Portrait (80s)
(http://www.tudor-portraits.com/Elizabeth12.jpg)

Happy sewing!

Drea

On Mon, 18 Aug 2003, Kimiko Small wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> While I am chatting about the Isabelle de Valois dress, my current project
> requires me to make something more appropriate for next year's court, which
> is 1588 or thereabouts. As I have made and dealt with earlier years,
> especially 1560, I am not sure about the look of that time.
>
> I know the Armada dress is appropriate, as is the portrait of Elizabeth
> Brydges (who was 14), but I am not understanding the proper look and shape
> of the late 1580s from just those two gowns. How full were the bum rolls?
> Were they wearing the French farthingales yet, or is that 1590s?
>
> Does someone here have a better understanding of what would be appropriate?
> Or any other suggestions of portraits to look at? Any info on that specific
> time period would be appreciated. And I already have Hunniset's book for
> the underpinnings, I am trying to come up with the style.
>
> Kimiko
>
>
> Kimiko Small
> Costumer, Fiber Artist, Web Designer, Wife and Mother
> kimiko@kimiko1.com; http://www.kimiko1.com
> "When there is fear, there is no creativity" ~ C. Lowell
>
> Graphic Intern at Costume Gallery
> http://www.costumegallery.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
>

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From: kat@grendal.rain.com
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 14:11:30 -0700
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Subject: Re: On dyeing (was: [h-cost] isabel de valois dress)
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> So I'm wondering, how did they avoid this in period?  All of the
> period silk-dyeing recipes I've found involve boiling or hot water. 
> Plus, regulations (in late 16th c. England, at least) required silk
> dyers to boil and scour their silk before dyeing to get rid of gum. 
> Yet, they produced wonderfully shiny satins and taffetas.

I suspect they got the stiffness to stay in by having higher thread 
count. Most of our fabrics have mightily few threads per inch (unless 
you start talking about bed sheets, when they start getting quite a 
bit higher.) The lower the thread count, the looser the weave, which 
makes the fabric more drapey and less stiff.

The sericin just acts like the weighting that was put into silks to 
give more body until people realized that arsenic in fabric was a bad 
thing.

Kat
<kat@redtrollforge.com>


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From: "Beteena Paradise" <bkessinger@ureach.com>
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] isabel de valois dress
Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 17:18:45 -0400
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My big problem is that I don't know how to embroider (other than cross
stitch). That sort of puts a damper on this project. However... and I am not
making this up... last night, it came to me in a dream and I woke up with a
possible solution! See where the embroidery follows the front and hem of the
overskirt? I was thinking of couching several strings of pearls together to
fill that area, about 2.5-3" strip from what I can tell. Maybe not all
pearls, perhaps I would include some round gemstones as well... like
garnets. Then for the all over design, I could pearl the dress in a similar
pattern. If I made the dress from a really cool damask, I might be able to
outline the designs. And again, maybe gemstones with the pearls. I think it
would look lovely... but be rather heavy. What do you think?

The image for those that don't have one handy:
http://www.mostlymedieval.com/isabel.htm

----- Original Message -----
From: "Kimiko Small" <kimiko@kimiko1.com>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Monday, August 18, 2003 2:39 PM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] isabel de valois dress


> At 08:48 AM 8/18/2003 -0400, you wrote:
> >Kimiko... you know, as you are spending two years making one, it isn't
that
> >much effort to make another at the same time. *whistles innocently*
> >
> >Teena
>
> LOL!!! Ah, ... right. I think if, major if, I do this dress, it will be
one
> and only. No slight to anyone else, but I know all too well my own level
of
> .. patience factor when it comes to working on something.
>
> I just have to decide if I really, really want to do this dress. It looks
> like you are on your way there already. I can't wait to see how yours
turns
> out.
>
> Kimiko
>
>
>
> Kimiko Small
> Costumer, Fiber Artist, Web Designer, Wife and Mother
> kimiko@kimiko1.com; http://www.kimiko1.com
> "When there is fear, there is no creativity" ~ C. Lowell
>
> Graphic Intern at Costume Gallery
> http://www.costumegallery.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
>
>

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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: professional dye vats Re: [h-cost] isabel de valois dress
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Lisa Sinervo wrote:

> Apart from the general description of the professional dye vat being a big
> soup kettle, you would care to pass on some more specifics as to exactly
> what a "professional" dye vat is?

A professional dye vat is actually (in my experience) an industrial soup 
kettle.  The ones I've worked with have been 60-gallon models, but they 
come in various larger and smaller sizes.  Some are electric and some 
are gas, but they're all basically an inner and outer metal shell with 
the heat running between, a dial to regulate the temperature, and a lid. 
  I believe that if you have a gas one, codes require you to have 
special venting for the pilot light.  General wisdom is that gas vats 
heat faster, but I've never worked with electric myself, so that's just 
hearsay.

The technical name for these seems to be "steam jacketed kettle," and 
they're available from various industrial cookware companies, including 
Groen and Cleveland.

Cheers,
Melanie Schuessler
http://www.faucet.net/costume

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Subject: Re: On dyeing (was: [h-cost] isabel de valois dress)
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Status: RO

Thanks to all for the dye advice!  Now, some questions:

Dawn Jacobson wrote:

> Acid dyes (Jacquard is one brand) are the preferred dyes for 
> protein-based fibers (wool, silk, camel hair, dog hair, etc.). 

This is what I used.

> Wet the fiber to be dyed, <snip>  then wash when it has completely cooled.

Well, I wish they had included these instructions with the dye! 
Thanks--I'll do it that way next time.  Is there any use for vinegar 
after it's been dyed, or is Synthrapol a better bet?

> If you find you are still having problems with dye transfer after dyeing 
> a piece of fabric, the problem is not usually color-fastness, but 
> crocking.

Yes, that's what it is--sorry for using the wrong term.

> The best way to maintain the sericin in a piece of silk is to
> use Procion or other fiber-reactive dye, and set the dye using steam 
> with vinegar in it

I do know about steam-setting, and I would have considered it except 
that I couldn't figure out how to steam-set eight yards of fabric!

Thanks again,
Melanie Schuessler
http://www.faucet.net/costume

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Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 23:10:41 +0100
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Jean Waddie <anne@montgomerie.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re. scots/celtic/fantasy type costume
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Can I jump in here, as a Scottish dancer of many years standing, and 
resident Scot?

The stuff Joe and Brenda have described is close to the mark, if it's a 
relatively formal Highland-dress wedding, or if you want to look like a 
highland or Scottish Country dancer.  When you describe it as 
"scots/celtic/fantasy", it doesn't sound to me as if that's what you're 
after. However, you can work from those basics.

If you want to look historical-ish, and/or informal, work from a tartan 
skirt (mini with Doc Martens, if that's your style, or any style/length 
down to the floor) with a white blouse, puffy sleeves, low round or 
square neck, and traditionally a velvet fitted bodice with tabs at the 
waist, either in black or a colour to go with your tartan.

If you don't like the bodice, you could wear a soft-coloured plain 
woolen skirt with the blouse and a tartan scarf/sash/shawl draped 
however you like it best.  Or replace the blouse with anything you 
prefer, or wear a plain coloured dress in a style you like with your bit 
of tartan over.  The plain dress would look more early/Celtic than a 
white blouse.

Formal is a white dress with the tartan sash.  The standard modern 
costume for performing Scottish dance is a very plain sleeveless dress, 
low round neckline, with a waist seam and circular or nearly-circular 
skirt. If you like 18th century, you can look just like Flora Macdonald 
in a fancy 18th century dress plus tartan sash, or go Victorian by 
wearing the sash draped round the front of the waist and tied in a big 
bow like a bustle at the back.

The problem with the white dress is, if you do it fancy, you might look 
too much like the bride.  I would go with some variety of the skirt and 
blouse or dress and tartan combination, and you can adapt it to your 
favourite period or style.

To inspire you:  when our friends got married (10 years ago) they told 
the guests the theme was "Gothic".  The bride wore long droopy black 
crushed velvet and lace gloves.  The groom wore tight black hose and a 
black suede doublet slashed and puffed with red silk.  And the best man 
wore a suit of 15th century plate armour.  Get creative!

Jean
-- 
Jean Waddie
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Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 17:30:13 -0500
From: Joe Robertson <joedr@charter.net>
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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re. scots/celtic/fantasy type costume
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Status: RO

Good advice, Jean!
   Please let me offer a word in my own defense. I am by no means an
authority on women's wear, regardless of the ethnicity. :o)  I've got
the guys' stuff down pat, but I can only point in the correct directions
for the rest.
Cheers,
Joe
---
Joe Robertson, Psy.D.
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From: sewinggoddess@att.net
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Banners and lined applique
Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 00:06:12 +0000
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Status: RO

 Sorry I didn't reply sooner.. long weekend at work!

    Lined applique is where you take the *fusible* side of the interfacing and place it against the *right* side of the fabric 
applique.  Sew around all edges using a 1/4" seam.   Cut a slit in the interfacing adequate enough in size to turn the 
applique through. Try to make the slit about in the middle of the applique.  Turn the applique, using a pencil or your favorite 
turning tool to turn and poke into place all the little bits and corners. DO NOT PRESS THE EDGES YET!  Place tha turned 
applique in place on *whatever* it's being  placed on. Pin if necessary to keep it lined upi where it's supposed to be.  Press 
carefully from the right side. The fusible interfacing will glue your huge applique into place. Now you can slip stitch or edge 
stitch without your applique going all over the place. 

   You can also use the lined applique technique with a thin fabric too , if you don't want to use interfacing, but it will only turn 
all  your edges under which can be half the battle in some cases!

  I hope I made it clearer for you to visualize how it's done.
Crissy
> This sounds like a really cool technique, but I am having a little trouble
> visualizing it. I know, I am a dork! Can you elaborate? Thanks!
> 
> Teena
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <sewinggoddess@att.net>
> To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
> Sent: Friday, August 15, 2003 7:41 PM
> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Banners
> 
> 
> > I've actually done three *huge* SCA banners.  I found that a large table
> to draft the applique pieces on is the biggest help.
> > Having the full size pieces drafted on paper first  to really helped me
> vizualize the overall finished size of the banners.
> >
> >   I cheated with my applique and used a lined applique techinque to turn
> all the little corners and edges and laurel wreath
> > details. Lined applique is where you line the fabric of the applique on
> the right side of the fabric with a fusible interfacing.
> > Make a small cut in the interfacing ( or a large one... depending on the
> size of the applique)  and turn the applique so the
> > fusible side of the interfacing is on the back and the right side of the
> fabric is facing out.  Lay your applique in place, press
> > lightly and it stays in place until you edge stitch or slip stitch in
> place.  I did this with Velvet applique on a satin background. I
> > think it helped me keep my sanity!
> >    If you have any other questions in mind, just e-mail me. I'll be glad
> to help.
> >
> > Crissy
> > SewingGoddess@att.net
> > >
> > >  Greetings all!
> > >
> > >  Quick question: does anyone on this list have any experience with
> banner
> > > making? What I am wanting to do is a larger scale banner as a gift for
> some
> > > friends in the SCA. So far the idea is to have the ground in a linen
> with
> > > the device done in handmade felt appliqu with wool embroidered details.
> > >
> > >  What I am looking for is any tips and tricks, success/horror stories
> and
> > > the
> > >  like. I am also wondering if a quilter's frame would be a good
> investment
> > >  for a project like this, or if I just need a large table.
> > >
> > >  Inquiring mind wants to know!  :-)
> > >
> > >  Thanks in advance,
> > >
> > >  Sheridan
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > h-costume mailing list
> > > h-costume@mail.indra.com
> > > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
> > _______________________________________________
> > h-costume mailing list
> > h-costume@mail.indra.com
> > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
> >
> >
> 
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] isabel de valois dress
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Status: RO

> I tryed to go to the page at glittersweet to se the picture again, but i
> couldnt get trough. Maybe the black out you had over there has something
to
> do with that.

I don't think so, it was yesterday that it was down not from the time of the
power outage.
They didn't contact me to say why the servers were down so I was a little
annoyed by that.
The servers are working again, so I'll hunt for my files again.

http://glittersweet.com/paynefull.jpg
http://glittersweet.com/paynehalf.jpg
http://glittersweet.com/paynebodice.jpg
http://glittersweet.com/payneembroidery.jpg embroidery of the skirt up close
http://glittersweet.com/paynefold.jpg showing how the stripes are
embroidered seperately then put on later, there are very definate folds to
get the mitred corners.

hmmmm... I'm pretty sure the "I" shapes aren't appliqued, and they are the
largest shapes in the pattern. Is this still on display in the Met?

> But as i recall the picture, i would say it was made of silk satin, a
heavy
> silk satin. The way it shades makes me think that.

Yep:) I've seen a better resolution image than the one linked, not the best
of course, but the way it puckers a little with the embroidery makes the
fabric reflect back the light in a watery way, sort of icey rather than soft
like with velvet.

> One thing you could do to easy up the embroidery was if you used gold
> coloured silks in stead of real gold thread. It is much easyer to work
with,
> and whow, if you really have the curridge to make all that embroidery, i
> surely must take my bows for you!

lol! Oh me too;) I'm being daunted by doing the counted work on the Anna
Meyer dress;)

michaela
http://costumes.glittersweet.com


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From: "Tonkin, Rebecca (PIRSA-SARDI)" <tonkin.rebecca@saugov.sa.gov.au>
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Subject: [h-cost] RE: scots/celtic/fantasy type costume  - THANKS
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Dear Joe, Brenda & Jean (and others)
thankyou thankyou thankyou!

Joe's descriptions were great and the others helped to fill out the picture.

So now I know what my choices are, I guess I have to make up my mind...
Thanks again,
Rebecca

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Subject: Re: [h-cost] isabel de valois dress
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Beteena Paradise wrote:

> My big problem is that I don't know how to embroider (other than cross
> stitch). That sort of puts a damper on this project. However... and I am
not
> making this up... last night, it came to me in a dream and I woke up with
a
> possible solution!


Excellent, did you Mendelev credits one of his dreams for coming up with his
theory for the Periodic Table of elements?

Lisa
(who often feels like Dorthy, running into people who appear in her dreams,
and has life alterning events happen when she loses or buys new shoes!)




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From: "Lisa Sinervo" <Lisa-list@threadneedlest.com>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
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Subject: Re: On dyeing (was: [h-cost] isabel de valois dress)
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 "Melanie Schuessler" > 
> I do know about steam-setting, and I would have considered it except 
> that I couldn't figure out how to steam-set eight yards of fabric!
> 
Take it to the dry cleaners!  They often do such jobs.

Lisa Sinervo
www.ThrednedleStrete.com





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Subject: Re: [h-cost] RE: scots/celtic/fantasy type costume  - THANKS
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Glad to be of service, my dear. :o)
Joe
---
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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Mon Aug 18 23:04:44 2003
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For information of historical Scots/Celtic costume, I would recommend
"Beyond the Pale: A Survey of Gaelic Garb 1500 -1650", by Lord Cormac
MacClium O'Domniall.  Unfortunately, it was written in 1987, and copies are
somewhat rare. Though, I have heard that copies are still being sold in the
SCA and at Pennsic.  It contains a history and suggestion on how to
construct the garments.

If someone is still selling copies, I would be interested in knowing who
and where.  I do know that the author is trying to find the time to revise
and update the book.

Your humble and obediant servant,
David S Mallinak
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Subject: [h-cost] Template method
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I found out about the template method after making dolls for 15 years, & 
was I ever glad.

For dolls, the pattern is traced on doubled fabric, which is all pinned 
together.
The sewing line is sewed upon, leaving an opening for turning.
Cut out, clip as necessary, turn &c

Absolutely much easier for baby dolls with wrists about 6mm in 
circumference (not that anything cloth is terribly easy at that scale; I 
tear through the tiny fists half the time, and I am quite experienced at 
doll making).


I have heard rumors that some haute couture is sewn with only the seam 
lines marked, so they're never line-up-the-edges-&-sew.

Ann in CT


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Subject: Re: On dyeing (was: [h-cost] isabel de valois dress)
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Lisa Sinervo wrote:
>  "Melanie Schuessler" > 
> 
>>I do know about steam-setting, and I would have considered it except 
>>that I couldn't figure out how to steam-set eight yards of fabric!
>>
> 
> Take it to the dry cleaners!  They often do such jobs.

Really?  I never would have thought of that.  Though the dry cleaners 
where I live would probably think I was crazy.

Thanks,
Melanie Schuessler
http://www.faucet.net/costume

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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Tue Aug 19 00:05:07 2003
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From: "Wanda Pease" <wandap@hevanet.com>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: RE: [h-cost] belt hardware question
Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 21:05:25 -0700
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I don't know if you have gotten adequate answers to this one yet, but having
just returned from Pennsic, may I recommend you check the Raymond's Quiet
Press site?  I camped with merchants just across from Ray, and the belt
fittings he has are wonderfully like these (along with many others) and
quite inexpensive.  I think I spent about $100 and picked up 7 pieces of
lovely recreations.  I heard someone say that one of his supplier's is also
working for the British Museum Shop.

Regina Romsey

> -----Original Message-----
> From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com]On
> Behalf Of Elizabeth Young
> Sent: Friday, August 08, 2003 5:43 PM
> To: Historical Costume
> Subject: [h-cost] belt hardware question
>
>
> Anyone know where I can get good quality repro belt hardware (mid-late
> 16th century) as seen in this portrait of the tailor?
> http://gallery.euroweb.hu/art/m/moroni/taylor.jpg
>
> thanks
> liz young
>
>
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From: "Lisa Sinervo" <Lisa-list@threadneedlest.com>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
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Subject: Re: On dyeing (was: [h-cost] isabel de valois dress)
Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 21:29:11 -0700
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My first ever paying taxes job was the counter girl at the local
drycleaners, mostly because the town was too small to have a Macdonalds,
although there was a Dairy Queen.  I felt lucky to have a job even if I did
have to brush dead skin out of people's pockets with a shoe shine brush.
Every job since has been a step up from that.... I
digress.........but......I did get to see what sort of equipment a
professional dry cleaners has and one thing they have for sure, is an
endless supply of steam! Generally a dry cleaning outfit will  have a huge
boiler going.   It's often worth having a chat to such folks even if they do
think you're crazy.

When sewing something really important, I used to take, say the outer shell
of a jacket, in to be pressed before adding lining because the pressure the
equipment they have is hard to match at home, although I do have a little
elna press now, which comes pretty close.

Anyway, just a suggestion.

Lisa Sinervo
www.ThrednedleStrete.com



----- Original Message -----
From: "Melanie Schuessler" <melanie@faucet.net>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Monday, August 18, 2003 9:21 PM
Subject: Re: On dyeing (was: [h-cost] isabel de valois dress)


> Lisa Sinervo wrote:
> >  "Melanie Schuessler" >
> >
> >>I do know about steam-setting, and I would have considered it except
> >>that I couldn't figure out how to steam-set eight yards of fabric!
> >>
> >
> > Take it to the dry cleaners!  They often do such jobs.
>
> Really?  I never would have thought of that.  Though the dry cleaners
> where I live would probably think I was crazy.
>
> Thanks,
> Melanie Schuessler
> http://www.faucet.net/costume
>
> _______________________________________________
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> >>I do know about steam-setting, and I would have considered it except
> >> that I couldn't figure out how to steam-set eight yards of fabric!

> > Take it to the dry cleaners!  They often do such jobs.
> 
> Really?  I never would have thought of that.  Though the dry cleaners
> where I live would probably think I was crazy.

> Melanie Schuessler
> http://www.faucet.net/costume

Not if they know their stuff. If they say that it's not necessary or 
that they don't do that sort of thing, take it to someone who will 
(for all your dry cleaning.) 

I usually interview my dry cleaners before I take my clothes to them, 
let alone my fabric. If they don't know that dry cleaning can shrink 
fabric (for example) they probably don't really know that much about 
fabric and might ruin your stuff.

Kat
<kat@redtrollforge.com>


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Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 20:24:34 -0700
From: Kimiko Small <kimiko@kimiko1.com>
Subject: Re: On dyeing (was: [h-cost] isabel de valois dress)
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At 11:21 PM 8/18/2003 -0500, you wrote:
>Lisa Sinervo wrote:
>>  "Melanie Schuessler" >
>>>I do know about steam-setting, and I would have considered it except 
>>>that I couldn't figure out how to steam-set eight yards of fabric!
>>Take it to the dry cleaners!  They often do such jobs.
>
>Really?  I never would have thought of that.  Though the dry cleaners 
>where I live would probably think I was crazy.


I would suggest calling around first. Many of the dry cleaners in my city 
won't do special requests, because they prefer batch jobs of things, and 
send them all to one place anyway. But a few are really good dry cleaners 
who do the work on premises, and they are the only ones I would dare send 
the good costumes to anyway. But I will admit, I hadn't thought of asking 
them to do the steam setting on large yardages.

Kimiko



Kimiko Small
Costumer, Fiber Artist, Web Designer, Wife and Mother
kimiko@kimiko1.com; http://www.kimiko1.com
"When there is fear, there is no creativity" ~ C. Lowell

Graphic Intern at Costume Gallery
http://www.costumegallery.com

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Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 20:39:21 -0700
From: Kimiko Small <kimiko@kimiko1.com>
Subject: Re: On dyeing (was: [h-cost] isabel de valois dress)
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At 02:11 PM 8/18/2003 -0700, you wrote:
>I suspect they got the stiffness to stay in by having higher thread
>count. Most of our fabrics have mightily few threads per inch (unless
>you start talking about bed sheets, when they start getting quite a
>bit higher.) The lower the thread count, the looser the weave, which
>makes the fabric more drapey and less stiff.


But what about today's Duchess satin? It seemed pretty heavy to me, and 
rather stiff. Was that from the sizing and serecin?

Kimiko



Kimiko Small
Costumer, Fiber Artist, Web Designer, Wife and Mother
kimiko@kimiko1.com; http://www.kimiko1.com
"When there is fear, there is no creativity" ~ C. Lowell

Graphic Intern at Costume Gallery
http://www.costumegallery.com

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Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 20:46:16 -0700
From: Kimiko Small <kimiko@kimiko1.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] isabel de valois dress
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At 05:18 PM 8/18/2003 -0400, you wrote:
>I think it
>would look lovely... but be rather heavy. What do you think?

Back the fabric with something, an interfacing, or a heavier material, 
before you start the beading.

But the best suggestion I can make is to make a sample, and see if it 
really gets heavy on you, and to test out the beading pattern.

But the idea in general sounds rather lovely to me.

Kimiko



Kimiko Small
Costumer, Fiber Artist, Web Designer, Wife and Mother
kimiko@kimiko1.com; http://www.kimiko1.com
"When there is fear, there is no creativity" ~ C. Lowell

Graphic Intern at Costume Gallery
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At 01:31 PM 8/19/2003 +1200, you wrote:
>http://glittersweet.com/paynefold.jpg showing how the stripes are
>embroidered seperately then put on later, there are very definate folds to
>get the mitred corners.


Wow, it looks as if the whole strip is embroidered separately, then sewn 
into place, as the mitered strips are both the embroidered part, and the 
"ribbons" for lack of a better descriptor.

Thanks for posting these photos. I wish I had the book they come from, but 
I have yet to find it.

Kimiko



Kimiko Small
Costumer, Fiber Artist, Web Designer, Wife and Mother
kimiko@kimiko1.com; http://www.kimiko1.com
"When there is fear, there is no creativity" ~ C. Lowell

Graphic Intern at Costume Gallery
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From: Kimiko Small <kimiko@kimiko1.com>
Subject: Re: On dyeing (was: [h-cost] isabel de valois dress)
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At 09:29 PM 8/18/2003 -0700, you wrote:
>My first ever paying taxes job was the counter girl at the local
>drycleaners, mostly because the town was too small to have a Macdonalds,
>although there was a Dairy Queen.


I grew up in a small town with two wonderful dry cleaners, who could do 
just about anything I or my parents needed. We didn't get the fast food 
place until I got into high school, which was a marvel in that town back then.

But when I moved to the big city, then I learned how wonderful those small 
town dry cleaners really are. Too many "mass cleaners" here, and I hates 
thems I do!

Had to share...
Kimiko


Kimiko Small
Costumer, Fiber Artist, Web Designer, Wife and Mother
kimiko@kimiko1.com; http://www.kimiko1.com
"When there is fear, there is no creativity" ~ C. Lowell

Graphic Intern at Costume Gallery
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Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 20:37:55 -0700
From: Kimiko Small <kimiko@kimiko1.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] late 1580s Elizabethan style?
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At 04:06 PM 8/18/2003 -0400, you wrote:
>Happy sewing!
>
>Drea


Wow Drea, thanks so much for pointing me in the right direction. I am still 
looking for "Dancers at the Louvre", as there is only a small detail pic 
online (via google), but I think I have it somewhere in my collection of 
books. Gotta be in there somewhere.

Now to peruse the details and figure out what would work for me. I am 
hoping for a burgundy/ dark madder color in a cotton velvet. I know that 
color was available, at least in some of the tapestries and paintings I 
have seen (I checked). I think the velvet I have found will work, I just 
need samples from the site before making up my mind.

Thanks again!

Kimiko



Kimiko Small
Costumer, Fiber Artist, Web Designer, Wife and Mother
kimiko@kimiko1.com; http://www.kimiko1.com
"When there is fear, there is no creativity" ~ C. Lowell

Graphic Intern at Costume Gallery
http://www.costumegallery.com

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Subject: [h-cost] Cool site for dating old photos
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My dear mum sent me this.  It's a treasure trove of old photos and
information on how to date them by year.  It's a great free resource. I
think it's mostly for geneology, but what the heck!

http://www.cartes.fsnet.co.uk/index.htm

angela
+++++
Angela F. Lazear
Cabbage Rose Costumes
http://www.cabbagerosecostumes.com
Theatrical Costume Design

"Love all, trust a few, do wrong to none:
be able for thine enemy rather in power than use,
and keep thy friend under thy own life's key:
be checked for silence, but never taxed for speech..."
W. Shakespeare

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Subject: [h-cost] Extremely historical clothing
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Theories about when humans started wearing clothing: about 70,000 years 
ago, according to analysis of the genetics of human body lice.

http://www.cnn.com/2003/TECH/science/08/18/offbeat.ancient.lice.reut/index.html

-- 
Cynthia Virtue and/or
Cynthia du Pr Argent

Medieval horseman with hound and hawk T-shirt: http://store.virtue.to
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Would someone please send me the email address and name of the woman
publishing the new vintange fashion magazine? Also the name of the magazine?
I lost it and I want to ask her something.

Thanks!

Gail Finke

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From: Drea Leed <drea@nospam>
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] late 1580s Elizabethan style?
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>
> Wow Drea, thanks so much for pointing me in the right direction. I am still
> looking for "Dancers at the Louvre", as there is only a small detail pic
> online (via google), but I think I have it somewhere in my collection of
> books. Gotta be in there somewhere.

I looked for it too, but couldn't find it...I have a copy in my pic
collection at home, but didn't see anything online from a quick search.

I only noticed after sending my email that you had specified "late" 1580s.
As 1590 approached, the flat-topped birthday cake look became more and
more prevalent, and gowns began to resemble the stereotypical portraits
you see of the 1590s of Queen Elizabeth and other women.
 >
> Now to peruse the details and figure out what would work for me. I am
> hoping for a burgundy/ dark madder color in a cotton velvet. I know that
> color was available, at least in some of the tapestries and paintings I
> have seen (I checked). I think the velvet I have found will work, I just
> need samples from the site before making up my mind.

http://www.phoenixtextiles.com is currently having a very evil sale of
several shades of cotton velvet and velveteen...

Sounds like it will be lovely!

Drea

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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Tue Aug 19 09:33:16 2003
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Cool site for dating old photos
Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 09:30:59 -0400
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What a great site. I don't do Victorian or Edwardian (mainly because I have
no excuse to!), but it was interesting to see how the styles evolved and
what was "in" for a particular year. Thanks for sharing that!

Teena
----- Original Message -----
From: "Angela F. Lazear" <angelalazear@sbcglobal.net>
To: <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Tuesday, August 19, 2003 2:12 AM
Subject: [h-cost] Cool site for dating old photos


> My dear mum sent me this.  It's a treasure trove of old photos and
> information on how to date them by year.  It's a great free resource. I
> think it's mostly for geneology, but what the heck!
>
> http://www.cartes.fsnet.co.uk/index.htm
>
> angela
> +++++
> Angela F. Lazear
> Cabbage Rose Costumes
> http://www.cabbagerosecostumes.com
> Theatrical Costume Design
>
> "Love all, trust a few, do wrong to none:
> be able for thine enemy rather in power than use,
> and keep thy friend under thy own life's key:
> be checked for silence, but never taxed for speech..."
> W. Shakespeare
>
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
>
>

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Subject: Re: [h-cost] new vintage magazine
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Gail & Scott Finke"
>
>
> Would someone please send me the email address and name of the woman
> publishing the new vintange fashion magazine? Also the name of the
magazine?
> I lost it and I want to ask her something.
>
> Thanks!
>
> Gail Finke


Sure, here it is:

Julia     fashionreporting@aol.com

Sheridan



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From: Deredere Galbraith <triade@kabelfoon.nl>
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Subject: [h-cost] Problem with dress 1340
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Hi,

I am in a hurry to finish a dress from about 1340. Fitted dress with 
buttons in front and on the sleeves.
But I have a problem. The body is too small and doesn't close at the front.
I was wondering if it is ok when I make a seem at the waist and make a 
new bodice or that I have to replace the front panels.

Greetings,
        Deredere


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From: Robin Netherton <robin@shell.nightowl.net>
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Problem with dress 1340
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On Tue, 19 Aug 2003, Deredere Galbraith wrote:

> I am in a hurry to finish a dress from about 1340. Fitted dress with 
> buttons in front and on the sleeves.
> But I have a problem. The body is too small and doesn't close at the front.
> I was wondering if it is ok when I make a seem at the waist and make a 
> new bodice or that I have to replace the front panels.

If it were me, I'd replace the front panels. There's no sign of waist
seams in this period, and they're pretty obvious when you use them.

Some thoughts, though, before you do that.

1. How tight is too tight, and how did it get that way? If it seemed right
during fittings but isn't right when you put it on now, it may be a
function of warmth. My fitted dresses show a gap of 2-3 inches when I
first put them on, but after they've been on about 5-10 minutes I can
close them. Of course, I'm assuming you've got a natural fabric. It may be
that you can let out the tiniest bit on the various body seams and
accomplish what you need.

2. Have you put buttons down the front already? Interestingly, it's
exceedingly rare to find a fitted dress with buttons both the front and
the sleeves. Usually it's the underdress that has buttoned sleeves, and
these generally don't have buttons on the front (where they'll be covered
by the overdress). An overdress that has buttons down the front may in
rare cases have buttons on the sleeves too, but generally the visual image
of buttons in both places comes from the combination of a buttoned-sleeve
underdress showing from beneath a front-buttoned and short-sleeved
overdress. If you haven't yet put the buttons and buttonholes at the
front, consider doing a lacing, which might save you a little fabric if
you don't need as much overlap.

--Robin


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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Problem with dress 1340
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You could add a panel under the arms at the side seams.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Deredere Galbraith" <triade@kabelfoon.nl>
To: "H-Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Tuesday, August 19, 2003 2:27 PM
Subject: [h-cost] Problem with dress 1340


> Hi,
>
> I am in a hurry to finish a dress from about 1340. Fitted dress with
> buttons in front and on the sleeves.
> But I have a problem. The body is too small and doesn't close at the
front.
> I was wondering if it is ok when I make a seem at the waist and make a
> new bodice or that I have to replace the front panels.
>
> Greetings,
>         Deredere
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
>
>

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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Danielle Nunn-Weinberg <dannw@mn.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Perfect outfit
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At 06:24 PM 8/15/2003 -0700, you wrote:
>And my fantasy would be an orchestrated event --at which I could wear an 
>entire wardrobe of Regency clothes over the course of an entire week at 
>some country manor :) Maybe a dozen or so  other people participating. 
>There would be all sorts of outings, pic-nics, riding, etc . And I would 
>need not only a good ladies' maid --but an excellent butler and cook , as 
>well:)LOL!
>Albra

Oooooo!  If you do pick me!  I would *love* to do something like that and I 
even own a gold lorgnette now so I can have fun playing a grande dame.  <G>

Cheers,
Danielle

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Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 17:39:34 -0500
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Danielle Nunn-Weinberg <dannw@mn.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] isabel de valois dress
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Greetings,

Actually I think (despite the dark rectangular shape behind her head) that 
it is jewels (possibly a necklace) wrapped around her braids/head.]

Here are a couple of examples so you can get an idea of what I mean:
http://www.abcgallery.com/C/clouet/frclouet1.html

In this one you can see how the ends of the necklace cross over:
http://cgfa.sunsite.dk/c/p-clouet5.htm

Although I have no proof at all, I think it was open at the back...

Cheers,
Danielle

At 01:12 PM 8/18/2003 +0200, you wrote:
>Hi,
>
>I wonder what her headress is. Is it someting like a french hood?
>Open at the back ore closed like an oval pillbox kind of hood?
>http://www.deredere.dds.nl/16thcent_dress/16thcent_dress.html
>
>Greetings,
>        Deredere

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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Tue Aug 19 19:31:06 2003
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Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 23:28:43 +0000
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 My Uncle used to own several drycleaning businesses and gave me the best tip I've ever heard on making sure my 
fancy gowns come out clean. Ask the drycleaners what day(s) they change the solution.  Really big reputable drycleaners 
usually change the soultion once a week, sometimes twice a week. Ask to have your dress/outfit clenaed on that day, 
even if it means waiting a week or so.   He would always save any wedding dresses or special requests for the first runs 
through the "new" solution.    If they don't know when the soulution gets changed...go someplace else! It probably hasn't 
been changed in a really long time.

Crissy


> At 09:29 PM 8/18/2003 -0700, you wrote:
> >My first ever paying taxes job was the counter girl at the local
> >drycleaners, mostly because the town was too small to have a Macdonalds,
> >although there was a Dairy Queen.
> 
> 
> I grew up in a small town with two wonderful dry cleaners, who could do 
> just about anything I or my parents needed. We didn't get the fast food 
> place until I got into high school, which was a marvel in that town back then.
> 
> But when I moved to the big city, then I learned how wonderful those small 
> town dry cleaners really are. Too many "mass cleaners" here, and I hates 
> thems I do!
> 
> Had to share...
> Kimiko
> 
> 
> Kimiko Small
> Costumer, Fiber Artist, Web Designer, Wife and Mother
> kimiko@kimiko1.com; http://www.kimiko1.com
> "When there is fear, there is no creativity" ~ C. Lowell
> 
> Graphic Intern at Costume Gallery
> http://www.costumegallery.com
> 
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com

> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

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From: KATHRYN WOLTERS <albrakat7@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Perfect outfit
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
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mmmm---I'm beginning to think that maybe I should seriously try to make that fantasy come true:) Several of my costumning  friends off list also got enthusiastic about doing  this idea. I'll have to give it some more  thought---how to make it economically feasible for'  Ladies with Less than an Heiress' Imcome'?? 
Albra
Danielle Nunn-Weinberg <dannw@mn.rr.com> wrote:
At 06:24 PM 8/15/2003 -0700, you wrote:
>And my fantasy would be an orchestrated event --at which I could wear an 
>entire wardrobe of Regency clothes over the course of an entire week at 
>some country manor :) Maybe a dozen or so other people participating. 
>There would be all sorts of outings, pic-nics, riding, etc . And I would 
>need not only a good ladies' maid --but an excellent butler and cook , as 
>well:)LOL!
>Albra

Oooooo! If you do pick me! I would *love* to do something like that and I 
even own a gold lorgnette now so I can have fun playing a grande dame. 

Cheers,
Danielle

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From: Robin Netherton <robin@shell.nightowl.net>
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] late 1580s Elizabethan style?
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On Mon, 18 Aug 2003, Drea Leed wrote:

> A good example of 1580s French style can be found in the painting
> "Dancers at the Louvre".

Someone said she was having trouble finding this. I haven't heard this
title before, but it sounds as though you're talking about the painting
often called the "Wedding of the Duc de Joyeuse" or the "Bal of the Duc de
Joyeuse," which occurred in 1581 at the court of Henri III. This is the
one that shows women in big rolls, both standing and sitting, front and
back. It's reproduced in a lot of books; I have a nice two-page spread
here in "Princely Feasts and Festivals." A small b/w is in Davenport, fig.
1288 (in the second volume for those of us with two-volume sets). The next
image in Davenport, #1289, is of the same look and might be a companion
piece, but it shows a different ball, that of the Duc of Alencon.

I don't think the dancers were at the Louvre, but the paintings are there
now. I saw them there a few years ago, and was surprised at how very small
the paintings are.

--Robin

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Subject: [h-cost] Links on Drea's sight... a forward
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This is a message sent to me by a friend to forward on his behalf. I 
agreed to send it along.
Laurie

From: Daniel P. Bronson <dbronson@rny.com>
Date: Tue Aug 19, 2003  11:43:30 AM America/New_York
To: rob and laurie gage <randl@adelphia.net>
Subject: Hmmm...

In my flurry of post-pennsic reading, I discovered Drea's Elizabethan 
smock generator.  Trouble is, it's broken.  Most of the images don't 
load.  Also, none of the email links on her site are live.  I don't 
suppose you have her email address anywhere?  I'd like to call this 
problem to her attention.

--Dan

Crime and Religion should never be 'organized.'
When they are, people die in large numbers.

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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Perfect outfit
Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 22:12:57 -0400
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I would definitely travel for it!!

----- Original Message -----
From: "KATHRYN WOLTERS" <albrakat7@yahoo.com>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Tuesday, August 19, 2003 8:29 PM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Perfect outfit


> mmmm---I'm beginning to think that maybe I should seriously try to make
that fantasy come true:) Several of my costumning  friends off list also got
enthusiastic about doing  this idea. I'll have to give it some more
thought---how to make it economically feasible for'  Ladies with Less than
an Heiress' Imcome'??
> Albra
> Danielle Nunn-Weinberg <dannw@mn.rr.com> wrote:
> At 06:24 PM 8/15/2003 -0700, you wrote:
> >And my fantasy would be an orchestrated event --at which I could wear an
> >entire wardrobe of Regency clothes over the course of an entire week at
> >some country manor :) Maybe a dozen or so other people participating.
> >There would be all sorts of outings, pic-nics, riding, etc . And I would
> >need not only a good ladies' maid --but an excellent butler and cook , as
> >well:)LOL!
> >Albra
>
> Oooooo! If you do pick me! I would *love* to do something like that and I
> even own a gold lorgnette now so I can have fun playing a grande dame.
>
> Cheers,
> Danielle
>
> _______________________________________________
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> ---------------------------------
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> The blackworkd embroidered shift is one Drea talks about on her web site
and
> has photos up. The other one is a 17th c. one, sorry the case was very
dark,
> but some of the emb roidered motifs came out nicely. The fan is 16th c.
> apparently, and so is the fabric & applique.

Thank you:)

Now I do have a question about the blackworked shift. Drea says:
"This smock is of fine white linen, embroidered with black silk (probably
from Spain, according to the V&A) in stem, back and darning stitches with
buttonhole fillings. The body and sleeves were made of a very fine silk,
while the skirt (now missing--what's seen in the picture is a modern
replacement) was made of a coarser linen. The lace is also a modern
reproduction, copied from a period piece."

Is the line "made of a very fine silk" a typo? As the first sentance is
about how it is a fine linen. I looked at the close ups and there does
appear to be a counted aspect to it (fill in stitches in a step pattern etc)
is this what it appears to be? Counted rather than free form?

I'm hoping it's silk for personal reasons but I'm not holding out much
hope;) I'm trying to find counted blackwork on silk you see...

michaela
http://costumes.glittersweet.com



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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Wed Aug 20 00:41:39 2003
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A good dry cleaner is a treasure.  The one we used regularly unfortunately 
closed a few years ago - I think the owner needed/wanted to retire and 
there was no one to take over the business.  They would do test bits for 
free (to see if paint or marker or whatever would take the cleaning 
process), and also not charge to remove and replace buttons.  They even 
removed and replaced some strings of plastic beads on one costume.  They 
were totally fascinated by our stuff.  They only messed up once, when they 
had a new employee who didn't know about our stuff - they ran it thru a 
regular process instead of by themselves at a lower temp - the plastic 
jewels melted and all the glitter on the velvet came off.  They couldn't 
fix it, but they did comp us the entire batch (would have been well over 
$100).  They also did the costumes for the Community Playhouse.

That's one hint - try to find the cleaners used by any theatrical groups in 
your city - they'll be used to seeing unusual stuff.  Also, one of our 
local cleaners has started using a new process - using carbon dioxide in 
some fashion - it's a very low temp process and has worked very well on the 
modern delicate rayon stuff I've taken in.  I asked them about beads and 
plastic jewels, and they said that since there were no petro-solvents used 
and the temp was well below that of bath water, they should be fine.  I 
haven't sent them a test bit yet - most of the things we've done recently 
have been washable.  Perhaps there is a cleaner in your area using this 
process as well.

HTH,
Sandy

>I grew up in a small town with two wonderful dry cleaners, who could do
>just about anything I or my parents needed. We didn't get the fast food
>place until I got into high school, which was a marvel in that town back then.
>
>But when I moved to the big city, then I learned how wonderful those small
>town dry cleaners really are. Too many "mass cleaners" here, and I hates
>thems I do!
>
>Had to share...
>Kimiko

"Those Who Fail To Learn History
Are Doomed To Repeat It;
Those Who Fail To Learn History Correctly--
Why They Are Simply Doomed."

Achemdro'hm
"The Illusion of Historical Fact"
-- C.Y. 4971

Andromeda


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Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 22:45:32 -0700
From: Kimiko Small <kimiko@kimiko1.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] isabel de valois dress
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At 05:39 PM 8/19/2003 -0500, you wrote:
>Here are a couple of examples so you can get an idea of what I mean:
>http://www.abcgallery.com/C/clouet/frclouet1.html

Who is this person in the image? The image looks familiar.

>In this one you can see how the ends of the necklace cross over:
>http://cgfa.sunsite.dk/c/p-clouet5.htm

Wow, I had seen this one years ago, but I don't remember who it is. Is it 
another of Isabella? Is it someone else? All that is noted on this page is 
the name of the image, Clouet, which is the painter.

And thanks for the images. I think I understand what you are trying to say 
about it being more "jewelry" in the hair, than a bejeweled hat.

Kimiko



Kimiko Small
Costumer, Fiber Artist, Web Designer, Wife and Mother
kimiko@kimiko1.com; http://www.kimiko1.com
"When there is fear, there is no creativity" ~ C. Lowell

Graphic Intern at Costume Gallery
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Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 22:42:15 -0700
From: Kimiko Small <kimiko@kimiko1.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] late 1580s Elizabethan style?
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At 08:33 PM 8/19/2003 -0500, you wrote:
>Someone said she was having trouble finding this. I haven't heard this
>title before, but it sounds as though you're talking about the painting
>often called the "Wedding of the Duc de Joyeuse" or the "Bal of the Duc de
>Joyeuse," which occurred in 1581 at the court of Henri III.

Well I found a detail from the painting at
http://www.elegantarts.org/renjoy.html

And a small, but the full image of the same at
http://www.silesiancramer.com/art/english/16_wedding.htm

Thanks for giving us the name of the image. Now I know what I am looking 
for and at.

Kimiko



Kimiko Small
Costumer, Fiber Artist, Web Designer, Wife and Mother
kimiko@kimiko1.com; http://www.kimiko1.com
"When there is fear, there is no creativity" ~ C. Lowell

Graphic Intern at Costume Gallery
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Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 22:52:53 -0700
From: Kimiko Small <kimiko@kimiko1.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] late 1580s Elizabethan style?
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At 09:08 AM 8/19/2003 -0400, you wrote:
>I only noticed after sending my email that you had specified "late" 1580s.
>As 1590 approached, the flat-topped birthday cake look became more and
>more prevalent, and gowns began to resemble the stereotypical portraits
>you see of the 1590s of Queen Elizabeth and other women.

Hmmm... the year I am going for is 1588, with something close to the Armada 
portrait in shape. Would this be more rounded, or more "the flat-topped 
birthday cake look"? The big sleeves are blocking my view of the hips, so I 
am not sure of what I am seeing.

><snip>>
>
>http://www.phoenixtextiles.com is currently having a very evil sale of
>several shades of cotton velvet and velveteen...

That's the place I am looking at, if not my local store.

>Sounds like it will be lovely!

If it comes out right, I hope it will be. Different for our court, as only 
the lady playing the Queen currently wears a look of the 1580s. She has her 
gown actually based on the Armada portrait.


>Drea

Thanks again Drea, you are a wonderful font of info.

Kimiko


Kimiko Small
Costumer, Fiber Artist, Web Designer, Wife and Mother
kimiko@kimiko1.com; http://www.kimiko1.com
"When there is fear, there is no creativity" ~ C. Lowell

Graphic Intern at Costume Gallery
http://www.costumegallery.com

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Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 22:34:22 -0700
From: Kimiko Small <kimiko@kimiko1.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: Dry cleaners
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At 11:39 PM 8/19/2003 -0500, you wrote:
>That's one hint - try to find the cleaners used by any theatrical groups 
>in your city - they'll be used to seeing unusual stuff.  Also, one of our 
>local cleaners has started using a new process - using carbon dioxide in 
>some fashion - it's a very low temp process and has worked very well on 
>the modern delicate rayon stuff I've taken in.  I asked them about beads 
>and plastic jewels, and they said that since there were no petro-solvents 
>used and the temp was well below that of bath water, they should be 
>fine.  I haven't sent them a test bit yet - most of the things we've done 
>recently have been washable.  Perhaps there is a cleaner in your area 
>using this process as well.


Oh wow, thanks for the info. I will have to ask around since my new 
costumes are not going to be wash and wear friendly like my old Scots stuff.

Kimiko


Kimiko Small
Costumer, Fiber Artist, Web Designer, Wife and Mother
kimiko@kimiko1.com; http://www.kimiko1.com
"When there is fear, there is no creativity" ~ C. Lowell

Graphic Intern at Costume Gallery
http://www.costumegallery.com

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From: =?iso-8859-1?q?N=20Kipar?= <nicolas_fouquet@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] blackwork questions Re: 1st batch V&A photos: 
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 --- michaela <thebruce@ihug.co.nz> wrote: > > 
> I'm hoping it's silk for personal reasons but I'm not holding out much
> hope;) I'm trying to find counted blackwork on silk you see...
> 
> michaela
> http://costumes.glittersweet.com

Ugh, dear, you don't wnat to wear silk next to your body, it gets slimy with
the body heat/sweat. Bleuch! ;-)

Nicole

=====
Artemis - One of the Three Baroque Lurve Goddess    
http://www.kipar.org/temp/baroque-lurve-goddesses.jpg

Email: nicole@kipar.org
URL: http://www.kipar.org

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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Wed Aug 20 06:56:20 2003
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From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" <drewscph@post12.tele.dk>
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Subject: [h-cost] embroidered stomacher
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Hi.
I have now made half of the embroidered stomacher.
You know, the one i told you of i made from fragments of real early 18th
century embroidery patterns. Margaretha Helms, a german lady who published
her patterns in 1720ies.
I have used Eterna silk floss, and only 1 thread, it takes some time, but
the result is worth all the work.
http://www.my-drewscostumes.dk/helmspatterns.htm
Hope you enjoy.
I finally found what i want to make this winter. I borrowed a french costume
book at the library, and there is a lovely french court dress, embroidered
off cause with silver bobbin lace on the front stomacher wich is pinned on
outside the bodice, and then embroidery on the skirts.
wonderfull to deside to something new.

Bjarne






Leif og Bjarne Drews
www.my-drewscostumes.dk

http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/


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From: Drea Leed <drea@nospam>
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Links on Drea's sight... a forward
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Status: RO

Dan,

I just checked my smock generator site, and it worked OK for me...what
measurements did you put in?

As for my email address, when you click on the link, a java script opens
up a mail window to email me.  I did this instead of straight mailto
links, due to the 200+ a day plague of spam that having my email address
on my site caused.  I've tested this email functionality for netscape and
IE on both PC and mac, and it's been coming up ok for me.  Do you have
javascript disabled on your browser?  What browser version and platform do
you use?

Thanks,

Drea

On Tue, 19 Aug 2003, rob and laurie gage wrote:

> This is a message sent to me by a friend to forward on his behalf. I
> agreed to send it along.
> Laurie
>
> From: Daniel P. Bronson <dbronson@rny.com>
> Date: Tue Aug 19, 2003  11:43:30 AM America/New_York
> To: rob and laurie gage <randl@adelphia.net>
> Subject: Hmmm...
>
> In my flurry of post-pennsic reading, I discovered Drea's Elizabethan
> smock generator.  Trouble is, it's broken.  Most of the images don't
> load.  Also, none of the email links on her site are live.  I don't
> suppose you have her email address anywhere?  I'd like to call this
> problem to her attention.
>
> --Dan
>
> Crime and Religion should never be 'organized.'
> When they are, people die in large numbers.
>
> _______________________________________________
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> h-costume@mail.indra.com
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] embroidered stomacher
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Bjarne, it is already very beautiful! Your is wonderful!
Albra

Bjarne og Leif Drews <drewscph@post12.tele.dk> wrote:
Hi.
I have now made half of the embroidered stomacher.
You know, the one i told you of i made from fragments of real early 18th
century embroidery patterns. Margaretha Helms, a german lady who published
her patterns in 1720ies.
I have used Eterna silk floss, and only 1 thread, it takes some time, but
the result is worth all the work.
http://www.my-drewscostumes.dk/helmspatterns.htm
Hope you enjoy.
I finally found what i want to make this winter. I borrowed a french costume
book at the library, and there is a lovely french court dress, embroidered
off cause with silver bobbin lace on the front stomacher wich is pinned on
outside the bodice, and then embroidery on the skirts.
wonderfull to deside to something new.

Bjarne






Leif og Bjarne Drews
www.my-drewscostumes.dk

http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/


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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Wed Aug 20 10:26:00 2003
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: Dry Cleaners
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> Also, one of our 
>local cleaners has started using a new process - using carbon dioxide in 
>some fashion - it's a very low temp process and has worked very well on 
>the modern delicate rayon stuff I've taken in. I asked them about beads 
>and plastic jewels, and they said that since there were no petro-solvents 
>used and the temp was well below that of bath water, they should be 
>fine.

Sounds like the new liquid CO2 systems.  One of the companies producing it 
set up a franchise system to sell it through -- I think the name you'd be 
looking for is Hangers Cleaners.

Leah
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In a message dated 8/20/2003 11:05:53 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
catpurson@juno.com writes:

> Bjarne,  How do you get that wonderful sculptured look to your
> satin stitch?  Mine always looks flat.   Your's is gorgeous!!!!
> 

Isn't it?!

I was taught to always outline, just inside the line of the design, with a 
running stitch before doing satin stitch [encasing the running stitch within the 
satin stitch] This helps give a neat edge and slightly raises the satin 
stitch. Then there's padded satin stitch, where one does layers of satin stitch 
over each other to raise it up.
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Dear Lalah,
I think it perhaps is, that i use long and short stitches mixed together and
then you should not pull your thread two tight.

Bjarne





Leif og Bjarne Drews
www.my-drewscostumes.dk

http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/
----- Original Message -----
From: <catpurson@juno.com>
To: <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Wednesday, August 20, 2003 4:57 PM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] embroidered stomacher


>         Bjarne,  How do you get that wonderful sculptured look to your
> satin stitch?  Mine always looks flat.   Your's is gorgeous!!!!
>
> Lalah
> Never give up, Never surrender
> _______________________________________________
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----- Original Message -----
From: <AlbertCat@aol.com>
To: <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Wednesday, August 20, 2003 5:11 PM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] embroidered stomacher


> In a message dated 8/20/2003 11:05:53 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
> catpurson@juno.com writes:
>
> > Bjarne,  How do you get that wonderful sculptured look to your
> > satin stitch?  Mine always looks flat.   Your's is gorgeous!!!!
> >
>
> Isn't it?!
>
> I was taught to always outline, just inside the line of the design, with a
> running stitch before doing satin stitch [encasing the running stitch
within the
> satin stitch] This helps give a neat edge and slightly raises the satin
> stitch. Then there's padded satin stitch, where one does layers of satin
stitch
> over each other to raise it up.

Hi.
As a matter of fact i have taught to do the same, but the book says you
should use split stitches in the line before you do the satin stitch.
But i have not used any outlining stitches before the satin stitches in this
piece.
I have only learned it from books. But i would really like to learn from a
skilled teacher. There is one here in Copenhagen wich teaches, but so far i
have not ben able to come because it is in the time when i work, she also
take solo lessons, but that is much two expensive for me!
It takes quite some time to get your stitches right i think, i have done
this for a year now, this type of stitches, and i can feel it gets better
and better.
This type of stitches was also used in renaissance times.


Bjarne  ______________________________________________
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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Wed Aug 20 11:42:06 2003
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Subject: [h-cost] Short Stories from LA shopping district and museums
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Sorry about the cross posts...
 
I just got back from 4 days in LA...man did we have fun!  My 2 cents on the
fabric district is to go on a weekday-it was much less hectic and parking is
cheaper.   Send for the map from the website before you go (didn't see one
of those yellow shirted guys that had a map on him).
http://www.fashiondistrict.org/  
 
 If nothing else, it has the restrooms on it.  Go a few blocks away from the
center (8th and Maple) to eat, there are plenty of places.  
 
Went to the Getty and saw the Illuminating the Renaissance-Fabulous,
Incredible!  Got a poster with a really clear view of one of those gathered
Flemish kirtles...will post it later.
 
Also visited the LACMA-some great textiles and a really spiffy Italian
sculpture which showed a lot of hair detail.  I'll post a few of those
also....
 
Oh and saw Pirates of the Caribbean...love that dirty Johnny and whoever
said that Orlando looked even better in his own hair color was right.
 
Sg
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From: "Saragrace T. Knauf" <saragrace@earthlink.net>
To: "'Historical Costume'" <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: RE: [h-cost] an enquiry to Kyoto? 
Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 08:41:51 -0700
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I would contact them...I bet they'd do it for a price....I have done this
before...you can expect to pay ~100 per photo..

Sg

-----Original Message-----
From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com] On
Behalf Of Bjarne og Leif Drews
Sent: Wednesday, August 20, 2003 8:38 AM
To: h-costume@indra.com
Subject: [h-cost] an enquiry to Kyoto? 


Hi the list.
I am sure there are some of you who have tryed this before, therefore i ask
you. In the Kyoto book, there is the most wonderfull embroidered white
skirt. I think it is made of linen. It is the one where the dummy is dressed
with a small jacket two and a very beautifull hat. The skirt has polycrome
flowers in a wreath all way round. I was thinking about contakting Kyoto
museum to ask if i could buy a photo where all the repeated pattern is
shown. Do you think the museum do such things? I am aware that it costs
quite a bit to buy a photo, but i really would love it.

Bjarne





Leif og Bjarne Drews
www.my-drewscostumes.dk

http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/


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Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 10:57:35 -0400
Subject: Re: [h-cost] embroidered stomacher
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        Bjarne,  How do you get that wonderful sculptured look to your
satin stitch?  Mine always looks flat.   Your's is gorgeous!!!!

Lalah
Never give up, Never surrender
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Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 08:26:14 -0700
Subject: Re: [h-cost] embroidered stomacher
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Bjarne, you make the rest of us feel very humble. It's absolutely lovely.

Arlys

> Bjarne og Leif Drews <drewscph@post12.tele.dk> wrote:
> Hi.
> I have now made half of the embroidered stomacher.


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Subject: Re: [h-cost] an enquiry to Kyoto? 
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In a message dated 8/20/2003 11:42:25 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
saragrace@earthlink.net writes:

> ~100 per photo..
> 

C'mon Bjarne, are you going to make a replica? You can make up what you 
cannot see unless you want an EXACT replica. 

Are speaking of the sheer skirt worn with the dark striped jacket trimmed 
with fringe? If so, in the big Kyoto book, there is a skit on the next page, with 
the red striped jacket with buttons, that is so similar, I thought it was the 
same skirt. Do you like one skirt more than the other? ;-P 

My point is that this type of design must have been popular if two so similar 
designs survived. Your slight variation would be just as accurate.
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Hi the list.
I am sure there are some of you who have tryed this before, therefore i ask
you.
In the Kyoto book, there is the most wonderfull embroidered white skirt. I
think it is made of linen. It is the one where the dummy is dressed with a
small jacket two and a very beautifull hat. The skirt has polycrome flowers
in a wreath all way round.
I was thinking about contakting Kyoto museum to ask if i could buy a photo
where all the repeated pattern is shown.
Do you think the museum do such things? I am aware that it costs quite a bit
to buy a photo, but i really would love it.

Bjarne





Leif og Bjarne Drews
www.my-drewscostumes.dk

http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/


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Hi all -- I'm getting my boyfriend ready to go to
the Gatsby picnic, and I wanted to take the cute
stripey shirt he found at Goodwill and put a much
spiffier white rounded collar on it.  Now, I have no problems
drafting the collar and getting it to work -- but I have no
idea how to achieve that stiff collar feel of the period.
I have a few vintage shirts, and even though they are
not starched at all, the collars and cuffs have this papery
feel.  Any idea how this was done?  I really don't want to
rip them apart.

Also - I was planning on making him some suspenders,
but I can't seem to find any "findings" for button on suspenders.
Anyone made these?

thanks for your help!  Menswear is hard!

:)

.heather.

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        I have been doing embroidery as long as you have lived, I expect,
and my satin stitch is good and satin smooth and the edges are even when
I take the time.  But I have never done anything that looked like it was
made of china and attached.  Your flower looks like it is really made of
some kind of sculpture.  My short and long stitches are just a nice way
to fill in large areas that I want shaded and never look like that.  I
suppose padding would get the same effect, but it would have to be done
very, very carefully to get the high and low effect.  Whatever you do, it
is fabulous!!!

Lalah
Never give up, Never surrender
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From: "Kim Baird" <kbaird@cableone.net>
To: "'Historical Costume'" <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: RE: [h-cost] 1920's - 1930's accessories 
Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 12:38:28 -0500
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I don't know the details, but I think those extremely stiff collars,
like old fashioned nurse's caps, were actaully dipped in starch (or
starch water).

Kim

-----Original Message-----
From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com]
On Behalf Of Heather Meadows
Sent: Wednesday, August 20, 2003 12:08 PM
To: h-costume@indra.com
Subject: [h-cost] 1920's - 1930's accessories 



Hi all -- I'm getting my boyfriend ready to go to
the Gatsby picnic, and I wanted to take the cute
stripey shirt he found at Goodwill and put a much
spiffier white rounded collar on it.  Now, I have no problems
drafting the collar and getting it to work -- but I have no
idea how to achieve that stiff collar feel of the period.
I have a few vintage shirts, and even though they are
not starched at all, the collars and cuffs have this papery
feel.  Any idea how this was done?  I really don't want to
rip them apart.

Also - I was planning on making him some suspenders,
but I can't seem to find any "findings" for button on suspenders.
Anyone made these?

thanks for your help!  Menswear is hard!

:)

.heather.

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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Wed Aug 20 13:46:17 2003
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] 1920's - 1930's accessories
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Starch starch and more starch. Get the powdered starch to dip it in or
another solution is to use Elmer's Glue thinned with water and painted onto
the fabric.


Bice
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Heather Meadows" <alice@wonderland.com>
To: <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Wednesday, August 20, 2003 10:08 AM
Subject: [h-cost] 1920's - 1930's accessories


>
>
> Hi all -- I'm getting my boyfriend ready to go to
> the Gatsby picnic, and I wanted to take the cute
> stripey shirt he found at Goodwill and put a much
> spiffier white rounded collar on it.  Now, I have no problems
> drafting the collar and getting it to work -- but I have no
> idea how to achieve that stiff collar feel of the period.
> I have a few vintage shirts, and even though they are
> not starched at all, the collars and cuffs have this papery
> feel.  Any idea how this was done?  I really don't want to
> rip them apart.
>
> Also - I was planning on making him some suspenders,
> but I can't seem to find any "findings" for button on suspenders.
> Anyone made these?
>
> thanks for your help!  Menswear is hard!
>
> :)
>
> .heather.
>
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
>
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From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" <drewscph@post12.tele.dk>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
References: <192.1eb258ca.2c74fb43@aol.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] an enquiry to Kyoto? 
Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 20:08:21 +0200
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Hi,
Yes it is the same skirt, and i know that you could make a pattern of it in
just imagine the rest.
But i want to make it as accurate as possible.
I guess all the pattern repeat could be in one picture, and with the
computer i could zoom it in to the right size.
It will be a challenge though, because it is very difficult to embroider
satin stitches on a plain linnen. It has not as many threads in it as
taffeta has.
Bjarne





Leif og Bjarne Drews
www.my-drewscostumes.dk

http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/
----- Original Message -----
From: <AlbertCat@aol.com>
To: <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Wednesday, August 20, 2003 6:26 PM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] an enquiry to Kyoto?


> In a message dated 8/20/2003 11:42:25 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
> saragrace@earthlink.net writes:
>
> > ~100 per photo..
> >
>
> C'mon Bjarne, are you going to make a replica? You can make up what you
> cannot see unless you want an EXACT replica.
>
> Are speaking of the sheer skirt worn with the dark striped jacket trimmed
> with fringe? If so, in the big Kyoto book, there is a skit on the next
page, with
> the red striped jacket with buttons, that is so similar, I thought it was
the
> same skirt. Do you like one skirt more than the other? ;-P
>
> My point is that this type of design must have been popular if two so
similar
> designs survived. Your slight variation would be just as accurate.
> _______________________________________________
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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Wed Aug 20 14:07:18 2003
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From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" <drewscph@post12.tele.dk>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
References: <20030820.125933.-492707.0.catpurson@juno.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] embroidered stomacher
Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 20:10:27 +0200
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Oh Lalah, thankyou very much for this. You have made me very happy.
I think it is because i love old embroideries, and i am in awe of it. Then i
do as best as i can to make it look like.

Bjarne





Leif og Bjarne Drews
www.my-drewscostumes.dk

http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/
----- Original Message -----
From: <catpurson@juno.com>
To: <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Wednesday, August 20, 2003 6:59 PM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] embroidered stomacher


>         I have been doing embroidery as long as you have lived, I expect,
> and my satin stitch is good and satin smooth and the edges are even when
> I take the time.  But I have never done anything that looked like it was
> made of china and attached.  Your flower looks like it is really made of
> some kind of sculpture.  My short and long stitches are just a nice way
> to fill in large areas that I want shaded and never look like that.  I
> suppose padding would get the same effect, but it would have to be done
> very, very carefully to get the high and low effect.  Whatever you do, it
> is fabulous!!!
>
> Lalah
> Never give up, Never surrender
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
>


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Subject: Re: [h-cost] an enquiry to Kyoto?
From: Agnes Gawne <gawne@mac.com>
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Bjarne - 
I have a friend who has made this skirt already.  Her name is Susan Pasco.
She is a wonderful costumer and embroiderer like yourself.  She showed the
costume along with a number of others at Costume College a few years ago.  I
believe that someone on this list from LA took a number of photos of it
there.  If any of you are on the list and you have those photos, would you
consider scanning for Bjarne?  I don't have the photos.

If nobody has the photos, I will try to contact Susan here in Seattle and
see if she has photos of it.

The skirt was damaged in a flood after the Costume College it was displayed
at or I would just ask her permission to photograph it for you.

Agnes


on 8/20/03 11:08, Bjarne og Leif Drews at drewscph@post12.tele.dk wrote:

> Hi,
> Yes it is the same skirt, and i know that you could make a pattern of it in
> just imagine the rest.
> But i want to make it as accurate as possible.
> I guess all the pattern repeat could be in one picture, and with the
> computer i could zoom it in to the right size.
> It will be a challenge though, because it is very difficult to embroider
> satin stitches on a plain linnen. It has not as many threads in it as
> taffeta has.
> Bjarne
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Leif og Bjarne Drews
> www.my-drewscostumes.dk
> 
> http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <AlbertCat@aol.com>
> To: <h-costume@indra.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, August 20, 2003 6:26 PM
> Subject: Re: [h-cost] an enquiry to Kyoto?
> 
> 
>> In a message dated 8/20/2003 11:42:25 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
>> saragrace@earthlink.net writes:
>> 
>>> ~100 per photo..
>>> 
>> 
>> C'mon Bjarne, are you going to make a replica? You can make up what you
>> cannot see unless you want an EXACT replica.
>> 
>> Are speaking of the sheer skirt worn with the dark striped jacket trimmed
>> with fringe? If so, in the big Kyoto book, there is a skit on the next
> page, with
>> the red striped jacket with buttons, that is so similar, I thought it was
> the
>> same skirt. Do you like one skirt more than the other? ;-P
>> 
>> My point is that this type of design must have been popular if two so
> similar
>> designs survived. Your slight variation would be just as accurate.
>> _______________________________________________
>> h-costume mailing list
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> 
> 
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> 

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Subject: Re: [h-cost] new vintage magazine - contact info
Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 11:43:14 -0700
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Gail, here's the two emails I kept with contact information.
_____________
(snip) Vintage Fashion is being published by Renaissance Magazine - the
editor and
editorial team are entirely different, as are advertising rates, but the
address and contact for publisher/advertising information is the same:
Renaissance is based in Connecticut at the following address:
1450 Barnum Avenue. Suite 207, Bridgeport, CT 06610 USA; telephone (800)
232-2224; fax (800) 775-2729.  We will have our web site link up ASAP, and
you'll be able to access it via www.renaissancemagazine.com, as well as
directly.  We'll advise you as to our own URL and so on as the info. gets
defined.  In the meantime, please note that Vintage Fashion is directed at
vintage, costume and textile professionals and semi-pros rather than
consumers and the general public; our target readership is designers,
makers,
dealers, collectors, curators, educators, shopkeepers, researchers, etc. and
among our circulation will be costume designers and wardrobe
masters/mistresses for film, theater, opera and ballet, museum staff,
auction
houses etc.
Best regards,
Julia
+++++++
Hi, Everybody:
There have been a couple of questions about how to get the magazine so I
thought it might be smart to post the info. here.  The first issue of
Vintage
Fashion has already gone out; for those of you who didn't get on to our
mailing
list, you can call our 800 number to subscribe or to get a single copy.
That
number is 800-232-2224.  By the way, we've got a classified ad section which
is
good both for people with services or product to offer AND people looking
for
specific services or product.  We're going out to thousands of historical
reproduction costume designers and makers as WELL as actual vintage
couture/historical costume collectors and dealers...so you never know,
someone out there
might have an incredible dress from the early 20th, 19th or even 18th
centuries
that they're interested in selling or trading/barter. Also, if you've got
news
you think should be reported in the next issue of the magazine, please feel
free to send us a press release or an email (fashionreporting@aol.com)
Thanks for your support, everyone!
Best, Julia

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Gail & Scott Finke" <gailscott@eos.net>
To: <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Tuesday, August 19, 2003 5:48 AM
Subject: [h-cost] new vintage magazine


>
>
> Would someone please send me the email address and name of the woman
> publishing the new vintange fashion magazine? Also the name of the
magazine?
> I lost it and I want to ask her something.
>
> Thanks!
>
> Gail Finke
>
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Wed Aug 20 14:52:16 2003
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From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" <drewscph@post12.tele.dk>
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Bjarne -
I have a friend who has made this skirt already.  Her name is Susan Pasco.
She is a wonderful costumer and embroiderer like yourself.  She showed the
costume along with a number of others at Costume College a few years ago.  I
believe that someone on this list from LA took a number of photos of it
there.  If any of you are on the list and you have those photos, would you
consider scanning for Bjarne?  I don't have the photos.

If nobody has the photos, I will try to contact Susan here in Seattle and
see if she has photos of it.

The skirt was damaged in a flood after the Costume College it was displayed
at or I would just ask her permission to photograph it for you.

Agnes

Dear Agnes,
That would be very kind of you. But are you shure that she would not be
worried that i stole the work from her?
What a pitty you tell me she had her skirt damaged. what a shame. It must
have taken her many many hours to make the skirt. Did she also make it in a
fine linen? Perhaps a hankerchief linen?
I made my 18th century shirt of hankerchief linen i baught in Belgium. It
was very very expensive though, but i think i could use that for the skirt.
AAAhhhhhhhhh, wish i had more time!!!
It is scary to think about, maybe i only have 30 years left to make things,
if i am lucky!!!
Wish i had lived in 18th century though, then i would have ben a
tailor..........
Bjarne





Leif og Bjarne Drews
www.my-drewscostumes.dk

http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/


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In a message dated 8/20/2003 1:04:24 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
catpurson@juno.com writes:

> but it would have to be done
> very, very carefully 

I thought ALL embroidery was to be done this way.
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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Wed Aug 20 15:54:25 2003
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Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 12:52:59 -0700
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Bjarne- an enquiry to Kyoto
From: Agnes Gawne <gawne@mac.com>
To: H-costume <h-costume@indra.com>
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Dear Bjarne - 

I don't think Susan would believe you to be stealing since she made a skirt
inspired by the one in Kyoto.  She, like you, only had the images in the old
Kyoto book (the newer one has the additional photos but she made this a
number of years ago).

Her mother was a florist and she loves plants and flowers herself so she
used her own imagination, and extensive experience with flowers, to create
what she thought the other flowers would have been on the skirt.

If you made an exact replica of the flowers you can see and made appropriate
choices for the other ones based on your favorite flowers, or seasonal
flowers, or some theme like that, you would be creating your own original
version inspired by Kyoto just like she did.

I wish we could have a web page of her work but she is very modest and
doesn't want to brag.   You would love to work with her, I think you have a
very similar style.  She loves the embellishments of costume more than the
construction of the garment and I get a feeling that's your preference as
well. 

Agnes

on 8/20/03 11:55, Bjarne og Leif Drews at drewscph@post12.tele.dk wrote:

> 
> Bjarne -
> I have a friend who has made this skirt already.  Her name is Susan Pasco.
> She is a wonderful costumer and embroiderer like yourself.  She showed the
> costume along with a number of others at Costume College a few years ago.  I
> believe that someone on this list from LA took a number of photos of it
> there.  If any of you are on the list and you have those photos, would you
> consider scanning for Bjarne?  I don't have the photos.
> 
> If nobody has the photos, I will try to contact Susan here in Seattle and
> see if she has photos of it.
> 
> The skirt was damaged in a flood after the Costume College it was displayed
> at or I would just ask her permission to photograph it for you.
> 
> Agnes
> 
> Dear Agnes,
> That would be very kind of you. But are you shure that she would not be
> worried that i stole the work from her?
> What a pitty you tell me she had her skirt damaged. what a shame. It must
> have taken her many many hours to make the skirt. Did she also make it in a
> fine linen? Perhaps a hankerchief linen?
> I made my 18th century shirt of hankerchief linen i baught in Belgium. It
> was very very expensive though, but i think i could use that for the skirt.
> AAAhhhhhhhhh, wish i had more time!!!
> It is scary to think about, maybe i only have 30 years left to make things,
> if i am lucky!!!
> Wish i had lived in 18th century though, then i would have ben a
> tailor..........
> Bjarne
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Leif og Bjarne Drews
> www.my-drewscostumes.dk
> 
> http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
> 

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Just had a minute to cruise by Bjarne's latest and my heart nearly stopped
beating!  Since taking up my needle at a very tender age to begin to
embroider, all forms of hand embellishments to fabric (beading, thread,
spangles, what have you) have always been the portion of costuming dearest
to my heart.  What a magnificent example to the rest of us you are, with
your tireless efforts, perfect stitches and fabulous designs!!  Wow.

I too, think the devil is in the details.  Any garment can be transformed by
a well-placed hand stitched detail.  Bjarne's (and often my own) favorite
garments are almost all hand stitched details and even though it is
terrifically time consuming, the results are what makes folks stop and go
"Wow."

So again,  wow.  I feel so lucky to be part of a list with so many bright,
talented and creative people on it.  You are all constant inspiration,
particularly when I'm stuck in the house with a particularly daunting
project looming at me and wondering if anyone will notice all the hard work
I'm putting into it.

angela
Angela F. Lazear
Cabbage Rose Costumes
http://www.cabbagerosecostumes.com
Theatrical Costume Design

"O, what a world of vile ill-favored faults
 looks handsome in three hundred pounds a year!..."
The Merry Wives of Windsor, III, iv - W. Shakespeare


>
> Bjarne -
> I have a friend who has made this skirt already.  Her name is Susan Pasco.
> She is a wonderful costumer and embroiderer like yourself.  She showed the
> costume along with a number of others at Costume College a few years ago.
I
> believe that someone on this list from LA took a number of photos of it
> there.  If any of you are on the list and you have those photos, would you
> consider scanning for Bjarne?  I don't have the photos.
>
> If nobody has the photos, I will try to contact Susan here in Seattle and
> see if she has photos of it.
>
> The skirt was damaged in a flood after the Costume College it was
displayed
> at or I would just ask her permission to photograph it for you.
>
> Agnes
>
> Dear Agnes,
> That would be very kind of you. But are you shure that she would not be
> worried that i stole the work from her?
> What a pitty you tell me she had her skirt damaged. what a shame. It must
> have taken her many many hours to make the skirt. Did she also make it in
a
> fine linen? Perhaps a hankerchief linen?
> I made my 18th century shirt of hankerchief linen i baught in Belgium. It
> was very very expensive though, but i think i could use that for the
skirt.
> AAAhhhhhhhhh, wish i had more time!!!
> It is scary to think about, maybe i only have 30 years left to make
things,
> if i am lucky!!!
> Wish i had lived in 18th century though, then i would have ben a
> tailor..........
> Bjarne
>
>
>
>
>
> Leif og Bjarne Drews
> www.my-drewscostumes.dk
>
> http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

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Starch is good but don't forget the value of a very, very, very hot
iron.  Margaret Baird


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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Wed Aug 20 17:10:45 2003
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From: "Kim Baird" <kbaird@cableone.net>
To: "'Historical Costume'" <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: RE: [h-cost] RE: h-costume Digest, 1920's
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Margaret--

I have trouble with starch scorching if my iron is too hot. Do you know
a trick I don't?

Kim Baird

-----Original Message-----
From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com]
On Behalf Of Margaret Baird 
Sent: Wednesday, August 20, 2003 4:08 PM
To: h-costume@indra.com
Subject: [h-cost] RE: h-costume Digest, 1920's

Starch is good but don't forget the value of a very, very, very hot
iron.  Margaret Baird


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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Wed Aug 20 17:15:28 2003
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Agnes an enquiry to Kyoto
Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 23:16:45 +0200
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Dear Angela.
You are so generous. Thankyou for those lovely lovely words, i am very very
happy.
This computer age, is very very nice for me. If i did not have you all to
talk to, i would be very very lonely. It is a very lonely work to make
costumes because not many apreciates the work you do.
So i am very happy to share my work with you all. It is lovely to be a
member here, because you all apreciate the work we do.
Many many thanks Angela................

Bjarne






Leif og Bjarne Drews
www.my-drewscostumes.dk

http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/
----- Original Message -----
From: "Cabbage Rose" <cabbagerose@sbcglobal.net>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Wednesday, August 20, 2003 10:16 PM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Agnes an enquiry to Kyoto


> Just had a minute to cruise by Bjarne's latest and my heart nearly stopped
> beating!  Since taking up my needle at a very tender age to begin to
> embroider, all forms of hand embellishments to fabric (beading, thread,
> spangles, what have you) have always been the portion of costuming dearest
> to my heart.  What a magnificent example to the rest of us you are, with
> your tireless efforts, perfect stitches and fabulous designs!!  Wow.
>
> I too, think the devil is in the details.  Any garment can be transformed
by
> a well-placed hand stitched detail.  Bjarne's (and often my own) favorite
> garments are almost all hand stitched details and even though it is
> terrifically time consuming, the results are what makes folks stop and go
> "Wow."
>
> So again,  wow.  I feel so lucky to be part of a list with so many bright,
> talented and creative people on it.  You are all constant inspiration,
> particularly when I'm stuck in the house with a particularly daunting
> project looming at me and wondering if anyone will notice all the hard
work
> I'm putting into it.
>
> angela
> Angela F. Lazear
> Cabbage Rose Costumes
> http://www.cabbagerosecostumes.com
> Theatrical Costume Design
>
> "O, what a world of vile ill-favored faults
>  looks handsome in three hundred pounds a year!..."
> The Merry Wives of Windsor, III, iv - W. Shakespeare
>
>
> >
> > Bjarne -
> > I have a friend who has made this skirt already.  Her name is Susan
Pasco.
> > She is a wonderful costumer and embroiderer like yourself.  She showed
the
> > costume along with a number of others at Costume College a few years
ago.
> I
> > believe that someone on this list from LA took a number of photos of it
> > there.  If any of you are on the list and you have those photos, would
you
> > consider scanning for Bjarne?  I don't have the photos.
> >
> > If nobody has the photos, I will try to contact Susan here in Seattle
and
> > see if she has photos of it.
> >
> > The skirt was damaged in a flood after the Costume College it was
> displayed
> > at or I would just ask her permission to photograph it for you.
> >
> > Agnes
> >
> > Dear Agnes,
> > That would be very kind of you. But are you shure that she would not be
> > worried that i stole the work from her?
> > What a pitty you tell me she had her skirt damaged. what a shame. It
must
> > have taken her many many hours to make the skirt. Did she also make it
in
> a
> > fine linen? Perhaps a hankerchief linen?
> > I made my 18th century shirt of hankerchief linen i baught in Belgium.
It
> > was very very expensive though, but i think i could use that for the
> skirt.
> > AAAhhhhhhhhh, wish i had more time!!!
> > It is scary to think about, maybe i only have 30 years left to make
> things,
> > if i am lucky!!!
> > Wish i had lived in 18th century though, then i would have ben a
> > tailor..........
> > Bjarne
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Leif og Bjarne Drews
> > www.my-drewscostumes.dk
> >
> > http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > h-costume mailing list
> > h-costume@mail.indra.com
> > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
>
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
>


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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Agnes an enquiry to Kyoto
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In a message dated 8/20/2003 5:13:24 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
drewscph@post12.tele.dk writes:

> It is a very lonely work to make
> costumes because not many apreciates the work you do.
> 

Hoooo boy! Is that right!

I remember the tech director and lighting designer of a Shakespeare Festival 
once said to us in a production meeting: "We have 3 weeks to get the sets and 
costumes finish... [ then with a "this is so tiring" look at me] And y'know 
the costumes don't have to fit perfectly." [He was tired of trying to schedule 
fittings] I was insulted to the max! I snapped back in front of everyone. 
"Yeah, and you don't have to do any fancy lighting or anything, just some general 
illumination will do. Oh, and the actors don't really need to learn their 
lines. Just so they say something sorta like what Shakespeare meant. And we really 
don't need a set at all. And..."

At this point he held up his hand and said "OK OK...we get your damn point!"

I ended the meeting with; "I'll give you a list of who I need fittings for 
this week tomorrow."

What a jerk!
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From: Robin Netherton <robin@shell.nightowl.net>
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Subject: [h-cost] Sharpie marker -- help!
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Oh, I am SO upset. I was wearing my absolute favorite all-purpose denim
dress -- the one that goes anywhere and always looks right and feels
comfortable -- and I dropped a black Sharpie laundry marker in my lap. I
now have a black spot about the size of a hole-punch over my left thigh.
It's not in a place where I could add a creative applique, but it's not
exactly hidden either :-P

I can think of a lot of cleaning solutions I could try, but I'd rather go
with experience. Has anyone ever successfully removed Sharpie marker from
denim (or another fabric)? Has anyone ever tried and failed (and thus can
save me the trouble of trying, if it's doomed)?

I really don't want to try remaking this dress. It was store-bought and
has all the double-topstitching you normally get with denim, and buttons
all the way down the side. And it fits perfectly -- something that NEVER
happens. Bleah.

--Robin

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Subject: Re: [h-cost] RE: h-costume Digest, 1920's
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Amen. And if you need one *G* I have an older one for sale that doesn't use
water. It's perfect for wool and for starching. Not good at all for
synthetics.

Bice
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Margaret Baird " <beads@traknet.com>
To: <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Wednesday, August 20, 2003 2:07 PM
Subject: [h-cost] RE: h-costume Digest, 1920's


> Starch is good but don't forget the value of a very, very, very hot
> iron.  Margaret Baird
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Wed Aug 20 17:42:36 2003
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From: Cynthia Virtue <cvirtue+dated+1076968024.212d8a@thibault.org>
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These two websites address general sharpie marker removal:

http://www.creativehomemaking.com/forums/Cleaning/posts/488.html

http://www.diynetwork.com/DIY/post/1,2021,8_164264,FF.html

-- 
Cynthia Virtue and/or
Cynthia du Pr Argent
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From: Catherine Olanich Raymond <cathy@thyrsus.com>
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] 1920's - 1930's accessories
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On Wednesday 20 August 2003 01:08 pm, Heather Meadows wrote:
> Hi all -- I'm getting my boyfriend ready to go to
> the Gatsby picnic, and I wanted to take the cute
> stripey shirt he found at Goodwill and put a much
> spiffier white rounded collar on it.  Now, I have no problems
> drafting the collar and getting it to work -- but I have no
> idea how to achieve that stiff collar feel of the period.
> I have a few vintage shirts, and even though they are
> not starched at all, the collars and cuffs have this papery
> feel.  Any idea how this was done?  I really don't want to
> rip them apart.

Somebody who specializes in the 20s should check me on this, but my 
recollection is that it was common for men's shirts in that period to have 
disposable collars that really *were* made out of heavy paper.  If I'm right, 
you might be able to find a company catering to reenactors that sells them.

In fact, now as I think of it, Amazon Drygoods sells them.

http://www.victoriana.com/amazon/

They don't have an on line catalog but the website tells you where to get a 
paper catalog from them.

-- 
Cathy Raymond <cathy@thyrsus.com>

“No man is rich enough to buy back his 
past.”  Oscar Wilde

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From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" <drewscph@post12.tele.dk>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
References: <54.178fccc5.2c75410b@aol.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Agnes an enquiry to Kyoto
Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 00:28:15 +0200
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Hi,
I can imagine how it is to work on a theater. This is one of the resons i
did not put my heart into seeking a job on theater. I feared that all my
enthusiasme would be blown away, and all the stress that follows.
So i am very pleased with my situation now. Working with other things to
earn my living and make the rest in my sparetime.

Bjarne





Leif og Bjarne Drews
www.my-drewscostumes.dk

http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/
----- Original Message -----
From: <AlbertCat@aol.com>
To: <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Wednesday, August 20, 2003 11:24 PM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Agnes an enquiry to Kyoto


> In a message dated 8/20/2003 5:13:24 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
> drewscph@post12.tele.dk writes:
>
> > It is a very lonely work to make
> > costumes because not many apreciates the work you do.
> >
>
> Hoooo boy! Is that right!
>
> I remember the tech director and lighting designer of a Shakespeare
Festival
> once said to us in a production meeting: "We have 3 weeks to get the sets
and
> costumes finish... [ then with a "this is so tiring" look at me] And
y'know
> the costumes don't have to fit perfectly." [He was tired of trying to
schedule
> fittings] I was insulted to the max! I snapped back in front of everyone.
> "Yeah, and you don't have to do any fancy lighting or anything, just some
general
> illumination will do. Oh, and the actors don't really need to learn their
> lines. Just so they say something sorta like what Shakespeare meant. And
we really
> don't need a set at all. And..."
>
> At this point he held up his hand and said "OK OK...we get your damn
point!"
>
> I ended the meeting with; "I'll give you a list of who I need fittings for
> this week tomorrow."
>
> What a jerk!
> _______________________________________________
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> h-costume@mail.indra.com
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>


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Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 22:58:12 +0100
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Jean Waddie <anne@montgomerie.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] isabel de valois dress
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Kimiko Small <kimiko@kimiko1.com> wrote
>At 05:39 PM 8/19/2003 -0500, you wrote:
>>Here are a couple of examples so you can get an idea of what I mean:
>>http://www.abcgallery.com/C/clouet/frclouet1.html
>
>Who is this person in the image? The image looks familiar.
>
This one is really interesting to me.  There's a fashion, goes back to 
the first precursors of hoods, in the flowerpot hennin with a big velvet 
lappet, that young girls wear the lappet, or both English and French 
hoods, just the front part with their hair loose and uncovered at the 
back.  This looks possibly similar.  But the second one is very clearly 
just jewellery.  I'd also love to know who it is, and approximately how 
old she is?

Jean

>>In this one you can see how the ends of the necklace cross over:
>>http://cgfa.sunsite.dk/c/p-clouet5.htm
>
>Wow, I had seen this one years ago, but I don't remember who it is. Is 
>it another of Isabella? Is it someone else? All that is noted on this 
>page is the name of the image, Clouet, which is the painter.
>
>And thanks for the images. I think I understand what you are trying to 
>say about it being more "jewelry" in the hair, than a bejeweled hat.
>
>Kimiko
>
>
>
>Kimiko Small
>Costumer, Fiber Artist, Web Designer, Wife and Mother
>kimiko@kimiko1.com; http://www.kimiko1.com
>"When there is fear, there is no creativity" ~ C. Lowell
>
>Graphic Intern at Costume Gallery
>http://www.costumegallery.com
>
>_______________________________________________
>h-costume mailing list
>h-costume@mail.indra.com
>http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

-- 
Jean Waddie
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To: h-costume@indra.com (Historical Costume)
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Sharpie marker -- help!
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>From my technical theatre/design major roommate, the following:

1. Rinse to get rid of as much as possible in cold water.
2. Rub with a pure bar soap (like ivory)
3. Wash using hot water and a non-chlorine bleach laundry detergent safe for the fabric.

Christine
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From: "Lisa Sinervo" <Lisa-list@threadneedlest.com>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
References: <200308192328.h7JNSncv003393@net.indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: Drycleaners  was:On dyeing 
Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 17:47:02 -0700
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That is absolutely the best advice anyone could ever give about a
drycleaners!  The place I worked at used the solution over and over and the
quality of the cleaning became worse and worse, then the solution would be
changed and like magic the quality shot up.

Thanks for posting that, I'd forgotten that myself.

Lisa Sinervo
www.ThrednedleStrete.com


----- Original Message -----
From: <sewinggoddess@att.net>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Tuesday, August 19, 2003 4:28 PM
Subject: [h-cost] Re: Drycleaners was:On dyeing


> My Uncle used to own several drycleaning businesses and gave me the best
tip I've ever heard on making sure my
> fancy gowns come out clean. Ask the drycleaners what day(s) they change
the solution.  Really big reputable drycleaners
> usually change the soultion once a week, sometimes twice a week. Ask to
have your dress/outfit clenaed on that day,
> even if it means waiting a week or so.   He would always save any wedding
dresses or special requests for the first runs
> through the "new" solution.    If they don't know when the soulution gets
changed...go someplace else! It probably hasn't
> been changed in a really long time.
>
> Crissy
>



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Subject: Re: [h-cost] blackwork questions Re: 1st batch V&A photos: 
Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 13:24:40 +1200
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> Ugh, dear, you don't wnat to wear silk next to your body, it gets slimy
with
> the body heat/sweat. Bleuch! ;-)

This is true, but would you wear all that black silk next to your skin and
wind up purple too;)?Is it lined?

So it was a typo then;)?

Never mind I have found two other instances of silk on silk blackwork so
that's fun:)

michaela
http://costumes.glittersweet.com


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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Thrednedle Strete Site pre-view
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Thanks for the compliment Bjarne, I just noticed it now.  I've had far too
many emails from computer users lists for awhile while I have been learning
web design.  It's been a real learning curve the web stuff, but I have
finally unsubscribed to one webdesign list so hopefully I can start sewing
again myself and concentrate more on why I bothered to learn webdesign in
the first place, for COSTUMING!!!!!!

Lisa Sinervo
www.ThrednedleStrete.com


ever so tired of sitting in front of the computer instead of the sewing
machine!!!!!



----- Original Message -----
From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" <drewscph@post12.tele.dk>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2003 11:54 AM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Thrednedle Strete Site pre-view


> Dear Lisa.
> Congratulations with your new site. It looks great!
> How wonderfull there is a place where you can buy poking sticks for ruffs
> :-)
> I think there has ben a wonderfull progress in authentic things to get the
> last 10 years, what will it all end up with?
>
> Bjarne
>
>
>
>
>
> Leif og Bjarne Drews
> www.my-drewscostumes.dk
>
> http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Lisa Sinervo" <Lisa-list@threadneedlest.com>
> To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
> Sent: Sunday, August 10, 2003 8:37 PM
> Subject: [h-cost] Thrednedle Strete Site pre-view
>
>
> Well, my site has been online and in pre-view mode for a few weeks now but
I
> haven't mentioned it as there are still things I'd like to add before I
> consider website release 1.0 complete.  For anyone who wants to have a
peek
> the address is www.ThrednedleStrete.com and when it's been tweaked a bit
> more and filled in I'll put another announcement out.  You will find now a
> downloadable copy of Stubbes - Anatomy of Abuses and quite a few
> proclamations relating to the English clothing industry plus some period
> buttons and tools.  I'm also working on getting some software set up to
> support "shareware" patterns, with downloads, photos and a "review this
> pattern" mechanism for anyone who might want to participate.  It's going
to
> be a fun rather than money making enterprise but set up like a
professional
> web store. Patterns will be via pdf printouts.  I'll be charging for the
> bandwidth to support this, but patterns can be shared with anyone you
like.
> The designer who contributed the pattern will have an option of requesting
> payment if the user finds it useful.  Don't know if any one ever receives
> money from shareware stuff, but I'll provide some more details later as I
> work out a few procedures.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Lisa Sinervo
> Thrednedle Strete Clothiers
> www.ThrednedleStrete.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
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>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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Those paper collars were for single men unfortunate enough to have no
servants to do their laundry. They were definitely second-best.
*******************

Somebody who specializes in the 20s should check me on this, but my 
recollection is that it was common for men's shirts in that period to
have 
disposable collars that really *were* made out of heavy paper.  If I'm
right, 
you might be able to find a company catering to reenactors that sells
them.

In fact, now as I think of it, Amazon Drygoods sells them.

http://www.victoriana.com/amazon/

They don't have an on line catalog but the website tells you where to
get a 
paper catalog from them.

-- 
Cathy Raymond <cathy@thyrsus.com>

"No man is rich enough to buy back his 
past."  Oscar Wilde

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Yeah, I wanted to avoid real paper collars, since those seemed really 
uncomfortable,
and I'd like to encourage my boyfriend to dress up again!


On Wednesday, August 20, 2003, at 07:01 PM, Kim Baird wrote:

> Those paper collars were for single men unfortunate enough to have no
> servants to do their laundry. They were definitely second-best.
> *******************
>
> Somebody who specializes in the 20s should check me on this, but my
> recollection is that it was common for men's shirts in that period to
> have
> disposable collars that really *were* made out of heavy paper.  If I'm
> right,
> you might be able to find a company catering to reenactors that sells
> them.
>
> In fact, now as I think of it, Amazon Drygoods sells them.
>
> http://www.victoriana.com/amazon/
>
> They don't have an on line catalog but the website tells you where to
> get a
> paper catalog from them.
>
> -- 
> Cathy Raymond <cathy@thyrsus.com>
>
> "No man is rich enough to buy back his
> past."  Oscar Wilde
>
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
>
> _______________________________________________
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>

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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Sharpie marker -- help!
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Hi, All. Robin, Sharpies are alcohol-based. I have had good luck in 
getting out sharpie with just rubbing alcohol (although the drinkable 
stuff will do, too ;) ). You need to get the area doused pretty well, 
and blot it away. Keep pouring the alcohol on and blot. Alcohol, being 
able to be combined with water, will be able to be washed out later, but 
don't be shy about using a whole bottle, if you need to. PS, do it soon, 
before the ink sets. The blotting will get the ink out, and help to 
prevent the ring that forms around the wet area. Once most of it is out, 
and the alcohol is still wet, then go to the water, then soap. Good 
Luck, Mike T.

Robin Netherton wrote:

>Oh, I am SO upset. I was wearing my absolute favorite all-purpose denim
>dress -- the one that goes anywhere and always looks right and feels
>comfortable -- and I dropped a black Sharpie laundry marker in my lap. I
>now have a black spot about the size of a hole-punch over my left thigh.
>It's not in a place where I could add a creative applique, but it's not
>exactly hidden either :-P
>
>I can think of a lot of cleaning solutions I could try, but I'd rather go
>with experience. Has anyone ever successfully removed Sharpie marker from
>denim (or another fabric)? Has anyone ever tried and failed (and thus can
>save me the trouble of trying, if it's doomed)?
>
>I really don't want to try remaking this dress. It was store-bought and
>has all the double-topstitching you normally get with denim, and buttons
>all the way down the side. And it fits perfectly -- something that NEVER
>happens. Bleah.
>
>--Robin
>
>_______________________________________________
>h-costume mailing list
>h-costume@mail.indra.com
>http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
>
>  
>


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Subject: [h-cost] ...they don't have to fit PERFECTLY!!
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***Rant Warning***

On Wednesday, August 20, 2003, Cat wrote:

>> It is a very lonely work to make
>> costumes because not many apreciates the work you do.
>
> "Yeah, and you don't have to do any fancy lighting or anything, just 
> some general
> illumination will do. Oh, and the actors don't really need to learn 
> their
> lines. Just so they say something sorta like what Shakespeare meant. 
> And we really
> don't need a set at all. And..."

AMEN!!!   As a costumer, an actor and now also a director, that guy's 
comments just make me furious.  If he's gonna take that attitude, then 
why bother?!   That's one reason I'm glad I sew - many times I've taken 
my costumes home with me and tweaked them till they fit correctly - 
otherwise I'd be more concerned about looking like a doofus up on 
stage, and therefore unable to give my best performance.  Do you think 
your director would've been okay with a sort-of performance?  I mean, 
gosh - with only a few weeks of rehearsal he certainly couldn't expect 
perfection...

Allison

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Subject: Re: [h-cost] an enquiry to Kyoto? 
From: Marsha J Hamilton <mjh@pearlandplume.com>
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
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I've requested study print photos from U.S. museums before and they weren't
overly expensive (about $20.)  The problem is they are black and white.  Let
us know what you find out if you contact Kyoto.

The stomacher embroidery is exquisite.

Marsha
-------

on 8/20/03 11:38 AM, Bjarne og Leif Drews at drewscph@post12.tele.dk wrote:

> Hi the list.
> I am sure there are some of you who have tryed this before, therefore i ask
> you.
> In the Kyoto book, there is the most wonderfull embroidered white skirt. I
> think it is made of linen. It is the one where the dummy is dressed with a
> small jacket two and a very beautifull hat. The skirt has polycrome flowers
> in a wreath all way round.
> I was thinking about contakting Kyoto museum to ask if i could buy a photo
> where all the repeated pattern is shown.
> Do you think the museum do such things? I am aware that it costs quite a bit
> to buy a photo, but i really would love it.
> 
> Bjarne

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Earlier this year (April) we bought a pair of suspenders at JCPenney, as DH 
needed them for a new outfit.  They were the standard elastic type, but the 
neat thing was they had both button and clip ends - interchangeable!!  The 
button ends were leather.  So, you could go look at your local JCP and 
cannibalize the bits for a pair of fabric/webbing suspenders.  They even 
came with the buttons (yea, plastic ones, but who's to know on the inside 
of the pants??)

HTH,

Sandy

>From: Heather Meadows <alice@wonderland.com>
>Subject: [h-cost] 1920's - 1930's accessories
>
>Also - I was planning on making him some suspenders,
>but I can't seem to find any "findings" for button on suspenders.
>Anyone made these?
>
>thanks for your help!  Menswear is hard!
>
>heather.

"Those Who Fail To Learn History
Are Doomed To Repeat It;
Those Who Fail To Learn History Correctly--
Why They Are Simply Doomed."

Achemdro'hm
"The Illusion of Historical Fact"
-- C.Y. 4971

Andromeda


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Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 00:35:01 -0500 (CDT)
From: Robin Netherton <robin@shell.nightowl.net>
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Sharpie marker -- success!
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Thanks to Mike and all the others who pointed me toward blotting the
marker stain with alcohol. It only took about 10 minutes of blotting to
reduce the mark enough that it doesn't show. It's till there (obvious on
the back) but the front of the fabric is a dark denim with a lot of
variegation, so what remains of the spot looks like part of the fabric
now.

I really appreciate having such a group of experts to call on!

OBCostume: I will no doubt get Sharpie on one of my historicals someday.

--Robin


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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Carolyn Kayta Barrows <kayta@frys.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: Suspenders
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>Earlier this year (April) we bought a pair of suspenders at JCPenney, as 
>DH needed them for a new outfit.  They were the standard elastic type, but 
>the neat thing was they had both button and clip ends - 
>interchangeable!!  The button ends were leather.  So, you could go look at 
>your local JCP and cannibalize the bits for a pair of fabric/webbing 
>suspenders.  They even came with the buttons (yea, plastic ones, but who's 
>to know on the inside of the pants??)
>
>HTH,
>
>Sandy
>
>>From: Heather Meadows <alice@wonderland.com>
>>Subject: [h-cost] 1920's - 1930's accessories
>>
>>Also - I was planning on making him some suspenders,
>>but I can't seem to find any "findings" for button on suspenders.
>>Anyone made these?
>>
>>thanks for your help!  Menswear is hard!

Gee - I just go to the thrift store and buy old suspenders.  Within a month 
my favorite one will have any color I am looking for, if I check every few 
days.

        CarolynKayta Barrows
dollmaker, fibre artist, textillian
          www.FunStuft.com

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Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 08:15:17 +0100 (BST)
From: =?iso-8859-1?q?N=20Kipar?= <nicolas_fouquet@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] blackwork questions Re: 1st batch V&A photos: 
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 --- michaela <thebruce@ihug.co.nz> wrote: > > Ugh, dear, you don't wnat to
wear silk next to your body, it gets slimy
> with
> > the body heat/sweat. Bleuch! ;-)
> 
> This is true, but would you wear all that black silk next to your skin and
> wind up purple too;)?Is it lined?
> 
> So it was a typo then;)?

Eh???? I am totally confused. I thought you said hooray for finding something
like a silk chemise, so I said no, even if, that would be horrible. I never
wear silk directly on my skin.
So, what was it you were talking about?
Apparently I misunderstood? And you misunderstood too?

N.

=====
Artemis - One of the Three Baroque Lurve Goddess    
http://www.kipar.org/temp/baroque-lurve-goddesses.jpg

Email: nicole@kipar.org
URL: http://www.kipar.org

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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Thu Aug 21 03:59:51 2003
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Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 08:58:15 +0100
From: "Kate M Bunting" <K.M.Bunting@derby.ac.uk>
To: <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: RE: [h-cost] 1920's - 1930's accessories
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And of course they were separate so they could be heavily starched, and
ironed without any buttons getting in the way, hence the need for
collar-studs to attach them to the neckband. I remember my father
wearing collars of this kind in the 1950s.

Kate Bunting
Library, University of Derby

>>> kbaird@cableone.net 08/20/03 06:38pm >>>
I don't know the details, but I think those extremely stiff collars,
like old fashioned nurse's caps, were actaully dipped in starch (or
starch water).

Kim

-----Original Message-----
From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com]

On Behalf Of Heather Meadows
Sent: Wednesday, August 20, 2003 12:08 PM
To: h-costume@indra.com 
Subject: [h-cost] 1920's - 1930's accessories 



Hi all -- I'm getting my boyfriend ready to go to
the Gatsby picnic, and I wanted to take the cute
stripey shirt he found at Goodwill and put a much
spiffier white rounded collar on it.  Now, I have no problems
drafting the collar and getting it to work -- but I have no
idea how to achieve that stiff collar feel of the period.
I have a few vintage shirts, and even though they are
not starched at all, the collars and cuffs have this papery
feel.  Any idea how this was done?  I really don't want to
rip them apart.

Also - I was planning on making him some suspenders,
but I can't seem to find any "findings" for button on suspenders.
Anyone made these?

thanks for your help!  Menswear is hard!

:)

.heather.

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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Links on Drea's sight... a forward
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Thanks for the reply, Drea. I'll forward this back to him.
Laurie
On Wednesday, August 20, 2003, at 01:08 PM, h-costume-request@indra.com 
wrote:

>
> Message: 4
> Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 08:41:00 -0400 (EDT)
> From: Drea Leed <drea@nospam>
> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Links on Drea's sight... a forward
> To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
> Message-ID: <20030820083745.G43227-100000@shell.siscom.net>
> Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
>
> Dan,
>
> I just checked my smock generator site, and it worked OK for me...what
> measurements did you put in?
>
> As for my email address, when you click on the link, a java script 
> opens
> up a mail window to email me.  I did this instead of straight mailto
> links, due to the 200+ a day plague of spam that having my email 
> address
> on my site caused.  I've tested this email functionality for netscape 
> and
> IE on both PC and mac, and it's been coming up ok for me.  Do you have
> javascript disabled on your browser?  What browser version and 
> platform do
> you use?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Drea
>

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Subject: Re: [h-cost] blackwork questions Re: 1st batch V&A photos: 
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> Eh???? I am totally confused. I thought you said hooray for finding
something
> like a silk chemise, so I said no, even if, that would be horrible. I
never
> wear silk directly on my skin.
> So, what was it you were talking about?
> Apparently I misunderstood? And you misunderstood too?

no... I thought you were being cryptic or making amore subtle "doh" for your
reply.

What I was specifically after is blackwork on silk. And the notes on Drea's
page suggested that the shift was silk.. and then it didn't. So I was't
after a silk shift, just blackwork on silk.

Then you mentioned silk next to the skin, and me thinking this was about the
shift specifically figured:
a) it wasn't silk as you've just uploaded piccies of it so must have seen it
in person, and this was a way of saying no way dude.

Which led to a different, but along the same lines thought of
b) that the thing would either be lined or a real serviceable shift worn
underneath this to prevent all that black silk from staining the skin. Which
would also mean it could have been made from silk and you still wouldn't
have a silk layer against your skin.

It's certainly not a practical garment in terms of being a shift at all with
all that embroidery. Imagine washing it...

michaela
http://costumes.glittersweet.com


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In a message dated 8/21/2003 1:10:04 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
robin@shell.nightowl.net writes:

> OBCostume: I will no doubt get Sharpie on one of my historicals someday.
> 
> 

Well, you don't have as much reason to hold a Sharpie in your lap in a 
historical, so maybe not.
Ann Wass
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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Thu Aug 21 09:42:35 2003
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From: "Lisa Sinervo" <Lisa-list@threadneedlest.com>
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Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 06:43:25 -0700
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Subject: [h-cost] Commercial Elizabethan Embroidery link offer
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I am about to work on a brief overview (an it will be brief at this point) of an embroiderer's shop for my site.  What I would like to do is explain a bit about 16th century artificers (embroiderers) then list some modern artificers who do similar work.  As my site is about the clothing industry, I'd rather the modern embroiders be people who embroider for pay also.  So if you are someone who takes commissions for embroidery work by hand, Elizabethan style and would like to have a link to your site (preferred) or email address if you have no website, please drop me an email at Lisa@ThrednedleStrete.com so I can include you and your work.

Thanks bunches,

Lisa Sinervo
Thrednedle Strete Clothiers
www.ThrednedleStrete.com
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] 1920's - 1930's accessories
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I think my father's WWII uniform (RCAF) had detachable collars also.

liz young

Kate M Bunting wrote:

>And of course they were separate so they could be heavily starched, and
>ironed without any buttons getting in the way, hence the need for
>collar-studs to attach them to the neckband. I remember my father
>wearing collars of this kind in the 1950s.
>  
>
>-----Original Message-----
>
>On Behalf Of Heather Meadows
>I wanted to take the cute
>stripey shirt he found at Goodwill and put a much
>spiffier white rounded collar on it.  
>  
>
>I have no
>idea how to achieve that stiff collar feel of the period.
>  
>



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Subject: [h-cost] How to dye with walnuts
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Greetings. Anyone here know how to dye with black walnuts? And would they
mind if I forwarded their info to my local SCA list?

Thanks,
Arlys


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From: Angela Kessler <ivyharpdotcom@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] new magazine
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
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Julia-
I never got my issue of your new magazine.  I delayed
beyond your suggestion of contacting you a couple of
weeks ago because I moved yesterday.  Could you please
send an issue to my new address:

Angela Kessler
96 Oxford Street
Somerville, MA  02143

Please add me to whatever list you may have for any
follow-up materials, as well.  I'm very much looking
forward to seeing the magazine.

Thank you,
Angela


--- JAzo478796@aol.com wrote:
> I got my issues of Vintage Fashion on the 23rd;
> someone just emailed me that 
> she had gotten her copy (and was really pleased!) so
> you should all be 
> receiving your's in the mail, too.
> I very carefully added all of your names and
> addresses to our mailing list - 
> whichever ones I had.  Please give it a a few more
> days.  I suppose there's 
> always a chance that someone slipped through the
> cracks and I don't want that to 
> happen - so if you haven't received your issue in
> the mail by the end of the 
> week, please let me know and I'll have one sent out
> to you straight from the 
> publishing office.
> Best, Julia
> _______________________________________________
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From: Robin Netherton <robin@shell.nightowl.net>
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Sharpie marker -- success!
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On Thu, 21 Aug 2003 AnnBWass@aol.com wrote:

> Well, you don't have as much reason to hold a Sharpie in your lap in a 
> historical, so maybe not.

Yeah, it'll more likely be a Dry-Erase or a transparency pen. (I wear my
historicals for lecturing.)

--Robin

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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Carolyn Kayta Barrows <kayta@frys.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] How to dye with walnuts
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>Greetings. Anyone here know how to dye with black walnuts? And would they
>mind if I forwarded their info to my local SCA list?

Start with whole un-husked ones right off the tree.  Dump them in a pot of 
water and boil them till the liquid part looks like coffee.  Take the husks 
out at this point, strain the liquid, and you have dye.  I've done this 
once, and you'll have to experiment with every other aspect of the dying.

I don't know if the shells do any good as a dyestuff, but the husks will 
dye anything porous, including your wooden stirring stick and your 
hands.  Also, walnut husks are very very acidic, so the dye will eventually 
destroy whatever you dye with them.  This may take years, but it will 
happen.  (I've seen manuscripts with letters missing, as in, letter-shaped 
holes in the pages, and I think it was from walnut husk ink.)


        CarolynKayta Barrows
dollmaker, fibre artist, textillian
          www.FunStuft.com

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I have not done any dying but have resources from my weaving which my have the information that you want.

Navajo Native Dyes- Their preparation and use
Nonabah G. Bryan
ISBN 0=910584-57-5
"wild walnut"

The Dye-Pot
Mary Frances Davidson
Route 1,
Gatlinburg, Tenn.  37737
published by author
Black and white walnut information
(try Robin And Russ in Mcminnville, Orgeon they have weaving books, and have many sources and are FRIENDLY folks to deal with)

Create Your Own Natural Dyes
Kathleen Schultz
ISBN 0-8069-7576-8 

A Weaver's Garden Growing Plants for Natural Dyes and fibers
Rita Buchanan
ISBN  0-486-40712-8 (pbk.)

A Dyers Garden
>From Plant to Pot Growing Dyes for Natural Fibers
Rita Buchanan
ISBN  1-883010-07-1 (pbk.)
has resources for obtaining products to make dye. 

Also check local library for additional books "with how to" information

Interweaver Press is also a good book source.
If they can't find these books, please let me know off list and I will see what I can do about getting the information to them.
Hope that this helps some
Ysandra
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From: "Jennifer Sena" <distantdesigns@hotmail.com>
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Subject: [h-cost] Sharpie marker -- question
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>
>Hi, All. Robin, Sharpies are alcohol-based. I have had good luck in getting 
>out sharpie with just rubbing alcohol (although the drinkable stuff will 
>do, too ;) ). You need to get the area doused pretty well, and blot it 
>away. Keep pouring the alcohol on and blot. Alcohol, being able to be 
>combined with water, will be able to be washed out later, but don't be shy 
>about using a whole bottle, if you need to. PS, do it soon, before the ink 
>sets. The blotting will get the ink out, and help to prevent the ring that 
>forms around the wet area. Once most of it is out, and the alcohol is still 
>wet, then go to the water, then soap. Good Luck, Mike T.
>

If alcohol will remove sharpie, will it also bleed it?  Years ago I used 
sharpie to do lines on a Tshirt I painted.  After a while the sharpie lines 
that were not covered by paint began to bleed.  That time it bothered me.

This year I'm doing "Bride of the Mummy" for halloween and used a sharpie to 
draw bandages wrapped around a white dress.  I used tea to make the whole 
thing look dirty then washed it with extra soap and my sharpie lines still 
wont bleed.  I wanted the same effect as the shirt to soften the edges of my 
"bandages"

it's historic...really.

TIA


Jennifer Sena
Distant Designs
http://home.teleport.com/~cedric/distdesi

I wont hurt you, I just want to dress you up!!

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Chris Laning wrote:

> -snip-
>
> If you or anyone has information about whether paper or parchment 
> underlay was used, however, I'd like to hear about it. I know such 
> support was used behind fabric that was going to be heavily beaded, 
> and it seems logical that such a backing would also stiffen and 
> stabilize any appliques that were cut from light or very smooth 
> fabric. I've used the technique with cotton broadcloth and it helps 
> quite a lot. In most cases the motif is simply basted onto the paper 
> with edges turned under, and when the applique stitching is done, the 
> backing fabric can be slit and the paper removed.

Chris,
  If I may I would love any info you have about using paper behind 
heavly beaded pieces.  I've been working on a project over and  over 
re-do for the past several years trying to get all of the beads to lay 
flat.  
   The piece is a heraldic device of my boyfriend's that I have placed 
on an old black velvet tabard (best way to describe it at this moment). 
 I've used layers of  heavy linen, but no such luck, so I need to do it 
over once again.  I'm trying to perfect it for a heraldic needlework 
competition that is held here in AnTir (SCA Kingdom).  I've already have 
entered it 2 or 3 times, yes, you can say I'm a bit of a perfectionist 
at times - I understand it goes with being ADHD.  :)
    Thank you for any info.  And thank you to everyone else about the 
applique documentation since that is one of my other interests.

Roscelin/Rose



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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Chris Laning <claning@igc.org>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] [2] Applique documentation?
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At 4:20 PM -0700 8/21/03, Roscelin wrote:
>Chris Laning wrote:
>
>>-snip-
>>
>>If you or anyone has information about whether paper or parchment 
>>underlay was used, however, I'd like to hear about it. I know such 
>>support was used behind fabric that was going to be heavily beaded, 
>>and it seems logical that such a backing would also stiffen and 
>>stabilize any appliques that were cut from light or very smooth 
>>fabric. I've used the technique with cotton broadcloth and it helps 
>>quite a lot. In most cases the motif is simply basted onto the 
>>paper with edges turned under, and when the applique stitching is 
>>done, the backing fabric can be slit and the paper removed.
>
>Chris,
>  If I may I would love any info you have about using paper behind 
>heavly beaded pieces.  I've been working on a project over and  over 
>re-do for the past several years trying to get all of the beads to 
>lay flat.    The piece is a heraldic device of my boyfriend's that I 
>have placed on an old black velvet tabard (best way to describe it 
>at this moment). I've used layers of  heavy linen, but no such luck, 
>so I need to do it over once again.  I'm trying to perfect it for a 
>heraldic needlework competition that is held here in AnTir (SCA 
>Kingdom).  I've already have entered it 2 or 3 times, yes, you can 
>say I'm a bit of a perfectionist at times - I understand it goes 
>with being ADHD.  :)
>    Thank you for any info.  And thank you to everyone else about the 
>applique documentation since that is one of my other interests.
>
>Roscelin/Rose

Ah-HA! I was going to refer you to my Laurel, Baroness Tangwystyl, 
since that's who I heard it from -- she used a piece of fairly stiff 
parchment to back a beaded hat medallion worked on silk, and found it 
worked very well. Then I realized that her source for this might have 
actually been something I showed her. <g>

In the Abegg Institute's huge and wonderful book _Textile 
Conservation and Research_, they discuss repairing an antependium 
(altar hanging) in gold embroidery from the 14th century. The crowned 
Madonna on the hanging holds an "apple" in her hand which is solidly 
beaded with coral beads. The photo of it from the back (like the rest 
of the embroidery it was removed for cleaning) clearly shows a 
backing that looks and behaves like parchment (it retains some empty 
needleholes, it's the right color & thickness, etc.)

Then I went looking and found that Schuette and Christensen's book (I 
have a French version) shows beadwork in their item #180, a fragment 
of another antependium, also 14th century and from Marienwerder. The 
description clearly says the figures are backed with parchment. The 
next item, which is color plate VIII, is also beadwork (the 
antependium from Halberstadt, 2nd half of the 13th century) and 
clearly says "Broderie de perles sur support de parchemin et de 
toile." ("The bead embroidery is supported by parchment and canvas.")
-- 
_________________________________________________________
O    (Lady) Christian de Holacombe
|     Chris Laning  <claning@igc.org>
+    Shire of Windy Meads  -  Davis, California
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From: Catherine Olanich Raymond <cathy@thyrsus.com>
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] black walnut dye book sources
Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 00:16:10 -0400
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On Thursday 21 August 2003 03:09 pm, ysandra sliverneedle wrote:
> I have not done any dying but have resources from my weaving which my have
> the information that you want.

[snip]

In addition to the books Ysandra listed, the following book has an assortment 
of recipes for dyeing natural fibers black, one of which is a black walnut 
recipe:


The Art and Craft of Natural Dyeing:  Traditional Recipes for Modern Use
J.N. Liles  (University of Tennessee Press/Knoxville 2d printing 1993)
ISBN:  0-87049-670-0 (paperbound)
ISBN:  0-87049-669-7 (clothbound)

In the introduction, Mr. Liles explains that he got interested in natural 
dyeing when he became involved ina  historical reenactment focused on the 
period from 1769-1800 in eastern Tennessee.  His book is the most educational 
book I've found yet, both about the nuts and bolts of dyeing and about the 
history of dyeing.

-- 
Cathy Raymond <cathy@thyrsus.com>

“No man is rich enough to buy back his 
past.”  Oscar Wilde

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Thanks, everyone, for your help. :-)

Arlys




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Must be the locale - they almost never turn up here.  We've only found one 
pair in many years of scrounging.

Pierre and Sandy

P.S.  Hi, Kayta!!

>From: Carolyn Kayta Barrows <kayta@frys.com>
>Gee - I just go to the thrift store and buy old suspenders.  Within a month
>my favorite one will have any color I am looking for, if I check every few
>days.
>
>         CarolynKayta Barrows
>dollmaker, fibre artist, textillian
>           www.FunStuft.com

"Those Who Fail To Learn History
Are Doomed To Repeat It;
Those Who Fail To Learn History Correctly--
Why They Are Simply Doomed."

Achemdro'hm
"The Illusion of Historical Fact"
-- C.Y. 4971

Andromeda


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Subject: [h-cost] Princess Marie of Portugal
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Does anyone know of an online picture of Princess
Marie of Portugal?  I found a reference to it while I
was researching Spanish cauls, but I don't know if it
still exists or where it is located.

thanks,
Catalina

=====


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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Princess Marie of Portugal
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Try these. I think I may have some jewelry books that have her in them. I
do not know why her name rings a bell but it does. I remember trying to
look her up last year for some reason. I think it had to do with some
gloves. (...thinking...)

I will not be at the Glaslyn event this weekend. A very close friend's
mother died at midnight and we are waiting for the furneral times. For a
man that is nearly 7 foot tall, it is true what they say, the bigger they
are .... he needs us very much. We need to be there.

Call me tonight Catalina if you want, I might be able to come over with my
books and we can go through them to look for her if you like or you can
come over. I do not think we will leave tonight.

Chiara

http://www.asn-ibk.ac.at/bildung/faecher/geschichte/maike/treffpunkt/buch2-109.jpg
http://www.yarranet.net.au/aceweb/eliteracies/spain/alcobaca1.JPG
http://www.britishmint.com/gold_coin_queen_portugal.jpg
http://www.info-regenten.de/regent/regent-d/pictures/portugal-maria1.jpg
http://www.info-regenten.de/regent/regent-d/pictures/portugal-maria2.jpg
http://www.reallisboa.pt/d_000/006/b_006.gif
http://www.reallisboa.pt/d_000/010/b_010.jpg


<quote who="Catalina Sanabria Rosado">
> Does anyone know of an online picture of Princess
> Marie of Portugal?  I found a reference to it while I
> was researching Spanish cauls, but I don't know if it
> still exists or where it is located.
>
> thanks,
> Catalina
>
> =====
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Fri Aug 22 11:57:38 2003
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Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 11:54:54 -0400
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From: Kirrily Robert <skud@infotrope.net>
Subject: [h-cost] new Elizabethan costume website
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I'm pleased to announce my new website, which is a searchable database
of Elizabethan costume images.  The URL is:
http://elizabethangeek.com/costumereview/

Features:

* 60 (and growing) images of Elizabethan people of all classes, genders
  and ages
* Breakdown by decade, gender and social class
* You can write reviews/analyses of each costume
* Fully searchable by image metadata or review text
* View recent uploads and reviews

I hope this will be useful to some of you - I think the lady who was
asking about 1588 costume the other day may find it of some use!

Yours,

Kirrily/Katherine


-- 
Lady Katherine Rowberd (mka Kirrily "Skud" Robert)
katherine@elizabethangeek.com  http://elizabethangeek.com/
Caldrithig, Skraeling Althing, Ealdormere
"The rose is red, the leaves are grene, God save Elizabeth our Queene"
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From: "Saragrace T. Knauf" <saragrace@earthlink.net>
To: "'Historical Costume'" <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: RE: [h-cost] new Elizabethan costume website
Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 09:06:36 -0700
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Cool search function!  Nicely laid out too!  Love the site name... :) 

-----Original Message-----
From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com] On
Behalf Of Kirrily Robert
Sent: Friday, August 22, 2003 8:55 AM
To: Historical Costume
Subject: [h-cost] new Elizabethan costume website

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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Fri Aug 22 14:12:45 2003
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	Fri, 22 Aug 2003 11:11:02 PDT
Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 11:11:02 -0700 (PDT)
From: Angela Kessler <ivyharpdotcom@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] new magazine-BELATED OOPS
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
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This message was meant to be sent to her privately,
but I was for once in too much of a rush to
double-check who the "reply" was going to, or to read
the H-Cost messages in my inbox to even notice that I
got it back myself!

Sorry, 
Angela


--- Angela Kessler <ivyharpdotcom@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Julia-
> I never got my issue of your new magazine.  I
> delayed
> beyond your suggestion of contacting you a couple of
> weeks ago because I moved yesterday.  Could you
> please
> send an issue to my new address:
> 
> Angela Kessler
> 96 Oxford Street
> Somerville, MA  02143
> 
> Please add me to whatever list you may have for any
> follow-up materials, as well.  I'm very much looking
> forward to seeing the magazine.
> 
> Thank you,
> Angela
> 
> 
> --- JAzo478796@aol.com wrote:
> > I got my issues of Vintage Fashion on the 23rd;
> > someone just emailed me that 
> > she had gotten her copy (and was really pleased!)
> so
> > you should all be 
> > receiving your's in the mail, too.
> > I very carefully added all of your names and
> > addresses to our mailing list - 
> > whichever ones I had.  Please give it a a few more
> > days.  I suppose there's 
> > always a chance that someone slipped through the
> > cracks and I don't want that to 
> > happen - so if you haven't received your issue in
> > the mail by the end of the 
> > week, please let me know and I'll have one sent
> out
> > to you straight from the 
> > publishing office.
> > Best, Julia
> > _______________________________________________
> > h-costume mailing list
> > h-costume@mail.indra.com
> > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
> 
> 
> __________________________________
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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Fri Aug 22 15:18:59 2003
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From: Kimiko Small <kimiko@kimiko1.com>
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Subject: [h-cost] slops and canions
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A different question, since my husband is also in court during the 1588 
time period. At the new costume review site there is an image of Sir 
Christopher Hatten
http://elizabethangeek.com/costumereview/image.mhtml?image_id=11

He is wearing "matching slops and canions". While I have seen this in 
portraits, how would one go about recreating this look in real working 
costume? Are they sewn together, or two separate items joined together 
somewhere? The slops seem rather short, barely hanging over the hips/crotch 
area.

And it is interesting to see the stockings go over the knee and the 
canions. Since only one knee is gartered, how does the other stocking stay 
up? Any ideas?

My husband is going to hate me, but if it is appropriate, he may as well be 
dressed properly. Thanks for any help on this.

Kimiko
Kimiko Small
Costumer, Fiber Artist, Web Designer, Wife and Mother
kimiko@kimiko1.com; http://www.kimiko1.com
"When there is fear, there is no creativity" ~ C. Lowell

Graphic Intern at Costume Gallery
http://www.costumegallery.com

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Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 11:54:51 -0700
From: Kimiko Small <kimiko@kimiko1.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] new Elizabethan costume website
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At 11:54 AM 8/22/2003 -0400, you wrote:
>I hope this will be useful to some of you - I think the lady who was
>asking about 1588 costume the other day may find it of some use!

I was that lady looking for 1588 fashions. This is a wonderful site, thank 
you. It helps to see the fashion broken down by the years.

Kimiko



Kimiko Small
Costumer, Fiber Artist, Web Designer, Wife and Mother
kimiko@kimiko1.com; http://www.kimiko1.com
"When there is fear, there is no creativity" ~ C. Lowell

Graphic Intern at Costume Gallery
http://www.costumegallery.com

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Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 20:51:53 +0100 (BST)
From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Catalina=20Sanabria=20Rosado?= <ladyforbeys@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] slops and canions
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
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If I remeber correctly from a class I attended on
men's garments, they are seperate garments that can be
attached by laces hidden under the facings. 



--- Kimiko Small <kimiko@kimiko1.com> wrote: > A
different question, since my husband is also in
> court during the 1588 
> time period. At the new costume review site there is
> an image of Sir 
> Christopher Hatten
>
http://elizabethangeek.com/costumereview/image.mhtml?image_id=11
> 
> He is wearing "matching slops and canions". While I
> have seen this in 
> portraits, how would one go about recreating this
> look in real working 
> costume? Are they sewn together, or two separate
> items joined together 
> somewhere? The slops seem rather short, barely
> hanging over the hips/crotch 
> area.
> 
> And it is interesting to see the stockings go over
> the knee and the 
> canions. Since only one knee is gartered, how does
> the other stocking stay 
> up? Any ideas?
> 
> My husband is going to hate me, but if it is
> appropriate, he may as well be 
> dressed properly. Thanks for any help on this.
> 
> Kimiko
> Kimiko Small
> Costumer, Fiber Artist, Web Designer, Wife and
> Mother
> kimiko@kimiko1.com; http://www.kimiko1.com
> "When there is fear, there is no creativity" ~ C.
> Lowell
> 
> Graphic Intern at Costume Gallery
> http://www.costumegallery.com
> 
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume 

=====


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Kimiko wrote:
>
> He is wearing "matching slops and canions". While I have seen this in
> portraits, how would one go about recreating this look in real working
> costume? Are they sewn together, or two separate items joined together
> somewhere? The slops seem rather short, barely hanging over the
hips/crotch
> area.
>
> And it is interesting to see the stockings go over the knee and the
> canions. Since only one knee is gartered, how does the other stocking stay
> up? Any ideas?
>


Janet Arnold's Patterns of Fashion describes the trunk hose/canion
construction for Sir Richard Cott's extant garment as follows:

"The full gathered trunk-hose were made of a layer of satin and blue silk
worked as one layer, slashed and pinked, then laid over a layer of fine
white silk which has almost disintegrated.  Beneath this is a layer of white
wool, open weave and springy in texture, cut to the same shope, which
provides the padding. All these layers are gathered in cartidge pleats at
top and legs to fit waistband and canions.  A smaller white fustian lining,
which reaches the op of the waistband, is stitched inside.  This helps hold
the fullness in position, standing out over the canions.  The fly front
fastens with buttons and worked buttonholes."

A pattern is also provided.  Of course there may be other examples of tie-on
Canions too, I don't know enough about the period to comment.

from H.R. Mores' glossary from Elizabethan Pageanty (webbed and now found
http://www.thrednedlestrete.com/Glossary.htm - illustrations to be added
this weekend )

CANIONS: In describing the various fashions in men's breeches, under "French
Hose" Stubbes says "..whereof some be paned, cut and drawne out with costly
ornaments, with Canions annexed reaching down beneath the knees." (Anatomy
of Abuses-Philip Stubbes) In studying contemporary portraits and following
Stubbes' description it will be noted in many instances that men are wearing
short trunks adjoining which are tubular continuations, or swathings of
contrasting material, silk or velvet, plain, brocaded or embroidered. The
stockings are tucked under, or rolled up over these canions. (His poignard)
".cut mee a payre of very imperiall cloth of golde hose, at least thus long
thwart the cannon." (Deckker, Patient Grissil, 1603) "Cannions of breeches,
because they are like cannons of artillery or cans or pots." (Minsheu, Guide
unto tongues, 1617)

Hope this helps.  Don't know about the hose but I'll keep my eye out for
info!

Lisa Sinervo
www.ThrednedleStrete.com


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Subject: Re: [h-cost] [2] Applique documentation?
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At 8:17 PM -0700 8/21/03, Chris Laning wrote:
>At 4:20 PM -0700 8/21/03, Roscelin wrote:



>>  If I may I would love any info you have about using paper behind 
>>heavly beaded pieces.  I've been working on a project over and 
>>over re-do for the past several years trying to get all of the 
>>beads to lay flat.    The piece is a heraldic device of my 
>>boyfriend's that I have placed on an old black velvet tabard (best 
>>way to describe it at this moment). I've used layers of  heavy 
>>linen, but no such luck, so I need to do it over once again.  I'm 
>>trying to perfect it for a heraldic needlework competition that is 
>>held here in AnTir (SCA Kingdom).  I've already have entered it 2 
>>or 3 times, yes, you can say I'm a bit of a perfectionist at times 
>>- I understand it goes with being ADHD.  :)
>>    Thank you for any info.  And thank you to everyone else about 
>>the applique documentation since that is one of my other interests.
>>
>>Roscelin/Rose
>
>Ah-HA! I was going to refer you to my Laurel, Baroness Tangwystyl, 
>since that's who I heard it from -- she used a piece of fairly stiff 
>parchment to back a beaded hat medallion worked on silk, and found 
>it worked very well. Then I realized that her source for this might 
>have actually been something I showed her. <g>
>
>In the Abegg Institute's huge and wonderful book _Textile 
>Conservation and Research_, they discuss repairing an antependium 
>(altar hanging) in gold embroidery from the 14th century. The 
>crowned Madonna on the hanging holds an "apple" in her hand which is 
>solidly beaded with coral beads. The photo of it from the back (like 
>the rest of the embroidery it was removed for cleaning) clearly 
>shows a backing that looks and behaves like parchment (it retains 
>some empty needleholes, it's the right color & thickness, etc.)
>
>Then I went looking and found that Schuette and Christensen's book 
>(I have a French version) shows beadwork in their item #180, a 
>fragment of another antependium, also 14th century and from 
>Marienwerder. The description clearly says the figures are backed 
>with parchment. The next item, which is color plate VIII, is also 
>beadwork (the antependium from Halberstadt, 2nd half of the 13th 
>century) and clearly says "Broderie de perles sur support de 
>parchemin et de toile." ("The bead embroidery is supported by 
>parchment and canvas.")

I've been meaning to jump in on this thread, but lately I've been 
coping with the shift from the carefree (hah!) life of a starving 
student, to the delightful drudgery of full-time employment, and I've 
been too exhausted to do more than read things.

There's an substantial body of beadwork done with a parchment backing 
-- most of it German (or other central European).  A very extensive 
collection can be found in:

Schuette, Marie.  1927 (vol. I) & 1930 (vol. II).  Gestickte 
Bildteppiche und Decken des Mittelalters.  Verlag von Karl W. 
Hiersemann in Leipzig.

The majority of the pieces in this collection are from Halberstadt 
Cathedral and include the material also found in Schuette & 
Christensen (it's the same Schuette).

In general, the design is solidly beaded (sometimes also including 
metal plaques), usually with the parchment laid on top of the main 
fabric, but sometimes with fabric also covering the parchment.  In 
the former case, where the beads have come off, you can see the 
design drawn onto the parchment.  When the beads are missing, you can 
also see the stitching holes or sometimes thread-ends, showing how 
the work was done.  In some other cases, the beads are sewn over and 
through a metal plaque (and presumably to the fabric underneath).  In 
general, the beads are clearly worked in strings, so that the pattern 
-- whether a solid color or multiple colors -- have a "look and feel" 
similar to that built up by the rows of split stitch in Opus 
Anglicanum (although on a larger scale, of course).  The parallel can 
particularly be seen in the use of two colors in the hair, and in the 
way the lines of work follow the draperies on clothing.

The couple of pieces I've done in this style have had fabric laid 
over the parchment (and the design drawn on the back of the parchment 
as a guide) -- mostly because I was uncertain about my ability not to 
have unsightly gaps showing.  The pieces were done as medallions 
(with an added fabric backing so that they could be basted or pinned 
onto a garment), which doesn't precisely follow any of the pieces 
I've seen.  The medieval pieces are mostly decorations on altar 
cloths, although there are also examples on a miter, on a piece I 
believe is a stole (probably decorating the ends), and on the top of 
a sudarium (another piece of ecclesiastical gear).  The survival of 
only ecclesiastical pieces is probably partly a matter of survival 
patterns.  It's hard to know, though, whether and how this type of 
work would have been used to decorate garments.  The surviving uses 
are well suited to the extreme stiffness of the technique, and only 
fairly small motifs would work well on a garment that needed to move 
and bend more.

As long as I'm commenting on the applique thread ...

I would tend to make a distinction between examples where the shaping 
of the applied piece is itself decorative, and pieces where  a strip 
or other piece of existing fabric (perhaps decorative or embroidered 
fabric) has been sewing onto another.  For example, the embroidered 
Egyptian roundel that was mentioned, which is sewn down onto another 
fabric, may well be a re-use of a valuable embroidery when the 
original ground fabric was worn out.  Similarly, there are all manner 
of examples of strips of luxury fabric being sewn as decoration onto 
a more ordinary cloth.

There seem to be some clear patterns of difference in technique 
between these and the examples of clearly "decorative" applique, 
where the applied fabric is cut into more intricate shapes, perhaps 
with stitched detailing as well.  For example, it's fairly common for 
decorative appliques to use the "couched cord on raw cut edges" 
technique, but the more "functional" appliques that I've seen are 
much more likely to have the raw edges folded under and sewn with a 
hem-stitch with no applied cord edging.

When I've done decorative appliques, I've never had any particular 
problems with the work slipping or distorting.  I've done both fairly 
small pieces (silk birds' heads on wool, a couple inches in diameter 
each) and fairly large ones (a few heraldic cloaks), and a 
combination of extensive pinning and patience (which latter is pretty 
hard for me) seem to work.  I've come to prefer the "couched cord on 
a raw cut edge" technique -- partly through sheer laziness --  and 
even on ravelly fabrics (like silk) it seems to work as long as the 
item isn't going to get a lot of stress or abrasion.

Heather
-- 
*****
Heather Rose Jones
hrjones@socrates.berkeley.edu
*****
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From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" <drewscph@post12.tele.dk>
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Leif og Bjarne Drews
www.my-drewscostumes.dk

http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/


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 You are fine here Bjarne - it's just a nice Saturday I think. 

Agnes

On Saturday, August 23, 2003, at 10:23AM, Bjarne og Leif Drews <drewscph@post12.tele.dk> wrote:

>
>
>
>
>
>
>Leif og Bjarne Drews
>www.my-drewscostumes.dk
>
>http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/
>
>
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I suppose most of you people have already run across these quotes in the Catherine Wheele question, but since I'm not sure I'm posting this quote I just came across found quoted in Elizabethan Pageantry.



" In many places the ordinary citizens Wives have their gownes made with long traines, which are pinned up in the house, and borne up by maide servants when they goe abroade, which fashion of old onely great Noblemen used with us. And in many cities as well the married as unmarried Women weare long fardingales hanging about their feete like hoopes, which our Women used of olde, but have now changed to short fardingales about their hippes." 



Moryson-ltinerary, 1605-17. 


obviously this is in support of the no hoops at the feet theory.


rgds,

Lisa Sinervo
www.ThrednedleStrete.com
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From: "Lisa Sinervo" <Lisa-list@threadneedlest.com>
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Subject: [h-cost] Re: "short farthingales about their hippes"
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opps, should have been "hippes"
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Lisa Sinervo 
  To: Historical Costume 
  Sent: Saturday, August 23, 2003 11:42 AM
  Subject: "short farthingales about their hoppes"


  I suppose most of you people have already run across these quotes in the Catherine Wheele question, but since I'm not sure I'm posting this quote I just came across found quoted in Elizabethan Pageantry.



  " In many places the ordinary citizens Wives have their gownes made with long traines, which are pinned up in the house, and borne up by maide servants when they goe abroade, which fashion of old onely great Noblemen used with us. And in many cities as well the married as unmarried Women weare long fardingales hanging about their feete like hoopes, which our Women used of olde, but have now changed to short fardingales about their hippes." 



  Moryson-ltinerary, 1605-17. 


  obviously this is in support of the no hoops at the feet theory.


  rgds,

  Lisa Sinervo
  www.ThrednedleStrete.com
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Hi,

I finally had the chance to work on one of my own projects.
It is not finished yet, as alway's...
Made a small bumbroll and I really like the effect.
The dress looks wrinkly because I still have to make the lacingholes and 
it is just pinned on my corset.
http://www.deredere.dds.nl/16thcent_dress/16thcent_dress.html

Greetings,
        Deredere


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that's coming along very nicely

thanks for posting!!

Lisa


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Deredere Galbraith" <triade@kabelfoon.nl>
To: "H-Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Saturday, August 23, 2003 11:55 AM
Subject: [h-cost] 16th century dress


> Hi,
> 
> I finally had the chance to work on one of my own projects.
> It is not finished yet, as alway's...
> Made a small bumbroll and I really like the effect.
> The dress looks wrinkly because I still have to make the lacingholes and 
> it is just pinned on my corset.
> http://www.deredere.dds.nl/16thcent_dress/16thcent_dress.html
> 
> Greetings,
>         Deredere
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume


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> Moryson-ltinerary, 1605-17. 

Keen!  Who was this person and which culture was still wearing the old, 
long style of farthinggale?

-- 
Cynthia Virtue and/or
Cynthia du Pr Argent

Medieval baby-in-a-walker toddler T-shirt: http://store.virtue.to
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From: KATHRYN WOLTERS <albrakat7@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] 16th century dress
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Wow--you are making quite a bit of progress! Looking very very nice---thank you for sharing. This is one of the outfits I've wanted to duplicate for ages!
cheers and best--
Albra

Deredere Galbraith <triade@kabelfoon.nl> wrote:
Hi,

I finally had the chance to work on one of my own projects.
It is not finished yet, as alway's...
Made a small bumbroll and I really like the effect.
The dress looks wrinkly because I still have to make the lacingholes and 
it is just pinned on my corset.
http://www.deredere.dds.nl/16thcent_dress/16thcent_dress.html

Greetings,
Deredere


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From: Carol Mitchell <listcost21@yahoo.com>
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It appears that this group, along with its' files, has
disappeared. Does anyone know what group replaced it?
Thanks
Carol

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From: "Lisa Sinervo" <Lisa-list@threadneedlest.com>
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References: <000a01c369a6$54f780e0$c00877d8@pavilion>
	<3F47CF8B.7060208@thibault.org>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] "short farthingales about their hoppes"
Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2003 14:33:07 -0700
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sorry, I really should have included that.  The reference is to the Germans
and I believe Moryson is comparing them to the English.  This was quoted in
Elizabethan Pagentry, which was published in 1934 without a copyright
notice.  I'm webbing the rest of the commentary right now.

Lisa Sinervo
www.Thrednedlestrete.com

----- Original Message -----
From: "Cynthia Virtue" <cvirtue+dated+1077223092.840bea@thibault.org>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Saturday, August 23, 2003 1:33 PM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] "short farthingales about their hoppes"


>
> > Moryson-ltinerary, 1605-17.
>
> Keen!  Who was this person and which culture was still wearing the old,
> long style of farthinggale?
>
> --
> Cynthia Virtue and/or
> Cynthia du Pr Argent
>
> Medieval baby-in-a-walker toddler T-shirt: http://store.virtue.to
> _______________________________________________
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From: Robin Netherton <robin@shell.nightowl.net>
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] ageofthecotehardie
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On Sat, 23 Aug 2003, Carol Mitchell wrote:

> It appears that this group, along with its' files, has
> disappeared. Does anyone know what group replaced it?

They all moved over to aotc at yahoo. The original group got on porn
spammers' radar, and the original moderators were AWOL so no one could
reset the moderation specs. I thought they were leaving the old group up
for archives access, though. I think there are a couple of members around
here, so maybe one of them can fill you in.

--Robin

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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Sat Aug 23 17:58:16 2003
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	Sat, 23 Aug 2003 14:57:08 PDT
Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2003 14:57:08 -0700 (PDT)
From: KATHRYN WOLTERS <albrakat7@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] ageofthecotehardie
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
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I also wondered about that--since as soon as I joined I started getting all these REALLY strange messages--so I stopped visiting :( Would also love to know where they went to--
Albra

Robin Netherton <robin@shell.nightowl.net> wrote:

On Sat, 23 Aug 2003, Carol Mitchell wrote:

> It appears that this group, along with its' files, has
> disappeared. Does anyone know what group replaced it?

They all moved over to aotc at yahoo. The original group got on porn
spammers' radar, and the original moderators were AWOL so no one could
reset the moderation specs. I thought they were leaving the old group up
for archives access, though. I think there are a couple of members around
here, so maybe one of them can fill you in.

--Robin

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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Sat Aug 23 18:34:19 2003
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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Lavolta Press <fran@lavoltapress.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] "short farthingales about their hoppes"
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If it's a British book, quite often older ones don't include a copyright 
date.  Apparently under British law, such noninclusion did not invalidate 
their copyright in any way. The lack of a date is very annoying for dating 
old British books.

Fran

At 02:33 PM 8/23/2003 -0700, you wrote:
>sorry, I really should have included that.  The reference is to the Germans
>and I believe Moryson is comparing them to the English.  This was quoted in
>Elizabethan Pagentry, which was published in 1934 without a copyright
>notice.

Lavolta Press Books on Historic Costuming
http://www.lavoltapress.com
Historic and Vintage Dance
http://www.lavoltapress.com/dance 

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From: "Lisa Sinervo" <Lisa-list@threadneedlest.com>
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Published in New York!  Yippee!!!!!!!!!!!


----- Original Message -----
From: "Lavolta Press" <fran@lavoltapress.com>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Saturday, August 23, 2003 3:35 PM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] "short farthingales about their hoppes"


> If it's a British book, quite often older ones don't include a copyright
> date.  Apparently under British law, such noninclusion did not invalidate
> their copyright in any way. The lack of a date is very annoying for dating
> old British books.
>
> Fran
>
> At 02:33 PM 8/23/2003 -0700, you wrote:
> >sorry, I really should have included that.  The reference is to the
Germans
> >and I believe Moryson is comparing them to the English.  This was quoted
in
> >Elizabethan Pagentry, which was published in 1934 without a copyright
> >notice.
>
> Lavolta Press Books on Historic Costuming
> http://www.lavoltapress.com
> Historic and Vintage Dance
> http://www.lavoltapress.com/dance
>
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume


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And they didn't omit the copyright notice because it was also published in 
Great Britain (in which case it was legal in the US to omit a US notice)? 
Strange.

Fran


Lavolta Press Books on Historic Costuming
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Historic and Vintage Dance
http://www.lavoltapress.com/dance 

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From: "Lisa Sinervo" <Lisa-list@threadneedlest.com>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] "short farthingales about their hoppes"
Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2003 17:43:14 -0700
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This book was published by Studio and there is a notice that even says
Studio was registered with the US Pat. Office.  The publisher is London: The
Studio LTD / New York: The Studio Publications Inc. 1934.  No copyright
notice.  It may be simultaneously published in London but not FIRST
published overseas.  Also, no extension for copyright was lodged in the 27th
year (or whatever year I can't remember but I knew at the time I checked)
with the US copyright office so in my reasonably well researched opinion,
this book is in the public domain.

It's basically a book filled with quotes from playwrights and period
commentators anyway.  Morse's considerable contribution was collecting and
arranging the info, he didn't actually write much at all so if there was a
problem, it would really be a matter of not using his material in the order
he did.  But why not give the man full credit!  It's a great resource and
has a terrific bibliography too.  Hopefully I'll finish this by tomorrow if
anyone cares to have a look who may not have come across this book before,
the glossary is already online.

cheers!

Lisa


----- Original Message -----
From: "Lavolta Press" <fran@lavoltapress.com>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Saturday, August 23, 2003 4:39 PM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] "short farthingales about their hoppes"


> And they didn't omit the copyright notice because it was also published in
> Great Britain (in which case it was legal in the US to omit a US notice)?
> Strange.
>
> Fran
>
>
> Lavolta Press Books on Historic Costuming
> http://www.lavoltapress.com
> Historic and Vintage Dance
> http://www.lavoltapress.com/dance
>
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume


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To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
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> It's basically a book filled with quotes from playwrights and period
> commentators anyway.  Morse's considerable contribution was collecting and
> arranging the info, he didn't actually write much at all so if there was a
> problem, it would really be a matter of not using his material in the
order
> he did.


This might mean, putting the glossary in random, instead of alphabetical
order!!!!

Lisa


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To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
References: <20030823212351.92960.qmail@web13303.mail.yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] ageofthecotehardie
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> It appears that this group, along with its' files, has
> disappeared. Does anyone know what group replaced it?
> Thanks
> Carol

It's still there:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ageofthecotehardie/?yguid=85892

But the moderator disappeared or something so no one can stop the porn
spammers... so they moved the discussion to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/aotc?yguid=85892

They still have the files and photos at the old group and you can still
search the archives. And this way they have twice the file storage.

michaela
http://costumes.glittersweet.com


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>
>with the US copyright office so in my reasonably well researched opinion,
>this book is in the public domain.

According to my lawyer, if a book is published in more than one country, 
and one copyright has expired but others have not, the date for legal 
publication is when the longest of the copyright terms expires, as most 
countries have agreed not to violate each others' copyrights.


>It's basically a book filled with quotes from playwrights and period
>commentators anyway.  Morse's considerable contribution was collecting and
>arranging the info

Selection and arrangement/organiztion of materials in an anthology is fully 
copyrightable.


>  he didn't actually write much at all so if there was a
>problem, it would really be a matter of not using his material in the order
>he did.

Also of not using a significant/recognizable part of his selection.

I saw a bunch of used copies cheap on AddAll, maybe I'll get one.

Fran


Lavolta Press Books on Historic Costuming
http://www.lavoltapress.com
Historic and Vintage Dance
http://www.lavoltapress.com/dance 

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To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
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> >with the US copyright office so in my reasonably well researched opinion,
> >this book is in the public domain.
>
> According to my lawyer, if a book is published in more than one country,
> and one copyright has expired but others have not, the date for legal
> publication is when the longest of the copyright terms expires, as most
> countries have agreed not to violate each others' copyrights.
>
I've done quite a bit of research into this particular book before I started
webbing it and I feel quite confident in it's public domain status.

It's a cheap second hand book and worth every penny if you happen upon a
copy.

Lisa Sinervo
www.ThrednedleStrete.com




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\
>It's a cheap second hand book and worth every penny if you happen upon a
>copy.
>
>Lisa Sinervo
>www.ThrednedleStrete.com
>


AddAll lists over 30 used copies right now, the lower end ones run about 
$14 give or take a little.

Fran


Lavolta Press Books on Historic Costuming
http://www.lavoltapress.com
Historic and Vintage Dance
http://www.lavoltapress.com/dance 

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From: "Melanie Wilson" <MelanieWilson@dragonflight.co.uk>
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Subject: [h-cost] Points
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Can anyone tell me a reliable mail order source for points prefer UK but US
OK if they are QUICK !!

Thanks

Mel

This e-mail, and any attachment, is confidential. If you have received
it in error, please delete it from your system, do not use or disclose
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Company, unless specifically stated.



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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Sun Aug 24 08:14:47 2003
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From: "Beteena Paradise" <bkessinger@ureach.com>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
References: <003401c36a30$14a46b40$e9a34ed5@pavilion>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Points
Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2003 08:13:03 -0400
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I got mine from Jewelry Supply. Looks like they are out of some of the
points they normally carry, but I have found them inexpensive and reliable.

http://www.jewelrysupply.net/EJS/boloslidetips.htm

----- Original Message -----
From: "Melanie Wilson" <MelanieWilson@dragonflight.co.uk>
To: "LIST H costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Sunday, August 24, 2003 7:08 AM
Subject: [h-cost] Points


> Can anyone tell me a reliable mail order source for points prefer UK but
US
> OK if they are QUICK !!
>
> Thanks
>
> Mel
>
> This e-mail, and any attachment, is confidential. If you have received
> it in error, please delete it from your system, do not use or disclose
> the information in any way, and notify me immediately. The contents of
> this message may contain personal views which are not the views of the
> Company, unless specifically stated.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
>
>

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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Sun Aug 24 09:14:38 2003
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From: "Lisa Sinervo" <Lisa-list@threadneedlest.com>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
References: <000a01c369a6$54f780e0$c00877d8@pavilion>
	<3F47CF8B.7060208@thibault.org>
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Elizabethan Pageantry
Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2003 06:14:16 -0700
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On the other hand, I'm nearly finished webbing the whole thing.  The
glossary is already up at http://www.thrednedlestrete.com/Glossary.htm and
commentary and images are going up today.  A reprint in a full color version
would be very nice though if your thinking about the book for professional
reasons!

Lisa Sinervo
www.ThrednedleStrete.com



----- Original Message -----
From: "Lavolta Press" <fran@lavoltapress.com>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Saturday, August 23, 2003 9:29 PM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Elizabethan Pageantry


> \
> >It's a cheap second hand book and worth every penny if you happen upon a
> >copy.
> >
> >Lisa Sinervo
> >www.ThrednedleStrete.com
> >
>
>
> AddAll lists over 30 used copies right now, the lower end ones run about
> $14 give or take a little.
>
> Fran
>
>
> Lavolta Press Books on Historic Costuming
> http://www.lavoltapress.com
> Historic and Vintage Dance
> http://www.lavoltapress.com/dance
>
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume


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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Sun Aug 24 12:41:46 2003
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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Lavolta Press <fran@lavoltapress.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Elizabethan Pageantry
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I've got way more public domain sources than I could ever reprint. My 
chance of doing that is about equal to that of using my fabric stash in my 
lifetime.

We (there are actually other people in the business, part time) also don't 
do reprints. The books we publish are new books, either written "from 
scratch" or with a great deal of work in selection, arrangement, and 
addition of new material. Also editing of text and graphics--one of our 
goals is high-quality high-resolution graphics production.  The schedule 
depends on the book. But the last one, _Reconstruction Era Fashions_ , took 
over two years of full-time work. The current one, which I refer to as _The 
Book That Ate San Francisco_, has taken two years so far and it's not ready 
for the printer yet. (We are working on two others in a back-burner way but 
frankly I don't even want to contemplate them right now. I just spend a 
frantic week looking for a replacement for the graphics proof printer.  And 
ordered one, but it's not here yet.)   It's hard work (and requires a lot 
of fancy hardware and software), but very interesting and rewarding. Also, 
we can be sure when we publish a book that we are creating something new, 
and that no prospective buyers already own it.

Just wanted to clear that up . . . because people have an image of what 
"reprints" are and we have never in fact published one.

Fran

A reprint in a full color version
>would be very nice though if your thinking about the book for professional
>reasons!
>
>Lisa Sinervo
>www.ThrednedleStrete.com
>

Lavolta Press Books on Historic Costuming
http://www.lavoltapress.com
Historic and Vintage Dance
http://www.lavoltapress.com/dance 

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From: "Lisa Sinervo" <Lisa-list@threadneedlest.com>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Elizabethan Pageantry
Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2003 11:00:33 -0700
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Fran wrote:
>
> Just wanted to clear that up . . . because people have an image of what
> "reprints" are and we have never in fact published one.
>
Thanks for that, I assumed you did basic reprints, but of professional
quality.  I can understand why it might take you that long to produce a
book.  Even the simple webbing jobs I've undertaken were time consuming  and
there has been no attempt for them to be of "professional quality" due to my
own time constraints and priorities.

Anyway, must get back to work!

Lisa


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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Lavolta Press <fran@lavoltapress.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Elizabethan Pageantry
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At 11:00 AM 8/24/2003 -0700, you wrote:
>Fran wrote:
> >
> > Just wanted to clear that up . . . because people have an image of what
> > "reprints" are and we have never in fact published one.
> >
>Thanks for that, I assumed you did basic reprints, but of professional
>quality.  I can understand why it might take you that long to produce a
>book.

It would be a lot easier, cheaper, and probably more profitable for us to 
do straightforward reprints. They are a perfectly valid publication path, 
and there is no shortage of public domain material. It's just that we don't 
find reprints interesting to publish--though many people do.

Fran


Lavolta Press Books on Historic Costuming
http://www.lavoltapress.com
Historic and Vintage Dance
http://www.lavoltapress.com/dance 

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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Sun Aug 24 15:39:34 2003
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Subject: [h-cost] Out of Print Folkwear Patterns
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I'm searching for a couple out-of-print Folkwear patterns
("adapted from the collection of the Metropolitan Museum of Art")
506 (1920's Equestrienne)
508 (1915 Traveling Suit)

Other than eBay, does anyone have any recommendations of places to look?

Thanks,
Anahita
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From: "Lisa Sinervo" <Lisa-list@threadneedlest.com>
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Subject: [h-cost] butterick patterns 60 cents rumour
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another list I'm on posted that rumor has it that butterick patterns are 60 cents each today at joAnns

Lisa Sinervo
www.ThrednedleStrete.com
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Status: RO

Well, finding those particular patterns at a reasonable price should prove
to be somewhat of a challenge..Everyone seems to be looking for those
elusive patterns that were based on pieces from the Metropolitan Museum
costume collection, like the original Coccoon coat, the Claire McCardell
dress, the Cloisters dress. The two you want may have been among that Met
collection  I'm not sure..But I would just keep the eBay search going &
eventually they will turn up.
Good Luck!
Deb R.

There are a few good second hand pattern web sites, many of which
are listed at this page (BTW this is the new address):

Vintage Pattern WebRing
http://X.webring.com/hub?ring=pattern1

Also there is:
monsterpatterns.com
http://www.monsterpatterns.com/

> I'm searching for a couple out-of-print Folkwear patterns
> ("adapted from the collection of the Metropolitan Museum of Art")
> 506 (1920's Equestrienne)
> 508 (1915 Traveling Suit)
>
> Other than eBay, does anyone have any recommendations of places to look?
>
> Thanks,
> Anahita

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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Mon Aug 25 04:53:35 2003
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Subject: [h-cost] French dress 1496-1498 corset or not
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Hi,

A friend of mine would like to make a dress that looks early tudor to me.
It is French 1496-1498
http://www.deredere.dds.nl/Tudor/Tudor.jpg
It is the blue orange dress in the front
of the picture.
I wonder if this dress is worn with a corset or that the dress is
stiffened.

Greetings,
Deredere


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Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 02:04:27 -0700
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] French dress 1496-1498 corset or not
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>A friend of mine would like to make a dress that looks early tudor to me.
>It is French 1496-1498
>http://www.deredere.dds.nl/Tudor/Tudor.jpg
>It is the blue orange dress in the front
>of the picture.
>I wonder if this dress is worn with a corset or that the dress is
>stiffened.

I'd say corset.  I think Koehler has a picture of such a corset, albeit 
only in drawing form.  Or I may have seen that corset elsewhere.


        CarolynKayta Barrows
dollmaker, fibre artist, textillian
          www.FunStuft.com

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On Mon, 25 Aug 2003, Deredere Galbraith wrote:

> It is French 1496-1498
> http://www.deredere.dds.nl/Tudor/Tudor.jpg
> It is the blue orange dress in the front
> of the picture.
> I wonder if this dress is worn with a corset or that the dress is
> stiffened.

The world wonders with you. Exact time when people started wearing stays 
in unknown, but first survived corset is from 100 year later than the date 
you gave for the painting. 

I'd personally just use hair canvas and possibly  some boning the the 
dress itself

-- 
Lynoure Rajamaki
lynoure@tuug.fi
http://www.lynoure.com

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http://www.luigi-bevilacqua.com/english/index.mv

Greetings,
        Deredere


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Subject: Re: [h-cost] French dress 1496-1498 corset or not
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Duuuuuddddee! The Blue dress is what I'm going to be recreating;) Seeing as
I have a delicious copy of it in Medieval Art of Love:)

Robinet Testard is the artist for anyone wondering, and didn't click the
link;)

I have found a new favourite artist. I did a search for him on the net, and
found a copy of Simple Medicine.. which was not so simple in price...

I'm not sure if I'd say a corset is worn. Not considering it's evolution in
terms of what it's from and where it's heading.

I'm still thinking fitted kirtle underneath doing the shaping. Of course
there may be some separation of the body and skirt of the kirtle (and you
can see this happening earlier in the century). So the bodice may have some
additional padding.

But the ideal shape just prior to this was for a very flat chest anyway, and
the figure still isn't hightly developed so there is not likely to be a
corset as we may be more familiar with toward the end of the 16thC, as it
only takes a little to get that shape with a less developed figure.
*cough*likeme*cough* Side lacing the kirtle also helps get that shape as you
have a flat expanse of fabric over the bust.
Look at the figure in the top. She is wearing a kirtle that is not front
laced, that's about the same as I'd make for under the gown. I'd make the
sleeves briefer though for wearing under s gown with sleeves that fit to the
elbow.

And the figure is an idealisation so we are not talking about what an
average woman would look like;)

If you are going to look at Tudor look at early tudor, up to about when
Holbein sketched the moore family. The bodies are not so stiff as in formal
protraits.

I have found a lovely tapestry of a similar dress, and her hair is just a
killer. Much like the little girl holding the casket in one of the Lady and
the Unicorn Tapestries.

michaela
http://costumes.glittersweet.com


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The reasons for asking about blackwork on silk is because I'm making the
Anna Meyer dress.

http://costumes.glittersweet.com/annameyer.htm

Now, I baulk at the idea of trimming a fine wool with linen even if it is
going to be supporting some spiffy blackwork (the pattern is driving me
nuts, looking really closely it's all made up of little step type stitches,
which don't work for some of the angles so I'm doing more testing than a
sane person should.)

Anyway, each case I've found where a source says "on silk" has proved to be
a typo. I'm still looking;) But it's getting annoying.

I am looking for a linen I like to do the bands with, and that's proving as
difficult to find.

I'd rather do the embroidery directly onto the wool to be honest;)
Nevermind, I'll keep plugging away and whinge and moan when I have to use
linen in the end;)

michaela
http://costumes.glittersweet.com


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michaela wrote:
> I'm not sure if I'd say a corset is worn.

On my monitor, I can definitely see breast shaping in the blue of the 
bodice.  A tudor type corset wouldn't let you see that at all, you'd 
just get flat fabric.

But some canvas lining might be useful for that preternaturally smooth side.

Is there a term for this era?  I tend to call it "proto tudor" in my 
head, and includes the 'mon seul desir' unicorn tapestries.

-- 
Cynthia Virtue and/or
Cynthia du Pr Argent

Medieval baby-in-a-walker toddler T-shirt: http://store.virtue.to
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Perhpas you may have already come across this, but for your research on fine
wool in the lowlands, try "The New Draperies in the Low Counties and
England" from Pasold Studies in Textile History  - 10, edited by N.B. Harte
it goes into the changes in cloth manufacturing that produced the lighter
wool cloths.

Lisa Sinervo
www.ThrednedleStrete.com


----- Original Message -----
From: "michaela" <thebruce@ihug.co.nz>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Monday, August 25, 2003 3:53 AM
Subject: [h-cost] Latest Project


> The reasons for asking about blackwork on silk is because I'm making the
> Anna Meyer dress.
>
> http://costumes.glittersweet.com/annameyer.htm
>
> Now, I baulk at the idea of trimming a fine wool with linen even if it is
> going to be supporting some spiffy blackwork (the pattern is driving me
> nuts, looking really closely it's all made up of little step type
stitches,
> which don't work for some of the angles so I'm doing more testing than a
> sane person should.)
>
> Anyway, each case I've found where a source says "on silk" has proved to
be
> a typo. I'm still looking;) But it's getting annoying.
>
> I am looking for a linen I like to do the bands with, and that's proving
as
> difficult to find.
>
> I'd rather do the embroidery directly onto the wool to be honest;)
> Nevermind, I'll keep plugging away and whinge and moan when I have to use
> linen in the end;)
>
> michaela
> http://costumes.glittersweet.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume


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Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 06:15:50 -0700 (PDT)
From: KATHRYN WOLTERS <albrakat7@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Handwoven 100% silk velvets and more nice fabrics
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
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What beautiful fabrics---!! I did'nt see any prices--though--and am , frankly afraid to ask.
Sigh!! I NEED that winning LOTTO ticket!
lol!
Albra

Deredere Galbraith <triade@kabelfoon.nl> wrote:
http://www.luigi-bevilacqua.com/english/index.mv

Greetings,
Deredere


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Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 08:10:52 -0700
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] French dress 1496-1498 corset or not
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> A friend of mine would like to make a dress that looks early tudor to
> me. It is French 1496-1498 http://www.deredere.dds.nl/Tudor/Tudor.jpg
> It is the blue orange dress in the front of the picture. I wonder if
> this dress is worn with a corset or that the dress is stiffened.

That early they were still using a fitted underdress reminiscent of 
the fitted gothic dress. 

>From everything I've been able to find, they didn't stiffen the dress 
itself or wear a corset until much later. And before they did corsets 
like we think of them, they were using "pasted linen" (which would be 
like our crown buckram) instead of things like reeds or whalebone.

For this one I'd probably go for a fitted gothic dress with a squared 
neckline.

Kat
<kat@redtrollforge.com>


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Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 11:46:43 -0700
From: Kimiko Small <kimiko@kimiko1.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] slops and canions
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At 06:49 PM 8/22/2003 -0700, you wrote:
>Janet Arnold's Patterns of Fashion describes the trunk hose/canion
>construction for Sir Richard Cott's extant garment as follows:

Hi Lisa,

I have that book, and I didn't even think to look into it. Duh!!

Thanks for pointing this out to me. I will be looking at it in more detail, 
but so far it looks to be one garment, with the slops sewn to the canions, 
then attached to the doublet with points. This is a later garment than the 
1588 images I am looking at, but otherwise seem very similar.

Thanks again!

Kimiko



Kimiko Small
Costumer, Fiber Artist, Web Designer, Wife and Mother
kimiko@kimiko1.com; http://www.kimiko1.com
"When there is fear, there is no creativity" ~ C. Lowell

Graphic Intern at Costume Gallery
http://www.costumegallery.com

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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Mon Aug 25 15:41:36 2003
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Subject: [h-cost] Female archers 1885
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Hi,

Found a picture of female archers from 1885
http://www.costumes.org/history/victorian/women/fashionplates/1885archers.jpg
And I was wondering if there are more pictures of female archers of this 
time.

Every year we have an archery competition in a openair museum. And they 
like it when you come in an appropriate costume.
I would love to make such a dress and have some pictures to let people 
see that it is correct for the museum.... :-)

Greetings,
        Deredere


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I'm currently re-doing an earlier gold work project (collar and cuffs for a Florentine outfit 1350-1365) and I was wondering if anyone has heard of an email list devoted to this topic?

Thanks!

Colleen

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Subject: Re: [h-cost] French dress 1496-1498 corset or not
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michaela wrote:
> I'm not sure if I'd say a corset is worn.

On my monitor, I can definitely see breast shaping in the blue of the
bodice.  A tudor type corset wouldn't let you see that at all, you'd
just get flat fabric.

But some canvas lining might be useful for that preternaturally smooth side.

I'd agree with the no corset theory. I spent a lot of time looking
at dresses from this period, both English and French, a few years ago,
and I think the support is all in the kirtle. Sometimes the overgowns of
this style are quite loose and wrinkly.

Is there a term for this era?  I tend to call it "proto tudor" in my
head, and includes the 'mon seul desir' unicorn tapestries.

I call it proto-Tudor too. It's one of my favourites, probably
because it's so rarely done.
Claire

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From: Claire Clarke <Lady_Angharad@bigpond.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Female archers 1885
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
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----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Deredere Galbraith" <triade@kabelfoon.nl>
To: "H-Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2003 5:44 AM
Subject: [h-cost] Female archers 1885


> Hi,
>
> Found a picture of female archers from 1885
>
http://www.costumes.org/history/victorian/women/fashionplates/1885archers.jpg
> And I was wondering if there are more pictures of female archers of this
> time.
>
>
There is a painting called "The Fair Toxophilites" or something similar. I
have it in a costume book around here somewhere (the one by James
Laver, I can't remember the title). That is only of three women, but from
a similar time period. One of them is wearing a rather nice purple
dress that I've had my eye on for a while.

Claire

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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Is there an email list for gold work?
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Colleen McDonald wrote:
> I'm currently re-doing an earlier gold work project (collar and cuffs for a Florentine outfit 1350-1365) and I was wondering if anyone has heard of an email list devoted to this topic?
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> Colleen

I don't know of a gold-work-specific list, but the topic does get 
discussed on the historic needlework list.

http://www.ansteorra.org/mailman/listinfo/h-needlework

--Charlene

-- 
Depression is merely anger without enthusiasm.  -- Steven Wright

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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Female archers 1885
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Here's a link to an image of this painting -- it's by William Frith, 1872.
http://tinyurl.com/l632

- Kendra

----- Original Message -----
From: "Claire Clarke" <Lady_Angharad@bigpond.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Female archers 1885


> There is a painting called "The Fair Toxophilites" or something similar. I
> have it in a costume book around here somewhere (the one by James
> Laver, I can't remember the title). That is only of three women, but from
> a similar time period. One of them is wearing a rather nice purple
> dress that I've had my eye on for a while.

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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Mon Aug 25 20:03:54 2003
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Subject: [h-cost] Castle Howard Auction
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If anyone is interested in historic costume auctions (or just the pretty
catalogs), Castle Howard, a fairly famous museum in the UK with a
notable costume collection, is apparently having a house sale. I am not
sure of the details or what is featured in the sale, but the Sotheby's
web site is offering a catalog for a "house sale" at Castle Howard on
October 7th. There is a picture of an embroidered 18th century waistcoat
on the cover of the catalog...plus the contact person for the sale is
the specialist for the Costume & Textiles department, so it is probably
safe to say the sale has a good amount of such items...It's around $28
US. BTW I am NOT affiliated with Sothebys.
Cheers,
Deb R.


Here are some Sothebys URLs:

Sotheby's Auctions  Calendar 
single owner sale - castle howard:
http://search.sothebys.com/jsps/live/event/EventDetail.jsp?event_id=26373

Sotheby's Auctions  Specialist Departments 
house sales:
http://search.sothebys.com/jsps/live/dept/DeptGlobal.jsp?dept_id=102

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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] slops and canions
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Hi, All. Since the slops/canions question has been answered, I will 
comment on the hose question. It appears the Sir Christopher is wearing 
a Garter, as in the award, as opposed to a functional one. It is then 
possible that, as a wealthy man, he may be wearing silk knitted hose 
(the illo is hard to see, but there appears to be some sort of clocking 
at the ankle, though this alone does not indicate knitted hose 
specifically), which will have a certain amount of stretch at the knee, 
facilitating their staying up. I had (alas, they have been eaten up by 
moths) a nice light pair of knitted woolen hose that did the same in 
terms of fit. Cut hose of cloth might even have the same fit, if made of 
light woolen stuff and cut on the bias, or perhaps even silk or linen. 
Later fashions indicate the use of points to "truss up" ones hose to the 
bottom of the breeches, but that style is about 20-30 yrs. off from this 
portrait, IIRC.  Hope this helps... Mike T.



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From: "Lisa Sinervo" <Lisa-list@threadneedlest.com>
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] slops and canions
Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 18:51:40 -0700
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I just noticed that the image of Robert Dudley 1588 by Nicolas Hillard also
has a garter only on the left leg see
http://www.thrednedlestrete.com/morse/p37.htm .  After looking at these two
images a bit closer, I think the canions are going over the stockings and
the garter is just decorative something else we cannot see is holding the
stockings up.  I have a pair of hand knit silk stockings and the only way
they stay up is through the use of garters.

Lisa Sinervo
www.ThrednedleStrete.com



----- Original Message -----
From: "michael tartaglio" <mikes@dandy.net>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Monday, August 25, 2003 6:06 PM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] slops and canions


> Hi, All. Since the slops/canions question has been answered, I will
> comment on the hose question. It appears the Sir Christopher is wearing
> a Garter, as in the award, as opposed to a functional one. It is then
> possible that, as a wealthy man, he may be wearing silk knitted hose
> (the illo is hard to see, but there appears to be some sort of clocking
> at the ankle, though this alone does not indicate knitted hose
> specifically), which will have a certain amount of stretch at the knee,
> facilitating their staying up. I had (alas, they have been eaten up by
> moths) a nice light pair of knitted woolen hose that did the same in
> terms of fit. Cut hose of cloth might even have the same fit, if made of
> light woolen stuff and cut on the bias, or perhaps even silk or linen.
> Later fashions indicate the use of points to "truss up" ones hose to the
> bottom of the breeches, but that style is about 20-30 yrs. off from this
> portrait, IIRC.  Hope this helps... Mike T.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
>


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From: kat@grendal.rain.com
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 18:52:38 -0700
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] French dress 1496-1498 corset or not
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> Is there a term for this era?  I tend to call it "proto tudor" in my
> head, and includes the 'mon seul desir' unicorn tapestries.
> 
> I call it proto-Tudor too. It's one of my favourites, probably
> because it's so rarely done.
> Claire

I've always called it either "Henry VII Tudor" or "Early Tudor". If 
it's after 1485 it's definitely Tudor in England. ;)

Then comes Henry VIII Tudor which is the classic "non-Elizabethan 
Tudor" (which also generally includes everything up to and including 
1558 when Mary I died.) Some still call this "early Tudor". To me 
it's more "middle Tudor."

Then comes Elizabethan or Late Tudor.

I really like pre-Elizabethan Tudor, but my favorite time is 1525-
1545.

Kat
<kat@redtrollforge.com>


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Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 23:09:48 -0500
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Danielle Nunn-Weinberg <dannw@mn.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] French dress 1496-1498 corset or not
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Status: RO

Greetings,

Well, I would say no corset, just a well fitting kirtle underneath.  From 
what I remember correctly (Drea back me up on this) - the earliest 
references to corsets (or boned bodies of any sort) is in the 
1550s.  However, from that time period there are references to bodices 
lined with "buckram."  Does that help?

Cheers,
Danielle

At 10:56 AM 8/25/2003 +0200, you wrote:
>Hi,
>
>A friend of mine would like to make a dress that looks early tudor to me.
>It is French 1496-1498
>http://www.deredere.dds.nl/Tudor/Tudor.jpg
>It is the blue orange dress in the front
>of the picture.
>I wonder if this dress is worn with a corset or that the dress is
>stiffened.
>
>Greetings,
>Deredere

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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Tue Aug 26 00:17:34 2003
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Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 23:14:53 -0500
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Danielle Nunn-Weinberg <dannw@mn.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Perfect outfit
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Status: RO

Well, if you do, please let me know!  I have no suggestions on the budget 
idea though, sigh.  But, if I ever manage to win the lottery it shouldn't 
be a problem. <G>  I would love to be able to do something in Regency 
clothes...does anyone happen to know of anything in the Minnesota area?

Cheers,
Danielle

At 05:29 PM 8/19/2003 -0700, you wrote:
>mmmm---I'm beginning to think that maybe I should seriously try to make 
>that fantasy come true:) Several of my costumning  friends off list also 
>got enthusiastic about doing  this idea. I'll have to give it some 
>more  thought---how to make it economically feasible for'  Ladies with 
>Less than an Heiress' Imcome'??
>Albra
>
>Danielle Nunn-Weinberg <dannw@mn.rr.com> wrote:
>At 06:24 PM 8/15/2003 -0700, you wrote:
> >And my fantasy would be an orchestrated event --at which I could wear an
> >entire wardrobe of Regency clothes over the course of an entire week at
> >some country manor :) Maybe a dozen or so other people participating.
> >There would be all sorts of outings, pic-nics, riding, etc . And I would
> >need not only a good ladies' maid --but an excellent butler and cook , as
> >well:)LOL!
> >Albra
>
>Oooooo! If you do pick me! I would *love* to do something like that and I
>even own a gold lorgnette now so I can have fun playing a grande dame.
>
>Cheers,
>Danielle

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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Latest Project
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> Perhpas you may have already come across this, but for your research on
fine
> wool in the lowlands, try "The New Draperies in the Low Counties and
> England" from Pasold Studies in Textile History  - 10, edited by N.B.
Harte
> it goes into the changes in cloth manufacturing that produced the lighter
> wool cloths.

To be honest I haven't tried documenting the wool, I have seen those
Scandanavian finds of 12thC wools, they were a different weave of course,
but very fine (and pleated;) ) And I have heard that widths of wools and
finess of wools varied and were better than "we" tend to think of them.

So thank you for the reference, it's definately something I am very
interested in. Especially as it does give some further clues to society as
will as costume (use of the wools, technological advances, monetary values
etc)

Now if only there was a book of all the extant embroideries for
garments...;)

michaela
http://costumes.glittersweet.com


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From: Ella Lynoure Rajamaki <lynoure@tuug.fi>
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] French dress 1496-1498 corset or not
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On Mon, 25 Aug 2003, Danielle Nunn-Weinberg wrote:

> Well, I would say no corset, just a well fitting kirtle underneath.  From 
> what I remember correctly (Drea back me up on this) - the earliest 
> references to corsets (or boned bodies of any sort) is in the 
> 1550s.  However, from that time period there are references to bodices 
> lined with "buckram."  Does that help?

This brings me to a thing I have occasionally been wondering about: the
possible lines on the bodice in La Belle Ferronniere (by da Vinci). They
are arranged in a way boning might be, them seem to have thickness (the
point where two of those lines cross looks thicker) and do not seem to be
very decorative.


The portrait can be found at:
http://leo.skyar.com/belle.htm 

-- 
Lynoure Rajamaki
lynoure@tuug.fi

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From: =?iso-8859-1?q?N=20Kipar?= <nicolas_fouquet@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] slops and canions
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
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 --- Lisa Sinervo <Lisa-list@threadneedlest.com> wrote: > I just noticed that
the image of Robert Dudley 1588 by Nicolas Hillard also
> has a garter only on the left leg see
> http://www.thrednedlestrete.com/morse/p37.htm .  After looking at these two
> images a bit closer, I think the canions are going over the stockings and
> the garter is just decorative something else we cannot see is holding the
> stockings up.  I have a pair of hand knit silk stockings and the only way
> they stay up is through the use of garters.

Lisa, he is wearing the ORDER of the Garter! This is NOT a normal garter, not
at all, and it is only worn on one knee. It is blue and brocaded with the
garter inscription.

Nicole

=====
Artemis - One of the Three Baroque Lurve Goddess    
http://www.kipar.org/temp/baroque-lurve-goddesses.jpg

Email: nicole@kipar.org
URL: http://www.kipar.org

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I heard an item about this on BBC Radio 4 last week.
Castle Howard is actually a historic house, famous as the setting for the 1980s TV version of "Brideshead Revisited". One wing of the house was burnt out in the 1940s. Apparently the Howard family started the costume collection in recent decades, and it starts with the late 18th century and includes a lot of modern costumes - they used to ask people they met who wore distinctive clothing, such as bikers, to pass discarded garments on to them. However, the collection has not been on display to the public, and because of the expense of storing the clothes in suitable conditions, the owners have decided to sell it to fund the restoration of the burned-out wing.


Kate Bunting
Library, University of Derby

>>> martyr@gti.net 08/24/03 11:59pm >>>
If anyone is interested in historic costume auctions (or just the pretty
catalogs), Castle Howard, a fairly famous museum in the UK with a
notable costume collection, is apparently having a house sale. I am not
sure of the details or what is featured in the sale, but the Sotheby's
web site is offering a catalog for a "house sale" at Castle Howard on
October 7th. There is a picture of an embroidered 18th century waistcoat
on the cover of the catalog...plus the contact person for the sale is
the specialist for the Costume & Textiles department, so it is probably
safe to say the sale has a good amount of such items...It's around $28
US. BTW I am NOT affiliated with Sothebys.
Cheers,
Deb R.


Here are some Sothebys URLs:

Sotheby's Auctions  Calendar 
single owner sale - castle howard:
http://search.sothebys.com/jsps/live/event/EventDetail.jsp?event_id=26373 

Sotheby's Auctions  Specialist Departments 
house sales:
http://search.sothebys.com/jsps/live/dept/DeptGlobal.jsp?dept_id=102 

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Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 05:54:46 -0600
From: Sue Clemenger <mooncat@in-tch.com>
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and at least one opportunity for posing thoughtfully on a windy
cliff....
--sue, indulging in her own fantasy moment....

Heather Meadows wrote:
> 
> yes yes!  with lots of moor-stomping and long angry walks, so we can
> run into tall handsome men...
> 
> *ahem*  sorry, total fantasy moment.
> 
> .heather.
> 
> On Friday, August 15, 2003, at 06:24 PM, KATHRYN WOLTERS wrote:
> 
> > And my fantasy would be an orchestrated event --at which I could wear
> > an entire wardrobe of Regency clothes over the course of an entire
> > week at some country manor :) Maybe a dozen or so  other people
> > participating. There would be all sorts of outings, pic-nics, riding,
> > etc . And I would need not only a good ladies' maid --but an excellent
> > butler and cook , as well:)LOL!
> > Albra
> >
> > Heather Rose Jones <hrjones@socrates.berkeley.edu> wrote:
> > At 1:19 AM -0700 8/15/03, Carolyn Kayta Barrows wrote:
> >>>> If y'all had the chance to make one "perfect outfit," and had up to
> >>>> 2
> >>>> years to complete it, what would you make, and why? This can be a
> >>>> special costume, or garb, or a very special dress.
> >>>
> >>> I don't really have a fantasy about one "perfect outfit." But
> >>> sometimes I
> >>> *do* fantasize about being able to invest serious time into a high
> >>> accuracy
> >>> Viking wardrobe.
> >>
> >> Yeah, like she said. I'd want a whole weekend's worth of
> >> Edwardians, including changing clothes for several daytime
> >> activities and night-time ones, plus traveling clothes to get to the
> >> event and back, plus night-wear and a peignoir, and, of course,
> >> underwear and petticoats, hats, purses, shoes, etc.
> >
> > And that essential accessory ... a lady's maid!
> >
> > Heather
> > --
> > *****
> > Heather Rose Jones
> > hrjones@socrates.berkeley.edu
> > *****
> > _______________________________________________
> > h-costume mailing list
> > h-costume@mail.indra.com
> > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------
> > Do you Yahoo!?
> > Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software
> > _______________________________________________
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> >
> 
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Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 09:20:38 -0400 (EDT)
From: Katy Bishop <vintage@shore.net>
To: Kate M Bunting <K.M.Bunting@derby.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Castle Howard Auction
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I have a costume book entitled "Costume at Castle Howard"  covers 18th
through early 20th Century costumes.

Katy

On Tue, 26 Aug 2003, Kate M Bunting wrote:

>I heard an item about this on BBC Radio 4 last week.
>Castle Howard is actually a historic house, famous as the setting for the 1980s TV version of "Brideshead Revisited". One wing of the house was burnt out in the 1940s. Apparently the Howard family started the costume collection in recent decades, and it starts with the late 18th century and includes a lot of modern costumes - they used to ask people they met who wore distinctive clothing, such as bikers, to pass discarded garments on to them. However, the collection has not been on display to the public, and because of the expense of storing the clothes in suitable conditions, the owners have decided to sell it to fund the restoration of the burned-out wing.
>
>
>Kate Bunting
>Library, University of Derby
>
>>>> martyr@gti.net 08/24/03 11:59pm >>>
>If anyone is interested in historic costume auctions (or just the pretty
>catalogs), Castle Howard, a fairly famous museum in the UK with a
>notable costume collection, is apparently having a house sale. I am not
>sure of the details or what is featured in the sale, but the Sotheby's
>web site is offering a catalog for a "house sale" at Castle Howard on
>October 7th. There is a picture of an embroidered 18th century waistcoat
>on the cover of the catalog...plus the contact person for the sale is
>the specialist for the Costume & Textiles department, so it is probably
>safe to say the sale has a good amount of such items...It's around $28
>US. BTW I am NOT affiliated with Sothebys.
>Cheers,
>Deb R.
>
>
>Here are some Sothebys URLs:
>
>Sotheby's Auctions  Calendar 
>single owner sale - castle howard:
>http://search.sothebys.com/jsps/live/event/EventDetail.jsp?event_id=26373
>
>Sotheby's Auctions  Specialist Departments 
>house sales:
>http://search.sothebys.com/jsps/live/dept/DeptGlobal.jsp?dept_id=102
>
>_______________________________________________
>h-costume mailing list
>h-costume@mail.indra.com
>http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
>
>________________________________________________________________________
>This email has been scanned for all viruses by the MessageLabs Email
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Katy Bishop, Vintage Victorian
vintage@shore.net                www.VintageVictorian.com
     Custom reproduction gowns of the Victorian Era.
      Publisher of the Vintage Dress Series books.


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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Castle Howard Auction
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I understand it is a unique collection, specialising in the clothing of
ordinary people.
Linda Walton.

Katy Bishop wrote:-
> I have a costume book entitled "Costume at Castle Howard"  covers 18th
> through early 20th Century costumes.
>
> Katy
>
> On Tue, 26 Aug 2003, Kate M Bunting wrote:
>
> >I heard an item about this on BBC Radio 4 last week.
> >Castle Howard is actually a historic house, famous as the setting for the
1980s TV version of "Brideshead Revisited". One wing of the house was burnt
out in the 1940s. Apparently the Howard family started the costume
collection in recent decades, and it starts with the late 18th century and
includes a lot of modern costumes - they used to ask people they met who
wore distinctive clothing, such as bikers, to pass discarded garments on to
them. However, the collection has not been on display to the public, and
because of the expense of storing the clothes in suitable conditions, the
owners have decided to sell it to fund the restoration of the burned-out
wing.
> >
> >
> >Kate Bunting
> >Library, University of Derby
> >
> >>>> martyr@gti.net 08/24/03 11:59pm >>>
> >If anyone is interested in historic costume auctions (or just the pretty
> >catalogs), Castle Howard, a fairly famous museum in the UK with a
> >notable costume collection, is apparently having a house sale. I am not
> >sure of the details or what is featured in the sale, but the Sotheby's
> >web site is offering a catalog for a "house sale" at Castle Howard on
> >October 7th. There is a picture of an embroidered 18th century waistcoat
> >on the cover of the catalog...plus the contact person for the sale is
> >the specialist for the Costume & Textiles department, so it is probably
> >safe to say the sale has a good amount of such items...It's around $28
> >US. BTW I am NOT affiliated with Sothebys.
> >Cheers,
> >Deb R.
> >
> >
> >Here are some Sothebys URLs:
> >
> >Sotheby's Auctions  Calendar 
> >single owner sale - castle howard:
> >http://search.sothebys.com/jsps/live/event/EventDetail.jsp?event_id=26373
> >
> >Sotheby's Auctions  Specialist Departments 
> >house sales:
> >http://search.sothebys.com/jsps/live/dept/DeptGlobal.jsp?dept_id=102
> >

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From: "Kate M Bunting" <K.M.Bunting@derby.ac.uk>
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Subject: [H-COST] Forehead cloth
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Some time ago we discussed the function of the forehead cloth (a
triangular piece of linen worn in conjunction with the 17th century
coif). Well, at the weekend I tried wearing one. My hair is so thick and
straight that I have to  wear a fringe (bangs) even though it's not
appropriate for period hairstyles, and I always found that it gradually
pushed the coif round sideways so that I was constantly tugging at one
side to straighten it. With a cloth tied round my head under the coif I
was comfortable all day. I shall definitely wear one in future!

Kate Bunting
Library, University of Derby
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From: kat@grendal.rain.com
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] French dress 1496-1498 corset or not
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> This brings me to a thing I have occasionally been wondering about:
> the possible lines on the bodice in La Belle Ferronniere (by da
> Vinci). They are arranged in a way boning might be, them seem to have
> thickness (the point where two of those lines cross looks thicker) and
> do not seem to be very decorative.
> The portrait can be found at:
> http://leo.skyar.com/belle.htm 

To me it looks like she has a striped fabric in the front (giving the 
vertical lines) and the seams and neckline is trimmed (which was very 
common) giving the other lines. It was both a decorative and a 
functional treatment in that by trimming the seams you make them 
stronger. (You can see this in many late 15th C and 16th C dresses. 
Look through Janet Arnold's Patterns of Fashion 1560-1620 for 
examples in extant garments.)

This one doesn't need to be boned. That isn't to say that it isn't 
interlined to give it a smooth line, but I've seen it made without 
any bones and coming out just like this. Also, Italy actually was 
amongst the latest to go from a fitted dress or multilayer bodice to 
a boned garment.

A similar painting to this is the one of Ludovico Sforza and Beatrice 
d'Este (I couldn't find a web copy of it but it's on page 40 of 
Jacqueline Herald's Renaissance Dress in Italy 1400-1500. Detail of 
the dress on page 221.) Most of the Italian dresses from the Spanish 
influenced area Italy seem to have similar styling. They all appear 
to have fitted under dresses similar to what is described as a 
"fitted Gothic dress". (Often you can see the edges of the underdress 
even.) Also, J. Herald, RDiI: page 195 (sorry, I couldn't find it on 
the web).

Some that are on the web:
http://www.nga.gov/cgi-bin/pinfo?Object=1195+0+none
http://www.kfki.hu/~arthp/html/a/araldi/index.html

Kat
<kat@redtrollforge.com>


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Forwarded by request.  Please direct any responses to tandb (at) drizzle.com as Teresa is not on this list currently.  Thanks!  Colleen

**************************************************************************************************

Good Morning!  I am in search of someone who worked with Janet Arnold while she was researching/writing "Queen Elizabeth's Wardrobe Unlock'd."  I have a question about a piece pictured in the Folger Inventory index.  Her description and dates differ slightly from the V&A's and I am interested in how the discrepancy happened.  Thank you in advance for your willingness to help!

 

Teresa Kellmer

 

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From: Ella Lynoure Rajamaki <lynoure@tuug.fi>
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] French dress 1496-1498 corset or not
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On Tue, 26 Aug 2003 kat@grendal.rain.com wrote:

> To me it looks like she has a striped fabric in the front (giving the 
> vertical lines) and the seams and neckline is trimmed (which was very 
> common) giving the other lines. 

Trimmed with something that exactly matches the stripes on the fabric?
Yes, trimming was common, but I do not remember seeing it done in quite so 
matching way. (I'm not saying those are bones, just wondering if they 
are.)

In a closer picture, which is somewhere in  http://www.artchive.com/
you can see some vague stripes on the sleeve as well. 

> This one doesn't need to be boned. That isn't to say that it isn't 
> interlined to give it a smooth line, but I've seen it made without 
> any bones and coming out just like this. 

Yes, I know that, hair canvas is a charm. I guess I was just fooled by the
weird shape the lines made and not seeing the dress from waist down.

> Some that are on the web:
> http://www.nga.gov/cgi-bin/pinfo?Object=1195+0+none
> http://www.kfki.hu/~arthp/html/a/araldi/index.html

Thanks for the lovely pictures. I couldn't get the second one to open as a 
larger picture. Does it work for someone? 

-- 
Lynoure Rajamaki
lynoure@tuug.fi

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How to I get myself taken off list for five days?  My Grandmother in law is 
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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Jean Waddie <anne@montgomerie.demon.co.uk>
Subject: [H-COST] Headwear discoveries WAS Forehead cloth
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Congratulations Kate - experimental archaeology triumphs again :-)

I made a similar discovery at the weekend, which I shall have to work on 
some more.  I have recently taken to wearing an undercap to pin my 12th 
century veils into, which really keeps them where they're put, and 
without visible means of support, as per the illustrations.  This 
weekend we were 1215, so I went for a separate wimple round the neck 
plus circular veil. Everything was slithering and blowing about, so I 
put a band round my forehead and under my bun, and pinned the wimple to 
it just in front of my ears.  It stayed all day without readjusting, and 
minimum wispiness!  I'm going to see if this is a route to something 
tighter around the neck than I have been able to achieve with my 
previous technique, which was pinned on top of the head.

Jean



Kate M Bunting <K.M.Bunting@derby.ac.uk> wrote
>Some time ago we discussed the function of the forehead cloth (a
>triangular piece of linen worn in conjunction with the 17th century
>coif). Well, at the weekend I tried wearing one. My hair is so thick and
>straight that I have to  wear a fringe (bangs) even though it's not
>appropriate for period hairstyles, and I always found that it gradually
>pushed the coif round sideways so that I was constantly tugging at one
>side to straighten it. With a cloth tied round my head under the coif I
>was comfortable all day. I shall definitely wear one in future!
>
>Kate Bunting
>Library, University of Derby
>_______________________________________________
>h-costume mailing list
>h-costume@mail.indra.com
>http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

-- 
Jean Waddie
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Jean Waddie wrote:
> I have recently taken to wearing an undercap to pin my 12th 
> century veils into, which really keeps them where they're put, and 
> without visible means of support, as per the illustrations.

Interesting!  Doesn't the undercap slip around?  Is it particularly fitted?

-- 
Cynthia Virtue and/or
Cynthia du Pr Argent

Medieval baby-in-a-walker toddler T-shirt: http://store.virtue.to
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> > To me it looks like she has a striped fabric in the front (giving
> > the vertical lines) and the seams and neckline is trimmed (which was
> > very common) giving the other lines. 
> 
> Trimmed with something that exactly matches the stripes on the fabric?
> Yes, trimming was common, but I do not remember seeing it done in
> quite so matching way. (I'm not saying those are bones, just wondering
> if they are.)

Probably trimmed with the same fabric as the dress itself.

> In a closer picture, which is somewhere in  http://www.artchive.com/
> you can see some vague stripes on the sleeve as well. 

Which makes it even more likely that it was trimmed with the same 
fabric.

> > http://www.kfki.hu/~arthp/html/a/araldi/index.html
> 
> Thanks for the lovely pictures. I couldn't get the second one to open
> as a larger picture. Does it work for someone? 

It opened for me. I don't know why it didn't open. Perhaps you could 
try again.

Kat
<kat@redtrollforge.com>


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Just unsubscribe and resubscribe as described here:
http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

-----Original Message-----
From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com] On
Behalf Of Jennifer Sena
Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2003 1:32 PM
To: h-costume@net.indra.com
Subject: [h-cost] temp unsub


How to I get myself taken off list for five days?  My Grandmother in law is 
dieing and we have to go see her, but I don't want my hotmail acct to start 
bouncing things while I'm away.



Jennifer Sena
Distant Designs
http://home.teleport.com/~cedric/distdesi

I wont hurt you, I just want to dress you up!!

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On Tue, 26 Aug 2003 16:12:58 -0700 "Saragrace T. Knauf"
<saragrace@earthlink.net> writes:
> Just unsubscribe and resubscribe as described here:
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> 
> 
> How to I get myself taken off list for five days?  My Grandmother in 
> law is 
> dieing and we have to go see her, but I don't want my hotmail acct 
> to start 
> bouncing things while I'm away.


        Or better yet, set your options to "no mail" temporarily.  I
can't remember exactly how to get there and do it, but it's through the
main page for indra.  I know it can be done, because I set one list to
"no mail" and then forgot to set it back for the whole of the local Ren
Faire season. <OOPS>  And it's alot less hassle than unsubbing and
resubbing.

Astrid
Never argue with a dragon, for thou art crunchy and go well with Brie.
    http://www.geocities.com/tul_juriss - for links to ALL my current
sites
    http://www.geocities.com/astridofthehorde - costumes I've made
    http://www.geocities.com/house_qul_mupwi - The noble Klingon House
    http://www.geocities.com/klingon_pirates_guild - The Klingon Pirate's
Guild

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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Danielle Nunn-Weinberg <dannw@mn.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] French dress 1496-1498 corset or not
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At 08:38 AM 8/26/2003 +0300, you wrote:
>On Mon, 25 Aug 2003, Danielle Nunn-Weinberg wrote:
>
> > Well, I would say no corset, just a well fitting kirtle underneath.  From
> > what I remember correctly (Drea back me up on this) - the earliest
> > references to corsets (or boned bodies of any sort) is in the
> > 1550s.  However, from that time period there are references to bodices
> > lined with "buckram."  Does that help?
>
>This brings me to a thing I have occasionally been wondering about: the
>possible lines on the bodice in La Belle Ferronniere (by da Vinci). They
>are arranged in a way boning might be, them seem to have thickness (the
>point where two of those lines cross looks thicker) and do not seem to be
>very decorative.
>
>The portrait can be found at:
>http://leo.skyar.com/belle.htm
>--
>Lynoure Rajamaki
>lynoure@tuug.fi

Well, I couldn't see much detail in that picture but to me it is clear 
there is a bust curve which would suggest no boning.  What came to mind for 
me for those ridges was trapunto, especially since they seem to be on the 
sleeves as well.  I don't know how early it was done in Italy however.

Cheers,
Danielle

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When I say undercap... what I use is sort of like a linen headscarf.  It 
has a straight strip sewn to a semicircular piece, and the strip extends 
a few inches beyond the semicircle at the ends.  The pattern's like a 
very small apron.  I put the band across my forehead, pull it round, 
tuck the semicircle in at the back and pin the strip, which I find gets 
a tighter fit than tying it.  I made this style by starting from a 
square piece and getting my husband to hack off the corners where they 
stuck out :-0

One of my friends uses a sprang hairnet instead, and, depending on where 
you want to pin things, you might get away with just a band tied or 
pinned from forehead to nape.

Jean

Cynthia Virtue <cvirtue+dated+1077486297.65ac43@thibault.org> wrote
>Jean Waddie wrote:
>> I have recently taken to wearing an undercap to pin my 12th  century 
>>veils into, which really keeps them where they're put, and  without 
>>visible means of support, as per the illustrations.
>
>Interesting!  Doesn't the undercap slip around?  Is it particularly fitted?
>

-- 
Jean Waddie
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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: "Genie L. Barrett" <genie@jb-av.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] blackwork questions Re: 1st batch V&A photos: 
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In the heat of battle, michaela was heard to exclaim:
>Thank you:)
>
>Now I do have a question about the blackworked shift. Drea says:
>"This smock is of fine white linen, embroidered with black silk (probably
>from Spain, according to the V&A) in stem, back and darning stitches with
>buttonhole fillings. The body and sleeves were made of a very fine silk,
>while the skirt (now missing--what's seen in the picture is a modern
>replacement) was made of a coarser linen. The lace is also a modern
>reproduction, copied from a period piece."


Yes, I think the "silk" is a typo.  I think it is supposed to say 
linen.  It sure doesn't look like linen in any of the pictures.

Genie B


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Subject: [h-cost] Coolest Italian shoes-I want some!  
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While attending our local art museum exhibit I saw another patron with the
coolest tie up shoes ever!  Their toes were pointed and curled up!  I
pointed at them and said I wanted them and then asked where she had gotten
them - Italy of course!  
 
Her husband accused her of paying me to say that.  He had asked her "Are you
really going to wear those?"  Has anyone else seen them or know where I can
get some?
 
Sg
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From: "Lisa Sinervo" <Lisa-list@threadneedlest.com>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] slops and canions
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Nicole wrote:
>
> Lisa, he is wearing the ORDER of the Garter! This is NOT a normal garter,
not
> at all, and it is only worn on one knee. It is blue and brocaded with the
> garter inscription.

Well that makes a great deal of sense.  Do you know of any extant Order of
the Garter, garters?  Or perhaps any good links discussing them?

Lisa Sinervo
www.ThrednedleStrete.com



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Are you talking about poulaine-style shoes? Polaines were a medieval era shoe.
You can buy them stock or have them custom made by an historic shoemaker. Or
were they modern designer shoes? For example, I have Kate Spade sandals that are
pointy & curl up at the toe. I guess they are poulaine inspired yet decidedly
modern. All the best shoes & leather goods in general come from Italy.
Deb R.

> While attending our local art museum exhibit I saw another patron with the
> coolest tie up shoes ever!  Their toes were pointed and curled up!  I
> pointed at them and said I wanted them and then asked where she had gotten
> them - Italy of course!
>
> Her husband accused her of paying me to say that.  He had asked her "Are you
> really going to wear those?"  Has anyone else seen them or know where I can
> get some?
>
> Sg
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Wed Aug 27 22:22:17 2003
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From: "Saragrace T. Knauf" <saragrace@earthlink.net>
To: "'Historical Costume'" <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: RE: [h-cost] Coolest Italian shoes-I want some!
Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 19:21:11 -0700
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These were modern.  As a matter of fact they kinda looked like this:
http://4yourfeet.safeshopper.com/162/517.htm?706 only with pointed, curled
toes.  If the toe were uncurled they would probably extend about 4 inches
beyond where the toes end.

I will try to look for Kate Spade shoes...thanks

-----Original Message-----
From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com] On
Behalf Of martyr@gti.net
Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2003 6:48 PM
To: Historical Costume
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Coolest Italian shoes-I want some!


Are you talking about poulaine-style shoes? Polaines were a medieval era
shoe. You can buy them stock or have them custom made by an historic
shoemaker. Or were they modern designer shoes? For example, I have Kate
Spade sandals that are pointy & curl up at the toe. I guess they are
poulaine inspired yet decidedly modern. All the best shoes & leather goods
in general come from Italy. Deb R.

> While attending our local art museum exhibit I saw another patron with 
> the coolest tie up shoes ever!  Their toes were pointed and curled up!  
> I pointed at them and said I wanted them and then asked where she had 
> gotten them - Italy of course!
>
> Her husband accused her of paying me to say that.  He had asked her 
> "Are you really going to wear those?"  Has anyone else seen them or 
> know where I can get some?
>
> Sg
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com 
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

_______________________________________________
h-costume mailing list
h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

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From: "Lisa Sinervo" <Lisa-list@threadneedlest.com>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
References: <001001c36d0b$0cf49810$6501a8c0@SG01>
Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 20:15:24 -0700
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Subject: [h-cost] 
	pendragon shoes brisbane was -  Coolest Italian shoes-I want some!
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There's a small shoe company in Brisbane called Pendragon shoes that may
have something you have in mind.  They do custom work too.
http://www.pendragon.au.com/costume/index.htm

Lisa Sinervo
www.ThrednedleStrete.com



----- Original Message -----
From: "Saragrace T. Knauf" <saragrace@earthlink.net>
To: "'Historical Costume'" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2003 7:21 PM
Subject: RE: [h-cost] Coolest Italian shoes-I want some!


> These were modern.  As a matter of fact they kinda looked like this:
> http://4yourfeet.safeshopper.com/162/517.htm?706 only with pointed, curled
> toes.  If the toe were uncurled they would probably extend about 4 inches
> beyond where the toes end.
>
> I will try to look for Kate Spade shoes...thanks
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com] On
> Behalf Of martyr@gti.net
> Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2003 6:48 PM
> To: Historical Costume
> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Coolest Italian shoes-I want some!
>
>
> Are you talking about poulaine-style shoes? Polaines were a medieval era
> shoe. You can buy them stock or have them custom made by an historic
> shoemaker. Or were they modern designer shoes? For example, I have Kate
> Spade sandals that are pointy & curl up at the toe. I guess they are
> poulaine inspired yet decidedly modern. All the best shoes & leather goods
> in general come from Italy. Deb R.
>
> > While attending our local art museum exhibit I saw another patron with
> > the coolest tie up shoes ever!  Their toes were pointed and curled up!
> > I pointed at them and said I wanted them and then asked where she had
> > gotten them - Italy of course!
> >
> > Her husband accused her of paying me to say that.  He had asked her
> > "Are you really going to wear those?"  Has anyone else seen them or
> > know where I can get some?
> >
> > Sg
> > _______________________________________________
> > h-costume mailing list
> > h-costume@mail.indra.com
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> _______________________________________________
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From: "Christopher Ballis" <stilskin@netspace.net.au>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: RE: [h-cost] pendragon shoes brisbane was -  Coolest Italian shoes-I
	want some!
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We make them to order (our cobbler is an orthopedic shoemaker who gets
bored), between 100-200 Australian dollars.

Also patent leather and tapestry shoes with personalised designs, bulb-toe
clown shoes, and wrestling/calf-lenth boots Prices between seventy-five and
two-fifty bucks.

Christopher Ballis,
general manager,
Weard
316 High St.,
Northcote, 3070
Australia
Tel.  (03)9486 2777
    +61 3 9486 2777
E-mail. stilskin@netspace.net.au
www.Weard.com.au

 with pointed, curled
> toes.  If the toe were uncurled they would probably extend about 4 inches
> beyond where the toes end.

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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Thu Aug 28 05:04:55 2003
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From: "Kate M Bunting" <K.M.Bunting@derby.ac.uk>
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] slops and canions
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A  quick Google search brings up
http://www.heraldicsculptor.com/Garters.html  among others.

Kate Bunting
Library, University of Derby

>>> Lisa-list@threadneedlest.com 08/28/03 02:00am >>>
Nicole wrote:
>
> Lisa, he is wearing the ORDER of the Garter! This is NOT a normal
garter,
not
> at all, and it is only worn on one knee. It is blue and brocaded with
the
> garter inscription.

Well that makes a great deal of sense.  Do you know of any extant Order
of
the Garter, garters?  Or perhaps any good links discussing them?

Lisa Sinervo
www.ThrednedleStrete.com 



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"Saragrace T. Knauf" <saragrace@earthlink.net> wrote:
> 
> These were modern.  As a matter of fact they kinda looked like this:
> http://4yourfeet.safeshopper.com/162/517.htm?706 only with pointed, curled
> toes.  If the toe were uncurled they would probably extend about 4 inches
> beyond where the toes end.

Not as an extreme a curled toe, but duck-toed english clogs:
http://gw.retro.com/employees/lee/Morris/clog1.jpg
(my dance clogs, in fact)

Lee M.Thompson-Herbert        lee@retro.com	      KoX 1995, SP4
Head Muso, White Rats Morris, Faultline Morris
Member, Knights of Xenu (1995).  Chaos Monger and Jill of All Trades.
"A head-on collision between Morticia Adams and Martha Stewart"
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From: Deredere Galbraith <triade@kabelfoon.nl>
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Subject: [h-cost] 1885 dress Fabric?
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Hi,

Are dresses from 1885 always made out of silk or can I also use cotton?
The dress is for doing archery.

Greetings,
        Deredere


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In a message dated 8/28/2003 11:35:47 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
triade@kabelfoon.nl writes:

> Are dresses from 1885 always made out of silk or can I also use cotton?
> The dress is for doing archery.
> 

Of course they aren't ALL silk. I have seen some real ones made from cotton. 
The one that comes to mind was the weight of sheeting and was a grey and pink 
stripe. It was in 3 pieces, a bodice that buttoned down the front, draped 
overskirt and an underskirt with 3 rows of narrow bias ruffles at the hem. Also I 
actually have a white cotton mull bustle ensemble.

You should check out the film "The Bostonians" which is actually 1876 but 
they go to the sea shore and wear all kinds of cotton things.

Also there is this kinda health craze in the bustle period, which is why 
women are doing archery in the 1st place, that somehow involves wool. Wool was 
considered healthy for all sports activities regardless of the time of year. You 
might consider a light "summer" wool.
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From: "Kim Baird" <kbaird@cableone.net>
To: "'Historical Costume'" <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: RE: [h-cost] 1885 dress Fabric?
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 11:18:27 -0500
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OF COURSE you can use cotton! Or linen or wool. Or any blend of those
with silk.

There were thousands of cotton prints available at the time, plus plaids
and stripes were popular. Combining 2 or more fabrics in one costume was
typical.

Necklines were high and tight, sleeves were fitted and a TINY bit short
of the wrist, probably with a cuff. A corset is required. Skirt would
probably be 2 layers--a draped overskirt or apron, woth a pleated
underskirt.

Bodice and skirt are constructed separately. Use hooks and eyes to keep
the bodice from riding up.

Kim

-----Original Message-----
From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com]
On Behalf Of Deredere Galbraith
Sent: Thursday, August 28, 2003 10:38 AM
To: H-Costume
Subject: [h-cost] 1885 dress Fabric?

Hi,

Are dresses from 1885 always made out of silk or can I also use cotton?
The dress is for doing archery.

Greetings,
        Deredere


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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Thu Aug 28 15:31:03 2003
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Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 12:29:43 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jennifer Fleury <jenniferfleury@sbcglobal.net>
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Subject: [h-cost] Re: order of the garter
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Lisa,
here are a couple links about the order of the garter.  The first is someone who makes them for sale-I saw one of them just last week at Long Beach Faire.  The second is a link to the gallery section of my guild's website.  The man in the first picture on the 2nd and 3rd rows is wearing a garter made by me-neither of these pictures are closeups, unfortunately and it's been worn to death so I don't dare take a photo until I've made him a new one.  I hand-embroidered it and it only took a few hours.  The other men who are wearing blue garters with gold fringe are wearing what is known as a "boot garter" which is described as having been blue satin with gold fringe, tied about the left knee on occasions when the KG is riding or wearing boots.  
 
http://www.stgeorge-va.com/garter.htm
http://www.guildofstaugustine.org/long_beach_2003_gallery.htm






Jennifer Fleury
Guild Master 2003-2004
The Guild of St. Augustine
www.guildofstaugustine.org
 
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Hello everyone,

I'm de-lurking for the first time because I'm sure
someone on the list can answer my question. Patterns
were on sale at Jo-ann, so I picked up this one:

http://www.simplicity.com/assets/5359/5359.jpg

I think the outfit on the left is really neat, but am
wondering what in real life it is based on. I did a
little searching on the web but haven't seen anything
that looks quite like this (ignoring the fabrics and
colors, I'm talking about he combination: puffy
panteloons, skirt, gathered blouse, vest, and
girdle-thingy). Have any of you seen such an outfit,
either historical or ethnic, or is it just fantasy?




Thanks bunches,
Claudine

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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Thu Aug 28 21:21:26 2003
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From: "Saragrace T. Knauf" <saragrace@earthlink.net>
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Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 18:20:51 -0700
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Subject: [h-cost] Weard! - was Coolest Italian shoes-Iwant some!
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I love that name!  Is it old English?  My girlfriend and I wanted to call
our 'business'
The Weird Sisters...I wasn't for it much, but now that I have seen this
spelling...I am all for it!

Sg

-----Original Message-----
From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com] On
Behalf Of Christopher Ballis
Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2003 9:30 PM
To: Historical Costume
Subject: RE: [h-cost] pendragon shoes brisbane was - Coolest Italian
shoes-Iwant some!



We make them to order (our cobbler is an orthopedic shoemaker who gets
bored), between 100-200 Australian dollars.

Also patent leather and tapestry shoes with personalised designs, bulb-toe
clown shoes, and wrestling/calf-lenth boots Prices between seventy-five and
two-fifty bucks.

Christopher Ballis,
general manager,
Weard
316 High St.,
Northcote, 3070
Australia
Tel.  (03)9486 2777
    +61 3 9486 2777
E-mail. stilskin@netspace.net.au
www.Weard.com.au

 with pointed, curled
> toes.  If the toe were uncurled they would probably extend about 4 
> inches beyond where the toes end.

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From: "Lisa Sinervo" <Lisa-list@threadneedlest.com>
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] simplicty #5359 - what is it?
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I don't have an answer to your question, but nice to meet you!

Lisa 


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Claudine Wong" <claudine_on_the_net@yahoo.com>
To: <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Thursday, August 28, 2003 5:41 PM
Subject: [h-cost] simplicty #5359 - what is it?


> Hello everyone,
> 
> I'm de-lurking for the first time because I'm sure
> someone on the list can answer my question. Patterns
> were on sale at Jo-ann, so I picked up this one:
> 
> http://www.simplicity.com/assets/5359/5359.jpg
> 
> I think the outfit on the left is really neat, but am
> wondering what in real life it is based on. I did a
> little searching on the web but haven't seen anything
> that looks quite like this (ignoring the fabrics and
> colors, I'm talking about he combination: puffy
> panteloons, skirt, gathered blouse, vest, and
> girdle-thingy). Have any of you seen such an outfit,
> either historical or ethnic, or is it just fantasy?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks bunches,
> Claudine
> 
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software
> http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com
> _______________________________________________
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> h-costume@mail.indra.com
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Subject: RE: [h-cost] simplicty #5359 - what is it?
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Looks reminiscent of something Folkwear patterns has, but it escapes me.
Try checking www.folkwear.com
Sg

-----Original Message-----
From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com] On
Behalf Of Claudine Wong
Sent: Thursday, August 28, 2003 5:41 PM
To: h-costume@indra.com
Subject: [h-cost] simplicty #5359 - what is it?


Hello everyone,

I'm de-lurking for the first time because I'm sure
someone on the list can answer my question. Patterns
were on sale at Jo-ann, so I picked up this one:

http://www.simplicity.com/assets/5359/5359.jpg

I think the outfit on the left is really neat, but am
wondering what in real life it is based on. I did a
little searching on the web but haven't seen anything
that looks quite like this (ignoring the fabrics and
colors, I'm talking about he combination: puffy
panteloons, skirt, gathered blouse, vest, and
girdle-thingy). Have any of you seen such an outfit,
either historical or ethnic, or is it just fantasy?




Thanks bunches,
Claudine

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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Thu Aug 28 21:38:52 2003
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From: "chiara" <chiara@io.com>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
References: <20030829004101.15202.qmail@web10406.mail.yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] simplicty #5359 - what is it?
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 20:36:28 -0500
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A better picture to dissect is :
http://www.simplicity.com/designFrontBack.cfm?designId=8154

where they take it apart in pieces and let you see it in its individual
parts. From here you can easily see what it is.
1. A basic veil
2. A fringed shawl
3. A simple sleeveless cropped V-necked top
4. A simple cap sleeve cropped V-necked top with fringe cuffs and hem
5. A simple ruffled skirt
6. A sectioned skirt that is mid calf length
7. A laced up waist cincher
8. Harem pants

Where do you find them all together like this?

Ok, someone else take the lead on that one cause all I can think of is "I
Dream of Jeanie", a pajama party (a really fun one that I want to go to
right now with lots of rum!!!), and not much else.

Chiara
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Claudine Wong" <claudine_on_the_net@yahoo.com>
To: <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Thursday, August 28, 2003 7:41 PM
Subject: [h-cost] simplicty #5359 - what is it?


: Hello everyone,
:
: I'm de-lurking for the first time because I'm sure
: someone on the list can answer my question. Patterns
: were on sale at Jo-ann, so I picked up this one:
:
: http://www.simplicity.com/assets/5359/5359.jpg
:
: I think the outfit on the left is really neat, but am
: wondering what in real life it is based on. I did a
: little searching on the web but haven't seen anything
: that looks quite like this (ignoring the fabrics and
: colors, I'm talking about he combination: puffy
: panteloons, skirt, gathered blouse, vest, and
: girdle-thingy). Have any of you seen such an outfit,
: either historical or ethnic, or is it just fantasy?
:
:
:
:
: Thanks bunches,
: Claudine
:
: __________________________________
: Do you Yahoo!?
: Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software
: http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com
: _______________________________________________
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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Thu Aug 28 21:55:30 2003
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From: Lee Thompson-Herbert <lee@retro.com>
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To: h-costume@indra.com
Subject: Re: [h-cost] simplicty #5359 - what is it?
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Claudine Wong <claudine_on_the_net@yahoo.com> wrote:
> 
> Hello everyone,
> 
> I'm de-lurking for the first time because I'm sure
> someone on the list can answer my question. Patterns
> were on sale at Jo-ann, so I picked up this one:
> 
> http://www.simplicity.com/assets/5359/5359.jpg
> 
> I think the outfit on the left is really neat, but am
> wondering what in real life it is based on. I did a
> little searching on the web but haven't seen anything
> that looks quite like this (ignoring the fabrics and
> colors, I'm talking about he combination: puffy
> panteloons, skirt, gathered blouse, vest, and
> girdle-thingy). Have any of you seen such an outfit,
> either historical or ethnic, or is it just fantasy?

Tribal belly dance.  The right top costume would be a very basic cabaret
outfit, the lower right looks more like a short-sleeved choli (indian 
garment usually worn under a sari) and a non-tiered skirt.  Left costume
looks like a panneled double-circle skirt, harem pants, then the weird
top.  I think they're trying for a gypsy look.  More common would be to
have a hip belt (mirrored, embroidered or tasseled) and a short vest/bodice.
Notice their vest doesn't close, which is actually a greek style.  A 
turkish or egyptian vest would close in the front.  The waist cincher thing
is a "whatever" since it'd be in the way for most oriental dancers.

>From Atira's fashions, Turkish-Macedonian vest:
http://www.atirasfashions.com/images/NO07A.GIF

Turkish-Arab vest (actually, this is also an old egyptian style):
http://www.atirasfashions.com/images/NO11A.GIF

Lee M.Thompson-Herbert        lee@retro.com	      KoX 1995, SP4
Head Muso, White Rats Morris, Faultline Morris
Member, Knights of Xenu (1995).  Chaos Monger and Jill of All Trades.
"A head-on collision between Morticia Adams and Martha Stewart"
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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Thu Aug 28 21:59:03 2003
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Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 18:58:27 -0700 (PDT)
From: Cascio Michael <rosenau5@yahoo.com>
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Subject: [h-cost] 
	Folkwear 151/synthetic suede help/Minbari costume help needed
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Hi all,
  Sorry for the crowded header but I need some help on
several things right now with a 3 day weekend coming
up.
  I'm making the hakama from Folkwear 151 out of
synthetic suede.  They're for my daughter for regular
school so the fabric she picked out is the choice and
that's as authentic as I need.  The synthetic suede is
about the same weight as the silk brocade we were
looking at so I think the weight will work but I have
never worked with synthetic suede before and need
HELP.  And I do mean everything from cutting and
pinning to seam allowances.  Do I lap the seams and
embroider them to hold them down or do I do right
sides together like a lighter weight fabric?  Has
anyone made the Folkwear 151 before and has any advice
on the making up?
  Same daughter wishes to be a Minbari for Halloween. 
She's been checking for stills on-line and I already
knew that the Minbari had an Oriental flair to their
clothing but I could use some help on how many layers,
what kind of neckline and overlaps and if anyone has
an official pattern or an unofficial pattern.  Would
any of the Folkwear patterns do and in what order
would they be worn?
  Thanks all for the help I'm sure I'll get.
                                    Cassandra

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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Thu Aug 28 23:45:27 2003
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From: "Lisa Sinervo" <Lisa-list@threadneedlest.com>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
References: <20030828192943.72466.qmail@web80104.mail.yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: order of the garter
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 20:46:50 -0700
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Thanks for these links, and Kate too!  The St. George-VA garter is
beautiful!  Your's is too small to see, as you said, but your group as a
whole looks to be of a very high quality.  What fun!  I made a couple of
tablet woven garters, plain though, as my first attempt at tablet weaving.
They were quite easy to do and didn't take all that long either.  I'll have
to look into 16th century garters now a bit more.

Thanks again,

Lisa Sinervo
www.ThrednedleStrete.com



----- Original Message -----
From: "Jennifer Fleury" <jenniferfleury@sbcglobal.net>
To: <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Thursday, August 28, 2003 12:29 PM
Subject: [h-cost] Re: order of the garter


> Lisa,
> here are a couple links about the order of the garter.  The first is
someone who makes them for sale-I saw one of them just last week at Long
Beach Faire.  The second is a link to the gallery section of my guild's
website.  The man in the first picture on the 2nd and 3rd rows is wearing a
garter made by me-neither of these pictures are closeups, unfortunately and
it's been worn to death so I don't dare take a photo until I've made him a
new one.  I hand-embroidered it and it only took a few hours.  The other men
who are wearing blue garters with gold fringe are wearing what is known as a
"boot garter" which is described as having been blue satin with gold fringe,
tied about the left knee on occasions when the KG is riding or wearing
boots.
>
> http://www.stgeorge-va.com/garter.htm
> http://www.guildofstaugustine.org/long_beach_2003_gallery.htm
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Jennifer Fleury
> Guild Master 2003-2004
> The Guild of St. Augustine
> www.guildofstaugustine.org
>
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume


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Hi,

Thanks for the information!
Now I can look for the colour I want and hunt for fabric :-)

Greetings,
        Deredere



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From: Deredere Galbraith <triade@kabelfoon.nl>
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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] French dress 1496-1498 corset or not/ Pattern?
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Hi,

Thank you all for the information.
We will make her dress with a fitted dress underneed and stiifen the 
overgown.

But I have still one question.
I found a pattern in a book from such a gown.
Origionally it is from the tailors book of Enns. It is a weird 
construktion and I wonder if it is right for this dress.

Dress
http://www.deredere.dds.nl/Tudor/Tudor.jpg
Pattern
http://www.deredere.dds.nl/Tudor/Enns.jpg

Greetings,
        Deredere


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From: "michaela" <thebruce@ihug.co.nz>
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] French dress 1496-1498 corset or not/ Pattern?
Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 21:50:11 +1200
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> But I have still one question.
> I found a pattern in a book from such a gown.
> Origionally it is from the tailors book of Enns. It is a weird
> construktion and I wonder if it is right for this dress.

Well it's from 1590 it says so I'm a bit confused;) Or was it a 1590s book
full of historical patterns.

I wouldn't use it. If you look at tapestries etc of the time the back of the
dresses are cut in two pieces a bodice and a skirt, and the skirt is usually
pleated (rather than gathered I mean). It's very similar to the cut I used
for my leyden dress:
http://costumes.glittersweet.com/leyden.htm

Except that mine opens centre front (and is a wide open front at that). I
cut my ca1500 blue dress (it's just cut out, not even close to be sewn)
using the pattern for my leyden dress actually. And the way I cut it is very
fabric conservative too;).

I am actually just waiting to be able to download some photos I took
yesterday of some pictures in books. One of which shows the back of a dress
like this (set in the same time but the tapestry was woven around 1510) and
the back has trim either side of the side back. I'm thinking these closed
front dresses are side back laced like where this trim sits.

The pattern also has pleats at each seam which I can't see in the painting
and a curved centre front, while the gown you want to do has a flat front
with no centre front seam.

Actually.. if you were to use it, it wouldn't be hard to adapt, just cut the
back piece into a skirt and bodice section and widen the skirt part so you
can pleat it. Then for the font you can put the centre front on the fold.
And alter the neckline of course. Oh the backs of the gowns I've seen so far
seem to be square. So that's different to my Leyden dress.

The sleeves are pretty good for some of those sleeves from dresses just a
few years later as they are that full. But for yours of course just trim
them a bit.

I need to fix the kirtle neckline and get new photos of it. I have my new
ties all done too.

Then again I need to work on my 1920s coat, my Anna Meyer Gown, my teal
Monster German Ren, my Pink Tudor.... and of course my Blue Flemish like
this one;)

> Dress
> http://www.deredere.dds.nl/Tudor/Tudor.jpg
> Pattern
> http://www.deredere.dds.nl/Tudor/Enns.jpg


michaela
http://costumes.glittersweet.com


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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Fri Aug 29 07:41:53 2003
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Folkwear 151/synthetic suede help/Minbari costume help
	needed
Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 06:43:40 -0500
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Hi,
    in answer to your second question, Folkwear has a Tibetan panel coat
that will work for the long sleeveless overrobe.
Genie H.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Cascio Michael" <rosenau5@yahoo.com>
To: <h-costume@net.indra.com>
Sent: Thursday, August 28, 2003 8:58 PM
Subject: [h-cost] Folkwear 151/synthetic suede help/Minbari costume help
needed


> Hi all,
>   Sorry for the crowded header but I need some help on
> several things right now with a 3 day weekend coming
> up.
>   I'm making the hakama from Folkwear 151 out of
> synthetic suede.  They're for my daughter for regular
> school so the fabric she picked out is the choice and
> that's as authentic as I need.  The synthetic suede is
> about the same weight as the silk brocade we were
> looking at so I think the weight will work but I have
> never worked with synthetic suede before and need
> HELP.  And I do mean everything from cutting and
> pinning to seam allowances.  Do I lap the seams and
> embroider them to hold them down or do I do right
> sides together like a lighter weight fabric?  Has
> anyone made the Folkwear 151 before and has any advice
> on the making up?
>   Same daughter wishes to be a Minbari for Halloween.
> She's been checking for stills on-line and I already
> knew that the Minbari had an Oriental flair to their
> clothing but I could use some help on how many layers,
> what kind of neckline and overlaps and if anyone has
> an official pattern or an unofficial pattern.  Would
> any of the Folkwear patterns do and in what order
> would they be worn?
>   Thanks all for the help I'm sure I'll get.
>                                     Cassandra
>
> __________________________________
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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Fri Aug 29 07:42:12 2003
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	<02b101c36dcd$ff530520$31baee0c@c59303a>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] simplicty #5359 - what is it?
Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 07:41:12 -0400
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Status: RO

Looks like pure fantasy to me--but I think I know what i will make for
Halloween!

Dianne
----- Original Message -----
From: "chiara" <chiara@io.com>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Thursday, August 28, 2003 9:36 PM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] simplicty #5359 - what is it?


> A better picture to dissect is :
> http://www.simplicity.com/designFrontBack.cfm?designId=8154
>
> where they take it apart in pieces and let you see it in its individual
> parts. From here you can easily see what it is.
> 1. A basic veil
> 2. A fringed shawl
> 3. A simple sleeveless cropped V-necked top
> 4. A simple cap sleeve cropped V-necked top with fringe cuffs and hem
> 5. A simple ruffled skirt
> 6. A sectioned skirt that is mid calf length
> 7. A laced up waist cincher
> 8. Harem pants
>
> Where do you find them all together like this?
>
> Ok, someone else take the lead on that one cause all I can think of is "I
> Dream of Jeanie", a pajama party (a really fun one that I want to go to
> right now with lots of rum!!!), and not much else.
>
> Chiara
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Claudine Wong" <claudine_on_the_net@yahoo.com>
> To: <h-costume@indra.com>
> Sent: Thursday, August 28, 2003 7:41 PM
> Subject: [h-cost] simplicty #5359 - what is it?
>
>
> : Hello everyone,
> :
> : I'm de-lurking for the first time because I'm sure
> : someone on the list can answer my question. Patterns
> : were on sale at Jo-ann, so I picked up this one:
> :
> : http://www.simplicity.com/assets/5359/5359.jpg
> :
> : I think the outfit on the left is really neat, but am
> : wondering what in real life it is based on. I did a
> : little searching on the web but haven't seen anything
> : that looks quite like this (ignoring the fabrics and
> : colors, I'm talking about he combination: puffy
> : panteloons, skirt, gathered blouse, vest, and
> : girdle-thingy). Have any of you seen such an outfit,
> : either historical or ethnic, or is it just fantasy?
> :
> :
> :
> :
> : Thanks bunches,
> : Claudine
> :
> : __________________________________
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> : Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software
> : http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com
> : _______________________________________________
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> : http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
>
> _______________________________________________
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From: "Genie" <kerowyn@mindspring.com>
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] simplicty #5359 - what is it?
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Hello,

I tend to think of this style as Hollywood Harem.  A vague nod to reality,
but more fantasy than actual clothing.  Take a look at Folkwear's Turkish
Dancer for something more accurate.

Genie H.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Claudine Wong" <claudine_on_the_net@yahoo.com>
To: <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Thursday, August 28, 2003 7:41 PM
Subject: [h-cost] simplicty #5359 - what is it?


> Hello everyone,
>
> I'm de-lurking for the first time because I'm sure
> someone on the list can answer my question. Patterns
> were on sale at Jo-ann, so I picked up this one:
>
> http://www.simplicity.com/assets/5359/5359.jpg
>
> I think the outfit on the left is really neat, but am
> wondering what in real life it is based on. I did a
> little searching on the web but haven't seen anything
> that looks quite like this (ignoring the fabrics and
> colors, I'm talking about he combination: puffy
> panteloons, skirt, gathered blouse, vest, and
> girdle-thingy). Have any of you seen such an outfit,
> either historical or ethnic, or is it just fantasy?
>
>
>
>
> Thanks bunches,
> Claudine
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software
> http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com
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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Fri Aug 29 09:37:08 2003
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Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 14:35:40 +0100 (BST)
From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Catalina=20Sanabria=20Rosado?= <ladyforbeys@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] simplicty #5359 - what is it?
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
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Oddly enough I haven't been able to find a pictures on
the web, but this closely resembles what someone
brought up on 'I dream of Jeannie' would make after
seeing a Gwazi style coat briefly. The Kameez or harem
pants are fairly historical. I'm pretty sure the Gwazi
coat has at least elbow length sleeves.


 --- Claudine Wong <claudine_on_the_net@yahoo.com>
wrote: > Hello everyone,
> 
> I'm de-lurking for the first time because I'm sure
> someone on the list can answer my question. Patterns
> were on sale at Jo-ann, so I picked up this one:
> 
> http://www.simplicity.com/assets/5359/5359.jpg
> 
> I think the outfit on the left is really neat, but
> am
> wondering what in real life it is based on. I did a
> little searching on the web but haven't seen
> anything
> that looks quite like this (ignoring the fabrics and
> colors, I'm talking about he combination: puffy
> panteloons, skirt, gathered blouse, vest, and
> girdle-thingy). Have any of you seen such an outfit,
> either historical or ethnic, or is it just fantasy?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks bunches,
> Claudine
> 
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site
> design software
> http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
>
http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costumeme@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume 

=====


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Subject: RE: [h-cost] simplicity #5359 - what is it?
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It's very reminiscent of the Victorian orientialist images of harem girls. I recently did an outfit based on those images -- my main sources were:

_Serpent of the Nile: Women and Dance in the Arab World_ by Wendy Buonaventura and Ibrahim Farrah 
_Women's Costume of the Near and Middle East_ by Jennifer Scarce 

There were a couple more, but I don't remember their titles, off hand...

The Victorian images are 90% fantasy, but they're very pretty! And they do have a tendency to mix all sorts of disparate elements, like the skirt, harem pants, bolero jacket, chemise/blouse thing shown in the simplicity pattern.
	-sunny

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Claudine Wong" <claudine_on_the_net@yahoo.com>
To: <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Thursday, August 28, 2003 5:41 PM
Subject: [h-cost] simplicty #5359 - what is it?


> Hello everyone,
> 
> I'm de-lurking for the first time because I'm sure
> someone on the list can answer my question. Patterns
> were on sale at Jo-ann, so I picked up this one:
> 
> http://www.simplicity.com/assets/5359/5359.jpg
> 
> I think the outfit on the left is really neat, but am
> wondering what in real life it is based on. I did a
> little searching on the web but haven't seen anything
> that looks quite like this (ignoring the fabrics and
> colors, I'm talking about he combination: puffy
> panteloons, skirt, gathered blouse, vest, and
> girdle-thingy). Have any of you seen such an outfit,
> either historical or ethnic, or is it just fantasy? 

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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Fri Aug 29 17:06:14 2003
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Thread-Topic: More info on Muzzarelli's _Guardaroba medievale_
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From: "Colleen McDonald" <Colleen.McDonald@mackie.com>
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Subject: [h-cost] More info on Muzzarelli's _Guardaroba medievale_
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Hi everyone,

I have a copy of Maria Giuseppina Muzzarelli's _Guardaroba medieval: vesti E societa dal XIII al XVI secolo_ (Bologna: Il Mulino, 1999 ISBN 88-15-07128-8).  I think it was Jean in the UK who was asking for more information.

The book is in Italian and as far as I can tell, it has not been translated into English.  Ms. Muzzarelli is on the faculty in the department of Letters and Philosophy at the University of Bologna.  

Here's the description in English (which I think Jadran Kale already sent to the list):
This volume describes the history of clothing in the Middle Ages, both in its material nature and in its social uses, the meanings which society then attributed to garments. On the basis of notaries' inventories, shopping lists and other documents of the era, the author illustrates - in a series of authentic cases - the composition of men and women's medieval wardrobes. Types and quantities of attire reveal the various social groups' characteristics. Vivid descriptions allow the reader to experience the processes concerning the production and commerce of clothes, from the shops of craftsmen (dyers, silk-weavers, tanners, shoemakers, tailors) to garment vendors and haberdashers. Special emphasis is placed on the social use of dress: how people dressed on different occasions, how clothes confirmed social status differences, and how the Church and the law attempted (with little success) to place limits on luxury.

The chapter titles are:
Introduzione
1.  Nei cofani
2.  Nelle case bolognesi
3.  Nelle botteghe
4.  Vesti e comportamenti
Glossario (of clothing terms)
Indice del luoghi (Index of places)
Indice dei nomi (Index of names)

There are only 19 black and white pictures in the book - grouped together in the center.

There is no bibliography, but the book is heavily footnoted throughout.  Based on a scan of the sub-headings and the text, it appears that the book focuses on Italy alone. (My reading skills in Italian are not strong - I usually do anything major work with dictionary and translation program nearby.)

Given that the footnotes include books on dress in medieval Sicily, ornaments and objects of use in dress in Ravenna inventories of the 14th and 15th centuries, costume and society in Rimini in the 15th century, and inventories of Giulia Leoncini (courtesan in Venice) in the 16th century (to name just a few), I've ordered my own copy of the book for further work in the future.

It is available from the publisher for 23 euro (not including shipping and handling).  Here a link to the site if folks are interested:

http://www.mulino.it/edizioni/volumi/ricerca.php?autore=Muzzarelli&titolo=&id_collana=&id_argomento=0&id_sottoargomento=0&anno=&submit=Ricerca

If that doesn't work, go to http://www.mulino.it/edizioni/index.html and click on the "shop" icon.  To search, click on "nuova ricera" and enter the title or the author's name.

I hope this is helpful to folks.

Best regards,

Colleen





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Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 21:57:39 +0100
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Jean Waddie <anne@montgomerie.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] simplicty #5359 - what is it?
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You do sometimes see people wearing kameez with a very long, full 
skirted dress - when I say long I mean below the knee, but still showing 
the trousers.  But I would think any traditional costume that favoured 
trousers covered by skirt would avoid tight shaping and bare skin on the 
torso.  Fantasy harem, I think!

Jean


Claudine Wong <claudine_on_the_net@yahoo.com> wrote
>Hello everyone,
>
>I'm de-lurking for the first time because I'm sure
>someone on the list can answer my question. Patterns
>were on sale at Jo-ann, so I picked up this one:
>
>http://www.simplicity.com/assets/5359/5359.jpg
>
>I think the outfit on the left is really neat, but am
>wondering what in real life it is based on. I did a
>little searching on the web but haven't seen anything
>that looks quite like this (ignoring the fabrics and
>colors, I'm talking about he combination: puffy
>panteloons, skirt, gathered blouse, vest, and
>girdle-thingy). Have any of you seen such an outfit,
>either historical or ethnic, or is it just fantasy?
>
>
>
>
>Thanks bunches,
>Claudine
>
>__________________________________
>Do you Yahoo!?
>Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software
>http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com
>_______________________________________________
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-- 
Jean Waddie
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From: "Saragrace T. Knauf" <saragrace@earthlink.net>
To: "'Historical Costume'" <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: RE: [h-cost] French dress 1496-1498 corset or not/ Pattern?
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I think what you are seeing as weird are the 'extentions' at the waist which
I believe are to be pleated back into the size of the waist.   In your
picture you can't really see the waist so it is up to conjecture whether
that is correct or not.  I have seen these types of gowns in pictures but do
not remember if there are correct for your period and place.  Also the
neckline is obviously not correct.  I am currious about the pieces called
"mouw'"  Are those supposed to be sleeves which are already sewn up?  Thanks
for sharing a very cool thing...

Sg

-----Original Message-----
From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com] On
Behalf Of Deredere Galbraith
Sent: Friday, August 29, 2003 12:26 AM
To: Historical Costume
Subject: Re: [h-cost] French dress 1496-1498 corset or not/ Pattern?


Hi,

Thank you all for the information.
We will make her dress with a fitted dress underneed and stiifen the 
overgown.

But I have still one question.
I found a pattern in a book from such a gown.
Origionally it is from the tailors book of Enns. It is a weird 
construktion and I wonder if it is right for this dress.

Dress
http://www.deredere.dds.nl/Tudor/Tudor.jpg
Pattern
http://www.deredere.dds.nl/Tudor/Enns.jpg

Greetings,
        Deredere


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From: Kimiko Small <kimiko@kimiko1.com>
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Subject: [h-cost] Costume College 2003 photos
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Hi

Ok, I admit it, I had these available a few weeks ago, and only now got 
around to putting these online. I can say it is because I have a one year 
old that takes up my time, but it's also because I almost forgot about 
them, and I took five rolls of film!

Costume College 2003 Photo Album:
http://www.kimiko1.com/CC2003/index.htm

Not all the photos I took are online, just the ones of various people from 
instructors to a few hall photos, to Orientation photos of the CC Staff, to 
many from the Gala event that were taken on the "red carpet", and the 
costumes that were in the SF/F display. Unfortunately, I don't know most of 
the people, so I didn't try to put names to them all, except for the 
instructors which I took from the Programming guidebook and a few others. 
If you recognize yourself, or recognize someone else, let me know and I 
will update the images with their names, with permission. I know some 
people would rather remain anonymous.

Feel free to forwarding this message to others who may be interested. And 
if you have an online page of photos, I would love to link to them from my 
album. If there are any problems with either the photos or the web pages, 
please email me privately, and I will adjust as I can.

Kimiko Small
Costumer, Fiber Artist, Web Designer, Wife and Mother
kimiko@kimiko1.com; http://www.kimiko1.com
"When there is fear, there is no creativity" ~ C. Lowell

Graphic Intern at Costume Gallery
http://www.costumegallery.com

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From: "Ray Nevin" <nevray@netspace.net.au>
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Subject: [h-cost] Simplicyt Pattern Website/ Victorian Patterns
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Whilst poking around on the simplicity website, I found some transcripts for
chat sessions with "Martha McCain - the Fashion Historian" who talks about
sources, ideas etc from which she created the victorian (american civil war)
patterns for simplicity (and some hints on making up as well).
For those who are interested
http://www.simplicity.com/section/chat/martha_aug_14.htm
http://www.simplicity.com/section/chat/martha_july_24.htm

Sharon Nevin

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From: Karen Heim <axejudge@accessus.net>
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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Costume College 2003 photos
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I saw one picture where the lady had an absolutely lovely dress - and 
then did nothing with her hair. ;-(  I don't like to put my hair up, I 
admit; it changes the way the weight sits on my head, and I get a 
neckache after a while, but I do it because the outfit looks, well, 
*wrong* if I don't.

Karen

Kimiko Small wrote:

> Hi
>
> Ok, I admit it, I had these available a few weeks ago, and only now 
> got around to putting these online. I can say it is because I have a 
> one year old that takes up my time, but it's also because I almost 
> forgot about them, and I took five rolls of film!
>
> Costume College 2003 Photo Album:
> http://www.kimiko1.com/CC2003/index.htm
>
>


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http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/3181443.stm
**********************
Rebecca Schmitt
aka Agnes Cabot, wife of Master Peter Cabot
BRF FOF; Guilde of St. Lawrence

A room without books is like a body without a soul
---Cicero

lotsofteapots@charter.net
**********************

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Subject: [h-cost] corsets and ferrets
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I tried to resist, but I simply had to share this.  A political sketch 
writer (Glasgow Herald) described trying to pin Tony Blair down to a 
straight answer as
"like trying to fasten a corset round a buttered ferret".

I leave it to your imagination how he knew!

Jean
-- 
Jean Waddie
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From: "Lisa Sinervo" <Lisa-list@threadneedlest.com>
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Subject: [h-cost] 16th century Iron Plate corsets
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Status: RO

I suppose most of you have seen the extant iron corset (16th or 17th c? I'm getting old my memory is going!) and read the speculation as to whether it might have been an orthopedic devise and not an everyday corset.  Well, I've just come across a quote from Montaigne's Essays - 1603 mentioning "yron-plates" (not corsets though)  to slender the waist.

"I have seen them swallow gravell, ashes, coales, dust, tallow, candles, and for the nonce, labour and toyle themselves to spoil their stomache, only to get a pal-bleake colour.  To become slender in wast, and to have a straight spangolized body, what pinching, what girding, what cingling will they no indure; yea someimtes with yron-plates, with whale-bones and other such trash..."

The gravel, ashes, coals eating sounds like Pica.

Lisa Sinervo
Thrednedle Strete Clothiers
www.ThrednedleStrete.com



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Subject: Re: [h-cost] 16th century Iron Plate corsets
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oh, I guess straightening the body is included, could still be orthepedic.
Has any one ever run across any references for metal being used in corsets?
for this time period?

Lisa


----- Original Message -----
From: "Lisa Sinervo" <Lisa-list@threadneedlest.com>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Saturday, August 30, 2003 9:22 AM
Subject: [h-cost] 16th century Iron Plate corsets


I suppose most of you have seen the extant iron corset (16th or 17th c? I'm
getting old my memory is going!) and read the speculation as to whether it
might have been an orthopedic devise and not an everyday corset.  Well, I've
just come across a quote from Montaigne's Essays - 1603 mentioning
"yron-plates" (not corsets though)  to slender the waist.

"I have seen them swallow gravell, ashes, coales, dust, tallow, candles, and
for the nonce, labour and toyle themselves to spoil their stomache, only to
get a pal-bleake colour.  To become slender in wast, and to have a straight
spangolized body, what pinching, what girding, what cingling will they no
indure; yea someimtes with yron-plates, with whale-bones and other such
trash..."

The gravel, ashes, coals eating sounds like Pica.

Lisa Sinervo
Thrednedle Strete Clothiers
www.ThrednedleStrete.com



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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Sat Aug 30 14:14:12 2003
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Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2003 13:13:31 -0500 (CDT)
From: Emma Elizabeth Lehman <00217146@bigred.unl.edu>
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Subject: [h-cost] Elizabethan arched brim hat
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I'm nearly finished with my arched-brim hat to match my nearly finished
doublet and kirtle, and I've run into a wee snag:

My boyfriend looked at it and said "Cool hat.  Where did you get the
design for it?"

Well, I've seen them all over, right?  Everybody has one.  The problem is
I can only remember seeing them on modern people in very spiff garb.  Can
anyone point me at documentation for this hat?  I'd hate to think I'd put
all this time and effort into a hat that's a renfaire creation, but I'm
just not seeing them in portraiture.

Any help would be greatly appreciated!

Emma

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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Elizabethan arched brim hat
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do you have a photo of your hat for comparison?

Lisa

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Emma Elizabeth Lehman" <00217146@bigred.unl.edu>
To: <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Saturday, August 30, 2003 11:13 AM
Subject: [h-cost] Elizabethan arched brim hat


> 
> I'm nearly finished with my arched-brim hat to match my nearly finished
> doublet and kirtle, and I've run into a wee snag:
> 
> My boyfriend looked at it and said "Cool hat.  Where did you get the
> design for it?"
> 
> Well, I've seen them all over, right?  Everybody has one.  The problem is
> I can only remember seeing them on modern people in very spiff garb.  Can
> anyone point me at documentation for this hat?  I'd hate to think I'd put
> all this time and effort into a hat that's a renfaire creation, but I'm
> just not seeing them in portraiture.
> 
> Any help would be greatly appreciated!
> 
> Emma
> 
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume


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From: KATHRYN WOLTERS <albrakat7@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] corsets and ferrets
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
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giggle--the 'visuals' are very amusing:)
thanks for sharing, Jean---
Albra

Jean Waddie <anne@montgomerie.demon.co.uk> wrote:
I tried to resist, but I simply had to share this. A political sketch 
writer (Glasgow Herald) described trying to pin Tony Blair down to a 
straight answer as
"like trying to fasten a corset round a buttered ferret".

I leave it to your imagination how he knew!

Jean
-- 
Jean Waddie
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Elizabethan arched brim hat
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Yeah, that would help.  I'm not exactly sure what Emma means by an
"arched brim."
--sue

Lisa Sinervo wrote:
> 
> do you have a photo of your hat for comparison?
> 
> Lisa
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Emma Elizabeth Lehman" <00217146@bigred.unl.edu>
> To: <h-costume@indra.com>
> Sent: Saturday, August 30, 2003 11:13 AM
> Subject: [h-cost] Elizabethan arched brim hat
> 
> >
> > I'm nearly finished with my arched-brim hat to match my nearly finished
> > doublet and kirtle, and I've run into a wee snag:
> >
> > My boyfriend looked at it and said "Cool hat.  Where did you get the
> > design for it?"
> >
> > Well, I've seen them all over, right?  Everybody has one.  The problem is
> > I can only remember seeing them on modern people in very spiff garb.  Can
> > anyone point me at documentation for this hat?  I'd hate to think I'd put
> > all this time and effort into a hat that's a renfaire creation, but I'm
> > just not seeing them in portraiture.
> >
> > Any help would be greatly appreciated!
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Greetings,

I remember seeing one recently on a woman in a miniature - I believe it is 
held in the V & A but IIRC, it is also post 1600.  Have a look at books on 
British miniatures and you should be able to find it fairly easily.

Cheers,
Danielle

At 01:13 PM 8/30/2003 -0500, you wrote:

>I'm nearly finished with my arched-brim hat to match my nearly finished
>doublet and kirtle, and I've run into a wee snag:
>
>My boyfriend looked at it and said "Cool hat.  Where did you get the
>design for it?"
>
>Well, I've seen them all over, right?  Everybody has one.  The problem is
>I can only remember seeing them on modern people in very spiff garb.  Can
>anyone point me at documentation for this hat?  I'd hate to think I'd put
>all this time and effort into a hat that's a renfaire creation, but I'm
>just not seeing them in portraiture.
>
>Any help would be greatly appreciated!
>
>Emma

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Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2003 16:16:02 -0700
From: Kimiko Small <kimiko@kimiko1.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Elizabethan arched brim hat
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At 01:13 PM 8/30/2003 -0500, you wrote:
>Well, I've seen them all over, right?  Everybody has one.  The problem is
>I can only remember seeing them on modern people in very spiff garb.  Can
>anyone point me at documentation for this hat?  I'd hate to think I'd put
>all this time and effort into a hat that's a renfaire creation, but I'm
>just not seeing them in portraiture.


Not sure if this is what you mean by arched hat, but it was what I was 
thinking of.
http://www.tudor-portraits.com/UnknownLady11.jpg
The lady on the far right.

If you mean something else, than please share what you have been working on.

Kimiko



Kimiko Small
Costumer, Fiber Artist, Web Designer, Wife and Mother
kimiko@kimiko1.com; http://www.kimiko1.com
"When there is fear, there is no creativity" ~ C. Lowell

Graphic Intern at Costume Gallery
http://www.costumegallery.com

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Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2003 19:00:49 -0500 (CDT)
From: Emma Elizabeth Lehman <00217146@bigred.unl.edu>
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Elizabethan arched brim hat
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No, not yet, but it's similar to those Lynn McMasters makes:
http://www.lynnmcmasters.com/hatsarched.html
Maybe my brim isn't quite as arched.

Emma

On Sat, 30 Aug 2003, Lisa Sinervo wrote:

> do you have a photo of your hat for comparison?
>
> Lisa
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Emma Elizabeth Lehman" <00217146@bigred.unl.edu>
> >
> > I'm nearly finished with my arched-brim hat to match my nearly finished
> > doublet and kirtle, and I've run into a wee snag:
> >
> > My boyfriend looked at it and said "Cool hat.  Where did you get the
> > design for it?"
> >
> > Well, I've seen them all over, right?  Everybody has one.  The problem is
> > I can only remember seeing them on modern people in very spiff garb.  Can
> > anyone point me at documentation for this hat?  I'd hate to think I'd put
> > all this time and effort into a hat that's a renfaire creation, but I'm
> > just not seeing them in portraiture.
> >
> > Any help would be greatly appreciated!

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From: Emma Elizabeth Lehman <00217146@bigred.unl.edu>
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Elizabethan arched brim hat
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No, not yet, but it's similar to those Lynn McMasters makes:
http://www.lynnmcmasters.com/hatsarched.html
Maybe my brim isn't quite as arched.

Emma

On Sat, 30 Aug 2003, Lisa Sinervo wrote:

> do you have a photo of your hat for comparison?
>
> Lisa
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Emma Elizabeth Lehman" <00217146@bigred.unl.edu>
> >
> > I'm nearly finished with my arched-brim hat to match my nearly finished
> > doublet and kirtle, and I've run into a wee snag:
> >
> > My boyfriend looked at it and said "Cool hat.  Where did you get the
> > design for it?"
> >
> > Well, I've seen them all over, right?  Everybody has one.  The problem is
> > I can only remember seeing them on modern people in very spiff garb.  Can
> > anyone point me at documentation for this hat?  I'd hate to think I'd put
> > all this time and effort into a hat that's a renfaire creation, but I'm
> > just not seeing them in portraiture.
> >
> > Any help would be greatly appreciated!

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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Elizabethan arched brim hat
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Looks like http://www.thrednedlestrete.com/morse/p64.htm or
http://www.thrednedlestrete.com/morse/p96.htm  Nice hat too!  The hat on p96
has a rounded top though.


Lisa Sinervo

----- Original Message -----
From: "Emma Elizabeth Lehman" <00217146@bigred.unl.edu>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Saturday, August 30, 2003 5:00 PM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Elizabethan arched brim hat


>
> No, not yet, but it's similar to those Lynn McMasters makes:
> http://www.lynnmcmasters.com/hatsarched.html
> Maybe my brim isn't quite as arched.
>
> Emma
>



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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Elizabethan arched brim hat
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Emma wrote:
> Well, I've seen them all over, right?  Everybody has one.  The problem is
> I can only remember seeing them on modern people in very spiff garb.  Can
> anyone point me at documentation for this hat?  I'd hate to think I'd put
> all this time and effort into a hat that's a renfaire creation, but I'm
> just not seeing them in portraiture.

The only *woman* I can think of off-hand is the lower class woman in Lucas
de Heere's sketch:
http://elizabethangeek.com/costumereview/image.mhtml?image_id=10

For men, see:

http://elizabethangeek.com/costumereview/image.mhtml?image_id=75
http://elizabethangeek.com/costumereview/image.mhtml?image_id=42
http://elizabethangeek.com/costumereview/image.mhtml?image_id=59

Yours,

Kirrily/Katherine
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Slightly better images are here
http://www.thrednedlestrete.com/bulletinboard.htm  with just the hats.

Lisa

----- Original Message -----
From: "Emma Elizabeth Lehman" <00217146@bigred.unl.edu>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Sent: Saturday, August 30, 2003 5:00 PM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Elizabethan arched brim hat


>
> No, not yet, but it's similar to those Lynn McMasters makes:
> http://www.lynnmcmasters.com/hatsarched.html
> Maybe my brim isn't quite as arched.
>
> Emma
>



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Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2003 22:33:55 -0500
From: Charlene Charette <perronnelle@earthlink.net>
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Subject: [h-cost] northern US cotton mills, ca 1880-1930
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This is slightly off-topic.  I know that people on this list have varied 
interests in the textile arts and I hope someone can help.  I've been 
working on my genealogy and in the late 19th, early 20th century most of 
my family worked in the cotton mills in Biddeford, Maine.  Many of them 
immigrated from Canada where they were farmers.

Can anyone recommend a good reference on these cotton mills?  I've found 
a couple of web sites, but they are too general.  While I'd like to 
learn all I can about this era, currently I'm most interested in the 
various jobs.  I still haven't figured out some of the jobs listed on 
the 1930 US census.  I do know now what doffers and jack twisters were. 
  :-)  I've inherited some of the bobbins (still full) used in the 
mills.  History come to life, as it were.

Thanks,
--Charlene

-- 
Don't use the name of the Lord in vain:  Make sure whoever you're 
swearing at sees every gesture and hears every word.  -- Raymond Lesser, 
20 Things I Learned from God (or voices inside myhead, I'm not sure 
which, yet)

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Subject: Re: [h-cost] 16th century Iron Plate corsets
Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 15:48:39 +1200
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> oh, I guess straightening the body is included, could still be orthepedic.
> Has any one ever run across any references for metal being used in
corsets?
> for this time period?

I know Valerie Steele did find some document of a surgeon of the 16thC who
recommended iron stays for orthopaedic reasons. He also advocated using
metal for limbs etc so it was really just an extention of that idea.

Big chunk of text here from:
http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/story.hts/ae/books/ch1/1153123
The Corset
A Cultural History

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
By Valerie Steele
Yale University Press

There do exist in museum collections certain notorious iron corsets, which
are usually dated to about 1580 to 1600. But were they really the first
fashionable corsets? Modern scholars who have examined them tend to believe
that these metal corsets were probably orthopedic devices designed to
correct spinal deformities - "when they are not, as is commonly the case,
fanciful 'reproductions'. There is no evidence that they were worn by women
as stays." Instead, it seems that two types of corsets appeared in the
sixteenth century: fashionable corsets created by tailors, which sometimes
incorporated metal as well as whalebone stays, and orthopedic corsets
constructed from plates of perforated metal, hinged at the sides, which were
used by surgeons.
    Ambroise Par (c. 1510-90), a French army surgeon who became famous for
reforming and modernizing the practice of surgery, described these metal
corsets in his work, stating that they were used "to amend the crookednesse
of the Bodie." "In order to correct and to hide such a defect, they will be
made to wear iron corsets, which shall be full of holes so that they will
not be so heavy, and they will be well fitted and padded so as not to hurt
at all, and will be changed often if the patient ... [is] still growing."
Par also suggested metal boots to straighten a crooked leg. According to
him, some deformities were congenital, others the result of accidents. In
addition, he believed that some girls became "hunched and deformed from
having had their bodies too tightly bound," and he complained that mothers
put their girls in tight clothes "with the aim of making their waists
smaller." Although Par was a critic of fashionable corsetry, which he
thought carried the risk of deformity by incorrect or excessive binding, he
was an advocate of orthopedic corsets. Metal corsets were still sometimes
recommended in the eighteenth century to correct crooked spines, although
canvas stays were more commonly used (for example, by Alexander Pope); and,
indeed, orthopedic corsetry continues to be used by doctors today as part of
the treatment for scoliosis.

    Accounts and illustrations of iron corsets seem to have resulted in the
production of modern replicas or forgeries, just as we see with accounts of
medieval chastity belts. The Museum at the Fashion Institute of Technology,
for example, owns a metal corset that looks suspiciously similar to the one
illustrated in The Corset and the Crinoline. Madame Kayne, a fetish
corsetiere of the 1930s, apparently owned a metal corset, and Cathy Jung, a
modern tight-lacer, has a silver corset or, more correctly, an over-corset,
since, like all such metal devices, it cannot be tightened and must be worn
over a laced corset. Such oddities notwithstanding, the factual history of
corsetry is interesting enough without recourse to fantasies about women
imprisoned in metal corsets.





hope that's of interest.

michaela
http://costumes.glittersweet.com



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From: "chiara" <chiara@io.com>
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Subject: [h-cost] VMA's was simplicity #5359
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Beyonc wore these incredible Capri harem pants at the VMA's this week for
her performance on stage where she did a short Indian intro to her number
one hit single. Has anyone gotten a list of who made the costumes for some
of the performers? These Capri's were beautifully embroidered with what
looked like gold thread. What is the time period for this design of harem
pants?

Chiara

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Subject: Re: [h-cost] northern US cotton mills, ca 1880-1930
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In a message dated 8/30/2003 8:35:20 PM Pacific Standard Time, 
perronnelle@earthlink.net writes:
Can anyone recommend a good reference on these cotton mills?
One place you might try is the National Cotton Council.  Sorry I'm not more 
helpful.
Darla
(Who worked in cotton merchandising for twelve years.)
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Elizabethan arched brim hat
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>
> I'm nearly finished with my arched-brim hat to match my nearly finished
> doublet and kirtle, and I've run into a wee snag:

Just my two cents but....Most portraits were done indoors with a person
wearing their finest clothing, right?  Finding outdoor wear or more casual
wear for Elizabethans would be more difficult to come by.  If you can
think of any outdoor hunting scenes or similar outdoor group scenes, try
those.

Good luck!

Diana


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From: Deredere Galbraith <triade@kabelfoon.nl>
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  Hi,

I was looking at some websites for patterns for a 1885 dress but I can 
only find seperate patterns, like a bodice pattern, skirt pattern.....
And if I calculate the price for a complete dress it will cost about $90.
Are there any books with patterns for dresses?
At least someting less expensive than buying al those seperate patterns.
I have Janet Arnolds patterns of fashion but find the patterns difficult 
to understand.

And I foud some booktitles and I was wondering wich of those are worth 
buying

Full-Colored Victorian Fashions
Joanne Olian

The History of Underclothes 
<http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0486271242/lyndaslostleaves>
C. Willett Cunnington 
<http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-handle-url/index=books&field-author=Cunnington%2C%20C.%20Willett/103-5524798-1515819>, 
Phillis Cunnington 
<http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-handle-url/index=books&field-author=Cunnington%2C%20Phillis/103-5524798-1515819>, 
Phyllis Cunnington 
<http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-handle-url/index=books&field-author=Cunnington%2C%20Phyllis/103-5524798-1515819> 


LA Mode Illustree : Fashion Plates in Full Color 
<http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0486298191/lyndaslostleaves>
Florence Leniston

Metropolitan Fashions of the 1880s: From the 1885 Butterick Catalog

Victorian Fashions 1880-1890 Vol 1 
<http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0875883095/lyndaslostleaves>

Greetings,
        Deredere
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Charlene,  I suggest that you try the American Textile History Museum
491 Dutton Street   Lowell, MA 01854   Tel: 978-441-0400.  Currently
they do not have an e-mail address!  At least not one that I could find.
Good luck , Margaret Baird

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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
From: Jean Waddie <anne@montgomerie.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Elizabethan arched brim hat
References: <Pine.OSF.4.33.0308301308230.312260-100000@bigred.unl.edu>
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There's a beauty in the Visual History of Costume, 16th century, p.105 - 
a funeral brass of "Thomas Inwood, his three wives and children, 1586". 
All three wives are wearing very arched-brim hats, over coifs.  The text 
says that this style is found in lots of funeral brasses of the period.

For upper classes, here's Lady Kytson, 1573:
  http://www.tate.org.uk/servlet/ViewWork?workid=5554&roomid=2147

Jean

Emma Elizabeth Lehman <00217146@bigred.unl.edu> wrote
>
>I'm nearly finished with my arched-brim hat to match my nearly finished
>doublet and kirtle, and I've run into a wee snag:
>
>My boyfriend looked at it and said "Cool hat.  Where did you get the
>design for it?"
>
>Well, I've seen them all over, right?  Everybody has one.  The problem is
>I can only remember seeing them on modern people in very spiff garb.  Can
>anyone point me at documentation for this hat?  I'd hate to think I'd put
>all this time and effort into a hat that's a renfaire creation, but I'm
>just not seeing them in portraiture.
>
>Any help would be greatly appreciated!
>
>Emma
>
>_______________________________________________
>h-costume mailing list
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-- 
Jean Waddie
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] 1885 dress pattern? Books?
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In a message dated 8/31/2003 5:52:59 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
triade@kabelfoon.nl writes:

> I have Janet Arnolds patterns of fashion but find the patterns difficult 
> to understand.
> 

This is because, in the bustle gowns, the overskirts are draped. This is 
usually done by actually draping a piece of fabric on a dress dummy over the 
correct underpinnings. When you lay this thing out it looks very complicated. 

Look at the bodice and foundation skirt patterns. See they aren't too 
complicated....though the bodice has many pieces. It's usually the draped overskirt, 
with bizarre pleats and tapes tacked at certain points to pull up the skirt, 
that gets real confusing.

A bustle IS a complicated thing, but not as bad as it looks at 1st. Try 
making one up in muslin...maybe 1/2 scale.
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From: "Saragrace T. Knauf" <saragrace@earthlink.net>
To: "'Historical Costume'" <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: RE: [h-cost] Elizabethan arched brim hat
Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 09:00:00 -0700
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Wow, I didn't realize that the woman's hats got this exaggerated!  I can't
imagine walking around with that thing on my head!

For upper classes, here's Lady Kytson, 1573:
  http://www.tate.org.uk/servlet/ViewWork?workid=5554&roomid=2147



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From: "Kim Baird" <kbaird@cableone.net>
To: "'Historical Costume'" <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: RE: [h-cost] 1885 dress pattern? Books?
Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 11:49:36 -0500
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The patterns are in two pieces because the dresses were almost always in
2 pieces!

There is one pattern for a one-piece dress:
http://www.pastpatterns.com/903.html

Kim

-----Original Message-----
From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com]
On Behalf Of Deredere Galbraith
Sent: Sunday, August 31, 2003 4:52 AM
To: H-Costume
Subject: [h-cost] 1885 dress pattern? Books?

  Hi,

I was looking at some websites for patterns for a 1885 dress but I can 
only find seperate patterns, like a bodice pattern, skirt pattern.....
And if I calculate the price for a complete dress it will cost about
$90.
Are there any books with patterns for dresses?
At least someting less expensive than buying al those seperate patterns.
I have Janet Arnolds patterns of fashion but find the patterns difficult

to understand.

And I foud some booktitles and I was wondering wich of those are worth 
buying

Full-Colored Victorian Fashions
Joanne Olian

The History of Underclothes 
<http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0486271242/lyndaslostleaves>
C. Willett Cunnington 
<http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-handle-url/index=books&field-a
uthor=Cunnington%2C%20C.%20Willett/103-5524798-1515819>, 
Phillis Cunnington 
<http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-handle-url/index=books&field-a
uthor=Cunnington%2C%20Phillis/103-5524798-1515819>, 
Phyllis Cunnington 
<http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-handle-url/index=books&field-a
uthor=Cunnington%2C%20Phyllis/103-5524798-1515819> 


LA Mode Illustree : Fashion Plates in Full Color 
<http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0486298191/lyndaslostleaves>
Florence Leniston

Metropolitan Fashions of the 1880s: From the 1885 Butterick Catalog

Victorian Fashions 1880-1890 Vol 1 
<http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0875883095/lyndaslostleaves>

Greetings,
        Deredere
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From: Sheryl Nance-Durst <sherylnd@kc.rr.com>
Subject: [h-cost] suspender parts
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Was it on this list that someone was asking for
parts to make men's suspenders? (If not, then
just ignore the following.)

If so, my Newark Dressmaker Supply catalog
just came and they sell them.

Sheryl Nance-Durst

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thank you!


On Sunday, August 31, 2003, at 10:28 AM, Sheryl Nance-Durst wrote:

> Was it on this list that someone was asking for
> parts to make men's suspenders? (If not, then
> just ignore the following.)
>
> If so, my Newark Dressmaker Supply catalog
> just came and they sell them.
>
> Sheryl Nance-Durst
>
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Sun Aug 31 17:26:48 2003
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From: "Wanda Pease" <wandap@hevanet.com>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: RE: [h-cost] Elizabethan arched brim hat
Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 14:27:35 -0700
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The answer is that they didn't _work_ in them.  They wore then for special.
Rather like your Grandmother (or Great-Grandmother) had her Sunday hat.
Many of my southern friends remember when their mothers (50's era) always
put on their hat and possibly gloves before leaving the house to go shopping
or certainly out for the day.  It "finished" their outfit and said they were
a "lady", and not a "worker".

Regina

>
> Wow, I didn't realize that the woman's hats got this exaggerated!  I can't
> imagine walking around with that thing on my head!
>
> For upper classes, here's Lady Kytson, 1573:
>   http://www.tate.org.uk/servlet/ViewWork?workid=5554&roomid=2147
>
>


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From: "Nancy Kiel" <nancy_kiel@hotmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [h-cost] Early plaid?
Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 18:10:54 -0400
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In Rogier van der Weyden's Crucifixtion in a Church, c 1445, center of Altar 
of the Seven Sacraments, the woman behind the cross appears to have a 
"plaid" lining to her over-dress.  (The plaid is very open, so could be 
considered a check?)  Has anyone seen anything similar in other paintings?  
I always associate plaids with Scotland, of course.



Nancy Kiel
nancy_kiel@hotmail.com
Never tease a weasel!
This is very good advice.
For the weasel will not like it
And teasing isn't nice.

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From h-costume-bounces@indra.com  Sun Aug 31 18:20:45 2003
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From: "Saragrace T. Knauf" <saragrace@earthlink.net>
To: "'Historical Costume'" <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: RE: [h-cost] Early plaid?
Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 15:20:02 -0700
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There have been some plaids found as far away as China-they were found on
'white' (as opposed to Asian mummies).  I don't remember how old they
were...but I think they were earlier.  I was surprised to find some plaids
and checks on Flemish men's 'pants'.  It was a little later and the artists
depiction of them were 'loose', where as the realism in the rest of the
painting was more definite, in this painting it looked as if they had been
put in in a hurry.  

I know there are others on this list with stronger textile backgrounds and
will be able to provide more specific dates.  I think in general though the
checks and plaids were an easy extension of stripes in the weaving process
and were fairly ubiquitous.

-----Original Message-----
From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com] On
Behalf Of Nancy Kiel
Sent: Sunday, August 31, 2003 3:11 PM
To: h-costume@indra.com
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Early plaid?

In Rogier van der Weyden's Crucifixtion in a Church, c 1445, center of Altar

of the Seven Sacraments, the woman behind the cross appears to have a 
"plaid" lining to her over-dress.  (The plaid is very open, so could be 
considered a check?)  Has anyone seen anything similar in other paintings?  
I always associate plaids with Scotland, of course.



Nancy Kiel
nancy_kiel@hotmail.com
Never tease a weasel!
This is very good advice.
For the weasel will not like it
And teasing isn't nice.

_________________________________________________________________
Get MSN 8 and enjoy automatic e-mail virus protection.    
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus

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I don't know how popular they were in the 1400's, but plaids have
existed since at least 2000 BC

Kim

-----Original Message-----
From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com]
On Behalf Of Nancy Kiel
Sent: Sunday, August 31, 2003 5:11 PM
To: h-costume@indra.com
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Early plaid?

In Rogier van der Weyden's Crucifixtion in a Church, c 1445, center of
Altar 
of the Seven Sacraments, the woman behind the cross appears to have a 
"plaid" lining to her over-dress.  (The plaid is very open, so could be 
considered a check?)  Has anyone seen anything similar in other
paintings?  
I always associate plaids with Scotland, of course.



Nancy Kiel
nancy_kiel@hotmail.com
Never tease a weasel!
This is very good advice.
For the weasel will not like it
And teasing isn't nice.

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From: Robin Netherton <robin@shell.nightowl.net>
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Early plaid?
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On Sun, 31 Aug 2003, Nancy Kiel wrote:

> In Rogier van der Weyden's Crucifixtion in a Church, c 1445, center of
> Altar of the Seven Sacraments, the woman behind the cross appears to
> have a "plaid" lining to her over-dress.  (The plaid is very open, so
> could be considered a check?)  Has anyone seen anything similar in
> other paintings?  I always associate plaids with Scotland, of course.

I don't know if you're looking at an online version (which is likely to be
misleading) but if you can get your hands on a very good print, you'll see
that the lining is fur, and the squarish design comes from the pattern of
the pelts that make up the fur. This is a pretty standard way of depicting
certain furs made up of rows of two-toned small pelts, and it's not the
first time I've heard someone say the pattern looked like plaid or checks,
especially in an online version or a poor reproduction.

In the right wing of that same painting, in the part depicting the
sacrament of marriage, you can see the bride has sleeves lined with the
same sort of fur, and there's a tiny line at her hem showing the stripey
pattern.

That triptych is loaded with wonderful costume details -- seams for grande
assiette sleeves on a youth, V-necks with lacing showing, wonderful stuff.
Some details are deliberately "foreign" or allegorical, particularly on
major characters, but many of the minor figures appear to be good
representations. I saw the painting in Brussels but took only a few
photos, I think because it was positioned or lit in such a way as to make
photographing awkward that day. But I have some great art-book
reproductions that show as much as my camera would have caught.

--Robin


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From: KATHRYN WOLTERS <albrakat7@yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: [h-cost] Early plaid?
To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
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I had a bit of a surprise the first time I examined closely the fabric on the Spanish  Infanta Clara Eugenia's white and gold spanish , in the portrait by Soponisba Anguissola in the Prado --dated 1578. It looks to be a white on white woven plaid:) 
Albra

"Saragrace T. Knauf" <saragrace@earthlink.net> wrote:
There have been some plaids found as far away as China-they were found on
'white' (as opposed to Asian mummies). I don't remember how old they
were...but I think they were earlier. I was surprised to find some plaids
and checks on Flemish men's 'pants'. It was a little later and the artists
depiction of them were 'loose', where as the realism in the rest of the
painting was more definite, in this painting it looked as if they had been
put in in a hurry. 

I know there are others on this list with stronger textile backgrounds and
will be able to provide more specific dates. I think in general though the
checks and plaids were an easy extension of stripes in the weaving process
and were fairly ubiquitous.

-----Original Message-----
From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com] On
Behalf Of Nancy Kiel
Sent: Sunday, August 31, 2003 3:11 PM
To: h-costume@indra.com
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Early plaid?

In Rogier van der Weyden's Crucifixtion in a Church, c 1445, center of Altar

of the Seven Sacraments, the woman behind the cross appears to have a 
"plaid" lining to her over-dress. (The plaid is very open, so could be 
considered a check?) Has anyone seen anything similar in other paintings? 
I always associate plaids with Scotland, of course.



Nancy Kiel
nancy_kiel@hotmail.com
Never tease a weasel!
This is very good advice.
For the weasel will not like it
And teasing isn't nice.

_________________________________________________________________
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From: "Wanda Pease" <wandap@hevanet.com>
To: "Historical Costume" <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: RE: [h-cost] Early plaid?
Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 16:51:43 -0700
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I was just going through pictures taken in Pisa about 15 years ago.  There
are a series of scenes painted in the 1400's showing the results of the
black death.  In one scene is a man lying on his back with his soul (baby)
coming out of his mouth.  He is wearing a cream and shades of brown plaid,
not check, long outfit (gown).  This is definitely not a check, nor is it
fur.  I think I can scan it in if necessary.   Also, in the upper left
section of the set of paintings by Lorenzetti, Ambrogio (Italian, approx.
1285-1348) scenes from the Life of St. Nicholas, you will see a man who
looks as though he has a plaid gown with a "Robin Hood" hat on (the
remastered cut of the Errol Flynn Robin Hood is presently playing here in
Portland and the influence is leaking into my computer :-)

There isn't any "secret" to weaving plaid (as we presently call the fabric
in the US).  It doesn't seem to have been particularly popular in clothing
for aristocrats.

Regina Romsey

> -----Original Message-----
> From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com]On
> Behalf Of Robin Netherton
> Sent: Sunday, August 31, 2003 4:14 PM
> To: Historical Costume
> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Early plaid?
>
>
>
> On Sun, 31 Aug 2003, Nancy Kiel wrote:
>
> > In Rogier van der Weyden's Crucifixtion in a Church, c 1445, center of
> > Altar of the Seven Sacraments, the woman behind the cross appears to
> > have a "plaid" lining to her over-dress.  (The plaid is very open, so
> > could be considered a check?)  Has anyone seen anything similar in
> > other paintings?  I always associate plaids with Scotland, of course.
>
> I don't know if you're looking at an online version (which is likely to be
> misleading) but if you can get your hands on a very good print, you'll see
> that the lining is fur, and the squarish design comes from the pattern of
> the pelts that make up the fur. This is a pretty standard way of depicting
> certain furs made up of rows of two-toned small pelts, and it's not the
> first time I've heard someone say the pattern looked like plaid or checks,
> especially in an online version or a poor reproduction.
>
> In the right wing of that same painting, in the part depicting the
> sacrament of marriage, you can see the bride has sleeves lined with the
> same sort of fur, and there's a tiny line at her hem showing the stripey
> pattern.
>
> That triptych is loaded with wonderful costume details -- seams for grande
> assiette sleeves on a youth, V-necks with lacing showing, wonderful stuff.
> Some details are deliberately "foreign" or allegorical, particularly on
> major characters, but many of the minor figures appear to be good
> representations. I saw the painting in Brussels but took only a few
> photos, I think because it was positioned or lit in such a way as to make
> photographing awkward that day. But I have some great art-book
> reproductions that show as much as my camera would have caught.
>
> --Robin
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
>
>


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> There have been some plaids found as far away as China-they were found on
> 'white' (as opposed to Asian mummies).  I don't remember how old they
> were...but I think they were earlier.  

Bronze age.  The mummies were found in the Tarim basin, along the silk
road, and there are a couple of books about them.  One (with pretty good
colour pictures) is by Elizabeth Wayland Barber... I know Amazon knows 
about it so you can search for it there if you need more details.

> I know there are others on this list with stronger textile backgrounds and
> will be able to provide more specific dates.  I think in general though the
> checks and plaids were an easy extension of stripes in the weaving process
> and were fairly ubiquitous.

As far as I know, yes.  I know there are a number of prehistoric plaids,
and that they can be found in various cultures during the middle ages
(including Italian and middle eastern, but interestingly enough probably
not scottish).

K.
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From: Katy Bishop <vintage@shore.net>
To: Kim Baird <kbaird@cableone.net>
Subject: RE: [h-cost] 1885 dress pattern? Books?
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This polonaise dress is also fun for the 1880's and really super easy to
make (except for the ruffles on the skirt, they take a long time, but
you can leave them off).  I've made it several times (I also have an
original 1880's pattern that is almost identical to this with just an
apron front not split front overskirt that I've made too).

http://www.pastpatterns.com/904.html

Katy

On Sun, 31 Aug 2003, Kim Baird wrote:

>The patterns are in two pieces because the dresses were almost always in
>2 pieces!
>
>There is one pattern for a one-piece dress:
>http://www.pastpatterns.com/903.html
>
>Kim
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com]
>On Behalf Of Deredere Galbraith
>Sent: Sunday, August 31, 2003 4:52 AM
>To: H-Costume
>Subject: [h-cost] 1885 dress pattern? Books?
>
>  Hi,
>
>I was looking at some websites for patterns for a 1885 dress but I can
>only find seperate patterns, like a bodice pattern, skirt pattern.....
>And if I calculate the price for a complete dress it will cost about
>$90.
>Are there any books with patterns for dresses?
>At least someting less expensive than buying al those seperate patterns.
>I have Janet Arnolds patterns of fashion but find the patterns difficult
>
>to understand.
>
>And I foud some booktitles and I was wondering wich of those are worth
>buying
>
>Full-Colored Victorian Fashions
>Joanne Olian
>
>The History of Underclothes
><http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0486271242/lyndaslostleaves>
>C. Willett Cunnington
><http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-handle-url/index=books&field-a
>uthor=Cunnington%2C%20C.%20Willett/103-5524798-1515819>,
>Phillis Cunnington
><http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-handle-url/index=books&field-a
>uthor=Cunnington%2C%20Phillis/103-5524798-1515819>,
>Phyllis Cunnington
><http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-handle-url/index=books&field-a
>uthor=Cunnington%2C%20Phyllis/103-5524798-1515819>
>
>
>LA Mode Illustree : Fashion Plates in Full Color
><http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0486298191/lyndaslostleaves>
>Florence Leniston
>
>Metropolitan Fashions of the 1880s: From the 1885 Butterick Catalog
>
>Victorian Fashions 1880-1890 Vol 1
><http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0875883095/lyndaslostleaves>
>
>Greetings,
>        Deredere
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Katy Bishop, Vintage Victorian
vintage@shore.net                www.VintageVictorian.com
     Custom reproduction gowns of the Victorian Era.
      Publisher of the Vintage Dress Series books.

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Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 23:54:36 EDT
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Early plaid?
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In a message dated 8/31/2003 6:38:15 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
kbaird@cableone.net writes:

> I don't know how popular they were in the 1400's, but plaids have
> existed since at least 2000 BC
> 

That's kinda what I was guessing....I mean it being a simple idea and a 
pattern that can be made by a simple weave. The surprising thing is why they aren't 
MORE popular than they seem to have been.
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To: Historical Costume <h-costume@indra.com>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Early plaid?
References: <HGEEKKPFPKOJBDPGKLOCAEHEHGAA.wandap@hevanet.com>
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And there's at least one piece of plaid (a sleeve? book is living at a
friend's house at the moment) in the MoL Textiles book--IIRC, some of
the color was from madder?
--sue

Wanda Pease wrote:
> 
> I was just going through pictures taken in Pisa about 15 years ago.  There
> are a series of scenes painted in the 1400's showing the results of the
> black death.  In one scene is a man lying on his back with his soul (baby)
> coming out of his mouth.  He is wearing a cream and shades of brown plaid,
> not check, long outfit (gown).  This is definitely not a check, nor is it
> fur.  I think I can scan it in if necessary.   Also, in the upper left
> section of the set of paintings by Lorenzetti, Ambrogio (Italian, approx.
> 1285-1348) scenes from the Life of St. Nicholas, you will see a man who
> looks as though he has a plaid gown with a "Robin Hood" hat on (the
> remastered cut of the Errol Flynn Robin Hood is presently playing here in
> Portland and the influence is leaking into my computer :-)
> 
> There isn't any "secret" to weaving plaid (as we presently call the fabric
> in the US).  It doesn't seem to have been particularly popular in clothing
> for aristocrats.
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